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Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ht
June 24, 2009 - July 02, 2009

ll prior to assembly. (like on the spars)- There will be cases when you'l l need to drill free hand, but the vast majority can be done on the drill p ress, if you plan right.- Additionally, you can buy a complete set of var ious size and grit drum sanders to use on the press and you won't need to b uy a separate bench sander.- - Of course, if you buy bulk and make all of your own pieces, then you'll nee d a table saw, planer, etc. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2009
Subject: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way before: 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is the correct 'Me"? 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the center of the log... 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when shopping for DF? OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a peetenhauller or something..." And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS lumber yard. I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here locally... Any advice always deeply appreciated. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Mark go to a local lumberyard that stocks multiple varieties of wood. I bought all of mine including some cedar for the turtledeck stringers from a local lumberyard called Mead-Clark. They also ordered 3mm (1/8 inch) and 6mm (1/4 inch) marine mahogony for me. I paid about a third of the price for the marine ply that you would pay if you bought it from AS&S or any of the aircraft houses. The kiln dried Doug Fir total cost was right at $300 for it all (not including the sheets of ply mentioned above). They also allowed me to go through their DF and select the boards I wanted. All of mine were very good quarter sawn planks. I know some of the local lumberyards won't let you select from their stock but there are some that will. Good luck finding one. Also ask Gary Boothe where he got his popular; from his photos it all looked very good as well. Jim B. On Jun 24, 2009, mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com wrote: Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way before: 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is the correct 'Me"? 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the center of the log... 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when shopping for DF? OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a peetenhauller or something..." And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS lumber yard. I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here locally... Any advice always deeply appreciated. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2009
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Jim. I haven't htought about the plywood yet. I was wondering what i'd ask for if not ordering from AS&S... Thanks! Mark On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Jim wrote: > > > Jim Boyer > Santa Rosa, CA > Pietenpol builder with Corvair > > Mark go to a local lumberyard that stocks multiple varieties of wood. I bought all of mine including some cedar for the turtledeck stringers from a local lumberyard called Mead-Clark. They also ordered 3mm (1/8 inch) and 6mm (1/4 inch) marine mahogony for me. I paid about a third of the price for the marine ply that you would pay if you bought it from AS&S or any of the aircraft houses. The kiln dried Doug Fir total cost was right at $300 for it all (not including the sheets of ply mentioned above). They also allowed me to go through their DF and select the boards I wanted. All of mine were very good quarter sawn planks. I know some of the local lumberyards won't let you select from their stock but there are some that will. Good luck finding one. Also ask Gary Boothe where he got his popular; from his photos it all looked very good as well. > Jim B. > > > On Jun 24, 2009, mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com wrote: > > Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some > wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started > now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA > wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport > Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection > (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my > local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one > pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. > > So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way before: > > 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any > potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, > that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish > this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 > months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it > won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is > the correct 'Me"? > > 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 > x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but > wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that > 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the > proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain > direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not > really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without > verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading > correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be > rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the > center of the log... > > 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my > question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the > train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber > yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very > smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my > memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when > shopping for DF? > > > OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the > contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood > specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, > really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring > him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of > Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can > "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was > hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my > website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side > of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, > I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x > 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. > Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I > know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, > I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not > kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a > peetenhauller or something..." > > And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS > lumber yard. > > I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here locally... > > Any advice always deeply appreciated. > > Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2009
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Mark, go to Higgin's Lumber in Fresno.- They will be able to help you. --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Mark Roberts wrote: From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:31 PM Thanks Jim. I haven't htought about the plywood yet. I was wondering what i'd ask for if not ordering from AS&S... Thanks! Mark On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Jim wrote: > > > Jim Boyer > Santa Rosa, CA > Pietenpol builder with Corvair > > Mark go to a local -lumberyard that stocks multiple varieties of wood. I bought all of mine including some cedar for the turtledeck stringers from a local lumberyard called Mead-Clark. They also ordered 3mm (1/8 inch) and 6mm (1/4 inch) marine mahogony for me. I paid about a third of the price f or the marine ply that you would pay if you bought it from AS&S or any of t he aircraft houses. The kiln dried Doug Fir total cost was right at $300 fo r it all (not including the sheets of ply mentioned above). They also allow ed me to go through their DF and select the boards I wanted. All of mine we re very good quarter sawn planks. I know some of the local lumberyards won' t let you select from their stock but there are some that will. Good luck f inding one. Also ask Gary Boothe where he got his popular; from his photos it all looked very good as well. > Jim B. > > > On Jun 24, 2009, mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com wrote: > > > Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some > wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started > now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA > wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport > Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection > (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my > local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one > pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. > > So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way bef ore: > > 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any > potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, > that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish > this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 > months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it > won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." - What is > the correct 'Me"? > > 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 > x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but > wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that > 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the > proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain > direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not > really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without > verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading > correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be > rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the > center of the log... > > 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my > question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the > train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber > yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very > smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my > memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when > shopping for DF? > > > OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the > contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood > specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, > really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring > him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of > Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can > "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was > hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my > website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side > of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, > I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x > 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. > Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I > know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, > I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not > kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a > peetenhauller or something..." > > And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS > lumber yard. > > I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here locally ... > > Any advice always deeply appreciated. > > Mark > > le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 2009
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Mike.I called them a couple of days ago and one of their sales reps said to fax her a list and she'd see what they could get in Sitka Spruce. I didn't ask her about fir, and I bet they have that in stock. Thanks for the reminder about them. I'll call tomorrow... Mark On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Michael Groah wrote: > Mark, go to Higgin's Lumber in Fresno. They will be able to help you. > > > --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > > From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:31 PM > > > Thanks Jim. I haven't htought about the plywood yet. I was wondering > what i'd ask for if not ordering from AS&S... > > Thanks! > > Mark > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Jim wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Jim Boyer >> Santa Rosa, CA >> Pietenpol builder with Corvair >> >> Mark go to a local lumberyard that stocks multiple varieties of wood. I >> bought all of mine including some cedar for the turtledeck stringers from a >> local lumberyard called Mead-Clark. They also ordered 3mm (1/8 inch) and 6mm >> (1/4 inch) marine mahogony for me. I paid about a third of the price for the >> marine ply that you would pay if you bought it from AS&S or any of the >> aircraft houses. The kiln dried Doug Fir total cost was right at $300 for it >> all (not including the sheets of ply mentioned above). They also allowed me >> to go through their DF and select the boards I wanted. All of mine were very >> good quarter sawn planks. I know some of the local lumberyards won't let you >> select from their stock but there are some that will. Good luck finding one. >> Also ask Gary Boothe where he got his popular; from his photos it all looked >> very good as well. >> Jim B. >> >> >> On Jun 24, 2009, mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com wrote: >> >> Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some >> wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started >> now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA >> wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport >> Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection >> (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my >> local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one >> pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. >> >> So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way >> before: >> >> 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any >> potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, >> that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish >> this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 >> months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it >> won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is >> the correct 'Me"? >> >> 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 >> x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but >> wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that >> 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the >> proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain >> direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not >> really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without >> verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading >> correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be >> rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the >> center of the log... >> >> 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my >> question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the >> train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber >> yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very >> smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my >> memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when >> shopping for DF? >> >> >> OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the >> contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood >> specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, >> really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring >> him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of >> Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can >> "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was >> hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my >> website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side >> of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, >> I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x >> 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. >> Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I >> know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, >> I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not >> kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a >> peetenhauller or something..." >> >> And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS >> lumber yard. >> >> I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here >> locally... >> >> Any advice always deeply appreciated. >> >> Mark >> >> > &gvigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigato > - MATRONICS WEBnbsp;- List Contribution Web Site ; > &nb; http:======================= > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 24, 2009
4X4, 1X6, etc is what's known as "nominal" size and it's called that because the original rough cut piece was that exact size. Once it has been planed, whether as you buy it or plane it yourself the real, measured dimension is now 3 1/3" X 3 1/2" or 3/4" X 5 1/2". So you're not gonna get four one inch square pieces out of that 4X4 you bought. To minimize warpage the grain should be as close to 90 to the face side on a wide board like a wing spar or 90 across a square piece like a fuselage stringer. Fir can be a bit of a crap shoot due to the presence of pitch pockets. They come in all sizes and can hide in the smallest piece of wood. I used Hemlock which is used mainly as trim wood. In shorter lengths for the tail feathers, cap strips, fuselage cross bracing, it's easy to find straight, clear grain. The longerons are a tad more difficult. I used 1 1/16"X 1 1/16" lengths. Wonderful stuff to work with. Oh, yes, it also is made in 1/4"X 1/2" strips. I lucked into a fuel filter with 3/8" fittings. With the steel bowl and heavy filter it was quite heavy. I also found a " bowl" that came off a Chev truck wheel that is much lighter than the original. I've eliminated the huge filter element and will make a screen for it. I aquired some aeroquip made up hoses and 3/8" blue flare fittings for about ten bucks a while back. I've settled on the carb orientation so the throttle arm is where I want it and cut off one end of a hose, took apart the fitting, cut the hose to length and put the fitting on it. The carb is now 90 from where it is in the pic. The whole thing cost about $20. It just need a proper center bolt. Clif "Imagination grows by exercise, and contrary to common belief, is more powerful in the mature than in the young." ~ Sir Paul McCartney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Roberts" <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some > wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started > now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA > wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport > Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection > (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my > local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one > pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. > > So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way > before: > > 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any > potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, > that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish > this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 > months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it > won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is > the correct 'Me"? > > 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 > x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but > wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that > 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the > proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain > direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not > really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without > verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading > correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be > rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the > center of the log... > > 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my > question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the > train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber > yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very > smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my > memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when > shopping for DF? > > > OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the > contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood > specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, > really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring > him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of > Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can > "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was > hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my > website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side > of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, > I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x > 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. > Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I > know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, > I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not > kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a > peetenhauller or something..." > > And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS > lumber yard. > > I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here > locally... > > Any advice always deeply appreciated. > > Mark > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 12:49:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Bad me!
Date: Jun 24, 2009
Oops! I apologize. I got carried away and didn't cut the message stream from the last message. As John Cleese said a lot in Faulty Towers, "Silly Me!" Clif ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Wood for a peetenhauller
Date: Jun 24, 2009
Mark, Congratulations on ordering the plans for your "peetenhauller!" Life will never be the same... Next time you go to Home Depot, you need to go to the isle that has the Good Lumber. That's where you will find the poplar, fir, pine and oak that finish carpenters or cabinet makers are looking for. If you are seeing 2x4's and 4x4's, you're in the wrong aisle. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way before: 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is the correct 'Me"? 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the center of the log... 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when shopping for DF? OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a peetenhauller or something..." And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS lumber yard. I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here locally... Any advice always deeply appreciated. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 25, 2009
> I went to Home Depot today to test my > local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir Mark: Big Orange is ok to buy your cheapo plastic base table saw and other Chinese tools, but 99% of the lumber there is shear garbage and is not suited for building shipping palates, I hesitate to use any of it to build a deck let a lone a plane. They buy their lumber from the cheapest suppliers that can get them the largest volume for the lowest price. Quality control be dammed. Most of their lumber is cut from immature saplings, the kind you get two 2x4s out of one tree and is full of knots. Even their "select" trim is barely suited for strapping. For Fir I would look up a specialty lumberyard or even a flooring supplier though most of your stock there would be 3/4. Being on the left coast you should have an easier time locating good stock than us right coasters. Michael in soggy Maine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
The way I cut my longerons, I used 2x6 lumber and ripped 1.125 inch strips out of it, then ran the strip through the saw so I had a piece that was 1-1/8 inch square. I then ran this down the planer to get the 1 inch dimension. Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x lumber it would be a little easier to work with, Ben Charvet Clif Dawson wrote: > 4X4, 1X6, etc is what's known as "nominal" size and it's > called that because the original rough cut piece was that > exact size. Once it has been planed, whether as you buy > it or plane it yourself the real, measured dimension is > now 3 1/3" X 3 1/2" or 3/4" X 5 1/2". So you're not > gonna get four one inch square pieces out of that 4X4 > you bought. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: engine mount washers
Date: Jun 25, 2009
As long as you people are tossing famous quotes out there, here's mine: "Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?" I was getting ready to order some new engine mount bolts for the A75 and came across some info regarding the large flat washers that bear against the conical rubber mounts. There were AN970s on the mount before but I notice that they are too thin to remain flat under load and they show some cupping where the nut was bearing against them. Must be from all the G's that I've been pulling ;o) The official way to do it is with the "special" Teledyne Continental engine mount washers but those puppies are almost $10 apiece! I assume I can use any thick, flat washer for this duty so I'm going to look at grade 8 fender washers or anything that is about 1/8" thick unless somebody has found something else that works well here. Ideas? Thanks. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC soon to be A75 powered San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>
Subject: Model A fuel truck for sale
This really seems like something one of us Pieters should own: Ebay item 160343994686 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1929-Model-A-Ford-Aviation-fuel-truck-(Very-rare-Ford)_W0QQitemZ160343994686QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090623?IMSfp=TL0906231510002r17035#ht_500wt_939 Steve Ruse Norman, OK ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: jb.spiegel(at)us.schneider-electric.com
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Mark, It never hurts to check the big box stores, I got the wood for my cap strips from Menards in the form of a 4x4 12 feet long perfect grain, excellent run out. Also look for Vertical Grain Doug Fir flooring, depending on stock width using a thin kerf blade you can cut your cap strips from that. Look in the yellow pages for a sawmill since you live in California, there should not be a problem finding one that has rough cut lumber. as a side note when you start cutting your cap strips where ever you stack them place a big sign on them that says "Don't Touch". I had a dozen and a half sitting on the back side of the table saw fence, my son came over looking for some stakes for marking the rows in his garden. He thought "hey" trimmings, so now I get to go back and find some more flooring. Jake ________________________________________________________________________________
From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
Subject: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Mark, I got all my Sitka Spruce locally from a company here in Salt Lake city called MacBeth Hardwoods. It is beautiful wood, all vertical grain and they sell it in 2x6 and 1x12 boards 16ft long. It is rough sawn so it is the actual dimensions. They also carry all the ply one needs for the Piet. I would only use big box store wood for the mock-pit. My 2 cents. Brian SLC-UT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: engine mount washers
Oscar-- I used hardware store thicker fender washers (anodized) and they worked fine. Also used extras on the left and upper mounts to give me some right thrust and downthrust. I couldn't bring myself to build in all that downwash he calls for on his Continental motor mount drawing but made up for it a bit by washering the engine down a bit. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Re: Building with wood question
Certainly my recommendation also. I am building in poplar and for $79.00 I got 2 poplar planks S3 1x12" X 12' which when ripped on my table saw provided enough sticks to build the entire fuse structure. So I had cash to purchase more tools and other needed items. like my miter saw, probably my most favorite shop tool, indispensable and you don't have to build a bunch of gigs to get the angles you need. I bought all Ryobi tools on sale at the big Orange box store so again trying to make my cash go as far as possible, FYI I am building in the basement so no room or money to spare. I did the same thing with my spars and got them in 16' X 5 qtr rough 10" wide , they couldn't be put through the planer or jointer due to the length cut down and routed to size which is where the router cam in really handy Now you have to remember my bench is made from an old Library table 10' long and an old door I had in the basement covered with 3/4 particle board end to end for my little more than 16'. So you don't have to spend a fortune on wood if you can improvise in all your work area and the approach. Every dollar you save in one area is another dollar you can reallocate to another piece or part that you are forced to purchase. Cant say I have any regrets so far and really like working with the poplar, takes the glue really well and doesn't split out or splinter as easily as other woods, clear strong and inexpensive to work with, you got to love that John **************Shop Popular Dell Laptops now starting at $349! bleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215910283%3B38350812%3Ba) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Re: WACO fly-in
" I don't take kids up alone" **************Shop Popular Dell Laptops now starting at $349! bleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215910283%3B38350812%3Ba) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Re: Wood for a peetenhauller
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Gary. I know the row of lumber you mean... I went down that aisle and found the nice plained poplar and some oak.... Now there's a nice wood for a piet... Some fine grain oak. I thought to myself: "Pretty, but a tad heavy..." :o) My Twin daughters just graduated from High School a couple of weeks ago, and when they were born 18 years ago I made 2 cradles from oak for them. Beautiful stuff. In fact, the guy that is going to help me rip boards was the guy that helped me make those cradles. He made one like them for his daughter when she was born, and I wanted one for my kids. Lotsa fun. Not quite as much as a piet, so I can't wait for those plans to arrive! Thanks for the advice. I am going back to the store as I consider Poplar, or fir. On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > Mark, > > Congratulations on ordering the plans for your "peetenhauller!" Life will > never be the same... > > Next time you go to Home Depot, you need to go to the isle that has the > Good > Lumber. That's where you will find the poplar, fir, pine and oak that > finish > carpenters or cabinet makers are looking for. If you are seeing 2x4's and > 4x4's, you're in the wrong aisle. > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > Roberts > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:36 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > > Plans were ordered yesterday, and I am now looking to go get some > wood. I believe I am going to give doug fir a try. I can get started > now with Doug Fir, and perhaps some poplar as well. I have the EAA > wood book, and also one of the Tony B. books on Building Sport > Aircraft. I have read the articles about wood and it's selection > (grain direction and run out). I went to Home Depot today to test my > local supply and found they only have Green Doug Fir for all but one > pile of 2 x 4's which were kiln dried. > > So I have a few questions from those of you that have walked this way > before: > > 1. I am assuming I will need to buy Kiln Dried wood to prevent any > potential warping of structures after assembly. Part of me says "Yep, > that's right" ... Another part of me says " You ain't gonna finish > this plane until 3 good Fresno Summers (90+ degrees for about 4 > months) and once the fuse structure is in it's framework state it > won't warp because it will be in the structural matrix..." What is > the correct 'Me"? > > 2. Clear Doug Fir, or the stuff on the rack: I saw a few 2 x 4's and 4 > x 4's that appeared to have the correct grain density and run out, but > wrong grain direction for the board it was cut into. However, if that > 4 x 4 was cut into the proper sized 1 x 1's, they would have the > proper grain direction for the longerons. I am assuming that the grain > direction is relative to the board that ultimately gets used, not > really the initial cut. I know this seems obvious, but without > verification, I am not sure I am interpreting what I am reading > correctly. It seems logical that all the wood produced could be > rift-cut lumber if you could saw the log into boards radiallydown the > center of the log... > > 3. Knots in the wood: I know the literature deals with this, but my > question is more about Doug fir: the stuff I used to load from the > train cars in Fayetteville NC when I worked in my youth as a lumber > yard sales guy used to be very nice and pretty. Few knots and very > smooth. The stuff I saw at Home Depot was not like the stuff in my > memory. Do you guys have any recommendations for what to ask for when > shopping for DF? > > > OK... Now a funny aside: I stopped a guy that worked there at the > contractors booth to ask about what I could get if I ordered the wood > specially. We discussed the purpose was to build an airplane. "No, > really: What are you going to use this for?" he asks. After assuring > him I was not crazy, and leading him to a website to view a couple of > Piets in construction, he calls his wood supplier to see if he can > "still get the smooth stuff in those sizes". The conversation was > hysterical, and I wished I had it recorded so I could post on my > website so yo could hear it, as a one sided conversation from my side > of the counter. "Yeah hi Sandy, it's John. Fine, and you? Great. Yeah, > I have this guy here looking for some clear Doug Fir, in 2 x 4 and 4 x > 4 16's and 8's, and I need to know if you have any really clean ones. > Un huh. Yeah. Doug Fir. No, he needs them with no knots. Clean. I > know. No, he's building an airplane. An Airplane. No a real one. No, > I'm not kidding. Really. I saw it on the internet. No Sandy, I'm not > kidding. Look, can you see if you can find some? No, it's called a > peetenhauller or something..." > > And on it went. Can you imagine what BHP must have gone through at HIS > lumber yard. > > I might be needing to shop at a more specialized lumber yard here > locally... > > Any advice always deeply appreciated. > > Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Computer program to analyze stresses...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
This isn't a commercial for a software program, but I got this in my inbox today, and I thought it was interesting. As we all have been discussing the various merits of wood and it's respective strengths, I have wondered what that would mean in the actual operation of a Piet. You know, we discuss the substitution of poplar in the longerons, and say it's not as strong as Sitka Spruce, but hey, the plane was over designed anyway... etc. This program does structural analysis on CAD drawings and tells you stuff about the design. I watched part of one of the videos, and thought it was pretty cool. They are selling it for $149 (from a $499 retail price) so it isn't out of the realm of purchasability... Anyway, for what it's worth to any of you: http://www.turbocad.com/TurboCAD/Addons/CADCALCS20/tabid/618/Default.aspx?CID=415773 Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Continental Motor mount plans-- downthrust specifically
For any of you (like Greg Cardinal) FLYING behind Continental motor mounts that you built from Pietenpol plans, did you build in the downthrust as per pla ns---if so, any comments ? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: engine mount washers
Oscar, IMO the grade 8 fender washers would work just great, and I'd look first at Tractor Supply. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> >Sent: Jun 25, 2009 8:14 AM >To: Pietenpol List >Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine mount washers > > >As long as you people are tossing famous quotes out there, >here's mine: "Where are we going? And what's with this >handbasket?" > >I was getting ready to order some new engine mount bolts for >the A75 and came across some info regarding the large flat >washers that bear against the conical rubber mounts. There >were AN970s on the mount before but I notice that they are >too thin to remain flat under load and they show some >cupping where the nut was bearing against them. Must be from >all the G's that I've been pulling ;o) The official >way to do it is with the "special" Teledyne Continental >engine mount washers but those puppies are almost $10 apiece! > >I assume I can use any thick, flat washer for this duty so >I'm going to look at grade 8 fender washers or anything that >is about 1/8" thick unless somebody has found something else >that works well here. Ideas? Thanks. > >Oscar Zuniga >Air Camper NX41CC >soon to be A75 powered >San Antonio, TX >mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com >website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Mark Roberts
So Mark are you retired or do you just have an abundance of energy and time ? Congratulations on ordering your plans. One thing I always, always, strongly advise is to get the complete book set from EAA that Tony Bingelis wrote. There are four books and if you were locked in a phone booth with those boo ks you would never need to log onto a list or consult anyone during the construction of your airplane. I heard so much mis-information or old wives tales when building my Piet th at whenever I went on to another section of my plane I always read up on it FIRST in the Tony Bingelis books ---and the truth is always found there with multiple ways and cost levels of approaching a task. Those books we re invaluable to making my plane without doubts in my head about acceptable materials, hardware, fabrics, cables, gl ue, you name it. http://shop.eaa.org/html/publications_howto.html?cart_id= Then scr oll down Tony Bingelis Books Engines A treasure of information for all aircraft builders, restorers and mechanic s. Here are all the right answers at your fingertips. (224 pages) Qty F15691 Book $27.99* [cid:image001.gif(at)01C9F598.E8382EC0] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Re: Mark Roberts
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Hey Mike: No, I am not retired (I wish), and I don't have an abundance of time or energy. I am just at the 'compulsive' stage of my project where it is about all I think of if I am not on the phone or in a meeting. The ADD medicine isn't working as well as it used to :o) Real productive for my boss, huh. I hope my exuberance isn't an annoyance. I am just working things out in my mind so I can get started. By the way, I love the pictures of your plane and the modifications you've made to it. I was with Mike Groah last Friday and he pointed me to your plane as an example of a few of the modifications he has made and I will be doing as well. Thanks for the advice on the Bingelis books. I have one: the Sportplane Builder, and will on your advice get the rest. I'll try to control my posting... I didn't realize it was getting so frequent! :o) Mark On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] wrote: > So Mark are you retired or do you just have an abundance of energy and time > ? > > > Congratulations on ordering your plans. > > > One thing I always, always, strongly advise is to get the complete book set > from EAA that Tony Bingelis wrote. > > There are four books and if you were locked in a phone booth with those > books you would never need to log > > onto a list or consult anyone during the construction of your airplane. > > > I heard so much mis-information or old wives tales when building my Piet > that whenever I went on to another > > section of my plane I always read up on it FIRST in the Tony Bingelis > books---and the truth is always found there > > with multiple ways and cost levels of approaching a task. Those books > were invaluable to making my plane without > > doubts in my head about acceptable materials, hardware, fabrics, cables, > glue, you name it. > > > http://shop.eaa.org/html/publications_howto.html?cart_id= Then scroll > down > > Tony Bingelis Books > > Engines > A treasure of information for all aircraft builders, restorers and > mechanics. Here are all the right answers at your fingertips. (224 pages) > Qty F15691Book $27.99* > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: engine mount washers
For specialty washers like that make your own.- Buy or borrow a hole saw about the approximate size and cut some out of some scrap steel sheet, 4130 etc (assuming you have some lying around).- Then drill or ream the hole in the washer to the correct size. and wala.- Make sure to paint them to keep them from rusting.- Use .090 or so and you should be good.- You co uld even make them out of several different thicknesses to fine tune or shi m as required.- But then again it is probably much eaiser to just buy the m at the hardware store.- Just a thought. - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Mark Roberts
That was kind of Mike Groah to refer to my Piet but I can't take total credit for many of the modifications since some of them simply came from other builders who had come before me. I took what I liked best in other Piets I saw and then added a few of my own ideas. One idea that I REALLY liked was raising the turtle deck and instrument panels by 1" higher than plans. I like the look of the turtledeck better-- more rounded and then there is more room for instruments in the back panel and the windscreen's are a tad higher. I fully understand being compulsive and enthused at the beginnings of a project and it really is a neat little airplane-- you just make me envious of your energy and enthusiasm to learn. Now go take your medicine :)) Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Re: Mark Roberts
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
:oD Medicine! THAT's what I forgot this morning... I sometimes remind myself of the fish in FInding Nemo... Every 3 seconds she had forgotten what she was doing and was on to the next thing... I sometimes remind myself of the fish in Finding Nemo... Oh wait... I just said that... :o) Mark On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] wrote: > > That was kind of Mike Groah to refer to my Piet but I can't take total credit for many > of the modifications since some of them simply came from other builders who had come > before me. I took what I liked best in other Piets I saw and then added a few of my > own ideas. > > One idea that I REALLY liked was raising the turtle deck and instrument panels by 1" higher > than plans. I like the look of the turtledeck better-- more rounded and then there is more > room for instruments in the back panel and the windscreen's are a tad higher. > > I fully understand being compulsive and enthused at the beginnings of a project and it really > is a neat little airplane-- you just make me envious of your energy and enthusiasm to learn. > Now go take your medicine :)) > > Mike C. > in Ohio > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mark Roberts
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Jun 25, 2009
I know the feeling Mark... I'm torn between several parts of my Piet build right now. I am tearing down an engine, putting the finishing touches on wing ribs and preparing the shop for a wood delivery, not to mention all the reading material (books, manuals and this site, where I usually camp during the work day). It is all so fun and rewarding... just not enough hours in the day. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250004#250004 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Nose Bowl, Poplar Grove
Hello Group, Does anyone on the list know who ended up with Gary Bell's sty rofoam nose bowl "mold".- I remember Dad gave it to a Pietenpol Builder i n Poplar Grove When we made our attempt at Brodhead 2006.- It was just a foam plug that he laid the glass over and then gel coated.- I thought it was Kurt Shipman, but I guess not.- I do remember it was a Corvair Piet b uilder in Poplar Grove, and Dad gave it away at Poplar Grove, just before w e tore the wings off and put the piet on a trailer to head home.- I just was wondering because I was contacted off list as to the origins of Dad's n ose bowl, and thought it would save them some time.- - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Scott Knowlton <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: and don't forget those Canadian's eh ?
