Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-fa

April 05, 2006 - April 25, 2006



From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: lexan
Especially when touched and I mean just touched by gas.She's a gonner if you get it near.Garanteed! > Dick Navratil wrote: > > One more small point on lexan. It wil crack badly with the use of > alchohol based window cleaners, Windex and such. > Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: off subject - experimental ladder plane
I remember seeing the site and seeing the plane but I don't have the site info ,sorry.No your not nuts,it's real. "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" wrote: > > > Anyone ever see a website devoted to an experimental airplane constructed out of extension ladders? I'm not making this up! I can't seem to find the site any more. > > Tom B. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: off subject - experimental ladder plane
From: "Catdesign" <Catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Date: Apr 05, 2006
http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26634#26634 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: off subject - experimental ladder plane
Date: Apr 05, 2006
I remember it. It was pretty funny -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of tmbrant1(at)netzero.com Sent: April 5, 2006 1:52 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: off subject - experimental ladder plane Anyone ever see a website devoted to an experimental airplane constructed out of extension ladders? I'm not making this up! I can't seem to find the site any more. Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: 1/8" Lexan----no heating req'd
Mike et al, I finally made my windshields from plexiglass, after I experimented with it with heat and found how easy it was. Also plexiglass is a fraction of the cost of lexan. Found out what diameter curve I needed, and made two plywood ends of that curve, and nailed a piece of scrap galvanized sheet metal around the curve. Covered the curve with an old tee shirt. Put it in an oven set at about 300f, and kept an eye on it till it started to droop. Doesn't take but a few minutes. Put on a pair of cotton/cloth gloves, reach in and lay the glass down around the curve. I worried that the plexiglass would take on the texture of the cloth, but it doesn't, still crystal clear. Pull the whole thing out of the oven, and hold the glass to the shape till it cools, just a minute or two. It's truely simple to do. After perfecting the system, took the cutout windshield shapes and made the windshields. both took 10 minutes tops. Once cool it stays beautifully in shape. Just buy a piece big enough for the two pieces,cut them, and use the scraps for the practice. If anyone wants to see the form, I think it's still around somewhere for a picture. Let me know. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 1/8" Lexan----no heating req'd > > > Ken-- In the Tony Bingelis books he describes the differences between > Plexiglas and Lexan. > > Lexan can be DRILLED......cut with a SABRE saw or band saw.....and bent > all over the place without breaking. Lexan can also be filed and sanded > on the edges > without fear of cracking it. So to answer, I simply made posterboard > patterns for my windshields, transferred them to the Lexan sheet (1/8" > thick) and cut with a sabre saw, drilled with normal drill bits, sanded > the edges and bent cold to install. The Lexan of course wants to spring > flat so this puts quite a strain on your brackets and that put a strain on > my alum. cockpit/inst. panel covers which were are .025" alum. That is > why I installed the T-88 glued-in reinforcing patches under each bracket > bolt hole on the underside of my curved alum. covers. > > Plexiglass is very touchy with regard to all of these operations and must > be heated to be formed. > > Mike C. > > PS-- Lexan scratches easier...so you have to be kind to it. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Plexiglass
Walt-- good story of how you made your windshields. How did you cut and drill the Plexi sheet without cracking it ? I know Tony shows how you can grind a drill bit so it doesn't "grab" and crack the glass. I guess cutting was my worry. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Plexiglass
Mike, Yeah,by memory, regrind the bit tip so there is no angle for cutting. The bit just spins and heats up and melts thru. Ain't Life Grand! walt evans NX140DL In NJ , where we had a blinding snow storm today, with a quick 1/2" accumulation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plexiglass > > > Walt-- good story of how you made your windshields. > > How did you cut and drill the Plexi sheet without cracking it ? > > I know Tony shows how you can grind a drill bit so it doesn't "grab" and > crack the glass. I guess cutting was my worry. > > Mike C. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Plexiglass
Date: Apr 05, 2006
Hi One of the tips I learned for brass and plexiglass is to grind a slight flat on the cutting face of the drill bit. The side bevel stays the same. Nice clean non melted holes thru plastic and brass. Best regards Steve G -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plexiglass Mike, Yeah,by memory, regrind the bit tip so there is no angle for cutting. The bit just spins and heats up and melts thru. Ain't Life Grand! walt evans NX140DL In NJ , where we had a blinding snow storm today, with a quick 1/2" accumulation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plexiglass > > > Walt-- good story of how you made your windshields. > > How did you cut and drill the Plexi sheet without cracking it ? > > I know Tony shows how you can grind a drill bit so it doesn't "grab" and > crack the glass. I guess cutting was my worry. > > Mike C. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Clif Dawson's handle wraps
Thanks Mike. The top and bottom "wraps" are called Running Turks Heads. There is an excellent set of instructions in " The Marlinspike Sailor " by Hervey Garret Smith. All kinds of other neat stuff in there as well. If anyone wants the two pages I can scan them and send as attachments. Or just send them here. They're black and white so probably wouldn't take up much space. Clif > > > > Cliff--your web pages are just great and I enjoyed seeing how you > developed your teardrop/streamlined shape > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 05, 2006
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: off subject - experimental ladder plane: Pouchel.
Hello Tom, Sure, I build and fly one! Great airplane. Is the Pouchel, French design from the Flying Flea by Daniel Dalby, mine was # 3 built, got a special Diploma sent to me, only for the firsts 5 or 10 (?) built and flown. Both wings spars, the fuselage and the rudder are made from aluminum ladders. In my project, the ladder wings were tested to 10G and didnt break. Empty weight is 110 kgs (about 240 lbs) This is one page that mentions my project: http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm This is my web page (in spanish): http://aviaciondeportiva.tripod.com/ open "projectos aeronauticos" and in the right side click is the construction photo pages. The safest plane to fly... Yes was built with only $ 1,200.oo US invested including basic instruments, I also carved the propeller(s), but not including in my cost the 447 Rotax engine. Was flown first with a loaned engine, now I just finished rebuilding one used engine I bought. Hopefully will be flying one more time this summer.. Enjoy Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" wrote: Anyone ever see a website devoted to an experimental airplane constructed out of extension ladders? I'm not making this up! I can't seem to find the site any more. Tom B. --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Clif Dawson's handle wraps
From: "panhandler1956" <bowens2(at)insight.rr.com>
Date: Apr 06, 2006
Clif, I would be interested in that information. I like the your wraps too!! Great work!! -------- Brent O. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26721#26721 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Carb issues for the corvair
Fellow Pieter's: I am interested to hear what carburetors are use on the corvair conversion. It appears the NA-S3B Stromberg has been mention but having difficulties finding a good one even on E-Bay. Are there other carbs being utilized more often than others? Just looking for answers before I start my search.... Ken H. Fargo, ND --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Carb issues for the corvair
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 06, 2006
Ken, This quote from William Wynne's site: -There are four different carburetors that dominate the field of flying Corvairs. These are divided among two applications: gravity feed fuel systems (most high wing airplanes and low wing airplanes with header tanks) and pressure fuel systems (mostly seen in low wing airplanes without header tanks). If you are using a gravity feed fuel system, you can use any of the four popular carburetors. These carbs are the Ellison EFS-3A, Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA, Stromberg NAS-3, and Monnett Aero-Carb. If you have a pressure fuel system, like a 601XL or a KR-2 without a header tank, then you should be using an EFS-3A or an MA3-SPA. The Corvair runs well on all of these carbs. Bill Clapp's KR-2S has nearly 300 hours on an Aero-Carb. Mark Langford's and Steve Makish's KRs both run on Ellison EFS-3As. Dave The Bear's Wagabond and the Skycoupe both fly on Strombergs. Our 601 and the Cleanex both have MA3s. Ellison Fluid Systems sells the EFS-3A. And the Monnett family is the only place to get an Aero-Carb. Either of these carbs fit on a single model of our CNC stainless intake manifold. Alternatively, the Stromberg and MA3 both fit on a slightly different manifold we make. All of the carburetors except the MA3 require a primer. We weld a single primer port in the up tube on the right hand side of the intake manifold. This is common practice on certified engines. The MA3-SPA's accelerator pump makes a primer unnecessary.- My comments: All of the above are either hard to find or expensive (or both). I choose to go with a Zenith Carburetor as used on the larger VW conversions. You can buy them at: http://www.greatplainsas.com/sccarb.html They call them 1821 carburetors after the VW engine conversion they represent. The Zenith designation is # 267 see at: http://www.zenithfuelsystems.com/updraft_267.htm It gives me about 2800 RPM static and about 3000 WOT flying Although I fly most of the time at about 70 Mph which is less than 1/4 throttle (2200 RPM) I did remove the choke, have a primer on the LH intake manifold a home made carb heat box. Hans "Kenneth M. Heide" Pietenpol Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Carb issues for the corvair 04/06/2006 12:49 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Fellow Pieter's: I am interested to hear what carburetors are use on the corvair conversion. It appears the NA-S3B Stromberg has been mention but having difficulties finding a good one even on E-Bay. Are there other carbs being utilized more often than others? Just looking for answers before I start my search.... Ken H. Fargo, ND rates. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: Carb issues for the corvair
I use the Zenith on my 1/2 vw and you can't get much simpler than that carb. Hans Vander Voort wrote: > > > Ken, > > This quote from William Wynne's site: > > -There are four different carburetors that dominate the field of flying > Corvairs. These are divided among two applications: gravity feed fuel > systems (most high wing airplanes and low wing airplanes with header tanks) > and pressure fuel systems (mostly seen in low wing airplanes without header > tanks). If you are using a gravity feed fuel system, you can use any of the > four popular carburetors. These carbs are the Ellison EFS-3A, Marvel > Schebler MA3-SPA, Stromberg NAS-3, and Monnett Aero-Carb. If you have a > pressure fuel system, like a 601XL or a KR-2 without a header tank, then > you should be using an EFS-3A or an MA3-SPA. The Corvair runs well on all > of these carbs. Bill Clapp's KR-2S has nearly 300 hours on an Aero-Carb. > Mark Langford's and Steve Makish's KRs both run on Ellison EFS-3As. Dave > The Bear's Wagabond and the Skycoupe both fly on Strombergs. Our 601 and > the Cleanex both have MA3s. > Ellison Fluid Systems sells the EFS-3A. And the Monnett family is the only > place to get an Aero-Carb. Either of these carbs fit on a single model of > our CNC stainless intake manifold. Alternatively, the Stromberg and MA3 > both fit on a slightly different manifold we make. All of the carburetors > except the MA3 require a primer. We weld a single primer port in the up > tube on the right hand side of the intake manifold. This is common practice > on certified engines. The MA3-SPA's accelerator pump makes a primer > unnecessary.- > > My comments: > > All of the above are either hard to find or expensive (or both). > I choose to go with a Zenith Carburetor as used on the larger VW > conversions. > You can buy them at: http://www.greatplainsas.com/sccarb.html > They call them 1821 carburetors after the VW engine conversion they > represent. > > The Zenith designation is # 267 see at: > http://www.zenithfuelsystems.com/updraft_267.htm > > It gives me about 2800 RPM static and about 3000 WOT flying > Although I fly most of the time at about 70 Mph which is less than 1/4 > throttle (2200 RPM) > I did remove the choke, have a primer on the LH intake manifold a home > made carb heat box. > > Hans > > > "Kenneth M. > Heide" > .com> Pietenpol > Sent by: > owner-pietenpol-l cc > ist-server@matron > ics.com Subject > Pietenpol-List: Carb issues for the > corvair > 04/06/2006 12:49 > PM > > > Please respond to > pietenpol-list@ma > tronics.com > > > > Fellow Pieter's: > > I am interested to hear what carburetors are use on the corvair conversion. > It appears the NA-S3B Stromberg has been mention but having difficulties > finding a good one even on E-Bay. Are there other carbs being utilized more > often than others? Just looking for answers before I start my search.... > > Ken H. > Fargo, ND > > rates. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 06, 2006
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Carb issues for the corvair
Ken, The Marvel MA3-SPA shows up periodically on eBay. After watching for about 3 months, I got one for around $100 (it's been a while, don't recall the exact price; William jokingly offered me $5 more than I paid for it sight unseen - I think he prefers it over the other models he recommends, with perhaps the exception of the Aero-carb, which he also holds in high regard ). It needs a rebuild, which will probably run around $350 if I buy the parts & get help from the guy in our EAA chapter that owns a machine shop. Kip Gardner >Fellow Pieter's: > >I am interested to hear what carburetors are use on the corvair >conversion. It appears the NA-S3B Stromberg has been mention but >having difficulties finding a good one even on E-Bay. Are there >other carbs being utilized more often than others? Just looking for >answers before I start my search.... > >Ken H. >Fargo, ND > > ><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>PC-to-Phone >call rates. -- North Canton, OH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Clif Dawson's handle wraps
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 07, 2006
Clif, Could you post those pages or email them to me. I'd like to see how they're done. Thanks! -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=26840#26840 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 07, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Experimental Certification Kit from EAA
This looks like a pretty good thing to have if anyone out there is getting close to needing certification---- Mike C. http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/060330_cert_kit.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <dj(at)veghdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Carb issues for the corvair
Date: Apr 07, 2006
forgot to mention I had an AeroCarb and hated it. It stuck often and leaked fuel. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth M. Heide To: Pietenpol Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb issues for the corvair Fellow Pieter's: I am interested to hear what carburetors are use on the corvair conversion. It appears the NA-S3B Stromberg has been mention but having difficulties finding a good one even on E-Bay. Are there other carbs being utilized more often than others? Just looking for answers before I start my search.... Ken H. Fargo, ND ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "DJ Vegh" <dj(at)veghdesign.com>
Subject: Re: Carb issues for the corvair
Date: Apr 07, 2006
I have an NAS-3A1 on mine. works GREAT! I get about 2950 static with my 66x29 prop DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth M. Heide To: Pietenpol Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb issues for the corvair Fellow Pieter's: I am interested to hear what carburetors are use on the corvair conversion. It appears the NA-S3B Stromberg has been mention but having difficulties finding a good one even on E-Bay. Are there other carbs being utilized more often than others? Just looking for answers before I start my search.... Ken H. Fargo, ND ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2006
From: "Kirk Huizenga" <Kirk.Huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org>
Subject: Experimental Certification Kit from EAA
I just got mine in the mail a few days ago. It should be very helpful. It has 14 page booklet with 4 pages dedicated to a fairly detailed checklist of things to do and forms to be filled out in the certification process. The rest of the pages are sample forms and letters that will likely be used in the process. There is also a packet that contains all the FAA forms that you might need. Obviously, you can pick these up or have them sent to you from a FSDO, but it is nice to get them all togethe in the packet. You'll also find a data plate for engraving serial number and such as well as a large "Experimental" sticker that you won't need to apply on your Piet if using a X in the N-number (which is talked about in the booklet). Finally, there is a sheet of placards and warnings that you can use on your panel (like the "scare your passenger" warning) I think the booklet is the most helpful as it clearly lays out the process of certification, which, I admit, is a bit daunting initially. Nice thing is that you can use the booklet over and over for your next projects :) Happy to have Spring springing Kirk now a two plane, one car family ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 08, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: wanted: intake spider for 0200 Continental
Anyone know of one, please let me know. thanks walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2006
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
Hi All, I'm building a Pietenpol and have welded up a motor mount per Pietenpol plans. In WW's book he talks about stress testing the motormount. I'm not clear if he is talking about new designs, or just to stress test your particular welding skills. My mount turned out pretty nice, but I'm far from a professional welder. My mount was welded up right on the firewall and turned out very true and straight, meaning all the holes line up easily. I'm curious how many of you have stress tested your motor mounts. This subject keeps coming to me at 2AM. I saw the quote "Nature can always find the hidden flaw" somewhere the other day, and it sure makes you want to pay attention to the details. Ben Charvet Mims, Fl ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How many Piets are flying?
From: "panhandler1956" <bowens2(at)insight.rr.com>
Date: Apr 09, 2006
Does anyone happen to have an estimate on how many Pietenpols are out there? I looked in the archives and couldn't find anything. Maybe a search of the FAA registration website (by someone smarter than me) would give us a clue. Of course that wouldn't account for all the international Piets. It would just be interesting to know. Any ideas? -------- Brent O. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27132#27132 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Launchpad" <launchpad(at)chartermi.net>
Subject: Building logs???
Date: Apr 09, 2006
Greeting to all, Well I am about to start building and I was wondering if anyone knows of a builders logbook for the computer? Also curious what sort of building logs everyone keeps? Are there particular guidlines of what is needed for records kept and when I need to have inspections, ect.. So much to learn. For the record, I have waited several years so that I am 100% certain that I will complete this project after I start. I noticed an awful large number of builders that have there work for sale. I wanted to be sure I would not lose interests. All these years and I am all pumped up... Brian, Brighton Michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2006
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Building logs???
Welcome, Brian There are no specific regulations that I know of about building logs, other than they have to document what work you did yourself to establish that you meet the 51% requirement for homebuilts. This definitely isn't a problem for a Pietenpol. I'm just keeping a written log by date of what I have accomplished. There are software programs available on a web-based format to purchase, like Kitlog Pro at kitlog.com, or you can just use the free program on mykitplane.com like I do. Just go to mykitplane.com and follow the links to builders logs, pietenpol, and you'll find several builders including me. If you haven't already, get involved with your local EAA chapter and they can hook you up with a Technical Advisor that will do periodic inspections along the way (for free). These are the folks that will keep you out of trouble, as the FAA only looks at the completed project. Joining the EAA also gives you access to their homebuilder area on their website that has lots of useful tips on building, registering, and test-flying your homebuilt. In reference to the multiple projects for sale, you have to know going in that this is a long-term project, and people's life situation and motivations can change over a period of 5-10 years. I'm not retired and only can work on my project a few hours a week. I've been building about 1.5 years, and have my fuselage on the landing gear, my motor mount built, and my wing ribs made. I realistically have at least 3 more years to go. I'm sure others will chime in with the advise to do something on the project every day, even if it just to sit in the cockpit for a few minutes making airplane noises. The longer you stay away, the harder it is to forget where you left off, and the easier for your priorities in life to readjust..... Hang in there, Ben Charvet Mims, Fl Launchpad wrote: > Greeting to all, > Well I am about to start building and I was wondering if anyone knows > of a builders logbook for the computer? Also curious what sort of > building logs everyone keeps? Are there particular guidlines of what > is needed for records kept and when I need to have inspections, ect.. > So much to learn. > For the record, I have waited several years so that I am 100% certain > that I will complete this project after I start. I noticed an awful > large number of builders that have there work for sale. I wanted to be > sure I would not lose interests. All these years and I am all pumped up... > Brian, Brighton Michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Lyscars" <alyscars(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Stromberg Supplement
Date: Apr 09, 2006
Gents, I was able to buy an affordable NA-S3A1 at SNF this week. Does anybody have the Bendix Overhaul Supplement for carb. part # 380174-1? I've got a photocopy of a supplement for carb # 380174-2, but I don't trust it for my new (old) carb. Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 09, 2006
Subject: Intake spider
I've got lot's of 'em in my basement workshop -- the eight-legged variety! They'd probably "Lyc" a Lycoming, too. Or even a Continental... Sorry -- couldn't resist! ; ) Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2006
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Torque Tube Pulleys
Hello all, I have a question regarding the alignment of the pulleys on the torque tube; two side by side, and one by the aileron horn. According to the prints, the single pulley is centered on the tube, and the two rear pulleys are also centered on the tube. Are people aligning the single pulley with one of the rear pulleys so they are aligned and attaching the cable tab on the control arm so it is also aligned or does it not matter to do this? Also, depending on how the wing gets located above the fuselage, my aileron cables (from torque tube horn to spar pulleys) will be at some angle. Have people found where the optimal location to mount the aileron horn is, or is the dimension (14-1/2" from pilot seat) on the print just right? I would think if the horn is too far back, the cables may interfere with the instruments, and if it's too far forward, the cables may rub on something else. I'm building a long fuselage, and am getting ready to weld the torque tube. I do not have the center section built, and the wings mounted. I could weld everything on the torque tube except the aileron horn and save that until I get a wing mounted. Thank you, John --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2006
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Pulleys
Hi John, I offset the front pulley to one side so it was aligned with one of the rear pulleys. I put a slight z bend into the tabs I welded through the rear control stick, so the tabs would align with the pulleys. Here is my picture from mykitplane.com: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=979&PlaneID=481. I haven't installed my center section yet either, but my control horn is within an inch or two of the front seatback, so I don't anticipate any problems with interfering with instruments. Ben John Egan wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a question regarding the alignment of the pulleys on the torque > tube; two side by side, and one by the aileron horn. According to the > prints, the single pulley is centered on the tube, and the two rear > pulleys are also centered on the tube. > > Are people aligning the single pulley with one of the rear pulleys so > they are aligned and attaching the cable tab on the control arm so it > is also aligned or does it not matter to do this? > > Also, depending on how the wing gets located above the fuselage, my > aileron cables (from torque tube horn to spar pulleys) will be at some > angle. Have people found where the optimal location to mount the > aileron horn is, or is the dimension (14-1/2" from pilot seat) on the > print just right? I would think if the horn is too far back, the > cables may interfere with the instruments, and if it's too far > forward, the cables may rub on something else. > > I'm building a long fuselage, and am getting ready to weld the torque > tube. I do not have the center section built, and the wings mounted. > I could weld everything on the torque tube except the aileron horn and > save that until I get a wing mounted. > > Thank you, > John > > > > > rates starting at 1/min. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Torque Tube Pulleys
Date: Apr 09, 2006
John asks- >Have people found where the optimal location to mount the aileron horn is, >or is the dimension (14-1/2" from pilot seat) on the print just right? >I would think if the horn is too far back, the cables may interfere with >the >instruments, and if it's too far forward, the cables may rub on something >else. John, take a look at this page: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/piets3.html down where you see a picture of the instrument panel and rear cockpit. Notice where the horn is located relative to the plywood bulkhead that forms the back of the passenger seat. If you go much further forward, you'll be in the plywood bulkhead and framing. If you go much further aft, you'll be in the instruments. If you go on down on that same page, there is a shot looking up underneath the instrument panel and you'll see what I mean; that picture is only showing the two engine instruments, which aren't nearly as deep as the flight instruments above them. And the last picture on that page shows a pretty good closeup of the horn on the torque tube. It's mounted about as far forward as it can go, and that's pretty much where it needs to be. "Build it to the plans" unless the plans aren't clear, then just ask and you'll get answers from some mighty savvy guys here, like Walt Evans, Mike Cuy, Chuck Gantzer, and others. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 09, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Intake spider
If they're big ones, leave em alone! If they're teeny weeny ones, clean em out! Or invite bigger spiders in and the nasty little ones will leave. Clif I've got lot's of 'em in my basement workshop -- the eight-legged variety! They'd probably "Lyc" a Lycoming, too. Or even a Continental... Sorry -- couldn't resist! ; ) Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Torque Tube Pulleys
Date: Apr 09, 2006
I offset my single pulley just slightly to the left and offset the two to the left so the right pulley is more inline with the cable coming off the stick. There is a slight angle between the front pulley and the back left pulley, the back left being further away from centerline then the front. I put the aileron horn where the plans show it. Never see anyone complain about it being located as shown on the plans. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: John Egan To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 4:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Pulleys Hello all, I have a question regarding the alignment of the pulleys on the torque tube; two side by side, and one by the aileron horn. According to the prints, the single pulley is centered on the tube, and the two rear pulleys are also centered on the tube. Are people aligning the single pulley with one of the rear pulleys so they are aligned and attaching the cable tab on the control arm so it is also aligned or does it not matter to do this? Also, depending on how the wing gets located above the fuselage, my aileron cables (from torque tube horn to spar pulleys) will be at some angle. Have people found where the optimal location to mount the aileron horn is, or is the dimension (14-1/2" from pilot seat) on the print just right? I would think if the horn is too far back, the cables may interfere with the instruments, and if it's too far forward, the cables may rub on something else. I'm building a long fuselage, and am getting ready to weld the torque tube. I do not have the center section built, and the wings mounted. I could weld everything on the torque tube except the aileron horn and save that until I get a wing mounted. Thank you, John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 09, 2006
Subject: Re: How many Piets are flying?
