Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-hb
October 22, 2008 - November 03, 2008
a big wad of oil goo in the bottom, but no rust.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
| From: | owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com |
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:44 AM
Please be careful if you're going to use old Cub struts.
The original struts breathed, which allowed moisture into them,
especially during temperature changes. This moisture would condense
inside, run down, and accumulate at the bottom of the strut. The strut
would rust from the inside-out, leaving little or no indication of a
problem until it was structurally unsound. The AD requires the old
struts to be punch tested at stations within a specified distance from
the bottom and rolled with (hot) linseed oil. The rolling consequently
requires their removal. The AD is satisfied permanently if the struts
are replaced with sealed struts, available from Univair. The on-going
cost and hassle of the AD has incented a lot of Cub people to just bite
the bullet, replace their struts, and be done with it, which is what I
did with mine maybe 6-8 years ago. This is why there is a glut of old
Cub struts around. This is a well-known AD for the Cub, and sealed
struts add value to a Cub when doing a pre-purchase inspection.
The last time I saw mine they were in a junk pile next to the A&P's
hangar with a number of others, but I haven't lived in the area for 6+
years, that A&P is gone, and the airport (X55) has changed hands since
then. I always meant to grab them and take them home, but I'd be willing
to wager they're gone now.
Non-sealed Cub struts may certainly be used like Jack did. Cub fronts
and backs are the same. I'll probably use some myself. But the lower end
should probably be hacked off and a new lower fitting welded onto the
slightly shorter strut, if a visual inspection of the internals of the
strut comes up relatively clean. I might also be inclined to dry them
out somehow, roll them once, then fill in the oil filler hole,
effectively sealing them.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>Sent: Oct 22, 2008 8:05 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>
>Graham,
>
>
>
>Much of this is in the Archives, for these are common questions.
>
>
>
>Some planes have smaller rear lift struts than front lift struts.
>However, most planes have a rear spar much smaller and further aft than
>the Pietenpol's rear spar. In most planes the rear spar carries less
>than half the load of the front spar. In the Pietenpol design, the two
>spars are the same size and the rear spar is relatively far forward,
>suggesting that it carries a substantial part of the wing load.
>
>
>
>As for alloy, I assume you are referring to aluminum alloy. These have
>been used with success in the past (interplane struts on a Stearman are
>aluminum) and several Piet builders are using SkyTek aluminum strut
>material. Again, check the archives. Several Pietenpols are flying
>with wooden struts as well.
>
>
>
>I used lift struts from a couple of J-3 Cubs (a recent AD made a LOT of
>Cub struts available for very little money) because they were cheap and
>readily available. Also, being steel, they were readily weldable to
>incorporate the fittings to attach to the spars and the fuselage (and
>the jury struts).
>
>
>
>Jack Phillips
>
>NX899JP
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
&
>Robin Hewitt
>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:40 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Hi Builders
>
>I would appreciate some feed back on Lift struts for Pietenpols
>
>
>
>Some plans show all four struts to be 2.68 inches X 1.44 inches with a
>
>wall of .049
>
>
>
>Am sure that many Cubs and similar types have the rear strut much
>
>smaller in section than the front
>
>
>
>And the front strut much less than 2 inches wide.
>
>
>
>Has any one considered Alloy , I believe that some Ballanca planes use
>
>this with fittings bolted to the ends.
>
>
>
>Your views would be appreciated
>
>
>
>Regards Graham Hewitt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>
>or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender
>
>Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
They're not the same? I've owned that plane for 15 years and never noticed. And
I do a really long and thorough pre-flight, so it's that much more embarrassing.
I never thought about the cable leads, but now that you mention it, you're
right. When I ordered the sealed struts, I just ordered a set, assuming it was
4x of the same thing, not thinking it was 2x2. I had them shipped straight to
my A&P, so I never saw the invoice; just a healthy charge on a card. I stand
corrected.
When you say the front struts are bigger, is that only in length, or cross-section
as well?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>Sent: Oct 22, 2008 10:49 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>
>
>Everything Jim said is true, except that the front and rear struts are
>the same on a Cub. The front struts are bigger, and have fairlead lugs
>for the aileron cables welded to the strut.
>
>Since Cub struts are a little over 10' long and a Pietenpol strus is
>typically about 8', you can safely cut off the bottom 2' where the rust
>is and then eiather seal or oil the struts. When I cut mine, there was
>a big wad of oil goo in the bottom, but no rust.
>
>Jack Phillips
>NX899JP
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash
>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:44 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>
>
>Please be careful if you're going to use old Cub struts.
>
>The original struts breathed, which allowed moisture into them,
>especially during temperature changes. This moisture would condense
>inside, run down, and accumulate at the bottom of the strut. The strut
>would rust from the inside-out, leaving little or no indication of a
>problem until it was structurally unsound. The AD requires the old
>struts to be punch tested at stations within a specified distance from
>the bottom and rolled with (hot) linseed oil. The rolling consequently
>requires their removal. The AD is satisfied permanently if the struts
>are replaced with sealed struts, available from Univair. The on-going
>cost and hassle of the AD has incented a lot of Cub people to just bite
>the bullet, replace their struts, and be done with it, which is what I
>did with mine maybe 6-8 years ago. This is why there is a glut of old
>Cub struts around. This is a well-known AD for the Cub, and sealed
>struts add value to a Cub when doing a pre-purchase inspection.
>
>The last time I saw mine they were in a junk pile next to the A&P's
>hangar with a number of others, but I haven't lived in the area for 6+
>years, that A&P is gone, and the airport (X55) has changed hands since
>then. I always meant to grab them and take them home, but I'd be willing
>to wager they're gone now.
>
>Non-sealed Cub struts may certainly be used like Jack did. Cub fronts
>and backs are the same. I'll probably use some myself. But the lower end
>should probably be hacked off and a new lower fitting welded onto the
>slightly shorter strut, if a visual inspection of the internals of the
>strut comes up relatively clean. I might also be inclined to dry them
>out somehow, roll them once, then fill in the oil filler hole,
>effectively sealing them.
>
>Jim
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>>Sent: Oct 22, 2008 8:05 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>
>>Graham,
>>
>>
>>
>>Much of this is in the Archives, for these are common questions.
>>
>>
>>
>>Some planes have smaller rear lift struts than front lift struts.
>>However, most planes have a rear spar much smaller and further aft than
>>the Pietenpol's rear spar. In most planes the rear spar carries less
>>than half the load of the front spar. In the Pietenpol design, the two
>>spars are the same size and the rear spar is relatively far forward,
>>suggesting that it carries a substantial part of the wing load.
>>
>>
>>
>>As for alloy, I assume you are referring to aluminum alloy. These have
>>been used with success in the past (interplane struts on a Stearman are
>>aluminum) and several Piet builders are using SkyTek aluminum strut
>>material. Again, check the archives. Several Pietenpols are flying
>>with wooden struts as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>I used lift struts from a couple of J-3 Cubs (a recent AD made a LOT of
>>Cub struts available for very little money) because they were cheap and
>>readily available. Also, being steel, they were readily weldable to
>>incorporate the fittings to attach to the spars and the fuselage (and
>>the jury struts).
>>
>>
>>
>>Jack Phillips
>>
>>NX899JP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
>&
>>Robin Hewitt
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:40 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Builders
>>
>>I would appreciate some feed back on Lift struts for Pietenpols
>>
>>
>>
>>Some plans show all four struts to be 2.68 inches X 1.44 inches with a
>>
>>wall of .049
>>
>>
>>
>>Am sure that many Cubs and similar types have the rear strut much
>>
>>smaller in section than the front
>>
>>
>>
>>And the front strut much less than 2 inches wide.
>>
>>
>>
>>Has any one considered Alloy , I believe that some Ballanca planes use
>>
>>this with fittings bolted to the ends.
>>
>>
>>
>>Your views would be appreciated
>>
>>
>>
>>Regards Graham Hewitt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________
>>
>>or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
>please notify the sender
>>
>>Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
>- Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>
>or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
>
>Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
They are bigger in cross section. I opted to use the front struts for
my Pietenpol, so used the struts from 2 different J-3's. I used the
fronts because they are bigger and stronger even though it meant cutting
off the fairlead lugs and grinding down the welds. Most people use the
rear struts for that reason. I sold the rear struts that I had (I got
the complete sets of struts from two Cubs) to Rick Holland for use on
his Piet.
If I had it to do over again, I would probably just buy new streamline
tubing and make them from scratch. New tubing is 4130 and considerably
stronger than the 1018 steel used in the J-3. Those struts are only
.035" wall also, whereas new stuff is .049". What is the saying, "The
sour taste of poor quality lasts a lot longer than the sweet taste of
low price."?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
They're not the same? I've owned that plane for 15 years and never
noticed. And I do a really long and thorough pre-flight, so it's that
much more embarrassing. I never thought about the cable leads, but now
that you mention it, you're right. When I ordered the sealed struts, I
just ordered a set, assuming it was 4x of the same thing, not thinking
it was 2x2. I had them shipped straight to my A&P, so I never saw the
invoice; just a healthy charge on a card. I stand corrected.
When you say the front struts are bigger, is that only in length, or
cross-section as well?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>Sent: Oct 22, 2008 10:49 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>
>
>Everything Jim said is true, except that the front and rear struts are
>the same on a Cub. The front struts are bigger, and have fairlead lugs
>for the aileron cables welded to the strut.
>
>Since Cub struts are a little over 10' long and a Pietenpol strus is
>typically about 8', you can safely cut off the bottom 2' where the rust
>is and then eiather seal or oil the struts. When I cut mine, there was
>a big wad of oil goo in the bottom, but no rust.
>
>Jack Phillips
>NX899JP
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ash
>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:44 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>
>
>Please be careful if you're going to use old Cub struts.
>
>The original struts breathed, which allowed moisture into them,
>especially during temperature changes. This moisture would condense
>inside, run down, and accumulate at the bottom of the strut. The strut
>would rust from the inside-out, leaving little or no indication of a
>problem until it was structurally unsound. The AD requires the old
>struts to be punch tested at stations within a specified distance from
>the bottom and rolled with (hot) linseed oil. The rolling consequently
>requires their removal. The AD is satisfied permanently if the struts
>are replaced with sealed struts, available from Univair. The on-going
>cost and hassle of the AD has incented a lot of Cub people to just bite
>the bullet, replace their struts, and be done with it, which is what I
>did with mine maybe 6-8 years ago. This is why there is a glut of old
>Cub struts around. This is a well-known AD for the Cub, and sealed
>struts add value to a Cub when doing a pre-purchase inspection.
>
>The last time I saw mine they were in a junk pile next to the A&P's
>hangar with a number of others, but I haven't lived in the area for 6+
>years, that A&P is gone, and the airport (X55) has changed hands since
>then. I always meant to grab them and take them home, but I'd be
willing
>to wager they're gone now.
>
>Non-sealed Cub struts may certainly be used like Jack did. Cub fronts
>and backs are the same. I'll probably use some myself. But the lower
end
>should probably be hacked off and a new lower fitting welded onto the
>slightly shorter strut, if a visual inspection of the internals of the
>strut comes up relatively clean. I might also be inclined to dry them
>out somehow, roll them once, then fill in the oil filler hole,
>effectively sealing them.
>
>Jim
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>>Sent: Oct 22, 2008 8:05 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>
>>Graham,
>>
>>
>>
>>Much of this is in the Archives, for these are common questions.
>>
>>
>>
>>Some planes have smaller rear lift struts than front lift struts.
>>However, most planes have a rear spar much smaller and further aft
than
>>the Pietenpol's rear spar. In most planes the rear spar carries less
>>than half the load of the front spar. In the Pietenpol design, the
two
>>spars are the same size and the rear spar is relatively far forward,
>>suggesting that it carries a substantial part of the wing load.
>>
>>
>>
>>As for alloy, I assume you are referring to aluminum alloy. These
have
>>been used with success in the past (interplane struts on a Stearman
are
>>aluminum) and several Piet builders are using SkyTek aluminum strut
>>material. Again, check the archives. Several Pietenpols are flying
>>with wooden struts as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>I used lift struts from a couple of J-3 Cubs (a recent AD made a LOT
of
>>Cub struts available for very little money) because they were cheap
and
>>readily available. Also, being steel, they were readily weldable to
>>incorporate the fittings to attach to the spars and the fuselage (and
>>the jury struts).
>>
>>
>>
>>Jack Phillips
>>
>>NX899JP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham
>&
>>Robin Hewitt
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:40 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Builders
>>
>>I would appreciate some feed back on Lift struts for Pietenpols
>>
>>
>>
>>Some plans show all four struts to be 2.68 inches X 1.44 inches with a
>>
>>wall of .049
>>
>>
>>
>>Am sure that many Cubs and similar types have the rear strut much
>>
>>smaller in section than the front
>>
>>
>>
>>And the front strut much less than 2 inches wide.
>>
>>
>>
>>Has any one considered Alloy , I believe that some Ballanca planes use
>>
>>this with fittings bolted to the ends.
>>
>>
>>
>>Your views would be appreciated
>>
>>
>>
>>Regards Graham Hewitt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________
>>
>>or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
>please notify the sender
>>
>>Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese -
Nederlands
>- Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>
>or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender
>
>Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re Lift Struts |
Cross section is bigger on the front strut as well. Not the best
picture but you can see the difference here. These are the sealed
struts with the big forks on my Cub.
-john-
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
Madison, WI 53718
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
On Oct 22, 2008, at 10:11 AM, Jim Ash wrote:
>
> They're not the same? I've owned that plane for 15 years and never
> noticed. And I do a really long and thorough pre-flight, so it's
> that much more embarrassing. I never thought about the cable leads,
> but now that you mention it, you're right. When I ordered the sealed
> struts, I just ordered a set, assuming it was 4x of the same thing,
> not thinking it was 2x2. I had them shipped straight to my A&P, so I
> never saw the invoice; just a healthy charge on a card. I stand
> corrected.
>
> When you say the front struts are bigger, is that only in length, or
> cross-section as well?
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>> Sent: Oct 22, 2008 10:49 AM
>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>
>> >
>>
>> Everything Jim said is true, except that the front and rear struts
>> are
>> the same on a Cub. The front struts are bigger, and have fairlead
>> lugs
>> for the aileron cables welded to the strut.
>>
>> Since Cub struts are a little over 10' long and a Pietenpol strus is
>> typically about 8', you can safely cut off the bottom 2' where the
>> rust
>> is and then eiather seal or oil the struts. When I cut mine, there
>> was
>> a big wad of oil goo in the bottom, but no rust.
>>
>> Jack Phillips
>> NX899JP
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
>> Ash
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:44 AM
>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com; pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>
>>
>> Please be careful if you're going to use old Cub struts.
>>
>> The original struts breathed, which allowed moisture into them,
>> especially during temperature changes. This moisture would condense
>> inside, run down, and accumulate at the bottom of the strut. The
>> strut
>> would rust from the inside-out, leaving little or no indication of a
>> problem until it was structurally unsound. The AD requires the old
>> struts to be punch tested at stations within a specified distance
>> from
>> the bottom and rolled with (hot) linseed oil. The rolling
>> consequently
>> requires their removal. The AD is satisfied permanently if the struts
>> are replaced with sealed struts, available from Univair. The on-going
>> cost and hassle of the AD has incented a lot of Cub people to just
>> bite
>> the bullet, replace their struts, and be done with it, which is
>> what I
>> did with mine maybe 6-8 years ago. This is why there is a glut of old
>> Cub struts around. This is a well-known AD for the Cub, and sealed
>> struts add value to a Cub when doing a pre-purchase inspection.
>>
>> The last time I saw mine they were in a junk pile next to the A&P's
>> hangar with a number of others, but I haven't lived in the area for
>> 6+
>> years, that A&P is gone, and the airport (X55) has changed hands
>> since
>> then. I always meant to grab them and take them home, but I'd be
>> willing
>> to wager they're gone now.
>>
>> Non-sealed Cub struts may certainly be used like Jack did. Cub fronts
>> and backs are the same. I'll probably use some myself. But the
>> lower end
>> should probably be hacked off and a new lower fitting welded onto the
>> slightly shorter strut, if a visual inspection of the internals of
>> the
>> strut comes up relatively clean. I might also be inclined to dry them
>> out somehow, roll them once, then fill in the oil filler hole,
>> effectively sealing them.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
>>> Sent: Oct 22, 2008 8:05 AM
>>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>>
>>> Graham,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Much of this is in the Archives, for these are common questions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some planes have smaller rear lift struts than front lift struts.
>>> However, most planes have a rear spar much smaller and further aft
>>> than
>>> the Pietenpol's rear spar. In most planes the rear spar carries
>>> less
>>> than half the load of the front spar. In the Pietenpol design,
>>> the two
>>> spars are the same size and the rear spar is relatively far forward,
>>> suggesting that it carries a substantial part of the wing load.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As for alloy, I assume you are referring to aluminum alloy. These
>>> have
>>> been used with success in the past (interplane struts on a
>>> Stearman are
>>> aluminum) and several Piet builders are using SkyTek aluminum strut
>>> material. Again, check the archives. Several Pietenpols are flying
>>> with wooden struts as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I used lift struts from a couple of J-3 Cubs (a recent AD made a
>>> LOT of
>>> Cub struts available for very little money) because they were
>>> cheap and
>>> readily available. Also, being steel, they were readily weldable to
>>> incorporate the fittings to attach to the spars and the fuselage
>>> (and
>>> the jury struts).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jack Phillips
>>>
>>> NX899JP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Graham
>> &
>>> Robin Hewitt
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:40 AM
>>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re Lift Struts
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Builders
>>>
>>> I would appreciate some feed back on Lift struts for Pietenpols
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some plans show all four struts to be 2.68 inches X 1.44 inches
>>> with a
>>>
>>> wall of .049
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am sure that many Cubs and similar types have the rear strut much
>>>
>>> smaller in section than the front
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And the front strut much less than 2 inches wide.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Has any one considered Alloy , I believe that some Ballanca planes
>>> use
>>>
>>> this with fittings bolted to the ends.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your views would be appreciated
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards Graham Hewitt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________
>>>
>>> or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
>> please notify the sender
>>>
>>> Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese -
>>> Nederlands
>> - Norsk - Portuguese
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
>> please notify the sender
>>
>> Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese -
>> Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
41CC has the larger size strut on the main and the smaller one of the rear. The
bottoms are welded closed very much like the Cub picture that John posted, but
the top ends of the struts are open in order to fit the attach straps as detailed
in the plans. I'm not sure I've ever noticed any drain holes in the bottoms
of the struts but then again the top ends of the struts are under the wings
so I would not expect to ever get rain in them. And since I never wash the
airplane, there is no fear of wash water getting in them either ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gardiner Mason" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College #12 |
Is camping under the wing allowed at the college? Also, is there a toilet
available? Gardiner Mason
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College #12
>
>
>>From William Wynne:
>
> We've posted an update on our Web site at
>
> http://FlyCorvair.com/hangar.html with all the information for Corvair
> College #12 to be held Nov. 7-9 just
> outside Columbia, S.C.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Corky wrote-
>Had planned to drill a small hole on lower extreme of all four struts but
>that was before ole Al set in so you will have to do it.
>Fronts are NEW stuff.
Ok, Corky- I'll take care of it but you know they say you can keep Mr. Alzheimer
at bay by keeping your mind challenged. For example of a good mental challenge,
have you ever wondered how much water an empty milk jug would displace, and
how many of them it might take to float a Piet at full gross if it were to
go down in Calcasieu Lake?
By the way, I know your eyesight is pretty fair, judging by the AARP eye chart
you sent me a while ago ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
current caretaker of Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Corvair College #12 |
Gardiner asks-
>Is camping under the wing allowed at the college?
>Also, is there a toilet available?
Since the event is taking place at an airpark and being hosted by residents of
the park, I assume that there will be toilets available in their home or hangar.
I would also assume people could camp under their wing. However, you can
get that info from William Wynne if there is any doubt.
Oscar Zuniga
current caretaker of Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
Rain ain't the problem; it's condensation. If the tops of your struts are open
(and have been for years), do yourself the favor and inspect the bottoms. If they're
really open, maybe you could get a fiberscope down there for a look-see.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 22, 2008 12:44 PM
>To: Pietenpol List
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lift Struts
>
>
>41CC has the larger size strut on the main and the smaller one of the rear. The
bottoms are welded closed very much like the Cub picture that John posted,
but the top ends of the struts are open in order to fit the attach straps as detailed
in the plans. I'm not sure I've ever noticed any drain holes in the bottoms
of the struts but then again the top ends of the struts are under the wings
so I would not expect to ever get rain in them. And since I never wash the
airplane, there is no fear of wash water getting in them either ;o)
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>Air Camper NX41CC
>San Antonio, TX
>mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ben Williams <Ben.Williams(at)pdi.dreamworks.com> |
How about this? The price is for 10'....
http://store.leadingedgeairfoils.com/product_info.php?products_id=6425
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jonathan Ragle <jon95gt(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Pietenpol Bomber |
My dad told me that things were less dangerous back then. Cigarettes didn'
t cause cancer=2C there was no use for airbags=2C drunk driving didn't kill
people etc.
Do no archive
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol BomberDate: Tue=2C 21 Oct 2008 12:58
.com
Ahhh=2C reminds me of the days of my youth=85
Back when I was 18=2C my Dad bought a J-3. My brother and I were going to
enter it in a flour-sack bombing contest at an airshow in Memphis=2C so we
asked a local farmer who had an airstrip if we could practice bombing at hi
s place. He said he=92d rather we=92d use lime than flour so it would do h
is fields some good and let us go. We started practicing with various alti
tudes and weren=92t being very successful. I decided to try the dive-bomb
approach. I took the Cub up to 1=2C000=92=2C chopped the throttle to idle
and stood it on its nose=2C watching the airspeed to keep it out of the red
line (125 mph on a Cub). I tossed the bomb out at about 100=92 and pulled
back on the stick. You know=2C it takes just about 100=92 to pull a Cub ou
t of a terminal velocity dive. I pointed the nose to the sky and gave it f
ull throttle and it kept going down! It finally began to climb as the tail
wheel kissed the grass. I decided right then and there that dive bombing i
s not my preferred technique. As he was watching this from the saftey of t
he ground=2C my brother kept wondering =93how am I going to get home if he
crashes the airplane?=94
The farmer watched us practice day after day and finally said =93Boys=2C I
=92ve got 40 acres in watermelons. There are always a few that the crows h
ave pecked holes in that I can=92t sell. I sure would enjoy watching you d
rop them.=94
We took the stick out of the back=2C and my brother flew the Cub from the f
ront seat while I sat in the back with a watermelon under each arm and 3 of
them on the floorbards. I made an adjustable bombsight that proved to be
pretty accurate=2C as long as the altitude was constant and the wind wasn
=92t blowing too hard. I would lean out the door and shout instructions to
him=2C as he maintained a constant altitude. I=92d shout =93Left a bit.
