Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-np
July 13, 2014 - July 26, 2014
o see if Aircraft Spruce or Wicks, sell Smile Remover, I can't get it off h
is face.=0A=0AOne Proud Papa, =0AShad
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Milestone Moment |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
AWE-sum....!!! The little drummer boy/flyer...!
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426607#426607
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Milestone Moment |
| From: | "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com> |
Fantastic Shad! You'll both remember that forever. Awesome!
Mine were each 5 when they went for their first ride in the Piet too.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426608#426608
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Spring has sprung |
| From: | "GNflyer" <rayeh48(at)yahoo.com> |
got mine a few days ago too- guess the ice melted!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426610#426610
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "Ray Krause" <Raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> |
I sure hope the results are published in the news letter, this is just what I need.
Thanks,
Ray Krause,
Building SkyScout
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426616#426616
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead
Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the
field by the white fence.
http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We
will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When they are gone, the
y are gone.
Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the 45 foot brown and black Thor
diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for great weather! We will be
arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM.
Jack & Susan
Five One Five 490-5177
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
Doing an informal head count, it appears as if Brodhead might be light of
planes this year. Sounds like some of the "regulars" (Mikee, Jack,
Perkins??, aren't able to make it. darn!
Sounds like, Greg, Dan, me, hopefully another black and yellow bird?, one or
two Pavliga's, hopefully Don??? Who am I missing
Is Matt flying in? Randy?
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | the cover of Contact! Magazine |
| From: | "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
I owe an apology to Jon Apfelbaum, truly. We are on a dive trip out of the country
at the moment and I have dozens of emails to catch up on (wi-fi is spotty
down here), but I am remiss in not giving Jon the credit for the cover photo
on the anniversary edition of the magazine. We knew it would be one of Jon's
photos on the cover the minute we saw some of the shots that he took in the photo
shoot of Dan's airplane.
The photo is one in a series that pilot and photographer took, so if the photo
looks familiar, just pull out your 2012 EAA calendar and you'll see a similar
photo but the two are different. Our thanks to Jon for making this special issue
of the magazine what it is, and definitely something that will be around for
many years to come. Perhaps Jon will agree to start working on the cover for
the 100th anniversary issue-?
There are one or two other of Jon's photos in the magazine, including one of Matt
Paxton swinging the hand-carved prop on Dan's airplane.
It's raining outside at the moment, but they tell me it doesn't matter if you get
wet when you're scuba diving ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426630#426630
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
William,
I got out my copy of Harry Riblett's GA Airfoils this morning before I went to
work and it looks like for a cruise lift coefficient of .55 the angle of attack
for his GA30-612 is around one degree positive. Looking at the ordinates for
this airfoil and assuming a wing is constructed with the front spar at 12% of
the chord and the rear spar at 60% of the chord, as Mr. Pietenpol designed it,
I calculated the front cabane should be 1/2 inch shorter than the rear cabane
to achieve this one degree positive angle of attack. This assumes that the
builder constructs the wing with the ribs butted into the bottom of the spars.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426631#426631
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: the cover of Contact! Magazine |
All good, Oscar ;) Just glad to help out.
If anyone is interested - I'm always up for shooting more pictures and woul
d love to get more air-to-air shots of Piet's at Brodhead :)
I'm just jealous that you are getting to go diving ;)
Cheers
Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: taildrags <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 14, 2014 6:45 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: the cover of Contact! Magazine
I owe an apology to Jon Apfelbaum, truly. We are on a dive trip out of the
country at the moment and I have dozens of emails to catch up on (wi-fi is
spotty down here), but I am remiss in not giving Jon the credit for the cov
er
photo on the anniversary edition of the magazine. We knew it would be one
of
Jon's photos on the cover the minute we saw some of the shots that he took
in
the photo shoot of Dan's airplane.
The photo is one in a series that pilot and photographer took, so if the ph
oto
looks familiar, just pull out your 2012 EAA calendar and you'll see a simil
ar
photo but the two are different. Our thanks to Jon for making this special
issue of the magazine what it is, and definitely something that will be aro
und
for many years to come. Perhaps Jon will agree to start working on the cov
er
for the 100th anniversary issue-?
There are one or two other of Jon's photos in the magazine, including one o
f
Matt Paxton swinging the hand-carved prop on Dan's airplane.
It's raining outside at the moment, but they tell me it doesn't matter if y
ou
get wet when you're scuba diving ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426630#426630
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Kit from Aircraft Spruce |
| From: | "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> |
Did anyone buy it? Thumbs up or down? Buy in stages?
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426634#426634
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Ray,
I will be glad to submit the rigging data to the newsletter, and one of the guys
can also put it here on this list. When Ryan and I did the CG work several years
ago, it all went directly into the newsletter for everyone to use. This list
latter played a role in getting new builders to understand the CG info and
know where to get it in printed form from Doc Mosher. Those articles are longer,
and were best introduced in a lasting printed format, the rigging info will
be comparatively brief and easier to share.
Just as with the CG stuff, the information is just a contribution to the Piet community,
for builders of all power plants to use. I spent about $70K at Embry-Riddle
and our home is literally lined with bookshelves filled with technical
aviation books going back to the 1920s, all of this was money well spent with
the goal of learning more about flight. But still, I can say that at least half
of everything I have learned about planes in 25 years came from experienced
people who just wanted to share what they new with others, the only price to
be paid was being willing to listen, consider and learn.
In contrast to all the other social graces I lack, I have always been respectful
and grateful to anyone who is teaching me anything. Still, looking back, it
is easy to identify countless times that I failed to fully appreciate the depth
or impact some information would later have on my understanding. Most of the
men I would like to go back and thank again, are gone now. I am left with emulating
their method of sharing what they knew as the only way I can express my
gratitude. I learned a lot from many good men, I have a large personal debt to
pay, I expect it to take the rest of my life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A link to a story about learning from people who are not 'pleasant' to you:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/02/24/erau-models-of-integrity-2/
A link to a story about how different leadership in Aviation is from the corporate
world:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/02/24/erau-models-of-integrity-3/
A link to a story about uncompromising standards:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/02/23/erau-models-of-integrity/
A link to a story about the man who defines "Aero-Engineer":
http://flycorvair.net/2014/02/25/erau-models-of-integrity-4/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426636#426636
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gcardinal(at)comcast.net |
Bob Poore will be there.
Another possibility will be Ryan Kallenbach's corvair powered Pietenpol. Th
is one has not been to Brodhead yet and might come down on Friday.
=C2-
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 7:43:34 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fly-ins
Doing an informal head count, it appears as if Brodhead might be light of p
lanes this year.=C2- Sounds like some of the =9Cregulars=9D (
Mikee, Jack, Perkins??, aren=99t able to make it darn!
=C2-
Sounds like, Greg, Dan, me, hopefully another black and yellow bird?, one o
r two Pavliga=99s, hopefully Don??? Who am I missing
=C2-
Is Matt flying in?=C2- Randy?
=C2-
Douwe
===
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | woodflier <woodflier(at)aol.com> |
Douwe, I'm not going to be able to make Brodhead this year. I'm in partners
hip in another airplane which we've sold but the pre-buy inspection discove
red some engine problems, and that is going to keep me here in Virginia dea
ling with that. Next year for sure!
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Sent: Mon, Jul 14, 2014 8:38 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fly-ins
Doing an informal head count, it appears as if Brodhead might be light of p
lanes this year. Sounds like some of the =9Cregulars=9D (Mikee
, Jack, Perkins??, aren=99t able to make it darn!
Sounds like, Greg, Dan, me, hopefully another black and yellow bird?, one o
r two Pavliga=99s, hopefully Don??? Who am I missing
Is Matt flying in? Randy?
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wheelharp" <wheelharp(at)gmail.com> |
Anyone going to Corvair College in Mexico, MO in September?
I'm planning on going, and taking a core to tear down.
--------
Jon Jones
Ironton, MO
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426655#426655
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
William,
At lunch time today I ran the Riblett 30-612 airfoil data through a two dimensional
analysis software that is, from what I understand, more reliable than the
Eppler code Mr. Riblett used back in the day. At a Reynolds number appropriate
for 75 mph cruise speeds and a 60" chord it gives an angle of attack of 1.104
degrees for a cruise lift coefficient of .55. The Eppler code and my eyeballing
the CL off of Mr. Riblett's graph must have been close. When you do the
calculations, the front cabanes should be .45" shorter than the rear cabanes based
on these values.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426656#426656
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Ooooops - well we all make misteasks..... |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Hello good Piet-ple,
I had a friend come over yesterday and we planned to remove one of my four wing
spars - because it was "cupped" from when the original gentleman had built it.
So we got out my small no-kerf pull saws and carefully took to sawing out the spar
at each location where it was attached to the ribs. Then we cut the spar itself
in lots of pieces to carefully remove the spar itself...... AND THEN I REALIZED
WE WERE CUTTING OUT ONE OF THE GOOD SPARS...!
Oh well, we then cut out the "cupped" rear spar in the other wing. The only good
news about all of this is that I plan to rout pockets in the new spars so the
new rear spars should be a bit lighter....!
Such are the ups and downs of homebuilt airplane "progress" :-)
Jake
Attached is a photo of the second, cupped spar in pieces as we were carefully removing
it......
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426657#426657
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/removing_cupped_spar_345.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ooooops - well we all make misteasks..... |
| From: | Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Jake,
Well, I guess it was good experience, in preparation for the spar that counts!
I know your pain as I had to replace a spar last year. I was very glad that I did
not glue my ribs to the spar!
Gary
NX308MB
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 14, 2014, at 12:26 PM, "aerocarjake" wrote:
>
>
> Hello good Piet-ple,
>
> I had a friend come over yesterday and we planned to remove one of my four wing
spars - because it was "cupped" from when the original gentleman had built
it.
>
> So we got out my small no-kerf pull saws and carefully took to sawing out the
spar at each location where it was attached to the ribs. Then we cut the spar
itself in lots of pieces to carefully remove the spar itself...... AND THEN I
REALIZED WE WERE CUTTING OUT ONE OF THE GOOD SPARS...!
>
> Oh well, we then cut out the "cupped" rear spar in the other wing. The only good
news about all of this is that I plan to rout pockets in the new spars so
the new rear spars should be a bit lighter....!
>
> Such are the ups and downs of homebuilt airplane "progress" :-)
>
> Jake
>
> Attached is a photo of the second, cupped spar in pieces as we were carefully
removing it......
>
> --------
> Jake Schultz - curator,
> Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426657#426657
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/removing_cupped_spar_345.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Ooooops - well we all make misteasks..... |
That's better than building two right or two left wings Jake but none the l
ess, feel your frustration.
Mike C.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike McGowan" <shadetree(at)socket.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
I am Mike McGowan Hallsville Mo I'm available to help
-----Original Message-----
From: wheelharp
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 1:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College
Anyone going to Corvair College in Mexico, MO in September?
I'm planning on going, and taking a core to tear down.
--------
Jon Jones
Ironton, MO
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426655#426655
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection
is active.
http://www.avast.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Jon,
I wanted to point out to everyone that the sign up pages and information sheets
for both Corvair College #30 and #31 can be found at this link:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/06/19/corvair-college-30-and-31-sign-up-now-open/
Pietenpol builders should feel more than welcome at #30, even though it is being
held September 16-19 at the Zenith factory in Mexico MO. Sebastien Heintz, president
of Zenith is a friend of ours, and he always points out that all homebuilders
are welcome at any event at his facility, not just Zenith customers.
I have not looked at the sign up sheet closely (it is taken care of online by
Ken Pavlou), but the event was 50% full last week, and we usually have a number
of Piet builders at every college.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
College #31 is November 7-9 at Barnwell SC, with Pietenpol builder and flyer PF
Beck and crew. Pietenpols are well represented at Barnwell events, and Don Harper's
plane is based there as well.
------------------------------------------------
Kevin Purtee and Shelley Tumino, aka "Axle and the IT-girl" , who will be at Brodhead,
hosted Colleges #28 and #22 in Texas. We had a good turn out of Piet builders
at both, because the local hosts always tend to draw a lot of builders
from their own group of aviation friends who are working on the same airframe.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426668#426668
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ooooops - well we all make misteasks..... |
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
Jake, thanks! I was moaning about what a bad day I was having. Then I got
your email.
After sawing through a 1x1 that was part of a mapshelf John Kuhfahl put in
(to make room for my shins) I suddenly had a heart attack that I had sawn
through a structural member. I could not find this structural member on the
plans or in any photos. Then John told me 'No that is not structural! just
a shelf." So I understand, sort of.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 2:26 PM, aerocarjake wrote:
> >
>
> Hello good Piet-ple,
>
> I had a friend come over yesterday and we planned to remove one of my four
> wing spars - because it was "cupped" from when the original gentleman had
> built it.
>
> So we got out my small no-kerf pull saws and carefully took to sawing out
> the spar at each location where it was attached to the ribs. Then we cut
> the spar itself in lots of pieces to carefully remove the spar itself......
> AND THEN I REALIZED WE WERE CUTTING OUT ONE OF THE GOOD SPARS...!
>
> Oh well, we then cut out the "cupped" rear spar in the other wing. The
> only good news about all of this is that I plan to rout pockets in the new
> spars so the new rear spars should be a bit lighter....!
>
> Such are the ups and downs of homebuilt airplane "progress" :-)
>
> Jake
>
> Attached is a photo of the second, cupped spar in pieces as we were
> carefully removing it......
>
> --------
> Jake Schultz - curator,
> Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426657#426657
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/removing_cupped_spar_345.jpg
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Doug,
That is some very good detective work. I strongly suspected that using the angle
of incidence in the plans would be over doing it, your notes confirm this. When
we go through the measurements at Brodhead, there will be more to learn. If
you also have the ability to run the BHP airfoil through the same simulation,
I would be very interested in seeing it, and then checking it against anything
we can field test.
----------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone know how many Riblett -airfoiled Piets are flying? I would be very
interested in hearing from pilots who are, what their cabane lengths are, and
what their rigging data looks like. We could include all of that information with
the Brodhead information, and hopefully have hard information builders to
use in planning their plane or tuning the one they are flying.
-----------------------------------------------------------
When we first started flying my Piet it only did 73 mph flat out. reworked many
things on the plane in the following year, and raised the top speed to 105 mph.
The plane was pretty well mannered and normal between 55-90 mph, but from 90
and up it lost some pitch stability. Flying at high speed puts the wing at a
very low angle of attack, runs the fuselage nose down, and make the stabilizer
run at an odd angle to the line of flight. There are limits to every combination,
but within the a wide speed range it is possible to fine tune the plane
to fly pretty well.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Many years ago the KR-2 community looked at the same ideas, the designs original
airfoil was an RAF-48 set at a 3.5 degree incidence, This worked ok with a 1600
cc VW and modest cruise, but it produced poor stability and odd rigging problems
when the plane had the potential of cruising 30% faster. Some builders
switched to a different airfoil, but as a general rule, all the people using more
powerful engines decreased the angle of incidence in the wing. It is considered
a great improvement on faster planes.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Took my last flight in my Pietenpol 13 years ago today. I have been trough all
four stages of Pietenpol-hood, dreaming of one, building one, having one , and
wishing I still had one. I bought my plans from Don in the spring of 1989, and
I used to devour every word in the old Piet newsletters, both the ones from
Ohio (BPN) and the ones from Iowa.(International Piet news). For my first few
years, everyone I was friends with in homebuilding was a Pietenpol person, and
I lived under a very pleasant illusion that everyone in homebuilding was probably
as nice as Pietenpol people. Working in the industry for all these years
has brought us many friends, but has also revealed that the Pietenpol building
community are a very rare oasis of salt of the earth people, and for reasons
I still can't articulately explain 25 years later, I still think of Pietenpols
as my home in homebuilding. -ww.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426673#426673
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Bush <rbush96589(at)aol.com> |
I plan on being there in my Piet, weather permitting. If not I will come wit
h my dad in the camper
Randy Bush
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 14, 2014, at 7:43 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" w
rote:
> Doing an informal head count, it appears as if Brodhead might be light of p
lanes this year. Sounds like some of the =9Cregulars=9D (Mikee,
Jack, Perkins??, aren=99t able to make it darn!
>
> Sounds like, Greg, Dan, me, hopefully another black and yellow bird?, one o
r two Pavliga=99s, hopefully Don??? Who am I missing
>
> Is Matt flying in? Randy?
>
> Douwe
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Franklin <jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
William,
I can't technically comment on airfoils but didn't P.F. Beck and another gentleman
at Barnwell make a detailed comparison of the Riblett and other Piet airfoil
sometime in the last couple of years?
See y'all at Brodhead,
John Franklin
GN-1 / 164cid Corvair (under construction)
Prairie Aire 4TA0
Needville, TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: William Wynne <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
>Sent: Jul 14, 2014 6:14 PM
>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014
>
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>Does anyone know how many Riblett -airfoiled Piets are flying? I would be very
interested in hearing from pilots who are, what their cabane lengths are, and
what their rigging data looks like. We could include all of that information
with the Brodhead information, and hopefully have hard information builders to
use in planning their plane or tuning the one they are flying.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Kit from Aircraft Spruce |
| From: | "fastj22" <fastj22(at)yahoo.com> |
I've had the wing kit on order for 3 weeks. No response from ACS about an estimated
ship date.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426683#426683
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
William,
I ran the polars a few years ago for Mr. Pietenpol's airfoil and have them on my
computer at work. I'll print them off tomorrow (if I can find them) and will
bring them to Oshkosh. I believe one of the Reynolds number I ran was appropriate
for 75 mph cruise, but will verify this. If not, I will run them again.
It should be interesting to compare the real world, empirical data you collect
at Brodhead versus the theoretical values the software comes up with.
I remember a few years ago reading on this forum of a gentleman named Lowell Frank
who had a Riblett 30-612 on his Piet. I also (vaguely) recall he had either
equal length cabanes or front cabanes one inch longer than the rear and that
he had to apply forward stick pressure at cruise and higher speeds. If I
am remembering this correctly it makes me suspect my calculations are correct
in that the front cabanes should be shorter than the rear by 1/2 of an inch in
order to establish an appropriate angle of incidence for
this airfoil on a Piet at cruising speeds.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426686#426686
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | Robert Gow <rgow(at)avionicsdesign.ca> |
Original Message
From: DonkDoug
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 21:45
Reply To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014
William,
I ran the polars a few years ago for Mr. Pietenpol's airfoil and have them on my
computer at work. I'll print them off tomorrow (if I can find them) and will
bring them to Oshkosh. I believe one of the Reynolds number I ran was appropriate
for 75 mph cruise, but will verify this. If not, I will run them again. It
should be interesting to compare the real world, empirical data you collect
at Brodhead versus the theoretical values the software comes up with.
I remember a few years ago reading on this forum of a gentleman named Lowell Frank
who had a Riblett 30-612 on his Piet. I also (vaguely) recall he had either
equal length cabanes or front cabanes one inch longer than the rear and that
he had to apply forward stick pressure at cruise and higher speeds. If I am remembering
this correctly it makes me suspect my calculations are correct in that
the front cabanes should be shorter than the rear by 1/2 of an inch in order
to establish an appropriate angle of incidence for
this airfoil on a Piet at cruising speeds.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426686#426686
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boatright, Jeffrey" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu> |
| Subject: | Kid's first Pietenpol ride |
QSBjb2xsZWdlIGJ1ZGR5IHdhcyBpbiB0b3duIGxhc3Qgd2VlayB3aXRoIGhpcyBmYW1pbHkuIEhp
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dGhlDQpvcmlnaW5hbCBtZXNzYWdlIChpbmNsdWRpbmcgYXR0YWNobWVudHMpLg0K
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Speaking of latex drying |
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
I am about to paint the wings. I have them on a cradle with wheels. It holds
both wings nose down with two straps across the leading edges. They lean
together against a foam "noodle" about 3/4 back on the chord.
My plan is to spray paint the top starting about 16 inches back from the
leading edge. then when "dry" I will rotaten them and do the bottoms. Then
when dry I will set it on a couple of tables to spray the leading edges.
The high quality sherwin williams DTM latex (acrylic) paint I am using
says it is dry to the touch in 30 min to an hour. tack free in 2-4 hours,
and to recoat in 2-4 hours. It cures in 30 days.
How long should I wait before I can lean the newly painted surface against
the noodle? How about putting the leading edge back down into the cradle?
Are there any other tips yall have? IE how do I fill the inspection holes
so I can spray around them?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of latex drying |
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
And Yes I have watched Malcolm's Latex painting seminar. Learned a lot.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Steven Dortch
wrote:
> I am about to paint the wings. I have them on a cradle with wheels. It
> holds both wings nose down with two straps across the leading edges. They
> lean together against a foam "noodle" about 3/4 back on the chord.
>
>
> My plan is to spray paint the top starting about 16 inches back from the
> leading edge. then when "dry" I will rotaten them and do the bottoms. Then
> when dry I will set it on a couple of tables to spray the leading edges.
>
>
> The high quality sherwin williams DTM latex (acrylic) paint I am using
> says it is dry to the touch in 30 min to an hour. tack free in 2-4 hours,
> and to recoat in 2-4 hours. It cures in 30 days.
>
>
> How long should I wait before I can lean the newly painted surface against
> the noodle? How about putting the leading edge back down into the cradle?
>
>
> Are there any other tips yall have? IE how do I fill the inspection holes
> so I can spray around them?
>
>
> Blue Skies,
>
> Steve D
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderx5(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of latex drying |
Steve
I'm painting the wings on my Mirco Mong currently. I laid mine flat on saw horses
(less chance of runs), sprayed 4-5 coats on one side over a 3 day period, and
let the final coat dry for 2 days before I flipped the wing. I put towels on
the saw horses for padding. For the tail surfaces I flipped them after just
a day, but I wanted to give the wing a little more time to dry due to the weight.
As for the inspection holes and such, I stuff cardboard, plastic, paper, or
whatever in the holes.
Malcolm Morrison
wienerdogaero.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Dortch" <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 11:28:39 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of latex drying
And Yes I have watched Malcolm's Latex painting seminar. Learned a lot.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Steven Dortch < steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com > wrote:
I am about to paint the wings. I have them on a cradle with wheels. It holds both
wings nose down with two straps across the leading edges. They lean together
against a foam "noodle" about 3/4 back on the chord.
My plan is to spray paint the top starting about 16 inches back from the leading
edge. then when "dry" I will rotaten them and do the bottoms. Then when dry
I will set it on a couple of tables to spray the leading edges.
The high quality sherwin williams DTM latex (acrylic) paint I am using says it
is dry to the touch in 30 min to an hour. tack free in 2-4 hours, and to recoat
in 2-4 hours. It cures in 30 days.
How long should I wait before I can lean the newly painted surface against the
noodle? How about putting the leading edge back down into the cradle?
Are there any other tips yall have? IE how do I fill the inspection holes so I
can spray around them?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
Hey Steve,
My experience with spraying latex was that while it "felt" dry, if leaned
against anything, it would still kind of stick or take an imprint. Any
clever means you can devise to move it so you don't have to stop spraying,
YET doesn't have to put much pressure on newish paint is a good thing.
I say you can't have too many inspection holes. Now's a great time to add
them to every conceivable location, just the rings and leave the fabric.
Paint right over everything and then down the road you can cut out the
fabric, paint a plate and start using it. Just the rings are pretty darn
innocuous.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Riblett incidence |
I've contacted P.F. Beck and asked if they knew the incidence measurement of
his friends' plane.
If flies very well, so whatever they did is correct.
The only other Riblett equipped Piet I am aware of is Lowell's. His wing is
shorter than stock, and according to him flies well, except (as noted)
requires forward stick at higher speeds (the only speed he flew at I think.)
I'll report back.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of latex drying |
| From: | "Charles N. Campbell" <charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> |
Actually, I've read posts where the guys say it's a lot easier to paint
latex with a foam brush and looks just as good. No personal experience,
however. Just passing along what I've read. When I get to that point I'm
going to use a brush simply because I don't have any place to spray paint.
I don't think the garage would make a very good spray booth. Chuck
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM, wrote:
> Steve
>
> I'm painting the wings on my Mirco Mong currently. I laid mine flat on saw
> horses (less chance of runs), sprayed 4-5 coats on one side over a 3 day
> period, and let the final coat dry for 2 days before I flipped the wing. I
> put towels on the saw horses for padding. For the tail surfaces I flipped
> them after just a day, but I wanted to give the wing a little more time to
> dry due to the weight. As for the inspection holes and such, I stuff
> cardboard, plastic, paper, or whatever in the holes.
>
> Malcolm Morrison
> wienerdogaero.com
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Steven Dortch" <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
> *To: *"Pietenpol"
> *Sent: *Monday, July 14, 2014 11:28:39 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of latex drying
>
> And Yes I have watched Malcolm's Latex painting seminar. Learned a lot.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Steven Dortch > wrote:
>
>> I am about to paint the wings. I have them on a cradle with wheels. It
>> holds both wings nose down with two straps across the leading edges. They
>> lean together against a foam "noodle" about 3/4 back on the chord.
