Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-nj
March 22, 2014 - March 29, 2014
>
> Dan,
>
> Here is a positive suggestion:
>
> What don't you, Don and Mike Cuy, who all have flying planes that you
> like, Take a few minutes to walk out to your planes, get the weight and
> balance form out and type it in here, do I can all it to the data base we
> have for planes. Please include your axle and tailwheel location, and your
> pilot weight. If you guys like your planes, then share the data with
> everyone and let them directly copy your set up if they choose to. Brian
> sent in a lot of data, but I need to know the weights to put it in the
> data base.
>
> Jack Phillips sent me an email saying his plane is actually in the CG
> range with his pilot weight and set up, It is useful to others to pick
> which path to follow if we can get it in the data set.
>
> If you don't like the numerical information, just ignore it. A new builder
> doesn't need to understand every line that Chris and Brian wrote in. I
> will do the math for them, it is not an issue, I know you guys as pilots
> can do weight and balance calculations, don't make it sound hard to new
> guys, it is a simple format with 6th grade math. I don't think flying
> around out of CG adds to the romance of flight, nor do I see how having a
> better fuel line ruins every sunset flight.-ww.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420825#420825
>
>
>
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: running lean |
with carb heat off-the engine is fuel starving. carb heat changes that. n
ow how do you fix that?? overhaul the carb. im assuming that you have check
ed the mag timing..i had this problem on an o200 on my mong sport. I never
figured out what was wrong but sent the carb for overhaul. they found nothi
ng wrong but when I got the carb back and installed the motor ran great..so
if timing is good compression good fuel to the carb adequqte then that lea
ves the carb, if you put the plane in a level flight attitude does it make
a difference??=0A=0Ajim=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:28 PM, tai
ldrags wrote:=0A =0A--> Pietenpol-List message pos
ted by: "taildrags" =0A=0ATimed the fuel flow in the
3-point attitude today.- Filled a quart container in 21 seconds, so it's
not fuel flow.=0A=0AAdjusted the damper blade in the air box to shut tight
ly when carb heat is off, then warmed up the engine and ran it up.- It st
ill will not take throttle above 1500 RPM without carb heat on, and will no
t run up to full static power without it.- So it's not the carb heat box.
=0A=0AI'm thinking more and more that it's an obstructed passageway or some
thing in the carb.- I'm rebuilding a core Stromberg and when it's ready,
I'll swap it out with the one that's on the engine and we'll see if that's
it.- Meanwhile, I'm encouraged that the engine starts very readily and id
les well.- As soon as it's running right, it will be ready for annual.=0A
=0A--------=0AOscar Zuniga=0AMedford, OR=0AAir Camper NX41CC "Scout&qu
ot;=0AA75 power=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://foru
===============
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation |
Donna,
Please save this for me.
Your Lover!
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 22, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "Greg Cardinal" wrote:
>
> Attached is the spreadsheet I use for calculating CG on NX18235. It is an Excel
2007 file.
> I can enter any combination of weights and it spits out the CG location. Interesting
to see how little the CG changes with varying fuel and passenger weights.
>
> The numbers briefly:
> Empty wt. 616 lbs
> Cabanes angled back approx. 3 1/2" from vertical
> Axle located 6 1/2" aft of the leading edge. This works well, NX18235 was built
without brakes.
>
> It should be noted that this spreadsheet is unique for NX18235 only.
>
> Greg Cardinal
> Minneapolis
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:52 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation
>
>
>>
>> Dan,
>>
>> Here is a positive suggestion:
>>
>> What don't you, Don and Mike Cuy, who all have flying planes that you like,
Take a few minutes to walk out to your planes, get the weight and balance form
out and type it in here, do I can all it to the data base we have for planes.
Please include your axle and tailwheel location, and your pilot weight. If you
guys like your planes, then share the data with everyone and let them directly
copy your set up if they choose to. Brian sent in a lot of data, but I need
to know the weights to put it in the data base.
>>
>> Jack Phillips sent me an email saying his plane is actually in the CG range
with his pilot weight and set up, It is useful to others to pick which path to
follow if we can get it in the data set.
>>
>> If you don't like the numerical information, just ignore it. A new builder doesn't
need to understand every line that Chris and Brian wrote in. I will do
the math for them, it is not an issue, I know you guys as pilots can do weight
and balance calculations, don't make it sound hard to new guys, it is a simple
format with 6th grade math. I don't think flying around out of CG adds to the
romance of flight, nor do I see how having a better fuel line ruins every sunset
flight.-ww.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420825#420825
>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
> http://www.avast.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Jeep Pietenpol motor/ magneto |
| From: | "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net> |
I couldn't find a magneto conversion for my 134 jeep motor , so I have been converting
a omnix distributor base to match a slick mag. Actually I expected it
to be harder than it was, but after cleaning out the innards of the dist, I found
it had a nice arm with two dowel pins in place to mount the disk that matches
the magneto drive. Then I had to turn a sleeve that fit the distributor
case and also matches the magneto mounting ring. I plan to rivet the pieces ive
made together to keep them from shifting, then find a good aluminum tig welder
to weld it all up.
My engine is running smooth now with a totally worn out distributor and burnt
up points, so it should run great with a new mag .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420883#420883
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/magneto_1_337.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CG vs Wheels Location |
Ryan, I can't tell you what people think nor what they do, or do not unders
tand when they visit my site...sounds like you can. Impressive.=0A=0A- It
's disappointing that this thread has changed from building landing gear to
a debate on the quality/integrity of my DVDs.- Have you seen any of my D
VDs? I'm just curious because-you seem to-have a lot of negative things
to say about them.- I could be wrong, but it seems to me the only time y
ou reply to any of my posts is to belittle, condescend, or otherwise have o
ther than positive things to say. You've taken the time to review my websit
e and count the-thousands of-words that describe my DVDs.- You have a
lso taken the time to make note of the last 30 words on a particular paragr
aph and post them to the list. Plus, you have taken time to add up-the nu
mber of DVDs on the site, add up the cost and do some math to find a differ
ence in price between them and a set of plans. -Sounds like quite the eff
ort-just to make negative comments on a set of DVDs you have never seen.
That type of energy could be used in a positive manner. I'm surprised you
haven't talked bad about the site itself...the colors, the layout, the siz
e, etc. (maybe that's coming...)-Are you implying that because I have not
built an airplane before, that because I am- not an engineer and because
I am not a pilot, that I-therefor can't possibly have anything worth con
tributing? Therefor my entire DVD series has no good useful information in
them at all?--Uh-huh...=0A=0AI usually let things go, roll off my back.
I try to stay focused on the thread and stay respectful of others and what
they post. However, there are times and issues that I will not just sit-
idly by.=0A=0AI suggest rather than to further clutter up this list, anyon
e wishing to discuss this topic further, they should contact me directly. B
y phone would be the most productive. I am not looking for an argument, but
some 1V1 conversation may clear up some misconceptions.=0A=0AIf God is you
r co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol HINT Videos=0AKareta
ker Aero=0Ahttp://www.karetakeraero.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
Hey Gardiner,
You could add washers one by one to the jig until your mount tubes are
correctly spaced, or close. Then tack the thing together and remove it from
the jig. Bolt it onto the firewall and if you have to move some things
around a bit, just cut the tacks. Once it's bolted on, re-tack and add lots
of small tacks everywhere so it can't warp. You should then be able to
finish the welds away from the firewall easily. you could then conceivably
cover up the planes front-end with a welding blanket if you are tigging and
do a lot of the welds at that end of the mount. Or just make put lots of
tacks so it can't shift around and finish them off the plane.
If you're gas welding, you'll have to obviously be more careful about the
plane, but a welding tarp should protect it.
If you have a nose tank, or there's any fuel anywhere around, you shouldn't
try this technique.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CG vs Wheels Location |
| From: | Ryan Mueller <ryan(at)rmueller.org> |
Actually, it took more time reading your description of what I did than to
actually do it. I read your page selling the videos, the browser provided
the word count; you have a listing for your "Total Package", 8 for $170,
and Piet plans are $100. I'm not the arbiter of good taste, so I have
nothing to say about the design.
I am not implying that because you have never built an airplane before, are
not an engineer, or a pilot, you have nothing worth contributing, or that
your videos may not contain useful information. I am making a statement on
the incongruity of a person with those credentials marketing and selling
(at least on your website, Barnstormers, and in the BPA newsletter) an
extensive collection of "builder hints and step by step procedures" on how
to build a Pietenpol.
On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> Ryan, I can't tell you what people think nor what they do, or do not
> understand when they visit my site...sounds like you can. Impressive.
>
> It's disappointing that this thread has changed from building landing
> gear to a debate on the quality/integrity of my DVDs. Have you seen any of
> my DVDs? I'm just curious because you seem to have a lot of negative things
> to say about them. I could be wrong, but it seems to me the only time you
> reply to any of my posts is to belittle, condescend, or otherwise have
> other than positive things to say. You've taken the time to review my
> website and count the thousands of words that describe my DVDs. You have
> also taken the time to make note of the last 30 words on a particular
> paragraph and post them to the list. Plus, you have taken time to add
> up the number of DVDs on the site, add up the cost and do some math to find
> a difference in price between them and a set of plans. Sounds like quite
> the effort just to make negative comments on a set of DVDs you have never
> seen. That type of energy could be used in a positive manner. I'm surprised
> you haven't talked bad about the site itself...the colors, the layout, the
> size, etc. (maybe that's coming...) Are you implying that because I have
> not built an airplane before, that because I am not an engineer and
> because I am not a pilot, that I therefor can't possibly have anything
> worth contributing? Therefor my entire DVD series has no good useful
> information in them at all? Uh-huh...
>
> I usually let things go, roll off my back. I try to stay focused on the
> thread and stay respectful of others and what they post. However, there are
> times and issues that I will not just sit idly by.
>
> I suggest rather than to further clutter up this list, anyone wishing to
> discuss this topic further, they should contact me directly. By phone would
> be the most productive. I am not looking for an argument, but some 1V1
> conversation may clear up some misconceptions.
>
> Michael Perez
> Pietenpol HINT Videos
> Karetaker Aero
> http://www.karetakeraero.com/
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CG vs Wheels Location |
I think-the disconnect is that-my DVDs showcase how-I-am building
-MY plane, not how to build-THE plane.-If that is the way people perc
eive my website and ads in the BPA, etc. I need to address that.=0A=0AIf Go
d is your co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol HINT Videos
=0AKaretaker Aero=0Ahttp://www.karetakeraero.com/
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | W&B info to Ryan M. please |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Builders,
Here is a positive suggestion: All of you guys who would like to contribute your
data to the W&B project should read the original articles to understand the
format we used, and then send your data to Ryan by email and let him process it
in a way that allows your contribution to be read by a new guy as a continuation
of the original data set.
How we measured the length of a motor mount for example (firewall to prop flange)
and how we spoke in terms of distance from firewall to LE rather than inches
of rake on the cabanes. Is a little different, but Ryan and I came to this for
a reason after considering several systems. in most cases, you can take any
info set and put it in these terms with simple addition and subtraction. The
terminology that Ryan and I used comes into play, not when looking at one plane,
but it is very useful when teaching a new builder how to alter a close example
of a plane like his, to make his own plane suit his needs and goals. I thank
guys in advance for contributing and putting it in the helpful format.
A crucial element of our system is the computer algorithm (math formula) that Ryan
developed that quickly spits out the maximum pilot weight that the plane can
take before getting to the 20" aft limit. This is very importiant, because
if you are a 165 pound guy with a data set and your plane is flying at 18", it
is very hard for a 215 pound new guy to eyeball that and tell if he builds a
clone of the plane if he will be in CG. With Ryan's program, this is immediately
known. This is the single biggest reason for using the format.
I did not want the project to be a one time deal. The concept that set data set
can get bigger is good. Perhaps the additions can be published in the same format,
written up by Ryan for the newsletter? Ryan is friends with Mr. Hofman,
so this should work smoothly. There are a lot of people who get the newsletter
who are not on this list, and the new contributions would expand the knowledge
base and assist builders way into the future in the newsletters. It is a good
feeling to have contributed to something lasting, something that will help other
builders, many of whom you will never meet, but they will be thankful just
the same. -ww.
--------------------------------------------
This is the last post for a while, we are prepping 16 hours a day from here until
Corvair College #29, and then back to 10-12 a day until Brodhead. I hope to
see many of you there. Dan Weseman, the guy who designed and built the Corvair
powered Panther, on the cover of kitplanes last month, is my neighbor and said
he is planning on bringing the plane back to Brodhead just as he did last year.
I built the 3,000 cc Corvair in that plane, and you can see it flying aerobatics
on youtube. He picked up 24 orders for planes since Oshkosh, and the plane
and engine got rave reviews fro the editor of Kitplanes who flew it. It has
also got a lot of coverage by the EAA, and will be featured in lots of publications
this year. One of the reasons why I want to have the plane at Brodhead
is to get a shot of it with the last original, to connect the latest work with
Corvairs to BHP, the man that started it. I would like it to be formation air
to air. The Panther can do 165mph on the top, but with the flaps down it will
fly slower than a Piet.
Dan's Company SPA-LLC, which he tooled up to built the kit as a 100% made in North
America kit has been about 4 years in the making. He is not yet forty, but
has about $200,000 invested in the project, all his own family's money, none
borrowed. He purposely selected the Corvair as the best engine for the plane.
It will take others, be it was designed around the Corvair. Everyone who has seen
the plane fly thinks it was a very smart move.
I find it very ironic that experienced builders and industry people understand
the Corvair, but here, where people admire and build BHP airframe designed by
the man who started the entire world of flying Corvairs, there are still many
people who openly question if the engine can even be made to work. -ww.
-------------------------------------------------
Over and out from Mr. NOAC........(nails on a chalkboard)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420890#420890
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jeep Pietenpol motor/ magneto |
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
I know this is a simplistic question, but does the Jeep distributor turn the same
direction as the Slick mag?
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420891#420891
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Weight & Balance Spreadsheet |
Okay, Here is a spreadsheet that I developed to be able to compute weight &
balance for a generic Pietenpol. It requires the plane be completed, but it
can be used to determine when the wing has been moved back far enough. I
have input the values from my Pietenpol, so you will need to just type over
those values with the weights and measurement from your own airplane Input
values are red, calculated values are blue.
The procedure is pretty simple. All of the measurements are made using the
firewall as the datum, so you can make most of the measurements with the
tail on the ground, which is easier (and safer) than when the tail is
supported on a stool or sawhorse. The only measurements that must be made
with the plane in level flight attitude are the distance from the firewall
to the wing leading edge, and the distance from the firewall to the main
gear axle and tailwheel axle. For these three measurements you will need to
use a plumb bob and a tape measure. Strive for accuracy, because small
variations in distance can have a large effect.
You will to measure the distance to the middle of the fuel tank(s) which
must be estimated to some extent. You will also need to sit in the cockpit
and make note of where your belt buckle is (the belt buckle is very close to
the C.G. of a human body in a sitting position), then measure from there to
the firewall. Same for the front seat passenger (you will be surprised how
little a passenger affects the CG position). If you have a baggage
compartment and/or a helmet box, measure from the firewall to the center of
those spaces (or, if you really want to be conservative, measure to the back
of each of those compartments to get worst case).
You will need a good set of aircraft or race car scales. Bathroom scales
are worse than useless - most do not go up to 300 lbs and unless you have
built your airplane exceedingly light, your main gear wheels will weigh over
300 lbs eac. Besides, bathroom scales are notoriously inaccurate -
particularly at the extremes of their range. While building mine I weighed
it several times with digital electronic bathroom scales. My estimated
weight turned out to be within 80 lbs of my finished weight on aircraft
scales. You need better accuracy than that.
Position the plane in level flight attitude on the scales after setting the
tare to include the weight of any supports and chocks that are on the
scales. Enter the data in the spreadsheet and then input weights for pilot,
passenger, fuel and baggage. The spreadsheet will calculate the CG position
with respect to the firewall, the CG position with respect to the wing
leading edge, and the CG position as a percentage of Mean Aerodynamic Chord.
You can play around a bit, inputting different weights to see what effect
they have on the balance. You will have to do trial and error to find the
max weight pilot that will keep the CG ahead of 20" aft of the leading edge
- I don't have the fancy algorithm that Ryan and William put in their
program to determine this automatically.
This spreadsheet is in Excel 2003, so unless your software is even older
than mine, if you have Excel on your computer you should be able to use the
spreadsheet.
Good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions if it is not clear how to use
it.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance Spreadsheet |
As a lurker, and following along the weight and balance thread, it was
interesting to enter different configurations as discussed over the last
couple of days or so into your spreadsheet and then see the effect on
where the CG ends up. Needed to be doing something constructive, like
completing a cabinet making project, but I've just frittered away an
hour playing with the spread sheet! Very interesting and educational!
For example, moving the gear to the wing leading edge position changes
the CG to almost it's most forward recommended location as a percentage
of MAC. Likewise, moving the wing back 1 inch, moves the CG location
dramatically forward to 31.56 of the MAC.
This goes into my "keeper file" - Thanks, Jack
M. Haught
On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Jack Phillips wrote:
> Okay, Here is a spreadsheet that I developed to be able to compute
weight & balance for a generic Pietenpol. It requires the plane be
completed, but it can be used to determine when the wing has been moved
back far enough. I have input the values from my Pietenpol, so you will
need to just type over those values with the weights and measurement
from your own airplane Input values are red, calculated values are
blue.
>
> The procedure is pretty simple. All of the measurements are made
using the firewall as the datum, so you can make most of the
measurements with the tail on the ground, which is easier (and safer)
than when the tail is supported on a stool or sawhorse. The only
measurements that must be made with the plane in level flight attitude
are the distance from the firewall to the wing leading edge, and the
distance from the firewall to the main gear axle and tailwheel axle.
For these three measurements you will need to use a plumb bob and a tape
measure. Strive for accuracy, because small variations in distance can
have a large effect.
>
> You will to measure the distance to the middle of the fuel tank(s)
which must be estimated to some extent. You will also need to sit in
the cockpit and make note of where your belt buckle is (the belt buckle
is very close to the C.G. of a human body in a sitting position), then
measure from there to the firewall. Same for the front seat passenger
(you will be surprised how little a passenger affects the CG position).
If you have a baggage compartment and/or a helmet box, measure from the
firewall to the center of those spaces (or, if you really want to be
conservative, measure to the back of each of those compartments to get
worst case).
>
> You will need a good set of aircraft or race car scales. Bathroom
scales are worse than useless ' most do not go up to 300 lbs and
unless you have built your airplane exceedingly light, your main gear
wheels will weigh over 300 lbs eac. Besides, bathroom scales are
notoriously inaccurate ' particularly at the extremes of their range.
While building mine I weighed it several times with digital electronic
bathroom scales. My estimated weight turned out to be within 80 lbs of
my finished weight on aircraft scales. You need better accuracy than
that.
>
> Position the plane in level flight attitude on the scales after
setting the tare to include the weight of any supports and chocks that
are on the scales. Enter the data in the spreadsheet and then input
weights for pilot, passenger, fuel and baggage. The spreadsheet will
calculate the CG position with respect to the firewall, the CG position
with respect to the wing leading edge, and the CG position as a
percentage of Mean Aerodynamic Chord. You can play around a bit,
inputting different weights to see what effect they have on the balance.
You will have to do trial and error to find the max weight pilot that
will keep the CG ahead of 20=94 aft of the leading edge ' I don=92t
have the fancy algorithm that Ryan and William put in their program to
determine this automatically.
>
> This spreadsheet is in Excel 2003, so unless your software is even
older than mine, if you have Excel on your computer you should be able
to use the spreadsheet.
>
> Good luck and don=92t hesitate to ask questions if it is not clear how
to use it.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Jeep Pietenpol motor/ magneto |
| From: | "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net> |
Yes fortunately I found this new mag on ebay . it turns the right direction and
though it is a slick mag it was made for military 4 cyl motors for generators
and such. It would not be considered airworthy by the faa on a certified aircraft.
But my bet is it is just as good as the certified mag, since it had to
meet mil spec.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420896#420896
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: widening jig |
| From: | Gardiner Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com> |
Hey Douwe, I have been paying with it all day and I have decided to try your
way by loosing the jig and spreading the jig to where it will meet the fire
wall mounts. Then tack it into place while on the firewall then remove it to
finish welding. My Tig guy says he can do this. Cheers, Gardiner
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 23, 2014, at 10:25 AM, "Douwe Blumberg"
wrote:
> Hey Gardiner,
>
> You could add washers one by one to the jig until your mount tubes are cor
rectly spaced, or close. Then tack the thing together and remove it from th
e jig. Bolt it onto the firewall and if you have to move some things around
a bit, just cut the tacks. Once it=99s bolted on, re-tack and add lo
ts of small tacks everywhere so it can=99t warp. You should then be a
ble to finish the welds away from the firewall easily. you could then conce
ivably cover up the planes front-end with a welding blanket if you are tiggi
ng and do a lot of the welds at that end of the mount. Or just make put lot
s of tacks so it can=99t shift around and finish them off the plane.
>
>
> If you=99re gas welding, you=99ll have to obviously be more ca
reful about the plane, but a welding tarp should protect it.
>
> If you have a nose tank, or there=99s any fuel anywhere around, you s
houldn=99t try this technique.
>
> Douwe
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: widening jig |
| From: | "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com> |
Gardiner,
That sounds like it oughtta work. If you could, when you're done, just set it
back to the standard width for the next guy.
Good Luck!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420906#420906
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: widening jig |
| From: | Gardiner Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com> |
Don't worryDon. I am not going to alter the jig. Gardiner
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 23, 2014, at 8:08 PM, "Don Emch" wrote:
>
> Gardiner,
>
> That sounds like it oughtta work. If you could, when you're done, just set it
back to the standard width for the next guy.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420906#420906
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Motor mount fittings |
| From: | Keith <goffelectric(at)comcast.net> |
Great picture of this, thanks
Keith goff
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:24 PM, santiago morete wrote:
>
> Here is another idea
>
> Santiago
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance Spreadsheet |
| From: | "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com> |
Waaiiit a minute. Moving the location of the wheels should have very little, if
any, effect on CG. What DOES change, from a CG perspective, when you move the
wheels forward is the weight on the tail wheel. A couple of pounds increase
makes a large difference since the arm is so long and moving the wheels forward
increases it. Using Jack's spreadsheet, I added just 5 pounds to the tailwheel
weight and it moved the CG aft by 1 inch. That's 20% of the total allowable
range. A Scott 2000 tailwheel from a Piper Cub is about five pounds heavier
than an original BHP tail skid. As Jack, and others, have said, accurate
measurement is important. Bathroom scales are for my fat ass, not aircraft.
You have correctly noticed that moving the wing also has almost a 1 for 1 relationship
to CG. Moving the wing aft 1 inch moves the CG almost 1 inch forward
and is by far the most effective way of achieving a correctly balanced airplane.
That's one of the advantages of this design is that it's relatively easy to
do since the cabanes are equal length and parallel, more or less.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420910#420910
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance Spreadsheet |
| From: | Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Moving the axel only changes the weight on the tail while on the ground...not in
the air.
Gary
NX308MB
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:59 PM, "dgaldrich" wrote:
>
>
> Waaiiit a minute. Moving the location of the wheels should have very little,
if any, effect on CG. What DOES change, from a CG perspective, when you move
the wheels forward is the weight on the tail wheel. A couple of pounds increase
makes a large difference since the arm is so long and moving the wheels forward
increases it. Using Jack's spreadsheet, I added just 5 pounds to the tailwheel
weight and it moved the CG aft by 1 inch. That's 20% of the total allowable
range. A Scott 2000 tailwheel from a Piper Cub is about five pounds heavier
than an original BHP tail skid. As Jack, and others, have said, accurate
measurement is important. Bathroom scales are for my fat ass, not aircraft.
>
> You have correctly noticed that moving the wing also has almost a 1 for 1 relationship
to CG. Moving the wing aft 1 inch moves the CG almost 1 inch forward
and is by far the most effective way of achieving a correctly balanced airplane.
That's one of the advantages of this design is that it's relatively easy
to do since the cabanes are equal length and parallel, more or less.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420910#420910
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: A Couple of Welding Questions |
I have a Smith torch and I love it, and I feel the quality is as good as
any you can get.
--Mac in Oregon
>
>
> I have a couple of welding questions that I hope some of you can help me
> answer. Here is the situation - a friend of mine in my EAA Chapter has all
> of his now passed grandfather's tools (he was Mechanic at Delta Air Lines
> for over 35 years) My friend is building an RV-10 so he has little use for
> the welding equipment, so he has offered it to me. I have read some but
> have no one to really guide me on the following questions, so your help is
> appreciated.
>
> 1. The tanks have some level of Oxygen and Acetylene in them but the tanks
> have not been tested in who knows when (I have not really looked for the
> last date stamped onto them. Is it safe to use them ntl empty? Or should I
> take them in and swap them for other, newer, full tanks?