Steady. Steady. A little bit to the right ' Bomb=92s Away! We got wher
e we could consistently hit a target the size of a car from 500=92. Let me
tell you=2C when you drop a watermelon 500=92 it digs a crater about 6=92
in daimeter and a foot deep and just fills it with mud. It throws a shower
of mud and dirt about 30=92 in the air. Spectacular!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh=2C NC
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bellSent: Monday=2C October 20=2C
2008 2:36 PMTo: Pietenpol DiscussionSubject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Bom
ber
Hello guys=2C we had a blast this past saturday with a little airport hange
r party/fly-in. We were going to have a spot landing competition=2C and bo
mb drop=2C but just did the bombdrop. It was windy and a little bit cold b
ut we still had fun. A friend of mine I work with came by in time for his
1st ride in the piet=2C little did he know he was getting drafted into the
Pietenpol Airforce. He was my bombbardier. Water balloons were the ordena
nce=2C and a blue barrel the target. That is the 1st time I have tried tha
t=2C we did one low torpedo type run=2C and a 900ft high=2C B-29 style app
roach. Of course the B-29's bombsight was waaaaay off. Earl=2C with his b
lue Stinson 108 actually hit the barrel=2C with his girlfriend as his bomba
dier=2C and the Eckles boys in the cub got close with the "stuka" dive bomb
aproach. Next year I will try to plan a little better and get a few more
invites out so we can have team bombdrop=2C Piets vs ???? (I bet RV's woul
d have a heck of a time throwing stuff out.)
Safe building and water bombing=2C
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d=2C proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error=2C pleas
e notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
_________________________________________________________________
When your life is on the go=97take your life with you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | woodflier(at)aol.com |
I wrestled with the lift strut issue for a while. Checked out some old struts off
some Cubs and T-crafts but ultimately decided to go with new steel streamline
tubing. Paid about $900 for four 8-foot lenghts but would rather be sure of
the integrity of these pretty crucial pieces of hardware. The roughly 2.5 x 1
inch by .049 stuff is stiff enough that I may not need jury struts.
A bigger issue for me was the fitting at the top of the strut that attached into
the fitting on the wing. The fabricated fitting according to plans allowed my
strut to move up and down about a half inch, partly because it can slide up
and down inside the strut on the bolt that holds it to the strut. I bought some
1 x 1 mild steel bar stock on line and machined (if you can call using a grinder
to shape the part..) fittings that slide into the streamline tube. No slop
and I'll feel a lot better about that critical attach point.
Matt Paxton
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Lift struts |
For those who haven't bought...I found this in the archives but I wanted to
double check and make sure, so I called Bill Rewey this morning to verify.
He said that Wag-Aero's 1020 mild steel streamline tubing would work. 1.78"
x 1.06" x .049", listed at $5.99 per ft in their catalog. If you get five 8
ft lengths you have one length for each strut, and the fifth length of
tubing for the cabanes.
I tried calling Wag-Aero to check price, but they are only open M-F. Might
be worth looking into though.
Ryan
On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:41 AM, wrote:
> I wrestled with the lift strut issue for a while. Checked out some old
> struts off some Cubs and T-crafts but ultimately decided to go with new
> steel streamline tubing. Paid about $900 for four 8-foot lenghts but would
> rather be sure of the integrity of these pretty crucial pieces of hardware.
> The roughly 2.5 x 1 inch by .049 stuff is stiff enough that I may not need
> jury struts.
>
> A bigger issue for me was the fitting at the top of the strut that attached
> into the fitting on the wing. The fabricated fitting according to plans
> allowed my strut to move up and down about a half inch, partly because it
> can slide up and down inside the strut on the bolt that holds it to the
> strut. I bought some 1 x 1 mild steel bar stock on line and machined (if you
> can call using a grinder to shape the part..) fittings that slide into the
> streamline tube. No slop and I'll feel a lot better about that critical
> attach point.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Lift struts-Wag Aero |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | the Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
The list sure has been slow lately so I thought I'd report on having another friendly
and attractive woman fall for the old Pietenpol charm. Our next-door-neighbors
(hangar-wise) are Steve & Freda Jones, editors of the EAA Chapter 35
award-winning newsletter and some really nice folks. Word got to me that Freda
had been looking at that empty front cockpit of my airplane and wondering when
I might be giving rides. So up we went yesterday.
Freda was the picture-perfect Piet passenger. Didn't touch anything unless asked
to, enjoyed every minute of the ride, doesn't notice bumpy air, and (most importantly)
complimented the pilot on his landing ;o) She is not a very tall
person so she had very little problem getting in the front cockpit, we got her
buckled in, and went off to see the sights around Medina Lake. Landing was on
grass and I didn't drop it in too hard but Freda thought it was pretty nice
anyway.
I think Steve got some pictures but don't worry... unlike Mike Cuy who likes to,
um, get physical when he helps ladies into his airplane, the only assistance
I gave Freda was to guide her foot to the step when she was getting out. I tell
you, these old airplanes are chick magnets, even the unwashed ones like mine.
The hangar grime and oil drips may even add a certain dashing air to the airplane.
Or at least it's a good excuse for my lack of attention to washing it
;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AMsafetyC(at)aol.com |
Nice story Oscar, gives all us in the process of the build something to loo
k
forward to.
I been down and out of work for the past week , just had knee surgery if no
t
for the no driving thing I would have been back in action sooner. At any
rate I been in transition all week from a imp to a limp to a hobble and bac
k to
the gimp. The doc said it went really well, as if he was gonna say anything
different? Like, "I really botched it, I guess I should have stayed home to
day
instead of screwing up your knee..... The good news is they let me work fro
m
home that helped. If I had to sit home and watch Oprah all I think I would
just shoot myself and be done with it once and for all.
As it worked out I got a chance to sneak over to the project and get some
work done, I got the elevators and rudder about finished short of the metal
parts and the horizontal stabilizer is on the bench in the lay out jig up st
age.
All in all I got some serious building done lately, bum knee and all. Oh yea
the cane thing evokes no sympathy at all from anyone family of outside so n
o
help there. Which is fine with me, ask for nothing and get what you asked f
or
is not a disappointment, its what's expected and if you do get something
like help or service its more than you expected making it even better. Simp
le
rule of life I suppose.Ask for nothing, ,expect nothing and anything you
receive is a benefit to be cherished.
At any rate I been working on the magnet just waiting for my turn to wow th
e
crowds in feats of aeronautical excellence maybe the greatest display of
aeronautical skill since the invention of the aeroplane....
just thought I would share the adventure with ya,
John
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Magnetic wood |
John,
Good on ya for continuing to make progress despite having a bum landing
gear. Take some pride in the fact that you made good progress despite the
condition you find yourself in.
I feel your pain...I think, sort of. Somehow I "reignited" the back injury I
acquired in Iraq (I don't understand how continually jumping 6ft out of the
back of our 7 ton trucks with 70 lbs on my back could hurt me ;)
I've been stove up for two weeks (at the young age of 28). It's been a damn
challenge to make progress. We did some serious reorganization this weekend,
so I can now stand and continue to cut gussets. Woo-hoo!
Btw.....if the cane doesn't garner respect, then you may be due for a new
AvPimp cane.
Ryan
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 10:32 PM, wrote:
> Nice story Oscar, gives all us in the process of the build something to
> look forward to.
>
> I been down and out of work for the past week , just had knee surgery if
> not for the no driving thing I would have been back in action sooner. At any
> rate I been in transition all week from a imp to a limp to a hobble and back
> to the gimp. The doc said it went really well, as if he was gonna say
> anything different? Like, "I really botched it, I guess I should have stayed
> home today instead of screwing up your knee..... The good news is they let
> me work from home that helped. If I had to sit home and watch Oprah all I
> think I would just shoot myself and be done with it once and for all.
>
> As it worked out I got a chance to sneak over to the project and get some
> work done, I got the elevators and rudder about finished short of the metal
> parts and the horizontal stabilizer is on the bench in the lay out jig up
> stage. All in all I got some serious building done lately, bum knee and all.
> Oh yea the cane thing evokes no sympathy at all from anyone family of
> outside so no help there. Which is fine with me, ask for nothing and get
> what you asked for is not a disappointment, its what's expected and if you
> do get something like help or service its more than you expected making it
> even better. Simple rule of life I suppose.Ask for nothing, ,expect nothing
> and anything you receive is a benefit to be cherished.
>
> At any rate I been working on the magnet just waiting for my turn to wow
> the crowds in feats of aeronautical excellence maybe the greatest display of
> aeronautical skill since the invention of the aeroplane....
>
>
> just thought I would share the adventure with ya,
>
> John
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Struts and supports |
As I get closer to finishing my ribs, I have been nosing around the plans a
t the rest of the wing and it's associated fittings. I am curious... why us
e the streamlined or tapered, as I have seen them called, tubes for the str
uts and the short runs that go to the engine mounts? Why not just round tub
e? I wonder if a slightly smaller dia. tube, maybe heaver wall, would be ju
st as good? I am basically thinking out loud, but if someone has some good
reasoning behind the streamline use, other then aerodynamics, please...
-
Then there are the small jury struts. Some use, some do not...when should t
hey be used and when can they be omitted? I hear that it is a support issue
...there again, I wonder if the round tube on the struts would still requir
e the jurys?
-
I have also wondered about other materials then the 4130. Aluminum, other s
teels, carbon fiber, wood...
-
Thanks all.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Struts and supports |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
Michael, if you look in the archives under lift struts you will find
many questions answered. As for Jury struts, I ran a stress analysis
many years ago examining the need for them. I don't have a copy of it
at hand now, but it was published in the BPA Newsletter sometime back in
1996. It came to the conclusion that Jury struts are necessary to
prevent buckling of the lift struts under negative G loads. You can get
some pretty substantial negative G loading from moderate turbulence, or
a hard landing. The jury struts should not be placed at the exact
middle of the lift struts to prevent harmonic vibrations.
As for leaving the struts round, there are two reasons not to do that.
One - they're ugly. Two - a Pietenpol doesn't need any help producing
drag - it makes quite enough on its own, without giving it any help, and
a cylinder is one of the highest drag shapes there is (which is why
streamlined struts actually produce less drag than round flying wires).
It is quite feasible to make struts with round tubing, with wooden
streamlined fairings. Some Piets (including the Canadian built one that
won a Lindy award at OSH 2007) have lift struts made entirely of wood.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
As I get closer to finishing my ribs, I have been nosing around the
plans at the rest of the wing and it's associated fittings. I am
curious... why use the streamlined or tapered, as I have seen them
called, tubes for the struts and the short runs that go to the engine
mounts? Why not just round tube? I wonder if a slightly smaller dia.
tube, maybe heaver wall, would be just as good? I am basically thinking
out loud, but if someone has some good reasoning behind the streamline
use, other then aerodynamics, please...
Then there are the small jury struts. Some use, some do not...when
should they be used and when can they be omitted? I hear that it is a
support issue...there again, I wonder if the round tube on the struts
would still require the jurys?
I have also wondered about other materials then the 4130. Aluminum,
other steels, carbon fiber, wood...
Thanks all.
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Struts and supports |
The streamline tube, I assume most use steel. Any research on aluminum? I w
onder what the weight difference between wood and the steel struts would be
.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Phillips, Jack wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 10:25 AM
Michael, if you look in the archives under lift struts you will find many q
uestions answered.- As for Jury struts, I ran a stress analysis many year
s ago examining the need for them.- I don=92t have a copy of it at hand n
ow, but it was published in the BPA Newsletter sometime back in 1996.- It
came to the conclusion that Jury struts are necessary to prevent buckling
of the lift struts under negative G loads.- You can get some pretty subst
antial negative G loading from moderate turbulence, or a hard landing.- T
he jury struts should not be placed at the exact middle of the lift struts
to prevent harmonic vibrations.
-
As for leaving the struts round, there are two reasons not to do that.- O
ne ' they=92re ugly.- Two ' a Pietenpol doesn=92t need any help produ
cing drag ' it makes quite enough on its own, without giving it any help,
and a cylinder is one of the highest drag shapes there is (which is why st
reamlined struts actually produce less drag than round flying wires).- It
is quite feasible to make struts with round tubing, with wooden streamline
d fairings.- Some Piets (including the Canadian built one that won a Lind
y award at OSH 2007) have lift struts made entirely of wood.
-
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
-
As I get closer to finishing my ribs, I have been nosing around the plans a
t the rest of the wing and it's associated fittings. I am curious... why us
e the streamlined or tapered, as I have seen them called, tubes for the str
uts and the short runs that go to the engine mounts? Why not just round tub
e? I wonder if a slightly smaller dia. tube, maybe heaver wall, would be ju
st as good? I am basically thinking out loud, but if someone has some good
reasoning behind the streamline use, other then aerodynamics, please...
-
Then there are the small jury struts. Some use, some do not...when should t
hey be used and when can they be omitted? I hear that it is a support issue
...there again, I wonder if the round tube on the struts would still requir
e the jurys?
-
I have also wondered about other materials then the 4130. Aluminum, other s
teels, carbon fiber, wood...
-
Thanks all.
-_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Michael;
There is another option as well: use round steel tubing (more efficient and affordable) and then slide on molded plastic streamline fairings that the ultralight guys use. Easier to do than making wooden fairings to streamline the round tubing. These used to be available through SkyTek but I don't see them anymore: http://www.ultralightnews.ca/streamlinedfairings/1.html
These plastic streamline fairings were installed on the prototype M-19 "Flying
Squirrel", which uses round 4130 steel wing lift struts. The airplane cruises
at 75-80MPH and picked up about 5 MPH after installing the streamline fairings
on the wing struts only. I'm not saying that it will make that big a difference
on the Piet, but there is a very large drag difference between round tubing
and streamlined. It's on the order of 2 to 3x the drag.
The jury struts, cabane braces, and gear legs on 41CC are simple round tubing but
cabanes and wing struts are streamlined.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Michael,
Yes, some builders use aluminum struts. They are generally much cheaper than
new 4130 streamline tubing. Here is one source:
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
Also check out DJ Vegh's website:
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-30-03.htm
Paul Poulin, the builder of the Canadian Piet mentioned by Jack, commented
that he built his wooden lift struts (solid laminated White Ash) and then
weighed them and found them to be slightly lighter than streamlined steel
lift struts from a Piper Tri-Pacer (I think).
I like Jack Phillips' Number One reason not to use round steel tubing as-is.
They ARE ugly.
Using round steel tubing, faired with wood, and wrapped with tape, then
doped was a typical practice used on aircraft of the same vintage as the
Pietenpol (see attached detail from Corben Cabin Ace plans).
There has been quite a bit of discussion about this stuff in the past. If
you've got a bit of time on your hands, check the archives.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
The streamline tube, I assume most use steel. Any research on aluminum? I
wonder what the weight difference between wood and the steel struts would
be.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
Larry Williams has been flying his airplane with the aluminum Skytech strut
s
for years now. These are the same ones I put on my airplane. Advantage is
less weight. If you don't want to attempt welding these (which I didn't) you
have to insert and attach the end fittings with AN bolts. I used 7075 alumi
num
rectangular bar stock for the end fittings McMaster Carr Supply # 9055K13
$48.38 for 3 lineal feet. Worked great.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
That is a great option! I have the skytechs and am getting near the
stage of making the ends and I am trying to work though that. Got any
pictures?
----- Original Message -----
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:42 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Larry Williams has been flying his airplane with the aluminum Skytech
struts for years now. These are the same ones I put on my airplane.
Advantage is less weight. If you don't want to attempt welding these
(which I didn't) you have to insert and attach the end fittings with AN
bolts. I used 7075 aluminum rectangular bar stock for the end fittings
McMaster Carr Supply # 9055K13 $48.38 for 3 lineal feet. Worked great.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Got22b,
I and others would like to address you by name :0) We are very friendly
here. Anyway, yes I have photos on my home computer of these end fittings
with
the aluminum struts. I will make myself a note to post them tonight.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom machi
ned end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own is weldi
ng tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom mounts, bolt i
t together, done.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, HelsperSew(at)aol.com wrote:
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com <HelsperSew(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 1:18 PM
Got22b,
-
I and others would like to address you by name :0)---We are very frie
ndly here.- Anyway, yes I have photos on my home computer of these end fi
ttings with the aluminum struts. I will make myself a note to post them ton
ight.-
-
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registra
tion required and great graphics ' check it out!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Thanks Bill, this is great stuff! Very helpfull!
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Bill Church wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 11:58 AM
Michael,
-
Yes, some builders use aluminum struts. They are generally much cheaper tha
n new 4130 streamline tubing. Here is one source:
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
-
Also check out DJ Vegh's website:
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-30-03.htm
-
Paul Poulin, the builder of the Canadian Piet mentioned by Jack, commented
that he built his wooden lift struts (solid laminated White Ash) and then w
eighed them and found them to be slightly lighter than streamlined steel li
ft struts from a Piper Tri-Pacer (I think).
-
I like Jack Phillips' Number One reason not to use round steel tubing as-is
. They-ARE ugly.
Using round steel tubing, faired with wood, and wrapped with -tape, then
doped was a typical practice-used on aircraft of the same vintage as the
Pietenpol (see attached detail from Corben Cabin Ace plans).
-
There has been quite a bit of discussion about this stuff in the past. If y
ou've got a bit of time on your hands,-check the archives.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
The streamline tube, I assume most use steel. Any research on aluminum? I w
onder what the weight difference between wood and the steel struts would be
.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
You'll become a pretty good welder by the time you finish this airplane.
There's an awful lot of welding to be done on a wooden airplane.
Jack Phillips
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom
machined end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own
is welding tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom
mounts, bolt it together, done.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, HelsperSew(at)aol.com wrote:
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com <HelsperSew(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 1:18 PM
Got22b,
I and others would like to address you by name :0) We are very
friendly here. Anyway, yes I have photos on my home computer of these
end fittings with the aluminum struts. I will make myself a note to post
them tonight.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics - check it out!
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" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
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immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Isablcorky(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:
an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen
Why Mikeee, a Southern gentleman has neither experienced those conditions
nor even thought such. Have we missed something?
A S G
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
Michael,
You probably don't want to be welding the aluminum struts anyway. Many
aluminum alloys will lose a significant amount of strength in the area
adjacent to the weld. For instance, with 6061-T6 (the alloy the Sky-Tek
struts are made of), the design stress (in bending) drops from 24,000 psi to
14,000 psi within 1 inch of the weld. That is a very significant loss (more
than 40%). The extreme heat of welding changes the molecular structure of
the aluminum, resulting in localized reduced physical strength. The best
approach for structural aluminum parts is to use mechanical fastening,
rather than welding.
But there are lots of other areas on this wooden airplane that will need to
be welded. So you will eventually either need to learn that skill, or find
someone else that has the skill to do it for you.
Steel struts are another story. No issues with loss of strength in the weld
areas with steel.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom
machined end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own is
welding tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom mounts,
bolt it together, done.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Learning to weld |
Michael,
I would highly recommend that you open yourself to the possibility of
learning to weld. As others have stated there are MANY parts on this wood a
irplane
that need welding. I would hate the thought of every time I wanted somethin
g
welded that I had to stop what I am doing and run this or that part out to
the welder.......what a nightmare!
Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides,
learning new building skills have been every bit as rewarding as any other p
hase
of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet without knowi
ng
how/having welding equipment.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Learning to weld |
I second that!
Although I had gas welding schooling about 25 years ago, I never had any
real experience. Many here will tell you that there are easier ways to weld
than gas, but getting that set up is cheap! It took awhile to get in the
groove, but now I am enjoying each little welding project more and
more..and, as Dan says, there's a bunch of them! If things keep progressing
this well, I may even do my own engine mount!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
Michael,
I would highly recommend that you open yourself to the possibility of
learning to weld. As others have stated there are MANY parts on this wood
airplane that need welding. I would hate the thought of every time I wanted
something welded that I had to stop what I am doing and run this or that
part out to the welder.......what a nightmare!
Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides,
learning new building skills have been every bit as rewarding as any other
phase of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet without
knowing how/having welding equipment.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics - check
%0ahttp://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001> it out!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
You lie Corky, you lie:))
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:12 PM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight
Time, Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:
an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen
Why Mikeee, a Southern gentleman has neither experienced those
conditions nor even thought such. Have we missed something?
A S G
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
no registration required and great graph1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
So then is a MIG ok for doing the brackets? I think most recommend the gas
or TIG...I actually have a gas set up, but have only used it as a torch!
Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Learning to weld is something I am looking forward to doing. For those of u
s
that haven't purchased any equipment yet, can those who have provide any
recommendations as to what to get for gas welding? Of course I hope to tren
d
more towards the economical side, but still have the capability to tackle
the welding for the airplane....
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Gary Boothe wrote:
> I second that!
>
>
> Although I had gas welding schooling about 25 years ago, I never had any
> real experience. Many here will tell you that there are easier ways to we
ld
> than gas, but getting that set up is cheap! It took awhile to get in the
> groove, but now I am enjoying each little welding project more and
> more=85.and, as Dan says, there's a bunch of them! If things keep progres
sing
> this well, I may even do my own engine mount!
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then, attracting women
is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or something similar
to
attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing wingovers
and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her face...ugh those d
amn
adrenalin junkies!
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]"
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not archive
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Dan,
Did you use their large strut in the front/small strut in the rear, or the
large strut for both front and rear?
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 11:42 AM, wrote:
> Larry Williams has been flying his airplane with the aluminum Skytech
> struts for years now. These are the same ones I put on my airplane.
> Advantage is less weight. If you don't want to attempt welding these (which
> I didn't) you have to insert and attach the end fittings with AN bolts. I
> used 7075 aluminum rectangular bar stock for the end fittings McMaster Carr
> Supply # 9055K13 $48.38 for 3 lineal feet. Worked great.
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
If possible avoid MIG welding, its too easy to get a pretty weld that is
purely cosmetic and is structurally unsound. If you have any experience with
gas, the transition to TIG will be easy and you will do nice strong welds.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 3:05:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com writes:
So then is a MIG ok for doing the brackets? I think most recommend the
gas or TIG...I actually have a gas set up, but have only used it as a torch
!
Boyce
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
You mean I could have given Randi a better grin in my RV-4 than I did
with my Pietenpol last July? That shameless Hussy!!!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then, attracting
women is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or
something similar to attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing
wingovers and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her
face...ugh those damn adrenalin junkies!
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:
(GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]"
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol
admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is
such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite
the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive
the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look
more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen
in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not p; e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ;
========================
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_________________________________________________
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d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
>Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides,
learning new building skills have been every bit< >as rewarding as any
other phase of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet
without knowing< >how/having welding equipment. <
Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment to use?
I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light 4130 type
materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a good manual /
training video available?
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Ryan,
I actually used the small struts on both. This is what Larry Williams used.
I thought the large ones were overkill. When you think about it, the Piet ha
s
redundancy in that regard, with 4 strut attach points vs. 2, when compared
to a cub or champ.
Dan
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I would suggest learning with a gas welding set for several reasons. One, it is
really a cheap setup, it is the most usefull tool you will ever buy,(welding,
cutting, heating, shaping, etc...) Easy transition to TIG welding. Even if you
tig weld Cro Molly, you will still need a torch setup to normalize the piece.