>>
>>
>>
>> My plan is to spray paint the top starting about 16 inches back from the
>> leading edge. then when "dry" I will rotaten them and do the bottoms. Then
>> when dry I will set it on a couple of tables to spray the leading edges.
>>
>>
>>
>> The high quality sherwin williams DTM latex (acrylic) paint I am using
>> says it is dry to the touch in 30 min to an hour. tack free in 2-4 hours,
>> and to recoat in 2-4 hours. It cures in 30 days.
>>
>>
>>
>> How long should I wait before I can lean the newly painted surface
>> against the noodle? How about putting the leading edge back down into the
>> cradle?
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there any other tips yall have? IE how do I fill the inspection holes
>> so I can spray around them?
>>
>>
>>
>> Blue Skies,
>>
>> Steve D
>>
>> *
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
> *
>
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Ooooops - well we all make misteasks..... |
As I get closer to completion of my build, I think back over the years at w
hat I have done, the time spent to do it and the cost.- This month marks
year six for my build, (and I plan on having it finished prior to winter) a
nd I figure about a year of that was spent fixing mistakes and re-doing "gr
eat ideas" that I had.- Another 6 months or so just in cleaning the shop
area, keeping things organized and shuffling around wings, engines, cars, t
ools, etc. to make room as more pieces come together and take up space.-
=0A=0A=0AMistakes are a huge part of the learning process...I should be the
smartest one on this forum!=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch sea
ts=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "bdewenter" <anonymouse(at)woh.rr.com> |
You will definately enjoy Corvair College! While I have not been to the Zenith
factory CC yet, I have attended the past 4 at Barnwell and this year will be
#5.
William Wynn's web site(s) have a ton a articles about prior colleges, what to
expect and what to bring with you - Above all bring a positive attitude!Enjoy!
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426712#426712
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barnwell Regional Airport" <barnwellairport(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Recent question about the Riblet airfoil angle ofattack |
Fellow Pietenpolers,
Re recent comments about the Riblet airfoil on a Piet.
Last year at Broadhead, I gave a forum comparing my built to the plans
long fuselage Pietenpol with my friend Don Harpers extended length
fuselage Pietenpol built to the plans EXCEPT with the Riblet 612 airfoil
along with all the data we learned during the test flying.
[ Maybe someone has a hard copy of the information I presented. Maybe
they might share with everyone. I'm not sure I kept a copy.]
I don't want to try and repeat the forum information here again, nor
start an argument As has been said many times, READ THE ARCHIVES The
detailed information is there.
To answer two questions, here is what we did because there was no
information avaliable at that time.
1. We both used the Pietenpol plans information to build the cabane
struts. The front struts are 1" longer than the rear struts.We also did
what most builders do and that was make both front and rear struts 2"
longer than the plans call for so the front passenger can get in and out
easier. Per the plans, this should give 2 degrees angle of attack.
2. Both wings were assembled upside down with the bottom of the ribs
against the bottom of the spars.
Without going into a very long repeat of the test flight numbers, both
planes are flying well. I have about 300 hrs on my plane and Don has
about 70 hrs on his.
Both planes have a trim system consisting of a bunji cord and adel clamp
that slides up and down the control stick for pitch changes. Simple and
works well.
Anytime you make a throttle change, you also have to make a trim change.
My suggestion is....Use either airfoil... build it to the plans ....and
it will fly great.
P. F.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | learning as we go |
Funny how when you're building the first set of landing gear fittings take
three times as long as the final set. The left wing takes half
the time to build after you've built the right wing.
The rib stitching goes so much faster after you've done one elevator. T
ruing up the motorcycle wheel spokes on the second wheel takes
a third of the amount of time as the first wheel did.
When I started covering my airplane I asked my dear friend and WWII B-24 pi
lot buddy Bill Klosz "so when will I be good at this fabric covering stuff
Bill?" Bill replied: "when you're finished covering." He was right.
Mike C.
Ohio
PS-I have a little cardboard box of scrap/rejected aileron horns, instrumen
t panel attempts, landing gear fittings that I keep in the hangar and once
in a while I'll see that box and open it up and it brings back a flood of g
ood memories.
[cid:image001.jpg(at)01CFA016.2EA391B0]
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
William,
I found the polars for the Pietenpol airfoil that I had run through the analysis
software several years ago. Mr. Pietenpol had the length of the cabanes exactly
right for a cruise lift coefficient of .77. By my calculations the front
cabanes should be exactly one inch longer than the rear, which, of course, is
what the plans call for.
In another thread a gentleman stated the Piet he had built with a Riblett 30-612
and cabanes built to the plans flew great. With no disrespect to this individual
intended, and admittedly not knowing the conditions under which it was flown
or the weight of the plane in order to calculate an appropriate cruise lift
coefficient, by my calculations his airplanes angle of incidence is set approximately
3 degrees too high. This may explain why it does not perform any better
than his friends plane with the Pietenpol airfoil despite the evidence that
the computer simulations indicate that it should. I believe if he were to
shorten the front cabanes by 1.5 he would see an improvement in its performance.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426719#426719
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Recent question about the Riblet airfoil angle ofattack |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
PF,
First, let me say again, thanks for the testing you and Don have done, it is the
kind of "measure it, don't speculate" approach that I like. In my first comments
about Chris Rusch debugging his stick pressure problem, I recommended he
contact PF and Don because I have seen their planes, and I know what effort they
put into a fair evaluation of the airfoils. My suggestion was, and still is,
that Chris contact them and see if there is some large difference in tail rigging
between his plane and Don's, as Don's is known to work.
--------------------------------------------------------
My interest in the incidence is primarily to know if BHP changed anything he did
on this over time. If there is anyone out there who thinks that an incidence
change will suddenly show some advantage to the Riblett airfoil that PF and Don
didn't find, let me say that I don't think it's there. If a higher cruise speed
Piet with a Riblett would do a bit better with less incidence, my feeling
is that the BHP airfoil would do the same, and this would maintain PF and Don's
evaluation that the differences are small at best.
---------------------------------------------------------
Following PF suggestion to read the archives, I suddenly saw why he might think
this topic has been talked out.....There are dozens of headings on this in the
archives, many with 500-800 page reads. That is a lot of attention. One of the
first things I came across was a comment for John Woods about Graham Hewitt's
flying Piet/Riblett plane down under, where Graham was suggesting one degree
total incidence, which is the number Doug and I were steering toward from looking
at formulas. Again, I don't think this is magically going to make the Riblett
'better' than the original, and I have some suspicion that the Last Original
may have this kind of incidence reduction. Testing in two weeks may tell.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Something to think about for builders who thought there might be a big difference:
A Cub (and almost all pipers to the Comanche) use a USA-35B airfoil. Taylorcrafts
use a NACA-23012. There is a radical shape difference between these two,
the USA is under cambered, turbulent flow, and strong pitching moment; The
NACA is some what symmetrical, arguably laminar, and has no pitching moment. The
wings are both 60" cord, and have 31" spar spacing, and many people have built
Cubs with NACA airfoils....it makes some difference, mostly about a 15% speed
advantage and some glide ratio. To expect such changes going from the BHP
airfoil to the Riblett seems unrealistic, because there is far less difference
in design and layout between the BHP and Riblett than there is between the USA
and NACA airfoils.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the people who thought the ultimate test would be two sets of wings on the
same day on the same plane, let me point out that there is one better.........One
of each wing on the same plane in the same flight. Sound nuts? Yes, but not
if you are one of the best pilots who ever lived. There is a legend that Steve
Wittman did this on a Tailwind to evaluate the difference between the W-8 wing
and the 2nd gen airfoil. He was alleged to be happy that the plane took full
control deflection to fly 'straight' in parts of the envelope. I thought it
was a half truth or myth, but John Monett and Bill Brennan have both said it
was actually done. Brennan added that there were European aviators visiting at
the time who left with the firm convictions that Americans are nuts and Steve
Wittman deserved the accolades people bestowed on him.
------------------------------------------------------------------
My only thought on this project was that a guy with a model A, wire wheels and
straight axle gear should obviously follow the incidence in the plans. As Doug's
note points out 65 mph cruise numbers calculation show the BHP airfoil to be
at the idealized setting. But what about A guy building a light bird, with split
gear, 15-6x6's and a hand prop C-90 with a fast turning prop? Perhaps some
benefit to less incidence. My primary clue will come from looking at the Last
Original, as it is something like that kind of evolution. If nothing else builders
can learn two good lessons, how to calculate incidence.... and to just
go read the archives. -ww
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426734#426734
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
Correct, latex has to dry for a very long time before you can lay it on
anything without having it leave an imprint (like many weeks). I built two
stands consisting of a vertical 2x4 standing up on a base with two brackets
bolted on, one hooks to the wing root .090 spar brackets and the other to
the wing center .090 brackets (very simple and cheap). This allows one or
both wings to be hung vertically and only contact at those 4 brackets, this
allows you to paint the entire wing at once and let it hang for weeks to
dry.
rick h
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 6:09 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:
> Hey Steve,
>
>
> My experience with spraying latex was that while it =9Cfelt
=9D dry, if leaned
> against anything, it would still kind of stick or take an imprint. Any
> clever means you can devise to move it so you don=99t have to stop
spraying,
> YET doesn=99t have to put much pressure on newish paint is a good t
hing.
>
>
> I say you can=99t have too many inspection holes. Now=99s a
great time to add
> them to every conceivable location, just the rings and leave the fabric.
> Paint right over everything and then down the road you can cut out the
> fabric, paint a plate and start using it. Just the rings are pretty darn
> innocuous.
>
>
> Douwe
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
the design is perfect... why do people want to keep trying to find a way to
make it better?=C2- i say just build thefucker and fly =0A=0Ame =0A=0A
=0AOn Tuesday, July 15, 2014 11:10 AM, DonkDoug =0A=0AWilliam,=0A=0AI found the polars for the Piet
enpol airfoil that I had run through the analysis software several years ag
o.=C2- Mr. Pietenpol had the length of the cabanes exactly right for a cr
uise lift coefficient of .77.=C2- By my calculations the front cabanes sh
ould be exactly one inch longer than the rear, which, of course, is what th
e plans call for.=0A=0AIn another thread a gentleman stated the Piet he had
built with a Riblett 30-612 and cabanes built to the plans flew =C3=A2
=82=AC=C5=93great.=C3=A2=82=AC=C2- With no disrespect to this individu
al intended, and admittedly not knowing the conditions under which it was f
lown or the weight of the plane in order to calculate an appropriate cruise
lift coefficient, by my calculations his airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s
angle of incidence is set approximately 3 degrees too high.=C2- This may
explain why it does not perform any better than his friend=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2s plane with the Pietenpol airfoil despite the evidence that the c
omputer simulations indicate that it should.=C2- I believe if he were to
shorten the front cabanes by 1.5=C3=A2=82=AC he would see an improvement
in its performance.=0A=0ADoug Wright=0AStillwater, OK=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead t
his topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4
==C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum -=0A
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
=================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Knowlton <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com> |
UGljdHVyZSBwbGVhc2U/IA0KDQpTY290dCBLbm93bHRvbiANCg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IGlQaG9u
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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ooooops - well we all make misteasks..... |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for all the positive words. Bought the new spar blanks this morning (sitka
spruce) and just cut them to width on the table saw with a friend Ron. Who
the heck would do such a thing on an 88 degree afternoon...!! :-)
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426740#426740
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "echobravo4" <eab4(at)comcast.net> |
Oh goody!
YOU'RE back
You never cease to amaze with your mastery of the English language
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426741#426741
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderx5(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of latex drying |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Braniff1996,
Remember, this is a public forum and not a locker room or bar with your best buds.
Just an aside, but if it was truly perfect, then Mr. Pietenpol would have quit
tweaking it to make it better. It is an awesome design but perfect is probably
not the right adjective.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426744#426744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderx5(at)comcast.net |
| Subject: | Re: Speaking of latex drying |
Chuck
I tried to post a picture of my Titan Tornado, but every time a attach a picture it blanks out my email, so here's a link to the page that has the picture that I was trying to show (it's the 4th from the botom) http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/Tornado.htm . I don't think that you can get the finish shown in the picture with a brush. At least I haven't been able to. This is my Titan Tornado with Sherwinn Williams latex sprayed on, wet sanded, and polished. I've tried brushing and rolling also, and you can get a very acceptable finish that way depending on what you are after. And, you can't beat brushing and rolling for simplicity. But if you want silky smooth and glossy you are probably going to have to spray. BTW, I spray in my garage and in my basement shop with drop cloths hung from the floor joists. I do get dust, but it's easy to sand out and polish.
Malcolm Morrison
wienerdogaero.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles N. Campbell" <charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 8:55:48 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of latex drying
Actually, I've read posts where the guys say it's a lot easier to paint latex with
a foam brush and looks just as good. No personal experience, however. Just
passing along what I've read. When I get to that point I'm going to use a brush
simply because I don't have any place to spray paint. I don't think the garage
would make a very good spray booth. Chuck
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM, < gliderx5(at)comcast.net > wrote:
Steve
I'm painting the wings on my Mirco Mong currently. I laid mine flat on saw horses
(less chance of runs), sprayed 4-5 coats on one side over a 3 day period, and
let the final coat dry for 2 days before I flipped the wing. I put towels on
the saw horses for padding. For the tail surfaces I flipped them after just
a day, but I wanted to give the wing a little more time to dry due to the weight.
As for the inspection holes and such, I stuff cardboard, plastic, paper, or
whatever in the holes.
Malcolm Morrison
wienerdogaero.com
From: "Steven Dortch" < steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com >
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 11:28:39 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of latex drying
And Yes I have watched Malcolm's Latex painting seminar. Learned a lot.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Steven Dortch < steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com > wrote:
I am about to paint the wings. I have them on a cradle with wheels. It holds both
wings nose down with two straps across the leading edges. They lean together
against a foam "noodle" about 3/4 back on the chord.
My plan is to spray paint the top starting about 16 inches back from the leading
edge. then when "dry" I will rotaten them and do the bottoms. Then when dry
I will set it on a couple of tables to spray the leading edges.
The high quality sherwin williams DTM latex (acrylic) paint I am using says it
is dry to the touch in 30 min to an hour. tack free in 2-4 hours, and to recoat
in 2-4 hours. It cures in 30 days.
How long should I wait before I can lean the newly painted surface against the
noodle? How about putting the leading edge back down into the cradle?
Are there any other tips yall have? IE how do I fill the inspection holes so I
can spray around them?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp:// forums.matronics.com _blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
" target="_blank"> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List tp:// forums.matronics.com _blank"> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Recent question about the Riblet airfoil angle ofattack |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
WW
Not trying to come off as being funny. I am willing to repeat Steve Wittman's test
in anyone's Piet if you help with all the calculations and rigging. Of coarse
someone would need to be willing to offer up their plane for the flight testing.
My plane is not a candidate since it has a Cub airfoil. Angle of incidence
has a huge effect on flying and landing qualities. It would be very interesting
to see the effects.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426747#426747
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Annual Progress Report |
| From: | "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil> |
Shelley took these photos for me tonight. Tried to get the airplane into the driveway
but it wouldn't fit under the garage door. Sorry for the photographic
clutter.
Several things are not apparent in the photos. The flight controls are done.
The rigging and controls for the tail are complete. The brakes are done. We're
getting ready to install the motor. The woodworking on the wings is done and
they're stored at the hangar.
What's left: install the motor, rig the wings and get the wings struts, cover.
Looking to make Brodhead '16.
See you next week.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426749#426749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg4_999.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg3_206.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg2_199.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg1_151.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Looks WONDERFUL..... What a sculpture of art....!
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426756#426756
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
Mr. Hyde,
Let me answer your question and some you have had from earlier posts:
Why do people want to keep trying to find a way to make it (the Pietenpol
design) better?
It is called intellectual curiosity a psychological disposition shared by human
beings and higher forms of animal life. As an example, I have an old jackass
out on my farm that gets creative every once in awhile and he comes up with
new ways to knock down my fences. You should come up and hang out with him.
You two would have a lot in common and I think you could learn some things from
him.
I wonder how my pietie would fly if I didn't cover the fuse....the wood work
is nice so im thinking that not covering the fuse I could expose the planes giblets
for the world to see. it would also solve the tail heavy issue and save
lots of work and money the berlot dint have the fuse covered and it flew fine...
sort of... anyone know anyone that has done this???
I am puzzled by this question based on your response to my most recent post. To
not cover the fuselage, obviously, would not be as Mr. Pietenpol designed the
plane. Despite your vulgar and somewhat rude response to my post, in the egalitarian
spirit of this forum, I will attempt to help you with your question
about tail-heaviness anyway. William Wynn wrote an informative series of articles
on wing placement, motor mount length and other variables that effect CG in
the Brodhead Pietenpol Association Newsletter. I understand you are using a
proper Continental aircraft engine therefore the issue you would be interested
in is January 2011, page 5-7. You could also lose some weight.
In reading your posts it is obvious to me you are a man of great intellectual capacity
and wisdom. Would you mind sharing some of that by answering a few questions
yourself? I noticed you are an advocate of the use and application of
AC 43.13. I couldnt agree with you more! Im all about properly constructed and
assembled airplanes. So if the Pietenpol design is perfect, as you say, do
you recommend I construct a one-piece wing as Mr. Pietenpol designed it? And
if so, would you fly it? Are four 8d nail adequate to secure the scarf or would
you pound in a few more for good measure? What is your opinion about substituting
lag screws, instead? Maybe a little bailing wire? We dont square-bail
much up here any more but I think I could find some.
In a thread dated 21 MAR 14 William Wynne responded to your comments about the
use of auto conversions in homebuilts. He wrote:
Very nice resume. Sounds like you have been around planes for a long time.
I have not seen that BHP ever had an engine other than a Ford or a Corvair in his
personal Air campers, other than a single photo of one that briefly had a Villie
radial.
Your comment "put an airworthy AIRPLANE motor in the nose" strikes me as interesting.
Are you saying BHP didn't build his own plane the right way?
He bought his first Corvair engine in 1960. It cost about $500. My guess is that
a used $500 A-65 in 1960 frequently could be had with a free used Cub airframe
bolted to it as a package deal. I think the man wanted to use a Corvair, I
don't think he was trying to save money.
He built two new planes in the next decade, both with Corvairs. If someone builds
an exact replica of the "Last original", I think he is building arguably by
the last and most up to date set of plans. You can't get more original than that.-ww
For some reason I was unable to find your response. Would you mind answering his
question "Are you saying BHP didn't build his own plane the right way?" again?
On 24 FEB 14 you wrote:
my plans have nothing about safety wire. my ac 43-13 is full of data on when
and how to use it. I never waste time thinking about stuff that has already been
decided by very smart people. its all simple to me just do what the book says
and don't waste valuable time thinking. at 70 I have learned that time is
short...the best part about building a piet is that its a proven design. just
follow the plans, use the wood recommended in the AC, same for hardware, fabric
and paint. I will admit that I spent about 30 min deciding on the best glue
for me. I will assure any builder that makes changes will fuck up a very good
design. one thing that I learned in my 55 years in aviation leave the thinking
to others. most of us are not properly equipped to be thinking.
You obviously place great value on smart people and to leave the thinking to people
that have this ability, and to the use of the F word. How does a person
know when they are qualified to think on their own? And if they are not qualified,
how does a person develop this capacity? Would reading and contributing
to a forum such as this be a legitimate method? I also understand you are a
teacher of some sort. Do you encourage your students to think on their own or
are they simply required to provide rote answers to your questions? Do you tolerate
their use of the F word in class?
And lastly, on 11 NOV 13 you wrote:
the last pencils I bought came from a drunk indian on the street Glendale, az
My question is not if you are a racist. The answer to that is obvious. My question
for you and Mr. Dralle is how have you been allowed to remain on this forum
with your vulgar, hateful, and racist language for over a year and a half?
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426759#426759
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
Looks fantastic!
Great job!
Jon A
-----Original Message-----
From: kevinpurtee <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil>
Sent: Tue, Jul 15, 2014 8:02 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Annual Progress Report
il>
Shelley took these photos for me tonight. Tried to get the airplane into t
he
driveway but it wouldn't fit under the garage door. Sorry for the photogra
phic
clutter.
Several things are not apparent in the photos. The flight controls are don
e.
The rigging and controls for the tail are complete. The brakes are done.
We're
getting ready to install the motor. The woodworking on the wings is done a
nd
they're stored at the hangar.
What's left: install the motor, rig the wings and get the wings struts, cov
er.
Looking to make Brodhead '16.
See you next week.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426749#426749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg4_999.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg3_206.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg2_199.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/fbg1_151.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
Kevin, YOU ARE DA MAN!
I think everyone's collective "hat" is off to you sir for your resolution
and speed with which you've created another masterpiece.
See you next week, WX permitting.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Kevin and Shelly,
Beautiful, Just beautiful. It's a shame you have to cover it. Are you going to
use the same colors? I hope you do. Those colors remind me of mine before I
changed it to green. Sometimes I wish I had kept the old colors.
Keep up the good work,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426766#426766
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
| From: | "echobravo4" <eab4(at)comcast.net> |
Awesome work guys!
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426768#426768
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
"...the weight of the plane in order to calculate an appropriate cruise lif
t coefficient..." =0A=0ADoug, if I am reading your quote above correctly, a
re you saying that given that I am building my plane with the 30-612 airfoi
l, if I gave you the weight of my plane, you could, in theory, calculate th
e "correct" length cabanes for it?- I would be more than interested in th
is because my wing is the 30-612 and I plan on doing an initial W&B this su
mmer. I am curious as to what numbers you would come up with for my particu
lar plane.- As the plane sits right now, all cabanes are the same length.
I would like to know what the "in theory" lengths would be.- Any further
assistance would be appreciated.=0A=0A=0AThis has been a great thread for
me and once again, very timely.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch
seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Flying with an uncovered Fuselage |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Gents,
The question has arisen again if someone has flown their Piet without fabric on
the fuselage. The short answer is yes. My plane has back in the late 1980's.
Just around the pattern one time at 350 feet MSL. Is it a safe thing to do?
NO it is not. DON'T do it or even consider it. With all the 85 horsepower and
a 145 lb pilot, it barely made it around the pattern.
There you have it. Yes, it has been done and DON'T even consider it. Not ever,
no how, no way. Never again with my plane.
There you have it, in a nut shell. Carry on, keep building and fly safe.
Seriously,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426769#426769
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Doug,
You should not let anyone in flying tick you off to that degree, and let me share
why: After 25 years of advocating learning about planes, specifically homebuilts,
let me share 2 insights: Mr. B-1966 is actually in the majority perspective
and more importantly, you may find his attitudes and values aggravating,
but they have little effect on how much you can adhere to and enjoy your own personal
code and path
--------------------------------------------------------------
We all know that 99% of Americans, people who live in the land that invented flying,
won WWII with it, and used it as a stepping stone to the moon, want nothing
to do with light planes and are horrified by the concept of building anything
they would fly. But let's just look at pilots: 80% of pilots have no interest
in homebuilts, and have attitudes that make Mr.B sound open minded. This includes
'J-Mac' the head of EAA publications and about 90% of the management of
AOPA. I don't like this, and I complain about it when each of these organizations
wants my membership money, but it doesn't affect my personal path.
------------------------------------------------------
About 80% of the Van's RV pilots I know openly say that no one should be allowed
to modify any RV design. This is an extension of the "Its perfect, you don't
even need to know how it works" mentality. One little problem with that: The
RV-1 was a modified Stitts Playboy, and if Ray Stitts had the same attitude there
never would be an RV anything today. Countless people have told me that VanGrunsven
holds and anti-modification bias, but I ask each one if they have ever
met him personally, the answer is invariably 'no'. I then point out that I
have spent many hours in a small, closed door,industry trade group chaired by
the man, and I might be in a better position to say what the man's line of thinking
is. This opens few minds, but it doesn't affect my personal path.
------------------------------------------------------------
80% of people who claim to be homebuilders, have little interest in learning, they
just want to 'have' the plane. Few of these people would consider building
their own engine, far less building one that has it's origins in the automotive
world. These people have a sadly shallow view of what an individual can accomplish,
skewed by their own unwillingness to learn things. I used to point out
things like the Wright's were homebuilders, that BHP only used car engines,
and every power plant is built by the hands of a person somewhere, but these points
are lost to the closed minded that don't view themselves as capable of learning
it, so they extend this to thinking that no one else could either, because
that would mean that other people would be smarter, know more, be more motivated
and skilled, and that is an uncomfortable thought for them. I find people
against alternative engines to be annoying but it doesn't affect my personal
path.
