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Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-hc
November 03, 2008 - November 14, 2008

plane and a couple of others. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN ----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
Sent: 11/3/2008 6:50:20 AM
Subject: aileron stuff
Looks great, Rick. Of course Im partial to engine-turned instrument panels. Jack Phillips NX899JP
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws. On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable. The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete. My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight axle main gear. I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago. Rick Schreiber lmforge(at)earthlink.net _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: windshild
Date: Nov 03, 2008
Jeff, this is the only side photo I have. I don't think the angle it's bent at is all that important as the windshild is flexable and can be formed around the cockpit. I used a brake to bend the windshild and I bent it somewhere around 30 to 45 degrees (just eyeballed it). If you want more photos let me know and I'll send them directly to you. Skip, glad to hear that the cockpit cover helped cut down the draft. I've been considering making one to see if it would. Now I know and I'll be making one for sure. Dick, I'm really envious. Wish Tennessee had some real winter with frozen lakes to land on. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and do miss a "real" winter. Winter flying is like tail wheel flying. If you haven't done it, you've miss out on the best part of flying. The info on adjusting the flying wires is very much appreciated and if installing the front windshild does not take care of the tail heavyness, I'll adjust them. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2008
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
Hi Builders,=0A=0AWould people like to comment on methods on how to attach jury struts to the wing spars?- Just looking for options to consider.- I have searched the archives too. Thank you.=0A=0AMy progress report:=0AFus elage on wire spoked wheels, cockpit cowlings in place and rear cockpit ins truments in place.=0AWings on , and struts mostly made and on.=0A=0AThank y ou in advance all for your responses and I appreciate the-photos and come ntary-from builders who keep me inspired.=0A=0Ajohn e.=0Agreenville, wi. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Nov 03, 2008
Hi John, There are several ways to do it. This was my method. I welded a tube in to the strut and put an eye bolt in. Check out the fly in the picture too! Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212133#212133 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2008
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
Thanks Don, however I am-curious about the attachment at the spar, not at -the strut.- What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment.=0A=0ACan you remind me what shade of green you painted tha t as well?- I like it.=0A=0Ajohn=0Agreenville, wi=0A=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-lis t(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM=0ASubject: Piet enpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Don Emch" =0A=0AHi John,=0A=0AThere ar e several ways to do it.- This was my method.- I welded a tube in to th e strut and put an eye bolt in.- Check out the fly in the picture too!- Huh.=0A=0Ahttp://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_14 9.JPG=0A=0ADon Emch=0ANX899DE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212133#212133=0A=0A=0A=0A ========0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
Date: Nov 03, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
John, Here is what I did at the spar. I made a fitting from =BE" x =BE" 6061-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot. At the lift strut I did exactly like Don E mch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift strut and welded it too. Here is a picture: Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Don, however I am curious about the attachment at the spar, not at t he strut. What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar a ttachment. Can you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well? I like it. john greenville, wi _____ From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Hi John, There are several ways to do it. This was my method. I welded a tube in t o the strut and put an eye bolt in. Check out the fly in the picture too! Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: jury strut sketch attached
Date: Nov 03, 2008
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
This is how I did it on my plane. Easy...worked well. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 03, 2008
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
John, Here are a couple of photos of how I attached my jury struts to the spar/strut. Hope this helps. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Nov 03, 2008
John, Sorry about that. I guess I can't tell the difference between spar and strut. I did my spar attachment just like Mike Cuy's. Bent some flat stock into an angle. I think it might have been .063". Hey Jack, yeah drilling those rates right up there with drilling the spars. Makes for a few tense moments. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212190#212190 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 03, 2008
From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Icom A22 / GPS 12 garmin
-Members: - I have a Garmin handheld GPS 12 for sale which works great!! -500 way-poi nts, battery operated, waterproof...excellent shape $100.00. - I also have a Icom Navicom IC-A22 radio in excellent shape, both battery pa cks, charger, cover, instruction booklet, first $150.00. - KM HEIDE - =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <GeneRambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: built-up spar
Date: Nov 04, 2008
would any of you who have made a built-up I beam spar please call me ASAP, kind of an emergency question. Thanks, Gene 202-674-1445 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: My Sitka supplier
As some of you may know from my HINT video on ribs, I have been buying my S itka spruce in bulk, in the rough and making my own cap strips. I have just placed an order with this same vendor, Public Lumber, and am getting my 4 wing spars and the spars for the center section, cut to size except length, shipped to my door for about $150-$170 less the the other web based places I have looked at.- I am told I will have them in a day or two! - I will follow up with a quality and satisfaction email to the list once I h ave them and take a good look. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Subject: Spars
I have yet to begin the construction of my wings as such the topic of spars, spar designs and materials holds a large interest for me at the moment. I have not yet settled on a design or materials and would be interested in supplier sources, materials and designs currently in use, under construction or being considered. I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up from 1/8 aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not certain of ho to measure the relative strength of such a spar against the original spar design to insure it will stand all the stresses and loads imposed on the wings. Has anyone been able to evaluate the all the forces on a spar as designed and compared alternative materials to see how they match up? I would be interested in those calculations also as this is just in the conceptual phases at the moment and unless I can come up with the calculations that the design is minimally as strong and reliable as the BP design and or stronger perhaps? I will abandon the idea and stay traditional in the spar construction. Any rocket scientists, structural, aeronautical, mechanical engineers or those having input to share that are willing to provide advice and guidance, please feel free to lend that assistance. Thanks John **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Spars
AMsafetyC(at)aol.com wrote: > I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up > from 1/8 aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not > certain of ho to measure the relative strength of such a spar against > the original spar design to insure it will stand all the stresses and > loads imposed on the wings. How did you intend to connect the poplar to the aluminum? Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: My Sitka supplier
Michael, Just out of curiosity, are you having them grade the wood according to aircraft standards for you before they ship it? If not, are you at all worried about buying the spruce sight unseen and hoping it meets aircraft specs? Ryan On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > As some of you may know from my HINT video on ribs, I have been buying my > Sitka spruce in bulk, in the rough and making my own cap strips. I have just > placed an order with this same vendor, Public Lumber, and am getting my 4 > wing spars and the spars for the center section, cut to size except length, > shipped to my door for about $150-$170 less the the other web based places I > have looked at. I am told I will have them in a day or two! > > I will follow up with a quality and satisfaction email to the list once I > have them and take a good look. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: My Sitka supplier
I have been pleased with the bulk spruce I have bought from them for my cap strips. They advertise their Spruce on the web as "Excellent quality, spar , instrument and aircraft quality Sitka Spruce."- Slightly concerned, yes . I will know more once I have them in hand. I have heard people ordering s pruce from other places have had their share of not-so-good pieces from tim e to time as well, so...I'll know for sure in a day or two. Worse case I en d up cutting it up for other plane parts or projects and re order from anot her place. - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Spars
Date: Nov 04, 2008
John, This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of shape (warping and twisting). It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger than a wooden spar. If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Spars
John, Don't do it... period. No aluminum-wood mix in your spars!!! Bill Church is absolutely right. I tried something like it. I glued some aluminum to wood, not for strength, but just so it wouldn't move around, just to keep through-holes aligned. I was gluing other stuff, and was curious as to the possible bond... no harm, no foul. The bond held at first, but then temperature changes, and bing... the bond failed WITHOUT any stress at all. (BTW, for those of you wondering, it was in my seatbelt attachment assemblies, not a part on the plans.) I cannot imagine the possible disaster of your intended application. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 11:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars > >John, > >This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". > >You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - >aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion >and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. >Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees >Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the >real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 >degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the >ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The >length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and >contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood >flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is >a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all >fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum >webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be >experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of >shape (warping and twisting). >It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other >thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone >would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. >It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger >than a wooden spar. > >If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in >the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. > >Bill C. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Subject: Re: Spars
Those among many are areas of my concern which is the main reason for toying with an un proven concept and bringing it for as discussion. Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? I am not interested in building an unsafe or un reliable aircraft just curious and toying with the concept of mixing and using alternative materials. Bonding of course being a key issue as I would have no good way of joining the aluminum spar to the wooden rib, without the use of wooden top and bottom flanges which again creates the same question of binding dissimilar materials, thermal expansion, corrosion and loading. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 12:30:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, timothywillis(at)earthlink.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Tim Willis John, Don't do it... period. No aluminum-wood mix in your spars!!! Bill Church is absolutely right. I tried something like it. I glued some aluminum to wood, not for strength, but just so it wouldn't move around, just to keep through-holes aligned. I was gluing other stuff, and was curious as to the possible bond... no harm, no foul. The bond held at first, but then temperature changes, and bing... the bond failed WITHOUT any stress at all. (BTW, for those of you wondering, it was in my seatbelt attachment assemblies, not a part on the plans.) I cannot imagine the possible disaster of your intended application. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 11:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars > >John, > >This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". > >You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - >aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion >and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. >Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees >Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the >real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 >degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the >ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The >length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and >contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood >flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is >a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all >fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum >webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be >experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of >shape (warping and twisting). >It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other >thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone >would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. >It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger >than a wooden spar. > >If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in >the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. > >Bill C. > > > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bike.mike(at)comcast.net
Subject: Spars
Date: Nov 04, 2008
________________________________________________________________________________
From: bike.mike(at)comcast.net
Subject: Spars, trying again
Date: Nov 04, 2008
John et al, In addition to the different ways aluminum and wood respond to temperature changes, the behavior under stress is going to be critical. There are well established calculations for loaded members made of very dissimilar materials. Steel-reinforced concrete is one example. The different materials are usually intended to carry different loads. However, in a wing spar, virtually all the significant loads are from flying at high G-loading. In a typical spar of web and caps, the caps carry primarily tension and compression while the web carries a shear load that keeps the tensioned cap from going one way while the compressed cap goes the other. As the spar flexes under a positive load, the cap on the bottom takes on more tension and the cap on the top takes more compression while the web joins the two under shear loading. These stresses increase predictably because the modulus of elasticity is similar between the spar caps and web. In an all wood spar or an all aluminum spar, the caps and web will flex similarly and the onset of stress with increased load will be shared more predictably, resulting in stresses much more like a stress calculation would indicate. In your composite aluminum/wood wing, you may have to overbuild substantially to safely carry the loads. When the assembled aluminum/wood wing is flying and has to carry an increased load, the aluminum and wood take on the increased stress at different rates. Because aluminum and wood have vastly different moduli of elasticity, the aluminum web will be stressed much more than the wooden spar caps as the wing flexes under load. While the assembly of web and caps could theoretically carry the load, in practice the aluminum web will carry almost all of it, possibly exceeding the tension or compression limit of the material. This is not an area where "toying around" is a very good idea. The Piet is loaded with things to experiment on, but your wing spars are a little too important for experimentation. Mike Hardaway -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com > I have yet to begin the construction of my wings as such the topic of spars, > spar designs and materials holds a large interest for me at the moment. I > have not yet settled on a design or materials and would be interested in > supplier sources, materials and designs currently in use, under construction or > being considered. > > I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up from 1/8 > aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not certain of ho to > measure the relative strength of such a spar against the original spar design to > insure it will stand all the stresses and loads imposed on the wings. > > Has anyone been able to evaluate the all the forces on a spar as designed > and compared alternative materials to see how they match up? > > I would be interested in those calculations also as this is just in the > conceptual phases at the moment and unless I can come up with the calculations > that the design is minimally as strong and reliable as the BP design and or > stronger perhaps? I will abandon the idea and stay traditional in the spar > construction. Any rocket scientists, structural, aeronautical, mechanical > engineers or those having input to share that are willing to provide advice > and > guidance, please feel free to lend that assistance. > > Thanks > > John > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot > 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spars
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Corrosion, for one thing. The wood wil have about 12% moisture. The aluminum in contact with the wood will not be visible, and the corrosion will not be detected until it falls apart. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars Those among many are areas of my concern which is the main reason for toying with an un proven concept and bringing it for as discussion. Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? I am not interested in building an unsafe or un reliable aircraft just curious and toying with the concept of mixing and using alternative materials. Bonding of course being a key issue as I would have no good way of joining the aluminum spar to the wooden rib, without the use of wooden top and bottom flanges which again creates the same question of binding dissimilar materials, thermal expansion, corrosion and loading. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 12:30:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, timothywillis(at)earthlink.net writes: John, Don't do it... period. No aluminum-wood mix in your spars!!! Bill Church is absolutely right. I tried something like it. I glued some aluminum to wood, not for strength, but just so it wouldn't move around, just to keep through-holes aligned. I was gluing other stuff, and was curious as to the possible bond... no harm, no foul. The bond held at first, but then temperature changes, and bing... the bond failed WITHOUT any stress at all. (BTW, for those of you wondering, it was in my seatbelt attachment assemblies, not a part on the plans.) I cannot imagine the possible disaster of your intended application. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 11:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars > >John, > >This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". > >You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - >aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion >and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. >Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees >Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the >real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 >degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the >ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The >length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and >contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood >flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is >a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all >fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum >webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be >experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of >shape (warping and twisting). >It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other >thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone >would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. >It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger >than a wooden spar. > >If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in >the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. > >Bill C. > > > > > sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List e the es y - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================== _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! =http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001> _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Spars, trying again
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Nicely put, Mike. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bike.mike(at)comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:12 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars, trying again John et al, In addition to the different ways aluminum and wood respond to temperature changes, the behavior under stress is going to be critical. There are well established calculations for loaded members made of very dissimilar materials. Steel-reinforced concrete is one example. The different materials are usually intended to carry different loads. However, in a wing spar, virtually all the significant loads are from flying at high G-loading. In a typical spar of web and caps, the caps carry primarily tension and compression while the web carries a shear load that keeps the tensioned cap from going one way while the compressed cap goes the other. As the spar flexes under a positive load, the cap on the bottom takes on more tension and the cap on the top takes more compression while the web joins the two under shear loading. These stresses increase predictably because the modulus of elasticity is similar between the spar caps and web. In an all wood spar or an all aluminum spar, the caps and web will flex similarly and the onset of stress with increased load will be shared more predictably, resulting in stresses much more like a stress calculation would indicate. In your composite aluminum/wood wing, you may have to overbuild substantially to safely carry the loads. When the assembled aluminum/wood wing is flying and has to carry an increased load, the aluminum and wood take on the increased stress at different rates. Because aluminum and wood have vastly different moduli of elasticity, the aluminum web will be stressed much more than the wooden spar caps as the wing flexes under load. While the assembly of web and caps could theoretically carry the load, in practice the aluminum web will carry almost all of it, possibly exceeding the tension or compression limit of the material. This is not an area where "toying around" is a very good idea. The Piet is loaded with things to experiment on, but your wing spars are a little too important for experimentation. Mike Hardaway -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com > I have yet to begin the construction of my wings as such the topic of spars, > spar designs and materials holds a large interest for me at the moment. I > have not yet settled on a design or materials and would be interested in > supplier sources, materials and designs currently in use, under construction or > being considered. > > I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up from 1/8 > aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not certain of ho to > measure the relative strength of such a spar against the original spar design to > insure it will stand all the stresses and loads imposed on the wings. > > Has anyone been able to evaluate the all the forces on a spar as designed > and compared alternative materials to see how they match up? > > I would be interested in those calculations also as this is just in the > conceptual phases at the moment and unless I can come up with the calculations > that the design is minimally as strong and reliable as the BP design and or > stronger perhaps? I will abandon the idea and stay traditional in the spar > construction. Any rocket scientists, structural, aeronautical, mechanical > engineers or those having input to share that are willing to provide advice > and > guidance, please feel free to lend that assistance. > > Thanks > > John > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot > 5 Travel Deals! _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: My Sitka supplier
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Nov 04, 2008
I bought my spar material from public lumber also, it seems to be OK, but i wont know if it is excellent until i plane it to size. i attached a few pics 1 x 6 x 14' Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212287#212287 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0500_765.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Subject: Re: Spars
Having discussed the issue with other engineers and designers who have all indicated that it was a possible to construct and accomplish, my other concerns have always been within the realm of wing loading, torsional forces and material fatigue. Along with ways to calculate those as compared to the strength and reliability of wood which prompted the questions in my original post. The answers I have received so far and the quality of the explanations given make a great deal of sense, to that point of which I have quickly abandoned toying with the idea of an aluminum/wood spar design. Actually the hidden deterioration of the aluminum clad in wood created by the moisture content was an excellent point by Jack and speaks to some of the more salient factors affecting that type of combination. I thank you all for your valuable and highly respected input, I appreciate it. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 3:03:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rmueller23(at)gmail.com writes: That's sort of like saying you propose to play a game of Russian Roulette, and upon being told that there is a very high likelihood of death or disfigurement you then ask what other considerations there are.... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 11:41 AM, <_AMsafetyC(at)aol.com_ (mailto:AMsafetyC(at)aol.com) > wrote: Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Some thoughts on building an airplane
Since we are building a Corvair powered Piet, I am also subscribed to the Corvaircraft mailing list. A discussion about alternative cams has popped up lately due to one gentleman having had a cam gear failure in his engine. All of the banter elicited the following post from William Wynne, the Corvair expert. I think a number of things that he says in his post are relevant to some of our recent discussions. There are some things that do not apply, but in the interest of continuity I did not chop up his original line of thought. I apologize for the length, but I thought it was worthwhile. Ryan ------------------------------------ CorvAircraft> Cams, Archives, Gears and reality check (Long) Friends: I just got an email from PF Beck, who said that he will be flying his Corvair powered Pietenpol into CC#12 on Friday. If your a Piet builder or just a fan, try to get in early because this may be the only day PF is on hand. He lives not far away and will be headed back home at sunset. PF is a super friendly guy who has flown something like 100 passengers in his plane since he finished it in 2004. For anyone interested in reading about Delta cams, I would first suggest looking in the very easy to use archives of this list. In October of 2003, I wrote a long post called "the mother of all cam posts". It covered the Delta cam. Read the parts about indexing and diagnosing poor running on engines with unique cams. It should tell you something that this post is more than 5 years old and still no one has flown one. I would be willing to bet that 120 OT-10's have gone airborne in the last 5 years. For super experienced guys Like Steve Makish the Delta is an interesting test: For new guys building their first engine it is a detour: for people who are not putting one in their engine who just want to talk about it, maybe just look it up in the archives instead of rehashing it. There are a handful of topics like this that come back like a merry go-round every 18 months or so. They are brought up before new builders like they are a revelation, when in reality they have been covered before and not much new has be done on them. Mark Langfords sunset pictures always impress me at first, and a few minutes later they stress me out. "Why am I not aloft in our project plane to see that same sunset from Florida?" I take Grace's Taylorcraft up for the last 15 minutes of light. It's nice, This plane was built by craftsmen in Alliance Ohio 62 years ago. Orbiting at 1,500', the cockpit is bathed in yellow light. I look at the welds in the tubing and think that the people who made these welds are mostly gone now. The runway lights clicking on below signal the very end of the day. Gliding in on final I think "How many more months and days until I am doing this in our Corvair/Buttercup? What good excuse did I have for letting this day go by without getting a day closer to done?" Maybe you have a plane in your shop and you think the same things when you look at Mark's photos, I can't tell you how many months and days it will take you, but three things are true: Work on the plane a little every day; Don't take unproven detours; and It will be well worth the time and treasure you invested when your done. If you doubt this, read between the lines on Mark Jones posts. He has 230 hours aloft savoring the rewards of this labor. Even though he just had a dead stick landing, Mark isn't about to let go of what he gets out of flying a plane he built with his own hands. If every homebuilt started was completed, then we could believe that their were infinite paths to successfully completing a plane. If every new idea came from a builder who had finished a plane, we would know that the writer understood how few innovations are actual improvements, and how much time each one adds to your project. In reality, less than 10% of plans built and 20% of kits are finished in the first 5 years. After 10 years the numbers only get to 15% and 25%. So if you want to increase the odds of seeing that sunset from the plane your creating in your shop, think this over... I have a pretty good idea what caused the two broken cam gears, and I have a plan to test my idea, for now, I don't think everyone else has much to worry about. Jack wrote in that he has some ideas on the subject; I put the cam in his engine 3 years ago, and it is fine, his plane was almost done a long time ago, and for him, like almost every one else this is a non issue. However, if someone really doesn't want to see that sunset, the cam gear is as good an out as any other. Likewise, stay off the merry go round of ideas that people talk about but never do. Incorporating several of these makes your project take longer and makes you a test pilot, a title that's probably not on your business card. Put 10 or 15 of these ideas in your project, and you will create the safest kind of plane...the ones that never get finished, never fly, and therefore never expose their pilot to any risk. There is someone reading this right now, just like you are. He is not as young as he used to be. He has been building his plane for a lot of years. He just read the same words you did, but he is really attached to all the innovations he has got in this project. He has a bunch of pet theories, and he doesn't want to change his way of thinking, He is a good guy, and he is going to read some more new stuff on the net tonight instead of going out and getting an hour in on the project. 12 years from now, his widow will sell the project to a guy from another state who never knew him. The new guy will strip out most of the innovations and get the bare bones plane ready to fly in a few months. He will take it up in the 15 minutes before sunset. Flying in smooth air, with the cockpit bathed in yellow light, the pilot will look down at the sound basic construction and the good craftsmanship. The pilot will look at the holes that were going to mount an autopilot and a big artificial horizon, and a row of holes for a dozen circuit breakers and the wires that went to the 3rd fuel pump. The plane flies along hands off as the pilot thinks about the builder, about how great it would be to land the plane, put it away, and spend an hour on the phone with the builder telling him how well it flew. As the runway lights come on below, the pilots last though before heading down is "he's gone now" All the builders now flying their planes are not exceptional supermen. The differences between builders headed for success and those going elsewhere has little to do with skills, tools, wallet thickness, workshop space, or flight experience. The most significant difference is the choices people make and if they are going to get that hour of work in tonight. Thank you. William Wynne 5000-18 HWY 17 #247 Orange Park, FL 32003 USA _http://FlyCorvair.com/hangar.html_ ( http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html) - October Update 2008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuse Question
From: "carson" <carsonvella(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Thanks for the replies I have glued up the first side and it was fine,but I did put the gusset on , on the underside to be on the safe side. Again thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212305#212305 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on building an airplane
From: "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Gosh, Mr. Wynne's post is almost poetic in nature. -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212318#212318 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Spars
If I may, - I fully understand those that feel they need, or should build as per the pr ints. If a builder is the type that wants a proven design and be more then confident when finished that it will fly and hold together, then building t o the print is the way to go. But, how many of us have the 3 piece wing? Ho w about a longer fuselage? Maybe a wider fuselage or taller? Anyone make th e wings longer...maybe shorter? The originals were powered by a Model A, ye s? Most today are Continentals I believe. My point is that along the way, p eople have taken the time, effort and chance to change things. If no one ev er did, we would all have the same plane except for maybe the paint scheme. I applaud those of us who want to try new things and maybe design somethin g that works better, has less drag, lower weight, better lift, etc. I belie ve those who venture down this road know the risks and will do what is need ed to minimize them. With all due respect to the list, to shut anyone down because they want to try something new, I feel, is not a good thing. - The aluminum/wood spar is not the way to go, but I am sure there are other means of building spars. Some day, someone may come up with that new design and get some verbal abuse at first. Over time, that very design may just e nd up being the preferred method of construction. - I for one want to build a dual fuselage Piet. with twin engines and a singl e wing. Sorta like the Twin Mustangs, a few ME-109s and the HE-111s from da ys of old. Let me get this single version done first though... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
From: "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Regardless of the number of total flight time a pilot has, time-in-type is apparently very important from what I've been told. Are there any Piets in existence with dual flight controls? Else, how would you "really" learn to fly one without unnecessary risks to yourself and others. -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212343#212343 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spars
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 05, 2008
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Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Tom, Every Air Camper I've seen has dual controls. I'm taking primary instruction in mine towards a Sport Pilot license. Run whut ya brung! FWIW, one of my partners in the Piet and several experienced pilots on the field tell me it flies like a less stable Cub or Champ. So, I'd guess that time in either of those or another lightly-loaded convential-geared plane will help a lot. Jeff > > >Regardless of the number of total flight time a pilot has, >time-in-type is apparently very important from what I've been told. > >Are there any Piets in existence with dual flight controls? >Else, how would you "really" learn to fly one without unnecessary >risks to yourself and others. > >-------- >Location: Wilson, NC > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Spars
