Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-kt

September 18, 2011 - October 07, 2011



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From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Polyurethane paint coverage estimate
Date: Sep 18, 2011
To give you an idea. I did a '63 Ford Falcon Convertable last summer. A s hade less than 3 quarts of color and a Gallon of clear. And we put 5 good wet coats of clear on. (needed to wet sand and buff to mirror finnish). T hat was=2C of course=2C doing all the door jams and door edges where most o f the paint is lost. There is very little loss on an aircraft because it's mostly flat panels. Keep in mind though=2C With a high pressure gun only about 30-40% of the paint sticks to the surface. The rest is lost. Using an HVLP=2C 60-70% of the paint sticks. So if you were to "use" 3 gal of paint on an airplane=2C only 1 gal is actu ally "on" it. Minus the solvents. So=2C weight wise it's not as much as y ou would think. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio Date: Sun=2C 18 Sep 2011 11:27:30 -0700 From: aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Polyurethane paint coverage estimate Thanks Doug=2C I was thinking total finish coats would add up to about 4-5 gals. I don't think the difference in weight would be too bad=2C consideri ng it would only take about 1 1/2 cross coats to hide the silver=2C when us ing the same paint I have=2C 2 coats is usually enough on the jets=2C some times 3. It is a pain it the a$$ to strip though. Shad --- On Sun=2C 9/18/11=2C Doug Dever wrote: From: Doug Dever <helio400(at)yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Polyurethane paint coverage estimate Date: Sunday=2C September 18=2C 2011=2C 2:03 PM If I remember right=2C (it's been a long time) I think we used a little ove r 1 1/2 gal on the Tri-Pacers we did. That was after all the filler coats. My dad got field approval to use automotive urethane. We just put a flex agent in the paint. One of them that I know of still had the same paint j ob 25yrs later. No cracks. Still shined. I do not remember exactly how much weight it added. I think about 20lbs over the cotton and dope it repl aced. When I get farther along I plan on doing 1 yd test panels to see wha t rout I want to go. My .02 Doug From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sunday=2C September 18=2C 2011 12:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Polyurethane paint coverage estimate Group=2C I was wondering how many gallons of paint it takes to paint a piet sized airplane (polyurethane=2C high gloss) . I have a small bipe I am bu ilding=2C and I got a great price on 4 gallons of recently expired shelf li fe gloss red aircraft paint (free). With the price of paint especcially re d=2C It would save me close to $500+. All I would need would be to buy X a mout of gals of white aero thane and use red as a trim color. I really wan ted orange/white=2C but an orange-ish red and white would work to =2C on a jungster replica. Maybe do the Ernst Kessler style scheme for you Waldo Nu ts. I will sacrifice some of the paint to cover up a test panel to throw o ut in the sun for a year or so of sun and weather exposure to see if it adh eres and or cracks. Shad " rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenp ol-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution " rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenp ol-List et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
Date: Sep 18, 2011
It's not anything like this, is it? Clif > > During Oshkosh there is a wing jig available that is used to teach rib > stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to > learn how to tie these knots during Broadhead? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this plane?
From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 18, 2011
>From the odd curvature of the forward tube of the rudder, and the narrow landing gear, it's possible that this is a Albany-Washowski variant of a Longster. Radius of the rudder curve would have matched that of a maple tree in old Mr Washowski's back yard near Albany, MN, around that time. The engine isn't original, of course, assuming that's what this is. That looks like a VW in the picture. Don't think there were VW's back then (or plastic fuel tanks). Don't see the 3 cylinder Anzani's very much. No telling what kind of interesting stuff can be found in old Minnesota barns... - Pat -------- Patrick Hoyt 601XLb/Corvair N63PZ - 99.999% done.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352627#352627 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 18, 2011
I was thinking about building a jig. I'd use three or four piet ribs and actually tak the fabric to the jig. I thought it would be a good idea to leave the ends open just so you could see how one single length of rib lacing chord wraps around the rib and secures both the top and bottom of the fabric. I think it would be great for those that have not rib stitched and wanted to learn how. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352631#352631 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
From: "DaveG601XL" <david.m.gallagher(at)ge.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Grass roots fly-in and a nice grass strip just east of Cincinnati this coming Sunday, Sept 25. Free lunch! http://www.eaa174.org/#SWORFI -------- David Gallagher 601 XL/Jabiru 3300 First flight 7/24/08, Upgraded 3/19/10 Flew it to Oshkosh '09 & '10 180+ hours and climbing! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352635#352635 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Shock Cord
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Speaking of shock cord, I am up in Poplar Grove this weekend replacing mine . I need to add somes sort of "dams" onto the top of the axle, in order to keep the bungees from working their way too close to the wood legs and gett ing pinched. I was down to 50% worn through on one side, only after about 10 hours of operation! Yikes! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. : Pietenpol-List: Re: Shock Cord m> While on the subject of bungee chord, I have a mate who is ordering a pile of it o im going to buy mine now. Im building the straight axle and am wondering what pprox length the chords need to be? Thank you in advance. Scotty -------- amworth, Australia uilding a Corvair Powered Pietenpol Air Camper www.scottyspietenpol.com Rudder, Vert stab, Elevators, Hor Stab and Ribs built...About to start uselage...Corvair engine at Roy's Garage waiting to be modified. ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352502#352502 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Control horns
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Hi Scott, I actually cut small pieces, fit, and welded those little windows closed. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I fabricated the elevator and rudder control horns over the past couple of days to the plans. Fun work and a good test of my newly acquired gas welding sk ills. I have a question for those of you who built them to the plans. After zinc chromating them it occurred to me that there will be a large area of unprot ected metal inside the horn since the forward end that attaches to the wooden spa r of the control surface is open ("butterflied" if you will to attach to the spa r). What can be done to protect this bare metal? I thought of spraying linsee d oil or fluid film into the opening and sloshing it around. I'm not keen on see ing corrosion on these horns which are so visible on the completed aircraft (no t to mention they are a requirement for controlled flight!). Regards to all Pietenpol builders and fliers out there. Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
From: Amsafetc <amsafetyc(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Yes Sent from my iPhone On Sep 18, 2011, at 4:43 PM, "dwilson" wrote: > > During Oshkosh there is a wing jig available that is used to teach rib stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to learn how to tie these knots during Broadhead? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352601#352601 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
Date: Sep 19, 2011
I learned how to tie the knot from the Ray Stitts video. Covered the wing on a PA20/22 using his knot. I have forgotten how now, but still have the video and will re-educate myself when it comes time to ribstitch the Piet. Get yourself a video. C ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:43 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Modified Seine Knot > > During Oshkosh there is a wing jig available that is used to teach rib > stitching. Would there be any interest in having such a jig available to > learn how to tie these knots during Broadhead? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352601#352601 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Scott Knowlton " <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Subject: Re: Control horns
Wow! Now there's some fine welding. I don't know if I'd have the dexterity or fine skills to do that yet but what a great idea. Thanks Dan Scott -----Original Message----- From: helspersew(at)aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:30:22 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Control horns Hi Scott, I actually cut small pieces, fit, and welded those little windows closed. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. I fabricated the elevator and rudder control horns over the past couple of days to the plans. Fun work and a good test of my newly acquired gas welding skills. I have a question for those of you who built them to the plans. After zinc chromating them it occurred to me that there will be a large area of unprotected metal inside the horn since the forward end that attaches to the wooden spar of the control surface is open ("butterflied" if you will to attach to the spar). What can be done to protect this bare metal? I thought of spraying linseed oil or fluid film into the opening and sloshing it around. I'm not keen on seeing corrosion on these horns which are so visible on the completed aircraft (not to mention they are a requirement for controlled flight!). Regards to all Pietenpol builders and fliers out there. Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario ========== -List Email Forum - enpol-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ========== p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - _blank>http://forums.matronics.com ========== p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: steve(at)wotelectronics.com
Subject: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
A friend is looking at a Piet with a FlyBaby style gear, which has no suspension travel. My first inclination is that I don't like this, but I can't really say why...just because it is different I suppose. It seems to be working fine for the FlyBaby guys, so maybe it is OK. This plane has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is right. What are everyone's thoughts on having no suspension travel other than tires? Are there any reasons this is bad? Thanks! Steve Ruse Norman, OK ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Rib Stitching Videos
The Superflite Knot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rneWclUSONw - The Modified Siene Knot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nnDg-6CBs - -The Staggerwing Knot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OsIBk_RWQY - The Staggerwing Knot Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw3rrsuma3c&feature=related - Taping with the Stewart Systems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgXd2-FXtrM&feature=related - Taping part 2 with Stewart http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XdBFsEjuus&feature=related - - - Aero-TV: Flight Tip of the Week - Rib Stitching Antique Restorations http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTSYaP5zS8&feature=related - Aircraft Manufacturing 1910 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTSYaP5zS8&feature=related ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: jeff wilson <jlwilsonnn(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
I have 3 friends with Flybabys wieghing between 650 and 750 and they are al l happy with the suspension. They all have the big fat tires with about 10 lbs pressure. --- On Mon, 9/19/11, steve(at)wotelectronics.com wr ote: From: steve(at)wotelectronics.com <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear Date: Monday, September 19, 2011, 8:57 AM A friend is looking at a Piet with a FlyBaby style gear, which has no suspe nsion travel.- My first inclination is that I don't like this, but I can' t really say why...just because it is different I suppose.- It seems to b e working fine for the FlyBaby guys, so maybe it is OK.- This plane has 8 00 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is right. What are everyone's thoughts on having no suspension travel other than tire s?- Are there any reasons this is bad? Thanks! Steve Ruse Norman, OK le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Depends on how smoothly you can land and how smooth the landing surface is. Jack Phillips says he had a cub and covered the bungees with tape and never noticed that the tape had moved, indicating that the bungees had never moved. I'm going to put a "no suspension travel" wooden gear on my Piet similar to the one for sale (green and white) recently shown on the list. C ----- Original Message ----- From: <steve(at)wotelectronics.com> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Suspension Travel - FlyBaby style gear > > A friend is looking at a Piet with a FlyBaby style gear, which has no > suspension travel. My first inclination is that I don't like this, but I > can't really say why...just because it is different I suppose. It seems > to be working fine for the FlyBaby guys, so maybe it is OK. This plane > has 800 tires that will provide some cushion when the tire pressure is > right. > > What are everyone's thoughts on having no suspension travel other than > tires? Are there any reasons this is bad? > > Thanks! > > Steve Ruse > Norman, OK > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
Yes Dan, Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
Congratulations Kevin on 250 hours on FBG. I know you were in Arizona for quite awhile so you really did fly her alot when you were home. So how many hours estimated on her before Brodhead next July? cheers, Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
So what was the problem causing the battery to lose charge? Is Ryan still in Sebastopol? I thought he was moving up to Seattle. Cheers, Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM" <steven.d.dortch(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Subject: Re: CG Question
OK Wayne,I was right. But, I was not smart enough to argue my point of view. So I got me a Big Gun. Dr Dave Rogers is on the Beechcraft Bonanza list and has a good track record of teaching us Luddites about aerodynamics. He knows a little about this since he teaches aerodynamics at a small school in Annapolis, Maryland, that school has as something to do with ships. Some of their graduates fly off of very short (though paved) moving airstrips. Dave is able to take some highfalutin science talk and dumb it down enough so that even a Marine can understand or better an Army Grunt, (BTW a blade antenna, mounted properly is much more aerodynamic than a rod antenna. He has me convinced that about the only thing aerodynamically worse than a round pole is maybe a square block) Below is the original message I sent to him: Dr. Dave, in a discussion with a fellow pilot. I made the following statement: "In layman's terms, the reason a plane gets more "Twitchy" with an aft CG is the shortened distance between the CG (moved aft) and the elevator. Move the CG forward and the plane becomes more stable. When the CG is too far forward, the plane becomes so stable that the required response may be too slow or not possible. IE too far forward a CG and you can't get a good flare when required." The other pilot said: "I thought the reason for the increased sensitivity was due to the Center of Gravity becoming closer to the wing's Center of Pressure." Which is correct? Or is it like Bernoullis sucking or Coandas blowing. Luckily the end effect is the same. I think I got my idea from the Gleim Pilot handbook recently studied for an FAA test. Blue Skies, Steve D HIS ANSWER: G'day Steve, You are. On 9/16/2011 3:06 PM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM wrote: >Dr. Dave, in a discussion with a fellow pilot. I made the following statement: > >"In layman's terms, the reason a plane gets more "Twitchy" with an aft CG is the shortened >distance between the CG (moved aft) and the elevator. Move the CG forward and the plane >becomes more stable. When the CG is too far forward, the plane becomes so stable that the >required response may be too slow or not possible. IE too far forward a CG and you can't get >a good flare when required." This is a reasonable layman's description. Technically, there is a point as the CG moves aft at which the stability becomes neutral. That point is called the neutral point (stick fixed, stick free, with/without power as the case my be). If the CG is aft of the neutral point, then the aircraft is unstable. When the CG is too far forward a number of things may occur examples are: (a) there is not enough elevator power to flare the aircraft for a full stall landing; (b) the stick force is too large; (c) the stick force gradient is too large. There is a small discussion of the forward CG question on the Technical Flying website. > >The other pilot said: "I thought the reason for the increased sensitivity was due to the >Center of Gravity becoming closer to the wing's Center of Pressure." This is wrong. Technically this is associated with the balance of the aircraft and not the stability. Simply put, an aircraft must be both balanced and stable (modern tactical fighters are an exception to the stability requirement). In a conventional configuration, i.e., with a horizontal tail, it is balance that requires the horizontal tail with typically a down force on the tail. It is the stability requirement that limits the aft movement of the CG. Control requirements determine the forward CG limit. Dave Rogers E33A for sale BEFORE I COULD GLOAT HE ANSWERED ANOTHER BONANZA OWNERS COMMENT, BELOW IS HIS EDITED COMMENT: A reasonable simplified explanation. Improved: 1. Stability (tendency for the aircraft to return to the trimmed speed when displaced a small amount from the initial trimmed speed.) 2. Sensitivity to controls (the tendency for the pitch to change a lot, vs a little, with a given movement of the yoke). Other Pilot comment: 3. Moving the CG forward tends to make the aircraft more stable. If the CG is moved too far forward control issues result, e.g. stick force becomes too large. DAVE'S Answer: Moving the CG toward the elevator makes the aircraft less stable and makes it more sensitive to elevator inputs. for the same elevator force a shortened lever are would result in LESS moment to pitch the aircraft. Dave Rogers E33A for sale So I was right, but I sure did not understand why until he told me why. Blue Skies, Steve D His WEBSITE (listed Below) has Beech Bonanza centered articles under Technical Flying, but there is a lot of generic aviation information. I do not do math in public and it makes my ears bleed if I don't understand it, I prefer to just believe. Dr Rogers signature block below: David F. Rogers, PhD, ATP Professor of Aerospace Engineering (Emeritus) Annapolis, MD Rogers Aerospace Engineering & Consulting Annapolis, MD Over 50 years of experience www.nar-associates.com 410 271 1968 (c) ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Flitzer
From: "bender" <jfaith(at)solairusaviation.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
they are beautiful planes.... great lines and most of all..wood i've wanted another bipe every since i sold my ragwing special. the Flitzer just looks like it should... right out of ww1.. or waldo pepper jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352701#352701 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 2 Year Anniversary
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Way to go Kevin... that is good stuff. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352706#352706 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tbh
From: Amsafetc <amsafetyc(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Congrats on the 2 yr anniversary John Sent from my iPhone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
I think I am gonna try to make this one, if the weather does not change my mind.- Who else here is going to fly in? - Shad ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
From: Matthew VanDervort <matthew.vandervort(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
I plan on working on the T-Craft at barnett's 1OA3, that day, if I get eve rything going I might swing down, or if ya happen to fly over Barnett's stop in and say hello! Can't miss the bright yellow Taylorcraft 513-668-2103, I'll probly be there most of the day Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:55 PM, shad bell wrote: > > > I think I am gonna try to make this one, if the weather does not change my mind. Who else here is going to fly in? > > Shad > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Southwest Ohio Regional Fly-in Sept. 25
From: Matthew VanDervort <matthew.vandervort(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 19, 2011
Disregard, I can't read a calendar, I'll be out on the 24th.... But there a re usually people out there for Sunday morning early afternoon Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:55 PM, shad bell wrote: > > > I think I am gonna try to make this one, if the weather does not change my mind. Who else here is going to fly in? > > Shad > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 2011
From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Retractable sliding step
Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Retractable sliding step
Date: Sep 20, 2011
Ken, looks good, where did you get the "button" clips? Thanks, Jack _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KM Heide CPO/FAAOP Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 11:34 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
No flames ... just a question. The step button seems like a good, simple method to lock the tube in position. I'm just curious as to how you will be able to push the button to collapse the step when you're sitting in the pilot's seat. Maybe you have exceptionally long arms, or is there a secret? BC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352759#352759 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: W/B QUESTION
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
When calculating weight and balance, where do you locate the arm? in the center of the cg range? From the leading edge? and you use negative numbers for distance in front of the datum correct? Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352768#352768 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Retractable sliding step
The snap buttons came form a local hardware store in Fargo, ND called Mac's for the whopping price of .25 each. They carry a few different sizes. If you cna't find them locally, try a store that sells canes and ask if you can buy a few. The idea works really well and easy to fabricate. If people need these snap buttons to create a step please advise and I can send them for costs. KMHeide --- On Tue, 9/20/11, Jack wrote: > From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com> > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, September 20, 2011, 5:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken, looks > good, where did you get the button > clips? > > Thanks, > > > Jack > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] > On Behalf Of > KM Heide CPO/FAAOP > > Sent: Monday, > September 19, 2011 > 11:34 PM > > To: > pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > Subject: > Pietenpol-List: > Retractable sliding step > > > > > > > > > > > Members: > > > > > > Here are some > photos I made of my step which I created > last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside > another tube. The > buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes > or crutches. They > will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the > correct 6" length. > Then push the button in and they slide back into the > sleeve. I placed this > set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used > small pieces of ash > bolted through my 1/4" thick > floor! > > > > > > > So now... flame > away as I added MORE weight to the rear of > the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get > into..outside control > horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the > country! However, I am > keeping it to plans! > > > > > > > > > > > > KMHeide > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
I just lean over the side and push the button and slide it back in. Don't think I have extra long arms... The set-up is located under my seat so it is only reaching outside and back a little bit. KMHeide --- On Tue, 9/20/11, Bill Church wrote: > From: Bill Church <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Retractable sliding step > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, September 20, 2011, 9:10 AM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Bill Church" > > No flames ... just a question. > The step button seems like a good, simple method to lock > the tube in position. I'm just curious as to how you will be > able to push the button to collapse the step when you're > sitting in the pilot's seat. Maybe you have exceptionally > long arms, or is there a secret? > > BC > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352759#352759 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: JOSEPH SWITHIN <joeswithin(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: modified seine knot
I would sign up for the knot tying class at Brodhead. Having someone show me and then monitoring me as I practice would be very helpful. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: JOSEPH SWITHIN <joeswithin(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Dick N
Dick, The print showed up today, I will send the check out today as well. Thanks Joe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
Now here's a serious answer to what I think is your question. 1. You can locate the datum (reference point) anywhere you want. For example, most big planes use an imaginary point in front of the aircraft so that all arms are positive. Many small aircraft use something like the prop flange, firewall, wing leading edge, whatever, as long as it can give you a single vertical reference plane perpendicular to the long axis of the aircraft. Most Pietenpol builders use the firewall since it's a vertical plane and easy to measure from. 2. The "arm" is simply a distance from the datum, aft is positive and forward is negative. In the case of initial weight and balance calculations, you simple level the aircraft and measure the distance from the datum/firewall to each of the 3 wheels. Weight x Arm = Moment. Add the weights, add the moments to get a total weight and moment. Then divide moment by weight and that gives you another arm. That arm is the distance of the cg from the datum. Then measure from the datum to the wing and if it falls within the acceptable range, you're almost done. You now have the empty weight and cg and all other calculations start from that. 3. To add people, fuel, baggage or equipment, just do the weight x arm = moment calculations for each item and then add the empty weight and cg info. Just remember that weights and moments add but the overall arm is a calculated number. To figure out whether you are withing cg limits in a flyable aircraft, take just the aft cg items (on a Piet, that's typically just the pilot) and calculate the maximum aft cg. If it is forward of the max aft published, then you are good. Do the same with forward cg (typically a "light" pilot as min crew) and add fuel, max pax weight and do the W x A = M calculations. Again, if the calculated arm falls withing the cg range, go forth and sin no more. If not, move the wing until it does. This is a little like telling you how to build a watch when you just wanted to know the time but it should answer your question. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352779#352779 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Retractable sliding step
These "snap buttons" are also available from McMaster Carr in lots of different sizes. (Along with just about anything else that you may never have thought of.) Stinemetze >>> KM Heide CPO/FAAOP 9/20/2011 11:59 AM >>> he snap buttons came form a local hardware store in Fargo, ND called Mac's for the whopping price of .25 each. They carry a few different sizes. If you cna't find them locally, try a store that sells canes and ask if you can buy a few. The idea works really well and easy to fabricate. If people need these snap buttons to create a step please advise and I can send them for costs. KMHeide ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
Date: Sep 20, 2011
Good post, Dave. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dgaldrich Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: W/B QUESTION Now here's a serious answer to what I think is your question. 1. You can locate the datum (reference point) anywhere you want. For example, most big planes use an imaginary point in front of the aircraft so that all arms are positive. Many small aircraft use something like the prop flange, firewall, wing leading edge, whatever, as long as it can give you a single vertical reference plane perpendicular to the long axis of the aircraft. Most Pietenpol builders use the firewall since it's a vertical plane and easy to measure from. 2. The "arm" is simply a distance from the datum, aft is positive and forward is negative. In the case of initial weight and balance calculations, you simple level the aircraft and measure the distance from the datum/firewall to each of the 3 wheels. Weight x Arm = Moment. Add the weights, add the moments to get a total weight and moment. Then divide moment by weight and that gives you another arm. That arm is the distance of the cg from the datum. Then measure from the datum to the wing and if it falls within the acceptable range, you're almost done. You now have the empty weight and cg and all other calculations start from that. 3. To add people, fuel, baggage or equipment, just do the weight x arm moment calculations for each item and then add the empty weight and cg info. Just remember that weights and moments add but the overall arm is a calculated number. To figure out whether you are withing cg limits in a flyable aircraft, take just the aft cg items (on a Piet, that's typically just the pilot) and calculate the maximum aft cg. If it is forward of the max aft published, then you are good. Do the same with forward cg (typically a "light" pilot as min crew) and add fuel, max pax weight and do the W x A = M calculations. Again, if the calculated arm falls withing the cg range, go forth and sin no more. If not, move the wing until it does. This is a little like telling you how to build a watch when you just wanted to know the time but it should answer your question. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352779#352779 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
Dave: Now that one I'm gonna print out and put in my "must keep" book. That is about as clear an explanation as I have seen on this subject. Stinemetze >>> "dgaldrich" 9/20/2011 12:59 PM >>> Now here's a serious answer to what I think is your question. 1. You can locate the datum (reference point) anywhere you want. For example, most big planes use an imaginary point in front of the aircraft so that all arms are positive. Many small aircraft use something like the prop flange, firewall, wing leading edge, whatever, as long as it can give you a single vertical reference plane perpendicular to the long axis of the aircraft. Most Pietenpol builders use the firewall since it's a vertical plane and easy to measure from. 2. The "arm" is simply a distance from the datum, aft is positive and forward is negative. In the case of initial weight and balance calculation s, you simple level the aircraft and measure the distance from the datum/firewall to each of the 3 wheels. Weight x Arm = Moment. Add the weights, add the moments to get a total weight and moment. Then divide moment by weight and that gives you another arm. That arm is the distance of the cg from the datum. Then measure from the datum to the wing and if it falls within the acceptable range, you're almost done. You now have the empty weight and cg and all other calculations start from that. 3. To add people, fuel, baggage or equipment, just do the weight x arm = moment calculations for each item and then add the empty weight and cg info. Just remember that weights and moments add but the overall arm is a calculated number. To figure out whether you are withing cg limits in a flyable aircraft, take just the aft cg items (on a Piet, that's typically just the pilot) and calculate the maximum aft cg. If it is forward of the max aft published, then you are good. Do the same with forward cg (typically a "light" pilot as min crew) and add fuel, max pax weight and do the W x A = M calculations. Again, if the calculated arm falls withing the cg range, go forth and sin no more. If not, move the wing until it does. This is a little like telling you how to build a watch when you just wanted to know the time but it should answer your question. Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
On "balance" I imagine your "arm" is tired after typing that fine explanation..... When you could have just explained that "if you give me the money for a 120 it'll take a 120........" -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352783#352783 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
Me too! I never have understood WHY the W/B stuff is so hard for me to understand.... But not now....I think I just got it...one more for MY "must keep" book too!! Thanks Jack -----Original Message----- From: TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Sep 20, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: W/B QUESTION Dave: Now that one I'm gonna print out and put in my "must keep" book. That is about as clear an explanation as I have seen on this subject. Stinemetze >>> "dgaldrich" 9/20/2011 12:59 PM >>> Now here's a serious answer to what I think is your question. 1. You can locate the datum (reference point) anywhere you want. For example, most big planes use an imaginary point in front of the aircraft so that all arms are positive. Many small aircraft use something like the prop flange, firewall, wing leading edge, whatever, as long as it can give you a single vertical reference plane perpendicular to the long axis of the aircraft. Most Pietenpol builders use the firewall since it's a vertical plane and easy to measure from. 2. The "arm" is simply a distance from the datum, aft is positive and forward is negative. In the case of initial weight and balance calculations, you simple level the aircraft and measure the distance from the datum/firewall to each of the 3 wheels. Weight x Arm = Moment. Add the weights, add the moments to get a total weight and moment. Then divide moment by weight and that gives you another arm. That arm is the distance of the cg from the datum. Then measure from the datum to the wing and if it falls within the acceptable range, you're almost done. You now have the empty weight and cg and all other calculations start from that. 3. To add people, fuel, baggage or equipment, just do the weight x arm = moment calculations for each item and then add the empty weight and cg info. Just remember that weights and moments add but the overall arm is a calculated number. To figure out whether you are withing cg limits in a flyable aircraft, take just the aft cg items (on a Piet, that's typically just the pilot) and calculate the maximum aft cg. If it is forward of the max aft published, then you are good. Do the same with forward cg (typically a "light" pilot as min crew) and add fuel, max pax weight and do the W x A = M calculations. Again, if the calculated arm falls withing the cg range, go forth and sin no more. If not, move the wing until it does. This is a little like telling you how to build a watch when you just wanted to know the time but it should answer your question. Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Thank you DAVE..... Re: W/B QUESTION
Ok, I meant to say "Thank you DAVE"....I need to stop trying to multitask.... Thank you Dave!!! Great explanation.... -----Original Message----- >From: dgaldrich <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com> >Sent: Sep 20, 2011 1:59 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: W/B QUESTION > > >Now here's a serious answer to what I think is your question. > >1. You can locate the datum (reference point) anywhere you want. For example, most big planes use an imaginary point in front of the aircraft so that all arms are positive. Many small aircraft use something like the prop flange, firewall, wing leading edge, whatever, as long as it can give you a single vertical reference plane perpendicular to the long axis of the aircraft. Most Pietenpol builders use the firewall since it's a vertical plane and easy to measure from. > >2. The "arm" is simply a distance from the datum, aft is positive and forward is negative. In the case of initial weight and balance calculations, you simple level the aircraft and measure the distance from the datum/firewall to each of the 3 wheels. Weight x Arm = Moment. Add the weights, add the moments to get a total weight and moment. Then divide moment by weight and that gives you another arm. That arm is the distance of the cg from the datum. Then measure from the datum to the wing and if it falls within the acceptable range, you're almost done. You now have the empty weight and cg and all other calculations start from that. > >3. To add people, fuel, baggage or equipment, just do the weight x arm = moment calculations for each item and then add the empty weight and cg info. Just remember that weights and moments add but the overall arm is a calculated number. To figure out whether you are withing cg limits in a flyable aircraft, take just the aft cg items (on a Piet, that's typically just the pilot) and calculate the maximum aft cg. If it is forward of the max aft published, then you are good. Do the same with forward cg (typically a "light" pilot as min crew) and add fuel, max pax weight and do the W x A = M calculations. Again, if the calculated arm falls withing the cg range, go forth and sin no more. If not, move the wing until it does. > >This is a little like telling you how to build a watch when you just wanted to know the time but it should answer your question. > >Dave > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352779#352779 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
