Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-iw

February 22, 2010 - February 25, 2010



________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: Pastor Mike Townsley <allischalmersguy(at)gmail.com>
I do not think they are on the list...here is some links. Chad's Scout Click Here for Article and Pics<http://stcroix.50webs.com/pages/artricle_pietenpol.html> Mr. Dennis Halls Scout a Picture Click Here to See<http://www.eaa431.org/images/aircraft/scoutc.jpg> A few more pics on this page <http://www.builddiary.net/plog/21/> And more pics on bottom of this page<http://www.westcoastpiet.com/dennis_hall_%28sky_scout%29.htm> I can not remember what magazine ran an article on Mr. Hall's Scout..but I remember seeing a nice artle on it. Enjoy, Mike <http://www.westcoastpiet.com/dennis_hall_%28sky_scout%29.htm> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Ray Krause wrote: > Thanks, Mike. > > I weigh ONLY 180, so maybe it is a possibility! I think I can adjust the > CG by moving the wing back, or elongating the motor mount. I may have to > build 2 motor mounts to find out, but that should not be too bad. > > I will probably go with the metal struts, but I like the idea of wood. > > I do not know about Chad Willie and Mr. Hall's Scouts. How do I find out > about them? Are they on this list? > > Thanks, > > Ray Krause > > N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, > Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Pastor Mike Townsley > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:26 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > HI Ray, > How much do you weigh? I weigh about 220 lbs and I was told I am too heavy > for the Scout. I know some scouts have been built and have seen them for > sale, some say no pilots over 200 lbs, as weight and balance won't work > out...it will be tail heavy. > > On the tubing, you could use round tubing and use some wood to steamline > it. Some have done that. But you could use chrome moly tubing. I would not > use aluminum. Just make sure it is strong enough. I am sure lots of guys > will chime in on the right size tubing to use. > I decided to move to a Air Camper over the Scout for two reasons, 1. My > weight. 2. I could learn to fly in the Air Camper and it doesn't take that > much more materials to build. (if I ever get to buiding) > > Good luck on the Scout. I hope it all works out for you. It would be a > nice plane. Have you read about Chad Willie's Scout and Mr. Hall's Scout ? > Two nice ones to model after. > Mike Townsley > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Ray Krause wrote: > >> I have started the Sky Scout and have completed the tail sections and >> about 1/2 of the fuselage. I will be using the A-65 that came with the >> completed ribs and the wood/plans. >> >> The plans call for "1675" streamlined tubing, but I find no reference to >> this at the supply houses. I am assuming it is chromolly (an older >> designation), not aluminum; correct? All of the other metal call-outs are >> for chromolly. To those who have made their struts from laminated wood, are >> they lighter than Chromolly? >> >> This is sure a lot of fun, but the plans sure leave a lot of "builder >> discretion (interpretation)"! Please let me know if others are building, or >> have built, a Sky Scout. I don't think they are very popular, as compared >> to the Air Camper. I am building exactly to plans, except for the >> "interpretation" items. I plan to use the three section wing plans for >> practicality purposes. >> >> Oh yes, another minor change that might be considered: I have a J-3 tank >> that fits perfectly behind the firewall and allows plenty of leg room. >> Good, or bad, for CG considerations? I am used to having the fuel right >> between my legs since I fly a Sonex and the J-3! >> >> I look forward to good discussions with the Sky Scout. I have followed >> this group for over a year now. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Krause >> >> N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, >> Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. Colusa, California >> 530-736-2627 >> >> >> >> * >> >> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Windscreen
Date: Feb 22, 2010
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Gary, Like that windscreen a lot. Could you post more detail shots at front corn ers? I think I am going to make mine over again. Yours looks like it is al l one piece, front and uprights? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Gary Boothe <gboothe(at)calply.com> Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 6:20 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Windscreen The kitchen remodel is on hold until the countertop guy gets his stuff don e, so I spent the weekend working on one of the windscreens. Mine are made from 6061 .025 and consist of 8 pieces: Front and back, 3 =98L =99 shaped fillers for the tops, and 3 mounting brackets to the fuselag e. Those are made, just not cut to length and fitted. I used a method simi lar to Jack Phillips, with a wood former. So far I have 12 hours in the fi rst one!!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: Jack Textor's turtledeck progress
Excellent looking work Jack. One thing that was suggested to me by Fran k Pavliga you might consider is using some leftover capstrip material to stabilize the stringers one to another as this sketch showed. This helps prevent the fabric tension as you tighten from distorting the st ringers and bowing them. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JERRY GROGAN" <jerry(at)SKYCLASSIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Fuselage Progress
Date: Feb 22, 2010
That is very nice. I have always said if you can hold something out and drop it and it falls to the floor its to heavy to put on your airplane. 10 ounces is 10 ounces not on your plane. I like it. Jerry Des Moines ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuselage Progress Having fun working on fuselage. Turtle-deck is about finished. Decided to have 11 stringers so I thought lightening holes may help lower the weight some, it only lowered it 10 ounces. Very happy with my helmet box cut-out, did it with a razor blade. Still snowing here, great building weather! Jack DSM www.textors.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: Gardiner & Ben, great winter shots in the arm and congratulations
Just outstanding news from you both and MANY rounds of applause for you both ! Loved your wife's (I'm assuming) commentary of 'oh my God' after you lifted off Ben--great video you posted and boy did you get off in a hurry. How cool is it that the FAA gent said he would give you a waiver to go to SNF once you have 15 hours flown off. Perfect ! This could be a really BIG year for Pietenpols at Sun-N-Fun ! I might have to book myself an airline ticket even..... Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Windscreen
From: Gerry Holland <gholland@content-stream.co.uk>
Gary Hi! Windshield looks great! Can I join with Dan and ask for more pictures and details. Regards Gerry, UK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: my apologies and appreciations through difficult times
To all, I apologize for my withdrawal from the recent activities of the board, times at the moment are difficult best. I would also like to thank you all for the kind and consoling words, e mails and thoughts. I certainly do appreciate your concerns and contacts, it's nice to know that at the depths of despair and grief that there is a support net work of friends willing to help. They time heals all wounds, at the moment I can only hope for that to be true and that the time passes quickly. I will continue to read work and build and when the time for me is right I will rejoin your ranks. These past weeks and days has taught me much about the people I choose to be associated and connected to. I could not let the time pass without thanking you for your contacts, support and expression of concern for my absence, its nice to be missed by friends Thank you all John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Windscreen
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Thanks, Dan! I'll post some more pics later in the week.when I get back to the office, but here's a teaser. #13 shows the gap between the front and back piece. #15 shows the 'filler'. It's just a piece of .016 bent to an 'L' and is located on the front side of the glass. #8 shows the cutout process of one of the pieces. After finishing this windscreen, I think I could incorporate the filler piece in to the front frame and just bend it over. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew(at)aol.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 5:25 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windscreen Gary, Like that windscreen a lot. Could you post more detail shots at front corners? I think I am going to make mine over again. Yours looks like it is all one piece, front and uprights? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Gary Boothe <gboothe(at)calply.com> Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 6:20 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Windscreen The kitchen remodel is on hold until the countertop guy gets his stuff done, so I spent the weekend working on one of the windscreens. Mine are made from 6061 .025 and consist of 8 pieces: Front and back, 3 'L' shaped fillers for the tops, and 3 mounting brackets to the fuselage. Those are made, just not cut to length and fitted. I used a method similar to Jack Phillips, with a wood former. So far I have 12 hours in the first one!!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Wow, that cabane is beautiful! -----Original Message----- From: Gary Boothe Sent: Feb 22, 2010 10:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Jack Textor's turtledeck progress
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Mike, Thanks for the kind words! I was planning on something similar but had not decided which method to use. Can you think of a reason the bracing is in an oval pattern? I would guess if they were straight across it would help even out the load. I was considering using 1/8=94 ply about =BE=94 high. Finished the back cap and belt slots last night. Thanks, Jack DSM Excellent looking work Jack. One thing that was suggested to me by Frank Pavliga you might consider is using some leftover capstrip material to stabilize the stringers one to another as this sketch showed. This helps prevent the fabric tension as you tighten from distorting the stringers and bowing them. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gene Rambo" <generambo(at)msn.com>
Subject: model A intake
Date: Feb 22, 2010
for you guys with Model A engines, I have seen some installations where the intake was extended about 1" so that the center two exhaust stacks do not have to jog around the intake. Since the intake is cast iron, and difficult to weld, I was wondering how this was done? Is it brazed? Also, what material was used for the extension (black iron?), and what was done (if anything) to prevent there being a "step" or other interference on the inner diameter of the intake? I have a Model B intake (slightly larger inside diameter than an A) and I have cut off the carb flange and exhaust shroud flange (which is not needed) and I want to re-attach the flange with a short extension. Just wondering how others have done it. Gene ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Windscreen
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Thanks, Gerry. Although it took a measurable amount of time, the parts seemed to go together well. No doubt others can do a better job, but I'll post those pics, step-by-step, in a few days. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Holland Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Windscreen Gary Hi! Windshield looks great! Can I join with Dan and ask for more pictures and details. Regards Gerry, UK ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Jack Textor's turtledeck progress
Date: Feb 22, 2010
There's an easier way than that... get a strip of thin plywood and glue it, curved, to the bottoms of the longerons. Works a charm. Of course, there's no reason to add that stiffness and that weight, since the fabric will stabilize it. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:40 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack Textor's turtledeck progress Excellent looking work Jack. One thing that was suggested to me by Frank Pavliga you might consider is using some leftover capstrip material to stabilize the stringers one to another as this sketch showed. This helps prevent the fabric tension as you tighten from distorting the stringers and bowing them. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Mike, Thanks a million, somehow I had missed all these references. I have the Westcoast Peit web site, but not the others. These will help a lot. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Pastor Mike Townsley To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... I do not think they are on the list...here is some links. Chad's Scout Click Here for Article and Pics Mr. Dennis Halls Scout a Picture Click Here to See A few more pics on this page And more pics on bottom of this page I can not remember what magazine ran an article on Mr. Hall's Scout..but I remember seeing a nice artle on it. Enjoy, Mike On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Ray Krause wrote: Thanks, Mike. I weigh ONLY 180, so maybe it is a possibility! I think I can adjust the CG by moving the wing back, or elongating the motor mount. I may have to build 2 motor mounts to find out, but that should not be too bad. I will probably go with the metal struts, but I like the idea of wood. I do not know about Chad Willie and Mr. Hall's Scouts. How do I find out about them? Are they on this list? Thanks, Ray Krause N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pastor Mike Townsley To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... HI Ray, How much do you weigh? I weigh about 220 lbs and I was told I am too heavy for the Scout. I know some scouts have been built and have seen them for sale, some say no pilots over 200 lbs, as weight and balance won't work out...it will be tail heavy. On the tubing, you could use round tubing and use some wood to steamline it. Some have done that. But you could use chrome moly tubing. I would not use aluminum. Just make sure it is strong enough. I am sure lots of guys will chime in on the right size tubing to use. I decided to move to a Air Camper over the Scout for two reasons, 1. My weight. 2. I could learn to fly in the Air Camper and it doesn't take that much more materials to build. (if I ever get to buiding) Good luck on the Scout. I hope it all works out for you. It would be a nice plane. Have you read about Chad Willie's Scout and Mr. Hall's Scout ? Two nice ones to model after. Mike Townsley On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Ray Krause wrote: I have started the Sky Scout and have completed the tail sections and about 1/2 of the fuselage. I will be using the A-65 that came with the completed ribs and the wood/plans. The plans call for "1675" streamlined tubing, but I find no reference to this at the supply houses. I am assuming it is chromolly (an older designation), not aluminum; correct? All of the other metal call-outs are for chromolly. To those who have made their struts from laminated wood, are they lighter than Chromolly? This is sure a lot of fun, but the plans sure leave a lot of "builder discretion (interpretation)"! Please let me know if others are building, or have built, a Sky Scout. I don't think they are very popular, as compared to the Air Camper. I am building exactly to plans, except for the "interpretation" items. I plan to use the three section wing plans for practicality purposes. Oh yes, another minor change that might be considered: I have a J-3 tank that fits perfectly behind the firewall and allows plenty of leg room. Good, or bad, for CG considerations? I am used to having the fuel right between my legs since I fly a Sonex and the J-3! I look forward to good discussions with the Sky Scout. I have followed this group for over a year now. Thanks, Ray Krause N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. Colusa, California 530-736-2627 " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: turtledeck bracing
Can you think of a reason the bracing is in an oval pattern? I would gues s if they were straight across it would help even out the load. I can't Jack, it was just the way Frank Pavliga advised me on installing so me 'insurance' supports mid-span the bulkhead-type stringer supports you've already got in there. I like your idea of hav ing so many stringers-it really gives an elegant look. I don't think the plans show enough stringers so I added a few of my own th at number close to 10 or 11. [cid:image001.jpg(at)01CAB3C6.1894C560] I was considering using 1/8" ply about =BE" high. Finished the back cap and belt slots last night. Thanks, Jack DSM Excellent looking work Jack. One thing that was suggested to me by Fran k Pavliga you might consider is using some leftover capstrip material to stabilize the stringers one to another as this sketch showed. This helps prevent the fabric tension as you tighten from distorting the st ringers and bowing them. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Gary, Thanks for going out of your way. Only 18 Ozs? That seems pretty light. I will check the metal weights and try to guestimate the weight of the fittings. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To: Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: Pastor Mike Townsley <allischalmersguy(at)gmail.com>
Nice work Gary...looks really great! Mike Townsley On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: > Ray, > > > I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 > seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and > weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). > > > Gary Boothe > > Cool, Ca. > > Pietenpol > > WW Corvair Conversion, mounted > > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > > (18 ribs down=85) > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> > > > Shad, > > > Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 > > struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If > the > > wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. > > > I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal > > struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to th e > > right size. > > > Thanks for your help. > > > Ray Krause > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > > > > > > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > > > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > > > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse > 4130, > > > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inc h > > > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero > works > > > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > > > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > > > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > > > does not have a web site. > > > > > > > > > Shad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Gary, If I made these 22" struts (front/center) from metal, they would weigh 22+ ounces without the ends. How did you decide on the thickness and shape for the struts? Why did you chose Hickory versus, say ash? Did you laminate because you needed to get to a certain thickness, or for strength? There is a source for hickory and ash that has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I got some 1" ash for 2.37 per board foot. Are your "flying struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What shape? Thanks, Ray Krause. P.S. The aerostream tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front strut ($28.00/ft and .7593 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft right now. I am not sure of its quality. None of the aerotubing matches the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 X .75 and 2" X 1"). ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To: Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Visit to Long Island NY
From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Hi - I'm traveling to Long Island 23 Feb - 1 March on business. Would enjoy visiting any projects/planes within an hour drive or so. Please contact me at kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil or 512-422-6371 if you can tolerate a quick evening visit sometime that week. Thanks, Kevin Purtee NX899KP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287684#287684 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cooling Ears
From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Gary - I just read this thread & may be too late. I did not put access holes for my spark plugs. When I had to replace the plugs I simply removed the outer bolts holding the eyebrow cowls and gently lifted the cowls to give enough clearance to get to the plugs. Worked fine. For the oil cooler, I simply extended the eyebrow cowl to cover the cooler, and so far it appears that I've got a LOT of oil cooling. I think your approach may be better. Take care, Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287687#287687 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: wood struts
Date: Feb 22, 2010
I remember a while back when people were talking about strut weights, I went out and weighed one of my wooden struts with fittings. Someone had weighed their steel ones and the wood one was lighter. I can't though find my old email and don't remember the weights. I'll bet the aluminum struts are lighter though. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cooling Ears
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Gary, Do you intend to use both the stock corvair oil cooler and another remote oil cooler ? I noticed the sandwich adapter on your rear oil filter adapter. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287689#287689 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Cooling Ears
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Gary, Do you intend to use both the stock corvair oil cooler and another remote oil cooler ? I noticed the sandwich adapter on your rear oil filter adapter. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287690#287690 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Ray, Your questions are intelligent and educated..attributes to which I make no personal claim. In all honesty, I perused the West Coast Piet web site to exhaustion. Too bad Chris Tracy doesn't have sponsors, or he'd be a rich man! After looking at every application of wood strut that has been built and is flying, I decided it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went from ash to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of hickory and the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions for steel. Later conversations with another builder (either Cliff Dawson or Douwe Blumberg), far more intelligent and educated than I, showed published strengths of various woods, and verified that hickory had plenty of strength for our purposes. I think I can find that email, but it's on my other computer at home. My wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the shape and size on the plans. Connections will surely be similar to Douwe's. All cabanes and wing struts are laminated because..that's what everyone does! Really, it gives you an opportunity to rotate the grain and eliminate the possibility of having a weak link. Also, it looks really cool! My wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in Auburn, Ca (California Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing in whatever length and size needed. He even mills, if necessary. He located my fir spars and sold all four for $185!! Bonus is that he helped build some wood airplanes and knows what grains to look for. Further note: If anything goes wrong, I'll blame Chris Tracy for publishing all those photos! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, If I made these 22" struts (front/center) from metal, they would weigh 22+ ounces without the ends. How did you decide on the thickness and shape for the struts? Why did you chose Hickory versus, say ash? Did you laminate because you needed to get to a certain thickness, or for strength? There is a source for hickory and ash that has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I got some 1" ash for 2.37 per board foot. Are your "flying struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What shape? Thanks, Ray Krause. P.S. The aerostream tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front strut ($28.00/ft and .7593 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft right now. I am not sure of its quality. None of the aerotubing matches the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 X .75 and 2" X 1"). ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe <mailto:gboothe5(at)comcast.net> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Cooling Ears