Michael, I don't feel it was shutting anyone down just because they want to do something different. It was a matter of illustrating that the particular design modification being proposed would be a hazardous thing to attempt. It would also be a difficult exercise to undertake, with (in my opinion) little reward for the risk. If one wants an alternative to either the routed 1" spar or the solid 3/4" spar there are numerous examples of built up spars that have either flight testing, engineering, or both to back them up. There is info in the archives concerning that. One of the purposes of the list is to disseminate information about how to build (and not build) a Piet. If someone proposes an idea about how to do something differently, and others have concerns and opinions that disagree with that builder, then they should most definitely voice their opinions. Based on the quality of people we have on the Piet list, I think that generally those concerns come from wanting others to be safe and successful with the building of their Piet. I don't think that it comes from wanting to squash innovation or new ideas. Ryan P.S.: the 3 piece wing, longer fuselage, and Continental engine options are all "build to the print" ideas. ;) On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > > If I may, > > I fully understand those that feel they need, or should build as per the > prints. If a builder is the type that wants a proven design and be more > then confident when finished that it will fly and hold together, then > building to the print is the way to go. But, how many of us have the 3 piece > wing? How about a longer fuselage? Maybe a wider fuselage or taller? Anyone > make the wings longer...maybe shorter? The originals were powered by a Model > A, yes? Most today are Continentals I believe. My point is that along the > way, people have taken the time, effort and chance to change things. If no > one ever did, we would all have the same plane except for maybe the paint > scheme. I applaud those of us who want to try new things and maybe design > something that works better, has less drag, lower weight, better lift, etc. > I believe those who venture down this road know the risks and will do what > is needed to minimize them. With all due respect to the list, to shut anyone > down because they want to try something new, I feel, is not a good thing. > > The aluminum/wood spar is not the way to go, but I am sure there are other > means of building spars. Some day, someone may come up with that new design > and get some verbal abuse at first. Over time, that very design may just end > up being the preferred method of construction. > > I for one want to build a dual fuselage Piet. with twin engines and a > single wing. Sorta like the Twin Mustangs, a few ME-109s and the HE-111s > from days of old. Let me get this single version done first though... > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Date: Nov 04, 2008
Tom, Bill David in EAA Chapter 582 near Toledo, Ohio has a dual equipped Piet. His e-mail is: wjdavid582(at)embarqmail.com. I got some landing help from him after my landing "event" last July.--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? > > > Regardless of the number of total flight time a pilot has, time-in-type is > apparently very important from what I've been told. > > Are there any Piets in existence with dual flight controls? > Else, how would you "really" learn to fly one without unnecessary risks to > yourself and others. > > -------- > Location: Wilson, NC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212343#212343 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 9:38 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Tom, In the words of my Grandfather, " You can either fly or you can't".- If you can really fly an airplane, and feel it and know what it is doing y ou will not have any problem with a piet.- He learned to fly in the 40's where you flew what ever was avilaible on any given day, Taylorcrfaft,- c ub, champ, whatever.- The 1st time I flew a piet was the 2nd flight of NX 92GB right after the 1st flight of 92GB by my father.- He flew it's madin voyage about 20 min, and landed, then off I went.- I had only 15-20 hrs tailwheel time, and less than 200 total time-and it had been 8 months sin ce I had flown a taildragger, and I only had 1 hr in a 150 since the last t ime I flew.- Landed no problem, if you are comfortable in a champ or cub fly it,- it just sinks a little faster.- An airplane is an airplane, es pecially a low performance airplane like a piet.- Just carry a little ext ra power on landing untill you get the feel of her, and be very conservitiv e with the crosswnd component and you will have no problem with a piet.- D ON'T TAKE CHANCES IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE, GET AN EXPERIANCED T/W PILOT TO DO THE TEST FLIGHT IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT! - Just my 2 cents worth Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 04, 2008
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Best advice of the day, IMO. > DON'T TAKE CHANCES IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE, GET AN EXPERIANCED >T/W PILOT TO DO THE TEST FLIGHT IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT! > >Just my 2 cents worth >Shad > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: List Fund Raiser
A couple of years ago I implemented an automatic "squelch button" of sorts for the Fund Raiser messages. Here's how it works... As soon as a List member makes a Contribution through the Matronics Fund Raiser web site, he or she will instantly cease to receive these Fund Raiser messages for the rest of the month! Its just that simple. Don't you wish PBS worked that way! :-) I really do appreciate each and every one of your individual Contributions to support the Lists. It is your support that enables me to upgrade the hardware and software that are required to run a List Site like this. It also goes to pay for the commercial-grade Internet connection and to pay the huge electric bill to keep the computer gear running and the air conditioner powered on. I run all of the Matronics Email List and Forums sites here locally which allows me to control and monitor every aspect of the system for the utmost in reliably and performance. Your personal Contribution matters because, when combined with other Listers such as yourself, it pays the bills to keep this site up and running. I accept exactly ZERO advertising dollars for the Matronics Lists sites. I can't stand the pop-up ads and all other commercials that are so prevalent on the Internet these days and I particularly don't want to have it on my Email List sites. If you appreciate the ad-free, grass-roots, down-home feel of the Matronics Email Lists, please make a Contribution to keep it that way!! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [Note that there are certain circumstances where you might still see a Contribution related message. For example, if someone replies to one of the messages, when using the List Browse feature, or when accessing List message via the Forum. The system keys on the given email address and since most of these are anonymous public access methods, there is no simple way to filter them.] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
From: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
>From the horses mouth... http://web.archive.org/web/20040607133619/gregagn-1.com/faq.php Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212463#212463 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Spars
I agree Ryan. I was not trying to single anyone one person out. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
From: "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
I'm encouraged by the responses, gents - thanks! -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212473#212473 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Might I suggest: 1. Initially doing it on grass, maybe even wet grass, like in morning dew. Grass doesn't have the stick-em of asphalt or concrete. If you happen to land a little sideways (if you're just learning, or otherwise) the stresses on your landing gear and its attach points are less. If you happen to be in a tricycle, the nose will snap straight, and (hopefully) no harm, no foul. In a taildragger, this is a setup for a bad landing and lots of subsequent badness from there. There'll be time for hard surfaces later. 2. Avoid days with crosswinds initially. You'll have your hands (actually more feet) full without the extra help, until you get the feel of the aircraft. Sometimes when people ask me what's so special about taildraggers, I liken it to trying to push a shopping cart backwards (try it sometime). If the prevailing winds are crosswind at your local airport, consider taking it somewhere else where they're up and down the runway. 3. Fly frequently, but not a lot (sounds dumb, huh?). In any given training session, everybody has a limit, beyond which their learning ability is diminished. In my flight training experience, and depending on the instructor, aircraft, and subject du jour, I'm usually good for 1 to 1 1/2 hours before I start to get numb and any further attempts at education are pointless. My record short time has been about 20 minutes IIRC, doing recoveries under the hood from cruel and unusual attitudes (I've got a very sensitive equilibrium; nausea trumps brain almost every time, except maybe in emergencies). Don't even think about going out there and playing with your new toy for 6-8 hours at a time. But do this at least 2-3 times a week. Go back for another short session while you still remember some of the details of the last one. If not, you're going to spend some portion of your time (maybe even all of it) re-learning what you did the last time. This was one of my big mistakes with initial flight training, and it cost me a lot more time and money than it should have. 4. Find an instructor you can communicate with. Don't assume that the local guy, your father or somebody in your EAA chapter is the right guy for you, just because they're convenient to you or the price is right. If you can't learn from them, for whatever reasons, its a grand waste of your time and money. Some flight instructors are Dr. Jekyll on the ground and Mr. Hyde in the air. The one noteworthy one for me was a nice guy on the ground, but a screamer in the air. He was actually a good flight instructor, but his yelling and screaming at me got under my skin and I started screaming back after a couple sessions. After my initial screaming back, we had a conversation on the ground about our verbal communications and things went well after that. We both yelled and swore at each other, but we agreed it wasn't personal. Although I don't necessarily recommend this particular style for everyone (and I'm glad there were no cockpick voice recorders), I learned a lot from that point on, and we got along well from there. I also avoid flight instructors with habits I consider bad, but not without hearing their side of the story first. I went for an initial lesson in Manahawkin, NJ. We flew for an hour or so out over Long Beach Island, but then this guy had me hugging the trees (BIG trees, at that altitude) for the last several miles back to the airport. I was already glider rated at the time and adding on ASEL. When I questioned him about his options if the engine were to decide to play by its own rules, he pointed to a field and said we'd go there. The field was 2 miles and 200' from us; gliders don't fly that clean, let alone that plane; there's no way we'd have made it. I quietly got him to sign my log for the time and never went back. Having had a close friend die because of airplane stupidity, and having had my share of airborne emergencies, safety is a big, big thing with me, and that includes hoarding as much altitude, airspeed and runway as I can get. I had another one in Ocean City, NJ. He was slightly crippled and he had an attitude about it. (His being crippled was not personally a big deal for me - One of the better instructors I've had was a paraplegic, but he still teaches, flies arial advertising, and does some Part 135.) Maybe this poor guy was just having a bad day, but his personal attitude reflected on his flying and I just didn't feel like putting up with it and paying dearly for the privelege. 4. Once you've reached your personal comfort level, then start removing 1 or 2 above (3 and 4 will never go away). Not at the same time, and not in extreme. Ease into it, but always keep pushing the limits of what you've learned. At this phase, if you didn't learn something new today, you screwed up. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 10:36 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? > > >Best advice of the day, IMO. > > >> DON'T TAKE CHANCES IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE, GET AN EXPERIANCED >>T/W PILOT TO DO THE TEST FLIGHT IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT! >> >>Just my 2 cents worth >>Shad >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
From: "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Thanks, Jim - that sounds like excellent advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to post it. FWIW, I don't tolerate screaming under any situation. I had enough of that while at West Point and I don't need it in my life now. -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212487#212487 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Once upon a time, I had a manager who was a really large (both up and out) dude. He did active time in the army before, and was in the reserves when I was under him. This guy didn't know whisper; he was always loud, mostly just due to his physiological makeup. He was a nice guy with a much better than average sense of humor, and had an unconventional view of how to conduct business. I've got a good lung capacity and the ability to use it beind my voice myself. This guy and I used to go nose-to-nose in his office sometimes; that whole side of the office floor could hear it when we did. I generally try to avoid being obnoxiously loud, but those interactions with him were fun, and we both kinda enjoyed it as a way to blow off some steam. But several times, concerned co-workers approached me after those meetings, asking if I was ok. It was nice they were genuinely concerned for my well-being, but I just told them that's how Chuck and I did business sometimes. We both had a few good laughs over it. Some people work that way, some don't. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> >Sent: Nov 5, 2008 8:52 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? > > >Thanks, Jim - that sounds like excellent advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to post it. > >FWIW, I don't tolerate screaming under any situation. I had enough of that while at West Point and I don't need it in my life now. > >-------- >Location: Wilson, NC > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212487#212487 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
To paraphrase my instructor's advice on learning to fly or practicing flying: "Don't fly if you don't feel good or the plane or the weather is not acceptable. Flying should be fun." "If you are practicing landings and it is about time to stop and you have a great landing, Stop on that landing, It will remain in your memory and that will be the landing that you consider to be the standard." "If your landings are consistantly off, stop and tie the plane down, no reason to practice bad landings." 'If you go up and it does not feet right and you are not doing things right, Land and tie the plane down. You are paying to fly and enjoy it and hone your skill. Don't waste time and money on bad flying." He did push me on learning. He did not want me to just fly around paying for dead weight in the right seat. I was a Grad student and did not have a lot of money. Once I was signed off to solo when I wanted he told me to practice but that it was OK to go fly for fun sometimes. It sure kept my enthusium up. If he had a student with whom he was not being effective (rare) he did not take it personally. He had the club Senior flight instructor meet with him and the student and discuss who might do a better job. Too bad he now flys for Transavia in Holland and is not instructing. Blue skies Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
Reaction to the claims. First the claims. Q: What is the difference between the GN-1 Aircamper and the the original Pietenpol Aircamper? A: Here's what's different between the GN-1 Aircamper and the Pietenpol Aircamper: Modified the structure to accept Piper, Aeronca and early Cessna wing panels. Modified the airfoil leading edge from the front spar forward to give better stall characteristics. Relocated the CG to acceptable limits. Redesigned fuselage structure to accept flat-four aircraft engines, 65 to 85 hp. Redesigned entire structure to accept Piper landing gear and Piper firewall forward, which in the fifties were in plentiful supply new and used. If not available today, no problem, these can be fabricated, plans show how. Designed a steel tube, welded fuselage structure. The plans show both wood and steel tube fuselages. Raised the wing position to allow easier entry and exit for both pilot and passenger. =========================== My reaction: The plans that Don Pietenpol sells today offer some of these same items, e.g.: --welded steel tubing fuze option, --optional Piper-style LG (although the Grega has added side-to-side and "W" members below the fuze)... [IMO, the Grega LG is stronger but heavier...], --drawings for engine mounts for the Continental and the Corvair engine. Otherwise, --Lengthened cabanes, cited obliquely in this old FAQ, is something many have done on Piets. --If you use the Grega design wooden rib (as opposed to actual Piper panels), you still have the shape of the Piet lower surface, but a rounder (larger dia.) nose than BP's. It is sort of a half-ass Clark Y, half BP. (I am using that airfoil myself.) Interpreting remarks by H. Riblett, the Grega airfoil might still separate airflow at nearly 12 percent climbing attitude (maybe another 2-3 degrees more, IMO), and at the same minus-2 percent [2 degree down-angle (glide)] as the BP airfoil. I don't know what Mr. Grega did about CG and would like to know. I think the Grega design uses Cub lift struts with their common single attach point. If that is so, I think it would sure would make it more difficult to swing the wing back to achieve tolerable CG for fatboys like me. Your reactions, pls. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> >Sent: Nov 5, 2008 6:50 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences > > >>From the horses mouth... > >http://web.archive.org/web/20040607133619/gregagn-1.com/faq.php > >Kevin > >-------- >Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212463#212463 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Gentlemen, This morning at 10:00 am FedEx left with us the first and only 3 forged 4340 Corvair crankshafts in existence that we aware of. Today is a day that will go down in Corvair-powered aircraft history as these are one of the most important developments for our engines. We are very excited about their long awaited arrival and we are, so far, very pleased with the results. More information and pictures are forthcoming this week. For inquiring minds, as measured this morning, the main bearing journal radii are .125", and the rod bearing journals radii are .100". Check our website often for updates on this exciting and long-awaited project! www.magnificentmachine.com Thank you, -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212533#212533 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: EGT probe
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Hey everyone, I am trying to dial in the mixture on my Ford, and really need a probe style EGT gauge so I can really get it right. Does anyone have one I could borrow for a few days and return? I'll pay all the shipping and to insure it. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Jon, Thank you for your kind words. I was offering the Billet crankshafts at a reduced price until the Forged Cranks are available. The price of the Billet Cranks will be adjusted soon, now that the Forged samples are here. The Billet cranks are very nice, but they are expensive. The forged Cranks will be available in a 3" stroke, a 3.125" & a 3.25" stroke. They are not made by Callies. They are made over seas by one of the largest crankshaft manufacturers. ISO 9001 & QS 9000 certified. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212552#212552 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: "ALAN LYSCARS" <alyscars(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
Brady, are these Chinese cranks? Al Lyscars ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS > > > Jon, > > Thank you for your kind words. > I was offering the Billet crankshafts at a reduced price until the Forged > Cranks are available. > The price of the Billet Cranks will be adjusted soon, now that the Forged > samples are here. > > The Billet cranks are very nice, but they are expensive. > > The forged Cranks will be available in a 3" stroke, a 3.125" & a 3.25" > stroke. > They are not made by Callies. > They are made over seas by one of the largest crankshaft manufacturers. > ISO 9001 & QS 9000 certified. > > -------- > Brady McCormick > Poulsbo, WA > www.magnificentmachine.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212552#212552 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 05, 2008
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
I fly a GN-1 Aircamper and if you say that the wing was modified to allow e asy access for the front passenger then I say it is still easier for a midg et to get in than a full grown person and I can't imagine how tough it must have been for the Pietenpol.They must have crawled in somehow!They must ha ve been smaller than midgets.If I could and I won't ;I wouldn't put a passe nger in my front seat.Too dangerous.=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ---- =0AFrom: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matr onics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:56 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pi etenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message po sted by: Tim Willis =0A=0AReaction to the clai ms.- First the claims.=0A=0AQ: What is the difference between the GN-1 Ai rcamper and the the original Pietenpol Aircamper? =0A=0AA: Here's what's di fferent between the GN-1 Aircamper and the Pietenpol Aircamper: =0AModified the structure to accept Piper, Aeronca and early Cessna wing panels. =0AMo dified the airfoil leading edge from the front spar forward to give better stall characteristics. =0ARelocated the CG to acceptable limits. =0ARedesig ned fuselage structure to accept flat-four aircraft engines, 65 to 85 hp. =0ARedesigned entire structure to accept Piper landing gear and Piper firew all forward, which in the fifties were in plentiful supply new and used. If not available today, no problem, these can be fabricated, plans show how. =0ADesigned a steel tube, welded fuselage structure. The plans show both wo od and steel tube fuselages. =0ARaised the wing position to allow easier en try and exit for both pilot and passenger. =0A========= ====================0AMy reaction:=0A =0AThe plans that Don Pietenpol sells today offer some of these same items, e.g.:=0A=0A--welded steel tubing fuze option, =0A--optional Piper-style LG (although the Grega has added side-to-side and "W" members below the fuze) ... [IMO, the Grega LG is stronger but heavier...],=0A--drawings for engine mounts for the Continental and the Corvair engine.=0A=0AOtherwise, =0A--Le ngthened cabanes, cited obliquely in this old FAQ, is something many have d one on Piets.=0A--If you use the Grega design wooden rib (as opposed to act ual Piper panels), you still have the shape of the Piet lower surface, but a rounder (larger dia.) nose than BP's.- It is sort of a half-ass Clark Y , half BP.- (I am using that airfoil myself.)- =0A=0AInterpreting remar ks by H. Riblett, the Grega airfoil might still separate airflow at nearly 12 percent climbing attitude (maybe another 2-3 degrees more, IMO), and at the same minus-2 percent [2 degree down-angle (glide)] as the BP airfoil. =0A=0AI don't know what Mr. Grega did about CG and would like to know.=0A =0AI think the Grega design uses Cub lift struts with their common single a ttach point.- If that is so, I think it would sure would make it more dif ficult to swing the wing back to achieve tolerable CG for fatboys like me. - =0A=0AYour reactions, pls.=0A=0ATim in central TX=0A-----Original Messa ge-----=0A>From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net>=0A>Sent: Nov 5, 2008 6:50 AM =0A>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0A>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet - ccune@somtel.net>=0A>=0A>>From the horses mouth... =0A>=0A>http://web.archi ve.org/web/20040607133619/gregagn-1.com/faq.php=0A>=0A>Kevin=0A>=0A>------- -=0A>Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bo wlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails . Explore. Dream. Discover.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online here: =0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212463#212463=0A>=0A> ================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Al, These Crankshafts are manufactured in a facility that is ISO9001 & QS9000 Certified. QS9000 is a quality control standard developed by the "Big Three" Ford, GM & Chrysler. This same manufacture produces Crankshafts for Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler, VW, Caterpillar, Nissan, Toyota, Cleveland Diesel, and a few others that have slipped my mind at the moment. This Facility Is in Beijing China. If you have a philosophical opposition to Chinese products you should not buy one. You should also carefully research where the rest of the products in your life and their components are manufactured. You may be terribly surprised. We have had the First crankshaft we received from this manufacturer thoroughly tested for both Chemical composition and Heat Treating by a reputable Metallurgical laboratory here in Seattle WA. This Company does a lot of work for the Boeing Company. The results were beyond our expectations. These are very high quality Crankshafts. Thank you, -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212573#212573 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
From: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
I hope your not directing any questions towards me and wanting answers. I just was researching my next project and went to the web archive. It seemed to fit the question asked. It would seem that the "modern Pietenpol" has some of these features? I traded emails with someone from the family and I still don't have a good idea what they are selling. No slight intended, I just want more info before I lay down any cash. Kevin -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212580#212580 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Gene, You can rest assured that my crankshafts are not made in a Chinese dairy farm. However, that being said the crankshafts are still not safe for human consumption. Please do not put these crankshafts in you mouth. Do not let your children or pets put these crankshafts in their mouths either. Thank you, :) -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212584#212584 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb(at)charter.net>
Subject: Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol?
Date: Nov 05, 2008
Good advice-Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? > > Might I suggest: > > 1. Initially doing it on grass, maybe even wet grass, like in morning dew. > Grass doesn't have the stick-em of asphalt or concrete. If you happen to > land a little sideways (if you're just learning, or otherwise) the > stresses on your landing gear and its attach points are less. If you > happen to be in a tricycle, the nose will snap straight, and (hopefully) > no harm, no foul. In a taildragger, this is a setup for a bad landing and > lots of subsequent badness from there. There'll be time for hard surfaces > later. > > 2. Avoid days with crosswinds initially. You'll have your hands (actually > more feet) full without the extra help, until you get the feel of the > aircraft. Sometimes when people ask me what's so special about > taildraggers, I liken it to trying to push a shopping cart backwards (try > it sometime). If the prevailing winds are crosswind at your local airport, > consider taking it somewhere else where they're up and down the runway. > > 3. Fly frequently, but not a lot (sounds dumb, huh?). In any given > training session, everybody has a limit, beyond which their learning > ability is diminished. In my flight training experience, and depending on > the instructor, aircraft, and subject du jour, I'm usually good for 1 to 1 > 1/2 hours before I start to get numb and any further attempts at education > are pointless. My record short time has been about 20 minutes IIRC, doing > recoveries under the hood from cruel and unusual attitudes (I've got a > very sensitive equilibrium; nausea trumps brain almost every time, except > maybe in emergencies). Don't even think about going out there and playing > with your new toy for 6-8 hours at a time. > > But do this at least 2-3 times a week. Go back for another short session > while you still remember some of the details of the last one. If not, > you're going to spend some portion of your time (maybe even all of it) > re-learning what you did the last time. This was one of my big mistakes > with initial flight training, and it cost me a lot more time and money > than it should have. > > 4. Find an instructor you can communicate with. Don't assume that the > local guy, your father or somebody in your EAA chapter is the right guy > for you, just because they're convenient to you or the price is right. If > you can't learn from them, for whatever reasons, its a grand waste of your > time and money. > > Some flight instructors are Dr. Jekyll on the ground and Mr. Hyde in the > air. The one noteworthy one for me was a nice guy on the ground, but a > screamer in the air. He was actually a good flight instructor, but his > yelling and screaming at me got under my skin and I started screaming back > after a couple sessions. After my initial screaming back, we had a > conversation on the ground about our verbal communications and things went > well after that. We both yelled and swore at each other, but we agreed it > wasn't personal. Although I don't necessarily recommend this particular > style for everyone (and I'm glad there were no cockpick voice recorders), > I learned a lot from that point on, and we got along well from there. > > I also avoid flight instructors with habits I consider bad, but not > without hearing their side of the story first. I went for an initial > lesson in Manahawkin, NJ. We flew for an hour or so out over Long Beach > Island, but then this guy had me hugging the trees (BIG trees, at that > altitude) for the last several miles back to the airport. I was already > glider rated at the time and adding on ASEL. When I questioned him about > his options if the engine were to decide to play by its own rules, he > pointed to a field and said we'd go there. The field was 2 miles and 200' > from us; gliders don't fly that clean, let alone that plane; there's no > way we'd have made it. I quietly got him to sign my log for the time and > never went back. Having had a close friend die because of airplane > stupidity, and having had my share of airborne emergencies, safety is a > big, big thing with me, and that includes hoarding as much altitude, > airspeed and runway as I can get. > > I had another one in Ocean City, NJ. He was slightly crippled and he had > an attitude about it. (His being crippled was not personally a big deal > for me - One of the better instructors I've had was a paraplegic, but he > still teaches, flies arial advertising, and does some Part 135.) Maybe > this poor guy was just having a bad day, but his personal attitude > reflected on his flying and I just didn't feel like putting up with it and > paying dearly for the privelege. > > 4. Once you've reached your personal comfort level, then start removing 1 > or 2 above (3 and 4 will never go away). Not at the same time, and not in > extreme. Ease into it, but always keep pushing the limits of what you've > learned. At this phase, if you didn't learn something new today, you > screwed up. > > Jim Ash > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> >>Sent: Nov 4, 2008 10:36 PM >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? >> >> >>Best advice of the day, IMO. >> >> >> >> >>> DON'T TAKE CHANCES IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE, GET AN EXPERIANCED >>>T/W PILOT TO DO THE TEST FLIGHT IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT! >>> >>>Just my 2 cents worth >>>Shad >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 7:17 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Wing print and center section
I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer 3 pi ece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have 14 ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new cente r section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the new c enter section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" away from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: - Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing longer) Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new w ing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" or 4-1/2" spacing? How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? - I wonder why that new rib at 4-1/2" is shown...I would hate to omit a neede d reinforcement. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
Michael, I believe what you are seeing is a tail rib, and it is actually being shown in the center section (not the left wing). The large "rear view - full size" drawing at the top of the print shows the center section to right wing connection. Under the rib you are wondering about it notates "tail rib location". If you look at the overhead view of the center section in bottom right corner of the sheet you can see the two tail ribs going from the rear spar to the trailing edge. That is how it reads to me.... Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer 3 > piece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have 14 > ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new center > section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the new > center section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" away > from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: > > Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? > Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing > longer) > Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new > wing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" > or 4-1/2" spacing? > How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? > > I wonder why that new rib at 4-1/2" is shown...I would hate to omit a > needed reinforcement. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
No, that's not it. That center section view on the bottom rightof the print, on the left of the center section itself, the left wing has the end rib, then inboard of that at, I believe, 4-1/2" is another rib. I do not have the prints with me now, but that is what I remember seeing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
Michael, http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/3007383963/sizes/o/ Red circle surrounds the aft portion of the end rib on the left side of the center section. To the left of that would be the end rib of the left wing panel. Blue circle surrounds the tail rib in the left side of the center section. Is that what you are talking about? Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > No, that's not it. That center section view on the bottom rightof the > print, on the left of the center section itself, the left wing has the end > rib, then inboard of that at, I believe, 4-1/2" is another rib. I do not > have the prints with me now, but that is what I remember seeing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
Insofar as the rib spacing goes, it appears on the one piece wing that the spacing indicated is "on center" for the ribs. If you add the spacing up from the center of the wing to the tip (excluding the 1" wing tip bow) you arrive at 14" 5', which jives with the length shown for the spar. Therefore the actual spacing between the ribs would be 1/2" less than the on center spacing shown (per 1/2" wide capstrips). Does that sound reasonable? Here's my conclusion on rib count. If you look at the "rear view - full size" print at the top of the sheet, you can see it shows 14 1/2" from the center of the nose rib to the end of the center section spar. Then there is 1/2" from end of the wing spar to the end of the wing panel butt rib. An additional 1/4" would get us to the center of the wing panel butt rib. Therefore: center of the nose rib to the center of the wing panel butt rib should equal 15 1/4". Based on what I can see on the overhead view of the center section it is 8 1/4" from the center of the wing panel butt rib to the next rib. Adding 15 1/4" to 8 1/4" arrives at 23 1/2". This is the same spacing as shown on the one piece wing from the center of the nose rib to the second rib from the center (12 1/2" + 11"). Since we have a common point of reference between the two types of wings, we can therefore count up the ribs. We should have 14 ribs in each wing panel; two wings means 28 ribs. There are 2 full size ribs in the center section, bringing the count to 30. Then you have the three partials, one nose rib and two tail ribs. Can someone check my math please? I haven't had breakfast yet, so no guarantees.... :P Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer 3 > piece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have 14 > ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new center > section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the new > center section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" away > from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: > > Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? > Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing > longer) > Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new > wing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" > or 4-1/2" spacing? > How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
Outstanding! - OK, the-red-circle is the C.S. end rib. To the left of that, is the win g end rib. 8-1/4" next to that is the rib in question. If you go back to my original question, with this new info., can you answer the questions? Than ks. Pictures speak a 1,000,000,000....words. --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 9:52 AM Michael, http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/3007383963/sizes/o/ Red circle surrounds the aft portion of the end rib on the left side of the center section. To the left of that would be the end rib of the left wing panel. Blue circle surrounds the tail rib in the left side of the center se ction. Is that what you are talking about? Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Michael Perez wr ote: No, that's not it. That center section view on the bottom rightof the print , on the left of the center section itself, the left wing has the end rib, then inboard of that at, I believe, 4-1/2" is another rib. I do not have th e prints with me now, but that is what I remember seeing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wing print and center section