In a message dated 4/9/2006 9:38:59 AM Central Standard Time, bowens2(at)insight.rr.com writes: Does anyone happen to have an estimate on how many Pietenpols are out there? I looked in the archives and couldn't find anything. Maybe a search of the FAA registration website (by someone smarter than me) would give us a clue. Of course that wouldn't account for all the international Piets. It would just be interesting to know. Any ideas? -------- Brent O. Doc Mosher did some extensive research a few years ago, and put out a booklet he calls 'Pietenpol Owner Directory'. He listed the ones from U.S.A., Great Britian, Canada, and South Africa. There must be 600 to 800 listed in there. Really a great little booklet, with lots of pictures, and illustrations. He was selling them for $5 or $10 bucks, but I don't know if he has any more. He goes to Brodhead every year, and I think he still monitors this list. He is a retired Airline Captain...you'll have to let him explain why they call him 'Doc'. He's a great guy to talk with, has a wonderful sense of humor, and absolutely loves old airplanes, especially the Pietenpol. He once told me my plane had the most aft C.G. of any Pietenpol he's ever seen...then he pointed to the last two digits in my N-number. :) His e-mail is - docshop(at)TDS.net Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: nose fuel tank
Date: Apr 09, 2006
Hey all I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There are several pages of tanks and fittings. They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: wanted: intake spider for 0200 Continental
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I think I've got an extra one for an A65. Are they the same part? Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 6:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wanted: intake spider for 0200 Continental Anyone know of one, please let me know. thanks walt evans NX140DL Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: nose fuel tank
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Egan, John" <jegan(at)kcc.com>
Polyethylene Fuel Tank: I recently looked at one of these at a local store and thought it may make a good Piet tank. A person would have to have an access panel in the cowl to fill the tank, they could probably install a cork float on the top of the tank for a capacity indicator (to keep it simple), and I was wondering how to adapt the red polyethylene tank into a gravity feed system where the fuel runs out the bottom with out leaking. Any thoughts on this=3F I think the tank I looked at was the 14.5 gallon (11-1/4" x 28-1/2" x 15-3/4") and it cost something like $25. It was a rugged tank. Here in Wisconsin, they sell these at the "Farm n' Fleet" stores. ________________________________ =46rom: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Hey all I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There are several pages of tanks and fittings. They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com Dick N. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: hvandervoo(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
Ben, I spoke about this with William about two years ago, his comment was that the original Pietenpol motor mount is way over designed. The WW motor mounts are much lighter and should be tested. Of course it does not hurt to do a simple test on the original Pietenpol design. I made a test stand (to test run and break in the engine) utilizing the motor mount. With motor mounted (250 LBs) and added weight of another 250 it did not break. ( 2 G's) Did this before and after break in period. Keep in mind that engine vibration can be much more harmful than a plain static load. Engine mount should be inspected every change you get, I inspect it every time I have the cowling off. Another tip, paint the motor mount white, if a welding crack develops it will show better. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts? Hi All, I'm building a Pietenpol and have welded up a motor mount per Pietenpol plans. In WW's book he talks about stress testing the motormount. I'm not clear if he is talking about new designs, or just to stress test your particular welding skills. My mount turned out pretty nice, but I'm far from a professional welder. My mount was welded up right on the firewall and turned out very true and straight, meaning all the holes line up easily. I'm curious how many of you have stress tested your motor mounts. This subject keeps coming to me at 2AM. I saw the quote "Nature can always find the hidden flaw" somewhere the other day, and it sure makes you want to pay attention to the details. Ben Charvet Mims, Fl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
Hello Ben I was thinking of building a Corvair engine test stand that I can bolt my motor mount to as you have done. If you have any pictures of yours I would appreciate seeing them to help me design mine. I will be tig welding my test stand. Also, what kind of material did you use (or would you recommend) to build it? Thank you Rick Holland On 4/10/06, hvandervoo(at)aol.com wrote: > > Ben, > > I spoke about this with William about two years ago, his comment was that > the original Pietenpol motor mount is way over designed. > The WW motor mounts are much lighter and should be tested. > > Of course it does not hurt to do a simple test on the original Pietenpoldesign. > > I made a test stand (to test run and break in the engine) utilizing the > motor mount. > With motor mounted (250 LBs) and added weight of another 250 it did not > break. ( 2 G's) > Did this before and after break in period. > > Keep in mind that engine vibration can be much more harmful than a plain > static load. > Engine mount should be inspected every change you get, I inspect it every > time I have the cowling off. > > Another tip, paint the motor mount white, if a welding crack develops it > will show better. > > Hans > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net> > To: Corvair engines for homebuilt aircraft ; > pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts? > > > > > Hi All, > > I'm building a Pietenpol and have welded up a motor mount per Pietenpolplans. In > WW's book he talks about stress testing the motormount. I'm not clear if > he is talking about new designs, or just to stress test your particular > welding skills. My mount turned out pretty nice, but I'm far from a > professional welder. My mount was welded up right on the firewall and turned > out very true and straight, meaning a > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: nose fuel tank
Could probably get some ideas by looking at the poly tanks that come with most Ultralights, (and looking through the ultralight parts catalogs) they have used these type of tanks for years. On 4/10/06, Egan, John wrote: > > Polyethylene Fuel Tank: I recently looked at one of these at a local > store and thought it may make a good Piet tank. A person would have to have > an access panel in the cowl to fill the tank, they could probably install a > cork float on the top of the tank for a capacity indicator (to keep it > simple), and I was wondering how to adapt the red polyethylene tank into a > gravity feed system where the fuel runs out the bottom with out leaking. > Any thoughts on this? I think the tank I looked at was the 14.5 gallon > (11-1/4" x 28-1/2" x 15-3/4") and it cost something like $25. It was a > rugged tank. Here in Wisconsin, they sell these at the "Farm n' Fleet" > stores. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dick Navratil > *Sent:* Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:17 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank > > > Hey all > > I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds > like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of > fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the > Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; > > 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 > > 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 > > These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There > are several pages of tanks and fittings. > > They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com > > Dick N. > > ------------------------------ > > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. > ------------------------------ > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: off subject - experimental ladder plane
They have one in a hanger in Broadhead. You have to be a fairly small person to fit in one from what I heard. http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm On 4/5/06, tmbrant1(at)netzero.com wrote: > > tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> > > Anyone ever see a website devoted to an experimental airplane constructed > out of extension ladders? I'm not making this up! I can't seem to find the > site any more. > > Tom B. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: off subject - experimental ladder plane
You think that's funny, check you this seaplane at SNF. Its built from a regular old aluminum fishing boat. Has a plastic lawn chair bolted down for a seat, even retractable gear. On 4/5/06, tmbrant1(at)netzero.com wrote: > > tmbrant1(at)netzero.net> > > Anyone ever see a website devoted to an experimental airplane constructed > out of extension ladders? I'm not making this up! I can't seem to find the > site any more. > > Tom B. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: nose fuel tank
Date: Apr 10, 2006
The advantage to the tanks I was looking at is there is a fuel fill neck installed. An extension filler hose could be installed. Also, an electric fuel level sensor is already installed. You could install a small battery to power it and handheld. Picking up fuel from the top of the tank might be added safety. If there is a leak in the line inside of the firewall, fuel would not flow. Better to have the engine quit than fill the cockpit with fuel with the engine running. Only my opinion. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Egan, John To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:50 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Polyethylene Fuel Tank: I recently looked at one of these at a local store and thought it may make a good Piet tank. A person would have to have an access panel in the cowl to fill the tank, they could probably install a cork float on the top of the tank for a capacity indicator (to keep it simple), and I was wondering how to adapt the red polyethylene tank into a gravity feed system where the fuel runs out the bottom with out leaking. Any thoughts on this? I think the tank I looked at was the 14.5 gallon (11-1/4" x 28-1/2" x 15-3/4") and it cost something like $25. It was a rugged tank. Here in Wisconsin, they sell these at the "Farm n' Fleet" stores. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:17 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Hey all I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There are several pages of tanks and fittings. They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com Dick N. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Kenneth M. Heide" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Stromberg Carb
Members of the list: I have a question concerning the rebuilding of my stromberg carb. Can anyone tell me if I should jet and resize the venturi according to the engine displacement? I was informed to jet the carb and replace the venturi for the engine HP when rebuilding the carb. Then again, I understand the logical aspects about why my mechanic is asking for displacement information in order to make the correct settings for the carb/engine courtship. However, what are some of the recommendations for the jetting and venturi set-ups? Several calls to the WW hangar go unreturned.......Hello?.....anybody home! Ken Fargo, ND Where the movie failed and the money went missing...... --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
Now that I've re-read Williams article on testing the motor mount, I think I can make a simple horizontal platform for my mount out of plywood and 2X4 lumber that I can bolt the mount to, then make a lever with the 90degree arm. with the 10:1 ratio. He suggests a 2500 pound pull, which would be 10G's. Seems like if I ever pulled 10 G's in a Piet the wings would come off before the engine fell off. Anyway I'll do some sort of testing , up to 5 G's before test flying. I painted the mount with a nice hardened acrylic enamel (white)over the weekend. Thanks for all the advice. I'll sleep better now. Ben > > I spoke about this with William about two years ago, his comment > was that the original Pietenpol motor mount is way over designed. > The WW motor mounts are much lighter and should be tested. > > Of course it does not hurt to do a simple test on the original > Pietenpol design. > > I made a test stand (to test run and break in the engine) > utilizing the motor mount. > With motor mounted (250 LBs) and added weight of another 250 it > did not break. ( 2 G's) > Did this before and after break in period. > > Keep in mind that engine vibration can be much more harmful than a > plain static load. > Engine mount should be inspected every change you get, I inspect > it every time I have the cowling off. > > Another tip, paint the motor mount white, if a welding crack > develops it will show better. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: nose fuel tank
Dick There are a couple of things that I would challenge you to think about. First of all is the fact that unless the fuel is drawn from the lowest part in the tank, you will be carrying around fuel which you can not use in any situation. That might not seem like much till you run into weather one afternoon and need that fuel to get to your second alternate. Yes if you had a MAJOR fuel leak that might happen. The more likely situation though would be that it would start with a small drip at first. That would leave a smell that you should be able to detect even in an open cockpit airplane. The engine could still be shut down, but you not fate would be in control of when it quits. There might be situations that could develop where one might want to risk running the engine a minute or two longer to get to a place where it could be shutdown and a safe landing made vs having it quit over rugged terrain and have to try to land it on the side of a mountain. Finally I'd make sure I have a drain at the lowest point of the tank as well as the lowest point in the fuel system. Many is the time I have had a gas cap fail letting water in, or just condensation form enough water to create a big enough slug that an engine ingesting that at takeoff power at 300 ft would have not made for a fun day. Something to think about. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank The advantage to the tanks I was looking at is there is a fuel fill neck installed. An extension filler hose could be installed. Also, an electric fuel level sensor is already installed. You could install a small battery to power it and handheld. Picking up fuel from the top of the tank might be added safety. If there is a leak in the line inside of the firewall, fuel would not flow. Better to have the engine quit than fill the cockpit with fuel with the engine running. Only my opinion. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Egan, John To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:50 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Polyethylene Fuel Tank: I recently looked at one of these at a local store and thought it may make a good Piet tank. A person would have to have an access panel in the cowl to fill the tank, they could probably install a cork float on the top of the tank for a capacity indicator (to keep it simple), and I was wondering how to adapt the red polyethylene tank into a gravity feed system where the fuel runs out the bottom with out leaking. Any thoughts on this? I think the tank I looked at was the 14.5 gallon (11-1/4" x 28-1/2" x 15-3/4") and it cost something like $25. It was a rugged tank. Here in Wisconsin, they sell these at the "Farm n' Fleet" stores. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:17 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Hey all I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There are several pages of tanks and fittings. They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com Dick N. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: nose fuel tank
Date: Apr 10, 2006
Mark I see the point you are getting to, however, tanks that have the pickup on the top will have a tube that goes down to the bottom of the tank internally. If the line is ruptured the whole tank wont drain instantly and how does that get you closer to the runway? Don't get me wrong, these are all worthwile things to discuss. As for the point on condensation in the tank, a point well taken, just yesterday i finished a complete going over of my entire fuel system that included removing the main wing tank, cleaning installing finger strainer, replacing the fuel line to the nose header tank, cleaning out the header tank, removing and cleaning the cascolator and carb bowl. I take the annual inspection seriously for fuel. It probably causes more engine failures than anything in flight. Dick N. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Blackwell To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Dick There are a couple of things that I would challenge you to think about. First of all is the fact that unless the fuel is drawn from the lowest part in the tank, you will be carrying around fuel which you can not use in any situation. That might not seem like much till you run into weather one afternoon and need that fuel to get to your second alternate. Yes if you had a MAJOR fuel leak that might happen. The more likely situation though would be that it would start with a small drip at first. That would leave a smell that you should be able to detect even in an open cockpit airplane. The engine could still be shut down, but you not fate would be in control of when it quits. There might be situations that could develop where one might want to risk running the engine a minute or two longer to get to a place where it could be shutdown and a safe landing made vs having it quit over rugged terrain and have to try to land it on the side of a mountain. Finally I'd make sure I have a drain at the lowest point of the tank as well as the lowest point in the fuel system. Many is the time I have had a gas cap fail letting water in, or just condensation form enough water to create a big enough slug that an engine ingesting that at takeoff power at 300 ft would have not made for a fun day. Something to think about. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank The advantage to the tanks I was looking at is there is a fuel fill neck installed. An extension filler hose could be installed. Also, an electric fuel level sensor is already installed. You could install a small battery to power it and handheld. Picking up fuel from the top of the tank might be added safety. If there is a leak in the line inside of the firewall, fuel would not flow. Better to have the engine quit than fill the cockpit with fuel with the engine running. Only my opinion. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Egan, John To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:50 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Polyethylene Fuel Tank: I recently looked at one of these at a local store and thought it may make a good Piet tank. A person would have to have an access panel in the cowl to fill the tank, they could probably install a cork float on the top of the tank for a capacity indicator (to keep it simple), and I was wondering how to adapt the red polyethylene tank into a gravity feed system where the fuel runs out the bottom with out leaking. Any thoughts on this? I think the tank I looked at was the 14.5 gallon (11-1/4" x 28-1/2" x 15-3/4") and it cost something like $25. It was a rugged tank. Here in Wisconsin, they sell these at the "Farm n' Fleet" stores. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:17 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Hey all I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There are several pages of tanks and fittings. They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com Dick N. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 10, 2006
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
In a message dated 4/10/2006 8:07:03 AM Central Standard Time, hvandervoo(at)aol.com writes: Keep in mind that engine vibration can be much more harmful than a plain static load. Engine mount should be inspected every change you get, I inspect it every time I have the cowling off. Another tip, paint the motor mount white, if a welding crack develops it will show better. Good advise here. I have a big magnifying glass that use to inspect my white engine mount, whenever I have the cowl off. Keep in mind, the white paint should be a very HARD Non-Flexible paint, when cured. If it is a flexible paint, it will streach over a crack, and the crack will never show up. If you have ever seen paint in the welded area of crane type equipment that has required periodic inspection (sometimes it is silver), it is called 'Crack Paint'. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Stromberg Carb
Date: Apr 10, 2006
Will Wynne is probably at Sun n Fun this week and out of touch. It started on the 3rd and goes for another day or two. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth M. Heide To: Pietenpol Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stromberg Carb Members of the list: I have a question concerning the rebuilding of my stromberg carb. Can anyone tell me if I should jet and resize the venturi according to the engine displacement? I was informed to jet the carb and replace the venturi for the engine HP when rebuilding the carb. Then again, I understand the logical aspects about why my mechanic is asking for displacement information in order to make the correct settings for the carb/engine courtship. However, what are some of the recommendations for the jetting and venturi set-ups? Several calls to the WW hangar go unreturned.......Hello?.....anybody home! Ken Fargo, ND Where the movie failed and the money went missing...... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips?
I'm pondering flying the Piet up to Brodhead this summer. I prefer to land at grass strips. Do you guys know if there are flight planning tools that allow searching for waypoints based on runway surface? Thanks, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 10, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: nose fuel tank
I see your point, but I think it would be a risk that I could manage without going into the top of the tank. That down pipe simply can not get the fuel in the bottom of the tank. Now if you did have a bit of water there, the fuel pickup would not get to it, but its still unusable fuel. That helps no one. To get that water out of the tank, you are going to need a drain. That drain has the same risk of a leak as a fuel line. Now if that fuel line did break from the bottom, it would not be fun. But when I hear fuel lines, I think metal not automotive hoses. Such a line is not going to dry out, get accidently cut very easily, and would avoid 99% of the problems associated with fuel leaks. Now that internal downward hose is going to need some sort of means to get the fuel up to get to the line. It would either need a fuel pump or some sort of means to pressurize the fuel tank. Fuel pumps are another failure mode, more connections and more possiblities of problems. Gravity has not yet failed. If you have a leak down from the pump, that fuel is now under pressure so it would spray rather than run/drip ect. Its sort of like putting your finger over the end of a water hose and see how far you can make the water/fuel spray. The weight of the fuel pump would likely be more than some metal fuel lines (I think they are stainless if my memory is correct, but honestly cant be sure) Finally a fuel leak IF the lines are run properly just might not result in a fire. Running the fuel lines below anything that might start a fire and if you get a leak, the fuel falls downward into the airflow. It would also likely give a bit of warning before the engine totally fails. You might need that engine for a minute or two to get to a cow pasture or any other safe landing place. It may not be an airport, but depending on where you happen to be it might. Finally you are far more likely to need that fuel you couldn't get to going in from the top to get yourself out of a bad situation, than you are likely to have a fuel line problem with either method of installation. I do commend your dedication in the maintenance of your fuel system. If more people paid that much attention to one of the most critical systems in the airplane their would be fewer problems. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Mark I see the point you are getting to, however, tanks that have the pickup on the top will have a tube that goes down to the bottom of the tank internally. If the line is ruptured the whole tank wont drain instantly and how does that get you closer to the runway? Don't get me wrong, these are all worthwile things to discuss. As for the point on condensation in the tank, a point well taken, just yesterday i finished a complete going over of my entire fuel system that included removing the main wing tank, cleaning installing finger strainer, replacing the fuel line to the nose header tank, cleaning out the header tank, removing and cleaning the cascolator and carb bowl. I take the annual inspection seriously for fuel. It probably causes more engine failures than anything in flight. Dick N. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Blackwell To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Dick There are a couple of things that I would challenge you to think about. First of all is the fact that unless the fuel is drawn from the lowest part in the tank, you will be carrying around fuel which you can not use in any situation. That might not seem like much till you run into weather one afternoon and need that fuel to get to your second alternate. Yes if you had a MAJOR fuel leak that might happen. The more likely situation though would be that it would start with a small drip at first. That would leave a smell that you should be able to detect even in an open cockpit airplane. The engine could still be shut down, but you not fate would be in control of when it quits. There might be situations that could develop where one might want to risk running the engine a minute or two longer to get to a place where it could be shutdown and a safe landing made vs having it quit over rugged terrain and have to try to land it on the side of a mountain. Finally I'd make sure I have a drain at the lowest point of the tank as well as the lowest point in the fuel system. Many is the time I have had a gas cap fail letting water in, or just condensation form enough water to create a big enough slug that an engine ingesting that at takeoff power at 300 ft would have not made for a fun day. Something to think about. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Navratil To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank The advantage to the tanks I was looking at is there is a fuel fill neck installed. An extension filler hose could be installed. Also, an electric fuel level sensor is already installed. You could install a small battery to power it and handheld. Picking up fuel from the top of the tank might be added safety. If there is a leak in the line inside of the firewall, fuel would not flow. Better to have the engine quit than fill the cockpit with fuel with the engine running. Only my opinion. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Egan, John To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:50 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Polyethylene Fuel Tank: I recently looked at one of these at a local store and thought it may make a good Piet tank. A person would have to have an access panel in the cowl to fill the tank, they could probably install a cork float on the top of the tank for a capacity indicator (to keep it simple), and I was wondering how to adapt the red polyethylene tank into a gravity feed system where the fuel runs out the bottom with out leaking. Any thoughts on this? I think the tank I looked at was the 14.5 gallon (11-1/4" x 28-1/2" x 15-3/4") and it cost something like $25. It was a rugged tank. Here in Wisconsin, they sell these at the "Farm n' Fleet" stores. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:17 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: nose fuel tank Hey all I was just going thru a new West Marine cataloug. They are what it sounds like, a boating supply cataloug. They have really increased the line of fuel tanks they carry. There are several that look like would work for the Piet for the nose. Here are a couple of examples; 13 gal aluminum 18.5"lx16 3/8"w x 10 3/8"h $189.99 11.5 gal polyeythelene 20"l x 14 1/4"w x 11 1/2" h $129.99 These tanks have fills, pick ups and fuel level senders installed. There are several pages of tanks and fittings. They also have online cataloug at www.westmarine.com Dick N. This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips?
Date: Apr 11, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Try a sectional chart. Seriously, that's the easiest way I know. Look at a sectional, pick a grass strip that's close to your route, then look it up on the AOPA website Airport Directory to see if they have fuel. Finding grass strips is easy. Finding grass strips with public fuel is much more difficult. Where are you coming from, Jeff? Jack Phillips Hoping to fly "Icarus Plummet" this evening after work -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips? I'm pondering flying the Piet up to Brodhead this summer. I prefer to land at grass strips. Do you guys know if there are flight planning tools that allow searching for waypoints based on runway surface? Thanks, Jeff Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol looking kit plane
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 11, 2006
Look at those performance numbers 132 Vne 106 Cruise 45 Vs1 Max ceiling 12000 ft Not low and slow. No pictures either ( are those numbers real ?) I doubt they build one themselves Some pictures on the low camper, click to enlarge (and color) nice one piece three panel wind screens. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
Good point, since most all aircraft/epoxy is flexible by design it doesn't sound like it would be the best to use. What types of paint are hard and brittle? On 4/10/06, Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/10/2006 8:07:03 AM Central Standard Time, > hvandervoo(at)aol.com writes: > > Keep in mind that engine vibration can be much more harmful than a plain > static load. > Engine mount should be inspected every change you get, I inspect it every > time I have the cowling off. > > Another tip, paint the motor mount white, if a welding crack develops it > will show better. > > Good advise here. I have a big magnifying glass that use to inspect my > white engine mount, whenever I have the cowl off. Keep in mind, the white > paint should be a very HARD Non-Flexible paint, when cured. If it is a > flexible paint, it will streach over a crack, and the crack will never show > up. If you have ever seen paint in the welded area of crane type equipment > that has required periodic inspection (sometimes it is silver), it is called > 'Crack Paint'. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2006
From: Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: off subject - experimental ladder plane
Hi Rick, Yes, you are partially right, not small (I am 6 ft tall and have space to spare for my legs) but thin. Pilot has to get betwen the ladder spars (cut off two steps). When I started building it, the first part to build (was already built:-) was the fuselage, just messure and cut the steps off to make the seat. At 72 kgs ( about 160 lbs) that time, I could barely fit, so I beguin loosing weight during the building process, until I got at 65 kgs (145) and fit perfect even with a winter jacket, also I feel lot better... Sure not an airplane for Corona drinkers :-) There is a variant of this airplane that uses two ladders as fuselage sides, that could be made to fit a bigger pilot... but not to heavy, remember is in the ultralight category and probably performance could suffer... Saludos Gary Gower Rick Holland wrote: They have one in a hanger in Broadhead. You have to be a fairly small person to fit in one from what I heard. http://www.fly5k.org/MEM/GaryPouchel/GaryGower1.htm Anyone ever see a website devoted to an experimental airplane constructed out of extension ladders? I'm not making this up! I can't seem to find the site any more. ================================================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========================= - NEW MATRONICS========================= - nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ================================================ -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Stromberg Carb
Date: Apr 11, 2006
Ken asked- >Can anyone tell me if I should jet and resize the venturi according to >the engine displacement? I was informed to jet the carb and replace >the venturi for the engine HP when rebuilding the carb. Well, you can check page 15 of the following .pdf file to see how the jetting and venturi on that carb were done on the small Continentals: http://www.aeronca.com/ServiceLetters/cont_m47_16.pdf Note that the larger venturi was used on the larger engines. The C-85 is a 188 cu. in. engine rated at a nominal 85 HP. Also, from William's FlyCorvair Q&A page: "In the interest of more power, I would suggest the larger 1 3/8" Stromberg venturi. The smaller one is effectively limited to 85 or 90hp on a Corvair." I don't believe the jetting will change. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2006
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
I used a 2 part automotive type paint that hardens enough that you can color sand it and buff it out if you want. Hopefully that is hard enough. I Ben Rick Holland wrote: > Good point, since most all aircraft/epoxy is flexible by design it > doesn't sound like it would be the best to use. What types of paint > are hard and brittle? > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 11, 2006
Subject: Re: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
In a message dated 4/11/2006 3:17:55 PM Central Standard Time, bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net writes: I used a 2 part automotive type paint that hardens enough that you can color sand it and buff it out if you want. Hopefully that is hard enough. I I believe Ben is correct, in that automotive epoxy paint is a Hard paint. Wouldn't be a good choice for a fabric airplane, unless a flex agent is used with it. I think the best way is to experiment with the paint you are planning on using, by painting a piece of sheet metal, and when it is cured, bend it and see if the paint cracks. Maybe someone else has done this research, or knows what type paint they use on the welds of crane equipment. (crack paint) Chuck G. Home Pietenpol NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" <wingding(at)usmo.com>
Subject: Re: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips?
Date: Apr 11, 2006
If you are coming up from the south of Missouri, Columbia, Ill. has a long grass strip and av gas. It is just southeast of St.Louis, Mo. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips? > > > I'm pondering flying the Piet up to Brodhead this summer. I prefer to > land at grass strips. Do you guys know if there are flight planning > tools that allow searching for waypoints based on runway surface? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 11, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips?
Thanks, Dennis. These all look like pretty interesting places! > > >If you are coming up from the south of Missouri, Columbia, Ill. has a long >grass strip and av gas. It is just southeast of St.Louis, Mo. >Dennis >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu> >To: >Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:08 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips? > > >> >> >> I'm pondering flying the Piet up to Brodhead this summer. I prefer to >> land at grass strips. Do you guys know if there are flight planning >> tools that allow searching for waypoints based on runway surface? >> >> Thanks, >> > > Jeff -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Atlanta, GA 30322 Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision http://www.molvis.org/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Sources Stock Tail wheel Spring?
Date: Apr 11, 2006
Anyone buy a tail wheel spring for the A-arm style tail wheel lately? I know the John Deer part number but I was wondering if there were any other options. Anyone know what the Price tail wheel plans call for? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Sun 'N' Fun update on Corvair website
Date: Apr 11, 2006
William Wynne has posted a post-SNF update on his website, at http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html The end of the update is a tribute to Larry Koutz. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: invitation
Date: Apr 11, 2006
Next Wed eve, April 19, I will be hosting EAA Chapter 25 monthly meeting at my hangar at Crystal Airport (MIC), in the Minneapolis, MN. area. Any and all are invited to attend. The BBQ will be on after about 6:00 pm, meeting will start at 7:00. Weather permitting, we can fire up the Rotec radial on my new project which ran for the first time today. It runs pretty smooth. I am finishing up annual on NX2RN and that one should be back together by then also. Anyone needing directions contact me off list. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Green" <mmml(at)bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Sources Stock Tail wheel Spring?
