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      > 

      >
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      >
      > 
      > --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445
      > 0-1816126823-1190993537=: 89445--
      >
      >
      > --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445-- 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: integrity?
      
      You mention the battery being behind the rear seat. Since you have a battery I
      am assuming you are not using the Model A, maybe a small Continental, quite possibly
      the Corvair. The Piet, based on what I have read in this forum, tends to
      be tail heavy as it is. Depending upon your size, you may want to consider relocating
      the battery farther forward, possibly on the firewall somewhere if you
      have the room.
      
      Can someone else speak to this (I've done A LOT of reading, but no flying; can
      someone with practical experience put in their two cents)?
      
      
      Thanks for the suggestions on the cable clamps. I will change them, and I 
      plan on using spiral wrap to cover all the wires. I just did the wiring so 
      I know I am not finished yet. The black and red wires that you see on the 
      stb. side are 8 gage from the battery to the starter and ground. Battery is 
      right behind the rear seat. Gardiner Mason---- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Ryan Mueller" 
      
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:32 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      
      
      > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138
      > X-TM-AS-Engine-Type: TMASE
      > X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: TMAS_OE-3.53.0.1042-3.6.1039-15452000
      > Reply-To: 
      
      > X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.860-5.000-31
      >
      >
      > so-8859-1
      > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
      >
      > I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to 
      > pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise 
      > questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by 
      > what those pics show.
      >
      > On the pic of the front cockpit, the black and red wires that are running 
      > front to rear below the door; those are pretty hefty wires, and sort of 
      > look like extension cord wire. Could you expound on what they are for, and 
      > what type/size of wire it is?
      >
      > Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: what sort of 
      > clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, they rather 
      > resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I used something 
      > looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I cannot recall 
      > seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I would not. I 
      > would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style clamps instead.
      >
      > Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire is routed through those 
      > clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a couple of paragraphs in 
      > AC-43.13 that would raise flags to me.
      >
      > 11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a manner that 
      > chafing will not occur against the airframe or other components.
      >
      > &
      >
      > 11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are routed, insofar as practicable, 
      > so that they are not exposed to damage by personnel moving within the 
      > aircraft.
      >
      > Para Q wouldn't be a huge concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as 
      > sharp as an aluminum stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. 
      > This may not be that much of an issue; I defer to those with more 
      > practical experience on this one.
      >
      > Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what appears to be 
      > hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the cockpit, I 
      > would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring as they 
      > move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up a large 
      > passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the cockpit, and 
      > could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better (and you should 
      > assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear cockpit, if one is 
      > not diminutive, I would think there would be a good likelihood of snagging 
      > those wires.
      >
      > As far as where to put them, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low 
      > next to the passenger, to avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where 
      > they pass the rudder bar, to avoid tangling your feet.
      >
      > One final question: have you had a Tech Counselor or another set of eyes 
      > look at things as you build?
      >
      > Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious mind. Have 
      > a good day,
      >
      > Ryan
      > Gardiner Mason  wrote:       I don't have any 
      > plans, but I am sending two  pictures (one in this email, and another on 
      > the way.) Does this give you any  idea?
      >
      > Thank you for your comments-
      > -Gardiner
      >
      >
      > back door
      >    ----- Original Message ----- 
      >   From:    Phillips, Jack
      >   To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:01    PM
      >   Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:    integrity?
      >
      >
      >   Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings.  I    wouldn't plan on 
      > getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or    not.
      >
      >   Jack Phillips
      >   Raleigh, NC
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      >   From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 
      > Gardiner Mason
      > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51    AM
      > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject:    Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      >
      >
      >      I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two    doors doors (7" deep 
      > and 12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear    cockpit. Before 
      > covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each    vertical 
      > and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the    bellcrank 
      > stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then cut    the 
      > doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with fir and 
      > hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin arrangement to 
      > lock    the doors in place. Have I protected the truss integridy on this 
      > side? I am    not an engineer and I just want to know if I did the right 
      > thing.
      >
      >   Gardiner Mason
      >
      >
      >  ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com
      >
      > _________________________________________________
      >
      > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      > notify the sender
      >
      > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - 
      > Norsk - Portuguese
      >
      >
      > 
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 
      > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV.  Watch previews, get 
      > listings, and more!
      > --0-1816126823-1190993537=:89445
      > Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
      > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
      >
      > I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to 
      > pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise 
      > questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by 
      > what those pics show.
      
      On the pic of the front cockpit, the black 
      > and red wires that are running front to rear below the door; those are 
      > pretty hefty wires, and sort of look like extension cord wire. Could you 
      > expound on what they are for, and what type/size of wire it 
      > is?
      
      Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: 
      > what sort of clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, 
      > they rather resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I 
      > used something looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I 
      > cannot recall seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I 
      > would not. I would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style 
      > clamps instead.
      
      Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire
      > is routed through those clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a 
      > couple of paragraphs in AC-43.13 that would raise flags to 
      > me.
      
      11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a 
      > manner that chafing will not occur against the airframe or other 
      > components.
      
      &
      
      11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are 
      > routed, insofar as practicable, so that they are not exposed to damage by 
      > personnel moving within the aircraft.
      
      Para Q wouldn't be a huge 
      > concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as sharp as an aluminum 
      > stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. This may not be that 
      > much of an issue; I defer to those with more practical experience on this 
      > one.
      
      Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what 
      > appears to be hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the 
      > cockpit, I would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring 
      > as they move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up
      > a large passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the 
      > cockpit, and could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better 
      > (and you should assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear 
      > cockpit, if one is not diminutive, I would think there would be a good 
      > likelihood of snagging those wires. 
      
      As far as where to put them, 
      > I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low next to the passenger, to 
      > avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where they pass the rudder bar, 
      > to avoid tangling your feet. 
      
      One final question: have you had a 
      > Tech Counselor or another set of eyes look at things as you build? 
      > 
      
      Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious 
      > mind. Have a good day,
      
      Ryan
      Gardiner Mason 
      >  wrote:
      
      
      > style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; 
      > padding-left: 5px;">    
      > name="GENERATOR">   I 
      > don't have any plans, but I am sending two  pictures (one in this email, 
      > and another on the way.) Does this give you any  idea?
      
      >  
      
      > face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your comments-
      
      > face="Arial" size="2">-Gardiner
      
      > size="2"> 
      
      > src="cid:2123317407000000(at)web54407.mail.yahoo.com" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025" 
      > height="382" width="575">
       back door
      
      >    -----  
      > Original Message ----- 
         From:    
      > href="mailto:Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com">Phillips, Jack 
      
      > To: 
      > title="pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" 
      > href="mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com">pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
      > 
         
      > style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; 
      > font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; 
      > font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">Sent: Thursday, 
      > September 27, 2007 1:01    PM
         Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:    integrity?
      
      > 
      
         
      > class="191315816-27092007">
      > size="2">Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings.  I 
      > wouldn't plan on getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or 
      > not.
         
      > class="191315816-27092007">
      > size="2"> 
         
      > class="191315816-27092007">
      > face="Arial" size="2">Jack Phillips
         
      > align="left">
      > face="Arial" size="2">Raleigh, NC
      
         
      > class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">   
      ---------------------------------
      
      > tabindex="-1">   From: 
      > href="mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com">owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 
      > Gardiner Mason
      Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51 
      > AM
      > href="mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com">pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      Subject: 
      > Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      
      
         
         
      > face="Arial" size="2">   I am 
      > building a Pietenpol and I have cut two    doors doors (7" deep and 12" 
      > wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear    cockpit. Before
      > ">fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV.  Watch previews, get listings, 
      > and more!
      >
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      === message truncated ==
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
From: 
Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: 
Re: integrity?
      
      
      I have a C75 on mine with battery and starter. If I could hang the 
      battery in front of the prop, I'd do it!  Our Piet, like many, is 
      tail heavy.
      
      >You mention the battery being behind the rear seat. Since you have a 
      >battery I am assuming you are not using the Model A, maybe a small 
      >Continental, quite possibly the Corvair. The Piet, based on what I 
      >have read in this forum, tends to be tail heavy as it is. Depending 
      >upon your size, you may want to consider relocating the battery 
      >farther forward, possibly on the firewall somewhere if you have the 
      >room.
      >
      >Can someone else speak to this (I've done A LOT of reading, but no 
      >flying; can someone with practical experience put in their two 
      >cents)?
      >
      >
      
      
      -- 
      
      _____________________________________________________________
      Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
      Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
      Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
      mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
integrity?
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
      You're a good man, Gardiner.  It takes a smart builder to put his
      creation out for everyone to see, and then have the sense to make
      changes as they are suggested.  I remember how cautious I was to show my
      project to our Tech Counselor, fearing he would be full of criticisms.
      He made a few good suggestions, which I happily implemnted on my
      airplane.  It is ALWAYS a good idea to have another set of eyes look at
      your project.  Sometimes you just can't see problems because you are too
      close to the project, but a fresh set of eyes can spot it immediately. 
      
      Do you have a Tech Counselor in your local EAA Chapter?  If so, have him
      come out and look over your project.  You mentioned that you've got a
      friend who built an RV8 - have him look it over too.  It is not possible
      to have too many people inspect it.  Don't count on the FAA inspection
      to find anything.  They will mostly be looking at your paperwork, to
      make sure you won't be a liability to them.  They care very little if
      you hurt yourself, as long as you don't hurt anyone else or cause a
      problem for the FAA.
      
      This group is a very valuable resource, as you've found.  The thing to
      realize is that a lot of opinions are bandied about, some of which are
      based on fact.  The tough part is figuring out which ones are fact, and
      which ones are just opinions.
      
      Jack Phillips
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gardiner
      Mason
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:07 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      
      
      
      Thanks for the suggestions on the cable clamps. I will change them, and
      I 
      plan on using spiral wrap to cover all the wires. I just did the wiring
      so 
      I know I am not finished yet. The black and red wires that you see on
      the 
      stb. side are 8 gage from the battery to the starter and ground. Battery
      is 
      right behind the rear seat. Gardiner Mason---- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:32 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      
      
      > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138
      > X-TM-AS-Engine-Type: TMASE
      > X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: TMAS_OE-3.53.0.1042-3.6.1039-15452000
      > Reply-To: 
      > X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.860-5.000-31
      >
      >
      > so-8859-1
      > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
      >
      > I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
      
      > pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise 
      > questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going
      by 
      > what those pics show.
      >
      > On the pic of the front cockpit, the black and red wires that are
      running 
      > front to rear below the door; those are pretty hefty wires, and sort
      of 
      > look like extension cord wire. Could you expound on what they are for,
      and 
      > what type/size of wire it is?
      >
      > Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: what sort
      of 
      > clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, they
      rather 
      > resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I used
      something 
      > looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I cannot
      recall 
      > seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I would not. I
      
      > would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style clamps
      instead.
      >
      > Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire is routed through
      those 
      > clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a couple of
      paragraphs in 
      > AC-43.13 that would raise flags to me.
      >
      > 11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a manner that
      
      > chafing will not occur against the airframe or other components.
      >
      > &
      >
      > 11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are routed, insofar as
      practicable, 
      > so that they are not exposed to damage by personnel moving within the 
      > aircraft.
      >
      > Para Q wouldn't be a huge concern. I understand a wood longeron is not
      as 
      > sharp as an aluminum stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there.
      
      > This may not be that much of an issue; I defer to those with more 
      > practical experience on this one.
      >
      > Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what appears to be
      
      > hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the cockpit, I
      
      > would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring as
      they 
      > move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up a large 
      > passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the cockpit,
      and 
      > could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better (and you
      should 
      > assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear cockpit, if one
      is 
      > not diminutive, I would think there would be a good likelihood of
      snagging 
      > those wires.
      >
      > As far as where to put them, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them
      low 
      > next to the passenger, to avoid any disturbance, and a little higher
      where 
      > they pass the rudder bar, to avoid tangling your feet.
      >
      > One final question: have you had a Tech Counselor or another set of
      eyes 
      > look at things as you build?
      >
      > Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious mind.
      Have 
      > a good day,
      >
      > Ryan
      > Gardiner Mason  wrote:       I don't have any 
      > plans, but I am sending two  pictures (one in this email, and another
      on 
      > the way.) Does this give you any  idea?
      >
      > Thank you for your comments-
      > -Gardiner
      >
      >
      > back door
      >    ----- Original Message ----- 
      >   From:    Phillips, Jack
      >   To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:01    PM
      >   Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:    integrity?
      >
      >
      >   Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings.  I    wouldn't plan
      on 
      > getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or    not.
      >
      >   Jack Phillips
      >   Raleigh, NC
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      >   From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 
      > Gardiner Mason
      > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51    AM
      > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject:    Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      >
      >
      >      I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two    doors doors (7"
      deep 
      > and 12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear    cockpit.
      Before 
      
      > covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each
      vertical 
      > and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the    bellcrank 
      > stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then cut
      the 
      > doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with fir
      and 
      > hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin arrangement to
      
      > lock    the doors in place. Have I protected the truss integridy on
      this 
      > side? I am    not an engineer and I just want to know if I did the
      right 
      > thing.
      >
      >   Gardiner Mason
      >
      >
      >  ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com
      >
      > _________________________________________________
      >
      > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
      please 
      > notify the sender
      >
      > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese -
      Nederlands - 
      > Norsk - Portuguese
      >
      >
      > 
      >
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr
      onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 
      > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV.  Watch previews, get 
      > listings, and more!
      > --0-1816126823-1190993537=:89445
      > Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
      > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
      >
      > I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
      
      > pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise 
      > questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going
      by 
      > what those pics show.

On the pic of the front cockpit, the
      black 
      > and red wires that are running front to rear below the door; those are
      
      > pretty hefty wires, and sort of look like extension cord wire. Could
      you 
      > expound on what they are for, and what type/size of wire it 
      > is?

Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear
      cockpits: 
      > what sort of clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these
      pics, 
      > they rather resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I
      
      > used something looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before.
      I 
      > cannot recall seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally
      I 
      > would not. I would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style 
      > clamps instead.

Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire
      > is routed through those clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there
      are a 
      > couple of paragraphs in AC-43.13 that would raise flags to 
      > me.

11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a 
      > manner that chafing will not occur against the airframe or other 
      > components.

&

11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables
      are 
      > routed, insofar as practicable, so that they are not exposed to damage
      by 
      > personnel moving within the aircraft.

Para Q wouldn't be a huge
      
      > concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as sharp as an aluminum 
      > stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. This may not be that
      
      > much of an issue; I defer to those with more practical experience on
      this 
      > one.

Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what 
      > appears to be hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in
      the 
      > cockpit, I would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the
      wiring 
      > as they move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up
      > a large passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the 
      > cockpit, and could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any
      better 
      > (and you should assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear 
      > cockpit, if one is not diminutive, I would think there would be a good
      
      > likelihood of snagging those wires. 

As far as where to put
      them, 
      > I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low next to the passenger, to 
      > avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where they pass the rudder
      bar, 
      > to avoid tangling your feet. 

One final question: have you had
      a 
      > Tech Counselor or another set of eyes look at things as you build? 
      > 

Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious
      
      > mind. Have a good day,

Ryan
Gardiner Mason 
      > <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; 
      > padding-left: 5px;">     name="GENERATOR">   
I 
      > don't have any plans, but I am sending two  pictures (one in this
      email, 
      > and another on the way.) Does this give you any  idea?
 
      > 
 
 
 face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your comments-
      
 face="Arial" size="2">-Gardiner
 
 size="2"> 
 
 src="cid:2123317407000000(at)web54407.mail.yahoo.com"
      v:shapes="_x0000_i1025" 
      > height="382" width="575">
 
back door
 
      > 
   
-----  
      > Original Message ----- 
   
From:     href="mailto:Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com">Phillips, Jack
      
 
      > 
To:  title="pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" 
      >
      href="mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com">pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com<
      /a> 
      > 
   
 style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; 
      > font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; 
      > font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">Sent: Thursday, 
      > September 27, 2007 1:01    PM
   
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:    integrity?
 
      > 

   
 class="191315816-27092007"> size="2">Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings.  I 
      > wouldn't plan on getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned
      or 
      > not.
   
 class="191315816-27092007"> size="2"> 
   
 class="191315816-27092007"> face="Arial" size="2">Jack Phillips
   
 align="left"> face="Arial" size="2">Raleigh, NC

   
 class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
      
 tabindex="-1">   From: 
      href="mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com">owner-pietenpol-
      list-server(at)matronics.com 
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 
      > Gardiner Mason
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51 
      > AM
To: 
      href="mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com">pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com<
      /a>
Subject: 
      > Pietenpol-List: integrity?

   

      
 face="Arial" size="2">   
I am 
      > building a Pietenpol and I have cut two    doors doors (7" deep and
      12" 
      > wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear    cockpit. Before
      > ">fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV.  Watch previews, get
      listings, 
      > and more!
      >
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      > 7CuQBCw5BFG3I5HSpOmfSm5+Y1IH/9k
      >
      > 

      >
      >
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr
      onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      >
      > 
      > --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445
      > 0-1816126823-1190993537=: 89445--
      >
      >
      > --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445-- 
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Patrick Panzera" <Panzera@experimental-aviation.com>
Subject: 
integrity? 2nd picture
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
      
      
      An airframe while in flight is not likened to a 20' 2x12 plank supported by
      sawhorses at both ends, with two fat people sitting in the middle. 
      
      The total weight of the plane and the total support of the weight are
      virtually in the same place (CL just behind of the CG) and unless you have a
      wicked aft CG where the horizontal stabilizer is supporting as much weight
      as the wing (which by size alone is physically impossible), I can't see how
      any 3g gusts are going to cause the fuselage to fracture in the middle. 
      
      If the plane is being flown within the specified W&B limits, the wing is
      lifting as the elevator is pushing down, and any upward gust should take
      stress off the fuselage, not add to it... and in fact, the flying surfaces
      should stall before they end up working against one another in a manner that
      could cause the fuselage to buckle in the middle, stress riser or not. 
      
      Here's another way to look at it. Take a surfboard and a Boogie Board and
      attach them together with a plank between them, producing a planform that
      represents an airplane. The surfboard being the wing, the Boogie Board being
      the empennage and the plank representing the fuselage.
      
      Now float the "craft" in water and start adding weight to the middle of the
      plank in an effort to bust it. A TRUE and proper test would be to put all
      the weight on the plank where it meets the surfboard, but for this exercise
      we'll put it in the middle. 
      
      With each pound added, I would expect to see the Boogie Board to begin to
      submerge with little or no distortion to the 2x12. 
      
      A real static load test would be to support the rear of the Piet by the
      horizontal stabilizer ONLY (not the tail wheel) and load the fuselage until
      something breaks. My money would be on the horizontal stab failing WAY
      before the notched fuselage.
      
      But then again, I'm not a PE.
      
      Pat
      
      
      ==========================================================
      Gardiner, I am an engineer, and used to work in Aerospace. It would have
      been useful for you to ask these questions BEFORE you built the fuselage (I
      would have said "Don't do it"). What you havemay beadequate, for normal
      operations. What I can't predict is how it will behave under adverse
      conditions. Presumably, if you need a door to get the passenger or the
      pilot in, they are larger than normal folks and will put a good bit of load
      on the structure. I have always used the lack of easy entry/egress of the
      front cockpit to limit the type of passenger whom I take up. It seems that
      young, slim-figured women (particularly pretty ones) have no trouble getting
      into the front 'pit. Curiously, it seems to discourage overweight males
      with beer-bellies. My Piet has a 65 Continental and is heavier than most
      with an empty weight of over 700 lbs. It does not climb well with a load on
      a hot day. Encouraging loading it by making it easy for the load to get in
      is not necessarily a good idea.
      
      Several people have commented on the loads a hard landing will put on the
      structure. I'm not so concerned about that because a failurethere will not
      be likely to kill you. I'm more concerned with what happens when you are
      carrying a 200 lb passenger with a full load of fuel and hit a bunch of
      turbulence. I have a G meter in my RV4 and there have been a number of
      times when I've hit turbulence that registered more than 3 G's. If you are
      200 lbs and your passenger is too, and you've got say 15 gallons of fuel,
      and assuming you've got a Pietenpol of average empty weight of around 650
      lbs, that 3 G thermal will be imposing a load of 3,420 lbs on your
      structure.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Patrick Panzera" <Panzera@experimental-aviation.com>
Subject: 
integrity? 2nd picture
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
      
      Aren't the stresses imposed on the fuselage during a "yank and bank" the
      opposite of those during a taxi?
      
      
      Pat
      
      
      Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point is to
      test it in flight.  Wear a parachute!  Try to get to a safe altitude (where
      you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put some severe loads on it
      by yanking and banking, just to see if you can break it.  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
integrity? 2nd picture
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
      Pat,
      
      What you say is true, up to a point.  Most airplanes do in fact have a download
      from the tail, while the wing is providing lift.  Pietenpols don't necessarily
      fit that mold, however.  Most Pietenpols, mine included, fly with the tail actually
      providing some lift.  Look at a photo of a Piet in flight and you will
      most likely see a little bit of down elevator being carried.  Be that as it may,
      what I am concerned about is not normal level flight but the loading produced
      by a sudden burst of turbulence, which may be up, down or sideways.  I've
      flown my Pietenpol in more turbulence than I wished for, as have Mike Cuy and
      Chuck Gantzer, and I can tell you I wouldn't be comfortable doing it with cutouts
      in the top longeron, unless there is substantial reinforcement.
      
      I disagree with your statement about a static load test.  For one thing, I'm more
      concerned with dynamic loading.  To determine what would happen with a sudden
      +G load, suspend the fuselage by the lift strut attach points (there is very
      little lift carried by the cabane struts in a Pietenpol, since the lift struts
      attach almost exactly in the middle of the wing panels).  The tail loading
      is probably small enough to disregard, but for the sake of argument, let's use
      your idea of a small download on the tail.  At any rate, you've got a substantial
      moment in the tail of the aircraft which is being carried as tension in the
      upper longerons.  Now impart a sudden acceleration upwards, as if you just
      flew into a thermal.  The airplane is balanced, so the sum of the forces and moments
      are zero and the fuselage does not pitch up or down.  But the longerons
      will certainly feel the increase in load.  How much load are they carrying? 
      I haven't run an analysis on it to know for sure.  
      
      Jack
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Panzera
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:30 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
      
      --> <Panzera@Experimental-Aviation.com>
      
      
      An airframe while in flight is not likened to a 20' 2x12 plank supported by sawhorses
      at both ends, with two fat people sitting in the middle. 
      
      The total weight of the plane and the total support of the weight are virtually
      in the same place (CL just behind of the CG) and unless you have a wicked aft
      CG where the horizontal stabilizer is supporting as much weight as the wing (which
      by size alone is physically impossible), I can't see how any 3g gusts are
      going to cause the fuselage to fracture in the middle. 
      
      If the plane is being flown within the specified W&B limits, the wing is lifting
      as the elevator is pushing down, and any upward gust should take stress off
      the fuselage, not add to it... and in fact, the flying surfaces should stall before
      they end up working against one another in a manner that could cause the
      fuselage to buckle in the middle, stress riser or not. 
      
      Here's another way to look at it. Take a surfboard and a Boogie Board and attach
      them together with a plank between them, producing a planform that represents
      an airplane. The surfboard being the wing, the Boogie Board being the empennage
      and the plank representing the fuselage.
      
      Now float the "craft" in water and start adding weight to the middle of the plank
      in an effort to bust it. A TRUE and proper test would be to put all the weight
      on the plank where it meets the surfboard, but for this exercise we'll put
      it in the middle. 
      
      With each pound added, I would expect to see the Boogie Board to begin to submerge
      with little or no distortion to the 2x12. 
      
      A real static load test would be to support the rear of the Piet by the horizontal
      stabilizer ONLY (not the tail wheel) and load the fuselage until something
      breaks. My money would be on the horizontal stab failing WAY before the notched
      fuselage.
      
      But then again, I'm not a PE.
      
      Pat
      
      
      ==========================================================
      Gardiner, I am an engineer, and used to work in Aerospace. It would have been useful
      for you to ask these questions BEFORE you built the fuselage (I would have
      said "Don't do it"). What you havemay beadequate, for normal operations. What
      I can't predict is how it will behave under adverse conditions. Presumably,
      if you need a door to get the passenger or the pilot in, they are larger than
      normal folks and will put a good bit of load on the structure. I have always
      used the lack of easy entry/egress of the front cockpit to limit the type of passenger
      whom I take up. It seems that young, slim-figured women (particularly
      pretty ones) have no trouble getting into the front 'pit. Curiously, it seems
      to discourage overweight males with beer-bellies. My Piet has a 65 Continental
      and is heavier than most with an empty weight of over 700 lbs. It does not climb
      well with a load on a hot day. Encouraging loading it by making it easy for
      the load to get in is not necessarily a good idea.
      
      Several people have commented on the loads a hard landing will put on the structure.
      I'm not so concerned about that because a failurethere will not be likely
      to kill you. I'm more concerned with what happens when you are carrying a 200
      lb passenger with a full load of fuel and hit a bunch of turbulence. I have
      a G meter in my RV4 and there have been a number of times when I've hit turbulence
      that registered more than 3 G's. If you are 200 lbs and your passenger is
      too, and you've got say 15 gallons of fuel, and assuming you've got a Pietenpol
      of average empty weight of around 650 lbs, that 3 G thermal will be imposing
      a load of 3,420 lbs on your structure.
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
integrity? 2nd picture
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      Yes.  Who said they weren't?
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
      Panzera
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:39 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
      
      
      Aren't the stresses imposed on the fuselage during a "yank and bank" the
      opposite of those during a taxi?
      
      
      Pat
      
      
      Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point is
      to test it in flight.  Wear a parachute!  Try to get to a safe altitude
      (where you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put some severe
      loads on it by yanking and banking, just to see if you can break it.  
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
      d, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
      rohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
      orsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gardiner Mason" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Re: integrity? 2nd picture
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
      
      Jack, with over 30,000 accident free hours I am not about to do any 
      yanking and banking. nuf said . Gardiner
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Phillips, Jack 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:44 PM
        Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
      
      
        Yes.  Who said they weren't?
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick 
      Panzera
        Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:39 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
      
      
        Aren't the stresses imposed on the fuselage during a "yank and bank" 
      the opposite of those during a taxi?
      
         
      
        Pat
      
         
      
        Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point 
      is to test it in flight.  Wear a parachute!  Try to get to a safe 
      altitude (where you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put 
      some severe loads on it by yanking and banking, just to see if you can 
      break it.  
      