---------------------------------------------------------
I find it very ironic that people who champion individuality, private property,
and rights in their words on other subjects, quite frequently can be found telling
others, what they should be 'allowed' to build, what they should be 'allowed'
to do to a kit they have purchased, what power plants people should be 'allowed'
to use, and further lecturing other individuals on how they should spend
the hours in their lives in their own workshops, and even what to think about
homebuilts. I don't care what anyone else does with their hours, dollars and
thoughts. I share my ideas and perspectives, hope they might make sense to
some others, but I have no interest in telling others what they should be allowed
to do, own or think. The reality that aviation is filled with philosophical
hypocrites annoys me, but it doesn't affect my personal path.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The personal belief that you can build something good with your own hands and fly
it, even if others around you are telling you that you will never achieve this,
did not originate with the EAA, it arguably goes back to the Wright brothers,
who adamantly rejected the mentality that planes could only be built in factories
run by professors like Langley. If BHP had listened to the people in
1928 that told him that his will to learn, design, and build were wasted, we would
have no Pietepol's today. Negative people have always been part of the landscape,
it will never change but it doesn't affect my personal path.
----------------------------------------------------------
In two weeks I will be manning my booth at Oshkosh, an event that started out as
a gathering of experimental aviators, who's actual creed was "Learn, Build and
Fly". I will politely smile when countless people will tell me they don't want
to learn anything, or build it, they just want to 'have' it. Can you guess
what personal mantra I silently repeat in my head while they talk?
------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
Idea for today: Go to you tube and listen to Johnny Cash's 1964 version of "The
ballad of Ira Hayes".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIt5v_3P_XA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426771#426771
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
What airfoil are your cabane struts?- Riblet or FC12?=0A=0AShad =0A=0A=0A
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 8:49 AM, echobravo4 wrote:
ast.net>=0A=0AAwesome work guys!=0A=0A--------=0AEarl Brown=0A=0AI may not
have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I inten
ded to be.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.ma
=============
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
Mike,
I should have been more precise in my language and said the weight the aircraft
is operated at. As William Wynne demonstrated in his opening post to this thread
that value is used to determine the lift coefficient required at cruise.
And the resulting, required lift coefficient is used to determine the correct
length of cabanes based on the coefficient of lift v. angle of attack data generated
by the airfoil simulation software and the ordinates for the airfoil.
I dont know under what conditions you will operate your Piet when it is completed
but constructing the cabanes equal in length may be about right. Here in Oklahoma,
in the summer when most of the flying is done, we can have very hot,
humid days with air densities much less than the Standard Day density that as
been used in the calculations to this point. Add to that the fact we are not
at sea level and we can see density altitudes that would require, ideally, a higher
lift coefficient at cruise and other speeds. Equal length cabanes using
the Riblett 30-612 set the chord line at 2 degrees positive relative to the top
longeron of the airframe. In level flight that would result in a lift coefficient
of .67 according to my software analysis. That value is not unrealistic
at all as an appropriate cruising speed lift coefficient on a typical summer
day in Oklahoma. Regardless, setting the incidence a bit too positive does have
some benefit in creating profile lift from the fuselage, reducing the deck
angle when landing and so on.
I say use the cabanes you have built. It will probably fly great.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426776#426776
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fill & bleeding brakes on kolb |
| From: | "barry9315" <barbob5742(at)gmail.com> |
How to fill & then bleed toe brakes on kolb mark 3 xtra. No reservior just a piston
cyclinder. [Question]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426778#426778
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
| From: | "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil> |
Shad - They're my patented "one-size-larger-than-I-meant-to-order-but-I'm-too-cheap-to-replace-them"
profile.
Should be plenty strong.
WW pointed out that the diagonals should be larger than the rod in my femur.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426779#426779
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
I had been considering hanging the wing, then I got y'all's emails. Last
night I lined the floor and the chicken wire "wall" that separates my
garage from my neighbors,1930s military housing. I put plastic over my tool
boxes and lockers, keeping the ice box with beer in it accessable. I set
fans up so they will push in through the back door and out through the
Garage door. Then I enlisted my 14 year old and several of his buddies
while I hung one wing from the ceiling by the metal attachments. I can now
get around the wing and a short step stool will get the trailing edge and
setting on the floor will do the leading edge.
The other Wing will stay in the cradle and be moved out while I paint.
After about 3 or 4 days, I will then move the hung wing it next to the
wall.
Next is to paint on my roundrel and some lettering on the wing.
After more thought, and rereading the email. I will move the hung wing and
rehang it next to the garage wall while I hang the other wing and repaint
it.
Thanks for the Advice.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Scott Knowlton
wrote:
> Picture please?
>
> Scott Knowlton
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 15, 2014, at 6:28 PM, "Rick Holland" wrote:
>
> Correct, latex has to dry for a very long time before you can lay it on
> anything without having it leave an imprint (like many weeks). I built tw
o
> stands consisting of a vertical 2x4 standing up on a base with two bracke
ts
> bolted on, one hooks to the wing root .090 spar brackets and the other to
> the wing center .090 brackets (very simple and cheap). This allows one or
> both wings to be hung vertically and only contact at those 4 brackets, th
is
> allows you to paint the entire wing at once and let it hang for weeks to
> dry.
>
> rick h
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 6:09 AM, Douwe Blumberg <
> douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Hey Steve,
>>
>>
>>
>> My experience with spraying latex was that while it =9Cfelt
=9D dry, if leaned
>> against anything, it would still kind of stick or take an imprint. Any
>> clever means you can devise to move it so you don=99t have to stop
spraying,
>> YET doesn=99t have to put much pressure on newish paint is a good
thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> I say you can=99t have too many inspection holes. Now=99s a
great time to
>> add them to every conceivable location, just the rings and leave the
>> fabric. Paint right over everything and then down the road you can cut
out
>> the fabric, paint a plate and start using it. Just the rings are pretty
>> darn innocuous.
>>
>>
>>
>> Douwe
>>
>> *
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
> Castle Rock, Colorado
> NX6819Z
>
>
> *
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
>
> *
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
Doug, thanks for the intel. I imagine there will be plenty of tweaking to d
o once I get the ship in the air. Equal length cabanes will be my starting
point.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKare
taker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Reports |
Kevin and Shelley you are making fantastic progress. It looks very good; I love
the woodburned lettering in the backs of the seat backs.
Cheers,
Jim B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
Looking at your lettering on the seat backs again it looks like it may be very
careful painting or decals? What is it? It is very nice at any rate.
Jim B.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
| From: | "kevinpurtee" <kevin.purtee(at)us.army.mil> |
Hi Jim - Shelley has a stencil cutting machine and she worked her magic.
--------
Kevin "Axel" Purtee
Rebuilding NX899KP
Austin/San Marcos, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426788#426788
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
Paul,
I am out of town tonight but when I get home tomorrow pm and have the numbers in
front of me I will be glad to crunch them for you. I suspect the angle of attack
for the 30-613.5 is slightly less for a given lift coefficient compared
to the 30-612. But what I think will make a bigger difference in determining
the cabane lengths and setting the incidence is my suspicion that the 30-613.5
will have a greater difference under the chord line, when comparing the front
to the rear spar locations, then the 30-612 does. I am curious myself and will
let you know.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426791#426791
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
Hi Kevin,
You have a very talented lady in Shelley. That lettering is really nice. Se
ts off the two cockpits beautifully.
Jim
=C2-
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
Shelly's stencil cutting magic is all over my airplane. :))
Gene
On Jul 16, 2014, at 1:56 PM, "kevinpurtee" wrote:
>
> Hi Jim - Shelley has a stencil cutting machine and she worked her magic.
>
> --------
> Kevin "Axel" Purtee
> Rebuilding NX899KP
> Austin/San Marcos, TX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426788#426788
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Annual Progress Report |
Got a little on mine, too!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Annual Progress Report
Shelly's stencil cutting magic is all over my airplane. :))
Gene
On Jul 16, 2014, at 1:56 PM, "kevinpurtee" wrote:
> -->
>
> Hi Jim - Shelley has a stencil cutting machine and she worked her magic.
>
> --------
> Kevin "Axel" Purtee
> Rebuilding NX899KP
> Austin/San Marcos, TX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426788#426788
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
Many of messages come through empty. Matt any thoughts?
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gliderx5(at)comcast.net |
Jack and Matt,
Whenever I attach something to an email it wipes out the content. It does not seem
to matter what size the attachment is. In my case I suspect Comcast and the
Xfinity email interface, but they are an easy target!
Malcolm Morrison
wienerdogaero.com
----- Original Message -----
From: jack(at)textors.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Content
Many of messages come through empty. Matt any thoughts?
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ###4th FLIGHT### |
| From: | "Chris Rusch" <rmdinfo(at)rmdbenders.com> |
Thanks for all of the information/ suggestions. We did two more flight tonight,
one with 25 lbs ballast and one with 50. Each one reduced stick pressure slightly,
but it is still there.....I also double stuck taped a digital level to the
top longeron to document the angle while at cruise. It showed it to be 0.2
to 0.5 down angle.....that seemed really good, I was expecting more. It seemed
to fly well " seeming" a little faster indicating 75 mph. My brain is telling
me I need to shorten the " rear" cabane. Now there is a bunch of information
showing the front cabane should be shorter..... This flight was at 1050 lbs
Next I am going to block the fuse level and recheck everything rigging wise using
water levels for the wings and double check squareness.
--------
NX321LR
Now test flying!!
Mitsubishi Powered
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426811#426811
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: fill & bleeding brakes on kolb |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Many systems like this have what looks like a bleed nipple at the caliper, and
a check valve on the top of the piston at the user end (which technically creates
a little bit of a reservoir).
You put the fluid in a squeeze bottle (or something similar) that you can connect
to the bleed nipple with a little hose. Then just squirt in until it comes
out the top of the piston. Viola.
Hope it works like that and this helps!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426813#426813
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
I use comcast...no apparent problem.
Gary
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 16, 2014, at 7:37 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
> Jack and Matt,
>
> Whenever I attach something to an email it wipes out the content. It does n
ot seem to matter what size the attachment is. In my case I suspect Comcast a
nd the Xfinity email interface, but they are an easy target!
>
> Malcolm Morrison
> wienerdogaero.com
>
> From: jack(at)textors.com
> To: "Pietenpol"
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:05 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Content
>
>
> Many of messages come through empty. Matt any tho -Matt Dr
alle, List =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead light this year |
| From: | "oakesje" <jill.oakes(at)umanitoba.ca> |
Adrian's Pietenpol C-GGLU is ready to go, two cylinders had super low 20/80 compression
and case started getting pressurized so thanks to help from Mark at Air
Parts and Adrian, she is back together and sounds great!
I've done some practise flights with the fabric "luggage compartment" between passenger
(my non-flying husband Rick thats game for an adventure) and fuel tank
- it works really well - thank you for the idea!!
Have the USA decal, no transponder waiver, passenger manifest ready to file...C-GGLUs
first trip across the border :)
Keen to make up some of those tie downs described in "Vintage..." they look light
weight and effective.
Planning on leaving Lyncrest Airport CJL5 in Manitoba Monday July 21st in afternoon and meeting up with the Pietenpol pilots from around Stanton - near Minneapolis. If there are Pietenpols flying from Fargo/Grand Forks areas, it would be fun to travel south together. if you're wondering what route i'm taking my SPOT link is http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0IsyoEG36BRgHxXHJsfEtuDyGOzdZ9jZ2 for this trip and enroute cell for texting is 204-771-5583 - always looking for a grass strip and another Pietenpol to check out as we meander our way southward. I can hardly wait!!!!
After Brodhead am planning on flying in to OSH on whatever day everyone is going
in on.
see you there
Jill
:D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426818#426818
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ###4th FLIGHT### |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Chris,
>From the previous calculation, adding the 50 pounds should put you about 17" CG,
in the middle of the range. Your quick test shows that moving the wing isn't
the fix, because the stick forces would be normal, as they are on many other
planes flying at that CG.
------------------------------------------
Things to note in your tests: What was the density altitude there today? Weather service said you had a 72F day and the average MSL is 1,000' in your neighborhood. You can look at the 5th column in this chart: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html
and factor in that density in the formula I put in the rigging 2014 notes. Use
.0020 (5000'DA) in place of .00237 (SL), to see the difference. You also want
to verify the airspeed with a few GPS passes. In a nutshell, the closer you work
the DA and airspeed, the better the calculation.
-------------------------------------------
As Doug pointed out, This info isn't to suggest that anyone tear apart a flying
plane or to stir debate. It is just so that people who have not gotten to that
point of their build have a chance to fine tune their own details, not based
just on calculations, but also based on measured data from flying planes.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426819#426819
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | danhelsper(at)aol.com |
And I can't see ANY of my own posts. Somebody please reply to this so I can
see if it went through.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Wed, Jul 16, 2014 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Content
I use comcast...no apparent problem.
Gary
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 16, 2014, at 7:37 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
Jack and Matt,
Whenever I attach something to an email it wipes out the content. It does n
ot seem to matter what size the attachment is. In my case I suspect Comcast
and the Xfinity email interface, but they are an easy target!
Malcolm Morrison
wienerdogaero.com
From: jack(at)textors.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Content
Many of messages come through empty. Matt any tho -Matt Dra
lle, List =========
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
//forums.matronics.com
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
Message came through Dan
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:16 AM, danhelsper(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> And I can't see ANY of my own posts. Somebody please reply to this so I ca
n see if it went through.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Puryear, TN
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
> To: pietenpol-list
> Sent: Wed, Jul 16, 2014 10:01 pm
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Content
>
> I use comcast...no apparent problem.
>
> Gary
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 16, 2014, at 7:37 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
>
>> Jack and Matt,
>>
>> Whenever I attach something to an email it wipes out the content. It does
not seem to matter what size the attachment is. In my case I suspect Comcas
t and the Xfinity email interface, but they are an easy target!
>>
>> Malcolm Morrison
>> wienerdogaero.com
>>
>> From: jack(at)textors.com
>> To: "Pietenpol"
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:05 PM
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Content
>>
>>
>> Many of messages come through empty. Matt any tho -Matt D
ralle, List =========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> //forums.matronics.com
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>
>
> tor?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
Gary's had no content
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Jack wrote:
>
> Message came through Dan
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
>> On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:16 AM, danhelsper(at)aol.com wrote:
>>
>> And I can't see ANY of my own posts. Somebody please reply to this so I c
an see if it went through.
>>
>> Dan Helsper
>> Puryear, TN
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
>> To: pietenpol-list
>> Sent: Wed, Jul 16, 2014 10:01 pm
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Content
>>
>> I use comcast...no apparent problem.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 16, 2014, at 7:37 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> Jack and Matt,
>>>
>>> Whenever I attach something to an email it wipes out the content. It doe
s not seem to matter what size the attachment is. In my case I suspect Comca
st and the Xfinity email interface, but they are an easy target!
>>>
>>> Malcolm Morrison
>>> wienerdogaero.com
>>>
>>> From: jack(at)textors.com
>>> To: "Pietenpol"
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:05 PM
>>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Content
>>>
>>>
>>> Many of messages come through empty. Matt any tho -Matt D
ralle, List =========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> //forums.matronics.com
>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>
>>
>>
>> tor?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
Here=99s some content
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2014 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Content
Gary's had no content
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Jack wrote:
Message came through Dan
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
On Jul 17, 2014, at 5:16 AM, danhelsper(at)aol.com wrote:
And I can't see ANY of my own posts. Somebody please reply to this so I
can see if it went through.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Sent: Wed, Jul 16, 2014 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: No Content
I use comcast...no apparent problem.
Gary
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 16, 2014, at 7:37 PM, gliderx5(at)comcast.net wrote:
Jack and Matt,
Whenever I attach something to an email it wipes out the content. It
does not seem to matter what size the attachment is. In my case I
suspect Comcast and the Xfinity email interface, but they are an easy
target!
Malcolm Morrison
wienerdogaero.com
_____
From: jack(at)textors.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: No Content
Many of messages come through empty. Matt any tho -Matt
Dralle, List =========
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D
//forums.matronics.com
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
tor?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D
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3D
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3D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "echobravo4" <eab4(at)comcast.net> |
That came thru Gary
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426825#426825
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "at7000ft" <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
Attached pictures of my wing hangers. 4 8' 2x4, 4 5" bolts and nuts, some scrap
1/4" ply for gussets, 8 1" .090 strips with a 1" 3/16 rod welded upright, and
8 castors. Holds a single wing for painting and drying and both wings for storage.
--------
Rick Holland
NX6819Z
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426841#426841
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20140717_074039_797.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/20140717_073753_642.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "wheelharp" <wheelharp(at)gmail.com> |
Thanks for replies, everyone. I'm signed up, and did a search of WW website to
try and find what to bring for tear down, but couldn't find anything. Not to say
there is nothing there, I just couldn't find it. I know you would probably
want to bring the obvious--- wrenches, socket set, screwdrivers, etc...but I wanted
to make sure I don't need any special pullers or anything. Are there plenty
of workbenches? I could bring my own if they are in short supply.
--------
Jon Jones
Ironton, MO
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426842#426842
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Jon,
Here is the main college page with links to almost all questions:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/31/corvair-college-reference-page/
-----------------------------
Here are examples of what builders learn:
http://flycorvair.net/2012/11/06/basic-corvair-college-skills-examples-of-learning/
-------------------------------
Things you need to run an engine at a college part 1:
http://flycorvair.net/2012/10/04/running-an-engine-at-a-college-required-items/
----------
Part 2:
http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/23/running-an-engine-at-a-college-required-items-2/
-------------------------------------
Here are photo links to all colleges, if you read the captions on colleges like
#19, 21, 22, 24, 28, 29 you can get a good idea of the prep work that will benefit
you.
http://flycorvair.net/2013/12/29/corvair-college-history-in-photos/
---------------------------------
John Franklin Piet engine running at #22 (Kevin and Shelley's place in TX)
http://flycorvair.net/2012/03/20/franklin-engine-runs-at-cc-22-kgtu-spring-break-2012/
--------------------------------
You can look at CC#21 and See Bob Dewenter's Piet engine running. In all the links are plenty of photos of guys building Piet engines, many of which are flying today. The Bell's Piet engine is in the #7 photos, Randy Bush's 500 flight hour engine is getting it's test run in the #19 photos. You can even see Doc Moshers pictures at Corvair College #1. If you are a piet builder, Consider #31 also, as this will be the 5th year we will be with PF Beck and Crew in Barnwell in November. This is the end of the year event where we award the Cherry Grove Trophy: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/18/the-cherry-grove-trophy/
---------------------------------------------
Sign up information:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/06/19/corvair-college-30-and-31-sign-up-now-open/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426844#426844
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> |
(I tried a search, but no help). I want to order enough wood to get me through
ribs and the tail section. I have a material list from Robert McKinley (revised
by Mark Chouinard) from a few years ago.
When I add up the ribs (I want enough to build 30 ribs to allow for damage, etc),
I get a total of 95 pieces at 5 ft (I plan on the one piece wing, which I'll
build in a hanger). The list has 110 pieces. I'm including all the sticks that
support the rib. Am I off (I plan on 60 pieces of 5' for capstrips, 35 pieces
of 5' for the internal stickstotal 475')?
I tried to measure the upper capstrip to factor in the shape/curve, but it still
seems a 5 foot length will work. Will 5' be long enough?
I already have a 8X4 piece of 3 ply mahogany, 1/16". I'll use it for rib gussets.
Regarding the tail section, the materials list mentions 1X1 pieces, but I don't
see 1X1 on the plans. Where are they?
Anything else I should consider?
Thank you.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426845#426845
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> |
I've had two Corvair's in my garage for a few years. I'm now about to begin disassembly.
I'd like to attend the college, but I won't have my work schedule until
August 18. Here's a few photos of my engines. One is from a Corvair Club member
(he had several engines in specially built sheds), and I'm going to start
with that one. Here's my photo page (click on photos for larger images and size
options are on the very bottom):
http://imageevent.com/hatz/piet/corvair
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426846#426846
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ordering wood |
| From: | "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> |
John,
The 1" x 1" pieces are for the "Main Beams".
These are the pieces that the hinges get attached to.
As shown in ... the plans.
(see attachment)
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426848#426848
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/empennage_755.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ordering wood |
| From: | "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> |
One more thing.
Any plywood you use for structural components (gussets, etc.) should be either
Aircraft Plywood or Marine Plywood. The glues used to make the plywood need to
be waterproof.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426859#426859
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rib Dimensions Drawing |
| From: | "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> |
I attempted to draw the rib based on the measurements shown on the drawing. While
it looks like the full size drawing, I can't get the two to line up. Right
off the bat, the drawing is 60.125 (when adding all the lengths); a tad longer
than the 60" published chord. Maybe the depicted measurements are off?
If I use the full size drawing (assuming it's correct), it seems I'll have to move
each spar a slight bit to achieve the depicted spacing. Having said that,
I heard once that Piper allowed up to a 1/4" of slop, so maybe I shouldn't worry
about it.
How much deviation is acceptable? 1/4" OK?
I'm thinking about which way to go:
-use the full size drawing as is.
-use the full size drawing and move spars 1/16" each to achieve proper space.
-use the layout I drew based on the dimensions on the drawing.
On the subject of measurements, I've seen that all rulers are off a bit (I measured
all my rulers). I try to use the same ruler consistently.
Thank you.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426861#426861
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ordering wood |
| From: | "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> |
Thank you Bill; good point to mention there about plywood. Everything I have is
from Wicks or Aircraft Spruce. I have a large supply of T-88. I hate asking questions,
but sometimes I can't help myself. That 1X1 got by me. Thanks again.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426862#426862
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
I haven't had my own for some time. What I found
was, and is, that they are not being transfered
from the sent file. I just read them in there if I
need too. It just happened one day a while back.
One day there in my inbox, the next not. I wonder
if it's my provider trying to streamline things. And
now yours too.
Neferous ba... oops!
Clif
Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity."
And I can't see ANY of my own posts. Somebody please reply to this so
I can see if it went through.
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
Paul, Mike and any other Riblett builders out there,
So in calculating incidence angles for the Riblett airfoil to this point I had
a nagging suspicion that something was being left out. After getting out my old
textbooks tonight I discovered I was right.
Determining the lift coefficient required at cruise from aircraft operating weight,
speed and air density is correct but to determine the incidence angle that
should be set for cruising speeds the aspect ratio of the wing and the angle
of attack at which zero lift is created must also be factored in. Doing so I
found that for the operating weight of 1150 lbs. that we have been using and
a speed of 75 mph on a Standard Day both the Riblett 30-612 and 30-613.5 should
have an incidence angle set at about 3 degrees positive. That works out to
the front cabane being longer than the rear.
For those of you that have built your plane with equal length cabanes this length
would be appropriate for a cruising speed coefficient of lift of about .46.
One would see that cruise speed lift coefficient at lighter operating weights,
cooler than Standard Day temperatures, lower altitudes, higher speeds and combinations
of these conditions.
For those with front cabanes one inch longer than the rear the resulting incidence
would be appropriate for conditions that produce a cruising speed lift coefficient
of about .62. This would be appropriate for heavier operating weights,
slower speeds, hotter days, higher altitudes, less dense air and combinations
of these variables.
I apologize for any confusion I may have created with my earlier posts.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426874#426874
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Doug,
The formula I stuck up in the original post is valid, but as you mention a simplification.
I wanted to show people some of the factors at work without bogging
it down with every factor that can be brought in. In the end, I think the most
useful element of the project will be the collection of examples of flying
planes. A flying plane is obviously taking all real world factors into account
in correct proportion.
---------------------------------------
Two other elements that come into play are the fact that few textbook examples
are based around wing loading as light as a Piet, and we still have to account
for the wash out is the plane uses it. My feeling is that these may moderate
a lot of the aspect ratio factor.
----------------------------------------
There is a lot of individuality to each snowflake in the storm, and I doubt that
making a conclusion based on one two or three observations would be valid, but
as Doug is getting at the data will likely point at trends in the right direction
or good starting points for builders. If one plane with a different angle
has good performance, it could easily be attributable to a dozen other factors.
However, if every plane over 85 hp flies 2 degrees nose low, that is probably
worth looking at in detail.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426876#426876
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "Charles N. Campbell" <charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> |
Suggest you drain the oil, then put in something like kerosene for a
cleaner and turn the engine over several times with the cleaner in it, then
drain the case again. Then when you get to college the engine will be
clean on the inside and you won't spread dirty oil everywhere. There will
be plenty of benches. Chuck
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:02 PM, wheelharp wrote:
>
> Thanks for replies, everyone. I'm signed up, and did a search of WW
> website to try and find what to bring for tear down, but couldn't find
> anything. Not to say there is nothing there, I just couldn't find it. I
> know you would probably want to bring the obvious--- wrenches, socket set,
> screwdrivers, etc...but I wanted to make sure I don't need any special
> pullers or anything. Are there plenty of workbenches? I could bring my own
> if they are in short supply.
>
> --------
> Jon Jones
> Ironton, MO
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426842#426842
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ordering wood |
| From: | Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> |
John,
I have a cutting list on my web site (http://www.cpc-world.com).
Have a look under Services & Suppliers.
Maybe of some help.
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
On 18/07/2014 4:04 am, "Pocono John" wrote:
>
>(I tried a search, but no help). I want to order enough wood to get me
>through ribs and the tail section. I have a material list from Robert
>McKinley (revised by Mark Chouinard) from a few years ago.
