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February 11, 2009 - March 01, 2009

Additionally for every landing and takeoff both hands should never leave th e throttle and stick. A deer crossing the runway on landing---a go around is needed immediately. A guy taxies out in front of you...any number of things like you want to abort a takeoff. I guess it is all what you're used to in braking. For me I installed heel brakes like I was taught to use in my first taildragger--an Aeronca Champ. Anyone who has Cub or Champ time feels comfortable with heel brake s. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Bill is correct in that you should keep a hand on the stick whilst taxiing, although up elevator is not always the proper positioning. Stick back/ailerons neutral for direct headwinds, stick forward/ailerons neutral for direct tailwinds; when it comes to quartering winds, "turn into headwinds, turn away from tailwinds", with the elevator in the appropriate position. Your hand should remain on the throttle as much as practical whilst taxiing, both from a safety standpoint and because you will need to be adjusting your power to maintain a safe, controlled taxi speed. Ryan On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:31 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > That is cool Don. I have been thinking about hand brakes, but was stuck on > the independent braking idea. I guess two handles...once on the ground a > hand on each brake and my two feet should be all I need. (throttle from time > to time.) I would be interested in how yours is set up. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
There is a possibility that my next duty assignment will be in Austin, Texas. I really like where I have my plane in San Antonio (At 8T8, San Geronimo airpark). I have a private hanger with electricity. It is "only" about 2 hours from Austin. So for a while I could leave my plane there. We have lived in the Austin area (Round Rock and I worked in Austin) before and know that we may have to live in a suburb or outlying community in able to find an affordable house. Can anyone tell me about potential hangers/airports in the Austin Area? And if there might be any open hangers. That will influence where we start our housing search. Blue Skies, Steve Dortch Straight 35 Bonanza 8T8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Subject: Sorry new subject OT Austin area airports/hangers
Sorry this should be the new header. Received: from [10.240.32.176] (Forwarded-For: 66.69.38.107, [10.240.32.176]) by mail24.int.ps1.us.army.mil (mshttpd); Wed, 11 Feb From: <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:48:35 -0600 2008; 32bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a possibility that my next duty assignment will be in Austin, Texas. I really like where I have my plane in San Antonio (At 8T8, San Geronimo airpark). I have a private hanger with electricity. It is "only" about 2 hours from Austin. So for a while I could leave my plane there. We have lived in the Austin area (Round Rock and I worked in Austin) before and know that we may have to live in a suburb or outlying community in able to find an affordable house. Can anyone tell me about potential hangers/airports in the Austin Area? And if there might be any open hangers. That will influence where we start our housing search. Blue Skies, Steve Dortch Straight 35 Bonanza 8T8

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From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Good clarifications, Ryan. Thanks for making that more clear. In any case it seems pretty clear that the pilot needs to keep both hands occupied with things other than brakes, whether in the air or on the ground. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals Bill is correct in that you should keep a hand on the stick whilst taxiing, although up elevator is not always the proper positioning. Stick back/ailerons neutral for direct headwinds, stick forward/ailerons neutral for direct tailwinds; when it comes to quartering winds, "turn into headwinds, turn away from tailwinds", with the elevator in the appropriate position. Your hand should remain on the throttle as much as practical whilst taxiing, both from a safety standpoint and because you will need to be adjusting your power to maintain a safe, controlled taxi speed. Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Good point Bill. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 8:52 AM Michael, - Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick , since you should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so t he two-handle idea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun). - There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounte d differential hand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed , and if it did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be applied th rough a motorcycle-type lever, and moving the stick side-to-side would appl y more braking power to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea - ju st don't know if it really worked. It may require more squeezing power than the average hand can provide. - Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:32 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals That is cool Don. I have been thinking about hand brakes, but was stuck on the independent braking idea. I guess two handles...once on the ground a ha nd on each brake and my two feet should be all I need. (throttle from time to time.) I would be interested in how yours is set up. - - ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: brakes
That is what I was referring to but not made clear in my post. I was not pl anning on the brakes other then for holding the plane once stopped or to ai d in maneuvering on the ground. But as Bill pointed out some back pressure is required...if nothing else to keep the elevator from smacking around. I would prefer heel/toe brakes, but was intrigued with the hand brake idea. - Not quite there yet, still need to build left wing, fuse., landing gear , tail, engine mount.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Agreed. - --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 10:06 AM Good clarifications, Ryan. Thanks for making that more clear. In any case it seems pretty clear that the pilot needs to keep both hands -occupied with things other than brakes, whether in the air or on the gro und. - Bill C. - ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Subject: Gary & Shad's motor mount
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Shad (or whomever may know), Did you guys go with the motor mount per the Pietenpol plans for your Corvair? I didn't think to make a note of that at Brodhead, and I can't tell definitively in any of my pics. Thanks, Ryan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Scott Knowlton <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: brakes
Date: Feb 11, 2009
I think we all tend to over emphasise the amount of breaking we think we ne ed in a small aircraft. The only time you would miss having brakes would b e when you are trying to manoeuvre in a small area or holding the aircraft from creeping during a run-up. A firm application of one wheel brake on a slow taxi along with rudder in the same direction will "unlock" a steerable tailwheel into the castoring mode and allow the aircraft to be turned on a very small radius (looks cool when you arrive at a fly-in breakfast). A s mall tap of a break hear and there on a strong crosswind take-off and landi ng for directional control is the other time that differential brakes come in handy but that is a function that comes with skill and experience and is more often the cause of a runway excursion if not properly executed. I do ubt most of us will be flying our Pietenpols on a day where tapping of brak es on take off or landing is needed so the requirement probably doesn't exi st. Incidentally=2C the elevator is held in the aft position to keep a pos itive force between the tailwheel and the ground or tarmack enabling steeri ng to be the most effective. OK no more two cents from me... Scott Knowlton Date: Wed=2C 11 Feb 2009 07:28:55 -0800From: speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.netSubjec t: Re: Pietenpol-List: brakesTo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com That is what I was referring to but not made clear in my post. I was not pl anning on the brakes other then for holding the plane once stopped or to ai d in maneuvering on the ground. But as Bill pointed out some back pressure is required...if nothing else to keep the elevator from smacking around. I would prefer heel/toe brakes=2C but was intrigued with the hand brake idea. Not quite there yet=2C still need to build left wing=2C fuse.=2C landing gear=2C tail=2C engine mount.... 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D _________________________________________________________________ The new Windows Live Messenger. You don=92t want to miss this. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com>
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Date: Feb 11, 2009
I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite a few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've been in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of the cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were many Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with a Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw Heath (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out to grab or rub the wheels for friction. I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a taildragger, especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your nose. They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube brakes on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is all I figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred feet, even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I was passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like being able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with hand on throttle and stick. Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours dual in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun. "I knew she wasn't worth top billing." -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com On Feb 11, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Phillips, Jack wrote: > Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big > spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? It > takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. I=92ve got 8=94 > Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21=94 wheels. The > brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but won=92t quite hold it > still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after > touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the > airplane. I don=92t know that you would find much difference between > mechanical or hydraulic brakes. I=92ve flown Mike Cuy=92s Pietenpol, > and he has 19=94 wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the same > effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for taxiing > and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, but > nothing like you get with small wheels. > > Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you can > find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. I=92ll bet those > discs are 12=94 in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power on > a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less) > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:58 AM > To: Pietenpol List > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals > > Is my reasoning going soft, or will different types of brakes > work differently with spoked motorcycle-style wheels as > opposed to smaller wheels and tires? It would seem like a > mechanical drum brake would work well with motorcycle > style wheels. > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > _________________________________________________ > > This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain > privileged, proprietary > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, > please notify the sender > immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by > you is prohibited. > > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - > Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 11, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Not sure where this thread got started, but I can't take credit for it. It is good stuff! I try to learn all I can on here so that I can build a nice plane. I want brakes, so this info. is all good. - I am sure Mike C. will allow me into the rear cockpit of his plane to pract ice taxing and the use of his brake set up. (I also think he will gladly pa y for the damage I cause as I end up through the nearest hangar...)- From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 10:53 AM I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about wheel si ze. About this time in aviation history, there were quite a few different m ethods of actuating brakes before there was a standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've been in a WACO where the brakes where ac tuated with the throttle lever. When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of the cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There wer e many Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with a Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw Heath (I think) wher e the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out to grab or rub the whe els for friction. I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a taildragger, espe cially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your nose. They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the way, for the most p art, but easy to use. I have expander tube brakes on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is all I figure I need them for. With v ortex generators my landing speed is supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on m y own in a couple hundred feet, even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I was passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last y ear. I like being able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the grou nd with hand on throttle and stick. Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours dual in a C ub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun. "I knew she wasn't worth top billing." -john- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals OT Nonstandardization pre WWII
Along with nonstandardization of brakes were several things we take for granted. IE Push with your right foot to go right, Push with the left to go left. Some planes were rigged like a Bicycle, push with your right to go left (steer left to go left) Etc Push throttle to go fast Vs Pull throttle to go fast ( Pre WWII French I think) Wing warping and using your hips to steer (Wright Brothers) I sure like some standardization Blue Skies Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:02 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals > I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about > > wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite > a > few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a > standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've > been > in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. > > When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you > actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of > the > cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were > many > Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with > a > Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to > > pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw > Heath > (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out > to > grab or rub the wheels for friction. > > I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a > taildragger, > especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your > nose. > They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the > > way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube > brakes > on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is > all I > figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is > > supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred > feet, > even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I > was > passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like > being > able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with > hand > on throttle and stick. > > Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours > dual > in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun. > > "I knew she wasn't worth top billing." > > -john- > > John Hofmann > Vice-President, Information Technology > The Rees Group, Inc. > 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 > Madison, WI 53718 > Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 > Fax: 608.443.2474 > Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com > > On Feb 11, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Phillips, Jack wrote: > > > Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big > > spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? > It > > takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. Ive got 8 > > Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21 wheels. > The > > brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but wont quite > hold it > > still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after > > touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the > > airplane. I dont know that you would find much difference > between > > mechanical or hydraulic brakes. Ive flown Mike Cuys > Pietenpol, > > and he has 19 wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the > same > > effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for > taxiing > > and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, > but > > nothing like you get with small wheels. > > > > Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you > can > > find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. Ill bet those > > > discs are 12 in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power > on > > a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less) > > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > > ] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:58 AM > > To: Pietenpol List > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals > > > > Is my reasoning going soft, or will different types of brakes > > work differently with spoked motorcycle-style wheels as > > opposed to smaller wheels and tires? It would seem like a > > mechanical drum brake would work well with motorcycle > > style wheels. > > > > Oscar Zuniga > > Air Camper NX41CC > > San Antonio, TX > > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > http://forums.matronics.com > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > _________________________________________________ > > > > This message is for the designated recipient only and may > contain > > privileged, proprietary > > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in > error, > > please notify the sender > > immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email > by > > you is prohibited. > > > > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - > > Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Hand Brake Pictures
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 11, 2009
This is how I mounted my motorcycle hand brakes up under the rear panel. In a sharp taxi turn I can grab one of them to help swing the tail. In a run up I can grab the left one with my middle finger and the right one with my thumb of my right hand while my left hand does the throttle. I rarely use them for anything other than that and taxiing around stuff on pavement because the tall high pressure wheels do tend to roll. I have never used them for landing. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229916#229916 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0865_213.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 11, 2009
Here is a shot of the drum brakes... Don E. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=229918#229918 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn0864_438.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike" <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Heel brake pedals OT Nonstandardization pre WWII
Date: Feb 11, 2009
When I push with either foot on my bicycle, it goes forward. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals OT Nonstandardization pre WWII --> Along with nonstandardization of brakes were several things we take for granted. IE Push with your right foot to go right, Push with the left to go left. Some planes were rigged like a Bicycle, push with your right to go left (steer left to go left) Etc Push throttle to go fast Vs Pull throttle to go fast ( Pre WWII French I think) Wing warping and using your hips to steer (Wright Brothers) I sure like some standardization Blue Skies Steve D [snip] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
Ryan, I believe Dad made his somewhere in between a William Wynne tray type and the Piet plans.- He had to weld up 2 of them because the 1st one had a diagonal interfering with the intake we used.- If you are over 200 lbs , I would recomend doing some math after the rest of your airplane is finni shed, painted, and all ready to go minus the engine, then figure out how lo ng to make the mount.- This will save you from needing any ballast.- I am 30-40 lbs lighter than dad, and it is set up for him,- I need a little (15-20 lbs) of ballast in the rear cockpit to go streight and level, hands off.- Our wing is also slanted back (4 inches I believe) to keep it in C /G limits. - Hope this helps, Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Hand Brake Pictures
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Don=3B looks like you cut your aileron cables a bit short=2C eh? Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Heel brake pedals
Date: Feb 12, 2009
The wheels and brakes on 41CC are 6.00x6s off an older Cessna 172 (I believe)=2C so I have pretty much all the stopping power I'll ever need =2C with only gentle to moderate toe pedal pressure. I like them very much but I learned to fly in a Cub with expander tube heel brakes and was taught not to depend on brakes for much so I don't. Side note to Steve Dortch: I learned to fly=2C and flew my first solo=2C ou t of Tims Airpark north of Austin. The airplane rented=2C wet=2C for $8/hr. Back then=2C it was a sleepy little place with no traffic and a long way from downtown. We'd fly over to Bird's Nest for some grass practice=2C I think it was. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Subject: Re: RE: OT Nonstandardization pre WWII Now Green planes
I would figure that you bike nuts would have us all flying pedal powered non polluting Pietenpols by now. Pedal powered flight actually began in 1935. I know this for a fact because it is in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_aircraft What is taking y'all so long. Of course I am realistic, I know that both occupants would have to pedal, at least until you reduce power for cruse. I know about the Electriflyer and the other electric planes and I have read about alternative fuels (LPG, hydrogen, solar and nuclear.) They seem to be somewhat marginal. Does anyone on the list have any feel for the future of aircraft electric engines for the next few years? Everyone seeks light weight, but how quickly could an electric engine be reasonably put on a Piet? The origional Ford A engine made 40 HP and was a boat anchor in weight. So 40HP seems to be a minimum. What range is needed for a around the air patch flying? Most Piet flights are under an hour. Of course you need a 30 min safety reserve. Remember you have the weight taken out for the engine, accessories, fuel system and fuel. What is the total weight of these systems that could be used for engine/batteries? If you don't take people flying, the front passenger hole is covered that area/weight (180LBs) could also be added to the total weight of an electric system. At my airport is a guy who builds electric cars. He even converts regular cars to total electric. He has a Porshe 911 and a Jeep converted. Granted they are only for around town (20-30 Mile range) but they are drivable and work. He has built a really sporty trike with 2 front wheels, it is pretty quick and has better range. All for about 1/5 the cost per mile of gas powered engines for electricity. He has a kit built LSA (4stroke Rotax powered). I will ask him this question if I see him. Blue (or should I say Green) Skies Steve D PS I am not a hippie who is ready to wear hemp clothes and eat tofu. I just think that we will be moving away from fossil fuels and wonder how soon it will be practical. In other words, I am willing to go electric, but don't think you can replace my 14 MPG 89 Suburban (I actually own two Suburbans, and two 30+MPG Toyota cars.) with an electric Yugo. Give me a reasonable option. ----- Original Message ----- From: mike <bike.mike(at)comcast.net> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 23:58 Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals OT Nonstandardization pre WWII > > When I push with either foot on my bicycle, it goes forward. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dortch, > Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:38 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals OT Nonstandardization pre > WWII > > --> < > > Along with nonstandardization of brakes were several things we take for > granted. IE > > Push with your right foot to go right, Push with the left to go left. Some > planes were rigged like a Bicycle, push with your right to go left (steer > left to go left) Etc > > Push throttle to go fast Vs Pull throttle to go fast ( Pre WWII French I > think) > > Wing warping and using your hips to steer (Wright Brothers) > > I sure like some standardization > > Blue Skies > Steve D > > [snip] > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Just a note. One popular modification on Stearmans was to replace the effective brakes with brakes from a Willys jeep. You could lock the origional brakes and put the plane on it's nose ruining a prop and engine. The jeep brakes were much less effective and as a result reduced the chance to put the plane on it's nose. Anyone who had had an older jeep will testify to the poor brakes. Oscar, I have 4 months before I have to move. If I throw your name around Austin will that help or hurt my efforts to find a hanger/airport home? For the forseeable future I will stay at 8T8. I have a great hanger and it is about 2 hours drive from Austin. That gives me the ability to find a good hanger/airport. Having the A/C and heated office to sleep in helps. Blue Skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:15 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals > > The wheels and brakes on 41CC are 6.00x6s off an older Cessna 172 > > (I believe), so I have pretty much all the stopping power I'll > ever need, > > with only gentle to moderate toe pedal pressure. I like them very > much > but I learned to fly in a Cub with expander tube heel brakes and was > > taught not to depend on brakes for much so I don't. > > > > Side note to Steve Dortch: I learned to fly, and flew my first > solo, out > > of Tims Airpark north of Austin. The airplane rented, wet, for $8/hr. > > Back then, it was a sleepy little place with no traffic and a long way > > from downtown. We'd fly over to Bird's Nest for some grass practice, > > I think it was. > > > > Oscar Zuniga > > Air Camper NX41CC > > San Antonio, TX > > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: OT Austin area airports/hangers
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Steve=3B If you throw my name around the Austin area and include fifty cents=2C you'll be able to buy a cup of coffee. Cream and sugar will be extra thoug h. My name is pretty much meaningless in Austin=2C and only marginally better anywhere else=2C including around my house =3Bo) However=2C there is a guy name of Eric Overton in Austin=2C who is building a WWI biplane replica with Corvair power and he might be of some help to you. contact(at)overtonphoto.com Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Good eye Oscar! No, It's a really long story but I had a hangar collapse on the plane so I had to pull the wings off and take it home and do some rebuilding. When I did that, in order to pull the cables through the center section they couldn't have the turnbuckle ends on them so I cut the cables. When it came time to put the wings back on the simple answer was to just thread them back through the center section and add a little length to the cable from where I cut them. Someday I'll make new cables but since I love to talk Pietenpols it's kinda fun to leave it that way so people ask about it and strike up some Piet conversation! Come to think of it, Oscar you know a little about rebuilding these things too! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230020#230020 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Heel brake pedals
Date: Feb 12, 2009
I am running Harley wheels and brakes on both Piet's. The new one has Harley calipers also. I can hold brakes to full run up power. I have a single brake grip on the stick. I just have to remember not to apply brakes to hard at fast taxi. I'm afraid it might give me a nose over. I fully agree with Mike's post, lots of caution to stay out of those dangerous situations Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:11 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? It takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. I've got 8" Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21" wheels. The brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but won't quite hold it still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the airplane. I don't know that you would find much difference between mechanical or hydraulic brakes. I've flown Mike Cuy's Pietenpol, and he has 19" wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the same effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for taxiing and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, but nothing like you get with small wheels. Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you can find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. I'll bet those discs are 12" in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power on a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less) Jack Phillips NX899JP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:58 AM To: Pietenpol List Subject: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals Is my reasoning going soft, or will different types of brakes work differently with spoked motorcycle-style wheels as opposed to smaller wheels and tires? It would seem like a mechanical drum brake would work well with motorcycle style wheels. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Pieters=3B I have conducted a test to determine the relative weights of conventional Poly-Fiber finishes as compared with latex house paint. The complete test methodology=2C data=2C photos=2C and conclusions are posted on my website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/paint/paint.html but here are the highlights: 1. Finishing an Air Camper through silver will add about 17 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric. 2. Finishing an Air Camper through color coats with Poly-Tone will add about 27 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric. 3. Finishing an Air Camper using latex house paint to the thickness recommended on the paint can will add about 15 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric ***BUT*** if you apply it to the thickness that I recommend for proper UV protection=2C it will be about the same weight as Poly-Fiber finishes through color coat. I was quite surprised at how soft and pliable the latex-painted fabric ended up compared with the Poly-Fiber finishes=2C and if you like your fabric to be nice and drum-tight=2C you won't get it with latex. However=2C it should be just as strong and have just as long a life (the underlying fabric is exactly the same)... at lower cost and with little or no fumes or cleanup mess. Let the flaming begin. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
From: "jimd" <jlducey(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Hi Oscar, Don't have anything to flame you about, I also am using Valspar latex. It complements Stewart Systems EkoBond fabric cement very well. You have to kind of push the latex through the fabric though to be sure and get it really bonded. Stewart Systems uses a latex based stuff they call EkoFill (as a base for their waterborne polyurethane), which has something like carbon black in it to block UV. However the Valspar works well, and most the Latex paints have had far more testing than any other type of paint, as there is such a huge market for house paint. My project came with a few gallons of each of the Stits Polyfiber paint supplies, but I didn't have the wings ready to use them and they have about a two year expiration date on them and some of mine were twice that when I got them and old enough now not to trust them at all. The fabric cement is not that expensive (about $130 a gallon, think one will do my biplane wings). Had fabric already and other supplies, but when I ran the numbers for getting new Stits materials, or new Stewart Systems or doing a mix of it with Latex it came out about $2500 for Stits, about $1800-2000 for Stewart Systems, or I could use EkoBond and Latex for about $400. The suprising thing to me about it the costs was that so much of it was for the pinked fabric tape, that stuff is expensive and you need it in a number of sizes. Anyway, keep at it, I will be doing some experimenting well before I put most the paint on my plane. I have been finishing it through primer and then moving on so far. Can't leave it with the Ekobond and fabric as it is just tacky enough to gather dust from everywhere, but the primer doesn't attract dust very much. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230052#230052 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Subject: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I am going to do the same, Stuart fabric cement and latex paint. May even try painting my aluminum cowling and turtle deck parts with the stuff (the guy at Sherwin Williams said it should work). Rick On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 9:14 PM, jimd wrote: > > Hi Oscar, > > Don't have anything to flame you about, I also am using Valspar latex. It > complements Stewart Systems EkoBond fabric cement very well. You have to > kind of push the latex through the fabric though to be sure and get it > really bonded. > > Stewart Systems uses a latex based stuff they call EkoFill (as a base for > their waterborne polyurethane), which has something like carbon black in it > to block UV. However the Valspar works well, and most the Latex paints have > had far more testing than any other type of paint, as there is such a huge > market for house paint. > > My project came with a few gallons of each of the Stits Polyfiber paint > supplies, but I didn't have the wings ready to use them and they have about > a two year expiration date on them and some of mine were twice that when I > got them and old enough now not to trust them at all. > > The fabric cement is not that expensive (about $130 a gallon, think one > will do my biplane wings). Had fabric already and other supplies, but when I > ran the numbers for getting new Stits materials, or new Stewart Systems or > doing a mix of it with Latex it came out about $2500 for Stits, about > $1800-2000 for Stewart Systems, or I could use EkoBond and Latex for about > $400. The suprising thing to me about it the costs was that so much of it > was for the pinked fabric tape, that stuff is expensive and you need it in a > number of sizes. > > Anyway, keep at it, I will be doing some experimenting well before I put > most the paint on my plane. I have been finishing it through primer and then > moving on so far. Can't leave it with the Ekobond and fabric as it is just > tacky enough to gather dust from everywhere, but the primer doesn't attract > dust very much. > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230052#230052 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 12, 2009
Subject: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Nice work Oscar. I wanted to do this exact comparison test but was always too cheap to buy all five or six of the polyfiber components just to cover a two square foot test frame. Your results came out about where I would have guessed. Rick On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > Pieters; > > I have conducted a test to determine the relative weights > of conventional Poly-Fiber finishes as compared with latex > house paint. The complete test methodology, data, photos, > and conclusions are posted on my website at > http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/paint/paint.html > but here are the highlights: > > 1. Finishing an Air Camper through silver will add about > 17 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric. > > 2. Finishing an Air Camper through color coats with Poly-Tone > will add about 27 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric. > > 3. Finishing an Air Camper using latex house paint to the > thickness recommended on the paint can will add about 15 lbs. > to the airplane as compared to bare fabric ***BUT*** if you > apply it to the thickness that I recommend for proper UV > protection, it will be about the same weight as Poly-Fiber > finishes through color coat. > > I was quite surprised at how soft and pliable the latex-painted > fabric ended up compared with the Poly-Fiber finishes, and if > you like your fabric to be nice and drum-tight, you won't get it > with latex. However, it should be just as strong and have just > as long a life (the underlying fabric is exactly the same)... at > lower cost and with little or no fumes or cleanup mess. > > Let the flaming begin. > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: pinked tapes
Date: Feb 13, 2009
JimD wrote- >The suprising thing to me about the costs was that so much of it >was for the pinked fabric tape=2C that stuff is expensive and you >need it in a number of sizes. You don't need to use precut pinked tapes anywhere but on the compound curves (so to speak)- the wingtips=2C tips of vertical and horizontal surfaces=2C etc. where it has to go around a curve and you need that bias cut. For straight surfaces or single curvature edges (leading edges=2C for example)=2C you can cut your own pinked strips from whole goods. All it costs is your labor to cut the strips and of course you need to make nice straight line cuts. Don't tell me I didn't learn anything from "The Fisherman" =3Bo) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike" <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>
Subject: pinked tapes
Date: Feb 13, 2009
"Pinked" fabric tape is a strip of fabric whose edges are cut in a zig-zag. Typically, pinked tape has its woven threads running on the diagonal or bias and the pinked edges keep the tape from unraveling. It is the diagonal threads that adapt to compound curves and sharp corners. Pinked tape is used in composite layups for the same reason. When I recovered my Champ (screwed ribs, not stitched), I made my own pinked tape (miles of the stuff...every rib) from whole cloth as Oscar suggests. It didn't take long and pinking shears are available at any Wal-Mart or other fine store. Mike Hardaway _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 5:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: pinked tapes JimD wrote- >The suprising thing to me about the costs was that so much of it >was for the pinked fabric tape, that stuff is expensive and you >need it in a number of sizes. You don't need to use precut pinked tapes anywhere but on the compound curves (so to speak)- the wingtips, tips of vertical and horizontal surfaces, etc. where it has to go around a curve and you need that bias cut. For straight surfaces or single curvature edges (leading edges, for example), you can cut your own pinked strips from whole goods. All it costs is your labor to cut the strips and of course you need to make nice straight line cuts. Don't tell me I didn't learn anything from "The Fisherman" ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 13, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: pinked tapes
A real plus is that a pinked edge also makes it stealthier and a stealthy P iet is what you need when your flying in below the radar!;-0=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________=0AFrom: mike <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:25:46 AM =0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: pinked tapes=0A=0A=0A"Pinked" fabric tape i s a strip of fabric whose edges are cut in a zig-zag.- =0ATypically, pink ed tape has its woven threads running on the diagonal or bias-and the pin ked edges keep the tape from unraveling.- It is the diagonal threads that adapt to compound curves and sharp corners.- Pinked tape is used in comp osite layups for the same reason.=0A-=0AWhen I recovered my Champ (screwe d ribs, not stitched), I made my own pinked tape (miles of the stuff...ever y rib) from whole cloth as Oscar suggests.- It didn't take long and pinki ng shears are available at any Wal-Mart or other fine store.=0A=0AMike Hard away=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-pietenpol-list- server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga=0ASent: Friday, February 13, 2009 5:33 AM=0ATo: Piet enpol List=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: pinked tapes=0A=0AJimD wrote-=0A- =0A>The suprising thing to me about the costs was that so much of it=0A>was for the pinked fabric tape, that stuff is expensive and you=0A>need it in a number of sizes.=0A-=0AYou don't need to use precut pinked tapes anywhe re but on the =0Acompound curves (so to speak)- the wingtips, tips of verti cal and =0Ahorizontal surfaces, etc. where it has to go around a curve and =0Ayou need that bias cut.- For=0Astraight surfaces or single curvature e dges (leading edges, for=0Aexample), you can cut your own pinked strips fro m whole goods.=0AAll it costs is your labor to cut the strips and of course you need=0Ato make nice straight line cuts.=0A-=0ADon't tell me I didn't learn anything from "The Fisherman" ;o)=0A-=0AOscar Zuniga=0AAir Camper NX41CC=0ASan Antonio, TX=0Amailto: taildrags@hotmail.com=0Awebsite at http: //www.flysquirrel.net=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref=" http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=0A=0A=0A -======================== ================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Date: Feb 13, 2009
Another great job, Oscar. Thanks Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Oscar Zuniga To: Pietenpol List Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex Pieters; I have conducted a test to determine the relative weights of conventional Poly-Fiber finishes as compared with latex house paint. The complete test methodology, data, photos, and conclusions are posted on my website at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/paint/paint.html but here are the highlights: 1. Finishing an Air Camper through silver will add about 17 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric. 2. Finishing an Air Camper through color coats with Poly-Tone will add about 27 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric. 3. Finishing an Air Camper using latex house paint to the thickness recommended on the paint can will add about 15 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric ***BUT*** if you apply it to the thickness that I recommend for proper UV protection, it will be about the same weight as Poly-Fiber finishes through color coat. I was quite surprised at how soft and pliable the latex-painted fabric ended up compared with the Poly-Fiber finishes, and if you like your fabric to be nice and drum-tight, you won't get it with latex. However, it should be just as strong and have just as long a life (the underlying fabric is exactly the same)... at lower cost and with little or no fumes or cleanup mess. Let the flaming begin. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: pinked tapes
Date: Feb 14, 2009
It is not correct that pinked tape is "typically" biased tape. Virtually all tape is pinked. The pinking keeps the edge from fraying. In the very early times, such as WWI, tapes were often just frayed on purpose for a few threads to keep them from unravelling further. Straight edged tapes are the exception, mostly when synthetics came about, and only because they were cheaper. Biased tape is a whole different thing. Biased tape can make curves as stated. Again, usually pinked but I suppose there may be straight edged bias tape as well. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2009
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I went with the mount described in William Wynnes manual, he dedicates around six pages one just building the mount. Rick On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > Shad (or whomever may know), > > Did you guys go with the motor mount per the Pietenpol plans for your > Corvair? I didn't think to make a note of that at Brodhead, and I can't tell > definitively in any of my pics. Thanks, > > Ryan > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 14, 2009
Subject: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex ?