      
      ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      ics.com
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain 
      privileged, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, 
      please notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you 
      is prohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands 
      - Norsk - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Re: A 65 exhaust
Date: 
Sep 28, 2007
      
      
      Don, I hope to get started making them within the next two weeks.  Photo's 
      would really be appreciated.
      Many thanks for everything
      Gene
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 7:37 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A 65 exhaust
      
      
      >
      > Gene,
      >
      > The heat muff is attached to both exhaust pipes.  I've had carb ice a 
      > couple of times in damp weather and pulling carb heat seems to clear it 
      > right up.  There is an inlet at the front of the muff facing right into 
      > the slipstream.  I'll try to get out and get a better picture for you.  I 
      > made the flanges and pipes, it really is pretty simple.  I think I have 
      > maybe $15-$20 in the whole thing.
      >
      > Don
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136962#136962
      >
      >
      > -- 
      > 9/27/2007 11:06 AM
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)tds.net>
Subject: 
Re: integrity?
Date: 
Sep 29, 2007
      
      My Piet's C.G. was at 39% empty when I bought it.  I solved the problem by 
      installing a 12v Gel cell on my firewall.
      It drives my radio, intercom, and GPS and the Hobbs meter.  The batt. with 
      mount weighs 30lbs.  New empty wt. 703 lbs.
      Roman Bukolt NX20795
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:53 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
      
      
      > 
      > I have a C75 on mine with battery and starter. If I could hang the 
      > battery in front of the prop, I'd do it!  Our Piet, like many, is 
      > tail heavy.
      > 
      >>You mention the battery being behind the rear seat. Since you have a 
      >>battery I am assuming you are not using the Model A, maybe a small 
      >>Continental, quite possibly the Corvair. The Piet, based on what I 
      >>have read in this forum, tends to be tail heavy as it is. Depending 
      >>upon your size, you may want to consider relocating the battery 
      >>farther forward, possibly on the firewall somewhere if you have the 
      >>room.
      >>
      >>Can someone else speak to this (I've done A LOT of reading, but no 
      >>flying; can someone with practical experience put in their two 
      >>cents)?
      >>
      >>
      > 
      > 
      > -- 
      > 
      > _____________________________________________________________
      > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
      > Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
      > Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
      > mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      >
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: 
Sep 29, 2007
Subject: 
Tech Counselor 
      
      Anyone have any clues of where I could find a Tech Counselor in South  
      Central Pennsylvania. My local chapter of the EAA is more of a social  organization.
      
      I think I am the only one building, so that does not appear to be  a viable 
      option.
      
      Anyone have any suggestions or contacts I can talk to? I would certainly  
      appreciate a contact.
      
      Please advise
      
      Thanks
      
      John 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gene Rambo" <GeneRambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Tech Counselor
Date: 
Sep 29, 2007
      
      Yes, Gene Briener in/around Gettysburg.  Contact me off list and I can 
      give you his info.  He is a DER and one of the most knowledgeable out 
      there with antiques and homebuilts.
      
      Gene 
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com<mailto:AMsafetyC(at)aol.com> 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:01 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tech Counselor 
      
      
        Anyone have any clues of where I could find a Tech Counselor in South 
      Central Pennsylvania. My local chapter of the EAA is more of a social 
      organization. I think I am the only one building, so that does not 
      appear to be a viable option.
      
        Anyone have any suggestions or contacts I can talk to? I would 
      certainly appreciate a contact.
      
        Please advise
      
        Thanks
      
        John 
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        See what's new ="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
      
      
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 29, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Tech Counselor
      
      John,
      Yeah, that's the trouble with the EAA chapters now.   Thru advice from 
      many when I started to build the Piet, was to join the local EAA.
      The one and only meeting I went to was a mixture of the loudmouths 
      complaining of who didn't bring the right beer or the right sandwichs to 
      the last picnic. I toughed that out, only to hear them call out the end 
      of the meeting.
      Nothing about building or flying.
      
      I have been blessed with meeting  my mentor, Dick Lawson  EAA # 272, 80 
      odd years old, and a wealth of knowledge. He got me thru two projects.  
      Now in his mid 80's he's starting his 10th or so homebuilt,,,a Flying 
      Flea,,,with a 1/2 VW that he builds.
      May he live forever.
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:01 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tech Counselor
      
      
        Anyone have any clues of where I could find a Tech Counselor in South 
      Central Pennsylvania. My local chapter of the EAA is more of a social 
      organization. I think I am the only one building, so that does not 
      appear to be a viable option.
      
        Anyone have any suggestions or contacts I can talk to? I would 
      certainly appreciate a contact.
      
        Please advise
      
        Thanks
      
        John 
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        See what's new ="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
Tech Counselor 
Date: 
Sep 29, 2007
      
      There is a list of TCs on the EAA web site.  There is also a list of flight
      advisors.  Since I am a TC I should know where the list is, but I can't seem
      to be able to find it myself right now.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
      AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
        Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:01 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tech Counselor
      
      
        Anyone have any clues of where I could find a Tech Counselor in South
      Central Pennsylvania. My local chapter of the EAA is more of a social
      organization. I think I am the only one building, so that does not appear to
      be a viable option.
      
        Anyone have any suggestions or contacts I can talk to? I would certainly
      appreciate a contact.
      
        Please advise
      
        Thanks
      
        John
      
      
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      --
        See what's new ="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
Tech Counselor 
Date: 
Sep 29, 2007
      
      Here is the list.  You have to log in to the web site.
      
      http://members.eaa.org/home/lookup/
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Kraut
        Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:01 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tech Counselor
      
      
        There is a list of TCs on the EAA web site.  There is also a list of
      flight advisors.  Since I am a TC I should know where the list is, but I
      can't seem to be able to find it myself right now.
      
        Brian Kraut
        Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
        www.engalt.com
      
          -----Original Message-----
          From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
      AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
          Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:01 PM
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tech Counselor
      
      
          Anyone have any clues of where I could find a Tech Counselor in South
      Central Pennsylvania. My local chapter of the EAA is more of a social
      organization. I think I am the only one building, so that does not appear to
      be a viable option.
      
          Anyone have any suggestions or contacts I can talk to? I would certainly
      appreciate a contact.
      
          Please advise
      
          Thanks
      
          John
      
      
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          See what's new ="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Re: A 65 exhaust
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
      
      
      Steve, I just noticed a set of Aeronca system heat muffs on e-bay.  Not sure 
      if your interested or not.  So far at $10. with no bidders.  Will end today 
      You indicated you had found a good looking heat muff for straight pipes.  Do 
      you have an address?
      Thanks
      Gene 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
From: 
Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: 
Re: A 65 exhaust
      
      
      Gene,
      
      Here is the heat muff I was looking at.  I have no idea what the  
      quality is like, or how effective this one is.  It looks nice, but the  
      only mode of heat transfer is from the header to air, there don't  
      appear to be and fins or anything to help heat transfer.
      
      http://www.robbinswings.com/Carb_Heat_Muff.htm
      
      Also, claims are made that ceramic coatings on headers help insulate  
      the header to keep heat in the exhaust and keep exhaust velocities up.  
        I'm skeptical that a significant insulating effect could be had by  
      this thin coating, but it is something to think about.  Tests after  
      the heat muff is installed on a header with a ceramic coating  
      verifying that the RPM drop is adequate would make me comfortable with  
      it.
      
      Let me know what you think.
      
      
      Steve Ruse
      Norman, OK
      
      
      Quoting Gene & Tammy :
      
      >
      > Steve, I just noticed a set of Aeronca system heat muffs on e-bay.  Not
      > sure if your interested or not.  So far at $10. with no bidders.  Will
      > You indicated you had found a good looking heat muff for straight
      > pipes.  Do you have an address?
      > Thanks
      > Gene
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
From: 
Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: 
Re: A 65 exhaust
      
      
      I just noticed these custom heat muffs, intended for cabin heat.  They  
      seem like they would have a much better heat transfer rate with the  
      inlet at one end and exit at the other.  I bet this guy could make one  
      with only an exit at one end, and the other end could be drilled with  
      1/2" holes to provide the inlet.  Since the air will spend more time  
      traveling along the header, I'm sure you would get more heat than with  
      the other "split tube" design.  Maybe the builder could provide some  
      insight on expected RPM drops using these with lower HP engines.
      
      http://www.robbinswings.com/Custom.htm
      
      Steve Ruse
      Norman, OK
      
      Quoting Gene & Tammy :
      
      >
      > Steve, I just noticed a set of Aeronca system heat muffs on e-bay.  Not
      > sure if your interested or not.  So far at $10. with no bidders.  Will
      > You indicated you had found a good looking heat muff for straight
      > pipes.  Do you have an address?
      > Thanks
      > Gene
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Re: A 65 exhaust
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
      
      
      Thanks Steve,
      I'm going to contact them and get some idea of which one I should use. 
      Talked to my A & P friend yesterday and he says that he may have an extra 
      set of straight pipes.  He's out of town for a few days but will look when 
      he gets back.  If not, I will have a set made up as soon as I can (in the 
      next week or two).
      Thanks again
      Gene 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
airlion(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: 
CG question
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
      
      
      OK guys,another question from the dumb ass. Very soon I plan to mate the wings
      to the fuselage so I can cut the struts to fit and give it a weight check. Is
      it possible to check the CG,and how close will it be after taking it apart again
      to cover and paint? Gardiner Mason--- by the way, I have closed up the rear
      door, and I think it is much stronger than before I cut it. The front door I'm
      beefing up too when in the closed position.
      
      Thanks
      -Gardiner
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Marc Dumay" <captmarcus(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: 
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
      
      Good day Gentleman & Ladies
      
      
      My build partner and I, are about to assemble the fuselage on our Air
      Camper.
      
      Are there any, significant weight and build differences in using an all
      plywood fuselage stained, instead of cloth, paint etc.? 
      
      Could someone with prior build experience, please elaborate on the pros or
      cons.
      
      Is there some data available on the finished weight of a plywood fuselage?
      
      
      Thank you
      
      Captain Marcus
      
      Chatham. On
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: 
      
      Marc,
         
        Ken here in Fargo, ND and I am building a "wide body" fuse of all plywood. I
      have both sides of plywood and the turtle deck of the same. When completed I plan
      on using a very light cloth and West Coast systems covering! Charge on!
         
        Ken
      
      Marc Dumay  wrote:
              st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                Good day Gentleman
      & Ladies
         
        My build partner and I, are about to assemble the fuselage on our Air Camper.
        Are there any, significant weight and build differences in using an all plywood
      fuselage stained, instead of cloth, paint etc.? 
        Could someone with prior build experience, please elaborate on the pros or cons.
        Is there some data available on the finished weight of a plywood fuselage?
         
        Thank you
        Captain Marcus
        Chatham. On
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA,CPO,FAAOP
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and
      lay it on us.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
From: 
shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Fall flying in the piet
      
      Hello group.  Today I flew for about an hour and a half, and really just took in
      the experiance.  It was nice and warm,  farmers out cutting off the beans, some
      cutting hay for the last time of the year, and the leaves starting to change
      color before they die and fall off at the end of another flying season.  The
      smells of fall harvest can eaisly be detected from 800 ft in an open cockpit.
      You can also taste the dust coming off the bean fields as they run the combines
      undernieth you gathering the years crop.  It's funny how fast the fields
      go from muddy dark brown with tiny green leaves poking out of the ground in streight
      rows, to dry light brown dusty and dead looking fields.  I got to see most
      of this years cycle from the back seat of the Pietenpol.  The only sad thing
      of it all is that in a month or so it's all over for the winter, and cabin
      fever sets in.  On the other hand....It will force me to get back to building
      my airplane, so I can experiance the thrill of
       flying MY creation some time in the near future.  To all you with flying Piets
      take advantage of every warm, nice flying day, they are in short supply for the
      year.  To all those building, keep at it it! is all worth it in the end.
         
        Shad Bell
        NX92GB
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally,  mobile search that gives answers, not web links. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Fall flying in the piet
From: 
"Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
      
      
      Shad,
      
      I completely agree with you in taking advantage of the nice days.  The last week
      or so has been some of the nicest flying weather in a long time.  All this week
      is supposed to be nice too.  Yesterday afternoon the whole family and I went
      to the airport to hang out.  I went up for a nice afternoon flight.  We went
      home and were there for an hour or so and my wife looked at me and said "you
      want to go back and fly more don't you?"  Within a few minutes I was headed down
      the road and meeting my brother-in-law to drag him along with me.  What an
      evening for flying!  There is definitely something about open cockpit fall flying
      that is fantastic!
      
      Hey, no complaining about winter and cabin fever!  I flew every month last winter
      except for February and that was only because I had the plane down for a little
      maintenance.  Someday I'll wise up though.  Seems like the guys that have
      been flying longer eventually lose the ambition for winter flying!  Until then
      I'm looking for some homebuilt ski plans.  Anybody have ideas?
      
      Don Emch 
      NX899DE
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137332#137332
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
From: 
Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: 
Re: tenpol-List:
      
      I've just stripped a lot of our fuselage fabric to repair some 
      damage. One advantage of covering the fuselage plywood with fabric 
      held off by fairings is that the fabric keeps oil, etc. off the wood.
      
      I don't know if this makes a difference overall, but some of the 
      unprotected wood seems to have soaked up oil over the years and 
      appears a little weakened by it even though it was heavily varnished. 
      I don't know how general of a problem this is with uncovered wood 
      fuselage.
      
      HTH,
      
      Jeff
      
      >Marc,
      >
      >Ken here in Fargo, ND and I am building a "wide body" fuse of all 
      >plywood. I have both sides of plywood and the turtle deck of the 
      >same. When completed I plan on using a very light cloth and West 
      >Coast systems covering! Charge on!
      >
      >Ken
      >
      >Marc Dumay  wrote:
      >
      >st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
      >Good day Gentleman & Ladies
      >
      >My build partner and I, are about to assemble the fuselage on our Air Camper.
      >Are there any, significant weight and build differences in using an 
      >all plywood fuselage stained, instead of cloth, paint etc.?
      >Could someone with prior build experience, please elaborate on the 
      >pros or cons.
      >Is there some data available on the finished weight of a plywood fuselage?
      >
      >Thank you
      ><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 
      ><http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.matronics.com 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
Re: 
Date: 
Sep 30, 2007
      
      I built mine that way and compared notes with several others at the 
      time.  Mine was about 2-3 lbs heavier.  I covered my fuse with a 2 oz. 
      layer of fiberglass cloth and used West System Epoxy, then applied Spar 
      varnish over that.  As I recall bare fuselage, fully finished was about 
      65 lbs.
      I would consider going with the wood thikness as on plans and where you 
      are adding wood to the rear, use 1/16" plywood.  Keep th weight donw in 
      the rear.
      Dick N.
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Marc Dumay 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 6:11 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: 
      
      
        Good day Gentleman & Ladies
      
         
      
        My build partner and I, are about to assemble the fuselage on our Air 
      Camper.
      
        Are there any, significant weight and build differences in using an 
      all plywood fuselage stained, instead of cloth, paint etc.? 
      
        Could someone with prior build experience, please elaborate on the 
      pros or cons.
      
        Is there some data available on the finished weight of a plywood 
      fuselage?
      
         
      
        Thank you
      
        Captain Marcus
      
        Chatham. On
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
Subject: 
Tundra tires
      
      
      Harvey wrote: let us know how they (tundra tires) work out when you fly
      it.  Harvey, don't hold your breath. I am in my 9th year building and
      just finished wasting a whole summer in a relationship that didn't work
      out. That's a whole warm weather building season that I'll never get
      back. Leon s. in Ks. with a cold winter just ahead.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Tundra tires
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      
      Well as long as there's no chalk mark around ya it means yer still alive
      and if you can take nourishment then you can complete that aircraft.Keep
      at her and she won't fail you like some relationship,that I can
      guarantee ya.Get at her next season and enjoy.We look forward to hearing
      about your first flight.The Piet that I fly was started in 1977 and went
      through three owners,myself included. 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leon
      Stefan
      Sent: October 1, 2007 6:21 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tundra tires
      
      
      Harvey wrote: let us know how they (tundra tires) work out when you fly
      it.  Harvey, don't hold your breath. I am in my 9th year building and
      just finished wasting a whole summer in a relationship that didn't work
      out. That's a whole warm weather building season that I'll never get
      back. Leon s. in Ks. with a cold winter just ahead.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Fall flying in the Piet
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      
      One thing about living in south Texas is that winter is usually only a few 
      days long ;o)  As a matter of fact, some of you will remember that I ferried 
      41CC back home in January and it was great.  Of course a week later we had 
      one of the hardest ice storms that I've ever experienced here (power was out 
      in our neighborhood for several days), but soon after that it was flyable 
      again.  And I can really relate to the comments about being able to 
      appreciate the countryside much better from a low, slow, and open cockpit... 
      the smell of brush being burned, even barbeques from groups picnicking down 
      below.  And the farms, of course.
      
      Some very good flying is still coming up for me after the time changes this 
      month.  With an hour more daylight in the morning I can go to the airport 
      before work and get in a flight in the still morning air every morning if I 
      want to.  Rarely is the deck so low that I can't at least fly the pattern.  
      The smooth morning air will be the perfect time to do some careful analysis 
      of the stall speed of this airplane, something I've wanted to get documented 
      before experimenting with the Landshorter vortex generators.  I have a set 
      for the wings and a set for the underside of the horizontal stabilizer and 
      will test with one and then both.  And I may also try to put gap seals on 
      the elevator/horizontal stabilizer gap but probably won't fool with the 
      rudder gap.  See, it's about economics: my elevator and horizontal 
      stabilizer are both painted yellow and I have plenty of yellow paint to do 
      the gap seals with, but the rudder is several colors.  L-A-Z-Y....
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      NX41CC
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      Gear up for Halo 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. 
      http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_MSNHMTxt_1
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
homebuilt skis for the Piet
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      
      Don (and others interested in skis)-
      
      (Thanks to Michael Silvius for pointing me to this site), there is some 
      interesting information and construction details for homebuilt snow skis on 
      this page:
      
      http://planebuilder.topcities.com/skis.html
      
      These are for an ultralight and use children's snowboards, but you can use 
      full-size snowboards instead, depending on the type of snow you anticipate 
      operating off of.  Deeper, powderier snow will require full size snowboards.
      
      When we lived in Oregon I used to roam the pawn shops from time to time and 
      there was always a good variety of older skis and snowboards available for 
      cheap.  Teenagers don't like to be caught in public using last year's 
      equipment ;o)  Just find two boards the same size and configuration and 
      you're ready to start experimenting.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      Test your celebrity IQ. Play Red Carpet Reveal and earn great prizes! 
      http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_hotmailtextlink2
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: 
Re: 
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      Dick,
      Didn't you a problems getting the spar varnish to stick to the epoxy 
      saturated wood?
      Gordon
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Dick Navratil 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:06 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 
      
      
        I built mine that way and compared notes with several others at the 
      time.  Mine was about 2-3 lbs heavier.  I covered my fuse with a 2 oz. 
      layer of fiberglass cloth and used West System Epoxy, then applied Spar 
      varnish over that.  As I recall bare fuselage, fully finished was about 
      65 lbs.
        I would consider going with the wood thikness as on plans and where 
      you are adding wood to the rear, use 1/16" plywood.  Keep th weight donw 
      in the rear.
        Dick N.
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Marc Dumay 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 6:11 PM
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: 
      
      
          Good day Gentleman & Ladies
      
           
      
          My build partner and I, are about to assemble the fuselage on our 
      Air Camper.
      
          Are there any, significant weight and build differences in using an 
      all plywood fuselage stained, instead of cloth, paint etc.? 
      
          Could someone with prior build experience, please elaborate on the 
      pros or cons.
      
          Is there some data available on the finished weight of a plywood 
      fuselage?
      
           
      
          Thank you
      
          Captain Marcus
      
          Chatham. On
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
Subject: 
Ash supply
From: 
"Ryan Michals" <aircamperace(at)yahoo.com>
      
      
        Has anyone had trouble finding white ash? They tell me the beetles are destroying
      it all. Are there any alternatives?
      
      Ryan Michals
      NXxxxCC
      Clover Clipper
      
      *This message sent from a hand-held wireless device.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
From: 
Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      
      I am in the market for some, too.
      
      >
      >   Has anyone had trouble finding white ash? They tell me the beetles 
      >are destroying it all. Are there any alternatives?
      >
      >Ryan Michals
      >NXxxxCC
      >Clover Clipper
      >
      >*This message sent from a hand-held wireless device.
      
      -- 
      
      _____________________________________________________________
      Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
      Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
      Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
      mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      Guys,
      
      I bought white ash baseball bat blanks from Woodcraft.com, item #  125850.  
      3" x 3" x 40".  $24.95 ea.  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HVandervoo(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      Try Rockler:
      
      _http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2475_ 
      (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2475) 
      
      Hans
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      
      Try your local Woodcraft woodworking store. My local store is where I 
      got my ash. They have many different kinds of hardwood, primarily for 
      woodworkers but that is what Piet builders are as well. 
      Jim
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      
      Woodcraft usually has ash planks that are 1" rough cut or 3/4" surfaced which could
      be laminated as well as the bat blanks. My local store has both.
      
      Jim
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since the 
      fuselage is already built and there is no tank in it.  by the shape of 
      the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear 
      inch of tank between the spars.  That means that to get a 15 gallon tank 
      that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as wide as I can get it.
      
      The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank instead 
      of the normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 plans show.  
      I was thinking that I would run some 1/4" square stringers on the bottom 
      sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that it will still hold the correct 
      undercambered shape.  I will also put steel angle brackets mounted to 
      the front and aft spar to support the weight of the tank.  On the top I 
      will do the plywood just in front of the forward spar and in back of the 
      rear spar with a big removable sheet aluminum cover so I can get the 
      tank out if I need to (or maybe just do all the plywood for now and I 
      can cut it out and make the aluminum cover later if the tank ever needs 
      to come out).
      
      Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see any problems with this?  
      The center section will not be as strong as with the four evenly spaced 
      ribs, but I don't know that is really a problem since each corner is 
      braced by the jury struts and attached to the outer wing panels.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      Brian, I made my centersection 6" wider than plans (Pietenpol, not
      Grega) to get a 15 gallon tank in the centersection.  I covered the
      bottom of the centersection with 1/4" plywood to hold the undercamber.
      I made two ribs out of aluminum channel to provide the airfoil shape on
      top of the tank, and supported the tank with 1" stainless steel straps
      hanging from the top of the spars.  Worked well
      
      
      Jack Phillips
      Raleigh, NC
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
      Kraut
      Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:10 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
      I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since the
      fuselage is already built and there is no tank in it.  by the shape of
      the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear
      inch of tank between the spars.  That means that to get a 15 gallon tank
      that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as wide as I can get it.
      
      The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank instead
      of the normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 plans show.
      I was thinking that I would run some 1/4" square stringers on the bottom
      sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that it will still hold the correct
      undercambered shape.  I will also put steel angle brackets mounted to
      the front and aft spar to support the weight of the tank.  On the top I
      will do the plywood just in front of the forward spar and in back of the
      rear spar with a big removable sheet aluminum cover so I can get the
      tank out if I need to (or maybe just do all the plywood for now and I
      can cut it out and make the aluminum cover later if the tank ever needs
      to come out).
      
      Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see any problems with this?
      The center section will not be as strong as with the four evenly spaced
      ribs, but I don't know that is really a problem since each corner is
      braced by the jury struts and attached to the outer wing panels.
      
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com 
      
      	 
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
      d, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
      rohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
      orsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      I really like the idea of the channel ribs.  I have a shrinker and stretcher
      so I can bend up some channel and get the perfect camber on the top sheet.
      I am thinking that I can just rivet the top aluminum skin to the channels.
      I was also thinking of the straps to hold the tank.  I thought of the steel
      banding material used to hold stuff to pallets and also of nylon web type
      material.
      
      I guess that you could also use the channel ribs on the bottom skin and
      epoxy it to the thin plywood, but I still think that stringers running span
      wise would also work good.  Since the tank would be flat on the bottom you
      would use 1/4" stringers near the center and much taller ones near the spars
      where there is not so much camber.  I have no intentions of supporting the
      tank at all with them.
      
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips,
      Jack
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:45 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
        Brian, I made my centersection 6" wider than plans (Pietenpol, not Grega)
      to get a 15 gallon tank in the centersection.  I covered the bottom of the
      centersection with 1/4" plywood to hold the undercamber.  I made two ribs
      out of aluminum channel to provide the airfoil shape on top of the tank, and
      supported the tank with 1" stainless steel straps hanging from the top of
      the spars.  Worked well
      
      
        Jack Phillips
        Raleigh, NC
      
      
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      --
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Kraut
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:10 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
        I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since the
      fuselage is already built and there is no tank in it.  by the shape of the
      wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear inch of
      tank between the spars.  That means that to get a 15 gallon tank that it
      needs to be about 24" wide which is as wide as I can get it.
      
        The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank instead of
      the normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 plans show.  I was
      thinking that I would run some 1/4" square stringers on the bottom sheet of
      plywood to stiffen it up so that it will still hold the correct
      undercambered shape.  I will also put steel angle brackets mounted to the
      front and aft spar to support the weight of the tank.  On the top I will do
      the plywood just in front of the forward spar and in back of the rear spar
      with a big removable sheet aluminum cover so I can get the tank out if I
      need to (or maybe just do all the plywood for now and I can cut it out and
      make the aluminum cover later if the tank ever needs to come out).
      
        Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see any problems with this?  The
      center section will not be as strong as with the four evenly spaced ribs,
      but I don't know that is really a problem since each corner is braced by the
      jury struts and attached to the outer wing panels.
      
        Brian Kraut
        Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
        www.engalt.com
      
      
      ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      ics.com
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
      privileged, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is
      prohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
      Norsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
From: 
"Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)comcast.net>
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      
      I have attached a portion of Table 4-3b from the Forest Products Laboratorys Wood
      Handbook which list some properties for the different Ash species.
      
      This is a good resource for wood information and FREE to download so the price
      is right. It can be found at:
      
      http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
      
      I believe the Ash pieces in the floor are loaded in tension and compression from
      the wing struts and shear (perpendicular to the grain) from the landing gear.
      The big question is what is the important property to look at. Based on the
      pictures of Jeffs failed Ash cross brace, which appears to have failed in shear
      perpendicular to the grain, I think the Blue Ash looks like a good substitute.
      That said, probably the biggest contributor to the failure was the tapering
      of the ash piece from 1-inch to 3/4-inch causing a stress point.
      