dgaldrich wrote: > Now here's a serious answer to what I think is your question. > > 1. You can locate the datum (reference point) anywhere you want. For example, most big planes use an imaginary point in front of the aircraft so that all arms are positive. Many small aircraft use something like the prop flange, firewall, wing leading edge, whatever, as long as it can give you a single vertical reference plane perpendicular to the long axis of the aircraft. Most Pietenpol builders use the firewall since it's a vertical plane and easy to measure from. > > 2. The "arm" is simply a distance from the datum, aft is positive and forward is negative. In the case of initial weight and balance calculations, you simple level the aircraft and measure the distance from the datum/firewall to each of the 3 wheels. Weight x Arm = Moment. Add the weights, add the moments to get a total weight and moment. Then divide moment by weight and that gives you another arm. That arm is the distance of the cg from the datum. Then measure from the datum to the wing and if it falls within the acceptable range, you're almost done. You now have the empty weight and cg and all other calculations start from that. > > 3. To add people, fuel, baggage or equipment, just do the weight x arm = moment calculations for each item and then add the empty weight and cg info. Just remember that weights and moments add but the overall arm is a calculated number. To figure out whether you are withing cg limits in a flyable aircraft, take just the aft cg items (on a Piet, that's typically just the pilot) and calculate the maximum aft cg. If it is forward of the max aft published, then you are good. Do the same with forward cg (typically a "light" pilot as min crew) and add fuel, max pax weight and do the W x A = M calculations. Again, if the calculated arm falls withing the cg range, go forth and sin no more. If not, move the wing until it does. > > This is a little like telling you how to build a watch when you just wanted to know the time but it should answer your question. > > Dave Dave thank you, that helps clear things up. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352787#352787 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
From: "rvanengen" <rvanengen(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
I like the idea!! -------- --Randall 02xB || !02xB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352794#352794 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: tail spring
From: "bender" <jfaith(at)solairusaviation.com>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
OK.... so i had a leaf from a model a that i cut down and was using as a tail spring...did a little trimming and bending and ...pow.... broke it i know there are other options and i've seen them... but i like the leaf spring. the Ragwing Special i built had an aluminum spring... 1 1/2 - 1/2 inch thick 6061... bent in a press i know grove made an aluminum spring for the kitfox.. anybody here ever use aluminum ?? i'll be in Wichita next week and will have access to lots of metal..thought about doing some shopping for some aluminum to try out any thoughts ?? jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352800#352800 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Modified Seine Knot
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
I have just a little experience teaching others how to tie this knot. I believe that If you really want to learn how to do it you have to demonstrate the steps to someone else. Then you will never forget ! Usually takes less than 10 minutes unless of course your norwegian! Dan That might be a violation! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352804#352804 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
Subject: Re: tail spring
From: BRETT PHILLIPS <bphillip(at)shentel.net>
I have heard (during a forum at Brodhead maybe?, vicious rumor?) that Mr Pietenpol went to the coil spring skid after having trouble with the Model T leaf spring skid damaging the fuselage from side loads. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be as much of a problem if a tailwheel was used, but maybe if it was used as a skid? Can anyone else remember more about this tidbit? Brett Phillips Strasburg, VA ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Sep 20, 2011
The one footnote I should have included is that when you weight the airplane, you normally include engine oil and unusable fuel when you do the empty weight calculations. The one mantra of weight and balance is "Weights and moments add; arms do not". And for Bill Church, fingers also add. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352809#352809 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 2011
From: Doug Dever <helio400(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
Windsurf shops have em too.- We use them for about everything adjustable: )=0A=0A=0AFrom: TOM STINEMETZE <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matr onics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:04 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pieten pol-List: Retractable sliding step=0A=0A=0AThese "snap buttons" are also av ailable from McMaster Carr in lots of different sizes.- (Along with just about anything else that you may never have thought of.)=0A-=0AStinemetze =0A=0A=0A=0A>>> KM Heide CPO/FAAOP 9/20/2011 11:59 A M >>>=0Ahe snap buttons came form a local hardware store in Fargo, ND calle d Mac's for the whopping price of .25 each. They carry a few different size s. If you cna't find them locally, try a store that sells canes and ask if you can buy a few. The idea works really well and easy to fabricate.=0A=0AI f people need these snap buttons to create a step please advise and I can s == ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: tail spring
From: gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Date: Sep 21, 2011
Jeff, I believe Zenith 601's are now using 6061 gear legs. I know of at least one builder of the older HDS model that converted the straight, coil spring gear to bent 6061. As I recall, he just bent the gear legs in a Harbor Freight press. Don't see why it wouldn't work for a tail spring. Gary ------Original Message------ From: bender Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: tail spring Sent: Sep 20, 2011 2:20 PM OK.... so i had a leaf from a model a that i cut down and was using as a tail spring...did a little trimming and bending and ...pow.... broke it i know there are other options and i've seen them... but i like the leaf spring. the Ragwing Special i built had an aluminum spring... 1 1/2 - 1/2 inch thick 6061... bent in a press i know grove made an aluminum spring for the kitfox.. anybody here ever use aluminum ?? i'll be in Wichita next week and will have access to lots of metal..thought about doing some shopping for some aluminum to try out any thoughts ?? jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352800#352800 Sent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
Date: Sep 20, 2011
So! Just for Billy Canuck, How do you count to 1023 on ten fingers? Clif The one mantra of weight and balance is "Weights and moments add; arms do not". And for Bill Church, fingers also add. > > Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Piet Project on eBay
Date: Sep 21, 2011
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390348679103&s sPageName=ADME:B:SS:MOTORS:1123 Jack DSM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: W/B QUESTION
Date: Sep 21, 2011
Chris; I'll pass along a few comments from when I have done the W&B on my airplane (once after the rebuild, the second time after the engine change). I go with what others have said... include oil and unusable fuel in the basic empty weight. However, those are easy enough to add and deduct. And use a W&B spreadsheet... there are several of them available from the archives or just ask on this list and you'll get one or more. Makes doing "what-ifs" much quicker and easier. So I used the wing leading edge as the datum since the usual CG limits are stated as a range that is a percentage of the wing chord (60" chord in the case of our wings). I started out by setting the fuselage level and stable, wheels blocked or chocked, tailwheel elevated on a steady stand. I placed a level on the cockpit longeron (actually on the underside of the longeron), clamped in place, and leveled the fuselage. That's very important. I took a line and plumb bob and dropped them over the leading edge of the wing right where the centersection and wing panel join, but really anyplace convenient where the plumb bob can drop down to just at the floor. Let it stop moving and mark that as the reference against which everything else is measured. I laid a line of tape down from the center of the contact patch of one tire across to the other tire as the line that represents the mains. I dropped a plumb bob from the center of the tailwheel down to the floor and marked that spot, and also dropped a plumb bob from the center of the firewall down to the floor and marked that spot, then connected those with a line of tape representing the long axis of the airplane. you could also do it from the center of the prop, if you don't have any offset in your engine thrust line. Now you have everything you need to measure things from, and you should write down all the essential dimensions because you'll need them when you go to weigh the airplane. Tailwheel from datum, mains from datum, fuel tank from datum, passenger and pilot from datum (although you can determine the latter three by weighing later). While the airplane is in the level position you can also measure the angle of your cabanes and other stuff. You can measure the approximate wheelbase, but that will change after you install the wings and the springs or bungees are compressed. You don't need that value for W&B though. Knowing where your main gear axle centerline falls relative to the datum is very useful in light of the recent articles that William Wynne wrote in the newsletter (thanks, Ryan and others, too). This is a good time to make adjustments if they are needed, but you'll know more as you begin to add the wings and accessories and you determine where your final CG is. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket" Medford, OR website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 2011
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Agreed with Oscar on using the leading edge of the wing as the datum, due to the fact that the Piet is rather unique in that you can shift the wing fore and aft to adjust the CG (and which number crunching shows is more effective than hanging the engine farther out front). After you do your W&B (or even preliminary ones) you find that your CG is too far aft, you can easily calculate how much farther aft the wing needs to move to bring it within the chord CG limits in the most adverse scenario. As shown in the article (#2) the CG and weight of a covered wing is roughly known....you could always weigh your wing if that gives you more peace of mind, the CG should not really be that different either way. Just subtract it from the W&B of the entire airplane, adjust the CG of the wingless airplane in inches based on how much you want to move the wing, then add the wing back in. You will arrive at the new CG with your wing notionally relocated. Might be clear as mud....if you don't have the issues, I would send Dee and Doc a few bucks for the W&B back issues...I think William did a pretty good job of making them rather informative. Thanks Oscar, Ryan On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > Chris; I'll pass along a few comments from when I have done the W&B on > my airplane (once after the rebuild, the second time after the engine > change). I go with what others have said... include oil and unusable > fuel in the basic empty weight. However, those are easy enough to > add and deduct. And use a W&B spreadsheet... there are several of > them available from the archives or just ask on this list and you'll > get one or more. Makes doing "what-ifs" much quicker and easier. > > So I used the wing leading edge as the datum since the usual CG limits > are stated as a range that is a percentage of the wing chord (60" chord in > the case of our wings). I started out by setting the fuselage level > and stable, wheels blocked or chocked, tailwheel elevated on a steady > stand. I placed a level on the cockpit longeron (actually on the underside > of the longeron), clamped in place, and leveled the fuselage. That's very > important. > > I took a line and plumb bob and dropped them over the leading edge of > the wing right where the centersection and wing panel join, but really > anyplace convenient where the plumb bob can drop down to just at the > floor. Let it stop moving and mark that as the reference against > which everything else is measured. > > I laid a line of tape down from the center of the contact patch of one > tire across to the other tire as the line that represents the mains. > I dropped a plumb bob from the center of the tailwheel down to the floor > and marked that spot, and also dropped a plumb bob from the center of > the firewall down to the floor and marked that spot, then connected those > with a line of tape representing the long axis of the airplane. you > could also do it from the center of the prop, if you don't have any offset > in your engine thrust line. Now you have everything you need to measure > things from, and you should write down all the essential dimensions > because you'll need them when you go to weigh the airplane. Tailwheel > from datum, mains from datum, fuel tank from datum, passenger and pilot > from datum (although you can determine the latter three by weighing > later). > > While the airplane is in the level position you can also measure the > angle of your cabanes and other stuff. You can measure the approximate > wheelbase, but that will change after you install the wings and the > springs or bungees are compressed. You don't need that value for > W&B though. > > Knowing where your main gear axle centerline falls relative to the datum > is very useful in light of the recent articles that William Wynne wrote > in the newsletter (thanks, Ryan and others, too). This is a good time > to make adjustments if they are needed, but you'll know more as you > begin to add the wings and accessories and you determine where your > final CG is. > > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket" > Medford, OR > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: undercamber
Why did Bernie put the undercamber on his airfoil? what does it do to the flight characteristics, and what would happen if I installed a filler strip to make it flat? Cheers, Gardiner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2011
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: undercamber
Gardiner, Do you have the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual? It's a good read and outlines why Bernard used the airfoil that he did. He experimented with a lot of them and this one was the best he could find. It's based loosely on the Jenny airfoil, but is closer to one designed by Eiffel, if I recall correctly. The reason the Piet is faster than a Cub is because of the FC-10 airfoil. Anyway, the manual is cheap - $6.95 + S&H from the EAA online store: http://www.shopeaa.com/1932flyingandglidermanual.aspx Cheers, Dan PS Stop dilly-dallying with "what-ifs" and get back to building! ;-) On 09/22/2011 11:55 AM, airlion wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: airlion > > Why did Bernie put the undercamber on his airfoil? what does it do to the flight > characteristics, and what would happen if I installed a filler strip to make it > flat? Cheers, Gardiner > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: undercamber
While I am building my ribs(only 6 more to go) I just keep thinking all kind of what ifs. I should be able to start assembling my wings soon. Thanks for the reply Dan. Gardiner ----- Original Message ---- From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov> Sent: Thu, September 22, 2011 1:30:14 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: undercamber Gardiner, Do you have the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual? It's a good read and outlines why Bernard used the airfoil that he did. He experimented with a lot of them and this one was the best he could find. It's based loosely on the Jenny airfoil, but is closer to one designed by Eiffel, if I recall correctly. The reason the Piet is faster than a Cub is because of the FC-10 airfoil. Anyway, the manual is cheap - $6.95 + S&H from the EAA online store: http://www.shopeaa.com/1932flyingandglidermanual.aspx Cheers, Dan PS Stop dilly-dallying with "what-ifs" and get back to building! ;-) On 09/22/2011 11:55 AM, airlion wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: airlion > > Why did Bernie put the undercamber on his airfoil? what does it do to the >flight > characteristics, and what would happen if I installed a filler strip to make it > flat? Cheers, Gardiner > > -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2011
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...thanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP wrote: > > Members: > > Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key > here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called > step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my > step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button > in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back > as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" > thick floor! > > So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will > have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol > "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! > > > *KMHeide* > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 2011
From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
..it comes as a suppliment when you order the gear leg plans, the orginal gear legs.... no stinking cub landing gear here! KMHeide --- On Thu, 9/22/11, Ryan Mueller wrote: > From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Thursday, September 22, 2011, 4:02 PM > Looks good....just curious....which plans > page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, > just want to pick up a copy from the family...thanks, > Ryan > > > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP > wrote: > > > Members: > Here are some photos > I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is > light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are > called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. > They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the > correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they > slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far > back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash > bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! > > So now... flame away > as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have > the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking > Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I > am keeping it to plans! > > KMHeide > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Retractable sliding step
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 22, 2011
Ryan, I thought I had made this all clear, when I discovered that "lost page" a c ouple of years ago.......you need to monitor the list more attentively..... . Sorry to be so harsh. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step com> ..it comes as a suppliment when you order the gear leg plans, the orginal g ear egs.... no stinking cub landing gear here! KMHeide -- On Thu, 9/22/11, Ryan Mueller wrote: > From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Date: Thursday, September 22, 2011, 4:02 PM Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...thanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP wrote: Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide -======================== -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rebuilding an A-65
From: Dave Nielsen <sentuchows(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 22, 2011
I am rebuilding an A-65 with practically all new parts. Can anyone tell me if there is a specific orientation to the pistons and the connecting rod? T he con rods have the oil holes in the bottom. Do the con rod numbers face t he mags or the prop? How about the pistons. Or does it make a difference? "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...t hanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP wrote: Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key h ere is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called s tep buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my ste p to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back a s I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" th ick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpo l "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 22, 2011
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an A-65
In a message dated 9/22/2011 7:13:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, sentuchows(at)aol.com writes: I am rebuilding an A-65 with practically all new parts. Can anyone tell me if there is a specific orientation to the pistons and the connecting rod? The con rods have the oil holes in the bottom. Do the con rod numbers face the mags or the prop? How about the pistons. Or does it make a difference? "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...thanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <_kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com_ (mailto:kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com) > wrote: Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 22, 2011
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an A-65
In a message dated 9/22/2011 7:13:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, sentuchows(at)aol.com writes: I am rebuilding an A-65 with practically all new parts. Can anyone tell me if there is a specific orientation to the pistons and the connecting rod? The con rods have the oil holes in the bottom. Do the con rod numbers face the mags or the prop? How about the pistons. Or does it make a difference? "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...thanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP <_kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com_ (mailto:kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com) > wrote: Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) Buy yourself a service manual and enroll in a mechanics trade school ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an A-65
From: "bender" <jfaith(at)solairusaviation.com>
Date: Sep 22, 2011
i have manuals at the hangar... i'll take a look jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353021#353021 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mitsubishi engine run up with prop!
From: "johnnysdrop" <johnnysdrop(at)googlemail.com>
Date: Sep 23, 2011
Chris What type of Mitsubishi motor is it, what did you have to do for the conversion and do you have dual ignition, either low tension or high tension? Great video and a fantastic project, do you have web pictures? Cheers John (UK) -------- The only way is UP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353030#353030 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2011
Subject: Re: undercamber
From: steve emo <steve.emo58(at)gmail.com>
that is not an easy question to answer. the selection is baically a set of compromises and limitations. the underchamber can 'although I don't promise is does in this case" flaten the location of the center of pressure with angle of attach. I have not studied this airfoil in detail, but I do know that earler airfoils like that of the DR-I that this was true. I'll be interested to see what the community has to say of this one. Also does someone know what the airfoil number or code is? With that information one can get the performance coefficents as a function of AoA. making the airfoil a flat bottom would likely change teh location of the center of pressure and hence require a new wing mounting location. I suspect it would also change the flight characteristics specifically at low speeds and high AoA. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:55 PM, airlion wrote: > > Why did Bernie put the undercamber on his airfoil? what does it do to the > flight > characteristics, and what would happen if I installed a filler strip to > make it > flat? Cheers, Gardiner > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: undercamber
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 23, 2011
Gardiner, To "fill in" the bottom of the wing you are changing the aerodynamic characteristics of the airfoil, and if you do that, you are becoming your own aeronautical engineer and test pilot at the same time. You do not know for sure the flight characteristics of the airfoil on your Piet, as it is no longer the FC-10 airfoil. By filling it in you are creating an entirely new airfoil, The airlion XXX. Seriously, though , if you don't like the look of the airfoil then find an already designed and flight tested airfoil that you do like the look of and build that. But my suggestion would be to leave well enough alone. Just my $.02. For a good discussion of "undercamber" airfoils, go to the following link- http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/undercamber.html It is a really good discussion of the camber of airfoils, but I will paste the most interesting paragraph of the link above- "The tricky thing about both camber and thickness is that too much of either can give us an airfoil that has too much curvature on one or both surfaces for the airflow to follow smoothly, particularly at low Reynolds numbers (such as our slowfliers), and particularly on the portions of the airfoil aft of the highest and/or thickest points. If we have too much camber and/or thickness, the airflow over the aft portions of the upper surface can separate at higher angles of attack (limiting our slow speed performance and max lift), while too much undercamber can cause flow separations on the lower surface at lower angles of attack. With too much of both, we can get an airfoil that has significant amounts of separated flow on the top, bottom or both at ALL angles of attack. However, not enough of each can also cause problems. Designing really good airfoils, especially for very low Reynolds numbers, can become very tricky." Sorry I did not get to see you at Triple Tree, but glad you met Tim and Neil. I hope to see you at CC#21 if I can bid my schedule around it for November. Hope to meet you then. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353033#353033 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Rebuilding an A-65
Date: Sep 23, 2011
Hi Dave, I have the Continental Overhaul manual for A50, A65, A75 and A80 engines before me. For the Connecting rods, it says: "(1) Snap both halves of the connecting rod bushings into the connecting rod and cap. (2) Assemble connecting rods in their proper positions on the crankshaft with the connecting rod numbers pointing up (Fig. 15) NOTE: The connecting rod bolts must be assembled on the connecting rods with the threaded end pointed toward the piston pin bushing. Fasten securely with castle nuts and cotter pins." Fig. 15 simply shows a photograph of the crankshaft mounted on a stand with the propeller end down and the connecting rods being assembled on the crank. >From the above orientation and this figure, the numbers on the connecting rods need to face the rear of the engine (toward the Accesory Case). As for the pistons, it says: "Oil piston pin bushing on connecting rods. Install piston pin plugs into piston pin. Oil piston thoroughly and work oil into piston ring grooves. Oil Piston pin and install piston (with rings assembled) to the connecting rod. Install piston with the numbers toward the front of the engine. The connecting rod must be fully extended through the port." So the connecting rods have their numbers toward the mags, and the pistons have their numbers toward the prop. I assume you know how to install the piston rings? You can buy a copy of this manual from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty for $14.50. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/manuals_cont.php I wouldn't try to overhaul the engine without it, if for no other reason that to get all the proper torque values. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Nielsen Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 8:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rebuilding an A-65 I am rebuilding an A-65 with practically all new parts. Can anyone tell me if there is a specific orientation to the pistons and the connecting rod? The con rods have the oil holes in the bottom. Do the con rod numbers face the mags or the prop? How about the pistons. Or does it make a difference? "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...thanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP wrote: Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key here is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called step buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my step to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back as I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" thick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpol "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an A-65
From: Dave Nielsen <sentuchows(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 23, 2011
Thanks Jack, Yes I can install the new rings. Thanks again. "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net> Sent: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:32 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Rebuilding an A-65 Hi Dave, I have the Continental Overhaul manual for A50, A65, A75 and A80 engines be fore me. For the Connecting rods, it says: =9C(1) Snap both halves of the connecting rod bushings into the conne cting rod and cap. (2) Assemble connecting rods in their proper positions on the crankshaft w ith the connecting rod numbers pointing up (Fig. 15) NOTE: The connecting rod bolts must be assembled on the connecting rods w ith the threaded end pointed toward the piston pin bushing. Fasten securel y with castle nuts and cotter pins.=9D Fig. 15 simply shows a photograph of the crankshaft mounted on a stand wit h the propeller end down and the connecting rods being assembled on the cra nk. From the above orientation and this figure, the numbers on the connect ing rods need to face the rear of the engine (toward the Accesory Case). As for the pistons, it says: =9COil piston pin bushing on connecting rods. Install piston pin plu gs into piston pin. Oil piston thoroughly and work oil into piston ring gr ooves. Oil Piston pin and install piston (with rings assembled) to the con necting rod. Install piston with the numbers toward the front of the engin e. The connecting rod must be fully extended through the port.=9D So the connecting rods have their numbers toward the mags, and the pistons have their numbers toward the prop. I assume you know how to install the piston rings? You can buy a copy of t his manual from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty for $14.50. http://www.aircraf tspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/manuals_cont.php I wouldn=99t try to overhaul the engine without it, if for no other r eason that to get all the proper torque values. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Nielsen Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 8:11 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rebuilding an A-65 I am rebuilding an A-65 with practically all new parts. Can anyone tell me if there is a specific orientation to the pistons and the connecting rod? T he con rods have the oil holes in the bottom. Do the con rod numbers face t he mags or the prop? How about the pistons. Or does it make a difference? "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Retractable sliding step Looks good....just curious....which plans page has the step on it? I think I forgot to order that one, just want to pick up a copy from the family...t hanks, Ryan On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:33 PM, KM Heide CPO/FAAOP wrote: Members: Here are some photos I made of my step which I created last year. The key h ere is light wall tubing slid inside another tube. The buttons are called s tep buttons found in aluminum canes or crutches. They will allow for my ste p to slide out and lock into the correct 6" length. Then push the button in and they slide back into the sleeve. I placed this set-up as as far back a s I could under my seat. Used small pieces of ash bolted through my 1/4" th ick floor! So now... flame away as I added MORE weight to the rear of the fuse! I will have the nicest easy to get into..outside control horned..looking Pietenpo l "brick" in the country! However, I am keeping it to plans! KMHeide ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2011
Subject: Re: undercamber
From: steve emo <steve.emo58(at)gmail.com>
attached are the airfoil characteristics of the Peitentpol FC-10 airfoil. note the Cm is relatively constant with AoA. You mess with this airfoil you are messing with a lot of the handling and performance characterisitics. The Cm is used to determine the CG location as a function of speed and AoA. I fully agree that changing the airfoil by simplying filling in the underchamber you just became an aero-designer and test pilot. I'm not saying it wouldn't fly, or you can't do it, but I am saying it is going to make a difference, and yes low Re airfoils are tricky. How are you going to know where to put the wing? I wouldn't recommend it unless you have the resources to determine the key characteristics of your new GX airfoil and the design the wing and it's placement accordingly. If you want to get rid of the underchamber you'd be better off sticking a Clark Y or other know airfoil and but then it wouldn't be a Pietenpol... My 2 cents. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:24 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> > > Gardiner, > > To "fill in" the bottom of the wing you are changing the aerodynamic > characteristics of the airfoil, and if you do that, you are becoming your > own aeronautical engineer and test pilot at the same time. You do not know > for sure the flight characteristics of the airfoil on your Piet, as it is no > longer the FC-10 airfoil. By filling it in you are creating an entirely new > airfoil, The airlion XXX. Seriously, though , if you don't like the look of > the airfoil then find an already designed and flight tested airfoil that you > do like the look of and build that. But my suggestion would be to leave well > enough alone. Just my $.02. > > For a good discussion of "undercamber" airfoils, go to the following link- > > http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/undercamber.html > > It is a really good discussion of the camber of airfoils, but I will paste > the most interesting paragraph of the link above- > > "The tricky thing about both camber and thickness is that too much of > either can give us an airfoil that has too much curvature on one or both > surfaces for the airflow to follow smoothly, particularly at low Reynolds > numbers (such as our slowfliers), and particularly on the portions of the > airfoil aft of the highest and/or thickest points. If we have too much > camber and/or thickness, the airflow over the aft portions of the upper > surface can separate at higher angles of attack (limiting our slow speed > performance and max lift), while too much undercamber can cause flow > separations on the lower surface at lower angles of attack. With too much of > both, we can get an airfoil that has significant amounts of separated flow > on the top, bottom or both at ALL angles of attack. However, not enough of > each can also cause problems. Designing really good airfoils, especially for > very low Reynolds numbers, can become very tricky." > > Sorry I did not get to see you at Triple Tree, but glad you met Tim and > Neil. I hope to see you at CC#21 if I can bid my schedule around it for > November. Hope to meet you then. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353033#353033 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 23, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: undercamber
OK guys, You have convinced me to not mess with it. After all, the plane flew great before the sun n fun tornado got to it. Thanks for all the input. Gardiner ________________________________ From: steve emo <steve.emo58(at)gmail.com> Sent: Fri, September 23, 2011 12:01:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: undercamber attached are the airfoil characteristics of the Peitentpol FC-10 airfoil. note the Cm is relatively constant with AoA. You mess with this airfoil you are messing with a lot of the handling and performance characterisitics. The Cm is used to determine the CG location as a function of speed and AoA. I fully agree that changing the airfoil by simplying filling in the underchamber you just became an aero-designer and test pilot. I'm not saying it wouldn't fly, or you can't do it, but I am saying it is going to make a difference, and yes low Re airfoils are tricky. How are you going to know where to put the wing? I wouldn't recommend it unless you have the resources to determine the key characteristics of your new GX airfoil and the design the wing and it's placement accordingly. If you want to get rid of the underchamber you'd be better off sticking a Clark Y or other know airfoil and but then it wouldn't be a Pietenpol... My 2 cents. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:24 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > >Gardiner, > >To "fill in" the bottom of the wing you are changing the aerodynamic >characteristics of the airfoil, and if you do that, you are becoming your own >aeronautical engineer and test pilot at the same time. You do not know for sure >the flight characteristics of the airfoil on your Piet, as it is no longer the >FC-10 airfoil. By filling it in you are creating an entirely new airfoil, The >airlion XXX. Seriously, though , if you don't like the look of the airfoil then >find an already designed and flight tested airfoil that you do like the look of >and build that. But my suggestion would be to leave well enough alone. Just my >$.02. > >For a good discussion of "undercamber" airfoils, go to the following link- > >http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/undercamber.html > >It is a really good discussion of the camber of airfoils, but I will paste the >most interesting paragraph of the link above- > >"The tricky thing about both camber and thickness is that too much of either can >give us an airfoil that has too much curvature on one or both surfaces for the >airflow to follow smoothly, particularly at low Reynolds numbers (such as our >slowfliers), and particularly on the portions of the airfoil aft of the highest >and/or thickest points. If we have too much camber and/or thickness, the airflow >over the aft portions of the upper surface can separate at higher angles of >attack (limiting our slow speed performance and max lift), while too much >undercamber can cause flow separations on the lower surface at lower angles of >attack. With too much of both, we can get an airfoil that has significant >amounts of separated flow on the top, bottom or both at ALL angles of attack. >However, not enough of each can also cause problems. Designing really good >airfoils, especially for very low Reynolds numbers, can become very tricky." > >Sorry I did not get to see you at Triple Tree, but glad you met Tim and Neil. I >hope to see you at CC#21 if I can bid my schedule around it for November. Hope >to meet you then. > >-------- >Semper Fi, > >Terry Hand > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353033#353033 > > >ion, >www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" >target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >Matt Dralle, List Admin. >==== > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mitsubishi engine run up with prop!