>
>When I add up the ribs (I want enough to build 30 ribs to allow for
>damage, etc), I get a total of 95 pieces at 5 ft (I plan on the one piece
>wing, which I'll build in a hanger). The list has 110 pieces. I'm
>including all the sticks that support the rib. Am I off (I plan on 60
>pieces of 5' for capstrips, 35 pieces of 5' for the internal
>stickstotal 475')?
>
>I tried to measure the upper capstrip to factor in the shape/curve, but
>it still seems a 5 foot length will work. Will 5' be long enough?
>
>I already have a 8X4 piece of 3 ply mahogany, 1/16". I'll use it for rib
>gussets.
>
>Regarding the tail section, the materials list mentions 1X1 pieces, but I
>don't see 1X1 on the plans. Where are they?
>
>Anything else I should consider?
>
>Thank you.
>
>--------
>John
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426845#426845
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Oscar Zuniga <taildrags(at)hotmail.com> |
| Subject: | Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
Doug and others-
William's point is well taken. There is a Piet already flying with the Rib
lett wing. This is not theoretical=3B it exists. It has been test-flown w
ith another=2C nearly identical Piet with the FC10 airfoil. There is no ne
ed to guess or calculate the wing incidence before talking with the builder
/pilot of the airplane that has already successfully flown. There is a goo
d trail of bread crumbs. As I recall=2C PF wrote an article for the BPA Ne
wsletter that documented their findings and test results=2C and he is very
available to answer questions.
Oscar ZunigaMedford=2C ORAir Camper NX41CCA-75 power
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu> |
William,
Yep, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It will be interesting to see
the real world numbers you get through empirical testing at Brodhead. I appreciate
you pursuing this project. Like your CG initiative it should be helpful
in enabling folks to build a safe airplane.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426882#426882
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Corvair College |
| From: | "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com> |
I want to fly down, but it's too soon to know if I'll be able to. A lot of things
need to line up schedule-wise at work. Fingers crossed. Made it last year.
These Corvair Colleges are a lot of fun. You'll meet really good people, and you'll
learn a lot.
- Pat
Patrick Hoyt
N63PZ - XL/Corvair - Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426885#426885
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com> |
Random thoughts on this thread---
If I understand this thread, the ultimate number that people are looking for is
the angle between the chord of the wind and the chord of the tail surface that
will give zero stick force at a normal cruise speed, c/g, and weight. The idea
is to find a nice center spot so only minor trim changes will be needed to
accommodate speed and weight changes.
It's pretty obvious that you can change the angle between wing and tail by either
differential cabane length or tail shims. Raise the bridge or lower the river.
Again, ideally, when at the zero stick force/normal cruise speed point,
the fuselage will be level with the earth and all the thrust will be in the forward
direction.
It seems to me that there are 5 data points that need to be collected for each
airplane.
1. Angle of incidence of the wing.
2. Angle of incidence of the horizontal stabilizer.
3. Speed in flight with zero pitch stick force and trim systems neutral.
4. Fuselage deck angle at that speed.
5. Center of Gravity
Assuming adequate power, a builder could optimize his plane for a specific airspeed.
As an example, with a 100 hp Corvair engine or an O-200, the builder could
cruise "hands off" at any speed between, say, 50 mph and 85+ mph by simply
changing the relative angles of the two lifting surfaces. This is what heavy
jets and Piper Cubs normally do in flight so we know it works.
If the operating CG range of the aircraft is within the 15-20 inch aft of leading
edge limits, then shifting the CG forward or aft is not likely to fix any large
control force issues and runs the risk of moving it too far.
Here's what I'm taking away from this discussion.
1. I need to determine what cruise speed I'm building for.
2. I need to build the cabane diagonals so that the aircraft is in CG for
all weights and loading.
3. I need to use the data that Mr. Wynne is collecting to figure out proper
cabane length differential.
4. I need to figure out how to make minor adjustments to the horizontal stab
angle of incidence during flight testing.
5. I need to get my sorry a$$ out to the hangar and build something.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426888#426888
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
Since I built my plane to the plans with the Pietenpol wing and to the plan
s where is shows the front cabanes 1" longer than
the front and since P.F. Beck's awesome comparison of the Piet wing vs. the
Riblett essentially showed no advantages one
way or the other, am I correct to assume that, in general you're going to h
ave to have 1" longer cabanes in the front no matter
which wing you're using?
There's been a lot of hand waving and lots and lots of words but you want y
our cabanes 1" longer in the front than in the back to
prevent the issues that Chris Rusch is having with his excessive forward st
ick pressure yes?
My eyes glaze over when these kinds of discussions get off in the weeds so
just want to re-center the topic so that the guys out there
like Perez who have equal length cabanes and a Riblett airfoil aren't surpr
ised by extreme forward stick pressure on the first flight.
Mike C.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
Just build to plans.
Cabane lengths have already been determined by Mr. Pietenpol, and attested
to, even with other airfoils, as demonstrated by PF Beck's notes.
If you think you are going to be heavy, angle the cabanes back.
It's that simple. The "discussion" went in a complete circle and ended up
back at the plans!! Lots of builders have made lots of changes, but no one
has improved a thing!!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dgaldrich
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 8:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014
-->
Random thoughts on this thread---
If I understand this thread, the ultimate number that people are looking for
is the angle between the chord of the wind and the chord of the tail surface
that will give zero stick force at a normal cruise speed, c/g, and weight.
The idea is to find a nice center spot so only minor trim changes will be
needed to accommodate speed and weight changes.
It's pretty obvious that you can change the angle between wing and tail by
either differential cabane length or tail shims. Raise the bridge or lower
the river. Again, ideally, when at the zero stick force/normal cruise speed
point, the fuselage will be level with the earth and all the thrust will be
in the forward direction.
It seems to me that there are 5 data points that need to be collected for
each airplane.
1. Angle of incidence of the wing.
2. Angle of incidence of the horizontal stabilizer.
3. Speed in flight with zero pitch stick force and trim systems
neutral.
4. Fuselage deck angle at that speed.
5. Center of Gravity
Assuming adequate power, a builder could optimize his plane for a specific
airspeed. As an example, with a 100 hp Corvair engine or an O-200, the
builder could cruise "hands off" at any speed between, say, 50 mph and 85+
mph by simply changing the relative angles of the two lifting surfaces.
This is what heavy jets and Piper Cubs normally do in flight so we know it
works.
If the operating CG range of the aircraft is within the 15-20 inch aft of
leading edge limits, then shifting the CG forward or aft is not likely to
fix any large control force issues and runs the risk of moving it too far.
Here's what I'm taking away from this discussion.
1. I need to determine what cruise speed I'm building for.
2. I need to build the cabane diagonals so that the aircraft is in CG
for all weights and loading.
3. I need to use the data that Mr. Wynne is collecting to figure out
proper cabane length differential.
4. I need to figure out how to make minor adjustments to the
horizontal stab angle of incidence during flight testing.
5. I need to get my sorry a$$ out to the hangar and build something.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426888#426888
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
OT So don't bitch.
Just to throw anouther cat into the fight. The Vtail Bonanza wing incidence
is 4 degrees at the root and 1 degree at the tip. This is so that the root
will stall first and give lots of warning. The plane was designed 1945-47.
Mine was made in 1948. There were a lot of short grass strips. The
incidence also helps the tricycle gear plane do short and grass takeoffs.
In cruse, the Vtail flies slightly nose down. Coming from Cessnas, most
pilots keep setting the nose on the horizon and slowly climing. It takes a
while to get used to the nose down. .
Blue Skies,
Steve D.
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:30 AM, DonkDoug
wrote:
> douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu>
>
> Paul, Mike and any other Riblett builders out there,
>
> So in calculating incidence angles for the Riblett airfoil to this point
I
> had a nagging suspicion that something was being left out. After getting
> out my old textbooks tonight I discovered I was right.
>
> Determining the lift coefficient required at cruise from aircraft
> operating weight, speed and air density is correct but to determine the
> incidence angle that should be set for cruising speeds the aspect ratio o
f
> the wing and the angle of attack at which zero lift is created must also
be
> factored in. Doing so I found that for the operating weight of 1150 lbs.
> that we have been using and a speed of 75 mph on a Standard Day both the
> Riblett 30-612 and 30-613.5 should have an incidence angle set at about 3
> degrees positive. That works out to the front cabane being =C2=BD
=9D longer than
> the rear.
>
> For those of you that have built your plane with equal length cabanes thi
s
> length would be appropriate for a cruising speed coefficient of lift of
> about .46. One would see that cruise speed lift coefficient at lighter
> operating weights, cooler than Standard Day temperatures, lower altitudes
,
> higher speeds and combinations of these conditions.
>
> For those with front cabanes one inch longer than the rear the resulting
> incidence would be appropriate for conditions that produce a cruising spe
ed
> lift coefficient of about .62. This would be appropriate for heavier
> operating weights, slower speeds, hotter days, higher altitudes, less den
se
> air and combinations of these variables.
>
> I apologize for any confusion I may have created with my earlier posts.
>
> Doug Wright
> Stillwater, OK
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426874#426874
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Mike,
My eyes get glazed over too. From what I am reading, Chris has to hold back pressure
on the stick in flight.
I do know for a fact that the GN-1 plans have the cabane measurements wrong. If
you build that plane to the drawings when in level flight the plane will be
flying tail low. This was the case on my dads and on Mike Madrid's GN-1's.
Back to Chris's plane now. Knowing what I do about the GN-1's, I believe that
the folks on that thread are headed in the right direction. I also think that
if Chris could somehow attach a water level cord wise to the wing he would see
that when the wing is in level flight that the nose of the plane or top longeron
would be pointed down hill. By hauling back on the stick to make the airplane
appear to be level in flight he is only flying at a higher angle of attack
thus flying at a slower airspeed. If the correct angle of incidence is found,
the stick forces will be greatly reduced or dis appear and he will see a higher
cruise speed. If Chris could arrange for someone to take some video of
him making a low flyby over the runway and in level flight, maintaining altitude,
he may be able to see what I am trying to convey.
I am really interested in what their numbers (math) shows after the numbers are
crunched.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426893#426893
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike,
If you are looking for a simple answer, here goes-
The plans were the earlier iteration of an evolving design. That is why BHP kept
building them and trying other automotive engines, for example. The simple answer
would be to look at "The Last Original", not the first. I think that is
where you will see the culmination of the design.
Just a thought.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426896#426896
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Mike,
If your plane is done and flying and you are happy with it, there is no need to
read any of this, especially if it makes you sleepy. However, I think that part
of the issue Chris is working with is exactly what you think is the 'fix' namely
using the same incidence on every plane regardless of the airfoil, power
or weight. I think that we will know a lot more after we measure some stuff,
but I want to come out with some better guidance for builders that just telling
everyone to make the cabanes one length and guessing at another man's rigging
issues with shot in the dark ideas like "move the wing" or "just make the cabanes
1" longer".
-----------------------------------------------------
I have contacted Chris, and if possible I am going to visit his plane personally
after Oshkosh is over. I think that this, and the information we gather will
offer a better solution than guessing. More corrections are made by people willing
to examine the issue and consider it in detail, than people with glazed
over eyes making generalizations about snowflakes.
----------------------------------------------------
As I said, if anyone has a plane with 1929 style gear and 50-65 hp, is flying in
CG and has the BHP airfoil, it lends to reason that the plans incidence is great
advice. PF and Don's planes may have a bit more power, but also fall in the
same group. Terry Hand already got very detailed rigging and notes from PF
to kick off our data collection, and their results are satisfactory on their planes.
When I visit Chris's project, the first thing I am going to do is see how
it differs from Don's as a starting point.
-------------------------------
I know of very few 'perfect' examples of any homebuit design that are 15 years
old. Mostly builders, and most designers, continue to evolve their thinking, even
on small points. I can think of no better evidence of this than how different
"the Last Original" looks from planes in the 1929 plans. BHP's eyes didn't
glaze over at the opportunity to think, consider, test, refine. Most successful
homebuilders would gladly advise any builder following in their footsteps on
how to build a slightly better, more refined evolution of their plane, so that
the next man might have something slightly better. Telling anyone that it isn't
possible to build a more refined plane than was done before seems implausible.
--------------------------------------------------------
The mere idea that a number of builders opted to make a significant change in the
plane by using a different airfoil, it seems very odd to suggest to these builders
that changing the airfoil is OK, but somehow tailoring the incidence of
that different airfoil is somehow sacrilege.
----------------------------------------------------------
Making the suggestion that Don flew 1" longer cabanes on his plane with the Ribblett,
and he liked it, so therefore absolutely no further evaluation should be
considered, discussed nor allowed, because it is upsetting to people who want
to see the design cast in stone in 1929, or whenever. Lots of people like things
that don't change nor evolve. This is some peoples nature. However, we have
plenty of evidence that BHP was not one of those people.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426898#426898
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
Kind of like an F-14 has variable wing sweep you could weld screw-jacks in
the middle of your rear cabanes and have variable wing incidence to account
for varying temps, airspeed, DA, etc. And then add an electric motor to
rotate the screws with a switch on your joystick handle next to your
elevator trim switch, PTT switch, aileron trim switch.................zzzzz
z
rh
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:30 PM, DonkDoug
wrote:
> douglas.wright(at)okstate.edu>
>
> Paul, Mike and any other Riblett builders out there,
>
> So in calculating incidence angles for the Riblett airfoil to this point
I
> had a nagging suspicion that something was being left out. After getting
> out my old textbooks tonight I discovered I was right.
>
> Determining the lift coefficient required at cruise from aircraft
> operating weight, speed and air density is correct but to determine the
> incidence angle that should be set for cruising speeds the aspect ratio o
f
> the wing and the angle of attack at which zero lift is created must also
be
> factored in. Doing so I found that for the operating weight of 1150 lbs.
> that we have been using and a speed of 75 mph on a Standard Day both the
> Riblett 30-612 and 30-613.5 should have an incidence angle set at about 3
> degrees positive. That works out to the front cabane being =C2=BD
=9D longer than
> the rear.
>
> For those of you that have built your plane with equal length cabanes thi
s
> length would be appropriate for a cruising speed coefficient of lift of
> about .46. One would see that cruise speed lift coefficient at lighter
> operating weights, cooler than Standard Day temperatures, lower altitudes
,
> higher speeds and combinations of these conditions.
>
> For those with front cabanes one inch longer than the rear the resulting
> incidence would be appropriate for conditions that produce a cruising spe
ed
> lift coefficient of about .62. This would be appropriate for heavier
> operating weights, slower speeds, hotter days, higher altitudes, less den
se
> air and combinations of these variables.
>
> I apologize for any confusion I may have created with my earlier posts.
>
> Doug Wright
> Stillwater, OK
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426874#426874
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Rick,
Now you've done it. I mean that's sort of been done already. When you get a chance
look at the Flying Flea. Goofy looking plane at best. Look at haw the
wing moves. Almost scary.
Now my eyes are glazed over again.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426903#426903
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> |
If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with prop.
hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new A75
pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
Best,
-john-
John Hofmann
Vice-President, IT and Production
The Rees Group, Inc.
2424 American Lane
Madison, WI 53704
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | glenschweizer(at)yahoo.com |
It's a peitenpol.not an F14. How would you account for a wash in effect, ai
leron differences etc. maybe you should go ahead and build an F14. It's a pe
it., keep it simple for peit's sake!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 18, 2014, at 1:04 PM, Rick Holland wrote:
>
> Kind of like an F-14 has variable wing sweep you could weld screw-jacks in
the middle of your rear cabanes and have variable wing incidence to account
for varying temps, airspeed, DA, etc. And then add an electric motor to rot
ate the screws with a switch on your joystick handle next to your elevator t
rim switch, PTT switch, aileron trim switch.................zzzzzz
>
> rh
>
>
>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 11:30 PM, DonkDoug w
rote:
edu>
>>
>> Paul, Mike and any other Riblett builders out there,
>>
>> So in calculating incidence angles for the Riblett airfoil to this point I
had a nagging suspicion that something was being left out. After getting o
ut my old textbooks tonight I discovered I was right.
>>
>> Determining the lift coefficient required at cruise from aircraft operati
ng weight, speed and air density is correct but to determine the incidence a
ngle that should be set for cruising speeds the aspect ratio of the wing and
the angle of attack at which zero lift is created must also be factored in.
Doing so I found that for the operating weight of 1150 lbs. that we have b
een using and a speed of 75 mph on a Standard Day both the Riblett 30-612 an
d 30-613.5 should have an incidence angle set at about 3 degrees positive. T
hat works out to the front cabane being =C2=BD=9D longer than the rear
.
>>
>> For those of you that have built your plane with equal length cabanes thi
s length would be appropriate for a cruising speed coefficient of lift of ab
out .46. One would see that cruise speed lift coefficient at lighter operat
ing weights, cooler than Standard Day temperatures, lower altitudes, higher s
peeds and combinations of these conditions.
>>
>> For those with front cabanes one inch longer than the rear the resulting i
ncidence would be appropriate for conditions that produce a cruising speed l
ift coefficient of about .62. This would be appropriate for heavier operati
ng weights, slower speeds, hotter days, higher altitudes, less dense air and
combinations of these variables.
>>
>> I apologize for any confusion I may have created with my earlier posts.
>>
>> Doug Wright
>> Stillwater, OK
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426874#426874
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol
-List
>> ==========
>> MS -
>> k">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> e -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
> Castle Rock, Colorado
> NX6819Z
>
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
Methinks I should jump on it...
Gene
On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>
> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
>
> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with prop.
hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new A75
pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>
>
> Best,
> -john-
>
> John Hofmann
> Vice-President, IT and Production
> The Rees Group, Inc.
> 2424 American Lane
> Madison, WI 53704
> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
> Fax: 608.443.2474
> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Scott,
Any ideas on what the correct GN-1 cabane measurements should be?
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://repeit.cpc-world.com
On 19/07/2014 2:57 am, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:
>
>
>Mike,
>
>My eyes get glazed over too. From what I am reading, Chris has to hold
>back pressure on the stick in flight.
>
>I do know for a fact that the GN-1 plans have the cabane measurements
>wrong. If you build that plane to the drawings when in level flight the
>plane will be flying tail low. This was the case on my dads and on Mike
>Madrid's GN-1's.
>
>Back to Chris's plane now. Knowing what I do about the GN-1's, I believe
>that the folks on that thread are headed in the right direction. I also
>think that if Chris could somehow attach a water level cord wise to the
>wing he would see that when the wing is in level flight that the nose of
>the plane or top longeron would be pointed down hill. By hauling back on
>the stick to make the airplane appear to be level in flight he is only
>flying at a higher angle of attack thus flying at a slower airspeed. If
>the correct angle of incidence is found, the stick forces will be greatly
>reduced or dis appear and he will see a higher cruise speed. If Chris
>could arrange for someone to take some video of him making a low flyby
>over the runway and in level flight, maintaining altitude, he may be able
>to see what I am trying to convey.
>
>I am really interested in what their numbers (math) shows after the
>numbers are crunched.
>
>--------
>Scott Liefeld
>Flying N11MS since March 1972
>Steel Tube
>C-85-12
>Wire Wheels
>Brodhead in 1996
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426893#426893
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
The newer CAD GN-1 plans show 23 1/4" front and 23 1/2" rear (bolt center
to bolt center).
rh
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Peter Johnson
wrote:
> >
>
> Scott,
>
> Any ideas on what the correct GN-1 cabane measurements should be?
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
> Wonthaggi Australia
> http://repeit.cpc-world.com
>
>
> On 19/07/2014 2:57 am, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Mike,
> >
> >My eyes get glazed over too. From what I am reading, Chris has to hold
> >back pressure on the stick in flight.
> >
> >I do know for a fact that the GN-1 plans have the cabane measurements
> >wrong. If you build that plane to the drawings when in level flight the
> >plane will be flying tail low. This was the case on my dads and on Mike
> >Madrid's GN-1's.
> >
> >Back to Chris's plane now. Knowing what I do about the GN-1's, I believe
> >that the folks on that thread are headed in the right direction. I also
> >think that if Chris could somehow attach a water level cord wise to the
> >wing he would see that when the wing is in level flight that the nose of
> >the plane or top longeron would be pointed down hill. By hauling back on
> >the stick to make the airplane appear to be level in flight he is only
> >flying at a higher angle of attack thus flying at a slower airspeed. If
> >the correct angle of incidence is found, the stick forces will be greatly
> >reduced or dis appear and he will see a higher cruise speed. If Chris
> >could arrange for someone to take some video of him making a low flyby
> >over the runway and in level flight, maintaining altitude, he may be able
> >to see what I am trying to convey.
> >
> >I am really interested in what their numbers (math) shows after the
> >numbers are crunched.
> >
> >--------
> >Scott Liefeld
> >Flying N11MS since March 1972
> >Steel Tube
> >C-85-12
> >Wire Wheels
> >Brodhead in 1996
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Read this topic online here:
> >
> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426893#426893
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A. Hope
no one else needs the Continental too...
Anyone want a boat anchor??
Gene
On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>
> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
>
> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with prop.
hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new A75
pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>
>
> Best,
> -john-
>
> John Hofmann
> Vice-President, IT and Production
> The Rees Group, Inc.
> 2424 American Lane
> Madison, WI 53704
> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
> Fax: 608.443.2474
> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Thanks Ric,
Mine measure 21=B2 front and 21 1/4=B2 rear, same angles but slightly more
difficult to get in or out.
Cheers
Peter
Ps just uploaded some new pictures to the web site showing progress to date
.
PJ
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, 19 July 2014 9:50 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question
The newer CAD GN-1 plans show 23 1/4" front and 23 1/2" rear (bolt center t
o
bolt center).
rh
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Peter Johnson
wrote:
u>
>
> Scott,
>
> Any ideas on what the correct GN-1 cabane measurements should be?
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
> Wonthaggi Australia
> http://repeit.cpc-world.com
>
>
> On 19/07/2014 2:57 am, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:
>
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike,
>> >
>> >My eyes get glazed over too. From what I am reading, Chris has to hold
>> >back pressure on the stick in flight.
>> >
>> >I do know for a fact that the GN-1 plans have the cabane measurements
>> >wrong. If you build that plane to the drawings when in level flight th
e
>> >plane will be flying tail low. This was the case on my dads and on Mik
e
>> >Madrid's GN-1's.
>> >
>> >Back to Chris's plane now. Knowing what I do about the GN-1's, I belie
ve
>> >that the folks on that thread are headed in the right direction. I als
o
>> >think that if Chris could somehow attach a water level cord wise to the
>> >wing he would see that when the wing is in level flight that the nose o
f
>> >the plane or top longeron would be pointed down hill. By hauling back
on
>> >the stick to make the airplane appear to be level in flight he is only
>> >flying at a higher angle of attack thus flying at a slower airspeed. I
f
>> >the correct angle of incidence is found, the stick forces will be great
ly
>> >reduced or dis appear and he will see a higher cruise speed. If Chris
>> >could arrange for someone to take some video of him making a low flyby
>> >over the runway and in level flight, maintaining altitude, he may be ab
le
>> >to see what I am trying to convey.
>> >
>> >I am really interested in what their numbers (math) shows after the
>> >numbers are crunched.
>> >
>> >--------
>> >Scott Liefeld
>> >Flying N11MS since March 1972
>> >Steel Tube
>> >C-85-12
>> >Wire Wheels
>> >Brodhead in 1996
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426893#426893
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
> ==========
> br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-L
ist
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Be a good idea if I spelt http://repiet.cpc-world.com correctly=8A.
Cheers
Peter
From: PeterJ <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Date: Saturday, 19 July 2014 12:58 pm
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question
Thanks Ric,
Mine measure 21=B2 front and 21 1/4=B2 rear, same angles but slightly more
difficult to get in or out.
Cheers
Peter
Ps just uploaded some new pictures to the web site showing progress to date
.
PJ
From: Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, 19 July 2014 9:50 am
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question
The newer CAD GN-1 plans show 23 1/4" front and 23 1/2" rear (bolt center t
o
bolt center).
rh
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Peter Johnson
wrote:
u>
>
> Scott,
>
> Any ideas on what the correct GN-1 cabane measurements should be?
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
> Wonthaggi Australia
> http://repeit.cpc-world.com
>
>
> On 19/07/2014 2:57 am, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:
>
>> >
>> >
>> >Mike,
>> >
>> >My eyes get glazed over too. From what I am reading, Chris has to hold
>> >back pressure on the stick in flight.
>> >
>> >I do know for a fact that the GN-1 plans have the cabane measurements
>> >wrong. If you build that plane to the drawings when in level flight th
e
>> >plane will be flying tail low. This was the case on my dads and on Mik
e
>> >Madrid's GN-1's.
>> >
>> >Back to Chris's plane now. Knowing what I do about the GN-1's, I belie
ve
>> >that the folks on that thread are headed in the right direction. I als
o
>> >think that if Chris could somehow attach a water level cord wise to the
>> >wing he would see that when the wing is in level flight that the nose o
f
>> >the plane or top longeron would be pointed down hill. By hauling back
on
>> >the stick to make the airplane appear to be level in flight he is only
>> >flying at a higher angle of attack thus flying at a slower airspeed. I
f
>> >the correct angle of incidence is found, the stick forces will be great
ly
>> >reduced or dis appear and he will see a higher cruise speed. If Chris
>> >could arrange for someone to take some video of him making a low flyby
>> >over the runway and in level flight, maintaining altitude, he may be ab
le
>> >to see what I am trying to convey.
