Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-my
October 02, 2013 - October 14, 2013
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-my
October 02, 2013 - October 14, 2013
white card stock to a least get some idea of what the color is.
>
> Rick Schreiber
> NX478RS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
From: "bradandlinda tds.net" <bradandlinda(at)tds.net>
A thought on tail wheel/rudder spring tension adjustment. The springs
should be adjusted so that wheel response should be matched with
aerodynamic rudder response. For example, if the springs are too tight,
during a crosswind take off the small amount of rudder pressure required to
maintain runway centerline will not be enough to maintain heading with
rudder alone, and the airplane will weather vane into the wind as the tail
lifts off. Worse yet, on landing with correct amount of aerodynamic
rudder, as the wheel touches down, the plane will veer sharply in the
direction of the rudder input, and be very squirrley on the roll-out. Can
you say ground loop? Brad Williams
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Dick N wrote:
>
> Guys
> Don't use the inflatable tail wheel, I did use it and I replaced the inner
> tube every other month. I just ordered a solid tail wheel.
> Dick N.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 11:30 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
>
>
>>
>> Jim;
>>
>> A couple of observations on the solid 6" Scott vs. the pneumatic 8"
>> tailwheel. First, weight. Most Piets tend to be tail-heavy, and according
>> to the Aircraft Spruce shipping weights, there is more than a 2 lb
>> difference between the 2000 and the 3200. That's a lot. Second, aircraft
>> angle in the 3-point attitude. The Piet's FC10 airfoil can still be
>> producing lift with 5.00 or 6.00 mains and a big tailwheel. The original
>> configuration is with a tailskid, which put the tail down lower. The people
>> who are flying with spoked wheels and a tailskid probably have the plane
>> nearer to a full-stall in the 3-point attitude than airplanes like mine,
>> and that gives you the slowest landing speed and the shortest landing roll.
>> Lastly, you should try taxiing a Piet with the 6" solid Scott on grass or
>> pavement. It will turn on a dime. Matter of fact, I have thought of
>> changing the spring tension on the tailwheel on mine to reduce the
>> sensitivity just a bit, although I do like to hav!
>> e the ability to make it go precisely where I want it to go. Now I'll
>> wait to hear from those who may be using the larger tailwheel to see if
>> I've missed an even better deal than I have with the solid 6".
>>
>> --------
>> Oscar Zuniga
>> Medford, OR
>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
>> A75 power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/**viewtopic.php?p=409532#409532>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: ***FIRST FLIGHT ****
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Man Chris, what a GREAT report and accomplishment for both you and your tes
t pilot. That guy did a great job flying and landing it even with the engi
ne misses. Love the sound of the engine and looks of it and the overal pl
ane is downright gorgeous. Way to go fella--nicely done!
Mike C. in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ***FIRST FLIGHT ****
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Thanks Mike,
I have to say your video which was the first thing I bought when I started this
project and it gave me inspiration the whole time. Everytime I would get tired
of the project, I would watch parts of your video and get all fired up again.....so
seeing this project finished is partially because of your plane and video!!
So thanks Man!
[quote="michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov"]Man Chris, what a GREAT report and accomplishment
for both you and your test pilot. That guy did a great job flying and landing
it even with the engine misses. Love the sound of the engine and looks
of it and the overal plane is downright gorgeous. Way to go fella--nicely
done!
Mike C. in Ohio
> [b]
--------
NX321LR
ON THE FINAL PUSH!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409695#409695
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newbie Arkansas builder
From: "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Just noticed I was asked a question in one of the replys of my previous post.
I said I was big in size... well here's my best description. at last years pilot
physical I stood 5 ft 10 in. tall and weighed 230 lbs... it is true I am
sporting a little un-needed weight , might be a good inspiration to loose about
30 during the build. But in reality im not a big guy , just Arkansas stocky.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409696#409696
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: I'm honored!
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Wow Chris, that is truly and honor to hear that my video partially helped y
ou to keep going on your project and FINISH it! I cannot believe how man
y people have told me they've enjoyed that video and it really was develope
d as a one-time, one builder (John Ficklin in Florida) project as John aske
d me help him out. I had no idea the video would go to all parts of Europe
, South Africa, Hawaii, Alaska, and Australia. You cats are crazy! H
ere I was hoping the video tape would help put your wives to sleep early so
you could go back out into the shop or basment and keep working until Jay
Leno came on!
I have to say that getting a ride in and seeing Frank Pavliga's Sky Gypsy b
ack in the 80's changed my whole mindset about what kind of flying and plan
e that I wanted. I thought I wanted a go-fast, closed cockpit. Frank's
ride to me launched me into old-time aviation. I bought an Aeroncan Cham
p with a church buddy Joe Tomasic in 1989 for $3,500 each and learned how t
o fly tailwheel airplanes.
Once Joe and I started flying the Aeronca with the door off I could NOT get
enough of that open air feeling and view. (especially during takeoff and
landing.) Once I had enough tailwheel time Frank was gracious enough to
let me fly his Sky Gypsy and that sealed the deal. The Aeronca was sold wh
en Joe retired and moved to Arizona an the Piet project got underway and I'
ve never looked back.
Fifteeen years later that sturdy, sturdy, and trusty little friend sitting
in the hangar has never disapointed me and has given myself and many others
great joy (and terror!:) over the years and still continues to do so.
The second half of your adventure (like Rick Holland's) has just gotten sta
rted Chris and we're thrilled for you! You've joined a very small group o
f builders who actually made it to the finish line and how you're already o
ff on the starting line of the most aviation fun you'll ever have!
Mike C. in Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Re: Newbie Arkansas builder
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
One other good thing about building an airplane is it can help you with
your motivation to stay on a diet plus maintaining good health in general
if you are worried about keeping your medical.
rh
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 11:40 AM, aviken wrote:
>
> Just noticed I was asked a question in one of the replys of my previous
> post. I said I was big in size... well here's my best description. at
> last years pilot physical I stood 5 ft 10 in. tall and weighed 230 lbs...
> it is true I am sporting a little un-needed weight , might be a good
> inspiration to loose about 30 during the build. But in reality im not a big
> guy , just Arkansas stocky.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409696#409696
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
From: Rick Schreiber <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Poly fiber issues
On 10/1/2013 5:30 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
> Rick; I can empathize with you... I searched high and low for a match for the
yellow on Scout and got pretty close with some, but the Poly-Tone yellow (which,
it turns out, is almost exactly the same yellow as is used on highway centerline
stripes) was always just a little different from what I was finding.
>
> I would go around the retail distributor and cut right to the source... Poly
Fiber in Riverside, CA. I would be greatly surprised if they weren't willing
and able to send you some actual color swatches of the paints that you are interested
in. And in fact, I have a daughter living in Carlsbad and family in Fallbrook,
not too far from Riverside, and if you needed to have someone go by
Poly Fiber to pick up swatches and mail them to you, I'll bet that could be arranged
too.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409619#409619
>
>
Thanks Oscar,
I will get in touch with them and see what I can find out. The yellow I
am looking for is just an organish yellow. I am trying to simulate, or
at least get a little closer to the color of weathered fabric planes
finished with orange shellac. I have a copy of Sport Aviation from 1987
with a picture of Ken Hyde's Grand Champion Jenny. Eventhough this was a
new restoration, it was finished with clear dope, then orange shellac.
The final color is what I would like to get closer to, yet still use a
certified topcoat. I have attached a copy of the Jenny photo.
Rick Schreiber
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
From: Rick Schreiber <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Poly fiber issues
On 10/1/2013 6:35 PM, g. doe wrote:
> Rick, sorry to hear about this, I have several shades of yellow left
> over for different jobs, be glad to send them to you, I am sure the
> labels are still clear, gary in Kennesaw, GA.
>
>
Gary,
Thanks for the response. I just sent out an email to the list trying to
show what color I am looking for. What colors of Poly tone yellow do you
have? Just a dab of the paint on white card stock would be all that is
necessary for me.
Rick Schreiber
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I'm honored!
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Great comments Mike. For me, I also often put on your tape for inspiration......
Believe it or not I am looking fwd to the rainy fall ans winter here in Seattle
- for some wonderful, warm days in the workshop....!
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409704#409704
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David" <david(at)tynerroberts.com>
Subject: Pietenpol RC Model
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Hi all,
As I mentioned previously I am building a 1:4.5 RC scale model of a Piet
before building the 1:1 scale model.
To this effect I am looking for some spruce offcuts. If anyone has a handful
of 1x1s about 4 feet in length they want to sell, please let me know
off-list. These can be the reject pieces you didn't use in your 1:1 Piet.
Thanks in advance, Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: I'm honored!
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Jake;
Now that is one beautiful, graceful fuselage. Nice work.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409714#409714
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Re: Pietenpol RC Model
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Also, Aircraft Spruce sells spruce cuttoffs -
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/bargainbag_spruce.php
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 2:22 PM, David wrote:
> Hi all, ****
>
> ** **
>
> As I mentioned previously I am building a 1:4.5 RC scale model of a Piet
> before building the 1:1 scale model.****
>
> ** **
>
> To this effect I am looking for some spruce offcuts. If anyone has a
> handful of 1x1s about 4 feet in length they want to sell, please let me
> know off-list. These can be the reject pieces you didn=92t use in your 1:
1
> Piet.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks in advance, Dave****
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: first little step
From: "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
finally got started and built one half of my work table. Why is I can figure in
my head how many 2x4's I will need , then find out I need twice as many!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409725#409725
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: ###Second Flight####
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
The second flight went much smoother and incident free....I adjusted the mixture
control to about midway towards lean and wired it in place....did several static
pulls and it sounded really good and smooth. We took off and flew around
the patch for about 15 min problem free and very smooth running.!!! So we are
real close to getting the bugs worked out.
I am looking for advice as far as amount of force needed to keep the nose up. I
think I may have made a mistake by making the center lift struts equal length
with the riblett airfoil hence not giving me enough incidence. Has anyone else
have a nose heavy situation and how did you fix it? Anyone put shims in the
horizontal stabilizer ?
--------
NX321LR
ON THE FINAL PUSH!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409726#409726
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Chris, we? Congratulations on some outstanding work!
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
On Oct 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "Chris Rusch" wrote:
>
> The second flight went much smoother and incident free....I adjusted the mixture
control to about midway towards lean and wired it in place....did several
static pulls and it sounded really good and smooth. We took off and flew around
the patch for about 15 min problem free and very smooth running.!!! So we are
real close to getting the bugs worked out.
> I am looking for advice as far as amount of force needed to keep the nose up.
I think I may have made a mistake by making the center lift struts equal length
with the riblett airfoil hence not giving me enough incidence. Has anyone else
have a nose heavy situation and how did you fix it? Anyone put shims in the
horizontal stabilizer ?
>
> --------
> NX321LR
> ON THE FINAL PUSH!!
> Mitsubishi Powered
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409726#409726
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
"We"meaning me on the ground watching my test pilot having all the fun....it's
a joint effort!
--------
NX321LR
ON THE FINAL PUSH!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409731#409731
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Chris; first of all, you need to change your signature line. It still says "On
The Final Push". Second, the need to hold back stick is unusual in these airplanes...
usually they are tail heavy. Most of the posts that you'll find in
the archives talk about *adding* incidence to the horizontal stabilizer, not *decreasing*
incidence. You're breaking new ground here with the Riblett airfoil
and equal-length cabanes.
Ideally, of course, you would increase the wing incidence by lengthening the front
cabanes a smidgen. However, that would probably be a major effort and would
probably also involve the lift struts, unless you have threaded fork ends on
them that would permit you to lengthen the front struts to accommodate more
wing incidence. You could probably play with the horizontal tail, but I don't
think it will be too easy at this point either. You could add more nose-up biasing
trim on the elevator, but that will increase drag and won't address the
real issue, which sounds like not enough wing incidence. I'll have to go back
to look at P.F. Beck's testing of the Riblett to see what he says about how
they set it.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409738#409738
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Center lift struts? You mean the cabanes?
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Chris Rusch wrote:
> rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
>
> The second flight went much smoother and incident free....I adjusted the
> mixture control to about midway towards lean and wired it in place....did
> several static pulls and it sounded really good and smooth. We took off and
> flew around the patch for about 15 min problem free and very smooth
> running.!!! So we are real close to getting the bugs worked out.
> I am looking for advice as far as amount of force needed to keep the nose
> up. I think I may have made a mistake by making the center lift struts
> equal length with the riblett airfoil hence not giving me enough incidence.
> Has anyone else have a nose heavy situation and how did you fix it? Anyone
> put shims in the horizontal stabilizer ?
>
> --------
> NX321LR
> ON THE FINAL PUSH!!
> Mitsubishi Powered
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409726#409726
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 02, 2013
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Chris
Where in the range is your CG for these test flights?
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 8:41 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
> Chris; first of all, you need to change your signature line. It still
> says "On The Final Push". Second, the need to hold back stick is unusual
> in these airplanes... usually they are tail heavy. Most of the posts that
> you'll find in the archives talk about *adding* incidence to the horizontal
> stabilizer, not *decreasing* incidence. You're breaking new ground here
> with the Riblett airfoil and equal-length cabanes.
>
> Ideally, of course, you would increase the wing incidence by lengthening
> the front cabanes a smidgen. However, that would probably be a major
> effort and would probably also involve the lift struts, unless you have
> threaded fork ends on them that would permit you to lengthen the front
> struts to accommodate more wing incidence. You could probably play with
> the horizontal tail, but I don't think it will be too easy at this point
> either. You could add more nose-up biasing trim on the elevator, but that
> will increase drag and won't address the real issue, which sounds like not
> enough wing incidence. I'll have to go back to look at P.F. Beck's testing
> of the Riblett to see what he says about how they set it.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409738#409738
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
FYI The CG is at 15.6 from leading edge for these flights
--------
NX321LR
Now test flying!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409755#409755
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Chris,
First off, Congats on the second flight. Secondly, It sounds like you are describing
a nose heavy airplane. I looked again at the video's you posted. The
plane looks to be flying in a level attitude. It also looks like your wing is
moved back a little. I would perform another W&B to determine exactly where
it is with the pilot who is currently flying it. Then recalculate the W&B with
you as pilot. The man fling it right now doesn't look to be very big. A twenty
pound heavier pilot would probably correct the problem you are describing.