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Seems to fit with what I recall. I know I built 30 full size ribs, plus one "Wall Hanger", because I remember being able to build one rib a night, and it took exactly one month (and it wasn't February) Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section Insofar as the rib spacing goes, it appears on the one piece wing that the spacing indicated is "on center" for the ribs. If you add the spacing up from the center of the wing to the tip (excluding the 1" wing tip bow) you arrive at 14" 5', which jives with the length shown for the spar. Therefore the actual spacing between the ribs would be 1/2" less than the on center spacing shown (per 1/2" wide capstrips). Does that sound reasonable? Here's my conclusion on rib count. If you look at the "rear view - full size" print at the top of the sheet, you can see it shows 14 1/2" from the center of the nose rib to the end of the center section spar. Then there is 1/2" from end of the wing spar to the end of the wing panel butt rib. An additional 1/4" would get us to the center of the wing panel butt rib. Therefore: center of the nose rib to the center of the wing panel butt rib should equal 15 1/4". Based on what I can see on the overhead view of the center section it is 8 1/4" from the center of the wing panel butt rib to the next rib. Adding 15 1/4" to 8 1/4" arrives at 23 1/2". This is the same spacing as shown on the one piece wing from the center of the nose rib to the second rib from the center (12 1/2" + 11"). Since we have a common point of reference between the two types of wings, we can therefore count up the ribs. We should have 14 ribs in each wing panel; two wings means 28 ribs. There are 2 full size ribs in the center section, bringing the count to 30. Then you have the three partials, one nose rib and two tail ribs. Can someone check my math please? I haven't had breakfast yet, so no guarantees.... :P Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Michael Perez wrote: I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer 3 piece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have 14 ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new center section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the new center section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" away from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing longer) Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new wing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" or 4-1/2" spacing? How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
I see that my wording was incorrect below. Using that same C.S. view, you h ave the left wing end rib, then OUTBOARD of that, towards the wing tip, is another rib shown at 8.25". That rib does NOT show on the original wing pri nt with the whole left wing shown-with the 11"-12" spacing.- Again, wit h this new info, I am wondering about the original questions asked. --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 9:52 AM Michael, http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/3007383963/sizes/o/ Red circle surrounds the aft portion of the end rib on the left side of the center section. To the left of that would be the end rib of the left wing panel. Blue circle surrounds the tail rib in the left side of the center se ction. Is that what you are talking about? Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Michael Perez wr ote: No, that's not it. That center section view on the bottom rightof the print , on the left of the center section itself, the left wing has the end rib, then inboard of that at, I believe, 4-1/2" is another rib. I do not have th e prints with me now, but that is what I remember seeing. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
The 3 piece wing spars are shown at 13'-2.5" and you have the 29" center se ction. That C.S. drawing shows the rib in question as mentioned. With no ri b spacing/numbers given, how many ribs per wing and how does that "new" rib fit in? --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 10:15 AM Insofar as the rib spacing goes, it appears on the one piece wing that the spacing indicated is "on center" for the ribs. If you add the spacing up fr om the center of the wing to the tip (excluding the 1" wing tip bow) you ar rive at 14" 5', which jives with the length shown for the spar. Therefore t he actual spacing between the ribs would be 1/2" less than the on center sp acing shown (per 1/2" wide capstrips). Does that sound reasonable? Here's my conclusion on rib count. If you look at the "rear view - full siz e" print at the top of the sheet, you can see it shows 14 1/2" from the cen ter of the nose rib to the end of the center section spar. Then there is 1/ 2" from end of the wing spar to the end of the wing panel butt rib. An addi tional 1/4" would get us to the center of the wing panel butt rib. Therefor e: center of the nose rib to the center of the wing panel butt rib should e qual 15 1/4". Based on what I can see on the overhead view of the center section it is 8 1/4" from the center of the wing panel butt rib to the next rib. Adding 15 1/4" to 8 1/4" arrives at 23 1/2". This is the same spacing as shown on the one piece wing from the center of the nose rib to the second rib from the center (12 1/2" + 11"). Since we have a common point of reference between the two types of wings, w e can therefore count up the ribs. We should have 14 ribs in each wing pane l; two wings means 28 ribs. There are 2 full size ribs in the center sectio n, bringing the count to 30. Then you have the three partials, one nose rib and two tail ribs. Can someone check my math please? I haven't had breakfast yet, so no guaran tees.... - :P Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Michael Perez wr ote: I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer 3 pi ece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have 14 ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new cente r section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the new c enter section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" away from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: - Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing longer) Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new w ing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" or 4-1/2" spacing? How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
>From the center of the nose rib (i.e. center of the wing) to the left end of the center section spar would be 14 1/2". Add that to the 13' 2 1/2" length of the wing spar and you have 14' 5". This is same length as the distance from the center of the nose rib to the end of the spar of the one piece wing. For the purpose of visualizing how to space the ribs, consider the circled ribs to be the same rib: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/3007515273/sizes/l/ >From that rib going outboard your ribs on the three piece wing would be spaced the same as the ribs on the one piece wing. From that rib going inboard you reference the three piece wing drawing. Does that help? Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > The 3 piece wing spars are shown at 13'-2.5" and you have the 29" center > section. That C.S. drawing shows the rib in question as mentioned. With no > rib spacing/numbers given, how many ribs per wing and how does that "new" > rib fit in? > > --- On *Thu, 11/6/08, Ryan Mueller * wrote: > > From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 10:15 AM > > Insofar as the rib spacing goes, it appears on the one piece wing that the > spacing indicated is "on center" for the ribs. If you add the spacing up > from the center of the wing to the tip (excluding the 1" wing tip bow) you > arrive at 14" 5', which jives with the length shown for the spar. Therefore > the actual spacing between the ribs would be 1/2" less than the on center > spacing shown (per 1/2" wide capstrips). Does that sound reasonable? > > Here's my conclusion on rib count. If you look at the "rear view - full > size" print at the top of the sheet, you can see it shows 14 1/2" from the > center of the nose rib to the end of the center section spar. Then there is > 1/2" from end of the wing spar to the end of the wing panel butt rib. An > additional 1/4" would get us to the center of the wing panel butt rib. > Therefore: center of the nose rib to the center of the wing panel butt rib > should equal 15 1/4". > > Based on what I can see on the overhead view of the center section it is 8 > 1/4" from the center of the wing panel butt rib to the next rib. Adding 15 > 1/4" to 8 1/4" arrives at 23 1/2". This is the same spacing as shown on the > one piece wing from the center of the nose rib to the second rib from the > center (12 1/2" + 11"). > > Since we have a common point of reference between the two types of wings, > we can therefore count up the ribs. We should have 14 ribs in each wing > panel; two wings means 28 ribs. There are 2 full size ribs in the center > section, bringing the count to 30. Then you have the three partials, one > nose rib and two tail ribs. > > Can someone check my math please? I haven't had breakfast yet, so no > guarantees.... :P > > Ryan > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > >> I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer >> 3 piece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have >> 14 ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new >> center section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the >> new center section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" >> away from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: >> >> Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? >> Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the >> wing longer) >> Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new >> wing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" >> or 4-1/2" spacing? >> How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
Yes, that is more or less what I was wondering. I have talked with Mike Cuy and he still has his original hand drawings he figured out back in the day . Between his info., yours and another good look at the prints when I get h ome, I can sleep tonight. - Thanks for the help. The addition of the pics were great! --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:04 AM >From the center of the nose rib (i.e. center of the wing) to the left end of the center section spar would be 14 1/2". Add that to the 13' 2 1/2" len gth of the wing spar and you have 14' 5". This is same length as the distan ce from the center of the nose rib to the end of the spar of the one piece wing. For the purpose of visualizing how to space the ribs, consider the circled ribs to be the same rib: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/3007515273/sizes/l/ >From that rib going outboard your ribs on the three piece wing would be spa ced the same as the ribs on the one piece wing. From that rib going inboard you reference the three piece wing drawing. Does that help? Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Michael Perez wr ote: The 3 piece wing spars are shown at 13'-2.5" and you have the 29" center se ction. That C.S. drawing shows the rib in question as mentioned. With no ri b spacing/numbers given, how many ribs per wing and how does that "new" rib fit in? --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 10:15 AM Insofar as the rib spacing goes, it appears on the one piece wing that the spacing indicated is "on center" for the ribs. If you add the spacing up fr om the center of the wing to the tip (excluding the 1" wing tip bow) you ar rive at 14" 5', which jives with the length shown for the spar. Therefore t he actual spacing between the ribs would be 1/2" less than the on center sp acing shown (per 1/2" wide capstrips). Does that sound reasonable? Here's my conclusion on rib count. If you look at the "rear view - full siz e" print at the top of the sheet, you can see it shows 14 1/2" from the cen ter of the nose rib to the end of the center section spar. Then there is 1/ 2" from end of the wing spar to the end of the wing panel butt rib. An addi tional 1/4" would get us to the center of the wing panel butt rib. Therefor e: center of the nose rib to the center of the wing panel butt rib should e qual 15 1/4". Based on what I can see on the overhead view of the center section it is 8 1/4" from the center of the wing panel butt rib to the next rib. Adding 15 1/4" to 8 1/4" arrives at 23 1/2". This is the same spacing as shown on the one piece wing from the center of the nose rib to the second rib from the center (12 1/2" + 11"). Since we have a common point of reference between the two types of wings, w e can therefore count up the ribs. We should have 14 ribs in each wing pane l; two wings means 28 ribs. There are 2 full size ribs in the center sectio n, bringing the count to 30. Then you have the three partials, one nose rib and two tail ribs. Can someone check my math please? I haven't had breakfast yet, so no guaran tees.... - :P Ryan On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Michael Perez wr ote: I am confused with the way I see the original wing print and the newer 3 pi ece supplement print. On the original, the full left wing looks to have 14 ribs, right up until you get to the middle of the wing, where the new cente r section would be. These ribs are spaced about 11"-12" apart. On the new c enter section print, it shows part of the left wing with a rib 4-1/2" away from the end rib near the center section. My questions are: - Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing longer) Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new w ing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" or 4-1/2" spacing? How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Nov 06, 2008
Ryan, take a look at the attached scan of the plans. All you do is add a new rib in the first 11-inch rib spacing (see picture). You will need 30 ribs plus one for the wall. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212696#212696 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/t_1_193.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Nov 06, 2008
Oops! Sorry Ryan, I see your not the one who asked. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212699#212699 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
This is the conclusion I came up with as well. That "new" rib is inaddition to the "originals". --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Catdesigns wrote: From: Catdesigns <Catdesigns(at)att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:30 AM Oops! Sorry Ryan, I see your not the one who asked. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212699#212699 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Nov 06, 2008
After re reading your original message let me be more specific. Q: Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? A: See picture in my previously attached photo and you will see a new rib added between the first 11-inch rib spacing out from the center of the wing. Q: Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing longer) A: No. Q: Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new wing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" or 4-1/2" spacing? A: No. You will want to slightly adjust the rib spacing else where to clear fittings and wires. Q: How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? A: 30 Q: I wonder why that new rib at 4-1/2" is shown...I would hate to omit a needed reinforcement. A: This has 4-1/2" measurement has me confused me confused. I don't see it on the plans. Perhaps you meant the 8-1/4" measurement on the bottom of the drawing? Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212701#212701 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wing print and center section
yes to the 4.5"/8.25" measurement. I was going from (bad) memory. --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Catdesigns wrote: From: Catdesigns <Catdesigns(at)att.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing print and center section Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:44 AM After re reading your original message let me be more specific. Q: Do you add this "new" rib between the existing ribs shown 11"-12" apart? A: See picture in my previously attached photo and you will see a new rib added between the first 11-inch rib spacing out from the center of the wing. Q: Do you add this "new" rib on the end of the existing ribs? (making the wing longer) A: No. Q: Do you take the original rib count and space them where needed on the new wing so that the cables and the like clear and not worry about the 11", 12" or 4-1/2" spacing? A: No. You will want to slightly adjust the rib spacing else where to clear fittings and wires. Q: How many total ribs are used on each wing section with the 3 piece design? A: 30 Q: I wonder why that new rib at 4-1/2" is shown...I would hate to omit a needed reinforcement. A: This has 4-1/2" measurement has me confused me confused. I don't see it on the plans. Perhaps you meant the 8-1/4" measurement on the bottom of the drawing? Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212701#212701 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Valparasio, Indiana
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
That is a GREAT stop to and from Wisconsin from Ohio or anywhere east of Valparaiso. Great EAA chapter like Jack said serving a very reasonable and good lunch under tents setup nearby the FBO. One year it started to rain and a gent directed me to his personal hangar so the Piet wouldn't get wet. He had a King Air and a British Vampire or some vintage jet in there. Richard S. is there and another gent named Jim who is building a Piet as well. Good group of people. Jim Reed has a fantastic warbird collection to include pristine examples of a Corsair, Mustang, T-28 and more. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
Harvey, Another poster was qauoting the old Grega site. They claimed more room. I don't know. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com> >Sent: Nov 5, 2008 3:29 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences > >I fly a GN-1 Aircamper and if you say that the wing was modified to allow easy access for the front passenger then I say it is still easier for a midget to get in than a full grown person and I can't imagine how tough it must have been for the Pietenpol.They must have crawled in somehow!They must have been smaller than midgets.If I could and I won't ;I wouldn't put a passenger in my front seat.Too dangerous. > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:56 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences > > >Reaction to the claims. First the claims. > >Q: What is the difference between the GN-1 Aircamper and the the original Pietenpol Aircamper? > >A: Here's what's different between the GN-1 Aircamper and the Pietenpol Aircamper: >Modified the structure to accept Piper, Aeronca and early Cessna wing panels. >Modified the airfoil leading edge from the front spar forward to give better stall characteristics. >Relocated the CG to acceptable limits. >Redesigned fuselage structure to accept flat-four aircraft engines, 65 to 85 hp. >Redesigned entire structure to accept Piper landing gear and Piper firewall forward, which in the fifties were in plentiful supply new and used. If not available today, no problem, these can be fabricated, plans show how. >Designed a steel tube, welded fuselage structure. The plans show both wood and steel tube fuselages. >Raised the wing position to allow easier entry and exit for both pilot and passenger. >=========================== >My reaction: > >The plans that Don Pietenpol sells today offer some of these same items, e.g.: > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Assembling hydraulic hoses
From: "ThisOne" <thisone58(at)gmail.com>
Date: Nov 06, 2008
[quote="Woodflier(at)aol.com"]I've been trying all night to screw the nipple from the Aeroquip 491 fitting onto the cut end of some Aeroquip 303 hose to make up brake hoses. Can't seem to get the hose to screw all the way into the fitting. Any tips or tricks on how to get this on. My fingers are raw from pushing and twisting the hose. Tried recutting the hose several times for a clean start - no luck. Matt Paxton Matt, On hose assemblies here we first ream out the line (a punch works fine here), and then apply a lite oil to the nipple and threads (male) and also again on the female portion as well. I hope that this help Regards, Brett Bonaco, Inc. > [b] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212767#212767 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
I have tried unsuccessfully to get into my front seat.I am 5'3" and it is v ery ,very difficult.The crossed rods on the-right side make it very hard to put your arms and torso through in order to get the body far enough over for the left leg and foot to get in.-I have a battery and battery box bo lted to the front seat now anyway and there are only rudder peddles up ther e so I don't fly passengers anyway.I could move the battery to the floor an d put a control stick in there but there are not many pilots around my fiel d that can fit in the rear seat let alone the front seat even if I wanted t o.I laugh at guys who say "oh ya I can get into that";then they try and the y find out mighty fast that it's only for a runt like me.That's the way it was built.Even for me there isn't a whole lot of room in that rear cockpit. -I didn't build it and I was surprised after I bought it just how small i t is.Before I put in a lift door;modifying the mid section wing with hinges etc.,I had to do the limbo to get in.If a taller person was to buy it they would have to move the rudder peddles and perhaps cut some wood.=0A =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Tim Willis <timothywillis@eart hlink.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, November 6, 2008 6:03:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences link.net>=0A=0AHarvey,=0A=0AAnother poster was qauoting the old Grega site. - They claimed more room.- I don't know.=0A=0ATim in central TX=0A=0A-- ---Original Message-----=0A>From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>=0A>Sent: Nov 5, 2008 3:29 PM=0A>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Pie tenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences=0A>=0A>I fly a GN-1 Aircamper and i f you say that the wing was modified to allow easy access for the front pas senger then I say it is still easier for a midget to get in than a full gro wn person and I can't imagine how tough it must have been for the Pietenpol .They must have crawled in somehow!They must have been smaller than midgets .If I could and I won't ;I wouldn't put a passenger in my front seat.Too da ngerous.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>----- Original Message ----=0A>From: Tim Willis <ti mothywillis(at)earthlink.net>=0A>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0A>Sent: Wed nesday, November 5, 2008 12:02:56 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pi s =0A>=0A>Reaction to the claims.- First the claims.=0A>=0A>Q: What is the difference between the GN-1 Aircamper and th e the original Pietenpol Aircamper? =0A>=0A>A: Here's what's different betw een the GN-1 Aircamper and the Pietenpol Aircamper: =0A>Modified the struct ure to accept Piper, Aeronca and early Cessna wing panels. =0A>Modified the airfoil leading edge from the front spar forward to give better stall char acteristics. =0A>Relocated the CG to acceptable limits. =0A>Redesigned fuse lage structure to accept flat-four aircraft engines, 65 to 85 hp. =0A>Redes igned entire structure to accept Piper landing gear and Piper firewall forw ard, which in the fifties were in plentiful supply new and used. If not ava ilable today, no problem, these can be fabricated, plans show how. =0A>Desi gned a steel tube, welded fuselage structure. The plans show both wood and steel tube fuselages. =0A>Raised the wing position to allow easier entry an d exit for both pilot and passenger. =0A>=========== ==================0A>My reaction:=0A>=0A> The plans that Don Pietenpol sells today offer some of these same items, e. ======== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 06, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Reminder
Dear Listers, Just a quick reminder that November is the annual List Fund Raiser. The Matronics Lists are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are provided for my your Contributions during this time of the year. Your personal Contribution makes a difference and keeps all of the Matronics Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free. Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2008
From: "Coen van Wyk" <coenvanwyk(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Pligrimage next year?
Dear list members, >From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the pilgrimage next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would be most welcome. I would like to see someone in Florida as well, while my son wants to visit New York, apparently there is an aircraft carrier in the harbor, with a Blackbird that he HAS to see. I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from there? We will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from Brodhead to Oshkosh? Would there still be camping available then? There is usually a South African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is reserved for customers of one of the organized groups. Will there be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers find a space there? Also, can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so as to have communication? I know some countries do not allow this. Thank you in advance for your comments, Coen van Wyk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "T White" <aa5flyer(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
Date: Nov 07, 2008
If you are going from New York to Wisconsin, you should not miss the US Air Force Museum in Dayton Ohio. http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Coen van Wyk To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 3:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pligrimage next year? Dear list members, From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the pilgrimage next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would be most welcome. I would like to see someone in Florida as well, while my son wants to visit New York, apparently there is an aircraft carrier in the harbor, with a Blackbird that he HAS to see. I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from there? We will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from Brodhead to Oshkosh? Would there still be camping available then? There is usually a South African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is reserved for customers of one of the organized groups. Will there be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers find a space there? Also, can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so as to have communication? I know some countries do not allow this. Thank you in advance for your comments, Coen van Wyk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Hi Coen, I can't answer your questions regarding Oshkosh, having never made the trip myself, but I can give you soma advice regarding travel. Americans are not real big on any form of mass transit besides flying (although that may change with the increasing cost of oil). As a result, there is really only one bus line left in the US - Greyhound. You can probably figure out an itinerary on their web site. However, most Greyhound stations are in the center of older, larger cities, frequently in not so nice areas. You might have trouble getting from the station to a good place to camp at many of your stops. Traveling by bus in this country can be quite an adventure, in both a positive and negative sense. So, here's what I'm proposing - all you listers out there - how many of you can offer Coen and his son a place to stay? If you stopped in Akron,Ohio, I'd be happy to do that, and pick you up and deliver you to the bus station, and I bet there are others who would be willing to do that as well. How about it folks? Kip Gardner North Canton, Ohio On Nov 7, 2008, at 3:57 AM, Coen van Wyk wrote: > Dear list members, > > From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the > pilgrimage next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would be > most welcome. I would like to see someone in Florida as well, while > my son wants to visit New York, apparently there is an aircraft > carrier in the harbor, with a Blackbird that he HAS to see. > > I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from > there? We will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from > Brodhead to Oshkosh? Would there still be camping available then? > There is usually a South African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is > reserved for customers of one of the organized groups. Will there > be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers find a space there? Also, > can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so as to have > communication? I know some countries do not allow this. > > Thank you in advance for your comments, > > Coen van Wyk > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
Coen, That would be great if you and your son could come to the US next year. Getting from Miami to NY is no problem on a commercial airplane. The same from NY to Chicago. But once in Chicago I would recommend renting a car and just drive yourself. Brodhead is a very small town and does not to my knowledge have any public transportation to anywhere. Then it would be about 2.3 hours (123 miles) more to Oshkosh. I have seen the very large South African camping set-up at Camp Scholler at Airventure. They always look like they are having fun. This would be the place for you to stay as I'm sure you would find good camaraderie and advise from those that have done it all before. You would want to arrange this with the South African group ahead of time for sure so you would be included. The Piet activity at Oshkosh has been limited in the 28 years that I have been going. But on some special occasions such as the coming year (80th anniversary) there will be a larger presence. I am very jealous of all the guys that are going to arrive at Oshkosh together in their Piets this next year. I will not be finished with mine in time. There are busses here that go across the country, but I do not believe they are very good for anybody that has the money to do otherwise, plus they take forever to get anywhere because they make many stops along the way. If anyone on this list is more knowledgeable on this subject I would like to hear it also. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
Hello Coen, I would concur with Dan on Greyhound (as that would pretty much be your only cross country bus option). I have ridden Greyhound before, and it isn't that bad if you are going on short trips (4 or 5 hours). But from Miami to NY, or NY to Chicago would be somewhere in the 20 to 24hr range; that might be a bit much on your sanity. Plus the bus fare for such a long trip could be in the ballpark of what a flight would cost you anyhow. If you are visiting someone in Florida maybe they would be able to pick you up at the airport and drive you around while you are visiting, thereby negating the expense of a rental car while in Florida. New York is obviously a large metropolitan city, so I'm sure they're local mass transit system would be workable (like Chicago, where we live). You could probably avoid having to rent a car there if you needed to. You would want to do some pretty good research on your itinerary and where you needed to go, so you could determine bus and train routes ahead of time. It would be a little more difficult just showing up and hoping to "figure it out". O'Hare in Chicago or Gen'l Mitchell in Milwaukee would probably be your best bets for flying into the region for Brodhead and OSH. I would agree with Dan that once you get that far you pretty much have to rent a car. Brodhead is a small town in Wisconsin and there is no mass transit that serves it, which would make getting there and going from there to OSH rather difficult. As Dan mentioned, the South African contigent at OSH seems to be rather big. I'm sure there would be camping available when you get to OSH, but it's going to be more on the outskirts of the campgrounds. If you want to guarantee a camping spot near the South Africans you would want to make liason with that group ASAP to try to figure something out. EAA of South Africa may be able to put you in touch: http://www.eaa.org.za/ ...it also appears that a company called Air Adventure Tours offers trip packages from South Africa to OSH. They may have a hand in the campsite setup, or may at least have contact info for whoever runs it. http://www.airadventure.co.za/ Finally, as far as the phones go, I don't know if you can buy prepaid SIM's for GSM phones from other countries. I would be inclined to think that you would not be able to; the US cell phone market does not play well with others. Contacting someone through EAA South Africa who has made the trip may get you that answer. If that would not be an option, the easiest thing to do would be to just buy a prepaid cell phone when you get to the US. They don't have contracts; just buy a phone and buy cards to add minutes. You can get a Motorola TracFone at Walmart for around $10 (approximately 100 Rand, I believe). Good luck with your planning! Ryan On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 2:57 AM, Coen van Wyk wrote: > Dear list members, > > From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the pilgrimage > next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would be most welcome. I > would like to see someone in Florida as well, while my son wants to visit > New York, apparently there is an aircraft carrier in the harbor, with a > Blackbird that he HAS to see. > > I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from there? We > will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from Brodhead to Oshkosh? > Would there still be camping available then? There is usually a South > African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is reserved for customers of one of > the organized groups. Will there be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers > find a space there? Also, can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so > as to have communication? I know some countries do not allow this. > > Thank you in advance for your comments, > > Coen van Wyk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
For discussion purposes, would a train be easier and more practical, safer and less costly and more comfortable than a bus? I am certain from Miami he could take the rail system to NYC 7th Ave Grand Central Station then cross town the Aircraft carrier, for some reason I was thinking it was near Fulton Street area and Battery Park which could be a pretty good hoof. The back to the train to going from NYC train to Chicago to or Milwaukee (by way of Philadelphia possibly) then car to Brodhead which is no big jump. I am certain anyone coming through Chicago or Milwaukee can pick them up and provide car transport to Brodhead. Its a bunch easier to sleep on the train than on a bus plus meals may be easier gotten on the train. Just a possible routing that may be faster and more efficent. John In a message dated 11/7/2008 6:55:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net writes: Hi Coen, I can't answer your questions regarding Oshkosh, having never made the trip myself, but I can give you soma advice regarding travel. Americans are not real big on any form of mass transit besides flying (although that may change with the increasing cost of oil). As a result, there is really only one bus line left in the US - Greyhound. You can probably figure out an itinerary on their web site. However, most Greyhound stations are in the center of older, larger cities, frequently in not so nice areas. You might have trouble getting from the station to a good place to camp at many of your stops. Traveling by bus in this country can be quite an adventure, in both a positive and negative sense. So, here's what I'm proposing - all you listers out there - how many of you can offer Coen and his son a place to stay? If you stopped in Akron,Ohio, I'd be happy to do that, and pick you up and deliver you to the bus station, and I bet there are others who would be willing to do that as well. How about it folks? Kip Gardner North Canton, Ohio On Nov 7, 2008, at 3:57 AM, Coen van Wyk wrote: Dear list members, >From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the pilgrimage next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would be most welcome. I would like to see someone in Florida as well, while my son wants to visit New York, apparently there is an aircraft carrier in the harbor, with a Blackbird that he HAS to see. I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from there? We will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from Brodhead to Oshkosh? Would there still be camping available then? There is usually a South African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is reserved for customers of one of the organized groups. Will there be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers find a space there? Also, can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so as to have communication? I know some countries do not allow this. Thank you in advance for your comments, Coen van Wyk href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// forums.matronics.com (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Coen I will repeat some info from others and add to it. You have many options depending on what you end up wanting to see and how much time you have. Going to Miami, and travelling to N.Y., the AMTRAK train would be much cleaner and safer than bus. At times AMTRAK has unlimited passes countrywide, but they don't go to most places. Too many stops on bus in small towns and out of the way places. Yes, I have travelled that way in the past. However renting a car would give you lots of flexibility, but you would use several days of your trip driving. Flying into N.Y. was an option you mentioned. and that aircraft carrier is quite a sight. But there is the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in Washington D.C. which is amazing also and well worth a full days visit. If you were to drive, Brodhead, Wi. is about 14 hours drive from D.C. There are 2 options I didn't see others post; You could plan a destination to the U.S. of N.Y. or Miami, rent a car and return trip home from Chicago. Several car companies will rent cars with drop offs at other airports. Second, Have you considered renting a small motor home? There is a company called Cruise America that rents them, fully equipped. There are plenty of places to stay for the nights and mostly for free. Lots of freeway rest stops, truck stops and parking lots of stores that allow that. The summer months also have many fly ins and air shows around the country along with music festivals and such. When you come up with a basic plan, many of us will do what we can to help. Dick N. St. Paul, MN. ----- Original Message ----- From: Coen van Wyk To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pligrimage next year? Dear list members, From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the pilgrimage next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would be most welcome. I would like to see someone in Florida as well, while my son wants to visit New York, apparently there is an aircraft carrier in the harbor, with a Blackbird that he HAS to see. I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from there? We will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from Brodhead to Oshkosh? Would there still be camping available then? There is usually a South African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is reserved for customers of one of the organized groups. Will there be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers find a space there? Also, can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so as to have communication? I know some countries do not allow this. Thank you in advance for your comments, Coen van Wyk ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Subject: Re: Pligrimage next year?