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: and don't forget those Canadian's eh ? From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com Date: Wed=2C 24 Jun 2009 23:14:21 +0000 "No sir everything I make goes into the building a new airplane for air acr obatics" Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From: John Hofmann Date: Wed=2C 24 Jun 2009 14:43:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: and don't forget those Canadian's eh ? Actually because of the exchange rate it is only the 86.4 year anniversary of flight in Canada. I'm here all week folks. Try the veal and don't forget to tip your waiter. "Is that all you plan to do for the rest of your life? Just cash for rides? " Do not archve. John Hofmann Vice-President=2C Information Technology The Rees Group=2C Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive=2C Ste 3800 Madison=2C WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com On Jun 24=2C 2009=2C at 2:22 PM=2C Cuy=2C Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerosp ace Corporation] wrote: And not to leave out the first 100th year anniversary of flight in Canada E AA is having some special doings at Oshkosh to celebrate that event that took place in 1 909. Bill Church is our resident Pietenpol poster boy and I think Harvey Rule too. Were yo u there for that first flight Harve ? http://www.eaa.org/news/2009/2009-02-23_canada.asp href="http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" style="color: blue=3B text-decoration : underline=3B ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List blue=3B text-decoration: underline=3B ">http://forums.matronics.com style="color: blue=3B text-decoration: underline=3B ">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion ========= )=AD=E6=DF=A2{l=8B7=B6r=89h=AFM4=D3M=1Fi=C7=9C =A2=EAz=B9=DE=C1=CA.=AE'=ABN=17=8F=89=EB^=9E=9A%.+-=12f=A2=94Z+=BAe=2Cz =D8^1=ABk=A2x=9C=B0=B8=AC=B4W=9A=B6=EA=DE=B0=D6=AF=8A=06=AD=A2=BBhn=BA0=B1 =EBazf=A7=C8=B8=AC=B6=EBb'+bz=CB.r=16=AC.+-R=7F=D2=B9=BB=1C=AE*m=8A=89=C0 =AD=C8b=BD=E4=9Ej=B7!=0E=8C''=86=9D=EC6=B2=06=BA0=B1=E0=A1j=D1@@=F8h=B6 =8B!j=B7=9A=9D=D9=AEr=19=AEr=19=A8=AD=E6=A1=AD=E7=E1=B6=DA=7F=FF 0=99=ABk =A2x=9C=B1=CA&=FC=D6=AF=8A=06=AD=A2=B3z=D7=A7=89K=8A=CBa=B6=DA=7F=FF 0=99=ABk=A2x=9C=B1=CA&=FC=D6=AF=8A=06=AD=A2=B3z=D7=A7=89K=8A=CB=7Fh =C0=13D=E3H %=84=04S=91P=C4=92jg =AD=E6=ADr=89=EDz{Z'=CA=1A=BD=A8=A5i=B9^ =BE&=AD=85=E5=9ElZ+=BAk=1A=86=B7=9F=86=DBi=FF=F7=E8=AE=E9=AC=99=ABk=A2x=9C =B1=CA&=86=DBi=FF=F7=E8=AE=E9=AC=99=ABk=A2x=9C=B1=CA&=FD=A2=B2=D0=A8=9E =DAn=EBb=A2u=9Em(=ADy8Z=9EL=A8=B9=FA+=CA=8B=AB=81=E9=DE=AE=8B=AC=B2=EAi =A2=BBLj=DBC=AD=A9ex=B8=AC=B4=07f=8Av=A1=AD=E7=E1=B6=DA=7F=FF 0=99=ABk=A2x =9C=B1=CA&=FD=CA'=B6=B8=9B=BA=D8=A8=9E=1Bm=A7=FF=F0=C3 =9A=B6=BA'=89=CB=1C =A2o=DC=A2{k=89=BB=AD=8A=89=FFk=F6=FF~=89=ED=FE=9A=DE=FD=BA=1D=CB=F8m=9A _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool=2C new character for your Windows Live=99 Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: corvair mounts
From: "skellytown flyer" <rhano(at)att.net>
Date: Jun 25, 2009
well I'm in the process of trying to get the engine back on my project I got from DJ. it was funny when I read the BPA newsletter and found that I had it finished and flying with a strange N number. I wish! anyway-I have the polyurethane mounts that it came with and the 3/8" bolts but I surely want to make some wear sleeves to go over the bolts to take up the space between the bolt and the case. it measures about .550" I.D. has anybody found anything really tough like a Teflon plastic sleeve in the right diameters? I know I can find some in larger diameters that are used to insulate bolts on large Pipe flanges.if necessary I can cut them down and roll them tighter but I'd rather it was solid.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250030#250030 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left to do on my fuselage. My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. Clif Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons > out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x lumber > it would be a little easier to work with, > > Ben Charvet ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
From: Grover Summers <oldaeroplaneworks(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CAD drawings
More data ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 25, 2009
Subject: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better choice than fir for the majority of the build. (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately :o\) Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Mark, you didn't say anything about a car, so I'm assuming this motor/ trans is just sitting out in the open. As you suspect, the fact that the carbs are only plugged with rags and the motor will not turn would suggest that water has run down through carbs, into the heads, and through the open valves into the cylinders. In addition to having pistons frozen in their bores it is highly likely that some (if not all) of the combustion chambers on the heads will be pitted, rendering them useless to you for an aircraft conversion. If the guy wants to just get it gone, it could be worth offering $25 or $50. It's possible the case, cam, or crank could be usable cores, and it can't hurt to have more of the misc small parts. You could also use a junk case later on down the line as a mockup if need be. Having said all that, I recall you saying earlier that you had not bought William's manual yet; I would put the $50 towards his conversion manual instead of this engine. I think the manual would be more useful to you at this point than a questionable core. Have a good day, Ryan Sent from my iPhone On Jun 26, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > > > > I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at > a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away > from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the > way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and > he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers > where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for > about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head > numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the > dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! > Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try > that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close > look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes > were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons > are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back > and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely > worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the > guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth > much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ > > Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary > Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute > wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted > to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong > than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a > bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better > choice than fir for the majority of the build. > > (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the > phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately > :o\) > > Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Mark, I can understand your excitement. I am also starting on my project but I am spending a lot less time and effort on it than you are (so envious!). I've been researching Poplar too and found that Sitka Spruce and Yellow Poplar at 12% moisture content are comparable in density. I believe it is near 28 lbs/cu ft, with the Poplar fractionally heavier. If you want to get an authoritative source on the subject there is none better than http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ You'll see why when you visit the link. They have amazing documentation on every aspect of building with wood. >From a numbers perspective the Poplar seems to be a almost direct replacement for Spruce, yet many designers stick with Spruce. I wonder why it is not as popular, especially given the cost. Regards, Ameet Omaha, NE --- On Fri, 6/26/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 > that Gary > Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential > substitute > wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and > just wanted > to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly > less strong > than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the > plane is a > bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a > better > choice than fir for the majority of the build. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
You're right, Clif. You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! (see attached sketch) I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" board. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... --> Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left to do on my fuselage. My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. Clif Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons > out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x > lumber it would be a little easier to work with, > > Ben Charvet ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Mark, Dittos to what Ryan said. Just finding a usable crank might be very beneficial down the road. Some guys find a good engine, just to learn that their crank is cracked or bent. There are other parts worth while, too. Such as the head covers, baffles, etc. My core came without both of those items. Good luck to you...and try to put a little more enthusiasm into your project! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine Mark, you didn't say anything about a car, so I'm assuming this motor/ trans is just sitting out in the open. As you suspect, the fact that the carbs are only plugged with rags and the motor will not turn would suggest that water has run down through carbs, into the heads, and through the open valves into the cylinders. In addition to having pistons frozen in their bores it is highly likely that some (if not all) of the combustion chambers on the heads will be pitted, rendering them useless to you for an aircraft conversion. If the guy wants to just get it gone, it could be worth offering $25 or $50. It's possible the case, cam, or crank could be usable cores, and it can't hurt to have more of the misc small parts. You could also use a junk case later on down the line as a mockup if need be. Having said all that, I recall you saying earlier that you had not bought William's manual yet; I would put the $50 towards his conversion manual instead of this engine. I think the manual would be more useful to you at this point than a questionable core. Have a good day, Ryan Sent from my iPhone On Jun 26, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > > > > I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at > a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away > from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the > way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and > he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers > where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for > about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head > numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the > dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! > Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try > that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close > look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes > were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons > are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back > and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely > worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the > guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth > much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ > > Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary > Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute > wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted > to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong > than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a > bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better > choice than fir for the majority of the build. > > (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the > phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately > :o\) > > Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: GN1 crash at Midway in TX
From: outofthebox50(at)yahoo.com
Date: Jun 26, 2009
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090624_wz_elliscocrash.f89d3b.html A friend of my dads manages this airport and told us about this. We didn't get the owner's name though. Jeremy in dallas Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Subject: Re: GN1 crash at Midway in TX
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
They mention the crash was in Ellis County, and that the registered owner is from Ovilla.... A search on faa.gov shows a GN-1, N1736, registered to a Mr. Robert Squires of Ovilla, TX. C-85 powered, which appears to match the picture, and completed in 2008. Thankfully he only recieved light injuries. I found it amusing when the writer states in the article that "the pilot was apparently not satisfied after landing his home-built aircraft and tried to take off again". I guess if you're fortunate enough to make it down in one piece then you better not look that gift horse in the mouth. :P Ryan On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:54 AM, wrote: > > > http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090624_wz_elliscocrash.f89d3b.html > > A friend of my dads manages this airport and told us about this. We didn't > get the owner's name though. > > Jeremy in dallas > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: corvair mounts
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Raymnd I think we bought the correct size from Aircraft Spruce. I'll check it in the next couple of days. We might have a little left over that I could mail to you, but let me check first. (it only takes a couple of inches for the 4 bolts) Barry Davis -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of skellytown flyer Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair mounts well I'm in the process of trying to get the engine back on my project I got from DJ. it was funny when I read the BPA newsletter and found that I had it finished and flying with a strange N number. I wish! anyway-I have the polyurethane mounts that it came with and the 3/8" bolts but I surely want to make some wear sleeves to go over the bolts to take up the space between the bolt and the case. it measures about .550" I.D. has anybody found anything really tough like a Teflon plastic sleeve in the right diameters? I know I can find some in larger diameters that are used to insulate bolts on large Pipe flanges.if necessary I can cut them down and roll them tighter but I'd rather it was solid.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250030#250030 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: CAD drawings
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Grover, Did you mistakenly send that message to the Piet List? I opened the CAD drawings you attached, and they do not appear to have any connection to the Piet. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grover Summers Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CAD drawings More data ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Pietenpol project, Ebay
For those who may be interested: - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pietenpol-Project-plane_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_t rkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q 3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4a98ab8227QQitemZ3203889 56711QQptZMotorsQ5fAircraft ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: John Franklin <jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com>
Subject: Re: GN1 crash at Midway in TX
Ryan, I met Bob Squires about 2 years ago and spent a couple of days at his place in Ovilla...you won't find a nicer couple than Bob and his wife. His maiden flight was this past May 27th, and he did all the right things getting certified, and he also got a lot of stick time in other tail draggers before flying. His engine was virtually new and I believe was certified. The damage looks extensive and I'll have to talk to him and see what his plans are; hate to see the Texas wing lose an Aircamper, but at least he walked away from it. John F. GN-1 / Corvair Richmond, TX -----Original Message----- >From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Jun 26, 2009 9:48 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: GN1 crash at Midway in TX > >They mention the crash was in Ellis County, and that the registered owner is >from Ovilla.... > >A search on faa.gov shows a GN-1, N1736, registered to a Mr. Robert Squires >of Ovilla, TX. C-85 powered, which appears to match the picture, and >completed in 2008. Thankfully he only recieved light injuries. > >I found it amusing when the writer states in the article that "the pilot was >apparently not satisfied after landing his home-built aircraft and tried to >take off again". I guess if you're fortunate enough to make it down in one >piece then you better not look that gift horse in the mouth. :P > >Ryan ________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol project, Ebay
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Funny. That project is located about five miles from my inlaws and a little over a half hour from Brodhead. He should truck up there and try to sell it. But not at that price. John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com On Jun 26, 2009, at 9:53 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > For those who may be interested: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pietenpol-Project-plane_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem4a98ab8227QQitemZ320388956711QQptZMotorsQ5fAircraft > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Thanks guys. Regarding the motor, I think I will tell the guy that I will come and get it for free, and If I find use in it somewhere, I'll send him some bucks. If he wants to keep the engine, fine. I was just so excited when the numbers turned out to be a 110, and then it wouldn't turn. :o\ I just want to say thanks to all you guys for absorbing some of my initial enthusiasm. I think it must be like a guy that starts out to walk from LA to NYC, and he's only one day into the walk. Everything is exciting. After a year of this I bet I'll be just humming along, quietly making engine noises as I glue sticks together. And, as I work near a computer most of the time, and I am thinking about this project, uh, most of the time, I post messages, uh, most of the time. I am going to the wood store today to smell wood. I will be referring to the wood book and the info I've been reading about Poplar to see what they have and how much it's gonna cost to get started. I'll worry about an engine later, as I can keep looking until the right one comes along. I just thought I had found a good one right out of the shoot. Thanks again for all of the help! Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:03 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > Mark, > > Dittos to what Ryan said. Just finding a usable crank might be very > beneficial down the road. Some guys find a good engine, just to learn that > their crank is cracked or bent. There are other parts worth while, too. Such > as the head covers, baffles, etc. My core came without both of those items. > > Good luck to you...and try to put a little more enthusiasm into your > project! > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:37 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine > > > Mark, you didn't say anything about a car, so I'm assuming this motor/ > trans is just sitting out in the open. As you suspect, the fact that > the carbs are only plugged with rags and the motor will not turn would > suggest that water has run down through carbs, into the heads, and > through the open valves into the cylinders. In addition to having > pistons frozen in their bores it is highly likely that some (if not > all) of the combustion chambers on the heads will be pitted, rendering > them useless to you for an aircraft conversion. > > If the guy wants to just get it gone, it could be worth offering $25 > or $50. It's possible the case, cam, or crank could be usable cores, > and it can't hurt to have more of the misc small parts. You could also > use a junk case later on down the line as a mockup if need be. Having > said all that, I recall you saying earlier that you had not bought > William's manual yet; I would put the $50 towards his conversion > manual instead of this engine. I think the manual would be more useful > to you at this point than a questionable core. Have a good day, > > Ryan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 26, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > >> > >> >> I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at >> a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away >> from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the >> way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and >> he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers >> where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for >> about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head >> numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the >> dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! >> Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try >> that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close >> look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes >> were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons >> are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back >> and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely >> worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the >> guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth >> much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ >> >> Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary >> Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute >> wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted >> to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong >> than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a >> bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better >> choice than fir for the majority of the build. >> >> (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the >> phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately >> :o\) >> >> Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford to get started :o) Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church wrote: > You're right, Clif. > You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! > (see attached sketch) > > I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" > board. > > Bill C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif > Dawson > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > --> > > Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". > And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than > working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left > to do on my fuselage. > > My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. > > Clif > > Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >> >> Ben Charvet > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Mark, I can make fun of your enthusiasm, because, after 15 months of building, I am more obsessed than ever. I go to sleep every night, and wake up every morning, thinking about my Piet! As far as I'm concerned, building a Pietenpol is "What I do." Work is something that occasionally interrupts (don't tell my boss!). If you decide to use poplar, you will have to purchase your longerons, uprights and diagonals from a lumber store. At Home Depot, you will find plenty of usable 1x2's or 1x4's to rib up into rib material. Building ribs alone will keep you busy for a couple months. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine Thanks guys. Regarding the motor, I think I will tell the guy that I will come and get it for free, and If I find use in it somewhere, I'll send him some bucks. If he wants to keep the engine, fine. I was just so excited when the numbers turned out to be a 110, and then it wouldn't turn. :o\ I just want to say thanks to all you guys for absorbing some of my initial enthusiasm. I think it must be like a guy that starts out to walk from LA to NYC, and he's only one day into the walk. Everything is exciting. After a year of this I bet I'll be just humming along, quietly making engine noises as I glue sticks together. And, as I work near a computer most of the time, and I am thinking about this project, uh, most of the time, I post messages, uh, most of the time. I am going to the wood store today to smell wood. I will be referring to the wood book and the info I've been reading about Poplar to see what they have and how much it's gonna cost to get started. I'll worry about an engine later, as I can keep looking until the right one comes along. I just thought I had found a good one right out of the shoot. Thanks again for all of the help! Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:03 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > Mark, > > Dittos to what Ryan said. Just finding a usable crank might be very > beneficial down the road. Some guys find a good engine, just to learn that > their crank is cracked or bent. There are other parts worth while, too. Such > as the head covers, baffles, etc. My core came without both of those items. > > Good luck to you...and try to put a little more enthusiasm into your > project! > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:37 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine > > > Mark, you didn't say anything about a car, so I'm assuming this motor/ > trans is just sitting out in the open. As you suspect, the fact that > the carbs are only plugged with rags and the motor will not turn would > suggest that water has run down through carbs, into the heads, and > through the open valves into the cylinders. In addition to having > pistons frozen in their bores it is highly likely that some (if not > all) of the combustion chambers on the heads will be pitted, rendering > them useless to you for an aircraft conversion. > > If the guy wants to just get it gone, it could be worth offering $25 > or $50. It's possible the case, cam, or crank could be usable cores, > and it can't hurt to have more of the misc small parts. You could also > use a junk case later on down the line as a mockup if need be. Having > said all that, I recall you saying earlier that you had not bought > William's manual yet; I would put the $50 towards his conversion > manual instead of this engine. I think the manual would be more useful > to you at this point than a questionable core. Have a good day, > > Ryan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 26, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > >> > >> >> I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at >> a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away >> from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the >> way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and >> he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers >> where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for >> about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head >> numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the >> dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! >> Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try >> that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close >> look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes >> were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons >> are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back >> and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely >> worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the >> guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth >> much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ >> >> Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary >> Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute >> wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted >> to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong >> than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a >> bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better >> choice than fir for the majority of the build. >> >> (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the >> phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately >> :o\) >> >> Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
>>> "Gary Boothe" 6/26/2009 12:34 PM >>> >>Curling..? >>As in curling hair? Curling weights? Gary: Don't you every watch the Olympics on TV? Curling is playing shuffleboard on ice with big rocks and a couple of brooms. (Usually at about 3:00 a.m. I think.) By the way, I just priced cabane material (1.685" x .714"x .049 wall 4130 steel) at Aircraft Spruce at $36.50 per foot. I about had a heart attack. Anyway, I found the same material online at A.E.D. Enterprises for $12.90 per foot which is what the ASS catalog showed about 3 years ago. Also they did not charge me to cut it into smaller pieces for shipping. (standard length is 17 feet) Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 26, 2009
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Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Go Mark, build man build John ------Original Message------ From: Mark Roberts Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford to get started :o) Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church wrote: > You're right, Clif. > You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! > (see attached sketch) > > I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" > board. > > Bill C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif > Dawson > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > --> > > Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". > And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than > working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left > to do on my fuselage. > > My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. > > Clif > > Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >> >> Ben Charvet > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Invitation to view Mark's Picasa Web Album - My visit
at The Groah's
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Invitation to view Mark's Picasa Web Album - My visit at The Groah's You are invited to view Mark's photo album: My visit at The Groah's <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=RobertsChristmas2007&targe t =ALBUM&id=5349598279130209457&authkey=Gv1sRgCIPixMiX0oXd-AE&invite= CLSir vAM&feat=email> <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=RobertsChristmas2007&targe t =ALBUM&id=5349598279130209457&authkey=Gv1sRgCIPixMiX0oXd-AE&invite= CLSir vAM&feat=email> My visit at The Groah's Jun 20, 2009 by Mark I had a chance to visit with Mike and Victor Groah and see their Pietenpol Air Camper at their shop. What a great couple of guys and what a great couple of craftsmen! View Album <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=RobertsChristmas2007&targe t =ALBUM&id=5349598279130209457&authkey=Gv1sRgCIPixMiX0oXd-AE&invite= CLSir vAM&feat=email> Play slideshow <http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=RobertsChristmas2007&targe t =ALBUM&id=5349598279130209457&authkey=Gv1sRgCIPixMiX0oXd-AE&invite= CLSir vAM&feat=email&mode=SLIDESHOW> Message from Mark: Hi Guys: I always find it interesting to see some of the people that we correspond with on the list. Put's a face with a name. I happen to live an hour away from one of the list members, and surprisingly have driven by their house on many occasions, not knowing there was a plane being built in the shop, or that there was such a nice guy living there. Well, so happens that by asking iof there was anyone building a Piet near Fresno CA that I met a couple of really nice guys yesterday. Have a look... If you are having problems viewing this email, copy and paste the following into your browser: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=RobertsChristmas2007&target ALBUM&id=5349598279130209457&authkey=Gv1sRgCIPixMiX0oXd-AE&invite=C LSirv AM&feat=email To share your photos or receive notification when your friends share photos, get your own free Picasa Web Albums account <http://picasaweb.google.com> . <http://picasaweb.google.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
:o) Well, I went to the lumber yard today (the REAL lumber yard where they stock un-faced wood...not the big box depots) and saw what I've been looking for. They had unfinished poplar in large stacks, banded with straps to keep it straight, and in more sizes than I could imagine. And, the guy told me that for the 5/4" (1.25") unfinished poplar, it is only $1.80 per boardfoot. I figured I didn't need anything thicker for the bulk of the fuse than 1" thick stuff, so that's what I am looking at getting. OK, so a 16 foot length if the stuff, 12" wide is only $36 and I get to plain it down and saw it up myself. I'm gonna figure out how many little sticks I need from it, but i am not sure I'll need over $100 bucks worth of the stuff for just the fuse. Now, I am off to determine the relative strength to weight of poplar vs Sitka... Where's my wood book.... Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, wrote: > > Go Mark, build man build > > John > ------Original Message------ > From: Mark Roberts > Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > To: Pietenpol builders Board > ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board > Sent: Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > > Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x > Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight > wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in > this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford > to get started :o) > > Mark > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church wrote: >> You're right, Clif. >> You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! >> (see attached sketch) >> >> I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" >> board. >> >> Bill C. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif >> Dawson >> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >> >> --> >> >> Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". >> And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than >> working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left >> to do on my fuselage. >> >> My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. >> >> Clif >> >> Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >>> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >>> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >>> >>> Ben Charvet >> >> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Now you're talkin'!! By the way...that was dried wood, wasn't it? Not stored outside? Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 3:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... :o) Well, I went to the lumber yard today (the REAL lumber yard where they stock un-faced wood...not the big box depots) and saw what I've been looking for. They had unfinished poplar in large stacks, banded with straps to keep it straight, and in more sizes than I could imagine. And, the guy told me that for the 5/4" (1.25") unfinished poplar, it is only $1.80 per boardfoot. I figured I didn't need anything thicker for the bulk of the fuse than 1" thick stuff, so that's what I am looking at getting. OK, so a 16 foot length if the stuff, 12" wide is only $36 and I get to plain it down and saw it up myself. I'm gonna figure out how many little sticks I need from it, but i am not sure I'll need over $100 bucks worth of the stuff for just the fuse. Now, I am off to determine the relative strength to weight of poplar vs Sitka... Where's my wood book.... Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, wrote: > > Go Mark, build man build > > John > ------Original Message------ > From: Mark Roberts > Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > To: Pietenpol builders Board > ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board > Sent: Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > > Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x > Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight > wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in > this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford > to get started :o) > > Mark > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church wrote: >> You're right, Clif. >> You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! >> (see attached sketch) >> >> I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" >> board. >> >> Bill C. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif >> Dawson >> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >> >> --> >> >> Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". >> And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than >> working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left >> to do on my fuselage. >> >> My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. >> >> Clif >> >> Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >>> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >>> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >>> >>> Ben Charvet >> >> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: <mikebell(at)sc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 06/25/09
