RV-Archive.digest.vol-aa
April 27, 1990 - October 25, 1991
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
Matt,
I have seen the "testing" installation on Van's RV-6A. They
have modified the right elevator to have a trim tab also. It is
driven from a rocker switch in the panel. It isn't the most convenient,
but, like Mr. Smith said "yea, we're just playin' around with it." This
was back in August/October '89, so...
I just realized that I don't think we subscribed to the RV-ator for this
year, we just bought back issues. I gotta go do that, especially if they
have info on electric trim! Yow, excuse me, gotta go make a phone call...
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re:Electric *FLAPS* and trim... |
> Speaking of the last RVator, how about the Electric Trim, huh? I had already
> went down to a local aircraft slavage yard and picked up a Cessna motor for
> $140.00!! I think I'll go for the Van's solution, though. The 3+ lbs can
> make a big difference. Also, it looks like it is much smaller than the
> Cessna's.
>
> Has anyone seen a actual electric flap installation on an RV-4?
>
> Matt Dralle
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > I have seen the "testing" installation on Van's RV-6A. They
> > have modified the right elevator to have a trim tab also. It is
> > driven from a rocker switch in the panel. It isn't the most convenient,
> > but, like Mr. Smith said "yea, we're just playin' around with it." This
> > was back in August/October '89, so...
> >
> > I just realized that I don't think we subscribed to the RV-ator for this
> > year, we just bought back issues. I gotta go do that, especially if they
> > have info on electric trim! Yow, excuse me, gotta go make a phone call...
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
>
Okay, so I can't type! I've had a hard time getting this list to work right
today! :-) I ment to say the electric flap drive system as seen in the
last RVator.
I have some interesting thoughts on the Electric trim as well as the circuit
Paul Stafford mentioned. I'm running out of day here so I will post a long
summery on the trim when I get back. Suffice to say it's a lot cooler than
Van's and I think it will work a lot better in the end.
Lastly, for those that don't already subscribe to the RVator - DO IT! For
8 bucks or what ever, there are some really good things to read in there. All
of the new product announcments alown are worth the cover price!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | m15235(at)mwvm.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Forwarding "Project status and questions" |
Jim
When i did my HS i used a metal jig. In any case i beleive i had
a bit more than 1/2" clearance between it and the tip rib. In fact it
may have been over an inch. I don't think its too important as long as
its stable in the jig. One embarrassment i had was in riveting the nut
and washer inside the HS.
BTW instead of using solid rivets to attach the aft HS rib flanges to
spar using cherry blind rivets allows you to leave it open for easier
bucking and inpection later. This also applies to VS.
I plan to leave the manual trim. I seems as though it will have a nice
precise adjustment with the verier control he gives you. The stock
control on the -4 does not have the vernier feature i believe.
*
* Chris
*** -----------
*** Forwarded note from Jim Harriger, sent 04/27/90 at 13:09:01...
*** -----------
(5.59/foobar3.cfv1.4)
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 90 10:00 PDT
From: jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger)
<9004271532.AA24006(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Project status and questions
Hi folks:
I (in partnership with another gentleman) am building an
RV-6(A? we haven't decided yet.) We have just started, we have the
rear and forward spars for the horizontal stab. built and are begin-
ning to put the ribs on and jig for the skinning. We haven't made
the engine decision, but we are real hopeful for a mazda conversion
to be ready by the time we need to make the decision.
Quesitons:
we would like to replace the factory standard elevator trim
with an electric trim system, using a MAC servo and a hat switch
on the stick. question is, is a backup system necessary? is the plane
still flyable witht he trim tab stuck at one limit or another? how
to connect the backup system without overloading the servo? i know
that Van's RV-6A demo has electric trim, but it is in testing config-
uration; they've got one trim tab on each elevator, left one manual
and the right one electric. this seems a little overboard for just a
backup:-).
a more immediate question: in the manual, the picture of the
ends of the stab. jig looks like this:
| |
| |
| |
| 4x4 | _______ a 2x4, it looks like
| | /
the bolt___ | |___
\ | | |
---|-------|--|-|!
| | | |!
| | | |!
| | | |!
| | | |! ________ tip rib
| | | |!/
| | | |!
| | | |!
| | | |!
| | | |!
| | | |!
| | | |! _____rear spar
| | | |! /
| | | -----------------------------
| | | -----------------------------
| | |
___________________________________________
|
| 4x4
|
____________________________________________
the gap between the 2x4 vertical and the tip rib looks like about 1/4"
in the drawing expansion in the manual. problem is the skin hangs over
the tip rib by 1/2" at this point. how have other builders built this
part of the jig? i have left out the 2x4 for now, and it looks like
it will work just fine, but i was wondering if i had missed something
important.
well that's all for now ( but i'm sure that "i gotta million
of 'em!"). thanks for any help anyone can shed on this.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
uunet!littlei!jdh | Jim Harriger |AMA# 476153
jdh(at)synchro.intel.com | Intel uSystems Oper. |AOPA# 940488
(503) 696-2832(w) 642-9412(h) | Hillsboro, OR |PP-ASEL, 125+ hrs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
I finished my rear HS spar on saturday and spent most of my time sunday
building the HS-610 and HS614 spar strips for the front HS spar. I am using
the tabletop-type jig, since it allows for more working space than my work
bench. I can also lay out all the parts for assemble on it before I put
them together. I kept it level by screwing big bolts into each of the legs
at the bottom. This allows me to adjust the height of each leg individualy.
I hope to finish the front spar in the next couple of days, but with midterms
coming up, it may be slow working for the next few days.
Chris Krieg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ogden%cadillac.cad.mcc.com(at)mcc.com (Deene Ogden) |
| Subject: | Tony Bengelis' RV-6 progress |
Since I just got the latest posting to this mail-list, it reminded me
that you guys might be interested in Tony's progress (for those who don't
know Tony, he is the writer/prolific builder of EAA Sport Aviation Magazine
fame). He has been featuring his RV-6 project in his latest articles.
I just returned from his house (he lives about 2 miles from my office in
North Austin). There was about 5 or 6 other RV-6 builders already there
to inspect the results of Tony's application of final primer. He was
trying out one of the new low pressure spray gun rigs. The results were
impressive. He used less than one quart cup of mixed paint (DuPont Variprime)
to cover both wing panels. The overspray was minimal and the application
rate uniform and very controllable.
Tony has completed all construction and will put on the final topcoat of
paint tomorrow. He should be ready for assembly at the Georgetown Airport
by the end of the week. He is using a 0-320 160 hp engine and has a full
panel. He commented recently that he tried to use all the extra accessories
and equipment he has accumulated during the contruction of the last eight
(he is a fast builder) homebuilts.
Two of the builders were there to try to figure out what to do about the
wrong dimension shown on the horizontal stab drawings. The lower main
spar carry-thru piece (1"x1" 6061 angle) has a too short flange length
if built by the plans. If the part is already built, accomadation can
made in the spacer for attachment to the fuselage. If your just starting,
then the flange should be cut longer that the plans show.
We were all commenting how important it is to talk to earlier builders
to pick up the latest on small problems that inevitability show up in
plans.
Deene.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ogden%cadillac.cad.mcc.com(at)mcc.com (Deene Ogden) |
| Subject: | Re: Tony Bengelis' RV-6 progress |
>In regard to the lower spar carry through, did they crrect this in later
>plans or is my HS built wrong already?
>
>chris
I think even the latest plans still show the wrong dimension. I'll
have to talk to one of the builders to get the details. I think there
are a couple of easy fixes that can be used when attaching the stab
to the fuselage. So I wouldn't worry too much about it right now.
Deene.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Doug Medema Newest Member Of rv-list... |
Welcome Doug Medema to the rv-list!
Doug - Please post a little bit about yourself and your RV plans...
-Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Back Issues of rv-list Available... |
I have copies of all postings to the rv-list on file. If any one is interested
in the set please let me know.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
| Subject: | Back Issues of rv-list Available... |
Matt,
i would be interested in the archives. Is is something that can
reasonably be mailed, or do we need to arrange something else?
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
well, since there has been almost no traffic here lately, I thought
I'd post an update on my RV-6.
I finished the HS skeletal structure last week. I finally got my hand rivet
squeezer and boy does it make riveting easier!! That gun is so noisy and
easy to mess up a rivet if it slips.
I reprimed the scratches that I got from riveting all the pieces together
and trimmed the skins to make them ready to put on the HS skeleton.
that's about it for now. With a midterm coming up, I probably won't get to
skinning the HS until this weekend. Everything has gone well up until now
so here's hoping the skinning goes well too.
BTW - How much of priming did/are each of you doing?? Are you doing all the
pieces or just the ones that absolutely needed it??
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Just out of curiosity, what made each of you decide on an RV??
Was it the metal vs. fiberglass question?? or what was your deciding factor?
I personally like working with metals. All that sanding and filling and
filling and sanding does not appeal to me. I think I would rather spend
more time with a riveter in my hand than a sanding block.
The RV also seems to have an outstanding reputation among homebuilders.
There are so many RV builders in my area, that I knew I could find some
support somewhere locally.
Comments?? Opinions??
chris
krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rpslmc!laurens!lackerma(at)gargoyle.uchicago.edu (lauren ackerman) |
This is in response to chris kreig's question of why build an
RV versus other models. Here is my list of reasons.
1) There are a lot of them...ie a proven design.
2) The metal plane connected with rivets is appealing because
a) Welding is a technique that requires much experience...the only good
way to test a weld is by breaking it or xraying it.
b) Plastic planes are easy to get allergic to, melt and decay in
the sun and have a limited color selection. Also the crashworthiness
of plastic still remains to be proven.
c) It is hard to go fast in cloth planes and they need a welded superstructure.
3) It uses a real airplanne engine instead of a conversion product.
4) The RV has a nice speed ratio.
5) I think I can build one!
6) The price is reasonable.
7) I do not think it will kill me!
laurens ackerman
lackerma(at)rpslmc.edu
h: 708 251 0635
o: 312 942 5893
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New guy on RV mailing list |
Hi! I guess I'm the newest person on the RV mailing list.
I'm an RV-6A wannabuild but haven't started yet. I promised
my wife I would finish our house (which is currently under
construction) before I started building the plane.
Since I live in the Seattle area, I did go down to North
Plains and visited the factory (which had just recently
moved at the time) and sat in the prototype -6A. I fit,
but barely!! I'm 6'6" tall and would have to use a thinner
seat cushion as well as move the seat down right to the
floor. I'm hoping the new canopy being developed for the
Nigerian government will be availble when I build. Overall
I thought the factory looked pretty good, all things con-
sidered.
One interesting note in the last Sport Aviation is John
Roncz's comments about downward visibility from most low
wing homebuilts. He is designing his with swept forward
wings to overcome this. Looking at the picture of the
-6 in my office tends to support his point. Anyone have
any comments about downward visibility in the RV's,
especially the -6?
I'm looking forward to reading the messages from the group.
Keep posting those progress reports -- the more detailed,
the better from my point of view.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
> Subject: RV status
> Status: R
>
>
> well, since there has been almost no traffic here lately, I thought
> I'd post an update on my RV-6.
>
> I finished the HS skeletal structure last week. I finally got my hand rivet
> squeezer and boy does it make riveting easier!! That gun is so noisy and
> easy to mess up a rivet if it slips.
> I reprimed the scratches that I got from riveting all the pieces together
> and trimmed the skins to make them ready to put on the HS skeleton.
>
> that's about it for now. With a midterm coming up, I probably won't get to
> skinning the HS until this weekend. Everything has gone well up until now
> so here's hoping the skinning goes well too.
>
> BTW - How much of priming did/are each of you doing?? Are you doing all the
> pieces or just the ones that absolutely needed it??
>
> Chris Krieg
>
I have elected to lightly prime all inside skin surfaces and to heavly prime
all spars and load carrying members. When I built me tail, I was only going to
prime the minimum parts that HAD to have it in hopes of saving weight. I wish
now that I had primed the skins on the tail. I'm conserned enough about it
that I think that I will probably build another tail kit. Actually, the
truth is that it came out cruddy and I want to build another, but the prime
thing is a good excuse...
As far as status, I have the tail done (with electric trim), the left wing
is pretty much done, and the right wing is about 2/3 - 3/4 done. I hope
to start the fuse about mid Summer. I am actually rather looking forward
to building the fuse jig. Does anyone have any good insite here?
Matt Dralle
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
> Subject: RV query
> Status: R
>
>
> Just out of curiosity, what made each of you decide on an RV??
> Was it the metal vs. fiberglass question?? or what was your deciding factor?
>
> I personally like working with metals. All that sanding and filling and
> filling and sanding does not appeal to me. I think I would rather spend
> more time with a riveter in my hand than a sanding block.
> The RV also seems to have an outstanding reputation among homebuilders.
> There are so many RV builders in my area, that I knew I could find some
> support somewhere locally.
>
> Comments?? Opinions??
>
> chris
> krieg
>
I would have to echo most of these as my reason for building and a couple
more biggies. After I got a ride in an RV-4 I was totally sold. If any
one you know is on the fence about starting an RV just get 'um to take a ride
in one. They will probably sell there wife to get a kit. And the other reason
is the cost/value of the RV kits. The next kit in terms of preformance is
almost $20k. That's a big reason to stick with Van's plane's if you ask me. I
really get the feeling he isn't trying to gouge me - that's refreshing in the
aircraft industry, you know?
If you fly it, you'll buy it...
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
| Subject: | project status of RV-6 #20252 |
Hi Folks,
A status update on our RV-6, we have fitted the skins to the
HS and drilled the rivet holes. We spent last night countersiking the
holes in one skin. It didn't go as well as we had hoped, we had problems
with the cutter chattering in the holes and leaving no-quite circular
countersinks. Has anyone else out there countersunk their HS skins, or is
everybody opting for the dimpling method? We have described our problem to
our technical advisor this morning and he says that its not something to
replace the skin for, but that we might try an electric drill instead of the
air one (something about less torque and easier speed control?, funny i've
always had better luck controlling the speed of air drills. oh well, he
probably knows best)
About priming: we are priming everything inside, except rivets. we
decided that we'd take a small weight penalty to keep the thing from
corroding later.
Special for Matt: how did you do the electric trim? did you
design it yourself or is there a place to get help? do you have a backup
system? why is my RVATOR subscription not straightened out yet?... oops, wrong
person. :-) sorry, got on question streak there...
Another question for this august body: we started out saying we were
going to build an rv-6a, but now we are leaning the other way, pretty much
for esthetic (sp?) reasons. Anyone have any options to push us one way
of the other?
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: project status of RV-6 #20252 |
> A status update on our RV-6, we have fitted the skins to the
> HS and drilled the rivet holes. We spent last night countersiking the
> holes in one skin. It didn't go as well as we had hoped, we had problems
> with the cutter chattering in the holes and leaving no-quite circular
> countersinks. Has anyone else out there countersunk their HS skins, or is
> everybody opting for the dimpling method? We have described our problem to
> our technical advisor this morning and he says that its not something to
> replace the skin for, but that we might try an electric drill instead of the
> air one (something about less torque and easier speed control?, funny i've
> always had better luck controlling the speed of air drills. oh well, he
> probably knows best)
>
I've got a cheap, 1/4 inch, single speed (2500rpm) Black and Decker drill
that I use for all of my rivet hole drilling and counter sinking. It is
a very light drill and the high speed assures a clean hole. I have used it for
counter sinking a great deal of holes and have had little or no problem.
Here are some tips on using a counter sinker, though...
1) GET A GOOD ONE! Spare no expense when you buy one. Don't
get one from ATS Tools (or any other tools for that matter.)
US Tools make a really nice one that holds it's depth very
well. I have used a single piece of .032 on the top wing
skins and counter sunk the whole thing - no problem.
2) Make sure you arn't counter sinking too deep.
3) Make sure your counter sink 'bit' is SHARP! It sounds like
you have a dull bit, and maybe are turning it too fast.
2500rpm should work nicely, though.
4) Make sure you get your shoulder into the action. A good tight
fit between your counter sinker rim and the metal it very
important.
5) Experiment on some other metal until you are happy with the
holes you are getting.
>
> About priming: we are priming everything inside, except rivets. we
> decided that we'd take a small weight penalty to keep the thing from
> corroding later.
>
> Special for Matt: how did you do the electric trim? did you
> design it yourself or is there a place to get help? do you have a backup
> system? Why is my RVATOR subscription not straightened out yet?...ops, wrong
> person. :-) sorry, got on question streak there...
>
I have mounted the Mac Trim motor in the Elevator, making a special bracket
to hold the servo. Also, I made a special control arm that doesn't stick down
into the wind *at all*. A small hatch on the bottom of the Elevator allows
access.
I had designed a special unit called the Governor that makes the Mac Trim
usable on an RV. The problem with the generic Mac Trim is that its control
arm moves very fast - really too fast for small trim changes on the RVs.
With the Governor, the speed of the servo is controled with a pot as well as
some switching to aid in control response.
The Governor really makes the trim work nice on the RV installation. I am
getting ready to send a Governor up to Van's Aircraft for Van to test in his
plane. Maybe he'll do a wirte up on it in the RVator.
I have a nice brochure available on the Governor and will send to anyone
interested.
I can make available my plans for Electric trim installation if anyone is
interested, too. Those would be free...
> Another question for this august body: we started out saying we were
> going to build an rv-6a, but now we are leaning the other way, pretty much
> for esthetic (sp?) reasons. Anyone have any options to push us one way
> of the other?
Well, I'm an RV-4 man, myself. But I would go with the tail dragger (RV-6),
just 'cause it looks more like an airplane! :-)
Matt Dralle
Matronics
> Jim Harriger
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: project status of RV-6 #20252 |
I'd be interested in seeing the electric trim installation. The governor
sounds really good.
I finally got (due to my slowness) the last RVator and lo and behold, who's
wing do we see?? Why, it's yours.
I also liked the electric flap system and am considering putting it on my
RV-6A when I get that far. Even in the spacious -6, it is hard to go to
full flaps with 2 on board, plus you kinda have to do a backhand push to
get full flaps. I'm a piper flyer now, and like the manual flaps, but in
the Archer, the flap lever is placed where you can get full travel a lot
easier.
I'll just have to wait and see how Van's does with it.
chri krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)grafix.iastate.edu (Martin R. Calsyn) |
| Subject: | RV status and miscellany |
Hello! - just thought I'd jump in and let everyone know where I'm at
with my RV project. I actually just got the plans three weeks ago, and
then took off on a two-week vacation. Contrary to the previously posted
list, I'm building a 6A. Actually it looks as if Quent Johnson and I
will be building our units in parallel - Quent and I both work for Iowa
State University. I have space and no tools - Quent has tools and no
space.
I'm sold on electric trim and would like info on the MacTrim/Governor
setup - need an SASE or anything, Matt? I'll also be looking into
electric flaps but its a bit early for me to worry about that.
I have another unique construction problem - I'm 6'7" tall with a 39.5"
torso measurement. That's over the 37.25" measurement Van uses.
Although there's some leeway in seat-pan height and seat-pad thickness I
still don't want to put my head through the canopy the first time the
ride gets rough. Van has indicated that a special fixed-windshield
split canopy may be available which allows for 2-3" additional
clearance. This is to satisfy the needs of a single large-quantity
order, though Van is considering making it available to others with
clearance problems - its still 6-12 months away. It may not be
neccessary after all - Van indicated that a 6'6"-er fit fine in the 6 at
Sun & Fun.
In any case, I plan to try on an RV-6 for size at Oshkosh. How many
others in this group will be at Oshkosh? I'll also be trying to get a
handle on instrument, engine, etc., prices so I can get the
sticker-shock over with now.
Why did I pick the RV-6? Past notes have pretty much said it all but in
no particular order: reasonable price; I like riveted alum construction
(as noted earlier, to some extent bad construction is more
visible than in welded frames and I just can't get behind composites
yet); I believe I can complete the kit; and most important to me (and my
family) I do not believe this plane will bite.
Why the 6A? Thats harder. Yes, I followed all of the tail vs. tricycle
arguments in rec.aviation but I'm still more comfortable in a tricycle
setup. I learned in Cessna equipment. I do believe I haven't flow
enough variety of aircraft. Like everyone, I fly less than I want to,
but more than I can afford.
Martin R. Calsyn martin(at)grafix.iastate.edu
Project Vincent ga.mrc(at)isumvs.bitnet
Iowa State University -- Ames, IA 50010
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <wentzdon(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Hi group. I purchased my tail kit about 2 years ago, but
due to the usual list of excuses (new home, new kids, etc.)
I haven't started yet. I have been over to look at Jim
Harriger's project, and that is the catalyst that is getting
me going. I have some general questions/comments that I
would like to ask/make.
First, I would like your information on the electric
elevator trim system, Matt.
Tools. Do any of you know of a 'reputable' mail-order
source that could save me some $ on big items like drill
press, belt/disk sander, band-saw, etc.? I just got a good
deal on an ATS 'RV' tool kit from a builder who gave-up. It
doesn't have the hand squeezer, so I thot I'd ask for
recommendations before I order their $125 3" version.
Are all of you aware of Phlogiston products? In addition to
finished RV spars, they are now building completed wings,
with tanks, tips, etc. done to your preference. Cost is
from 4 to 7K above the cost of the wing kit. Let me know if
you want more info. I have a good friend working there and
have toured their facility. Looks like they do nice work.
What is the easiest way to subscribe to the RVator?
I am interested in "possibly" using a Mazda Rotary
powerplant. We have been trying to get in touch with
"PowerSports" at the Aurora Or. airport. No luck yet. I
also talked with the guy in Mesa AZ. He is a nice guy, but
I would prefer to stay local if possible, for obvious
support reasons. My take on this whole issue is, if I can
buy a fairly complete installation, where I don't have to
engineer all of the parts and systems, I may do it. Else, I
will stick with the normal, 'antique' Lycoming engines.
Finally, why a taildragger instead of trike? If you haven't
yet, wait until you see a half dozen RVs taxi out for
takeoff. They look just like little fighters, not like
little Grummans. Quite a sight!
By the way, mine is an RV-6. Don Wentz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: Just starting |
>
> First, I would like your information on the electric
> elevator trim system, Matt.
I will post some information on rv-list next.
>
> Tools. Do any of you know of a 'reputable' mail-order
> source that could save me some $ on big items like drill
> press, belt/disk sander, band-saw, etc.? I just got a good
> deal on an ATS 'RV' tool kit from a builder who gave-up. It
> doesn't have the hand squeezer, so I thought I'd ask for
> recommendations before I order their $125 3" version.
>
If you get a bandsaw, and you WILL want one, BE SURE to get a variable
speed one. I got Craftsman unit that is variable speed and cost about
$200.00 - well worth it. It was a very good deal in my opinion. The variable
speed comes in so handy very often. I can't see having a saw without it.
I had an old drill press I got when I was 15 years old and it got the job done.
Then Sears had a sale on their Craftsman 12 speed floor standing model, and
I decided to take the plunge. BOY, I should have got one of those years
ago. It is a nice unit, and has paid for itself already in creating
superior work. Also - and this is a biggie... make sure you get one that
goes at least as slow as 250 rpm. When you start using the FlyCutter(Gutter),
the 250 is as fast as you would ever want to go. My old press would
only go as low as 900 rpm - and I couldn't figure out why my FlyCutter
was such a piece of crap... ha. It works real well at 250 rpm!
Finally, buy your aircraft tools from US, *not* ATS. Every ATS tool I have
bought, I have ended up buying agian at US. US has very good tools.
They (US) have a couple of good rivit squeezers. I have a 1 1/2" deep unit
and a 3". Both have worked nicely. One note of caution, though. Don't
try to set 1/8" rivets with the 3" sqeeezer. There is too much flex in the
top arm for this big of rivet and usually the shop head will get mushed off
to the side. 3/32" work fine. The 1 1/2" squeezer works fine on the 1/8"
rivets, although my hand gets tired doing 'um.
>
> Are all of you aware of Phlogiston products? In addition to
> finished RV spars, they are now building completed wings,
> with tanks, tips, etc. done to your preference. Cost is
> from 4 to 7K above the cost of the wing kit. Let me know if
> you want more info. I have a good friend working there and
> have toured their facility. Looks like they do nice work.
I had my spars done by them. WELL WORTH THE MONEY. I wish I could get
them to build my whole plane, know what I mean?
>
> What is the easiest way to subscribe to the RVator?
Send a check to Van's Aircraft and tell 'um you want a subscription. I think
its about $8.00 a year now.
>
> I am interested in "possibly" using a Mazda Rotary
> powerplant. We have been trying to get in touch with
> "PowerSports" at the Aurora Or. airport. No luck yet. I
> also talked with the guy in Mesa AZ. He is a nice guy, but
> I would prefer to stay local if possible, for obvious
> support reasons. My take on this whole issue is, if I can
> buy a fairly complete installation, where I don't have to
> engineer all of the parts and systems, I may do it. Else, I
> will stick with the normal, 'antique' Lycoming engines.
A 2500 hp, Rolls Royce is what I'd like to put in my -4. Don't think it'll fit
in the cowl, though... Maybe Van's would make a special one, aye?
>
> Finally, why a taildragger instead of trike? If you haven't
> yet, wait until you see a half dozen RVs taxi out for
> takeoff. They look just like little fighters, not like
> little Grummans. Quite a sight!
Amen.
>
> By the way, mine is an RV-6. Don Wentz.
Got it. I updated the list.
>
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | The Governor - Sales Pitch... |
I mentioned the Governor a few postings back, but I probably should
discribe it in a bit more debth. Many of you may be familiar with the
electric trim servo that is made by Mac Trim. This is a pretty nice unit
that installes fairly easily into the RVs. The *big* problem with it
in the RV application is that the output arm moves too fast for small trim
changes at high speeds. Van's talked about this in an RVator a year or
so ago, but really had no solution.
Wanting electric trim real bad in my RV-4, I sat down and designed an
electronic circuit that allows the *speed* of the Mac Trim to be varied from
full to almost not moving, *without* reducing the output
torque. I also added some switching circuitry that allows for the use of
standard SPDT (or DPDT), center off switchs instead of having to use the extra
large, specially wired switch that comes with the Mac Trim.
The Governor is very small (1" x 1" x 2"), and very light (<1oz). It is
very simple to hook up, and I have written a very complete installation
manual and wiring diagram. Speed adjustment is simple, and takes only
a small screw driver.
If you plan to use electric trim, I highly recommend using the Governor. Also,
I think that it should work with Van's new electric flap motor, although
I havn't tested this configuration and wouldn't reccommend it until I have.
If you are interested in the Governor, or know of someone that might be,
please request a brochure. Be sure to include a return mailing address.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore, CA 94550
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)grafix.iastate.edu (Martin R. Calsyn) |
| Subject: | FAA Tail numbers and paperwork |
I'm all wound up over the prospect of actually building and flying this
project. So naturally I had to contact the FAA as soon as I got the
plans (before I even had one rivet to admire). It looks from the packet
that they sent me, like I can apply for an N-number right away. Anyone
else taken this step? The packet they sent me was full of advisories
and circulars and recommendations for the builder's log, photographs,
EAA pre-closure visual inspections, etc. How are the rest of you
handling your builders log? What training/experience did you receive
before you pounded your first rivet on 'the real thing'?
Martin R. Calsyn martin(at)grafix.iastate.edu
Project Vincent ga.mrc(at)isumvs.bitnet
Iowa State University -- Ames, IA 50010
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
| Subject: | FAA Tail numbers and paperwork |
Martin R. Calsyn writes:
****
I'm all wound up over the prospect of actually building and flying this
project. So naturally I had to contact the FAA as soon as I got the
plans (before I even had one rivet to admire). It looks from the packet
that they sent me, like I can apply for an N-number right away. Anyone
else taken this step? The packet they sent me was full of advisories
and circulars and recommendations for the builder's log, photographs,
EAA pre-closure visual inspections, etc. How are the rest of you
handling your builders log? What training/experience did you receive
before you pounded your first rivet on 'the real thing'?
****
Who did you call at the FAA to get this information, Martin? I would
like to get this also. My understanding on the N number is that you can only
reserve it for one year. If your plane will be flying by June 1991, go for it
:-) !
We are using a standard lab notebook, and making entries for each
work session, including the date, what we did, and how long it took. We have
also taken polaroids of some major (well, they were major to us!) milestones.
We have a good friend who is an A&P IA and an EAA Technical Counselor who has
agreed to be our advisor. I guess we need to find out if he needs to scribble
in our book before we close the HS up.
Good luck, Martin. Glad to here you are getting wound up!!
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)grafix.iastate.edu (Martin R. Calsyn) |
| Subject: | RE: FAA Tail numbers and paperwork |
I called my local FAA GADO office (in Des Moines, IA). I called the main
GADO phone number and was routed to some obscure sub-department. I do need
to read the fine print again, so you may be right about the expiration.
The circular was a bit confusing about the timing between an assigned
N-Number and the registration. The airworthiness certificates and FAA
approval procedures were very well spelled out, though. I'll post again
after I've re-read the parts about the N-Number and subsequent
registration.
Martin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | m15235(at)mwvm.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Forwarding "Just starting" |
I thought i would add some of my thoughts on these topics (for what
the're worth)
Tools: In addition to US which matt mentioned i have also had good luck
with both Avery, and Kit A/C Tools. Best clecoes i've seen are
the WEDGELOCK brand--very smooth action. second best are CLECOE
LOCK--not quite as smooth but ok. Worst ive had are ATS. I would
also recommend dimpling vs ctrsk for all skins. Although dimpling
doesn't look as nice it would seem to be much stronger as the
dimple would take the shear load instead of (or in addition to)
the rivet. The large tool from Avery is great at dimpling large
skins.
Elec Trim: Personally i think the need for this on the -6 is not as great
as it is on the -3/-4. Van has a nice manual trim setup with
the vernier for very fine adj. Panel space on the other models
probably doesn't permit this.
Someone mentioned a proble with chatter of the ctrsnk cutter. Ive had
a similar problem. One part of my problem was using an ATS ctrsk cutter.
I think also part of the trick is drilling the hole initially to the
smallest size that the pilot will fit in. That keeps it nice and stable
during ctrsk cutting. Then enlarge as necessary to fit rivet/screw.
*
* Chris
*** -----------
*** Forwarded note from Don Wentz, sent 05/24/90 at 14:42:03...
*** -----------
Date: Thu, 24 May 90 10:00:59 PST
From: Don Wentz <wentzdon(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Just starting
Hi group. I purchased my tail kit about 2 years ago, but
due to the usual list of excuses (new home, new kids, etc.)
I haven't started yet. I have been over to look at Jim
Harriger's project, and that is the catalyst that is getting
me going. I have some general questions/comments that I
would like to ask/make.
First, I would like your information on the electric
elevator trim system, Matt.
Tools. Do any of you know of a 'reputable' mail-order
source that could save me some $ on big items like drill
press, belt/disk sander, band-saw, etc.? I just got a good
deal on an ATS 'RV' tool kit from a builder who gave-up. It
doesn't have the hand squeezer, so I thot I'd ask for
recommendations before I order their $125 3" version.
Are all of you aware of Phlogiston products? In addition to
finished RV spars, they are now building completed wings,
with tanks, tips, etc. done to your preference. Cost is
from 4 to 7K above the cost of the wing kit. Let me know if
you want more info. I have a good friend working there and
have toured their facility. Looks like they do nice work.
What is the easiest way to subscribe to the RVator?
I am interested in "possibly" using a Mazda Rotary
powerplant. We have been trying to get in touch with
"PowerSports" at the Aurora Or. airport. No luck yet. I
also talked with the guy in Mesa AZ. He is a nice guy, but
I would prefer to stay local if possible, for obvious
support reasons. My take on this whole issue is, if I can
buy a fairly complete installation, where I don't have to
engineer all of the parts and systems, I may do it. Else, I
will stick with the normal, 'antique' Lycoming engines.
Finally, why a taildragger instead of trike? If you haven't
yet, wait until you see a half dozen RVs taxi out for
takeoff. They look just like little fighters, not like
little Grummans. Quite a sight!
By the way, mine is an RV-6. Don Wentz.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | m15235(at)mwvm.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Forwarding "Just starting" |
Don
I'm not sure if dimpling is faster/easier or not. If you have a good
ctrsnk cutter you trust to maintain depth i suppose that could go
pretty fast, however i still prefer dimpling. With the avery tool when
i first started using it i wasn't whacking quite hard enough with the
mallet. A good hit can give a nice dimple that can approach the look
of a ctrsnk hole. I have also found that putting tape over the rivet
heads before driving helps. Best tape is a striping tape--kind of a
plastic based tape instead of standard masking tape which can be
difficult to get off.
Phone #s Avery 817 267 9407 Tx
Kit A/C tools 800 KIT TOOL Ca
I just spent an entire long weekend doing noting but deburring, and dimpling
ribs skins and spars for my second wing.