You do not need to normalize when gas welding due to heat saturation, which
is the only negative side of gas welding, the heat saturation tends to warp, but
a bit of management and this becomes negligable. You don't need an expencive
Henrob set, I welded my first fuse with a full sized Comet 3, now I use a medium
size torch, but there are some really nice micro torches that will save you
from having to wrap the hoses over your shoulders as you weld the 9 tube cluster
upside down.
And don't forget, you can weld cast, stainless, and aluminium with a gas welder
too.
To this day I prefer my gas welder if heat saturation isn't a problem, I feel like
I have more control of penitration, and perosity in the weld is never a problem
like tig welding.
Anyway, just my two cents, as you can tell, I love welding
Charley
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, HelsperSew(at)aol.com wrote:
> From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com <HelsperSew(at)aol.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 6:37 AM
> Michael,
>
> I would highly recommend that you open yourself to the
> possibility of
> learning to weld. As others have stated there are MANY
> parts on this wood airplane
> that need welding. I would hate the thought of every time I
> wanted something
> welded that I had to stop what I am doing and run this or
> that part out to
> the welder.......what a nightmare!
>
> Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And
> also besides,
> learning new building skills have been every bit as
> rewarding as any other phase
> of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the
> Piet without knowing
> how/having welding equipment.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All
> of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics check it
> out!
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
OK someone please explain to me the difference between gas welding and
brazing? Oxy-Acetylene is gas welding right?
Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
Don't worry, The piet is also a Chuck magnet.
Problem for you is the definiation of Chuck is usually a 50ish old married man
who does not have an airplane himself.
Blue Skies
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008 15:23
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
> Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then,
> attracting women
> is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or
> something similar to
> attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
> Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing
> wingovers
> and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her
> face...ugh those damn
> adrenalin junkies!
>
> Regards, Chrissi
>
> CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
> www.CozyGirrrl.com
> Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
> Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
> =====
> If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
> we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
> Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-
> RXD0)[ASRC]"
> <
>
>
> What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
> are 75+ years old and tend
> to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
> cute little airplane
> you have there sonny !"
>
> I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
> occasional wandering of ones
> mind from time to time.
>
> One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
> airplane, the hotter the owner's
> wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
> daughter than a date or wife.
> Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
> boating world, car world, and
> otherwise.
>
> Mike C.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics check it out!
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 3:22:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com writes:
You mean I could have given Randi a better grin in my RV-4 than I did with
my Pietenpol last July? That shameless Hussy!!!
Oh I think Randi has been bitten badly by the aerobatic bug, she's always
been an adrenalin junkie. I think she needs a ride in a Pitts =)
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
____________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of CozyGirrrl@
aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then, attracting women
is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or something simila
r
to attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing wingovers
and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her face...ugh those
damn adrenalin junkies!
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]"
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not p; e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; -
List Contribution Web Site ; ============
============
____________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is
prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
Norsk - Portuguese
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Technically, you've got two pieces of metal to connect.
If you connect them with the same kind of metal, that's welding (some creative
license for alloy difference applies here). It usually requires more heat and
better control of what your doing. You're melting the original edges of the metals
you're connecting, so the joint will be one piece of the same stuff.
If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing. Generally the
temperatures aren't high enough to melt the host metals, only the filler.
Oxy-actelene flame temperatures get high enough to weld steel and aluminum. I've
also brazed with my oxy-acetlyene torches.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 5:10 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>OK someone please explain to me the difference between gas welding and
>brazing? Oxy-Acetylene is gas welding right?
>Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing
Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing pipe/lead solder)
is the same thing...
So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger for welding rod,
or does it have to be 4130 rod?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
If you're planning on welding tubing, Aircraft Spruce sells small piles of short
cuts of assorted 4130 tubing. You can practice your notching and clusters.
I've got a set of bottles and a Henrob torch kit. Others prefer a Meco or Smith
torch for light work. Yer basic Victor torches are way too big for aircraft purposes.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: TOM STINEMETZE <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 4:27 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>
>>Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides, learning
new building skills have been every bit< >as rewarding as any other phase of
this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet without knowing<
>how/having welding equipment. <
>
>
>Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment to use? I
have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light 4130 type materials.
How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a good manual / training video
available?
>
>Tom Stinemetze
>McPherson, KS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bike.mike" <bike.mike(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
This has been covered at length in the archies, but it should be
re-sated every now-and-then.
4130, the chrome-moly alloy most used in airplanes, was formulated with
gas welding in mind.
4130 retains its strength without post-welding heat treatment when
welded with gas, allowing the amateur (like most of us on this list) to
achieve very strong and pretty welds with very inexpensive equipment.
Gas welding, using Oxy-Acetylene, is a great choice for the amateur
airplane builder.
Mike Hardaway
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Learning to weld |
Boyce,
Here's a very basic answer.
Yes, when people write gas welding, they are referring to welding using an
Oxy-Acetylene torch.
By definition, welding involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being
joined to a temperature slightly above their melting point. The pieces being
joined melt together (sometimes with added filler material) to become one.
Brazing involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being joined to a
temperature less than their melting point. A third element is added (the
brazing rod) which has a melting point lower than the metals being joined.
The brazing rod melts, and becomes adhered to the other parts, forming a
bridge between the two. The pieces being brazed do not melt together.
Brazing is basically like a high strength solder joint.
The general consensus regarding brazing and welding of Pietenpol structures
is that it is okay to braze a Pietenpol fuselage IF you build using 1020
steel tubing (as shown in the plans), but NOT if you use 4130 Chro-moly
tubing. The 4130 tubing will tend to become brittle when brazed. 4130 can be
successfully welded, but the welds need to be normalized (allowed to cool
very slowly, without any drafts) following welding.
Bill C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
uh oh....OK now I'm going to the garage when I get home to see what brand of
torch I have! I think it was a Lincoln. Do they make gas welders/torches? It
might be Victor though I hope not. What do I look for to determine what is
the "right" size? Tip size? Thanks!
Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
> OK someone please explain to me the difference between gas welding
and brazing? Oxy-Acetylene is gas welding >right?
>Boyce
Boyce:I quote from Wikipedia: Weldingis a fabrication process that joins
materials, usually metals or thermoplastics, by causing coalescence. This
is often done by melting the workpieces and adding a filler material to
form a pool of molten material (the weld puddle) that cools to become a
strong joint, with pressure sometimes used in conjunction with heat, or by
itself, to produce the weld. This is in contrast with soldering and
brazing, which involve melting a lower-melting-point material between the
workpieces to form a bond between them, without melting the workpieces.Hope
that helps.Tom StinemetzeMcPheson, KS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Tom:
Take a look at the Meco Midget Torch:
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.php
O got one on ebay a while back and I love it
I also have a Meco Aviator but I like the midget better
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_aviator_jet_adaptor.php
I have heard that the Henrob-Dillon-Cobra are the cat's meow, but have
never used one:
http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM STINEMETZE
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment to
use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light 4130
type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a good
manual / training video available?
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
| From: | "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com> |
[It has been my experience that welding with 4130 rod has failed in our competition
robots. (FIRST), by changing to a lower carbon rod there wasn't any failures.
Pieti Lowell
, .
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210632#210632
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Struts and supports |
| From: | "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com> |
[ The late Hosey Challis, builder of 8 Pietenpols,built his last Piet with round
4130 struts and faired them with balsa wood, fabric and dope. I flew this Pietenpol
for 12 years, sold it to a fellow in England, it's now in a show room.
By the way I could do spins, snaps loops slow-rolls etc. all with confident and
a bit slow.
Pieti Lowell
.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210637#210637
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 80 th at Oshkosh |
| From: | "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com> |
Just got info from Doc Moser, with the news about 80th , looks good , I'm In and
ready to go. Maybe from Brodhead to EAA. My Super B is looking good and running
perfect, not bad for a 20 year since overhauled Ford .
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210642#210642
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
As per my Mentor, (personal AP for Leo Laudenschlauger) told
me,,,you use mild filler rod to do your welding. Don't use 4130 filler
rod.
He uses mild filler rod do all his repairs.
His most recent was a Piper Vagabond.
I followed his rules,,, and nothing flew off yet
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing
Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing pipe/lead
solder) is the same thing...
So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger for welding
rod, or does it have to be 4130 rod?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Well, got home and checked, sure enough I have a Victor! Never fails if you
need two of something I only have one, or if you need red, I have every color
BUT red! Oh well, I'm still building my Mustang II, so it will be a while
before a Piet is in my life anyway....
Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Boyce,
I may not know how to weld, but I have found in my reading thus far that you
should never use coat hangars for your welding rod. There is no way to know
what the alloy of the metal is, and the paint on the coat hangar will
contaminate the weld. Budd Davisson agrees with Walt, saying to use a mild
steel rod with a copper coating (prevents it from rusting whilst being
stored).
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:32 PM, wrote:
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
> If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing
>
> Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing pipe/lead
> solder) is the same thing...
>
> So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger for welding rod,
> or does it have to be 4130 rod?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
You're not completely at a loss. You can still probably use your regulators and
hoses.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 6:54 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>Well, got home and checked, sure enough I have a Victor! Never fails if you
>need two of something I only have one, or if you need red, I have every color
>BUT red! Oh well, I'm still building my Mustang II, so it will be a while
>before a Piet is in my life anyway....
>
>Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Is there anyone making the steel parts or ribs or ?? for the Piet for
resale? I have an unmeasurable respect for you guys plans building. Occasionally,
I
think when the Mustang is complete, I will buy a completed Pietenpol, or
maybe an unfinished project to speed the process along. I have three young
children, and I barely get any time to build the Mustang(kit/quick build kit).
I
think when I get it done, I may be done with "projects"!
Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I don't understand. What does tank size have to do with it? Just means it is
longer between trips to the welding supply store right?
Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Learning to weld |
Here we go again.
Gas welded 4130 tubing joints don't need to be normalized. The torch weld spreads
enough heat to the adjacent tubing that the thermal gradient is ok without
it. TIG welds are a different story; the gas blanket allows the weld area to get
amazingly hot, but the gas blanket cools the surrounding area too much, causing
thermal stresses right next to the welds. This is where they tend to break
if they're not normalized.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 5:37 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>Boyce,
>
>Here's a very basic answer.
>
>Yes, when people write gas welding, they are referring to welding using an
>Oxy-Acetylene torch.
>
>By definition, welding involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being
>joined to a temperature slightly above their melting point. The pieces being
>joined melt together (sometimes with added filler material) to become one.
>
>Brazing involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being joined to a
>temperature less than their melting point. A third element is added (the
>brazing rod) which has a melting point lower than the metals being joined.
>The brazing rod melts, and becomes adhered to the other parts, forming a
>bridge between the two. The pieces being brazed do not melt together.
>Brazing is basically like a high strength solder joint.
>
>The general consensus regarding brazing and welding of Pietenpol structures
>is that it is okay to braze a Pietenpol fuselage IF you build using 1020
>steel tubing (as shown in the plans), but NOT if you use 4130 Chro-moly
>tubing. The 4130 tubing will tend to become brittle when brazed. 4130 can be
>successfully welded, but the welds need to be normalized (allowed to cool
>very slowly, without any drafts) following welding.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I guess I don't understand either. I've got a set of adapters that I can use for
the smaller acetylene bottles, but other than that, you're correct. I can burn
through my small bottles in half a day of cutting, but it's tough to buy a
set of larger bottles around here, and my leasing days are done. The swap for
my little bottles is conveniently close and painless.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 7:51 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>I don't understand. What does tank size have to do with it? Just means it is
>longer between trips to the welding supply store right?
>
>Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
see ebay Item number: 330280942484
steel tube GN1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pietenpol-GN-1-Aircamper-Aircraft-Quick-Bu
ild-Kit_W0QQitemZ330280942484QQihZ014QQcategoryZ63679QQssPageNameZWDVWQQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem
not mine just passing it on
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
Is there anyone making the steel parts or ribs or ?? for the Piet
for resale? I have an unmeasurable respect for you guys plans building.
Occasionally, I think when the Mustang is complete, I will buy a
completed Pietenpol, or maybe an unfinished project to speed the process
along.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
That's what I was referring to, yes.
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:51 PM, wrote:
> I don't understand. What does tank size have to do with it? Just means it
> is longer between trips to the welding supply store right?
>
> Boyce
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Hello Good People!!
Here are the photos I promised of the aluminum strut fittings. Any question
s
please ask.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
Boyce's comment about buying a completed Pietenpol caused me to remember
this. A Craigslist posting of a Piet for sale was posted to the Corvaircraft
list about two weeks ago. You can see the ad here:
http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/for/876001882.html
I called on it a few days after it showed up and spoke with the gentleman
who is selling it, a Mr. Carl Pitcher. His father built the aircraft. The
gentleman selling it is older, and health issues will preclude him from ever
doing anything with the aircraft. He couldn't remember exactly what year it
was completed. According to the FAA the airworthiness cert. was issued in
September of 1984. It was flown 31.5 hours, flying last in 1989, and was
originally powered by an A-65. Apparently his father decided he wanted to
convert it over to an automotive engine, and make some other modifications
he saw on various Piets at Brodhead. The A-65 was sold, and the airplane was
disassembled and uncovered, and has been in dry storage ever since. I
believe that was all the more that was ever done to it. He is asking $3,000
for the airplane.
As you can see in the ad, there is all sorts of other stuff for sale. A-65
engine mount, exhaust, instruments, etc etc. He also mentioned that he has
lots of tools for sale as well. He sent me about a half dozen or more
pictures of the airplane, from when it was together and now that it is
apart. I'll get them scanned in and post a link to them. Might be a good
opportunity to jump start your Piet project.
Ryan
(I don't know if it is still available, but the ad is still up so I'm
assuming so)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Prop carving How-To CD coming soon |
| From: | "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com> |
I'd buy one....
Patrick
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210688#210688
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Navratil" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
Thats great news, Lowell. I'll be ready to go too. Do you know if theres a
possibility of landing at Pioneer airport?
The radial Piet is back running great and the new prop preforms lots better.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 5:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 80 th at Oshkosh
>
>
> Just got info from Doc Moser, with the news about 80th , looks good , I'm
> In and ready to go. Maybe from Brodhead to EAA. My Super B is looking good
> and running perfect, not bad for a 20 year since overhauled Ford .
> Pieti Lowell
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210642#210642
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
| From: | "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com> |
At this time we have been told to get our hard surface landings up to snuff.And
steerable tailwheels should be in order for runway 18.
Large info coverage will come from all angles, so learn to fly in groups of 5.
With a leader, w/radio in each group. It sure will be super, so get those projects
finished and flying
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210698#210698
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Most, if not all, of this stuff has been hashed over a number
of times over the years.
One thing is DON"T braze 4130. Sometimes you can get away
with it but I've had it bite me and so have others. 4130 has an
open grain which means that the braze material goes into
that and fills it up. So? Well, when the joint cools down the
steel shrinks more than the brass. I had one nice little joint
sitting there cooling behind my back as I turned to turn off
the valves. Suddenly CRACK! big split in the tube. AC41.13
says not to braze. Now you know why. By the way, if it
helps, you can think of brazing as glueing the metals together,
same as glueing wood with your epoxy.
Another thing. 4130 gets it's high strength from heat treating.
As soon as welding temperatures are reached that goes down
the toilet. The heated area might as well be mild steel. That's
why you see those fancy fish mouth joints in AC 41.13.
Heat normalizing relieves stresses but does not restore any
strength.
I agree with Robot Man. I bought some of that 4130 rod
and now it has the same function as coat hangers. Great for
picture hangers and painting hooks. :-)
Haven't tried it with marshmallows however. :-)
http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleZenWelding.html
Clif
"Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty."
- Mark Twain, writer and humorist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld
>
>
> [It has been my experience that welding with 4130 rod has failed in our
> competition robots. (FIRST), by changing to a lower carbon rod there
> wasn't any failures.
> Pieti Lowell
>
>
> , .
>
>
>> [b]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210632#210632
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
7:53 PM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Thanks for up'ing the photos, Dan. A question arises: are you going to
install shims or spacers between the wing fittings and the strut attach
fitting to prevent fore and aft movement on the bolt, or is that not a
concern?
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:03 PM, wrote:
> Hello Good People!!
>
> Here are the photos I promised of the aluminum strut fittings. Any
> questions please ask.
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Dan;
I know nothing... I see nothing. However, looking at the pix of the connection
between the aluminum bar stock and the streamline strut, unless I'm mistaken
DJ Vegh used 3 or 4 bolts to make that same load transfer connection whereas you
have two bolts, AN-4? I will look through some of the aluminum tube airframe
plans that I have for different airplanes but I believe most of them show 3
or 4 bolts at this type of connection and the bolts are spaced about half the
distance that you have these located.
Again... I have no calcs, no other information other than I believe I've seen this
type of connection made with more load transfer fasteners and a closer spacing.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Oscar,
I am blind, deaf and dumb on this as well. However, amongst the pics of
Larry Williams' Piet (which Dan mentioned as using the same struts) at
WestCoastPiet, there is one close-up of the strut attach point.
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Larry%20Williams/Air_Venture_2003_trip_107.jpg
You can see there are only two bolts holding the bar stock attach fitting to
the strut. I don't know the size, but the nuts look roughly equivalent to
what Dan is using. The spacing is greater on Dan's, but your guess is as
good as mine as to what difference that would make. Dan stated that Larry's
Piet has been flying for years......DJ's Piet never took to the air while in
his custody. (I mean no disrepect to DJ, it's just a point of fact)
Not arguing your point, just showing what I ran across.
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:06 PM, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
> Dan;
>
> I know nothing... I see nothing. However, looking at the pix of the
> connection between the aluminum bar stock and the streamline strut, unless
> I'm mistaken DJ Vegh used 3 or 4 bolts to make that same load transfer
> connection whereas you have two bolts, AN-4? I will look through some of
> the aluminum tube airframe plans that I have for different airplanes but I
> believe most of them show 3 or 4 bolts at this type of connection and the
> bolts are spaced about half the distance that you have these located.
>
> Again... I have no calcs, no other information other than I believe I've
> seen this type of connection made with more load transfer fasteners and a
> closer spacing.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
never use coat hanger in an aircraft application, thats like using elmers paste
in constructing the fuselage. You don't have to use alloy rod, some do, some
dont, but you definately want to use a proper welding rod, coat hanger has too
many impurities and fizzes like a fuse, thats bad.
Charley
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com wrote:
> From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com <RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 8:32 AM
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard
> Time,
> ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
> If you connect them with a different kind of metal,
> that's brazing
>
>
> Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing
> pipe/lead solder)
> is the same thing...
>
> So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger
> for welding rod,
> or does it have to be 4130 rod?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
You can weld with a Victor, I built my first fuselage with a Comet 3 , witch is
a full size torch, the smaller ones make it lighter and easier, but it can be
done, just as well with a larger torch.
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com wrote:
> From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com <RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 8:40 AM
> uh oh....OK now I'm going to the garage when I get home
> to see what brand of
> torch I have! I think it was a Lincoln. Do they make gas
> welders/torches? It
> might be Victor though I hope not. What do I look for to
> determine what is
> the "right" size? Tip size? Thanks!
> Boyce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Maybe I presented this improperly. Victor makes some fine torches, and they're
good for heavier metals or straight welds.
When you're welding, you need to keep the flame at an angle somewhat perpendicular
to the line you're welding. This angle isn't super-critical, but inconsistent
torch handling will yield an inconsistent weld. In a straight line, the size
of the torch (and lines, for that matter) aren't really a problem; in fact,
a heavier setup might actually help some keep their hands from wobbling as much
while they're learning. But when you're welding tubing, besides keeping the
flame on the weld bead, you have to adjust your holding angle pretty radically
as you go around the tubing to keep the flame angle correct with respect to
the weld. The smaller the diameter of the tubing, the more radical this movement
becomes. I don't mean to make it sound impossible or even difficult; it's just
a skill that's alien to a lot of people.
I've had the Henrob torch pretty much since I started welding (although I do use
it with a set of heavy hoses), so I've had the luxury of using it on 4130. One
of its benefits is to be able to more-finely (than my Victor torches) control
the flame I want. I've welded fishmouths, clusters and rosebuds with it. I've
never tried welding 4130 clusters with my Victor torch. I don't know if I'm
agile enough to get it around the corners as fast as needed or do the finess
welds on the odd joints. With a little warm-up (I'm probably rusty right now)
I'd stack my 4130 Henrob welds up against anybody's, and they'd certainly survive
a DAR's inspection.
I suppose you can drive finish nails with an 8lb maul, too, but I choose not to.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 11:42 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>
>You can weld with a Victor, I built my first fuselage with a Comet 3 , witch is
a full size torch, the smaller ones make it lighter and easier, but it can be
done, just as well with a larger torch.
>
>
>--- On Tue, 10/28/08, RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com wrote:
>
>> From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com <RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 8:40 AM
>> uh oh....OK now I'm going to the garage when I get home
>> to see what brand of
>> torch I have! I think it was a Lincoln. Do they make gas
>> welders/torches? It
>> might be Victor though I hope not. What do I look for to
>> determine what is
>> the "right" size? Tip size? Thanks!
>> Boyce
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 10:03:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
rmueller23(at)gmail.com writes:
are you going to install shims or spacers between the wing fittings and the
strut attach fitting to prevent fore and aft movement on the bolt, or is th
at
not a concern?
Yes, I will do something there to take-up that space. I need some kind of
tie-down fitting there anyway so maybe that is a good place for it.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings- bolt number and |
spacing
Oscar,
I am interested in your opinion and others on this. At the time I remember
thinking through this and making a conscious decision, but now it eludes me
.
What is the shear strength of that whole system as it stands?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Learning to weld |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
Check with the Cozy Girrrls. Chrissi and Randi were at Brodhead
exploring the possibility of making Pietenpol parts. They make high
quality parts for other homebuilt aircraft, particularly for the Cozy.
http://www.cozygirrrl.com/
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
Is there anyone making the steel parts or ribs or ?? for the Piet
for resale? I have an unmeasurable respect for you guys plans building.
Occasionally, I think when the Mustang is complete, I will buy a
completed Pietenpol, or maybe an unfinished project to speed the process
along. I have three young children, and I barely get any time to build
the Mustang(kit/quick build kit). I think when I get it done, I may be
done with "projects"!
Boyce
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
I hope they will allow for us to land at Pioneer Airport. If so I will
probably make the trip. If not, I'll likely pass. Too far to fly with
today's gas prices to just be another homebuilt at OSH. This past year
I flew the Piet to Brodhead from NC but didn't bother flying another 90
miles to OSH.
Mine has a radio so I could lead a group into Pioneer.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pieti
Lowell
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh
At this time we have been told to get our hard surface landings up to
snuff.And steerable tailwheels should be in order for runway 18.
Large info coverage will come from all angles, so learn to fly in
groups of 5.