Date: Apr 12, 2006
Chris, I had one made by a spring maker a few months ago. Only cost $35 (That's Ausie money-not real money) so in the States I'm guessing 15 to 20 bucks. Placed the order over the phone and had it in three days! Mike Green Romsey Victoria AUSTRALIA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sources Stock Tail wheel Spring? > > > Anyone buy a tail wheel spring for the A-arm style tail wheel lately? I > know the John Deer part number but I was wondering if there were any other > options. Anyone know what the Price tail wheel plans call for? > > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, Ca > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Mike Cuy's Wheels
Date: Apr 11, 2006
Mike I have the money to finally buy my wheels. I noticed in the archives you said your rims are 3.5" inches wide by 19" inches. The Henderson plans use a 1.85" by 21". Are your rims really 3.5 inches wide? I like the idea of the wider tires to give more cushion. Thanks Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Mike Cuy's Wheels
Chris & Group, Since I personally am a bit on the wide side I got wide wheels to match:) Seriously---I'm glad to hear that you are at the stage where you can start on your wire wheels. Excellent ! I looked and looked for aluminum alloy rims at motorcycle shops, motorcycle salvage yards, you name it---and finally found a pair that say on the side 3.5 x 19 and that is what size tire and tube I ordered as well. Some builders choose narrower and/or taller wheels like the 21" Henderson's and I think they look just great too. Anything smaller than 19" doesn't look proportional to the plane's size---this is just my opinion but even Frank Pavliga went to taller rims when he saw my 19"s. (they were running 18" wheels for many years) Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts?
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Look at http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/0012/VA0001.html Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rcaprd(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stress testing Corvair motor mounts? In a message dated 4/11/2006 3:17:55 PM Central Standard Time, bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net writes: I used a 2 part automotive type paint that hardens enough that you can color sand it and buff it out if you want. Hopefully that is hard enough. I I believe Ben is correct, in that automotive epoxy paint is a Hard paint. Wouldn't be a good choice for a fabric airplane, unless a flex agent is used with it. I think the best way is to experiment with the paint you are planning on using, by painting a piece of sheet metal, and when it is cured, bend it and see if the paint cracks. Maybe someone else has done this research, or knows what type paint they use on the welds of crane equipment. (crack paint) Chuck G. Home Pietenpol NX770CG <http://nx770cg.com/> Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Sources Stock Tail wheel Spring?
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I used a spring from McMaster-Carr Part No. 96485K141 Spring-Tempered Stl Jumbo Compression Spring 6" Length, 1.937" OD, .25" Wire Diameter Price $8.93 Works just fine. Jack Phillips Finally flew the Pietenpol yesterday evening for the first time since January -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catdesign Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sources Stock Tail wheel Spring? Anyone buy a tail wheel spring for the A-arm style tail wheel lately? I know the John Deer part number but I was wondering if there were any other options. Anyone know what the Price tail wheel plans call for? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mike Cuy's Wheels
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Chris and Group, I found a pair of 21" x 3" aluminum rims at a motorcycle shop and paid $20 for the pair (with tires!). Both tires were flat. When I removed the old tires, I found that both rims were cracked. I ended up buying new aluminum rims from Buchanan's when they laced up my hubs with new custom spokes. I forget what the rims cost me but they were reasonable and look great. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mike Cuy's Wheels Chris & Group, Since I personally am a bit on the wide side I got wide wheels to match:) Seriously---I'm glad to hear that you are at the stage where you can start on your wire wheels. Excellent ! I looked and looked for aluminum alloy rims at motorcycle shops, motorcycle salvage yards, you name it---and finally found a pair that say on the side 3.5 x 19 and that is what size tire and tube I ordered as well. Some builders choose narrower and/or taller wheels like the 21" Henderson's and I think they look just great too. Anything smaller than 19" doesn't look proportional to the plane's size---this is just my opinion but even Frank Pavliga went to taller rims when he saw my 19"s. (they were running 18" wheels for many years) Mike C. in Ohio Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: chris cummins <cccstandard(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Flying ATL to Brodhead: grass strips?
We have a nice little grass strip in Rensselaer In. (RZL). Larry Williams stops here on his way to Brodhead. CC --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: chris cummins <cccstandard(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: grass runways
Yes we have fuel on the field...100LL & JetA CC --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Nick Harris" <nharris25(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: grass runways
Date: Apr 12, 2006
Try www.airnav.com it should have runway types on it. Nick Harris nharris25(at)yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: chris cummins To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: grass runways Yes we have fuel on the field...100LL & JetA CC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: grass runways
Nick, Thanks - it's a great site. Jeff >Try <http://www.airnav.com>www.airnav.com it should have runway types on it. > > >Nick Harris >nharris25(at)yahoo.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:cccstandard(at)yahoo.com>chris cummins >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:34 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: grass runways > >Yes we have fuel on the field...100LL & JetA > >CC > > >regular phones from your PC and save big. -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Atlanta, GA 30322 Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision http://www.molvis.org/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 12, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Turk's Head knot
Hey Rick, send me your email addy. Clif PS, That's my kind of plane. If I just didn't have a plane in the backyard already........... :-) CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca You think that's funny, check you this seaplane at SNF. Its built from a regular old aluminum fishing boat. Has a plastic lawn chair bolted down for a seat, even retractable gear. Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net
Date: Apr 13, 2006
What are the dates for Brodhead this year? N491RH What are the dates for Brodhead this year? N491RH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 13, 2006
From: "John Ford" <Jford(at)indstate.edu>
Subject: Re:
July 21, 22 and 23 I think.. John Ford john(at)indstate.edu 812-237-8542 "The real musicians are in jazz clubs and they're starving to death." -- Gene Simmons *************************************************************************** This email, and any attachments, thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. *************************************************************************** >>> slowbilder(at)comcast.net Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:43:51 PM >>> What are the dates for Brodhead this year? N491RH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Big Piet - Brodhead
Date: Apr 13, 2006
Dates are July 21, 22, 23 but the main day is Saturday the 22nd. Barry Please put "Big Piet" in subject line so I will see it and not dump with the junk mail who are u? ----- Original Message ----- From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net To: Piet Group Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:43 PM What are the dates for Brodhead this year? N491RH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wood Sources
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2006
Question: If you were buying wood to build ribs with, where would you go to get it? I didn't want to buy Sitka Spruce boards and cut them with my tablesaw. I'm interested in finding out if I bought the wrong type of wood. I didn't buy a lot but in talking with the establishment I bought it from, I was VERY surprised to hear their last statement on dealing with this problem. (In the end, if I do have to eat the wood I bought I'm only out $300 and much better educated, perhaps worth the $300) -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28261#28261 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 13, 2006
For my first project I bought from Aircraft Spruce. Wood was great quality, but took a long time to get delivered. Second project, I tried cutting my own, that didn't work too well, so I ordered from Wicks. Great quality, quick delivery and about the same price as ACS. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 6:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood Sources > > > Question: If you were buying wood to build ribs with, where would you go > to get it? I didn't want to buy Sitka Spruce boards and cut them with my > tablesaw. I'm interested in finding out if I bought the wrong type of > wood. > > I didn't buy a lot but in talking with the establishment I bought it from, > I was VERY surprised to hear their last statement on dealing with this > problem. (In the end, if I do have to eat the wood I bought I'm only out > $300 and much better educated, perhaps worth the $300) > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28261#28261 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Building logs???
From: "Launchpad" <launchpad(at)chartermi.net>
Date: Apr 13, 2006
Thanks so much Ben for the info. That is exactly what I was looking for. Say, hows life in Mims? Former Cocoa Beach area guy here. Miss the south. Would enjoy meeting and checking out your plane on my next trip down.. Brian Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28287#28287 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 13, 2006
I bought 96 pieces of capstrip from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty to do the ribs. I was concerned with the grain slope and the overall crappy quality of the order (some pieces missing CHUNKS!). I bought Advisory Circular 43.13 (also a download from FAA which I recommend to anyone building a wooden plane) and got the FAA definition of airworthy wood (grain slope not to exceed 1 inch over a 15 inch length on ALL FOUR FACES). My order was plagued with knots, divots, and grain issues. I called them, quoting 43.13, and they said they would replace any bad wood, but would have to check with Mr. Irwin (president???) for authorization. This was the last thing I heard from them... "The only wood they sell specifically for structural use is spar material." So my assumption is that the capstrip, and all the wood they sell (non-spar) is for non-structural (decorative?) use. Since I'm new to this (ribs are my first part of this project) I'm wondering how everybody else gets aircraft grade lumber. What is capstrip anyway? Am I misinterpreting something here? -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28290#28290 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 13, 2006
I got my wing rib stock from wicks, good wood, good service, good price. They were cheaper on steel last time I ordered too. Fuselage wood came form the guy in Canada (Gene Peters), but I think he retired. This is the second time someone on the list had problems with Aircraft Spruce. Hope its not a trend. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Sources > > > I bought 96 pieces of capstrip from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty to do > the ribs. I was concerned with the grain slope and the overall crappy > quality of the order (some pieces missing CHUNKS!). I bought Advisory > Circular 43.13 (also a download from FAA which I recommend to anyone > building a wooden plane) and got the FAA definition of airworthy wood > (grain slope not to exceed 1 inch over a 15 inch length on ALL FOUR > FACES). My order was plagued with knots, divots, and grain issues. I > called them, quoting 43.13, and they said they would replace any bad wood, > but would have to check with Mr. Irwin (president???) for authorization. > This was the last thing I heard from them... > > "The only wood they sell specifically for structural use is spar > material." So my assumption is that the capstrip, and all the wood they > sell (non-spar) is for non-structural (decorative?) use. Since I'm new to > this (ribs are my first part of this project) I'm wondering how everybody > else gets aircraft grade lumber. What is capstrip anyway? Am I > misinterpreting something here? > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28290#28290 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 14, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I concur with Dick. Wicks has great quality wood, cut accurately to your dimenison, and much faster than Aircraft Spruce (why do they call the company that name?). Typically Aicraft Spruce quotes 4 to 6 weeks delivery. Wicks can usually do it in 2 weeks or less. Jack Phillips Glad to finally have good Pietenpol weather, and be exercising Icarus Plummet again -----Original Message----- For my first project I bought from Aircraft Spruce. Wood was great quality, but took a long time to get delivered. Second project, I tried cutting my own, that didn't work too well, so I ordered from Wicks. Great quality, quick delivery and about the same price as ACS. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 6:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood Sources > > > Question: If you were buying wood to build ribs with, where would you go > to get it? I didn't want to buy Sitka Spruce boards and cut them with my > tablesaw. I'm interested in finding out if I bought the wrong type of > wood. > > I didn't buy a lot but in talking with the establishment I bought it from, > I was VERY surprised to hear their last statement on dealing with this > problem. (In the end, if I do have to eat the wood I bought I'm only out > $300 and much better educated, perhaps worth the $300) > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2006
From: Lou Wither <nav8799h(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Glen, There is a place in New London that sells Sitka spruce. You can pick out your own boards and look over their selection. I purchased "Aircraft Quality" spruce spars from a friend that restores Waco's. Frankly, I couldn't see the differenct between that and what I got in New London. I cut mine on a table saw and finished them to size with a jointer. I used a micrometer to make sure they were all exactly the same, it is pretty easy to hold them to +/- .005". You get a lot of loss, but you can hand pick what you want for the cap strips and use the other pieces for the structural pieces with larger sections. Lou Wither N799LJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 14, 2006
Subject: Aircraft wood
I bought my spruce from McCormack's in Madison, WI -- very reasonable and I live only two hours away. What I like is that you can pick out your own wood and so, obviously, you know exactly what you're hauling home. Had to cut it myself into strips for the longerons and uprights for fuselage, but with a good sharp table saw blade and two of my boys (16 and 19)to help feed it through the saw (one at each end of the 14-foot lengths and me at the saw-- I didn't want them losing a finger if something slipped) it was relatively easy to cut the longerons out. As for capstrips, I bought a complete set of ribs from the late Charlie Rubeck -- that's "cheating" a little, but once my Piet flies, we'll be literally and figuratively flying on Charlie's "wings" -- and I can't think of a better way to honor his memory! Today I plan to finish up the vertical stab and then glue up the rudder. With the rudder finished all the tailpieces will be finished -- then I can assemble the landing gear and she'll be on wheels! Last weekend was spent, mostly, finishing up the painting and installing chair rail in the kitchen. That compound, laser-guided miter saw that my wife bought me for Christmas a couple years ago-- and which I claimed was for household jobs, heh-heh-heh - sure came in handy for that chair rail! All the corners came out so nice -- my wife thinks I'm a stinking genius! And you know, some of that fancy chair rail would look great around the perimeter of my Piet's cockpit...hmmmm.... Just kidding! Only 90-some days to Brodhead! Happy building/flying everyone! Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2006
A Pober Jr. Ace (wood wing) builder in my area ordered his wood from Wicks and has been happy what everything he's received. I'm still working this out with AS&S. I'm not the type that goes out to smear people but thought that other new builders sizing up their sources for lumber might want to know what they're getting into. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28338#28338 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2006
Hi Lou, I thought about it. You've told me about that place before. I just don't have the tablesaw for that right now. My saw is about 50 years old and I need to pull the tilt assembly out and figure out why the blade won't quite make it to 90 degrees. Otherwise it's a great saw. Then I would need a planer (which I don't have) to get the precise dimensions. I figured while I focused on building the ribs with store-bought capstrip, I could put away my pennies for the planer. I almost went out and bought the Rigid one from Home Depot ($350.00) 2 weeks ago. When I bought the wood there was (and still is) a notice on the website that says... NOTICE We supply only certified aircraft grade spruce. Do not accept lower grades of spruce for lower prices in your project. It is no bargain. Demand top quality. No Packaging Charges on Spruce I've reminded them of the notice and asked what they use as a measure for certified "aircraft grade" and asked who certifies it. I'm going by FAA Advisory Circular 43.13. Although the Customer Service folks try to be nice I get the sense that they are getting bounced back and forth like ping pong balls, trying to help me and then told to do otherwise by their management. Getting the order placed was an ordeal too. They wanted to ship from California but they also have a storefront in Georgia which cuts freight in half. It took 5 days for them to figure out how to ship it. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28345#28345 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Turk's Head knot
From: "at7000ft" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 14, 2006
Thanks Clif, I am at at7000ft(at)gmail.com. -------- Rick Holland Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28349#28349 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: axle shims
Date: Apr 14, 2006
What is it about axle shims that makes them so expensive? I need to correct a little camber on one side and got to looking at prices of shims. Anybody have any shortcuts or tips on axle shims? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 14, 2006
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Building logs???
At a forum at Sun-N-Fun it was also mentioned that if you keep track of how much time you spend on your project it can count as experience hours if you ever decide you want to get an AP certification. I think I forgot to mention this in my first reply. Living in Mims is great, and I have my shop right here on my property. Always love to have people come look at the project, just give my a few minutes warning so I can clean the shop up a little. :-[ Ben Launchpad wrote: > >Thanks so much Ben for the info. That is exactly what I was looking for. > Say, hows life in Mims? Former Cocoa Beach area guy here. Miss the south. Would enjoy meeting and checking out your plane on my next trip down.. >Brian > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 14, 2006
Glenn I have a very good quality table saw, and I still found it very difficult to cut those small dimension pieces accurately. For as nice of a job that Wicks does, I don't think it's worth the savings. A couple of other comments. Aircraft Spruce got it's name because thats what they started out doing years ago and expanded from there. Certified Aircraft Grade of course is just the basic 8 grains per inch and the grain to run in accordance with FAA specs. They spell out the specs on page 53 of their cataloug. I'm sure I'm not saying anything new here. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Sources > > > Hi Lou, > I thought about it. You've told me about that place before. I just don't > have the tablesaw for that right now. My saw is about 50 years old and I > need to pull the tilt assembly out and figure out why the blade won't > quite make it to 90 degrees. Otherwise it's a great saw. Then I would > need a planer (which I don't have) to get the precise dimensions. I > figured while I focused on building the ribs with store-bought capstrip, I > could put away my pennies for the planer. I almost went out and bought > the Rigid one from Home Depot ($350.00) 2 weeks ago. > > When I bought the wood there was (and still is) a notice on the website > that says... > > NOTICE > > We supply only certified aircraft grade spruce. Do not accept lower grades > of spruce for lower prices in your project. It is no bargain. Demand top > quality. No Packaging Charges on Spruce > > I've reminded them of the notice and asked what they use as a measure for > certified "aircraft grade" and asked who certifies it. I'm going by FAA > Advisory Circular 43.13. Although the Customer Service folks try to be > nice I get the sense that they are getting bounced back and forth like > ping pong balls, trying to help me and then told to do otherwise by their > management. Getting the order placed was an ordeal too. They wanted to > ship from California but they also have a storefront in Georgia which cuts > freight in half. It took 5 days for them to figure out how to ship it. > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28345#28345 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 2006
Subject: Flying in the Kansas Wind
On Wednesday I went out to face a stiff, gusty, east crosswind. A couple of buddies showed up, who I told I would give 'em a Pietenpol Ride, but I wanted to do some solo landings before I took on a passenger. There was about 3/4 sock exposed at almost direct crosswind, which made it Pilot's discretion as to which runway to use. Initially, the Skydivers plane was using 35, but when I finished pre-flight, they took off on 17. I've been looking for an opportunity to practice crosswind technique, and this one really laid it out for me. Taxiing in the wind was not really difficult, just remember Climb into a quartering headwind, and dive away from a quartering tailwind. It did rock the wings back & forth some, but was very manageable. Just before back taxi on 17, two of the skydivers were landing behind me, and to the right...I didn't and couldn't see them coming. I'm glad they decided not to land on top of me !! Left crosswind takeoff was not too bad...just keep the left aileron in during the takeoff run, and gradually bring it back to close to neutral until rotation. Break ground, and she immediately weathervanes into the wind, and I fly sideways the rest of the way down the runway, and turn left soon after the end of the runway, to take advantage of the more forgiving terrain. Stayed in the pattern to do some landings, & back taxi. Base to final I overshot the grass strip, and the first landing was a third of the way down the 1500' grass strip, and a pretty good bounce, so I went full power for a go around...don't even try to save a bad landing...just go around. The next attempt was much better, but still a bounce. I was trying to carry too much speed on final approach, with the upwind wing down, so the instant the mains made contact, I blipped some forward stick to keep it on the ground, for a wheel landing. I disappointed my friends when I told them it was too rough to risk taking a passenger in these conditions. I was bouncing all over the place on downwind. I did another flight later on in the evening, after the wind died down some, went south about 5 miles, and did some steep turns about a point...Smoke On !! Came back and made 3 pretty good landings. Remember : If you can walk away, it was a good landing...if you can use the plane again, it was a Great Landing !! On Thursday, there was a Full sock of wind, right down the runway. I had less than a half load of fuel, and was by myself today, so I thought I would see how short the takeoff roll would be...maybe even a Vertical takeoff !! I rolled the plane out of the hanger, and pointed 'er right into the wind, for pre-flight. She just wouldn't stand still long enough for me to pre-flight !! She kept tippee toeing, lifting one wheel off the ground, then the other, then the tail would come up. I couldn't even walk away from the plane !! I had to hold 'er from rolling backwards, too. I thought maybe I would have to chalk the Back of the tires !! This went on for about 10 minutes, before I decided to put 'er back in the barn (hanger). If I had a helper, I could have flown that day, but this launch was beyond my solo capacity. Ah, yesss...the Kansas Winds - always challenging...practice, practice, practice !!! Chuck G. Wichita, KS NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2006
From: <glennthomas(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Cc: Dick Navratil What I've come to learn is that if the end grain is vertical, then the grain cannot be straight on the side faces. But the specs say 4 faces. Yesterday I met with a friend building a Flizter and he told me to not be so fussy witht he capstrips because of all the gussets. My gut feeling is that I should be looking for compliant slope on the grain if the piece is quarter cut, or ignore if the grain is vertical if the top and bottom look OK. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net
Date: Apr 15, 2006
Barry Thanks for the Brodhead dates. I'm Bob Humbert in Battle Creek Michigan. I have a Piet project that I started in 1969. It is finally (hopefully) in the final stages of completion. Power is C-75-12. It is now out of the garage and in a hanger in Marshall Michigan, with the wings on, engine mounted, etc. There are a few issues to resolve with the engine then it should be ready for inspection. I was afraid that Brodhead would be that weekend. That weekend I will be working as an official at a national hot air balloon championship in South Carolina that weekend. That event has conflicted with Brodhead for a number of years. I will probably have a chance to visit the Brodhead airport again in June while I am working a hot air balloon event in Monroe WI. I have worked the balloon event in Monroe in June for a number of years now and have taken the opportunity to have a look at the planes and projects at Brodhead while I'm there. regards! Barry Thanks for the Brodhead dates. I'm Bob Humbert in Battle Creek Michigan. I have a Piet project that I started in 1969. It is finally (hopefully) in the final stages of completion. Power is C-75-12. It is now out of the garage and in a hanger in Marshall Michigan, with the wings on, engine mounted, etc. There are a few issues to resolve with the engine then it should be ready for inspection. I was afraid that Brodhead would be that weekend. That weekendI will be working as an official at a national hot air balloon championship in South Carolina that weekend. That event has conflicted with Brodhead for a number of years. I will probably have a chance to visit the Brodhead airport again in June while I am working a hot air balloon event in Monroe WI. I have worked the balloon eventin Monroein June for a number of years now and have taken the opportunity to have a look at the planes and projects at Brodhead while I'm there. regards! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Big Piet - Brodhead
Date: Apr 15, 2006
Barry Thanks for the Brodhead dates. I'm Bob Humbert in Battle Creek Michigan. I have a Piet project that I started in 1969. It is finally (hopefully) in the final stages of completion. Power is C-75-12. It is now out of the garage and in a hanger in Marshall Michigan, with the wings on, engine mounted, etc. There are a few issues to resolve with the engine then it should be ready for inspection. I was afraid that Brodhead would be that weekend. That weekend I will be working as an official at a national hot air balloon championship in South Carolina that weekend. That event has conflicted with Brodhead for a number of years. I will probably have a chance to visit the Brodhead airport again in June while I am working a hot air balloon event in Monroe WI. I have worked the balloon event in Monroe in June for a number of years now and have taken the opportunity to have a look at the planes and projects at Brodhead while I'm there. regards! -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> Dates are July 21, 22, 23 but the main day is Saturday the 22nd. Barry Please put "Big Piet" in subject line so I will see it and not dump with the junk mail who are u? ----- Original Message ----- From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:43 PM What are the dates for Brodhead this year? N491RH Barry Thanks for the Brodhead dates. I'm Bob Humbert in Battle Creek Michigan. I have a Piet project that I started in 1969. It is finally (hopefully) in the final stages of completion. Power is C-75-12. It is now out of the garage and in a hanger in Marshall Michigan, with the wings on, engine mounted, etc. There are a few issues to resolve with the engine then it should be ready for inspection. I was afraid that Brodhead would be that weekend. That weekendI will be working as an official at a national hot air balloon championship in South Carolina that weekend. That event has conflicted with Brodhead for a number of years. I will probably have a chance to visit the Brodhead airport again in June while I am working a hot air balloon event in Monroe WI. I have worked the balloon eventin Monroein June for a number of years now and have taken the opportunity to have a look at the planes and projects at Brodhead while I'm there. regards! -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Barry Davis" bed(at)mindspring.com Dates are July 21, 22, 23 but the main day is Saturday the 22nd. Barry Please put "Big Piet" in subject line so I will see it and not dump with the junk mail who are u? ----- Original Message ----- From: <A title=slowbilder(at)comcast.net ">slowbilder(at)comcast.net Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:43 PM What are the dates for Brodhead this year? N491RH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: Landing Gear strength
Just riding in on this old message here to ask why most of you guys don't enclose the landing gear in fabric?I noticed a few had it done in some of the photos but most where open.Is this personal preference or is there a reason?Since in most cases the landing gear is of a cub type,I would think it would be enclosed.How does this effect flight characteristics?If at all. Rick Holland wrote: > > Tim > > I also wanted Cub style gear on my Piet with springs. Since the GN-1 > gear is really just reverse engineered Cub gear I bougth a set of GN-1 > plans and merged the two designs. Haven't heard of a lot of Cubs > breaking their gear. To prevent prop and fuselage damage if a main > gear collapses I have heard of people installing a safety cable > between the two axles (although I have never seen one on a Piet), has > anyone installed something like this? > > You will also notice in the picture that I went for bolt on axles > which can be shimmed later if my measuring, cutting, grinding, and/or > welding is off a bit (a very distinct possibility). Am using Matco > axles and wheels. > > Rick H > > On 2/17/06, Tim Willis wrote: > > I am intending to use Cub-type split LG, except for crossed > tube and die springs, instead of bungees. > > I have talked with a few people who have had hard or bad > landings in Piets. In all cases something snapped in their > LG. In at least one case the mains held, but a part of the > spring X-member snapped, causing the right LG to splay out. > > As you know collapsing LG can break the prop, a wing or two, > or even crack a longeron. I think we all have at least one > hard landing in our future, whether from a forced or > unscheduled landing, strong or highly variable winds, poor > visibility, or skillset problems. I am looking for a little > insurance here. > > Does anyone have recommendations for beefing up the LG? > What has anyone done in this regard? What would you do > differently with this in mind? > > Thanks. > > < BR> > > > -- > Rick Holland > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > Name: P1010457.JPG > P1010457.JPG Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 > > Name: P1010076.JPG > P1010076.JPG Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 > > Name: P1010460.JPG > P1010460.JPG Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: Re:
I think you meant this message for someone else - or maybe the list in general. Too bad you can't make Brodhead though - it's a great time. Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 15, 2006
Subject: Gear Leg Fabric & Crosswind Landings
In a message dated 4/15/2006 7:49:18 PM Central Standard Time, harvey.rule(at)bell.ca writes: Just riding in on this old message here to ask why most of you guys don't enclose the landing gear in fabric?I noticed a few had it done in some of the photos but most where open.Is this personal preference or is there a reason?Since in most cases the landing gear is of a cub type,I would think it would be enclosed.How does this effect flight characteristics?If at all. I seem to remember BHP wrote that the fabric covering on the split axle gear, adversly effects crosswind landings. Very little doubt that is correct, especially like the crosswinds I was facing last Wednesday. Last summer, I faired in the round tubing on the gear legs, and I'm glad I did Not put the fabric on the legs !! I show how I did that on one of the pages of my web site. Chuck G. Home Pietenpol NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 15, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Landing Gear strength
>> >> As you know collapsing LG can break the prop, a wing or two, >> or even crack a longeron. I think we all have at least one >> hard landing in our future, whether from a forced or >> unscheduled landing, strong or highly variable winds, poor >> visibility, or skillset problems. I am looking for a little >> insurance here. >> >> Does anyone have recommendations for beefing up the LG? >> What has anyone done in this regard? What would you do >> differently with this in mind? >> >> Thanks. >> Something to think about though before you do beef it up. If you really hit that hard, do you really want the gear to stay intact? The energy is going to go somewhere. You could probably build the gear strong enough to take it, but the energy of that impact is going to be transfered. In this case the thing that could give is your back. Id rather fix a landing gear and prop than order an electric wheel chair. How strong is too strong? I don't have the engineering expertise to say. Someone here might. Yet the Piet has been around for an awful long time. There hasn't been what I would consider a rash of gear failures in reasonable landing conditions that some airplanes have experienced. ( if there has been I haven't heard about it and would welcome the chance to be educated) If people were breaking gear all the time, I would definately beef it up. Insurance doesn't always come in the expected package. That breaking gear might be your insurance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
From: Larry Nelson <lnelson208(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Piet for Sale
I am going to sell the Howard Henderson Pietenpol, N444MH. I have enjoyed flying it more than any other plane I own, but I have to shed myself of some "toys". I bought this plane from Joe Santana and he bought it from Howard. I moved the wing back 2.5" and it flies great with my 220# rear end in the rear cockpit. I showed it to a prospect this week. It had not been started for 3 months. She started first pull. $10,500, located in Springfield, MO. I think it has about 120 hours TT engine and airframe. I have all the builders logs, and an extra prop, plus new ELT which I never installed. There are plenty of articles and pictures on this plane on the internet, but I will send some if anyone is interested. My phone number is 417 882 8122. Larry Nelson Springfield, MO Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A Cessna 195 N9883A Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH 1963 GMC 4106-1618 SV/ Spirit of America ARS WB0JOT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Landing Gear strength
A related question I posted a while back and didn't see any reply to was about the addition of a safety cable (for split type gear) to prevent the gear from totally collapsing. Anyone seen this on a Piet? RIck H. On 4/15/06, Mark Blackwell wrote: > > markb1958(at)verizon.net> > > > >> > >> As you know collapsing LG can break the prop, a wing or two, > >> or even crack a longeron. I think we all have at least one > >> hard landing in our future, whether from a forced or > >> unscheduled landing, strong or highly variable winds, poor > >> visibility, or skillset problems. I am looking for a little > >> insurance here. > >> > >> Does anyone have recommendations for beefing up the LG? > >> What has anyone done in this regard? What would you do > >> differently with this in mind? > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > Something to think about though before you do beef it up. If you really > hit > that hard, do you really want the gear to stay intact? The energy is > going > to go somewhere. You could probably build the gear strong enough to take > it, but the energy of that impact is going to be transfered. In this case > the thing that could give is your back. Id rather fix a landing gear and > prop than order an electric wheel chair. How strong is too strong? I > don't > have the engineering expertise to say. Someone here might. Yet the Piet > has been around for an awful long time. There hasn't been what I would > consider a rash of gear failures in reasonable landing conditions that > some > airplanes have experienced. ( if there has been I haven't heard about it > and > would welcome the chance to be educated) If people were breaking gear all > the time, I would definately beef it up. Insurance doesn't always come in > the expected package. That breaking gear might be your insurance. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: Re: Landing Gear strength
In a message dated 4/16/2006 10:22:01 AM Central Standard Time, at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: A related question I posted a while back and didn't see any reply to was about the addition of a safety cable (for split type gear) to prevent the gear from totally collapsing. Anyone seen this on a Piet? RIck H. Happy Easter to All !! Rick, The safety cable is there in the plans, on Drawing No. 3, bottom center of the page. It MUST be used with Bunji chords, in the event of a bunji chord failure. When I had Bunji's, I set the length of this cable to allow the suggested 2 1/2" of travel, but it seemed I would bottom out the suspension on this cable, even for just a moderately hard landing. It sent a hard BAM throughout the airframe. I could never get my bunji's tight enough, even after shortening them up, and re-tying them 6 or 8 times...no easy chore to re-install them. I think maybe 2 3/4" would be better, but tube inside would have to be longer if that safety cable were longer. Spring of '04, I finally gave up on the bunji's, after one of them came un-tied, and retrofitted with spring gear. It's not necessary with springs, because the slot the bolt rides in will only allow X amount of deflection. I like the springs MUCH better than the bunji's...relatively maintenance free (oil once in a while), and I have Never bottomed them out. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Landing Gear strength
Arn't safety cables sometimes used with spring type split gear also? Just in case a weld or something breaks on a hard landing? Rick H. On 4/16/06, Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/16/2006 10:22:01 AM Central Standard Time, > at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: > > A related question I posted a while back and didn't see any reply to was > about the addition of a safety cable (for split type gear) to prevent the > gear from totally collapsing. Anyone seen this on a Piet? > > RIck H. > > Happy Easter to All !! > Rick, > The safety cable is there in the plans, on Drawing No. 3, bottom > center of the page. It MUST be used with Bunji chords, in the event of a > bunji chord failure. When I had Bunji's, I set the length of this cable to > allow the suggested 2 1/2" of travel, but it seemed I would bottom out the > suspension on this cable, even for just a moderately hard landing. It sent > a hard BAM throughout the airframe. I could never get my bunji's tight > enough, even after shortening them up, and re-tying them 6 or 8 times...no > easy chore to re-install them. I think maybe 2 3/4" would be better, but > tube inside would have to be longer if that safety cable were longer. > Spring of '04, I finally gave up on the bunji's, after one of them > came un-tied, and retrofitted with spring gear. It's not necessary with > springs, because the slot the bolt rides in will only allow X amount of > deflection. I like the springs MUCH better than the bunji's...relatively > maintenance free (oil once in a while), and I have Never bottomed them out. > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lynn Knoll" <dknoll(at)cox.net>
Subject: Rudder Return Spring
Date: Apr 16, 2006
We are going with pedals. We installed Piper return springs but something stronger is required. I can't seem to find any information in the archives. I know.......if we would have followed the plans and went with a rudder bar we wouldn't be in this predicament. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Lynn & Kevin Knoll Piet/Vair Wichita ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: Re: Rudder Return Spring
Use a rudder bar for front pit feet, connect to pedals with a 3/8 4130 rod on either side and your problem is solved. That old dumb fellow in Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again...