*
* Chris
*** -----------
*** Forwarded note from Don Wentz, sent 05/29/90 at 16:12:57...
*** -----------
Date: Tue, 29 May 90 12:00:21 PST
From: Don Wentz <wentzdon%ccm.hf.intel.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Forwarding "Just starting"
I thought i would add some of my thoughts on these topics (for what
the're worth)
Tools: In addition to US which matt mentioned i have also had good luck
with both Avery, and Kit A/C Tools. Best clecoes i've seen are
the WEDGELOCK brand--very smooth action. second best are CLECOE
LOCK--not quite as smooth but ok. Worst ive had are ATS. I would
also recommend dimpling vs ctrsk for all skins. Although dimpling
doesn't look as nice it would seem to be much stronger as the
dimple would take the shear load instead of (or in addition to)
the rivet. The large tool from Avery is great at dimpling large
skins.
Chris, I've heard the same about ATS clecoes. In addition to
added strength, with the right tool(s), I would think
dimpling would be faster/easier. Yes/no/maybe? Would you be
able to give me a Phone # or addr for Avery/Kit A/C so I can
get catalogs?
Elec Trim: Personally i think the need for this on the -6 is not as great
as it is on the -3/-4. Van has a nice manual trim setup with
the vernier for very fine adj. Panel space on the other models
probably doesn't permit this.
The thing I like about electric is the (maybe slight) weight
savings over the cables/etc. and the convenience of
on-the-stick control. I have flown Archers with electric
trim, and it is NICE. Besides, it is an easy custom item to
wow onlookers with...
Someone mentioned a proble with chatter of the ctrsnk cutter. Ive had
a similar problem. One part of my problem was using an ATS ctrsk cutter.
I think also part of the trick is drilling the hole initially to the
smallest size that the pilot will fit in. That keeps it nice and stable
during ctrsk cutting. Then enlarge as necessary to fit rivet/screw.
*
* Chris Thanks for the great inputs... don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
I just got the stuff for Matt's governor. It looks great. It will find
its way into my RV-6A when the time comes for it. It sure seems inexpensive
in today's megabuck accessory world. Thanks matt.
Does this setup use the new mac servo that they just put out with the
longer throw or will the older style servo with the shorter throw work
well enough and give enough trim travel??
chris
krieg
RV-6A Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: trim governor |
>
>
> I just got the stuff for Matt's governor. It looks great. It will find
> its way into my RV-6A when the time comes for it. It sure seems inexpensive
> in today's megabuck accessory world. Thanks matt.
I got a call from the guy that sells the MAC trim, and he was very interested
in the Governor. I sent him a evaluation unit and if he likes it he may
OEM them from me.
> Does this setup use the new mac servo that they just put out with the
> longer throw or will the older style servo with the shorter throw work
> well enough and give enough trim travel??
I believe that I have the longer travel trim servo, but I have used
the travel limiters in the servo. They make the long travel servo put
out as much as the short travel servo. I'd buy the long travel servo and use
the limiters if I needed too. That way you can always go back to the long
travel if you need to. "...ya know, I cut that board (wing skin) three
times and it was *still* too short!"
I just went and looked up the MAC part numbers. The "S6" Mac trim has
.95" of travel, and the "S4" has .75". With the reducers in the S6, I
think that you end up with .75". The travel reducers come with the S6 servo.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
>
> chris
> krieg
> RV-6A Builder
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Matt, will the new S8 Mac servo (the one with the extra long throw) be too
much throw for the trim tab. Sorry about all the Q's, but I want to make
sure I order the right one.
chris
PS -- I hate chattering countersink tools!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
>
>
> Matt, will the new S8 Mac servo (the one with the extra long throw) be too
> much throw for the trim tab. Sorry about all the Q's, but I want to make
> sure I order the right one.
>
> chris
>
>
If you use my plans for the 'no-slip-stream' control horn it will be WAY too
much. The S-6 in full throw is too much and pushes the trim tab to the
90 deg angle. With the control restrictors in the S-6, max-to-max throws
are just right.
I saw Van, The Man, at Merced on Saturday. I asked him about the
electric *flap* motor drive. He showed me the installation on the -6A.
WOW! That was a really slick install. It it really clean, and in my
opinion, *the only way to go*. The -4s install isn't quite as cool, but
not that bad.
Van was also interested in the Governor. He said he'd take a look at it.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
that does it, I'm going to get the electric flap setup when the time comes.
I will hopefully get to see it at Oshkosh this year. How did Van have it
set up in the cockpit?? was it a switch ala Cessna or a more adjustable
switch??
If I get the money that I that I think I will from selling aa F-14 model
that I built, I will probably be putting a check in the mail for the servo
and hopefully the governor also very soon.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
> Subject: Re: trim again
> Cc: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Status: R
>
> that does it, I'm going to get the electric flap setup when the time comes.
> I will hopefully get to see it at Oshkosh this year. How did Van have it
> set up in the cockpit?? was it a switch ala Cessna or a more adjustable
> switch??
Well, he just did it with a little center off, toggle switch on the panel.
I think stick grip mounted switches would be much better.
> If I get the money that I that I think I will from selling aa F-14 model
> that I built, I will probably be putting a check in the mail for the servo
> and hopefully the governor also very soon.
Well, all right!
>
> chris krieg
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | VAN's BBQ In August... |
Hi All!
How many of you are going to Van's Flyin/BBQ in August? It's always
lot'o fun. I havn't decided weither I'm going to fly or drive this year.
Last year I drove up with a friend and then spent a few days taking in the
coast along HW101 on the way home. Flying up has been pretty fun too,
although it takes a while in a C-172. Now, if I had a RV-4... :-)
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Jon Ronz's How To Build A Airplane Article... |
Have any of you read Jon Ronz's aritcle in Sport Aviation? I just started
the first one this morning over breakfast. Okay, so I'm a few issues behind...
Some interesting stuff. Have any of you plugged in Van's RVs dimensions into
Jons spread sheet to see how the RVs rate? It would be interesting to see how
acurate his formulas are in real life.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
well, yesterday I started to do the machine countersinking on my HS skin
and ran into the same trouble that some of you have, tool chattering.
so I sat down and tried to figure out what to do to stop this.
I figured out that the metal at the bottom of the countersink gets thin
and allows the tool to make the hole oval. So I came up with this idea.
what I do is clamp a piece of wood to the back side of the metal surface.
then I drill a hole in the wood through the rivet hole, the same size as
the rivet hole. then I just go use the countersink tool on it. the hole in
the wood holds the pilot guide point on the tool in one place and, voila,
a perfectly round machine countersink hole.
here is a rough picture of it...
_____________________ _______________________
metal | |
_____________________| |_______________________
| |
wood | | <-- Hole drilled in wood
| |
\___/
_________________________________________________
| CS |
| Tool |
____________________| |_______________________
metal \ /
_____________________\ /________________________
| |
wood | | <-- tip of countersink too
|\_/|
\___/
____________________________________________________
for areas that a conventional clamp won't work, try using a clecoe.
this will require some extra drilling in the wood to make it work.
| | | CS |
| | Clecoe | Tool |
_________|_ _ _|_________________| |_______________________
|X| metal \ /
___________|X|____________________\ /________________________
|X| | |
/ X \ wood | | <-- tip of countersink too
| X | |\_/|
| | \___/
__________| |__________________________________________________
this gives the clecoe something to grab on to.
make sure that the wood is clamped firmly to the metal or the metal will
raise up and you'll have the same old problem.
if it's still not clear, send me some mail and I'll try to explain it better.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Roxanne.llnl.gov Down For Disk Upgrades... |
rv-list's host machine, matronics.com, will be down for disk upgrades
over the next few days. I hope that total service will be restored by
Friday, June 8 in the late afternoon.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: tool chattering |
> Subject: tool chattering
>
> Well, yesterday I started to do the machine countersinking on my HS skin
> and ran into the same trouble that some of you have, tool chattering.
> so I sat down and tried to figure out what to do to stop this...
[cool pictures deleted...]
>
> ...make sure that the wood is clamped firmly to the metal or the metal will
> raise up and you'll have the same old problem.
>
> Chris Krieg
>
This is very interesting. I havn't had anything close to as many problems
counter sinking. I did have a few problems like these when I was counter-
sinking the holes in the spar for the machine screws that hold the Fuel
tank on. This was related to the fact that the material is not thick enough
to counter sink a hole the size of the screw.
Here's the deal, if you have the depth set correctly for the 3/32 inch rivit
counter sink .032 or thicker metal, pilot hole elongation shouldn't be a
problem. If it is, your rivit is not making a good fit in the hole.
Builders that are having this problem: When you put a rivit in the hole
that you have just countersunk, is the head flush with the skin - even
with a magnifing glass? You should be able run your finger over the *un*set
rivit sitting in the hole, and not feel a dip or an edge.
What is the typical drill RPM that you are using? Are you pressing very
firmly on the metal with the counter sink skirt?
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
| Subject: | chattering of countersinks |
I have to agree with Matt- i've never had these problems either.
not only shouldthepilot hole remain the same #40 size atthe end, the set
rivet should protrude "slightly" above the skin. the inspectors will look
for this as proper construction, and an indication of not over-countersinnking.
my own preference is for dimpling, as it doesn't weaken the skin as much, and
rivets won't shear as easily from the sharp edge.
the screw holes for the fuel tank must be dimpled, as the skin isn't nearly
thick enough.
for sure, make a few test countersinks before trying it on the real thing.
one comment unrelated to this topic. I just installed my alternator.
I went downtown and bought a '78 honda civic alternator. I bought a small
bracket from the local FBO to fit my Lyc 0-360. Ispent $50. anyone
thinking the kit from penguin aviation is paying too much.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: tool chattering |
I have tried different drill speeds and I do press very firmly. the way
I do it now, the rivet head is completely flush with the metal. not too
deep and not too shallow.
hwat type of drill speed do you use to countersink??
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: tool chattering |
> Subject: Re: tool chattering
> Cc: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Status: R
>
> I have tried different drill speeds and I do press very firmly. the way
> I do it now, the rivet head is completely flush with the metal. not too
> deep and not too shallow.
>
> What type of drill speed do you use to countersink??
>
> chris
>
2500 rpm has seemed to work fine. I don't understand it. What brand of
tool (countersinker) do you have?
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: tool chattering |
I"m not too sure what the brand is. An RV builder from this area loaned me
a bunch of tool. Alomost all are from US Tool, and I think the countersink
tool is too. This guy doesn't use cheap tools and has a beautiful RV-4 to
prove it. Maybe I should just try to make a little shallower hole. My rivets
end up flush now, but maybe when you rivet them they flatten out a little.
I'll just grab another scrap piece out of the bin and experiment some more.
chris krieg
RV-6A builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Countersinking vs dimpling |
I've been watching this discussion about countersinking versus
dimpling and the use of dimpling tools. I'm an electronic
engineer, not a mechanical one, but my intuition leads me to
a couple of thoughts:
1) The thinning of the metal by countersinking reduces the
shear strength. It also seems the hole will enlarge more
easily allowing the rivet to loosen.
2) I seem to recall reading there are 12,000 rivets in an
RV-6. While I'm sure not all need to be flush rivited,
it still seems like a tremendous amount of countersinking.
Isn't dimpling alot faster in addition to being stronger?
Has Van's aircraft published any recommendations either way?
Doug Medema
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: Countersinking vs dimpling |
>
> I've been watching this discussion about countersinking versus
> dimpling and the use of dimpling tools. I'm an electronic
> engineer, not a mechanical one, but my intuition leads me to
> a couple of thoughts:
>
> 1) The thinning of the metal by countersinking reduces the
> shear strength. It also seems the hole will enlarge more
> easily allowing the rivet to loosen.
Yes, true enough.
>
> 2) I seem to recall reading there are 12,000 rivets in an
> RV-6. While I'm sure not all need to be flush rivited,
> it still seems like a tremendous amount of countersinking.
Countersinking of 3/32 rivits is only allowed on skin of .032 or greater.
While there is a lot of .032 skin, there is just as much if not more, .025
that must be dimpled.
> Isn't dimpling alot faster in addition to being stronger?
I know that a number of people will sure to disagree with me, but countersinking
(when it works right) is a *lot* easier. It goes faster than drilling the
holes. Also, any hole that gets countersunk, doesn't need to be deburred
on the top side - more time savings. Dimpling has just seemed to be a pain
in the ass that I would rather avoid when possible.
>
> Has Van's aircraft published any recommendations either way?
>
Van's has stayed rather noncommital on this point I think. He basicly says,
any metal .032 or greater can be countersunk, and that any metal can be
dimpled.
> Doug Medema
>
>
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | quent(at)elroy.cs.iastate.edu (Quent Johnson) |
| Subject: | Re: Countersinking vs dimpling |
Hello everyone -- Sorry I haven't done much posting to this mailing list.
This week Martin Calsyn and I had the good fortune to meet with a couple
master RV builders in Boone Iowa. One was Buz Laurentsen, (hmm..spelling?)
winner of the grand champion kit built award at Oshkosh last year. The other
was Ralph Kroger who might as well win! We stood next to the champion
RV-4 as we talked/drooled.
Buz's RV-4 had mostly dimpled flush rivets. The fuel tank fill nozzle
had countersunk rivets around it. All the riveting was superb! The
countersunk rivets were invisible and the dimpled ones nearly so.
Ralph told us that getting the right dimpling dies is *crucial*. Good
ones go for around $28 each but are worth it. This weekend Martin and
I plan to visit his shop and learn some tricks of the master builders.
I'll share info as I get it.
Quentin Johnson {} ISU Computer Science Department {} Ames, IA
quent(at)atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu | uunet!umix!sharkey!atanasoff!quent
515/294-7214
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Roxanne Back Online... |
Roxanne's disk upgrade was a success. Please feel free to post to rv-list
as you see fit!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
| Subject: | nuts in my stabilizer! |
Gang:
Okay, I'll bite: how dow I get the nut that holds the tip rib vertical
out of the stabilizer once the skins are riveted on. I remember someone here
saying that they almost messed up here, and I figured that I could figure it
out when I got there. Well, I'm close now and I can't figure out how that nut
comes out. do you just enlarge the hole enough? we've thought of doing that
with a nibbler and our technical advisor said that it would be ok, but that he
thought there must be a 'cleaner' solution.
So:how did you folks get yours nuts out?
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | m15235(at)mwvm.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Forwarding "nuts in my stabilizer!" |
So i'm not the only one caught by this! It would seem to me that the nut
inside the rib only needs to be in place dring drilling of the skin.
After that i think you could removethe inside nut and start riveting.
I got mine out by removing the stud from my jig and pushing the stud and
inside nut into the stab, drilling out the tooling hole to the size of
the nut and fishing the nut/stud assy out through the hole. I don't
think the enlarged hole should cause a problem.
*
* Chris
*** -----------
*** Forwarded note from Jim Harriger, sent 06/20/90 at 13:23:04...
*** -----------
(5.59/foobar3.cfv1.10)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 90 10:18 PDT
From: jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger)
Subject: nuts in my stabilizer!
Gang:
Okay, I'll bite: how dow I get the nut that holds the tip rib vertical
out of the stabilizer once the skins are riveted on. I remember someone here
saying that they almost messed up here, and I figured that I could figure it
out when I got there. Well, I'm close now and I can't figure out how that nut
comes out. do you just enlarge the hole enough? we've thought of doing that
with a nibbler and our technical advisor said that it would be ok, but that he
thought there must be a 'cleaner' solution.
So:how did you folks get yours nuts out?
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | New Member Speaks Out... |
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Reply to: New Member Added To rv-list(at)matronics.com |
Dear Matt:
Thank you including me in this group of tin benders. I am very interested
in back issues. I need to catch up to the present state of the art!
I am building an RV-6. I have complete the tail with exception of that odd
horizontal stab tip. Wing ribs are cut out and fluted, and the rear spars read`
y to r
ready to rivet. I am behind my neighbor Chris Moody by an ever increasing
margin, its nice to have ole Chris up ahead in the path to break up the
spider webs. He once lamented, "Rick, if only I had someone like me for me."
Unlike Chris, who hjas nothing else to do, I am also rebuilding a house and
wooden sailboat. Besides slowing airplane production, these projects will
require the shop space inbetween my jig posts for a short while. Is there
any reason why one cannot build the wing control surfaces before the wing
is jigged?
There is also the AIR JEEP, a Cessna 120 which I have flown all over the
place. It keeps me in the air, where Van said we should be. The RV-6
will be an excitng step up from 85hp, but I will miss getting in and out
in the rain without geting the cockpit wet, and sitting under the wing
in a lounge chair.
happy trails
Rick Gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Re: nuts in my stabilizer! |
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: nuts in my stabilizer!
> Status: R
>
>
> Gang:
>
> Okay, I'll bite: how dow I get the nut that holds the tip rib vertical
> out of the stabilizer once the skins are riveted on. I remember someone here
> saying that they almost messed up here, and I figured that I could figure it
> out when I got there. Well, I'm close now and I can't figure out how that nut
> comes out. do you just enlarge the hole enough? we've thought of doing that
> with a nibbler and our technical advisor said that it would be ok, but that he
> thought there must be a 'cleaner' solution.
>
> So:how did you folks get yours nuts out?
> ^
> |
> ----------------| Jim Harriger
> |
|
Its been a while since I looked at this, but can you just tip it out the
lighting holes in the ribs? Actually, I guess the inside ribs don't have
holes, huh? Hummm, here's a thought: If you get one side rivited on, and
maybe most of the second side, why couldn't you just take the bolt out at
that point? Once all of the holes are drilled and you've got a cleco in
every other hole, you really don't need the support of the jig anyway.
Thats the whole point of clecos...
Any Comments?
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: nuts in my stabilizer! |
I have mine set up so that I can remove the offending nut before riveting.
This setup will hold the HS framework in place firmly without the inside
nut (although I did leave it in to build the HS skeleton). All you have to
do is remove the inside nut just before riveting. When you are done riveting,
you can then back off the other nuts and remove the bolt.
Here's how it lokks (roughly):
Bolt | | ||
\ | | ||
_| |_ Nuts _||_
| | | | <-- --> | || | <--Nut (take this one out before riveting)
| |___|_|___________|_||_|__
| | | || |
| |___|_______________||____|
| | | | | || |
|_| |_| |_||_|
| | ||
| | ||
| | <- Support || <-- Tip Rib
| | Bracket ||
now if I can only remember to take the nut out before I do MY riveting!!!
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle) |
| Subject: | Van's BBQ in August... |
Hi fellow RV builders...
How many of you all plan on going to Van's annual RV flyin/BBQ at his
place in Oregon? I was up to North Plains for it last year. I was lots-o
fun. I drove up from the San Fransisco area last time, but I'm thinking
about flying up this year. I havn't decided yet - all I got to fly right now
is a un-cool Cessna 172. Maybe I can finish my RV in time... okay, maybe
not... :-)
It really neat to see that many RVs all in one place. Its like a mini
airforce.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven L Harris <steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET> |
| Subject: | rv builders mailing list? |
Don Wentz told me about a mailing list for rv builders, I would like to be
added to the list if possible. I am building an rv-4 and am currently working
on the wings.
If past issues or mailings are available, those would be really nice to have.
Thanks,
steveha(at)tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
Steve Harris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: rv builders mailing list? |
Actually, you are on the list, but your address was screwed up, I'm sure that
Matt will update the list now that we have the correct address.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
| Subject: | Status update for our RV-6 |
Gang,
Well, a major milestone was passed this weekend; yesterday we took
the horizontal stabilizer out of the jig. With the exception of the tips and
a few pop-rivets in places we couldn't get the hammer or the squeezer, it
is done. looks pretty good, too.
To answer the how to get the nuts out of the stab. once it is closed,
you just drill about a 1/2" hole in the tip rib and then fish the nut out
with one of those magnet-on-a-stick jobbies. works pretty well.
Next, we start the vertical stab.
As my partner said: "Wow, something that actuall looks like part of
an airplane!"
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Come on all you newcomers, give us some info. Even if you aren't building
yet, let us know your plans. What do you want to build and why??
I love hearing about other people's progress/plans for progress.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | m15235(at)mwvm.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Forwarding "Status update for our RV-6" |
congrats on completing the first major structure! I ended up
elevating the HS in the jig for fitting the elevators as i built
them next. That way you can check for the rod end locations and
for clearance as they swing.
*
* Chris
*** -----------
*** Forwarded note from Jim Harriger, sent 06/25/90 at 14:55:03...
*** -----------
(5.59/foobar3.cfv1.10)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 90 08:10 PDT
From: jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger)
Subject: Status update for our RV-6
Gang,
Well, a major milestone was passed this weekend; yesterday we took
the horizontal stabilizer out of the jig. With the exception of the tips and
a few pop-rivets in places we couldn't get the hammer or the squeezer, it
is done. looks pretty good, too.
To answer the how to get the nuts out of the stab. once it is closed,
you just drill about a 1/2" hole in the tip rib and then fish the nut out
with one of those magnet-on-a-stick jobbies. works pretty well.
Next, we start the vertical stab.
As my partner said: "Wow, something that actuall looks like part of
an airplane!"
Jim Harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
traffic here sure has gotten light lately. How's evryone's project coming??
I'm waiting on a new HS tip rib. I misdrilled the old one. I probably
could have used it, but better safe than sorry. The skin is half on one
side of the HS. Now I'm looking for book on being a contortionist so that
I can reach up into the HS to hold the bucking bar :-).
After I get the new rib, it should be only another week before I finish
the HS. In the meantime, I've started working on the VS main spar.
Wee, lets hear from you. Especially some of the new-comers.
^
|
make that "well"
Rodney, I saw your letter in Sport Aviation about rec.aviation. Now all we
need to do is let other RV-builders that might not read rec.av to know we
exist. Some can send E-mail, but either can't or don't read news.
that's all for now
Chris Krieg
RV-6A builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jdh(at)synchro.hf.intel.com (Jim Harriger) |
| Subject: | Progress update. |
Hello there, rv-list!!
We finished our Vertical Stab. last sunday, it is now also a piece of
Al sculpture for my living room. We have built a table for building
elevators by attaching a piece of finish quality 3/4" Ply to the cross-
bar of the jig. We will be starting on the elevators soon (this week).
Can anyone tell me where to buy a suitable light to put in the top of the
vert. stab.? I like what Van's describes in the manual, but I don't just
happen to have lying around, a Grimes Piggy-Back strobe. I've looked through
Spruce's catalog and think I could get something to work, but maybe there is
a better solution. Anyone?
Keep on buckin'
Jim Harriger
and Ron Ebersole
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: Progress update. |
>
> We finished our Vertical Stab. last sunday, it is now also a piece of
> Al sculpture for my living room. We have built a table for building
> elevators by attaching a piece of finish quality 3/4" Ply to the cross-
> bar of the jig. We will be starting on the elevators soon (this week).
>
> Can anyone tell me where to buy a suitable light to put in the top of the
> vert. stab.? I like what Van's describes in the manual, but I don't just
> happen to have lying around, a Grimes Piggy-Back strobe. I've looked through
> Spruce's catalog and think I could get something to work, but maybe there is
> a better solution. Anyone?
>
> Keep on buckin'
>
>
> Jim Harriger
> and Ron Ebersole
>
I can't really help on making a choice, but once you found what you like,
check with Chief Aircraft in Grant's Pass OR. THey have the best prices
on all that strobe stuff.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)iastate.edu |
| Subject: | Progress, or A Spar is Born |
A couple weeks ago I finished my H-Stab rear spar and last night pounded
the last few rivets for the forward spar (all except those destined for ribs
of course). Now comes the task of prepping the ribs and assembling the
whole mess in the jig.
Can't recall if I've mentioned this yet or not, but Quent and I built
a free-standing jig. It's a 117" wide by 7' tall frame of 4x4 with a 4x4
cross-piece that we'll use for the tail kit. That'll come out and it becomes
a wing jig. The whole thing is supported by a pair of 3/4" plywood
triangular pieces. It is assembled using 1 5/8" drywall screws with 1/2"
plywood triangles providing rigidity at each junction.
Finally we're about to start seeing some pieces that look like airplane
parts - actually fastening ribs to spars and such.
I'll feel real productive if I can get my entire tail kit assembled before
the weather makes it impractical to continue work. We are working in
my garage. I can heat the garage, but the heat source won't get along
too well with the Variprime primer - I want to get airborn, but not that
way!
PS - Matt, could you change my email address to martin(at)iastate.edu - thanks.
Martin R. Calsyn martin(at)iastate.edu
Project Vincent ga.mrc(at)isumvs.bitnet
Iowa State University -- Ames, IA 50010
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Progress, or A Spar is Born |
As far as heat in the winter goes, I use an inrenally heated oil heat. It is
electric and has no flame source. ^-- make that internally
It uses a sparkless heating element. They are the kind that look like an
old fashioned heater.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | quent(at)elroy.cs.iastate.edu (Quent Johnson) |
| Subject: | Re: Progress, or A Spar is Born |
Since it's almost *too* hot to work there now what we need is
a way to save all this heat for later :-)
Quent
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
So who's going to Oshkosh this year??
I'll be driving in on friday night/saturday morning and driving back
to columbus on sunday night.
I'll be the one crawling allover the -6A taking rolls pictures.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven L Harris <steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET> |
| Subject: | First posting, status |
Hello RV builders, this is my first posting to this mailing list as I seemed to
have an email address that was unintelligible. Just thought I would give everyone
a little status on where I am on my project.
I am building an RV-4 and am currently working on the wings. I have completed
the
empennage construction. I chose to have phlogiston do my spars, more for a time
savings than anything else. (also from the peace of mind standpoint, I know they
do a good job). I am working on both wings in parallel, that way I hope to save
a little bit of time in not having to re-learn things. The trade-off is that when
I make a mistake, it generally gets duplicated. I have finished the outboard leading
edge construction and am working on the fuel tanks (a very messy task, by the way).
Things I have learned, mistakes not to repeat, choices I have made...
Buy quality tools the first time -- I purchased mostly ATS tools to start with
and
have replaced most of them with tools from Avery or elsewhere. Not only does
it
cost less to buy good tools the first time, it produces higher quality results.
For
instance, I had a 1/8 inch rivet set from ATS that it was nearly impossible to
drive a rivet without "smiling" it. I replaced it with one from Avery's and
haven't
had a problem since.
In general, my approach is to produce the absolute best possible airplane out
there
but to produce a safely constructed airplane in the least possible time. I really
want to get it flying as soon as I can. To facilitate this, I have chosen to
follow
the plans as close as possible. I did put electric elevator trim in and it cost
me quite a bit of time, I don't plan on very many more deviations from the plans.
I live in Banks, OR and drive past Van's factory every day on the way to work.
In
addition, my partner in the Citabria I own is an employee of Vans and is building
an RV-6 (working on the fuselage). Having the ability to call in an order for
an extra part in the morning and pick it up on the way home from work has really
been an advantage. I think that belonging to a local builders group (we don't
have
one here locally believe it or not) would be a tremendous help. Having a partner
building an RV-6 is almost as good.
Buy one of those "Zip gun" spray guns for applying the primer -- I was using
a normal spray gun and found myself spending 15 minutes priming and 1 hour cleaning
the gun. With the zip gun, there is virtually NO cleanup, when there are lots
of little parts to be primed, it saves a lot of time.
Read the instructions 20 times and you can still screw it up. When I was building
the leading edges of my wings, I for some unknown reason, got it in my mind that
they were supposed to be riveted to the ribs when the ribs were on the spar.
Although there is nothing wrong with doing it that way, it is MUCH more difficult
than drilling it on the spar and then riveting it on the bench and then re-installing
the completed assy on the spar.
Well, I can't think of any more hints or ideas right now, but I would like to see
more of this type of interchange. If we can all share our knowledge of the little
bits and pieces we learn, it will help us all get done quicker with higher quality
results.
Steve Harris
steveha(at)tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
(503) 324-8131 home
(503) 627-2454 work
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | quent(at)elroy.cs.iastate.edu (Quent Johnson) |
I hope to be there on Thursday (by car, unfortunately) and staying
for the week. I'll be the one in Chris's photographs :-)
Quent Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Quent Johnson <quent%elroy.cs.iastate.edu(at)RELAY.CS.NET> |
steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET
| Subject: | Re: First posting, status |
Thanks for the hints Steve! I want to echo what you just said -- it
is without a doubt worth the expense to buy the best tools you can find.
Dimpling dies are another key item. If you don't get the quality dies
like Avery or Kit Tools sell then you'll have a very hard time making
flush rivets be flush.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
One thing I forgot. For those of you who are going to Osh, where are
you staying?? I'll be at the Howard Johnsons in Depere. Is everyone
going to try to meet with the rest of the rec.av crowd?? I'd like to
meet the other RVers on the net. Wear an RV t-shirt or something to
designate yourselves.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
One thing I forgot. For those of you who are going to Osh, where are
you staying?? I'll be at the Howard Johnsons in Depere. Is everyone
going to try to meet with the rest of the rec.av crowd?? I'd like to
meet the other RVers on the net. Wear an RV t-shirt or something to
designate yourselves.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven L Harris <steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET> |
| Subject: | Margins on first posting |
Well, I blew it. Sorry about the long lines on my first posting.
Evidently my mailtool here is wider than the standard 80 characters.
I'll try to keep em shorter from now on!
Steve Harris
steveha(at)tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | seahcx!phred!dougm(at)travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (RV-6A wannabuild) |
| Subject: | RV-6A plans ordered! |
I finally managed to fly in the "tri-gear" (-6A) at the Arlington
fly-in. Dick Smith was the pilot. I hadn't done any flying as
a pilot in around four years, so I just did some turns. I asked
Dick to stall it and we did some stalls with and without flaps.
Without flaps, it stalled pretty mildly. Dick said that with flaps,
it will drop off to either side pretty quickly, and the pilot has
to stay on top of it. We also did some other "stuff" and then
headed back to the airport. Probably 20-30 minutes of air time.
One of the main reasons I wanted a demo ride was to see how I fit.
I'm 6'6" with looooong legs! It turns out that you can't get max
ailerons because the stick hits my legs. Van said I could fix that
by adjusting the bell crank positions out at the ailerons. He said
this would very minimally impact handling characteristics. I'm
definitely planning to use the enlarged canopy when it is available.
Right now, my endurance in the plane would be limited by my legs
never getting to be straight. Probably no more than a couple of
hours. Since I want a fun to fly around the local area plane, and
not a cross-country beast (I'd do a Wheeler Express for the latter),
the cabin size is not a huge concern for me. By the way, I tried
to sit in one of our EAA chapter member's RV-4 and just plain don't
fit!
There were three other RV-6s at the fly-in including Art Tolles
(I think its Art) which has been featured in several articles.
One of them wasn't completely done and was interesting to look at.
I certainly do appreciate the tool tips I see here. Does anyone
building have any comments on Tony Bengelis' (sp?) article in the
latest Sport Aviation regarding tool buying sequence. I just
recently got a drill press and was pleased to see that it was his
number 1 recommendation. I also intend to get a band saw. This
was his number 2 recommendation which just increased my desire to
make this the next large tool purchase. (I already have a table
saw which should help in jig building.)
Anyway, I fit, I flew, I ordered the plans! Now, if I could just
get our house done, I could build.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6A plans ordered! |
I've said it before, but I'll say it again because I think it is very
important. If you buy a bandsaw, and I highly recommend you do, be *sure*
to get one that is variable speed! Strangly, they are somewhat uncommon,
but they are certainnly much nicer to work with when cutting metal vs wood,
etc. I have a nice Craftsman unit I got from Sears at a very reasonable
price. It has a pot on it that varies the speed on the motor - no stupid
belts to mess with.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Van's New 4-place RV-8! |
So, how many of you have seen the 3-Ds of Van's new RV-8?? A bit
unconventional if you ask me! For those of you that havn't seen the latest
RVator, the new 4 place RV, the RV-8, it looks much like a F-82 Twin Mustang!
It is basicly two RV-4s connected together in the center with a common wing and
a straight thru horz/elevator. It will use engines out of an Apache as well
as the feathering CS props and the retracting main gear!
Does this seem like quite a deversion from Van's typical, Back-To-Basics
design philosophy?? Actually, I had toyed with such an idea myself.
Decreasing the drag by one full wing panel, CS props, and retracts
could make the RV-8 a real hot ship.
But... doesn't it seem that Van would be better off coming out with a more
conventional 4 place plane? Feeding one 200-230HP engine would be much
more effeciant than two 160HPs.
The only problem with a conventional 4 place design similar to the RVs would
be that it would probably look like a Cheeta....
What do you all think? I certainly would like to try a F82/RV-8 design, but
doesn't it seem a bit out of the relm of most builders?
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's new RV-8 |
Before you get serious about this, check out the date on the drawing.
4/1/90!!!!
It does look neat though.
I'm putting the last rivets in my H stab within the next week!!
Then I'll be able to put the V stab in the jig. I'm just about ready
to start riveting it now.
While at Oshkosh this time, I'm going to be looking for some really good
dimple dies. I think I'll dimple as much of the rest of the plane as I
can. Any opinions on a good company that you have gotten good dies from??
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: Van's new RV-8 |
> Subject: Re: Van's new RV-8
> Status: R
>
>
> Before you get serious about this, check out the date on the drawing.
> 4/1/90!!!!
> It does look neat though.
>
> I'm putting the last rivets in my H stab within the next week!!
> Then I'll be able to put the V stab in the jig. I'm just about ready
> to start riveting it now.