>
> 2. The hoses appear to be okay (no cracks), but I have not yet pressurized
> them and sprayed them with soapy water to check for any leaks. Should I
> just go ahead and buy new ones? I am guessing the hoses have been coiled
> up easily 6 or 8 years since last used.
>
> 3. The torch it self is a Smith and I have tip sizes 200, 203, and 205. I
> replaced the o-rings on the tips. Should I take the torches somewhere to
> have them inspected? Can they be rebuilt, if needed?
>
> 4. The regulator is the 2-stage type. Do I need to have them inspected as
> well? Can they be inspected and repaired if needed?
>
> Obviously, I am trying to ensure the equipment is in good working order
> before using them. Thanks for the advice.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
> USMC, USMCR, ATP
> BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420824#420824
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: W&B, Axle Loc., Cabanes and fuel lines |
| From: | "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil> |
Thank you, William. This post is an example of why you are one of two people I
ask for advice on aircraft building.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420917#420917
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Combustible lines |
| From: | "giacummo" <mario.giacummo(at)gmail.com> |
Hello,
Like allways asking for something... I build a wing tank, and I want to know if
the lines (from the tank to de gascolator) could be of rubber. I ask because
i never saw any one of this kind, all looks like aluminium. If there is a reason
why not to do it with rubber I will be very gratefull if someone can explain
me .
By the way.. this weekend I install the firewall with a ceramic fiber insulation
of 10mm.. It was a little bit gross in width, but it was the thinner I could
find. The firewall is a galvanizad sheet of 0.48 mm. It gave me a lot of work
because I put it with the engine in place, but after an hour of folding and unfolding
it stay in place ;o)
--------
Mario Giacummo
Photos here: http://goo.gl/wh7M4
Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420920#420920
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0181_413.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: [c-a] Attention eTech, Arduino, PLC, Glass panel, |
3D printers, tablet users
| From: | Patrick Panzera <editor(at)contactmagazine.com> |
Is your printer home made?
Pat
On Mar 23, 2014 6:19 AM, wrote:
>
>
> Thank you to all who responded to our survey!
> It appears there are a lot of us out there using or are interested
> in some of the emerging technology out there and are applying
> it to their airplane projects.
>
> Randi and I are the Engines Workshop co-chairs at Sun N Fun
> and they have approved our plan to test the waters for an
> Emerging Technology Uses Group; eTUG.
>
> Time is short but we hope to have a demo 3D printer running in
> the workshop, at the very least we will have sample 3D prints from
> an ongoing project of ours and prototypes of the project as well
> as an Arduino project under development.
>
> If you are coming to Sun N Fun, please stop by the workshop
> and say hello. Tell us about your interests and projects, better
> yet, bring them along.
> We will have our first in-formal meeting on Friday, April 4th at
> 10:00am in the Engines Workshop tent. Its an opportunity to get
> together, talk with others about your projects and ideas and let
> us know what you'd like to see in the future.
> If you have a project you'd like to bring or do a presentation, please
> contact us.
>
> www.EmergingTechnologyUsers.com was launched yesterday!
> Even if you cannot make it to Sun N Fun or Oshkosh please go there
> and join in, tell us about your aviation related eTech projects. We are
> hoping to see this grow into a lively and interesting community of
> aviation eTech geeks.
> Please be patient, the forum will have it's glitches at first and until
> we get some moderators in place who can devote the time to help
> this all run smoothly.
> If you have suggestions for sub-forums and topics,
> please let us know.
>
> And finally, if you are on the Velocity list, Van's list or other aviatio
n
> related list please forward this posting to help get the word out.
>
> Regards, Chrissi & Randi
> CG Products
> www.CozyGirrrl.com
> Sun N Fun Engine Workshop co-chairs
>
> __._,_.___
> Reply via web post Reply
> to sender
> Reply
> to group
> Start
> a New Topic Me
ssages
> in this topic(1)
> Visit Your Group
>
> - New Members
> 1
>
> [image: Yahoo! Groups]
> * Privacy *
> Unsubscribe* Terms
> of Use
> .
>
> __,_._,___
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Combustible lines |
Mario,
Reject rubber lines! Ultra-lite guys seem to use them a lot, but they are
often far close to the ground than most. You should only use hard aluminum,
or steel shrouded flexible lines (from wing to fuselage). Don't be
intimidated by manufacturing either of them, as they are easy...plus you
always have your friends on this list to coach you!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of giacummo
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 8:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Combustible lines
-->
Hello,
Like allways asking for something... I build a wing tank, and I want to know
if the lines (from the tank to de gascolator) could be of rubber. I ask
because i never saw any one of this kind, all looks like aluminium. If there
is a reason why not to do it with rubber I will be very gratefull if someone
can explain me .
By the way.. this weekend I install the firewall with a ceramic fiber
insulation of 10mm.. It was a little bit gross in width, but it was the
thinner I could find. The firewall is a galvanizad sheet of 0.48 mm. It gave
me a lot of work because I put it with the engine in place, but after an
hour of folding and unfolding it stay in place ;o)
--------
Mario Giacummo
Photos here: http://goo.gl/wh7M4
Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420920#420920
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0181_413.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. nose tanks on a Pietenpol?
Scott Knowlton-your new nose fuel tank looks great! Way to go.
Speaking of outdated items and things that could be considered unsafe or ob
solete----let us rethink Bernie's putting fuel up in the
wing right over the passenger and pilot in a Pietenpol. Is this wise?
Is it safe? Is there a better way to do this? YES! Just trying
to become a free thinker here and not tied to any dated ideas or products.
Now where are those old oatmeal containers for my new
wing leading edge?
Install your fuel tank in the nose.
- You don't have to get up on a ladder to fill the tank.
-You don't have to run long fuel lines to the firewall.
-You don't have to worry about spilling fuel into the cockpits if you over
fill the tank then smell it for the next 20 minutes into your ride or fligh
t.
-Your CG will benefit because Pietnepols are notoriously tail-heavy (espe
cially with our full-figured girl figures!)
-You can run a really short fuel line from the nose fuel tank to the gascol
ator---and in my case I used a flexible braided line which works fine.
-How much fuel CAN you really fit in that wing tank anyway??? Not much ri
ght? Comfortable for x-country?? Not really. Need a header or nose t
ank anyway? Usually.
-A nose tank (in my case I hold 17 gallons) can hold MUCH more fuel than a
Pietenpol center section tank.
-You can use that wing center section space for dry stuff won't leak out if
you crash like your sleeping bag, your pillow, some rags, a tent, your ti
e-downs, a few spare tools, quarts of spare oil.....
-The nose tank can be filled without a ladder or climbing up all over the a
irplane where you risk not only falling but damaging your airplane.
-in the event of an accident there will be no fuel overhead to spill onto y
ou or your passengers.
Bernie had lots of great ideas when he designed the Pietenpol and I admire
his design skills that still bring us the joy of simple, safe, economical f
light today but his center
section wing tank isn't one I would recommend.
Mike C.
Ohio
[cid:image001.jpg(at)01CF4759.7E0BFCD0]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. nose tanks on a Pietenpol?
I'm firmly in your camp Michael =2C if the engine installation allows it. I
wouldn't build one any other way.
From: michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel t
anks vs. nose tanks on a Pietenpol?
Date: Mon=2C 24 Mar 2014 16:06:32 +0000
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Scott Knowlton=97your new nose fuel tank looks great! Way to go. =0A
=0A
=0A
Speaking of outdated items and things that could be considered unsafe or ob
solete----let us rethink Bernie=92s putting fuel up in the=0A
wing right over the passenger and pilot in a Pietenpol. Is this wise?
Is it safe? Is there a better way to do this? YES! Just trying
=0A
to become a free thinker here and not tied to any dated ideas or products.
Now where are those old oatmeal containers for my new=0A
wing leading edge?=0A
=0A
Install your fuel tank in the nose. =0A
=0A
- You don=92t have to get up on a ladder to fill the tank.=0A
-You don=92t have to run long fuel lines to the firewall.=0A
-You don=92t have to worry about spilling fuel into the cockpits if you ov
erfill the tank then smell it for the next 20 minutes into your ride or fli
ght.=0A
-Your CG will benefit because Pietnepols are notoriously tail-heavy (espe
cially with our full-figured girl figures!)=0A
=0A
-You can run a really short fuel line from the nose fuel tank to the gascol
ator---and in my case I used a flexible braided line which works fine.=0A
=0A
-How much fuel CAN you really fit in that wing tank anyway??? Not much ri
ght? Comfortable for x-country?? Not really. Need a header or nose t
ank anyway? Usually. =0A
=0A
-A nose tank (in my case I hold 17 gallons) can hold MUCH more fuel than a
Pietenpol center section tank.=0A
=0A
-You can use that wing center section space for dry stuff won=92t leak out
if you crash like your sleeping bag=2C your pillow=2C some rags=2C a tent
=2C your tie-downs=2C a few spare tools=2C quarts of spare oil=85..=0A
-The nose tank can be filled without a ladder or climbing up all over the a
irplane where you risk not only falling but damaging your airplane.=0A
=0A
-in the event of an accident there will be no fuel overhead to spill onto y
ou or your passengers.=0A
=0A
=0A
Bernie had lots of great ideas when he designed the Pietenpol and I admire
his design skills that still bring us the joy of simple=2C safe=2C economic
al flight today but his center=0A
section wing tank isn=92t one I would recommend. =0A
=0A
Mike C.=0A
Ohio=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
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7UhO5Ceeh4JpxP3c5+YZzmmFyp5ye/WlZjz/ALPNPVWkQNvxn0FRnh2XPIHWjPf/AGc00SdP8aA5
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GeCe1Swjlj6cV//Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. nose tanks on a Pietenpol?
| From: | Lion Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com> |
Michael, I like your article on fuel tanks. My tank is in the center section
and is 20 gallons. It works great for my corvair but I am changing to a C
85, so how much head pressure do I need if I decide to install a nose tank?
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 24, 2014, at 12:06 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, L
LC]" wrote:
> Scott Knowlton=94your new nose fuel tank looks great! Way to go.
>
> Speaking of outdated items and things that could be considered unsafe or o
bsolete----let us rethink Bernie=99s putting fuel up in the
> wing right over the passenger and pilot in a Pietenpol. Is this wise?
Is it safe? Is there a better way to do this? YES! Just trying
> to become a free thinker here and not tied to any dated ideas or products.
Now where are those old oatmeal containers for my new
> wing leading edge?
>
> Install your fuel tank in the nose.
>
> - You don=99t have to get up on a ladder to fill the tank.
> -You don=99t have to run long fuel lines to the firewall.
> -You don=99t have to worry about spilling fuel into the cockpits if
you overfill the tank then smell it for the next 20 minutes into your ride o
r flight.
> -Your CG will benefit because Pietnepols are notoriously tail-heavy (esp
ecially with our full-figured girl figures!)
> -You can run a really short fuel line from the nose fuel tank to the gasco
lator---and in my case I used a flexible braided line which works fine.
> -How much fuel CAN you really fit in that wing tank anyway??? Not much r
ight? Comfortable for x-country?? Not really. Need a header or nose t
ank anyway? Usually.
> -A nose tank (in my case I hold 17 gallons) can hold MUCH more fuel than a
Pietenpol center section tank.
> -You can use that wing center section space for dry stuff won=99t le
ak out if you crash like your sleeping bag, your pillow, some rags, a tent,
your tie-downs, a few spare tools, quarts of spare oil..
> -The nose tank can be filled without a ladder or climbing up all over the a
irplane where you risk not only falling but damaging your airplane.
> -in the event of an accident there will be no fuel overhead to spill onto y
ou or your passengers.
>
> Bernie had lots of great ideas when he designed the Pietenpol and I admire
his design skills that still bring us the joy of simple, safe, economical f
light today but his center
> section wing tank isn=99t one I would recommend.
>
> Mike C.
> Ohio
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Combustible lines |
There is another discussion starting suggesting that the fuselage is the ri
ght place for the tank. Please read that.
Rubber hoses are still in the mainstream of certified aircraft. They are re
liable and easy to purchase but be sure you get the right type.
Adding the term combustible to your question opens a huge can of worms. It
is a question with no correct answer and many=2C many=2C opinions as no one
wants to be killed by a post crash inferno .
Is it as important to prevent a fire or stop the spread of a fire? If you a
chieve the first then the second becomes less important. For example many p
eople think firewalls are designed to slow the spread of a fire - I don't b
elieve that is true because it won't work. There are there to prevent a fir
e from an exhaust leak. So expanding on this concept design a fuel system t
o try to prevent a fire first.
Here is the safest fire system that I can conceive of. I know no one with
this so it tells you that compromises are the order of the day. The tank s
hould be in the strongest part of the airplane. That is likely the forward
fuselage. The tank should be made of a flexile material such as used in rac
ing fuel cells. There should be a holding cage (tank) and there should be n
o sharp items near. Note that fuel cell are combustible but in a crash the
tank likely won't brake apart. In a fire even aluminum will melt. If stress
ed aluminum will break.
The lines too should be short as possible and flexible. Internal metal bell
ows lines are large and expensive but are probably the best. Rubber hoses w
ith wire reinforcement=2C internal or external are likely nearly just as go
od.
Many Van's RV owners believe that fuel in the wings are safer that fuel in
the fuselage. Unfortunately this is not true and wings are fragile and the
fuel is still close enough to be a problem.
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Combustible lines
> From: mario.giacummo(at)gmail.com
> Date: Mon=2C 24 Mar 2014 08:02:23 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
m>
>
> Hello=2C
>
> Like allways asking for something... I build a wing tank=2C and I want to
know if the lines (from the tank to de gascolator) could be of rubber. I a
sk because i never saw any one of this kind=2C all looks like aluminium. If
there is a reason why not to do it with rubber I will be very gratefull if
someone can explain me .
>
> By the way.. this weekend I install the firewall with a ceramic fiber ins
ulation of 10mm.. It was a little bit gross in width=2C but it was the thin
ner I could find. The firewall is a galvanizad sheet of 0.48 mm. It gave me
a lot of work because I put it with the engine in place=2C but after an ho
ur of folding and unfolding it stay in place =3Bo)
>
> --------
> Mario Giacummo
> Photos here: http://goo.gl/wh7M4
> Little Blog : http://vgmk1.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420920#420920
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0181_413.jpg
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Combustible lines |
The firewall cannot 'stop' the spread of a fire. But it may slow the fire i
n the engine compartment for a long enough time for you to get on the groun
d before all the good pieces are consumed. Maybe not=2C especially in a woo
d-and-fabric plane. 'Can't hurt=2C might help' to take your best shot at it
=2C though.
Good food for thought.
Lorenzo
From: brian.kenney(at)live.ca
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Combustible lines
Date: Mon=2C 24 Mar 2014 12:46:03 -0400
=0A
=0A
=0A
There is another discussion starting suggesting that the fuselage is the ri
ght place for the tank. Please read that.
Rubber hoses are still in the mainstream of certified aircraft. They are re
liable and easy to purchase but be sure you get the right type.
Adding the term combustible to your question opens a huge can of worms. It
is a question with no correct answer and many=2C many=2C opinions as no one
wants to be killed by a post crash inferno .
Is it as important to prevent a fire or stop the spread of a fire? If you a
chieve the first then the second becomes less important. For example many p
eople think firewalls are designed to slow the spread of a fire - I don't b
elieve that is true because it won't work. There are there to prevent a fir
e from an exhaust leak. So expanding on this concept design a fuel system t
o try to prevent a fire first.
Here is the safest fire system that I can conceive of. I know no one with
this so it tells you that compromises are the order of the day. The tank s
hould be in the strongest part of the airplane. That is likely the forward
fuselage. The tank should be made of a flexile material such as used in rac
ing fuel cells. There should be a holding cage (tank) and there should be n
o sharp items near. Note that fuel cell are combustible but in a crash the
tank likely won't brake apart. In a fire even aluminum will melt. If stress
ed aluminum will break.
The lines too should be short as possible and flexible. Internal metal bell
ows lines are large and expensive but are probably the best. Rubber hoses w
ith wire reinforcement=2C internal or external are likely nearly just as go
od.
Many Van's RV owners believe that fuel in the wings are safer that fuel in
the fuselage. Unfortunately this is not true and wings are fragile and the
fuel is still close enough to be a problem.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
============0A
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Steel-tube fuselage update - landing gear welded |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Hello good Piet-ple,
Hope the sun was shining where you live. It was sure shining in Seattle the past
few days...! [Rain for the next week however :-( ]
Mike from "ready Weld" made another visit and performed more of his craftsmanship
magic.
FYI my axle was moved 3 1/2" forward - to move the CG of the plane forward and
make the plane less likely to nose-over. (Hey, wasn't that topic discussed on
this message board recently...??) THANK YOU ALL for bringing that information
up for discussion.
THE FUSELAGE FRAME IS NOT YET COMPLETE - AS I WILL BE ADDING AN ADDITIONAL CROSS-PIECE
BETWEEN THE WING STRUTS. (Several owners have had the cross piece fail
in compression - so this additional structure NEEDS TO BE ADDED in order to prevent
this situation.) I had cut the cross-piece tubing but since Mike had already
put in almost 12 hours we decided to weld them in next time.........
I tried to take photos from angles that would be helpful.
Please note that I have not yet completed or flown this plane so do not take any
of this info as proven...(!)
Hope all of you are enjoying YOUR Pietenpol adventures/journeys...!!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420937#420937
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lg_1_359.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lg_2_126.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lg_3_212.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lg_4_507.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lg_5_145.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
I have a C-85 with a nose and center section tank. 10 in the nose and 12.5 in the
center section. The carb on the cont engines are the lowest point of the engine.
I have 3/8 fueline and the bottom of my nose tank is about 14 inches above
the floorboards. This arrangement has worked very well on my plane for 42 years
as well as J3 cubs. The pressure is not as important as the fuel flow. Put
your plane at what you believe is maximum climb angle and do a timed measure
fuel rate test. My plane can burn as much as 5.8 gallons per hour. Based on that
number you will want to see a fuel delivery rate at 8.7 GPH. That is 1.5 times
the 5.8 GPH I can burn. Good luck. You should not have any issues.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420949#420949
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
Thanks for bringing this up. I don't consider it as bringing up outdated ideas
as much as a discussion of risk management. And discussing risk management is
never a bad thing. I have no dog in this hunt as I have yet to decide on fuel
tank position. I lean toward the Center Section tank, but am open to either location.
So here are my questions for people smarter than I to answer-
1. Maybe Jack or Ryan can chime in here since it is a CG question. How much movement
of the CG would occur with a 200 pound pilot (I know I am not FAA-sized)
in the "average" Pietenpol (yes, I know there is no such creature, but you know
what I am asking), if there was a 17 gallon fuel tank in the normal nose tank
location. What would the change be from full (~17 gallons) to reserve (say,
3-4 gallons remaining) to completely empty? I realize the center section tank
has much less effect on CG.
My point in asking the question is this. In terms of risk management, how many
guys have had incidents involving takeoff or landing out of CG range, as opposed
to guys that have landed and the center section gave way? are we creating one
risk management issue (flying out of CG range) by trying to prevent another
one (the chance of fuel leak/spill in the event of a crash)?
2. This is a tough one to ask, but I will ask it. Kevin Purtee is the only guy
I know personally that has had an accident in his Pietenpol. We all have heard
his story, and I appreciate his sharing. I would ask him to share one more time.
Kevin, do you think that your accident would have had any better or worse
outcome had you had a nose tank instead of a wing tank? What tank are you building
this time? Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.
3. We have had quite a discussion lately on the wisdom of braided fuel lines over
hard lines from the center section, so let me add one more thought for discussion
of risk management. What about adding breakaway fuel fittings between the
center section tank and the braided fuel line that would shutoff in the event
the lines tore away in an accident? Race cars have them. We had them on our
helicopters when I was in the Marine Corps. Anyone want to chime in on the use
of such fittings? Don't tell me they are too expensive as , most likely, only
one or two would be needed.
4. Does anyone know which tank Mr. Pietenpol flew with most often? Just curious.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420951#420951
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Terry,
I forgot to mention that my engine gets 100% of its fuel from the nose tank. When
on a cross country flight I use the center section for the additional fuel.
As I burn the fuel from the nose, I refill it from the center section tank through
a shut off valve. Just like many other airplanes do.
Yes there is a large change in cg if running only a nose tank. I try to keep my
nose tank as fuel as I can by draining the CS into it. I weigh 225lbs. I do have
a different wing but my cg range is nearly the same as the Piet wing. The
wing tank certainly helps with cg management. My cabains are verticle and I have
the long fuse.
As far as which tank is safer??? I guess it would depend on how you crash it and
if there is a passenger on board. You could get super crazy and build your tank
like a race car with foam inside. Just saying. You will need to decide what
risks you are willing to take. I would build mine the same way again.
Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420953#420953
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Good info, Scott. Thanks!
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420954#420954
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <catdesigns(at)att.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Terry
William Wynne also had a bad crash in his Pietenpol. He speaks from
experience and true desire to keep us safe. I know I am listening.
>From http://www.flycorvair.com/carbice.html
"William Wynne was the passenger in his Corvair powered Pietenpol when it
crashed north of Tampa, Florida, on July 14, 2001. The engine cut off at
700' AGL, which gave only 60 seconds to attempt a restart and execute a
forced landing. To avoid people on the ground, the pilot tried a sharp bank
and the plane spun in from 80'. The impact destroyed the airframe.
When freeing the trapped pilot, a fire started and ignited William's
fuel-soaked clothes. While extensively burned, both William and the pilot
survived the accident. An investigation into the engine stoppage has
indicated that carb ice almost certainly was the cause. Because a few of
the engine components were incinerated in the fire, no one will ever be able
to say with 100% certainty that carb ice was the cause. The engine was
recovered from a wrecking yard where it sat for months, placed on a test
stand, and runs well. The remaining wreckage was examined very closely and
no evidence of any kind of failure was found. "
His advice on what design element was wrong is here.
http://flycorvair.net/2013/12/19/pietenpol-fuel-lines-and-cabanes/
http://flycorvair.net/2013/12/20/fuel-lines-and-cabanes-part-2/
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Westcoastpiet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jarheadpilot82
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 3:52 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel
tanks vs. n
-->
Mike,
Thanks for bringing this up. I don't consider it as bringing up outdated
ideas as much as a discussion of risk management. And discussing risk
management is never a bad thing. I have no dog in this hunt as I have yet to
decide on fuel tank position. I lean toward the Center Section tank, but am
open to either location. So here are my questions for people smarter than I
to answer-
1. Maybe Jack or Ryan can chime in here since it is a CG question. How much
movement of the CG would occur with a 200 pound pilot (I know I am not
FAA-sized) in the "average" Pietenpol (yes, I know there is no such
creature, but you know what I am asking), if there was a 17 gallon fuel tank
in the normal nose tank location. What would the change be from full (~17
gallons) to reserve (say, 3-4 gallons remaining) to completely empty? I
realize the center section tank has much less effect on CG.
My point in asking the question is this. In terms of risk management, how
many guys have had incidents involving takeoff or landing out of CG range,
as opposed to guys that have landed and the center section gave way? are we
creating one risk management issue (flying out of CG range) by trying to
prevent another one (the chance of fuel leak/spill in the event of a crash)?
2. This is a tough one to ask, but I will ask it. Kevin Purtee is the only
guy I know personally that has had an accident in his Pietenpol. We all have
heard his story, and I appreciate his sharing. I would ask him to share one
more time. Kevin, do you think that your accident would have had any better
or worse outcome had you had a nose tank instead of a wing tank? What tank
are you building this time? Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.
3. We have had quite a discussion lately on the wisdom of braided fuel lines
over hard lines from the center section, so let me add one more thought for
discussion of risk management. What about adding breakaway fuel fittings
between the center section tank and the braided fuel line that would shutoff
in the event the lines tore away in an accident? Race cars have them. We had
them on our helicopters when I was in the Marine Corps. Anyone want to chime
in on the use of such fittings? Don't tell me they are too expensive as ,
most likely, only one or two would be needed.
4. Does anyone know which tank Mr. Pietenpol flew with most often? Just
curious.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420951#420951
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Terry, you can see the effects of what you are asking using the spreadsheet
I posted yesterday. If you just swap the values for the fuel tank and the
baggage compartment for my airplane (the data that I sent in the
spreadsheet) you can see pretty closely what the effects would be, if it
were my airplane.
I just did that - swapping the 90 lbs of fuel from the centersection tank to
the baggage compartment, and taking the fuel tank weight to 0.00. With 90
lbs (15 gallons) of fuel in the nose, the CG with my 195 lb butt in the rear
seat would move from 19.94" to 17.71" aft of the leading edge. Very Nice!
However, when you are down to 2.5 gallons of fuel (15 lbs) the CG goes back
to 19.42" - nearly a 2" shift. I suspect you will need a trim system of
some sort otherwise you are going to be constantly pushing on the stick to
keep the nose down (f the plane was trimmed to fly straight and level with a
full tank). If you are flying near empty and for whatever reason you take
your hand off the stick, the nose will want to pitch up which could get very
interesting if you were already flying close to a stall.