      Chris
      
      --------
      Chris Tracy
      WestCoastPiet.com
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137499#137499
      
      
      Attachments: 
      
      http://forums.matronics.com//files/ash_148.jpg
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
From: 
Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      
      Chris,
      
      Thanks for the data and your thoughts. I agree - 
      the taper was the culprit (couldn't possibly be 
      the landing technique!  :)  ).
      
      The crack appears to have occurred due to the 
      landing gear/wing strut fitting rotating around 
      the longeron, with it's horizontal plate pushing 
      up into the bottom of the fuselage. The edge of 
      the plate neatly aligns with the taper when the 
      fitting rotates.
      
      However, I believe that the plans call for that 
      taper. Regardless, right now we're contemplating 
      either not tapering, which requires moving the 
      fitting bolts and associated holes upwards on the 
      side of the fuselage, further necessitating 
      changes, or adding a steel channel across the 
      underside, as per Grega plans. Or both.
      
      The Grega design, IMO, is better on this point.
      
      (Ducks, runs for exit...)
      
      Jeff
      
      PS: In case you're wondering, the fitting seems 
      to be completely undamaged, which I find amazing.
      
      
      >...
      >I believe the Ash pieces in the floor are loaded 
      >in tension and compression from the wing struts 
      >and shear (perpendicular to the grain) from the 
      >landing gear. The big question is what is the 
      >important property to look at. Based on the 
      >pictures of Jeff*s failed Ash cross brace, 
      >which appears to have failed in shear 
      >perpendicular to the grain, I think the Blue Ash 
      >looks like a good substitute.  That said, 
      >probably the biggest contributor to the failure 
      >was the tapering of the ash piece from 1-inch to 
      >3/4-inch causing a stress point.
      >
      >Chris
      >
      >--------
      >Chris Tracy
      >WestCoastPiet.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
From: 
"Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      
      I got mine locally from this sawmill.
      
      http://www.bairdbros.com/
      
      They specialize in mouldings, but they also sell just the wood.  They let you pick
      or they will ship to you.  They have various thicknesses and high quality.
      If someone needed me to pick some out for them I could.
      
      Don Emch
      NX899DE
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137514#137514
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Catdesigns" <catdesigns(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      
      Jeff,
      
      Yes the taper is on the plans and also on my plane.  After seeing your 
      broken cross brace I am wondering if I should just make it 3/4-inch the 
      whole way across.
      
      Chris Tracy
      Sacramento, Ca
      Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
      Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:12 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ash supply
      
      
      >
      > Chris,
      >
      > Thanks for the data and your thoughts. I agree - the taper was the culprit 
      > (couldn't possibly be the landing technique!  :)  ).
      >
      > The crack appears to have occurred due to the landing gear/wing strut 
      > fitting rotating around the longeron, with it's horizontal plate pushing 
      > up into the bottom of the fuselage. The edge of the plate neatly aligns 
      > with the taper when the fitting rotates.
      >
      > However, I believe that the plans call for that taper. Regardless, right 
      > now we're contemplating either not tapering, which requires moving the 
      > fitting bolts and associated holes upwards on the side of the fuselage, 
      > further necessitating changes, or adding a steel channel across the 
      > underside, as per Grega plans. Or both.
      >
      > The Grega design, IMO, is better on this point.
      >
      > (Ducks, runs for exit...)
      >
      > Jeff
      >
      > PS: In case you're wondering, the fitting seems to be completely 
      > undamaged, which I find amazing.
      >
      >
      >>...
      >>I believe the Ash pieces in the floor are loaded in tension and 
      >>compression from the wing struts and shear (perpendicular to the grain) 
      >>from the landing gear. The big question is what is the important property 
      >>to look at. Based on the pictures of Jeff*Ts failed Ash cross brace, 
      >>which appears to have failed in shear perpendicular to the grain, I think 
      >>the Blue Ash looks like a good substitute.  That said, probably the 
      >>biggest contributor to the failure was the tapering of the ash piece from 
      >>1-inch to 3/4-inch causing a stress point.
      >>
      >>Chris
      >>
      >>--------
      >>Chris Tracy
      >>WestCoastPiet.com
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
Re: 
Date: 
Oct 01, 2007
      
      No problems.  I had a good long chat with the tech rep from West system. 
       Secrect is to let the West epoxy fully cure for 10 days and sand with 
      220 grit paper lightly by hand, then apply varnish.
      Dick 
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Gordon Bowen 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 12:05 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 
      
      
        Dick,
        Didn't you a problems getting the spar varnish to stick to the epoxy 
      saturated wood?
        Gordon
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Dick Navratil 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:06 PM
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 
      
      
          I built mine that way and compared notes with several others at the 
      time.  Mine was about 2-3 lbs heavier.  I covered my fuse with a 2 oz. 
      layer of fiberglass cloth and used West System Epoxy, then applied Spar 
      varnish over that.  As I recall bare fuselage, fully finished was about 
      65 lbs.
          I would consider going with the wood thikness as on plans and where 
      you are adding wood to the rear, use 1/16" plywood.  Keep th weight donw 
      in the rear.
          Dick N.
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Marc Dumay 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 6:11 PM
            Subject: Pietenpol-List: 
      
      
            Good day Gentleman & Ladies
      
             
      
            My build partner and I, are about to assemble the fuselage on our 
      Air Camper.
      
            Are there any, significant weight and build differences in using 
      an all plywood fuselage stained, instead of cloth, paint etc.? 
      
            Could someone with prior build experience, please elaborate on the 
      pros or cons.
      
            Is there some data available on the finished weight of a plywood 
      fuselage?
      
             
      
            Thank you
      
            Captain Marcus
      
            Chatham. On
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      Jim,
      Does the Woodcraft store have wide planks of ash, say 9"? I need some to  
      carve my prop.  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
From: 
<dknoll(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Corvair Pietenpol in Albuquerque
      
      
      I will be in Albuquerque next week for the balloon festival. If there is a Pietenpol
      with a Wynne Corvair in that area I would love to take a look at it.
      Lynn Knoll
      Wichita
      Piet/Vair
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"James Dallas" <bec176(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
      
      
      Yes,  I just purchased an 8'X8"X1.75 board and it looks great!!
      
      Jim Dallas
      
      
      >From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
      >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ash supply
      >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 05:24:55 EDT
      >
      >Jim,
      >Does the Woodcraft store have wide planks of ash, say 9"? I need some to
      >carve my prop.
      >
      >Dan  Helsper
      >Poplar Grove, IL.
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      
      Hi Dan,
      
      The local Woodcraft store has a couple of 5+ inch planks but none wider right now.
      They do get wood shipments in of several pallets about every two months. I
      can watch for you. I don't know where you are but you can go to their website
      and may have a store very close to you?
      
      Jim
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      Thanks Jim,
      
      I have an inquiry into Baird Bros. Hardwoods now, waiting for a  reply.  I 
      will keep you posted.  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      
      In a message dated 10/2/2007 4:27:05 AM Central Daylight Time, 
      HelsperSew(at)aol.com writes:
      
      Does the Woodcraft store have wide planks of ash, say 9"? I need some to 
      carve my prop. 
      
      Dan,
      I used Birch for my prop.  The booklet called 'Propeller Making for the 
      Amateur', by Eric Clutton, does NOT call out Ash as an acceptable wood for a prop,
      
      and I couldn't find any call out for any Prop Wood in the AC43.13-1A.  Of 
      course this does not mean Ash is not acceptable, it just means it is not very 
      common.
      
      Chuck G.
      NX770CG
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 02, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Ash supply
      
      Jeff,
         
        Have you tried WoodCrafter's? They sell baseball blanks in 4"x4"x40? rough cut
      ash... I believe the length is clsoe therein.
         
        Ken H
        Fargo, ND
      
      Jeff Boatright  wrote:
      
      I am in the market for some, too.
      
      >
      > Has anyone had trouble finding white ash? They tell me the beetles 
      >are destroying it all. Are there any alternatives?
      >
      >Ryan Michals
      >NXxxxCC
      >Clover Clipper
      >
      >*This message sent from a hand-held wireless device.
      
      -- 
      
      _____________________________________________________________
      Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
      Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
      Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
      mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA,CPO,FAAOP
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on
      Yahoo! TV.    
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
Subject: 
Digital Plans
From: 
"Ryan Michals" <aircamperace(at)yahoo.com>
      
      
      Does anyone have a digital set of plans to share? I would like to view them at
      work while on break, etc. I purchased conventional plans from Donald. 
      
      Thank you,
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Digital Plans
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
"Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
      
      Ryan,
      
      What I did is quite simple. I just used a basic digital camera (3
      MegaPixel, I think), and took pictures of each sheet of the plans (plans
      I also purchased from Don Pietenpol), then burned the images onto a CD.
      Now I have a portable set of plans I can view on practically any
      computer. The photo quality is good enough to read all but the tiniest
      details.  I am reluctant to share these images, though, simply because I
      respect the copyright of the Pietenpol family (even if it has legally
      expired).  As long as the Pietenpol family is offering the plans for
      sale, I won't be sharing my photos.
      
      
      Bill C.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Rob Stapleton, Jr." <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: 
Digital Plans
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      
      More than the plans I would vote to see digital images of every detail of
      certain assemblies, like for instance the different tail wheel assemblies,
      or how to connect the elevators together...there are hundreds of different
      ways to do these things, I'm sure we would all agree. The plans look to me
      like just one way, but simple. Let's see how other's intrepret and
      improvise.
      RS
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Michals
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 4:50 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Digital Plans
      
      
      
      Does anyone have a digital set of plans to share? I would like to view them
      at work while on break, etc. I purchased conventional plans from Donald. 
      
      Thank you,
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Digital Plans
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
      Connect the elevators together??? 
      
      Jack Phillips
      Raleigh, NC
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob
      Stapleton, Jr.
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:37 AM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Digital Plans
      
      --> 
      
      More than the plans I would vote to see digital images of every detail
      of certain assemblies, like for instance the different tail wheel
      assemblies, or how to connect the elevators together...there are
      hundreds of different ways to do these things, I'm sure we would all
      agree. The plans look to me like just one way, but simple. Let's see how
      other's intrepret and improvise.
      RS
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Digital Plans
      
      Just go to www.westcoastpiet.com and you can see lots of pics of how people have done things.    
      
      
      More than the plans I would vote to see digital images of every detail of
      certain assemblies, like for instance the different tail wheel assemblies,
      or how to connect the elevators together...there are hundreds of different
      ways to do these things, I'm sure we would all agree. The plans look to me
      like just one way, but simple. Let's see how other's intrepret and
      improvise.
      RS
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Michals
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 4:50 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Digital Plans
      
      
      Does anyone have a digital set of plans to share? I would like to view them
      at work while on break, etc. I purchased conventional plans from Donald. 
      
      Thank you,
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Don't let your dream ride pass you by.    Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
digital plans
      
      To  change  the  plans,  is  to  diminish  the  airplane.
      
      
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
"Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
      
      I have a related question, I have a three foot center section which is going
      to be used for storage with an front hinged aluminum sheet top cover like
      Mike Cuy's. I believe this aluminum sheet cover needs to be supported
      somehow in the center, how about riveting one or two aluminum channels to
      the underside of it running front to back? Opinions?
      
      Thanks
      
      Rick
      
      On 10/1/07, Phillips, Jack  wrote:
      >
      >  Brian, I made my centersection 6" wider than plans (Pietenpol, not Grega)
      > to get a 15 gallon tank in the centersection.  I covered the bottom of the
      > centersection with 1/4" plywood to hold the undercamber.  I made two ribs
      > out of aluminum channel to provide the airfoil shape on top of the tank, and
      > supported the tank with 1" stainless steel straps hanging from the top of
      > the spars.  Worked well
      >
      >
      > Jack Phillips
      > Raleigh, NC
      >
      >  ------------------------------
      > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
      > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Brian Kraut
      > *Sent:* Monday, October 01, 2007 4:10 PM
      > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      >
      >
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Re: Digital Plans
From: 
"Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      
      Well said Walt!
      
      Don Emch
      NX899DE
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137953#137953
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Strange sounds in the air
From: 
"Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      
      I gotta share this one.  Now of course I've encountered lots sights and even smells
      while flying my Piet, but now I can say I actually encountered a sound. 
      Yesterday evening I took a friend up to explore and photograph a very large swamp
      that he and I like to goose and duck hunt in.  On the way back we were just
      buzzing along enjoying the view from about 800 feet when I suddenly heard a
      siren!  Like a dork I turned around to see what was behind me.  Then I noticed
      my friend up front was doing the same thing!  Well then I looked down and straight
      below us about 800 feet was a fire truck with its lights on.  We could not
      believe it.  Through wind noise, mufflerless exhaust, and cruise rpm we actually
      could still hear that thing.  Anybody else ever experience that?
      
      Don Emch
      NX899DE
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137955#137955
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
Subject: 
Strange sounds in the air
      
      
      Yes!  Final at my home airport is above an interstate.  I've also thought my engine
      was burning oil suddenly as I flew over a refinery.  Another time I thought
      my prop was making smoke as if it were working on loose bolts...  It was a
      cabinet shop burning scrap.    Only in a pietenpol!
      
      Steve E
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
      Sent: 10/3/07 6:31 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Strange sounds in the air
      
      
      I gotta share this one.  Now of course I've encountered lots sights and even smells
      while flying my Piet, but now I can say I actually encountered a sound. 
      Yesterday evening I took a friend up to explore and photograph a very large swamp
      that he and I like to goose and duck hunt in.  On the way back we were just
      buzzing along enjoying the view from about 800 feet when I suddenly heard a
      siren!  Like a dork I turned around to see what was behind me.  Then I noticed
      my friend up front was doing the same thing!  Well then I looked down and straight
      below us about 800 feet was a fire truck with its lights on.  We could not
      believe it.  Through wind noise, mufflerless exhaust, and cruise rpm we actually
      could still hear that thing.  Anybody else ever experience that?
      
      Don Emch
      NX899DE
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137955#137955
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      Brian
      Sound prrety much what I did.  Part of my annual inspection has been 
      removal of the tank for cleaning.  I wouldnt bother with trying to curve 
      the top of the tank, I did the calculations and it only adds about 1/2 
      gal.  Its so much easier building a flat top tank.
      Dick N.
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Brian Kraut 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:10 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
        I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since the 
      fuselage is already built and there is no tank in it.  by the shape of 
      the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear 
      inch of tank between the spars.  That means that to get a 15 gallon tank 
      that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as wide as I can get it.
      
        The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank 
      instead of the normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 
      plans show.  I was thinking that I would run some 1/4" square stringers 
      on the bottom sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that it will still 
      hold the correct undercambered shape.  I will also put steel angle 
      brackets mounted to the front and aft spar to support the weight of the 
      tank.  On the top I will do the plywood just in front of the forward 
      spar and in back of the rear spar with a big removable sheet aluminum 
      cover so I can get the tank out if I need to (or maybe just do all the 
      plywood for now and I can cut it out and make the aluminum cover later 
      if the tank ever needs to come out).
      
        Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see any problems with this?  
      The center section will not be as strong as with the four evenly spaced 
      ribs, but I don't know that is really a problem since each corner is 
      braced by the jury struts and attached to the outer wing panels.
      
        Brian Kraut
        Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
        www.engalt.com 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
Strange sounds in the air
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      
      Turned around?  Did you really think you were speeding?  Pulled over for
      going too slow maybe. :)
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Emch
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:29 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Strange sounds in the air
      
      
      I gotta share this one.  Now of course I've encountered lots sights and even
      smells while flying my Piet, but now I can say I actually encountered a
      sound.  Yesterday evening I took a friend up to explore and photograph a
      very large swamp that he and I like to goose and duck hunt in.  On the way
      back we were just buzzing along enjoying the view from about 800 feet when I
      suddenly heard a siren!  Like a dork I turned around to see what was behind
      me.  Then I noticed my friend up front was doing the same thing!  Well then
      I looked down and straight below us about 800 feet was a fire truck with its
      lights on.  We could not believe it.  Through wind noise, mufflerless
      exhaust, and cruise rpm we actually could still hear that thing.  Anybody
      else ever experience that?
      
      Don Emch
      NX899DE
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137955#137955
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      I drew the profiles in Autocad and I get an area of the side profile of 
      the tank of 146 square inches if it is curved on the top and 126 if it 
      is cut flat.  That is a 14% difference which is about 2 gallons.  
      Probably a little harder to make, but I have a friend with slip rollers 
      that can make the curve pretty easy.  I am welding it up out of 5052 and 
      cutting the side sheets should be pretty easy also.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com 
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dick 
      Navratil
        Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:08 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
        Brian
        Sound prrety much what I did.  Part of my annual inspection has been 
      removal of the tank for cleaning.  I wouldnt bother with trying to curve 
      the top of the tank, I did the calculations and it only adds about 1/2 
      gal.  Its so much easier building a flat top tank.
        Dick N.
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Brian Kraut 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:10 PM
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
          I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since 
      the fuselage is already built and there is no tank in it.  by the shape 
      of the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear 
      inch of tank between the spars.  That means that to get a 15 gallon tank 
      that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as wide as I can get it.
      
          The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank 
      instead of the normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 
      plans show.  I was thinking that I would run some 1/4" square stringers 
      on the bottom sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that it will still 
      hold the correct undercambered shape.  I will also put steel angle 
      brackets mounted to the front and aft spar to support the weight of the 
      tank.  On the top I will do the plywood just in front of the forward 
      spar and in back of the rear spar with a big removable sheet aluminum 
      cover so I can get the tank out if I need to (or maybe just do all the 
      plywood for now and I can cut it out and make the aluminum cover later 
      if the tank ever needs to come out).
      
          Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see any problems with 
      this?  The center section will not be as strong as with the four evenly 
      spaced ribs, but I don't know that is really a problem since each corner 
      is braced by the jury struts and attached to the outer wing panels.
      
          Brian Kraut
          Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
          www.engalt.com 
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"DJ Vegh" <dj(at)veghdesign.com>
Subject: 
Re: Strange sounds in the air
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
      
      
      speaking of being pulled over in a Piet...   a few years back after I had 
      finsihed firewall forward of my Corvair install I couldn't resist the 
      temptation to drive it up and down my street a few times minue the wings. 
      (yes, not smart I know)
      
      some old anti-aviation lady called the cops and I was in fact pulled over... 
      lights and all.  Cop said it was the first time he had ever pulled over an 
      airplane.   I told him it was the first time I had been pulled over in an 
      airplane.  we both laughed and he let me go.
      
      DJ
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:33 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Strange sounds in the air
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Turned around?  Did you really think you were speeding?  Pulled over for
      > going too slow maybe. :)
      >
      > Brian Kraut
      > Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      > www.engalt.com
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Emch
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:29 PM
      > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Strange sounds in the air
      >
      >
      > I gotta share this one.  Now of course I've encountered lots sights and 
      > even
      > smells while flying my Piet, but now I can say I actually encountered a
      > sound.  Yesterday evening I took a friend up to explore and photograph a
      > very large swamp that he and I like to goose and duck hunt in.  On the way
      > back we were just buzzing along enjoying the view from about 800 feet when 
      > I
      > suddenly heard a siren!  Like a dork I turned around to see what was 
      > behind
      > me.  Then I noticed my friend up front was doing the same thing!  Well 
      > then
      > I looked down and straight below us about 800 feet was a fire truck with 
      > its
      > lights on.  We could not believe it.  Through wind noise, mufflerless
      > exhaust, and cruise rpm we actually could still hear that thing.  Anybody
      > else ever experience that?
      >
      > Don Emch
      > NX899DE
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137955#137955
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
      
      You know......just a thought here......
         
        When you taxi up to the fuel area and shut the beautiful Pietenpol off, climb
      out and show off the biggest smile in the world, you need to figure out a way
      to pump the gas into your center wing tank. Yes.......lets assume their is a
      ladder handy and you set up ready to fill your award winning plane with fuel.
      Here comes the thought.....what happens to the gas that you might spill when filling
      your tank?..... Cockpit sound about right? what happens when in flight
      some gas get sucked out and dribbles back towards you?....Cockpit sounds about
      right? I guess my concerns are;  the gas coming back on the pilot. Is there a
      way to prevent this? I was interested in creating a center section tank but find
      that my "wide-body" Pietenpol will have plenty of "gas" in the nose and in
      rear cockpit! 
         
        PS. For those other "wide-body" Pietenpols, I think we need to make a nice little
      logo sticker for the words "Wide-body Pietenpol." At least this would offer
      some insights to those of us who wished to be known as plan changers and wide-body
      people...tee-hee-hee...
      
      Brian Kraut  wrote:
                I drew the profiles in Autocad and I get an area of the side profile
      of the tank of 146 square inches if it is curved on the top and 126 if it is cut
      flat.  That is a 14% difference which is about 2 gallons.  Probably a little
      harder to make, but I have a friend with slip rollers that can make the curve
      pretty easy.  I am welding it up out of 5052 and cutting the side sheets should
      be pretty easy also.
         
        Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com 
          -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dick Navratil
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:08 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
        Brian
        Sound prrety much what I did.  Part of my annual inspection has been removal
      of the tank for cleaning.  I wouldnt bother with trying to curve the top of the
      tank, I did the calculations and it only adds about 1/2 gal.  Its so much easier
      building a flat top tank.
        Dick N.
          ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Brian Kraut 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:10 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
        I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since the fuselage
      is already built and there is no tank in it.  by the shape of the wing (GN-1)
      I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear inch of tank between the
      spars.  That means that to get a 15 gallon tank that it needs to be about 24"
      wide which is as wide as I can get it.
         
        The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank instead of the
      normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 plans show.  I was thinking
      that I would run some 1/4" square stringers on the bottom sheet of plywood
      to stiffen it up so that it will still hold the correct undercambered shape.
      I will also put steel angle brackets mounted to the front and aft spar to support
      the weight of the tank.  On the top I will do the plywood just in front
      of the forward spar and in back of the rear spar with a big removable sheet aluminum
      cover so I can get the tank out if I need to (or maybe just do all the
      plywood for now and I can cut it out and make the aluminum cover later if the
      tank ever needs to come out).
         
        Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see any problems with this?  The center
      section will not be as strong as with the four evenly spaced ribs, but I
      don't know that is really a problem since each corner is braced by the jury struts
      and attached to the outer wing panels.
         
        Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com 
           
      
          href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com    
      
          href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com    
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA,CPO,FAAOP
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
      photos & more. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 03, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Strange sounds in the air
      
      Now that is worth saving.....
         
        I never laughed so hard in a long time! 
         
        Thanks DJ
      
      DJ Vegh  wrote:
      
      speaking of being pulled over in a Piet... a few years back after I had 
      finsihed firewall forward of my Corvair install I couldn't resist the 
      temptation to drive it up and down my street a few times minue the wings. 
      (yes, not smart I know)
      
      some old anti-aviation lady called the cops and I was in fact pulled over... 
      lights and all. Cop said it was the first time he had ever pulled over an 
      airplane. I told him it was the first time I had been pulled over in an 
      airplane. we both laughed and he let me go.
      
      DJ
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Brian Kraut" 
      
      
      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:33 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Strange sounds in the air
      
      
      > 
      
      >
      > Turned around? Did you really think you were speeding? Pulled over for
      > going too slow maybe. :)
      >
      > Brian Kraut
      > Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      > www.engalt.com
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Emch
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:29 PM
      > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Strange sounds in the air
      >
      >
      > I gotta share this one. Now of course I've encountered lots sights and 
      > even
      > smells while flying my Piet, but now I can say I actually encountered a
      > sound. Yesterday evening I took a friend up to explore and photograph a
      > very large swamp that he and I like to goose and duck hunt in. On the way
      > back we were just buzzing along enjoying the view from about 800 feet when 
      > I
      > suddenly heard a siren! Like a dork I turned around to see what was 
      > behind
      > me. Then I noticed my friend up front was doing the same thing! Well 
      > then
      > I looked down and straight below us about 800 feet was a fire truck with 
      > its
      > lights on. We could not believe it. Through wind noise, mufflerless
      > exhaust, and cruise rpm we actually could still hear that thing. Anybody
      > else ever experience that?
      >
      > Don Emch
      > NX899DE
      >
      >
      > Read this topic online here:
      >
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137955#137955
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA,CPO,FAAOP
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
      Check out fitting  gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
smells when flying open cockpits
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
From: 
"Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
      
      
      A bit disconcerting to fly open cockpit airplanes as you smell
      everything you do when riding
      a motorcycle.....hay, pig farms, car exhaust over congested areas (like
      around Chicago if you cut
      the corner too close, which I've never done)manure being spread and most
      disturbing
      a factory smoke stack or fire, campfire, garbage fire which makes you
      think you might have an engine fire and I typically
      do some s-turns to look over my shoulder to see if I'm trailing
      unintentional smoke. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right.  If
      you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
      rear seat.  However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
      getting "sucked out".  Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
      carry it away.  I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
      fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
      rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
      
      Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
      with any fuel tank location.  I like the centersection tank, because I
      never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
      levels.  Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
      between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
      compartment.  I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
      there for true "Air Camping".  The bad side of a centersection tank is
      that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
      fuselage tank.
      
      Jack Phillips
      NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
      Raleigh, NC
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide,
      BA, CPO, FAAOP
      Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:11 AM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
      You know......just a thought here......
      
      When you taxi up to the fuel area and shut the beautiful Pietenpol off,
      climb out and show off the biggest smile in the world, you need to
      figure out a way to pump the gas into your center wing tank.
      Yes.......lets assume their is a ladder handy and you set up ready to
      fill your award winning plane with fuel. Here comes the thought.....what
      happens to the gas that you might spill when filling your tank?.....
      Cockpit sound about right? what happens when in flight some gas get
      sucked out and dribbles back towards you?....Cockpit sounds about right?
      I guess my concerns are;  the gas coming back on the pilot. Is there a
      way to prevent this? I was interested in creating a center section tank
      but find that my "wide-body" Pietenpol will have plenty of "gas" in the
      nose and in rear cockpit! 
      
      PS. For those other "wide-body" Pietenpols, I think we need to make a
      nice little logo sticker for the words "Wide-body Pietenpol." At least
      this would offer some insights to those of us who wished to be known as
      plan changers and wide-body people...tee-hee-hee...
      
      Brian Kraut  wrote:
      
      	I drew the profiles in Autocad and I get an area of the side
      profile of the tank of 146 square inches if it is curved on the top and
      126 if it is cut flat.  That is a 14% difference which is about 2
      gallons.  Probably a little harder to make, but I have a friend with
      slip rollers that can make the curve pretty easy.  I am welding it up
      out of 5052 and cutting the side sheets should be pretty easy also.
      	 