Try putting rocks in the pilots pockets without him looking and see if he comes
back and tells you that the plane is fine now.
Happy Landings,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409756#409756
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Here is a video from last night.....pretty uneventful which is good!!
http://youtu.be/WpnyU_sC85A
--------
NX321LR
Now test flying!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409765#409765
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ***FIRST FLIGHT ****
From: "scudrun" <jstreet(at)uwaterloo.ca>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Congratulations Chris. Looks and sounds great. The sputtering just adds a 'period
realism' hahaha Seriously though I'm glad it was nothing more than that.
It is nerve wracking flying something that doesn't have a bunch of hours behind
it to give you some reassurance. I just completed my first couple of hours
after a total engine rebuild, and watching your video gave me the willies for
a second time.
Many happy hours of flying to you.
Joe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409767#409767
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Chris:
How was the air speed ? When I add power the stick pressure changes, I tried equal
lengths on cabanes and ended up to be universal , attached a bungee from the
seat to the stick with a slide and lock. problem solved. She still flies well
at 78 MPH. Or 68 MPH.
Congratulations
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409783#409783
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Airspeed was 70ish mph
--------
NX321LR
Now test flying!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409784#409784
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Hi Dick,
I read you post about spring tension with great interest....
Still being a newbie with my Piet ... I find that I am the situation you describe
in your post. Doing calm wind full power takeoffs on pavement, - the Piet
tracks true. But the moment the tail starts flying - the Piet wants to veer
right -- takes a lot of left rudder to get it back on track. I associate that
with P-Factor generated by my O-200. Does this sound right?
Wheel landings on calm wind days seem to be the same process in reverse. I wheel
in at 60 with 1200 rpm. Once the wheels are planted - i slowly back off on
the power and allow the tail to just come down on its on. However - the moment
the tail wheel touches - its the rudder dance.
I stressed 'calm wind days' as I am not ready for cross winds in the Piet just
yet.
Looking at my tail wheel (see attached) I don't have a castering tail wheel - so
I am not sure that spring tension is my problem?
Are your comments based on the spring tension with a castering tail wheel?
I read up on tail wheel castering on a few other forums ... seems there are a
number of pilots that take the springs/cables off and free-wheel using brakes
to steer.
Anybody free wheeling with their Piet's?
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409797#409797
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_tail_wheel_3619_627.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
Date: Oct 03, 2013
Jim
Yes that sounds pretty true, the one thing to check is are your rudder and
tail wheel aligned when the plane is sitting on the ground. The other thing
to check is the wing trim, bring the tail up to level and you take a
digital level and measure the angle at the cabane struts on both sides then
check at the wing tips make sure that the readings are .5 degrees less than
at the base.
Next question, yes I have a castoring tail wheel it is a spring type, I
think the springs are very important.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 8:48 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
>
> Hi Dick,
>
> I read you post about spring tension with great interest....
>
> Still being a newbie with my Piet ... I find that I am the situation you
> describe in your post. Doing calm wind full power takeoffs on
> avement, - the Piet tracks true. But the moment the tail starts flying -
> the Piet wants to veer right -- takes a lot of left rudder to get it back
> on track. I associate that with P-Factor generated by my O-200. Does this
> sound right?
>
> Wheel landings on calm wind days seem to be the same process in reverse.
> I wheel in at 60 with 1200 rpm. Once the wheels are planted - i slowly
> back off on the power and allow the tail to just come down on its on.
> However - the moment the tail wheel touches - its the rudder dance.
>
> I stressed 'calm wind days' as I am not ready for cross winds in the Piet
> just yet.
>
> Looking at my tail wheel (see attached) I don't have a castering tail
> wheel - so I am not sure that spring tension is my problem?
>
> Are your comments based on the spring tension with a castering tail wheel?
>
> I read up on tail wheel castering on a few other forums ... seems there
> are a number of pilots that take the springs/cables off and free-wheel
> using brakes to steer.
>
> Anybody free wheeling with their Piet's?
>
> --------
> Jim McWhorter
> N687MB (New Owner)
> Culpeper, VA KCJR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409797#409797
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_tail_wheel_3619_627.jpg
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Subject: Re: bungees
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Have you checked your wheels for toe out? Had a Cessna 150 that was
slightly tow in after a tire change. Push it back into the hangar and it
squatted, pull it out and it stood up tall. I think my project may be very
slightly toe in. seems to do the same thing.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 7:48 PM, GNflyer wrote:
>
> well I made another fun flight in my GN-1 this afternoon about 45 minutes
> before dark. followed by the smoothest landing I have even made in it.
> (could be partly due to a very weak bungee on the right side. by the time I
> turned at the hangar and shut down the leg was splayed out pretty bad. I
> had thought I would go to coil springs on them but as the time to fly just
> has not been that much and I feel pretty comfortable with the Cub gear as
> it is. I just need to find the lowest price but timely delivery source and
> get some in and change them.having never done it I am not at all sure what
> I need.I seem to remember 1080? as a strength rating but that may have been
> on my old Tri-pacer I used to have.any good recommendations? I looked up
> Chief aircraft and have ordered from them in the past but figured this
> would be a good place to ask first. thanks. Raymond
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409519#409519
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Jim,
What you are describing regarding take offs and landings is exactly how it should
feel. The airplane is doing what it is supposed to do. There is nothing to
fix. I hate to see you spend a bunch of time trying to fix something that is
not broken. That said, get someone who is familiar with flying piets or cubs
to to verify that the airplane is fine. If there is something truly wrong then
he should be able to head you in the proper direction. The airspeeds you
are giving are fast also. I suspect that either the indicator is not reading
correctly or you are just landing it too fast. Have you gone out and done any
slow flight work or stalls with the plane. See what airspeed it indicates when
it stalls power off. If you are uncomfortable with doing that, I again say
have someone else fly it for input.
That airplane has been flying for many years. it is hard for me to believe that
it as poor handling qualities. I am not trying to sound a rough on you, but
I don't want to see you spend time fixing something that is not broken. Worse
yet, have you change something while experimenting and hurt yourself or the plane.
Very respectfully,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409826#409826
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: bungees
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Chief aircraft is where I get my bungee's from. Is there anything in your logbook
that indicates a part number for you? There are a lot of different sizes
to choose from. Mine seem to last 3 to 4 years. Then they start sagging. Good
luck find the proper ones.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409828#409828
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: bungees
From: "GNflyer" <rayeh48(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
there definitely is a little. I tried to correct it while I was finishing up assembling
the gear on the fuse early on. did get it better but it does have some.
I have always figured a little toe out is preferable to toe In on a conventional
gear. but the bungees are definitely failing. after removing the strut t
was very evident that the outer one had several places tat are shrunken in a
lot under the wrapping have new ones coming now from A/S and hope in the next
couple days to get a tool rigged up to install them. D.J. had them put on several
years ago and they sat in the Arizona heat quite a while before I bought the
project and I have had it at least 6 or 7 years or more. it is amazing how
time passes.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409829#409829
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: bungees
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Sounds like you are on the right track. You are correct about the toe out. The
wheels should either be straight or a little toed out. If toed in the plane
will ground loop very easily. Not a good thing. Let us know how it goes.
Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409830#409830
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Subject: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Going without tailwheel control cables is not unheard of, I believe the new
SuperStol is designed that way, ground steering only with rudder and brakes
- http://justaircraft.com/page.php?45. Have no idea how a Piet behaves
without the cables.
rh
On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 7:48 PM, Fun2av8 wrote:
>
> Hi Dick,
>
> I read you post about spring tension with great interest....
>
> Still being a newbie with my Piet ... I find that I am the situation you
> describe in your post. Doing calm wind full power takeoffs on pavement, -
> the Piet tracks true. But the moment the tail starts flying - the Piet
> wants to veer right -- takes a lot of left rudder to get it back on track.
> I associate that with P-Factor generated by my O-200. Does this sound
> right?
>
> Wheel landings on calm wind days seem to be the same process in reverse.
> I wheel in at 60 with 1200 rpm. Once the wheels are planted - i slowly
> back off on the power and allow the tail to just come down on its on.
> However - the moment the tail wheel touches - its the rudder dance.
>
> I stressed 'calm wind days' as I am not ready for cross winds in the Piet
> just yet.
>
> Looking at my tail wheel (see attached) I don't have a castering tail
> wheel - so I am not sure that spring tension is my problem?
>
> Are your comments based on the spring tension with a castering tail wheel?
>
> I read up on tail wheel castering on a few other forums ... seems there
> are a number of pilots that take the springs/cables off and free-wheel
> using brakes to steer.
>
> Anybody free wheeling with their Piet's?
>
> --------
> Jim McWhorter
> N687MB (New Owner)
> Culpeper, VA KCJR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409797#409797
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_tail_wheel_3619_627.jpg
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol RC Model
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Since you are building an RC version of your Piet - I thought you might get a kick
out of my RC Piet. The RC Piet is from Stevens Aero and was built by Paul
Stamison. Mr. Jin Woo provided the decals. The front and rear cockpit instruments
in the model match the ones in my Piet
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409841#409841
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rc_mr_sam_with_n687mb_3661_258.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rc_mr_sam_with_n687mb_3663_417.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rc_mr_sam_with_n687mb_3661_418.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rc_mr_sam_with_n687mb_3661_186.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rc_mr_sam_with_n687mb_3658_198.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Chris;
With the standard CG envelope being 15"-20" aft of wing leading edge, flying it
with the CG at 15.6" aft is definitely going to be nose heavy. My airplane has
a 16 gallon fuel tank in the nose and when I'm flying solo with full fuel,
I have to hold some back stick too. Where is the fuel tank in Two One Lima Romeo?
If it's in the nose and you're doing test flights with full fuel, you might
try draining off half the tank and flying it again. And unless it is requiring
considerable back stick to hold it straight & level, or you have a wing
centersection fuel tank, it doesn't sound like you have any big adjustments to
make.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409846#409846
________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Ackerman <afuturepilotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Subject: Higher Useful Load
Hey everyone!
I've been a lurker on this mailing list for a long time, but haven't really
said much. I'm considering building a Pietenpol and the only thing holding
me back at this point is the useful load. It seems the average useful load
is about 450 lbs. I'd REALLY like to get 500-550 useful. I'll be using an
O-200 to power mine. Has anyone designed a slightly larger wing or
some-such to allow for a higher useful load?
Thanks!
John
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
John;
It's not just a matter of getting enough lift and thrust to get the airplane to
fly at a higher gross weight. The design loading for the wing spars, wing attach
fittings and bolts, lift struts, strut attachment fittings and bolts, landing
gear, and other things are affected by an increase in weight. If you think
about it, the Normal Category load limit is +3.8G so if you increase the gross
weight by 100 lbs, the stresses have to be analyzed for 3.8 times that (actually,
1.9 times that for each wing since there are 2 wings). Not that it can't
be done, but you've got to look at the whole picture and not just adding more
wing area or engine thrust to get the additional weight off the ground.
This topic has come up fairly often, given that most people today are a little
larger in weight and stature than Mr. Pietenpol was. In my case it's not a factor
since I'm 5'-9" and weigh about 152 in summer clothes, but I think I'm the
exception. In fact, my airplane (empty weight 633) is right at gross with full
fuel and two FAA-standard people aboard (175 lbs apiece). I haven't heard
a lot of excitement on this list about structurally and aerodynamically analyzing
the Air Camper and re-engineering it for a higher gross weight. It is what
it is.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409853#409853
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
> Not that it can't be done, but you've got to look at the whole picture and not
just adding more wing area or engine thrust to get the additional weight off
the ground.
Your correct here and very good advise. Unfortunately people do what you are saying
without any total engineering being looked at. Lots of Piet's flying around
that way with increased loads on the total airframe lowering the safety factor,
without know what it is. I would assume some are under the 3.8G's limits
..... and the limits are there for a reason.
Build a Piet as a Piet. If you what it to do something different, look for an other
design.
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409859#409859
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "A Future Pilot" <afuturepilotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
OK, so redesigning it is out...but is the published useful load accurate for an
O-200? About what useful load can I expect, since I'm assuming I'll have more
than what I'd have with a Model A. Doing some searching through this list, I've
seen people talk about 1250 or so gross with an O-200. Is that realistic?
Thanks!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409864#409864
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
John,
I think that you are looking at this backwards. You seem to be asking, "If I add
an O-200, how much more can I add?" I think the better question is, "My aircraft
can be comfortably be registered and operated with a gross weight of X. What
are the best practices that I can use to build light as safely possible in
order to leave me as much useful load as possible."
The design weight is set for all the reasons previously discussed. So instead of
asking how much you can add, figure out what your empty weight will be, then
your useful load is left.
It seems to me that often people like the Pietenpol, but want to change it to do
or be X, Y, or Z on their desires list. There are many great designs out there,
and if the Piet cannot quite give you what you want, then keep looking. You
will be much happier in the end.
My $.02
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409869#409869
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: Steve Emo <steve.emo58(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
58tl has an O200 and has a gross weight of 1320. Yes it does get off the ground,
and yes carrying a little more speed on approach feels fine.