On the cell phone you should be able to get one pretty easily. There are some prepaid plans that are affordable and would work just fine. As Dick says, It is really easy to end up spending your holiday driving the US instead of enjoying the US. I tell my friends from Europe that come to visit to just come to Texas and don't plan on visiting Texas, New York and Hollywood. I would look at flying as close as possible to Oshkosh and/or Broadhead and drive there. Unless you are happy driving 4 or 5 hours each day and visiting various places. Pull up Mapquest.com and plot some trips from various locations to OSH or Broadhead. That will give you an idea of how much driving it takes. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008 11:00 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pligrimage next year? > Coen > I will repeat some info from others and add to it. You have many > options depending on what you end up wanting to see and how much > time you have. Going to Miami, and travelling to N.Y., the AMTRAK > train would be much cleaner and safer than bus. At times AMTRAK > has unlimited passes countrywide, but they don't go to most > places. Too many stops on bus in small towns and out of the way > places. Yes, I have travelled that way in the past. However > renting a car would give you lots of flexibility, but you would > use several days of your trip driving. > Flying into N.Y. was an option you mentioned. and that aircraft > carrier is quite a sight. But there is the Smithsonian Air and > Space Museum in Washington D.C. which is amazing also and well > worth a full days visit. If you were to drive, Brodhead, Wi. is > about 14 hours drive from D.C. > There are 2 options I didn't see others post; You could plan a > destination to the U.S. of N.Y. or Miami, rent a car and return > trip home from Chicago. Several car companies will rent cars with > drop offs at other airports. Second, Have you considered renting > a small motor home? There is a company called Cruise America that > rents them, fully equipped. There are plenty of places to stay > for the nights and mostly for free. Lots of freeway rest stops, > truck stops and parking lots of stores that allow that. The > summer months also have many fly ins and air shows around the > country along with music festivals and such. > When you come up with a basic plan, many of us will do what we can > to help. > Dick N. > St. Paul, MN. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Coen van Wyk > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:57 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pligrimage next year? > > > Dear list members, > > From a long time lurker: my son and I are thinking of doing the > pilgrimage next year, to Brodhead and Oshkosh. Your advice would > be most welcome. I would like to see someone in Florida as well, > while my son wants to visit New York, apparently there is an > aircraft carrier in the harbor, with a Blackbird that he HAS to > see. > > I thought to fly from South Africa into Miami, take a bus from > there? We will be camping, but is it practical to take a bus from > Brodhead to Oshkosh? Would there still be camping available then? > There is usually a South African campsite at Oshkosh, maybe it is > reserved for customers of one of the organized groups. Will there > be a Piet campsite? Would Piet admirers find a space there? Also, > can one buy prepaid sim cards for GSM phones, so as to have > communication? I know some countries do not allow this. > > Thank you in advance for your comments, > > Coen van Wyk > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
From: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Pietenpol family -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212936#212936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
Ok. What exactly about what they are selling do you not understand? If you check their website it has plenty of information about the Pietenpol designs: http://www.pressenter.com/~apietenp/ Ryan On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 1:49 PM, kmccune wrote: > > Pietenpol family > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Kevin, You say you are researching for your next project. If you (or anyone else) are considering buying Grega GN-1 plans, I think you might be out of luck, as the GN-1 plans have not been offered for sale for over a year. The plans offered for sale by the Pietenpol family are not plans for a "Modern Pietenpol". They sell plans for the original 1933 Ford Model A powered "Improved Air Camper", as designed by Bernard Pietenpol, and drawn by a teen-aged Orrin Hoopman (I think 8 sheets 24" x 36"). Also available from the Pietenpol family are the supplementary plans, which include the necessary information and drawings if you intend to power your project with a small Continental or a Corvair engine, instead of the Ford Model A (I think this is 6 sheets 24" x 36"). There is also a drawing available with details on how to build the three-piece wing - as opposed to the one-piece original wing design (1 sheet 24" x 36"). Not clear as to what else you are unsure about. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212960#212960 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jonathan Ragle <jon95gt(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
Date: Nov 07, 2008
Man... I bought mine but I have a lot of respect for you guys that build th ese things. You are better men than I. Building any aircraft (and I have) is a task. Building from 8 sheets is astonishing.> Subject: Pietenpol-Lis t: Re: Piet - GN! differences> From: billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> Date: Fri=2C 7 -List message posted by: "Bill Church" > > Kevin=2C > You say you are researching for your next project. If you (or anyone else ) are considering buying Grega GN-1 plans=2C I think you might be out of lu ck=2C as the GN-1 plans have not been offered for sale for over a year.> > The plans offered for sale by the Pietenpol family are not plans for a "Mod ern Pietenpol". They sell plans for the original 1933 Ford Model A powered "Improved Air Camper"=2C as designed by Bernard Pietenpol=2C and drawn by a teen-aged Orrin Hoopman (I think 8 sheets 24" x 36"). Also available from the Pietenpol family are the supplementary plans=2C which include the neces sary information and drawings if you intend to power your project with a sm all Continental or a Corvair engine=2C instead of the Ford Model A (I think this is 6 sheets 24" x 36"). There is also a drawing available with detail s on how to build the three-piece wing - as opposed to the one-piece origin al wing design (1 sheet 24" x 36").> > Not clear as to what else you are un sure about. > > Bill C.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://for ==============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast er_112008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 07, 2008
From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Words to live by
"If you are looking for perfect safety, you will do well to sit on a > fence and watch the birds; but if you really wish to learn, you must > mount a machine and become acquainted with its tricks by actual trial." > > - Wilbur Wright - =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "ldmill" <lorin.miller(at)emerson.com>
Date: Nov 08, 2008
Interesting comments about Chinese cranks. Most people don't realize it, but the US has really downsized its foundry capability, and any expansions automatically go to low cost countries i.e. China. Over the last 15 years or so, US industries have been exporting huge amounts of metallurgical technology and all the associated quality programs to China. I work for a business that makes very large industrial equipment (steel and exotic alloy intensive), and during project bids we will occasionally see requirements that state US content. In most of these situations, US poured castings are more expensive (1.5 to 2x) take twice as long to get, and are the same quality as what comes out of China (and more than occasionally worse, actually almost all major company's quality management will tell you that the majority of China metal quality programs are now on par with, and in many instances better than those in the US.) Only recently have the export laws really cracked down on US companies exporting the science behind high technology metals. Import/Export compliance is a legal mess to deal with, but it is actually starting to help us keep some home based technology at home. FYI - Actually, without "China Steel" you would be heating your house with wood this year and would be getting to work on horseback. There wouldn't be any natural gas, oil or gasoline available at all this year. It all flows through pipes and valves cast/forged or rolled in China. I hate to see so much good US developed technology exported, but if it isn't, most of the time we would not be able to afford the products it goes into. Lorin -not a China buff - just letting you know the unfortunate state of affairs with the China metal industry -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX Pietenpol next up Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213027#213027 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "ldmill" <lorin.miller(at)emerson.com>
Date: Nov 08, 2008
Hey Gene - on the subject of North Slope - are you still traveling up there? I haven't been up in about 10 years now. Last trip was November of 1997. Minus 35 to -40f temps, but it was beautiful. Arctic Fox running around. There was a Polar bear vs. Brown bear (I think - it may have been a black beer though) fight the day before I got there. Blood all over by the pipeline. While there, one of the I&E guys accidentally tripped CGF-1 offline and the whole facility went on flare for several hours until they got the control system up and running again. It was around midnight when it happened, but you could have read the fine print on a legal contract outside with no lights on and your eyes closed... Regarding steel quality - I totally agree that there have been quality issues in the past on the more standard types of equipment - we've all experienced that. But of the tighter controlled stuff (like I deal with), it's pretty good now-a-days. Probably 75+% of the actuators/valves and regulators installed up there now are ex-US castings/forgings. Wish it was a beautiful Tennessee day here in Iowa. We got a bunch of snow yesterday, it's cold, and of course - it's windy. Cheers! Lorin -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX Pietenpol next up Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213042#213042 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Nov 08, 2008
I've noticed some comments about the size of Piet cockpits, pilots, and passengers. Although the cockpits are not spacious, for the normal sized person they are adequate. I'm 6' 3" and about 185 lbs. I fit very nicely in the rear cockpit. It is straight off of the long fuselage plans. I don't have a flop on the wing so a certain technique has to be exercised to get in, but once that is mastered getting in and out is a very easy. I, like many other Piet pilots have flown many passengers. That's the beauty of the design, giving rides. The front cockpit is a little more snug than the rear, but again with the right technique it is also very simple. Again at my height I have no trouble at all getting in and out. My most common passenger is my dad and he is about 6' 2" and around 225 lbs. I've got to say there is nothing quite like sharing a sunset that just seems to hang on at the end of a long summer day or the misty covered ground right at sunrise. Giving rides is probably the most enjoyable part of my whole Pietenpol experience. From building the first rib several years ago to taking my daughter to breakfast last weekend. People really remember a ride in a Pietenpol. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213067#213067 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Piet - GN! differences
Maybe some of us should make YouTube videos showing our various boarding/deplaning techniques. I'll try to remember to bring my camera to the field next time. >...I don't have a flop on the wing so a certain technique has to be >exercised to get in, but once that is mastered getting in and out is >a very easy... The front cockpit is a little more snug than the >rear, but again with the right technique it is also very simple. >Again at my height I have no trouble at all getting in and out. My >most common passenger is my dad and he is about 6' 2" and around 225 >lbs. ... -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 09, 2008
Subject: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
Dear Piet listers, Please be advised our overreaching federal government is at it again, slowl y but surely trying to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety". It is only going to get worse with this new administration we have. This proposal does not effect us directly, but we are next. Do not doubt it. Dan H. TSA Aviation Proposals Raise Civil Liberties Questions EAA and allies appeal for extension of comment period October 29, 2008 =94 Upon receiving and reviewing a Notice of Propos ed Rulemaking (NPRM) that the Transportation Security Administration issued to day, EAA immediately objected to the posted public-comment period of only 60 days. Th e NPRM calls for sweeping new security requirements on the operation of all aircraft exceeding 12,500 pounds =93 commercial and personal-use airc raft alike. Because of the onerous requirements and encroachment on personal freedoms suggested in the NPRM, EAA contends that the NPRM should have a comment per iod of no less than 120 days. Several allies, including Missouri Congressman Sa m Graves, an active EAA member, have joined EAA in filing objections to the comment period's 60-day duration. "These proposed rules would have dramatic ramifications for aircraft operators," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and regulato ry affairs. =9CFurthermore, they raise serious questions in the areas of interstate commerce, government authority, civil liberties, and Constitutional rights. Rulemaking proposals that present the potential for such dramatic consequen ces require more than a mere 60 days for public to study and comment on them. =9D The TSA's proposed rules would impose numerous requirements on the operator s of these aircraft, even those operating the aircraft for private and personal use, including the following * The owner/operator must assign a security director to oversee fligh t operations. * The security director must obtain TSA approval for the security program associated with every operation of the aircraft. * The security program must be audited and approved by the TSA. * The owner/operator must submit fingerprints of all flight-crew members to the TSA. * The owner/operator must submit a passenger manifest for each flight to the TSA. "Once again we're seeing an unwarranted and unrealistic hyper-focus on airplanes as potential instruments of terror, when real-life experience sho ws that trucks, automobiles, and computers can pose equal, or even greater, threats. This is about our nation's ongoing struggle to strike the right balance between upholding the personal freedoms and rights that make our country great and taking the nec essary steps to address and prevent legitimate threats to our security," Lawrence said. "We haven't seen undue restrictions on the use of trucks, for example, because there's an understanding that these are important to interstate com merce and the personal freedom to move persons and objects about the country. We need to foster the same understanding when it comes to the role of personal aircraft in our society," Lawrence said. The NPRM's 60-day comment period e xpires Dec. 29, 2008. If the TSA adopts the recommendation of EAA and its allies, the 120-day comment period would end March 31, 2009. **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all othe r Holiday needs. Search Now. ttp://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 09, 2008
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From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 09, 2008
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:56:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, amsafetyc(at)aol.com writes: what's this country coming to? Good buddy, hate to tell you but it's not coming, IT'S HERE **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: "Ken Chambers" <ken.riffic(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
Politics has no place here. Lets cut the screwball predictions and stick with the regulations. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > Wow, this in not about national security but more a out more govt limitin g > our ability. Between this and the Obama civil national security agency > proposed in his speech. We should have all our freedoms revoked or > controlled to the point of asking permission then providing justification to > exercise them. > > Brown shirts and papers what's this country coming to? > > John > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBe > > ------------------------------ > *From*: HelsperSew(at)aol.com > *To*: > *Subject*: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" > > > Dear Piet listers, > > > Please be advised our overreaching federal government is at it again, > slowly but surely trying to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety". I t > is only going to get worse with this new administration we have. This > proposal does not effect us directly, but we are next. Do not doubt it. Dan > H. > > > TSA Aviation Proposals Raise Civil Liberties Questions > > *EAA and allies appeal for extension of comment period* > > *October 29, 2008* =97 Upon receiving and reviewing a Notice of Proposed > Rulemaking (NPRM) that the Transportation Security Administration issued > today, EAA immediately objected to the posted public-comment period of > only 60 days. The NPRM calls for sweeping new security requirements on th e > operation of *all* aircraft exceeding 12,500 pounds ' commercial and > personal-use aircraft alike. > > Because of the onerous requirements and encroachment on personal freedoms > suggested in the NPRM, EAA contends that the NPRM should have a comment > period of no less than 120 days. Several allies, including Missouri > Congressman Sam Graves, an active EAA member, have joined EAA in filing > objections to the comment period's 60-day duration. > > "These proposed rules would have dramatic ramifications for aircraft > operators," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and > regulatory affairs. "Furthermore, they raise serious questions in the are as > of interstate commerce, government authority, civil liberties, and > Constitutional rights. Rulemaking proposals that present the potential fo r > such dramatic consequences require more than a mere 60 days for public to > study and comment on them." > The TSA's proposed rules would impose numerous requirements on the > operators of these aircraft, even those operating the aircraft for privat e > and personal use, including the following > > > - The owner/operator must assign a security director to oversee flight > operations. > - The security director must obtain TSA approval for the security > program associated with every operation of the aircraft. > - The security program must be audited and approved by the TSA. > - The owner/operator must submit fingerprints of all flight-crew > members to the TSA. > - The owner/operator must submit a passenger manifest for *each* fligh t > to the TSA. > > "Once again we're seeing an unwarranted and unrealistic hyper-focus on > airplanes as potential instruments of terror, when real-life experience > shows that trucks, automobiles, and > > > computers can pose equal, or even greater, threats. This is about our > nation's ongoing struggle to strike the right balance between upholding t he > personal freedoms and rights that make our country great and taking the > necessary steps to address and prevent legitimate threats to our security ," > Lawrence said. > > "We haven't seen undue restrictions on the use of trucks, for example, > because there's an understanding that these are important to interstate > commerce and the personal freedom to move persons and objects about the > country. We need to foster the same understanding when it comes to the ro le > of personal aircraft in our society," Lawrence said. > The NPRM's 60-day comment period expires Dec. 29, 2008. If the TSA adopts > the recommendation of EAA and its allies, the 120-day comment period woul d > end March 31, 2009. > > > ------------------------------ > AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday > needs. Search Now. > ===================== * > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks
Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar.- I made brackets similar to yours and Mike C's.- Another topic:- Mike ment ined to me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use.- I'm instal ling a nose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascolator.- Do you have comments on these components?- I am especiall y interested in learning about the controls for the valve.- Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel?- It looks like a lot of builders ar e using the T handle control cable from Aircraft Spruce.- Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? Have you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is c onparable to-the mini ACS ball valve?-=0A=0ASo any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated.- ball valves, controll types to actuate th e valve and gascolators.=0A=0AThanks again.=0A=0Ajohn egan=0Asnow flurries here in Wisconsion today=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF rom: "Phillips, Jack" =0ATo: pietenpol-li st(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A=0AJohn,=0A- =0AHere is what I did at the spar.- I made a fitting from =BE=94 x =BE=94 6061-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot.- At the lift strut I did exactly like Don Emch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift strut and welded it too.- Here is a picture:=0A-=0A-=0AJack Phillips =0ANX899JP=0ARaleigh, NC=0A-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AF rom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list- server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan=0ASent: Monday, November 03, 2 008 3:44 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-Lis t: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A-=0AThanks Don, however I am -curious about the attachment at the spar, not at-the strut.- What di d you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment.=0A- =0ACan you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well?- I lik e it.=0A-=0Ajohn=0Agreenville , wi=0A-=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A=0AFrom:Don Emch =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.c om=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: R e: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message poste d by: "Don Emch" =0A=0AHi John,=0A=0AThere are several way s to do it.- This was my method.- I welded a tube in to the strut and p ut an eye bolt in.- Check out the fly in the picture too!- Huh.=0A=0Aht tp://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG=0A=0ADo n Emch=0ANX899DE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic =0A =0A =0A_______________ __________________________________=0A=0AThis message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary=0Aor otherwise priva te information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender =0Aimmediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you i s prohibited.=0A=0ADansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japane se - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?
Thanks Don and Dan and all on the recent answers to my jury strut attachmen t questions.- This all helps me very much.- Having fun finally working on these little details.- Next steps, learning my way through the fuel sy stem.=0A=0AJohn e.=0Agreenville, wi.=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0AFrom: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matr onics.com=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 8:34:21 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol- List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List messag e posted by: "Don Emch" =0A=0AJohn,=0A=0ASorry about that. - I guess I can't tell the difference between spar and strut.- I did my spar attachment just like Mike Cuy's.- Bent some flat stock into an angl e.- I think it might have been .063".- Hey Jack, yeah drilling those ra tes right up there with drilling the spars.- Makes for a few tense moment s.=0A=0ADon Emch=0ANX899DE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212190#212190=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =========================0A ======0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 09, 2008
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
Ken, I do not consider this politics. There is no partisanship here. This is a clear example of an over-reaching government trying to overstep their bounds by curtailing our individual liberties and freedoms. The only reason our country is the leader of the world today is freedom. Not as any result of what the government did "for us". All you need to do is look at Europe and see how little flying is done there. The government has put so many restrictions and taxes in place it has stifled private flying almost to extinction in some cases. Last summer right before Brodhead we had some Swiss fellows visit here at Poplar Grove. The man and his son were building a Hatz biplane. He told me that when they finish, they will only be able to fly it 20 hours per year because of the huge expenses due to the taxes, take-off and landing fees, and government restrictions. He was extremely envious of our freedoms here. He said that the flying-friendly atmosphere we enjoy here is unheard of in Switzerland. We must fight these clowns in Washington that are running the government at every opportunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks
Date: Nov 09, 2008
Hi John, I ended up using a valve I bought on ebay, but was planning to use the ball valve ACS sells for $23 until I found the very same valve (same manufacturer, same part number) at Home Depot for about $6. As far as I know it should work just fine. I positioned mine so the shutoff is in the rear cockpit, just under the instrument panel. Kept me from having to run another flexible cable to the firewall. Jack NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar. I made brackets similar to yours and Mike C's. Another topic: Mike mentined to me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use. I'm installing a nose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascolator. Do you have comments on these components? I am especially interested in learning about the controls for the valve. Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel? It looks like a lot of builders are using the T handle control cable from Aircraft Spruce. Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? Have you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is conparable to the mini ACS ball valve? So any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated. ball valves, controll types to actuate the valve and gascolators. Thanks again. john egan snow flurries here in Wisconsion today _____ From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? John, Here is what I did at the spar. I made a fitting from =BE=94 x =BE=94 6061-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot. At the lift strut I did exactly like Don Emch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift strut and welded it too. Here is a picture: Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Don, however I am curious about the attachment at the spar, not at the strut. What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment. Can you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well? I like it. john greenville , wi _____ From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Hi John, There are several ways to do it. This was my method. I welded a tube in to the strut and put an eye bolt in. Check out the fly in the picture too! Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediate. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
I guess I'm missing something here, but these rules are for airplanes that weigh 6 1/4 tons. And I further assume that these are commercial commuter flights. I for one ,if I was getting on a commercial flight with my wife and two small daughters, would want a flight that was completely protected from all the out side crap that could happen to them. Guess I'm missing something, but how does this compare to a 600# Piet? PS I work under the wings of the "big Iron" of Newark Airport (NWK) all the time. And it's amazing how efficiently they all run. Obama's my man walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Wow, this in not about national security but more a out more govt limiting our ability. Between this and the Obama civil national security agency proposed in his speech. We should have all our freedoms revoked or controlled to the point of asking permission then providing justification to exercise them. Brown shirts and papers what's this country coming to? John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 06:18:23 EST To: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Dear Piet listers, Please be advised our overreaching federal government is at it again, slowly but surely trying to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety". It is only going to get worse with this new administration we have. This proposal does not effect us directly, but we are next. Do not doubt it. Dan H. TSA Aviation Proposals Raise Civil Liberties Questions EAA and allies appeal for extension of comment period October 29, 2008 =94 Upon receiving and reviewing a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) that the Transportation Security Administration issued today, EAA immediately objected to the posted public-comment period of only 60 days. The NPRM calls for sweeping new security requirements on the operation of all aircraft exceeding 12,500 pounds =93 commercial and personal-use aircraft alike. Because of the onerous requirements and encroachment on personal freedoms suggested in the NPRM, EAA contends that the NPRM should have a comment period of no less than 120 days. Several allies, including Missouri Congressman Sam Graves, an active EAA member, have joined EAA in filing objections to the comment period's 60-day duration. "These proposed rules would have dramatic ramifications for aircraft operators," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and regulatory affairs. =9CFurthermore, they raise serious questions in the areas of interstate commerce, government authority, civil liberties, and Constitutional rights. Rulemaking proposals that present the potential for such dramatic consequences require more than a mere 60 days for public to study and comment on them.=9D The TSA's proposed rules would impose numerous requirements on the operators of these aircraft, even those operating the aircraft for private and personal use, including the following a.. The owner/operator must assign a security director to oversee flight operations. b.. The security director must obtain TSA approval for the security program associated with every operation of the aircraft. c.. The security program must be audited and approved by the TSA. d.. The owner/operator must submit fingerprints of all flight-crew members to the TSA. e.. The owner/operator must submit a passenger manifest for each flight to the TSA. "Once again we're seeing an unwarranted and unrealistic hyper-focus on airplanes as potential instruments of terror, when real-life experience shows that trucks, automobiles, and computers can pose equal, or even greater, threats. This is about our nation's ongoing struggle to strike the right balance between upholding the personal freedoms and rights that make our country great and taking the necessary steps to address and prevent legitimate threats to our security," Lawrence said. "We haven't seen undue restrictions on the use of trucks, for example, because there's an understanding that these are important to interstate commerce and the personal freedom to move persons and objects about the country. We need to foster the same understanding when it comes to the role of personal aircraft in our society," Lawrence said. The NPRM's 60-day comment period expires Dec. 29, 2008. If the TSA adopts the recommendation of EAA and its allies, the 120-day comment period would end March 31, 2009. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. ====================== =EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
Walt, Per the beginning of the proposal: http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/nprm_lasp.pdf ...the TSA wants to apply these changes to all aircraft, corporate or private, that have a maximum certificated takeoff weight above 12,500 lbs. The "private" portion of that proposal would hit the warbird/large vintage aircraft movement in particular. You can bet that non-profits would fall under it as well, whether they consider them corporate or private. Your scheduled or charted airline service currently has such rules in place; they want to extend them to all aircraft over 12,500, not just airliners. It matters to you if you want to see historically significant large aircraft continue to take to the skies at fly-ins and airshows across the country. The cost and BS factor in dealing with this proposal would cause many operators (be they non-profits or individuals) to throw in the towel, especially with the economy in the crapper. I thank Dan for raising the large aircraft issue, but I disagree with his assessment of the future. This proposal is the product of the current administration's continued war against the Constitution, our liberties, and our freedom. I don't know if the president-elect has the answers, but I don't see him continuing down the path the current administration has decided to blaze. I know I shouldn't have said that; oh well, I wanted to respond. I'll leave it at that. If you have an issue with what I said politically please contact me personally and we can discuss; I'll not air it here any further. I hope everyone had a good weekend. We had a blast at the Golf Company USMC Birthday Ball in Madison, WI (233 years and going strong!). Everyone came home safe, we drank far too much beer into the wee hours of the morning, and fun was had by all. Have a good night, Ryan On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 5:24 PM, walt wrote: > I guess I'm missing something here, but these rules are for airplanes > that weigh 6 1/4 tons. > And I further assume that these are commercial commuter flights. > I for one ,if I was getting on a commercial flight with my wife and two > small daughters, would want a flight that was completely protected from all > the out side crap that could happen to them. > Guess I'm missing something, but how does this compare to a 600# Piet? > PS I work under the wings of the "big Iron" of Newark Airport (NWK) all the > time. And it's amazing how efficiently they all run. > Obama's my man > walt evans > NX140DL > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks
Jack, - Any possibility of attaching a few photos of the set-up and valve? - KM Heide - --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Jack Phillips wrote: From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 5:12 PM Hi John, - I ended up using a valve I bought on ebay, but was planning to use the ball valve ACS sells for $23 until I found the very same valve (same manufactur er, same part number) at Home Depot for about $6.- As far as I know it sh ould work just fine. - I positioned mine so the shutoff is in the rear cockpit, just under the ins trument panel.- Kept me from having to run another flexible cable to the firewall. - Jack NX899JP - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks - Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar.- I made brackets similar to yours and Mike C's.- Another topic:- Mike ment ined to me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use.- I'm instal ling a nose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascolator.- Do you have comments on these components?- I am especiall y interested in learning about the controls for the valve.- Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel?- It looks like a lot of builders ar e using the T handle control cable from Aircraft Spruce.- Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? Have you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is c onparable to-the mini ACS ball valve?- - So any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated.- ball valves, c ontroll types to actuate the valve and gascolators. - Thanks again. - john egan snow flurries here in Wisconsion today - From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? John, - Here is what I did at the spar.- I made a fitting from =BE=94 x =BE=94 60 61-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot.- At the lift strut I did exactly li ke Don Emch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift st rut and welded it too.- Here is a picture: - - Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? - Thanks Don, however I am-curious about the attachment at the spar, not at -the strut.- What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment. - Can you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well?- I like i t. - john greenville , wi - From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Hi John, There are several ways to do it.- This was my method.- I welded a tube in to the strut and put an eye bolt in.- Check out the fly in the picture too!- Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic - --_________________________________________________ -This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privi leged, proprietaryor otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the senderimmediate. -Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 09, 2008
From: "Ken Chambers" <ken.riffic(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
Dan When politicians are mentioned by name it quickly becomes political. Obama was clearly mentioned. Might be justifiable if as president Obama had championed some great freedom grab. But he hasn't even taken office! Again, let's stick with specific regulations that effect Pietenpol pilots and avoid vague predictions of impending doom. There are plenty of places for rants of that nature on the Internet. This isn't one of them. Ken On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 4:27 PM, wrote: > Ken, > > I do not consider this politics. There is no partisanship here. This is a > clear example of an over-reaching government trying to overstep their bounds > by curtailing our individual liberties and freedoms. The only reason our > country is the leader of the world today is freedom. Not as any result of > what the government did "for us". All you need to do is look at Europe and > see how little flying is done there. The government has put so many > restrictions and taxes in place it has stifled private flying almost to > extinction in some cases. Last summer right before Brodhead we had some > Swiss fellows visit here at Poplar Grove. The man and his son were building > a Hatz biplane. He told me that when they finish, they will only be able to > fly it 20 hours per year because of the huge expenses due to the taxes, > take-off and landing fees, and government restrictions. He was *extremely > envious* of our freedoms here. He said that the flying-friendly atmosphere > we enjoy here is *unheard of* in Switzerland. We must fight these clowns > in Washington that are running the government at every > opportunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *Wake up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > * > > > ------------------------------ > AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all > other2x1200798498/aol?redir > http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001">Search Now. > > * > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help"
Date: Nov 09, 2008
History repeats. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:56:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, amsafetyc(at)aol.com writes: what's this country coming to? Good buddy, hate to tell you but it's not coming, IT'S HERE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 11/9/2008 2:14 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Fund Raiser List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution
Today! Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort of my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors (LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment tool as your typical magazine subscription! Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/09/08
