Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-iq
December 15, 2009 - December 31, 2009
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-iq
December 15, 2009 - December 31, 2009
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277588#277588
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: der Faker Fokker
Date: Dec 15, 2009
Here is the video of the Flying Farmer show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2BPcurREpo
Towards the end at about 1:35 you can see what
I think is "der Faker Fokker" taxiing out. It
is apparently not the Lambert radial engined Piet
that flew for some years since the plane in the
YouTube video obviously has a flat engine in it.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: T-88
Date: Dec 15, 2009
I must have a death wish. I bought my T-88 over ten
years ago and it continues to produce fine results
for me. The clear component does tend to crystallize
in cold weather but returns to liquid state when
warmed. The easiest way to warm it is to put it in
the microwave oven for 10-15 seconds. If overwarmed,
it gets so thin that it's hard to measure so don't
overdo it with the heat.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2009
From: "wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com" <wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
Subject: Re: der Faker Fokker
Oscar,
That's the plane I was thinking of. I thought it was a Junior Ace, but
Gene Rambo remembers it being a hodge-podge of Aeronca parts. Either
way, it's a neat little plane.
Here's some info on the guy who flies it now, according to the Flying
Circus website: http://www.flyingcircusairshow.com/stars/Kevin_Pierce.html
Here's a pic of what looks like the same plane, but with different
landing gear and paint:
http://www.flyingcircusairshow.com/photo-04/fokker-lg.jpg
I still remember reading a web site that talked about buying that plane,
flying it to the midwest somewhere, restoring it, and then flying it
back to VA. I can't find the URL, though.
Maybe Gene has some more info into the history of this bird.
-Wayne
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
> Here is the video of the Flying Farmer show:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2BPcurREpo
>
> Towards the end at about 1:35 you can see what
> I think is "der Faker Fokker" taxiing out. It
> is apparently not the Lambert radial engined Piet
> that flew for some years since the plane in the
> YouTube video obviously has a flat engine in it.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 15, 2009
Subject: Re: T-88
From: Matt Redmond <mdredmond(at)gmail.com>
Yup, epoxy resin will eventually harden all by itself. The catalyst simply
speeds up the process.
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Pieti Lowell wrote:
> Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
>
> For those that have not seen the Technical Data specs on T-88 go to (
> www.systemthree.com ). It says that the shelf life is about one year. I
> had a partial left-over T-88 from November 2004 while working on my Riblitt
> 612 wing, I found that both containers were almost solid. I put them in a
> pot of hot water and soon they were very fluid. I mixed up a batch to try on
> a wood project, it is amazing how well it worked. I don't recommend using
> old T-88 on a Piet, but it sure works. The containers are stored in my
> basement at 65 Deg. F.
> Pieti Lowell
> PS: Got 30 Min, of Piet time last Sunday, with a warm tingle from the
> radiator in 25 Deg air, She never fails to bring back that old feeling.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277562#277562
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: T-88
Date: Dec 15, 2009
He must mean some other kind of resin... epoxy needs both parts to cure.
And it doesn't have a "catalyst."
David Paule
-----
Yup, epoxy resin will eventually harden all by itself. The catalyst
simply speeds up the process.
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Pieti Lowell
wrote:
For those that have not seen the Technical Data specs on T-88 go to
(www.systemthree.com ). It says that the shelf life is about one year. I
had a partial left-over T-88 from November 2004 while working on my
Riblitt 612 wing, I found that both containers were almost solid. I put
them in a pot of hot water and soon they were very fluid. I mixed up a
batch to try on a wood project, it is amazing how well it worked. I
don't recommend using old T-88 on a Piet, but it sure works. The
containers are stored in my basement at 65 Deg. F.
Pieti Lowell
PS: Got 30 Min, of Piet time last Sunday, with a warm tingle from
the radiator in 25 Deg air, She never fails to bring back that old
feeling.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277562#277562
ber is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
-= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
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s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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=============
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 106 Years ago today- Prelude to flight
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Telegram from Wilbur Wright to Bishop Wright on December 15th, 1903:
Misjudgment at start reduced flight one hundred twelve power and control
ample rudder only injured success assured keep quiet.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: clarification
From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Dec 16, 2009
I resemble those remarks... :)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277739#277739
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: 106 Years ago today- Prelude to flight
be vewy,vewy quiet,huh,huh,huh.Duh wabbit is wite dair,weddy to jump!=0Ado
not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Oscar Zunig
a =0ATo: Pietenpol List =0ASent: Wed, December 16, 2009 10:50:10 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: 10
6 Years ago today- Prelude to flight=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted
by: Oscar Zuniga =0A=0A=0AIf Wilbur asked that it b
e kept quiet, why are you=0Apublicizing it on the internet?- ;o)=0A=0Ado
not archive=0A=0AOscar Zuniga=0AAir Camper NX41CC=0ASan Antonio, TX=0Amailt
o: taildrags@hotmail.com=0Awebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ---
=========
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: A. Spruce and stainless hardware
Looking at the latest A.C. Spruce catalog, page 90. They have MS24694 screw
s rated at 125,000 PSI. Below that they have MS24694C. They claim these are
the same bolts as above, but in stainless. Should I assume they are also 1
25,000 PSI, or-are the stainless always rated lower? (because it is stain
less) Ideally, I would LIKE to use flat head screws,-counter-sunk, on the
metal fittings that hold the cables for the vert. and horiz. stabilizers.
I would also prefer stainless. Not clear if one or both of these ideas woul
d compromise the integrity of the tail.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have a friend
here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed. He says
that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the results. Cheers,
Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Suitable tail wheel and leaf springs
While working on tail issues, I would also like to consider the tail wheel
and springs. It appears that A.C. Spruce has a limited selection of tail wh
eel assemblies. Anyone recommend any from the catalog or from another sourc
e? Same with the leaf springs, please.- I would hope the 450 lb rating th
at the catalog shows is sufficient.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Date: Dec 16, 2009
That would be good...
Jack
DSM
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:22 PM, airlion wrote:
> Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I
> have a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work
> for Lockheed. He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I
> will let ya'll know the results. Cheers, Gardiner
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
> To: Gardiner Mason
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
> Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: A. Spruce and stainless hardware
Date: Dec 16, 2009
I haven't checked for that specific part number, but generally speaking,
there will be different suffix letters to describe the different
materials. You'd need to look at that actual specification to see what
it says.
If all you know is that it's stainless, be advised that there's a lot of
stainless out there that's 300 series annealed, with about a 27 to 35
ksi yield and 70 to 80 ksi ultimate strength. Be very cautious.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 4:15 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A. Spruce and stainless hardware
Looking at the latest A.C. Spruce catalog, page 90. They have
MS24694 screws rated at 125,000 PSI. Below that they have MS24694C. They
claim these are the same bolts as above, but in stainless. Should I
assume they are also 125,000 PSI, or are the stainless always rated
lower? (because it is stainless) Ideally, I would LIKE to use flat head
screws, counter-sunk, on the metal fittings that hold the cables for the
vert. and horiz. stabilizers. I would also prefer stainless. Not clear
if one or both of these ideas would compromise the integrity of the
tail.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Dec 16, 2009
Subject: Re: clarification
Kevin, I have seen plenty of photos of your plane, in detail. SGT Richards showed
them to me. It is even prettier in detail. If you are headed to Camp Mabry
drop me a line and I will by lunch.
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:58
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: clarification
>
> I resemble those remarks... :)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277739#277739
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Date: Dec 16, 2009
Results, heck - post the entire analysis!
Thanks!
David Paule
P.S. Advise him to reference ANC-18. It's available on the West Coast
Piet site.
----- Original Message -----
From: airlion
To: pietenpol
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 4:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I
have a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for
Lockheed. He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let
ya'll know the results. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
To: Gardiner Mason
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A. Spruce and stainless hardware
I am not 100% sure but I believe standard AN steel bolts are stronger than
stainless bolts.- Even the big jets use cad plated bolts in high stress l
ocations, eng mount bolts etc.- Stainless is better suited for high heat,
or more corrosive enviroments like wheel wells etc.- Also plain steel bo
lts will bend a little before breaking, and stainless seem to snap off and
break.- Stainless bolts are also a huge pain in the a%$ to drill out if y
ou ever break them or strip them out.-
-
Shad=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 16, 2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
I think we would all like to see it
John
In a message dated 12/16/2009 9:06:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dpaule(at)frii.com writes:
Results, heck - post the entire analysis!
Thanks!
David Paule
P.S. Advise him to reference ANC-18. It's available on the West Coast Piet
site.
----- Original Message -----
From: _airlion_ (mailto:airlion(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 4:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have a
friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed.
He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the
results. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <_susangmason(at)gmail.com_ (mailto:susangmason(at)gmail.com) >
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 16, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Gardiner,
Great looking plane! I can see from the way that you're standing that
you're having to hold it down. It's ready to leap into the sky!
Jeff
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: rides and non riders cars and airplanes
From: "regchief" <kbosley(at)comcast.net>
Date: Dec 16, 2009
Wait a minute Rick. If you jump out of a Piet at 5000 MSL in Castle rock, arn't
you technically 2000 ft underground. Giggles, at least down here in Pueblo you
might still have a little altitude,, not much though!!
Kelly 8)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277846#277846
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 106 years ago today- First Flight
Date: Dec 17, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Vertical compass
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Does anyone have a vertical compass installed in their panel? Wondering
about interference of nearby instruments, cables, etc. I guess the same
question could be asked for a standard compass. I would rather mount the
compass in the panel rather than outside the cockpit.
Thanks,
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Vertical compass
Date: Dec 17, 2009
I've got one in my RV-4. I really like it - it is damped much more than a
"whisky" compass, and acts much more like a directional gyro. Still has the
normal compass errors, but doesn't bounce around much.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vertical compass
Does anyone have a vertical compass installed in their panel? Wondering
about interference of nearby instruments, cables, etc. I guess the same
question could be asked for a standard compass. I would rather mount the
compass in the panel rather than outside the cockpit.
Thanks,
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Vertical compass
Date: Dec 17, 2009
One thing to be careful of when swinging your compass (regardless of
which
type of magnetic compass) ' be sure your stick is in the level flight
position, not full forward as it normally is on the ground. The steel
in
that stick makes a significant difference (as much as 30=B0) on your
indicated
compass heading, so put it where it will be when you are in level
flight.
Otherwise you might miss Brodhead altogether. Also be sure your
avionics
(if any) are on. Just for fun, see how much the compass changes when
you
hit the transmit button on your radio (either panel mount or handheld).
Just
some stuff to think about.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Vertical compass
I=92ve got one in my RV-4. I really like it ' it is damped much more
than a
=93whisky=94 compass, and acts much more like a directional gyro. Still
has the
normal compass errors, but doesn=92t bounce around much.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vertical compass
Does anyone have a vertical compass installed in their panel? Wondering
about interference of nearby instruments, cables, etc. I guess the same
question could be asked for a standard compass. I would rather mount
the
compass in the panel rather than outside the cockpit.
Thanks,
Jack
DSM
www.aeroelectric.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.aeroelectric.com> www.aeroelectric.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Elevator Control Stops?
I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put a
control stop on the elevators?
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: Re: Elevator Control Stops?
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Here's one:
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/elevator_stop_strap_4130_steel_full_down.jpg
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/elevator_stop_strap_full_up.jpg
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/Piet_elevator_strap_stop_piece.jpg
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/Piet_elevator_travel_sketch.jpg
Ryan
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Ben Charvet wrote:
>
> I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
> airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put a
> control stop on the elevators?
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Control Stops?
Ben:
I drew this quickly from memory so some of the details will not be right
but this is how Ken Perkins makes up his control sticks which include
aileron stops on the front stick only. If you do not have a stick in the
passenger compartment I don't see why this could not be done on the
pilot's stick as well.
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
N328X
>>> Ben Charvet 12/17/2009 7:55 AM >>>
I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put a
control stop on the elevators?
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Stress Test?????
Wait till you make the first test flight........that's your real stress
test, and deodorant test, etc, etc
Lookin good - Keep us posted
Barry Davis
Big Piet
NX973BP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 6:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have a
friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed.
He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the
results. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
From: Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Bolts and stress anal-isis
OK, now I'm really scared. I was going to fly today to commemorate the Wrig
ht brothers first (?) flight but after reading the posts, I'm going to wait
..
-
I don't remember using stainless steel hardware anywhere but some might hav
e snuck in somewhere and something might just snap off at any second and I'
d be a smoking crater. Scarey thought! And I'm probably going to have to aw
ait the scientific stress anal-isis of the airframe to even begin to feel s
afe and comfortable again. How in the world have I lived so long without al
l this testing? It'll give me the willies every time I fly now. Thanks for
ruining my day!
-
Larry
-
ps. I have decided that along with the nosewheel, I'm going to retain the e
ntire engine mount and the 0-290 that came with it. Might need a canopy wit
h all that power on tap!=0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Elevator Control Stops?
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Ben:
Here is what I did. On the 3 station forward of the rudder post I located
some nylon plates as fairleads. The elevator cables pass through these
fairleads. On all four elevator cables I swaged onto the cables nicopress
stops on the forward side. I will then take a section of dowel rod of the
proper length, drill it lengthwise and split it in half. The dowel rod
sections will then be placed around the elevator cables, between the
fairleads and the stops. The dowel rods will be held back together with
safety wire around each end. The dowel rods/nicopress stop will then butt
against the fairlead at the max deflection of the elevator. The position of
the stop is adjustable by the length of the dowel and the location of the
nicopress stop. This type of stop is shown in one of Tony Bingelis' books.
I have attached a photo that shows what I am talking about. Ignore the
rudder cables with the sharp bend at the fairleads. Its just twine and not
attached to anything at the forward end.
Rick Schreiber
> [Original Message]
> From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
> To: Pietenpol list
> Date: 12/17/2009 7:58:27 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Control Stops?
>
>
> I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
> airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put a
> control stop on the elevators?
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Control Stops?
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Pretty slick, but where do you get that left-hand thread for that
right-hand stop?
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM STINEMETZE
To: Pietenpol list
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Control Stops?
Ben:
I drew this quickly from memory so some of the details will not be
right but this is how Ken Perkins makes up his control sticks which
include aileron stops on the front stick only. If you do not have a
stick in the passenger compartment I don't see why this could not be
done on the pilot's stick as well.
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
N328X
>>> Ben Charvet 12/17/2009 7:55 AM >>>
I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put
a
control stop on the elevators?
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: another kool one
Every once in a while a fried of mine on the West Coast sends me an
aviation tidbit worthy of sharing, to that end I offer you this site:
_https://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Zeppelin/Zeppelin.html_
(https://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Zeppelin/Zeppelin.html)
Enjoy
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical compass
Date: Dec 17, 2009
And make sure you don't keep any Duracell batteries within about three
feet of the compass. Haven't tried other types, but the Duracell's are
quite magnetic. GPS, radio, etc....
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 6:08 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Vertical compass
One thing to be careful of when swinging your compass (regardless of
which type of magnetic compass) - be sure your stick is in the level
flight position, not full forward as it normally is on the ground. The
steel in that stick makes a significant difference (as much as 30=B0) on
your indicated compass heading, so put it where it will be when you are
in level flight. Otherwise you might miss Brodhead altogether. Also be
sure your avionics (if any) are on. Just for fun, see how much the
compass changes when you hit the transmit button on your radio (either
panel mount or handheld). Just some stuff to think about.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:56 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Vertical compass
I've got one in my RV-4. I really like it - it is damped much more
than a "whisky" compass, and acts much more like a directional gyro.
Still has the normal compass errors, but doesn't bounce around much.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:21 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vertical compass
Does anyone have a vertical compass installed in their panel?
Wondering about interference of nearby instruments, cables, etc. I
guess the same question could be asked for a standard compass. I would
rather mount the compass in the panel rather than outside the cockpit.
Thanks,
Jack
DSM
www.aeroelectric.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contrib
ution
www.aeroelectric.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contrib
ution
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator Control Stops?
Picky, picky, and like picky - OK! I buy all my AN hardware cheap from
some furrin speakin' guy.
>>> "David Paule" 12/17/2009 9:37 AM >>>
Pretty slick, but where do you get that left-hand thread for that
right-hand stop?
David Paule
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: simple elevator control stop setup
Stolen idea directly from Frank S. and Frank M. Pavliga's Sky Gypsy Pieten
pol. Works like a charm.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Control Stops?
Date: Dec 17, 2009
41CC has exactly the same elevator control stop setup
as that picture on Westcoastpiet (slotted strap). Works
great.
And as for the whiskey compass, 41CC has the compass
right in the front center of the panel and as I've noted
on this list before, moving the stick forward will
swing the compass. I'm too lazy to demagnetize the
stick, make a new one out of ash or aluminum, or make
any other changes. I've never gotten lost flying the
compass because I only glance at it occasionally as it
nods and bobs along. It would take 30 minutes of flying
in the wrong direction to get lost in a Piet anyway
(unless you fly over those forested mountains like Jack
and some of you other folks).
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: Re: Elevator Control Stops?
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Maybe I'm missing something; it would appear that the position is
adjustable.....until you cover the airplane. And if they are no longer
accessible once covered, then what's the advantage of them being adjustable?
Again, maybe I'm just not seeing something in the picture.
I would think with Mike's method, the Ken Perkins method that Tom sketched,
or something equivalent you would have more accessible stops located in the
cockpit areas....both for later adjustment if needed and for ease of
inspection....
Ryan
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Richard Schreiber wrote:
> Ben:
> Here is what I did. On the 3 station forward of the rudder post I located
> some nylon plates as fairleads. The elevator cables pass through these
> fairleads. On all four elevator cables I swaged onto the cables nicopress
> stops on the forward side. I will then take a section of dowel rod of the
> proper length, drill it lengthwise and split it in half. The dowel rod
> sections will then be placed around the elevator cables, between the
> fairleads and the stops. The dowel rods will be held back together with
> safety wire around each end. The dowel rods/nicopress stop will then butt
> against the fairlead at the max deflection of the elevator. The position of
> the stop is adjustable by the length of the dowel and the location of the
> nicopress stop. This type of stop is shown in one of Tony Bingelis' books.
>
> I have attached a photo that shows what I am talking about. Ignore the
> rudder cables with the sharp bend at the fairleads. Its just twine and not
> attached to anything at the forward end.
>
> Rick Schreiber
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
> > To: Pietenpol list
> > Date: 12/17/2009 7:58:27 AM
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Control Stops?
> >
> bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
> >
> > I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
> > airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put a
> > control stop on the elevators?
> >
> > Ben Charvet
> > Mims, Fl
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: Control stick wood
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Oscar made mention of making a control stick out of ash in a separate
thread, and that brought to mind a question: is there any reason why one
should not make control sticks out of pine? My father recently felled the
old pine tree that was right at the corner of the house I grew up in (not
too far outside my bedroom window, actually). It had been in a slow decline
over the past few years, and finally gave up the ghost. I asked him to save
a hunk o' the trunk, and maybe I could use some of the wood for some
non-structural parts of the airplane; I think it would be kind of neat to do
so. He ended up cutting the trunk off about 3 feet AGL, and the cutting the
remains down the middle, and then cutting off once again near the ground.
This left two halves of the base of the trunk, about 25" long (pony bottle
of High Life for scale, apparently):
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4193138806_afc3c42df6_o.jpg
I figured we could trim a bit of the excess off and let the pieces sit
around in the shop and dry out....then have them turned down into control
sticks eventually. I can't see any reason why pine wouldn't work, but I
thought I would toss the question out there. Thanks, and have a good day,
Ryan
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:13 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
I'm too lazy to demagnetize the
> stick, make a new one out of ash or aluminum, or make
> any other changes.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Hey Gardiner
Good job
It's a long way from putting that fuselage together at Sun n Fun.
Dick N
----- Original Message -----
From: airlion
To: pietenpol
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I
have a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for
Lockheed. He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let
ya'll know the results. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
To: Gardiner Mason
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
________________________________________________________________________________
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: Fwd: Jack a word to the wise
____________________________________
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Sent: 12/17/2009 11:30:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Jack a word to the wise
As a bagpiper, I play many gigs. Recently I was asked by a funeral
director to play at a grave side service for a homeless man. He had no family
or
friends, so the service was to be at a pauper's cemetery in the Kentucky
back-country.
As I was not familiar with the backwoods, I got lost; and being a typical
man I didn't stop for directions. I finally arrived an hour late and saw
the funeral guy had evidently gone and the hearse was nowhere in sight.
There were only the diggers and crew left and they were eating lunch. I
felt badly and apologized to the men for being late. I went to the side of
the grave and looked down and the vault lid was already in place. I didn't
know what else to do, so I started to play.
The workers put down their lunches and began to gather around. I played
out my heart and soul for this man with no family and friends. I played like
I've never played before for this homeless man.
And as I played 'Amazing Grace,' the workers began to weep. They wept, I
wept, and we all wept together. When I finished I packed up my bagpipes and
started for my car. Though my head hung low my heart was full.
As I was opened the door to my car, I heard one of the workers say,
"Whoa... I never seen nothin' like that before and I've been putting in
septic tanks for over twenty years."
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Elevator Control Stops?
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Ryan, the stops and the bellcrank are accessible from a belly access panel.
Rick S
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Mueller
Sent: 12/17/2009 10:22:21 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Control Stops?
Maybe I'm missing something; it would appear that the position is adjustable.....until
you cover the airplane. And if they are no longer accessible once covered,
then what's the advantage of them being adjustable? Again, maybe I'm just
not seeing something in the picture.
I would think with Mike's method, the Ken Perkins method that Tom sketched, or
something equivalent you would have more accessible stops located in the cockpit
areas....both for later adjustment if needed and for ease of inspection....
Ryan
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Richard Schreiber wrote:
Ben:
Here is what I did. On the 3 station forward of the rudder post I located
some nylon plates as fairleads. The elevator cables pass through these
fairleads. On all four elevator cables I swaged onto the cables nicopress
stops on the forward side. I will then take a section of dowel rod of the
proper length, drill it lengthwise and split it in half. The dowel rod
sections will then be placed around the elevator cables, between the
fairleads and the stops. The dowel rods will be held back together with
safety wire around each end. The dowel rods/nicopress stop will then butt
against the fairlead at the max deflection of the elevator. The position of
the stop is adjustable by the length of the dowel and the location of the
nicopress stop. This type of stop is shown in one of Tony Bingelis' books.
I have attached a photo that shows what I am talking about. Ignore the
rudder cables with the sharp bend at the fairleads. Its just twine and not
attached to anything at the forward end.
Rick Schreiber
> [Original Message]
> From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
> To: Pietenpol list
> Date: 12/17/2009 7:58:27 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator Control Stops?
>
>
> I'm still rebuilding my A-65 and getting the Piet ready for its
> airworthiness inspection. Can anybody share some ideas on how to put a
> control stop on the elevators?