> While at Oshkosh this time, I'm going to be looking for some really good
> dimple dies. I think I'll dimple as much of the rest of the plane as I
> can. Any opinions on a good company that you have gotten good dies from??
>
> chris krieg
>
>
Ha ha ha, okay so the jokes on me. I didn't even notice that.
As far as dimple dies, US TOOL make some really nice ones that I have been
very happy with. They're about $20.00, but well worth it!
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sequent!aviator(at)uunet.uu.net |
| Subject: | progress update on rv6 #20252 |
Gang:
First, I am back on the net, with a new address. I have
changed companies.
Second: we have started work on the right elevator and will
be priming soon. one comment: we have a dimpler that we bought from
avery enterprises, which is the best $89 we ever spent. a good tool!
A builder 's tip: when you have finished your stabilizers
and are getting ready to build the elevators, you need a table, right?
we found that putting a piece of 3/4" AC-grade plywood, 2'x8', on top
of the horizontal beam of the stab jig, and screwing it down makes a
wonderful table. It is pretty strong, the right height, and hasn't
needed any bracing as of yet.
Keep on rivetin'...
Jim Harriger
aviator(at)sequent.uucp
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: progress update on rv6 #20252 |
Yeah, I just bought one of those dimplers at Oshkosh. They even threw
in the return spring kit. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I
will in the next couple of days. I also bought brand spanking new
dimple dies from US Tool. Now, I am totally committed to dimpling all
things that are possible, I just didn't like how my countersinking
in the H stab came out, or all that removed metal.
As for the elevators, I used a tabletop jig to build the HS, so I
will just build the elevators on it.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: progress update on rv6 #20252 |
> Subject: Re: progress update on rv6 #20252
> Cc: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Status: RO
>
> Yeah, I just bought one of those dimplers at Oshkosh. They even threw
> in the return spring kit. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I
> will in the next couple of days. I also bought brand spanking new
> dimple dies from US Tool. Now, I am totally committed to dimpling all
> things that are possible, I just didn't like how my countersinking
> in the H stab came out, or all that removed metal.
>
> As for the elevators, I used a tabletop jig to build the HS, so I
> will just build the elevators on it.
>
> Chris Krieg
>
All this talk about dimpling and countersinking got me to thinking. How do
the 'Big Boys' do it? Does a Cessna Citation have dimpled rivit holes? How
about a Beech Starship?
I really love countersinking any where I can. If you've got a good tool
(a good musician doesn't blame his instrument, but I do) counter sunk holes
come out really nice. Besides, it is SO much faster.
I conseed the fact that dimpling is stronger, but does it really matter? If
you've ever flown in a Cessna or Piper, I sure that you've taken a bigger
strength risk, you know?
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: progress update on rv6 #20252 |
well, after looking at Buzz Lauritson's (sp?) RV-4, I'm convinced that I
can have good looks and extra strength.
Rivets on the Beech Starship????
Isn't that one of them there composte (Allen Tolle's word) airplane??
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: progress update on rv6 #20252 |
> Subject: Re: progress update on rv6 #20252
> Cc: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Status: R
>
> well, after looking at Buzz Lauritson's (sp?) RV-4, I'm convinced that I
> can have good looks and extra strength.
>
> Rivets on the Beech Starship????
>
> Isn't that one of them there composte (Allen Tolle's word) airplane??
>
> chris krieg
>
There's a fair amount of sheetmetal on it. I saw one a the (Great) Livermore
Airshow last weekend. Really impressive!
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | perrin(at)crc.skl.dnd.ca (John Perrin) |
| Subject: | Greetings from up north |
Gentlemen;
Just thought I'd drop a short note to introduce myself. I'm building an
RV-4 and am currently hard at work on the empennage (VS to be precise).
I did have the good fortune to attend the builders workshop at Vans
in June (can't say enough good things about it - a very worthwhile
endeavour to be sure!). I may have the record for greatest distance
travelled to attend the workshop - Ottawa (about 100 mi west of montreal)
to North Plains via Atlanta, but it was worth it.
I'd like to throw a few questions out to the members of the list.
1) Does anyone see any problem with installing skin rivets on VS and
HS out of the jig (assuming all holes have been drilled with the
assembly in the jig)?
2) There were some ramblings a while ago regarding electric elevator
trim. Whats the latest?
3) I'm planning on full gyros (for night flying). Anyone far enough
along to have tried putting something together for shock mounting?
Van & Art Chard both remarked that the '4s instrument panel is a
structural member, so I don't want to chop it up too much.
I guess thats enough questions at once. One thing I found out at
the workshop was that there is a tremendous amount to be gained by
just talking with other builders. Since there's no one else nearby
building an RV, I hope to get a lot out of this informal exchange
of ideas.
Glad to be aboard!
John Perrin
perrin(at)crc.skl.dnd.ca (or via the list)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. GRACELY" <RCG%NIHCUDEC.BITNET(at)CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> |
Testing, testing, ??
I replied to some bandsaw comments a while back and am not sure that I got
thru. This is a test via another route. E-mail ain't exactly my speciality.
rick gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
well, I finished my H stabilizer this weekend. It now resides (much to my
wife's amusement) behimd the couch in our living room. It will require
a little filler here and there, but not too bad overall. Anyone have any
suggestions for filler??
I started work on my Vstab last week and have the vertical rear spar almost
done.
Anyone else have any updates??
chris
krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> Subject: HS DONE!!
> Status: R
>
>
> well, I finished my H stabilizer this weekend. It now resides (much to my
> wife's amusement) behimd the couch in our living room. It will require
> a little filler here and there, but not too bad overall. Anyone have any
> suggestions for filler??
>
> I started work on my Vstab last week and have the vertical rear spar almost
> done.
>
> Anyone else have any updates??
>
> chris
> krieg
>
As far as filler, just use regular auto Bondo. A few words of recommendation
though. Be sure to get the contour of the patch as close to what you want
before it sets. Don't think that it will be easy to just sand it down to
what you want. Sanding it is a LOT of work.
Also, the Bondo gases this really sticky stuff to the top after it cures. This
goo doesn't really sand off, but you will need to take something like 80 grit to
get it off. After the goo is gone, then you can sand the actual Bondo filler
much like a hardwood.
Last note, be SURE to slightly scuff the metal surface with 400-600 grit prior
to putting the Bondo on. Clean the metal surface with Lacquer Thinner, and
then (and DON'T forget this) clean it again just before you put the Bondo on
with Naptha (I think that's how it's spelled.) The Naptha really cleans the
surface well.
Using Bondo is about as close as I want to get to a composite plane for now.
It is really a messing, smelling business - yeck! It does seem to work pretty
well though.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
I have a question. At the bottom of the VS rear spar, the plans
say to use the 426 flush rivets. The plan shows the holes just
countersunk. I don't think the aluminum is thick enough for this.
did Van just show it countersunk for ease of drawing, or am I
really supposed to countersink these holes rather than dimple??
If I am confusing in this, they are the rivets that join the 2
pieces of the rear VS spar at the bottom where it butts against
the fuslage.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> Subject: help??
> Status: R
>
>
> I have a question. At the bottom of the VS rear spar, the plans
> say to use the 426 flush rivets. The plan shows the holes just
> countersunk. I don't think the aluminum is thick enough for this.
> did Van just show it countersunk for ease of drawing, or am I
> really supposed to countersink these holes rather than dimple??
> If I am confusing in this, they are the rivets that join the 2
> pieces of the rear VS spar at the bottom where it butts against
> the fuslage.
>
> chris krieg
>
Yes, I believe those are flush rivits. THat piece needs to butt flush up
against the fuse. Check the plans and manual carfully. As I recall, he
does talk about the countersinking.
As I remember back, it seems that one piece was dimpled and one was countered.
HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS!!! My name just came up on the hanger list at Livermore!!
Yeaaaaa! Unfortunatly, I won't need it for a couple of years, but sub leasing
is a snap when the waiting list is 300+ long! It took 2.5 years to move 80
places for me.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
yup, I know they use the flush rivets, but I wasn't sure if the one
thinner surface was supposed to be countersunk. You answered my question
though. I'll get to use my new hand dimpling tool from Avery!!
thanks
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
| Subject: | chris krieg question |
hcris- you need to make it flush of course, so it can butt against the
fuselage. dimpling is always acceptable in place of countersinking.
in this arrea, the two pieces will be held together by5 bolts, so any loss
of strength from too much countersinking is moot. I dimpled it, I think.
been a long while.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | seahcx!phred!dougm(at)travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (RV-6A wannabuild) |
Is anybody willing to take a little time to explain alodyning(sp?)?
In particular: What chemicals are used? Where can you buy these
chemicals? What surface preparation is needed? What is the
process (as detailed as you care to write about)? What parts
of an RV would benefit from alodyning? Are there references I
can look up on the process? Any other comments about alodyning
you care to make.
Thanks, Doug M.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Well, the count is up to 12 RV-6s with 3 being -6As, and 5 RV-4s.
That makes 17!! of us!!
the only other planes I know of that have more than 1 builder are
the Wheeler Express and Questair Venture and they only have 2 each.
(I have a list)
Must be something to this plane we are building.
How many of those RV-6s are being built as -6As (other than those I
already know)
So far I have myself, Doug Medema, and Martin Calsyn listed as RV-6A
builders.
Any others??
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Gang, I tried to send this message in July, but must have
mis-addressed it. I have been receiving and enjoying your
messages, just haven't been able to respond.
Anyway, it is official: July 15, 1990 I started my RV-6
project! This is 2 years, 2 months after purchasing my
tail-kit.
A friend who works for Phlogiston Products is helping, and
has some good ideas about how to ease and speed the project.
Some basic things are:
1) Make a 'plans rack' that allows you to hang your plans,
flip the pages over, move the plans from place to place, etc.
This frees table space and makes them easier to see. I built
a basic A-frame structure with a shelf to hold the manual.
Works great!
2) build 2 wing jigs to allow building both wings at once
(space allowing, of course). He finds that you can be much
quicker if you do them side-by-side (unless you dup an
error!).
3) He uses a small wooden roll-around table with a shelf
underneath and a vise with an anvil on top. This allows him
to keep some commonly used small tools near the current work
area and he can use the vise for bucking out in an open area,
without having to move back and forth to a bench.
Sunday afternoon (7/15) I went-out to the Scappoose Airport
and talked with Mike Seger, and looked at his recently
completed 180HP RV-6. He installed an electric aileron trim
that he bought as a complete, ready to install unit at last
year's Arlington, WA fly-in. It includes everything, even
the panel switch. Cost: $600.00. A little steep, but it
requires no engineering on the builder's part. (Personally,
I think the little spring pre-load mechanism in the RV-Ator
is more cost effective.)
Mike also had alot to say about why 180hp and constant speed
is THE setup for an RV-6. He is using the engine/prop that
he 'borrowed' from his ex-wife's Mooney. If you want, we can
get into the discussion about why 180hp vs 150 vs 160 in
another letter.
It is now August 22nd, and here is the +current+ status of my
project. I have completed one wing jig and installed air
lines in the garage. Last night I got the completed HS
skeletal structure bolted-onto the jig at the elevator
brackets. Tonight I finish the HS "jigging" and start
staring at the skins. I'm definitely apprehensive about
cutting into those! I called Steve Harris to ask some advice
before I riveted the ribs to the HS stabs, and he offered
some additional ideas about skins.
We had our first get-together to talk about forming a
Portland Area RV-builders group. It was great, I got many
good inputs on my project and reassuring assessments of the
work I had completed thus far (Ken Scott looked-over my HS
spars. His comment: "good workmanship , I'd fly in that
airplane"). He also demonstrated bucking rivets, and let
some guys there who hadn't actually tried it yet drive some.
We are now officially a group, and are volunteering at the
homecoming this Friday as members. Are any of you going to
make it?
So far, the project has been very enjoyable, just like
building a giant model!
Hope to hear more from you guys! Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sequent!kak(at)uunet.uu.net |
| Subject: | drill press recomendations |
Anybody have recommendations on a good drill
press to buy? or one not to buy?
Something low cost $$ since my only use
for it is the RV.
I just read Tony Bingelis' advice to not
buy a "puny" drill press, but I'd still
prefer something on the small side.
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | m15235(at)mwvm.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Forwarding "drill press recomendations" |
I am using an elcheapo Central Machinery? bench top drill press. So far
it has worked well for everything i've needed it for. I set the belts for
the slowest speed and left it. I've cut all lightening holes for the entire
wing/flap/aileron. I suppose this unit may not be deep enough (chuck
centerline to vertical support) to cut some instrument panel openings though.
I beleive this cost me about $90 from either US General or Harbor Freight
Salvage (don't remember now).
For any of you that have already sealed up the tanks:
-what kind of gloves do you recommend?
-do you still try to tape the rivet heads before driving?
-where do you get the cork gasket material for the access plate?
-do you recommend having a second pair of hands available during tank
assy?
*
* Chris
*** -----------
*** Forwarded note from sequent!kak(at)uunet.uu.net, sent 08/23/90 at 22:47:27...
*** -----------
From: sequent!kak(at)uunet.uu.net
Subject: drill press recomendations
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 90 19:43:39 PDT
Anybody have recommendations on a good drill
press to buy? or one not to buy?
Something low cost $$ since my only use
for it is the RV.
I just read Tony Bingelis' advice to not
buy a "puny" drill press, but I'd still
prefer something on the small side.
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. GRACELY" <RCG%NIHCUDEC.BITNET(at)CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> |
Still in the el cheapo category but at the other end of Chris Moody's
press is the floor model from central machinery (harbor freight catalog) for
$240. 15 speeds, 1 hp motor, no bench space, equal or better than quality of
sears, etc, selling for lot more. All are made by the dame companies in Taiwan`
,
difference is quality of the bearings.
and my RV-6 is a nonA
Rick GRacelRick Gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
Did anyone make it to Van's BBQ? I wasn't able to make it like I had planned
and was wondering how it went. Watching hte weather reports, it looks like
it could have been raining.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | another tool question |
Thanks for the info on drill presses.
I decided to go with the Sears 15" that Matt is using. Works great.
Next question:
What about a vise? How often is one needed?
Can most of the work be done by clamping parts
to my workbench?
Again this is a $$ tradeoff. Is it worth spending
$250 for an American-made vise or $50 for a cheapy import, etc.
Thanks!
Keith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
I bought a vise, and needed it a lot for filing lots of handmade brackets,
etc. it was about $50, and after 4 years has broken- the threads are stripped
and I can'ttighten it any more. sigh. guess i'd recommend the better ones.
when you do get one, make some brass jaw inserts for it to avoid scratching
the work pieces. you also use one for bending some pieces, so get a heavy one
you can use a mallet on( e.g bending the fuselage longerons).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> Next question:
>
> What about a vise? How often is one needed?
> Can most of the work be done by clamping parts
> to my workbench?
>
> Again this is a $$ tradeoff. Is it worth spending
> $250 for an American-made vise or $50 for a cheapy import, etc.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Keith
>
Well, get a big one. I've got a 5" wide jaw unit and it seems to take care of
most jobs. I bought one from Sears for it seems like about $60-70 and it
has served me well. It isn't a machinist vise, but I don't think that kind
of quality is really necessary for a bench top vise.
I did get a machinist-like vise for my drill press. I allows fine adjustment
in four directions and is fairly accurate in adjustments. I was about $90
and I have found it REALLY handy in a lot of instances. It allows you to clamp
your work tightly in the jaws, then minuetly adjust right where you want the
hole. I highly recommend this unit.
Also, with the right bit, you can do some low-level machining.
Matt Dralle
PS- My new yard is now complete as of last weekend... That means I can
actually start building something fun again - you-all know what that is, huh?
Yeah!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
How many of you are using the Avemco homebuilt-in-progress insurance??
I got it since my renters insurance does not cover amything like building
a homebuilt airplane in a garage. It does cover all of my tools, but not
the airplane. Actually, most home-owners and renters insurance does NOT
cover projects in your garage such as what we are doing. You might want
to double check yours to make sure.
It is quite reasonably priced. Only 2% of your total estimated value.
for example , I have ~$800 in my tail kit, so insurance is only $16
per year. Each time I get more stuff, I can just give them a call and they`ll
change my policy immediately.
Seems like a good idea since I`m putting all of this hard work into my
RV-6 and would be mighty upset if something happened and all my investment
was ruined.
Oh yeah, and there is no deductable.
chris krieg
disclaimer -- I don't work for Avemco, but it seems like a good way to
insure the safety of your project (no pun intended).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
well, I took the V stab out of its jig this last week. One more part done!!!
Work is going well on the right elevator. I'll have to order my Mac
electric trim soom, so I can build the left elevator.
I ordered back riveting tools from Avery at the end of last week, so I
should be riveting the stiffeners on by the end of the week if the tools
get here in time.
chris krieg
anyone else have an update??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
| Subject: | I ordered back riveting tools??? |
what on earth are these, chris? I always used a flat piece of steel and
a cupped rivet set to drive the shop head from the rear. what are these
special tools?
I am putting on my cowl cheek extensions this week, and hoping that
my prop arrives tomorrow. maybe this year, guys... BTW, if I do finish
this year, it will have been a 6 year project. moving, divorce, new
job, buying a house- life interferes greatly with building an airplane :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | quent(at)elroy.cs.iastate.edu (Quent Johnson) |
Chris Krieg writes:
> well, I took the V stab out of its jig this last week. One more part done!!!
Sounds great! Hearing of milestones like this keeps my motivation going!
> anyone else have an update??
My project has been on hold for the last month due to job related projects.
Murphy's Law has been in full effect :-)
Last weekend I attended a flight breakfast in Boone IA. As I sat eating
pancakes in the FBO hangar three RV-4s taunted me. There they were, last
year's Oshkosh grand champion and two outstanding workmanship winners parked in
a row with a hugh pile of awards including two Wright Brothers trophies.
Although I'm not interested in winning trophies, seeing those airplanes and
the results possible sure makes me want to drill and rivet nonstop until
finished!
Quent Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> Subject: insurance
> Status: RO
>
>
> How many of you are using the Avemco homebuilt-in-progress insurance??
> I got it since my renters insurance does not cover amything like building
> a homebuilt airplane in a garage. It does cover all of my tools, but not
> the airplane. Actually, most home-owners and renters insurance does NOT
> cover projects in your garage such as what we are doing. You might want
> to double check yours to make sure.
> It is quite reasonably priced. Only 2% of your total estimated value.
> for example , I have ~$800 in my tail kit, so insurance is only $16
> per year. Each time I get more stuff, I can just give them a call and they`ll
> change my policy immediately.
> Seems like a good idea since I`m putting all of this hard work into my
> RV-6 and would be mighty upset if something happened and all my investment
> was ruined.
>
> Oh yeah, and there is no deductable.
>
> chris krieg
>
> disclaimer -- I don't work for Avemco, but it seems like a good way to
> insure the safety of your project (no pun intended).
>
>
I didn't have this insurance until just a couple of weeks ago. My name finally
came up on the hanger list and to have a uncompleted homebuilt in the City
hanger, I have to have $300,000 Liability. It was about $86.00/yr. The
catch is you have to have the hull insurance policy to get the liability.
It (the hull) worked out to about $200/yr (2%). I won't be moving my project
out to the hanger for a while (1.5 years) but it is nice to have the peace of
mind that if my garage burns down, at least I can get the parts replaced.
Neither renters insurance or homeowners policies cover aircrafts or aircraft
parts. Figures.
My hull does have a deductable, though. $200 I think. I am thru Avemco.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | RE: Back riveting tools |
the back riveting tools from Avery have a special spring and plastic
retainer to hold the stiffeners (or whatever) down while you do the
back riveting. This makes sure there is no space between the two
surfaces that you are riveting together so you don`t have to risk your
finger tips. ^-- (should be an "and" there)
The other part of the order is a back riveting plate. Not too expensive,
but nice and smooth to assure you of a good looking riveting job.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Governor Mk II Update... |
The new Governor Mk II will be available in about two weeks. The Mk II
incorporates a intergrated circuit board, higher quality componets, etc.
MAC Trim will be distributing them for me. He has already sold/installed
them in the Tasumi, the unlimited class Reno racer and the new Lancair 4
prototype!
If you are interested, please contact MAC in about a week. If you have
technical questions, please feel free to write me.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Letter to the Editor - Sport Aviation... |
Now, it seems like this was already mentioned, but I'm only a couple of Sport
Aviations issues behind now. Any rate, I saw a letter to the editor
in the EAA's Sport Aviation this morning written by our own Rodney Sinclair
about rec.avaiation and it sounded like he even hinted about rv-list!!
Wow, we're stars! :-)
Rodney - if you get any calls or letters from interested people feel free
send them my way if they would like to be added to the list. Their
interest doen't even have to be limited to RVs, as we already have one
subscriber that is building a Venture, Bret Marquis. (Everyone be nice, now!)
Anyway, nice letter Rodney.
Let's see if we can get the volume up a litle bit on this list. If you never
posted, send us a status report on your project. If you have posted, send
us a status report. Have any of you found a really nifty tool you just
can't live with out. What tools have you bought and never used (I've got
a couple.) What was the neatest special addition you've seen on a RV.
Let's get some real conversations going here. It's sad I know, but a letter
to rv-list is the high point of my work day!
Ra Ra!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | OK, Matt, here is another question |
Re: air compressors
How small of a compressor can I get away with?
Ingersol-Rand has a 1hp 5 gal compressor
for a mere $150.
Will 1 hp do it?
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
well, the important thing is the flow - you really need 90psi@4-5 cfm.
then the storage tank isn't too important. a larger tank makes up for
less flow capabilities. I have used a 1hp 12 gal tank and found it barely te.
well, Matte asked for more volume on this - I just gave a progress report
yesterday on mine. what I'd like to do is start a discussion on a couple of
items- modifications and flight test.
modifications I have thought about ( AFTER I gt it flying )
aileron gap seals- found on planes like the T-28, they supposedly
improve response and efficiency of the wing.
riblets- NASA developed material for reducing drag, this is a plastic
coating with small grooves
cowl flaps
exhaust augmentor( mentioned in Bingelis book)
electronic ignition- used with great success by Klaus Savier in the CAFE
races, improvers fuel economy
pre-oiler
anyone thought about these, or any of you flying yet tried any of these?
and the ither thread I wanted to start: flight test. for me, it's coming
soon to a theater near me :) and I have done some thinking about it, and
talked to people about it. I will definately not do high speed taxiing, or
high speed runs down the runway- I will do normal taxiing, andthen just fly it.
the first flight of course will be over the airport at 5-6000', while I get
the feel of it. I'll wait for another letter to describe the things I need to
do in the flights, but you all add your comments!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
The FAA has an interesting publication about flight testing
homebuilt aircraft. Well worth reading.
Has quite a bit of information on flutter testing, taxi tests,
logging and the whole works.
If your local FSDO doesn't have a copy, I can prolly copy mine
and send it.
Bret Marquis
bam(at)trout.nosc.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: OK, Matt, here is another question |
> From: kak(at)sequent.com
> Status: RO
>
>
> Re: air compressors
>
> How small of a compressor can I get away with?
>
> Ingersol-Rand has a 1hp 5 gal compressor
> for a mere $150.
>
> Will 1 hp do it?
>
> Thanks!
>
I have a 2 hp, 20 gal unit that has served me quite well. Air pressure for
riviting is not a big deal at all, you could probably blow enough pressure
in the hose for that. Painting on the other hand takes a bit more.
I got the 2 hp because it was the largest that would still run on 120v.
If you don't like to listen to the compressor run - it is very noisy especially
if you are working in an enclosed area, then get a good sized tank. I would
recommend at least 20 gal.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | misc discussion topics |
> well, Matte asked for more volume on this - I just gave a progress report
>yesterday on mine. what I'd like to do is start a discussion on a couple of
>items- modifications and flight test.
> modifications I have thought about ( AFTER I gt it flying )
> aileron gap seals- found on planes like the T-28, they supposedly
> improve response and efficiency of the wing.
don't we already have these? is there more sealing that can be done to some benefit?
> riblets- NASA developed material for reducing drag, this is a plastic
> coating with small grooves
> cowl flaps
> exhaust augmentor( mentioned in Bingelis book)
> electronic ignition- used with great success by Klaus Savier in the CAFE
> races, improvers fuel economy
>
>
> pre-oiler
> anyone thought about these, or any of you flying yet tried any of these?
if this could supply oil under pressure during starts it could be really worthwhile.
I've always thought cold starts were the hardest thing on ac engines reducing
tbo. Is such a thing widely used? Is anyone marketing one? Ihave heard
of them used in auto racing.
On another note, I am in the middle of tank sealing now. I have consulted with
another local rv builder and done some thinking myself on a detailed sequence
of steps for doing this. But before i burden the group with it i will wait till
after the leak test (hows that for confidence?). So far i have found it to
not be as messy as i thought it would be. I found the mixing to be the most
difficult. If you can get a scale with about a 1g resolution it is easy. Get
about a 6"x6" square of scrap at least .016 place it on the scale and note its
weight. Add the base compaound till you have about as much compound as you
want to work with in the session (its 10:1 base to accelerator). Note the additional
weight. Then just add 10% more of this weight in accelerator (as close
as posible next to the base compound). A typical session for me so far has
used 20g base 2g accelerator. I have found that it sets up partially fairly
quickly (~1 hr) but then takes a day or two to fully!
set to the touch. I am using a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: OK, Matt, here is another question |
hey, I'm making do with a 3/4hp compressor. But it has a 8gal. tank.
I tried a 1hp, but it kept blowing the circuit breakers in my garage
and since I rent, there was nothing I can do about it. The 3/4hp
seems to do everything I need it to do. I do plan on adding another
tank for more capacity. If I had my way though, I'd have at least
1hp.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: trim tab position pot?? |
> Subject: trim tab position pot??
> Status: RO
>
>
> In the pictures you sent with the trim tab installation, you have a trim tab
> position pot on yours. How does this work (not being very electronically
> minded) and how would you hook it up?? I'm almost to that stage and am
> curious about the installation.
>
> chris krieg
>
Ha! You weren't suppose to see that! :-) Well, there is an Intergrated
Circuit called a LM3914 Dot/Bar Graph display. The coupled with 8 LEDs and
connected to the pot you see in the pix will give a 1 of 8 position on the trim
tab.
Radio Shack use to sell a complete unit that had the IC and the LEDs all on one
PC board for about $10. This might be the easiest way to go for the novice
electronics experimenter.
If you are seriously interested in using a setup like this, I can probably work
up some component values.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | MAC Trim Now Has Governors... |
MAC Trim should now have their first shipment of Governors. If you are
considering the purchase of a Governor, please order one now. I would like MAC
to sell a few of the Governors right away so they don't think they bought into
a dead horse.
Get those orders in!
Thanks -
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
OK, Don,
after rereading your recent article, enlighten us on what Mike Seger
said about the 180hp RV-6 and what it gives you.
This is the setup I'm looking at and am quite interested.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Paul, with regards to your flight testing question, check out Kitplanes
magazine (if you don't already subscribe to it). Starting this month
athey will have a series on flight testing.
chris krieg
RV-6A builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Trim Now Has Governors... |
> Subject: MAC Trim Now Has Governors...
>
> > MAC Trim should now have their first shipment of Governors. If
> > you are considering the purchase of a Governor, please order one
> > now. I would -like MAC to sell a few of the Governors right away
> > so they don't think they -bought into a dead horse.
> >
> > Get those orders in!
> >
> > Thanks -
> >
> > Matt Dralle
>
> Matt, I have started my right elevator, so am ready to order.
> 1) Is there a part number I should reference or will MAC know
> what I am talking about when I call?
> 2) Did you do a complete set of drawings that show exactly how
> to install the servo, access hole, modifications, etc.? How up
> to date are those drawings (if they exist)?
>
> don wentz
>
1) They should know what you are talking about. Just ask for the Governor
by Matronics.
2) Yes, I have some plans made up of the installation I did. If you want
I will send you a set. Include a mailing address.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
anyone here??
I'm nearly through with my right elevator. Work is progressing
slowly since this is my last quarter here and I'm doing my best to
graduate.
How is everyone else's project coming??
I should be ordering my wing kit ~January.
chris krieg
echo echo echo echo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Hello, Update... |
Good to hear from you Chris. You're right, there hasn't been activity
on the list in a good while. Let's change that!
Well, I actually started on my -4 again after 1.5 years vacation from
building. Wow, it was great! I need to prime the parts fro the right
aileron, then I can assemble the right flap and aileron. I started the
right bellcrank, too.
Governor Update...
I got a call from Van's Aircraft's Dick Smith the other day. I was interested
in the Governor, and wants to stock it!!! He asked for 25 units as soon
as I could deliver!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Hello, Update... |
Hey, congrats on getting back to work on the -4 and about Vans wanting
to stock the governor. I know I'll be buying one sometime.
Keep up the good work.
chris krieg
come on people, speak up!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
well, yesterday I finally finished my cowl modifications to accomodate
my o-360. wouldn't recommend this to anyone trying to finish quickly! it
took me 3 weeks to make the plug, fiberglass it and finish it. whew. but-
the extra 20 hp will be handy. also having much troubles locating the bolts
that hold the 180hp prop extension to the engine crank flange. the o-360 is
a lot of extra work, guys...
not a lot more to do here. still need to install the mags and buy the harness.
need to finish fabricating the exhaust ( I'm making a 4:1 exhaust, for better
power and sound). need to finish the airbox, and maybe rebuild the carb.
then I think I'm ready for taxii tests... maybe a month???
read an interesting thing in the latest sport av- the long eze puts air
inlets on the wheel pants to aid in the brake cooling. he didn't do it, and
his *plastic*( just like ours) lines melted, causing a brake failure. maybe
we should put these in?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | update on our rv-6 progress |
| From: | aviator(at)sequent.com |
hi folks!
we have had a slow summer on our rv-6, i got busy with working on my
house and ron got busy building his!
we have almost finished the right elevator and have started on
the left one.
we have a MAC s-8 servo and a 'governor mk II'. my partner brought up a good
point the other day; with the electric trim the way matt has built his,
the lever arm for the servo to move the trim tab is mighty short,
giving the servo not too much mechanical advantage. his concern is
that the servo has the muscles to overcome flight forces
to move the tab. anyone done the calculations on this?
also, a questions specifically for matt, regarding your trim tab
installation: can
you remove and replace the servo through that itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny :-)
access hatch? we are toying with the idea of putting a slightly bigger hatch
in the bottom of the elevator, for future service accesability.
good luck and keep rivetin'
jim harriger
- ------- End of Unsent Draft
------- End of Forwarded Message
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: update on our rv-6 progress |
> Subject: update on our rv-6 progress
> Status: RO
>
> hi folks!
>
> we have had a slow summer on our rv-6, i got busy with working on my
> house and ron got busy building his!
>
> we have almost finished the right elevator and have started on
> the left one.
>
> we have a MAC s-8 servo and a 'governor mk II'. my partner brought up a good
> point the other day; with the electric trim the way matt has built his,
> the lever arm for the servo to move the trim tab is mighty short,
Yeah, but it doesn't hang in the slip stream, aye? :-)
> giving the servo not too much mechanical advantage. his concern is
> that the servo has the muscles to overcome flight forces
> to move the tab. anyone done the calculations on this?
No calculations exactly, but there is *pluntly* of torque on the tab. I can't
really hold the tab from moving with my hands when the servo is activated
without totally distorting the whole elevator... :-)
>
> also, a questions specifically for matt, regarding your trim tab
> installation: can
> you remove and replace the servo through that itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny :-)
> access hatch? we are toying with the idea of putting a slightly bigger hatch
> in the bottom of the elevator, for future service accesability.
Yes, no problem. It's a tight squeeze, but it does fit. I really wanted to
keep the hole as small as possible to keep the strength up in that area.
You could make it 1/8" or so larger I suppose, but its not really necessary.
>
> good luck and keep rivetin'
>
> jim harriger
>
>
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rodney Sinclair <rodney(at)math.ucla.edu> |
| Subject: | Project and drill press |
It looks like I won't be able to buy plans (i.e. graduate) until the
winter quarter. I am making progress on my research though.
Does anyone have recommendations for a drill press. We need a large throat
(9" to handle the sheet of metal), a large number of speeds, a good solid
chuck, etc. We've seen one at Harbor Freight and Salvage with a 3/4 hp motor,
16 speeds (170 rpm to 3??? rpm), a big chuck, good-sized floor-stand, and
so on (I forgot the manufacturer). Does anyone have experience with
HFS's drill presses?
rodney(at)math.ucla.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | seahcx!phred!dougm(at)travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (RV-6A wannabuild) |
| Subject: | Corrosion Protection |
I picked the following off Usenet (rec.aviation). Does anyone have
any comments about corrosion protection in general?
>LPS-3, as far as I know, is a WD-40-like lightweight penetrating oil which
>protects metal surfaces by sealing them against the atmosphere; however, it
>was designed as a lubricant not a protectant. I heard a variation on its
>sort of varnish to hold the oil against metal surfaces.
>However, having looked into this in some detail and asked around at Oskhosh,
>it is pretty clear that this new ACF-50 treatment is categorically better.
