Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-oc

March 18, 2015 - April 02, 2015



      format.  Here's the link to the old information page for the Pietenpol
      List, with various links to access the archived information.
      > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List
      > Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very top
      of the Forum page  (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ).  It just isn't explicitly stated
      that the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted after
      April 2006. 
      > 
      > Bill C.
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > Read this topic online here:
      > 
      > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > 
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________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BRS in a Piet?
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 18, 2015
Jack: if a BRS for a Piet costs $5000 installed, it would increase the asking price of my Air Camper by 50%, not 33%. Most Piet enthusiasts that I know would rather save the $5000 to buy an overhauled A65 to power the rebuilt crashed hulk rather than spend it on a 'chute ;o) -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439577#439577 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless....
From: "biplan53" <biplan53(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 18, 2015
I tell ya he looked pretty wild running out there with that hat and no shirt. -------- Building steel fuselage aircamper. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439579#439579 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Even though I=99m not a Corvair guy, I will weigh in on this one. The Corvair was designed to be an automobile engine. It has proven to be adaptable to be used in an aircraft, but one area that is somewhat weak is its crankshaft. An auto engine crankshaft does not encounter the huge gyroscopic loads that a spinning propeller induces. Hence, auto engines typically have crankshaft bearing that are perhaps an inch or two long. Even a low powered aircraft engine like a Continental A65 has a much longer front bearing, as shown below: If you plan to use a Corvair, doesn=99t it just make sense to follow the advice of William Wynne, who has pretty much devoted his life to modifying and studying these engines? Sure, it=99s an experimental aircraft and no one can make you do anything to decrease risk or increase safety, but we would all be remiss if we don=99t at least encourage you to follow the path with the greatest safety. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Groah Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study To answer your question I was using a Chevrolet crank that had been magnafluxed, machined and nitrided by the provider recommended by WW. I felt at the time this gave me the best possible non-5th bearing crank. It really sounds like you've already decided not to use a 5th bearing but I really do urge you to reconsider. As Gary mentioned it will be some time before you need that part and you can save up the cash. It took me four and a half years to finish my plane. Lets say you go with the $1100 retrofit 5th bearing as Gary did and you need it in three years. That's only about $30 a month you'll need to save. Leave out the coffee, 32 oz from the mini mart or be the DD instead of having a beer when out with the guys. The sacrafice will be no fun but flying your own Pietenpol without having to worry about the crank will be. _____ From: Andy Garrett <andy_garrett(at)live.com <mailto:andy_garrett(at)live.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study > Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of the published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweeping statements like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. That means that if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'. It's hard to dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask what crank you were using when it broke? Who did the work to it? Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me feel vindicated in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets are flying with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have they had if any? Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless debate over expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact, that is probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pretty much everything with that and have had no problems. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piete npol-List <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439564#439564> " target="_blank">http://www.m -Matt Dralle, List Admin.====== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Andy, Asking questions is good, it is how you learn. But do stop and think, today you are objecting to a $1050 5th bearing on a Corvair, which will be in operation every single revolution of the crank, but yesterdays question was on multi thousand dollar BRS that hopefully will never be used. Keep working toward a more balanced perspective...... ------------------------------------------------ I spoke with Andrew Pietenpol, BHP's Grandson on the phone for an hour last night. Subject: BHP lived in very hard times, in an area that was known for hard times. Neither he, nor his neighbors was ever prosperus by any national standard, Yet the man had the will to build and fly his creations. Andrew stated that his grandfather was a very, very tough guy who worked so hard he had a heart attack in his 40's. Few of us could fathom the chain of working days in the man's life. Maybe a guy making minimum wage has a much better chance of seeing the world through BHP's eyes. Read my take on Sterling Hayden's famous quote on being able to afford adventure here: http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/03/sterling-hayden-philosophy/ --------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Shared that in 1946-50 it cost about $1,000 to build a Piet. By my guess, that was an astronomical amount of money in post war rural Minnesota, and earning $32K/year now makes one comparatively very wealthy today. ------------------------------------------------------------- Here is my perspective: Aviation costs money. About the least expensive plane I can picture has an all up cost of $10,000. Lets say that you take 8 years to build it, thats $1,250/year or $3 and 42 cents a day. If you smoke or drink coffee, you spend a lot more than this. Dont like to hear about 8 years? Want to change that? Here is the easy way: Do nothing this year, and next year it will be nine years. $20 a day for 3 years is $21,900. For that kind of money you can have many airplanes. Being wealthy isnt the key, getting started is. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Most people who quit, do so because they lost interest or motivation. Very few people actually quit because they ran out of money. It this was the case, the projects for sale would all have every bit of the detailed labor done, but you never see them for sale that way. Thus it is foolish to look for ways to save money, but spend little time figuring out how to stay motivated. Figuring out what "recharges the motivation battery" is much more important than looking for deals For some of us it is hanging out with a guy wearing a sock money hat standing bare chested in the prop blast at 35 degrees. ----------------------------------------------------------------- When I flew my Piet to Brodhead in 2000, I worked as a GA A&P self employed mechanic and made about $12K in a bad year, $15K in a good one. To save money then, I did things like drive a 1986 Chevy truck. Today, 15 years later, I still drive a 1986 Chevy truck. 180 car payments I never made since then has paid for a giant amount of building and flying. -------------------------------------------------------- P F Beck's Piet pictured here: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/11/pietenpol-review-in-pictures-15-more-corvair-powered-piets/ was built for $6,800 including the electric start Corvair. With a 5th bearing, this is still less than $8K. It has flown more than 250 passengers. It has been the door to Pietenpols for many people, and an inspirational example for cloning: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/17/nwe-pietenpol-2700-corvair-don-harper-sc/ ---------------------------------------------------------- If your piet has brakes, paint that cost more than $20/gallon, a radio, any kind of an interior, but it does not have a 5th bearing, then IMHO, you are making a value-judgment error. That is just my opinion, but it is based on a lot of observation. Read: http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-the-wrong-place/ -------------------------------------------------------------- This story was the #2 most read story on our main site in 2014: http://flycorvair.net/2012/11/17/steel-tube-fuselages-safe-planes-and-250mph-accidents/ Read it and develop some values about where to put your money in your project. (The story is not against any method of construction, it is about how the right answer is situational and personal). ------------------------------------------------------ The comments that most people who are not yet flying a Corvair powered plane make about Piet's not needing 5th bearings are either not valid, or situationally not true, taken out of context. The only Piet motor we have built in 8 years without a 5th bearing is the one for "the last original" Bill Knight decided that it was vitally important that the engine stay externally as a BHP installation. (inside it is all modern stuff) We had a very specially inspected, nitride, low mileage crank prepped for the engine by Moldex Cranks in Detroit. The one that comes in most cores, is not nearly in this good condition. No local crank grinder and prep and NDT a crank like Moldex Read: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/16/getting-started-in-2013-part-1-crankshaft-process-options/ To come to some conclusion like 'it worked for 45 years, it will work for me today' and then taking the crank to a local machine shop that destroys the radius in the fillets, ignores the critical fact that almost none of the cranks in the early planes were reground. They were original. Regrinding works just like new, but only when it is done by people who make it just like new. If you don't have that, you don't have what the early guys had, and you will not have the same results. ---------------------------------------------------------- VERY IMPORTANT: Isaac Newton didn't invent gravity. He didn't make anything. All he did was observe what was going on, and find a way of speaking articulately of it that allowed people a much better perspective on how things work. Connection: Builders occasionally talk about 'the ww philosophy" as is I invented something that didn't exist before. That isn't factual. In reality, I am just doing a tiny version of what Newton did, which is observe what is happening for a long time, see it though many sets of eyes, and then discuss it in an articulate way that allows builders to form a sharper personal perspective. That is where both this: http://flycorvair.net/2015/01/12/thought-for-the-day-collection/ and this page http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ come from. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439584#439584 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
On the 85 too http://textors.com/IMG_4766_640x427.jpg Other pictures of my C85 build can be seen here http://textors.com/PietProje ct.html Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Mar 19, 2015, at 7:15 AM, "Jack Philips" wro te: > > Even though I=99m not a Corvair guy, I will weigh in on this one. T he Corvair was designed to be an automobile engine. It has proven to be ada ptable to be used in an aircraft, but one area that is somewhat weak is its c rankshaft. An auto engine crankshaft does not encounter the huge gyroscopic loads that a spinning propeller induces. Hence, auto engines typically hav e crankshaft bearing that are perhaps an inch or two long. Even a low power ed aircraft engine like a Continental A65 has a much longer front bearing, a s shown below: > > > > If you plan to use a Corvair, doesn=99t it just make sense to follow the advice of William Wynne, who has pretty much devoted his life to modify ing and studying these engines? Sure, it=99s an experimental aircraft and no one can make you do anything to decrease risk or increase safety, bu t we would all be remiss if we don=99t at least encourage you to follo w the path with the greatest safety. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Groah > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 9:49 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study > > To answer your question I was using a Chevrolet crank that had been magnaf luxed, machined and nitrided by the provider recommended by WW. I felt at t he time this gave me the best possible non-5th bearing crank. > > It really sounds like you've already decided not to use a 5th bearing but I really do urge you to reconsider. As Gary mentioned it will be some time b efore you need that part and you can save up the cash. It took me four and a half years to finish my plane. Lets say you go with the $1100 retrofit 5th bearing as Gary did and you need it in three years. That's only about $30 a month you'll need to save. Leave out the coffee, 32 oz from the mini mart o r be the DD instead of having a beer when out with the guys. The sacrafice w ill be no fun but flying your own Pietenpol without having to worry about th e crank will be. > > From: Andy Garrett <andy_garrett(at)live.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:49 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study > m> > > Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of the published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweepin g statements like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. That means that if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'. I t's hard to dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask what crank you were using when it broke? Who did the work to it? > > Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me fe el vindicated in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets ar e flying with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have t hey had if any? > > Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless deba te over expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact, that is probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pret ty much everything with that and have had no problems. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pieten pol-List" target="_blank">http://www.m -Matt Dralle, List Ad min.====== > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: Gardiner Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Very good explanation Jack and I agree with you. Gardiner. Sent from my iPad > On Mar 19, 2015, at 8:15 AM, "Jack Philips" wro te: > > Even though I=99m not a Corvair guy, I will weigh in on this one. T he Corvair was designed to be an automobile engine. It has proven to be ada ptable to be used in an aircraft, but one area that is somewhat weak is its c rankshaft. An auto engine crankshaft does not encounter the huge gyroscopic loads that a spinning propeller induces. Hence, auto engines typically hav e crankshaft bearing that are perhaps an inch or two long. Even a low power ed aircraft engine like a Continental A65 has a much longer front bearing, a s shown below: > > > > If you plan to use a Corvair, doesn=99t it just make sense to follow the advice of William Wynne, who has pretty much devoted his life to modify ing and studying these engines? Sure, it=99s an experimental aircraft and no one can make you do anything to decrease risk or increase safety, bu t we would all be remiss if we don=99t at least encourage you to follo w the path with the greatest safety. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Groah > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 9:49 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study > > To answer your question I was using a Chevrolet crank that had been magnaf luxed, machined and nitrided by the provider recommended by WW. I felt at t he time this gave me the best possible non-5th bearing crank. > > It really sounds like you've already decided not to use a 5th bearing but I really do urge you to reconsider. As Gary mentioned it will be some time b efore you need that part and you can save up the cash. It took me four and a half years to finish my plane. Lets say you go with the $1100 retrofit 5th bearing as Gary did and you need it in three years. That's only about $30 a month you'll need to save. Leave out the coffee, 32 oz from the mini mart o r be the DD instead of having a beer when out with the guys. The sacrafice w ill be no fun but flying your own Pietenpol without having to worry about th e crank will be. > > From: Andy Garrett <andy_garrett(at)live.com> > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:49 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study > m> > > Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of the published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweepin g statements like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. That means that if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'. I t's hard to dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask what crank you were using when it broke? Who did the work to it? > > Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me fe el vindicated in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets ar e flying with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have t hey had if any? > > Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless deba te over expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact, that is probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pret ty much everything with that and have had no problems. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pieten pol-List" target="_blank">http://www.m -Matt Dralle, List Ad min.====== > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Let me tag on this thought: http://flycorvair.net/2014/06/16/thought-for-the-day-the-cost-of-economy/ Doing things the right way usually costs a fair amount of money, but doing them the cheap way always costs a fortune. -ww. ------------------------------- A conspicuous consumer only has the admiration of the envious spectator. A craftsman, an innovator and a champion have the admiration of real aviators. I have not devoted my working life to experimental aviation to chase pointless trends and distractions. I am in aviation to find my place in the timeless truths that any real aviator since 1903 would immediately understand. Charles Lindbergh passed from this earth in 1974 having never seen a glass cockpit. His understanding of the awe inspiring beauty of flight was not diminished by the lack of a little screen to stare at. This is a good way to evaluate the essential from the accessory. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439589#439589 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: engine failure
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Douwe Jack's engine-out story reminded me to ask. What turned out to be the issue which forced down the Piet trying to fly out to Brodhead from CA last year? Never heard much about it, but as always, sharing engine-out details is EXTREMELY helpful as is how they dealt with the landing. If anyone knows details, I'd sure be interested. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: engine failure
Date: Mar 19, 2015
As I recall, and to be brief, Chinese lifters. Gary Sent from my iPad > On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:20 AM, Douwe Blumberg w rote: > > Douwe > > Jack=99s engine-out story reminded me to ask > > What turned out to be the issue which forced down the Piet trying to fly o ut to Brodhead from CA last year? Never heard much about it, but as always, sharing engine-out details is EXTREMELY helpful as is how they dealt with t he landing. > > If anyone knows details, I=99d sure be interested. > > Douwe > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Dowe, The guys who are partners in the plane drove the rest of the way to Oshkosh, and I spoke with them in person at my booth and looked at all of their photos 3 days after the incident. The issue with the plane was the carb, and it was the same kind of carb that is on your Continental. The plane was flown a 150 mile leg with the engine running progressively worse. It flew all the way to the airport, but the partner/pilot made a tense landing at an unfamiliar paved airport, probably landing down wind. Worked ok, right up to the point the airplane went over on its back. I had seen this plane in person in CA, spoken with the builders, done a W&B on it before it was covered, etc. Two lessons anyone can learn: When I tell someone that their landing gear is way too far back for a plane with brakes, they should listen. I said that to the owner at Brodhead after I weighed it, and it also has the CG too far aft. It would have been easy to fix then. Second, They had 'get there itus' about continuing the flight with existing evidence the carb was not correct. A factor was they had told many people they were going to be at Brodhead, etc, when your plane is not running correctly, STOP and fix it. Dowe, I like to give people the beinift of the doubt, but I suspect you have some angle here because you started a new topic here called "engine failure" about something 9 months old. Something that wasn't an engine failure at all. Can you explain you sudden motivation on this? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439594#439594 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Gary, Those guys also broke a Chinese rocker arm on a separate issue, but it didn't cause the engine to quit. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439595#439595 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Andy I agree with William 100% on this. I spared no expense when I built my Pietenpol, using all aircraft grade materials, polyurethane paint (big mistake), a freshly overhauled A65 Continental with brand new Millenium cylinders (the single largest purchase on the entire project), etc. The total was $15,000 of which half was the engine (and half of the engine was those new cylinders). It took me 8 years to build it. I like to tell people I spent on this airplane what a 2 pack a day smoker would have spent on cigarettes in the same time frame. Don't fret over spending money on high risk areas, like spars and crankshafts. Far better to delay the project a few months while you save the money to buy that 5th bearing or that aircraft-grade spruce spar than to rush through it and then worry every time you get bounced around in turbulence. Peace of mind is priceless. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Wynne Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 9:05 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment --> Andy, Asking questions is good, it is how you learn. But do stop and think, today you are objecting to a $1050 5th bearing on a Corvair, which will be in operation every single revolution of the crank, but yesterdays question was on multi thousand dollar BRS that hopefully will never be used. Keep working toward a more balanced perspective...... ------------------------------------------------ I spoke with Andrew Pietenpol, BHP's Grandson on the phone for an hour last night. Subject: BHP lived in very hard times, in an area that was known for hard times. Neither he, nor his neighbors was ever prosperus by any national standard, Yet the man had the will to build and fly his creations. Andrew stated that his grandfather was a very, very tough guy who worked so hard he had a heart attack in his 40's. Few of us could fathom the chain of working days in the man's life. Maybe a guy making minimum wage has a much better chance of seeing the world through BHP's eyes. Read my take on Sterling Hayden's famous quote on being able to afford adventure here: http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/03/sterling-hayden-philosophy/ --------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Shared that in 1946-50 it cost about $1,000 to build a Piet. By my guess, that was an astronomical amount of money in post war rural Minnesota, and earning $32K/year now makes one comparatively very wealthy today. ------------------------------------------------------------- Here is my perspective: Aviation costs money. About the least expensive plane I can picture has an all up cost of $10,000. Lets say that you take 8 years to build it, thats $1,250/year or $3 and 42 cents a day. If you smoke or drink coffee, you spend a lot more than this. Dont like to hear about 8 years? Want to change that? Here is the easy way: Do nothing this year, and next year it will be nine years. $20 a day for 3 years is $21,900. For that kind of money you can have many airplanes. Being wealthy isnt the key, getting started is. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Most people who quit, do so because they lost interest or motivation. Very few people actually quit because they ran out of money. It this was the case, the projects for sale would all have every bit of the detailed labor done, but you never see them for sale that way. Thus it is foolish to look for ways to save money, but spend little time figuring out how to stay motivated. Figuring out what "recharges the motivation battery" is much more important than looking for deals For some of us it is hanging out with a guy wearing a sock money hat standing bare chested in the prop blast at 35 degrees. ----------------------------------------------------------------- When I flew my Piet to Brodhead in 2000, I worked as a GA A&P self employed mechanic and made about $12K in a bad year, $15K in a good one. To save money then, I did things like drive a 1986 Chevy truck. Today, 15 years later, I still drive a 1986 Chevy truck. 180 car payments I never made since then has paid for a giant amount of building and flying. -------------------------------------------------------- P F Beck's Piet pictured here: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/11/pietenpol-review-in-pictures-15-more-corvair-powered-piets/ was built for $6,800 including the electric start Corvair. With a 5th bearing, this is still less than $8K. It has flown more than 250 passengers. It has been the door to Pietenpols for many people, and an inspirational example for cloning: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/17/nwe-pietenpol-2700-corvair-don-harper-sc/ ---------------------------------------------------------- If your piet has brakes, paint that cost more than $20/gallon, a radio, any kind of an interior, but it does not have a 5th bearing, then IMHO, you are making a value-judgment error. That is just my opinion, but it is based on a lot of observation. Read: http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-the-wrong-place/ -------------------------------------------------------------- This story was the #2 most read story on our main site in 2014: http://flycorvair.net/2012/11/17/steel-tube-fuselages-safe-planes-and-250mph-accidents/ Read it and develop some values about where to put your money in your project. (The story is not against any method of construction, it is about how the right answer is situational and personal). ------------------------------------------------------ The comments that most people who are not yet flying a Corvair powered plane make about Piet's not needing 5th bearings are either not valid, or situationally not true, taken out of context. The only Piet motor we have built in 8 years without a 5th bearing is the one for "the last original" Bill Knight decided that it was vitally important that the engine stay externally as a BHP installation. (inside it is all modern stuff) We had a very specially inspected, nitride, low mileage crank prepped for the engine by Moldex Cranks in Detroit. The one that comes in most cores, is not nearly in this good condition. No local crank grinder and prep and NDT a crank like Moldex Read: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/16/getting-started-in-2013-part-1-crankshaft-process-options/ To come to some conclusion like 'it worked for 45 years, it will work for me today' and then taking the crank to a local machine shop that destroys the radius in the fillets, ignores the critical fact that almost ! none of the cranks in the early planes were reground. They were original. Regrinding works just like new, but only when it is done by people who make it just like new. If you don't have that, you don't have what the early guys had, and you will not have the same results. ---------------------------------------------------------- VERY IMPORTANT: Isaac Newton didn't invent gravity. He didn't make anything. All he did was observe what was going on, and find a way of speaking articulately of it that allowed people a much better perspective on how things work. Connection: Builders occasionally talk about 'the ww philosophy" as is I invented something that didn't exist before. That isn't factual. In reality, I am just doing a tiny version of what Newton did, which is observe what is happening for a long time, see it though many sets of eyes, and then discuss it in an articulate way that allows builders to form a sharper personal perspective. That is where both this: http://flycorvair.net/2015/01/12/thought-for-the-day-collection/ and this page http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ come from. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439584#439584 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
[quote="Andy Garrett"]...Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... Boy, I love being the farside corner who gets in for the late hit...but if you're still willing to put up with the nattering nabobs of negativity, here's one more. You used the phrase "...on who knows how many..." Exactly. The sampling size of ALL airplanes powered by Corvair engines is 1) somewhat unknown and 2) tiny compared to Continental/Lycoming/Rotax (4 cycle). Worse, the number of crank failures in Corvair aircraft use is also unknown. And remember, of the ones we do know of, some (maybe several) did not result in accidents that required reporting. We only know about what may be the tip of an iceberg because someone felt the need to share his experience with his colleagues. Thank goodness. Bottom line: the available data are too meager to find much comfort in anecdotal successes, even if 48 years have gone by. Plus, for what can be confirmed, the percentage of Corvair crank breaks in aviation applications may be way more than the percentage for Continental/Lycoming/Rotax. I was very interested in Corvair conversions for a long time. I bought two used engines. I bought a manual and parts from William. I attended a Corvair College. I began the build, but all the while, I was keeping my eye on reports of crank breaks. I kept mollifying myself that there weren't that many and they seemed to only occur in relatively higher-performance installations. Then they started breaking in pokie planes like Pietenpols and Cub-a-likes. This included engines that, to some degree, followed the William Wynne approach. William and others responded SUPERLATIVELY, in my opinion, not hiding from the problem and vigorously looking for a solution. But for me, all this was prior to the 5th bearing being tested and sold, plus a flying Piet became available, so I gave all my Corvair stuff to a friend who's an A&P and who has lots of experience with experimental aircraft and both certified and experimental engines. Somewhat as an aside, I did not, nor do not, think that the effectiveness of nitriding the crank has been proven. Theoretically it may help, but the sampling size of WW-inspired engines in flying airplanes with nitrided cranks but without 5th bearings is a tiny subset of a subset of a set that itself is small. This long-winded way to say that I agree with the others that the 5th bearing is the way to go. As does William. I'd probably be flying behind a Corvair with a 5th bearing now if that set-up had been available at the time I was tinkering with the build. Regardless of how you proceed, I'm very excited for you. I just spent a half hour yesterday practicing circuits in the Piet. What a great way to usher in Spring! doing it behind a smooth-running Corvair would've made it even better! And now the refs are throwing flags for this late hit. Sorry about that! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439602#439602 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: new crank costs
Date: Mar 19, 2015
[cid:image001.png(at)01D06238.0C4A7040] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new crank costs
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Mike, The crank you have pictured is a Dan Weseman billet crank for a Corvair. He has produced a few dozen of these, and I have built a number of engines with them, including the first one, which went into Dan's Panther prototype. You can see a picture of Dan, the engine and myself here: http://flycorvair.net/2013/06/24/why-not-the-panther-engine/ We are neighbors at the same small airpark in Florida. The high end price listed includes the CNC billet 5th bearing housing. The Wesemans also process original 8409 GM forged cranks. The cost for one fully prepped with a 5th bearing is about $2300, Thus the billet crank is about a $1,100 upgrade on a first class engine. BTW, both cranks are done by the same shop, they are both outstanding quality. Although the Wesemans sell the crank by itself, they clearly tell every buyer it is to be used with a 5th bearing. The last certified crank we bought was for our neighbors IO-360 Lycoming last year, it was $3,950. Highest price I paid for an aircraft crank, $8,900 for a TSIO-550B Continental that had the VAR crank AD. The Weseman stuff is cheap by some comparisons. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439607#439607 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2015
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
My experience was very similar to Jeff's. When I started building the only Corvairs breaking cranks were on KR's and similar aircraft. Then Shad Bell had a crank break on his Dad's Piet. I ended up selling all my Corvair parts and going with a Continental and never regretted it. This was all before the 5th bearings came available. At the time I couldn't get anyone to insure a Piet with a Corvair. Hopefully this situation has changed by now, but that was my experience around 2008-2009. On a more somber note, while you can build a Pietenpol airframe for very little money, by the time you get it covered and an airworthy engine on it plan to spend in the neighborhood of $12K, about what a used one sells for on Barnstormers. I used locally bought douglas fir and did my finish with latex and still ended up north of that. I hate to be a wet blanket, but after its finished you still need to rent a hangar to store it in. On a positive note, a wooden plans built airplane is still the least expensive way to go, because at least for the airframe you are never spending tons of money at a time. The engine decision can be postponed a few years while you are building. During that time come to Brodhead and watch the Fords, Corvairs, and Continentals fly around the pattern for a comparison. The summer of 2008 I spent two days taking pictures of the 10 or so Pietenpols there and stole lots of ideas. You also get a chance to meet face to face with lots of the folks on this list. Good luck with your build Andy, Ben Charvet NX866BC 250 hrs and still living the dream On 3/19/2015 11:25 AM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > > [quote="Andy Garrett"]...Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... > > Boy, I love being the farside corner who gets in for the late hit...but if you're still willing to put up with the nattering nabobs of negativity, here's one more. > > You used the phrase "...on who knows how many..." > > Exactly. > > The sampling size of ALL airplanes powered by Corvair engines is 1) somewhat unknown and 2) tiny compared to Continental/Lycoming/Rotax (4 cycle). Worse, the number of crank failures in Corvair aircraft use is also unknown. And remember, of the ones we do know of, some (maybe several) did not result in accidents that required reporting. We only know about what may be the tip of an iceberg because someone felt the need to share his experience with his colleagues. Thank goodness. > > Bottom line: the available data are too meager to find much comfort in anecdotal successes, even if 48 years have gone by. Plus, for what can be confirmed, the percentage of Corvair crank breaks in aviation applications may be way more than the percentage for Continental/Lycoming/Rotax. > > I was very interested in Corvair conversions for a long time. I bought two used engines. I bought a manual and parts from William. I attended a Corvair College. I began the build, but all the while, I was keeping my eye on reports of crank breaks. I kept mollifying myself that there weren't that many and they seemed to only occur in relatively higher-performance installations. > > Then they started breaking in pokie planes like Pietenpols and Cub-a-likes. This included engines that, to some degree, followed the William Wynne approach. William and others responded SUPERLATIVELY, in my opinion, not hiding from the problem and vigorously looking for a solution. > > But for me, all this was prior to the 5th bearing being tested and sold, plus a flying Piet became available, so I gave all my Corvair stuff to a friend who's an A&P and who has lots of experience with experimental aircraft and both certified and experimental engines. > > Somewhat as an aside, I did not, nor do not, think that the effectiveness of nitriding the crank has been proven. Theoretically it may help, but the sampling size of WW-inspired engines in flying airplanes with nitrided cranks but without 5th bearings is a tiny subset of a subset of a set that itself is small. > > This long-winded way to say that I agree with the others that the 5th bearing is the way to go. As does William. I'd probably be flying behind a Corvair with a 5th bearing now if that set-up had been available at the time I was tinkering with the build. > > Regardless of how you proceed, I'm very excited for you. I just spent a half hour yesterday practicing circuits in the Piet. What a great way to usher in Spring! doing it behind a smooth-running Corvair would've made it even better! > > And now the refs are throwing flags for this late hit. Sorry about that! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439602#439602 > > -- Ben Charvet, PharmD Staff Pharmacist Parrish Medical center ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: BRS in a Piet?