Date: Nov 10, 2008
From: tbyh(at)aol.com
I object to the attempt by some on this list to tie the Obama administration to the new security proposals which have originated with the HSA and BUSH ADMINISTRATION! Obama isn't even in office and yet?various people in the aviation community are already trying to smear him, as they did during the campaign. What a crock! Bush is the worst president ever, a liar and a congenital screw-up?and don't forget that 9/11 happened on his watch! And he has violated the Constitution and our rights --? don't try to claim it is Obama doing this! Until you have proof that Obama?is trying to do something detrimental to aviation and our hobby, I suggest that statements like "It is?only going to get worse with this new administration we have," are unfounded, a bunch of crap and have no place here.? Of course, you have a right to your opinion, but be prepared for blowback! Otherwise, I suggest we keep politics out of this site! FW Beseler -----Original Message----- From: Pietenpol-List Digest Server <pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Sent: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 1:57 am Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/09/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-11-09&Archive=Pietenpol Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-11-09&Archive=Pietenpol =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/09/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:00 AM - Re: Re: Piet - GN! differences (Jeff Boatright) 2. 03:18 AM - Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (HelsperSew(at)aol.com) 3. 06:55 AM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (amsafetyc(at)aol.com) 4. 07:22 AM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (Isablcorky(at)aol.com) 5. 02:03 PM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (Ken Chambers) 6. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks (John Egan) 7. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? (John Egan) 8. 02:26 PM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (HelsperSew(at)aol.com) 9. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks (Jack Phillips) 10. 03:25 PM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (walt) 11. 03:56 PM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (Ryan Mueller) 12. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 13. 04:51 PM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (Ken Chambers) 14. 10:24 PM - Re: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet - GN! differences Maybe some of us should make YouTube videos showing our various boarding/deplaning techniques. I'll try to remember to bring my camera to the field next time. >...I don't have a flop on the wing so a certain technique has to be >exercised to get in, but once that is mastered getting in and out is >a very easy... The front cockpit is a little more snug than the >rear, but again with the right technique it is also very simple. >Again at my height I have no trouble at all getting in and out. My >most common passenger is my dad and he is about 6' 2" and around 225 >lbs. ... -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Dear Piet listers, Please be advised our overreaching federal government is at it again, slowl y but surely trying to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety". It is only going to get worse with this new administration we have. This proposal does not effect us directly, but we are next. Do not doubt it. Dan H. TSA Aviation Proposals Raise Civil Liberties Questions EAA and allies appeal for extension of comment period October 29, 2008 =94 Upon receiving and reviewing a Notice of Propos ed Rulemaking (NPRM) that the Transportation Security Administration issued to day, EAA immediately objected to the posted public-comment period of only 60 days. Th e NPRM calls for sweeping new security requirements on the operation of all aircraft exceeding 12,500 pounds =93 commercial and personal-use airc raft alike. Because of the onerous requirements and encroachment on personal freedoms suggested in the NPRM, EAA contends that the NPRM should have a comment per iod of no less than 120 days. Several allies, including Missouri Congressman Sa m Graves, an active EAA member, have joined EAA in filing objections to the comment period's 60-day duration. "These proposed rules would have dramatic ramifications for aircraft operators," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and regulato ry affairs. =9CFurthermore, they raise serious questions in the areas of interstate commerce, government authority, civil liberties, and Constitutional rights. Rulemaking proposals that present the potential for such dramatic consequen ces require more than a mere 60 days for public to study and comment on them. =9D The TSA's proposed rules would impose numerous requirements on the operator s of these aircraft, even those operating the aircraft for private and personal use, including the following * The owner/operator must assign a security director to oversee fligh t operations. * The security director must obtain TSA approval for the security program associated with every operation of the aircraft. * The security program must be audited and approved by the TSA. * The owner/operator must submit fingerprints of all flight-crew members to the TSA. * The owner/operator must submit a passenger manifest for each flight to the TSA. "Once again we're seeing an unwarranted and unrealistic hyper-focus on airplanes as potential instruments of terror, when real-life experience sho ws that trucks, automobiles, and computers can pose equal, or even greater, threats. This is about our nation's ongoing struggle to strike the right balance between upholding the personal freedoms and rights that make our country great and taking the nec essary steps to address and prevent legitimate threats to our security," Lawrence said. "We haven't seen undue restrictions on the use of trucks, for example, because there's an understanding that these are important to interstate com merce and the personal freedom to move persons and objects about the country. We need to foster the same understanding when it comes to the role of personal aircraft in our society," Lawrence said. The NPRM's 60-day comment period e xpires Dec. 29, 2008. If the TSA adopts the recommendation of EAA and its allies, the 120-day comment period would end March 31, 2009. **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all othe r Holiday needs. Search Now. ttp://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com V293LCB0aGlzIGluIG5vdCBhYm91dCBuYXRpb25hbCBzZWN1cml0eSBidXQgbW9yZSBhIG91dCBt b3JlIGdvdnQgbGltaXRpbmcgb3VyIGFiaWxpdHkuIEJldHdlZW4gdGhpcyBhbmQgdGhlIE9iYW1h IGNpdmlsIG5hdGlvbmFsIHNlY3VyaXR5IGFnZW5jeSBwcm9wb3NlZCBpbiBoaXMgc3BlZWNoLiBX ZSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBhbGwgb3VyIGZyZWVkb21zIHJldm9rZWQgb3IgY29udHJvbGxlZCB0byB0 aGUgcG9pbnQgb2YgYXNraW5nIHBlcm1pc3Npb24gdGhlbiBwcm92aWRpbmcganVzdGlmaWNhdGlv biB0byBleGVyY2lzZSB0aGVtLiANCg0KQnJvd24gc2hpcnRzIGFuZCBwYXBlcnMgd2hhdCdzIHRo aXMgY291bnRyeSBjb21pbmcgdG8/DQoNCkpvaG4NClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVs ZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVycnkNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEhlbHNw ZXJTZXdAYW9sLmNvbQ0KDQpEYXRlOiBTdW4sIDkgTm92IDIwMDggMDY6MTg6MjMgDQpUbzogPHBp 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bWxjbnR1c3NlYXIwMDAwMDAwMSkNCg0K ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:56:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, amsafetyc(at)aol.com writes: what's this country coming to? Good buddy, hate to tell you but it's not coming, IT'S HERE **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ From: "Ken Chambers" <ken.riffic(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Politics has no place here. Lets cut the screwball predictions and stick with the regulations. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:57 AM, wrote: > Wow, this in not about national security but more a out more govt limitin g > our ability. Between this and the Obama civil national security agency > proposed in his speech. We should have all our freedoms revoked or > controlled to the point of asking permission then providing justification to > exercise them. > > Brown shirts and papers what's this country coming to? > > John > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBe > > ------------------------------ > *From*: HelsperSew(at)aol.com > *To*: > *Subject*: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" > > > Dear Piet listers, > > > Please be advised our overreaching federal government is at it again, > slowly but surely trying to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety". I t > is only going to get worse with this new administration we have. This > proposal does not effect us directly, but we are next. Do not doubt it. Dan > H. > > > TSA Aviation Proposals Raise Civil Liberties Questions > > *EAA and allies appeal for extension of comment period* > > *October 29, 2008* =97 Upon receiving and reviewing a Notice of Proposed > Rulemaking (NPRM) that the Transportation Security Administration issued > today, EAA immediately objected to the posted public-comment period of > only 60 days. The NPRM calls for sweeping new security requirements on th e > operation of *all* aircraft exceeding 12,500 pounds ' commercial and > personal-use aircraft alike. > > Because of the onerous requirements and encroachment on personal freedoms > suggested in the NPRM, EAA contends that the NPRM should have a comment > period of no less than 120 days. Several allies, including Missouri > Congressman Sam Graves, an active EAA member, have joined EAA in filing > objections to the comment period's 60-day duration. > > "These proposed rules would have dramatic ramifications for aircraft > operators," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and > regulatory affairs. "Furthermore, they raise serious questions in the are as > of interstate commerce, government authority, civil liberties, and > Constitutional rights. Rulemaking proposals that present the potential fo r > such dramatic consequences require more than a mere 60 days for public to > study and comment on them." > The TSA's proposed rules would impose numerous requirements on the > operators of these aircraft, even those operating the aircraft for privat e > and personal use, including the following > > > - The owner/operator must assign a security director to oversee flight > operations. > - The security director must obtain TSA approval for the security > program associated with every operation of the aircraft. > - The security program must be audited and approved by the TSA. > - The owner/operator must submit fingerprints of all flight-crew > members to the TSA. > - The owner/operator must submit a passenger manifest for *each* fligh t > to the TSA. > > "Once again we're seeing an unwarranted and unrealistic hyper-focus on > airplanes as potential instruments of terror, when real-life experience > shows that trucks, automobiles, and > > > computers can pose equal, or even greater, threats. This is about our > nation's ongoing struggle to strike the right balance between upholding t he > personal freedoms and rights that make our country great and taking the > necessary steps to address and prevent legitimate threats to our security ," > Lawrence said. > > "We haven't seen undue restrictions on the use of trucks, for example, > because there's an understanding that these are important to interstate > commerce and the personal freedom to move persons and objects about the > country. We need to foster the same understanding when it comes to the ro le > of personal aircraft in our society," Lawrence said. > The NPRM's 60-day comment period expires Dec. 29, 2008. If the TSA adopts > the recommendation of EAA and its allies, the 120-day comment period woul d > end March 31, 2009. > > > ------------------------------ > AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday > needs. Search Now. > ===================== * > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar.- I made brackets similar to yours and Mike C's.- Another topic:- Mike ment ined to me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use.- I'm instal ling a nose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascolator.- Do you have comments on these components?- I am especiall y interested in learning about the controls for the valve.- Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel?- It looks like a lot of builders ar e using the T handle control cable from Aircraft Spruce.- Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? Have you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is c onparable to-the mini ACS ball valve?-=0A=0ASo any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated.- ball valves, controll types to actuate th e valve and gascolators.=0A=0AThanks again.=0A=0Ajohn egan=0Asnow flurries here in Wisconsion today=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF rom: "Phillips, Jack" =0ATo: pietenpol-li st(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A=0AJohn,=0A- =0AHere is what I did at the spar.- I made a fitting from =BE=94 x =BE=94 6061-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot.- At the lift strut I did exactly like Don Emch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift strut and welded it too.- Here is a picture:=0A-=0A-=0AJack Phillips =0ANX899JP=0ARaleigh, NC=0A-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AF rom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list- server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan=0ASent: Monday, November 03, 2 008 3:44 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-Lis t: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A-=0AThanks Don, however I am -curious about the attachment at the spar, not at-the strut.- What di d you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment.=0A- =0ACan you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well?- I lik e it.=0A-=0Ajohn=0Agreenville , wi=0A-=0A=0A___________________________ _____=0A=0AFrom:Don Emch =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.c om=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: R e: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message poste d by: "Don Emch" =0A=0AHi John,=0A=0AThere are several way s to do it.- This was my method.- I welded a tube in to the strut and p ut an eye bolt in.- Check out the fly in the picture too!- Huh.=0A=0Aht tp://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG=0A=0ADo n Emch=0ANX899DE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic =0A =0A =0A_______________ __________________________________=0A=0AThis message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary=0Aor otherwise priva te information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender =0Aimmediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you i s prohibited.=0A=0ADansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japane se - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Don and Dan and all on the recent answers to my jury strut attachmen t questions.- This all helps me very much.- Having fun finally working on these little details.- Next steps, learning my way through the fuel sy stem.=0A=0AJohn e.=0Agreenville, wi.=0A=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0AFrom: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matr onics.com=0ASent: Monday, November 3, 2008 8:34:21 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol- List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar?=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List messag e posted by: "Don Emch" =0A=0AJohn,=0A=0ASorry about that. - I guess I can't tell the difference between spar and strut.- I did my spar attachment just like Mike Cuy's.- Bent some flat stock into an angl e.- I think it might have been .063".- Hey Jack, yeah drilling those ra tes right up there with drilling the spars.- Makes for a few tense moment s.=0A=0ADon Emch=0ANX899DE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212190#212190=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =========================0A ======0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Ken, I do not consider this politics. There is no partisanship here. This is a clear example of an over-reaching government trying to overstep their bounds by curtailing our individual liberties and freedoms. The only reason our country is the leader of the world today is freedom. Not as any result of what the government did "for us". All you need to do is look at Europe and see how little flying is done there. The government has put so many restrictions and taxes in place it has stifled private flying almost to extinction in some cases. Last summer right before Brodhead we had some Swiss fellows visit here at Poplar Grove. The man and his son were building a Hatz biplane. He told me that when they finish, they will only be able to fly it 20 hours per year because of the huge expenses due to the taxes, take-off and landing fees, and government restrictions. He was extremely envious of our freedoms here. He said that the flying-friendly atmosphere we enjoy here is unheard of in Switzerland. We must fight these clowns in Washington that are running the government at every opportunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Hi John, I ended up using a valve I bought on ebay, but was planning to use the ball valve ACS sells for $23 until I found the very same valve (same manufacturer, same part number) at Home Depot for about $6. As far as I know it should work just fine. I positioned mine so the shutoff is in the rear cockpit, just under the instrument panel. Kept me from having to run another flexible cable to the firewall. Jack NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar. I made brackets similar to yours and Mike C's. Another topic: Mike mentined to me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use. I'm installing a nose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascolator. Do you have comments on these components? I am especially interested in learning about the controls for the valve. Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel? It looks like a lot of builders are using the T handle control cable from Aircraft Spruce. Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? Have you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is conparable to the mini ACS ball valve? So any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated. ball valves, controll types to actuate the valve and gascolators. Thanks again. john egan snow flurries here in Wisconsion today _____ From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? John, Here is what I did at the spar. I made a fitting from =BE=94 x =BE=94 6061-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot. At the lift strut I did exactly like Don Emch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift strut and welded it too. Here is a picture: Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Don, however I am curious about the attachment at the spar, not at the strut. What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment. Can you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well? I like it. john greenville , wi _____ From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Hi John, There are several ways to do it. This was my method. I welded a tube in to the strut and put an eye bolt in. Check out the fly in the picture too! Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediate. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" I guess I'm missing something here, but these rules are for airplanes that weigh 6 1/4 tons. And I further assume that these are commercial commuter flights. I for one ,if I was getting on a commercial flight with my wife and two small daughters, would want a flight that was completely protected from all the out side crap that could happen to them. Guess I'm missing something, but how does this compare to a 600# Piet? PS I work under the wings of the "big Iron" of Newark Airport (NWK) all the time. And it's amazing how efficiently they all run. Obama's my man walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Wow, this in not about national security but more a out more govt limiting our ability. Between this and the Obama civil national security agency proposed in his speech. We should have all our freedoms revoked or controlled to the point of asking permission then providing justification to exercise them. Brown shirts and papers what's this country coming to? John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 06:18:23 EST To: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Dear Piet listers, Please be advised our overreaching federal government is at it again, slowly but surely trying to erode our freedoms in the name of "safety". It is only going to get worse with this new administration we have. This proposal does not effect us directly, but we are next. Do not doubt it. Dan H. TSA Aviation Proposals Raise Civil Liberties Questions EAA and allies appeal for extension of comment period October 29, 2008 =94 Upon receiving and reviewing a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) that the Transportation Security Administration issued today, EAA immediately objected to the posted public-comment period of only 60 days. The NPRM calls for sweeping new security requirements on the operation of all aircraft exceeding 12,500 pounds =93 commercial and personal-use aircraft alike. Because of the onerous requirements and encroachment on personal freedoms suggested in the NPRM, EAA contends that the NPRM should have a comment period of no less than 120 days. Several allies, including Missouri Congressman Sam Graves, an active EAA member, have joined EAA in filing objections to the comment period's 60-day duration. "These proposed rules would have dramatic ramifications for aircraft operators," said Earl Lawrence, EAA vice president of industry and regulatory affairs. =9CFurthermore, they raise serious questions in the areas of interstate commerce, government authority, civil liberties, and Constitutional rights. Rulemaking proposals that present the potential for such dramatic consequences require more than a mere 60 days for public to study and comment on them.=9D The TSA's proposed rules would impose numerous requirements on the operators of these aircraft, even those operating the aircraft for private and personal use, including the following a.. The owner/operator must assign a security director to oversee flight operations. b.. The security director must obtain TSA approval for the security program associated with every operation of the aircraft. c.. The security program must be audited and approved by the TSA. d.. The owner/operator must submit fingerprints of all flight-crew members to the TSA. e.. The owner/operator must submit a passenger manifest for each flight to the TSA. "Once again we're seeing an unwarranted and unrealistic hyper-focus on airplanes as potential instruments of terror, when real-life experience shows that trucks, automobiles, and computers can pose equal, or even greater, threats. This is about our nation's ongoing struggle to strike the right balance between upholding the personal freedoms and rights that make our country great and taking the necessary steps to address and prevent legitimate threats to our security," Lawrence said. "We haven't seen undue restrictions on the use of trucks, for example, because there's an understanding that these are important to interstate commerce and the personal freedom to move persons and objects about the country. We need to foster the same understanding when it comes to the role of personal aircraft in our society," Lawrence said. The NPRM's 60-day comment period expires Dec. 29, 2008. If the TSA adopts the recommendation of EAA and its allies, the 120-day comment period would end March 31, 2009. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. ====================== =EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Walt, Per the beginning of the proposal: http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/nprm_lasp.pdf ...the TSA wants to apply these changes to all aircraft, corporate or private, that have a maximum certificated takeoff weight above 12,500 lbs. The "private" portion of that proposal would hit the warbird/large vintage aircraft movement in particular. You can bet that non-profits would fall under it as well, whether they consider them corporate or private. Your scheduled or charted airline service currently has such rules in place; they want to extend them to all aircraft over 12,500, not just airliners. It matters to you if you want to see historically significant large aircraft continue to take to the skies at fly-ins and airshows across the country. The cost and BS factor in dealing with this proposal would cause many operators (be they non-profits or individuals) to throw in the towel, especially with the economy in the crapper. I thank Dan for raising the large aircraft issue, but I disagree with his assessment of the future. This proposal is the product of the current administration's continued war against the Constitution, our liberties, and our freedom. I don't know if the president-elect has the answers, but I don't see him continuing down the path the current administration has decided to blaze. I know I shouldn't have said that; oh well, I wanted to respond. I'll leave it at that. If you have an issue with what I said politically please contact me personally and we can discuss; I'll not air it here any further. I hope everyone had a good weekend. We had a blast at the Golf Company USMC Birthday Ball in Madison, WI (233 years and going strong!). Everyone came home safe, we drank far too much beer into the wee hours of the morning, and fun was had by all. Have a good night, Ryan On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 5:24 PM, walt wrote: > I guess I'm missing something here, but these rules are for airplanes > that weigh 6 1/4 tons. > And I further assume that these are commercial commuter flights. > I for one ,if I was getting on a commercial flight with my wife and two > small daughters, would want a flight that was completely protected from all > the out side crap that could happen to them. > Guess I'm missing something, but how does this compare to a 600# Piet? > PS I work under the wings of the "big Iron" of Newark Airport (NWK) all the > time. And it's amazing how efficiently they all run. > Obama's my man > walt evans > NX140DL > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Jack, - Any possibility of attaching a few photos of the set-up and valve? - KM Heide - --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Jack Phillips wrote: From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Hi John, - I ended up using a valve I bought on ebay, but was planning to use the ball valve ACS sells for $23 until I found the very same valve (same manufactur er, same part number) at Home Depot for about $6.- As far as I know it sh ould work just fine. - I positioned mine so the shutoff is in the rear cockpit, just under the ins trument panel.- Kept me from having to run another flexible cable to the firewall. - Jack NX899JP - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks - Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar.- I made brackets similar to yours and Mike C's.- Another topic:- Mike ment ined to me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use.- I'm instal ling a nose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascolator.- Do you have comments on these components?- I am especiall y interested in learning about the controls for the valve.- Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel?- It looks like a lot of builders ar e using the T handle control cable from Aircraft Spruce.- Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? Have you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is c onparable to-the mini ACS ball valve?- - So any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated.- ball valves, c ontroll types to actuate the valve and gascolators. - Thanks again. - john egan snow flurries here in Wisconsion today - From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? John, - Here is what I did at the spar.- I made a fitting from =BE=94 x =BE=94 60 61-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot.- At the lift strut I did exactly li ke Don Emch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift st rut and welded it too.- Here is a picture: - - Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? - Thanks Don, however I am-curious about the attachment at the spar, not at -the strut.- What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar attachment. - Can you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well?- I like i t. - john greenville , wi - From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Hi John, There are several ways to do it.- This was my method.- I welded a tube in to the strut and put an eye bolt in.- Check out the fly in the picture too!- Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic - --_________________________________________________ -This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privi leged, proprietaryor otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the senderimmediate. -Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ From: "Ken Chambers" <ken.riffic(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" Dan When politicians are mentioned by name it quickly becomes political. Obama was clearly mentioned. Might be justifiable if as president Obama had championed some great freedom grab. But he hasn't even taken office! Again, let's stick with specific regulations that effect Pietenpol pilots and avoid vague predictions of impending doom. There are plenty of places for rants of that nature on the Internet. This isn't one of them. Ken On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 4:27 PM, wrote: > Ken, > > I do not consider this politics. There is no partisanship here. This is a > clear example of an over-reaching government trying to overstep their bounds > by curtailing our individual liberties and freedoms. The only reason our > country is the leader of the world today is freedom. Not as any result of > what the government did "for us". All you need to do is look at Europe and > see how little flying is done there. The government has put so many > restrictions and taxes in place it has stifled private flying almost to > extinction in some cases. Last summer right before Brodhead we had some > Swiss fellows visit here at Poplar Grove. The man and his son were building > a Hatz biplane. He told me that when they finish, they will only be able to > fly it 20 hours per year because of the huge expenses due to the taxes, > take-off and landing fees, and government restrictions. He was *extremely > envious* of our freedoms here. He said that the flying-friendly atmosphere > we enjoy here is *unheard of* in Switzerland. We must fight these clowns > in Washington that are running the government at every > opportunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *Wake up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > * > > > ------------------------------ > AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all > other2x1200798498/aol?redir > http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001">Search Now. > > * > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" History repeats. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Beware- the feds are coming to "help" In a message dated 11/9/2008 8:56:37 A.M. Central Standard Time, amsafetyc(at)aol.com writes: what's this country coming to? Good buddy, hate to tell you but it's not coming, IT'S HERE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 11/9/2008 2:14 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 10, 2008
Subject: TSA proposal
Dear Pieters, I would like to apologize to everybody on this list for my inclusion of the line in my original post referring to the new administration. It was wrong of me to do that here. Obviously I cannot predict the future any more than anyone else. This current proposal by the current administration does have me worried. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 10, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: P.F. Beck's Piet
Ron Lendon posted a slew of pics that he shot at Corvair College #12: http://picasaweb.google.com/ron.lendon/CorvairCollege12# P.F. Beck brought his Piet in on one of the days, and there are approx 8 to 10 pics of his Piet in the bunch. A bit more of an up-close look of his Piet than I have seen before... Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Virtual Engine, Magneto etc
Date: Nov 10, 2008
Sent to me. Now sent to you. Maybe someday they'll give us the rest of the engine. :-) Clif Very Cool and you don't even get dirty hands! http://www.undaerospace.com/cbt_files/virtualengine/Magneto/Virtual%20Eng ine.swf The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
From: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>
Date: Nov 11, 2008
The Port of Seattle got 4 or 5 new Cargo Cranes built and installed several years ago (1998?) and they are the largest Cargo Cranes on the west coast I believe. I remember it was a big deal. Their origin? China. I think they have some Chinese lifting gear on them? :) No problems that I am aware of so far, I know they keep them fairly busy. You would think that they would do their home work if they were spending that kind of money, and they had that much at stake. Shut a major Port down for a day and see what happens. Talk about a choke hold. The bottom line is if you go with the lowest bidder that's what you get. If you expect better quality you will have to pay for it. -------- Brady McCormick Poulsbo, WA www.magnificentmachine.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213533#213533 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks
Date: Nov 11, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
My fuel system is fairly complicated, due to the fact that I have all the f uel in the centersection (I like a large gravity head to provide fuel press ure), and I have a fuel pickup in each corner of the tank (my old Cessna 14 0 taught me that with one pickup in the tank, low fuel levels and strange a ngles of attack could produce periods of sphincter-clinch). So I have four lines all feeding down to the rear cockpit, where they merge into one line that goes into the fuel shutoff valve. From there the fuel flows forward to the gascolator mounted on the firewall, at the low point of the system. Here is my fuel shutoff valve, located on the back of the front seat bulkh ead below the rear instrument panel: Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:27 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Jack, Any possibility of attaching a few photos of the set-up and valve? KM Heide --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Jack Phillips wrote: From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 5:12 PM Hi John, I ended up using a valve I bought on ebay, but was planning to use the ball valve ACS sells for $23 until I found the very same valve (same manufactur er, same part number) at Home Depot for about $6. As far as I know it shou ld work just fine. I positioned mine so the shutoff is in the rear cockpit, just under the ins trument panel. Kept me from having to run another flexible cable to the fi rewall. Jack NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Thanks Jack for the info regarding jury strut attachment at the spar. I ma de brackets similar to yours and Mike C's. Another topic: Mike mentined t o me that you tested ball valves for fuel shut off use. I'm installing a n ose tank, so I am selecting my shut off valve, actuating cable, and gascola tor. Do you have comments on these components? I am especially interested in learning about the controls for the valve. Do I have to have a locking type control for fuel? It looks like a lot of builders are using the T ha ndle control cable from Aircraft Spruce. Do you know if the control has to be lockable or positive position or can it simply be an actuating lever? H ave you found that a hardware store bress ball valve is conparable to the m ini ACS ball valve? So any thoughts you have or can remember are appreciated. ball valves, con troll types to actuate the valve and gascolators. Thanks again. john egan snow flurries here in Wisconsion today _____ From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 3:22:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? John, Here is what I did at the spar. I made a fitting from =BE" x =BE" 6061-T6 aluminum angle from Home Depot. At the lift strut I did exactly like Don E mch, except I cut the end of the eyebolt off flush with the lift strut and welded it too. Here is a picture: Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Egan Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? Thanks Don, however I am curious about the attachment at the spar, not at t he strut. What did you do at the spar? Any pictures of flies on the spar a ttachment. Can you remind me what shade of green you painted that as well? I like it. john greenville , wi _____ From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 2:11:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury Strut Attachment at the Spar? mchAir(at)aol.com> > Hi John, There are several ways to do it. This was my method. I welded a tube in t o the strut and put an eye bolt in. Check out the fly in the picture too! Huh. http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please no tify the sender immediate. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenp ol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com /contribution> atronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Icom A22 / GPS 12 garmin
Date: Nov 11, 2008
I am SO, SO, SO sorry!!! By the time I got home last week I was feeling rotten. I left the next morning and was gone on a four day trip, all the while suffering a cold, but trying to hang in there. I completely forgot to call you back, and I apologize. If you still have the radio, I will take it. If you already sold it, I completely understand. Please forgive me! This is not like me. Gene Rambo 202-674-1445 ----- Original Message ----- From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP<mailto:kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> To: Pietenpol Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 11:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icom A22 / GPS 12 garmin Members: I have a Garmin handheld GPS 12 for sale which works great!! 500 way-points, battery operated, waterproof...excellent shape $100.00. I also have a Icom Navicom IC-A22 radio in excellent shape, both battery packs, charger, cover, instruction booklet, first $150.00. KM HEIDE 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Patrick Panzera" <panzera@experimental-aviation.com>
Subject: Veterans Day
Date: Nov 11, 2008
> WASHINGTON, D.C. - VETERANS CAN RENDER HAND SALUTE > > Its official, Veterans of the Armed Forces, and not in uniform, may render > the military salute during hoisting, lowering and/or passing of the United > States Flag. Section 9 of Title 4 United States Code, was amended to > reflect such action when the US President signed HR4986 National Defense > Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 into law on 28 January 2008. > > U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) praised the passage by unanimous consent > of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law to allow veterans and servicemen > not in uniform to salute the flag > > "I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at > baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an > appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the > United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to > others citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the > military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an > inspiration to others." > > ALL Veterans should 'Hand Salute' the flag, instead of holding hand over > heart, to show to all that they are a Veteran and not a civilian. > > You do not have to remove your hat if covered, Salute, in an honored > respect for your military service. Indoors or outdoors, this rule applies. > In uniform, or in civilian clothes, this rule applies. > > Civilians should still remove their covers and hold it over their breast. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 11, 2008
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: FORGED 4340 CORVAIR CRANKSHAFTS
amsafetyc(at)aol.com wrote: > Does that have any political, social or economic substance that needs to be avoided? That's just the problem. If it's substance, most of us don't mind it. If it's needlessly inflammatory BS... Owen, who should know better than to respond to trolls ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists
Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551-0347 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: photoshare ?