      	Brian Kraut
      	Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      	www.engalt.com 
      
      		-----Original Message-----
      		From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dick
      Navratil
      		Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:08 PM
      		To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      		Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      	
      	
      		Brian
      		Sound prrety much what I did.  Part of my annual
      inspection has been removal of the tank for cleaning.  I wouldnt bother
      with trying to curve the top of the tank, I did the calculations and it
      only adds about 1/2 gal.  Its so much easier building a flat top tank.
      		Dick N.
      
      			----- Original Message ----- 
      			From: Brian Kraut
        
      			To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
      			Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:10 PM
      			Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing
      tank
      
      			I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing
      center section since the fuselage is already built and there is no tank
      in it.  by the shape of the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about
      .62 gallons per linear inch of tank between the spars.  That means that
      to get a 15 gallon tank that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as
      wide as I can get it.
      			 
      			The problem is that means only one rib on each
      side of the tank instead of the normal four ribs in the center section
      that the GN-1 plans show.  I was thinking that I would run some 1/4"
      square stringers on the bottom sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that
      it will still hold the correct undercambered shape.  I will also put
      steel angle brackets mounted to the front and aft spar to support the
      weight of the tank.  On the top I will do the plywood just in front of
      the forward spar and in back of the rear spar with a big removable sheet
      aluminum cover so I can get the tank out if I need to (or maybe just do
      all the plywood for now and I can cut it out and make the aluminum cover
      later if the tank ever needs to come out).
      			 
      			Has anyone else done this before?  Anyone see
      any problems with this?  The center section will not be as strong as
      with the four evenly spaced ribs, but I don't know that is really a
      problem since each corner is braced by the jury struts and attached to
      the outer wing panels.
      			 
      			Brian Kraut
      			Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      			www.engalt.com 
      
      
      =========== 
      the many List utilities such as the 
      Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, 
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 
      
      
      great content now also available via the 
      http://forums.matronics.com 
      
      =========== 
      				        
      			
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
      d, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
      rohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
      orsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
      
      Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on  
      a design?
      
      John
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      Birds that are wide body are owls, pengquins, albatrous, goony bird,
      etc.or you could put a picture of a wide body jet up there but that
      might confuse people.By the way penguins don't fly and I don't think the
      goony did either.
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
      Sent: October 4, 2007 9:13 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
      Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas
      on a design?
      
      
      John
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      See what's new a_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
Subject: 
Re: wing stress article chart and illustration
      
      Quite some time ago during my intense research phase I saw an article along  
      with illustrated information on wing stress related to the Piet, I believe? 
      The  article discussed and illustrated all of the wing stress points and stress
      
      values along the wing surfaces at the leading edge. Naturally I was so 
      impressed  by the content I printed out the article for study at a later date and
      
      moved on  to the next research item.
      
      Well as luck may have it, I can not locate the article in any of my  
      materials nor can I locate it on the net. Does anyone recall the article and  
      location? I am trying to get it again. I would appreciate any information on  that
      
      article or similar topic.
      
      Please advise
      
      Thanks
      
      John
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
      
      
      Piet + 6     ?????????
      
      Steve in Maine
      
      >From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
      >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:12:36 EDT
      >
      >Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on
      >a design?
      >
      >John
      >
      >
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      Spiderman 3 Spin to Win! Your chance to win $50,000 & many other great 
      prizes! Play now! http://spiderman3.msn.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
From: 
<bike.mike(at)charter.net>
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
      
      
      Is that "wide bodybuilder" or "wide-body builder"?
      
      ---- AMsafetyC(at)aol.com wrote: 
      > Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on 
      
      > a design?
      >  
      > John
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
From: 
<bike.mike(at)charter.net>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
      
      
      Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty?
      
      It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit
      problem, but would complexify the plumbing.
      
      Mike hardaway
      
      ---- "Phillips wrote: 
      > Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right.  If
      > you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
      > rear seat.  However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
      > getting "sucked out".  Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
      > carry it away.  I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
      > fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
      > rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
      >  
      > Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
      > with any fuel tank location.  I like the centersection tank, because I
      > never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
      > levels.  Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
      > between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
      > compartment.  I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
      > there for true "Air Camping".  The bad side of a centersection tank is
      > that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
      > fuselage tank.
      >  
      > Jack Phillips
      > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
      > Raleigh, NC
      > 
      [snip]
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
      
      
      I had briefly thought of that.  The biggest problem is the drag and anti-drag wires.
      A lot of Pipers are that way and they have tubes welded in the tanks with
      the wires passing through the tubes.  Not worth the trouble in my opinion unless
      you really need the extra fuel capacity.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
      bike.mike(at)charter.net
      Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:10 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
      
      
      Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty?
      
      It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit
      problem, but would complexify the plumbing.
      
      Mike hardaway
      
      ---- "Phillips wrote: 
      > Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right.  If
      > you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
      > rear seat.  However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
      > getting "sucked out".  Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
      > carry it away.  I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
      > fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
      > rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
      >  
      > Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
      > with any fuel tank location.  I like the centersection tank, because I
      > never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
      > levels.  Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
      > between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
      > compartment.  I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
      > there for true "Air Camping".  The bad side of a centersection tank is
      > that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
      > fuselage tank.
      >  
      > Jack Phillips
      > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
      > Raleigh, NC
      > 
      [snip]
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
      
      this is the place that form and function meet! 
      
      John
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
center section wing tank
      
      Having been a lineboy (back in the day, as it were), I would say gas your own airplane,
      and just pay attention when you do it. That will eliminate any gas in
      the cockpit. Put a rag in your pocket to deal with any slight overflow. I would
      gladly carry a rag in my pocket, and just be more careful than re-engineer
      the design to put tanks in the outer wing.
      
      If you can't be bothered to gas your own airplane then you might want to buy a
      172 or low wing Piper.
      
      
      Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty?
      
      It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit
      problem, but would complexify the plumbing.
      
      Mike hardaway
      
      ---- "Phillips wrote: 
      > Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right.  If
      > you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
      > rear seat.  However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
      > getting "sucked out".  Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
      > carry it away.  I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
      > fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
      > rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
      >  
      > Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
      > with any fuel tank location.  I like the centersection tank, because I
      > never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
      > levels.  Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
      > between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
      > compartment.  I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
      > there for true "Air Camping".  The bad side of a centersection tank is
      > that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
      > fuselage tank.
      >  
      > Jack Phillips
      > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
      > Raleigh, NC
      > 
      [snip]
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Don't let your dream ride pass you by.    Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
Subject: 
Re: center section wing tank
      
      Ahhhhhhhh yes the ole rag in the pocket trick! all you need do is clean up  
      on fuel spill and return the rag to you back pocket an interesting lesson will
      
      soon ensue. One I learned the hard way ,as a young, ambitious teenage gas 
      jockey  at my uncles garage and gas station. Certainly a lesson not to be 
      forgotten  easily if at all and certainly not the only one enriched by the high
      test  
      experience of Sunoco custom blended motor fuels of the 1960's.
      
      Hence first encounter with the issues of right to know, skin absorption and  
      related safety issues.
      
      Enjoy the adventure and add to the treasure chest of life experience wealth  !
      
      John
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 04, 2007
Subject: 
Re: smells when flying open cockpits
      
      On the return trip from Brodhead this year, Ben Taylor and I were flying 
      formation to Antique Airfield, low & slow, and we flew over a bakery that filled
      
      the air with the fresh scent that bakery's are known for.  That was the most 
      wonderful smell I've ever whiffed from my open cockpit !!
      
      Chuck G.
      NX770CG
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Date: 
Oct 05, 2007
Subject: 
smells when flying open cockpits
      
      Speaking of smells in the cockpit....
      
      I just sent my brother and my pietenpol to Tucson AZ for the winter.  There
       is a low pressure blowing in from the south and since Utah is north of AZ 
      he was going into the teeth of the wind.  I watched him take off and climb 
      to 100' or so before he passed me.  I raced down the taxiway and realized I
      f I had another mile I could have caught him.   His first fuel stop was abo
      ut 100 miles away.  He called about 3 hours later and reported that his hig
      hest ground speed was 60 mph, and during climbs he was as low as 35 mph!  W
      inds and turbulence were as forecast.  Near the end of the description he a
      sked, have you ever been sick in an airplane?  I responded yes, before I re
      ally understood the implication.  I asked him 'did you get sick?'   He said
       he now has greater appreciation for open cockpit airplanes, but that I hav
      e new decoration down the fuselage side and tail...    He said the hardest 
      part was choosing - over the left shoulder, or the right?   He landed in RI
      T (Richfield) after 2+ hours with winds gusting to 25kts (down the runway) 
      and didn't have time to clean up before flight service was calling him abou
      t his overdue flight plan....
      
      I miss the piet already!
      
      Steve E
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
      t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rcaprd(at)aol.com
      Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:38 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: smells when flying open cockpits
      
      On the return trip from Brodhead this year, Ben Taylor and I were flying fo
      rmation to Antique Airfield, low & slow, and we flew over a bakery that fil
      led the air with the fresh scent that bakery's are known for.  That was the
       most wonderful smell I've ever whiffed from my open cockpit !!
      
      Chuck G.
      NX770CG
      
      
      ________________________________
      See what's new at Make AOL Your Homepage.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Richard and Kathryn Davis" <kbrooks(at)aptalaska.net>
Subject: 
FOR SALE EXCESS  PARTS AND PRINTS
Date: 
Oct 05, 2007
      
      Greetings from Alaska , We are selling all our excess Pietenpol  parts 
      and pieces  and extra plans. We have 1 set wing ribs built from Sitka 
      and aircraft ply T88 glue and nailed  with aileron ribs  probably enough 
      fittings for 1 ship and many others  left over. Also have an extra set 
      of fittings with this for the Aerial Bi Plane conversion. Have 2 sets of 
      BOP plans and one set of Grega plans 2 sets of Aerial Plans close to 50 
      turnbuckle assemblies.  This is to be sold as a unit not separated 
      up.These ribs were built by a very excellent builder as we have rebuilt 
      many planes . Now the extras have to go to make room for the rest of the 
      projects we are building together. Parts will be shipped via the USPS 
      priority mail. For pictures or more info please email us 
      kbrooks(at)aptalaska.net. This is a big jump start to someone who wants to 
      build a Pietenpol.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
anyone near Cincinnati?
Date: 
Oct 06, 2007
      
      Anyone in the Cincinnati area??  I will be there saturday afternoon 
      through Sunday late afternoon and would like to see if anyone is around.
      
      Gene
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      
      Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the 
      world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers 
      and all the cross braces without covering myself with varnish.
      How did all of you who are flying do it?
      Thanks, Jim
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 06, 2007
From: 
<dknoll(at)cox.net>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      
      Try spraying it with a weed/lawn sprayer.
      Lynn Knoll
      Wichita
      Piet/Vair in the works
      
      ---- "jimboyer(at)hughes.net"  wrote: 
      > 
      > Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the 
      > world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers 
      > and all the cross braces without covering myself with varnish.
      > How did all of you who are flying do it?
      > Thanks, Jim
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      --
      Lynn
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com>
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 06, 2007
      
      Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all 
      seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK 
      in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
       -Scott Schreiber
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Catdesigns" <catdesigns(at)comcast.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 06, 2007
      
      Don't know if it's safe or not but the GN-1 plans show 0.090 4130 for 
      the single piece aileron horn used in that design.
      
      Chris Tracy
      Sacramento, Ca
      Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Scott Schreiber 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 8:35 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all 
      seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK 
      in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
         -Scott Schreiber
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      Scott,
      That is one of the few changes I made to my Piet. 
      Replaced them with piano hinges. 
      Also cleared the problem of gap seals.
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Scott Schreiber 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all 
      seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK 
      in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
         -Scott Schreiber
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      
      In a message dated 10/6/2007 10:40:13 PM Central Daylight Time, 
      got22b(at)subarubrat.com writes:
      
      Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all seem 
      to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK in that a 
      AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. However they are 
      pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. Opinions locally seem to
      be 
      that the hole is not a problem. What has been the practice? And lastly for 
      aileron control horns, I have seen allot of photos of single piece horns and that
      
      is allot more appealing to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent 
      thickness of steel for these, or is something thicker in order.
      
       -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      Scott,
      I used the 3" strap hinges, but I don't recall that the hole is across the 
      bend line.  For the Pin, I cut an AN3 screw (that was long enough for the shank
      
      to go all the way through the hinge - no threads allowed in the hole)  to the 
      right length to have a washer under the cotter pin, and drilled the cotter pin
      
      hole.  The plans built control horns are very good design, easy to build, 
      light weight, and Strong.
      _http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html_ (http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html) 
      
      Chuck G.
      NX770CG
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
      
      I have some stainless piano hinge on hand, 1 1/2 inches total width, and 
      it doesn't seem wide enough. Is this what has been used?
      
       -Scott
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: walt evans 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 6:36 AM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        Scott,
        That is one of the few changes I made to my Piet. 
        Replaced them with piano hinges. 
        Also cleared the problem of gap seals.
        Walt Evans
        NX140DL
        "No one ever learned anything by talking"
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Scott Schreiber 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
          Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They 
      all seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are 
      OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
           -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      Scott,
      I think mine was 1",,,here's the only pics I could find at the moment.
      
      PS I flew this morning,,,It was great.
      nothing like a A-65
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Scott Schreiber 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:40 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        I have some stainless piano hinge on hand, 1 1/2 inches total width, 
      and it doesn't seem wide enough. Is this what has been used?
      
         -Scott
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: walt evans 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 6:36 AM
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
          Scott,
          That is one of the few changes I made to my Piet. 
          Replaced them with piano hinges. 
          Also cleared the problem of gap seals.
          Walt Evans
          NX140DL
          "No one ever learned anything by talking"
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Scott Schreiber 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
            Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
            Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They 
      all seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are 
      OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
             -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
      
      My concern with the piano was that the bolts would all be on the inside 
      edge and might limit movement. What sort of fasteners did you piano 
      hinge users choose?
      
       -Scott
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: walt evans 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:28 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        Scott,
        I think mine was 1",,,here's the only pics I could find at the moment.
      
        PS I flew this morning,,,It was great.
        nothing like a A-65
        Walt Evans
        NX140DL
        "No one ever learned anything by talking"
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Scott Schreiber 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:40 PM
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
          I have some stainless piano hinge on hand, 1 1/2 inches total width, 
      and it doesn't seem wide enough. Is this what has been used?
      
           -Scott
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: walt evans 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 6:36 AM
            Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
            Scott,
            That is one of the few changes I made to my Piet. 
            Replaced them with piano hinges. 
            Also cleared the problem of gap seals.
            Walt Evans
            NX140DL
            "No one ever learned anything by talking"
              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: Scott Schreiber 
              To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
              Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
              Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
              Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. 
      They all seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. 
      They are OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right 
      size. However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend 
      line. Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What 
      has been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
               -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      There is article from either a Bingelis book or the EAA Wood Aircraft Construction
      Techniques book which shows a method that may work. If I recall correctly
      you take a paint brush and drill from the handle (where it flares from the handle
      to the brush head) into the base of the bristles. You then insert the end
      of a length of clear flexible tubing into that hole (match the hole and tubing
      size to ensure a tight fit so it does not fall out). Connect the other end to
      a pump handle oil can, or some such device, and use that to pump varnish into
      the base of the paint brush. 
      
      I've not done it, and it may only be an idea to contain the mess of normal varnishing,
      not to allow upside down varnishing and such. Either way, when we get
      home tonight I'll see if I can find it and post better details and where the article
      came from.
      
      Ryan
      
      
      Try spraying it with a weed/lawn sprayer.
      Lynn Knoll
      Wichita
      Piet/Vair in the works
      
      ---- "jimboyer(at)hughes.net"  wrote: 
      > 
      > Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the 
      > world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers 
      > and all the cross braces without covering myself with varnish.
      > How did all of you who are flying do it?
      > Thanks, Jim
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      
      --
      Lynn
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Building a website is a piece of cake. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Chet's Mail" <Chethartley1(at)mchsi.com>
Subject: 
Model A engine
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
      
      Hello every one, I have a couple of questions for the group.
      
      1. What is the normal water temp when flying your Peit's?
      
      2. I have set my timing at 25 degrees BTDC, 18 degrees BTDC and 30 
      degrees BTDC. In the 25 degrees I have trouble with the idle, and the 
      same at 30 degrees. But at 18 it idles OK, not as good as I would like 
      to hear.
      
      At all timing settings the water temp jumps up to 200 degrees on climb 
      out.
      
      I really like the aircraft but this engine is getting me down.
      
      Thank in advance for your help.
      
      Chet, MO where it is still hot.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
      
      
      If you are very lazy, like me, you can buy cans of spar varnish at most any 
      hardware store and spray with a can of beer in the other hand.
      Dick N.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
      Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:03 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the
      > world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers
      > and all the cross braces without covering myself with varnish.
      > How did all of you who are flying do it?
      > Thanks, Jim
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      it was a flat head screw, flush with the insides of both hinges 
      (countersunk holes, so the heads are flush).  With nut plates on the 
      inside.
      You have to decide where you want them, them move where necessary to 
      miss ribs.
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Scott Schreiber 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:55 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        My concern with the piano was that the bolts would all be on the 
      inside edge and might limit movement. What sort of fasteners did you 
      piano hinge users choose?
      
         -Scott
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: walt evans 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:28 PM
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
          Scott,
          I think mine was 1",,,here's the only pics I could find at the 
      moment.
      
          PS I flew this morning,,,It was great.
          nothing like a A-65
          Walt Evans
          NX140DL
          "No one ever learned anything by talking"
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Scott Schreiber 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:40 PM
            Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
            I have some stainless piano hinge on hand, 1 1/2 inches total 
      width, and it doesn't seem wide enough. Is this what has been used?
      
             -Scott
              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: walt evans 
              To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
              Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 6:36 AM
              Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
              Scott,
              That is one of the few changes I made to my Piet. 
              Replaced them with piano hinges. 
              Also cleared the problem of gap seals.
              Walt Evans
              NX140DL
              "No one ever learned anything by talking"
                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: Scott Schreiber 
                To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
                Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
                Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
                Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. 
      They all seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. 
      They are OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right 
      size. However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend 
      line. Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What 
      has been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
                 -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
      
      
      Dick,
      That's not lazy, that's multi-tasking ;o)
      Skip
      
      
      > 
      > If you are very lazy, like me, you can buy cans of spar varnish at most
      any 
      > hardware store and spray with a can of beer in the other hand.
      > Dick N.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      
      Hi Dick,
      I liked Skips answer too. Multi-tasking, I hadn't thought of that.
      Actually my wife helped me this afternoon and now after 6 hours of 
      brushing on spar varnish we have the outside of the fuselage covered 
      with one coat of varnish and multiple (and I mean a ton of) drips on 
      cross braces, etc. We have not yet varnished any of the inside of the 
      two cockpits although I did varnis the plywood over the two pits and 
      the front blank panel.
      It is going to take a lot of sanding and more to get the extra hard 
      drips off but do have to say it is starting to look kinda neat all 
      varnished. Like I am finally making some progress. 
      Have the fitting for the landing gear and now have to make the jig to 
      weld up the landing gear after the fuse is all varnished.
      Cheers, Jim
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 07, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      Here's the piece I was referring to. Hope that helps. Good luck,
      
      Ryan
      
      
      Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the 
      world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers 
      and all the cross braces without covering myself with varnish.
      How did all of you who are flying do it?
      Thanks, Jim
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on
      Yahoo! TV.    
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      Scott, the "barn door hinges" will work, and many Piets are flying with
      them.  Full span piano hinges have the advantage of automatically
      providing a gap seal, and are quite possibly lighter.
      
      As for the control horns, the design shown in the plans is lighter and
      stronger than horns cut from .090" steel.  They are very easy to make,
      and (IMHO) look better than flat pieces of steel.  More streamlined,
      too.  You'd hate to add all the drag of a steel plate control horn to a
      slippery design like a Pietenpol.
      
      Jack Phillips
      NX899JP
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
      Schreiber
      Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
      Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all
      seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK
      in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size.
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line.
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
       -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
      d, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
      rohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
      orsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      Scott,
      The horns are amazingly easy to make, and strong as hell.
      Over 100 hours, and nothing flew off yet
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Scott Schreiber 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all 
      seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK 
      in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
         -Scott Schreiber
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      Aluminum piano hinge will be lighter Scott and not expensive if you don't
      use the extruded stuff like I did (many on this group believe the extruded
      is overkill). Mine is 1" on each side held on with blind nuts. Wouldn't
      recommend using smaller, notice how close the nuts ended up to the beveled
      edge of the aileron spar in the pic.
      
      Rick
      
      On 10/8/07, walt evans  wrote:
      >
      >  Scott,
      > The horns are amazingly easy to make, and strong as hell.
      > Over 100 hours, and nothing flew off yet
      > Walt Evans
      > NX140DL
      > "No one ever learned anything by talking"
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > *From:* Scott Schreiber 
      > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > *Sent:* Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
      > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      >
      > Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all
      > seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK in
      > that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. However they
      > are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. Opinions locally
      > seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has been the practice? And
      > lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen allot of photos of single
      > piece horns and that is allot more appealing to me than the hollow ones. Is
      > .090 a decent thickness of steel for these, or is something thicker in
      > order.
      >
      >  -Scott Schreiber
      >
      > *
      >
      > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      > *
      >
      >
      
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      Rick, I also used the extruded piano hinge and would use the much less
      expensive rolled version if I were to do it over again.  If the rolled
      hinges are strong enough for ailerons on Cherokees and the trim tabs on
      200 mph RV's, they should be able to withstand the blistering speeds of
      a Pietenpol.
      
      Jack Phillips
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
      Holland
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:28 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
      Aluminum piano hinge will be lighter Scott and not expensive if you
      don't use the extruded stuff like I did (many on this group believe the
      extruded is overkill). Mine is 1" on each side held on with blind nuts.
      Wouldn't recommend using smaller, notice how close the nuts ended up to
      the beveled edge of the aileron spar in the pic. 
      
      Rick
      
      
      On 10/8/07, walt evans  wrote: 
      
      	Scott,
      	The horns are amazingly easy to make, and strong as hell.
      	Over 100 hours, and nothing flew off yet
      
      	Walt Evans
      	NX140DL
      	"No one ever learned anything by talking"
      
      	
      		----- Original Message ----- 
      		From: Scott Schreiber <mailto:got22b(at)subarubrat.com>  
      	
      		To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
      		Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
      	
      		Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      		Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap
      hinges. They all seem to come from the same company regardless of
      packaging. They are OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they
      are the right size. However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right
      accros the bend line. Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a
      problem. What has been the practice? And lastly for aileron control
      horns, I have seen allot of photos of single piece horns and that is
      allot more appealing to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent
      thickness of steel for these, or is something thicker in order.
      		 
      		 -Scott Schreiber
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
      d, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
      rohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
      orsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Arden Adamson" <aadamson(at)wnmdag.org>
      
      Rick,
      
      Where did you find the 1" on each side piano hinge?  The inexpensive 
      ones I've seen so far are =BE" only.
      
      Arden
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick 
      Holland
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:28 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
      Aluminum piano hinge will be lighter Scott and not expensive if you 
      don't use the extruded stuff like I did (many on this group believe the 
      extruded is overkill). Mine is 1" on each side held on with blind nuts. 
      Wouldn't recommend using smaller, notice how close the nuts ended up to 
      the beveled edge of the aileron spar in the pic. 
      
      Rick
      
      On 10/8/07, walt evans  wrote:
      
      Scott,
      
      The horns are amazingly easy to make, and strong as hell.
      
      Over 100 hours, and nothing flew off yet
      
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
      
      	----- Original Message ----- 
      
      	From: Scott Schreiber <mailto:got22b(at)subarubrat.com>  
      
      	To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
      
      	Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:35 PM
      
      	Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      	 
      
      	Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all 
      seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK 
      in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. 
      However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. 
      Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has 
      been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen 
      allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing 
      to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for 
      these, or is something thicker in order.
      
      	 
      
      	 -Scott Schreiber
      
      	 
      	 
      	href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"> 
      <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> 
      	http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      	href="http://forums.matronics.com">  
      	http://forums.matronics.com
      	 
      
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges
      
      Arden,
      
      Look in Mcmaster.com. They have everything in hinges.  This is where I  got 
      mine (aluminum extruded).
      
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Arden Adamson" <aadamson(at)wnmdag.org>
      
      Thanks Dan.  That's just what I needed.
      
      Arden
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      HelsperSew(at)aol.com
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:03 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
      Arden,
      
      
      Look in Mcmaster.com. They have everything in hinges.  This is where I
      got mine (aluminum extruded).
      
      
      Dan Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      the
      =========== 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com>
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges (Mcmaster option)
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      1581A18
            Aluminum Piano Hinge Without Holes Alloy 5052, .040" Thick, 2" 
      Open Width, 6' Length 
            In stock
                 
                  Quantity Each 
                  1-9 Each $6.00 
           
      
      
      I found those above, but I they don't say if that is a single leaf, a 
      complete hinge with pin. Nobody has mentioned thickness, this is the 
      widest one I saw listed so probably it is the right thickness. Anyone 
      familiar with this one?
                  
                   -Scott
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Aileron Hinges (Mcmaster option)
      
      Scott,
      
      There is a diagram in the Mcmaster catalog to go along with this. Try  
      looking again.  It looks like a complete hinge to me.  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      Aircraft Spruce sells the MS20257P5 hinge for $13.70 for 6' of the rolled
      hinge.  They have the MS20001P6 extruded hinge for $72.00 for 6'.  McMaster
      has the mil spec extruded hinges (surprised me), but they are much more
      expensive than the Spruce price.  They also have rolled hinges cheap, but I
      would rather spend a few extra bucks for the mil spec rolled ones from
      Spruce instead of the unknown ones from McMaster.
      
      As far as rolled vs extruded, I would certainly go with rolled on the Piet.
      Mark Langford of KR-2S fame did a test on the rolled hinge and a 4" piece
      was able to support 150 pounds.  See his test about a quarter of the way
      down at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/misc.html.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
      HelsperSew(at)aol.com
        Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 11:03 AM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges
      
      
        Arden,
      
        Look in Mcmaster.com. They have everything in hinges.  This is where I got
      mine (aluminum extruded).
      
      
        Dan Helsper
        Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      --
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
Aileron Hinges (Mcmaster option)
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      .051" is the thickness of the ones in the Spruce catalog.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott
      Schreiber
        Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 12:45 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges (Mcmaster option)
      
      
        1581A18
              Aluminum Piano Hinge Without Holes Alloy 5052, .040" Thick, 2" Open
      Width, 6' Length
              In stock
      
                    Quantity Each
                    1-9 Each $6.00
      
      
        I found those above, but I they don't say if that is a single leaf, a
      complete hinge with pin. Nobody has mentioned thickness, this is the widest
      one I saw listed so probably it is the right thickness. Anyone familiar with
      this one?
      