Steve
> On Oct 4, 2013, at 3:45 PM, "A Future Pilot" wrote:
>
>
> OK, so redesigning it is out...but is the published useful load accurate for
an O-200? About what useful load can I expect, since I'm assuming I'll have more
than what I'd have with a Model A. Doing some searching through this list,
I've seen people talk about 1250 or so gross with an O-200. Is that realistic?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409864#409864
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Weston <smikewest(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
Date: Oct 04, 2013
hi guys & gals, i looked at the video and i noticed that the elevator did not have
the usual 3 to 4 degree droop typical of piets in flight, in fact it was pointed
up 2 or 3 degrees. so going back and looking at my notes it shows that
the riblet airfoil calls for a 1" longer cabane in front. however, the riblet
has the same 2 degree angle of incidence in relation to the top longeron as the
standard piet airfoil.on account of the fact that the riblet front spar is 1
inch lower than the rear in relation to the chord line. so, chris' piet has 1
degree less than called for in the plans. ergo, all things being more or less
equal from the standpoint of the air blowing over the plane the horizontal stabilizer
is one degree off in relation to the wing. the riblet airfoil has almost
the same pitching moment as the piet airfoil so it should trim up the same.anyway
thats my 5 cents.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "A Future Pilot" <afuturepilotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
Thanks everyone!
I think my initial question wasn't really what I meant to be asking. The way I
should have worded it is "What is the highest gross weight that the pietenpol
can safely operate with when using an O-200 engine. Also, are there any wing or
other section redesigns that would be beneficial."
So, with that in mind, would y'all say that an empty weight of around 750 (or hopefully
less) is reasonable, and a gross weight of about 1250 is safe with an
O-200? I plan on building as light as possible (including using a steel tube
fuselage), but other than just building light, there aren't any modifications
to the original design that are recommended? (I have looked at Keri-Anne's modifications.
I think I may go with the no-gap ailerons and steerable tail wheel.
Have any of you had experience with those?)
Thanks again everyone!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409874#409874
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
John,
Leave off the "with an O-200" and your question is more accurate, in my opinion.
The question should be "what is the max gross weight allowed, and what is a
reasonable empty weight." period.
Whether or not it is an O-200, a Rotec, am A-65, a Model T or any other engine
is more a factor in Weight and Balance computations. Too heavy an engine and is
placement is going to affect the CG and thus the flyability of your final product
even if your airplane is within a weight range.
$.02 more.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409875#409875
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
John,
Leave off the "with an O-200" and your question is more accurate, in my opinion.
The question should be "what is the max gross weight allowed, and what is a
reasonable empty weight." period.
Whether or not it is an O-200, a Rotec, am A-65, a Model T or any other engine
is more a factor in Weight and Balance computations. Too heavy an engine and is
placement is going to affect the CG and thus the flyability of your final product
even if your airplane is within a weight range.
$.02 more.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409876#409876
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
If by "no-gap ailerons" you mean installing the ailerons using full-span piano
hinges, my guess is that the majority of Piets that are being constructed today
are using that method and a good number of flying Piets have them as well.
My airplane has them. I think everyone agrees that they improve control responsiveness.
Same for your question about steerable tailwheels. I think I can safely say that
tail skids are in the minority and fixed or free-castoring tailwheels are too.
Having the tailwheel steerable improves ground handling but it does add an
extra set of cables and control horns to the tail of the airplane. Cutting
into your useful load ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409883#409883
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Scott or Maule tail Wheel
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 04, 2013
I checkef the tail wheel alignment against the rudder and found that the tail wheel
is around 3 degrees off center. Looking at how far it is off explained
those nasty little side trips that the Pete wants to take when the tail wheel
touches down. I need to put turnbuckles on the cables that attach to the tail
wheel so I can center the tail wheel.
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409888#409888
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Let's assume that your plane is strong and won't break, So structural
matters aside:
Increased weight decreases the speed (not angle) at which your aircraft
stalls. The stall speed increases incrementally once a certain weight is
passed.
Add to increased weight, an aft CG and the increase in stall speed in a
bank, and you can have a stall speed that is close to the speed you turn
base!
On the extreme end of this is envelope, a very overloaded aircraft cruses
just a few knots above the stall speed. Altitude also affects this. Thus
the U2 flight envelope at altitude was cruse and top speed were within 2-4
knots of stall speed.
Y'all be careful out there.
Steve D
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 12:26 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
> John;
>
> It's not just a matter of getting enough lift and thrust to get the
> airplane to fly at a higher gross weight. The design loading for the wing
> spars, wing attach fittings and bolts, lift struts, strut attachment
> fittings and bolts, landing gear, and other things are affected by an
> increase in weight. If you think about it, the Normal Category load limit
> is +3.8G so if you increase the gross weight by 100 lbs, the stresses have
> to be analyzed for 3.8 times that (actually, 1.9 times that for each wing
> since there are 2 wings). Not that it can't be done, but you've got to
> look at the whole picture and not just adding more wing area or engine
> thrust to get the additional weight off the ground.
>
> This topic has come up fairly often, given that most people today are a
> little larger in weight and stature than Mr. Pietenpol was. In my case
> it's not a factor since I'm 5'-9" and weigh about 152 in summer clothes,
> but I think I'm the exception. In fact, my airplane (empty weight 633) is
> right at gross with full fuel and two FAA-standard people aboard (175 lbs
> apiece). I haven't heard a lot of excitement on this list about
> structurally and aerodynamically analyzing the Air Camper and
> re-engineering it for a higher gross weight. It is what it is.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409853#409853
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
As a builder you are the person who states the gross weight. I would not
list over 1320 pounds to stay in the Light sport category. But your
official gross weight decision is your decision.
The experienced and long considered conventional wisdom of the Pietenpol
community is that somewhere around 1230-1280 pounds is the limit. I have
not done the math to a flaw but I think my useful load is around 550
pounds. Minus fuel will allow me to carry fuel and two of pax and stuff. If
I fill the main tank I am OK but when I fill the wing tank as well, I have
to get skinnier passengers.
The easiest way for me to be able to carry a passenger is to lose weight. I
plan on losing about 16 more pounds to get to 180. That will allow more
forward CG and for larger passengers.
Blue Skies,
Steve D.
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 11:05 AM, John Ackerman wrote:
> Hey everyone!
>
> I've been a lurker on this mailing list for a long time, but haven't
> really said much. I'm considering building a Pietenpol and the only thing
> holding me back at this point is the useful load. It seems the average
> useful load is about 450 lbs. I'd REALLY like to get 500-550 useful. I'll
> be using an O-200 to power mine. Has anyone designed a slightly larger wing
> or some-such to allow for a higher useful load?
>
> Thanks!
> John
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "A Future Pilot" <afuturepilotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2013
@nightmare I meant climb performance and stall speed, not maximum structural limitations.
I realized that that's probably where the confusion was coming from.
So it sounds like 1250 gross is safe, and if I build to 750 or lighter, that'll
give me a solid 500 pounds useful load, which should be plenty!
Thank you all for your help! Now I just gotta save up some money to buy the plans
:)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409926#409926
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine Selection
From: "A Future Pilot" <afuturepilotis(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 05, 2013
Just today I heard of someone with an O-320 on theirs here in KY. I was told he
had done a lot of modifications to it to allow for that. I'm not sure if he's
on this mailing list, or if any of you have heard anything about it.
But generally a Corvair or O-200 is about as big as makes sense for a Pietenpol.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409930#409930
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: bungees
From: "GNflyer" <rayeh48(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Got my cords in from A/S in 3 days from the day I called ill they were in the mailbox.
sure can't complain there. used a modified version of the EAA video where
they used an engine hoist ad rope to stretch them.except I have a tall hi-lift
farm jack. clamped the base to my work bench and tacked a lug to the table
right in front of it's base and pinned the bottom end to it with a 3/8 bolt
and ran a rope to the bungee and jacked it up till either the rope would break
or I could pry he cord over the lugs. load tested some old ropes that way till
I got them all on. after clamping the top end of the strut in my vise it didn't
take too long to pull the rope back out from between the logs and cord.actually
went fairly well and no blood spilled. nice change from many of my projects.now
to finish replacing the leaking oil pan and change out oil coolers and
see what progress I have made.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409939#409939
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Weight & Balance Data
==============
Does anyone have a CG Envelope diagram for a Piet?
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409943#409943
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/sample_wandb_graph_107.png
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Aux Fuel Tank
========
Is anyone using an portable auxiliary fuel tank? I fly with a bunch of cubs to
go get a $100 hamburger. The Cubs I fly with carry more than 13 gals of fuel
and as far as I can tell - burn less per hour than I do.
I get a little nervous when the gas gauge gets down to 1/4 tank. I think a simple
answer might be a portable aux tank in the front seat that would hold an additional
7-10 gallons .
My IA says the installation would be a simple gravity feed as long as the Aux tank
was higher than the carburetor.
Anyone done this?
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409944#409944
________________________________________________________________________________
From: =?utf-8?B?dG1icmFudEBtc24uY29t?= <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: =?utf-8?B?Q2VudGVyIHNlY3Rpb24gaGFsZiBtb29u?
Date: Oct 06, 2013
V29uZGVyaW5nIGlmIGFueW9uZSBoYXMgYW55IHBob3RvcyBvZiB0aGUgYnVpbGQgdXAgb2YgdGhl
IGNlbnRlciBzZWN0aW9uIGN1dG91dCAoaGFsZiBtb29uKS4gIEknbSBhYm91dCB0byBkbyB0aGlz
IGJ1dCBoYXZpbmcgdHJvdWJsZSB2aXN1YWxpemluZyB0aGUgcHJvY2Vzcy4KClRoYW5rcywKClRv
bSBCLgoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgUGhvbmU
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris" <catdesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Center section half moon
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Several of Mike Cuy's
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mike_cuy.htm
Several of Gary Boothe's
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Gary%20Boothe/wing.htm
Jack Textor too
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Jack%20Textor/wing.htm
Rick Holland as well
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Rick%20Holland/pictures.htm
There are more but I don't have time to search for them
Chris
Sacramento, Ca
Westcoastpiet.com
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
tmbrant(at)msn.com
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 11:34 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center section half moon
Wondering if anyone has any photos of the build up of the center section
cutout (half moon). I'm about to do this but having trouble visualizing
the process.
Thanks,
Tom B.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
=EF=BD~=EF=BD=03
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Higher Useful Load
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Future Pilot,
The best way to increase your useful load is to build lighter. If you constantly
think about how to build it lighter throughout the build, you'll be able to
lift whoever you put in there. Mine came in at 626lbs. It could have been lighter
and I know where my extra weight is but there's nothing I can do about
it now. I have an A-65 and have probably flown with a passenger on 500-600 flights.
I' ve never felt concerned on climbout. I've had passengers up to about
260lbs. Don't know that a much larger person could be shoehorned in the front.
What I have noticed is with a larger passenger the bottom seems to drop
out a little quicker on landing. It doesn't seem to really like the higher weights.
That's why the best way to increase useful load is to build light and
not focus so much on higher horsepower. Larger engines seem to add more weight
than just the engine itself. Larger fuel tank, maybe another fuel tank, starter,
generator, adding more stuff because you think it's okay since you have a
larger engine, etc. Just try to build a Piet for what it is, a beautifully light,
simple, and graceful early 1930's design. You will not be disappointed!
Absolutely love mine!!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409961#409961
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Progress on SkyScout...
From: Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Date: Oct 06, 2013
> From: Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
> Date: October 6, 2013 at 1:14:37
> Gary,
>
> Here are a few photos of the fuselage and mount jig. It's on the gears, th
e tank is in place and the firewalls are ready. Notice the mechanical toe br
akes! Just like the big boys, don't know how they will work? The tail wheel i
s a copy of the Sonex setup. Uses 1/2" titanium rod. Pretty light. I may ha
ve to re-make the wheel castor to raise the tail a few more inches. All cont
rol cables have been run and seem to work correctly. Gear springs may have t
o be reduced in length, depending on what happens when the motor and the res
t of the garbage is added.
>
> When I finish the motor mount, I will have to work on the panel. No electr
ic wiring required! I will work on the A-65 this winter.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray
Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
Date: Oct 06, 2013
Hi Tom
Do you want to see mine, its at my hangar.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: tmbrant(at)msn.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 1:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center section half moon
Wondering if anyone has any photos of the build up of the center
section cutout (half moon). I'm about to do this but having trouble
visualizing the process.
Thanks,
Tom B.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
=EF=BD~=EF=BD=03
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Doing a moon cutout reduces wing area, hence why Bernie used the center flap.
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409982#409982
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
Date: Oct 07, 2013
But it does increase visibility, particularly during tight turns...
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of womenfly2
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 7:12 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center section half moon
Doing a moon cutout reduces wing area, hence why Bernie used the center
flap.
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409982#409982
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Progress on SkyScout...
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Wow Ray! That is so cool. I love it. I've been wondering how your projec
t is going. It looks really great.
Mike Groah
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 6, 2013, at 7:45 PM, Ray Krause wrote:
>
>
>
>> From: Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
>> Date: October 6, 2013 at 1:14:37
>
>> Gary,
>>
>> Here are a few photos of the fuselage and mount jig. It's on the gears, t
he tank is in place and the firewalls are ready. Notice the mechanical toe b
rakes! Just like the big boys, don't know how they will work? The tail wheel
is a copy of the Sonex setup. Uses 1/2" titanium rod. Pretty light. I may h
ave to re-make the wheel castor to raise the tail a few more inches. All con
trol cables have been run and seem to work correctly. Gear springs may have t
o be reduced in length, depending on what happens when the motor and the res
t of the garbage is added.
>>
>> When I finish the motor mount, I will have to work on the panel. No elect
ric wiring required! I will work on the A-65 this winter.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ray
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
Tom...and anyone else whom may be interested...I just updated my website an
d have an all new, more user friendly photo gallery with added pictures. In
there, you can go to the CENTER SECTION album and look at how I made my C.
S. cut out.- The filler material for the cut out, the blocks that you wil
l see,-is balsa wood . These were-thinner pieces laminated together and
then cut to fit.- The rest of the cutout is made with spruce and plywood
.=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol
HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Aero=0Awww.karetakeraero.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Jim; I have thought about creating that W&B envelope diagram for my airplane.
You must realize, though, that unlike certified aircraft which are all alike,
experimentals are all different and one envelope diagram will not serve for all.
On the matter of aux tanks, you might consider a temporary setup rather than a
fixed aux tank and piping, which would permanently add to your empty weight.