Date: Feb 22, 2010
HAH!! You just had to bring that up!! Long explanation, none of which is a good excuse, but WW also pointed that out to me. I'm saving my shekels for a Niagara cooler (anybody want a 12 plate?). Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dwilson Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cooling Ears Gary, Do you intend to use both the stock corvair oil cooler and another remote oil cooler ? I noticed the sandwich adapter on your rear oil filter adapter. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287690#287690 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Cooling Ears
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Kevin, Yes, you are too late as I have cut out those access holes. Although WW complimented my metal work in ducting of the air over the cooler, he highly suggested that I change it to give it more head pressure. In other words...more like yours! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cooling Ears Gary - I just read this thread & may be too late. I did not put access holes for my spark plugs. When I had to replace the plugs I simply removed the outer bolts holding the eyebrow cowls and gently lifted the cowls to give enough clearance to get to the plugs. Worked fine. For the oil cooler, I simply extended the eyebrow cowl to cover the cooler, and so far it appears that I've got a LOT of oil cooling. I think your approach may be better. Take care, Kevin Purtee NX899KP Austin, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287687#287687 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Fw: Best Duct Tape Story Ever
--- On Mon, 2/22/10, Susan G. Mason wrote: From: Susan G. Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com> Subject: Fw: Best Duct Tape Story Ever Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 6:01 PM =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A =C2-=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Matthew =0AKirby =0ATo: c.gi lham(at)mindspring.com ; 'Jean =0AKirby' ; susangmason(at)gmail.com =0ASent: Mond ay, February 22, 2010 5:53 PM=0ASubject: FW: Best Duct Tape Story Ever=0A =0A=0AShared Gardiner=99s =0Apictures with a friendand look at this.=C2- Hope this doesn=99t give him any =0Aideas =0A =C2- =0ATell Gardiner to watch =0Aout for bears. =0A =C2- =0A=0AMatthew =0AKi rby =0A=C2- =0ARTDC LLC/Trickum Ops =0ALLC =0A1380 West Paces Ferry =0ARo ad, N.W. =0ASuite =0A2070 =0AAtlanta,=0A GA=0A 30327 =0Ap =0A404-939-6289 =0Af =0A404-745-8012 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Travis =0ADommert [mailto:TravisD @thelindquistgroup.com] Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 5:41 =0APM Subject: FW: Best Duct =0ATape Story Ever =0A =C2- =0AHad =0Ato share the shots of Jean=99s uncle=99s plane with one of my best childhoo d friends =0Awho works in airframe design at Lockheed.=C2- He previously worked for a =0Acompany that designed kit airplanes.=C2- Sure enough, he came back with =0Asomething fun to shareamazing duct tape job! =0A =C2- =0A=0A________________ =0A =C2- =0ATravis =0ADommert =0AThe =0ALi ndquist Group |=0A One Buckhead =0A=0A Plaza =0A=0A3060 Peachtree =0ARoad, Suite 200 |=0A Atlanta ,=0A GA=0A 30305 =0Aoffice:=C2- =0A404.841.0010=C2 - |=C2- direct:=C2-=C2- =0A404.469.9513 =0Afax:=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =0A404.841.7075=C2- |=C2- mobile:=C2- =0A404.207.0 104 =0A =C2- =0ACaring for =0A=0A America =99s finest families and homes =0Asince 1890, The Lindquist Group offers retained and contingent pla cement =0Aservices, consulting services and operational support for all res idential =0Astaffing and childcare specialties. =0A =C2- =0ANew =0AYork, =0A Greenwich , Palm Beach , =0A Atlanta ,=0A London =0Awww.thelindquistgr oup.com =0A =C2- =0A=0A=0AFrom: Welch, =0ADoug W [mailto:doug.w.welch@lmc o.com] Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 5:07 =0APM Subject: FW: Best Duct =0ATape Story Ever =0A =C2- =0AThe =0Aairplane pix you sent looked a lot better, but I bet they both fly about the =0Asame. =0A =C2- =0A=0ADoug =0AWelch F-35 =0AConfiguration =0ADesign Lockheed =0AMartin Aeronautics Co. =0APO =0ABox =0A748 =0AMZ=C2-2304 Fort Worth =0A TX=0A 76101 817-777-2209 doug.w.welch(at)lmco.com =0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =C2- =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Best =0A duct tape story ever During a private =0A "fly-in" fishing excursion in the Alaskan wildern ess, the chartered pilot =0A and fishermen left a cooler and bait in t he plane. =C2-And a bear =0A smelled it. =C2-This is what he did t o the plane. =0A =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- =0A =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2- =C2-=C2- =0A =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =C2- The =0A pilot used his radio and had another pilot bring him 2 new tires, 3 cases =0A of duct tape, and a supply of sheet plastic. He patched the plane =0A together, and FLEW IT HOME ! =0A =0A =C2-=C2- =0A =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2-Duct =0A Tape ? Never Leave Home Without It =C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =0A =0A =0A =C2- =0A =0A =C2- =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Hotmail: Powerful Free email with =0A security by Microsoft. Get it =0A now. =0A =0A No virus found in this incoming =0A message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus =0A Database: 270.14.147/2628 - Release Date: 01/17/10 =0A 07:35:00 =0A ______________________________________________________________________ This =0A email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security =0A System.. ______________________________________________________________________ =0A =C2- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
Subject: Vintage Instruments Listing on Barnstormers
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Hello good people! I came across this listing on Barnstormers (this is part of my daily routine), and figured one or two of you may be interested in what this feller is selling. My disclaimer here is that I don't know this guy or the quality of his goods. Proceed at your own risk. -Wayne > http://barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=412241 > > VINTAGE INSTRUMENTS CLEANING OUT THE HANGAR 30's-70's e-mail > your request 100's to choose from. clocks, turn co, alt, air spd. te > mp, radios etc. Contact Alex Londe - LONDE AIR LLC, Owner - locate > d Jackson, TN USA Telephone: 731-571-7800 . Posted February > 22, 2010 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Lagowski Morrow" <jimdeb(at)charter.net>
Subject: Vacation-unsubscribe
Date: Feb 22, 2010
I'll be away for ~2 weeks and don't want to scroll thru 100's of e-mails. How do I get off the list temporarily??--Jim Lagowski ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Dillsburg Areo
Ray, and others, The PH number for Dillsburg Aeroworks is 717-432-4589, the y have the best price on pretty much any size tubing you need.- Mr Vogals ong (The owner) is an old timer who knows his stuff (From what I gather) ha s built 1 or 2 airplanes, bicycles etc etc.- Give him a call and have him send you a price sheet on his inventory.- He caries some AN hardware, pl umbing fittings and other odds and ends.- FYI, to get his best prices you will want to buy full lengths of tubing, 16-18ft ea.- He will cut to 8ft so it can be shipped UPS, for no charge.- Give him a call. - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 22, 2010
From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: How did I fall in love with the Piet?
I built my first Pietenpol 30 years ago. It only had a 36 in wingspan, 2 channel radio, and a Cox .049 engine. I flew the crap out of that thing in the field behind my house. My 2 year old son would walk back there and hang with me too. He is 32 now, and took some pictures of me flying my current Pietenpol overhead last friday. Its funny, but when I looked at his pictures I was reminded of this old model. I can still remember that the model included some scaled down prints of the original Pietenpol plans for reference when detailing the model. In the attached picture you can see the fake Model A engine. Its funny how seeds are sown. I even copied the color scheme on this model for my full-scale version. It won't be long before the son that watched his dad fly the model will be climbing into the front seat to share the new model with me. A Sport Pilot Instructor ticket is sounding like a new goal. Ben Charvet Piet lover ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How did I fall in love with the Piet?
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
Now that first picture, Ben, is a frameable classic and should be sent to EAA for publication. Beautiful. -------- Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX Air Camper NX41CC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287747#287747 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Finally making sawdust and progress!
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 22, 2010
After a year and a half break from building, for various and sundry reasons, I'm finally back to making sawdust and progress on my Piet project. Now that my bandsaw is fixed and I've finally gotten some wood to work with, I'm cutting some 1/2" x 1/4" capstrip so that I can soon start building ribs. I should also have enough wood left over to buld my horizontal stab, thus completing the woodwork part of my tail section. It feels really good to finally be back to working on my Piet! I'll be back out in the garage again tomorrow cutting more capstrip! -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tailfeathers almost done Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287753#287753 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Finally making sawdust and progress!
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Good for you, Billy! The older I get the more I realize that nothing much matters except building and flying Pietenpols. Everything else is just distraction Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy McCaskill Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress! After a year and a half break from building, for various and sundry reasons, I'm finally back to making sawdust and progress on my Piet project. Now that my bandsaw is fixed and I've finally gotten some wood to work with, I'm cutting some 1/2" x 1/4" capstrip so that I can soon start building ribs. I should also have enough wood left over to buld my horizontal stab, thus completing the woodwork part of my tail section. It feels really good to finally be back to working on my Piet! I'll be back out in the garage again tomorrow cutting more capstrip! -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tailfeathers almost done Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287753#287753 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
I had an expert woodworker look at my wooden struts (which are laminated) and he couldn't understand why I laminated them at all. He made the very good point that just the wood without the ply center would be stronger, and he's right. I guess the best reason for laminating is to reduce the possibility of a hidden flaw in one piece of wood. and it does kinda look cool. Haven't had TV for ten years and wouldn't take it back for a million dollars!! Not only is it the biggest time waster ever invented, it gradually and subtly forms and changes one's thinking to fall in line with whatever world view is popular at the moment. I'd like to think for myself, thank you very much! Sorry for the rant. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Laminations also greatly reduce the possibility of a split. Cracks don't propogate across the glue line. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: laminating struts and tv I had an expert woodworker look at my wooden struts (which are laminated) and he couldn't understand why I laminated them at all. He made the very good point that just the wood without the ply center would be stronger, and he's right. I guess the best reason for laminating is to reduce the possibility of a hidden flaw in one piece of wood. and it does kinda look cool. Haven't had TV for ten years and wouldn't take it back for a million dollars!! Not only is it the biggest time waster ever invented, it gradually and subtly forms and changes one's thinking to fall in line with whatever world view is popular at the moment. I'd like to think for myself, thank you very much! Sorry for the rant. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)erec.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before clamping. Thanks. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 Ribs and tailfeathers done using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009
From: "chase143(at)aol.com" <chase143(at)aol.com>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Slightly off topic, but some very cool pictures. Glad to see Edwards is holding open houses again. Very impressive show of aircraft if you can make it. Perhaps someone could add a Piet. http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/Edwards09/Edwards09.html Steve -------- Steve www.mypiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287782#287782 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraft spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson wrote: > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson(at)erec.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Jerry Dotson" > > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread > on them before clamping. > Thanks. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: laminating struts
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Jerry, I used T-88 & some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. I only tried the resorcinol because I thought the dark brown color would enhance the look of the lamination. I found, though, that there was little difference between the two, once all the sanding and finishing was done. Clamping was merely done with several wood clamps. Clamping the struts while shaping was tried in two different ways. #1178 shows a simple woodworker's vice. I used this on all the landing gear struts. Because of the shape of the cabanes, they were a little more difficult to clamp. For those I made a jig out of 2x4. The 2x4 has two pin hole locations on one end as the cabanes are different lengths. This jig accomplishes two things: first, you can use bolts in the holes to hold the piece down (I put multiple washers under the strut to hold it up for shaping); secondly, the jig ensures that each strut has the fittings located exactly right. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before clamping. Thanks. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 Ribs and tailfeathers done using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finally making sawdust and progress!
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Awesome Billy... keep us posted. I agree with Jack... everything else is a distraction. -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287811#287811 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
As a structural engineer, I've wondered why people are placing plywood in the center of the laminated wood struts. The reasons that I have thought of are: a. You can make the bolt holes stronger. But good fitting design makes that unnecessary. b. The plywood cross-grain will help prevent the wood from splitting. But a laminated strut, with good fitting design, should be pretty robust in that regard all by itself. Can anyone explain the plywood to me? Thanks! David Paule P.S. I second Douwe's TV comment.... I don't miss TV. > > > I had an expert woodworker look at my wooden struts (which are laminated) > and he couldn't understand why I laminated them at all. He made the very > good point that just the wood without the ply center would be stronger, > and > he's right. I guess the best reason for laminating is to reduce the > possibility of a hidden flaw in one piece of wood. and it does kinda look > cool. > > Haven't had TV for ten years and wouldn't take it back for a million > dollars!! Not only is it the biggest time waster ever invented, it > gradually and subtly forms and changes one's thinking to fall in line with > whatever world view is popular at the moment. I'd like to think for > myself, > thank you very much! > > Sorry for the rant. > > Douwe > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
I have read somewhere, recently and I can't find the link, dang it, that Plastic Resin glue loses strength after repeated changes of humidity. It might have been that Advisory Circular about maintaining old aircraft. Might check into that. Of the glues mentioned, I'd choose either the Resorcinol or the T-88. The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the Resorcinol requires that. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "airlion" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraft spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson wrote: > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson(at)erec.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Jerry Dotson" > > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread > on them before clamping. > Thanks. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: laminating struts
From: "JohnC" <jcalvert(at)trinityvideo.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
That sure does not look like 15 ribs hanging up in the ceiling in that last photo. -------- I just hope when it's my turn to reach up and touch the face of God, I don't poke him in the eye on accident. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287814#287814 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a grain of salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your abilities! The point about laminating to avoid wood defects is well taken, I will follow suit. After computing the costs of the metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood struts! As far as the spars go, they were included in the wood I got with the Sky Scout package; they are spruce. But rather than the 1" thickness, they are 3/4", I think I will sandwich then with two pieces of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so they fit the ribs). The Hughes Hardwood place in Chico had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful spars, cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the hickory. The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). I will try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I have referenced Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it makes my eyes and brain hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 3:17 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, Your questions are intelligent and educated..attributes to which I make no personal claim. In all honesty, I perused the West Coast Piet web site to exhaustion. Too bad Chris Tracy doesn't have sponsors, or he'd be a rich man! After looking at every application of wood strut that has been built and is flying, I decided it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went from ash to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of hickory and the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions for steel. Later conversations with another builder (either Cliff Dawson or Douwe Blumberg), far more intelligent and educated than I, showed published strengths of various woods, and verified that hickory had plenty of strength for our purposes. I think I can find that email, but it's on my other computer at home. My wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the shape and size on the plans. Connections will surely be similar to Douwe's. All cabanes and wing struts are laminated because..that's what everyone does! Really, it gives you an opportunity to rotate the grain and eliminate the possibility of having a weak link. Also, it looks really cool! My wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in Auburn, Ca (California Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing in whatever length and size needed. He even mills, if necessary. He located my fir spars and sold all four for $185!! Bonus is that he helped build some wood airplanes and knows what grains to look for. Further note: If anything goes wrong, I'll blame Chris Tracy for publishing all those photos! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, If I made these 22" struts (front/center) from metal, they would weigh 22+ ounces without the ends. How did you decide on the thickness and shape for the struts? Why did you chose Hickory versus, say ash? Did you laminate because you needed to get to a certain thickness, or for strength? There is a source for hickory and ash that has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I got some 1" ash for 2.37 per board foot. Are your "flying struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What shape? Thanks, Ray Krause. P.S. The aerostream tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front strut ($28.00/ft and .7593 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft right now. I am not sure of its quality. None of the aerotubing matches the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 X .75 and 2" X 1"). ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To: Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: wood struts
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Douwe, Thanks for the response. But has anyone used aluminum struts. ACS sells streamlined aluminum in maximum lengths of 6', if I am reading their catalogue correctly. I am sure they are available somewhere else in longer lengths. Congratulations on your Air Camper's sign-off and flight, if I am remembering correctly. I have not seen the pictures that everyone else is referencing, did I miss something? Thanks, Ray Krause N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood struts > > > I remember a while back when people were talking about strut weights, I > went > out and weighed one of my wooden struts with fittings. Someone had > weighed > their steel ones and the wood one was lighter. I can't though find my old > email and don't remember the weights. > > I'll bet the aluminum struts are lighter though. > > Douwe > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: santiago morete <moretesantiago(at)yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Hi Ray, - I think you can use 4130 steel, 1025 steel, aluminum or-wood, round or st reamlined struts,-all that-has been used successfully.- My round, 102 5 steel struts weigh about-5 pounds each. Saludos - Santiago=0A=0A=0A Yahoo! Cocina=0A=0AEncontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.=0A=0A=0Ahttp://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
- - Not sure I agree with the below statement.- T-88 states using minimal cla mping pressure.- The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the Resor cinol requires that. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "airlion" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraf t spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson wrote: > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson(at)erec.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Jerry Dotson" > > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread > on them before clamping. >- Thanks. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: one more view laminating struts