Forgive the intrusion good people, (fans of TGWP will recognize that line) but if I might interject a personal opinion about latex finishes: they look like crap. Please allow me to further express my sentiments that I am a staunch suppor ter of those who use latex paint or any other method to finish the fabric on their airplane or many simple reasons----if you took the time to saw up wood, make metal fittings from raw sheet and tube 4130 material, learned how to weld and rib stitch, if you have burned your fingers on recently-ground fittings, if you've had T-88 in places where you didn't even know you had p laces, if you've coughed all night long from inhaling wood dust particles from sanding, if you've had to decide to wait until next mon th or next payday to buy turnbuckles because your kids tuition was due or you had some dental bills to pay or you just took on a c ar payment, if you've thought seriously about giving up your project completely and just selling it on ebay, and if you've done all these things to build your very own Pietenpol then I say you can put whatever the heck you please on your airplane to finish the fab ric. You can use whatever engine you want, Model A, Corvair, Subaru, Continental, Evinrude, wood landing gear, steel gear, Cub tires, motorcycle wheels, long fuselage, short fuselage, nose fuel, wing fuel, both nose and wing fuel, wider center section, a cent er section with a flop or a center section with a cutout, a clipped wing Pietenpol, or even (and some will gasp at this one) build a Grega GN-1 then you have every right to make every decision about the options you chose for your airplane. When people come up to me and say "well why didn't you......" my general response is "well when YOU build your Pietenpol.....YOU can incorporate that into yo ur airplane" but I chose to 'do it this way'. Mike C. in Ohio PS-- there are some latex finished airplanes out there that really don't lo ok bad....Shad and Gary Bell's a very nice example of a latex-painted Piet and I had to look twice up close before I realized it...so it can be d one, it can save lots of money (which is very admirable if safety is not co mpromised) and it can look okay ! ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex ?
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 14, 2009
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From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex ?
Date: Feb 14, 2009
Mike, You certainly covered the gamut, although I notice you left out wood struts and home-made turnbuckles. I am not a tree-hugger. In fact, Lord knows the trees on my property shudder when they see me emerge from my shed with my chainsaw and goalie mask! And I actually spent the night in the hospital from breathing too many paint fumes while working on my Aeronca Sedan. But the building industry, of which I am a part, is becoming fully immersed in Green. Architects are commanded to look for green solutions, and many manufacturers have responded. Just the other night I attended a presentation by Benjamin Moore that focused on this aspect. It was interesting to note that, not only are they solving the VOC issues, but the paints they are now offering are a huge improvement, performance-wise. This is not an endorsement of BM, as I am sure all the major manufacturers have comparable products, but among those improvements are: Greater flexibility, and much greater UV resistance! Both highly desirable for us. The low and zero VOC paints force the manufacturers to look at new solutions to old problems, including how the pigments interact with resins in the paint. Plus, most of these paints are considered 'high build'. That's 3 points for us.what's the down side? In his opinion Mike noted so delicately that Latex ".looks like crap." I am curious, from those on this List that know WAY more about paint than I, what input you may have on the quality of low and zero VOC vs. common latex. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex ? Forgive the intrusion good people, (fans of TGWP will recognize that line) but if I might interject a personal opinion about latex finishes: they look like crap. Please allow me to further express my sentiments that I am a staunch supporter of those who use latex paint or any other method to finish the fabric on their airplane or many simple reasons----if you took the time to saw up wood, make metal fittings from raw sheet and tube 4130 material, learned how to weld and rib stitch, if you have burned your fingers on recently-ground fittings, if you've had T-88 in places where you didn't even know you had places, if you've coughed all night long from inhaling wood dust particles from sanding, if you've had to decide to wait until next month or next payday to buy turnbuckles because your kids tuition was due or you had some dental bills to pay or you just took on a car payment, if you've thought seriously about giving up your project completely and just selling it on ebay, and if you've done all these things to build your very own Pietenpol then I say you can put whatever the heck you please on your airplane to finish the fabric. You can use whatever engine you want, Model A, Corvair, Subaru, Continental, Evinrude, wood landing gear, steel gear, Cub tires, motorcycle wheels, long fuselage, short fuselage, nose fuel, wing fuel, both nose and wing fuel, wider center section, a center section with a flop or a center section with a cutout, a clipped wing Pietenpol, or even (and some will gasp at this one) build a Grega GN-1 then you have every right to make every decision about the options you chose for your airplane. When people come up to me and say "well why didn't you......" my general response is "well when YOU build your Pietenpol.....YOU can incorporate that into your airplane" but I chose to 'do it this way'. Mike C. in Ohio PS-- there are some latex finished airplanes out there that really don't look bad....Shad and Gary Bell's a very nice example of a latex-painted Piet and I had to look twice up close before I realized it...so it can be done, it can save lots of money (which is very admirable if safety is not compromised) and it can look okay ! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex ?
Well, well, well, I can't comment on the latex paint stuff, yet; (although my father in law is a retired chemist from Glidden that holds many patents on-his latex works and he will be consulted when I get ready to paint.) - I can say that for the rest of Cuy's post...That's right! It's your pla ne, build how you want and don't let the nay-sayers get in the way. #yiv123243201 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TO P:0px;} #yiv123243201 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;} Forgive the intrusion good people,-(fans of TGWP will recognize that line ) but if I might interject a personal opinion about latex finishes: they look like crap.- - Please allow me to further express my sentiments-that I am a staunch supp orter of those who use latex paint or any other method to finish the fabric on their airplane or many simple reasons----if you took the time to saw up wood, make metal fittings from raw sheet and tube 4130 material,-learned how to weld and rib stitch , -if you have-burned your fingers on recently-ground fittings, if you've had T-88 in places where you didn't even know you had p laces,-if you've coughed all night long from inhaling wood dust particles from-sanding, if you've had to decide to wait until next m onth or next payday to buy turnbuckles because your kids tuition was due or you had some dental bills to-pay or you just took on a car payment, if you've thought seriously about giving up your project completely and just selling it on ebay, and if you've done all these things to build-your very own Pietenpol then I say you can put whatever the heck you please on your airplane to finish the fab ric.--- You can use whatever engine you want, Model A,- Corvair, Subaru, Continental, Evinrude, wood landing gear, steel gear, Cub tires, motorcycle wheels, long fuselage, short fuselage, nose fuel, wing fuel, both nose and wing fuel, wider center-section, a ce nter section with a flop or a center section with a cutout, a clipped wing Pietenpol, or even (and some will gasp at this one) build a Grega GN-1 then you have every right to make every decision about the options you chose for your airplane.-- When people come up to me and say "well why didn't you......" my general response is "well when YOU build your Pietenpol.....YOU can incorporate that into yo ur airplane" but I chose to 'do it this way'.--- - - ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: full interview-- 60 Minutes Interview w/ Captain Sullenberger
Awsome guy,awsome landing;he was probably the best man for the job having b een a trainer himself.He knew the sequence automatically,that's what traini ng does for you.It has to be automatic because there is no time to think. H aving been in three different sequences myself of having to do an emergency landing and not being far from the ground.You have to look fast and think unbelievably fast and you can't panic or it will kill you.=0A=0A=0Ado not a rchive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" =0ATo: "pietenpol-list@matron ics.com" =0ASent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 2:46:10 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: full interview-- 60 Minutes Intervie w w/ Captain Sullenberger=0A=0A=0A=0AOf possible interest: =0A-=0Ado not archive =0A-=0Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e88PN6V64gk=0A-=0A- ===================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: full interview-- 60 Minutes Interview w/ Captain
Sullenberger
Date: Feb 14, 2009
The flight attendants kept the passengers from opening the doors, not on direction from the front, but their own knowledge and training. There is no switch to prevent it. The only real difference between his landing and a normal landing, technique-wise, was to close the "ditch switch," which he did not do. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2009
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Rick. I guess I must have missed that section, or forgot it was there. I went back through and found what you were referring to, and reread it. Could you descibe roughly the process you used to mock yours up? Ryan On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Rick Holland wrote: > I went with the mount described in William Wynnes manual, he dedicates > around six pages one just building the mount. > > Rick > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: to fly or build?
Date: Feb 14, 2009
Scott, Where are you building? In NJ? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Knowlton To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:39 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Tom, I suppose all of us share your dilemna of trying to justify the time and expense that we devote to our passion for flying. If I can add my two cents here, I am a professional pilot who was in your position with a fresh IFR ticket and plans to build a Piet over 12 years ago (with a two year old son in toe). My instrument rating was to be my meal ticket so there was no question of whether that was going to lapse or not. This being the case, some of my ambitious plans had to be temporarily shelved in favour of my work and family obligations. Life went on, I moved ahead in my flying career but the Piet consisted of a mailing tube with a couple of dusty manuals in my workshop. Beaming ahead, my son (having grown to nine years old) and I drove to and camped at Brodhead. With a little more time on my hands and a little better disposable income, I felt I could "unshelve" my Piet plans and start the building process. The tradition of Brodhead continued for the past five years and for my boy and I it is truly a father and son bonding experience. We listen to William Wynn's inspiring, "Get in the Arena" presentations, go for an annual ride in a Piet with Chuck G, take lots of pictures and stay up late by the fire listening to different builders and flyers of my favorite little airplane. As far as building goes, we have made a rib jig and about 14 cool looking ribs. I don't have much to show for my 12 years of effort but that's OK. We all have this burden called life that we have to contend with and it takes a certain amount of drive out of our passion. I suppose I divide things into two categories; things I need to do and things I'd like to do. I need to go to work, pay my bills, watch my boy's football games, take my bride on holidays and save for my retirement. The Piet falls into the like to do category that tends to slide forward anytime a need to do gets in the way. Nevertheless, I think I will fly my bird to Brodhead one day (or maybe share the trip trading places with my son in the chase car...) but it would only be a frustration to put a date or year on when the event will transpire. In the meantime, my project is something that I attend to when I want to relax or spend some quality time with my boy. Most things that we do have a timeline attached to them and these deadlines are the stress inducers in life. I don't want my piet project to be lumped into that category. Aviation is an expesnsive hobby and one which should be approached with a focus if someone has to budget time and money (which most of us do). Your IFR ticket, unless you use it very frequently will probably become a burden if you chose to keep it current. It will take you away from your family and the return (the ability to fly in less than VFR weather conditions) probably won't be worth the investment. Your pietenpol, however, is a project of so many different aspects that it could very easily reflect the different phases of your life (slow progress while your family is young - perhaps a late hour or two in the shop after the youngsters are asleep) with an increase in activity as your family grows seeing you spend time with your kids in the shop. No chore of building here, just relaxation and enjoyment as the parts and pieces of your airplane are slowly manufactured. In sum, I think your project would be much easier to dust off and get back into than a rating which really isn't necessary to be proficient at unless you have a huge need to go somewhere anytime in any weather ("any wheather" should be taken loosely unless you fly a bird equipped for known ice, have a good weather radar, oxygen or pressurization......). Basic VFR flying skills are something you will always have and dusting those off would consist of a fun five our checkout in a champ or cub in preparation for the maiden flight of your piet! Just my thoughts on your situation. Scott Knowlton ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: tmbrant(at)msn.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:55:30 -0600 I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private, instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've really had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year, mostly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to stay safe, especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time, in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is, I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3 complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to work on it, but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is, that if I do stop flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I do, I would never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's ready to start hanging around in the shop with me, unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him, just that he'd pick up two newly glued pieces of wood, right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young... The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000, which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying. Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly before they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it is. Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations. Tom B. ww.matronics.com/contribution st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: to fly or build?
Build when you have time to build.- Money is not too big of a problem wit h a piet.(all at once any ways)- $100-$200 of raw materials will take a w hile to use up on some early stages of building, ribs tail etc.- I know a n-IFR rating sounds fun and exciting, but unless it makes, or saves you m oney on travel it is very seldom worth the time and money to keep current. - Don't get me wrong, it can save you butt in a tight situation,-but- when Pilots have to use thier supperior skills to keep them selves or the airplane intact, chances are they made an inferrior-judgement call before they got into that situation.- If IFR is your passion follow it, if buil ding is, follow it.- I know how kids can slow progress as well.- I just had my 1st 2 months ago and finding time to work out in the hanger is hard to come by, but I try to make the best of the time available.- I go out to the shop the night before for 5-10 min and plan out ahead of time what t o do with my next shop time.- Think about it that night, do it all in your he ad then go out and do it for real, 1 little project at a time.- Try not t o look at the whole airplane as the project, but rather that rib you have t o build, or some gussets you need to cut out, or a few pieces of steel that need dressed out.- One by one they add up and one day all the sudden it' s an airplane.- And for your thought of wanting your aging or sick family member to be able to see it fly, I can relate.- My grand father(now in h is 80's)-started a Cassutt back in the 70's and I have it now,- I would love for him to be able to see it fly, but it all comes in due time.- Ju st remember that you are building because you want to, not because they wan t you to.- They would surely not want you to rush, and possibly do some t hing that could hurt you or kill you.- Bassically, You have to make up yo ur mind as to what path to follow.- Building a Piet is surely a reachable goal, even on a low buddget.- It will take many years and many hours to do it but for most homebuilders, it's as much about the journy of building as it is about getting to the flying of your creation.- (But flying it IS THE ICING ON THE CAKE!).- - Shad - P.S.- A piet is I.F.R.R.R.........I follow roads, rivers, and railroads =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 14, 2009
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Hello Ryan I first built and welded the tray and spools on a flat surface, then you just need a jig to hold the tray where you want it in front of the firewall. This is where that big ash firewall cross member (that you thought was of no use unless you are using a Model A engine) came in handy. Just clamped a 1x4 to it (with the fuselage upside down) and clamped the tray to the 1x4 where I needed the engine to be to make CG, then cut and welded the rest of the tubing (see attached pics). Good luck Rick On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > Thanks Rick. I guess I must have missed that section, or forgot it was > there. I went back through and found what you were referring to, and reread > it. Could you descibe roughly the process you used to mock yours up? > > Ryan > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Rick Holland wrote: > >> I went with the mount described in William Wynnes manual, he dedicates >> around six pages one just building the mount. >> >> Rick >> >> > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2009
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for the info and the additional pics, Rick. By using the 1x4 clamped to the underside of the ash crossmember, did you arrive at the 0 degrees downthrust and thrust line level with the upper longerons, as WW did with his second Piet mount? It appears to be roughly that way from what I can tell in the first set of pics, but the angle of the photo makes it difficult to make out the thrust line for sure. Here's another slew of questions: Did you use the 3/4" .049 tubing as called out in the conversion manual? Did you use gas or TIG to weld it? Also, did you finish weld the mount in place on the fuselage, or did you tack it and finish it off the fuselage? In either case, did you take any steps to avoid warpage/deformation (beyond what is shown in the pics), or did you even find that to be an issue? Thank you for the taking the time to field all my questions. Have a good day, Ryan On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Rick Holland wrote > Hello Ryan > > I first built and welded the tray and spools on a flat surface, then you > just need a jig to hold the tray where you want it in front of the firewall. > This is where that big ash firewall cross member (that you thought was of no > use unless you are using a Model A engine) came in handy. Just clamped a 1x4 > to it (with the fuselage upside down) and clamped the tray to the 1x4 where > I needed the engine to be to make CG, then cut and welded the rest of the > tubing (see attached pics). > > Good luck > > Rick > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > >> Thanks Rick. I guess I must have missed that section, or forgot it was >> there. I went back through and found what you were referring to, and reread >> it. Could you descibe roughly the process you used to mock yours up? >> >> Ryan >> >> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Rick Holland wrote: >> >>> I went with the mount described in William Wynnes manual, he dedicates >>> around six pages one just building the mount. >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
Nice welds, Rick. I built a Corvair mount to the Pietenpol plans, then decided to use a Continental powerplant. William Wynn recommends stress testing your mount and here are some pictures of the tool I made to test mine. (I still have the old mount up in the attic. Who knows, maybe I'll decide to go Corvair later). I welded mine on the airplane, but don't think I'd recommend it. When I made my Continental mount I made a jig that duplicated the firewall bracket locations. I made the jig out of scrap lumber, and set it on fire a few times before I had the whole thing tacked together. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=1322&PlaneID=481 \ Ben Charvet Rick Holland wrote: > Hello Ryan > > I first built and welded the tray and spools on a flat surface, then > you just need a jig to hold the tray where you want it in front of the > firewall. This is where that big ash firewall cross member (that you > thought was of no use unless you are using a Model A engine) came in > handy. Just clamped a 1x4 to it (with the fuselage upside down) and > clamped the tray to the 1x4 where I needed the engine to be to make > CG, then cut and welded the rest of the tubing (see attached pics). > > Good luck > > Rick > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Ryan Mueller > wrote: > > Thanks Rick. I guess I must have missed that section, or forgot it > was there. I went back through and found what you were referring > to, and reread it. Could you descibe roughly the process you used > to mock yours up? > > Ryan > > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Rick Holland > wrote: > > I went with the mount described in William Wynnes manual, he > dedicates around six pages one just building the mount. > > Rick > > > * > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: pinked tapes
From: "jimd" <jlducey(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 15, 2009
I have pinking shears and even a pair of perfect pinker rotary pinking shears. You know how ransom notes look vs. Desktop publishing, well, I want my strips even, so like most of you I bought pinked fabric tape in a roll, and thought it was pricey. You can get fabric for four something a yard, but the tape was a lot more. Wasn't referring to bias tape, you can use heat to make regular tape work on rounded surfaces. Mike Cuy mentioned latex aesthetics and has a point, but I am still experimenting. If it turns out well it will end up on my wings if not I will use the latex primer as the base for Stewart Systems polyurethane as that looks as good as Stits.. Don,t want an ugly plane but I want some gas money when I get done. Jim d Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230422#230422 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: pinked tapes
Date: Feb 15, 2009
"Ugly" is in the eye of the beholder. Go to the flybaby site and you will see some great looking latex paint jobs. When looking at other airplanes I really try to keep in mind what my best friend said when I told him I had bought a Pietenpol. "Gene, why the hell did you do that? The Pietenpol is the Ugliest airplane ever designed. I can't imagine anyone wanting one of those." I love my Pietenpol and I think it's one of the prettiest airplane I have ever seen. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Do it your way and you will not only have a pretty airplane that you'll love but you'll also still have money for gas. Gene N502R ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" <jlducey(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: pinked tapes > > I have pinking shears and even a pair of perfect pinker rotary pinking > shears. You know how ransom notes look vs. Desktop publishing, well, I > want my strips even, so like most of you I bought pinked fabric tape in a > roll, and thought it was pricey. You can get fabric for four something a > yard, but the tape was a lot more. > > Wasn't referring to bias tape, you can use heat to make regular tape work > on rounded surfaces. > > Mike Cuy mentioned latex aesthetics and has a point, but I am still > experimenting. If it turns out well it will end up on my wings if not I > will use the latex primer as the base for Stewart Systems polyurethane as > that looks as good as Stits.. > > Don,t want an ugly plane but I want some gas money when I get done. > > Jim d > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230422#230422 > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 2/13/2009 6:29 PM > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: to fly or build?