There are many different configurations of blow-molded plastic fuel tanks for
boats (for example), and you could secure one in the front cockpit for longer
flights or extra margin. The rubber tubing with a squeeze bulb could be used
to hand-transfer fuel from the aux tank up to the main tank. Most of those molded
fuel tanks for boats hold enough to add about an hour of flight time. Just
a thought.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409997#409997
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: ###Second Flight####
From: "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
The Fuel Tank is in the wing and no aux tank at all.
I am going to shim the horizontal stab up in the rear 1/4" and see how tha affects
the flying characteristics.
Thanks for all of the suggestions!
taildrags wrote:
> Chris;
>
> With the standard CG envelope being 15"-20" aft of wing leading edge, flying
it with the CG at 15.6" aft is definitely going to be nose heavy. My airplane
has a 16 gallon fuel tank in the nose and when I'm flying solo with full fuel,
I have to hold some back stick too. Where is the fuel tank in Two One Lima
Romeo? If it's in the nose and you're doing test flights with full fuel, you
might try draining off half the tank and flying it again. And unless it is requiring
considerable back stick to hold it straight & level, or you have a wing
centersection fuel tank, it doesn't sound like you have any big adjustments
to make.
--------
NX321LR
Now test flying!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409998#409998
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Note that mine is a hybrid flop, a flop with a cutout, best (or worst) of
both worlds.
rh
On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Chris wrote:
> **
>
> Several of Mike Cuy's
>
> http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mike_cuy.htm
>
> Several of Gary Boothe's
>
> http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Gary%20Boothe/wing.htm
>
> Jack Textor too
>
> ***http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Jack%20Textor/wing.htm*
>
> Rick Holland as well
>
> http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Rick%20Holland/pictures.htm
>
>
> There are more but I don't have time to search for them
>
> Chris
> Sacramento, Ca
> Westcoastpiet.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *tmbrant(at)msn.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 06, 2013 11:34 AM
> *To:* pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Center section half moon
>
> Wondering if anyone has any photos of the build up of the center section
> cutout (half moon). I'm about to do this but having trouble visualizing
> the process.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom B.
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
>
> =EF=BD~=EF=BD
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skipgadd(at)earthlink.net" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Felix For Sale
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Hi all,
It is time to sell my GN1/Piet. I have had the privilege of owning and flying Felix
the GN1 since 2006 and over 200 hours. The highlight of course was 2009 when
we flew to Brodhead and OSH and back to WV, 2 up. I am getting closer to completion
of my Piet (started in 1990) and need the space as I am only a step
or 2 away from attaching the wings for rigging.
I love flying the Grega, much more than the Chief, and hate to see it go, but it
is time.
It has an A65, aircraft time and SMHO is 485 or so as I fly when I can. It was
certified 1998, completed by Felix Quast(Dick N's distant cousin) The project
was started back in the 60's or 70's, not by Felix. Felix has the Piet type wing
not a Cub wing. It flys just like a Piet. Cruz is 68mph, stall something under
40mph. It has a standard Cub cowl tank and a 4gal wing tank, which I use only
for cross country flying. It has a tow hook type release used to hand prop,
than release from cockpit, PF Beck gave me. It has been real handy to have close
by when I am trying to figure out something on my project and I have used
several ideas from Felix on my Piet. After flying it for a couple years I decided
I agree with Jack P, that the cut out center section is a good thing for
viability and worth the small loss of lift.
Will go back up on Barnstormers shortly, $12,000.
Email or call with questions.
H 304 275-3787
C 304 483-8342
Skip
skipgadd(at)earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: How straight is straight?
From: "pringljo" <joseph.pringle(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
I recently bought some rough cut spruce to build my spars out of. I ran them through
my table saw to try and get a good straight edge on them, and I don't think
my results are adequate.
If I lay all the planks on top of each other, and look down the long edge, I find
that they are not perfectly aligned. there are variations of up to 1/8 (maybe
slightly less) inch from one edge to the other. It could be that each board
is off by a 1/16th, or some variation/combination of that. In other words,
the edge is slightly wavy. It's imperceptible to the naked eye if you just look
at each board individually. This is on a board that is 16 feet long.
My question is whether I need to find some larger professional woodworking facility
to help me fix these boards, or if this is acceptable variation?
--------
Joe Pringle
Atlanta, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410001#410001
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Felix For Sale
Hi Skip,
I love seeing that white scarf of yours trailing behind. I remember seeing
a picture of it streaming out behind when you were parked; did you have a w
ire in it?
Cheers,
Jim B.
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
If a board does not have a finished edge to begin with as you have seem running
it through a table saw will not give a perfect edge. One way is to attach a straight
edge to the board being cut so it rides the fence then rip it. This is
very important that the edge be true before ripping pieces from it.
Or one would run the edge on a joiner first to true the edge before sawing ripping
it. But joiners are expensive. If you want to do it yourself go an purchase
a block plane, the longer the plane face the truer the edge will be that you
are planing.
Watch this:
you want a plane that size.
Good luck, learn and have fun,
WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410005#410005
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Flap works as an air-brake too. Can't do that with a moon cut-out. LOL!
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410006#410006
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One bladed propeller
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight comparing
a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard to beat!
Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but was not practical
for every day flying.
Cool video!
WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: "pringljo" <joseph.pringle(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Thanks Keri Ann. Someone recommended that I get a 16 foot board with a known straight
edge, lay it on top of my piece and use a Pattern bit on my router. That
seems like it might be an easy solution also.
I'll post the results
--------
Joe Pringle
Atlanta, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410008#410008
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
womenfly2 wrote:
> Sounds like you are okay to use with a 1/16 to 1/8 out of flatness. The jig will
help with the straightness, just block it up good. After its all glued-up
you will be fine.
>
> If a board does not have a finished edge to begin with as you have seem running
it through a table saw will not give a perfect edge. One way is to attach a
straight edge to the board being cut so it rides the fence then rip it. This
is very important that the edge be true before ripping pieces from it.
>
> Or one would run the edge on a joiner first to true the edge before ripping more
pieces form it. But joiners are expensive, specially if you only need it a
few times.
>
> If you want to do it yourself go an purchase a block plane, the longer the plane
face the truer the edge will be that you are planing. One does not need expensive
tools to do this.
>
> With a hand surface plane:
> With a table saw, you get the idea:
>
> You would want a plane at least that size with a razor sharp cutting blade.
>
> Good luck, learn and have fun,
> WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410010#410010
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: wing center section cutout
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Can't say enough for the wing center section cutout with the hand-hold I bu
ilt into mine. It makes getting in and out really easy plus I can stand up
in the seat and easily reach my center section luggage area to load/unload
. As Jack Phillips pointed out the upward visibility in turns (especially
in and around the traffic pattern) is really increased with the cutout.
I figured if so many of the biplane types (Jenny, Stearman, Waco) had cutou
ts with handholds, it probably is a good idea.
Just like a little dihedral. When debating flat wing or dihedral, Forrest
Barber said "heck,....birds have dihedral, that's a good enough reason for
me." Me too.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Could you not use a steel stud as a guide? I think they are pretty straight.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410019#410019
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Subject: Re: wing center section cutout
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Agree, whether you 'flop' or not I also highly recommend the grab handle,
mine is exposed when I open the flop.
rick h
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage
Partners, LLC] wrote:
> Can't say enough for the wing center section cutout with the hand-hold I
> built into mine. It makes getting in and out really easy plus I can stand
> up in the seat and easily reach my center section luggage area to
> load/unload. As Jack Phillips pointed out the upward visibility in turns
> (especially in and around the traffic pattern) is really increased with the
> cutout.
>
> I figured if so many of the biplane types (Jenny, Stearman, Waco) had
> cutouts with handholds, it probably is a good idea.
>
>
> Just like a little dihedral. When debating flat wing or dihedral,
> Forrest Barber said "heck,....birds have dihedral, that's a good enough
> reason for me." Me too.
>
>
> Mike C.
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Great thoughts on the Aux Fuel tank idea. I want a portable solution as opposed
to a permanent installation. I am going to take your suggestion and investigate
marine fuel tanks (red hold 6-10 gallons). I want to also look into an electrical
fuel pump squeezing the fuel bulb to pump that much gas up to my main
would be a lot of effort.
As for the envelope I hear what you are saying on the envelope although Piets
are basically the same they are all individually different given wheel configuration,
engine choices, etc.
I need to do more research to learn how to create the envelope I do think I have
the data.
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410022#410022
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam (N687MB) - Scott Tail Wheel
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Update on the tail wheel... pulled one link out of the chain between the thimble
and the spring. Brought the wheel in to perfect alignment.
This temporary ... I am going to replace the chain links (looks like something
you would buy at Ace Hardware) with turnbuckles. That way I can adjust both sides
and then safety wire them into place.
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410023#410023
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Excellent idea, Oscar! Just screw in on the ends...
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of taildrags
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 2:03 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How straight is straight?
-->
Could you not use a steel stud as a guide? I think they are pretty
straight.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410019#410019
________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: Center section half moon
Date: Oct 07, 2013
RGljaywNCg0KVGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBncmVhdC4gIEFjdHVhbGx5LCBJIGNvdWxkIGJyaW5nIG15
IENDIHVwIHRvbyBhcyBJJ2QgbGlrZSB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrIG9uIHRoZSBkZXNpZ24gSSd2ZSB1
c2VkIHRvIG1ha2UgaXQgYSA0Jy0wIiBjZW50ZXIgc2VjdGlvbi4gIExldCdzIHRyeSB0byBmaWd1
cmUgYSB0aW1lIG91dCBvbiB0aGUgd2Vla2VuZCBpZiB0aGF0IHdpbGwgd29yay4gIE15IHdlZWsg
aXMgYnVyaWVkLg0KDQpUb20gQi4NCg0KRnJvbTogaG9yenBvb2xAZ29sZGVuZ2F0ZS5uZXQNClRv
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OjExIC0wNTAwDQoNCgoKCgoKCgpIaSBUb20gCkRvIHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIHNlZSBtaW5lLCBpdHMg
YXQgbXkgCmhhbmdhci4KRGljayBOLgoKICAtLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIAog
IEZyb206IAogIHRtYnJhbnRAbXNuLmNvbSAKICAKICBUbzogcGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9u
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
Date: Oct 07, 2013
yeah=2C I guess I waffled a bit on whether i'd do the flop or a cutout and
this is where I've ended up too. I like the Hybrid flop/cutout idea too=2C
but it's too late for me to do that. Cutout it is.
Tom B.
> From: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center section half moon
> Date: Mon=2C 7 Oct 2013 07:33:30 -0400
>
gs.com>
>
> But it does increase visibility=2C particularly during tight turns...
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Smith Mountain Lake=2C Virginia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of womenfly2
> Sent: Monday=2C October 07=2C 2013 7:12 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center section half moon
>
>
>
> Doing a moon cutout reduces wing area=2C hence why Bernie used the center
> flap.
>
> --------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409982#409982
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: strut attachment
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Looking at the screen shot=2C some of you smart engineer types might be abl
e to help me on this one.. I'm using the Carlson Aircraft aluminum struts
(small) and using the 3/4" x 3/4" alum. bar attachment like Larry Williams.
I'm wondering on the spar attachements at the center section=2C do I need
to do the double "U" bracket as shown in "B" or couldn't I just reorientat
e the strut attach bolt so it's parallel with the spar attach bolts as show
n in "A". I don't see how there'd be a difference but I'm no engineer and
would love to hear feedback. I'm not trying to change it just to change it
=2C I just have very little welding experience so I'm paying to have it don
e - IE=2C the least I can give him the better.
FYI - model is not to scale.
Tom B.
From: tom.brant(at)amec.com
Date: Mon=2C 7 Oct 2013 13:36:56 -0400
Subject: strut attachment
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________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Progress on SkyScout...
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Thanks, Mike. Sorry I missed seeing everyone at the West Piet FLYIN this su
mmer. Maybe next year. Please let me know if you folks have any informal gat
hering.
Hope to see you sometime,
Ray Krause
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 7, 2013, at 6:29 AM, Michael Groah wrote:
>
> Wow Ray! That is so cool. I love it. I've been wondering how your proj
ect is going. It looks really great.
>
> Mike Groah
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 6, 2013, at 7:45 PM, Ray Krause wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
>>> Date: October 6, 2013 at 1:14:37
>>
>>> Gary,
>>>
>>> Here are a few photos of the fuselage and mount jig. It's on the gears, t
he tank is in place and the firewalls are ready. Notice the mechanical toe b
rakes! Just like the big boys, don't know how they will work? The tail wheel
is a copy of the Sonex setup. Uses 1/2" titanium rod. Pretty light. I may h
ave to re-make the wheel castor to raise the tail a few more inches. All con
trol cables have been run and seem to work correctly. Gear springs may have t
o be reduced in length, depending on what happens when the motor and the res
t of the garbage is added.
>>>
>>> When I finish the motor mount, I will have to work on the panel. No elec
tric wiring required! I will work on the A-65 this winter.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dick N" <horzpool(at)goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Center section half moon
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Tom
No problem call me when you get time. I will be helping Bob Poore for a
couple of days but I will be clear after that. It is at my hangar at
Cryystal.
Dick N
651-638-0793
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Center section half moon
Dick,
That would be great. Actually, I could bring my CC up too as I'd like
your feedback on the design I've used to make it a 4'-0" center section.
Let's try to figure a time out on the weekend if that will work. My
week is buried.
Tom B.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: horzpool(at)goldengate.net
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Center section half moon
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 23:21:11 -0500
Hi Tom
Do you want to see mine, its at my hangar.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: tmbrant(at)msn.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 1:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center section half moon
Wondering if anyone has any photos of the build up of the center
section cutout (half moon). I'm about to do this but having trouble
visualizing the process.
Thanks,
Tom B.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
=EF=BD~=EF=BD=03
=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=03g=EF=BD=EF=BD
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "skipgadd(at)earthlink.net" <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Felix For Sale
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Hi Jim,
Thanks, No, no wire. I do tie the scarf through the coat hangar loop in the jacket
so it doesn't pull on my neck.