With the centersection tank, the situation is reversed, but the change is
slight. Again, with the data from my airplane, with my 195 lbs of Macho,
Pietenpol Aviator sitting comfortably in the rear seat, with 90 lbs of fuel
on board and no baggage in the nose, my CG is hovering around the dreaded
20" barrier at 19.94" aft of the Leading edge (one reason I generally carry
about 5 lbs of stuff in the baggage compartment). If I burn all but 2.5
gallons from my tank, the CG moves to 19.83", or just over a tenth of an
inch, and in the direction that if I take my hand off the stick, the nose
will go down, not up.
I like my centersection fuel tank. I never have to worry that an extreme
noseup attitude might starve the fuel supply, and I have a large enough
baggage compartment to hold a tent and sleeping bag (a true "Air Camper").
The only worry is the possibility of a shifting centersection in a crash
causing fuel leakage. When I recover my airplane (hopefully not for several
more years) I will put in braided flexible fuel lines. I have had one
forced landing which caused substantial damage to the airframe, including
dragging a wingtip in the ensuing groundloop when the axle broke, without
causing any shift of the centersection or damage to the fuel lines. I was
lucky.
In Kevin Purtee's crash, those on the scene reported a large fuel leak due
to the ruptured fuel tank. There was no fire. Kevin was lucky. There was
nothing left of the fuselage forward of the rear cockpit, so I don't think
you could say a nose tank would have fared better.
This is one of those decisions in building a Pietenpol that every builder
needs to make for himself, based on facts and information, and how he wants
to build and fly his airplane. There is no right or wrong answer. Just try
to make an informed choice.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jarheadpilot82
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 6:52 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel
tanks vs. n
Mike,
Thanks for bringing this up. I don't consider it as bringing up outdated
ideas as much as a discussion of risk management. And discussing risk
management is never a bad thing. I have no dog in this hunt as I have yet to
decide on fuel tank position. I lean toward the Center Section tank, but am
open to either location. So here are my questions for people smarter than I
to answer-
1. Maybe Jack or Ryan can chime in here since it is a CG question. How much
movement of the CG would occur with a 200 pound pilot (I know I am not
FAA-sized) in the "average" Pietenpol (yes, I know there is no such
creature, but you know what I am asking), if there was a 17 gallon fuel tank
in the normal nose tank location. What would the change be from full (~17
gallons) to reserve (say, 3-4 gallons remaining) to completely empty? I
realize the center section tank has much less effect on CG.
My point in asking the question is this. In terms of risk management, how
many guys have had incidents involving takeoff or landing out of CG range,
as opposed to guys that have landed and the center section gave way? are we
creating one risk management issue (flying out of CG range) by trying to
prevent another one (the chance of fuel leak/spill in the event of a crash)?
2. This is a tough one to ask, but I will ask it. Kevin Purtee is the only
guy I know personally that has had an accident in his Pietenpol. We all have
heard his story, and I appreciate his sharing. I would ask him to share one
more time. Kevin, do you think that your accident would have had any better
or worse outcome had you had a nose tank instead of a wing tank? What tank
are you building this time? Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.
3. We have had quite a discussion lately on the wisdom of braided fuel lines
over hard lines from the center section, so let me add one more thought for
discussion of risk management. What about adding breakaway fuel fittings
between the center section tank and the braided fuel line that would shutoff
in the event the lines tore away in an accident? Race cars have them. We had
them on our helicopters when I was in the Marine Corps. Anyone want to chime
in on the use of such fittings? Don't tell me they are too expensive as ,
most likely, only one or two would be needed.
4. Does anyone know which tank Mr. Pietenpol flew with most often? Just
curious.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420951#420951
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Chris,
You are absolutely right. William is the first guy I know that had an accident
in his Pietenpol. Kevin is the second.
My point was that Kevin is rebuilding his aircraft, so I was wondering what his
thoughts were in the rebuild - what, if any changes he would make in the area
of his fuel tank. Did he feel it made any difference as t the cause or outcome.
Or none at all.
I have read William's postings about fuel lines and cabanes. In fact, I put a link
on this forum right after he wrote those two postings, as I thought they had
value for all of us Pietenpol builders and flyers alike.
Thanks for reminding me.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420959#420959
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Jack,
Thanks for doing the leg work with the spreadsheet. I was hoping you would, so
that people who have not downloaded it, wold still get the info. Thanks.
My point of the questions is exactly as you put it. I am not convinced that either
is better than the other. They both have their risk management issues. I think
that the point should be this - make your decision based on an informed analysis,
and not because one looks better than the other, or some other less informed
reason.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420960#420960
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
I have a 17 US gal forward tank and the change in the fuel load from full t
o reserve changes the trim from slightly nose up required at full fuel to
a slightly nose down requirement at minimum fuel. I don't have a trim and t
he forces are not significant in either direction. Where it starts and ends
depends of course where you start. I try not to have a lot more fuel on b
oard when I don't need it. Trim is also speed dependant. You can counter so
me of this trim change with a power adjustment. I have flown for 2 and 3/4
hours a couple of times. The lack of a trim was not a factor.
While the trim changes less in the center section it is always in the wrong
place if you have a light engine and there is more weight or moment needed
on the front to counter it. So like everything there is a compromise invo
lved.
From: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section
fuel tanks vs. n
Date: Mon=2C 24 Mar 2014 20:43:48 -0400
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Terry=2C=0A
you can see the effects of what you are asking using the spreadsheet I post
ed=0A
yesterday. If you just swap the values for the fuel tank and the baggage
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compartment for my airplane (the data that I sent in the spreadsheet) you c
an=0A
see pretty closely what the effects would be=2C if it were my airplane.=0A
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I=0A
just did that - swapping the 90 lbs of fuel from the centersection tank to
the=0A
baggage compartment=2C and taking the fuel tank weight to 0.00. With 90 lb
s=0A
(15 gallons) of fuel in the nose=2C the CG with my 195 lb butt in the rear
seat=0A
would move from 19.94" to 17.71" aft of the leading edge. Very=0A
Nice! However=2C when you are down to 2.5 gallons of fuel (15 lbs) the CG
=0A
goes back to 19.42" - nearly a 2" shift. I suspect you will=0A
need a trim system of some sort otherwise you are going to be constantly=0A
pushing on the stick to keep the nose down (f the plane was trimmed to fly
=0A
straight and level with a full tank). If you are flying near empty and=0A
for whatever reason you take your hand off the stick=2C the nose will want
to=0A
pitch up which could get very interesting if you were already flying close
to a=0A
stall.=0A
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=0A
With=0A
the centersection tank=2C the situation is reversed=2C but the change is sl
ight. =0A
Again=2C with the data from my airplane=2C with my 195 lbs of Macho=2C Piet
enpol=0A
Aviator sitting comfortably in the rear seat=2C with 90 lbs of fuel on boar
d and=0A
no baggage in the nose=2C my CG is hovering around the dreaded 20" barrier
=0A
at 19.94" aft of the Leading edge (one reason I generally carry about 5=0A
lbs of stuff in the baggage compartment). If I burn all but 2.5 gallons fr
om=0A
my tank=2C the CG moves to 19.83"=2C or just over a tenth of an inch=2C and
in=0A
the direction that if I take my hand off the stick=2C the nose will go down
=2C not=0A
up.=0A
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I=0A
like my centersection fuel tank. I never have to worry that an extreme=0A
noseup attitude might starve the fuel supply=2C and I have a large enough b
aggage=0A
compartment to hold a tent and sleeping bag (a true "Air=0A
Camper"). The only worry is the possibility of a shifting=0A
centersection in a crash causing fuel leakage. When I recover my airplane
=0A
(hopefully not for several more years) I will put in braided flexible fuel
=0A
lines. I have had one forced landing which caused substantial damage to=0A
the airframe=2C including dragging a wingtip in the ensuing groundloop when
the=0A
axle broke=2C without causing any shift of the centersection or damage to t
he=0A
fuel lines. I was lucky. =0A
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In=0A
Kevin Purtee's crash=2C those on the scene reported a large fuel leak due t
o the=0A
ruptured fuel tank. There was no fire. Kevin was lucky. There=0A
was nothing left of the fuselage forward of the rear cockpit=2C so I don't
think=0A
you could say a nose tank would have fared better.=0A
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=0A
This=0A
is one of those decisions in building a Pietenpol that every builder needs
to=0A
make for himself=2C based on facts and information=2C and how he wants to b
uild and=0A
fly his airplane. There is no right or wrong answer. Just try to=0A
make an informed choice.=0A
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Jack=0A
Phillips=0A
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NX899JP=0A
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Smith Mountain Lake=2C=0A
Virginia=0A
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-----Original=0A
Message-----
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From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com=0A
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jarheadpilo
t82
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Sent: Monday=2C March 24=2C 2014 6:52 PM
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Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fue
l=0A
tanks vs. n=0A
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-->=0A
Pietenpol-List message posted by: "jarheadpilot82"=0A
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Mike=2C=0A
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Thanks=0A
for bringing this up. I don't consider it as bringing up outdated ideas as
much=0A
as a discussion of risk management. And discussing risk management is never
a=0A
bad thing. I have no dog in this hunt as I have yet to decide on fuel tank
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position. I lean toward the Center Section tank=2C but am open to either=0A
location. So here are my questions for people smarter than I to answer-=0A
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1.=0A
Maybe Jack or Ryan can chime in here since it is a CG question. How much=0A
movement of the CG would occur with a 200 pound pilot (I know I am not=0A
FAA-sized) in the "average" Pietenpol (yes=2C I know there is no such=0A
creature=2C but you know what I am asking)=2C if there was a 17 gallon fuel
tank in=0A
the normal nose tank location. What would the change be from full (~17 gall
ons)=0A
to reserve (say=2C 3-4 gallons remaining) to completely empty? I realize th
e=0A
center section tank has much less effect on CG.=0A
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My=0A
point in asking the question is this. In terms of risk management=2C how ma
ny=0A
guys have had incidents involving takeoff or landing out of CG range=2C as
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opposed to guys that have landed and the center section gave way? are we=0A
creating one risk management issue (flying out of CG range) by trying to=0A
prevent another one (the chance of fuel leak/spill in the event of a crash)
?=0A
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2.=0A
This is a tough one to ask=2C but I will ask it. Kevin Purtee is the only g
uy I=0A
know personally that has had an accident in his Pietenpol. We all have hear
d=0A
his story=2C and I appreciate his sharing. I would ask him to share one mor
e=0A
time. Kevin=2C do you think that your accident would have had any better or
worse=0A
outcome had you had a nose tank instead of a wing tank? What tank are you
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building this time? Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.=0A
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3.=0A
We have had quite a discussion lately on the wisdom of braided fuel lines o
ver=0A
hard lines from the center section=2C so let me add one more thought for=0A
discussion of risk management. What about adding breakaway fuel fittings=0A
between the center section tank and the braided fuel line that would shutof
f in=0A
the event the lines tore away in an accident? Race cars have them. We had t
hem=0A
on our helicopters when I was in the Marine Corps. Anyone want to chime in
on=0A
the use of such fittings? Don't tell me they are too expensive as =2C most
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likely=2C only one or two would be needed.=0A
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4.=0A
Does anyone know which tank Mr. Pietenpol flew with most often? Just curiou
s.=0A
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Semper=0A
Fi=2C=0A
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Terry=0A
Hand=0A
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Athens=2C GA=0A
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USMC=2C=0A
USMCR=2C ATP=0A
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BVD=0A
DVD PDQ BBQ=0A
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Read=0A
this topic online here:=0A
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420951#420951=0A
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Terry,
My centersection tank is a Cessna 140 wing tank. It fit because I have a cub airfoil
which is thicker than the Piet wing. I do like what the guys are doing with
the moth style tank. It looks cool and you can carry all the fuel you may
require for a decent cross country. Also keeps it on the cg. Way cool.
My nose tank is not aluminum. Frankly I don't remember what it is made of. Last
time I had it out was in 2000. It did however come out of an Opal Kadet car from
the early 1970's. Was a perfect fit after moving the filler neck from the
side to the top.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420965#420965
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Corky's Miss Isabelle |
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Some of you may not know Claude "Corky" Corbett, but he's the gentleman from Shreveport,
LA who completed and flew my airplane, NX41CC, before selling it to
me. His email address for as long as I've known him or seen his posts has been
Isablcorky(at)aol.com , with the first part of that being his wife Isabelle's name.
These last few years, she has been in a nursing home and Corky has been
living by himself in a little place in the country. I just had news from him
that Isabelle died on Sunday morning, March 23.
Just thought I would pass this along to anyone who knows Corky and might care to
send condolences his way. By the way, Corky was a builder who didn't waste
a lot of time on theoretical matters or clever innovations. He built 41CC light,
simple, and very deliberately. He completed the paperwork, W&B, and testing-
and then hit a brick wall when the FAA dragged its heels for years before
passing the Sport Pilot rule that would have permitted him to continue flying
without a medical. He decided that the rule would never pass, sold the airplane
to me, and then the rule passed shortly after that. I always felt like I took
his airplane away, but have tried to make the most of being its steward since
then.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420968#420968
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel-tube fuselage update - landing gear welded |
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Jake;
Would you mind pointing out where this additional cross-piece will be added? I
guess I must have missed hearing about where compression failures may have occurred
in a spot related to this cross-piece, and I can't visualize it from the
narrative that you provided. Thanks.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420970#420970
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Terry: I'll tackle your Question No. 1 by plugging your numbers into the Excel
spreadsheet that documents my W&B on 41CC, which I also sent to William shortly
after a very competent EAA Tech Counselor, his experienced assistant, and I
conducted the W&B on race car scales and I documented it in my Excel spreadsheet
(which cannot lie, you understand ;o). I believe 41CC was included in William's
survey of the geometries, weights, and axle locations of various Air Campers
and variants thereof, which survey is presently being discussed and is making
the rounds.
You said to use a 200# pilot and to check the CG shift from 17 gallons in the nose
tank down to about 3 gallons remaining in the tank. In my 633 lb. (empty)
airplane in the given configuration, the CG shifts 2.3" from 19.1" to 21.4" aft
of datum (out of the aft limit). This shift will be the same for any aircraft
since it represents a moment that is the result of a mass times a distance.
The important thing, and Jack brought it out, is that in the wing centersection
the weight changes with fuel burn but it's located essentially on the CG
so nothing shifts. In the nose, the weight of the fuel is "hanging" out there
on a moment arm, so as the weight changes, so does the moment. The poor pilot,
sitting out there on the other end of the teeter-totter, has no way to move
forward (or shed weight) to balance the lightening load of fuel, so the CG comes
creeping aft to get him as punishment for drinking all that beer and eating
all that ice cream while watching TV at night ;o)
*FULL DISCLOSURE; TRUTH IN ADVERTISING; ONE PERSON'S OBSERVATION ONLY; USE AT YOUR
OWN RISK; MAY BE TOTAL B.S. AND UNSAFE*: my airplane has flown in the latter
configuration on many occasions and the handling was not reported as being
squirrelly, uncomfortable, unstable, or uncontrollable. On several of those occasions,
the pilot was an experienced test pilot, so it may be that his tolerance
for what constitutes "controllability" may be broader than that of the average
recreational pilot. I am not sanctioning such operation though.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420971#420971
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
Airlion: I forgot to address your original question in this thread, but I will
echo what was suggested. It's not so much the head of the fuel tank height above
the carb as it is the fuel flow that you get. You can have a wing centersection
tank several feet above the carb float bowl, but if you use small diameter
fuel tubing and a lot of fittings, the fuel flow may still be inadequate.
1 ft. of water (static head) = 0.433 psi. This is one of the unbending mathematical
laws that William alluded to. It won't change, as long as Earth's gravity
doesn't. My Stromberg carb was designed for "gravity feed", less than 2 psi
fuel pressure, or about 4-1/2 ft of head. If you assume that pipe friction
and fittings add roughly 50% to the total head, that means about 3 feet of "gravity"
head (elevation)... pretty much the height of a wing tank above a carb.
Any more than that pretty much means that you have a "pressurized" system...
a fuel pump. Some of the little electric Facet pumps can develop as much as
15 psi... definitely a "pressurized" system. So if your system has a nose tank
"down low", use good sized fuel lines and minimal fittings. If your tank is
"up high", you have the luxury of adding some bends and fittings, and maybe using
slightly smaller tubing, but you're still better off if you keep the tubing
size generous and limit the sharp offset bends and fittings.
I won't say what Tony Bingelis recommends for fuel tubing size.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420972#420972
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Oscar,
Thanks for the input. Your clear explanation was the reason for my question. It
sounds like running your nose tank low puts the non-standard weighing guy like
me in an aft CG condition that may put the aircraft beyond the recommended aft
CG limit. I also get it that you have flown in that regime with little to no
consequence.
But my question still boils down to risk management. Are we trading one risk (fuel
in the center section, a potential risk in the event of a crash which one
hopes never happens) for another risk (nose tank which has the capacity to affect
every flight, but definitely affects longer flights with greater fuel burn).
That is not an area that in which I would want to fly on a regular basis.
The nice thing about your long, clear explanation is that a beginning builder can
write in and post this same question a year from now and someone can answer
back, "Look it up. It is in the archives" [Wink]
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420974#420974
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel-tube fuselage update - landing gear welded |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Jake,
Nice. Really nice!
Are you doing bungees or die springs?
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420975#420975
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance Spreadsheet |
| From: | "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com> |
Gary, that's precisely my point. Moving the wheels has virtually NO affect on
CG in flight, all else being equal. That's why you can change a Tripacer into
a Pacer or vice versa. Same wing and fuselage.
In theory, you don't even have to put the scales under the wheels to get a valid
CG. You could put a fork under the prop and a knife edge stand under the pilots
seat and calculate a CG with accurate scales and known tare weights of the
supports. The only other necessary missing piece is their location in relationship
to whatever datum you choose. Weight x Arm always = Moment. Total weight
and total moment determine CG.
My point was that you can't change just one thing in Jack's spreadsheet without
at least considering its affect on the others. Moving the main wheels forward
WILL slightly increase the weight on the tail while on scales but the calculated
CG will stay almost static.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420976#420976
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Sorry I think you are making the wrong conclusion. Your weight has nothing
to do with it. You simply don't fly if there is an aft CG and having the fu
el in the wing just makes the problem worse.
Running out of fuel (or nearly running out of fuel) in a nose tank versus t
he same in a wing tank (or nearly running out of fuel) cannot make the si
tuation worse. If the fuel is gone it is gone. The difference that in a nos
e tank is that any fuel moves the CG forward at everything but empty. Since
no one can fly on empty it is always better in the nose than in the wing a
nd the amount of weight added to the nose=2C the length of the engine mount
or the amount the wing is moved back is less and on average the cg is more
forward. There is also the 15lbs or more of the tank weight itself that is
helping the aft cg problem all they time. The 10 lbs (or whatever you con
sider that to be) of reserve fuel that no one ever uses is also helping.
If you weigh more and it is your airplane then it is more important that th
e fuel is forward.
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section f
uel tanks vs. n
> From: jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com
> Date: Mon=2C 24 Mar 2014 22:57:53 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
tmail.com>
>
> Oscar=2C
>
> Thanks for the input. Your clear explanation was the reason for my questi
on. It sounds like running your nose tank low puts the non-standard weighin
g guy like me in an aft CG condition that may put the aircraft beyond the r
ecommended aft CG limit. I also get it that you have flown in that regime w
ith little to no consequence.
>
> But my question still boils down to risk management. Are we trading one r
isk (fuel in the center section=2C a potential risk in the event of a crash
which one hopes never happens) for another risk (nose tank which has the c
apacity to affect every flight=2C but definitely affects longer flights wit
h greater fuel burn). That is not an area that in which I would want to fly
on a regular basis.
>
> The nice thing about your long=2C clear explanation is that a beginning b
uilder can write in and post this same question a year from now and someone
can answer back=2C "Look it up. It is in the archives" [Wink]
>
> --------
> Semper Fi=2C
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens=2C GA
>
> USMC=2C USMCR=2C ATP
> BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420974#420974
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | all good--even the outdated stuff which.....really isn't |
outdated at all, even wing cc tanks!
Great discussion here guys and what I was trying to do here was sarcastical
ly (intentional) lluminate William Wynne's criticism of the outdating
products/ possibly unsafe suggestions that he notes the Tony Bingelis books
contain and that the old ways of doing things with homebuilts
aren't always the best anymore.
I was just applying William's logic to the Pietenpol center section wing ta
nk to see what kind of a response I would get PLUS to advocate what I belie
ve
is a great place for fuel in a Pietenpol but both wing and nose tanks are,
of course, totally acceptable---just like the older ideas in specific insta
nces in the
Bingelis books.
The main point is that I want to bring to this list a sense of encouragemen
t, not discouragement.
I want to remain positive and enthusiastic, not stand around and urinate on
specific pet-peeve campfires that I'd like to dampen.
Long laborious posts with multiple web links are simply exhausting and unle
ss you're nearly unemployed or retired, few of us have the time to read
that stuff nor is it necessary to build a safe Pietenpol.
Practical, sound, proven advice is what I like to see on the Pietenpol list
and for the most part we have that which has always attracted me to the li
st,
the airplane, and the people who build them. Simple, light, and cheap.
It doesn't have to get all convoluted and complex and wordy to be safe an
d fun.
Here's to common sense and having fun building!
MikeC.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Terry,
I'm glad you asked that question, as it's been on my mind all day, since
Mike's post. I don't mean this as a rebuttal for what Mike said, only an
observation. I'm not sure if there is a conclusive answer. Certainly, no one
could argue much with Mike's logic...but I have a 16 gallon wing tank. Quite
honestly, I love the process of refueling...even if while perched on a
ladder and the strut. Who wouldn't? Re-fueling means that you're going
flying again! Maybe not that day, but, again, someday. I enjoy that as much
as I enjoy removing the 84 screws that hold my cowling in place....as much
as I enjoy removing all the panels for annual inspection. It's what I signed
up for.
As mentioned, my wing tank is 16 gallons. Cabanes are tilted back 4". That's
the real key...the beauty of setting CG with the wing. There is no worry
about fuel burn. Most aft CG, Most Forward CG, Gross CG, all fall within
limits. I used Jack's chart. It's great! You can easily plug in hypothetical
numbers all day and watch the results.
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jarheadpilot82
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 3:52 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel
tanks vs. n
-->
Mike,
Thanks for bringing this up. I don't consider it as bringing up outdated
ideas as much as a discussion of risk management. And discussing risk
management is never a bad thing. I have no dog in this hunt as I have yet to
decide on fuel tank position. I lean toward the Center Section tank, but am
open to either location. So here are my questions for people smarter than I
to answer-
1. Maybe Jack or Ryan can chime in here since it is a CG question. How much
movement of the CG would occur with a 200 pound pilot (I know I am not
FAA-sized) in the "average" Pietenpol (yes, I know there is no such
creature, but you know what I am asking), if there was a 17 gallon fuel tank
in the normal nose tank location. What would the change be from full (~17
gallons) to reserve (say, 3-4 gallons remaining) to completely empty? I
realize the center section tank has much less effect on CG.
My point in asking the question is this. In terms of risk management, how
many guys have had incidents involving takeoff or landing out of CG range,
as opposed to guys that have landed and the center section gave way? are we
creating one risk management issue (flying out of CG range) by trying to
prevent another one (the chance of fuel leak/spill in the event of a crash)?
2. This is a tough one to ask, but I will ask it. Kevin Purtee is the only
guy I know personally that has had an accident in his Pietenpol. We all have
heard his story, and I appreciate his sharing. I would ask him to share one
more time. Kevin, do you think that your accident would have had any better
or worse outcome had you had a nose tank instead of a wing tank? What tank
are you building this time? Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.
3. We have had quite a discussion lately on the wisdom of braided fuel lines
over hard lines from the center section, so let me add one more thought for
discussion of risk management. What about adding breakaway fuel fittings
between the center section tank and the braided fuel line that would shutoff
in the event the lines tore away in an accident? Race cars have them. We had
them on our helicopters when I was in the Marine Corps. Anyone want to chime
in on the use of such fittings? Don't tell me they are too expensive as ,
most likely, only one or two would be needed.
4. Does anyone know which tank Mr. Pietenpol flew with most often? Just
curious.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420951#420951
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: all good--even the outdated stuff which.....really |
isn't out
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
First of all, sarcasm is in the eye of the beholder. It usually works best when
speaking with people who know your normal demeanor and attitude. I did not get
the sarcasm, and I am sure that I am not alone.
Long and laborious posts with multiple web links is a problem? Then none of us
should point people toward westcoastpiet.com or any builders website. The truth
is that I have all the time in the world to research construction practices
and design issues if it means I build a better airplane. I will take the time.
I work 2 jobs, Mike, and I read a lot. It just means I don't watch Dancing With
The Stars or Duck Dynasty.
I think that you sell builders short by assuming that reading and studying as they
build is just "too much". I am not trying to over complicate things, but I
am trying to research as much as I can. This is a first time build for me, and
I don't want it to be my last. If writing a long post about safe construction
practices or risk management turns people away from building a Pietenpol, then
they did not need to be building one anyway.