>> >
>> >I am really interested in what their numbers (math) shows after the
>> >numbers are crunched.
>> >
>> >--------
>> >Scott Liefeld
>> >Flying N11MS since March 1972
>> >Steel Tube
>> >C-85-12
>> >Wire Wheels
>> >Brodhead in 1996
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426893#426893
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
> ==========
> br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-L
ist
> ==========
> MS -
> k">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> e -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
com
ronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Andre B. Charvet" <bencharvet(at)gmail.com> |
I may have a set of piston pins Gene.
Ben
Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A. Hope
no one else needs the Continental too...
>
>Anyone want a boat anchor??
>
>Gene
>
>On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>
>>
>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
>>
>> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with
prop. hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new A75
pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> -john-
>>
>> John Hofmann
>> Vice-President, IT and Production
>> The Rees Group, Inc.
>> 2424 American Lane
>> Madison, WI 53704
>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
>> Fax: 608.443.2474
>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
Is anyone on this list at or near Bakersfield CA???
Gene
On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:30 AM, "Andre B. Charvet" wrote:
>
> I may have a set of piston pins Gene.
> Ben
>
> Gene Rambo wrote:
>>
>> For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A. Hope
no one else needs the Continental too...
>>
>> Anyone want a boat anchor??
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
>>>
>>> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with
prop. hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new
A75 pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> -john-
>>>
>>> John Hofmann
>>> Vice-President, IT and Production
>>> The Rees Group, Inc.
>>> 2424 American Lane
>>> Madison, WI 53704
>>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
>>> Fax: 608.443.2474
>>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
About a 5 hour drive for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB9UO4QT2Y8
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A65-8
Is anyone on this list at or near Bakersfield CA???
Gene
On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:30 AM, "Andre B. Charvet"
wrote:
> -->
>
> I may have a set of piston pins Gene.
> Ben
>
> Gene Rambo wrote:
>>
>> For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A.
Hope no one else needs the Continental too...
>>
>> Anyone want a boat anchor??
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann
wrote:
>>
>>> -->
>>>
>>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing
other than what is below.
>>>
>>> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010
>>> under with prop. hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders
>>> are complete with new A75 pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine
>>> is complete but will need .859 piston pins. Extra set of push rods,
>>> rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb. $1500, Tom Arnold,
>>> 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> -john-
>>>
>>> John Hofmann
>>> Vice-President, IT and Production
>>> The Rees Group, Inc.
>>> 2424 American Lane
>>> Madison, WI 53704
>>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
>>> Fax: 608.443.2474
>>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead rigging project - 2014 |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
OK, I have 108 hour left until I leave for Brodhead, I have two engine to build
and test run, a trailer to pack, and about 100 other things to do so this is
the last comment on the topic....
----------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Aldrich's comments above are right on the money, comes as little surprise,
he is a very practical and clear thinking guy with a background in flying that
exceeds that of myself and most other Piet-peanut gallery people by a factor
of 100X or so. Go back and read his simple laid out thoughts if you want to understand
what the data collection could do for a builder. If you don't like the
idea of thinking or discussing these topics. use the delete key, don't speak
to me a Brodhead, and merrily go back to a world were I don't exist. I do this
all the time, example, I don't read a single word that "J-Mac" the EAA's editor
writes, and I don't watch TV news because my world is better when these things
don't exist to me. It is your life, your day, your minutes have them your
way......just make sure that you will not later need to know anything we learn
by doing this or any other project like the CG stuff, which BTW I have been
told "ruined" Pietenpol building by "bringing math into it,"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before one more person types the phrase "Just build it according to the plans",
they should take a good look at the size of the rock in their hand and the glass
house they are living in. I could be a jackass and point out that the majority
of people who write that don't have a plane/project that looks much like
the 1929-33 plans, nor the updates, nor what I call the "Living Plans", the last
Original. So please explain to me why a guy with brakes on a straight axle,
or shoulder belts, or a certified engine, or flying outside 15-20", or with electric
start on his Corvair, or with a leaf spring tail wheel or a host of other
things not in the plans, feels absolutely justified when he tells another
man that he should not be allowed to change the incidence of his wing one degree...because
that wouldn't be "according to the plans."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Roush has a good looking plane with an innovative engine and I have never
met him, but he sure sounds like a good cat. His plane has only logged a handful
of flights in 9 months, and it has a frustrating issue that is standing between
him and a lot of good times, something small no doubt, but the answer isn't
written down on a piece of paper for him to read and apply the correction......not
written down yet, that is, but hopefully it will be when we are done
with this project. Now, just imagine if that stupid piece of paper already existed
5 years ago....Chris might have a 100 hours on the plane by now and packing
it up for the trip to Brodhead, because it would have flown hands off on flight
#1. Please explain to me how it is more noble and productive to sit in a
glass house and type the phrase "Just build it to the plans" than it is to assist
us in typing the notes on the piece of paper that will allow all future
builders to avoid getting into Chris's position.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When Ryan and I did the CG project, we didn't change anything, redesign anything,
or make any new plans at all, although I was accused of this by glass house
people. All we did was take the CG range straight off BHP's notes, gathered some
samples, and did some example calculations. Realistically, We were the people
championing following the plans, but a lot of the push back against that project
came from people who's planes were flying at CG's of 21", people who liked
to type "Just build it according to the plans", something they clearly didn't
do themselves. Who is the heretic in that debate?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BHP didn't say NEVER CHANGE THE INCIDENCE on the plans in all capitol letters,
but funny, he did say NEVER FLY WITH CG AFT OF 20" in all caps, right on the plans.
Please tell me how the imaginary first phrase is to be defended to the death,
but the real second one had a weak following at best? I was motivated to
do the CG project because 5 people I knew put a Pietenpol on it's back in three
years, and 4 out of the 5 people who did this, didn't understand that the fact
they were using the 10" axle location from the no-brakes 1929 plans with a
set of brakes was the driving force. I also met several people who were flying
Piets that complained they were chronically tail heavy, and W&B showed these
plane to be out the aft limit....now the good part.....nearly every one of these
people claimed they had "just built it according to the plans." I can look
back through the archives of this list and see these people asking questions,
and of course the glass house club, people with no data or anything constructive
to say then or now, always felt obligated to chime in "Just build it according
to plans!" and so those people for lack of a little set of notes, got started
on the work that would lead them directly to a field where they unbuckled
their seat belt and banged their head on the ground. I have a hard time seeing
how my work to avoid people being in that position has me "ruining" Pietenpol
building.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fully get that there are many people who just like the Idea of "Flying low and
slow and not doing a lot on math stuff", and that these people can be deeply
offended by the things I write, say and think. I get it because it is a two way
street, I think of Low, slow and not thinking much as the same thing as running
out of altitude, airspeed and ideas all at the same time. I am yet to understand
why people spend hundreds of hours putting Chitty Chitty Bang Bang style
points on every detail of their plane, but are unwilling to do 10 minutes of
CG planning. To each their own, I only want to be in charge of my own life,
I think people should be allowed to do what they want. I accept that some people
don't like thinking about planes, I am just not one of those people.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I fully understand the concept of wanting to hold on to "How things were", treasuring
older stuff, times where the world didn't change by the hour. Most of the
stuff I own is old, my ideas are old, I live on a little grass strip in a simple
setting and fly old planes for a reason. But I can treasure old and classic,
but understand it and use it correctly also. In December I won a shooting
match with a 98 year old .30-06. It was satisfying for a century old machine
defeat a lot of new equipment. It took nothing away from this feeling to know
that I took the rifle to a qualified armorer a week earlier and had it head spaced
on elaborate tooling, nor did the fact I was shooting modern rounds ruin
the victory. In the same way, I hold that you can enjoy flying a 1930s design
and savor the experience, and that it will detract nothing if the plane had it's
weight and balance done a week earlier on electronic scales using data and
calculations collected by some jackass in Florida.
-----------------------------------------------------
Remember that you can go flying and enjoy a little taste of the 1930s, but I point
out that you can't really get there without the "Three P's" (Poverty, Polio
and Prejudice) Maybe the goal is to enjoy the best things that came in the 1930's
not to actually try to recreate the decade. The Salk vaccine didn't ruin
childhood and looking at the possibility of modifying incidence on planes with
different airfoils, engines and weights isn't going to ruin Pietenpols either.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426921#426921
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Pietflyer1977" <rob(at)stoinoff.com> |
Gene,
I sent you a email. If you can keep a eye out for it and make sure it doesn't go
to spam or something.
Thanks Rob
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426928#426928
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
I'm 1.5 hours drive away.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426932#426932
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Peter,
I just sent a text to Mike Madrid to see what his final measurements are. I'll
let you know when I hear from him.
Cheers
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426933#426933
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Can see it now, a twin A65 Piet showing up at Brodhead!
Shouldn't you be heading out soon (nudge, nudge)?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426938#426938
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Tools,
I don't need twin 65's. I have a high performance 85. Wish I could go. Have fun.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426946#426946
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net> |
Gene,
I'm about five hours north by car, 2.5 by plane. Could I help?
Ray Krause
Colusa, CA
Sent from my iPad
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>
> Is anyone on this list at or near Bakersfield CA???
>
> Gene
>
>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:30 AM, "Andre B. Charvet" wrote:
>>
>>
>> I may have a set of piston pins Gene.
>> Ben
>>
>> Gene Rambo wrote:
>>>
>>> For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A. Hope
no one else needs the Continental too...
>>>
>>> Anyone want a boat anchor??
>>>
>>> Gene
>>>
>>>> On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
>>>>
>>>> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with
prop. hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new
A75 pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> -john-
>>>>
>>>> John Hofmann
>>>> Vice-President, IT and Production
>>>> The Rees Group, Inc.
>>>> 2424 American Lane
>>>> Madison, WI 53704
>>>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
>>>> Fax: 608.443.2474
>>>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rib Dimensions Drawing |
| From: | "JSeitz" <Joachimkarlseitz(at)gmail.com> |
I have the same situation. The response I got on the Facebook group was to not
worry about it. The rudder versus the vertical fin + fuselage is also a bit off
(I want to say half an inch iirc). I used the listed dimensions and then took
the extra 1/8 inch off the back. The place I am still slightly contemplative
is the nose of the rib (I plan on further editing). What did you do for your
nose on the drawing?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426957#426957
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20140719_171550_101.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> |
Thanks Scott
On 20/07/2014 1:00 am, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:
>
>
>Peter,
>I just sent a text to Mike Madrid to see what his final measurements are.
>I'll let you know when I hear from him.
>Cheers
>
>--------
>Scott Liefeld
>Flying N11MS since March 1972
>Steel Tube
>C-85-12
>Wire Wheels
>Brodhead in 1996
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426933#426933
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com> |
I'm about an hour and a quarter from Bakersfield by car. Maybe longer by Pietenpol
; )
Mike Groah
Tulare CA
414MV
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 19, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Gene Rambo wrote:
>
>
> Is anyone on this list at or near Bakersfield CA???
>
> Gene
>
>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:30 AM, "Andre B. Charvet" wrote:
>>
>>
>> I may have a set of piston pins Gene.
>> Ben
>>
>> Gene Rambo wrote:
>>>
>>> For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A. Hope
no one else needs the Continental too...
>>>
>>> Anyone want a boat anchor??
>>>
>>> Gene
>>>
>>>> On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing other
than what is below.
>>>>
>>>> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with
prop. hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new
A75 pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston
pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> -john-
>>>>
>>>> John Hofmann
>>>> Vice-President, IT and Production
>>>> The Rees Group, Inc.
>>>> 2424 American Lane
>>>> Madison, WI 53704
>>>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
>>>> Fax: 608.443.2474
>>>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rib Dimensions Drawing |
| From: | "echobravo4" <eab4(at)comcast.net> |
Pretty sure that's what I did on mine too-
I'm not really worrying about the nose of the ribs till I get to the wing
If you are doing a solid leading edge, that takes care of all the rib noses
at one time.
Mike Cuy has a good drawing of making the leading edge out of a stairway
railing- I think it's up on westcoastpiet.com
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426965#426965
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Mike told me he is on his way to Brodhead in her s flybaby. He is stuck in AZ with
a bad mag. He should be in the air again on Monday. He said he we check the
lengths when he gets home.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426967#426967
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
Thanks Ray, I'm gonna jump a flight in the morning and go pack and ship it back.
I appreciate the offer.
Gene
On Jul 19, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Ray Krause wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> I'm about five hours north by car, 2.5 by plane. Could I help?
>
> Ray Krause
> Colusa, CA
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Gene Rambo wrote:
>>
>>
>> Is anyone on this list at or near Bakersfield CA???
>>
>> Gene
>>
>>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:30 AM, "Andre B. Charvet" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I may have a set of piston pins Gene.
>>> Ben
>>>
>>> Gene Rambo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the model A.
Hope no one else needs the Continental too...
>>>>
>>>> Anyone want a boat anchor??
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub Club. I know nothing
other than what is below.
>>>>>
>>>>> Continental A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with
prop. hub. Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new
A75 pistons. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859
piston pins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and
carb. $1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> -john-
>>>>>
>>>>> John Hofmann
>>>>> Vice-President, IT and Production
>>>>> The Rees Group, Inc.
>>>>> 2424 American Lane
>>>>> Madison, WI 53704
>>>>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
>>>>> Fax: 608.443.2474
>>>>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
smart move.. 65 hp and over a hundred lbs lighter..... =0A=0A=0AOn Saturday
, July 19, 2014 6:58 PM, Gene Rambo wrote:=0A =0A=0A
=0AThanks Ray, I'm gonna jump a flight in the morning and go pack and ship
it back.- I appreciate the offer. =0A=0AGene=0A=0AOn Jul 19, 2014, at 4:3
2 PM, Ray Krause wrote:=0A=0A> --> Pietenpol-Li
st message posted by: Ray Krause =0A> =0A> Gene,
=0A> =0A> I'm about five hours north by car, 2.5 by plane. Could I help?=0A
> =0A> Ray Krause=0A> Colusa, CA=0A> =0A> Sent from my iPad=0A> =0A>> On Ju
l 19, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Gene Rambo wrote:=0A>> =0A>> --
>> Is anyone on this list at or near Bakersfield CA???=0A>> =0A>> Gene=0A>>
=0A>>> On Jul 19, 2014, at 7:30 AM, "Andre B. Charvet" =0A>>> =0A>>> I may have a set of piston pins G
ene.=0A>>> Ben=0A>>> =0A>>> Gene Rambo wrote:=0A>>>> --
=0A>>>> For what it's worth guys, I'm going for the engine. I'm over the mo
del A. Hope no one else needs the Continental too...=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Anyone
want a boat anchor??=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Gene=0A>>>> =0A>>>>> On Jul 18, 2014, a
t 4:30 PM, John Hofmann wrote:=0A>>>>> =0A>>>>>
com>=0A>>>>> =0A>>>>> If anyone is interested, I got this through the Cub C
lub. I know nothing other than what is below.=0A>>>>> =0A>>>>> Continental
A65-8 engine disassembled. Tapered shaft ground .010 under with prop. hub.
Zero time on .015 over cylinders. Cylinders are complete with new A75 pisto
ns. Rockers arms overhauled. Engine is complete but will need .859 piston p
ins. Extra set of push rods, rocker arms, cam followers, plungers and carb.
$1500, Tom Arnold, 661-623-1611, email: earnold(at)bak.rr.com=0A>>>>> =0A>>>>
> =0A>>>>> Best,=0A>>>>> -john-=0A>>>>> =0A>>>>> John Hofmann=0A>>>>> Vice-
President, IT and Production=0A>>>>> The Rees Group, Inc.=0A>>>>> 2424 Amer
ican Lane=0A>>>>> Madison, WI 53704=0A>>>>> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150=0A>
>>>> Fax: 608.443.2474=0A>>>>> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com=0A> =0A>
=
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> |
No problem Scott, hope he gets his mag sorted.
Cheers
Peter
On 20/07/2014 9:41 am, "AircamperN11MS" wrote:
>
>
>Mike told me he is on his way to Brodhead in her s flybaby. He is stuck
>in AZ with a bad mag. He should be in the air again on Monday. He said he
>we check the lengths when he gets home.
>
>--------
>Scott Liefeld
>Flying N11MS since March 1972
>Steel Tube
>C-85-12
>Wire Wheels
>Brodhead in 1996
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426967#426967
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
difficult to get in and out of what??? =0A=0A=0AOn Saturday, July 19, 2014
9:46 PM, Peter Johnson wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A--> Piet
enpol-List message posted by: Peter Johnson =0A=0ANo
problem Scott, hope he gets his mag sorted.=0A=0ACheers=0A=0APeter=0A=0A
=0A=0AOn 20/07/2014 9:41 am, "AircamperN11MS" wr
.liefeld(at)lacity.org>=0A>=0A>Mike told me he is on his way to Brodhead in he
r s flybaby. He is stuck=0A>in AZ with a bad mag. He should be in the air a
gain on Monday. He said he=0A>we check the lengths when he gets home.=0A>
=0A>--------=0A>Scott Liefeld=0A>Flying N11MS since March 1972=0A>Steel Tub
e=0A>C-85-12=0A>Wire Wheels=0A>Brodhead in 1996=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read thi
s topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4
==============
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "Charles N. Campbell" <charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> |
An A&P (and small aircraft builder) friend of mine just suggested to put a
Piper wing strut adjuster in the top end of each of the cabane struts so
you can adjust them after each test flight to get the incidence you want
without any guessing. Any comments? I guess he just nixed the use of wood
cabane struts I was planning on using. I don't know how I would put an
adjustable fork in the end of a piece of wood. Chuck
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 7:41 PM, AircamperN11MS
wrote:
> Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
>
> Mike told me he is on his way to Brodhead in her s flybaby. He is stuck in
> AZ with a bad mag. He should be in the air again on Monday. He said he we
> check the lengths when he gets home.
>
> --------
> Scott Liefeld
> Flying N11MS since March 1972
> Steel Tube
> C-85-12
> Wire Wheels
> Brodhead in 1996
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426967#426967
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "Charles N. Campbell" <charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> |
I think I read a post that said the "Last Original" Aircamper is based at
Brodhead. If so, call someone up there and have them measure the lengths
of the cabane struts on it. That would probably solve the question. Chuck
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 2:08 PM, jarheadpilot82
wrote:
> jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
>
> Mike,
>
> If you are looking for a simple answer, here goes-
>
> The plans were the earlier iteration of an evolving design. That is why
> BHP kept building them and trying other automotive engines, for example.
> The simple answer would be to look at "The Last Original", not the first. I
> think that is where you will see the culmination of the design.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
> USMC, USMCR, ATP
> BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426896#426896
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
Charles,
You would also have to change the x-wires at the cabanes, the wing
struts and their drag/anti-drag wires, and the slanted cabanes, all
because someone who has never built a Pietenpol thought to impress you
with his =98better=99 idea.
Stick to the plans. Mr. Pietenpol has already figured all that stuff out
for you.
By the way, my wood / non-adjustable cabanes work just fine. In fact, I
cannot think of one Pietenpol with adjustable cabanes
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles
N. Campbell
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple
question
An A&P (and small aircraft builder) friend of mine just suggested to put
a Piper wing strut adjuster in the top end of each of the cabane struts
so you can adjust them after each test flight to get the incidence you
want without any guessing. Any comments? I guess he just nixed the use
of wood cabane struts I was planning on using. I don't know how I would
put an adjustable fork in the end of a piece of wood. Chuck
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 7:41 PM, AircamperN11MS
wrote:
Mike told me he is on his way to Brodhead in her s flybaby. He is stuck
in AZ with a bad mag. He should be in the air again on Monday. He said
he we check the lengths when he gets home.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=426967#426967
br> -List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Hey guys,
The topic this time was the length of the cabanes on a GN-1. Not the Pietenpol.
The GN-1 is very different. Larger spars and different airfoil resulting in
different cabane lengths. Sorry for the confusion. Mike Madrid and my dad both
have GN-1's. Hence asking them.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427007#427007
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Barnwell Regional Airport" <barnwellairport(at)bellsouth.net> |
| Subject: | Comparission test resilts from last year |
Piet Builders,
Recently, there have been many comments regarding the supposed correct
angle of attack on the Pietenpol versus the Riblet 612 airfoil .
As far as I know, no one else has actually compared the two airfoils
side by side with almost identical planes, engines, props, and produced
any useful information. Will either airfoil perform better by changing
the wing angle of attack from what it is now on our planes. I honestly
can't say. I have about 300 hrs on my plane now and Don has about 70
hrs on his. Neither Don or I plan to change our wings fron what we have
now.
Accept the Pietenpol for what it is....a low and slow fun to fly
airplane. I get the most enjoyment in taking people for their first ride
in an open cockpit, homebuilt, wooden, 1929 vintage, corvair powered low
and slow airplane. When you see the big smile on their face after they
get out, it's all worthwhile.
For those who may have come on the Piet forum since the article in the
Piet newsletter last year or did not attend my forum at Brodhead last
year, I'm attaching the first comparission test for those who might care
to read it. We have conducted some more testing and plan to share what
we have learned at a later date.
Sorry I won't be at Brodhead this year, will miss seeing everyone.
P. F. Beck
Hosting Corvair College # 31 November 7,8 & 9 at Barnwell, S. C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: wings and cabanes-----one simple question |
mine are 23 3/8 front--- back 22- 22 3/8---- my friends is
191/2 front- -and back with a 90hp franklin mine 65 cont- his flys tr
ue and fast... mine is in the cover process =0A=0A=0AOn Sunday, July 20, 20
14 9:41 AM, AircamperN11MS wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A-
.org>=0A=0AHey guys,=0AThe topic this time was the length of the cabanes on
a GN-1. Not the Pietenpol.- The GN-1 is very different. Larger spars and
different airfoil resulting in different cabane lengths. Sorry for the con
fusion. Mike Madrid and my dad both have GN-1's. Hence asking them.=0A=0A--
------=0AScott Liefeld=0AFlying N11MS since March 1972=0ASteel Tube=0AC-85-
12=0AWire Wheels=0ABrodhead in 1996=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online he
re:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427007#427007=0A=0A
=========================0A
======================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
Randy called me last week to ask me to let Y'all know he is planning on fly
ing up to Brodhead Thursday, weather permitting.- He said he will be driv
ing up if weather turns bad.- He also wanted to say thank you to all who
congratulated him with the Experimenter Article.- He said he can see some
posts, and some he only sees responses to post from some people. I have be
en having the same issue, not sure if I am getting spammed or not?- At an
y rate plan on seeing Randy at Brodhead this year.=0A-=0AShad=0AP.S. some
one plese respond to this email so I know it came thru.
________________________________________________________________________________
Shad it came through.....
Brian
SLC-UT
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 7:30 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Randy Bush
Randy called me last week to ask me to let Y'all know he is planning on fly
ing up to Brodhead Thursday, weather permitting. He said he will be drivin
g up if weather turns bad. He also wanted to say thank you to all who cong
ratulated him with the Experimenter Article. He said he can see some posts
, and some he only sees responses to post from some people. I have been hav
ing the same issue, not sure if I am getting spammed or not? At any rate p
lan on seeing Randy at Brodhead this year.
Shad
P.S. someone plese respond to this email so I know it came thru.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ?Q?RE:_Pietenpol-List:_Randy_Bush? |
| From: | "=?utf-8?Q?aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com?=" <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
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PT09
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Boatright, Jeffrey" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu> |
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ryan Mueller <ryan(at)rmueller.org> |
I've noticed similar issues with the real-time email subscription to the
list. Random messages from threads never show up (and are not going to my
spam folder, etc).
As an example, I never saw Shad's original message with the subject "Randy
Bush"; the first I read of it was in Brian's reply. I've noted a couple
larger threads recently where I compared what I received vs what is on the
web-based forum, and about 1/3 of the posts never come through via email. I
sent a note to Matt Dralle about a week ago, no word back yet....
-Ryan
On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:34 AM, <brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com> wrote:
> Shad it came through..
>
>
> Brian
>
> SLC-UT
>
>
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *shad bell
> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2014 7:30 AM
> *To:* Pietenpol List
> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Randy Bush
>
>
> Randy called me last week to ask me to let Y'all know he is planning on
> flying up to Brodhead Thursday, weather permitting. He said he will be
> driving up if weather turns bad. He also wanted to say thank you to all
> who congratulated him with the Experimenter Article. He said he can see
> some posts, and some he only sees responses to post from some people. I
> have been having the same issue, not sure if I am getting spammed or not?
> At any rate plan on seeing Randy at Brodhead this year.
>
>
> Shad
>
> P.S. someone plese respond to this email so I know it came thru.
>
>
> ============== ietenpol-List Email Forum - >
:p> /o:p>
> tor?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> ============== bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
- :p> tp://
> forums.matronics.com ============== bsp; - L
ist Contribution Web Site -
> e> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bution">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========
==
>
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Small Continental Conn Rod Bolts |
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
If you missed the Conn Rod Bolts last year, and want the security of knowing the
ones you're building that $4000. engine with are going to hold together, you
might be interested. I'm bringing more to Brodhead this week.