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)lakefield.net>
Date: Sep 23, 2011
HI John, The engine is actually out of a Allis Chalmers forklift..that is why it makes power at such a low rpm. The bottom end is built like a tank, forged nitrited crank from the factory and a great oiling system. The head is an aluminum cross flow hemi type. The OHC is chain driven. They were also used in Mitsubishi and Clark forklifts. I used an Electromotive distributorless ignition, it has a magnetic pick up and coil packs, so far it works awesome. The engine is a 4G54 non balanced engine..they were used in cars too, but most of them had balance shafts with crappy heads and oil pumps..........so my recommendation would be the forklift variety. The cams are also different. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353061#353061 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: W/B QUESTION
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 24, 2011
Here's how Bernie did it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353112#353112 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_wandb__135.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: rebuilding an A65
Date: Sep 24, 2011
>From an A&P whom I respect=2C and who knows these engines very well: -OZ The connecting rod numbers face the top of the engine in it's flight positi on. What that really means is that the oil port in #1 rod should spray int o #2 cyl and the oil port in the bottom of #2 rod should spray into #1 cyl. The same relationship exists between cyls #3 and #4. Another way to look at it is that the oil ports on the rod caps for #1 and #2 should point tow ard each other. The same for #3 and #4. About half of the Continental engines I tear down have rods in backwards. Usually # 2 and #4. That's a testament to how tough these engines are=2C n ot a testament to not needing the oil ports. Those oil ports in the bottom of the rod spray oil into the bottom of the opposing piston when at BDC to help cool the opposing piston. There is no specific orientation for the pistons. The A-65 pistons are cam ground=2C but they are also fully symmetrical as related to the axis of th e wrist pin=2C so there is no up/down orientation. If the builder is going to the cost and trouble to rebuild the engine with practically all new parts=2C then I hope he does himself a big favor and ba lances the engine properly. The crank should be balanced=2C then the rods should be balanced end-for -end. That means the small ends should all weig h the same as their movement is horizontal. The large end of the rods move rotationally=2C so they should all be match balanced as well. Most engine s have had rods replaced individually at times=2C so there is no balance re lationship at all between the rods. I see them with quite a wide range of weights. The pistons should also be balanced along with the wrist pins. T here is nothing like flying behind a properly balanced engine. Continental didn't do a particularly stellar job of balancing the cranks and the origi nal rods were only balanced to match overall weights. It can be done much better and it pays off in smoothness=2C performance and longevity of the en gine. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 24, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Fw: good flying video
take a brake from low and slow and enjoy. I used to do this in my USMC days. Gardiner ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Susan Mason <susangmason(at)gmail.com> Sent: Tue, September 20, 2011 8:09:59 PM Subject: good flying video Shotze, Here is something from the PCN newsletter. Notice the wonderful music -- "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee," a hymn set to Beethoven's Symphony No. 9. Love you- S. Enjoy the ride and then try some of the other links for more on the daily thrills of flying a jet fighter. This is a video depicting the pure beauty of free, unrestricted flying. To the pilots, you will love the familiar scenes. To those who aren't pilots, this may help explain why we loved flying so much. As I watched this, I was reminded that it was never a "job". It was always a pleasure. There were times when it was stressful, but overall it was pure love and joy -- even after the scary parts, because you either "lucked out", or you successfully managed the "issue"-- just more adrenalin in either case. It's hard to imagine another career as exciting, rewarding and satisfying. When you go to this site, immediately go to Full Screen so the picture fills whatever size monitor you have. The music just adds more to the scenes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_VtgDfL3Eg&feature=related ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: undercamber
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 24, 2011
I was told by a very good friend of Bernie's that He had actually tried an airfoil with no undercamber. He tried the clark Y airfoil and was not pleased with the performance. He thought that he could design an airfoil that would perform better. He experimented with a number of airfoils. He designed the airfoil and concluded that it performed better than the Clark Y that was used on similar " ships ". Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353145#353145 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: undercamber
From: Steve Emo <steve.emo58(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 24, 2011
Guess the "right" airfoil depends on what you want... Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2011, at 10:42 PM, "dwilson" wrote: > > I was told by a very good friend of Bernie's that He had actually tried an airfoil with no undercamber. He tried the clark Y airfoil and was not pleased with the performance. He thought that he could design an airfoil that would perform better. He experimented with a number of airfoils. He designed the airfoil and concluded that it performed better than the Clark Y that was used on similar " ships ". > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353145#353145 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Mystery engine
From: "MyrickPiet" <N762sierra(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
This has befuddeled me for several years. I thought I knew engines. I'm giving the Piet list first chance to come up with an answer for me. Does anyone know anything about the attached engine? Watercooled, 5 cyl radial, dual plugs, Bosch injected, Garrett turbocharged, prop reduction belts. I suspect it is a one-of but that's a LOT of work and expense. Any gearheads out there have some ideas? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353153#353153 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_2_578.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_4_127.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_3_162.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_195.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2011
From: Jim Markle <jim_markle(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mystery engine
Maybe a Wankel Rotary engine? -----Original Message----- >From: MyrickPiet <N762sierra(at)gmail.com> >Sent: Sep 25, 2011 8:37 AM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mystery engine > > >This has befuddeled me for several years. I thought I knew engines. I'm giving the Piet list first chance to come up with an answer for me. Does anyone know anything about the attached engine? Watercooled, 5 cyl radial, dual plugs, Bosch injected, Garrett turbocharged, prop reduction belts. I suspect it is a one-of but that's a LOT of work and expense. Any gearheads out there have some ideas? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353153#353153 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_2_578.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_4_127.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_3_162.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/mystery_engine_195.jpg > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mystery engine
From: "MyrickPiet" <N762sierra(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
MyrickPiet wrote: > This has befuddeled me for several years. I thought I knew engines. I'm giving the Piet list first chance to come up with an answer for me. Does anyone know anything about the attached engine? Watercooled, 5 cyl radial, dual plugs, Bosch injected, Garrett turbocharged, prop reduction belts. I suspect it is a one-of but that's a LOT of work and expense. Any gearheads out there have some ideas? It's not a Wankel because it has 5 injectors, Wankels only have one injector/ firing per rev for each rotor and this has one bank of radial cylinders. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353168#353168 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mystery engine
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
Actually, I think that the radial engine is on a stand next to this engine, because you don't see the cylinders in subsequent pictures. I think that it is a single rotor rotary engine, but I am by no means an engine expert. I am going to post the photos on a rotary engine forum and see what they come up with. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353169#353169 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mystery engine
From: "MyrickPiet" <N762sierra(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
Notice how the turbo sends induction air into a rear plenum? This would seem to indicate some sort of sleeve port for each cylinder to receive its charge. Also it seems to be set up as a pusher engine because the turbo is fed from the rear of the firewall and exhaust is facing the prop disc. I know this is not Piet related but I owned a Piet for years and have followed this site for 11 years. You guys all seem like old pals who like a mental challenge. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353171#353171 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 25, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: good flying video
Hi Gardiner, Thanks for the video; that looks like it would really be fun!!! Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Here I am...another new guy
From: "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
Hello everyone. I first wanted to build my own airplane in 2004. I bought the Tony Bingelis books and some items from EAA (such as AC 43.13). I conducted much research and decided the Pietenpol would be the perfect airplane. I've been reading the posts here for a long time and saved all the best and most informative discussions I could find. My goal was to not bother you with questions already answered. I'd like to thank you for all you've contributed and I'd also like to thank those with web pages and videos. I almost feel like I know you all. I recently joined the local EAA group, but have not yet been able to meet anyone there. So, I'm actually making preparations to use my two car garage (no heat though; just studs and T111 siding). I recently decided to use the Corvair engine, assuming I can find one. I've read the WW conversion manual and been to all the sites involving that engine. I hope to attend Corvair College #21 in November (hum, should I bring my wife?). I still have some questions, and perhaps since I'm starting with a clean slate, maybe you'd like to make recommendations. I'd like to purchase raw lumber from Aircraft Spruce. Customer service seems good from what I've read here. I want to make my own pieces, so I guess I go to their site and just buy the lumber, not the 'kit', is that correct? Should I worry about humidity with storing the wood? Should I keep it in the house? Should I keep tabs on the humidity here (I'm close to Pocono Raceway in PA). I had an elevated hobby room in the garage which I've now taken apart except the floor. The floor would make a solid work bench which is basically 4X8 and I'll cut out a 2 foot deep area on one (long) side, so lots of edge. I'm thinking of mounting tools on the (new) table. I'm wondering if I go with the Tony Bingelis recommendation of the 30 sq in table, what would I use the workbench for? Space should be OK as my wife will park outside when (and if) the time comes. I plan to cut and shape wood in the garage. Ribs will be glued in the house in my loft. When spring comes, I'll work on fuselage and tail in the garage. If I find an engine, I can work on that during winter in the garage (I have those ceiling mounted radiation heaters). I can also practice welding. Here's a list of tools I plan to buy. I'm wondering though, if I have a table saw, do I still need a band saw? Also, instead of an electric miter saw, I'm thinking I'll buy the precision hand saw miter box (about $50). Thoughts? Bench grinder-Craftsman model 21124, a 6 inch 1/6 HP 2.1 amp (on sale for $47.25, normally $70). http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-6-hp-6-34-bench-grinder-with-lamp-21124/p-00921124000P Band saw-Powertec 9 inch 1/2 HP 2.5 amps. http://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-BS900-Band-Saw-9-Inch/dp/B00367WB0G Belt sander-Porter-Cable #91036, 4" by 8" 5 amps http://www.lowes.com/pd_91036-46069-PCB420SA_?PL=1&productId=3163789 Drill press-Craftsman 10" with laser trac (model 21900). 5 speeds at 6 amps, 2/3 HP. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-34-bench-drill-press-with-laser-trac-reg-21900/p-00921900000P Table saw-Craftsman 21807 with Laser trac is 15 amp, 10" job with 24" to rip. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921807000P?keyword=craftsman+21807&sLevel=0&prop17=craftsman%2021807 Router-I can't decide between the Porter-Cable 690LR fixed base http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-690LR-Amp-Fixed-Base-Router/dp/B00005QEVQ ad the DeWalt DW618PK http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW618PK-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Variable-Speed/dp/B00006JKXE I have more on my mind, but I should probably get my workspace ready first. I have to add that when I study the plans (I bought the complete set), I feel like I'm getting in way over my head. I took a class in mechanical drawing in college, and I've designed and built a few big projects, plus I gutted and rebuilt a bathroom, so I hope I have some aptitude for this. Let's put it this way, when I build something, I take all the parts out to make sure I have everything and organize it. I'm looking forward to this project. I'm glad to be here. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353193#353193 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Here I am...another new guy
Date: Sep 25, 2011
Hello John, and welcome to the best group of airplane builders on the planet! I'm glad to see you've already gotten the Tony Bingelis books - they are invaluable as a resource to the Pietenpol Builder. Read them thoroughly and most of your questions will be answered. The rest you can probably find answers for form this group (often, totally contradictory answers, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - it just requires you to sort out the good ideas from the not so good). As for bringing your wife to Corvair College, while I myself have not attended a Corvair College, I've heard nothing but good things about them and would doubt that your wife would be anything but welcome. Anytime you can get your wife involved in your project, it can only be beneficial. I bought most of my spruce from Aircraft Spruce, but a substantial amount from Wickes Aircraft. I found both to provide good quality wood, but Wickes often seemed to be able to deliver much more quickly. I also bought bulk pieces of wood as well as capstrips milled to size and here I would say you are much further ahead to buy the milled lumber rather than rip the pieces yourself from lumber. The additional cost is more than offset by the waste that you will turn into sawdust, and the milled pieces are very accurate. Just determine the lengths you will need and order so many 1/4" x 1/2" capstrips and 1" x 1" longerons, etc. If possible, store your wood somewhere with relatively constant humidity. I kept mine in my basement (where I also built the airplane). You will have far less problems with warping if you keep it somewhere with fairly stable humidity. If you must store it outdoors, keep it off the ground and covered. Inside would be best. For workbenches, I made two 30" x 96" workbenches which could be bolted together to make a 16' long x 30" wide table. This was big enough to construct the fuselage on, and the 30" width was perfect, allowing plenty of room to work, and allowing easy reach across the table, where if you make the table 48" wide you will have trouble reaching across it. As for tools, I rarely used my table saw (except for when I was ripping stock to make capstrips - once I realized how nice the milled capstrips were I never used the table saw again). I only used a router to route the wing spars. I used the bandsaw extensively, both a 12" wood-cutting Craftsman Bandsaw and a 6" Grizzly metal-cutting bandsaw. The most useful wood working tools I found to be the bandsaw and the beltsander. You will also need a welding rig of some sort. I bought the Smith OxyAcetylen rig from Aircraft Spruce and found it entirely satisfactory. The drill press will be necessary as well. Do you have your plans yet? Have you thought about all the other decisions besides powerplant that will need to be made? Long or short fuselage? One-piece or 3-piece wing? Split gear or straight axle gear, etc.? I envy you to have all this before you. It will open your life to a whole new world. Good Luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pocono John Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 9:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here I am...another new guy Hello everyone. I first wanted to build my own airplane in 2004. I bought the Tony Bingelis books and some items from EAA (such as AC 43.13). I conducted much research and decided the Pietenpol would be the perfect airplane. I've been reading the posts here for a long time and saved all the best and most informative discussions I could find. My goal was to not bother you with questions already answered. I'd like to thank you for all you've contributed and I'd also like to thank those with web pages and videos. I almost feel like I know you all. I recently joined the local EAA group, but have not yet been able to meet anyone there. So, I'm actually making preparations to use my two car garage (no heat though; just studs and T111 siding). I recently decided to use the Corvair engine, assuming I can find one. I've read the WW conversion manual and been to all the sites involving that engine. I hope to attend Corvair College #21 in November (hum, should I bring my wife?). I still have some questions, and perhaps since I'm starting with a clean slate, maybe you'd like to make recommendations. I'd like to purchase raw lumber from Aircraft Spruce. Customer service seems good from what I've read here. I want to make my own pieces, so I guess I go to their site and just buy the lumber, not the 'kit', is that correct? Should I worry about humidity with storing the wood? Should I keep it in the house? Should I keep tabs on the humidity here (I'm close to Pocono Raceway in PA). I had an elevated hobby room in the garage which I've now taken apart except the floor. The floor would make a solid work bench which is basically 4X8 and I'll cut out a 2 foot deep area on one (long) side, so lots of edge. I'm thinking of mounting tools on the (new) table. I'm wondering if I go with the Tony Bingelis recommendation of the 30 sq in table, what would I use the workbench for? Space should be OK as my wife will park outside when (and if) the time comes. I plan to cut and shape wood in the garage. Ribs will be glued in the house in my loft. When spring comes, I'll work on fuselage and tail in the garage. If I find an engine, I can work on that during winter in the garage (I have those ceiling mounted radiation heaters). I can also practice welding. Here's a list of tools I plan to buy. I'm wondering though, if I have a table saw, do I still need a band saw? Also, instead of an electric miter saw, I'm thinking I'll buy the precision hand saw miter box (about $50). Thoughts? Bench grinder-Craftsman model 21124, a 6 inch 1/6 HP 2.1 amp (on sale for $47.25, normally $70). http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-6-hp-6-34-bench-grinder-with-lamp-21124/p-0 0921124000P Band saw-Powertec 9 inch 1/2 HP 2.5 amps. http://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-BS900-Band-Saw-9-Inch/dp/B00367WB0G Belt sander-Porter-Cable #91036, 4" by 8" 5 amps http://www.lowes.com/pd_91036-46069-PCB420SA_?PL=1&productId=3163789 Drill press-Craftsman 10" with laser trac (model 21900). 5 speeds at 6 amps, 2/3 HP. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-34-bench-drill-press-with-laser-trac-reg-2 1900/p-00921900000P Table saw-Craftsman 21807 with Laser trac is 15 amp, 10" job with 24" to rip. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921807000P?keyword=craftsman+2180 7&sLevel=0&prop17=craftsman%2021807 Router-I can't decide between the Porter-Cable 690LR fixed base http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-690LR-Amp-Fixed-Base-Router/dp/B00005QEVQ ad the DeWalt DW618PK http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW618PK-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Variable-Speed/dp/B00 006JKXE I have more on my mind, but I should probably get my workspace ready first. I have to add that when I study the plans (I bought the complete set), I feel like I'm getting in way over my head. I took a class in mechanical drawing in college, and I've designed and built a few big projects, plus I gutted and rebuilt a bathroom, so I hope I have some aptitude for this. Let's put it this way, when I build something, I take all the parts out to make sure I have everything and organize it. I'm looking forward to this project. I'm glad to be here. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353193#353193 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Here I am...another new guy
Date: Sep 25, 2011
John, Welcome! You will do just fine. The skills you need that you don't already have you will pick up, little by little....and your two car garage is OK. Although all two car garages are not created equal, you can see in the attached that it all works out. I have been on my project about 3 1/2 years, now. On the weekends, I roll my wife's car out, and move the big piece of whateverI'mworkingon into that area. In this garage, I have two table saws (you only need one), band saw, drill press, bench grinder, sand blast cabinet, planer, 3 work benches, and two rolling stands for the wings. The area above the roll-up door also has an abandoned Zenith 601 center section and tail parts, plus a bunch of aluminum. Piet wings are built and barely visible above the car. It all goes to prove the old saying, "If you build it, you will find the room." Oh...that's not an old saying? Well, someday it will be. My advice - quit thinking and reading, and get to work! ...and, if you email me off-list, I would be happy to tell you how much I love my Corvair engine! Happy building, Gary from Cool Here's a challenge: See if you can beat my record time for building wing ribs! -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pocono John Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 6:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here I am...another new guy --> Hello everyone. I first wanted to build my own airplane in 2004. I bought the Tony Bingelis books and some items from EAA (such as AC 43.13). I conducted much research and decided the Pietenpol would be the perfect airplane. I've been reading the posts here for a long time and saved all the best and most informative discussions I could find. My goal was to not bother you with questions already answered. I'd like to thank you for all you've contributed and I'd also like to thank those with web pages and videos. I almost feel like I know you all. I recently joined the local EAA group, but have not yet been able to meet anyone there. So, I'm actually making preparations to use my two car garage (no heat though; just studs and T111 siding). I recently decided to use the Corvair engine, assuming I can find one. I've read the WW conversion manual and been to all the sites involving that engine. I hope to attend Corvair College #21 in November (hum, should I bring my wife?). I still have some questions, and perhaps since I'm starting with a clean slate, maybe you'd like to make recommendations. I'd like to purchase raw lumber from Aircraft Spruce. Customer service seems good from what I've read here. I want to make my own pieces, so I guess I go to their site and just buy the lumber, not the 'kit', is that correct? Should I worry about humidity with storing the wood? Should I keep it in the house? Should I keep tabs on the humidity here (I'm close to Pocono Raceway in PA). I had an elevated hobby room in the garage which I've now taken apart except the floor. The floor would make a solid work bench which is basically 4X8 and I'll cut out a 2 foot deep area on one (long) side, so lots of edge. I'm thinking of mounting tools on the (new) table. I'm wondering if I go with the Tony Bingelis recommendation of the 30 sq in table, what would I use the workbench for? Space should be OK as my wife will park outside when (and if) the time comes. I plan to cut and shape wood in the garage. Ribs will be glued in the house in my loft. When spring comes, I'll work on fuselage and tail in the garage. If I find an engine, I can work on that during winter in the garage (I have those ceiling mounted radiation heaters). I can also practice welding. Here's a list of tools I plan to buy. I'm wondering though, if I have a table saw, do I still need a band saw? Also, instead of an electric miter saw, I'm thinking I'll buy the precision hand saw miter box (about $50). Thoughts? Bench grinder-Craftsman model 21124, a 6 inch 1/6 HP 2.1 amp (on sale for $47.25, normally $70). http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-6-hp-6-34-bench-grinder-with-lamp-21124/p-0 0921124000P Band saw-Powertec 9 inch 1/2 HP 2.5 amps. http://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-BS900-Band-Saw-9-Inch/dp/B00367WB0G Belt sander-Porter-Cable #91036, 4" by 8" 5 amps http://www.lowes.com/pd_91036-46069-PCB420SA_?PL=1&productId=3163789 Drill press-Craftsman 10" with laser trac (model 21900). 5 speeds at 6 amps, 2/3 HP. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-34-bench-drill-press-with-laser-trac-reg-2 1900/p-00921900000P Table saw-Craftsman 21807 with Laser trac is 15 amp, 10" job with 24" to rip. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921807000P?keyword=craftsman+2180 7&sLevel=0&prop17=craftsman%2021807 Router-I can't decide between the Porter-Cable 690LR fixed base http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-690LR-Amp-Fixed-Base-Router/dp/B00005QEVQ ad the DeWalt DW618PK http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW618PK-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Variable-Speed/dp/B00 006JKXE I have more on my mind, but I should probably get my workspace ready first. I have to add that when I study the plans (I bought the complete set), I feel like I'm getting in way over my head. I took a class in mechanical drawing in college, and I've designed and built a few big projects, plus I gutted and rebuilt a bathroom, so I hope I have some aptitude for this. Let's put it this way, when I build something, I take all the parts out to make sure I have everything and organize it. I'm looking forward to this project. I'm glad to be here. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353193#353193 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
Welcome John! As for tooling, I think we are probably each a little different in our approach, so our preference in tools differs a bit. For example, I LOVE my band saw. I started my project by constructing my wing ribs, as many do (unless your last name rhymes with Boothe)... anyhow, I used my band saw and belt/disc sander pretty heavily. In fact, I still do. I also use the drill press, table saw, miter saw, metal band saw, table router, etc all the time... but I didn't start out with them. I'll agree with John... the miter saw is a dandy. You'll love it when you get to the fuse and where other larger pieces need to be cut. I didn't find it to be the best tool for wing rib parts. A suggestion if I may... get what you need to get going on your project. I would obviously recommend starting with wing ribs since they are relatively cheap, smaller in size than most assemblies and can really test your desire to build. I found them to be a lot of fun, but was really glad to get them done and move on to other assemblies. Anyhow, as you pound out the ribs, you can study the drawings and consider what you will need next (tool wise). Keep a lookout on Craigslist for tools... I've found some really good buys on there. Most importantly, have fun... it isn't a race. We look forward to reading about your progress. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353200#353200 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 25, 2011
John, It sounds to me that your thoughtful planning has you on your way to a good start. If you've managed to listen to all the misfits on this list "for a long time", then I wouldn't worry about getting in "over" your head....You' ve passed the test!!! The drawings seem daunting at first, but all the inf o you need is there. Just take on one small project at a time, and keep plo dding through until one day you will be surprised that there is nothing mor e to do except to fly it. This list is a wealth of information, so feel fre e to tap into it. And if we see that you're doing something generally seen as unairworthy, you will be summarily flamed (in a nice way). One question you had was "then what will I use the workbench for? Mine was 32 ft. long a nd always filled with something or another. One of the undeniable truths of life is, that one can never have enough workbench space. You will not need a wood-cutting band saw, but having a planer is great for shaping all form s of scrap into usable pieces. Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Pocono John <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 25, 2011 8:16 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here I am...another new guy Hello everyone. I first wanted to build my own airplane in 2004. I bought t he ony Bingelis books and some items from EAA (such as AC 43.13). I conducted much esearch and decided the Pietenpol would be the perfect airplane. I've been reading the posts here for a long time and saved all the best and most nformative discussions I could find. My goal was to not bother you with uestions already answered. I'd like to thank you for all you've contributed and 'd also like to thank those with web pages and videos. I almost feel like I now you all. I recently joined the local EAA group, but have not yet been a ble o meet anyone there. So, I'm actually making preparations to use my two car garage (no heat thou gh; ust studs and T111 siding). I recently decided to use the Corvair engine, assuming I can find one. I've read he WW conversion manual and been to all the sites involving that engine. I hope o attend Corvair College #21 in November (hum, should I bring my wife?). I still have some questions, and perhaps since I'm starting with a clean sl ate, aybe you'd like to make recommendations. I'd like to purchase raw lumber from Aircraft Spruce. Customer service seem s ood from what I've read here. I want to make my own pieces, so I guess I go to heir site and just buy the lumber, not the 'kit', is that correct? Should I worry about humidity with storing the wood? Should I keep it in th e ouse? Should I keep tabs on the humidity here (I'm close to Pocono Raceway in A). I had an elevated hobby room in the garage which I've now taken apart excep t the loor. The floor would make a solid work bench which is basically 4X8 and I 'll ut out a 2 foot deep area on one (long) side, so lots of edge. I'm thinking of ounting tools on the (new) table. I'm wondering if I go with the Tony Binge lis ecommendation of the 30 sq in table, what would I use the workbench for? Sp ace hould be OK as my wife will park outside when (and if) the time comes. I plan to cut and shape wood in the garage. Ribs will be glued in the house in y loft. When spring comes, I'll work on fuselage and tail in the garage. If I ind an engine, I can work on that during winter in the garage (I have those eiling mounted radiation heaters). I can also practice welding. Here's a list of tools I plan to buy. I'm wondering though, if I have a tab le aw, do I still need a band saw? Also, instead of an electric miter saw, I'm hinking I'll buy the precision hand saw miter box (about $50). Thoughts? Bench grinder-Craftsman model 21124, a 6 inch 1/6 HP 2.1 amp (on sale for 47.25, normally $70). ttp://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-6-hp-6-34-bench-grinder-with-lamp-21124/p-0 0921124000P Band saw-Powertec 9 inch 1/2 HP 2.5 amps. ttp://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-BS900-Band-Saw-9-Inch/dp/B00367WB0G Belt sander-Porter-Cable #91036, 4" by 8" 5 amps ttp://www.lowes.com/pd_91036-46069-PCB420SA_?PL=1&productId=3163789 Drill press-Craftsman 10" with laser trac (model 21900). 5 speeds at 6 amps , 2/3 P. ttp://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-34-bench-drill-press-with-laser-trac-reg-2 1900/p-00921900000P Table saw-Craftsman 21807 with Laser trac is 15 amp, 10" job with 24" to ri p. ttp://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921807000P?keyword=craftsman+21 807&sLevel=0&prop17=craftsman%2021807 Router-I can't decide between the Porter-Cable 690LR fixed base ttp://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-690LR-Amp-Fixed-Base-Router/dp/B00005QEVQ d the DeWalt DW618PK ttp://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW618PK-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Variable-Speed/dp/B00 006JKXE I have more on my mind, but I should probably get my workspace ready first. I ave to add that when I study the plans (I bought the complete set), I feel like 'm getting in way over my head. I took a class in mechanical drawing in ollege, and I've designed and built a few big projects, plus I gutted and ebuilt a bathroom, so I hope I have some aptitude for this. Let's put it th is ay, when I build something, I take all the parts out to make sure I have verything and organize it. I'm looking forward to this project. I'm glad to be here. ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353193#353193 -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