One more view on laminating cabanes... http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReportDetail.cfm?BuildLogID=810&PlaneID=52&FName=Jim&LName=Markle&PlaneName=Air%20Camper If that link doesn't work, check out the build logs on mykitplane.com my .02 -----Original Message----- >From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> >Sent: Feb 23, 2010 9:05 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts > >Jerry, > >I used T-88 & some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. I only tried the >resorcinol because I thought the dark brown color would enhance the look of >the lamination. I found, though, that there was little difference between >the two, once all the sanding and finishing was done. Clamping was merely >done with several wood clamps. > >Clamping the struts while shaping was tried in two different ways. #1178 >shows a simple woodworker's vice. I used this on all the landing gear >struts. > >Because of the shape of the cabanes, they were a little more difficult to >clamp. For those I made a jig out of 2x4. The 2x4 has two pin hole locations >on one end as the cabanes are different lengths. This jig accomplishes two >things: first, you can use bolts in the holes to hold the piece down (I put >multiple washers under the strut to hold it up for shaping); secondly, the >jig ensures that each strut has the fittings located exactly right. > > >Gary Boothe >Cool, CA >Pietenpol >WW Corvair Conversion >Tail done, Fuselage on gear >18 ribs done > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson >Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:33 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > > >I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane and lift struts in >the next few days and would like to see pictures of clamping jigs so I don't >have to re-invent the wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, >T-88, and Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the time it >takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread on them before >clamping. > Thanks. > >-------- >Jerry Dotson >59 Daniel Johnson Rd >Baker, FL 32531 > >Started building NX510JD July, 2009 >Ribs and tailfeathers done >using Lycoming O-235 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol newbie...or..wow this is cool how do I get started
From: "skidmk" <skidmk(at)gmail.com>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Hi All, I've looked upon the Piet to be built over several summers for my summer camp. www.highflight.ca we'll be getting hands on with young folks aged 10-15, was wondering if you could give me some pointers. What would be the largest pilot the stretch fuse would accomodate? Any pitfalls anyone can stear me away from. this is for the kids, once the aircraft is built, we'll start another and so on,, we will be teaching kids to fly in these planes for free. thanks Mike -------- Mike "Skidmk" Bourget Ottawa, Ontario Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287834#287834 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included T-88 joints clamped tightly. Excellent results. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv Not sure I agree with the below statement. T-88 states using minimal clamping pressure. The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the Resorcinol requires that. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "airlion" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraft spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson wrote: > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson(at)erec.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Jerry Dotson" > > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread > on them before clamping. > Thanks. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > >tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.b nbsp; -Matt matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contri========= ====== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wood struts
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for his struts. I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got the tubing, and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had with me, and I have since misplaced the notepad somewhere. -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tailfeathers almost done Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: one more view laminating struts
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Oh crap! Not I get it... the VACUUM BAGGING demonstration. over and over and over and over ... LOL! -------- Mark - working on wings Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287840#287840 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: one more view laminating struts
I knew that was coming.... -----Original Message----- >From: K5YAC <hangar10(at)cox.net> >Sent: Feb 23, 2010 12:01 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: one more view laminating struts > > >Oh crap! Not I get it... the VACUUM BAGGING demonstration. > >over and over and over and over ... LOL! > >-------- >Mark - working on wings > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287840#287840 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: wood struts
http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html -----Original Message----- >From: Billy McCaskill <billmz(at)cox.net> >Sent: Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > >I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for his struts. I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got the tubing, and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had with me, and I have since misplaced the notepad somewhere. > >-------- >Billy McCaskill >Urbana, IL >tailfeathers almost done > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Subject: Larry Williams, Aluminum struts
As always, Chris Tracy's Westcoastpiet.com 'pictures' web site comes in with excellent value. For more photos go there, under Larry Williams. [cid:image001.jpg(at)01CAB491.5E92FF70] ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: wood struts
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Thanks, Billy. Maybe Larry will respond to this thread. Jim Markle sent me the source for the aluminum struts, looks very good. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for > his struts. I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got > the tubing, and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had > with me, and I have since misplaced the notepad somewhere. > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Urbana, IL > tailfeathers almost done > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: wood struts
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Jim, This is great information, thanks! This makes the aluminum struts a lot more reasonable... and lighter! Thanks, Ray Krause N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. and building the Sky Scout ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > > > http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Billy McCaskill <billmz(at)cox.net> >>Sent: Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM >>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts >> >> >>I think that Larry Williams is using the aluminum streamline tubing for >>his struts. I remember asking him at Brodhead this past year where he got >>the tubing, and I wrote down the source on a little notepad that I had >>with me, and I have since misplaced the notepad somewhere. >> >>-------- >>Billy McCaskill >>Urbana, IL >>tailfeathers almost done >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287839#287839 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Gary, Thanks for the information. If using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = grain of salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your = abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = wood defects is well taken, I will follow suit. After computing the costs of = the metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood struts! As far as the = spars go, they were included in the wood I got with the Sky Scout package; = they are spruce. But rather than the 1" thickness, they are 3/4", I think I = will sandwich then with two pieces of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so = they fit the ribs). The Hughes Hardwood = place in Chico had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful = spars, cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the = hickory. The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). I = will try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = have referenced Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it makes my eyes and = brain hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com= Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 = 3:17 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Ray, Your questions are intelligent and educated=85.attributes to which I make = no personal claim. In all honesty, I perused the West Coast Piet web site to = exhaustion. Too bad Chris Tracy doesn=92t have sponsors, or he=92d be a rich man! = After looking at every application of wood strut that has been built and is = flying, I decided it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went = from ash to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of = hickory and the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = for steel. Later conversations with another builder (either Cliff Dawson or Douwe = Blumberg), far more intelligent and educated than I, showed published = strengths of various woods, and verified that hickory had plenty of strength for = our purposes. I think I can find that email, but it=92s on my other = computer at home. My wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the shape and size on the = plans. Connections will surely be similar to Douwe=92s. All cabanes and wing = struts are laminated because=85.that=92s what everyone does! Really, it gives you = an opportunity to rotate the grain and eliminate the possibility of = having a weak link. Also, it looks really cool! My wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in Auburn, Ca (California Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing in whatever length = and size needed. He even mills, if necessary. He located my fir spars and sold = all four for $185!! Bonus is that he helped build some wood airplanes and knows = what grains to look for. Further note: If anything goes wrong, I=92ll blame Chris Tracy for = publishing all those photos! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = Ray Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM To: = pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Gary, If I made = these 22" struts (front/center) from metal, they would weigh 22+ ounces without = the ends. How did you decide on the thickness and shape for the struts? = Why did you chose Hickory versus, say ash? Did you laminate because you = needed to get to a certain thickness, or for strength? There is a = source for hickory and ash that has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I = got some 1" ash for 2.37 per board foot. Are your = "flying struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What shape? Thanks, Ray Krause. P.S. The = aerostream tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front strut ($28.00/ft and = .7593 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft right now. I am not sure of its = quality. None of the aerotubing matches the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 = X .75 and 2" X 1"). ----- = Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com= Sent: = Monday, February 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took = off for the week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear cabanes. It = measures 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, = mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down=85) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol= -list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the struts. = I will probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I = really enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go that way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero = Reference. The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can = probably get pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: "shad bell" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To: Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted = by: shad bell > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would bet = wooden struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, and = steel end fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for the = older metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions = ours are, some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall = thickness. also check dillsburg aero works > for tube prices, wicks is also having a = special "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I can = look up the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have a = price list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web = site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > < /PRE>http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List< B>< /PRE>http://forums.matronics.com < /PRE> http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution< /PRE> href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.m at ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com /c 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ~=B2=03r ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Negative. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Take a look at the Technical Data Sheet for T-88, which is information coming straight from the manufacturer of the product: <http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf> http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf They go so far as to say that "clamping is not necessary if the joint is undisturbed during set-up of the adhesive". Minimal clamping, as Michael noted, would be prudent to ensure the joint is stable while curing. However, "lots of clamping pressure" is certainly not needed, and can lead to a weak joint due to excessive pressure starving the joint of epoxy. Ryan On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:14 AM, David Paule wrote: > There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included > T-88 joints clamped tightly. > > Excellent results. > > David Paule > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Michael Perez > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:42 AM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > > > Not sure I agree with the below statement. T-88 states using minimal > clamping pressure. > > > The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the > Resorcinol > requires that. > > David Paule > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "airlion" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > > > > > > Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by > aircraft > spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my > blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner > > --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdotson@erec.net>> > wrote: > > > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson@erec.net<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdotson@erec.net> > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > > by: "Jerry Dotson" http://us.mc833.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jdotson@erec.net> > > > > > > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane > > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see > > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the > > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and > > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the > > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread > > on them before clamping. > > Thanks. > > > > -------- > > Jerry Dotson > > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > > Baker, FL 32531 > > > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > > Ribs and tailfeathers done > > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > > FAQ, > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > List Contribution Web Site - > > -Matt > > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > >tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" > target=_blank>http://www.matronics.b nbsp; -Matt > matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank> > http://www.matronics.com/contri=============== > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
On 02/23/2010 09:47 AM, David Paule wrote: > > I have read somewhere, recently and I can't find the link, dang it, that > Plastic Resin glue loses strength after repeated changes of humidity. It > might have been that Advisory Circular about maintaining old aircraft. > > Might check into that. > > Of the glues mentioned, I'd choose either the Resorcinol or the T-88. > The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the > Resorcinol requires that. I have heard that T-88 is VERY much hurt by too much clamping pressure. DON'T DO IT! Airplanes have fallen apart in flight because too much T-88 was squeezed out of the joint! Keep the clamping pressure to a minimum with T-88. Probably all epoxies, in general. -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Cool pictures, Steve. I liked the soundclips. And I always get a thrill out of seeing F-16s fly. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chase143(at)aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009 Slightly off topic, but some very cool pictures. Glad to see Edwards is holding open houses again. Very impressive show of aircraft if you can make it. Perhaps someone could add a Piet. http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/Edwards09/Edwards09.html Steve -------- Steve www.mypiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287782#287782 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Dan, if you can substantiate your comment below, please do so. Ryan, I found the article in "Fine Woodworking," August '07, page 37. Their testing was of a tight fit joint, a snug fit joint and a loose fit joint. They tested Maple, Oak and Ipe, none of them being woods we'd customarily use in aircraft structures. The joint design they tested not only didn't lend itself to calculating the shear strength of the glue, they didn't give enough information to make that possible. The data are only suitable for comparing one fit and one type of wood to another. With that in mind, the comparison is worth considering, especially for the difference of strength with the different fits. I want to emphasize that the strengths given in the article are not psi, and that they can't be compared to the 1,800 psi lap shear strength of T-88 with maple on the PDF sheet that Ryan referenced. Their data for T-88 with Maple is: Tight joint, 1,690 pounds, Snug joint, 1,680 pounds, Loose joint, 1,635 pounds. Their T-88 data for Oak is: Tight joint, 1,908 pounds, Snug joint, 1,832 pounds, Loose joint, 1,557 pounds. Their T-88 data for Ipe is: Tight joint, 2,425 pounds, Snug joint, 2,712 pounds, Loose joint, 2,503 pounds. They also tested Titebond III and got roughly the same values. Other glues that they tested were Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, Gorilla Glue, J.E> Moser's Ground Hide Glue, and Old Brown Glue. The tight-fit joints needed to be tapped together. They didn't say that they clamped them The snug-fit joints needed only hand pressure, and the loose-fit joints had a small gap. They said they used ample glue. Incidentally, the hide glues were roughly 3/4 the strength of T-88 or the PVA glues (Titebond or Elmers, which were all close) and the polyurethane glue was distinctly weaker, and proved the most sensitive to the fit of the joint. I hope this eases some of your concern here. T-88 is a reasonably forgiving glue. And again, please supply references to back up the statement below if you can. Thanks! David Paule P.S. Inasmuch as these airplanes are certified as experimental, actually running a controlled experiment and reporting the results might be a fun thing for someone to do. > Airplanes have fallen apart in flight because too much > T-88 was squeezed out of the joint! > Dan Take a look at the Technical Data Sheet for T-88, which is information coming straight from the manufacturer of the product: http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf They go so far as to say that "clamping is not necessary if the joint is undisturbed during set-up of the adhesive". Minimal clamping, as Michael noted, would be prudent to ensure the joint is stable while curing. However, "lots of clamping pressure" is certainly not needed, and can lead to a weak joint due to excessive pressure starving the joint of epoxy. Ryan On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:14 AM, David Paule wrote: There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included T-88 joints clamped tightly. Excellent results. David Paule ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Aluminum struts
For alluminum struts, you might try Carlson Aircraft, out of East Palistine Ohio. My dad and I flew over there in 99, before he decided on the Piet, and he had all kinds of alum. for the kits he designed, extruded I beams etc etc. Tragicly, Errnie was killed only a few months later due to an engine failure shortly after takeoff. The companny still continues to do buisness as of the last I checked. Give it a google search and see what you find. Shad ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: "ldmill" <lorin.miller(at)emerson.com>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Hi Ray, I think they've sold somewhere between 130 and 140 Waiex kits now. The best I can tell, about 20 or so seem to be flying. Got the panel in over the weekend, then the 9 yr old and I went hunting "The Baron"... almost got Snoopy and the doghouse in the process, but he saw Scotty waving and Snoop managed to get out the way in time... Lorin Lorin, You make me feel better! I delayed starting the Scout to let my wife adjust a little, but now that it is started, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy the building; but flying the Waiex is a real hoot! It is always hard to decide which I want to do when the sun shines. How many Waiex's are out and how many flying now? They are really beautiful ships. Thanks, Ray Krause N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. --- -------- Lorin Miller Waiex N81YX Pietenpol next up Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287905#287905 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 23, 2010
A buddy of mine is building a Xenos... nice kit, and he says things line up really good. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "ldmill" <lorin.miller(at)emerson.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout... > > Hi Ray, > I think they've sold somewhere between 130 and 140 Waiex kits now. The > best I can tell, about 20 or so seem to be flying. Got the panel in over > the weekend, then the 9 yr old and I went hunting "The Baron"... almost > got Snoopy and the doghouse in the process, but he saw Scotty waving and > Snoop managed to get out the way in time... > Lorin > > > Lorin, > > You make me feel better! I delayed starting the Scout to let my wife > adjust > a little, but now that it is started, I really enjoy it. I really enjoy > the > building; but flying the Waiex is a real hoot! It is always hard to decide > which I want to do when the sun shines. > > How many Waiex's are out and how many flying now? They are really > beautiful > ships. > > Thanks, > > Ray Krause > > N51YX, Waiex, TD, Jab 3300 (1197), AeroCarb, Sensinich 54X62 wood prop, > Dynon D-180, Garmin SL-30, 327, 296, 169 hrs. > --- > > -------- > Lorin Miller > Waiex N81YX > Pietenpol next up > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287905#287905 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Pics from Edwards AFB Open House 2009
Date: Feb 23, 2010
God Bless America! Great pictures! Thanks Jack DSM Slightly off topic, but some very cool pictures. Glad to see Edwards is holding open houses again. Very impressive show of aircraft if you can make it. Perhaps someone could add a Piet. http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/Edwards09/Edwards09.html Steve -------- Steve www.mypiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287782#287782 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: laminating struts
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)erec.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Thanks for the pictures Gary. I think I will use T-88. I am going to laminate the gear legs too. Did you try any stain? I believe I will just varnish without any stain. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 Ribs and tailfeathers done using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287914#287914 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: FW: Roll your mouse over any airport for the current conditions.