Skip
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Boyer
Sent: 10/7/2013 1:09:50 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Felix For Sale
Hi Skip,
I love seeing that white scarf of yours trailing behind. I remember seeing a picture
of it streaming out behind when you were parked; did you have a wire in
it?
Cheers,
Jim B.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: strut attachment
From: "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
If you need to change the position of your wing - and almost EVERYONE needs to
- in order to correct your cg location, you need to use your "B" method.
Hopefully, you can visualize the parallelogram that "B" provides, which will allow
for the cabane struts to be moved fore and back.
With the sketch shown in "A," what happens is that the front and rear cabanes will
be locked into a fixed relationship. What they need is to be free to act
as hinges in the front / rear swing directions.
Follow the plans...
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410045#410045
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: step
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 07, 2013
Back in September, Douwe wrote-
> It just makes it easier. Now I wish I had installed one for the front pit too.
A step for the front 'pit is very simple and easy. It adds virtually no weight
and points straight ahead, so it adds no drag. Take a look at the port side
gear leg, aft member, in the top two photos here:
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/CorkyPiet.html
There is a short stub of tubing welded to the aft member of the gear leg vee, maybe
3" long, with a closed end. I use that little step every single time I need
to get anywhere into the front 'pit and it works perfectly. Now, if you're
getting out of the cockpit, you really can't see where to place your foot to
get on it, but if someone is helping they can guide your foot onto it. Getting
into the cockpit is infinitely easier by using that little step.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410047#410047
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Subject: Re: One bladed propeller
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
WF2, Why was it not practical for everyday flying?
Granted it is a more complex prop and would be more expensive to build.
It would require more thought to make sure it was installed correctly.
Once installed and setup, it has all the advantages of an adjustable prop
without the additonal hardware and complexity.
What are the wear issues?
On my other list there is an aerodynamacyst and he has explaned the
advantages of one blade. But quite simply, it is easier to build a two
bladed fixed prop.
On my Vtail it has a two bladed 88 inch prop. This is more efficient than
the later and shorter 84 inch prop. Newer models have IO 550s (300HP) that
all have 3 blade props. The 3 blade is less efficient, but shorter (less
ground strikes) and quieter. Besides it looks "sexier".
For a given HP about 1000 to 1300 RPM with a big bladed prop (fewer blades
is better) is the most efficient. However, most engines make their HP at
higher RPM.
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:42 PM, womenfly2 wrote:
>
> Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight
> comparing a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard
> to beat!
>
> Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but was
> not practical for every day flying.
>
> Cool video!
> WF2
>
> --------
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: One bladed propeller
From: Steve Emo <steve.emo58(at)gmail.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
wouldn't a one bladed prop side load the crankshaft/bearing? Putting a bend
ing moment at the hub that isn't there with a two or more bladed design.
The trailing blades don't get the clean air the leading blade had.
Steve
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Steven Dortch wro
te:
>
> WF2, Why was it not practical for everyday flying?
>
> Granted it is a more complex prop and would be more expensive to build. I
t would require more thought to make sure it was installed correctly.
> Once installed and setup, it has all the advantages of an adjustable prop w
ithout the additonal hardware and complexity.
>
> What are the wear issues?
>
> On my other list there is an aerodynamacyst and he has explaned the advant
ages of one blade. But quite simply, it is easier to build a two bladed fixe
d prop.
>
> On my Vtail it has a two bladed 88 inch prop. This is more efficient than
the later and shorter 84 inch prop. Newer models have IO 550s (300HP) that a
ll have 3 blade props. The 3 blade is less efficient, but shorter (less grou
nd strikes) and quieter. Besides it looks "sexier".
>
> For a given HP about 1000 to 1300 RPM with a big bladed prop (fewer blades
is better) is the most efficient. However, most engines make their HP at hi
gher RPM.
>
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:42 PM, womenfly2 wrote
:
>
>>
>> Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight comp
aring a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard to bea
t!
>>
>> Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but was
not practical for every day flying.
>>
>> Cool video!
>> WF2
>>
>> --------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007
>> s List Un/Subscription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: "David" <david(at)tynerroberts.com>
Subject: Re: One bladed propeller
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Single bladed props were used in the 50s for control line racing models for
this exact reason.
I recall that the efficiency of a single bladed prop is only matched by
contra-rotating props, but I could be wrong on that. Like most things. :-)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Emo
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: One bladed propeller
wouldn't a one bladed prop side load the crankshaft/bearing? Putting a
bending moment at the hub that isn't there with a two or more bladed design.
The trailing blades don't get the clean air the leading blade had.
Steve
On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Steven Dortch
wrote:
WF2, Why was it not practical for everyday flying?
Granted it is a more complex prop and would be more expensive to build. It
would require more thought to make sure it was installed correctly.
Once installed and setup, it has all the advantages of an adjustable prop
without the additonal hardware and complexity.
What are the wear issues?
On my other list there is an aerodynamacyst and he has explaned the
advantages of one blade. But quite simply, it is easier to build a two
bladed fixed prop.
On my Vtail it has a two bladed 88 inch prop. This is more efficient than
the later and shorter 84 inch prop. Newer models have IO 550s (300HP) that
all have 3 blade props. The 3 blade is less efficient, but shorter (less
ground strikes) and quieter. Besides it looks "sexier".
For a given HP about 1000 to 1300 RPM with a big bladed prop (fewer blades
is better) is the most efficient. However, most engines make their HP at
higher RPM.
On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:42 PM, womenfly2 wrote:
Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight
comparing a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard to
beat!
Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but was
not practical for every day flying.
Cool video!
WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007
s List Un/Subscription,
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Bkemike <bkemike(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: One bladed propeller
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Steve,
You're quite correct that a hard-mounted one-blade prop would put significan
t bending moments into the shaft...shades of crank-snapping Corvairs.
You may not have noticed in the video that the one-blade prop is free to mov
e fore and aft about an axis through the hub. This eliminates all the bendin
g moments that a hard-mounted one-blade would produce.
Mike Hardaway
Scratched on an iPad with blunt instruments.
On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:08 AM, Steve Emo wrote:
> wouldn't a one bladed prop side load the crankshaft/bearing? Putting a be
nding moment at the hub that isn't there with a two or more bladed design.
>
> The trailing blades don't get the clean air the leading blade had.
>
> Steve
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Steven Dortch wro
te:
>
>> WF2, Why was it not practical for everyday flying?
>>
>> Granted it is a more complex prop and would be more expensive to build. I
t would require more thought to make sure it was installed correctly.
>> Once installed and setup, it has all the advantages of an adjustable prop
without the additonal hardware and complexity.
>>
>> What are the wear issues?
>>
>> On my other list there is an aerodynamacyst and he has explaned the advan
tages of one blade. But quite simply, it is easier to build a two bladed fix
ed prop.
>>
>> On my Vtail it has a two bladed 88 inch prop. This is more efficient tha
n the later and shorter 84 inch prop. Newer models have IO 550s (300HP) that
all have 3 blade props. The 3 blade is less efficient, but shorter (less gr
ound strikes) and quieter. Besides it looks "sexier".
>>
>> For a given HP about 1000 to 1300 RPM with a big bladed prop (fewer blade
s is better) is the most efficient. However, most engines make their HP at h
igher RPM.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:42 PM, womenfly2 wrote
:
m>
>>>
>>> Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight com
paring a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard to be
at!
>>>
>>> Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but wa
s not practical for every day flying.
>>>
>>> Cool video!
>>> WF2
>>>
>>> --------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007
>>> s List Un/Subscription,
>>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> ====
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT <tmbrant(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: strut attachment
Date: Oct 08, 2013
good catch - forgot about that feature.
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: strut attachment
> From: tkreiner(at)gmail.com
> Date: Mon=2C 7 Oct 2013 20:25:29 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> If you need to change the position of your wing - and almost EVERYONE nee
ds to - in order to correct your cg location=2C you need to use your "B" me
thod.
>
> Hopefully=2C you can visualize the parallelogram that "B" provides=2C whi
ch will allow for the cabane struts to be moved fore and back.
>
> With the sketch shown in "A=2C" what happens is that the front and rear c
abanes will be locked into a fixed relationship. What they need is to be f
ree to act as hinges in the front / rear swing directions.
>
> Follow the plans...
>
> --------
> Tom Kreiner
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410045#410045
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Need email
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Can someone give me Malcolm Morrison's email address? Thanks.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Subject: Re: Need email
From: Ken Bickers <bickers.ken(at)gmail.com>
Dan, this may be what you are looking for: gliderx5(at)comcast.net.
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:24 AM, wrote:
> Can someone give me Malcolm Morrison's email address? Thanks.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Puryear, TN
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Weight & Balance (WB) / Datum / Center of Gravity (CG)
======================================
Perhaps I am just having too much fun over thinking this...... I would like to
figure this out for my piece of mind.
Attached below for N687MB are:
W&B Spreadsheet
W&B Arm Chart (screen shot)
W&B Calculations (screen shot)
Snap shots of Page 1 of the 1933 plans that hint that the Datum is actually 7.5
inches ahead of the leading edge.
Center of Gravity
Can someone figure out where I went wrong in the spreadsheet? The Weight/Arm/Moment
table says CG is at 17.7 aft of the datum. The long hand calculations /
Percent of Wing Chord says the CG is at 15.2 inches aft of the datum. I can't
find the error that is causing the 2.5 inch difference.
Datum
I read posts that say the Datum is the leading edge of the Wing. My question right
now is based on the attached snap shots of my 1933 plans for N687MB. I can
find no notes any where on the plans that says that Datum is the LE.
However, in the snap shots of page 1 - there is vertical line 7.5" ahead of the
LE and a penciled in note that says its 9.5 inches ahead of the LE. Could this
line be the Datum?
I am hoping someday soon I will be able to talk with Mr. Brusilow, the builder,
and ask him.
[/u]
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410086#410086
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__main_wheel_cl_aft_of_datum_759.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__pg_1__datum__386.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__wing_aft_of_datum_108.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__ident_box__496.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_wandb_detailed_calculations_600.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_wandb_arm_measurements_345.png
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pietenpol_wandb_profile_final_ver_1_679.xls
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
When you come across a question like this it's always reassuring to recall where
the original came from. You're worrying about a dimension that probably wouldn't
have bothered the original builder in the 30's who was laying out dimensions
on a wood floor and using equipment of the era. Don't lower your personal
standards but don't get caught up in the mind-set that you can't build an 80 year
old design unless you have a CNC machine to cut the pieces. A piet ain't a
Saturn 5!![/list]
--------
L.V.Williams
XCG, XCMR,EPP
USHPA, EAA, AMA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410090#410090
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Jim; the "mystery vertical line" is, of course, the plane of the firewall. It's
a very handy and uniform place from which to measure other things (such as the
axle or the wing). It can also be used as the datum for doing your W&B but
so can anything else that you choose. Some people use the very front of the
prop hub, simply so that all moment arms are measured in the same direction from
that point and all moments are clockwise and positive (no subtracting of moments).
It is useful to have the wing leading edge as the datum because that's
the reference that we typically refer the acceptable range of CG location to,
and it's also what most people use. If you keep your + and - signs correct
for moment arms that are forward and aft of the datum, the math is pretty simple
and it all works out.
I have not checked through your calculations to see where things may have gone
amiss, but I'll be happy to do so this evening when I have some time. Math errors
are common in W&B calculations.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410101#410101
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Which one of these denotes "Top Curmudgeon"?
--------
L.V.Williams
XCG, XCMR,EPP
USHPA, EAA, AMA
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 8, 2013 6:19 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How straight is straight?
When you come across a question like this it's always reassuring to recall
where
the original came from. You're worrying about a dimension that probably wou
ldn't
have bothered the original builder in the 30's who was laying out dimension
s on
a wood floor and using equipment of the era. Don't lower your personal stan
dards
but don't get caught up in the mind-set that you can't build an 80 year old
design unless you have a CNC machine to cut the pieces. A piet ain't a Satu
rn
5!![/list]
--------
L.V.Williams
XCG, XCMR,EPP
USHPA, EAA, AMA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410090#410090
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: John Weber <ransfly(at)aol.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hi Jim,
Was looking at your figures and one thing I had a question about is your empty
weight. Your figures are showing the mains at 176 and 178 and the tailwheel
at 20 lbs. This gives an empty weight of 374 lbs. I haven't built a Piet,
but have built a Rans S-6 and Rans S-12, so perhaps this could be a "little light"?
Would like to see some empty weights from the other builders. Just my
$.02 and certainly not throwing any stones. John Weber
On Oct 8, 2013, at 3:25 PM, "Fun2av8" wrote:
>
> Weight & Balance (WB) / Datum / Center of Gravity (CG)
> ======================================
> Perhaps I am just having too much fun over thinking this...... I would like
to figure this out for my piece of mind.
>
> Attached below for N687MB are:
> W&B Spreadsheet
> W&B Arm Chart (screen shot)
> W&B Calculations (screen shot)
> Snap shots of Page 1 of the 1933 plans that hint that the Datum is actually 7.5
inches ahead of the leading edge.
>
> Center of Gravity
> Can someone figure out where I went wrong in the spreadsheet? The Weight/Arm/Moment
table says CG is at 17.7 aft of the datum. The long hand calculations
/ Percent of Wing Chord says the CG is at 15.2 inches aft of the datum. I can't
find the error that is causing the 2.5 inch difference.
>
> Datum
> I read posts that say the Datum is the leading edge of the Wing. My question
right now is based on the attached snap shots of my 1933 plans for N687MB. I
can find no notes any where on the plans that says that Datum is the LE.
>
> However, in the snap shots of page 1 - there is vertical line 7.5" ahead of the
LE and a penciled in note that says its 9.5 inches ahead of the LE. Could
this line be the Datum?
>
> I am hoping someday soon I will be able to talk with Mr. Brusilow, the builder,
and ask him.