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Subject: Jack a word to the wise
As a bagpiper, I play many gigs. Recently I was asked by a funeral
director to play at a grave side service for a homeless man. He had no family
or
friends, so the service was to be at a pauper's cemetery in the Kentucky
back-country.
As I was not familiar with the backwoods, I got lost; and being a typical
man I didn't stop for directions. I finally arrived an hour late and saw
the funeral guy had evidently gone and the hearse was nowhere in sight.
There were only the diggers and crew left and they were eating lunch. I
felt badly and apologized to the men for being late. I went to the side of
the grave and looked down and the vault lid was already in place. I didn't
know what else to do, so I started to play.
The workers put down their lunches and began to gather around. I played
out my heart and soul for this man with no family and friends. I played like
I've never played before for this homeless man.
And as I played 'Amazing Grace,' the workers began to weep. They wept, I
wept, and we all wept together. When I finished I packed up my bagpipes and
started for my car. Though my head hung low my heart was full.
As I was opened the door to my car, I heard one of the workers say,
"Whoa... I never seen nothin' like that before and I've been putting in
septic tanks for over twenty years."
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Good on e, Larry. How about re posting on April 1.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Williams
To: Pietlist
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bolts and stress anal-isis
OK, now I'm really scared. I was going to fly today to
commemorate the Wright brothers first (?) flight but after reading the
posts, I'm going to wait.
I don't remember using stainless steel hardware anywhere but
some might have snuck in somewhere and something might just snap off at
any second and I'd be a smoking crater. Scarey thought! And I'm probably
going to have to await the scientific stress anal-isis of the airframe
to even begin to feel safe and comfortable again. How in the world have
I lived so long without all this testing? It'll give me the willies
every time I fly now. Thanks for ruining my day!
Larry
ps. I have decided that along with the nosewheel, I'm going to
retain the entire engine mount and the 0-290 that came with it. Might
need a canopy with all that power on tap!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike" <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>
Subject: another kool one
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Wow! Low-and-slow that makes a Piet look zippy. And it even has a tail
wheel.
Thanks for sharing, John.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: another kool one
Every once in a while a fried of mine on the West Coast sends me an aviation
tidbit worthy of sharing, to that end I offer you this site:
https://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Zeppelin/Zeppelin.html
Enjoy
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mac Zirges" <macz(at)casco.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Date: Jan 01, 1990
Gardiner--
Your Piet looks great! Are you going to fly it to Brodhead this year?
--Mac in Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: airlion
To: pietenpol
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have
a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed
. He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know th
e results. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
To: Gardiner Mason
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
00 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Control stick wood
From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Date: Dec 17, 2009
RldJVy4uLm1pbmUgYXJlIGxhbWluYXRlZCBPcmFuZ2UgUGFkdWthIGFuZCBNYXBsZS4NCg0KR2Fy
eSBCb290aGUNClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBWZXJpem9uIFdpcmVsZXNzIEJsYWNrQmVycnkNCg0KLS0t
LS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFJ5YW4gTXVlbGxlciA8cm11ZWxsZXIyM0Bn
bWFpbC5jb20+DQpEYXRlOiBUaHUsIDE3IERlYyAyMDA5IDEwOjQyOjE5IA0KVG86IFBpZXRlbnBv
bCBMaXN0PHBpZXRlbnBvbC1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wt
TGlzdDogQ29udHJvbCBzdGljayB3b29kDQoNCk9zY2FyIG1hZGUgbWVudGlvbiBvZiBtYWtpbmcg
YSBjb250cm9sIHN0aWNrIG91dCBvZiBhc2ggaW4gYSBzZXBhcmF0ZQ0KdGhyZWFkLCBhbmQgdGhh
dCBicm91Z2h0IHRvIG1pbmQgYSBxdWVzdGlvbjogaXMgdGhlcmUgYW55IHJlYXNvbiB3aHkgb25l
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ZWNlbnRseSBmZWxsZWQgdGhlDQpvbGQgcGluZSB0cmVlIHRoYXQgd2FzIHJpZ2h0IGF0IHRoZSBj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IHdlIGNvdWxkIHRyaW0gYSBiaXQgb2YgdGhlIGV4Y2VzcyBvZmYgYW5kIGxldCB0aGUgcGllY2Vz
IHNpdA0KYXJvdW5kIGluIHRoZSBzaG9wIGFuZCBkcnkgb3V0Li4uLnRoZW4gaGF2ZSB0aGVtIHR1
cm5lZCBkb3duIGludG8gY29udHJvbA0Kc3RpY2tzIGV2ZW50dWFsbHkuIEkgY2FuJ3Qgc2VlIGFu
eSByZWFzb24gd2h5IHBpbmUgd291bGRuJ3Qgd29yaywgYnV0IEkNCnRob3VnaHQgSSB3b3VsZCB0
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PHNuaXA+DQoNCkknbSB0b28gbGF6eSB0byBkZW1hZ25ldGl6ZSB0aGUNCj4gc3RpY2ssIG1ha2Ug
YSBuZXcgb25lIG91dCBvZiBhc2ggb3IgYWx1bWludW0sIG9yIG1ha2UNCj4gYW55IG90aGVyIGNo
YW5nZXMuDQo+DQoNCg=
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Dec 17, 2009
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to go, and that stainless
steel fasteners should only be used for non-structural applications, such as
trim attachment, etc. - BUT I just did a quick internet search, and found a
website that lists MS27039C stainless steel machine screws with 125,000 PSI listed
strength:
http://www.skybolt.com
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the specific page, so you'll
have to go over to the left hand side of the page, and click "online purchasing",
then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws", and then "MS27039C Screws-Stainless".
A screen shot is attached for reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE stainless steel fasteners
that have strength comparable to AN bolts - but you should check very carefully
with the supplier regarding the strength. I have no idea how these stainless
steel fasteners compare with regards to fatigue strength, or anything else,
for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/skybolt_114.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Control Stops?
Date: Dec 17, 2009
Ryan wrote:
>I would think with Mike's method, the Ken Perkins method
>that Tom sketched, or something equivalent you would have
>more accessible stops located in the cockpit areas....both
>for later adjustment if needed and for ease of inspection..
True, but as noted in an earlier post, the old ACs and good
practice recommend control stops out near the control surface
itself. I suppose it has to do with limiting flutter if
something breaks between the cockpit and the control surface.
So there are reasons for having the stops at both ends but
my airplane doesn't have them. I guess if I survive a
situation that proves that it's a good idea to have the
stops at both ends, I'll post details on the retrofit
on this list. If I don't survive, I hope somebody at
least scrounges the turnbuckles off the carcass of 41CC
because those things are worth their weight in gold.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 17, 2009
At least in a certified aircraft stainless hardware is never approved
for structural use. Just because there is a MS number associated with a
stainless screw does not necessarily mean that is is approved for a
particular purpose, just that there is a stock number for it. Even
though the tensile strength of the material appears to equate to other
steel hardware, I would not use it in a structural location.
Gene
A&P and IA since 1981
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church<mailto:billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
>
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to go, and that
stainless steel fasteners should only be used for non-structural
applications, such as trim attachment, etc. - BUT I just did a quick
internet search, and found a website that lists MS27039C stainless steel
machine screws with 125,000 PSI listed strength:
http://www.skybolt.com>
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the specific page,
so you'll have to go over to the left hand side of the page, and click
"online purchasing", then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws", and then
"MS27039C Screws-Stainless". A screen shot is attached for reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE stainless
steel fasteners that have strength comparable to AN bolts - but you
should check very carefully with the supplier regarding the strength. I
have no idea how these stainless steel fasteners compare with regards to
fatigue strength, or anything else, for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984>
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/skybolt_114.jpg
s.com//files/skybolt_114.jpg>
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 17, 2009
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Mac, I hope to. Gardiner
________________________________
From: Mac Zirges <macz(at)casco.net>
Sent: Mon, January 1, 1990 4:37:46 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Gardiner--
Your Piet looks great! Are you going to fly it to
Brodhead this year?
--Mac in Oregon
----- Original Message -----
>From: airlion
>To: pietenpol
>Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:22
> PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and
> his Pietenpol, December 2009
>
>
>Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have
> a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed.
> He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the
> results. Cheers, Gardiner
>
>
>----- Forwarded Message ----
>From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
>To: Gardiner Mason
>Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12
> PM
>Subject: Gardiner and his
> Pietenpol, December 2009
>
> >
________________________________
>
>:
> 4/6/07 12:00 AM
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 17, 2009
In certified aircraft, specific hardware is included as part of the type
certificate. Hardware that meets the same specifications as original are
to be used, even if it is stainless steel.
In some certified aircraft, certain particular stainless steel hardware
has been used. I know of the reasonably wide use of A286, an iron,
chrome and nickel alloy, due to his high strength and relatively high
toughness.
The thing that's important in certified aircraft is to use the specified
hardware for that particular application - and sometimes it will be
stainless steel.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
At least in a certified aircraft stainless hardware is never approved
for structural use. Just because there is a MS number associated with a
stainless screw does not necessarily mean that is is approved for a
particular purpose, just that there is a stock number for it. Even
though the tensile strength of the material appears to equate to other
steel hardware, I would not use it in a structural location.
Gene
A&P and IA since 1981
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to go, and
that stainless steel fasteners should only be used for non-structural
applications, such as trim attachment, etc. - BUT I just did a quick
internet search, and found a website that lists MS27039C stainless steel
machine screws with 125,000 PSI listed strength:
http://www.skybolt.com
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the specific
page, so you'll have to go over to the left hand side of the page, and
click "online purchasing", then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws", and then
"MS27039C Screws-Stainless". A screen shot is attached for reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE stainless
steel fasteners that have strength comparable to AN bolts - but you
should check very carefully with the supplier regarding the strength. I
have no idea how these stainless steel fasteners compare with regards to
fatigue strength, or anything else, for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
Attachments:
http://forums -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the
Annual link Free * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for
your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp;
Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web
title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Control stick wood
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Maybe just removable, like Mikey's.
Clif on the Wetcoast, Land of the Stolen Sun
----- Original Message ----- >
> Maybe a 100# breakaway stick in the front pit, and 200# stick for the
> pilot?
> Tim in central TX
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Date: Dec 18, 2009
How about Sun 'n' Fun? Will you fly it down there, Gardiner? I'm hoping to
fly mine down there this year, wx permitting.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Mac, I hope to. Gardiner
_____
From: Mac Zirges <macz(at)casco.net>
Sent: Mon, January 1, 1990 4:37:46 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Gardiner--
Your Piet looks great! Are you going to fly it to Brodhead this year?
--Mac in Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: airlion <mailto:airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have a
friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed.
He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the
results. Cheers, Gardiner
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12 PM
Subject: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
_____
: 4/6/07 12:00 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: stops and sticks
Both control sticks on 799B are wood. They're laminated up from doug fir with
a center of 1/4" marine plywood, as are my cabanes and lift struts. Not flight
tested, but VERY strong.
Since my controls are all in, I've been trying to figure out a way to modify some
stops into the design. I got to thinking, why couldn't one use the front stick
actuator rod by simply putting a couple of hose clamps on it under the passenger
seat. One forward to hit the ply front support and one back to hit the
passenger back rest/bulkhead? seems simple and ultimately adjustable. One
could always glue or screw a patch of nylon sheet to take any abrasion that may
occur.
D
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
I am hoping to Jack. My inspection is in Jan., and then I have to fly off 4
0 hours. Cheers, Gardiner=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A
From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics
..com=0ASent: Fri, December 18, 2009 6:34:55 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-Lis
t: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009=0A=0A =0AHow about Sun
=98n=99 Fun? =0AWill you fly it down there, Gardiner? I=99m
hoping to fly mine down=0Athere this year, wx permitting.=0A =0AJack Phill
ips=0ANX899JP=0ARaleigh, NC=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A
=0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: owner-pietenpol-
list-server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of airlion=0ASent: Thursday, December
17, 2009=0A7:19 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Piete
npol-List: Fw:=0AGardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009=0A =0AMac, I hop
e to.=0AGardiner=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:Mac
=0AZirges =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Mon,
January 1, 1990 4:37:46=0AAM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw:=0AGardiner
and his Pietenpol, December 2009=0AGardiner--=0AYour Piet looks great! Are
you going to fly it to Brodhead=0Athis year?=0A =0A--Mac in Oregon=0A>=0A>>
=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>=0A>From:airlion =0A>>=0A>To:pietenpo
l =0A>>=0A>Sent:Wednesday,=0A>December 16, 2009 3:22 PM=0A>>=0A>Subject:Pie
tenpol-List:=0A>Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009=0A>>=0A> =0A>
>=0A>>=0A>Hey listers, Has anyone=0A>done a stress analysis for the pietenp
ol? I have a friend here in Lagrange that=0A>is an engineer and used to wor
k for Lockheed. He says that he can do a stress test=0A>on my Piet. I will
let ya'll know the results. Cheers, Gardiner=0A>>=0A> =0A>>=0A>----- Forwar
ded Message ----=0A>From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>=0A>To: Gardin
er Mason =0A>Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009=0A>7:06:12
PM=0A>Subject: Gardiner and his=0A>Pietenpol, December 2009=0A>>=0A>>=0A___
_____________________________=0A >=0A>: 4/6/07 12:00 AM
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I understand Bill and thank you for your Internet research.-- That was/
is going to be my next step, but I wanted to ask the list first just in cas
e someone out there had some real world experience using SS on the tail. (o
r anywhere)-
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, Bill Church wrote:
From: Bill Church <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 4:16 PM
>
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to go, and that stai
nless steel fasteners should only be used for non-structural applications,
such as trim attachment, etc.- - BUT I just did a quick internet search,
and found a website that lists MS27039C stainless steel machine screws with
125,000 PSI listed strength:
http://www.skybolt.com
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the specific page, so y
ou'll have to go over to the left hand side of the page, and click "online
purchasing", then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws", and then "MS27039C Screws-St
ainless". A screen shot is attached for reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE stainless steel fa
steners that have strength comparable to AN bolts - but you should check ve
ry carefully with the supplier regarding the strength. I have no idea how t
hese stainless steel fasteners compare with regards to fatigue strength, or
anything else, for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/skybolt_114.jpg
le, List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Thanks David. For my own curiosity, I will look into this further. I did no
tice in the A.C. Spruce catalog for some of their SS hardware they state th
e specs. that the bolts/screws meet.- (meets mil spec XXX-XX.XXX)- I pl
an to look into these just to see what they say. I don't know if anyone has
done so for use in a Pietenpol, but I think it would be nice, although exp
ensive, to find SUITABLE SS hardware wherever it can be used. If it can't,
it can't.
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, David Paule wrote:
From: David Paule <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 7:30 PM
In certified aircraft, specific hardware is included as part of the type ce
rtificate. Hardware that meets the same specifications as original are to b
e used, even if it is stainless steel.
-
In some certified aircraft, certain particular stainless steel hardware has
been used. I know of the reasonably wide use of A286, an iron, chrome and
nickel alloy, due to his high strength and relatively high toughness.
-
The thing that's important in certified aircraft is to use the specified ha
rdware for that particular application - and sometimes it will be stainless
steel.
-
David Paule
-
-
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
At least in a certified aircraft stainless hardware-is never approved for
structural use.- Just because there is a MS number associated with a sta
inless screw does not necessarily mean that is is approved for a particular
purpose, just that there is a stock number for it.- Even though the tens
ile strength of the material appears to equate to other steel hardware, I w
ould not use it in a structural location.
-
Gene
A&P and IA since 1981
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
>
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to go, and that stai
nless steel fasteners should only be used for non-structural applications,
such as trim attachment, etc.- - BUT I just did a quick internet search,
and found a website that lists MS27039C stainless steel machine screws with
125,000 PSI listed strength:
http://www.skybolt.com
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the specific page, so y
ou'll have to go over to the left hand side of the page, and click "online
purchasing", then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws", and then "MS27039C Screws-St
ainless". A screen shot is attached for reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE stainless steel fa
steners that have strength comparable to AN bolts - but you should check ve
ry carefully with the supplier regarding the strength. I have no idea how t
hese stainless steel fasteners compare with regards to fatigue strength, or
anything else, for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
Attachments:
http://forums -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual l
ink Free * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your gener
ous ;--------------------- -Matt
Dralle, List nbsp;------ Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp;-
--- via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://f
orums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: vahowdy(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I think all this talk about the strength of SS is much to do about
nothing. The wood in the tail will fail well before even grade 3 bolt will fail.
Bolt two 1 by's together, strand one and pull on the other. See what fails
first.
Howdy
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Control stops/pulley guards
I didn't have any stops in my Piet, but I started this thread because
someone said the FAA inspector wanted to see them...
I'm not sure they are necessary either, but I don't want to blow my
inspection for something this easy to correct.
Anybody want to talk about cable/pulley guards? I dont have any of
those either (yet) and my Piet is all covered
Ben Charvet
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> An idea worth pursuing....although I'm not convinced that control stops are
> necessary.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Control stops/pulley guards
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Ben:
I did use pulley guards on all of my pulleys. I do remember some posts in
the past where those that didn't install them had to ad them before their
FAA inspector would issue the air worthiness certificate. That is why I put
them on mine (plus the extra safety factor).
Rick Schreiber
> [Original Message]
> From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
> To:
> Date: 12/18/2009 9:15:43 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
>
>
> I didn't have any stops in my Piet, but I started this thread because
> someone said the FAA inspector wanted to see them...
> I'm not sure they are necessary either, but I don't want to blow my
> inspection for something this easy to correct.
> Anybody want to talk about cable/pulley guards? I dont have any of
> those either (yet) and my Piet is all covered
>
> Ben Charvet
>
>
> Gary Boothe wrote:
> >
> > An idea worth pursuing....although I'm not convinced that control stops
are
> > necessary.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Subject: Plans on E bay
Ran across this on e bay if anyone ins interested with drawings for the
biplane version.
item number 290382001867
These drawings could be framed and hung on the wall like art. There are 8
pages of 18"x24" blueprints for the Aircamper or Sky Scout.. Also included
are the supplemental drawings ( 3 pages) for the construction of the bi-wing
version. This supplement includes full size drawings for the wing ribs.
The Aircamper is an all wood, two place airplane designed for easy building
and fun flying. Included is supplemental drawings for a longer fuselage
version if using a lighter engine than the original. The plans also include
the conversion of a Model-A Ford motor for aircraft use.These plans have been
in my closet for 20 years and never used or even looked at in that time.
These plans plus supplemental sell for $160.00, but I will start the bidding
at $50.00. Thank you for looking and good luck. There is shipping and
handling fee of $15.00.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Control stops/pulley guards
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Pulley guards - absolutely, YES. That's a different issue from control
stops.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
Ben:
I did use pulley guards on all of my pulleys. I do remember some posts in
the past where those that didn't install them had to ad them before their
FAA inspector would issue the air worthiness certificate. That is why I put
them on mine (plus the extra safety factor).
Rick Schreiber
> [Original Message]
> From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
> To:
> Date: 12/18/2009 9:15:43 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
>
>
> I didn't have any stops in my Piet, but I started this thread because
> someone said the FAA inspector wanted to see them...
> I'm not sure they are necessary either, but I don't want to blow my
> inspection for something this easy to correct.
> Anybody want to talk about cable/pulley guards? I dont have any of
> those either (yet) and my Piet is all covered
>
> Ben Charvet
>
>
> Gary Boothe wrote:
> >
> > An idea worth pursuing....although I'm not convinced that control stops
are
> > necessary.
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 18, 2009
In general, the suffix "C" means 300 series stainless, and it's not
nearly as strong as the standard hardware. If you find stuff with the
suffix "N" it's probably the good A286, with a strength of 160 ksi, very
good stuff.
I hesitate to post this because I don't know that the "C" and "N"
suffixes apply generally or if they sometimes mean different things. So
be careful out there and check the specs yourself.
But it's usually so expensive that even the aerospace companies, that
use it in large quantities, complain about the cost.
Worth mentioning: If you are installing a nut that is self-locking, and
you need to put a specific torque on it, that's in addition to the
running torque. You've got to measure the running torque before the nut
seats and add to that to the spec torque. In most cases, though, you
don't need to torque to a specification. This only applies to those
cases where you do.
>From personal experience with a 54 year old Cessna, I can say that AN
hardware is remarkably durable and that provided that ordinary care is
taken, perfectly satisfactory. My airplane still has some original
hardware externally, and it's still airworthy. No longer shiny, to be
sure, but airworthy still. The interior hardware is entirely sound, and
in some cases isn't even tarnished.
If I were building a Pietenpol, I'd ignore the lure of stainless steel
where possible. It would only add to my difficulties. What I'd try to do
is keep the types of hardware to a minimum, using AN (and NAS and MS)
hardware where I could.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Thanks David. For my own curiosity, I will look into this
further. I did notice in the A.C. Spruce catalog for some of their SS
hardware they state the specs. that the bolts/screws meet. (meets mil
spec XXX-XX.XXX) I plan to look into these just to see what they say. I
don't know if anyone has done so for use in a Pietenpol, but I think it
would be nice, although expensive, to find SUITABLE SS hardware wherever
it can be used. If it can't, it can't.
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, David Paule wrote:
From: David Paule <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 7:30 PM
In certified aircraft, specific hardware is included as part
of the type certificate. Hardware that meets the same specifications as
original are to be used, even if it is stainless steel.
In some certified aircraft, certain particular stainless steel
hardware has been used. I know of the reasonably wide use of A286, an
iron, chrome and nickel alloy, due to his high strength and relatively
high toughness.
The thing that's important in certified aircraft is to use the
specified hardware for that particular application - and sometimes it
will be stainless steel.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
At least in a certified aircraft stainless hardware is never
approved for structural use. Just because there is a MS number
associated with a stainless screw does not necessarily mean that is is
approved for a particular purpose, just that there is a stock number for
it. Even though the tensile strength of the material appears to equate
to other steel hardware, I would not use it in a structural location.
Gene
A&P and IA since 1981
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to
go, and that stainless steel fasteners should only be used for
non-structural applications, such as trim attachment, etc. - BUT I just
did a quick internet search, and found a website that lists MS27039C
stainless steel machine screws with 125,000 PSI listed strength:
http://www.skybolt.com
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the
specific page, so you'll have to go over to the left hand side of the
page, and click "online purchasing", then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws",
and then "MS27039C Screws-Stainless". A screen shot is attached for
reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE
stainless steel fasteners that have strength comparable to AN bolts -
but you should check very carefully with the supplier regarding the
strength. I have no idea how these stainless steel fasteners compare
with regards to fatigue strength, or anything else, for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
Attachments:
http://forums -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And
Get the Annual link Free * AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/c Thank
you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp;
Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web
title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
_=============
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ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Quick disconnect front control stick
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Here is a photo of my control sticks. The front one has those spring-loade
d push-in pins for quick disconnect. I got those from Mc master-Carr. The
rear has the Ken Perkins stops. I found that I had to weld those stops on
a little off-center, to avoid contacting the control cable that rides alo
ng the top of that torque tube. Then on the torque tube where they contact
, I applied small patches of hard rubber 1/8" thick so as not to bang on
that tube too hard.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
My feelings exactly. If steel fittings and bolts are breaking in flight, th
ere probably isn't much wood left to fly anyway.