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Hello, I am new to the list, but have been monitoring it and reading about the various projects and advice. Nice. Tuesday I made the decision to take over Rob Spoo's Pietenpol project and will be no doubt asking for advice from time to time. Does anyone know if a Pietenpol has been registered as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft so that it can be used for instruction and flown on a Sport Pilot certificate? Pete Marsh and I run a Sport Pilot instruction center at Birchwood Airport and we want to use the Pietenpol to give rides to youth interested in aviation. I haven't asked the FAA about this yet, but wondered if there were any messages in the string on this. RS Rob Stapleton Photojournalist Anchorage Alaska 907-336-9425 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: [ Harvey Rule ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Harvey Rule Lists: Pietenpol-List Subject: Engine Run Up http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/harvey.rule@bell.ca.04.16.2006/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: [ Graham J. Hansen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Graham J. Hansen <grhans@cable-lynx.net> Lists: Pietenpol-List Subject: Pietenpol, CF-AUN http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/grhans@cable-lynx.net.04.16.2006/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: [ Chris Tracy ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Chris Tracy Lists: Pietenpol-List Subject: Simple Jig for Drilling Holes When Installing Fittings http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/catdesign@intergate.com.04.16.2006/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: Piet Project Available
I for one have really gotten a lot out of Corky's posts.I hope he will stay with the web page.I understand the reasoning behind what he has to do though ,sad as it is.The times they are a changing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 16, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again...
Rob there would be no reason to if you are going to build it. Registering it as an ELSA would get you out of the 51% requirement for building. I also think that the factory at that point can have maintenance training courses that can certify owners to do maintenance, but that might be only SLSA. If you build it under the amature built, you get the Repairmans Certificate if you build at least 51% without any additional paperwork or training. If the aircraft meets Light Sport Aircraft specs, then it can be operated by an properly certified pilot. That includes LS pilots with the proper sign offs and certifications. Neither ELSA or just experimental will allow any commercial operations so you couldn't charge for the rides you would give. SLSA allows only flight training if memory is correct. As far as asking the FAA, the FAA here is pretty set against most anything LSA. Its not surprising really when you think about how the organzation is structured. Asking someone to sign off an ELSA might be the first one that inspector has done and they don't like signing off things that they haven't done before. A more conventional experimental is something most have done for a while and would raise no paperwork concerns or red flags that could get them in trouble. If anyone else could think of a reason why he should even ask about it, Im all ears as well cause I looked at the same thing. (Only just for me not giving rides) I couldn't find a single reason why ELSA would be any better for a scratch built airplane than experimental. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Stapleton To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Hello, I am new to the list, but have been monitoring it and reading about the various projects and advice. Nice. Tuesday I made the decision to take over Rob Spoo's Pietenpol project and will be no doubt asking for advice from time to time. Does anyone know if a Pietenpol has been registered as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft so that it can be used for instruction and flown on a Sport Pilot certificate? Pete Marsh and I run a Sport Pilot instruction center at Birchwood Airport and we want to use the Pietenpol to give rides to youth interested in aviation. I haven't asked the FAA about this yet, but wondered if there were any messages in the string on this. RS Rob Stapleton Photojournalist Anchorage Alaska 907-336-9425 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Subject: Re: Landing Gear strength
In a message dated 4/16/2006 12:15:24 PM Central Standard Time, at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes: Arn't safety cables sometimes used with spring type split gear also? Just in case a weld or something breaks on a hard landing? Rick H. I've never seen them on spring gear, in fact I don't know how you would do it. As the gear takes on weight, the springs compress. Kind of strange looking when you watch the gear actuate by rocking the plane back & forth. I've done some runway hardness tests, and the gear holds up just fine. Chuck G. Home Pietenpol NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Rudder Return Spring
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Do you have front pedals also? Are the front and rear linked? If so, I used a bungee cord pre made and tied it around a eye in the firewall and hooked it to each pedal, it works great. Let me know if you would like to see a pic. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynn Knoll To: pietenpol list Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 12:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rudder Return Spring We are going with pedals. We installed Piper return springs but something stronger is required. I can't seem to find any information in the archives. I know.......if we would have followed the plans and went with a rudder bar we wouldn't be in this predicament. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Lynn & Kevin Knoll Piet/Vair Wichita ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again...
Date: Apr 16, 2006
Mark, I have no intention of charging for the rides, I want to do it on behalf the EAA program for free. As for the ELSA program and the FAA, it is my understanding that you can charge for instruction while flying an ELSA. While the category is very restrictive (ie.no night flights, and no flights over 10,000 ft etc.) it is our mission to advance interest in flying and I think the Pietenpol will attract attention and can be used as an example. Now, whether I can find the time to work on this project and finish it, is a far deeper question on my mind. Thanks for your reply I will let you know what I am going to do, after I talk with the local FSDO about it. Regards, Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Blackwell Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Rob there would be no reason to if you are going to build it. Registering it as an ELSA would get you out of the 51% requirement for building. I also think that the factory at that point can have maintenance training courses that can certify owners to do maintenance, but that might be only SLSA. If you build it under the amature built, you get the Repairmans Certificate if you build at least 51% without any additional paperwork or training. If the aircraft meets Light Sport Aircraft specs, then it can be operated by an properly certified pilot. That includes LS pilots with the proper sign offs and certifications. Neither ELSA or just experimental will allow any commercial operations so you couldn't charge for the rides you would give. SLSA allows only flight training if memory is correct. As far as asking the FAA, the FAA here is pretty set against most anything LSA. Its not surprising really when you think about how the organzation is structured. Asking someone to sign off an ELSA might be the first one that inspector has done and they don't like signing off things that they haven't done before. A more conventional experimental is something most have done for a while and would raise no paperwork concerns or red flags that could get them in trouble. If anyone else could think of a reason why he should even ask about it, Im all ears as well cause I looked at the same thing. (Only just for me not giving rides) I couldn't find a single reason why ELSA would be any better for a scratch built airplane than experimental. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Stapleton <mailto:foto(at)alaska.net> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Hello, I am new to the list, but have been monitoring it and reading about the various projects and advice. Nice. Tuesday I made the decision to take over Rob Spoo's Pietenpol project and will be no doubt asking for advice from time to time. Does anyone know if a Pietenpol has been registered as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft so that it can be used for instruction and flown on a Sport Pilot certificate? Pete Marsh and I run a Sport Pilot instruction center at Birchwood Airport and we want to use the Pietenpol to give rides to youth interested in aviation. I haven't asked the FAA about this yet, but wondered if there were any messages in the string on this. RS Rob Stapleton Photojournalist Anchorage Alaska 907-336-9425 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2006
From: "Mark Blackwell" <markb1958(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again...
Yes you can charge for instruction in an airplane provided by the student. You just can't rent an ELSA. I believe you can rent an SLSA. If you registered it as an regular experimental and put lights ect on it, you would have no night restriction or altitude restrictions on the airplane. As an ELSA you would course how many Pieters fly at night? For the nature of the EAA young eagles program, it would be a different looking airplane that should be a ride they won't forget. You might even consider it long term advertising because it was a simple flight like that, that started an interest in aviation that one day lead me to get to an airport and learn to fly. Sad thing is most of that type of work goes unrewarded in a society that is so mobile. By the time that the kids you give a ride to can afford to start, they have gone off to college and found a job somewhere that usually isn't back home. Still worth doing in my opinion and a whole lot of fun. I would be interested in what your FSDO tells you and their overall attitude toward LSA. Around here its name is mud. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Stapleton To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:14 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Mark, I have no intention of charging for the rides, I want to do it on behalf the EAA program for free. As for the ELSA program and the FAA, it is my understanding that you can charge for instruction while flying an ELSA. While the category is very restrictive (ie.no night flights, and no flights over 10,000 ft etc.) it is our mission to advance interest in flying and I think the Pietenpol will attract attention and can be used as an example. Now, whether I can find the time to work on this project and finish it, is a far deeper question on my mind. Thanks for your reply I will let you know what I am going to do, after I talk with the local FSDO about it. Regards, Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Blackwell Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 6:37 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Rob there would be no reason to if you are going to build it. Registering it as an ELSA would get you out of the 51% requirement for building. I also think that the factory at that point can have maintenance training courses that can certify owners to do maintenance, but that might be only SLSA. If you build it under the amature built, you get the Repairmans Certificate if you build at least 51% without any additional paperwork or training. If the aircraft meets Light Sport Aircraft specs, then it can be operated by an properly certified pilot. That includes LS pilots with the proper sign offs and certifications. Neither ELSA or just experimental will allow any commercial operations so you couldn't charge for the rides you would give. SLSA allows only flight training if memory is correct. As far as asking the FAA, the FAA here is pretty set against most anything LSA. Its not surprising really when you think about how the organzation is structured. Asking someone to sign off an ELSA might be the first one that inspector has done and they don't like signing off things that they haven't done before. A more conventional experimental is something most have done for a while and would raise no paperwork concerns or red flags that could get them in trouble. If anyone else could think of a reason why he should even ask about it, Im all ears as well cause I looked at the same thing. (Only just for me not giving rides) I couldn't find a single reason why ELSA would be any better for a scratch built airplane than experimental. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Stapleton To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Hello, I am new to the list, but have been monitoring it and reading about the various projects and advice. Nice. Tuesday I made the decision to take over Rob Spoo's Pietenpol project and will be no doubt asking for advice from time to time. Does anyone know if a Pietenpol has been registered as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft so that it can be used for instruction and flown on a Sport Pilot certificate? Pete Marsh and I run a Sport Pilot instruction center at Birchwood Airport and we want to use the Pietenpol to give rides to youth interested in aviation. I haven't asked the FAA about this yet, but wondered if there were any messages in the string on this. RS Rob Stapleton Photojournalist Anchorage Alaska 907-336-9425 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: tire pressure
Date: Apr 17, 2006
For you folks NOT running skinny tires... 41CC has 6.00x6 tires... what kind of pressure do you run in them? The tire charts are all over the place, depending on number of plies and so forth, but looks like for a gross weight in the 1100 lb. range, something like 25-30 psi. Sounds high to me which is why I'm asking the question. So, who is running what tire pressure in non-motorcycle tires, Cub style gear? Thanks! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again...
I suggest you contact Joe Norris at EAA. He has been a font of information for me on LSA issues: jnorris(at)eaa.org The "51% rule" only requires that more than half the work done be by amateurs for the reasons listed in the rule (e.g., personal education). The work does not have to be done by one person. A string of people can have owned a project, each doing work on it, and it would still qualify as an experimental, amateur-built, and be registered to the final owner, who in turn would get the repairman's certificate. I think. Anyway, send your questions to Joe at jnorris(at)eaa.org. He's done a great job for me in the past. Jeff >Rob there would be no reason to if you are going >to build it. Registering it as an ELSA would >get you out of the 51% requirement for building. >I also think that the factory at that point can >have maintenance training courses that can >certify owners to do maintenance, but that might >be only SLSA. > >If you build it under the amature built, you get >the Repairmans Certificate if you build at least >51% without any additional paperwork or >training. If the aircraft meets Light Sport >Aircraft specs, then it can be operated by an >properly certified pilot. That includes LS >pilots with the proper sign offs and >certifications. > >Neither ELSA or just experimental will allow any >commercial operations so you couldn't charge for >the rides you would give. SLSA allows only >flight training if memory is correct. > >As far as asking the FAA, the FAA here is pretty >set against most anything LSA. Its not >surprising really when you think about how the >organzation is structured. Asking someone to >sign off an ELSA might be the first one that >inspector has done and they don't like signing >off things that they haven't done before. A >more conventional experimental is something most >have done for a while and would raise no >paperwork concerns or red flags that could get >them in trouble. > >If anyone else could think of a reason why he >should even ask about it, Im all ears as well >cause I looked at the same thing. (Only just for >me not giving rides) I couldn't find a single >reason why ELSA would be any better for a >scratch built airplane than experimental. > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:foto(at)alaska.net>Rob Stapleton >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:34 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... > >Hello, >I am new to the list, but have been monitoring >it and reading about the various projects and >advice. Nice. > >Tuesday I made the decision to take over Rob >Spoo=92s Pietenpol project and will be no doubt >asking for advice from time to time. Does anyone >know if a Pietenpol has been registered as an >Experimental Light Sport Aircraft so that it can >be used for instruction and flown on a Sport >Pilot certificate? >Pete Marsh and I run a Sport Pilot instruction >center at Birchwood Airport and we want to use >the Pietenpol to give rides to youth interested >in aviation. I haven=92t asked the FAA about this >yet, but wondered if there were any messages in >the string on this. >RS > >Rob Stapleton Photojournalist >Anchorage Alaska >907-336-9425 > -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 17, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Glenn, As far as I can see, the only reference to 4 faces in AC43.13-1B is when determining whether cross-grain is acceptable or not. The preferred cut is quarter-sawn (also called vertical grain), where the log is first cut into quarters, then slices are cut off of the sides of each quarter. The result (for the most part) is a board with the grain clearly visible on two long faces of the board, and barely discernable on the other two (short) faces. You can clearly count the growth rings on the end of quarter-sawn boards. I remember seeing a diagram that showed measuring the grain slope on adjacent faces, but now I can't find a reference to it on the web - maybe its an old magazine article - but you clearly can't have both (grain slope evident on 4 sides AND vertical grain). Having said all that, the wood I have used so far was purchased as a 20 foot length of rough sawn 2" x 6" Sitka. I ran it through my father-in-law's thickness planer (just because it was available) to smooth out the 6" faces, then did all the rest of the cutting on my 32-year old 9" diameter blade table saw. The planing isn't really necessary, just use a good quality ripping blade. I actually ended up running all my capstrips through the table saw twice. The first pass was just pushed through the saw against the fence, with the fence set about 1/32" bigger than the size I wanted (1/4" or 1/2"). This allows for slight misalignment of a big hunk of wood. Then I set the fence at the actual size desired, and ran each capstrip through again, but for this pass I used a featherboard, which holds the capstrip consistantly tight against the fence. The result was consistantly sized capstrips. Now, I didn't get out the micrometer and measure each piece, but I would say they were all within 1/64" , which is plenty good for what we're trying to achieve. After running all 100 or so pieces through the saw, I inspected each piece individually and found some sections where the grain slope was excessive or wavy, or had knots. I marked these sections and cut them out and used the cut out sections for kindling and set aside the good parts. The rest of the wood I determined to be acceptable to go into the wings that would eventually be carrying my butt (and likely my wife and kids) through the air. Remember that roughly one third of the wood in your wing ribs are pieces less than ten inches long - so you can use most of that capstrip that has a bad section somewhere in the middle. If you can find 60 or so pieces that are good for the entire 61" or 62", use those for your top and bottom capstrips. I had about 55 good pieces, which left me short 5 pieces (in order to make 30 ribs). So I took 10 pieces of offcuts that were each about three feet long, and mitred the ends to produce 1:13 scarf joints, and epoxied these together to produce 5 spliced capstrips. These scarfed joints get located behind the plywood gussets. In short, your wood is likely fine to produce your ribs with - just inspect each piece and use the best pieces where the best wood is required. I actually had very little scrap (because we get to use lots of little short pieces of wood in the ribs), and I figure I spent about CDN$120 for my capstrips (and about 10 hours of sawing). Bill C -----Original Message----- Sent: April 15, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Sources What I've come to learn is that if the end grain is vertical, then the grain cannot be straight on the side faces. But the specs say 4 faces. Yesterday I met with a friend building a Flizter and he told me to not be so fussy witht he capstrips because of all the gussets. My gut feeling is that I should be looking for compliant slope on the grain if the piece is quarter cut, or ignore if the grain is vertical if the top and bottom look OK. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 17, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: tire pressure
Oscar-- I know what you mean about tire pressure. I what I like to do is kneel down and sight down the tire tread at ant level. If you see all the treads not touching the floor (a smooth cement floor is best or wood) you have too much tire pressure. If you see all of the treads/sidewall sides touching and too much side buldge at the bottom---too little pressure. It is easy to see when those outboard treads touch and when they don't touch--just by eye. I've found that this works well then adjust as needed for the feel you want. Mike ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tire pressure
Cc: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com, pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 17, 2006
Oscar, I use 6.00 x 6 - 4 ply Airtrac tires, 28 Psi "cold inside hangar" Hot in the sun perhaps it reaches 30, and on a cold morning perhaps 25, but I never measured that just my logic. I did notice at lower pressures it is harder to roll. At 28 Psi it rolls effortlessly on concrete. Hans "Oscar Zuniga" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: tire pressure 04/17/2006 11:50 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com For you folks NOT running skinny tires... 41CC has 6.00x6 tires... what kind of pressure do you run in them? The tire charts are all over the place, depending on number of plies and so forth, but looks like for a gross weight in the 1100 lb. range, something like 25-30 psi. Sounds high to me which is why I'm asking the question. So, who is running what tire pressure in non-motorcycle tires, Cub style gear? Thanks! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 17, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
One other thing I forgot to mention was that I also used a zero-clearance insert in the table saw. I made mine from a piece of 1/4" phenolic sheet, cut to fit snugly into the saw, with set-screws to adjust flush with the saw table. When the insert is made to fit nicely, you lower the blade to below the insert, put the insert in place, start up the saw, and slowly raise the blade through the insert. This cuts a perfectly-sized slot in the insert, so there's no gap for thin strips of wood to fall into, and nice clean cuts are the result. Here's a link that might make what I just attempted to describe a little clearer: http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/ story/data/289.xml Bill C -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: April 17, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Sources --> Glenn, ... did all the rest of the cutting on my 32-year old 9" diameter blade table saw. The planing isn't really necessary, just use a good quality ripping blade. ... Bill C ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 17, 2006
Great response. You answered my question. I thought about the vertical grain and ring count problem and started to realize that if the grain is vertical you CAN'T have rings showing on the side. I guess I was looking so hard I couldn't see what was right in front of me. The section I was reading, entitled "Cross Grain" applies to cross grain, duh. I wasn't familiar with the terms cross grain and vertical grain when I first read 43.13, although I know about the properties associated with each. Thanks for replying with an appropriate restatement of the obvious. I kind of came to the realization that vertical grain would be the better choice of grains and had made up my mind to disregard the 4 face rule for inspecting my wood if grain is vertical. ...I still have 22 pieces with missing chunks and knots but at least I can rest assured that my decision to use stuff with no grain lines on the side was the right one. Well, it's all about learning and this was a good lesson. Thanks!!!! -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28975#28975 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Nadeau <nadeau(at)caldsl.com>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 17, 2006
Hi, I'm just starting my project and bought enough rough cut wood for ribs and tail. I tried some sample cuts on my table saw but didn't like the results. I need a joiner to square up the sides which I'll get when Sam sends me my refund check. (Just like my Dad always says). To cut up the cap strips use this trick with your table saw. Use two blades with a 1/2 or 1/4 spacer in between. It cuts all the pieces the same. Be sure to use a push stick! Mike Nadeau On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:54 PM|Apr 17, 2006, Glenn Thomas wrote: > > > Great response. You answered my question. I thought about the > vertical grain and ring count problem and started to realize that > if the grain is vertical you CAN'T have rings showing on the side. > I guess I was looking so hard I couldn't see what was right in > front of me. The section I was reading, entitled "Cross Grain" > applies to cross grain, duh. I wasn't familiar with the terms > cross grain and vertical grain when I first read 43.13, although I > know about the properties associated with each. Thanks for > replying with an appropriate restatement of the obvious. I kind of > came to the realization that vertical grain would be the better > choice of grains and had made up my mind to disregard the 4 face > rule for inspecting my wood if grain is vertical. ...I still have > 22 pieces with missing chunks and knots but at least I can rest > assured that my decision to use stuff with no grain lines on the > side was the right one. Well, it's all about learning and this was > a good lesso! > n. > > Thanks!!!! > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28975#28975 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Subject: Re: tire pressure
In a message dated 4/17/2006 11:54:26 AM Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: So, who is running what tire pressure in non-motorcycle tires, Cub style gear? I have Carlisle, Tube Type 8.00 - 6 Turf Tires from Wicks ($30 each), and they list max inflation at 20 psi. I keep them at about 15 psi. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: Wood Sources
Date: Apr 17, 2006
you need to use multiple feather boards, a good sharp 60 tooth thin kerf saw blade, cost about $50 or more, and a splitter. Run the wood through it at a constant feed rate. It this doesn't work then perhaps the arbor is not tracking strait and/or you have to much vibration and/or your fence is not aligned to the blade. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Nadeau" <nadeau(at)caldsl.com> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wood Sources > > Hi, > > I'm just starting my project and bought enough rough cut wood for ribs > and tail. I tried some sample cuts on my table saw but didn't like the > results. I need a joiner to square up the sides which I'll get when Sam > sends me my refund check. (Just like my Dad always says). To cut up the > cap strips use this trick with your table saw. Use two blades with a 1/2 > or 1/4 spacer in between. It cuts all the pieces the same. Be sure to > use a push stick! > > Mike Nadeau > > > On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:54 PM|Apr 17, 2006, Glenn Thomas wrote: > >> >> >> Great response. You answered my question. I thought about the vertical >> grain and ring count problem and started to realize that if the grain is >> vertical you CAN'T have rings showing on the side. I guess I was >> looking so hard I couldn't see what was right in front of me. The >> section I was reading, entitled "Cross Grain" applies to cross grain, >> duh. I wasn't familiar with the terms cross grain and vertical grain >> when I first read 43.13, although I know about the properties >> associated with each. Thanks for replying with an appropriate >> restatement of the obvious. I kind of came to the realization that >> vertical grain would be the better choice of grains and had made up my >> mind to disregard the 4 face rule for inspecting my wood if grain is >> vertical. ...I still have 22 pieces with missing chunks and knots but >> at least I can rest assured that my decision to use stuff with no grain >> lines on the side was the right one. Well, it's all about learning and >> this was a good lesso! >> n. >> >> Thanks!!!! >> >> -------- >> Glenn Thomas >> N????? >> http://www.flyingwood.com >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=28975#28975 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again...