Fun can be had and still pass along good information. Give builders some credit,
and let them decide to read or not to read.
Gonna close, Mike, I am headed to the shop to work on my empennage. That is after
studying and reading for quite a while yesterday so as to, hopefully avoid
mistakes in building.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420981#420981
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Brian,
I am not getting your logic-
"Your weight has nothing to do with it. You simply don't fly if there is an aft
CG and having the fuel in the wing just makes the problem worse."
Fuel in the wing makes it worse? How is that? Fuel in the wing sits closer to the
CG than fuel in the nose, and the burn off affects CG less, not more the closer
it is to the aircraft's CG.
"Running out of fuel (or nearly running out of fuel) in a nose tank versus the
same in a wing tank (or nearly running out of fuel) cannot make the situation
worse. If the fuel is gone it is gone. The difference that in a nose tank is that
any fuel moves the CG forward at everything but empty. Since no one can fly
on empty it is always better in the nose than in the wing and the amount of
weight added to the nose, the length of the engine mount or the amount the wing
is moved back is less and on average the cg is more forward. There is also the
15lbs or more of the tank weight itself that is helpingthe aft cg problem all
they time. The 10 lbs (or whatever you consider that to be) of reserve fuel
that no one ever uses is also helping. "
Brian, I am not worried about the fuel that is left in the nose tank. I am worried
about the fuel that burned off that was, at one time, forward of the CG that
was balancing against my fat butt sitting behind the CG. Once that fuel has
burned off, there is less weight to counteract my fat butt, so the CG moves aft.
Check your aerodynamics and design books. I just don't want to move it so
far aft, that the airplane is aft of the safe aft CG. That can be mitigated in
the construction phase by adjustment of the wing location, and all I am saying
is that that issue should be dealt with in the build. Nobody should fly an airplane
outside of the CG range. Will the airplane fly? Yes. Are your options
lessened when you do? Absolutely.
"If you weigh more and it is your airplane then it is more important that the fuel
is forward."
It is most important that the CG is balanced, and the aircraft is flown in the
proper CG range.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420985#420985
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Terry, you commented exactly on what was going through my mind as I
read Brian's post. No one is advocating using a wing tank and THEN
setting up the plane to be out of CG limits, that would be, frankly,
stupid. Using a wing tank, just to be clear one more time, eliminates
a factor that is always the case with a nose tank - that the CG will
shift aft as fuel is consumed. The arguments against a wing tank to
some degree fall in the category of what Chuck Gantzer, a former
member of this list who flies his Piet literally all over the country,
used to call "building for crash-worthiness, not flight-worthiness".
There are potential problems with both tank locations. I might mention
that many years ago the Pavliga's wing tank on Sky Gypsy split a seam
while the elder Frank was flying. He got soaked with gas and by all
accounts spent a number of terrifying minutes getting the plane back
on the ground. As you, Mike, and William have all said earlier, it's
a matter of building well with risk management in mind. (It is
possible to build well and still produce a crappy product! - our home
is a good example, built like a tank by an expert craftsman, but much
less than comfortably livable because of design flaws).
Kip Gardner
On Mar 25, 2014, at 9:11 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote:
> >
>
> Brian,
>
> I am not getting your logic-
>
> "Your weight has nothing to do with it. You simply don't fly if
> there is an aft CG and having the fuel in the wing just makes the
> problem worse."
>
> Fuel in the wing makes it worse? How is that? Fuel in the wing sits
> closer to the CG than fuel in the nose, and the burn off affects CG
> less, not more the closer it is to the aircraft's CG.
>
> "Running out of fuel (or nearly running out of fuel) in a nose tank
> versus the same in a wing tank (or nearly running out of fuel)
> cannot make the situation worse. If the fuel is gone it is gone. The
> difference that in a nose tank is that any fuel moves the CG forward
> at everything but empty. Since no one can fly on empty it is always
> better in the nose than in the wing and the amount of weight added
> to the nose, the length of the engine mount or the amount the wing
> is moved back is less and on average the cg is more forward. There
> is also the 15lbs or more of the tank weight itself that is
> helpingthe aft cg problem all they time. The 10 lbs (or whatever you
> consider that to be) of reserve fuel that no one ever uses is also
> helping. "
>
> Brian, I am not worried about the fuel that is left in the nose
> tank. I am worried about the fuel that burned off that was, at one
> time, forward of the CG that was balancing against my fat butt
> sitting behind the CG. Once that fuel has burned off, there is less
> weight to counteract my fat butt, so the CG moves aft. Check your
> aerodynamics and design books. I just don't want to move it so far
> aft, that the airplane is aft of the safe aft CG. That can be
> mitigated in the construction phase by adjustment of the wing
> location, and all I am saying is that that issue should be dealt
> with in the build. Nobody should fly an airplane outside of the CG
> range. Will the airplane fly? Yes. Are your options lessened when
> you do? Absolutely.
>
> "If you weigh more and it is your airplane then it is more important
> that the fuel is forward."
>
> It is most important that the CG is balanced, and the aircraft is
> flown in the proper CG range.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
> USMC, USMCR, ATP
> BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420985#420985
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corky's Miss Isabelle |
Oscar, thanks for letting us know, I will send Corky my condolences -
I miss his regular presence on the list.
Kip Gardner
On Mar 24, 2014, at 11:40 PM, taildrags wrote:
> >
>
> Some of you may not know Claude "Corky" Corbett, but he's the
> gentleman from Shreveport, LA who completed and flew my airplane,
> NX41CC, before selling it to me. His email address for as long as
> I've known him or seen his posts has been Isablcorky(at)aol.com , with
> the first part of that being his wife Isabelle's name. These last
> few years, she has been in a nursing home and Corky has been living
> by himself in a little place in the country. I just had news from
> him that Isabelle died on Sunday morning, March 23.
>
> Just thought I would pass this along to anyone who knows Corky and
> might care to send condolences his way. By the way, Corky was a
> builder who didn't waste a lot of time on theoretical matters or
> clever innovations. He built 41CC light, simple, and very
> deliberately. He completed the paperwork, W&B, and testing- and
> then hit a brick wall when the FAA dragged its heels for years
> before passing the Sport Pilot rule that would have permitted him to
> continue flying without a medical. He decided that the rule would
> never pass, sold the airplane to me, and then the rule passed
> shortly after that. I always felt like I took his airplane away,
> but have tried to make the most of being its steward since then.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420968#420968
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
| From: | Ryan Mueller <ryan(at)rmueller.org> |
I believe Terry has nailed the crux of the issue right there: it is more
important to be in CG limits.
It has been demonstrated that the most effective way to correct an aft CG
is to adjust the location of the wing relative to the fuselage. By doing so
you are not moving just one component relative to the datum, you are moving
the entire fuselage and everything contained within relative to the datum
(it may be easier to think of the wing as the fixed point, and the fuselage
is shifting fore and aft beneath it).
Being able to reposition the wing in relation to the fuselage is a feature
of the Pietenpol that many aircraft do not have, and allows you to setup
the aircraft to be in a safe configuration for a given builder. If simply
adjusting the wing's location is undesirable from an aesthetic point of
view....well, ok, there will have to be more compromises elsewhere.
As far as safety of the fuselage tank versus the wing tank, I think that's
a question best answered by, as Terry has mentioned, risk management.
Empirical testing by certain members of the community has shown that the
fuselage tank can be compromised quite handily.....I believe one will see a
better return by taking measures to reasonably manage the risk, such as
braided fuel lines from wing to fuselage as William advocates, than being
overly concerned about one location versus the other.
Ryan
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 8:11 AM, jarheadpilot82
wrote:
> jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
>
>
> "If you weigh more and it is your airplane then it is more important that
> the fuel is forward."
>
> It is most important that the CG is balanced, and the aircraft is flown in
> the proper CG range.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | all good--even the outdated stuff which.....really isn't |
outdated at all, even wing cc tanks!
Good discussion here guys and what I was trying to do here was sarcasticall
y (intentional) lluminate William Wynne's criticism of the outdating
products/ possibly unsafe suggestions that he notes the Tony Bingelis books
contain and that the old ways of doing things with homebuilts
aren't always the best anymore.
I was just applying William's logic to the Pietenpol center section wing ta
nk to see what kind of a response I would get PLUS to advocate what I belie
ve
is a great place for fuel in a Pietenpol but both wing and nose tanks are,
of course, totally acceptable---just like the older ideas in specific insta
nces in the
Bingelis books.
The main point is that I want to bring to this list a sense of encouragemen
t, not discouragement.
I want to remain positive and enthusiastic, not stand around and urinate on
specific pet-peeve campfires that I'd like to dampen.
Long laborious posts with multiple web links are simply exhausting and unle
ss you're nearly unemployed or retired, few of us have the time to read
that stuff nor is it necessary to build a safe Pietenpol.
Practical, sound, proven advice is what I like to see on the Pietenpol list
and for the most part we have that which has always attracted me to the li
st,
the airplane, and the people who build them. Simple, light, and cheap.
It doesn't have to get all convoluted and complex and wordy to be safe an
d fun.
Here's to common sense and having fun building!
MikeC.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
sorry I wasn't clear so if you didn't follow my logic maybe I can try agai
n. Of course the weight of a pilot matters and you must compensate for it.
I was responding to the concept that if a heavier pilot is in an airplane
and the fuel burns off in a front tank that the CG moves behind the aft lim
it. That is not necessarily so.
While that could occur the idea is to move the adjust the aircraft CG so as
the fuel burns off it does not move to behind an aft CG limit and therefor
e the weight of the pilot doesn't matter if you do that. That was my point.
When you complete an airplane you make sure by calculation that the aircraf
t stays in the CG range with a certain pilot weight. If you design it for y
ou and you are 200 lbs then you adjust the aircraft to fly safely by three
of the methods I mentioned. I weigh over 200 and this in not a problem in m
y aircraft.
So to my original point. You have a moveable object in the aircraft=2C tha
t for argument sake=2C weighs 25 lbs (in this case - tank plus reserve fue
l) and you move it forward the CG moves forward. Add another 75 lbs of fuel
and it has even a bigger effect. Yes a tank directly on the CG it has less
effect on trim=2C but if you have an AFT CG problem then moving it forward
helps this problem. Likewise if you had a forward GC problem you would wa
nt to shift weight back.
Pietenpol`s with A65 continentals typically have this problem that require
s a long engine mount and moving the wing back or both. Both changes reduce
s the directional stability of the airplane. Add a heavy center section win
g tank and the problem gets bigger.
I have seen three Piets with this problem. These are extreme examples. Two
of them moved the pilot to the front seat and made a two seater into a one
seater. The third had a about 25 lbs bolted to the engine. Then there was
the guy that was flying at 22.2 ins behind the leading edge - he sold it b
ecause he knew he was going to kill himself! The new buyer fixed the proble
m by moving the wing.
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section f
uel tanks vs. n
> From: jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com
> Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 06:11:46 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
tmail.com>
>
> Brian=2C
>
> I am not getting your logic-
>
> "Your weight has nothing to do with it. You simply don't fly if there is
an aft CG and having the fuel in the wing just makes the problem worse."
>
> Fuel in the wing makes it worse? How is that? Fuel in the wing sits close
r to the CG than fuel in the nose=2C and the burn off affects CG less=2C no
t more the closer it is to the aircraft's CG.
>
> "Running out of fuel (or nearly running out of fuel) in a nose tank versu
s the same in a wing tank (or nearly running out of fuel) cannot make the s
ituation worse. If the fuel is gone it is gone. The difference that in a no
se tank is that any fuel moves the CG forward at everything but empty. Sinc
e no one can fly on empty it is always better in the nose than in the wing
and the amount of weight added to the nose=2C the length of the engine moun
t or the amount the wing is moved back is less and on average the cg is mor
e forward. There is also the 15lbs or more of the tank weight itself that i
s helpingthe aft cg problem all they time. The 10 lbs (or whatever you cons
ider that to be) of reserve fuel that no one ever uses is also helping. "
>
> Brian=2C I am not worried about the fuel that is left in the nose tank. I
am worried about the fuel that burned off that was=2C at one time=2C forwa
rd of the CG that was balancing against my fat butt sitting behind the CG.
Once that fuel has burned off=2C there is less weight to counteract my fat
butt=2C so the CG moves aft. Check your aerodynamics and design books. I ju
st don't want to move it so far aft=2C that the airplane is aft of the safe
aft CG. That can be mitigated in the construction phase by adjustment of t
he wing location=2C and all I am saying is that that issue should be dealt
with in the build. Nobody should fly an airplane outside of the CG range. W
ill the airplane fly? Yes. Are your options lessened when you do? Absolutel
y.
>
> "If you weigh more and it is your airplane then it is more important that
the fuel is forward."
>
> It is most important that the CG is balanced=2C and the aircraft is flown
in the proper CG range.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi=2C
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens=2C GA
>
> USMC=2C USMCR=2C ATP
> BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420985#420985
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
If I may...=0A=0AHere is how I am looking at both views on wing-V-nose fuel
tanks... solely looking at weight, not the pros and cons. of having fuel o
ver your head, ease of fueling, fuel line length, etc.=0A---- If we
use an imaginary Pietenpol with a wing mounted fuel tank with it's various
CG scenarios, etc. then move said tank to the nose, keeping everything the
same, (which is easy with an imaginary plane)...what do we notice?- One
point of view, I believe, looks at the static differences...now you have th
e weight of the tank moved forward along with the weight of the unusable fu
el...all pluses on a usually tail heavy plane. These are somewhat static ch
anges, as much as a longer engine mount or the moving of the landing gear.
When viewed from a dynamic point, fuel weight change in a wing mounted tank
has little effect on C.G.- In the nose tank, with the longer arm, the dy
namic fuel weight change has a greater effect than the wing tank, again, in
our keeping-everything-else-the-same Pietenpol. So is it best to have a co
rrect static, on paper, C.G.; or a- correct, dynamic, in flight C.G? From
here you can forget about leaving the two imaginary
planes the same and start to look at the other variables...climbing ladder
s, having fuel over your head, tank damage with nose damage, fuel head, fue
l pressure...and the various other points brought up so far. Now the "corre
ct" answer starts to get complicated and it is here, the builder needs to m
ake some potentially tough decisions.=0A=0ASomething else, I thought about,
which may or my not matter:=0A--- A wing mounted tank does have an a
rm of sorts, along the longitudinal axis. In a roll, the wing tank has an a
rm greater than the nose tank. It is a weight, being swung around the longi
tudinal axis. Does this matter, does it effect stability? What, if anything
, changes as fuel burns? =0A=0A=0AI don't have any answers, but I do have a
nose tank and for now, I'll give it a try.=0A=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot
...switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
Thanks for your response. You are doing what all builders should do- read, study,
analyze then decide. That is much better than building based on empirical data.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421000#421000
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
| From: | Ryan Mueller <ryan(at)rmueller.org> |
Mike,
What you want to determine are extremes of the CG range of your aircraft,
and ensure they fall within the recommended limits of the design (with aft
CG admittedly being more of a concern with the Pietenpol).
You would establish the most adverse aft condition by calculating the CG
for zero usable fuel and pilot only......that will be the condition you
could find yourself in, in flight, that would present the most aft CG.
You can add fuel and pax to determine your most forward CG condition. The
passenger should not have much effect, as they are under the wing....and as
has been pointed out, the fuel in a fuselage tank will have more effect
than the wing tank.
As long as you setup your Pietenpol so that it's most forward and aft
conditions fall within the recommended limits, then the shifting CG as fuel
burns off should not be a safety concern.
Ryan
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
So is it best to have a correct static, on paper, C.G.; or a correct,
dynamic, in flight C.G?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
If I had to do it again, I would seriously consider a wing tank only. I do like
the "pros." of the wing tank and for me, I may still need a ladder even with
a nose tank...I need access to that storage area on the wing the fuel tank left
behind...
If God is your co-pilot...switch seats.
Mike Perez
KaretakerAero
STILL Building...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Both the MD 11 and Airbus A330 put fuel in the VERT STAB to help CG issues!
In the A330, we just get occasional messages as to what it's doing... nice how
it keeps us in the loop...
Geesh
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421004#421004
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
Ryan explained it much better than I, so I will simply say, "Yeah. What he said".
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421005#421005
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Understood Ryan, thanks.- This is good intel. for me to have because I be
lieve I will forgo renting a hangar and do my "final" assembly at home this
summer. Of course it will need to come apart again, but at least I can do
my W&B, figure out wing location, fabricate diagonal braces, cowling around
braces, wing cross cables...etc... =0A=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...swit
ch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Real time messages in the cock pit? Like: "Hello pilots, fuel in the vert.
stab. has been depleted and the CG is whacked. You may want to turn on the
seatbelt signs."- =0A=0ALike Mario...just playin'.=0A=0A=0AIf God is your
co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0ASTILL Building...
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil> |
Terry - To answer your specific question to me: I'm using a wing tank again. 16
gallons this time. A fuselage tank sits in the lap of the passenger. In my
accident, a fuselage tank would have resulted in more fuel nearer to me after
impact than was the case with the wing tank. Had there been a fire I would've
likely died in either scenario. The fuel spill situation was not good after
the crash, but it was better than if I'd had a fuselage tank.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421010#421010
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Closer to that than you may like to realize! Seriously. We can't transfer it
willingly, but it can. Just weird.
I mean, talk about excess complexity, wow. Of course we're never taught how the
thing decides whether it needs to move fuel around for CG reasons. Computed
using how much trim is actually being used vs what should be being used based
on flight testing or something I imagine.
Isn't like we can mess up the system, because like my Piet, it doesn't even HAVE
a trim button!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421011#421011
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | here's an idea for risk mitigation strategies---and for |
us full figured girls
Bernie would have spit nickels hearing this kind of lingo that seems to be
so popular these days but
here's an idea to increase safety and decrease risk---use an engine that ha
s a good reliability record,
no matter what homebuilt you're using. Just throwing that one out there;
)
Mike C.
PS-and being a bit on the full-figured size like I am, (205 pounds) the we
ight of the nose fuel really helps my CG situation
in all phases of flight except when I'm down to 2 gallons in the tank and I
never go that low. My experience with CG vs.
fuel burn is exactly what Brian Kenney posted.
It sure is great to have all that luggage space in the wing center section
too!
Again, the bottom line is to use whatever fuel tank position you think is b
est for you----and just because it is a very old design
doesn't mean is isn't perfectly good to use today but like William Wynne pr
ofesses.....there are newer, other ways to do things
now days no matter how old those plans are or the Tony Bingelis books are b
ut both are chock full of good stuff that still works today!
My new Facebook profile photo.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinpurtee
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 12:52 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fue
l tanks vs. n
--> >
Terry - To answer your specific question to me: I'm using a wing tank again
. 16 gallons this time. A fuselage tank sits in the lap of the passenger.
In my accident, a fuselage tank would have resulted in more fuel nearer t
o me after impact than was the case with the wing tank. Had there been a f
ire I would've likely died in either scenario. The fuel spill situation wa
s not good after the crash, but it was better than if I'd had a fuselage ta
nk.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421010#421010
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: here's an idea for risk mitigation strategies---and |
for us f
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
I know Mr. Pietenpol (I never knew him, so I respectfully call him Mr. Pietenpol)
didn't use the word risk management as nobody did most likely in the 1930s.
However I am sure he did use the word safe. I think he would be happy that people
were talking about methods to build a "safer" airplane. So I don't think
he would spit nickels over the idea of building safe airplanes, and talking about
building safe airplanes.
By the way, what did you mean by reliable engine? Is that a veiled way of saying
certificated engine? Define reliable. Don't throw the word out there without
being more specific. I know that most likely means a lengthy discussion, but
I think the forum can handle it if it is a knowledgeable discussion.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421014#421014
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: all good--even the outdated stuff which.....really |
isn't outdated at all, even wing cc tanks!
..."The main point is that I want to bring to this list a sense of encourag
ement, not discouragement. =0AI want to remain positive and =0Aenthusiastic
, not stand around and urinate on specific pet-peeve =0Acampfires that I
=99d like to dampen."=0A=0AI agree Mike.=C2- Not that disagreements wo
n't happen, but they can be handled in a way to=C2- be encouraging rather
then discouraging. =0A=0ASorry for the delay guys, I flew through some pos
ts initially, (busy day) and am just going back=C2- through getting caugh
t up.=C2-=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...switch seats.=0A=0AMike Perez=0A
KaretakerAero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
"Best of luck....share some pics and show it off once you've got it together."
I'll definitely give that some thought! My plan from the start was too keep things
under tight wraps until complete and unveil the ship in all its glory, (or
lack of) once it has flown. But it is difficult not to post more pictures now
rather than later.
If God is your co-pilot...switch seats.
Mike Perez
KaretakerAero
STILL Building...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | what is reliable? |
http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/homebuilts_report_wanttaja.pdf Terry-see pa
ge 6 which compares factory built engine failures to homebuilt engine failu
res then you decide which is
more reliable. You're a smart guy with 2 jobs and lots of time to read all
this stuff so I won't take time to explain it.
and also....
Terry Hand writes:
Mike,
I know Mr. Pietenpol (I never knew him, so I respectfully call him Mr. Piet
enpol) didn't use the word risk management as nobody did most likely in the
1930s. However I am sure he did use the word safe. I think he would be hap
py that people were talking about methods to build a "safer" airplane. So I
don't think he would spit nickels over the idea of building safe airplanes
, and talking about building safe airplanes.
Well Terry you might read a lot but you completely misread what I wrote and
misquoted me. What I said Bernie would spit nickels
about is 'this kind of lingo' not building safe airplanes. See below.
You'd make a great journalist!
Bernie would have spit nickels hearing this kind of ling.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: what is reliable? |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
That study offers nothing useful for helping someone to decide whether to use a
"traditional" engine over a "non traditional" engine other than "may" and "probably"
coupled with the fact "non traditional" engines rarely get any useful
post accident attention like "traditional" engines do, though one of the higher
classifications associated therewith usually restart and run well after the
crash... "DOES pose increased risk".
Wow. I'll take that to the bank...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421018#421018
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: what is reliable? |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
I sense the smart a-- coming out in you. I read what you wrote. Could it be possible
that your point was not made clear, rather than your premise that I don't
know how to read?
Or maybe you were just throwing a little sarcasm out there.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421020#421020
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | I Googled that for you---engine reliability |
Perhaps someone out there has a better source for determining what defines
a 'reliable engine'
but I thought I'd defer to the NTSB Accident reports and FAA registration d
atabase data which has been
summarized here in this article. You're all really intelligent, accompli
shed folks out there so you read, you decide.....
nose tank or wing tank, conventional aircraft engine or auto engine, 3-pi
ece wing or single piece wing, blue and white
or red and white?
Mike C.
Ohio
http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/miscellaneous/8485-1.html
Auto Engines Versus Traditional Certified Engines
One of the oldest controversies in the homebuilt world is the use of conver
ted auto engines. Unfortunately, we cannot come up with an overall accident
rate based on engine type. Sure, the FAA registration database lists hundr
eds of homebuilts as powered by Volkswagens, Subarus, Fords, etc., but thou
sands more are listed as mounting AMA/EXPR engines. We don't know how many
of these have Lycomings or Continentals at their core, or those that sprang
from GM or Subaru, so we can't reliably calculate an overall rate.
However, most NTSB accident reports list the type of engine. We can easily
determine how often a loss of power was the cause of the accident, and comp
are the rates for traditionally powered aircraft with those mounting auto-e
ngine conversions. Obviously, a higher percentage means a higher relative n
umber of engine failures.
While we're at it, let's show the two-stroke engine results as well.
Traditional Aircraft Engines: 12.2%
Two-Stroke Engines: 28.9%
Auto Engine Conversions: 30.5%
The differences are even more striking when only fixed-wing homebuilts are
included:
Traditional Aircraft Engines: 12.3%
Two-Stroke Engines: 32.8%
Auto Engine Conversions: 37.5%
So, if a fixed-wing homebuilt has an accident, the probability is three tim
es higher that the engine was the cause of the accident if an auto-engine c
onversion was installed!
(Please note, this does not mean it has an accident rate that is three time
s higher. Fewer than 20% of homebuilt accidents involve problems with the e
ngine, and not all of those are directly the engine's fault.)
For years, auto-engine naysayers claimed that the internals of the engines
were more prone to failure than traditional engines. A comparison of engine
-failure causes in Figure 5 (on Page 28) indicates otherwise. Auto engines
seem to suffer from internal problems at a lower rate than traditional airc
raft powerplants.
However, auto engines are worse in three major areas: ignition systems, coo
ling systems and reduction drives. The need for a reduction drive on most a
uto-engine conversions provides a failure source that the traditional engin
es don't generally face (the 0.7% shown in Figure 5 is a single accident in
volving the drivetrain on a helicopter). Neither do traditional engines hav
e external cooling systems-though some of those internal failures may well
be due to poorly baffled engines. The water pumps, belts, hoses and radiato
rs on many auto conversions provide another failure source the traditional
certified engines avoid by design.