-
-
--- On Fri, 12/18/09, vahowdy(at)aol.com wrote:
From: vahowdy(at)aol.com <vahowdy(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 9:47 AM
- I think all this talk about the strength of SS is much to do about noth
ing.- The wood in the tail will fail well before-even -grade 3 bolt w
ill fail. Bolt two 1 by's together, strand one and pull on the other. See w
hat fails first.
Howdy
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Quick disconnect front control stick
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Nice! I would have expected no less from you, Dan.
If you find yourself unexpectedly on a plane to N.California this weekend,
be sure to stop by.the Cool Propeller Company is in full swing!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:08 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Here is a photo of my control sticks. The front one has those spring-loaded
push-in pins for quick disconnect. I got those from Mc master-Carr. The rear
has the Ken Perkins stops. I found that I had to weld those stops on a
little off-center, to avoid contacting the control cable that rides along
the top of that torque tube. Then on the torque tube where they contact, I
applied small patches of hard rubber 1/8" thick so as not to bang on that
tube too hard.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I leaning that way as well David. SS costs more and it would be nice to hav
e constant hardware throughout the plane.
--- On Fri, 12/18/09, David Paule wrote:
From: David Paule <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 11:05 AM
In general, the suffix "C" means 300 series stainless, and it's not nearly
as strong as the standard hardware. If you find stuff with the suffix "N" i
t's probably the good A286, with a strength of 160 ksi, very good stuff.
-
I hesitate to post this because I don't know that the "C" and "N" suffixes
apply generally or if they sometimes mean different things. So be careful o
ut there and check the specs yourself.
-
But it's usually so expensive that even the aerospace companies, that use i
t in large quantities, complain about the cost.
-
Worth mentioning: If you are installing a nut that is self-locking, and you
need to put-a specific torque on it, that's in addition to the running t
orque. You've got to measure the running torque before the nut seats and ad
d to that to the spec torque. In most cases, though, you don't need to torq
ue to a specification. This only applies to those cases where you do.
-
>From personal experience with a 54 year old Cessna, I can say that AN hardw
are is remarkably durable and that provided that ordinary care is taken, pe
rfectly satisfactory. My airplane still has some original hardware external
ly, and it's still airworthy. No longer shiny, to be sure, but airworthy st
ill. The interior hardware is entirely sound, and in some cases isn't even
tarnished.
-
If I were building a Pietenpol, I'd ignore the lure of stainless steel wher
e possible. It would only add to my difficulties. What I'd try to do is kee
p the types of hardware to a minimum, using AN (and NAS and MS)-hardware
where I could.
-
David Paule
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Thanks David. For my own curiosity, I will look into this further. I did no
tice in the A.C. Spruce catalog for some of their SS hardware they state th
e specs. that the bolts/screws meet.- (meets mil spec XXX-XX.XXX)- I pl
an to look into these just to see what they say. I don't know if anyone has
done so for use in a Pietenpol, but I think it would be nice, although exp
ensive, to find SUITABLE SS hardware wherever it can be used. If it can't,
it can't.
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, David Paule wrote:
From: David Paule <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Thursday, December 17, 2009, 7:30 PM
In certified aircraft, specific hardware is included as part of the type ce
rtificate. Hardware that meets the same specifications as original are to b
e used, even if it is stainless steel.
-
In some certified aircraft, certain particular stainless steel hardware has
been used. I know of the reasonably wide use of A286, an iron, chrome and
nickel alloy, due to his high strength and relatively high toughness.
-
The thing that's important in certified aircraft is to use the specified ha
rdware for that particular application - and sometimes it will be stainless
steel.
-
David Paule
-
-
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
At least in a certified aircraft stainless hardware-is never approved for
structural use.- Just because there is a MS number associated with a sta
inless screw does not necessarily mean that is is approved for a particular
purpose, just that there is a stock number for it.- Even though the tens
ile strength of the material appears to equate to other steel hardware, I w
ould not use it in a structural location.
-
Gene
A&P and IA since 1981
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
>
My gut feeling would be that AN bolts would be the way to go, and that stai
nless steel fasteners should only be used for non-structural applications,
such as trim attachment, etc.- - BUT I just did a quick internet search,
and found a website that lists MS27039C stainless steel machine screws with
125,000 PSI listed strength:
http://www.skybolt.com
The website won't allow me to give a direct link to the specific page, so y
ou'll have to go over to the left hand side of the page, and click "online
purchasing", then click on "AN-MS-NAS Screws", and then "MS27039C Screws-St
ainless". A screen shot is attached for reference.
So, the short answer is MAYBE you can buy AIRCRAFT GRADE stainless steel fa
steners that have strength comparable to AN bolts - but you should check ve
ry carefully with the supplier regarding the strength. I have no idea how t
hese stainless steel fasteners compare with regards to fatigue strength, or
anything else, for that matter.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=277984#277984
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Quick disconnect front control stick
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Photos of your prop please. :O)
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 10:24 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Nice! I would have expected no less from you, Dan.
If you find yourself unexpectedly on a plane to N.California this weekend,
be sure to stop bythe Cool Propeller Company is in full swing!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li
st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:08 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Here is a photo of my control sticks. The front one has those spring-loade
d push-in pins for quick disconnect. I got those from Mc master-Carr. The
rear has the Ken Perkins stops. I found that I had to weld those stops on
a little off-center, to avoid contacting the control cable that rides alo
ng the top of that torque tube. Then on the torque tube where they contact
, I applied small patches of hard rubber 1/8" thick so as not to bang on
that tube too hard.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Control stops/pulley guards
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Ben, the FAA inspector (from the FSDO - not a DAR) that inspected mine did
not say a word about control stops (I have them) but did want to see that I
had pulley guards on every pulley. I consider them essential, particularly
on a Pietenpol, because the geometry of the control system is such that when
one cable on a control surface is tight, the other generally goes slack
somewhere in its travel (this is especially true of the elevator cables).
Any time a cable can go slack, it can slip off its pulley.
Hopefully, having the Piet covered won't be too much of a problem.
Generally anywhere you have a pulley there needs to be an inspection hole
anyway, so the pulleys can be lubricated during the annual condition
inspection. In many cases, you can make a very simple guard that picks up
the pulley axle bolt and then has some other feature to hold it in position,
as shown below:
Some of my pulley guards are nothing more than a cotter pin through two
holes in the pulley brackets. They don't need to be elaborate, but they
need to be there, and they need to ENSURE that the cable cannot get off the
pulley and wedge between the pulley and the bracket. That could make for a
very ugly situation.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:09 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
I didn't have any stops in my Piet, but I started this thread because
someone said the FAA inspector wanted to see them...
I'm not sure they are necessary either, but I don't want to blow my
inspection for something this easy to correct.
Anybody want to talk about cable/pulley guards? I dont have any of
those either (yet) and my Piet is all covered
Ben Charvet
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> An idea worth pursuing....although I'm not convinced that control stops
are
> necessary.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Quick disconnect front control stick
Yes! Let's see it.....
-----Original Message-----
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Dec 18, 2009 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Photos of your prop please. :O)
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 10:24 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Nice! I would have expected no less from you, Dan.
If you find yourself unexpectedly on a plane to N.California this weekend, be sure
to stop bythe Cool Propeller Company is in full swing!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:08 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Here is a photo of my control sticks. The front one has those spring-loaded push-in
pins for quick disconnect. I got those from Mc master-Carr. The rear has
the Ken Perkins stops. I found that I had to weld those stops on a little off-center,
to avoid contacting the control cable that rides along the top of that
torque tube. Then on the torque tube where they contact, I applied small patches
of hard rubber 1/8" thick so as not to bang on that tube too hard.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
===================================
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
===================================
tp://forums.matronics.com
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Quick disconnect front control stick
Date: Dec 18, 2009
Will do. I expect to spend 2 weekends...unless I really get over my
trepidation about using a chainsaw!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Yes! Let's see it.....
-----Original Message-----
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Dec 18, 2009 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Photos of your prop please. :O)
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 10:24 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Nice! I would have expected no less from you, Dan.
If you find yourself unexpectedly on a plane to N.California this weekend,
be sure to stop by.the Cool Propeller Company is in full swing!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 8:08 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Quick disconnect front control stick
Here is a photo of my control sticks. The front one has those spring-loaded
push-in pins for quick disconnect. I got those from Mc master-Carr. The rear
has the Ken Perkins stops. I found that I had to weld those stops on a
little off-center, to avoid contacting the control cable that rides along
the top of that torque tube. Then on the torque tube where they contact, I
applied small patches of hard rubber 1/8" thick so as not to bang on that
tube too hard.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
===================================
=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com
m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
===================================
tp://forums.matronics.com
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Quick disconnect front control stick
Gary,
A word to the wise, keep the bar of the saw buried in the wood, right up
to where it attaches to the engine. Do NOT try to cut with the tip of
the blade. If it kicks back and you're not prepared, you could lose an
arm (or a head...). If it kicks and the bar is buried, then it won't
kick far. You'll also have better control over the saw with it buried
in the wood and you can use the grabber teeth on the engine to lever
your way through (a little - it's still better to just let it go through
at it's own pace).
Good luck!
Dan
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> Will do. I expect to spend 2 weekends...unless I really get over my
> trepidation about using a chainsaw!
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> (16 ribs down.)
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 18, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Control stops/pulley guards
I've figured our a way to add them, sure would have been easier before
the cover. All of my pulley brackets are so tight to the sides of the
pulleys that I didn't see any way the cable could jam between the pulley
and bracket. Jack, I couldn't find a way to open a XX.dat file.
Ben
Jack Phillips wrote:
> Ben, the FAA inspector (from the FSDO - not a DAR) that inspected mine did
> not say a word about control stops (I have them) but did want to see that I
> had pulley guards on every pulley. I consider them essential, particularly
> on a Pietenpol, because the geometry of the control system is such that when
> one cable on a control surface is tight, the other generally goes slack
> somewhere in its travel (this is especially true of the elevator cables).
> Any time a cable can go slack, it can slip off its pulley.
>
> Hopefully, having the Piet covered won't be too much of a problem.
> Generally anywhere you have a pulley there needs to be an inspection hole
> anyway, so the pulleys can be lubricated during the annual condition
> inspection. In many cases, you can make a very simple guard that picks up
> the pulley axle bolt and then has some other feature to hold it in position,
> as shown below:
>
>
> Some of my pulley guards are nothing more than a cotter pin through two
> holes in the pulley brackets. They don't need to be elaborate, but they
> need to be there, and they need to ENSURE that the cable cannot get off the
> pulley and wedge between the pulley and the bracket. That could make for a
> very ugly situation.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Charvet
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:09 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
>
>
> I didn't have any stops in my Piet, but I started this thread because
> someone said the FAA inspector wanted to see them...
> I'm not sure they are necessary either, but I don't want to blow my
> inspection for something this easy to correct.
> Anybody want to talk about cable/pulley guards? I dont have any of
> those either (yet) and my Piet is all covered
>
> Ben Charvet
>
>
> Gary Boothe wrote:
>
>>
>> An idea worth pursuing....although I'm not convinced that control stops
>>
> are
>
>> necessary.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2009
From: <psiegel(at)fuse.net>
Subject: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
I am curious if there is a consensus on how to bolt a Piet horizontal stabilizer
to the fuselage longerons?
Do most builders use a fiber lock nut to secure the bolt? If so, how is access
achieved below the stab after the fuselage is covered to place and tighten the
nut and washer? Is it through an inspection plate (or two) in the fabric covering
under the stab?
Or, is a nut plate used? But if a nut plate is used, how is the nut plate attached
to the longeron? Is it riveted to an aluminum or steel plate which in turn
is attached to the longeron? If so, how is that plate/nut plate assembly fastened
to the longeron? Wood screws? Through bolted?
Or is the consensus to use blind nuts? If so, how does one safety the bolt from
backing out?
Or, is there some other method?
While on the topic, is the horizontal stab bolted to the fuselage with two bolts
at the leading edge of the stab, or with two bolts through the center beam of
the stab, or with four bolts through both locations?
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
It appears I have been remiss. I didn't document that area.
I put a crosspiece under the leading edge and a 1/8" ply plate
below that crossing under both longerons. That has two
10-32 nut plates, the hardware kind with the three little spikes
in it, just inboard of the longerons. Two AN-3 bolts go down
into those from the top. That way no holes in the longerons and
no problem with it closed in.
Also remember that the Man himself simply used two tiny wood
screws for this job and none of his fell out of the sky.
Clif
> I am curious if there is a consensus on how to bolt a Piet horizontal
> stabilizer to the fuselage longerons?
Paul Siegel
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
On NX18235 a piece of .090 steel spans the underside of the longerons in
this area. Nutplates to anchor the stabilizer are attached to the steel.
This also acts as the anchor point, via cables in the turtledeck, for the
pilot's shoulder straps.
Greg C.
----- Original Message -----
From: <psiegel(at)fuse.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:24 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
>
> I am curious if there is a consensus on how to bolt a Piet horizontal
> stabilizer to the fuselage longerons?
>
> Do most builders use a fiber lock nut to secure the bolt? If so, how is
> access achieved below the stab after the fuselage is covered to place and
> tighten the nut and washer? Is it through an inspection plate (or two) in
> the fabric covering under the stab?
>
> Or, is a nut plate used? But if a nut plate is used, how is the nut plate
> attached to the longeron? Is it riveted to an aluminum or steel plate
> which in turn is attached to the longeron? If so, how is that plate/nut
> plate assembly fastened to the longeron? Wood screws? Through bolted?
>
> Or is the consensus to use blind nuts? If so, how does one safety the
> bolt from backing out?
>
> Or, is there some other method?
>
> While on the topic, is the horizontal stab bolted to the fuselage with two
> bolts at the leading edge of the stab, or with two bolts through the
> center beam of the stab, or with four bolts through both locations?
>
> Paul Siegel
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
I used nutplates, and used tiny screws to attach them to the underside of
the longeron. Works great. No need for access hole or inspection hole.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: psiegel(at)fuse.net
Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
I am curious if there is a consensus on how to bolt a Piet horizontal stab
ilizer
o the fuselage longerons?
Do most builders use a fiber lock nut to secure the bolt? If so, how is
access
chieved below the stab after the fuselage is covered to place and tighten
the
ut and washer? Is it through an inspection plate (or two) in the fabric
overing under the stab?
Or, is a nut plate used? But if a nut plate is used, how is the nut plate
ttached to the longeron? Is it riveted to an aluminum or steel plate whic
h in
urn is attached to the longeron? If so, how is that plate/nut plate assem
bly
astened to the longeron? Wood screws? Through bolted?
Or is the consensus to use blind nuts? If so, how does one safety the bol
t from
acking out?
Or, is there some other method?
While on the topic, is the horizontal stab bolted to the fuselage with two
bolts
t the leading edge of the stab, or with two bolts through the center beam
of
he stab, or with four bolts through both locations?
Paul Siegel
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
I did the same as Dan. Works just fine, and with a nutplate you have the
option of "shimming" the horizontal stabilizer with washers to change the
incidence.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
I used nutplates, and used tiny screws to attach them to the underside of
the longeron. Works great. No need for access hole or inspection hole.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: psiegel(at)fuse.net
Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:24 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
I am curious if there is a consensus on how to bolt a Piet horizontal
stabilizer
to the fuselage longerons?
Do most builders use a fiber lock nut to secure the bolt? If so, how is
access
achieved below the stab after the fuselage is covered to place and tighten
the
nut and washer? Is it through an inspection plate (or two) in the fabric
covering under the stab?
Or, is a nut plate used? But if a nut plate is used, how is the nut plate
attached to the longeron? Is it riveted to an aluminum or steel plate which
in
turn is attached to the longeron? If so, how is that plate/nut plate
assembly
fastened to the longeron? Wood screws? Through bolted?
Or is the consensus to use blind nuts? If so, how does one safety the bolt
from
backing out?
Or, is there some other method?
While on the topic, is the horizontal stab bolted to the fuselage with two
bolts
at the leading edge of the stab, or with two bolts through the center beam
of
the stab, or with four bolts through both locations?
Paul Siegel
===================================
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m/" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com
=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com
_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
===================================
tp://forums.matronics.com
===================================
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Control stops/pulley guards
Date: Dec 19, 2009
unless you have the old style pulleys with bronze bushings in them, you
do not lubricate pulleys during inspections. Most have sealed bearings.
I have seen way more problems caused by over lubrication, which
attracts dirt and causes wear than under lubrication.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips<mailto:pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
Ben, the FAA inspector (from the FSDO - not a DAR) that inspected mine
did
not say a word about control stops (I have them) but did want to see
that I
had pulley guards on every pulley. I consider them essential,
particularly
on a Pietenpol, because the geometry of the control system is such
that when
one cable on a control surface is tight, the other generally goes
slack
somewhere in its travel (this is especially true of the elevator
cables).
Any time a cable can go slack, it can slip off its pulley.
Hopefully, having the Piet covered won't be too much of a problem.
Generally anywhere you have a pulley there needs to be an inspection
hole
anyway, so the pulleys can be lubricated during the annual condition
inspection. In many cases, you can make a very simple guard that
picks up
the pulley axle bolt and then has some other feature to hold it in
position,
as shown below:
Some of my pulley guards are nothing more than a cotter pin through
two
holes in the pulley brackets. They don't need to be elaborate, but
they
need to be there, and they need to ENSURE that the cable cannot get
off the
pulley and wedge between the pulley and the bracket. That could make
for a
very ugly situation.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben
Charvet
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:09 AM
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control stops/pulley guards
>
I didn't have any stops in my Piet, but I started this thread because
someone said the FAA inspector wanted to see them...
I'm not sure they are necessary either, but I don't want to blow my
inspection for something this easy to correct.
Anybody want to talk about cable/pulley guards? I dont have any of
those either (yet) and my Piet is all covered
Ben Charvet
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
>
> An idea worth pursuing....although I'm not convinced that control
stops
are
> necessary.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Subject: ELSA registration
My cousin just bought a Avid flyer. From all reports he got a great little plane.
He intends on getting his Sport Pilot rating.
The FAA lists it simply as experimental, not as ELSA. by all the definitions it
could fit in the LSA category. Does he need to get this reregistered as an ELSA
or does he simply fly it within the LSA guidelines?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Allright, I post things on here from time to time and sometimes get
criticism, most times get ignored, but occasionally get listened to. I
do not know everyone's background on here, some of us are A&P's, don't
know how many IA's, some are engineers, and some have experience
building/maintaining other aircraft. I'll just say that I have been
doing this long enough that I deserve to at least be listened to.
There are several threads going right now that I would like to express a
couple of suggestions abput, but the statement below scares the hell out
of me. So, starting with that one, I think that the logic behind this
statement leads to a spiral to the bottom. If you make every decision
based on the relative strength of the part in question being compared to
the strength of what it is connected to, you will end up with an
airplane made out of paper. I can certainly see an instance where the
stainless steel bolt holding the tail brace wires could fail after hours
of vibration (which those wires absolutely do to the fitting/bolt) long
before the wood would fail. No tail brace wires, tail folds, you're
dead. I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any
certified aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural
application. Yes, there are some exotic materials used in engines,
particularly jets, and there may be some in specific military
applications, but not in certificated general aviation aircraft. Years
ago, we had to fight tooth and nail with the FAA to even get them to
allow stainless hardware replacements in cowling/inspection panels,
which is the norm today.
There is a lot of discussion regarding control stops. I personally do
not think the aircraft needs them. There were a lot of aircraft from
this era that did not have them, and they do not appear in the plans.
That said, I do not question anyone who wishes to install them, it is
not a bad idea. I do get concerned, however, with any limitation to
control travel that includes some mechanical blockage in the control
system other than at one end of the system, either the control surface
or at the stick/rudder bar. Next to a total structural failure, the
next worse thing that could happen to an aircraft is a control jam,
particularly in the elevator system. I would ask any of you to
seriously reconsider a physical limitation in the middle of the system,
it is typically not allowed. I would also suggest that it be on one end
or the other of the system, not at both ends which, again, is not the
norm.
The last most recent discussion is over wooden control sticks. They can
be beautiful, there is nothing necessarily wrong with them, but we
should consider a couple of things with the Piet. Because of the design
of the system, the bottom of the stick below the cable attachments is a
real structural part of the control system. Wood is fine for structural
use (I.e. the rest of the airplane) but only if the piece is sufficient
size. A 1" diameter piece of wood would probably not be strong enough
in this location, it should be much larger. Also consider that the bolt
at the cable attachments would be rotating, a definite no-no in wood.
It appears that someone has made a steel bottom and put a wooden stick
in above that. That may be fine, but is would be a huge stress at the
junction point. I know of at least one friend who was killed when a
wooden control stick broke off (Waco) and I would not like to have
another.
Feel free to flame at will, but please at least consider the above
suggestions. So much of this airplane lends itself to personalization
and/or experimentation, but there are some areas that are tried and
proven and should not be altered without serious consideration.
Gene Rambo
(ducking for cover)
----- Original Message -----
From: vahowdy(at)aol.com<mailto:vahowdy(at)aol.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I think all this talk about the strength of SS is much to do about
nothing. The wood in the tail will fail well before even grade 3 bolt
will fail. Bolt two 1 by's together, strand one and pull on the other.
See what fails first.
Howdy
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "mike" <bike.mike(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Gene,
All of the concerns you've expressed are, in my opinion, dead on.
Especially those concerning the control system. Thanks for braving the
flames.
Mike Hardaway
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Allright, I post things on here from time to time and sometimes get
criticism, most times get ignored, but occasionally get listened to. I do
not know everyone's background on here, some of us are A&P's, don't know how
many IA's, some are engineers, and some have experience building/maintaining
other aircraft. I'll just say that I have been doing this long enough that
I deserve to at least be listened to.
There are several threads going right now that I would like to express a
couple of suggestions abput, but the statement below scares the hell out of
me. So, starting with that one, I think that the logic behind this
statement leads to a spiral to the bottom. If you make every decision based
on the relative strength of the part in question being compared to the
strength of what it is connected to, you will end up with an airplane made
out of paper. I can certainly see an instance where the stainless steel
bolt holding the tail brace wires could fail after hours of vibration (which
those wires absolutely do to the fitting/bolt) long before the wood would
fail. No tail brace wires, tail folds, you're dead. I stand by my earlier
statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless
hardware in a structural application. Yes, there are some exotic materials
used in engines, particularly jets, and there may be some in specific
military applications, but not in certificated general aviation aircraft.