Anybody out there interested in a full set of Pietenpol Newsletters. These are not original. They are the last of a lot of copies that I put together 8 or 9???? years ago. $65 plus shipping to first email to mikebell(at)sc.rr.com I also have a set of Corvair books: William Wynne's Converting Corvair Engines for use in Experimental Aircraft, How to Keep Your Corvair Alive and a 1965 Chassis Shop Manual. $30 plus shipping to first email I still have a crankshaft around for the small displacement engine. Someone sent it to me for the cost of shipping, so I'll pass the favor along if someone wants it. I have a set of plans but I'm not sure that I have everything so they'll have to wait. Just cleaning house and could use a few dollars. I still enjoy reading this digest even though I haven't worked on a plane in 6 or more years. Thanks to all Mike Bell Gaston, SC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair What Gary says is true Mark, the closer you get to having an airplane the more enthused you become. Not that I am obsessed at all; having just gotten my cabane struts all welded and shock struts all welded except for cutting to length and then welding on the final end. And getting all those blankety blank steel parts done is a great feeling. Jim On Jun 26, 2009, gboothe5(at)comcast.net wrote: Mark, I can make fun of your enthusiasm, because, after 15 months of building, I am more obsessed than ever. I go to sleep every night, and wake up every morning, thinking about my Piet! As far as I'm concerned, building a Pietenpol is "What I do." Work is something that occasionally interrupts (don't tell my boss!). If you decide to use poplar, you will have to purchase your longerons, uprights and diagonals from a lumber store. At Home Depot, you will find plenty of usable 1x2's or 1x4's to rib up into rib material. Building ribs alone will keep you busy for a couple months. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine Thanks guys. Regarding the motor, I think I will tell the guy that I will come and get it for free, and If I find use in it somewhere, I'll send him some bucks. If he wants to keep the engine, fine. I was just so excited when the numbers turned out to be a 110, and then it wouldn't turn. :o\ I just want to say thanks to all you guys for absorbing some of my initial enthusiasm. I think it must be like a guy that starts out to walk from LA to NYC, and he's only one day into the walk. Everything is exciting. After a year of this I bet I'll be just humming along, quietly making engine noises as I glue sticks together. And, as I work near a computer most of the time, and I am thinking about this project, uh, most of the time, I post messages, uh, most of the time. I am going to the wood store today to smell wood. I will be referring to the wood book and the info I've been reading about Poplar to see what they have and how much it's gonna cost to get started. I'll worry about an engine later, as I can keep looking until the right one comes along. I just thought I had found a good one right out of the shoot. Thanks again for all of the help! Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:03 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > Mark, > > Dittos to what Ryan said. Just finding a usable crank might be very > beneficial down the road. Some guys find a good engine, just to learn that > their crank is cracked or bent. There are other parts worth while, too. Such > as the head covers, baffles, etc. My core came without both of those items. > > Good luck to you...and try to put a little more enthusiasm into your > project! > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 4:37 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine > > > Mark, you didn't say anything about a car, so I'm assuming this motor/ > trans is just sitting out in the open. As you suspect, the fact that > the carbs are only plugged with rags and the motor will not turn would > suggest that water has run down through carbs, into the heads, and > through the open valves into the cylinders. In addition to having > pistons frozen in their bores it is highly likely that some (if not > all) of the combustion chambers on the heads will be pitted, rendering > them useless to you for an aircraft conversion. > > If the guy wants to just get it gone, it could be worth offering $25 > or $50. It's possible the case, cam, or crank could be usable cores, > and it can't hurt to have more of the misc small parts. You could also > use a junk case later on down the line as a mockup if need be. Having > said all that, I recall you saying earlier that you had not bought > William's manual yet; I would put the $50 towards his conversion > manual instead of this engine. I think the manual would be more useful > to you at this point than a questionable core. Have a good day, > > Ryan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 26, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > >> > >> >> I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at >> a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away >> from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the >> way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and >> he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers >> where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for >> about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head >> numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the >> dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! >> Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try >> that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close >> look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes >> were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons >> are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back >> and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely >> worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the >> guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth >> much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ >> >> Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary >> Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute >> wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted >> to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong >> than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a >> bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better >> choice than fir for the majority of the build. >> >> (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the >> phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately >> :o\) >> >> Mark > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Date: Jun 26, 2009
I got a corvair motor like this - it didn't turn over. I got it home for f ree=2C stating I'd pay if I could use anything. I started pulling parts an d when I pulled the distributor I found the problem. The distributor gear was chewed up. Once it was out=2C problem solved. I couldn't find the cau se of it - I tore down the rest of the engine and found no problems - of co urse the gear on the crank was equally chewed. Anyway=2C I call the guy ba ck to tell him about it and he says=2C just keep it=2C don't worry about an y money. Might be worth a shot. Tom B. > Date: Thu=2C 25 Jun 2009 23:15:45 -0700 > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine > From: mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > > I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at > a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away > from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the > way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and > he talked me through what to look for=2C and after I found the numbers > where he told me to look=2C I thought I might have found my engine for > about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard=2C looked up the head > numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the > dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! > Grab a wrench=2C put the transmission into neutral and turn=2C=2C=2C and try > that again=2C=2C=2C=2C no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little clos e > look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes > were stuffed with rags=2C and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons > are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back > and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely > worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the > guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth > much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ > > Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary > Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute > wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar=2C and just wanted > to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong > than Sitka=2C but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a > bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better > choice than fir for the majority of the build. > > (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the > phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately > :o\) > > Mark > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Proud of ya Mark, go thee forth and make saw dust John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:29:17 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... :o) Well, I went to the lumber yard today (the REAL lumber yard where they stock un-faced wood...not the big box depots) and saw what I've been looking for. They had unfinished poplar in large stacks, banded with straps to keep it straight, and in more sizes than I could imagine. And, the guy told me that for the 5/4" (1.25") unfinished poplar, it is only $1.80 per boardfoot. I figured I didn't need anything thicker for the bulk of the fuse than 1" thick stuff, so that's what I am looking at getting. OK, so a 16 foot length if the stuff, 12" wide is only $36 and I get to plain it down and saw it up myself. I'm gonna figure out how many little sticks I need from it, but i am not sure I'll need over $100 bucks worth of the stuff for just the fuse. Now, I am off to determine the relative strength to weight of poplar vs Sitka... Where's my wood book.... Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, wrote: > > Go Mark, build man build > > John > ------Original Message------ > From: Mark Roberts > Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > To: Pietenpol builders Board > ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board > Sent: Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > > Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x > Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight > wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in > this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford > to get started :o) > > Mark > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church wrote: >> You're right, Clif. >> You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! >> (see attached sketch) >> >> I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" >> board. >> >> Bill C. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif >> Dawson >> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >> >> --> >> >> Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". >> And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than >> working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left >> to do on my fuselage. >> >> My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. >> >> Clif >> >> Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >>> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >>> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >>> >>> Ben Charvet >> >> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
From: Grover Summers <oldaeroplaneworks(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: CAD drawings
Hi Bill, Sorry, I did reply to the group as opposed to the individual to whom they w ere intended. The value of the drawings is in that some of the components s hown could be used on a Piet drawing. Grover --- On Fri, 6/26/09, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CAD drawings Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:32 AM Grover, - Did you mistakenly send that message to the Piet List? I opened the CAD drawings you attached, and they do not appear to have any connection to the Piet. - - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen Walton" <stephenwalton(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: test
Date: Jun 26, 2009
test ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "GR Hewitt" <grhewitt(at)globaldial.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/09/09
Date: Jun 27, 2009
RE Carb heat muffs Any info please have been advised to keep the muff as close to the cylinder as possible, for an O200 all the pipes are outside the cowl how is enough heat avail due to air cooling Am using 1.5 inch stailess pipes Thanks Graham Hewitt ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Yep: Kiln dried and stored in a warehouse. Sweet! And, I went to a new computational websearch engine called Wolframalpha.com to look up the weight difference in Poplar and Sitka Spruce. It spits out the density of Sitka at .335g/cm3, and poplar at .38g/cm3 ... And the strength properties listed are extremely close. So I don't think I'll be adding a bunch of weight to the plane, and keeping the dimensions the same on all wood parts would yield about as much weight as if I was sloppy with glue or something. The difference (if I am looking at this properly) is .38 minus .335 or a difference of .045/cm3 or about 13 percent heavier...13 pounds per 100... for a dollar savings of a lot! On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > Now you're talkin'!! By the way...that was dried wood, wasn't it? Not stored > outside? > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 3:29 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > > :o) > > Well, I went to the lumber yard today (the REAL lumber yard where they > stock un-faced wood...not the big box depots) and saw what I've been > looking for. They had unfinished poplar in large stacks, banded with > straps to keep it straight, and in more sizes than I could imagine. > > And, the guy told me that for the 5/4" (1.25") unfinished poplar, it > is only $1.80 per boardfoot. I figured I didn't need anything thicker > for the bulk of the fuse than 1" thick stuff, so that's what I am > looking at getting. OK, so a 16 foot length if the stuff, 12" wide is > only $36 and I get to plain it down and saw it up myself. I'm gonna > figure out how many little sticks I need from it, but i am not sure > I'll need over $100 bucks worth of the stuff for just the fuse. > > Now, I am off to determine the relative strength to weight of poplar > vs Sitka... Where's my wood book.... > > Mark > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, wrote: >> >> Go Mark, build man build >> >> John >> ------Original Message------ >> From: Mark Roberts >> Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> To: Pietenpol builders Board >> ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board >> Sent: Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >> >> >> Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x >> Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight >> wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in >> this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford >> to get started :o) >> >> Mark >> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church > wrote: >>> You're right, Clif. >>> You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! >>> (see attached sketch) >>> >>> I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" >>> board. >>> >>> Bill C. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif >>> Dawson >>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM >>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". >>> And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than >>> working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left >>> to do on my fuselage. >>> >>> My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. >>> >>> Clif >>> >>> Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >>>> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >>>> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >>>> >>>> Ben Charvet >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Oh, now you have me thinking... maybe I'll be going back soon to pick up that engine! Thanks! Mark On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:55 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT wrote: > I got a corvair motor like this - it didn't turn over. I got it home for > free, stating I'd pay if I could use anything. I started pulling parts and > when I pulled the distributor I found the problem. The distributor gear was > chewed up. Once it was out, problem solved. I couldn't find the cause of > it - I tore down the rest of the engine and found no problems - of course > the gear on the crank was equally chewed. Anyway, I call the guy back to > tell him about it and he says, just keep it, don't worry about any money. > > Might be worth a shot. > > Tom B. > >> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:15:45 -0700 >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine >> From: mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> >> >> I'm reading the EAA wood book tonight after returning from looking at >> a Corvair Engine that was a heart breaker. Drove about 2 hours away >> from my home to look at this motor to see what I could see. Along the >> way I called Pat Panzera (a bona fide really nice guy by the way) and >> he talked me through what to look for, and after I found the numbers >> where he told me to look, I thought I might have found my engine for >> about 100 bucks. I got to the guys bone yard, looked up the head >> numbers and Eureka! The heads were 110 HP pure gold! Scraped off the >> dirt from the case block and whatdoyaknow! The case is 110 HP too! >> Grab a wrench, put the transmission into neutral and turn,,, and try >> that again,,,, no luck. The motor would not rotate. A little close >> look and the plug wires were not connected to plugs. The carb holes >> were stuffed with rags, and I have a sneaking suspicion the pistons >> are rusted to the cylinder walls. After the exam I called Pat back >> and found out it was probably a bust in that the motor was most likely >> worthless. Bummer. I may still try to get it and make a deal with the >> guy that I'll pay him if I can use any of it. He said it's not worth >> much to him sitting out in the rain :o\ >> >> Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 that Gary >> Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential substitute >> wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and just wanted >> to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly less strong >> than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the plane is a >> bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a better >> choice than fir for the majority of the build. >> >> (My apologies to John if you mentioned the difference today on the >> phone and I have just forgotten... It's happening too often lately > >-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
Date: Jun 26, 2009
Oh Crap! There goes my brain!!!! I do SO love the taste of socks. Clif... You're right, Clif. You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! (see attached sketch) I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" board. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Glass <redsglass(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Form a boatbuilders perspective poplar is not used that often because it te nds to absorb water and rot. If it is used I think diligence with varnishi ng and drainage is extra important. Steve in a very damp Maine. > Date: Fri=2C 26 Jun 2009 04:56:30 -0700 > From: ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > Mark=2C > > I can understand your excitement. I am also starting on my project but I am spending a lot less time and effort on it than you are (so envious!). I' ve been researching Poplar too and found that Sitka Spruce and Yellow Popla r at 12% moisture content are comparable in density. I believe it is near 2 8 lbs/cu ft=2C with the Poplar fractionally heavier. > > If you want to get an authoritative source on the subject there is none b etter than http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ You'll see why when you visit the link . They have amazing documentation on every aspect of building with wood. > > >From a numbers perspective the Poplar seems to be a almost direct replac ement for Spruce=2C yet many designers stick with Spruce. I wonder why it i s not as popular=2C especially given the cost. > > Regards=2C > Ameet > Omaha=2C NE > > --- On Fri=2C 6/26/09=2C Mark Roberts wrote: > > > Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 > > that Gary > > Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential > > substitute > > wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar=2C and > > just wanted > > to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly > > less strong > > than Sitka=2C but how much heavier is it over all? Since the > > plane is a > > bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a > > better > > choice than fir for the majority of the build. > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Speaking of Poplar
Date: Jun 27, 2009
From: tbyh(at)aol.com
Some years ago a fellow cut down a big poplar tree that he grew in his yard, had it dried and milled and built his entire Pietenpol out of that tree. I forget what happened to the plane -- I think it was lost in a fire. There was an article about it in one of the old newsletters. Poplar, Wis., is also home to Major Richard Bong, America's ace of aces. They have a great museum with a P-38 at nearby Superior and tells Dick Bong's story. So if you're ever in the Duluth-Superior area, stop in there. Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Insects don't like poplar so it has a natural resistance to infestation. From what I have read. I like that part too. It keeps one from building an inferior model John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:23:48 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... Yep: Kiln dried and stored in a warehouse. Sweet! And, I went to a new computational websearch engine called Wolframalpha.com to look up the weight difference in Poplar and Sitka Spruce. It spits out the density of Sitka at .335g/cm3, and poplar at .38g/cm3 ... And the strength properties listed are extremely close. So I don't think I'll be adding a bunch of weight to the plane, and keeping the dimensions the same on all wood parts would yield about as much weight as if I was sloppy with glue or something. The difference (if I am looking at this properly) is .38 minus .335 or a difference of .045/cm3 or about 13 percent heavier...13 pounds per 100... for a dollar savings of a lot! On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > Now you're talkin'!! By the way...that was dried wood, wasn't it? Not stored > outside? > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > (13 ribs down) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 3:29 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... > > > :o) > > Well, I went to the lumber yard today (the REAL lumber yard where they > stock un-faced wood...not the big box depots) and saw what I've been > looking for. They had unfinished poplar in large stacks, banded with > straps to keep it straight, and in more sizes than I could imagine. > > And, the guy told me that for the 5/4" (1.25") unfinished poplar, it > is only $1.80 per boardfoot. I figured I didn't need anything thicker > for the bulk of the fuse than 1" thick stuff, so that's what I am > looking at getting. OK, so a 16 foot length if the stuff, 12" wide is > only $36 and I get to plain it down and saw it up myself. I'm gonna > figure out how many little sticks I need from it, but i am not sure > I'll need over $100 bucks worth of the stuff for just the fuse. > > Now, I am off to determine the relative strength to weight of poplar > vs Sitka... Where's my wood book.... > > Mark > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, wrote: >> >> Go Mark, build man build >> >> John >> ------Original Message------ >> From: Mark Roberts >> Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> To: Pietenpol builders Board >> ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board >> Sent: Jun 26, 2009 12:25 PM >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >> >> >> Thanks for the drawing Bill. I will most likely be looking for 2x >> Poplar, as I think it will work best for what I want to do. Weight >> wise, it should be close, and as BHP over designed the strength in >> this plane, I think should be plenty strong enough. And, I can afford >> to get started :o) >> >> Mark >> >> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Bill Church > wrote: >>> You're right, Clif. >>> You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! >>> (see attached sketch) >>> >>> I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" >>> board. >>> >>> Bill C. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif >>> Dawson >>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:05 PM >>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of Wood Selection... >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Sorry, but you can't get four 1X1's out of 3 1/2" X 3 1/2". >>> And you're right, ripping a square like that is definitely harder than >>> working with 2X. It's moot for me anyway, as there isn't that much left >>> to do on my fuselage. >>> >>> My next big project in that regard is the fiberglass fuel tank. >>> >>> Clif >>> >>> Cliff.. It wouldnt be too hard to get 4 longerons >>>> out of a 4X4 provided your saw will cut through it. If you use 2x >>>> lumber it would be a little easier to work with, >>>> >>>> Ben Charvet >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Subject: Re: Speaking of Wood Selection...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
I've had my share of Athlete's tongue too :o) On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Clif Dawson wrote: > > Oh Crap! There goes my brain!!!! > > I do SO love the taste of socks. > > Clif... > > > You're right, Clif. > You can't get four 1x1's out of 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" ... You can get NINE! > (see attached sketch) > > I assume you meant that you can't get four 1" pieces from a 3 1/2" > board. > Bill C. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Stephen Walton" <stephenwalton(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Axels
Date: Jun 27, 2009
I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Subject: Re: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Steve, there's a perspective I hadn't considered. We live in Central California, and it's a dry (too dry) place. However, I also plan to hanger it, and varnish all the parts first. We grow approx. 25% of the nations food right here in Fresno county. Can you believe that? One county, 25% of the food. I thought it was a joke or an exaggeration, but it is true (unless the farm bureau is lying... It still sounds high to me). It is possible because of the growing conditions, and the fact that in the 50's/60's they built an aqua-canal system to send water here, because we are an old dried up lake bed with no real water of our own. Big news here is that the government has diverted the water this year (a drought year for the 4th or 5th year in a row) due to an environmental law protecting a bait fish that is common in many parts of the US, but would be somehow endangered in the delta where it lives now. Now they are plowing the crops under for lack of water, and food prices nation wide are about to go up quite a bit as a result. So, I am wishing we had some rain here to rot my wood :o) All that because I saw your tag line "Steve in a very damp Maine." Mark On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 3:35 AM, Steve Glass wrote: > Form a boatbuilders perspective poplar is not used that often because it > tends to absorb water and rot. If it is used I think diligence with > varnishing and drainage is extra important. > > Steve in a very damp Maine. > > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:56:30 -0700 > > From: ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Poplar (Yellow) and a corvair engine > > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com> > > > > > > Mark, > > > > I can understand your excitement. I am also starting on my project but I > am spending a lot less time and effort on it than you are (so envious!). > I've been researching Poplar too and found that Sitka Spruce and Yellow > Poplar at 12% moisture content are comparable in density. I believe it is > near 28 lbs/cu ft, with the Poplar fractionally heavier. > > > > If you want to get an authoritative source on the subject there is none > better than http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ You'll see why when you visit the > link. They have amazing documentation on every aspect of building with wood. > > > > >From a numbers perspective the Poplar seems to be a almost direct > replacement for Spruce, yet many designers stick with Spruce. I wonder why > it is not as popular, especially given the cost. > > > > Regards, > > Ameet > > Omaha, NE > > > > --- On Fri, 6/26/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > > > > > Now a poplar question: I looked at the page from AC43.13 > > > that Gary > > > Boothe sent me that lists Poplar (Yellow) as a potential > > > substitute > > > wood. I see a number of you are building with Poplar, and > > > just wanted > > > to check on the weight difference. I see it is slightly > > > less strong > > > than Sitka, but how much heavier is it over all? Since the > > > plane is a > > > bit over built (design wise) I think poplar sounds like a > > > better > > > choice than fir for the majority of the build. > > > > > > > >===================== > >================ > > > > > > > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Axels
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Steve, My axle is 1-1/2" diameter, .188" wall 4130, heat treated to 160,000 psi tensile strength. The loading of the axle is a bit unusual - if you look at a shear and moment diagram for such a structure, the axle is under a constant bending moment from bungee to bungee, which means the stress is constant all along the axle. Landing loads can put some pretty high stresses on it (I broke my first axle during a forced landing, hence the heat treating of the new axle). As for windshield design, the curved design is considerably lighter and infinitely easier to make than the framed type. It all depends on what you want. If you want good performance, build a Piet with standard "Cub-type" gear, curved windshields, etc. If you want the "classic" look, go with the sraight axle, wire wheels (with or without covers) and framed windshields, but understand that all those things add weight and hamper performance, particularly on hot days. Good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Walton Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:42 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Axels I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List cub gear with die press springs
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair What are those of you with the cub gear and die press springs in the shock struts using to lube the inner tube that slides up and down as the spring compresses back and forth? Just few drops of oil, light grease, nothing, what? thanks, Jim On Jun 27, 2009, pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net wrote: Steve, My axle is 1-1/2 diameter, .188 wall 4130, heat treated to 160,000 psi tensile strength. The loading of the axle is a bit unusual if you look at a shear and moment diagram for such a structure, the axle is under a constant bending moment from bungee to bungee, which means the stress is constant all along the axle. Landing loads can put some pretty high stresses on it (I broke my first axle during a forced landing, hence the heat treating of the new axle). As for windshield design, the curved design is considerably lighter and infinitely easier to make than the framed type. It all depends on what you want. If you want good performance, build a Piet with standard Cub-type gear, curved windshields, etc. If you want the classic look, go with the sraight axle, wire wheels (with or without covers) and framed windshields, but understand that all those things add weight and hamper performance, particularly on hot days. Good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Walton Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:42 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Axels I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List cub gear with die press springs
I try to use light oil, but the truth of the matter is that enough "stuff" flies, drools, and drips back from the engine that things stay fairly well lubed regardless. >- >What are those of you with the cub gear and die press springs in the >shock struts using to lube the inner tube that slides up and down as >the spring compresses back and forth? Just few drops of oil, light >grease, nothing, what? > >thanks, >Jim > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Subject: (no subject)
Pieters, Looking for pics of a Piet with regular gear, coil spring shocks and motorcycle wheels. Any info on such an animal will sure be appreciated. don't remember any but it's been a long time since I Pietered. Using 1/2 gallon milk jugs is THE answer for wing flotation. You can fill those spaces entirely. That thing would float forever Corky, an old Pieter **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! eExcfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Corky, Sounds like the setup Walt Evans has on his Pietenpol, except I believe he has bungees instead of Die springs Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: (no subject) Pieters, Looking for pics of a Piet with regular gear, coil spring shocks and motorcycle wheels. Any info on such an animal will sure be appreciated. don't remember any but it's been a long time since I Pietered. Using 1/2 gallon milk jugs is THE answer for wing flotation. You can fill those spaces entirely. That thing would float forever Corky, an old Pieter _____ An Excellent22585065x1201462786/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/de fault.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JuneExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Axels, ahem, axles!!