The biggest difference is in ignition system failures: Auto engines suffer
them four times as often as conventional aircraft. Sure aircraft magnetos a
re primitive, and individually they are probably less reliable than a moder
n electronic ignition. But the vast majority of homebuilts with Lycomings a
nd Continentals carry two magnetos that are completely independent of any o
ther aircraft system.
Several of the ignition failures in auto conversions were due to electrical
power problems with electronic ignitions. Electrical systems do fail, so a
completely independent backup power source is vital.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: I Googled that for you---engine reliability |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
It's awfully long to read, Mike...
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421022#421022
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
It's awfully long to read, Mike...
Ahahha! Terry-you actually made me laugh! Good one. Gosh....I think I
may like you (just a little) after all! See.....you do have
a sense of humor in there.
Did you like my fat guy photo? That was meant to make people laugh and e
njoy our list. You just made me laugh-thank you.
Now get out to the shop and start working on your airplane:) !
Mike C.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: I Googled that for you---engine reliability |
| From: | Ken Bickers <bickers.ken(at)gmail.com> |
Mike,
Thanks for posting this. To me, the discussion of typical failure modes
for auto conversions -- when considering the Corvair option -- was
reassuring. With the Corvair, there's no reduction unit and the cooling
setup is typical of lots of aircraft designs. Of the three biggies
discussed in the article, that leaves only the ignition as a major concern.
The current state of the art on ignitions for Corvairs would seem to
eliminate many of the gotchas of ignition systems on auto conversions.
I've posted previously my rationale for choosing to mount a Corvair on my
Piet (available via an archive search). I can also see the rationale for
small Continentals and would seriously consider one of those if I lived and
flew closer to sea level.
Parenthetically, it seems time for folks to go back to playing nice with
one another on this list. There's plenty of room for disagreement. No
need to be disagreeable when doing so.
Cheers, Ken
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage
Partners, LLC] wrote:
> Perhaps someone out there has a better source for determining what
> defines a 'reliable engine'
> but I thought I'd defer to the NTSB Accident reports and FAA registration
> database data which has been
> summarized here in this article. You're all really intelligent,
> accomplished folks out there so you read, you decide.....
> nose tank or wing tank, conventional aircraft engine or auto engine,
> 3-piece wing or single piece wing, blue and white
> or red and white?
>
> Mike C.
> Ohio
>
> *http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/miscellaneous/8485-1.html*>
>
>
> *Auto Engines Versus Traditional Certified Engines *
>
> One of the oldest controversies in the homebuilt world is the use of
> converted auto engines. Unfortunately, we cannot come up with an overall
> accident rate based on engine type. Sure, the *FAA registration database*lists
hundreds of homebuilts as powered by Volkswagens, Subarus, Fords,
> etc., but thousands more are listed as mounting AMA/EXPR engines. We don't
> know how many of these have Lycomings or Continentals at their core, or
> those that sprang from GM or Subaru, so we can't reliably calculate an
> overall rate.
>
> However, *most NTSB accident reports* list the type of engine. We can
> easily determine how often a loss of power was the cause of the accident,
> and compare the rates for traditionally powered aircraft with those
> mounting auto-engine conversions. Obviously, a higher percentage means a
> higher relative number of engine failures.
>
> While we're at it, let's show the two-stroke engine results as well.
>
> Traditional Aircraft Engines: 12.2%
> Two-Stroke Engines: 28.9%
> Auto Engine Conversions: 30.5%
>
> *The differences are even more striking when only fixed-wing homebuilts
> are included:*
>
> * Traditional Aircraft Engines: 12.3% *
> * Two-Stroke Engines: 32.8% *
> * Auto Engine Conversions: 37.5%*
>
> So, if a fixed-wing homebuilt has an accident, the probability is three
> times higher that the engine was the cause of the accident if an
> auto-engine conversion was installed!
>
> (Please note, this does not mean it has an accident rate that is three
> times higher. Fewer than 20% of homebuilt accidents involve problems with
> the engine, and not all of those are directly the engine's fault.)
>
> For years, auto-engine naysayers claimed that the internals of the engines
> were more prone to failure than traditional engines. A comparison of
> engine-failure causes in Figure 5 (on Page 28) indicates otherwise. Auto
> engines seem to suffer from internal problems at a lower rate than
> traditional aircraft powerplants.
>
> However, auto engines are worse in three major areas: ignition systems,
> cooling systems and reduction drives. The need for a reduction drive on
> most auto-engine conversions provides a failure source that the traditional
> engines don't generally face (the 0.7% shown in Figure 5 is a single
> accident involving the drivetrain on a helicopter). Neither do traditional
> engines have external cooling systems--though some of those internal
> failures may well be due to poorly baffled engines. The water pumps, belts,
> hoses and radiators on many auto conversions provide another failure source
> the traditional certified engines avoid by design.
>
> The biggest difference is in ignition system failures: Auto engines suffer
> them four times as often as conventional aircraft. Sure aircraft magnetos
> are primitive, and individually they are probably less reliable than a
> modern electronic ignition. But the vast majority of homebuilts with
> Lycomings and Continentals carry two magnetos that are completely
> independent of any other aircraft system.
>
> Several of the ignition failures in auto conversions were due to
> electrical power problems with electronic ignitions. Electrical systems do
> fail, so a completely independent backup power source is vital.
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: I Googled that for you---engine reliability |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
I'll summarize it for you. Auto engine conversions have less internal failures,
but more ignition system, cooling and gear reduction failures.
At that level of specificity, it's qualitative not quanitative.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421025#421025
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
I must apologize for posting erroneous information. The same mass acting on the
same moment arm will produce the same moment on any airplane, but it will NOT
result in the same shift in the CG on every airplane. Consider the extremes:
my 16 gallon fuel tank on a moment arm a couple of feet long will produce a
certain moment and will result in a shift of my CG by a certain amount (couple
of inches). If I place that same fuel tank the same distance away from the CG
of a Boeing 777, the CG will not shift perceptibly. If I place that same fuel
tank the same distance away from the CG of a child's balsa glider... well,
you get the idea. You have to calc it for YOUR airplane to determine how much
the CG will shift as you burn fuel off.
I would also encourage anyone who does a W&B on their aircraft to use the wing
leading edge as the datum. The reason that I've heard most often for using the
face of the prop hub is so that all of the moments are positive and the math
is simplified since there are no negative numbers to deal with. Using the firewall
may make things easier to measure since the firewall is big, flat, and convenient.
However, you still need to drop a line from the leading edge to reference
it in the calculations, so why not use the LE?
[Abstract thought: using only positive numbers means you throw away almost HALF
the entire universe of numbers just because they are negative. It sounds like
discrimination to me, and a waste of good numbers.]
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421028#421028
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: long to read! |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Been working on the horizontal stab today. Got it glued up on the jig. Glad my
casein glue, I mean T88:wink:, works in these temperatures in Georgia.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421029#421029
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boatright, Jeffrey" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: what is reliable? |
Weeeelllll, I'm not sure about the interpretation of those data, not becaus
e they are wrong and not because you or Ron Wanttaja are wrong. It's just n
ot clear to me that the data available from FAA speak directly to engine fa
ilures per se versus what I think of as "systems failures" that directly im
pinge on engine reliability/performance.
Of the engine failures at 2GA9 for which I have direct knowledge, two were
Continental O-300s with stuck valves, one that resulted in short final thro
ugh the pine trees (literally) and the other with an off-field landing (nob
ody hurt in either one). Another was a Continental C-85 with stuck valve th
at resulted in a mid-field 'lawn dart' landing with substantial airframe da
mage and minor injury to pilot. A fourth was a Lycoming IO-360 that holed a
piston and resulted in a long glide that ended with a near-perfect outcome
(just made the field). So, all four of those were certified engines, all f
our had true engine failures. Of the experimentals, one went down off-field
due to improper induction/fuel system design. Another was a Jabiru 3300 th
at blew a hole in the oil pump cover. The final was a 2-stroke that crashed
on field due to the carb falling off the engine (!), killing the pilot rig
ht in front of his family. So, only one of the three experimental engines i
tself failed. I realize that many anecdotes don't make data, but these exam
ples illustrate the point that what gets termed "engine failure" may not be
failure of the engine itself, but rather a failure to provide to the engin
e that which keeps it running: fuel, spark, or air.
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
From: <Cuy>, "LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov<mailto:michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>>
>" >
Date: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:48 PM
etenpol-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: what is reliable?
http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/homebuilts_report_wanttaja.pdf Terry=97see
page 6 which compares factory built engine failures to homebuilt engine fai
lures then you decide which is
more reliable. You=92re a smart guy with 2 jobs and lots of time to read a
ll this stuff so I won=92t take time to explain it.
and also=85.
Terry Hand writes:
Mike,
I know Mr. Pietenpol (I never knew him, so I respectfully call him Mr. Piet
enpol) didn't use the word risk management as nobody did most likely in the
1930s. However I am sure he did use the word safe. I think he would be hap
py that people were talking about methods to build a "safer" airplane. So I
don't think he would spit nickels over the idea of building safe airplanes
, and talking about building safe airplanes.
Well Terry you might read a lot but you completely misread what I wrote and
misquoted me. What I said Bernie would spit nickels
about is =91this kind of lingo=92 not building safe airplanes. See below
. You=92d make a great journalist!
Bernie would have spit nickels hearing this kind of ling.
________________________________
This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
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If you have received this message in error, please contact
the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the
original message (including attachments).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Abstractly speaking,
Maybe more than half? Don't imaginary numbers come the square roots of negatives?
Just sayin'
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421031#421031
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
Good discussion thread on Weight and Balance. I have just received my packa
ge from Doc Mosher with WWs articles. Well documented info on CG and axle l
ocation. Keeping the CG location in mind as I build will have a high priori
ty. I have much more to study and learn. The CG spreadsheets recently poste
d are also valuable tools.
New question for some of you who have finished and flown your plane regardi
ng the total weight of the plane.
Like everyone=2C I want to be careful of adding unnecessary weight as I bui
ld. So far I am following the plans carefully. But like everyone=2C I am su
re=2C I have some personal customizations in the back of my mind.
WWs articles document specific data from individual planes. I pulled a hand
ful of them to examine more closely regarding Empty Weight (EW) - long/shor
t fuselage=2C A65/Corvair engines. The lightest weight airplane I studied w
as 590lb=2C the heaviest 842lb. Subtracting a 'standard' engine weight from
the EW yielded some interesting information. In most cases=2C regardless o
f the engine type or fuse. length=2C the weight of 'everything else' came o
ut to about 410-415lb. In only 2 cases I examined was there a great differe
nce - one was 581lb and the other 617lb. Not just over=2C but WAY over the
others.
Here's the question: What in the world do some builders add to their plane
s that takes a 400 lb plane to over 600 lb??
OK. Some extra instrumentation=2C tailwheel vs the original tailskid=2C bra
kes system=2C extra fuel tank=2C etc. But 200lb worth? What do I need to lo
ok out for?
Thanks for the replies.
Lorenzo
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel-tube fuselage update - landing gear welded |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Hello good Piet-ple,
Terry, I plan to uses springs.
Regarding the "cross-member" that has had some failures, see the RED tube in the
attached image.
I plan to add a second tube next to the red tube. This second tube will be 0.75"
diameter with 0.065" wall thickness. I am going to have it welded about an
inch away form the existing tube. This is less than the ideal solution which would
be to use a MUCH stronger tube in that location in the first place.
What at least three owners have found is that the RED tube is an un-supported two-foot
tube which collapses in compression during a hard landing. See the additional
attached drawing which shows that in a hard landing the inertia of the
wings drives a force down the struts to the landing gear fitting - while at the
same time a force is driven up through the landing gear struts to that same
fitting. These forces compress the cross-member and with it "per plans" (only
a 0.035" 5/8" tube) it cannot take the load and the un-supported two foot member
buckles. This also buckled the sides in a couple inches and ripped up the
floorboards.
If I was to do this from scratch I would use a MUCH thicker wall 0.075" diameter
tube instead of "sistering" another tube alongside the first one, but my cluster
joints are already welded and it should be easier at this time to simply
add another tube rather than cut up my completed cluster joint.
Although, there have been no failures (that I am aware of) in the AFT landing gear
(green) cross member location (it is supported mid-span by the "vee" brace),
I plan to add another tube there as well.
Hope this helps.....
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421036#421036
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/cross_member_crush_920.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/steel_tube_fuselage_cross_member_128.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net> |
I am a new guy so to speak so my opinion probably won't mean much. But here I go.
I'm building my piet with the center section tank like the plans call for.
If I wanted more endurance I would add a little header tank, but I don't think
I want it. As far as safety goes , I feel just as safe with a wing tank over
my head, as a nose tank sitting over the passengers legs. Many years ago
when piper entered the crop-duster business with the Pawnee, they built them with
a nose tank sitting right behind the engine made of fiberglass no less. I've
met a few of the guys that flew them and not a few have horrible burn scars
on their faces. The first thing that happened at a crash, which is not infrequent
in a cropduster, was that the fuel tank was crushed between the chemical
hopper and the engine and a fire. Piper learned after awhile and started building
them with wing tanks. Now I admit they were a low wing aircraft so the
location was lower and along side the cockpit but not as many caught fire.
Maybe the center section location is not the safest place for fuel but unless
you plan on building tip tanks I think it is just as safe as the nose. That is
my two cents worth.
And I love all you guys, Well maybe love is not the right word.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421038#421038
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boatright, Jeffrey" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: long to read! |
Trouble-maker...
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
On 3/25/14 5:01 PM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote:
>
>
>Been working on the horizontal stab today. Got it glued up on the jig.
>Glad my casein glue, I mean T88:wink:, works in these temperatures in
>Georgia.
>
>--------
>Semper Fi,
>
>Terry Hand
>Athens, GA
>
>USMC, USMCR, ATP
>BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421029#421029
>
>
________________________________
This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution
or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this message in error, please contact
the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the
original message (including attachments).
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: long to read! |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
If you mean me, Jeff, I have been called much worse. [Laughing]
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421040#421040
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
Lorenzo,
My Pietenpol came in at 745 lbs., which was about 80 lbs more than I was
expecting. I believe most of that extra weight was in the paint that I
chose, PolyFiber's Aerothane polyurethane. It is very heavy, and difficult
to paint. I ended up putting several coats on the fuselage before I got a
decent finish with a minimum of orange peel. The only way to get it off is
to sand it off, and I know I didn't sand all the extra coats off. The wire
wheels are also heavy, weighing (with tires and brakes) 25 lbs apiece. And
the straight axle weighs quite a bit as well. The battery and the avionics
add a bit but not as much as you'd think, and I was expecting the weight
they added (my original estimate, including the electrical stuff was 660
lbs, which would be a decent weight).
End result? Mine doesn't climb too well with a heavy load. I limit myself
to carrying passengers weighing no more than 180 lbs. The benefit of this
is, I can limit my passengers to pretty young women for the most part.
Simplicate and add lightness!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of larharris2
Harris
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Good discussion thread on Weight and Balance. I have just received my
package from Doc Mosher with WWs articles. Well documented info on CG and
axle location. Keeping the CG location in mind as I build will have a high
priority. I have much more to study and learn. The CG spreadsheets recently
posted are also valuable tools.
New question for some of you who have finished and flown your plane
regarding the total weight of the plane.
Like everyone, I want to be careful of adding unnecessary weight as I build.
So far I am following the plans carefully. But like everyone, I am sure, I
have some personal customizations in the back of my mind.
WWs articles document specific data from individual planes. I pulled a
handful of them to examine more closely regarding Empty Weight (EW) -
long/short fuselage, A65/Corvair engines. The lightest weight airplane I
studied was 590lb, the heaviest 842lb. Subtracting a 'standard' engine
weight from the EW yielded some interesting information. In most cases,
regardless of the engine type or fuse. length, the weight of 'everything
else' came out to about 410-415lb. In only 2 cases I examined was there a
great difference - one was 581lb and the other 617lb. Not just over, but WAY
over the others.
Here's the question: What in the world do some builders add to their planes
that takes a 400 lb plane to over 600 lb??
OK. Some extra instrumentation, tailwheel vs the original tailskid, brakes
system, extra fuel tank, etc. But 200lb worth? What do I need to look out
for?
Thanks for the replies.
Lorenzo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boatright, Jeffrey" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: long to read! |
;)
--
Jeff Boatright
On 3/25/14 8:58 PM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote:
>If you mean me, Jeff, I have been called much worse. [Laughing]
________________________________
This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution
or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this message in error, please contact
the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the
original message (including attachments).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
I like pretty young women . . .
From: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 21:40:51 -0400
=0A
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Lorenzo=2C=0A
=0A
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=0A
My Pietenpol came in at 745 lbs.=2C which=0A
was about 80 lbs more than I was expecting. I believe most of that extra
=0A
weight was in the paint that I chose=2C PolyFiber=92s Aerothane=0A
polyurethane. It is very heavy=2C and difficult to paint. I ended up=0A
putting several coats on the fuselage before I got a decent finish with a
=0A
minimum of orange peel. The only way to get it off is to sand it off=2C an
d=0A
I know I didn=92t sand all the extra coats off. The wire wheels are=0A
also heavy=2C weighing (with tires and brakes) 25 lbs apiece. And the stra
ight=0A
axle weighs quite a bit as well. The battery and the avionics add a bit=0A
but not as much as you=92d think=2C and I was expecting the weight they add
ed=0A
(my original estimate=2C including the electrical stuff was 660 lbs=2C whic
h would=0A
be a decent weight).=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
End result? Mine doesn=92t climb=0A
too well with a heavy load. I limit myself to carrying passengers=0A
weighing no more than 180 lbs. The benefit of this is=2C I can limit my=0A
passengers to pretty young women for the most part.=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Simplicate and add lightness!=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Jack Phillips=0A
=0A
NX899JP=0A
=0A
Smith Mountain Lake=2C Virginia=0A
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
Thanks for the input. I'm strongly considering Oratex fabric - so I don't n
eed no stinkin' paint.
Lorenzo
From: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 21:40:51 -0400
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Lorenzo=2C=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
My Pietenpol came in at 745 lbs.=2C which=0A
was about 80 lbs more than I was expecting. I believe most of that extra
=0A
weight was in the paint that I chose=2C PolyFiber=92s Aerothane=0A
polyurethane. It is very heavy=2C and difficult to paint. I ended up=0A
putting several coats on the fuselage before I got a decent finish with a
=0A
minimum of orange peel. The only way to get it off is to sand it off=2C an
d=0A
I know I didn=92t sand all the extra coats off. The wire wheels are=0A
also heavy=2C weighing (with tires and brakes) 25 lbs apiece. And the stra
ight=0A
axle weighs quite a bit as well. The battery and the avionics add a bit=0A
but not as much as you=92d think=2C and I was expecting the weight they add
ed=0A
(my original estimate=2C including the electrical stuff was 660 lbs=2C whic
h would=0A
be a decent weight).=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
End result? Mine doesn=92t climb=0A
too well with a heavy load. I limit myself to carrying passengers=0A
weighing no more than 180 lbs. The benefit of this is=2C I can limit my=0A
passengers to pretty young women for the most part.=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Simplicate and add lightness!=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Jack Phillips=0A
=0A
NX899JP=0A
=0A
Smith Mountain Lake=2C Virginia=0A
=0A
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=0A
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | glenschweizer(at)yahoo.com |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Weights |
Hi Lorenzo
I looked at the Oretex website. When checking prices, I became discour
aged when all they said was "compared to other finishing systems, the cost o
f spray guns, compressor setting up a booth...blah blah blah Oretex is compa
rable to other finishing systems". Please cut to the chase. Here. What doe
s it cost to cover a pietenpol?
Anytime a supplier hides behind a bunch of B S , I run the other direct
ion. The concept is interesting, however
Thanks
Glen
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 25, 2014, at 7:14 PM, larharris2 Harris wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input. I'm strongly considering Oratex fabric - so I don't n
eed no stinkin' paint.
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
> From: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:40:51 -0400
>
> Lorenzo,
>
>
>
> My Pietenpol came in at 745 lbs., which was about 80 lbs more than I was e
xpecting. I believe most of that extra weight was in the paint that I chose
, PolyFiber=99s Aerothane polyurethane. It is very heavy, and difficu
lt to paint. I ended up putting several coats on the fuselage before I got a
decent finish with a minimum of orange peel. The only way to get it off is
to sand it off, and I know I didn=99t sand all the extra coats off. T
he wire wheels are also heavy, weighing (with tires and brakes) 25 lbs apiec
e. And the straight axle weighs quite a bit as well. The battery and the a
vionics add a bit but not as much as you=99d think, and I was expectin
g the weight they added (my original estimate, including the electrical stuf
f was 660 lbs, which would be a decent weight).
>
>
>
> End result? Mine doesn=99t climb too well with a heavy load. I lim
it myself to carrying passengers weighing no more than 180 lbs. The benefit
of this is, I can limit my passengers to pretty young women for the most pa
rt.
>
>
>
> Simplicate and add lightness!
>
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> NX899JP
>
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Weights |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Lorenzo,
I did a little "dumpster diving" on the internet and found a guy's estimate from
Better Aircraft Fabric for the Oratex 6000 dated September 2013. It shows the
price for the 1800mmX1m material to be $134.87. I think that the Oratex 600
is slightly cheaper, but I am not 100% sure on that.
Doing the Math, 1800mmX1m equals 1.8 square meters which equal 2.15 square yards,
or $62.73 per square yard. The invoice shows the cost of glue tape, etc. but
this is what I come up with for the price of the cloth itself.
I have seen this stuff first hand at OSH and I have to say, it is as strong as
you-know-what! They beat on it with a huge hammer, then took heat and pulled out
the divits in the fabric right there in seconds. Really impressive stuff.
I am strongly considering the use of Oratex for the same reasons you mentioned
- weight savings, strength, ease of use, and savings on the cost of painting equipment.
I will tell you this, though. If you want a glossy finish, then you
should move on to another covering. I would not call it dull, but it definitely
is not glossy. Works for me, but you may want a different look.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421046#421046
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Doesn't the wing fly the aircraft? It seems to me
that you can fly a wing without a fuselage, but
I'm pretty sure a fuselage ain't gonna fly without
a wing.
In a high wing ac, where is the longitudenal axis
in relation to the wing? Remember, the wing flies
the plane. Doesn't everything below it act like a
pendulum?
Clif
Always remember to go to other people's funerals.
Otherwise, they might not come to yours.
Yogi Berra
Something else, I thought about, which may or my not matter:
A wing mounted tank does have an arm of sorts, along the
longitudinal axis. In a roll, the wing tank has an arm greater than the
nose tank. It is a weight, being swung around the longitudinal axis.
Does this matter, does it effect stability? What, if anything, changes
as fuel burns?
Mike Perez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
Here is my take on how you can add extra weight.
In the wood there are a couple of considerations. Spars of 1" thickness=2C
if not routered=2C adds if memory serves about 16 lbs of additional weight
. Spruce of the optimum density is about 27 lbs/cubic foot. There are spruc
e boards that are heavier than that. If you use Douglas fir I believe it is
about 10% heavier. Plywood varies in weight and birch can weigh more than
mahogany. Adding thickness to plywood is adding weight proportional to the
extra thickness. Adding additional plywood or filler blocks adds weight .
While you can add weight in the wood selection its use pales in comparison
to the steel components. In contrast to spruce at 27 lb/cubic foot=2C ste
el weighs 500 lbs/cubic ft. . Therefore close attention to the area and thi
ckness of every metal part is very important. Using bolts and screws that a
re bigger than needed adds weight. There are shear nuts that weigh less tha
n full depth nuts and many nuts are used in shear. There are military nuts
that are very much smaller than conventional nuts. In some locations you ca
n use counter sunk heads or pan head fasteners instead of hex head bolts. B
ecause it weighs so much these little things adds up.
There are one or two areas that are really critical. Streamline struts of t
he type used on the original Pietenpol are not available. There replacement
are not longer available either. By that I mean 0.035 wall struts of small
er equivalent diameter. Today much of it is 0.065 and larger equivalent dia
meter and that is all you can buy new. If you use this material you can be
adding 10lbs or more per strut. Do this comparison. Compare the weight of
the smallest steel streamline lift strut available from Aircraft Spruce to
the weight of a 1.25`` diameter 0.035`` wall 4130 round tube. You can strea
mline a round tube with foam and 1 mm plywood and save on an aircraft perha
ps 25 to 40 lbs. I am not sure about that but do the math.
A straight axle can weigh a lot if it is 0.125`` wall but is close to half
the weight if you use 0.065`` but you need ash in the center of the tubing
at each end. The wood weighs much less than the extra steel. My first axle
was 0.049`wall but bent it slightly on my fourth rather hard landing. I use
d it for about another 3 to 5 years and it didn't bend any more but then we
nt to 0.065 and it has taken many a hard landing. You must keep it short an
d tight to bungees to reduce the bending moment.
Adding thickness to steel parts doesn't seem that much more but 0.049 weigh
s 50% more than 0.035. When substituting 4130 for mild steel you can reduce
thickness of steel in some places. I did this but I won't tell you where.