Years ago, we had to fight tooth and nail with the FAA to even get them to
allow stainless hardware replacements in cowling/inspection panels, which is
the norm today.
There is a lot of discussion regarding control stops. I personally do not
think the aircraft needs them. There were a lot of aircraft from this era
that did not have them, and they do not appear in the plans. That said, I
do not question anyone who wishes to install them, it is not a bad idea. I
do get concerned, however, with any limitation to control travel that
includes some mechanical blockage in the control system other than at one
end of the system, either the control surface or at the stick/rudder bar.
Next to a total structural failure, the next worse thing that could happen
to an aircraft is a control jam, particularly in the elevator system. I
would ask any of you to seriously reconsider a physical limitation in the
middle of the system, it is typically not allowed. I would also suggest
that it be on one end or the other of the system, not at both ends which,
again, is not the norm.
The last most recent discussion is over wooden control sticks. They can be
beautiful, there is nothing necessarily wrong with them, but we should
consider a couple of things with the Piet. Because of the design of the
system, the bottom of the stick below the cable attachments is a real
structural part of the control system. Wood is fine for structural use
(I.e. the rest of the airplane) but only if the piece is sufficient size. A
1" diameter piece of wood would probably not be strong enough in this
location, it should be much larger. Also consider that the bolt at the
cable attachments would be rotating, a definite no-no in wood. It appears
that someone has made a steel bottom and put a wooden stick in above that.
That may be fine, but is would be a huge stress at the junction point. I
know of at least one friend who was killed when a wooden control stick broke
off (Waco) and I would not like to have another.
Feel free to flame at will, but please at least consider the above
suggestions. So much of this airplane lends itself to personalization
and/or experimentation, but there are some areas that are tried and proven
and should not be altered without serious consideration.
Gene Rambo
(ducking for cover)
----- Original Message -----
From: vahowdy(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I think all this talk about the strength of SS is much to do about
nothing. The wood in the tail will fail well before even grade 3 bolt will
fail. Bolt two 1 by's together, strand one and pull on the other. See what
fails first.
Howdy
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 19, 2009
My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it within the
Sport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it without a medical versus
flying it with a medical. I really don't know of any advantages to trying
to get the Avid registered as an ELSA. Anyone else know of any benefits?
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278155#278155
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
I am working on the same deal now with installing the tail. (Temporarily)
-
The plans show the leading edge held in place with wood screws.- I plan o
n using those round, 3 pronged nut plate things someone else mentioned and
go through the longeron.
-
Next back is the main beam. I added a 1" X 3/4" spruce cross brace here so
that I can bolt through the metal fitting that holds the rudder in place, t
hrough the horiz. stab. and then through the added cross brace into the sam
e 3 prong nut plates.
-
Last is the trailing edge. Here you bolt through the metal fittings attachi
ng the rudder, through the horiz.stab., through the bottom metal fittings a
nd then a nut. These metal fittings on the bottom bolt through the tail pos
t.- These are through bolts as well going from one metal fitting, through
the tail post, through the other metal fitting and then a nut.
-
-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jason Holmes" <jholmes8(at)columbus.rr.com>
Subject: ELSA registration
Date: Dec 19, 2009
With an ELSA registration, any LSA repairman can work on the plane. As an
experimental, the original builder can work on the plane. I believe it only
takes a three day course to be an LSA repairman.
To answer your original question, he can just fly it within the LSA
guidelines.
My 2 cents,
Jason Holmes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dortch,
Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: ELSA registration
My cousin just bought a Avid flyer. From all reports he got a great little
plane. He intends on getting his Sport Pilot rating.
The FAA lists it simply as experimental, not as ELSA. by all the definitions
it could fit in the LSA category. Does he need to get this reregistered as
an ELSA or does he simply fly it within the LSA guidelines?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2009
From: <r.r.hall(at)cox.net>
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
My understanding is that it is registered as an experimental not ELSA there was
a recent article about that I saw somewhere. Maybe try the Kitplanes or EAA websites.
Rodney Hall
---- "Dortch wrote:
>
>
> My cousin just bought a Avid flyer. From all reports he got a great little plane.
He intends on getting his Sport Pilot rating.
>
> The FAA lists it simply as experimental, not as ELSA. by all the definitions
it could fit in the LSA category. Does he need to get this reregistered as an
ELSA or does he simply fly it within the LSA guidelines?
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bryan green" <lgreen1(at)sc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Just fly it.
Bryan Green
Elgin SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: ELSA registration
>
>
>
> My cousin just bought a Avid flyer. From all reports he got a great little
> plane. He intends on getting his Sport Pilot rating.
>
> The FAA lists it simply as experimental, not as ELSA. by all the
> definitions it could fit in the LSA category. Does he need to get this
> reregistered as an ELSA or does he simply fly it within the LSA
> guidelines?
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bryan green" <lgreen1(at)sc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
Date: Dec 19, 2009
The only advantage would be that you could sign off your own annual after
taking the 3 day class.
Bryan Green
Elgin SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 3:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
>
> My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it
> within the Sport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it
> without a medical versus flying it with a medical. I really don't know of
> any advantages to trying to get the Avid registered as an ELSA. Anyone
> else know of any benefits?
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278155#278155
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Gene, I for one appreciate you comments.
-
-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my
earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the below,
although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was planning on
using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who owns an aircraft
restoration business and whose opinion I value greatly) pointed out to
me one day, he said "look at those prongs, wood is composed of long
fibers and when those prongs bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of
the fibers in the location" The more I thought about it, I think he is
right. Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in
a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location by as
much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I still wish I
could. I am just throwing out the observation for everyone's
consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection to using staples
on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez<mailto:speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
I am working on the same deal now with installing the tail.
(Temporarily)
The plans show the leading edge held in place with wood screws.
I plan on using those round, 3 pronged nut plate things someone else
mentioned and go through the longeron.
Next back is the main beam. I added a 1" X 3/4" spruce cross
brace here so that I can bolt through the metal fitting that holds the
rudder in place, through the horiz. stab. and then through the added
cross brace into the same 3 prong nut plates.
Last is the trailing edge. Here you bolt through the metal
fittings attaching the rudder, through the horiz.stab., through the
bottom metal fittings and then a nut. These metal fittings on the bottom
bolt through the tail post. These are through bolts as well going from
one metal fitting, through the tail post, through the other metal
fitting and then a nut.
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Don, there are no benefits that I see. Even if you didn't build your
experimental you can still do all the work on it yourself. You just need a
"Conditional Inspection" performed by any A & P, every year. The up side is
that an Experimental is much easier to sell than a ELSA. By the way, The
Avid is a wonderful airplane.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:55 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
>
> My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it
> within the Sport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it
> without a medical versus flying it with a medical. I really don't know of
> any advantages to trying to get the Avid registered as an ELSA. Anyone
> else know of any benefits?
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278155#278155
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08:33:00
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Gene,
Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to sink
into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This may or
may not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but it may be
with considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to use a slightly
longer bolt.
I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's just
a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I just have
ideas sometimes.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo" wrote:
> at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my
> earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the
> below, although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was
> planning on using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who
> owns an aircraft restoration business and whose opinion I value
> greatly) pointed out to me one day, he said "look at those prongs,
> wood is composed of long fibers and when those prongs bite in, they
> probably cut a good 1/4 of the fibers in the location" The more I
> thought about it, I think he is right. Most of the prongs I have
> seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in a 1" longeron, we may be
> reducing the strength at that location by as much as 1/4. I have
> decided not to use them, although I still wish I could. I am just
> throwing out the observation for everyone's consideration. (by the
> way, he has the same objection to using staples on gussets, but I am
> NOT going there!!)
>
> Gene
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 19, 2009
sure, that would be a great alternative. Like I said, I only offered
the observation for consideration. Another reason I am not using the
pronged nutplates is that when I drilled the bolts through the main spar
and longerons, the hole comes out behind a gusset very close to a joint,
so I cannot get to the back side to back-drill for the nutplate (which
is a larger diameter than the bolt size)
not that anyone else might want to do this, but my plan is to drill a
large hole in the outboard gusset (3/4 or so) and because the fabric is
tight against the side of the fuselage in that area, just glueing the
fabric to the gusset and then cutting out the hole. Than I can use one
of those round pronged hole covers (or even a small aluminum cover and
screws) to hide the hole. That way, I can put nuts on after the
fuselage is covered.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Bressler<mailto:wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
Gene,
Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to sink
into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This may or may
not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but it may be with
considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to use a slightly longer
bolt.
I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's just
a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I just have
ideas sometimes.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com<http://taildraggersinc.com/>
Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo"
> wrote:
at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to my
earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the below,
although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was planning on
using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who owns an aircraft
restoration business and whose opinion I value greatly) pointed out to
me one day, he said "look at those prongs, wood is composed of long
fibers and when those prongs bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of
the fibers in the location" The more I thought about it, I think he is
right. Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in
a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location by as
much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I still wish I
could. I am just throwing out the observation for everyone's
consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection to using staples
on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)
Gene
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
All I did was put an inspection cover on the side of the fuselage. Then
you can use regular AN nuts, bolts, and large washers. Simplicity!
Ben Charvet
Gene Rambo wrote:
> sure, that would be a great alternative. Like I said, I only offered
> the observation for consideration. Another reason I am not using the
> pronged nutplates is that when I drilled the bolts through the main
> spar and longerons, the hole comes out behind a gusset very close to a
> joint, so I cannot get to the back side to back-drill for the nutplate
> (which is a larger diameter than the bolt size)
>
> not that anyone else might want to do this, but my plan is to drill a
> large hole in the outboard gusset (3/4 or so) and because the fabric
> is tight against the side of the fuselage in that area, just glueing
> the fabric to the gusset and then cutting out the hole. Than I can
> use one of those round pronged hole covers (or even a small aluminum
> cover and screws) to hide the hole. That way, I can put nuts on after
> the fuselage is covered.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Wayne Bressler
> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
> longerons
>
> Gene,
>
> Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to
> sink into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This
> may or may not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but
> it may be with considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to
> use a slightly longer bolt.
>
> I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's
> just a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I
> just have ideas sometimes.
>
> Wayne Bressler Jr.
> Taildraggers, Inc.
> taildraggersinc.com <http://taildraggersinc.com>
>
> Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
>
> On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo" > wrote:
>
>> at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to
>> my earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the
>> below, although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I
>> was planning on using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend
>> (who owns an aircraft restoration business and whose opinion I
>> value greatly) pointed out to me one day, he said "look at those
>> prongs, wood is composed of long fibers and when those prongs
>> bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of the fibers in the
>> location" The more I thought about it, I think he is right.
>> Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in
>> a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location
>> by as much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I
>> still wish I could. I am just throwing out the observation for
>> everyone's consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection
>> to using staples on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)
>>
>> Gene
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 19, 2009
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
It would seem to be a bit of a moot point either way, if the Avid has
actually been registered as an Experimental aircraft. Here's a Q&A from
sportpilot.org:
Question: Can an Experimental Amateur Built and N-Numbered airplane be
downgraded to ELSA (IE Challenger II Long Wing)?
Answer: No, the certification of the aircraft must remain as is. A sport
pilot is allowed to fly any aircraft that meets the definition of a
light-sport aircraft regardless of what category the aircraft is
certificated in, so there's no need to change the certification of the
Challenger you refer to.
As Jason pointed out, he can fly it as an LSA. Again, per sportpilot.org:
Question: Can I fly an Experimental Amateur-Built (homebuilt) aircraft as a
sport pilot?
Answer: Yes, as long as the aircraft meets the definition of a light-sport
aircraft. (Ref: 14 CFR Part 1.1)
Ryan
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 3:11 PM, bryan green wrote:
>
> The only advantage would be that you could sign off your own annual after
> taking the 3 day class.
> Bryan Green
> Elgin SC
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 3:55 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
>
>
>>
>> My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it
>> within the Sport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it without
>> a medical versus flying it with a medical. I really don't know of any
>> advantages to trying to get the Avid registered as an ELSA. Anyone else
>> know of any benefits?
>>
>> Don Emch
>> NX899DE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278155#278155
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 20, 2009
I for one am very dissappointed in the lack of flames over this topic. What
has this list degenerated to? Here a person of experience and integrity
offers real wisdom based on fact, and spouts opinions that fly in the face
of desire, and no one takes him to task?
Good post, Gene.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Gene,
All of the concerns you've expressed are, in my opinion, dead on.
Especially those concerning the control system. Thanks for braving the
flames.
Mike Hardaway
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Allright, I post things on here from time to time and sometimes get
criticism, most times get ignored, but occasionally get listened to. I do
not know everyone's background on here, some of us are A&P's, don't know how
many IA's, some are engineers, and some have experience building/maintaining
other aircraft. I'll just say that I have been doing this long enough that
I deserve to at least be listened to.
There are several threads going right now that I would like to express a
couple of suggestions abput, but the statement below scares the hell out of
me. So, starting with that one, I think that the logic behind this
statement leads to a spiral to the bottom. If you make every decision based
on the relative strength of the part in question being compared to the
strength of what it is connected to, you will end up with an airplane made
out of paper. I can certainly see an instance where the stainless steel
bolt holding the tail brace wires could fail after hours of vibration (which
those wires absolutely do to the fitting/bolt) long before the wood would
fail. No tail brace wires, tail folds, you're dead. I stand by my earlier
statement that I am not aware of any certified aircraft that uses stainless
hardware in a structural application. Yes, there are some exotic materials
used in engines, particularly jets, and there may be some in specific
military applications, but not in certificated general aviation aircraft.
Years ago, we had to fight tooth and nail with the FAA to even get them to
allow stainless hardware replacements in cowling/inspection panels, which is
the norm today.
There is a lot of discussion regarding control stops. I personally do not
think the aircraft needs them. There were a lot of aircraft from this era
that did not have them, and they do not appear in the plans. That said, I
do not question anyone who wishes to install them, it is not a bad idea. I
do get concerned, however, with any limitation to control travel that
includes some mechanical blockage in the control system other than at one
end of the system, either the control surface or at the stick/rudder bar.
Next to a total structural failure, the next worse thing that could happen
to an aircraft is a control jam, particularly in the elevator system. I
would ask any of you to seriously reconsider a physical limitation in the
middle of the system, it is typically not allowed. I would also suggest
that it be on one end or the other of the system, not at both ends which,
again, is not the norm.
The last most recent discussion is over wooden control sticks. They can be
beautiful, there is nothing necessarily wrong with them, but we should
consider a couple of things with the Piet. Because of the design of the
system, the bottom of the stick below the cable attachments is a real
structural part of the control system. Wood is fine for structural use
(I.e. the rest of the airplane) but only if the piece is sufficient size. A
1" diameter piece of wood would probably not be strong enough in this
location, it should be much larger. Also consider that the bolt at the
cable attachments would be rotating, a definite no-no in wood. It appears
that someone has made a steel bottom and put a wooden stick in above that.
That may be fine, but is would be a huge stress at the junction point. I
know of at least one friend who was killed when a wooden control stick broke
off (Waco) and I would not like to have another.
Feel free to flame at will, but please at least consider the above
suggestions. So much of this airplane lends itself to personalization
and/or experimentation, but there are some areas that are tried and proven
and should not be altered without serious consideration.
Gene Rambo
(ducking for cover)
----- Original Message -----
From: vahowdy(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
I think all this talk about the strength of SS is much to do about
nothing. The wood in the tail will fail well before even grade 3 bolt will
fail. Bolt two 1 by's together, strand one and pull on the other. See what
fails first.
Howdy
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 20, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Gene,
Your tirade has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1/4"
prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to ho
ld the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that
airplane for a thousand hours without that longeron breaking there.
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from
the smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when afte
r 1000+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the to
p 1" x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used
to hold on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the
horizontal stabilizer" NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 20, 2009
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail. A
screw pushes fibers aside and goes between them. the prongs are sharp
and cut the fibers. Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in,
they are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area. Some of
the nutplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and
they are arranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on). If
the nutplate is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like
having a 1/2" bolt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.
I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an
observation made by someone else that I think is valid and should be at
least considered. I am not saying that using one will cause you to
crash, I might still use them myself, but I think the suggestion someone
had about glueing on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into
is a great idea!
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew(at)aol.com<mailto:helspersew(at)aol.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
Gene,
Your tirade has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those
1/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used
to hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can
fly that airplane for a thousand hours without that longeron breaking
there.
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away
from the smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained
when after 1000+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in
both the top 1" x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws
that were used to hold on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts
that held down the horizontal stabilizer" NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Bolts and stress anal-isis
Date: Dec 20, 2009
Do to a popular desire for flames, I will make this comment:
If you're replacing hardware on a certified aircraft, be certain that it
meets the same specification. Don't just assume it's a 125 ksi steel
bolt, go look up the parts breakdown for that plane and be sure of what
you're installing.
Happy holidays, folks!
David Paule
I stand by my earlier statement that I am not aware of any certified
aircraft that uses stainless hardware in a structural application.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
I would agree. For those who have driven hundreds of small nails in all of
those gussets, and who knows where else, I would not worry. Nails, small sc
rews, staples...quite a few wood planes are full of them.-- I find it h
arder to believe that Gene would drill a 3/4" hole through a gusset then to
pound in a couple pronged nut plates.
-
However, he did say this was an observation more then anything else, so, po
int noted.
--- On Sun, 12/20/09, helspersew(at)aol.com wrote:
From: helspersew(at)aol.com <helspersew(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 7:50 AM
Gene,
-
Your-tirade-has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1
/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to
hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that
airplane for a thousand-hours without that longeron breaking there.
-
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from th
e smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when after 10
00+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the top 1"
x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used to hol
d on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the horizon
tal stabilizer"- NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Along those same ideas...I have made it a habit of gluing in a 1/16" or thi
cker piece of plywood where ever I drill through holes in the spruce.- Th
ese plywood plates in effect tie the spruce grain together around said dril
led hole.- The ply will also support the washers/nuts better then the sof
t pine when tightened. Just something I have been doing since day one.
--- On Sun, 12/20/09, Gene Rambo wrote:
From: Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 9:39 AM
Dan, I think that the prongs are way different from a screw or nail.- A s
crew pushes fibers aside and goes between them.- the prongs are sharp and
cut the fibers.- Also, there are three prongs so that as it digs in, the
y are pretty much cutting all of the fibers in that area.- Some of the nu
tplates I have seen have prongs that may be longer than 1/4, and they are a
rranged so that they overlap each other (viewed edge on).- If the nutplat
e is, say, a half inch in diameter, it might be almost like having a 1/2" b
olt hole in the spar, or at least 1/4" deep.
-
I didn't say not to use the pronged nutplates, just offered an observation
made by someone else-that I think is valid and should be at least conside
red.- I am not saying that using one will cause you to crash, I might sti
ll use them myself, but-I think the suggestion someone had about glueing
on a small plywood plate for the nutplate to bite into is a great idea!
-
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Gene,
-
Your-tirade-has now gone too far, and needs some reining-in. If those 1
/4"prongs are bad, I guess I am in trouble with the small screws I used to
hold the nut plates to the longeron. But I am willing to bet I can fly that
airplane for a thousand-hours without that longeron breaking there.
-
I can just see the NTSB report now, as the investigators drive away from th
e smoldering hole: "normal flight was unable to me maintained when after 10
00+ hours, catastrophic failure occurred simultaneously in both the top 1"
x 1" spruce longerons due to the two tiny wood screws that were used to hol
d on the nutplates used to secure the AN-3 bolts that held down the horizon
tal stabilizer"- NOT
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
>www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cti
tle=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 20, 2009
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Maybe ,if I can get the 40 hours flown off. It still has to be inspected in Jan.
Gardiner Mason
________________________________
From: Mac Zirges <macz(at)casco.net>
Sent: Mon, January 1, 1990 4:37:46 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and his Pietenpol, December 2009
Gardiner--
Your Piet looks great! Are you going to fly it to
Brodhead this year?
--Mac in Oregon
----- Original Message -----
>From: airlion
>To: pietenpol
>Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:22
> PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Gardiner and
> his Pietenpol, December 2009
>
>
>Hey listers, Has anyone done a stress analysis for the pietenpol? I have
> a friend here in Lagrange that is an engineer and used to work for Lockheed.
> He says that he can do a stress test on my Piet. I will let ya'll know the
> results. Cheers, Gardiner
>
>
>----- Forwarded Message ----
>From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com>
>To: Gardiner Mason
>Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 7:06:12
> PM
>Subject: Gardiner and his
> Pietenpol, December 2009
>
> >
________________________________
>
>:
> 4/6/07 12:00 AM
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Dec 20, 2009
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
Thank, all o y'all (that is the plural, plural of y'all.) for the answer on E-LSA
vs E Amature built on a totally different aircraft. It appears that the only
difference is if he can do the "annual" or if he needs and A&P to do it. I have
sent him this info and he is thinking about leaving it as E-amature built.
He kind of likes the idea of a second set of eyes looking over his work every
year.
Blue Skies and Merry Christmas,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 20, 2009
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the
chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too
much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as it's easy
to get fatigued and lose concentration.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 20, 2009
Gary,
It's very impressive.
And without any major bloodstains, too. Excellent work.
David Paule
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get
thru the chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not
taken off too much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I
thought, as it's easy to get fatigued and lose concentration.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage longerons
Date: Dec 20, 2009
How come you guys are insisting on going through the longerons?
In my post on using the pronged nutplates I specificaly said I wasn't
doing that. I have an extra crossmember under the leading edge.
There's already a 1/8" ply plate there,. Put another one across under
the longerons, or even 1/4" thick if you think you have to. Bolt through
the crossmember and plate. I firmly believe that there should be an
absolute minimum of holes in the longerons. Especialy considering
that those nuts require a 5/16" hole to fit into.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Rambo
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
sure, that would be a great alternative. Like I said, I only offered
the observation for consideration. Another reason I am not using the
pronged nutplates is that when I drilled the bolts through the main spar
and longerons, the hole comes out behind a gusset very close to a joint,
so I cannot get to the back side to back-drill for the nutplate (which
is a larger diameter than the bolt size)
not that anyone else might want to do this, but my plan is to drill a
large hole in the outboard gusset (3/4 or so) and because the fabric is
tight against the side of the fuselage in that area, just glueing the
fabric to the gusset and then cutting out the hole. Than I can use one
of those round pronged hole covers (or even a small aluminum cover and
screws) to hide the hole. That way, I can put nuts on after the
fuselage is covered.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Bressler
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bolting horizontal stab to fuselage
longerons
Gene,
Would it be possible to add a spacer block for the blind nut to sink
into, thus preventing damage to the structural member? This may or may
not be feasible due to physical space limitations, but it may be with
considering. Worst case scenario, you'd have to use a slightly longer
bolt.