>
>
> [/u]
>
> --------
> Jim McWhorter
> N687MB (New Owner)
> Culpeper, VA KCJR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410086#410086
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__main_wheel_cl_aft_of_datum_759.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__pg_1__datum__386.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__wing_aft_of_datum_108.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb__1933_plans__ident_box__496.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_wandb_detailed_calculations_600.png
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/n687mb_wandb_arm_measurements_345.png
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pietenpol_wandb_profile_final_ver_1_679.xls
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
You are absolutely right about the weights . I just took the weights off the sheet
provided to me at the time of sale and plugged them in.
The light just didnt go off that these were really under stated. I just checked
an archive and found that a Piet with the long fuse and an 0-200 should come
in at about 775 pounds empty weight.
Nice catch.
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410105#410105
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Hi Oscar,
Thanks for chiming in. I do understand that the Datum can be anything the builder
wants it to be including some point in space beyond the hub - why some would
is beyond me. But the FAA W&B book says its possible.
Since I didn't build Mr. Sam and at the moment can't get in touch with the builder
- what do i do now? The airplane flies fine and probably could just accept
that and life goes on. But, I just one of those guys who just has to know
for my own piece of mind. Just for fun, I did this crap for flights in my Maule.
Hows this for a theoretical approach to the problem. Could one put the Piet on
a fulcrum (a heavily padded saw horse) and just find the empty weight balance
point and call that the CG point. Then, put in a pilot and a full load of fuel
and rebalance the Piet. That would be the approximate aft limit of the CG.
Then put in a passenger and once again re-balance the Piet. Could one call
that the forward limit of the CG?
Then could one measure from the empty weight CG to the Leading edge and call that
the Initial datum measurement? From there just re-measure everything.
Then, how would one prove this using conventional W&B / CG calculations?
Or, maybe I should just go flying ......javascript:emoticon('[Laughing]')
taildrags wrote:
> Jim; the "mystery vertical line" is, of course, the plane of the firewall. It's
a very handy and uniform place from which to measure other things (such as
the axle or the wing). It can also be used as the datum for doing your W&B but
so can anything else that you choose. Some people use the very front of the
prop hub, simply so that all moment arms are measured in the same direction
from that point and all moments are clockwise and positive (no subtracting of
moments). It is useful to have the wing leading edge as the datum because that's
the reference that we typically refer the acceptable range of CG location
to, and it's also what most people use. If you keep your + and - signs correct
for moment arms that are forward and aft of the datum, the math is pretty simple
and it all works out.
>
> I have not checked through your calculations to see where things may have gone
amiss, but I'll be happy to do so this evening when I have some time. Math
errors are common in W&B calculations.
[Laughing]
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410106#410106
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Subject: Re: How straight is straight?
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Larry, your words of wisdom make me feel much better about the precision
(not) work I did tonight. At times I far exceed the quality of Mr. Waterman
(he made my plane.) at other times I feel like a gorilla with a BFR.
Blue Skies,
Steve D.
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Larry Williams wrote:
>
> When you come across a question like this it's always reassuring to recall
> where the original came from. You're worrying about a dimension that
> probably wouldn't have bothered the original builder in the 30's who was
> laying out dimensions on a wood floor and using equipment of the era. Don't
> lower your personal standards but don't get caught up in the mind-set that
> you can't build an 80 year old design unless you have a CNC machine to cut
> the pieces. A piet ain't a Saturn 5!![/list]
>
> --------
> L.V.Williams
> XCG, XCMR,EPP
> USHPA, EAA, AMA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410090#410090
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
For my "real" plane I carry several example W&Bs with me. Then I can simply
reference them Probably not as important on Most Piets, but perhaps for
some. Examples I would do are.
Tanks full, Pilot only.
Main (front) tank full, Pilot only.
Aux tank full. Pilot only.
Tanks empty Pilot only.
Tanks full, pilot and front Pax.
Front tank, pilot and pax
Tanks empty pilot and front Pax.
I would also figure out how where you go past the aft CG. IE with the front
tank empty how big can the back seater be?
Where do you go past Forward CG? How skinny can the pilot be with the front
tank full?
Don't forget, If you carry a full craftsman took kitl in the box behind
your rear seat it should be included, As well as the full set of Clydesdale
horseshoes you carry in the custom storage bag hung under the engine.
Once you have figured out these calculations you will have a very good feel
for what (and who) you can carry.
Y'all be careful out there.
Steve D
Far Forward CG and the plane gets more twitchy, far back CG and the plane
responds sluggishly.
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:58 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
> Jim; the "mystery vertical line" is, of course, the plane of the firewall.
> It's a very handy and uniform place from which to measure other things
> (such as the axle or the wing). It can also be used as the datum for doing
> your W&B but so can anything else that you choose. Some people use the
> very front of the prop hub, simply so that all moment arms are measured in
> the same direction from that point and all moments are clockwise and
> positive (no subtracting of moments). It is useful to have the wing
> leading edge as the datum because that's the reference that we typically
> refer the acceptable range of CG location to, and it's also what most
> people use. If you keep your + and - signs correct for moment arms that
> are forward and aft of the datum, the math is pretty simple and it all
> works out.
>
> I have not checked through your calculations to see where things may have
> gone amiss, but I'll be happy to do so this evening when I have some time.
> Math errors are common in W&B calculations.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410101#410101
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 08, 2013
Jim;
Do you keep your plane in a hangar? If so, this can be pretty easy and you won't
be in any hurry to get it done. Since the airplane is flying, you don't have
to worry about getting it done any certain time and you can do it in two sessions.
You could probably do it all yourself, but it's far easier with two people.
In one session you'll be measuring things and in the second session you'll
be weighing the airplane.
Get some tape (painter's tape is fine and it comes off your hangar floor easily,
but anything else will do), plus a length of nice strong twine and a plumb bob
or anything heavy that you can tie to the end of the twine. A point on the
end of it just helps you get closer on your measurements but it can be a big
lag bolt or anything similar if you don't have a plumb bob. Get a Sharpie to
mark on the tape, plus a piece of paper and pencil to write down your measurements.
Then get a steel measuring tape that's at least 20 or 25 ft. long and you're
ready.
With the airplane out of the hangar (or in it... doesn't matter but it's easier
to do if you don't have to crawl around under the airplane), lay a straight stripe
of tape on the floor, in line with the nose and tail of the airplane and
close to where you usually park the airplane and you know the wings and tail
will clear everything. Next, lay a second stripe of tape across the first to
form a cross, and try to get it so it falls more or less where your tires will
sit when you roll the plane in to line up with the first stripe. Before you
roll the plane in though, check to make sure the second stripe is at right angles
to the first. You can do this a number of ways but you have twine and a measuring
tape, so you can always just pick a number (like 4 ft.) and make a mark
on each tape stripe that distance away from where they cross. Then measure
the distances diagonally between the marks to make sure they are the same. Pick
up the cross tape and adjust it if need be to get it square to the other stripe.
Now roll the airplane in, lining it up on the long stripe. Guide the tailwheel
down the stripe till the mains roll right onto the cross stripe. You may need
to roll it back and forth a bit till the tailwheel is on the stripe and a plumb
line dropped from the propeller hub drops right onto the tape. If the main
axles are also right over the cross stripe, chock the mains and you're ready
to start measuring. There are a lot of interesting measurements that you can
take with this setup that don't have much to do with weight and balance, but
they can be useful at other times. I won't worry with those now.
You'll need a sawhorse or ladder, or you could also use a rope or hoist slung from
your hangar roof, but you've got to raise the tail till the fuselage is in
the straight and level position. A rope and pulley could be the best way to
do this, but blocking up the tail with boxes or a sawhorse can do it too, as long
as you can get the fuselage level and steady, and as long as you can drop
a plumb line from the center of the tailwheel to the floor. Setting the tailwheel
up on a stand won't usually let you do this. And watch it when you're raising
the tail, since some aircraft get a little light on the tail in the level
attitude, and can go on their nose if you overshoot. Get an accurate level
and put it on the straightest section of fuselage longeron that you have easy
access to. Usually that will be right inside the rear cockpit, the top longerons.
A bubble level will do, but if you have one of those "angle finder" gizmos
or a digital level, that's best. If you do it carefully and slowly, you'll
only ever have to do this once.
Airplane is level. Axles are directly over the cross tape, nose and tailwheel
are directly over the longitudinal tape. Wheels are chocked.
Now it's just a matter of taking your plumb line and measuring tape and getting
the important measurements. The biggie is that leading edge, since it's your
datum. Pick a side of the airplane that you want to work on and you can take
all the measurements on that side. It doesn't matter which. Let the plumb line
drape over the wing so the plumb bob goes down to the floor from the leading
edge. Let the plumb bob stop swinging, then put down a piece of tape with
a nice clear mark right where the plumb bob points. Now you can measure anything
you want or need. Drop a line from the face of the firewall and measure aft
to the leading edge. Measure from the leading edge mark back to the line that
the landing gear make. Drop your plumb line from the center of the tailwheel
and measure from the landing gear tape back to where the tailwheel plumb
bob drops. And, as long as you've got everything set up, you can measure from
the face of the prop hub to the firewall, you can measure the track (distance
between contact patches of the two mains, you can measure from the firewall to
the tailpost to determine which of the various Air Camper fuselage lengths you
have, you can put your angle finder on the wing cabanes and determine if they
are inclined and if so, by how much (usually measured at the top where the
cabanes attach to the underside of the wing, and measured in inches aft of vertical).
With these measurements, you can determine all the other moment arms once you do
the weighing because you have determined the locations of the three weighing
points and their positions relative to the leading edge, which is the datum.
All of the laying out and measuring can be done in about an hour, if you have
help and have the few simple tools that are needed.
The weighing is next, and you could move right on to it if you have the scales
available. With some prior planning, you could also do the whole thing in one
process by setting the airplane up on the scales and doing the weighing and measuring
all at one shot. Let's say you're doing it in two phases, so now the
tape and marks are all off your hangar floor and you're not measuring anything
this time... only reading scales.
You'll want to pick a day when it's not too windy. You'd be surprised what even
a breeze or gust will do to the reading on a digital scale when it flows around
an airplane. So, get the best scales you have available but even if you decide
to go with digital bathroom scales, at least make the two that you use on
the mains identical. they have to go up to at least about 400 pounds. The
one for the tailwheel can be smaller, but if all three are identical, even better.
I used digital electronic race car scales for weighing my airplane, but
Mr. Pietenpol very likely didn't have any of those and his airplanes flew just
fine.
Roll the mains onto two of the scales using ramps. Easier with two people. Raise
the tail to the level position again, but this time you can use a small table,
tool chest, or other stable platform to put the tailwheel right on the scale
with the fuselage leveled using your angle finder or level to get it nice
and level. In the best case, you will have drained all fuel out of the airplane
so you get an empty weight. You can fool with draining the gascolator, but
it's not a big deal. I would weigh it with the normal operating level of oil
in the engine and make note of that. Make sure you've taken handheld radio,
water bottle, knee board, headsets, spare parts and tools, fuzzy dice, and any
other loose items out of the cockpits and stowage areas. Remember, it's "basic
EMPTY weight".
Read the scales and record the weights. Left main, right main, tailwheel. Those
are important numbers and they should be something like in the 300s for the
mains and less than 30 for the tail.
Now to determine the moment arms for fuel, passenger, and pilot. I'll describe
the situation for a fuel tank in the nose. With the airplane still level and
on the scales, take a KNOWN quantity of fuel, something reasonable like 5 or
6 gallons, and pour all of it into the fuel tank. Replace the tank cap. Read
all three scales again and write down the numbers. Later, you can go back and
reverse-calculate the fuel moment arms by knowing those three weights and the
amount of weight of fuel that you added. You will then know the fuel moment
arm, which should never change unless you make changes in the tank location.
To determine the passenger and pilot moment arms, find a volunteer and get their
weight. Don't let them guess at their weight... have them weigh themselves
either before you use the scales for the plane weighing, or on another set of
scales. Have them climb into each cockpit slowly and carefully, make sure nothing
moves on the scales, and record the weights in both configurations. Again,
later on you can reverse-calculate the moment arm distances for passenger and
pilot if you know what the person's weight was and what the new readings are
on your scales.
You're done in the hangar. Probably another hour to do the weighing, but if you
did it carefully and remembered to record all the numbers, you'll never have
to do it again. You can do all of the above on a rainy or wintry day when you
don't have anything else to do, and of course you can work out the formulas
and W&B diagrams later on when you're at home and comfortable.
That should do it. No mystery vertical lines, and everything you have will be
useful at one time or another. I probably missed something along the line, but
I'm sure someone will chime in if I have.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410118#410118
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Y'all might check with your local EAA chapter. Chapter 35 has a calibrated
set of scaled used only for weight and balance on aircraft. For $25 you get
to use the scales, AND the guy who manages them for the club is the best
asset. He has done this many times and will walk you through this.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:03 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
> Jim;
>
> Do you keep your plane in a hangar? If so, this can be pretty easy and
> you won't be in any hurry to get it done. Since the airplane is flying,
> you don't have to worry about getting it done any certain time and you can
> do it in two sessions. You could probably do it all yourself, but it's far
> easier with two people. In one session you'll be measuring things and in
> the second session you'll be weighing the airplane.
>
> Get some tape (painter's tape is fine and it comes off your hangar floor
> easily, but anything else will do), plus a length of nice strong twine and
> a plumb bob or anything heavy that you can tie to the end of the twine. A
> point on the end of it just helps you get closer on your measurements but
> it can be a big lag bolt or anything similar if you don't have a plumb bob.
> Get a Sharpie to mark on the tape, plus a piece of paper and pencil to
> write down your measurements. Then get a steel measuring tape that's at
> least 20 or 25 ft. long and you're ready.