With a leader, w/radio in each group. It sure will be super, so get
those projects finished and flying
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210698#210698
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
Understood Bill. I have had a few metallurgy classes as well as the various
welding classes, but never used the skills and now don't really remember m
uch. I DO remember about aluminum and welding, as well as mechanical attach
ment reasoning. I'll either find a way around it, or find someone to weld f
or me.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Bill Church wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 3:15 PM
Michael,
-
You probably don't want to be welding the aluminum struts anyway. Many alum
inum alloys will lose a significant amount of strength in the area adjacent
to the weld. For instance,-with 6061-T6 (the alloy the Sky-Tek struts ar
e made of), the design stress (in bending) drops from 24,000 psi to 14,000
psi within 1 inch of the weld. That is a very significant loss (more than 4
0%). The extreme heat of welding changes the molecular structure of the alu
minum, resulting in localized reduced physical strength. The best approach
for structural aluminum parts is to use mechanical fastening, rather than w
elding.
But there are lots of other areas on this wooden-airplane-that will nee
d to be welded. So you will eventually either need to learn that skill, or
find someone else that has the skill to do it for you.
Steel struts are another story. No issues with loss of strength in the weld
areas with steel.
-
Bill C.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom machi
ned end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own is weldi
ng tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom mounts, bolt i
t together, done.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
I'm tentatively planning on Brodhead this year (from Atlanta!). I,
too, would be more inclined to go on up to OSH if we could land and
tie down at Pioneer Field. I don't mind the aspect of being "just
another homebuilt at OSH" (maybe I have low self-esteem? ;-)), but I
do think having a bunch of Piets tied down in front of the "Pietenpol
Field" hangar would be very cool!
Is there some way to approach EAA about this? I know that they have a
few activities on Pioneer Field that may be of concern (e.g., the
helicopter rides), but maybe something can be worked out.
>
>
>I hope they will allow for us to land at Pioneer Airport. If so I will
>probably make the trip. If not, I'll likely pass. Too far to fly with
>today's gas prices to just be another homebuilt at OSH. This past year
>I flew the Piet to Brodhead from NC but didn't bother flying another 90
>miles to OSH.
>
>Mine has a radio so I could lead a group into Pioneer.
>
>Jack Phillips
>NX899JP
>Raleigh, NC
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pieti
>Lowell
>Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:38 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh
>
>
>
>At this time we have been told to get our hard surface landings up to
>snuff.And steerable tailwheels should be in order for runway 18.
> Large info coverage will come from all angles, so learn to fly in
>groups of 5.
>With a leader, w/radio in each group. It sure will be super, so get
>those projects finished and flying
>Pieti Lowell
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210698#210698
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>
>or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
>please notify the sender
>
>Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese -
>Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
--
_____________________________________________________________
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri(at)emory.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
Maybe a phone call to the PR people at Ford would be in order. Tell them
that this will be the 80th anniversary of an originally Ford powered
homebuilt. What a rare promotional opportunity they have to illustrate the
effect Ford has had on our aviation heritage by having a couple Model A
powered Piets at Pioneer Field (along with all the other Piets that can make
it, Ford powered or not). Money talks at OSH, and lord knows they throw
around plenty of it up there. Or maybe we could find a John Deere
connection...hmm....
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Jeff Boatright wrote:
>
> I'm tentatively planning on Brodhead this year (from Atlanta!). I, too,
> would be more inclined to go on up to OSH if we could land and tie down at
> Pioneer Field. I don't mind the aspect of being "just another homebuilt at
> OSH" (maybe I have low self-esteem? ;-)), but I do think having a bunch of
> Piets tied down in front of the "Pietenpol Field" hangar would be very cool!
>
> Is there some way to approach EAA about this? I know that they have a few
> activities on Pioneer Field that may be of concern (e.g., the helicopter
> rides), but maybe something can be worked out.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
OK=2C so I'm blind-deaf-mute- and crazy. I guess it's from advancing age.
I checked DJ's site and found this:
http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-13-04.htm
Clearly=2C his setup uses two AN4 bolts to attach the wing strut to the fit
ting.
His method is pretty elegant in that it incorporates a 4130 bar that's thre
aded to accept
an adjustable fork end (presumably at the lower end of the strut). And as t
o prefabricated
metal parts=2C someone on this list has posted a couple of times in the las
t 2-3 months about
having prefab fittings available for sale but I can't remember who it was.
Like the man said=2C as I've gotten older I've finally gotten everything to
gether in my life.
Now if I could just remember where I put it...
Oscar Zuniga
Air camper NX41CC
San Antonio=2C TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Oscar,
I actually used DJ's idea at the bottom end of my struts, but I used the
7075 aluminum (with the J-3 forks)instead of the 4130.
The way I did it at the top end of the fittings do not lend itself to movin
g
the wing fore and aft. In my case it does not matter because I liked the wa
y
the airplane looks with the cabanes straight vertical.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
This is may not be what you were referring to, but I finally ran across this
piece o' paper this morning. Ken Perkins makes what appears to be just about
every piece of metal on the airplane. He had a price list with him at
Brodhead this year. I scanned it and posted the results on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/2981632152/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/2980775607/sizes/o/
Hopefully that's plenty readable. If not let me know and I'll scan at a
higher resolution.
Certainly not cheap, as it would set you back about $4600 if you purchased
all of the fuse, wing, and tail parts, but if you absolutely want to avoid
fabricating them yourself it's one way to go. Unfortunately there was no
contact information on the sheet. Maybe someone who has dealt with Ken could
provide that if need be. Hope that helps,
Ryan
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
> And as to prefabricated
> metal parts, someone on this list has posted a couple of times in the last
> 2-3 months about
> having prefab fittings available for sale but I can't remember who it was.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Just a note of clarification, Clif.
While 4130 IS heat-treatable, and can be strengthened considerably by heat
treatment, it is not usually sold in that condition.
Almost all 4130 tubing is sold in Normalized condition.
The following definition is from the Aircraft Spruce website: " Normalizing
consists of uniform heating to a temperature slightly above the point at
which grain structure is affected (known as the critical temperature),
followed by cooling in still air to room temperature. This produces a
uniform structure and hardness throughout."
In its normalized state, 4130 has an ultimate tensile strength of
approximately 90,000 psi. This is almost double that of 1020 steel (55,000
psi).
With proper heat treating, the strength of 4130 can be doubled again (up to
180,000 psi), but most homebuilt aircraft do not bother with this as the
Normalized condition is plenty strong (especially if the airframe was
originally designed to be built using 1020 steel).
It is my understanding that if 4130 is welded using Oxy-Acetylene, and
allowed to cool to room temperature in still air, the welds will not need to
be normalized, as they will achieve that state naturally. If the welding is
done in (or outside of) a shop where the air is moving, or the ambient air
is colder, the welds should probably be normalized, as a safety precaution.
I have also read that it is not really necessary to normalize thin-walled
(less than 1/8" wall) 4130 tubing or plate that has been TIG welded. The
heat produced by TIG welding is extremely intense and localized, thus
resulting in a very small Heat Affected Zone. Again these welds should be
allowed to cool to room temperature, in still air. This information,
however, is what I have read - not based on my own experience.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld
-->
Another thing. 4130 gets it's high strength from heat treating.
As soon as welding temperatures are reached that goes down the toilet. The
heated area might as well be mild steel. That's why you see those fancy fish
mouth joints in AC 41.13.
Heat normalizing relieves stresses but does not restore any strength.
Clif
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
That is comforting to know Bill since I TIG welded my motor mount and
then ala Tony Bingelis's suggestion, normalized with a torch, all the
weld clusters before taking it out of my angle iron jig. I normalized
the motor mount so I could do Lomcevak's and not worry about the motor
falling off.
I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now.
Very reasonable and if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint.
I was amazed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed
the filler rod, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work
who taught me over a few lunch hours. Gas welding ? I wouldn't try
to weld a lawn mower part with my lack of gas welding skills.
TIG is clean, easy, and very controllable even on those thin steel
halves of the control horns. Amazing.
If you get a chance at Oshkosh go to the Lincoln Electric welding
pavilion and hang around the instructors for an hour or so and you'll
learn
more than you can imagine. I thought welding was a mysterious skill
only known by powerful intellects from far away planets but like
anything
else...once you learn how to do it (like rib stitching), you find
yourself enjoying it, feeling more accomplished, and you can barter your
welding
skills for other favors when someone comes up to you with a broken lawn
mower part.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
I'll plug Sun 'n Fun for the workshops, too. Lincoln has pretty much taken over
the welding tent and I really haven't sat through their standard spiel, so I
can't really lay claim to how much you can learn as an individual (vs how much
they can sell) in the workshop, but I suspect they do a pretty good job. There
always seems to be an active contingent hanging around the TIG equipment, while
it looks like the gas stations don't get quite their due, but this is from
the persective of my workshop across the way, and we're generally too busy to
take the time to go over there for a while.
Lincoln always offers an attractive 'show special' price on their TIG machines,
notably the 175 and 185. I've looked at them but haven't gotten caught in the
right 'weak moment' enough to overcome my cheap tendencies and part with that
much money in one place for a tool that doesn't run as much as my oil heater
in the winter. But if you're looking for a good deal one one, waiting for Sun
'n Fun or OSH might be prudent if you want to be frugal and don't need it this
instant.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
>Sent: Oct 28, 2008 11:20 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: normalizing
>
>That is comforting to know Bill since I TIG welded my motor mount and
>then ala Tony Bingelis's suggestion, normalized with a torch, all the
>weld clusters before taking it out of my angle iron jig. I normalized
>the motor mount so I could do Lomcevak's and not worry about the motor
>falling off.
>
>I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now.
>Very reasonable and if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint.
>I was amazed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed
>the filler rod, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work
>who taught me over a few lunch hours. Gas welding ? I wouldn't try
>to weld a lawn mower part with my lack of gas welding skills.
>TIG is clean, easy, and very controllable even on those thin steel
>halves of the control horns. Amazing.
>
>If you get a chance at Oshkosh go to the Lincoln Electric welding
>pavilion and hang around the instructors for an hour or so and you'll
>learn
>more than you can imagine. I thought welding was a mysterious skill
>only known by powerful intellects from far away planets but like
>anything
>else...once you learn how to do it (like rib stitching), you find
>yourself enjoying it, feeling more accomplished, and you can barter your
>welding
>skills for other favors when someone comes up to you with a broken lawn
>mower part.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | prefab metal parts |
>Certainly not cheap=2C as it would set you back about $4600 if you purchas
ed
>all of the fuse=2C wing=2C and tail parts=2C but if you absolutely want to
avoid
>fabricating them yourself it's one way to go.
Or... buy the project that is for sale in Michigan for $3000 and not only d
o you get all the fittings=2C you get a partially completed airplane to go
with it and save $1600! Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio=2C TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
At Brodhead we wee told by someone that Wag-Aero has mild steel
streamline tubing for 1/3 t0 1/4 the price of 4130. I promptly called
them to find that they only had 2 sticks long enough, then some small
pieces. so much for that gold mine. To the lister who said he flew a
Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped
your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were?
Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? It,s been a
while since I checked, but it was just about as expensive to buy balsa
at a hobby store, as to buy 4130 streamline from a supplier. If any one
else has some suggestions on round 4130 size and thickness post the info
quickly. If having my water well overhauled today doesn't brake the
bank, I am going to shoot up to Kansas City for steel tubing and more
turnbuckles from B&B to horde for a future project. Thank you Leon
Stefan, Nickerson Ks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at |
Oshkosh
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
Ryan,
That is a BRILLIANT idea to approach EAA/FORD to sponsor (whatever that
might mean) the 80th Anniversary gathering of Pietenpols at Oshkosh.
Regarding landing at Pioneer Airport, I believe you would have to walk
on water for anyone to be allowed to land there with all the foot
traffic and
Kid Venture setup there but it is worth a try and inquiry.
I just rec'd a thick letter from Doc Mosher in the mail yesterday and
unless they are papers serving me a lawsuit or notice of lien, I'm
hoping
when I open it tonight that it might outline our plans to take a group
of Piets into Oshkosh in 2009. Bill Rewey was our lead pilot in 1999
and
he's agreed to do that again in 2009, Lord willing, and Doc Mosher has
ties at EAA and lives not very far away from EAA HQ. I'll post any
news here if that is what Doc's note was about. (Otherwise I'll write
from the prison computers:)
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net> |
>From the archives
Match: #1
Message: #15540
From: Doug413(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 19, 2001
Subject: Re: tube drag
In a message dated 11/18/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com
writes:
> I was working in the garage and was thinking about the cost of streamlined struts
and wondered what would be the horsepower penalty for going with round struts.
So after about an hour looking through my Fluid Dynamics book, of which
I haven't looked at in 10 years, I calculated the drag. My assumptions were
100mph at standard pressure and temperature (half the battle was figuring out
the density of air) of a 1" diameter tube and got about 0.15 horsepower per
foot of length. The coefficient of drag for a eliptical tube, which is close
to a streamlined tube, was about 1/3 of that. The sort-of Pietenpol-like aircraft
that I'm working on has 25' of tube and would take almost 4 HP to push a
round tube through the air. The streamlined tube would save about 2 or 3 horsepower.
Just thought y'all would be interested and please don't hold me to the
calculations.
Robert Haines > Murphysboro, Illinois
Robert, I used 1 1/4 dia x .049 wall round tubing and skip welded a steel V shaped
trailing edge to it. 102 hours on the ship now without jury struts; works
great. I got this idea from a Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter years ago.
Doug Bryant
--------
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210841#210841
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
Leon,
For a different approach to streamlining of round lift struts, check out
this website.
http://personal.southern.edu/~dascott/weedhopper/Streamline/fairings.html
This guy uses styrofoam rather than balsa. He wraps the styrofoam with Vinyl
tarp repair tape, rather than linen and dope - I imagine dope would not be
compatible with the styrofoam. Using styrofoam cut with a hot wire is a lot
cheaper than balsa, and should be pretty easy to get decent results.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leon Stefan
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lift struts
At Brodhead we wee told by someone that Wag-Aero has mild steel streamline
tubing for 1/3 t0 1/4 the price of 4130. I promptly called them to find that
they only had 2 sticks long enough, then some small pieces. so much for that
gold mine. To the lister who said he flew a Piet with round tube lift struts
with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped your name), do you happen to know what
size and thickness they were?
Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? It,s been a while
since I checked, but it was just about as expensive to buy balsa at a hobby
store, as to buy 4130 streamline from a supplier. If any one else has some
suggestions on round 4130 size and thickness post the info quickly. If
having my water well overhauled today doesn't brake the bank, I am going to
shoot up to Kansas City for steel tubing and more turnbuckles from B&B to
horde for a future project. Thank you Leon Stefan, Nickerson Ks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
Leon,
You probably heard Bill Rewey say that during his talk (I heard him mention
it at Brodhead and OSH). As I wrote a few days ago, I talked to Bill this
past weekend and confirmed the size. He said that their 1.78 x 1.06 x .049
1020 mild steel streamline tubing would work. It's part number L-544-007 in
their print catalog (didn't see it online).
I called Wag-Aero on Monday to confirm price and availability. The woman I
spoke with said the current price is $5.99 per foot (same as in the July '08
catalog), with a 10 ft minimum length. She said it is in stock. When they
told you they were almost out of the mild steel they may have been referring
to the 1025 tubing of the same dimensions listed as a clearance item in
their July '08 catalog.
That's what I know about that...
Ryan
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Leon Stefan wrote:
>
> At Brodhead we wee told by someone that Wag-Aero has mild steel
> streamline tubing for 1/3 t0 1/4 the price of 4130. I promptly called
> them to find that they only had 2 sticks long enough, then some small
> pieces. so much for that gold mine. To the lister who said he flew a
> Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped
> your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were?
> Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? It,s been a
> while since I checked, but it was just about as expensive to buy balsa
> at a hobby store, as to buy 4130 streamline from a supplier. If any one
> else has some suggestions on round 4130 size and thickness post the info
> quickly. If having my water well overhauled today doesn't brake the
> bank, I am going to shoot up to Kansas City for steel tubing and more
> turnbuckles from B&B to horde for a future project. Thank you Leon
> Stefan, Nickerson Ks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Y'know, I almost started to mention shaping the streamlines for round tubing out
of foam but I've seen first-hand what the Poly-Fiber (Stits) materials do when
they even get close to foam. Same as gasoline... the foam dissolves in an
instant. However, urethane foam is immune to those effects so any of the readily-available
urethane foams could be used to shape the streamlines on round tubing
and could then be covered with fabric and finishes and it wouldn't matter
if the Poly-Brush, Poly-Spray, or Poly-Tone got through the fabric. Or, using
latex house paint, everything would be completely compatible.
Some of the benefits of urethane foams: very light, very easy to shape (can even
be 'sanded' using a block of the same foam), and not affected by fuels or most
solvents. Even a wood guy can work with this stuff ;o) Drawbacks: the foam
is sort of fragile and is very dependent on the covering to provide protection
against dings, and is also sensitive to sunlight so applying silver or other
UV block is essential. Obviously, latex house paint would be perfect in that
department. I'd have to guess that balsa would be more forgiving with dings
but urethane is cheaper, just as light, and quite easy to shape and fill.
The gear legs on my Flying Squirrel are round tubing but I've infilled the vees with polystyrene foam and fiberglassed over the whole thing to make them look sort of like Cub gear. Photos are at http://www.flysquirrel.net/gear/gear.html and pictures of the final product are a couple of photos down on my home page at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net> |
Well today was another milestone day for my project. I have both ailerons mated
to the wings using aluminum piano hinges. I did a lot of checking and rechecking
to make sure everything was lined up properly before I started drilling. Everything
worked out great! Everything is in line and the hinges work freely.
It was very satisfying to slide the hinge pins back in and have everything fit.
Right now I have the hinges mounted with some temporary pan head screws with washers.
There seems to be plenty of clearance when I move the ailerons to the bottom
of their travel. I was wondering though what the typical down travel is
on the ailerons? Right now with the thicker headed temporary screws I am getting
about 3 3/4 inches.
Richard Schreiber
In cold Valparaiso Indiana
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "bike.mike" <bike.mike(at)comcast.net> |
Another drawback of urethane foam is the initial shaping. It can be
hot-wire cut but it takes a lot more heat than polystyrene and, worse, it
off-gasses some awful stuff, phosgene, I think. It needs to be cut in
really good ventilation if hot-wired. It does saw and sand very easily, but
leaves some very stubborn dust.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
[snip]
However, urethane foam is immune to those effects so any of the
readily-available urethane foams could be used to shape the streamlines on
round tubing and could then be covered with fabric and finishes and it
wouldn't matter if the Poly-Brush, Poly-Spray, or Poly-Tone got through the
fabric. Or, using latex house paint, everything would be completely
compatible.
>
> Some of the benefits of urethane foams: very light, very easy to shape
(can even be 'sanded' using a block of the same foam), and not affected by
fuels or most solvents. Even a wood guy can work with this stuff ;o)
Drawbacks: the foam is sort of fragile and is very dependent on the covering
to provide protection against dings, and is also sensitive to sunlight so
applying silver or other UV block is essential. [snip]
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
| From: | "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> |
For those curious about TIG welding of 4130, here is a link with some useful information
(including recommended filler rods, and whether normalization is required
for thin walled tubing welds):
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210924#210924
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: aileron travel |
Richard,
Congrats on the milestone. How 'bout some pictures?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Bill,
I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WEL
L
worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you hav
e
instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world
and
you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too wa
s
an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175
square
wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff
.
BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
Hi Richard,
Aileron travel should be able to go all the way down till the hinges
bottom out. In actuality, at least in my Pietenpol, the limiting factor
is the stick hitting my thigh, but it's pretty close to maximum
deflection of the aileron.
I remember Valparaiso, Indiana. Mike Cuy and I stopped there for fuel
on our way to Brodhead in 2005. Nice friendly airport, and as I recall
they served hotdogs for pilots flying ot OSH (or Brodhead)
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:29 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aileron travel
Well today was another milestone day for my project. I have both
ailerons mated to the wings using aluminum piano hinges. I did a lot of
checking and rechecking to make sure everything was lined up properly
before I started drilling. Everything worked out great! Everything is in
line and the hinges work freely. It was very satisfying to slide the
hinge pins back in and have everything fit.
Right now I have the hinges mounted with some temporary pan head screws
with washers. There seems to be plenty of clearance when I move the
ailerons to the bottom of their travel. I was wondering though what the
typical down travel is on the ailerons? Right now with the thicker
headed temporary screws I am getting about 3 3/4 inches.
Richard Schreiber
In cold Valparaiso Indiana
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
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or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Do NOT hot-wire urethane foams! Polyisocyanurate = cyanide! It's OK to hot-wire
polystyrene though.
What I did to create shapes was to take a block of wood that I could hold in my
hand, scribe the desired shape on the end with a marker or pencil, and cut the
shape out of the block with a bandsaw (stand the block on end). That shape
could be either the leading edge or trailing edge of a streamline (you'd be making
those pieces separately and sandwiching your round tube between them). A
round recess is easily sanded into the foam by wrapping a piece of dowel or PVC
pipe with sandpaper, to create the recess to receive your round strut.
With the shape cut out of the block, I glued coarse grit sandpaper into the recess
in the block with contact cement and then I had a hand sanding block that
I could run up and down the rough-shaped edge and form it to final shape. That's
how I did the edges of all the tail surfaces on the Squirrel, pretty quick
and pretty easy. I used the roll sandpaper that is used on floor sanding machines...
very coarse grit but you can pick your grit according to how much you
have to hog off.
And on a different subject, not trying to create a political controversy here,
but wouldn't it be cool if Sarah Palin showed up at OSH next year, stumbled onto
the 80th anniversary gathering, and asked for a ride in a Piet? Any takers?
Mikeee-? I'll bet she'd even be game for a flour bombing run ;o)
Oscar Zuniga, diving for my foxhole now...
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone public
yet? I'd like to read it.
One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of homebuilding
are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' for
an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or basement
(or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite construction comes
to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity controls, practical
cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing after TIG
welding.
People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time ratio,
being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also enjoy
the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut that last
optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the things
I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a professional.
Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good enough to
come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result and more willing
to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I can do it.
If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal environment
to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but it might
be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little Lincoln
machines.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>Bill,
>
>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WELL
>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you have
>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and
>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too was
>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 square
>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff.
>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also.
>
>Dan Helsper
>Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
>no registration required and great graphics check it out!
>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
Jim,
You can go to Mr. Swaim's web sight _www.tigdepot.net_
(http://www.tigdepot.net) and ask him the question directly about the need (or not) for
normalizing thin tube tig welds. I have read in numerous reliable places that
it is
NOT necessary.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the
lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see
the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , so that tells
me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile enough?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder
and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimu
m of
a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it.
They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you a
n
ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will
NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with som
eone
looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this
instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from s
omeone
who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hour
s
of frustrating trial and error.
All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go
right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want t
o do
on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones
you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn ou
t
then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone
public yet? I'd like to read it.
One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle r
oom'
for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or
basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidi
ty
controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not nor
malizing
after TIG welding.
People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time
ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also
enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcu
t
that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of
the
things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring
a
professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good
enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final resul
t
and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as
I
can do it.
If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-idea
l
environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but
it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little
Lincoln machines.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>Bill,
>
>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
WELL
>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
have
>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
world and
>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too
was
>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 17
5
square
>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
stuff.
>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
also.