Date: Apr 17, 2006
Mark, I spoke with the FAA local DAR today. And he thinks that the Pientenpol could be registered as an ELSA, but he also said that a Sport Pilot can fly any aircraft that fits the category less than 1320 lbs.etc. I can use it for Sport Pilot instruction, and can get signed off for night flights, use on skis, floats etc. as needed as an endorsement for SP. He is not sure how this would affect a normal CFI. I am looking into becoming a SP CFI so this could work. RS -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Blackwell Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Yes you can charge for instruction in an airplane provided by the student. You just can't rent an ELSA. I believe you can rent an SLSA. If you registered it as an regular experimental and put lights ect on it, you would have no night restriction or altitude restrictions on the airplane. As an ELSA you would course how many Pieters fly at night? For the nature of the EAA young eagles program, it would be a different looking airplane that should be a ride they won't forget. You might even consider it long term advertising because it was a simple flight like that, that started an interest in aviation that one day lead me to get to an airport and learn to fly. Sad thing is most of that type of work goes unrewarded in a society that is so mobile. By the time that the kids you give a ride to can afford to start, they have gone off to college and found a job somewhere that usually isn't back home. Still worth doing in my opinion and a whole lot of fun. I would be interested in what your FSDO tells you and their overall attitude toward LSA. Around here its name is mud. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Stapleton <mailto:foto(at)alaska.net> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:14 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Mark, I have no intention of charging for the rides, I want to do it on behalf the EAA program for free. As for the ELSA program and the FAA, it is my understanding that you can charge for instruction while flying an ELSA. While the category is very restrictive (ie.no night flights, and no flights over 10,000 ft etc.) it is our mission to advance interest in flying and I think the Pietenpol will attract attention and can be used as an example. Now, whether I can find the time to work on this project and finish it, is a far deeper question on my mind. Thanks for your reply I will let you know what I am going to do, after I talk with the local FSDO about it. Regards, Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Blackwell Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Rob there would be no reason to if you are going to build it. Registering it as an ELSA would get you out of the 51% requirement for building. I also think that the factory at that point can have maintenance training courses that can certify owners to do maintenance, but that might be only SLSA. If you build it under the amature built, you get the Repairmans Certificate if you build at least 51% without any additional paperwork or training. If the aircraft meets Light Sport Aircraft specs, then it can be operated by an properly certified pilot. That includes LS pilots with the proper sign offs and certifications. Neither ELSA or just experimental will allow any commercial operations so you couldn't charge for the rides you would give. SLSA allows only flight training if memory is correct. As far as asking the FAA, the FAA here is pretty set against most anything LSA. Its not surprising really when you think about how the organzation is structured. Asking someone to sign off an ELSA might be the first one that inspector has done and they don't like signing off things that they haven't done before. A more conventional experimental is something most have done for a while and would raise no paperwork concerns or red flags that could get them in trouble. If anyone else could think of a reason why he should even ask about it, Im all ears as well cause I looked at the same thing. (Only just for me not giving rides) I couldn't find a single reason why ELSA would be any better for a scratch built airplane than experimental. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Stapleton <mailto:foto(at)alaska.net> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Alaska Pietenpol project begins again... Hello, I am new to the list, but have been monitoring it and reading about the various projects and advice. Nice. Tuesday I made the decision to take over Rob Spoo's Pietenpol project and will be no doubt asking for advice from time to time. Does anyone know if a Pietenpol has been registered as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft so that it can be used for instruction and flown on a Sport Pilot certificate? Pete Marsh and I run a Sport Pilot instruction center at Birchwood Airport and we want to use the Pietenpol to give rides to youth interested in aviation. I haven't asked the FAA about this yet, but wondered if there were any messages in the string on this. RS Rob Stapleton Photojournalist Anchorage Alaska 907-336-9425 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Science-engineering and accuracy
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com>
I have enjoyed the engineering banter towards tire pressure a great deal. The method employed by Michael Cuy is referred to as "Eyeball Engineering" in my circles and I have seen it contradict and even correct factual number crunching on occasion. There's times when you can just tell something isn't right without being able to point at what that something is. Factual number crunching is amazing, and I see and enjoy its use, but it sure makes me smile when simple common sense and eyeball engineering makes it pail. With accuracy and the construction of a Pietenpol, I constantly remind myself that farm-kids in the 1930s used to successfully build and fly these ships. Certainly doesn't excuse me from striving to do the best I can - but when I'm looking for thousands of an inch precision (used to be a machinist) I have to chuckle and wonder if those farm kids even knew what a micrometer was. That's where gas-pipes for axles and the third leaf of a Model-A front suspension comes from for parts - eyeball engineering again and more common sense than I was born with! (dang it). Bill Sayre ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Science-engineering and accuracy
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I'm continually amazed by the precision some people try to acheive when building airplanes. They would possibly be surprised to learn that when i was working on the design of the F-16 back in the mid '70's, the standard tolerance for airframe components was +/- .031" . That's +/- 1/32". Not too terribly precise. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sayre, William G Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Science-engineering and accuracy I have enjoyed the engineering banter towards tire pressure a great deal. The method employed by Michael Cuy is referred to as "Eyeball Engineering" in my circles and I have seen it contradict and even correct factual number crunching on occasion. There's times when you can just tell something isn't right without being able to point at what that something is. Factual number crunching is amazing, and I see and enjoy its use, but it sure makes me smile when simple common sense and eyeball engineering makes it pail. With accuracy and the construction of a Pietenpol, I constantly remind myself that farm-kids in the 1930s used to successfully build and fly these ships. Certainly doesn't excuse me from striving to do the best I can - but when I'm looking for thousands of an inch precision (used to be a machinist) I have to chuckle and wonder if those farm kids even knew what a micrometer was. That's where gas-pipes for axles and the third leaf of a Model-A front suspension comes from for parts - eyeball engineering again and more common sense than I was born with! (dang it). Bill Sayre Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kirk Huizenga <kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org>
Subject: Tail bracing turnbuckles
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Is there any reason to pick one placement of the turnbuckles on the tail bracing wires over another. In other words, does it make any difference if the turnbuckle is on the V stab fitting or out on the H Stab fitting. The plans show them out on the H stab, but it doesn't seem like it would make any difference to me. Thanks for the input Kirk Kirk Huizenga Community Expert kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org 651.482.8203 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: Ken <av8orken(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Science-engineering and accuracy
When I build I try for 1/8" which four times more error than you were building. Ken Phillips, Jack wrote: > > I'm continually amazed by the precision some people try to acheive when > building airplanes. They would possibly be surprised to learn that when > i was working on the design of the F-16 back in the mid '70's, the > standard tolerance for airframe components was +/- .031" . That's +/- > 1/32". Not too terribly precise. > > Jack Phillips > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sayre, > William G > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:25 AM > To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Science-engineering and accuracy > > > > I have enjoyed the engineering banter towards tire pressure a great > deal. The method employed by Michael Cuy is referred to as "Eyeball > Engineering" in my circles and I have seen it contradict and even > correct factual number crunching on occasion. There's times when you > can just tell something isn't right without being able to point at what > that something is. Factual number crunching is amazing, and I see and > enjoy its use, but it sure makes me smile when simple common sense and > eyeball engineering makes it pail. > > With accuracy and the construction of a Pietenpol, I constantly remind > myself that farm-kids in the 1930s used to successfully build and fly > these ships. Certainly doesn't excuse me from striving to do the best I > can - but when I'm looking for thousands of an inch precision (used to > be a machinist) I have to chuckle and wonder if those farm kids even > knew what a micrometer was. That's where gas-pipes for axles and the > third leaf of a Model-A front suspension comes from for parts - eyeball > engineering again and more common sense than I was born with! (dang > it). > > Bill Sayre > > > > Working together. For life.(sm) > _________________________________________________ > proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Subject: Re: Science-engineering and accuracy
Bill, If you're talking about accuracy, may I point out from memory that BHP recommended the center leaf of a Model T front spring. That would be #4 as there were 7 leaves. Up or down #4 is the center. Submitted by a southern smartass for the sake of accuracy. Still in Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tail bracing turnbuckles
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I put mine on the Vertical Stab fittings (and the fuselage fittings) for a couple of reasons: 1 The less weight outboard the faster the roll rate (at 35 degrees per second, you don't want to do anything to DECREASE the roll rate!) 2 More importantly, it is easier to safety wire the turnbuckles with the larger angle between the cable and the vertical stab, than between the cable and the horizontal stab. Jack Phillips Enjoying the good flying weather and blowing the dust out of the cockpits in Icarus Plummet -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kirk Huizenga Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail bracing turnbuckles Is there any reason to pick one placement of the turnbuckles on the tail bracing wires over another. In other words, does it make any difference if the turnbuckle is on the V stab fitting or out on the H Stab fitting. The plans show them out on the H stab, but it doesn't seem like it would make any difference to me. Thanks for the input Kirk Kirk Huizenga Community Expert kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org 651.482.8203 Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tail bracing turnbuckles
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Kirk, Here is my 0.02 worth; I used 1/16 cable with turnbuckels at H Stab. The V Stab fitting has no room for turn buckles or shackles as two cables are attached on one fitting with holes very close together The cable goes direct through the fitting hole (with a AN 100 thimble) and no shackle. The H stab connection is the forked end of the turnbuckel and corresponding clevis pin Hans Kirk Huizenga <kirk.huizenga@mo undsviewschools.o To rg> pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent by: cc owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron Subject ics.com Pietenpol-List: Tail bracing turnbuckles 04/18/2006 11:47 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Is there any reason to pick one placement of the turnbuckles on the tail bracing wires over another. In other words, does it make any difference if the turnbuckle is on the V stab fitting or out on the H Stab fitting. The plans show them out on the H stab, but it doesn't seem like it would make any difference to me. Thanks for the input Kirk Kirk Huizenga Community Expert kirk.huizenga(at)moundsviewschools.org 651.482.8203 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Science-engineering and accuracy
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Having said that most people try to get too precise, there are areas where precision is good. Rigging the wings is one such area.. Fuselage alignment is another (Tony Bingelis once said that building an airplane is just one exercise in alignment after another). When I rigged my wings I used a surveyor's transit and managed to get the wingtips within 1/16" of each other (not difficult, just tedious and takes several people). For that I was rewarded with a plane that flies wings level, and will fly hands off pretty well (it won't fly "Feet Off" for more than a couple of seconds though, like any Pietenpol). No external trim tabs required. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Science-engineering and accuracy When I build I try for 1/8" which four times more error than you were building. Ken Phillips, Jack wrote: > > I'm continually amazed by the precision some people try to acheive when > building airplanes. They would possibly be surprised to learn that when > i was working on the design of the F-16 back in the mid '70's, the > standard tolerance for airframe components was +/- .031" . That's +/- > 1/32". Not too terribly precise. > > Jack Phillips > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sayre, > William G > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:25 AM > To: pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Science-engineering and accuracy > > > > I have enjoyed the engineering banter towards tire pressure a great > deal. The method employed by Michael Cuy is referred to as "Eyeball > Engineering" in my circles and I have seen it contradict and even > correct factual number crunching on occasion. There's times when you > can just tell something isn't right without being able to point at what > that something is. Factual number crunching is amazing, and I see and > enjoy its use, but it sure makes me smile when simple common sense and > eyeball engineering makes it pail. > > With accuracy and the construction of a Pietenpol, I constantly remind > myself that farm-kids in the 1930s used to successfully build and fly > these ships. Certainly doesn't excuse me from striving to do the best I > can - but when I'm looking for thousands of an inch precision (used to > be a machinist) I have to chuckle and wonder if those farm kids even > knew what a micrometer was. That's where gas-pipes for axles and the > third leaf of a Model-A front suspension comes from for parts - eyeball > engineering again and more common sense than I was born with! (dang > it). > > Bill Sayre > > > > Working together. For life.(sm) > _________________________________________________ > > This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete > > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - Svenska: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flying and Glider
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Hello everyone I'm new to the list. This is my first posting. The question I have may have been covered in the past in this forum, but I haven't come across it, so here goes. Is it possible to construct an aircamper or skyscout from the plans found in the old Flying and Glider Manuals? There are lots of missing dimensions and contradicting info. in these plans and instructions. Do the later plans address enough of these problems to justify their purchase, or are they simply larger scale drawings? I'm currently drafting out the plans on AutoCad to check the dimensions and create full size plots for jigs. Will this be enough to begin and complete one of these planes? Brown Gravy aka: Manny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29192#29192 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Flying and Glider
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
It is quite possible to build an Air Camper from the Flying & Glider Manual plans, but I suspect you can build a better airplane more easily from the "Improved" plans of 1934. There are some differences structurally, and you have to figure Bernard wouldn't have gone to the trouble to redesign it for no reason. The plans are only $75, and include such niceties as the 3-piece wing design, as well as the design of a motor mount for Continental A65's. Of course, if you are planning to use the Model A Ford, you won't need that. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brown Gravy Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying and Glider Hello everyone I'm new to the list. This is my first posting. The question I have may have been covered in the past in this forum, but I haven't come across it, so here goes. Is it possible to construct an aircamper or skyscout from the plans found in the old Flying and Glider Manuals? There are lots of missing dimensions and contradicting info. in these plans and instructions. Do the later plans address enough of these problems to justify their purchase, or are they simply larger scale drawings? I'm currently drafting out the plans on AutoCad to check the dimensions and create full size plots for jigs. Will this be enough to begin and complete one of these planes? Brown Gravy aka: Manny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29192#29192 Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Flying and Glider
Cc: "Brown Gravy" Though I bought my Piet ready-made, I have access to the plans from Don Pietenpol, to the Flying and Glider Manual, and to the Grega plans. My opinion is that not purchasing the plans is a false economy. They are well-done and clear. I've used them a lot to figure out how the plane was built, where I need to closely inspect at annual and at every preflight, what I need to watch out for if modifications are contemplated. I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to build from the FGM solely. > >Hello everyone >I'm new to the list. This is my first posting. >The question I have may have been covered in the past in this forum, >but I haven't come across it, so here goes. Is it possible to >construct an aircamper or skyscout from the plans found in the old >Flying and Glider Manuals? There are lots of missing dimensions and >contradicting info. in these plans and instructions. Do the later >plans address enough of these problems to justify their purchase, or >are they simply larger scale drawings? >I'm currently drafting out the plans on AutoCad to check the >dimensions and create full size plots for jigs. Will this be enough >to begin and complete one of these planes? > >Brown Gravy >aka: Manny -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: engineering, tire pressures, ant's-eye views
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Okay, to put this engineering thing to bed, there is a picture here: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/P4150001.JPG The picture shows 41CC on its (currently underinflated) tires, showing 100% of its tire treads contacting the hangar floor, plus some of the sidewall is slouching onto the floor too. So... I wanted to inflate them but wasn't sure how much. I will inflate them to 28 psi to start with, eyeball from the ant's eye view to see how the contact patch looks, make a mental snapshot of that, and give it a shot. Thanks to everybody who commented, serious or otherwise! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet Project Available
From: "Launchpad" <launchpad(at)chartermi.net>
Date: Apr 18, 2006
I am new to this group and am just at the first stage of building, but geeze Corky.. Looks like you have a great following. Now I hope you stay on so I can learn of you like everyone else has. ** Corky, will you please be my building sponser? ** Brian Johnson, Brighton ,Michigan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29275#29275 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Subject: Re: Piet Project Available
Pieters, Don't be so damn fatalistic. I don't plan going anywhere until it happens. About winning the war. Let's be real technically correct here. I held up my hand and said "I Do. Then Yes Sir, No Sir and what they ordered me to do. Like 8 million others. That's it in a sentence. I was lucky. Have a bit of a leg ailment which seems to be getting worse. Can't stand very long without pain. But the main reason for this course of action is to relieve our children (8) of having to sort out the good junk from the bad junk and then trash it all in the same can when that time comes. I have a taker for NX311CC and it should be relocated to Georgetown, Texas next week Isabelle my bride and I appreciate the interest of the list. Wish I could meet each and everyone of you personally. Might try. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 18, 2006
Subject: Re: Piet Project Available
Brian, It's obvious that you are new to this list. I have tempered the last few years but the thought of sponsering a Michigan Yankee may not set too well with my upbringings. Afterall it was tough marrying an Illinois bride but you might be asking a bit too much. I'll sleep on it. Corky, a native Texan forever in Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 18, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Flying and Glider
Also the rib bracing in the Piet FGM is not right. The one in the later Sky Scout FGM is changed. The last diagonal after the rear spar is opposite, as it is in the plan set as well. There was an incident with one plane in a steep slip and hard pull-out that folded part of the trailing edge which prompted that change. If I hadn't bought all the manuals I would have built all my ribs the wrong way. It would be wise to buy the plans. Clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flying and Glider > > Though I bought my Piet ready-made, I have access to the plans from > Don Pietenpol, to the Flying and Glider Manual, and to the Grega > plans. My opinion is that not purchasing the plans is a false > economy. They are well-done and clear.> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flying and Glider
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Oh I didn't notice that one. I have been referring to the Sky Scout drawings for the wing bracing, so I hopefully I've drawn it correctly. The wing section shown for the Air Camper isn't complete enough to construct the ribs. That's the reason for checking the Sky Scout drawings. The ordinates given for the airfoil plot out in a less than smooth curve to put it mildly, so I searched online for a more carefully composed set of points to enter into CAD. The Holcomb's Aerodrome web page gives a set of ordinates that create a smooth curve when a spline is drawn between then. They provide the ordingates in either XLS or text format. If anyone is interested here's the page: http://www.airminded.net/piet/piet.html Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29407#29407 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Model A radiator location
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Has anyone tried an alternate location for the radiator on Model A powered Piets? Is it possible to locate it below the engine at an angle that follows the original cowling design? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29411#29411 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flying and Glider
Hard core Piet people would say that the un-smooth curves of the Piet airfoil are the reason that it flys so well and any change will detract from its flying characteristics. On 4/19/06, Brown Gravy wrote: > > mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com> > > Oh I didn't notice that one. I have been referring to the Sky Scout > drawings for the wing bracing, so I hopefully I've drawn it correctly. > The wing section shown for the Air Camper isn't complete enough to > construct the ribs. That's the reason for checking the Sky Scout drawings. > The ordinates given for the airfoil plot out in a less than smooth curve > to put it mildly, so I searched online for a more carefully composed set of > points to enter into CAD. The Holcomb's Aerodrome web page gives a set of > ordinates that create a smooth curve when a spline is drawn between then. > They provide the ordingates in either XLS or text format. If anyone is > interested here's the page: http://www.airminded.net/piet/piet.html > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D29407#29407 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Model A radiator location
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
I believe Jim Malley split it in half and mounted below the cowl. Jack Textor Has anyone tried an alternate location for the radiator on Model A powered Piets? Is it possible to locate it below the engine at an angle that follows the original cowling design? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29411#29411 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
I am sure you can. As long as you keep the engine flooded with coolant you might need to add a expansion tank/reservoir above the engine. This will add weight and complexity. The radiator will need to be fully closed (no fill cap), like an oil cooler. Can not use a standard automotive radiator. BHP applied the KISS principle despite the increase in drag. Simple = safety Personally I fly the air-cooled Corvair, slightly more complex than a Continental, but cheap and less complicated than any water cooled engine. Hans "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy@y ahoo.com> To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Model A radiator location 04/19/2006 09:52 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Has anyone tried an alternate location for the radiator on Model A powered Piets? Is it possible to locate it below the engine at an angle that follows the original cowling design? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29411#29411 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Science-engineering and accuracy
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: "Sayre, William G" <william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com>
Corky, Dang it - I knew when I typed it I was wrong but I'm not near prints and I'm too lazy to have looked it up. I figured the whiper-snappers on the list wouldn't notice and was hoping the wise-guys would let it pass - but noooooo! You had to say something! This is proof positive of the knowledge and experience you provide to the list. Of course I don't know your kids but if they're like most, they won't know the good junk from the bad junk anyway. I wish you would keep building, but respect your judgment. Please stay on the list and add your flavor - I've enjoyed it! Bill in Washington State ============================= Bill, If you're talking about accuracy, may I point out from memory that BHP recommended the center leaf of a Model T front spring. That would be #4 as there were 7 leaves. Up or down #4 is the center. Submitted by a southern smartass for the sake of accuracy. Still in Louisiana ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Model A radiator location
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Here's a Piet currently for sale with a radiator installed below the engine. Now, the ad says it's a Vega engine (not a Model A), but the principle is the same. Looks good to me - nice classic Pietenpol profile, with the added feature of being able to look straight ahead. http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=100034 Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
That's what I had in mind. But before I decide the plane should revolve around this alternate cooling arrangement I should ask: Is the lack of forward visability due to the radiator mounted above the engine a real issue? I like the look of the radiator above the engine. It works with the lines of the plane. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29477#29477 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
I would think that the radiator up top would present a huge drag factor. Brown Gravy wrote: > > > That's what I had in mind. But before I decide the plane should revolve around this alternate cooling arrangement I should ask: Is the lack of forward visability due to the radiator mounted above the engine a real issue? I like the look of the radiator above the engine. It works with the lines of the plane. > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29477#29477 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Flying a Pietenpol powered by a 65 Continental, I can tell you that forward visibility with a radiator up there would not be significantly worse. On the ground, you can't see anything forward anyway. In flight, who needs to see straight ahead? Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brown Gravy Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A radiator location That's what I had in mind. But before I decide the plane should revolve around this alternate cooling arrangement I should ask: Is the lack of forward visability due to the radiator mounted above the engine a real issue? I like the look of the radiator above the engine. It works with the lines of the plane. Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: lack of vis. with radiator
having flown a Piet with a radiator up front of the passenger seat I can tell you that it really is no factor as far as final approach and landing goes. The field of view is so wide and the radiator so narrow in comparison that it really didn't present any problems for me. Now flaring correctly for the heavier Model A Ford up front was a bit unusual for me, but otherwise if you've flown taildraggers much or get some good taildragger training you soon realize that general peripheral vision is more important than seeing right down the white dashed stripe. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: a wide-shouldered passenger
now this will screw with you....having a passenger up front that is kinda tall and with wide shoulders. I always ask people to shift to one side or the other on final----preferably the right side so they don't interfere with the throttle on the left side. Reason number 14 for taking petit ladies only for rides.... Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
FWIW, I've thoroughly enjoyed the two rides I was given in Ford-powered Piets at Brodhead, but I must say, after about 10 minutes the radiator blocking the forward view was annoying. It may be less of an issue from the pilot's perspective. > >...In flight, who needs to see straight ahead? > >Jack Phillips That's what Lindbergh said, and look where it got him! ;) -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Atlanta, GA 30322 Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision http://www.molvis.org/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Model A engine source?