Date: Feb 23, 2010
It works Roll your mouse over any airport for the current conditions. Pretty Neat That's more than pretty neat. That's frappin' unbelievable! Damn! Click on the locations too and get even more wx info. Pilots sure have a lot of toys to play with now... interactive computer maps, glass cockpits, GPS, goggles that see thru the airplane skin, fighters that can tailslide and cobra, ....... is there more we don't know about? http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/zoa/mwmap3.php?map=usa ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
On 02/23/2010 05:48 PM, David Paule wrote: > Dan, if you can substantiate your comment below, please do so. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 010727X01532&key=1 "...examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to the spar." Having talked to a couple people who were familiar with the accident, I understand that the lack of coverage to be due to the adhesive being squeezed out by excessive clamping pressures. These people don't work for the FAA or the USDA Forest Products Lab, so they could have been mistaken and just drew incorrect conclusions from the report. > P.S. Inasmuch as these airplanes are certified as experimental, actually > running a controlled experiment and reporting the results might be a fun > thing for someone to do. I would like to do that test, but everything being equal and the lack of time I have, I probably won't be able to any time soon. Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Dan, Thanks for the link. I read it and followed its link to a full report, which says it wasn't T-88, it was a different glue; it contains this: ------------------------------- TESTS AND RESEARCH The USDA Forest Products Laboratory examined the left and right wing spar sections and their respective doublers. The examination of the wood spar composition revealed the cellular structure of the spars was consistent with that of Sitka Spruce, and the species that made up the plys of the plywood doublers were maple and yellow poplar. Chemical analysis of the adhesive bonds indicated Urea-formaldehyde was used for attaching the doubler plates. The examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to the spar. The Forest Products Laboratory report stated, "There was also very little penetration of the adhesive into the spar." The examination of the right front and rear upper spars revealed the compression and tension surfaces. The examination of the bond on the right upper rear spar doubler revealed the doubler was still bonded to the spar, but there was a lack of adhesive at the outer edges of the doubler plate. The lack of adhesive created a gap between the spar and the doubler. -------------------------------- So this failure was not a T-88 failure due to excessive clamping pressure. It was a different glue and they apparently didn't use enough of it. Excessive glue could have been squeezed out. However, with a urea-formaldehyde type glue, my understanding is that it's pretty hard to get excessive glue pressure. I'd think that insufficient coverage rather than too much pressure would have been the cause due to that. One common urea-formaldehyde glue is Weldwood Plastic Resin. I looked up their data sheet, http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf and it says this about pressure: "Once the glue is applied, pressure should be applied. Soft wood and machined hard woods can be glued at low pressures (50 PSI). Rough cut parts require more pressure (175 to 300 PSI) for softwood and hardwood respectively. Sufficient adhesive should be applied so that some squeeze out of excess adhesive is visible at edges. Glue line thickness should be from 0.003 + 0.006 inch for best results." That's a lot of pressure! If that doesn't squeeze out "too much" glue, the whole concept of squeezing out too much glue is nothing but an urban myth. Dan, if you should decide to run some tests, I'd be glad to help out if I can. Thanks for the interesting link! David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Yocum" <yocum(at)fnal.gov> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > > > On 02/23/2010 05:48 PM, David Paule wrote: >> Dan, if you can substantiate your comment below, please do so. > > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 010727X01532&key=1 > > "...examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive > used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to > the spar." > > Having talked to a couple people who were familiar with the accident, I > understand that the lack of coverage to be due to the adhesive being > squeezed out by excessive clamping pressures. These people don't work for > the FAA or the USDA Forest Products Lab, so they could have been mistaken > and just drew incorrect conclusions from the report. > >> P.S. Inasmuch as these airplanes are certified as experimental, actually >> running a controlled experiment and reporting the results might be a fun >> thing for someone to do. > > I would like to do that test, but everything being equal and the lack of > time I have, I probably won't be able to any time soon. > > Dan > > > -- > Dan Yocum > Fermilab 630.840.6509 > yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov > "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Absolutely! T-88 or any such glue requires a thin film be left between the wood layers. Just tighten enough to make sure you've squeezed out some around the edges so you know all the surfaces are covered. Resourcinal, Tightbond, yellow, white glues all require squeezing all excess glue out of the joint. Clif Not sure I agree with the below statement. T-88 states using minimal clamping pressure. The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clampping pressure, FYI, and the Resorcinol requires that. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "airlion" <airlion(at)bellsouth.net> To: Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv Jerry, you might consider plastic resin glue by weldwood carried by aircraft spruce. That is what prop people use, and that is what I am using on my blank that I will have at sun n fun. Gardiner --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Jerry Dotson wrote: > From: Jerry Dotson <jdotson(at)erec.net> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts and tv > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:33 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Jerry Dotson" > > I am going to be laminating wood for landing gear, cabane > and lift struts in the next few days and would like to see > pictures of clamping jigs so I don't have to re-invent the > wheel. What glues did you use? I have Resorcinol, T-88, and > Titebond III. I am leaning toward the T-88 because of the > time it takes to get several strips of wood with glue spread > on them before clamping. > Thanks. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287781#287781 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > >tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.b nbsp; -Matt matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contri========= ====== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 02/22/10 11:34:00 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: laminating struts
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Jerry, You're welcomed! I did not use any stain. I think most woods are beautiful without it! My 'varnish' is Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Dotson Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: laminating struts Thanks for the pictures Gary. I think I will use T-88. I am going to laminate the gear legs too. Did you try any stain? I believe I will just varnish without any stain. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 Ribs and tailfeathers done using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287914#287914 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Subject: Re: laminating struts and tv
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Hi David, There are a few inconsistencies in your arguments. You initially said "The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clamping pressure". Later you stated "There was a test in "Fine Woodworking" a couple years back that included T-88 joints clamped tightly." But when you later post a summary of that article, you noted that "The tight-fit joints needed to be tapped together. They didn't say that they clamped them." Along with other comments about the data and methods of testing not being useful for comparison to T-88, it would appear that your data does not really support your claim. Insofar as your latest post, you postulate that "That's a lot of pressure! If that doesn't squeeze out "too much" glue, the whole concept of squeezing out too much glue is nothing but an urban myth.". Well, the glue you are referring to is a type of glue that does need plenty of clamping pressure....we are not disputing that....this was about T-88, which has different clamping pressure requirements. I point you again to the website of System Three, the manufacturer of T-88. Since they developed and produce the product I would consider them to be a credible authority on how best to use it. On their site you can find "The Epoxy Handbook", which contains all kinds of information on how to use their products: http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/m_published-literature.asp In section VII D, they note the following about bonding with epoxy: "Third, do not over-clamp. Epoxy resins require only contact pressure. Over-clamping can squeeze most of the adhesive out of the glue joint and the epoxy that is left is absorbed into the wood starving the joint. A glue-starved joint is very weak. Use only enough pressure to hold the joint immobile and keep the two surfaces in contact until the epoxy has set overnight at normal temperatures. Nails, screws, clamps, rubber bands, or staples can all be utilized. Clamp just hard enough to close up the joint." I would say that the above paragraph is just about directly contradictory to your statement that "The T-88 isn't hurt by using lots of clamping pressure"", and your assertion that squeeze out is a myth; since it comes right from the people that make the product....I would have to give them the edge on this one. Have a good evening, Ryan On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:00 PM, David Paule wrote: > > Dan, > > Thanks for the link. I read it and followed its link to a full report, > which says it wasn't T-88, it was a different glue; it contains this: > ------------------------------- > > TESTS AND RESEARCH > > The USDA Forest Products Laboratory examined the left and right wing spar > sections and their respective doublers. The examination of the wood spar > composition revealed the cellular structure of the spars was consistent with > that of Sitka Spruce, and the species that made up the plys of the plywood > doublers were maple and yellow poplar. Chemical analysis of the adhesive > bonds indicated Urea-formaldehyde was used for attaching the doubler plates. > > The examination of the left front upper spar revealed that the adhesive > used on the plywood doubler did not cover the entire area being bonded to > the spar. The Forest Products Laboratory report stated, "There was also very > little penetration of the adhesive into the spar." > > The examination of the right front and rear upper spars revealed the > compression and tension surfaces. The examination of the bond on the right > upper rear spar doubler revealed the doubler was still bonded to the spar, > but there was a lack of adhesive at the outer edges of the doubler plate. > The lack of adhesive created a gap between the spar and the doubler. > > -------------------------------- > So this failure was not a T-88 failure due to excessive clamping pressure. > It was a different glue and they apparently didn't use enough of it. > Excessive glue could have been squeezed out. However, with a > urea-formaldehyde type glue, my understanding is that it's pretty hard to > get excessive glue pressure. I'd think that insufficient coverage rather > than too much pressure would have been the cause due to that. > > One common urea-formaldehyde glue is Weldwood Plastic Resin. I looked up > their data sheet, http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00030201.pdf and it says > this about pressure: > > "Once the glue is applied, pressure should be applied. Soft wood and > machined hard woods can be glued at low > pressures (50 PSI). Rough cut parts require more pressure (175 to 300 PSI) > for softwood and hardwood > respectively. Sufficient adhesive should be applied so that some squeeze > out of excess adhesive is visible at > edges. Glue line thickness should be from 0.003 + 0.006 inch for best > results." > > That's a lot of pressure! If that doesn't squeeze out "too much" glue, the > whole concept of squeezing out too much glue is nothing but an urban myth. > > Dan, if you should decide to run some tests, I'd be glad to help out if I > can. > > Thanks for the interesting link! > > David Paule > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: laminating struts
Date: Feb 23, 2010
Again I have to say absolutely! don't forget that stain penetrates into the wood. This means that the softest part of the wood takes in the most and the harder parts the least. This can reverse the grain pattern and look strange, especialy on softwoods like Spruce. The depth and pattern of natural colour dissappears too. Clif > Jerry, > > You're welcomed! I did not use any stain. I think most woods are beautiful > without it! My 'varnish' is Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish. > > Gary Boothe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: wood struts
From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz(at)cox.net>
Date: Feb 23, 2010
It was indeed Carlson Aircraft where Larry told me that he got his aluminum strut tubing from. I found my notepad this afternoon... -------- Billy McCaskill Urbana, IL tailfeathers almost done Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287934#287934 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: laminating struts
Date: Feb 24, 2010
This is great! All these new Piets coming along with wood struts! I had this link from a while back for Aluminum streamline tubing from Skytek. It's not them anymore! Clif "In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists." (Eric Hoffer) > Jerry, > > I used T-88 & some Resorcinol, but no fancy clamping jigs. > Gary Boothe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: laminating struts
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)erec.net>
Date: Feb 24, 2010
My 'varnish' is ALSO Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish. I like the stuff. Staining makes me nervous. I had a pine project ruined when I stained it. The soft grain looked "muddy". -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 Ribs and tailfeathers done using Lycoming O-235 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287945#287945 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: Re: laminating struts
From: Lloyd Smith <lesmith240(at)gmail.com>
When staining softwoods, apply a very thin coat of varnish first to seal open grain, lightly sand, stain as usual, then varnish. On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Jerry Dotson wrote: > > My 'varnish' is ALSO Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish. I like the stuff. > Staining makes me nervous. I had a pine project ruined when I stained it. > The soft grain looked "muddy". > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > Ribs and tailfeathers done > using Lycoming O-235 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287945#287945 > > -- "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." --British publisher and writer Ernest Benn (1875-1954) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Aluminum struts
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Hi All, I used the alum struts like Larry Williams. The aluminum insert is 7075 al uminum that I got from Mcmastercarr.com. The bottom fitting (not shown) is the 7075 insert, that I tapped for J-3 forked wing strut fitting (ACS or Wag Aero?). Inserts are bolted through the strut with 1/4" bolts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Pietn38b(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: Re: Aluminum struts
All These are done the same way I did mine in 1995. I have taken mine apart a couple of times to check for corrosion, all looks good. I got my strut material from a kit manufacturer in Kansas. Rans Aircraft I think. At the time the cost was about 1/4th the cost of making them from 4130. Jim Ballew Pietenpol N38B Collinsville, Ok. In a message dated 2/24/2010 8:00:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, helspersew(at)aol.com writes: Hi All, I used the alum struts like Larry Williams. The aluminum insert is 7075 aluminum that I got from Mcmastercarr.com. The bottom fitting (not shown) is the 7075 insert, that I tapped for J-3 forked wing strut fitting (ACS or Wag Aero?). Inserts are bolted through the strut with 1/4" bolts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: laminating struts
On 02/24/2010 06:33 AM, Jerry Dotson wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jerry Dotson" > > My 'varnish' is ALSO Min-Wax Urethane Spar Varnish. I like the stuff. Staining makes me nervous. I had a pine project ruined when I stained it. The soft grain looked "muddy". > Minwax makes a pre-stain wood conditioner for soft woods. It works well - I used it on the 0.75mi of Doug Fir I used for trim in the house... Dan -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "bryan green" <lgreen1(at)sc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Aluminum struts
Date: Feb 24, 2010
What size did you use for the cabanes and struts Jim? Bryan Green Elgin SC ----- Original Message ----- From: Pietn38b(at)aol.com To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:28 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum struts All These are done the same way I did mine in 1995. I have taken mine apart a couple of times to check for corrosion, all looks good. I got my strut material from a kit manufacturer in Kansas. Rans Aircraft I think. At the time the cost was about 1/4th the cost of making them from 4130. Jim Ballew Pietenpol N38B Collinsville, Ok. In a message dated 2/24/2010 8:00:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, helspersew(at)aol.com writes: Hi All, I used the alum struts like Larry Williams. The aluminum insert is 7075 aluminum that I got from Mcmastercarr.com. The bottom fitting (not shown) is the 7075 insert, that I tapped for J-3 forked wing strut fitting (ACS or Wag Aero?). Inserts are bolted through the strut with 1/4" bolts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Sun n Fun
Date: Feb 24, 2010
I just finished watching the morning news and it looks like you east coasters are going to be getting another snow storm. Time to start packing up and heading for Lakeland, Fl. for Sun and Fun. I have been told that our Wood work Shop will be back in the indoors where it was 2 years ago. For all who are not familiar, that workshop is kind of the 2nd home of Pietenpol after Brodhead. If anybody needs anything built for a Pietenpol contact me directly we can do it. Projects on hand for this year are a prop for Gardiner Mason and if no other projects come around a fuselage for me and maybe a tail section also. These will be for my new Sky Scout. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: greg menoche <gnwac(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sun n Fun
Dick, any chance of a rudder. Greg Menoche here in DE working on ribs. It would be a great feeling to know that members at S&F had a part in the completion of my one day Piet? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Dick N Sent: Feb 24, 2010 11:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sun n Fun I just finished watching the morning news and it looks like you east coasters are going to be getting another snow storm. Time to start packing up and heading for Lakeland, Fl. for Sun and Fun. I have been told that our Wood work Shop will be back in the indoors where it was 2 years ago. For all who are not familiar, that workshop is kind of the 2nd home of Pietenpol after Brodhead. If anybody needs anything built for a Pietenpol contact me directly we can do it. Projects on hand for this year are a prop for Gardiner Mason and if no other projects come around a fuselage for me and maybe a tail section also. These will be for my new Sky Scout. Dick N. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Gary, Thanks. I became confused answering all the e-mails that I started with these questions. I know that you are building an Air Camper! Thanks for the info on the spars. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Negative. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com= Sent: Tuesday, February 23, = 2010 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for = spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net&g= t; Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe To: pietenpol-list@matronics= .com=3D =3D20 Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 =3D = 3:17=3D20 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Ray, Your=3D20 questions are intelligent and = educated=3D85.attributes to which I make =3D no personal=3D20 claim. In all honesty, I perused = the West Coast Piet web site to =3D exhaustion.=3D20 Too bad Chris Tracy = doesn=3D92t have sponsors, or he=3D92d be a rich man! =3D After=3D20 looking at every = application of wood strut that has been built and is =3D flying,=3D20 I decided = it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went =3D from ash=3D20 = to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of =3D hickory = and=3D20 the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = =3D for=3D20 steel. Later=3D20 conversations with another builder (either = Cliff Dawson or Douwe =3D Blumberg),=3D20 far more intelligent and = educated than I, showed published =3D strengths of=3D20 various woods, and = verified that hickory had plenty of strength for =3D our=3D20 purposes. I think I = can find that email, but it=3D92s on my other =3D computer at=3D20 home. My=3D20 wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the = shape and size on the =3D plans.=3D20 Connections will surely be similar to = Douwe=3D92s. All cabanes and wing =3D struts are=3D20 laminated = because=3D85.that=3D92s what everyone does! Really, it gives you =3D an=3D20 opportunity to rotate the = grain and eliminate the possibility of =3D having a weak=3D20 link. Also, it = looks really cool! My=3D20 wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in = Auburn, Ca (California=3D20 Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing = in whatever length =3D and size=3D20 needed. He even mills, if necessary. He = located my fir spars and sold =3D all four=3D20 for $185!! Bonus is that he helped = build some wood airplanes and knows =3D what=3D20 grains to look = for. Further=3D20 note: If anything goes wrong, = I=3D92ll blame Chris Tracy for =3D publishing all=3D20 those = photos! Gary=3D20 Boothe Cool,=3D20 CA Pietenpol WW=3D20 Corvair Conversion Tail=3D20 done, Fuselage on gear 18=3D20 ribs done From:=3D20 owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = =3D Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM To: =3D pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: = Re: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Gary, If I made =3D these 22"=3D20 struts (front/center) from metal, they would = weigh 22+ ounces without =3D the=3D20 ends. How did you decide on the = thickness and shape for the struts? =3D Why did=3D20 you chose Hickory versus, say = ash? Did you laminate because you =3D needed=3D20 to get to a certain = thickness, or for strength? There is a =3D source for=3D20 hickory and ash that = has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I =3D got some=3D20 1" ash for = 2.37 per board foot. Are your =3D "flying=3D20 struts" (the long struts) also hickory? = What=3D20 shape? Thanks, Ray=3D20 Krause. P.S. The =3D aerostream=3D20 tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per = front strut ($28.00/ft and =3D .7593=3D20 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft = right now. I am not sure of its =3D quality.=3D20 None of the aerotubing matches = the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 =3D X .75=3D20 and 2" X 1"). ----- =3D Original=3D20 Message ----- From: Gary=3D20 Boothe To: pietenpol-list@matron= ics.com=3D =3D20 Sent: =3D Monday, February=3D20 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE:=3D20 Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took = =3D off for the=3D20 week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear = cabanes. It =3D measures=3D20 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the = postal=3D20 scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, =3D = mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down=3D85) -----Original Message----- From: = owner-pi= etenpol=3D -list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To:=3D20 pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky=3D20 Scout... Krause"=3D20 Shad, Thanks for the comments on the = struts. =3D I will=3D20 probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I = =3D really=3D20 enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go = that=3D20 way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero =3D Reference. =3D20 The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can = =3D probably get=3D20 pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- = From: "shad bell"=3D20 <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To:=3D20 Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 = 5:33=3D20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky=3D20 Scout... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted = =3D by: shad=3D20 bell > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would = bet =3D wooden=3D20 struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, = and =3D steel end=3D20 fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for = the =3D older=3D20 metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions = =3D ours are,=3D20 some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall =3D thickness. =3D20 also check dillsburg aero works = > for tube prices, wicks is also having = a =3D special=3D20 "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I = can =3D look up=3D20 the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have = a =3D price=3D20 list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web =3D = site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > <=3D /PRE>http:// www.mat=3D ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List& lt;=3D B><=3D /PRE>http://forums.matronics.com=3D <=3D /PRE>=3D http://www.matronic s.com/c=3D ontribution<=3D /PRE> href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://ww= w.mat=3D ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href=3D3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.= com/c=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://w ww .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D href=3D'3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics .c om/contribution 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D ~=B2=03r 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ~=B2=03r ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: getting kids interested in ARF's in the 1960's
ARF's were around in the 60's and many of you flew them like my brother and myself. Take this go-together with rubber bands Cox PT-19 Trainer. It was a ver y forgiving control line model and when you crashed the rubber bands took the impact and you co uld put it all back together easily if you had enough rubber bands around. I purchase TWO of the remanufactured Cox retro PT-19's around 2002 when the y ran a new production run and still have them in the box for some fine summer day. We would take them off from our picnic table in the back yard pretending to be taking off from an aircraft carrier. When fuel was running low we would fly a high circl e in hopes that we could then glide and make a landing back on the picnic table carrier. Many scale mod el pilots got killed crashing violently into the edge of that big green picnic table at 4101 Hilltop Driv e. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: "Red Betsy" the movie
Date: Feb 24, 2010
I remember when this movie was made and saw the trailer. Does anyone know how to get a copy of this elusive movie? Barry Davis Big Piet N973BP ________________________________________________________________________________
From: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
Subject: getting kids interested in ARF's in the 1960's
Date: Feb 24, 2010
I bought that very same plane for my boy....it's one of Cox's better plastic planes, it at least flew half way decent. Brian SLC-UT From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 1:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: getting kids interested in ARF's in the 1960's ARF's were around in the 60's and many of you flew them like my brother and myself. Take this go-together with rubber bands Cox PT-19 Trainer. It was a very forgiving control line model and when you crashed the rubber bands took the impact and you could put it all back together easily if you had enough rubber bands around. I purchase TWO of the remanufactured Cox retro PT-19's around 2002 when they ran a new production run and still have them in the box for some fine summer day. We would take them off from our picnic table in the back yard pretending to be taking off from an aircraft carrier. When fuel was running low we would fly a high circle in hopes that we could then glide and make a landing back on the picnic table carrier. Many scale model pilots got killed crashing violently into the edge of that big green picnic table at 4101 Hilltop Drive. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: Re: Finally making sawdust and progress!