Date: Feb 15, 2009
Tom=3B I have been an instrument student for almost as long as I've been a pilot... over 30 years. I've taken=2C and passed with an 85 the first time and a 90 the next=2C the instrument written. I have hood time and actual time=2C not a lot but in singles and in twins=2C and I love instrument flying and procedures. However=2C I will never get my instrument ticket and I'll be perfectly happy not to because I'd never be able to stay current. Both literally (by the book) and mentally (proficiency). However=2C I have learned more about actual flying of aircraft from my Pietenpol than I ever have in 30 years of instrument instruction=2C reading=2C flying=2C testing=2C or any of the rest of it. When it comes crunch time=2C like in a ditch situation=2C I'll take Piet flying skills over instrument skills any day. And I can fly the Piet for an hour for less than $20. There is no instrument capable aircraft in my vicinity that I could rent for an hour for less than 3 or 4 times that=2C and I'd also need an in$tructor. By the way=2C flying is like riding a bike. Once you learn=2C you'll never forget. You can get your basic skills back in a few hours of dual time=2C maybe less. So raise your 2-year-old. I raised five of them and got them all past middle school before I started building an airplane and I didn't get into my Piet until our youngest was already in college. The Piet is 80 years old this year=3B it will be just as good in 10 years when you're ready to get back to building =3Bo) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex?
Date: Feb 15, 2009
Mikee- Since you are the builder of an award-winning Piet with a gorgeous paint job=2C I accept your comments as extremely valuable. But if I may=2C I'd like to offer my observations on the latex paint that I just applied side-by-side with Poly-Tone. 1. Flexibility is NOT an issue! Fabric finished with latex is almost TOO limp compared to conventional solvent-based finishes. I would be very=2C very surprised if latex paint ever cracked on a fabric airplane=2C even directly in the drumming of a propwash area. 2. When applied in full=2C thick coats latex seems quite prone to runs. Especially when applied using flow-out agents=2C I would be very surprised if a decent paint job could be laid down on anything but a perfectly horizontal surface. BUT- I am NOT a painter! I just know that the paint needs to go down pretty heavily to block UV=2C and that makes it susceptible to runs because it doesn't dry particularly fast=2C compared with Poly-Tone. 3. Standard Poly-Tone=2C when dry=2C appears to be closer to a flat paint finish than a satin or semi-gloss. I don't know if you or others have added other finishes over the standard color coat to give it gloss or sheen=2C but the Poly-Tone I've used is smooth but certainly not shiny. In that respect it makes a fabric airplane look like a fabric airplane=2C but not a shiny one. Latex=2C on the other hand=2C gives a very smooth and satiny finish and there is no sign of the weave. 4. I can't say anything about the crispness of masked edges with either finish since I haven't done that yet=2C but perhaps this is one area that you have a beef with? What parts of latex paint jobs that you've seen made you think they looked lousy? I'm not defending either side here=2C just trying to learn. And you'll note from pictures of me that my ears are always fully extended in listening mode =3Bo) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BScott116(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 15, 2009
Subject: Re: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex?
Just a few notes on poly finishes. I just completed wings and fuselage of my ultralite---all in the poly system. If you put on enough poly brush as recommended in the manual you will not see the weave in the fabric. As I progressed in the learning curve, I applied more vinyl in the poly brush coats for a smoother appearance.. I started with tail surfaces and did wings next then fuselage. My fuselage is the smoothest. The tail surfaces show the most weave. Just a matter of learning how to spray "wet" and avoid runs. I don't know why y'all are trying to save money with non aero finishes. Seems more risky and waste of time to avoid aero systems that really work. Just my opinion as a first time builder. have at it! In a message dated 2/15/2009 9:03:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes: Mikee- Since you are the builder of an award-winning Piet with a gorgeous paint job, I accept your comments as extremely valuable. But if I may, I'd like to offer my observations on the latex paint that I just applied side-by-side with Poly-Tone. 1. Flexibility is NOT an issue! Fabric finished with latex is almost TOO limp compared to conventional solvent-based finishes. I would be very, very surprised if latex paint ever cracked on a fabric airplane, even directly in the drumming of a propwash area. 2. When applied in full, thick coats latex seems quite prone to runs. Especially when applied using flow-out agents, I would be very surprised if a decent paint job could be laid down on anything but a perfectly horizontal surface. BUT- I am NOT a painter! I just know that the paint needs to go down pretty heavily to block UV, and that makes it susceptible to runs because it doesn't dry particularly fast, compared with Poly-Tone. 3. Standard Poly-Tone, when dry, appears to be closer to a flat paint finish than a satin or semi-gloss. I don't know if you or others have added other finishes over the standard color coat to give it gloss or sheen, but the Poly-Tone I've used is smooth but certainly not shiny. In that respect it makes a fabric airplane look like a fabric airplane, but not a shiny one. Latex, on the other hand, gives a very smooth and satiny finish and there is no sign of the weave. 4. I can't say anything about the crispness of masked edges with either finish since I haven't done that yet, but perhaps this is one area that you have a beef with? What parts of latex paint jobs that you've seen made you think they looked lousy? I'm not defending either side here, just trying to learn. And you'll note from pictures of me that my ears are always fully extended in listening mode ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! bemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 15, 2009
Subject: Re: Gary & Shad's motor mount
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Questions are no problem Ryan. On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 6:22 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > Thanks for the info and the additional pics, Rick. By using the 1x4 clamped > to the underside of the ash crossmember, did you arrive at the 0 degrees > downthrust and thrust line level with the upper longerons, as WW did with > his second Piet mount? It appears to be roughly that way from what I can > tell in the first set of pics, but the angle of the photo makes it difficult > to make out the thrust line for sure. Yes the tray is shimmed to be parallel with the top longerons. > > > Here's another slew of questions: > Did you use the 3/4" .049 tubing as called out in the conversion manual? Yes exactly what WW specified. > Did you use gas or TIG to weld it? TIG > Also, did you finish weld the mount in place on the fuselage, or did you > tack it and finish it off the fuselage? I tacked it on the fueslage then finished it off. As far a deformation, the upper and lower mount points ended up about 1/4" narrower than the plates on the fuselage but it was no problem bending it a little to fit. I am sure it would have been better to build a jig out of angle iron matching the fuselage mount points but I was too lazy. In either case, did you take any steps to avoid warpage/deformation (beyond > what is shown in the pics), or did you even find that to be an issue? > > Thank you for the taking the time to field all my questions. Have a good > day, > > Ryan > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Rick Holland wrote > > Hello Ryan >> >> I first built and welded the tray and spools on a flat surface, then you >> just need a jig to hold the tray where you want it in front of the firewall. >> This is where that big ash firewall cross member (that you thought was of no >> use unless you are using a Model A engine) came in handy. Just clamped a 1x4 >> to it (with the fuselage upside down) and clamped the tray to the 1x4 where >> I needed the engine to be to make CG, then cut and welded the rest of the >> tubing (see attached pics). >> >> Good luck >> >> Rick >> >> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Ryan Mueller wrote: >> >>> Thanks Rick. I guess I must have missed that section, or forgot it was >>> there. I went back through and found what you were referring to, and reread >>> it. Could you descibe roughly the process you used to mock yours up? >>> >>> Ryan >>> >> -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2009
Subject: Re: Weight does matter but cosmentics of latex?
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
. I don't know why y'all are trying to save money with non aero finishes. > Seems more risky and waste of time to avoid aero systems that really work. > Just my opinion as a first time builder. have at it! > > > $300 vs. $3000 is my main reason. -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: pinked tapes
Date: Feb 16, 2009
On ebay you can find some antique hand-crank pinked cutters for making rolls. I did not buy one because they did not look like they were capable of cutting wider than 3/4" or 1" I think they are for pinking only the edge of a bolt of fabric (dress not wing) . I am sure that they could be modified, but we did not try. We ended up buying from A/Spruce. Even with our deep discount it still hurt. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" <jlducey(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 7:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: pinked tapes > > I have pinking shears and even a pair of perfect pinker rotary pinking > shears. You know how ransom notes look vs. Desktop publishing, well, I > want my strips even, so like most of you I bought pinked fabric tape in a > roll, and thought it was pricey. You can get fabric for four something a > yard, but the tape was a lot more. > > Wasn't referring to bias tape, you can use heat to make regular tape work > on rounded surfaces. > > Mike Cuy mentioned latex aesthetics and has a point, but I am still > experimenting. If it turns out well it will end up on my wings if not I > will use the latex primer as the base for Stewart Systems polyurethane as > that looks as good as Stits.. > > Don,t want an ugly plane but I want some gas money when I get done. > > Jim d > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230422#230422 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 16, 2009
Subject: latex
In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of 1934 establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no fumes, easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the fabric fr om UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what I recall and if not mistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to ge t that nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired latex is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex lo oks like crap though:)) Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: airlion(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: latex
Date: Feb 17, 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
From: airlion(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: latex
Date: Feb 17, 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2009
Subject: Re: latex
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out in the corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out fairly glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make a Super Gloss version of the stuff. And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and money to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool ;) Rick On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] <Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote: > > In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of 1934 > establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no fumes, > easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the fabric from > UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what I > recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get that > nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired latex > is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can > provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex > looks like crap though:)) > > Mike C. in Ohio > > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: latex-- some considerations
Rick, I had saved the results of your test, and recall that: a) you were very pleased with the durability of the latex paint; b) the latex paint over the first coat of PolyBrush did not fare as well in your punch test as the side with four coats of latex. You did not comment on the cause of this. Were all other variables held constant; e.g., were both samples equally taut? Based on your results, knowing nothing else, I would conclude that I should not put latex over PolyFiber first coats. Is that right? Anyone chime in on this part, if you like, for others must have done this very thing. In my case, I have enough PolyBrush stuff to do the primer and UV block (silver), but have no finish paint. Since Mr. Market has cut my wealth nearly in half in the last year, I am looking for shortcuts that will lower the cost of the final build without sacrificing safety, performance, or looks. I was planning the flatter PolyBrush finishes anyway, to AVOID respirator and separate air supply for the glossy stuff-- PolyTone? I suspect that, as Oscar points out, I can get as good appearance with latex as with PolyBrush. I have been considering doing the wings in white, and the fuze in a more vibrant color. Others have done this, and I like the looks. (Jack Phillips' plane is a good example.) With this in mind, I might make the wings white latex and the fuze [at least firewall back] all PolyBrush. I can more easily rotate each wing for painting, so that the surface would be flat, to avoid runs with latex. OTOH, latex on the fuze might allow the builder to use the same paint on the fabric and the cowl, whether aluminum or fiberglass, or both. I'd welcome comments from anyone on these considerations. Thanks. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex > >I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out in the >corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out fairly >glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make a Super >Gloss version of the stuff. >And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and money >to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool ;) > >Rick > >On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] ><Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote: > >> >> In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of 1934 >> establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no fumes, >> easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the fabric from >> UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what I >> recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get that >> nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired latex >> is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can >> provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex >> looks like crap though:)) >> >> Mike C. in Ohio >> >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > > >-- >Rick Holland >Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 16, 2009
Subject: Re: latex-- some considerations
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Hello Tim Yes both sides were (and still are) equally taut. And even though the one coat polybrush/three latex side punched through it only went through at the very top of the range of the gauge, so I doubt if it makes that much difference. But given the results I can see no reason to spend the money on polybrush. As far a problems with drips, I spray painted my entire house and painted the test panel with a brush and had no drip problems (even with the paint thinned). Rick On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tim Willis wrote: > timothywillis(at)earthlink.net> > > Rick, > > I had saved the results of your test, and recall that: > a) you were very pleased with the durability of the latex paint; > b) the latex paint over the first coat of PolyBrush did not fare as well in > your punch test as the side with four coats of latex. > > You did not comment on the cause of this. Were all other variables held > constant; e.g., were both samples equally taut? > > Based on your results, knowing nothing else, I would conclude that I should > not put latex over PolyFiber first coats. Is that right? Anyone chime in > on this part, if you like, for others must have done this very thing. > > In my case, I have enough PolyBrush stuff to do the primer and UV block > (silver), but have no finish paint. Since Mr. Market has cut my wealth > nearly in half in the last year, I am looking for shortcuts that will lower > the cost of the final build without sacrificing safety, performance, or > looks. I was planning the flatter PolyBrush finishes anyway, to AVOID > respirator and separate air supply for the glossy stuff-- PolyTone? I > suspect that, as Oscar points out, I can get as good appearance with latex > as with PolyBrush. > > I have been considering doing the wings in white, and the fuze in a more > vibrant color. Others have done this, and I like the looks. (Jack > Phillips' plane is a good example.) With this in mind, I might make the > wings white latex and the fuze [at least firewall back] all PolyBrush. I > can more easily rotate each wing for painting, so that the surface would be > flat, to avoid runs with latex. > > OTOH, latex on the fuze might allow the builder to use the same paint on > the fabric and the cowl, whether aluminum or fiberglass, or both. > > I'd welcome comments from anyone on these considerations. > > Thanks. > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> > >Sent: Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM > >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex > > > >I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out in the > >corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out fairly > >glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make a > Super > >Gloss version of the stuff. > >And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and money > >to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool ;) > > > >Rick > > > >On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] > ><Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote: > > > >> > >> In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of > 1934 > >> establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no > fumes, > >> easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the fabric > from > >> UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what > I > >> recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get > that > >> nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired > latex > >> is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can > >> provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex > >> looks like crap though:)) > >> > >> Mike C. in Ohio > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> * > >> > >> * > >> > >> > > > > > >-- > >Rick Holland > >Castle Rock, Colorado > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: latex
for some strange reason your emails are still not getting through with any information in the body--- airlion(at)bellsouth.net" =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____ ____________________________=0AFrom: "airlion(at)bellsouth.net" <airlion@bells outh.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, February 16, 2 009 8:00:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 17, 2009
Subject: latex
Rick, There was an older gent in the early 90's named Ed Snyder from Round Lake NY who had a red and cream Model A Piet at Brodhead and it was done entirely in latex and he had a very nice gloss to it so I believe that you can achieve that type of finish if you desire it. Great enduranc e test you're performing. Mikee ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: latex-- some considerations
Date: Feb 17, 2009
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
One consideration that I have not seen discused about latex is: How do you repair it? Having had to make some repairs on my Pietenpol with its Stits Aerothane polyurethane paint, I'm very sensitive to ease of repair. Polyurethane requires sanding to remove it - you have to sand it down (which is difficult without cutting through the underlying fabric) until you get to the silver polyspray beneath, and then you can use MEK to remove it. Pain in the Butt! PolyTone can be removed by simply wiping it with MEK and repairs are dead easy. How easy is it to remove latex? Don't assume you will never have to repair your Pietenpol. It happens to the best of us, due to accidents ranging from forced landings to hangar rash. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex-- some considerations Hello Tim Yes both sides were (and still are) equally taut. And even though the one coat polybrush/three latex side punched through it only went through at the very top of the range of the gauge, so I doubt if it makes that much difference. But given the results I can see no reason to spend the money on polybrush. As far a problems with drips, I spray painted my entire house and painted the test panel with a brush and had no drip problems (even with the paint thinned). Rick On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tim Willis wrote: Rick, I had saved the results of your test, and recall that: a) you were very pleased with the durability of the latex paint; b) the latex paint over the first coat of PolyBrush did not fare as well in your punch test as the side with four coats of latex. You did not comment on the cause of this. Were all other variables held constant; e.g., were both samples equally taut? Based on your results, knowing nothing else, I would conclude that I should not put latex over PolyFiber first coats. Is that right? Anyone chime in on this part, if you like, for others must have done this very thing. In my case, I have enough PolyBrush stuff to do the primer and UV block (silver), but have no finish paint. Since Mr. Market has cut my wealth nearly in half in the last year, I am looking for shortcuts that will lower the cost of the final build without sacrificing safety, performance, or looks. I was planning the flatter PolyBrush finishes anyway, to AVOID respirator and separate air supply for the glossy stuff-- PolyTone? I suspect that, as Oscar points out, I can get as good appearance with latex as with PolyBrush. I have been considering doing the wings in white, and the fuze in a more vibrant color. Others have done this, and I like the looks. (Jack Phillips' plane is a good example.) With this in mind, I might make the wings white latex and the fuze [at least firewall back] all PolyBrush. I can more easily rotate each wing for painting, so that the surface would be flat, to avoid runs with latex. OTOH, latex on the fuze might allow the builder to use the same paint on the fabric and the cowl, whether aluminum or fiberglass, or both. I'd welcome comments from anyone on these considerations. Thanks. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex > >I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out in the >corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out fairly >glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make a Super >Gloss version of the stuff. >And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and money >to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool ;) > >Rick > >On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] ><Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote: > >> >> In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of 1934 >> establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no fumes, >> easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the fabric from >> UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what I >> recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get that >> nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired latex >> is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can >> provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex >> looks like crap though:)) >> >> Mike C. in Ohio >> >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > > >-- >Rick Holland >Castle Rock, Colorado br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List MS - k">http://forums.matronics.com e - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2009
From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Latex
I don't know who started escalating this cost comparison and I don't know w here you are getting your figures but my whole airplane is done with the po ly-fiber process and it was a whole lot cheaper than $3000. All of my recie pts are in a box somewhere and I did my covering and painting over a period of time (just like the rest of the project) so I didn't feel the bite all at once. The entire airplane cost was $8000 and I am pretty sure that the p oly-fiber bill was a bit less than $1000. - I chose poly-fiber because I'm not a gambler and I-just flat gave up an a ll of the conflicting "expert opinions" about alternative finishes and went with what had been proven to the F.A.A. and a whole lot of homebuilders ov er a period of about 50 years. There have been a few aero paint companies t hroughout the years that have disappeared but Poly-Fiber (Stitts) has estab lished a strong track record and It was one more decision that I made with the thought in mind that once it's done, it's done and I don't have to worr y about it's performance. - Do what you want guys, just don't get the idea that your way is the revolut ionary wave of the future and the rest of us are just too bone-headed to "g et it". Variety is what keeps us moving and as things like this evolve, the benefits will become obvious........so will the things to avoid. - Larry Williams xcg, xcmr, epp=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: latex- some considerations
Date: Feb 17, 2009
1. I would not apply latex over Poly-Fiber finishes. Use one system or the other. My concern would be for insufficient mechanical bonding or gripping of the latex to the Poly-Brush or Poly-Spray=2C although that's just my gut feeling and I have no actual peel tests to prove anything either way. I guess that could be a whole other series of tests =3Bo) 2. Punch testing: if you're using a Maule tester=2C read the Poly-Fiber manual section on the subject. ALL finishes must be removed from the test area before using the punch tester. You need to test the fabric=2C not the finishes. In the case of Poly-Fiber system=2C you'd have to clean the test area of all finishes down to bare fabric before testing=2C probabl y with MEK. In the case of latex=2C I think Steve Eldredge has demonstrated a method using a heat gun to soften the finish and then roll it off=2C but I'd be very surprised if the initial coat (I guess I'll call it the grip coat) can be removed that way since it is intentionally applied so as to soak into the weave and mechanically grip it. And of course you wouldn't want to use any sort of chemical paint stripper on fabric. 3. I used the satin latex on my test panels and I'll bet the gloss finish i s as glossy as anyone would ever want to use on an airplane. The Poly-Fiber manual explains that the Maule tester was developed for use with organic coverings anyway (cotton)=2C NOT synthetics=2C and that the actual test involves loading a strip of unfinished fabric with a certai n test weight to see if it fails. I don't have the number here but I believe it's 46 lbs. weight. So the Maule tester should only be used as a pass/ fail indication of fabric condition=2C not as an absolute value of its strength. I have acquired a very simple fabric tester that the ultralight folks use to test their Dacron sails. I got it from Lockwood Aviation. It's a modif ied belt tension tester with a small aluminum tip. I plan to test my fabric samples (with finishes removed) every three months for the next year=2C as they weather outdoors=2C not as a specific value of fabric strength but as a relative indication between bare fabric and the three finishes that I use d. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2009
Subject: Re: latex-- some considerations
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
>From Steve Eldredge, courtesy of WestCoastPiet: "I'm flying my piet that is starting its tenth year of life under latex finish. I've repaired it as well. I used the high gloss Sherwin Williams an d don't regret it. Check the archives for the process I used. Nice thing is, two years ago when I needed to repair a wingtip, I marched down to the loca l paint store and they mixed up a quart of the same color and you can't tell where the repair is. An iron at about 250 will roll the old latex off exposing the underlying fabric nicely. No sanding. Very cool." On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Phillips, Jack < Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com> wrote: > One consideration that I have not seen discused about latex is: How do > you repair it? Having had to make some repairs on my Pietenpol with its > Stits Aerothane polyurethane paint, I'm very sensitive to ease of repair. > Polyurethane requires sanding to remove it ' you have to sand it down ( which > is difficult without cutting through the underlying fabric) until you get to > the silver polyspray beneath, and then you can use MEK to remove it. Pai n > in the Butt! PolyTone can be removed by simply wiping it with MEK and > repairs are dead easy. How easy is it to remove latex? > > > Don't assume you will never have to repair your Pietenpol. It happens to > the best of us, due to accidents ranging from forced landings to hangar > rash. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Raleigh, NC > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Latex, latex latex
Group, As far as latex goes it works.- No it doesn't look as good as poly fiber or hand rubbed dope.- It looks OK though.- If I built-my own-piet I very well-MIGHT cover it and use latex, a go fast or acro, no I wouldn't use latex.- I don't know, but just a W.A.G. (wild ass guess), that many a piet in the 1930's-might have been-painted with barn paint, they all seem red and white, or silver, and money was very hard to come by.- Proba bly used what was on hand.- As far as repairs,- they are pretty easy wi th latex.- We had to do a repair to the rudder due to the off airport lan ding when the crank broke.- A 6 inch tear in both sides of lower rudder f rom a flat sharp stone thrown up by the wheels.- Just had to use mek to s trip off the paint, clean the fabric then glued on the patch with the ceco bond, and repaint.- Also had to put a patch pannel on when we added the s teerable tailwheel last spring.- So use what you like, have the money for , or feel comfortable with.- Yes safety is paramount, but let keep this real, "It ain't the space shuttle".- Just don't put super decathalon struts, and an IO-520 on it and I think your fabric will be OK. - Shad p.s. I think I am going to use the HIPEC system on my Jungster 1, looks pro mising.- Look it up at falconair's web site.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: latex-- some considerations