I'm not saying this is a good idea. I've never done this. It's
just a suggestion. I'm not an engineer, an A&P, IA, or DAR. I just
have ideas sometimes.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
On Dec 19, 2009, at 6:51 PM, "Gene Rambo" wrote:
at the real risk of ruining what has been a positive response to
my earlier tirade, I would like to make one observation about the below,
although not nearly as strong as my earlier opinions. I was planning on
using the three-pronged nut plates until a friend (who owns an aircraft
restoration business and whose opinion I value greatly) pointed out to
me one day, he said "look at those prongs, wood is composed of long
fibers and when those prongs bite in, they probably cut a good 1/4 of
the fibers in the location" The more I thought about it, I think he is
right. Most of the prongs I have seen are at least 1/4 inch tall, so in
a 1" longeron, we may be reducing the strength at that location by as
much as 1/4. I have decided not to use them, although I still wish I
could. I am just throwing out the observation for everyone's
consideration. (by the way, he has the same objection to using staples
on gussets, but I am NOT going there!!)
Gene
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
12/20/09 19:35:00
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2009
From: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>
Subject: 2009 List of Contributors
Dear Listers,
The 2009 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and its time that I publish this year's List of Contributors. Its
the people on this list that directly make the Email Lists and Forums possible.
Their generous
contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running.
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I also want to thank Bob, Jon, Andy, and John for their generous support through
the supply of great gifts this year!! These guys have some great products and
I encourage you to visit their respective web sites:
Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - www.aeroelectric.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - www.homebuilthelp.com
Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - www.buildersbooks.com
John Caldwell - HowToCrimp - www.howtocrimp.com
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2009 Fund Raiser List of Contributors:
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2009.html
Thanks again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 21, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Gary,
Looks very nice so far. Yes, the mind tends to wander with that chain saw
in your hands for so long. So concentration is a must. How did you find
working with hickory?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 6:48 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru
the chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken
off too much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as
it=99s easy to get fatigued and lose concentration
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 21, 2009
Dan,
All my struts are Hickory, also, so the feel was not unusual. It is plenty
hard, and the grain can be somewhat directional, affecting how I use the
spoke shave. In his book, Alvin Schuster, warns about the eye-choking dust
from a bench grinder and a sanding pad. He wasn't exaggerating, but it sure
cleaned up the saw cuts in a hurry!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
helspersew(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:59 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary,
Looks very nice so far. Yes, the mind tends to wander with that chain saw in
your hands for so long. So concentration is a must. How did you find working
with hickory?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 6:48 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the
chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too
much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as it's easy
to get fatigued and lose concentration.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: ELSA registration
Date: Dec 21, 2009
Gene,
Some believe that an ELSA is easier to sell than an EAB. The buyer of an
ELSA only needs to take a 3 day course and he/she may then do the "Condition
Inspection" and sign it off. The buyer of an EAB will always have to have
an A&P, IA do the inspection; unless the former owner will do it for you.
That is one reason I have my Waiex certified as ELSA,,, and it was easy to
do.
Thanks,
Ray Krause
N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop,
Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 167 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
>
>
> Don, there are no benefits that I see. Even if you didn't build your
> experimental you can still do all the work on it yourself. You just need
> a "Conditional Inspection" performed by any A & P, every year. The up
> side is that an Experimental is much easier to sell than a ELSA. By the
> way, The Avid is a wonderful airplane.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 2:55 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ELSA registration
>
>
>>
>> My Piet is just registered as Experimental. Right now I just fly it
>> within the Sport Pilot guidelines. Which really means I just fly it
>> without a medical versus flying it with a medical. I really don't know
>> of any advantages to trying to get the Avid registered as an ELSA.
>> Anyone else know of any benefits?
>>
>> Don Emch
>> NX899DE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278155#278155
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 08:33:00
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Its looking good Gary. What diameter and pitch are you working for? Doing all the
final smoothing and matching of each blade does look like a lot of work; but
think of the good feeling you will have when done.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 20, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the chainsaw
work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too much
wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as its easy to get fatigued
and lose concentration
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 21, 2009
66/34 or 64/34. It's really not that hard...just exacting. I am finding that
I need to be in the right frame of mind - no distractions, etc...
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Its looking good Gary. What diameter and pitch are you working for? Doing
all the final smoothing and matching of each blade does look like a lot of
work; but think of the good feeling you will have when done.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 20, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the
chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too
much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as its easy
to get fatigued and lose concentration
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2009
From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: progress!
Today was a BIG day here. After a couple of years, we put the finished wings on
the finished fuse of 799B!!
I can't describe how rewarding and exciting it was to see the whole thing together
and pretty much finished, I've never seen the paint scheme all together until
now (except for in my sketches) I'm really pleased with it.
I'm hoping to get all the little tidbits finished this month and get inspected
soon so I can get it broken down and to the airport (it's in my studio right now)
Keep building!!
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: progress!
Date: Dec 21, 2009
photos photos photos!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg<mailto:douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: progress!
>
Today was a BIG day here. After a couple of years, we put the
finished wings on the finished fuse of 799B!!
I can't describe how rewarding and exciting it was to see the whole
thing together and pretty much finished, I've never seen the paint
scheme all together until now (except for in my sketches) I'm really
pleased with it.
I'm hoping to get all the little tidbits finished this month and get
inspected soon so I can get it broken down and to the airport (it's in
my studio right now)
Keep building!!
Douwe
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Re: progress!
Date: Dec 21, 2009
Congrats Douwe! Do you have a picture?
Jack
DAM
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:10 PM, Douwe Blumberg
wrote:
> >
>
> Today was a BIG day here. After a couple of years, we put the
> finished wings on the finished fuse of 799B!!
>
> I can't describe how rewarding and exciting it was to see the whole
> thing together and pretty much finished, I've never seen the paint
> scheme all together until now (except for in my sketches) I'm
> really pleased with it.
>
> I'm hoping to get all the little tidbits finished this month and get
> inspected soon so I can get it broken down and to the airport (it's
> in my studio right now)
>
> Keep building!!
>
> Douwe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 21, 2009
From: Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary,
Is the prop going to be constant speed or ground adjustable? Do you need
to carry the chain saw with you or can you borrow one after you land?
Inquiring minds want to know.
BTW, did you call Dale's about the balancers to see if he would take
fewer in an order for a group discount? I know he had been out of town
last time the topic was discussed. Even if we can't get the discount
I'll plan on shipping a couple up with Jim's so we can share the
shipping costs. Jim, when did you need your balancer?
Great prop Gary. You've got me thoroughly intimidated.
Darrel
> On Dec 20, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the
chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too much
wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as its easy to get
fatigued and lose concentration
>
>
>
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
> (16 ribs down)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Keep us updated on your progress on the prop. It looks like you have a very good
start. I can understand when removing material you can only go back and forth
from blade to blade so many times. Loud noises make me stressed out so I'm not
sure the chain saw is a good way to go for me.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 21, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
66/34 or 64/34. It's really not that hard...just exacting. I am finding that
I need to be in the right frame of mind - no distractions, etc...
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Its looking good Gary. What diameter and pitch are you working for? Doing
all the final smoothing and matching of each blade does look like a lot of
work; but think of the good feeling you will have when done.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 20, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Still a long ways to go, but the good news is that I managed to get thru the
chainsaw work and keep all my digits, and, so far, I have not taken off too
much wood! The final shaping will take longer than I thought, as its easy
to get fatigued and lose concentration
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Alvin Schubert
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: tbyh(at)aol.com
Just a note to point out that it was E. Alvin Schubert (not "Shuster) who
wrote "How I Make Propellers." His first name was actually Edward, but he
always went by Al or Alvin. I grew up in the town where Al lived -- Tremp
ealeau, WI, which is about halfway between La Crosse, WI, and Winona, MN,
along the Mississippi River.
Al was a very bright man and although he was valedictorian of his high sch
ool class (among his "tinkerings" as a teen-ager in the 1930s he built a
generator and wired his folks house) he never got to go to college. I al
ways wondered how far Al would have gone had he had that opportunity. I'm
willing to bet that he would have been one of the fellows working on the
Manhattan Project or the B-29 and later the space program. He was very go
od at math and designed and built his own airplane and, as you all know,
propellers. He also advised and made a couple propellers for Bernard for
his Corvair-powered job -- one of which Bernard called the best propeller
he ever had. I don't know, but it's possible that prop is flying yet toda
y on "The Last Original."
Alvin passed away about 10 years ago and our EAA Chapter still misses him
very much. Al had a homegrown wisdom that was very much in keeping with
Bernard Pietenpol and the fellows of that era. And, by the way, Al appare
ntly planned (or at least considered) to build a Pietenpol because at his
estate sale I purchased the Air Camper plans that Al had purchased from
Bernard in the 1960s (and one of Al's propellers that he had carved for
his own VW-powered "Der Fledermaus" airplane). I am using those plans to
build my Air Camper...someday it will fly! (Right now the fuselage and ta
il feathers are in the basement along with a "pile" of other parts includi
ng a set of Charlie Rubeck wing ribs!)
Happy Holidays and Happy New Year, everyone!
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "G & R Hewitt" <grhewitt(at)globaldial.com>
Subject: Re fitting nut plates
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Re fitting nut plates in various places in my Piet, I have used a lay up of
fibre glass with great success.
The aim is to have a means to prevent the nut plate from pulling thru the
wood & to prevent any movement of the nut plate and also not to degrade the
wood fibres in any way
My method is to lay up several layers of fine cloth to make a thickness of
about .070 or 2MM on a sheet of glass, an area of 6 square inches will make
sufficient for the whole project.
When this has cured, cut into strips slightly wider than the nut plate &
length to suit
Drill hole one size larger than the screw or bolt diameter, attach the nut
plate to the fiber glass then drill the small holes which mount the nut
plate.
Counter sink these holes to allow a small alloy rivet to fit flush with the
shiny surface.
Then rivet the glass to the back of the nut plate.using small countersunk
alloy rivets.
Then drill the wood to the exact size of he bolt , finally use a bead of
glue around the edges of the glass strip (Araldite is fine) take care not to
get glue near the nut plate
This works really well with the floating type of plates which will self
align thru the enlarged hole
This was used to anchor the bolts on the tail plane & also to mount the
aileron hinges.
If this is hard to understand I could try to take pics of the whole thing.
Regards Graham Hewitt
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Web Design
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
I'm looking for some help on redesigning my website www.textors.com
<http://www.textors.com/> . I want to update all the pictures and
resize them so they will load faster. I used Front Page to put it
together. People have told me Front Page is out dated and should not be
used. If anyone can lend a hand with suggested software (free is nice)
or ideas I would really appreciate it. I'm thinking 4 or 5 pages would
be plenty. Go Daddy is currently hosting. Thanks!
Jack
DSM
PS I'm pretty lame when it comes to this stuff, simpler the better.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: wildhorsesracing <wildhorsesracing(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Web Design
I have had good luck with all of the Coffee Cup software - =0Ahttp://www.co
ffeecup.com/=0A=0AIt's cheap and easy!=0A=0A -jim pantas=0A=0A=0Awww.wildho
rsesracing.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jack
T. Textor =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
=0ASent: Tue, December 22, 2009 9:52:27 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Web D
esign=0A=0A =0AI=99m=0Alooking for some help on redesigning my websit
e www.textors.com. I want to update all=0Athe pictures and resize them so
they will load faster. I used Front Page=0Ato put it together. People hav
e told me Front Page is out dated and=0Ashould not be used. If anyone can
lend a hand with suggested software=0A(free is nice) or ideas I would reall
y appreciate it. I=99m thinking=0A4 or 5 pages would be plenty. Go
Daddy is currently hosting. Thanks!=0AJack=0ADSM=0A =0APS =0AI=99m p
retty lame when it comes to this stuff, simpler the better. =0A =0A=0A=0A_
-========================
==0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com>
Subject: Re: Alvin Schubert
Date: Dec 22, 2009
I knew Al when I was a teenager. My Dad and I used to go to his barn on
occasion just to visit. He was a nice man. I remember propellers all
over his barn and he gave me a booklet he wrote about Der Fledermaus (I
still have the booklet). It was a low, polyhedral wing with a 1600 cc
VW, if I remember correctly. Single place and looked a bit like a baby
T-18.
-john-
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
Madison, WI 53718
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
On Dec 22, 2009, at 8:39 AM, tbyh(at)aol.com wrote:
> Just a note to point out that it was E. Alvin Schubert (not "Shuster)
who wrote "How I Make Propellers." His first name was actually Edward,
but he always went by Al or Alvin. I grew up in the town where Al lived
-- Trempealeau, WI, which is about halfway between La Crosse, WI, and
Winona, MN, along the Mississippi River.
>
> Al was a very bright man and although he was valedictorian of his high
school class (among his "tinkerings" as a teen-ager in the 1930s he
built a generator and wired his folks house) he never got to go to
college. I always wondered how far Al would have gone had he had that
opportunity. I'm willing to bet that he would have been one of the
fellows working on the Manhattan Project or the B-29 and later the space
program. He was very good at math and designed and built his own
airplane and, as you all know, propellers. He also advised and made a
couple propellers for Bernard for his Corvair-powered job -- one of
which Bernard called the best propeller he ever had. I don't know, but
it's possible that prop is flying yet today on "The Last Original."
>
> Alvin passed away about 10 years ago and our EAA Chapter still misses
him very much. Al had a homegrown wisdom that was very much in keeping
with Bernard Pietenpol and the fellows of that era. And, by the way, Al
apparently planned (or at least considered) to build a Pietenpol because
at his estate sale I purchased the Air Camper plans that Al had
purchased from Bernard in the 1960s (and one of Al's propellers that he
had carved for his own VW-powered "Der Fledermaus" airplane). I am using
those plans to build my Air Camper...someday it will fly! (Right now the
fuselage and tail feathers are in the basement along with a "pile" of
other parts including a set of Charlie Rubeck wing ribs!)
>
> Happy Holidays and Happy New Year, everyone!
>
> Fred B.
> La Crosse, WI
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Web Design
From: "chase143" <chase143(at)aol.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Hello Jack,
I'm no IT expert, but I manage several websites (pro bono) for friends, church, sports team, etc. Most hosting companies offer the templated sites, and software with price of hosting, and all very easy to use (yes, go daddy, being one). Often using a secondary software is more trouble then it's worth (the simpler the better for me too), so I would recommend bundling the service! I've found www.networksolutions.com to be a little superior to go daddy for several reasons: about the same price, but more of a professional approach, much easier to set up and maintain a site, far less advertising, easier picture management. No sales pitch here, just my 2C.
If I can be of any help at all, feel free to contact me off-line.
Steve
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278575#278575
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
Subject: Web Design
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Jack,
What exactly are you trying to change?I don't see any problem with
using FrontPage. If you're keeping the site simple, you should be
able to do things pretty easily using FrontPage.
I use Microsoft Expressions which replaced FrontPage.
Let me know more specifically what you're trying to do, and might be
able to help get you set up.
Have you considering making the site like a blog? Wordpress is a
great open-source program that is very flexible.
Wayne Bressler Jr.
wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com
Taildraggers, Inc.
taildraggersinc.com
Sent from the phone that made the Blackberry obsolete.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Web Design
From: "ivan.todorovic" <tosha(at)sezampro.rs>
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Jack,
As Wayne said, it is not obvious what you are trying to achieve. Front Page is
outdated, but replacing it won't make your photos load faster. If you are trying
to reduce traffic generated on your site, the best way to do that is to resize
every single photo, you are looking at few hours of work in front of you.
This will have an side-effect that photos will load faster as well.
Best software to do this job is Adobe Photoshop, but it costs several hundreds US$. Best free software capable of doing it with good results is Gimp, http://www.gimp.org/ .
Ivan.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278595#278595
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Web Design
From: Matt Redmond <mdredmond(at)gmail.com>
You might take a look at http://www.fotosizer.com/
It claims to be a free batch image resizer.
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:18 PM, ivan.todorovic wrote:
>
> Jack,
>
> As Wayne said, it is not obvious what you are trying to achieve. Front Page
> is outdated, but replacing it won't make your photos load faster. If you
> are trying to reduce traffic generated on your site, the best way to do that
> is to resize every single photo, you are looking at few hours of work in
> front of you. This will have an side-effect that photos will load faster as
> well.
>
> Best software to do this job is Adobe Photoshop, but it costs several
> hundreds US$. Best free software capable of doing it with good results is
> Gimp, http://www.gimp.org/ .
>
> Ivan.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278595#278595
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Subject: Re: Web Design
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Jack,
Are you wanting to redesign your whole site, or are you happy with the basi
c
setup and just want to update your pictures and manage the sizes?
If you are fine with your basic design, then just worry about updating the
content. If all you are doing is resizing images, maybe cropping some (ligh
t
editing), then there is no need for tools such as Photoshop or GIMP: that's
swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. I would recommend a small, free program
called Irfanview: http://www.irfanview.com/. It's a lightweight image viewe
r
that lets you easily crop and resize your photos. You can even do batch
resizing....you could put all your photos in one folder, and resize all of
them to a given size in one fell swoop. If you want help on how to do so
just let me know. I can put a couple step-by-step videos up on Screencast t
o
walk you through the process.
As far as Frontpage being outdated....well, if you can use the program, and
it will construct webpages that look like you want them to on current
versions of common browsers (Mozilla Firefox, Internet Explorer, Safari),
then there is no need to switch to a new program. If you want to try a more
"modern" program, here is a free WYSIWYG HTML construction alternative:
NVU: http://net2.com/nvu/
Hope that helps....email me offlist if you have more questions or need any
asssitance.
Ryan
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Jack T. Textor
wrote:
> I=92m looking for some help on redesigning my website www.textors.com.
I
> want to update all the pictures and resize them so they will load faster.
I
> used Front Page to put it together. People have told me Front Page is ou
t
> dated and should not be used. If anyone can lend a hand with suggested
> software (free is nice) or ideas I would really appreciate it. I=92m thi
nking
> 4 or 5 pages would be plenty. Go Daddy is currently hosting. Thanks!
>
> Jack
>
> DSM
>
>
> PS I=92m pretty lame when it comes to this stuff, simpler the better.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Web Design
From: "ivan.todorovic" <tosha(at)sezampro.rs>
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Ryan Mueller wrote:
> ... If all you are doing is resizing images, maybe cropping some (light editing),
then there is no need for tools such as Photoshop or GIMP: that's swatting
a fly with a sledgehammer. I would recommend a small, free program called Irfanview...
Well, on this list we have to be opinionated about everything :-)
I would not call these tools sledgehammers, there is a reason people use it. If
Jack managed to make his whole site, he is more than capable to learn them quickly,
and they can do things in a way Jack may yet to discover and find useful.
Although I agree NVU is good idea as alternative to Front Page.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278605#278605
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Web Design
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Ivan,
Sure, we're all entitled to our opinions here, but I think you missed Ryan's point,
which stated specifically "If all you are doing is resizing images, maybe
cropping some (light editing)...".
Photoshop is a great tool, and packed with all sorts of features that Jack (or
anyone else) might find useful ... BUT if the only thing you need to do is resize
or crop some photos, then spending a few hundred dollars on Photoshop would
be akin to using the proverbial sledgehammer on the proverbial fly. It is a
much bigger tool than is necessary to get the (very simple) job done.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278611#278611
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re fitting nut plates
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Not to be a Smart-Alec, but why don't you just put a dab of glue on the tabs of
the nut plate?
Your method seems like a lot of extra work, with basically the same net result.
All the fiberglass plate gives you is a little more surface area for the glue.
When attaching the nutplates for my empennage hinges, I used two tiny little brass
screws (#0 x 1/4" long, I believe) to secure them, and also carefully applied
epoxy. The epoxy is probably overkill, but I won't have any worries about
the screws coming loose. I am NOT concerned about the penetration of the little
wood screws. Then again, I also wouldn't be worried about the use of Tee nuts
either. The advantage of nutplates is that the hole in the wood is only the
size of the bolt, whereas with a Tee nut, the hole in the wood needs to be bigger,
since the threaded portion of the nut is embedded in the wood.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278612#278612
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aw_nuts_371.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Web Design
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Great comments, I've got some thinking to do. Really when it comes down to
it I really jut need to resize and add photos. I have the software for that
and yes it will take some time. Thanks so much to all for the thoughtful
comments!
Jack
DSM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Web Design
I'm looking for some help on redesigning my website www.textors.com
<http://www.textors.com/> . I want to update all the pictures and resize
them so they will load faster. I used Front Page to put it together.
People have told me Front Page is out dated and should not be used. If
anyone can lend a hand with suggested software (free is nice) or ideas I
would really appreciate it. I'm thinking 4 or 5 pages would be plenty. Go
Daddy is currently hosting. Thanks!
Jack
DSM
PS I'm pretty lame when it comes to this stuff, simpler the better.
18:22:00
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Here are the photos of Douwe's airplane.......
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
More pics of Douwe's airplane.....
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 22, 2009
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
Wow,that is beautiful,thanks
________________________________
From: "helspersew(at)aol.com" <helspersew(at)aol.com>
Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 7:09:01 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
Here are the photos of Douwe's airplane.......
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
Date: Dec 23, 2009
Sweeettttt-!!! Man, the brass details... the wood...
leather... smooth tread tires... and those instrument
panels! That is one 'antique' airplane! It will
surely draw the crowds everyplace it goes.
And yes, the official insignia is outstanding.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 23, 2009
Subject: Re: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
good looking bird. Nice job and congrats
John
In a message dated 12/22/2009 7:55:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
helspersew(at)aol.com writes:
Here are the photos of Douwe's airplane.......
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: GPS on Woot.com
Ok, first, let me say woot.com is a "today only or until we're sold out" website
only. Shipping on everything (everything!) is always $5. But don't even bother
checking this out after today (Wednesday, Dec 23) cause' tomorrow it will
probably be Hanna Montana MP3 players or a vacuum cleaner or....whatever....
Anyway, today's there's an interesting GPS that you could probably load a sectional
(or google map) into and you could (I think) watch your course over that...on
the GPS display...pretty neat.
The site shows a satellite picture which might also work for aviation. Probably
worthless for detailed pictures but could work for aviation.
www.woot.com
Bushnell ONIX 200 GPS System with TruView Navigation
$59.99
* + $5 shipping
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: GPS on Woot.com
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2009
I did a Goggle search for the thing and found a web site with customer reviews
that were NOT flattering.
http://www.gpsreview.net/bushnell-onix-200/
Caveat Emptor
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278680#278680
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 23, 2009
She sure looks like a winner , How is the paper work going ? Keep us posted
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278687#278687
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: 799B, Douwe Blumberg's Piet, feast your eyes
Wow! Simply wow. Great job, Douwe!