A few weeks ago we had some discussion about wooden lift struts. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=83802&highlight Since that time I have been working on assembling lift struts that would match the cabane struts Jim Markle helped me assemble in his vacuum bagging system. I know that we all like photos, so I'll try to keep the words short and just offer a handful of photos. Enjoy! Planed laminates of spruce and cherry for the cabanes. Even the master was blown away at my choice of materials. After running the edges through the jointer. Shaped using the table saw and table router... softened the sharp breaks with a little sanding effort. System 3 gloss varnish applied. The cabanes were laminated with full width planks of cherry. I thought this approach might be a bit too heavy for the lift struts, so I chose to rabbet the spruce planks on my table router and cut cherry inserts, which will allow me to achieve the same look with less weight. Rabbeting the spruce planks. All prepped for further assembly. All the parts fabricated. The original plan called for 9 pieces for each strut... in the end, there would be 13. Some of those are a trade secret... if I told ya, I'd have to... well, you know. My vacuum bagging setup. It works great. The first two planks in the bag with the cherry inserts being glued. A better look at the best (easiest, cleanest, most even) clamp available. I am pulling 20"Hg, which is the equivalent of 10psi... those planks are 96" long by ~2" wide... 2 x 96 = 192... multiply by 10psi and that equates to 1920 pounds of pressure applied to that plank in an absolutely even manner. I didn't even get my hands dirty... try that with clamps. All glued up. After this photo was taken, I ran these through the planer to make them all uniform. After the outer caps were all glued up with their inserts in place, I figured I better take a very controlled approach to the rest of the assembly. Trying to stack two caps with three pieces in between would be too easy to screw up. So I chose to install the spruce leading edge strips in order to use this part as a guide when installing the remaining parts. This approach worked well. In all, there were 12 vacuum bagging operations... all of which required curing time... this is why these took a couple of weeks. Plywood cores being installed. My friend Brian Fisher helping me spread epoxy... a lot of epoxy. All glued up, but looking rough. After running them through the planer. After squaring up the trailing edge, which needs to be uniform in order to achieve a matched cut on both sides. All ready to go to the table saw... the most difficult and critical operation. As the penciled note reads, I plan to cut in 3/8" @ 15*. [img]http://www.patriotdigital.net/images/Struts/img-20110925-00273.jpg[/img] A big sigh of relief... the table saw operations are done and they look good. A few passes through the table router using a 1/2" round bit and the leading edges were done. The full set shown with their predecessor, a cabane strut. I'll still need to do a bit of sanding to smooth out the sharp breaks left by the power tools, but otherwise they are 90% done. The most difficult tasks are completed... a little sanding and varnish and they will be done. Thanks for looking! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353204#353204 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Sep 25, 2011
Welcome John One of the truly worthwhile things about this list is the broad spectrum of experience and the availability of good ideas and alternate ways of doing things. A couple of things to consider in addition to the previous postings. 1. Consider alternate sources of wood. There are some lumber yards (few and far between but some do exist) that have sitka spruce in sizes that work. Since you have 43-13, you can grade it yourself. 43-13 also provides alternate species of wood that some people on this very board have used with success. I got enough sitka to build, literally, 2 Pietenpols, from a boatyard that builds and restores wooden boats. Alternate sources of wood will require a decent table saw to mill to the required sizes. And yes, I made a LOT of sawdust, several Hefty bags worth. 2. I consider a miter saw a necessity to build ribs. I made a master set of sticks and used the saw to duplicate 40 more using a stop block. That way, fitting a jig full of sticks took almost no time. One jig can produce two ribs a day if all the pieces are premade. 3. Many, maybe most, metal pieces are easily done on a band saw and drill press. 4. Getting your wife involved is a GOOD thing. If she likes knitting and the like, get her to learn the infamous modified seine knot and help with the fabric. And make absolutely sure you use a Corvair, house paint, and the Riblett airfoil.... :-) Dave Aldrich Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353205#353205 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
All I can say is - wow! Those struts are beautiful and you have taken great pains to document the process. Thanks! One question- what is the weight of each strut at this point? Just curious. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353207#353207 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Wow. Really well documented process. Superb craftsmanship, Mark. Really nice. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353209#353209 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Here I am...another new guy
Date: Sep 26, 2011
John, welcome to the list! I'm not going to repeat all the very good previous comments. I'm lucky to have more tools than I need including a mill, lathe, mig, tig and oxy welders. For building the Piet there are three I would not give up, a 12" disk sander, metal and wood band saws. I use them more than any others. Enjoy the build! Jack DSM www.textors.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pocono John Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here I am...another new guy Hello everyone. I first wanted to build my own airplane in 2004. I bought the Tony Bingelis books and some items from EAA (such as AC 43.13). I conducted much research and decided the Pietenpol would be the perfect airplane. I've been reading the posts here for a long time and saved all the best and most informative discussions I could find. My goal was to not bother you with questions already answered. I'd like to thank you for all you've contributed and I'd also like to thank those with web pages and videos. I almost feel like I know you all. I recently joined the local EAA group, but have not yet been able to meet anyone there. So, I'm actually making preparations to use my two car garage (no heat though; just studs and T111 siding). I recently decided to use the Corvair engine, assuming I can find one. I've read the WW conversion manual and been to all the sites involving that engine. I hope to attend Corvair College #21 in November (hum, should I bring my wife?). I still have some questions, and perhaps since I'm starting with a clean slate, maybe you'd like to make recommendations. I'd like to purchase raw lumber from Aircraft Spruce. Customer service seems good from what I've read here. I want to make my own pieces, so I guess I go to their site and just buy the lumber, not the 'kit', is that correct? Should I worry about humidity with storing the wood? Should I keep it in the house? Should I keep tabs on the humidity here (I'm close to Pocono Raceway in PA). I had an elevated hobby room in the garage which I've now taken apart except the floor. The floor would make a solid work bench which is basically 4X8 and I'll cut out a 2 foot deep area on one (long) side, so lots of edge. I'm thinking of mounting tools on the (new) table. I'm wondering if I go with the Tony Bingelis recommendation of the 30 sq in table, what would I use the workbench for? Space should be OK as my wife will park outside when (and if) the time comes. I plan to cut and shape wood in the garage. Ribs will be glued in the house in my loft. When spring comes, I'll work on fuselage and tail in the garage. If I find an engine, I can work on that during winter in the garage (I have those ceiling mounted radiation heaters). I can also practice welding. Here's a list of tools I plan to buy. I'm wondering though, if I have a table saw, do I still need a band saw? Also, instead of an electric miter saw, I'm thinking I'll buy the precision hand saw miter box (about $50). Thoughts? Bench grinder-Craftsman model 21124, a 6 inch 1/6 HP 2.1 amp (on sale for $47.25, normally $70). http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-6-hp-6-34-bench-grinder-with-lamp-21124/p-0 0921124000P Band saw-Powertec 9 inch 1/2 HP 2.5 amps. http://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-BS900-Band-Saw-9-Inch/dp/B00367WB0G Belt sander-Porter-Cable #91036, 4" by 8" 5 amps http://www.lowes.com/pd_91036-46069-PCB420SA_?PL=1&productId=3163789 Drill press-Craftsman 10" with laser trac (model 21900). 5 speeds at 6 amps, 2/3 HP. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-34-bench-drill-press-with-laser-trac-reg-2 1900/p-00921900000P Table saw-Craftsman 21807 with Laser trac is 15 amp, 10" job with 24" to rip. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921807000P?keyword=craftsman+2180 7&sLevel=0&prop17=craftsman%2021807 Router-I can't decide between the Porter-Cable 690LR fixed base http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-690LR-Amp-Fixed-Base-Router/dp/B00005QEVQ ad the DeWalt DW618PK http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW618PK-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Variable-Speed/dp/B00 006JKXE I have more on my mind, but I should probably get my workspace ready first. I have to add that when I study the plans (I bought the complete set), I feel like I'm getting in way over my head. I took a class in mechanical drawing in college, and I've designed and built a few big projects, plus I gutted and rebuilt a bathroom, so I hope I have some aptitude for this. Let's put it this way, when I build something, I take all the parts out to make sure I have everything and organize it. I'm looking forward to this project. I'm glad to be here. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353193#353193 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Anyone know who this is?
From: "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
American has silver bars and blue uniforms. The shoulder bars would be black and silver though. Looks like a super 80 also. Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353218#353218 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Anyone know who this is?
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Tools, I see those guys every week in London. They have dark blue epaulettes with silver bars. And, yes, that is some MD-80 variant. Most likely a Super 80, but I do not know the guy. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353219#353219 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
Well, it looks like you are 90% finished building and 110% to a finished Pietenpol. Go for it and welcome aboard. cheers, Gardiner --- On Sun, 9/25/11, Pocono John wrote: > From: Pocono John <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here I am...another new guy > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Date: Sunday, September 25, 2011, 9:12 PM > --> Pietenpol-List message posted > by: "Pocono John" > > Hello everyone. I first wanted to build my own airplane in > 2004. I bought the Tony Bingelis books and some items from > EAA (such as AC 43.13). I conducted much research and > decided the Pietenpol would be the perfect airplane. > > I've been reading the posts here for a long time and saved > all the best and most informative discussions I could find. > My goal was to not bother you with questions already > answered. I'd like to thank you for all you've contributed > and I'd also like to thank those with web pages and videos. > I almost feel like I know you all. I recently joined the > local EAA group, but have not yet been able to meet anyone > there. > > So, I'm actually making preparations to use my two car > garage (no heat though; just studs and T111 siding). > > I recently decided to use the Corvair engine, assuming I > can find one. I've read the WW conversion manual and been to > all the sites involving that engine. I hope to attend > Corvair College #21 in November (hum, should I bring my > wife?). > > I still have some questions, and perhaps since I'm starting > with a clean slate, maybe you'd like to make > recommendations. > > I'd like to purchase raw lumber from Aircraft Spruce. > Customer service seems good from what I've read here. I want > to make my own pieces, so I guess I go to their site and > just buy the lumber, not the 'kit', is that correct? > > Should I worry about humidity with storing the wood? Should > I keep it in the house? Should I keep tabs on the humidity > here (I'm close to Pocono Raceway in PA). > > I had an elevated hobby room in the garage which I've now > taken apart except the floor. The floor would make a > solid work bench which is basically 4X8 and I'll cut out a 2 > foot deep area on one (long) side, so lots of edge. I'm > thinking of mounting tools on the (new) table. I'm wondering > if I go with the Tony Bingelis recommendation of the 30 sq > in table, what would I use the workbench for? Space should > be OK as my wife will park outside when (and if) the time > comes. > > I plan to cut and shape wood in the garage. Ribs will be > glued in the house in my loft. When spring comes, I'll work > on fuselage and tail in the garage. If I find an engine, I > can work on that during winter in the garage (I have those > ceiling mounted radiation heaters). I can also practice > welding. > > Here's a list of tools I plan to buy. I'm wondering though, > if I have a table saw, do I still need a band saw? Also, > instead of an electric miter saw, I'm thinking I'll buy the > precision hand saw miter box (about $50). Thoughts? > > Bench grinder-Craftsman model 21124, a 6 inch 1/6 HP 2.1 > amp (on sale for $47.25, normally $70). > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-6-hp-6-34-bench-grinder-with-lamp-21124/p-00921124000P > > Band saw-Powertec 9 inch 1/2 HP 2.5 amps. > http://www.amazon.com/POWERTEC-BS900-Band-Saw-9-Inch/dp/B00367WB0G > > Belt sander-Porter-Cable #91036, 4" by 8" 5 amps > http://www.lowes.com/pd_91036-46069-PCB420SA_?PL=1&productId=3163789 > > Drill press-Craftsman 10" with laser trac (model 21900). 5 > speeds at 6 amps, 2/3 HP. > http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-34-bench-drill-press-with-laser-trac-reg-21900/p-00921900000P > > Table saw-Craftsman 21807 with Laser trac is 15 amp, 10" > job with 24" to rip. > http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921807000P?keyword=craftsman+21807&sLevel=0&prop17=craftsman%2021807 > > Router-I can't decide between the Porter-Cable 690LR fixed > base > http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-690LR-Amp-Fixed-Base-Router/dp/B00005QEVQ > ad the DeWalt DW618PK > http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW618PK-Plunge-Fixed-Base-Variable-Speed/dp/B00006JKXE > > I have more on my mind, but I should probably get my > workspace ready first. I have to add that when I study the > plans (I bought the complete set), I feel like I'm getting > in way over my head. I took a class in mechanical drawing in > college, and I've designed and built a few big projects, > plus I gutted and rebuilt a bathroom, so I hope I have some > aptitude for this. Let's put it this way, when I build > something, I take all the parts out to make sure I have > everything and organize it. > > I'm looking forward to this project. I'm glad to be here. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353193#353193 > > > > > > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: Ken Bickers <bickers.ken(at)gmail.com>
John, Welcome aboard. You may have already thought of this, but I'd recommend at least one other item: an inexpensive digital camera to keep in your workshop. You'll want to take lots of pictures to document your progress, as well as to occasionally post here. It will also be very handy when you make the pilgrimage to Brodhead. Cheers, Ken ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Terry... I'm not sure on the weight, but I will find out. When they first came out of the bag all glued up I thought they felt a little heavy, but once the excess glue and blocked wood were trimmed they were noticeably lighter. I'll try to put them on the scales this week. In case I forget to mention it later on... these are 96" long, which is ~10" longer than I should need to fly. I won't trim them until we are close to rigging them so I can leave some room for possible damage or miscalculation. I suppose we could divide the total weight by 8 and get a weight per foot. I'd be interested to know how they compare to streamline tubing if anyone has some that can be weighed... or perhaps that data is published somewhere. Thanks for the compliments fellas! -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353224#353224 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Welcome to the group, John. When it comes to tools, everybody has their preferred methods. Ideally, we would all have very spacious, fully equipped workshops (and an infinite amount of free time and disposable income). However, in the real world, we make do with what we have (well I do, anyway). It sounds as though you are faced with starting from scratch, as far as equipping your workshop. While all of the tools you have listed can be used to good advantage in building a Piet, it isn't really necessary to have all of them. Many tasks can be accomplished by several means, depending on the ingenuity of the builder. In my case, I built up my woodworking tool collection over many years, prior to starting my Piet so I didn't have to decide what tools to buy before starting (but still use any excuse available to acquire a new toy... I mean tool). I chose to buy my Sitka in rough-sawn planks, and milled it all myself, so a table saw was a necessity. Aircraft Spruce and Wick's do not sell rough-sawn lumber, so if you want to go that route, you'll have to find another source for your wood, and be prepared to do your own grading. Buying your wood pre-milled would make the table saw less critical to have. I do have a thickness planer, so I used it, but it isn't totally necessary. I also have a (electric) miter saw, and so far have used it to cut ZERO parts for my Piet. However, I have used my disc sander for almost every piece. Rough cut the pieces to length, and fine tune the mitered ends on the disc sander - works like a charm. There are a lot of metal parts in this "all-wood" airplane, and you'll likely need that bandsaw to cut out the metal parts (unless you have access to a metal shop), but most of the metal parts will need to be made to fit the wooden structures that you actually made, so they won't be required until a little later in the project. My suggestion would be to acquire the tools as you need them, rather than buying a whole shop full of tools in one shot. That way you can spend a little time with each new tool, getting to know how each one works, before cutting into your airplane parts. As far as the workbench goes, I'm not sure what you're talking about - you plan to use a 4' x 8' floor as your workbench, with a 2 foot deep cutout on one side, and mount your tools on the workbench? You will eventually need a workbench about 15 feet long to build your fuselage on. Like Jack suggested, you should probably build 2 benches 8 feet long, and about 30 inches wide (you will need the full 24 inches for the fuselage, and you'll want a bit of extra room - but not too much - 4 feet is too wide to reach across). Here's a link to some plans for simple but effective workbenches (but as I said, I'd suggest making them about 6" wider - even though that means spending a few extra bucks for the extra plywood) http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/tablefig.htm As for your workspace, a 2 car garage should work just fine for most of the build. I only have a 1 1/2, and although it's squishy at times, it works. I have, however heard that people sometimes use garages to store cars - weird idea. I live further North than you, and I can work almost year round, by making use of a small space heater in the winter - it all depends on your desire to get things built. In my case, I use whatever time is available to me, so if that happens in the winter months, then that's when I build (the T-88 just takes longer to cure in colder temps). Oh, one more thing... unlike a bathroom reno, there shouldn't be any sewer connections on the Piet (assuming you build to the plans). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353225#353225 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
One more welcome to the group, John. If one of does not know the answer to your "soon to be discovered" questions - then the question probably does not deserve answering. Just remember to BUILD TO THE PLANS, or mostly to the plans, or at least use them as a general guideline - - Otherwise you don't get to call it a Pietenpol. Oh one other tool you might want to consider as it has been very useful to me. That is an X-acto miter box and back saw. This is a hobby sized miter box and saw that allows very precise cuts in some hard to get to places. Not too expensive either. Best wishes on your build! Tom Stinemetze N328X Long fuse, corvair, split axel gear, 3-piece wing, spruce, Ken Perkins parts, etc., etc. 6-years into a 5-year project >>> "Bill Church" 9/26/2011 9:04 AM >>> Welcome to the group, John. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Mark, FWIW, here are the weights for some aluminum struts for sale on the web. I will curious to see how yours come out in weight comparison. But the aluminum does not look near as nice as yours! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353231#353231 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/struts_601.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
One quick thought on shipping: I'm certain that I've made UPS, FedEx and USPS profitable during lean years by ordering materials as needed vs. making fewer large orders. I haven't done the math, but I know shipping costs are a significant part of the total cost of the airplane. Of course, storing the stuff long term also has costs. Having said all that, I'm buying materials for the next project exactly the way I did for the Piet: as needed, in small quantities, with lots of shipping costs. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353232#353232 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2011
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
Almost a third of Dad's cost was shipping if I remember correctly. - Shad --- On Mon, 9/26/11, kevinpurtee wrote: From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy Date: Monday, September 26, 2011, 10:58 AM il> One quick thought on shipping:- I'm certain that I've made UPS, FedEx and USPS profitable during lean years by ordering materials as needed vs. maki ng fewer large orders.- I haven't done the math, but I know shipping cost s are a significant part of the total cost of the airplane.- Of course, storing the stuff long term also has costs. Having said all that, I'm buying materials for the next project exactly the way I did for the Piet: as needed, in small quantities, with lots of shipp ing costs. -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee NX899KP Austin/Georgetown, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353232#353232 le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Terry Where on the web did you find those aluminum struts. Thanks Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 9:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update) > > > Mark, > > FWIW, here are the weights for some aluminum struts for sale on the web. I > will curious to see how yours come out in weight comparison. But the > aluminum does not look near as nice as yours! > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353231#353231 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/struts_601.png > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
As Jack and Bill have said... a couple of workbenches that can be fastened together would be a great idea. This first thing I built for this project were two 4' x 8' workbenches and the height was determined by MY height, not the standard table or workbench height. That is something else you should consider... I don't know if you are shorter or taller than average, but make the benched comfortable to YOU and you won't fatigue as easily during those long standing sessions. I used 2x4s, 4x4s, cheap ply for the shelves and cabinet grade birch for the tops. I also cut, drilled and tapped some 1" aluminum stock and installed them into the bottom of the legs and then threaded 3/8"-16 bolts with big washers for leveling feet. Leveling feet are great any time, but expecially when you get around to pairing them up for the fuse assembly. 4' x 16'... straight and level. Can you believe that tiny stack of wood will build the fuse? Once everything was leveled, I used a few pieces of cheap plywood as gussets and screwed the table legs together in the middle. You can kind of make out the big rectangular gusset if you look closely at the two center legs. To second (or third) the train of thought on tooling... if you buy things up front that you THINK you'll need, you will not only tie up resources (might not be a problem for you), but you may look back and say... I wish I would have got the model with the [fill in the blank], or you may wish a certain tool wasn't in your way at all while it collects dust. Just something to consider. My shop/hangar started out with only a few tools I inherited from my Grandpa and now, only two-and a half years later it is fairly well equipped. At the time this photo was taken, I had my plans and was awaiting capstrip for ribs. You don't need much to get started. Your shop will stay well equipped if you keep an eye out for this mean hombre. He is known as the Markler, and he always leaves you feeling a wee bit violated (is that the right word) after a visit. Just look at him... that mean scowl as he says, "I'm taking this." Just kidding... Jim is a swell guy and we love him around here. He has been a BIG help on my project. Enough tom-foolery... back to work. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353238#353238 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
http://carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
Date: Sep 26, 2011
One of the advantages of making your workbench table top 30" wide is that it leaves you a piece of plywood about 18" wide which can be added under the workbench to make a nice shelf for storing wood or anything else. Here is a picture of my workbench with the fuselage assembled on top of it: And here you can see the shelf under the workbench: Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:05 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy Welcome to the group, John. When it comes to tools, everybody has their preferred methods. Ideally, we would all have very spacious, fully equipped workshops (and an infinite amount of free time and disposable income). However, in the real world, we make do with what we have (well I do, anyway). It sounds as though you are faced with starting from scratch, as far as equipping your workshop. While all of the tools you have listed can be used to good advantage in building a Piet, it isn't really necessary to have all of them. Many tasks can be accomplished by several means, depending on the ingenuity of the builder. In my case, I built up my woodworking tool collection over many years, prior to starting my Piet so I didn't have to decide what tools to buy before starting (but still use any excuse available to acquire a new toy... I mean tool). I chose to buy my Sitka in rough-sawn planks, and milled it all myself, so a table saw was a necessity. Aircraft Spruce and Wick's do not sell rough-sawn lumber, so if you want to go that route, you'll have to find another sou! rce for your wood, and be prepared to do your own grading. Buying your wood pre-milled would make the table saw less critical to have. I do have a thickness planer, so I used it, but it isn't totally necessary. I also have a (electric) miter saw, and so far have used it to cut ZERO parts for my Piet. However, I have used my disc sander for almost every piece. Rough cut the pieces to length, and fine tune the mitered ends on the disc sander - works like a charm. There are a lot of metal parts in this "all-wood" airplane, and you'll likely need that bandsaw to cut out the metal parts (unless you have access to a metal shop), but most of the metal parts will need to be made to fit the wooden structures that you actually made, so they won't be required until a little later in the project. My suggestion would be to acquire the tools as you need them, rather than buying a whole shop full of tools in one shot. That way you can spend a little time with each new tool, getting to know how each one works, before cutting into your airplane parts. As far as the workbench goes, I'm not sure what you're talking about - you plan to use a 4' x 8' floor as your workbench, with a 2 foot deep cutout on one side, and mount your tools on the workbench? You will eventually need a workbench about 15 feet long to build your fuselage on. Like Jack suggested, you should probably build 2 benches 8 feet long, and about 30 inches wide (you will need the full 24 inches for the fuselage, and you'll want a bit of extra room - but not too much - 4 feet is too wide to reach across). Here's a link to some plans for simple but effective workbenches (but as I said, I'd suggest making them about 6" wider - even though that means spending a few extra bucks for the extra plywood) http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/worktabl/tablefig.htm As for your workspace, a 2 car garage should work just fine for most of the build. I only have a 1 1/2, and although it's squishy at times, it works. I have, however heard that people sometimes use garages to store cars - weird idea. I live further North than you, and I can work almost year round, by making use of a small space heater in the winter - it all depends on your desire to get things built. In my case, I use whatever time is available to me, so if that happens in the winter months, then that's when I build (the T-88 just takes longer to cure in colder temps). Oh, one more thing... unlike a bathroom reno, there shouldn't be any sewer connections on the Piet (assuming you build to the plans). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353225#353225 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
One thing to keep in mind, regarding the weights of various struts, is that the only truly relevant weight will be the OVERALL weight of the completed strut (including end fittings). Different strut materials will require different fittings at each end - some heavier than others. For instance, steel struts can have the end fittings welded in place, whereas aluminum or wooden struts will require bolted connections (which are always heavier than welds). Therefore the real comparison should be between the completed strut assemblies. Just sayin'. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353241#353241 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Bill Church wrote: > the real comparison should be between the completed strut assemblies. True. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353244#353244 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
It has come to my attention (again) that embedded images do not play well for e-mail readers. I am a web reader and I really don't like the way that the attachment feature screws up the web formatting, so I choose to embed images when I can. Sorry if this messes things up for those of you that receive e-mails or the daily digest. If you would like to see the photos, go to this link... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=84475 -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353251#353251 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
Mark, Some really great work on those struts except you got the light wood on the wrong side. nice job Mark John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Those arr beautiful, and I know it will work. but it would be interesting to make a short test section with the end fittings you are going to use and pull them on some type test rig and see what the ultimate yield is. I wish I had done something like that on my aluminum ones just for fun. might be a good winter project but then I don't really have a way to pull test them either.Raymond. do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353283#353283 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 26, 2011
From: kmordecai001(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Mystery Engine - McCulloch?