>
>Dan Helsper
>Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites,
>no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
Figure it out. The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts
carry very little load on a Pietenpol). Assuming a gross weight of 1200
lbs, at 5 G's (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000
lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel. If the front struts carry 2/3 of the
load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each. To find the tensile
load in the strut you've got to figure the total load is the lift load
divided by the sine of the angle. Assuming your struts are at a 30
degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an
axial load of 2,000 lbs/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine. 5/16" screw threads,
rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each. I don't understand your reference
to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of
the threade portion you could deduce the stress involved. Assuming the
diameter is 5/16", the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000
psi.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate
for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about
45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the
order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the
45,000PSI tensile enough?
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kirk Huizenga <kirkh1(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I did my first welding ever last night. I purchased an Meco Midget off
ebay a while ago and just got some tips, ultra-lightweight hose, rod
for 4130, and TM1000 lens from tinmantech. I hooked up to a friend's
tanks and went to it on some flat .090 and .064 I had sitting around
I had a great time running some beads and doing a quick 90 degree weld
of two pieces. I took the piece home and shared it with my wife. "I
call it Eggplant Palm. Can you find a place to display it prominently
in the living room?", I asked whimsically. "I thought this was going
to productive not artistic!", she retorted.
Sometimes its hard to tell the difference in airplane building.
With still much to learn, do, and enjoy
KIrk
On Oct 27, 2008, at 3:27 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote:
> >Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also
> besides, learning new building skills have been every bit< >as
> rewarding as any other phase of this whole process. I personally
> would not attempt the Piet without knowing< >how/having welding
> equipment. <
>
> Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment
> to use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light
> 4130 type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a
> good manual / training video available?
>
> Tom Stinemetze
> McPherson, KS.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Congrats.
When I was taking welding classes, we were welding two 8"x2" strips of 3/8" steel
together. My wife was taking weaving classes at the same time. We joked about
our samples being 'refrigerator magnets', like the artwork your 5-year-old
brings home from kindergarden.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: Kirk Huizenga <kirkh1(at)gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 12:01 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>I did my first welding ever last night. I purchased an Meco Midget off
>ebay a while ago and just got some tips, ultra-lightweight hose, rod
>for 4130, and TM1000 lens from tinmantech. I hooked up to a friend's
>tanks and went to it on some flat .090 and .064 I had sitting around
>
>I had a great time running some beads and doing a quick 90 degree weld
>of two pieces. I took the piece home and shared it with my wife. "I
>call it Eggplant Palm. Can you find a place to display it prominently
>in the living room?", I asked whimsically. "I thought this was going
>to productive not artistic!", she retorted.
>
>Sometimes its hard to tell the difference in airplane building.
>
>With still much to learn, do, and enjoy
>KIrk
>
>On Oct 27, 2008, at 3:27 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote:
>
>> >Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also
>> besides, learning new building skills have been every bit< >as
>> rewarding as any other phase of this whole process. I personally
>> would not attempt the Piet without knowing< >how/having welding
>> equipment. <
>>
>> Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment
>> to use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light
>> 4130 type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a
>> good manual / training video available?
>>
>> Tom Stinemetze
>> McPherson, KS.
>>
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum o
r steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The
aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In you
r response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (?
)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 11:44 AM
Figure it out.- The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts car
ry very little load on a Pietenpol).- Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs
, at 5 G=92s (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs,
or 3,000 lbs per wing panel.- If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load,
they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each.- To find the tensile load in t
he strut you=92ve got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by
the sine of the angle.- Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to
the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lb
s/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
-
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine.- 5/16=94 screw threads
, rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each.- I don=92t understand your referen
ce to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of th
e threade portion you could deduce the stress involved.- Assuming the dia
meter is 5/16=94, the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi.
-
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
-
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for
the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on
up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , s
o that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile en
ough? - -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -_____________________
____________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
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rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Chrissi's welding notes, advice |
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
As a casual observation and opinion I would take note of anything that
Chrissi posts very seriously regarding aircraft hardware, fittings,
assemblies, heat treating, welding,
and otherwise since last summer at Brodhead I had an enjoyable
opportunity to meet her and Randi, as many of you did, but was given
a look at what you see below (a Cozy motor mount) fabricated from CG
Products, namely Chrissi. Absolutely outstanding craftsmanship
and quality.
http://www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraftparts.htm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th |
at Oshkosh
Can Chevy piets attend? ha ha
Shad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | how the heck do you rib stitch anyway ??????????? |
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
Years back when I faced covering my project I knew I would have to learn
the art of rib stitching. Turns out a few well-spent sessions
at the fabric tent at Oshkosh was all I needed along with some video
taping of the instructors showing other people how to do these
starter knots and finishing knots. I practiced a few times during the
week and finally got the hang of it and as it turned out I loved it !
I would come home after work, turn on my little tv in my single car
garage and watch the 5 pm news, 6 pm news, Entertainment Tonight,
then some of the Indians game, then the 10 pm news, all while
ribsitiching and it was great. Highly recommend wrapping your fingers
with masking tape where there are rub points and tightening
rawness...works like a charm.
Welding is the same way---a mystery, intimidating, something you just
want to put off but once you jump in, get taught, get some practice,
and get some good welds under your belt it is extreeeeeeeeeeemly
satisfying.....until your first takeoff or first severe turbulence:)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net> |
Among other comments, Leon Stefan wrote:
> To the lister who said he flew a
> Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped
> your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were?
> Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? (etc.)
A guy I used to know built a Heath parasol using round tubing for the
lift struts. Don't know the size; in any case, a Piet would need
something larger. The interesting part was the fairings: lumberyard blue
foam, sanded to shape, wrapped in fiberglass drywall tape, and epoxied.
Couldn't have been lighter or stiffer, and it's hard to imagine how it
could have been much cheaper. FWIW.
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
These are spherical rod ends (which I highly recommend for a Pietenpol,
since they allow the wing to be repositioned fore and aft to accommodate
CG positioning. Straight rod ends will not allow the struts to be at an
angle to the chord line). Radial refers to the sperhical bearing.
Since the strut is radial to the center of the bearing, a radial load in
the bearing translates to an axial load in the strut. The other load
specified for such pieces is an axial load in the bearing - in other
words, a load trying to push the spherical bearing out of the rod end in
the direction of the bolt axis. Confused???
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either
aluminum or steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just
tensile. The aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel
around 70,000. In your response, you state axial load, then say your
ends are rated radially. (?)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack
wrote:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 11:44 AM
Figure it out. The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts
carry very little load on a Pietenpol). Assuming a gross weight of 1200
lbs, at 5 G's (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000
lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel. If the front struts carry 2/3 of the
load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each. To find the tensile
load in the strut you've got to figure the total load is the lift load
divided by the sine of the angle. Assuming your struts are at a 30
degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an
axial load of 2,000 lbs/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine. 5/16" screw threads,
rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each. I don't understand your reference
to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of
the threade portion you could deduce the stress involved. Assuming the
diameter is 5/16", the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000
psi.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate
for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about
45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the
order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the
45,000PSI tensile enough?
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you
is prohibited.
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- Norsk - Portuguese
" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick.
Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the administrative types started
making noises that they'd rather have a food service curriculum than welding.
I backed off focusing on the certs and practiced all kinds of everything
they had. Never got to play with the plasma torch or weld plastic (they didn't
have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop.
Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in that class is
that it's emotionally harder to accept having to work on a lesser piece of equipment
at home. Specifically, the TIG machines I used were all water-cooled. I've
had my reservations about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little
quality time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job welding
replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-Camino, using a cheapie
MIG welder he borrowed. I should have known better. The duty cycle on it was
about .005 percent. I'd get about 2" of good bead then it would kick off on
a thermal check. That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back
or burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and jury-rigging
that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a MIG machine, but that
little monster was the devil incarnate. That job made me gunshy of even considering
anything less than professional-quality equipment.
That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. It's why a have
a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted sizes here. Granted I haven't
welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll have lots of little 'cluster art' and that
box will be long empty before I consider welding up anything my butt is going
to fly behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas torch.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder
>and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimum
of
> a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it.
>They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you an
>ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will
>NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with someone
>looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this
>instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from someone
>who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hours
>of frustrating trial and error.
>All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go
>right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want to
do
>on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones
>you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn out
>then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
>
>Regards, Chrissi
>
>CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
>www.CozyGirrrl.com
>Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
>Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
>=====
>If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
>we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
>Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
>In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
>
>Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone
>public yet? I'd like to read it.
>
>One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
>homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room'
>for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or
>basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
>construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity
>controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing
>after TIG welding.
>
>People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time
>ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also
>enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut
>that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the
>things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a
>professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good
>enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result
>and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I
>can do it.
>
>If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal
>environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but
>it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little
>Lincoln machines.
>
>Jim Ash
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
>WELL
>>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
>have
>>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
>world and
>>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too
>was
>>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175
>square
>>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
>stuff.
>>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
>also.
>>
>>Dan Helsper
>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
>favorites,
>>no registration required and great graphics check it out!
>>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>
>
>**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
>5 Travel Deals!
>(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the
email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will wo
rk. I am making my own designed center section wing mounts. With mine, the
solid ends-WILL allow adjustment side to side of the center section. (win
g tip to wing tip). The fore and aft adjustment will be made at the bottom
of the center section struts, at the fuselage. The angle of incidence will
be made by adjusting the length of the solid rod ends.
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 1:16 PM
These are spherical rod ends (which I highly recommend for a Pietenpol, sin
ce they allow the wing to be repositioned fore and aft to accommodate CG po
sitioning.- Straight rod ends will not allow the struts to be at an angle
to the chord line).- Radial refers to the sperhical bearing.- Since th
e strut is radial to the center of the bearing, a radial load in the bearin
g translates to an axial load in the strut.- The other load specified for
such pieces is an axial load in the bearing ' in other words, a load try
ing to push the spherical bearing out of the rod end in the direction of th
e bolt axis.- Confused???
-
-
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
-
Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum o
r steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The
aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In you
r response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (?
)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 11:44 AM
Figure it out.- The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts car
ry very little load on a Pietenpol).- Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs
, at 5 G=92s (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs,
or 3,000 lbs per wing panel.- If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load,
they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each.- To find the tensile load in t
he strut you=92ve got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by
the sine of the angle.- Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to
the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lb
s/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
-
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine.- 5/16=94 screw threads
, rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each.- I don=92t understand your referen
ce to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of th
e threade portion you could deduce the stress involved.- Assuming the dia
meter is 5/16=94, the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi.
-
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
-
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for
the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on
up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , s
o that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile en
ough?-- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -___________________
______________________________ -This message is for the designated recipi
ent only and may contain privileged, proprietaryor otherwise private inform
ation. If you have received it in error, please notify the senderimmediatel
-Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese - -" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -
-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronic
s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution -_____________________________
____________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
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notify the sender
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rohibited.
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orsk - Portuguese
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ken Chambers" <ken.riffic(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Doug
This sounds like a pretty good way to go.
Can you tell us more about the steel v trailing edge you welded on to the
lift struts.
Ken in Austin, making hundreds of gussets for wing ribs.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Catdesigns wrote:
>
> >From the archives
>
> Match: #1
> Message: #15540
> From: Doug413(at)aol.com
> Date: Nov 19, 2001
> Subject: Re: tube drag
>
> In a message dated 11/18/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com writes:
>
> > I was working in the garage and was thinking about the cost of
> streamlined struts and wondered what would be the horsepower penalty for
> going with round struts. So after about an hour looking through my Fluid
> Dynamics book, of which I haven't looked at in 10 years, I calculated the
> drag. My assumptions were 100mph at standard pressure and temperature (half
> the battle was figuring out the density of air) of a 1" diameter tube and
> got about 0.15 horsepower per foot of length. The coefficient of drag for a
> eliptical tube, which is close to a streamlined tube, was about 1/3 of
> that. The sort-of Pietenpol-like aircraft that I'm working on has 25' of
> tube and would take almost 4 HP to push a round tube through the air. The
> streamlined tube would save about 2 or 3 horsepower. Just thought y'all
> would be interested and please don't hold me to the calculations.
>
> Robert Haines > Murphysboro, Illinois
>
>
> Robert, I used 1 1/4 dia x .049 wall round tubing and skip welded a steel V
> shaped trailing edge to it. 102 hours on the ship now without jury struts;
> works great. I got this idea from a Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter years ago.
>
> Doug Bryant
>
> --------
> Chris Tracy
> Sacramento, CA
> WestCoastPiet.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210841#210841
>
>
--
Ken Chambers
512-796-1798
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
For what it's worth, according to drawings published in a 1987 edition of
the Experimenter, The Heath LN Parasol (with the N-braced wings) apparently
used 1 1/8" x .035" (SAE 1015) tubing for the front and rear lift struts,
and 1 1/4" x .035" for the center (diagonal) strut. Remember, though, that
the Heath is a much smaller plane than the Pietenpol (this fact becomes
really apparent if you happen to walk up to Chris Price's Heath that is
based at Brodhead. That is a tiny airplane)
Bill C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Gee, welding sure sounds like it is work and may take some skill. That makes the
deal I just did sound great. In exchange for a $10 military surplus maid cart
(you know the maids push them around with a trash bag on one side and a dirty
linnen bag on the other with cleaning supplies and sheets in the middle) hanger
neigbors Steve and Freda (mentioned by Oscar earlier) are going to practice
welding on a swiveling jack onto my old plymouth pickup bed trailer.
The weld does not have to be particularly pretty (or pretty at all) so it will
be great for Steve to learn/practice welding. The price is right for me also.
BTW, Oscar is getting too snooty for his own good. He turned down one of these
maid carts. Said he does not want to clutter up his hangers (yes two hangers!)
on he keeps his Peit in and one he is building anouther plane in.
Blue skies
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 13:02
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
> I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick.
Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the
> administrative types started making noises that they'd rather have
> a food service curriculum than welding. I backed off focusing on
> the certs and practiced all kinds of everything they had. Never
> got to play with the plasma torch or weld plastic (they didn't
> have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop.
>
> Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in
> that class is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to
> work on a lesser piece of equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG
> machines I used were all water-cooled. I've had my reservations
> about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little quality
> time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job
> welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-
> Camino, using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have
> known better. The duty cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get
> about 2" of good bead then it would kick off on a thermal check.
> That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back or
> burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and
> jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a
> MIG machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That
> job made me gunshy of even considering anything less than
> professional-quality equip!
> ment.
>
> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
>
> Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all.
> It's why a have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted
> sizes here. Granted I haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll
> have lots of little 'cluster art' and that box will be long empty
> before I consider welding up anything my butt is going to fly
> behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas
> torch.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM
> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
> workshops>
> >The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the
> homebuilder
> >and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go
> take a minimum of
> > a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize
> yourself with it.
> >They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will
> make you an
> >ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something
> you will
> >NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but
> also with someone
> >looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say
> "try this
> >instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in
> technique from someone
> >who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster
> than many hours
> >of frustrating trial and error.
> >All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of
> course go
> >right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what
> you want to do
> >on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that
> simulate the ones
> >you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they
> will turn out
> >then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
> >
> >Regards, Chrissi
> >
> >CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
> >www.CozyGirrrl.com
> >Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
> >Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
> >=====
> >If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
> >we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
> >Please do not make your spam problem ours.
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>
> >ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
> >
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <
> >
> >Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone
> >public yet? I'd like to read it.
> >
> >One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
> >homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room'
> >for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or
> >basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
> >construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity
> >controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing
> >after TIG welding.
> >
> >People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time
> >ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also
> >enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut
> >that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of
the
> >things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring
a
> >professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good
> >enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result
> >and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as
I
> >can do it.
> >
> >If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal
> >environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but
> >it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little
> >Lincoln machines.
> >
> >Jim Ash
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >>From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
> >>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
> >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >>
> >>Bill,
> >>
> >>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
> >WELL
> >>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
> >>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
> >have
> >>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
> >world and
> >>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too
> >was
> >>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
> >>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175
> >square
> >>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
> >stuff.
> >>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
> >also.
> >>
> >>Dan Helsper
> >>Poplar Grove, IL.
> >>
> >>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
> >favorites,
> >>no registration required and great graphics check it out!
> >>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
> >5 Travel Deals!
> >(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jack et al.,
Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some
other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and
experience that will help me answer them.
Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits
into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on
Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage
is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet
may be from a Cub.
My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without
causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression
loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as
long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads
of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do
side loads become an issue?
Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does
anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be
unscrewed?
I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit
more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.
Thanks,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Jim Ash wrote:
> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
by then, and he's likely to know.
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Mike,
The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing,
or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile
strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the
cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds
per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry obviously is
dependant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the
lower tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area than steel,
with the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry
the same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference
will be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the
aluminum one.
If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fittings
out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). My
main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load,
provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that
cross-sectional area is practical is another question.
Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being
as strong as its weakest link.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the
email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will
work.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Fess up Oscar, what's the the other plane you're building? Enquiring minds...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Dear Jim,
Contact TIGdepot.net and he'll fix you right up with a very nice compact
water cooled TIG handpiece with a flexible head and 12 or 25 ft hoses and
adapter. All the consumables are the same as the handpiece that comes with
the
welder. The added bonus is that the three flex tubes coming out of it are v
ery
flexible compared to the regular single cable, this means much less fatigue
and easier maneuverability... it changed my life!
For the kind of welding you would be doing (up to 1/8") all you need is a 5
gallon bucket of water and a fountain pump from Harbor Freight. All you will
get is a dribble (with 25 ft hoses that's all you will get). I do a lot of
production welding with this setup and thin goatskin gloves and never notice
the
handpiece getting warm.
Have fun, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 12:49:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified
stick. Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the administrative ty
pes
started making noises that they'd rather have a food service curriculum tha
n
welding. I backed off focusing on the certs and practiced all kinds of
everything they had. Never got to play with the plasma torch or weld plasti
c (they
didn't have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop.
Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in that class
is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to work on a lesser piece
of
equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG machines I used were all
water-cooled. I've had my reservations about air-cooled machines, but if I
got to spend
a little quality time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare
job welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-Camino,
using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have known better. The dut
y
cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get about 2" of good bead then it w
ould
kick off on a thermal check. That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it
was
bucking back or burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting
and jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a MIG
machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That job made me
gunshy
of even considering anything less than professional-quality equipment.
That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. It's why a
have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted sizes here. Granted I
haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll have lots of little 'cluster a
rt'
and that box will be long empty before I consider welding up anything my bu
tt
is going to fly behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a
gas torch.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder
>and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a
minimum of
> a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with
it.
>They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you
an
>ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will
>NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with
someone
>looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this
>instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from
someone
>who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many
hours
>of frustrating trial and error.
>All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go
>right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want
to do
>on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the
ones
>you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn
out
>then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
>
>Regards, Chrissi
>
>CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
>www.CozyGirrrl.com
>Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
>Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
>=====
>If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
>we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
>Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
>In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
>
>Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has
gone
>public yet? I'd like to read it.
>
>One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
>homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle
room'
>for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage o
r
>basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
>construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and
humidity
>controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not
normalizing
>after TIG welding.
>
>People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the
work/time
>ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to
also
>enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not
shortcut
>that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most o
f
the
>things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hirin
g
a
>professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm goo
d
>enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final
result
>and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good a
s
I
>can do it.
>
>If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a
less-than-ideal
>environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas,
but
>it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those littl
e
>Lincoln machines.
>
>Jim Ash
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
>WELL
>>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
>have
>>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
>world and
>>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he to
o
>was
>>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln
175
>square
>>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
>stuff.
>>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
>also.
>>
>>Dan Helsper
>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
>favorites,
>>no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
>>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>
>
>**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's
Hot
>5 Travel Deals!
>(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JERRY GROGAN" <jerry(at)SKYCLASSIC.NET> |
| Subject: | Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
Jim
We Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I
don't think you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on
an engine mount. We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark
and bring the entire joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it
cool by itself.
Good luck
Jerry Grogan
Prairie City, IA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly
head.
If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of
the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each
Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the
power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the
time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of
taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are
pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious
entry level welders.
In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening,
I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary.
The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials
though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting
(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever.
Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a
call, they know what EAAers need.
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies
Jim Ash wrote:
> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
by then, and he's likely to know.
Owen
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Chrissy,
Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave
machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!!
Drat!!! OH well..................
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Dan,
The water cooled head is nice but unless you do a lot of high amp long duty
cycle welding you can wait awhile, get a heavier glove =)
The best news is you bought a darn good welder to begin with. Go Red! We own
three Lincoln welders.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 6:17:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
HelsperSew(at)aol.com writes:
Chrissy,
Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave
machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!!
Drat!!! OH well..................
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
____________________________________
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. _Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel
Deals!_ (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any experience with any of those kits
that will convert your stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of
the sting out of the price, and gives me a little more versatility to be able
to do either stick or TIG.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>
>
>Jim Ash wrote:
>> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
>Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
>be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
>particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
>would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
>gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
>
>When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
>Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
>by then, and he's likely to know.
>
>Owen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Well, the nice part about rod ends, they come in all kinds of sizes, shapes, ball
configurations, lubricated, solid, etc. If you are worried about the screw
length being to short, you may be able to find the same size rod end, just longer
on the threads, or one that is threaded up to the head. I would guess, as
with nuts and bolts, if you can verify that you have more then 2-4 full threads
engaged, you should be OK for the straight tension loads. No clue on side loads.
Personally, I plan to use solid rod ends...no ball...and keep them as short
as I can, but still have about an inch of adjustment.
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Jeff Boatright wrote:
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 2:48 PM
Jack et al.,
Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some
other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and
experience that will help me answer them.
Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits
into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on
Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage
is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet
may be from a Cub.
My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without
causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression
loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as
long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads
of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do
side loads become an issue?
Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does
anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be
unscrewed?
I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit
more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.
Thanks,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Understood. My delema is this: I can get steel ends or aluminum ends, both
solid and both about the same size...1/4" hole, 1/4-20 threads, 1-1/2" long
threaded shaft, etc. The steel ends are cheaper, but I am sure they weigh
more. They are rated at 75,000 PSI tensil, the aluminum is rated at 45,000.
How do I figure if the 45,000 is enough?
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Bill Church wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:05 PM
Mike,
-
The overall-load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing
, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile
strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-s
ectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per sq
uare inch, so the load (in pounds) that -it can carry obviously is depend
ant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the lowe
r tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area-than steel, w
ith the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry th
e same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference wi
ll be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the alum
inum one.
If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fitting
s out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). M
y main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load,
provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that cross-section
al area is practical is another question.
Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only bein
g as strong as its weakest link.
-
Bill C.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the
email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will wo
rk.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
One of the questions I meant to ask is if I normalize after TIG welding, does it
hurt anything besides wasting some of my time? Is there a structural down side
to normalizing or is it just the extra work that seems to be the issue?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: JERRY GROGAN <jerry(at)skyclassic.net>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 4:36 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
>
>Jim
>
>We Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I don't think
you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on an engine mount.
We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark and bring the entire
joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it cool by itself.