                     -Scott
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com>
Subject: 
Aileron Hinge Wicks
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      Found MS20257-P5 at wicks,  Anodized finished 5050-H34 aluminum hinge, 
      consisting of two half hinges which mate and are held together by a .090 
      diameter hinge pin with hinge spacing =BD". The 2" open width hinge 
      thickness is .050. Hinge pin (.090) is included. Additional pins 
      available MS20253-. Hinge can be cut to save shipping cost. Hinge is 
      sold by the foot. Enter quantity required in foot increments. Full 
      length of 6ft is discounted.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
tailwheel cables
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      
      Being the inquisitive type, I just had to go back and measure the tailwheel
       and rudder cable geometry on NX41CC after that last round of discussion.  
      41CC has separate cables for the tailwheel and rudder, both of them anchor 
      at the same point on the rudder bar.  Back at the tail the rudder horn atta
      ch points are 10-1/4" apart and the tailwheel horn attach points are 8" apa
      rt, which does indeed result in different amounts of deflection of each of 
      them with the same amount of deflection of the rudder bar.  Full deflection
       results in about 2-1/2" fore-and-aft travel of the rudder horn attach poin
      t.
      
      Running the geometry on this in AutoCAD, for the same deflection of the rud
      der bar I find that the tailwheel will deflect just a bit over 8 degrees *m
      ore* than the rudder will, which several of you have made note of.  On gras
      s, I doubt that it would ever be noticed.  On pavement, it might but I have
      n't even thought of it making any noticeable difference.  Just one more thi
      ng to go out and experiment with, because it is very easy for me to change 
      the attach points on the tailwheel horn outboard to just about match the ru
      dder attach points... Corky made the horns extra long for adjustment purpos
      es.
      
      I was at the hangar yesterday to return a trailer that I had borrowed and c
      ouldn't let poor 41CC just sit there and watch, so I went up and did a coup
      le of circuits.  I operated off the grass on all but the last landing and I
      'm finding out that grass is my friend (and my landings' friend).  Just lik
      e there is nothing that a good coat of paint won't cover, there is practica
      lly no landing that a good cushion of grass won't take care of.  So now 41C
      C is proudly wearing grass on the tailwheel parts and around the brakes on 
      the mains.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite a
      t http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: tailwheel cables
      
      Oscar
      
      >From what I understand Chuck and others modified their cable attach points
      on the rudder bar to provide less tailwheel travel not more as yours is
      rigged now. I guess it may not matter if you only fly off grass.
      
      Rick
      
      On 10/8/07, Oscar Zuniga  wrote:
      >
      >  Being the inquisitive type, I just had to go back and measure the
      > tailwheel and rudder cable geometry on NX41CC after that last round of
      > discussion.  41CC has separate cables for the tailwheel and rudder, both of
      > them anchor at the same point on the rudder bar.  Back at the tail the
      > rudder horn attach points are 10-1/4" apart and the tailwheel horn attach
      > points are 8" apart, which does indeed result in different amounts of
      > deflection of each of them with the same amount of deflection of the rudder
      > bar.  Full deflection results in about 2-1/2" fore-and-aft travel of the
      > rudder horn attach point.
      >
      > Running the geometry on this in AutoCAD, for the same deflection of the
      > rudder bar I find that the tailwheel will deflect just a bit over 8 degrees
      > *more* than the rudder will, which several of you have made note of.  On
      > grass, I doubt that it would ever be noticed.  On pavement, it might but I
      > haven't even thought of it making any noticeable difference.  Just one more
      > thing to go out and experiment with, because it is very easy for me to
      > change the attach points on the tailwheel horn outboard to just about match
      > the rudder attach points... Corky made the horns extra long for adjustment
      > purposes.
      >
      > I was at the hangar yesterday to return a trailer that I had borrowed and
      > couldn't let poor 41CC just sit there and watch, so I went up and did a
      > couple of circuits.  I operated off the grass on all but the last landing
      > and I'm finding out that grass is my friend (and my landings' friend).  Just
      > like there is nothing that a good coat of paint won't cover, there is
      > practically no landing that a good cushion of grass won't take care of.  So
      > now 41CC is proudly wearing grass on the tailwheel parts and around the
      > brakes on the mains.
      >
      > Oscar Zuniga
      > San Antonio, TX
      > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      >
      > *
      >
      >
      > *
      >
      >
      
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      That's why varnishing my fuselage seemed to have taken so long, I had a
      brush in one hand and the varnish can in the other. Next time I will put a
      bush in one hand and the beer in the other (and make my kid hold the varnish
      can).
      
      Rick
      
      On 10/7/07, Dick Navratil  wrote:
      >
      > horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      >
      > If you are very lazy, like me, you can buy cans of spar varnish at most
      > any
      > hardware store and spray with a can of beer in the other hand.
      > Dick N.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
      > To: 
      > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:03 PM
      > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      >
      >
      > > 
      > >
      > > Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the
      > > world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers
      > > and all the cross braces without covering myself with varnish.
      > > How did all of you who are flying do it?
      > > Thanks, Jim
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
varnishing
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      Just to clarify my post, spar varnish is available in spray cans at the 
      hardware store.
      I was multi tasking on the computer last night, no, I didn't varnish it.
      Dick N
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      Rick,
         
        Remember....... the fair labor laws for children! Besides, if he get into a union
      and demands more $$ this varnishing thing could cost you Big $$. I say beer
      in one hand, brush in the other and Fido with a platform hat and 1 can of varnish
      strapped tight and several doggie treats....priceless!
         
      
      Rick Holland  wrote:
        That's why varnishing my fuselage seemed to have taken so long, I had a brush
      in one hand and the varnish can in the other. Next time I will put a bush in
      one hand and the beer in the other (and make my kid hold the varnish can). 
      
      Rick
      
      
      If you are very lazy, like me, you can buy cans of spar varnish at most any 
      hardware store and spray with a can of beer in the other hand.
      Dick N.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
      Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:03 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Pietenpol airframe
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Just getting ready to varnish the fuselage and wondering how in the
      > world I am going to get at all the surfaces of the turtledeck stringers 
      
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado 
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV.  Watch previews, get listings, and
      more!
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
varnishing
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      
      hi
      
      Just a cheap......... errrr cost effective guy from Maine.  Checked HD in 
      Boise a week ago and varnish in a spray can was almost $9.00 USD per can.  
      Would think it will take a lot of cans to do the wings.  I know spraying 
      with an "inexpensive " spray gun and a compressor would be a much more 
      satisfying way foir me  to do the job.
      
      Steve in Maine
      
      
      >From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >To: 
      >Subject: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:17:43 -0500
      >
      >Just to clarify my post, spar varnish is available in spray cans at the 
      >hardware store.
      >I was multi tasking on the computer last night, no, I didn't varnish it.
      >Dick N
      
      _________________________________________________________________
      Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop by 
      today! 
      http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHMtagline
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
Re: varnishing
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
      
      
      Steve
      I'm with you on cost cutting, but for those very hard to get at places, it 
      will save lots of time.  I'll double check but I don't think I paid more 
      than $5 per can and only used a couple of cans on those bad places.
      Dick
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:10 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      
      
      > 
      >
      > hi
      >
      > Just a cheap......... errrr cost effective guy from Maine.  Checked HD in 
      > Boise a week ago and varnish in a spray can was almost $9.00 USD per can. 
      > Would think it will take a lot of cans to do the wings.  I know spraying 
      > with an "inexpensive " spray gun and a compressor would be a much more 
      > satisfying way foir me  to do the job.
      >
      > Steve in Maine
      >
      >
      >>From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      >>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >>To: 
      >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:17:43 -0500
      >>
      >>Just to clarify my post, spar varnish is available in spray cans at the 
      >>hardware store.
      >>I was multi tasking on the computer last night, no, I didn't varnish it.
      >>Dick N
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop 
      > by today! 
      > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHMtagline
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 08, 2007
Subject: 
Re: tailwheel cables
      
      
      In a message dated 10/8/2007 1:53:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
      at7000ft(at)gmail.com writes:
      
      Oscar
      
      >From what I understand Chuck and others modified their cable attach points on
      
      the rudder bar to provide less tailwheel travel not more as yours is rigged 
      now. I guess it may not matter if you only fly off grass. 
      
      Rick
      
      That's right, Rick.  One of the many things I learned building and flying 
      Radio Controlled planes, was that you don't need nearly as much deflection on the
      
      tail wheel, as you do for the rudder.  However, R. C. planes may be rigged 
      that way so it doesn't use as much current, or stall the servo.
      Mine is easily adjustable, though, and since my tail wheel is only 3 1/2", I 
      may increase the deflection of the tailwheel.
      
      Chuck G.
      NX770CG
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: 
Wing Drop
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
      
      Hi Guys,
      
      
      I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He commented
      that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the left hand
      wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with aileron on climb
      out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet flies hands off in
      cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small amount of back
      pressure cures that.
      
      
      Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
      Cheers
      
      
      Peter
      
      Wonthaggi Australia
      
      HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
      8:02 AM
      
      
      4:54 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: 
Re: varnishing
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
      
      
      For what it's worth.    I've never used them for varnish, but in the past I 
      have done a  lot of small painting jobs with an aircan and jar that you can 
      buy at most hardware and automotive stores.  The unit comes with an 
      airfilled spray unit and a glass jar that can be refilled as many time as 
      you wish.  The air spray unit lasts a fairly long time (can't remember how 
      many jar fulls).  I once spray painted a 60' sailboat mast with one of these 
      units.  As I remember, they cost about $4.
      If anyone is interested, I can run one down and give you more info.
      Gene in Tennessee
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:47 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Steve
      > I'm with you on cost cutting, but for those very hard to get at places, it 
      > will save lots of time.  I'll double check but I don't think I paid more 
      > than $5 per can and only used a couple of cans on those bad places.
      > Dick
      > ----- Original Message ----- 
      > From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
      > To: 
      > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:10 PM
      > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      >
      >
      >> 
      >>
      >> hi
      >>
      >> Just a cheap......... errrr cost effective guy from Maine.  Checked HD in 
      >> Boise a week ago and varnish in a spray can was almost $9.00 USD per can. 
      >> Would think it will take a lot of cans to do the wings.  I know spraying 
      >> with an "inexpensive " spray gun and a compressor would be a much more 
      >> satisfying way foir me  to do the job.
      >>
      >> Steve in Maine
      >>
      >>
      >>>From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      >>>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >>>To: 
      >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:17:43 -0500
      >>>
      >>>Just to clarify my post, spar varnish is available in spray cans at the 
      >>>hardware store.
      >>>I was multi tasking on the computer last night, no, I didn't varnish it.
      >>>Dick N
      >>
      >> _________________________________________________________________
      >> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop 
      >> by today! 
      >> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHMtagline
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > -- 
      > 269.14.4/1057 - Release Date: 10/8/2007 9:04 AM
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Wing Drop
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      Hi Peter,
      
      What do you have for power?  Does your propeller turn clockwise as
      viewed from the cockpit?  If so, it may just be "P-Factor" that is
      causing the wing drop.  As you raise the nose to lift off, the blade of
      the prop moving downwards (on the right side of the airplane) gets a
      little more lift/thrust than the other side and makes the plane yaw to
      the left slightly.  That yaw to the left can cause the right wing to
      rise slightly.
      
      Are your wings rigged identically?  Any difference in angle of incidence
      can cause a rolling tendencey, but if it flies hands-off in cruise
      without dropping a wing, that is not likely.  Does it fly "Feet-off"?
      It may be that the plane is slightly out of rig and you are
      subconscioulsy correcting it with rudder.  Mind you, most Pietenpols
      don't fly feet off very well - they are just not very stable in yaw,
      particularly if you have the long fuselage version like mine.
      
      Or, if you notice the effect any time you apply up-elevator, it may be
      that your elevators are not rigged evenly.  SInce the elevators are not
      connected to each other on a Pietenpol, a difference in cable tension
      between the right and left elevator cables can cause assymmetrical
      elevator motion.  If the left elevator moves up more than the right one
      when you initiate a climb, it could cause a slight roll to the left.
      The F-16 uses differential stabilators to aid the flaperons in achieving
      the 540 degree per second roll rate on that airplane.
      
      Please keep us posted on what you find.
      
      Good luck!
      
      Jack Phillips
      NX899JP
      Raleigh, NC
      
        _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter W
      Johnson
      Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:32 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
      Hi Guys,
      
      
      I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He
      commented that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the
      left hand wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with
      aileron on climb out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet
      flies hands off in cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small
      amount of back pressure cures that.
      
      
      Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
      Cheers
      
      
      Peter
      
      Wonthaggi Australia
      
      http://www.cpc-world.com  
      
      
      25/09/2007 8:02 AM
      
      
      8/10/2007 4:54 PM
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
      d, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please 
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
      rohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
      orsk - Portuguese
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
New Pictures
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
From: 
"Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
      
      Ryan is right, Chris.
      The mystery plane is N58TL.
      N58TL was built by Bill Emo, and Bill's friend, Tim Mickel built an
      identical plane, N57TL at the same time (over a seven year span, I
      believe).
      Why do I know this?  Because my one and only flight in a Piet was in
      Tim's plane, at Brodhead 2004....and I took the photo.
      The only way I can tell the two planes apart is that Bill's plane has
      the black prop, and Tim's has a polished aluminum prop.
      
      Bill C.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
varnishing
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
      
      
      That would be a Preval.  They are available at most automotive paint stores
      and either Home Depot or Lowes.  I can't remember which one has it and which
      doesn't.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gene &
      Tammy
      Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:42 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      
      
      For what it's worth.    I've never used them for varnish, but in the past I
      have done a  lot of small painting jobs with an aircan and jar that you can
      buy at most hardware and automotive stores.  The unit comes with an
      airfilled spray unit and a glass jar that can be refilled as many time as
      you wish.  The air spray unit lasts a fairly long time (can't remember how
      many jar fulls).  I once spray painted a 60' sailboat mast with one of these
      units.  As I remember, they cost about $4.
      If anyone is interested, I can run one down and give you more info.
      Gene in Tennessee
      
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:47 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      
      
      > 
      >
      > Steve
      > I'm with you on cost cutting, but for those very hard to get at places, it
      > will save lots of time.  I'll double check but I don't think I paid more
      > than $5 per can and only used a couple of cans on those bad places.
      > Dick
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Steve Glass" <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
      > To: 
      > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:10 PM
      > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      >
      >
      >> 
      >>
      >> hi
      >>
      >> Just a cheap......... errrr cost effective guy from Maine.  Checked HD in
      >> Boise a week ago and varnish in a spray can was almost $9.00 USD per can.
      >> Would think it will take a lot of cans to do the wings.  I know spraying
      >> with an "inexpensive " spray gun and a compressor would be a much more
      >> satisfying way foir me  to do the job.
      >>
      >> Steve in Maine
      >>
      >>
      >>>From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
      >>>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      >>>To: 
      >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: varnishing
      >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:17:43 -0500
      >>>
      >>>Just to clarify my post, spar varnish is available in spray cans at the
      >>>hardware store.
      >>>I was multi tasking on the computer last night, no, I didn't varnish it.
      >>>Dick N
      >>
      >> _________________________________________________________________
      >> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop
      >> by today!
      >>
      http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_OctHM
      tagline
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > --
      > 269.14.4/1057 - Release Date: 10/8/2007 9:04 AM
      >
      >
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
Subject: 
Re: varnishing
      
      Wick's also has this PREVAL spray gun now. Item # PRV67, $6.87 ea.  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Re: varnishing
      
      
      After brushing on a first coat of varnish I was thinking of using a 
      HVLP spray rig. That would get in those hard to reach areas by the 
      gussets where braces come together.
      Jim
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: 
Wing Drop
Date: 
Oct 10, 2007
      
      Jack,
      
      
      Thanks for the reply.
      
      
      I have a Corvair on the front so the rotation from the cockpit is counter
      clockwise. That would make the P-Factor the opposite way from a Cont or
      similar.
      
      
      Before I rebuilt my engine the Piet would fly hands and feet off for a while
      but since I have reinstalled the engine it tends to turn right a little. I
      need to realign the engine on its mount again. (The Corvair has larger
      mounting holes than the diameter of the mounting bolts!)
      
      
      When I next fly, I will see if the elevator makes any changes to the roll.
      
      
      Cheers, Ill keep you posted.
      
      
      Peter
      
      Wonthaggi Australia
      
      HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
         _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips,
      Jack
      Sent: Tuesday, 9 October 2007 9:45 PM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
      Hi Peter,
      
      
      What do you have for power?  Does your propeller turn clockwise as viewed
      from the cockpit?  If so, it may just be "P-Factor" that is causing the wing
      drop.  As you raise the nose to lift off, the blade of the prop moving
      downwards (on the right side of the airplane) gets a little more lift/thrust
      than the other side and makes the plane yaw to the left slightly.  That yaw
      to the left can cause the right wing to rise slightly.
      
      
      Are your wings rigged identically?  Any difference in angle of incidence can
      cause a rolling tendencey, but if it flies hands-off in cruise without
      dropping a wing, that is not likely.  Does it fly "Feet-off"?  It may be
      that the plane is slightly out of rig and you are subconscioulsy correcting
      it with rudder.  Mind you, most Pietenpols don't fly feet off very well -
      they are just not very stable in yaw, particularly if you have the long
      fuselage version like mine.
      
      
      Or, if you notice the effect any time you apply up-elevator, it may be that
      your elevators are not rigged evenly.  SInce the elevators are not connected
      to each other on a Pietenpol, a difference in cable tension between the
      right and left elevator cables can cause assymmetrical elevator motion.  If
      the left elevator moves up more than the right one when you initiate a
      climb, it could cause a slight roll to the left.  The F-16 uses differential
      stabilators to aid the flaperons in achieving the 540 degree per second roll
      rate on that airplane.
      
      
      Please keep us posted on what you find.
      
      
      Good luck!
      
      
      Jack Phillips
      
      NX899JP
      
      Raleigh, NC
      
      
         _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter W
      Johnson
      Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:32 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      Hi Guys,
      
      
      I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He commented
      that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the left hand
      wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with aileron on climb
      out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet flies hands off in
      cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small amount of back
      pressure cures that.
      
      
      Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
      Cheers
      
      
      Peter
      
      Wonthaggi Australia
      
      HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
      25/09/2007 8:02 AM
      
      
      8/10/2007 4:54 PM
      
      
      ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      ics.com
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
      privileged, proprietary
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
      notify the sender
      immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is
      prohibited.
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
      Norsk - Portuguese
      
      
      "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.com/
      Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      
      4:54 PM 
      
      4:54 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Wing Drop
      
      Think it's just as simple as you have the stick slightly off center.
      Sounds simple, but with all you are thinking about when you come on with 
      the throttle, you don't realise you have the stick to one side.
      Next time you roll it around on the number and are ready to throttle 
      up,,,,,,,,glance at the ailerons,,and I'll bet they won't be even.  Just 
      a matter of teaching yourself where your hands should be.
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Peter W Johnson 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:31 AM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
        Hi Guys,
      
      
        I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He 
      commented that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the 
      left hand wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with 
      aileron on climb out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet 
      flies hands off in cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small 
      amount of back pressure cures that.
      
      
        Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
        Cheers
      
      
        Peter
      
        Wonthaggi Australia
      
        http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
        25/09/2007 8:02 AM
      
      
        8/10/2007 4:54 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: 
Wing Drop
Date: 
Oct 10, 2007
      
      Walt,
      
      
      Thanks, I hope things are as simple as that. I=92ll take notice next 
      flight.
      
      
      Cheers
      
      
      Peter.
      
      Wonthaggi Australia
      
      HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
         _____  
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt 
      evans
      Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2007 8:21 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
      Think it's just as simple as you have the stick slightly off center.
      
      Sounds simple, but with all you are thinking about when you come on with 
      the
      throttle, you don't realise you have the stick to one side.
      
      Next time you roll it around on the number and are ready to throttle
      up,,,,,,,,glance at the ailerons,,and I'll bet they won't be even.  Just 
      a
      matter of teaching yourself where your hands should be.
      
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      
      From: HYPERLINK "mailto:vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au"Peter W Johnson 
      
      "mailto:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com"pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
      
      Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:31 AM
      
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
      Hi Guys,
      
      
      I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He 
      commented
      that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the left hand
      wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with aileron on 
      climb
      out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet flies hands off in
      cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small amount of back
      pressure cures that.
      
      
      Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
      Cheers
      
      
      Peter
      
      Wonthaggi Australia
      
      HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
      8/10/2007
      4:54 PM 
      
      8/10/2007
      4:54 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Wing Drop
      
      Peter,
      Come to think of it, it might be the same reason that the water spins in 
      the other direction in the sink drain, up here on the top of the world.  
      :^)
      
      I envy you guys, this starts your spring, as we go into fall and 
      winter,,,,Happy flying season!
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Peter W Johnson 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:27 PM
        Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
        Walt,
      
      
        Thanks, I hope things are as simple as that. I=92ll take notice next 
      flight.
      
      
        Cheers
      
      
        Peter.
      
        Wonthaggi Australia
      
        http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
      
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt 
      evans
        Sent: Wednesday, 10 October 2007 8:21 AM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
        Think it's just as simple as you have the stick slightly off center.
      
        Sounds simple, but with all you are thinking about when you come on 
      with the throttle, you don't realise you have the stick to one side.
      
        Next time you roll it around on the number and are ready to throttle 
      up,,,,,,,,glance at the ailerons,,and I'll bet they won't be even.  Just 
      a matter of teaching yourself where your hands should be.
      
        Walt Evans
        NX140DL
        "No one ever learned anything by talking"
      
          ----- Original Message ----- 
      
          From: Peter W Johnson 
      
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
      
          Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:31 AM
      
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
          Hi Guys,
      
      
          I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He 
      commented that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the 
      left hand wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with 
      aileron on climb out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet 
      flies hands off in cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small 
      amount of back pressure cures that.
      
      
          Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
          Cheers
      
      
          Peter
      
          Wonthaggi Australia
      
          http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
       Release Date: 8/10/2007 4:54 PM 
        8/10/2007 4:54 PM
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: 
Re: Wing Drop
Date: 
Oct 09, 2007
      
      Agree with Walt, first few times I flew a stick homebuilt airplane I had 
      the ailerons so uneven due to the position of my paw, damn near flew off 
      the runway as soon as the plane rotated.  Thought I had the rigging 
      wrong or something else was messed up with the tailfeathers, just bad 
      positioning of my arm.
      gordon 
      
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: walt evans 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:21 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
        Think it's just as simple as you have the stick slightly off center.
        Sounds simple, but with all you are thinking about when you come on 
      with the throttle, you don't realise you have the stick to one side.
        Next time you roll it around on the number and are ready to throttle 
      up,,,,,,,,glance at the ailerons,,and I'll bet they won't be even.  Just 
      a matter of teaching yourself where your hands should be.
        Walt Evans
        NX140DL
        "No one ever learned anything by talking"
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Peter W Johnson 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 6:31 AM
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wing Drop
      
      
          Hi Guys,
      
      
          I went for a fly today with one of my hangar mates watching. He 
      commented that every time he has seen the Piet fly (not just today), the 
      left hand wing drops just on lift off. I obviously pick it up with 
      aileron on climb out and have not been conscious of doing it. The Piet 
      flies hands off in cruise with just a little nose down movement. A small 
      amount of back pressure cures that.
      
      
          Any ideas as to what the cause of the wing drop is?
      
      
          Cheers
      
      
          Peter
      
          Wonthaggi Australia
      
          http://www.cpc-world.com
      
      
          25/09/2007 8:02 AM
      
      
          8/10/2007 4:54 PM
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 10, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Seeking a member.......
      
      Members of the list:
         
        I am seeking fellow Pieter "Mr. Dan Wilson" who resides somewhere in Mpls, MN
      I had his telephone number but now is lost....
         
        Your assistance in greatly needed.
         
        Ken Heide
        Fargo, ND
        218-486-1963
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally,  mobile search that gives answers, not web links. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
kmordecai001(at)comcast.net
Subject: 
The Pietenpol is a Chick Magnet!
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
      
      
      Fellow Pieters,
      I had my first "Pietenpol as a Chick Magnet" experience yesterday.  First of all,
      I'm happily married, 44,  have 3 kids and am NOT looking to pick up women,
      but yesterday........
      
      I had taxi'ed to the north end of the field, where there is a BBQ place next door
      with a deck that provides a nice view of the runway.  I'm on the far side of
      the field, about 200' from the deck. Didn't notice anyone out there when I passed
      by.  Stopped to do the runup/mag checks/ etc, and suddenly there's a hand
      on my shoulder and a voice yelling in my ear "Take me up! Take me up!".   Really
      took me by surprise, as I always look around before doing the runup to make
      sure nobody has taxi'ed up behind me.  Pulled the throttle back to idle, and
      tried to explain to the attractive-lady-about-my-age-or-younger that I had 96
      lbs  fuel onboard and we would be over gross weight, not to mention that the
      front cockpit headset was back home in the hanger and a step-stool is needed
      to get in. She replied "We don't have to talk!" "Take me up!".  Once again I tried
      to explain weight & balance to someone with no idea what I was talking about,
      but I did promise to do it some other time with 
       less f
      uel, a headset, preflight briefing, etc.   Never saw this person before in my life.
      
      My biggest fear was my wife, who was shopping, was due back about the time I planned
      to return to the field.  Not sure if she'd believe this story if I was telling
      her after she had seen me helping an attractive lady de-plane from the
      front 'pit with much assistance  :-)
      
      Never had a car that attracted women,  and the old BMW motorcycle is decidely un-cool
      to most, but the Piet is a definite Chick Magnet!
      
      Dave Mordecai
      Panacea, FL
      NX520SF
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 10, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Seeking a member.......
      
      Ken,
      
      This may be a stretch, but it might also be worth a shot.
      
      I found a post in the archives where someone included a quote from Dan Wilson in
      Austin, MN....
      
      A little more poking around on the net reveals that the fire chief in Austin, MN
      is also named Dan Wilson....
      
      There is also a Dan Wilson from Minnesota pictured in a couple of photos from William
      Wynne's past Corvair Colleges, unfortunately no photo on the Austin city
      fire dept page to compare that with probably the same....
      
      Finally, one of the two posts by Dan Wilson in the archive talked about installing
      a natural gas heater in his garage, and how important it was to have a CO
      detector. He even included a link to a National Fire Protection Association article
      on the topic, something that a fireman would be likely to do....
      