>
> With the airplane out of the hangar (or in it... doesn't matter but it's
> easier to do if you don't have to crawl around under the airplane), lay a
> straight stripe of tape on the floor, in line with the nose and tail of the
> airplane and close to where you usually park the airplane and you know the
> wings and tail will clear everything. Next, lay a second stripe of tape
> across the first to form a cross, and try to get it so it falls more or
> less where your tires will sit when you roll the plane in to line up with
> the first stripe. Before you roll the plane in though, check to make sure
> the second stripe is at right angles to the first. You can do this a
> number of ways but you have twine and a measuring tape, so you can always
> just pick a number (like 4 ft.) and make a mark on each tape stripe that
> distance away from where they cross. Then measure the distances diagonally
> between the marks to make sure they are the same. Pick up the cross tape
> and adjust it if need be to ge!
> t it square to the other stripe.
>
> Now roll the airplane in, lining it up on the long stripe. Guide the
> tailwheel down the stripe till the mains roll right onto the cross stripe.
> You may need to roll it back and forth a bit till the tailwheel is on the
> stripe and a plumb line dropped from the propeller hub drops right onto the
> tape. If the main axles are also right over the cross stripe, chock the
> mains and you're ready to start measuring. There are a lot of interesting
> measurements that you can take with this setup that don't have much to do
> with weight and balance, but they can be useful at other times. I won't
> worry with those now.
>
> You'll need a sawhorse or ladder, or you could also use a rope or hoist
> slung from your hangar roof, but you've got to raise the tail till the
> fuselage is in the straight and level position. A rope and pulley could be
> the best way to do this, but blocking up the tail with boxes or a sawhorse
> can do it too, as long as you can get the fuselage level and steady, and as
> long as you can drop a plumb line from the center of the tailwheel to the
> floor. Setting the tailwheel up on a stand won't usually let you do this.
> And watch it when you're raising the tail, since some aircraft get a
> little light on the tail in the level attitude, and can go on their nose if
> you overshoot. Get an accurate level and put it on the straightest section
> of fuselage longeron that you have easy access to. Usually that will be
> right inside the rear cockpit, the top longerons. A bubble level will do,
> but if you have one of those "angle finder" gizmos or a digital level,
> that's best. If you do it ca!
> refully and slowly, you'll only ever have to do this once.
>
> Airplane is level. Axles are directly over the cross tape, nose and
> tailwheel are directly over the longitudinal tape. Wheels are chocked.
>
> Now it's just a matter of taking your plumb line and measuring tape and
> getting the important measurements. The biggie is that leading edge, since
> it's your datum. Pick a side of the airplane that you want to work on and
> you can take all the measurements on that side. It doesn't matter which.
> Let the plumb line drape over the wing so the plumb bob goes down to the
> floor from the leading edge. Let the plumb bob stop swinging, then put
> down a piece of tape with a nice clear mark right where the plumb bob
> points. Now you can measure anything you want or need. Drop a line from
> the face of the firewall and measure aft to the leading edge. Measure from
> the leading edge mark back to the line that the landing gear make. Drop
> your plumb line from the center of the tailwheel and measure from the
> landing gear tape back to where the tailwheel plumb bob drops. And, as
> long as you've got everything set up, you can measure from the face of the
> prop hub to the firewall, you can m!
> easure the track (distance between contact patches of the two mains, you
> can measure from the firewall to the tailpost to determine which of the
> various Air Camper fuselage lengths you have, you can put your angle finder
> on the wing cabanes and determine if they are inclined and if so, by how
> much (usually measured at the top where the cabanes attach to the underside
> of the wing, and measured in inches aft of vertical).
>
> With these measurements, you can determine all the other moment arms once
> you do the weighing because you have determined the locations of the three
> weighing points and their positions relative to the leading edge, which is
> the datum. All of the laying out and measuring can be done in about an
> hour, if you have help and have the few simple tools that are needed.
>
> The weighing is next, and you could move right on to it if you have the
> scales available. With some prior planning, you could also do the whole
> thing in one process by setting the airplane up on the scales and doing the
> weighing and measuring all at one shot. Let's say you're doing it in two
> phases, so now the tape and marks are all off your hangar floor and you're
> not measuring anything this time... only reading scales.
>
> You'll want to pick a day when it's not too windy. You'd be surprised
> what even a breeze or gust will do to the reading on a digital scale when
> it flows around an airplane. So, get the best scales you have available
> but even if you decide to go with digital bathroom scales, at least make
> the two that you use on the mains identical. they have to go up to at
> least about 400 pounds. The one for the tailwheel can be smaller, but if
> all three are identical, even better. I used digital electronic race car
> scales for weighing my airplane, but Mr. Pietenpol very likely didn't have
> any of those and his airplanes flew just fine.
>
> Roll the mains onto two of the scales using ramps. Easier with two
> people. Raise the tail to the level position again, but this time you can
> use a small table, tool chest, or other stable platform to put the
> tailwheel right on the scale with the fuselage leveled using your angle
> finder or level to get it nice and level. In the best case, you will have
> drained all fuel out of the airplane so you get an empty weight. You can
> fool with draining the gascolator, but it's not a big deal. I would weigh
> it with the normal operating level of oil in the engine and make note of
> that. Make sure you've taken handheld radio, water bottle, knee board,
> headsets, spare parts and tools, fuzzy dice, and any other loose items out
> of the cockpits and stowage areas. Remember, it's "basic EMPTY weight".
>
> Read the scales and record the weights. Left main, right main, tailwheel.
> Those are important numbers and they should be something like in the 300s
> for the mains and less than 30 for the tail.
>
> Now to determine the moment arms for fuel, passenger, and pilot. I'll
> describe the situation for a fuel tank in the nose. With the airplane
> still level and on the scales, take a KNOWN quantity of fuel, something
> reasonable like 5 or 6 gallons, and pour all of it into the fuel tank.
> Replace the tank cap. Read all three scales again and write down the
> numbers. Later, you can go back and reverse-calculate the fuel moment arms
> by knowing those three weights and the amount of weight of fuel that you
> added. You will then know the fuel moment arm, which should never change
> unless you make changes in the tank location.
>
> To determine the passenger and pilot moment arms, find a volunteer and get
> their weight. Don't let them guess at their weight... have them weigh
> themselves either before you use the scales for the plane weighing, or on
> another set of scales. Have them climb into each cockpit slowly and
> carefully, make sure nothing moves on the scales, and record the weights in
> both configurations. Again, later on you can reverse-calculate the moment
> arm distances for passenger and pilot if you know what the person's weight
> was and what the new readings are on your scales.
>
> You're done in the hangar. Probably another hour to do the weighing, but
> if you did it carefully and remembered to record all the numbers, you'll
> never have to do it again. You can do all of the above on a rainy or
> wintry day when you don't have anything else to do, and of course you can
> work out the formulas and W&B diagrams later on when you're at home and
> comfortable.
>
> That should do it. No mystery vertical lines, and everything you have
> will be useful at one time or another. I probably missed something along
> the line, but I'm sure someone will chime in if I have.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410118#410118
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: Marcus Zechini <marcus.zechini(at)gmail.com>
Jim,
EAA 186 has scales. I want to borrow, too.
Zeke
On Oct 9, 2013 7:04 AM, "Steven Dortch" wrote:
> Y'all might check with your local EAA chapter. Chapter 35 has a calibrated
> set of scaled used only for weight and balance on aircraft. For $25 you get
> to use the scales, AND the guy who manages them for the club is the best
> asset. He has done this many times and will walk you through this.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:03 PM, taildrags wrote:
>
>>
>> Jim;
>>
>> Do you keep your plane in a hangar? If so, this can be pretty easy and
>> you won't be in any hurry to get it done. Since the airplane is flying,
>> you don't have to worry about getting it done any certain time and you can
>> do it in two sessions. You could probably do it all yourself, but it's far
>> easier with two people. In one session you'll be measuring things and in
>> the second session you'll be weighing the airplane.
>>
>> Get some tape (painter's tape is fine and it comes off your hangar floor
>> easily, but anything else will do), plus a length of nice strong twine and
>> a plumb bob or anything heavy that you can tie to the end of the twine. A
>> point on the end of it just helps you get closer on your measurements but
>> it can be a big lag bolt or anything similar if you don't have a plumb bob.
>> Get a Sharpie to mark on the tape, plus a piece of paper and pencil to
>> write down your measurements. Then get a steel measuring tape that's at
>> least 20 or 25 ft. long and you're ready.
>>
>> With the airplane out of the hangar (or in it... doesn't matter but it's
>> easier to do if you don't have to crawl around under the airplane), lay a
>> straight stripe of tape on the floor, in line with the nose and tail of the
>> airplane and close to where you usually park the airplane and you know the
>> wings and tail will clear everything. Next, lay a second stripe of tape
>> across the first to form a cross, and try to get it so it falls more or
>> less where your tires will sit when you roll the plane in to line up with
>> the first stripe. Before you roll the plane in though, check to make sure
>> the second stripe is at right angles to the first. You can do this a
>> number of ways but you have twine and a measuring tape, so you can always
>> just pick a number (like 4 ft.) and make a mark on each tape stripe that
>> distance away from where they cross. Then measure the distances diagonally
>> between the marks to make sure they are the same. Pick up the cross tape
>> and adjust it if need be to ge!
>> t it square to the other stripe.
>>
>> Now roll the airplane in, lining it up on the long stripe. Guide the
>> tailwheel down the stripe till the mains roll right onto the cross stripe.
>> You may need to roll it back and forth a bit till the tailwheel is on the
>> stripe and a plumb line dropped from the propeller hub drops right onto the
>> tape. If the main axles are also right over the cross stripe, chock the
>> mains and you're ready to start measuring. There are a lot of interesting
>> measurements that you can take with this setup that don't have much to do
>> with weight and balance, but they can be useful at other times. I won't
>> worry with those now.
>>
>> You'll need a sawhorse or ladder, or you could also use a rope or hoist
>> slung from your hangar roof, but you've got to raise the tail till the
>> fuselage is in the straight and level position. A rope and pulley could be
>> the best way to do this, but blocking up the tail with boxes or a sawhorse
>> can do it too, as long as you can get the fuselage level and steady, and as
>> long as you can drop a plumb line from the center of the tailwheel to the
>> floor. Setting the tailwheel up on a stand won't usually let you do this.
>> And watch it when you're raising the tail, since some aircraft get a
>> little light on the tail in the level attitude, and can go on their nose if
>> you overshoot. Get an accurate level and put it on the straightest section
>> of fuselage longeron that you have easy access to. Usually that will be
>> right inside the rear cockpit, the top longerons. A bubble level will do,
>> but if you have one of those "angle finder" gizmos or a digital level,
>> that's best. If you do it ca!
>> refully and slowly, you'll only ever have to do this once.
>>
>> Airplane is level. Axles are directly over the cross tape, nose and
>> tailwheel are directly over the longitudinal tape. Wheels are chocked.
>>
>> Now it's just a matter of taking your plumb line and measuring tape and
>> getting the important measurements. The biggie is that leading edge, since
>> it's your datum. Pick a side of the airplane that you want to work on and
>> you can take all the measurements on that side. It doesn't matter which.
>> Let the plumb line drape over the wing so the plumb bob goes down to the
>> floor from the leading edge. Let the plumb bob stop swinging, then put
>> down a piece of tape with a nice clear mark right where the plumb bob
>> points. Now you can measure anything you want or need. Drop a line from
>> the face of the firewall and measure aft to the leading edge. Measure from
>> the leading edge mark back to the line that the landing gear make. Drop
>> your plumb line from the center of the tailwheel and measure from the
>> landing gear tape back to where the tailwheel plumb bob drops. And, as
>> long as you've got everything set up, you can measure from the face of the
>> prop hub to the firewall, you can m!
>> easure the track (distance between contact patches of the two mains, you
>> can measure from the firewall to the tailpost to determine which of the
>> various Air Camper fuselage lengths you have, you can put your angle finder
>> on the wing cabanes and determine if they are inclined and if so, by how
>> much (usually measured at the top where the cabanes attach to the underside
>> of the wing, and measured in inches aft of vertical).
>>
>> With these measurements, you can determine all the other moment arms once
>> you do the weighing because you have determined the locations of the three
>> weighing points and their positions relative to the leading edge, which is
>> the datum. All of the laying out and measuring can be done in about an
>> hour, if you have help and have the few simple tools that are needed.
>>
>> The weighing is next, and you could move right on to it if you have the
>> scales available. With some prior planning, you could also do the whole
>> thing in one process by setting the airplane up on the scales and doing the
>> weighing and measuring all at one shot. Let's say you're doing it in two
>> phases, so now the tape and marks are all off your hangar floor and you're
>> not measuring anything this time... only reading scales.
>>
>> You'll want to pick a day when it's not too windy. You'd be surprised
>> what even a breeze or gust will do to the reading on a digital scale when
>> it flows around an airplane. So, get the best scales you have available
>> but even if you decide to go with digital bathroom scales, at least make
>> the two that you use on the mains identical. they have to go up to at
>> least about 400 pounds. The one for the tailwheel can be smaller, but if
>> all three are identical, even better. I used digital electronic race car
>> scales for weighing my airplane, but Mr. Pietenpol very likely didn't have
>> any of those and his airplanes flew just fine.
>>
>> Roll the mains onto two of the scales using ramps. Easier with two
>> people. Raise the tail to the level position again, but this time you can
>> use a small table, tool chest, or other stable platform to put the
>> tailwheel right on the scale with the fuselage leveled using your angle
>> finder or level to get it nice and level. In the best case, you will have
>> drained all fuel out of the airplane so you get an empty weight. You can
>> fool with draining the gascolator, but it's not a big deal. I would weigh
>> it with the normal operating level of oil in the engine and make note of
>> that. Make sure you've taken handheld radio, water bottle, knee board,
>> headsets, spare parts and tools, fuzzy dice, and any other loose items out
>> of the cockpits and stowage areas. Remember, it's "basic EMPTY weight".
>>
>> Read the scales and record the weights. Left main, right main,
>> tailwheel. Those are important numbers and they should be something like
>> in the 300s for the mains and less than 30 for the tail.