On a separate note, methinks there's a secret, shadow society of
A-powered Pietenpol builders out there. And I am completely OK with
that! You guys do great work! Keep it up!
Dan
helspersew(at)aol.com wrote:
> Here are the photos of Douwe's airplane.......
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Dec 23, 2009
Holey Moley, Douwe!
Do I see custom-made brass "Pietenpol" signature hubcaps on your wheels?
I do recall seeing photos of your custom "Pietenpol" instrument faces, so I guess
we shouldn't really be surprised.
Nice work.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278762#278762
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hubcap_122.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 23, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
what he said....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church
>Sent: Dec 23, 2009 11:24 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
>
>
>Holey Moley, Douwe!
>Do I see custom-made brass "Pietenpol" signature hubcaps on your wheels?
>I do recall seeing photos of your custom "Pietenpol" instrument faces, so I guess
we shouldn't really be surprised.
>Nice work.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278762#278762
>
>
>Attachments:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/hubcap_122.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "javier" <javcr(at)prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: off topic
Date: Dec 24, 2009
For all Piets comunity
My best wishes for all Piet builders and families on this Christmas.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
Date: Dec 24, 2009
Looks like another award-winner is about to show up at Brodhead.
Congratulations, Douwe. You've been working on this a long time, You've
got to be proud of such a beauty!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
what he said....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church
>Sent: Dec 23, 2009 11:24 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
>
>
>Holey Moley, Douwe!
>Do I see custom-made brass "Pietenpol" signature hubcaps on your wheels?
>I do recall seeing photos of your custom "Pietenpol" instrument faces, so I
guess we shouldn't really be surprised.
>Nice work.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278762#278762
>
>
>Attachments:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com//files/hubcap_122.jpg
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 24, 2009
From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: 799B
Thank you everybody for all the kind words and encouragement, it really is appreciated!
Lowell, she's registered, and I am in contact with the inspector, he says just
give him a week or two notice when I'm ready for inspection. Hoping to get all
the remaining items done in the next six weeks or so so we can get it to the
airport and start the fun and games.
One big lesson learned. I've been keeping the windshields covered since my studio
has a lot of metal dust blowing around which really can scratch the Lexan.
The other day I removed the cover to discover cracks radiating out from a lot
of my screw holes. I figure I didn't make them oversize enough to compensate
for the expansion and contraction due to the freezing nights and warm (heated)
days. I'll have to remake those panels. Make the holes ovesize and don't
tighting your nuts too much, just enough, I think the plexi or lexan should kind
of be "hung" in there, like vinyl siding on a house.
keep building everybody!!
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: 799B
Date: Dec 24, 2009
Good job there, Douwe
On the windshields, I havent had very good rsults with the Acrylic sheets
from Home Depot or the hardware store. I tried them, but they cracked
rather quickly. The product labeled Lexan has been far superior. You were
right on though, leave a tolerance around the screws. I also installed a
rubber cushion washer to lessen stress.
Days are getting longer now. Time to start the Brodhead countdown clock.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:08 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 799B
>
>
> Thank you everybody for all the kind words and encouragement, it really is
> appreciated!
>
> Lowell, she's registered, and I am in contact with the inspector, he says
> just give him a week or two notice when I'm ready for inspection. Hoping
> to get all the remaining items done in the next six weeks or so so we can
> get it to the airport and start the fun and games.
>
> One big lesson learned. I've been keeping the windshields covered since
> my studio has a lot of metal dust blowing around which really can scratch
> the Lexan. The other day I removed the cover to discover cracks radiating
> out from a lot of my screw holes. I figure I didn't make them oversize
> enough to compensate for the expansion and contraction due to the freezing
> nights and warm (heated) days. I'll have to remake those panels. Make
> the holes ovesize and don't tighting your nuts too much, just enough, I
> think the plexi or lexan should kind of be "hung" in there, like vinyl
> siding on a house.
>
> keep building everybody!!
>
> Douwe
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Douwe Blumberg's Piet...Feast your eyes
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Dec 24, 2009
Beautiful work! Love the wood struts and the Jenny style gear. what type of wood
did you you use for the lift struts? What size wheels did you use, and where
did you get the smooth tires? I'm not even close to the point of thinking
about building my wheels yet, but I'd like to go with smooth tires just like
that on mine when I get there...
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers nearly done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278823#278823
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: off topic
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Dec 24, 2009
Wishing a Merry Christmas to all!
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278824#278824
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re fitting nut plates
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Dec 24, 2009
Nicely done, Bill. I can't see any fault with your method. And as far as Tee-nuts
are concerned, I've seen people flatten the prongs out and drill small holes
in the flange for brads or small screws, and use them upside-down just like
the nutplates you show in your photo instead of counter-boring the hole in the
wood and sinking the prongs into the wood. There's obviously more than one
correct way to accomplish this job...
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278825#278825
________________________________________________________________________________
From: B Church <eng(at)canadianrogers.com>
Date: Dec 22, 2009
Subject: Re fitting nut plates
Not to be a Smart-Alec, but why don't you just put a dab of glue on the tab
s of the nut plate?
Seem like a lot of extra work, with basically the same net result. All the
fiberglass plate gives you is a little more surface area for the glue.
When attaching the nutplates for my empennage hinges, I used two tiny littl
e brass screws (#0 x 1/4" long, I believe) to secure them, and also careful
ly applied epoxy. The epoxy is probably overkill, but I won't have any worr
ies about the screws coming loose. I am NOT concerned about the penetration
of the little wood screws. Then again, I also wouldn't be worried about th
e use of Tee nuts either. The advantage of nutplates is that the hole in th
e wood is only the size of the bolt, whereas with a Tee nut, the hole in th
e wood needs to be bigger, since the threaded portion of the nut is embedde
d in the wood.
Bill C.
[cid:890533215@22122009-245A]
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of G & R Hewitt
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re fitting nut plates
Re fitting nut plates in various places in my Piet, I have used a lay up o
f fibre glass with great success.
The aim is to have a means to prevent the nut plate from pulling thru the w
ood & to prevent any movement of the nut plate and also not to degrade the
wood fibres in any way
My method is to lay up several layers of fine cloth to make a thickness of
about .070 or 2MM on a sheet of glass, an area of 6 square inches will make
sufficient for the whole project.
When this has cured, cut into strips slightly wider than the nut plate & le
ngth to suit
Drill hole one size larger than the screw or bolt diameter, attach the nu
t plate to the fiber glass then drill the small holes which mount the nut p
late.
Counter sink these holes to allow a small alloy rivet to fit flush with the
shiny surface.
Then rivet the glass to the back of the nut plate.using small countersunk a
lloy rivets.
Then drill the wood to the exact size of he bolt , finally use a bead of gl
ue around the edges of the glass strip (Araldite is fine) take care not to
get glue near the nut plate
This works really well with the floating type of plates which will self ali
gn thru the enlarged hole
This was used to anchor the bolts on the tail plane & also to mount the ail
eron hinges.
If this is hard to understand I could try to take pics of the whole thing.
Regards Graham Hewitt
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 25, 2009
From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: wood struts on 799B
Billy,
The struts are patterned exactly after Alan Wise' plane which flew with wood struts
for years.
They are a sandwich of Spruce sides with a 1/4" ply center and some hefty ends.
The tires are regular dirt bike tires on some 21" rims with the lugs sanded off.
The newsletter has an article I wrote on tire shaving which tells how I did
it. Very messy, but worth it I think.
D
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wood struts on 799B
From: "ivan.todorovic" <tosha(at)sezampro.rs>
Date: Dec 26, 2009
douweblumberg(at)earthlin wrote:
> ... newsletter has an article I wrote on tire shaving which tells how I did it.
Very messy, but worth it I think.
Where can we find that newsletter?
BTW, beautiful struts!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278888#278888
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 26, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: wood struts on 799B
That would be the Brodhead Pietenpol Association newsletter. You get it
quarterly by becoming a BPA member at http://www.pietenpol.org. Doc and
Dee Mosher are the publisher/editors and the stuff they put in there is
really great. You can request back issues for a small fee. Douwe or
someone on the list can tell you which issue his wheel article is in.
I think the gist of it might be "use a hand grinder with 50 then 100
then 200 grit sanding pads and wear appropriate eye and breathing gear."
ivan.todorovic wrote:
>
>
> douweblumberg(at)earthlin wrote:
>> ... newsletter has an article I wrote on tire shaving which tells how I did
it. Very messy, but worth it I think.
>
>
> Where can we find that newsletter?
>
> BTW, beautiful struts!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278888#278888
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wood struts on 799B
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Dec 26, 2009
Thanks for the info on the struts and wheels Douwe. Good stuff!
Billy McCaskill
Urbana, IL
tailfeathers almost done
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278893#278893
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Fuselage gusset plat
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Hello All,
Not being satisfied with the partially built fuselage I acquired I'm
constructing another. I have the side longerons, struts and braces
completed. For the side gusset plates should I extend them above the top
and bottom longerons 1/8 inch?
Thanks!
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Fuselage gusset plat
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Jack,
No. The turtledeck formers will hide any offset on the top, and both top and
bottom longerons get filler strips between the gussets. Eventually, you will
be slightly rounding all off for a smooth transition around the corner for
the fabric. Besides, even if you do decide that you want the gussets to
overlap, you can do it with the spreader gussets overlapping the side
gussets.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 7:09 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage gusset plat
Hello All,
Not being satisfied with the partially built fuselage I acquired I'm
constructing another. I have the side longerons, struts and braces
completed. For the side gusset plates should I extend them above the top
and bottom longerons 1/8 inch?
Thanks!
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Fuselage gusset plat
Jack,
I am not a builder, but looking at the plans in the Flying and Glider
Manual, it doesn't look like the gussets extend above or below the
longerons - they are flush with the edges.
I don't really see the usefulness of extending them either, since the
goal is to mate the longerons to the cross-braces. I think they'd
unnecessarily stretch the fabric at those points...
My 2 cents (which is really only worth about bupkus since I'm not a
builder),
Dan
Jack wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Not being satisfied with the partially built fuselage I acquired Im
> constructing another. I have the side longerons, struts and braces
> completed. For the side gusset plates should I extend them above the
> top and bottom longerons 1/8 inch?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jack
>
> DSM
>
> *
>
>
> *
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Wedges
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Well while I'm at it.for the fuselage sides are people using wedges on all
joints between gusset plates? Or just on joints forward of the rear seat?
Thanks once again,
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Wedges
Date: Dec 27, 2009
just the forward ones, they are there for the bolts for the struts/gear
fittings.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack<mailto:jack(at)textors.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:55 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wedges
Well while I'm at it.for the fuselage sides are people using wedges on
all joints between gusset plates? Or just on joints forward of the rear
seat?
Thanks once again,
Jack
DSM
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2009
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Extra Uprights in End Ribs
Time to modify the jig and glue up my end ribs. The end ribs call for
extra uprights on Drawing 5.
I am planning on the 3 piece wing so I am assuming that I need to make 6
of the modified end ribs. Correct?
The callout on the plans points to 3 extra uprights but there 5 dashed
in on the rib. Are there 5?
The aft upright that is sketched in crosses the long diagonal between
the rear spar and the aileron upright. Should this upright be two
pieces or is is a single piece on the side of the rib?
1" or 1 1/2" long gussets for all? What about the intersecting upright
at the rear?
My assumptions are 6 ribs with 5 extra uprights. Make the rear one out
of 2 pieces. 1"x1 1/2" gussets on everything except the intersection.
Use a 1 1/2" diamond shape for that one.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: re: WEDGES in fuze gussets
Jack,
Besides what is in the plans for wedges at the fuze gussets, you likely need
to do something both under and behind the pilot's seat, as well, likely incorporating
wedges in gussets and other seatbelt-related hardware. This is a place
that the fuze can break in a hard landing, as the pilot weight puts a shear
point halfway between the aft main gear leg and the tailwheel attach points.
You don't want to drill through the longerons to attach all this stuff, so
wedges and gussets make a lot of sense there.
You may also want to add wedges wherever you have seatbelt or shoulder harness
cables attach points, or lift handles to move the tail around by hand. These
will be at stations behind the passenger seat or near the tail. Of course,
some of these attach points can do double duty.
Tim in central TX
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Wedges
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Just the joints where the landing gear struts and lift struts attach.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:55 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wedges
Well while I'm at it.for the fuselage sides are people using wedges on all
joints between gusset plates? Or just on joints forward of the rear seat?
Thanks once again,
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New Member
From: "Wildman" <scrambler13(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Hi everyone, I am a new member and have a Pietenpol Aerial Biplane. It has been
a very rocky start so far. I bought it and loaded the wings in a U-haul and
the fuselage on a trailer. On the way home a strap broke and the fuselage came
off and was destroyed. I am presently re-building it. This time I am using
4130 chrome molly steel. I have plans, but the supplement plans for the biplane
conversion are missing. If anyone has a set that I can purchase it would be
great.
This is a great site and I am very happy to be here.
Wade from Tennessee
--------
Pietenpol Aerial
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278953#278953
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Happy New Year to All,
So far I have spent 3 weekends on this project. Many thanks to Dan Helsper
and PF Beck!! Before anyone gets too liberal with the congratulations, I am
keenly aware that, until this thing is actually swinging on the end of an
engine, it's nothing more than a potential wall clock, at best!! Still have
the hub to drill out, final sanding and balancing, and varnish.
BTW.What a LOT of filing and sanding!! Another one of these and I can throw
away the Bow-Flex.I'll be looking like Popeye!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey(at)bentoncountycable.net>
Subject: Re: New Member
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Welcome Wade. Where in Tennessee?
Gene
N502R In WINDY Tennessee
a >
> Wade from Tennessee
>
> --------
> Pietenpol Aerial
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278953#278953
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
09:18:00
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 27, 2009
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Gary,
VEEEEEEERRRRRRRRY nice looking prop!!. Very sleek and sensual looking. Don
't tell my wife, but after I was done with mine, I stroked it many times,
and it was almost as exciting as,... well..., you know. I'll bet you hav
e a real sense of satisfaction from this whole experience.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Member
From: "Wildman" <scrambler13(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2009
I live in a little town called Oneida, about 60 miles north of Knoxville.
Wade
--------
Pietenpol Aerial
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278959#278959
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: New Member
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Hi Wade,
Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols, and Pietenpol people.
What engine are you planning on using? Are the wings finished?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wildman
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 6:06 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Member
Hi everyone, I am a new member and have a Pietenpol Aerial Biplane. It has
been a very rocky start so far. I bought it and loaded the wings in a
U-haul and the fuselage on a trailer. On the way home a strap broke and the
fuselage came off and was destroyed. I am presently re-building it. This
time I am using 4130 chrome molly steel. I have plans, but the supplement
plans for the biplane conversion are missing. If anyone has a set that I can
purchase it would be great.
This is a great site and I am very happy to be here.
Wade from Tennessee
--------
Pietenpol Aerial
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278953#278953
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Member
From: "Wildman" <scrambler13(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Wings are finished and painted. I am using a Lycoming 0-290-G engine. I hope to
fly it this summer. I just need to put controls and other components on the fuselage,
cover and paint it.
Wade
--------
Pietenpol Aerial
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278967#278967
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 27, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New Member
There's a nice Pietenpol Air Camper (or was a few years back) at a little airport
south of Knoxville. Belongs to Tom Lester.
Really a nice fellow and worth the trip to see his Air Camper and meet him. The
airport is (you probably already know this..) at Alcoa Hwy and W Governor John
Sevier Hwy.
JM
-----Original Message-----
>From: Wildman <scrambler13(at)hotmail.com>
>Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:16 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New Member
>
>
>I live in a little town called Oneida, about 60 miles north of Knoxville.
>
>Wade
>
>--------
>Pietenpol Aerial
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278959#278959
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary that is a nice looking prop. Looks like you did a nice job of finishing and
shaping it. Are you going to wait for final cut to length until you get
the Corvair fired up? Final balancing and varnishing will give you something
to really look at and enjoy.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 27, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Happy New Year to All,
So far I have spent 3 weekends on this project. Many thanks to Dan Helsper and
PF Beck!! Before anyone gets too liberal with the congratulations, I am keenly
aware that, until this thing is actually swinging on the end of an engine, its
nothing more than a potential wall clock, at best!! Still have the hub to drill
out, final sanding and balancing, and varnish.
BTWWhat a LOT of filing and sanding!! Another one of these and I can throw away
the Bow-FlexIll be looking like Popeye!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 27, 2009
Jim,
Yes, I will leave the length at 66" until I get a chance to fly it (assuming
it lasts that long!). I really hope to fire up the Corvair at the Spring
time Corvair College. How about you? You must be ready, too...
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary that is a nice looking prop. Looks like you did a nice job of
finishing and shaping it. Are you going to wait for final cut to length
until you get the Corvair fired up? Final balancing and varnishing will
give you something to really look at and enjoy.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 27, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Happy New Year to All,
So far I have spent 3 weekends on this project. Many thanks to Dan Helsper
and PF Beck!! Before anyone gets too liberal with the congratulations, I am
keenly aware that, until this thing is actually swinging on the end of an
engine, its nothing more than a potential wall clock, at best!! Still have
the hub to drill out, final sanding and balancing, and varnish.
BTWWhat a LOT of filing and sanding!! Another one of these and I can throw
away the Bow-FlexIll be looking like Popeye!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Member
From: "Wildman" <scrambler13(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 28, 2009
I'm familiar with the airport but didn't know anyone their had an Aircamper. I
will make it a point to stop by and see if I can meet him. Thanks for that info.
Wade
--------
Pietenpol Aerial
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278980#278980
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: New Member
Date: Dec 28, 2009
Wade wrote:
>I am a new member and have a Pietenpol Aerial Biplane.
Welcome to the list, Wade! A lot of great resources here,
but not too many have experience with your biplane version.
Ask away, though... it's really just a Piet with an extra
set of wings.
The ones I have seen and heard of were powered by the O-290
so it sounds like you have the right engine up there. The
only other active Aerial builder that I know of on this list
has an inline ENMA Tigre engine on his. I forget which it
is... there was a 125HP and a 150HP. And as a minor point,
the Aerial is the brainchild of a fellow named Chad Wille,
d/b/a "St. Croix Aircraft", so what you actually have there
is not a "Pietenpol Aerial" but rather a "St. Croix Aerial".
Glad to have you aboard.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2009
From: Tim Willis <timothywillis(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New Member
Wade, glad to hear that you are continuing with the project. Good luck and good
building.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Wildman <scrambler13(at)hotmail.com>
>Sent: Dec 27, 2009 5:06 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Member
>
>
>Hi everyone, I am a new member and have a Pietenpol Aerial Biplane. It has been
a very rocky start so far. I bought it and loaded the wings in a U-haul and
the fuselage on a trailer. On the way home a strap broke and the fuselage came
off and was destroyed. I am presently re-building it. This time I am using
4130 chrome molly steel. I have plans, but the supplement plans for the biplane
conversion are missing. If anyone has a set that I can purchase it would be
great.
>
>This is a great site and I am very happy to be here.
>
>Wade from Tennessee
>
>--------
>Pietenpol Aerial
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=278953#278953
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Dec 28, 2009
Yep, that is indeed a "Cool" prop you've got there.
--------
Mark - working on wings
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279006#279006
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary,
Yes, but I do have to put on the oil sump and oil pan both of which I have. The
engine will then be complete. I have a warp drive prop for the engine now but
have the prop hub and dynamo all mounted so about one weekend to mount parts
and check everything over and run my drill for preoiling and it should fire right
up (I hope).
Jim
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 27, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Jim,
Yes, I will leave the length at 66" until I get a chance to fly it (assuming
it lasts that long!). I really hope to fire up the Corvair at the Spring
time Corvair College. How about you? You must be ready, too...
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary that is a nice looking prop. Looks like you did a nice job of
finishing and shaping it. Are you going to wait for final cut to length
until you get the Corvair fired up? Final balancing and varnishing will
give you something to really look at and enjoy.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 27, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
Happy New Year to All,
So far I have spent 3 weekends on this project. Many thanks to Dan Helsper
and PF Beck!! Before anyone gets too liberal with the congratulations, I am
keenly aware that, until this thing is actually swinging on the end of an
engine, its nothing more than a potential wall clock, at best!! Still have
the hub to drill out, final sanding and balancing, and varnish.
BTWWhat a LOT of filing and sanding!! Another one of these and I can throw
away the Bow-FlexIll be looking like Popeye!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary, I am very impressed with anyone who has/will be taking on the task of
making their own prop. It is something I would have never considered, but
now, it is in the back of my head to try it. When I get to that point, (and
depending on how yours flies...8^)- I may be in contact with you for som
e pointers!- Very, very cool...keep us posted!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 28, 2009
Michael,
Thank you! Of course I am happy to talk about any part of my favorite
subject! For now, though, you can always consult with both Dan Helsper and
PF Beck. PF is currently flying his second home made prop (Corvair powered
Piet), and has, I think, flown two other props on that plane.
pfbeck(at)bellsouth.net, helspersew(at)aol.com.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Gary, I am very impressed with anyone who has/will be taking on the task of
making their own prop. It is something I would have never considered, but
now, it is in the back of my head to try it. When I get to that point, (and
depending on how yours flies...8^) I may be in contact with you for some
pointers! Very, very cool...keep us posted!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Dec 28, 2009
Subject: wedges in fuselage gussets
I also installed triangular blocks of wood between the plywood gussets at the
four motor mount locations. Perhaps that is shown on the plans--- I forget but
they are there on my airframe. Photos at Westcoastpiet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2009
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
I am impressed Gary. I have mahogany glued up but have not figured out how
to get started on the measuring and cutting. Gardiner
--- On Sun, 12/27/09, Gary Boothe wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 6:14 PM
=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AHappy New Year to All, =0A=0A =C2-
=0A=0ASo far I have spent 3 weekends on this project. Many thanks=0Ato Dan
Helsper and PF Beck!! Before anyone gets too liberal with the=0Acongratulat
ions, I am keenly aware that, until this thing is actually swinging=0Aon th
e end of an engine, it=99s nothing more than a potential wall clock,
=0Aat best!! Still have the hub to drill out, final sanding and balancing,
and=0Avarnish. =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0ABTWWhat a LOT of filing and san
ding!! Another one of=0Athese and I can throw away the Bow-FlexI
=99ll be looking like=0APopeye!! =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =0A=0A =C2-
=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0AGary Boothe =0A=0ACool, Ca. =0A=0AP
ietenpol =0A=0AWW Corvair Conversion, mounted =0A=0ATail done,=C2-Fuselag
e=C2-on=0Agear =0A=0A(16 ribs down) =0A=0A=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A
=0A=0A =0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Dec 28, 2009
Have you got Dan's CD? It pretty much walks you thru it. I used the methods
that Dan talks about, and the one's that PF Beck sent to me. PF has a
helpful 2 page review that he'll send you for free, + a case of Johnny
Walker Red (just kidding). Between those 2 guys you will get all the help
you need. You will recognized that I copied PF's profile.