>
>Good luck
>Jerry Grogan
>Prairie City, IA
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
I tend to do a lot of welding off and on, and on a wide variety of stuff. I've
got a cast iron job for a friend here right now waiting for me to be allowed out.
The rod alone prices out at about $7 a stick, but it's still cheaper for him
than having the part remade.
I'm not really looking for a unit to get me through an airplane. I'm looking for
a unit that I can use for everything, including an airplane.
I never really got out of the workshop at SNF this last year; been meaning to just
to see the show sometime.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:59 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>
>AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly
>head.
>If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of
>the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each
>Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the
>power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the
> time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of
>taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are
>pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious
>entry level welders.
>In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening,
>I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary.
>The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials
>though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting
>(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever.
>Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a
>call, they know what EAAers need.
>
>Regards, Chrissi & Randi
>
>CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
>www.CozyGirrrl.com
>Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
>Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
>==============================
>If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
>we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
>Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
>In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies
>
>Jim Ash wrote:
>> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
>Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
>be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
>particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
>would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
>gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
>
>When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
>Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
>by then, and he's likely to know.
>
>Owen
>
>
>**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
>5 Travel Deals!
>(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Adequate rod ends |
I think we need some clarification of what's involved with
determining the actual strength of the part.
There are four areas in question on this fitting. What has
to be determined is which area is the smallest. That's
going to be the weakest therefore the one that determines
if the part is strong enough. This "part" is made up of two
pieces, the shank and the base that's welded or bolted to
the strut.
As you can see in pic 1 there are four "areas" involved.
D1 is the solid portion of the threaded shank, D2 is the
shank bit between the threads and head, which may be
smaller than D1, A is the area of the head cross section
that holds the ball and the thread area is the cross section
area of the threads themseves.
If either the shank or base is stronger than the other, ie
one is steel and the other aluminum, then the weaker is
the determining strength.
In pic 3 area 1 is that at the base of the threads of either
or both base and shank. Area two is 1/2 way up the thread.
In pic 5 the base material is the stronger. therefore the
threads will strip off the shank.
In pic 6 both base and shank are the same material and
strength so will most likely shear half way up the threads.
If either D2 or A are smaller in area than the thread area
that you've calculated then one other consideration will
come into play when the thing is in place on the plane
and you fiddle with it to make adjustments. If you have to
screw the shank out of the base then at some point the
threaded portion will become the weak link regardless
of your initial calculations.
Myself, I have four large, robust fork ends that will fit over
the standard plates sticking out the Jenny style LG
fittings.
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php?pid=9039
Now you have to get out the ol' calculator and do your own
arithmatic. :-)
Clif
"You are never given a dream without also being given the power to make
it true. You may have to work for it, however."~ Richard Bach
Mike,
The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or
tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is
the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important
- the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given
in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry
obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional (in square inches).
Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only
being as strong as its weakest link.
Bill C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com wrote:
> AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its
> ugly head.
Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering
options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only
firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the
time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net.
Owen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
Sorry Owen, I meant that to be tongue in cheek but I think it came out too
emphatic. And thank you for the additional reference site too.
We have seen people usually have a strong preference for Red or Blue, I have
found in a round about way that most people whose first experience with
welding was in school are Blue people because Blue makes schools an offer that
Red cannot compete with, its that simple, in almost any application people
prefer the tools they were taught with; good marketing.
I agree that good research is important before any major purchase. Sort of
like plasma cutters, after investigating what was the best for our needs we
decided we cannot afford it (yet)(and its not Red), there was just no sense in
buying anything less.
This is truly like learning to play a piano; the concept is simple enough
but to master it takes years of practice, you can do it well if you take a class
and practice a lot.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 9:21:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies
CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com wrote:
> AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its
> ugly head.
Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering
options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only
firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the
time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net.
Owen
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start, meaning you touch the tungston
tip to the metal you are welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because
it contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the weld. Also they
don't have a built in gas solinoid for the argon, you turn on the gas, weld,
then turn off the gas, very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to turn
it off.
I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup, it's cheap and the most versitile
tool in your shop. But if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for
$600 Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it is High frequency
start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100% duty, and 180 amp 80%. You should
be able to get the same rig in the states for $350 new.
Charley
--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash wrote:
> From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
>
>
> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any
> experience with any of those kits that will convert your
> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the
> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more
> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.
>
> Jim Ash
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >
>
> >
> >Jim Ash wrote:
> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.
> Maybe next April.
> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They
> both are supposed to
> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal
> Arc 185TSW in
> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low
> end, where we
> >would be working. Can't verify that from
> experience, as I keep trying to
> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get
> there.
> >
> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and
> ask Ernie
> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better
> model might come along
> >by then, and he's likely to know.
> >
> >Owen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe(at)calply.com> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
The following may supply your answer (from "Mechanic's Toolbox,
www.sacskyranch.com):
"If you are using "high strength" bolts in tension (pulling the bolt
lengthwise) then one needs a "high strength" nut to prevent stripping of the
nut threads.
Good Design Practice is to have a sufficiently strong nut so that the first
failure is a broken bolt and not a stripped thread. A broken bolt is
relatively easy to notice and replace. A stripped thread occurs at the first
thread where the stress is highest and progresses along the thread leading
to complete failure. The bolt may remain in place unnoticed in a weakened
state.
When the bolt is in tension the threads are in shear. To meet the above
requirement the nut's shear strength should be equal to the bolts shear
strength (same material).
Sometimes this is not possible, such as when threading into a tapped hole
and this is where Thread Engagement Length becomes important. More engaged
threads mean more shear stress area to take the load. So our second Good
Design Practice is that the "length of engagement should be long enough that
thread failure will not occur before the bolt breaks."
Generally, bolts can only withstand half as much shear as tension. This
means that the thread shear area needs to be at least double the bolt's
tensile stress area. Minimum Engagement Length is then the length of
engagement that the shear area is twice the bolts tensile stress area.
Length of Engagement works up to a point. At some point more engagement
doesn't increase shear strength because shear stress is not evenly
distributed in the nut. The first threads take most of the load. Adding
extra engagement may not significantly increase the load capacity."
As you probably know, when using a threaded rod & tube, you would measure
back .75"-1" and drill a "sight hole" in the tube. This way you know that
your threaded rod is at least as deep as the sight hole.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Jack et al.,
Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some
other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and
experience that will help me answer them.
Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits
into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on
Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage
is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet
may be from a Cub.
My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without
causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression
loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as
long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads
of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do
side loads become an issue?
Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does
anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be
unscrewed?
I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit
more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.
Thanks,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
I'm set (with the exception of a Meco or Smith torch, and maybe a nice set of two-stange
regulators in a weak moment) for oxy-acetylene, but I do agree with
your comments as to its versatility. One of the down sides of it for me is that
I don't have a garage (working on a shop building), and I can't do it in the
basement without (justifiable) complaints from my wife about stinking the whole
house up.
For the record, I have no allegiance to either Red or Blue. I've used both happily.
Besides, I'm registered as an independent.
Some of my requirements for a TIG system are 1)HF - I want a versatile tool. One
that will do aluminum, stainless, and maybe even the exotics if I ever had
a call for it. Not being able to do aluminum or stainless would be a deal-breaker
for me, even for a cheapie add-on system. I can do aluminum and stainless
with my torches now, but it's a bit of a pain and requires more finess (and more
flux). 2) Foot-pedal control. Being able to adjust my heat on the fly is a
big deal for me with a TIG setup. If I have to stop a good pass to fiddle with
some knobs, I might as well not bother at all. 3) Pre- and Post- flow control.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised the add-ons don't have a solenoid valve, but
I guess I was taking it for granted they did.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2008 12:23 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>
>
>I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start, meaning you touch the tungston
tip to the metal you are welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because
it contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the weld. Also they
don't have a built in gas solinoid for the argon, you turn on the gas, weld,
then turn off the gas, very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to
turn it off.
>
>I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup, it's cheap and the most versitile
tool in your shop. But if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for
$600 Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it is High frequency
start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100% duty, and 180 amp 80%. You
should be able to get the same rig in the states for $350 new.
>
>Charley
>
>
>--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash wrote:
>
>> From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
>>
>>
>> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any
>> experience with any of those kits that will convert your
>> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the
>> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more
>> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.
>>
>> Jim Ash
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
>> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
>> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
>> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>> >
>>
>> >
>> >Jim Ash wrote:
>> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.
>> Maybe next April.
>> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They
>> both are supposed to
>> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal
>> Arc 185TSW in
>> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low
>> end, where we
>> >would be working. Can't verify that from
>> experience, as I keep trying to
>> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get
>> there.
>> >
>> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and
>> ask Ernie
>> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better
>> model might come along
>> >by then, and he's likely to know.
>> >
>> >Owen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan) |
Thanks to all who replied to my question about round strut size fairings
etc. The bad news is that having my water well overhauled did brake the
bank, so my buying trip is off for a while. Since it is now cold weather
I'll probably hold off until next spring. I can digest this info for a
while....... Ken--, The post from Doug Bryant was from the past. He sold
his piet several years ago to someone around St. Louis and I doubt if he
watches the list any longer. He and Chuck Ganzer are friends and worked
together on Chucks Piet, so maybe Chuck can give some details. I saw
Dougs struts and it's a good idea what he did. He ran the idea past
several engineers at Beechcraft and they all gave him the thumbs up.
Also they said it was strong enough to not need jury struts, and Doug
did not install them. My only problem with his set up was weight. As the
post reported, the struts were 1 1/4" x .049. Pretty hefty. Then he
added the steel fairing to the back side. I don't know the size or
thickness of the steel he used. As i recall the sides were around 1 1/2
in. so he would have taken a piece of 3'' flat to a shop and had it bent
into a V then every few inches, ran a weld as he welded it to a a strut.
Since I'm using the Model A, I have become a stickler for light weight.
I was planing to brig a caliper to Brodhead and measure the thickness of
the original strut material used on the Alan Rudolph Piet, but forgot to
take it. Has anyone ever micked those struts and know the thickness? I
bought 3/8 turnbuckle forks at B&B for strut adjustment ends. Less than
$2.00 ea. AS&S says they are rated at 20K ea. Should hold an 80k Piet,
right? By the way, neither Chuck or Doug put adjustments on the lower
strut ends and said they never regretted it. Leon S. Airplane and water
well poor in Ks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Guys,
Thanks for all of the responses. I see that I have done a poor job of
explaining my question. I have attached a modification of Clif's
drawing that shows my concern: As the rod end is unscrewed from the
threaded portion of the strut, the rod shaft takes on "strut"
function and experiences all the loads that the strut does, including
side loads. How far out can the rod be unscrewed before it weakens
the overall function of the strut assembly?
Thanks again for all the replies,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net> |
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached
some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included
a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and
tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This
idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same
method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount
the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have
mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like
the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank
in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete.
My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy
wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight
axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might
be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going
to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around
Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All
of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines
at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech
counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and
also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration
of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AMsafetyC(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lmforge(at)earthlink.net writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I
attached some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also
included a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood
block and tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and
perpendicular. This idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well.
This is
the same method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge
attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges,
mount the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables
I have mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more
like the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel
tank in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section
is complete. My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with
the guy wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the
straight axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically
that might be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also
going to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild
it. Around Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on
construction. All of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild
all of the
engines at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our
local EAA tech counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding
a
Piet and also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the
restoration of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
_lmforge(at)earthlink.net_ (mailto:lmforge(at)earthlink.net)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make it out of.
I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who does racing tanks.
His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he did was around $500
just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but since I will also burn auto
fuel I am concerned about solvent resistance. When I get time I'll go through
all of the posts to the web site and make a decision, unless someone would like
to chime in now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 10/30/2008 2:28:16 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lmforge(at)earthlink.net
writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached
some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included
a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and
tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This
idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same
method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount
the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have
mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like
the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank
in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete.
My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy
wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight
axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might
be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going
to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around
Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All
of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines
at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech
counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and
also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration
of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
If you are going to do composite you can use vinyl-ester resin as that
is resistant to ethanol now comon in auto fuels
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vinylester.php
on the other hand if you make it out of aluminum you can cut all the
pices yourself and just take them to someone to weld up, should save a
bit on labor cost that way.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make
it out of. I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who
does racing tanks. His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he
did was around $500 just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but
since I will also burn auto fuel I am concerned about solvent
resistance. When I get time I'll go through all of the posts to the web
site and make a decision, unless someone would like to chime in now.
Rick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
With a DC rig you can weld everything but Aluminium. Steel, stainless, brass, and
copper are no problem, but you need AC for aluminium. I never was a fan for
the foot control, doesn't do you much good when welding a fuselage, many times
I only had one foot on the floor so foot control would have useless, they make
a thumb control that I would suggest, if your spending the money for a AC/DC
remote TIG, you might as well spend the extra hundred and get the thumb control.
--- On Fri, 10/31/08, Jim Ash wrote:
> From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 12:12 AM
>
>
> I'm set (with the exception of a Meco or Smith torch,
> and maybe a nice set of two-stange regulators in a weak
> moment) for oxy-acetylene, but I do agree with your comments
> as to its versatility. One of the down sides of it for me is
> that I don't have a garage (working on a shop building),
> and I can't do it in the basement without (justifiable)
> complaints from my wife about stinking the whole house up.
>
> For the record, I have no allegiance to either Red or Blue.
> I've used both happily. Besides, I'm registered as
> an independent.
>
> Some of my requirements for a TIG system are 1)HF - I want
> a versatile tool. One that will do aluminum, stainless, and
> maybe even the exotics if I ever had a call for it. Not
> being able to do aluminum or stainless would be a
> deal-breaker for me, even for a cheapie add-on system. I can
> do aluminum and stainless with my torches now, but it's
> a bit of a pain and requires more finess (and more flux). 2)
> Foot-pedal control. Being able to adjust my heat on the fly
> is a big deal for me with a TIG setup. If I have to stop a
> good pass to fiddle with some knobs, I might as well not
> bother at all. 3) Pre- and Post- flow control. I guess I
> shouldn't be surprised the add-ons don't have a
> solenoid valve, but I guess I was taking it for granted they
> did.
>
> Jim Ash
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: charles loomis <rameses32(at)yahoo.com>
> >Sent: Oct 30, 2008 12:23 AM
> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >
>
> >
> >I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start,
> meaning you touch the tungston tip to the metal you are
> welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because it
> contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the
> weld. Also they don't have a built in gas solinoid for
> the argon, you turn on the gas, weld, then turn off the gas,
> very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to turn it
> off.
> >
> >I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup,
> it's cheap and the most versitile tool in your shop. But
> if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for $600
> Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it
> is High frequency start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100%
> duty, and 180 amp 80%. You should be able to get the same
> rig in the states for $350 new.
> >
> >Charley
> >
> >
> >--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any
> >> experience with any of those kits that will
> convert your
> >> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some
> of the
> >> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more
> >> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.
> >>
> >> Jim Ash
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
> >> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
> >> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> >> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List:
> Re:
> >> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >> >
> Davies
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Jim Ash wrote:
> >> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are
> enticing.
> >> Maybe next April.
> >> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents.
> They
> >> both are supposed to
> >> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage;
> the Thermal
> >> Arc 185TSW in
> >> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at
> the low
> >> end, where we
> >> >would be working. Can't verify that from
> >> experience, as I keep trying to
> >> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never
> quite get
> >> there.
> >> >
> >> >When the time comes, go to
> sci.engr.joining.welding and
> >> ask Ernie
> >> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A
> better
> >> model might come along
> >> >by then, and he's likely to know.
> >> >
> >> >Owen
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Rick,
Rivet one up...
Jack
www.textors.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: just plane flyin' |
| From: | "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> |
Oscar,
Could you comment please on the flight characteristics of a Piet vs. a typical
trike? I figure since your brother has one, you'd be well educated on the differences.
Things I'd like to know are: how do they compare flying in turbulence, their load
capacity, handling, landing/takeoff distances, glide ratio, etc..
I'm going to buy or build one or the other (a Piet or a trike) and intend to tailor
my training around the aircraft itself. Thus, I'm not interested in learing
to fly 3-axis planes if I'm going to end up with a weight-shift trike and
vice-versa.
PM me if you wish.
Thanks,
Tom
--------
Location: Wilson, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211255#211255
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: alternative shelter/lower cost |
| From: | "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> |
Thanks for passing this along Walt and Mike.
--------
Location: Wilson, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211257#211257
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net> |
Jack,
I thought of doing that also. Make it out of terne plate, rivet, then solder. If
I remember correctly, that is what Bernard did on the early versions. However
I do recall some have had trouble with leaks from vibration after only a few
hours. Anyone with a terne plate or galvanized tank that they made care to comment?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack T. Textor
Sent: 10/30/2008 3:28:19 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
Rivet one up
Jack
www.textors.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gcardinal(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick,
The original fuel tank on NX18235 was riveted and soldered galvanized steel
. A thorough leak check and pressure test when it was new showed it to be l
eak free.
It started leaking=C2-shortly after=C2-we started flying. After about 4
5 hours of use it was leaking at the rate of approximately 1 gallon / hour.
It was pulled and an aluminum tank was made up and taken to a local welder
who did his magic with a TIG unit. The new tank has performed flawlessly
for over 100 hours. No worries with any kind of fuel.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:34:39 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Jack,
I thought of doing that also. Make it out of terne plate, rivet, then solde
r. If I remember correctly, that is what Bernard did on the early versions.
However I do recall some have had trouble with leaks from vibration after
only a few hours. Anyone with a terne plate or galvanized tank that they ma
de care to comment?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack T. Textor
Sent: 10/30/2008 3:28:19 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
Rivet one up=EF=BD
Jack
www.textors.com
======
=======================
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Maybe if you could provide a sketch or image it might make things a bit more
clear, but I'm going to go ahead and make a couple of assumptions.
I am assuming a set-up just like the one shown in Jack Phillips' photo, with
the exception that your rod end does not have the swivel connection.
It sounds like you are basically asking how much load a 1/4-20 threaded rod
can carry in simple tension.
A threaded rod is not as strong as a solid rod of the same diameter would
be, since there are threads cut (or rolled) into the rod, which leaves a
cross-sectional area less than the solid rod. Experiments have been done to
determine the effective diameter of threaded fasteners - this is the
diameter of a solid rod that would be approximately equal to the threaded
rod. This effective diameter is used to calculate the effective
cross-sectional area of the threaded rod, and is referred to as the Tensile
Stress Area, which is the number used to calculate the maximum load that can
be carried by a threaded fastener. A 1/4-20 thread has a Tensile Stress Area
of 0.0318 square inches, whereas a solid rod 1/4" in diameter would have an
area of 0.049 square inches. We will use 0.0318 for our calculations.
Using the only data we have been supplied with (Tensile Strength - no
indication whether this is Ultimate (breaking) or Yield (deforming)), we can
easily compute the maximum loading for each material.
Maximum Load = Tensile Strength x Tensile Stress Area
For the Steel rod:
Max Load = 75,000 x 0.0318 = 2385 lb.
For the Aluminum rod:
Max Load = 45,000 x 0.0318 = 1431 lb.
If we recall Jack's explanation of the loads carried by the lift struts of
the Pietenpol in flight, we remember that we are looking for a load carrying
capacity of about 4000 lb. Based on these numbers we see that with the
Aluminum rod ends, your lift struts would likely fail at less than 2 G's of
loading (a sharp banked turn or a bit of turbulence). With the Steel rod
ends the lift struts will fail at about 3 G's.
If I've interpreted your question correctly, I would say neither of the two
are a good choice. The 1/4-20 size is not big enough.
If we do the calculation the normal way - (that is, we are given the loading
and the material strength, and from that we determine the fastener size) we
see the following:
for the Steel rod:
minimum Tensile Stress Area required = 4000 lb/75,000 psi = 0.053 sq in
from charts (or calculations using formulae) we see that 5/16-18 thread has
Tensile Stress area of 0.0524 and 5/16-24 thread has a value of 0.058 .
Either of these should do the job - move up one size to 5/16".
for the Aluminum rod:
minimum Tensile Stress Area required = 4000 lb/45,000 psi = 0.089 sq in
from charts we see that 3/8-24 thread has Tensile Stress area of 0.088
(close enough) and 7/16-14 thread has a value of 0.093 while 7/16-20 thread
has a value of 0.119 .
You will need to substantially increase the rod size to use aluminum rods.
Of course, this may all be an oversimplification.
As is often the case, the perceived weight savings by using aluminum becomes
much smaller when the sizes need to be increased to account for the reduced
strength. I can't imagine there is a real significant weight savings to be
had by using aluminum rather than steel in this application. Personally, I
don't care for aluminum fasteners (except maybe rivets). I would go for the
5/16-24 size - which just happens to be the size that Jack said he used on
his struts.
Hope I'm not way off track here.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:50 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Understood. My delema is this: I can get steel ends or aluminum ends, both
solid and both about the same size...1/4" hole, 1/4-20 threads, 1-1/2" long
threaded shaft, etc. The steel ends are cheaper, but I am sure they weigh
more. They are rated at 75,000 PSI tensil, the aluminum is rated at 45,000.
How do I figure if the 45,000 is enough?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
This is kind of a difficult question to answer. There are a lot of unknowns
here:
What is the diameter of the strut end?
What material is the strut end made of?
How long is the strut end in it's fully retracted position, and how long in
it's fully extended position?
For the most part, when in flight, lift struts are loaded in tension. They
can go into compression when experiencing turbulence, or a rough landing.
And of course, they are loaded in compression when the plane is at rest, but
that loading is pretty minimal (just the static weight of the wings).
If the rod end is loaded in simple tension, it doesn't really matter how
much is unscrewed (as long as the threads are fully engaged). The only
condition that I can think of where it would make a difference how much the
threaded portion is unscrewed would be if the rod end was subjected to
bending loads (sideways). Then you get an increased bending moment - but I'm
not sure how that would occur, and if it did, how much loading it would be.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Guys,
Thanks for all of the responses. I see that I have done a poor job of
explaining my question. I have attached a modification of Clif's drawing
that shows my concern: As the rod end is unscrewed from the threaded portion
of the strut, the rod shaft takes on "strut"
function and experiences all the loads that the strut does, including side
loads. How far out can the rod be unscrewed before it weakens the overall
function of the strut assembly?
Thanks again for all the replies,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick,
I played hell trying to find terne plate. And I live in a place of old
industry.
Some of the old distributors had old rolls of the stuff in the rafters,
but it was too thin.
But by advise from my building Mentor, don't use galvanized.
He said it seems to handle right, but later on it cracks.
I finally ended up with aluminum.
Cut out all the shapes and held them together by drilling tiny holes
about 1/8" from the edge at places about 4" apart along the seam. Looped
a piece of thin wire thru and twisted.
Then I tacked every few inches along the whole tank, and removed the
wire twists.
Then finished TIG welding.