Don't do it if you are not knowledgeable on material strengths. I reduced s
ome wood dimensions in some areas but again I am not telling where you need
to figure that out.
You can substitute wood for metal=2C you can use very thin plywood over the
top of the fuselage. The wooden gear is lighter than the steel gear. While
the wheels and tires are heavier than small aircraft wheels and tires the
gear is shorter and made of wood. I think the complete assembly weighs less
. My motorcycles wheels and brakes weigh 19lbs each and I think aircraft wh
eels weigh about 5lbs less each. If you use big aircraft tires then the dif
ference is much less. Don`t trust my memory on all of this because it has
been so long=2C just do the math before making your decisions.
Adding starter motors=2C alternators=2C batteries=2C cables etc and you are
talking perhaps 75 to 100 lbs. The motor you select can be hugely differen
t. If you use a lighter one you save. In the continental A65 there is a cas
t aluminum accessory case but there is an magnesium one that weighs less.
Covering and paint need to be minimum. Dacron that is 1.6 oz works fine.
Weight is got to be part of the mind set. I was obsessed with it. My ELT an
tenna is mounted on a wooden structure inside the fuselage and is attached
with a #4 stainless steel screw.
I like Burt Rutan's attitude. If you take a part and throw it up and in fal
ls back down to the ground then it weighs too much. DO NOT ADD EXTRA STUFF.
Wooden propeller=2C not metal. No ballast for CG correction. Very light tai
l wheel with coil spring=2Cnot leaf spring. You can't use very light tailwh
eel components if you move the main wheels forward . The same thing happen
s if you move the wing back and don't adjust the gear position.
Instruments in the passenger seat are not necessary.
The Grega design adds about 100 lbs of unnecessary material=2C mostly steel
and plywood.
My Air Camper weighs 588 lbs with an ELT =2C a fairly heavy fire extinguish
er and a first aid kit but without a portable radio and no transponder. So
as I fly it normally it weighs about 600 lbs empty plus fuel plus passenge
rs. My max pilot and passenger combined weight so far is 465lbs.
The record empty weight of an Air Camper is over 900 lbs.
Every additional 25 lbs of weight requires about one additional horsepower
and the associated additional fuel capacity to feed it.
It can be a few choices that make a big differences but it is usually hundr
eds of decisions that add up.
Hope this helps=2C good luck with your project.
From: larharris2(at)msn.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 18:37:29 -0400
=0A
=0A
=0A
Good discussion thread on Weight and Balance. I have just received my packa
ge from Doc Mosher with WWs articles. Well documented info on CG and axle l
ocation. Keeping the CG location in mind as I build will have a high priori
ty. I have much more to study and learn. The CG spreadsheets recently poste
d are also valuable tools.
New question for some of you who have finished and flown your plane regardi
ng the total weight of the plane.
Like everyone=2C I want to be careful of adding unnecessary weight as I bui
ld. So far I am following the plans carefully. But like everyone=2C I am su
re=2C I have some personal customizations in the back of my mind.
WWs articles document specific data from individual planes. I pulled a hand
ful of them to examine more closely regarding Empty Weight (EW) - long/shor
t fuselage=2C A65/Corvair engines. The lightest weight airplane I studied w
as 590lb=2C the heaviest 842lb. Subtracting a 'standard' engine weight from
the EW yielded some interesting information. In most cases=2C regardless o
f the engine type or fuse. length=2C the weight of 'everything else' came o
ut to about 410-415lb. In only 2 cases I examined was there a great differe
nce - one was 581lb and the other 617lb. Not just over=2C but WAY over the
others.
Here's the question: What in the world do some builders add to their plane
s that takes a 400 lb plane to over 600 lb??
OK. Some extra instrumentation=2C tailwheel vs the original tailskid=2C bra
kes system=2C extra fuel tank=2C etc. But 200lb worth? What do I need to lo
ok out for?
Thanks for the replies.
Lorenzo
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Weights |
I like how you think Brian.
If God is your co-pilot...switch seats.
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
STILL Building...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
I can't help you Clif, I have no idea.- But you bring up good points that
I obviously didn't think about.--=0A-=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot..
.switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Adding Tank to Wing |
Crew, with all the fuel tank and CG posts, I have a general re-work questio
n.=0A=0ACurious if anyone has, in fact, added a wing tank to an already com
pleted, (built, covered, painted, cables, etc.) 3-piece wing? Maybe "added"
is not the correct word. I mean replaced the nose tank with a wing tank. I
would guess it would be best, (easier?) to just build a new wing from scra
tch.- Since my plane is close to completion, I have no intentions on chan
ging my nose tank location. But, if someday I want to make the change...has
anyone done so? Maybe it is just a matter of building a new C.S.?=0A=0AJus
t curious. =0A=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0A
KaretakerAero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
I haven't yet run a side by side comparison of prices. There is no doubt th
at Oratex is more expensive. But the savings in time=2C tools=2C and weight
are of great interest to me. I am expecting at least a 50lb savings in wei
ght. This is worth a lot to me.
Lorenzo
From: glenschweizer(at)yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 19:31:10 -0700
Hi Lorenzo I looked at the Oretex website. When checking prices=2C I b
ecame discouraged when all they said was "compared to other finishing syste
ms=2C the cost of spray guns=2C compressor setting up a booth...blah blah b
lah Oretex is comparable to other finishing systems". Please cut to the c
hase. Here. What does it cost to cover a pietenpol? Anytime a supplie
r hides behind a bunch of B S =2C I run the other direction. The concept i
s interesting=2C however
Thanks
Glen
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25=2C 2014=2C at 7:14 PM=2C larharris2 Harris w
rote:
=0A
=0A
=0A
Thanks for the input. I'm strongly considering Oratex fabric - so I don't n
eed no stinkin' paint.
Lorenzo
From: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Date: Tue=2C 25 Mar 2014 21:40:51 -0400
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
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Lorenzo=2C=0A
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My Pietenpol came in at 745 lbs.=2C which=0A
was about 80 lbs more than I was expecting. I believe most of that extra
=0A
weight was in the paint that I chose=2C PolyFiber=92s Aerothane=0A
polyurethane. It is very heavy=2C and difficult to paint. I ended up=0A
putting several coats on the fuselage before I got a decent finish with a
=0A
minimum of orange peel. The only way to get it off is to sand it off=2C an
d=0A
I know I didn=92t sand all the extra coats off. The wire wheels are=0A
also heavy=2C weighing (with tires and brakes) 25 lbs apiece. And the stra
ight=0A
axle weighs quite a bit as well. The battery and the avionics add a bit=0A
but not as much as you=92d think=2C and I was expecting the weight they add
ed=0A
(my original estimate=2C including the electrical stuff was 660 lbs=2C whic
h would=0A
be a decent weight).=0A
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End result? Mine doesn=92t climb=0A
too well with a heavy load. I limit myself to carrying passengers=0A
weighing no more than 180 lbs. The benefit of this is=2C I can limit my=0A
passengers to pretty young women for the most part.=0A
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Simplicate and add lightness!=0A
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Jack Phillips=0A
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NX899JP=0A
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Smith Mountain Lake=2C Virginia=0A
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=0A
npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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ot=3B">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Weights |
I'm starting to sound like a commercial for Oratex.
If you contact the reps in Anchorage=2C they will send a free sample kit (t
hey may ask for postage- they asked me=2C but never charged me). It include
s about 1/2 yard plus a small bottle of the glue so you can practice with i
t. I asked for more - I wanted to see and feel all the colors and feel the
two weights of fabric. They were very gracious and included some smaller cu
toffs in the package. They say that the 6000 fabric is more resistant to in
cidental damage=2C but I think the 600 weight will do just fine for me. Aga
in=2C the ease of application and weight savings are worth a lot to me.
Lorenzo
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Airplane Weights
> From: jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com
> Date: Wed=2C 26 Mar 2014 00:27:18 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
tmail.com>
>
> Lorenzo=2C
>
> I did a little "dumpster diving" on the internet and found a guy's estima
te from Better Aircraft Fabric for the Oratex 6000 dated September 2013. It
shows the price for the 1800mmX1m material to be $134.87. I think that the
Oratex 600 is slightly cheaper=2C but I am not 100% sure on that.
>
> Doing the Math=2C 1800mmX1m equals 1.8 square meters which equal 2.15 squ
are yards=2C or $62.73 per square yard. The invoice shows the cost of glue
tape=2C etc. but this is what I come up with for the price of the cloth its
elf.
>
> I have seen this stuff first hand at OSH and I have to say=2C it is as st
rong as you-know-what! They beat on it with a huge hammer=2C then took heat
and pulled out the divits in the fabric right there in seconds. Really imp
ressive stuff.
>
> I am strongly considering the use of Oratex for the same reasons you ment
ioned - weight savings=2C strength=2C ease of use=2C and savings on the cos
t of painting equipment. I will tell you this=2C though. If you want a glos
sy finish=2C then you should move on to another covering. I would not call
it dull=2C but it definitely is not glossy. Works for me=2C but you may wan
t a different look.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi=2C
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens=2C GA
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | larharris2 Harris <larharris2(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Airplane Weights |
Brian=2C Thanks for the well thought out reply. Just what I was looking fo
r. I=2C too=2C am becoming a 'weight Nazi'. I figure that if I concern myse
lf with shaving ounces now=2C I will be able to comfortably add a doodad=2C
or two=2C at the end.
Lorenzo
=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
Kudos to William Wynne, and the nice article in Aprils Sport Aviation!
Now we can all become Motorheads!
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421059#421059
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
Both fuel tank locations have worked fine. Here's why I went with a wing
tank and like it.
1. The fuel is farther from the hot engine and electrics in most
"unplanned attitudes" such as upside down or on it's nose, or in case of an
engine fire.
2. I have heard of too low fuel head pressure/fuel starvation issues
with fuselage tanks, but not with wing tanks. If you're building a big fuse
tank, it can be tricky to design it so you get the head pressure you need.
It can certainly be done, just watch it in all attitudes.
3. Fuel overhead or fuel in my lap can both be bad situations, but it's
all dependent on the incident and there's probably no way to foresee.
4. zero CG shift from full to empty.
5. I like the storage area up front.
In view of WW's accident and the very real potential for forward wing
displacement during a sudden stop, I strongly recommend flexible fuel lines
to the tank. When 799B went over, the wing DID move forward about three
inches and my hard lines held fine, but when I rebuilt her, I was sure to
use flexible lines.
There are certainly pros for fuselage tanks too, but these are the reasons I
went with a wing tank.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
I can add to several of Douwe's points (his #1 and #2)-
1. My airplane has been upside-down. Carb ice, power loss, precautionary off-field
landing on rough terrain... a weld broke on the landing gear leg and it went
over on its nose and onto its back. There was no fire, although there was
some fuel loss through the vent on the fuel tank cap. What I'd like to emphasize
with this is the point that William makes about providing some flexure in
the fuel lines and for making the cabane brace connection rigid rather than adjustable
once you've set the wing angle. Examine the photo of my cabane braces
after the roll-over and you'll see why:
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/incident/PB130010.JPG
2. The final couple of gallons (about 2.5) in my 16 gallon tank are unusable in
the 3-point or climb attitude. I demonstrated that fact on a x-c where I landed
with about that amount of fuel in the tank and as soon as I eased the tail
down, the engine quit. It's simple physics and geometry... liquid doesn't like
to flow uphill ;o) Examine a side shot of my engine, like this one:
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/engine/P5060008.JPG
Picture where the carb float bowl is relative to the bottom of the fuel tank (an
inch or two above the horizontal seam in the firewall). So Mikee is right...
I don't fly it down into that last 1/4 tank or so.
Two more things and I'm done. First, that seam in my firewall was intended to
make the bottom portion removable to provide access to the underside of the fuel
tank, the front rudder pedals, and anything else up in the forward cockpit.
Unfortunately, I forgot about the engine mount bolting on and being in the way,
so it's not removable. Sometimes good ideas aren't ;o) Second, I have never
fueled my airplane without using a ladder. I like to be able to see down
into the fuel tank because it's too easy to flood the tank and cowling if I let
it get up to the top. It sometimes happens even when I can see down into the
tank. So don't think that using a nose tank will eliminate the usefulness of
a ladder for fueling, unless you're a lot taller than I am (5'-9" in high heels).
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421069#421069
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Adding Tank to Wing |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Mike,
I don't see any reason you couldn't add a tank at a later date. It sounds like
you already have a three piece wing. I say get your plane flying and evaluate
the need for the second tank. It would be easy to build another center section
while flying/enjoying you plane. Then swap center sections on the weekend
sometime. It should be easy to do it that way.
My three cents,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421080#421080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
OK, time to let up on the tense discussions and get back to something lighter.
This is a very good (and as far as I know, pretty factual) animated video recounting
the demise of Manfred von Richthofen, aka "The Red Baron":
http://www.youtube.com/embed/ywug11nLFfg?feature=player_detailpage
It's less than 6 minutes long. I was surprised at how well the graphics portray
the control responses and aircraft behavior in the various maneuvers, and the
sound effects are quite good as well. In fact, there are a couple of spots
where I can close my eyes and the sound is very much like my engine sounds if
I push in the carb heat ;o)
The final scenes, whether completely factual or not, are pretty dramatic for an
animation.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421089#421089
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Weights |
Brian Kenny probably has the lightest Pietenpol (CF-AUK) around and his
dissertation on weight saving/adding is =9Cbang on=9D. I
cannot say that I adhered to all of the points he made when I was
building my Pietenpol (CF-AUN) during the period 1959-70, but this
isn=99t to say I was unaware of them at that time=94having
been involved in aircraft maintenance and design since 1948. There were
compromises made due to availability of materials and a shortage of cash
during that time period. If I were to build another Pietenpol today, I
would do some things differently. But there are many things I would not
change, either.
I used Sitka spruce for just about everything but the wing spars and
maintained the dimensions in the plans. At the time it was difficult and
expensive to get Sitka spruce in the size needed for the spars and I
discovered some beautiful Douglas Fir boards at a very reasonable price
and built them up to the I-beam dimensions in the plans, and used
=9Cswallow tail=9D blocks at attachment points in accordance
with good engineering practice. Since fir is a tad heavier than spruce,
these spars are a bit heavier than spruce ones would have been. Another
compromise related to cost and availability. I made the fuselage two
inches wider (26=9D) to allow more clothing to be worn in these
northern parts; a compromise that paid off big time in spite of it
adding some weight. The wing is in three pieces; a single piece wing
would have been lighter. Yet another compromise due mainly to available
working space.
Since I was going to be operating from some pretty rough grass areas, I
elected to beef up the landing gear/lift strut fuselage fittings and
added perhaps a couple of pounds by doing so. A trade-off in weight
saving for serviceability. All other fittings were pretty much according
to plans excepting the Aeronca engine mount-to-fuselage fittings which
were specially designed to use this engine mount. Virtually no weight
gain here.
Originally I used a 6 inch Scott tailwheel with the yoke and coil spring
arrangement and it was OK. Later, I made a lightweight fork assembly
with a 4 inch commercial caster wheel which was used for years,
requiring wheel replacement at a modest cost every 100 hours or so. This
saved some weight in a critical location and it worked just fine. I used
very light Shinn 6.00-6 main wheels and axles from a wrecked Taylorcraft
and this helped save some weight over other wheels I could have used.
Brian states the weight of the aircraft covering being important when
trying to save weight, and he is right! My Pietenpol originally was
covered with Grade A aircraft cotton and had a hand-rubbed doped finish.
It looked nice, but was heavier than necessary. The empty weight
(including oil) was 645 pounds with a Continental A65 engine, and this
was an accurate figure because new certified-accurate scales were used.
Fourteen years later, the a/c was stripped and recovered with Lincoln
polyester fabric, doped to a =9Cserviceable=9D (not fine)
finish. The empty weight with a C85-8 engine and wooden propeller was
now 630 pounds on the same scales. So the covering really does make a
noticeable difference (but the lighter tailwheel accounted for some of
this).
As Brian pointed out, the weight of the wing struts is significant.
Again, I had to compromise because of cost and availability. I used
Aeronca rear strut material for the center section struts (cabanes),
Aeronca front lift strut material for the front struts and Taylorcraft
rear lift strut material for the rear struts. Much heavier than
required, but it was what I had at the time.
I flew CF-AUN for 862 hours and literally made thousands of landings
over nearly 43 years. The only thing that ever broke was a somewhat-worn
tailwheel coil spring salvaged from my dad=99s old grain binder.
She could have been a tad lighter, but she was durable. I retired her
last September when I donated her to a local museum.
Cheers to all,
Graham Hansen (Alberta, Canada)
From: Brian Kenney
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:11 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Here is my take on how you can add extra weight.
In the wood there are a couple of considerations. Spars of 1" thickness,
if not routered, adds if memory serves about 16 lbs of additional
weight. Spruce of the optimum density is about 27 lbs/cubic foot. There
are spruce boards that are heavier than that. If you use Douglas fir I
believe it is about 10% heavier. Plywood varies in weight and birch can
weigh more than mahogany. Adding thickness to plywood is adding weight
proportional to the extra thickness. Adding additional plywood or filler
blocks adds weight .
While you can add weight in the wood selection its use pales in
comparison to the steel components. In contrast to spruce at 27
lb/cubic foot, steel weighs 500 lbs/cubic ft. . Therefore close
attention to the area and thickness of every metal part is very
important. Using bolts and screws that are bigger than needed adds
weight. There are shear nuts that weigh less than full depth nuts and
many nuts are used in shear. There are military nuts that are very much
smaller than conventional nuts. In some locations you can use counter
sunk heads or pan head fasteners instead of hex head bolts. Because it
weighs so much these little things adds up.
There are one or two areas that are really critical. Streamline struts
of the type used on the original Pietenpol are not available. There
replacement are not longer available either. By that I mean 0.035 wall
struts of smaller equivalent diameter. Today much of it is 0.065 and
larger equivalent diameter and that is all you can buy new. If you use
this material you can be adding 10lbs or more per strut. Do this
comparison. Compare the weight of the smallest steel streamline lift
strut available from Aircraft Spruce to the weight of a 1.25`` diameter
0.035`` wall 4130 round tube. You can streamline a round tube with foam
and 1 mm plywood and save on an aircraft perhaps 25 to 40 lbs. I am not
sure about that but do the math.
A straight axle can weigh a lot if it is 0.125`` wall but is close to
half the weight if you use 0.065`` but you need ash in the center of the
tubing at each end. The wood weighs much less than the extra steel. My
first axle was 0.049`wall but bent it slightly on my fourth rather hard
landing. I used it for about another 3 to 5 years and it didn't bend any
more but then went to 0.065 and it has taken many a hard landing. You
must keep it short and tight to bungees to reduce the bending moment.
Adding thickness to steel parts doesn't seem that much more but 0.049
weighs 50% more than 0.035. When substituting 4130 for mild steel you
can reduce thickness of steel in some places. I did this but I won't
tell you where. Don't do it if you are not knowledgeable on material
strengths. I reduced some wood dimensions in some areas but again I am
not telling where you need to figure that out.
You can substitute wood for metal, you can use very thin plywood over
the top of the fuselage. The wooden gear is lighter than the steel gear.
While the wheels and tires are heavier than small aircraft wheels and
tires the gear is shorter and made of wood. I think the complete
assembly weighs less. My motorcycles wheels and brakes weigh 19lbs each
and I think aircraft wheels weigh about 5lbs less each. If you use big
aircraft tires then the difference is much less. Don`t trust my memory
on all of this because it has been so long, just do the math before
making your decisions.
Adding starter motors, alternators, batteries, cables etc and you are
talking perhaps 75 to 100 lbs. The motor you select can be hugely
different. If you use a lighter one you save. In the continental A65
there is a cast aluminum accessory case but there is an magnesium one
that weighs less.
Covering and paint need to be minimum. Dacron that is 1.6 oz works
fine.
Weight is got to be part of the mind set. I was obsessed with it. My ELT
antenna is mounted on a wooden structure inside the fuselage and is
attached with a #4 stainless steel screw.
I like Burt Rutan's attitude. If you take a part and throw it up and in
falls back down to the ground then it weighs too much. DO NOT ADD EXTRA
STUFF.
Wooden propeller, not metal. No ballast for CG correction. Very light
tail wheel with coil spring,not leaf spring. You can't use very light
tailwheel components if you move the main wheels forward . The same
thing happens if you move the wing back and don't adjust the gear
position.
Instruments in the passenger seat are not necessary.
The Grega design adds about 100 lbs of unnecessary material, mostly
steel and plywood.
My Air Camper weighs 588 lbs with an ELT , a fairly heavy fire
extinguisher and a first aid kit but without a portable radio and no
transponder. So as I fly it normally it weighs about 600 lbs empty plus
fuel plus passengers. My max pilot and passenger combined weight so far
is 465lbs.
The record empty weight of an Air Camper is over 900 lbs.
Every additional 25 lbs of weight requires about one additional
horsepower and the associated additional fuel capacity to feed it.
It can be a few choices that make a big differences but it is usually
hundreds of decisions that add up.
Hope this helps, good luck with your project.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: larharris2(at)msn.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:37:29 -0400
Good discussion thread on Weight and Balance. I have just received my
package from Doc Mosher with WWs articles. Well documented info on CG
and axle location. Keeping the CG location in mind as I build will have
a high priority. I have much more to study and learn. The CG
spreadsheets recently posted are also valuable tools.
New question for some of you who have finished and flown your plane
regarding the total weight of the plane.
Like everyone, I want to be careful of adding unnecessary weight as I
build. So far I am following the plans carefully. But like everyone, I
am sure, I have some personal customizations in the back of my mind.
WWs articles document specific data from individual planes. I pulled a
handful of them to examine more closely regarding Empty Weight (EW) -
long/short fuselage, A65/Corvair engines. The lightest weight airplane I
studied was 590lb, the heaviest 842lb. Subtracting a 'standard' engine
weight from the EW yielded some interesting information. In most cases,
regardless of the engine type or fuse. length, the weight of 'everything
else' came out to about 410-415lb. In only 2 cases I examined was there
a great difference - one was 581lb and the other 617lb. Not just over,
but WAY over the others.
Here's the question: What in the world do some builders add to their
planes that takes a 400 lb plane to over 600 lb??
OK. Some extra instrumentation, tailwheel vs the original tailskid,
brakes system, extra fuel tank, etc. But 200lb worth? What do I need to
look out for?
Thanks for the replies.
Lorenzo
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://forums.matronics.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
03/25/14
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Weights |
| From: | Gardiner Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com> |
Great story Graham. I wish I could duplicate your pietenpol history but I do
not nave the time in my lifetime. Cheers, Gardiner
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 26, 2014, at 6:17 PM, "G Hansen" <ghans@cable-lynx.net> wrote:
> Brian Kenny probably has the lightest Pietenpol (CF-AUK) around and his di
ssertation on weight saving/adding is =9Cbang on=9D. I cannot sa
y that I adhered to all of the points he made when I was building my Pietenp
ol (CF-AUN) during the period 1959-70, but this isn=99t to say I was u
naware of them at that time=94having been involved in aircraft mainten
ance and design since 1948. There were compromises made due to availability o
f materials and a shortage of cash during that time period. If I were to bui
ld another Pietenpol today, I would do some things differently. But there ar
e many things I would not change, either.
>
> I used Sitka spruce for just about everything but the wing spars and maint
ained the dimensions in the plans. At the time it was difficult and expensiv
e to get Sitka spruce in the size needed for the spars and I discovered some
beautiful Douglas Fir boards at a very reasonable price and built them up t
o the I-beam dimensions in the plans, and used =9Cswallow tail=9D
blocks at attachment points in accordance with good engineering practice. S
ince fir is a tad heavier than spruce, these spars are a bit heavier than sp
ruce ones would have been. Another compromise related to cost and availabili
ty. I made the fuselage two inches wider (26=9D) to allow more clothi
ng to be worn in these northern parts; a compromise that paid off big time i
n spite of it adding some weight. The wing is in three pieces; a single piec
e wing would have been lighter. Yet another compromise due mainly to availab
le working space.
>
> Since I was going to be operating from some pretty rough grass areas, I el
ected to beef up the landing gear/lift strut fuselage fittings and added per
haps a couple of pounds by doing so. A trade-off in weight saving for servic
eability. All other fittings were pretty much according to plans excepting t
he Aeronca engine mount-to-fuselage fittings which were specially designed t
o use this engine mount. Virtually no weight gain here.
>
> Originally I used a 6 inch Scott tailwheel with the yoke and coil spring a
rrangement and it was OK. Later, I made a lightweight fork assembly with a 4
inch commercial caster wheel which was used for years, requiring wheel repl
acement at a modest cost every 100 hours or so. This saved some weight in a c
ritical location and it worked just fine. I used very light Shinn 6.00-6 mai
n wheels and axles from a wrecked Taylorcraft and this helped save some weig
ht over other wheels I could have used.