Date: Jun 27, 2009
hmmmm, .188 wall thickness? I'm not looking at them right now, but what do the plans call for?? I don't know, but I think I screwed up and used thinner wall tubing. Already painted and installed, but if I need to replace or put a doubler tube inside at least past the bungees . . . Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips<mailto:pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Axels Steve, My axle is 1-1/2" diameter, .188" wall 4130, heat treated to 160,000 psi tensile strength. The loading of the axle is a bit unusual - if you look at a shear and moment diagram for such a structure, the axle is under a constant bending moment from bungee to bungee, which means the stress is constant all along the axle. Landing loads can put some pretty high stresses on it (I broke my first axle during a forced landing, hence the heat treating of the new axle). As for windshield design, the curved design is considerably lighter and infinitely easier to make than the framed type. It all depends on what you want. If you want good performance, build a Piet with standard "Cub-type" gear, curved windshields, etc. If you want the "classic" look, go with the sraight axle, wire wheels (with or without covers) and framed windshields, but understand that all those things add weight and hamper performance, particularly on hot days. Good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Walton Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:42 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Axels I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
From: John Egan <johnegan99(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Magazine Cover - Bill Rewey
For interest, I've attached a photo of Bill Rewey providing a ride in his P ietenpol as recently appeared on the cover of "Midwest Flyer" magazine. The re was no article in the magazine-related to the photo, but it's nice to see a Piet on the cover.=0A=0ASee Bill at EAA Airventure speaking on behalf of Pietenpol building.=0A=0A7/28/2009 10:00 AM - 11:15 AM Pietenpol Buildi ng 009 Honda Generator Pavilion Bill Rewey =0A-=0Ajohn egan=0Ain wisconsi n=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Hi Corky Several of the Pietenpols built in the UK have the coil spring and motorcycle wheels. See http://westcoastpiet.com/new_page_27.htm http://westcoastpiet.com/g-buco_(Alan%20James).htm http://westcoastpiet.com/g-ecvb.htm Some U.S. based Pietenpols that I can think of http://westcoastpiet.com/new_page_5.htm http://westcoastpiet.com/nx899ac.htm http://westcoastpiet.com/hank.htm http://westcoastpiet.com/new_page_50.htm http://westcoastpiet.com/wayne,_bob_anf_jeff.htm http://westcoastpiet.com/new_page_58.htm Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: (no subject) Pieters, Looking for pics of a Piet with regular gear, coil spring shocks and motorcycle wheels. Any info on such an animal will sure be appreciated. don't remember any but it's been a long time since I Pietered. Using 1/2 gallon milk jugs is THE answer for wing flotation. You can fill those spaces entirely. That thing would float forever Corky, an old Pieter ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- An Excellent22585065x1201462786/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/ pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JuneExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List cub gear with die press
springs Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Thanks Jeff, I hadn't really thought of engine drips, etc. from oil changes and all lubing the sliders. Probably only need to lube them for the initial setup and check after. Jim On Jun 27, 2009, jboatri(at)emory.edu wrote: I try to use light oil, but the truth of the matter is that enough "stuff" flies, drools, and drips back from the engine that things stay fairly well lubed regardless. >- >What are those of you with the cub gear and die press springs in the >shock struts using to lube the inner tube that slides up and down as >the spring compresses back and forth? Just few drops of oil, light >grease, nothing, what? > >thanks, >Jim > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Thanks, that will help me get started. Now the big question. When I approach the motorcycle boneyard. What make bike and wheel size would be considered the strongest for gearing a Piet Corky **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! eExcfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Jun 27, 2009
I'm not airborne, yet, but I have 21" Sportster wheels. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 6:16 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (no subject) Thanks, that will help me get started. Now the big question. When I approach the motorcycle boneyard. What make bike and wheel size would be considered the strongest for gearing a Piet Corky _____ An Excellent Credit Score is786/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26 hmpgID=62%26bcd=JuneExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Subject: wheels-- Corky
Corky-- if you can, ask for ANYTHING that rides on aluminum alloy rims---they'll be lighter and they can be polished to appear like they are chromed. I have 19" aluminum alloy rims on mine. 40 spokes per wheel are BEST but most bikes don't come in those anymore....32 is the standard I believe anymore. I happened upon a set of 40 spoke aluminum alloy rims after searching 3 motorcycle boneyards and many stores. Sun (you'd have to Google them) sells alum. rims off the shelf--any size---perfect if you're willing to spend the money. You can always just go to the guy who made the wheels (and airplanes) for the movie Flyboys....he sells wire wheel kits with all you need including a video on how to lace and true them. http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/HeavyDutyWheels.html Wheel kits ready to be laced with 2 tires, 2 tubes and 2 bearing sets sell for $495. This also includes a step-by-step detailed video. The weight of 2 hubs is "about" 2 lbs. (We couldn't get them to register on a digital scale.) The weight of ONE wheel complete with tire and tube is 18 lbs. So, two COMPLETE wheels will weigh 36 lbs. NOW, TO SEE THE FINISHED, READY-TO-GO PRODUCT CLICK HERE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 27, 2009
Subject: Re: wheels-- Corky
Thanks Mikee Good to hear that Yankee twang again after so long The ole rebel **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! eExcfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Axels, ahem, axles!!
Date: Jun 27, 2009
The axle on NX18235 is 1 1/2" X .120 wall thickness and is not heat treated. No brakes are installed so the length of axle extending beyond the bungee's is shorter than a brake equipped Pietenpol. This helps to limit the bending stress on the axle. The axle has withstood some teeth jarring landings just fine. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:18 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Axels, ahem, axles!! hmmmm, .188 wall thickness? I'm not looking at them right now, but what do the plans call for?? I don't know, but I think I screwed up and used thinner wall tubing. Already painted and installed, but if I need to replace or put a doubler tube inside at least past the bungees . . . Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Axels Steve, My axle is 1-1/2" diameter, .188" wall 4130, heat treated to 160,000 psi tensile strength. The loading of the axle is a bit unusual - if you look at a shear and moment diagram for such a structure, the axle is under a constant bending moment from bungee to bungee, which means the stress is constant all along the axle. Landing loads can put some pretty high stresses on it (I broke my first axle during a forced landing, hence the heat treating of the new axle). As for windshield design, the curved design is considerably lighter and infinitely easier to make than the framed type. It all depends on what you want. If you want good performance, build a Piet with standard "Cub-type" gear, curved windshields, etc. If you want the "classic" look, go with the sraight axle, wire wheels (with or without covers) and framed windshields, but understand that all those things add weight and hamper performance, particularly on hot days. Good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Walton Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:42 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Axels I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Axels, ahem, axles!!
Date: Jun 27, 2009
I should add that the 1 1/2 X .120 (11 ga.) is one gauge thicker than the plans call for. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: gcardinal To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Axels, ahem, axles!! The axle on NX18235 is 1 1/2" X .120 wall thickness and is not heat treated. No brakes are installed so the length of axle extending beyond the bungee's is shorter than a brake equipped Pietenpol. This helps to limit the bending stress on the axle. The axle has withstood some teeth jarring landings just fine. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:18 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Axels, ahem, axles!! hmmmm, .188 wall thickness? I'm not looking at them right now, but what do the plans call for?? I don't know, but I think I screwed up and used thinner wall tubing. Already painted and installed, but if I need to replace or put a doubler tube inside at least past the bungees . . . Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:58 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Axels Steve, My axle is 1-1/2" diameter, .188" wall 4130, heat treated to 160,000 psi tensile strength. The loading of the axle is a bit unusual - if you look at a shear and moment diagram for such a structure, the axle is under a constant bending moment from bungee to bungee, which means the stress is constant all along the axle. Landing loads can put some pretty high stresses on it (I broke my first axle during a forced landing, hence the heat treating of the new axle). As for windshield design, the curved design is considerably lighter and infinitely easier to make than the framed type. It all depends on what you want. If you want good performance, build a Piet with standard "Cub-type" gear, curved windshields, etc. If you want the "classic" look, go with the sraight axle, wire wheels (with or without covers) and framed windshields, but understand that all those things add weight and hamper performance, particularly on hot days. Good luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Walton Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:42 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Axels I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Brodhead Folks in Ohio
Guys, The WACO fly-in was FUUUUUNNN today.- Dad drove the 1932 model A 1 1/2 ton truck up today, and parked inside the- aircraft parking.- A fel low walked up after a while and asked Dad if he could pull up tight to a mi nt looking Waco (UPF-7 i believe) so they could take some time period photo s of the 2 togeather.- Well it turns out that it was Bill Knight's WACO, who also owns the "Last Original" Pietenpol up at Brodhead.- After talkin g about Piets, airplanes etc, he made the comment "What a nice day, wish I could find someone who wants to go flying" (wink wink), he offered me, Dad, and my wife a ride in his WACO.- It was a blast!- And how in the heck someone ever flew, (landed rather-)one of those from the front cockpit is amazing, the top of the pannel is about the top of my forehead, and the fr ont pit is about 3 feet wide.- He let me fly a little after we got to alt , and it flys nice, light ailerons, and heavy rudder.- It is nice to see the commrodery (sp?) of the airplane brotherhood, especcialy Pietenpol guys. - I can't think of a nicer group of folks anywhere.- It goes to show, n ot all those with money are buttheads, some don't forget where they came fr om, and where we are all headed.- I will gladdly develop the black and wh ite digital photos I took of dad's model A with Bill's Waco and give them t o him at brodhead next month.- And I don't want to forget to mention, it was great to see Tom Brown of Colby Wisconsin (Corvair Piet "Brown Aero"), and Skipp Gadd (GN1) from Hales Landing WV.- - Looking forward to seeing Y'all next month for the 80th - Shad - PS: don't let your wife fly in a waco, the ass comfort is hard to compete w ith in a pietenpol!=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Axels
Date: Jun 27, 2009
If "ramp appeal" is important to you then the Jenny style landing gear and 3-piece framed windscreen are good choices. At the Father's Day fly-in at our home field of Stanton (SYN) the Pietenpol was parked with a bunch of shiny fiberglass light-sport aircraft and a bunch of Cubs. Which airplane do you think had the crowd around it? The Pietenpol....... Replace the solid axle with tubing. It is still heavy but better than a solid axle. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Walton To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Axels I bought a wonderful 70% project which includes the original "Jenny" type landing gear. Rather than rip out the work in place I'm going to go ahead and stick with that gear. Question. The solid steel axel appears to weigh about a ton and a half. My thought is to substitute a steel tube or failing that, replace the center half of the solid steel axel with an aluminum tube, sleeved over the axel end pieces. What say the assembled, and far more experienced, masses? Also, beyond asthetics, what are the considerations on windshield design? I'm leaning towards the simpler single piece, bent plastice motorcycle type althoough the classic framed type has more "Classic" appeal. Is the simpler lighter? What say you? Thanks in advance Steve Walton Classic wood, short fuselage basic stucture complete, just need to cover 80% to go : ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Continental Motor mount plans-- downthrust specifically
Date: Jun 27, 2009
The downthrust on NX18235 is per the plans. It displays a slight tendency to go "nose down" when I let go of the stick. It is the same at all throttle settings so that indicates it is an aerodynamic issue and not related to motor mount downthrust. Any builder weighing more than 180# might want to consider extending the motor mount 1 or 2 inches. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental Motor mount plans-- downthrust specifically For any of you (like Greg Cardinal) FLYING behind Continental motor mounts that you built from Pietenpol plans, did you build in the downthrust as per plans---if so, any comments ? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: corvair mounts
From: "skellytown flyer" <rhano(at)att.net>
Date: Jun 28, 2009
Well I was at the hardware store and found some 1/2" O.D. Polyethylene tubing that seems tough. I think I may try that on my bolts where they pass through the case holes.I will make a mental note to keep watch on them and see if I can see any wear.for sure it would be a good item to inspect at annuals.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250480#250480 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb(at)charter.net>
Subject: Rib Spruce strips
Date: Jun 28, 2009
I have ~143ft. of 1/4" by 3/8' spruce strips I'll donate to someone's cause for making Piet. ribs. Ten of the pieces are 12 ft long and the balance 6 to 8 ft. or so. I'll package in a thin PVC tube for UPS shipping, in the longest tube UPS will accept. I think that is 10ft. The deal is the first person to respond who will pay for shipping gets the batch. Jim Lagowski, jimdeb(at)charter.net or 231-264-6489 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: A75 progress
Date: Jun 28, 2009
Howdy, Pieters- Not too much progress made on the engine swap. Too many other fish frying in the pan right now and I've hit a few snags along the way too. Nothing serious though. I've updated the engine swap webpage with a picture of latest progress as well as some notes on what I've gotten done. They are at the bottom of the page at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/engine/A75.html Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wood shop tools
From: "Will42" <will(at)cctc.net>
Date: Jun 28, 2009
The table saw is the heart and soul of any descent wood shop. An older high quality saw can be bought for a fraction of the cost of a not-so-good-quality new saw. Most of the older saws are belt drive and have an easily replaceable motor where many of the new saws are direct drive and cost a small fortune to have repaired. Look for the heavy cast iron base and table; don't be too concerned with the fence; it may be missing or in abused condition. I usually replace it with a plank clamped to the table; sure it's slower to move, but it's also very accurate and not so much in the way when ripping thin stock. Also, when working with thin stock, I replace the blade cut-out with a piece of plywood cut and shaped to fit the cut-out hole; after fitting the plywood to the hole, turn the saw on and raise the blade and saw right through the ply to the depth needed for you wood stock; much less chance of the thin stuff catching or falling through the hole. Ripping long stock needs a steady hand and feather boards, in-run and out-run tables are a great help. Get the highest quality smooth cut blade you can find and if you are careful, you won't need to plane the cuts. It's true that you can buy all your wood sawed and milled to dimension but you'll likely spend more on the shipping alone than the wood planks purchased locally will cost. And buying your wood already milled to specs is not as simple (sometimes) as you might think; I am seeing quiet a few posts where the quality is not what is required; then you have to dicker with the supplier to get it replaced (and likely get stuck with the additional shipping) and lost time and frustration. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250501#250501 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rib Spruce strips
From: "bill.kipp" <bill.kipp(at)comcast.net>
Date: Jun 28, 2009
Jim I'm just starting a piet project and could make good use of the material. i sent an email also. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250502#250502 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 2009
Subject: Re: corvair mounts
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
I hadn't noticed the question before, so I may be a bit late with this. From the Corvaircraft archives, here is Mark Langford describing what he used to mount his engine: ----------------- I'm using "Energy Suspension" 9.810R 3/8" I.D. Shock Tower Grommets, straight from the local speed shop. I think WW may use some that are a little larger in diameter, but these work too. I used AN6 bolts with MS21042 steel lock nuts from Wicks. Also, I used 3/8" ID polyurethane tubing from Home Depot between the engine case and bolt to take up the slack in that .56 diameter hole in the case. Washers are large diameter AN970-6 from Wicks. Mark flies the pants off his KR, so you can't go wrong following his lead. Ryan On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 1:45 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > > Well I was at the hardware store and found some 1/2" O.D. Polyethylene > tubing that seems tough. I think I may try that on my bolts where they pass > through the case holes.I will make a mental note to keep watch on them and > see if I can see any wear.for sure it would be a good item to inspect at > annuals.Raymond > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Continental Motor mount plans-- downthrust specifically
Date: Jun 28, 2009
Mikee asked: >For any of you (like Greg Cardinal) FLYING behind Continental motor >mounts that you built from Pietenpol plans, did you build in the >downthrust as per plans---if so, any comments ? Greg replied: >The downthrust on NX18235 is per the plans. It displays a slight >tendency to go "nose down" when I let go of the stick. It is the same >at all throttle settings so that indicates it is an aerodynamic issue >and not related to motor mount downthrust. Any builder weighing more >than 180# might want to consider extending the motor mount 1 or 2 inches. So, I took my Pietenpol plan sheet showing the Cont. engine mount out to the hangar and started checking dimensions of the mount on 41CC to see what I have. Turns out that my mount has about 1/8" of downthrust built into the mount and that may not have even been intentional. The plans call for 9/16" differential between top and bottom mounts and 41CC has a couple of washers amounting to maybe half that differential and the washers are only on one side to compensate for P-factor. My airplane handles a lot like Greg's sounds like his does. I also found that my mount places the engine 2-3/4" farther forward than the plans call for. I didn't know that! Every time I study something on this airplane, I grow to admire Joe Czaplicki and Corky Corbett more and more because everything they did on it made for a very nice flying airplane. I guess I should try flying other Piets to see how they handle compared to this one, but 41CC is light, comfortable, stable, and it never fails to please. All this talk about slow in roll, heavy in turns, and sinks like a brick with power off don't mean a thing to me because this airplane is a real pleasure to fly. It's no Pitts but when I leave the pattern to go on patrol, me and the airplane are on the same wavelength and I don't have to watch it every minute. And in the pattern- the airplane is still my instructor but it always rewards me when I handle the controls like a pilot and not like a kit builder. Oops... did I just say that? ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: tail weight
Pieters, Can anyone that is flying tell me how much wt they have on the tail when in three point and when horizontal? Also can they lift the tail when making a take off run and do they have any incidence in the horizontal. Thanks Ken Conrad in hot corn country **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: tail weight
Date: Jun 29, 2009
On NX18235 the weight on the tailskid in the three point attitude is about approx. 26 pounds. When level the weight on the skid is 6 pounds. The tail can be lifted quite easily as soon as power is advanced. Horizontal stabilizer incidence is level. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight Pieters, Can anyone that is flying tell me how much wt they have on the tail when in three point and when horizontal? Also can they lift the tail when making a take off run and do they have any incidence in the horizontal. Thanks Ken Conrad in hot corn country ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- A Good Credit Score is 700 or98699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc= 668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: tail weight
Date: Jun 29, 2009
On "Icarus Plummet" the weight on the tailwheel (empty) is about 30 lbs. At the level flight position, the weight is probably about 8 lbs (haven't weighed it in that position, but it is easy to pick up with one hand). I have two AN960 washers under the forward attach bolts, providing a couple degrees of "up" incidence. I found it difficult to get the tail up on takeoff until I got up to 40 mph, so I added a strip of duct tape to seal the gap between the stabilizer and elevators. Now I can raise the tail after I've travelled about 100 feet. The gap seal also affected trim in level flight, requiring more nose up trim than it used to. I could probably remove those washers and take the incidence out and it would be just about right. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gcardinal Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight On NX18235 the weight on the tailskid in the three point attitude is about approx. 26 pounds. When level the weight on the skid is 6 pounds. The tail can be lifted quite easily as soon as power is advanced. Horizontal stabilizer incidence is level. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Wizzard187(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tail weight Pieters, Can anyone that is flying tell me how much wt they have on the tail when in three point and when horizontal? Also can they lift the tail when making a take off run and do they have any incidence in the horizontal. Thanks Ken Conrad in hot corn country _____ A Good Credit Score is 700 or98699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072% 26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward
than plans Oscar-- I find it really interesting that you discovered your 41CC engine mount is 2 3/4" longer than plans. My guess is that your wing is positioned maybe 1-2" "slant-back" from your cabanes being vertical no ? With my motor mount I intentionally made it 1" longer than plans because I'm 200lbs and didn't want to have to slant the wing way, way back to get the CG numbers to work out. As it turned out my wing is 4" aft of the cabane struts in the perfect vertical orientation. Steve E. from Utah (best I can recall) had his wing back SIX inches to make his CG turn out right. Nothing wrong with that but longer motor mounts do for the Cont. 65 does keep builders from having to position the wing back very far. (that's why GN-1's noses look so long--because they are. The reason they are so long is that the wing on a GN-1 is NOT repositionable fore and aft with the way they designed the GN-1 cabane fittings. If your CG comes out wrong on a GN-1 you just can't move the wing fore or aft to fix it-- you have to build a new motor mount or add lead somewhere !!!! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward... It would be nice to see some type of relationship of motor mount or engine relationship to the firewall based upon engine weight and pilot weight as in a table such that the guessing and experimentation could be minimized based upon the table of relationship dimensions. Then all that would be left would be a series of small adjustments of the wing to achieve the best combination. Just a thought. John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Electtric plane
Perhaps this is an alternative to the model A engine? http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html Steve D 35 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Woodflier(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Piet windshield
Steve, I considered making the framed windshields, like Jack Phillips did, but figured it was beyond my abilities as a metal worker to make the frames. They look terrific, though. I took some 1/4" plexiglas bought at Lowes, cut the blank out with a Dreml tool, made a simple single curve aluminum form with sheet aluminum and some wire to hold it in a curve, and put the form with a plexiglas blank in the oven in the kitchen at 250 degrees for 10 minutes. The plexiglas formed over the curve and it worked out just great. I left the plastic covering on the plexiglas which was tough to get off but protected it from scratching. I just used simple aluminum brackets to attach the windshields to the turtle decks. Here's a few pics. Matt Paxton NX629ML **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward...
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
You're right, John, it would be nice. But I don't think it's practical, for two reasons: 1. The number of combinations of different engine weights and configurations and pilot weights is almost limitless. And, 2. The actual weight distribution of the aircraft itself is far too variable (due to most builders "personalizing" their project and other unknown variables like tailwheel assembly weight, paint finish, etc.) I think the only method that will work is to do a proper weight and balance calculation based on each individual aircraft. Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? thus helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit for pax. There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask him what he thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) Blue skies, Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> Date: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:49 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > > All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very > light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely > necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it > would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently > only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of > fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric > motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's > another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the > front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would > a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? > -- > --- > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > Emory University School of Medicine > Editor-in-Chief > Molecular Vision > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Piet windshield
Date: Jun 29, 2009
So Matt, are you about ready to fly that thing? Any chance you'll have it at Brodhead? Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodflier(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield Steve, I considered making the framed windshields, like Jack Phillips did, but figured it was beyond my abilities as a metal worker to make the frames. They look terrific, though. I took some 1/4" plexiglas bought at Lowes, cut the blank out with a Dreml tool, made a simple single curve aluminum form with sheet aluminum and some wire to hold it in a curve, and put the form with a plexiglas blank in the oven in the kitchen at 250 degrees for 10 minutes. The plexiglas formed over the curve and it worked out just great. I left the plastic covering on the plexiglas which was tough to get off but protected it from scratching. I just used simple aluminum brackets to attach the windshields to the turtle decks. Here's a few pics. Matt Paxton NX629ML _____ A Good126575x1221823281x1201398699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/p m/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Steve Eldredge <steve(at)byu.edu>
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Piet windshield
Looks great! Best wishes on your project. I did the same kind of windshie ld on my piet, with three anchor points using Lexan. No oven bending, just muscled it into place. It would eventually crack, but by then it had enou gh scratches it was time to replace it anyway. Steve E. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodflier(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet windshield Steve, I considered making the framed windshields, like Jack Phillips did, but figured it was beyond my abilities as a metal worker to make the frames . They look terrific, though. I took some 1/4" plexiglas bought at Lowes, c ut the blank out with a Dreml tool, made a simple single curve aluminum for m with sheet aluminum and some wire to hold it in a curve, and put the form with a plexiglas blank in the oven in the kitchen at 250 degrees for 10 mi nutes. The plexiglas formed over the curve and it worked out just great. I left the plastic covering on the plexiglas which was tough to get off but p rotected it from scratching. I just used simple aluminum brackets to attach the windshields to the turtle decks. Here's a few pics. Matt Paxton NX629ML ________________________________ A Good126575x1221823281x1201398699/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport. com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>S ee yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward...