These are Sealed packages of 10 NOS (New Old Stock) Conn Rod Bolts, Continental
P/N 530213.
Will fit ALL A Series, C Series, O-200, O-300, and several more small Continental
engines.
Shoot me an email and I'll make sure I bring enough.
These are over $17.70 EACH from ACS,, but the 10 pce bag is only $100. to Piet
Builders. Savings to you $41.+ and you get 2 extra bolts.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427071#427071
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/conn_rod_bolts_134.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gene's boat anchor |
| From: | Douwe <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
I'm wondering if we're being snookered with all this talk of Gene switching engines...
I won't be one bit surprised if that gorgeous Piet I just saw in the newsletter
comes "pockita-pocketing" over the horizon later this week
.02$
Douwe
Sent from my iPhone
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gene's boat anchor |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
No. I wish. I'm not giving up yet but I am in California and shipped a 65 home
this morning.
I have options now.
Gene
On Jul 21, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Douwe wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if we're being snookered with all this talk of Gene switching engines...
>
> I won't be one bit surprised if that gorgeous Piet I just saw in the newsletter
comes "pockita-pocketing" over the horizon later this week
>
> .02$
>
> Douwe
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gene's boat anchor |
I missed 3 pietenpols at my home airport in the last 3 days.- Bob new ora
nge and black, the Rudolph, and sky gypsy have all been by since Friday.-
Sky Gypsy did a flyby today, must be headed for Indiana.=0A=0AShad =0A=0A
=0AOn Monday, July 21, 2014 4:54 PM, Douwe wr
g(at)earthlink.net>=0A=0AI'm wondering if we're being snookered with all this
talk of Gene switching engines...=0A=0AI won't be one bit surprised if that
gorgeous Piet I just saw in the newsletter comes "pockita-pocketing" over
the horizon later this week =0A=0A.02$=0A=0ADouwe=0A=0ASent from my iPhone
===================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Charles N. Campbell" <charlescampbell1924(at)gmail.com> |
Ryan, I have found that to be the case with me, also. Chuck
On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Ryan Mueller wrote:
> I've noticed similar issues with the real-time email subscription to the
> list. Random messages from threads never show up (and are not going to my
> spam folder, etc).
>
> As an example, I never saw Shad's original message with the subject "Rand
y
> Bush"; the first I read of it was in Brian's reply. I've noted a couple
> larger threads recently where I compared what I received vs what is on th
e
> web-based forum, and about 1/3 of the posts never come through via email.
I
> sent a note to Matt Dralle about a week ago, no word back yet....
>
> -Ryan
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:34 AM, <brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com> wrote:
>
>> Shad it came through..
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> SLC-UT
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
>> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *shad bell
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 21, 2014 7:30 AM
>> *To:* Pietenpol List
>> *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Randy Bush
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy called me last week to ask me to let Y'all know he is planning on
>> flying up to Brodhead Thursday, weather permitting. He said he will be
>> driving up if weather turns bad. He also wanted to say thank you to all
>> who congratulated him with the Experimenter Article. He said he can see
>> some posts, and some he only sees responses to post from some people. I
>> have been having the same issue, not sure if I am getting spammed or not
?
>> At any rate plan on seeing Randy at Brodhead this year.
>>
>>
>>
>> Shad
>>
>> P.S. someone plese respond to this email so I know it came thru.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ============== ietenpol-List Email Forum - >
:p> /o:p>
>> tor?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ============== bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUM
S - :p> tp://
>> forums.matronics.com ============== bsp; -
List Contribution Web Site -
>> e> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bution">
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========
==
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> *
>>
>>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead 2014 |
| From: | "john francis" <Mrkringles(at)msn.com> |
A death in the family has cancelled my plans to attend. Bummer....you all have
fun.
--------
John Francis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427124#427124
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead 2014 |
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
Sad news John, thoughts are with you...
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 5:55 AM, "john francis" wrote:
>
>
> A death in the family has cancelled my plans to attend. Bummer....you all have
fun.
>
> --------
> John Francis
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427124#427124
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bratfest IV Reminder |
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to joi
n us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead Fri
day, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the field
by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fl
y-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When
they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the
45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for g
reat weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & Sus
an Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
I received my aluminum jury strut material from Carlson Aircraft. I also bo
ught their jury strut installation kit. The kit does all 4 wing strut/jury
strut attachments. The kit varies depending on the size wing struts you use
. Mine are all the smaller size struts and this kit was tailored for them.
- I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16" bolts through ea
ch wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to prevent crushing. T
he kit itself has everything needed...various aluminum pieces cut to size,
raw stock you need to custom cut to fit your set up and all hardware.- Ve
ry simply, the kit uses two angle brackets bolted through the wing strut wh
ich holds the jury strut between them.=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, swi
tch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L locat
ions and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc.
While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I fig
ure W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tai
l wheel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct?- That number, (D
), minus the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from win
g L.E. (?)=0A=0AShould I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is
light, but I would not go as far as calling it a negative weight.=0A=0AAny
guidance would be appreciated.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switc
h seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Michael,
Have you finished covering and painting? The fabric on the fuselage and
tail will add considerable weight. It will be somewhat difficult to figure
how much that will weigh, but it should be possible to just add a weight (5
gallon bucket full of sand) at a measured location and just subtract that
moment out of your calculations to determine the actual weight and balance
of your unfinished airplane.
I'm not sure what benefit a rough W&B will be since it is very difficult to
anticipate the weight and cg of the fabric cover. Fabric and paint weigh a
lot. I was horrified to realize that the fabric and polyurethane paint on
mine added nearly 75 lbs.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
Wishing I was on my way to Brodhead. Maybe next year!
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:16 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance
Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L
locations and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements,
etc. While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I
figure W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R,
tail wheel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct? That number,
(D), minus the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from
wing L.E. (?)
Should I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I
would not go as far as calling it a negative weight.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
First engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Jack, the plane is complete minus jury struts, (in work) and the diagonal c
abane supports from the engine mounts.- I can't think of anything else mi
ssing.- About the only other items would be small...cotter pins, turnbuck
le clips, covers for the wing/center section gaps, etc. Right now the entir
e plane is assembled and level.- I wanted to do an initial W&B to see if
the wings may need to be moved a lot prior to making my jury struts and cab
ane diagonals. I believe my wing cross cables have enough slack to allow wi
ng adjustment. The cabanes as it sits are almost straight up, I measure 87
degrees to the longeron.=0A=0AI am waiting word back on a set of race car s
cales for the actual weighing, just not sure how to handle no tail weight.
=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker
Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
| From: | Rick Holland <at7000ft(at)gmail.com> |
Interesting, I have seen several Piets with jury struts bolted through the
flying struts but I didn't have the nerve to drill holes in mine (doesn't
mean that there is any problem doing it that way). Was almost easier to
make four wrap-around straps out of thin chrome moly sheet attached to the
strut and the horizontal and vertical jury struts with a single AN3
bolt/nut.
rh
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Michael Perez
wrote:
> I received my aluminum jury strut material from Carlson Aircraft. I also
> bought their jury strut installation kit. The kit does all 4 wing
> strut/jury strut attachments. The kit varies depending on the size wing
> struts you use. Mine are all the smaller size struts and this kit was
> tailored for them. I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16"
> bolts through each wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to
> prevent crushing. The kit itself has everything needed...various aluminum
> pieces cut to size, raw stock you need to custom cut to fit your set up and
> all hardware. Very simply, the kit uses two angle brackets bolted through
> the wing strut which holds the jury strut between them.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
| From: | Ryan Mueller <ryan(at)rmueller.org> |
In my opinion, the way to handle no/negative tail weight would be to cover
the aircraft and then weigh it....since, as Jack pointed out, without the
weight of the fabric and paint/dope aft of the wing your numbers at this
stage are going to be off compared to after covering.
I would think even just covering the fuselage and weighing with uncovered
wings would be better than weighing it now. The wing would weigh less
uncovered, but since the wing is "on the CG" the increase in weight from
covering should have minimal impact on the aircraft's CG....
-Ryan
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Michael Perez
wrote:
> Jack, the plane is complete minus jury struts, (in work) and the diagonal
> cabane supports from the engine mounts. I can't think of anything else
> missing. About the only other items would be small...cotter pins,
> turnbuckle clips, covers for the wing/center section gaps, etc. Right now
> the entire plane is assembled and level. I wanted to do an initial W&B to
> see if the wings may need to be moved a lot prior to making my jury struts
> and cabane diagonals. I believe my wing cross cables have enough slack to
> allow wing adjustment. The cabanes as it sits are almost straight up, I
> measure 87 degrees to the longeron.
>
> I am waiting word back on a set of race car scales for the actual
> weighing, just not sure how to handle no tail weight.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
To be clear...the aircraft is complete, including full fabric/cover/paint/v
arnish, etc. The only items missing are the cabane diagonals and jury strut
s. I want an initial W&B to see where the wing should be so that I can fabr
icate the parts mentioned.-- There is nothing left to do that would "he
lp" add weight to the tail, I just need to know how to figure it as is whil
e doing the W&B calculations.=0A=0AOnce I get my hands on the scales, and f
ind out where to put the wings, I can wrap up these last few items and...we
ll...WOW...it is just now starting to hit me...I'm done!=0A=0A=0AThanks for
the help. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
| From: | Ryan Mueller <ryan(at)rmueller.org> |
Oh oh, my apologies. Well, again as Jack mentioned, you would just add a
known amount of weight sufficient to keep the tail down, measure the
station at which you add it, and then use maths to to subtract it from your
results. It might be easier to plug your numbers into a spreadsheet to make
them easier to deal with subtracting that temporary ballast, playing around
with W&B scenarios, etc, instead of that formula...
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Michael Perez
wrote:
> To be clear...the aircraft is complete, including full
> fabric/cover/paint/varnish, etc. The only items missing are the cabane
> diagonals and jury struts. I want an initial W&B to see where the wing
> should be so that I can fabricate the parts mentioned. There is nothing
> left to do that would "help" add weight to the tail, I just need to know
> how to figure it as is while doing the W&B calculations.
>
> Once I get my hands on the scales, and find out where to put the wings, I
> can wrap up these last few items and...well...WOW...it is just now starting
> to hit me...I'm done!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
| From: | "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> |
If you are experiencing "negative' weight at the tail, when the longerons are level
(i.e. the plane wants to tip onto it's nose, rather than resting on three
wheels), it sounds like maybe your axle is too far back.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427152#427152
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
Bill poses a great question.... but its still unclear to me what you mean when
you say, "no tail weight."
Does this mean, you have no scales with which to weigh the tail, or, as Bill states,
is the plane balanced and no weight exists when the longerons are level?
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427154#427154
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
No pictures heh, hiding that beautiful paint job!
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:16 AM, Michael Perez wrot
e:
>
> Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L loca
tions and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc.
While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I figu
re W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tail w
heel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct? That number, (D), min
us the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from wing L.E. (
?)
>
> Should I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I wo
uld not go as far as calling it a negative weight.
>
> Any guidance would be appreciated.
>
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
I see what you mean Ryan, I could do what you suggest, that seems pretty st
raight forward.=0A=0ATom, with the longerons level, the tail tends to raise
.- It will balance on its own with a slight nose up attitude, but when le
vel, the tail will not stay put with out being tied to something.=0A=0AJack
T., I would not call my paint job pretty. It is brushed on latex and actua
lly, now that I have it out in different lighting, I see some yellowing whe
re the ekobond glue has been used and some of the parts that were painted a
few years back have a different tint to them compared to the parts more re
cently painted. It's only on the light colored areas, but I have a lot of l
ight colored areas! It does lend itself to that weathered/old/used look I l
ike, so I may leave it...=0A=0AOne thing I did think of that will help...I
=0A still have about 3 gallons of fuel in the nose tank. I will drain that
tonight and see how the tail behaves.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot
, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | weight and balance |
TWlrZeKAlHlvdXIgcGxhbmUgaXMgYWxtb3N0IGlkZW50aWNhbCBpbiBldmVyeSByZXNwZWN0IHRv
IG15IGFpcnBsYW5lIHdpdGggdGhlIGV4Y2VwdGlvbiB0aGF0IG15IGNhYmFuZSBzdHJ1dHMgYXJl
IHNsYW50ZWQgYmFjayA04oCdIGFmdCBvZiBiZWluZyB1cHJpZ2h04oCm4oCmdGhhdCBpcyB3aHkg
eW91ciB0YWlsIGlzIGZsb2F0aW5nLg0KDQpJZiB5b3UgbW92ZSB5b3VyIHdpbmcgYmFjayB0byB0
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IHdlaWdodCBvbiB0aGUgdGFpbHdoZWVsIGluIHRoZSBsZXZlbC1mbGlnaHQgY29uZmlndXJhdGlv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________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
| From: | Ken Bickers <bickers.ken(at)gmail.com> |
Jack, my son, Kevin, and I are looking forward to the bratfest. We'll be
arriving Thursday afternoon if the weather gods smile upon us. Cheers, Ken
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Jack wrote:
> Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to
> join us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
>
> * Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at
> Brodhead Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge
> of the field by the white fence.
> http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg
> <http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg>
> We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When they are gone,
> the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the 45 foot brown
> and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for great weather!
> We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & Susan Five One
> Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor *
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com> |
Mike P.,
If your gear and airframe is set up the same as Mike's then listen to what he has
to say. Now to start a little more head scratchin'... if your cabanes are
vertical and you are indeed set up like Mike's, you're actually tail heavy.
:o
But, of course as you move your wing back you'll add some weight to that tail and
lighten it up. Aerodynamically that is. Clear as mud, right. :D
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427166#427166
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
Jack, I will be there with my family. My little guy Will looks forward to i
t every year. He has already asked about it!!
Gene
On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:32 AM, Jack wrote:
> Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to j
oin us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
> Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead
Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the f
ield by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C3
7-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. W
hen they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for t
he 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope fo
r great weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & S
usan Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements!
The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-Am
erican barnstormer,
ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is cor
recteth.
My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the year
s of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should
position his wing at 3" aft
of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to move
the wing back to the 4" aft of vertical position but since Mike weighs les
s he doesn't need to move
his wing back as far as I did. The only time I've seen cabanes vertica
l are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-long nosed
Piets with 65 Continentals on them.
Mike C.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical??
Gene
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, L
LC]" wrote:
> The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements!
The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-Am
erican barnstormer,
> ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is co
rrecteth.
>
> My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the yea
rs of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should p
osition his wing at 3=9D aft
> of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to mov
e the wing back to the 4=9D aft of vertical position but since Mike we
ighs less he doesn=99t need to move
> his wing back as far as I did. The only time I=99ve seen cabane
s vertical are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-lo
ng nosed Piets with 65 Continentals on them.
>
> Mike C.
> Ohio
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
It'll look like an Anteater.
Serously, if you send me your W&B data I can calculate where the engine's cg
needs to be . But my guess is it'll be one of those "Long Nose" Pietenpols.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance
So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical??
Gene
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners,
LLC]" wrote:
The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements!
The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch,
all-American barnstormer,
ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is
correcteth.
My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the years
of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should
position his wing at 3" aft
of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to move
the wing back to the 4" aft of vertical position but since Mike weighs less
he doesn't need to move
his wing back as far as I did. The only time I've seen cabanes vertical
are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-long nosed
Piets with 65 Continentals on them.
Mike C.
Ohio
==================================
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
==================================
cs.com
==================================
matronics.com/contribution
==================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Great guys!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Jack wrote:
>
> Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to j
oin us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
> Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead
Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the f
ield by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C3
7-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. W
hen they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for t
he 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope fo
r great weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & S
usan Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Mike Cuy:
Friendly suggestion here: Resist giving Mike P. advice. He would be much better
off with a real calculation than your 'Kentucky' guess. Your comments about Mikes
plane being just like yours don't hold water for two reasons. One you have
not posted your exact W&B numbers and neither has Mike P. Maybe if mike saw
your numbers, he would shoot for something different.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second, Mike P. has a different airfoil than you do We are just about to do some
actual measurements on this issue, for you to advise Mike to Make his Cabanes
a specific length, a week before we have more data is poor advice. Your advice
is based on one report you read from Don's plane. Contrast this with the fact
that unlike you, I have seen Don's plane in person, I have further detail rigging
info on it, W&B data, and I did the W&B project. Maybe I am in a much better
position to say that Mike P. could wait for a bit more data Honestly, you
have no idea on how Mike Ps W&B even looks compard to Don's or what effect this
might have on incidence. Until next week I don't either, but I am not the
one telling Mike Ps how to build his cabanes today either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike, for being a guy who works for NASA, I would think that you of all builders
would understand that making a blanket statement about all cabanes on a very
diverse group of planes based solely on a sample size of one plane (Don's) is
very poor science. How good do you think the W&B project would have been if you
just found one guy who said he liked the way he plane flew, weighed it, and
then told every other builder from then on to make his plane just like that?
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike Cuy, if you have a PPL, than you have to know how to do a W&B calculation.
Can you explain why you are reluctant to just get Mike Ps number and do this
for him? I did this for Chris Rusch last week, and if you will not do it for Mike
P, I will be glad to. Ryan and I did the whole W&B project just so that people
whold keep using 'Kentucky' guesses, they could just calculate things exactly
--------------------------------------------
Mike P. If Mike Cuy can't/won't do it for you, send me the numbers. Level the fuselage,
and put a 5 pound weight on the horizontal stabilizer in line with the
tail wheeel axle. When you do the calculation, mathmaticaly remove this as
a tear weight. If you don't know how to do this, just send me the raw numbers,
I will use it to show everyone how this is done
-------------------------------------------------------
Right off the bat, I am going to say that any Piet that has the axle so far back
that it has no tail weight in level position, has a very good change of ending
up on its back if it has brakes. Mike P, your plane may not have this issue,
because until we see the numbers, we don't know where your wing should be. If
you have not gotten the W&B articles from Doc, I highly suggest that you do
so. If you ignore this resource in favor of the 'Kentucky' method, you may not
like the results, and it is my guess that none of the people who are offering
off the cuff advice will show up at your house and help you rebuild your plane.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Cuy, You are a great guy in many respects and you have done a lot to promote
Pietenpols and this is much appreciated, but I am politely suggesting that
offering 'Kentucky' information detracts from your contribution to Pietenpols.
Your efforts to promote the design have been sterling, why tarnish this with
poor advice when anyone with PPL level skills and our W&B articles could do an
exact calculation for Mike P?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Cuy, if you would really like to show me that your own plane is an excellent
enough example for Mike P to be following with confidence, the very simple
thing for you to do is make your next post to this list your real weight and balance
that you fly your own plane with. If you are flying at 19, 19.5 or 20",
perhaps mike should know this and not directly copy your plane and just hope
it turns out well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427179#427179
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
William-Mike Perez has copies of my W&B paperwork. He lives 15 minutes f
rom me. My advice to him on his particular Piet is sound.
Mike C.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
For any builders who have not yet met Randy, You can click on this link to a story
I wrote about him last year:
http://flycorvair.net/2013/07/11/randy-bushs-pietenpol-hits-500-hours/
I have known Randy a long time, and have always felt on the same page with him
since we shared the thought that homebuilding, the hours in your shop are vital
part of protecting your sanity in modern life. The blue print at the bottom
of the story covers this theme.
---------------------------------------------------
There are also some good photos of his plane at Oshkosh last year at this link:
http://flycorvair.net/2013/08/12/brodhead-oshkosh-and-beyond-2013/
He parked it right behind our booth, and that is were the EAA did the story for
the Experimenter. Mary Jones, my mentor in aviation writing who has worked for
the EAA for 30 years personally found the writer and stewarded the story through
publications. She is arguable the best Journalist in Light aviation. If
there is ever a story that needs telling correctly, steer it to her attention.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427186#427186
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Mike Cuy,
If Mike P. has your W&B data, it seems he doesn't yet understand it well enough
to use it. Saying thing like "7 pounds on the tailwheel" is not an adequate plan,
and anyone who understands W&B knows that is a meaningless comment, it says
nothing about where his CG is, just how far it is from the axle. My point is
that the useful numbers are very easy to calculate, and if Mike P. types in
his data just like Chris R. Did, he can have an accurate calculation from Jack,
Ryan or myself, and have a real plan.
-------------------------------------------------------
Our weight and balance data has at least six A-65 Piet examples in it. If Mike
P sends his data in he will have the benefit of a professional calculation and
the comparison to several other examples. Mike Cuy, you know something about
planes, and Mike P. is very new and green. Obviously he looks up to your experience
and you are acting as some type of advisor to him. There is a responsibility
to that, and in my book, you tell new guys to get as much information as
they can from sources with greater experience, even if you don't personally find
that source pleasant.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike P, here is my last comment ever on your project, unless you specifically ask
me to teach you something, you will not hear from me: If you think Mike Cuy
is a great guy, a better human than me, you are absolutely right. I have met
Mike Cuy and I think is probably a better person that me. You are new to aviation,
and you are at a decision point. Follow what good, pleasant people say.....or
listen to anybody who might have the answer, even if you find that person
distasteful. This is very importiant
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 years ago I decided that as a mechanic, the people who put their families in
planes I worked on were counting on me to have a very high level of expertise
in my craft. I saw this as morally obligating me to learn my craft at great
depth, no matter who I had to learn it from. Many of the things I know about planes
came from men I would not want as a father in law or a neighbor, far less
any kind of friend. None the less, they knew things that I needed to know to
be better at my craft. If you choose to restrict your learning to just instructors
you like, think are nice, go to the same church, don't use foul language,
or say tactless things, then maybe you can't honestly say that you have really
done everything in your control to minimize risk for your eventual passengers.
Think that over, answer it for yourself, make sure the answer you get isn't
just good enough for today, but good enough for the day after you have an accident
and someone gets hurt.
---------------------------------------------
One more point Mike P: You mention God in every post. The finest human being I ever met in aviation was my friend Bob Bean. In my life, I have never met a man of greater faith, not even close. You can see Bob's picture with his wife Sara here: http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ , They are both dead, a single stupid mistake in weather in a Glassair III. I am sure Bob's God protected his soul, but God did not protect his mortal life. I am very glad you soloed a plane, it is a big step, congratulations, but it concerned me that you thought it was no different than driving a car. I have been flying for 20 years, and every single take off puts me in a state of awareness of risk far beyond anything I feel driving to the gas station. Maybe I took your comment wrong, but it concerned me because people don't prepare for risk they do not perceive, and it didn't sound like you felt at risk, to say, something like the engine quitting. Bob expressed to me many times that he felt "protected" when flying, but I did not ask him to elaborate, perhaps he was just expressing the disposition of his soul, not his physical being. Something to think about.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427188#427188
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Mike (Cuy),
Just a thought, but if "Kentucky windage" is acceptable for setting the cabanes,
is it okay for trammeling the wings, or setting the camber of the wheels? Or
any host of other choices in building an airplane?
If data is available, and freely available at that, why is is so wrong to use it?
I am no aerodynamicist, and only a budding builder, but I do know that most
of these questions can be answered with something beyond "TLAR" (that looks about
right).
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427189#427189
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
It's a little unnerving alright. BUT...How are you
attaching the strut ends? Hmmmm? With
bolts drilled through holes in the tube. Right?
Yes.
So, what's the difference between holes
near the ends and a hole in the middle?
Just location for the purpose of changing
one long column into two short ones.
Oh, and just for the record I'm not advocating
that hole be in the exact center. As noted a
number of times this connection must be
made off center to limit destructive harmonic
vibration.
Clif
Interesting, I have seen several Piets with jury struts bolted through
the flying struts but I didn't have the nerve to drill holes in mine
(doesn't mean that there is any problem doing it that way).
rh
I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16" bolts
through each wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to
prevent crushing.
Mike Perez
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gene's boat anchor |
| From: | "bender" <dude(at)twc.com> |
Gene and I have had a couple of conversations about boat anchors and glider rides.
I have an A-65 on the bench next to a bunch of model A pieces. I really hate
the idea of not flying my model A but it's getting old . I have yet to resemble
the A after it quit a month or so ago. I have new pistons and I still need to
open the bores a bit I believe. I still don't have a good answer about the pistons
scoring. I'm going to open the bores to get the .005 clearance and run
it again but I'm wondering about the confidence to fly it. How many glider rides
can I have.
Jeff Faith
sdf
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427196#427196
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | brat vest and Gene's new nose... |
Jack,
Marci and I plan to be there and enjoy your hospitality. Thank you!