>
> Brian states the weight of the aircraft covering being important when tryi
ng to save weight, and he is right! My Pietenpol originally was covered with
Grade A aircraft cotton and had a hand-rubbed doped finish. It looked nice,
but was heavier than necessary. The empty weight (including oil) was 645 po
unds with a Continental A65 engine, and this was an accurate figure because n
ew certified-accurate scales were used. Fourteen years later, the a/c was st
ripped and recovered with Lincoln polyester fabric, doped to a =9Cserv
iceable=9D (not fine) finish. The empty weight with a C85-8 engine and
wooden propeller was now 630 pounds on the same scales. So the covering rea
lly does make a noticeable difference (but the lighter tailwheel accounted f
or some of this).
>
> As Brian pointed out, the weight of the wing struts is significant. Again,
I had to compromise because of cost and availability. I used Aeronca rear s
trut material for the center section struts (cabanes), Aeronca front lift s
trut material for the front struts and Taylorcraft rear lift strut material f
or the rear struts. Much heavier than required, but it was what I had at the
time.
>
> I flew CF-AUN for 862 hours and literally made thousands of landings over n
early 43 years. The only thing that ever broke was a somewhat-worn tailwheel
coil spring salvaged from my dad=99s old grain binder. She could have
been a tad lighter, but she was durable. I retired her last September when I
donated her to a local museum.
>
> Cheers to all,
>
> Graham Hansen (Alberta, Canada)
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Brian Kenney
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:11 AM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
>
> Here is my take on how you can add extra weight.
>
> In the wood there are a couple of considerations. Spars of 1" thickness, i
f not routered, adds if memory serves about 16 lbs of additional weight. Spr
uce of the optimum density is about 27 lbs/cubic foot. There are spruce boar
ds that are heavier than that. If you use Douglas fir I believe it is about 1
0% heavier. Plywood varies in weight and birch can weigh more than mahogany.
Adding thickness to plywood is adding weight proportional to the extra thi
ckness. Adding additional plywood or filler blocks adds weight .
>
> While you can add weight in the wood selection its use pales in compariso
n to the steel components. In contrast to spruce at 27 lb/cubic foot, steel
weighs 500 lbs/cubic ft. . Therefore close attention to the area and thickn
ess of every metal part is very important. Using bolts and screws that are b
igger than needed adds weight. There are shear nuts that weigh less than ful
l depth nuts and many nuts are used in shear. There are military nuts that a
re very much smaller than conventional nuts. In some locations you can use c
ounter sunk heads or pan head fasteners instead of hex head bolts. Because i
t weighs so much these little things adds up.
>
> There are one or two areas that are really critical. Streamline struts of t
he type used on the original Pietenpol are not available. There replacement a
re not longer available either. By that I mean 0.035 wall struts of smaller e
quivalent diameter. Today much of it is 0.065 and larger equivalent diameter
and that is all you can buy new. If you use this material you can be addin
g 10lbs or more per strut. Do this comparison. Compare the weight of the sma
llest steel streamline lift strut available from Aircraft Spruce to the weig
ht of a 1.25`` diameter 0.035`` wall 4130 round tube. You can streamline a r
ound tube with foam and 1 mm plywood and save on an aircraft perhaps 25 to 4
0 lbs. I am not sure about that but do the math.
>
> A straight axle can weigh a lot if it is 0.125`` wall but is close to half
the weight if you use 0.065`` but you need ash in the center of the tubing a
t each end. The wood weighs much less than the extra steel. My first axle wa
s 0.049`wall but bent it slightly on my fourth rather hard landing. I used i
t for about another 3 to 5 years and it didn't bend any more but then went t
o 0.065 and it has taken many a hard landing. You must keep it short and tig
ht to bungees to reduce the bending moment.
>
> Adding thickness to steel parts doesn't seem that much more but 0.049 weig
hs 50% more than 0.035. When substituting 4130 for mild steel you can reduc
e thickness of steel in some places. I did this but I won't tell you where. D
on't do it if you are not knowledgeable on material strengths. I reduced som
e wood dimensions in some areas but again I am not telling where you need to
figure that out.
>
> You can substitute wood for metal, you can use very thin plywood over the t
op of the fuselage. The wooden gear is lighter than the steel gear. While th
e wheels and tires are heavier than small aircraft wheels and tires the gear
is shorter and made of wood. I think the complete assembly weighs less. My m
otorcycles wheels and brakes weigh 19lbs each and I think aircraft wheels we
igh about 5lbs less each. If you use big aircraft tires then the difference i
s much less. Don`t trust my memory on all of this because it has been so lo
ng, just do the math before making your decisions.
>
> Adding starter motors, alternators, batteries, cables etc and you are talk
ing perhaps 75 to 100 lbs. The motor you select can be hugely different. If y
ou use a lighter one you save. In the continental A65 there is a cast alumin
um accessory case but there is an magnesium one that weighs less.
>
> Covering and paint need to be minimum. Dacron that is 1.6 oz works fine.
>
> Weight is got to be part of the mind set. I was obsessed with it. My ELT a
ntenna is mounted on a wooden structure inside the fuselage and is attached w
ith a #4 stainless steel screw.
>
> I like Burt Rutan's attitude. If you take a part and throw it up and in fa
lls back down to the ground then it weighs too much. DO NOT ADD EXTRA STUFF.
>
> Wooden propeller, not metal. No ballast for CG correction. Very light tail
wheel with coil spring,not leaf spring. You can't use very light tailwheel c
omponents if you move the main wheels forward . The same thing happens if y
ou move the wing back and don't adjust the gear position.
>
> Instruments in the passenger seat are not necessary.
>
> The Grega design adds about 100 lbs of unnecessary material, mostly steel a
nd plywood.
>
> My Air Camper weighs 588 lbs with an ELT , a fairly heavy fire extinguishe
r and a first aid kit but without a portable radio and no transponder. So a
s I fly it normally it weighs about 600 lbs empty plus fuel plus passengers.
My max pilot and passenger combined weight so far is 465lbs.
>
> The record empty weight of an Air Camper is over 900 lbs.
>
> Every additional 25 lbs of weight requires about one additional horsepower
and the associated additional fuel capacity to feed it.
>
>
> It can be a few choices that make a big differences but it is usually hund
reds of decisions that add up.
>
> Hope this helps, good luck with your project.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: larharris2(at)msn.com
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airplane Weights
> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:37:29 -0400
>
> Good discussion thread on Weight and Balance. I have just received my pack
age from Doc Mosher with WWs articles. Well documented info on CG and axle l
ocation. Keeping the CG location in mind as I build will have a high priorit
y. I have much more to study and learn. The CG spreadsheets recently posted a
re also valuable tools.
>
> New question for some of you who have finished and flown your plane regard
ing the total weight of the plane.
>
> Like everyone, I want to be careful of adding unnecessary weight as I buil
d. So far I am following the plans carefully. But like everyone, I am sure, I
have some personal customizations in the back of my mind.
>
> WWs articles document specific data from individual planes. I pulled a han
dful of them to examine more closely regarding Empty Weight (EW) - long/shor
t fuselage, A65/Corvair engines. The lightest weight airplane I studied was 5
90lb, the heaviest 842lb. Subtracting a 'standard' engine weight from the EW
yielded some interesting information. In most cases, regardless of the engi
ne type or fuse. length, the weight of 'everything else' came out to about 4
10-415lb. In only 2 cases I examined was there a great difference - one was 5
81lb and the other 617lb. Not just over, but WAY over the others.
>
> Here's the question: What in the world do some builders add to their plan
es that takes a 400 lb plane to over 600 lb??
>
> OK. Some extra instrumentation, tailwheel vs the original tailskid, brakes
system, extra fuel tank, etc. But 200lb worth? What do I need to look out f
or?
>
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Here Is An Interesting Read |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
How many of you have heard of the book, Aircraft Maintenance, by Daniel J. Brimm
and H. Edward Boggess? Maybe all of you have. But if you havent, it is a great
read to see how aircraft maintenance was done in the 1930s and 40s. Lest I
be accused of suggesting you copy maintenance procedures from a time long past,
I find an interesting historical read.
The best part is that you dont even have to buy it, although I did. Here is a link
to an online copy. If you ever wondered how they did those darn 5 tuck navy
splices on the control cables, simply go to page 333. I mean, Clyde Pangborn
wrote the forward. You do know who Clyde Pangborn was, dont you?
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090516238;view=1up;seq=1
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421095#421095
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Here Is An Interesting Read |
Terry,
I have a copy of this book. It was still in use in the late 1940s when I was
at technical school. Not as a text book, but as a reference. It is
historical, for sure. A relic, like me.
Graham Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: jarheadpilot82
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:26 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Here Is An Interesting Read
How many of you have heard of the book, Aircraft Maintenance, by Daniel J.
Brimm and H. Edward Boggess? Maybe all of you have. But if you havent, it
is a great read to see how aircraft maintenance was done in the 1930s and
40s. Lest I be accused of suggesting you copy maintenance procedures from
a time long past, I find an interesting historical read.
The best part is that you dont even have to buy it, although I did. Here
is a link to an online copy. If you ever wondered how they did those darn 5
tuck navy splices on the control cables, simply go to page 333. I mean,
Clyde Pangborn wrote the forward. You do know who Clyde Pangborn was,
dont you?
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89090516238;view=1up;seq=1
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421095#421095
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Here Is An Interesting Read |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Graham,
Also, like you. An informative, knowledgeable relic. [Wink]
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421099#421099
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
It's been mentioned a bit in the past, but surprisingly hasn't come up in these
recent discussions at all.
About point #2. Dick put a 4 gal (or so) header tank in the nose of 2RN. His
reasoning was (and I'm a big fan, think it's a great idea) that it prevents pretty
much any chance of the engine quitting because of sloshing in the relatively
wide and flat wing tank. At 4 gal, it's an hour reserve of fuel if necessary.
I got to thinking about it, I've got a shutoff right outside the cockpit where
the fuel exits the wing tank. If I were to lose my engine and was in the midst
of deadsticking it in, wouldn't take but a fraction of a second to reach up
and close that, which would be even more insurance against free flowing fuel in
the event of a fuel line rupture due to wing displacement.
Like everything, it's a compromise. It does complicate the fuel piping somewhat.
However, as 2RN needed some nose weight due to the relatively light A65, that
was absorbed.
Just more food for thought.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421100#421100
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Lawrence Williams <lnawms(at)yahoo.com> |
Mikeeee-
Welcome to the Council of Curmudgeons. I knew you'd make it someday.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | It's FINALLY a hangar... |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
N2RN got her tailwheel, horiz and vert stabs, elevators and rudder, WING, and an
aileron reinstalled today. FINALLY...
For the first time, a big structure is holding an airplane, so it's technically
a hangar I guess.
Tomorrow is lots of adjusting wires, controls, cotter keying and safety wiring
turnbuckles. Hopefully get the motor running.
Early next week should be in annual and ready for flight. The runway finally seems
hard enough to fly upon.
Been a long haul on this one.
[img]https://us-mg4.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=2_0_0_1_1096192_ACINiWIAABLeUzOKpwAAAJxxXlE&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1[/img]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421104#421104
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: It's FINALLY a hangar... |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
So cool to see that. Very exciting times. Fingers crossed for the engine run.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421107#421107
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated |
stuff? Center section fuel tanks vs. n
Although I need all the help I can get I wasn't
asking for help. :-)
I was, however, hoping to nudge the collective
grey matter in thoughtful directions.
Clif
It ain't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know
that just ain't so." Josh Billings
I can't help you Clif, I have no idea. But you bring up good points
that I obviously didn't think about.
Mike Perez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Red Baron video |
Thanks Oscar. Have you seen/heard of the History Channel series Dog Fights?
They are mostly computer generated animated documentaries depicting- air
combat scenarios form WWI through Desert Storm.- They look fantastic! Ve
ry well done. You may be interested in taking a look. =0A=0A=0AIf God is yo
ur co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0ASTILL Building..
.=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Neither was I. Like you said, Just trying to nudge the collective grey matt
er... =0A=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaret
aker Aero=0ASTILL Building...=0A=0A=0A=0ASomething else, I thought about,
which may or my not matter:=0A--- A wing mounted tank does have an ar
m of sorts, along the longitudinal axis. In a roll, the wing tank has an
arm greater than the nose tank. It is a weight, being swung around the lon
gitudinal axis. Does this matter, does it effect stability? What, if anythi
ng, changes as fuel burns?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Red Baron video |
| From: | "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com> |
Its from a WW! flight sim called: Rise of Flight. Its not factual its fictitious.
There are factual accounts better then the sim video posted on MvR death. The video
is good just for the enjoyment of watching. The sim RoF is free to download
and play, the cravat is you have to purchase more airplanes.
{url}http://riseofflight.com/en[/ur]l
Enjoy,
WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421118#421118
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
It's truly a great book, but I didn't know there was a second edition... I have
the first, along with the companion book, Aircraft Engines, by the same authors.
Once I started reading them, I was sure I'd be able to acquire or develop the skills
needed to build a Piet. I'd recommend them to anyone wanting to know the
old school way of doing things.
As some other threads have mentioned lately, old school isn't always what we might
do today... but there's value in knowing how things were originally done in
the aircraft world, compared to some more modern techniques.
Along with you, I think a lot of folks here will either learn something from this
book, or at least derive some pleasure reading it.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421119#421119
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Red Baron video |
I own RoF ICE. (Iron Cross Edition) Not sure if that is a free download or
not, but I paid for mine at the time.- Very impressive sim. for sure...al
ong the lines of IL2 HSFX6. =0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...switch seats.
=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | It's FINALLY a hangar... |
It'll be good to see that Pietenpol back in the air!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tools
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: It's FINALLY a hangar...
N2RN got her tailwheel, horiz and vert stabs, elevators and rudder, WING,
and an aileron reinstalled today. FINALLY...
For the first time, a big structure is holding an airplane, so it's
technically a hangar I guess.
Tomorrow is lots of adjusting wires, controls, cotter keying and safety
wiring turnbuckles. Hopefully get the motor running.
Early next week should be in annual and ready for flight. The runway
finally seems hard enough to fly upon.
Been a long haul on this one.
[img]https://us-mg4.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=2_0_0_1_1096192_ACINiWIAA
BLeUzOKpwAAAJxxXlE&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1[/img]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421104#421104
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
Cliff,
You ask, "Doesn't everything below it act like a
pendulum?
The short answer is NO, however that requires some explanation...
In a most properly designed and built airplane - the designer sets CG so the plane
is slightly nose heavy, which requires an equal and opposite tail down force
in flight. Now on the surface this may appear to be a pendulum, but in fact,
its quite different.
The purpose of nose heavy, coupled with tail down force is what gives us pitch
stability. In other words, the plane will tend to stabilize itself in flight
when you take your hands off the stick -assuming, of course, that you've trimmed
the plane for whatever pitch attitude you need.
What is somewhat bothersome is that many on the list have indicated that the elevator
on a Piet "droops" during flight, when in fact, the elevator should be
slightly up, in which case it's providing the tail down force.
Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer on the Piet is - HERESY COMING - improperly designed,
but satisfactory. If the angle of incidence of the stab were changed
somewhat, this condition would be corrected...
Personally, I'd like for Jack Phillips and a few of the others to comment on the
drooping issue, as I'd like to make sure the plane I build is flying "correctly."
I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW, BUILD IT PER THE PLANS, AND IT WILL FLY.... that still
doesn't satisfy the Mechanical Engineer I am.... just sayin.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421123#421123
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: It's FINALLY a hangar... |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Tools,
Share with everybody how
> expensive
that big hangar is, and how you did it. I think that it would encourage people
with maybe ideas of their own.
P.S. She looks like you gave her a bath from when I was at Toolstock. It IS good
to have Scott around!
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421124#421124
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
Cliff,
You ask, "Doesn't everything below it act like a
pendulum?
The short answer is NO, however that requires some explanation...
In a most properly designed and built airplane - the designer sets CG so the plane
is slightly nose heavy, which requires an equal and opposite tail down force
in flight. Now on the surface this may appear to be a pendulum, but in fact,
its quite different.
The purpose of nose heavy, coupled with tail down force is what gives us pitch
stability. In other words, the plane will tend to stabilize itself in flight
when you take your hands off the stick -assuming, of course, that you've trimmed
the plane for whatever pitch attitude you need.
What is somewhat bothersome is that many on the list have indicated that the elevator
on a Piet "droops" during flight, when in fact, the elevator should be
slightly up, in which case it's providing the tail down force.
Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer on the Piet is - HERESY COMING - improperly designed,
but satisfactory. If the angle of incidence of the stab were changed
somewhat, this condition would be corrected...
Personally, I'd like for Jack Phillips and a few of the others to comment on the
drooping issue, as I'd like to make sure the plane I build is flying "correctly."
I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW, BUILD IT PER THE PLANS, AND IT WILL FLY.... that still
doesn't satisfy the Mechanical Engineer I am.... just sayin.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421125#421125
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
Cliff,
In response to your question, "Doesn't everything below it act like a
pendulum?
The short answer is NO, that said, some explanation is required...
In a properly designed and built airplane - the designer sets the CG so that the
plane is slightly nose heavy, which, in flight, requires an equal and opposite
tail down force. Now on the surface this may appear to be a pendulum, but
in fact, its quite different.
The purpose of nose heavy, coupled with tail down force is what gives us pitch
stability. In other words, the plane will tend to stabilize itself in flight
when you take your hands off the stick - and return to whatever pitch it's trimmed
for, assuming, of course, that you've trimmed the plane for a given pitch
attitude, i.e., climb, cruise, descent.
What is somewhat bothersome is that many on the list have indicated that the elevator
on a Piet "droops" during cruise flight, when in fact, the elevator should
be slightly up, in order to provide the tail down force.
Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer on the Piet is - HERESY COMING - improperly designed,
but satisfactory. If the angle of incidence of the stab were changed
somewhat, this condition might be corrected...
Personally, I'd like for Jack Phillips and a few of the others to comment on the
drooping issue, as I'd like to make sure the plane I build is flying "correctly."
I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW, BUILD IT PER THE PLANS, AND IT WILL FLY.... that still
doesn't satisfy the Mechanical Engineer I am.... just sayin.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421126#421126
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
I just reread your post where you asked-
> A wing mounted tank does have an arm of sorts, along the longitudinal axis. In
a roll, the wing tank has an arm greater than the nose tank. It is a weight,
being swung around the longitudinal axis. Does this matter, does it effect stability?
What, if anything, changes as fuel burns?
so, are you asking about lateral cg? If building to plans the wing tank is not
appreciably wider than a nose tank, I would guess. Unless you either builder a
wider center section(i.e. a Bill Rewey center section), or you put the fuel in
true wing tanks, which I have not heard of anyone doing. So, I don't think there
is an appreciable difference between either tank in terms of the longituinal
axis, or in terms of a lateral cg.
However, I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I am not an aeronautical
engineer. But I have flown aircraft that lateral CG was a very big
deal - helicopters with rescue hoists sticking out the side of the aircraft with
people on the hoist.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421128#421128
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Yes indeed... |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Tom,
I actually saw a 4th edition (I think) published around 1960. It was listed on
eBay. It had a picture of a Pan Am Boeing 707 tail in the front pages, so I thought
it was too "modern" for my needs. [Wink]
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421129#421129
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: It's FINALLY a hangar... |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Like everything, there's a thousand ways... and Scott and I climbed a really steep
curve!
The one constant is that, unfortunately, the chicken industry is going through
quite an upheaval. Like lots of things, all the chicken houses built in the 80's
aren't economically feasible to update. Most of them are either 36' or 40'
wide and clear spanned. You can get the trusses and tin for nickels on the
dollar, or free. And seem to be available about everywhere.
I've got maybe two grand in it as it stands, 40 x 85 but not yet sided and no big
front door. It's really tall so that we can get the motorhome in it from the
side (at the back) so it wouldn't block things in, or get blocked in. Lots
of hangars have built in living areas, well, the motorhome is going to serve
that purpose in this one.
Gotta go work on a plane!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421130#421130
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
OK Tom, You asked for it...
I think the drooping elevator is largely a myth. From many angles, the
elevator looks like it droops in flight because the reference that the eye
has is the horizontal stabilizer. But the edge of the stabilizer is at an
angle to the edge of the elevator, hence the appearance of a droop. Here
are a few pictures from my files of Pietenpols in cruise flight:
This shows the difference in angles I was talking about. See the angle of
the edge of the horizontal stabilizer, compared to the edge of the elevator,
which is straight? This is what creates the illusion of tail droop. Your
eye tries to make the two edges line up.
This one is a picture of Gene Rambo flying his son, Will, in my airplane.
In this picture the horizontal tail is just about edge on, so the side of
the stabilizer doesn't give the impression that the elevator is drooping.
Looks pretty straight to me
Here's another picture of my plane in flight:
Here the angle is different and the side of the stabilizer does make it look
like the elevator is slightly down, but I assure you it's not.
Here's Mike Cuy's airplane, photo taken from mine. Note his tail - no
droop.
Here's Randy Bush's airplane, photo taken from Ryan Mueller's (now John
Hofmann's) N502R. Notice the tail. Where's the supposed droop?
Lastly, this picture shows Kevin Purtee on the left, Shad Bell in the
center, and me on the right (photo taken by Bill Church during Brodhead
2011). You will note that my tail is slightly drooped with respect to the
other two. The reason for this is that I was having to push my little
Continental A65 for all it was worth to keep up with those two Corvair
powered Pietenpols, and I had to hold the nose down to maintain my position
in the formation and keep it from climbing at that speed.
There may be a slight droop due to downwash from the wing, but other than
that, I don't think the dreaded tail droop exists at all. Build it to the
plans, and build it straight and it should fly just fine.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tkreiner
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 8:20 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel
tanks vs. n
Cliff,
You ask, "Doesn't everything below it act like a
pendulum?
The short answer is NO, however that requires some explanation...
In a most properly designed and built airplane - the designer sets CG so the
plane is slightly nose heavy, which requires an equal and opposite tail down
force in flight. Now on the surface this may appear to be a pendulum, but
in fact, its quite different.
The purpose of nose heavy, coupled with tail down force is what gives us
pitch stability. In other words, the plane will tend to stabilize itself in
flight when you take your hands off the stick -assuming, of course, that
you've trimmed the plane for whatever pitch attitude you need.
What is somewhat bothersome is that many on the list have indicated that the
elevator on a Piet "droops" during flight, when in fact, the elevator should
be slightly up, in which case it's providing the tail down force.
Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer on the Piet is - HERESY COMING -
improperly designed, but satisfactory. If the angle of incidence of the
stab were changed somewhat, this condition would be corrected...
Personally, I'd like for Jack Phillips and a few of the others to comment on
the drooping issue, as I'd like to make sure the plane I build is flying
"correctly."
I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW, BUILD IT PER THE PLANS, AND IT WILL FLY.... that
still doesn't satisfy the Mechanical Engineer I am.... just sayin.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421123#421123
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "curtdm(at)gmail.com" <curtdm(at)gmail.com> |
My theory of the elevator droop is it could be an optical illusion. The outboard
line from the elevator and horizontal stabilizer is bent because of the leading
edge of the horizontal stabilizer not having the same span as the rest of
the tail.
I had this discussion and wanted to do some testing at Brodhead last year, but
because of lack of time I was unable.
I propose those who could, prior to Brodhead, set, their elevators in a faired
(neutral) position and and somehow temporarily make a mark on their torque tube
and the cable just above.
Then go fly and compare in cruise flight if the marks are aligned yet. If not,
make another mark to show the difference.
Also while the tail is faired neutral on the ground, sit in the cockpit and look
over your shoulder and look or take a picture of the tail and let us know what
it looks like. Take pictures in slightly up and down elevator position.
This is a great exercise not only to prove my theory right/wrong, but also like
Tom said, the tail should always be creating downforce while flying and if elevators
are drooping, the horizontal stab might need some shimming and re-rigging.
My planes not flying and I'm definitely not an Opthamolagist, he'll I don't even
think I can spell.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421132#421132
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_545.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Tom being similarly educated I have thought about this too.
Yes you could conclude that the horizontal stabilizer is not at the correct
angle however here is some more to think about
I think in reality the more correct assumption is that angle of incident of
the wing is incorrect - this is important - wait for it - because these ai
rcraft are flying too fast.
The Air Camper was designed for an engine that produced less power than mo
st of the ones flying. If you reduce the power the trim changes and the ele
vator position changes and this slightly down elevator position changes fro
m slightly down to level and if you are slow enough to up. When I first bui
lt my aircraft it had an engine problem and it was producing an estimated 4
0 to 45 horsepower. I needed a fixed trim to give the elevators an up posit
ion to adjust the nose down trim.
While this a true observation it creates another mystery? Why does flying
faster not do the opposite? Asymmetrical airfoils have a negative pitching
coefficient. What this means is that the air coming off the tailing edge
is at a downward angle and this is behind both the center of pressure and c
enter of gravity so there is a torque created that wants to rotate the wing
nose down. If you have every thrown a model wing without a tail you will o
bserve that the wing just dives. The amount of this torque increases the fa
ster you fly. In many aircraft the tail or elevator trim has to be adjusted
to increase the negative tail lift or to say it another way to increase th
e down force on the tail.