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I think the only method that will work is to do a proper weight and balance > calculation based on each individual aircraft. > > Agreed, I did an "engineless" W&B on my uncovered assembled airframe with scrap metal added where the fuel tank goes to simulate full fuel, vertical cabanes (why have to move the wing back if you can put the engine forward enough to not require it). I then back calculated where the engine (ready to run with oil, prop, etc) needed to go and built my mount accordingly (240 lbs for a Corvair in my case). Also, since this W&B did not include cover and paint, according to Jack Phillips that will move your CG back something under an inch also. Rick > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
Date: Jun 29, 2009
amazing what you can do with a couple of aluminum ladders and mother's washing machine motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-tx6rPz3HY Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> > Perhaps this is an alternative to the model A engine? > > http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_YuneecE430_ElectricAirplane_FirstFlight_200617-1.html > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
I agree about pushing the weight forward - the 100 lb guess at the engine vs motor weight difference would put that 100 lbs ahead of the firewall, but obviously more battery weight can be put there for W&B purposes. Another thing I wonder about is why these motors are being run at rpms so high that a reduction drive is needed. I always thought that electric motor develop maximal torque as rpm goes to zero. >NGB" > >Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? >thus helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit >for pax. There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask >him what he thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? > >WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) > >Blue skies, >Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
We need to have Piet builders toss in a couple bucks each at Broadhead to come up with a "Orteig *Prize" (like Lindbergh won) for the first electric Piet flown into Broadhead (from some required minimum distance). May be able to get EAA to toss in some dough too, they would love to showcase something like that at Oshkosh. Rick * On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB < steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> wrote: > steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> > > Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? thus > helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit for pax. > There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask him what he > thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? > > WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) > > Blue skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:49 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > > > > All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very > > light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely > > necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it > > would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently > > only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of > > fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric > > motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's > > another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the > > front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would > > a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? > > -- > > --- > > > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > > Emory University School of Medicine > > Editor-in-Chief > > Molecular Vision > > > > > > > > > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
> Another thing I wonder about is why these motors are being run at rpms so > high that a reduction drive is needed. I always thought that electric motor > develop maximal torque as rpm goes to zero. > Good point, I thought that the torque for an electric motor was just a vertical line starting from zero rpm. -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Somewhat off topic (but funny)
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
> His request approved, the Fox News photographer quickly used a > cell phone to call the local airport to charter a flight. > He was told a twin engine plane would be waiting for him at the > airport. > > Arriving at the airfield, he spotted a plane warming up outside > a hanger. He jumped in with his bag, slammed the door shut, and > shouted, 'Let's go.' The pilot taxied out, swung the plane into the > wind and took > off. Once in the air, the photographer instructed the pilot, > 'Fly over the valley and make low passes so I can take pictures > of the fires on the hillsides.' > 'Why?' asked the pilot. > 'Because I'm a photographer for Fox Cable News,' he responded. > 'And I need to get some close up shots' > > The pilot was strangely silent for a moment. > Finally he stammered, 'So, what you're telling me is .... you're > NOT my flight instructor?' -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Mikee- In fact, the cabanes on 41CC are slanted aft 4". So the engine mount was lengthened a bit to make up some of the moment lost by using the lighter Continental engine instead of the Ford A engine, but moving the wing aft made up for the rest. Thus, the nose on 41CC is pleasantly configured with no Jimmy Durante effect and the cabane slant isn't really noticeable except to Piet purists. The airplane balances very nicely in all configurations and trim forces are light with the bungee setup that I have on it. Here's an excerpt from the archives, posted by Doc Mosher on the subject, perhaps adding some explanation of why all this engine mount and cabane tilting stuff is needed: >Historically, most Piets come out of the jig being tail heavy >because they don't have that heavy Ford A engine on the front >end of the teeter-totter. If you increase the arm of the >engine weight of a 220# Corvair engine, for example, (move it >4 or 5 inches forward of where the Ford used to be) your Piet >will probably not be chronically tailheavy. Then, if you want, >you can tweak it by moving the wing fore or aft- usually aft - >to really set the loaded CG between your goal numbers of 22/34% Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
From: jb.spiegel(at)us.schneider-electric.com
Date: Jun 29, 2009
it looks like a modern day revamp of the flying flea. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Somewhat off topic (but funny)
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Maybe I am reading too much into this hee hee, ha ha.... but why a FOX news guy? Hmmm. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250625#250625 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
Low RPM equals low HP (power) and low efficiency. An electric motor may make its max power at 50% max RPM, while being most efficient at 75%-90% max RPM. Given where battery technology is today, I would opt for less power and more efficiency. :) Also, given max RPM can be 30,000+ the 50% mark also needs a reduction gear anyway. Ameet Omaha, NE --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Jeff Boatright wrote: > Another thing I wonder about is why these motors are being > run at rpms so high that a reduction drive is needed. I > always thought that electric motor develop maximal torque as > rpm goes to zero. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
Date: Jun 29, 2009
The following thoughts are based on really loose, ballpark-only, calculations. I don't stake my reputation on any of it. In cruising flight, that clean little Chinese airplane with long wings probably gets by on around 10 Hp. An airplane like a Pietenpol requires something like 25-50 Hp, or anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 watts. The most efficient currently-available storage batteries can store a little less than 60 Watt-hours per pound, which means that, at an impossible 100% efficiency, it could take more than 600 lbs of batteries to power a Pietenpol for an hour of cruising. This does not take into account the higher power demands of takeoff and climb or any regeneration during descent. If we can cover the top of our 145 sq ft wing with solar cells, we could, theoretically, get another 3000-4000 watts on average, which would extend the range a little. However, we need a little more battery development before we are ready for the electric Piet. A battery-powered motor-glider is much more likely right now. Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:54 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > > > Why couldn't you push some of those batteries ahead of the firewall? thus > helping with the aft CG? And possibly saving the front cockpit for pax. > There is an electric engine guru at our airport. I will ask him what he > thinks. I wonder what RPM it runs at? > > WWBT (What Would Bernard Think?) > > Blue skies, > Steve D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu> > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:49 > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Electtric plane > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > >> >> All of the electric-engined aircraft that I'm aware of have been very >> light and very sleek. I've often wondered if those are absolutely >> necessary. Could an Piet fly with an electric engine? No doubt it >> would require more battery storage, but the Yuneec E430 apparently >> only has 158 lbs of batteries on board. Our Piet can hold 26 gal of >> fuel, so that's 156 lbs right there. I suspect that the electric >> motor weighs much less than a fully-equipped C-85, so maybe there's >> another 100 lbs. If you really wanted to, I guess you could make the >> front cockpit a battery space, so that there's another 170 lbs. Would >> a 4-500lb battery pack fly a Piet? >> -- >> --- >> >> Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor of Ophthalmology >> Emory University School of Medicine >> Editor-in-Chief >> Molecular Vision >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rib Spruce strips
From: "chase143" <chase143(at)aol.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Jim, Well done. That will certainly help some lucky builder. Thanks for the generosity! Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250633#250633 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward than plans
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Like Mike says, the Pietenpol design has a handy feature built-in that allows for CofG adjustments (leaning the cabane struts fore or aft). It is surprising (to me, at least) that tilted cabanes do not appear as obvious as one would expect. I would have thought that a 4" tilt to the rear would look funny, but you really have to look hard to see it. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mc-pietbest .jpg The alternative to tilting the cabanes is to extend the motor mount, and the following shows an Air Camper powered by a Continental A-65 that has vertical cabanes. In order to achieve this, the motor mount had to be extended (if my memory serves me correctly) something in the neighborhood of 9". The nose is definitely a bit longer than usual, but is not as noticable as one would expect. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=Brussels%20 2 008_135.JPG&PhotoID=3949 I suspect a combination of the two is the best approach - extend the motor mount (or the fuselage - might as well make the space usable) by an inch or two, AND tilt the cabanes as needed to stay within the CofG range. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 9:50 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further forward than plans --> Aerospace Corporation]" Oscar-- I find it really interesting that you discovered your 41CC engine mount is 2 3/4" longer than plans. My guess is that your wing is positioned maybe 1-2" "slant-back" from your cabanes being vertical no ? With my motor mount I intentionally made it 1" longer than plans because I'm 200lbs and didn't want to have to slant the wing way, way back to get the CG numbers to work out. As it turned out my wing is 4" aft of the cabane struts in the perfect vertical orientation. Steve E. from Utah (best I can recall) had his wing back SIX inches to make his CG turn out right. Nothing wrong with that but longer motor mounts do for the Cont. 65 does keep builders from having to position the wing back very far. (that's why GN-1's noses look so long--because they are. The reason they are so long is that the wing on a GN-1 is NOT repositionable fore and aft with the way they designed the GN-1 cabane fittings. If your CG comes out wrong on a GN-1 you just can't move the wing fore or aft to fix it-- you have to build a new motor mount or add lead somewhere !!!! Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Yes, its a Ladder Pou or in French a Pouchel. A flying flea made out of aluminum ladders. more on it here: http://www.pouchel.com/english/index_eng.php?p=accueil_eng.htm Garry Gower's in Mexico http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x309/pouchelmex/Pouchel/ http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x309/pouchelmex/La%20Bamba%20en%20el%2 0Aerodromo%20de%20Kordish/ Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: jb.spiegel(at)us.schneider-electric.com it looks like a modern day revamp of the flying flea. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius(at)gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Electtric plane
Date: Jun 29, 2009
some photos of the electric flea http://www.pouchel.com/Essai%20Pouchelec/album/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: jb.spiegel(at)us.schneider-electric.com it looks like a modern day revamp of the flying flea. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Passenger Door
Does anyone know if Yesterday's Wings is still around? After finding out that a passenger door is a possibility, my wife now insists that it is not "optional" anymore. I have a phone number gleaned from the Matronics search function but it is no longer in service. Any help would be appreciated. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Passenger Door
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
The website still seems to be in service: http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/index.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Christmas in late June
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one tube you've been this excited about?!' I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the readers digest arrives!" That would involve long term couch sleeping... :-) Mark Mark Roberts ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: Stu Brown <stu_brown(at)verizon.net>
Subject: Case bushings
I believe you will find polyethylene unsuitable for bushing material PE will cold flow and is not much good above 160F. Polyurethane would be a more suitable choice. Stu Brown Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair mounts From: "skellytown flyer" <rhano(at)att.net> Well I was at the hardware store and found some 1/2" O.D. Polyethylene tubing that seems tough. I think I may try that on my bolts where they pass through the case holes.I will make a mental note to keep watch on them and see if I can see any wear.for sure it would be a good item to inspect at annuals.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250480#250480 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: aluminum paint prep
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Hey, I'm getting ready to paint my cowling. I know I need to etch aluminum prior to priming but can I leave it shiney or do I need to lightly sand it to scuff it up and give it some tooth? Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
Christmas indeed! I got my GN-1 plans in the mail today. Unfortunately, I have to work tonight :( Ameet Savant Omaha, NE --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > > Well, Mrs. Pretty Lady just called and said a rolled up > tube was just delivered to the house... 'was there just one > tube you've been this excited about?!' > > I'm not sure till I get home to see what got there. But at > least I didn't say "hey, I don't make fun of you when the > readers digest arrives!" > > That would involve long term couch sleeping... > > :-) > > Mark > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward than plans
From: John Fay <jfay1950(at)gmail.com>
> What we have done on our piets, (my partner Dave and I) is move the > corvairs we are planning to use 4 inches forward. But we are doing it by > moving the firewall four inches ahead of where the plans have it, thus > extending the front cockpit legroom by four inches, and also expanding the > luggage compartment we are building over the passenger's legs. But we have only built the sides of the fuselages, and have not assembled them, so we have no idea if this will be a success or might cause some unforeseen problems. John Fay in Peoria ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Case bushings
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Teflon would be a good choice too, but you'd probably have to make them yourself from round stock. We used to use it to make parts & equipment for the oceanographic work I did. Fairly rugged, completely chemical resistant, and easy to work. It also won't contaminate sea water samples, but that would only matter to Corky, I suppose :) Would be kind of pricey, I imagine. Kip Gardner On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Stu Brown wrote: > > > I believe you will find polyethylene unsuitable for bushing > material PE will cold flow and is not much good above 160F. > Polyurethane would be a more suitable choice. > > Stu Brown > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair mounts > From: "skellytown flyer" <rhano(at)att.net> > > > Well I was at the hardware store and found some 1/2" O.D. > Polyethylene tubing that > seems tough. I think I may try that on my bolts where they pass > through the > case holes.I will make a mental note to keep watch on them and see > if I can > see any wear.for sure it would be a good item to inspect at > annuals.Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250480#250480 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 2009
Subject: Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward than plans
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Hey Bill: The swept back wings on Mike's plane has almost a hint of "I'm faster than you think I am" look about them... :o) Mark On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:26 PM, John Fay wrote: > > What we have done on our piets, (my partner Dave and I) is move the >> corvairs we are planning to use 4 inches forward. But we are doing it by >> moving the firewall four inches ahead of where the plans have it, thus >> extending the front cockpit legroom by four inches, and also expanding the >> luggage compartment we are building over the passenger's legs. > > But we have only built the sides of the fuselages, and have not assembled > them, so we have no idea if this will be a success or might cause some > unforeseen problems. > > John Fay > in Peoria > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: aluminum paint prep
I would recomend alumiprep, and alodine 1201 as prep work for your aluminum .- If you cant get it localy or don't want to buy it, then at- least sc uff it with scotch brite to take off the shine, and use an etch primer (aut omotive). And clean it very well!! wear gloves prior to picking it up after cleaning, your oily skin will keep paint from sticking.- That should giv e you a good "bite" for your top coats of color --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Douwe Blumberg wrote: From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:01 PM link.net> Hey, I'm getting ready to paint my cowling.- I know I need to etch aluminum pr ior to priming but can I leave it shiney or do I need to lightly sand it to scuff it up and give it some tooth? Douwe le, List Admin. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Christmas in late June
To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify the plans and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, you'll have a gre at one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and talent trying to reinvent some thing. You've chosen to build a genuine, old-timey flying machine so, just DO IT! - Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of getting of f the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some have bastardized it into a role for which it was never intended and then wonder why their 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can twist a key to start it, talk to ATC and fly (legally) after dark but so can a spam can. The point has been mis sed and the soul has been taken out of it. - Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be really, rea lly sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put it on. There will be a boatload-of your own ideas and solutions incorporated into "your" airp lane as you build it without you having to pre-engineer things before you h ave even had a chance to get intimate with the plans. - I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set of plan s for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat it like the pi ece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's roots. Isn't that what attracted you to it in the first place? - Larry counting down from 25 days to go=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: "899PM" <rockriverrifle(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Mark, It's your creation, build it anyway you want. I'll echo previous comments....to a point. Do be very cautious about major changes. I've been around Piets long enough to know that it IS the plans built or very close to plans build planes that come out light and fly well. As an engineer, its in my blood to make changes, tweaks, mods, improvements. etc.....I made a lot of minor changes early on in the building process that I have since gone back and "corrected" to plans. Some I kept. The one major change that I have no regrets about is widening the fuse 2" and deepening it by 3" between the pits. You have to think long term about the effect the changes will have on other assemblies. Deepening the fuse made changes in the gear dims a necessity, no big deal.... I wanted to move the axle forward a few inches anyway. I fixtured the axle in location(in space) and cut gear tubes to suit. Don't make any particular process any more complex than the simple (end result) solution that suits. Deepening the fuse affected the lift struts as well, again no big deal. I will hang the wings on the center section, brace the locations and measure for struts. Don't procrastinate like I did trying to draw out the entire ship in CAD. Spend that time studying the plans and building wing ribs. I have studied the plans for nearly ten years now...to the point that they have nearly become soft tissue....EVERY time I get them out I see something new or something dawns on me as to intent. If you are after a plane that looks, flies and smells like a 1930's era ship, then you chose the best! If not.....well, there are lots of others to look at. -------- PAPA MIKE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250753#250753 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Larry: I agree with you 100% in regards to the changing of the plans to modify the plane into something it was never intended to be. In fact, one of the things that drew me to the plane was it's simplicity. The reason for my mentioning modifications is I was looking at widening the fuse a bit to fit my frame (6'4", currently 250 lbs and losing) and I'd like to see what a 26" wide fuse would do to the design parameters of the build. What parts would need modification and what sizes they'd be. I also read somewhere about making the fuse about 2" deeper, but I don't know if that is something I will try... I am tall, and I'd like to fit better in the plane to enjoy the experience of flying it when I finish, but re-designing a perfectly good airframe is not my expertise. I appreciate your advice, as I agree with the principle behind it whole heartedly. Mark Waiting on $$ now for wood :oD On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Lawrence Williams wrote: > To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify the plans > and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, you'll have a great > one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and talent trying to reinvent > something. You've chosen to build a genuine, old-timey flying machine so, > just DO IT! > > Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of getting > off the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some have bastardized > it into a role for which it was never intended and then wonder why their > 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can twist a key to start it, talk to > ATC and fly (legally) after dark but so can a spam can. The point has been > missed and the soul has been taken out of it. > > Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be really, > really sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put it on. There will > be a boatload of your own ideas and solutions incorporated into "your" > airplane as you build it without you having to pre-engineer things before > you have even had a chance to get intimate with the plans. > > I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set of > plans for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat it like the > piece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's roots. Isn't that > what attracted you to it in the first place? > > Larry > counting down from 25 days to go > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Hey Papa Mike: I just replied to Larry and echoed your post. I have read enough on the thread now to know that mod's to the plane, especially by a rank amature (hey! I got 44 years of building MODEL airplanes :o) is not the plane I want. The only mod's to the airframe that I am wanting to see, is what the additional 2" or so in fuse width at the seats will do to the other dimensions. I also am curious about the additional depth to the fuse at the pilot's seat, as I am 6'4" and don't know if the fuse is deep enough. As to the MAIN reason I am building in CAD first, I need to save some $$ for the first wood and glue purchase. I will be building almost entirely in Poplar, and I can get enough to get most of the fuse done for about $100 here locally. I will need to plane it down my self, and cut it into sticks but that's part of the fun! I plan to use certified Spruce for the spars when I get that far, but I think the rest will be poplar. Other than that I don't want to change anything (well, maybe the front passenger door I saw on Mike and Victor Groah's plane... THAT was very nice...) Thanks for the advice! Mark On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:00 AM, 899PM wrote: > > Mark, > > It's your creation, build it anyway you want. > > I'll echo previous comments....to a point. Do be very cautious about major > changes. I've been around Piets long enough to know that it IS the plans > built or very close to plans build planes that come out light and fly well. > As an engineer, its in my blood to make changes, tweaks, mods, improvements. > etc.....I made a lot of minor changes early on in the building process that > I have since gone back and "corrected" to plans. Some I kept. The one major > change that I have no regrets about is widening the fuse 2" and deepening it > by 3" between the pits. You have to think long term about the effect the > changes will have on other assemblies. Deepening the fuse made changes in > the gear dims a necessity, no big deal.... I wanted to move the axle forward > a few inches anyway. I fixtured the axle in location(in space) and cut gear > tubes to suit. Don't make any particular process any more complex than the > simple (end result) solution that suits. Deepening the fuse affected the > lift struts! > as well, again no big deal. I will hang the wings on the center section, > brace the locations and measure for struts. Don't procrastinate like I did > trying to draw out the entire ship in CAD. Spend that time studying the > plans and building wing ribs. I have studied the plans for nearly ten years > now...to the point that they have nearly become soft tissue....EVERY time I > get them out I see something new or something dawns on me as to intent. > > If you are after a plane that looks, flies and smells like a 1930's era > ship, then you chose the best! If not.....well, there are lots of others to > look at. > > -------- > PAPA MIKE > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250753#250753 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Mark, The thing to do before worrying about modifying the design by making it either wider or deeper would be to try a Piet on for size. Per your height, you would probably want to look at the Corvair/Continental "long fuselage". You could either build a mockup out of whatever wood you have lying about, or better yet just find another builder/owner that has a completed fuselage or flying airplane. I'm sure someone out there on the Left Coast would let you sit in their Piet, for nothing more than an adult beverage or two. Either way, I would find out if fit is going to be an issue before you embark upon the add'l changes, expense, and weight that such mods would incur. Ryan On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Larry: > I agree with you 100% in regards to the changing of the plans to modify the > plane into something it was never intended to be. In fact, one of the things > that drew me to the plane was it's simplicity. > > The reason for my mentioning modifications is I was looking at widening the > fuse a bit to fit my frame (6'4", currently 250 lbs and losing) and I'd like > to see what a 26" wide fuse would do to the design parameters of the build. > What parts would need modification and what sizes they'd be. I also read > somewhere about making the fuse about 2" deeper, but I don't know if that is > something I will try... I am tall, and I'd like to fit better in the plane > to enjoy the experience of flying it when I finish, but re-designing a > perfectly good airframe is not my expertise. > > I appreciate your advice, as I agree with the principle behind it whole > heartedly. > > Mark > Waiting on $$ now for wood :oD > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Lawrence Williams wrote: > >> To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify the >> plans and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, you'll have a >> great one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and talent trying to reinvent >> something. You've chosen to build a genuine, old-timey flying machine so, >> just DO IT! >> >> Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of getting >> off the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some have bastardized >> it into a role for which it was never intended and then wonder why their >> 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can twist a key to start it, talk to >> ATC and fly (legally) after dark but so can a spam can. The point has been >> missed and the soul has been taken out of it. >> >> Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be really, >> really sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put it on. There will >> be a boatload of your own ideas and solutions incorporated into "your" >> airplane as you build it without you having to pre-engineer things before >> you have even had a chance to get intimate with the plans. >> >> I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set of >> plans for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat it like the >> piece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's roots. Isn't that >> what attracted you to it in the first place? >> >> Larry >> counting down from 25 days to go >> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Waxing on about Community...