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Well put Jack, but I bet that RV-10 is one big distraction. rick On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jack Phillips wrote: > > Good for you, Billy! > > The older I get the more I realize that nothing much matters except building > and flying Pietenpols. Everything else is just distraction > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy > McCaskill > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:55 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress! > > > After a year and a half break from building, for various and sundry reasons, > I'm finally back to making sawdust and progress on my Piet project. Now > that my bandsaw is fixed and I've finally gotten some wood to work with, I'm > cutting some 1/2" x 1/4" capstrip so that I can soon start building ribs. I > should also have enough wood left over to buld my horizontal stab, thus > completing the woodwork part of my tail section. It feels really good to > finally be back to working on my Piet! I'll be back out in the garage again > tomorrow cutting more capstrip! > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Urbana, IL > tailfeathers almost done > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287753#287753 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: Re: getting kids interested in ARF's in the 1960's
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
I had the Cox P-40 Warhawk with the same .049 engine Mike, and I still have that .049 with an original prop. http://cgi.ebay.com/1950s-VINTAGE-COX-THIMBLE-DROME-P-40-WARHAWK-AIRPLANE_W 0QQitemZ170449166359QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100223?IMSfp=TL100223142004r21 654 rick On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] wrote: > ARF=92s were around in the 60=92s and many of you flew them like my brot her > and myself. > > Take this go-together with rubber bands Cox PT-19 Trainer. It was a > very forgiving control > line model and when you crashed the rubber bands took the impact and you > could put it > all back together easily if you had enough rubber bands around. > > I purchase TWO of the remanufactured Cox retro PT-19=92s around 2002 when > they ran a new > production run and still have them in the box for some fine summer day. > > We would take them off from our picnic table in the back yard pretending to > be taking off from > an aircraft carrier. When fuel was running low we would fly a high > circle in hopes that we could then > glide and make a landing back on the picnic table carrier. Many scale > model pilots got killed crashing > violently into the edge of that big green picnic table at 4101 Hilltop > Drive. > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: "Red Betsy" the movie----Pietenpol scene right up front
in YouTube video Here is the movie trailer: Shows what looks like Allen Rudolph's Ford Pie t in the scene and taking off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPrGB0PgkM0 The movie web site says "coming soon to home DVD...." but couldn't find one anywhere for sale on Amazon.com or the like. http://www.redbetsy.com/start.html Probably everything you want to see is in this trailer anyway ! Red Betsy (2003<http://www.imdb.com/year/2003/>) More at IMDbPro > Plot: Wisconsin, 1941. A group of rural townspeople gather on a farm field, eagerly observing amateur pilot Dale Rounds (Brent Crawford) as he prepare s his airplane, Red Betsy, for its inaugural flight. Dale built Red Betsy w ith the help of his father, Emmet (Leo Burmester) from spare automotive par ts. As the community watches with growing excitement and skepticism, Dale a nd Emmet are determined to show that their contraption can really fly. Waiting expectantly in the sidelines are Dale's girlfriend Winifred (Alison Elliott), and mother Helen (Lois Smith). After a few false starts, the air plane barrels down the makeshift runway and glides effortlessly into the ai r, clearing the treetops. The crowd erupts into enthusiastic cheers and app lause. That evening, Dale and Winifred discuss their plans of getting marri ed and moving to the state capitol in Madison.Winifred believes that Emmet doesn't like her. "He keeps referring to me in the third person ... like I' m not even there," she says. Dale assures Winifred that his father likes he r, however he realizes that Emmet will have a problem with them moving away . ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Cox pt-19, off topic
Mike, a guy I work with has one of those old "U" control pt-19's with the .049. We still occasionally get it out when all the airplanes are out of the hanger. It has been wrecked a gozillion times, and is probably 200% it original weight. The engine came off once after a touch and go and headed streight for our supervisors office (still running!) it slid to a stop at the foot of the door. I like RC models better, after 2-3 min of spinning around, watching the light flicker past the windows of the hanger doors I want to loose my lunch. But just like an idiot, I take my turn every time it comes out of the locker. Shad ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: Re: "Red Betsy" the movie----Pietenpol scene right up
front in YouTube video
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Mike + Barry, I don't think that site has been updated since '03. It doesn't look like th e movie is available on DVD, nor will be anytime soon; too bad: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/entertainment/31876919.html Ryan On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] wrote: > Here is the movie trailer: Shows what looks like Allen Rudolph=92s For d > Piet in the scene and taking off. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPrGB0PgkM0 > > > The movie web site says =93coming soon to home DVD=85.=94 but couldn =92t find > one anywhere for sale on Amazon.com > > or the like. > > > http://www.redbetsy.com/start.html > > > Probably everything you want to see is in this trailer anyway ! > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
Subject: Re: Finally making sawdust and progress!
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Jack, Have they come up with a tailwheel RV-10 yet? :) Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Rick Holland wrote: > > > Well put Jack, but I bet that RV-10 is one big distraction. > > rick > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jack Phillips > wrote: >> > >> >> Good for you, Billy! >> >> The older I get the more I realize that nothing much matters except >> building >> and flying Pietenpols. Everything else is just distraction >> >> Jack Phillips >> NX899JP >> Raleigh, NC >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Billy >> McCaskill >> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:55 PM >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress! >> >> > >> >> After a year and a half break from building, for various and sundry >> reasons, >> I'm finally back to making sawdust and progress on my Piet >> project. Now >> that my bandsaw is fixed and I've finally gotten some wood to work >> with, I'm >> cutting some 1/2" x 1/4" capstrip so that I can soon start building >> ribs. I >> should also have enough wood left over to buld my horizontal stab, >> thus >> completing the woodwork part of my tail section. It feels really >> good to >> finally be back to working on my Piet! I'll be back out in the >> garage again >> tomorrow cutting more capstrip! >> >> -------- >> Billy McCaskill >> Urbana, IL >> tailfeathers almost done >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=287753#287753 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Rick Holland > Castle Rock, Colorado > > "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Finally making sawdust and progress!
Date: Feb 24, 2010
The RV-10 counts (barely) as building. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Holland Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress! Well put Jack, but I bet that RV-10 is one big distraction. rick On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jack Phillips wrote: > > Good for you, Billy! > > The older I get the more I realize that nothing much matters except building > and flying Pietenpols. Everything else is just distraction > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: "Red Betsy" the movie----Pietenpol scene right up
front in Y
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Mike. There were about 2 hours of Pietenpol filming that I was involved with before all the editing, From Piet building in the red barn, with a semi- assembled Piet to the filming of Allen's Piet at Oconomowoc air strip If we could locate many of the film clips, That were taken and never put in the film,it would be a great and interesting bit of entertainment. From the soup can on the carb, preheat exhaust pipe to the Directors insisting that the camera equipment be using the safety belt in the rear cockpit and the camera man had to hold on to Allen's plane anyway to keep from falling out.all while Ted flew from the front seat. a great moment in Pietenpol filming. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288054#288054 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: "Red Betsy" the movie----Pietenpol scene right up
front in YouTube video
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Hi Guys, This is really ironic. I bought my model A runout from a flea market guy in Boscobel Wi. My wife and I drove up there to pick it up after winning an Ebay bid ("Buy it now" for $100.00) But memories of the regionally evocative film, shot in Delafield and set in World War II era Boscobel, remain vivid for many who wonder how they can see it again. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Sent: Wed, Feb 24, 2010 3:43 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "Red Betsy" the movie----Pietenpol scene righ t up front in YouTube video Mike + Barry, I don't think that site has been updated since '03. It doesn't look like the movie is available on DVD, nor will be anytime soon; too bad: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/entertainment/31876919.html Ryan On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] wrote: Here is the movie trailer: Shows what looks like Allen Rudolph=99s Ford Piet in the scene and taking off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPrGB0PgkM0 The movie web site says =9Ccoming soon to home DVD. =9D but couldn=99t find one anywhere for sale on Amazon.com or the like. http://www.redbetsy.com/start.html Probably everything you want to see is in this trailer anyway ! ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Hi Guys, I have been wrestling with the engineering of making my free-castoring tai lwheel into a steerable type. The conventional wisdom on this list has bee n that one should not connect the tailwheel with the rudder, as per the Ae ronca Champ, and many others of that era, due to the fact (?) that the woo den rudder is not strong enough to handle the loads. I see that Ken Perkin 's Time Machine is set-up just that way. Any new thoughts on this subject? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: struts
Date: Feb 24, 2010
I think Vi Kapler (sp?) used to sell aluminum for struts, worth a call. (no I don't know his number) I'm sure aluminum is lighter, and I'm also sure that either metal type strut is ultimately less work than a wooden strut. The only reason to do wood struts I can think of is for "the look". IF that's your thing, go for it, they'll work fine but will probably add a couple weeks to the project, not a big deal. I would personally use a good epoxy such as T-88 for laminating struts because it allows time and slippage while aligning and clamping whereas some others set up pretty quick, and don't like to be slid around much once contact is made. Epoxy is also one of the more forgiving glues if you have some areas that don't contact, it will fill the gap and retain strength. That all being said... I'm sure they all work fine, choose one you like and move forward. Everybody building struts, remember to not put your jury struts in the middle, get them off to one side. It is said this will help keep harmonic resonance vibrations down by being unbalanced. Sounds good, so I did it. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: Ben Ramler <ben_ramler2002(at)yahoo.com>
How are you,I hope all is well at home and work,I'm writing you this with tears in my eyes,as many of you have not responded to my last email and i guess you don't seem to be of help after when i told you about my difficulties here in United Kingdomi write to let you know i misplaced my wallet on my way heading back to my hotel room from the Starbucks coffee shop.Presently i have limited access to internet and would like you to assist me with a loan of 1,540 Pounds to sort-out my hotel bills and to get myself back home because my wallet consist of all my money,phone,diary and my boarding pass(Return Ticket). I have spoken to the embassy here but they are not responding to matters effectively,I'll Refund the money back to you as soon as i'm back home,I would have love you to call me but don't have a phone where i can be reached. let me know if you can be of any help,I will appreciate whatever you can afford to assist me with, do get back to me immediately as you receive this email in order for me to let you know where to send the money. I know this email sounds strange but i did send it Thanks Ben ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Finally making sawdust and progress!