So flying faster should mean the opposite to what is observed in reality wi
th an Air Camper.
Here is why I think the Air Camper is different. The wing is higher than th
e tail. As the wing downwash exits the trailing edge it hits the horizontal
tail and automatically compensates for the increasing negative pitching mo
ment. This is not a feature of just the Pietenpol but many high wing aircra
ft.
The faster I fly the more I have to push the elevator down (stick forward)-
totally counter intuitive.
The correction to this problem is if you are going to fly faster you need t
o reduce the lift on the wing at the higher speed and that means you need t
o reduce ever so slightly the wing incidence.
Here is another way to look at it and it demonstrates why this is the fix i
f you want to fly faster.
If you use more power the angle of the wing to the horizon changes. This is
because the lift is increasing with speed. You can get this wing "up on th
e step"=2C as some people call it=2C so far the bottom of the wing is on a
negative angle to the horizon. That means the by that point the fuselage i
s pointing down quite significantly.
So at that speed the wing is lifting and the fuselage is diving. So you are
really starting to increase the drag and aerodynamically the airplane tryi
ng to separate the wing from the fuselage. So decreasing the angle of incid
ence would reduce the negative angle at that speed and reduce the drag for
that speed and allow the aircraft to fly even faster.
In reality everything is just fine if the elevator is pointing down slightl
y and the aircraft is completely stable and safe.
The mystery of the Air Camper continues - why is it so good?
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section f
uel tanks vs. n
> From: tkreiner(at)gmail.com
> Date: Thu=2C 27 Mar 2014 05:30:26 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> Cliff=2C
>
> In response to your question=2C "Doesn't everything below it act like a
> pendulum?
>
> The short answer is NO=2C that said=2C some explanation is required...
>
> In a properly designed and built airplane - the designer sets the CG so t
hat the plane is slightly nose heavy=2C which=2C in flight=2C requires an e
qual and opposite tail down force. Now on the surface this may appear to b
e a pendulum=2C but in fact=2C its quite different.
>
> The purpose of nose heavy=2C coupled with tail down force is what gives u
s pitch stability. In other words=2C the plane will tend to stabilize itse
lf in flight when you take your hands off the stick - and return to whateve
r pitch it's trimmed for=2C assuming=2C of course=2C that you've trimmed th
e plane for a given pitch attitude=2C i.e.=2C climb=2C cruise=2C descent.
>
> What is somewhat bothersome is that many on the list have indicated that
the elevator on a Piet "droops" during cruise flight=2C when in fact=2C the
elevator should be slightly up=2C in order to provide the tail down force.
>
> Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer on the Piet is - HERESY COMING - improp
erly designed=2C but satisfactory. If the angle of incidence of the stab w
ere changed somewhat=2C this condition might be corrected...
>
> Personally=2C I'd like for Jack Phillips and a few of the others to comme
nt on the drooping issue=2C as I'd like to make sure the plane I build is f
lying "correctly."
>
> I KNOW=2C I KNOW=2C I KNOW=2C BUILD IT PER THE PLANS=2C AND IT WILL FLY..
.. that still doesn't satisfy the Mechanical Engineer I am.... just sayin.
>
> --------
> Tom Kreiner
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421126#421126
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
It is not an illusion but it requires two things to be happening for it to
happen and to be obvious
The aircraft need to be lightly loaded and the airplane needs to be flying
fairly fast.
If the CG is forward it is less likely to happen as well.
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section f
uel tanks vs. n
> From: curtdm(at)gmail.com
> Date: Thu=2C 27 Mar 2014 06:26:20 -0700
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>
.com>
>
> My theory of the elevator droop is it could be an optical illusion. The
outboard line from the elevator and horizontal stabilizer is bent because o
f the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer not having the same span as
the rest of the tail.
>
> I had this discussion and wanted to do some testing at Brodhead last year
=2C but because of lack of time I was unable.
>
> I propose those who could=2C prior to Brodhead=2C set=2C their elevators
in a faired (neutral) position and and somehow temporarily make a mark on
their torque tube and the cable just above.
> Then go fly and compare in cruise flight if the marks are aligned yet. I
f not=2C make another mark to show the difference.
>
> Also while the tail is faired neutral on the ground=2C sit in the cockpit
and look over your shoulder and look or take a picture of the tail and let
us know what it looks like. Take pictures in slightly up and down elevato
r position.
>
> This is a great exercise not only to prove my theory right/wrong=2C but a
lso like Tom said=2C the tail should always be creating downforce while fly
ing and if elevators are drooping=2C the horizontal stab might need some sh
imming and re-rigging.
>
> My planes not flying and I'm definitely not an Opthamolagist=2C he'll I d
on't even think I can spell.
>
> --------
> Curt Merdan
> Flower Mound=2C TX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421132#421132
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_545.jpg
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
In this picture, Lee Graybill, a retired AA pilot and longtime PT-22 flyer,
pulled up alongside. He later told me, without being asked, that he had
eyeballed my rigging and noted no elevator deflection, nor any aileron
deflection (and was impressed with the 'look' of the plane!). Admittedly, I
was pushing the airspeed a bit to the high 70's, as his Baby Ace is much
faster. I believe it is Dick Navratil who gives a lecture at Brodhead about
tweaking the horizontal stab to correct tail-low conditions. I believe that
may be useful on some airplanes depending on weight and preferred flying
speed.
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Phillips
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:15 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section
fuel tanks vs. n
OK Tom, You asked for it...
I think the drooping elevator is largely a myth. From many angles, the
elevator looks like it droops in flight because the reference that the eye
has is the horizontal stabilizer. But the edge of the stabilizer is at an
angle to the edge of the elevator, hence the appearance of a droop. Here
are a few pictures from my files of Pietenpols in cruise flight:
This shows the difference in angles I was talking about. See the angle of
the edge of the horizontal stabilizer, compared to the edge of the elevator,
which is straight? This is what creates the illusion of tail droop. Your
eye tries to make the two edges line up.
This one is a picture of Gene Rambo flying his son, Will, in my airplane.
In this picture the horizontal tail is just about edge on, so the side of
the stabilizer doesn't give the impression that the elevator is drooping.
Looks pretty straight to me
Here's another picture of my plane in flight:
Here the angle is different and the side of the stabilizer does make it look
like the elevator is slightly down, but I assure you it's not.
Here's Mike Cuy's airplane, photo taken from mine. Note his tail - no
droop.
Here's Randy Bush's airplane, photo taken from Ryan Mueller's (now John
Hofmann's) N502R. Notice the tail. Where's the supposed droop?
Lastly, this picture shows Kevin Purtee on the left, Shad Bell in the
center, and me on the right (photo taken by Bill Church during Brodhead
2011). You will note that my tail is slightly drooped with respect to the
other two. The reason for this is that I was having to push my little
Continental A65 for all it was worth to keep up with those two Corvair
powered Pietenpols, and I had to hold the nose down to maintain my position
in the formation and keep it from climbing at that speed.
There may be a slight droop due to downwash from the wing, but other than
that, I don't think the dreaded tail droop exists at all. Build it to the
plans, and build it straight and it should fly just fine.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tkreiner
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 8:20 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel
tanks vs. n
Cliff,
You ask, "Doesn't everything below it act like a
pendulum?
The short answer is NO, however that requires some explanation...
In a most properly designed and built airplane - the designer sets CG so the
plane is slightly nose heavy, which requires an equal and opposite tail down
force in flight. Now on the surface this may appear to be a pendulum, but
in fact, its quite different.
The purpose of nose heavy, coupled with tail down force is what gives us
pitch stability. In other words, the plane will tend to stabilize itself in
flight when you take your hands off the stick -assuming, of course, that
you've trimmed the plane for whatever pitch attitude you need.
What is somewhat bothersome is that many on the list have indicated that the
elevator on a Piet "droops" during flight, when in fact, the elevator should
be slightly up, in which case it's providing the tail down force.
Perhaps the horizontal stabilizer on the Piet is - HERESY COMING -
improperly designed, but satisfactory. If the angle of incidence of the
stab were changed somewhat, this condition would be corrected...
Personally, I'd like for Jack Phillips and a few of the others to comment on
the drooping issue, as I'd like to make sure the plane I build is flying
"correctly."
I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW, BUILD IT PER THE PLANS, AND IT WILL FLY.... that
still doesn't satisfy the Mechanical Engineer I am.... just sayin.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421123#421123
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel tanks |
vs. n
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
Jack,
I concur, it appears to be an optical illusion...
But if that's the case, why does Dick N give a spiel on drooping at Brodhead?
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421139#421139
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel |
tanks vs. n
Maybe he needs the money. Those forums pay incredibly well.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tkreiner
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:38 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of outdated stuff? Center section fuel
tanks vs. n
Jack,
I concur, it appears to be an optical illusion...
But if that's the case, why does Dick N give a spiel on drooping at
Brodhead?
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421139#421139
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance Spreadsheet |
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
But it shouldn't moving the axle forward help prevent noseovers? A La
Cessna 120/140s?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> Moving the axel only changes the weight on the tail while on the
> ground...not in the air.
>
> Gary
> NX308MB
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:59 PM, "dgaldrich"
> wrote:
> >
> dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
> >
> > Waaiiit a minute. Moving the location of the wheels should have very
> little, if any, effect on CG. What DOES change, from a CG perspective,
> when you move the wheels forward is the weight on the tail wheel. A couple
> of pounds increase makes a large difference since the arm is so long and
> moving the wheels forward increases it. Using Jack's spreadsheet, I added
> just 5 pounds to the tailwheel weight and it moved the CG aft by 1 inch.
> That's 20% of the total allowable range. A Scott 2000 tailwheel from a
> Piper Cub is about five pounds heavier than an original BHP tail skid. As
> Jack, and others, have said, accurate measurement is important. Bathroom
> scales are for my fat ass, not aircraft.
> >
> > You have correctly noticed that moving the wing also has almost a 1 for
> 1 relationship to CG. Moving the wing aft 1 inch moves the CG almost 1
> inch forward and is by far the most effective way of achieving a correctly
> balanced airplane. That's one of the advantages of this design is that
> it's relatively easy to do since the cabanes are equal length and parallel,
> more or less.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420910#420910
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
Douwe--
I agree with you on the value of the head the wing tank provides--it was
put there for Ford engines which don't have (and don't need complication
of) a fuel pump.
--Mac in Oregon
> Both fuel tank locations have worked fine. Here's why I went with a wing
> tank and like it.
>
>
> 1. The fuel is farther from the hot engine and electrics in most
> "unplanned attitudes" such as upside down or on it's nose, or in case of
> an
> engine fire.
> 2. I have heard of too low fuel head pressure/fuel starvation issues
> with fuselage tanks, but not with wing tanks. If you're building a big
> fuse
> tank, it can be tricky to design it so you get the head pressure you need.
> It can certainly be done, just watch it in all attitudes.
> 3. Fuel overhead or fuel in my lap can both be bad situations, but it's
> all dependent on the incident and there's probably no way to foresee.
> 4. zero CG shift from full to empty.
> 5. I like the storage area up front.
>
>
> In view of WW's accident and the very real potential for forward wing
> displacement during a sudden stop, I strongly recommend flexible fuel
> lines
> to the tank. When 799B went over, the wing DID move forward about three
> inches and my hard lines held fine, but when I rebuilt her, I was sure to
> use flexible lines.
>
>
> There are certainly pros for fuselage tanks too, but these are the reasons
> I
> went with a wing tank.
>
>
> Douwe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Douwe--
I agree with you on the value of the head the wing tank provides--it was
put there for Ford engines which don't have (and don't need complication
of) a fuel pump.
--Mac in Oregon
> Both fuel tank locations have worked fine. Here's why I went with a wing
> tank and like it.
>
>
> 1. The fuel is farther from the hot engine and electrics in most
> "unplanned attitudes" such as upside down or on it's nose, or in case of
> an
> engine fire.
> 2. I have heard of too low fuel head pressure/fuel starvation issues
> with fuselage tanks, but not with wing tanks. If you're building a big
> fuse
> tank, it can be tricky to design it so you get the head pressure you need.
> It can certainly be done, just watch it in all attitudes.
> 3. Fuel overhead or fuel in my lap can both be bad situations, but it's
> all dependent on the incident and there's probably no way to foresee.
> 4. zero CG shift from full to empty.
> 5. I like the storage area up front.
>
>
> In view of WW's accident and the very real potential for forward wing
> displacement during a sudden stop, I strongly recommend flexible fuel
> lines
> to the tank. When 799B went over, the wing DID move forward about three
> inches and my hard lines held fine, but when I rebuilt her, I was sure to
> use flexible lines.
>
>
> There are certainly pros for fuselage tanks too, but these are the reasons
> I
> went with a wing tank.
>
>
> Douwe
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | danhelsper(at)aol.com |
Uh Oh........here are some photos of a to-the-plans, properly-built (and po
wered) Pietenpol in flight. If I am not mistaken, I detect some elevator dr
oop in all of them.You know, there are consequences, to making changes to t
he original genuine BHP-authored plans. Just say'n.
And by the way, what is all this talk of "improper" angle of incidence? ...
.and "wrongly-designed" mounting-angle of the elevator? There is a lot of d
issention on this list. Disturbing.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
That's surprising -to me it is a bunch of people sharing ideas and concept
s to better understand how things work. Sorry if that disturbs you.
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator droop
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
Date: Thu=2C 27 Mar 2014 20:27:51 -0400
=0A
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=0A
Uh Oh........here are some photos of a to-the-plans=2C properly-built (and
powered) Pietenpol in flight. If I am not mistaken=2C I detect some elevato
r droop in all of them.=0A
You know=2C there are consequences=2C to making changes to the original gen
uine BHP-authored plans. Just say'n.=0A
=0A
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=0A
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And by the way=2C what is all this talk of "improper" angle of incidence? .
...and "wrongly-designed" mounting-angle of the elevator? There is a lot of
dissention on this list. Disturbing.=0A
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Puryear=2C TN=0A
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop |
| From: | Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Brian,
You do understand there's a lot of tongue-in-cheek stuff that goes on here, r
ight?
Gary
NX308MB
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 27, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Brian Kenney wrote:
>
> That's surprising -to me it is a bunch of people sharing ideas and concep
ts to better understand how things work. Sorry if that disturbs you.
>
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator droop
> From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:27:51 -0400
>
>
>
> Uh Oh........here are some photos of a to-the-plans, properly-built (and p
owered) Pietenpol in flight. If I am not mistaken, I detect some elevator dr
oop in all of them. You know, there are consequences, to making changes to t
he original genuine BHP-authored plans. Just say'n.
>
> And by the way, what is all this talk of "improper" angle of incidence? ..
..and "wrongly-designed" mounting-angle of the elevator? There is a lot of d
issention on this list. Disturbing.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Puryear, TN
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop...zoom in |
| From: | "M. Zeke Zechini" <marcus.zechini(at)gmail.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated |
stuff? Center section fuel tanks vs. n
We're so bad! :-)
Neither was I. Like you said, Just trying to nudge the collective grey
matter...
If God is your co-pilot...switch seats.
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
STILL Building...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop |
We're ALL so bad! :-)
One really good thing is that without this discussion
we wouldn't have been privy to some really great
pics!
Clif
Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is
serious. -Brendan Gill
Brian,
You do understand there's a lot of tongue-in-cheek stuff that goes on
here, right?
Gary
NX308MB
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop |
| From: | Brian Kenney <brian.kenney(at)live.ca> |
No I thought my family invented it. That's why I left home.
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 27, 2014, at 9:44 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
> You do understand there's a lot of tongue-in-cheek stuff that goes on here
, right?
>
> Gary
> NX308MB
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Brian Kenney wrote:
>>
>> That's surprising -to me it is a bunch of people sharing ideas and conce
pts to better understand how things work. Sorry if that disturbs you.
>>
>> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Elevator droop
>> From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:27:51 -0400
>>
>>
>>
>> Uh Oh........here are some photos of a to-the-plans, properly-built (and p
owered) Pietenpol in flight. If I am not mistaken, I detect some elevator dr
oop in all of them. You know, there are consequences, to making changes to t
he original genuine BHP-authored plans. Just say'n.
>>
>> And by the way, what is all this talk of "improper" angle of incidence? .
...and "wrongly-designed" mounting-angle of the elevator? There is a lot of d
issention on this list. Disturbing.
>>
>> Dan Helsper
>> Puryear, TN
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "john francis" <Mrkringles(at)msn.com> |
My new wide body 24 1/2 mount is completed by WW. He made a second while he had the jig set up and will have it at Sun-n-Fun if anyone is interested. It is listed here. http://www.flycorvair.com/products.html, it is part number 4201C.
I elected to take delivery of my mount at Brodhead but if anyone in the Dayton,
OH area is traveling to Sun n Fun and can bring it back to Ohio, I would be grateful.
John
--------
John Francis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421192#421192
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Steel-tube fuselage update - Major Welding Completed...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Hello good Piet-ple,
Well, with one more full day of welding behind me I can report that the major fuselage
structure is complete.....!!!! Now there is still a LOT more to go, with
tabs, cable guides, more tabs, a few more things like the tailwheel spring
fittings, more tabs.... however, the MAJOR structure is welded. (insert smile
here...!)
You can see the "extra" cross piece at both wing strut attach fitting locations.
As I have said in other posts, this is not the ideal solution but the two tubes
should add enough strength in those areas to work just fine.
Glad to be enjoying this adventure. I appreciate the connection to many of you
on this list that are on a similar journey - and those who have completed a Pietenpol
and are enjoying the FLYING phase of your adventure...!!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421198#421198
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/_fuselage_welded_1_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/_fuselage_welded_2_107.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/_fuselage_welded_3_136.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barry Davis" <bed(at)mindspring.com> |
| Subject: | Steel-tube fuselage update - Major Welding Completed...! |
Looks Good
Barry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of aerocarjake
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:51 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steel-tube fuselage update - Major Welding
Completed...!
-->
Hello good Piet-ple,
Well, with one more full day of welding behind me I can report that the
major fuselage structure is complete.....!!!! Now there is still a LOT more
to go, with tabs, cable guides, more tabs, a few more things like the
tailwheel spring fittings, more tabs.... however, the MAJOR structure is
welded. (insert smile here...!)
You can see the "extra" cross piece at both wing strut attach fitting
locations. As I have said in other posts, this is not the ideal solution but
the two tubes should add enough strength in those areas to work just fine.
Glad to be enjoying this adventure. I appreciate the connection to many of
you on this list that are on a similar journey - and those who have
completed a Pietenpol and are enjoying the FLYING phase of your
adventure...!!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421198#421198
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/_fuselage_welded_1_170.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/_fuselage_welded_2_107.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/_fuselage_welded_3_136.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Steel-tube fuselage update - Major Welding Completed...! |
Hi Jake,
WOW; your fuselage is really looking great. Beautiful welding.
Jim B.
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Weston <smikewest(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator droop |
if you look at the website"the vintage aviator" you will see inflight pics of a
fokker D-8 with exactly the same sort of droop on it's elevator. this is commonly
seen on parasol type aircraft, and is a product of the interaction between
the airflow coming off the trailing edge of the wing and the tail surfaces the
piet airfoil has an umcommonly high cruising lift coefficient closely related
to its large pitching moment. its a bit counterintuitive, you would think that
in order to counter the more than 900 foot pounds of torque twisting on the
wing at 80+ miles per hour that the elevator would be pointing up, but you don't
generally see that unless the "decalage" is off or a nose heavy condition
is present. this particular behavior is not by itself indicative of an aft of
C.G but it's not an excuse to be an idiot and ignore or ridicule william wynnes
heartfelt advice.just sayin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of outdated |
stuff? Center section fuel tanks vs. n
HAAA! I hear you Clif. (Enter M.J. music here...)-=0A=0AIf God is your co
-pilot...switch seats.=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0ASTILL Building...=0A
=0A=0A =0AWe're so bad! :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | danhelsper(at)aol.com |
Here are a couple more.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
I don't see any droop here, Dan. I see the illusion of droop, caused by the
outboard edge of the stabilizer not being in line with the outboard edge of
the elevator.
Look at a picture where the horizontal tail is edge-on to the camera. Droop
is an illusion, except for perhaps a slight amount due to the downwash from
the wing.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
danhelsper(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 5:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
Here are a couple more.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Damn fine looking!!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
danhelsper(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 2:34 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
Here are a couple more.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Yahoo! Account Service <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair Mounts |
John,
We have been at Sun N Fun since January. We will be kind of tight driving the van
home, but we may be able to get the mount in. If you don't get any other offers
we could do the job. We will be heading to our WV home around April 15. We
have bought a house in Miamisburg OH and will be heading there within a month
of heading north. I'm sure I will be seeing William during the show.
Skip
PS Anyone looking for a great airport home in North West WV please email me.
-----Original Message-----
>From: john francis <Mrkringles(at)msn.com>
>Sent: Mar 28, 2014 5:16 AM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Mounts
>
>
>My new wide body 24 1/2 mount is completed by WW. He made a second while he had the jig set up and will have it at Sun-n-Fun if anyone is interested. It is listed here. http://www.flycorvair.com/products.html, it is part number 4201C.
>
>I elected to take delivery of my mount at Brodhead but if anyone in the Dayton,
OH area is traveling to Sun n Fun and can bring it back to Ohio, I would be
grateful.
>
>John
>
>--------
>John Francis
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421192#421192
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More droopiness |
| From: | "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net> |
Hey Dan, I don't care about the slight droop, it just means you have a stable
flight Ha. a little control pressure takes out some bumps. I have that beautiful
picture you sent me . It is going on the wall in my work-shop.
It will remind me what my goal is, and it will be something to point to when the
non-airplane folks ask me what a pietenpol looks like.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421221#421221
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Greg Cardinal" <gcardinal(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: More droopiness |
A little droopiness is normal.
See attached photo of Bob Poore and me.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 4:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
Here are a couple more.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protec
tion is active.
http://www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel-tube fuselage update - Major Welding Completed...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks - appreciate it.......
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421228#421228
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steel-tube fuselage update - Major Welding Completed...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks Barry......
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421229#421229
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris" <catdesigns(at)att.net> |
Is this where this list has gone now? A bunch of old men talking about
droopiness.......
Well I think there is a pill that help with that.
Do not achieve..
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Cardinal
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
A little droopiness is normal.
See attached photo of Bob Poore and me.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com <mailto:danhelsper(at)aol.com>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 4:33 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
Here are a couple more.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
_____
<http://www.avast.com/>
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
<http://www.avast.com/> protection is active.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More droopiness |
I don't think that the elevator is drooping the pilot is holding forward pr
essure on the stick because of cg, stab angle, or maybe a big fat pilot who
knows???=0AOn Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:27 AM, Chris wrote:=0A =0AIs this where this list has gone now?=C2- A bunch of old
men talking about droopiness....... =0A=C2-=0AWell =C2-I think there is
a pill that help with that.=0A=C2-=0ADo not achieve=0A
=C2-=0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-piete
npol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Cardinal=0ASent: Friday,
March 28, 2014 7:37 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pi
etenpol-List: More droopiness=0A=C2-=0AA little droopiness is normal.=0AS
ee attached photo of Bob Poore and me.=0A=C2-=0AGreg Cardinal=0A----- Ori
ginal Message ----- =0A>From:danhelsper(at)aol.com =0A>To:pietenpol-list@matro
nics.com =0A>Sent:Friday, March 28, 2014 4:33 PM=0A>Subject:Pietenpol-List:
More droopiness=0A>=C2-=0A>Here are a couple more.=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan Hels
per=0A>Puryear, TN=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0A Thi
s email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protectio
n is active.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More droopiness |
| From: | "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com> |
The slightly down elevator is its normal position in level flight. This due to
the down pressure of the moving air cylinder coming off the wing an applying a
slight pressure force of downward moving air on the top of the elevator.
WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=421239#421239
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More droopiness |
| From: | danhelsper(at)aol.com |
OK....I guess.....either that or its from my fat, like Mr. Hyde said. Why d
oes somebody always have to bring that sensitive subject up?
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Phillips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 28, 2014 5:33 pm
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
I don=99t see any droop here,Dan. I see the illusion of droop, cause
d by the outboard edge of thestabilizer not being in line with the outboard
edge of the elevator.
Look at a picture where the horizontal tailis edge-on to the camera. Droop
is an illusion, except for perhaps aslight amount due to the downwash from
the wing.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
From:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-
server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of danhelsper(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 5:34PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Moredroopiness
Here are a couple more.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More droopiness |
| From: | Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Hurry up and finish your Piet, so that you're not one of us old men talking a
bout droopiness...
Gary
NX308MB
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 28, 2014, at 10:20 PM, "Chris" wrote:
>
> Is this where this list has gone now? A bunch of old men talking about dr
oopiness.......
>
> Well I think there is a pill that help with that.
>
> Do not achieve
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li
st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Cardinal
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 7:37 PM
> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More droopiness
March 22, 2014 - March 29, 2014
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-nj