      As such, I would say that a short email to his city email address would tell you
      if that's the right gentleman. That address is: dwilson(at)ci.austin.mn.us
      
      Good luck, 
      
       Ryan
      
      
      "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"  wrote: Members of the list:
         
        I am seeking fellow Pieter "Mr. Dan Wilson" who resides somewhere in Mpls, MN
      I had his telephone number but now is lost....
         
        Your assistance in greatly needed.
         
        Ken Heide
        Fargo, ND
        218-486-1963
        that gives answers, not web links.    
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Seeking a member.......
      
      Hmm, don't know why it didn't include the email. 
      
      Anywho, try this one: dwilson(at)ci.austin.mn.us
      
      Good luck,
      
      Ryan
      
      "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"  wrote: Members of the list:
         
        I am seeking fellow Pieter "Mr. Dan Wilson" who resides somewhere in Mpls, MN
      I had his telephone number but now is lost....
         
        Your assistance in greatly needed.
         
        Ken Heide
        Fargo, ND
        218-486-1963
        that gives answers, not web links.    
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
      photos & more. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
From: 
"walt evans" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: 
Re: Seeking a member.......
      
      Did a Yahoo People search, and only one listed in Minniapolis.
      
           5924 Clinton Ave                                              
            Minneapolis, MN 
            (612) 866-1525
      
            Add to Address Book, Map  
      
      Walt Evans
      NX140DL
      "No one ever learned anything by talking"
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP 
        To: Pietenpol 
        Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:34 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Seeking a member.......
      
      
        Members of the list:
      
        I am seeking fellow Pieter "Mr. Dan Wilson" who resides somewhere in 
      Mpls, MN I had his telephone number but now is lost....
      
        Your assistance in greatly needed.
      
        Ken Heide
        Fargo, ND
        218-486-1963
        that gives answers, not web links. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Seeking a member.......
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
From: 
"Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
      
      Ken,
      
      Dan can be reached here, marwilson(at)charter.net.
      
      Jack Textor
      
      Des Moines
      
      www.textors.com
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide,
      BA, CPO, FAAOP
      Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:34 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Seeking a member.......
      
      
      Members of the list:
      
      
      I am seeking fellow Pieter "Mr. Dan Wilson" who resides somewhere in
      Mpls, MN I had his telephone number but now is lost....
      
      
      Your assistance in greatly needed.
      
      
      Ken Heide
      
      Fargo, ND
      
      218-486-1963
      
        that gives answers, not web links. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
      
      
      G'day, low 'n' slow fliers-
      
      I was reading the July issue of BPA Newsletter and there is an item there a
      bout a Corvair-powered Piet that went down in Camden, AL and is for sale as
       a repair project.  Anybody know about this airplane?Oscar ZunigaSan Antoni
      o, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
Subject: 
California here we come
      
      Pieters,
      
      Isabelle and I will be in Monterey Friday thru Tues. If any Pieters there  
      would like to swap lies and show projects I would welcome their invitatons.  Let
      
      me hear from you today as we fly out early Friday to help celebrate  
      Isabelle's brothers 90th birthday
      
      Corky and his bride
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
From: 
"jimboyer(at)hughes.net" <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: 
Re: California here we come
      
      
      Hi Corky and Isabelle,
      
      I'm probably a bit too far out of your way; but if you are intending to go toward
      the wine country I am in Santa Rosa about 50 miles North of San Francisco.
      It would be great to meet you and Isabelle and show you my Piet project.
      
      We will be home all the time you are in California except for Sunday morning.
      
      Cheers, Jim and Arlene
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
From: 
John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Wing strut upper fitting
      
      Piet Group,
         
        Not too long ago, there was discussion on how to make the wing strut upper fitting
      where a piece of flat steel gets wrapped around a piece of tubing.  One
      of the group members shared some nice photos and instruction on how to make this
      part.  I can not find these.  Would someone like to share these again?
         
        Thank you,
         
        John
        Greenville, Wisconsin
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and
      lay it on us.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 11, 2007
      
      
      More about the Piet that I'm trying to get info on.  It is N40WH, constructed by
      William Hencken and registered as powered by A/C-75 Continental but now has
      a Corvair on it.  Or did have, before it went on its nose.
      
      Judging from the small image that came out in the July BPA Newsletter, it has a
      "Der Faker Fokker" paint job with iron crosses on the side and a rounded WWI-style
      rudder.
      
      Any of this ringing a bell with anybody?
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 12, 2007
Subject: 
Arizona Piets (view and brew)
      
      Traveling in to Tucson on Tuesday and out of Phoenix Friday Am any Pieters  
      willing to share a view and brew at one of those locations or parts in  between
      
      Please advise
      
      Thanks
      
      John
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 12, 2007
From: 
"Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Subject: 
Used Lift strut availability
      
      Finding used lift struts for our Piets may get a lot easier soon:
      
      http://www.vintageaircraft.org/news/2007%20-%2010_11%20-%20EAA_VAA%20Submits%20Comments%20to%20Taylorcraft%20Lift%20Strut%20AD.html
      
      -- 
      Rick Holland
      ObjectAge Ltd.
      Castle Rock, Colorado
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when using a Corvair
      engine. Based on most of what I have read, the justification is that the long
      fuselage was developed to meet W&B requirements when using the Corvair/Continentals.
      
      
      What I fail to understand is how having a longer fuselage helps that issue, for
      this reason: lengthening the fuselage increases the moments for any weight that
      is moved aft. Therefore the structure of a long fuselage would have more wood
      farther aft of the datum than not, for lack of better phrasing. In addition,
      having the rear cockpit farther aft will only increase the arm of the pilot's
      weight. I don't see how moving more weight farther aft to compensate for a lighter
      engine up front computes.
      
      I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able to sit in the Last
      Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom, and my wife is shorter
      than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would cramp us. We would then
      be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I would think at my weight (220)
      I would have to take less drastic measures to get a short fuse Corvair Piet to
      balance out than a long fuselage version. Any thoughts? 
      
      Ryan
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
      photos & more. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      Ryan, I'm glad you asked this question. I have been  studying the Pietenpol 
      for a while now, and have wondered the same thing! I look  forward to hearing 
      everyone's responses!
      Boyce
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Question about short fuse with a Corvair
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
      
      Ryan,
      The small Continentals may be lighter than a Model A, but if you put a starter
      and charging system on a Corvair it will be about the same weight as the ford.
      
      I am building the Flying & Glider fuselage which is almost a foot shorter than
      the Corvair fuse and I am going to use the Corvair. I agree that the short fuse
      should be easier to get the CG correct. The tail post of the corvair fuse is
      over 5" further aft of the pilot then the shorter fuselages. 
      
      Skip
      
      
      I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when using a Corvair
      engine. Based on most of what I have read, the justification is that the long
      fuselage was developed to meet W&B requirements when using the Corvair/Continentals.
      
      
      Ryan
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)tds.net>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
      
      The Corvair engine weight about 230 lbs.
       The Continental weighs about 170 lbs.
      To keep the C.G. no further aft then 33% of the chord, you must offset 
      the heavier Corvair with more weight in the the tail.
      My Piet was originally built long to accomodate a Corvair.  Even then 
      added weight was installed way back in the tail.
      Then the Corvair froze up and and was replaced with a Cont. A-65.  When 
      I bought the plane the C.G. was at 39%.  Seriously tail heavy.  Luckily 
      I had Bill Rewey doing the landings and take offs when we flew the plane 
      back to Madison, Wi. from Iowa.
      Since then I corrected the C.G. by installing a 30lb. 12v battery on the 
      firewall.
      The C.G. is the balance point.  All the weight ahead of the C.G. must 
      equal all the weight aft of the C.G.
      The heavier engine in front requires more weight aft. A longer moment 
      aft requires les weight than a short moment aft.
      And lightness is a good thing.
      Heaviness is not a good thing.  The longer the moment, the less weight 
      required.
      
      Roman Bukolt NX20795
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Ryan Mueller 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:06 AM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
        I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when using 
      a Corvair engine. Based on most of what I have read, the justification 
      is that the long fuselage was developed to meet W&B requirements when 
      using the Corvair/Continentals. 
      
        What I fail to understand is how having a longer fuselage helps that 
      issue, for this reason: lengthening the fuselage increases the moments 
      for any weight that is moved aft. Therefore the structure of a long 
      fuselage would have more wood farther aft of the datum than not, for 
      lack of better phrasing. In addition, having the rear cockpit farther 
      aft will only increase the arm of the pilot's weight. I don't see how 
      moving more weight farther aft to compensate for a lighter engine up 
      front computes.
      
        I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able to sit in 
      the Last Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom, and 
      my wife is shorter than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would 
      cramp us. We would then be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I 
      would think at my weight (220) I would have to take less drastic 
      measures to get a short fuse Corvair Piet to balance out than a long 
      fuselage version. Any thoughts? 
      
        Ryan
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      Regarding what you said about offsetting the heaver Corvair with more weight in
      the tail....
      
      A Corvair engine is heavier than a Continental, yes. The long fuse was designed
      with the Corvair in mind, but since the Corvair is approximately 15 to 20 pounds
      lighter than Model A, why the need for the longer fuselage?
      
      As best I can figure, a Corvair with a short fuselage would therefore potentially
      be  tail heavy (since there is a little less weight forward of the CG), which
      would be corrected by lengthening the engine mount (to extend the moment of
      the engine) and/or adjusting the cabane struts.
      If, in order to correct it, you then lengthen the fuselage and put more structure
      aft of the CG, in addition to moving the pilot slightly farther aft, this would
      only exacerbate an already tail heavy condition. Am I confused in my thinking?
      
      Ryan
      
      Roman Bukolt  wrote:       The Corvair engine weight about
      230  lbs.
        The Continental weighs about 170  lbs.
       To keep the C.G. no further aft then 33% of the  chord, you must offset the heavier
      Corvair with more weight in the the  tail.
       My Piet was originally built long to accomodate a  Corvair.  Even then added weight
      was installed way back in the  tail.
       Then the Corvair froze up and and was replaced with  a Cont. A-65.  When I bought
      the plane the C.G. was at 39%.  Seriously  tail heavy.  Luckily I had Bill
      Rewey doing the landings and take offs when  we flew the plane back to Madison,
      Wi. from Iowa.
       Since then I corrected the C.G. by installing a  30lb. 12v battery on the firewall.
       The C.G. is the balance point.  All the weight  ahead of the C.G. must equal all
      the weight aft of the C.G.
       The heavier engine in front requires more weight  aft. A longer moment aft requires
      les weight than a short moment  aft.
       And lightness is a good thing.
       Heaviness is not a good thing.  The longer the  moment, the less weight required.
      
       Roman Bukolt NX20795
          ----- Original Message ----- 
         From:    Ryan    Mueller 
         To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com    
         Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:06    AM
         Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about    short fuse with a Corvair
         
      
      I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when    using a Corvair
      engine. Based on most of what I have read, the justification    is that the
      long fuselage was developed to meet W&B requirements when    using the Corvair/Continentals.
      
      
      What I fail to understand is how    having a longer fuselage helps that issue,
      for this reason: lengthening the    fuselage increases the moments for any weight
      that is moved aft. Therefore the    structure of a long fuselage would have
      more wood farther aft of the datum    than not, for lack of better phrasing.
      In addition, having the rear cockpit    farther aft will only increase the arm
      of the pilot's weight. I don't see how    moving more weight farther aft to
      compensate for a lighter engine up front    computes.
      
      I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able    to sit in the Last
      Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom,    and my wife is
      shorter than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would cramp    us. We would
      then be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I would think    at my
      weight (220) I would have to take less drastic measures to get a short    fuse
      Corvair Piet to balance out than a long fuselage version. Any thoughts?    
      
      Ryan
         
      
        href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  
         
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      Maybe the intentions were multi point. Maybe the  motor mount is lengthened 
      to accommodate the lighter engine. While he was at it,  he says to himself, hey
      
      some of these guys would like a little more leg room, so  why not make the 
      fuselage longer too....
          So, the longer fuselage wasn't necessarily because  of the engine change, 
      but rather a actual revision of the designed features?  Just a guess!
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Max Hegler" <MaxHegler(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
      
      Does anyone have the firewall-to-tailpost length for both fuselages?
      
      Max
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:07 AM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
            Maybe the intentions were multi point. Maybe the motor mount is 
      lengthened to accommodate the lighter engine. While he was at it, he 
      says to himself, hey some of these guys would like a little more leg 
      room, so why not make the fuselage longer too....
            So, the longer fuselage wasn't necessarily because of the engine 
      change, but rather a actual revision of the designed features? Just a 
      guess!
      
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -----
        See what's n 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Max Hegler" <MaxHegler(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
      
      I thought lengthening the fuselage for the lighter engines was to offset 
      the moment arm for control purposes.  Lighter engines required longer 
      engine mounts, thus resulting in longer "noses".  This resulted in less 
      control response with the shorter fuselage.  Airplanes with engines that 
      weigh as much as the Model "A" would not need any added length.
      
      Of course, I'm no aeroplane engineer!
      
      Take Care,
      Max
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Ryan Mueller 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:02 AM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
        Regarding what you said about offsetting the heaver Corvair with more 
      weight in the tail....
      
        A Corvair engine is heavier than a Continental, yes. The long fuse was 
      designed with the Corvair in mind, but since the Corvair is 
      approximately 15 to 20 pounds lighter than Model A, why the need for the 
      longer fuselage?
      
        As best I can figure, a Corvair with a short fuselage would therefore 
      potentially be  tail heavy (since there is a little less weight forward 
      of the CG), which would be corrected by lengthening the engine mount (to 
      extend the moment of the engine) and/or adjusting the cabane struts.
        If, in order to correct it, you then lengthen the fuselage and put 
      more structure aft of the CG, in addition to moving the pilot slightly 
      farther aft, this would only exacerbate an already tail heavy condition. 
      Am I confused in my thinking?
      
        Ryan
      
        Roman Bukolt  wrote:
          The Corvair engine weight about 230 lbs.
           The Continental weighs about 170 lbs.
          To keep the C.G. no further aft then 33% of the chord, you must 
      offset the heavier Corvair with more weight in the the tail.
          My Piet was originally built long to accomodate a Corvair.  Even 
      then added weight was installed way back in the tail.
          Then the Corvair froze up and and was replaced with a Cont. A-65.  
      When I bought the plane the C.G. was at 39%.  Seriously tail heavy.  
      Luckily I had Bill Rewey doing the landings and take offs when we flew 
      the plane back to Madison, Wi. from Iowa.
          Since then I corrected the C.G. by installing a 30lb. 12v battery on 
      the firewall.
          The C.G. is the balance point.  All the weight ahead of the C.G. 
      must equal all the weight aft of the C.G.
          The heavier engine in front requires more weight aft. A longer 
      moment aft requires les weight than a short moment aft.
          And lightness is a good thing.
          Heaviness is not a good thing.  The longer the moment, the less 
      weight required.
      
          Roman Bukolt NX20795
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Ryan Mueller 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:06 AM
            Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
            I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when 
      using a Corvair engine. Based on most of what I have read, the 
      justification is that the long fuselage was developed to meet W&B 
      requirements when using the Corvair/Continentals. 
      
            What I fail to understand is how having a longer fuselage helps 
      that issue, for this reason: lengthening the fuselage increases the 
      moments for any weight that is moved aft. Therefore the structure of a 
      long fuselage would have more wood farther aft of the datum than not, 
      for lack of better phrasing. In addition, having the rear cockpit 
      farther aft will only increase the arm of the pilot's weight. I don't 
      see how moving more weight farther aft to compensate for a lighter 
      engine up front computes.
      
            I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able to sit 
      in the Last Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom, 
      and my wife is shorter than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would 
      cramp us. We would then be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I 
      would think at my weight (220) I would have to take less drastic 
      measures to get a short fuse Corvair Piet to balance out than a long 
      fuselage version. Any thoughts? 
      
            Ryan
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      Max,
      172 and 3/8" for the "long" fuselage, 163" for the "short" fuselage from the Improved
      1933 plans, and 161 and 1/4" for the "shortest" fuselage from the original
      F&G Manual plans. (Short and shortest figures derived from my addition of
      dimensions from the plans, the long fuselage distance is already calculated on
      the plans.)
      
      Ryan
      
      Max Hegler  wrote:       Does anyone have the firewall-to-tailpost
      length for both fuselages?
      
       Max
          ----- Original Message ----- 
         From:    RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com 
         To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com    
         Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:07    AM
         Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Question    about short fuse with a Corvair
         
      
             Maybe the intentions were multi point. Maybe the    motor mount is lengthened
      to accommodate the lighter engine. While he was at    it, he says to himself,
      hey some of these guys would like a little more leg    room, so why not
      make the fuselage longer too....
             So, the longer fuselage wasn't necessarily    because of the engine change,
      but rather a actual revision of the designed    features? Just a guess!
      
      
            
      ---------------------------------
         See what's n 
        href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  
      
         
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      Roman,
      
      I poked around Chris Tracy's site, to see pictures of your airplane (I couldn't
      recall what yours looked like...kinda like putting a face to a name). Looking
      at the rear cockpit shot from Brodhead 2007, I noticed that you have a steel
      tube fuselage.
      
      My conjecture would be that a Corvair powered steel tube fuselage Piet would be
      markedly different when it come to W&B than a wood fuselage. Because the steel
      tube is lighter than the wood, and all of the structure aft of the CG would
      weigh less, it makes sense that it would come out light in the tail.
      
      When you changed engines did you remove the weight that was added in the rear,
      in addition to having to add the battery up front?
      
      Roman Bukolt  wrote:       The Corvair engine weight about
      230  lbs.
        The Continental weighs about 170  lbs.
       To keep the C.G. no further aft then 33% of the  chord, you must offset the heavier
      Corvair with more weight in the the  tail.
       My Piet was originally built long to accomodate a  Corvair.  Even then added weight
      was installed way back in the  tail.
       Then the Corvair froze up and and was replaced with  a Cont. A-65.  When I bought
      the plane the C.G. was at 39%.  Seriously  tail heavy.  Luckily I had Bill
      Rewey doing the landings and take offs when  we flew the plane back to Madison,
      Wi. from Iowa.
       Since then I corrected the C.G. by installing a  30lb. 12v battery on the firewall.
       The C.G. is the balance point.  All the weight  ahead of the C.G. must equal all
      the weight aft of the C.G.
       The heavier engine in front requires more weight  aft. A longer moment aft requires
      les weight than a short moment  aft.
       And lightness is a good thing.
       Heaviness is not a good thing.  The longer the  moment, the less weight required.
      
       Roman Bukolt NX20795
          ----- Original Message ----- 
         From:    Ryan    Mueller 
         To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com    
         Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:06    AM
         Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about    short fuse with a Corvair
         
      
      I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when    using a Corvair
      engine. Based on most of what I have read, the justification    is that the
      long fuselage was developed to meet W&B requirements when    using the Corvair/Continentals.
      
      
      What I fail to understand is how    having a longer fuselage helps that issue,
      for this reason: lengthening the    fuselage increases the moments for any weight
      that is moved aft. Therefore the    structure of a long fuselage would have
      more wood farther aft of the datum    than not, for lack of better phrasing.
      In addition, having the rear cockpit    farther aft will only increase the arm
      of the pilot's weight. I don't see how    moving more weight farther aft to
      compensate for a lighter engine up front    computes.
      
      I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able    to sit in the Last
      Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom,    and my wife is
      shorter than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would cramp    us. We would
      then be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I would think    at my
      weight (220) I would have to take less drastic measures to get a short    fuse
      Corvair Piet to balance out than a long fuselage version. Any thoughts?    
      
      Ryan
         
      
        href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  
         
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
       Check out  the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Roman Bukolt" <conceptmodels(at)tds.net>
Subject: 
Re: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
Date: 
Oct 13, 2007
      
      When I bought the plane, it already had the Continental on it and the 
      builder/previous owner had removed the weight.  Yet it was still tail 
      heavy. A steel tube fuselage is  not lighter than a wood one.  If 
      anything it is heavier.  Before I added the battery, the empty weight 
      with the Cont. was 670 lbs.  Bill Rewey's wood Piet weighs significantly 
      less with the same engine.
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Ryan Mueller 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 12:18 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
        Roman,
      
        I poked around Chris Tracy's site, to see pictures of your airplane (I 
      couldn't recall what yours looked like...kinda like putting a face to a 
      name). Looking at the rear cockpit shot from Brodhead 2007, I noticed 
      that you have a steel tube fuselage.
      
        My conjecture would be that a Corvair powered steel tube fuselage Piet 
      would be markedly different when it come to W&B than a wood fuselage. 
      Because the steel tube is lighter than the wood, and all of the 
      structure aft of the CG would weigh less, it makes sense that it would 
      come out light in the tail.
      
        When you changed engines did you remove the weight that was added in 
      the rear, in addition to having to add the battery up front?
      
        Roman Bukolt  wrote:
          The Corvair engine weight about 230 lbs.
           The Continental weighs about 170 lbs.
          To keep the C.G. no further aft then 33% of the chord, you must 
      offset the heavier Corvair with more weight in the the tail.
          My Piet was originally built long to accomodate a Corvair.  Even 
      then added weight was installed way back in the tail.
          Then the Corvair froze up and and was replaced with a Cont. A-65.  
      When I bought the plane the C.G. was at 39%.  Seriously tail heavy.  
      Luckily I had Bill Rewey doing the landings and take offs when we flew 
      the plane back to Madison, Wi. from Iowa.
          Since then I corrected the C.G. by installing a 30lb. 12v battery on 
      the firewall.
          The C.G. is the balance point.  All the weight ahead of the C.G. 
      must equal all the weight aft of the C.G.
          The heavier engine in front requires more weight aft. A longer 
      moment aft requires les weight than a short moment aft.
          And lightness is a good thing.
          Heaviness is not a good thing.  The longer the moment, the less 
      weight required.
      
          Roman Bukolt NX20795
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Ryan Mueller 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:06 AM
            Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
            I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when 
      using a Corvair engine. Based on most of what I have read, the 
      justification is that the long fuselage was developed to meet W&B 
      requirements when using the Corvair/Continentals. 
      
            What I fail to understand is how having a longer fuselage helps 
      that issue, for this reason: lengthening the fuselage increases the 
      moments for any weight that is moved aft. Therefore the structure of a 
      long fuselage would have more wood farther aft of the datum than not, 
      for lack of better phrasing. In addition, having the rear cockpit 
      farther aft will only increase the arm of the pilot's weight. I don't 
      see how moving more weight farther aft to compensate for a lighter 
      engine up front computes.
      
            I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able to sit 
      in the Last Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom, 
      and my wife is shorter than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would 
      cramp us. We would then be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I 
      would think at my weight (220) I would have to take less drastic 
      measures to get a short fuse Corvair Piet to balance out than a long 
      fuselage version. Any thoughts? 
      
            Ryan
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  
      ">Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
TBYH(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 14, 2007
Subject: 
Off-topic, but worth a view...
      
      This is off-topic, but here's a link to the video that my son made of the 
      Gathering of Mustangs and Legends fly-in at Columbus, OH, a couple weeks ago. 
      Over 100 P-51s on hand plus numerous WW2 pilots and aircrew. Thought you might
      
      find interesting and inspiring -- "Lest We Forget."
      _http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=034d4e11_ 
      (http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=034d4e11) 
      Raining today so guess I'll work on the Piet!
      
      Fred B.
      La Crosse
      
       (http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=034d4e11)  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 14, 2007
From: 
Greg Chapman <greg(at)mousetrax.com>
Subject: 
Re: Off-topic, but worth a view...
      
      
      Thank you very much!
      
      Wanted to go and didn't. Stupid, stupid, stupid!
      
      Greg
      
      TBYH(at)aol.com wrote:
      > This is off-topic, but here's a link to the video that my son made of 
      > the Gathering of Mustangs and Legends fly-in at Columbus, OH, a couple 
      > weeks ago. Over 100 P-51s on hand plus numerous WW2 pilots and aircrew. 
      > Thought you might find interesting and inspiring -- "Lest We Forget."
      > http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=034d4e11
      > Raining today so guess I'll work on the Piet!
      >  
      > Fred B.
      > La Crosse
      >  
      > <http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=034d4e11> 
      > 
      >  
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Max Hegler" <MaxHegler(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Model A plans
Date: 
Oct 14, 2007
      
      Are there plans to convert the Model A engine for aircraft use?  The 
      only thing I have is the plan sheet in the Pietenpol plans.  I have a 
      Model A engine that has been started, ut I would like to finish it and 
      the plans are not that great for a non-engine mechanic.
      
      Thanks,
      Max
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: 
Re: Model A plans
Date: 
Oct 14, 2007
      
      Max
      All I have are the sheets that came with the plans from Don Pietenpol.  
      You have there Piet list here and there are other builders in your area 
      who, I'm sure would like to chat and provide assistance.  I havent run 
      any numbers on Rotec installation with the short fuse.  I was just going 
      from eyeballing the approx cg on both engines.
      Dick
      Dick
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Max Hegler 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:36 PM
        Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
        Are there plans to convert the Model A engine for aircraft use?  The 
      only thing I have is the plan sheet in the Pietenpol plans.  I have a 
      Model A engine that has been started, ut I would like to finish it and 
      the plans are not that great for a non-engine mechanic.
      
        Thanks,
        Max
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Max Hegler" <MaxHegler(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model A plans
Date: 
Oct 14, 2007
      
      Dick,
      I was wondering if there are any conversion plans for the Model A other 
      than the Pietenpol plans set and the builders manual.  I don't have the 
      builders manual, but think I will order it.  The website says it has the 
      Model A conversion instructions.  I just need more than the single sheet 
      that is in the Pietenpol plans.
      I have a Model A that has most of the work done.  I just need to build 
      the Mag tray and drive and a few other items.  I just would like to get 
      the Model A running even if I decide to go with the Rotec.  I just like 
      to tinker...even when I don't know what I'm doing!
      
      Take Care,
      Max
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Dick Navratil 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:30 PM
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
        Max
        All I have are the sheets that came with the plans from Don Pietenpol. 
       You have there Piet list here and there are other builders in your area 
      who, I'm sure would like to chat and provide assistance.  I havent run 
      any numbers on Rotec installation with the short fuse.  I was just going 
      from eyeballing the approx cg on both engines.
        Dick
        Dick
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: Max Hegler 
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
          Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:36 PM
          Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
          Are there plans to convert the Model A engine for aircraft use?  The 
      only thing I have is the plan sheet in the Pietenpol plans.  I have a 
      Model A engine that has been started, ut I would like to finish it and 
      the plans are not that great for a non-engine mechanic.
      