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Model A engine source? Anyone. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29495#29495 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Schuerrs" <schuerrs(at)charter.net>
Subject: doug fir
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Is anyone or has anyone used doug fir lately? Since I'm a carpenter I spend a lot of time in lumberyards, I ask everyone if they can get spruce. I also look at the doug fir to see what it looks like. I've found that 20' or so 2x4's might have some useable wood a lot of the time. I was just trying to touch base with someone who has used it to see what they've done. Thanks Steve ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 19, 2006
From: "jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: doug fir
Hello Steve, My entire airframe is Doug Fir. I got it at the local lumberyard who allowed my friend and me to select the wood I wanted. It was floor material and they had a large selection of tight grain, 8 to 12 per inch. The only other wood in the airframe is the ash crosspieces and the plywood which is mahogony marine ply. jimboyer(at)hughes.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flying and Glider CAD Rib
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Hi There is a cad drawing of the piet airfoil in the flie section of Matronics piet section. I downloaded it and checked the chord widith and that seemed to be OK. Not sure which airfoil it is exaxtly but it sure looks like a Pietenpol to me. Perhaps somebody else might know. I have an old Air Progress from about 1965 that has a good drawing of the pietenpol. I originally bought my plans back in 1965 from Bernie Pietenpol but sold them a few years later. I knew nothing at the time and had no tools or skills. I now have skills and tools but seem hard pressed to be able to put myself in the same place as my stuff. Continuing to monitor the list and gather info and will probably buy the plans again soon. Steve G >From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying and Glider >Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:41:04 -0700 > > > >Oh I didn't notice that one. I have been referring to the Sky Scout >drawings for the wing bracing, so I hopefully I've drawn it correctly. >The wing section shown for the Air Camper isn't complete enough to >construct the ribs. That's the reason for checking the Sky Scout drawings. >The ordinates given for the airfoil plot out in a less than smooth curve to >put it mildly, so I searched online for a more carefully composed set of >points to enter into CAD. The Holcomb's Aerodrome web page gives a set of >ordinates that create a smooth curve when a spline is drawn between then. >They provide the ordingates in either XLS or text format. If anyone is >interested here's the page: http://www.airminded.net/piet/piet.html > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29407#29407 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "MICHAEL SILVIUS" <M.Silvius(at)worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: doug fir
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Jim: I am curious what is your empty weight? michael silvius scarborough, maine ----- Original Message ----- From: jimboyer(at)hughes.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: doug fir Hello Steve, My entire airframe is Doug Fir. I got it at the local lumberyard who allowed my friend and me to select the wood I wanted. It was floor material and they had a large selection of tight grain, 8 to 12 per inch. The only other wood in the airframe is the ash crosspieces and the plywood which is mahogony marine ply. jimboyer(at)hughes.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flying and Glider CAD Rib
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Tonight I'll overlay the points from the FGM with those from http://www.airminded.net/piet/piet.html . I'll see if they match. They airfoil looks the same, but subtle differences may make a great deal of difference. Does anyone know what the allowable tolerances are for an airfoil? Manny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29523#29523 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PIETLARS29(at)wmconnect.com
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Subject: Re: (OT) Moving to Orlando, FL?
Hi, I live near Orlando, (outside Tavares which is about 35 Miles NW of ORL), and have lived in this area for some 20 years. The comments your received are pretty much correct exept for the major problem; this area is growing like crazy and traffic is a real problem. You might want to consider your commute to your work as a real first priority. The info on the North of Orlando was OK but dated. Orlando Executive and Sanford are too congested; Sanford has international airline traffic and the Comair academy and both are all paved runways. Bob White and Mid-Florida, (Eustis) are the two public grass strips I know about. Hangar rents are not cheap, Leesburg (city owned) just built some more T hangars and I think its 250/mo or more. What used to be Orlando Country, now Orlando North is being totally rebuilt; hopes to have upscale large 'condo' hangars hotel and etc. A new strip near Zellwood has a 3000' paved strip and 14 new hangars, big ones that can hold 4 SEL; think they go for 500/mo. You will have to check things out for yourself when you get here. You can contact me anytime for more questions. Regards, Lou Larsen PS just finishe the permanent engine bearers (oak) for my "A" mount and started on the cowling sheet metal. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <GeneRambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Sure they have, the sky scout has it mounted on the lower cowl exactly as you suggest. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Brown Gravy<mailto:mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A radiator location Has anyone tried an alternate location for the radiator on Model A powered Piets? Is it possible to locate it below the engine at an angle that follows the original cowling design? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D29411#29411> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <GeneRambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: lack of vis. with radiator
Date: Apr 19, 2006
in a tailwheel, if you can see the white dashed stripe, you've got bigger problems than the radiator location ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D Cuy<mailto:Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: lack of vis. with radiator having flown a Piet with a radiator up front of the passenger seat I can tell you that it really is no factor as far as final approach and landing goes. The field of view is so wide and the radiator so narrow in comparison that it really didn't present any problems for me. Now flaring correctly for the heavier Model A Ford up front was a bit unusual for me, but otherwise if you've flown taildraggers much or get some good taildragger training you soon realize that general peripheral vision is more important than seeing right down the white dashed stripe. Mike C. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing Rib Jig
From: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3(at)netscape.net>
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Hi, I am new to this list and this is my first post. I will be starting my Pietenpol project soon and as I don't want to re-invent the wheel again, I was wondering if anyone of you previous builders had a wing rib jig that you were done with and would be willing to sell. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Bryan Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29561#29561 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Alan Lyscars" <alyscars(at)maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Dear Bryan, Now, whoa there big feller, 'cause the thing you DON'T want to be buying is your tooling! If they're not in your library already, go git a copy of Tony Bengelis' construction manuals. A lot of us wish Tony was with us today, but at least he left us his written word. You're going to find, I think, that when you feel confident enough to create your own tooling (rib jig, fuselage jig, etc.) to make parts for your ship you will truly be a homebuilder. Most of us on this list will assist you in any way we can. Otherwise, go buy a kitplane! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3(at)netscape.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Rib Jig > > Hi, I am new to this list and this is my first post. I will be starting my Pietenpol project soon and as I don't want to re-invent the wheel again, I was wondering if anyone of you previous builders had a wing rib jig that you were done with and would be willing to sell. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Bryan > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29561#29561 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "James Dallas" <BEC176(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
Date: Apr 19, 2006
Not only that, but what happens further down the road when you accidentally damage a rib and you've got rid of the one piece of tooling that's going to get you going again. Jim Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Lyscars<mailto:alyscars(at)maine.rr.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Rib Jig Dear Bryan, Now, whoa there big feller, 'cause the thing you DON'T want to be buying is your tooling! If they're not in your library already, go git a copy of Tony Bengelis' construction manuals. A lot of us wish Tony was with us today, but at least he left us his written word. You're going to find, I think, that when you feel confident enough to create your own tooling (rib jig, fuselage jig, etc.) to make parts for your ship you will truly be a homebuilder. Most of us on this list will assist you in any way we can. Otherwise, go buy a kitplane! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3(at)netscape.net<mailto:plncrzy3(at)netscape.net>> To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Rib Jig > > Hi, I am new to this list and this is my first post. I will be starting my Pietenpol project soon and as I don't want to re-invent the wheel again, I was wondering if anyone of you previous builders had a wing rib jig that you were done with and would be willing to sell. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Bryan > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D29561#29561> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
In a message dated 4/19/2006 2:20:49 PM Central Standard Time, mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com writes: Is the lack of forward visability due to the radiator mounted above the engine a real issue? I've got about 23 hours of flying behind the radiator of a Model A engine, and it is not an issue, as far as visibility is concerened. However,I had my radiator custom built to be the width between the fwd cabane struts, and about 1/3 of the way down, leaving some visibility under the radiator. The top tank was behind the leading edge of the wing, in a cavity that I built in the bottom of the wing. I have lots of pics & text on this page of my web site:
http://nx770cg.com/ModelAEngine.html Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
Not in my FGM. The pics and drawings show the same radiator as the Piet. There is a pic or two showing an experimental under-engine settup but Bernard rejected it. I'm not sure where I've seen them though. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A radiator location Sure they have, the sky scout has it mounted on the lower cowl exactly as you suggest. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Brown Gravy To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A radiator location Has anyone tried an alternate location for the radiator on Model A powered Piets? Is it possible to locate it below the engine at an angle that follows the original cowling design? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D29411#29411 http://www.mat=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dp; Email List ; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dnbsp; generous bsp; title=3Dhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ">http://www.matronics.com/c=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing Rib Jig
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Hi Bryan, I would recommend that you build your own rib jig, and keep it after you've finished building ribs. Some day you may have to repair a damaged rib and it sure does help to have the original jig. For that reason I doubt many builders would part with their jigs. I've kept all the major tooling that I had to make to build mine, although I've loaned my engine mount jig to another Piet builder. I know where it is, and if I need it I can get it back from him. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of plncrzy Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Rib Jig Hi, I am new to this list and this is my first post. I will be starting my Pietenpol project soon and as I don't want to re-invent the wheel again, I was wondering if anyone of you previous builders had a wing rib jig that you were done with and would be willing to sell. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Bryan Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: FTLovley(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Subject: Re: Model A radiator location
The radiator that Bernard mounted under the engine was used only on the Model A powered Scout...it worked really well... I restored the airplane about 40 years ago and it is still flying today. I doubt that it could be made to work on an Air Camper, because the firewall is vertical...on the Model A Scout, the firewall slanted back, allowing the cooling air from the radiator to travel up and back to exit through louvers on the top cowl ahead of the instrument panel. Bernard didn't "reject" the radiator installation...he just didn't build any more single place airplanes. Forrest Lovley Jordan MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: stones and radiators
I would think that anyone installing a lower cowl radiator on a Piet might be more prone to encounter pebble and stone damage (leaks) picked up by the prop on hard surface runways or gravel areas. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing rib jig
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: "Dan Loegering" <danl(at)odayequipment.com>
Bryan, As a "low time" builder myself, I'll echo the other comments that have already been posted. Just think of building the jig as practice for building the actual part - if you don't get the jig just right, you can easily pull off the offending block and reposition it. And you don't have to throw out any true airplane parts! Or you could partner up with one or two more like minded individuals in your area and convince them that they need to build an airplane also. Then you just share the jigs - we are soon to have three projects at various stages of construction in the upper mid-west (Fargo, ND area). They will all be built off the same set of jigs - so far two sets of ribs are done, two horizontal stabilizers, 1.5 sets of elevators, 1 vertical stab, and I am working on the rudder jig now. I have so far built the jigs and my parts, then I pass the jig on to the next builder (Ken Heide) along with my notes on how the parts went together. This gives him the advantage of being able to look at a completed part, and I can also make suggestions or point out where the jig didn't work exactly right (What do you mean the aluminum angle blocks aren't a 90 Deg. angle?). The third builder hasn't started yet, but he has committed to ordering rib wood during our next purchase. This also saves on shipping costs... Another thing to think about - Building the jig is a very small percentage of time when compared to the total construction time. Currently I have about 140 hours into the project - rib set +2 is complete, horizontal stab, vertical stab, and elevators are done. Of that 140 hours, only about 12 were spent in building the five jigs. Lots of ways to build a jig - if you are just building one plane, most of the jigs can simply be a series of nails driven into the top of your building table. If you want to keep all of your jigs or share them with another builder, use 3/4" ply, or another similar material - I am using 5/8" laminated shelf boards for my jigs, and then just a series of wood blocks screwed down or 3/4" aluminum angle blocks screwed to the shelf (had to go back and shim all of these to get the angle correct though!). To wrap up - just jump in and start making parts! And have fun... Dan Loegering Fargo, ND Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Rib Jig From: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3(at)netscape.net> Hi, I am new to this list and this is my first post. I will be starting my Pietenpol project soon and as I don't want to re-invent the wheel again, I was wondering if anyone of you previous builders had a wing rib jig that you were done with and would be willing to sell. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Bryan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29561#29561 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Model A radiator location
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
I think this shows an original photo of that plane (N12941) - no visible rad in the picture. http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/My_Homepage_Files/Page20.html Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FTLovley(at)aol.com Sent: April 20, 2006 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A radiator location The radiator that Bernard mounted under the engine was used only on the Model A powered Scout...it worked really well... I restored the airplane about 40 years ago and it is still flying today. I doubt that it could be made to work on an Air Camper, because the firewall is vertical...on the Model A Scout, the firewall slanted back, allowing the cooling air from the radiator to travel up and back to exit through louvers on the top cowl ahead of the instrument panel. Bernard didn't "reject" the radiator installation...he just didn't build any more single place airplanes. Forrest Lovley Jordan MN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Subject: Re: Wing rib jig
A thought came to my ole mind the other night as I lay awake Piet dreaming. I doubt this has ever happened to you!!!! IF I were to ever build another rib jig I would use 3/4 plywood at least 18 in X 72 in. Use scrap capstrip nailed as a guide for your router. With a 1/4 in bit, rout your cap strip positions about 3/8 in deep. Talk about accuracy and uniformity. I think it would be better than those surface cams and blocks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: "jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: doug fir
Hi Michael, I haven't got a way to measure the weight yet but as soon as the rains stop here in Northern Dampifornia I can get it out of the garage and use a bathroom scale. I'll let you know, maybe this weekend its supposed to be nice for a change. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: Ben Williams <benw(at)pdi.com>
Subject: another video (doh!)
http://www.break.com/movies/planebeach.html Ben ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: harvey rule <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Subject: Re: another video (doh!)
All he or she had to do was cut the throttle to nothing and that plane would have come to a stop in the water and no damage would have occured.As I see it ;it was totalled by the time it came to a stop on the beach and they were lucky they didn't kill someone including themselves.Then again maybe the pilot was wishing he were dead after doing this! Ben Williams wrote: > > > http://www.break.com/movies/planebeach.html > > Ben > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Here's the rib comparison
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Here's an AutoCAD drawing containing an overlay of the ordinates found on http://www.airminded.net/piet/piet.html and the dimensons given in the F&G manual. Unless I totally screwed up entering the dimensions from the F&G manual they are either less than perfect or it's a brilliant airfoil of some sort. You all take a look. The cayn line with the yellow circles is the F&G airfoil and the Red spline was generated from the ordinates found at the above site. AutoCAD drawing viewers are easy to find as freeware. I tested the drawing file with the free viewer found at http://www.infograph.com/products/dwgviewer/ (remember you take responsability for you own downloads). Anyway, the drawing file is attached. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29689#29689 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: Ken <av8orken(at)adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: another video (doh!)
Totalled?? harvey rule wrote: > > All he or she had to do was cut the throttle to nothing and that plane > would have come to a stop in the water and no damage would have > occured.As I see it ;it was totalled by the time it came to a stop on > the beach and they were lucky they didn't kill someone including > themselves.Then again maybe the pilot was wishing he were dead after > doing this! > > Ben Williams wrote: >> >> http://www.break.com/movies/planebeach.html >> >> Ben >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Here's the rib comparison
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Hi BG Is the file attached to the piet site or one of the others? Looking forward to comparing the two. Did you put the spars in? Best regards Steve G -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brown Gravy Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here's the rib comparison Here's an AutoCAD drawing containing an overlay of the ordinates found on http://www.airminded.net/piet/piet.html and the dimensons given in the F&G manual. Unless I totally screwed up entering the dimensions from the F&G manual they are either less than perfect or it's a brilliant airfoil of some sort. You all take a look. The cayn line with the yellow circles is the F&G airfoil and the Red spline was generated from the ordinates found at the above site. AutoCAD drawing viewers are easy to find as freeware. I tested the drawing file with the free viewer found at http://www.infograph.com/products/dwgviewer/ (remember you take responsability for you own downloads). Anyway, the drawing file is attached. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29689#29689 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here's the rib comparison
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
I really don't know where the file ended up. I simply attached the file when I wrote the message. I didn't attach the spars. It's only a comparison of the curve. I didn't include the spars or other membersbecause I haven't received my plans yet and I don't want anyone using my drawing to locate critical members. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29699#29699 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here's the rib comparison
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Perhaps it wasn't allowed and was deleted? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29701#29701 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here's the rib comparison
Date: Apr 20, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Mr. Gravy, (or should we call you "Brown") Maybe you only THOUGHT you attached the file - I've done that many a time. Try submitting it again - see what happens. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brown Gravy Sent: April 20, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here's the rib comparison --> Perhaps it wasn't allowed and was deleted? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here's the rib comparison
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Please address me as "Mr. Gravy" Anyway, I've checked the allowed attachments and .dwg and .dxf are not allowed. Attached is a pdf. The centers of the circles are the points as called out in the F&G Manual. The smooth curve is the derived from the ordinates. Manny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29719#29719 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/airfoil_model_1_127.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
From: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3(at)netscape.net>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
OK, so by the over whelming response I will be building my own wing rib jig. The thought, by buying one already made was not because I couldn't do it, I was just trying to save some time. I now see the logic in building and keeping my own jig. Next Question? Is there any difference or benefit by either soaking or steaming your capstrips, does one work any better than the other. Thanks Again for the help and support. Bryan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29734#29734 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
There is a third option: ammonia fuming w/ anhydrous (spelling) ammonia. It's an advanced method of bending wood. I'm not certain how it effects the overall strength of the wood. The process basically destroys the integrity of the wood giving it the consistancy of a wet noodle. Once all the ammonia is gone in I believe 25 minutes or so the wood rehardens into its original state but with whatever bends it has been given remaining. You'd be able to tie those cap strips into tight knots if you wanted too. I don't know if this method has even been applied to aircraft construction. Much testing would have to take place to assure safety obviously before it could be applied. Imagine a continuous cap strip on wing ribs with no leading edges to make. Or, plywood made to bend into complex compound curves like the composite ships. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29743#29743 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 20, 2006
Bryan, I'm building ribs right now. I made the rib jig and posted some pictures of it on my site as well as my bending jig and other wing building accessories. I also crushed a sample gusset joint this evening as a confidence builder. I tested a method for quickly leveling the edge of the gusset with a router and a laminate flush trim bit so the top and bottom capstrips surfaces are smooth. Works very well and saves time. I just posted some pictures of this on my site too. The funny thing is that none of these ideas were mine, all came folks on the list. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29797#29797 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
I soaked mine. Made a form out of a piece of pine 2 x 4 with the shape of the first 12" or so of the top capstrip cut in it with a bandsaw. I would soak the first couple of feet of capstrip material in hot water while I was building a rib, (actually soaked 3 capstrips at a time). Then after I was finished glueing for the night, I would take the now pliable capstrips out of the hot water and clamp them onto my form and let them dry overnight. Next evening, they were ready and while I was making a rib I would soak more capstrips and keep the process going. You'll figure out a system that works for you. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of plncrzy Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:22 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Rib Jig OK, so by the over whelming response I will be building my own wing rib jig. The thought, by buying one already made was not because I couldn't do it, I was just trying to save some time. I now see the logic in building and keeping my own jig. Next Question? Is there any difference or benefit by either soaking or steaming your capstrips, does one work any better than the other. Thanks Again for the help and support. Bryan Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: KMHeide <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
Glenn, I must make mention of the excellent site you have created for building your pietenpol. I have viewed several and all are excellent work.... However, your site and its' format is very well done and for others who have not been to his site......... I encourage it! Ken Fargo Glenn Thomas wrote: Bryan, I'm building ribs right now. I made the rib jig and posted some pictures of it on my site as well as my bending jig and other wing building accessories. I also crushed a sample gusset joint this evening as a confidence builder. I tested a method for quickly leveling the edge of the gusset with a router and a laminate flush trim bit so the top and bottom capstrips surfaces are smooth. Works very well and saves time. I just posted some pictures of this on my site too. The funny thing is that none of these ideas were mine, all came folks on the list. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29797#29797 --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RIBS
From: "Brown Gravy" <mjs.browngravy(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Has anyone had a chance to compare the smoothed rib from the pdf file with their own rib? Is it accurate? I want to make a rib jig this weekend and don't want to waste my time using a screwy profile. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29880#29880 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Electric Kettle & steam
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Hi Coming from Canada I am very familiar with an appliance that is not seen too much in this country. It is great for instant soup and tea and is much faster than a stove top device. It is also great for quick steaming. A rubber hose loosely fitted to the top, other end going to a piece of conduit hanging from some hooks stuffed with a rag in the end. After plugging it in stock like capstrips is very pliable after about 15 minutes. Walmart is starting to carry these items for less than $20. If you want to steam seems a good way to go. Steve G ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Schuerrs" <schuerrs(at)charter.net>
Subject: hangars
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Does everyone hangar their planes or does anyone have to transport it every time they fly? I thought of an enclosed trailer. How long does it take to put the wings on? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: hangars
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Too Long. Installing takes 3 people 30 minutes. Rigging them takes quite a bit longer. Attaching aileron cables is not a trvial experience either. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of The Schuerrs Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: hangars Does everyone hangar their planes or does anyone have to transport it every time they fly? I thought of an enclosed trailer. How long does it take to put the wings on? Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RIBS
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