Date: Feb 17, 2009
Good point Jack. The flybaby site bowersflybaby.com has the answers to about all the questions that have been asked about painting with latex. Very interesting site. Also a geat place for engine advise. Another wonderful wooden homebuilt airplane. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: latex-- some considerations One consideration that I have not seen discused about latex is: How do you repair it? Having had to make some repairs on my Pietenpol with its Stits Aerothane polyurethane paint, I'm very sensitive to ease of repair. Polyurethane requires sanding to remove it - you have to sand it down (which is difficult without cutting through the underlying fabric) until you get to the silver polyspray beneath, and then you can use MEK to remove it. Pain in the Butt! PolyTone can be removed by simply wiping it with MEK and repairs are dead easy. How easy is it to remove latex? Don't assume you will never have to repair your Pietenpol. It happens to the best of us, due to accidents ranging from forced landings to hangar rash. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:10 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex-- some considerations Hello Tim Yes both sides were (and still are) equally taut. And even though the one coat polybrush/three latex side punched through it only went through at the very top of the range of the gauge, so I doubt if it makes that much difference. But given the results I can see no reason to spend the money on polybrush. As far a problems with drips, I spray painted my entire house and painted the test panel with a brush and had no drip problems (even with the paint thinned). Rick On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Tim Willis wrote: Rick, I had saved the results of your test, and recall that: a) you were very pleased with the durability of the latex paint; b) the latex paint over the first coat of PolyBrush did not fare as well in your punch test as the side with four coats of latex. You did not comment on the cause of this. Were all other variables held constant; e.g., were both samples equally taut? Based on your results, knowing nothing else, I would conclude that I should not put latex over PolyFiber first coats. Is that right? Anyone chime in on this part, if you like, for others must have done this very thing. In my case, I have enough PolyBrush stuff to do the primer and UV block (silver), but have no finish paint. Since Mr. Market has cut my wealth nearly in half in the last year, I am looking for shortcuts that will lower the cost of the final build without sacrificing safety, performance, or looks. I was planning the flatter PolyBrush finishes anyway, to AVOID respirator and separate air supply for the glossy stuff-- PolyTone? I suspect that, as Oscar points out, I can get as good appearance with latex as with PolyBrush. I have been considering doing the wings in white, and the fuze in a more vibrant color. Others have done this, and I like the looks. (Jack Phillips' plane is a good example.) With this in mind, I might make the wings white latex and the fuze [at least firewall back] all PolyBrush. I can more easily rotate each wing for painting, so that the surface would be flat, to avoid runs with latex. OTOH, latex on the fuze might allow the builder to use the same paint on the fabric and the cowl, whether aluminum or fiberglass, or both. I'd welcome comments from anyone on these considerations. Thanks. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex > >I beg to differ Mike, I painted my now famous "Latex test panel out in the >corral for 3 1/2 years" panel with Gloss ext latex and it came out fairly >glossy (and still is) and I didn't even use the glossiest, they make a Super >Gloss version of the stuff. >And as far as looking like crap, some people spend a lot of time and money >to look like crap, like some of those rock/rap stars. Crap can be cool ;) > >Rick > >On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] ><Michael.D.Cuy@ snasa.gov> wrote: > >> >> In accordance with the Radio Act of 1927 and the Communications Act of 1934 >> establishing equal time, here are a few about latex--- low cost, no fumes, >> easy to apply, water clean-up, and if done properly protects the fabric from >> UV. Fisher Flying Products was a pioneer in latex on fabric from what I >> recall and ifmistaken Lohele WWII replica's use a latex method to get that >> nice flat finish they are looking for. If a flat finish is desired latex >> is a good way to go however there are additives I understand that can >> provide some gloss. This is not a retraction of my opinion that latex >> looks like crap though:)) >> >> Mike C. in Ohio >> >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > > >-- >Rick Holland >Castle Rock, Colorado ========== br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== MS - k">http://forums.matronics.com ========== e - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 12:00 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 17, 2009
Subject: Re: latex
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I know its a tough job Mikey, but somebody has to do it. Rick Great endurance > test you're performing. > > Mikee > > > * > > = > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 18, 2009
Subject: Rick Holland's progress/latex
For those who have never had the pleasure of meeting Rick Holland in person , here he is with me at Oshkosh in 2005 with his other airplane:) From the photos Rick has posted he is doing top-quality work and I'm looking forwar d to enjoying the day when it all comes together for Rick when he starts to fly his Pietenpol. Funny thing is that for as long as you think it is tak ing you to build your airplane that when you finish you haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the enjoyment factor that lay ahead of you. I'm not a hiker or mountain climber but I can only think of how much easier it is (maybe) effort-wise to come down a hill than climb up it and I liken tha t to the enjoyment that those of you who stick with your projects to the po int of flying them will enjoy. Regarding the cosmetics of latex, if anyone can make latex look acceptable Rick Holland will be able to do it. As long as I'm rambling I can't help but think of how much I admire good craftsmanship on homebuilt airplanes or restorations of old airplanes to fine form but there is also something ver y appealing about the rough, worn, and rode-hard look of planes like you'll see at places like Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, New York. Both l ooks are equally appealing to me in very different ways. The only aversio n I have to lack of nice workmanship in homebuilt airplanes is the impressi on it gives to the general public at fly-in's or local airports. "you are actually going to fly in this piece of junk ?" Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Rick Holland's progress/latex
I am also a huge fan of the "weathered" planes out there. Clean, glossy, br ight paint has it's place-and it fits the Pietenpol well. However,-my " new" Pietenpol when done will not be shinny... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Newbie
From: "K5YAC" <k5yac(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 18, 2009
I am in the very early stages of deciding which kit I would like to build and I have more than a few questions about the Pietenpol. I really like the style, and it seems like something that I would enjoy building. I've read several books on kit building and have also built scale R/C models for over 20 years... hopefully these skills will help as I proceed to the next levels of building. The top question on my mind is... Can I fly this aircraft? I am 6'5" tall and 250 pounds. From what I've read, the weight should not pose a real problem in this aircraft, but how about my height? Can a tall fellow manipulate the controls, or will I feel like I'm crammed into a C-150 (or worse)? If I can find out that a person of my stature can indeed comfortably fly this type of craft, I will be leaning heavily in favor of this design. Perhaps the cockpit can be modified slightly by the builder to accommodate his stature? Thanks in advance for any information the group can offer, and I hope to get to know you all a little better in the near future. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230861#230861 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Newbie
Date: Feb 18, 2009
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
Height is not usually a problem. There is plenty of headroom. Legroom might be a bit more of a problem, but you can modify the design as need be to fit into it. I'm 200 lbs and 6'2" and I fit in mine just fine. Weight is more of an issue than you think, and with you and an equally heavy passenger, you will need a long runway. I suggest you try to find one locally and try it on for size, or better yet, go to Brodhead this summer for the annual Pietenpol Fly-In and try on several of them. No two are alike. You do realize this is not a "kitplane" don't you? It does go together pretty much like a big model airplane so you should have no problem building it. Where are you located, Mark? Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie I am in the very early stages of deciding which kit I would like to build and I have more than a few questions about the Pietenpol. I really like the style, and it seems like something that I would enjoy building. I've read several books on kit building and have also built scale R/C models for over 20 years... hopefully these skills will help as I proceed to the next levels of building. The top question on my mind is... Can I fly this aircraft? I am 6'5" tall and 250 pounds. From what I've read, the weight should not pose a real problem in this aircraft, but how about my height? Can a tall fellow manipulate the controls, or will I feel like I'm crammed into a C-150 (or worse)? If I can find out that a person of my stature can indeed comfortably fly this type of craft, I will be leaning heavily in favor of this design. Perhaps the cockpit can be modified slightly by the builder to accommodate his stature? Thanks in advance for any information the group can offer, and I hope to get to know you all a little better in the near future. -------- Mark _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 18, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie
Well,first off this isn't a kit.You have to build this plane from scatch of either wood or metal and yes you can modify it for your height and weight as you build.There are- wide designs and stretch designs.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_ _______________________________=0AFrom: K5YAC <k5yac(at)cox.net>=0ATo: pietenp ol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:10:36 PM=0ASub YAC" =0A=0AI am in the very early stages of deciding which k it I would like to build and I have more than a few questions about the Pie tenpol.- I really like the style, and it seems like something that I woul d enjoy building.- I've read several books on kit building and have also built scale R/C models for over 20 years... hopefully these skills will hel p as I proceed to the next levels of building.=0A=0AThe top question on my mind is... Can I fly this aircraft?- I am 6'5" tall and 250 pounds.- Fr om what I've read, the weight should not pose a real problem in this aircra ft, but how about my height?- Can a tall fellow manipulate the controls, or will I feel like I'm crammed into a C-150 (or worse)?- If I can find o ut that a person of my stature can indeed comfortably fly this type of craf t, I will be leaning heavily in favor of this design.- Perhaps the cockpi t can be modified slightly by the builder to accommodate his stature?- =0A=0AThanks in advance for any information the group can offer, and I hope to get to know you all a little better in the near future.=0A=0A-------- =0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matro -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newbie
From: "K5YAC" <k5yac(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 18, 2009
Thanks for the response Jack. Yes, I do understand that this is a scratch build. I think (hope) that I possess many of the skills required to take on a project of this sort. I guess I'll find out soon enough. Regardless, I'm sure I'll have questions since I've never done this before. My location? I am in Owasso, Oklahoma... just a few miles northeast of Tulsa. I suppose I could add that info to my signature. I recently joined EAA Chapter 10 at Gundy's airport, but I haven't had the opportunity to meet many of the members. I plan to attend our Saturday morning fly-in breakfast, where I will hopefully get to meet some of the crew. I'm sure they will be willing to help point me in the right direction. I hear ya on the long runway part. I don't plan to put adults up front too often. Maybe the wife once in a while, but this project is mostly for me and my 5 year old son. If I need to carry much more, I'll go rent a Cherokee. Hopefully that won't be necessary too often. I'll have to put Broadhead on the list. We sure would like to go to Air Venture... if we find a way to make it, perhaps we can plan to stop in. Honestly, if I'm serious about having a plane of my own, I should probably use the funds I would spend on that trip to purchase needed materials. Thanks again for the info! -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230869#230869 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: Newbie
Date: Feb 18, 2009
Hi Mark, I am 6'2" and was too cramped with the passenger cockpit in front... So I removed it, moved the panel forward about 3 or 4 inches, and moved the rudder bar forward... Now I have lots of room!!!! But, have to fly alone...... Cheers! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie I am in the very early stages of deciding which kit I would like to build and I have more than a few questions about the Pietenpol. I really like the style, and it seems like something that I would enjoy building. I've read several books on kit building and have also built scale R/C models for over 20 years... hopefully these skills will help as I proceed to the next levels of building. The top question on my mind is... Can I fly this aircraft? I am 6'5" tall and 250 pounds. From what I've read, the weight should not pose a real problem in this aircraft, but how about my height? Can a tall fellow manipulate the controls, or will I feel like I'm crammed into a C-150 (or worse)? If I can find out that a person of my stature can indeed comfortably fly this type of craft, I will be leaning heavily in favor of this design. Perhaps the cockpit can be modified slightly by the builder to accommodate his stature? Thanks in advance for any information the group can offer, and I hope to get to know you all a little better in the near future. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230861#230861 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dog67(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2009
Subject: Re: Brodhead International
Hey Steve - Nice stickers - I like the idea. If ya'll are going to Osh this year, and need a place to stop on the way - I moved to Denver and have room. Let me know Cheers jon apfelbaum In a message dated 2/9/2009 1:15:09 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, steve(at)byu.edu writes: All Pietenpolers! The snow and the gray skies has got me thinking about summer, and our 80th Anniversary plans. I am excited to make the trip to Brodhead and sit round the campfire and enjoy the misty mornings in the early light of day. Like the rest of you I=99m face with the challenge of arranging vacat ion, family and means to make the trip happen. I have three aims for this trip. 1) Teach my boys (Dallin, age 9, and Crandall, age 11) how to dream big and wo rk hard. 2) Show them the beauty of America =93 Low and Slow style. 3) teach them to give generously. While I=99m working on another round of baseball caps and an annivers ary patch, My boys and I came up with the idea they can help with. Crandall a nd Dallin, (with a little help from Dad) present the soon-to-be-famous =98Brodhead International=99 sticker! To honor EAA chapter 431 and give somethi ng back to our hosts who so kindly and graciously invite us back every year, we are donating $1 per order sold, to them. Here is the design. Size is 4x6 in Black and white. $5 each or 3 for $10 Shipping included. Send checks to: Crandall or Dallin Eldredge 2810 E Canyon Rd Spanish Fork, UT 84660 **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcnt usyelp00000003) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Newbie
Date: Feb 18, 2009
Mark, I'm 6'3" and 230# Cockpits not very roomy, but it's OK. Many have modified the fuse by widening it 2". Just keep in mind there are alot of other mods that go along with the widening. Deffinitely build the long fuse, not the short. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "K5YAC" <k5yac(at)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie > > I am in the very early stages of deciding which kit I would like to build > and I have more than a few questions about the Pietenpol. I really like > the style, and it seems like something that I would enjoy building. I've > read several books on kit building and have also built scale R/C models > for over 20 years... hopefully these skills will help as I proceed to the > next levels of building. > > The top question on my mind is... Can I fly this aircraft? I am 6'5" tall > and 250 pounds. From what I've read, the weight should not pose a real > problem in this aircraft, but how about my height? Can a tall fellow > manipulate the controls, or will I feel like I'm crammed into a C-150 (or > worse)? If I can find out that a person of my stature can indeed > comfortably fly this type of craft, I will be leaning heavily in favor of > this design. Perhaps the cockpit can be modified slightly by the builder > to accommodate his stature? > > Thanks in advance for any information the group can offer, and I hope to > get to know you all a little better in the near future. > > -------- > Mark > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230861#230861 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newbie
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2009
FYI Jim Markle is in Pryor OK and building his Piet a great guy and always welcomes another builder to chat with. If you get serious go visit Jim Just do tell him I said anything good about him John ------Original Message------ From: Phillips, Jack Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Feb 18, 2009 2:32 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Newbie Height is not usually a problem. There is plenty of headroom. Legroom might be a bit more of a problem, but you can modify the design as need be to fit into it. I'm 200 lbs and 6'2" and I fit in mine just fine. Weight is more of an issue than you think, and with you and an equally heavy passenger, you will need a long runway. I suggest you try to find one locally and try it on for size, or better yet, go to Brodhead this summer for the annual Pietenpol Fly-In and try on several of them. No two are alike. You do realize this is not a "kitplane" don't you? It does go together pretty much like a big model airplane so you should have no problem building it. Where are you located, Mark? Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie I am in the very early stages of deciding which kit I would like to build and I have more than a few questions about the Pietenpol. I really like the style, and it seems like something that I would enjoy building. I've read several books on kit building and have also built scale R/C models for over 20 years... hopefully these skills will help as I proceed to the next levels of building. The top question on my mind is... Can I fly this aircraft? I am 6'5" tall and 250 pounds. From what I've read, the weight should not pose a real problem in this aircraft, but how about my height? Can a tall fellow manipulate the controls, or will I feel like I'm crammed into a C-150 (or worse)? If I can find out that a person of my stature can indeed comfortably fly this type of craft, I will be leaning heavily in favor of this design. Perhaps the cockpit can be modified slightly by the builder to accommodate his stature? Thanks in advance for any information the group can offer, and I hope to get to know you all a little better in the near future. -------- Mark _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: pietn38b(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 18, 2009
Subject: Re: Newbie
Mark I live just north of you in Collinsville ande belong to Chapter 10 also. I keep my Piet at Sandridge airport and would be glad to show it to you and try it on. It is a Corvair powered, standard would fuselage. You can contact me at 371-9624 or 694-2069. Jim Ballew In a message dated 2/18/2009 2:09:42 P.M. Central Standard Time, k5yac(at)cox.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "K5YAC" Thanks for the response Jack. Yes, I do understand that this is a scratch build. I think (hope) that I possess many of the skills required to take on a project of this sort. I guess I'll find out soon enough. Regardless, I'm sure I'll have questions since I've never done this before. My location? I am in Owasso, Oklahoma... just a few miles northeast of Tulsa. I suppose I could add that info to my signature. I recently joined EAA Chapter 10 at Gundy's airport, but I haven't had the opportunity to meet many of the members. I plan to attend our Saturday morning fly-in breakfast, where I will hopefully get to meet some of the crew. I'm sure they will be willing to help point me in the right direction. I hear ya on the long runway part. I don't plan to put adults up front too often. Maybe the wife once in a while, but this project is mostly for me and my 5 year old son. If I need to carry much more, I'll go rent a Cherokee. Hopefully that won't be necessary too often. I'll have to put Broadhead on the list. We sure would like to go to Air Venture... if we find a way to make it, perhaps we can plan to stop in. Honestly, if I'm serious about having a plane of my own, I should probably use the funds I would spend on that trip to purchase needed materials. Thanks again for the info! -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230869#230869 **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tail surfaces
From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 18, 2009
The curvature gives a mild impression of an airfoil cross section. If you don't mind a slight increase in weight, you could thicken the leading and trailing edges to make the tailplane a flat plate with rounded edges and you wouldn't notice the difference in aerodynamic performance or behavior. (But actually every ounce counts - little things like pulling all the nails out of gussets after the adhesive cures do add up, or perhaps could more properly be said to subtract down.) It appears that shimming is desirable to make the areas under the fittings the same depth as the back face of the horizontal stabilizer's trailing edge. The plans indicate that the bottom of the vertical fin is straight all the way, skating off the top of the horizontal stabilizer to leave a gap over the curvature at the front. Just part of the charm of a Pietenpol Air Camper. [Wink] -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230993#230993 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie
In my case,the way-my plane was built it is only good for me.I am 5'4" on a good day.Nobody else can get in it and fly that is taller than me.Mine i s a GN-1 Aircamper which is kind of like a Pietenpol.=0A=0A=0Ado not archiv e=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "pietn38b(at)aol.com" =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, F ebruary 18, 2009 7:39:04 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie=0A=0A Mark=0A=0AI live just north of you in Collinsville ande belong to Chapter 1 0 also.- I keep my Piet at Sandridge airport and would be glad to show it to you and try it on.- It is a Corvair powered, standard would fuselage. - You can contact me at 371-9624 or 694-2069.- Jim Ballew=0A=0AIn a mes sage dated 2/18/2009 2:09:42 P.M. Central Standard Time, k5yac(at)cox.net writ anks for the response Jack.- Yes, I do understand that this is a scratch build.- I think (hope) that I possess many of the skills required to take on a project of this sort.- I guess I'll find out soon enough.- Regard less, I'm sure I'll have questions since I've never done this before.=0A=0A My location?- I am in Owasso, Oklahoma... just a few miles northeast of T ulsa.- I suppose I could add that info to my signature.- I recently joi ned EAA Chapter 10 at Gundy's airport, but I haven't had the opportunity to meet many of the members.- I plan to attend our Saturday morning fly-in breakfast, where I will hopefully get to meet some of the crew.- I'm sure they will be willing to help point me in the right direction.=0A=0AI hear ya on the long runway part.- I don't plan to put adults up front too ofte n.- Maybe the wife once in a while, but this project is mostly for me and my 5 year old son.- If I need to carry much more, I'll go rent a Cheroke e.- Hopefully that won't be necessary too often.- =0A=0AI'll have to pu t Broadhead on the list.- We sure would like to go to Air Venture... if w e find a way to make it, perhaps we can plan to stop in.- Honestly, if I' m serious about having a plane of my own, I should probably use the funds I would spend on that trip to purchase needed materials.- =0A=0AThanks aga in for the info!=0A=0A--------=0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230869#230869 =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AA 100126575x1218822736x12012 67884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3 Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tail surfaces
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Since I am in the thick of the tailfeathers right now I'll add my experience with them. The pieces where the hinges attach are 1" x 1" before you rabbet out the profile shown on the plans. If you made it all flat, I would not recommend making anything thinner than on the plans. That means that the LE and TE would all have to be 1" x 1". TE piece is only 5/8" on plans which means that you would be adding 3/8" to it's thickness. I think it would look awful and be heavier in a place where weight is the last thing you would want to add. I found a method that is pretty easy to work with, follows the plans and looks very nice as well (at least it does to me). This shows how I started the stabilizer... http://www.flyingwood.com/index.asp?page=6&filter=0 I did the rabbets with a router on the stabilizer but found a tablesaw much easier when I did the elevators which are shown here.... http://www.flyingwood.com/index.asp?page=3&filter=0 I just think you would regret the weight penalty and appearance if you went with the 1" x 1" dimension all around. My $0.02 -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231023#231023 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Another Question on Empennage..
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
I have the members for the rudder and vertical stabilizer layed out on the jig with their ultimate positions marked out. One thing I was wondering about is as follows.. The dimensions on the plans show the dimensions for the rudder height and fin height as if they butted up flush against each other. Has anyone found that, with the gap due to hinges, that their rudder extends below the bottom of the fuselage? If you project the angle of the top of the rudder to where the curvature begins on the fin, it would make you have to lower the rudder a bit (1/2" - 3/4")? In that case I would rather just make the rudder a little shorter. Thanks -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231027#231027 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Glenn, Yes, my rudder ended up that much longer (below) my fuselage. Does not look good. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Thomas <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> Sent: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 7:48 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Question on Empennage.. I have the members for the rudder and vertical stabilizer layed out on the jig with their ultimate positions marked out. One thing I was wondering about is as follows.. The dimensions on the plans show the dimensions for the rudder height and fin height as if they butted up flush against each other. Has anyone found that, with the gap due to hinges, that their rudder extends below the bottom of the fuselage? If you project the angle of the top of the rudder to where the curvature begins on the fin, it would make you have to lower the rudder a bit (1/2" - 3/4")? In that case I would rather just make the rudder a little shorter. Thanks -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231027#231027 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
I made my rudder and fin about 3 inches taller than the plans, after hearing an old Piet flyer say that he had a problem losing rudder authority on flare due to his body blanking out the rudder in high angle of attack situations. When I laid out my jig I extended the dimensions as needed, allowed for the 1 inch thickness of the stab, and the dimension of the tailpost, along with the hinge gap, so that it all came out looking pretty good when mounted. All of my other stock dimensions for the wood parts are to the plans. Ben Charvet second wing covered, stitched, and only needing perimeter tapes before painting. Glenn Thomas wrote: > > I have the members for the rudder and vertical stabilizer layed out on the jig with their ultimate positions marked out. One thing I was wondering about is as follows.. The dimensions on the plans show the dimensions for the rudder height and fin height as if they butted up flush against each other. Has anyone found that, with the gap due to hinges, that their rudder extends below the bottom of the fuselage? If you project the angle of the top of the rudder to where the curvature begins on the fin, it would make you have to lower the rudder a bit (1/2" - 3/4")? In that case I would rather just make the rudder a little shorter. > > Thanks > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231027#231027 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Subject: Oklahoma Piets
You could also go see aviation guru/historian, nice guy Chet Peek in Norman, OK who is well along building his Model A Ford Piet. Mark--If you do build a Pietenpol make sure to build the long version--the 1966 fuselage, otherwise you'll never fit. The earlier fuselages are approximately 9.5" shorter in over all length and leg room and bifocal room is compromised. Also-- consider using an 0-200 to get you safely out of airports on hot days where you have tall trees at the end. Also--consider making the wing longer for more lift because with your weight you'll need it. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Another Question on Empennage..