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Hello Matt, About 3 weeks ago I sent you photos to your photoshare web e-mail address to be added to the Pietenpol list Photoshare web site and have asked you via private e-mail since if you rec'd them and if you could post them but with no reply. I've never had any issues with posting photos to Photoshare in the past so perhaps you could assist some way in getting these posted ? If you would like me to re-send them I will gladly do that. Thank you, Mike Cuy Pietenpol List ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
Subject: Pietenpol : [ Michael D. Cuy ] : New Email List PhotoShare
Available!
From: Email List PhotoShares <pictures(at)matronics.com>
A new Email List PhotoShare is available: Poster: Michael D. Cuy Lists: Pietenpol-List Subject: Shad Bell's visit to Lorain County Airport, Ohio http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov.11.12.2008 ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main PhotoShare Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a PhotoShare If you wish to submit a PhotoShare of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures(at)matronics.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
All of my spar material came today. I received 4 lengths for the wings and a 6' piece for the two center section spars. - They were all between 4.97" to 5.025" wide and .755" to .770" thick. I meas ured from end to end along the length at various spots on all pieces and ca me up with the numbers above as an average. - I think they are fairly straight except that one has a bow in it from one e nd about 2-3 feet long. I set the spar up on the .750" edge and I can see t he space under it where the bow is. (The 5" measurement is vertical.) At th e highest spot, is sits about .5" or so off the floor. - I have attached pictures of my only real concern. This "knot", if you will, is located at the 9'-5" length of the spar. My questions are these: - Can I use this spar as a rear spar on the wing? Should I have this not closer to the center section, or closer to the wing tip? Can I fill this knot with epoxy and use it? Should I cut out the knot, fill and epoxy? Should I use this board for other things and buy a new spar? - Also, on the very end, about 2"-is starting to crack off the board. I won der if I can epoxy this in place and move on. - Over all I am pleased, I only have this one "spot" that concerns me. Any he lp would be appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Elevator Trim
I worked all weekend on a trim system and, now that it is done, I am wondering if I wasted my time. I used screen door springs from the local Ace Hardware connected to a trim wheel mounted underneath the pilot's seat by cables. It seems to work OK but I am concerned by two things: 1) the weight of the springs/cables; and 2) stiffness of the springs. This in turn brings up two questions for the group: 1) Is a trim system really necessary; and 2) How stiff do the springs need to be? Actually there's a third question as well: 3) Do you need springs on both the up and down sides of the bellcrank? HELP! Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Nov 12, 2008
Looks more like pitch pocket. I have attached a portion of ANC-19 that might help. You can download more information from ANC-19 about selecting wood at http://www.westcoastpiet.com/construction.htm look for a link to ANC-19 pg 118-126 (9.5mb). About mid page. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213820#213820 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/anc_19_pg_118_to_126_page_6_403.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Date: Nov 12, 2008
Mike, When in doubt, refer to AC 43.13-1B (available here, if you don't have it) http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular .nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument <http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircula r.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlight=43.13> &Highlight=43.13 >From the photos, it looks like you might have a "pitch pocket", rather than a knot. And according to AC 43.13-1B (Chapter 1, paragraph 1-2): Notes for Table 1-1 1. Defects Permitted. e. Pitch pockets. Acceptable in center portion of a beam providing they are at least 14 inches apart when they lie in the same growth ring and do not exceed 1-1/2 inches length by 1/8 inch width by 1/8 inch depth, and providing they are not along the projecting portions of I-beams, along the edges of rectangular or beveled unrouted beams, or along the edges of the flanges of box beams. >From the photo, it looks like the defect is roughly 2" long, and 3/16" wide, and probably deeper than 1/8" (hard to tell). So it appears to be outside of acceptable limits. Since this is going to be the main structural component of your wings, I don't think I would take a chance on it. What's the cost of a new spar - $100 or so? I would buy a new piece. You will be able to use the board for other parts. The wood looks nice. What does the end grain look like? Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: "ALAN LYSCARS" <alyscars(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Michael, Can you post pics of the end grain on your spar material? Al Lyscars Manchester, NH ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:57 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber All of my spar material came today. I received 4 lengths for the wings and a 6' piece for the two center section spars. They were all between 4.97" to 5.025" wide and .755" to .770" thick. I measured from end to end along the length at various spots on all pieces and came up with the numbers above as an average. I think they are fairly straight except that one has a bow in it from one end about 2-3 feet long. I set the spar up on the .750" edge and I can see the space under it where the bow is. (The 5" measurement is vertical.) At the highest spot, is sits about .5" or so off the floor. I have attached pictures of my only real concern. This "knot", if you will, is located at the 9'-5" length of the spar. My questions are these: Can I use this spar as a rear spar on the wing? Should I have this not closer to the center section, or closer to the wing tip? Can I fill this knot with epoxy and use it? Should I cut out the knot, fill and epoxy? Should I use this board for other things and buy a new spar? Also, on the very end, about 2" is starting to crack off the board. I wonder if I can epoxy this in place and move on. Over all I am pleased, I only have this one "spot" that concerns me. Any help would be appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Elevator Trim
Date: Nov 12, 2008
Tom, Just curious, but why are you asking whether a trim system is necessary AFTER you have designed and built one? Since there is none in the plans, you must have felt it to be necessary. In any case, from what I have read, a trim system really only gets used if you have your fuel tank in the fuselage, rather than the wing. As the weight of the fuel (located ahead of the CG) is depleted, the CG shifts, and having a flight-adjustable elevator trim helps to ease the stick forces required to compensate for the shift in weight. When the fuel is in the wing, the weight is centered pretty much on the CG, so, once the plane is trimmed properly, fuel burn does not have a major effect. As with all "added features" on the Pietenpol, a trim system comes with a "price" - added weight. I haven't yet heard a Pietenpol builder regret making his plane too light. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim
Bill, I'm with you, cause I'm one of the light ones. No more white knuckles for me!! Empty wt 595# baby. I'm so glad that I had a mentor that drilled that into my head. I wound up using 2 aluminum tabs on the horz stab to get the pressure off the stick. Works OK, but still with variations due to the nose tank. I don't really fly long distances, or it would be more of a neusance. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Trim Tom, Just curious, but why are you asking whether a trim system is necessary AFTER you have designed and built one? Since there is none in the plans, you must have felt it to be necessary. In any case, from what I have read, a trim system really only gets used if you have your fuel tank in the fuselage, rather than the wing. As the weight of the fuel (located ahead of the CG) is depleted, the CG shifts, and having a flight-adjustable elevator trim helps to ease the stick forces required to compensate for the shift in weight. When the fuel is in the wing, the weight is centered pretty much on the CG, so, once the plane is trimmed properly, fuel burn does not have a major effect. As with all "added features" on the Pietenpol, a trim system comes with a "price" - added weight. I haven't yet heard a Pietenpol builder regret making his plane too light. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Robert Gow" <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca>
Subject: Dual mags on Model A
Date: Nov 12, 2008
Where did you get the head? I'm at the point where I'm thinking to get an engine built with some "improvements". Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of HelsperSew(at)aol.com Sent: November 3, 2008 6:03 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dual mags on Model A Gene (Rambo), Yes I have an aftermarket head with 8 plug holes. I have one mag driven off the end of the crank, and the other off the camshaft. Photo attached. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 12, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim
The simplest, lightest trim system would seem to be the Adel clamp around the stick, with a bungee/spring attached at or near the base of the seat: PF Beck's Piet, for example: http://picasaweb.google.com/ron.lendon/CorvairCollege12#5267207094409184402 I'm pretty sure Bill Rewey did something similar on his. On a side note, if you look to the left of his seat cushion you can see that it appears he has used a split bolt connector to secure the tailwheel steering cable to the rudder cable (top right corner has a "magnify" button). Both the trim and the cable connection done simple and light. Ryan On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Bill Church wrote: > Tom, > > Just curious, but why are you asking whether a trim system is necessary > AFTER you have designed and built one? Since there is none in the plans, you > must have felt it to be necessary. > > In any case, from what I have read, a trim system really only gets used if > you have your fuel tank in the fuselage, rather than the wing. As the weight > of the fuel (located ahead of the CG) is depleted, the CG shifts, and having > a flight-adjustable elevator trim helps to ease the stick forces required to > compensate for the shift in weight. When the fuel is in the wing, the weight > is centered pretty much on the CG, so, once the plane is trimmed properly, > fuel burn does not have a major effect. > > As with all "added features" on the Pietenpol, a trim system comes with a > "price" - added weight. > I haven't yet heard a Pietenpol builder regret making his plane too light. > > Bill C. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jonathan Ragle <jon95gt(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Trim
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Hmm. I've yet to fly my Gregga (this weekend=2C crossed fingers) but it ha s no trim and the fuel tank is in front of the passenger's cockpit. From s peaking to those that have flown it (my dad and 2 previous owners) it reall y doesn't present any sort of problem. JonJon From: eng(at)canadianrogers.comTo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Pi etenpol-List: Elevator TrimDate: Wed=2C 12 Nov 2008 17:39:09 -0500 Tom=2C Just curious=2C but why are you asking whether a trim system is necessary A FTER you have designed and built one? Since there is none in the plans=2C y ou must have felt it to be necessary. In any case=2C from what I have read=2C a trim system really only gets used if you have your fuel tank in the fuselage=2C rather than the wing. As the weight of the fuel (located ahead of the CG) is depleted=2C the CG shifts =2C and having a flight-adjustable elevator trim helps to ease the stick fo rces required to compensate for the shift in weight. When the fuel is in th e wing=2C the weight is centered pretty much on the CG=2C so=2C once the pl ane is trimmed properly=2C fuel burn does not have a major effect. As with all "added features" on the Pietenpol=2C a trim system comes with a "price" - added weight. I haven't yet heard a Pietenpol builder regret making his plane too light. Bill C. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast er_112008 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Date: Nov 13, 2008
I don't like it either, even though fir is stronger than spruce. Is this the one with the bow? In any case a half inch of bow is outside the possibility of straightening it by cutting it straight. Since you've essentialy got 1/4" of extra depth to the material the spar end will still be 1/4" bowed on the opposite edge albeit for only one and a half feet. Then again from the last rib it's 4" cut down to the wing tip bow so the bowed in part will only be 14" with a depth of 1/8" at the last rib. You'd have to watch the newly created runout too. Also the grain runout appears to be on the edge of acceptability in the photo. And we still don't know what the end grain angle is. Clif "Trifles make perfection, and perfection is no trifle." (Michelangelo) ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber Mike, When in doubt, refer to AC 43.13-1B (available here, if you don't have it) http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircu lar.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlight=43.13 From the photos, it looks like you might have a "pitch pocket", rather than a knot. And according to AC 43.13-1B (Chapter 1, paragraph 1-2): Notes for Table 1-1 1. Defects Permitted. e. Pitch pockets. Acceptable in center portion of a beam providing they are at least 14 inches apart when they lie in the same growth ring and do not exceed 1-1/2 inches length by 1/8 inch width by 1/8 inch depth, and providing they are not along the projecting portions of I-beams, along the edges of rectangular or beveled unrouted beams, or along the edges of the flanges of box beams. From the photo, it looks like the defect is roughly 2" long, and 3/16" wide, and probably deeper than 1/8" (hard to tell). So it appears to be outside of acceptable limits. Since this is going to be the main structural component of your wings, I don't think I would take a chance on it. What's the cost of a new spar - $100 or so? I would buy a new piece. You will be able to use the board for other parts. The wood looks nice. What does the end grain look like? Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 11/11/2008 7:32 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
I'll have to look at the bow more. While I had it on the floor, I looked at it while standing. I'll get it on a better surface and get down there with it and take a better look. - The one end of one board that I did look at had an almost vertical grain on the end, so it looked. A slight angle, but not very much. - I can put up more pictures either later today or tomorrow. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Trim
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Walt and others have it exactly right... if you have your fuel in the wing, elevator trim really isn't necessary. 41CC has the fuel in the nose and I do notice a clear difference in stick position and pressure in cruise with full fuel and part fuel. I installed a trim system in the airplane but I've found that I never adjust it after I initially set it... basically it uses a bungee on the top arm of the elevator bellcrank behind the pilot's seat to make the elevator "light" (applies nose-up trim), and that has decreased the difference in stick feel when the fuel tank is full but it's still noticeable. Total weight of the trim system is probably half a pound. As others have noted, the only time you really notice it is on long flights (over an hour or so). Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim
I may be using a dual tank set up, one in the wings and one in front, now is a good time for me to be thinking about it so if anyone has pics to share on the best design and installation I would appreciate seeing them. Along with any type of description all suggestions are appreciated along with any suggested improvements in the design to make it most effective, reliable and easy to use. I may abandon the entire idea but would really like to see what goes into a trim system for a Piet before I make that decision. Thanks to all that participate John In a message dated 11/13/2008 8:53:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Oscar Zuniga Walt and others have it exactly right... if you have your fuel in the wing, elevator trim really isn't necessary. 41CC has the fuel in the nose and I do notice a clear difference in stick position and pressure in cruise with full fuel and part fuel. I installed a trim system in the airplane but I've found that I never adjust it after I initially set it... basically it uses a bungee on the top arm of the elevator bellcrank behind the pilot's seat to make the elevator "light" (applies nose-up trim), and that has decreased the difference in stick feel when the fuel tank is full but it's still noticeable. Total weight of the trim system is probably half a pound. As others have noted, the only time you really notice it is on long flights (over an hour or so). Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
I find it strange that there are methods for repairing broken or cracked spars, ribs, skins, etc., but I can't find any place a repair for this so called pitch pocket. Seems you can mend a broken spar, but not fix a hole. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Michael: I have heard that there are those who have made their own spar stock up by laminating strips but I don't know about the criteria, so I suppose if you stock was tall enough and the grain was 100% straight throughout otherwise, you could run it through the table saw and rip out the offending 1/4 inch through the whole length and re-glue. But then you may as well order an other good length and rip that one with the pitch pocket up for cap strip. Don't know what the etiquette is on gussets but that may be an option as well if it is located in the right place and after you get your ribs on. Michael in Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:35 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber I find it strange that there are methods for repairing broken or cracked spars, ribs, skins, etc., but I can't find any place a repair for this so called pitch pocket. Seems you can mend a broken spar, but not fix a hole. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Mike, If you really want to "repair" the pitch pocket you can always cut it out and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B Chapter 1 for details. But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about spending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going to be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air. That's most likely to be less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane. And you will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so the net cost to you is much less. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
I agree with you Bill. I plan on buying a new spar and use this defective o ne for other stock. I just found it odd that there was no repairs noted for such a thing, yet if the spar is broke, you can fix it. Doesn't make sense to me. --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 10:08 AM Mike, - If you really want to "repair"-the pitch pocket you can always cut it out and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B Cha pter 1 for details. - But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about sp ending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going to be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air.-That's most likely to be-less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane.-A nd you will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so the net cost to you is much less. - Bill C.- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim
Oscar, Excellent description of the "problem" and of your solution. Given that you set it and forget it, would a trim tab not do the same for you? I find that even with tabs, I would still like an in-flight trim solution, but I'd like to know your thoughts. Jeff > > >Walt and others have it exactly right... if you have your fuel in the wing, >elevator trim really isn't necessary. 41CC has the fuel in the nose and I >do notice a clear difference in stick position and pressure in cruise with >full fuel and part fuel. I installed a trim system in the airplane but I've >found that I never adjust it after I initially set it... basically it uses a >bungee on the top arm of >the elevator bellcrank behind the pilot's seat to make the elevator "light" >(applies nose-up trim), and that has decreased the difference in stick feel >when the fuel tank is full but it's still noticeable. Total weight of the >trim system is probably half a pound. As others have noted, the only time >you really notice it is on long flights (over an hour or so). > >Oscar Zuniga >Air Camper NX41CC >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
One of the two repairs listed for broken solid spars is to cut out the failure and splice in a good piece of wood. This is the same repair that you would have to execute to remove a pitch pocket. The other method is to use reinforcing plates of spruce or ply on both sides of the spar to restore the shear strength lost to a longitudinal crack, but that is a repair for a crack and not an open void such as a pitch pocket. There must be a enough of a difference in the loss of integrity and strength to a void than a crack to make it applicable in one case, and not in the other. Ryan On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > I agree with you Bill. I plan on buying a new spar and use this defective > one for other stock. I just found it odd that there was no repairs noted for > such a thing, yet if the spar is broke, you can fix it. Doesn't make sense > to me. > > --- On *Thu, 11/13/08, Bill Church * wrote: > > From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 10:08 AM > > Mike, > > If you really want to "repair" the pitch pocket you can always cut it out > and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B > Chapter 1 for details. > > But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about > spending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going > to be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air. That's > most likely to be less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane. And you > will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so the net > cost to you is much less. > > Bill C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
I was just looking at that Ryan. I am wondering if I can mill out the pocke t, insert a plug with epoxy and the maybe add the plates. --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 11:08 AM One of the two repairs listed for broken solid spars is to cut out the fail ure and splice in a good piece of wood. This is the same repair that you wo uld have to execute to remove a pitch pocket. The other method is to use reinforcing plates of spruce or ply on both side s of the spar to restore the shear strength lost to a longitudinal crack, b ut that is a repair for a crack and not an open void such as a pitch pocket . There must be a enough of a difference in the loss of integrity and stren gth to a void than a crack to make it applicable in one case, and not in th e other. Ryan On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Michael Perez w rote: I agree with you Bill. I plan on buying a new spar and use this defective o ne for other stock. I just found it odd that there was no repairs noted for such a thing, yet if the spar is broke, you can fix it. Doesn't make sense to me. --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 10:08 AM Mike, - If you really want to "repair"-the pitch pocket you can always cut it out and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B Cha pter 1 for details. - But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about sp ending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going to be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air.-That's most likely to be-less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane.-A nd you will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so the net cost to you is much less. - Bill C.- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Except for the fact that you now have a larger void, and if the void is the issue in the first place you have only exacerbated the problem. True, it is a filled void, but a void nonetheless. I don't know enough about the issue to say whether or not that would be acceptable. If you were to perform such a repair I would think your DAR is going to want data to back it up. That is not an acceptable spar repair according to AC 43.13, so that may be a problem. Off to work for the day. Have a good one, Ryan On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > I was just looking at that Ryan. I am wondering if I can mill out the > pocket, insert a plug with epoxy and the maybe add the plates. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Agreed. I do not know enough either, I am just throwing out ideas to see what others know. --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 11:43 AM Except for the fact that you now have a larger void, and if the void is the issue in the first place you have only exacerbated the problem. True, it is a filled void, but a void nonetheless. I don't know enough about the issue to say whether or not that would be acceptable. If you were to perform such a repair I would think your DAR is going to want data to back it up. That is not an acceptable spar repair according to AC 43.13, so that may be a problem. Off to work for the day. Have a good one, Ryan On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Michael Perez wrote: I was just looking at that Ryan. I am wondering if I can mill out the pocket, insert a plug with epoxy and the maybe add the plates. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net
Subject: Sky Scout Available
A friend of mine bought an Ford powered Pietenpol Sky Scout but his wife won't let him fly it so he would be interested in selling it. It is a very nice example which has been flown. It has hydraulic brakes and a three piece wing. It was built by a fellow who had previously built several other Pietenpols . The engine has about 25 hours on it and has a pressure oil system. If you are interested let me know and I'll put you in touch with the owner. Bob Humbert N491RH Battle Creek Michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Trim
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Jeff wrote- >Given that you set it and forget it, would a trim tab not do the same for you? Yes. It will trim for a given configuration, which is pretty much what my adjustable setup does since I only set it once and never change it. Some have preferred not to have fixed tabs on their control surfaces for appearance purposes but my airplane already has a tab on the rudder so I wouldn't have cared. I thought I would like the adjustability but have not used it much. >I would still like an in-flight trim solution, but I'd like to know your thoughts. I've seen various ones, including Mike Cuy's simple biasing spring setup with a lever under the pilot's seat. Another one that I've seen is a lot more elaborate, with a trim wheel, bicycle chain segment, and cables/pulleys. I like trim wheels and it's probably what most of us are used to (except those who, like me, learned to trim by cranking a window handle either overhead or on the side of the cockpit). There is also a very simple system used in the Great Lakes and others, where you tug forward or aft on a cable that runs along the side of the cockpit(s) against a friction device. I don't think I've seen one on a Piet but it could work. The beauty of that one is that it can be run to both cockpits with very little extra effort. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout Available
Date: Nov 13, 2008
send him one of these: http://www.flycorvair.com/6522223.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: slowbilder(at)comcast.net To: Piet Group Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout Available A friend of mine bought an Ford powered Pietenpol Sky Scout but his wife won't let him fly it so he would be interested in selling it. It is a very nice example which has been flown. It has hydraulic brakes and a three piece wing. It was built by a fellow who had previously built several other Pietenpols. The engine has about 25 hours on it and has a pressure oil system. If you are interested let me know and I'll put you in touch with the owner. Bob Humbert N491RH Battle Creek Michigan ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: build vs. buy?
From: "Tom Anderson" <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 13, 2008
For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so. Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: wing rib set for sale ?
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Group, I have an interested party who is willing to purchase a complete set of Pietenpol wing ribs (3 piece wing) if you have or know of anyone who might have a set of Charlie Ruebeck ribs or equal. Please contact me off list if you know of a source for a complete set of available Pietenpol ribs. Thank you, Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: build vs. buy?
If you're an A&P, that might work. But for those of us who aren't, buying one from someone else would require us to get our annuals professionally done by somebody else, just as if you'd bought a standard-type. If you built your own, you can get a special A&P certificate for that specific aircraft and do the annuals yourself. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> >Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:26 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? > > >For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? >In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so. > >Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? > >-------- >Location: Wilson, NC > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: wing rib set for sale ?
I've got a set, but honestly, I personally value the ribs at an awful lot more than the money I could possibly get for them, even at 5 or 10 times any reasonable price. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> >Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:53 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing rib set for sale ? > > >Group, > >I have an interested party who is willing to purchase a complete set of >Pietenpol wing ribs (3 piece wing) if you have or know >of anyone who might have a set of Charlie Ruebeck ribs or equal. > >Please contact me off list if you know of a source for a complete set of >available Pietenpol ribs. > >Thank you, > >Mike C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com>
Subject: Re: build vs. buy?
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Tom, This is a great question and one I feel I need to weigh in. This is a big decision you face and one I faced as well. I am an A&P mechanic and a pilot who just got back into the flying game a couple of years ago. I have had some tie to aviation since I was about 15. I am now 44. I have restored several aircraft but have not built from scratch. I have a prewar Taylorcraft to rebuild right now and the desire to build a Pietenpol with my daughter. She is ready to start with me and we are building the wing rib jig together over Thanksgiving break. There's some of the background. A lot more is available if interested. Please note this is only MY opinion, and based on myself and my observations over the years. I have thought this question over many times and seen it in person again and again. If you want to build for the sake of building and creating, then by all means have at it. If you want to build to fly, then get something to fly. You will more than likely, never finish the project. Can you get a good Pietenpol to fly? Absolutely. Can you learn to fly in it? Legally and under the right conditions, yes. Practically speaking, no. Good taildragger instructors are not in abundance and most of them will only instruct in their airplanes. That's where their insurance is. The reality is you will probably need to learn to fly in another airplane, become proficient and confident (those traits are not mutually inclusive) and have at it on your own. Also, please note, that aviation costs money....a lot of it at times. It boils down to how you want to spend your leisure dollar. I used to play a lot of golf when I was between wives. Four hours on a Saturday (at least) and depending on the course and beer cart girl, $100 - $200 to chase a little ball around was not uncommon. Aviation has been cheaper than that for me. So here are my options as I see 'em: 1. Rent, learn to fly and build. What if you don't like flying? You can buy a lot of time, pay as you go and learn to fly while building, also, on a pay as you go basis. No hangar, maintenance and insurance to worry about except a renters policy after you solo. Keep flying and stay current, renting while you build. I have a friend of mine who had a Cardinal RG. It flew all the time. He got close to finishing his Marquardt Charger and sold the Cardinal. 18 years later he is still close on the Charger but not current or proficient. Luckily his son has an L-2 and he is back in the air. 2. Buy an airplane and learn to fly it. If you don't mind what you are flying, and can pass a medical, 150s can be had for well under 20k if you look. You will get your money out of it when it is time to sell. The same can't necessarily be said for a Pietenpol. If you are a big guy and can pass a medical, Tri-Pacers are not much more. I know of a Tri-Pacer just out of annual that could be had for probably 15k. No beauty queen but a pretty solid airframe. They are out there if you are willing to look. 3. Want to own but can't pass a medical? T-Crafts are still reasonable and once in awhile a solid Champ shows up under 20K. Cubs are a premium because they are Cubs but you will never lose money on any of these three. All are taildraggers so you will need a taildragger instructor out of the box. 4. Build, then learn to fly. I always see this as the least doable option because of the time and money it takes before one can even get in the air. You will still have to rent to fly, more than likely, and you will be out the same amount of money as you would have in option one, except you have not learned to fly and become proficient during the build time. This is how I see it and certainly am no authority on all aviation. So what did I do? My wife made me get back into the flying part of aviation. For this reason, I am to refer to her as the best wife ever. She just may be. I am lucky in that I have as a good friend, Steve Krog. He and his wife Sharon run the Cub Club, about 35 minutes from my house. If you want a little perspective on the Krog's, see the article in the November 2007 issue of Sport Aviation. I had a 20 year flying layoff and forgot how much fun it was. I got my tailwheel endorsement after about six hours and started having a blast. The opportunity to buy a Cub (through information of a very good friend I met on this list) came up and purchased it in February of this year. I secured a hangar in Hartford with the rest of the Cubs and flew the J-3 from North Carolina to Wisconsin in early May of this year. It was my first cross country flight in 20 years. A big adventure! One other thing that I might as well mention. This is the finest internet list of which I have been a part. I have met several life- long friends from here. We all make the annual trip to Brodhead and have a great time for a couple of days. This list has done much to revitalize the Pietenpol design and show it to younger builders who are turning out excellent versions of this little airplane. So, if I were Tom Anderson what would I really do? I would see if I could take a couple or three weeks, go the Hartford, WI and learn to fly a Cub as a Sport Pilot. Last I knew, the hourly rate was $85. Cheap in this day and age. Then I would buy a Champ to fly, while I built my Pietenpol. When that was done, I would sell the Champ for more than I paid for it and as to paraphrase Walt, "Life would be grand." Of course your mileage may vary, -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com On Nov 13, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > > > > For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, > would you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? > In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, > and a couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm > likely not going to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In > fact, I've come to the conclusion that it may be in my best interest > to purchase a well-built one that's already got the minimum hours > flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids have > left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I > want, if I'm still inclined to do so. > > Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? > > -------- > Location: Wilson, NC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: build vs. buy?