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Pieters: As of now, I am only about 30 days or so into this particular obsession in my life. At 48 and a half (when did we stop counting the 1/2's?) I have had a few, but this is one I have wanted to make the plunge into for a very several years. Over the brief 43 of those years (my first airplane ride which hooked me was when I was 5) I have wanted to build an airplane, and even did at 6 out of a radio flyer wagon and a 1 x 8 plank I put across it for a wing, and a 2 x 4 with plywood for a tail group. My Dad refused to tow me down the road to get 'airspeed' to test the design, which frustrated me to no end. I know like many of you, I looked for a long time and even bought plans for other designs before eventually returning to the Piet for reasons I've posted before. But here is the reason for my diatribe today: In the last 30 day's, I've see someone GIVE away a Corvair engine, and also, Spruce Wood for wings to whomever replied to the email first. Offered to a bunch of people that many here will never meet face to face due to distance and economics, but still offered and connected due to community. Like you, I've been a member of other lists, groups and clubs, but this bunch does seem to share some of that sense of community that, as Mr. Pietenpol is said to have done, would warm up their engine when someone needed to be flown to the hospital in bad weather. * *I was the lucky recipient of the spruce wing stock that Jim offered up. That will actually allow me to start my project. I just wonder if the attraction of the design draws people that share the 1930's value system of helping others as well. Certainly seems so. Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Good point. I have already been to Mike Groah's shop and saw his Piet in progress, and sat in the seat. It is indeed too small for my shoulders, although not overly so. But as long as i am going to be building from scratch, I'd like to widen it up a bit... On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: > Mark, > > The thing to do before worrying about modifying the design by making it > either wider or deeper would be to try a Piet on for size. Per your height, > you would probably want to look at the Corvair/Continental "long fuselage". > You could either build a mockup out of whatever wood you have lying about, > or better yet just find another builder/owner that has a completed fuselage > or flying airplane. I'm sure someone out there on the Left Coast would let > you sit in their Piet, for nothing more than an adult beverage or two. > Either way, I would find out if fit is going to be an issue before you > embark upon the add'l changes, expense, and weight that such mods would > incur. > > Ryan > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: > >> Larry: >> I agree with you 100% in regards to the changing of the plans to modify >> the plane into something it was never intended to be. In fact, one of the >> things that drew me to the plane was it's simplicity. >> >> The reason for my mentioning modifications is I was looking at widening >> the fuse a bit to fit my frame (6'4", currently 250 lbs and losing) and I'd >> like to see what a 26" wide fuse would do to the design parameters of the >> build. What parts would need modification and what sizes they'd be. I also >> read somewhere about making the fuse about 2" deeper, but I don't know if >> that is something I will try... I am tall, and I'd like to fit better in the >> plane to enjoy the experience of flying it when I finish, but re-designing a >> perfectly good airframe is not my expertise. >> >> I appreciate your advice, as I agree with the principle behind it whole >> heartedly. >> >> Mark >> Waiting on $$ now for wood :oD >> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Lawrence Williams wrote: >> >>> To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify the >>> plans and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, you'll have a >>> great one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and talent trying to reinvent >>> something. You've chosen to build a genuine, old-timey flying machine so, >>> just DO IT! >>> >>> Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of getting >>> off the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some have bastardized >>> it into a role for which it was never intended and then wonder why their >>> 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can twist a key to start it, talk to >>> ATC and fly (legally) after dark but so can a spam can. The point has been >>> missed and the soul has been taken out of it. >>> >>> Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be really, >>> really sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put it on. There will >>> be a boatload of your own ideas and solutions incorporated into "your" >>> airplane as you build it without you having to pre-engineer things before >>> you have even had a chance to get intimate with the plans. >>> >>> I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set of >>> plans for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat it like the >>> piece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's roots. Isn't that >>> what attracted you to it in the first place? >>> >>> Larry >>> counting down from 25 days to go >>> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Oscar's engine mount lengthening-- 2 3/4" further
forward than plans Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Hi John, If I had it to do over I would move the rear instrument panel forward by 2 or 3 inches and recline the rear seat back. This will give much needed room in the rear cockpit, a more comfortable cockpit and put the instrument panel where it can be seen without using tri-focals. And I don't even have mine ready to fly yet!!!!! but its getting ever closer. Jim On Jun 29, 2009, jfay1950(at)gmail.com wrote: What we have done on our piets, (my partner Dave and I) is move the corvairs we are planning to use 4 inches forward. But we are doing it by moving the firewall four inches ahead of where the plans have it, thus extending the front cockpit legroom by four inches, and also expanding the luggage compartment we are building over the passenger's legs. But we have only built the sides of the fuselages, and have not assembled them, so we have no idea if this will be a success or might cause some unforeseen problems. John Fay in Peoria ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: aluminum paint prep
Shad, is that either alumiprep OR alodine 1201? Also, I have always heard to start before the aluminum treatment products with a good scrubbing with water and Dawn dishwashing liquid, to remove any grease or film from the Al. rolling plant, etc. I am not yet at the aluminum stage, but want to be, and am getting closer. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: shad bell Sent: Jun 30, 2009 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep I would recomend alumiprep, and alodine 1201 as prep work for your aluminum. If you cant get it localy or don't want to buy it, then at least scuff it with scotch brite to take off the shine, and use an etch primer (automotive). And clean it very well!! wear gloves prior to picking it up after cleaning, your oily skin will keep paint from sticking. That should give you a good "bite" for your top coats of color --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Douwe Blumberg wrote: From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:01 PM Hey, I'm getting ready to paint my cowling. I know I need to etch aluminum prior to priming but can I leave it shiney or do I need to lightly sand it to scuff it up and ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List _sp; --> ht= --> Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Waxing on about Community...
My 2 cents on this: I visited a local GN-1 builder/pilot before I joined the list. I tried the plane on for size. We couldn't fly because she was going to get a new engine and he hadn't taken her out of hibernation as it was barely Spring then. Bob is one of the friendliest, most helpful guy I ever met. (Aren't all Bob's in aviation great?) He said something that stuck with me- "You can build any airplane you want, but you will not find better people than Pietenpol builders". Now, he does not belong to this list. He completed his GN-1 some 30 years ago. After I joined the list I was pleasantly surprised to see nothing has changed in those 30 years. Pieters are still just as nice as they were before. Who wouldn't want to belong to this group? I hope to be at least 1/2 as nice and generous as others have been to me. Keep up the good work! Ameet Savant Omaha, NE --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Mark Roberts wrote: > From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Waxing on about Community... > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 10:47 AM > Pieters: > As of now, I am only about 30 days or so into > this particular obsession in my life. At 48 and a half (when > did we stop counting the 1/2's?) I have had a few, but > this is one I have wanted to make the plunge into for a very > several years. Over the brief 43 of those years (my first > airplane ride which hooked me was when I was 5) I have > wanted to build an airplane, and even did at 6 out of a > radio flyer wagon and a 1 x 8 plank I put across it for a > wing, and a 2 x 4 with plywood for a tail group. My Dad > refused to tow me down the road to get 'airspeed' to > test the design, which frustrated me to no end. > > I know like many of you, I looked for a long > time and even bought plans for other designs before > eventually returning to the Piet for reasons I've posted > before. > But here is the reason for my diatribe today: In > the last 30 day's, I've see someone GIVE away a > Corvair engine, and also, Spruce Wood for wings to whomever > replied to the email first. Offered to a bunch of people > that many here will never meet face to face due to distance > and economics, but still offered and connected due to > community. > > Like you, I've been a member of other lists, > groups and clubs, but this bunch does seem to share some of > that sense of community that, as Mr. Pietenpol is said to > have done, would warm up their engine when someone needed to > be flown to the hospital in bad weather. > > I was the luckyrecipientof > thesprucewing stock that Jim offered up. That will > actually allow me to start my project. > I just wonder if the attraction of the design > draws people that share the 1930's value system of > helping others as well. Certainly seems so. > > Mark > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Mark, Several folks on this list have widened the fuse by 2 inches (I think Jack Phillips for one?) & can probably give you some advice on what's involved. I seem to recall comments about the fact that widening increases the material costs , as some pieces can no longer all be cut from a single piece of 4 x 8 ply? Kip Gardner On Jun 30, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > Good point. I have already been to Mike Groah's shop and saw his > Piet in progress, and sat in the seat. It is indeed too small for > my shoulders, although not overly so. But as long as i am going to > be building from scratch, I'd like to widen it up a bit... > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Ryan Mueller > wrote: > Mark, > > The thing to do before worrying about modifying the design by > making it either wider or deeper would be to try a Piet on for > size. Per your height, you would probably want to look at the > Corvair/Continental "long fuselage". You could either build a > mockup out of whatever wood you have lying about, or better yet > just find another builder/owner that has a completed fuselage or > flying airplane. I'm sure someone out there on the Left Coast would > let you sit in their Piet, for nothing more than an adult beverage > or two. Either way, I would find out if fit is going to be an issue > before you embark upon the add'l changes, expense, and weight that > such mods would incur. > > Ryan > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Mark Roberts > wrote: > Larry: > > I agree with you 100% in regards to the changing of the plans to > modify the plane into something it was never intended to be. In > fact, one of the things that drew me to the plane was it's simplicity. > > The reason for my mentioning modifications is I was looking at > widening the fuse a bit to fit my frame (6'4", currently 250 lbs > and losing) and I'd like to see what a 26" wide fuse would do to > the design parameters of the build. What parts would need > modification and what sizes they'd be. I also read somewhere about > making the fuse about 2" deeper, but I don't know if that is > something I will try... I am tall, and I'd like to fit better in > the plane to enjoy the experience of flying it when I finish, but > re-designing a perfectly good airframe is not my expertise. > > I appreciate your advice, as I agree with the principle behind it > whole heartedly. > > Mark > Waiting on $$ now for wood :oD > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Lawrence Williams > wrote: > To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify > the plans and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, > you'll have a great one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and > talent trying to reinvent something. You've chosen to build a > genuine, old-timey flying machine so, just DO IT! > > Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of > getting off the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some > have bastardized it into a role for which it was never intended and > then wonder why their 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can > twist a key to start it, talk to ATC and fly (legally) after dark > but so can a spam can. The point has been missed and the soul has > been taken out of it. > > Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be > really, really sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put > it on. There will be a boatload of your own ideas and solutions > incorporated into "your" airplane as you build it without you > having to pre-engineer things before you have even had a chance to > get intimate with the plans. > > I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set > of plans for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat > it like the piece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's > roots. Isn't that what attracted you to it in the first place? > > Larry > counting down from 25 days to go > > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
A good time to toss out the reminder that the Pietenpol list has searchable archives located at: http://www.matronics.com/search. For example, a search of the archives reveals the following message that Jack wrote back in Nov '04: ------------------------- A few thoughts on widening the fuselage. I did that on my Pietenpol, and if I were to do it over I would still make it wider than plans. I widened mine by 1", making it 25" wide. Mine is the long fuselage version. I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs and felt I needed the extra room in the cockpit. I have flown short fuselage, standard width Piets, and they are just a little too tight for me. There are downsides to widening it, though. They are: 1. Weight. Long fuselage Piets tend to be heavier than standrd length Piets, most weighing in around 700 to 750 lbs according to Doc Mosher's survey at Brodhead a few years ago. Making it wider adds more weight. Mine weighs 735 lbs, which is a tad over 100 lbs heavier than Mike Cuy's. It shows in its climb performance. 2. Cost. Ol' Bernard knew what he was doing, designing the plane to be as economical as possible. the stand width allows a 48" sheet of plywood to be plit lengthwise and make two pieces that will fitthe fuselage. Making it any wider requires two sheets, with lots of waste. 3. Complexity. Widening the fuselage means the cabane struts are spaced further apart, which requires modification to the wing. One little change snowballs into several changes, rippling throughout the airframe. As I can recall, those changes included: a. Making the centersection spar longer (I went ahead and made mine 6" longer to give me more fuel capacity) b. Making the fuselage taller, to keep the proportions with the wider fuselage (not a bad thing - it gives more room in the instrument panel) Again, if I had it to do over, I would still make it wider. Just realize there are downsides to it, most notably weight. Sure makes it nice on those cold mornings when I have to wear a heavy leather jacket to fly it comfortably, though. Jack Phillips NX899JP ---------------------------------- On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Kip and Beth Gardner < kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> wrote: > Mark, > Several folks on this list have widened the fuse by 2 inches (I think Jack > Phillips for one?) & can probably give you some advice on what's involved. > I seem to recall comments about the fact that widening increases the > material costs , as some pieces can no longer all be cut from a single piece > of 4 x 8 ply? > > Kip Gardner > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
>From what I gather, the longerons for the fuselage are bent in the jig dry. (the curved bottom)- After the sides are built in the jig, has anyone ex perienced the top longerons being pulled down by the bottom longerons as th ey try to un-bend? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
Corky made the fuselage on my project 3 inches wider than plans, and it helps in the shoulders and elbows, big time. I am 6'1" and 260 lbs. I still had to widen and heighten the "shinholes" around the passenger seat, and would have liked to have the fuze-- or least the instrument panel-- two more inches taller. Corky can attest to my original fit problems as we looked for mayonnaise or fiberglass release compound to get me out of the cockpit. Corky also made the center wing 36 inches wide. Whether with a cutout or a flipper, the greater width allows the pilot's shoulder to clear the center wing stuff better, getting in and out. I have seen one Piet that was 42" across the center wing, and it cants out the cabanes quite a bit, but so what, if the hardware is adapted, for it's another triangulation. And that could make space for a great center wing tank. BTW, I also have a short fuze Piet of standard build and my elbows will not fit inside it, and my entire hand and wrist aligns inside where the instrument panel would be. My oversize ass actually fits in it OK, but with the standard cutouts around the passenger seat, my feet fit only without shoes, and the shins hit, too. If I keep that fuze, I might build a single place Piet with more leg room and baggage area, and a larger tank. Who knows... one project at a time. As Jack says, you need enough room to fly the plane comfortably, and may thus have to take some weight penalties. You may need more power than an A-65 or Model A if you get the plane weight over 700 pounds. What engine do you plan? Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Jun 30, 2009 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June A good time to toss out the reminder that the Pietenpol list has searchable archives located at: http://www.matronics.com/search. For example, a search of the archives reveals the following message that Jack wrote back in Nov '04: ------------------------- A few thoughts on widening the fuselage. I did that on my Pietenpol, and if I were to do it over I would still make it wider than plans. I widened mine by 1", making it 25" wide. Mine is the long fuselage version. I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs and felt I needed the extra room in the cockpit. I have flown short fuselage, standard width Piets, and they are just a little too tight for me. There are downsides to widening it, though. They are: 1. Weight. Long fuselage Piets tend to be heavier than standrd length Piets, most weighing in around 700 to 750 lbs according to Doc Mosher's survey at Brodhead a few years ago. Making it wider adds more weight. Mine weighs 735 lbs, which is a tad over 100 lbs heavier than Mike Cuy's. It shows in its climb performance. 2. Cost. Ol' Bernard knew what he was doing, designing the plane to be as economical as possible. the stand width allows a 48" sheet of plywood to be plit lengthwise and make two pieces that will fitthe fuselage. Making it any wider requires two sheets, with lots of waste. 3. Complexity. Widening the fuselage means the cabane struts are spaced further apart, which requires modification to the wing. One little change snowballs into several changes, rippling throughout the airframe. As I can recall, those changes included: a. Making the centersection spar longer (I went ahead and made mine 6" longer to give me more fuel capacity) b. Making the fuselage taller, to keep the proportions with the wider fuselage (not a bad thing - it gives more room in the instrument panel) Again, if I had it to do over, I would still make it wider. Just realize there are downsides to it, most notably weight. Sure makes it nice on those cold mornings when I have to wear a heavy leather jacket to fly it comfortably, though. Jack Phillips NX899JP ---------------------------------- On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Kip and Beth Gardner wrote: Mark, Several folks on this list have widened the fuse by 2 inches (I think Jack Phillips for one?) & can probably give you some advice on what's involved. I seem to recall comments about the fact that widening increases the material costs , as some pieces can no longer all be cut from a single piece of 4 x 8 ply? Kip Gardner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Michael, The bracing seems to be such that the lower longerons cannot pull the straightness out of the uppers. You will find the whole process a non-event, taking less than =BD a day. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear (13 ribs down=85) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending >From what I gather, the longerons for the fuselage are bent in the jig dry. (the curved bottom) After the sides are built in the jig, has anyone experienced the top longerons being pulled down by the bottom longerons as they try to un-bend? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuse. longerons bending
I have a 27 inch inside and 29" outside dimension that I carried from the firewall to the back of the pilots seat and had no problems with dry bending or changes to the upper longerons John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuse. longerons bending
I would make 2 suggestions though: First: Do not add gusset plates until after the bend. Before the bend on the flat the gusset plates keep the structure rigid and work against you as a force to try to over come. Adding them after the bend is made , they work to hold the new shape and help to reduce the opposing forces reducing the tension. Second; I found doing the tail match up the angles are harder to cut after the fact, you may want to omit the very last piece at the tail and all it in once you have the structure bent into shape and not completely glued up so you caqn work on fitting the 2 halves together more neatly on a single piece of wood rather than the 2 pieces that make up the tail post Just some things I learned and others I wish I would have considered. John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
You might want to re-think delaying the installation of the gussets until after bringing the two sides together. Firstly, the gussets go on both faces of the fuselage sides, and the cross pieces butt up to the face of the inside gussets. You would have to notch all of your interior gussets around the cross pieces. And secondly, there was a posting on the List not that long ago from a builder who built his fuselage sides without gussets, and when flexing them to bring the tail ends together, the whole thing fell apart. The strength of the glue joint relies almost entirely on the gussets. Ideally, one would build the two fuselage sides pre-curved to the correct shape, but that isn't practical. The curvature in the fuselage sides is pretty gentle, and spruce is flexible enough to bend without difficulty with the gussets in place. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending Do not add gusset plates until after the bend. Before the bend on the flat the gusset plates keep the structure rigid and work against you as a force to try to over come. Adding them after the bend is made , they work to hold the new shape and help to reduce the opposing forces reducing the tension. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuse. longerons bending
Did mine without the gussets in place and it worked out great. I also read of a similar account with gussets in place and the guy fount it impossible to get the bend and eventually ended up having some wood relieve the stress by breaking. I guess its a matter of who's account one is willing to follow and which suggestions to go I have had no problems out of mine and did not have to stretch or stress the gussets to bend so they now act as a force that holds the bend and resists the tendency for the bent wood to return to shape. John **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Passenger Door
From: "womenfly2" <keriannprice(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Hi All, still around and my plans are still available. Click on the link above, thanks for posting it! Cheers, Keri-Ann Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250831#250831 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Abramson" <davea(at)symbolicdisplays.com>
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
Date: Jun 30, 2009
per the plans..... you apply the gussets to boht sides before joining together.... If memory serves... Cheers, Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:06 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending You might want to re-think delaying the installation of the gussets until after bringing the two sides together. Firstly, the gussets go on both faces of the fuselage sides, and the cross pieces butt up to the face of the inside gussets. You would have to notch all of your interior gussets around the cross pieces. And secondly, there was a posting on the List not that long ago from a builder who built his fuselage sides without gussets, and when flexing them to bring the tail ends together, the whole thing fell apart. The strength of the glue joint relies almost entirely on the gussets. Ideally, one would build the two fuselage sides pre-curved to the correct shape, but that isn't practical. The curvature in the fuselage sides is pretty gentle, and spruce is flexible enough to bend without difficulty with the gussets in place. Bill C. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:46 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending Do not add gusset plates until after the bend. Before the bend on the flat the gusset plates keep the structure rigid and work against you as a force to try to over come. Adding them after the bend is made , they work to hold the new shape and help to reduce the opposing forces reducing the tension. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Christmas in late June
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Correct, Kip. Except I only widened mine to 25". That still required an entire extra sheet of aircraft grade Plywood (and shipping). That is one change I would definitely not do if I had it to do over. The 24" cockpit is plenty big enough. I'm 6'2" and over 200 lbs and I fit just fine in the standard cockpit. Snug, but what are you going to do, start dancing? For what it's worth, very few airplanes allocate 22" width per occupant. My old Cessna 140 was only 35" wide, for two people to sit side by side - now THAT was tight! My RV-4 is about 21" between the longerons (I'll have to measure it someday, but it is nowhere near as wide as my Pietenpol), and it is comfortable enough. Making it wider did little for comfort but definitely increased the cost and definitely increased the weight. It also forced changes to ripple throughout the rest of the project, such as landing gear geometry, cabane fittings, and engine mount. The first time you fly on a really hot day you will begrudge every little change you made that added weight. As Walt Evans is fond of saying, "Simplicate and add Lightness". Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kip and Beth Gardner Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June Mark, Several folks on this list have widened the fuse by 2 inches (I think Jack Phillips for one?) & can probably give you some advice on what's involved. I seem to recall comments about the fact that widening increases the material costs , as some pieces can no longer all be cut from a single piece of 4 x 8 ply? Kip Gardner On Jun 30, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: Good point. I have already been to Mike Groah's shop and saw his Piet in progress, and sat in the seat. It is indeed too small for my shoulders, although not overly so. But as long as i am going to be building from scratch, I'd like to widen it up a bit... On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote: Mark, The thing to do before worrying about modifying the design by making it either wider or deeper would be to try a Piet on for size. Per your height, you would probably want to look at the Corvair/Continental "long fuselage". You could either build a mockup out of whatever wood you have lying about, or better yet just find another builder/owner that has a completed fuselage or flying airplane. I'm sure someone out there on the Left Coast would let you sit in their Piet, for nothing more than an adult beverage or two. Either way, I would find out if fit is going to be an issue before you embark upon the add'l changes, expense, and weight that such mods would incur. Ryan On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: Larry: I agree with you 100% in regards to the changing of the plans to modify the plane into something it was never intended to be. In fact, one of the things that drew me to the plane was it's simplicity. The reason for my mentioning modifications is I was looking at widening the fuse a bit to fit my frame (6'4", currently 250 lbs and losing) and I'd like to see what a 26" wide fuse would do to the design parameters of the build. What parts would need modification and what sizes they'd be. I also read somewhere about making the fuse about 2" deeper, but I don't know if that is something I will try... I am tall, and I'd like to fit better in the plane to enjoy the experience of flying it when I finish, but re-designing a perfectly good airframe is not my expertise. I appreciate your advice, as I agree with the principle behind it whole heartedly. Mark Waiting on $$ now for wood :oD On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:04 AM, Lawrence Williams wrote: To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify the plans and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, you'll have a great one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and talent trying to reinvent something. You've chosen to build a genuine, old-timey flying machine so, just DO IT! Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of getting off the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some have bastardized it into a role for which it was never intended and then wonder why their 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can twist a key to start it, talk to ATC and fly (legally) after dark but so can a spam can. The point has been missed and the soul has been taken out of it. Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be really, really sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put it on. There will be a boatload of your own ideas and solutions incorporated into "your" airplane as you build it without you having to pre-engineer things before you have even had a chance to get intimate with the plans. I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set of plans for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat it like the piece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's roots. Isn't that what attracted you to it in the first place? Larry counting down from 25 days to go " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Not if the plywood sides are glued on before removing it from the jig _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending >From what I gather, the longerons for the fuselage are bent in the jig dry. (the curved bottom) After the sides are built in the jig, has anyone experienced the top longerons being pulled down by the bottom longerons as they try to un-bend? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Christmas in late June