>(The Cessna Pilots Association got so hyped about it that they became a
>franchise for it). I bought a spray can of ACF-50 at OSH, and have used it
>on the parts I can get to. It is truly remarkable stuff, in that you can
>see it neutralize existing corrosion as well as cover bare metal. The
>applicators that professional shops use generate a fine mist fog (much finer
>than the spray can), so to do a whole airplane right requires a few hours
>time at a dealer, for a few hundred bucks. I am planning to have the whole
>airplane treated soon.
>Dan Masys
>masys(at)mcs.nlm.nih.gov
Also, I never got any replies to my message about alodyning (sp?).
Does anyone even have a reference I can go to to learn more
about it? Thanks.
Doug M.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
| Subject: | Corrosion protection |
The chemical of choice seems to be the ACF-50. It should be
applied after you paint since it will be quite difficult
to paint afterwards since the chemical creates quite a barrier.
I've heard only one caution about it. While not many RV's have
autopilots, caution is required to avoid spraying the autopilot
spindles and clutches since the stuff acts as a lubricant.
Some avionics shops have used the stuff to save radios that
have been submerged in sea water. It doesn't hurt the components
and removes the sea water and contamination from the boards. They
just dunk the whole radio in a bucket of the solution and leave
it there a while. Afterwards they let the radios drip dry and often
require no other repair.
Considered pretty amazing stuff. I know of a Mooney that had an FBO
do a complete treatment on his plane. He mentioned that it removed
all the corrosion, caused no problems, but did drip out of gaps and
holes for a couple of weeks after it was treated.
Bret Marquis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. GRACELY" <RCG%NIHCUDEC.BITNET(at)CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> |
I bought the Harbor Freight floor model drill press and think it is a great
tool for 200+ $. You may noticve that all of the Taiwan made presses (which is
`
allmost
all sold regardless of brand) are very similar. The Harbor freight press has
given me no problems, and I have used it for many jobs in addition to RV-6
building. I look forward to having it after the project is over. I also found`
out, like many tools, the only difference between the Harbor freight $240 model`
and production models (including the one in the HFS catalog) is the quality of
the bearings. I don't expect to wear out the non production bearings.
The other way to go is the small HFS bench press for under $100. Several local`
builders, including Chris Moody on this net, have/are using it for all RV neede`
d
drilling.
I bought the bigger one due to lack of bench scpae and other, partly unanticipa`
ted
needs and have never regretted it.
Rick Gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)CSE.OGI.EDU |
TWIMC:
Please add my name to the RV mailing list. Thanks.
Michael A. Goldsmith
cse.ogi.edu!mag386.uucp!mag
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)iastate.edu |
| Subject: | Progress report and a question or two... |
Major development ... HS is out of the jig and construction of VS is
well under way. Its a good thing we had that net.discussion about the nuts
on the all-thread and how to get them out of the HS - I'm sure I'd have
blown them off and ended up trying to dig the nuts out later. Instead, I
removed the inner nuts just before riveting. The outer nuts were
sufficient from there on.
Also, I was able to get the HS together without the use of any
pop-rivets. It just took some judicious placement of clecoes and a
fairly tight squeeze for the arm with the bucking bar.
The pneumatic rivet squeezer was a major boon! Finished off the
exposed edges of the HS in record time. It is also an incredible time
saver when it comes to dimpling the spar and rib flanges. Course, not
having paid for the thing, I have a skewed view of the cost/benefit.
Its gotten rather unpleasant here for working outside (our shop was in
an unheated attached garage). And the comments from my wife wrt the
frost on the car were less than subtle. So, the entire shop moved into
my basement. Didn't turn out to be nearly as cramped as I had worried
it might be. Our entire 119"-long jig fit just fine. Quite
comfortable, but I have no illusions about getting a wing around the
corners down there. HS negotiated it fine though (Hmmm, how long is
that wing after all?).
Now that I'm indoors, I have a problem though...How to prime? I'm ready
to prime the VS components and since my furnace and hot-water heater are
in the vicinity, concentrations of VariPrime in the air just won't
cut it. Can anyone recommend alternative (less flammable) primers.
I've been using very light coats of VariPrime on all (incl alclad)
parts, though theoretically no VS parts require priming (excepting the
hinge brackets, the VS is all alclad if I recall). How many net.builders
are omitting any priming except where required?
Martin R. Calsyn martin(at)iastate.edu
Project Vincent ga.mrc(at)isumvs.bitnet
Iowa State University -- Ames, IA 50010
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
hey martin- I don't know about flammability, but I found a primer that
is better in all respects to variprime. it is a metal etching epoxy
2 part primer, and is impervious to all solvents( unlike variprime)
and cheaper to boot. a 2 gal kit of super koropon from Desoto in berkeley
costs about $30.
________________________________________________________________________________
<9011142040.AA05063(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com>
> hey martin- I don't know about flammability, but I found a primer that
> is better in all respects to variprime. it is a metal etching epoxy
> 2 part primer, and is impervious to all solvents( unlike variprime)
> and cheaper to boot. a 2 gal kit of super koropon from Desoto in berkeley
> costs about $30.
I think there is another problem. I've been told that
the self-etching primers will also etch-out your furnace innards.
Another reason to paint out of doors...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Progress report and a question or two... |
Well, I am working in an unheated, unattached garage. To heat the sucker, I
use a small heater that uses oil inside a radiator-like enclosure. Its nice
because its flameless and has no internal parts to be corroded by the spray.
It uses a heating element that is completely enclosed within the radiator, so
there is no problem with the overspray coming into contact with the element.
Since the garage isn't very well ventilated, I just crank the heater up all
the way to get the garage and the parts warm. Then I open up the door a little.then
turn the heater off and the fan (brushless) on, and spray. If I am quick
enough about it, I can paint what I need to with minimal heat loss. Once the
spray has settled down or been dispersed enbough by the fan, I turn the
heater back on. I'm quite sure I could just leave the heater on, but why
take the chances. I haven't had any problems with the paint not drying
properly.
As far as paint goes, I use a combination of two kinds. Variprime and regular
old zinc chromate spray can stuff.
I use the Variprime in warmer months when the ventilation is best. I use it
on the main structural parts (spars, etc) and rely on the spray can zinc
chromate for other parts.
In the winter, I pretty much stick to spray can zinc chromate because it
is less flammable and noxious.
Usually, the only real priming I do is where it is absolutely necessary
(such as non-alclad pieces and steel parts) and any surface where two parts
join or butt up against each other.
chris
chris krieg
chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | New Member (me) and Primers |
Hi.
I am Michael Goldsmith (Michael, please. Not Mike!). I picked up my
empenage kit at Van's 1 week ago.
Last Saturday, the local (Portland, OR) RV Builders group met at a member's
hanger. He showed us his HS perpared with a very unusual-looking primer:
Kind of a gold-anodized look. It was a Ditzler (PPG) product DZ-1751 (I think),
called a wash primer.
I spoke with a Ditzler distributer here in Hillsboro who recommended strongly
against using this primer (we did verify the actual #, but I've left it at
work). Their claim was that it is not particularly
scratch-resistant and was designed to be top-coated. Without a topcoat, he
claimed, it would only last about 2 years, even on interior surfaces.
Their recommended primer was DP-50 (the DP-40 family. 40 is green, 50 is
grey. Other colors available). This primer was also recommeded to me by
the Fuller-O'Brien people.
Any comments?
BTW, it is true that metal etching primers wreak havoc with furnace innards.
It *is* called metal etching, after all.....
Regards,
Michael A. Goldsmith
Note to Steve Harris: You might put the info on the DZ-1751 in the newsletter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)iastate.edu |
I have a similar heater to the one Chris describes. While the element
is sealed in a radiator-shaped mineral-oil filled container, the
thermostat is not and can produce a noticable arc - a good reason not to
leave the heater on while painting. Even on full tilt, I would worry
about the possibility of the thermo cutting out and renovating my garage
for me.
I've been extremely happy with the VariPrime, though I have nothing else
to compare it with. Properly applied, it seems very resiliant with a
strong bond to the metal. It is awful nasty stuff to work with though.
I believe I'll probably proceed by limiting my priming to non-alclad
parts and any scratched area of alclad (which I normally soften with
scotch-brite). I'll give the generic zinc-chromate a try as it seems
more appropriate for the painting environment I have now.
Another option is to paint in batches out in the garage using Chris's
system of preheating the garage. There are too few parts in the VS to
justify setting up the garage, but I can see where it would be worth it
to get to use a resiliant etching primer on a larger batch of parts.
Here in Iowa, corrosion is not quite as large a problem as it is for
folks on the various salty coasts. Although, priming is not something
you can easily postpone til later, and it does have a real peace-of-mind
and cash-value payoff.
In any case, its been in the high 60's the last couple days and if it
holds out to the weekend, I'll get to prime in the garage anyway -
keepin' my fingers crossed.
For our new member's sake (and my feeble recollection - I know its been
posted in some form) how many 6 vs 6A builders do we have and what kit
are people working on? I'm working on a 6A and am midway through the
VS.
Martin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
I forgot to say *what* empenage I picked up. Its a 6.
Michael A. Goldsmith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
I'm working on an RV4, for our new folks. actually, I'm about done.
If anyone knows where I could find some Bendix S4LN-21 mags for free, I would
be done :)
actually, there's still little work to be done on the cowl modifications
( 180hp brings an extra price) and I also need mag harness, and plugs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Who's On RV-LIST... |
Here's the current list of subscribers on RV-LIST. If you would like
individual address, write.
There's 19 now - wow! Matt
(RV-6A Chris Krieg)
(RV-6 Jim Harriger)
(RV-6 Rodney Sinclair)
(RV-4 Steve Harris)
(RV-4 Ed Wischmeyer)
(RV-4 Matt Dralle)
(RV-6A Martin R. Calsyn)
(RV-6 Quent Johnson)
(RV-4 Paul Stafford)
(RV-6 Chris Moody)
(RV-6 Deene Ogden)
(RV-6 Laurens V.Ackerman)
(RV-6A Doug Medema)
(RV-6 Don Wentz 503-696-7185)
(RV-6 Rick Gracely 301-496-5238)
(RV-? John Perrin)
(RV-6 Keith A. Kelleman)
(Venture Bret Marquis)
(RV-6 Michael Goldsmith)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
My experience with DP-50 is that it is not very scratch resistant
either. It's metal-etching capability is very limited. Too bad,
cause it sure looks good on!
I am doing my tail kit with the DP-50, but will change to
something else when the DP runs-out. I liked the look of the
gold wash primer, but it sounds like it may not be the right
thing either.
don wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | quent(at)elroy.cs.iastate.edu (Quent Johnson) |
That heater Chris mentioned sounds like the way to go!
I just read the Sport Plane Builder column in Sport Aviation.
Tony used one of those low pressure high volume turbine paint
sprayers. They seem like the perfect thing for us garage bound
builders. An A&P near here swears by them. He used a Croix
to paint a Christen Eagle which turned out very well. I visited
the Croix booth at Oshkosh (inside one of those warehouse buildings
packed with people). They were using water based paint to be safe.
I tried it and was amazed. I have little paint spraying experience
but was able to avoid runs and there is almost no overspray.
The only problem with them is they cost around $700.
Quent Johnson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "R. GRACELY" <RCG%NIHCUDEC.BITNET(at)CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> |
| Subject: | primers, cold weather |
FEARLESS LEADER, I am changing from bitnet to an internet address of
GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV
I hope this switch will make things easier for you. It certainly will for me.
We need more information on the two part epoxy self-etching primer. How can
we East Coast folks get our hands on the stuff? What color is it?, Any post-mi`
x
delay?, Pot life?
A possible alternative to heating up a whole garage to spray a few parts, based`
on the observation that the air out of a spray gun comes out cold any way, and
supported by a professional airplane restorer in this area:
If the temperature is above freezing and you have a basement outside door, just`
get your warm part ready to paint inside, perhaps by doing the enamel reducer
wash outside and then bringing it back in. Then hang the little thing on a
hanger, and with it in one hand and your gun in the other, step outside, spray
it, and then either hang it outside for a few minutes or immediately bring it
back in. If no direct outside access, you can leave the hose outside and walk
out thru the living room with the gun and part(s) in a dry wall bucket.
Rick Gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Yeah, hopefully, when I am ready to paint my 6A, I'll be able to buy one
of the Croix painting units. I`m picky enough about paint jobs that I
want to be able to do it myself.
chris krieg.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Painting and Primer |
yeah, Chris. I know what you mean about paint jobs. I've seen too many
"professional" paint jobs, where there's overspray inside the engine compartment
and all the nuts and bolts are painted too. have you decided if you'll paint
a piece at a time, or all assembled? I'm sure you know the tradeoffs.
I've painted a piece at a time, on the ramp. results are ok. wish I'd had
access to a booth.
As for brands. I've used Desoto, Deft, and DuPont. Deft has the least
"built-in finish", meaning that the Deft flowed out the best. I think if I had
it to do again, I'd use acrylic enamel rather than poly. it sprays easier,
flows out better, is less toxic( a little), and is cheaper by far. I don't think
the hardness advantage is that great.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
I'll probably put the whole thing together to make sure everything fits
properly and works properly, then take the whole thing back apart and
paint most things separately. I know this will take more time, but what
the heck, I will have put too much attention into building it to then go
and "just" paint the thing. I want to be able to know I have put a lot of`
detail into it, and hopefully others will notice too.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven L Harris <steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Painting -- low pressure high volume sprayers |
Are the high volume, low pressure sprayers something that can be rented.
I really don't want to buy one to just paint one airplane. Even if they
can be rented, are they easily damaged such that you really wouldn't want
to rent one anyway?
Another idea might be for a group purchase, such as an EAA chapter or a
builders group. $600 split 20 ways doesn't sound quite so bad!
Progress Update:
I just finished installing the rear baffles on my fuel tanks. I am
going to finish sloshing them tonight and plan to pressure test them (very
LOW pressure, maybe from a balloon) this weekend. Wish me luck, I DON'T
care to have any leaks.
One (nearly catastrophic) lesson: I put pieces of masking tape over the
tank vent lines so that the slosh wouldn't run in a plug the lines. I thought
that I could just reach in through the filler cap and remove the tape when I
was done sloshing. Well, it seems that when the slosh hardens on and around
the tape, it becomes VERY difficult to remove, especially with large hands and
a small filler hole! I ended up bending some forceps to reach in and around and
peel the pieces off in many tiny chunks. I have since heard that a better way
is
to just leave the vent line open and occasionally blow the vent line clear with
compressed air (make sure to remove the filler cap to let the air escape).
Steve Harris
PS -- lets keep the traffic up on the mailing list, this has been very enjoyable
lately.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
Is there more info avail on the 'Desoto' primer that was
mentioned recently? I wonder where to look for it in Oregon.
don wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
I'll probably put the whole thing together to make sure everything fits
properly and works properly, then take the whole thing back apart and
paint most things separately. I know this will take more time, but what
the heck, I will have put too much attention into building it to then go
and "just" paint the thing. I want to be able to know I have put a
-lot of`
detail into it, and hopefully others will notice too.
chris krieg
Since most airports won't allow painting in the hangars (mine won't),
if you want to paint it yourself, you will probably have to do it
'apart', in your garage or driveway. I agree with chris that you
may want to put it all together first, then back apart for
painting. One guy did this and hasn't stopped flying it long
enough to get it painted.
Painting it your self is worth it if you can learn enough about
the processes, as the going rate for a good RV paint job around
here is pushing $3K! I intend to 'hire' a couple of friends who
are professionals, one does prep work, the other does the
spraying. You may be able to find a 'hired gun' to do the actual
spraying if you are a little leery about it.
don wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
I have been reading the comments on priming with interest. Not wanting
to get lung cancer with zinc chromate, not wanting to blow up my
garage in winter ( I live inthe Chicago area) and not wanting a wing to
fall off after a few years of exposure to the "harsh midwest" I have
come to a standstill. Talking to some of my car painting friends I have
decided to install an explosion proof fan in a wall, put some plastic
in the corner of the garage and filter into it. The heater will be on the
other side of the garage. I will use Veriprime. No fumes to ignite
at the heater because of air flow. Am I full of hot air or is
this a workable solution to the "prime in the nothern climes
garage without blowing up" problem?
Laurens Ackerman
(Any advice welcome)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
clout!rpslmc!rpslmc.edu!lackerma(at)gargoyle.uchicago.edu
I have been reading the comments on priming with interest. Not wanting
to get lung cancer with zinc chromate, not wanting to blow up my
garage in winter ( I live inthe Chicago area) and not wanting a wing to
fall off after a few years of exposure to the "harsh midwest" I have
come to a standstill. Talking to some of my car painting friends I have
decided to install an explosion proof fan in a wall, put some plastic
in the corner of the garage and filter into it. The heater will be
-on the
other side of the garage. I will use Veriprime. No fumes to ignite
at the heater because of air flow. Am I full of hot air or is
this a workable solution to the "prime in the nothern climes
garage without blowing up" problem?
Laurens Ackerman
I think that is a great solution. You will be protecting the rest of
your garage from overspray, and yourself from fumes. Besides, If
Veriprime is good enough for Van, it should be good enough for
you. If I don't find a suitable alternative, I will be
switching from DP-40 to Veriprime.
Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | New BBS (Trial Basis) |
I've just brought up a XENIX-based BBS on my machine here at home. It
is dedicated to RV Builders. I'm working with Ken Scott at Van's and
eventually hope to get their help in providing some of the content and
answers to questions builders post. Basicly, this board will only be
a success if it is used.
For the moment, its a trial run. Those of you close to PDX (or further
if you don't mind the phone bills), please try it out. Feedback on how
to organize the message bases would be greatly appreciated.
Phone: (503) 293-9218
Baud: 300/1200/2400/9600 (Trailblazer Plus)
COM: 8N1
login: bbs
password:
If you have problems or comments, leave a message on the board or
e-mail me at cse.ogi.edu!mag386.uucp!mag.
Thanks for your help. In a week or so I'll post a message to rec.aviation
to try and help build the user base. For now, consider yourselves beta-testers.
Thanks again.
Michael A. Goldsmith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> To: ogicse!matronics.com!rv-list
> Subject: New BBS (Trial Basis)
> Cc: mag
>
>
> I've just brought up a XENIX-based BBS on my machine here at home. It
> is dedicated to RV Builders. I'm working with Ken Scott at Van's and
> eventually hope to get their help in providing some of the content and
> answers to questions builders post. Basicly, this board will only be
> a success if it is used.
>
> For the moment, its a trial run. Those of you close to PDX (or further
> if you don't mind the phone bills), please try it out. Feedback on how
> to organize the message bases would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Phone: (503) 293-9218
> Baud: 300/1200/2400/9600 (Trailblazer Plus)
> COM: 8N1
>
> login: bbs
> password:
>
> If you have problems or comments, leave a message on the board or
> e-mail me at cse.ogi.edu!mag386.uucp!mag.
>
> Thanks for your help. In a week or so I'll post a message to rec.aviation
> to try and help build the user base. For now, consider yourselves beta-testers.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Michael A. Goldsmith
>
>
It is possible that I could get Roxanne to feed any of the rv-list discussions
to your BBS, but I wouldn't exactly know how to do that. I would have to
ask around. Does your BBS have this capability? Kermit, etc?
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | BBS/RV-List Crossfeed |
>To: ogicse!cse.ogi.edu!mag%mag386
>Subject: BBS...
>Cc: ogicse!matronics.com!rv-list
>It is possible that I could get Roxanne to feed any of the rv-list discussions
>to your BBS, but I wouldn't exactly know how to do that. I would have to
>ask around. Does your BBS have this capability? Kermit, etc?
>Matt
The BBS software I am running is shareware for which I have the sources.
One of the enhancements I'm looking at is some kind of cross-feed between
the BBS messages and the RV List. I've a pretty good idea how to do it
in a crude sort of way, but I'd like to try to make it appear seamless to
the non-computer-types likely to use the BBS instead of e-mail.
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
>
> >To: ogicse!cse.ogi.edu!mag%mag386
> >Subject: BBS...
> >Cc: ogicse!matronics.com!rv-list
>
> >It is possible that I could get Roxanne to feed any of the rv-list discussions
> >to your BBS, but I wouldn't exactly know how to do that. I would have to
> >ask around. Does your BBS have this capability? Kermit, etc?
>
> >Matt
>
> The BBS software I am running is shareware for which I have the sources.
> One of the enhancements I'm looking at is some kind of cross-feed between
> the BBS messages and the RV List. I've a pretty good idea how to do it
> in a crude sort of way, but I'd like to try to make it appear seamless to
> the non-computer-types likely to use the BBS instead of e-mail.
>
> Michael
>
I'll be more happy to help in anyway I can. Let me know...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: bbs-internet interoperability |
> Subject: bbs-internet interoperability
> Status: R
>
> If the bbs is on xenix machine would the uucp mechanism work? Isn't
> that designed for periodic transfers via dialup?
>
> Chris Moody
>
Yeah, that's a good idea. Michael - tell us you are running a *real* operating
system (real, as in UNIX, not xenix!)???
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | those pesky fuel tanks |
I have just completed the fuel tanks and leak tested them with air. This
took me a bit longer than i anticipated. As with most areas of the RV I
found that i spend a good bit of time just figuring out the most logical
construction sequence. For what its worth i will list the sequence that
another local RV builder, Dick Creswell, and i came up with. This sequence
picks up at the point where sealing of the tanks begins. Assumes all cutting
and drilling is done.
About mixing sealant. I found mixing by weight 10:1 ratio is infinitely
better than byvolume. I don't really know how you would do volume since
sealant will be hopelesly stuck to whatever you measure with. I managed
to borrow a lab scale from local school with .1 gm resolution. I set a piece
of scrap aluminum on the scale and added the proper amounts of each component
right on the same surface to make mixing easy. I found that for most
sessions about 40g of sealant was enough except for the session where rear
baffle is attached which i mixed about 70g.
1)Seal/rivet nose plates and attach angle to root and tip tank ribs. I
highly recommend making these plates for these ribs and taking the time to
make sure they fit with minimal clearance. Remember to clean and rough all
surfaces before applying sealant. I used acetone.
2)Seal/rivet reinforcing ring/platenuts to root rib
3)Seal/backrivet tank stiffeners--make sure clearance exists -especially
with root rib-for drainage of water. Make sure sealant gets around outer
dimpled portion of rivet holes.
4)Clecoe (no sealant) all ribs in place except tip rib
5)Seal/rivet filler ring. Remember to rivet small tab on aft side to
retain vent line.
6)Seal/rivet quick drain flange. BTW when drilling the flange keep far enough
to the outer edge to allow clearance for the countersink cutter--you will have
to remove the guide from the microstop tool. Also i used the backrivet set
to rivet it on.
7)Seal/rivet root and tip ribs. For good measure i clecoed rear baffle
during process to insure alignment. I was not careful to maintain the 1/2"
overhang off the root rib specified in drawing when i drilled the ribs.
________________________________________________________________________________
for installing platenuts for wing/fuse fairing (at least on RV6).
8)Seal/rivet remaining ribs
9)Install vent fitting with sealant. I used a fabricated .063 washer for
fitting since rib alone is not thick enough. Then install vent line through
fairleads in ribs securing end in tab aft of filler ring.
10)Seal/rivet small plates on aft portion of root and tip ribs at upper and
lower corners. The idea is to maintain a tight clearance at the corner
with the skin and rear baffle since rib corners were releived a bit prior
to forming. Dont want the sealant to have to span too much gap.
11) Apply extra proseal fillet between skin and root and tip ribs inside.
12)Apply 2-3 coats of sloshing compound with paint brush around all seams
and rivet lines.
13)Install fuel sender access plate assy with cork gasket. Using a
collapsible antenna as a punch for the holes on the gasket worked real well.
One of the antenna segments will almost certainly be the right size. Antenna
must be dissasembled/sacrificed of course.
14)Adjust fuel sender for proper swing as per sender instructions. Real
tough to do this after rear baffle is on. This seems to take a bit of
trial and error but you'll get there.
15)Install rear baffle
16)Slosh rear of tank. I found that reused slosh can tend to thicken and
slightly lose its effectiveness to reach all areas. Does anyone know if
there is a way to thin it?
All together i think i used about 80% each of the sealant and slosh i got
from van.
Also (i didn't do it but i thought) it would be nice to install a tab or
some indicator near the filler cap that could indicate a known level of fuel
less than full say 1/2 to 2/3. Archer i used to fly had a tab that when it
was awash with fuel told you you had about 2/3 tank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | BBS-Internet Interoperability |
>> Subject: bbs-internet interoperability
>> Status: R
>>
>> If the bbs is on xenix machine would the uucp mechanism work? Isn't
>> that designed for periodic transfers via dialup?
>>
>> Chris Moody
>>
>
>Yeah, that's a good idea. Michael - tell us you are running a *real* operating
>system (real, as in UNIX, not xenix!)???
>
>Matt
>
>
I resemble that remark. Yes, I am running XENIX, but it has some real
*advanced* features. Like UUCP for example. HD-UUCP, even!
The problem is more organizational. The BBS s/w supports multiple discussion
groups. Our list has essential one. So there is a many-to-one and a
one-to-many mapping question. I could, for example, feed all of the
rv-list messages into a single discussion group, but what about the
other direction.
The second problem is that the BBS messages are of a fixed length. This is
currently 19 lines, but is easy to change (at the expense of disk space).
When a rv-list message comes in and it is longer than 19 lines, what do
I do? It would have to be broken up in some meaningful way.
I am open to suggestions. The interoperability of the two media is
important to getting this BBS off the ground. A BBS starves and dies
unless it gets to a critical mass of users, and this group is a good
way to help get towards that goal.
BTW, this system has been down for 1 week due to a disk crash. Replacement
drive has been installed and we're on the air again.
Michael
PS: Notice how easily this message has exceeded 19 lines.......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | 3M Scotchbrite Surface Conditioning Disks |
I just got a set of the Scotchbrite disks from Avery. They are
*wonderful* for scratch removal and leave a beautiful polished surface.
I may never use sandpaper again......
Also, Black & Decker make a 1/2" mandrel (1/4" shaft) for use with a
electric drill. It works just fine for my 6" 3M C&P wheel in the
drill press and only costs a couple of bucks.
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 2 dumb questions |
How do you decide what surface scratchs need to be
sanded out ? I heard Ken Scott say, I believe,
that he only sands out scratches that lead to an edge
Opinions? Hints?
The other question has to do with riveting. What
size drill bit do you use for what size rivet?
I drilled with a 1/8" bit for 1/8" rivets, but
the rivets always fit VERY tightly -- many gun hits
to insert. Should I be using one size higher drill
bit ? I read Tony Bingelis's recomendation to use
one size smaller bit when dimpling, but read nothing else
on dirll bit size.
Opinions? Hints?
Thanks,
Keith
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | There are no dumb questions |
>The other question has to do with riveting. What
>size drill bit do you use for what size rivet?
>I drilled with a 1/8" bit for 1/8" rivets, but
>the rivets always fit VERY tightly -- many gun hits
>to insert. Should I be using one size higher drill
>bit ? I read Tony Bingelis's recomendation to use
>one size smaller bit when dimpling, but read nothing else
>on dirll bit size.
>Opinions? Hints?
>
>Thanks,
>Keith
According to 'Aircraft Sheet Metal', one of the books recommended
in the RV construction manual, the following hole sizes are given
in table 4-16 on page 36:
Rivet Diam 1/16 3/32 1/8 5/32 3/16 1/4
Hole Diam 0.067 0.096 0.1285 0.159 0.191
0.257
Drill Size 51 41 30 21 11 F
Note that Avery supplies a #40 drill for use with 3/32" rivets.
This produces a 0.098" hole. The rule given on page 28 is that
"The hole for a solid-shank rivet is drilled approximately .002
to .004 of an inch larger than the nominal rivet diameter."
This book is chock full of other usefull info and tables.
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | 'Wet' Rivetting? |
So now I've drilled some nice new holes in my previously
primed 2024-T4 for rivets. What do I do about the resulting
exposed metal? Does one dip the rivets in
primer and install wet? Does this make a mess of the
riveting tool? Inquiring minds want to know.....
Thanks,
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
>To: ogicse!matronics.com!rv-list
>Subject: 'Wet' Rivetting?
>
>
>So now I've drilled some nice new holes in my previously
>primed 2024-T4 for rivets. What do I do about the resulting
>exposed metal? Does one dip the rivets in
>primer and install wet? Does this make a mess of the
>riveting tool? Inquiring minds want to know.....
>Michael
Michael, I used to prime BOTH sides of the skin after drilling/prep
was completed, to insure that the holes were primered. However,
I noticed that when removing clecoes while riveting, the primer
was forever getting scratched/scraped-off anyway. So, I asked
Van about this at the last group meeting (Vernonia) because I
noticed that Mike Seger wasn't priming his rivets. Van said
"priming the holes isn't required, the main concern is the skin
contact areas." When you think about it, your final paint is
also going to seal the rivet heads anyway. So from now on, I
won't ruin the look of my outer skin by putting primer stripes
all over it.
Besides, I have now learned to do as much prep as possible before
priming, and in most cases can go straight from the paint booth
to riveting, no drilling after priming.
As for drill sizes, Jerry Springer told me to use #40 (3/32), #30
(1/8), and #12 drills for most holes. I agree that you should
use a slightly smaller size for dimpled holes to get a tighter
fit. I bought some drills from Avery. Split-point and they last
very well. Not cheap, but saving a couple bucks on bits ain't
worth it if your holes aren't clean and you have to work at it to
make them.
Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
Keith, I was able to find some numbered drills at Ace harware
stores. They are OK, but don't last as long as the Avery bits.
Great to 'get you by' while you order some.
Michael, I was trying to get on the BBS last week, now I know why
I couldn't! I agree that 19 lines probably won't cut it...
I was at the Boeing Surplus store (Renton Wa.) the other day.
got some neat sanding disks/pads that screw together. Also got a
pair of Clecoe pliers (couldn't resist for 50 cents!). Turns-out
they are better that the 5 buck pairs I got from Avery and ATS.
For you local (Portland area) builders, my tail jig is open now,
and I would be happy to let anyone bring their HS/VS over to use
it. Might also save you lots of time figuring-out how to do the
crossbar and supports, how to mark the skin for holes, etc. Let
me know if anyone wants to use it.
Project update: HS, VS, rt elev done, rudder 60% done.
Don W.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Paul, thanks for the info.
I called Desoto and this is what they had to say:
Super Koropon - PN K515-700
Color - light green
Pot life - 8 hours
clean-up - MEK or similar
surface pre-prep - alodyne (not required, but recommended
"for maximum corrosion proofing")
Cost - 2 gallon kit of primer/activator
1 to 5 kits - $48
6 to 11 kits - $35
Paul, the price has gone-up (although still quite reasonable)
since you bought yours. I assume that you are NOT alodyning and
still are very satisfied with the results?
What do you use for surface prep? A wipe-down with Acetone or
some other cleaner?
What do you use for cleanup (just the sound of MEK makes me
nervous)?
How long do you let it cure before you assembled freshly primered
parts?
Anyone in the portland area interested in splitting a kit? 2
gallons is alot of primer.
Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
>
>
> Paul, thanks for the info.
>
> I called Desoto and this is what they had to say:
>
> Super Koropon - PN K515-700
> Color - light green
> Pot life - 8 hours
> clean-up - MEK or similar
> surface pre-prep - alodyne (not required, but recommended
> "for maximum corrosion proofing")
> Cost - 2 gallon kit of primer/activator
> 1 to 5 kits - $48
> 6 to 11 kits - $35
>
> Paul, the price has gone-up (although still quite reasonable)
> since you bought yours. I assume that you are NOT alodyning and
> still are very satisfied with the results?
>
> What do you use for surface prep? A wipe-down with Acetone or
> some other cleaner?
>
> What do you use for cleanup (just the sound of MEK makes me
> nervous)?
>
> How long do you let it cure before you assembled freshly primered
> parts?
>
> Anyone in the portland area interested in splitting a kit? 2
> gallons is alot of primer.
> Don Wentz
>
How about Varaprime? I have had very good luck with it and it very easy to
use. Clean up is no worse than anything else. Seems to stick very well.
I get it here locally in quarts for about $20 + $10 for the hardner.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Varaprime and Other Ramblings... |
>
> hi Matt
>
> I used variprime, and was not happy for a couple of reasons. one was the
> cost- $80/gallon. the otherwas that it didn't seem to protect as well-
> MEK will wipe it right off. I felt that the toxic-air bay area needed maximum
> protection, nd looked around. variprime works fine, I just feel that DeSoto
> stuff is better, for cheaper.
>
> You might also consider top coat compatibility, too. Will you be using
> dupont or some other paint?
>
I'm just using the Vara on the inside and what not. I will more than likly
use a dupont product for the cockpit area painting. Outside, I'm not sure
yet. I havn't decided wheither I'm gonna try painting it myself or bite
the bullet and have it done. I potentially have a pretty nice area to do
the work in so I might just try it for the experience.
Here's the good news. I'm finally back working on the -4 full time now! (Well
when I'm not at my regular job... ;-( ) I was off for 2+ weeks over
xmas and got a lot done. I finished the wings, built the Fuse jig (wew), and
started the fuse!!! The fuse has been a lot of fun so far. The written
instructions kind of suck, though. I'm doing alright, however. I just sent
back my manual flap actuator to exchange it for the electric one. Also ordered
the motor kit.