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
I was looking for pictures of mine. As I recall, I made my rudder and fin exactly to the plans, but then I cut off the bottom corner of the ruddderand made it a flat in line with the bottom of the fuselage. I wasn't worried about looks as much as I was concerned about the tailwheel hitting something and bouncing into the rudder. Here is a photo taken last summer as I was leaving Brodhead that shows the bottom of the rudder. You can see that I just basically ground a flat on the point at the bottom: Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Another Question on Empennage.. Glenn, Yes, my rudder ended up that much longer (below) my fuselage. Does not look good. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Thomas <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> Sent: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 7:48 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another Question on Empennage.. glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com> I have the members for the rudder and vertical stabilizer layed out on the jig with their ultimate positions marked out. One thing I was wondering about is as follows.. The dimensions on the plans show the dimensions for the rudder height and fin height as if they butted up flush against each other. Has anyone found that, with the gap due to hinges, that their rudder extends below the bottom of the fuselage? If you project the angle of the top of the rudder to where the curvature begins on the fin, it would make you have to lower the rudder a bit (1/2" - 3/4")? In that case I would rather just make the rudder a little shorter. Thanks -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231027#231027 _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Dan/Jack, I think it's all because the plans don't account for the hinge gap, thanks for confirming my suspicion. I'll probably plan for a 5/8" hinge gap and recalculate the rudder height. I doubt it shows under the stabilizer and elevators and when you're far enough away to see it, you don't. Ben, Sounds like you are 6+ feet tall. Is that the case? I was just planning on making mine standard size, but then I'm just average height (5' 10"). I've heard that tall guy's torso's out in the slipstream interferes with the rudder effectiveness. Anybody my size have a problem with the standard rudder? Thanks to all for ideas and comments. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231085#231085 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
From: "K5YAC" <k5yac(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Thanks for the info Mike. I've received several replies to my initial post. I sure do appreciate the warm welcome, and the genuine nature of all who have responded here and via e-mail. I've had my nose buried in several different articles and threads. Sure are a lot of these ol birds out there. Good to know. A few of the folks that have responded are locals that have invited me to come visit and see their plane or project. There are at least 3 completed and 3 more under construction in my local area that I've learned of since yesterday. Jim Ballew is just a few miles north of my location. I spoke to him briefly on the phone earlier today, and I plan to go visit with him tomorrow evening. Really looking forward to that. Here are a few more questions for anyone who wants to chime in. Maybe I'll come across the answer to these questions as I continue to read, but right now I'm unclear... You mention the O-200 engine. How about the Corvair? I've been reading about those, and from what I gather they are powerful and reliable. This would be a suitable substitute for the O-200, right? What about spruce kits? At this point I really don't know where to get good quality wood locally (I'll probably learn as I visit more), but I've also read about pre-cut spruce kits that are available for this planform. I would be interested in the time savings that a high quality pre-cut wood kit might offer. I spoke to a Canadian company that wants $2500 for the wing, fuse and empannage... worth the money? Thanks again! -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231090#231090 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height
Mark, Definitely try on a long fuze for size. I am under 6'2" but have disprportiately long legs. A long fuze is still too short for me, but it works after I opened up the shin holes into the front cockpit. Also, you must be concerned about your knees hitting the bottom edge of the instrument panel. Note the details on the one you try on. Tim in central TX > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230869#230869 > > >________________________________ >A 100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
>>What about spruce kits? worth the money? >>Mark Mark: I purchased my spruce kit from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co http://www. aircraftspruce.com/ and was very satisfied. I say this knowing that you will soon get some responses that are the opposite of this. The "kit" is just pre-cut spruce in several sizes which you still have to route or dado, etc. to make your parts. No plywood or wing rib cap strip material is included so you have to plan for those separately. You will also need additional spruce to make the fuse side standoffs as well as replace the parts you screw up. (voice of experience) I'm sure that the price has gone up by now but my kit was right around $1,000. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Tim, Good point, I'm 6'3" and fit alright. You reminded me that I had to open the height of the leg holes for my shins. But I made the seat per plans and how much of me sticks out on top seems to be alright. The front seat is quite a bit higher See this vid. Me in back> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLrIDeDLR48 walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Willis" <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height > > > > Mark, > > Definitely try on a long fuze for size. I am under 6'2" but have > disprportiately long legs. A long fuze is still too short for me, but it > works after I opened up the shin holes into the front cockpit. Also, you > must be concerned about your knees hitting the bottom edge of the > instrument panel. Note the details on the one you try on. > > Tim in central TX > >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230869#230869 >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >>A >>100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> >>See yours in just 2======================= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Newby-spruce
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Hi Mark, I would recommend buying the "bargain bag of spruce" from Aircraft Spruce if you have a good table saw. There are many good usable pieces that you can cut down to fit your needs. When I bought the price was only $12.00. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott Knowlton " <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Subject: Re: Newby-spruce
I just picked a bargain bag up at our Aircraft Spruce in Brantford Ontario on Bill Churches suggestion. It was $48 Canadian but it was huge! 5 feet long with 6 boards each 6 x 1 inch. Other than the three long pieces of the horizontal stab you have enough wood to make the entire empenage with a bunch leftover. Scott Knowlton -----Original Message----- From: helspersew(at)aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:00:55 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newby-spruce Hi Mark, I would recommend buying the "bargain bag of spruce" from Aircraft Spruce if you have a good table saw. There are many good usable pieces that you can cut down to fit your needs. When I bought the price was only $12.00. Dan Helsper ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Mark, The Corvair is an excellent substitute for the O-200. Check out William Wynne's website for more information than you ever wanted to know about "Corvaircraft" engines: http://www.flycorvair.com/corvair.html Ryan On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 1:35 PM, K5YAC wrote: > > You mention the O-200 engine. How about the Corvair? I've been reading > about those, and from what I gather they are powerful and reliable. This > would be a suitable substitute for the O-200, right? > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
Mark, the Corvair is a good alternative to the 0-200.- Supposidly it has a bit more HP than an 0-200 (as per William Wynne's elaborate testing on a Dynomometer), as far as torque ratings between the two I am not sure.- Ta ke a look at his web site flycorvair.com .- You can build a Corvair for l ess money granted you don't have a real good inexpensive lead to an 0-200. - Both are good choices, but there will be some more tinkering with the c orvair initially.- After you get the corvair set up, just change the plug s every 100-200 hrs or so and change the oil.- Parts are much cheaper for the Corvair also.- There are some very important things to watch out for if you build a corvair.- Contact me off list if you like and I can go in to greater detail, that way I dont clog everyones inbox with info they don' t need or want. - Shad Bell aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com ps we have been flying a Corvair for 3 years and have about 170hrs on it no w=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 19, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height
When you get to the wing you will have to make a dicision there as well as to whether or not you are going to cut a piece out of the wing or as in my case I cut a flip door with hinges.I have the three piece wing set up so it was easy for me to modify it.Before modification I had to do the Limbo to get into my aircraft.You may or may not need a step to get in as well.I of course needed one being a short ass.Enjoy and up date us often on your buil d.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: walt <waltdak@ver izon.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 3:50:35 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height =0ATim,=0AGood point, I'm 6'3" and fit alright.- You reminded me that I h ad to open the height of the leg holes for my shins. But I made the seat pe r plans and how much of me sticks out on top seems to be alright.=0AThe fro nt seat is quite a bit higher=0ASee this vid. Me in back>=0Ahttp://www.yout ube.com/watch?v=CLrIDeDLR48=0Awalt evans=0ANX140DL=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Willis" <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>=0ATo: <piet enpol-list(at)matronics.com>=0ASent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:39 PM=0ASub ject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height=0A=0A=0A> --> Pietenpo l-List message posted by: Tim Willis =0A> =0A> =0A> Mark,=0A> =0A> Definitely try on a long fuze for size.- I am under 6'2" but have disprportiately long legs.- A long fuze is still too short for me, but it works after I opened up the shin holes into the front cockpi t.- Also, you must be concerned about your knees hitting the bottom edge of the instrument panel.- Note the details on the one you try on.=0A> =0A > Tim in central TX=0A> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>> =0A>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230869#230869=0A>> =0A >> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> ________________________________=0A>> A 100126575x1218 822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fde fault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62"> See you rs in just 2===================== - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, L ======= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re Piet Dihedral
From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
ktmaustin(at)sbcglobal.ne wrote: > Hi Bill, > I guess that was a bit cryptic. > The one piece wing implies no dihedral. > This doesn't add up to much stability in the roll axis. > You don't really notice it but if you look down at the stick while you're flying it is pretty much constantly moving. > My friend that grew up on Cub's termed it 'the butter churn'. > Taking the dihedral out of a plane does seem to make it faster. > Kevin > > One of my Dad's friends took all the dihedral and washout out of the wings of a Piper Tri-Pacer. It was good for about a 3 to 4 mph increase in cruise speed and the handling characteristics were not seriously affected. (There was still some dihedral effect because of the enclosed cabin.) -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231155#231155 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
Thought I'd start a little fire, then throw some gasoline on it: Put a V-tail on a Pietenpol and the size of the pilot would have no effect on the effectiveness of the tail surfaces. :D -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231161#231161 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Feb 19, 2009
I think this will work... I am making the rudder 1/2" shorter than plans. If I still end up too long I'll do what Jack did. If I come up too short, I can make up the amount with a small strip of spruce and some glue. I think it will come out pretty close though. Thanks for the ideas. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231179#231179 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 20, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Eko Seal -V- other poly's
Stewart 's Eko Seal is a water based- (borne) polyurethane. I see Minwax also has water based poly's as well. Anyone know what the difference is, if any? For the price and convenience, I am ready to pick up some Minwax rath er then order the Stewart's. If this is a big mistake and will lead to issu es later, I would like to know now, rather then later. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "GR Hewitt" <grhewitt(at)globaldial.com>
Subject: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 21, 2009
The dimensions for the various parts which the rudder attaches to do not add up If you build the fin & fuse according to the plans, then the rudder will hang down below the bottom of the fuse by around 11/2 inches. Suggest to build the fuse then the fin & then the tail plane , sit the tail plane on top of the fuse, (allow a bit for fabric& any packing) next fit the fin on top of the tail plane, then build the rudder to fit the total distance, I learned this the hard way. Am close to rigging & making lift struts, in order to get the wing exactly at right angles to the fuse C/L, any merit in adjusting the diagonal brace cables in the struts? Am worried that this may put a twist in the wing Or do I have to make a slight adjustment to the diagonal drag struts on the Center Section; I realize that only a very slight adjustment of the drag struts would have a dramatic effect on the wing symmetry. My drags are not adjustable at this stage & are only temporary until I check the Cof G Thanks Graham Hewitt ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Happy Birthday Jim! -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231247#231247 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roy Brooks <n900ml(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Three cheers for Jim... (Aw shucks=2C make it 4 cheers!) He loaned me his Kevlar cutting scissors long ago and I could have run off to Mexico with th em but he is a trusting soul and a good guy despite having abandoned our st ate of Texas=2C in order to become an OKIE. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle > From: glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com > Date: Fri=2C 20 Feb 2009 11:57:20 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > ood.com> > > Happy Birthday Jim! > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231247#231247 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Somebody said it was Jim's birthday.maybe a cruel and vicious rumor.Happy Birthday, Jim! With another year passing I'll bet that you'll have that Piet done any day now. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roy Brooks Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle Three cheers for Jim... (Aw shucks, make it 4 cheers!) He loaned me his Kevlar cutting scissors long ago and I could have run off to Mexico with them but he is a trusting soul and a good guy despite having abandoned our state of Texas, in order to become an OKIE. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle > From: glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:57:20 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > Happy Birthday Jim! > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231247#231247 > > > > > <===================== >================ > > > _____ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newbie -- Pilot height
From: "K5YAC" <k5yac(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Thanks for the info. I will keep this stuff in mind while I plan my build. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231275#231275 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
From: "K5YAC" <k5yac(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 20, 2009
FedEx dropped off my Tony Bingelis book set tonight, and I placed an order for William Wynne's "Corvair Conversion" last night. Should have plenty of reading material to help me along the way. I think I'll go ahead an order the plans tonight so I can start studying them as well. I got to talk to William Wynne for a bit on the phone last night, and I also got to visit with Jim Ballew in Collinsville today. I'm having fun already. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231280#231280 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
Mark, Glad to hear it, the fun has just begun. Just wait till you meet Markle! John In a message dated 2/20/2009 7:56:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, k5yac(at)cox.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "K5YAC" FedEx dropped off my Tony Bingelis book set tonight, and I placed an order for William Wynne's "Corvair Conversion" last night. Should have plenty of reading material to help me along the way. I think I'll go ahead an order the plans tonight so I can start studying them as well. I got to talk to William Wynne for a bit on the phone last night, and I also got to visit with Jim Ballew in Collinsville today. I'm having fun already. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231280#231280 **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 20, 2009
I have made mine to the F+G manual and this is the result; Also there was discussion on flops. This is mine. It will be clear plexi top and bottom. Easy strong arm airbrake too! :-) Clif The dimensions for the various parts which the rudder attaches to do not add up If you build the fin & fuse according to the plans, then the rudder will hang down below the bottom of the fuse by around 11/2 inches. Thanks Graham Hewitt ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/20/09 19:22:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
From: "carson" <carsonvella(at)yahoo.com.au>
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Funny this has come up as I have just finished fitting the tail and have been trying to find where I have measured wrong this time. My rudder hungs down about 1/2 inch so I think I will cut it off to be level with the bottom of the fuse. Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231307#231307 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton, Jr." <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
Date: Feb 20, 2009
Yes, Happy Birthday Jim! Go flying! Rob Stapleton, Photojournalist Anchorage, Alaska 907-230-9425 KL2AN Skype:rob.stapleton.jr IM Windows Live Messenger: foto(at)alaska.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle Somebody said it was Jim's birthday.maybe a cruel and vicious rumor.Happy Birthday, Jim! With another year passing I'll bet that you'll have that Piet done any day now. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roy Brooks Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle Three cheers for Jim... (Aw shucks, make it 4 cheers!) He loaned me his Kevlar cutting scissors long ago and I could have run off to Mexico with them but he is a trusting soul and a good guy despite having abandoned our state of Texas, in order to become an OKIE. > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle > From: glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:57:20 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > Happy Birthday Jim! > > -------- > Glenn Thomas > N????? > http://www.flyingwood.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231247#231247 > > > > > <===================== >================ > > > _____ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_0220 09> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Cliff, I like all your woodwork details; lightening holes, fairings and tapers etc. Very nice work you should be proud of. Everything obviously well thought out. Nice job. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. NX929DH -----Original Message----- From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> Sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:03 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions I have made mine to the F+G manual and this is the result; ? Also there was discussion on flops. This is mine. It will be clear plexi top and bottom. ? Easy strong arm airbrake too!? :-) ? Clif The dimensions for the various parts which the rudder attaches to do not add up If you build the fin & fuse according to the plans, then the rudder will hang down below the bottom of the fuse by around 11/2 inches. ? Thanks Graham Hewitt href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - Release Date: 02/20/09 19:22:00 [Image Removed] [Image Removed] [Image Removed] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpols around the world report
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Hello all, I just reviewed an old email from October that I received from Santiago Morete in Santa Rosa Argentina. As you might remember he was lucky enough to be able to come up here and visit with us?at Brodhead and OSH last year. He reports that Pietenpols are becoming more popular down there and as many as 15 are under construction as we speak. One of these fellows saw his wing hanging in the club hangar at their airport and contacted him. They got together at Santiago's workshop to observe and discuss the fuselage construction. They are both going to use the Model A. Santaigo says these engines are plentiful down there. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. NX929DH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Oklahoma Piets
Date: Feb 21, 2009
Sounds like you're doing all the right steps, Mark. Enjoy the process, and the Pietenpol community. You won't find a better bunch of folks than Pietenpol folks. As much as I enjoyed building and now enjoy flying my Pietenpol, the best part of the process has been the friends that I've met through this wonderful airplane. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:54 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Oklahoma Piets FedEx dropped off my Tony Bingelis book set tonight, and I placed an order for William Wynne's "Corvair Conversion" last night. Should have plenty of reading material to help me along the way. I think I'll go ahead an order the plans tonight so I can start studying them as well. I got to talk to William Wynne for a bit on the phone last night, and I also got to visit with Jim Ballew in Collinsville today. I'm having fun already. -------- Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231280#231280 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
love the foliage in the background, nice touch, not to mention a beautiful aircraft!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Clif Dawso n =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:03:08 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimens ions=0A=0A=0AI have made mine to the F+G manual and this is the result;=0A -=0AAlso there was discussion on flops. This is mine. It will be=0Aclear plexi top and bottom.=0A-=0AEasy strong arm airbrake too!- :-)=0A-=0A Clif=0A=0A=0AThe dimensions for the various parts which the rudder attaches to do not add up=0AIf you build the fin & fuse according to the plans, the n the rudder will hang down below the bottom of the fuse by around 11/2 inc hes.=0A-=0AThanks Graham Hewitt=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref ="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=0A=0A ________________________________=0A- Release Date: 02/20/09 19:22:00=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Birthday?
Jim- - OK, how did everybody on the Piet list know that it was your birthday excep t ME? - I say,"Skip the cake & ice cream and finish the Piet!". - Don't let another year go by without your airplane being in the air. Just d o it! - Our little airport is having a fabric & tailwheel fly-in the second weekend in June and I'd be happy to play host to any of the Pietenpol fraternity. It isn't that far for you and I'd like to see you again. Let me know......a nd pass the word. - Happy Birthday, kid. - Larry=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Birthday?
Date: Feb 21, 2009
Ok you guys!!! Enough already! You're embarassing me! But thanks for all the nice thoughts. A couple of you knucklheads are going to hear from me offline!!! :-) It's a bit chilly in Northeastern Oklahoma today but I think I'll go put some wood in the stove and get my shop warming up...this would be a good day to work on a Model A engine mount! One more thing. These recent paint/latex/stitts/etc discussions? Great! Thanks for all the good advice. That thread was very helpful. Cheers to all.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Williams To: Jim Markle ; Pietlist Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:20 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birthday? Jim- OK, how did everybody on the Piet list know that it was your birthday except ME? I say,"Skip the cake & ice cream and finish the Piet!". Don't let another year go by without your airplane being in the air. Just do it! Our little airport is having a fabric & tailwheel fly-in the second weekend in June and I'd be happy to play host to any of the Pietenpol fraternity. It isn't that far for you and I'd like to see you again. Let me know......and pass the word. Happy Birthday, kid. Larry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roy Brooks <n900ml(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Birthday?
Date: Feb 21, 2009
Jim not only moved from our beloved TEXAS to Oklahoma=2C dainged if he didn 't move to NORTH EAST OkiHoma. That makes him a Yankee=2C right up there w ith Mike in Ohio. (Ohio=2C Oklahoma... same thing) From: jim_markle(at)mindspring.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birthday? Date: Sat=2C 21 Feb 2009 10:13:16 -0600 Ok you guys!!! Enough already! You're embarassing me! But thanks for all the nice thoughts. A couple of you knucklheads are going to hear from me offline!!! :-) It's a bit chilly in Northeastern Oklahoma today but I think I'll go put some wood in the stove and get my shop warming up.. .this would be a good day to work on a Model A engine mount! One more thing. These recent paint/latex/stitts/etc discussions? Great! Thanks for all the good advice. That thread was very helpful. Cheers to all.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Williams To: Jim Markle =3B Pietlist Sent: Saturday=2C February 21=2C 2009 9:20 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Birthday? Jim- OK=2C how did everybody on the Piet list know that it was your birthday except ME? I say=2C"Skip the cake & ice cream and finish the Piet!". Don't let another year go by without your airplane being in the air. Just do it! Our little airport is having a fabric & tailwheel fly-in the second weekend in June and I'd be happy to play host to any of the Pietenpol fraternity. It isn't that far for you and I'd like to see you again. Let me know......and pass the word. Happy Birthday=2C kid. Larry href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5 50F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: airplane building and mental hospitals-- YES!
From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 21, 2009
Ah, I see - from the public's point of view, "certifiable" applies to the person, not the airplane. :D -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231390#231390 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Another Question on Empennage..
I have my vert. stab. built and had my rudder 90% done when I realized I did not incorporate a modification I wanted. I can't make it work as is, so I decided to start over. Good news is, this post shows up and I have now decided to wait until the fuse. is done and make the rudder to fit. (A blessing in disguise, if you will.) I am now varnishing my right wing instead. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Birthday?
If they are Yankees then what in the heck are we up here in Ottawa Canada;l eaving myself wide open here-but I just got to know?=0A=0A=0Ado not archi ve=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Roy Brooks <n900m l(at)hotmail.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Saturday, Februar y 21, 2009 12:38:23 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Birthday?=0A=0AJim no t only moved from our beloved TEXAS to Oklahoma, dainged if he didn't move to NORTH- EAST OkiHoma. That makes him a Yankee, right up there with Mike in Ohio.-- (Ohio, Oklahoma... same thing)=0A=0A_______________________ _________=0AFrom: jim_markle(at)mindspring.com=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics. com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Birthday?=0ADate: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:13 - But thanks for all the nice thoughts.=0A-=0AA couple of you knucklhea ds are going to hear from me offline!!!- :-)=0A-=0AIt's a bit chilly in Northeastern Oklahoma today but I think I'll go put some wood in the stove and get my shop warming up...this would be a good day to work on a Model A -engine mount!=0A-=0AOne more thing.- These recent paint/latex/stitts /etc discussions?- Great!- Thanks for all the good advice.- That thre ad was very helpful.=0A-=0ACheers to all....=0A-=0A-=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Lawrence Williams =0ATo: Jim Markle ; Pietlist =0AS ent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:20 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Birthda y?=0A=0AJim-=0A=0AOK, how did everybody on the Piet list know that it was y our birthday except ME?=0A=0AI say,"Skip the cake & ice cream and finish th e Piet!".=0A=0ADon't let another year go by without your airplane being in the air. Just do it!=0A=0AOur little airport is having a fabric & tailwheel fly-in the second weekend in June and I'd be happy to play host to any of the Pietenpol fraternity. It isn't that far for you and I'd like to see you again. Let me know......and pass the word.=0A=0AHappy Birthday, kid.=0A=0A Larry =0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahref="http://forums .matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics. com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=0A=0A<="http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronicshref="http://www.matro nics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con======== ==========0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AWind ows Live=99: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. View post. =0A -======================== ================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 21, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: airplane building and mental hospitals
I've noticed that all I have to say is that I am going to make a modification the the original plans and KA-POW! Now I'm a nut! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
Date: Feb 21, 2009
The funny thing is=2C Jim was transferred to the mental hospital from a chi cken farm=2C and the chickens all thought he was kinda "different" too! An d rumor has it that he fattened up his chickens by mixing beer with their m ash. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
Date: Feb 21, 2009
It was this farm wasn't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kupxQIz7Amo&feature=related Subject: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday Jim Markle The funny thing is, Jim was transferred to the mental hospital from a chicken farm, and the chickens all thought he was kinda "different" too! Oscar Zuniga ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: airplane building and mental hospitals
From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Amsafetyc wrote: > The best I have gotten so far has been from one of my plant managers. A Jamaican man at our City of Industry plant who asked " do you have some sort of a death wish, mon?". All the rest have been rather subdued, you're building an airplane? Yes I am, oh that's nice, what kind? A Pietenpol, ohhhhh, what's that one of them radio model things? No, its a 2 place open cockpit aircraft, oh that's nice.....where are you building it? In my basement, a real airplane in your basement...... how are you going to get it out? I am gonna fly it out, oh I see, huh? > > Makes for interesting conversation especially the facial expressions that all result in the, this guy is some kind of a nut. > > I suppose! > > John > --- Truly entertaining facial expressions were seen when people would ask my Dad where he was building his Tailwind and get the matter-of-fact reply, "In the basement of my funeral home." -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231496#231496 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: MILESTONE!!!
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Subject: my favorite two questions about the Pietenpol at fly-in's
"so this is an ultralight, right ?" --or equally as frustrating-- "you don't need a pilot license to fly this do you ?" ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: MILESTONE!!!
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Jim Nice look, wanna make another? Its amazing what can be accomplished when you pick up t he tools and make them go to work John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:46:17 Subject: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: my favorite two questions about the Pietenpol at fly-in's
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2009
One you can fly? By yourself? Let me know when the maiden voyage is. We want to see that one, maybe shoot some video might as well take advantage of the event or outcome. That came from my buddies I worked with in the tv and production business, always interested in some great B role. John ------Original Message------ From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Feb 22, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: my favorite two questions about the Pietenpol at fly-in's "so this is an ultralight, right ?" --or equally as frustrating-- "you don't need a pilot license to fly this do you ?" Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Subject: Re: MILESTONE!!!