In=C2-Volume 2, Number 3 of Torque Meter, the Journal of the Aircraft Eng ine Historical Society, Kevin Cameron wrote:=C2-"In 1963, McCulloch began to consider whether a derivative and civilized two stroke might find sales in=C2-light aviation.=C2- In the early 1970's they revealed a water co oled turbocharged 5 cylinder=C2-radial two stroke.=C2- It's diameter wa s small because it had no valve mechanism atop it's heads, (spark plugs wer e steeply angled=C2-as well) and it was of short stroke design.=C2- =C2 -.....developed 270 sea level horsepower from 188.7 cubic inches and util ized direct injection. .........maximum permissible speed of 4,200 rpm. This sound like it could be it! =C2- =C2- Dave Mordecai NX520SF Panacea, FL =C2-( Does anyone know anything about the attached engine? =C2-Watercoo led, 5 cyl radial, dual plugs, Bosch injected, Garrett turbocharged, prop reduction belts. =C2-I suspect it is a one-of but that's a LOT of work and expense. =C2-Any gearheads out ther e have some ideas? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "bender" <jfaith(at)solairusaviation.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
not to scientific but i took a section of the small aluminum strut and drilled a 5/16 hole 1/2 "from each end, added a bolt ...loose with no filler or reinforcement and attached it to a 3 ton hoist and a 4800lb tug... only a cable on each end around the bolts..just as the tug broke ground the aluminum gave away at a bolt hole.. made me feel ok... knowing i actually had ends to spread the load on the real thing.. those wood struts are beautiful... jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353296#353296 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mystery Engine - McCulloch?
From: "MyrickPiet" <N762sierra(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
The Piet guys come thru! Thank you Dave Mordecai in FL. If I could award a prize you would probably win it. Sounds very much like the right one. I have passed on the information to the Oklahoma Science Museum where the engine is on display with many question marks. (Does anyone know anything about the attached engine? Watercooled, 5 cyl radial, dual plugs, Bosch injected, Garrett turbocharged, prop reduction belts. I suspect it is a one-of but that's a LOT of work and expense. Any gearheads out there have some ideas? > [b] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353298#353298 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 26, 2011
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and your ideas. I take constructive criticism well, so feel free to speak your mind. As far as tools, I wanted to research and see what is out there and learn the language. I'll definitely hold off buying until I need it, but at least the research is done and I have a model number in mind. The funny thing is now when I'm out with my wife, I park so we have to go through the tool department. My garage has 22' X 19' of working space I can use. It has two doors, 7' high. Here are my responses to some of your questions/comments: JACK I do have the plan's (plus supplements, the booklet...everything I could order). I want the long fuselage. Are the plans I have for long? How can I tell? I prefer a one piece wing. If I can put the wing together in warm weather, then bring it and the fuselage to a final assembly location, that should work. Are there things I should consider besides the space saving convenience of three wing sections? I prefer the straight axle wooden gear (looks nice), but wondering if it's rough on the plane. Split axle appears to provide more cushion. Not sure what I'll do. GARY You're sure good at utilizing your garage space. I'm impressed! MARK Thanks. I plan to cut in the garage and since we're getting into cold weather, I'll assemble each rib in the house and since there's no rush, I'll use one of the techniques from websites I've seen to clamp gussets. I probably am thinking too much, but I want to have the layout established. Thanks for the Craigs list idea. Thanks for the photos of your work bench.. DAVE Flew at Bar Harbor? CLE Chief? KEN We have so many digital cameras here, and all junk. I sure miss the days of 35mm. I'm going to try to find something that takes good photos. I tried a camera tonight; took some test photos of what's left of my old hobby room. BILL Yes, I'm starting from scratch with tools. I'm amazed at how many things I've built with just some basics: Circular and jig saw and my trusty variable speed/reversible drill. You wrote "As far as the workbench goes, I'm not sure what you're talking about - you plan to use a 4' x 8' floor as your workbench, with a 2 foot deep cutout on one side, and mount your tools on the workbench?"...what I meant was I thought that would serve as an area to place tools or mount a vise (odds and ends?). For ribs and fuselage, I'll build a table specifically for that such as the one EAA 100 designed. I may still build the Tony Bingelis 30" X 30" tool table. I guess I'll see what happens. TOM Thanks for the hobby miter box suggestion. I'm attaching a couple of photos to try this out and see if the camera is a piece of junk like my others. This is what remains of my hobby room in which I built model rockets. I can either chuck it, or use it as an area to put tools or do miscellaneous work; still thinking. YIKES! I'm looking at the preview and looks like I'm going to have to buy another camera. Oh well! OK, not going to think too much. I'll get some milled wood, some from Wicks and Spruce and compare them. Meanwhile, I'll build the rib jig (as soon as I get the garage ready). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353303#353303 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/iphone_photos_002_867.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/iphone_photos_001_198.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wooden Lift Struts (Update)
From: "jacktextor" <jtextor(at)thepalmergroup.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Mark, very nice work! Thanks for sharing the operation. Jack DSM -------- Jack Textor Des Moines, IA www.textors.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353316#353316 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Hi John, The long fuselage plans are in the supplemental plans package from the Pietenpol family, so you should have it, along with the "short" fuselage in the Improved (1933) Air Camper plans. The shortest fuselage is in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual plans. The one-piece wing is slightly lighter, but is more difficult to handle, even if you have the room for it in your shop, which it sounds like you do not. The one-piece wing is 29' long and requires a space of at least 12' x 32' to be able to safely turn it over and move around it. Even with enough space, it is troublesome to move it and handle it (you'll be surprised how often it must be flipped over during the covering and painting process). The three piece wing also offers more flexibility in use of the centersection for baggage storage or fuel. The straight axle wooden gear is considerably stronger and more rugged than the split axle gear, with one important exception: The axle itself is under quite a bit of stress and needs to be made of fairly heavy wall tubing, which along with the weight of the wire wheels, makes this gear considerably heavier than the split axle design. To minimize the stress on the axle, keep the wheels as close to the undercarriage as possible. The use of brakes adds complexity to this undercarriage design and also tends to increase stress in the axle due to extending the wheels further from the bungees which are resisting the wheel loads. As for being rough on the plane, either gear as designed provide plenty of shock absorption. If I were to build mine over, I would use the split axle gear with wire wheels, but would use die springs instead of bungees. The bungees are just a pain in the butt to change, and need to be replaced about every 2 - 3 years. One other suggestion - when you send your first order to Aircraft Spruce, buy their "Bargain Bag of Spruce" for $37.50 (Yikes - when I was building mine, it was $15). There are a lot of pieces of my airplane that were made from pieces of spruce I got from their bargain bag. You'll be surprised how much of it you will use. The best suggestion I have is for you to plan now to go to Brodhead next July to see all the Pietenpols there. No two are alike, and every one of their builders had to answer the same questions you are now asking yourself. It's interesting to see how many different solutions to the same problem you can find. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pocono John Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 9:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and your ideas. I take constructive criticism well, so feel free to speak your mind. As far as tools, I wanted to research and see what is out there and learn the language. I'll definitely hold off buying until I need it, but at least the research is done and I have a model number in mind. The funny thing is now when I'm out with my wife, I park so we have to go through the tool department. My garage has 22' X 19' of working space I can use. It has two doors, 7' high. Here are my responses to some of your questions/comments: JACK I do have the plan's (plus supplements, the booklet...everything I could order). I want the long fuselage. Are the plans I have for long? How can I tell? I prefer a one piece wing. If I can put the wing together in warm weather, then bring it and the fuselage to a final assembly location, that should work. Are there things I should consider besides the space saving convenience of three wing sections? I prefer the straight axle wooden gear (looks nice), but wondering if it's rough on the plane. Split axle appears to provide more cushion. Not sure what I'll do. GARY You're sure good at utilizing your garage space. I'm impressed! MARK Thanks. I plan to cut in the garage and since we're getting into cold weather, I'll assemble each rib in the house and since there's no rush, I'll use one of the techniques from websites I've seen to clamp gussets. I probably am thinking too much, but I want to have the layout established. Thanks for the Craigs list idea. Thanks for the photos of your work bench.. DAVE Flew at Bar Harbor? CLE Chief? KEN We have so many digital cameras here, and all junk. I sure miss the days of 35mm. I'm going to try to find something that takes good photos. I tried a camera tonight; took some test photos of what's left of my old hobby room. BILL Yes, I'm starting from scratch with tools. I'm amazed at how many things I've built with just some basics: Circular and jig saw and my trusty variable speed/reversible drill. You wrote "As far as the workbench goes, I'm not sure what you're talking about - you plan to use a 4' x 8' floor as your workbench, with a 2 foot deep cutout on one side, and mount your tools on the workbench?"...what I meant was I thought that would serve as an area to place tools or mount a vise (odds and ends?). For ribs and fuselage, I'll build a table specifically for that such as the one EAA 100 designed. I may still build the Tony Bingelis 30" X 30" tool table. I guess I'll see what happens. TOM Thanks for the hobby miter box suggestion. I'm attaching a couple of photos to try this out and see if the camera is a piece of junk like my others. This is what remains of my hobby room in which I built model rockets. I can either chuck it, or use it as an area to put tools or do miscellaneous work; still thinking. YIKES! I'm looking at the preview and looks like I'm going to have to buy another camera. Oh well! OK, not going to think too much. I'll get some milled wood, some from Wicks and Spruce and compare them. Meanwhile, I'll build the rib jig (as soon as I get the garage ready). ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
John, You need to start building your rib jig NOW. Order some 1/4 X 1/2 spruce capstrip,some 1/16 plywood and T-88 epoxy and get started. The details will fall into place. You have a jigsaw so with a little time you can have a Piet rib to show us. What Jack P said. I built the one piece wing and have a 40 X 50 hangar. It is 32.5 feet. I just finished covering it. Without a fancy jig to hold it you will need 4 people total to turn it over safely. Dan Helsper built the fancy jig. I did not. I have turned it 3 times so far. Now the finishing (painting and sanding starts) and turning starts. I figure to turn it at least 4 more times. I am fortunate to have family and friends that can come over after work to help. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353318#353318 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/a72_210.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/a71_126.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mystery Engine - McCulloch?
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Look at this one. http://www.pimaair.org/collection-detail.php?cid=319 -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353319#353319 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 27, 2011
I prefer a one piece wing. If I can put the wing together in warm weather, then ring it and the fuselage to a final assembly location, that should work. Ar e here things I should consider besides the space saving convenience of three ing sections? With the one-piece wing, you will almost always need help turning it over d uring the building process. It is difficult to paint, because there are ver y few places to grab on while turning. Also, If you ever needed to move the airplane with a truck or trailer it be a very long truck or trailer. But b eing a purist, I had no choice but to do it. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Pocono John <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Mon, Sep 26, 2011 8:38 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Here I am...another new guy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
Hello John and welcome. I see that you have already received many replies to your questions and pictures as well. Rather then repeat all that, I just wanted to welcome you personally. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Thank you Michael. I'll wrap this up with a final comment. I wish I could pick out wood since there's a place two hours away where I could load up on spruce and plywood. Here is their page: http://www.condonlumber.net/index.htm Since I'm in no rush to fall out of the sky, I guess I'll have order from Wicks and/or AS. If AC 43.13 had photos of what's good and what's not, maybe I'd take a drive and check it out. Oh well! Thanks again for all the advice. I'll start a new post when I have questions (later today probably). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353327#353327 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
It does... right there in chapter 1. Pocono John wrote: > If AC 43.13 had photos of what's good and what's not, maybe I'd take a drive and check it out. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353328#353328 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Not sure why my book has no photos. I went all through Chapter One and nothing. Page 1-3 has descriptions of what is unacceptable, but that's it. Maybe I can search the web for images. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353329#353329 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
All it takes to grade wood is a decent ruler and a Mk I Calibrated Eyeball. Well over 90% of sitka spruce will meet the "slope/straightness" requirements, especially in the longer rough lengths. The ruler will tell you if the growth ring specification is met. The other issue is defects -- pitch pockets, pin knots and so on are pretty easy to see and can be worked around in the initial milling. What may NOT be obvious is issues caused by mishandling -- crushed pieces and so on. One of the members of this board got a questionable spar from AS&S that they reluctantly replaced because it had been mishandled. A careful inspection checking for abrupt changes of direction looking along the long edges will give a clue. It might be worth a 2 hour drive to save on the shipping costs, especially for the spar and longeron sized pieces that have to go by truck. I'm in Belfast, ME, 30 NM south from BHB, as the crow flies. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353335#353335 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
dgaldrich wrote: > One of the members of this board got a questionable spar from AS&S that they reluctantly replaced because it had been mishandled. > > Dave They weren't THAT reluctant. Once the right people were made aware of the situation they were fairly prompt in taking care of things. Just wanted to be clear since I think it was my spar you were speaking of. It took them about 2 days to work it up the chain, review the evidence with their people and resolve the matter. Other than the spar, which could have been a big deal, I've always got good products and service from AS&S. The moral of the story... regardless of the source, inspect your materials closely and buy from an outfit that will stand behind their product. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353337#353337 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 27, 2011
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Here I am...another new guy
My Piet was built of Douglas Fir bought locally and carefully graded by me personally. 95 hours and it hasn't fallen out of the sky yet! Ben On 9/27/2011 1:16 PM, Pocono John wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Pocono John" > > Thank you Michael. I'll wrap this up with a final comment. > > I wish I could pick out wood since there's a place two hours away where I could load up on spruce and plywood. Here is their page: > > http://www.condonlumber.net/index.htm > > Since I'm in no rush to fall out of the sky, I guess I'll have order from Wicks and/or AS. If AC 43.13 had photos of what's good and what's not, maybe I'd take a drive and check it out. Oh well! > > Thanks again for all the advice. I'll start a new post when I have questions (later today probably). > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353327#353327 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "Kyle85" <boschkyle(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Hey Guys, I am new builder here and I just had a question regarding my ribs. Has Anyone NOT cut miter joints for ribs and just cut to length and glued the gussets. I really just want to make sure I am not wasting the precious time I do have. I have a three year old, a month old baby, a wife, and a full time job w/ OT. The only time I have to build is 4 AM to 6:30 AM before work. Not trying to be hasty here, I just want to build a safe airplane in a somewhat timely and efficient manner. Thanks in advance! -Kyle Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353359#353359 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Dever <chiefpepperhead(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Miter Joints on ribs
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Tony Bingelis says either way is acceptable. I'm mitering mine. It just m akes me feel better:) Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Miter Joints on ribs > From: boschkyle(at)hotmail.com > Date: Tue=2C 27 Sep 2011 15:04:26 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > > > Hey Guys=2C I am new builder here and I just had a question regarding my ribs. > Has Anyone NOT cut miter joints for ribs and just cut to length and glued the gussets. I really just want to make sure I am not wasting the precious time I do have. I have a three year old=2C a month old baby=2C a wife=2C a nd a full time job w/ OT. The only time I have to build is 4 AM to 6:30 AM before work. Not trying to be hasty here=2C I just want to build a safe air plane in a somewhat timely and efficient manner. Thanks in advance! > -Kyle > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353359#353359 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "Kyle85" <boschkyle(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Yeah I hear ya Doug, my conscience is already getting the better of me. I will probably Just continue with the miter cuts and feel better about myself too :p Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353364#353364 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2011_09_25_08_56_37_736_998.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 27, 2011
Yep, that's the way. I found it easiest to make a nice fitting set of master parts and duplicate 32 times for each. Much more efficient than walking back and forth to the band saw and disc sander for each rib. These aren't all my parts, but you get the idea. Same goes for the gussets. Regardless of the style you choose to make, make them all and press on. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353378#353378 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: OT - Flight Service is Hiring
From: Wayne Bressler <wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
This is off-topic, but I hope the information might help someone find a job. I'm trying to share this information with as many people as possible. Please pardon the post, otherwise. ___________________________ The job postings were listed today for developmental positions at the Lockheed Martin Flight Service Washington Hub in Ashburn, VA. The website shows ten openings. This may be a nice career for people on this list, or someone you know. Please forward this around to any person or group who might be interested. Even if someone doesn't meet the "minimums", I recommend applying anyway. You never know. These postings will likely not be up for long, so get your submission completed ASAP. To find all ten openings, go to www.lockheedmartinjobs.com and search "AFSS". Please let me know if you have any questions! Wayne Bressler Taildraggers, Inc. www.taildraggersinc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
Kyle, I asked this same question a few months ago. Here is a link to that discussion- http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=82296&highlight John Kringle posted two photos of bridge gusset plates that answered my questions. For sake of your search time, I have reposted them here. The strength of the joint is the gusset and the quality of the attachment (glue) between the capstrip, the vertical braces, and the gusset itself. But having said that, I am still mitering the joints. I just do not worry as much about the miter joint and worry more about getting the best coverage with the T88. Hope that helps -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353405#353405 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/bridge2_854_429.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/bridge1_170_121.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Loegering <dan.loegering(at)odaytank.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
Subject: RE: Miter Joints on ribs
Kyle, I left out the miter on my ribs as it made the pre work a little easier. However, if you are concerned about strength, do what I did - make yourself two joints, one with the miter, and one without. Then test to destruction. Both of my samples failed outside of the gussets in about the same location. That was good enough for my ability to sleep at night ;-) That said, I do believe the mitered joint would be stronger simply because there is more glue surface area in contact, but the strength is not needed because the adjoining material will fail before the actual joint will. If you do decide to use square ends, make sure you still put some glue on the cut end to seal it during assembly, otherwise you may have a hard time working varnish into the corner enough to seal these surfaces. Dan Loegering Fargo, ND Subject: Pietenpol-List: Miter Joints on ribs From: "Kyle85" <boschkyle(at)hotmail.com> Hey Guys, I am new builder here and I just had a question regarding my ribs. Has Anyone NOT cut miter joints for ribs and just cut to length and glued the gussets. I really just want to make sure I am not wasting the precious time I do have. I have a three year old, a month old baby, a wife, and a full time job w/ OT. The only time I have to build is 4 AM to 6:30 AM before work. Not trying to be hasty here, I just want to build a safe airplane in a somewhat timely and efficient manner. Thanks in advance! -Kyle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2011
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Miter Joints on ribs
Yes it would probably be ok to leave the rib sticks square......but this is a good time to hoan your skills on a good fitting joint.- You will not w ant to do that on the rest of the project, a rib is a lot cheaper than a fu selage side to rebuild. practice, practice, practice, Practice dosn't make perfect, perfect practic e makes perfect. - Just My oppinion on the subject, to each their own. Shad - --- On Wed, 9/28/11, Dan Loegering wrote: From: Dan Loegering <dan.loegering(at)odaytank.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Miter Joints on ribs Date: Wednesday, September 28, 2011, 9:46 AM .com> Kyle, I left out the miter on my ribs as it made the pre work a little easier.- However, if you are concerned about strength, do what I did - make yoursel f two joints, one with the miter, and one without.- Then test to destruct ion.- Both of my samples failed outside of the gussets in about the same location.- That was good enough for my ability to sleep at night ;-) That said, I do believe the mitered joint would be stronger simply because there is more glue surface area in contact, but the strength is not needed because the adjoining material will fail before the actual joint will. If you do decide to use square ends, make sure you still put some glue on t he cut end to seal it during assembly, otherwise you may have a hard time w orking varnish into the corner enough to seal these surfaces. Dan Loegering Fargo, ND Subject: Pietenpol-List: Miter Joints on ribs From: "Kyle85" <boschkyle(at)hotmail.com> Hey Guys, I am new builder here and I just had a question regarding my ribs . Has Anyone NOT cut miter joints for ribs and just cut to length and glued t he gussets. I really just want to make sure I am not wasting the precious time I do hav e. I have a three year old, a month old baby, a wife, and a full time job w / OT. The only time I have to build is 4 AM to 6:30 AM before work. Not try ing to be hasty here, I just want to build a safe airplane in a somewhat ti mely and efficient manner. Thanks in advance! -Kyle le, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
Dan, I was going to bring this up in a separate post, but since you mentioned it here, I will keep it here as part of this thread. I have thought that I, like you, would feel better about the strength of my wing ribs if I test one to destruction. I just have not known how. Could you elaborate on how you did that? What were your methods and what were your results? Did you change anything about the way that you built your ribs as a result? Thanks in advance for the information. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353413#353413 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kenneth Howe <ken@cooper-mtn.com>
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
Date: Sep 28, 2011
Terry, Here's a simple rig I set up for testing my gluing technique. I glued up the sample in my jig, clamping the same way I do for a full rib. The sand bags are 10lbs each. I also have a rig for testing a full rib, but unfortunately no pictures. For the full rib I have two 4' spar sections (lumber store pine) and I center 1 rib on the spars. I have 4x4s with a 3/4" slot cut in them at 14 degree angle to simulate high angle of attack. The stub spar and rib assembly is set inverted on the saw horses with the nose of the rib pointed down the 14 degrees. Distribute the sand bags chordwise along the rib. Ken On Sep 28, 2011, at 7:44 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > Dan, > > I was going to bring this up in a separate post, but since you mentioned it here, I will keep it here as part of this thread. > > I have thought that I, like you, would feel better about the strength of my wing ribs if I test one to destruction. I just have not known how. Could you elaborate on how you did that? What were your methods and what were your results? Did you change anything about the way that you built your ribs as a result? > > Thanks in advance for the information. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353413#353413 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
Here's a picture of my miter cuts. Not necessary, but as noted, once figured out, you can make all the miters quite quick. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
Ohh, now look at that. Strange how we look at things differently. All of my verticals were butted to the ribs while the diagonals were fitted in between the verticals... opposite of yours. I guess there is no right or wrong way structurally, but that just looks more difficult to me, although it is essentially the same. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353435#353435 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
I mitered all of mine in my Piet. But since then I've rebuilt some Aeronca and Taylorcraft wings with the same type of built up wood ribs. Both of them used square joints in theirs. This past spring the L-2 wing I built has all squared off pieces which is right off of the prints. It went amazingly faster. I was able to build the set of ribs in a matter of days instead of months. Thank you Taylorcraft. :-) The strength really is in the gussett. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353441#353441 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob edson" <robertse(at)centurytel.net>
Subject: cable tension
Date: Sep 28, 2011
We have the tail feathers covered,filled,primed and starting to paint with Stuart system- it works great. Ready to start covering wings and want to know what tension to put on the different cables. We have a tension gage so what is the tension required? Bob picture ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 28, 2011
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: cable tension
This has been discussed in the past the list - I'm sure it's in the archives. I think Pietenpol in the key of G is the answer. ;-) Not too tight and not too loose. I think people have tightened with their fingers and then gone one more full turn. It doesn't need much, that's for sure. I've heard people say 8lb to 40lb. I think 40lb might be too much. When I do my pre-flight I give them a strum and a low G is about right. On 09/28/2011 04:36 PM, Bob edson wrote: > We have the tail feathers covered,filled,primed and starting to paint > with Stuart system- it works great. Ready to start covering wings and > want to know what tension to put on the different cables. We have a > tension gage so what is the tension required? Bob picture -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "Kyle85" <boschkyle(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
Haha! You guys are great, I really do appreciate all the replies. The only downside is in my quest to save time on the ribs, it looks now like I will spend more time experimenting and testing. Oh well, small price to pay for an education! Thanks again guys. -Kyle >From Iowa....just live in New York Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353475#353475 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: cable tension
From: "bender" <jfaith(at)solairusaviation.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2011
things seem to get funky if you tighten the cables on the piet too much.. it kinda freaked me out at first.. but.. thats the way things were back then. i have a reprint of a Jenny manual and it says... "tighten the cables to till they are not slack but not so tight that they sing" i think a tensiometer is not going to go that low jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353477#353477 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Mark, I had Michael's video before I started my ribs but I did mine as you did -- his way looked way too complicated for me. I wonder which is stronger. According to the post regarding the joint test (with the sand bags) it really doesn't matter -- the rib cap strip is going to break before the joint, anyway. ----- Original Message ----- From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 1:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Miter Joints on ribs > > Ohh, now look at that. Strange how we look at things differently. All of > my verticals were butted to the ribs while the diagonals were fitted in > between the verticals... opposite of yours. I guess there is no right or > wrong way structurally, but that just looks more difficult to me, although > it is essentially the same. > > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353435#353435 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: cable tension
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Bob, the picture looks great. I will be glad when I get to that point. I will figure that I am about 99.44 % complete. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob edson To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 5:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: cable tension We have the tail feathers covered,filled,primed and starting to paint with Stuart system- it works great. Ready to start covering wings and want to know what tension to put on the different cables. We have a tension gage so what is the tension required? Bob picture ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: machined control horns?