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Not completely correct. You would need to get a "condition inspection" not an annual for an experimental airplane. A lot of A & P's I know will let you do most, if not all, of the condition inspection under their supervision. On the experimentals I have owned I have usually paid between $50.00 and $150.00 for a condition inspection. Well worth the price to have another set of trained eyes looking over everything. I like to fly and can't affort to own a plane and build at the same time so buying a completed Piet was a good way for me to go. Besides, an experimentel airplane is never done and I'm always tinkering with it anyway. If you follow the airplanes selling on E-bay and Barnstormers have you ever wondered why there are so many homebuilt planes with 0 or very few hours for sale? So many of these have been built by folks that are going to wait until the plane is finished to learn to fly. Many times they have either gotten too old or they find they really don't like to fly. If you love to build then build for the love of it, not to get a cheap airplane. Many time (really I'd say most times) you can buy a well built experimental for less than you can build one for. My 2 cents worth Gene in beautiful Tennessee (spent the first half of the afternoon flying the Piet and the second half riding the Gold Wing. Life just doesn't get any better) Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? > > If you're an A&P, that might work. But for those of us who aren't, buying > one from someone else would require us to get our annuals professionally > done by somebody else, just as if you'd bought a standard-type. If you > built your own, you can get a special A&P certificate for that specific > aircraft and do the annuals yourself. > > Jim Ash > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> >>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:26 PM >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? >> >> >> >>For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would >>you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? >>In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a >>couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going >>to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the >>conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one >>that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly >>it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age, >>build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so. >> >>Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? >> >>-------- >>Location: Wilson, NC >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 7:58 AM > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Spar stock pictures
Here are some pictures of my spar stock as I received them...nothing has been done to them. These pictures represent what I feel to be the worse areas of the boards, they only improve form these pictures. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Spar stock pictures #2
A few more. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Resessed straps
Just a hypothetical question here, lets take the flying strut as an example . Instead of making three pieces and welding them together at the top. Then taking it and fitting it over the strut and running bolts through it, how about making the two side pieces only and mill out the strut to the exact s ize and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place and run the bolts through . This will give you the two fittings on either side of the spar, both nest led in its own recess, both flush with the spar face,-epoxied and bolted. What say you? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Nov 13, 2008
I guess I'm not sure why you would go through all of that trouble and probably compromise the strength of the spar in the process. Please leave it like it is on the plans and when you are bouncing around in turbulence you will rest assured that you are hanging on a sound design with nearly 80 years of proven service. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214034#214034 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: build vs. buy?
I guess I'm a little surprised to learn the rules are different for experimentals. For years, I thought they were the same. So what's the difference between a conditional inspection and an annual? Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Gene & Tammy <zharvey(at)bellsouth.net> >Sent: Nov 13, 2008 7:23 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? > > >Not completely correct. You would need to get a "condition inspection" not >an annual for an experimental airplane. A lot of A & P's I know will let >you do most, if not all, of the condition inspection under their >supervision. On the experimentals I have owned I have usually paid between >$50.00 and $150.00 for a condition inspection. Well worth the price to >have another set of trained eyes looking over everything. I like to fly and >can't affort to own a plane and build at the same time so buying a completed >Piet was a good way for me to go. Besides, an experimentel airplane is >never done and I'm always tinkering with it anyway. >If you follow the airplanes selling on E-bay and Barnstormers have you ever >wondered why there are so many homebuilt planes with 0 or very few hours for >sale? So many of these have been built by folks that are going to wait >until the plane is finished to learn to fly. Many times they have either >gotten too old or they find they really don't like to fly. If you love to >build then build for the love of it, not to get a cheap airplane. Many time >(really I'd say most times) you can buy a well built experimental for less >than you can build one for. >My 2 cents worth >Gene in beautiful Tennessee (spent the first half of the afternoon flying >the Piet and the second half riding the Gold Wing. Life just doesn't get >any better) > > >Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:51 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? > > >> >> If you're an A&P, that might work. But for those of us who aren't, buying >> one from someone else would require us to get our annuals professionally >> done by somebody else, just as if you'd bought a standard-type. If you >> built your own, you can get a special A&P certificate for that specific >> aircraft and do the annuals yourself. >> >> Jim Ash >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> >>>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:26 PM >>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? >>> >>> >>> >>>For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would >>>you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? >>>In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a >>>couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going >>>to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the >>>conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one >>>that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly >>>it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age, >>>build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so. >>> >>>Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? >>> >>>-------- >>>Location: Wilson, NC >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Checked by AVG. >> 7:58 AM >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Lay it flat and run a tight string from end to end parallel to the straightest section near the edge. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber I'll have to look at the bow more. While I had it on the floor, I looked at it while standing. I'll get it on a better surface and get down there with it and take a better look. The one end of one board that I did look at had an almost vertical grain on the end, so it looked. A slight angle, but not very much. I can put up more pictures either later today or tomorrow. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 11/13/2008 6:01 PM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout Available
Date: Nov 13, 2008
This guy should be rich by now! :-) Clif send him one of these: http://www.flycorvair.com/6522223.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Mike, Are you coming up with these ideas just to get a reaction out of people? If I read your question correctly, you are proposing carving recesses into the spar, so that the brackets that attach the lift struts to the wing will sit flush with the faces of the spar. Your question begs another question...Why? Assuming that you had a solid 3/4" spar, and you routed a 1/8" deep slot for the fitting on each side, you will have effectively weakened your spar by 33%. And the benefit of this action would be... nothing. I have no idea why you would want the fittings to be flush with the faces of the spar. The recesses would do nothing other than weaken the spar. The epoxy bond between the steel strap and the wood can not be relied on to carry a load. The load is transferred from the fitting to the wood by two means: One is the bolts which pass through the fittings and the wood. The other is the metal strap across the top of the spar. Ideally, this would be a single bent piece of metal, rather than three pieces welded, but to make this fitting in one piece is not very feasible, thus it is designed as a welded fitting. I recall an earlier post of yours, indicating that you have capabilities in machining, but not in welding. Give in, Mike. You are either going to learn to weld, or find someone to do it for you. This old wooden airplane has lots of parts that NEED to be welded. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214059#214059 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marc Dumay" <captmarcus(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Brakes
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Good day fellow mentors. Having no experience yet flying a tail dragger, especially a Pietenpol, I was curious as to what most Piet builders think of having brakes or not on their aircraft? We will be flying both grass and hard surface runways. We plan on having brakes, but not brake pedals. We are thinking of having a brake handle like on a motorcycle. The drawback, would be that we don't have individual braking " left or right", just both wheels would brake the same amount. We will have a antilock regulator and proportioning valve. We hope to use a steerable tail wheel, and are a bit concerned about the ease of taxing and turning without individual brakes on our Piet. Any input or advice would be appreciated. Marc and Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: build vs. buy
Date: Nov 13, 2008
Can of worms here but I'll give my own opinion. 1. If you don't have a license, learn to fly in rented aircraft. Much easier than thinking you can build your own and then learn to fly in it. 2. Once you have your license, if you're a tinkerer or a builder or a gear-head or have a shop, you'll be happiest if you build your own airplane, whether it's from scratch or if you purchase a project and finish it. 3. If you're not a shop person or you're not sure, buy a completed aircraft and be flying in it tomorrow. Once you have it and are flying, you can tweak it to personalize it, or overhaul things you don't like, or modify to your heart's content (assuming it's an experimental, and that's what we're discussing here). There are plenty on the market for $15K or less, depending on finish and quality. That's the cost of buying a new car these days, so what's another vehicle in the driveway ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
Date: Nov 13, 2008
You definitely DO NOT want to mill slots across your spars. Most of the stress from flight loads concentrates at this location. If you made a chart of measured compression loads along a beam with the support in the middle it would be a parabolic in nature, not straight. Even if this weren't the case, reducing the width of the spar at any point negates having that width anywhere else on this beam so that material becomes useless weight. This is the " weakest link " principle in living colour. :-) "Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty." - Mark Twain, writer and humorist Miserably yours, Clif , Hahahaha. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez how about making the two side pieces only and mill out the strut to the exact size and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place and run the bolts through. This will give you the two fittings on either side of the spar, both nestled in its own recess, both flush with the spar face, ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Brakes
Well, the Tri-Pacer used the Johnson bar approach. If I recall it was supposedly due to having a glut of Cub master cylinders that needed to be used up. Either way, that is a nosewheel aircraft with a steerable nosewheel, not a tailwheel airplane. One other problem with having to operate a brake handle is that you are now removing your hand from the throttle (or the stick, but I would say you probably ought not do that). I would think that it would be inadvisable to do when landing, because the rudder is providing most of your directional control, and if you need a quick blast of power to keep yourself going where you want you now have the half second of time it takes to move your hand back to the throttle. Maybe that is enough time, maybe not. Not an issue on a nosewheel airplane with a steerable nosewheel, but on a tailwheel airplane it could be more of an issue. You could try to attach your handle to the stick, but that is going to only increase the complexity of the installation. If your master cylinder is located under the rear panel or on the side of the rear pit you are also going to have longer hose runs. Check out Kurt Shipman's brake setup (which I'm sure is based on Bill Rewey's): http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Kurt%20Shipman/P1010101.JPG And Bill's http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Bill%20Rewey/DSCF0016.JPG A pair of master cylinders on each side of the front cockpit, a few relatively short brake lines, and you are done. No need for an antilock regulator or proportioning valve. You have toe braking, and you can keep your hands on the stick and throttle. That's what we will be doing, but there are always other ways to skin a cat (or stop a Piet). On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Marc Dumay wrote: > Good day fellow mentors. > > > Having no experience yet flying a tail dragger, especially a Pietenpol, I > was curious as to what most Piet builders think of having brakes or not on > their aircraft? > > We will be flying both grass and hard surface runways. > > > We plan on having brakes, but not brake pedals. We are thinking of having a > brake handle like on a motorcycle. > > The drawback, would be that we don't have individual braking " left or > right", just both wheels would brake the same amount. > > We will have a antilock regulator and proportioning valve. > > We hope to use a steerable tail wheel, and are a bit concerned about the > ease of taxing and turning without individual brakes on our Piet. > > > Any input or advice would be appreciated. > > > Marc and Larry > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 13, 2008
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
Clif and Bill ably covered the answer to this question already, so I won't belabor their points. I would ask, well, why? I'm curious what your rationale would be for wanting to make such a modification? Maybe, as Bill mentioned, part of it may be wanting to avoid welding the fitting. To that end I will quote the learned gentleman from Ohio, Mike Cuy: "I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now. Very reasonable and *if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint. *I was amazed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed the filler rod, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work who taught me over a few lunch hours." If you can machine metal, I bet you could finger paint. Maybe you could buy Mike a few lunches? ;) Have a good night, Ryan On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > Just a hypothetical question here, lets take the flying strut as an > example. Instead of making three pieces and welding them together at the > top. Then taking it and fitting it over the strut and running bolts through > it, how about making the two side pieces only and mill out the strut to the > exact size and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place and run the bolts > through. This will give you the two fittings on either side of the spar, > both nestled in its own recess, both flush with the spar face, epoxied and > bolted. What say you? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%...
As of the 13th, the Fund Raiser is currently about 30% behind last year in terms of the number of Contributions. Yet, oddly the number of messages posted per day is up by 10 to 20% on the average. It costs real money to run these Lists and they are supported 100% though your Contributions during the Fund Raiser. Won't you please take a minute right now to make your Contribution to keep these Lists up and running? Contribution Page: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: spar thickness reduction
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Group, Mike P. tossed his idea around with me yesterday offlist and I said that I didn't stray from the plans very much as my goal was to build-to-fly but that you guys would know if his idea was structurally sound or not. I made many cosmetic changes to the Piet but can't really offer mechanical or structural advice but in reading some of the replies to reducing the spar thickness at any point raises a question: Why route a 1" or 3/4" spar then ? From what I'm reading the other 'meat' left thicker than that does you no good so why spend the money for a 1" or 3/4" spar if you're going to route it in many areas to become essentially 3/4" or 1/2" at it's 'weakest' point ? I know there is some benefit from I-beam configurations which remain after one routes the spar but not being a mechanical engineer this just is my gut question de jour on this subject. Mike C. PS-- An I am gently torturing Mike into taking up TIG welding as if you've ever seen his craftsmanship on other things his welds would be a thing of beauty. Everything that Mike produces looks like it came directly from some precision factory that makes parts for Air Force One. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Brakes
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
I primarily fly on grass, but occasionally fly off pavement. I use my brakes A LOT. I would not consider flying a plane with no brakes on pavement. Differential braking is very nice, particularly for parking in taight spaces. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marc Dumay Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brakes Good day fellow mentors. Having no experience yet flying a tail dragger, especially a Pietenpol, I was curious as to what most Piet builders think of having brakes or not on their aircraft? We will be flying both grass and hard surface runways. We plan on having brakes, but not brake pedals. We are thinking of having a brake handle like on a motorcycle. The drawback, would be that we don't have individual braking " left or right", just both wheels would brake the same amount. We will have a antilock regulator and proportioning valve. We hope to use a steerable tail wheel, and are a bit concerned about the ease of taxing and turning without individual brakes on our Piet. Any input or advice would be appreciated. Marc and Larry _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
I am not looking for a reaction, I am looking for some sound advise on some thing that people may not have considered.--I miss-spoke before. When I see the way things are done on the prints, I wonder if there is a way to d o it differently. Not that the original design is bad, I just wonder if ove r the years anyone has even thought about other ways. - I understand the need for the strap to be over the strut, but there are the fittings on the center section that do not go over the strut... the wing a nd cabane fittings. They bolt on the strut with some ply wood underneath. S ome people rout out their spars down to 1/2 in the web area. If I were to g o as deep as 1/8" , which is deeper then needed, I would still have the 1/2 " web as well as the two metal fittings both epoxied and bolted. I am no ex pert, but I don't see the strength loss. Granted, the wing strut fitting I understand, but what about the center section fittings? - With permission Bill, I would like to email you directly my ideas in more d etail with pictures rather then tie up the whole list. It seems that maybe putting my thoughts out to everyone is not that good of an idea. (Space wis e.) - - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: spar thickness reduction
Date: Nov 14, 2008
Mike: A 1" I-beam has the same strength as a solid 1" spar but less weight. That is why you would pay the money for a 1" spar. I just finished routing my spars (one-piece wing, so 30' long spars) and wish I had weighed them before and after. I can tell you it is a major difference when you pock them up, though! I looked into a built-up spar with a 1/2" web and 1/4" capstrips on either side, but it was more expensive than solid 1" spars. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]<mailto:Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: spar thickness reduction Group, Mike P. tossed his idea around with me yesterday offlist and I said that I didn't stray from the plans very much as my goal was to build-to-fly but that you guys would know if his idea was structurally sound or not. I made many cosmetic changes to the Piet but can't really offer mechanical or structural advice but in reading some of the replies to reducing the spar thickness at any point raises a question: Why route a 1" or 3/4" spar then ? From what I'm reading the other 'meat' left thicker than that does you no good so why spend the money for a 1" or 3/4" spar if you're going to route it in many areas to become essentially 3/4" or 1/2" at it's 'weakest' point ? I know there is some benefit from I-beam configurations which remain after one routes the spar but not being a mechanical engineer this just is my gut question de jour on this subject. Mike C. PS-- An I am gently torturing Mike into taking up TIG welding as if you've ever seen his craftsmanship on other things his welds would be a thing of beauty. Everything that Mike produces looks like it came directly from some precision factory that makes parts for Air Force One. http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
I admit that I don't weld. But, my ideas stem from more of a "why has this been done this way and I wonder if anyone has tried to improve on it?" appr oach. If I need something welded, as I see and hear that I will, I will fin d someone to do it for me.- The wing strut fitting was a bad example, but I would be more then willing to post my entire idea/thought process with p ictures to those interested. I am not sure now, that it is worth-tying up the list over it. --- On Fri, 11/14/08, Ryan Mueller wrote: From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Resessed straps Date: Friday, November 14, 2008, 12:22 AM Clif and Bill ably covered the answer to this question already, so I won't belabor their points. I would ask, well, why? I'm curious what your rationa le would be for wanting to make such a modification? Maybe, as Bill mentioned, part of it may be wanting to avoid welding the fi tting. To that end I will quote the learned gentleman from Ohio, Mike Cuy: "I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now.- Ver y reasonable and if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint. I was am azed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed the filler ro d, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work who taught me ov er a few lunch hours." If you can machine metal, I bet you could finger paint. Maybe you could buy Mike a few lunches? ;) Have a good night, Ryan On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Michael Perez w rote: Just a hypothetical question here, lets take the flying strut as an example . Instead of making three pieces and welding them together at the top. Then taking it and fitting it over the strut and running bolts through it, how about making the two side pieces only and mill out the strut to the exact s ize and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place and run the bolts through . This will give you the two fittings on either side of the spar, both nest led in its own recess, both flush with the spar face,-epoxied and bolted. What say you? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: spar thickness reduction
From: "colinc" <cheesecolin(at)aol.com>
Date: Nov 14, 2008
Consider that the fibres at the top and bottom of the spar are working in tension and compression and their effectiveness/stress is proportional to the square of their distance from the neutral axis. You will understand that those forces reduce as you move toward the axis so that wood is less 'useful' in resisting bending. However the wood in the middle does have to work to keep those highly loaded parts apart and to carry the shear loads in the spar. However it can be routed away in areas where it does just that job and isn't carrying any loads into the spar/fittings. Narrowing the whole spar will reduce its beam strength proportionate to the reduction, ie. 25% width reduction = 25% capacity reduction. Not a good thing to do. The best way to make the spar more economically is to go for a top/bottom spruce members with a ply web. You'll see many pictures of Pietenpols built that way on the internet. The Jim Will's wing design , the only one approved in the UK, is built like that but also gains considerable strength from using a ply D-box leading edge which is integral to the spar design. That design has also facilitated a max weight of 1200 lbs in the UK. Hope that helps? Colin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214166#214166 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <GeneRambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
Date: Nov 14, 2008
Michael: The depth of the routing is not the issue. The routing according to the plans is rounded off at the edges and are not aligned straight across the spar. The routing you describe for the fitting would substantially decrease the strength of the spar in that location as well as add two sharp stress risers that would ensure that the spar would fail at that point. What you suggested is extremely dangerous. What is more, I cannot understand what you want to gain by doing it? The welded piece across the top of the strut fitting is really unnecessary. I know, everyone is going to call it a "safety strap", but if you pull three bolts out of the spar, that little strap over the top is not going to do anything. You note that the cabane fittings do not have the strap. As I said, it really serves no purpose on the strut fitting, but the cabanes carry basically no load at all (more on the 3-piece wing than the one-piece), so even Bernie did not think it was necessary. Do not hesitate to share your ideas. that way, the really bad ones may get headed off, and the good ones will be shared. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez<mailto:speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Resessed straps I am not looking for a reaction, I am looking for some sound advise on something that people may not have considered. I miss-spoke before. When I see the way things are done on the prints, I wonder if there is a way to do it differently. Not that the original design is bad, I just wonder if over the years anyone has even thought about other ways. I understand the need for the strap to be over the strut, but there are the fittings on the center section that do not go over the strut... the wing and cabane fittings. They bolt on the strut with some ply wood underneath. Some people rout out their spars down to 1/2 in the web area. If I were to go as deep as 1/8" , which is deeper then needed, I would still have the 1/2" web as well as the two metal fittings both epoxied and bolted. I am no expert, but I don't see the strength loss. Granted, the wing strut fitting I understand, but what about the center section fittings? With permission Bill, I would like to email you directly my ideas in more detail with pictures rather then tie up the whole list. It seems that maybe putting my thoughts out to everyone is not that good of an idea. (Space wise.) 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics. com/contribution"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://ww w.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
Date: Nov 14, 2008
I used the spar strap design from the Britts built up spar design on my solid 3/4" spruce spars with 1/8" ply under the straps. The Britt's straps are longer than the origional Piet design and align with the struts at 28 degrees. By being aligned with the struts all three bolts carry the load instead of concentrating the load on the lower bolt as in the origional design. speading the bolt holes farther apart seems like it would help the integrity of the spar and they don't require any welding as there is no strap required across the top. Just another option. Ed G. >From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Resessed straps >Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:29:06 -0800 (PST) > >I am not looking for a reaction, I am looking for some sound advise on >something that people may not have considered.I miss-spoke before. When I >see the way things are done on the prints, I wonder if there is a way to do >it differently. Not that the original design is bad, I just wonder if over >the years anyone has even thought about other ways. > >I understand the need for the strap to be over the strut, but there are the >fittings on the center section that do not go over the strut... the wing >and cabane fittings. They bolt on the strut with some ply wood underneath. >Some people rout out their spars down to 1/2 in the web area. If I were to >go as deep as 1/8" , which is deeper then needed, I would still have the >1/2" web as well as the two metal fittings both epoxied and bolted. I am no >expert, but I don't see the strength loss. Granted, the wing strut fitting >I understand, but what about the center section fittings? > >With permission Bill, I would like to email you directly my ideas in more >detail with pictures rather then tie up the whole list. It seems that maybe >putting my thoughts out to everyone is not that good of an idea. (Space >wise.) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: build vs. buy?
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: hvandervoo(at)aol.com
Tom, I build mine for about 15 K. But did not put much effort in scrounging for the best deal. Bought most airframe parts from either ACS or Wick's Corvair engine parts from Clarks. If I would build one again I feel confident I could shave off at least 2K in cost. Hans NX15KV (2005) -----Original Message----- From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 3:26 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so. Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
Date: Nov 14, 2008
Subject: Re: build vs. buy?
I'll throw my 2 cents into this. I'm building a Mustang II from kits. I have three kids, oldest 4, youngest 1. My wife originally was "in". She was all for it, yes dear, I know it will take a lot of time, I want you to be happy all that. 4 yrs later, I'm still building, and get maybe 24 hours of work in per month. I say per month, because I may go two or three weeks with no work being done, then put in a couple 10 or 12 hour days. Nights don't work for me because I like to see my kids before bed time, and by the time they are all in bed, and I see the wife for a bit, it's time for me to go to bed. I could stay up till midnight working on the plane, but I have to maintain a full time job, like everyone else. You can do it, with a family. But, be prepared to spend 5-10 yrs building, as you have to maintain a good balance between family, work, and building. It is very frustrating at times. Maybe the hardest part, and financially most dangerous, is when you drag the project out so long, the chances of it ever being finished drop dramatically. If I had it to do over, I think I might buy a completed plane. But, I'm in too deep to stop mid project and take a beating on reselling the parts. I do enjoy the work WHEN I can do it. In the mean time, I dream about the day I can fly again! That's my take. You need to figure out how much time you can really put into building. Boyce ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: build vs. buy?