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Thanks for the great responses gang! When I bought my Airbike it had one installed, but that is a lighter aircraft (light-sport, but can be built as an ultralight). They are common on those airframes, and cheaper since they are smaller canopies. That big red handle always gave me a warm and fuzzy. >From a look of the accident reports, none were caused by catastrophic structure failure, and most were far too close to the ground for a chute to be of use. As far as I'm concerned, this idea is 'put to bed'. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439610#439610 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Ben, Corvairs built to our basic layout have been insurable by the EAA's recommended company, Falcon Insurance since 2004. There was a brief period in 2007 where they regrouped and required conversion companies like us to submit documentation on what we do. We passed this with flying colors, and today the insurance rate for a Corvair is the same as an O-200. In the past, Falcon has had high rates for conventional gear planes, and student pilots, and pilots over 75. Most of this has changed. If you would like to see a photo of me meeting with the VP and lead Tech for Falcon insurance at Oshkosh 2004, it is above 5 photos down at this link: http://www.flycorvair.com/osh2004.html There are also a number of Brodhead 2004 photos there, including one of Doc, Mike Cuy and Alex Sloan. Some nice shots from the air. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439611#439611 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Ben, All good points. But even at $12,000 you have a "real" airplane vs a marginal two seat heavy ultralight. It also turns pilot heads at airports. Though there is an argument that it is not a chick magnet but rather a "Chuck" magnet. Chuck being the typical airport bum. Middle age or older and all with a war story. You can use the smallest hangar out there or look around and see if you can share with someone. The piet has a fairly small footprint, especially when put on it's nose. I rented for years, and shared and owned a ratty old 1940s hangar. I bought a new hangar for my old Vtail Bonanza and my Piet. The cost of the hangar was about the same as the value of both planes. (my wife never lets me forget that) However, I also store a small trailer, old bedsteads, parts and pieces for my planes, Christmas items and a freezer. It has crappy workbenches, lockers and shelving for storage and I have yet to get my tools properly distributed between the hangar and my garage. I also have various chairs and stools, a cot, a small fridge and microwave, a small propane grill and small charcoal grill, a big old TV with a VCR and lots of old videos, a basketball goal and a good old radio/cd player. When my wife comes out she does small projects and loafs. When my Piet flies we will resume our old habit of treating the hangar as a get away spot. I will then start piddling with the Vtail and getting it ready for an annual. Except for the plane sounds our airport is quiet in a way that we don't get in town. Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
I want to thank everyone for taking the time to compose some great responses. I will offer closure with the following: I'm a process driven guy. I want to know why a thing is being done before I commit to it. I am not one to jump on the bandwagon for the latest and greatest. That's one of the reasons I gravitated toward the Corvair--it was proven. To read that sometime in the late 90s and early 2000s cranks starting breaking in low and slow planes at a rate which required attention by those leading the Corvair effort, is disturbing, but I accept it. I also accept the 5th bearing solution even given the small sample to base a conclusion on. As for having already made up my mind to not use the bearing..., absolutely not. In fact, the inverse is probably more true. I tend to lean toward safest approach first. To be honest, I was hoping someone would make me feel ok about going the route that builders did for so many decades. Thanks for nothin' guys! lol. The purpose of this discussion was to vet the concept publicly from a skeptical point of view. My hope was that respondents would make great efforts to convince me--and so you have. Again, I am process driven, and I am a born skeptic. This method worked for me here, and I'm sure it will work again later, the next time I take issue with, status quo. William Wynne wants me to understand these engines, and now I am one step closer. Thank you all so much. I will build with the 5th bearing. You may have just saved my butt! [Laughing] -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439617#439617 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: "K5YAC" <hangar10(at)cox.net>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Here is a heavier wet blanket... I passed $12k a couple of years ago and I'm STILL not done. Don't care though... this stuff is just too much fun. Andy... do the 5th bearing. Contrary to what others may say, it doesn't require you to lose your shirt, figuratively or literally. Oh, howdy everybody! :) -------- Mark Chouinard All framed up... working on rigging. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439619#439619 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
This whole thread is why I love this list. A lot of people learn a lot of useful things by the experiences of others and we all get a better chance of surviving this thing called life. Keep it up guys, we're all doing good things here. Happy Landings -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439620#439620 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Frustrating day of study
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
I agree, this has been a good thread. Very illuminating. As for total cost..., don't care. Still to this day, I have no idea how much I spent building my boat. That wasn't the point then and it isn't now. Yes, I have to be very aware of keeping expenditures down to what I 'need' as I don't have a lot of money, but total cost in dollars after completing the build will pale in comparison to total the feeling of accomplishment. If I just wanted a plane, I'd buy another one. I want to 'create'. Thanks again everybody! -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439622#439622 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Mr Wynne, I think I may often be misunderstood as I attempt wrap my head around all of this. I explained my method of raising the issue on the original thread. I will do so again here. I was always inclined to go with the 5th bearing, but given the relatively short period of time that its been around as compared to the decades that the Corvair has been building a reputation as a good flight engine (when properly converted), I thought it best to approach the debate from the skeptic's point of view--there seems to be a story there that the raw data could help tell. Yes, I was maybe hoping that the debate would be a bit more evenly divided to make it at least a realistic option, but that it was not speaks volumes. In this way, through this discussion, thought was provoked, I have learned, opinions were developed, and the forum did exactly what is here to do. I could not be happier with the exchange or more grateful for the knowledge received. The BRS discussion was similar, but since I had never heard of one being installed on a Piet, a simpler probe was adequate. Please don't think me reckless or foolish. I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the information and passionate opinions that I seek. Yes, I was undecided, and yes, money is and will always be a concern, but in the end, I will typically make the appropriate choice. I just have to 'get there' intellectually, ya know? Even if I suspect something is a bad idea, I will still want to know all the reasons why--proper vetting--covering all bases. Additionally, verbalizing the facts and opinions herein may help others later as well as we add to the volume of researchable material. I am still not convinced that I have 5 or 6 years to save for the part in question as Gary suggests. I am actively searching for engines and got your DVD in the mail yesterday (Thanks!). When motivated, I can do a great deal very quickly, especially when I know what I'm doing. That is the 'know' that you and other are sharing with me now. Given my type of tact (or complete lack there of), you may despise me when we meet (especially after all of these questions). Someone told me of a possible CC in Mexico, MO this year. If that materializes, I look forward to shaking your hand and absorbing as much as you are willing to share. You and many others. Just wait until we get to the 'controls' questions later. [Rolling Eyes] Be patient with me gentlemen. I do like it here. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439631#439631 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
You cant really change the cost of planes by more than 25% or 35% even by extreme scrounging and plans building. There is no way to drop the cost by 75%, stuff just costs money at some point. Here is what you do control: What you get out of building and flying. Picture two guys, both spend 4 years, and 2,000 hours building a plane, and 50 hours aloft and 200 studying to get a LSA rating. Its five years into it. If guy A was a super scrounger, bought everything used and spent only $9000 vs guy B who spent $24K for the same plane, buying an overhauled engine and getting all his parts from Aircraft Spruce instead of the flymart, Which builder got the better value? Who won? The correct answer: The guy who actually mastered each skill, learned the whys of every step, didnt just do every task to minimums, but aimed to master it. The guy who sought to know every piece and part of his plane and its correct care, feeding and operation. He aimed higher, did more. He has been changed by the experience, the guy who just did the minimums only accomplished the task, but it wasnt transformative. Real value isnt based just on what it cost, it is far more affected by the other side of the equationwhat did you get out of it? On this point, the majority of builders cheat themselves. -ww Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439632#439632 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Andy, I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change, your never going to make it in aircraft building. Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the information and passionate opinions that I seek." Is pretty insulting to say the least. I am not here to have people "ferret out" things. I am here to share what I know. The very concept that you honestly think that knowing little or nothing about planes, you can spark an internet discussion between people you have never met, and then on the basis or reading a few hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluate the mechanical integrity, the operational history, the builder issues and details of each option. That my friend, is a total joke. In 25 years I have personally known 500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe 180 of them working on a plans built design that was their first plane. They had a common characteristic: They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders of the same design, and followed their lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen these people and evaluate their integrity, because they didn't have the expertise to do so. They just looked at their success, and used it as a pattern. They just correctly assumed that they would learn why these successful builders did what they did along the way. They didn't blindly follow anyone, but they didn't question peoples decisions on subjects they really didn't know anything about yet. I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 people who told me that they were absolutely personally committed to successfully building their plane, and all of these people failed. They also had a common characteristic: They thought just like you. My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter what they say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extra money and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to make the "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. Good luck with that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439633#439633 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Jack's new Piet
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Congratulations Jack on a beautiful bird! Absolutely gorgeous work!! I don't have much to add as you start chasing high temps, except this short list: 1. Could it still be tight? 10 hrs of ground running isn't necessarily a lot on a Ford. How tight is the prop after she's run for a while. 2. A slight pressure relief valve in the rad cap can help keep temps down a few degrees, but not the difference between boiling over and cool. (cant' remember exactly, 2-3lbs maybe?) 3. Timing is right? 4. I didn't notice but be sure you have a steam relief tube from the "front" of the head back to the rad. This can lead to pockets of steam coming up into the system and shooting out the cap every few minutes. 5. I assume the gauge is correct since she was steamin' 6. Water can run a bit cooler than coolant 7. Is there a thermostat? Confirm it works in boiling water I'm sure I'm missing some things, but that's what I remember from when I was working on my Ford. Good luck, send videos of flying days!! Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Andy, I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change, your never going to make it in aircraft building. Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the information and passionate opinions that I seek." Is pretty insulting to say the least. As man who writes as passionately as you do, I find this comment incredible. All the same, I apologize. I am not here to have people "ferret out" things. I am here to share what I know. The very concept that you honestly think that knowing little or nothing about planes, you can spark an internet discussion between people you have never met, and then on the basis or reading a few hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluate the mechanical integrity, the operational history, the builder issues and details of each option. That my friend, is a total joke. Yet after reading a few hundred of my words, you have made an assessment of my "mechanical integrity", my "operational history" and decided that public ridicule and embarrassment was the direction to take. You've decided that I am ignorance and declared me unfit with no hope of success. Moreover, you've done it in front of others who obviously admire you, who may have better understood my cultural and education bias and chosen to help me as they could.In 25 years I have personally known 500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe 180 of them working on a plans built design that was their first plane. They had a common characteristic: They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders of the same design, and followed their lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen these people and evaluate their integrity, because they didn't have the expertise to do so. They just looked at their success, and used it as a pattern. That is vetting sir. They just correctly assumed that they would learn why these successful builders did what they did along the way. Such an assumption is also a form of vetting. They didn't blindly follow anyone, but they didn't question peoples decisions on subjects they really didn't know anything about yet. How else do we understand a person decision unless we question why it was made--explore the contributing factors?. This is a logical approach. To not do so IS blindly following. Your statement is unclear! at best --contradictory at worst. I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 people who told me that they were absolutely personally committed to successfully building their plane, and all of these people failed. Failed to do what sir? Fly a plane they completed? I recently met a man in his eighties who had just completed the plane he knew he would never fly. Did he fail? What of those builders with a 20 year old half built aircraft in their garage which reminds them of all the great nights working with their father? Having enjoyed and learned from what they accomplished, did they too fail by your standards? They also had a common characteristic: They thought just like you. Again, a few hundred words, and you know how I think? Presumptuous. My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter what they say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extra money and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to make the "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. It was not my intention to start an argument. I appologize again Mr. Wynne. Good luck with that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww. I am truly sorry for any offense. It was my desire to spend many years here as I worked through and enjoyed my build. Obviously, I will find a different engine platform to build, as you clearly have no patience for my kind. I guess the money I've spent with your company thus far was wasted. I fear that I will also have to become a mere lurker here on the forums, trying to absorb what I can through passive means. Perhaps a few will help me through PMs. You, the leading expert on Corvairs, an authority on Pietenpols, and an ambassador in the homebuilding world have read a couple hundred of my words and passed judgment. I have been weighed, measured, and found wanting..., by you. Where a rational man recognizing his status in this community would have sent me private message to coach me on my approach if he objected, you chose public shaming and humiliation. I find your attitude to be unbecoming a man positioned to influence so many. Mentorship does not seem to suit you on this day. I consider the matter closed. Best to you and yours. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439635#439635 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Andy, Let me keep it simple and ask you two questions. In the 29 days since you joined the forum, other than posting 34 times, have you- 1. Ordered any materials to build something? 2. Built any portion of the aircraft? This is a great forum to ask questions, discuss construction methods, etc. It is not a great place to throw out ideas like putting $5,000 BRS systems in an airplane costing $15,000. You asked about it, and that is fine. But have you asked real meaningful construction questions like spruce vs fir, T88 vs another epoxy, or some question that leads others to believe building a Pietenpol is more than a mere mental exercise. Just get out there and build. Posting does not build your airplane. Building does. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439640#439640 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New Piet. Builder!
From: "tonyp51qa" <tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Hello everyone in the Pietenpol world. This is Tony and I live in northern Alabama. I received my plans from Andrew on Monday. And I just got my Vertical Stabilizer and Rudder from Aircraft Spruce today.Let the FUN begin!!! Tony tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com -------- Tony Crawford Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439641#439641 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Hey Terry, what would be involved in making my Piet a side by side two seater, with nose gear? Ducking and running! Terry is great for prodding you back into the shop. Due to his tirades about my typing and not working, I try to get something, even a little thing done, every day. stay thick skinned and keep building and asking questions. BTW Today I sanded various places go get a really good tight fit. This is where I had to reglue (Epoxy resin really) old joints and glue new wood in on the Horizontal Stab restoration. I will be putting a new "rear horizontal tail spar" on this weekend. I also am going to get some wood tomorrow for the tail "ribs" and install them. Once this is done I can patch my ailerons where I had to take the horns out, fix and weld on one, prime and paint them both and reinstall, then I will cover the Horizontal Stab. I might even get close to painting the ailerons and horizontal and vertical Stabs this weekend, but it looks like 3+ inches of rain Friday and Saturday.Latex is not that picky about humidity, So a reasonably dry Sunday may do. Then on to the next small project. (ARROW storage and display, almost finished.) Now go cut some wood, or buy an engine block, or start making metal parts. Blue Skies, Steve D On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:45 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> > > Andy, > > Let me keep it simple and ask you two questions. In the 29 days since you > joined the forum, other than posting 34 times, have you- > > 1. Ordered any materials to build something? > 2. Built any portion of the aircraft? > > This is a great forum to ask questions, discuss construction methods, etc. > It is not a great place to throw out ideas like putting $5,000 BRS systems > in an airplane costing $15,000. You asked about it, and that is fine. But > have you asked real meaningful construction questions like spruce vs fir, > T88 vs another epoxy, or some question that leads others to believe > building a Pietenpol is more than a mere mental exercise. > > Just get out there and build. Posting does not build your airplane. > Building does. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439640#439640 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Subject: Re: New Piet. Builder!
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
tony, First free advice. Go touch the project at least once every day. Do some thing If at all possible. Even if it is a tiny thing. Blue Skies, Steve D On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:14 PM, tonyp51qa wrote: > > Hello everyone in the Pietenpol world. This is Tony and I live in northern > Alabama. I received my plans from Andrew on Monday. And I just got my > Vertical Stabilizer and Rudder from Aircraft Spruce today.Let the FUN > begin!!! > > Tony > > tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com > > -------- > Tony Crawford > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439641#439641 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Piet. Builder!
From: glenschweizer(at)yahoo.com
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Hey Tony Welcome! Hopefully, you've visited this forum before and realize that it's normally not as contentious as this afternoon. There are decades of experience represented here. Wishing you a great build! Glen Aerial in progress(fuse off bench tail feathers to be glued this weekend) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:14 PM, "tonyp51qa" wrote: > > > Hello everyone in the Pietenpol world. This is Tony and I live in northern Alabama. I received my plans from Andrew on Monday. And I just got my Vertical Stabilizer and Rudder from Aircraft Spruce today.Let the FUN begin!!! > > Tony > > tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com > > -------- > Tony Crawford > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439641#439641 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: glenschweizer(at)yahoo.com
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Three five gallon buckets of sawdust so far! Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Steven Dortch wro te: > > Hey Terry, what would be involved in making my Piet a side by side two sea ter, with nose gear? > > Ducking and running! > > Terry is great for prodding you back into the shop. Due to his tirades abo ut my typing and not working, I try to get something, even a little thing do ne, every day. stay thick skinned and keep building and asking questions. > > BTW Today I sanded various places go get a really good tight fit. This is w here I had to reglue (Epoxy resin really) old joints and glue new wood in on the Horizontal Stab restoration. I will be putting a new "rear horizontal t ail spar" on this weekend. I also am going to get some wood tomorrow for the tail "ribs" and install them. Once this is done I can patch my ailerons wh ere I had to take the horns out, fix and weld on one, prime and paint them b oth and reinstall, then I will cover the Horizontal Stab. I might even get c lose to painting the ailerons and horizontal and vertical Stabs this weeken d, but it looks like 3+ inches of rain Friday and Saturday.Latex is not that picky about humidity, So a reasonably dry Sunday may do. Then on to the nex t small project. (ARROW storage and display, almost finished.) > > Now go cut some wood, or buy an engine block, or start making metal parts. > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:45 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: tmail.com> >> >> Andy, >> >> Let me keep it simple and ask you two questions. In the 29 days since you joined the forum, other than posting 34 times, have you- >> >> 1. Ordered any materials to build something? >> 2. Built any portion of the aircraft? >> >> This is a great forum to ask questions, discuss construction methods, etc . It is not a great place to throw out ideas like putting $5,000 BRS systems in an airplane costing $15,000. You asked about it, and that is fine. But h ave you asked real meaningful construction questions like spruce vs fir, T88 vs another epoxy, or some question that leads others to believe building a P ietenpol is more than a mere mental exercise. >> >> Just get out there and build. Posting does not build your airplane. Build ing does. >> >> -------- >> Semper Fi, >> >> Terry Hand >> Athens, GA >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439640#439640 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> enpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet enpol-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== > > > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jack <fastnaught(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Jack's new Piet
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Douwe, Thanks for the input. Several things you include I haven't checked yet. Another Ford Pieter has suggested about 20 hours to break in. His took about 18 before it settled down. Mine seems pretty loose but maybe not enough. Yo u thoughts? Jack Sent from my iPad > On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:11 PM, Douwe Blumberg w rote: > > Congratulations Jack on a beautiful bird! Absolutely gorgeous work!! > > I don=99t have much to add as you start chasing high temps, except t his short list: > > 1. Could it still be tight? 10 hrs of ground running isn=99t necessarily a lot on a Ford. How tight is the prop after she=99s run for a while. > 2. A slight pressure relief valve in the rad cap can help keep temps down a few degrees, but not the difference between boiling over and cool. ( cant=99 remember exactly, 2-3lbs maybe?) > 3. Timing is right? > 4. I didn=99t notice but be sure you have a steam relief tube f rom the =9Cfront=9D of the head back to the rad. This can lead t o pockets of steam coming up into the system and shooting out the cap every f ew minutes. > 5. I assume the gauge is correct since she was steamin=99 > 6. Water can run a bit cooler than coolant > 7. Is there a thermostat? Confirm it works in boiling water > > I=99m sure I=99m missing some things, but that=99s what I remember from when I was working on my Ford. > > Good luck, send videos of flying days!! > > Douwe > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: New Piet. Builder!