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Having just read Ryan's post where I was quoted as saying that I would advocate making the fuselage wider, that post was written in the winter, when performance is not a problem and bulky clothing is. I just flew mine this afternoon on a 96 degree day - solo. Performance was fine. But last Wednesday, I flew it with my wife (who is NOT particularly heavy) on a 94 degree day and we barely cleared the trees, which don't start until you are a good 400 yards from the end of the 3100' runway. So I'm changing my recommendation - You need TWO Pietenpols. One with a standard fuselage and as light as possible for summer flying, and a larger one for the winter. Preferably with a canopy and a heater. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:12 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June Corky made the fuselage on my project 3 inches wider than plans, and it helps in the shoulders and elbows, big time. I am 6'1" and 260 lbs. I still had to widen and heighten the "shinholes" around the passenger seat, and would have liked to have the fuze-- or least the instrument panel-- two more inches taller. Corky can attest to my original fit problems as we looked for mayonnaise or fiberglass release compound to get me out of the cockpit. Corky also made the center wing 36 inches wide. Whether with a cutout or a flipper, the greater width allows the pilot's shoulder to clear the center wing stuff better, getting in and out. I have seen one Piet that was 42" across the center wing, and it cants out the cabanes quite a bit, but so what, if the hardware is adapted, for it's another triangulation. And that could make space for a great center wing tank. BTW, I also have a short fuze Piet of standard build and my elbows will not fit inside it, and my entire hand and wrist aligns inside where the instrument panel would be. My oversize ass actually fits in it OK, but with the standard cutouts around the passenger seat, my feet fit only without shoes, and the shins hit, too. If I keep that fuze, I might build a single place Piet with more leg room and baggage area, and a larger tank. Who knows... one project at a time. As Jack says, you need enough room to fly the plane comfortably, and may thus have to take some weight penalties. You may need more power than an A-65 or Model A if you get the plane weight over 700 pounds. What engine do you plan? Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Jun 30, 2009 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June A good time to toss out the reminder that the Pietenpol list has searchable archives located at: http://www.matronics.com/search. For example, a search of the archives reveals the following message that Jack wrote back in Nov '04: ------------------------- A few thoughts on widening the fuselage. I did that on my Pietenpol, and if I were to do it over I would still make it wider than plans. I widened mine by 1", making it 25" wide. Mine is the long fuselage version. I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs and felt I needed the extra room in the cockpit. I have flown short fuselage, standard width Piets, and they are just a little too tight for me. There are downsides to widening it, though. They are: 1. Weight. Long fuselage Piets tend to be heavier than standrd length Piets, most weighing in around 700 to 750 lbs according to Doc Mosher's survey at Brodhead a few years ago. Making it wider adds more weight. Mine weighs 735 lbs, which is a tad over 100 lbs heavier than Mike Cuy's. It shows in its climb performance. 2. Cost. Ol' Bernard knew what he was doing, designing the plane to be as economical as possible. the stand width allows a 48" sheet of plywood to be plit lengthwise and make two pieces that will fitthe fuselage. Making it any wider requires two sheets, with lots of waste. 3. Complexity. Widening the fuselage means the cabane struts are spaced further apart, which requires modification to the wing. One little change snowballs into several changes, rippling throughout the airframe. As I can recall, those changes included: a. Making the centersection spar longer (I went ahead and made mine 6" longer to give me more fuel capacity) b. Making the fuselage taller, to keep the proportions with the wider fuselage (not a bad thing - it gives more room in the instrument panel) Again, if I had it to do over, I would still make it wider. Just realize there are downsides to it, most notably weight. Sure makes it nice on those cold mornings when I have to wear a heavy leather jacket to fly it comfortably, though. Jack Phillips NX899JP ---------------------------------- On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Kip and Beth Gardner wrote: Mark, Several folks on this list have widened the fuse by 2 inches (I think Jack Phillips for one?) & can probably give you some advice on what's involved. I seem to recall comments about the fact that widening increases the material costs , as some pieces can no longer all be cut from a single piece of 4 x 8 ply? Kip Gardner ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: "Bill Church" <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
I've never heard of such a thing happening, but if it did, THAT guy should consider himself VERY lucky. If his longerons snapped from the relatively small forces imposed on them by bending to join at the tail, his wood must have been extremely inferior, and would not have held up to the stresses it would see in flight. As long as the gussets get properly glued in place, it doesn't really make any difference whether they are glued on before or after the sides get brought together. The stresses imposed on the gussets by bringing the sides together are insignificant, and the forces required to bring the two sides together are not big either. The vast majority of Pietenpols have been built with the gussets installed first, so it can't be that big a problem. It's really up to each builder to decide how to put his plane together - I just don't see any real advantage to installing the gussets later. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse. longerons bending I also read of a similar account with gussets in place and the guy fount it impossible to get the bend and eventually ended up having some wood relieve the stress by breaking. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Prop install
From: "skellytown flyer" <rhano(at)att.net>
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Well I'm about ready to bolt the prop on my Corvair-it's been sitting safely in the living room since I got it home from Arizona.it looks like a Tennessee Prop and I don't know if I got the torque recommendations from DJ or not.but I can probably find them on the net.What I'm wondering is if there is a proper clocking of the prop on the Corvair crank to help with vibrations or prevent cracking? Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250848#250848 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Prop install
Date: Jun 30, 2009
With the engine set to #1 cylinder on TDC, set your prop to horizontal. Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of skellytown flyer Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Prop install Well I'm about ready to bolt the prop on my Corvair-it's been sitting safely in the living room since I got it home from Arizona.it looks like a Tennessee Prop and I don't know if I got the torque recommendations from DJ or not.but I can probably find them on the net.What I'm wondering is if there is a proper clocking of the prop on the Corvair crank to help with vibrations or prevent cracking? Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250848#250848 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
From: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com>
Well, heck. It's 106 degrees here today, and it hovers for a fair amount of time at about 98 or so most days from June to September. Starts to cool off a BIT in October. So I guess I'll have to watch every ounce. I was thinking of only adding 2" to the fuse, as the 20" at the shoulders at the pilot's seat is not the most comfortable. I am guessing though that keeping it 24" to the rear of the pilot's seat then bending back toward the tail would be OK?? No real added weight there, but accomplishing the same full 22" at the shoulders.... and tthe material costs, (Mainly the plywood sheets) would remain essentially the same... Mark On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: > pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> > > Having just read Ryan's post where I was quoted as saying that I would > advocate making the fuselage wider, that post was written in the winter, > when performance is not a problem and bulky clothing is. I just flew mine > this afternoon on a 96 degree day - solo. Performance was fine. But last > Wednesday, I flew it with my wife (who is NOT particularly heavy) on a 94 > degree day and we barely cleared the trees, which don't start until you are > a good 400 yards from the end of the 3100' runway. So I'm changing my > recommendation - You need TWO Pietenpols. One with a standard fuselage and > as light as possible for summer flying, and a larger one for the winter. > Preferably with a canopy and a heater. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:12 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June > > > > Corky made the fuselage on my project 3 inches wider than plans, and it > helps in the shoulders and elbows, big time. I > am 6'1" and 260 lbs. I still had to widen and heighten the "shinholes" > around the passenger seat, and would have liked to have the fuze-- or least > the instrument panel-- two more inches taller. Corky can attest to my > original fit problems as we looked for mayonnaise or fiberglass release > compound to get me out of the cockpit. > > Corky also made the center wing 36 inches wide. Whether with a cutout or a > flipper, the greater width allows the pilot's shoulder to clear the center > wing stuff better, getting in and out. I have seen one Piet that was 42" > across the center wing, and it cants out the cabanes quite a bit, but so > what, if the hardware is adapted, for it's another triangulation. And that > could make space for a great center wing tank. > > BTW, I also have a short fuze Piet of standard build and my elbows will not > fit inside it, and my entire hand and wrist aligns inside where the > instrument panel would be. My oversize ass actually fits in it OK, but > with > the standard cutouts around the passenger seat, my feet fit only without > shoes, and the shins hit, too. If I keep that fuze, I might build a single > place Piet with more leg room and baggage area, and a larger tank. Who > knows... one project at a time. > > As Jack says, you need enough room to fly the plane comfortably, and may > thus have to take some weight penalties. You may need more power than an > A-65 or Model A if you get the plane weight over 700 pounds. What engine > do > you plan? > > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Mueller > Sent: Jun 30, 2009 1:35 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June > > A good time to toss out the reminder that the Pietenpol list has searchable > archives located at: http://www.matronics.com/search. For example, a > search > of the archives reveals the following message that Jack wrote back in Nov > '04: > > ------------------------- > A few thoughts on widening the fuselage. I did that on my Pietenpol, and > if > I were to do it over I would still make it wider than plans. I widened > mine > by 1", making it 25" wide. Mine is the long fuselage version. I'm 6'2" > and > 200 lbs and felt I needed the extra room in the cockpit. I have flown > short > fuselage, standard width Piets, and they are just a little too tight for > me. > > There are downsides to widening it, though. They are: > > 1. Weight. Long fuselage Piets tend to be heavier than standrd length > Piets, most weighing in around 700 to 750 lbs according to Doc Mosher's > survey at Brodhead a few years ago. Making it wider adds more weight. Mine > weighs 735 lbs, which is a tad over 100 lbs heavier than Mike Cuy's. It > shows in its climb performance. > > 2. Cost. Ol' Bernard knew what he was doing, designing the plane to be as > economical as possible. the stand width allows a 48" sheet of plywood to > be > plit lengthwise and make two pieces that will fitthe fuselage. Making it > any wider requires two sheets, with lots of waste. > > 3. Complexity. Widening the fuselage means the cabane struts are spaced > further apart, which requires modification to the wing. One little change > snowballs into several changes, rippling throughout the airframe. As I can > recall, those changes included: > > a. Making the centersection spar longer (I went ahead and made mine 6" > longer to give me more fuel capacity) > b. Making the fuselage taller, to keep the proportions with the wider > fuselage (not a bad thing - it gives more room in the instrument panel) > > Again, if I had it to do over, I would still make it wider. Just realize > there are downsides to it, most notably weight. Sure makes it nice on > those > cold mornings when I have to wear a heavy leather jacket to fly it > comfortably, though. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > ---------------------------------- > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Kip and Beth Gardner > wrote: > > > Mark, > > > Several folks on this list have widened the fuse by 2 inches (I think Jack > Phillips for one?) & can probably give you some advice on what's involved. > I seem to recall comments about the fact that widening increases the > material costs , as some pieces can no longer all be cut from a single > piece > of 4 x 8 ply? > > > Kip Gardner > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Christmas in late June
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Larry, AMEN!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Tue, Jun 30, 2009 8:04 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Christmas in late June To quote one of the more vocal Pietenpol pioneers,"You can modify the plans and build a good airplane but if you build to the plans, you'll have a great one." ie. Don't dribble way your time and talent trying to reinvent something. You've chosen to build a genuine, old-timey flying machine so, just DO IT! ? Remember that the airplane was originally just for the thrill of getting off the ground once in a while if the wx cooperated. Some have bastardized it into a role for which it was never intended and then wonder why their 850# hulk is no fun to fly. Sure, they can twist a key to start it, talk to ATC and fly (legally) after dark but so can a spam can. The point has been missed and the soul has been taken out of it. ? Keep it as simple as possible. If you want to add something, be really, really sure you're willing to sacrifice the weight to put it on. There will be a boatload?of your own ideas and solutions incorporated into "your" airplane as you build it without you having to pre-engineer things before you have even had a chance to get intimate with the plans. ? I guess the R.D. version is this: You have in your possession a set of plans for an airplane that was designed over 80 years ago. Treat it like the piece of Americana that it is and keep it true to it's roots. Isn't that what attracted you to it in the first place? ? Larry counting down from 25 days to go ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Subject: Re: aluminum paint prep
From: Lloyd Smith <lesmith240(at)gmail.com>
A good scrubbing with a degreaser first will help the following treatments work better. When prepping wheels at work for paint, I scrub the alumiprep into the aluminum with a burgundy scotchbrite pad. On new sheet metal, a finer pad would be fine. Rinse well with water, then apply the alodine. It's available in two types, one will leave a light golden color, the other is clear. If you're painting, either work equally well, if leaving natural, use clear. When applying the alodine, do not allow it to dry on the part. Keep it moistened with alodine for 3-5 minutes, then rinse with clear water. As stated, use gloves to prevent skin oils from contaminating the part. A good two part primer is recommended. The one we use on our wheels is a water borne primer with hardly any odor. Then follow with your topcoat. Follow the manufcturers recommendations, many times if you go beyond a certain time after priming, you need to scuff the part prior to top coating. On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim Willis wrote: > timothywillis(at)earthlink.net> > > Shad, is that either alumiprep OR alodine 1201? > > Also, I have always heard to start before the aluminum treatment products > with a good scrubbing with water and Dawn dishwashing liquid, to remove any > grease or film from the Al. rolling plant, etc. > > I am not yet at the aluminum stage, but want to be, and am getting closer. > > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- > From: shad bell > Sent: Jun 30, 2009 7:59 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep > > > I would recomend alumiprep, and alodine 1201 as prep work for your > aluminum. If you cant get it localy or don't want to buy it, then at least > scuff it with scotch brite to take off the shine, and use an etch primer > (automotive). And clean it very well!! wear gloves prior to picking it up > after cleaning, your oily skin will keep paint from sticking. That should > give you a good "bite" for your top coats of color > > --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Douwe Blumberg wrote: > > > From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum paint prep > To: "pietenpolgroup" > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 9:01 PM > > > douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> > > Hey, > > I'm getting ready to paint my cowling. I know I need to etch aluminum > prior > to priming but can I leave it shiney or do I need to lightly sand it to > scuff it up and ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target=_blank> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > _sp; --> ht= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution" ="===== > > -- If we don't try, we don't do. And if we don't do, then why are we on this earth? Jimmy Stewart, "Shenandoah" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: seeing the instruments
Date: Jun 30, 2009
Jim; I worried about seeing the instruments. I need "cheaters" or bifocals to see things up close and the restrictions on my airman medical say I need to have corrective lenses when I fly. I wear contact lenses for distant vision but for near vision I always carry reading glasses with me when I fly but I've never had occasion to take them out because I can always see what needs to be seen without them. I have NO digital displays or instruments but if I did, I might need those readers to see some of the text. With analog gauges, a quick glance shows me what I need to know without hesitating or guessing. Can you tell that I'm a "steam gauge" type of guy? ;o) When I fly X-C, I fly with a kneeboard and a folded sectional, with my route of flight laid out and highlighted. I have not had any problem seeing my next checkpoint on the chart, down on my knee in the cockpit. I'm in a little bit of trouble if I have to read the airport info or radio frequencies in tiny print on the chart or if I need to read the tenths and hundredths of tach time in the little window on the tach but, oddly enough, I have no trouble dialing in the altimeter reading (barometric pressure) in the Kollsman window. I can read every gauge on the panel and everything in the panel of 41CC is a dial instrument, set in the stock configuration per plans, and with the green-yellow-red ranges marked on the gauges. Even a child can tell if everything is in the green and that's all you need to see in flight. When you're flying a Piet, the first one or two digits on the right of any gauge readout don't interest you anyway ;o) Don't over-think this stuff. If you sit in the shop and worry about what-ifs, you'll worry yourself silly and you'll never finish the airplane. I am also a scuba diver and I tend to use the same philosophy in my dive gear... simple and lean. I have to laugh as I watch gadget freaks waddle off with things hanging from clips and lanyards all over their suits and BCs, and with plotters and aids and gizmos on every D-ring and strap... and they get so consumed with what might happen that they never enjoy the dive. Me, I fly the airplane and just check the gauges to confirm what the airplane and engine are telling me. The Piet talks real pretty and sweet, and only an occasional glance at the gauges is needed to confirm what the airplane tells you. I never thought I'd say this since I'm an engineer and a detailer, CAD designer and an experimenter, but the Piet design is well proven for over 80 years now, so I'm going to join the chorus and here goes: "build it to the plans and you'll do just fine!" Any changes you want to make, you can make after you fly off those test hours or after you start your NEXT Piet and are enjoying flying your first one!!!! Yes, there are repeat offenders on this list... I already have a set of landing gear and a Corvair engine and prop for my next Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: seeing the instruments
I bought from Aircraft Spruce a set of focal lenses which fit right into yo ur goggles.They are flexible;you just spit on them and move them into place and then leave them there.They stay in place unless you lift them off to m ove them to another set of goggles if you wish.I find they work quite well and I am considering ordering another set for another set of goggles which -I have.I need them for reading.They even funtion for reading the instrum ents in the front cockpit.I think I paid around $20 for them but you may fi nd them cheaper elsewhere.-=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________ _=0AFrom: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>=0ATo: Pietenpol List <pieten pol-list(at)matronics.com>=0ASent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 10:31:49 PM=0ASubjec t: Pietenpol-List: seeing the instruments=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message p osted by: Oscar Zuniga =0A=0A=0AJim;=0A=0AI worried about seeing the instruments.- I need "cheaters" or=0Abifocals to see thi ngs up close and the restrictions on my=0Aairman medical say I need to have corrective lenses when I=0Afly.- I wear contact lenses for distant visio n but for near=0Avision I always carry reading glasses with me when I fly b ut=0AI've never had occasion to take them out because I can always=0Asee wh at needs to be seen without them.- I have NO digital=0Adisplays or instru ments but if I did, I might need those readers=0Ato see some of the text. W ith analog gauges, a quick glance=0Ashows me what I need to know without he sitating or guessing.=0ACan you tell that I'm a "steam gauge" type of guy? - ;o)=0A=0AWhen I fly X-C, I fly with a kneeboard and a folded sectional, =0Awith my route of flight laid out and highlighted.- I have not=0Ahad an y problem seeing my next checkpoint on the chart, down=0Aon my knee in the cockpit.=0A=0AI'm in a little bit of trouble if I have to read the airport =0Ainfo or radio frequencies in tiny print on the chart or if I=0Aneed to r ead the tenths and hundredths of tach time in the little=0Awindow on the ta ch but, oddly enough, I have no trouble dialing=0Ain the altimeter reading (barometric pressure) in the Kollsman=0Awindow.- I can read every gauge o n the panel and everything in=0Athe panel of 41CC is a dial instrument, set in the stock=0Aconfiguration per plans, and with the green-yellow-red rang es=0Amarked on the gauges.- Even a child can tell if everything is=0Ain t he green and that's all you need to see in flight. When=0Ayou're flying a P iet, the first one or two digits on the right=0Aof any gauge readout don't interest you anyway ;o)=0A=0ADon't over-think this stuff.- If you sit in the shop and worry=0Aabout what-ifs, you'll worry yourself silly and you'll never=0Afinish the airplane.- I am also a scuba diver and I tend to use =0Athe same philosophy in my dive gear... simple and lean.- I=0Ahave to l augh as I watch gadget freaks waddle off with things=0Ahanging from clips a nd lanyards all over their suits and BCs,=0Aand with plotters and aids and gizmos on every D-ring and strap...=0Aand they get so consumed with what mi ght happen that they never=0Aenjoy the dive.- Me, I fly the airplane and just check the=0Agauges to confirm what the airplane and engine are telling me.=0AThe Piet talks real pretty and sweet, and only an occasional=0Aglanc e at the gauges is needed to confirm what the airplane=0Atells you.=0A=0AI never thought I'd say this since I'm an engineer and a=0Adetailer, CAD desi gner and an experimenter, but the Piet design=0Ais well proven for over 80 years now, so I'm going to join the=0Achorus and here goes: "build it to th e plans and you'll do=0Ajust fine!"=0A=0AAny changes you want to make, you can make after you fly off=0Athose test hours or after you start your NEXT Piet and are=0Aenjoying flying your first one!!!!- Yes, there are repeat =0Aoffenders on this list... I already have a set of landing gear=0Aand a C orvair engine and prop for my next Air Camper.=0A=0AOscar Zuniga=0AAir Camp er NX41CC=0ASan Antonio, TX=0Amailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com=0Awebsite at ht ======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jim Quinn" <quinnj(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Long fuselage dimensions
Date: Jul 01, 2009
I'm building the longer fuselage and once again having trouble reading the top and bottom portion of the plans. Does anybody have a clearer drawing of the bracing and/or dimensions for joining the two sides of the fuselage? Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Looking for someone.
Pieters, Found a pic of a Piet which is exactly as I want to create. I have no idea as to who the owner or builder may be. Would the real builder stand up and shout. Blue fuse w/ light wing, cream or yellow. Cont Engine with white valve covers and bleached straight, Aeronca style, stacks, split gear with bunge e close to fuse bottom and wire spoked wheels. On the aft side of the fuse is a decal with ARC inside a circle. Will someone help me identify this plane so I may contact the owner-builder. Thank you Corky in extremely hot Louisiana **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Fuse. longerons bending
Thanks all for the replies. I am glad to hear no one has had any real issue s with the longerons flexing after removal from the jig. I guess the length and the lower bend is such that there is minimal stress on the upper longe rons once everything is tied together. - I am not quite there yet, but I have the last of my wing plywood on it's wa y as well as the longerons. I should be wrapping up the last wing and getti ng started on the fuse. in another month or so. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Re: Looking for someone.
Sure, it's a real beauty. Don't have a clue as to how I got the pic **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Plywoods
Pieters, About 1/8 and 1/16 plywood. found a source of OKUME plywood. There are two grades ( and prices) for the 1/8th. European $51.20 a sheet 4x8, Asian $26.00. For 1/16th it's $36.80 for a 4x8 sheet. 1/4 in 4x8 sheet $53.60 Have anyone of you used this type wood or know of it's use in our airplane building? The broker did mention how light this wood is. Compared to Wicks prices, seems unreal Shall we have some Piet gab on this subject? Corky **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Re: Looking for someone.
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
That would be Walt Evans: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/new_page_58.htm. I'm pretty sure Walt's on this list..... Ryan On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:39 AM, wrote: > Sure, it's a real beauty. Don't have a clue as to how I got the pic > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Looking for someone.
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Corky, I believe that might be Walt Evan's Piet. He's on the list so should chime in. Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 1 July 2009 11:40 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Sure, it's a real beauty. Don't have a clue as to how I got the pic _____ Dell p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0> Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jared Yates" <junk(at)jaredyates.com>
Subject: Looking for someone.
Date: Jul 01, 2009
It wasn't by chance Dick Navratil's NX2RN, was it? http://jaredyates.com/pages/brodhead08/jy~DSC_6882.JPG The description seems similar except for the logo on the fuselage. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for someone. Pieters, Found a pic of a Piet which is exactly as I want to create. I have no idea as to who the owner or builder may be. Would the real builder stand up and shout. Blue fuse w/ light wing, cream or yellow. Cont Engine with white valve covers and bleached straight, Aeronca style, stacks, split gear with bungee close to fuse bottom and wire spoked wheels. On the aft side of the fuse is a decal with ARC inside a circle. Will someone help me identify this plane so I may contact the owner-builder. Thank you Corky in extremely hot Louisiana _____ Dell p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0> Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Plywoods
From: "899PM" <rockriverrifle(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Corky, My fuse sides are 1/8" OKUME. Worked great! -------- PAPA MIKE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250941#250941 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1214_121.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Plywoods
Corky, I recall someone on this board saying that mahogany ply is a little stronger for gussets than okume, but does not bend as easily. I know a Skybolt builder who started with 1.5mm mahogany for his wing LE (actually a D-truss) but had to switch to okume to get the bend he needed. I would think okume should work for 1/8" gussets and the like, providing more than enough strength vs. mahogany, but some experts should chime in. Someone who can tell you all you would want to know is Chris Boulter at Boulter Plywood. They are marine ply specialists, and handle a lot of related stuff, including several grades of okume. Take a look at their website-- www.boulterplywood.com.... I think his prices are higher on most than what you are quoting, but look under "specials" on his website: 1.5mm okume is $29 a sheet. They are outside Boston, so shipping dimensions and costs are both factors. I know they can ship whole sheets UPS when cut into either 2X8 ft. or 4X4 ft. Is your broker local to Shreveport, or where? Please tell me Dallas or Houston, better yet Austin. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Jul 1, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Pieters, About 1/8 and 1/16 plywood. found a source of OKUME plywood. There are two grades ( and prices) for the 1/8th. European $51.20 a sheet 4x8, Asian $26.00. For 1/16th it's $36.80 for a 4x8 sheet. 1/4 in 4x8 sheet $53.60 Have anyone of you used this type wood or know of it's use in our airplane building? The broker did mention how light this wood is. Compared to Wicks prices, seems unreal Shall we have some Piet gab on this subject? Corky Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: aluminum paint prep
Tim, the alumiprep and alodine are two different things,- The alumiprep i s an acid that etches the aluminum, leaves it sort of frosty in appearance, and prepares the aluminum for the alodine.- The alodine is a chemical co nversion coating which prevents corrosion, and leaves the aluminum with a g old tint (1201 leves the gold tint and the liquid is gold colored).- The 1100, or 1101 I believe is the one that does not tint the aluminum, however it is harder to tell when the part has been soaked enough.- And one othe r tip for alodine application to big parts such as cowlings, large sheets e tc, is to spray the alodine on the part with a squirt bottle, and then cove r the part in clean (non contaminated) rags and soak the rags with alodine. - This keeps the part in contact with the alodine, and keeps the alodine from running off the part.- Let soak untill you get a nice light bronze c olor and then rinse with water and let air dry.- On a safety note, wear non permiable gloves when using either, the acid will burn skin, and the a lodine has Chromium in it, not good for the human body, And bad for ground water as well. - Hope this helps, and always just follow the directions on the bottle, Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
OK, i have been a lurker on here for quite some time, allot of great information! I have been on an engine search for the last year, finally found one that seems to be a great fit. I personally wanted to stay with the nostalgic look of the inline liquid cooled 4 cylinder, vs. the typical boxer aircraft/corvair engine. Over the past couple of months i have been converting my new engine for a dyno test to see if my calculations are correct, i attached a dyno sheet showing the result as well as some you tube clips. The engine is a Mitsubishi 2.6 liter 4G54, widely used in forklifts, i chose this engine because of it low operating rpm and high torque. The engine weighs in at 244 lbs as shown. The engine in he test has thousands of hours on it, now it is time to rebuild it and i should get another 5-10 hp. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmx2ERh7LxA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCr_8nDox8Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zMg6EWKZos Fuse and emp done One wing started Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250951#250951 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
Curious, you say that engine is widely used on forklifts. I know nothing about these engines, so I ask, is it propane fueled? Diesel? I believe diesel engines produce some good torque. Very interesting choice, I hope you will continue to post here with updates...love to hear/see how it works out! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Found My Engine!!