"Mr. Gravy", Something is definitely screwy with the profile shown in your PDF file. Having looked at it for a while, and looking at my copy of the 1932 FGM plans, I have come up with a possible explanation for the discrepancies. First, there is a fairly well known error in the FGM drawing - in the X-direction, the sixteenth vertical dimension (5 7/16") is incorrect. It should be 5 11/16" I think... (I don't have my "improved" plans in front of me, but I do have a slightly blurry photo of my plans that looks like it says 5 11/16" (see attached clipped photo) - correct me if I'm wrong, anyone). This would account for the big "dip" in your plotted airfoil. Secondly, I think that you have likely read the dimensions following regular drafting procedures - i.e. you have taken the measurements for the top curve of the airfoil to be dimensions relative to the chord line. The dimension arrowheads at the top of the rib SHOULD actually be pointing "up" to the underside of the top curve, rather than pointing "down" to the upperside of the top curve. The upper set of dimensions are to be measured relative to the bottom of the rib - NOT the chord line. (One exception is the "second" dimension from the left - the 2" dimension IS from the chord to the top curve. There is no dimension given for the underside of the airfoil at that point, but it has been agreed by most to be very close to 1/2".) This method of measurement would account for your plotted airfoil being "shorter" in height than the smooth airfoil. There are a few little "tweakings" that were done between the FGM plans and the "improved" plans, but nothing major - EXCEPT the orientation of the strut that goes behind the rear spar. As Clif Dawson pointed out the other day, that strut should run down from the top of the rear spar - not up from the bottom as drawn in the FGM plans. This is an important distinction. I wouldn't worry too much about minor little variations - just carefully plot the co-ordinates out on a nice flat piece of board, put a few nails in the board along the curve, and use a strip of wood (about the size of a capstrip) as your guide to mark the airfoil curve on the board. Then, using what will, by it's nature, be a smooth curve (because the wood will not generate anything but a smooth curve), place your blocks or more nails or whatever method you are going to use to maintain your curve. The most important thing will be that you produce a batch of ribs that are all the same. It really won't matter if your ribs are a sixteenth of an inch bigger or smaller - as long as they are all the same. Having said all that, here's a link to some photos of my rib jig http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=3D103 8&PlaneID=3D510&FName=3DBill&LName=3DChurch&PlaneName=3DAir%20Camper Hope you can understand my explanation. And have fun building your jig this weekend. Bill C. P.S. If you really like a lot of challenges, just build from the FGM plans. But, if you find "challenges" to be annoying, buy a full set of plans from the Pietenpol family. For one thing, they are much bigger (24" x 36") and easier to read. (Not that everything is clear as day on the improved plans either, but there's definitely more information there.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brown Gravy Sent: April 21, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RIBS --> Has anyone had a chance to compare the smoothed rib from the pdf file with their own rib? Is it accurate? I want to make a rib jig this weekend and don't want to waste my time using a screwy profile. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D29880#29880 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: tail wheel
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "Arden Adamson" <aadamson(at)wnmdag.org>
Gentlemen, I'm at the stage of building my tail wheel and attaching it to the fuselage but have some questions. I have purchased the complete homebuilders 4" tail wheel assembly from Aircraft Spruce. It is made for a leaf spring. 1. Which tail wheel method would be lighter? The kind using a spring with the tail wheel? Or tail wheel assembly using the Pietenpol's coil spring and arm? 2. If I use the leaf spring (ala Mike Cuy's) what kind of spring is it? What should I look for to get the right curve? My tail wheel bracket uses a 1 =BD inch width spring. 3. If I use the Pietenpol's swing arm and coil, the attach fittings for the arms are right where the three cross braces join the longerons. Do the bolts for attaching the arm fittings to the longerons actually go through the braces as well? Seems to be a odd place to put bolts (and they would be very long) and it would seem to conflict with the horizontal cross brace. Any help would be appreciated. Am enjoying the process even though slow. Arden Adamson Waupaca, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: tail wheel
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Hi Arden, I've had both types of tailwheel spring on my Pietenpol. I started with a leaf spring design like Mike Cuy has, using a modified Piper Super-Cruiser tailwheel spring and the same tailwheel you are using. It worked fine, up until a forced landing ripped it off the fuselage. I had 1-1/2 leafs of the PA-12 spring and it was just about right. I had to modify the bend a bit to get the right angle on my kingpost. I used the techniques Tony Bingelis lays out in his book using a vise and a long 2 x 4 to bend the spring. Broke a good vise doing that, by the way. During the repairs after the forced landing, I decided to go with the BHP coil spring design. As BHP designed it, it is about 1-1/2 lbs lighter than the PA-12 setup I had before. It was also totally inadequate for tailwheel steering. This design was fine for a tailskid, where no steering loads were imparted. The problem with it for a swiveling tailwheel is that when the tailwheel is in any position other than trail, it puts a substantial moment on the whole assembly, tending to twist it off the tail of the airplane. I built a new, heavier version which was beefed up to resist the torsion and it works fine, but it weighs the same as the Super Cruiser setup I had originally. If I had a choice, I would use the leaf spring design. Simpler and no heavier, and probably produces less drag. There's got to be a reason that virtually all production taildraggers used this design. If you use the leaf spring, I would buy a used one from a salvage yard, or ebay, and modify it as required to fit your plane. Or modify an automobile leaf spring. Should work just fine. If you use the coil spring design, mount your brackets where practical. Mine attach aft of the last uprights on the lower longerons. Jack Phillips NX899JP Hoping the wx will be good enough to fly it to a fly-in at Franklin County, NC tomorrow -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Arden Adamson Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 2:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail wheel Gentlemen, I'm at the stage of building my tail wheel and attaching it to the fuselage but have some questions. I have purchased the complete homebuilders 4" tail wheel assembly from Aircraft Spruce. It is made for a leaf spring. 1 Which tail wheel method would be lighter? The kind using a spring with the tail wheel? Or tail wheel assembly using the Pietenpol's coil spring and arm? 2 If I use the leaf spring (ala Mike Cuy's) what kind of spring is it? What should I look for to get the right curve? My tail wheel bracket uses a 1 =BD inch width spring. 3 If I use the Pietenpol's swing arm and coil, the attach fittings for the arms are right where the three cross braces join the longerons. Do the bolts for attaching the arm fittings to the longerons actually go through the braces as well? Seems to be a odd place to put bolts (and they would be very long) and it would seem to conflict with the horizontal cross brace. Any help would be appreciated. Am enjoying the process even though slow. Arden Adamson Waupaca, WI Working together. For life.(sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Thanks, The site is my answer to mykitplane.com before I knew it existed. Got most of my ideas for the jig from pictures Bill Church posted there. This project is all about learning and sharing. My fear is that somebody may see my site and consider me some kind of expert which needs to be made clear that I am not. I'm just out there experimenting and learning as I go and having a blast. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29906#29906 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: tailwheel spring attach ideas
Hello Arden-- good to see you surface on the list and glad you are plugging away. I remember having the pleasure of meeting you at the house several years back when I was building. Glad you are still at it. I have attached two sketches and a photo that help explain how I attached two leaf springs to my fuselage. The sketches only show one leaf but I needed two for it to work properly. You can order leaf sets from Wicks and Wag Aero---but Wag Aero is $$ sometimes. Univair might have them if they are still in business. I had to cold bend one of my springs (see Bingelis books) and drill two new holes-----use a masonry bit ala Bingelis's suggestion and it works well ! The Homebuilder's TW is a good one but you have to be careful if you can break it into a full swivel mode by hand or too easily---this can wreck your entire airplane on landing or takeoff. I've had to take the TW apart and grind out the alum. cam area with a dremel twice now so that it doesn't go "surprise" into full swivel mode. I have settled for a long time just having that thing be totally controllable/steerable and am very happy to never see it swivel again. Your mileage may vary. All the best--- Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tail wheel
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Arden, Can't answer all your questions but here is what I used (AS&S Partnumbers) 06-01615 , MATCO SOLID RUBBER , ( 5 Lbs) 06-14500 , TAILWHEEL LEAF SPRING # 4 , (1 3/4 Lbs) Works for me. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: hangars
I invested in a "Cover-it Hanger" 30x20 and the piet fits just fine. (My second hanger for my second project with no down side) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: The Schuerrs To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: hangars Does everyone hangar their planes or does anyone have to transport it every time they fly? I thought of an enclosed trailer. How long does it take to put the wings on? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RIBS
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Bill Church's examples are very good. On my jig it worked well to drill a 3/4" hole at each intersection of the cap strip and braces. This way you don't have to worry about the glue joints sticking to your jig. You can see some pictures on my site www.textors.com Jack Textor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "The Schuerrs" <schuerrs(at)charter.net>
Subject: nails or staples
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Purists, forgive me. What do you all think of tacking the gussets in place with an Impulse trim gun? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Ribs and Rib Jigs
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Don't you just love to see the questions pop up about the dimensions of the ribs and the rib jig. This can only mean one thing and that is that another new Pietenpol is being started. I can remember those were the first "panic" questions that arose when we started our Piets three years ago and now I look back fondly and laugh. Never to worry, a lot more head scratching is in store for those just starting out, but the answers become easier to get as you gain experience in the building process. The main thing is to do something on the Piet every day. This includes reading plans, ordering parts, scrounging, talking and asking questions. Good Luck Barry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: tire shaving and ELT
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Hi guys, I'm confused about whether I need an ELT or not. Seems like some have it and some don't. I'd appreciate knowing who has one and who doesn't and what your inspector said. Also, does anyone know where I can have some tires shaved of their tread? I guess I need a place with a tire lathe. I remember this came up a few months ago, but of course I didn't keep the names thanks, Douwe Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: tire shaving and ELT
Douwe-- my inspector never even asked about wether or not I had an ELT (for the flight test period you don't need an ELT) and I did not have one-- nor do I to this day. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 21, 2006
From: KMHeide <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Slim gas containers for Piets
Members of the list: Some short time ago there was discussion about using plastic fuel tanks.....Here is a site that sells very narrow gas tanks complete with brass insert for a gas line. I found these at my local Polaris dealer called Pioneer Outdoor Products. They have been bought out by Kolpin Outdoor. Scroll downt ot he atv and you can find more about different lengths, widths, and volumn.... Kolpin ATV Accessories Ken Fargo, ND --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: ELT requirements
Date: Apr 21, 2006
I am going to blackmail Mike Cuy since I now know that he is operating his Piet in violation of the FARs. I believe an ELT is required. There are exemptions made when it is required to ferry an aircraft from a place where repairs cannot be made to a place where they can, and other ferry operations. More useful, however, are these (numbers correspond to the exceptions noted in the applicable FAR): (3) aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began ["flying off your hours" or just training] (4) aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing [which I guess you could say most experimentals are doing every time they fly], and (9)aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person. [as in, Sky Scout]. All others- ELT or beware a ramp check. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ribs and Rib Jigs
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2006
Hey, I resemble that! ...wasn't 3 years ago though. I think it was last month. It's a good feeling when you start to feel like you can do this with confidence. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29952#29952 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: "jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Component Weights in Doug Fir
Hello Steve and Pietenpol Group, You asked what my Piet weighed, but its not complete so my wife helped me weigh the wood parts today. It would be interesting to see how the weights compare with people who have built out of spruce instead of Doug Fir that I used. Fuselage (with control sticks/torque rod/aileron horn assy. but less the 1/8 inch side ply sheeting) 59.5 lbs. Horizontal Stabilizer 4 lbs Both Elevators 3.5 lbs Vertical Fin and Rudder 2 lbs 32 Wing Ribs 24 lbs The tail surfaces have not had their leading/trailing edges rounded yet and the fuselage has the 1/4 inch ply bottom but not the side 1/8 inch ply sheeting (probably offset by the control stick assembly). I also did not include the weights of any of the steel parts except the stick assembly (too much work to remove it today). All the wood parts are as they were when taken out of their jigs. Oh, I forgot, I am using a Corvair engine. Have all the parts now and have the crank out ready to get nitrided and then will be ready to final assembly the engine. Any questions, comments? Jim Boyer(at)hughes.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Catdesign" <catdesign(at)intergate.com>
Subject: Re: nails or staples
Date: Apr 21, 2006
I believe the staples will be to large a diameter and possibly split the wood. Try it for your self. I think the advice is to use an office type stapler. I didn't use any staples or nails. I'm using T-88 epoxy and I clamped on the gussets after I removed the rib from the jig. The nails and stapes provide clamping pressure and once the glue is dried they a dead weight unless removed. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: The Schuerrs To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: nails or staples Purists, forgive me. What do you all think of tacking the gussets in place with an Impulse trim gun? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: nails or staples
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 21, 2006
I opted to clamp and not use nails or staples. I felt that since the nails/staples are only effective while the T-88 cures, no point in adding stress to the joint and possibly fracturing the wood. I'm sure it's safe because most people do use nails and staples, just wanted to experiment with a clamp. Have a rib setting in the jig right now. Gussets stay put as long as the clamp is perpendicular to the gusset. 2 fellow builders in my area say it wastes time because if you staple you can pull the rib out of the jig and make another rib while the first one cures. I don't know if the rib could relax into slightly different shape so I can live with the rib-a-day plan. Whats another month over the 5 years I'll be building? -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29995#29995 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: tire shaving and ELT
In the mid 30's, when the Boeing 247 was a new state of the art aircraft, one left Seattle for Vancouver. It never arrived. The mystery was finally solved some 10 years ago when it was finally discovered by hikers only a few miles north of where I'm sitting, here in the middle of a large and thriving metropolis of two million souls. Except for ultralights, balloons, hang gliders and auto- gyros, all AC must carry an approved ELT and "appropriate" survival gear. They don't call them the "Rocky's" for nothing. Around here it's not just aeroplanes that go uppity-up-up and downity-down-down. Now, if someone would just trap that damn skunk that makes my nights miserable, the racoons that party all night in my backyard and the coyotes that ate my neighbours dog......AH, well, I guess there are some sacrifices to be made for living in a huge park. :-) :-) I should really think about putting this Piet on floats, or at least huge balloon tires. I think 12.50X20's aught to do it. Clif > > Douwe-- my inspector never even asked about wether or not I had an > ELT (for the flight test period you don't need an ELT) > > and I did not have one-- nor do I to this day. > > Mike C. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: nails or staples
Why would it be another month? After you have that rib in the jig you're spending that curing time making brackets, building landing gear, constructing control horns.....right? Clif > 2 fellow builders in my area say it wastes time because if you staple you > can pull the rib out of the jig and make another rib while the first one > cures. I don't know if the rib could relax into slightly different shape > so I can live with the rib-a-day plan. Whats another month over the 5 > years I'll be building? > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: nails or staples
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Very true. I have 2 Corvairs that need to come apart. Need to put in an order for more wood. Corky recommended a lumber source to me and I'd like to try them (reputable lumberyard in WA) rather than an aircraft supply store. Seems like if they can put an "aircraft" label on it the price triples. Need to order soon. I'd like to get the tail feathers started. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30009#30009 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Subject: Nails or staples
I used staples to stick on the gussets. Arrow JT21 stapler. ( Arrow T50 stapler for 1/8" gussets )I bought the staples from Sears. It looks like they are sharper and rounder than Arrow staples. They didn't split the wood. I was able to immediately pull the rib out of the jig, flip it over and gusset the other side. I once knocked out 3 ribs in one cold rainy day. Latter, at your leasure, while watching tv or something you can pull the staples. A sharply pointed stake knife worked good for that. Cover your lap with a Sunday newspaper especially the family jewelry incase the knife slips. Leon S. Ks. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tire shaving and ELT
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Sorry, What is ELT? End of Life Tire??? That's my best guess. I'm new to this so it could very well be a standard term. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30011#30011 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EmchAir(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Subject: new guy again
Hello, > My name is Don Emch. I posted some messages on here quite a while ago and > kind of faded away from it since then. I thought I would try to get in touch > with you all again. > > I tried to attach a photo of my Piet. Maybe I'll try on the Matronics > pictures site too. I got it flying last September and am really happy with it so > far. It's a real kick to fly! It has an A-65, but other than that is > basically a plans built ship. Weighs in at 626 lbs. and cruises at about 80 mph. > > A lot of people really helped me out on this thing, so if I could possibly > help someone else, let me know. Currently I am based at Barber Airport in > Alliance, Ohio. Kinda cool, I'm honored to hangar with Frank Pavliga's Sky > Gypsy (a piet that has become a legend in itself). Anyway both Piets should be > at the June 3-4 Corvair Fly-in at Barber's, just in case any others want to > attend. > > Don Emch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EmchAir(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Subject: question marks
Sorry about the question marks. Don't know what's up there! Don ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tire shaving and ELT
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
ELT ;emergency location transmitter for when your ass is where it shouldn't be. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Thomas Sent: April 22, 2006 7:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tire shaving and ELT Sorry, What is ELT? End of Life Tire??? That's my best guess. I'm new to this so it could very well be a standard term. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30011#30011 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ELT requirements
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
If you register as I did as an ultralight then you don't need one of these.I suppose they don't care if they ever find you HAHAHA! Don't archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: April 21, 2006 6:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ELT requirements I am going to blackmail Mike Cuy since I now know that he is operating his Piet in violation of the FARs. I believe an ELT is required. There are exemptions made when it is required to ferry an aircraft from a place where repairs cannot be made to a place where they can, and other ferry operations. More useful, however, are these (numbers correspond to the exceptions noted in the applicable FAR): (3) aircraft while engaged in training operations conducted entirely within a 50-nautical mile radius of the airport from which such local flight operations began ["flying off your hours" or just training] (4) aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing [which I guess you could say most experimentals are doing every time they fly], and (9)aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person. [as in, Sky Scout]. All others- ELT or beware a ramp check. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: I flew Thurs.
I flew for the first time in '06 on Thursday. Man , It was great! I had put new exhaust pipes on with new muffs for carb heat, and they gave me a good (better) drop than the old. From Wag Aero, pipes for an Aeronca 7AC. Ain't Life Grand!! walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 22, 2006
From: dmott9(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: tire shaving and ELT
Yeah, ELT - that thing that goes off when you don't want it to, in the hanger, then when you crash land in the trees or in a rough field, won't activate when you want it to. Its puts out a weak Beacon signal that is supposed to be on a frequency thats monitored from space and able to be pinpointed, yet can be activated for 3 days and no one is looking for you. There are portable ones that you can mount with velcro, so whose to say Mike doesn't have one he attaches with velcro to the bottom of his seat :) -----Original Message----- From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: tire shaving and ELT ELT ;emergency location transmitter for when your ass is where it shouldn't be. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Thomas Sent: April 22, 2006 7:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tire shaving and ELT Sorry, What is ELT? End of Life Tire??? That's my best guess. I'm new to this so it could very well be a standard term. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30011#30011 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: I flew Thurs.
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Walt I had an EAA chapter meeting at my hangar last Wed night. One of the guys there gave me a warning about the Aeronica pipes, which I also use, along with several others on the list. This guy said he once had a pipe break which came down and destroyed the prop and caused an emergency landing. Apparantly, there is an additional support bracket which is supposed to tie the pipes together for safety. I've never seen this, maybe someone else on the list has more info. I probably won't be back in the air for a couple of more weeks. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet list Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: I flew Thurs. I flew for the first time in '06 on Thursday. Man , It was great! I had put new exhaust pipes on with new muffs for carb heat, and they gave me a good (better) drop than the old. From Wag Aero, pipes for an Aeronca 7AC. Ain't Life Grand!! walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 22, 2006
Subject: ELT Frequency
In a message dated 4/21/2006 3:33:48 PM Central Standard Time, douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net writes: I'm confused about whether I need an ELT or not. I think the Feds are changing the frequency of ELT's (currently 121.5 mhz), by something like the year 2008, in order to include much more information about the source of the signal, as well as being easier to locate. This means you will have to buy a new one, if yours doesn't comply. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2006
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: ELT Frequency
2009. New frequency 406 MHz. Too many false positives from ATMs, sport stadium screenboards, even pizza ovens with present system.. False alarm rate is 99%. Present system transmits 0.1 watts, New is 5 watts. Present only pinpoints to a 12 NM radius, the new one much closer at 2 NM radius. Above info from my Sport Aviation that arrived Friday. Much more in the article but this will give you an idea. Another potential life saver is the transponder. If you're on someone's radar screen and you mayday or hit the emergency button they can follow you to the very last received transmission thus reducing the search radius and getting to you faster. Here's a thought for you flatlanders. Suppose you fell into someone's woodlot when no one was looking. The branches bend as you pass on your way to the ground then swish back up again. Nobody is going to even think of you being there. Just another 1/2 acre patch of trees. Yes, this is a true story. They found him too late. Clif I'm confused about whether I need an ELT or not. I think the Feds are changing the frequency of ELT's (currently 121.5 mhz), by something like the year 2008, in order to include much more information about the source of the signal, as well as being easier to locate. This means you will have to buy a new one, if yours doesn't comply. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 23, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: ELT Frequency
There was a story like that near me last year in northern NJ. Didn't find him for about 6 days. Too late. Later stopped into local nearby airport. The FPO is into the fire and rescue. He made a face and told how the bears found him before they did. walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:26 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ELT Frequency 2009. New frequency 406 MHz. Too many false positives from ATMs, sport stadium screenboards, even pizza ovens with present system.. False alarm rate is 99%. Present system transmits 0.1 watts, New is 5 watts. Present only pinpoints to a 12 NM radius, the new one much closer at 2 NM radius. Above info from my Sport Aviation that arrived Friday. Much more in the article but this will give you an idea. Another potential life saver is the transponder. If you're on someone's radar screen and you mayday or hit the emergency button they can follow you to the very last received transmission thus reducing the search radius and getting to you faster. Here's a thought for you flatlanders. Suppose you fell into someone's woodlot when no one was looking. The branches bend as you pass on your way to the ground then swish back up again. Nobody is going to even think of you being there. Just another 1/2 acre patch of trees. Yes, this is a true story. They found him too late. Clif I'm confused about whether I need an ELT or not. I think the Feds are changing the frequency of ELT's (currently 121.5 mhz), by something like the year 2008, in order to include much more information about the source of the signal, as well as being easier to locate. This means you will have to buy a new one, if yours doesn't comply. Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: new guy again
Date: Apr 23, 2006
Nice to see you back on the list again, Don. How about giving us a first flight report? Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: EmchAir(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 8:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: new guy again Hello, > My name is Don Emch. I posted some messages on here quite a while ago and > kind of faded away from it since then. I thought I would try to get in touch > with you all again. > > I tried to attach a photo of my Piet. Maybe I'll try on the Matronics > pictures site too. I got it flying last September and am really happy with it so > far. It's a real kick to fly! It has an A-65, but other than that is > basically a plans built ship. Weighs in at 626 lbs. and cruises at about 80 mph. > > A lot of people really helped me out on this thing, so if I could possibly > help someone else, let me know. Currently I am based at Barber Airport in > Alliance, Ohio. Kinda cool, I'm honored to hangar with Frank Pavliga's Sky > Gypsy (a piet that has become a legend in itself). Anyway both Piets should be > at the June 3-4 Corvair Fly-in at Barber's, just in case any others want to > attend. > > Don Emch ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: nails or staples
Date: Apr 23, 2006
I used an ordinary office stapler like for stapling a couple papers together. I was amazed to find out that the staples easily penetrate 1/16 ply AND 1/8" birch 5 ply plywood. You don't even have to bang it. Just place and push. Works beautifully and doesn't split any wood. No need for any of the t-50 type staplers and much more convenient then a million tiny brass nails held with needle nose pliers Romey Bukolt NX88XN ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 23, 2006
Subject: I don't believe it...the civil war on the Piet list
I don't believe it...my other hobby -- the American civil war -- has now been brought into the Pietenpol list! For anyone interested, Company B, 2nd Wisconsin Civil War Reenactors will hold our "Spring Muster and School of the Soldier" in La Crosse next Saturday...open to the public to observe us drill with manual of arms, marching, loading and firing (blanks, of course), etc. etc. We'll even have a recruiter and surgeon on hand...anyone care to join? $13 a month...if the pay wagon catches up....in fact, next Saturday marks the 145th anniversary of the La Crosse boy's departure for the war...great Web site at: _www.secondwi.com_ (http://www.secondwi.com) I suppose now I'll hear from all the Rebs! : ) Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: update on William Wynne's website...