From: "j_dunavin" <j_dunavin(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
I thought that i saw someone on the forum who had machined one piece, solid horns. They looked like .25 in. thick. Can anyone help me out here, or am i loosing my mind? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353504#353504 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: machined control horns?
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Hmmm... I think that maybe the person who made the solid control horns (if they did) might be the one who was losing their mind. Solid control horns - even if made of aluminum - would weigh considerably more than the hollow, light gauge steel horns shown in the plans, and with no discernible benefit. From a design standpoint, in my opinion, the plans-built control horns are an excellent combination of strength, lightness and beauty. Almost everyone that has made theirs to the plans is surprised by how easy they actually are to build, and how strong they are. My 2 cents (that you didn't even ask for). Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353510#353510 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: machined control horns?
There was a company marketing these not too long back and I purchased a set on eBay but then decided not to use them. You can have them for the postage if you want them. E-mail me off list for details: toms at mcpcity dot com Tom Stinemetze N328X >>> "j_dunavin" 9/29/2011 6:15 AM >>> I thought that i saw someone on the forum who had machined one piece, solid horns. They looked like .25 in. thick. Can anyone help me out here, or am i loosing my mind? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
From: "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
After 18 or so years of research on a Piet, and after taking my rather enterprising son to Brodhead this year... he proclaimed he could buy one faster than I can build one. Him starting his last year at home, I figured he had a point so I set out looking for one for us to fly while I build one. Sort of remembering that one was going to be for sale at Brodhead, and disappointed that I didn't see it there (it was there, I just didn't know which one) I found by reading old posts that it was Dick Navratil's NX2RN (his first Piet, blue and yellow with an A-65). Turns it, it's the exact configuration I want to build, except I'm sort of leaning towards a Model A. However, I've never thought having an aviation engine was a bad thing in a plane. Also, having no light civil aviation experience and having never owned a plane... thought the A-65 would be great! So, I call Dick, fly to MN, he graciously picks me up, drives me way out to the plane, I look it over (can't get a ride because Dick's biannual checkride is out of date) and REALLY like it! Here's my son's conditions. He wants a Piet, he didn't care about configuration, but was insistent I didn't buy a project! This plane was perfect. Tested but not old, solid as a rock, materials and workmanship in the build perfectly documented and beyond question in my mind. So I jump in it (it's the short fuse) and about cry. No way I can manipulate the rudder.... I'm heartbroken. Dick says to taxi it around. I've never even taxied a tailwheel plane in my LIFE! But, I decide to take him up on it. It starts on one pull, and with the steerable tailwheel I realize the pedals aren't too bad. I pull the trigger and strike a deal! Now, second problem. Remember no projects? Not quite true, I AM the project. Not only havn't I not taxied a tailwheel, I've never flown one either! Good news, this plane is in MN. I right then start a month long stint in a hotel in St Paul getting checked out a very similar plane... the venerable Airbus A-330... Ya, I went to MN late Sep to get checked out in two planes. One with a wingspan of the other's takeoff roll. Now, going to say this here. This is a great plane. But it's NOTHING compared to the man who agreed to let me buy it. Dick insisted it be freshly annualled. He insisted on a few other nice things. He hauled my butt out to that airport a dozen or more times. He had me over for dinner. In the buy, he agreed to help me with the annual condition inspection if I bring it to Brodhead. He agreed to letting me keep it in his hangar (possibly till next spring!) until I can ferry it a thousand miles home. More than all of that, just one hell of a great guy. One might say I bought a good friend and got a free plane in the deal, but friends like that can't be bought at any price. So, Dick helps me find a tailwheel instructor at Osceola (where the plane is) and patiently waits around on a couple trips while I get an endorsement. Two rides in a 180hp Super Decathalon (in the front seat) and I have an endorsement. YIKES. Took one more ride in the back seat of a 110hp BRAND NEW Champ. Uh, that thing had a moving map display with terrain alerting! It's better than the map in a $100 million dollar Airbus! Very gusty, feel better.... but still... yikes. Two days ago I run the Piet up and down the grass strip with the tail up... wow. First few tries I aborted way early in that process. But figured it out reasonably quick. Yesterday Dick takes me up for a few landings. THAT HELPED a TON. So, under no pressure at all (it was a BEAUTIFUL day), the builder and my son there watching, only a few hours after my type rating ride with the FAA in an Airbus A330, I flew the Piet! What a day. Nearly 20 years of waiting for that, I flew solo for the first time since Mar 1, 1999 (and that was a A-4), my first light civil flight since July of 1982, I got to fly a Piet. I'm flying the Airbus to Barcelona tomorrow, so hope to get up next week to ferry the Piet back. Going to be a fun few days for my son and I. I would be interested in recommendations for fuel and overnight stops between St Paul and Chatt TN if anyone knows that route well. Don't worry, this has completely increased my resolve to get cracking on my Piet. Not giving up on that at all. Besides, don't want to fight my son for time in the plane! Cheers, Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353516#353516 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Congratulations on buying Dick's Pietenpol, and on finally learning how to fly a REAL airplane, one without a training wheel on the front. As for good stops along your trip, one place that is pretty much in a direct line between Mineapolis and Chattanooga that I've landed is Mattoon, Illinois (MTO). They have a nice grass runway and a great restaurant on the field (try their Elephant Ear sandwich). Slightly out of your way, but worth the deviation, is Poplar Grove, Illinois (C77). Two good grass runways there, along with the friendliest FBO (particularly to Pietenpol people) I've ever seen. Closer to Chattanooga, try Tullahoma, Tennessee (THA). They have a nice 2900' grass runway in addition to two paved runways, and the Staggerwing Museum is on the field. Self-Service Fuel. The Jack Daniels Distillery is only 11 miles away, and the George Dickel Distillery is even closer. Good Luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tools Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards. After 18 or so years of research on a Piet, and after taking my rather enterprising son to Brodhead this year... he proclaimed he could buy one faster than I can build one. Him starting his last year at home, I figured he had a point so I set out looking for one for us to fly while I build one. Sort of remembering that one was going to be for sale at Brodhead, and disappointed that I didn't see it there (it was there, I just didn't know which one) I found by reading old posts that it was Dick Navratil's NX2RN (his first Piet, blue and yellow with an A-65). Turns it, it's the exact configuration I want to build, except I'm sort of leaning towards a Model A. However, I've never thought having an aviation engine was a bad thing in a plane. Also, having no light civil aviation experience and having never owned a plane... thought the A-65 would be great! So, I call Dick, fly to MN, he graciously picks me up, drives me way out to the plane, I look it over (can't get a ride because Dick's biannual checkride is out of date) and REALLY like it! Here's my son's conditions. He wants a Piet, he didn't care about configuration, but was insistent I didn't buy a project! This plane was perfect. Tested but not old, solid as a rock, materials and workmanship in the build perfectly documented and beyond question in my mind. So I jump in it (it's the short fuse) and about cry. No way I can manipulate the rudder.... I'm heartbroken. Dick says to taxi it around. I've never even taxied a tailwheel plane in my LIFE! But, I decide to take him up on it. It starts on one pull, and with the steerable tailwheel I realize the pedals aren't too bad. I pull the trigger and strike a deal! Now, second problem. Remember no projects? Not quite true, I AM the project. Not only havn't I not taxied a tailwheel, I've never flown one either! Good news, this plane is in MN. I right then start a month long stint in a hotel in St Paul getting checked out a very similar plane... the venerable Airbus A-330... Ya, I went to MN late Sep to get checked out in two planes. One with a wingspan of the other's takeoff roll. Now, going to say this here. This is a great plane. But it's NOTHING compared to the man who agreed to let me buy it. Dick insisted it be freshly annualled. He insisted on a few other nice things. He hauled my butt out to that airport a dozen or more times. He had me over for dinner. In the buy, he agreed to help me with the annual condition inspection if I bring it to Brodhead. He agreed to letting me keep it in his hangar (possibly till next spring!) until I can ferry it a thousand miles home. More than all of that, just one hell of a great guy. One might say I bought a good friend and got a free plane in the deal, but friends like that can't be bought at any price. So, Dick helps me find a tailwheel instructor at Osceola (where the plane is) and patiently waits around on a couple trips while I get an endorsement. Two rides in a 180hp Super Decathalon (in the front seat) and I have an endorsement. YIKES. Took one more ride in the back seat of a 110hp BRAND NEW Champ. Uh, that thing had a moving map display with terrain alerting! It's better than the map in a $100 million dollar Airbus! Very gusty, feel better.... but still... yikes. Two days ago I run the Piet up and down the grass strip with the tail up... wow. First few tries I aborted way early in that process. But figured it out reasonably quick. Yesterday Dick takes me up for a few landings. THAT HELPED a TON. So, under no pressure at all (it was a BEAUTIFUL day), the builder and my son there watching, only a few hours after my type rating ride with the FAA in an Airbus A330, I flew the Piet! What a day. Nearly 20 years of waiting for that, I flew solo for the first time since Mar 1, 1999 (and that was a A-4), my first light civil flight since July of 1982, I got to fly a Piet. I'm flying the Airbus to Barcelona tomorrow, so hope to get up next week to ferry the Piet back. Going to be a fun few days for my son and I. I would be interested in recommendations for fuel and overnight stops between St Paul and Chatt TN if anyone knows that route well. Don't worry, this has completely increased my resolve to get cracking on my Piet. Not giving up on that at all. Besides, don't want to fight my son for time in the plane! Cheers, Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353516#353516 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Tools, Nicely done! Let me know when you get it back home and I will drive up to see it. Congrats to you and your son. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353524#353524 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2011
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
I did something similar and bought a Baby Ace half-way through my build. Nice thing about airplanes like the one you bought.. if you dont break it, it will probably be worth the same price when you finish your project. My motivation was to be ready to test-fly when the time came. As much fun as your first flight in NX2RN was, your first flight in an airplane you built yourself will be even better. You also have the opportunity to know what you like/don't like/or could improve on when you build your own. Enjoy! Ben Charvet Titusville, Fl On 9/29/2011 10:34 AM, tools wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tools" > > After 18 or so years of research on a Piet, and after taking my rather enterprising son to Brodhead this year... he proclaimed he could buy one faster than I can build one. > > Him starting his last year at home, I figured he had a point so I set out looking for one for us to fly while I build one. > > Sort of remembering that one was going to be for sale at Brodhead, and disappointed that I didn't see it there (it was there, I just didn't know which one) I found by reading old posts that it was Dick Navratil's NX2RN (his first Piet, blue and yellow with an A-65). Turns it, it's the exact configuration I want to build, except I'm sort of leaning towards a Model A. However, I've never thought having an aviation engine was a bad thing in a plane. Also, having no light civil aviation experience and having never owned a plane... thought the A-65 would be great! > > So, I call Dick, fly to MN, he graciously picks me up, drives me way out to the plane, I look it over (can't get a ride because Dick's biannual checkride is out of date) and REALLY like it! > > Here's my son's conditions. He wants a Piet, he didn't care about configuration, but was insistent I didn't buy a project! > > This plane was perfect. Tested but not old, solid as a rock, materials and workmanship in the build perfectly documented and beyond question in my mind. So I jump in it (it's the short fuse) and about cry. No way I can manipulate the rudder.... I'm heartbroken. Dick says to taxi it around. I've never even taxied a tailwheel plane in my LIFE! But, I decide to take him up on it. It starts on one pull, and with the steerable tailwheel I realize the pedals aren't too bad. I pull the trigger and strike a deal! > > Now, second problem. Remember no projects? Not quite true, I AM the project. Not only havn't I not taxied a tailwheel, I've never flown one either! Good news, this plane is in MN. I right then start a month long stint in a hotel in St Paul getting checked out a very similar plane... the venerable Airbus A-330... > > Ya, I went to MN late Sep to get checked out in two planes. One with a wingspan of the other's takeoff roll. > > Now, going to say this here. This is a great plane. But it's NOTHING compared to the man who agreed to let me buy it. Dick insisted it be freshly annualled. He insisted on a few other nice things. He hauled my butt out to that airport a dozen or more times. He had me over for dinner. In the buy, he agreed to help me with the annual condition inspection if I bring it to Brodhead. He agreed to letting me keep it in his hangar (possibly till next spring!) until I can ferry it a thousand miles home. More than all of that, just one hell of a great guy. One might say I bought a good friend and got a free plane in the deal, but friends like that can't be bought at any price. > > So, Dick helps me find a tailwheel instructor at Osceola (where the plane is) and patiently waits around on a couple trips while I get an endorsement. Two rides in a 180hp Super Decathalon (in the front seat) and I have an endorsement. YIKES. Took one more ride in the back seat of a 110hp BRAND NEW Champ. Uh, that thing had a moving map display with terrain alerting! It's better than the map in a $100 million dollar Airbus! Very gusty, feel better.... but still... yikes. > > Two days ago I run the Piet up and down the grass strip with the tail up... wow. First few tries I aborted way early in that process. But figured it out reasonably quick. Yesterday Dick takes me up for a few landings. THAT HELPED a TON. So, under no pressure at all (it was a BEAUTIFUL day), the builder and my son there watching, only a few hours after my type rating ride with the FAA in an Airbus A330, I flew the Piet! > > What a day. Nearly 20 years of waiting for that, I flew solo for the first time since Mar 1, 1999 (and that was a A-4), my first light civil flight since July of 1982, I got to fly a Piet. > > I'm flying the Airbus to Barcelona tomorrow, so hope to get up next week to ferry the Piet back. Going to be a fun few days for my son and I. > > I would be interested in recommendations for fuel and overnight stops between St Paul and Chatt TN if anyone knows that route well. > > Don't worry, this has completely increased my resolve to get cracking on my Piet. Not giving up on that at all. Besides, don't want to fight my son for time in the plane! > > Cheers, > > Tools > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353516#353516 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
From: "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
No doubt having Dick's bird to reference while I build (hence the excitement about it being configured so closely to how I want to build) will be invaluable. As well as being more prepared to flying it. I agree, flying one I built is the next big thrill in my flying world. I made a very serious omission in my initial writeup in that I forgot to mention how warm a welcome I got in MSP from both the EAA community and the Piet guys especially. Dick was also super gracious in that he came and hauled my butt to the weekly meetings in his hangar in Crystal, where the club Piet is being built. I got 75% done (thought I had one more visit.... dammit!) with mortising in the hinges in the horizontal stab/elevators. Lots of fun and great to get some hands on several nights. Was also treated to a ride way down to his EAA chapter's hangar and meeting everyone there and a temporary pass to enter the SAC... Really a lot of great guys. Kinda funny, but being a former military pilot and lifelong aviation junky anyway, I've been to TONS of airshows, mostly big, and some small. Well, went to Osceola's yearly airshow (this year combined with a car show) and coincidently ran into no less than six people I knew (all met within the previous week or two). I ran into two people I knew at Oshkosh two years ago, but that's it over the last 30 or so years of airshows. VERY friendly and open folks. Thanks to everyone for making a month long stint in a hotel a VERY memorable and fun time (and I've got a number of these month and longer stints in hotels, ships and shacks in the dessert under my belt)! Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353532#353532 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 29, 2011
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
All you describe doesn't compare to showing up at Brodhead and seeing 30 guys you know! Ben On 9/29/2011 1:38 PM, tools wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tools" > > No doubt having Dick's bird to reference while I build (hence the excitement about it being configured so closely to how I want to build) will be invaluable. As well as being more prepared to flying it. I agree, flying one I built is the next big thrill in my flying world. > > I made a very serious omission in my initial writeup in that I forgot to mention how warm a welcome I got in MSP from both the EAA community and the Piet guys especially. > > Dick was also super gracious in that he came and hauled my butt to the weekly meetings in his hangar in Crystal, where the club Piet is being built. I got 75% done (thought I had one more visit.... dammit!) with mortising in the hinges in the horizontal stab/elevators. Lots of fun and great to get some hands on several nights. > > Was also treated to a ride way down to his EAA chapter's hangar and meeting everyone there and a temporary pass to enter the SAC... Really a lot of great guys. > > Kinda funny, but being a former military pilot and lifelong aviation junky anyway, I've been to TONS of airshows, mostly big, and some small. Well, went to Osceola's yearly airshow (this year combined with a car show) and coincidently ran into no less than six people I knew (all met within the previous week or two). I ran into two people I knew at Oshkosh two years ago, but that's it over the last 30 or so years of airshows. VERY friendly and open folks. > > Thanks to everyone for making a month long stint in a hotel a VERY memorable and fun time (and I've got a number of these month and longer stints in hotels, ships and shacks in the dessert under my belt)! > > Tools > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353532#353532 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: "The Last Original" Fly's Again
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Was just informed that the Last Original flew today at the Brodhead airport. Rebuilt Corvair fired on the first blade. They are going to try and post a video soon. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353540#353540 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
What a story! Good luck with your new bird, and your project. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353543#353543 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: machined control horns?
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
I am ONE of the people that have made them, but I've decided not to use them. Primarily because they would require some welding that would later be covered by fabric... in other words, not easily inspectable. They turned out looking nice, but that wasn't the point really. Take my word for it and fabricate a set according to plans. They really are easy and very strong. And yes, lighter to boot. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353544#353544 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Congrats..... one of the best posts I have read in quite a while....... flying and friendships, very nice......... -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353553#353553 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: rib wedges and one more question
From: "Kyle85" <boschkyle(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Hello once again, just getting ready to start my wing c-section soon. My first question is do I install wedges between the rib and the spar, like the plans call for? OR do i oversize the spar and taper it down to facilitate the ribs. I do remember somthing awhile back about using plywood spacers, but can't seem to dig it up on the archives. Also, do I need to put the ribs with the extra supports on the rib root and on the outer portion of the center section? Thanks again -Kyle[/list] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353558#353558 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: rib wedges and one more question
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Kyle, I used spruce wedges. A beveled spar would work fine, but is adding a considerable amount of weight for no benefit (in between the ribs). You need the ribs with extra support at the root and tip to withstand the tension of the fabric, which can exert an incredible amount of force. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle85 Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 5:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: rib wedges and one more question Hello once again, just getting ready to start my wing c-section soon. My first question is do I install wedges between the rib and the spar, like the plans call for? OR do i oversize the spar and taper it down to facilitate the ribs. I do remember somthing awhile back about using plywood spacers, but can't seem to dig it up on the archives. Also, do I need to put the ribs with the extra supports on the rib root and on the outer portion of the center section? Thanks again -Kyle[/list] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353558#353558 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
Date: Sep 29, 2011
Thanks Mike I'm reaaly going to miss that Pietenpol, it's going to be tough not hearing that put put. Now I'll listen to that Rotec instead. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards. > > No doubt having Dick's bird to reference while I build (hence the > excitement about it being configured so closely to how I want to build) > will be invaluable. As well as being more prepared to flying it. I > agree, flying one I built is the next big thrill in my flying world. > > I made a very serious omission in my initial writeup in that I forgot to > mention how warm a welcome I got in MSP from both the EAA community and > the Piet guys especially. > > Dick was also super gracious in that he came and hauled my butt to the > weekly meetings in his hangar in Crystal, where the club Piet is being > built. I got 75% done (thought I had one more visit.... dammit!) with > mortising in the hinges in the horizontal stab/elevators. Lots of fun and > great to get some hands on several nights. > > Was also treated to a ride way down to his EAA chapter's hangar and > meeting everyone there and a temporary pass to enter the SAC... Really a > lot of great guys. > > Kinda funny, but being a former military pilot and lifelong aviation junky > anyway, I've been to TONS of airshows, mostly big, and some small. Well, > went to Osceola's yearly airshow (this year combined with a car show) and > coincidently ran into no less than six people I knew (all met within the > previous week or two). I ran into two people I knew at Oshkosh two years > ago, but that's it over the last 30 or so years of airshows. VERY > friendly and open folks. > > Thanks to everyone for making a month long stint in a hotel a VERY > memorable and fun time (and I've got a number of these month and longer > stints in hotels, ships and shacks in the dessert under my belt)! > > Tools > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353532#353532 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: cable tension
Date: Sep 30, 2011
I think I've posted this reply before, but here's what I did on Scout when re-rigging the struts and wings. I set up the wing geometry the way I wanted it (washout and dihedral), then tensioned the strut X-brace cables to where they were nice and snug but not tight enough to worry me. How's that for scientific? I then used a simple cable tensiometer from the local marine supply house (sailboats) to make sure all the cable tensions were about equal. You can do the same by twanging to see if they sound the same. Same thing for the tail brace cables. You should note that all the cables pull against one another to hold the assembly in rigid geometric relationship to one another and that's all. If you over-tension them, you begin to distort things or pre-load them in ways that are not intended. The essence of geometric and structural bracing is to prevent things from getting started in a direction that you don't want them to go, because once they get started in that direction, things become (as we engineers say) "asymptotic" or "divergent". So you're not trying to tighten your suspenders so tight that you jam your chin into your crotch, so to speak... you're just trying to hold them in place so that everything stays in proper geometric relationship to everything else. This is a case where enough is just right, but more is not always better and not enough can be disastrous. And remember that Bernard Pietenpol did not own a computer or a calculator and that he died of natural causes after flying numerous experimental aircraft of his own design, as a test pilot of each of them. May we emulate him, and enjoy life as a result. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" Flying Squirrel N2069Z "Rocket" Medford, OR website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ok, so I cheated and am doing this backwards.
From: "Dale McCleskey" <dale.mccleskey(at)lifeway.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2011
Congratulations. You obviously couldn't do better than getting Dick's workmanship. On route. I'm in Lebanon, TN (M-54) we have a grass strip, so come and see us. Then on the trip to Brodhead I've used Ohio County (7K4) no grass, but it's a good place to stop and friendly people, then due to various weather conditions I've used Sullivan County (SIV) and Vermillion (DNV), Pontiac (PNT), and Dixon Walgreen (C73), though my favorite of all it Dwight, Ill. (DTG). You get a grass strip in a soybean field and to meet the elderly couple who run the tiny airport. After they'd fueled my plane, on the way back from Brodhead, I found they didn't take a credit card. They gave me a ticket and said mail them a check. Such folks are what makes low and slow so extremely worthwhile because of the people you meet along the way. -------- Dale McCleskey N7035N Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353627#353627 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: cable tension
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Sep 30, 2011
All I know is "ping" is too tight. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353634#353634 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: machined control horns?
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Sep 30, 2011
Has anyone tried doing the control horns in sheet aluminum? I'm thinking .032 2024T3 bent like the steel ones but edge riveted. Might save a pound or two on that long lever arm back to the tail for cg and would be easier to corrosion treat. I have a guess that they would be strong enough, though not as strong as the steel version. The question is just how strong is strong enough. Since control surface travel is limited by physical stops in most cases, the max load would be aerodynamic. Any engineers out there have a clue on the aero load forces? That sort of math makes my head hurt. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353640#353640 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gboothe5" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: machined control horns?