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: > Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat > piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! > > jm > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Javier Cruz" <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Jim Markle
Date: Feb 22, 2009
of course that Jim should be insane, building a plane from 1930 and a very old engine is not normal...:) Congrats from Mexico.Mr Markle. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: NX1EE
Pieters, I reserved this N number some time ago. Paperwork that allows us to display it finally came in this week. Imagine announcing with this number in the pattern. Pretty cool, huh? The sticky letters are temporary. We're open to suggestions about fun ways to display it. Giant "EE" on the tail? Wing? Fuselage? Have a good week, Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Don't think the plans called for 1/8",,,,,1/16" I think (or less). Stick to the plans walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: building and flying
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Sometimes when I see pictures of different peoples' projects I get a bit sad or I feel like I've cut into the line and not paid my dues to get in to the world of Pietenpols. I bought my Piet already complete and flying and although I've done plenty of rebuild and modification to it=2C I know I'm not the original builder and I can't really swagger in to Brodhead like the rest of you 100% scratch builders. I really admire all the excellent work that you folks do on your airplanes and I know it brings you a great deal of satisfaction. Just going out to the airport every weekend and working at maintaining and tweaking my Piet gives me more satisfaction than almost anything else I do all week long at my job and at home. These last few weekends I've been working on squawks that came up during annual condition inspection and it's more fun working on those than anything I can think of at work or at home. Redoing AN hardware to get it just a bit more correct=2C retensioning conrol cables and safetying turnbuckles=2C adjusting tracking on the prop=2C cleaning plugs=2C scratching my head on how to run a new tach cable without removing this cowling or that one=2C lubing pulleys and pivots=2C you name it. It's really too bad we can't get paid for working on our airplanes=2C isn't it? We'd be millionaires and all they'd have to pay us is a few bucks and we'd be happy! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: building and flying
>...I know I'm not the original >builder and I can't really swagger in to Brodhead like the rest >of you 100% scratch builders. Oscar, If you fly up from Texas and I fly up from Georgia, I think we'll both be allowed to swagger. 'Course, that's just cuz our butts are gonna be hurtin' so much! =-O Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Gary Gower in Mexico
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Has anyone heard from Gary Gower in Guadalajara=2C Mexico? He was supposed to be working on coming up with new cast valve covers for Corvaircampers. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: building and flying
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Oscar Built or bought, they are just as much fun to fly. Please don't suggest any dollar value on the satisfaction of flying your Piet, some idiot will want to find a way to tax the perceived value. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Oscar Zuniga To: Pietenpol List Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:08 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: building and flying Sometimes when I see pictures of different peoples' projects I get a bit sad or I feel like I've cut into the line and not paid my dues to get in to the world of Pietenpols. I bought my Piet already complete and flying and although I've done plenty of rebuild and modification to it, I know I'm not the original builder and I can't really swagger in to Brodhead like the rest of you 100% scratch builders. I really admire all the excellent work that you folks do on your airplanes and I know it brings you a great deal of satisfaction. Just going out to the airport every weekend and working at maintaining and tweaking my Piet gives me more satisfaction than almost anything else I do all week long at my job and at home. These last few weekends I've been working on squawks that came up during annual condition inspection and it's more fun working on those than anything I can think of at work or at home. Redoing AN hardware to get it just a bit more correct, retensioning conrol cables and safetying turnbuckles, adjusting tracking on the prop, cleaning plugs, scratching my head on how to run a new tach cable without removing this cowling or that one, lubing pulleys and pivots, you name it. It's really too bad we can't get paid for working on our airplanes, isn't it? We'd be millionaires and all they'd have to pay us is a few bucks and we'd be happy! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Patrick Panzera" <Panzera@experimental-aviation.com>
Subject: building and flying
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Sometimes when I see pictures of different peoples' projects I get a bit sad or I feel like I've cut into the line and not paid my dues to get in to the world of Pietenpols. I bought my Piet already complete and flying and although I've done plenty of rebuild and modification to it, I know I'm not the original builder and I can't really swagger in to Brodhead like the rest of you 100% scratch builders. Oscar, You are the caretaker of another man's work, and doing one great job of it. If my opinion counts at all, I say swagger all you want. Pat ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Gary Gower in Mexico
Check this out It is awesome. A 3D scanner that will scan a part and then reproduce it in plastic so that a machineist can use to make a part from. or it can be used to make a casting. Click on the Jay Leno's Garage link. https://www.nextengine.com/indexSecure.htm Blue Skies Steve D A lurker with a Non homebuilt. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2009
From: Doug Bowman <airbowman48(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MILESTONE!!!
New to the list and just starting to build ribs. Noticed the bare edges of the aluminum and when we built an RV it was imperative to put some kind of protection on that kind of an edge. It could really open up your scalp if your head came forward. Doug --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Jim Markle wrote: > From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:46 AM > Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this > morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process > is FUN! > > jm ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 23, 2009
You'll never bend 1/8"..... use 1/16"....... Dave Santa Maria, Airport -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:21 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.c omhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: Mid-Wing Pietenpol
Date: Feb 23, 2009
I have a question gents! I have seen the "Biplane Piet, Mono-wing Piet,but.... has anyone ever seen a Mid-Wing Piet???? Also has anyone shortened the cabanes for a more "sporty" look...... (20 1/4 and 21 1/4" stock height) I know many people have made them longer for easier access to the cockpit..... (spent an hour making shims for the elev. bellcrank.... looked at the plans and saw I had it on the worng side of the vert. brace....DAMM!!!!!) Cheers! Dave In Drizzley Ca. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of amsafetyc(at)aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:04 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Jim Nice look, wanna make another? Its amazing what can be accomplished when you pick up the tools and make them go to work John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: "Jim Markle" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:46:17 -0600 To: Subject: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm ~r ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2009
Subject: Re: Mid-Wing Pietenpol
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
To make it look real sporty you could shorten the cabanes to a couple inche s and make two big holes the the center section for your heads to stick through ;) And I came very close to putting the elevator bellcrank on the wrong side o f the vertical also. Rick On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Dave Abramson wrote: > I have a question gents! > > I have seen the "Biplane Piet, Mono-wing Piet,but.... has anyone ever se en > a Mid-Wing Piet???? > > Also has anyone shortened the cabanes for a more "sporty" look...... (20 > 1/4 and 21 1/4" stock height) I know many people have made them longer f or > easier access to the cockpit..... > > (spent an hour making shims for the elev. bellcrank.... looked at the > plans and saw I had it on the worng side of the vert. brace....DAMM!!!!!) > > Cheers! > > Dave In Drizzley Ca. > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *amsafetyc(at)aol.co m > *Sent:* Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:04 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! > > Jim > > Nice look, wanna make another? > > Its amazing what can be accomplished when you pick up the tools and make > them go to work > > John > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ------------------------------ > *From*: "Jim Markle" > *To*: > *Subject*: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! > > Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat > piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! > > jm > ~=B2 r > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Mid-Wing Pietenpol
you could always put on retractible landing gear as well;0=0A=0A=0Ado not a rchive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Rick Holland =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, Feb ruary 23, 2009 12:38:50 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Mid-Wing Pietenpo l=0A=0ATo make it look real sporty you could shorten the cabanes to a coupl e inches and make two big holes the the center section for your heads to st ick through ;)=0A=0AAnd I came very close to putting the elevator bellcrank on the wrong side of the vertical also.=0A=0ARick=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Dave Abramson wrote:=0A=0AI h ave a question gents!=0A-=0AI have seen the "Biplane Piet, Mono-wing Piet ,but....- has anyone ever seen a Mid-Wing Piet????=0A-=0AAlso has anyon e shortened the cabanes for a more "sporty" look......- (20 1/4 and 21 1/ 4" stock height)- I know many people have made them longer for easier acc ess to the cockpit.....=0A-=0A(spent an hour making shims for the elev. b ellcrank....- looked at the plans and saw I had it on the worng side of t he vert. brace....DAMM!!!!!)=0A-=0ACheers!=0A-=0ADave In-Drizzley Ca. =0A-=0A-=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-pietenpol-list-serv er(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behal f Of amsafetyc(at)aol.com=0ASent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:04 AM=0ATo: pie tenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!!=0A=0A Jim=0A=0ANice look, wanna make another?=0A=0AIts amazing what can be accomp lished when you pick up the tools and make them go to work=0A=0AJohn =0ASen t from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=0A________________________________=0A From: "Jim Markle" =0ADate: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:46:17 -0600=0ATo: <pietenpo l-list(at)matronics.com>=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!!=0A=0AAttached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of a luminum...this building-process is FUN!=0A-=0Ajm~=B2 r=0A=0A=0A" tar get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Atp://for ums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 23, 2009
Not to be a naysayer, because I did ask, but the attached photo (if it comes thru) shows 1/8" Marine Mahogany on my rear turtledeck, behind the pilot. I was more interested in hearing why some might think that metal is a better turtledeck than plywood and fabric. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:58 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. You'll never bend 1/8"..... use 1/16"....... Dave Santa Maria, Airport -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Well when I am dismounting sometimes I will sit on the turtle deck and slid e off.Probably not a good practise to keep doing that since-I will eventu ally wear out the fabric ocer the wood,-but if it was just metal then it would take some time to wear out;just my take on it.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________ ________________________=0AFrom: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>=0ATo: p ietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:03:08 PM=0A Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.=0A=0A=0ANot to be a naysayer, because I did ask, but the attached photo (if it comes thru) s hows 1/8=94 Marine Mahogany on my rear turtledeck, behind the pilot. I was more interested in hearing why some might think that metal is a better turt ledeck than plywood and fabric.=0A-=0AGary Boothe=0ACool, Ca.=0APietenpol =0AWW Corvair Conversion=0ATail done,-Fuselage ready for gear=0A(12 ribs down=85)=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson=0ASent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:58 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledec k vs. fabric.=0A-=0AYou'll never bend 1/8".....- use 1/16".......=0A- =0ADave- Santa Maria , Airport- =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: o wner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-serve r(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe=0ASent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:21 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.=0ASpeaking of tin bending=85anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8=94 ply and fabic?=0A-=0A Gary Boothe=0ACool, Ca.=0APietenpol=0AWW Corvair Conversion=0ATail done, wo rking on fuselage (endless metal parts!)=0A(12 ribs down=85)=0A=0A_________ _______________________=0A=0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holla nd=0ASent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics .com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!!=0A-=0AGood work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you le arned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on you r cowling.=0A=0ARick=0AOn Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote:=0AAttached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building-process is FUN!=0A-=0Ajm=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0ARick Holland=0ACastle Rock, Colorado=0A -=0A -=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A -=0A -=0A -=0Ah ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">htt p://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h ttp://www.matronics.com/c=0A -=0A -=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigato r?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/c ontribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric
Date: Feb 23, 2009
Just my two cents (now less than one cent=2C given the drop in values lately)=2C metal will dent or bend and can't always be popped back out. Fabric will give. Wood will resist and of course if you push it past the point of resisting=2C it will split and fail but it takes a lot to do that. I would long ago have dented or bent my turtledeck in the area behind the pilot's seat if it were metal. Oscar Zuniga Someone else's Air Camper NX41CC but I fly it like it was mine =3Bo) San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 23, 2009
How about "I couldn't bend 1/8"......(all the way to the longderon) Used 1/16"..... ??????? Plenty Strong! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:03 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Not to be a naysayer, because I did ask, but the attached photo (if it comes thru) shows 1/8" Marine Mahogany on my rear turtledeck, behind the pilot. I was more interested in hearing why some might think that metal is a better turtledeck than plywood and fabric. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:58 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. You'll never bend 1/8"..... use 1/16"....... Dave Santa Maria, Airport -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:21 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru ms.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr onics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3881 (20090223) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 23, 2009
I checked back in my photos. I used 1/16", and never groaned with many butt sits, to get out. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Abramson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. How about "I couldn't bend 1/8"......(all the way to the longderon) Used 1/16"..... ??????? Plenty Strong! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:03 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Not to be a naysayer, because I did ask, but the attached photo (if it comes thru) shows 1/8" Marine Mahogany on my rear turtledeck, behind the pilot. I was more interested in hearing why some might think that metal is a better turtledeck than plywood and fabric. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:58 AM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. You'll never bend 1/8"..... use 1/16"....... Dave Santa Maria, Airport -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:21 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3881 (20090223) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric.
Date: Feb 23, 2009
Dave, The radius is the same all the way around. The reason I did not use one piece is that I would have wasted too much wood as my fairing will curve around the pilot's shoulders (see attached). As you say, 1/16" is plenty strong, but that would have entailed an extra expenditure of $$. I accomplished this same bend on such a small piece by soaking in water, then strapping the pieces around a bucket while they dried. Even though it is marine plywood, it will hold a bend. Thanks to those who chimed in on the pros and cons. I don't think I have Markle's metal working abilities, but I can sand and shape wood! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 1:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. How about "I couldn't bend 1/8"......(all the way to the longderon) Used 1/16"..... ??????? Plenty Strong! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:03 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Not to be a naysayer, because I did ask, but the attached photo (if it comes thru) shows 1/8" Marine Mahogany on my rear turtledeck, behind the pilot. I was more interested in hearing why some might think that metal is a better turtledeck than plywood and fabric. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Abramson Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:58 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. You'll never bend 1/8"..... use 1/16"....... Dave Santa Maria, Airport -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal turtledeck vs. fabric. Speaking of tin bending.anyone got any ideas of the pros & cons of aluminum turtle deck vs. 1/8" ply and fabic? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! Good work Jim, and you got the holes for the cabane cross cables just right. You think you learned a bit about "tin bending" making that, just wait till you work on your cowling. Rick On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Jim Markle wrote: Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process is FUN! jm -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3881 (20090223) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 23, 2009
Thanks to you and Harv. I'm surprised. No one commented on my tail brace wires. :-) I have the feeling that I've seen everything, but failed to notice the elephants. (Anton Chekhov) Cliff, I like all your woodwork details; lightening holes, fairings and tapers etc. Very nice work you should be proud of. Everything obviously well thought out. Nice job. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. NX929DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Cliff, I went back and looked at your tail photo. Can't make out anything. We need a close-up to see what you are talking about. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove IL NX929DH -----Original Message----- From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca> Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 9:39 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions Thanks to you and Harv. ? I'm surprised. No one commented on my tail brace wires. :-) ? I have the feeling that I've seen everything, but failed to notice the elephants. (Anton Chekhov) Cliff, I like all your woodwork details; lightening holes, fairings and tapers etc. Very nice work you should be proud of. Everything obviously well thought out. Nice job. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. NX929DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol wing placement
Dave- - I believe when you say "Piet" you mean the Air Camper, not an all-inclusive Bernard Pietenpol list of designs. Mr. Pietenpol did design and briefly fl y a biplane but the specs are lost to history as there were never any plans made available. - There are only two versions of Pietenpol aircraft plans available, the Scou t and the Air Camper. Neither one is a "bi-wing", they are both parasol con figured. Any gross modifications of the design would by definition, take th em out of the "Pietenpol" genre. - Larry Williams- xcg, xcmr, epp=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: couple of questions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
I want to run a couple of questions by the group: 1. Those of you running Model A engines, how do you have it timed? 30 before TDC sounds about right, but not sure. 2. All of the photos on here lately that show the cockpit coaming have it ending a few inches aft of the panel (on the sides). This is how I want to do it, although the drawings show it continuing all the way around, which I do not care for. What are most of you doing? What dimension?? TLAR (that looks about right) or is there some dimension used most often (I was playing with 6-8" aft of the panel, but that may be too far). Thanks for any help, Gene working like crazy to make Brodhead '09 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: Owen Davies <owen5819(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol wing placement
H RULE wrote: > Bernard started with the Jenny and went on to modify it from there.So > the biplane you refer to would have been close to a Jenny. I missed the runup to this post, but it sounds like the airplane in question must be the Aerial, the biplane modification of the Aircamper. Plans were available from Chad Willie, last I knew. Owen ________________________________________________________________________________
From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
Subject: Re Tail dimensions/ woodwork
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Cliff, Very nice woodwork. Just wondering if you could post a few close up pics of your turtledeck? Would like to see what you have done in that area. Brian SLC From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions I have made mine to the F+G manual and this is the result; Also there was discussion on flops. This is mine. It will be clear plexi top and bottom. Easy strong arm airbrake too! :-) Clif The dimensions for the various parts which the rudder attaches to do not add up If you build the fin & fuse according to the plans, then the rudder will hang down below the bottom of the fuse by around 11/2 inches. Thanks Graham Hewitt href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ - Release Date: 02/20/09 19:22:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ed G." <flyboy_120(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol wing placement
Date: Feb 24, 2009
When I bought my first set of plans from St. Croix aircraft ( I didn't know about he Pietenpol family's plans at the time) I was sent an information p acket that showed plans and info for a biplane supposedly designed by Berna rd called the Aeriel (sp?). it was basically a Piet with an extra set of wi ngs and required a 125hp engine to overcome the extra drag=2C and I'm sure there were other differences. St Croix had the plans available for sale at that time ( early 2000 ) and still may. Ed Grentzer Date: Tue=2C 24 Feb 2009 05:27:13 -0800 From: lnawms(at)yahoo.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol wing placement Dave- I believe when you say "Piet" you mean the Air Camper=2C not an all-inclusi ve Bernard Pietenpol list of designs. Mr. Pietenpol did design and briefly fly a biplane but the specs are lost to history as there were never any pla ns made available. There are only two versions of Pietenpol aircraft plans available=2C the Sc out and the Air Camper. Neither one is a "bi-wing"=2C they are both parasol configured. Any gross modifications of the design would by definition=2C t ake them out of the "Pietenpol" genre. Larry Williams xcg=2C xcmr=2C epp ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mag timing and cowling
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Gene, ? I timed mine 30 degrees BTC. Runs great like that. Very strong. As far as the cowling goes, you don't know how much I agonized about the design/style. See attached pic. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL NX929DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Feb 24, 2009
I think that we don't see anything IS the point. I don't see any turn buckles. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231814#231814 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Subject: Re: Mag timing and cowling
Dan, She is looking great, are we going to see her at Brodhead this year? I just purchased a set of wheels and straight axle but no landing year as of yet. Do you have some pics of yours I can look at I have no idea of how the axle mounts to the gear or how I am going to come up with a braking system. Thanks John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: Donald Cooley <adonjr60(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Skyscout project for sale
Hello Piet enthusiasts!=0AFor many years I have planned to build a SkyScout ..- To that end I have accumulated much stuff, looking forward to the time when I would have time to build.- Now I have time and my time for flying has run out.- My vision has become marginal for flying and by the time I was to finish building it will be inadequate.- Therefore, I am offering the "stuff" I have for sale.- =0A=0AI have virtually all the spruce neede d, including spars, spoke wheels from Dream Machines (?), J-3 fuel tank, Vi Kappler hinges, Welded control horns, a set of wing ribs built up and a di sassembled A-65 and prop.- Also some miscellaneous instruments, including an antique tachometer.- Plans, too.- I will also include the erection table (30" X 14').=0A=0AAltogether I estimate my cost for all this at about $2800.00.- I am willing to sell all for $1500.00 and will deliver anywhe re west of the Rockies for $.20 per mile.=0A=0ADon Cooley- (530)669-3520 - Woodland, CA=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott Schreiber" <got22b(at)subarubrat.com>
Subject: Elevator cable feel and tension trouble.