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Happy days!!! Sent from my iPad > On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:14 PM, tonyp51qa wrote: > > > Hello everyone in the Pietenpol world. This is Tony and I live in northern Alabama. I received my plans from Andrew on Monday. And I just got my Vertical Stabilizer and Rudder from Aircraft Spruce today.Let the FUN begin!!! > > Tony > > tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com > > -------- > Tony Crawford > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439641#439641 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Bob Parks Cub and Pete Bowers Pietenpol in 1969...
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Hello good Piet-Ple, A good friend of mine, Bob Parks recently sent me a couple photos I thought folks might enjoy on this site...... Bob is an amazing aviation artist ( http://www.parkzart.com/ ) (some of his paintings are in the Smithsonian's collection), worked at Boeing for 48 years (I worked with him for the last several of his career), learned to fly Stearmans in WWII, flew airshows as the "flying farmer" routine, and lots more....... (He has a new book out as well: http://www.amazon.com/From-Crystal-High-Speed-Jets/dp/1503105679 ) The Pietenpol in the photos was owned by Pete Bowers who was an amazing aviation historian. Pete had over 200,000 aviation photos in his collection when he passed a few years ago. That photo collection is now part of the Archives at the Museum of Flight in Seattle. Enjoy some simple and basic flying "as shown how to do it right" by two wonderful gentlemen.....!!!! -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439650#439650 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/1969_pietenpol_2_140.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/1969_pietenpol_1_593.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jack <fastnaught(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Andy, Please don't give up. "There are no stupid questions"...you know the rest. I hope we are all here to help each other, whatever our position and to not so easily take offense. Hopefully something that is said positively could inspire others to start to build or continue to build. None of us is too old to learn, nor too experienced to not pick up something from each other. I just flew my plane 2 days ago for the first time. I have a fairly extensive history in aviation but the thrill of that flight ranks up there with my first solo; it was awesome! My hope is that whatever has been said will not deter you from continuing on your journey to hopefully have that same experience. It truly is worth it. I am happy to help in any way that I can, for so many have helped me along my journey. Especially when I thought I was asking the stupid questions. Hang in there, Jack Sent from my iPad > On Mar 19, 2015, at 7:53 PM, Andy Garrett wrote: > > > Andy, > > > > I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change, your never going to make it in aircraft building. > > > > Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the information and passionate opinions that I seek." > > Is pretty insulting to say the least. As man who writes as passionately as you do, I find this comment incredible. All the same, I apologize. I am not here to have people "ferret out" things. I am here to share what I know. The very concept that you honestly think that knowing little or nothing about planes, you can spark an internet discussion between people you have never met, and then on the basis or reading a few hundred words, suddenly you are qualified to evaluate the mechanical integrity, the operational history, the builder issues and details of each option. That my friend, is a total joke. Yet after reading a few hundred of my words, you have made an assessment of my "mechanical integrity", my "operational history" and decided that public ridicule and embarrassment was the direction to take. You've decided that I am ignorance and declared me unfit with no hope of success. Moreover, you've done it in front of others who obviously admire you, who may have better under! > stood my cultural and education bias and chosen to help me as they could.In 25 years I have personally known 500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe 180 of them working on a plans built design that was their first plane. They had a common characteristic: They all found 2 or 3 successfully builders of the same design, and followed their lead. They didn't 'vet' or screen these people and evaluate their integrity, because they didn't have the expertise to do so. They just looked at their success, and used it as a pattern. That is vetting sir. They just correctly assumed that they would learn why these successful builders did what they did along the way. Such an assumption is also a form of vetting. They didn't blindly follow anyone, but they didn't question peoples decisions on subjects they really didn't know anything about yet. How else do we understand a person decision unless we question why it was made--explore the contributing factors?. This is a logical approach! > . To not do so IS blindly following. Your statement is unclear! > at best > > --contradictory at worst. I also have met, in person easily more than 10,000 people who told me that they were absolutely personally committed to successfully building their plane, and all of these people failed. Failed to do what sir? Fly a plane they completed? I recently met a man in his eighties who had just completed the plane he knew he would never fly. Did he fail? What of those builders with a 20 year old half built aircraft in their garage which reminds them of all the great nights working with their father? Having enjoyed and learned from what they accomplished, did they too fail by your standards? They also had a common characteristic: They thought just like you. Again, a few hundred words, and you know how I think? Presumptuous. > My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter what they say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extra money and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to make the "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" process work. It was not my intention to start an argument. I appologize again Mr. Wynne. Good luck with that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww. > > I am truly sorry for any offense. It was my desire to spend many years here as I worked through and enjoyed my build. Obviously, I will find a different engine platform to build, as you clearly have no patience for my kind. I guess the money I've spent with your company thus far was wasted. I fear that I will also have to become a mere lurker here on the forums, trying to absorb what I can through passive means. Perhaps a few will help me through PMs. > > You, the leading expert on Corvairs, an authority on Pietenpols, and an ambassador in the homebuilding world have read a couple hundred of my words and passed judgment. I have been weighed, measured, and found wanting..., by you. Where a rational man recognizing his status in this community would have sent me private message to coach me on my approach if he objected, you chose public shaming and humiliation. I find your attitude to be unbecoming a man positioned to influence so many. Mentorship does not seem to suit you on this day. > > I consider the matter closed. Best to you and yours. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439635#439635 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Piet. Builder!
From: "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Hi Tony, Welcome to the forum.. I am a relatively new builder also as I have only been building about 16 months. I hope you enjoy this quest as much as I have. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439652#439652 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Jack Fastnaught; Congratulations on finishing and flying you plane In an arena where at least 80% of the people who start do not make it to where you are, you are to be congratulated on the achievement. . You are very correct, there are no bad questions. but there are unproductive and poorly timed ways of asking questions, and questions just looking for conflict/entertainment/distraction, none of which serve the pursuit of learning. . Half of what I know about planes is from books, the other 50% is from listening to and asking questions of people who knew what I did not yet. I have learned from hundreds of aviators like this, Professors, mechanics, CFI's, FAA men, you name it. I like learning more than teaching, I share what I know because the things people taught me came with the unspoken agreement that when the time came, I would share it with the next person. . I started by spending five and a half years at Embry-Riddle. That is a lot of classroom hours. I went to each class with the reasonable assumption that if the professor had been teaching the subject for a decade or to, and had often worked in industry or served in the military before that, that he was plenty qualified. I only asked questions after reading the background work; when I asked a question, it wasn't seeking to find validation of an assumption I brought with me; and it was always asked with the understanding that there was a 99.99% chance it was something I wasn't getting yet and a .001% chance the instructor was wrong. The CFI I learned from got his instructor rating in 1952. I later found out that he had more than 500 students that went on to things like flying the B-2 and being a national aerobatic champion. When he told me to do things in the plane, I did them, knowing that I could ask later, but in all likelihood the answer would become obvious shortly. When I was yet to understand why he wanted something just so, I didn't go find his last season's students and other people at the airport and "ferret out" information, and I sure as shit didn't do that with the assumption that I with 2.0 hours in my log book had discovered something deficient about a guy with 14,000 hours of instruction Jack, I am sure you learned countless things in building your plane that you would wish to share with anyone new. Maybe you have been around planes a long time also, maybe seen some bad days at the airport that no one need repeat. I am sure, as most aviators are, you would want to share that also with anyone who is genuinely listening. Given your accomplishment, when you have some thing to say in response to a question, especially to a new guy, I think the new guy might just listen without the assumption you are wrong or lying. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439656#439656 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New Piet. Builder!
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Welcome Tony! Enjoy the build. Mike Groah Tulare California 414MV Sent from my iPad > On Mar 19, 2015, at 6:14 PM, "tonyp51qa" wrote: > > > Hello everyone in the Pietenpol world. This is Tony and I live in northern Alabama. I received my plans from Andrew on Monday. And I just got my Vertical Stabilizer and Rudder from Aircraft Spruce today.Let the FUN begin!!! > > Tony > > tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com > > -------- > Tony Crawford > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439641#439641 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 19, 2015
Subject: Longtime listener first time call back again(In new and
improved Technicolor)
From: benjamin piet <benjaminpiet528(at)gmail.com>
I am the artist firmly known as bluepilot5. My email was hacked (North Korea trying bring me down probably)So now I have a new email dedicated to piet stuff.Thank you all for your o-200 vs corsair answers it was helpful. I look forward to many years of picking your brains and someday people picking mine and joining you crazy open cockpit Piet drivers in sky someday. Beginning builder checklist: Wife=divorced Daughter=to college Dog=sleeps through hammering Beer= cold Beginning builder checklist complete Ready to build Ben ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: engine failure "thread"
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Hey William, I honestly didn't have any motivation other than curiosity. Jack's thread about his engine-out reminded me of what I'd heard at Brodhead, so I asked. Each time something big like this happens, it's been discussed to help educate us flyers/builders. I remember a great deal of discussion re Jacks, John Dilatush's Subaru engine-out, my disaster, Kevins issue, Chris' Mitsubishi issues, Jeff's Ford issues and many others I can't remember. So that was it my friend, just sparked a memory I hadn't thought of since July. No harm, no foul. I think a good "vair is a fine engine if done right and don't have any axes to grind with them in any way. I've seen lots of nice ones flying around. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2015
From: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
Well there you go. Andy, all of us here are as different as our airplanes a nd building approaches. Some scrounging and using materials that others wou ld never consider using. Others using nothing but the best, most proven, ce rtified techniques and products. Some looking to get into the air quickly. Others producing museum quality pieces of art. Some blessed with tact and d iplomacy, others not so much. But, all have something to offer whether it's years of experience, thinking outside the box, humor, friendship, or just stirring the pot a little! Chin up! Buy some wood. Start making pieces, hav ing fun, and continue to share your building expierence. Malcolm Morrison www.wienerdogaero.com http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/piet.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 7:53:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investm ent > Andy, I will save time and speak plainly: Unless you have a very serious approach change, your never going to make it in aircraft building. Your Comment: I just have certain 'devices' I use to ferret out the informa tion and passionate opinions that I seek." Is pretty insulting to say the least. As man who writes as passionately as you do, I find this comment incredible. All the same, I apologize. I am not here to have people "ferret out" things. I am here to share what I know. T he very concept that you honestly think that knowing little or nothing abou t planes, you can spark an internet discussion between people you have neve r met, and then on the basis or reading a few hundred words, suddenly you a re qualified to evaluate the mechanical integrity, the operational history, the builder issues and details of each option. That my friend, is a total joke. Yet after reading a few hundred of my words, you have made an assessm ent of my "mechanical integrity", my "operational history" and decided that public ridicule and embarrassment was the direction to take. You've decide d that I am ignorance and declared me unfit with no hope of success. Moreov er, you've done it in front of others who obviously admire you, who may hav e better under! stood my cultural and education bias and chosen to help me as they could.In 25 years I have personally known 500 people who have finished a homebuilt, maybe 180 of them working on a plans built design that was their first pla ne. They had a common characteristic: They all found 2 or 3 successfully bu ilders of the same design, and followed their lead. They didn't 'vet' or sc reen these people and evaluate their integrity, because they didn't have th e expertise to do so. They just looked at their success, and used it as a p attern. That is vetting sir. They just correctly assumed that they would le arn why these successful builders did what they did along the way. Such an assumption is also a form of vetting. They didn't blindly follow anyone, bu t they didn't question peoples decisions on subjects they really didn't kno w anything about yet. How else do we understand a person decision unless we question why it was made--explore the contributing factors?. This is a log ical approach! . To not do so IS blindly following. Your statement is unclear! at best --contradictory at worst. I also have met, in person easily more than 10,00 0 people who told me that they were absolutely personally committed to succ essfully building their plane, and all of these people failed. Failed to do what sir? Fly a plane they completed? I recently met a man in his eighties who had just completed the plane he knew he would never fly. Did he fail? What of those builders with a 20 year old half built aircraft in their gara ge which reminds them of all the great nights working with their father? Ha ving enjoyed and learned from what they accomplished, did they too fail by your standards? They also had a common characteristic: They thought just li ke you. Again, a few hundred words, and you know how I think? Presumptuous. My experience says that people very rarely change their approach, no matter what they say. Go ahead, take the next 10 years of your spare time and all your extra money and try to prove that you are the 1 in 10,000 guy who is going to make the "start arguments, and evaluate from no experience" proces s work. It was not my intention to start an argument. I appologize again Mr . Wynne. Good luck with that. Your life, your choice, your approach. -ww. I am truly sorry for any offense. It was my desire to spend many years here as I worked through and enjoyed my build. Obviously, I will find a differe nt engine platform to build, as you clearly have no patience for my kind. I guess the money I've spent with your company thus far was wasted. I fear t hat I will also have to become a mere lurker here on the forums, trying to absorb what I can through passive means. Perhaps a few will help me through PMs. You, the leading expert on Corvairs, an authority on Pietenpols, and an amb assador in the homebuilding world have read a couple hundred of my words an d passed judgment. I have been weighed, measured, and found wanting..., by you. Where a rational man recognizing his status in this community would ha ve sent me private message to coach me on my approach if he objected, you c hose public shaming and humiliation. I find your attitude to be unbecoming a man positioned to influence so many. Mentorship does not seem to suit you on this day. I consider the matter closed. Best to you and yours. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439635#439635 =========== =========== =========== =========== ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Terry, Yes I have ordered material for the build. My work space is set up and organized. No. I have not began construction. The weather here in Kansas is not yet what I need it to be for epoxies to develop their best bonds (my shop does not have climate control). In the mean time, I am taking the 'read the instruction manual cover to cover approach' before beginning, as advocated by anyone who ever wrote a construction manual. Such reading inspires questions. This forum exists for those questions. Sorry that I ask so many. I will try to meter my questions in such a way as not to offend any more members, since you have implied that 34 posts in 29 days is excessive. As for the BRS question: This product was made for experimental aircraft. There are $7000 aircraft flying with one installed. Asking such a question does not reflect my building priorities. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439669#439669 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: Scott Knowlton <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Andy, Welcome to the list and group of builders of a great simple airplane. I've been building for ten years and have thoroughly enjoyed the process. Some great concurrent activity I might suggest while you're waiting for the warmer "glue friendly" weather: Make yourself a rib jig - all materials you probably already have for this or could pick up at Lowe's or Home Depot aviation department Mock up a fuselage - this exercise helped me tremendously for all sorts of reasons. I got used to longerons and gussets and their amazing strength. I became comfortable with the cockpit size but also made decisions on my seat back angle and such. I had many mistakes out if the way before cutting in to expensive spruce. I turned it into a soapbox racer for my 11 year old (who moved out two years ago...time flies!). Make metal parts. Other than the gear brackets most of the parts can be made ahead of the wood build. If you have access to 4130 you can build your control system, tailwheel, wing fittings, engine mount brackets etc.... Get them painted and put them away for future use. You mentioned you're process driven and that is what you need to be to get this kind of project done. The best spirit to have when walking in to your shop is "what can I get done today". Something - even a ten minute task of filing the burrs out of a metal fitting - is progress toward completion. I wish you the best of luck, enjoy the build, and the great people you'll meet. Scott K Burlington On Straight axle, C85 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 20, 2015, at 11:25 AM, "Andy Garrett" wrote: > > > Terry, > > Yes I have ordered material for the build. My work space is set up and organized. > > No. I have not began construction. The weather here in Kansas is not yet what I need it to be for epoxies to develop their best bonds (my shop does not have climate control). > > In the mean time, I am taking the 'read the instruction manual cover to cover approach' before beginning, as advocated by anyone who ever wrote a construction manual. Such reading inspires questions. This forum exists for those questions. Sorry that I ask so many. I will try to meter my questions in such a way as not to offend any more members, since you have implied that 34 posts in 29 days is excessive. > > As for the BRS question: This product was made for experimental aircraft. There are $7000 aircraft flying with one installed. Asking such a question does not reflect my building priorities. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439669#439669 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: a great way to build a Pietenpol----have my Uncle Tony
by your side!!!!!
Date: Mar 20, 2015
For the newer builders to the list-----and please forgive me to the old han ds on the list who are by now, I'm sure, growing wearing of me talking abou t my Uncle Tony Bingelis and his homebuilder books. For guys like Andy and Tony or anybody who is just getting started building a Piet, 95% of your building questions can be answered in great clarity b y having a set of the Tony Bingelis Homebuilder books by your shop. (he's not really my U ncle by the way) Then Bingelis books are about $90 for the set of 4 right now but I swear th ey will save you HOURS of wasted time and TONS of money by being able to fi nd out how to do a certain part of your project correctly the FIRST time and knowi ng that it is airworthy and sound without worry or angst. "okay....how the heck do I make windshields??" The Bingelis books not o nly show you but show you like 3 ways to do it. "how do I go about making a cowling now??" Tony shows you like four or five different ways to make a cowling, a fuel tank, landing gears, you nam e it. He shows you how to time your mags, he shows you how to select AN hardware and how to properly install it. This guy is like having an expert sitting on your coffee table ready to ans wer all of your questions----and especially for a Piet since Tony talks a L OT about simple, good, fun, wood homebuilt airplanes. The SINGLE best resource I had while building my Pietenpol were the homebui lding books by Tony Bingelis. I hope the newer builders will ask for the se books for their birthday, Father's Day, or whatever day you wish because they are incredibl y good to have while you're building a Piet. You get straight answers, l ots and lots of options on how to do this or that and lots of great sketches and diagrams explainin g everything so that you can build with confidence and rest assured that yo ur work is airworthy and sound. Mike C. https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/homebuilders_corner/2251598800000__bingelis -set-of-4 [cid:image001.jpg(at)01D06303.712116B0] ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Subject: Re: a great way to build a Pietenpol----have my Uncle
Tony by your side!!!!!
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
I agree on Mike C on Uncle Tony. I caught myself reading past the subject I was looking for and reading for many pages. Wish It was well indexed. He has some dated ideas and/or ideas I don't agree with. IE You must have a static port on the side of the plane. To not do so is just sloppy and will allow instrument error into your altimeter and airspeed! After discussions, I decided that the neutral air behind the instrument panel was good enough and did not add complexity and weight. I am not that accurate of a pilot anyhow. I never did anything exactly the way he said, I felt I found a better way or my plane was not exactly the way he drew. Read him, it is like having an old airport bum who has built several planes with you. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] wrote: > > > For the newer builders to the list-----and please forgive me to the old > hands on the list who are by now, I'm sure, growing wearing of me talking > about my Uncle > > Tony Bingelis and his homebuilder books. > > > For guys like Andy and Tony or anybody who is just getting started > building a Piet, 95% of your building questions can be answered in great > clarity by having a set > > of the Tony Bingelis Homebuilder books by your shop. (he's not really my > Uncle by the way) > > > Then Bingelis books are about $90 for the set of 4 right now but I swear > they will save you HOURS of wasted time and TONS of money by being able to > find out > > how to do a certain part of your project correctly the FIRST time and > knowing that it is airworthy and sound without worry or angst. > > > "okay....how the heck do I make windshields??" The Bingelis books not > only show you but show you like 3 ways to do it. > > > "how do I go about making a cowling now??" Tony shows you like four or > five different ways to make a cowling, a fuel tank, landing gears, you > name it. He shows > > you how to time your mags, he shows you how to select AN hardware and how > to properly install it. > > > This guy is like having an expert sitting on your coffee table ready to > answer all of your questions----and especially for a Piet since Tony talks > a LOT about simple, good, > > fun, wood homebuilt airplanes. > > > The SINGLE best resource I had while building my Pietenpol were the > homebuilding books by Tony Bingelis. I hope the newer builders will ask > for these books for their > > birthday, Father's Day, or whatever day you wish because they are > incredibly good to have while you're building a Piet. You get straight > answers, lots and lots of options > > on how to do this or that and lots of great sketches and diagrams > explaining everything so that you can build with confidence and rest > assured that your work is airworthy > > and sound. > > > Mike C. > > > https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/homebuilders_corner/2251598800000__bingelis-set-of-4 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Subject: Re: a great way to build a Pietenpol----have my Uncle
Tony by your side!!!!!