>>
>> Now to determine the moment arms for fuel, passenger, and pilot. I'll
>> describe the situation for a fuel tank in the nose. With the airplane
>> still level and on the scales, take a KNOWN quantity of fuel, something
>> reasonable like 5 or 6 gallons, and pour all of it into the fuel tank.
>> Replace the tank cap. Read all three scales again and write down the
>> numbers. Later, you can go back and reverse-calculate the fuel moment arms
>> by knowing those three weights and the amount of weight of fuel that you
>> added. You will then know the fuel moment arm, which should never change
>> unless you make changes in the tank location.
>>
>> To determine the passenger and pilot moment arms, find a volunteer and
>> get their weight. Don't let them guess at their weight... have them weigh
>> themselves either before you use the scales for the plane weighing, or on
>> another set of scales. Have them climb into each cockpit slowly and
>> carefully, make sure nothing moves on the scales, and record the weights in
>> both configurations. Again, later on you can reverse-calculate the moment
>> arm distances for passenger and pilot if you know what the person's weight
>> was and what the new readings are on your scales.
>>
>> You're done in the hangar. Probably another hour to do the weighing, but
>> if you did it carefully and remembered to record all the numbers, you'll
>> never have to do it again. You can do all of the above on a rainy or
>> wintry day when you don't have anything else to do, and of course you can
>> work out the formulas and W&B diagrams later on when you're at home and
>> comfortable.
>>
>> That should do it. No mystery vertical lines, and everything you have
>> will be useful at one time or another. I probably missed something along
>> the line, but I'm sure someone will chime in if I have.
>>
>> --------
>> Oscar Zuniga
>> Medford, OR
>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
>> A75 power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410118#410118
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Corvair College 27, Nov 8 - 10, Barnwell, SC
From: "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Well worth attending.
https://corvaircollege.wufoo.com/forms/corvair-college-27-registration/
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410128#410128
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Subject: Re: One bladed propeller
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Mike, You are partly correct.
Everel (the prop maker) states that the centrifugal effect cancels out the
bending moment and this blade not only moves but it also bends and that is
where most of the bending moment occurs. (is this true of a more simple
non pivoting blade?)
The main reason that the Everel prop pivots is that it makes it an
"automatic variable pitch type" prop. Basically when the aircraft is moving
slower (TO and climb) the prop goes to fine pitch for max RPM. As the
aircraft speeds up (cruise) the prop goes to coarse pitch for lower RPM and
faster cruise.
Here is a link that describes it very well.
http://www.ultraligero.net/Cursos/varios/helice_de_una_pala.pdf
IMHOBIKIAR The true efficiency of the Everel prop is in it's ability to
"pivot", thus making it varaiable pitch.
Some hombuilt fixed props claim to do the same with the materiels that they
use. Basically the prop flexes based upon air load. These are made for the
speedy homebuilts like the lancair and glassair.
Would a two bladed prop be built where both blades could mechanically pivot
like the Everel single blade?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Bkemike wrote:
> Steve,
> You're quite correct that a hard-mounted one-blade prop would put
> significant bending moments into the shaft...shades of crank-snapping
> Corvairs.
> You may not have noticed in the video that the one-blade prop is free to
> move fore and aft about an axis through the hub. This eliminates all the
> bending moments that a hard-mounted one-blade would produce.
> Mike Hardaway
>
> Scratched on an iPad with blunt instruments.
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:08 AM, Steve Emo wrote:
>
> wouldn't a one bladed prop side load the crankshaft/bearing? Putting a
> bending moment at the hub that isn't there with a two or more bladed
> design.
>
> The trailing blades don't get the clean air the leading blade had.
>
> Steve
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Steven Dortch
> wrote:
>
> WF2, Why was it not practical for everyday flying?
>
> Granted it is a more complex prop and would be more expensive to build.
> It would require more thought to make sure it was installed correctly.
> Once installed and setup, it has all the advantages of an adjustable prop
> without the additonal hardware and complexity.
>
> What are the wear issues?
>
> On my other list there is an aerodynamacyst and he has explaned the
> advantages of one blade. But quite simply, it is easier to build a two
> bladed fixed prop.
>
> On my Vtail it has a two bladed 88 inch prop. This is more efficient than
> the later and shorter 84 inch prop. Newer models have IO 550s (300HP) that
> all have 3 blade props. The 3 blade is less efficient, but shorter (less
> ground strikes) and quieter. Besides it looks "sexier".
>
> For a given HP about 1000 to 1300 RPM with a big bladed prop (fewer blades
> is better) is the most efficient. However, most engines make their HP at
> higher RPM.
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:42 PM, womenfly2 wrote:
>
>> >
>>
>> Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight
>> comparing a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard
>> to beat!
>>
>> Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but was
>> not practical for every day flying.
>>
>> Cool video!
>> WF2
>>
>> --------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007
>> s List Un/Subscription,
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ====
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> D============================================
> npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> D============================================
> //forums.matronics.com
> D============================================
> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> D============================================
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine out.. again
From: "bender" <jfaith(at)solairusaviation.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
I added some baffling to my carb heat muff. .. welded to the exhaust pipe.
Now I have a 55 rise in temp from ambient.
So I was seeing 120 in the inlet yesterday.
It made the mixture a bit rich. I'm going to run more and adjust the carb.
Anybody else know how much heat your making?
Jeff Faith
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410136#410136
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Felix For Sale
From: "TriScout" <apfelcyber(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
I tethered a piece of an old t-shirt to the cockpit combing w/a leather shoe lace..
http://youtu.be/fpkbuFpHOfo
--------
KLNC
A65-8
N2308C
AN Hardware
Airframe 724TT
W72CK-42 Sensenich
Standard Factory GN-1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410141#410141
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engine out.. again
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Jeff;
I'm not sure if you saw the carb icing probability graph that Gerry Holland posted,
but the temperature scale of the graph ends at 40*C, or 104*F. In fact,
the colored part of the graph (where icing is possible) doesn't even extend beyond
about 38*C or 100*F. It sounds like you've got a robust carb heat setup
now.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410147#410147
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Hey Guys,
As I sit out at the hangar (KCJR) it is a kinda miserable day all cloudy and its
drizzling. Gotta tell ya just dont care! The Culpeper Air Fest is this coming
Saturday. The war birds are starting to arrive. Many are getting in their
formation practice. Rumor has it we will have over 60 Texans on the ramp
and in the air on Saturday. Im throwing a Hangar Party all day (if your local
send me an email -- come on down !!!).
With all this talk about W&B, CG, Datum lines, and other such elusive mysteries,
I kinda feel like weve been around the barn and down the rabbit hole a bunch
of times. Some really great info and thoughts came out of all of this.
I totally lost focus on what started this. What started this ruckus was the discussions
about upgrading my tail wheel from the roller skate to an 8 Scott 3200.
There were thoughts on both sides pro and con. What stuck with me is that
the Scott 3200 weighs 6 pounds and the roller skate weights less than a pound.
Then there were thoughts expressed that Piets are typically tail heavy any
way and that adding 5 pounds more to the tail would be a big deal.
So I figured Id just do the math and see what the calculated effect of this additional
weight would be with respect to the CG. I knew that the Datum was key
to all of this
Then it was off to the races . Measuring stations and compiling data. I got so
wrapped up (Yes, I was having lots of fun!) in the process that I lost sight
of the goal. OMG I was up till ODark-Thirty still crunching numbers. Thankfully
my PC does an automatic shutdown forced me to go to bed.
Lots of folks chimed in with their Piet specific CG data. No two Piets had the
same data. The CG ranges were interesting. But, since no two Piets are built
exactly alike it just makes sense that the CG data would be different.
The Datum is arbitrary the Builder decides where he or she wants it to be . For
most Piets, but not all Piets - the Datum is the LE of the Wing. It turns
out that that might NOT be the case for my Piet. Page 1 of the plans used to
build Mr. Sam say that there is a mystery vertical line 9 ahead of the LE.
The Wing, Struts, and main gear are situated based on a specific distance from
this line. But thenIm guessing that this mystery line is the Datum. No one
wrote Datum and drew an arrow to this line. So technically . I still dont know.
As I mentioned before It was off to the races logic and reason be damned Im
gonna prove where my CG is Well if you look at the previous posts and attachments
you can see I had a lot of fun creating spreadsheets with pictures and arrows
all over the place just like Alices Restaurant. Oscar must be a lot like
me . I suspect he has a few pictures with arrows as well. His detailed instructions
on how to do the measure and weigh the Piet are incredibly well written
and spot on! Im gonna do just that. I even ordered two 550 pound bathroom
scales for less than $80 with shipping.
So with all of this hurry scurry and rustling of papers, quivers, and arrows .
I still dont know what the mathematical impact of adding 5 pounds to the tail
will be. I suppose I could just tie a 5 pound rock to the tail and ask Chuck
if he wants to go flying Wouldnt that be a hoot.
Truth: Mr. Sam flies well. I dont have any nose or tail heavy issues. Life is
good. Gonna go watch the war birds fly. I wonder.If I took off would they
join up on me in formation? Ha Ha Ha . Fat chance!
P.S. Gonna go with the Scott 2000 ...... No Sweat!!!
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410157#410157
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Jim
In regards to your mysterious 9.5 inches ahead of the wing on page 1 of your plans.
Measure the distance from the firewall to the bracket that holds the lower end
of the front cabain strut. If Mr. Sam is a long fuselage it should be about 16.25
inches, if its a short fuselage it would be about 14.25 inches. Im guessing
you may find Mike added 2 inches to the nose of the fuselage to help the weight
and balance.
Chris
--------
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestCoastPiet.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410163#410163
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Good luck, Jim!
FYI...I just changed my tailwheel design. Old tailwheel, with BHP A frame, weighed
about 4 lbs. New set up, with spring and 6" wheel weighs 9 lbs. The math says
that CG changed little.
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 9, 2013, at 1:05 PM, "Fun2av8" wrote:
>
>
> Hey Guys,
>
> As I sit out at the hangar (KCJR) it is a kinda miserable day all cloudy and
its drizzling. Gotta tell ya just dont care! The Culpeper Air Fest is this
coming Saturday. The war birds are starting to arrive. Many are getting in
their formation practice. Rumor has it we will have over 60 Texans on the ramp
and in the air on Saturday. Im throwing a Hangar Party all day (if your local
send me an email -- come on down !!!).
>
> With all this talk about W&B, CG, Datum lines, and other such elusive mysteries,
I kinda feel like weve been around the barn and down the rabbit hole a bunch
of times. Some really great info and thoughts came out of all of this.
>
> I totally lost focus on what started this. What started this ruckus was the
discussions about upgrading my tail wheel from the roller skate to an 8 Scott
3200. There were thoughts on both sides pro and con. What stuck with me is
that the Scott 3200 weighs 6 pounds and the roller skate weights less than a pound.
Then there were thoughts expressed that Piets are typically tail heavy
any way and that adding 5 pounds more to the tail would be a big deal.
>
> So I figured Id just do the math and see what the calculated effect of this additional
weight would be with respect to the CG. I knew that the Datum was key
to all of this
>
> Then it was off to the races . Measuring stations and compiling data. I got
so wrapped up (Yes, I was having lots of fun!) in the process that I lost sight
of the goal. OMG I was up till ODark-Thirty still crunching numbers. Thankfully
my PC does an automatic shutdown forced me to go to bed.
>
> Lots of folks chimed in with their Piet specific CG data. No two Piets had the
same data. The CG ranges were interesting. But, since no two Piets are built
exactly alike it just makes sense that the CG data would be different.
>
> The Datum is arbitrary the Builder decides where he or she wants it to be .
For most Piets, but not all Piets - the Datum is the LE of the Wing. It turns
out that that might NOT be the case for my Piet. Page 1 of the plans used to
build Mr. Sam say that there is a mystery vertical line 9 ahead of the LE.
The Wing, Struts, and main gear are situated based on a specific distance from
this line. But thenIm guessing that this mystery line is the Datum. No one
wrote Datum and drew an arrow to this line. So technically . I still dont know.
>
> As I mentioned before It was off to the races logic and reason be damned Im
gonna prove where my CG is Well if you look at the previous posts and attachments
you can see I had a lot of fun creating spreadsheets with pictures and
arrows all over the place just like Alices Restaurant. Oscar must be a lot
like me . I suspect he has a few pictures with arrows as well. His detailed instructions
on how to do the measure and weigh the Piet are incredibly well written
and spot on! Im gonna do just that. I even ordered two 550 pound bathroom
scales for less than $80 with shipping.
>
> So with all of this hurry scurry and rustling of papers, quivers, and arrows
. I still dont know what the mathematical impact of adding 5 pounds to the tail
will be. I suppose I could just tie a 5 pound rock to the tail and ask Chuck
if he wants to go flying Wouldnt that be a hoot.
>
> Truth: Mr. Sam flies well. I dont have any nose or tail heavy issues. Life
is good. Gonna go watch the war birds fly. I wonder.If I took off would
they join up on me in formation? Ha Ha Ha . Fat chance!
>
> P.S. Gonna go with the Scott 2000 ...... No Sweat!!!
>
> --------
> Jim McWhorter
> N687MB (New Owner)
> Culpeper, VA KCJR
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410157#410157
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Subject: webinar
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Just finished listening to the webinair on painting with Latex. paint. the
presenter was really good. Just a good old boy who followed along with how
he did it. I got a lot of good tips from it and am about ready to start.
After I finish some other projects.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB
From: "Fun2av8" <iflyga(at)fun2av8.com>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Thanks Gary.....Glad to hear it !!!!
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410180#410180
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Progress report
From: Rick <lmforge(at)earthlink.net>
Date: Oct 09, 2013
Well friends,
Here is a progress report that I hope is some inspiration for the rest of yo
u builders. I just finished the brush coats of primer on one of my wings tod
ay. I still need to do the other wing half, which I hope to finish tomorrow.
All of the rest of the airframe is finished through the brushed primer coat
s.
I plan on starting the final finish spray painting in the next week or so.
Rick Schreiber,
NX478RS
Valparaiso, IN
Sent from my iPad