Mahogany should make a beautiful prop! And much easier to work than Hickory.
:-0
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
I am impressed Gary. I have mahogany glued up but have not figured out how
to get started on the measuring and cutting. Gardiner
--- On Sun, 12/27/09, Gary Boothe wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 6:14 PM
Happy New Year to All,
So far I have spent 3 weekends on this project. Many thanks to Dan Helsper
and PF Beck!! Before anyone gets too liberal with the congratulations, I am
keenly aware that, until this thing is actually swinging on the end of an
engine, it's nothing more than a potential wall clock, at best!! Still have
the hub to drill out, final sanding and balancing, and varnish.
BTW.What a LOT of filing and sanding!! Another one of these and I can throw
away the Bow-Flex.I'll be looking like Popeye!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Speaking of Props and Bikinis...
Date: Dec 28, 2009
List,
I knew that would get your attention!
But it was Dan Helsper who brought up the =93sensuality=94 of props. It
got me
to thinking=85.
Not to be coy, as I have received many kudos for even attempting a prop,
but
I was =91unfulfilled=92 with the area at the hub-to-blades, and it
wasn=92t until
Dan=92s remark that I started looking at it in a whole new light. Here,
I=92ve
been thinking of airfoils, pitch lines, strength ' with my head
totally up
in the clouds ' when the answer is right here on Earth=85in the
gutter! That=92s
right, once I got my mind in the gutter, where I do my best thinking, I
realized the problem: My prop was like a bikini model=85with thick
ankles
(not that there=92s anything wrong with thick ankles!), but I was
looking for
something different. After all; take a look at this picture:
Tell me that doesn=92t scream, =93FRENCH BIKINI=94!! As most of you
know, that=92s
Dan=92s prop. That=92s sexy. I don=92t care who you are!
PF Beck has apparantly figured this out, too, but I couldn=92t get a
good read
on the profile of the blades, though I knew I liked the look of his. The
difficulty is knowing how a trace pattern of the profile really
translates
to the overall look of the prop. Trial and error, I guess.
So, with maximum Pucker Factor, I did two things:
1) I put the prop back on the table saw and cut the thickness from 3
=BE=94
to 3 =BC=94! (same thickness as PF=92s=85.just copy success, right?)
2) I slendered up the =91ankles=92. In fact, I removed exactly 1 lb
of
material ' from 10.6 to 9.6 lbs!
Total time on the =91re-figuring=92=85about 3 hours
So here=92s the final results=85who wants to be a bikini judge?
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down=85)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Dec 28, 2009
Subject: Re: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
Just a thot for practice. I won a prop at an EAA chapter raffle for a $2 ticket.
The maker "Otto" made this prop as a practice prop and it has 4 layers. He told
me that the final prop had 8 layers. He also warned me that mine is simply
a wall hanger and should not even be considered for a club!
OT at Paradise airport South of Oklahoma City, is a company that does a lot of
prop work. They havea lot of wood "lasts" (I think that is the correct term for
the model used as a template) for props. Very interesting. I bought my Beechcraft
215 electric prop from the old man who had established the company. His
son ran it when I bought my prop.
Blue Skies and admiration for prop makers. ,
Steve D.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Date: Monday, December 28, 2009 14:21
Subject: RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
> Michael,
>
>
>
> Thank you! Of course I am happy to talk about any part of my favorite
> subject! For now, though, you can always consult with both Dan
> Helsper and
> PF Beck. PF is currently flying his second home made prop (Corvair
> poweredPiet), and has, I think, flown two other props on that plane.
> pfbeck(at)bellsouth.net, helspersew(at)aol.com.
>
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, Ca.
>
> Pietenpol
>
> WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
>
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
>
> (16 ribs down.)
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> MichaelPerez
> Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:57 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Progress from Cool Propeller Co.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gary, I am very impressed with anyone who has/will be taking on
> the task of
> making their own prop. It is something I would have never
> considered, but
> now, it is in the back of my head to try it. When I get to that
> point, (and
> depending on how yours flies...8^) I may be in contact with you
> for some
> pointers! Very, very cool...keep us posted!
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 28, 2009
From: Dave and Connie <dmatt(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Props and Bikinis...
I like it!
Dave
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> List,
>
> I knew that would get your attention!
>
> But it was Dan Helsper who brought up the sensuality of props. It
> got me to thinking.
>
> Not to be coy, as I have received many kudos for even attempting a
> prop, but I was unfulfilled with the area at the hub-to-blades, and
> it wasnt until Dans remark that I started looking at it in a whole
> new light. Here, Ive been thinking of airfoils, pitch lines, strength
> with my head totally up in the clouds when the answer is right
> here on Earthin the gutter! Thats right, once I got my mind in the
> gutter, where I do my best thinking, I realized the problem: My prop
> was like a bikini modelwith thick ankles (not that theres anything
> wrong with thick ankles!), but I was looking for something different.
> After all; take a look at this picture:
>
> Tell me that doesnt scream, FRENCH BIKINI!! As most of you know,
> thats Dans prop. Thats sexy. I dont care who you are!
>
> PF Beck has apparantly figured this out, too, but I couldnt get a
> good read on the profile of the blades, though I knew I liked the look
> of his. The difficulty is knowing how a trace pattern of the profile
> really translates to the overall look of the prop. Trial and error, I
> guess.
>
> So, with maximum Pucker Factor, I did two things:
>
> 1) I put the prop back on the table saw and cut the thickness from 3
> to 3 ! (same thickness as PFs.just copy success, right?)
>
> 2) I slendered up the ankles. In fact, I removed exactly 1 lb of
> material from 10.6 to 9.6 lbs!
>
> Total time on the re-figuringabout 3 hours
>
> So heres the final resultswho wants to be a bikini judge?
>
> Gary Boothe
>
> Cool, Ca.
>
> Pietenpol
>
> WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
>
> Tail done, Fuselage on gear
>
> (16 ribs down)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2009
From: Jim <jimboyer(at)hughes.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Props and Bikinis...
Definitely has more curves to it now. The prop hub to blade junction (waist to
hip) has a nicer curve with a sexy curved (leg) blade.
Jim B.
Jim Boyer
Santa Rosa, CA
Pietenpol on wheels
Tail surfaces done
Wing ribs done
Corvair engine
On Dec 28, 2009, Gary Boothe wrote:
List,
I knew that would get your attention!
But it was Dan Helsper who brought up the sensuality of props. It got me to thinking.
Not to be coy, as I have received many kudos for even attempting a prop, but I
was unfulfilled with the area at the hub-to-blades, and it wasnt until Dans remark
that I started looking at it in a whole new light. Here, Ive been thinking
of airfoils, pitch lines, strength with my head totally up in the clouds when
the answer is right here on Earthin the gutter! Thats right, once I got my
mind in the gutter, where I do my best thinking, I realized the problem: My prop
was like a bikini modelwith thick ankles (not that theres anything wrong with
thick ankles!), but I was looking for something different. After all; take
a look at this picture:
Tell me that doesnt scream, FRENCH BIKINI!! As most of you know, thats Dans prop.
Thats sexy. I dont care who you are!
PF Beck has apparantly figured this out, too, but I couldnt get a good read on
the profile of the blades, though I knew I liked the look of his. The difficulty
is knowing how a trace pattern of the profile really translates to the overall
look of the prop. Trial and error, I guess.
So, with maximum Pucker Factor, I did two things:
1) I put the prop back on the table saw and cut the thickness from 3 to 3 ! (same
thickness as PFs.just copy success, right?)
2) I slendered up the ankles. In fact, I removed exactly 1 lb of material from
10.6 to 9.6 lbs!
Total time on the re-figuringabout 3 hours
So heres the final resultswho wants to be a bikini judge?
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done,Fuselageon gear
(16 ribs down)
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2009
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Props and Bikinis...
Gary, that curved looking, more "sweeping" looking prop in the picture you sent
is exactly what I want! This is looking more and more like a possibility for
me to pursue.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
Subject: brakes
Date: Dec 29, 2009
R3JvdXAsDQoNCiANCg0KQnJha2UgcXVlc3Rpb27igKYuaGFzIGFueW9uZSB1c2VkIGRpc2MgYnJh
a2VzIG9mZiBhIDQtd2hlZWxlciAvQVRWIGZvciB0aGVpciBQaWV0PyAgVGhlIGNhbGlwZXJzIGFy
ZSBhIGxpdHRsZSBsYXJnZXIgYW5kIEnigJltIHdvbmRlcmluZyBhYm91dCB0aGUgZXh0cmEgd2Vp
Z2h0LiAgIFRoYW5rcy4NCg0KIA0KDQpCcmlhbg0KDQpTTEMtVVQNCg0K
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: brakes
From: "TOPGUN" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Dec 29, 2009
Pilot78 wrote:
> Group,
>
> Brake question.has anyone used disc brakes off a 4-wheeler /ATV for their Piet?
The calipers are a little larger and Im wondering about the extra weight. Thanks.
>
> Brian
> SLC-UT
Thats what i am using, the calipers are off of a yamaha banshee. I am going to
make my own disc to fit my wheel hubs. the calipers with pads are less than a
pound ea, comparable to any braking system use on a piet.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279129#279129
________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: wood gear
Date: Dec 29, 2009
Still trying to decide between the wood gear and cub style.
My question about the wood gear is=2C what is the importance of the lower b
lock aiming at the tailwheel? I don't get it. Couldn't it just be straigh
t? Wouldn't that make things simpler to build? I'm not trying to go again
st tradition or originality=2C but I just don't understand why this is impo
rtant. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks=2C
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: wood gear
Date: Dec 29, 2009
I tried to make it with the V blocks parallel to the airpalen centerline. I
could get the angles to fit at the block, or at the lower longeron, but not
both. Then I aligned the block correctly and all the angles fit
simultaneously. You can try it however you want, but that is the only
geometry that will fit.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICHELLE
BRANT
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood gear
Still trying to decide between the wood gear and cub style.
My question about the wood gear is, what is the importance of the lower
block aiming at the tailwheel? I don't get it. Couldn't it just be
straight? Wouldn't that make things simpler to build? I'm not trying to go
against tradition or originality, but I just don't understand why this is
important. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks,
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2009
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: crankcase sealant question A-65
I'm having a hard time finding any Loctite 515, as specified in the TCM
SIL99-2B document to seal my crankcase halves (A-65). Since this is
going in a Pietenpol, I guess I don't have to use exactly what they
specify, but I was wondering what others have used with success, besides
the Permatex #3 Aviation/Loctite 515/silk thread to seal their crankcase
halves.
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 29, 2009
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
For those Piets with Corvairs.....
Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler? If so
where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have some ideas
and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing before I reinvent
everything.
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake manifold.
Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and probably some other
items for paint.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Mike,
Check out http://www.cpc-world.com for some pictures on where I mounted
mine.
Go to "Engine Construction" -> "Engine Cooling".
It worked well for me.
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Wednesday, 30 December 2009 5:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
For those Piets with Corvairs.....
Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler? If
so where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have
some ideas and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing
before I reinvent everything.
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake
manifold.
Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and probably
some other items for paint.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Mike,
Check out http://www.cpc-world.com for some pictures on where I mounted
mine.
Go to "Engine Construction" -> "Engine Cooling".
It worked well for me.
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Wednesday, 30 December 2009 5:28 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
For those Piets with Corvairs.....
Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler? If
so where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have
some ideas and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing
before I reinvent everything.
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake
manifold.
Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and probably
some other items for paint.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: crankcase sealant question A-65
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Hi Ben
I just did a Google search under "Locktite 515" and quite a few sources came
up with that product. My opinion is best to go with manufacture specs.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Charvet" <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 9:57 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: crankcase sealant question A-65
>
> I'm having a hard time finding any Loctite 515, as specified in the TCM
> SIL99-2B document to seal my crankcase halves (A-65). Since this is going
> in a Pietenpol, I guess I don't have to use exactly what they specify, but
> I was wondering what others have used with success, besides the Permatex
> #3 Aviation/Loctite 515/silk thread to seal their crankcase halves.
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: wood gear
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Hi Tom,
My vote goes to the wood landing gear. It vastly improves the airplane's
"ramp appeal".
Jack gave the reason for the lower block angle.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:24 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood gear
Still trying to decide between the wood gear and cub style.
My question about the wood gear is, what is the importance of the
lower block aiming at the tailwheel? I don't get it. Couldn't it just
be straight? Wouldn't that make things simpler to build? I'm not
trying to go against tradition or originality, but I just don't
understand why this is important. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks,
Tom B.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: my last girlfriend before the Pietenpol---- from Russia,
Wit
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Mikee, you're shaking the wrong trees. Find you a nice Yankee girl that knows
her propellers, maybe a nurse...
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279196#279196
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/prop_147.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
This is our installation on the Big Piets. I will post another pic in
greater detail, but you can see some in this pic. There is an extension out
the back of the eyebrow that sends air down thru the oil cooler in the stock
location which keeps everything very simple. 4 of the 6 Big Piets are flying
and some have acculimated about 25 hours. Cooling has not been a concern at
all with this setup.
I'll take a more detailed pic after the holidays.
Barry Davis
NX973BP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:28 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
For those Piets with Corvairs.....
Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler? If
so where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have
some ideas and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing
before I reinvent everything.
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake
manifold.
Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and probably
some other items for paint.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2009
You asked for *remote* oil cooler installations, right? Here's what William Wynne
had on his Piet.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279207#279207
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/wwvair11_148.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Subject: Re: crankcase sealant question A-65
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Ben,
I would recommend getting it from McMaster Carr....you have to pay shipping
as opposed to if you found it locally, but the time saved in searching for
it will probably be worth a couple bucks. I picked up some Loctite 620
(could not find it locally) from them a little while back for the Corvair.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
...and search for 'loctite 515'. Three sizes available. Have a good day,
Ryan
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Ben Charvet wrote:
>
> I'm having a hard time finding any Loctite 515, as specified in the TCM
> SIL99-2B document to seal my crankcase halves (A-65). Since this is going
> in a Pietenpol, I guess I don't have to use exactly what they specify, but I
> was wondering what others have used with success, besides the Permatex #3
> Aviation/Loctite 515/silk thread to seal their crankcase halves.
>
> Ben Charvet
> Mims, Fl
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Barry,
That is a fantastically clean engine installation! Congrats. Did you
guys make the eyebrows?
Jeff
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: my last girlfriend before the Pietenpol---- from Russia,
Wi
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Dan: like Mike, you're shaking the wrong trees ;o)
Anyway, back in better times, there was more left to the imagination and it made
daydreaming a lot more pleasant. Now I'll bet if you use your imagination you'll
do just fine figuring out all about the tyres, brakes, flying wires, and
other details of that Camel.
And don't worry about that propeller blade being in too close a proximity to the
lovely lady's hinder parts. She'll move when the pilot shouts 'CLEAR PROP!'
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279217#279217
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Yep, they have the wire rolled in on the edges. Not really very hard to do.
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Barry,
That is a fantastically clean engine installation! Congrats. Did you guys
make the eyebrows?
Jeff
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Barry,
Can you tell us how, or where, to find info on rolling wire into the edges?
Thanks for the pic. As you see, I have more to do...
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Davis
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:02 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Yep, they have the wire rolled in on the edges. Not really very hard to do.
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Barry,
That is a fantastically clean engine installation! Congrats. Did you guys
make the eyebrows?
Jeff
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Is there a write-up somewhere on how to make them with the wire
rolled in the edges?
>
>Yep, they have the wire rolled in on the edges. Not really very hard to do.
>Barry
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
I agree the engine looks great Barry. Do you have any cowling pics of your plane?
I'd like to see some pics of how you did the cowling with the corvair and
scoops. My plan has always been to remote mount the oil cooler (maybe under
the engine) and thus I've made some cooling scoops already like you with the wired
edge and all. (you're right it's not that hard to do-but it is easier with
the right tools.)
A big thank you to everyone who has responded to my call for assistance. If anyone
comes up with other pics or ideas or remote mounted oil coolers or corvair
cowls with the scoops, send them my way.
Thanks
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
(going to go help my father-in-law work on his RV8A today, but I hope to get back
in time to get a little Piet work in today)
________________________________
From: Barry Davis <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 8:01:44 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Yep, they have the wire rolled in on the edges. Not really very hard to do.
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Barry,
That is a fantastically clean engine installation! Congrats. Did you guys
make the eyebrows?
Jeff
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
I don't know what Barry did, but I used my bead roller to start the roll, put the
wire in and then used the bead roller to continue the roll around the wire.
The last bit was some hammer forming. I did try it with just a hammer and it
can be done, it's just more work.
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
________________________________
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 8:15:24 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Is there a write-up somewhere on how to make them with the wire
rolled in the edges?
>
>Yep, they have the wire rolled in on the edges. Not really very hard to do.
>Barry
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Marc Dumay" <captmarcus(at)sympatico.ca>
Subject: Centre wing section & fuel tank
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Fellow builders and mentors, Happy Holidays
What thickness of plywood is being used on the sides of the ribs on the top
centre section and bottom, holding the fuel tank?
Any advantages or cons between making an aluminum tank or fibreglass one?
Excluding the talents of the fabricator.
Would you hold more fuel or less with one over the other?
Drain fittings and fill connections, are they problem free over time in a
fibreglass tank?
Those of you, who make your control horns out of one piece instead of two
welded together, what thickness of 4130 are you using?
Is it necessary to roll the edges, or the thickness takes all into account?
Any suggestions on part # and supplier that are being used for bearings on
the bell crank and main control tubing?
Does the use of bearings, instead of the fabricated ones from the Piet
drawing's, give you a smoother feel for the flight controls?
I have read that stainless bolts are ill advised/prohibited. Unable so far
to get AN flush head screws long enough, for bolt through, for the hinges on
the tail surfaces. We bought those great aluminum hinges in Broadhead. What
are fellow builders using for this application?
In the event of a mishap, I'm concerned of the area to locate a tie down
point for seatbelts. Is there an engineering point of view, concerning
height, angle, distance, load factor?
Don't want to have a cable back to the tail that might act as a strangle
hold on the Pilot in an accident. Perhaps if the fuselage was to break up
that bad, the seat belt would be the lease of an issue. LOL
Well, Thank You in advance for any advice!
Happy New Years & Blue Skies
Marc Dumay
Chatham,On
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Mike,
Does the bead rolling happen before bending the eyebrow? Did you use welding
rod as wire?
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
I don't know what Barry did, but I used my bead roller to start the roll,
put the wire in and then used the bead roller to continue the roll around
the wire. The last bit was some hammer forming. I did try it with just a
hammer and it can be done, it's just more work.
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
_____
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 8:15:24 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Centre wing section & fuel tank
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Marc,
My center section is built (more or less) to plans, with 1/8" plywood on the
bottom and sides of ribs. One of the few changes I made was to push the ribs
outboard as far as they would go, gaining room for a couple more gallons.
I don't have experience with fiberglass, nor have I built the tank, yet, so
I'll someone else chime in on that.
I agree with you about the seat belts and shoulder harness. To me, the seat
belt needs to hold you in in rough air, and the occasional, mis-managed roll
or loop. Both need to keep your head out of the instrument panel and
supported in case of a nose-over, etc. Keeping in mind, that, no matter what
system you devise, it's still, after all, a wooden structure.
Added to my fuselage, just under the pilot's seat, are oak blocks, faced
with 1/8" plywood and epoxied to the sides and framing members. The seatbelt
attach fits thru a slot in the sides of the seat and is thru-bolted with
5/16" bolts. A similar set up attaches the pilot's harness at the two
corners of the tray.
As you say, if the fuse breaks up that bad, I have more to worry about.
After slotting for the Vi Kapler hinges, I epoxied the hinges in place and
attached with stainless, flathead screws and fibered lock nuts. Yes, I used
stainless! Are they as strong as their AN counterparts? I doubt it, but to
what degree? If those things rip out, I'm probably in an inverted spin and
headed for eternal Pietenpol flying in the Here After!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marc Dumay
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Centre wing section & fuel tank
Fellow builders and mentors, Happy Holidays
What thickness of plywood is being used on the sides of the ribs on the top
centre section and bottom, holding the fuel tank?
Any advantages or cons between making an aluminum tank or fibreglass one?
Excluding the talents of the fabricator.
Would you hold more fuel or less with one over the other?
Drain fittings and fill connections, are they problem free over time in a
fibreglass tank?
Those of you, who make your control horns out of one piece instead of two
welded together, what thickness of 4130 are you using?
Is it necessary to roll the edges, or the thickness takes all into account?
Any suggestions on part # and supplier that are being used for bearings on
the bell crank and main control tubing?
Does the use of bearings, instead of the fabricated ones from the Piet
drawing's, give you a smoother feel for the flight controls?
I have read that stainless bolts are ill advised/prohibited. Unable so far
to get AN flush head screws long enough, for bolt through, for the hinges on
the tail surfaces. We bought those great aluminum hinges in Broadhead. What
are fellow builders using for this application?
In the event of a mishap, I'm concerned of the area to locate a tie down
point for seatbelts. Is there an engineering point of view, concerning
height, angle, distance, load factor?
Don't want to have a cable back to the tail that might act as a strangle
hold on the Pilot in an accident. Perhaps if the fuselage was to break up
that bad, the seat belt would be the lease of an issue. LOL
Well, Thank You in advance for any advice!
Happy New Years & Blue Skies
Marc Dumay
Chatham,On
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Hope my sketch will help. (see attachment) I will not be near a computer
until Teusday next week, so if you have any questions, I can reply then.
Happy New Year to ALL
Barry Davis
NX973BP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Is there a write-up somewhere on how to make them with the wire rolled in
the edges?
>-->
>
>Yep, they have the wire rolled in on the edges. Not really very hard to do.
>Barry
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Looks nice Barry, did you use the 12 plate stock coolers?
Rick
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Barry Davis wrote:
> This is our installation on the Big Piets. I will post another pic in
> greater detail, but you can see some in this pic. There is an extension out
> the back of the eyebrow that sends air down thru the oil cooler in the stock
> location which keeps everything very simple. 4 of the 6 Big Piets are flying
> and some have acculimated about 25 hours. Cooling has not been a concern at
> all with this setup.
> I'll take a more detailed pic after the holidays.
> Barry Davis
> NX973BP
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Groah
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:28 AM
>
> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
>
>
> For those Piets with Corvairs.....
>
> Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler? If
> so where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have
> some ideas and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing
> before I reinvent everything.
>
> Mike Groah
> Tulare CA
>
> Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake
> manifold.
> Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and probably
> some other items for paint.