          Thanks,
          Max
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      Well, my friend Mark Langford flew his KR down to Camden, AL on Saturday to survey
      the Piet project that is available down there.  It turns out to be N40WH,
      a Piet with some GN-1 modifications and a "Germanized" set of tail feathers. 
      It also has the Scout-like external bellcranks for the elevator cables, which
      add to the old-timey look.  It originally flew in something like 1993 with a Continental
      75 on it, then somewhere along the way it got a Corvair on the nose.
      It went down when the throttle cable came loose on takeoff and the engine couldn't
      develop full power.
      
      The damage is fairly extensive but not real bad in any one place.  Landing gear
      is damaged (both legs), the tailwheel ripped off along with a section of the
      tailpost and lower longerons, part of the rudder is bashed up, both wingtips and
      one or two ribs inboard from there, one of the wing struts is in two pieces,
      the engine cowlings are complete toast, the engine mount has damage to several
      tubes, the firewall is toast, the fuel tank (wing center section) has damage
      and is leaking, and the list goes on.  The pictures show lots of dried sludge,
      dirt, wasp nests, rust and corrosion, and general neglect from it sitting untouched
      since the accident.  But none of it is serious enough to make me think
      that it is unrepairable.  Much of it is the same as what 41CC had two years
      ago, which has piqued my interest in acquiring this project in hopes of getting
      another sad bunch of dirty and beat-up airplane parts back in the air.
      
      It is one of the few Piets I've ever seen with complete instrumentation in both
      cockpits.  It also has an interesting toe brake setup.
      
      I don't know... I may make Mr. Furman an offer on the project and see if I get
      something to start working on this winter!  In the BPA Newsletter ad he's asking
      $8000 or best offer.  I think the amount he's asking is more than it's worth,
      but there is quite a bit of potential there for somebody who wants the challenge
      of a restoration and repair.  If he takes the offer, sometime in November
      I'll be pulling a trailer down along the Gulf coast and would be happy to stop
      in and say hello to any Pieters along the way either coming or going.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: 
Question about short fuse with a Corvair
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      Perhaps the designer shed some light on why he chose to lengthen the
      fuselage.  Was there anything in writing on the subject by Mr. Pietenpol?
      
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Max Hegler
        Sent: October 13, 2007 11:28 AM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
        I thought lengthening the fuselage for the lighter engines was to offset
      the moment arm for control purposes.  Lighter engines required longer engine
      mounts, thus resulting in longer "noses".  This resulted in less control
      response with the shorter fuselage.  Airplanes with engines that weigh as
      much as the Model "A" would not need any added length.
      
        Of course, I'm no aeroplane engineer!
      
        Take Care,
        Max
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ryan Mueller
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
          Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:02 AM
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
          Regarding what you said about offsetting the heaver Corvair with more
      weight in the tail....
      
          A Corvair engine is heavier than a Continental, yes. The long fuse was
      designed with the Corvair in mind, but since the Corvair is approximately 15
      to 20 pounds lighter than Model A, why the need for the longer fuselage?
      
          As best I can figure, a Corvair with a short fuselage would therefore
      potentially be  tail heavy (since there is a little less weight forward of
      the CG), which would be corrected by lengthening the engine mount (to extend
      the moment of the engine) and/or adjusting the cabane struts.
          If, in order to correct it, you then lengthen the fuselage and put more
      structure aft of the CG, in addition to moving the pilot slightly farther
      aft, this would only exacerbate an already tail heavy condition. Am I
      confused in my thinking?
      
          Ryan
      
          Roman Bukolt  wrote:
            The Corvair engine weight about 230 lbs.
             The Continental weighs about 170 lbs.
            To keep the C.G. no further aft then 33% of the chord, you must offset
      the heavier Corvair with more weight in the the tail.
            My Piet was originally built long to accomodate a Corvair.  Even then
      added weight was installed way back in the tail.
            Then the Corvair froze up and and was replaced with a Cont. A-65.
      When I bought the plane the C.G. was at 39%.  Seriously tail heavy.  Luckily
      I had Bill Rewey doing the landings and take offs when we flew the plane
      back to Madison, Wi. from Iowa.
            Since then I corrected the C.G. by installing a 30lb. 12v battery on
      the firewall.
            The C.G. is the balance point.  All the weight ahead of the C.G. must
      equal all the weight aft of the C.G.
            The heavier engine in front requires more weight aft. A longer moment
      aft requires les weight than a short moment aft.
            And lightness is a good thing.
            Heaviness is not a good thing.  The longer the moment, the less weight
      required.
      
            Roman Bukolt NX20795
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ryan Mueller
              To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
              Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 6:06 AM
              Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question about short fuse with a Corvair
      
      
              I have a question regarding the need for the long fuselage when
      using a Corvair engine. Based on most of what I have read, the justification
      is that the long fuselage was developed to meet W&B requirements when using
      the Corvair/Continentals.
      
              What I fail to understand is how having a longer fuselage helps that
      issue, for this reason: lengthening the fuselage increases the moments for
      any weight that is moved aft. Therefore the structure of a long fuselage
      would have more wood farther aft of the datum than not, for lack of better
      phrasing. In addition, having the rear cockpit farther aft will only
      increase the arm of the pilot's weight. I don't see how moving more weight
      farther aft to compensate for a lighter engine up front computes.
      
              I understand the long fuse has more room inside. I was able to sit
      in the Last Original at Brodhead and had a generous amount of legroom, and
      my wife is shorter than I was, so I don't think the short fuse would cramp
      us. We would then be able to build a lighter aircraft. Finally, I would
      think at my weight (220) I would have to take less drastic measures to get a
      short fuse Corvair Piet to balance out than a long fuselage version. Any
      thoughts?
      
              Ryan
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: 
Model A plans
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      There is a builders manual?   Were from?
      
      As for the model A,  I remember the Funk Model B which had a certified
      conversion of the Ford engine.  Does anyone know it those engines exist
      anywhere and what the mods were?
      
      Bob
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Max Hegler
        Sent: October 14, 2007 11:50 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
        Dick,
        I was wondering if there are any conversion plans for the Model A other
      than the Pietenpol plans set and the builders manual.  I don't have the
      builders manual, but think I will order it.  The website says it has the
      Model A conversion instructions.  I just need more than the single sheet
      that is in the Pietenpol plans.
        I have a Model A that has most of the work done.  I just need to build the
      Mag tray and drive and a few other items.  I just would like to get the
      Model A running even if I decide to go with the Rotec.  I just like to
      tinker...even when I don't know what I'm doing!
      
        Take Care,
        Max
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dick Navratil
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
          Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:30 PM
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
          Max
          All I have are the sheets that came with the plans from Don Pietenpol.
      You have there Piet list here and there are other builders in your area who,
      I'm sure would like to chat and provide assistance.  I havent run any
      numbers on Rotec installation with the short fuse.  I was just going from
      eyeballing the approx cg on both engines.
          Dick
          Dick
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Max Hegler
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
            Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:36 PM
            Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
            Are there plans to convert the Model A engine for aircraft use?  The
      only thing I have is the plan sheet in the Pietenpol plans.  I have a Model
      A engine that has been started, ut I would like to finish it and the plans
      are not that great for a non-engine mechanic.
      
            Thanks,
            Max
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic
      s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
      I don't know, Oscar - sounds like an awful lot of damage to me.  And
      I'll bet the more you get into it, the more damage you'll find.  I had
      to repair the lower longerons after I wiped the tailwheel off mine in my
      forced landing, and that repair was not trivial   Sounds like it is
      close to being totalled to me.   If the engine mount is bent and the
      firewall is "toast", I would really wonder about the front half of the
      fuselage.  The leaking fuel tank will probably have to be replaced.  You
      will have to build a new engine mount, landing gear, fuel tank, cowling.
      firewall, lift struts, etc.  If the lift strut was broken, I would
      certainly suspect the spar it was attached to.  I think I'd rather build
      a whole new airplane and just use this one for a few parts, if you can
      get it for $2,000 or less.  No way I'd pay $8,000 for that.  You'll
      likely have more than $16,000 in it by the time you get it flying, and
      you can build one for less than that.
      
      Jack Phillips
      Raleigh, NC
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
      Zuniga
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:53 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      --> 
      
      
      Well, my friend Mark Langford flew his KR down to Camden, AL on Saturday
      to survey the Piet project that is available down there.  It turns out
      to be N40WH, a Piet with some GN-1 modifications and a "Germanized" set
      of tail feathers.  It also has the Scout-like external bellcranks for
      the elevator cables, which add to the old-timey look.  It originally
      flew in something like 1993 with a Continental 75 on it, then somewhere
      along the way it got a Corvair on the nose.  It went down when the
      throttle cable came loose on takeoff and the engine couldn't develop
      full power.
      
      The damage is fairly extensive but not real bad in any one place.
      Landing gear is damaged (both legs), the tailwheel ripped off along with
      a section of the tailpost and lower longerons, part of the rudder is
      bashed up, both wingtips and one or two ribs inboard from there, one of
      the wing struts is in two pieces, the engine cowlings are complete
      toast, the engine mount has damage to several tubes, the firewall is
      toast, the fuel tank (wing center section) has damage and is leaking,
      and the list goes on.  The pictures show lots of dried sludge, dirt,
      wasp nests, rust and corrosion, and general neglect from it sitting
      untouched since the accident.  But none of it is serious enough to make
      me think that it is unrepairable.  Much of it is the same as what 41CC
      had two years ago, which has piqued my interest in acquiring this
      project in hopes of getting another sad bunch of dirty and beat-up
      airplane parts back in the air.
      
      It is one of the few Piets I've ever seen with complete instrumentation
      in both cockpits.  It also has an interesting toe brake setup.
      
      I don't know... I may make Mr. Furman an offer on the project and see if
      I get something to start working on this winter!  In the BPA Newsletter
      ad he's asking $8000 or best offer.  I think the amount he's asking is
      more than it's worth, but there is quite a bit of potential there for
      somebody who wants the challenge of a restoration and repair.  If he
      takes the offer, sometime in November I'll be pulling a trailer down
      along the Gulf coast and would be happy to stop in and say hello to any
      Pieters along the way either coming or going.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      I agree.  I bought a complete fuselage, centre section, and a full set of
      ribs with spar stock and so forth for $2500.
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips,
      Jack
      Sent: October 15, 2007 11:17 AM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      
      
      I don't know, Oscar - sounds like an awful lot of damage to me.  And
      I'll bet the more you get into it, the more damage you'll find.  I had
      to repair the lower longerons after I wiped the tailwheel off mine in my
      forced landing, and that repair was not trivial   Sounds like it is
      close to being totalled to me.   If the engine mount is bent and the
      firewall is "toast", I would really wonder about the front half of the
      fuselage.  The leaking fuel tank will probably have to be replaced.  You
      will have to build a new engine mount, landing gear, fuel tank, cowling.
      firewall, lift struts, etc.  If the lift strut was broken, I would
      certainly suspect the spar it was attached to.  I think I'd rather build
      a whole new airplane and just use this one for a few parts, if you can
      get it for $2,000 or less.  No way I'd pay $8,000 for that.  You'll
      likely have more than $16,000 in it by the time you get it flying, and
      you can build one for less than that.
      
      Jack Phillips
      Raleigh, NC
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
      Zuniga
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:53 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      --> 
      
      
      Well, my friend Mark Langford flew his KR down to Camden, AL on Saturday
      to survey the Piet project that is available down there.  It turns out
      to be N40WH, a Piet with some GN-1 modifications and a "Germanized" set
      of tail feathers.  It also has the Scout-like external bellcranks for
      the elevator cables, which add to the old-timey look.  It originally
      flew in something like 1993 with a Continental 75 on it, then somewhere
      along the way it got a Corvair on the nose.  It went down when the
      throttle cable came loose on takeoff and the engine couldn't develop
      full power.
      
      The damage is fairly extensive but not real bad in any one place.
      Landing gear is damaged (both legs), the tailwheel ripped off along with
      a section of the tailpost and lower longerons, part of the rudder is
      bashed up, both wingtips and one or two ribs inboard from there, one of
      the wing struts is in two pieces, the engine cowlings are complete
      toast, the engine mount has damage to several tubes, the firewall is
      toast, the fuel tank (wing center section) has damage and is leaking,
      and the list goes on.  The pictures show lots of dried sludge, dirt,
      wasp nests, rust and corrosion, and general neglect from it sitting
      untouched since the accident.  But none of it is serious enough to make
      me think that it is unrepairable.  Much of it is the same as what 41CC
      had two years ago, which has piqued my interest in acquiring this
      project in hopes of getting another sad bunch of dirty and beat-up
      airplane parts back in the air.
      
      It is one of the few Piets I've ever seen with complete instrumentation
      in both cockpits.  It also has an interesting toe brake setup.
      
      I don't know... I may make Mr. Furman an offer on the project and see if
      I get something to start working on this winter!  In the BPA Newsletter
      ad he's asking $8000 or best offer.  I think the amount he's asking is
      more than it's worth, but there is quite a bit of potential there for
      somebody who wants the challenge of a restoration and repair.  If he
      takes the offer, sometime in November I'll be pulling a trailer down
      along the Gulf coast and would be happy to stop in and say hello to any
      Pieters along the way either coming or going.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
      notify the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
      Norsk - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Max Hegler" <MaxHegler(at)msn.com>
Subject: 
Re: Model A plans
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      It is on this page of the Pietenpol family's website:  
      http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/My_Homepage_Files/Page47.html
      
      "Chapter IV Converting Ford Model A Engines For Flight"
      
      Max 
      
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Robert Gow 
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
        Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:28 AM
        Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
        There is a builders manual?   Were from?  
      
        As for the model A,  I remember the Funk Model B which had a certified 
      conversion of the Ford engine.  Does anyone know it those engines exist 
      anywhere and what the mods were?
      
        Bob
          -----Original Message-----
          From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com 
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Max 
      Hegler
          Sent: October 14, 2007 11:50 PM
          To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
          Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
          Dick,
          I was wondering if there are any conversion plans for the Model A 
      other than the Pietenpol plans set and the builders manual.  I don't 
      have the builders manual, but think I will order it.  The website says 
      it has the Model A conversion instructions.  I just need more than the 
      single sheet that is in the Pietenpol plans.
          I have a Model A that has most of the work done.  I just need to 
      build the Mag tray and drive and a few other items.  I just would like 
      to get the Model A running even if I decide to go with the Rotec.  I 
      just like to tinker...even when I don't know what I'm doing!
      
          Take Care,
          Max
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Dick Navratil 
            To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
            Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:30 PM
            Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
            Max
            All I have are the sheets that came with the plans from Don 
      Pietenpol.  You have there Piet list here and there are other builders 
      in your area who, I'm sure would like to chat and provide assistance.  I 
      havent run any numbers on Rotec installation with the short fuse.  I was 
      just going from eyeballing the approx cg on both engines.
            Dick
            Dick
              ----- Original Message ----- 
              From: Max Hegler 
              To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com 
              Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 4:36 PM
              Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
              Are there plans to convert the Model A engine for aircraft use?  
      The only thing I have is the plan sheet in the Pietenpol plans.  I have 
      a Model A engine that has been started, ut I would like to finish it and 
      the plans are not that great for a non-engine mechanic.
      
              Thanks,
              Max
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
      ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: 
Re: Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      I can't think of anything on this plane worth close to $8k.  It would be 
      easier to build the big stuff like fuselage and wings from scratch and reuse 
      the fittings and hardware. There would always be that thought in the back of 
      your mind as you were flying "did I really find EVERY crack?"
      My $ .02 worth
      Barry Davis
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:52 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      >
      >
      > Well, my friend Mark Langford flew his KR down to Camden, AL on Saturday 
      > to survey the Piet project that is available down there.  It turns out to 
      > be N40WH, a Piet with some GN-1 modifications and a "Germanized" set of 
      > tail feathers.  It also has the Scout-like external bellcranks for the 
      > elevator cables, which add to the old-timey look.  It originally flew in 
      > something like 1993 with a Continental 75 on it, then somewhere along the 
      > way it got a Corvair on the nose.  It went down when the throttle cable 
      > came loose on takeoff and the engine couldn't develop full power.
      >
      > The damage is fairly extensive but not real bad in any one place.  Landing 
      > gear is damaged (both legs), the tailwheel ripped off along with a section 
      > of the tailpost and lower longerons, part of the rudder is bashed up, both 
      > wingtips and one or two ribs inboard from there, one of the wing struts is 
      > in two pieces, the engine cowlings are complete toast, the engine mount 
      > has damage to several tubes, the firewall is toast, the fuel tank (wing 
      > center section) has damage and is leaking, and the list goes on.  The 
      > pictures show lots of dried sludge, dirt, wasp nests, rust and corrosion, 
      > and general neglect from it sitting untouched since the accident.  But 
      > none of it is serious enough to make me think that it is unrepairable. 
      > Much of it is the same as what 41CC had two years ago, which has piqued my 
      > interest in acquiring this project in hopes of getting another sad bunch 
      > of dirty and beat-up airplane parts back in the air.
      >
      > It is one of the few Piets I've ever seen with complete instrumentation in 
      > both cockpits.  It also has an interesting toe brake setup.
      >
      > I don't know... I may make Mr. Furman an offer on the project and see if I 
      > get something to start working on this winter!  In the BPA Newsletter ad 
      > he's asking $8000 or best offer.  I think the amount he's asking is more 
      > than it's worth, but there is quite a bit of potential there for somebody 
      > who wants the challenge of a restoration and repair.  If he takes the 
      > offer, sometime in November I'll be pulling a trailer down along the Gulf 
      > coast and would be happy to stop in and say hello to any Pieters along the 
      > way either coming or going.
      >
      > Oscar Zuniga
      > San Antonio, TX
      > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: 
Re: Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      Oscar,
      I'd probably not buy sight unseen, $8K sounds kinda high for a wrecked 
      homebuilt of any type unless the engine alone is worth that amount.  Or 
      wings are off an original Cub or T-craft and are undamaged.  I only paid 
      $4.5K for N-1033B 4 years ago with bidding on E-bay, wings like new off 
      Aeronca.  Could have parted out and got my money back.  But put additional 
      $6K with upgrade to 0-235 engine and now have flying machine.  This rebuild 
      was mostly working with 4130 and then recovering with Stits and replacing 
      engine.  I think you'll have a lot more money in rebuilding this airplane 
      than it gonna be worth if you pay $8K for the wreck.  This Piete is my 
      second project from wrecked, and my rule of thumb is not to pay for a wreck 
      more than I could immediately get out of it by parting out.  You can get 
      fair prices on values of instruments, engine parts, OEM wings, etc. by 
      calling Wentworth or looking in Trade-a-plane.  But it's really hard to put 
      a value on someone else's homebuilt work on the fuselage or wings.
      Gordon
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 5:52 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      >
      >
      > Well, my friend Mark Langford flew his KR down to Camden, AL on Saturday 
      > to survey the Piet project that is available down there.  It turns out to 
      > be N40WH, a Piet with some GN-1 modifications and a "Germanized" set of 
      > tail feathers.  It also has the Scout-like external bellcranks for the 
      > elevator cables, which add to the old-timey look.  It originally flew in 
      > something like 1993 with a Continental 75 on it, then somewhere along the 
      > way it got a Corvair on the nose.  It went down when the throttle cable 
      > came loose on takeoff and the engine couldn't develop full power.
      >
      > The damage is fairly extensive but not real bad in any one place.  Landing 
      > gear is damaged (both legs), the tailwheel ripped off along with a section 
      > of the tailpost and lower longerons, part of the rudder is bashed up, both 
      > wingtips and one or two ribs inboard from there, one of the wing struts is 
      > in two pieces, the engine cowlings are complete toast, the engine mount 
      > has damage to several tubes, the firewall is toast, the fuel tank (wing 
      > center section) has damage and is leaking, and the list goes on.  The 
      > pictures show lots of dried sludge, dirt, wasp nests, rust and corrosion, 
      > and general neglect from it sitting untouched since the accident.  But 
      > none of it is serious enough to make me think that it is unrepairable. 
      > Much of it is the same as what 41CC had two years ago, which has piqued my 
      > interest in acquiring this project in hopes of getting another sad bunch 
      > of dirty and beat-up airplane parts back in the air.
      >
      > It is one of the few Piets I've ever seen with complete instrumentation in 
      > both cockpits.  It also has an interesting toe brake setup.
      >
      > I don't know... I may make Mr. Furman an offer on the project and see if I 
      > get something to start working on this winter!  In the BPA Newsletter ad 
      > he's asking $8000 or best offer.  I think the amount he's asking is more 
      > than it's worth, but there is quite a bit of potential there for somebody 
      > who wants the challenge of a restoration and repair.  If he takes the 
      > offer, sometime in November I'll be pulling a trailer down along the Gulf 
      > coast and would be happy to stop in and say hello to any Pieters along the 
      > way either coming or going.
      >
      > Oscar Zuniga
      > San Antonio, TX
      > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      
      If you really want this aircraft then make the guy an offer of say
      around 2 thousand and see what happens.I wouldn't go much over three
      though.That's probably what the engine is worth.My two cents worth.Up
      here in Canada,that's worth about 3 cents now eh.HAHAHA! 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      Guys, I never said I thought the project was worth $8K.  It isn't.  I will probably
      make the gentleman an offer but it won't be $8K.
      
      Believe me, I would not be going into something like this without eyes wide open,
      but what concerns me is that a substantially worthwhile airframe may go under
      the chainsaw unless someone with the time and interest sees it as having another
      life left in it.
      
      Thanks for all the comments.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      Sometimes a chainsaw is the best tool to use.  But you won't know till you
      see it.
      
      Bob
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar
      Zuniga
      Sent: October 15, 2007 2:29 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      Guys, I never said I thought the project was worth $8K.  It isn't.  I will
      probably make the gentleman an offer but it won't be $8K.
      
      Believe me, I would not be going into something like this without eyes wide
      open, but what concerns me is that a substantially worthwhile airframe may
      go under the chainsaw unless someone with the time and interest sees it as
      having another life left in it.
      
      Thanks for all the comments.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      
      Chances are, it may be, that the chainsaw is where it belongs. The motor
      may not even be worth salvaging. I would take along a good AME if I were
      you. It may cost a few bucks to have him look at it or maybe you know
      one as a friend but it would certainly be worth you life to look at it
      this way.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      "Mark Langford flew his KR"
         
        Oscar,
         
        So tell me about Marks Corvair engine and well it ran....what were your thoughts
      on this engine and it's performance......
         
        Ken  
      
      Gordon Bowen  wrote:
      
      Oscar,
      I'd probably not buy sight unseen, $8K sounds kinda high for a wrecked 
      homebuilt of any type unless the engine alone is worth that amount. Or 
      wings are off an original Cub or T-craft and are undamaged. I only paid 
      $4.5K for N-1033B 4 years ago with bidding on E-bay, wings like new off 
      Aeronca. Could have parted out and got my money back. But put additional 
      $6K with upgrade to 0-235 engine and now have flying machine. This rebuild 
      was mostly working with 4130 and then recovering with Stits and replacing 
      engine. I think you'll have a lot more money in rebuilding this airplane 
      than it gonna be worth if you pay $8K for the wreck. This Piete is my 
      second project from wrecked, and my rule of thumb is not to pay for a wreck 
      more than I could immediately get out of it by parting out. You can get 
      fair prices on values of instruments, engine parts, OEM wings, etc. by 
      calling Wentworth or looking in Trade-a-plane. But it's really hard to put 
      a value on someone else's homebuilt work on the fuselage or wings.
      Gordon
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: "Oscar Zuniga" 
      
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 5:52 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      >
      >
      > Well, my friend Mark Langford flew his KR down to Camden, AL on Saturday 
      > to survey the Piet project that is available down there. It turns out to 
      > be N40WH, a Piet with some GN-1 modifications and a "Germanized" set of 
      > tail feathers. It also has the Scout-like external bellcranks for the 
      > elevator cables, which add to the old-timey look. It originally flew in 
      > something like 1993 with a Continental 75 on it, then somewhere along the 
      > way it got a Corvair on the nose. It went down when the throttle cable 
      > came loose on takeoff and the engine couldn't develop full power.
      >
      > The damage is fairly extensive but not real bad in any one place. Landing 
      > gear is damaged (both legs), the tailwheel ripped off along with a section 
      > of the tailpost and lower longerons, part of the rudder is bashed up, both 
      > wingtips and one or two ribs inboard from there, one of the wing struts is 
      > in two pieces, the engine cowlings are complete toast, the engine mount 
      > has damage to several tubes, the firewall is toast, the fuel tank (wing 
      > center section) has damage and is leaking, and the list goes on. The 
      > pictures show lots of dried sludge, dirt, wasp nests, rust and corrosion, 
      > and general neglect from it sitting untouched since the accident. But 
      > none of it is serious enough to make me think that it is unrepairable. 
      > Much of it is the same as what 41CC had two years ago, which has piqued my 
      > interest in acquiring this project in hopes of getting another sad bunch 
      > of dirty and beat-up airplane parts back in the air.
      >
      > It is one of the few Piets I've ever seen with complete instrumentation in 
      > both cockpits. It also has an interesting toe brake setup.
      >
      > I don't know... I may make Mr. Furman an offer on the project and see if I 
      > get something to start working on this winter! In the BPA Newsletter ad 
      > he's asking $8000 or best offer. I think the amount he's asking is more 
      > than it's worth, but there is quite a bit of potential there for somebody 
      > who wants the challenge of a restoration and repair. If he takes the 
      > offer, sometime in November I'll be pulling a trailer down along the Gulf 
      > coast and would be happy to stop in and say hello to any Pieters along the 
      > way either coming or going.
      >
      > Oscar Zuniga
      > San Antonio, TX
      > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
From: 
"Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
      
      
      I would only buy this project if it had a nice color scheme and wheel
      pants. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      Based on the condition it sounds like it is in, it would be a substantially worthwhile
      project only if there was some historical significance to it; i.e. your
      father's Piet, or a pre-war Piet, so on and so forth.
      
      Could you restore it? Sure. You throw enough money at anything and you can restore
      it. But based on the effort and cost to build a new aircraft, versus the time
      and effort to I would assume it would take to rebuild that one, it sounds
      like it would not take very long to hit the point of diminishing returns.
      
      Either way, good luck in your decision.
      
      Ryan
      
      
      Guys, I never said I thought the project was worth $8K.  It isn't.  I will probably
      make the gentleman an offer but it won't be $8K.
      
      Believe me, I would not be going into something like this without eyes wide open,
      but what concerns me is that a substantially worthwhile airframe may go under
      the chainsaw unless someone with the time and interest sees it as having another
      life left in it.
      