I've also ordered another tail kit. I was/am really dissapointed in the way the
first on came out, so I just bit the bullet. In the long run I'm sure I'll
be much happier.
So how is your -4 coming along? You should ready to fly pretty quick now,
hum? There are 2 flying RVs at Livermore and a third that is just about ready
to go. Hopefully I'll be ready by Summer '92.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Paul's Response... |
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 91 15:18:19 pst
From: Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com>
Hi Matt,
I am almost ready to fly. I got my mags a week ago, and am intalling them
this friday.
only need to finish up the air box and get the ignition harness and plugs
to ru nthe engine. probably a week or so more on various things, and take care
of paperwork. need to fuel it up and run a fuel flow test- maybe next week.
as you see- mighty close, but not just yet. for sure, I should be flying
in february, maybe have the time flown off by end of february. glad to hear
you are back in business. another tail!? fyou glutton for punishment! I actually
built another horizontal, but held it there. yes- the fuse was much fun. call me
for some hints on riveting, etc. bye for now.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
| From: | bam(at)bang.UUCP (Bret A. Marquis) |
Subject: FAA bbs for experimental aircraft
Date: 10 Jan 91 01:24:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
According to an article in Light Plane Maintenance, the
FAA has a free dial up BBS with service reports and
and accident/incident reports about experimental aircraft.
Normal category aircraft are not included.
The bbs number: 800/426-3814. 1200/2400 baud 8/N/1
through Friday and 24 hours on weekends.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Paul's Response... |
Great to hear all of that enthusiasm in your projects! At this
point it is hard to imagine being as close as you are Paul.
Matt, for what it's worth, Van now offers electric trim kits for
both the elevator and aileron. The kits include drawings and the
aluminum (partially prepared), screws, rivets, etc. They list in
the NEW optional parts catalog for $26 and $13 resp. Servos
extra of course.
Van basically replaced the cable bracket with the servo,
retaining the external horn (unfortunately). I went with his
just because the supplied materials made it easier (less
difficult?) to install.
I will send you copies of the drawings.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | RV-4 Fuselage - What Fun... |
Hello All!
Thought I might relate my expirences so far building the Fuselage. In a short,
its a lot more fun than the wings (or the tail.) I seems kind of hard
though, because the written directions are pretty sketchy at best. I started
at the tail bulkheads and worked forward thur the main wing spar bulkhead,
then dove into the firewall. The firewall was, well let's say - kind of
hard... It took me a full weekend to get it made and installed in the jig.
I also got a bad cut on one of the stainless steel metal shavings - so be
carefull! I think Van's must of had the flu the day he drew up the plans
for the firewall. I had to refer between sheets 22 and 27 often, as the
construction is not intuitive. Also, there are 4 steel brackets that go in the
corners on the backside of the firewall that transfer the engine load to
the longerons. As far as I could tell, you weren't suppose to put them
on yet, but it seemed like a very logical time, so I put them on anyway.
Also, much to my dismay, my SS firewall is about 1/8-1/4 short on the left
side. This has caused a few problems, nothing I'm sure compared to what's
to come.
But hey, enough negative. The neat part is seeing what actually is starting
to look like a fuselage being born in my shop! You all that are working on
your wings or tail - hurry up and get to the fuse! It's a real enthusiasm
builder!
I just order the new catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Speciality. In the older
one that I have, I was looking at the insturments. You know that they have
2.25" versions of airspeed, alt, vert, g's, tach. They cost about twice
what the equivalent 3.125" version does, but the panel space savings would
be significate. Have any of you heard about the reliability of these units
compared to the standard ones? Are there reasons (other than cost) to not go
with the smaller units? Are the Russians really our friends? How much
tea is there really in China? (Opps, sorry...)
Lets hear some comments!
Matt Dralle
RV-4
Livermore California.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
Hey, I tried all night to get thur to the FAA BBS mentioned here a few
times. I only got thru once, the first time, and that was when I tried
it just dialing it on the phone to see if it would answer. I've tried it
on two different systems now and busy, Busy, BUsy, BUSy, BUSY, BUSY! ACK!
Has anyone really gotten connected to this service on a regular basis?
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Builder/Flyer/(Dreamer)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Okay, So I Jumped the Gun... |
Right after I send the message to the RV-list about not being able
to access the FAA BSS, I got in! Hard to believe. I think that they might
only have one modem connected. Sheeze!
Anyway, its kind of a neat thing, but it needs a bunch more input. Okay guys
this is your chance! Call um up and post some stuff! The number is
1-800-426-3814.
If you are interested, I have a transcript of my session I can send you. Not
all that exciting, but its better that picken-ya-nose...
Ciao!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | FAA BBS Capture Offer Retracted... |
Opps, I lied. I can't send you a copy of my seesion even if you
*did* want one. Seems that the data I captured is of a very strange
format. I told the FAAs system that I was a VT100 terminal and from
then on the data has vt100 controls in it and well its pretty much
unreadable. Sorry about this bogus offer.
I'm also sorry for bothering you all with this drivel. I'm home alone with
nothing better to do but play with the computer and write all of the useless
messages. I could be out pounding rivits... Sheeze, next thing I know
I'll be buying a pocket pen protector... Oh God!
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Builder Most of the Time...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | FAA BBS Capture Offer Retracted... |
I don't know guys, think maybe Matt spent too much time in the
paint booth last weekend? :-) Maybe it's just all that
excitement about starting his fuse...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Hi gang, no news for awhile. I finally finished my electric elev
trim installation, and am closing that elev. So, except for the
fiberglass tips, the tail is all but done.
I ordered my wing kit and expect to get it in 2 weeks, altho the
phlogiston spar is 2 months backordered. Plenty to do without it
(flaps, ailerons, etc.). I opted for Jerry Harrold's re-inforced
wing tips, and one-piece top skins.
Matt, the trim drawings are on their way. Steve H., now that I
have the cash to order the wing kit, I also ordered some more
tools, including a hand squeezer, so I can finally return yours.
It has been a great help and I really appreciate the loan.
Let's hear how some other projects are going...
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
>
> Hi gang, no news for awhile. I finally finished my electric elev
> trim installation, and am closing that elev. So, except for the
> fiberglass tips, the tail is all but done.
>
> I ordered my wing kit and expect to get it in 2 weeks, altho the
> phlogiston spar is 2 months backordered. Plenty to do without it
> (flaps, ailerons, etc.). I opted for Jerry Harrold's re-inforced
> wing tips, and one-piece top skins.
>
> Matt, the trim drawings are on their way. Steve H., now that I
> have the cash to order the wing kit, I also ordered some more
> tools, including a hand squeezer, so I can finally return yours.
> It has been a great help and I really appreciate the loan.
>
> Let's hear how some other projects are going...
>
> don w.
>
I am in the process of finishing the wings and fitting the tips. I am
planning to attach them with platenuts so i thought i would fit them now.
I hadn't heard of the reinforced wing tips. What are they? I am using vans
flush wingtip lite kit. I have rigged it so i can access the lite from within
the wingtip after its removed from the wing (attached with platenuts anyway
since i plan to try wingtip antennae). I think one advantage of this is
that i can bond the lens to the tip for a nice smooth fit. I'll let you
know how it comes out. BTW i found the lens does NOT conform well to the
shape of the tip hence my effort to bond it in. It seems to me if the
lens/tip interface isn't pretty darn smooth you may have well have just
mounted the lite external.
I am having some trouble in the leak testing of my tanks. I am using the
ballon-on-the-fuel-uptake fitting method. It is easy to inflate the ballon
through the quick drain. I am getting balloon deflation that is too fast to
be normal balloon leakage and too slow to detect with the soapy water on the
exterior trick. (However i havent spent a lot of time on this testing yet and
hopefully my leak is around the balloon-fitting joint). Anybody had
problems/success with leak testing? Any problems around the cork gaskets?
Just starting on the firewall bulkhead now. At least on the -6 it is a
maze of angle splices and joints that takes some starting at the drawings to
decipher. Still haven't started on the fuse jig though.
Chris Moody RV6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | one-piece wing skins?? |
hey don,
who are you getting the one-piece wing skins from??
these seem like maybe the way to go for a nicer finish.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | lead counterweights |
OK, so how did all of you melt the lead for your elevator counterbalances.
And where do I get the lead??
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Counter Balances |
I got lead fishing weights, and melted them on the stove in an old throw-
away pot (you can get an extremely cheap pot from the goodwill). I also made
a much more robust design to hold them on( old newsletters had a point about
them coming loose and snagging the edge of the HS). I used a couple of 1/4"
bolts, with extra nuts at the ends of the bolts.
One piece skins!- boy I wish I'd done that. back then, I didn't ever think of
deviating from the plans one iota, but in retrospect- a nicer finish, easier
to rivet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | One Piece Skins, Lead... |
I used a single piece of .032 in place of the two pieces of .032 (inboard)
and .025 (outboard). The finish does infact look a LOT nicer. There is
some weight gain - but who cares? The best part is that you can counter
sink the whole thing. I hate dimpling. Also, its a crock of sh*t that
you have to rivit the bottom first. I rivited the top skin on in the jig
in a two man/woman team, then took it out of the jig and finished all of the
things you have to do before you can close the wing up, then rivited the
bottom skins on while the wing sat on saw horses, BY MY SELF, with OUT
a single pop rivit! And the rivits came out fine.
Look in the back of Sport Aviation for the ad with the old lady sitting
in a big roll of metal. They will sell you any thickness in 4' widths and
any lengths (1' increments). As I recall, .032 is about $7-8 a linear foot.
One thing I did learn though, isto start at the ROOT and work towards the
TIP when riviting the bottom skins on. With the left skin, I worked from
tip to root, and it was significatly harder - but still do-able.
Keep this all in mind as a way to do you wings...
Lead weights... I used an old can from some canned peas. Works well. You
can go to a fishing store and get those honkin' big lead fishing weights
and melt them down. Works fine.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Electric Flap Motor, Tail Kit... |
I got my Electric Flap kit today. Nice setup. The motor and jack-screw
assembly he's got is first rate. A real nice unit. I picked up a similar
setup from a Cessna 150 but it wasn't near as nice as this baby. Van's
unit is much simpler, lighter, and well, just cooler looking! Nice kit
of parts too. Plans for the installation look pretty good. Over all,
a nice setup - I highly recommend it.
...and this just in. The tail kit gets better with age. He's putting
even more prefab in the tail kit. The steel hinges now have the hinging
holes already punched! Also, the hole for the bearing is already punched
out. But wait, there's more. The reinforment pieces that go on the back of
the spars are already sheered to size! Just a bit of filing and presto, ready
to install. This is the kind of thing that really make a kit nice I think.
Now, if I could just pick one up already assembled for $7800.00...
Let's here from some of you other builders. There are a lot of people on
this list that could be classified as "Net Lurkers". Tell us about YOUR
project!
Keep Pounding!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Flap Motor, Tail Kit... |
Not really a lurker, but my progress has slowed somewhat. I am still on my
tail kit. the right elevator is done (except for the counterbalancing) and
the skeleton for the rudder is ready to paint (minus one of the support
pieces for the rudder horn, which cracked when I bent it - forgot to radius
the area near the bend).
Speaking of hinges...
how do you get the stupid bolt in the hinge once you are ready to bolt
the elevator to the stabilizer?? My hands are pretty small and I just can't
get the stupid bolt in the hole through that little opening in the elev.
leading edge. I`ve tried pliers, but to no avail. The stupid hinge bearing
never wants to line up or something and once it does, there is not enough
room to get anything in there to hold the bolt. I have the bearing distance
set just like the plans say.Any help??
I'm just waiting on the mounting kit from Van's for the electric trim so I
can start the left elev.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
| Subject: | elevator hinge bolts |
Me a Lurker? I used a hemostat clamped on the base of the bolt & just jiggled
until it went in. Advantage is that it clampos on ala vise-grip and is easy to
hold. Alternatives could be needle nose vise-grips, needle nose plyers with
rubber bands holding the handles together, or needle nose with a great hand.
I also used all of the 3/16 drill bits I has instead of the bolt, inserting
the shank end thru the holes. 3/16 drill rod bent at right angles might make
a nice temporary holder that could be easily removed and reinstalled.
The bolts that are used have become "temporaries" that will be replaced at
final assembly.
I wish I had progress to report, but house renovation and a second baby has
put a serious dent placen construction. RV-6 tail is complete except one
elevator tip that refuses to come out right, and new hinge on the tab to
bring it approximately in line with the eelevator trailing edge. This
has been a pain. I was real careful in aligning tab and elevator when attaching
hinge, but "z" shape of tab spar results in misalighment if any pressure is applied.
Observation at Osh kosh showed several planes tab and elevator trailing edges in
line, aned many with tabs deflected at park for some odd reason...........
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Electric Flap Motor, Tail Kit... |
Chris, I just use needle-nose pliers to fit those bolts in.
Not easy, but doable.
One recommendation on the electric trim kit: I found that
there was very little room to work with if you cut the plate
to his dimensions. Hard to fit rivets, hard to fit the
screw counter sinks, etc. I recommend leaving the plate
wider than he shows to make assembly easier. I think the
only difference will be that the control horn on the tab
will need to move over slightly. No biggie. I just
finished riveting and installing the tab last night, and of
course I had to wire it up and watch the LEDs light and the
tab move. Great stuff. By the way, when lining-up the trim
tab, be sure to clamp everything down and use a
straight-edge to insure proper trailing edge alignment. The
other real tough part is keeping twist out of the tab so
that when viewed from the rear, the elevator and tab form a
consistent line from inboard to out board.
I contacted the Desoto paint people that Paul mentioned.
They do aerospace products for McDonnel Douglas, Boeing,
etc. I ordered a 2-gal kit of 513x390 metal etching Epoxy
primer (for some reason she gave me the 6-11 kit price of
$34).
They also sell Desothane, a 3-part polyurethane paint that
is used on 80% of the airliners. A one gallon kit cost $47,
which I ordered in untinted white. The paint is their
answer to Imron, and is applied right over a base-coat of
the primer.
ON to the wing kit!
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
> I contacted the Desoto paint people that Paul mentioned.
> They do aerospace products for McDonnel Douglas, Boeing,
> etc. I ordered a 2-gal kit of 513x390 metal etching Epoxy
> primer (for some reason she gave me the 6-11 kit price of
> $34).
>
> They also sell Desothane, a 3-part polyurethane paint that
> is used on 80% of the airliners. A one gallon kit cost $47,
> which I ordered in untinted white. The paint is their
> answer to Imron, and is applied right over a base-coat of
> the primer.
Don, Can you give me the number of Desoto ? Thanks
Sorry to use the rv-list but I couldn't reach you directly
Keith A. Kelleman
kak(at)sequent.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
What color is the 513x390 metal etching Epox primer? Any other colors
available? Suitable for interior cockpit painting? This info probably
has already been posted and sailed right between my ears.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
>What color is the 513x390 metal etching Epox primer? Any other colors
>available? Suitable for interior cockpit painting? This info probably
>has already been posted and sailed right between my ears.
it is in zinc chromate green only. sorry.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
>What color is the 513x390 metal etching Epox primer? Any other colors
>available? Suitable for interior cockpit painting? This info probably
>has already been posted and sailed right between my ears.
>> it is in zinc chromate green only. sorry.
Right, light yellow-green, they have olive-drab and some others
(sorry, no gray).
I like the light color since white will be my overall base
finish. I intend to paint the cockpit area with this same base
finish, not to leave it just primered.
Something else to consider: gray primer may look nice, but it is
harder see as you apply it, and tends to hide cracks more than
the yellowish colors. Besides, none of the 'exposed' parts of
the finished plane will be "primered only", at least not for me.
So, I am opting for a yellow primer from an AEROSPACE coatings
manufacturer, NOT from an automotive paint company.
Thanks again for getting me in touch with Desoto Paul.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
no problem, Don. also, when you are going to paint your weldments ( e.g.
the engine, choose white or another light color- it will enable cracks
to be seen more easily.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> matt are you there? haven't heard squat out of the group lately?
Yup, I'm here! Lots going on lately. Yeah, the group has been pretty
quite. What's UP gang??
>
> I hope its not for the reason i havent contributed anything: i ain't
> done squat on my project.
>
Well, I've been getting along pretty well on mine actually. I've got the
fuse jig built, all of the fuse bulkheads built and installed in the jig,
all of the firewall to main spar bulkhead ribs built and fit, and some of
the seat ribs done. What I am doing is building and fitting the skeltile
structure of the fuse in the jig first, then I'm going to take everything
a part and prime, then reinstall in the jig and rivit. Hopefully this won't
be too much work, but I think in the long run I'll get a better job.
The fuselage written instructions are, well shall I say, ...shitty. There
is about 2.5 pages of words to discribe all the work necessary up to
skinning. About 10% of what is necessary in my view. I've spent a lot
of time trying to figure out just what the next step was. I would be
interested to know if other builders have had this problem too. I don't
think things were nearly as sketchy with the tail of the wings.
> I just read in an old aviation leak and space mythology about a guy
> at LVK building a prop driven plane i beleive he called the mach buster.
> Have you heard/seen it?
Yeah, I've see it. Looks pretty cool. Its a usual atraction at the
Livermore Airshow. The guy that's building it had some finanical problems
and progress slowed. I guess he contracted a bunch machining work out on the
drive train/engine and got shafted. I don't know what the current status
is.
> Any big progress to report on your project? Is
> hangar sublease workin out ok or is your project in it now?
The sub has worked out really well. I will probably share the hanger
with them after I move out there.
>
> I was starting to think some more about the wingtip antennae. Bobby claims
> his works great. Have you heard any more about them?
Nope. So Bobby's got his Bargain Basement Baby in the air, huh? Wow, have
you gotten a ride in it yet?
>
> How is the trim governor working out? I saw it in vans catalog i believe;
> looks like mattronics has hit the big time!
Great! I've sold 25 units to Van's and another 10 to MAC. Yea!
> later
> Chris Moody
>
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
I been wondering where you all are also. I finished my tail,
fiberglass tips and all.
Got my wing kit, lightening holes all drilled and almost deburred
(boring!). Ruined one cheap fly-cutter and a tip rib with it.
Hey Matt, you being the whizz-bang electronics guy in the group,
did you happen to see the article in the latest Sport Aviation
where the guy made his own strobe system "using Radio Shack
parts"? I have been pricing light systems. That A650 VS light
alone is $61 in Van's catalog. The complete SYS-1A system that I
am considering is $600. Think a "homemade" system would be worth
the effort? I was going to call the guy in the article, but they
only give his name, no phone or address. Just curious.
Nice seeing some news...
don wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
The wingtip VOR/receive homemade wingtip antennas look very interesting.
Do any of you experts out there have an opinion about poossible problems
have having both these antennas and tip strobes in close proximity to
each other?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> Subject: Re: mail check
> Status: R
>
>
> I been wondering where you all are also. I finished my tail,
> fiberglass tips and all.
> Got my wing kit, lightening holes all drilled and almost deburred
> (boring!). Ruined one cheap fly-cutter and a tip rib with it.
>
> Hey Matt, you being the whizz-bang electronics guy in the group,
> did you happen to see the article in the latest Sport Aviation
> where the guy made his own strobe system "using Radio Shack
> parts"? I have been pricing light systems. That A650 VS light
> alone is $61 in Van's catalog. The complete SYS-1A system that I
> am considering is $600. Think a "homemade" system would be worth
> the effort? I was going to call the guy in the article, but they
> only give his name, no phone or address. Just curious.
>
> Nice seeing some news...
> don wentz
>
Its odd that you mention this strob thing. I havn't see the artical in
SA that you mention, although I havn't quite finished the current issue.
Back when I was building my wings I toyed with the idea of building
a strobe system for my plane. Ultimately, I just wasn't satisfied with
the performance numbers I could get from a homebrew system. I don't
think you can really get all that much brightness out of the parts sold
at the Radio Shack.
After mulling over the whole situation in my mind, I decided the Wellen (sp)
system was a pretty nice setup, all things considered and took the plunge.
Not to take any business away from Van's, I think we should all buy as
much from him as we can, but you might give a call to Chief Aircraft
in OR and ask them about prices. It seems that I got the nifty
colored/strobe/white tip lights for about $119.00 each. The supply was about
$239 I think. So that works out to $119 + $119 + $239 = $477. That's not
really very close to $600...
Here's my recommendation: I think that the Welen system is a very high
quality setup and not that overly priced considering the aircraft market.
Installation in a snap, and the strobes are brighter that hell. Over all
a good investment.
Matt Dralle
PS Gawd, I want some kick backs for all these indorsments...!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
> The wingtip VOR/receive homemade wingtip antennas look very
> interesting. Do any of you experts out there have an opinion
> about poossible problems have having both these antennas and tip
> strobes in close proximity to each other?
I certainly don't know much about it, but I heard Mike Seger say
that he has to move his comm antennae from the bottom of his fuse
to the turtledeck. Seems the GEAR interfere so much that blackie
in his RV-4 can't communicate with him from 2 plane lengths away
when they are 'formation' flying.
I have a 14x20 blow-up of Alan Tolle's 6 in my office here.
Let's see... He has an antennae right behind the rear windows
that goes-up about 8 in. then bends and follows the fuse back
about 18 in. Comm ant? I also see a similar ant mounted
directly beneath the cockpit, and a small blade of some kind a
few inches behind it. Nav stuff?
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
Let's see... He has an antennae right behind the rear windows
that goes-up about 8 in. then bends and follows the fuse back
about 18 in. Comm ant? I also see a similar ant mounted
directly beneath the cockpit, and a small blade of some kind a
few inches behind it. Nav stuff?
don w.
vertical blades are either com or loran. nav signals are horizontally
polarized, thus the usual two wires sticking out horizontally from the tail.
the short blade antenna is most likely the transponder antenna- short because
transponder signals aein the Ghz range, whereas the com/nav stuff is 100's of meMhz.
I was hoping to put the com undrneath- is htis really a big problem? I
would think if the antenna is 1 or morewavelengths away from the gear legs
that they wouldn't interfere. hmmm
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Matt, I suppose you are right about price/performance of the
Whelen stuff (not to mention the riveting you could accomplish
with the time saved...). I see you like the 3in1 wing-tip setup
too.
I thought that would be easier than that rudder light, etc.
Are you going to put that extra strobe in the VS? I was going to
(built the stab to accept it, etc.), but with a strobe at each
wing-tip, I guess you wouldn't need it, and it sure wouldn't hurt
to not have to string that high-voltage line aaallllll the way to
the top of the VS, and to not install that light. Save some
bucks AND effort.
don w
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: strobe stuff |
>
> Matt, I suppose you are right about price/performance of the
> Whelen stuff (not to mention the riveting you could accomplish
> with the time saved...). I see you like the 3in1 wing-tip setup
> too.
>
> I thought that would be easier than that rudder light, etc.
>
> Are you going to put that extra strobe in the VS? I was going to
> (built the stab to accept it, etc.), but with a strobe at each
> wing-tip, I guess you wouldn't need it, and it sure wouldn't hurt
> to not have to string that high-voltage line aaallllll the way to
> the top of the VS, and to not install that light. Save some
> bucks AND effort.
>
> don w
>
Yeah, I plan to just put strobes on the wings. I'm gonna cut those tabs
off the rudder fiberglass cup.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
well, I weighed my creation this monday morning- with an 0-360, cowl mods,
paint, seat cushions and carpets, and 6 qts of oil, it weighs.....945#
i'm not too disappointed- I've heard of some 0-360-powered RV4's weighing
in at 980 or more.
The FAA is coming out next wednesday, so I suppose I really need to get my
oil pressure up so I ca nrun the bloody thing. Hoping to taxi it this Sunday.
I still need to finish the carb heat control, and I don't seem to have the
proper throw on the mixture control, either. got to have idle-cutoff, I
suppose :)
There's now half tanks in it, and I pissed off the fuel guy by making him
halt every two gallons, so I could calibrate a dipstick. I figured it might
come in handy. BTW, the first two gallons don't even show, because of the
dihedral. Fortunately, my tanks don't seem to leak, and it's been a couple of
days now.
Has anybody out there had problems with overheating brakes melting the
plastic lines- this is a concern- Blackmore hadthe problem, and replaced
the lower portions with regular Aeroquip hose, and hasn't had a problem.
BTW, I had him come out to look it over, and he mentioned the electric
trim as a potential problem. he told me that the trim tab is extremely hard
to override, and if you got a runaway trim motor, you'd have difficulty
flying it. Matt- what arethe possible failure modes on your controller, and
if you know them- on the motor as well?
I thought to control brake heat, Imight cut cool-looking slots in the
wheel pants to funnel air over the brakes. since it would be om the inner
side, it wouldn't be too evident...
Another point- I put 12" N numbers on. If you read the regs, it's now
required with new paint jobs, as well as on >250 kt cruise machines and
international travel. seems like we have no recourse anymore :(
And one more thing before I leave- talking with the FAA guy- I got steered
wrong about ritten records on construction- you do need them. my original
conversation with the SJ GADO implied that you don't. Well, what you
do need is to have at least dates of completion on each piece entered in
the airframe logbook.
enough now- keep building!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: almost there |
>Paul Stafford Writes:
>Well, I weighed my creation this monday morning- with an 0-360, cowl mods,
>paint, seat cushions and carpets, and 6 qts of oil, it weighs.....945#
That's great! Van's RV weighed 940#. He's a light builder too! Hey, what's
5#s between friends?
>...BTW, I had him come out to look it over, and he mentioned the electric
>trim as a potential problem. he told me that the trim tab is extremely hard
>to override, and if you got a runaway trim motor, you'd have difficulty
>flying it. Matt- what are the possible failure modes on your controller, and
>if you know them- on the motor as well?
Planes are suppose to be designed to be flyable with full trim in either
direction. You might want to ask Van's about this. As far as the Governor is
concerned, they use high quality hermetically sealed relays. Small amounts of
vibration should keep them freed up nicely. I would recommend not attaching
the Governor directly to the airframe, but rather wrap it in some soft foam
and loosly attach it to a cable bundle or something.
No conserns with the MAC servo directly.
>Another point- I put 12" N numbers on. If you read the regs, it's now
>required with new paint jobs, as well as on >250 kt cruise machines and
>international travel. seems like we have no recourse anymore :(
Humm, I don't think that is exactly right. It is my understanding that
Antiques (greater than 40 years old), experimentals, planes that go
< 250 knots, and planes not crossing ADEZs are excempt from the big
number.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Wow, 945# is great for any rv, let alone a 180. You must be
extremely anxious to see all of that work almost ready to roll.
If it's not too late, you might consider changing the brake line
at the bottom (ref. Tony Bingelis in SA). Since most :-) braking
is done on the ground at low speeds, would cooling holes be
enough?
As for the antennae, I don't think the one on the top of Alan's
detracts from the looks a bit (if that is your concern).
Good luck on your tests and especially your time with the FAA.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobe stuff |
> Yeah, I plan to just put strobes on the wings. I'm gonna cut
> those tabs off the rudder fiberglass cup.
> Matt
Oh, didn't I mention that you can trade that rudder bottom piece
straight-across for one without the light fitting? Although it
might not be worth the shipping effort for you, that's what I
did.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | aviator%sequent(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | Re: strobe stuff |
<910301133529_2(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
don,
(and matt, and other rv folks:)
matt says:
> Yeah, I plan to just put strobes on the wings. I'm gonna cut
> those tabs off the rudder fiberglass cup.
> Matt
now, correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought the cutout in the rudder bottom
was for the white rearward-visible light, not a strobe. or are you going
to put the combined forward/rearward/strobe light combos on the wingtips?
have i mis-understood?
aviator(at)sequent.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: strobe stuff |
> don,
>
> (and matt, and other rv folks:)
>
> matt says:
>
> > Yeah, I plan to just put strobes on the wings. I'm gonna cut
> > those tabs off the rudder fiberglass cup.
> > Matt
>
> now, correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought the cutout in the rudder bottom
> was for the white rearward-visible light, not a strobe. or are you going
> to put the combined forward/rearward/strobe light combos on the wingtips?
> have i mis-understood?
>
> aviator(at)sequent.com
>
Yup, that's the plan. I have those units made by Whelen. Pretty nice not
having to run wires back into the tail.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
The canopies of RV-6s (saw for myself at Oshkosh) are pretty
badly distorted, resulting from their shaping in a mold rather than free-blown
as in the RV-3 & 4. The fix seems to be a LOT of elbow grease. Anyone
thought of any alternatives? Some combo of free-blown and mold for the rear
portion, or a fixed windshield (ala fighter) and sliding canopy? Could offer
increased safety and taxing open, costing forward frame, weight and time.
Somebody must have a great idea about this.
Rick Gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw274.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | introduction to the group of new builder - Gary Bataller, Westboro,MA |
I'd like to introduce myself to the rv group. I first would like to thank
Matt for his rapid response to my mail and for sending the past mailings
(I'm on a Unix machine, so no problem with uudecode/uncompress; thanks;
I'll be reading through it tonight).
I've just started building the horizontal stab this past weekend, in the
typical New England garage that flucuates between 25-80 deg F, depending
on how much kerosene I want to burn in my torpedo heater. The previous
weekend was spent putting up the wood-jig. All in all, I spent the whole
weekend doing a precise job of building the HS-rear spar, but still managed
to get two hinge brackets slightly out of tolerance (my tolerance is very
picky). So, I called the factory for some new brackets and will attach them
when they arrive. Meanwhile, I'v started the front-spar with the first job
being the two angle-irons; what a pain in the knuckles. That's about
where I've stopped. My next question is which primer to use and where I
can purchase it from.
One last thing; I spent 2 years building and then test flying a Kitfox.
A great plane and good factory support. However, the Rotax failed on me
on a take off from a heavily wooded area, last summer, but my passenger and
myself managed to walk away without any injuries (plane was destroyed). It
happened without any previous warning and I had been 'babying' the engine for
its 50 hours of life. My point is, I wouldn't consider any other power
plant then a Lycoming (or Continental) for my RV-6A. After spending all that
time and money for the plane, avionics, instruments, ect., why save a few
thousand bucks by going to a non-a/c engine (ie. an auto conversion)?
Anyway, glad to be aboard and hope to see some of you in Maryland next month
for the RV-builders forum. Send me mail if any of you are attending.
Gary Bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
There is a sliding canopy being developed at North Plains, I think, for the
fighter version of the RV-6A being sold to a country in Africa. I am not sure
whether Van thinks it will wend its way into other 6's. Did you know that
the canopy also leaks because of the center forward hinge. It certainly
seems to need a fix.
laurens ackerman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | martin(at)iastate.edu |
In conversations a few months ago with Van, he indicated the
possibility of offering the 'beetle' cannopy to RV-6 builders. I
called him with inquiries because of my size. I'm 6'7", 225lbs, and
could use the extra headroom that the beetle canopy provides. I
haven't checked back with Van recently to confirm his plans wrt the
modified canopy. Anybody have more recent info?
Martin
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: introduction to the group of new builder - Gary Bataller, Westboro,MA |
> I've just started building the horizontal stab this past weekend, in the
> typical New England garage that flucuates between 25-80 deg F, depending
> on how much kerosene I want to burn in my torpedo heater. The previous
> weekend was spent putting up the wood-jig. All in all, I spent the whole
> weekend doing a precise job of building the HS-rear spar, but still managed
> to get two hinge brackets slightly out of tolerance (my tolerance is very
> picky). So, I called the factory for some new brackets and will attach them
> when they arrive. Meanwhile, I'v started the front-spar with the first job
> being the two angle-irons; what a pain in the knuckles. That's about
> where I've stopped. My next question is which primer to use and where I
> can purchase it from.
Look thru the file I just sent to you. There have been a number of
discussions on primer and various brand's pros and cons.
> One last thing; I spent 2 years building and then test flying a Kitfox.
> A great plane and good factory support. However, the Rotax failed on me
> on a take off from a heavily wooded area, last summer, but my passenger and
> myself managed to walk away without any injuries (plane was destroyed)...
Total bummer, dude (I'm from CA, can you tell?) I would (wood) say the answer
here is to not fly over wooded areas! Okay, maybe not. That really is too
bad though. It too bad that insurance is so high. It would be nice to
have gotten a check for a new plane.
> happened without any previous warning and I had been 'babying' the engine for
> its 50 hours of life. My point is, I wouldn't consider any other power
> plant then a Lycoming (or Continental) for my RV-6A. After spending all that
> time and money for the plane, avionics, instruments, ect., why save a few
> thousand bucks by going to a non-a/c engine (ie. an auto conversion)?
>
> Anyway, glad to be aboard and hope to see some of you in Maryland next month
> for the RV-builders forum. Send me mail if any of you are attending.
>
> Gary Bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
What is the "beetle" canopy?
laurens
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
From: lackerma(at)rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman)
Subject: Re: RV-6 canopy
>There is a sliding canopy being developed at North Plains, I think, for the
>fighter version of the RV-6A being sold to a country in Africa. I am not sure
>whether Van thinks it will wend its way into other 6's. Did you know that
>the canopy also leaks because of the center forward hinge. It certainly
>seems to need a fix.