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Oh yeah, next I would get the "1932 Flying and Glider manual" from EAA. It has a good article on building and plans, very tiny hard to read plans. but they give you a different look. I bought the whole set of manuals. Steve D On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Steven Dortch wrote: > I agree on Mike C on Uncle Tony. > I caught myself reading past the subject I was looking for and reading for > many pages. > > Wish It was well indexed. > > He has some dated ideas and/or ideas I don't agree with. > IE You must have a static port on the side of the plane. To not do so is > just sloppy and will allow instrument error into your altimeter and > airspeed! After discussions, I decided that the neutral air behind the > instrument panel was good enough and did not add complexity and weight. I > am not that accurate of a pilot anyhow. > I never did anything exactly the way he said, I felt I found a better way > or my plane was not exactly the way he drew. > > > Read him, it is like having an old airport bum who has built several > planes with you. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage > Partners, LLC] wrote: > >> >> >> For the newer builders to the list-----and please forgive me to the old >> hands on the list who are by now, I'm sure, growing wearing of me talking >> about my Uncle >> >> Tony Bingelis and his homebuilder books. >> >> >> >> For guys like Andy and Tony or anybody who is just getting started >> building a Piet, 95% of your building questions can be answered in great >> clarity by having a set >> >> of the Tony Bingelis Homebuilder books by your shop. (he's not really my >> Uncle by the way) >> >> >> >> Then Bingelis books are about $90 for the set of 4 right now but I swear >> they will save you HOURS of wasted time and TONS of money by being able to >> find out >> >> how to do a certain part of your project correctly the FIRST time and >> knowing that it is airworthy and sound without worry or angst. >> >> >> >> "okay....how the heck do I make windshields??" The Bingelis books not >> only show you but show you like 3 ways to do it. >> >> >> >> "how do I go about making a cowling now??" Tony shows you like four >> or five different ways to make a cowling, a fuel tank, landing gears, you >> name it. He shows >> >> you how to time your mags, he shows you how to select AN hardware and >> how to properly install it. >> >> >> >> This guy is like having an expert sitting on your coffee table ready to >> answer all of your questions----and especially for a Piet since Tony talks >> a LOT about simple, good, >> >> fun, wood homebuilt airplanes. >> >> >> >> The SINGLE best resource I had while building my Pietenpol were the >> homebuilding books by Tony Bingelis. I hope the newer builders will ask >> for these books for their >> >> birthday, Father's Day, or whatever day you wish because they are >> incredibly good to have while you're building a Piet. You get straight >> answers, lots and lots of options >> >> on how to do this or that and lots of great sketches and diagrams >> explaining everything so that you can build with confidence and rest >> assured that your work is airworthy >> >> and sound. >> >> >> >> Mike C. >> >> >> >> >> https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/homebuilders_corner/2251598800000__bingelis-set-of-4 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: a great way to build a Pietenpol----have my Uncle
Tony by your side!!!!!
From: Amsafetyc <amsafetyc(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
I was about to say the same, even a would be builder could benefit by readin g them first. Uncle Tony even suggests where to begin your build as to have t he greatest success in completion hint: it's not the wings The books save time and effort even if the exact situation you're facing isn 't in there it does contain work a rounds to help conquer builder snags. It's the same advice many gave me when I started building John Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 20, 2015, at 11:46 AM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners , LLC]" wrote: > > > For the newer builders to the list-----and please forgive me to the old ha nds on the list who are by now, I'm sure, growing wearing of me talking abou t my Uncle > Tony Bingelis and his homebuilder books. > > For guys like Andy and Tony or anybody who is just getting started buildin g a Piet, 95% of your building questions can be answered in great clarity b y having a set > of the Tony Bingelis Homebuilder books by your shop. (he's not really my U ncle by the way) > > Then Bingelis books are about $90 for the set of 4 right now but I swear t hey will save you HOURS of wasted time and TONS of money by being able to fi nd out > how to do a certain part of your project correctly the FIRST time and know ing that it is airworthy and sound without worry or angst. > > "okay....how the heck do I make windshields??" The Bingelis books not o nly show you but show you like 3 ways to do it. > > "how do I go about making a cowling now??" Tony shows you like four or five different ways to make a cowling, a fuel tank, landing gears, you nam e it. He shows > you how to time your mags, he shows you how to select AN hardware and how to properly install it. > > This guy is like having an expert sitting on your coffee table ready to an swer all of your questions----and especially for a Piet since Tony talks a L OT about simple, good, > fun, wood homebuilt airplanes. > > The SINGLE best resource I had while building my Pietenpol were the homebu ilding books by Tony Bingelis. I hope the newer builders will ask for the se books for their > birthday, Father's Day, or whatever day you wish because they are incredib ly good to have while you're building a Piet. You get straight answers, l ots and lots of options > on how to do this or that and lots of great sketches and diagrams explaini ng everything so that you can build with confidence and rest assured that yo ur work is airworthy > and sound. > > Mike C. > > https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/homebuilders_corner/2251598800000__bingeli s-set-of-4 > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: a great way to build a Pietenpol----have my Uncle
Tony by yo
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Thanks Mike! I will order today. :D -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439680#439680 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Thanks for the perspective Malcolm. I won't be discouraged. I'm still eager to get going. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439681#439681 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Finding your own balance on expense vs investment
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Thanks Scott. Some solid, actionable advice there. The rib jig sounds like a good project to start with. After making a call to the lumber wholesaler who let me hand-select all of the mahogany for my boat build (check on spruce and/or DF availability), I'll head to Lowes for a few materials. I still have some 1/4" Hydrotek marine ply laying around. I saw a spar construction method over on Westcoastpiet.com that I really liked. It was 1/4" marine ply between 3/8" strips of solid wood (spruce presumably) for an I-beam set up 1" thick at the top and bottom. I'm eager to start on those too. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439684#439684 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Hot Fords
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Hey Andy, Each Ford seems to be a unique individual. I followed the advice of some people who had actually flown their Fords successfully and they seemed to agree to run it on the ground for a long time, 20 hrs seems to ring a bell. Seems like a long time but they swore it wouldn't loosen up 'til then. I probably ran mine about 12-15 but never had any overheating issues, but then again she only flew around the pattern once before a bad landing forced a rebuild and I replaced the engine because I thought we were moving to the mountains. If you don't have a steam relief tube to the front of the head, it could easily fool one into thinking the engine was overheating. Also, make sure the water temp gauge bulb is not somewhere that it can be caught in a steam pocket so you are getting accurate readings. But if she's steaming steadily and the gauge is accurately reading high then something's definitely wrong. You have the same water pump as I did and it is a great set up as it's pushing hot water rather than sucking hot water through the system and it's at the bottom of the system. Just make sure it's pumping, and also make sure the pulley on the pump is sized correctly so the water isn't pumping so fast through the system that it can't cool enough. Too fast is bad, too slow is bad. Jeff Faith chased an overheating Ford issue all last year, so it can definitely be challenging. I certainly no expert, but if you keep eliminating things it should surrender eventually. Try tracking down Ken Perkins and ask his advice. He probably has the most Ford experience of anyone around these days. Dan H also flies a Ford but I don't think he's ever had any overheating issues. Good luck, Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Metal Fittings
From: "tonyp51qa" <tonyp51qa(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
Has anyone manufactured metal fittings and sold them for the Pietenpol? Is there any plans or supplemental plans out there for building the Aileron, vertical or horizontal stabilizer control horns with a solid piece of steel/aluminum? I don't have access to a TIG welder. Tony[/list] -------- Tony Crawford Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439695#439695 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: a great way to build a Pietenpol----have my Uncle
Tony by yo
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
On the way! -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439696#439696 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Thank You!
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 20, 2015
As I was logging off the list earlier today, I checked my email before heading to the hardware store for jig building material. It turned out that I had an invitation to come observe a completed, Corvair powered Piet just before covering. Naturally, I jumped at the chance! What I found was two great guys, happy to share their wisdom and experience with this airplane and the Piet community. I took measurements, and lots of photos. The builder and his son had come up with a lot of neat tricks which I hadn't seen in other examples--really cool stuff! The controls were awesome and the fuel tank was simply genius. They had incorporated several very elegant solutions to challenges I was already wrestling with in my mind. I learned more in an hour than I had in weeks of study. My host is a member here, but as he may wish to remain anonymous, I will simply say thanks to him one more time. If I am fortunate enough to get a future invitation, I will be prepared to do some rib stitching. heavy lifting, whatever is needed. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439698#439698 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Subject: Re: Metal Fittings
From: "Andre B. Charvet" <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
I made all my control horns with an inexpensive gas welder. I figured it as one more skill learned that would serve me the rest of my life. Ben tonyp51qa wrote: > >Has anyone manufactured metal fittings and sold them for the Pietenpol? Is there any plans or supplemental plans out there for building the Aileron, vertical or horizontal stabilizer control horns with a solid piece of steel/aluminum? I don't have access to a TIG welder. > >Tony[/list] > >-------- >Tony Crawford > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439695#439695 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Thank You!
From: "tools" <n0kkj(at)yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 21, 2015
THAT is the power of brodhead. The chance to probe the planes and minds of dozens all in one convenient location. Followed closely by corvair colleges and regional gatherings. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439701#439701 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Bingilis books
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Here's my $.02 I am confident I could not have built my plane without the knowledge I gained from the Bingilis series of books. I owned them for about fifteen years before I started building and they were already threadbare by that time from my reading and re-reading. They gave me a basic, fundamental understanding of how things worked and processes. Yes there are different ways to skin a cat and more modern ones, but the ones shown work and are good solid fundamentals. I also never would have finished, especially the rebuild without the encouragement and support I received from this group back then. Somehow it can be a more contentious/negative/nit-pickey group than it was, but it is still extremely helpful, just be careful of the advice you choose to follow. Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Speaking of getting started.....
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 21, 2015
If we were Sherpas at the base camp to mount Everest, and a new person came into camp with the stated plan to climb it, and all they talked about was the colors that they had picked for their tent and then complained about the cost of quality ropes, what would you tell them? Are you being a better ambassador to mountaineering by just being polite and welcoming, or is it a better idea to explain to the new person that a successful summit is made of long and careful preparation, learning and work, and it will cost money, and By the way, your best guidance is going to come from Sherpas who have lead climbers to the summit before. You would also explain that the 10% who make it to the top follow this not just because they want to summit, but also because they want to live. After the new guy is done telling everyone in the village, who are mostly tourists, all about his color coordination and objection to rope that cost more than $4/foot, you politely say that color doesn't matter, physical fitness and conditioning does, and although it was once done, no one climbs on $4/ft rope anymore, it is all done on $5/ft rope, that is why the book says use $5/ft rope. That once you are up on the mountain you will see strains put on the rope that you can not understand by looking at the price tag in the village, and he should just listen to you because you have been to the top, and you have also seen people killed by cheap equipment. It doesn't matter now anyway, because he is in terrible conditioning, and it will take several seasons to get in shape, and in the long run the cost of $1/ft on rope will be meaningless then. The reasonable new climber will understands this. He remembers that when he became fluent in a second language, became a working musician, and when he was in competitive sports, the common thread to find the reward, was long preparation, and following the guidance of a coach who had been there before and had long demonstrated the path to many others. He understands that the goal in each of these was to "Become" something greater than he was, a word that means there was a transformation of how he felt about himself. He understands that his actual goal is to "become" a skilled climber, and then use these skills to summit Everest. Summiting is not the primary goal, and people who don't want to put the work into the training and transition to being a climber, people who just want the trophy as cheap as possible, will never make it. The Unreasonable new arrival doesn't like to hear anything about this. He comes to the village unable to differentiate between bureaucratic rules and accepted and proven wisdom of experience. He can't tell the difference between garbage like cliques, pecking order and blind dues paying, and the very different situation of working for something for a long time and later understanding it earned you the respect of people who had done the same. Unable to differentiate these things, he rejects it all, and honestly believes it is all negotiable and interchangeable. He does not understand that he has left suburbia, the office cubicle, and world where repeated broadcast babble is substituted for understanding. He is in a new arena, and he is just getting acquainted with the idea that his home currency isn't very valuable here. The reasonable man gets to work on the task of 3,000 hours or so to transform himself into a climber. The progress of each week is self-rewarding, because the goal is the transformation, not what one might do with the skills once he has them. The unreasonable man, focused on possession of the trophy, does not start training, he starts bargaining. He wants to know if there is some way to turn 3,000 hr into 1,500 hr. He gets attached to any story that seems to be about cleverly reducing the 'cost' of getting to the top. He likes fir ladders instead of spruce ones, and latex tents instead of doped ones. While these ideas all have merit when selectively applied by experienced climbers, the unreasonable man's attraction is purely about short cutting the system. He doesn't understand that having Google translate on his I-phone isn't the same as being able to speak a few words with the Nepalese natives. Completely missing the point that it costs what it cost to climb the mountain, and the real side of the equation you control is if you become a climber or not, and being an understood and respected climber is about what you know and can do, and not where you have bought tickets to, the unreasonable man is stuck on the price of things, particularly that $5/ft rope. Because he can't tell the difference between random rules and wisdom, and because he has never operated in an office with the death penalty for small mistakes on the job, he comes up with the brilliant idea of taking a poll of the tourists in the village to find out if the Sherpas are full of shit. If 51% of the tourists say $4/ft rope is great, then this confirms what he 'knew' that people who want you to use $5/ft rope are just salesmen (even though they don't sell rope). He believes in polls because they are surveys fill his internet world and are the basis of his illusion that corporations/neighbors/ politicians care what he thinks. He knows he matters, that is why he votes on TV singing shows. To his surprise, the first people who speak up after the poll are not tourists, but climbers who have been to the top. They all tell him to use $5/ft rope. Some of them even have tales of almost falling when the previous standard was $4/ft rope. There are some people in training that say they are still thinking about climbing slowly and using $4/ft rope, but the unreasonable man, who is really just seeking any affirmation of his belief that he can save money and get the same goal, misses the point that none of the people who are in favor of $4/ft rope have been to the top, and that the original climbers on $4/ft rope were using new rope, not rope reconditioned in Pakistan. The only people who were qualified to inspect ropes and treat them were 2 shops in the US, and that costs money. The unreasonable man concedes the $5/ft public debate for the worst reason: He is concerned what other people in the village think. Still, at heart, he really isn't convinced. He will revisit this exact same approach on every single aspect of preparation and training. Because most people are polite, he will not have others point out that he really isn't getting in better shape, nor is his real knowledge of climbing increasing. Over time the progress he makes will not yield satisfaction because he can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, which to him is getting to the top of the mountain. Because no one takes the time to say he has the wrong mindset, he ends up wasting 5 years living in the village, learning little, conducting the same type of poll over and over again. One day he gets fed up, declares that he would have been to the top long ago if he had been in a village of friendly Sherpas and supportive townspeople. It is all their fault. He puts up a notice on the bulletin board saying he is selling his gear, but no one wants it because it was all cheap stuff built around a $4/ft rope collection, assembled by a guy who wasn't really into the work. As he is carrying the gear to the dump outside the village on his way back to suburbia, he meets a new guy walking up the trail. He makes him a great bargain, and points out that the gear includes a well known book on climbing written by a Sherpa named W. Nguyen. Unreasonable guy has a very believable sales pitch saying the gear was great, but he didn't need it anymore because he had decided to go back to suburbia and drive around in a three wheeled RV. New guy is very excited, because just like the unreasonable guy, his goal is to be able to tell people he climbed the mountain, not become a climber. To his perspective, he just saved a bundle of cash, and he is appreciably closer to having a summit photo on his face book page. The deal is struck and the cash exchanged just outside the entrance to the dump. The new guy carries the gear into the village, and walks into the town square where he stands on a box and introduces himself, and in short order tells everyone what decorative color he is going to paint his tent. ---------------------------------------------------- If you have been on this list for a long time, you know that there have regularly been people who show up with a great flurry of interest, stay a month, and then fall away to oblivion. If there are ten a year, over ten years, then you have seen this 100 times. Now quick, name four people with flying airplanes that started that way......... It isn't just this list, or even airplane building. This is common to most list that involve building something that takes considerable effort, and particularly learning a lot of new skills. I have spent time reading on boat building sites and Diesel engine swap forums, they have the same issue, but those to subjects are hobbies, and aircraft building is my craft and calling. It is important to me that Homebuilding find better ways of binging new people in, not just as a spectator/ EAA member but as real, active builders with an effective plan for success, which I define as finishing a good, reliable plane and really learning skills, traditions and ethics of aviation. That is transformative in a persons life, most other experiences pale in comparison. . So, How do we get more people into a position where they have a fair chance at success in homebuilding? First, you have to be honest with them. You have to tell then that the odds are against them going in, so before they look at anything else about it, they should me most interested in one single thing: Understanding the different approaches between the 10% who make it and the 90% who don't. If they are focused on anything else, but have not even considered this, they are almost certainly in the 90%. Seriously, a new person who has spent a lot of time deciding what paint job he wants and is obsessing on the cost of parts he will not have to buy for several years, needs to be told that he is not in possession of the perspective common to the 10%. I am for trying to say it with more tact than I can muster, but I am against being so excessively polite and welcoming, out of a fear of alienating or discouraging the new arrival, to go so far as the message to the new arrival gets lost. This is for everyone to consider. People who have been all the way through the process can and should share what ever perspective they have. You are a Sherpa who has climbed this particular mountain, and you know it in ways that others do not. In reality the new builders don't divide into neat groups of reasonable and unreasonable. This division and the percentages actually exist inside each new builder, and I believe that you can appeal to the reasonable side of each builder by articulately explaining why he might want to invest the real effort in transforming is abilities and knowledge, and how merely finding a short cut to a finished plane is not synonymous with this. You will not reach all people, and some will take time, but after decades of hands on teach in writing, I still think it is worth the effort. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439704#439704 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com>
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Since a post in a public forum invites a response, I will oblige with more kindness than you have shown me, though your metaphors may be too clever for my comprehension. Having read through this prose twice, it seems that you are advocating that the homebuilding community adopt some method of exclusion--that you 'weed out' those you consider unworthy after showing some initial enthusiasm, and expressing a completed vision that they are working toward. It reminds me of Fight Club--Meatloaf standing on the porch of the Paper Street Soap Company awaiting admission to Project Mayhem as current members berate him hourly for days trying to see if he has the fortitude to stay. You of course, as the 'Corvair/Homebuilding Jesus' and your chosen 'disciples' would decide who is admitted and who is shunned, yes? As a history major, I can name a few dictators that thought that way. This is a hobby brother--EXPERIMENTAL aviation. That means that each of us is responsible for our own choices. You sir, are one man in a sea of men with vast experience in the arena, but your egocentricity is bordering on egomania. You are advocating that no new builder should be granted admission to your 'club' unless they meet with your approval or the approval of those that you agree can grant it. Worse, you are pontificating what each builder can call 'success'--a completed airplane built to the standards of one William Wynne--nothing less. You've had your head in the crank case to long brother. Your starting to drink your own Koolaid. Contrary to what your 'experience' and oft-cited degree from 'Embry Riddell' have taught you, this world does not revolve around you. 17 supportive emails and messages from list members over the past two days have made it clear that you are a man with personality issues that just must be 'tolerated' around here. Pity. I would have welcomed you as a friend, but you seem to only want 'followers' to pay homage. Personally, I have no use for you. I hope that I have not brought shame to the list. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439706#439706 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: benjamin piet <benjaminpiet528(at)gmail.com>
Enough Mr. Garrett! This a forum for people to share thoughts and questions on Pietenpol building not go on and on about someone hurting your feelings. I am a new guy too. Learn listen to those have been there, built and flew stop flapping your gums about how people are dictators because you studied history, you impressing no one and making those who are freely giving building advice to us green beans the idea that's not appreciated. Keep the pissing contests in another forum please I am trying learn. On Mar 21, 2015 1:21 PM, "Andy Garrett" wrote: > andy_garrett(at)live.com> > > Since a post in a public forum invites a response, I will oblige with more > kindness than you have shown me, though your metaphors may be too clever > for my comprehension. > > Having read through this prose twice, it seems that you are advocating > that the homebuilding community adopt some method of exclusion--that you > 'weed out' those you consider unworthy after showing some initial > enthusiasm, and expressing a completed vision that they are working toward. > It reminds me of Fight Club--Meatloaf standing on the porch of the Paper > Street Soap Company awaiting admission to Project Mayhem as current members > berate him hourly for days trying to see if he has the fortitude to stay. > You of course, as the 'Corvair/Homebuilding Jesus' and your chosen > 'disciples' would decide who is admitted and who is shunned, yes? > > As a history major, I can name a few dictators that thought that way. > > This is a hobby brother--EXPERIMENTAL aviation. That means that each of us > is responsible for our own choices. You sir, are one man in a sea of men > with vast experience in the arena, but your egocentricity is bordering on > egomania. You are advocating that no new builder should be granted > admission to your 'club' unless they meet with your approval or the > approval of those that you agree can grant it. Worse, you are pontificating > what each builder can call 'success'--a completed airplane built to the > standards of one William Wynne--nothing less. > > You've had your head in the crank case to long brother. Your starting to > drink your own Koolaid. Contrary to what your 'experience' and oft-cited > degree from 'Embry Riddell' have taught you, this world does not revolve > around you. 17 supportive emails and messages from list members over the > past two days have made it clear that you are a man with personality issues > that just must be 'tolerated' around here. Pity. I would have welcomed you > as a friend, but you seem to only want 'followers' to pay homage. > Personally, I have no use for you. > > > I hope that I have not brought shame to the list. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439706#439706 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2015
From: "THOMAS.233327" <thomas.233327(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
Hay! let's all just cool down a bit! This thread is full of animosity, hurt feelings, threats and counter-threats. Andy, please just ask your questions straight out (what are your opinions about a balistic parachute) and group, just be polite, OK? These attacks are getting real old real fast! WW has a LOT of experience with airplanes and how they work with Corvair engines. He has his opinions about the subject. He has tried and tested a whole lot of different was of doing things with the Corvair engine. A lot of people have built airplane engines per his formula. It works. If you don't want to do it his way, fine. Don't ! But don't be insulting in the tone of your posts. You'll get a lot of help from this list. Keep going the way you have been and people will be dropping off the list and what they have learned will cease to be available. Play nice, kids! Tom Hale Builder of "tin" airplanes (Hummel Bird, Sonex), getting quite a lot of ideas and help, and good times from this list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 1:18:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of getting started..... Since a post in a public forum invites a response, I will oblige with more kindness than you have shown me, though your metaphors may be too clever for my comprehension. Having read through this prose twice, it seems that you are advocating that the homebuilding community adopt some method of exclusion--that you 'weed out' those you consider unworthy after showing some initial enthusiasm, and expressing a completed vision that they are working toward. It reminds me of Fight Club--Meatloaf standing on the porch of the Paper Street Soap Company awaiting admission to Project Mayhem as current members berate him hourly for days trying to see if he has the fortitude to stay. You of course, as the 'Corvair/Homebuilding Jesus' and your chosen 'disciples' would decide who is admitted and who is shunned, yes? As a history major, I can name a few dictators that thought that way. This is a hobby brother--EXPERIMENTAL aviation. That means that each of us is responsible for our own choices. You sir, are one man in a sea of men with vast experience in the arena, but your egocentricity is bordering on egomania. You are advocating that no new builder should be granted admission to your 'club' unless they meet with your approval or the approval of those that you agree can grant it. Worse, you are pontificating what each builder can call 'success'--a completed airplane built to the standards of one William Wynne--nothing less. You've had your head in the crank case to long brother. Your starting to drink your own Koolaid. Contrary to what your 'experience' and oft-cited degree from 'Embry Riddell' have taught you, this world does not revolve around you. 17 supportive emails and messages from list members over the past two days have made it clear that you are a man with personality issues that just must be 'tolerated' around here. Pity. I would have welcomed you as a friend, but you seem to only want 'followers' to pay homage. Personally, I have no use for you. I hope that I have not brought shame to the list. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439706#439706 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 21, 2015