Date: Feb 24, 2010
No, and apparently they have no plans to. I considered modifying mine to be a taildragger, but the plans for the RV-10 are not published. You get a very detailed builder's manual, but no real plans so it would be very difficult to design a modification. With the long nose housing that O-540 Lycoming, ground visibility would be something akin to that of a Pietenpol, and the tail cone would have to be beefed up substantially to handle the tailwheel loads. I decided to leave it alone and build it as a tricycle. It's a pity, because I've never owned an airplane with a nosewheel before. However, when I eventually sell it, there will be a much wider market for it as a tricycle than if it was a taildragger. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Bressler Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Finally making sawdust and progress! Jack, Have they come up with a tailwheel RV-10 yet? :) Wayne Bressler Jr. Taildraggers, Inc. taildraggersinc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 24, 2010
I ran separate tailwheel steering cables for mine, because I didn't like the loading that tailwheel steering would put on that rudder. The difference between the Pietenpol and a Champ or Cub is that on those planes, the rudder horn (where the cables attach) was down at the bottom, so the horn could drive the tailwheel steering. With the Pietenpol, the horn is in the middle of the rudder, but the tailwheel would be driven off the bottom of the rudder (by an additional horn). The light wooden structure would have to handle the torsional load from the tailwheel. It might be strong enough, but you would be guessing what the loads are and how much the rudder can handle. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of helspersew(at)aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder Hi Guys, I have been wrestling with the engineering of making my free-castoring tailwheel into a steerable type. The conventional wisdom on this list has been that one should not connect the tailwheel with the rudder, as per the Aeronca Champ, and many others of that era, due to the fact (?) that the wooden rudder is not strong enough to handle the loads. I see that Ken Perkin's Time Machine is set-up just that way. Any new thoughts on this subject? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 24, 2010
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
On my plane, the tailwheel steering cables go to a horn on the bottom of th e rudder. So far - no problem . But I will keep watching it. Gardiner Mason =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jack Phillips <piet flyr(at)bellsouth.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, Februar y 24, 2010 9:42:57 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- h ooked to rudder=0A=0A =0AI ran separate tailwheel steering cables=0Afor min e, because I didn=99t like the loading that tailwheel steering would =0Aput on that rudder. The difference between the Pietenpol and a Champ or =0ACub is that on those planes, the rudder horn (where the cables attach) w as down=0Aat the bottom, so the horn could drive the tailwheel steering. W ith the=0APietenpol, the horn is in the middle of the rudder, but the tailw heel would be=0Adriven off the bottom of the rudder (by an additional horn) . The light=0Awooden structure would have to handle the torsional load fro m the tailwheel. =0AIt might be strong enough, but you would be guessing wh at the loads are and how=0Amuch the rudder can handle.=0A =0AJack Phillips =0ANX899JP=0ARaleigh, NC=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFr om:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto: owner-pietenpol-list- server(at)matronics.com ] On Behalf Of helspersew(at)aol.com=0ASent: Wednesday, F ebruary 24, 2010=0A7:15 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Pi etenpol-List: Steerable=0Atailwheel- hooked to rudder=0A =0AHi Guys,=0A =0A I have been wrestling with the=0Aengineering of making my free-castoring ta ilwheel into a steerable type. The=0Aconventional wisdom on this list has b een that one should not connect the=0Atailwheel with the rudder, as per the Aeronca Champ, and many others of that=0Aera, due to the fact (?) that the wooden rudder is not strong enough to handle=0Athe loads. I see that Ken P erkin's Time Machine is set-up just that way. =0A =0AAny new thoughts on th is subject?=0A =0ADan Helsper=0APoplar Grove, IL.=0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://ww w.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Aht ======= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 24, 2010
No problem, Ray. I took your meaning to be, would the same information apply to a Sky Scout. Having never seen Sky Scout plans, I could not say, with real authority, that a =BE=94 spar is OK for the Sky Scout; however, it is my understanding that the two airplanes are very similar, maybe even the same wing. Lots of conversations on this list point out that vintage aircraft such as the T-craft or Piper Cub, have used an assortment of spar materials, =BE=94 thick. It is my recollection that the same conversation led to the agreement that, after routing, you basically end up with a =BE=94 spar, anyhow. Please, someone (I know this is a bashful group), if I have mis-directed Ray, please jump in! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks. I became confused answering all the e-mails that I started with these questions. I know that you are building an Air Camper! Thanks for the info on the spars. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Negative. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, February 23, = 2010 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for = spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net&g= t; Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 =3D = 3:17=3D20 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Ray, Your=3D20 questions are intelligent and = educated=3D85.attributes to which I make =3D no personal=3D20 claim. In all honesty, I perused = the West Coast Piet web site to =3D exhaustion.=3D20 Too bad Chris Tracy doesn=3D92t have sponsors, or he=3D92d be a rich man! =3D After=3D20 looking at every = application of wood strut that has been built and is =3D flying,=3D20 I decided = it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went =3D from ash=3D20 = to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of =3D hickory = and=3D20 the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = =3D for=3D20 steel. Later=3D20 conversations with another builder (either = Cliff Dawson or Douwe =3D Blumberg),=3D20 far more intelligent and = educated than I, showed published =3D strengths of=3D20 various woods, and = verified that hickory had plenty of strength for =3D our=3D20 purposes. I think I = can find that email, but it=3D92s on my other =3D computer at=3D20 home. My=3D20 wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the = shape and size on the =3D plans.=3D20 Connections will surely be similar to = Douwe=3D92s. All cabanes and wing =3D struts are=3D20 laminated because=3D85.that=3D92s what everyone does! Really, it gives you =3D an=3D20 opportunity to rotate the = grain and eliminate the possibility of =3D having a weak=3D20 link. Also, it = looks really cool! My=3D20 wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in = Auburn, Ca (California=3D20 Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing = in whatever length =3D and size=3D20 needed. He even mills, if necessary. He = located my fir spars and sold =3D all four=3D20 for $185!! Bonus is that he helped = build some wood airplanes and knows =3D what=3D20 grains to look = for. Further=3D20 note: If anything goes wrong, = I=3D92ll blame Chris Tracy for =3D publishing all=3D20 those = photos! Gary=3D20 Boothe Cool,=3D20 CA Pietenpol WW=3D20 Corvair Conversion Tail=3D20 done, Fuselage on gear 18=3D20 ribs done From:=3D20 owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = =3D Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: = Re: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Gary, If I made =3D these 22"=3D20 struts (front/center) from metal, they would = weigh 22+ ounces without =3D the=3D20 ends. How did you decide on the thickness and shape for the struts? =3D Why did=3D20 you chose Hickory versus, say = ash? Did you laminate because you =3D needed=3D20 to get to a certain = thickness, or for strength? There is a =3D source for=3D20 hickory and ash that = has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I =3D got some=3D20 1" ash for = 2.37 per board foot. Are your =3D "flying=3D20 struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What=3D20 shape? Thanks, Ray=3D20 Krause. P.S. The =3D aerostream=3D20 tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front strut ($28.00/ft and =3D .7593=3D20 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft = right now. I am not sure of its =3D quality.=3D20 None of the aerotubing matches = the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 =3D X .75=3D20 and 2" X 1"). ----- =3D Original=3D20 Message ----- From: Gary=3D20 Boothe Sent: =3D Monday, February=3D20 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE:=3D20 Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took = =3D off for the=3D20 week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear = cabanes. It =3D measures=3D20 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal=3D20 scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, =3D = mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down=3D85) -----Original Message----- From: = owner-pi= etenpol=3D -list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To:=3D20 pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky=3D20 Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the = struts. =3D I will=3D20 probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I = =3D really=3D20 enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go = that=3D20 way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero =3D Reference. =3D20 The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can = =3D probably get=3D20 pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- = From: "shad bell"=3D20 <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To:=3D20 Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 = 5:33=3D20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky=3D20 Scout... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted = =3D by: shad=3D20 bell > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would = bet =3D wooden=3D20 struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, = and =3D steel end=3D20 fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for = the =3D older=3D20 metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions = =3D ours are,=3D20 some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall =3D thickness. =3D20 also check dillsburg aero works = > for tube prices, wicks is also having = a =3D special=3D20 "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I = can =3D look up=3D20 the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have = a =3D price=3D20 list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web =3D = site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > <=3D /PRE> http:// www.mat=3D ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List & lt;=3D B><=3D /PRE> http://forums.matronics.com=3D <=3D /PRE> =3D http://www.matronic s.com/c=3D ontribution <=3D /PRE> href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://ww= w.mat=3D ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href=3D3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.= com/c=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics .c 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D ~=B2=03r 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://www .matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c om/co ntribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ~=B2 _____ r ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Thanks, Gary. The wing is exactly the same, except 27" shorter. Routing would be a lot of work, but doable. The ribs I got with the other wood are all built and seem to be made for the 1" spar. I will have to make a decision on which way to go. I have been putting in hard points in the fuselage for the seat and shoulder safety belts; thankfully I only need one set! I put the hard pints one station behind the seat, so I will have to find the right seat belts to fit. ACS has some that might work, when I get that far. Got the turtle deck mostly done today, that was fun. Thanks for the help. Ray Krause P.S. Guess I will have to take the Waiex to the Peit fly in. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... No problem, Ray. I took your meaning to be, would the same information apply to a Sky Scout. Having never seen Sky Scout plans, I could not say, with real authority, that a =BE" spar is OK for the Sky Scout; however, it is my understanding that the two airplanes are very similar, maybe even the same wing. Lots of conversations on this list point out that vintage aircraft such as the T-craft or Piper Cub, have used an assortment of spar materials, =BE" thick. It is my recollection that the same conversation led to the agreement that, after routing, you basically end up with a =BE" spar, anyhow. Please, someone (I know this is a bashful group), if I have mis-directed Ray, please jump in! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:29 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks. I became confused answering all the e-mails that I started with these questions. I know that you are building an Air Camper! Thanks for the info on the spars. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Negative. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com= Sent: Tuesday, February 23, = 2010 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for = spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net&g= t; Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe To: pietenpol-list@matronics= .com=3D =3D20 Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 =3D = 3:17=3D20 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Ray, Your=3D20 questions are intelligent and = educated=3D85.attributes to which I make =3D no personal=3D20 claim. In all honesty, I perused = the West Coast Piet web site to =3D exhaustion.=3D20 Too bad Chris Tracy = doesn=3D92t have sponsors, or he=3D92d be a rich man! =3D After=3D20 looking at every = application of wood strut that has been built and is =3D flying,=3D20 I decided = it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went =3D from ash=3D20 = to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of =3D hickory = and=3D20 the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = =3D for=3D20 steel. Later=3D20 conversations with another builder (either = Cliff Dawson or Douwe =3D Blumberg),=3D20 far more intelligent and = educated than I, showed published =3D strengths of=3D20 various woods, and = verified that hickory had plenty of strength for =3D our=3D20 purposes. I think I = can find that email, but it=3D92s on my other =3D computer at=3D20 home. My=3D20 wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the = shape and size on the =3D plans.=3D20 Connections will surely be similar to = Douwe=3D92s. All cabanes and wing =3D struts are=3D20 laminated = because=3D85.that=3D92s what everyone does! Really, it gives you =3D an=3D20 opportunity to rotate the = grain and eliminate the possibility of =3D having a weak=3D20 link. Also, it = looks really cool! My=3D20 wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in = Auburn, Ca (California=3D20 Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing = in whatever length =3D and size=3D20 needed. He even mills, if necessary. He = located my fir spars and sold =3D all four=3D20 for $185!! Bonus is that he helped = build some wood airplanes and knows =3D what=3D20 grains to look = for. Further=3D20 note: If anything goes wrong, = I=3D92ll blame Chris Tracy for =3D publishing all=3D20 those = photos! Gary=3D20 Boothe Cool,=3D20 CA Pietenpol WW=3D20 Corvair Conversion Tail=3D20 done, Fuselage on gear 18=3D20 ribs done From:=3D20 owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = =3D Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM To: =3D pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: = Re: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Gary, If I made =3D these 22"=3D20 struts (front/center) from metal, they would = weigh 22+ ounces without =3D the=3D20 ends. How did you decide on the = thickness and shape for the struts? =3D Why did=3D20 you chose Hickory versus, say = ash? Did you laminate because you =3D needed=3D20 to get to a certain = thickness, or for strength? There is a =3D source for=3D20 hickory and ash that = has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I =3D got some=3D20 1" ash for = 2.37 per board foot. Are your =3D "flying=3D20 struts" (the long struts) also hickory? = What=3D20 shape? Thanks, Ray=3D20 Krause. P.S. The =3D aerostream=3D20 tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per = front strut ($28.00/ft and =3D .7593=3D20 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft = right now. I am not sure of its =3D quality.=3D20 None of the aerotubing matches = the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 =3D X .75=3D20 and 2" X 1"). ----- =3D Original=3D20 Message ----- From: Gary=3D20 Boothe To: pietenpol-list@matron= ics.com=3D =3D20 Sent: =3D Monday, February=3D20 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE:=3D20 Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took = =3D off for the=3D20 week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear = cabanes. It =3D measures=3D20 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the = postal=3D20 scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, =3D = mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down=3D85) -----Original Message----- From: = owner-pi= etenpol=3D -list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To:=3D20 pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky=3D20 Scout... Krause"=3D20 Shad, Thanks for the comments on the = struts. =3D I will=3D20 probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I = =3D really=3D20 enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go = that=3D20 way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero =3D Reference. =3D20 The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can = =3D probably get=3D20 pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- = From: "shad bell"=3D20 <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To:=3D20 Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 = 5:33=3D20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky=3D20 Scout... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted = =3D by: shad=3D20 bell > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would = bet =3D wooden=3D20 struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, = and =3D steel end=3D20 fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for = the =3D older=3D20 metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions = =3D ours are,=3D20 some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall =3D thickness. =3D20 also check dillsburg aero works = > for tube prices, wicks is also having = a =3D special=3D20 "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I = can =3D look up=3D20 the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have = a =3D price=3D20 list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web =3D = site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > <=3D/PRE>http://=www.mat=3Dronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List&=l t;=3DB><=3D/PRE>http://forums.matronics.com=3D<=3D/PRE>=3Dhttp: //www.matronic=s.com/c=3Dontribution<=3D/PRE> href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://ww= w.mat=3Dronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhref=3D3D"http://forums.ma tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com= href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.= com/c=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3 D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3Dhref=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://www=.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-L ist3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3Dhref=3D'3D"http://forums.matronics.c om"'>http://forums.matronics.com3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3 D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3 D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3Dhref= 3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c=om /contribution3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3 D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3 D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=3D ~=B2=03r 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3Dhref='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://w ww.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://forums.m atronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://www.matr onics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ~=B2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ r http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: VAHOWDY(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
On the Scout I'm building I ran a second set of cables for the tail wheel. One thing I learned is that the control horn should have about the same cable to cable distance as the rudder horn. Longer makes the wheel travel less than the rudder and shorter make the wheel travel further. The first one I made was short, it made the cable bend around the wheel. Howdy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Dillsburg Areo
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Thanks, Shad. I will do that. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 5:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dillsburg Areo Ray, and others, The PH number for Dillsburg Aeroworks is 717-432-4589, they have the best price on pretty much any size tubing you need. Mr Vogalsong (The owner) is an old timer who knows his stuff (From what I gather) has built 1 or 2 airplanes, bicycles etc etc. Give him a call and have him send you a price sheet on his inventory. He caries some AN hardware, plumbing fittings and other odds and ends. FYI, to get his best prices you will want to buy full lengths of tubing, 16-18ft ea. He will cut to 8ft so it can be shipped UPS, for no charge. Give him a call. Shad ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Thanks, Santiago. Guess I have a lot of things to consider, now. Somehow, I am not convinced that round struts would be any worse than the streamlined struts. The Piets are pretty draggy! Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: santiago morete To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Hi Ray, I think you can use 4130 steel, 1025 steel, aluminum or wood, round or streamlined struts, all that has been used successfully. My round, 1025 steel struts weigh about 5 pounds each. Saludos Santiago ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Larry Williams, Aluminum struts
Date: Feb 24, 2010
Michael, Thanks for the photo. These struts look great. The metal work looks pretty easy, too. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:06 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Larry Williams, Aluminum struts As always, Chris Tracy's Westcoastpiet.com 'pictures' web site comes in with excellent value. For more photos go there, under Larry Williams. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Ray, You could consider a built up spar like attached. They are a lot of work but strong and just a bit less expensive that solid. There are more pictures at www.textors.com. Jack DSM Thanks, Gary. The wing is exactly the same, except 27" shorter. Routing would be a lot of work, but doable. The ribs I got with the other wood are all built and seem to be made for the 1" spar. I will have to make a decision on which way to go. I have been putting in hard points in the fuselage for the seat and shoulder safety belts; thankfully I only need one set! I put the hard pints one station behind the seat, so I will have to find the right seat belts to fit. ACS has some that might work, when I get that far. Got the turtle deck mostly done today, that was fun. Thanks for the help. Ray Krause P.S. Guess I will have to take the Waiex to the Peit fly in. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe <mailto:gboothe5(at)comcast.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... No problem, Ray. I took your meaning to be, would the same information apply to a Sky Scout. Having never seen Sky Scout plans, I could not say, with real authority, that a =BE=94 spar is OK for the Sky Scout; however, it is my understanding that the two airplanes are very similar, maybe even the same wing. Lots of conversations on this list point out that vintage aircraft such as the T-craft or Piper Cub, have used an assortment of spar materials, =BE=94 thick. It is my recollection that the same conversation led to the agreement that, after routing, you basically end up with a =BE=94 spar, anyhow. Please, someone (I know this is a bashful group), if I have mis-directed Ray, please jump in! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks. I became confused answering all the e-mails that I started with these questions. I know that you are building an Air Camper! Thanks for the info on the spars. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Negative. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, February 23, = 2010 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for = spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _____ From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net&g= t; Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 =3D = 3:17=3D20 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Ray, Your=3D20 questions are intelligent and = educated=3D85.attributes to which I make =3D no personal=3D20 claim. In all honesty, I perused = the West Coast Piet web site to =3D exhaustion.=3D20 Too bad Chris Tracy doesn=3D92t have sponsors, or he=3D92d be a rich man! =3D After=3D20 looking at every = application of wood strut that has been built and is =3D flying,=3D20 I decided = it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went =3D from ash=3D20 = to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I liked the look of =3D hickory = and=3D20 the decision was that easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = =3D for=3D20 steel. Later=3D20 conversations with another builder (either = Cliff Dawson or Douwe =3D Blumberg),=3D20 far more intelligent and = educated than I, showed published =3D strengths of=3D20 various woods, and = verified that hickory had plenty of strength for =3D our=3D20 purposes. I think I = can find that email, but it=3D92s on my other =3D computer at=3D20 home. My=3D20 wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the = shape and size on the =3D plans.