Of course when I tested the tank for leaks, it was like a watering can
sprinkler. (I had never TIG'ed before)
So I took it to my friend Don (here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeyWuY2Gmpg in the front seat of my
Piet)
And being the great welder that he is,,,re TIG'ed all the seams to
create 2 flawless tanks.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:34 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Jack,
I thought of doing that also. Make it out of terne plate, rivet, then
solder. If I remember correctly, that is what Bernard did on the early
versions. However I do recall some have had trouble with leaks from
vibration after only a few hours. Anyone with a terne plate or
galvanized tank that they made care to comment?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack T. Textor
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: 10/30/2008 3:28:19 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
Rivet one up.
Jack
www.textors.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com> |
Rick,
On my RV8 I used ProSeal at all the joints and rivets, never had a
problem. I think Van's sells an improved product today.
Jack
www.textors.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb(at)charter.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick, My tank is a Cub tank built by a guy in Cheboygan, Mich. He
charged me $140. He has the patterns to make more. If you want I'll ask
him if he wants to make anymore.
My tank is mounted behind the firewall and holds ~12.6 gallons.
Jim Lagowski, in N.W. Mich
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make
it out of. I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who
does racing tanks. His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he
did was around $500 just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but
since I will also burn auto fuel I am concerned about solvent
resistance. When I get time I'll go through all of the posts to the web
site and make a decision, unless someone would like to chime in now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: 10/30/2008 2:28:16 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lmforge(at)earthlink.net writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's
request I attached some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I
have also included a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I
used the hardwood block and tube method to insure the holes were aligned
properly and perpendicular. This idea came from Chris Tracy on his web
site. It worked well. This is the same method I used to drill all of the
holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron
hinges, mount the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls
and cables I have mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still
need to do some more like the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I
am going to put the fuel tank in the front and that still needs to be
made. The wing center section is complete. My empennage is complete and
has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy wires for a test fit. Next
on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but
realistically that might be a stretch, depending on how much I get done
this winter. I am also going to use a corvair engine. I have the core,
but I still need to rebuild it. Around Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's
in various stages on construction. All of them will be using Corvair
power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines at the same time in the
same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech counselor. The
great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and also doing a
corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration of the
Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
10/30/2008 7:59 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Thanks Jim, that would be great! Do you have any dimensions and photos that you
could share? Walt and Greg I thought you were the ones that had problems with
the riveted and soldered tanks, which is why I did not want to go that route.
When I checked if there was anyone locally that could weld up an aluminum that
I fabricated, I was given the name of the guy that wants $500.
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Lagowski Morrow
Sent: 10/30/2008 8:05:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick, My tank is a Cub tank built by a guy in Cheboygan, Mich. He charged me $140.
He has the patterns to make more. If you want I'll ask him if he wants to
make anymore.
My tank is mounted behind the firewall and holds ~12.6 gallons.
Jim Lagowski, in N.W. Mich
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make it out of.
I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who does racing tanks.
His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he did was around $500
just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but since I will also burn auto
fuel I am concerned about solvent resistance. When I get time I'll go through
all of the posts to the web site and make a decision, unless someone would like
to chime in now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 10/30/2008 2:28:16 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lmforge(at)earthlink.net
writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached
some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included
a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and
tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This
idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same
method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount
the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have
mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like
the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank
in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete.
My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy
wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight
axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might
be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going
to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around
Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All
of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines
at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech
counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and
also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration
of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
AVG - 270.8.5/1756 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 7:59 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Weight and Balance |
| From: | "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net> |
Greetings! Anyone have an excel spreadsheet for weight and balance calculations
for a Model A powered Aircamper. Fuselage length firewall to tailwheel is 161.5
inches. You can contact my email... dwilson(at)ci.austin.mn.us
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211320#211320
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Bill,
Yes, the bending loads are what I am talking about. As to how that
would occur, my assumption is that it would occur just like it does
for the rest of the strut. For instance, it's often been said that
jury struts are needed to keep the main struts from "collapsing" or
phrases to that effect. I've always assumed that such a "collapse" is
due to bending, or side, loads. If this is the case for struts, then
it must be the case for the shaft of the rod end, since it's simply
part of the strut, only skinnier and with all those stress risers
(a.k.a, "threads"). When the rod is screwed in all the way, it's
shaft is not acting as a length of strut. As it is unscrewed, the
shaft is exposed to more and more bending loads the more its length
is exposed.
I agree that the dimensions you list are needed to make a
determination. One time-honored shortcut, though, is to assume that
if the part is from a certified airplane (for example, a Cub
strut/rod end assembly), then there may already be data out there
that will answer this question. That's why in my earlier, and poorly
written, post, I asked if anyone knew how far out a Cub rod end could
be unscrewed. Maybe Piper determined that 1 inch is OK and 2 inches
is not. Of course, even THAT shortcut only works if the Piper and
Pietenpol geometries (including jury strut locale, overall lift strut
length, etc.) are similar.
Thanks again - sorry to take up some much bandwidth on this.
Jeff
>Jeff,
>
>This is kind of a difficult question to answer. There are a lot of
>unknowns here:
>What is the diameter of the strut end?
>What material is the strut end made of?
>How long is the strut end in it's fully retracted position, and how
>long in it's fully extended position?
>
>For the most part, when in flight, lift struts are loaded in
>tension. They can go into compression when experiencing turbulence,
>or a rough landing. And of course, they are loaded in compression
>when the plane is at rest, but that loading is pretty minimal (just
>the static weight of the wings).
>
>If the rod end is loaded in simple tension, it doesn't really matter
>how much is unscrewed (as long as the threads are fully engaged).
>The only condition that I can think of where it would make a
>difference how much the threaded portion is unscrewed would be if
>the rod end was subjected to bending loads (sideways). Then you get
>an increased bending moment - but I'm not sure how that would occur,
>and if it did, how much loading it would be.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]
>On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright
>
>Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:04 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
>
>Guys,
>
>Thanks for all of the responses. I see that I have done a poor job
>of explaining my question. I have attached a modification of Clif's
>drawing that shows my concern: As the rod end is unscrewed from the
>threaded portion of the strut, the rod shaft takes on "strut"
>
>function and experiences all the loads that the strut does,
>including side loads. How far out can the rod be unscrewed before it
>weakens the overall function of the strut assembly?
>
>Thanks again for all the replies,
>
>Jeff
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Dan,
Here is a link to the conversation thread where Walt Evans uploaded his
Excel W&B spreadsheets. I think it's around 6 messages down:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=18847&highlight=weight+balance+spreadsheet
He had four different versions for various passenger/fuel configurations.
Walt's Piet is not Model A powered, but it is at least a starting point for
a spreadsheet for yours. I would think that even if there is a Model A
specific spreadsheet out there (I haven't found it yet), if you were to use
it with no changes you are relying on the fact that the fuel tank, radiator,
and other weight stations are the same distance from the datum on their Piet
as on yours. Should they be....probably...but I would still want to measure
mine. Anywho, I would think Walt's spreadsheet(s) could work for you. You
would have to set your own datum, determine the measurements to the stations
for the moments you need to calculate, and replace his figures with yours.
I hope that helps a bit with what you're looking for.
Ryan
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, dwilson wrote:
>
> Greetings! Anyone have an excel spreadsheet for weight and balance
> calculations for a Model A powered Aircamper. Fuselage length firewall to
> tailwheel is 161.5 inches. You can contact my email...
> dwilson(at)ci.austin.mn.us
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
I could be wrong on this, but I believe the "collapsing" that the jury
struts eliminate results from negative g-loading that places the struts in
compression. Let's say the Piet is flying through smooth air. The wing is
making lift, and thusly "lifting" the fuselage. The struts would then be in
tension. If you fly through a downdraft and experience negative g's those
struts would now be in compression, and that would be where they are
susceptible to failure. Here is a link to a short article about model
airplanes:
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/const/v2-4-69.html
I know that they are not the same as a real airplane, but it does simply
explain the idea.
As far as the loads on the strut being the same as the loads on the rod end
fitting....well, they may be transmitted the same but the piece probably
would not react the same. One is a hollow steel/aluminum tube, the other is
a solid metal fitting.
Finally...I posit a situation. The service manual for a J-3 provides rigging
instructions (according to the table of contents). But they may not provide
such specific data as how far out the fork can be unscrewed. They know
exactly how long the strut/fork combination is, because they manufacture it.
They specify a standard set of instructions for rigging the airplane, and if
things need to be adjusted they are relatively minute adjustments. They
don't need to worry about thread engagement on the fork end, because they
are dealing with very small adjustments. Thusly, even if engineering
calculated the minimum thread engagement that may never have made it into
the maintenance manuals, as there was no reason for that to have ever come
into play when rigging a Cub (unless it has some serious issues).
Maybe that would be the case, I don't know. Just throwing that out there. As
you said, even if you could find the data it's for an entirely different
airplane, and you probably shouldn't use that standard without some solid
analysis. Personally I would think one of the preferable things to do in the
situation of a Piet is to look at what others have successfully flown,
preferably for many hours, and choose which of those to emulate. Determine
how long you want your struts to be, and build them so that they have
maximum thread engagement.
Ryan
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Yes, the bending loads are what I am talking about. As to how that would
> occur, my assumption is that it would occur just like it does for the rest
> of the strut. For instance, it's often been said that jury struts are needed
> to keep the main struts from "collapsing" or phrases to that effect. I've
> always assumed that such a "collapse" is due to bending, or side, loads. If
> this is the case for struts, then it must be the case for the shaft of the
> rod end, since it's simply part of the strut, only skinnier and with all
> those stress risers (a.k.a, "threads"). When the rod is screwed in all the
> way, it's shaft is not acting as a length of strut. As it is unscrewed, the
> shaft is exposed to more and more bending loads the more its length is
> exposed.
>
> I agree that the dimensions you list are needed to make a determination.
> One time-honored shortcut, though, is to assume that if the part is from a
> certified airplane (for example, a Cub strut/rod end assembly), then there
> may already be data out there that will answer this question. That's why in
> my earlier, and poorly written, post, I asked if anyone knew how far out a
> Cub rod end could be unscrewed. Maybe Piper determined that 1 inch is OK and
> 2 inches is not. Of course, even THAT shortcut only works if the Piper and
> Pietenpol geometries (including jury strut locale, overall lift strut
> length, etc.) are similar.
>
> Thanks again - sorry to take up some much bandwidth on this.
>
> Jeff
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Here's some generic ones that I used.
Just fill in the blanks, and delete the blanks that don't pertain.
have fun
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
>
> Greetings! Anyone have an excel spreadsheet for weight and balance
> calculations for a Model A powered Aircamper. Fuselage length firewall to
> tailwheel is 161.5 inches. You can contact my email...
> dwilson(at)ci.austin.mn.us
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211320#211320
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Bill, you sir, are right on! That is what-I was looking for. Thank you fo
r taking the time and effort to do that for me. (and the list)
-
I am not a big fan of aluminum fasteners as well, usually. However, they do
have there place. Wing struts are not one of them. I may use aluminum on t
he center struts, but that is yet to be determined. The aluminum solid ends
I have been looking at cost more then their steel twins.- For each strut
, I will more then likely use one threaded, solid rod end for each. So, for
the center section, I would only need to buy 4. Not sure it is worth the a
dded cost to buy 4 aluminum fittings...I doubt the weight savings would be
much. But, then again it ALL adds up over the entire project. Like I said,
TBD on the center section. You have convinced me on steel for the wing stru
ts. Thanks again.
---
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Adequate rod ends |
Ryan,
Thanks for the reply and link. You are describing in part what I'm
thinking. The negative g-loading causes compression of the strut. The
strut then bows, and like a straw, can eventually snap. Once the
bowing starts, loads are no longer 100% in parallel with the former
line of the unbowed strut. In a sense, some of the load is now from
the side, a bending load. If the rod end shaft is part of the strut
diagonal, it will also be subjected to those loads.
All of this pondering on my part is because the plane is already
built and I'd like to add more dihedral. The easiest thing to do is
to back the rod ends out to lengthen the distance between wing as
fuselage strut attach points. But easy doesn't mean safe. Like
anything on a plane, changing what has proven to be safe into some
other configuration demands much consideration.
Thanks all for your thoughts,
Jeff
>Jeff,
>
>I could be wrong on this, but I believe the "collapsing" that the
>jury struts eliminate results from negative g-loading that places
>the struts in compression. Let's say the Piet is flying through
>smooth air. The wing is making lift, and thusly "lifting" the
>fuselage. The struts would then be in tension. If you fly through a
>downdraft and experience negative g's those struts would now be in
>compression, and that would be where they are susceptible to
>failure. Here is a link to a short article about model airplanes:
>
><http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/const/v2-4-69.html>http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/const/v2-4-69.html
>
>I know that they are not the same as a real airplane, but it does
>simply explain the idea.
>
>As far as the loads on the strut being the same as the loads on the
>rod end fitting....well, they may be transmitted the same but the
>piece probably would not react the same. One is a hollow
>steel/aluminum tube, the other is a solid metal fitting.
>
>Finally...I posit a situation. The service manual for a J-3 provides
>rigging instructions (according to the table of contents). But they
>may not provide such specific data as how far out the fork can be
>unscrewed. They know exactly how long the strut/fork combination is,
>because they manufacture it. They specify a standard set of
>instructions for rigging the airplane, and if things need to be
>adjusted they are relatively minute adjustments. They don't need to
>worry about thread engagement on the fork end, because they are
>dealing with very small adjustments. Thusly, even if engineering
>calculated the minimum thread engagement that may never have made it
>into the maintenance manuals, as there was no reason for that to
>have ever come into play when rigging a Cub (unless it has some
>serious issues).
>
>Maybe that would be the case, I don't know. Just throwing that out
>there. As you said, even if you could find the data it's for an
>entirely different airplane, and you probably shouldn't use that
>standard without some solid analysis. Personally I would think one
>of the preferable things to do in the situation of a Piet is to look
>at what others have successfully flown, preferably for many hours,
>and choose which of those to emulate. Determine how long you want
>your struts to be, and build them so that they have maximum thread
>engagement.
>
>Ryan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
I think I understand the question now. You are concerned about buckling.
In compression, the strut assembly will act like a column. The longer an
unsupported column is, the more prone to buckling it becomes. If the
compression forces on the ends of a column are large enough (based on the
specific geometry and physical characteristics of the column), once the
column starts to buckle, it can suffer a catastrophic collapse. This type of
failure can be avoided by a couple of methods. One is to change the
structure of the column (larger profile, thicker wall thickness, different
materials, etc), and the other method is to provide some intermediate
support(s) to effectively shorten the unsupported length of the column. The
second of these methods is recommended for the Pietenpol. This is achieved
by the addition of jury struts. The lift struts on the Air Camper are about
eight feet long, but with the addition of jury struts, the unsupported
length becomes roughly half of that. Since the relationship between buckling
force and column length is an inverse square, reducing the length by half
means that the forces required to buckle the new shorter length increase by
a factor of four (likewise, if the length of a column is doubled, the force
required to buckle the longer column is only one fourth). The jury struts
do very little in ideal flight conditions - straight, level flight, in calm
air, followed by a perfect, soft-as-a-feather landing on a smooth-as-glass
runway. The only possible problem under these conditions would be if the
airflow over the lift struts were to cause the struts to flutter, or
vibrate. The addition of the jury struts will help to alleviate this
situation. In this instance, the jury struts should be attached at a point
that is NOT the midpoint of the strut length, as attachment at the midpoint
can allow harmonic vibration to occur, and multiply. Unfortunately, most of
us have to live in the real world (except for one weekend in July each year,
at a small airport in southern Wisconsin). That real world includes
turbulent air, and occasional hard landings and rough runways (or fields)
among other things. These conditions all have the power to impart negative G
forces on the plane and its occupants. When the Air Camper is put into
negative G conditions, the wings (especially the 3-piece wing) will tend to
pivot downward, putting the lift struts into compression, rather than
tension. When the lift struts are in compression, they begin to act like the
columns mentioned above. Unsupported, the lift struts might collapse when
subjected to these negative G forces. The consequences are nasty if it
happens on the ground, but likely fatal if occuring in flight. So, jury
struts are a good thing to have on an Air Camper.
Now, with respect to your question, as I mentioned, the calculations to
determine the "side loads" the strut ends might encounter are difficult to
determine. But, just out of curiosity, I did a few calculations to try to
determine how much longer your lift struts might need to be extended, in
order to give the wing the dihedral you are desiring. I randomly chose a
dimension of 2" for the dihedral (seems about right). Since the lift struts
are attached at roughly half way between the fuselage and the wingtip, and
the struts are angled at approximately 30 degrees, the resulting lift strut
will only need to be extended by approximately 1/2". I'm not sure, but I
think that Cub lift strut ends are 7/16" (correct me if that's not right).
The forces required to bend a 7/16" diameter bolt would be huge. I would
think that your strut attachment brackets would get ripped out of the plane
before the strut ends would fail (the old "weakest link in the chain", once
again).
The short answer is that I don't think that extending your strut ends an
extra 1/2" is going to put you at risk (provided the threaded rod is long
enough to keep the threads properly engaged).
Anybody have a differing view on this matter?
Bill C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Well Explained!
-
Ken Heide
-
--- On Fri, 10/31/08, Bill Church wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 12:38 PM
#yiv179383659 BLOCKQUOTE {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv179383659 DL {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv179383659 UL {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv179383659 OL {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
#yiv179383659 LI {
PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}
Jeff,
-
I think I understand the question now. You are concerned about buckling.
In compression, the strut assembly will act like a column. The longer an un
supported-column is, the more prone to buckling it becomes. If the compre
ssion forces on the ends of a column are large enough (based on the specifi
c geometry and physical characteristics of the column), once the column sta
rts to buckle, it-can suffer a catastrophic collapse. This type of failur
e can be avoided by a couple of methods. One is to change the structure of
the column (larger profile, thicker wall thickness, different materials, et
c), and the other method is to provide some intermediate support(s) to effe
ctively shorten the unsupported length of the column. The second of these m
ethods is recommended for the Pietenpol. This is achieved by the addition o
f jury struts. The lift struts on the Air Camper are about eight feet long,
but with the addition of jury struts, the unsupported length becomes rough
ly half of that. Since the relationship between buckling force and
column length is an inverse square, reducing the length by half means that
the forces required to buckle the new shorter length increase by a factor
of four (likewise, if the length of a column is doubled, the force required
to buckle the longer column is only one fourth).- The jury struts do ver
y little in-ideal flight conditions - straight, level flight, in calm air
, followed by a perfect, soft-as-a-feather landing on a smooth-as-glass run
way. The only possible problem under these conditions would be if the airfl
ow over the lift struts were to cause the struts to flutter, or vibrate. Th
e addition of the jury struts will help to alleviate this situation. In thi
s instance, the jury struts should be attached at a point that is NOT the m
idpoint of the strut length, as attachment at the midpoint can allow harmon
ic vibration to occur, and multiply. Unfortunately, most of us have to live
in the real world (except for one weekend in July each year, at a
small airport in southern Wisconsin). That real world includes turbulent a
ir, and occasional hard landings and rough runways (or fields) among other
things. These conditions all-have the power to impart negative G forces o
n the plane and its occupants. When the Air Camper is put into negative G c
onditions, the wings (especially the 3-piece wing) will tend to pivot downw
ard, putting the lift struts into compression, rather than tension. When th
e lift struts are in-compression, they begin to act like the columns ment
ioned above.-Unsupported, the lift struts might collapse when subjected t
o these negative G forces. The consequences are nasty if it happens on the
ground, but likely fatal if occuring in flight. So, jury struts are a good
thing to have on an Air Camper.
-
Now, with respect to your question, as I mentioned, the calculations to det
ermine the "side loads" the strut ends might encounter are difficult to det
ermine. But, just out of curiosity, I did a few calculations to try to dete
rmine how much longer your lift struts might need to be extended, in order
to give the wing the dihedral you are desiring. I randomly chose a dimensio
n of 2" for the dihedral (seems about right). Since the lift struts are att
ached at roughly-half way between the fuselage and the wingtip, and the s
truts are angled at approximately 30 degrees, the resulting lift strut will
only need to be extended by approximately 1/2". I'm not sure, but I think
that Cub lift strut ends are 7/16" (correct me if that's not right). The fo
rces required to bend a 7/16" diameter bolt would be huge. I would think th
at your strut attachment brackets would get ripped out of the plane before
the strut ends would fail (the old "weakest link in the chain", once
again).
-
The short answer is that I don't think that extending your strut ends an ex
tra 1/2" is going to put you at risk (provided the threaded rod is long eno
ugh to keep-the threads-properly engaged).
-
Anybody have a differing view on this matter?
-
Bill C.-
-
=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Streamlining Struts |
| From: | "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> |
The recent discussion regarding the various methods possible to
streamline round struts caused me to remember an article that was
published in an issue of To Fly, the magazine that was published by the
now defunct Sport Aviation Association that was founded by Paul
Poberezny (in an effort to return to the original ideals of the EAA). As
the magazine is now out of print, and since the following article used
to be available on the SAA website, I figure it would be okay to scan a
copy and share it with the List.
>From the data presented, one can easily see how beneficial it is to use
streamline tube or, if round tube is used, to streamline that round
tube.
Bill C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Bill C,
Great synopsis of the issues and a very useful analysis of the
real-world scenario. Thanks so much, I'll stand you a beer at B'head.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com |
| Subject: | Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! |
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation
and upgrade of the List services at Matronics. It's through soley through the
Contributions of List members that these Matronics Lists are possible.
You have probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows on any of the Matronics Lists or related web sites such as the Forums site ( http://forums.matronics.com ), Wiki site ( http://wiki.matronics.com ), or other related pages such as the List Search Engine ( http://www.matronics.com/search ), List Browse ( http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse ), etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisments.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every few days
reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience
and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages.
The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all of the
bills associated with running these lists. Your personal Contribution counts.
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This year, these generous people include Bob Nuckolls of the AeroElectric Connection (http://www.aeroelectric.com/), Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (http://www.buildersbooks.com/), and Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/).
These are extremely generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective
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You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this
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Thank you for your support!
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Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Adequate rod ends |
I know that this topic has been beat to death but after all the exotic expl
anations and stress analysis, it might be wise to consider what else could
be impacted by "merely" unscrewing the rod-ends?
-
The Piet in question is already built and for some reason the owner (builde
r?) wants to add some dihedral, so:
-
Assuming a one-piece wing, what kind of a load will this cause on the caban
e strut fittings?
-
Assuming a three piece wing, what loads will be imposed on the butt-ends of
the spars that will translate directly to the wing-attach fittings?
-
Jacking up the struts really does have consequences other than putting a li
ttle dihedral into the tips. I suspect that the loads to the center section
fittings would be a much bigger factor to consider than any cosmetic enhan
cement dihedral might add.
-
Just musing........
-
Larry Williams- XCG,XCMR,EPP=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re:Adequate rod ends |
Larry,
Thanks for the note. Sorry that some information went missing. It's a
3-piece wing; I'm not the builder; not looking for cosmetic
enhancement, but possibly more stability.
Why would dihedral add load to the center section attach pointsor the
wing-attach fittings?
Thanks,
Jeff
>I know that this topic has been beat to death but after all the
>exotic explanations and stress analysis, it might be wise to
>consider what else could be impacted by "merely" unscrewing the
>rod-ends?