> You've had your head in the crank case to long brother. Your starting to drink your own Koolaid. Contrary to what your 'experience' and oft-cited degree from 'Embry Riddell' have taught you, this world does not revolve around you. 17 supportive emails and messages from list members over the past two days have made it clear that you are a man with personality issues that just must be 'tolerated' around here. Pity. I would have welcomed you as a friend, but you seem to only want 'followers' to pay homage. Personally, I have no use for you. > > > I hope that I have not brought shame to the list. Andy, The shame lies more with yourself than the forum. You may not appreciate William's perception of you or your ideas, but I am not remembering him lowering himself and telling you "the world does not revolve around you" and that "you are a man with personality issues." You may disagree with William, and he may disagree with you, but read some of the links and you may see where his "personality issues" come from- http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/20/effective-risk-management-2898-words/ http://flycorvair.net/2012/06/25/if-only-someone-had-told-him/ http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-the-wrong-place/ http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-factor-1-judgement/ I am not defending, William. He does not need my help. He does just fine all by himself. What I am telling you is that you need to step back and think about what YOU write. The best revenge is to prove someone wrong. If you disagree with his perception of you then why not get to building, and prove him wrong? But telling someone he drinks is own Kool-aid is not a powerful response. It more sounds like something my teenage daughter might say. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439709#439709 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: Gardiner Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Right on Terry. I wonder what he will be saying 5 years from now if he ever gets a plane built. It wl probably be our fault, Gardiner Sent from my iPad > On Mar 21, 2015, at 5:41 PM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > > > >> You've had your head in the crank case to long brother. Your starting to drink your own Koolaid. Contrary to what your 'experience' and oft-cited degree from 'Embry Riddell' have taught you, this world does not revolve around you. 17 supportive emails and messages from list members over the past two days have made it clear that you are a man with personality issues that just must be 'tolerated' around here. Pity. I would have welcomed you as a friend, but you seem to only want 'followers' to pay homage. Personally, I have no use for you. >> >> >> I hope that I have not brought shame to the list. > > > Andy, > > The shame lies more with yourself than the forum. You may not appreciate William's perception of you or your ideas, but I am not remembering him lowering himself and telling you "the world does not revolve around you" and that "you are a man with personality issues." > > You may disagree with William, and he may disagree with you, but read some of the links and you may see where his "personality issues" come from- > > http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/20/effective-risk-management-2898-words/ > > http://flycorvair.net/2012/06/25/if-only-someone-had-told-him/ > > http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-the-wrong-place/ > > http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-factor-1-judgement/ > > I am not defending, William. He does not need my help. He does just fine all by himself. > > What I am telling you is that you need to step back and think about what YOU write. The best revenge is to prove someone wrong. If you disagree with his perception of you then why not get to building, and prove him wrong? But telling someone he drinks is own Kool-aid is not a powerful response. It more sounds like something my teenage daughter might say. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439709#439709 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2015
From: George Abernathy <avionixoz(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
Amen! I like the list because it is a group of decent people.=C2- Lets follow the if you can't say something nice say nothing idea.=C2- G From: THOMAS.233327 <thomas.233327(at)comcast.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of getting started..... Hay! =C2-let's all just cool down a bit! =C2-This thread is full of ani mosity, hurt feelings, threats and counter-threats. Andy, please just ask y our questions straight out (what are your opinions about a balistic parachu te) and group, just be polite, OK? =C2-These attacks are getting real old real fast! =C2-WW has a LOT of experience with airplanes and how they wo rk with Corvair engines. =C2-He has his opinions about the subject. =C2 -He has tried and tested a whole lot of different was of doing things wit h the Corvair engine. =C2-A lot of people have built airplane engines per his formula. =C2-It works. =C2-If you don't want to do it his way, fin e. =C2-Don't ! =C2-But don't be insulting in the tone of your posts. Yo u'll get a lot of help from this list. =C2-Keep going the way you have be en and people will be dropping off the list and what they have learned will cease to be available.Play nice, kids!Tom HaleBuilder of "tin" airplanes ( Hummel Bird, Sonex), getting quite a lot of ideas and help, and good times from this list. From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett(at)live.com> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 1:18:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Speaking of getting started..... > Since a post in a public forum invites a response, I will oblige with more kindness than you have shown me, though your metaphors may be too clever fo r my comprehension. Having read through this prose twice, it seems that you are advocating that the homebuilding community adopt some method of exclusion--that you 'weed out' those you consider unworthy after showing some initial enthusiasm, and expressing a completed vision that they are working toward. It reminds me of Fight Club--Meatloaf standing on the porch of the Paper Street Soap Comp any awaiting admission to Project Mayhem as current members berate him hour ly for days trying to see if he has the fortitude to stay. You of course, a s the 'Corvair/Homebuilding Jesus' and your chosen 'disciples' would decide who is admitted and who is shunned, yes? As a history major, I can name a few dictators that thought that way. This is a hobby brother--EXPERIMENTAL aviation. That means that each of us is responsible for our own choices. You sir, are one man in a sea of men wi th vast experience in the arena, but your egocentricity is bordering on ego mania. You are advocating that no new builder should be granted admission t o your 'club' unless they meet with your approval or the approval of those that you agree can grant it. Worse, you are pontificating what each builder can call 'success'--a completed airplane built to the standards of one Wil liam Wynne--nothing less. You've had your head in the crank case to long brother. Your starting to dr ink your own Koolaid. Contrary to what your 'experience' and oft-cited degr ee from 'Embry Riddell' have taught you, this world does not revolve around you. 17 supportive emails and messages from list members over the past two days have made it clear that you are a man with personality issues that ju st must be 'tolerated' around here. Pity. I would have welcomed you as a fr iend, but you seem to only want 'followers' to pay homage. Personally, I ha ve no use for you. I hope that I have not brought shame to the list. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439706#439706 =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2--Matt Dralle, List ========= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: John Woods <johnwoods(at)westnet.com.au>
Andy, I think you have to take a bit of time to digest what William has written. When you do, you may see that what he has written is very true, not only for experimental aviation but for everything in life. By the way, it's great to get 17 supportive emails, but don't become abusive to the one email that brings you back to reality. Williams story obviously hit a nerve, as you can relate to what he has said. It's only a story after all........all be it one with a lot of truth to it. The question for you is, "Does it apply to me?" John > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
All is forgiven when a plane flies. Blue Skies, Steve D. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:10 PM, John Woods wrote: > Andy, > > I think you have to take a bit of time to digest what William has written. > > When you do, you may see that what he has written is very true, not only > for experimental aviation but for everything in life. > > By the way, it's great to get 17 supportive emails, but don't become > abusive to the one email that brings you back to reality. > > Williams story obviously hit a nerve, as you can relate to what he has > said. > > It's only a story after all........all be it one with a lot of truth to it. > > The question for you is, "Does it apply to me?" > > John > > >> * > > > * > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
OK Girls, I am going to check out for a couple of days until everyone's panties are not wadded up. I got about 1/2 of what I thought I would get done done. so I am going to hit it hard on the Sabbath. See you Monday, or Tuesday or so. Everyone usually mellows out after a tiff. Blue Skies. Steve Hope to finish My horizontal stab tomorrow and cover it Monday. then on to painting them. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Steven Dortch wrote: > All is forgiven when a plane flies. > > Blue Skies, > Steve D. > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:10 PM, John Woods > wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> I think you have to take a bit of time to digest what William has written. >> >> When you do, you may see that what he has written is very true, not only >> for experimental aviation but for everything in life. >> >> By the way, it's great to get 17 supportive emails, but don't become >> abusive to the one email that brings you back to reality. >> >> Williams story obviously hit a nerve, as you can relate to what he has >> said. >> >> It's only a story after all........all be it one with a lot of truth to >> it. >> >> The question for you is, "Does it apply to me?" >> >> John >> >> >>> * >> >> >> * >> >> > > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 21, 2015
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
BTW Kari-ann, I mean no disrespect to the ladies, just trying to jolt the boys back to civility. Heck you never say anything during our playground arguments. Blue Skies, Steve D On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Steven Dortch wrote: > OK Girls, I am going to check out for a couple of days until everyone's > panties are not wadded up. > > I got about 1/2 of what I thought I would get done done. so I am going to > hit it hard on the Sabbath. See you Monday, or Tuesday or so. > > Everyone usually mellows out after a tiff. > > Blue Skies. > Steve Hope to finish My horizontal stab tomorrow and cover it Monday. then > on to painting them. > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Steven Dortch > wrote: > >> All is forgiven when a plane flies. >> >> Blue Skies, >> Steve D. >> >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 8:10 PM, John Woods >> wrote: >> >>> Andy, >>> >>> I think you have to take a bit of time to digest what William has >>> written. >>> >>> When you do, you may see that what he has written is very true, not only >>> for experimental aviation but for everything in life. >>> >>> By the way, it's great to get 17 supportive emails, but don't become >>> abusive to the one email that brings you back to reality. >>> >>> Williams story obviously hit a nerve, as you can relate to what he has >>> said. >>> >>> It's only a story after all........all be it one with a lot of truth to >>> it. >>> >>> The question for you is, "Does it apply to me?" >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>>> * >>> >>> >>> * >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Blue Skies, >> Steve D >> > > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Subject: A65 Engine Start
From: Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Hi Guys, I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. I still have one problem though. I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle, the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb heat all is well. I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any difference thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn=B9t make any difference. Any ideas? Thanks Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://repiet.cpc-world.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: A65 Engine Start
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Peter it sounds to me like you have a slight vacuum leak, probably around the rubber fittings that connect the tubes from the intake spider to the individual cylinders. Running carb heat tends to richen the mixture slightly so if that makes it run smoother it is probably a bit too lean. I had the same problem when I first built my A65. A dangerous but effective way to determine where the leak is located is to use a spray bottle filled with gasoline (petrol?), and as the engine is running roughly, spray the gasoline on the outside of the suspected leak area. If the engine smoothes out, you have found the leak. Good luck with it! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Johnson Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:39 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start Hi Guys, I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. I still have one problem though. I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle, the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb heat all is well. I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any difference thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn't make any difference. Any ideas? Thanks Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://repiet.cpc-world.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Subject: RE: A65 Engine Start
From: Matt Paxton <woodflier(at)aol.com>
U2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgNEcgTFRFIFRhYmxldAoKUGV0ZXIsIEkndmUg dXNlZCBhIHZhcmlhdGlvbiBvZiBKYWNrJ3MgdGVjaG5pcXVlLCBidXQgd2l0aCBhIGNhbiBvZiBj YXJidXJldG9yIGNsZWFuZXIuIEdldCBvbmUgd2l0aCB0aGUgcGxhc3RpYyB0dWJlIHRoYXQgZml0 cyBvbiB0aGUgbm96emxlLiBZb3UgY2FuIHB1dCB0aGUgY2xlYW5lciBqdXN0IHdoZXJlIHlvdSB3 YW50IHRvIGNoZWNrIGFuZCBpdCBtYXkgbm90IGJlIGFzIHZvbGF0aWxlIGFzIGdhc29saW5lLiBX b3JrZWQgd2VsbCBmb3IgbWUuCgpNYXR0IFBheHRvbgpOWDYyOU1M ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jeff Martin <jammerrv8(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: A65 Engine Start
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Im told WD40 will do the same and allot safer. Jeff Martin > On Mar 22, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Jack Philips wrote : > > Peter it sounds to me like you have a slight vacuum leak, probably around t he rubber fittings that connect the tubes from the intake spider to the indi vidual cylinders. Running carb heat tends to richen the mixture slightly so if that makes it run smoother it is probably a bit too lean. I had the sam e problem when I first built my A65. > > A dangerous but effective way to determine where the leak is located is to use a spray bottle filled with gasoline (petrol?), and as the engine is run ning roughly, spray the gasoline on the outside of the suspected leak area. If the engine smoothes out, you have found the leak. > > Good luck with it! > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Johnson > Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:39 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start > > Hi Guys, > > I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. > > I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. > > I still have one problem though. > > I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. > > Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle , the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb h eat all is well. > > I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. > > If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. > > I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any diff erence thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn=99t make any difference. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > > Peter > Wonthaggi Australia > http://repiet.cpc-world.com > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 22, 2015
From: Bill Budgell <rfbudgell(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: A65 Engine Start
Hello Peter Bill Budgell from Canada.... reading your post here. I wouldn't spray gas on the intakes as suggested that's not very smart to d o I don't think I need to tell you why. First when was the carb rebuilt.... what setting do you have it set at on the main jet the big screw?. How are the=C2-spark plug wires rough or new ..... have you checked the ohms on the spark plugs or are they new.... what colour are the plugs black brown e tc... when you take them out to inspect that will tell a lot of information If you had a vac leak you would be getting some popping when you closed th e throttle ... if you think you have a vac leak undo the rubber clamps on t he intakes and retighten but don't over tighten them .=C2-=C2-... get a continental A-65 manual and read it and follow the manual for set up. If all fails find an engineer to help you and learn from him it will be saf er in the long run for you...=C2- When that engine is set up right you sh ould be able to pull it through 4 times set the throttle and start every ti me. Pulling the prop through more than 4 time un-primes the cylinders a lot of people don't understand that?...... Let me know what you have set up see if I can get you going from here. Bill AME Canada=C2- =C2- =C2- From: Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au> To: "pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:39 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start Hi Guys, I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. I still have one problem though. I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle, the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb h eat all is well. I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any diffe rence thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn=99t make any difference. Any ideas? Thanks PeterWonthaggi Australiahttp://repiet.cpc-world.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Yocum <yocum137(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: A65 Engine Start
Date: Mar 22, 2015
The previous owner of N8031 had a similar issue - one of the tubes to the cy linders slipped a bit and he was losing vacuum. Peter - have read Harry Fenton's page on small Continentals? Most of us Yan ks consider him the authority in such manners (and some Suthinahs like Jack d o too). IIRC there's a section in there describing just your situation. So mething to do with clogged bleed holes in the carb... http://bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm#a65_hesitation Best, Dan -- Dan Yocum On Mar 22, 2015, at 7:54 AM, "Jack Philips" wrote : > Peter it sounds to me like you have a slight vacuum leak, probably around t he rubber fittings that connect the tubes from the intake spider to the indi vidual cylinders. Running carb heat tends to richen the mixture slightly so if that makes it run smoother it is probably a bit too lean. I had the sam e problem when I first built my A65. > > A dangerous but effective way to determine where the leak is located is to use a spray bottle filled with gasoline (petrol?), and as the engine is run ning roughly, spray the gasoline on the outside of the suspected leak area. If the engine smoothes out, you have found the leak. > > Good luck with it! > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Johnson > Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:39 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start > > Hi Guys, > > I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. > > I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. > > I still have one problem though. > > I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. > > Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle , the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb h eat all is well. > > I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. > > If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. > > I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any diff erence thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn=99t make any difference. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > > Peter > Wonthaggi Australia > http://repiet.cpc-world.com > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Speaking of getting started.....
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Been away for a while. Stopped back just to check in... I see not much has changed around here. That's too bad. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439732#439732 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: An invitation
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 22, 2015
I saw in another thread that one of the members here invited another to stop by for a visit. I just wanted to throw out a general invitation too. If any of you are in the Eastern/Northeastern Ohio area, please feel free to contact me. I love to talk Piets and share ideas... You are welcome to come take a look. WingWright(at)gmail.com is best. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439733#439733 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gmail <gbacon67(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: A65 Engine Start
Date: Mar 22, 2015
A small propane bottle works well for that too. Greg Bacon > On Mar 22, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Jack Philips wrote : > > Peter it sounds to me like you have a slight vacuum leak, probably around t he rubber fittings that connect the tubes from the intake spider to the indi vidual cylinders. Running carb heat tends to richen the mixture slightly so if that makes it run smoother it is probably a bit too lean. I had the sam e problem when I first built my A65. > > A dangerous but effective way to determine where the leak is located is to use a spray bottle filled with gasoline (petrol?), and as the engine is run ning roughly, spray the gasoline on the outside of the suspected leak area. If the engine smoothes out, you have found the leak. > > Good luck with it! > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Johnson > Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:39 AM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start > > Hi Guys, > > I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. > > I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. > > I still have one problem though. > > I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. > > Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle , the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb h eat all is well. > > I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. > > If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. > > I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any diff erence thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn=99t make any difference. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > > Peter > Wonthaggi Australia > http://repiet.cpc-world.com > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Newest Piet pilot!
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu>
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Hi All, I gave a ride to my friend and colleague, Andy Butler. He is part owner of a Mooney, flies CAP Cessnas and gliders a lot, and has some float time. BUT, he's never flown open cockpit or taildragger. So, we fixed that: https://youtu.be/vSztlgt22l4 It's a little upsetting. He lands my airplane better than I do! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439745#439745 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ray Krause <raykrause(at)frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Newest Piet pilot!
Date: Mar 22, 2015
Jeff, Great video, thanks! Ray Krause Sent from my iPad > On Mar 22, 2015, at 4:46 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I gave a ride to my friend and colleague, Andy Butler. He is part owner of a Mooney, flies CAP Cessnas and gliders a lot, and has some float time. BUT, he's never flown open cockpit or taildragger. > > So, we fixed that: > > https://youtu.be/vSztlgt22l4 > > > It's a little upsetting. He lands my airplane better than I do! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439745#439745 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newest Piet pilot!
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
What camera are you using ... GoPro? WF2 -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439758#439758 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JERRY" <jerry(at)SKYCLASSIC.NET>
Subject: Metal Fittings
Date: Mar 23, 2015
We are thinking of manufacturing the metal fittings for the Piet. We do fittings for the Skybolt, Pitts and the Christian Eagle and the Radial Rocket. But the Piet parts would not be available till the end of summer and then we would stock them. I don't have any idea of price yet. Jerry Grogan Sky Classic Aircraft -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tonyp51qa Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal Fittings Has anyone manufactured metal fittings and sold them for the Pietenpol? Is there any plans or supplemental plans out there for building the Aileron, vertical or horizontal stabilizer control horns with a solid piece of steel/aluminum? I don't have access to a TIG welder. Tony[/list] -------- Tony Crawford Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439695#439695 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 24, 2015
Subject: Re: A65 Engine Start
From: Peter Johnson <vk3eka(at)bigpond.net.au>
Jack, Thanks for the info, I=B9ll give it a go this weekend. Cheers Peter From: Jack Philips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> Date: Sunday, 22 March 2015 11:54 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start Peter it sounds to me like you have a slight vacuum leak, probably around the rubber fittings that connect the tubes from the intake spider to the individual cylinders. Running carb heat tends to richen the mixture slightly so if that makes it run smoother it is probably a bit too lean. I had the same problem when I first built my A65. A dangerous but effective way to determine where the leak is located is to use a spray bottle filled with gasoline (petrol?), and as the engine is running roughly, spray the gasoline on the outside of the suspected leak area. If the engine smoothes out, you have found the leak. Good luck with it! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Johnson Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:39 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A65 Engine Start Hi Guys, I have been trying a few engine starts on my newly rebuilt A65. I had a few problems along the way but now have most of the sorted. I still have one problem though. I can start the engine after one primer stroke, pull through once and then the next starts. Very good so far. Tick over is good (600 or 700 rpm presently) but as I advance the throttle, the engine starts to miss and generally run rough. If I operate the carb heat all is well. I have managed a max rpm of 2100 static at the moment and feel it could go another 100 or so. If I put the carb heat to cold the engine starts running rough again. I took the air filter off the front of the carb to see if it made any difference thinking there may be a rich/lean mixture. It didn=B9t make any difference. Any ideas? Thanks Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://repiet.cpc-world.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story
Date: Mar 23, 2015
17 years ago I first flew my Piet on an A-65 that I overhauled with the ove rsight of a great A&P/ IA by the name of Don Helmick. Don had rebuilt lots of these motors and the carbs and mags too so I took Don's adv ice and followed the Continental overhaul manual. By God's grace and favor and not taking any short cuts on that overhaul I w as able to get many years of good flying out of that engine but in the past year or two the oil pressure has slowly started to drop so time for a major overhaul this past winter. I didn't overhaul the engine on the plane but bought a no-logs engine from a guy in Michigan for $500 from Barnstormers. Here's my costs so far. The cost to overhaul a small Continental are pretty affordable, even if you go top notch with having all the inspections, magnafluxing, machining, nitriding, heat treating, resurfacing, and reconditioning done a t FAA Certified Repair facilities with all parts coming back yellow tagged. Total came to $4,801 not including carb or mag overhauls because I'll be tr ansferring those directly from the old engine to the new engine. The crankcase halves were in excellent condition so only required a few stu d replacements and minor machining so saved a bit there by it not having any cracks or re-boring issues. Mike C. No-log A-65 from Michigan: $500 Crankcase halves reconditioned, Crankcase Services, Inc. Oklahoma: $375 Crank, cam, cam followers, rods, and $1,392 rockers reconditioned, Aircraft Engine & Accessory, Dallas, TX 4 cylinders, complete overhaul to STD $1,150 dimensions, Harrison Engine Service, LaPorte, IN All new hardware, gasket sets rings, $1,384 pistons, valve springs, etc, Fresno Air Parts, needed exhaust valves, 1 intake.... ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal Fittings
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
That would be a great service Jerry! I can attest to Jerry's high quality of work. He has been a great help to me welding the critical parts for my Piet! BTW Jerry we are back from Florida and I will come get the mount this week. Thanks! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Mar 23, 2015, at 8:28 AM, "JERRY" wrote: > > > We are thinking of manufacturing the metal fittings for the Piet. We do > fittings for the Skybolt, Pitts and the Christian Eagle and the Radial > Rocket. But the Piet parts would not be available till the end of summer and > then we would stock them. I don't have any idea of price yet. > > Jerry Grogan > Sky Classic Aircraft > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tonyp51qa > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:06 PM > To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal Fittings > > > Has anyone manufactured metal fittings and sold them for the Pietenpol? Is > there any plans or supplemental plans out there for building the Aileron, > vertical or horizontal stabilizer control horns with a solid piece of > steel/aluminum? I don't have access to a TIG welder. > > Tony[/list] > > -------- > Tony Crawford > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439695#439695 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Hello good Piet-ple, Hope you all are well..... I consulted with a number of folks regarding my center-section and cabaine struts and the consensus was that I should modify/angle my cabaine struts outward to directly tie them to the wing-attach fittings. So after a weekend of work, I am mostly there. I still need my welder "fill" some of the bolt holes in the fuselage fittings (and then re-drill them) but the structural load path is "more correct" (aka WACO, Stearman, etc....) Never fun to do things over that I thought I had done but it seemed like the right thing to do and now that it is nearly done I am glad I made the change. Will be an unusual "look" for a Piet but it's kinda fun that way.... Enjoy your day everyone............ -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439779#439779 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/5_cabaine_struts_angled_out_1_399.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/6_cabaine_struts_angled_out_2_146.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Subject: Re: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story
From: Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch(at)gmail.com>
Mike, your email is unclear in one area. I think you are talking about a new overhaul, but the way it is worded it could have been your 17 year old overhaul. You bought the No-Log engine when? Thanks for the info/inspiration. Blue Skies, Steve D. On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] wrote: > 17 years ago I first flew my Piet on an A-65 that I overhauled with the > oversight of a great A&P/ IA by the name of Don Helmick. Don had > > rebuilt lots of these motors and the carbs and mags too so I took Don =99s > advice and followed the Continental overhaul manual. > > > By God=99s grace and favor and not taking any short cuts on that ov erhaul I > was able to get many years of good flying out of that engine but > > in the past year or two the oil pressure has slowly started to drop so > time for a major overhaul this past winter. > > > I didn=99t overhaul the engine on the plane but bought a no-logs en gine from > a guy in Michigan for $500 from Barnstormers. Here=99s my costs > > so far. The cost to overhaul a small Continental are pretty affordable , > even if you go top notch with having all the inspections, magnafluxing, > > machining, nitriding, heat treating, resurfacing, and reconditioning done > at FAA Certified Repair facilities with all parts coming back yellow > tagged. > > > Total came to $4,801 not including carb or mag overhauls because I =99ll be > transferring those directly from the old engine to the new engine. > > > The crankcase halves were in excellent condition so only required a few > stud replacements and minor machining so saved a bit there by it not > > having any cracks or re-boring issues. > > > Mike C. > > > No-log A-65 from Michigan: $500 > > > Crankcase halves reconditioned, > > Crankcase Services, Inc. Oklahoma: $375 > > > Crank, cam, cam followers, rods, and $1,392 > > rockers reconditioned, Aircraft Engine > > & Accessory, Dallas, TX > > > 4 cylinders, complete overhaul to STD $1,150 > > dimensions, Harrison Engine Service, > > LaPorte, IN > > > All new hardware, gasket sets rings, $1,384 > > pistons, valve springs, etc, Fresno > > Air Parts, needed exhaust valves, > > 1 intake. > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story
Date: Mar 23, 2015
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Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns(at)att.net>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Jake I know you have a wider center section but others have done vertical cabaine struts with wider center sections. What was the line of thinking that made "the consensus [is]... I should modify/angle my cabaine struts outward to directly tie them to the wing-attach fittings". I ask because I do not see the benefit from a structural standpoint. Not a criticism, I'm just curious about the decision path. (I like that part of building). Also, one thing you learn about Pietenpols is there are very few, if any, new changes you can think of. For instance this Pietenpol has the angled cabaine struts too. http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/WCP_2013_Gathering/IMG_0595.JPG Thanks Chris -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439786#439786 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newest Piet pilot!