=3D20 Connections will surely be similar to = Douwe=3D92s. All cabanes and wing =3D struts are=3D20 laminated because=3D85.that=3D92s what everyone does! Really, it gives you =3D an=3D20 opportunity to rotate the = grain and eliminate the possibility of =3D having a weak=3D20 link. Also, it = looks really cool! My=3D20 wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in = Auburn, Ca (California=3D20 Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale purchasing = in whatever length =3D and size=3D20 needed. He even mills, if necessary. He = located my fir spars and sold =3D all four=3D20 for $185!! Bonus is that he helped = build some wood airplanes and knows =3D what=3D20 grains to look = for. Further=3D20 note: If anything goes wrong, = I=3D92ll blame Chris Tracy for =3D publishing all=3D20 those = photos! Gary=3D20 Boothe Cool,=3D20 CA Pietenpol WW=3D20 Corvair Conversion Tail=3D20 done, Fuselage on gear 18=3D20 ribs done From:=3D20 owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = =3D Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM Subject: = Re: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Gary, If I made =3D these 22"=3D20 struts (front/center) from metal, they would = weigh 22+ ounces without =3D the=3D20 ends. How did you decide on the thickness and shape for the struts? =3D Why did=3D20 you chose Hickory versus, say = ash? Did you laminate because you =3D needed=3D20 to get to a certain = thickness, or for strength? There is a =3D source for=3D20 hickory and ash that = has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I =3D got some=3D20 1" ash for = 2.37 per board foot. Are your =3D "flying=3D20 struts" (the long struts) also hickory? What=3D20 shape? Thanks, Ray=3D20 Krause. P.S. The =3D aerostream=3D20 tubing is very expensive, about $56.00 per front strut ($28.00/ft and =3D .7593=3D20 lbs/ft). Wicks has it for $17.00/ft = right now. I am not sure of its =3D quality.=3D20 None of the aerotubing matches = the recommended sizes on the plans (1.5 =3D X .75=3D20 and 2" X 1"). ----- =3D Original=3D20 Message ----- From: Gary=3D20 Boothe Sent: =3D Monday, February=3D20 22, 2010 7:31 AM Subject: RE:=3D20 Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, I had a couple free minutes before I took = =3D off for the=3D20 week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear = cabanes. It =3D measures=3D20 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use the postal=3D20 scales!). Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion, =3D = mounted Tail done, Fuselage on gear (18 ribs down=3D85) -----Original Message----- From: = owner-pi= etenpol=3D -list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray=3D20 Krause Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM To:=3D20 pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky=3D20 Scout... Shad, Thanks for the comments on the = struts. =3D I will=3D20 probably go with the 4130 struts from Wicks. It is just that I = =3D really=3D20 enjoy the wood working. If the wood were comparable, I would maybe go = that=3D20 way. I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero =3D Reference. =3D20 The size of the metal struts is included in the plans; so I can = =3D probably get=3D20 pretty close to the right size. Thanks for your help. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- = From: "shad bell"=3D20 <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> To:=3D20 Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 = 5:33=3D20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky=3D20 Scout... > --> Pietenpol-List message posted = =3D by: shad=3D20 bell > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would = bet =3D wooden=3D20 struts are heavier than > streamlined tube. The bolts, = and =3D steel end=3D20 fittings that would be > required add up fast. As for = the =3D older=3D20 metal designation, just usse 4130, > If you need I can see what dimensions = =3D ours are,=3D20 some where in the 2 inch > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall =3D thickness. =3D20 also check dillsburg aero works = > for tube prices, wicks is also having = a =3D special=3D20 "sale" on streamlined > tubing of some dimensions. I = can =3D look up=3D20 the number for Dillsburg Aero > Works in PA if you need me to, I have = a =3D price=3D20 list out in my hanger, he > does not have a web =3D = site. > > > Shad > > > > > > > > <=3D /PRE> http:// www.mat=3D ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List & lt;=3D B><=3D /PRE> http://forums.matronics.com=3D <=3D /PRE> =3D http://www.matronic s.com/c=3D ontribution <=3D /PRE> href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://ww= w.mat=3D ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href=3D3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.= com/c=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://w ww .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D href=3D'3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics .c om/contribution 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= 3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D 3D ~=B2=03r 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http://www .matr onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c om/co ntribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ~=B2 _____ r http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
From: "bill55" <bliimatainen(at)antennaplus.com>
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Dan, We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead (this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take long to realize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (due to time constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as Dennis Hall on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swivel design of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys and ground handles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows how to get into my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rudder but am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) Bill Liimatainen Monroe, Wisconsin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288111#288111 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: H RULE <harvey.rule(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
I to was worried about the horns on the tail rudder section so I removed th e the whole thing and I plan on running cables down to the tail wheel horn from the rudder peddles.I didn't like the ideas of all that pressure on the wood.Had it have been made out of metal I wouldn't think twice about using the horn on it.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: bil l55 =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASen t: Thu, February 25, 2010 6:47:17 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerab bill55" =0A=0ADan,=0A=0AWe just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead (this past Novemb er) and originally had the tail skid.- It did not take long to realize we needed a steerable tail wheel!- We used a Ken Perkins design (due to tim e constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as Denni s Hall on his Aircamper).- The process worked great except for the full s wivel design of the tail wheel.- I machined that out and the airplane fly s and ground handles great.- Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as any one knows how to get into my hangar.- I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rudder but am convinced this is logical solution (and p ossibly lighter?) =0A=0ABill Liimatainen=0AMonroe, Wisconsin=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A Read this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ==== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
That settles it, I already have some light weight springs I bought from Mc masters. Hook to rudder! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: bill55 <bliimatainen(at)antennaplus.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 5:47 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder om> Dan, We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brod head this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take lon g to ealize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (du e to ime constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as De nnis all on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swive l esign of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys and gr ound andles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows how to get nto my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rud der ut am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) Bill Liimatainen onroe, Wisconsin ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288111#288111 ======================== =========== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Ray, put 1/2" wide 1/8" plywood doublers on either side of your 3/4" spar at each rib station and the problem is solved. This is what I'm doing on mine, since I inherited 3/4" spars when I bought the project. Keeping the rib openings at 1" allows you to slide them over all the doubler plates for the lift strut attachment fittings, wing tip a bow attach fittings, etc. If you make the openings 3/4", then you have to slide all the ribs on & then glue all the doublers in place, which seems like a trickier prospect than being able to glue them on with the spar laying flat on a bench. Kip Gardner On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Ray Krause wrote: > Thanks, Gary. > > The wing is exactly the same, except 27" shorter. Routing would be > a lot of work, but doable. The ribs I got with the other wood are > all built and seem to be made for the 1" spar. I will have to make > a decision on which way to go. > > I have been putting in hard points in the fuselage for the seat and > shoulder safety belts; thankfully I only need one set! I put the > hard pints one station behind the seat, so I will have to find the > right seat belts to fit. ACS has some that might work, when I get > that far. Got the turtle deck mostly done today, that was fun. > > Thanks for the help. > > Ray Krause > > P.S. Guess I will have to take the Waiex to the Peit fly in. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Boothe > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:59 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > No problem, Ray. I took your meaning to be, would the same > information apply to a Sky Scout. Having never seen Sky Scout > plans, I could not say, with real authority, that a =BE=94 spar is OK > for the Sky Scout; however, it is my understanding that the two > airplanes are very similar, maybe even the same wing. Lots of > conversations on this list point out that vintage aircraft such as > the T-craft or Piper Cub, have used an assortment of spar > materials, =BE=94 thick. It is my recollection that the same > conversation led to the agreement that, after routing, you > basically end up with a =BE=94 spar, anyhow. > > Please, someone (I know this is a bashful group), if I have mis- > directed Ray, please jump in! > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > 18 ribs done > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner- > pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:29 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > Gary, > > Thanks. I became confused answering all the e-mails that I started > with these questions. I know that you are building an Air Camper! > Thanks for the info on the spars. > > Ray Krause > ----- Original Message ----- > From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:15 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > Negative. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > Gary, > > Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, > would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are > you building a Sky Scout? > > Ray Krause > ----- Original Message ----- > From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com= > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, = 2010 9:15 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... > > Ray, > > FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for = spars. > > Gary > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net&g= t; > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > Thanks, Gary. > > I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! > Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! > > The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 > well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of > =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! > As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood > I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. > But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D > will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood > to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes > Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain > fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, > too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. > =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than > hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. > > Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 > Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my > eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! > > Ray > ----- Original Message ----- > From:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe > To: pietenpol-list@matronics= .com=3D =3D20 > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 =3D = 3:17=3D20 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... > > Ray, > > Your=3D20 questions are intelligent and = educated=3D85.attributes > to which I make =3D no personal=3D20 claim. In all honesty, I > perused = the West Coast Piet web site to =3D exhaustion.=3D20 > Too bad Chris Tracy = doesn=3D92t have sponsors, or he=3D92d be > a rich man! =3D After=3D20 looking at every = application of > wood strut that has been built and is =3D flying,=3D20 I decided = > it was doable. Conversations about appropriate woods went =3D > from ash=3D20 = to spruce, including hickory. I decided that I > liked the look of =3D hickory = and=3D20 the decision was that > easy. For size, I just used the plans dimensions = =3D for=3D20= 20 > steel. > > Later=3D20 conversations with another builder (either = Cliff > Dawson or Douwe =3D Blumberg),=3D20 far more intelligent and = > educated than I, showed published =3D strengths of=3D20 various > woods, and = verified that hickory had plenty of strength for > =3D our=3D20 purposes. I think I = can find that email, but > it=3D92s on my other =3D computer at=3D20 home. > > My=3D20 wing struts will also be hickory, roughly the = shape > and size on the =3D plans.=3D20 Connections will surely be > similar to = Douwe=3D92s. All cabanes and wing =3D struts > are=3D20 laminated = because=3D85.that=3D92s what everyone does! > Really, it gives you =3D an=3D20 opportunity to rotate the = grain > and eliminate the possibility of =3D having a weak=3D20 link. > Also, it = looks really cool! > > My=3D20 wood source is a local hardwood supplier, in = Auburn, > Ca (California=3D20 Hardwoods), who does his own wholesale > purchasing = in whatever length =3D and size=3D20 needed. He > even mills, if necessary. He = located my fir spars and sold =3D > all four=3D20 for $185!! Bonus is that he helped = build some > wood airplanes and knows =3D what=3D20 grains to look = for. > > Further=3D20 note: If anything goes wrong, = I=3D92ll blame > Chris Tracy for =3D publishing all=3D20 those = photos! > > Gary=3D20 Boothe > > Cool,=3D20 CA > > Pietenpol > > WW=3D20 Corvair Conversion > > Tail=3D20 done, Fuselage on gear > > 18=3D20 ribs done > > From:=3D20 owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = > =3D Ray=3D20 Krause > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:51 PM > To: =3D pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: = Re: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... > > Gary, > > If I made =3D these 22"=3D20 struts (front/center) from metal, > they would = weigh 22+ ounces without =3D the=3D20 ends. How did > you decide on the = thickness and shape for the struts? =3D Why > did=3D20 you chose Hickory versus, say = ash? Did you laminate > because you =3D needed=3D20 to get to a certain = thickness, or > for strength? There is a =3D source for=3D20 hickory and ash > that = has 2" (8/4) material in Chico, I think. I =3D got > some=3D20 1" ash for = 2.37 per board foot. > > Are your =3D "flying=3D20 struts" (the long struts) also > hickory? = What=3D20 shape? > > Thanks, > > Ray=3D20 Krause. > > P.S. The =3D aerostream=3D20 tubing is very expensive, about > $56.00 per = front strut ($28.00/ft and =3D .7593=3D20 lbs/ft). > Wicks has it for $17.00/ft = right now. I am not sure of its =3D > quality.=3D20 None of the aerotubing matches = the recommended > sizes on the plans (1.5 =3D X .75=3D20 and 2" X 1"). > > ----- =3D Original=3D20 Message ----- > > From: Gary=3D20 Boothe > > To: pietenpol-list@matron= ics.com=3D =3D20 > > Sent: =3D Monday, February=3D20 22, 2010 7:31 AM > > Subject: RE:=3D20 Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... > > Ray, > > I had a couple free minutes before I took = =3D off for the=3D20 > week. It took 10 seconds to pull off one of the rear = cabanes. It > =3D measures=3D20 21" end-to-end, and weighs 18 oz (had to use > the = postal=3D20 scales!). > > Gary Boothe > > Cool, Ca. > > Pietenpol > > WW Corvair Conversion, =3D = mounted > > Tail done, Fuselage on gear > > (18 ribs down=3D85) > > -----Original Message----- > From: = owner-pi= etenpol=3D -list-server(at)matronics.com=3D20 > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of = > Ray=3D20 Krause > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:54 PM > To:=3D20 pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky=3D20 Scout... > > > > Shad, > > Thanks for the comments on the = struts. =3D I will=3D20 > probably go with the 4130 > > struts from Wicks. It is just that I = =3D really=3D20 enjoy > the wood working. If the > > wood were comparable, I would maybe go = that=3D20 way. > > I would appreciate the Dillsburg Aero =3D Reference. =3D20 The > size of the metal > > struts is included in the plans; so I can = =3D probably > get=3D20 pretty close to the > > right size. > > Thanks for your help. > > Ray Krause > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "shad bell"=3D20 <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> > > To:=3D20 > > Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 = 5:33=3D20 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky=3D20 Scout... > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted = =3D by: shad=3D20 bell > > > > > > > > > > Ray, I am not 100% sure but I would = bet =3D wooden=3D20 > struts are heavier than > > > streamlined tube. The bolts, = and =3D steel end=3D20 > fittings that would be > > > required add up fast. As for = the =3D older=3D20 metal > designation, just usse 4130, > > > If you need I can see what dimensions = =3D ours are,=3D20 > some where in the 2 inch > > > by 9/16 (minor axis) .049 wall =3D thickness. =3D20 also check > dillsburg aero works > > > for tube prices, wicks is also having = a =3D special=3D20 > "sale" on streamlined > > > tubing of some dimensions. I = can =3D look up=3D20 the > number for Dillsburg Aero > > > Works in PA if you need me to, I have = a =3D price=3D20 list > out in my hanger, he > > > does not have a web =3D = site. > > > > > > > > > Shad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <=3D > /PRE> > http:// > www.mat=3D > ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > & > lt;=3D > B><=3D > /PRE> > http://forums.matronics.com=3D > <=3D > /PRE> > =3D > http://www.matronic > s.com/c=3D > ontribution > <=3D > /PRE> > > > href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http:// > ww > w.mat=3D > ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href=3D3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href=3D3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics. > com/c=3D > > > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D > href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol- > List"'>http://www > .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D > href=3D'3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D > href=3D'3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http:// > www.matronics.c > om/contribution > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > 3D=3D > 3D > > > ~=B2=03r > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"'>http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http:// > www.matronics.com/contribution > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 > D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > ~=B2 > r > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:// > www.matronics.com/c > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Guys, if you don't already have the original Flying & Glider Manuals, you should get a copy by all means. Besides the Air Camper and Sky Scout plans and details, there are a whole bunch of other interesting aircraft in them, well worth your time to peruse. And for whoever mentioned that they didn't think there was much difference in drag between round and streamline tubing, there really is. I can dig up the old aircraft design manual that has a graph of relative drag between round, simple teardrop, streamline, and one or two other shapes. It's significant. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Once upon a time I'd heard from others wiser than I that the two springs should be different. This is so they apply unequal forces on the tailwheel and put a light loading on the linkages. Otherwise, a force-neutral setup could allow an unwanted oscillation which could ruin your day. Picture the flutter that would happen if your elevator weren't loaded to one side; same concept. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- From: helspersew(at)aol.com Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:35 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder That settles it, I already have some light weight springs I bought from Mcmasters. Hook to rudder! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. -----Original Message----- From: bill55 <bliimatainen(at)antennaplus.com> Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 5:47 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder Dan, We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead (this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take long to realize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (due to time constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as Dennis Hall on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swivel design of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys and ground handles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows how to get into my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rudder but am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) Bill Liimatainen Monroe, Wisconsin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288111#288111 =================================== t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =================================== tp://forums.matronics.com =================================== _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Dick's new Piet
Date: Feb 25, 2010
So Dick, What engine are you using? is this an aircamper or a scout? I'm always interested in different engines. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Dan, I made a double horn for rudder and tailwheel steering so the torsional load from the tailwheel would not have to travel through wood. Also since the rudder horn is moved to the bottom of the rudder I added some extra support to spread the load up the rudder. The horns are constructed like Pietenpols, two pieces of .032 edge welded. The attached picture is the current status of the project, so the design has not been flight tested. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 2/24/2010 7:48:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder Hi Guys, I have been wrestling with the engineering of making my free-castoring tailwheel into a steerable type. The conventional wisdom on this list has been that one should not connect the tailwheel with the rudder, as per the Aeronca Champ, and many others of that era, due to the fact (?) that the wooden rudder is not strong enough to handle the loads. I see that Ken Perkin's Time Machine is set-up just that way. Any new thoughts on this subject? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Subject: Doesn't the GN-1 Grega have a beefed up rudder to steer
the tailwheel ? In looking at photos of uncovered GN-1 rudders I have seen they beef them u p to handle the tailwheel steering horn down low. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the GN-1 Grega Air Camper uses the rudder to steer the tailwheel. The GN-1 tied out at my home airport for 30+ years had this rudder/tailwhee l steering setup. It is now in Elizabeth City, NC being restored and a set of wire wheels and streamlined steel tube landing gear legs put on that are painted up to resemble streamlined wood gear legs. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Not necessary. The tailwheel assembly has some friction; that dampens the system and reduces the liklihood of oscillation. Check out the local production taildraggers. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > Once upon a time I'd heard from others wiser than I that the two springs should be different. This is so they apply unequal forces on the tailwheel and put a light loading on the linkages. Otherwise, a force-neutral setup could allow an unwanted oscillation which could ruin your day. Picture the flutter that would happen if your elevator weren't loaded to one side; same concept. > > Jim Ash > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: helspersew(at)aol.com > Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:35 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > > That settles it, I already have some light weight springs I bought from Mcmasters. Hook to rudder! > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bill55 <bliimatainen(at)antennaplus.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 5:47 am > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > > > Dan, > > We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead > (this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take long to > realize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (due to > time constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as Dennis > Hall on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swivel > design of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys and ground > handles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows how to get > into my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rudder > but am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) > > Bill Liimatainen > Monroe, Wisconsin > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288111#288111 > > > > > > > > > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > tp://forums.matronics.com > > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Regardless of whether the forces travel through wood or steel and over what distance, my concern with this type of set-up is whether the bottom hinge installation is sufficient to the task. The original design is sufficient for flying loads. Now we're asking that hinge and its attachments to take a bashing from everything the tailwheel runs over and up against. Is the original design up to the task? I've seen some rudder hinge installations that clearly can take it (Skip's sure looks stout enough). I would not trust the one on our Piet. -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Subject: Dick's two cylinder Harley engine
Here's a company who specializes in using Harley engines in airplanes. Cool idea Dick ! It sounds pretty cool in this video too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSTRlAx_YSc ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Doesn't the GN-1 Grega have a beefed up rudder to
steer the tailwheel ?