Gene,
I faced the same issue when I changed my Ford for the C-90. I really wanted
to keep the nose as short as possible, so my answer was to make my engine as
heavy as possible. I left on the old heavy starter, heavy generator and
mounted the batt up on the engine mount and didn't worry about saving weight
(obviously) on the cowling. I used Don Emch's mount jig and the CG ended up
just right. The nose is maybe an inch longer than my ford installation was
and I believe I had shoved the Ford forward three inches.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
I agree Cliff. I do not think it is a good idea to drill a hole through the
aluminum wing strut, insert a 3/32 eye bolt and be done.- That would cre
ate a weak point in the structure where the strut could fold right at that
eye bolt. However, if an insert is used, that insert not only prevents the
aluminum wing strut from being crushed under the eye bolt, it also prevents
the strut itself from collapsing at that spot from bending loads. This ins
ert acts like a spine inside the wing strut, it could be any length down th
rough the length of the wing strut, if the strut was going to fold under be
nding loads, it woud do it on either/both sides of this insert/spine...wher
e there are no holes drilled...where the strut is fully intact.=0A=0A-=0A
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst
engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Small Continental Conn Rod Bolts |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
Sure. Thanks!
Gene
On Jul 21, 2014, at 1:03 PM, "tkreiner" wrote:
>
> If you missed the Conn Rod Bolts last year, and want the security of knowing
the ones you're building that $4000. engine with are going to hold together, you
might be interested. I'm bringing more to Brodhead this week.
>
> These are Sealed packages of 10 NOS (New Old Stock) Conn Rod Bolts, Continental
P/N 530213.
>
> Will fit ALL A Series, C Series, O-200, O-300, and several more small Continental
engines.
>
> Shoot me an email and I'll make sure I bring enough.
>
> These are over $17.70 EACH from ACS,, but the 10 pce bag is only $100. to Piet
Builders. Savings to you $41.+ and you get 2 extra bolts.
>
> --------
> Tom Kreiner
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427071#427071
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/conn_rod_bolts_134.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca> |
Of course, every Piet is different, so this is by no means a definitive answer,
but in order to keep the cabanes vertical, with an A-65, I think the motor mount
would likely need to be extended about 8".
I have no idea what the relationship to your "cabanas" would be, though.
Bill C.
Gene wrote:
> So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical??
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427204#427204
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math |
has already been done for you
For those of you who missed this excellent post (and calculation---thank yo
u Bill!) from Bill Church on July 4th
it might be of possible interest for those using the Riblett airfoil.
Mike C.
There was a discussion about wing incidence about three years ago, and at t
hat time I created a couple of drawings to illustrate the relationship betw
een the cabane strut lengths, and also between the chord line vs the bottom
of the spars. They are attached again to this posting.
For the "to the plans" Pietenpol, the 1" difference in cabane struts create
s a 2 degree angle. Added to this is a 1 1/2 degree angle formed between t
he chord line and the bottoms of the spars (since that's where the cabanes
attach). So the effective angle of incidence between the airfoil chord and
the top longeron is 3.5 degrees.
For the Riblett 612 airfoil, there is a 2.1 degree angle between the chord
line and the bottoms of the spars. So, if a Riblett 612 airfoil is mounted
on "stock" cabanes (front 1" longer than rear), the effective AofI would be
4.1 degrees.
If the front and rear cabanes are made equal lengths, with the Riblett, the
effective angle would be reduced to only 2.1 degrees - almost 1 1/2 degre
es less than the "to the plans" Piet.
In order to produce the same 3.5 degree angle, but using the Riblett 612, t
here should be a difference of approximately 11/16" difference in cabane le
ngths (front vs back).
Food for thought.
Bill C.
http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_incidence_145.pdf
ronics.com/files/piet_incidence_145.pdf>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_incidence_159.pdf
matronics.com/files/riblett_incidence_159.pdf>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
I have various length pairs of cabane struts on hand, so I can switch them
as needed. I would need to figure out how to support the entire wing to swa
p out the cabanes. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike
Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
| From: | "curtdm(at)gmail.com" <curtdm(at)gmail.com> |
Abby and I really hoped to come but we'll be missing it this year. Have fun and
enjoy the beautiful weather.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427212#427212
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Yocum <yocum137(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
On 07/23/2014 11:45 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> I have various length pairs of cabane struts on hand, so I can switch
> them as needed. I would need to figure out how to support the entire
> wing to swap out the cabanes.
Oh, so you've got extra fuel line (if your tank is in the center
section), pitot system tubes, aileron cables, cross bracing cables, and
lift stuts, too?
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
yocum137(at)gmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
Dan...what?- I'm not saying I am making my cabanes 3" longer, I'm saying
that I could go from my all even cabanes currently, to swapping out the fro
nt and/or rear to change the angle of incidence.- I have enough adjustmen
t built into all other components to make changes, as I planned on possibly
needing to make some as flight tests get underway.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is
your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine s
tart complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Hello good Piet-ple,
Well I routed the pockets in my replacement spars a couple days ago. What I didn't
notice was that the router bit, although very tight, was slipping slightly
in the collet which was making each pass slightly deeper...! By the time I noticed
this, my pockets were about .345" deep. Well that only leaves a web thickness
of .31" and it's supposed to be .50"...!
So enjoy a couple photos of my beautiful, but now useless spar(s)....!!!
I purchased a new Porter-Cable router (it's really nice) and also placed the order
yesterday with Aircraft Spruce for new spar blanks.
I've really got this spar thing figured out so when the new planks arrive I should
be able to cut and rout them without any trouble - he said carefully...!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427218#427218
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spars_with_too_thin_web_139.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_router_jig_914.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_pocket_568.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Jake,
All I can say is, "Ouch!" But thanks for sharing with us the downs as well as the
ups. It may help the next guy NOT make that mistake.
You do such great work, though, the next ones are going to be awesome!
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427219#427219
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net> |
| Subject: | One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
Wall art is an important part of every hangar!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of aerocarjake
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...!
-->
Hello good Piet-ple,
Well I routed the pockets in my replacement spars a couple days ago. What I
didn't notice was that the router bit, although very tight, was slipping
slightly in the collet which was making each pass slightly deeper...! By
the time I noticed this, my pockets were about .345" deep. Well that only
leaves a web thickness of .31" and it's supposed to be .50"...!
So enjoy a couple photos of my beautiful, but now useless spar(s)....!!!
I purchased a new Porter-Cable router (it's really nice) and also placed the
order yesterday with Aircraft Spruce for new spar blanks.
I've really got this spar thing figured out so when the new planks arrive I
should be able to cut and rout them without any trouble - he said
carefully...!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427218#427218
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spars_with_too_thin_web_139.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_router_jig_914.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_pocket_568.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
They may make nice shelves.....
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427221#427221
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack <jack(at)textors.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Will miss you!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 23, 2014, at 12:27 PM, "curtdm(at)gmail.com" wrote:
>
>
> Abby and I really hoped to come but we'll be missing it this year. Have fun
and enjoy the beautiful weather.
>
> --------
> Curt Merdan
> Flower Mound, TX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427212#427212
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Can someone else use the material for cap strips or otherwise? Thinking out loud.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427230#427230
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
They are $156 each. I bought three - one "extra" to avert screwing up another
one - in a karma sort of way. It's kinda like bringing an umbrella so it doesn't
rain. I know if I buy three I will only use two that I actually need...!
I can always use the remaining spruce some day.
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427237#427237
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Yocum <yocum137(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
On 07/23/2014 01:22 PM, Michael Perez wrote:
> Dan...what? I'm not saying I am making my cabanes 3" longer, I'm saying
> that I could go from my all even cabanes currently, to swapping out the
> front and/or rear to change the angle of incidence. I have enough
> adjustment built into all other components to make changes, as I planned
> on possibly needing to make some as flight tests get underway.
The angle between the lift struts and the wing is about 30 degrees.
sine theta=opposite/hypotenuse. An increase of 1/2" in the "opposite"
direction will increase the length of the hypotenuse by 1 inch. Do you
really have an inch of adjustment in your lift strut forks? (honest
question - I never needed to adjust the forks on N8031 when I owned it).
What about the turnbuckles attaching your aileron cables? Can you
increase those a 1/2"?
Let us know how it works out.
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
yocum137(at)gmail.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
| From: | "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com> |
Sue and I will be there, just to insure that nothing goes to waste, of course...
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427242#427242
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
why route them??? =0A=0A=0AOn Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:14 PM, aerocarjake
wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message pos
ted by: "aerocarjake" =0A=0AThey are $156 each.- I
bought three - one "extra" to avert screwing up another one - in a karma s
ort of way. It's kinda like bringing an umbrella so it doesn't rain.- I k
now if I buy three I will only use two that I actually need...!- I can al
ways use the remaining spruce some day.=0A=0A--------=0AJake Schultz - cura
tor,=0ANewport Way Air Museum- (OK, it's just my home)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead
this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
=========================0A
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "Larry Williams" <lnawms(at)yahoo.com> |
Geez!!! Where's the friggin' delete button!!
--------
L.V.Williams
XCG, XCMR, ATP
USHPA, EAA, AMA, EPP
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427246#427246
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | phone # for Larry W |
Does anyone have Larry William's cell number? I seem to have an old one and
I wanted to see if we could hook up at Poplar Grove tomorrow to fly in
together.
Douwe
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Larry,
Just to the right of the main part of the keyboard, just below the insert key on
most keyboards. If you don't like the discussion, that is where you will find
it.
If you use it, no need to broadcast it as it would defeat the purpose of the delete,
don't you think?
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427247#427247
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: phone # for Larry W |
| From: | "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> |
Douwe,
I dont have Larry's number, but if you want Mike Danford's contact info, email
me or call me. You have my number. I think that he may be flying in tomorrow as
well. I am flying in on Friday - to Madison.
I wish it were Brodhead.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427251#427251
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
Not gonna fault ya for the new router, but be aware, it happens with them as well.
Things that will help. SQUEAKY CLEAN AND DRY shank and collet (new bits sometimes
have a light coat of oil to prevent rust). Nice and tight. Several shallow
passes reduce the forces that cause this, rather than one deep pass. ANY
SIGNS of ridges between passes are cause for alarm, stop and double check.
NICE SHARP bit also.
VERY sorry to hear this happened to you. The spars are still usable for some long
fuse pieces... I've had it happen quite a bit over the years, but thankfully
not on something so expensive.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427252#427252
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com> |
It doesn't only happen to spars.... Almost 30 years ago, while managing a small
job shop machine shop, the bosses son-in-law (Yup, one of those!), forgot to
fully tighten the end mill he was using.
The result was an 11 + inch groove in the table of a brand new Bridgeport. The
kid was only about 24 or 25 at the time, and, because he was the owners son-in-law,
I couldn't fire him. In truth, at that point, he needed a horse whipping,
but that's another story, I suppose.
So, learn from the mistake; at least your damage was limited to a $156 piece of
wood, not a brand new $13,500. Bridgeport.
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427254#427254
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Clif Dawson" <cdawson5854(at)shaw.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
Huh? I never said don't do it Mike. I did say holes are
already being drilled and from a tensile strength
standpoint this is just one more.
Since you are capturing that long tube near the
middle, no matter what method you use, you are
creating two short tubes. You could actually cut
the tube in two, connect those together again with
bolted fittings, tie in the jury strut and have the same
thing, only heavier.
The whole reason for doing the jury strut thing is to
create significantly greater resistance to bending
under compression loads, like hard landings and
strong, sudden downdrafts. Each of those shorter
tubes has much, much greater resistance to bending
under load.
If there was only tension load and never any
compression loads, bending would not be an
issue. In fact these massive struts would be
redundant. Wire cables would work just fine.
Look at your average sailboat.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut
Attachment
I agree Cliff. I do not think it is a good idea to drill a hole
through the aluminum wing strut, insert a 3/32 eye bolt and be done.
That would create a weak point in the structure where the strut could
fold right at that eye bolt. However, if an insert is used, that insert
not only prevents the aluminum wing strut from being crushed under the
eye bolt, it also prevents the strut itself from collapsing at that spot
from bending loads. This insert acts like a spine inside the wing strut,
it could be any length down through the length of the wing strut, if the
strut was going to fold under bending loads, it woud do it on
either/both sides of this insert/spine...where there are no holes
drilled...where the strut is fully intact.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
First engine start complete!
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/23/14
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
I might be late on this observation, but does that necessarily condemn the spars??
It would be legal to glue capstrips to a fairly thin web ( not sure I have
seen a min). Are we sure these dimensions are unacceptable??
Gene
On Jul 23, 2014, at 1:25 PM, "aerocarjake" wrote:
>
> Hello good Piet-ple,
>
> Well I routed the pockets in my replacement spars a couple days ago. What I didn't
notice was that the router bit, although very tight, was slipping slightly
in the collet which was making each pass slightly deeper...! By the time I
noticed this, my pockets were about .345" deep. Well that only leaves a web thickness
of .31" and it's supposed to be .50"...!
>
> So enjoy a couple photos of my beautiful, but now useless spar(s)....!!!
>
> I purchased a new Porter-Cable router (it's really nice) and also placed the
order yesterday with Aircraft Spruce for new spar blanks.
>
> I've really got this spar thing figured out so when the new planks arrive I should
be able to cut and rout them without any trouble - he said carefully...!
>
> Jake
>
> --------
> Jake Schultz - curator,
> Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427218#427218
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/spars_with_too_thin_web_139.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_router_jig_914.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_pocket_568.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com> |
It's completely legal, it's experimental... but man, they're like FORTY PERCENT
thinner...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427258#427258
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
| From: | "curtdm(at)gmail.com" <curtdm(at)gmail.com> |
What a tease. Tonight I had to fly past C37 on the way to DSM. I can't go
Brodhead for one if Jack's brats or see his project because my stay is too
short.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427259#427259
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_202.jpg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
Hello Dan. I see/hear what you are saying.- However, my cabane adjustment
, if I make it, would be to lower the rear two. Considering that my wings a
re currently level, or maybe slightly "sagging", (no adjustments/tweaking h
ave been made as of yet) and only the back cabanes would be lowered, (11/16
") if nothing else, I'll have some dihedral and/ or washout. Since I have a
llowed room for adjustment on various components for rigging/squaring, etc.
I believe if I did change the rear cabanes, it would be a non event.=0A=0A
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst
engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
Clif, I understand. I was trying to agree with you, I guess I just muddied
up the reply. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Pere
z=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
I thought I sent this reply yesterday, I guess not. So, here it is:=0A=0A
=0ALast night I drained all the fuel out of my nose tank. According to the
airfield fuel pump I used, I put 5.6 gallons into my gas can. I eventually
emptied this gas can into my fuel tank.- I then proceeded to run my engin
e for about 2 min.- I =0Afigure the fuel I drained last night was 5 gallo
ns. With this 30 pounds =0Aout of the nose area, the tail sits nicely on it
's own, no need to strap it down and the longerons are level.- Simple ove
rsight on my part. I am =0Anot going to guess as to how much weight will sh
ow on the scale at the =0Atail wheel, but I'll know for sure once I get the
scales that I =0Amentioned earlier.=0A=0A=0AAs for the weight and balance
of my aircraft, I can do and plan to do the W&B myself. Granted it has been
a long time since I have done one, however, I have the resources =0Aand sk
ill to do my own, in the various configurations, with my own real =0Aworld
weights, arms, etc.- The no weight/negative tail weight threw me =0Afor a
loop, so I asked the list what gives. As noted above, this is no =0Alonger
an issue.=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKar
etaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> |
Some data: The spars were 12 1/2 pounds each - before routing - and 8 1/2 pounds
afterwords.... FOUR pounds lighter EACH spar. Since I routed "too deep" I
figure to save perhaps THREE pounds per spar with the final ones.
Yes, I considered what repairs I could do to salvage the spars, but in the end
decided to simply "do what's right" and make new good ones.
If anyone wants to stop by Seattle for some free "cap strip or fuselage" raw material,
they are more than welcome to them. (I have a welded steel fuselage and
the rest of the wings are essentially complete so using them as hangar/wall
art is my current best option...!)
In the end I got a REALLY nice new router out of this whole experience. It's MUCH
quieter and variable speed... :-)
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427282#427282
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
Jake, I recently ordered the bargan bag of spruce from Aircraft Spruce. It
is basically ends and pieces left over.
You have started your own, cutting out the middle man.
Steve D
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, aerocarjake wrote:
> >
>
> Some data: The spars were 12 1/2 pounds each - before routing - and 8
> 1/2 pounds afterwords.... FOUR pounds lighter EACH spar. Since I routed
> "too deep" I figure to save perhaps THREE pounds per spar with the final
> ones.
>
> Yes, I considered what repairs I could do to salvage the spars, but in the
> end decided to simply "do what's right" and make new good ones.
>
> If anyone wants to stop by Seattle for some free "cap strip or fuselage"
> raw material, they are more than welcome to them. (I have a welded steel
> fuselage and the rest of the wings are essentially complete so using them
> as hangar/wall art is my current best option...!)
>
> In the end I got a REALLY nice new router out of this whole experience.
> It's MUCH quieter and variable speed... :-)
>
> --------
> Jake Schultz - curator,
> Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427282#427282
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Steve Williamson California-to-Wisconsin trip cut short |
by engine trouble
Of possible interest---Sadly, the wonderful Corvair powered Pietenpol that
Steve Williamson and his EAA Chapter built was damaged enroute to
Wisconsin following engine trouble. http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/08
/new-pietenpol-eaa-1279-french-valley-ca/
Mike C.
Ohio
Dear Friends,
Peter Griffiths and I began our cross-country adventure with high hopes of
showing off our chapter airplane at Brodhead and Oshkosh, and very much loo
ked forward to flying our airplane off of a grass strip at the spiritual ho
me of the Pietenpol Air Camper. Sadly, the Piet was only able to make it a
s far as Guymon, Oklahoma. Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the f
light from Tucumcari, New Mexico to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying
as far as Guymon, but the airplane was damaged on landing making it imposs
ible for the airplane to continue any further. The decision was made to le
ave the airplane at Guymon and continue on with our plans to attend the gat
hering at Brodhead and Oshkosh traveling by car. We will pick up the airpl
ane on the return trip and bring it home via U-Haul truck or trailer.
The airplane flew more than 1,200 miles over three days. We were having a
great time, getting some great pictures, and meeting some great people. Pe
ter and I are taking the disappointment in stride and continuing to enjoy t
he experience of a lifetime.
We will have a little work to do when we return, but the airplane will be f
lying again soon. Thank you to all who have taken an interest in following
our adventure via email or Facebook. And thanks to those who offered thei
r encouragement as we began this exciting adventure.
See you all when we return.
Steve Williamson, Pres.
EAA Chapter 1279
French Valley
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "H. Marvin Haught Jr. " <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Steve Williamson California-to-Wisconsin trip cut |
short by engine trouble
Mike, do you know the nature of the engine problem?
M. Haught
On 7/24/2014 11:15 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]
wrote:
>
> Of possible interest---Sadly, the wonderful Corvair powered Pietenpol
> that Steve Williamson and his EAA Chapter built was damaged enroute to
>
> Wisconsin following engine trouble.
> http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/08/new-pietenpol-eaa-1279-french-valley-ca/
>
> Mike C.
>
> Ohio
>
> /Dear Friends,/
>
> //
>
> /Peter Griffiths and I began our cross-country adventure with high
> hopes of showing off our chapter airplane at Brodhead and Oshkosh, and
> very much looked forward to flying our airplane off of a grass strip
> at the spiritual home of the Pietenpol Air Camper. Sadly, the Piet was
> only able to make it as far as Guymon, Oklahoma. Peter began
> experiencing engine trouble on the flight from Tucumcari, New Mexico
> to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying as far as Guymon, but the
> airplane was damaged on landing making it impossible for the airplane
> to continue any further. The decision was made to leave the airplane
> at Guymon and continue on with our plans to attend the gathering at
> Brodhead and Oshkosh traveling by car. We will pick up the airplane
> on the return trip and bring it home via U-Haul truck or trailer./
>
> //
>
> /The airplane flew more than 1,200 miles over three days. We were
> having a great time, getting some great pictures, and meeting some
> great people. Peter and I are taking the disappointment in stride and
> continuing to enjoy the experience of a lifetime. /
>
> //
>
> /We will have a little work to do when we return, but the airplane
> will be flying again soon. Thank you to all who have taken an
> interest in following our adventure via email or Facebook. And thanks
> to those who offered their encouragement as we began this exciting
> adventure./
>
> //
>
> /See you all when we return./
>
> //
>
> /Steve Williamson, Pres./
>
> /EAA Chapter 1279/
>
> /French Valley/
>
> //
>
> //
>
> *
>
>
> *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Steve Williamson California-to-Wisconsin trip cut |
short by engine trouble
Marv-what you see below is as much info as I have on Steve's airplane and w
hat all happened. I'm sure in time he'll let us know what's happened.
I have been following Steve
and Peter along on their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/profile
.php?id=100007482977341&fref=ts
Dear Friends,
Peter Griffiths and I began our cross-country adventure with high hopes of
showing off our chapter airplane at Brodhead and Oshkosh, and very much loo
ked forward to flying our airplane off of a grass strip at the spiritual ho
me of the Pietenpol Air Camper. Sadly, the Piet was only able to make it a
s far as Guymon, Oklahoma. Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the f
light from Tucumcari, New Mexico to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying
as far as Guymon, but the airplane was damaged on landing making it imposs
ible for the airplane to continue any further. The decision was made to le
ave the airplane at Guymon and continue on with our plans to attend the gat
hering at Brodhead and Oshkosh traveling by car. We will pick up the airpl
ane on the return trip and bring it home via U-Haul truck or trailer.
The airplane flew more than 1,200 miles over three days. We were having a
great time, getting some great pictures, and meeting some great people. Pe
ter and I are taking the disappointment in stride and continuing to enjoy t
he experience of a lifetime.
We will have a little work to do when we return, but the airplane will be f
lying again soon. Thank you to all who have taken an interest in following
our adventure via email or Facebook. And thanks to those who offered thei
r encouragement as we began this exciting adventure.
See you all when we return.
Steve Williamson, Pres.
EAA Chapter 1279
French Valley
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steve Williamson California-to-Wisconsin trip cut |
short b
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
I'm sure Steve and Peter will tell their story at Brodhead. Otherwise I think
they would have just loaded up and went home. Please give them the space and
time to talk about it without being provoked. We all hate it when our planes
disagree with our personal agendas.
Respectfully Requested,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427294#427294
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
| From: | Gene Rambo <generambo(at)msn.com> |
I can relate. When I routed my spars, after I finished I discovered that despite
measuring a hundred times, I had left the "unrouted" areas where the struts
attach in the wrong areas. I went ahead and routed the entire spar (except center
section, of course) and made inserts that matched the curve of the routed
edge and fit exactly into the spar. I glued them into the proper locations,
you can't tell the difference and just as strong.
Oops....
Gene
On Jul 24, 2014, at 10:29 AM, "aerocarjake" wrote:
>
> Some data: The spars were 12 1/2 pounds each - before routing - and 8 1/2 pounds
afterwords.... FOUR pounds lighter EACH spar. Since I routed "too deep"
I figure to save perhaps THREE pounds per spar with the final ones.
>
> Yes, I considered what repairs I could do to salvage the spars, but in the end
decided to simply "do what's right" and make new good ones.
>
> If anyone wants to stop by Seattle for some free "cap strip or fuselage" raw
material, they are more than welcome to them. (I have a welded steel fuselage
and the rest of the wings are essentially complete so using them as hangar/wall
art is my current best option...!)
>
> In the end I got a REALLY nice new router out of this whole experience. It's
MUCH quieter and variable speed... :-)
>
> --------
> Jake Schultz - curator,
> Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427282#427282
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rib Dimensions Drawing |
| From: | "Pocono John" <tinmotion(at)yahoo.com> |
JSeitz wrote:
> I have the same situation. The response I got on the Facebook group was to not
worry about it. The rudder versus the vertical fin + fuselage is also a bit
off (I want to say half an inch iirc). I used the listed dimensions and then took
the extra 1/8 inch off the back. The place I am still slightly contemplative
is the nose of the rib (I plan on further editing). What did you do for your
nose on the drawing?
I've been away, so I have not tackled the nose yet. To add to Earl's comment about
handrails, I had taken my Hatz Classic leading edge profile to Lowe's and
found a railing that was almost an exact match.certainly close enough I could
use it.
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427301#427301
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Yocum <yocum137(at)gmail.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
Ah, well, then you'll have about 1.5" of play to take *out* of the rear lift
strut fork and 11/16" out of the aileron cable turnbuckles. Still not a sm
all amount IMO.
--
Dan Yocum
yocum137(at)gmail.com
On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> Hello Dan. I see/hear what you are saying. However, my cabane adjustment,
if I make it, would be to lower the rear two. Considering that my wings are
currently level, or maybe slightly "sagging", (no adjustments/tweaking have
been made as of yet) and only the back cabanes would be lowered, (11/16") i
f nothing else, I'll have some dihedral and/ or washout. Since I have allowe
d room for adjustment on various components for rigging/squaring, etc. I bel
ieve if I did change the rear cabanes, it would be a non event.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steve Williamson California-to-Wisconsin trip cut |
short b
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Mike,
I received the same email from Steve, funny how we read it differently and reacted
differently.
------------------------
The two towns mentioned are about 150 miles apart by air, although Steve mentions
the engine issue, his friend flew the plane to the intended destination, and
damaged the plane on landing. The way I read it, the landing issue that stopped
the trip, not the engine issue.