>laurens ackerman
I have tried to forget about that leak! Seem you have to carrry a roll of
masking tape around to tape the forward canopy gap. Not very elegant or
functional.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
If you look real close at the most recent(?) RVator, you can see a -6 in
the background that has a definately different canopy shape (the metal
around it is different. I hope they do release the sliding canopy version.
I'd like to go with that option instead. I didn't really like the way that
Van had to seal his canopy with tape every time it rained at Oshkosh. If
I do have to stay with the orig canopy, I'm going to put a lot of extra
time into making it seal properly.
The beatle canopy is supposed to be a sliding canopy.
My RV is coming along well. I'm almost done with the rudder and have just
to build the elevator with the trim tab, then counterbalance the elevators.
I bought Van's electric trim install kit, but I think I'll modify it to
use the internal arm as in Matt's drawings.This should be ok since I'm
going to use one of his governors to slow down the speed.
Hopefully I'll order my wings in the next couple of weeks!!
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw274.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | misc. questions on rv building |
Well, I read through the last year's mail message (thanks Matt) last night
and I have the following questions/comments:
1. Seems to be a real negative feeling about ATS for tools. Well, as
fate has it, I recently purchased most of my tools from them. Visually,
everything appears fine. But I'll keep my eye on the countersink tool
and the rivet sets. Boy, you guys really have me paranoid.
2. On the same topic, it seems like Avery has some nice tools. I'm not
familiar with them. Could someone shed some info on them (ie. do they
have a catalog, what is their phone#). I know I've seen their name
quite a bit in the Van's manual. What are the things that I should
purchase from them?
3. The prefinished wing spar. Why can't I just build it myself? Is it
really worth the extra $$ to have it done for me? Time's not an issue;
I'm not in a rush. Can I hear from someone who has built it themselves
and someone who has purchased it?
4. Still not sure about the primer. I'll probably go ahead and use the
Stits two-part primary I used on my Kitfox for the metal objects.
5. Manual trim vs. electric trim: What are the options!? I'd like
trim on roll, pitch and yaw, but what choices are currently 'supported'
by the factory. I've seen alot of conversation about the Mac/servo/
governor stuff, but I'm missing the big picture.
6. Finally, I just subscribed to RVator, but haven't received my first
issue. Sounds like there has been alot of good discussion in past issues.
I'd like to acquire as many past issues as possible, but I understan
Van's wouldn't supply past issues. Is there anyone out there who would
send me copies of them? I'd gladly send sufficient funds to cover this
ahead of time. Please let me know.
Gotta go;
Gary Bataller
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
wq
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrdcb.hp.com> |
I built my spars from scratch, and had no problem at all. Now that they
come pre-drilled, it must be almost trivial. I built mine in 6 weeks,
which included tapering the bars, and all drilling. I have heard some bad
but uncorroborated things about phlogiston, and Steve Barnes plane had them
build his spars. They screwed up, and ended up supplying him with special
oversize bolts. So you have a good chance of building just as good a spars as
they do.
a good idea is to build a hydraulic press to do the rivets. Hart Tibbets
in Fremont, Ca did this, and I borrowed his setup, and riveted both my spars
in one day. much better than trying to drive 3/16 rivets.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Phlogiston Spars... |
>
> I built my spars from scratch, and had no problem at all. Now that they
> come pre-drilled, it must be almost trivial. I built mine in 6 weeks,
> which included tapering the bars, and all drilling. I have heard some bad
> but uncorroborated things about phlogiston, and Steve Barnes plane had them
> build his spars. They screwed up, and ended up supplying him with special
> oversize bolts. So you have a good chance of building just as good a spars as
> they do.
>
> a good idea is to build a hydraulic press to do the rivets. Hart Tibbets
> in Fremont, Ca did this, and I borrowed his setup, and riveted both my spars
> in one day. much better than trying to drive 3/16 rivets.
>
Hey! I've got the prebuilt Phlogiston spars and they are a work of art! I
was really impressed with the workmanship. The few extra dollars were worth
the peace of mind knowing that they had been built right. They are really
beauty-full!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
Who does the drilling for VAN? If it is phlogiston, then probability of
scewed-up holes is independent of having them make them.
I also had mine premade, and they are beautiful. Friend of Chris Moody's
who is building and RV-3 (and thus building his own) said it cost him $200
to have his anodized, plus hassle of transportation. Some consolation for
us lazy spar non-builders.
Does anyone know the weight difference between an O 320 and a O 360?
CG penalty with heavier engine from greater tail down force/drag?
Rick Gracely
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: misc. questions on rv building |
>
> Well, I read through the last year's mail message (thanks Matt) last night
> and I have the following questions/comments:
>
> 1. Seems to be a real negative feeling about ATS for tools. Well, as
> fate has it, I recently purchased most of my tools from them. Visually,
> everything appears fine. But I'll keep my eye on the countersink tool
> and the rivet sets. Boy, you guys really have me paranoid.
Suffice to say that I have been much happier with the tools I have received
from US Tool. One thing I can say for ATS is that their clecos seem to work
the best. While US Tool's clecos seem to be better constructed (built with
heavier gage metal) the tool action just seems to work better. I have quite
a few tools from ATS and they work fine. I would just say that overall, US
tool make *better* tools.
> 2. On the same topic, it seems like Avery has some nice tools. I'm not
> familiar with them. Could someone shed some info on them (ie. do they
> have a catalog, what is their phone#). I know I've seen their name
> quite a bit in the Van's manual. What are the things that I should
> purchase from them?
Look in the back of any homebuilt rag like Sport Aviation or Kitplanes. I
think the Avery advertises pretty regular.
> 3. The prefinished wing spar. Why can't I just build it myself? Is it
> really worth the extra $$ to have it done for me? Time's not an issue;
> I'm not in a rush. Can I hear from someone who has built it themselves
> and someone who has purchased it?
In my opinion, ***YES*** its worth it! They really are nice looking. I found
it nice to just bolt a finished spar into the wing jig and start putting
ribs in. There's plunty of work to do while building an RV - why not
take advantage of the service. Phlogistian's work is as good or *better*
than anything I could do - so why not.
> 4. Still not sure about the primer. I'll probably go ahead and use the
> Stits two-part primary I used on my Kitfox for the metal objects.
>
> 5. Manual trim vs. electric trim: What are the options!? I'd like
> trim on roll, pitch and yaw, but what choices are currently 'supported'
> by the factory. I've seen alot of conversation about the Mac/servo/
> governor stuff, but I'm missing the big picture.
Van's has a kit for the Pitch and Roll trim. The roll trim kit is really
pretty slick. Pitch is not a bad setup, but I prefer using a small horn
instead of the huge one that hangs out in the wind. If you use the small
horn, I recommend using a Governor (Van's sells them now). The Governor
will let you have a switch on each stick too - pretty cool if you ask me! :-)
> 6. Finally, I just subscribed to RVator, but haven't received my first
> issue. Sounds like there has been alot of good discussion in past issues.
> I'd like to acquire as many past issues as possible, but I understan
> Van's wouldn't supply past issues. Is there anyone out there who would
> send me copies of them? I'd gladly send sufficient funds to cover this
> ahead of time. Please let me know.
I have about 3 years worth. I might be pursuaded to make copies of them - for
the right price... Also, every once in a while, somebody offers their
collection up for sale.
> Gotta go;
> Gary Bataller
> RV-6A
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Phlogiston Spars... |
Since one of my helpers is an ex-Phlogiston employee (bad-back),
and my spar is under construction there now, I thought I'd throw
my 2 cents worth in here.
It is true that Phlogiston is not infallible, especially when
training new people, but for the most part, they have a great
reputation overall. I think Jim Harriger had to have some things
tweeked on his. I will be able to inspect mine at pick-up so
that may be an advantage.
By the way, they do taper and anodize, and I understand that a
good taper job on those things is no easy task. Worth $695? I
hope so.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | aviator%sequent(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | phlogiston spars |
we had our spars built at Phlogiston, and they are now
decorating the living room (my fiance loves it! ) when we first went
over to pick them up, they had a few unacceptable rivets in them, and
i was really bummed. i was thinking 'hell, we could've done this well!'
well, it turned out that they were training a new employee and someone
had missed an inspection. wayne stonecipher (one of the principals)
came over, looked at the spar, and almost fell all over himself appologizing.
a couple of weeks later they were perfect. i would recommended them
unless you really want to build your spars, or you have more time than
money. either way you go, it is a great airplane.
jim harriger
ron ebersole
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
>
> Finally, another question, this time about the HS assembly.
>
> I just drilled the HS 611,614 (angle braces) to the 602 (front spar).
> I aligned the braces so that it was at the same surface as the flange on
> the front spar. I drilled, clecoed and then decided to assembly the entire
> HS with C-clamps to see how it looked (and to see if I had screwed anything
> up). Everything looks good, except for where the leading edge rib (I'm at
> work right now, and don't remember the numbers) attaches to the 611/614
> angles. The rib looks like it will only be attached to the spar and NOT to
> either of the angles. In other words, the outer-flanges of the rib look like
> they need to be notched out. Looking at one of the drawing, it refers to
> trimming the rib, so I guess that's one they mean. However, that fancy,
> circular notch on each side of the 611/614 angles is interfering with the
> rib placement. It's blocking the rib from sliding under the notch. Looking
> at the photos in the manual, it looks like the end of the 611/614 need to be
> trimmed flush with the leading edge rib. I know this is hard to visualize
> without a picture, but is this something you might have encountered. Feel
> free to post this for additional feedback if you can't help. Thanks.
>
> gary bataller
Gary,
I think I know what you are talking about. I'll have to look at the plans
to be sure, buts here's are some of my thonghts on this area. When I built
my HS I had a great deal of trouble getting that middle, forward rib in the
HS to look/fit/rivit right. I ended up really screwing up the rivit job
because I refused to use those pop rivits. I was talking to a crusty 'ol
RV builder at a flyin one time after I had built my tail. He said that
he had built one of the first RV-4s, mostly from scratch as Van's wasn't
coming out with the kit parts as fast as he wanted. This was in 1979-80 when
the RV-4 was just coming out. Anyway, I ask him about that rib in the HS
and ask if he had as many problem as I had. He laughed and said "Oh hell
yes!", and went on to say that he ask Van why he put that rib there (it isn't
in the RV-3 as I recall). Van's response was "Well, it just looked like
there should be one there...".
I guess my point here is that I'm really wondering if that stupied rib
is really worth the trouble? Maybe, I don't know. I'm thinking about
leaving it out on my 2nd tail.
I'll try to remeber to look at the plans when I get home recall what I did
there.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
Gary,
I believe you are talking about the inboard HS front ribs,
and how/where they attach to the front spar. If so, here is my
interpretation of the issue.
I did mine slightly wrong, but it didn't affect any critical
dimensions so Van said leave it as is. Yes, you need to trim the
rib flange so it will rivet flush against the spar web, not to
the 1" angle braces (that was my mistake, I riveted to the
braces). Yes, the edge of the flanges interferes with those tabs
that stick-out on the ends of the bottom 1" angle brace. You
merely trim a little notch out of the rib/skin to allow
clearance. For Matt, Jim and some of the earlier builders, the
little tabs didn't extend as far out, this was a revision in mid
'90.
As for that center forward rib that Matt was discussing, mine
came-out very nice (even though I screwed-up a hole and had to
add an extra for integrity!). If I was doing it again, these
things I would do:
1 - DON'T extend the hole too far towards the leading-edge. Make
the farthest hole at least 3 inches back from the LE. Possibly,
don't even put one in the small section of flange at the front of
the rib. This will help insure a smooth curvature of the skin.
2 - When riveting, CAREFULLY clecoe the skin onto BOTH sides of
the skeletal assy, watching that all of the skin holes are
aligned with the skel holes. (you may need to un-clecoe some
holes to shift the skin and get alignment.)
3 - Once all is aligned, add clecoes to the TOP skin until it is
about 50 percent populated.
4 - remove the rivets from the bottom skin, then lift it up
(carefully) for bucking access on the top skin.
5 - Rivet the top skin leading-edge ribs (except the inboard
rib!), then clecoe the bottom back down partially and rivet the
back LE ribs, reaching-in through the inboard LE rib location.
6 - Now rivet the inboard rib (top and bottom) then open the back
again for access to the top skin.
Working this method will allow the best access while working the
top skin (most important, visually). Although some people have
riveted this area alone, I don't recommend it. It is too easy to
screw-up or slip with the gun. Get a helper. If you have your
wife or some other inexperienced helper, let them run the gun,
YOU run the bucking bar, as it is critical and more physically
demanding.
One last thing, there has been alot of discussion about
countersinking versus dimpling on the HS and VS skins. I agree
with one of the local builders here who is flying his RV-6
already and building another. He points-out that dimpling
provides a much stronger joint (%60 stronger?), and I feel that
riveting is easier to do cleanly in a dimple than a countersink.
In addition, you run a greater risk of ruining a piece if you
countersink. So, even though it takes a little more time
(actually it doesn't if you factor-in the time you will likely
need to spend shaving rivet heads where your countersinks were
too shallow), I recommend dimpling over countersinking on the
skins, where you are given a choice.
I hope this info helps.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | Re: dimpling vs countersinking |
Don--i happen to agree with you on the dimple vs countersink debate.
I did that everywhere except where the tank skin attaches to the tank rear
baffle. It looked to me from the drawing detail he wanted it specifically
countersunk. Maybe it gives a better seal since in that case its critical.
BTW what are people using to seal the access plate and fuel sender flange?
I have cork gasket in there now but a silicone material has been recommended
and seems as though it would work better. I hoped to avoid using anything
i might have to scrape away later.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw274.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
Don:
Your comments described the situation EXACTLY! Prior to getting your
response today, I had decided the best thing to do was to slightly remove
about 1/4" from the ends of the 611/614 angles so that the 604 ribs would
not interfere. You recommended notching out the ribs instead to provide
this clearance. By removing the material from the angles, did I screw
something up that I'll find out about when I try to attach the HS to the
fuselage? I figured the ribs wouldn't have that much strength left if I
notches them some I decided to 'hacksaw' a bit from the angles, which
didn't appear to be that important. Its the surface of the HS 611/614 that
will attach to the fuselage that I'm referring to.
After drilling the ribs to the spars, which I tried to make sure everything
was properly square, I put the whole thing into my jig. All dimensions
checked out and everything looked square except for the two end ribs. I
cannot seem to get them to both be vertical at the same time. How crtical
is it that they be exactly perpendicular to the rear spar? I can get all
other lines true to both vertical and horizontal planes, but those two end
ribs are slightly off. Should I 'split the difference' and try to minimize
the deviation from perpendicular to the rear spar? Seems like the easiest
thing to do, but again, does this screw up some later operation.
Finally, I slipped the two skins on. Wow, looks like a plane part!!!
And I can see myself in the reflection (guess I forgot to shave over the
weekend). I envy you guys that are well into the project.
gary bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dimpling vs countersinking |
>Don--i happen to agree with you on the dimple vs countersink debate.
>I did that everywhere except where the tank skin attaches to the tank
-rear
>baffle. It looked to me from the drawing detail he wanted it
specifically
-
>countersunk. Maybe it gives a better seal since in that case its
-critical.
I haven't reached that location yet, but you are correct, he wants
that cntr
>BTW what are people using to seal the access plate and fuel sender
-flange?
>I have cork gasket in there now but a silicone material has been
recommend
-ed
>and seems as though it would work better. I hoped to avoid using
-anything
>i might have to scrape away later.
You may want to look again. This subject was discussed at our
builder's group Thursday nite. Doug Minor (has built about 6
wing sets) said Phlogiston uses a Permatex Gasket sealer that
they get at the local autoparts store, and the cork gaskets. It
is NON-silicone, and remains soft instead of hardening like
silicone. Everybody seemed to agree that silicone would be a bad
idea. I think that is because although it is a great sealer, if
you ever have to take it off, big trouble. Whatever you use,
don't use too much and be sure it resists gas and alcohol.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
> don:
> Your comments described the situation EXACTLY! Prior to
> getting your response today, I had decided the best thing to do
> was to slightly remove about 1/4" from the ends of the 611/614
> angles so that the 604 ribs would not interfere. You recommended
> notching out the ribs instead to provide this clearance. By
> removing the material from the angles, did I screw something up
> that I'll find out about when I try to attach the HS to the
> fuselage? I figured the ribs wouldn't have that much strength
> left if I notches them some I decided to 'hacksaw' a bit from the
> angles, which didn't appear to be that important. Its the
> surface of the HS 611/614 -that will attach to the fuselage that
> I'm referring to.
Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but that will mean you will need to make
some kind of re-inforcing plate that is used while attaching the
angle to the fuse. Consider re-doing the angle...
> After drilling the ribs to the spars, which I tried to make sure
> everythin -g was properly square, I put the whole thing into my
> jig. All dimensions checked out and everything looked square
> except for the two end ribs. I cannot seem to get them to both
> be vertical at the same time. How -crtical is it that they be
> exactly perpendicular to the rear spar? I can get all other
> lines true to both vertical and horizontal planes, but those -two
> end ribs are slightly off. Should I 'split the difference' and
> try to -minimize the deviation from perpendicular to the rear
> spar? Seems like the -easiest thing to do, but again, does this
> screw up some later operation.
I think the more critical dimensions would be the center of the
spars/inboard ribs. If your tip ribs are slightly
pigeon-toed-in, that would be mostly cosmetic, and then probably
only slightly. Just remember to NOT trim the skins anywhere
near the 1/2" outside the ribs as suggested, until riveting is
complete. Then you can make the skin 90 deg to the rearspar for
the elev cntr weights, etc.
> Finally, I slipped the two skins on. Wow, looks like a plane
> part!!! And I can see myself in the reflection (guess I forgot
> to shave over the weekend). I envy you guys that are well into
> the project.
Pretty exciting stuff isn't it!? Give me a call when you are ready to
mark your drill lines on the skins. You can decide whether or
not to use the method I used.
don w.
gary bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | aviator%sequent(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | Re: Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
<910318173503_1(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
don writes:
> don:
> Your comments described the situation EXACTLY! Prior to
> getting your response today, I had decided the best thing to do
> was to slightly remove about 1/4" from the ends of the 611/614
> angles so that the 604 ribs would not interfere. You recommended
> notching out the ribs instead to provide this clearance. By
> removing the material from the angles, did I screw something up
> that I'll find out about when I try to attach the HS to the
> fuselage? I figured the ribs wouldn't have that much strength
> left if I notches them some I decided to 'hacksaw' a bit from the
> angles, which didn't appear to be that important. Its the
> surface of the HS 611/614 -that will attach to the fuselage that
> I'm referring to.
Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but that will mean you will need to make
some kind of re-inforcing plate that is used while attaching the
angle to the fuse. Consider re-doing the angle...
--------
well, that depends on how short you made the angles. check the length of
the angles versus the dimensions given on the drawing of the fuse at the
attach point. the early kits (our is one :-( ) had this dimension wrong and
ours in too short, so we will have to build some sort of adapter plate when
we get to that.
congrats on making progress, gary.
aviator@sequent
jim harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw274.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
Don:
I just spoke to Dick Smith at Van's; you were right. I should not have
cut the angle; should have notched the 604 rib as you suggested. The
1" angle mounts to the longeron later on, and the 1/4" I took anyway is
necessary for a good attachment. The smaller angle isn't critical in this
respect, so I ordered another 1" angle. I did forget to ask him another
question; what is the proper way to position the 1" angle on the front
spar? Should the surface that is perpendicular to the front-spar be flush with
the side-flange of the 604 rib? That's what I plan on doing. Maybe you
guys can save another 1" angle from destruction.
gary bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gary Bataller Asks About Some Tail... |
> I just spoke to Dick Smith at Van's; you were right. I should
> not have cut the angle; should have notched the 604 rib as you
> suggested. The 1" angle mounts to the longeron later on, and the
> 1/4" I took anyway is necessary for a good attachment. The
> smaller angle isn't critical -in this respect, so I ordered
> another 1" angle. I did forget to ask him another question;
> what is the proper way to position the 1" angle on the front
> spar? Should the surface that is perpendicular to the front-spar
> -be flush with the side-flange of the 604 rib? That's what I
> plan on doing. Maybe you guys can save another 1" angle from
> destruction.
> gary bataller
Gary, I'm not sure that you use the rib for placement, I think
you use the spar webs. Look in the plans for clues from measure
ments, etc. Also, I often get clues from the photos.
Don't worry about destroying some parts, at least you were smart
enough to ask BEFORE you riveted! Right guys? In general, you
will occasionally come across things that aren't clear. Try to
decide which part is structurally most critical (ie. 1/8" thick
angle bracket versus rib flange) and you should do alright.
Sounds like you are cruising right along. Keep it up! don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw274.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | like somefeedback |
Hello fellow Rv'ers. I'm about to release a software package, probably in
the May '91 timeframe. I want to put enough mileage on it to make sure
there are no problems. What I'd appreciate from you is some feedback on
the product. Do you think there's an interest in such a package, would you
use it, additional features that would be nice, ect. If the response is
not so good, I'll probably just use it myself. But if the interest seems
to be there, I'll put some adds in the aviation community and market it to
the builder community. Please provide some feedback. And PLEASE, do not
try to order it yet. If you think you might want to purchase a copy when
I release it, let me know. I myself will be using it throughout the
construction of my RV-6A. The next upgrade will be to include the flight
testing phase. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
This is a brief description of the product. More detailed info will be
available soon.
'BUILDSOFT' SOFTWARE PACKAGE DESCRIPTION
INTRODUCTION:
The task of constructing an Amateur-Built-Aircraft, as described in FAA
Advisary Circular 20-27C, requires both satisfactory mechanical skills and the
ability to demonstrate to the inspector that proper workmanship has been
used in the construction of the aircraft, with a secondary goal of determining
that the aircraft was indeed constructed by the builder. In order to
satisfy these requirements, proper documentation for the construction itself,
both through a builders' log and photographs, will help to achieve this goal.
Hoowever, having already been through this process (Kitfox), I found it took a
bit a effort to perform the necessary documentation after an exhausting work
session. My notes usually took place on small scraps of paper that finally
made their way into a notebook. In addition, all of my many parts invoices
were haphazardly filed away into various nook and crannies. Photographs
were taken and also dispersed along with the family photos. As the project
continued, I needed to better keep track of my expenses and to really see
where my funds were going to. Finally, when the big day came and the
final inspection was scheduled I became aware of the need to organize all
of these notes, journals, invoices and photographs. Panic sunk in and I
spent many nights trying to put it all together. As it turned out, the
inspection went well and the paperwork was sufficient, but I was not very
proud of the job I had done on it. In addition, as other builders began
to approach me with questions on details that I had been very intimate with
months before, my memory sometimes was not very accurrate and I had to
rethink through each step. It sure would have been great to have each
work session well documented, both textually and with photographs.
As I am starting my next project (a RV-6A), I see the same bad habits
resurfacing and now I am seeking out specific details from other builders.
My builder notes are starting to be haphazardly written and filed away,
invoices are somewhere, and the problems I am encountering will not be
documented. I'm not exactly sure how much I've spent and where I spent it,
and when the photographs come back from developing, I'm not sure where to
file them. At this point, it occured to me that at the end of the day, I
just don't like writing things down. However, I think nothing of booting
up my PC and do some programming or flight simulator programs (VFR and IFR).
It sure would be nice to have a piece of software that would prompt me for
all of the events that occurred in the aircraft workshop that day. Wouldn't
take more than 15 minutes or so, and would force me be more organized. As
I thought more and more about it, more things became apparent. I could
organize this program to do all of my daily reports, keep the details of
construction problems and good idea to pass on, track my expenses, allow
me to refer to specific photos when that got back from processing, ect.
I would closely follow FAA Advisory Circular 20-27C (Certification and
Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft) and be sure that I would end up with
a product I would be proud of and could share with other builders. And
if I built another plane of the same family, I could quickly refer to
my past experiences.
The resultant software package is called 'BuildSoft'. It is programmed in
C++ and will run on DOS-based PC's. It is totally menu-driven and offers
help to the user each step of the program. I've designed it in a very
modular fashion to readily be upgraded for additional user requests.
I intend to upgrade and support this product and want to make sure users
are happy with it. It's not a flashy package with Times-Square graphics
and Mozart playing in the background. It an organization package,
designed for the experimental aircraft builder and presumes no special
computer knowledge. It will produce a series of different reports, as
summarized on the attachment. By entering a description of each work session,
a report can be generated and then printed and put into a binder, ready for
your signature, containing the hours for that session and a cumulative
summary of hours to date. Finally, the program will handle the construction
of several planes concurrently
AUTHOR'S BACKGROUND:
I'm a private-pilot, ASEL/ASES, having previously owned a Piper 140, flown
about a dozen different types of planes and built/tested a Kitfox. I'm
presently starting contruction of a RV-6A. I have been a realtime software
engineer for 14 years and work on Air Traffic Control and radar related
projects, most recently the Terminal Doppler Weather Radar program and the
Microwave Landing System, both for the FAA. I fly, live and work in the New
England area.
ORDER INFORMATION:
The 'BuildSoft' software utility is provided on a 5 1/4" floppy. It comes
complete with all utilities and a sample journal already filled in. I will
be upgrading the package in response to user requests and will issue
upgrades as appropriate. The price of the package is $50.00 in U.S. funds
made out to:
Gary Bataller
15 Arch St.
Westboro, MA 01581
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Gang, I have now had a chance to try my new primer from Desoto
Aerospace. It's great! I purposely did less preparation on my
parts than I had been doing for the DP-50, and the new stuff
still sticks better. I really like it, and, it's cheaper than
anything else I've seen.
The color is a kind of bright yellow (reminds me of lemon yogurt
yellow). This color is very visible when you apply it, unlike
the gray I was using, so you can tell how your coverage is. It
will also show cracks very well during subsequent inspections.
The salesperson I contacted was Sue Foye. She will remember if
you mention my name if you call. Since there is not a
distributor in the Northwest, she gave me the quantity price,
rather than the singles price.
Paul was using the maximum solvent resistant variant, kit
#K515x700. This stuff will resist anything, even the military
hydraulic fluids in F15s, etc. It is the same price as what I
am using, which is slightly less resistent, in case I need to
remove some sometime (I don't plan to use military hydraulic
fluids anyway).
To order, call Sue Foye at 1-800-765-9550
Desoto Aerospace Coatings
1608 Fourth Street
Berkeley, CA 94710
The 2-gallon kit (one gallon of Epoxy primer and one of catalyst)
is part #K513x390 $34 (6-11 kit price) which she gave me
$48 (1-5 kit price, normally)
I also recommend getting a gallon of their Epoxy thinner for
thinning, pre-cleaning parts, and cleanup.
part #020x411 $27
Shipping will be additional.
If any of you local guys would like to try a sample of this
stuff, let me know and I will give you some.
Project update: Ribs ready to drill to spars, flaps finished
riveting last nite, spar still at Phlogiston, on to the
ailerons...
Later on, don.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GRACELY(at)YODA.NIDR.NIH.GOV |
Don, what is the potlife of the Desoto primer, any delay from mix to use,
and any problems cleaning gun?
________________________________________________________________________________
> Don, what is the potlife of the Desoto primer, any delay from mix
> to use, and any problems cleaning gun?
Rick, the potlife is 8 hours, setup time is .5 hour.
donw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
I have a small problem. When installing the rod bearings for the hinges
in the elevators and rudder, I haven't been able to find a distance
between the spar and the centerline of the hinge bearing hole other
than the 13/16" measurement in drawing #8 for one of the hinge bearings.
The problem is that the bottom hinge bearing can't be screwed down that
much and it would just seem logical that the distance would nee to be
more than that of the top hinge bearing (this refers to the rudder hinge
bearings). Am I missing something somewhere??
RV-6A Status: I'm finishing up the rudder and starting on the other elevator
(the one with the trim tab). I will be using a combination of Van's and
Matt's ideas for mounting the electric servo trim. I have the trim install
kit, but I'm going to modify it for an internal throw horn.
After all this is done, all I'll have to do is wait for my wing parts to
get here.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
Chris, I also had a problem with that. I ended-up just using the
13/16 at the top, then adjusting the bottom for a consistent
line-up between the rudder spar and the trailing-edge of the VS.
Enjoy that elevator, wasn't that tough, just had to look at it a
hundred times...
I picked-up my spars at Phlogiston today. Man are they
beautiful! After looking at them all together, I am glad I had
them do the job. Definitely worth the price, for me anyway.
Ailerons almost done.
don wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
Well, I plopped down my deposit on my wing kit today. yippppeeeeeee!!!!
only problem is that a call to Van's revealed that I'll have to wait
til SEPTEMBER to get the kit!!!! (that's with the pre-built spar)
Oh well, it'll give me time to re(and rere)read my instruction book
and restudy the plans.
After seeing the latest RVator, I'm definately going for the new sliding
canopy. Probably the one with the stretched windscreen.
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: wings ordered |
>
>
> Well, I plopped down my deposit on my wing kit today. yippppeeeeeee!!!!
> only problem is that a call to Van's revealed that I'll have to wait
> til SEPTEMBER to get the kit!!!! (that's with the pre-built spar)
>
> Oh well, it'll give me time to re(and rere)read my instruction book
> and restudy the plans.
>
> After seeing the latest RVator, I'm definately going for the new sliding
> canopy. Probably the one with the stretched windscreen.
>
> chris krieg
>
Geezs... That's about how long it took me to get my wing kit 3 years ago.
I suppose that you didn't get the 1990 prices either, huh?!
Well, I got all of the skeletal structure parts primed this weekend. Whew,
there are a lot of parts. Next weekend I start putting everything back in
the jig. Hopefully it will be much easier this time!
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | RE: wings ordered |
> Well, I plopped down my deposit on my wing kit today.
> yippppeeeeeee!!!! only problem is that a call to Van's revealed
> that I'll have to wait til SEPTEMBER to get the kit!!!! (that's
> with the pre-built spar)
>
> chris krieg
Chris, I believe you MIGHT be able to request shipment of the kit
MINUS the spar. This is what I did and I was able to get flaps
and ailerons done, and all of the pre-prep on the ribs (like
hundreds of lightening holes - yecch!) so the ribs are ready to
drill to the spar.
Then when you get the spar, you haven't lost much time. Worth a
shot, anyway.
Congrats on your progress! don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | RE: wings ordered |
actually, Van's said that that was the delay for the wing kits themselves.
Due to the rush of pre-price increase, they got a lot of orders all at once.
oh well, It'll give me time to play with my new baby (not a new toy, but
actually a real live baby - due end of June)
And no, it won't affect my RV building, my wife already budgeted the money
out for my RV. What a wonderful person.
chris krieg
Gee -- I wonder how old they get before they can hold a bucking bar.....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
nosc!apple.com!rick(at)nosc.mil, nosc!erebus.att.com!slr(at)nosc.mil,
nosc!jacobs.cs.orst.edu!mpucket(at)nosc.mil,
nosc!scripps.edu!phil(at)nosc.mil
So what's the status with 1VD?
--shellEy
I should ask Margaret, she's closer at the moment!
This last week we had three flat tires - and its not even sitting
on its wheels yet!
While building the landing gear this week, we've pinched all three
inner tubes whilst installing the tires.
Fusilage complete
Tail complete
Firewall forward complete (ready for engine)
control surfaces complete
nose gear complete
left main complete
right main in progress.
right wing 70% complete
left wing 30% complete
engine ready for installation
Biggies left to do:
wing installation
brake system redesign
(no kit built Venture has not had brake and steering problems
at first. While the factory insists that the nylon brake/
steering lines are fine, the nose wheel brake line has melted
on three planes. Loosing a brake line this way means losing
braking and steering. The fix: metal lines, rerouting the
line further from the engine and adding check valves so that
steering can be maintained in the event of catastrophic failure.)
steering system installation
electrical system completion
(The 'flight deck' heating system has to be reconsidered
since simple logic says that if you install the 2 factory
supplied electric heaters and plan to run them at high
power, they draw 35 amps each. With a 60 amp alternator
that doesn't leave much capacity for things like avionics,
lights and landing gear. None of the currently flying planes
have heaters installed at all I`m told. One builder has
modified a Cessna style oil cooler shroud and piping hot
air into the cabin that way..
instrument panel completion and installation
Panel and radios will be under test in the panel on the avionics
bench this week)
canopy installation
and at some point, interior and paint.
The goal is to be flying by june 1.
While we might get it done in June. (One person full time on the
wings, another full time on systems. The old man preparing the
engine, the boss working about 1/2 time and an avionics man doing
the radios/electrical work), I can finally see the end of the road.
My best guess: The night before OSH.
Going to OSH this year?
Bret
N3VD (HXC/R)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
Hi folks,
Since I'm not building an RV, I've been a lurker here. Have
enjoyed following the progress of you folks working
on RV's quite a bit.
For those who have asked, I'm building a Questair Venture.
Actually I'm only helping the folks that are doing the
real work. I've hired Dave Lewis Aviation in Hillsboro
to build the plane. I spend as much time as I can at his
hangar bucking rivets and sweating out the panel. Dave Lewis
(Jr. and Sr.) have built a dozen RV's including the only flying
retractable RV-4.