Date: Feb 25, 2010
You are correct Mike. Grega uses Pietenpols tail feather design, actually looks like copies of Hoopman's 1934 drawings. Grega filled in the bottom rudder gusset with spruce and also filled in between the lowest rudder rib capstrips from the LE to main beam with spruce and than bolts the rudder horn to this spruce fill-in. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] Sent: 2/25/2010 10:24:27 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doesn't the GN-1 Grega have a beefed up rudder to steer the tailwheel ? In looking at photos of uncovered GN-1 rudders I have seen they beef them up to handle the tailwheel steering horn down low. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe the GN-1 Grega Air Camper uses the rudder to steer the tailwheel. The GN-1 tied out at my home airport for 30+ years had this rudder/tailwheel steering setup. It is now in Elizabeth City, NC being restored and a set of wire wheels and streamlined steel tube landing gear legs put on that are painted up to resemble streamlined wood gear legs. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Newest Piet video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Tzms7Qxe8 -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: santiago morete <moretesantiago(at)yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Sky Scout...
Ray, - Round-tube are structurally better than streamlined struts,-subjected t o-compression, but they are less efficient aerodynamically, as Oscar said .- I chose round struts because that's what I can afford :-) Attached is a photo of a beautiful Piet with round lift struts and streamli ned-cabanes. Saludos - Santiago=0A=0A=0A Yahoo! Cocina=0A=0AEncontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina.=0A=0A=0Ahttp://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Excellent design Skip. I know we are not supposed to change anything from the Piet plans but since the plans do not include a tailwheel (and a left and right cable running to a tailwheel control horn), I think we can give Skip official dispensation here. I think this design simplifies and improves the design of any Piet incorporating a tailwheel and is based on a flight proven design (the GN-1). I will do it this way on my next Piet project. Rick On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Skip Gadd wrote: > Dan, > I made a double horn for rudder and tailwheel steering so the torsional load > from the tailwheel would not have to travel through wood. Also since the > rudder horn is moved to the bottom of the rudder I added some extra support > to spread the load up the rudder. The horns are constructedlike > Pietenpols, two pieces of .032 edge welded. The attached picture is the > current status of the project, so the design has not been flight tested. > Skip > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: 2/24/2010 7:48:58 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > Hi Guys, > > I have been wrestling with the engineering of making my free-castoring > tailwheel into a steerable type. The conventional wisdom on this list has > been that one should not connect the tailwheel with the rudder, as per the > Aeronca Champ, and many others of that era, due to the fact (?) that the > wooden rudder is not strong enough to handle the loads. I see that Ken > Perkin's Time Machine is set-up just that way. > > Any new thoughts on this subject? > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Piet Pitts Death Ray
Very few videos have a Pietenpol, a Pitts Special, and a Tesla Death Ray in them. Oh, and beer! Don't forget the beer! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Tzms7Qxe8 Enjoy! -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Looks clean, Skip! Looking beyond your tail.you're not related to the 'Clampetts', are you? Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Skip Gadd Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:13 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder Dan, I made a double horn for rudder and tailwheel steering so the torsional load from the tailwheel would not have to travel through wood. Also since the rudder horn is moved to the bottom of the rudder I added some extra support to spread the load up the rudder. The horns are constructed like Pietenpols, two pieces of .032 edge welded. The attached picture is the current status of the project, so the design has not been flight tested. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 2/24/2010 7:48:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder Hi Guys, I have been wrestling with the engineering of making my free-castoring tailwheel into a steerable type. The conventional wisdom on this list has been that one should not connect the tailwheel with the rudder, as per the Aeronca Champ, and many others of that era, due to the fact (?) that the wooden rudder is not strong enough to handle the loads. I see that Ken Perkin's Time Machine is set-up just that way. Any new thoughts on this subject? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. <> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Piet Pitts Death Ray
Sorry for the double (triple?) post. Email is being weird this morning...That and I'm a luddite. -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Subject: Outstanding video Jeff ! Piet Pitts Death Ray
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Tzms7Qxe8 This is a must-see Jeff Boatright Production. Loved the music, the fast forwarding during mundane scenes, the captions, the pirate music and change of paces---most excellent Jeff ! Love the boo's, the cheers, the heckling from the crowd during your stall serious. Now here is a guy with a John Hofmann sense of humor, AKA John's outstanding video: Tribute to Jim Markle which still brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it. Mike C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Round less efficient true, but at Piet speeds probably equates to a fraction of an mph. On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:10 AM, santiago morete < moretesantiago(at)yahoo.com.ar> wrote: > Ray, > > Round tube are structurally better than streamlined struts, subjected > to compression, but they are less efficient aerodynamically, as Oscar said. > I chose round struts because that's what I can afford :-) > Attached is a photo of a beautiful Piet with round lift struts and > streamlined cabanes. > Saludos > > Santiago > > ------------------------------ > > Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. > http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
A couple of friends had a Pup on which that they put streamlined covers on the round struts. Made a big difference in climb rate, of all things, and some difference in top speed (which is hardly the point for a Pup). They were both real surprised with the climb, though. -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Dick's two cylinder Harley engine
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Hi Mike Thats the model I was looking at. I talked with them at SNF and OSH a couple of years ago and have been watching them since. I got a bit of bad news about them last year, but they seem to have things worked out a bit on that front. Do you remember the harley engine down on the other end of the field at Brodhead? That was another good installation.. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:07 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dick's two cylinder Harley engine Here's a company who specializes in using Harley engines in airplanes. Cool idea Dick ! It sounds pretty cool in this video too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSTRlAx_YSc ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Outstanding video Jeff ! Piet Pitts Death Ray
Glad you liked it. I had fun with the flying and making the video. And that Piet is out or rig! Really! The ball was centered! Drat you Red Baron!! -- Jeff Boatright "Now let's think about this..." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Dick's new Piet
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Hi Douwe Check out Mike Cuys post with the Harley. I'm checking on where to have all of the chroming done for the struts and all at this point. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dick's new Piet > > > So Dick, > > What engine are you using? is this an aircamper or a scout? I'm always > interested in different engines. > > Douwe > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jim Ash <ashcan(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
My J-3 had the basic hard-rubber wheel, which has since been replaced with a Scott full-swivel. That was the answer I got when I questioned why the springs on the new one weren't the same. Jim -----Original Message----- From: David Paule Sent: Feb 25, 2010 10:38 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder Not necessary. The tailwheel assembly has some friction; that dampens the system and reduces the liklihood of oscillation. Check out the local production taildraggers. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > Once upon a time I'd heard from others wiser than I that the two springs should be different. This is so they apply unequal forces on the tailwheel and put a light loading on the linkages. Otherwise, a force-neutral setup could allow an unwanted oscillation which could ruin your day. Picture the flutter that would happen if your elevator weren't loaded to one side; same concept. > > Jim Ash > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: helspersew(at)aol.com > Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:35 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > > That settles it, I already have some light weight springs I bought from Mcmasters. Hook to rudder! > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bill55 <bliimatainen(at)antennaplus.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 5:47 am > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > > > Dan, > > We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead > (this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take long to > realize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (due to > time constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as Dennis > Hall on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swivel > design of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys and ground > handles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows how to get > into my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rudder > but am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) > > Bill Liimatainen > Monroe, Wisconsin > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288111#288111 > > > > > > > > ========== > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========== > tp://forums.matronics.com > ========== > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > > ========== > Pietenpol-List Un/Subscription, > --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List bsp; via the href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com bsp; - generous support! > bsp; href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Dick's new Piet
Chroming for your struts? Many years ago I had a Harley with a lot of custom plating (chrome and gold) that was done at a place in Padukah KY, Brown's Plating I think. They've been around forever. Might be worth checking on for a source of your plating...I think I actually saw the place mentioned somewhere not long ago so their probably still around.... -----Original Message----- >From: Dick N <horzpool(at)goldengate.net> >Sent: Feb 25, 2010 11:28 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dick's new Piet > > >Hi Douwe >Check out Mike Cuys post with the Harley. I'm checking on where to have all >of the chroming done for the struts and all at this point. >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> >To: "pietenpolgroup" >Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:54 AM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dick's new Piet > > >> >> >> So Dick, >> >> What engine are you using? is this an aircamper or a scout? I'm always >> interested in different engines. >> >> Douwe >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Subject: Re: Dick's two cylinder Harley engine
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Still have a "HogAir" tshirt I got a SNF a few years ago, had a Harley demo engine there at the time. Don't know if they are around anymore. On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Dick N wrote: > Hi Mike > Thats the model I was looking at. I talked with them at SNF and OSH a > couple of years ago and have been watching them since. I got a bit of bad > news about them last year, but they seem to have things worked out a bit on > that front. Do you remember the harley engine down on the other end of the > field at Brodhead? That was another good installation.. > Dick N. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC Aerospace Corporation] > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:07 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dick's two cylinder Harley engine > > Heres a company who specializes in using Harley engines in airplanes. > > > Cool idea Dick ! It sounds pretty cool in this video too. > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSTRlAx_YSc > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado "Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Thanks Gary and Rick. Jeff, those hinges were made by Don Harper, he is a machinist and makes some beautiful stuff. Don is a Piet builder and helps in the Sun & Fun wood shop and will probably have some hinges, gas tank filler necks, aircraft tie downs and his other stuff down there this spring. Gary, you can never have too many ;^) Skip ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Yes, let's think about this. With the Piet, it's never about going faster. The airframe feels most comfortable in a band of airspeed around 65-80 MPH and we're not trying to make it go faster by reducing drag. The force that opposes drag is thrust, and it's excess thrust that provides climb. As your friend has discovered, if you reduce drag you have more excess thrust available to help you climb. And we all know that most Piets can use all the help they can get in climb, especially when high/hot/heavy. -------- Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX Air Camper NX41CC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288189#288189 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 25, 2010
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri(at)emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
So streamlined tubing is good, right? :) Reducing drag also lets you go the same speed using less thrust and we all know where thrust comes from: Your bank account! (BTW, for Larry, it is ALWAYS about going faster... >:-}) > >Yes, let's think about this. With the Piet, it's never about going >faster. The airframe feels most comfortable in a band of airspeed >around 65-80 MPH and we're not trying to make it go faster by >reducing drag. The force that opposes drag is thrust, and it's >excess thrust that provides climb. As your friend has discovered, >if you reduce drag you have more excess thrust available to help you >climb. And we all know that most Piets can use all the help they >can get in climb, especially when high/hot/heavy. > >-------- >Oscar Zuniga >San Antonio, TX >Air Camper NX41CC > -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 25, 2010
You can glue streamlined balsa to the round strut and wrap it with fabric tape and dope it. That's an old idea that was common back when. Worked well, too. It replaces material cost with labor to achieve the result. If anyone wants a photo I'll try to take one next time I'm at the airport. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: santiago morete To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:10 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, Round tube are structurally better than streamlined struts, subjected to compression, but they are less efficient aerodynamically, as Oscar said. I chose round struts because that's what I can afford :-) Attached is a photo of a beautiful Piet with round lift struts and streamlined cabanes. Saludos Santiago ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Feb 25, 2010
A round strut is very un-aerodynamic...ish. Applying streamline fairings to round struts on a draggy airplane like a Piet will most likely result in a speed increase of several MPH, (not a fraction of a MPH). I have spoken with a Piet owner who flew with round struts for many years, and was very pleased with the results when he added the fairings. See the following link for an article about this very topic. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=50119&highlight=streamline Using round tubes for the struts is a good way to keep costs down, but it would be a really good idea to take the time to add streamline fairings to them. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288203#288203 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David Paule" <dpaule(at)frii.com>
Subject: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder
Date: Feb 25, 2010
I thought about this some more and decided that springs of different spring constants would have no effect. This is because the net torque about the steering axis is the same. To verify this, I made a simple finite element model and sure enough, with two identical springs I got a certain natural frequency. With one spring slightly lower and one spring slightly higher in value, adding to the same total amount, the resulting natural frequency was identical. Just use two springs the same, life is simpler that way. It's damping that prevents the shimmy. David Paule ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan(at)earthlink.net> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > Once upon a time I'd heard from others wiser than I that the two springs should be different. This is so they apply unequal forces on the tailwheel and put a light loading on the linkages. Otherwise, a force-neutral setup could allow an unwanted oscillation which could ruin your day. Picture the flutter that would happen if your elevator weren't loaded to one side; same concept. > > Jim Ash > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: helspersew(at)aol.com > Sent: Feb 25, 2010 7:35 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > > That settles it, I already have some light weight springs I bought from Mcmasters. Hook to rudder! > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bill55 <bliimatainen(at)antennaplus.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2010 5:47 am > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable tailwheel- hooked to rudder > > > > Dan, > > We just finished and test flew the Model A powered Sky Scout based in Brodhead > (this past November) and originally had the tail skid. It did not take long to > realize we needed a steerable tail wheel! We used a Ken Perkins design (due to > time constraint) and attached to the lower rudder with light springs (as Dennis > Hall on his Aircamper). The process worked great except for the full swivel > design of the tail wheel. I machined that out and the airplane flys and ground > handles great. Feel free to check it out at Brodhead as anyone knows how to get > into my hangar. I was always apprehensive about the horns on the lower rudder > but am convinced this is logical solution (and possibly lighter?) > > Bill Liimatainen > Monroe, Wisconsin > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288111#288111 > > > > > > > > > t" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > > tp://forums.matronics.com > > _blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Sky Scout...
Date: Feb 25, 2010
Kip, Man, there is a lot of information on this site! My life gets easier all the time! That would also save a lot of plywood AND work. Thanks for the suggestion. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Kip and Beth Gardner To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:56 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Ray, put 1/2" wide 1/8" plywood doublers on either side of your 3/4" spar at each rib station and the problem is solved. This is what I'm doing on mine, since I inherited 3/4" spars when I bought the project. Keeping the rib openings at 1" allows you to slide them over all the doubler plates for the lift strut attachment fittings, wing tip a bow attach fittings, etc. If you make the openings 3/4", then you have to slide all the ribs on & then glue all the doublers in place, which seems like a trickier prospect than being able to glue them on with the spar laying flat on a bench. Kip Gardner On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Ray Krause wrote: Thanks, Gary. The wing is exactly the same, except 27" shorter. Routing would be a lot of work, but doable. The ribs I got with the other wood are all built and seem to be made for the 1" spar. I will have to make a decision on which way to go. I have been putting in hard points in the fuselage for the seat and shoulder safety belts; thankfully I only need one set! I put the hard pints one station behind the seat, so I will have to find the right seat belts to fit. ACS has some that might work, when I get that far. Got the turtle deck mostly done today, that was fun. Thanks for the help. Ray Krause P.S. Guess I will have to take the Waiex to the Peit fly in. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Boothe To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... No problem, Ray. I took your meaning to be, would the same information apply to a Sky Scout. Having never seen Sky Scout plans, I could not say, with real authority, that a =BE=94 spar is OK for the Sky Scout; however, it is my understanding that the two airplanes are very similar, maybe even the same wing. Lots of conversations on this list point out that vintage aircraft such as the T-craft or Piper Cub, have used an assortment of spar materials, =BE=94 thick. It is my recollection that the same conversation led to the agreement that, after routing, you basically end up with a =BE=94 spar, anyhow. Please, someone (I know this is a bashful group), if I have mis-directed Ray, please jump in! Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, Fuselage on gear 18 ribs done From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:29 PM To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks. I became confused answering all the e-mails that I started with these questions. I know that you are building an Air Camper! Thanks for the info on the spars. Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Negative. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:24:54 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Gary, Thanks for the information. If = using the 3/4" spar material, would I still rout out the spar as shown in the = plans? Are you building a Sky Scout? Ray Krause ----- Original Message ----- From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com= Sent: Tuesday, February 23, = 2010 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: = Sky Scout... Ray, FYI...3/4" is an acceptable dimension for = spars. Gary Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ray Krause" <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net&g= t; Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 07:59:45 -0800 To: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout... Thanks, Gary. I will accept your humility with a = =3D grain of=3D20 salt! Your beautiful workmanship attests to your =3D abilities! The point about laminating to avoid = =3D wood defects is=3D20 well taken, I will follow suit. After = computing the costs of =3D the=3D20 metal struts, I am leaning towards the wood = struts! As far as the =3D spars=3D20 go, they were included in the wood I got = with the Sky Scout package; =3D they are=3D20 spruce. But rather than the 1" = thickness, they are 3/4", I think I =3D will=3D20 sandwich then with two pieces = of 1/8" birch plywood to get the 1" (so =3D they fit=3D20 the ribs). = The Hughes Hardwood =3D place in=3D20 Chico = had beautiful parallel grain fir that would have made beautiful =3D spars,=3D20 = cheap, too. Next time I am in Chico, I will check out the =3D = hickory. =3D20 The ash seems to be really dense/heavy (stronger than hickory?). = I =3D will=3D20 try to look it up. Thanks for the response. And yes, I = =3D have referenced=3D20 Chris's web site and printed many photos.... but it = makes my eyes and =3D brain=3D20 hurt! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From:=3D20 Gary=3D20 Boothe To: pietenpol-list@matronics= .com=3D =3D20 Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 =3D = 3:17=3D20 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: =3D Sky=3D20 = Scout... Ray, Your=3D20 questions are intelligent and = educated=3D85.attributes to which I make =3D no personal=3D20 claim. In all honesty, I perused = the West Coast Piet web site to =3D exhaustion.=3D20 Too bad Chris Tracy = doesn=3D92t have sponsors, or he=3D92d be a rich man! =3D After=3D20 looking at every = application of wood strut that has been built and is =3D flying,=3D20 I decided = it was doable.


February 22, 2010 - February 25, 2010

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-iw