>
>The Piet in question is already built and for some reason the owner
>(builder?) wants to add some dihedral, so:
>
>Assuming a one-piece wing, what kind of a load will this cause on
>the cabane strut fittings?
>
>Assuming a three piece wing, what loads will be imposed on the
>butt-ends of the spars that will translate directly to the
>wing-attach fittings?
>
>Jacking up the struts really does have consequences other than
>putting a little dihedral into the tips. I suspect that the loads to
>the center section fittings would be a much bigger factor to
>consider than any cosmetic enhancement dihedral might add.
>
>Just musing........
>
>Larry Williams XCG,XCMR,EPP
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Progress Report |
Guys:
Just finished this week splicing and routing my spars (for one piece
wing). It was much easier than I expected, but I filled a large
shop-vac twice with the sawdust. Now it is getting too cold to be
glueing, so I may have to slide the ribs on and make all of the pieces
to have ready for when it warms up, or maybe a few warm days left this
year?
Gene
trying my best to make Brodhead/Oshkosh next year
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Adequate rod ends |
A question I asked Bill Rewey led to answer related to that. Until Larry
brought it up I had forgotten about it. On the drawing for his three piece
wing, he shows a roughly 1" gap between the center section and wing panels.
There are offsets bent in the wing attach fittings, to allow them to mate
with the opposite fittings. I believe he also did not extend the spars at
all beyond the butt ribs.
Anyhow, he pointed out that having the one inch gap between the wing panels
and center section (and thusly the ends of the spars of each) prevents the
tops of the spars from contacting each other if you add dihedral. With the
three piece wing drawing that comes with the Piet plans, I believe there is
zero clearance between the ends of the spars of the panel and center section
(I'm not at home, so I'm going from memory). According to what the drawing
shows it would appear that if you add dihedral the tops of the spar would
already be touching, and thusly it would attempt to pull the bottom of the
spars apart. This would put additional stress on the wing attach fittings
and wing attach bolts.
At least that's how it appears. Maybe those who have built the three-piece
and added dihedral can add their experience. But if your Piet has the
three-piece wings built to the plans with zero clearance between the wing
and center section spars, the stress on the fittings and bolts might be
something to take into account.
Ryan
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Jeff Boatright wrote:
>
>
> Why would dihedral add load to the center section attach pointsor the
> wing-attach fittings?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Contribution Site URL Clarification |
Dear Listers,
In my List Fund Raiser kickoff email last night, I mistyped the URL for the *initial*
Contribution web site and couple of people reported receiving SSL certificate
errors. The actual payment entry pages where were correct, however, so
there were no certificate issues that impacted payment data. I'm sorry for the
confusion.
Please use the following URL to start your List Contribution:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you for your support!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | see web page below last try failed to go through |
http://www.kontraband.com/videos/14339/The-Best-Air-Race-Pilot-EVER/
I know this has nothing to do with Piets but this is some flying you just have
to see.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: see web page below last try failed to go through |
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_ViralVideo_KillaThrill_LostWingLanding_199096-1.html
It also has nothing to do with actual flying...well, real airplane flying at
least. :P
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:49 PM, H RULE wrote:
> http://www.kontraband.com/videos/14339/The-Best-Air-Race-Pilot-EVER/
>
>
> I know this has nothing to do with Piets but this is some flying you just
> have to see.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Progress Report, keep going |
Gene, what kind of glue??- If it's T-88 keep on building.- Dad built hi
s in the winter in an unheated garage.- Just as long as you have a little
electric heater with a fan on it.- Put a piece of 2 mil dropcloth plasti
c over the wing as to cover it with 2ft or so extra around the edges.- Ta
pe or lay a board pipe etc. to hold the sides down, and leave the ends open
.- Put the heater with the fan on it at one end and inflate the plastic l
ike a greenhouse, it will stay at least 70 degrees all night long.- Keep
the glue inside and mix it, then go out glue the pieces on and put up the t
ent.- I used the same process last winter building wings for my Jungster,
worked like a charm, I left the heat tent on for 48 hrs to make sure the g
lue cured, and the temp outside was well below 20 degrees.
-
Shad=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "carson" <carsonvella(at)yahoo.com.au> |
Hi All
I have finally started building again I have the fuse layed out on the bench.
My question,at the front the bottom longeron seems to have a lot of stress from
the firewall to the first brace the firewall brace measurement from the top longerron
to the bottom is 21 7/8 and at the first brace it is 22 3/4 which is
7/8 over 12 inches.
My worry is will it pop when I pull it out of the jig, has anyone had this problem
or done it differently OR am I worrying for no reason.
I hope I have explained this clearly.
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211725#211725
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com> |
| Subject: | Re: see web page below last try failed to go through |
Apparently I have just found out from another pilot friend of mine that it is a
well put together hoax;sorry to bother you guys with this junk.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 4:08:48 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: see web page below last try failed to go through
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_ViralVideo_KillaThrill_LostWingLanding_199096-1.html
It also has nothing to do with actual flying...well, real airplane flying at least.
:P
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:49 PM, H RULE wrote:
http://www.kontraband.com/videos/14339/The-Best-Air-Race-Pilot-EVER/
I know this has nothing to do with Piets but this is some flying you just have
to see.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
Hi Carson The longeron is on a downward slope at that point so all of the
bend is not right at the first upright. It continues downward to 23 3/4 and
then starts back up in a tight but gentle curve. To answer your question I
had no problem with my spruce longerons making that bend and I've never
heard of it being a problem except on the early F/W 1929 model where that
curve is tighter. I blocked it up tight in the jig at the firewall and
pulled it up into the jig blocks dry. I guess you could soak it or steam it
but I don't belive it's needed as long as your wood is within specs. I glued
all of the joints and installed the blocking and gussets on the one side and
the 1/8" plywood on the other and then let each cure for a couple days
before removing each side from the jig. I belive I have seen pictures where
builders have just glued in the uprights and diagonals and removed the sides
from the jig before adding the gussets but I'm not nearly that optomistic.
Good luck, I believe the fuselage was one of the most rewarding parts of the
project. Ed G. Almost ready to start covering.
>From: "carson" <carsonvella(at)yahoo.com.au>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse Question
>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:53:45 -0800
>
>
>Hi All
>I have finally started building again I have the fuse layed out on the
>bench.
>My question,at the front the bottom longeron seems to have a lot of stress
>from the firewall to the first brace the firewall brace measurement from
>the top longerron to the bottom is 21 7/8 and at the first brace it is 22
>3/4 which is 7/8 over 12 inches.
>My worry is will it pop when I pull it out of the jig, has anyone had this
>problem or done it differently OR am I worrying for no reason.
>I hope I have explained this clearly.
>Thanks
>Carson
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211725#211725
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com> |
Sorry to be jumping in here again but I just remembered something I did
which worked great. I left the extra length of my longeron 1x1s extend past
the firewall 4 or five inches. Useing wire and a hardware store turnbuckle
I cranked in some pressure to pull the lower longeron up into place. I left
this in place until after I removed the fuse side from the jig and installed
the inside gusset on one side and the outside ply on the other. after that
cured I trimmed the longerons to length. Might have been overkill but it
eliminates the chances of that joint popping loose when removed from the
jig. Ed
>From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse Question
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:31:00 -0500
>
>
>Hi Carson The longeron is on a downward slope at that point so all of the
>bend is not right at the first upright. It continues downward to 23 3/4 and
>then starts back up in a tight but gentle curve. To answer your question I
>had no problem with my spruce longerons making that bend and I've never
>heard of it being a problem except on the early F/W 1929 model where that
>curve is tighter. I blocked it up tight in the jig at the firewall and
>pulled it up into the jig blocks dry. I guess you could soak it or steam it
>but I don't belive it's needed as long as your wood is within specs. I
>glued all of the joints and installed the blocking and gussets on the one
>side and the 1/8" plywood on the other and then let each cure for a couple
>days before removing each side from the jig. I belive I have seen pictures
>where builders have just glued in the uprights and diagonals and removed
>the sides from the jig before adding the gussets but I'm not nearly that
>optomistic. Good luck, I believe the fuselage was one of the most rewarding
>parts of the project. Ed G. Almost ready to start covering.
>
>
>>From: "carson" <carsonvella(at)yahoo.com.au>
>>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse Question
>>Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:53:45 -0800
>>
>>
>>Hi All
>>I have finally started building again I have the fuse layed out on the
>>bench.
>>My question,at the front the bottom longeron seems to have a lot of stress
>>from the firewall to the first brace the firewall brace measurement from
>>the top longerron to the bottom is 21 7/8 and at the first brace it is 22
>>3/4 which is 7/8 over 12 inches.
>>My worry is will it pop when I pull it out of the jig, has anyone had this
>>problem or done it differently OR am I worrying for no reason.
>>I hope I have explained this clearly.
>>Thanks
>>Carson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211725#211725
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Windshild improvement |
For what it's worth.
The Fall weather here in Western Tennessee could not be better. 70's
during the day and low 30's at night. Since my favorite time to fly is
at sunrise, it does get cool in the cockpit. My windshild was of a
normal size for a Piet and it was very windy in the cockpit. I needed
to wear goggles while flying as it was windy enough that I feared my
glasses would be ripped off if I turned my head to the side. Keep in
mind, I'm 6' tall and shorter pilots may not have a wind issue. To
make a long story short, I redesigned my windshild plus made it 3"
taller. What a difference! It's like riding my Gold Wing. Almost no
wind in the cockpit at all. I couldn't believe the difference. If any
of you put your planes away for the winter, you might try changing your
windshild before you do. You just might get a whole lot more flying
done this year. Cool weather flying is the best there is. The Ol' Piet
flys like a super cub!
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Question |
As best I remember, I extended both longerons forward 6-8 inches past
the firewall. Then I glued/nailed a piece of scrap plywood across the
two as a temporary gusset. Be sure you remember you have to make mirror
image fuse sides, ie you can't put the forward gussets on both sides
while in the jig.
All this happened on my project afew years ago, and I'm going from my
poor memory, but you could wait and cut off the excess after the
fuselage is together and the plywood sides are on. I don't remember
what I did, but I didn't have any problems with the lower longeron, and
mine was all put together dry with no steaming. As Ed says, the curve is
not all that steep and it was no problem getting the lower longeron into
the jig.
Ben Charvet
Tails surfaces covered, awaiting one more final assembly before covering
wings and fuse.
rson wrote:
>
> Hi All
> I have finally started building again I have the fuse layed out on the bench.
> My question,at the front the bottom longeron seems to have a lot of stress from
the firewall to the first brace the firewall brace measurement from the top
longerron to the bottom is 21 7/8 and at the first brace it is 22 3/4 which is
7/8 over 12 inches.
> My worry is will it pop when I pull it out of the jig, has anyone had this problem
or done it differently OR am I worrying for no reason.
> I hope I have explained this clearly.
> Thanks
> Carson
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211725#211725
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Carson,
I saw no tendencies for the joints to fail, but I installed diagonals and
gussets before removing the 1st side from the jig. Check the archives as
Dick Navatril had good ideas for making the rear cockpit a little larger,
with more slope to the pilot's seat back.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of carson
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse Question
Hi All
I have finally started building again I have the fuse layed out on the
bench.
My question,at the front the bottom longeron seems to have a lot of stress
from the firewall to the first brace the firewall brace measurement from the
top longerron to the bottom is 21 7/8 and at the first brace it is 22 3/4
which is 7/8 over 12 inches.
My worry is will it pop when I pull it out of the jig, has anyone had this
problem or done it differently OR am I worrying for no reason.
I hope I have explained this clearly.
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211725#211725
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Windshild improvement |
| From: | "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> |
Gene,
Do you have any pictures and specs. for the re-design?
--------
Location: Wilson, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211749#211749
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Rick Holland" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Windshild improvement |
So how many inches above the top of your head did the top of your new
windshield end up?
Rick
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:13 AM, Gene & Tammy wrote:
> For what it's worth.
> The Fall weather here in Western Tennessee could not be better. 70's
> during the day and low 30's at night. Since my favorite time to fly is at
> sunrise, it does get cool in the cockpit. My windshild was of a normal size
> for a Piet and it was very windy in the cockpit. I needed to wear goggles
> while flying as it was windy enough that I feared my glasses would be ripped
> off if I turned my head to the side. Keep in mind, I'm 6' tall and shorter
> pilots may not have a wind issue. To make a long story short, I redesigned
> my windshild plus made it 3" taller. What a difference! It's like riding
> my Gold Wing. Almost no wind in the cockpit at all. I couldn't believe the
> difference. If any of you put your planes away for the winter, you might
> try changing your windshild before you do. You just might get a whole lot
> more flying done this year. Cool weather flying is the best there is. The
> Ol' Piet flys like a super cub!
> Gene
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
| From: | "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com> |
Read this article.
Normalizing is not necessary.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/
If normalizing is not done correctly it can be hazardous.
--------
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211804#211804
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Model A test run report |
Hello good people!
Today was a glorious and warm day here in northern Illinois. 8-1/2 years in
the trenches so far. I rolled out my Piet from the hangar and tied'er down at
the tail. Added about two gallons of gas, and pulled'er through 5 blades
after a one-shot prime. Walked back 'round and twisted the mags around to
"both". Mosied back around to the front and took a'hold of the prop and after
three
blades she came to life! What a great feeling!! There is noth'in quite like
the sound of an "A" and the breeze through your hair (if you have any left).
Ran'er up for quite a while and just took it all in!
This is the second day of runn'in her so a bit more relaxed and enjoyable.
I'm on "cruise control" now that I know she'll run. After 8 1/2 years its a
good feel'in!!
Made a windshield this weekend, so cross that off the list. It's gett'in
closer to Tuesday!! I will work on cover'in her this winter. Got a reading of
1850 RPM static at full throttle with my home-made prop. I think that is pretty
close to where it should be. Good enough to test fly'er with. I attached a
"fish scale" type spring scale (300 lb capacity) to the tail and got a reading
of 260 lbs @ full throttle. Does anybody know if this is good?? I have no
idea, but she was pull'in like a banshee!!
Hopefully this report will serve as an encouragement to spur on all the rest
that are behind me. Keep-on plodding along!! Each small step is one more
toward your end goal............. Can't wait to fly her!!
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net> |
To better show the outline of the new windshild (for the photo) I put
tape around the edge. If you compare the windshild with the tape to the
front windshild without the tape you can see the change I made. I'm
sure someone else can come up with a better design but it works for me.
The front windshild (old design) was 6" taller than the front of the
cockpit and the new windshild is 9.5" above the cockpit. Tonight I'll
be making a new windshild for the front. The white vertical lines you
can see in the new windshild is where I bent each side about 30 degrees
to bend around the cockpit. The front windshild is also bent but you
can't see the lines in this photo.
Hopes this helps
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net> |
This is a second and last photo of the windshild. This time without the
tape and it may make it easier to understand what I'm trying to explain.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
Gene,
Have you had a chance to test fly it? Any
concerns about changed airflow over the fin and
rudder?
Thanks,
Jeff
>
>This is a second and last photo of the
>windshild. This time without the tape and it
>may make it easier to understand what I'm trying
>to explain.
>Gene
>
>
>Attachment converted: HD:windshild 002.jpg (JPEG/IC) (00C424D3)
--
---
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net> |
Jeff. Good catch! Yes I have noticed a small amount of tail heavyness but
I believe once I make and install the front windshild that it will do away
with it (I use to fly without a front windshild and experienced the same
tail heavyness until I installed the front windshild). It wasn't much, but
enough so that N502R was not flying hands off but instead wanted to climb a
bit at cruise. I think that rather than have any effect on the fin, I'm
getting the climb because the windshild slopes back and is installed near
the trailing edge of the wing. I believe the air over the taller sloping
windshild is pushing down on the airplane behind the CG (sort of like
holding your arm out the side causing the airplane to turn in that
direction. The front windshild, on the other hand, is located forward of
the CG and I believe the wind pushing down on it will even things out. Even
if the installation of the taller front windshild does not return it to
hands off flying, I will leave them on as the flying is so much more
enjoyable in cool weather with the taller windshild and the change is so
small. I did not notice any other effect. I have flown with it for two
hours, hard climb, fast descent, steep turns and cruise plus slow flight and
was unable to detect anyother area where there was a change in the flight
characteristics.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: windshild
>
> Gene,
>
> Have you had a chance to test fly it? Any concerns about changed airflow
> over the fin and rudder?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
>>
>>This is a second and last photo of the windshild. This time without the
>>tape and it may make it easier to understand what I'm trying to explain.
>>Gene
>>
>>
>>Attachment converted: HD:windshild 002.jpg (JPEG/IC) (00C424D3)
>
>
> --
> ---
>
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
> Emory University School of Medicine
> Editor-in-Chief
> Molecular Vision
>
>
> --
> Date: 10/28/2008 10:04 AM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Miguel Azevedo" <azevedoflyer(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Model A test run report |
Dan,
That should be equivalent to 39 to 47 HP.
Others might have an idea of how much a A engine develops at the speed read.
Congrats,
Miguel Azevedo
Piper PA22/20-150
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:26 PM, wrote:
> Hello good people!
>
> Today was a glorious and warm day here in northern Illinois. 8-1/2 years in
> the trenches so far. I rolled out my Piet from the hangar and tied'er down
> at the tail. Added about two gallons of gas, and pulled'er through 5 blades
> after a one-shot prime. Walked back 'round and twisted the mags around to
> "both". Mosied back around to the front and took a'hold of the prop and
> after three blades she came to life! What a great feeling!! There is
> noth'in quite like the sound of an "A" and the breeze through your hair (if
> you have any left). Ran'er up for quite a while and just took it all in!
> This is the second day of runn'in her so a bit more relaxed and enjoyable.
> I'm on "cruise control" now that I know she'll run. After 8 1/2 years its a
> good feel'in!!
>
> Made a windshield this weekend, so cross that off the list. It's gett'in
> closer to Tuesday!! I will work on cover'in her this winter. Got a reading
> of 1850 RPM static at full throttle with my home-made prop. I think that is
> pretty close to where it should be. Good enough to test fly'er with. I
> attached a "fish scale" type spring scale (300 lb capacity) to the tail and
> got a reading of 260 lbs @ full throttle. Does anybody know if this is
> good?? I have no idea, but she was pull'in like a banshee!!
>
> Hopefully this report will serve as an encouragement to spur on all the
> rest that are behind me. Keep-on plodding along!! Each small step is one
> more toward your end goal............. Can't wait to fly her!!
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> |
Gene
I also have an over sized windshield and the wind goes right over me making
it confortable and quiet.
One very nice thing on the Piet design, is that you can trim out the balance
using the flying wires on the horiz stab. I made a couple of changes
recently which left my plane a little nose heavy at cruise. I let off one
turn on the front leading wires and tightened one turn on the bottom. Now
it flies perfectly.
It was also a beautiful day in NW Wisc. It's weird flying over some of the
local snow Ski areas which are open any I was in a light jacket. Soon the
lakes will be frozen which will make for some exciting flying at 1-3 ft.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: windshild
Jeff. Good catch! Yes I have noticed a small amount of tail heavyness but
I believe once I make and install the front windshild that it will do away
with it (I use to fly without a front windshild and experienced the same
tail heavyness until I installed the front windshild). It wasn't much, but
enough so that N502R was not flying hands off but instead wanted to climb a
bit at cruise. I think that rather than have any effect on the fin, I'm
getting the climb because the windshild slopes back and is installed near
the trailing edge of the wing. I believe the air over the taller sloping
windshild is pushing down on the airplane behind the CG (sort of like
holding your arm out the side causing the airplane to turn in that
direction. The front windshild, on the other hand, is located forward of
the CG and I believe the wind pushing down on it will even things out. Even
if the installation of the taller front windshild does not return it to
hands off flying, I will leave them on as the flying is so much more
enjoyable in cool weather with the taller windshild and the change is so
small. I did not notice any other effect. I have flown with it for two
hours, hard climb, fast descent, steep turns and cruise plus slow flight and
was unable to detect anyother area where there was a change in the flight
characteristics.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: windshild
>
> Gene,
>
> Have you had a chance to test fly it? Any concerns about changed airflow
> over the fin and rudder?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
>>
>>This is a second and last photo of the windshild. This time without the
>>tape and it may make it easier to understand what I'm trying to explain.
>>Gene
>>
>>
>>Attachment converted: HD:windshild 002.jpg (JPEG/IC) (00C424D3)
>
>
> --
> ---
>
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
> Emory University School of Medicine
> Editor-in-Chief
> Molecular Vision
>
>
> --
> Date: 10/28/2008 10:04 AM
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net> |
Gene,
When I bought Felix the GN-1 the seller gave me an extra windshield that was about
10" tall. He said he replaced it with a smaller windshield because it blanked
out the rudder and it scared him so he took it off. I flew the plane all summer
2007 with the short windshield. About this time last year it started to
get cold so I cut down the tall windshield to 7 1/2" and installed it, much better.
I probably have at least 50 hours on it with the taller windshield and can
not detect any rudder blanking.
Another thing that really helps on colder days is a front cockpit cover, keeps
the cold air from coming up the pant legs.
Skip
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene & Tammy
Sent: 11/2/2008 6:08:32 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: windshield
This is a second and last photo of the windshield. This time without the tape
and it may make it easier to understand what I'm trying to explain.
Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> |
Gene,
Sounds great! We just remade the windshields on ours because they
were so scratched up. We made them the same size as original, but may
go to taller ones, as you did, for the same reason. Hey, do you have
any photos taken from the side, showing the angle of the windshield?
Congrats,
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Model A test run report |
This might be of interest;
http://www.amuffler.com/dyno/dyno1.htm
Dan,
That should be equivalent to 39 to 47 HP.
Others might have an idea of how much a A engine develops at the speed
read.
Congrats,
Miguel Azevedo
Piper PA22/20-150
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
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Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution
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Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HelsperSew(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Dual mags on Model A |
Gene (Rambo),
Yes I have an aftermarket head with 8 plug holes. I have one mag driven off
the end of the crank, and the other off the camshaft. Photo attached.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> |
Looks great, Rick. Of course I'm partial to engine-turned instrument
panels.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's
request I attached some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I
have also included a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I
used the hardwood block and tube method to insure the holes were aligned
properly and perpendicular. This idea came from Chris Tracy on his web
site. It worked well. This is the same method I used to drill all of the
holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron
hinges, mount the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and
cables I have mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to
do some more like the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going
to put the fuel tank in the front and that still needs to be made. The
wing center section is complete. My empennage is complete and has been
fitted to the fuselage with the guy wires for a test fit. Next on the
agenda is the tail wheel and the straight axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically
that might be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I
am also going to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need
to rebuild it. Around Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various
stages on construction. All of them will be using Corvair power. The
plan is to rebuild all of the engines at the same time in the same
location with the assistance of our local EAA tech counselor. The great
thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and also doing a
corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration of the
Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge(at)earthlink.net
_________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net> |
Thanks for the complement Jack. The inspiration actually came from photos of your
October 22, 2008 - November 03, 2008
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-hb