18 months so far into the project and I'm glad I have help. When
I started there was only a single flying Venture (although
44 others under construction). The manual left (and still leaves)
alot to be desired. It hasn't had the chance to be proven under
fire and although its very pretty, its often wrong. The prints
however, have been the saving grace. We've recieved updated prints
regularly as they make adjustments. (three cheers for CAD/CAM!) They
also send regular mailings of a factory newsletter ("The Flypaper")
which covers the items that builders have found.
Factory support has been superb. Questair has an 800 number for
builder assistance and we've spent hours on it. To date I
estimate we have 3000 hours in the plane and still a ways to go.
(Wish I could log it!)
News of the day. The plane is on its wheels and the engine has
been installed! (yay!).
Don Wentz asked about the cabin heater, from the box it looks like
a Jeep after market electric heater. Comes in 12 or 24 volt
versions and a couple of different wattages in those voltages.
Internally there are 4 quartz tubes and a fan, the unit is a small
self contained unit and has a high and low power switch. Dave
Lewis mentioned that his RV-4 is very cold at altitude so one of
these may work just fine in an RV. Personally I'd rather duct
the heat to the canopy. I'm a bit paranoid about not being able
to see with the canopy frosted over.
I am following the advise of the ex-lockheed sheet metal man
building the wings. He thought the small flush rivets that
Questair supplies were too small (the heads that is) so we
are using larger ones. Shear strength is the same but the heads
are larger. I don't know sheet metal (thats why they are building
the plane) but I can certainly see the difference in rivet.
A bit of a setback on the panel today.. The panel is drilled and
for the most part the radio racks are mounted and wired, but only
now did we notice that the supplied fuel flow, fuel quantity and
manifold pressure guages are 1 3/4 inch instead of the 2 inch we
ASSumed. It goes against my nature to shim them, its either find/trade
the ones we have for larger ones or start again on the panel..
On the fuel system I've elected to wet the whole wing. Normally
only the area in front of the spar has fuel, I'm sealing the
back as well. Should take the total fuel to 85 gallons from the normal
53. (Why? I like the idea of a non stop San Diego (where I live)
to Bellingham WA flight (where I work) with a substantial IFR reserve.)
The problem is, how to guage the back tank. A normal float valve
would read full until the tank was 2/3rds empty because of the
shape of the wing, then drop off quickly. I could use the fancy
horizontal capacitance type sensors, but they are expensive. The
only other Venture (that I know of) that is also getting carried
away with fuel is using a visible sight gage (coffee urn style)
inside the cabin. I don't like the idea of bringing fuel into
the cabin with me. What I'm considering is a LOW FUEL light. Two
of them actually. When the rear tanks reach 2-3 gallons, a float
switch will activate the light. When both lights are on then
I use the main tanks which will be guaged. I can afford to
get a Hoskins fuel totalizer which couples to the loran and still
save a bunch of money.. Alternative suggestions appreciated..
Its been an amazing experience watching it all come together so far
I'm still surprised that what starts as seemingly thick aluminum foil
when riveted in place can support amazing weight and stress. I'm
a bit envious of you who elect to do the whole thing yourself, but
I know my limits and I just don't have the patience or the metal
skills to do it myself. Mostly the patience!
Come by the shop during Margaret's NORWeFI at Hillsboro airport
and I'll show off my metal egg. You can probably button hole
one of the Lewis's if you have RV questions.
Bret Marquis
bam(at)trout.nosc.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Anybody out there? |
Hey gang, you got spring fever and stopped working on your
projects? Let's hear what's happening out there...
I went to Lewis Aviation to look at the Venture. What an odd
looking bird (I don't mean that in a derogatory sense). It just
takes you back a step when you see how quickly it tapers from the
cockpit back to the tail. Mighty impressive engine, all those
cylinders and that big black McCauley prop. I guess it is quite
a bear to get all of that heat-treated, formed aluminum to fit.
I think the owner was there when I was but I didn't want to
untangle him from the landing gear just to say hi. He is going
to have one hot mochine when that baby is done. If any of you
local guys get a chance, you gotta go look at it. Even the nose
bowl is formed aluminum, no fiberglass. Impressive.
Lest any of us RV builders feel bad, take heart, that thing is
much more of an undertaking to put together (it even has wet
wings).
How about you, Paul? Last we heard you were getting close. Is
that 4 moving about under it's own power?
Matt, Chris, Jim, where you at?
I finished my ailerons this week, including the electric trim.
Van's little kit made this trim a snap, much easier than the elev
trim. I am going to use the aileron trim kit as a base for the
rudder trim. (a discussion with an un-named source at Van's
showed that an almost identical setup could be used on the
rudder.) Starting to attach things to the spar now.
Later on, don.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> |
well the test flying on N84Ps is progressing fine- only a few minor problems
to report, while lots of fun data has been collected.
The first 2 flights were really familiarisation flights, and only on the next
3 have I taken real data.
The first tests I did related to the instruments and their accruacy.
This involved flying wing with people and reading our altimeters & airspeed
together. The first flight I tried this, I had a difficult time joining
up, but then on the next flight all went well. My a/s indicator is at least
as accurate as the factory ones. The alternative- timed runs over a measured
course -seemed too much trouble and some safety issues- flying low enough to
get an accurate time hack over the marks seemed unwise at this early stage.
The next flight I did "sawtooth" climbs to determine Vy, Vx, and calibrate
the VSI. This was fun! the procedure is to trim it to the a/s to be tested,
say 80kt, at 1500ft, and then add full power. as the plane climbed thru
2000 ft, I started the stopwatch, and recorded times thru 3, 4, and 5000 ft.
It's difficult to hold the a/s closer than +-2 kt, but I did as well as I
could. I tested 80, 90, 110, and 120 kt. amazingly, I found an astounding
difference in the climb rate between 100 and 90 kt.
80 kt 28 sec
90 kt 31 sec
100 kt 42 sec
110 kt 45 sec. to climb from 2-3000 ft.
also obviously, I should have checked climb at 70 kt. next flight...
course, the deck angle would be too unreal. even at 80kt, all I could see
was blue...
next was the power vs a/s test.
I set increments of 1" on the mp, and recorded rpm and a/s
not having cs prop, the rpm was whatever it could be...
this was at 3000 ft, 50f
mp rpm a/s KIAS hp ( from engine manual)
20 2050 120 90 (50%)
21 2150 125 103(57%)
22 2250 130 115(64%)
23 2350 135 128(71%)
24 2400 145 140(78%)
25 2500 155 150(83%)
also- I am not sure whether my tach is accurate. any ideas?
unfortunately, at 155kt, I experienced serious rudder snatch, and quit,
more than a little scared. the fix is easy- the rudder trailing edge
is too fat, and must be squeezed down. I don't think I've ever diagnosed
a problem and made the adjustment as fast as I powered down after that
incident :)
tonight, I'll befixing that, and then try for the top speed at power.
other improvements- I need some serious sound proofing...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody out there? |
nope, I haven't stopped working. I finished my rudder minus the lower
glass tip (I'm sending it back to Van's to get the light-less version).
I'm putting the stiffeners in the left elevator tonight hopefully. I have
the electric trim system for the elevator fitted, but nor riveted in yet.
I did use the short control horn and internal throw arm like Matt's
set-up (I'll use one of his nifty governors to control the speed).
I'm still waiting on my wings, so I'll probably work at a leisurely pace
for now.
One of these day I'm going to get in contact with Van's about moving the
rear cabin wall of my -6a back to accomodate a child seat. He'll probably
balk at the idea, but it wouldn't be much of a move back. From what I saw
at OSH last year, one would almost fit now.
oh well, enough for now....
chris
PS -- Paul, why don't you post your flight test info to the rv-list as
well as to rec.aviation. some of the group members can't read
rec.aviation.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
paul--i was interested to read your flight data. I would be interested
to know a few other things:
-metal/vs wood prop/suorce
-pitch
-engine model/source
-max static rpm
rudder problems do sound scary =8( How bad was the bulge at the TE of
the rudder? Will you have to remove rudder to fix? What exactly were the
symptoms?
It seems i can only dream of flight testing at this point. Still finishing
firewall and building fuse jig. Comming up on big decision/purchase point
for engine, prop and finishing kit--i'm so confused (320/360, wood/metal
CS/Fixed, canopy option etc).
Keep writing about those flights to keep the rest of us inspired and
informed!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
well, sounds like I could be of more help in my decriptions
the trailing edge was kinda bulgy- don't know how to describe the dimension,
except to say it was maybe twice the radius of the ailerons.
the snatch was a 2 sec period oscillation, approximately +-20 degrees to each
side. I have squeezed the rudder down, but I haven't re-flown it to say if
that fixed it or not. sure don't want to take it off or rebuild it. kinda tired
of building ;)
I got my prop from Ed Sterba. He charges $300, and will re-pitch it once for
free. you can only lower the pitch, so we guessed a little over. it may
still be the right prop for me- I'm getting 2300 turns static. it was 70x80 (!)
prop. from the CAFE tests, it seems his measurements of pitch may be somewhat
different from others. at any rate, it allows some stellar performance.
beware of some of the other manufacturers- they charge a lot, and have looooong
lead times. Ed got it back in 6 weeks!
I got my engine from trade-a plane. it was off a Geronimo conversion, which had
been taxiied into on the ground. engines untouched, but an insurance write-off.
945hrs SMOH, 2300TT, $6000. it came with a prop governor and vacuum pump
which I stored away, having a fixed prop and no gyros. anyone know who needs'em?
oh- it is an 0360-A1D, 180 hp @ 2700 turns, 91/96 octane, 8.7 compression.
I had the mags and carb rebuilt.
and the best- it only weighs 16# more than an 0320. if you forgot my original
post, my empty weight, with 180hp and paint was 945#.
give some thought to what kind of mags you want- there are a few choices, and
it will affect the accessories you need. I have shower-of-sparks mags, which
are terrific- 2 blades to start! alas, you can't hand-prop the engine .
I don't know about 0-320's, but the carbs on 0360's have about 16 different
kinds of mixture levers. I had a hell of a time figuring out a proper routing
for the mixture control so I could get full throw on it. be sure to check for
full throw on both controls...
also- the O-360 hangs MUCH lower than the 0-320, which means a large bump
on the bottom, unless you get the I0-360. lots of glass work in any case. sigh.
you'll also find trouble getting the bolts that hold the prop extension to the
engine flange. they are very very special bolts, so much so that no one can
obtain them! I ended up using grade 8 bolts, and drilled the heads for safety
wire myself. a very hard job on very hard steel.
I'm sure you all read about the guy who lost his spinner, ostensibly from
having to take it off each time he re-torqued his prop. be sure to have some
method of capturing the head of the prop bolts on the front side so you don't
have to remove the spinner. I made my own crush plate out of 3/8 6061, and
milled 3 slots for the 6 bolt heads. looks cool.
yesterday, I began the spiffing up of 84PS. I lined the baggage compartment
with trunk liner. 8 oz, glued down, looks great. I've promised myself not to add
more than 10 # of stuff to make it livable and quieter. much quieter. 4 straight
pipes makes for a loud plane. any ideas for muffling?
well guys- keep working- itsa worth it! in a month or so, I'll have my
time flown off, and will be happy to give inspirational rides for gas costs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | more misc questions |
Paul, some questions on your last reply:
>
> I got my prop from Ed Sterba. He charges $300, and will re-pitch it once for
>free. you can only lower the pitch, so we guessed a little over. it may
>still be the right prop for me- I'm getting 2300 turns static. it was 70x80 (!)
>prop. from the CAFE tests, it seems his measurements of pitch may be somewhat
>different from others. at any rate, it allows some stellar performance.
>beware of some of the other manufacturers- they charge a lot, and have looooong
>lead times. Ed got it back in 6 weeks!
Any sort of leading edge protection on the prop? How much of a factor is
a rain encounter? I would think at the pitch you have it would be easy to
throttle back to an rpm where erosion would no be a big problem.
>
> I got my engine from trade-a plane. it was off a Geronimo conversion, which
had
>been taxiied into on the ground. engines untouched, but an insurance write-off.
>945hrs SMOH, 2300TT, $6000. it came with a prop governor and vacuum pump
>which I stored away, having a fixed prop and no gyros. anyone know who needs'em?
>oh- it is an 0360-A1D, 180 hp @ 2700 turns, 91/96 octane, 8.7 compression.
>I had the mags and carb rebuilt.
>and the best- it only weighs 16# more than an 0320. if you forgot my original
>post, my empty weight, with 180hp and paint was 945#.
OUTSTANDING!
>
> give some thought to what kind of mags you want- there are a few choices, and
>it will affect the accessories you need. I have shower-of-sparks mags, which
>are terrific- 2 blades to start! alas, you can't hand-prop the engine .
>
> I don't know about 0-320's, but the carbs on 0360's have about 16 different
>kinds of mixture levers. I had a hell of a time figuring out a proper routing
>for the mixture control so I could get full throw on it. be sure to check for
>full throw on both controls...
At this point i am problably going with one of Vans engines. The question
is which one. I am also leaning strongly toward a fixed prop but want to
keep the door open to C/s. All other things equal how much penaly in
specific fuel consumption do you take with the 360? Do you have any
numbers on yours yet paul? Does it make any sense or is it even possible
to use the constant speed cowling witha fixed prop to make upgrade later
easier? I take it van does not offer any of the prop mounting hardawre
for the 360? Is it that the 320 hw is not rated for the power? How much
of a pain is the prop bolt tightening procedure since you have the bolt
heads captive? How long does procedure take? Need a precision torqe
wrench or is a calibrated wrist good enough? Bolts are safetyed i assume
>
> also- the O-360 hangs MUCH lower than the 0-320, which means a large bump
>on the bottom, unless you get the I0-360. lots of glass work in any case. sigh.
I take it the same is true of the A1A that van offers. Wonder if its a
problem in the -6?
>you'll also find trouble getting the bolts that hold the prop extension to the
>engine flange. they are very very special bolts, so much so that no one can
>obtain them! I ended up using grade 8 bolts, and drilled the heads for safety
>wire myself. a very hard job on very hard steel.
>
> I'm sure you all read about the guy who lost his spinner, ostensibly from
>having to take it off each time he re-torqued his prop. be sure to have some
>method of capturing the head of the prop bolts on the front side so you don't
>have to remove the spinner. I made my own crush plate out of 3/8 6061, and
>milled 3 slots for the 6 bolt heads. looks cool.
>
> yesterday, I began the spiffing up of 84PS. I lined the baggage compartment
>with trunk liner. 8 oz, glued down, looks great. I've promised myself not to
add
>more than 10 # of stuff to make it livable and quieter. much quieter. 4 straight
>pipes makes for a loud plane. any ideas for muffling?
you're not using the famous allan tolle crosser exhaust? I'm curious
why you aren't. I've heard good things out it.
>
> well guys- keep working- itsa worth it! in a month or so, I'll have my
>time flown off, and will be happy to give inspirational rides for gas costs.
>
sorry for all the questions but thats where i am. there does seem to be
woefully little documneted info for some of these major ($$$) decisions
we come up on!
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
>Any sort of leading edge protection on the prop? How much of a factor is
>a rain encounter? I would think at the pitch you have it would be easy to
>throttle back to an rpm where erosion would no be a big problem.
yes- a urethane edge.
>At this point i am problably going with one of Vans engines. The question
>is which one. I am also leaning strongly toward a fixed prop but want to
>keep the door open to C/s. All other things equal how much penaly in
>specific fuel consumption do you take with the 360? Do you have any
>numbers on yours yet paul? Does it make any sense or is it even possible
>to use the constant speed cowling witha fixed prop to make upgrade later
>easier? I take it van does not offer any of the prop mounting hardawre
>for the 360? Is it that the 320 hw is not rated for the power? How much
>of a pain is the prop bolt tightening procedure since you have the bolt
>heads captive? How long does procedure take? Need a precision torqe
>wrench or is a calibrated wrist good enough? Bolts are safetyed i assume
fuel specifics are actually better in the 0360- that is, #/fuel/hp. so throttle
back to whatever, it's just on tap when you need it. typically, the 0360 gets
.45 #/hp/hr, and the 0320 gets about .5#/hp/hr. I wouldn't think it's possible
to use the CS cowl with a fixed pitch. ask van, though... no- he doesnt' offer
the h/w to bolt the extension on the engine. in fact, he might not be carrying
the 180hp extension anymore. he mentioned mine was one of 3 left. prop bolt
procedure is trivial, and takes about 5 minutes. the prop bolts are safetied
with cotter pins- the extension bolts are with wire. always use a torque
wrench- you only tighten a wooden prop to 15-20 ft/#.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
Paul, WOW, our congratulations on actually flying in your
project! More encouragement for us all...
donw
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
Paul, can you describe "rudder snatch"? I have heard of
'snatching' on control surfaces, but am not quite sure what the
symptoms or results are. Also, when you say "too fat", how fat
do you mean? Did you somehow finish that bend without squeezing
the radius? I guess I am concerned lest the rest of us
experience the same fright that you had...
BTW, are you wearing a parachute? I am wondering how many of us
homebuilders actually do/will when test flying our projects.
Maybe a rental would suffice until the test flying is done.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
> . Paul, can you describe "rudder snatch"? I have heard of
> 'snatching' on control surfaces, but am not quite sure what the
> symptoms or results are. Also, when you say "too fat", how fat
> do you mean? Did you somehow finish that bend without squeezing
> the radius? I guess I am concerned lest the rest of us
> experience the same fright that you had...
>
> BTW, are you wearing a parachute? I am wondering how many of us
> homebuilders actually do/will when test flying our projects.
> Maybe a rental would suffice until the test flying is done.
the rudder was wiggling the nose of the airplane side to side, with a
freq of maybe 1 second, and an amplitude of maybe +-20 degrees - no matter
what I did, until Islowed down.
fat= the radius was too large- guess I didn't squeeze it down enough. thought I
did...
no chute yet- when I do the flutter and acro I will be borrowing one.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | Shock Mounted Gyroes |
____________|___________
\ \_o_/ /
___\____{_+_}___/___
o/ ` \o
Hey Y'all:
I think I'm the latest new member to the rv-list. Let me give you
a little data on my project: I'm building an RV-6, the taildragger of course!
Should be riveting the H.S. skin on today, I'v alreaddy started the V.S.
skeleton. I'm using the 4x4 jig for construction. And I've op'd to under-
coat all parts wiht Vari-Prime.
I origanally tried the Sherwin Williams primer wash but that stuff just
does not stick good enough... The Vari-Prime seems to work well, But I think
I really want to try the Yellow Primer from Desoto Areospace. How many
people are using it? and Is it BETTER then Vari-Prime???
Looking thru the ARC logs of rv-list I noticed someone mentioned they
were not sure how to protect Gyroes from the inpacked of landing etc.. If
anyone has seen Allen Toles RV-6 there is your answer. On the Control Panal
he made a plate big enough to contain 4 Gages then mounted the plate to the
panel.. You can by shock mounts from Aircraft Spruce for about $15 doz. If
you want to see pictures of his craft check out Kitplane Feb 1990...
A question... I know I wont be in need of these any time soon But, I
wish to locate a source were I can get Fuel Oil temp & Presure Guages like
Cessna's and some small pipers do. The Group of guages with dimensions
1" x 6" .....
Well they look somthing like this...
__________________________________________________________________
|
|
|
|Left Fuel
------------------------------------------------------------------
Any Help? I would be very thankfull!
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
> Looking thru the ARC logs of rv-list I noticed someone mentioned they
>were not sure how to protect Gyroes from the inpacked of landing etc.. If
>anyone has seen Allen Toles RV-6 there is your answer. On the Control Panal
>he made a plate big enough to contain 4 Gages then mounted the plate to the
>panel.. You can by shock mounts from Aircraft Spruce for about $15 doz. If
>you want to see pictures of his craft check out Kitplane Feb 1990...
beware- just because it looks like it would help, doesn't mean it will.
properly designed shock mounting needs to take into account the mass of the
suspended object, the reponse of the mounts, and the exciting frequency.
without considering these points, you could jsut make the problem worse. it
could be that your system would oscilate badly, making it worse than nothing
at all.
ask Matt for the old postings on primers. the Desoto is far superior, and
cheaper to boot.
as for guages- check out the wrecking yards. Ken Faith in scaramento, ok parts
in gilroy, surprise valley aviation- all would have these guages for
good prices.
here's some phone numbers for everyone
wrecking yards
Ken Faith 916 383-5403
SVA 916 279-2111
omac 509 826-4770
nat'l 213 426-8309
and for regular hardware
Norcal 415 569-7371
Avial 415 638-8736
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mag%mag386(at)cse.ogi.edu |
| Subject: | Allan Tolle Crosser Exhaust |
ogicse!bartman.mitre.org!moody (Chris Moody) writes:
> you're not using the famous allan tolle crosser exhaust? I'm curious
> why you aren't. I've heard good things out it.
Unfortunately, I haven't. There have been numerous reports of cracking
of this system. I believe I've even seen a report on the FAA homebuilts
BBS of this problem & I have talked to a builder here in the NW who is currently
fighting the cracking. Tolle's answer has apparently been: "more bracing..."
(loose quote).
Michael
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
>ogicse!bartman.mitre.org!moody (Chris Moody) writes:
>
>> you're not using the famous allan tolle crosser exhaust? I'm curious
>> why you aren't. I've heard good things out it.
>
>Unfortunately, I haven't. There have been numerous reports of cracking
>of this system. I believe I've even seen a report on the FAA homebuilts
>BBS of this problem & I have talked to a builder here in the NW who is currently
>
>fighting the cracking. Tolle's answer has apparently been: "more bracing..."
>(loose quote).
>
>Michael
that's why I didn't use it. good old cheap mild steel, the whole system was
free- the local muffler shop, when they heard I was building a plane:
there's the pile, go take what you want. someone else around here had the
proper flanges . took a couple of iterations to get it to fit- if you
go this route, lets talk some more- I have a few ideas on the subject.
makes it easy to do the carb heat, too. I just welded on a box- no more
craqcked aluminum boxes loosely fit over the exhaust...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | No Subject Given |
Great info Paul. I am shopping for an engine now (I've been told
you can't start too soon). I found an IO360 (200hp fuel inj.),
1986 with 250 TT and fresh going thru for $8500.00. Sounds like
a great deal, but I just talked to Van and he had the following
answers to my questions:
Q: Will it fit in the cowl?
A: I only know of one guy who did it and he said he would never
do it again!
Besides, I feel 200hp is too much for an RV.
Q: Is the McCauley CS prop they have OK for a -6?
A: My research on McCauleys show that they have a minimum
diameter of 76" and I recommend maximum of 72.
Q: How much fuel burn difference between 160-180?
A: At rated cruise (75%), about 1.4 to 1.9 gph.
Paul is right, you can throttle-back the 180 and cruise at about
the same speed as a 160 at about the same burn. But don't have
any time to climb contests against him!
If any of you are interested in that IO360 (in spite of the
installation adventure it proposes), let me know, it is still
available.
Keep up the good work Paul, I guess I'll have to wait to get a
ride at this fall's Homecoming :-).
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Chris' Syndrome... |
Okay you guys, there at least 3 "Chris'" on the rv-list now. You three
need to sign your full name so we know who we're listening to. I know,
I know, I know, I could look at the mail header, BUT THAT'S CHEATING!!
Matt Dralle
PS I bet you guys didn't know that I could speak fluent French, did you?
For example, do you know how you would say "Cut the Grass" in French??
Well, "Mow de Lawn" of course...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Chris' Syndrome |
real cute matt....
by the way, welcome chris to the list.
You sure are in good company with this group. lots of -6 & -6As being
built here.
I got my receipt for my deposit for my wings from Van's. They stepped
up the delivery date to 07/15/91. ONLY TWO MONTHS!!!!!!! YIPPEEEEEEE!!
I should get them just before OSH. Oh boy, more tool shopping.
I can see it now.... "well honey, I guess I could build it with what
I`ve got now, but this would do a much better job and make the plane
look soo much better." (heard last year when I bought the back-riveting
tools and that big red bench-mounted dimpling tool).
Avery Tools, watch out!!
chris krieg (satisfied matt?? :-) )
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
ok, 3 months, but still,...... YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
chris krieg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw374.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Since my last report, I've completed the priming and riveting together
of the HS of my RV6A. I ended up using the Stitts epoxy primer, which I
previously used on my Kitfox project. It drys hard as nails and this time
I'm using the yellow (instead of green); real pretty! I highly recommend
it. I plan on painting the whole thing (eventually) with either the
Stitts Aerotane or Alumnathane (sp?) products; I had very good success
with there application on my Kitfox. By the way, I always acid-etch ALL of
the metal (aluminum and steel) prior to priming. And ALL of my interior
parts get primed.
Last month I attended the EAA sponsored RV forum in Maryland. Some real nice
planes there and great demos and speakers. Van and Alan showed up the last
day; Van in his RV-4 and Alan in his brand-new RV6A, which he completed in
6 mnoths!! Turns out he had a problem with a 'leaking' exhaust; last I
heard he thought one of the pipes had cracked. Anyway, it was a great forum.
Well, I'm about to start the skin on the HS. I've decided not to prime the
interior surface of the skin; any feedback on this decision would be welcome.
As for my prior questions concerning tools; ATS has a economic selection
with good service, but for the real important stuff (rivet set, dimple dies,
ect.), AVERY, AVERY AVERY!! I've worked with both, and I've got a bunch of
drilled out rivets from using the ATS stuff. However, I have no problems
with the ATS rivet gun, although the 3x might be a bit too heavy. I'm
thinking about getting a 2x from Avery. Also, talking to Geroge Orndorf at
the RV forum, I'll be using the Avery arbor tool to set all my rivets for the
wing spars and for all my dimpling. I've bought the tool and it works great,
and is half the price that ATS is asking for it, plus I believe its better
constructed.
Finally, I ordered the wing kit (about 3 weeks ago) and have a mid-July
shipping date, so the backlog is not quite as bad as it was.
Gary Bataller
Westboro, MA
RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
My 2 cents worth on several subjects.
exhaust - Paul has the right idea about mild steel versus
stainless. Sometimes the ability to flex is good. Maybe chrome
plating would satisfy any cosmetic issues. As for 'straight
pipes', the optimum would be 4 equal length pipes into a single
outlet/collector pipe. Then one of those new baffle-style
(forget the name) units could be used for adjusting the noise
level. The problem is how to exit the 4-5" outlet from the
cowl... My brother owns a muffler/race car shop so I am going to
see what he can do for exhaust.
chris #3, here is the Desoto info:
To order, call Sue Foye at 1-800-765-9550
Desoto Aerospace Coatings
1608 Fourth Street
Berkeley, CA 94710
The 2-gallon kit (one gallon of Epoxy primer and one of catalyst)
is part #K513x390 $34 (6-11 kit price) which she gave me
$48 (1-5 kit price, normally)
I also recommend getting a gallon of their Epoxy thinner for
thinning, pre-cleaning parts, and cleanup.
part #020x411 $27
Shipping will be additional.
By the way, using those $35 double filter good for 8 hours masks
isn't good enough. I saw another builders setup where he used a
full face mask (ie. scott airpack style) with a flex hose to a
bench mounted airpump with an outside air source. I am trying to
find a similar mask, which new is about $150. Any ideas where to
find a mask? Also, I think an old gun-style hair dryer would
provide an extremely cheap air source.
Rivet guns: Most of us seem happy with the ATS guns. I bought a
rebuilt 2X from them which is fine. I got a bad 3x from another
builder and sent it to ATS for repair - $15 is all they charged!
So now I have the luxury of a heavy gun for the 1/8 rivets and a
lighter one for skins. The rest of the ATS stuff isn't much
good, although for dimpling ribs, I use ATS because they are
cheaper and I don't mind grinding them to fit. I use Avery or US
Ind. for dimpling anything that shows.
I would stay away from ATS for most everything else. By the way,
a GOOD set of files is a must.
Priming skins - I think most of us agree that if we are
putting-in this much time/effort to build these things, we are
going to primer EVERYTHING. Some go to the trouble of
pre-etching, some don't. I have found the Desoto to work fine
w/o etch, as long as the surface is properly cleaned. Up to the
individual.
Keep up the good work! don w.
PS - Paul, myself and the other pilots in my group here at work
are really enjoying your test flying reports. Keep em coming as
your time allows.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
well, another flight under the belt. this one was to test the efficacy of
my rudder fix, and to get my landings publicly aceptable.
I squeezed the rudder down as much as I dared- still too much :( I split the
trailing edge for about 3 inches. well, I says to myself- whata perfect place
for a trim tab. so there it went. doesn't even look like a mistake. so it goes.
so then I went flying. it went fine- no more rudder probems. I did some landing
practice. here's the true skinny- use full flaps. for 3 point, after much
experimentation: 70kt on downwind, 60 on base, and 50 on short final. touch-
down seems to be smoothest if at about 45kias. this is with me, and about 1/2
fuel, so probably about 1250# gross. raise all speeds by the sqrt ratio for
faster speeds, of course. I found it well nigh impossible to apply full flaps
at any speeds above 65 kias.
for wheel landings ( always smoother and longer) I increased all the above
speeds by about 15 kias. rollout takes a while. you're constantly tempted to
let the tail fall early. in a word- don't. this bird loves to fly, and if the
tail falls whilst you're still making 40 kts or so, whoops- you're flyin' agin.
well, then I got lazy. I was supposed to be testing steady-heading side slips
over the slow flight speed range next, but what I did was to go sight-seeing
over sonoma county, roust a few cows from their torpor, and just enjoy the
scenery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Krieg <chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu> |
| Subject: | slowing down a bit |
well, I n about two weeks you'll notice that I won't be posting as much.
You see, I went out and got a new job in aviation. I'm now in flight
management for Executive Jet Aviation here in CMH land. It is an all jet
charter company (the largest in the US as a matter of fact) that flysies
everywhere.
Yup, I'm actually working around the jets that I only used to drool over and
actualluy working in aviation.
I'll keep up on the work on the -6A, but my updates may not come as much as
usual. If you dsend me any questions, please be patient and I'll get back
with you.
My account will stay the same at OSU since they like my work enough there
to let me keep my account in exchange for some consulting when needed.
So, matt, my e-mail address will stay the same.
Oh weell, enough for now, I think I'll go work on the RV.
chris krieg
actual aviation employee
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ces00(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Christopher Schulte) |
| Subject: | Name the Name??? |
I think the rv-6 is going to be Van's best seller... Not from the stand
piont that it is better then the 4 or 3, But simply from the hidden factor.
I read in an artical once that it was the 6 & 6A really came about becuase
builders widows(sp?) didn't want the back seat after they got their hubby's
back....
Chris.
Matt: Just for you, You'll know it's my writting when the name appears
to the Right and ends with a "." Period...
Example:
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
Chris writes:
> I think the rv-6 is going to be Van's best seller... Not from the stand
>piont that it is better then the 4 or 3,
'cause it isn't !!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | RE: The Six is Best |
In no means to affend anyone, as to why the RV-6 is best, If I were
building the airplane for just my self, I think I'd be building a 4! What I
meant is that Builders Wifes and girls freinds don't like ridding the back
seat.. Esspecially mine!
On to other things, How many people have taken in the option of Aleron
Trim? I picked up Van's Kit and was not too impressed with it, Has anyone
else done there trim a different way? Does anyone know how effective the
trim is with Van's Design?
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
Hey Chris- no hard feelings- we'll just have to duke it out when you get
flying. check six! no one around here wants to do any bumpin' with me!
the only aileron trim systems I know of are- 1: van's spring loaded job,
and 2: a mac servo mounted in the wing, driving a tab a-la the elevator.
I wouldn't worry too much about it- the aileron forces are amazingly *small*.
the only advantage I can see is if you need lots of hands-off time for diddling
around in the 'pit looking for foggles or something. actually, if it were me,
I'd look long and hard at doing a wing-leveler- just go for the whole thing!
I've been wondering how much trouble it would be to take an automobile
fuel injection system and adapt it to a lycoming. advantages would be great!
anyone out there have more than a passing knowledge of these systems?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw374.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | dimple vs. countersinking HS skins |
I've finally got my HS all riveted, skins drilled and trimmed and am about
to prepare the skin/rib holes for riveting. Big question; dimple or
countersink? I spoke to Bob Avery yesterday and he recommended dimpling,
however he had nothing negative to say about countersinking except that
it might be less strong than a dimpled assembly. He said that if I went
with the dimpling, I'd have to also dimple the rib/spar also. I'd like
to countersink the rib/spar holes since there's not much clearance to get
the dimpling tool (squeezer) into most of the holes, whereas countersinking
would be easy. He said this might cause a problems as the skin material that
was dimpled would not fit into the countersunk rib/spar hole and the hole
would have to be enlarged. As an alternative he suggested grinding away the
side of the female dimple die and use it for those hard to reach place
on the rib/spar flanges. Still, I don't think I can get the squeezer tool
to the limited spaces. Can I get some feedback from other builders out there?
Other people must have had similar problem.
Gary Bataller
RV6A
Westboro, MA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: dimple vs. countersinking HS skins |
<9105071330.AA08839(at)tdw374.ed.ray.com>
| From: | Martin R. Calsyn <martin(at)iastate.edu> |
> ... Big question; dimple or
> countersink? ...
My answer - both...
I dimpled all HS skin holes EXCEPT for those along the trailing edge.