Date: Feb 24, 2009
I finished my controls and was setting up the loop from the stick to the reverser and back and I ran into a problem that I and my tech counselor are both worried about. The system is built according to plans other than a thin hardwood strip above the cable exit point and a turnbuckle to adjust tension. When rigged with a tension that feels good the cable is fairly slack and when you go full stick forward the cable rises off the front pulley. There is a also a noticeable but not severe "hump" as the stick transitions backward movement and the cable tension changes. If I tension it where the cable does not rise off the pulley moving the stick takes a fair amount of force, the "hump" is very pronounced and I can't imagine any feedback being felt. Neither of us has ever seen the piet mechanism in person before I built this one, and he is a talented RV guy but has limited cable system exposure. I am stuck between the notion that cables rising off pulleys and such is unacceptable and that the problems are part of the design and the reality that Piets have flown for 80 something years with that design. That would normally tell me I have done something wrong but neither I nor my tech counselor can find a meaningful deviation or a mistake. Any ideas? -Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: couple of questions
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Gene, I ended my aluminum about 6 to 8 inches back from the panel. I have the combing on the aluminum and the longerons. It's really nice to be able to put all of my weight on the longeron. I have passengers put their weight on the front cockpit longerons. With aluminum there it may get crushed. Can kinda see it here; http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_092.JPG Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231888#231888 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Straight axle gear and brakes
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
John, Here is one way of doing the brakes with the straight axle. The photo is incomplete because the brake band is not shown. I basically copied what others have done before me. I think you can see Simon McCormack's photos on Westcoastpiet.com to get the complete picture. No, you won't see my airplane at Brodhead this year. I have encountered some major setbacks due to this economy. I am shooting for 2010 now. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL NX929DH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: couple of questions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Very nice fabric! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: couple of questions > > Gene, > > I ended my aluminum about 6 to 8 inches back from the panel. I have the > combing on the aluminum and the longerons. It's really nice to be able to > put all of my weight on the longeron. I have passengers put their weight > on the front cockpit longerons. With aluminum there it may get crushed. > Can kinda see it here; > > http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_092.JPG > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231888#231888 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
How's this? Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions Cliff, I went back and looked at your tail photo. Can't make out anything. We need a close-up to see what you are talking about. Dan Helsper ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: couple of questions
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 24, 2009
By the way... Combing is complements of my wife's old torn leather coat. Had enough for both cockpits! :D Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231921#231921 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions/ woodwork
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Sure, Here's three. In the first you see I've filled in between the turtledeck strips with soft, light balsa and faired that all in. Also you can see I've covered the "helmet box" in to the first former and used a 1" X 1" balsa strip to hold the edge. It's 1/16" ply. The second is the 1/16" ply and balsa covered in waterbase contact cement. And the third is all glued down. The bottom edge was subsiquently faired upwards to the left to meet the quarter" halfround seen as the dark line under the balsa 1x1. The reason I did it this way is that I wanted to have the ply and strips faired into each other without any bumps and for weight bearing ( hands, bum ) felt that even 1/8" might not be enough by itself. Also 1/8" and larger would be hard to bend and to fair. That box might be rather large but my intension is to store light, bulky things there. There's a lot of large, open water around here and life vests are mandatory when crossing unless you can gain enough altitude to glide to nearest land. Even if you get to that land it will probably be covered in 200 ft pointy firs and in a lot of places there's no beach at any tide. Survival gear will be upfront. Clif Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions/ woodwork Cliff, Very nice woodwork. Just wondering if you could post a few close up pics of your turtledeck? Would like to see what you have done in that area. Brian SLC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: couple of questions
That last chunk of leather I worked with came from an old couch. Part of the joys of scrounging... just open your mind to the possibilities and you'll find them everywhere. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> >Sent: Feb 24, 2009 8:00 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: couple of questions > > >By the way... Combing is complements of my wife's old torn leather coat. Had enough for both cockpits! :D > >Don Emch >NX899DE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231921#231921 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Yep. A couple of years ago, at Arlington, I came across a new two place sport plane, the name of which escapes me. There were no turnbuckles on the tail. I couldn't believe that was possible to do that but there it was. It was explained to me that adjustment was simply a matter of twisting and untwisting the wire. So I've done it to see and so far it's worked. There's a bit of a trick to getting the tight wires to line up with the holes in the fittings but if it works out OK when I actually get the thing flying then I've saved some weight where it's most important. Like everything we do the proof will be in the pudding. Right? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re Tail dimensions > > I think that we don't see anything IS the point. I don't see any turn > buckles. > > Chris > > -------- > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, CA > WestCoastPiet.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231814#231814 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 13:35:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: couple of questions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
I went to Good Will and bought a full length leather coat for $3.00 for redoing mine. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: couple of questions > > That last chunk of leather I worked with came from an old couch. > > Part of the joys of scrounging... just open your mind to the possibilities > and you'll find them everywhere. > > Jim Ash > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Don Emch <EmchAir(at)aol.com> >>Sent: Feb 24, 2009 8:00 PM >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: couple of questions >> >> >>By the way... Combing is complements of my wife's old torn leather coat. >>Had enough for both cockpits! :D >> >>Don Emch >>NX899DE >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231921#231921 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 7:17 AM > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tail brace wires with turnbuckles (not)
Date: Feb 24, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Cliff, OK so there are no turnbuckles. Did you just pre-tension everything before squishing the copper nicopress sleeves? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL NX929DH ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roy Brooks <n900ml(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 3 Piets on Barnstormers
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Does anybody on this list have any knowledge or experience with the Piets o n Barnstormers at the moment? One is in Florida=2C one is in California (forgot the other location) but a s I look at one of these=2C it looks porker-heavy to me. Thanks S. Orville B. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Hotmail=AE:=85more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_expl ore_022009 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Cliff, Difficult to see, but I think your shackles look like mine. I'm intrigued by your twisting-wire technique!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions How's this? Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions Cliff, I went back and looked at your tail photo. Can't make out anything. We need a close-up to see what you are talking about. Dan Helsper ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Tail brace wires with turnbuckles (not)
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Yes and no. Once I had the bottom done and squished I set the tail on two high sawhorses so it was level, weighted the tailpost with a sandbag and checked everything for straightness. I had to do a little twisting both left and right on a couple of wires but that was all. Then I worked on pulling the top ones tight and holding them with small industrial U bolt cable clamps. At this point the nicopress ferules were 5" away from the thimbles. When they were pushed up tight that added some more tension. I plucked the wires all round to hear the same note from each, fiddled a bit to get that note the same then squished the ferules. I've had it apart twice. It's a bit of a grunt to get them back on the brackets but doable with a little heavier weight hanging off the tailpost. It's all like Lincoln said; "If I had 8 hours to cut down a tree,,,I'd spend the first 6 sharpening the axe" ABE LINCOLN Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: helspersew(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail brace wires with turnbuckles (not) Cliff, OK so there are no turnbuckles. Did you just pre-tension everything before squishing the copper nicopress sleeves? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/24/09 13:35:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Straight axle gear and brakes
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 25, 2009
RGFuDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIHBpY3MgSSBhcHByZWNpYXRlIGl0LiBTb3JyeSB0byBoZWFy IHRoZSBlY29ub215IGhhcyBkZWxheWVkIHlvdXIgY29tcGxldGlvbi4gWWV0IHRocm91Z2ggbXkg b3duIGNvbmNlcm4gSSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gd29uZGVyaW5nIGFib3V0IHlvdXIgYnVzaW5lc3Mgc2l0 dWF0aW9uIGFuZCBob3cgdGhpbmdzIHdlcmUgZ29pbmcgZm9yIHlvdT8gTGFzdCB3ZSBzcG9rZSB5 b3VyIGJ1c2luZXNzIGhhZCBqdXN0IHRha2VuIGEgaGl0LCBJIHdhcyBob3BpbmcgdGhpbmdzIGlt cHJvdmVkIG9yIHRoYXQgeW91IHdlcmUgYWJsZSB0byByZWdhaW4gc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgbG9zdCBi dXNpbmVzcy4gDQoNCkRhbiwgcGxlYXNlIGxldCBtZSBrbm93IGhvdyB5b3UncmUgZG9pbmcuIEkg YW0gaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBhbmQgY29uY2VybmVkLiANCg0KVGhhbmtzIGFnYWluDQoNCkpvaG4NClNl bnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVsZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVycnkNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBN ZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGhlbHNwZXJzZXdAYW9sLmNvbQ0KDQpEYXRlOiBUdWUsIDI0IEZl YiAyMDA5IDE3OjU3OjA1IA0KVG86IDxwaWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tPg0KU3Vi amVjdDogUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3Q6IFN0cmFpZ2h0IGF4bGUgZ2VhciBhbmQgYnJha2VzDQoNCg0K Sm9obiwNCg0KSGVyZSBpcyBvbmUgd2F5IG9mIGRvaW5nIHRoZSBicmFrZXMgd2l0aCB0aGUgc3Ry YWlnaHQgYXhsZS4gVGhlIHBob3RvIGlzIGluY29tcGxldGUgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGUgYnJha2UgYmFu ZCBpcyBub3Qgc2hvd24uIEkgYmFzaWNhbGx5IGNvcGllZCB3aGF0IG90aGVycyBoYXZlIGRvbmUg YmVmb3JlIG1lLiBJIHRoaW5rIHlvdSBjYW4gc2VlIFNpbW9uIE1jQ29ybWFjaydzIHBob3RvcyBv biBXZXN0Y29hc3RwaWV0LmNvbSB0byBnZXQgdGhlIGNvbXBsZXRlIHBpY3R1cmUuIE5vLCB5b3Ug d29uJ3Qgc2VlIG15IGFpcnBsYW5lIGF0IEJyb2RoZWFkIHRoaXMgeWVhci4gSSBoYXZlIGVuY291 bnRlcmVkIHNvbWUgbWFqb3Igc2V0YmFja3MgZHVlIHRvIHRoaXMgZWNvbm9teS4gSSBhbSBzaG9v dGluZyBmb3IgMjAxMCBub3cuDQoNCkRhbiBIZWxzcGVyDQpQb3BsYXIgR3JvdmUsIElMDQpOWDky OURIDQoNCg= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mid-Wing Pietenpol
From: "Mild Bill" <whfrank(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Well, I've seen a horse fly, and I've seen a house fly, and I've even seen a low-wing Pietenpol, or at least a picture thereof: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=41853 So a mid-wing Pietenpol seems eminently possible. [Wink] -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231971#231971 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Great minds think alike. We won't mention the other half of that saying, will we. :-) As you can see I'm using pins instead of bolts. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:44 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions Cliff, Difficult to see, but I think your shackles look like mine. I'm intrigued by your twisting-wire technique!! Gary Boothe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Mid-Wing Pietenpol
Date: Feb 24, 2009
Heath did it. > Well, I've seen a horse fly, and I've seen a house fly, and I've even seen > a low-wing Pietenpol, or at least a picture thereof: > So a mid-wing Pietenpol seems eminently possible. [Wink] > > -------- > Bill Frank ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: Elevator cable feel and tension trouble.
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Scott, Almost sounds like you are having something hanging up. Pulley?? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 11:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator cable feel and tension trouble. I finished my controls and was setting up the loop from the stick to the reverser and back and I ran into a problem that I and my tech counselor are both worried about. The system is built according to plans other than a thin hardwood strip above the cable exit point and a turnbuckle to adjust tension. When rigged with a tension that feels good the cable is fairly slack and when you go full stick forward the cable rises off the front pulley. There is a also a noticeable but not severe "hump" as the stick transitions backward movement and the cable tension changes. If I tension it where the cable does not rise off the pulley moving the stick takes a fair amount of force, the "hump" is very pronounced and I can't imagine any feedback being felt. Neither of us has ever seen the piet mechanism in person before I built this one, and he is a talented RV guy but has limited cable system exposure. I am stuck between the notion that cables rising off pulleys and such is unacceptable and that the problems are part of the design and the reality that Piets have flown for 80 something years with that design. That would normally tell me I have done something wrong but neither I nor my tech counselor can find a meaningful deviation or a mistake. Any ideas? -Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 2/23/2009 7:17 AM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Subject: Larry William's, RT Searfoss, and my brakes and wheels
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: couple of questions
Date: Feb 25, 2009
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
If you want the cockpit coaming to be a smooth curve rather than just running straight down to the longeron, then straight aft, there is a way to do it. I added a piece of aluminum angle screwed down to the longeron, which supports a slit piece of 1/2" polyethylene "Funny Pipe" tubing (available in the lawn irrigation system section of Home Depot), which in turn is covered by a piece of slit foam pipe insulation, which then gets wrapped with leather. The aluminum caowling gets inserted into the slit of the funny pipe and is flush with the top of the angle, so when you climb in and out of the cockpit, you can put your full weight on the coaming and it gets transferred to the longeron. Works very well. The only difficult part was lacing the leather in place, which required drilling a hole through the aluminum and the angle, then threading the lacing through all the holes. Here are some pictures to help explain: Cockpit Coaming 7 (Large) shows the basic arrangement of aluminum angle, funny pipe and pipe insulation. The aluminum sheeting for the cowling is cut to be flush with the top of the angle and the slit in the funny pipe is then pushed down over the aluminum sheet and the angle, so the weight gets borne by the funny pipe and is transferred to the angle and then to the longeron. Cockpit Coaming 11 (Large) shows the aluminum sheeting in place, with the funny pipe and the foam pipe insulation installed over it and the angle. Cockpit Coaming Leather 2 shows the beginning of trial fitting the leather over the coaming. Plastic tie wraps were used to hold it in place as the hole pattern was developed. This was a piece of scrap leather, and then the pattern was transferred to the final piece. My wife sewed a nice hem on the edges of the leather before it was laced in place. Lacing Cockpit Coaming 1 shows me lacing the leather in place. It would have been far easier to lace it with a single row of lacing, but I thought it would look better with a double row. Now that it's done I'm happy with it, but it was a pain in the butt to do it. Lacing both cockpits took me about 12 hours of work, and it wasn't fun work. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- Gene, I ended my aluminum about 6 to 8 inches back from the panel. I have the combing on the aluminum and the longerons. It's really nice to be able to put all of my weight on the longeron. I have passengers put their weight on the front cockpit longerons. With aluminum there it may get crushed. Can kinda see it here; http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_092.JPG Don Emch NX899DE _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Misc. For Sale
From: "Mark Baxter" <m.baxter(at)comcast.net>
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Greetings everyone, I have decided to sell a number of items that came with my GN-1 project. -30 yds of 2.7oz homebuilders fabric - 6" matco wheels with disk brakes, master cylinders, 6.00x6 airhawk tires and tubes - matco pneumatic tailwheel with J-3 type springs - older set of Grega plans - instruments that I would like to sell as a package, includes airspeed indicator, altimeter, compass, tachometer, oil pressure and oil temp I have all receipts for the items and they are all essentially new. I am not really sure what to ask for some of the stuff so contact me off list and let's talk. Thanks, Mark Baxter, GN-1 project Corvallis, Oregon (541) 908-4878 m.baxter(at)comcast.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232018#232018 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Elevator cable feel and tension trouble.
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Scott, I obsessed about the same thing until I figured out that the weight of the elevator will take up that forward stick slack cable. As for the hump, just guessing the turnbuckle may be too tight. Tie a string on the top of the bell crank, run it back to the tail and tie a small weight on to simulate the weight of the elevator, now adjust the turnbuckle and you may fix the hump. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Schreiber Sent: 2/24/2009 2:42:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator cable feel and tension trouble. I finished my controls and was setting up the loop from the stick to the reverser and back and I ran into a problem that I and my tech counselor are both worried about. The system is built according to plans other than a thin hardwood strip above the cable exit point and a turnbuckle to adjust tension. When rigged with a tension that feels good the cable is fairly slack and when you go full stick forward the cable rises off the front pulley. There is a also a noticeable but not severe "hump" as the stick transitions backward movement and the cable tension changes. If I tension it where the cable does not rise off the pulley moving the stick takes a fair amount of force, the "hump" is very pronounced and I can't imagine any feedback being felt. Neither of us has ever seen the piet mechanism in person before I built this one, and he is a talented RV guy but has limited cable system exposure. I am stuck between the notion that cables rising off pulleys and such is unacceptable a nd that the problems are part of the design and the reality that Piets have flown for 80 something years with that design. That would normally tell me I have done something wrong but neither I nor my tech counselor can find a meaningful deviation or a mistake. Any ideas? -Scott ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BYD(at)att.net
Subject: Low-wing Pietenpol
Date: Feb 25, 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 25, 2009
The first time I heard of the wire twisting thing , was back when the Quicksilver U/L's were around. that's how they adjusted rigging, cause all the wings were wire braced. You took off a fitting bolt, and twisted it one way to shorten the cable, and the other way to lengthen it. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions Cliff, Difficult to see, but I think your shackles look like mine. I'm intrigued by your twisting-wire technique!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:20 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions How's this? Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re Tail dimensions Cliff, I went back and looked at your tail photo. Can't make out anything. We need a close-up to see what you are talking about. Dan Helsper ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Re Tail dimensions
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Ah, nothing is ever new is it. Kinda like all those new jokes the young folks are coming up with now. You know. the ones we heard in the 60's. :-) Clif The first time I heard of the wire twisting thing , was back when the Quicksilver U/L's were around.walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: couple of questions
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Jack, That does make for a very nice, smooth transition from aluminum to longeron. Looks great! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232115#232115 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Winter flying in Ohio
Group, Well I got to go flying today for about an hour.- About 48-50 degr ees and a 8-10mph cross wind.- Good day for practice since it's been 3 mo nths since I flew last.- Corvair ran good except a a couple burps on the first climb out (got the pucker factor up a bit).- I don't know if it was carb ice that formed and broke loose as it was pretty humid, or water in t he fuel, but I circled over the airport for 30 min or so with carb heat on and off, no more problems.- I thought I thourly drained all the sumps and the tank was full since I put it away last, and showed no evidence of cont amination-in the fuel tester.- Oh well, I will take the fuel strainer a part and clean it up before I fly next, and check the sumps again.- I got my 5 takeoffs and landings, lazily flying out to the west, land to the eas t, and got some left and right cross wind ldgs.- Mike did you get as luck y, and go flying today?- - Shad P.S. Mike C. , I ment to send that last email to the list instead of your p ersonel email, oops!=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TGSTONE236(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Subject: waiting on parts or refund
Normally people selling parts have them in stock,or can give you a time that they will be able to deliver the part that you have paid for in advance as a lot of us have paid WW in advance by PayPal or check. After that you can't find out anything by email to them. Still waiting after almost 10 months,I have asked for a possible ship date or a refund if you aren't going to produce the goods. I have been totally ignored with no reply so I have to assume this is WW's way of doing business. I have even ask by email if certain items are in stock that I would love to have ,No answer. I do not want order some thing else to have my money tied up for another 10 to 12 months, This is really discourging when you are trying to build an engine as per WW's reccomendation using his his proven tested parts. I am to the point now that I wish I had gone Continental and I would not have had a problem with parts or part suppliers. Ted Stone Trying to complete a Corvair Pietenpol **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2009
Subject: Re: waiting on parts or refund
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Ted, I'm sorry you have not had a good experience with WW. In your post you mention numerous emails that you have sent them. Have you picked up the phone and given him a call? In my experience (and I have heard others echo this), you are far more likely to get your issues resolved if you talk to William on the phone. Emails take less effort and may be more convenient than phone calls, but I'm sure he gets far too many to answer each one. It can take plenty of calls to reach him, but I think you will get better results. Leave messages on the machine as well. Try to keep them concise, and make sure you clearly speak your name and phone number. Just out of curiosity how far along are you on your Corvair build/rebuild? Are the lack of William Wynne conversion parts holding up your progress? Ryan On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:17 PM, wrote: > Normally people selling parts have them in stock,or can give you a time > that they will be able to deliver the part that you have paid for in advance > as a lot of us have paid WW in advance by PayPal or check. After that you > can't find out anything by email to them. Still waiting after almost 10 > months,I have asked for a possible ship date or a refund if you aren't going > to produce the goods. I have been totally ignored with no reply so I have to > assume this is WW's way of doing business. I have even ask by email if > certain items are in stock that I would love to have ,No answer. I do not > want order some thing else to have my money tied up for another 10 to 12 > months, > > This is really discourging when you are trying to build an engine as per > WW's reccomendation using his his proven tested parts. > > I am to the point now that I wish I had gone Continental and I would not > have had a problem with parts or part suppliers. > > Ted Stone > > Trying to complete a Corvair Pietenpol > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <wmhcarync(at)aol.com>
Subject: What airfoil does the pientenpol use?
Date: Feb 26, 2009
First, I apologize if this has been answered 50000 times before. I'm dashing off to work and as a first-time user, I haven't figured out how to search yet. Thanks! Bill Howdeshell ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Subject: Re: What airfoil does the pientenpol use?
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Bill, Have a good third shift! And congrats on being with a company that needs to have a third shift. :P You can search the archives at this address: http://www.matronics.com/search/ Just pick "Pietenpol" from the Select Archive drop down menu. Read the instructions to learn how to format your search for optimal results. The Pietenpol airfoil is the "FC10" airfoil, which is a made up name for a made up airfoil. As the story goes, Bernard arrived at his airfoil through experimentation, and gave it that designation because it was the tenth one he tried, and he used a French curve template to draw it (as far as I have read). Ryan On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:09 PM, wrote: > First, I apologize if this has been answered 50000 times before. I=92m > dashing off to work and as a first-time user, I haven=92t figured out how to > search yet. > > Thanks! > > Bill Howdeshell > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: What airfoil does the pientenpol use?
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Hi Bill, If you don't already own it, one of the books you should get if you are going to build a Pietenpol is the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual (available from EAA). It has the original plans for the Air Camper and is an interesting read. Chet Peek's book on the Air Camper is also fascinating, if you are interested in the history of this craft. While on the subject of books, if you don't have them, be sure to get a copy of the four Tony Bingelis books, The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction Techniques, Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines. Nearly every question you will come up with while building this airplane is answered in one or more of those books. Welcome to the list! I enjoyed meeting you at the EAA meeting last week. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 1:08 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: What airfoil does the pientenpol use? Bill, Have a good third shift! And congrats on being with a company that needs to have a third shift. :P You can search the archives at this address: http://www.matronics.com/search/ Just pick "Pietenpol" from the Select Archive drop down menu. Read the instructions to learn how to format your search for optimal results. The Pietenpol airfoil is the "FC10" airfoil, which is a made up name for a made up airfoil. As the story goes, Bernard arrived at his airfoil through experimentation, and gave it that designation because it was the tenth one he tried, and he used a French curve template to draw it (as far as I have read). Ryan On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:09 PM, wrote: First, I apologize if this has been answered 50000 times before. I'm dashing off to work and as a first-time user, I haven't figured out how to search yet. Thanks! Bill Howdeshell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Subject: Spring-like flying in Ohio and welcome Bill
Good to hear you got to fly on Wednesday Shad. I didn't go but today if there are some breaks in the rain it will be warmer so you never know. On my 65 Continental on cooler days (45F and below) I will get a hesitation or miss as I advance the throttle on takeoff if I do it too quickly or if the engine isn't fully warmed but it sounds like your misses were on your takeoff climb out. Maybe all your engine needed was a good hour long flight. Welcome to the list Bill and I would have to second everything that Jack Phillips said---especially about the homebuilt construction book series by Tony Bingelis available from EAA. My building process involved steps like this: -- here is what I want to build next -- read the plans, think about it, look at plans again. -- think of how/what material I'd like to use (say for windshields---Plexiglass or Lexan ? I had no idea) -- talk to the IA's and A&P's at my local airport who are all older guys who restore old airplanes and know a ton. -- become confused (as usual) and then go to the Tony Bingelis books and see what options/ideas he gives. -- discard old wives tales that are sometimes told at airports or on the list and listen to what Tony said--sound advice. -- think more about how I was going to do this or that and then build it. -- every decision was based on doing things with approved aircraft materials and building practices--no shortcuts but all the while trying to keep the extra stuff like whole house air conditioning, a Bose surround sound system, full cockpit instruments in both cockpits, and starters, generators, ILS, DME, and full IFR panels out of the picture as all of these will add unnecessary weight that you don't need and will degrade your performance. The plane is not a 172--don't overload it or you will essentially end up with a two seat airplane that can only carry one person. --this is not to say that if you fly out of airports requiring encoding altimeters and radios that you shouldn't have them or that if you feel safer not hand-propping your airplane, by all means put in the necessary stuff--just know that unless you run a strong Corvair or 0-200 your performance will suffer. End of sermon. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
Subject: waiting on parts or refund
Date: Feb 26, 2009
I ordered one of the "My Ex wanted me to quit flying T-shirts" from WW, it has been several months, and still no shirt. When it comes time to rebuilding my Corvair, I might just make a trip to sunny Florida and purchase my parts in person. The cost of a plane ticket will offset the frustrations I have read about the shipping time and no response from supplier. Brian SLC From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TGSTONE236(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: waiting on parts or refund Normally people selling parts have them in stock,or can give you a time that they will be able to deliver the part that you have paid for in advance as a lot of us have paid WW in advance by PayPal or check. After that you can't find out anything by email to them. Still waiting after almost 10 months,I have asked for a possible ship date or a refund if you aren't going to produce the goods. I have been totally ignored with no reply so I have to assume this is WW's way of doing business. I have even ask by email if certain items are in stock that I would love to have ,No answer. I do not want order some thing else to have my money tied up for another 10 to 12 months, This is really discourging when you are trying to build an engine as per WW's reccomendation using his his proven tested parts. I am to the point now that I wish I had gone Continental and I would not have had a problem with parts or part suppliers. Ted Stone Trying to complete a Corvair Pietenpol ________________________________ A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! =http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072% 2 6hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: cockpit coaming
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Jack=2C I'm very concerned that you have gone such a radical route on your airplane and departed from tradition. Mr. Pietenpol did not have "funny pipe" or closed-cell foam insulation in his day so I don't think you can rightfully call your airplane an Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC without funny pipe San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RAMPEYBOY(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Subject: Re: waiting on parts or refund
Maybe you could coordinate the trip with WW to pick the parts up at Sun N Fun. Now that would make the trip worthwhile! Boyce ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: cockpit coaming
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Exactly!!!!!!!!!! I will call my modified Air Camper a Pietenpol Speedster!!! (wing 3" 4" or 5" lower than plans) Dave (with funny pipe! Like that idea!) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:07 AM To: Pietenpol List Subject: Pietenpol-List: cockpit coaming Jack, I'm very concerned that you have gone such a radical route on your airplane and departed from tradition. Mr. Pietenpol did not have "funny pipe" or closed-cell foam insulation in his day so I don't think you can rightfully call your airplane an Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC without funny pipe San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: cockpit coaming
Date: Feb 26, 2009
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips(at)cardinalhealth.com>
To be honest, I've been very concerned about this since the day I decided to put a Continental A65 engine on it. And then covering it with polyester, of all things, instead of a muslin bedsheet. Please don't tell anyone. I'd hate for the FAA to pull my Airworthiness Certificate due to false advertising. Jack Phillips NX899JP Psuedopol Air Cramper _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:07 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: cockpit coaming Jack, I'm very concerned that you have gone such a radical route on your airplane and departed from tradition. Mr. Pietenpol did not have "funny pipe" or closed-cell foam insulation in his day so I don't think you can rightfully call your airplane an Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC without funny pipe San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: cockpit coaming
Not sure what mine will be called with all my personal mods done to it... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Subject: Re: waiting on parts or refund
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
When it comes time to rebuild your Corvair, and you order your parts, call William and let him know when you need them to complete your build. I believe, generally speaking, people that actually are going to use the part s right now to get their engine running take precedence over those who are ordering parts to use in 5 to 10 years. Is that fair? No, not really, but i t gets parts to those who actually need them right now versus those who just want them right now..... Ryan On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com> wrote: > I ordered one of the =93My Ex wanted me to quit flying T-shirts=94 from WW, > it has been several months, and still no shirt. When it comes time to > rebuilding my Corvair, I might just make a trip to sunny Florida and > purchase my parts in person. The cost of a plane ticket will offset the > frustrations I have read about the shipping time and no response from > supplier. > > > Brian > > SLC > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
Subject: Preferred ply
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Group, I was combing through the archives regarding the types of plywood for rib & fuse gussets and fuselage sides. It seems there is a variety of types used. I am thinking of ordering from Aircraft spruce or Boulter plywood. Which types are most preferred among Piet builders? Thanks. Finnish Birch 1/16" & 1/8" African Mahogany or American Birch 1/16" & 1/8" Okkume =BC" for fuse Brian Brian Jardine L-3 Communications Operations Project Engineer 640 North 2200 West P.O.Box 16850 Salt Lake City, UT 84116 L 801-594-3482 brian.e.jardine@L-3com.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 26, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Introduction and request
Hello, My name is Ameet Savant. I live in Omaha, Nebraska. I haven't really followed the Pietenpol as much in the past until I became aware of project for sale in California last week. Since then I have been researching as much as I can. I visited a GN-1 builder/pilot in Iowa. He has been flying since 1978. I inspected his plane and even successfully tried it on for size. I owe a big thank you to Tim Willis who belongs this list for spending a lot of time educating me about the Piet. All I can say is I am hooked! Well that is the introduction and now on to the request. The project for sale is in Gilroy, CA. I wanted to see if anyone near that area would be willing to visit the seller and give me a thumbs up or down as to the condition of the project. Based on the project photos and conversations I've had with some of the experienced people there is a more than higher chance that the project is worth buying. However, I would much rather get a second opinion from some one who can physically be there and is experienced (even little experience is fine) in the Piet. The seller is not the builder and is not able to answer some the questions that my chapter's tech counselor asked. He is trying to find the answers though. Please let me know if someone is able/willing to help out. My phone number is 402 516 4546 and my email address is ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com. I am hoping to make it to Brodhead this year. Thanks Ameet Savant ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Introduction and request
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Ameet, I am traveling to the SF Bay Area next week and may have time to drop down to Gilroy to take a peek for you. Certainly I am not the expert that others may be, and would gladly be substituted by someone who is actually flying a Piet that they have built. Besides, I am curious as to why in the world someone would give up a perfectly good project?! You can email me personally at gboothe5(at)comcast.net. I'll be at BH this year and hope to meet you... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ameet Savant Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Introduction and request Hello, My name is Ameet Savant. I live in Omaha, Nebraska. I haven't really followed the Pietenpol as much in the past until I became aware of project for sale in California last week. Since then I have been researching as much as I can. I visited a GN-1 builder/pilot in Iowa. He has been flying since 1978. I inspected his plane and even successfully tried it on for size. I owe a big thank you to Tim Willis who belongs this list for spending a lot of time educating me about the Piet. All I can say is I am hooked! Well that is the introduction and now on to the request. The project for sale is in Gilroy, CA. I wanted to see if anyone near that area would be willing to visit the seller and give me a thumbs up or down as to the condition of the project. Based on the project photos and conversations I've had with some of the experienced people there is a more than higher chance that the project is worth buying. However, I would much rather get a second opinion from some one who can physically be there and is experienced (even little experience is fine) in the Piet. The seller is not the builder and is not able to answer some the questions that my chapter's tech counselor asked. He is trying to find the answers though. Please let me know if someone is able/willing to help out. My phone number is 402 516 4546 and my email address is ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com. I am hoping to make it to Brodhead this year. Thanks Ameet Savant ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Preferred ply
From: "Glenn Thomas" <glennthomas(at)flyingwood.com>
Date: Feb 26, 2009
I've been using Finnish Birch too. My 1/16" came from Aircraft Spruce, the 1/8th all came from Boulter. Boulter is little cheaper. If you go with Aircraft Spruce, make sure they ship it from CA if you're in UT. They tried to ship me capstrip (to CT) for my ribs from CA and I had to ask to have it sent from GA and saved a non-trivial amount on the shipping. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232291#232291 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Preferred ply
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Preferred plyMy Fuselage is all Mahogany, because I like the look of the dark wood and it is lighter. Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Preferred ply Group, I was combing through the archives regarding the types of plywood for rib & fuse gussets and fuselage sides. It seems there is a variety of types used. I am thinking of ordering from Aircraft spruce or Boulter plywood. Which types are most preferred among Piet builders? Thanks. Finnish Birch 1/16" & 1/8" African Mahogany or American Birch 1/16" & 1/8" Okkume =BC" for fuse Brian Brian Jardine L-3 Communications Operations Project Engineer 640 North 2200 West P.O.Box 16850 Salt Lake City, UT 84116 L 801-594-3482 brian.e.jardine@L-3com.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Preferred ply
Date: Feb 26, 2009
So=85is it dark or lighter? Mine=92s got Mahogany, too. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down=85) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of catdesigns(at)att.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Preferred ply My Fuselage is all Mahogany, because I like the look of the dark wood and it is lighter. Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Preferred ply Group, I was combing through the archives regarding the types of plywood for rib & fuse gussets and fuselage sides. It seems there is a variety of types used. I am thinking of ordering from Aircraft spruce or Boulter plywood. Which types are most preferred among Piet builders? Thanks. Finnish Birch 1/16=94 & 1/8=94 African Mahogany or American Birch 1/16=94 & 1/8=94 Okkume =BC=94 for fuse Brian Brian Jardine L-3 Communications Operations Project Engineer 640 North 2200 West P.O.Box 16850 Salt Lake City, UT 84116 L 801-594-3482 brian.e.jardine@L-3com.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Preferred ply
Date: Feb 26, 2009
Preferred plyBoy that doesn't make much sense now that I read it. Mahogany is lighter in weight, slightly, then birch. I should type slower and read more. Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Preferred ply So.is it dark or lighter? Mine's got Mahogany, too. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage ready for gear (12 ribs down.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of catdesigns(at)att.net Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:12 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Preferred ply My Fuselage is all Mahogany, because I like the look of the dark wood and it is lighter. Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Preferred ply Group, I was combing through the archives regarding the types of plywood for rib & fuse gussets and fuselage sides. It seems there is a variety of types used. I am thinking of ordering from Aircraft spruce or Boulter plywood. Which types are most preferred among Piet builders? Thanks. Finnish Birch 1/16" & 1/8" African Mahogany or American Birch 1/16" & 1/8" Okkume =BC" for fuse Brian Brian Jardine L-3 Communications Operations Project Engineer 640 North 2200 West P.O.Box 16850 Salt Lake City, UT 84116 L 801-594-3482 brian.e.jardine@L-3com.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 27, 2009
Subject: Re: MILESTONE!!!