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
womenfly2 wrote: > What camera are you using ... GoPro? > > WF2 Mobius ActionCams 120 degree lense pointed backwards and 170 degree lense pointing forwards. https://www.mobius-actioncam.com http://www.amazon.com/Mobius-Action-Camera-1080P-Sports/dp/B00DP1WYD2 HTH, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439789#439789 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newest Piet pilot!
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Thanks. Takes get video as you have shown. WF2 -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439790#439790 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Newest Piet pilot!
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
womenfly2 wrote: > Thanks. Takes get video as you have shown. > > WF2 Thanks. Only downside to them is that they must be programmed for bright versus cloudy days, which requires connecting to the computer prior to flying. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439791#439791 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Thanks Chris, Like you said, everything that can be tried has been tried before...! The thoughts of a friend of mine who is a structural and aeronautical engineer (and who also owns a Travel Aire biplane and several additional antique planes) are that the cabaines ending at the fittings would tie the load directly to them, as opposed to having the load be about eight inches away. He felt that yes, it would PROBABLY be just fine to have the cabaines vertical, but by canting the cabaines outward it should make for a better structural arrangement. There are many, many examples of 1930s era planes with wide center sections where the cabaine struts are angled outward. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439797#439797 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Mike that agrees pretty well with the costs I had rebuilding my A65 12 years ago, adjusted for inflation. The only things I did differently were to include a brand new camshaft (old one was pitted and had a chunk missing from one lobe) and the new Millenium cylinders, which added $3,200 to the total but included new pistons, new rocker shafts, new piston rings and new piston pins. My total was right at $7,500, including the cost of the engine core. I assembled it myself, under the strict supervision of an A&P, IA. Note that this means the engine was "0" SMOH, or zero hours since major overhaul, NOT zero time. As the Sky Ranch Engineering Manual says, "You can't zero-time the metallurgy" Since then I have rebuilt the oil pump (I did not put new oil pump gears in during the rebuild) for an additional $400 or so. I've put about 400 hours on it in 10 years. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 12:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story 17 years ago I first flew my Piet on an A-65 that I overhauled with the oversight of a great A&P/ IA by the name of Don Helmick. Don had rebuilt lots of these motors and the carbs and mags too so I took Don's advice and followed the Continental overhaul manual. By God's grace and favor and not taking any short cuts on that overhaul I was able to get many years of good flying out of that engine but in the past year or two the oil pressure has slowly started to drop so time for a major overhaul this past winter. I didn't overhaul the engine on the plane but bought a no-logs engine from a guy in Michigan for $500 from Barnstormers. Here's my costs so far. The cost to overhaul a small Continental are pretty affordable, even if you go top notch with having all the inspections, magnafluxing, machining, nitriding, heat treating, resurfacing, and reconditioning done at FAA Certified Repair facilities with all parts coming back yellow tagged. Total came to $4,801 not including carb or mag overhauls because I'll be transferring those directly from the old engine to the new engine. The crankcase halves were in excellent condition so only required a few stud replacements and minor machining so saved a bit there by it not having any cracks or re-boring issues. Mike C. No-log A-65 from Michigan: $500 Crankcase halves reconditioned, Crankcase Services, Inc. Oklahoma: $375 Crank, cam, cam followers, rods, and $1,392 rockers reconditioned, Aircraft Engine & Accessory, Dallas, TX 4 cylinders, complete overhaul to STD $1,150 dimensions, Harrison Engine Service, LaPorte, IN All new hardware, gasket sets rings, $1,384 pistons, valve springs, etc, Fresno Air Parts, needed exhaust valves, 1 intake.. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal Fittings
From: "johnnysdrop" <johnnysdrop(at)googlemail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Tony, we have them as an approved mod here in the UK, contact Peter Wright at the Pietenpol Club UK for the details. English Johnny Still on the wings!!!! -------- The only way is UP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439800#439800 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2015
From: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
Jake I did the same as you. A little analysis ( http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/wing_loads.html ) convinced me that with the wider center section, attaching to the end of the center section vice straight up was the way to go for strength. As a result of widening the center section, more lift is carried on the cabanes and less on the lift struts than the standard width center section, but it's a relatively small change. Are you shortening the outer panels to make up for the wider center (that's what I did), or leaving them and going with a longer wingspan? Malcolm Morrison wienerdogaero.com http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/piet.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 3:47:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section... Thanks Chris, Like you said, everything that can be tried has been tried before...! The thoughts of a friend of mine who is a structural and aeronautical engineer (and who also owns a Travel Aire biplane and several additional antique planes) are that the cabaines ending at the fittings would tie the load directly to them, as opposed to having the load be about eight inches away. He felt that yes, it would PROBABLY be just fine to have the cabaines vertical, but by canting the cabaines outward it should make for a better structural arrangement. There are many, many examples of 1930s era planes with wide center sections where the cabaine struts are angled outward. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439797#439797 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2015
From: George Abernathy <avionixoz(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Metal Fittings
I had the aileron, rudder, elevator control horn fittings laser cut.=C2-I f there is interest I can do another run.=C2- G From: JERRY <jerry(at)skyclassic.net> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 6:28 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Metal Fittings We are thinking of manufacturing the metal fittings for the Piet. We do fittings for the Skybolt, Pitts and the Christian Eagle and the Radial Rocket. But the Piet parts would not be available till the end of summer an d then we would stock them. I don't have any idea of price yet. Jerry Grogan Sky Classic Aircraft -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of tonyp51qa Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:06 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal Fittings Has anyone manufactured metal fittings and sold them for the Pietenpol? Is there any plans or supplemental plans out there for building the Aileron, vertical or horizontal stabilizer control horns with a solid piece of steel/aluminum? I don't have access to a TIG welder. Tony[/list] -------- Tony Crawford Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439695#439695 S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal Fittings
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
This topic comes up from time to time. Pound for pound, the plans-built control horns are the best option. The shaping of the parts provides all the needed strength , while only using thin sheet metal. Some builders have made their horns from thicker sheet steel, but they are always heavier than the plans-built, airfoil shaped horns - usually 50 to 100 percent heavier. The option of aluminum horns get mentioned as well, but due to metallurgical concerns, no welding should be used on aluminum horns - which necessitates more fasteners, which in turn, add weight. But, perhaps more importantly, the plans-built control horns are just the right thing to do on an airplane that was designed in the golden age of aviation. They just look cool (while providing all the necessary strength.) Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439803#439803 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Actually, since the Pietenpol has the lift struts attaching in the middle of the wing panels, there are very little lift loads carried by the cabanes (just the lift generated by the centersection, which is not too much). The fittings are easier to make if the struts attach at the end of the centersection spars (ask me how I know). This is a typical case of one change rippling through the entire airplane. Just be careful to think it through completely. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of aerocarjake Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 3:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section... --> Thanks Chris, Like you said, everything that can be tried has been tried before...! The thoughts of a friend of mine who is a structural and aeronautical engineer (and who also owns a Travel Aire biplane and several additional antique planes) are that the cabaines ending at the fittings would tie the load directly to them, as opposed to having the load be about eight inches away. He felt that yes, it would PROBABLY be just fine to have the cabaines vertical, but by canting the cabaines outward it should make for a better structural arrangement. There are many, many examples of 1930s era planes with wide center sections where the cabaine struts are angled outward. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439797#439797 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: new builder upstate NY
From: "dmcb84" <dmcb84(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Ok, thought i would join the fun on here. www.davespiet.blogspot.com Started building march 2014. Lots of reading, EAA sport air workshop, brodhead, and a corvair college in the books. Just starting to get familiar with the airframe. Hope to get alot more building done this year when the weather starts to warm. David McBride Rochester, NY dmcb84(at)hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439805#439805 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_43_01_409.png http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_42_22_123.png ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 23, 2015
From: Jim Boyer <boyerjrb(at)comcast.net>
Subject: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story
________________________________________________________________________________
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: new builder upstate NY
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Welcome to the fray, David! Getting those danged ribs done is a big step! Sent from my iPad > On Mar 23, 2015, at 3:50 PM, dmcb84 wrote: > > > Ok, thought i would join the fun on here. > > www.davespiet.blogspot.com > > Started building march 2014. Lots of reading, EAA sport air workshop, brodhead, and a corvair college in the books. Just starting to get familiar with the airframe. Hope to get alot more building done this year when the weather starts to warm. > > David McBride > Rochester, NY > dmcb84(at)hotmail.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439805#439805 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_43_01_409.png > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_42_22_123.png > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new builder upstate NY
From: Gardiner Mason <airlion2(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Dave, I see thatyouarenot a heavyweight, but you aught to consider building your fuselage 26 inches wide instead of 24. It sure helps for the comfort and doesn't, add that much weight. Gardiner Mason. Up where you live you can dress more warmly? Sent from my iPad > On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:50 PM, "dmcb84" wrote: > > > Ok, thought i would join the fun on here. > > www.davespiet.blogspot.com > > Started building march 2014. Lots of reading, EAA sport air workshop, brodhead, and a corvair college in the books. Just starting to get familiar with the airframe. Hope to get alot more building done this year when the weather starts to warm. > > David McBride > Rochester, NY > dmcb84(at)hotmail.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439805#439805 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_43_01_409.png > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_42_22_123.png > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new builder upstate NY
From: "dmcb84" <dmcb84(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
I can dress warmer but the glue doesnt like the freezing temps in the shop. A few more.... David McBride Rochester, NY dmcb84(at)hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439809#439809 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/2015_03_23_191120_851.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/2015_03_23_185514_134.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bob Parks (Cub) and Pete Bowers (Pietenpol) in 1969...
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
That photo in the rain is almost poetic. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439813#439813 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Bob Parks (Cub) and Pete Bowers (Pietenpol) in
1969...
From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Cool photos. The Cub actually looks to be an Aeronca Defender or L-3 from the nose, gear and tail. Anyone else concur? Best, -john- > On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Jeff Boatright wrote: > > > That photo in the rain is almost poetic. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439813#439813 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "CatDesigns" <CatDesigns(at)att.net>
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Jake Thank for the explanation. Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of aerocarjake Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 12:47 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section... --> Thanks Chris, Like you said, everything that can be tried has been tried before...! The thoughts of a friend of mine who is a structural and aeronautical engineer (and who also owns a Travel Aire biplane and several additional antique planes) are that the cabaines ending at the fittings would tie the load directly to them, as opposed to having the load be about eight inches away. He felt that yes, it would PROBABLY be just fine to have the cabaines vertical, but by canting the cabaines outward it should make for a better structural arrangement. There are many, many examples of 1930s era planes with wide center sections where the cabaine struts are angled outward. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439797#439797 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: The Jeepenpol progress
From: "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
I moved the girl out to the farm where I had some hangar space for paint and assembly. It will stay there while I use my small shop at home to build my wings. Certainly hope the wings will go together without too much difficulty , I would like to fly sometime before Winter. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439817#439817 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: The Jeepenpol progress
From: "aviken" <aviken(at)windstream.net>
Date: Mar 23, 2015
Trying to add some pictures here, patience. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439818#439818 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2015
Malcolm, Good input. Would love to see photos. As you have done, I shortened each outboard panel to make up for the wider center-section - so my wingspan will remain essentially the same. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439826#439826 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Need some contact info
From: Fastnaught John <fastnaught(at)windstream.net>
Date: Mar 24, 2015
Friends and Pieters. Does anyone know Dick Weeden and have any contact information. I need to talk to him about the Bergs pump for the Model A engine. Thanks, Jack ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Uncle Tony's books on sale
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2015
25% off! http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/media/aviation-books/2251598800000__bingelis-set-of-4 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need some contact info
From: "tkreiner" <tkreiner(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2015
Try calling Mike Weeden at 608-214-6652, he'll know the phone number for Dick... -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439834#439834 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal Fittings
From: "dgaldrich" <dgaldrich(at)embarqmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2015
Didn't Ken Perkins offer some or all of the metal bits? There's also a synapse firing that says he had them in a CAD program so they could be done on a waterjet/laserjet machine. I know he's bowing out of the Model A Ford business but he might still have the code available for the flat metal bits. If he has, in fact, bowed out of all things aviation, it's our loss. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439840#439840 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 25, 2015
From: gliderx5(at)comcast.net
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
Jake, Here are a couple links to my website. I haven't worked on the Piet for a few years. In the mean time I've recovered a Kolb, finished a Titan Tornado, and I'm almost done with a Micro Mong. Soon I hope to be back on the Piet. http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/piet.html http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/Piet_update.htm Malcolm Morrison www.wienerdogaero.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 11:21:43 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section... Malcolm, Good input. Would love to see photos. As you have done, I shortened each outboard panel to make up for the wider center-section - so my wingspan will remain essentially the same. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439826#439826 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Revised the cabaine struts for a wider center-section...
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 24, 2015
Malcolm, your Piet looks awesome...! Love the folding wind and how well thought out the plane seems to be.... -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439856#439856 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: new builder upstate NY
From: Amsafetyc <amsafetyc(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2015
I made mine wider by about the same. It added a little more work and a good bit of space. Highly recommend it, especially if you plan on flying in colder temps makes room for an extra layer of cloths. John Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Gardiner Mason wrote: > > > Dave, I see thatyouarenot a heavyweight, but you aught to consider building your fuselage 26 inches wide instead of 24. It sure helps for the comfort and doesn't, add that much weight. Gardiner Mason. Up where you live you can dress more warmly? > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:50 PM, "dmcb84" wrote: >> >> >> Ok, thought i would join the fun on here. >> >> www.davespiet.blogspot.com >> >> Started building march 2014. Lots of reading, EAA sport air workshop, brodhead, and a corvair college in the books. Just starting to get familiar with the airframe. Hope to get alot more building done this year when the weather starts to warm. >> >> David McBride >> Rochester, NY >> dmcb84(at)hotmail.com >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439805#439805 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_43_01_409.png >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/screenshot_2015_03_23_17_42_22_123.png >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Rich Harris from New York
From: "tstancy" <thomas.e.stancy(at)boeing.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2015
Greetings, Would anyone know of a Rich Harris from New York State who was building a Pietenpol in the 1990's? I am interested in contacting him if possible. Thank you, Tom Stancy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439908#439908 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New (Free) Aviation App
From: "gbrasch" <gmbrasch(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 26, 2015
I can now insert photos of your courtesy cars into the app listings. Feel free to email me your photos, and please be sure to indicate in the title of the email the airport ID and/or city location, and if there is more than one FBO, which one the car is located at. The app has broken 1400 locations nationwide. Thanks, Glenn Email to airportcars101(at)gmail.com -------- Glenn Brasch RV-9A Flying 1952 Piper Tri-Pacer Medevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret) Tucson, Arizona Owner, www.RVairspace.com and "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone App. Over 1400 cars nationwide. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439939#439939 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rich Harris from New York
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 27, 2015
Tom, http://www.zabasearch.com/people/rich+harris/ny/ -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439954#439954 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Corvair College #33 Sign Up Deadline
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 27, 2015
I just wanted to remind anyone interested in the next Corvair College, that the deadline to sign up is this Sunday. Here is a link- http://flycorvair.net/2015/03/27/corvair-college-33-sign-up-closes-sunday-329-9pm-est/ This is a great opportunity to meet and work with people who truly love airplanes in general and experimental aviation in particular. Whether you are building a Corvair, thinking about building a Corvair, or just want to meet some great people, you should sign up. It will be a weekend to remember, no matter what. In addition, I plan on bringing my steel tube Pietenpol fuselage there. It will show the door cut for the front cockpit, and the die spring cub-style gear. If any of you are thinking about doing that style of main gear, it would be a great time to break out the tape measure and camera. I hope that we have a good turnout of Piet people there! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439955#439955 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story
From: Amsafetyc <amsafetyc(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 27, 2015
I got to say , I sent my cylinders out to Harrison and was very pleased with the work and the pricing. Those guys are great. Lycoming O235 C1B John Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2015, at 12:23 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners , LLC]" wrote: > > 17 years ago I first flew my Piet on an A-65 that I overhauled with the ov ersight of a great A&P/ IA by the name of Don Helmick. Don had > rebuilt lots of these motors and the carbs and mags too so I took Don =99s advice and followed the Continental overhaul manual. > > By God=99s grace and favor and not taking any short cuts on that ove rhaul I was able to get many years of good flying out of that engine but > in the past year or two the oil pressure has slowly started to drop so tim e for a major overhaul this past winter. > > I didn=99t overhaul the engine on the plane but bought a no-logs eng ine from a guy in Michigan for $500 from Barnstormers. Here=99s my c osts > so far. The cost to overhaul a small Continental are pretty affordable, even if you go top notch with having all the inspections, magnafluxing, > machining, nitriding, heat treating, resurfacing, and reconditioning done a t FAA Certified Repair facilities with all parts coming back yellow tagged. > > Total came to $4,801 not including carb or mag overhauls because I=99 ll be transferring those directly from the old engine to the new engine. > > The crankcase halves were in excellent condition so only required a few st ud replacements and minor machining so saved a bit there by it not > having any cracks or re-boring issues. > > Mike C. > > > No-log A-65 from Michigan: $500 > > Crankcase halves reconditioned, > Crankcase Services, Inc. Oklahoma: $375 > > Crank, cam, cam followers, rods, and $1,392 > rockers reconditioned, Aircraft Engine > & Accessory, Dallas, TX > > 4 cylinders, complete overhaul to STD $1,150 > dimensions, Harrison Engine Service, > LaPorte, IN > > All new hardware, gasket sets rings, $1,384 > pistons, valve springs, etc, Fresno > Air Parts, needed exhaust valves, > 1 intake. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build?