------------------------------
Since it also said they were still coming to Brodhead, I figured just like Scott,
that they could just share what they knew in person when they got there, and
there wasn't any need to post a notification about it
------------------------------
I have seen the plane in person in California, and Scott has flown it, but both
of us would just rather hear directly from Steve about the event.
-------------------------------
Mike,If Steve really wanted his private email reposed on this public list before
he got to Brodhead, he could have just put it here himself. Maybe you could
make your next post about your personal W&B data.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427311#427311
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Thinking Out Loud |
The chat on jury struts has got me to wondering about their use. If I recal
l correctly, the original wing struts were steel and ribbed for strength an
d these did not require jury struts; "plain" steel and aluminum do.- The
jurys are an external brace to keep the wing struts from flexing, so why no
t brace them internally? (Could be done lighter and remove the added drag o
f the jurys.)- Thinking about the jury strut thread, would a length of al
uminum bar fitted into the aluminum Carlson wing strut at the proper locati
on, strengthen the strut just the same? If this insert needed to be very lo
ng, it could be drilled out lengthwise some to lighten it. (perhaps some sq
uare tube could be used)=0A=0A=0APicture the small Carlson wing strut with
a 3/4" by 3/4" aluminum insert fitted near the center inside. Say the inser
t is 4" long with a 3/8" hole drilled through the center of it lengthwise t
o lighten It (or square tube) and is held in place by a single bolt through
it and the strut.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike
Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Jack Phillips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> |
| Subject: | Thinking Out Loud |
Michael, the short answer is "NO". The jury struts are there to prevent
buckling of the lift struts under compressive loads, which can occur in
turbulence or in a hard landing.
Buckling has been fairly extensively studies, and the mathematician Leonhard
Euler developed an equation which predicts buckling with remarkable
accuracy, assuming the materials are homogenous:
F=\frac{\pi^2 EI}{(KL)^2}
where
F= maximum or critical force <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force> (vertical
load on column),
E= modulus of elasticity
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulus_of_elasticity> ,
I= area moment of inertia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_moment_of_inertia> ,
L= unsupported length of column,
K= column effective length factor
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ColumnEffectiveLength.png> , whose value
depends on the conditions of end support of the column, as follows.
For both ends pinned (hinged, free to rotate), K= 1.0.
For both ends fixed, K= 0.50.
For one end fixed and the other end pinned, K= 0.699....
For one end fixed and the other end free to move laterally, K= 2.0.
K Lis the effective length of the column.
Examination of this formula reveals the following interesting facts with
regard to the load-bearing ability of slender columns.
1. Elasticity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(physics)> and
not the compressive strength of the materials
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_materials> of the column
determines the critical load.
2. The critical load is directly proportional
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(mathematics)> to the second
moment of area <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_moment_of_area> of the
cross section.
3. The boundary conditions have a considerable effect on the critical
load of slender columns. The boundary conditions determine the mode of
bending and the distance between inflection points on the deflected column.
The inflection points in the deflection shape of the column are the points
at which the curvature of the column change sign and are also the points at
which the internal bending moments are zero. The closer together the
inflection points are, the higher the resulting capacity of the column.
In order to safely do without jury struts, you would need stiffer material
(steel is roughly 3 times stiffer than aluminum) and with a high second
moment of area (which basically means it need to be wider in all
directions). A long slender piece like a lift strut doesn't have a very
large critical force, or force required to initiate buckling.
Even if your lift struts were solid aluminum, my guess (without running
through the calculations) is that you would find the critical force to be in
a range that is easily imposed during turbulence or hard landings, where the
force is directly proportional to the negative G-loads imposed on the
airplane.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:56 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thinking Out Loud
The chat on jury struts has got me to wondering about their use. If I recall
correctly, the original wing struts were steel and ribbed for strength and
these did not require jury struts; "plain" steel and aluminum do. The jurys
are an external brace to keep the wing struts from flexing, so why not brace
them internally? (Could be done lighter and remove the added drag of the
jurys.) Thinking about the jury strut thread, would a length of aluminum
bar fitted into the aluminum Carlson wing strut at the proper location,
strengthen the strut just the same? If this insert needed to be very long,
it could be drilled out lengthwise some to lighten it. (perhaps some square
tube could be used)
Picture the small Carlson wing strut with a 3/4" by 3/4" aluminum insert
fitted near the center inside. Say the insert is 4" long with a 3/8" hole
drilled through the center of it lengthwise to lighten It (or square tube)
and is held in place by a single bolt through it and the strut.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
First engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shad bell <aviatorbell(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thinking Out Loud |
I would keep it simple and just use jury struts.=C2- Trying to reduce dra
g significantly on a Piet is like trying to empty out the Great Lakes with
a coffee cup.=C2- A simple strap-clamp with a bolt at the strut, and asso
ciated wing fittings and it's done.=C2- Or on the strut, =C2-you could
drill a hole, weld a thru bushing and use an eye-bolt.=C2- Many different
ways to attach to the strut.=C2- You probably could do as you mention by
stiffening the lift strut, but=C2-accuracy, fit, complexity and access t
o inspect the assembly of a tube inside the lift strut (fretting of the tub
es from vibration, and flexing)=C2-would leave me to think the old fashio
n=C2-jury strut =C2-would be better.=0A=C2-=0AJust my .02=0A=C2-=0A
Shad =0A=0A=0AOn Friday, July 25, 2014 9:28 AM, Jack Phillips wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AMichael, the short answer is
=9CNO=9D.=C2-=0AThe jury struts are there to prevent buckling of th
e lift struts under=0Acompressive loads, which can occur in turbulence or i
n a hard landing.=C2- =0A=C2- =0ABuckling has been fairly extensively
=0Astudies, and the mathematician Leonhard Euler developed an equation whic
h=0Apredicts buckling with remarkable accuracy, assuming the materials are
=0Ahomogenous: =0A=C2- =0Awhere =0A= maximum or critical force (vertic
al load=0Aon column), =0A= modulus of elasticity, =0A= area moment of i
nertia, =0A= unsupported length of column, =0A= column effective length
factor,=0Awhose value depends on the conditions of end support of the colu
mn, as follows. =0AFor both ends pinned (hinged, free to rotate), = 1.0.
=0AFor both ends fixed, = 0.50. =0AFor one end fixed and the other end p
inned, = 0.699.... =0AFor one end fixed and the other end free to=0Amove
laterally, = 2.0. =0Ais the effective length of the column. =0AExaminatio
n=0Aof this formula reveals the following interesting facts with regard to
the load-bearing=0Aability of slender columns. =0A1. Elasticity and not
the compressive strength of the materials of the column determines the crit
ical load. =0A2. The critical load is directly proportional to the secon
d moment of area of the cross section. =0A3. The boundary conditions hav
e a considerable effect on the critical load of slender columns. The bounda
ry conditions determine the mode of bending and the distance between inflec
tion points on the deflected column. The inflection points in the deflectio
n shape of the column are the points at which the curvature of the column c
hange sign and are also the points at which the internal bending moments ar
e zero. The closer together the inflection points are, the higher the resul
ting capacity of the column. =0AIn order to safely do without jury struts,
=0Ayou would need stiffer material (steel is roughly 3 times stiffer than
=0Aaluminum) and with a high second moment of area (which basically means i
t need=0Ato be wider in all directions).=C2- A long slender piece like a
lift strut doesn=99t=0Ahave a very large critical force, or force req
uired to initiate buckling. =0A=C2- =0AEven if your lift struts were soli
d=0Aaluminum, my guess (without running through the calculations) is that y
ou would=0Afind the critical force to be in a range that is easily imposed
during=0Aturbulence or hard landings, where the force is directly proportio
nal to the=0Anegative G-loads imposed on the airplane. =0A=C2- =0AJack Ph
illips =0ANX899JP =0ASmith Mountain Lake, Virginia =0A=C2- =0A=0A________
________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.
com=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Micha
el Perez=0ASent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:56=0AAM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matro
nics.com=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Thinking=0AOut Loud =0A=C2- =0AThe c
hat on jury=0Astruts has got me to wondering about their use. If I recall c
orrectly, the=0Aoriginal wing struts were steel and ribbed for strength and
these did not=0Arequire jury struts; "plain" steel and aluminum do.=C2-
The jurys are an external brace to=0Akeep the wing struts from flexing, so
why not brace=0Athem internally? (Could be done lighter and remove the adde
d drag of the jurys.)=C2- Thinking about the=0Ajury strut thread, would a
length of aluminum bar fitted into the aluminum Carlson=0Awing strut at th
e proper location, strengthen the=0Astrut just the same? If this insert nee
ded to be very long, it could be drilled=0Aout lengthwise some to lighten i
t. (perhaps some square tube could be used) =0A=C2- =0APicture the smal
l Carlson wing strut with a=0A3/4" by 3/4" aluminum insert fitted near=0Ath
e center inside. Say the insert is 4" long with a 3/8" hole drilled=0Athrou
gh the center of it lengthwise to lighten It (or square tube) and is held
=0Ain place by a single bolt through it and the strut. =0A=C2- =0AIf=0A
God is your co-pilot, switch seats =0AMike=0APerez =0AKaretakerAero =0AF
irst=0Aengine start complete! =0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matr
onics.com/contribution
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Tiny Ford Fiesta Engine... Wonder how much it weighs... |
| From: | "Mark Roberts" <mark.rbrts1(at)gmail.com> |
I am sure if Bernard were around today, he'd be messin' with this one in the nose
of an AirCamper... INteresting article and new engine from Ford.
"Ford's first three-piston motor is a 1.0-liter turbocharged powerhouse with an
aluminum block the company says is small enough to fit on a sheet of letter paper
or in a piece of carry-on luggage, with room to spare. "
"Rated at 123 horsepower, it has just three more ponies than the Fiestas standard
1.6-liter four-cylinder, but it comes with a big jump in tire-twisting torque.
Its rated at 125 lb-ft vs. 112 lb-ft, while a turbo over boost delivers up
to 148 lb-ft in 15-second bursts."
Maybe that over boost would come in handy if you see you are undershooting the
runway and need that little bit of extra Oomph when you hit the throttle!
Here's the link to the whole article... I'm staying with a 6 cylinder Corvair!
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/07/24/2014-ford-fiesta-sfe-test-drive/?intcmp=features
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427321#427321
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
| From: | Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com> |
Just do it on one side and see how that works.
Just joking. LOL
Steve "wish i were going to Broadhead/Oshkosh' D
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Dan Yocum wrote:
> Ah, well, then you'll have about 1.5" of play to take *out* of the rear
> lift strut fork and 11/16" out of the aileron cable turnbuckles. Still not
> a small amount IMO.
>
> --
> Dan Yocum
> yocum137(at)gmail.com
>
> On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Michael Perez
> wrote:
>
> Hello Dan. I see/hear what you are saying. However, my cabane
> adjustment, if I make it, would be to lower the rear two. Considering that
> my wings are currently level, or maybe slightly "sagging", (no
> adjustments/tweaking have been made as of yet) and only the back cabanes
> would be lowered, (11/16") if nothing else, I'll have some dihedral and/ or
> washout. Since I have allowed room for adjustment on various components for
> rigging/squaring, etc. I believe if I did change the rear cabanes, it
> would be a non event.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
> ==================================
> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> ==================================
> cs.com <http://cs.com>
> ==================================
> matronics.com/contribution <http://matronics.com/contribution>
> ==================================
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Sitting here wishing I was there |
| From: | "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> |
Just sitting in my office right now getting text for many telling me about their
arrivals at Brodhead. It's going to be a loooong day at the office. You all
enjoy and know that I really wish I was there. I will be in spirit. You all
have fun now. Please post Pics.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427323#427323
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short |
Dear William Wynne,
You're so right! My apologies. As I re-read Steve's e-mail below I see
that yes, they were having trouble with their Corvair engine along this tr
ip
but no, it was the landing incident that caused them to stop their journey.
(though I doubt they would have continued the trip anyway knowing they
are having trouble with the engine.)
And as far as making the progress and happenings of their flight public,
Steve Williamson himself and EAA have both intentionally joined forces to m
ake this
wonderful flight very public as Steve created a Facebook page just this mon
th to post progress about his trip (see https://www.facebook.com/profile.
php?id=100007482977341&fref=ts)
And my apologies for not posting my W&B data yet. You'll see that posted
to the list early next week. You William, seem to be the only one intere
sted in my W&B though
but I'll be glad to post it anyway.
Also you seem to be hung up on where I work for some reason and how that ma
y/may not relate to how or when or with what specifics I can/cannot help an
other builder or
how I go about that and you also seem to be very hung up on nice guys/ guy
s who tell it like it is and such but all of your hand waving in these area
s and myriad of words just confuse
people and cause them to glaze over and delete your otherwise awesome posts
about the facts of W&B, construction and engine tips, and homebuilding in
general but that is
the neat part about American freedom of speech and Experimental aircraft bu
ilders----it is an awesome, wide-open hobby, sport, and passion in many cas
es and we are all free
to give/take advice and help others along the way in the manner we see fit.
Mike C.
Ohio
Greetings Mike,
As you may already know, my partner and I are making plans to fly our Piete
npol to Brodhead/Oshkosh from our home base at French Valley in southern Ca
lifornia. It's an ambitious adventure we're planning, but, as Peter likes
to say, "You just have to look at it as ten 150-mile cross-country flights.
" (Yeah, each way!!)
I hope that you are planning on attending the Brodhead fly-in this year. I
look forward to seeing you again.
Charlie Becker at EAA HQ has asked that I send him photos and updates on ou
r progress so that he can post them on EAA's Facebook page. If you think a
nyone else would be interested in following our progress, please let me kno
w. I'm not a "blogger" or a social media type guy, but I'll do what I can.
Hope to see you at Brodhead.
Your friend,
Steve Williamson, Pres.
EAA Chapter 1279
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short |
I already have Mike C.'s Pietenpol W&B intel. and I would be very intereste
d in seeing your Pietenpol W&B posted here too, William.- Any Pietenpol W
&B numbers posted to the list would be of help to others to come, I would t
hink.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaret
aker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jim hyde <jnl96(at)yahoo.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short |
car engine in an airplane.. =0A=0A=0AOn Friday, July 25, 2014 10:18 AM, "C
uy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]"
wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A =0ADear William Wynne, =0A=C2- =0AYou=99re so
right!=C2-=C2-=C2- My apologies.=C2-=C2- As I re-read Steve
=99s e-mail below I see that yes, they were having trouble with their Co
rvair engine along this trip =0Abut no, it was the landing incident that ca
used them to stop their journey.=C2-=C2-=C2- (though I doubt they wou
ld have continued the trip anyway knowing they =0Aare having trouble with t
he engine.) =0A=C2- =0AAnd as far as making the progress and happenings o
f their flight =C2-public,=C2- Steve Williamson himself and EAA have bo
th intentionally joined forces to make this =0Awonderful flight very public
as Steve created a Facebook page just this month to post progress about hi
s trip=C2-=C2- (see https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007482
977341&fref=ts) =0A=C2- =0AAnd my apologies for not posting my W&B data
yet.=C2-=C2- You=99ll see that posted to the list early next wee
k.=C2-=C2-=C2- You William, seem to be the only one interested in my
W&B though =0Abut I=99ll be glad to post it anyway.=C2-=C2- =0A
=C2- =0AAlso you seem to be hung up on where I work for some reason and h
ow that may/may not relate to how or when or with what specifics I can/cann
ot help another builder or =0Ahow I go about that and you also seem to be v
ery hung up on nice guys/=C2- guys who tell it like it is and such but al
l of your hand waving in these areas and myriad of words just confuse =0Ape
ople and cause them to glaze over and delete your otherwise awesome posts a
bout the facts of W&B,=C2- construction and engine tips, and homebuilding
in general but that is =0Athe neat part about American freedom of speech a
nd Experimental aircraft builders----it is an awesome, wide-open hobby, spo
rt, and passion in many cases and we are all free =0Ato give/take advice an
d help others along the way in the manner we see fit.=C2-=C2- =0A=C2
- =0AMike C. =0AOhio =0A=C2- =0A=C2- =0A=C2- =0AGreetings Mike, =0A
=C2- =0AAs you may already know, my partner and I are making plans to fly
our Pietenpol to Brodhead/Oshkosh from our home base at French Valley in s
outhern California.=C2-=C2-It's an ambitious adventure we're planning,
but, as Peter likes to say, "You just have to look at it as ten 150-mile cr
oss-country flights."=C2- (Yeah, each way!!) =0A=C2- =0AI hope that you
are planning on attending the Brodhead fly-in this year.=C2- I look forw
ard to seeing you again. =0A=C2- =0ACharlie Becker at EAA HQ has asked th
at I send him photos and updates on our progress so that he can post them o
n EAA's Facebook page.=C2- If you think anyone else would be interested i
n following our progress, please let me know.=C2- I'm not a "blogger" or
a social media type guy, but I'll do what I can. =0A=C2- =0AHope to see y
ou at Brodhead. =0A=C2- =0AYour friend, =0A=C2- =0ASteve Williamson, Pr
=========================0A
==
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Thinking Out Loud |
| From: | John Woods <johnwoods(at)westnet.com.au> |
In addition to what Jack said, the jury struts also stop the struts from
failing due to harmonic vibrations. This is why they are NOT attached at
the midpoint of the strut.
John W
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short |
| From: | "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com> |
Mike Cuy,
Just because Steve had a face book page for the adventure doesn't mean it is OK
to broadcast his partners landing mishap. Your speculation that they would not
have continued the trip is just that, for all you know he fouled a plug. Do
you think they would have put the plane in a u-haul over that?
--------------------------------------------
When I was young, astronauts and the engineers of NASA were my heroes. Many of
my friends from Embry-Riddle went on to masters and PhDs in engineering and Physics,
motivated by the chance that they might work for NASA. It was the goal
of the best and the brightest. I have a hard time understanding how a person with
the anti- reading, anti-measurement, anti-testing bias and small capacity
for following a new line of thought, could even possibly work for the same organization
that my friends, brilliant people with open minds, people who loved
learning, thinking and questions more than provided answers strived to be a part
of.
--------------------------------------------------
Mike P:
The mere fact that I called you at home several months ago and told you I would
be glad to help you with learning about planes now seems like misplaced effort
on my part. I can tell you have not read my articles on W&B because the info
on my own Pietenpol is included in the story, how I transformed it by making
a mount 6" longer. I admire your loyalty to Mike Cuy. but perhaps as a guy who
can't do weight and balance, didn't read the articles, couldn't start an A-65,
just soloed for the first time, and just found out that actually being a structures
engineer takes 500X the math skills of doing a W&B, maybe you shouldn't
try 'calling me out' on W&B, especially since it was in the articles. Understand
that the reason why I am giving Mike C a hard time on W&B is actually on
your behalf: I strongly suspect that Mike is not sharing his W&B because he is
at times flying behind the aft limit. That is his choice, but when he then tells
new guys like you to build your plane just like his, I think he is doing a
disservice. If this is true, your loyalty is to the wrong guy. Mike, when you
share the numbers, be aware that I am good enough to know if you are fudging
it. You are better off telling me to drop dead and you don't have to share anything
than trying to get creative.
----------------------------------------------
Mr. Braniff:
I get that you think car engines in planes are stupid. Just to be fair, when they
work well, I expect that you will also chime in and say they are stupid. Like
when we talk about Randy Bush's plane having 500 hours on it, please call him
stupid, or Tom Brown's having 1,500, or the Last Original having 800, please
chime in and call these people stupid at that time also. Considering that BHP
was the greatest enabler of auto engine use of all time, perhaps you should
just call him stupid every time his name comes up here. I am sure it would really
open some peoples minds, those foolish people who thought BHP was a genius.
90 days ago we had a builder with a Corvair powered plane get very seriously injured
when the engine in his plane quit in the pattern, and he had a forced landing
in a swampy area. He was trapped in the plane for nearly 5 hours. In the
weeks that he was hospitalized, two internet discussion groups had dozens of
posts from people like you, all saying how terrible car engines are, and how
this never would have happed with a Lycoming/Continental/Rotax The tracking on
these sites showed that thousands of people read these comments. A month later
the report comes out, and the feds found only one tablespoon of fuel in the
plane. Not one of the anti auto engine people chimed back in to explain how certified
engines run without fuel.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427355#427355
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Perez <speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Thinking Out Loud |
Thanks for the replies. Thank you Jack for taking the time to provide a detailed
explanation. I enjoy the more in-depth posts as through these I learn the most.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
First engine start complete!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Michael Cuy's Weight & Balance---please see attachment |
William Wynne writes:
"the reason why I am giving Mike C a hard time on W&B is actually on your b
ehalf: I strongly suspect that Mike is not sharing his W&B because he is at
times flying behind the aft limit. That is his choice, but when he then te
lls new guys like you to build your plane just like his, I think he is doi
ng a disservice. If this is true, your loyalty is to the wrong guy. Mike, w
hen you share the numbers, be aware that I am good enough to know if you ar
e fudging it.
Dear William-you have such grand visions of paranoia about why I have not s
hared my weight and balance. My world is not small enough to worry abou
t what you think of me sharing or not sharing my weight and balance
with the list because the guy I am trying to help (as he stated just yester
day on the Pietenpol list) does in fact have paper copies of my original W
&B paperwork in-hand, Mike Perez. I also copied the great notes for Mik
e Perez
that I had on hand for Mike Perez that Bill Rewey authored on how to do a g
ood W&B on our little Pietnepol airplanes so Mike could have several differ
ent ways of doing his own calculations and choose the one that fit his math
ematic style and likes best.
And thankfully, with the outstanding W&B teachings and guidelines that my
Uncle Tony Bingelis authored for us in this wonderful book series on homeb
uilt aircraft, I was able to conduct an accurate and complete W&B on my ai
rplane and compare that with the dozens of Pietenpol builders whom I had me
t at Brodhead after measuring their wing set-back, knowing their personal
body weights, and talking with them about how their plane flies full fuel,
low fuel, long fuselage, short fuselage,
extended motor mount, as-plans motor mount and soforth and examining their
W&B paperwork to guide me as I built my Pietenpol and made my own decisions
. Go ahead and double check my original pencil-drawn and .pdf scanned pap
erwork from 16 years ago that I prepared for myself, for the FAA MIDO Insp
ector, and for future owner/operators of my aircraft for when I am long go
ne but certainly not for you and your little paranoia's about why I haven'
t posted my numbers to the list. I have better things to do with my li
fe than to fudge my data to see if you can catch any errors and I'm a bit s
tupid at times but I'm never stupid enough to build and fly my own airplane
in an aft-CG condition. You're wasting your time worrying about what yo
u "suspect" others are doing or not doing and what might motivate them and
you are distracting from the good nature of this list with negativity and y
our critical nature that just divides.
And William, besides making sure my plane was built to have a very safe an
d good operating CG range, I took great pains to ensure that my plane was
built to the best of my ability, using all the educational reading material
s at my disposal, and with the best aircraft-grade materials and aircraft
engine overhaul practices of the day so that I could have confidence in fly
ing safely for years to come and so that I would have confidence in giving
rides to precious Mom's, Dad's, Grandparents, sons, daughters, school k
ids, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Aunts, Uncles, little kids, big kids, old g
uys, young guys, young gals, old gals, Aunts, nieces, nephews, neighbo
r kids, 4-H kids, Young Eagle kids, my own brother, dearest friend Bill
, the EAA photographers in the trenches at New Holstein, an F-18 West Co
ast Demonstration Team pilot who was building his own RV-6 (named James Sh
oenberger in case you "suspect that Mike Cuy isn't telling the truth...agai
n.." ) , A Pearl Harbor survivor, an airport bum, people at the Brodhead f
ly-in and many other fly-in's around Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, a high s
chool friend and his children, his wife, his best friend...... and yes, ev
en Michael Perez, his lovely wife Susan , and his two boys.
Even last night I gave a ride to a precious High School senior from the are
a who means the world to me and her Mom, a Kindergarten school mate of min
e from 50 years ago (that would be 1964) (we were 5 when me met) allowed
her daughter to take flight with me and I had no reservations about giving
her that ride and sharing this wonderful gift of flight that we ultimately
build a 2-seat, open cockpit airplane for.
Mike C.
Ohio
[cid:image001.jpg(at)01CFA8D3.1754C130]
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | take a 36 second Pietenpol ride with Rachel and I |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdtgC10zNuA&feature=em-upload_owner
What a gorgeously smooth night it was last night in the Cleveland area. F
or all of you out there building or just starting to build or even just dre
aming about
building a Pietnepol, here's a little slice of Pietenpol heaven for you al
l that I have been so BLESSED to be able to share with so many over the yea
rs.
Keep building, keep working in your shops little by little and don't give
up the dream of completing your VERY OWN Pietenpol Air Camper. Even 16 y
ears
after first flying my Pietenpol the joy and fulfillment of taking someone f
or their first Pietenpol ride hasn't diminished or dimmed ONE bit!
I hope you all enjoy the flight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike C.
Ohio
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov> |
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July 13, 2014 - July 26, 2014
Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-np