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
We Piet builders are a tough bunch and think (almost) nothing of acquiring a few cuts, bruises and lacerations during a building session obviously unlike those wimpy RV builders. Kind of like those NHL player holdouts that refused to wear helmets until the NHL made them. When you see those old Stanley cup films of those goalies with almost no pads or helmets taking 100 mph pucks without even flinching think of us. p.s. welcome ot the Piet builders clan Doug Rick On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Doug Bowman wrote: > > New to the list and just starting to build ribs. Noticed the bare edges of > the aluminum and when we built an RV it was imperative to put some kind of > protection on that kind of an edge. It could really open up your scalp if > your head came forward. > > Doug > > > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Jim Markle wrote: > > > From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: MILESTONE!!! > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 9:46 AM > > Attached is a (small) picture of what started out this > > morning as a flat piece of aluminum...this building process > > is FUN! > > > > jm > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Rob Stapleton, Jr." <foto(at)alaska.net>
Subject: High Res image of the Aerial Pietenpol?
Date: Feb 27, 2009
Does anyone on this list know of a high resolution (2000X34000, or 12X18 @ 300DPI) JPEG of an Aerial Pietenpol? I am looking for one to be used at a school assembly on Monday here in Anchorage for the Begich Middle School Build a Plane Project and we want to blow it up to show what the aircraft looks like once finished. Please send a link, contact me off website, or message me at foto(at)alaska.net Thanks, Rob Rob Stapleton, Photojournalist Anchorage, Alaska KL2AN Skype:rob.stapleton.jr IM Windows Live Messenger: foto(at)alaska.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "walt" <waltdak(at)verizon.net>
Subject: found some old pics
Date: Feb 27, 2009
Found some old pics of the first flight day after DAR signoff. What an exciting day. Flew without the cowl to check for lose stuff, oil leaks, etc. Maybe this will be inspirational for the builders. walt evans NX140DL ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Motivational Pictures
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 28, 2009
Thanks for the cool pics Walt! For some reason, every time I see this picture it makes me want to get out and fly! It's of Andrew King giving a ride in my Piet last year at Brodhead. Problem is, it looks like nobody is flying! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232402#232402 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8035_439.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Newbie with questions
From: "jimbir" <jimbir(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 28, 2009
Please let me introduce myself. My name is Jim Birke. I am a member of the Ira G. Ross Aerospace Museum in Niagara Falls NY. We are about the preservation of the history of aviation in western NY. Such names as Bell, Curtiss, Fleet, Consolidated, Etc. We are also in possession of a partially completed air camper which was to us donated by the wife of the gentleman who started the project but passed away a few years ago. The museum has asked a couple of us to see if we could complete it. We have no plans to make it airworthy however, we are taking great pains to carefully build it to the original plans and make a show piece of it. I have been given the position of the go-to guy and, if you don't mind, I'll be regaling you folks with questions from time to time. The 1st question is in two parts: A and B The flying struts have been completed and the attachment points have been installed on the fuselage the attachment brackets on the wing spars are not installed. The ribs are glued to the spars and we have temporary drag and anti-drag "wires" made of twine installed to keep the wing from racking if we have to move it. BTW it's a three piece wing. The center section is finished and we are working on the LH wing. Part A. It looks like, in order to install the flying strut brackets on the wings and establish a dihedral of approximately 1 deg. at the same time, we have to mount the wing on the plane, get the dihedral set up, and let the flying struts determine the placement of the brackets on the wing. I know there are dimensions on the plans but, since there are no adjustments anywhere, I am not comfortable relying on them. Am I correct with this train of thought? Part B. In order to mount the wing, we have to mount the center section. In all the photos I've seen of finished Piets, There are two diagonal braces that appear to be running from the top of the forward center section struts forward to a point just above the firewall. These appear to be absolutely necessary to keep the center section in place fore and aft. The upper engine mount plates on our plane have what appears to be an addition to them to attach the lower end of the diagonal braces. (See attached photo.) This is not called out on the original plans nor are the diagonal braces. I need to find out how the diagonal braces are constructed and the dimensions of them and the method of attaching them to the upper end of the center section struts. I will be grateful for any and all help You can provide. Thanks, Jim B. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232501#232501 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/upper_engine_mount_bracket_186.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie with questions
Date: Feb 28, 2009
Jim: Part A: If the struts are the correct length, your method may work. The way it is done is the wings, with the fitting installed in the correct position, are installed on the airplane, and the struts are built to the length needed. It is not easy to imagine how he built the struts first. The one degree dihedral is not in the plans (neither is the 3-piece wing), it is added by most folks for flying stability. If you are building for display, you could make the wing flat so that it looks more like the original one-piece wing. Part B: The diagonal strut you refer to is an after-market modification. The original plans have an X of wires between the cabane struts to hold the center section stable fore and aft. Most people leave off those wires in favor of the diagonal strut to make front cockpit access easier. If your airplane is built for them, the top engine mount fittings will have ears sticking up for that strut to attach to. If not, it would be more original and easier anyway to install the cables. I am in Buffalo frequently with my job, and would love to see your project the next time I am there. Gene Rambo frantically building for Brodhead ----- Original Message ----- From: jimbir<mailto:jimbir(at)yahoo.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 3:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie with questions > Please let me introduce myself. My name is Jim Birke. I am a member of the Ira G. Ross Aerospace Museum in Niagara Falls NY. We are about the preservation of the history of aviation in western NY. Such names as Bell, Curtiss, Fleet, Consolidated, Etc. We are also in possession of a partially completed air camper which was to us donated by the wife of the gentleman who started the project but passed away a few years ago. The museum has asked a couple of us to see if we could complete it. We have no plans to make it airworthy however, we are taking great pains to carefully build it to the original plans and make a show piece of it. I have been given the position of the go-to guy and, if you don't mind, I'll be regaling you folks with questions from time to time. The 1st question is in two parts: A and B The flying struts have been completed and the attachment points have been installed on the fuselage the attachment brackets on the wing spars are not installed. The ribs are glued to the spars and we have temporary drag and anti-drag "wires" made of twine installed to keep the wing from racking if we have to move it. BTW it's a three piece wing. The center section is finished and we are working on the LH wing. Part A. It looks like, in order to install the flying strut brackets on the wings and establish a dihedral of approximately 1 deg. at the same time, we have to mount the wing on the plane, get the dihedral set up, and let the flying struts determine the placement of the brackets on the wing. I know there are dimensions on the plans but, since there are no adjustments anywhere, I am not comfortable relying on them. Am I correct with this train of thought? Part B. In order to mount the wing, we have to mount the center section. In all the photos I've seen of finished Piets, There are two diagonal braces that appear to be running from the top of the forward center section struts forward to a point just above the firewall. These appear to be absolutely necessary to keep the center section in place fore and aft. The upper engine mount plates on our plane have what appears to be an addition to them to attach the lower end of the diagonal braces. (See attached photo.) This is not called out on the original plans nor are the diagonal braces. I need to find out how the diagonal braces are constructed and the dimensions of them and the method of attaching them to the upper end of the center section struts. I will be grateful for any and all help You can provide. Thanks, Jim B. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232501#232501 .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232501#232501> Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/upper_engine_mount_bracket_186.jpg p://forums.matronics.com//files/upper_engine_mount_bracket_186.jpg> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newbie with questions
From: "jimbir" <jimbir(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 28, 2009
Thanks Gene. He apparently built the flying struts to the dimensions on the plans. We have a Pietenpol drawing showing the construction of the wing center section and the treatment of the butt ends of the outer wings. It has a later date on it which I can't recall at the moment. I noticed the right side cross wires on the plans, but I'd say the diagonal braces would be much more effective. You have my email address. I will be more than happy to show you the Piet when you're in town. Give me a days notice. You'll also get to see the resurrection of a 1917 Curtiss JN-4 that we're working on. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232521#232521 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: found some old pics
From: "jimbir" <jimbir(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 01, 2009
Hi Walt. What a beautiful plane! It has on it just what I'm looking for, the diagonal brace rods between the top of the center section forward struts and the top motor mount fitting at the firewall. Would you have any construction details of these parts such as Materials and dimensions? I posted a message titled "Newbie with questions" on the 28th. If you read it, it will fill you in on the details of who I am, the group I belong to, and the project we're working on. Thanks for any help you can provide. Jim Birke. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232576#232576 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: message formatting question
From: "jimbir" <jimbir(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 01, 2009
I wrote a reply to the message "found some old pictures" The text does not fit neatly into one window. Instead it continues to the right for a couple of screen widths. How do I format it so this doesn't happen? If this is not the right place for this question, can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks. Jim B Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232587#232587 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 01, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: found some old pics
Someone mentioned that Walt's control surface gap seemed too big. I think I know what it going on. The gap is not as big as it appears in the photo. It is only stretched in the photo due to the motion of the airplane and a slower shutter speed. Also notice the width of the tail number is more than it appears. Wow, I never thought my photography knowledge could answer aerodynamic questions. Ha! :) Ameet Savant --- On Sun, 3/1/09, jimbir wrote: > From: jimbir <jimbir(at)yahoo.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: found some old pics > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 8:39 AM > > > Hi Walt. What a beautiful plane! ... >Jim Birke. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=232576#232576 > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: FREE Pietenpol
Date: Mar 01, 2009
If interested in FREE Pietenpol parts go to Barnstormers.com and look under experimental. They were just listed a short time ago. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike Whaley" <MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Pietenpols, RVs, and Hockey
Date: Mar 01, 2009
> We Piet builders are a tough bunch and think (almost) nothing of > acquiring a few cuts, bruises and lacerations during a building > session obviously unlike those wimpy RV builders. Kind of like > those NHL player holdouts that refused to wear helmets until > the NHL made them. Just in case anyone's confused, here's a quick guide: ** Pietenpol Builder: Thinks nothing of putting his/her hands mere inches from a saw blade capable of removing his entire hand in a millisecond. ** RV Builder: Thinks nothing of putting his/her money into the hands of a CNC shop capable of ruining an entire sheet of aluminum in a millisecond. ** Hockey Player: Thinks nothing of putting his hands through his opponent's face shield and removing his entire nose in a millisecond. ** Pietenpol Builder: Spends hours laboriously planning the next step and how to interpret the plans. ** RV Builder: Spends hours laboriously planning the next golfing vacation. ** Hockey Player: Spends hours laboriously planning the next team he wants to be traded to. ** Pietenpol Builder: Carefully measures, cuts, fits, mixes glue, clamps, and assembles each piece lovingly. ** RV Builder: Carefully measures, then plucks a bolt out of the box and squeezes the trigger of the cordless screwdriver lovingly. ** Hockey Player: Carefully measures just how hard of a hit it will take to disassemble the face of his opponent. ** Pietenpol Builder: Looks for authentic-looking vintage style instruments to suit the overall feel of the design. ** RV Builder: Looks for authentic-looking vintage style glass panels to suit the overall feel of the pocketbook. ** Hockey Player: Looks for an authentic-looking glass eye to suit the overall feel of his one good one. ** Pietenpol Builder: Often calls upon other builders for their ideas, methods, and suggestions. ** RV Builder: Often calls upon a 1-800 number for lead times, prices, and options. ** Hockey Player: Often calls upon the other team with a variety of colorful ideas, insults, and unprintable suggestions. ** Pietenpol Builder: At risk of serious cuts from the aircraft construction process, and accepts that it earns you extra credit. ** RV Builder: At risk of serious papercuts from the aircraft financing process, and hopes they accept your credit so it doesn't cost you extra. ** Hockey Player: At risk of serious cuts from going to work, and accepts that an assist earns you a little bit of credit. ** Pietenpol Builder: Looks for every possible way to get the job done in a lightweight, attractive, and innovative way that will hold up for years. ** RV Builder: Looks for every possible way to get the component clecoed before dinnertime. ** Hockey Player: Looks for every possible way to get the other team's captain ejected before second period. ** Pietenpol Builder: Has a wide variety of engines to select from. ** RV Builder: Has a wide variety of engine gauges to select from. ** Hockey Player: Has a wide variety of penalty minutes to choose from. ** Pietenpol Builder: Has a library of books on hand which are occasionally used for ideas on ways to get the job done. ** RV Builder: Has a library of catalogs on hand which are often used to overnight the parts for the next day's work. ** Hockey Player: Has a library card, and is rather fond of the section on anger management. ** Pietenpol Builder: Knows the important differences between Sitka Spruce, Douglas Fir, and Ash. ** RV Builder: Knows the important differences between Leatherette, Velour, and Naugahyde. ** Hockey Player: Knows the important differences between left jabs, right hooks, and sucker punches. ** Pietenpol Builder: Has a real, personal connection to the history of aviation, when skilled craftsmen produced aircraft piece-by-piece. ** RV Builder: Has a real, personal connection to the history of their checking account, when skilled phone operators billed you for each section piece-by-piece. ** Hockey Player: Has a real, personal connection to the history of hockey, when skilled players lost body parts piece-by-piece. ** Pietenpol Builder: Doesn't mind flying low and slow, because it's all about having fun. ** RV Builder: Wouldn't be caught dead flying low and slow, because it's all about having fun. ** Hockey Player: Doesn't mind skating low and slow, because it's all about beating the hell out of the other guy while scoring lots of goals. ** Pietenpol Builder: Feels no shame in making his plane look like he/she wants it to look, knowing that no two Piets are alike. ** RV Builder: Feels no shame in making his plane look like he/she wants it to look, knowing that there's probably no more than five or eight other RV's that look just like it. ** Hockey Player: Feels no shame, except when he gets sent to the penalty boxlate and it costs the team the game. ** Pietenpol Builder: Saw and glue, saw and glue, saw and glue, saw and glue, saw and glue... ** RV Builder: Rivet and buck, rivet and buck, rivet and buck, rivet and buck, rivet and buck... ** Hockey Player: Hit the puck, hit the puck, hit the puck, hit the puck, hit the puck and then cream the goalie and make sure the penalty is worth it! ** Pietenpol Builder: Knows that his/her aircraft represents a riveting tale of adventure. ** RV Builder: Knows that his/her aircraft represents a lot of adventurous riveting in the tail. ** Hockey Player: Knows that his team runs a lot of riveting ads that entail dentures. ** Pietenpol Builder: Sees this list, realizes it's completely tongue-in-cheek, and steps next door to show the guy building an RV while waiting for the glue to cure. ** RV Builder: Sees the list the Pietenpol builder next door brought over, wonders if the guy's been sniffing glue, and hopes he gets cured. ** Hockey Player: Sees this list, wonders what the heck a Pietenpol is, and what it has to do with building motor homes. All completely tongue in cheek, of course... I really DO like RV's and their builders... honest!! And... Go Lightning!!! Mike Whaley MerlinFAC(at)cfl.rr.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpols, RVs, and Hockey
Date: Mar 01, 2009
Outstanding!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Whaley To: Pietenpol List Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpols, RVs, and Hockey > We Piet builders are a tough bunch and think (almost) nothing of > acquiring a few cuts, bruises and lacerations during a building > session obviously unlike those wimpy RV builders. Kind of like > those NHL player holdouts that refused to wear helmets until > the NHL made them. Just in case anyone's confused, here's a quick guide: ** Pietenpol Builder: Thinks nothing of putting his/her hands mere inches from a saw blade capable of removing his entire hand in a millisecond. ** RV Builder: Thinks nothing of putting his/her money into the hands of a CNC shop capable of ruining an entire sheet of aluminum in a millisecond. ** Hockey Player: Thinks nothing of putting his hands through his opponent's face shield and removing his entire nose in a millisecond. ** Pietenpol Builder: Spends hours laboriously planning the next step and how to interpret the plans. ** RV Builder: Spends hours laboriously planning the next golfing vacation. ** Hockey Player: Spends hours laboriously planning the next team he wants to be traded to. ** Pietenpol Builder: Carefully measures, cuts, fits, mixes glue, clamps, and assembles each piece lovingly. ** RV Builder: Carefully measures, then plucks a bolt out of the box and squeezes the trigger of the cordless screwdriver lovingly. ** Hockey Player: Carefully measures just how hard of a hit it will take to disassemble the face of his opponent. ** Pietenpol Builder: Looks for authentic-looking vintage style instruments to suit the overall feel of the design. ** RV Builder: Looks for authentic-looking vintage style glass panels to suit the overall feel of the pocketbook. ** Hockey Player: Looks for an authentic-looking glass eye to suit the overall feel of his one good one. ** Pietenpol Builder: Often calls upon other builders for their ideas, methods, and suggestions. ** RV Builder: Often calls upon a 1-800 number for lead times, prices, and options. ** Hockey Player: Often calls upon the other team with a variety of colorful ideas, insults, and unprintable suggestions. ** Pietenpol Builder: At risk of serious cuts from the aircraft construction process, and accepts that it earns you extra credit. ** RV Builder: At risk of serious papercuts from the aircraft financing process, and hopes they accept your credit so it doesn't cost you extra. ** Hockey Player: At risk of serious cuts from going to work, and accepts that an assist earns you a little bit of credit. ** Pietenpol Builder: Looks for every possible way to get the job done in a lightweight, attractive, and innovative way that will hold up for years. ** RV Builder: Looks for every possible way to get the component clecoed before dinnertime. ** Hockey Player: Looks for every possible way to get the other team's captain ejected before second period. ** Pietenpol Builder: Has a wide variety of engines to select from. ** RV Builder: Has a wide variety of engine gauges to select from. ** Hockey Player: Has a wide variety of penalty minutes to choose from. ** Pietenpol Builder: Has a library of books on hand which are occasionally used for ideas on ways to get the job done. ** RV Builder: Has a library of catalogs on hand which are often used to overnight the parts for the next day's work. ** Hockey Player: Has a library card, and is rather fond of the section on anger management. ** Pietenpol Builder: Knows the important differences between Sitka

February 11, 2009 - March 01, 2009

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