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 27, 2015
Did the Subject Line get your attention? I hope so. I spoke this afternoon to Skip Gadd, who is already down at Sun-N-Fun. He and his wife have gone down there for years helping set up. He has worked in the Hands On Workshops for most, if not all of that time. He has worked with many people such as Dick Navratil and (I think) Dave Aldrich from the forum. Typically they build Pietenpol parts, such as the ribs, the empennage, the fuselage, among others. I think last year they worked on floats for Dick's Sky Scout project. Well, this year they have no specific project to work on. So here is where you come in. If you have the materials for some phase of your build, but have not had the time, and can get the materials to Sun-N-Fun, they would like to help boost your project along by building some portion of your Pietenpol project either for you, or with you, if you have the time to be there. The Pietenpol has always been a popular project in the Hand On Woodworking Workshop, and they would like this year to be no different. These are experienced builders, so they would do a great job. They would like to make it a win-win for everyone. They get a project to work on, and you get a big boost to your project. If you have an interest, please either PM me, or you can email me at jarheadpilot82 (at) hotmail (dot) com. I can then get you Skip's contact info. Skip is having a little trouble with his internet service, so I told him that I would post it for him. I hope to hear from some lucky soul real soon! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439971#439971 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 03/27/15
From: Stuart Brown <stu_brown(at)verizon.net>
Date: Mar 28, 2015
Corvair Collage will not be held in Leesberg, Fl. My EAA chapter was to host the Collage, got an email last night saying the Collage has been canceled. Check with WW to see if he had another venue. Stu Sent from my iPad > On Mar 28, 2015, at 3:02 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote: > > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 15-03-27&Archive=Pietenpol > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 15-03-27&Archive=Pietenpol > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Pietenpol-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Fri 03/27/15: 4 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 04:53 AM - Re: Rich Harris from New York (jarheadpilot82) > 2. 05:30 AM - Corvair College #33 Sign Up Deadline (jarheadpilot82) > 3. 07:13 AM - Re: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story (Amsafetyc) > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 15-03-27&Archive=Pietenpol > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 15-03-27&Archive=Pietenpol > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Pietenpol-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Fri 03/27/15: 4 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 04:53 AM - Re: Rich Harris from New York (jarheadpilot82) > 2. 05:30 AM - Corvair College #33 Sign Up Deadline (jarheadpilot82) > 3. 07:13 AM - Re: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story (Amsafetyc) > 4. 08:20 PM - Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build? (jarheadpilot82) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Rich Harris from New York > From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> > > > Tom, > > http://www.zabasearch.com/people/rich+harris/ny/ > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439954#439954 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College #33 Sign Up Deadline > From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> > > > I just wanted to remind anyone interested in the next Corvair College, that the > deadline to sign up is this Sunday. Here is a link- > > http://flycorvair.net/2015/03/27/corvair-college-33-sign-up-closes-sunday-329-9pm-est/ > > This is a great opportunity to meet and work with people who truly love airplanes > in general and experimental aviation in particular. Whether you are building > a Corvair, thinking about building a Corvair, or just want to meet some great > people, you should sign up. It will be a weekend to remember, no matter what. > > In addition, I plan on bringing my steel tube Pietenpol fuselage there. It will > show the door cut for the front cockpit, and the die spring cub-style gear. If > any of you are thinking about doing that style of main gear, it would be a great > time to break out the tape measure and camera. > > I hope that we have a good turnout of Piet people there! > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439955#439955 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-65 overhaul costs, one man's story > From: Amsafetyc <amsafetyc(at)aol.com> > > I got to say , I sent my cylinders out to Harrison and was very pleased with > the work and the pricing. Those guys are great. Lycoming O235 C1B > > John > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 23, 2015, at 12:23 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners > , LLC]" wrote: >> >> 17 years ago I first flew my Piet on an A-65 that I overhauled with the ov > ersight of a great A&P/ IA by the name of Don Helmick. Don had >> rebuilt lots of these motors and the carbs and mags too so I took Don > =99s advice and followed the Continental overhaul manual. >> >> By God=99s grace and favor and not taking any short cuts on that ove > rhaul I was able to get many years of good flying out of that engine but >> in the past year or two the oil pressure has slowly started to drop so tim > e for a major overhaul this past winter. >> >> I didn=99t overhaul the engine on the plane but bought a no-logs eng > ine from a guy in Michigan for $500 from Barnstormers. Here=99s my c > osts >> so far. The cost to overhaul a small Continental are pretty affordable, > even if you go top notch with having all the inspections, magnafluxing, >> machining, nitriding, heat treating, resurfacing, and reconditioning done a > t FAA Certified Repair facilities with all parts coming back yellow tagged. >> >> Total came to $4,801 not including carb or mag overhauls because I=99 > ll be transferring those directly from the old engine to the new engine. > >> >> The crankcase halves were in excellent condition so only required a few st > ud replacements and minor machining so saved a bit there by it not >> having any cracks or re-boring issues. >> >> Mike C. >> >> >> No-log A-65 from Michigan: $500 >> >> Crankcase halves reconditioned, >> Crankcase Services, Inc. Oklahoma: $375 >> >> Crank, cam, cam followers, rods, and $1,392 >> rockers reconditioned, Aircraft Engine >> & Accessory, Dallas, TX >> >> 4 cylinders, complete overhaul to STD $1,150 >> dimensions, Harrison Engine Service, >> LaPorte, IN >> >> All new hardware, gasket sets rings, $1,384 >> pistons, valve springs, etc, Fresno >> Air Parts, needed exhaust valves, >> 1 intake. >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build? > From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> > > > Did the Subject Line get your attention? I hope so. > > I spoke this afternoon to Skip Gadd, who is already down at Sun-N-Fun. He and his > wife have gone down there for years helping set up. He has worked in the Hands > On Workshops for most, if not all of that time. He has worked with many people > such as Dick Navratil and (I think) Dave Aldrich from the forum. Typically > they build Pietenpol parts, such as the ribs, the empennage, the fuselage, among > others. I think last year they worked on floats for Dick's Sky Scout project. > Well, this year they have no specific project to work on. So here is where > you come in. > > If you have the materials for some phase of your build, but have not had the time, > and can get the materials to Sun-N-Fun, they would like to help boost your > project along by building some portion of your Pietenpol project either for you, > or with you, if you have the time to be there. The Pietenpol has always been > a popular project in the Hand On Woodworking Workshop, and they would like > this year to be no different. These are experienced builders, so they would do > a great job. They would like to make it a win-win for everyone. They get a project > to work on, and you get a big boost to your project. > > If you have an interest, please either PM me, or you can email me at jarheadpilot82 > (at) hotmail (dot) com. I can then get you Skip's contact info. Skip is having > a little trouble with his internet service, so I told him that I would post > it for him. > > I hope to hear from some lucky soul real soon! > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439971#439971 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2015
Subject: Metal tube frames
From: benjamin piet <benjaminpiet528(at)gmail.com>
Is there an advantage of using a steel tube frame? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 28, 2015
From: Bill Budgell <rfbudgell(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
If you can weld yes ..... is it cheaper yes than wood.... is it=C2-as str ong=C2-as wood yes..... is it lighter not by that much depends on the cha nges you make the same to wood fuselage..... is it a mater of preference ye s.=C2- From: benjamin piet <benjaminpiet528(at)gmail.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 3:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Metal tube frames Is there an advantage of using a steel tube frame? ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 03/27/15
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 28, 2015
Not cancelled. Stay tuned for updates. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439986#439986 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 03/27/15
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Stu, Corvair College #33 is not canceled at all. We have moved the event to Mid Florida airport at Eustis, A friendly welcoming privately owned grass strip 14 miles from Leesburg. I was there today putting the last touches on the arrangements with the airport owner Mr. Rama and the manager Rex Wyatt. The setting is pure grass roots aviation, without the tower, chain link fence, gate swipe cards and barbed wire required at the Leesburg public airport. Although we has two previous successful Colleges working with EAA 534, and the leadership of the chapter had agreed to host college #33 weeks ago before we opened the sign up, The EAA 534 president emailed me 4 days to say his chapter was backing out. His official reason was that he claimed he just found out that we had originally considered Palatka airport for #33, and this quote "Dissed" his chapter. Although 534 made over $1,000 profit last year doing the food, and I donated a core engine to the chapter and a full set of Corvair materials, The event chairman said "There as nothing in hosting for 534" No appeal to common sense citing the late date and the fact people had long bought airline tickets moved either man. Not a problem, we are glad to move the event a few miles down the road and work with the private airport at Eustis. People signed up for the college will get a complete brief on the improved location after sign up closes at 9m tonight. Stu, if you mistakenly told any other group the event was canceled, please let me know so I can correct it there also. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439993#439993 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: New running Corvair Built by Tim Hansen
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Piet Fans, Here is a link to a story about a Corvair built by Piet builder Tim Hansen of Orient Ohio: http://flycorvair.net/2015/03/29/100-hp-corvair-tim-hansen-persistance-pays/ Tim has attended previous colleges, and came down to out airport in Florida this weekend to finish and test run his engine. The story has a number of good pictures, and contains motivational stuff centered on "Persistence Pays." -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439994#439994 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2015
From: Yahoo! Account Service <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build?
Terry and all, Thanks to Terry's post we have a project to work on in the Sun N Fun hands on wood shop this year. Tony from Alabama will send down a Fin and Rudder material kit and we will meet him somewhere on I 75 on the way north with a completed fin and rudder. Anyone planning to come to Sun N Fun, please stop by the Wood Shop and see the progress, we will also be building wing ribs, and there will be a lot of Pietenpol talk. Also, if you can give a spare a few hours please PM me. As Terry said I have been a volunteer here for years, it is very rewarding. As Paul Poberezny use to say "you start coming for the airplanes and keep coming for the people" Skip -----Original Message----- >From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> >Sent: Mar 27, 2015 11:19 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build? > > >Did the Subject Line get your attention? I hope so. > >I spoke this afternoon to Skip Gadd, who is already down at Sun-N-Fun. He and his wife have gone down there for years helping set up. He has worked in the Hands On Workshops for most, if not all of that time. He has worked with many people such as Dick Navratil and (I think) Dave Aldrich from the forum. Typically they build Pietenpol parts, such as the ribs, the empennage, the fuselage, among others. I think last year they worked on floats for Dick's Sky Scout project. Well, this year they have no specific project to work on. So here is where you come in. > >If you have the materials for some phase of your build, but have not had the time, and can get the materials to Sun-N-Fun, they would like to help boost your project along by building some portion of your Pietenpol project either for you, or with you, if you have the time to be there. The Pietenpol has always been a popular project in the Hand On Woodworking Workshop, and they would like this year to be no different. These are experienced builders, so they would do a great job. They would like to make it a win-win for everyone. They get a project to work on, and you get a big boost to your project. > >If you have an interest, please either PM me, or you can email me at jarheadpilot82 (at) hotmail (dot) com. I can then get you Skip's contact info. Skip is having a little trouble with his internet service, so I told him that I would post it for him. > >I hope to hear from some lucky soul real soon! > >-------- >Semper Fi, > >Terry Hand >Athens, GA > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439971#439971 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: steel tube fuselage
Date: Mar 29, 2015
If I were building again, I'd do a steel tube fuse. I have a wood fuselage. If you can weld, or even tack and have a pro finish them up, it has many advantages to my mind. 1. It is lighter. Nobody can ever agree upon how much lighter because guys will weigh their wood and steel fuselages for comparison but usually in different stages of completion so the numbers are usually meaningless. There is consensus however that the steel is lighter, by how much exactly is a question. I've heard from five pounds to twenty pounds. Take your pick 2. If you can weld it is quicker 3. It is stronger, but who cares, the wood fuse is plenty strong 4. Possibly cheaper 5. Better in a crash 6. Much easier to add access door/doors if you're into that. 7. One could even say it's original since BP drew plans for it 8. You probably have more freedom about the type of tail wheel you can use since it's a stronger connection. I've heard of a few tail wheels ripping out of wood fuselages for various reasons, usually a rotted back end or a long spring type which gives way too much leverage under side load than the wood will take. Drawbacks?? 1. Lack of coolness/nostalgia factor when you look in the cockpit $.02 Douwe ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: Jack <jack(at)textors.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Agreed Bill BUT, a big challenge for me is coping the cuts well. For my mou nt and gear I went through a bunch of 4130... Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Mar 29, 2015, at 8:03 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" wrote: > > If I were building again, I=99d do a steel tube fuse. I have a wood fuselage. > > If you can weld, or even tack and have a pro finish them up, it has many a dvantages to my mind. > > 1. It is lighter. Nobody can ever agree upon how much lighter beca use guys will weigh their wood and steel fuselages for comparison but usuall y in different stages of completion so the numbers are usually meaningless. There is consensus however that the steel is lighter, by how much exactly i s a question. I=99ve heard from five pounds to twenty pounds. Take y our pick > 2. If you can weld it is quicker > 3. It is stronger, but who cares, the wood fuse is plenty strong > 4. Possibly cheaper > 5. Better in a crash > 6. Much easier to add access door/doors if you=99re into that. > 7. One could even say it=99s original since BP drew plans for i t > 8. You probably have more freedom about the type of tail wheel you c an use since it=99s a stronger connection. I=99ve heard of a fe w tail wheels ripping out of wood fuselages for various reasons, usually a r otted back end or a long spring type which gives way too much leverage under side load than the wood will take. > > > Drawbacks?? > > 1. Lack of coolness/nostalgia factor when you look in the cockpit > > > > $.02 > > Douwe > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: New running Corvair Built by Tim Hansen
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Congrats, Tim! Do you have any video to put up on YouTube? I want to hear that great sound! Awesome job, Tim!! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440009#440009 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Here is a link to a great discussion on risk management written by William a Wynne- http://flycorvair.net/2012/11/17/steel-tube-fuselages-safe-planes-and-250mph-accidents/ My steel tube fuselage built to the plans weighed 43.5 pounds, minus the gear. YMMV. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440010#440010 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
From: Scott Knowlton <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Terry, This is a great opportunity for comparison. My wooden airframe is in my shop with two coats of varnish. I haven't yet re-installed the torque tube, instruments, seat belts, gear legs or hardware. It is bare bones wood but the entire airframe is there. If you describe to me what your steel tube fuselage currently has in addition to the simple structure - (turtledeck, seats, firewall, controls, instruments) I'll weigh mine in exactly the same configuration as I re-assemble for my pre-cover inspection. (Mine is the long fuselage per the plans supplement.). Scott K. Burlington Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2015, at 1:53 PM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > > > Here is a link to a great discussion on risk management written by William a Wynne- > > http://flycorvair.net/2012/11/17/steel-tube-fuselages-safe-planes-and-250mph-accidents/ > > My steel tube fuselage built to the plans weighed 43.5 pounds, minus the gear. YMMV. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440010#440010 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Fuselage only. No gear, seats, turtledeck. Nada. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440013#440013 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: benjamin piet <benjaminpiet528(at)gmail.com>
Well I think next will looking into a good Tig set up and practice. Thank you all for advice. Ben W. On Mar 29, 2015 6:01 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" wrote: > If I were building again, I=99d do a steel tube fuse. I have a woo d > fuselage. > > > If you can weld, or even tack and have a pro finish them up, it has many > advantages to my mind. > > > 1. It is lighter. Nobody can ever agree upon how much lighter > because guys will weigh their wood and steel fuselages for comparison but > usually in different stages of completion so the numbers are usually > meaningless. There is consensus however that the steel is lighter, by ho w > much exactly is a question. I=99ve heard from five pounds to twent y pounds. > Take your pick > > 2. If you can weld it is quicker > > 3. It is stronger, but who cares, the wood fuse is plenty strong > > 4. Possibly cheaper > > 5. Better in a crash > > 6. Much easier to add access door/doors if you=99re into that . > > 7. One could even say it=99s original since BP drew plans for it > > 8. You probably have more freedom about the type of tail wheel you > can use since it=99s a stronger connection. I=99ve heard of a few tail wheels > ripping out of wood fuselages for various reasons, usually a rotted back > end or a long spring type which gives way too much leverage under side lo ad > than the wood will take. > > > Drawbacks?? > > > 1. Lack of coolness/nostalgia factor when you look in the cockpit > > > $.02 > > > Douwe > > * > =========== .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Corvair College #33 Update
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
For those of you considering attending Corvair College #33, William Wynne put an update out on changes that sound like it will make it an even better event- http://flycorvair.net/2015/03/29/corvair-college-33-relocated-to-grassroots-airport/ I believe that sign up ends tonight, so don't miss the deadline if you are thinking about going. I look forward to seeing this new location. It sounds great! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440022#440022 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build?
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
I am glad it all worked out for every one! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440023#440023 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
From: Scott Knowlton <flyingscott_k(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
Okay, my turtledeck is attached as are the combings ahead of the rear and fr ont pit and seats. I'll weigh mine at this stage and if you're able to wei gh yours at that point we could then make an apples to apples comparison onc e and for all between wood and steel. If not, I guess the mystery and the debate will continue. Scott Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2015, at 3:41 PM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > mail.com> > > Fuselage only. No gear, seats, turtledeck. Nada. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440013#440013 > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
I will try and do that when the time comes. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440027#440027 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Metal tube frames
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 29, 2015
I will also do my best to provide accurate weights at various stages for people to have more accurate data to compare.... Worked on the cabaine ftgs today. Always frustrating to do things again that I thought were finished but the end justifies the means. It was a beautiful day in the workshop...... Yes, people are what it is all about............. -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440031#440031 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy(at)nasa.gov>
Subject: Tim Hansen, Orient, OH Private Checkride, Cleveland,
OH March 2005
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Then gent that WW speaks of, Tim Hansen, visited Cleveland to finish up his private pilot rating at Burke Lakefront Airport here on the shores of Lake Erie in March of 2005. During one of Tim's evenings we went to see my Pietenpol together at my hangar and despite the 20 degree temperatures Tim poured over every detail of the Piet enpol. Later that year I saw Tim again at Brodhead so you could tell he was serious. Congratulations on your engine run Tim! Mike C. Ohio [cid:image001.jpg(at)01D06AD4.7E8CC4B0] [cid:image002.png(at)01D06AD4.7E8CC4B0] ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Four More Horsepower Added
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Good morning guys and gals, I was able to add four more horsepower to my Piet a week ago. Attached is a pic of how I did it. The bad news about adding horsepower is the added fuel burn and the exhaust emissions that go with it. Oh, and all the extra drag. I could keep going but I won't. We actually had an airshow at our airport on 3/21 and 3/22. The Thunderbirds were there and the horses you see are part of the ten Budweiser Clydesdale's that were there. Dang those things are big. Chris Tracy came down for the show and I was finally able to get him up in my plane for a decent ride. We had a blast and got to fly some close formation with his brother in his Pitts. Chris was grinning ear to ear. Sorry about the size but,,,,,,,, Hopefully this adds a smile to some faces today, Cheers all, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440040#440040 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/20150320_084145_resized_396.jpg ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Good news, The French Valley Piet that didn't make it to Brodhead last year has flown again. It flew on Sat, 3/28/15 after all the repairs were made. I understand that they are planning to attend the West Coast Piet Gathering on June 6th. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440042#440042 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5(at)comcast.net>
Subject: Re: engine failure
Date: Mar 30, 2015
That is good news!! Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AircamperN11MS Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure --> Good news, The French Valley Piet that didn't make it to Brodhead last year has flown again. It flew on Sat, 3/28/15 after all the repairs were made. I understand that they are planning to attend the West Coast Piet Gathering on June 6th. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440042#440042 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 30, 2015
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: engine failure
Which engine was it that had the engine failure? No one has said. Dan Helsper Loensloe Airfield Puryear TN -----Original Message----- From: AircamperN11MS <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org> Sent: Mon, Mar 30, 2015 1:33 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure Good news, The French Valley Piet that didn't make it to Brodhead last year has flown again. It flew on Sat, 3/28/15 after all the repairs were made. I understand that they are planning to attend the West Coast Piet Gathering on June 6th. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440042#440042 - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse Un/Subscription, Photoshare, and much much more: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - Forums! http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Four More Horsepower Added
From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Scott, Even though they have lined up for rides, I don't think they are going to fit in the front seat.....! -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440046#440046 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Dan, If you will reread William's post, you will see that they didn't have an engine failure as much as they had a carburetor failure. And a poorly designed gear geometry coupled with a poor decision making to continue a flight with a known rough running engine. And yes, it was a Corvair. But I sense you already had that figured out, but felt the need to ask. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440047#440047 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
I must add that the pilot did a wonderful job making it to an airport. He was over some VERY rough terrain when he experienced the rough engine. Had two people been in the plane, the outcome could have been much worse. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440048#440048 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: Louie Bakrevski <lupchob(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Did any body got the NTSB report on why did engine lost power. Did anybody took Carb apart and have report on why it lost power, so we don't make the same mistake. Or is this just a guess of the cause. Has anybody talk with the builders? Enqwering minds want to know? Louie Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:49 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > > Dan, > > If you will reread William's post, you will see that they didn't have an engine failure as much as they had a carburetor failure. And a poorly designed gear geometry coupled with a poor decision making to continue a flight with a known rough running engine. And yes, it was a Corvair. > > But I sense you already had that figured out, but felt the need to ask. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440047#440047 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Scott, I know you are friends with those guys, and I like them also. But just to be accurate, with hope that others may learn something, let me point out that the terrain that those guys we flying over that day, particularly the last 2/3s of the last leg were pretty flat, and are almost all farmland served by rotating irrigation systems which are usually on very flat ground. From their report: . Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the flight from Tucumcari, New Mexico to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying as far as Guymon, but the airplane was damaged on landing making it impossible for the airplane to continue any further. . To be fair, their first days of the trip covered 1,200 miles over very bad terrain. however on the last day they were already at the west Texas grasslands. Tucumcari NM and Guymon OK are only about 160 miles apart, most of what is between them is very flat Texas. The cities are connected in a dead straight line by a 4 lane highway, route 54. The halfway point is Dalhart TX, which has a large municipal airport, and the 3/4 mark is Stratford TX, which has a paved 3,000' airport right next to 54. . . I spoke to these guys at Oshkosh 72 hours later, and looked at their photos. They described to me that the plane was not running perfectly before this leg. But critically, I listened to the description of the last leg by the pilot, and he described having a long deteriorating condition on that leg, before he got to the 1/2 point. It is my belief that he was fixated on getting to the planned rendezvous with the ground crew at Guymon, and because of this he overflew the airports at Dalhart and Stratford. He may not have known about them, and that is why it is critical to know what is on the route. Either way, there was the highway, and it is far better to make a precautionary landing on a wide road than a forced one en route to an airport. Lesson: Once your plane is not running or flying right, your ability to develop an alternative plan, to visually see little airports, or consider a precautionary landing is greatly reduced. . . Scott, I agree he did a fair job landing, even though the plane ended up on it's back. How can I say that? because I did the weight and balance on the plane before it was covered, and I told them it would have a very aft CG, and the landing gear was too far back for a plane with brakes. They elected to ignore this. That was the mistake point that put the plane on it's back, not what the pilot was doing in Guymon. Many skilled pilots would have done the same thing, because the plane had the gear too far back. Lesson: When I privately point out that your gear is too far back, and you think I am kidding, I might later publicly use the example in hopes that some one else might learn from it. I hope when they rebuilt the plane that they corrected the wing position, but I am going to guess they did not. . . Before anyone gets upset about plain talk about a specific accident, let me point out the following: I know the builder; I saw the plane at several stages of the building, including in CA; I know the engine model very well, I know the airframe well; I personally spoke to the pilot after the accident; and I hold a degree in accident investigation from Embry-Riddle. These things don't make me better than anyone else, but they do qualify me to offer some intelligent commentary on the event. Scott knows these guys also, and also has good input to learn from. Almost no talk about accidents on the internet comes from personally informed people like Scott and I. There is something that could be gained here which is not available in most comments elsewhere. . . For the record, the issue was with the Carb, which is the same one that came on a Continental, so you might want to call it a carb failure, but it isn't really accurate nor informative to call it an engine failure. If there was a guy out there flying a continental who dismissed the potential to learn anything because he thought this was a Corvair problem, he is being foolish, because he is likely flying an identical carb. . If anyone would like to imply that a Corvair couldn't have made the flight, Please look at this month's Kitplanes, The Corvair powered KR-2S pictured at Chino CA, lives in Eastern PA, and was built by this guy: http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/27/kr-2s-at-700-hours-joe-horton/ It flew out and back in the same three day weekend. .ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440054#440054 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: weight and balance studying.