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.howtocrimp.com">www.howtocrimp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Subject: Center section covering
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
When covering the bottom of your center section did you glue the fabric to
the entire plywood surface and end ribs or just to the end ribs?
thanks
rick
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Fuselage Gussets
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Working on the fuselage sides and have glued the rear six gussets (top and
bottom) on the outside. Just want to be sure I should glue the rear gussets
on the inside before joining sides with the horizontal cross members. IE,
the cross members will butt up against the inside gussets.
Thanks,
Jack
DSM
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Fuselage Gussets
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Boy, Jack- it sure looks like it to me. The note on
the side view says "gusset plates on both sides of
longeron", which means the joints are trapped between
gussets both inside and outside. That would mean that
the crosspieces would butt up against the inside
gussets unless you notched the gussets to allow the
crosspieces to butt against the longerons directly. And
that may be the answer... notch the inside gussets so
that the crosspieces hit solid wood and not plywood.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Center section covering
Date: Dec 30, 2009
Rick;
Per the Poly-Fiber covering manual, where the
fabric goes on the butt rib it should be cemented
but on the rest of it, not. Pg. 18 of the
manual, dealing with wing covering (but it gets
more general), says "Brush two coats of thinned
Poly-Brush onto the leading edge to provide a
"bedding" that will help adhesion and reduce the
possibility of pinholes in the finish coat.
Actually, all large metal, wood, or fiberglass
parts that will be covered with fabric should get
these two coats of Poly-Brush."
After the fabric goes over those two dried coats
and you start to wet it out with the Poly-Brush
over the fabric, it will soften the underlying
coats and adhere the fabric to the wood. But as
I read the manual, the part that overlaps the
butt ribs should be cemented down with Poly-Tak.
If you're using the equivalent Stewart system,
same thing should apply.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: wood gear
Date: Dec 30, 2009
The lower block IS straight as you suggest, it only points at the
tailwheel because of the geometry of the gear.
It is easier to see once you start it than to describe, but the side vee
pieces are on a flat plane, as is the block. The block is parallel with
the ground and square with it when the aircraft is sitting three-point,
and points inward and aft because the rear leg of the gear is shorter
than the forward. Again, it is easier to see once you start on it. You
do not have to do anything to it to make it point at the tailwheel.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT<mailto:tmbrant(at)msn.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood gear
Still trying to decide between the wood gear and cub style.
My question about the wood gear is, what is the importance of the
lower block aiming at the tailwheel? I don't get it. Couldn't it just
be straight? Wouldn't that make things simpler to build? I'm not
trying to go against tradition or originality, but I just don't
understand why this is important. Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks,
Tom B.
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Mike,
My Piet variant had a second Corvair oil cooler mounted to the firewall
with a 2" SCAT tube run to it, in addition to the stock oil cooler on
the engine. Never had an excessive oil temp with that set-up and it was
easy to plumb.
Darrel Jones
Sonoma, CA
Michael Groah wrote:
>
> For those Piets with Corvairs.....
>
> Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil
> cooler? If so where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air
> to it? I have some ideas and concept sketches but I figured I'd see
> what others are doing before I reinvent everything.
>
> Mike Groah
> Tulare CA
>
> Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake
> manifold.
> Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and
> probably some other items for paint.
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: Fuselage Gussets
I looked at that on the plans in the Flying and Glider Manual, too, and
see what you see. I would be hesitant to notch out the gusset so the
cross members would sit flush against the longerons - I think that would
severely compromise the structure. Either the cross pieces butt up
against the gusset OR (and I think I inferred this from one of Jack's or
Gene's comments) the gussets go on the outside of the fuselage and thin
stringers are applied to the outside of the longerons to account for the
extra material at the cross piece/longeron joints.
Again, the same warning as before - my opinion is worth bupkus since I'm
not a builder (and I haven't been out to the airport for a couple of weeks).
Dan
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
> Boy, Jack- it sure looks like it to me. The note on
> the side view says "gusset plates on both sides of
> longeron", which means the joints are trapped between
> gussets both inside and outside. That would mean that
> the crosspieces would butt up against the inside
> gussets unless you notched the gussets to allow the
> crosspieces to butt against the longerons directly. And
> that may be the answer... notch the inside gussets so
> that the crosspieces hit solid wood and not plywood.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Yes we used welding rod for the wire since it was handy and a nice straight
piece to start with. We formed the edge first and then curved the panel i
nto the scoop shape. =0A=0AIf you have a bead roller then the process is p
retty quick. You just start the roll with a narrow die, put the wire in an
d then use the die to work the metal over the wire in stages until it's all
the way around the wire. You can do the same with a pair of pliers and a
hammer. Use some vice grips to keep the wire in position and then start th
e metal over the wire with the pliers and work it around the wire with the
hammer. Either will give you the same results. I just found it faster an
d easier since I had a Pexto bead roller on hand to use it. It is nice to h
ave tools!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.
com=0ASent: Wed, December 30, 2009 9:17:16 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List
: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?=0A=0A =0AMike,=0A =0ADoes the bead rol
ling happen before=0Abending the eyebrow? Did you use welding rod as wire?
=0A =0AGary Boothe=0ACool, Ca.=0APietenpol=0AWW Corvair Conversion,=0Amount
ed=0ATail=0Adone, Fuselage on gear=0A(16 ribs down)=0A=0A_________
_______________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.co
m=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah=0ASent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009=0A9:04 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@
matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List:=0ACorvair Piet Oil Cooler loca
tions?=0A =0AI don't know what Barry did, but I used my bead roller to star
t the=0Aroll, put the wire in and then used the bead roller to continue the
roll around=0Athe wire. The last bit was some hammer forming. I did try
it with=0Ajust a hammer and it can be done, it's just more work. =0A=0AMike
Groah=0ATulare CA=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:Jef
f Boatright=0A=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent
: Wed, December 30, 2009=0A8:15:24 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List:=0ACorv
air Piet Oil Cooler locations?=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A =0Awww.aeroelectric.co
m=0Awww.homebuilthelp.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Li
=========================0A
==================0A=0A=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 30, 2009
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Thanks Darrel.
I think what I'm going to do is mount an oil cooler under the engine with an opening
directing air into it. This should work out to be above and forward of
the carb air inlet. Peter Johnson did something similar, but I will tuck mine
further back so it's inside the cowling more. I guess I won't know for sure
how it will all work out until I get to work on the cowling. That should happen
in the next month or two. I'll send pics when that starts to take shape.
________________________________
From: Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com>
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 7:55:48 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Mike,
My Piet variant had a second Corvair oil cooler mounted to the firewall with a
2" SCAT tube run to it, in addition to the stock oil cooler on the engine. Never
had an excessive oil temp with that set-up and it was easy to plumb.
Darrel Jones
Sonoma, CA
Michael Groah wrote:
>
> For those Piets with Corvairs.....
> Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler? If so
where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have some ideas
and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing before I
reinvent everything.
> Mike Groah
> Tulare CA
>
> Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake manifold.
Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops, intake, battery box, and probably some
other items for paint.
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Mike,
I used a standard Earls cooler. You may be able to get a longer, narrower
one that will have the same area but less cowling intrusion.
Cheers
Peter
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Groah
Sent: Thursday, 31 December 2009 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Thanks Darrel.
I think what I'm going to do is mount an oil cooler under the engine with
an opening directing air into it. This should work out to be above and
forward of the carb air inlet. Peter Johnson did something similar, but I
will tuck mine further back so it's inside the cowling more. I guess I
won't know for sure how it will all work out until I get to work on the
cowling. That should happen in the next month or two. I'll send pics when
that starts to take shape.
_____
From: Darrel Jones <wd6bor(at)vom.com>
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 7:55:48 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Piet Oil Cooler locations?
Mike,
My Piet variant had a second Corvair oil cooler mounted to the firewall with
a 2" SCAT tube run to it, in addition to the stock oil cooler on the engine.
Never had an excessive oil temp with that set-up and it was easy to plumb.
Darrel Jones
Sonoma, CA
Michael Groah wrote:
>
> For those Piets with Corvairs.....
> Have any of you Corvair powered Pieters remote mounted your oil cooler?
If so where did you put it and how did you mount it/duct air to it? I have
some ideas and concept sketches but I figured I'd see what others are doing
before I reinvent everything.
> Mike Groah
> Tulare CA
>
> Sprayed a coat of clear on my cockpit today and welded up my intake
manifold. Tomorrow: Prep engine cooling scoops,
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Fuselage Gussets
Date: Dec 31, 2009
The sides are built first with gussets on both sides. When they are
stood up and the cross pieces installed, they butt up against the inside
gussets and are held in place by their own gussets. There is absolutely
nothing wrong with them butting against the gussets. You would gain
nothing by notching the gusset, and would instead weaken the gusset
which is what is holding the airplane together in the first place. The
butt joint is nothing, there is no strength there, you could probably
not even glue the butt joint, just the gussets.
There is a separate but related discussion going on here about
overlapping the gussets. It won't show up or make sense until you start
installing small strips between the gussets on the corners of the
longerons (for appearance sake as the fabric goes around the outside
corners of the longerons) but ONE of the gussets should extend out to
the outside edge of the other, doesn't matter if the side or bottom one
is it (I think easier to make bottom gusset extend), but if one of the
gussets doesn't extend over the other, you have an inside corner the
same thickness as the gussets to deal with when installing filler
strips.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Yocum<mailto:yocum(at)fnal.gov>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage Gussets
>
I looked at that on the plans in the Flying and Glider Manual, too,
and
see what you see. I would be hesitant to notch out the gusset so the
cross members would sit flush against the longerons - I think that
would
severely compromise the structure. Either the cross pieces butt up
against the gusset OR (and I think I inferred this from one of Jack's
or
Gene's comments) the gussets go on the outside of the fuselage and
thin
stringers are applied to the outside of the longerons to account for
the
extra material at the cross piece/longeron joints.
Again, the same warning as before - my opinion is worth bupkus since
I'm
not a builder (and I haven't been out to the airport for a couple of
weeks).
Dan
Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
>
> Boy, Jack- it sure looks like it to me. The note on
> the side view says "gusset plates on both sides of
> longeron", which means the joints are trapped between
> gussets both inside and outside. That would mean that
> the crosspieces would butt up against the inside
> gussets unless you notched the gussets to allow the
> crosspieces to butt against the longerons directly. And
> that may be the answer... notch the inside gussets so
> that the crosspieces hit solid wood and not plywood.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net>
>
>
>
>
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum(at)fnal.gov,
http://fermigrid.fnal.gov>
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com/>
www.buildersbooks.com<http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
www.homebuilthelp.com<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Gussets
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2009
OK Gene, I get your point about the butt joint being pretty much nothing for the
strength of the joint. So about the strips at the corners, see the sketches...
is this what you're talking about, to make smooth corners for the fabric to
wrap around the full length of the longerons, including at the framing member
joints?
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279390#279390
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gusset2_187.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gusset1_169.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: snag time at buildapalooza
Goals for this period were landing gear installation, construct center
section structure and begin hardware mounting.
As such I have hit snags in all three categories:
Wooden gear mount angles don't seem to line up exactly with the lower
block bracket at the proper locations such that the gear legs are situated at
the ash cross members. Not too certain just how to make that adjustment at
the moment without damaging the legs. Still working on figuring that one out
Center section structure built and still trying to decide to go cut out or
flop, progress hauled there for decision
Wing strut hardware mounting, trying to locate mounting point on wing
spars. Drawing shows a 79 inch distance from the spar to center section joint to
the flying strut location. I built the 3 piece routed spar wing on drawing
page 5 having no hardware mounting location that I have been able to
locate. Drawing page for the supplemental 3 piece wing by V.J Kapler is showing
a 79 inch dimension which I can only surmise is the strut connection center
hole.
Now for the question: on the long wing version listed on DWG page 5 where
does the wing strut mount? what is the measurement from the spar root
connection to the center hole of the hardware? Does anyone have a reliable
dimension? I would have to hate trying to assemble the wing section to the center
section and see where the strut joint falls at the spar to figure it out.
What am I missing, other than my buildabapooza goals please advise.
Thanks
John
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2009
John; are the wing struts already fabricated then, with both ends attached and
welded? In that case, you might be stuck with making the wing strut attach fittings
fit the length of your struts but that sure isn't the easy way to do it.
The struts should be made to the length needed to put the wings in proper geometry
after the wings are all complete and on the airplane for fitting, with
the final adjustment made using the fork attach fitting that threads into the
bottom end of the struts. There isn't a whole lot of adjustment available there
and it's only used for final rigging, not for taking up an inch or two of
strut length.
On the flop vs. cutout issue, they both have their pros and cons but I like the
little extra bit of overhead cover that the flop on 41CC provides while others
prefer the little bit of extra overhead visibility that a cutout provides.
Less filling... more taste.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279403#279403
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
The struts are cut to length with no fittings built yet. The flying struts
are laminated wood ash and black walnut with metal imbedded at each end and
at off center for fitting mount holes and jury struts. Which I didn't even
begin looking for their (jury strut) mounting positions on the drawings
but I am pretty certain those locations will be another head scratcher.
In a message dated 12/31/2009 10:33:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "taildrags"
John; are the wing struts already fabricated then, with both ends attached
and welded? In that case, you might be stuck with making the wing strut
attach fittings fit the length of your struts but that sure isn't the easy
way to do it. The struts should be made to the length needed to put the
wings in proper geometry after the wings are all complete and on the airplane
for fitting, with the final adjustment made using the fork attach fitting
that threads into the bottom end of the struts. There isn't a whole lot of
adjustment available there and it's only used for final rigging, not for
taking up an inch or two of strut length.
On the flop vs. cutout issue, they both have their pros and cons but I
like the little extra bit of overhead cover that the flop on 41CC provides
while others prefer the little bit of extra overhead visibility that a cutout
provides. Less filling... more taste.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279403#279403
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
taildrags wrote:
>
> On the flop vs. cutout issue, they both have their pros and cons but I like the
little extra bit of overhead cover that the flop on 41CC provides while others
prefer the little bit of extra overhead visibility that a cutout provides.
Less filling... more taste.
>
I like the extra visibility of the cut-out on N8031. Up here in the
Midwest the sun feels pretty good when it's cooler and windier at
altitude. Down there in the sunbelt, I'm sure the extra shade helps.
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
Fermilab 630.840.6509
yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2009
John; on jury strut locations, it has been discussed on this list before and the
consensus is that they should NOT be located at the midpoint of the lift struts
but offset a bit to one side or the other in order to reduce the possibility
of setting up a harmonic vibration in the struts. So the best thing to do
is drop a string down from a couple of ribs to where it intersects the strut,
pick one that places the jury strut attachment away from the midpoint of the lift
struts, and use that. No magic involved. I don't believe you will find dimensions
given for jury struts on any plans that you have. There are some very
nice details for different ways to attach the jury struts to the lift struts
but since your lift struts are wood, you'll need to work out something different
than most of the details I've seen. Probably the best thing would be to
bend some light gauge metal strap to the airfoil shape of your struts in a clamping
fashion, holding the jury strut members at the clamping point with a bolt.
'Course I guess you could also do what Don Emch and others have done if you're
willing to drill through your lift struts like this:
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279412#279412
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
yup wood has metal imbedded at a location not at the mid point, slightly
off the mid point for just that purpose ( I jumped all over that one when it
came around). I suspect that time is growing short and that after I get the
legs on her shell have to move outside or to a hangar for trial fits. I
sure am dreading the expense part of that phase. But there is only so much
one can accomplish working in the subterranean shop. Being the ultimate
cellar dweller of the aeroplane building community and all.
But no hints as far as a hardware mounting location or dimension from the
plans as to where the wing strut connects to the spar?
Also need the Michael Cuy drawing of the strut to fuse mounting hardware
design he came up with too.
John
In a message dated 12/31/2009 11:09:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Don%20Emch/Brodhead__20070720_149.JPG
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
John,
This?:
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/Piet_landing_gear_fitting_sketch_on_fuselage.jpg
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:20 AM, wrote:
>
>
> Also need the Michael Cuy drawing of the strut to fuse mounting hardware
> design he came up with too.
>
> John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
Probably the best thing would be to bend some light gauge metal strap to the airfoil
shape of your struts in a clamping fashion, holding the jury strut members
at the!
clamping point with a bolt.
Maybe something like the attached.(?) I just cut a thin slot in the jury strut
and slipped it down over the thin strap and will drill a hole through the wood
and fitting to bolt it all together, nice and simple....
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Dec 31, 2009
On both the one piece and 3-piece wing drawings only the center hole of the strut
fitting is shown with a dimension.
On the 3-piece wing the center hole for the wing strut fitting is 79 inches FROM
THE END OF THE WING SPAR.
On the One piece wing the center hole for the wing strut fitting is measured FROM
THE CENTER STRUT FITTING and is 81 7/8 inches from it.
Dont know what you mean by Long Wing version, unless you mean the one piece wing.
If so see above.
Jury struts are not shown on any of the plans but should be used. Dont put them
mid span of the flying strut. They should be off center. Most seem to be offset
toward the wing tip.
As for the landing gear, I am really confused about your problem. I guess I just
dont understand what youre trying to say.
Hopefully youre not making parts based on the plans then thinking they will fit.
The plans and your ability to build to them are not that accurate. Always
check to see what you need the part to be before building it or you too will have
a box of parts that dont fit quite right. I keep thinking I should build
a wind chime out of mine.
Chris
--------
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279430#279430
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
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CgoKCgo
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I agonized over whether to flop or not to flop also. Ended up building a
hybrid flop with a cutout in it (best of both worlds?). But if I was going
to do it again I would just go with a round cutout and a handle as Mike C.
and Jack P. have done.
rick
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:16 AM, wrote:
> Goals for this period were landing gear installation, construct center
> section structure and begin hardware mounting.
> v
> As such I have hit snags in all three categories:
>
> Wooden gear mount angles don't seem to line up exactly with the lower block
> bracket at the proper locations such that the gear legs are situated at the
> ash cross members. Not too certain just how to make that adjustment at the
> moment without damaging the legs. Still working on figuring that one out
>
> Center section structure built and still trying to decide to go cut out or
> flop, progress hauled there for decision
>
> Wing strut hardware mounting, trying to locate mounting point on wing
> spars. Drawing shows a 79 inch distance from the spar to center section
> joint to the flying strut location. I built the 3 piece routed spar wing on
> drawing page 5 having no hardware mounting location that I have been able to
> locate. Drawing page for the supplemental 3 piece wing by V.J Kapler is
> showing a 79 inch dimension which I can only surmise is the strut connection
> center hole.
>
> Now for the question: on the long wing version listed on DWG page 5 where
> does the wing strut mount? what is the measurement from the spar root
> connection to the center hole of the hardware? Does anyone have a reliable
> dimension? I would have to hate trying to assemble the wing section to the
> center section and see where the strut joint falls at the spar to figure it
> out.
>
> What am I missing, other than my buildabapooza goals please advise.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
> I like the extra visibility of the cut-out on N8031. Up here in the
> Midwest the sun feels pretty good when it's cooler and windier at altitude.
> Down there in the sunbelt, I'm sure the extra shade helps.
>
>
Your reply gave me an idea Dan, the rear area of the center section where
the flop would go could be like the moon-roof opening in your car, you
should be able to open and close the area whenever you want in flight like a
sunroof for sun, shade, visibility, etc. How about a roll-top desk cover
kind of thing? (No I am not really serious ;)
rick
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
Rick,
Beautiful work. If all of your agonized compromises come out this
beautiful, you should hire out as a home improvement consultant. Hey,
maybe that's what your day job is already! :)
Jeff
--
Jeff Boatright
"Now let's think about this..."
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Thanks Jeff, I am actually a computer geek consultant, and unfortunately my
flop looks better than my software ;)
rick
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote:
>
> Rick,
>
> Beautiful work. If all of your agonized compromises come out this
> beautiful, you should hire out as a home improvement consultant. Hey, maybe
> that's what your day job is already! :)
>
> Jeff
> --
>
> Jeff Boatright
> "Now let's think about this..."
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Jeff; I was going to say the same thing about the beautiful workmanship on Rick's
airplane until I noticed that he had a little problem with the first set of
holes on the piano hinges. One set of screws hit right on a rib and he had to
make new holes, offset to the other sides of the ribs. Tsk, tsk... this ruins
his chances at a Lindy Award or Golden Hammer for sure ;o)
He will be very welcome in my club, though. If any of you remember the old "Exit,
Laughing" column that Ed Zern wrote for Field & Stream magazine many years
ago, he concocted the Madison Avenue Rod, Gun, Bloody Mary & Laborador Retriever
Benevolent Association (MARGBM&LRBA). Along those lines, I've decided to call
my club the "Brodhead Stripped Thread, Smashed Thumb, Ground Loop, Paint Sag
& Run Club", or BSTSTGLPS&RC for short. Rick will be very welcome there unless
he replaces those piano hinges with new ones that are perfectly drilled with
no extra holes.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Air Camper NX41CC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279469#279469
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Chris
That is exactly what my daughter suggested I do with all the metal parts I
made that I had to remake. Problem is with all the parts I screwed up on
this mobile would weight in at over a hundred pounds and I don't have a tre
e
big enough to hang something like that from.
rick
> Always check to see what you need the part to be before building it or yo
u
too will have a box of parts >that don=92t fit quite right. I keep thinkin
g I
should build a wind chime out of mine.
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Subject: Re: snag time at buildapalooza
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Well, that's the last time I will ever post a picture on this newsgroup! :)
Actually Oscar that hinge is just some scrap hinge I had laying around that
I put there to take the picture, the REAL hinge is absolutely perfect (in my
opinion). Do they have a Tin or Lead Lindy Award that maybe I would qualify
for?
rick
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:23 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
> Jeff; I was going to say the same thing about the beautiful workmanship on
> Rick's airplane until I noticed that he had a little problem with the first
> set of holes on the piano hinges. One set of screws hit right on a rib and
> he had to make new holes, offset to the other sides of the ribs. Tsk,
> tsk... this ruins his chances at a Lindy Award or Golden Hammer for sure ;o)
>
> He will be very welcome in my club, though. If any of you remember the old
> "Exit, Laughing" column that Ed Zern wrote for Field & Stream magazine many
> years ago, he concocted the Madison Avenue Rod, Gun, Bloody Mary & Laborador
> Retriever Benevolent Association (MARGBM&LRBA). Along those lines, I've
> decided to call my club the "Brodhead Stripped Thread, Smashed Thumb, Ground
> Loop, Paint Sag & Run Club", or BSTSTGLPS&RC for short. Rick will be very
> welcome there unless he replaces those piano hinges with new ones that are
> perfectly drilled with no extra holes.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> Air Camper NX41CC
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279469#279469
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Pietenpol Logo
Date: Dec 31, 2009
Can someone tell me if/where the Pietenpol Aircamper logo is available?
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion, mounted
Tail done, Fuselage on gear
(16 ribs down.)