Date: Apr 23, 2006
...is athttp://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html . With information about the upcoming Corvair College in Canada, as well as interesting photos on a quick-build Zenith underway. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new guy again
From: "DGflyer" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 23, 2006
Hi guys... Sure Greg I can give a first flight report. I first flew it back in September. I hadn't flown in a couple of years and had no tailwheel time. I thought flying in a mixture of planes would help to learn new flying qualities. I got some time in a Champ, Cub, T-Craft, and Citabria. After those I started taxiing the Piet faster and faster until I was running down the runway with the tail in the air. One evening I was doing this with my wife and 3 kids at the airport with me. After one run I taxied over to my wife and told her I felt pretty good with it. She was very supportive and said 'I think you're ready too'. I sat at the end of the runway flying the flight in my head for the 1000th time! I firewalled it for the first time( all the taxis were partial throttle) and wasn't sure this would be it until it was trying to lift off the ground. It was a short flight, but all went well. It was a fascinating mixture of exhilaration, adrenaline, excitement, and outright fear! It is a very forgiving and gentle flying airplane though. The flight went so well because of the design not the pilot! Since then I've gotten to know it better. I absolutely love flying it! It is very easy to land as long as you are straight at touchdown. If you aren't that tall narrow gear will let you know! I really liked how the Cub flew, and of the four it is the most similar. But I like how the Piet flies MUCH more! Lots of fun! Some specs are; A-65 with 72 x 44 Hegy prop ( I'd like to find a 72 x 42 Falcon) Split axle gear with 19" homemade hub wire wheels with go-cart brakes 4" homemade tailwheel on tail skid A- frame 14.5 gallon nose tank Long fuselage Sky Gypsy type cowl Takeoff run lasts about 7 seconds Cruise about 80mph (full throttle shows about 88mph, but the aiframe acts like it doesn't like it there!) I pirated a lot of ideas from other Piets at Brodhead and if there is anyway I could help someone and return the favor please let me know! I put a picture on the Frappr site; http://www.frappr.com/?a=photo&gid=27292&pid=1831955&src=flash_slideticker Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30276#30276 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Subject: Flying NX899DE
In a message dated 4/23/2006 10:38:35 PM Central Standard Time, EmchAir(at)aol.com writes: Hi guys... Sure Greg I can give a first flight report. I first flew it back in September. I hadn't flown in a couple of years and had no tailwheel time. I thought flying in a mixture of planes would help to learn new flying qualities. I got some time in a Champ, Cub, T-Craft, and Citabria. After those I started taxiing the Piet faster and faster until I was running down the runway with the tail in the air. One evening I was doing this with my wife and 3 kids at the airport with me. After one run I taxied over to my wife and told her I felt pretty good with it. She was very supportive and said 'I think you're ready too'. I sat at the end of the runway flying the flight in my head for the 1000th time! I firewalled it for the first time( all the taxis were partial throttle) and wasn't sure this would be it until it was trying to lift off the ground. It was a short flight, but all went well. It was a fascinating mixture of exhilaration, adrenaline, excitement, and outright fear! It is a very forgiving and gentle flying airplane though. The flight went so well because of the design not the pilot! Since then I've gotten to know it better. I absolutely love flying it! It is very easy to land as long as you are straight at touchdown. If you aren't that tall narrow gear will let you know! I really liked how the Cub flew, and of the four it is the most similar. But I like how the Piet flies MUCH more! Lots of fun! Some specs are; A-65 with 72 x 44 Hegy prop ( I'd like to find a 72 x 42 Falcon) Split axle gear with 19" homemade hub wire wheels with go-cart brakes 4" homemade tailwheel on tail skid A- frame 14.5 gallon nose tank Long fuselage Sky Gypsy type cowl Takeoff run lasts about 7 seconds Cruise about 80mph (full throttle shows about 88mph, but the aiframe acts like it doesn't like it there!) I pirated a lot of ideas from other Piets at Brodhead and if there is anyway I could help someone and return the favor please let me know! I put a picture on the Frappr site; http://www.frappr.com/?a=photo&gid=27292&pid=1831955&src=flash_slideticker Don Emch NX899DE Don, Great report !! Posts like this really offers a LOT of encouragement for all those folks out there in the building stage and it's a great way to exchange thoughts about the flying characteristics, too. What is your tach read at full power, level flight ? My plane also lets me know that she doesn't like those high speed, full power runs !! It's like she tightens up, and buzzes at me !! Does your mechanical tach have any error...checked possibly with an electronic tach ? Does your airspeed have any error...have you checked with a GPS yet ? I suppose there are lots of ways to calibrate ASI...like pace yourself with traffic, or if you have good section lines to go by in your local terrain, do a timed one mile straight, level flight, on each of the cardinal compass directions, then average the time speeds and see how it compares with indicated speed. Also, I'm curious as to what your oil temp indicates, and what the ambient temp was ? Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: "walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Flying NX899DE
Don, GREAT! looking plane!!! Nice job. Needs some kind of emblem on the side : ) Good luck with it. walt evans NX140DL "Put your wealth in knowledge, and no one can ever take it from you" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:17 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flying NX899DE In a message dated 4/23/2006 10:38:35 PM Central Standard Time, EmchAir(at)aol.com writes: Hi guys... Sure Greg I can give a first flight report. I first flew it back in September. I hadn't flown in a couple of years and had no tailwheel time. I thought flying in a mixture of planes would help to learn new flying qualities. I got some time in a Champ, Cub, T-Craft, and Citabria. After those I started taxiing the Piet faster and faster until I was running down the runway with the tail in the air. One evening I was doing this with my wife and 3 kids at the airport with me. After one run I taxied over to my wife and told her I felt pretty good with it. She was very supportive and said 'I think you're ready too'. I sat at the end of the runway flying the flight in my head for the 1000th time! I firewalled it for the first time( all the taxis were partial throttle) and wasn't sure this would be it until it was trying to lift off the ground. It was a short flight, but all went well. It was a fascinating mixture of exhilaration, adrenaline, excitement, and outright fear! It is a very forgiving and gentle flying airplane though. The flight went so well because of the design not the pilot! Since then I've gotten to know it better. I absolutely love flying it! It is very easy to land as long as you are straight at touchdown. If you aren't that tall narrow gear will let you know! I really liked how the Cub flew, and of the four it is the most similar. But I like how the Piet flies MUCH more! Lots of fun! Some specs are; A-65 with 72 x 44 Hegy prop ( I'd like to find a 72 x 42 Falcon) Split axle gear with 19" homemade hub wire wheels with go-cart brakes 4" homemade tailwheel on tail skid A- frame 14.5 gallon nose tank Long fuselage Sky Gypsy type cowl Takeoff run lasts about 7 seconds Cruise about 80mph (full throttle shows about 88mph, but the aiframe acts like it doesn't like it there!) I pirated a lot of ideas from other Piets at Brodhead and if there is anyway I could help someone and return the favor please let me know! I put a picture on the Frappr site; http://www.frappr.com/?a=3Dphoto&gid=3D27292&pid=3D1831955&src=3Dflash_slideticker Don Emch NX899DE Don, Great report !! Posts like this really offers a LOT of encouragement for all those folks out there in the building stage and it's a great way to exchange thoughts about the flying characteristics, too. What is your tach read at full power, level flight ? My plane also lets me know that she doesn't like those high speed, full power runs !! It's like she tightens up, and buzzes at me !! Does your mechanical tach have any error...checked possibly with an electronic tach ? Does your airspeed have any error...have you checked with a GPS yet ? I suppose there are lots of ways to calibrate ASI...like pace yourself with traffic, or if you have good section lines to go by in your local terrain, do a timed one mile straight, level flight, on each of the cardinal compass directions, then average the time speeds and see how it compares with indicated speed. Also, I'm curious as to what your oil temp indicates, and what the ambient temp was ? Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flying NX899DE
From: "DGflyer" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2006
I guess I should have said I'm 'indicating' about 80 mph. I haven't checked with gps yet. I had a T-Craft along side me and after the flight he said he was indicating around the same. That doesn't mean much though. When the airplane is indicating anywhere in the 70 to 80 mph range it just seems to feel right, it's like it 'likes it there'. The tach is a used one and I think I know why it was removed from the last airplane. It reads low, about 1950rpm at that 80 mph. The airport owner, Forrest Barber, says he has an electronic tach for me to check it with. Maybe next time out. This past week my oil temps seemed to be in the 150 to 160 degree range at probably 60 degree ambient. One thing I'm gonna try to change is the mags. I've got the pold lunch box Bendix mags. Beautiful when there running. But without the impulses the kick backs at startup are getting old! If anyone knows of a set of impulse mags, please let me know. Don Emch Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30299#30299 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: Tim <twilliams(at)mailmt.com>
Subject: Liability
Gentlemen, maybe someone can help with this question. I bought a certified flying Piet. from the builder. I had to do a 'top end' on it. I'm not an IA or an A&P. I'm thinking about selling the plane and I've been told that without a 'sign off'. I'm liable for any subsequent problems. I've been thinking about completely dismantling the plane and selling it as junk. Any thoughts on this . Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new guy again
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
Hey Don, Congratulations on the flight and the plane! I like your choice of colors. As Walt Evans is fond of saying, "Ain't life grand!" Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DGflyer Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 11:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: new guy again Hi guys... Sure Greg I can give a first flight report. I first flew it back in September. I hadn't flown in a couple of years and had no tailwheel time. I thought flying in a mixture of planes would help to learn new flying qualities. I got some time in a Champ, Cub, T-Craft, and Citabria. After those I started taxiing the Piet faster and faster until I was running down the runway with the tail in the air. One evening I was doing this with my wife and 3 kids at the airport with me. After one run I taxied over to my wife and told her I felt pretty good with it. She was very supportive and said 'I think you're ready too'. I sat at the end of the runway flying the flight in my head for the 1000th time! I firewalled it for the first time( all the taxis were partial throttle) and wasn't sure this would be it until it was trying to lift off the ground. It was a short flight, but all went well. It was a fascinating mixture of exhilaration, adrenaline, excitement, and outright fear! It is a very forgiving and gentle flying airplane though. The flight went so well because of the design not the pilot! Since then I've gotten to know it better. I absolutely love flying it! It is very easy to land as long as you are straight at touchdown. If you aren't that tall narrow gear will let you know! I really liked how the Cub flew, and of the four it is the most similar. But I like how the Piet flies MUCH more! Lots of fun! Some specs are; A-65 with 72 x 44 Hegy prop ( I'd like to find a 72 x 42 Falcon) Split axle gear with 19" homemade hub wire wheels with go-cart brakes 4" homemade tailwheel on tail skid A- frame 14.5 gallon nose tank Long fuselage Sky Gypsy type cowl Takeoff run lasts about 7 seconds Cruise about 80mph (full throttle shows about 88mph, but the aiframe acts like it doesn't like it there!) I pirated a lot of ideas from other Piets at Brodhead and if there is anyway I could help someone and return the favor please let me know! I put a picture on the Frappr site; http://www.frappr.com/?a=photo&gid=27292&pid=1831955&src=flash_slidetick er Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30276#30276 Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: flying NX899DE
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Folks, if you haven't taken a look at Don's airplane, at http://www.frappr.com/?a=photo&gid=27292&pid=1831955&src=flash_slideticker , go there now and take a look. Do not pass "GO", do not collect $200...!! What a beauty! And the photo pose is just classic Pietenpol. I have a new screen saver... Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: dmott9(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Liability
My thoughts would be to pull the engine, sell it separate from the airframe, and let the buyer of the airframe choose and install their own engine. Does it have a A-65 ? Maybe someone has a ready to go Corvair they are itching at getting in the air. DMflyer -----Original Message----- From: Tim <twilliams(at)mailmt.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Liability Gentlemen, maybe someone can help with this question. I bought a certified flying Piet. from the builder. I had to do a 'top end' on it. I'm not an IA or an A&P. I'm thinking about selling the plane and I've been told that without a 'sign off'. I'm liable for any subsequent problems. I've been thinking about completely dismantling the plane and selling it as junk. Any thoughts on this . Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new guy again
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Don, Beautiful kids....plane too! Jack Textor Hi guys... Sure Greg I can give a first flight report. I first flew it back in September. I hadn't flown in a couple of years and had no tailwheel time. I thought flying in a mixture of planes would help to learn new flying qualities. I got some time in a Champ, Cub, T-Craft, and Citabria. After those I started taxiing the Piet faster and faster until I was running down the runway with the tail in the air. One evening I was doing this with my wife and 3 kids at the airport with me. After one run I taxied over to my wife and told her I felt pretty good with it. She was very supportive and said 'I think you're ready too'. I sat at the end of the runway flying the flight in my head for the 1000th time! I firewalled it for the first time( all the taxis were partial throttle) and wasn't sure this would be it until it was trying to lift off the ground. It was a short flight, but all went well. It was a fascinating mixture of exhilaration, adrenaline, excitement, and outright fear! It is a very forgiving and gentle flying airplane though. The flight went so well because of the design not the pilot! Since then I've gotten to know it better. I absolutely love flying it! It is very easy to land as long as you are straight at touchdown. If you aren't that tall narrow gear will let you know! I really liked how the Cub flew, and of the four it is the most similar. But I like how the Piet flies MUCH more! Lots of fun! Some specs are; A-65 with 72 x 44 Hegy prop ( I'd like to find a 72 x 42 Falcon) Split axle gear with 19" homemade hub wire wheels with go-cart brakes 4" homemade tailwheel on tail skid A- frame 14.5 gallon nose tank Long fuselage Sky Gypsy type cowl Takeoff run lasts about 7 seconds Cruise about 80mph (full throttle shows about 88mph, but the aiframe acts like it doesn't like it there!) I pirated a lot of ideas from other Piets at Brodhead and if there is anyway I could help someone and return the favor please let me know! I put a picture on the Frappr site; http://www.frappr.com/?a=photo&gid=27292&pid=1831955&src=flash_slidetick er Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30276#30276 Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flying NX899DE
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Like Chuck said, Us new builders eat that stuff up! I still sit and think about what it will be like taxing down the runway and then taking off and my wheels in the air with nobody but me to get them back on the ground again. I will do everything I can to prep myself for that day but I still I can vividly imaging the exhileration and fear of that momentus occasion. You have achieved the period look of the plane and did a fantastic job. You first flight report was probably the best post I've read since I started this project. Really gets you going!!! Thanks -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30329#30329 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Don E's Airplane--from Ohio
Group-- I've had the pleasure of meeting Don over the years at various fly-in's and he has really stuck with the project thru many life events and construction growing pains along the way. I've seen the airplane in person as well and it is every bit as beautiful as the photo--and then some. Congratulations Don----a lifelong dream come true. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Don E's Airplane--from Ohio
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
>From the photo, it appears that another really fine Pietenpol has been built. I think this whole group owes a debt of gratitude to Mike Cuy and Chuck Gantzer for the video materials they have produced and the countless emails and other advising they have given that contribute to increasingly better Pietenpols being built. It is important that those of us who have followed them continue to pass along the knowledge we have learned to those who are now building. I know my plane would be much lower quality without all the help I got from Mike as I was building. Congrats again, Don, on a fine looking Pietenpol. I wish I could go to Brodhead this yer to see it in person. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Don E's Airplane--from Ohio Group-- I've had the pleasure of meeting Don over the years at various fly-in's and he has really stuck with the project thru many life events and construction growing pains along the way. I've seen the airplane in person as well and it is every bit as beautiful as the photo--and then some. Congratulations Don----a lifelong dream come true. Mike C. Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: R Matt Doody <rmattd123(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Liability
Tim, I'm an A&P where is your airplane located? Would you consider selling complete? Matt Tim wrote: Gentlemen, maybe someone can help with this question. I bought a certified flying Piet. from the builder. I had to do a 'top end' on it. I'm not an IA or an A&P. I'm thinking about selling the plane and I've been told that without a 'sign off'. I'm liable for any subsequent problems. I've been thinking about completely dismantling the plane and selling it as junk. Any thoughts on this . Thanks --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flying NX899DE
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Nice plane, Don. I noticed this must be the first three seat Pietenpol. Have fun with it and many safe flights. Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: Liability
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Well just have an A&P look it over and sign off on it. If you decide to part it up, send up this way to Alaska, I could use the extra parts.... You will have no liability with it then! Ha. Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Liability Gentlemen, maybe someone can help with this question. I bought a certified flying Piet. from the builder. I had to do a 'top end' on it. I'm not an IA or an A&P. I'm thinking about selling the plane and I've been told that without a 'sign off'. I'm liable for any subsequent problems. I've been thinking about completely dismantling the plane and selling it as junk. Any thoughts on this . Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: giving back
I appreciate Jack's good words and can only reflect back that those who built before me helped me so much with ideas and dilemma's that I felt it was only right to help others coming into the building phase after me. I took notes, measurements, photos, and video up at Brodhead for a few years before I even began cutting wood and to those builders I owe a big thank you for how they helped me along when I needed it. The gem in all of this Pietenpol stuff are the friends we have made and will make along the way. In retrospect the friendships are just the best--- other guys who just love the same kind of things plus each is unique--some are attorneys, some are corporate pilots, others student pilots, college students, retired WWII veterans, Corvair experts, dentists, factory workers, technicians, artists, sculptors, engineers, publishers, mechanics, airline pilots, military pilots or former veterans, construction and trades people, low time, high time, and no time pilots, some who smoke, some who don't, a guy named Javier who flies for the government of Mexico, judges, guys with great senses of humor, some who are into other things that just amaze us and intrigue us. All just a neat group of folks. ......just a real diverse group. The creativeness of scratch/plans builders always impresses me. After you think there are about 6 ways to do a job you hear some guys idea from Peoria who comes up with a 7th way that is much easier and weighs less ! Impressive people on the list who are just everyday Joe's in most ways otherwise. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: brian jardine <saddleguys(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Broadhead to Oshkosh
Group, I am planning a cross-country trip (driving) from Utah to Broadhead, and then on to Air Adventure at Oshkosh. I am bringing my 3 young boys, 12, 9, and 5. I hope to give them a good dose of Piet exposure. Does anyone have any recommendations for camping at Broadhead, and campgrounds near Oshkosh? I have looked at the Air Adventure planning on their website, but not familiar with the area, I don't know which sites are better than others. I'm sure reservations fill up fast. Hopefully something with fishing close by, to entertain the boys in the evening. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks. Brian Clinton, UT --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: Tim <twilliams(at)mailmt.com>
Subject: Piet. 0-200
After 3 engine failures with a model A engine the builder installed a Cont. 0-200. After I/we did the 'top end' a friend flew it for a total of 3 hours with no problems. Sounds real good now. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Subject: New Piet
Don E said "I haven't checked my speed with a GPS yet...." Another way to check your ground speed is by timing your movement across a mile, then dividing your no. of seconds by 3600. That is your ground speed. Pick a wind free time to do this. In Kansas where the ground is laid out in sq. mile checker boards you can time your self going all 4 directions, add the 4 totals, than divide by 4 to get an average in all directions. This averages out the wind. (I hope that made sense) Beautiful Piet Don. Camping at Brodhed is easy. There are showers. Just put $10 in the kitty, and get a Brodhead 06 button. It off sets costs to the EAA ch. that throws the party. Oshkosh is about the same but they charge for the camping. The public showers are degrading, but if you are worried about your looks, don't. There is always someone there that looks worse than you. See you at Brodhead. Leon S. feeling better about muself already ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Don E's Airplane--from Ohio
From: "DGflyer" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Thanks guys for all the nice comments. The neat thing about building from plans is that you can use ideas from others and create your own blend to build what you like. I really tried to stick to the plans as much as possible, but other small variations like tailwheel, cowl, fuel tank, etc. came from others. I don't think any of the variations I can claim as strictly my own idea. After a decade of attending Brodhead you really do get a good sampling of ideas! I really don't think I could have built it without seeing other airplanes. I have also checked the list archives for ideas for the last couple of years and thought I better try to get a little more involved on here. So thanks to all of the people that have helped me out whether they know it or not! Walt I've spent the last 10 years trying to come up a design/logo for the fuselage side. I guess I'm just not very creative there! Maybe I can get a sponsor...?! By the way normal people don't spend a decade getting one of these in the air. But life and hangar collapses do happen! Don Emch Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=30427#30427 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 24, 2006
From: R Matt Doody <rmattd123(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol
I have noticed Chris Cummin's Pietenpol on Frappr Groups and it appears to have some unique features. From what I can tell in the picture it has dihedral, out ward canted cabanes and steel empennage. I would like to learn more about this unique Piet? Matt --------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Broadhead to Oshkosh
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Brian Camping is right on the field at Broadhead. If you get there early you can get a spot under the trees if tenting. We just put up the tents under the wing of the plane. It's a short ride into town. At OSH the campgrounds are massive. There will be room. If you have room, bring bikes for the trip in and out. If you are refering to private campgrounds, there are some in the area but I don't know them. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: brian jardine To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Broadhead to Oshkosh Group, I am planning a cross-country trip (driving) from Utah to Broadhead, and then on to Air Adventure at Oshkosh. I am bringing my 3 young boys, 12, 9, and 5. I hope to give them a good dose of Piet exposure. Does anyone have any recommendations for camping at Broadhead, and campgrounds near Oshkosh? I have looked at the Air Adventure planning on their website, but not familiar with the area, I don't know which sites are better than others. I'm sure reservations fill up fast. Hopefully something with fishing close by, to entertain the boys in the evening. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks. Brian Clinton, UT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: ELT and booster seats
Date: Apr 24, 2006
Yes indeed, the ELT in 41CC went off when it nosed over. No emergency response that I know of, not even a phone call, and we tested the ELT to see if the signal was going out... it was, even a day after the event and the ELT going all that time. Of course, after the first 4 to 6 hours the airplane was inside a metal hangar so little or no signal would have gone out, but it did trigger and transmit. And Mike, pay attention: in accordance with the FARs, since the ELT went off, I have now replaced the battery on the unit with a new one. Good for 24 more months or the next event that triggers it, whichever comes first ;o) Second part of my post has to do with booster seats for small passengers. Seeing the picture of Don's airplane with youngsters all over it reminded me that I need to prepare something for our 5-year-old grandson's first airplane ride in 41CC. He is just about the same size as the lad in the front cockpit of Don's Piet so I figure I'll make something with about 4" of lift that secures in the front 'pit with Velcro the same as the present front seat (upholstered piece of 1/4" ply). I'll use several layers of very firm foam as a build-up, then a cushy top layer and naugahyde over that, with a piece of ply as the base of course. While it is possible for a short passenger to see out the sides without a booster, it would be better if they could sit a bit higher and I believe the shoulder strap would be more effective that way too. Anybody else have any experience with booster seats or cushions? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Pitch trimming
We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pitch trimming
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com>
You could try the old bungee cord on the stick approach - a short bungee cord pulling back on the stick, with a sliding ring that can be moved up or down the stick as required to apply the correct spring force. I installed a spring assist trim system similar to Mike Cuy's on mine, with a set of springs pulling on the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. Spring tension can be adjusted with a lever in the cockpit. Works great. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Apr 25, 2006
Subject: Re: Pitch trimming
Jeff, Had the same experience with 41CC in the beginning. Forward 16 gal fuel tank, 22lb metal prop and a 140 lb test pilot. When he released the stick it nose dived. We twixed the hor stab, ( eyeballed it so it lined up with lower edge of engine rocker covers). That helped some. I Africanized a trim tab. Took a flat rubber hold down strap about a foot long. Anchored both ends to front of seat so it was just loose when wrapped around the bottom of the stick. As rear pressure was needed merely slide the rubber strap up the stick until everything equalized. If you forget to lower the strap on landing don't worry as you can override it's pressure. It is a way of solving your little problem. Another solution is have your pilot eat more Louisiana Crawfish. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Pitch trimming
I've flow with spring-assisted systems in gliders and they work ok. My two concerns are that you're effectively applying continuous pressure to the whole system from the stick all the way back to the elevator, which I'm not convinced would contribute to premature wear to the bushings and bearings in the middle of it all. Assuming you just bungee the stick, do you have enough travel left to be able to fly it safely? This is another argument against applying extra forces up front. Trim tabs or a re-arrangement of your tail feathers wouldn't have this same effect. My second concern is that if something happens to your elevator linkage system, you're screwd in a big way. I've certainly flown a good number of aircraft in which this is a risk, but an airplane of mine will have some kind of independent trim system which can be used independently of the primary elevator linkage. Granted, a Piet doesn't have this by design, but mine will. Most commonly used are flying trim systems or some kind of adjustment to the horizontal stabilizer like the jack screw in my J-3. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com> >Sent: Apr 25, 2006 8:21 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > > >You could try the old bungee cord on the stick approach - a short bungee >cord pulling back on the stick, with a sliding ring that can be moved up >or down the stick as required to apply the correct spring force. > >I installed a spring assist trim system similar to Mike Cuy's on mine, >with a set of springs pulling on the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. >Spring tension can be adjusted with a lever in the cockpit. Works >great. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP >Raleigh, NC > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff >Boatright >Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:02 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > > >We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it >tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading >edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due >to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post >of the fuselage. > >Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the >turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the >stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to >hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the >plane still wants to nose down. > >Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if >there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess >another solution would be trim tabs. > >I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come >up with an answer. > >Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, > >Jeff > > > > > > > >Cardinal Health -- Working together. For life. (sm) >_________________________________________________ > proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pitch trimming
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
Don't forget,your engine is already in a nose down attitude.Don't let this throw you off. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: April 25, 2006 8:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pitch trimming
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Jack, Do you have any pictures of the arrangement? Jack Textor You could try the old bungee cord on the stick approach - a short bungee cord pulling back on the stick, with a sliding ring that can be moved up or down the stick as required to apply the correct spring force. I installed a spring assist trim system similar to Mike Cuy's on mine, with a set of springs pulling on the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. Spring tension can be adjusted with a lever in the cockpit. Works great. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life
There is a very impressive press conference video of Sean describing his entire ordeal a few weeks ago at the bottom of this newswire from AvWeb. The guy is one impressive person. Mike C. http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/609-full.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life
Thoughts of losing elevator control like this guy did is the reason that I have thought of installing independent elevator trim as you see on Pipers and Cessnas. Have even looked at the Mac electronic trim servos, just a big RC servo that would fit inside one of the flippers with 3 wires running up to the cockpit. Landing with only trim control wouldn't be fun but preferable to bailing out with no parachute. Rick H. On 4/25/06, Michael D Cuy wrote: > > Michael.D.Cuy(at)grc.nasa.gov> > > > There is a very impressive press conference video of Sean describing his > entire ordeal a few weeks ago at the bottom of this newswire > > from AvWeb. The guy is one impressive person. > > Mike C. > > http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/609-full.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- Rick Holland "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Rick, I too have considered the MAC. My RV 8 had one, they were great. The problem is the thickness of the Piets H-Stab is not enough to completely house the servo. Also the Stabs are not directly tied together. Jack Textor Thoughts of losing elevator control like this guy did is the reason that I have thought of installing independent elevator trim as you see on Pipers and Cessnas. Have even looked at the Mac electronic trim servos, just a big RC servo that would fit inside one of the flippers with 3 wires running up to the cockpit. Landing with only trim control wouldn't be fun but preferable to bailing out with no parachute. Rick H. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life
Date: Apr 25, 2006
From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
How bout having two individual control sticks,one for one side of the elevator and one for the other.That would make for some interesting flying eh! ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack T. Textor Sent: April 25, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life Rick, I too have considered the MAC. My RV 8 had one, they were great. The problem is the thickness of the Piets H-Stab is not enough to completely house the servo. Also the Stabs are not directly tied together. Jack Textor Thoughts of losing elevator control like this guy did is the reason that I have thought of installing independent elevator trim as you see on Pipers and Cessnas. Have even looked at the Mac electronic trim servos, just a big RC servo that would fit inside one of the flippers with 3 wires running up to the cockpit. Landing with only trim control wouldn't be fun but preferable to bailing out with no parachute. Rick H. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: Pitch trimming
Date: Apr 25, 2006
I am no expert on aeronautical engineering but as a photographer I have seen plenty of aircraft with aluminum tabs added to the elevator that are bent at angles to correct pitch in level flight. I am not sure about the strength of these into a wooden elevator? Any comments on this? Too simple? Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post of the fuselage. Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the plane still wants to nose down. Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess another solution would be trim tabs. I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come up with an answer. Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Carl Vought" <carbarvo(at)knology.net>
Subject: Re: Pitch trimming
Date: Apr 25, 2006
I've been wondering the same thing. I don't think I've ever seen a Piet with a "bendable" trim tab. Have I just not been looking hard enough?....Carl Vought ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Stapleton" <foto(at)alaska.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > > I am no expert on aeronautical engineering but as a photographer I have > seen > plenty of aircraft with aluminum tabs added to the elevator that are bent > at > angles to correct pitch in level flight. I am not sure about the strength > of > these into a wooden elevator? Any comments on this? Too simple? > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff > Boatright > Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch trimming > > > We've been trying to get the Piet to fly hands-off. Currently it > tends to nose down. We thought tried to lower the stabilizer leading > edge / raise the trailing edge, but could not move it much at all due > to the rudder being hinged on both the vertical fin and the rear post > of the fuselage. > > Next step was to put twist into the stabilizer by cranking on the > turnbuckles. This put an easily-seen front-to-rear upturn on the > stabilizer. Flight testing showed that this helped - we're having to > hold about half the back stick that we had to before. However, the > plane still wants to nose down. > > Next step? We could crank in more stabilizer twist. Do you know if > there is a safety limit to how much twist can be put in? I guess > another solution would be trim tabs. > > I searched the archives on "trim" and "stabilizer" and couldn't come > up with an answer. > > Thanks for any thoughts on the subject, > > Jeff > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Trim tab was pitch trim saved Sean Tucker's life
From: Hans Vander Voort <hans.vander.voort(at)alfalaval.com>
Date: Apr 25, 2006
Rick, The only problem I see with this is that the Elevator flippers are not connected (no torque tube) Thus you trim only one flipper and not the other. Unless of course you place servos in both. Same for aluminum trim tabs Further the elevator cables are 3/32 with a strength of 1000+ Lbs. With a 1 : 5 ratio on your stick you will need to put 200 Lbs of force on the stick to break something. The only way you will such high stress on the tail surfaces is during aerobatics (better bring a parachute) Hans ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "tmbrant1(at)netzero.com" <tmbrant1(at)netzero.net>
Date: Apr 25, 2006
Subject: Re: Pitch trimming
Bill Rewey (I believe) has an aluminum tab on his Piet - it's the Navy painted one you've probably seen before. I don't think he's on the list. In addition to that he's got a bungee cord with an Adel clamp around the stick which is slid up and down as needed for trim. Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Eric Williams" <ewilliams805(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Rib Jig
Date: Apr 25, 2006
I've got a set of wing ribs that I'll sell you for $150 if you are interested in them. They are somewhere around 10 years old and were owned by others before me so I can't testify to anything about the building process other than that I know they are Douglas Fir and were glued with West System epoxy. I had pictures on Barnstormers as part of the ad where I was trying to sell the project as a whole with ribs, tail feathers, and fuselage but no one bought it and the ad has expired. I guess I'll sell it all separately if that works better. Email me off-list if you (or anyone else) has any interest and I can email pictures back to you. Thanks. Eric >From: "plncrzy" <plncrzy3(at)netscape.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com


April 05, 2006 - April 25, 2006

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-fa