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Hey, Topgun- that's a nifty setup. There should be plenty of those engines out there. A quick search on Wikipedia (Mitsubishi 4G54) shows an extensive list of foreign and domestic autos that the engine showed up in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Astron_engine Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC air cooled and proud of it ;o) San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
The engine was running on propane when i took it out......i made the intake manifold and adapted an aircraft carb and for the dyno test, i used 100ll av gas. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250961#250961 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Most of the auto versions had a counter balance shaft which i didn't want cause of the added weight. Also, in the auto version the heads had some extra porting for emissions which is not desirable for this application. The forklift engine is absent of most of these items. taildrags(at)hotmail.com wrote: > Hey, Topgun- that's a nifty setup. There should be > plenty of those engines out there. A quick search on > Wikipedia (Mitsubishi 4G54) shows an extensive list of > foreign and domestic autos that the engine showed up > in. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Astron_engine > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > air cooled and proud of it ;o) > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250964#250964 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Re: Plywoods
Port Townsend, Washington **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops =93 Deal s starting at ir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0 ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
here are some pics Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250977#250977 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1224_114.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
i have to try and figure out how to get my pictures smaller. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250978#250978 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuselage length
From: "Will42" <will(at)cctc.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Can someone explain to me how making the fuselage longer compensates for a lighter engine. A lighter engine moves the CG rearward; lengthening the fuselage also moves the CG rearward. How does this correlate? I can understand moving the wing back as this would move the CG forward ( I think?) but a longer fuselage seems a move in the wrong direction. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250985#250985 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Hmmm... moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well. Perhaps you mean lengthening the engine mount will compensate for a light engine, or lengthening the front of the fuse (?), but if you are light up front, a longer tail probably isn't going to help. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250988#250988 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
From: Ameet Savant <ameetsavant(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
Will, The way I've thought about it is a lighter engine needs to have a longer nose. Effectively, increasing the distance between the wing (where cg should fall) and the engine. However, you can't just increase the nose and call it a day because your tail then may not have enough moment left to balance the wing in straight and level flight. To compensate for that you typically add some length between the wing and the tail. I've don't own the plans (yet) nor have I seen where the additional bays are added, but I bet there are two bays added- one in front of the wing and the other after it. This is my understanding from a design perspective, I am not sure if this is correct, but it makes sense to me. The ultimate effect is: 1) a lengthening of the fuselage and 2) moving of the wing behind from where it was, but nothing changes from a builder's point of view as the bay the wing attached to is unmodified. Regards, Ameet Savant Omaha, NE --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Will42 wrote: > Can someone explain to me how making the fuselage longer > compensates for a lighter engine. > > Will ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: "Will42" <will(at)cctc.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
"moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving the wing. My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter engines ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
The long fuselage is more tail heavy (everything else being equal). Works great with the Corvair engine and its electrical system. And you are correct, tilting the cabanes back moves the fuselage forward, not the wings back and therefore the CG forward. rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Will42 wrote: > > Can someone explain to me how making the fuselage longer compensates for a > lighter engine. A lighter engine moves the CG rearward; lengthening the > fuselage also moves the CG rearward. How does this correlate? I can > understand moving the wing back as this would move the CG forward ( I > think?) but a longer fuselage seems a move in the wrong direction. > > Will > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250985#250985 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
Date: Jul 01, 2009
again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of lift around, not the CG. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Will42<mailto:will(at)cctc.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length > "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving the wing. My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter engines ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 .matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://www.matronics.com/contribution on> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
Date: Jul 01, 2009
What kind of horsepower, at what RPM were you getting? Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOPGUN Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Found My Engine!! The engine was running on propane when i took it out......i made the intake manifold and adapted an aircraft carb and for the dyno test, i used 100ll av gas. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250961#250961 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
Date: Jul 01, 2009
The center of gravity of the entire airplane needs to be somewhere between about 15% and 33% of the way between the leading edge and trailing edge of the wing, in order for the plane to have sufficient stability. If the CG is forward of that range, the tail has insufficent force to be able to raise the nose to a positive angle of attack and no lift can be generated. If the CG is aft of that range, the plane will have "divergent stability" and will be uncontrollable. If the CG is too far aft, you can move it forward by moving something heavy (say, the engine, for example) further forward. Did you ever sit on a seesaw as a kid? If there was a fat kid sitting on the other end, you were left in the air, with your feet dangling helplessly. If you could only move a bit further away from the fulcrum, you could balance his mass. Take my word for it - one way to balance a tail-heavy Pietenpol with a light engine is to make the engine mount longer (within limits - too long and you start having directional stability issues, requiring a larger vertical tail). Far easier is to shift the wing aft. Even though moving the wing aft tends to move the CG aft as well (just slightly, due to the mass of the wing which has moved aft) it moves the acceptable CG range aft and allows the CG to fall within the acceptable range. Very few airplane designs can be modified in this way - it is one of the great advantages of the Pietenpol design. The GN-1 cannot be shifted like the Pietenpol can - there your only choice is to move the engine, add ballast or lose weight yourself. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Will42 Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving the wing. My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter engines ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: "Will42" <will(at)cctc.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
[quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of lift around, not the CG. Gene > --- Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG as a result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, look at a weight and balance work sheet to confirm. And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward as can be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, however none of this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for the "lighter" engined Piets. It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a reasonable solution to an over-weight pilot. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251025#251025 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Well, there is not necessarily a need for the longer fuselage for lighter engined Piets. There are Piets flying just fine with fuselages built to the '34 plans length and lighter Continental engines. And that statement got me to thinkin'....I couldn't recall where Bernard wrote that you should use the longer fuselage with lighter engines. Yes, it does mention that on the family website where the supplemental plans pack is sold. But a look at the plans sheet with the long fuselage drawing shows no mention that this fuselage is intended for use with lighter engines. And in fact, a flip through the builder's manual text reveals that the lengthening of the fuselage to the "long" length was a modification made to an airframe that was built purposely for testing with the Corvair engine. No mention is made of the fuselage being lengthened to accomadate Continental or similar lighter engines. Either way, it has been shown that you can use either fuselage length. The longer fuselage will weigh a little more than a similarly built short fuselage, but (in my opinion) it feels less cramped due to the length added in the cockpit. Ryan On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Will42 wrote: > > [quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be > a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of > lift around, not the CG. > > Gene > > > --- > > > Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG as a > result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, look at a weight > and balance work sheet to confirm. > > And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward as can > be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, however none of > this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for the "lighter" engined > Piets. > > It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a > different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a reasonable > solution to an over-weight pilot. > > Will > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 2009
"Anyone can provide accuracy" ------Original Message------ From: Will42 Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com ReplyTo: Pietenpol builders Board Sent: Jul 1, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length [quote="generambo(at)msn.com"] again, to quote Waldo, "I don't want to be a stickler for accuracy" but moving the wing around is moving the center of lift around, not the CG. Gene > --- Moving the wing does move the center of lift; it also moves the CG as a result of the new "moment" of the wing itself. If in doubt, look at a weight and balance work sheet to confirm. And certainly, moving a lighter engine forward moves the CG forward as can be noted by the extremely long noses on turbine conversions, however none of this addresses the reason for longer fuselages for the "lighter" engined Piets. It seems the extended engine mount would be a simpler answer than a different fuselage length; certainly moving the wing aft seems a reasonable solution to an over-weight pilot. Will Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251025#251025 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 2009
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Date: Jul 01, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuse. longerons bending
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I glued all gussets before joining the sides but I did leave off the plywood sides until the entire fuselage was nearly complete including seats and all controls. Made it much easier to get to everything. rick On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:29 PM, wrote: > Did mine without the gussets in place and it worked out great. I also > read of a similar account with gussets in place and the guy fount it > impossible to get the bend and eventually ended up having some wood relieve > the stress by breaking. I guess its a matter of who's account one is willing > to follow and which suggestions to go > > I have had no problems out of mine and did not have to stretch or stress > the gussets to bend so they now act as a force that holds the bend and > resists the tendency for the bent wood to return to shape. > > John > > ------------------------------ > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or54393/aol?redir > http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>See > yours in just 2 easy steps!* > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
I built the long Piet with a Funk powered engine ( Ford B block ) the engine weight was 257 Lbs. The radiator under the cowl. It flys all day at 87 MPH with 2 aboard. The Piet I have now is the short version with a Funk engine, ( upside down ) and the radiator in the standard position. It would fly 10 MPH slower with 2 aboard, After increasing the HP to over 80 I can now fly at 87 MPH, Take your pick, longer , gives pilot more leg room. Both flys great. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251057#251057 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N." <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: OSH
Date: Jul 01, 2009
I waited too long and forgot about the camping reservations thru Bill Rewey. Is anyone else planning on pre reserving space for camping at OSH? Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 01, 2009
if you look at the chart above you can see the tq and hp. i inserted an excel file, but it bunched all the numbers together......... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251064#251064 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Roman Bukolt <conceptmodels(at)tds.net>
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Doesn't moving the wing back move the CG forward relative to the leading edge? Moving the wing back creates a longer nose moment. On Jul 1, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Jack Phillips wrote: > > > > The center of gravity of the entire airplane needs to be somewhere > between > about 15% and 33% of the way between the leading edge and trailing > edge of > the wing, in order for the plane to have sufficient stability. If > the CG is > forward of that range, the tail has insufficent force to be able to > raise > the nose to a positive angle of attack and no lift can be > generated. If the > CG is aft of that range, the plane will have "divergent stability" > and will > be uncontrollable. > > If the CG is too far aft, you can move it forward by moving > something heavy > (say, the engine, for example) further forward. > > Did you ever sit on a seesaw as a kid? If there was a fat kid > sitting on > the other end, you were left in the air, with your feet dangling > helplessly. > If you could only move a bit further away from the fulcrum, you could > balance his mass. > > Take my word for it - one way to balance a tail-heavy Pietenpol with > a light > engine is to make the engine mount longer (within limits - too long > and you > start having directional stability issues, requiring a larger vertical > tail). Far easier is to shift the wing aft. Even though moving the > wing > aft tends to move the CG aft as well (just slightly, due to the mass > of the > wing which has moved aft) it moves the acceptable CG range aft and > allows > the CG to fall within the acceptable range. Very few airplane > designs can > be modified in this way - it is one of the great advantages of the > Pietenpol > design. The GN-1 cannot be shifted like the Pietenpol can - there > your only > choice is to move the engine, add ballast or lose weight yourself. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Will42 > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:53 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage length > > > "moving the wing back would most certainly move the CG back as well" > > Sorry, I wrote exactly opposite from what I was thinking on moving > the wing. > > > My point is/was, the longer fuselage is recommended for the lighter > engines > ( Continental; Corvair) and I can't see how this is correct. > > Will > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=250992#250992 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 2009
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From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: Brodhead from Minneapolis area?
Date: Jul 01, 2009
Anyone interested in flying down to Brodhead from MPLS area? I have plane and tentatively plan to fly down Friday and return home Saturday. Would be interested in someone who'd be willing to pitch in for fuel=2C time... Tom B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: seeing the instruments
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Good message Oscar, I have to agree with you and Jack and Bill and all the others that have commented on modifications to the Piet. I still think that maybe the best modification to a Piet might be to add a foot length to each wing to help offset Jack's 96 degree weather. Of course that then means checking wing s par strength, etc. My Piet is being built to the plans (long fuselage) with a Corvair engine and since I am only 5 feet 6 inches and a stout 185 I think I should be okay. By the way I have the landing gear legs on it now but have to finish shock struts before I can remove the steel bar between them. Looking forward to seeing all the Piets at Brodhead this year. Jim B. On Jun 30, 2009, taildrags(at)hotmail.com wrote: Jim; I worried about seeing the instruments. I need "cheaters" or bifocals to see things up close and the restrictions on my airman medical say I need to have corrective lenses when I fly. I wear contact lenses for distant vision but for near vision I always carry reading glasses with me when I fly but I've never had occasion to take them out because I can always see what needs to be seen without them. I have NO digital displays or instruments but if I did, I might need those readers to see some of the text. With analog gauges, a quick glance shows me what I need to know without hesitating or guessing. Can you tell that I'm a "steam gauge" type of guy? ;o) When I fly X-C, I fly with a kneeboard and a folded sectional, with my route of flight laid out and highlighted. I have not had any problem seeing my next checkpoint on the chart, down on my knee in the cockpit. I'm in a little bit of trouble if I have to read the airport info or radio frequencies in tiny print on the chart or if I need to read the tenths and hundredths of tach time in the little window on the tach but, oddly enough, I have no trouble dialing in the altimeter reading (barometric pressure) in the Kollsman window. I can read every gauge on the panel and everything in the panel of 41CC is a dial instrument, set in the stock configuration per plans, and with the green-yellow-red ranges marked on the gauges. Even a child can tell if everything is in the green and that's all you need to see in flight. When you're flying a Piet, the first one or two digits on the right of any gauge readout don't interest you anyway ;o) Don't over-think this stuff. If you sit in the shop and worry about what-ifs, you'll worry yourself silly and you'll never finish the airplane. I am also a scuba diver and I tend to use the same philosophy in my dive gear... simple and lean. I have to laugh as I watch gadget freaks waddle off with things hanging from clips and lanyards all over their suits and BCs, and with plotters and aids and gizmos on every D-ring and strap... and they get so consumed with what might happen that they never enjoy the dive. Me, I fly the airplane and just check the gauges to confirm what the airplane and engine are telling me. The Piet talks real pretty and sweet, and only an occasional glance at the gauges is needed to confirm what the airplane tells you. I never thought I'd say this since I'm an engineer and a detailer, CAD designer and an experimenter, but the Piet design is well proven for over 80 years now, so I'm going to join the chorus and here goes: "build it to the plans and you'll do just fine!" Any changes you want to make, you can make after you fly off those test hours or after you start your NEXT Piet and are enjoying flying your first one!!!! Yes, there are repeat offenders on this list... I already have a set of landing gear and a Corvair engine and prop for my next Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: seeing the instruments
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Hi again Oscar; Forgot to comment on seeing the instruments. I don't need glasses for distance but do need reading glasses for seeing up close. Thats why I have slanted my instrument panel so it is 1 inch back at the top which angle helps me see it a little better. Probably the same effect leaning back the rear seat would have. Jim On Jun 30, 2009, taildrags(at)hotmail.com wrote: Jim; I worried about seeing the instruments. I need "cheaters" or bifocals to see things up close and the restrictions on my airman medical say I need to have corrective lenses when I fly. I wear contact lenses for distant vision but for near vision I always carry reading glasses with me when I fly but I've never had occasion to take them out because I can always see what needs to be seen without them. I have NO digital displays or instruments but if I did, I might need those readers to see some of the text. With analog gauges, a quick glance shows me what I need to know without hesitating or guessing. Can you tell that I'm a "steam gauge" type of guy? ;o) When I fly X-C, I fly with a kneeboard and a folded sectional, with my route of flight laid out and highlighted. I have not had any problem seeing my next checkpoint on the chart, down on my knee in the cockpit. I'm in a little bit of trouble if I have to read the airport info or radio frequencies in tiny print on the chart or if I need to read the tenths and hundredths of tach time in the little window on the tach but, oddly enough, I have no trouble dialing in the altimeter reading (barometric pressure) in the Kollsman window. I can read every gauge on the panel and everything in the panel of 41CC is a dial instrument, set in the stock configuration per plans, and with the green-yellow-red ranges marked on the gauges. Even a child can tell if everything is in the green and that's all you need to see in flight. When you're flying a Piet, the first one or two digits on the right of any gauge readout don't interest you anyway ;o) Don't over-think this stuff. If you sit in the shop and worry about what-ifs, you'll worry yourself silly and you'll never finish the airplane. I am also a scuba diver and I tend to use the same philosophy in my dive gear... simple and lean. I have to laugh as I watch gadget freaks waddle off with things hanging from clips and lanyards all over their suits and BCs, and with plotters and aids and gizmos on every D-ring and strap... and they get so consumed with what might happen that they never enjoy the dive. Me, I fly the airplane and just check the gauges to confirm what the airplane and engine are telling me. The Piet talks real pretty and sweet, and only an occasional glance at the gauges is needed to confirm what the airplane tells you. I never thought I'd say this since I'm an engineer and a detailer, CAD designer and an experimenter, but the Piet design is well proven for over 80 years now, so I'm going to join the chorus and here goes: "build it to the plans and you'll do just fine!" Any changes you want to make, you can make after you fly off those test hours or after you start your NEXT Piet and are enjoying flying your first one!!!! Yes, there are repeat offenders on this list... I already have a set of landing gear and a Corvair engine and prop for my next Air Camper. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2009
From: Mike Tunnicliffe <zk-owl(at)CLEAR.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: Plywoods
Hi, I am using the 1.5 mm okume for sheeting the leading edge of the wing, I feel it is too weak for any other part of a pietenpol. Okume ply seems to be used for the structure of several French designs that require light weight, but of course they would be engineered to take account of the lower strength of the ply. It is soft and easily dented. Regards Mike T. ps. I'm assembling the wooden undercart and would like to fit brakes, the problem is stopping the axle turning whilst not restricting the axle movement, I have seen the peg and socket idea but wondered if there were any alternatives that someone may have come up with? ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:51 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Pieters, About 1/8 and 1/16 plywood. found a source of OKUME plywood. There are two grades ( and prices) for the 1/8th. European $51.20 a sheet 4x8, Asian $26.00. For 1/16th it's $36.80 for a 4x8 sheet. 1/4 in 4x8 sheet $53.60 Have anyone of you used this type wood or know of it's use in our airplane building? The broker did mention how light this wood is. Compared to Wicks prices, seems unreal Shall we have some Piet gab on this subject? Corky ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops - Deals starting at $399 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Plywoods
Date: Jul 01, 2009
This cable holds the brake from rotating. I'm going to use this idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Tunnicliffe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Regards Mike T. ps. I'm assembling the wooden undercart and would like to fit brakes, the problem is stopping the axle turning whilst not restricting the axle movement, I have seen the peg and socket idea but wondered if there were any alternatives that someone may have come up with? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: tenpol-List:Preventing axle rotation Was:Plywoods
Date: Jul 02, 2009
Check out how John Dilatush prevented axle rotation on Mountain Piet. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/John%20Dilatush%27s%20Subaru-Powered% 20Pietenpol/DSC00049.JPG ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Tunnicliffe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywoods Hi, I am using the 1.5 mm okume for sheeting the leading edge of the wing, I feel it is too weak for any other part of a pietenpol. Okume ply seems to be used for the structure of several French designs that require light weight, but of course they would be engineered to take account of the lower strength of the ply. It is soft and easily dented. Regards Mike T. ps. I'm assembling the wooden undercart and would like to fit brakes, the problem is stopping the axle turning whilst not restricting the axle movement, I have seen the peg and socket idea but wondered if there were any alternatives that someone may have come up with? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 2009
Subject: Re: seeing the instruments
Jim, That slanted instrument panel idea is by far the best suggestion I've seen on this net in years. I guess the biggest shock or disappointment I had with 41CC was when I first climbed in the reat pit, sat there and saw how close everythig was to my big nose. As I flew it became more annoying. I thought, look at all that room ahead in the front pit. How could some of that space be transferred back here. I'm thinking hard on that subject now bef ore I begin my third Piet. Corky, always bringing up controversial thoughts in HOT, HOT Louisiana **************Dell Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops =93 Shop Now! =http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D1) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: seeing the instruments
Date: Jul 02, 2009
My solution to that was to put a few instruments in the front panel - compass, airspeed, altimeter and a slip indicator. Works great until I put a passenger in there - then at least they get to know how low we are and how slow we're going. You really don't look at the instruments very much - this is a "seat of the pants" airplane. This past spring, my pitot tube got clogged with pollen, which I didn't notice until I was climbing out after takeoff (apparently I don't refer to the airspeed indicator for rotation speed). Not a terribly big problem to fly the airplane with no airspeed indicator. There are many clues to speed, including the way the stick feels, the sound of the wind in the wires, etc. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seeing the instruments Jim, That slanted instrument panel idea is by far the best suggestion I've seen on this net in years. I guess the biggest shock or disappointment I had with 41CC was when I first climbed in the reat pit, sat there and saw how close everythig was to my big nose. As I flew it became more annoying. I thought, look at all that room ahead in the front pit. How could some of that space be transferred back here. I'm thinking hard on that subject now before I begin my third Piet. Corky, always bringing up controversial thoughts in HOT, HOT Louisiana _____ Dell p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D1> Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops - Shop Now! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: buick v8
Date: Jul 02, 2009
Hello all, For those who expressed interest in the aluminum buick v-8, I just hung up with Steve Cavanagh in Australia who actually built and flew one. He took it right out of the car without even a rebuild, the only mod was an enlarged sump. Kept the standard ignition and starter. Bolted a metal prop from an "aerobatic Cessna 150" right onto the crank. Says the thrust bearing is in the middle of the crank. Remembers max rpm as around 2800, and got 1,000meters climb. Had over 300 hrs when he sold it four years ago, he's now 89. Didn't have any trouble. Said it used about 7 gallons per hour and probably weighed 300 lbs. Had a 30 gallon tank to keep it fed. Said the Piet performed great with the heavy engine. Said he started with standard wings then build longer wings and said it "it didn't make a difference". Estimates 130hp at 2800 Sounds pretty interesting except for the fuel consumption! Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 02, 2009
Subject: Re: Fuselage length
How about "Stinkin Blackberry" **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 02, 2009
some smaller pics Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251143#251143 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1224_211.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0648_160.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Found My Engine!!
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Jul 02, 2009
some more Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=251144#251144 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1238_120.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1242_123.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1252_244.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1238_138.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1240_189.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg1238_175.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: seeing the instruments
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Thanks Corky, It does make it easier to see the instruments at a glance. Before I slanted the panel I had to move my head back to see them kinda like a chicken moves its head; gave me a kink in the neck. Its just an inch back at the top and does a lot more than you would think to improve the view. Jim On Jul 2, 2009, Isablcorky(at)aol.com wrote: Jim, That slanted instrument panel idea is by far the best suggestion I've seen on this net in years. I guess the biggest shock or disappointment I had with 41CC was when I first climbed in the reat pit, sat there and saw how close everythig was to my big nose. As I flew it became more annoying. I thought, look at all that room ahead in the front pit. How could some of that space be transferred back here. I'm thinking hard on that subject now before I begin my third Piet. Corky, always bringing up controversial thoughts in HOT, HOT Louisiana Dell Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops - Shop Now! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 02, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: seeing the instruments
Jim Boyer Santa Rosa, CA Pietenpol builder with Corvair Hi Jack, I remember seeing you last year at Brodhead and you are much taller than I am. I have to stretch to make 5' 6" and my problem will be seeing over the cowl to the front cockpit and nose of the Piet. I used to instruct in an Aeronca Champ and had one student about your height but he was quite heavy. It reminded me of Lindbergh flying the ocean; all I could see was to the sides and the guys back like a wall in front of me. A friend of mine had a Corben Baby Ace and let me fly it for a couple of weeks while he was out of town. Thats what made me want to build a Pietenpol; it was so much fun to fly that open cockpit airplane and it looks pretty much like a small Piet. I thought a Piet made more sense as I could take someone else with me to enjoy the flight too. Jim On Jul 2, 2009, pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net wrote: My solution to that was to put a few instruments in the front panel compass, airspeed, altimeter and a slip indicator. Works great until I put a passenger in there then at least they get to know how low we are and how slow were going. You really dont look at the instruments very much this is a seat of the pants airplane. This past spring, my pitot tube got clogged with pollen, which I didnt notice until I was climbing out after takeoff (apparently I dont refer to the airspeed indicator for rotation speed). Not a terribly big problem to fly the airplane with no airspeed indicator. There are many clues to speed, including the way the stick feels, the sound of the wind in the wires, etc. Jack Phillips NX899JP From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky(at)aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: seeing the instruments Jim, That slanted instrument panel idea is by far the best suggestion I've seen on this net in years. I guess the biggest shock or disappointment I had with 41CC was when I first climbed in the reat pit, sat there and saw how close everythig was to my big nose. As I flew it became more annoying. I thought, look at all that room ahead in the front pit. How could some of that space be transferred back here. I'm thinking hard on that subject now before I begin my third Piet. Corky, always bringing up controversial thoughts in HOT, HOT Louisiana Dell Summer Savings: Cool Deals on Popular Laptops - Shop Now! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution

June 24, 2009 - July 02, 2009

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-ht