      Thanks for all the comments.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
       Check out  the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Gordon Bowen" <gbowen(at)ptialaska.net>
Subject: 
Re: Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      Harvey,
      That 0.03CN is cruel, I gotta drive out of Alaska thru 3000 miles of lovely 
      O'Canada this winter and really not looking forward to seeing the diesel 
      fuel costs along the Alcan, probably +$7.00CN/gal in Watson Lake.
      Gordon
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:35 AM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      >
      > If you really want this aircraft then make the guy an offer of say
      > around 2 thousand and see what happens.I wouldn't go much over three
      > though.That's probably what the engine is worth.My two cents worth.Up
      > here in Canada,that's worth about 3 cents now eh.HAHAHA!
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      The Corvair on Mark Langford's KR is probably one of the most engineered and detailed
      ones on the planet.  Mark has developed some of the ideas and techniques
      that are now incorporated into William Wynne's conversion parts and Mark has
      heavily test-flown and proven his parts and techniques.  His engine is instrumented
      to the nth degree and he takes his laptop along on every flight, logging
      all pertinent data including EGT, CHTs, intake temp, cowling temp, ambient temp,
      fuel flow, and of course the airplane performance data, altitude, speed,
      and all the rest of it.  Going down to Alabama his KR logged excellent fuel economy
      and performance both in "economy cruise" and "max cruise" configurations.
      The Corvair is an honest 100 HP engine in most good conversions; probably somewhat
      less in the original Bernard Pietenpol conversion with standard auto parts
      and the top blower for cooling, but plenty of power for the Piet.  Just ask
      Hans!  ;o)  The Corvair on N40WH is a good one as they go, but it would still
      need a complete tear-down for inspection and to remove the crankshaft to have
      it nitrided.  When this one was converted, the nitriding issue had not come
      to light and a few cranks have broken as a result.
      
      And Mike Cuy wrote-
      
      >I would only buy this project if it had a nice color scheme and wheel pants.
      
      In fact, it has neither.  I don't like the (yellow) paint scheme on it.  You know,
      some people look at the glass as half-empty; I see it as half-full.  And I
      am also partial to stray dogs, some of which make far better and more loyal companions
      than pure-bred dogs ;o) 
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Retraction
From: 
"Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: 
Oct 15, 2007
      
      
      A few months ago I questioned the value of the EAA, particularly my local chapter
      citing their lack of interest in anything other than RVs and other metal or
      fiberglass planes.  
      
      Today I got a rather suprising call from one of the chapter members that I met
      a year ago, only one time, who knew of some spruce that someone had and no longer
      wanted.  He saw the wood while picking through the other stuff this aging
      retired glider builder was about to throw out and thought of me and my Pietenpol
      project, and then looked me up in the chapter directory and called me about
      it.  It turns out that this gentleman has 3 rough-cut 2" x 6" x 14' pieces of
      sitka spruce that he is giving away.  I'm not as excited that I am getting a
      ton of free spruce as I am that someone in the chapter actually thought of my
      project and went out of their way to see that I was notified of it.  Shame on
      me for judging the whole chapter on the comments of a few.  My attendance has
      been so poor since I gave up on them that I can't even remember what the nice
      guy that called me looks like.    ...but I will make a point of going to future
      chapter meetings and thanking him personally.
      
      I now see the value in local chapters and feel that my previous negative comments
      were premature.  I may find that wood is unusable (but I hear it is quite nice).
      Although the majority of the chapter couldn't care less about an old wooden
      plane, this act of kindness/generosity, not to mention interest in Pietenpols,
      has caused me to reflect on the good fortune of now having a total of 5
      people to date who have become great resources, mentors and friends.  In mathematical
      terms.. 4 > 0 and there is great value in having even 1 local resource
      to help you through this process.  This has been afforded to me through my EAA
      membership.  I just felt that having made negative comments in the past I needed
      to add something at this point to be fair.
      
      Eating crow,
      
      --------
      Glenn Thomas
      N?????
      http://www.flyingwood.com
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140178#140178
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      
      Sorry to hurt you that way but we have been paying ridiculous prices for
      gas up here long before we got to par and things don't look like they
      will change either. Everything else is still double the price for
      Canadian commodities and that's why there is a run on US cities close to
      our borders. People are fed up paying the prices. 
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon
      Bowen
      Sent: October 15, 2007 4:38 PM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      
      Harvey,
      That 0.03CN is cruel, I gotta drive out of Alaska thru 3000 miles of
      lovely 
      O'Canada this winter and really not looking forward to seeing the diesel
      
      fuel costs along the Alcan, probably +$7.00CN/gal in Watson Lake.
      Gordon
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: <harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 9:35 AM
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet in Camden, AL
      
      
      >
      > If you really want this aircraft then make the guy an offer of say
      > around 2 thousand and see what happens.I wouldn't go much over three
      > though.That's probably what the engine is worth.My two cents worth.Up
      > here in Canada,that's worth about 3 cents now eh.HAHAHA!
      >
      >
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Piet in Camden, AL
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
       Glass half empty, glass half full...  I'm an engineer and I see that
      the glass is twice as big as it needs to be
      
      Jack Phillips
      NX899JP
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
      Zuniga
      
      And Mike Cuy wrote-
      
      >I would only buy this project if it had a nice color scheme and wheel
      pants.
      
      In fact, it has neither.  I don't like the (yellow) paint scheme on it.
      You know, some people look at the glass as half-empty; I see it as
      half-full.  And I am also partial to stray dogs, some of which make far
      better and more loyal companions than pure-bred dogs ;o) 
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Retraction
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
      Some good comments, Glenn.
      
      Nearly every chapter of the EAA has some good in it.  Sometimes it is
      well hidden, but it is there. Likewise, the national organization is
      also doing some good, but it is hard to see it in a purely homebuilding
      light.  As some have pointed out before, the EAA woke up in the early
      1990's and realized that their membership, and pilots in general, were
      getting old.  There are any numbers of reasons for it, but they decided
      to do something about it and created the Young Eagles program.  They
      decided flying was too expensive and supported the LSA initiative (not
      that it has made things any cheaper).  Because if flying goes away for
      all but airlines and corporate jets, experimental airplanes will quickly
      become outlaws.  So even though they are not actively promoting
      homebuilding, they are helping it.
      
      Anyway, look for the good and you will find it.  For all its faults, EAA
      is still the organization that most closely represents me and my
      aviation interests.  I support AOPA for their lobby efforts, and EAA for
      everything else.  Haven't gotten much useful out of their magazine
      lately, though.
      
      Jack Phillips
      Raleigh, NC
      Wishing an RV-10 was as much fun to build as a Pietenpol
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
      Thomas
      Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 8:25 PM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Retraction
      
      --> 
      
      A few months ago I questioned the value of the EAA, particularly my
      local chapter citing their lack of interest in anything other than RVs
      and other metal or fiberglass planes.  
      
      Today I got a rather suprising call from one of the chapter members that
      I met a year ago, only one time, who knew of some spruce that someone
      had and no longer wanted.  He saw the wood while picking through the
      other stuff this aging retired glider builder was about to throw out and
      thought of me and my Pietenpol project, and then looked me up in the
      chapter directory and called me about it.  It turns out that this
      gentleman has 3 rough-cut 2" x 6" x 14' pieces of sitka spruce that he
      is giving away.  I'm not as excited that I am getting a ton of free
      spruce as I am that someone in the chapter actually thought of my
      project and went out of their way to see that I was notified of it.
      Shame on me for judging the whole chapter on the comments of a few.  My
      attendance has been so poor since I gave up on them that I can't even
      remember what the nice guy that called me looks like.    ...but I will
      make a point of going to future chapter meetings and thanking him
      personally.
      
      I now see the value in local chapters and feel that my previous negative
      comments were premature.  I may find that wood is unusable (but I hear
      it is quite nice).  Although the majority of the chapter couldn't care
      less about an old wooden plane, this act of kindness/generosity, not to
      mention interest in Pietenpols, has caused me to reflect on the good
      fortune of now having a total of 5 people to date who have become great
      resources, mentors and friends.  In mathematical terms.. 4 > 0 and there
      is great value in having even 1 local resource to help you through this
      process.  This has been afforded to me through my EAA membership.  I
      just felt that having made negative comments in the past I needed to add
      something at this point to be fair.
      
      Eating crow,
      
      --------
      Glenn Thomas
      N?????
      http://www.flyingwood.com
      
      
      Read this topic online here:
      
      http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140178#140178
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      Guys,
      
      I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that we ALL should, as a matter of  
      pragmatism, join either EAA or AOPA simply for the lobbying efforts in  
      Washington.  Those politicians (bastards) would take our flying privileges  away
      in a 
      heartbeat if it meant scoring some kind of political points somewhere.  They 
      would shut us down completely in the name of "safety" so fast it would make  
      all of our collective heads spin. I recently went on a tour of Europe and  Asia,
      
      and NEVER saw one single small plane flying in any of the countries I  
      visited.  Very eerie feeling around there with the absence of private  aviation,
      
      especially for me being used to living at the Poplar Grove Airport  (C77).  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Retraction, EAA and AOPA
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      We should all appreciate our collective freedom and the poor buggers
      that are out there with their ass on the line for us!I think of these
      people every time I get into my car or my plane.To a few is owed much.
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      HelsperSew(at)aol.com
      Sent: October 16, 2007 11:15 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      
      Guys,
      
      
      I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that we ALL should, as a matter
      of pragmatism, join either EAA or AOPA simply for the lobbying efforts
      in Washington.  Those politicians (bastards) would take our flying
      privileges away in a heartbeat if it meant scoring some kind of
      political points somewhere. They would shut us down completely in the
      name of "safety" so fast it would make all of our collective heads spin.
      I recently went on a tour of Europe and Asia, and NEVER saw one single
      small plane flying in any of the countries I visited.  Very eerie
      feeling around there with the absence of private aviation, especially
      for me being used to living at the Poplar Grove Airport (C77). 
      
      
      Dan Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      the
      =========== 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      
      As a general rule I don't believe in conspiracies. I do believe that we (general
      aviation) are subject to attack due to misperceptions. Yes, it is true that
      poor people cannot afford to fly. This is extrapolated to say that only the rich
      fly. 
      Obviously not true to those in aviation. Almost everyone I know in aviation is
      middle class. Instead of having a Bass boat, RV motorcoach, vacation house, Big
      SUV, New cars, or Big house they decide to own an airplane. We do a lot of work
      on our old airplanes and often own planes in groups in order to lower our
      costs. 
      However, the public perception that "only the rich fly" Makes us an easy target
      for political gain. If they are rich then it will be OK to tax/regulate them.
      And if they can't afford to do it then so what if a rich guy can't fly, serves
      him right. Besides this improves our security right?   
      I have seen at least 3 instances where people were using security against terrorism
      as an excuse to stop someone from doing innocent personal flying. I don't
      like them flying over my house on a weekend while I am BBQing. Not really a conspiricy
      but we are easy targets and noone wants to defend us unless prodded.
      
      
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
      Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:37
      Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      > We should all appreciate our collective freedom and the poor buggers
      > that are out there with their ass on the line for us!I think of these
      > people every time I get into my car or my plane.To a few is owed much.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > ________________________________
      > 
      > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
      > HelsperSew(at)aol.com
      > Sent: October 16, 2007 11:15 AM
      > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
      > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Guys,
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that we ALL should, as a matter
      > of pragmatism, join either EAA or AOPA simply for the lobbying efforts
      > in Washington.  Those politicians (bastards) would take our flying
      > privileges away in a heartbeat if it meant scoring some kind of
      > political points somewhere. They would shut us down completely in the
      > name of "safety" so fast it would make all of our collective heads 
      > spin.I recently went on a tour of Europe and Asia, and NEVER saw 
      > one single
      > small plane flying in any of the countries I visited.  Very eerie
      > feeling around there with the absence of private aviation, especially
      > for me being used to living at the Poplar Grove Airport (C77). 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Dan Helsper
      > Poplar Grove, IL.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > ________________________________
      > 
      > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
      > the
      > =========== 
      > 
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      Yea, and the one that takes the cake of them all, is Mayor Daley plowing up  
      Meigs field in the middle of the night, because it "could be a launching pad" 
      
      for those pesky little terrorist planes filled with TNT that would plow into 
      all  the downtown buildings.  I guess the terrorists would be too stupid to  
      figure out that they could easily make it to Chicago taking off from one of the
      
       many other surrounding airports. In addition, he is still lobbying FAA to 
      create  one of those idiotic "no fly zones" like they have over Disney World. 
      I 
       wonder how much $ was slipped into reelection campaign funds in order to get 
       that one through!  Follow the money!  
      
      Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      My wife and I have been living in Chicago for about 10 months now (looking to leave
      ASAP), and it fills me with rancour any time I ride along the lakefront bike
      path south of Navy Pier. I was fortunate enough to make it down to the city
      about a month after he plowed it up to pay my last respects. 
      
      I was never a Daley fan before that; "despise" would be a polite term for what
      I feel about him now. I like Chicago, as big cities go, but the city government
      is absolutely pathetic, with the Mayor leading them all.
      
      In order to provide something topical to this post: how's about this question.
      When you have a fuselage fuel tank only, how noticeable are the changes in control
      pressure as you burn fuel off? Minor annoyance, or something one might want
      to consider installing a simple elevator trim setup for to reduce the level
      of annoyance?
      
      Ryan
      
      HelsperSew(at)aol.com wrote:     Yea, and the one that takes the cake of them all,
      is Mayor Daley plowing up  Meigs field in the middle of the night, because it
      "could be a launching pad"  for those pesky little terrorist planes filled with
      TNT that would plow into all  the downtown buildings.  I guess the terrorists
      would be too stupid to  figure out that they could easily make it to Chicago
      taking off from one of the  many other surrounding airports. In addition, he
      is still lobbying FAA to create  one of those idiotic "no fly zones" like they
      have over Disney World.  I  wonder how much $ was slipped into reelection campaign
      funds in order to get  that one through!  Follow the money!   
       Dan  Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
      ---------------------------------
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally,  mobile search that gives answers, not web links. 
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
"KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      Ditto's  from a USMC 
      
      harvey.rule(at)bell.ca wrote:        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
      w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
            st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }          
          We should all appreciate our collective freedom and the poor buggers that
      are out there with their ass on the line for us!I think of these people every
      time I get into my car or my plane.To a few is owed much.
         
            
      ---------------------------------
      
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew(at)aol.com
      Sent: October 16, 2007 11:15 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
         
          Guys,
      
           
      
          I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that we ALL should, as a matter of pragmatism,
      join either EAA or AOPA simply for the lobbying efforts in Washington.
      Those politicians (bastards) would take our flying privileges away in a heartbeat
      if it meant scoring some kind of political points somewhere. They would
      shut us down completely in the name of "safety" so fast it would make all of
      our collective heads spin. I recently went on a tour of Europe and Asia, and
      NEVER saw one single small plane flying in any of the countries I visited.  Very
      eerie feeling around there with the absence of private aviation, especially
      for me being used to living at the Poplar Grove Airport (C77). 
           
      
          Dan Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
            
      ---------------------------------
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Don't let your dream ride pass you by.    Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: 
Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      Likewise, from a no longer active USMC grunt.
      
      "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"  wrote: Ditto's  from a USMC 
      
      harvey.rule(at)bell.ca wrote:        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
      w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
            st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }          
          We should all appreciate our collective freedom and the poor buggers that
      are out there with their ass on the line for us!I think of these people every
      time I get into my car or my plane.To a few is owed  much.
         
            
      ---------------------------------
      
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew(at)aol.com
      Sent: October 16, 2007 11:15 AM
      Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
         
          Guys,
      
           
      
          I agree wholeheartedly with the notion that we ALL should, as a matter of pragmatism,
      join  either EAA or AOPA simply for the lobbying efforts in Washington.
      Those politicians (bastards) would take our flying privileges away in a
      heartbeat if it meant scoring some kind of political points somewhere. They would
      shut us down completely in the name of "safety" so fast it would make all
      of our collective heads spin. I recently went on a tour of Europe and Asia, and
      NEVER saw one single small plane flying in any of the countries I visited. 
      Very eerie feeling around there with the absence of private aviation, especially
      for me being used to living at the Poplar Grove Airport (C77). 
           
      
          Dan Helsper
      Poplar Grove, IL.
      
      
            
      ---------------------------------
      
      
      Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
               
      
      
             
      ---------------------------------
      Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, Control pressure
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
      
      Ryan,
      Felix the GN-1 has only a fuse tank(J3 cub tank). Full tank down to about 9 gallons,
      slight back pressure. From there to about 6.5 gallons is the sweet spot,
      finger tip control. Less than 6 gallons, forward pressure is needed, at about
      3 or 4 gallons I need 1 to 2 lbs pressure.
      I weigh 155 lbs. The balance would change with a heavier or lighter pilot.
      I plan to have an elevator trim on the Piet I'm building, but will probably not
      add one to Felix.
      Skip
      
      
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Ryan Mueller
      
      In order to provide something topical to this post: how's about this question.
      When you have a fuselage fuel tank only, how noticeable are the changes in control
      pressure as you burn fuel off? Minor annoyance, or something one might want
      to consider installing a simple elevator trim setup for to reduce the level
      of annoyance?
      
      Ryan
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Steve Singleton" <slsingleton(at)cvalley.net>
Subject: 
PIET FOR SALE
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
      
      Hi everyone. Does anybody know anything about the Piet project for sale 
      in Berthoud CO. Steve Singleton
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
From: 
Greg Chapman <greg(at)mousetrax.com>
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, EAA and AOPA
      
      
      Well, if this can add to the fire let it: because of irresponsible 
      actions like the Meigs Invasion, the mayor has discovered the city's 
      budget is in the red for $293 million next year.
      
      My home taxes, already over-inflated in this artificially valued housing 
      market, are expected to rise a substantial 15%.
      
      Yeah, my love for Da Mayor is definitely in the can.
      
      Greg
      
      Ryan Mueller wrote:
      > My wife and I have been living in Chicago for about 10 months now 
      > (looking to leave ASAP), and it fills me with rancour any time I ride 
      > along the lakefront bike path south of Navy Pier. I was fortunate enough 
      > to make it down to the city about a month after he plowed it up to pay 
      > my last respects.
      > 
      > I was never a Daley fan before that; "despise" would be a polite term 
      > for what I feel about him now. I like Chicago, as big cities go, but the 
      > city government is absolutely pathetic, with the Mayor leading them all.
      > 
      > In order to provide something topical to this post: how's about this 
      > question. When you have a fuselage fuel tank only, how noticeable are 
      > the changes in control pressure as you burn fuel off? Minor annoyance, 
      > or something one might want to consider installing a simple elevator 
      > trim setup for to reduce the level of annoyance?
      > 
      > Ryan
      > 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut(at)engalt.com>
Subject: 
wing attach fittings
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
      
      The GN-1 plans show the wing attach fittings being .065" thick 4130 steel.
      There is a reinforcing washer welded on the end of the fitting where the
      attach bolt goes.  The plans state that the washer gets welded on the wing
      spar end fittings only, not the fittings that bolt to the center section.
      Other than the tiny bit of work involved and the miniscule amount of weight,
      can anyone see any conceivable reason for not putting the washers on the
      center section fittings also?
      
      How is it done on the regular Pietenpol wing?  I only have the GN-1 plans
      and the Sky Scout plans, not the regular Piet plans.
      
      I was also going to weld a reinforcing piece on the bottom fitting on the
      center section spars where they attach to the jury struts.  There is not a
      lot of material around those bolts and there is a good bit of load o those
      tabs.
      
      Brian Kraut
      Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
      www.engalt.com
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Retraction, Control pressure
      
      
      In a message dated 10/16/2007 2:39:20 PM Central Daylight Time, 
      skipgadd(at)earthlink.net writes:
      
      Ryan,
      Felix the GN-1 has only a fuse tank(J3 cub tank). Full tank down to about 9 
      gallons, slight back pressure. From there to about 6.5 gallons is the sweet 
      spot, finger tip control. Less than 6 gallons, forward pressure is needed, a
      t 
      about 3 or 4 gallons I need 1 to 2 lbs pressure.
      I weigh 155 lbs. The balance would change with a heavier or lighter pilot.
      I plan to have an elevator trim on the Piet I'm building, but will probably 
      not add one to Felix.
      Skip
      
      
      Skip,
          Sounds like you've got the C of G dialed in.  I haven't got any type of 
      pitch trim either, and I don't see it as any trouble at all...even though so
      me 
      slight back pressure is needed when the cowl tank, and especially the 1 gal 
      smoke tank is full.  Most of my flying seems to be in thermals and somewhat 
      windy conditions, so I rarely get to check the actual trim condition.  
          In the past week, I've introduced three different passengers to the 
      'Wonderful World of Pietenpols', and when I gave them the stick, they were h
      unting 
      all over the sky for Straight and Level...the first two (last wed & thurs) 
      were near ideal conditions.  This evening the wind was 20=BA left crosswind 
      @ 18 - 
      24.  All three were absolutely thrilled to be able to fly an open cockpit, 
      stick & rudder plane !!  What a Hoot to be able to give people that opportun
      ity 
      !!  
          I have, and always will continue to support the EAA, AOPA, and most 
      recently the AAA, for the obvious reasons stated in previous posts.
      
      Chuck G.
      NX770CG
      'From Trees & Rags, to Stick & Rudder - Pietenpols are Forever !!'
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 16, 2007
Subject: 
Re: wing attach fittings
      
      
      In a message dated 10/16/2007 8:36:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
      brian.kraut(at)engalt.com writes:
      
      Other than the tiny bit of work involved and the miniscule amount of weight, 
      can anyone see any conceivable reason for not putting the washers on the 
      center section fittings also?
      
      I've never seen those plans, but it may be that it changes the molecular 
      structure of the steel.  I think that's the reason that washers are braized on
      
      both ends of the lift struts of the Pietenpol, although the wall thickness is 
      much less than .065"
      
      Chuck G.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
Control pressure
Date: 
Oct 17, 2007
      
      
      I have elevator trim control on 41CC but have never used it.  Well, let me change
      that statement a bit: the trim system uses a bungee to apply pull to the elevator
      bellcrank behind the seat and the trim adjustment consists of pulling on
      a cord under the seat to change the tension.  There is a series of knots in
      the cord and a slot in the hole in front of the seat to allow the knot to be dropped
      into the slot when the desired trim is reached.  After the initial setup
      that put "some" tension on the bungee, I've never had to adjust it in flight
      so I guess you could say it simply applied some "pre-load".
      
      My experience in flight has been the same as others have found: when the 16 gal.
      tank in the nose is full, the nose feels heavier and will drop faster if the
      stick is let go.  Midrange is the sweet spot and when the last few gallons remain,
      slight forward pressure is needed in cruise but it's hardly noticeable.
      I weigh right at 150 lbs. most days.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
Control pressure
Date: 
Oct 17, 2007
From: 
"Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
      
      
      I can speak to the other configuration, with the fuel in a centersection
      tank.  I have a trim control using springs to apply pressure to the
      elevator bellcrank and I rarely ever touch it, once set. The only time I
      have to adjust the trim is when I pack a heavy load into the baggage
      compartment (between the firewall and the front cockpit, where most
      people put the fuel tank).
      
      I did find that when I applied gap seals to the elevators (duct tape),
      the trim changed.  I used to have to carry more nosedown trim.  Now with
      the gaps sealed, I have the trim almost full nose up.
      
      Jack Phillips
      Enjoying the perfect Pietenpol weather we've had the last few weeks in
      Raleigh
      
      -----Original Message-----
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
      Zuniga
      Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:42 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control pressure
      
      --> 
      
      
      I have elevator trim control on 41CC but have never used it.  Well, let
      me change that statement a bit: the trim system uses a bungee to apply
      pull to the elevator bellcrank behind the seat and the trim adjustment
      consists of pulling on a cord under the seat to change the tension.
      There is a series of knots in the cord and a slot in the hole in front
      of the seat to allow the knot to be dropped into the slot when the
      desired trim is reached.  After the initial setup that put "some"
      tension on the bungee, I've never had to adjust it in flight so I guess
      you could say it simply applied some "pre-load".
      
      My experience in flight has been the same as others have found: when the
      16 gal. tank in the nose is full, the nose feels heavier and will drop
      faster if the stick is let go.  Midrange is the sweet spot and when the
      last few gallons remain, slight forward pressure is needed in cruise but
      it's hardly noticeable.  I weigh right at 150 lbs. most days.
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
      
      _________________________________________________
      
      or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
      the sender
      
      Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
      - Portuguese
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
BScott116(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 17, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Model A plans
      
      Lowell Frank has done the funk engine.  You would have to get the info from 
      him.  I have asked him to make some written plans, no luck.
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
BScott116(at)aol.com
Date: 
Oct 17, 2007
Subject: 
Funk engines
      
      Great engine -- about 65 HP . Uses inserts and oil line rerouting to lube the 
      drilled crank.  Has to be the late counterbalanced crank.  Lowell frank is 
      now building a fuel injectd system for this engine. 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: 
Model A plans
Date: 
Oct 18, 2007
      
      Thanks. So possibly one could convert a late model A  . . . .
        -----Original Message-----
        From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of
      BScott116(at)aol.com
        Sent: October 17, 2007 10:36 PM
        To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
        Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A plans
      
      
        Lowell Frank has done the funk engine.  You would have to get the info
      from him.  I have asked him to make some written plans, no luck.
      
      
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      --
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Date: 
Oct 18, 2007
Subject: 
Re: Model A plans
      
      
      My A has a Price head, but I found a Funk head at a swap meet. I haven't
      decided yet, but I may use it. Leon S.. Ks
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: 
Looking for a C-85
Date: 
Oct 18, 2007
      
      Anyone out there have an extra C-85 sitting around? (I need log books 
      with this one)
      
      Barry Davis
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 
test... ignore
Date: 
Oct 19, 2007
      
      
      Just wondering if my posts are getting out.  Leaving on vacation for 2 week
      s but will be taking my tablet PC on the cruise... can't be without the Pie
      tenpol list!Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite
       at http://www.flysquirrel.net
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 
test... ignore
Date: 
Oct 19, 2007
From: 
<harvey.rule(at)bell.ca>
      
      I read you 5 by 5
      
      
      ________________________________
      
      From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
      [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
      Zuniga
      Sent: October 19, 2007 9:50 AM
      Subject: Pietenpol-List: test... ignore
      
      
      Just wondering if my posts are getting out.  Leaving on vacation for 2
      weeks but will be taking my tablet PC on the cruise... can't be without
      the Pietenpol list!
      
      Oscar Zuniga
      San Antonio, TX
      mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
      website at http://www.flysquirrel.net 
      
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: 
"Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: 
Campbell swaging tool???
Date: 
Oct 21, 2007

---

September 28, 2007 - October 21, 2007

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ge

---