Date: Sep 30, 2011
My first reaction was, "Why?" Then, I gave it some more thought..........Why? You're driving Dan Helsper to drink! Gary from Cool -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dgaldrich Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 10:45 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: machined control horns? Has anyone tried doing the control horns in sheet aluminum? I'm thinking .032 2024T3 bent like the steel ones but edge riveted. Might save a pound or two on that long lever arm back to the tail for cg and would be easier to corrosion treat. I have a guess that they would be strong enough, though not as strong as the steel version. The question is just how strong is strong enough. Since control surface travel is limited by physical stops in most cases, the max load would be aerodynamic. Any engineers out there have a clue on the aero load forces? That sort of math makes my head hurt. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353640#353640 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: "The Last Original" Fly's Again
From: "dwilson" <marwilson(at)charter.net>
Date: Sep 30, 2011
Do you remember what she looked like just a couple of months ago during Brodhead? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353681#353681 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn8084_204.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2011
From: JOSEPH SWITHIN <joeswithin(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: doing it backwards
If you stop at Dwight, IL (it is on may way home), Pontiac, IL (about two miles from my office) or even Morris, Il (not to far north of where I live) and I can be of any service, let me know. If you need a place to overnight, I can accomodate that also. Just contact me off line and we can make arrangements. Joe Swithin In the middle of harvest, but I still find time to read this groups activities and dream. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 01, 2011
Subject: Aerolite glue
From: Jeff Souders <piperj3cubflyer(at)gmail.com>
Hello, I am looking at buying a 15 year old Piet N6EJ that was made with Aerolite glue. Should I be concern with this glue? Thanks Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
Date: Oct 01, 2011
The ribs on NX18235 were assembled in 1997 with Aerolite adhesive. 260 flight hours are on the ribs and they haven't fallen apart yet... Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Souders To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 5:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aerolite glue Hello, I am looking at buying a 15 year old Piet N6EJ that was made with Aerolite glue. Should I be concern with this glue? Thanks Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 01, 2011
Where are you located Jeff? Just curious... wondering if N6EJ will be leaving our area. :( -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353749#353749 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Miter Joints on ribs
From: "flea" <jimgriggs(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
K5YAC wrote: > Ohh, now look at that. Strange how we look at things differently. All of my verticals were butted to the ribs while the diagonals were fitted in between the verticals... opposite of yours. I guess there is no right or wrong way structurally, but that just looks more difficult to me, although it is essentially the same. > > All of my verticals are butted up against the capstrips as well. I found it to be much easier and faster that way. I have a baggy of gussets cut out and ready to go, though I must be honest all of my gussets are the same size with the exception of the nose. I can have a rib lad out and glued up in around 30 minutes using my jig, a sharp mechanical pencil, and a bandsaw. All verticals are square (as much as they can be) and all of the diagonals will have two angles at each end marked out with the sharp pencil, then it's just a matter of a few seconds in the saw for each piece. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353757#353757 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
From: piperj3cubflyer <piperj3cubflyer(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
I live north of Chickasha, Ok KCHK about 10 miles. On Oct 1, 2011, at 11:03 PM, "K5YAC" wrote: > > Where are you located Jeff? Just curious... wondering if N6EJ will be leaving our area. :( > > -------- > Mark Chouinard > Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353749#353749 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
From: "Larry V" <larryvangerven(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
Hi In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased. Thanks Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: KTA Aluminum Control Horn
I dug these pictures out of my picture/video archive of my building process of NX992WD.- I had designed and fabricated a one piece aluminum control horn a few years ago. I was not looking forward to the welding involved wit h the steel fittings as shown on the plans, so I wondered about one piece a luminum horns.- This prototype was made from 6061-T6. I beveled the edges some for weight savings and aerodynamics. I guess one could go as far as d rilling/cutting out lightning holes as well... - Anyhoo, I was reminded that a flat horn will not be as aero. as the steel o nes made in a airfoil shape.- If I remember, the weight difference betwee n this one and a fabricated steel one was minimal. (It must have been...oth erwise I may have continued with making aluminum ones.)- Plus, I was not entirely sure about vibration effects, loading, twist, etc. so I abandoned the idea all together. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
Larry, 3/16" bolts are-AN3 bolt size. (also known as #10.)- Any aircraf t supply place will sell AN3 bolts in various grip lengths. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
From: "Larry V" <larryvangerven(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
Michael Thank you for your reply on the bolts Larry V Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353776#353776 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
You are welcome. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
Date: Oct 02, 2011
Larry Ron Wanttaja's Fly Baby website has a bunch of good references that you should print out and hang in your shop. http://www.wanttaja.com/shopsheets/index.html The one that answers your question is the Bolt Basic sheet. But don't stop here look at the rest of them and you will see a wealth of information condensed onto one page. Chris Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry V Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 7:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol --> Hi In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased. Thanks Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
Date: Oct 02, 2011
Larry Try Aircraft Spruce An -3 Bolts Call them at 877-477-7823 or Wicks Aircraft Supply at 800-221-9425 Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry V" <larryvangerven(at)hotmail.com> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:00 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol > > > Hi > In the Pietenpol plans it calls for 3/16 in bolts . I cannot seem to find > these bolts. Does anyone no where these can be purchased. > Thanks Larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353771#353771 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: 3/16 inch bolts for Pietenpol
From: "Larry V" <larryvangerven(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
Chris and Dick thank you for your reply Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353825#353825 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Graham Hansen" <ghans@cable-lynx.net>
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
Date: Oct 02, 2011
I began construction of my Pietenpol during the winter of 1959 using Aerolite almost exclusively. The only other glue I used was Weldwood Plastic Resin on some wing ribs. This glue was a good product back then and, if it is still available, may not be so today. I date back to the time when casein glue was the approved glue for aircraft use, and just about anything used since is superior to casein glue,.including Weldwood PR and Aerolite. I have seen DH Tiger Moth wings that were more-or-less held together by the fabric after the casein glue joints in the ribs had failed! For various reasons I did not finish myPietenpol until 1970, and have been flying it ever since. Initially it was covered with Grade A cotton fabric and had a hand-rubbed butyrate dope finish. Since cotton has a limited life, I recovered it in 1985 using polyester fabric and butyrate dope, and had a chance to check the glue joints. There was no problem with the Weldwood PR glue joints anywhere, but a few Aerolite joints at the wing trailing edge had failed for some reason. Elsewhere they were sound. I re-glued the failed joints using epoxy adhesive because I figured re-gluing them with Aerolite would not be a good idea. (The trailing edge-to-rib gussets are too small, in my opinion, and I followed the plans. If I were to do another one, I would icrease their size by using a triangular shape and I would use T-88 everywhere.) BTW, I used Yellow Cedar for the trailing edge because it has a high resistance to rot. However, it doesn't glue too well! My airplane has been hangared for perhaps 95% of its life and has a little over 840 hours on it. Never damaged (Touch wood!) and after 26 years the polyester fabric is stll good. I really would like to remove it and do a thorough inspection of the structure, but that isn't feasible for lack of workspace, etc. I do have lots of inspection openings, however, and haven't been able to discover any structural problems in the areas that can be inspected. In central Alberta, Canada our climate is generally quite dry and that favours longevity of a wooden structure. Other climates may not be so kind. In general, if the workmanship on an airplane is good and it has always been hangared, I wouldn't be too concerned about the use of Aerolite in its construction, but I would definitely install lots of inspection openings if they are not already there. Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2011
From: shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: my experiance with Aerolite glue
I bought an airplane project 10 years ago, not a piet-(and I am still wor king on it!), it was built using aerolite.- The fuselage is in great shap e, the wings were a different story.- Like your exsaple of the bad wings at sun and fun, I was able to pop gussets off the spar-compression strut jo ints with 2 fingers.- Found at least a dozen like that.- I scrapped the wings and built all new ones, eaiser and lighter than un-doing all the gus sets etc, etc.- While building my new wings (T-88 this time), I think I f igured out why the joints were bad on the originals.- When assembling the ribs to the spars each rib has 4 gussets on top, bot of spars. The easiest way to assemble was to 1st prep all gussets, ribs, spars, then apply the g lue to all the glue joint areas, and have the gussets right next to the ass embly with the nails already started.- Next pick up the corosponding guss et and nail it on, .- If the builder did this with aerolight glue, and pu t the glue on the spars, ribs, and activator on the gusets and let them sit close to the open glue joint for an extended amount of time, the fumes from the activator can start the glue curing before the joint is presed togeath er.- This I am told will "crust over" the glue, and a weak joint is proba ble.- - As with anything, you must follow the manufactures instructions for any glu e, or product you use.- Aerolite, when properly applied, is great stuff, But for ease of use I will stay with T-88. - Shad ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: GN-1 short vid
From: "TriScout" <apfelcyber(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
..well, I flew the GN-1 last month and happened to have a little camera in my pocket, so I captured some crude video during my maiden flight in it. It really isn't a "maiden" flight since it's been flying since 1980, but it is first hop w/it's 4th A65...as well as my first tailwheel flight in awhile...so it felt maiden enough to me. I tried to play w/editing software on my Vista..seems easy enough...what a blast. I felt like 16 again on first solo. I have 2 flts in it, then back on the road for a couple weeks. In HKG as I write this. My wife put it on "you-chube".. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFxpVnC4VqQ Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353835#353835 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Another Video - Brodhead 2011
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2011
Even though I was not able to be there this year, Brodhead 2011 looked like a good time. I took some video and photo footage and played with it a little bit, and put it to some appropriate music. It was fun to do, so I hope that you enjoy seeing it. I am looking forward to Brodhead 2012. Tools and I may be cooking up something (figuratively, not literally) that we hope many of you be able to participate in. Til then... -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353844#353844 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2011
From: johnwoods(at)westnet.com.au
Subject: Re: my experiance with Aerolite glue
Shad wrote: "If the builder did this with aerolight glue, and put the glue on the spars ,=C2- ibs, and activator on the gusets and let them sit close to the open glue joint for an extended amount of time, the fumes from the activator ca n start the glue curing before the joint is presed togeather.=C2- This I am told will "crust over" the glue, and a weak joint is probable." It is=C2-for this very reason that CASA Australia do not accept this type of glue joint on aircraft. CASA does not have any objection to "modern" adhesives, including Urea Form aldehyde (Aerolite), Resorcinol Formaldehyde and=C2-Casien adhesives. Casien is a milk based product which can be attacked by micro-organisms und er the right humidity conditions over a period of time. The "modern" Casien has a=C2-fungiside which prevents the deterioration b y micro-organisms. See attached AWB 02-11 for wood and adhesives. Just for information. JohnW ================ == ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Aerolite glue
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Two points: 1) Rodney, when building a laminated spar or longeron, the grain directions of the laminated strips should match. In the case of a spar, the resultant grain should be horizontal, when the spar is standing upright. In other words, if you look at the spar installed in the wing, the grain lines should look like a very tall deck of cards (grain lines about 3/4" long). In the case of longerons, since they are usually square, so the orientation isn't an issue. The grain direction of the individual layers should stack on top of each other. and 2) Very nice to see a post from Graham Hansen. As always, full of well thought out, useful, practical advice, based on personal experience and logic. Thanks for sharing, Graham. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353869#353869 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Photo
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Cool pic Kevin. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353911#353911 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob edson" <robertse(at)centurytel.net>
Subject: NX53WE
Date: Oct 03, 2011
I think you will be able to see our piet,we have the tail feathers painted. Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Photo
Hi Kevin, Looks good but wouldn't it be neat if you could pose in period clothes. Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: NX53WE
Bob very nice colors and glossy too! What paint are you using? Whole Piet should be beautiful. Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NX53WE
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Dang! I really like blue and yellow too! Although I've been forbidden to have any thoughts of color scheme, in the back of my mind those two colors are one of my favorite combinations. I saw a blue and yellow Culver Cadet on our field last year that I really liked... dropped everything just to watch it taxi, fuel and take back off. Oh well, you weren't the first and I won't be the last if I choose that combo. Looks really beautiful! Please tell us what you are using. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353927#353927 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Photo
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Bill was there, you just didn't recognize him because he was in drag too. I on the other hand was NOT there... just going on what I was told. Yep, that is a much better (and Mueller approved) photo. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353936#353936 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Photo
shoot, there for a minute I thought we were going to see Shelley in a really pretty dress. Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 03, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Photo
Much better photo Kevin; cool looking car too. Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Photo
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Large pictures are easy to view. Just right click on the photo then left click view picture Cool picture too. When I saw the first pic my thought was the price of pixels must have gone sky high from the size of that one. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353948#353948 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Photo
From: "Piet2112" <curtdm(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
[quote="boyerjrb(at)comcast.net"]Hi Kevin, Looks good but wouldn't it be neat if you could pose in period clothes. Jim B. > [b] If Kevin were to pose, it should be in clothes, period. Curt Merdan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353966#353966 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the 1x1
for
From: "PShipman" <perrytshipman(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
I know I am missing something very obvious ... but ... Unwrapping and inventorying the fuselage kit from Aircraft Spruce reveals 16 pieces of 1" x 1" x 25" ... AND ... 11 pieces of 1" x 1" x 37". Plus there is all the normal wood to build the "improved" 1932 design ... Are the extra pieces for building a stronger/heavier fuselage for a larger engine? An inquiring (and confused) mind wants to know :P -------- Perry Shipman Lakeside, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353977#353977 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 for
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Sounds like tail section parts. If AS&S hasn't changed the part list too much, the attached document should be helpful. I've copied the following text from a previous thread I posted a while back. ----- I know this wasn't requested, but with several new interested parties on the boards, I figured I'd offer a list that has been very helpful to me. This might be published elsewhere, but it was forwarded to me by someone here (probably Markle) and I reference it often when trying to decide which pieces to use for certain assemblies. The original list that I received was compiled by Bob McKinley. I think he must have been one of the Ohio guys as there was a Buckeye Piet sketch in the margin, but I'm not sure. Certainly someone here knows of him. The list I recieved was a scanned image of an old document that was typed up on a typewriter, and some of the notes were difficult to make out. If I had that file I would offer it too, but I'm afraid I've deleted it, or at least misplaced it among all my Pietenpol goodies. Anyhow, I used Bob's list to inventory my wood package when it was delivered. It was pretty close to right on... the spar thickness was different (3/4" instead of 1"), and Aircraft Spruce offered a couple of additional parts in the tail section (I've noted all of these on the new list), otherwise it is very handy in helping to sort out all the parts one might need to assemble this airplane, whether you choose to purchase a wood package or cut your own parts. All of Bob's notes are included in the notes section, but I've added a few of my own to this modern version too IN BOLD. I hope this helps some of you as much as it has helped me. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353979#353979 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/material_list_158.pdf ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 for
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Oh, now I see FUSELAGE kit... I was thinking that you received the entire package. I'm not sure what items are included in the wood package, but the list should be helpful none the less. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353980#353980 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 for
From: "PShipman" <perrytshipman(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Mark ... thanks much for the list ... all of the fuselage items are there but in addition there are the short 1 x 1 pieces that I mentioned ... far more than called for ... Pretty sure these are not for the tail as the tail kit has the longer pieces mentioned in the list, not these short ones ... If nothing else ... we have some really nice extra wood! AN ADDITIONAL QUESTION :) ... the blueprints are not terrible clear on the wood/size to use to frame up the seats (other than the white ash pieces) ... can you give us an idea of what to use there? Thanks -------- Perry Shipman Lakeside, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353981#353981 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 for
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Can't help you there... I haven't built my seats yet and don't have my plans handy. Perhaps someone else will help. As for the plans not being terribly clear... it is surprising how much information is there... you may have to look in more than one place. I'm not saying that the dimension you are looking for IS there, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that other measurements might be interpolated to arrive a the one you are looking for. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353982#353982 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: More Pietenpol Roots in Oklahoma
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
I received a phone call earlier this evening from a girl named Angie Hyatt. My first thought was, "ok, what are you selling Angie?" After she introduced herself she went on to tell me that she lives in Owasso (a few miles from me and my project) and that someone had forwarded her a copy of my writing from the BPA Newsletter. Ok, now I'm listening! She said, "the man in the photo standing in front of the Scout is my Great Grandfather, Orrin Hoopman... do you know who he is?" I said, "well yes, I'm working on an airplane that he drew the plans for." She replied, "Oh? You are building a Pietenpol?" I explained that I am, hence the reason that I was involved with the newsletter. She didn't have a full copy of the newsletter, just the one page and she didn't seem to be fully aware of what BPA is. Anyhow, she went on to tell me that her Great Grandfather (Hoopman) used to fly 10718 to go visit his girlfriend. She said, "Most of my family is in Cherry Grove, Minnesota... my parents moved to Oklahoma with the Army just before I was born." Angie's mother, Cathy Ryan lives just a few miles away in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma... the same town where 10718 now resides... they are going to go see it tomorrow. Angie asked if she and her family could stop by to look at my project sometime since we are right down the road. Of course I obliged. She added that her Grandmother (Orrin Hoopman's daughter), Bernie Finke (wife of John Finke) would be here this winter for a visit and asked if she could bring her by to look as well. I told her I would fire up the heater. Angie went to Brodhead in 1999 with her family and she said they had a wonderful time, but she wasn't aware of the huge following for the design. I told her that there is still a great interest in building and flying this design, and that there is a fairly large group of people carrying on daily discussions and debates about the very plans her Great Grandfather drew up. Anyhow... I'm certainly no historian on all things Pietenpol, so we exchanged our information and agreed to get together this week to look things over. I did mention Chet Peek's book, "The Pietenpol Story"... she said that she has a copy, but has never read it. I said, "You should, your Great Grandfather and a man named Don Finke (maybe John's Dad?) are mentioned quite a bit." Very interesting and out of the blue phone call. This story is obviously still developing, so I'll post an update at a later time. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353984#353984 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 fo
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
Perry, I see you have met Ryan, our resident "short fuse". LOL! But he is right, it is like a big puzzle. A LOT of things don't seem real evident at first glance, or even second or third for that matter, but it's all there. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353985#353985 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 fo
From: "PShipman" <perrytshipman(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2011
i must say that what is fun about this IS the big puzzle aspect of it! There was a comment made that there was really a lot of buried information in the plans, etc. Sure finding that to be true. Every time I read back over a sheet I see something new. Also reading the notes from the 1932 articles have a lot of insights. Must say that this project is like a great wife (I've been married to a great one for forty years ) ... every day this is something new to discover! -------- Perry Shipman Lakeside, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353986#353986 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: More Pietenpol Roots in Oklahoma
Date: Oct 04, 2011
Very Cool, Mark! It's nice to be able to keep the history alive, isn't it? Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of K5YAC Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:07 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: More Pietenpol Roots in Oklahoma I received a phone call earlier this evening from a girl named Angie Hyatt. My first thought was, "ok, what are you selling Angie?" After she introduced herself she went on to tell me that she lives in Owasso (a few miles from me and my project) and that someone had forwarded her a copy of my writing from the BPA Newsletter. Ok, now I'm listening! She said, "the man in the photo standing in front of the Scout is my Great Grandfather, Orrin Hoopman... do you know who he is?" I said, "well yes, I'm working on an airplane that he drew the plans for." She replied, "Oh? You are building a Pietenpol?" I explained that I am, hence the reason that I was involved with the newsletter. She didn't have a full copy of the newsletter, just the one page and she didn't seem to be fully aware of what BPA is. Anyhow, she went on to tell me that her Great Grandfather (Hoopman) used to fly 10718 to go visit his girlfriend. She said, "Most of my family is in Cherry Grove, Minnesota... my parents moved to Oklahoma with the Army just before I was born." Angie's mother, Cathy Ryan lives just a few miles away in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma... the same town where 10718 now resides... they are going to go see it tomorrow. Angie asked if she and her family could stop by to look at my project sometime since we are right down the road. Of course I obliged. She added that her Grandmother (Orrin Hoopman's daughter), Bernie Finke (wife of John Finke) would be here this winter for a visit and asked if she could bring her by to look as well. I told her I would fire up the heater. Angie went to Brodhead in 1999 with her family and she said they had a wonderful time, but she wasn't aware of the huge following for the design. I told her that there is still a great interest in building and flying this design, and that there is a fairly large group of people carrying on daily discussions and debates about the very plans her Great Grandfather drew up. Anyhow... I'm certainly no historian on all things Pietenpol, so we exchanged our information and agreed to get together this week to look things over. I did mention Chet Peek's book, "The Pietenpol Story"... she said that she has a copy, but has never read it. I said, "You should, your Great Grandfather and a man named Don Finke (maybe John's Dad?) are mentioned quite a bit." Very interesting and out of the blue phone call. This story is obviously still developing, so I'll post an update at a later time. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353984#353984 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bob edson" <robertse(at)centurytel.net>
Subject: NX53WE
Date: Oct 04, 2011
In answer to what paint we are useing it is the stuart system. It as a little pricey but it is water base with no odor and it is easy to work with. It makes a good tough finish and is very elastic. I am enjoying every minute of it. Have a great day, Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: More Pietenpol Roots in Oklahoma
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Oct 04, 2011
Yes Jack, it is nice... and it makes the journey more interesting as well. -------- Mark Chouinard Wings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on Fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353997#353997 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 for
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Oct 04, 2011
Perry, After reading your question I took a look at the Aircraft Spruce website to see what exactly is included in the "Fuselage Kit", and all I could find was the product number and a price. Same for the "Wing Kit". That seems odd for two items totalling almost $1500. Funny thing is that the "Stab and Elevator Kit" and the "Fin and Rudder Kit" each have a breakdown of the parts included in the kits, whereas the larger kits have no breakdown. Until recently, Aircraft Spruce offered only one wood kit for the Pietenpol, which was supposedly all of the spruce needed to build the plane (minus the capstrips for the ribs, for some reason). I believe that the wood kit was based on the sheet that Mark posted. Not long ago, the individual kits were introduced, and the full kit was no longer offered. On the Aircraft Spruce website there IS a disclaimer that says that the kits are based on a list provided to them years ago, and may or may not be correct, and that it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that the materials included in the kit are correct. That sounds like a good rule to follow when buying ANYTHING, but I'm curious as to how one is to verify the sizes and quantities if none are listed. In the case of the Plywood Kit, one really should check carefully, since the "Plywood Kit" includes 10 sheets of plywood, and there simply is not that much plywood required to build a Pietenpol (unless you need to make everything THREE times instead of the normal two :) ). So, to get back to your question... without knowing exactly what was included in your "Fuselage Kit", it's hard to say what all the 1" x 1" would be for. I would assume that Aircraft Spruce sent you a breakdown of all the items included in your kit. If so, why don't you scan a copy (or take a photo) and post it here so that we can see exactly what you got. If the "extra" wood really is extra, the question is "Did you pay for the extra wood, or was it a bonus?". If it is extra (as in "not required"), and you did pay for it, then why is it part of the kit? Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=353998#353998 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuselage Kit from Aircraft Spruce ... what's all the
1x1 for
From: "PShipman" <perrytshipman(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2011
Bill, Thanks for the note back! I appreciate comments on the AS changes over the years. Do note that the "complete kit" is still available in the catalog ... would have been much more interesting if we'd seen it earlier in the process. As far as the manifest ... it clearly lists 1 fuselage kit ... with absolutely no breakdown of items ... this is probably why I've always ended up broke ... never check those things. Anyway ... life is a great puzzle and that is why it is so much fun! Perry -------- Perry Shipman Lakeside, CA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354001#354001 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: NX53WE
Bob: Question on the Stewart system of paints. I was under the impression that the Stuart system was water based up to the point where color was added. Then it became full hazmat suit and make up air required. If this impression is wrong I would really like to know about it. Thanks, Tom Stinemetze N328X >>> "Bob edson" 10/4/2011 7:12 AM >>> In answer to what paint we are useing it is the stuart system. It as a little pricey but it is water base with no odor and it is easy to work with. It makes a good tough finish and is very elastic. I am enjoying every minute of it. Have a great day, Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Photo
boy talk about a tough crowd! Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: NX53WE
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Oct 04, 2011
Tom, Check out Stewart's website for more info. Their coatings are water-borne, so there are no hazardous solvents. I don't think there's any need for a haz-mat suit. http://www.stewartsystems.aero/benefits.aspx Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354025#354025 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: TheStewart System
From: helspersew(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 04, 2011
Hi Tom, The Stewart System color coats are really neat. There is the color part, th e hardener part, and added to that is water. At that point it starts the cu ring process, and I found that the available spray time (if I remember righ t) is about 45 minutes. A spray suit is recommended, because the overspray is sticky. Outside air supply is not needed, only the same canister-type re spirator that is used for spraying the primer coats. After spraying, everyt hing is cleaned up with warm water. I found it to be very easy to work with . I don't understand the chemistry, but the end result (I think this is the claim of the Stewarts) is a true polyurethane. My finish was not as glossy , because of my lowsy equipment and skill level. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: TOM STINEMETZE <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 9:47 am Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: NX53WE Bob: Question on the Stewart system of paints. I was under the impression that the Stuart system was water based up to the point where color was added. T hen it became full hazmat suit and make up air required. If this impressio n is wrong I would really like to know about it. Thanks, Tom Stinemetze N328X >>> "Bob edson" 10/4/2011 7:12 AM >>> In answer to what paint we are useing it is the stuart system. It as a litt le pricey but it is water base with no odor and it is easy to work with. It makes a good tough finish and is very elastic. I am enjoying every minute of it. Have a great day, Bob -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Dan: Thanks for that reply. I have an e-mail in to the Stewart's folks with the same question and I hope I get the same answer. I will post their reply to the list when I receive it. Anyway, I got the information that the color coat required a full respirator from the teacher at an EAA Sportair Workshop on fabric covering. She is a professional aircraft painter so I gave her input serious weight. However, I will also state that the PolyFiber folks provided all of the materials used in the workshop so there may have been some bias sneak in - not necessarily intentional. Considering the potential health effects, I believe it is good to have the right dope on this (so to speak.) Tom Stinemetze N328X McPherson, Ks. >>> 10/4/2011 11:32 AM >>> Hi Tom, The Stewart System color coats are really neat. There is the color part, the hardener part, and added to that is water. At that point it starts the curing process, and I found that the available spray time (if I remember right) is about 45 minutes. A spray suit is recommended, because the overspray is sticky. Outside air supply is not needed, only the same canister-type respirator that is used for spraying the primer coats. After spraying, everything is cleaned up with warm water. I found it to be very easy to work with. I don't understand the chemistry, but the end result (I think this is the claim of the Stewarts) is a true polyurethane. My finish was not as glossy, because of my lowsy equipment and skill level. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Jack: I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance used to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a time down in class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting too tacky. Stinemetze >>> "Jack" 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> Shad, Im close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak) to adhere the fabric. Jack DSM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Stewart's Systems requirements
As promised, here is the reply from the Stewart's Systems representative. Tom When shooting our EkoPoly catalyzed top coat all you need is a charcoal respirator. No need for fresh air. Regards, Jason Gerard Stewart Systems 1-888-356-7659 www.stewartsystems.aero ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: Doug Dever <helio400(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