From: "dmcb84" <dmcb84(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
I am posting this because I would be one of those "boys who prefer a steel-tube fuselage". One that is "stress analyzed" and can easly meet the "requirements of the deparment of commerce". A flying and glider fuse, no door, no cutout, no widening, bare bones steel tube. [Rolling Eyes] ......yup. Honestly, it will just be fun to learn a new building process. With that said i would like to weld the center struts and wing fittings in place for simplicity/strength. This would necessitate some planning and i would like to start marking up the placement on the bench. I received a few articles from Mr. Doc Mosher. One of the articles was the weight and balance studys. After reading those articles, previously reading ac43.13, and CAM 18, I compared my numbers to a group from those articles. I have an idea as to placement of things, just wondering who else has compared to these articles. It took me a while tonight to wrap my head around removing and adding the weight of the engine, or even more confusing moving the wing around. If anyone could help me verify, the help would be greatly appreciated. If this is boring Im sorry. Some numbers/info.... Engine-corvair Fuse- 161" Engine mount-32" back of prop-firewall LE wing- 10" aft firewall Seatback- 71" aft firewall Pilot weight- 135lb (stickman- literally) This would put the CG about 17" back from the LE on moat that i compared. Thanks in advance if anyone can help verify. David McBride Rochester, NY dmcb84(at)hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440055#440055 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "taildrags" <taildrags(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 30, 2015
Substitute "Continental A65" for "Corvair" in the story of the French Valley Piet and you have the infamous nose-over of my airplane, NX41CC, on Veteran's Day in November of 2004. It was not an engine failure, it was a carburetor icing occurrence on a beautiful fall day. The precautionary landing came after loss of power with very little (or no) power remaining as the plane was put into a rough south Texas pasture resulted in stresses that overwhelmed a rough weld on one of the landing gear legs, which led to a collapse of the undercarriage and the wipeout. If there had been bystanders or nearby observers (non-pilots), they would every single one of them have told "News 8" that "the airplane's engine lost power, sputtered, cut out, and then the airplane went down". The news anchor would probably have closed the segment with something like, "the engine failure and crash are being investigated". The 'certified' Continental A65 engine did not fail. However, these stories grow legs and a life of their own, and the legends live on. If anyone cares to read more about this, I have some photos and text at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/incident/incident.html but my guess is that nobody wants to read about Continental "failures"... Corvair "failures" make for much better news. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440057#440057 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: weight and balance studying.
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
David, Terry Hand's project is nearly Identical to what you propose. If you search the archives and look at posts by "Jarheadpilot82" he has put up some info on it. It is what you propose with the only addition of a door in the front cockpit. You can see a photo of it at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/22/terry-hands-story-our-own-honor-flight/ Which is also a moving story about Terry's father who was a Seabee in WWII. . Without getting a calculator out, I will say your numbers look in the ball park. In another week or so I am going to have a sharp set of numbers for Terry's project fuse/mount/gear/engine, as we are going to have it on display at CC#33. You can fine tune your calculation from there. I will be glad to go over your numbers in comparative detail then. Also keep in mind that Ryan Mueller can assist with the CG program we wrote to derive the max pilot weight to stay inside the aft limit of any particular Pietenpol. Just a thought, If you are 135#, and thinking of welded cabanes, target a number like 15.5" with you in the plane, so that you can cover another pilot who might weigh a lot more in the plane. Running the calculation or letting Ryan do it will give exact numbers on this. . Having a Plane which in CG is actually "boring" compared to having one out the aft limit or with the gear too far back. Ryan and I did the project, and many people assisted, in hope that people would do exactly what you are doing, planning ahead. -ww, Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440061#440061 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Subject: Re: engine failure
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Bobka's Law, from the inimitable Chris Bobka, applies here: "If it doesn't sound right on the ground, it isn't likely to sound better in the air". Get-there-itis is a deadly disease and it will kill you. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Wynne Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:44 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure --> Scott, I know you are friends with those guys, and I like them also. But just to be accurate, with hope that others may learn something, let me point out that the terrain that those guys we flying over that day, particularly the last 2/3s of the last leg were pretty flat, and are almost all farmland served by rotating irrigation systems which are usually on very flat ground. From their report: . Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the flight from Tucumcari, New Mexico to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying as far as Guymon, but the airplane was damaged on landing making it impossible for the airplane to continue any further. . To be fair, their first days of the trip covered 1,200 miles over very bad terrain. however on the last day they were already at the west Texas grasslands. Tucumcari NM and Guymon OK are only about 160 miles apart, most of what is between them is very flat Texas. The cities are connected in a dead straight line by a 4 lane highway, route 54. The halfway point is Dalhart TX, which has a large municipal airport, and the 3/4 mark is Stratford TX, which has a paved 3,000' airport right next to 54. . . I spoke to these guys at Oshkosh 72 hours later, and looked at their photos. They described to me that the plane was not running perfectly before this leg. But critically, I listened to the description of the last leg by the pilot, and he described having a long deteriorating condition on that leg, before he got to the 1/2 point. It is my belief that he was fixated on getting to the planned rendezvous with the ground crew at Guymon, and because of this he overflew the airports at Dalhart and Stratford. He may not have known about them, and that is why it is critical to know what is on the route. Either way, there was the highway, and it is far better to make a precautionary landing on a wide road than a forced one en route to an airport. Lesson: Once your plane is not running or flying right, your ability to develop an alternative plan, to visually see little airports, or consider a precautionary landing is greatly reduced. . . Scott, I agree he did a fair job landing, even though the plane ended up on it's back. How can I say that? because I did the weight and balance on the plane before it was covered, and I told them it would have a very aft CG, and the landing gear was too far back for a plane with brakes. They elected to ignore this. That was the mistake point that put the plane on it's back, not what the pilot was doing in Guymon. Many skilled pilots would have done the same thing, because the plane had the gear too far back. Lesson: When I privately point out that your gear is too far back, and you think I am kidding, I might later publicly use the example in hopes that some one else might learn from it. I hope when they rebuilt the plane that they corrected the wing position, but I am going to guess they did not. . . Before anyone gets upset about plain talk about a specific accident, let me point out the following: I know the builder; I saw the plane at several stages of the building, including in CA; I know the engine model very well, I know the airframe well; I personally spoke to the pilot after the accident; and I hold a degree in accident investigation from Embry-Riddle. These things don't make me better than anyone else, but they do qualify me to offer some intelligent commentary on the event. Scott knows these guys also, and also has good input to learn from. Almost no talk about accidents on the internet comes from personally informed people like Scott and I. There is something that could be gained here which is not available in most comments elsewhere. . . For the record, the issue was with the Carb, which is the same one that came on a Continental, so you might want to call it a carb failure, but it isn't really accurate nor informative to call it an engine failure. If there was a guy out there flying a continental who dismissed the potential to learn anything because he thought this was a Corvair problem, he is being foolish, because he is likely flying an identical carb. . If anyone would like to imply that a Corvair couldn't have made the flight, Please look at this month's Kitplanes, The Corvair powered KR-2S pictured at Chino CA, lives in Eastern PA, and was built by this guy: http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/27/kr-2s-at-700-hours-joe-horton/ It flew out and back in the same three day weekend. .ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440054#440054 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Good morning All, I understood that the day of the flight started in Socorro New Mexico. I have flown that route and know that you must get to about 8000 feet to clear the mountains to the east. That is what I was referring to about the rough terrain. I don't know at what point the engine started running rough but just wanted to make comment that he did good to get it down at an airport. We all know that with a complete engine failure we won't be gliding very far under the best of conditions. That is all I meant. I made the first flight of the plane for these guys and I never felt the gear was too far back. Since I have flown the plane, the owners changed from a rudder bar and heel brakes to rudder pedals and toe brakes. I am sure the toe brakes added to the ability to apply more braking power then what was needed at the time of that landing. Hard to say since I was not there. As Oscar mentioned. Farm fields can put planes on their back as well. It is never just one thing that causes an accident. There is usually a chain of events that cause an accident or incident. Leave out just one of the links and the event probably would not have happened. I am just happy that there were no injury's and with a small amount of work, they are able to fly again. Yes, there are take away's that can be learned from each and every event. Whether it is a Piet or a Cessna 172 there is usually something to learn. Carry on everyone, Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440067#440067 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jack's new Piet
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet(at)sympatico.ca>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Stumbled across this video on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUwdF17HNQ Very Nice. BC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440068#440068 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: engine failure
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Jack, A similar rule we used to say was "it's better to be on the ground wishin' you were flyin', than to be flyin' wishin' you were on the ground." -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440072#440072 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jack's new Piet
From: "bender" <dude(at)twc.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Great video. got lost in it sitting here at work Jeff Faith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440079#440079 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jack's new Piet
From: "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright(at)emory.edu>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Bill Church wrote: > Stumbled across this video on Youtube: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUwdF17HNQ > > Very Nice. > > BC WOW! That is a great video! But more importantly -- Congratulations to Jack on a fantastic first flight! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440095#440095 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: "stearmandriver" <pwr2800(at)gmail.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Hey guys, long time lurker here. I would like to chime in on the old steel vs. wood if I may. I have been collecting steel tube for my Piet as well. Wood is very nice and safe, I just like working with steel as much as I do wood. I do see some comments about steel being cheaper. Please don't think this for a moment longer. If you go the 4130N route. (and by the way, you don't have to) It will almost double the cost of the fuselage to build maybe more. You can use a 1020 series of tube, like Piper, Taylorcraft, Boeing, and for that matter most of the classics used. 1026 will still cost more than a wood fuselage. It will be lighter and stronger and more crashworthy if the planets align and you crash "kinda hard". As far as guys saying "I cant weld", well you could'nt fly a tail dragger either when you first started.... Welding just takes a little practice. I TIG for fun, instead of playing golf. It does not take long to develop the skills. Gas welding is perfect for tube construction. Sets are relatively inexpensive. TIG is nice and clean but completely not required to build a fuselage. Back into my hole. Thanks for reading. Dave Hughes Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440114#440114 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Corvair College #33 Update
From: "David McBride" <dmcb84(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
Terry, Were you at barnwell for cc31? I cant remember if we met. So many great people at these events, with lots of sights, sounds and information to take in . Wish i was coming to this one. -------- David McBride Rochester, NY dmcb84(at)hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440126#440126 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Corvair College #33 Update
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Mar 31, 2015
David, I wrote this story, with a lot of photos, http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/18/pietenpol-builders-and-pilots-at-corvair-college-31/ Specifically about the Piet builders who were present at CC#31 at Barnwell last fall. It has lots of pictures of people who are regular contributors to this site. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440127#440127 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2015
From: danhelsper(at)aol.com
Subject: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
Mr. Fernando Risso from Argentina monitors this list. He is planning to build a Pietenpol, and has asked me off-list whether there will be any folks at Sun N Fun that own Pietenpols that he can talk with when he visits there? Please chime-in if you can. Dan Helsper Loensloe Airfield Puryear, TN ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: "womenfly2" <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 01, 2015
For a Steel tube fuselage I would gas weld, lower cost for the welding setup and easier for a beginner to learn. I would suggest you look at a DVD from TM Technologies, AKA: Kent White. He has a great video on 4130 Airframe Construction, plus you can rent the DVD's too. He also has great products that do work for aircraft building. I love the Meco Torch he has for welding Fuselages and Aluminum brazing & welding fuel tanks, sheet metal and such. He DVD's are very educational, will worth the time to watch. Just a miss conception here, Piper, Taylorcraft, & Boeing did use 1020 tubing but only in the up rights and diagonal bracing, basically in low load areas. All the longerons were 4130 and any high load tubes were too e.g. wing support structures, landing gears, motor mounts, etc. I say ... do it. My 5 worth, WF2 -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440136#440136 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Jack's new Piet
From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld(at)lacity.org>
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Congratulations Jack for the completion and first flight of your beautiful looking Piet. I watched the video during lunch yesterday. Whoever did that did a great job. May you have many wonderful hours flying your machine. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440140#440140 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Builders, Small but important correction: Many pre-war light planes were built of 1025 tubing, not 1020. there is a difference in strength, but mostly I wanted to point that out because I didn't want anyone to read it and get started shopping and mistakenly buy 1020 tubing because it is cheap. It isn't up for the job. And by the time you find 1025, you might as well buy 4130. There is less than 50 pounds of tubing in a Piet, including waste cut off. The average price of 4130 is less than $10 a pound from aircraft spruce. $500 for the tubing in a fuselage isn't a fortune, and choosing to try to save money there is poor judgment. It is a myth that 1025 is significantly easier to weld; If you could only weld one, but couldn't do another that was 10% harder, you need a lot more practice because that isn't an acceptable margin of skill for welds that fly Start with a tig, learn the skill, invest in yourself. If you don't have the money, go back to wood as a material. First time gas welded fuselages often have poor fitting attachments, and the same weldor would have done a much better job with a tig, even a cheap one. Our own plane, the Wagabond started life as a 1964 Piper PA-22-108. It was the 10th to last Piper ever built at Lockhaven, Were 50,000 steel tube fuselages were gas welded. The welds are magnificent on it, done by people who all lost their jobs the following week. That kind of gas welding takes longer to learn than tig welding with the advancements of auto helmets and superimposed HF for starting. More stories on welding: http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/23/cc28-last-call-for-motor-mounts-etc-2/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440144#440144 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jack <fastnaught(at)windstream.net>
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Dan, I will be at Sun N Fun all week. I'm an aircraft judge and he can look me up at the judges area behind the antique type tent. I'll be glade to share wit h him all little that I know=F0=9F=98=9C Jack Sent from my iPad > On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:28 AM, danhelsper(at)aol.com wrote: > > Mr. Fernando Risso from Argentina monitors this list. He is planning to bu ild a Pietenpol, and has asked me off-list whether there will be any folks a t Sun N Fun that own Pietenpols that he can talk with when he visits there? P lease chime-in if you can. > > Dan Helsper > Loensloe Airfield > Puryear, TN > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Hofmann <jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com>
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
Date: Apr 01, 2015
I will be in the type club tent all week and will also be doing a Pietenpol forum for those wanting to build. I will post the times soon. Best, -john- > On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:09 AM, Jack wrote: > > Dan, > I will be at Sun N Fun all week. I'm an aircraft judge and he can look me up at the judges area behind the antique type tent. I'll be glade to share with him all little that I know=F0=9F=98=9C > Jack > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:28 AM, danhelsper(at)aol.com wrote: > >> Mr. Fernando Risso from Argentina monitors this list. He is planning to build a Pietenpol, and has asked me off-list whether there will be any folks at Sun N Fun that own Pietenpols that he can talk with when he visits there? Please chime-in if you can. >> >> Dan Helsper >> Loensloe Airfield >> Puryear, TN >> >> >> ======================== >> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ======================== >> cs.com >> ======================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ======================== >> > > <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
Date: Apr 01, 2015
I will be in the wood workshop all week. We will be making ribs and tailfeat hers Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2015, at 10:19 AM, John Hofmann wrot e: > > I will be in the type club tent all week and will also be doing a Pietenpo l forum for those wanting to build. I will post the times soon. > > Best, > -john- > > >> On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:09 AM, Jack wrote: >> >> Dan, >> I will be at Sun N Fun all week. I'm an aircraft judge and he can look me up at the judges area behind the antique type tent. I'll be glade to share w ith him all little that I know=F0=9F=98=9C >> Jack >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 1, 2015, at 6:28 AM, danhelsper(at)aol.com wrote: >>> >>> Mr. Fernando Risso from Argentina monitors this list. He is planning to b uild a Pietenpol, and has asked me off-list whether there will be any folks a t Sun N Fun that own Pietenpols that he can talk with when he visits there? P lease chime-in if you can. >>> >>> Dan Helsper >>> Loensloe Airfield >>> Puryear, TN >>> >>> >>> ========= >>> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >>> ========= >>> cs.com >>> ========= >>> matronics.com/contribution >>> ========= >>> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" class="">htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> class="">http://forums.matronics.com >> class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
From: "jarheadpilot82" <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Skip Gadd is already there and will be there for the entire time working with Ben (I assume) in the Hands On Woodworking Area. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440161#440161 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
From: "William Wynne" <WilliamTCA(at)aol.com>
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Dan, Since Mr. Risso is traveling 5,000 miles, I would like to see if we can get him a flight in a Piet if possible. I Don't know if Ben or any of the other SnF gang will be flying in, and that airshow is really a restrictive setting for a demonstration. As an alternative, if it can be put together, We will have Bob Lester's Piet at Corvair College #33 90 miles up the road at the Eustis airport, which is the perfect setting for a Piet flight. . Bob's Plane is the last picture at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/18/pietenpol-builders-and-pilots-at-corvair-college-31/ At Barnwell he gave a number of flights, and his plane is powerful enough to safely pull the weight of any passenger who can fit into the front pit. Some of the people he flew at at Barnwell were 260+ pounds, and the plane still has a very strong climb rate. He has a first class engine with a 5th bearing and an MA3-spa arrangement. . Normally we need to have everyone headed to a college sign up, but in the case of Mr. Risso, Grace and I will be glad to have him as a personal guest. If any of you guys are going to be his guide/driver in Florida, we will be glad to have you for the day also. The College is a little before SnF, but if can be made to work, I will coordinate stuff on our end. If one of you guys would like to put this together, email me off list at WilliamTCA(at)aol.com. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440162#440162 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2015
From: Bill Budgell <rfbudgell(at)rogers.com>
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
My piper drawings from the factory show 1025 mild steel tube threw out the complete aircraft right up to PA-18 cub =C2- From: womenfly2 <Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 7:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel tube fuselage For a Steel tube fuselage I would gas weld, lower cost for the welding setu p and easier for a beginner to learn. I would suggest you look at a DVD from TM Technologies, AKA: Kent White. He has a great video on 4130 Airframe Construction, plus you can rent the DVD 's too. He also has great products that do work for aircraft building. I lo ve the Meco Torch he has for welding Fuselages and Aluminum brazing & weldi ng fuel tanks, sheet metal and such. He DVD's are very educational, will wo rth the time to watch. Just a miss conception here, Piper, Taylorcraft, & Boeing did use 1020 tubi ng but only in the up rights and diagonal bracing, basically in low load ar eas. All the longerons were 4130 and any high load tubes were too e.g. wing support structures, landing gears, motor mounts, etc. I say ... do it. My 5=C3=82=C2=A2 worth, WF2 -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440136#440136 S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: "stearmandriver" <pwr2800(at)gmail.com>
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Thanks for the civil replies to my ramblings! I have all the drawings for early Pipers and the A75N1 from Boeing. I must have missed the 4130N for the high stress areas. Absolutely correct on 1020 vs. 1025. TIG welding is so precise and enjoyable for me, but I still think a beginning welder is well served by learning puddle control with a gas setup. A good gas welder will be an excellent TIG welder once the myriad of subtleties are learned. I think gas welding is a great training tool for people wanting to get started with TIG. Best Regards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440170#440170 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2015
Subject: Re: steel tube fuselage
From: Michael Conkling <jmconkling(at)gmail.com>
Hello Folks, When my TIG instructor asked about what welding experience I did have, I told him it was mainly gas welding & brazing on bicycle frames -- His response was " all you need to do is make smaller circles..." Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 4:13 PM, stearmandriver wrote: > > Thanks for the civil replies to my ramblings! I have all the drawings for > early Pipers and the A75N1 from Boeing. I must have missed the 4130N for > the high stress areas. Absolutely correct on 1020 vs. 1025. TIG welding is > so precise and enjoyable for me, but I still think a beginning welder is > well served by learning puddle control with a gas setup. A good gas welder > will be an excellent TIG welder once the myriad of subtleties are learned. > I think gas welding is a great training tool for people wanting to get > started with TIG. > > Best Regards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440170#440170 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 01, 2015
From: Yahoo! Account Service <skipgadd(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
Yes, I will be here all week in the Hands On Woodworking Area, just across the street from the International Welcome Tent. Ben and Jack will also be there and Piet people usually drop by all the time. If Mr. Risso can make it by I'm sure he will get lots of Piet talk, and we will make him feel welcome. Skip -----Original Message----- >From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> >Sent: Apr 1, 2015 12:46 PM >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun? > > >Skip Gadd is already there and will be there for the entire time working with Ben (I assume) in the Hands On Woodworking Area. > >-------- >Semper Fi, > >Terry Hand >Athens, GA > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440161#440161 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Ben Charvet <bencharvet(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun?
Date: Apr 01, 2015
If you hang around a while we will put you to work! Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:10 PM, Yahoo! Account Service wrote: > > > Yes, I will be here all week in the Hands On Woodworking Area, just across the street from the International Welcome Tent. Ben and Jack will also be there and Piet people usually drop by all the time. If Mr. Risso can make it by I'm sure he will get lots of Piet talk, and we will make him feel welcome. > Skip > > -----Original Message----- >> From: jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com> >> Sent: Apr 1, 2015 12:46 PM >> To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet owners at Sun N Fun? >> >> >> Skip Gadd is already there and will be there for the entire time working with Ben (I assume) in the Hands On Woodworking Area. >> >> -------- >> Semper Fi, >> >> Terry Hand >> Athens, GA >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440161#440161 > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Apr 02, 2015
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering June 6, 2015
Hello everyone!=C2-=C2- It is almost time for this year's West Coast Pi etenpol Gathering.=C2- It will be held June 6th at Frazier Lake Airpark j ust north of Hollister CA.=C2-=C2-We have a great time and I'm hearing rumors that a few Pietenpols that have not attended before are making plans to attend.=C2- Come out and join the fun.=C2- Bring your Pietenpol, "o ther" airplane, drive in, walk in... or whatever other transportation suits you.=C2- Please see the attached Info sheet in PDF format for all the details. We look forward to seeing everyone there! Mike GroahNX414MV JVBERi0xLjUNCiW1tbW1DQoxIDAgb2JqDQo8PC9UeXBlL0NhdGFsb2cvUGFnZXMgMiAwIFIvTGFu Zyhlbi1VUykgL1N0cnVjdFRyZWVSb290IDI3IDAgUi9NYXJrSW5mbzw8L01hcmtlZCB0cnVlPj4+ Pg0KZW5kb2JqDQoyIDAgb2JqDQo8PC9UeXBlL1BhZ2VzL0NvdW50IDEvS2lkc1sgMyAwIFJdID4+ DQplbmRvYmoNCjMgMCBvYmoNCjw8L1R5cGUvUGFnZS9QYXJlbnQgMiAwIFIvUmVzb3VyY2VzPDwv Rm9udDw8L0YxIDUgMCBSL0YyIDE4IDAgUi9GMyAyMSAwIFI+Pi9FeHRHU3RhdGU8PC9HUzcgNyAw IFIvR1M4IDggMCBSPj4vWE9iamVjdDw8L0ltYWdlMTAgMTAgMCBSL0ltYWdlMTEgMTEgMCBSL0lt YWdlMTIgMTIgMCBSL0ltYWdlMTMgMTMgMCBSL0ltYWdlMTQgMTQgMCBSL0ltYWdlMTUgMTUgMCBS L0ltYWdlMTYgMTYgMCBSL0ltYWdlMTcgMTcgMCBSPj4vUHJvY1NldFsvUERGL1RleHQvSW1hZ2VC L0ltYWdlQy9JbWFnZUldID4+L0Fubm90c1sgOSAwIFIgMjAgMCBSXSAvTWVkaWFCb3hbIDAgMCA2 MTIgNzkyXSAvQ29udGVudHMgNCAwIFIvR3JvdXA8PC9UeXBlL0dyb3VwL1MvVHJhbnNwYXJlbmN5 L0NTL0RldmljZVJHQj4+L1RhYnMvUy9TdHJ1Y3RQYXJlbnRzIDA+Pg0KZW5kb2JqDQo0IDAgb2Jq DQo8PC9GaWx0ZXIvRmxhdGVEZWNvZGUvTGVuZ3RoIDI2NDMyPj4NCnN0cmVhbQ0KeJzsfVvPZbdx 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March 18, 2015 - April 02, 2015

Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-oc