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
A very good post, John. I agree completely. I already knew how to fly when I started my Pietenpol, but had not flown a taildragger for several years. I bought a Cessna 140 for $11,500 and flew it for 4 years while building the Pietenpol to get my tailwheel skills back (and then got a couple of hours in a J-3 the week before I flew the Piet for the first time). Sold the 140 for $14,000. If you are careful and shop around, there are good deals out there and you can find good airplanes for not a lot of money. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hofmann Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy? Tom, This is a great question and one I feel I need to weigh in. This is a big decision you face and one I faced as well. I am an A&P mechanic and a pilot who just got back into the flying game a couple of years ago. I have had some tie to aviation since I was about 15. I am now 44. I have restored several aircraft but have not built from scratch. I have a prewar Taylorcraft to rebuild right now and the desire to build a Pietenpol with my daughter. She is ready to start with me and we are building the wing rib jig together over Thanksgiving break. There's some of the background. A lot more is available if interested. Please note this is only MY opinion, and based on myself and my observations over the years. I have thought this question over many times and seen it in person again and again. If you want to build for the sake of building and creating, then by all means have at it. If you want to build to fly, then get something to fly. You will more than likely, never finish the project. Can you get a good Pietenpol to fly? Absolutely. Can you learn to fly in it? Legally and under the right conditions, yes. Practically speaking, no. Good taildragger instructors are not in abundance and most of them will only instruct in their airplanes. That's where their insurance is. The reality is you will probably need to learn to fly in another airplane, become proficient and confident (those traits are not mutually inclusive) and have at it on your own. Also, please note, that aviation costs money....a lot of it at times. It boils down to how you want to spend your leisure dollar. I used to play a lot of golf when I was between wives. Four hours on a Saturday (at least) and depending on the course and beer cart girl, $100 - $200 to chase a little ball around was not uncommon. Aviation has been cheaper than that for me. So here are my options as I see 'em: 1. Rent, learn to fly and build. What if you don't like flying? You can buy a lot of time, pay as you go and learn to fly while building, also, on a pay as you go basis. No hangar, maintenance and insurance to worry about except a renters policy after you solo. Keep flying and stay current, renting while you build. I have a friend of mine who had a Cardinal RG. It flew all the time. He got close to finishing his Marquardt Charger and sold the Cardinal. 18 years later he is still close on the Charger but not current or proficient. Luckily his son has an L-2 and he is back in the air. 2. Buy an airplane and learn to fly it. If you don't mind what you are flying, and can pass a medical, 150s can be had for well under 20k if you look. You will get your money out of it when it is time to sell. The same can't necessarily be said for a Pietenpol. If you are a big guy and can pass a medical, Tri-Pacers are not much more. I know of a Tri-Pacer just out of annual that could be had for probably 15k. No beauty queen but a pretty solid airframe. They are out there if you are willing to look. 3. Want to own but can't pass a medical? T-Crafts are still reasonable and once in awhile a solid Champ shows up under 20K. Cubs are a premium because they are Cubs but you will never lose money on any of these three. All are taildraggers so you will need a taildragger instructor out of the box. 4. Build, then learn to fly. I always see this as the least doable option because of the time and money it takes before one can even get in the air. You will still have to rent to fly, more than likely, and you will be out the same amount of money as you would have in option one, except you have not learned to fly and become proficient during the build time. This is how I see it and certainly am no authority on all aviation. So what did I do? My wife made me get back into the flying part of aviation. For this reason, I am to refer to her as the best wife ever. She just may be. I am lucky in that I have as a good friend, Steve Krog. He and his wife Sharon run the Cub Club, about 35 minutes from my house. If you want a little perspective on the Krog's, see the article in the November 2007 issue of Sport Aviation. I had a 20 year flying layoff and forgot how much fun it was. I got my tailwheel endorsement after about six hours and started having a blast. The opportunity to buy a Cub (through information of a very good friend I met on this list) came up and purchased it in February of this year. I secured a hangar in Hartford with the rest of the Cubs and flew the J-3 from North Carolina to Wisconsin in early May of this year. It was my first cross country flight in 20 years. A big adventure! One other thing that I might as well mention. This is the finest internet list of which I have been a part. I have met several life-long friends from here. We all make the annual trip to Brodhead and have a great time for a couple of days. This list has done much to revitalize the Pietenpol design and show it to younger builders who are turning out excellent versions of this little airplane. So, if I were Tom Anderson what would I really do? I would see if I could take a couple or three weeks, go the Hartford, WI and learn to fly a Cub as a Sport Pilot. Last I knew, the hourly rate was $85. Cheap in this day and age. Then I would buy a Champ to fly, while I built my Pietenpol. When that was done, I would sell the Champ for more than I paid for it and as to paraphrase Walt, "Life would be grand." Of course your mileage may vary, -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com On Nov 13, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would you be willing to share how much your overall costs were? In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so. Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion? -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979 -- Please Support Your Lists This (And Get -Matt Dralle, List - The --> &n======================= _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
I believe in the supplemental plans, (I don't have them with me now) the wing strut "strap" is indeed longer then the original strap. This strap is also at a smaller angle, (more sloped to the spar) then the original. Are you saying that this configuration does not need the metal welded piece over the top of the spar? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Resessed fittings #2
As I said in the original thread, my example using the wing strut fitting w as a poor example. I have no plans, (at the moment- 8^)-- ) to change it. - My thoughts are on the center section. You have the 7" or so piece that is angled and attaches to the wing, you have the cabane fitting over that and you have the two piece pulley fitting as well. From what I can recall, (I d on't have the prints in front of me) the added plywood piece is placed in a way as to keep the fittings that are stacked over other fittings on the sa me plane. In other words it acts as a spacer. - I have designed a new fitting that uses all of the existing bolt holes for all of the above fittings in there current locations and it incorporates th e strap, the cabane and the bottom pulley piece as one. The top pulley stra p piece is then bent and bolted through my designed piece and through the s par as originally shown. - Since most people end up milling their rib vertical brace to allow for this fitting to pass by it, I thought to just recess the spar and nestle this n ew fitting, as one piece flush with the spar face. - This is just a brief summation of what I had planned. If interested, I can get some pictures together and re post a better narration. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
Date: Nov 14, 2008
No... the British designed spar straps do not use a welded strap over the top of the spar because there is no torque induced by the pull of the struts like there is in the origional design. Because of their increased angle they do need to be moved outboard about and inch to clear the adjacent rib but that's no biggie unless you learn it the hard way like I did. Ed G. >From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Resessed straps >Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:11:20 -0800 (PST) > >I believe in the supplemental plans, (I don't have them with me now) the >wing strut "strap" is indeed longer then the original strap. This strap is >also at a smaller angle, (more sloped to the spar) then the original. Are >you saying that this configuration does not need the metal welded piece >over the top of the spar? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Re: Resessed straps
Date: Nov 14, 2008
Okay, just checking. This last question just seemed to be a little "out in left field". Thought you might be pulling our collective leg. As for the question of whether there are other ways to do things, of course ther are other ways things can be done. There almost always is (in any field). Many people, for one reason or another, have decided to "improve" on the old design. Some ideas work, and others don't. The most important thing to keep in mind is to have a valid reason for changing anything. When you make one change, it often will have other, possibly unforseen impacts of several other components or functions of those components. And, before going ahead with any change, one must make sure that the new design will not compromise the integrity of the resulting structure. But it has been said many times over that analysis shows that Mr. Pietenpol pretty much did whatever he did for a reason. The design works very well the way it has been drawn. The Air Camper is a sturdy design which allows it to be built by a person with average skills, and with everyday equipment. It is surprising that Pietenpol was able to do what he did, given his lack of formal training in engineering or aeronautics. Probably the best known example of someone thinking of other ways to build a Pietenpol was Mr. John Grega, who published his plans for the GN-1 Aircamper. This design was touted as a "modern" Pietenpol, and incorporated many design changes. Some would argue that the design changes were not improvements - just changes. The wing fittings (that attach to the lift struts) carry basically the whole load when in flight. The cabanes carry very little (something like 50 pounds per cabane) when in flight. Thus, the wing fittings need to be much stronger than the cabane fittings. In general, the spars should not be messed with. They are the main structural component of the wings, and any cutting into that wood, to a certain extent, compromises the strength of that member. Having said that, we must recognise that a certain amount of cutting is necessary - namely the drilling of bolt holes for the attachment of necessary fittings. After all, it doesn't matter how strong the wing is, if the wing isn't attached to the fuselage. The spar acts like an I-beam, such as you might see in any steel structure. When a beam is loaded horizontally (like a wing, or a roof) the top part of the beam is placed in compression, and the bottom part is placed in tension. The maximum stresses are in the top-most and bottom-most parts of the beam. The very center of the beam is not stressed (neutral). Because of this loading, scientists (engineers) determined that beams could be made much lighter, by using the I-beam shape, as opposed to a solid rectangular shape. The resulting I-beam is almost (but not quite) as strong as a solid rectangular beam of the same dimensions. Since the top-most and bottom-most edges of the spar are under the maximum stresses, they become the most critical parts of the beam. Any reduction in their cross-section (notches, holes, etc.) will dramatically reduce the strength of the beam. When a 1" spruce spar is routed, it is essential that the top and bottom parts, which do not get routed are left intact, as these will be carrying the highest stresses. As for direct contact with me, offlist - no problem - fire away. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Resessed straps I am not looking for a reaction, I am looking for some sound advise on something that people may not have considered. I miss-spoke before. When I see the way things are done on the prints, I wonder if there is a way to do it differently. Not that the original design is bad, I just wonder if over the years anyone has even thought about other ways. I understand the need for the strap to be over the strut, but there are the fittings on the center section that do not go over the strut... the wing and cabane fittings. They bolt on the strut with some ply wood underneath. Some people rout out their spars down to 1/2 in the web area. If I were to go as deep as 1/8" , which is deeper then needed, I would still have the 1/2" web as well as the two metal fittings both epoxied and bolted. I am no expert, but I don't see the strength loss. Granted, the wing strut fitting I understand, but what about the center section fittings? With permission Bill, I would like to email you directly my ideas in more detail with pictures rather then tie up the whole list. It seems that maybe putting my thoughts out to everyone is not that good of an idea. (Space wise.) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wing rib set for sale ?
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Nov 14, 2008
I HAVE A COMPLETE SET OF GN1 RIBS, SPARS AND ALL THE METAL FITTINGs (LAZER CUT) FOR SALE IF THAT INTERESTS HIM. ($800.00) Chris crusch(at)lakefield.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214226#214226 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roy Brooks <n900ml(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: MY CONTINENTAL A-80 AIRCRAFT ENGINE on EBAY & YouTube.
Date: Nov 14, 2008
PIETERS=85 I am selling my Continental A-80 engine (as I advised here a month or so ag o) and now seen on YouTube. Just type in =93A-80 Continental Aircraft Engin e.=94 If that doesn=92t work=2C use this direct link =85 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O31jul0OYUI This engine will go on Ebay and I=92ll post a note here to give interested parties a =93heads-up=94 the day it goes up for auction. It will be sold th rough Ebay to the highest bidder. I=92ll probably start the auction at $1. It will be necessary for the winning bidder to pick the engine up at Bruce Field in Ballinger=2C Texas. Here are some details about the history of this engine. This is a long stor y and if you ARE NOT in the market for an engine being sold for PARTS ONLY please save yourself some time and don=92t bother reading this. I made this video for YouTube in order to show some of the =93highlights=94 about the overhaul on this engine done by my father in 2005. My father was an A&P Mechanic and had 5 type ratings in jets when he retire d. He overhauled my Continental A-80 engine and passed away soon after sign ing the engine logbook. It is bittersweet having to sell this engine=2C be cause his signature in the logbook is the last thing he ever signed before he passed away in 2005. My dad learned he had a relapse of colon cancer and at age 85=2C and he sim ply decided NOT to undergo chemotherapy a second-time after seeing my mom g o though cancer treatment with chemo and radiation not working for her=2C j ust a year earlier. Getting my dad to overhaul the engine helped to keep h im occupied when that he was living alone as a widower and I simply did not have the savvy to attempt this myself. My dad was tough as nails and the last thing he wanted to accomplish in lif e was to overhaul my Continental A-80 engine. When he was 78=2C he overhaul ed my Lycoming 0-320 E2A engine. In my youth=2C he overhauled my 1963 Ford van engine=2C my 1965 Mustang engine and transmission=2C half a dozen motor cycle engines=2C he built boats=2C campers=2C travel trailers. When he was younger=2C he rebuilt and flew several old Army Air Corp trainers. He was a n instructor pilot during WW2 in the Army Air Corp. The man was a gifted m echanic and I was the =93artist=94. He built stuff=2C I made them look nice . It was a great partnership for 54 years. When he was 82=2C he bought a Vo lkswagen Westfalia and we pulled the engine from that (see this on YouTube =2C =93Rebuilding my dad=92s Westfalia). I can=92t even remember how many VW based dune buggies my dad and I built=2C but it was ALWAYS a common sigh t to see split engine cases and air cooled engines in our garage when I was young. I am not in the position to warranty this engine or guarantee the sufficien cy of this engine for use in either a certificated or experimental airplane . By being =93up-front=94 with everyone about the condition of my father (h e was in Hospice Care at home when he did this overhaul) it is my goal to b e as above-board as possible. I am selling this engine on Ebay as a =93PART S ENGINE.=94 All bidders will need to understand this is a salvage project for the value of the parts that can be obtained when they disassemble the e ngine. A Bill Of Sale signed by me and the successful bidder will reflect =93PARTS ENGINE.=94 I can tell you that had I NOT become so decrepit myself=2C I would have had no reservation about putting this engine on the Piet project my dad and I were working on. My dad NEVER let me down=2C and my confidence level in th is engine is very high. But that being said=2C I want to emphasize=2C THIS IS A PARTS ENGINE and must be disassembled by whoever purchases it=2C for u se of parts that can be salvaged. This engine was originally in a Pietenpol I bought in November 2003 (the fi rst time my dad was sick with colon cancer). I had previously committed to travel out-of-state with my father to inspect and purchase a Pietenpol=2C b ut my father became ill within a day or so of my trip out of town and he wa sn=92t able to go with me. The guy who was selling a Piet (in 2003) sent me e-mails stating the engine had only 5 hours since major overhaul. I made a quick trip out-of-state to buy the Piet and I brought it home on a trailer . When my dad was finally well enough to leave his house=2C he came out to my farm so we could start the engine. It began leaking oil and gas and ran v ery rough=2C despite having fresh gasoline (I think the ride back to Texas on a trailer was all that was needed to make this engine spring a leak.) I pulled the engine out of the Pietenpol=2C took it to my father=92s house and we disassembled it in his garage (watch the YouTube video.) It was sca ry to see what was inside the engine as we pulled the oil tank off=2C remov ed the cylinders and split the case. The lobes on the camshaft were out of tolerance=2C the crankshaft was so pitted=2C the journals looked like Swiss cheese (see this on YouTube=2C it is pathetic) and the guy who re-built it was so cheap=2C he made many of engine gaskets rather than purchase REAL O EM gaskets. It was also evident old cotter pins were re-used (inside the e ngine) and the builder failed to adequately safety-wire the oil pick-up tub e onto the engine. The tube could have fallen of into the oil sump! (The li st of horrors goes on=85) Long story made short (nearly $7=2C000 later) I sent the engine case off to Divco=2C the accessory case went to Drake=2C I bought a NEW camshaft=2C ha d the cylinders rebuilt (Cerminil) bought a new oil pump-kit=2C new rod bol ts=2C all new gaskets=85 the list of new stuff goes on and on and on. Shortly after the case and parts came back=2C my father had a relapse of co lon cancer and he basically threw in the towel so to speak. He didn=92t wan t to do chemo again=2C but he did want to rebuild the engine=85 This was hi s last priority in life. I think if you will take the time to look at my YouTube video=2C you=92ll a gree=2C this is the one of the BEST looking A-series engines you will have ever seen. I spared no expense in bringing this engine back to life. I even bought new air-intake tubes=2C new pushrod tubes and had them powder coate d in Candy Apple Blue. I powder coated the valve covers in Continental Gold =85 All new rubber=2C all new clamps=2C all new bolts inside and outside th e engine. The Slick Mags appeared relatively new when I bought the Pietenpol=2C They are dual-impulse coupler and they sparked nice and hot. That was the best t hing about this Piet project was the new Slick mags. I am not certain where the wiring harness is=2C but I=92m fairly confident I can find them. When I put the engine on Ebay=2C bidders will have to be pre-approved prior to submitting a bid. NOBODY gets to bid unless they contact me through Eba y and state they understand the =93no warranty=2C no guarantee=2C this is a PARTS engine=94 and they understand it is not being intended for use in an y airplane because it is a PARTS ENGINE. I simply can=92t take on the liab ility and as such=2C I=92ll be taking a price-beating on this engine by not stating it is =93airworthy.=94 For anybody wanting to see my receipts=2C yellow tags=2C release forms=2C C erminil process and ALL THE PARTS I bought=2C I am willing to send you a CD of the receipts and a DVD (as the one YouTube except with better resoluti on) for $20. I can=92t afford to be mailing CDs and DVDs out to every =93ti re-kicker=94 out there and the $20 will be refunded to who ever actually wi ns the bid. $20 gets you the CD of the receipts with some pictures AND the DVD as shown on YouTube. The DVD should have better resolution than the vid eo I uploaded onto YouTube. Simply send me a money order with your mailing address=2C and I am happy to put the discs and info in the mail to you. My mail address is P.O. Box 1991. Abilene=2C Texas 79604. The video on YouTube isn't too bad=2C but the CD and DVD have greater detail and resolution. Please let me make it clear=2C the engine will be sold on Ebay=2C I will no t end the auction early=2C I will not have a buy-it-now price=2C nor an ask ing price. I added up the receipts I could find=2C and the math comes to around $6=2C6 00 (not including the powder coating for valve covers=2C air intake tubes =2C pushrod tubes and other engine parts.) My expense on this engine pushes the $7=2C000 mark easily. In a few weeks=2C I will be getting ready the Piet project (NOT THE JUNK PI LE I FIRST BOUGHT) BUT THE SECOND FINER EXAMPLE OF fuselage=2C wings=2C cen ter section=2C lift struts etc. and offering pictures and a YouTube video o f it in about a month or so. It is a Piet Fuselage with Grega wings. It was originally started by an Air Force Maintenance Office who worked on the B- 1 program. He was also a B-2 Maintenance Officer at a base in MO. when he r etired. It is my understanding he is also an A&P/IA and HE works at Cessna in Wichita=2C Kansas. I felt pretty confident in this guys abilities and th is time=2C I took my father with me for a pre-buy inspection. My dad liked what he saw on this project and I bought it. The original builder had this Aircamper project set up for a Corvair=2C but I elected to go with my Continental A-80. I sold the Corvair parts and mo tormount to a TACO official not too far from me. MORE DETAILS ABOUT THIS WI LL COME IN A FEW WEEKS. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast er_112008 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Nov 14, 2008
From: "Lloyd Smith" <lesmith240(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: spar thickness reduction
Colin, I just did a google search and it returned a link to the matronics list from 2004 that indicated Mr. Will was hesitant to sell the drawings for the built up D-cell wing design to those of us in the US due to liability reasons. I am interested in the possibility of this design as well. That posting also was followed up by a post by Doc Mosher that he had an "epiphany" and came up with something similar. Did that ever come to fruition Doc? On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 8:45 AM, colinc wrote: > > Consider that the fibres at the top and bottom of the spar are working in > tension and compression and their effectiveness/stress is proportional to > the square of their distance from the neutral axis. You will understand that > those forces reduce as you move toward the axis so that wood is less > 'useful' in resisting bending. > > However the wood in the middle does have to work to keep those highly > loaded parts apart and to carry the shear loads in the spar. However it can > be routed away in areas where it does just that job and isn't carrying any > loads into the spar/fittings. > > Narrowing the whole spar will reduce its beam strength proportionate to the > reduction, ie. 25% width reduction = 25% capacity reduction. Not a good > thing to do. > > The best way to make the spar more economically is to go for a top/bottom > spruce members with a ply web. You'll see many pictures of Pietenpols built > that way on the internet. The Jim Will's wing design , the only one approved > in the UK, is built like that but also gains considerable strength from > using a ply D-box leading edge which is integral to the spar design. That > design has also facilitated a max weight of 1200 lbs in the UK. > > Hope that helps? > > Colin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214166#214166 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roy Brooks <n900ml(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: MY CONTINENTAL A-80 AIRCRAFT ENGINE on EBAY & YouTube.
Date: Nov 14, 2008
For some reason=2C my YouTube link doesn't seem to come up=2C so here it is again. Maybe Mattronics has something that eliminates links=2C if so=2C go to YouTube and just type in this (A-80 AIRCRAFT ENGINE.) Sorry.... Here is the link one more try. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =O31jul0OYUI From: n900ml(at)hotmail.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: MY CONTINENTAL A-80 AIRCRAFT ENGINE on EBAY & YouT ube. Date: Fri=2C 14 Nov 2008 12:44:33 -0600 PIETERS=85 I am selling my Continental A-80 engine (as I advised here a month or so ag o) and now seen on YouTube. Just type in =93A-80 Continental Aircraft Engin e.=94 If that doesn=92t work=2C use this direct link =85 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O31jul0OYUI This engine will go on Ebay and I=92ll post a note here to give interested parties a =93heads-up=94 the day it goes up for auction. It will be sold th rough Ebay to the highest bidder. I=92ll probably start the auction at $1. It will be necessary for the winning bidder to pick the engine up at Bruce Field in Ballinger=2C Texas. Here are some details about the history of this engine. This is a long stor y and if you ARE NOT in the market for an engine being sold for PARTS ONLY please save yourself some time and don=92t bother reading this. I made this video for YouTube in order to show some of the =93highlights=94 about the overhaul on this engine done by my father in 2005. My father was an A&P Mechanic and had 5 type ratings in jets when he retire d. He overhauled my Continental A-80 engine and passed away soon after sign ing the engine logbook. It is bittersweet having to sell this engine=2C be cause his signature in the logbook is the last thing he ever signed before he passed away in 2005. My dad learned he had a relapse of colon cancer and at age 85=2C and he sim ply decided NOT to undergo chemotherapy a second-time after seeing my mom g o though cancer treatment with chemo and radiation not working for her=2C j ust a year earlier. Getting my dad to overhaul the engine helped to keep h im occupied when that he was living alone as a widower and I simply did not have the savvy to attempt this myself. My dad was tough as nails and the last thing he wanted to accomplish in lif e was to overhaul my Continental A-80 engine. When he was 78=2C he overhaul ed my Lycoming 0-320 E2A engine. In my youth=2C he overhauled my 1963 Ford van engine=2C my 1965 Mustang engine and transmission=2C half a dozen motor cycle engines=2C he built boats=2C campers=2C travel trailers. When he was younger=2C he rebuilt and flew several old Army Air Corp trainers. He was a n instructor pilot during WW2 in the Army Air Corp. The man was a gifted m echanic and I was the =93artist=94. He built stuff=2C I made them look nice . It was a great partnership for 54 years. When he was 82=2C he bought a Vo lkswagen Westfalia and we pulled the engine from that (see this on YouTube =2C =93Rebuilding my dad=92s Westfalia). I can=92t even remember how many VW based dune buggies my dad and I built=2C but it was ALWAYS a common sigh t to see split engine cases and air cooled engines in our garage when I was young. I am not in the position to warranty this engine or guarantee the sufficien cy of this engine for use in either a certificated or experimental airplane . By being =93up-front=94 with everyone about the condition of my father (h e was in Hospice Care at home when he did this overhaul) it is my goal to b e as above-board as possible. I am selling this engine on Ebay as a =93PART S ENGINE.=94 All bidders will need to understand this is a salvage project for the value of the parts that can be obtained when they disassemble the e ngine. A Bill Of Sale signed by me and the successful bidder will reflect =93PARTS ENGINE.=94 I can tell you that had I NOT become so decrepit myself=2C I would have had no reservation about putting this engine on the Piet project my dad and I were working on. My dad NEVER let me down=2C and my confidence level in th is engine is very high. But that being said=2C I want to emphasize=2C THIS IS A PARTS ENGINE and must be disassembled by whoever purchases it=2C for u se of parts that can be salvaged. This engine was originally in a Pietenpol I bought in November 2003 (the fi rst time my dad was sick with colon cancer). I had previously committed to travel out-of-state with my father to inspect and purchase a Pietenpol=2C b ut my father became ill within a day or so of my trip out of town and he wa sn=92t able to go with me. The guy who was selling a Piet (in 2003) sent me e-mails stating the engine had only 5 hours since major overhaul. I made a quick trip out-of-state to buy the Piet and I brought it home on a trailer . When my dad was finally well enough to leave his house=2C he came out to my farm so we could start the engine. It began leaking oil and gas and ran v ery rough=2C despite having fresh gasoline (I think the ride back to Texas on a trailer was all that was needed to make this engine spring a leak.) I pulled the engine out of the Pietenpol=2C took it to my father=92s house and we disassembled it in his garage (watch the YouTube video.) It was sca ry to see what was inside the engine as we pulled the oil tank off=2C remov ed the cylinders and split the case. The lobes on the camshaft were out of tolerance=2C the crankshaft was so pitted=2C the journals looked like Swiss cheese (see this on YouTube=2C it is pathetic) and the guy who re-built it was so cheap=2C he made many of engine gaskets rather than purchase REAL O EM gaskets. It was also evident old cotter pins were re-used (inside the e ngine) and the builder failed to adequately safety-wire the oil pick-up tub e onto the engine. The tube could have fallen of into the oil sump! (The li st of horrors goes on=85) Long story made short (nearly $7=2C000 later) I sent the engine case off to Divco=2C the accessory case went to Drake=2C I bought a NEW camshaft=2C ha d the cylinders rebuilt (Cerminil) bought a new oil pump-kit=2C new rod bol ts=2C all new gaskets=85 the list of new stuff goes on and on and on. Shortly after the case and parts came back=2C my father had a relapse of co lon cancer and he basically threw in the towel so to speak. He didn=92t wan t to do chemo again=2C but he did want to rebuild the engine=85 This was hi s last priority in life. I think if you will take the time to look at my YouTube video=2C you=92ll a gree=2C this is the one of the BEST looking A-series engines you will have ever seen. I spared no expense in bringing this engine back to life. I even bought new air-intake tubes=2C new pushrod tubes and had them powder coate d in Candy Apple Blue. I powder coated the valve covers in Continental Gold =85 All new rubber=2C all new clamps=2C all new bolts inside and outside th e engine. The Slick Mags appeared relatively new when I bought the Pietenpol=2C They are dual-impulse coupler and they sparked nice and hot. That was the best t hing about this Piet project was the new Slick mags. I am not certain where the wiring harness is=2C but I=92m fairly confident I can find them. When I put the engine on Ebay=2C bidders will have to be pre-approved prior to submitting a bid. NOBODY gets to bid unless they contact me through Eba y and state they understand the =93no warranty=2C no guarantee=2C this is a PARTS engine=94 and they understand it is not being intended for use in an y airplane because it is a PARTS ENGINE. I simply can=92t take on the liab ility and as such=2C I=92ll be taking a price-beating on this engine by not stating it is =93airworthy.=94 For anybody wanting to see my receipts=2C yellow tags=2C release forms=2C C erminil process and ALL THE PARTS I bought=2C I am willing to send you a CD of the receipts and a DVD (as the one YouTube except with better resoluti on) for $20. I can=92t afford to be mailing CDs and DVDs out to every =93ti re-kicker=94 out there and the $20 will be refunded to who ever actually wi ns the bid. $20 gets you the CD of the receipts with some pictures AND the DVD as shown on YouTube. The DVD should have better resolution than the vid eo I uploaded onto YouTube. Simply send me a money order with your mailing address=2C and I am happy to put the discs and info in the mail to you. My mail address is P.O. Box 1991. Abilene=2C Texas 79604. The video on YouTube isn't too bad=2C but the CD and DVD have greater detail and resolution. Please let me make it clear=2C the engine will be sold on Ebay=2C I will no t end the auction early=2C I will not have a buy-it-now price=2C nor an ask ing price. I added up the receipts I could find=2C and the math comes to around $6=2C6 00 (not including the powder coating for valve covers=2C air intake tubes =2C pushrod tubes and other engine parts.) My expense on this engine pushes the $7=2C000 mark easily. In a few weeks=2C I will be getting ready the Piet project (NOT THE JUNK PI LE I FIRST BOUGHT) BUT THE SECOND FINER EXAMPLE OF fuselage=2C wings=2C cen ter section=2C lift struts etc. and offering pictures and a YouTube video o f it in about a month or so. It is a Piet Fuselage with Grega wings. It was originally started by an Air Force Maintenance Office who worked on the B- 1 program. He was also a B-2 Maintenance Officer at a base in MO. when he r etired. It is my understanding he is also an A&P/IA and HE works at Cessna in Wichita=2C Kansas. I felt pretty confident in this guys abilities and th is time=2C I took my father with me for a pre-buy inspection. My dad liked what he saw on this project and I bought it. The original builder had this Aircamper project set up for a Corvair=2C but I elected to go with my Continental A-80. I sold the Corvair parts and mo tormount to a TACO official not too far from me. MORE DETAILS ABOUT THIS WI LL COME IN A FEW WEEKS. Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. Sign up today. _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows Live ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: spar thickness reduction
Date: Nov 14, 2008
Gene,

November 03, 2008 - November 14, 2008

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-hc