You are correct Dan.- It is a true urethane.- The one part stuff you bu y for wood etc. is not.- I'm not sure of the catalyst.- In solvent base d it's an isocyanate, which is a known carcinogen. (Reason for the suit as it is absorbed through the skin and especially mucus membranes)- I am ver y skeptical of water based paints.- They have not been able to come up wi th a durable one in the automotive industry yet.- Time will tell.=0A- =0ABTW- I thought your finish was much better than acceptable.- At least in the pics:)=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "helspersew@ aol.com" =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Tu esday, October 4, 2011 12:32 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: TheStewart Syste m=0A=0A=0AHi Tom,=0A=0AThe Stewart System color coats are really neat. Ther e is the color part, the hardener part, and added to that is water. At that point it starts the curing process, and I found that the available spray t ime (if I remember right) is about 45 minutes. A spray suit is recommended, because the overspray is sticky. Outside air supply is not needed, only th e same canister-type respirator that is used for spraying the primer coats. After spraying, everything is cleaned up with warm water. I found it to be very easy to work with. I don't understand the chemistry, but the end resu lt (I think this is the claim of the Stewarts) is a true polyurethane. My f inish was not as glossy, because of my lowsy equipment and skill level. =0A =0ADan Helsper=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A=0A-=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFro m: TOM STINEMETZE =0ATo: pietenpol-list =0ASent: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 9:47 am=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-Lis t: NX53WE=0A=0A=0ABob:=0A-=0AQuestion on the Stewart system of paints.- I was under the impression that the Stuart system was water based up to th e point where color was added.- Then it became full hazmat suit and make up air required.- If this impression is wrong I would really like to know about it.=0A-=0AThanks,=0ATom Stinemetze=0AN328X=0A=0A=0A>>> "Bob edson" 10/4/2011 7:12 AM >>>=0A=0AIn answer to what pai nt we are useing it is the stuart system. It as a little pricey but it is w ater base with no odor and it is easy to work with. It makes a good tough f inish and is very elastic. I am enjoying every minute of it.--- Have a great day,-- Bob=0A" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigat or?Pietenpol-Listp://forums.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.c ======================= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: Doug Dever <helio400(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
It's not the solvents in the solvent based urethanes that are nasty. (provi ded you use an approved respirator with adiquate ventalation.)- It's the isocyanate catalyst.- Nasty, nasty.=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________ ______=0AFrom: TOM STINEMETZE <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matro nics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:11 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol- List: TheStewart System=0A=0A=0ADan:=0A-=0AThanks for that reply.- I ha ve an e-mail in to the Stewart's folks with the same question and I hope I get the same answer.- I will post their reply to the list when I receive it.- Anyway, I got the information that the color coat required a full re spirator from the teacher at an EAA Sportair Workshop on fabric covering. - She is a professional aircraft painter so I gave her input serious weig ht.- However, I will also state that the PolyFiber folks provided all of the materials used in the workshop so there may have been some bias sneak i n - not necessarily intentional.- Considering the potential health effect s, I believe it is good to have the right dope on this-(so to speak.)=0A -=0ATom Stinemetze=0AN328X=0AMcPherson, Ks.=0A=0A=0A>>> 10/4/2011 11:32 AM >>>=0AHi Tom,=0A=0AThe Stewart System color coats ar e really neat. There is the color part, the hardener part, and added to tha t is water. At that point it starts the curing process, and I found that th e available spray time (if I remember right) is about 45 minutes. A spray s uit is recommended, because the overspray is sticky. Outside air supply is not needed, only the same canister-type respirator that is used for sprayin g the primer coats. After spraying, everything is cleaned up with warm wate r. I found it to be very easy to work with. I don't understand the chemistr y, but the end result (I think this is the claim of the Stewarts) is a true polyurethane. My finish was not as glossy, because of my lowsy equipment a ========= ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2011
I've seen some pretty finishes from that stuff but I'm still trying to figure out where you buy that diluted water? : Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354064#354064 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Campbell" <cncampbell(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Date: Oct 04, 2011
I thought the same thing! C ----- Original Message ----- From: "skellytown flyer" <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System > > > I've seen some pretty finishes from that stuff but I'm still trying to > figure out where you buy that diluted water? : > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354064#354064 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2011
From: Doug Dever <helio400(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
I think he meant distilled:)=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: skellytown flyer <skellflyer1(at)yahoo.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matroni cs.com=0ASent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:51 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: n flyer" =0A=0AI've seen some pretty finishes from t hat stuff but I'm still trying to figure out where you buy that diluted wat er? :=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matroni -======================== ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Date: Oct 04, 2011
I didn't know they made surgical gloves that big! Clif Shad, I'm close to covering and seriously considering Latex Jack DSM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Date: Oct 05, 2011
Tom, I have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options for consideration. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Jack: I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance used to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a time down in class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting too tacky. Stinemetze >>> "Jack" 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> Shad, I'm close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak) to adhere the fabric. Jack DSM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS(at)mcpcity.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Jack: No, now that I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see that you meant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint with latex. That's a good option and the correct choice of Polyfiber product. Since you are going to use latex anyway why not go with the Stewart's sticky stuff instead since it is waterborn and does not use that nasty MEK as a solvent? Stinemetze >>> "Jack" 10/5/2011 3:42 AM >>> Tom, I have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options for consideration. Jack DSM From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Jack: I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance used to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a time down in class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting too tacky. Stinemetze >>> "Jack" 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> Shad, Im close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak) to adhere the fabric. Jack DSM ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: NX53WE
Date: Oct 05, 2011
Painted the 6 Big Piets with the Stewart System. IMOP, it is regular poly paint. It has the paint, hardener and thinner. The thinner is water and evaporates away leaving a very tough 2 part paint. I painted about 4 nights per week for 6 months getting all 6 planes painted. Trying to get 5 of the 6 ready for Brodhead and Osh. we did not have the luxury of waiting for a perfect day to paint. I painted anyway, no matter what. You could only paint 4 coats at a time before drying, so it took 4 sesseions (afternoons) for each wing, fuselage, tail feathers, metal, struts, etc, etc, etc, etc. The temp and humidity varied from 20 degrees to 90 degrees in that time frame and humidity was from 100% to about 50%. On the cold days, we ran heat for about 45 min and heated the booth to over 100 degrees to try to heat the wing up. Still if the wing was too cold, the water would condense and run off the wing in puddles. Bottom line is this...The covering system is great and I will never use a MEK based system again. The waterborne paint is great if you have perfect conditions, but after the auto industry gets the paint perfected for millions of cars, we will benefit with airplane painting. By painting just one plane, maybe you will have several months to wait around for a couple of perfect days. If you weigh the paint as you mix and follow the instructions to the letter, you will have the toughest paint I have ever seen. Be sure to wear a good charcoal filter mask and change the pre-filter every 4 days of painting. Throw the mask away after a couple of months (or sooner if you had a bad cold) and buy a new one. Mold and gunk grow on the inside where you breathe. These are available thru any auto paint store for around $20. Can't be too safe as polyurethane paint will kill you. Barry NX973BP ps: waterborne not waterbased _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:44 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: NX53WE Bob: Question on the Stewart system of paints. I was under the impression that the Stuart system was water based up to the point where color was added. Then it became full hazmat suit and make up air required. If this impression is wrong I would really like to know about it. Thanks, Tom Stinemetze N328X >>> "Bob edson" 10/4/2011 7:12 AM >>> In answer to what paint we are useing it is the stuart system. It as a little pricey but it is water base with no odor and it is easy to work with. It makes a good tough finish and is very elastic. I am enjoying every minute of it. Have a great day, Bob ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack" <jack(at)textors.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Date: Oct 05, 2011
That sounds like a good option. Has anyone out there tried it over spar varnish? Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 8:00 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Jack: No, now that I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see that you meant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint with latex. That's a good option and the correct choice of Polyfiber product. Since you are going to use latex anyway why not go with the Stewart's sticky stuff instead since it is waterborn and does not use that nasty MEK as a solvent? Stinemetze >>> "Jack" 10/5/2011 3:42 AM >>> Tom, I have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options for consideration. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Jack: I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance used to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a time down in class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting too tacky. Stinemetze >>> "Jack" 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> Shad, I'm close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak) to adhere the fabric. Jack DSM ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: rib wedges and one more question
From: "namrednos" <namrednos(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2011
I am going to make my spars out of 1" x 4-3/4" and then router out to make it lighter. I have heard of the spars being made of 3/4" by 4-3/4" and then no router. The cost for the fir is about the same but I think the 1" spar will be a little stronger. Scott -------- Scott Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354090#354090 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
He means distilled water and you can get it in gallon containers from your local Safeway/Raleys, etc. grocery store. Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: Dan Yocum <yocum137(at)gmail.com>
Subject: slow flying
Hi All, It's been beautiful fall weather around here the past couple of weeks so I've been taking every opportunity to head off into the wild blue yonder with N8031 to try to get my flying fix before the snow starts coming down. The last couple of times I've been up, I've been seeing just how slow I can run the engine and maintain altitude. I've been able to keep her flying at about 50mph at 1325RPM or so. What a nice ride. The wind isn't too bad and it almost makes me want to take out the earplugs. I'm saving gas, decreasing engine wear, and still enjoying the ride as much as if I were "zooming" along at 75mph. My question is this - is such a low RPM bad for the engine? Will it foul the plugs or anything else if I don't run it hotter? Thanks, Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
Subject: Re: slow flying
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23(at)gmail.com>
For the flying you're doing, no. If you are worried about loading up the plugs....you are at full throttle on takeoff, and probably higher throttle settings at some point during your flights, no worries there. Otherwise, as long as she has oil pressure, enjoy! Ryan On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Dan Yocum wrote: > > Hi All, > > It's been beautiful fall weather around here the past couple of weeks so > I've been taking every opportunity to head off into the wild blue yonder > with N8031 to try to get my flying fix before the snow starts coming down. > > The last couple of times I've been up, I've been seeing just how slow I can > run the engine and maintain altitude. I've been able to keep her flying at > about 50mph at 1325RPM or so. What a nice ride. The wind isn't too bad and > it almost makes me want to take out the earplugs. > > I'm saving gas, decreasing engine wear, and still enjoying the ride as much > as if I were "zooming" along at 75mph. > > My question is this - is such a low RPM bad for the engine? Will it foul > the plugs or anything else if I don't run it hotter? > > Thanks, > Dan > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: slow flying
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2011
Dan i don't see any way to damage the engine with a fixed pitch prop you can't lug it. It might oil foul plugs if the rings and valve guides are not in good shape. At that low a power setting there is a lot of vacuum on the cylinder side to suck oil past the clearances. My trusty Luscombe with an A-65 would foul plugs when I played around like that so I would go to full power for a minute or so and that cured the plug fouling. -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354103#354103 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Wilson <jlwilsonnn(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Date: Oct 05, 2011
One of the best things about the Stewart System is that the fabric adhesive can be used over anything. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 5, 2011, at 12:13 PM, "Jack" wrote: > That sounds like a good option. Has anyone out there tried it over spar v arnish? > > Jack > > DSM > > > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 8:00 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System > > > Jack: > > No, now that I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see that y ou meant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint with latex. Th at's a good option and the correct choice of Polyfiber product. Since you a re going to use latex anyway why not go with the Stewart's sticky stuff inst ead since it is waterborn and does not use that nasty MEK as a solvent? > > Stinemetze > > > >>> "Jack" 10/5/2011 3:42 AM >>> > Tom, > > I have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options for consideration. > > Jack > > DSM > > > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System > > > Jack: > > I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance u sed to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a tim e down in class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting to o tacky. > > Stinemetze > > > >>> "Jack" 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> > Shad, > > I=99m close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I beli eve Polytak) to adhere the fabric. > > Jack > > DSM > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: Marvin Haught <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
Subject: Fwd: New member
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: New member Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 12:47:34 -0500 From: Marvin Haught <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> Hello Folks - I'm a new member on the group - invited by the Edson's from Branson, MO. I am a Stewart Systems Distributor, located in Huntsville, AR. I don't plan on using the group to sell product - just answer questions if asked and clarify techniques for covering and painted if needed. I've been a Pietenpol fan most of my life, and one day, before I'm too danged old to fly any more, would love to either buy a project or build. But, like a lot of other habitual builders of stuff, if I could quit work right now, it is doubtful I would live long enough to complete the projects I've got stacked up now! Anyway, my company name is Aircraft Fabric& Finishes, LLC, P.O. Box 419, 1227 Airport Road, Huntsville, AR 72740 - Cell 479-586-4241 in case anyone wants to contact me offline. The company email is aircraftfinishes(at)gmail.com. I will be glad to answer any questions anyone might have, on line or off line. I also do sheet metal work, specializing in compound shapes. As to fabric work, I will contract to come to your place for a 3 day work session to teach the Stewart System to you right on your aircraft parts. Contact me offline for costs. M. Haught aircraftfinishes(at)gmail.com -- H.Marvin Haught Jr. Haught& Associates, Inc Huntsville, AR 72740 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Assuming you are talking about Ecobond, yes I used it over spar varnish. Poly-tak probably would have been a problem. Ben On 10/5/2011 1:13 PM, Jack wrote: > > That sounds like a good option. Has anyone out there tried it over > spar varnish? > > Jack > > DSM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *TOM > STINEMETZE > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 05, 2011 8:00 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System > > **Jack:** > > **No, now that I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see > that you meant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint > with latex. That's a good option and the correct choice of Polyfiber > product. Since you are going to use latex anyway why not go with the > Stewart's sticky stuff instead since it is waterborn and does not use > that nasty MEK as a solvent?** > > **Stinemetze** > > > >>> "Jack" 10/5/2011 3:42 AM >>> > > Tom, > > I have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options > for consideration. > > Jack > > DSM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *TOM > STINEMETZE > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System > > **Jack:** > > **I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying > substance used to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put > about 12" at a time down in class in order to get the fabric to soak > it up prior to getting too tacky.** > > **Stinemetze** > > > >>> "Jack" 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> > > Shad, > > I'm close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe > Polytak) to adhere the fabric. > > Jack > > DSM > > * * > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * > > > * -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: rib wedges and one more question
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Oct 05, 2011
This has been discussed several times in the past. If you search the archives you will easily find references. In any case, the short answer is, yes, the rib design doesn't really allow enough room to fit the full 4 3/4" rear spar. The best approach is to either bevel the top edge of the rear spar to fit the rib, or to reduce the overall height of the rear spar to fit with a square cut on the top - your choice. As an example, if the height of the rear spar was reduced from 4 3/4" down to 4 5/8", the resulting spar would still retain 92 percent of the bending strength of the original spar. The spar with the beveled top edge will retain slightly more strength than the square cut spar, but will be more difficult to cut. The rear spars carry less of the loading than the front spars anyway, so the slight reduction will not be a problem. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354116#354116 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fwd: New member
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Oct 05, 2011
good to know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354117#354117 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Yocum <yocum137(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: slow flying
Date: Oct 05, 2011
Alright! On those days when I've got no particular place to go, 50-55mph is a real nice speed to get there. Thanks! Dan -- Dan Yocum yocum137(at)gmail.com "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." On Oct 5, 2011, at 2:39 PM, "Jerry Dotson" wrote: > > Dan i don't see any way to damage the engine with a fixed pitch prop you can't lug it. It might oil foul plugs if the rings and valve guides are not in good shape. At that low a power setting there is a lot of vacuum on the cylinder side to suck oil past the clearances. My trusty Luscombe with an A-65 would foul plugs when I played around like that so I would go to full power for a minute or so and that cured the plug fouling. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > 59 Daniel Johnson Rd > Baker, FL 32531 > > Started building NX510JD July, 2009 > now covering > 21" wheels > Lycoming O-235 > Jay Anderson CloudCars prop > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354103#354103 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Hi all, I am building my ribs as I speak and I did not put a wedge in while =0Abuilding. After ribs were complete I then put wedges in to to measure 4 an 3/4 =0Afrom the bottom capstrip.=0A=0ARibs are complete and now I mate them to the spars. Gardiner=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : Jack =0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, O ctober 5, 2011 1:13:14 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart Sys tem=0A=0A =0AThat sounds like a good option. Has anyone out there tried i t over spar =0Avarnish?=0AJack=0ADSM=0A =0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-p ietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE=0ASent: Wed nesday, October 05, 2011 8:00 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubje ct: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System=0A =0AJack:=0A =0ANo, now tha t I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see that you =0Ameant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint with latex. That ' s =0Aa good option and the correct choice of Polyfiber product. Since you ar e going =0Ato use latex anyway why not go with the Stewart ' s sticky stuff instead since =0Ait is waterborn and does not use that nasty MEK as a solv ent?=0A =0AStinemetze=0A=0A=0A>>> "Jack" < jack(at)textors.com > 10/5/2011 3:4 2 AM >>>=0ATom,=0AI have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options for =0Aconsideration.=0AJack=0ADSM=0A =0A=0A_________________ _______________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[ma ilto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE =0ASent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.c om=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System=0A =0AJack:=0A =0AI suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance us ed =0Ato glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a time down =0Ain class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to get ting too tacky.=0A =0AStinemetze=0A=0A=0A>>> "Jack" < jack(at)textors.com > 10 /4/2011 12:13 PM >>>=0AShad,=0AI=99m close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak) =0Ato adhere the fabric.=0AJack =0ADSM=0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A ================ =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Date: Oct 05, 2011
9 of your ribs have wedges, Gardiner. Jack Phillips _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Hi all, I am building my ribs as I speak and I did not put a wedge in while building. After ribs were complete I then put wedges in to to measure 4 an 3/4 from the bottom capstrip. Ribs are complete and now I mate them to the spars. Gardiner _____ From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com> Sent: Wed, October 5, 2011 1:13:14 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System That sounds like a good option. Has anyone out there tried it over spar varnish? Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 8:00 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Jack: No, now that I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see that you meant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint with latex. That ' s a good option and the correct choice of Polyfiber product. Since you are going to use latex anyway why not go with the Stewart ' s sticky stuff instead since it is waterborn and does not use that nasty MEK as a solvent? Stinemetze >>> "Jack" < jack(at)textors.com > 10/5/2011 3:42 AM >>> Tom, I have not researched well yet, you could be correct. So many options for consideration. Jack DSM _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System Jack: I suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance used to glue the fabric down. We were only allowed to put about 12" at a time down in class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting too tacky. Stinemetze >>> "Jack" < jack(at)textors.com > 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>> Shad, I'm close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak) to adhere the fabric. Jack DSM http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matro=================== ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2011
From: airlion <airlion(at)bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
They all have wedges now. I think it is easier to fill it in after the fact than =0Ato fill in while gluing the whowe thing=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0AFrom: Jack Phillips <pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net>=0ATo: pietenp ol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, October 5, 2011 8:51:18 PM=0ASubject: RE : Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System=0A=0A =0A9 of your ribs have wedges , Gardiner.=0A =0AJack Phillips=0A =0A =0A=0A______________________________ __=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pi etenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of airlion=0ASent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 7:40 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System=0A =0AHi all, I am building my ribs a s I speak and I did not put a wedge in while =0Abuilding. After ribs were c omplete I then put wedges in to to measure 4 an 3/4 =0Afrom the bottom caps trip.=0ARibs are complete and now I mate them to the spars. Gardiner=0A=0A_ _______________________________=0A =0AFrom:Jack =0ATo: pi etenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, October 5, 2011 1:13:14 PM=0ASubjec t: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart System=0AThat sounds like a good opti on. Has anyone out there tried it over spar =0Avarnish?=0AJack=0ADSM=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-serv er(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On B ehalf Of TOM STINEMETZE=0ASent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 8:00 AM=0ATo: p ietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: TheStewart S ystem=0A =0AJack:=0A =0ANo, now that I read your post with a slightly more alert mind I see that you =0Ameant: Stick the fabric down with Polytak and then paint with latex. That ' s =0Aa good option and the correct choice o f Polyfiber product. Since you are going =0Ato use latex anyway why not go with the Stewart ' s sticky stuff instead since =0Ait is waterborn and doe s not use that nasty MEK as a solvent?=0A =0AStinemetze=0A=0A=0A>>> "Jack" < jack(at)textors.com > 10/5/2011 3:42 AM >>>=0ATom,=0AI have not researched w ell yet, you could be correct. So many options for =0Aconsideration.=0AJac k=0ADSM=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpo l-list-server(at)matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronic s.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE=0ASent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:16 P M=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: The Stewart System=0A =0AJack:=0A =0AI suspect you meant Poly Brush as Polytak is a very fast drying substance used =0Ato glue the fabric down. We were o nly allowed to put about 12" at a time down =0Ain class in order to get the fabric to soak it up prior to getting too tacky.=0A =0AStinemetze=0A=0A=0A >>> "Jack" < jack(at)textors.com > 10/4/2011 12:13 PM >>>=0AShad,=0AI=99 m close to covering and seriously considering Latex with (I believe Polytak ) =0Ato adhere the fabric.=0AJack=0ADSM=0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www. matronics.com/contribution=0A =0Ahttp://www.matro======== =============0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.mat =0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
From: "coxwelljon" <coxwelljon(at)frontiernet.net>
Date: Oct 05, 2011
the ecobond is great, and doesn't stink. Works great with Latex too! I am planning on using 3M Fastbond 30-NF water based contact cement and Latex paint. I have researched this some and find that Fastbond may be the same product as the Ekobond. I cannot guarantee that but I have a friend that used the stewart system and we are going to do some experimentation with some left over Ekobond and Fastbond. Fastbond is considerably cheaper but hard to find in small quantities. I got mine through Granger (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/3M-Contact-Adhesive-3XH48) at about $40 per quart. You can get it for around $50 per gal in 5 gal quantities. It comes in green and neutral just like the Stewart System. I plan to use a high grade of white latex for an undercoat as it has the highest percentage of titanium dioxide which is a refractory and reflects ultra violet. (Titanium dioxide is used to get very bright whites and is used in sun screen for UV protection) and then a color coat over that. My friend was quite happy with the Stewart System but found it is very susceptible to humidity at lower temperatures. He got a blush that actually changed the color and had to redo a wing. He is using a maroon base with cream trim He was doing it in the basement of a solar home which only had wood heat. I think the lower temperature meant a higher relative humidity. I know some epoxy formulations will blush at high humidity. -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354156#354156 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2011
From: johnwoods(at)westnet.com.au
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
Jon Wrote: I am planning on using 3M Fastbond 30-NF water based contact cement and Latex paint. Jon, I was looking at the same product. 3M Fastbond is available in Australia but the Stewart ekobond doesn't appear to be. Looking at the MSDS for both products, the ingredients are the same. See link for Ekobond MSDS: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/70168988/Stewart-Systems-EkoBond-MSDS And attached PDF for Fastbond MSDS. I'm also considering using Latex as final coat. I like the semi-closs finish which I think is in character with the Aircamper. Still a long way to go before covering but I have a lot of time to do research right now as I'm miles away from my project. Have been for the last two years and will be for at least another two months. Sure am looking forward to getting back to building again. JohnW, Perth, Australia ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2011
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: slow flying
Hi Dan, We had a customer ruin the engine in one of our rental Cessna 182 from flying too slow. The rear cylinders were not getting enough cooling air due to higher angle of attack at such low airspeed. Jim B. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 06, 2011
From: Dan Yocum <yocum(at)fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: slow flying
Ah, good point. But, the 182 has a big 6-cyl O-470 engine and mine is only an A-65. Still, that's something to consider, but at lower RPMs less heat is generated, too. On 10/06/2011 10:53 AM, Jim Boyer wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > We had a customer ruin the engine in one of our rental Cessna 182 from > flying too slow. The rear cylinders were not getting enough cooling air > due to higher angle of attack at such low airspeed. > > Jim B. > > * > > > * -- Dan Yocum Fermilab 630.840.6509 yocum@fnal.gov, http://fermigrid.fnal.gov "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: TheStewart System
From: "coxwelljon" <coxwelljon(at)frontiernet.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2011
John Woods wrote: > Jon Wrote: > I am planning on using 3M Fastbond 30-NF water based contact cement and Latex paint. > > Jon, > > I was looking at the same product. > 3M Fastbond is available in Australia but the Stewart ekobond doesn't appear to be. > Looking at the MSDS for both products, the ingredients are the same. > > See link for Ekobond MSDS: > http://www.docstoc.com/docs/70168988/Stewart-Systems-EkoBond-MSDS > > And attached PDF for Fastbond MSDS. > > I'm also considering using Latex as final coat. I like the semi-closs finish which I think is in character with the Aircamper. > > Still a long way to go before covering but I have a lot of time to do research right now as I'm miles away from my project. > Have been for the last two years and will be for at least another two months. > Sure am looking forward to getting back to building again. > > JohnW, > Perth, Australia John W, Thanks for sharing that. They are not identical but oh so close. Jon -------- Jon Coxwell GN-1 Builder Recycle and preserve the planet Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354245#354245 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tig Welding 101
From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles(at)msn.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2011
After three evening classes at the local community college and 9 hours of practice tig welding, this is my best. I asked the instructor if he would climb into my aircraft for a ride if he saw these welds and he assured me he would. He tig welds all day for a living and said he would be happy to to do my welding for me if I wasn't comfortable with it. -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354258#354258 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tig_weld_982.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tig Welding 101
From: "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson(at)centurylink.net>
Date: Oct 07, 2011
I would ride with you. Good looking weld -------- Jerry Dotson 59 Daniel Johnson Rd Baker, FL 32531 Started building NX510JD July, 2009 now covering 21" wheels Lycoming O-235 Jay Anderson CloudCars prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354259#354259 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2011
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Tig Welding 101
TIG welding is great! Good for you to take the time to learn how to do it properly. Looks great. Michael Perez Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tig Welding 101
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2011
To my untrained eye the weld looks really nice. I just wish I had a community college in my town that taught a night course on welding! Very nice. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354263#354263 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tig Welding 101
From: "Kringle" <Mrkringles(at)msn.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2011
I'm also fortunate to only live 20 minutes from the Hobart Institute of Welding which offers world class instruction. However, it is too expensive for a hobbyist like me to attend. -------- John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354266#354266 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Tig Welding 101
From: Dave Nielsen <sentuchows(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2011
Wow, That's better then what I can do. "Bat Cave" Dave -----Original Message----- From: Kringle <Mrkringles(at)msn.com> Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2011 9:20 am Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tig Welding 101 I'm also fortunate to only live 20 minutes from the Hobart Institute of Wel ding hich offers world class instruction. However, it is too expensive for a obbyist like me to attend. -------- ohn


September 18, 2011 - October 07, 2011

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-kt