There was no way the dimple tool would fit in there. I used a
venier-stop countersink on those. The rivet gun and a b-bar with a very
thin edge worked well for applying the trailing-edge rivets. I was able
to get away without any pop-rivets in the leading edge.
---
Martin R. Calsyn martin(at)iastate.edu
Project Vincent Systems Support gg.mrc(at)isumvs.bitnet
Iowa State University Computation Center voice: (515) 294-9889
Ames, Iowa 50011 fax: (515) 294-1717
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
| Subject: | dimple vs countersink |
Gary
i would agree with martin. Cntrsk all that you can. If you drilled
the centerline of the spar/rib flanges you should have room for die.
Those holes you can't get the die into you can countersink.
If you do decide to countersink all i would think you would want to
do the countersinking with the skin in place on ribs.
That way the pilot has more hole depth to stabilize itself. And definetley
spend some money on a good microstop cutter. Averys seems pretty good.
ATS seems pretty bad.
And also if you dimple dont be shy about giving the tool a solid hit
with the mallet--especially for the .032.
Rivets on my HS don't look as tight as on subsequent
parts because of this.
happy dimpling/countersinking
Chris Moody
RV-6
DC area
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
Gary:
Glad to see your ready to place your fisrt skins, I know how it feels,
Since I just finished up my H.S. over the last weekend. I think everyone goes
throught the Q's of Dimple v Countersink. For starter I do NOT think it wise
at all to counter sink the rib/spars as oposed to the skin. The skin will
have a very fulsh contact with the rivet. as the rib/spar will not be near as
good since the skin was dimpled. Both surfaces are .032? so all stuctural
weaknesses will still be there, just as if the skin were dimpled... That is
not to say that countersinking breads structural weekness.
I chose to countersink my skins becuase I like the Quality look, There
are options to this too, Like dimpling the bottom of the wing and counter-
sinking the top. Or in your case, maybe Dimple the outer ribs( you should
have easily been able to hit the center of these with your eyes closed!) for
strength and countersink all the iner ribs/spars. The last option is to use
one inch rivet spacing along those parts of the skin that are countersunk.
Van says that th 1.25 inch is a max rivet spacing...
Chris.
RV-6
San Jose CA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw374.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | dimple vs cntrsnk; thanks for the input |
Martin/Chris/Chris:
Thanks for the quick feedback on the dimple vs. cntrsnk question. After
experimenting, I've decided to countersink the HS skins. I find it to look
a bit better, and due to my 'not quite on center' rivet holes along the ribs
and spars, it will work out alot better. However, the ATS cntrsink tool
leaves a nice big circle from the foot of the tool. I put some ducttape on
it, but it still isn't satisfactory. I called Avery and a cntrsink tool with
a nylon foot is on the way. I should have all the holes cntrsunk and the
skin inner surfaces primed on Saturday, with the flush riveting on Sunday.
Should be an interesting weekend as my wife wants me to put in a brick
walkway. I smell a big fight coming. Does anybody else end up sleeping
on the couch alot?
Gary Bataller
RV6A
Westboro, MA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
| Subject: | Re: dimple vs cntrsnk; thanks for the input |
Questair has us countersinking everything. So we're following the
book mostly. We are using rivets with slightly larger heads than
they supply though..
Right wing complete! We used 3 times as much tank sealant as they
supplied for the whole plane though. Pricy stuff. All the more
because by the time we got to the tank sealing part, the sealant
had expired. It probably would have been ok to use but I couldn't
bear it and ordered new stuff.
Bret Marquis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: dimple vs cntrsnk; thanks for the input |
>
> Martin/Chris/Chris:
> Thanks for the quick feedback on the dimple vs. cntrsnk question. After
> experimenting, I've decided to countersink the HS skins. I find it to look
> a bit better, and due to my 'not quite on center' rivet holes along the ribs
> and spars, it will work out alot better. However, the ATS cntrsink tool
> leaves a nice big circle from the foot of the tool. I put some ducttape on
> it, but it still isn't satisfactory. I called Avery and a cntrsink tool with
> a nylon foot is on the way. I should have all the holes cntrsunk and the
> skin inner surfaces primed on Saturday, with the flush riveting on Sunday.
> Should be an interesting weekend as my wife wants me to put in a brick
> walkway. I smell a big fight coming. Does anybody else end up sleeping
> on the couch alot?
>
> Gary Bataller
> RV6A
> Westboro, MA
>
You could make her a deal... 'Might go something like this:
Her: "Honey... Are going to put that brick walkway in this weekend? You
know, I'm starting to feel a headache coming on... It may last
weeks..."
You: "But Dear, what about my plane? I have to fly to OSH in '92."
Her: "Hoooney... my headache is getting worse..."
You: "Okay Dear, I'll make you a deal..."
Her: (Face brightens as if winning a victory)
You: "...this weekend *I'll* work on my plane just I had planned,
and (handing her 2 aspirin) *you* start on the walkway..."
Now, if you can still see straight, you will have scored a victory for mankind
and husbands everywhere!
Maybe that's why I'm not married... ...'course, I can work on my RV
anytime I want!
Ha!
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
dralle(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Matt, you scum... |
Or, you might try my set-up...
I have it worked-out that saturdays are mine and sundays are
the family's. during the week I hit the shop anytime i can
get away with it, usually when the kids (4 & 1) go up for
their bath, I head for the garage for the evening. I do
have a TV out there so she can come-out and visit if she
wants.
This way, if there are household 'projects', I can weasel
them into sunday (usually).
By the way, it's monday now... how is that sidewalk
coming.....:-)
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | news update on our rv-6 |
| From: | aviator(at)sequent.com |
hi gang:
well, work on our rv-6 has been slow, as my partner gets closer
and closer to getting his house done. we have managed to get the
replacement right elevator done, get the servo, electric and trim tab
stuff for the left one done, and they have both been hung on the stab
and they fit real nice! this weekend, we will close the rudder and then
we move into my partner's shop! hey, i can have that half of my
garage back (my fiance will be happy to get her car in the garage!).
i have two questions: first, those of you who put electric
pitch trim in and used the small horn and internal rod, like matt's;
did you do anything to limit the travel of the servo, so it didn't over-
drive the tab? we opened the servo up and rebuilt the switch-
tripper-gizmo to limit the travel. what did you folks do?
second, the left elevator (with servo) seems considerably
heavier than the right. matt, how much lead did it take in the left
elevator ctrweight? 5 lbs? i know for mine, two lbs is not enough, it
looks like more like 4-5?
my fiance came up with the perfect epithet when discussing
the number of rivets in an rv: "it's not the rivets that count, its
the holes" yep, at least two for every (*^%$#@$ rivet!
keep on buildin'
jim harriger
w/ ron ebersole
aviator(at)sequent.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw374.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Just read Jim H's progress report on his rv6 tail and I'm real interested
in the responses to his questions on the elevator trim/lead wt., as I've
just finished up the HS (yeah, skins finally on) and will be also putting
the electric trim on. In addition, I have another question, which I hope
someone can answer:
No matter how carefully I riveted the skins on the HS, there is a slight
'edge' on some on the rivet/skin interfaces. That is, if you run your finger
over the flush rivet heads, some of them are not 100% flush; ie. you can
feel a slight edge. Since others must have experienced this, how do you
deal with it? Is there some sort of 'microshaver' you use to smooth up this
edge, or do you just leave it? I suppose emery cloth could help, but I am
concerned about the Alclad surface. Help...
Also, since my tail will be sitting unused for several years (yes, I'm a
realist), I've decided to prime the exterior surfaces in the near future.
Do most people do this, or prime just before the finish paint is to be
applied? The Stitts primer I'm using dries into a VERY hard, durable finish
after a few days, and will need to be roughed up prior to paint (one of these
years).
And on a final note, I still haven't done the brick walkway (I managed to
substitute sanding and painting the wrought-iron rails on our front entrance
instead), but there's no way I can do the next rv part (elevator) until
my masonry skills have been demonstrated. This weekend I'm going up to the
annual Hampton, NH aviation flea-market to since what good junk I can acquire.
Only problem is my bank account is down to zero, but my wife's has mucho
dinero; I see this next fight a brewin...
disclaimer: Before I hear from the newly married out there, I've been very
happily married for ~15 years, have 4 great kids, am not a sexist and my
wife and I have this airplane thing all worked out, so my comments are mostly
in jest.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G. Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: news update on our rv-6 |
> i have two questions: first, those of you who put electric
> pitch trim in and used the small horn and internal rod, like matt's;
> did you do anything to limit the travel of the servo, so it didn't over-
> drive the tab? we opened the servo up and rebuilt the switch-
> tripper-gizmo to limit the travel. what did you folks do?
With the S6 servo, I just used the little plastic limiters that came with
the servo. Other than that, the throws were just right. When using a very
small arm, very minor adjustments (1/32") on hole location will have
significante effect on the amount of throw.
> second, the left elevator (with servo) seems considerably
> heavier than the right. matt, how much lead did it take in the left
> elevator ctrweight? 5 lbs? i know for mine, two lbs is not enough, it
> looks like more like 4-5?
Humm, yes I did add a bit more but I don't think it was all that significatly
more than the other side. I didn't actually weigh the amount of lead I used.
I statically balanced it then added a bit more to compensate for paint weight
later.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
> feel a slight edge. Since others must have experienced this, how
> do you deal with it? Is there some sort of 'microshaver' you use
> to smooth -up this edge, or do you just leave it? I suppose
> emery cloth could help, -but I am concerned about the Alclad
> surface. Help...
What happened to nicer finish... :-) Several of us in the Portland
area have sworn-off mach cntrsinks, but you either leave them
(maximum strength) or file/sand/shave them off (strength
penalty?). On the one srfce I have them on, I am going to sand
them lightly.
> realist), I've decided to prime the exterior surfaces in the near
> future. Do most people do this, or prime just before the finish
> paint is to be applied? The Stitts primer I'm using dries into a
> VERY hard, durable -finish after a few days, and will need to be
> roughed up prior to paint (one -of these years).
The primer I'm using doesn't require sanding before painting if you
paint within the proper time period. Corosion won't be a problem
if you store halfway decently, so I'd NOT prime now, do it when
you paint.
Project update: I was told it's never too soon to shop for an
engine, and since the prices aren't likely to decrease, I took
that literally and just bought an engine (remember I'm not yet
halfway thru my wings). I got an 11hr since cermichrome majored
O-360-A2G, complete with all majored components (carb, starter,
alt, mags, etc.), out of a wing/tail damaged Beech Sport. All for
the (cough, gag) low price of $8600.00. The shop I got it from is
the same one that did the engine for that guy who flew the purple
RV-4 to the suthun tip of South America, so I think they are
reliable. Seem so.
Jim H. It would be cool if you and Ron could come to the builders
group in his Great Lakes, eh? Hope to see you guys there (6/1 @
Vernonia). BTW, I used the same plans-size area for lead in both
elev cntrwts, just had to fill the one with the trim servo a tad
more.
Better get crackin so I have a place to hang that engine.
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tdw374.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Vertical Stab question |
Well, I've finished the Horizontal Stab (decided to hold off on the exterior
prime coat until final paint is ready to be applied) and am now into the
Vertical Stab. So far I've built the rear spar and squared, drilled and
clecoed both spars and all four ribs. Came out with the 85, 90 and 97.5
degrees called for so I'm satified so far. However, I've only drilled the
center set of brackets and not the other two because the drawing only
shows the bracket dimensions for the center bracket set on the rear-spar
drawing (sorry, I don't have the drawings in front of me). However, the
B-B sectional view shows the distance between the midpoints of each of the
matching points on the elevator assembly. I'm about to use this dimensions
to drilled the brackets on the VS, but I'm curious why the VS rear-spar
drawing only shows dimensions from the 6" point from the bottom of the spar
and upwards (except for the top set of brackets which are not dimensioned).
As long as I follow the dimensions on the Elevator for the VS brackets I
guess I'll be alright. Anymore insight out there?
Finally, a 3 day weekend coming up. Hope to complete the VS and perhaps
either the Rudder or Elevator. Any recommendations which to do first?
Also, I'll be dimpling instead of cntrsnking this time. I'll let you know
what I find to be the pros and cons (since thie control surface skin is
thinner, I guess dimpling is the way to go).
gary bataller
westboro, ma
rv6a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | Vertical Stab question |
----------------------------------------> I'm about to use this dimensions
>to drilled the brackets on the VS, but I'm curious why the VS rear-spar
>drawing only shows dimensions from the 6" point from the bottom of the spa
>and upwards (except for the top set of brackets which are not dimensioned)
>As long as I follow the dimensions on the Elevator for the VS brackets I
>guess I'll be alright. Anymore insight out there?
Gary,
I/m building the '6' so, our tails are the same, I'll be riveting on
the V.S. Skin Today, an if I remember(No plans in front of me either) There
are two dimensioned drawing of the V.S. on Drawing #4 One from the pilot's
side and the other from the rear. The side demensions have the distances
messured from the top tip rib, remeber that the bottom brackets are spaced
1/2" apart not 7/16"...
>Finally, a 3 day weekend coming up. Hope to complete the VS and perhaps
>either the Rudder or Elevator. Any recommendations which to do first?
>Also, I'll be dimpling instead of cntrsnking this time. I'll let you know
>what I find to be the pros and cons (since thie control surface skin is
>thinner, I guess dimpling is the way to go).
>
> gary bataller
> westboro, ma
> rv6a
>
Yes, a three day weekend is nice, But need to work on Satureday and
Sunday is the Watsonville Fly-in EAA and Airshow! So looks like I get a
whole Monday to work. The plans have the Elevators next, But I think I
will construct the ruder next... Any Reason??? None....
Chris.
180 CS / RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
....
Well, Mark me down for another one. Part two of my RV-6 is now complete
as I put the skin onto the Vertical Stabilizer and finished it last night!
Boy it's a real work of art, things begin to move a little after a while(I
mean with the H.S. under my belt).
I've got a few Ideas I think to share to y'all. If you build the H.S or
the V.S Don't rivet the rear spar to the assembly until LAST... This way if
you just have it clecoed in place you can remove it and buck the skins inside
I think it's much better then bending the skin up to buck, and plus you can
see what your doing!!
Next tip, I did this on the V.S. and it worked extremly well. Don't
machine countersink the holes until you are ready to rivet. When I made the
H.S I MC'd (machine countersunk) the skin after drilling it the I removed it,
deburred all the hole and primed the skin. When I placed it all back not all
the rivets went in 100% perfect, Maybe I'm picky. On the V.S. and from here
on out, I drilled and removed the skin to debure and primer, Then I replaced
the skin, clecoed it down, every 3rd hole and MC'd the other holes, then I
riveted the skin on. I think the clecoes hold better in a non MC'd hole and
therfore the skin remain perctly in place. One last word. For 100% flush
rivets, you can't tell were they are by feel. The MC'd hole needs to be one
thousandth of depper then the rivet, when you shoot the rivet it expands and
fills in to a true flush skin!
In close I guess I sholud add the standard disclaimer as * Your results
may vary * and * * I am only expressing my opinion, my techniques should be
as an alternative idea NOT nessasarily the correct way to do things *
Chris.
RV-6
San Jose
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | Rudder Stifners? |
This question is to those of you who have experienced working with control
surface construction, Mainly the thin .016 skins. I experimented a little
bit and found the best result is to back rivet the thin skin material. But
I've noticed that when I back rivet(this is with tape over the manufactureed
head to keep it in place) That the result rivit head is no longer flush, But
a little bit Round!
Hase anyone else had this result? Is there a solution, It is not riviting
from the front becuase I tried that and it leave very slight indendations in
the skin.
I got a little advise for those starting controll sufaces, Build the right
Elevator first! Why, The elevator? Becuse you have the bottom for
additional practice, if you build the rudder first, Both sides are visable!
Also the right elevator has no trim tab.
Happy Building!
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
Okay,
My RV-6 Rudder is now on the finished list! What tips can I share?
Number one, is on the construction of the vertical spar assembly. when
fitting the reinforcement plates to the spare round the edges till the
plate fits nicely into the spare flanges (the plates actualy go behind
the spare) Once the plate fits drill a 3/32 hole in the center, MC count-
ersink it and place a long flush rivet in the hole. Now you a guide as
where to place th rod end. The Rod ends have a small (about 3/32) hole
in the back of them, Hold this assembly together and you can easily align
it up with the Vertical Stab. Then you draw a line at the top or bottom
of the plate. Now you know where the rod end will sit! Next remove the
rivet and clamp the plate into place (using the line you drew). Next drill
the 1/8" holes that hold the plate (yes the plate is still on the op side
of that spar) Clecoe the holes and drill the large rod end hole. Now take
it apart and move the plate to the backside of the spar, install the rod
end and the rivnut! Wah Lah! Pefect Center'd allignment!!!
Oh yes, the above works great for the top two plates, The lower plate
should be installed per the dimensions in the plans!! Second tip, On the
root ribs it's easier to MC countersink the trailing 2 or 3 rivet holes
since there is not enough room to fit in the dimler! Last tip.. I think
ther may be a demsension error on the rudder skin cutting diagram, The top
notch in the skin (fo rhte rod end) is more centered if it is made 1/4 "
closer to the middle rod end notch, Use your better judgment. I did not
cut the notches in the skin until I had the spare clecoed inplace so I could
see exactly how deep to make the cuts. Oh yes, be sure to cut all the way
to the spar else when you round the over hang it may not round as easily.
That's all the advise I can give! If you need a better explination of
what I did, feel free to call me anytime!
Work# 1-800-538-8460 x67422
Home# 1-408-274-9249
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | Elevator Construction |
Question to those Elevator Vetrans:
Did anyone chose to place the elevator counter wait SKIN on the outside
of the primary elevator skin, this would appear to reduce drag a little bit.
The plans call for this extra piece to tuck under the E-X01 in skin. Any
pro's or con's on this topic?
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Stifners? |
> This question is to those of you who have experienced working with control
> surface construction, Mainly the thin .016 skins. I experimented a little
> bit and found the best result is to back rivet the thin skin material. But
> I've noticed that when I back rivet(this is with tape over the manufactureed
> head to keep it in place) That the result rivit head is no longer flush, But
> a little bit Round!
>
> Hase anyone else had this result? Is there a solution, It is not riviting
> from the front becuase I tried that and it leave very slight indendations in
> the skin.
>
> I got a little advise for those starting controll sufaces, Build the right
> Elevator first! Why, The elevator? Becuse you have the bottom for
> additional practice, if you build the rudder first, Both sides are visable!
> Also the right elevator has no trim tab.
> Happy Building!
> Chris.
I have found that using the rubber bootie flush rivit set in a standard
configuration works quite nicely, even on the .016 skins. Care must
be taken but that dish shaped rivit head doesn't seem to be a problem, as
them come out quite flat.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
rv-list%matronics.com(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Construction |
> Did anyone chose to place the elevator counter wait SKIN on the outside
> of the primary elevator skin, this would appear to reduce drag a little bit.
> The plans call for this extra piece to tuck under the E-X01 in skin. Any
> pro's or con's on this topic?
> Chris.
I seem to recall a structural reason behind this desision on Van's part
but I can't remember exactly why. I'd call them and ask for sure...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
hey guys- here's an update on my flight testing.
the flutter testing was uneventful, if not nervous...I dove it to 200kt,
and tested all 3 axes with couplets and then heel raps to excite the system,
but it seems unflappable. I'm not surprised, as we've heard about a lot of
RV's that have accidently been way over Vne with no ill effects.
I loaded up the rear seat with 150# of lead weights and flew it that way
a while. hmmm- I sure like it solo better. ground handling is far better
without, and of course my timed climbs were worse. however, stick forces
in pitch became much lighter. I still have to increase the incidence angle
on my horizontal stabiliser. maybe this weekend.
I did run into a problem with my oil cooler. on a long climb on a hot day
( actually on my way to Merced) my oil temp went to redline. This had never
happened before, but it had never been so hot before either. I had a suspicion
that it was the tranny cooler that Van sells, that was inadequate, or perhaps
the routing of cool air wasn't enough. it turned out that I had the oil
cooler hooked up to two pressure ports, and not to one return port. naturally,
since that was where the existing fittings were! so- don't trust anything
but the engine handbook, or a very knowldegeable A&P. Anyway, I had replaced
Van's cooler with an a/c cooler, mounted on the front horizontal baffle.
we'll see this weekend if that does it. BTW, using the A/C cooler allows you
to use #8 lines rather than #6 lines like Van's cooler does.
turns out that at speeds close to max, I have a heavy wing. not much, but a
small trim tab is called for, I think. oh well. the side to side weights
were close, so it's an aerodynamic thing.
in the general info dept. : I learned that those cool steel braided oil/fuel
lines are not as good a quality as the aeroquip 303 line. it turns out that
the rubber etc below the braid is not nearly the quality of the 303 stuff.
in fact, there is an AD out for any steel braided lines to be replaced with
303 or equivalent line.
otherwise, it's been a blast. turns out we run circles around t-34's and
t-6's. fun... I flew off in a 3-ship with 2 t-6's last weekend. had to hold
only 2200 turns to let them stay with me in the climb, and that was only at
around 1400 fpm. and they're burning 50 gal/hr :)
and finally, I'm in an aeroplane that can do the trick I've watched the
bluwe angels do a lot, and it looks so cool. to turn right, they roll left
315 degrees. only in a fast rolling plane will this look good. and that's
what it's all about!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | test flight update |
Paul, sounds like you are doing what RV builders are supposed to
do: having a ball with your RV! That's what we are laboring
towards guys.
Right now I can hear jets overhead practising for tomorrows
Hillsboro airshow (Intel is in under the traffic approach to the
main runway). Between that and reading Paul's test flight info, I
am having one hell of a time concentrating on work!
Thanks for the update Paul,
don w.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)bartman.mitre.org (Chris Moody) |
paul,
thanks loads for the info and the inspiration. And thanks for leaving
another guy in his office unable to concentarte on work!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
Well, I'm not quit done with the Right Elevator - Need to add the
counterweight Skin. But through the door.... WINGs! My wings are going to be
deliv- ered Tomorrow, guess I'll have to take the day off of work... DARN!
Chris.
weighs the same?
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Technical Question?? |
>
> I'm installing the MAC servo trim, and I have a question about Elevator
> ballancing... Do you ballance each Elv independently, or as a unit? If I
> ballance as a unit, should I add equal weight to each Elv, or should I add
> more weight to the the right elevator, so each one weighs the same?
> Chris.
Humm, this is an interesting question. I balanced my seprately but now
that you mention it, which is more correct. What do some of you
other builder's think?
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Technical Question?? |
>
> I'm installing the MAC servo trim, and I have a question about
-Elevator
> ballancing... Do you ballance each Elv independently, or as a
-unit? If I
> ballance as a unit, should I add equal weight to each Elv, or should
-I add
> more weight to the the right elevator, so each one weighs the same?
> Chris.
Humm, this is an interesting question. I balanced my seprately but now
that you mention it, which is more correct. What do some of you
other builder's think?
Matt Dralle
Ditto your response Matt.
Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
Dave Lewis Sr. who's built a bunch of RV's says to balance
them separately.
They hang weights on the counterbalance using safety
wire until its close before melting them.
Bret Marquis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clout!gargoyle!rpslmc.edu!lackerma(at)gargoyle.uchicago.edu (lauren ackerman) |
| Subject: | time to completion and daydreaming |
Paul,
You have told us about the thrills of completion and testing...what
about the long hours to complete your project...When did you start? How long
has it taken you to complete? Have you built other planes. Questions from
someone finishing the H.S. and starting the V.S...gazing into the
distant future.
laurens
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
well, it took way too long. I was surprised that it took me 6 years- I had
expected more like 3-4 years, esp after hearing about Tolles times. course, a
new job, moving to another town, getting a divorce- all lengthened the time
considerably.
I found the wings and fuselage went fast and fun. esp the fuselage. big things
happened fast.
finishing the thing after it was on the gear- installing the engine, wiring,
harnesses- all the myriad details took MUCH longer than I expected.
no - this was the first plane ( and the last) that I've built.
I credit building at the airport for the engine installation for a lot of saved
time and learning- doing the airframe at home is ok, but you need the help
and cross-pollenisation of being out there with A&P's, other builders to do
it right.
for example- what color should you paint your engine mount? black is cool,
but white will make cracks easier to detect...
what kind of crimper should you use on your wires- did you know there is
more than one kind?
know where to hook up your oil cooler? oil temp sensor? the two ways you
can hook up your mags? the difference between shower of sparks and impuse
coupled mags?
I learned ( am silll learning) a lot from being out there most weekends.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
Yes!!!
More airplane plane parts!! My wings got delivered yesterday, and in-
ventory was in order... The Gargage filled up quick and it was not long
till I stole the spare bedroom and christened it "The RV-6 Storage Room".
Well except for one small detail, The Plogiston Spars needed to go in the
living room!!!!
Merry Construction to all,
and to all a good flight!!
Chris.
RV-6
#21390
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
| Subject: | Questair progress report |
We're in the 10% phase of the building process. ie 10% to go so that
means we still have 90% of the labor ahead of us! :-)
What the kit really seems to be is a set of general plans and parts
that don't really go together without serious work and rework. Henry,
my sheet metal man (years at Lockheed building toys for the military),
looks at the plans, reads the construction manual, takes the factory
fabricated part and shapes the part to the point it matches the plans,
then while attempting to mount it to the airframe, finds that it
doesn't fit. He calls Questair, who with a note of amazement in their
voice declares that they are astounded that it wouldn't fit, thought
all the kits had been shipped the corrected parts and promises to ship
the correct one immediately. Henry ends finally ends up fabricating
the part from raw materials himself.
This scenario has repeated itself more times than I can count. The
most recent iteration involved the fuel sump. A box with a flapper
valve that is fed fuel from the tanks and then routes it on to the
engine. We built one to spec, it wouldn't fit, we called the factory,
they sent us one prefab, it was 1/2 inch too wide to go where it was
supposed to so we had to cut it in half, shrink it, seal it then
install it. This took two weeks..
The landing gear works. Installing and fitting the gear doors should have
taken 4-6 hours. Instead its taken (to date) almost a month. Besides
having to fit flush when closed, they are also the speed brakes so they
are quite rigid (gear speed is 180 knots). Eliminating air gaps and
assuring smooth operation, has been cause for many sleepless nights and
hours on the phone to the factory.. The plans do not adequately cover
this part.
Still in all progress has been forward and steady. The seat (frames)
are installed, so I sat in the plane and pretended to fly and made
engine noises this weekend during the Hillsboro OR airshow. We rolled
the plane out of the hangar on its own wheels and I really enjoyed
that! `Course it wasn't the official rollout, this one was done just
to vacuum out the work area. Engine and prop are installed, landing
gear is on and works quite well. Up and down limit switches wouldn't
fit where the factory wanted them but are installed and work perfectly.
Emergency gear extension system works perfectly. Main gear doors are
on and fit well. Left wing is finished, control systems are being
installed, nose gear steering is working, brakes are being installed
with a few changes (I'm using Cleveland master cylinders instead of the
ones custom made for Questair. {another story}), the instrument panel
is back on track after a delay due to theft of some of the avionics
from the shop a few months ago. The avionics man is still scratching
his head trying to figure out where to put all the antennas (2 comm, 2
nav, dme, loran, transponder, marker beacon and ADF all on a plane that
looks the size of a VW bug! Even though all are fibreglass blades, I
still will probably lose a few knots from the drag..)
To date it has exceeded my original time and cost estimates for
completion. Was supposed to have taken 4 months and we are into its
second year. Costs were supposed to be around $40k labor, its double
that (so far). I expect I'll have about $160,000 into by the time its
finished.. A flying Venture is on the market for $250,000 so maybe it
will be worth it.. Its been a while since I've flown in one and I
could use a jolt to put me back in the required lunatic state of mind
necessary to be properly involved in a project like this..
As far as the company itself is concerned: They are having financial
problems, builders who have ordered (and paid) for kits have taken a
beating if they haven't recieved their engines yet. For those
unfamiliar with the Questair Venture purchase deal, the kit was
originally sold for $49000 including engine and prop. The price went
up to $57,500 after the first year which is what i paid for mine. In
1990 the price went to $65000. When Questairs money problems started
getting serious, they told all purchasers that they could no longer
supply engines and props if they hadn't already been delivered. An
additional $16,000 would be required on top of the purchase price for
the engine and prop. I took delivery of my Continental engine and
McCauley constant speed prop a few months before the announcement.
In the last couple of weeks, Questair has had a few personnel changes,
Jim Griswald left the company a year ago, Doug Griswald left the
company last week. They are still in business albeit reorganizing under
Chapter 11. They are shipping kits and this month had their best month
ever. The pricing structure has changed a bit.. I think its about
40-45000 for the kit w/o the engine or prop allowing owners to buy new
for cost of find a rebuilt/used one on their own.. Quite a few are
nearing completion with one making its maiden flight last week in
Grants Pass, Oregon. (three planes at that airport with 2 flying now).
I don't know exact numbers but around 10 customer built planes are
flying.
While I'm covering all bases, I thought I'd mention that the official
test pilot from Questair does not like spins and so hasn't done any
spin testing yet. Hal Avery, builder and part owner of the first
customer built plane flying, plans to spin his plane this summer. He
has done several other aerobatic maneuvers (loops and rolls) with great
success (and pleasure). After 200 hours of flight time and several
cross country flights, he says real world cruise numbers for his plane
are 230 knots and 15gph. Says the plane will cruise faster but he
likes those numbers.
Completion date? dunno. I hate to guess since its past so many other
completion dates.. I can't see it ready for OSH but I do feel it will
fly sometime this summer... Murphy permitting..
Bret Marquis
bam(at)trout.nosc.mil
Venture N3VD (HXC/R)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | Elevator Insight |
Well... Last week I finished up my right elevator only to notice there
was about 3/16" woble on one side of the elevator and the corect 1/16" woble
onb the other side? I used Van's method of weights and a shim on a flat sur
face, but still??? After talking with a few other builders in my area I've
concluded you can make a much more accurate build by use of a vertical jig.
So, if you have yet to do you Elevators I would recommend this to the
table top method... Although the table top method did work perfect for my
rudder, there is more room for error.
I've decided to use the right elevator as decore for my office, just
above my terminal, and build another one(after I finish the Fusalage) Now
it's time to get on with the wings!!!
Would anyone care to share some enlightning information on wing con-
struction... best place to start? Flaps? Ailerons? Tanks? I spent
the weekend cleaning out the garage and setting things up for the wings!
Chris.
RV-6
#21390
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
Flop Tube users:
Looking ahead in the wings, I'm thinking of using a flop tube in
my fuel tanks... But where is the best place to mount the Fuel Level
Detector now? Since the tube takes up most of the inboard tank...
Chris. RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
> Flop Tube users:
>
> Looking ahead in the wings, I'm thinking of using a flop tube in
> my fuel tanks... But where is the best place to mount the Fuel Level
> Detector now? Since the tube takes up most of the inboard tank...
>
> Chris. RV-6
It should be located in the second bay from the root, on the back baffle.
Installation is detailed in the "extra" pages that come with the manual.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Wings n' Stuff... |
> From: christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com
> Subject: Wing question?
>
> Matt...
> I'm getting ready to start the wings, Should I build the control surfaces
> first? or save it for last? Next qustion.. did you align and drill the ribs
> before mounting the main spare in the jig??? Is it easier either way?
>
> Any other advise before starting??
> Chris.
No, wait on the control surfaces. It will give you something to work on
that's easy after being sick and tired of working on the wings!!
I built the ribs into the spar while it was in the jig. Just feels better
because you can be sure that the alinment of the front and rear spars are
perfect.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | christopher.schulte(at)amail.amdahl.com |
| Subject: | Hunting for parts |
Outside of Aircraft Spruce is there some good companys to pick up a
catalog or two from? Right now I'm working on the left wing and I need
to pick up my light system and a heated pitot tube. Anybody with some
good companys to call or write could you please post them???
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | misg!seahcx!phred!dougm(at)travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (RV-6A wannabuild) |
| Subject: | Allan Tolle's new RV-6A |
Arlington '91 was this past week and I made it up for most of
Friday afternoon through the airshow which got over about 7:00.
I spent quite a bit of time looking at Allan Tolle's new RV-6A.
While I don't think I'll copy his paint colors, the plane is
VERY nice! The pictures in Sport Aviation don't do it justice
in my opinion. I also spent some time talking to him about
his plane and RV's in general. I'll try to summarize the
discussion in the following:
General Construction techniques:
Allan believes pretty strongly in dimpling if possible. He only
countersinks where he has to. He backriveted just about the
whole plane including the wings and fuselage. His wife Diana
puts the rivets in and then holds the bucking bar while he
backrivets. The backriveting gives him a very clean skin. He
also doesn't believe in electric trim or flaps. He says it is
just one more thing to break ("mechanical things work, they
don't break").
General comments about the plane:
The sliding canopy looks real nice! I will probably go with the
taller canopy because of my height (6'-6"), but the general
scheme is the same. The canopy sticks out a little bit at the
back end to insure water will not get into the cockpit. The canopy lock is in
the top center at the front of the sliding part of the
canopy. He didn't have anyway to lock the canopy with a key. Allan
also took out the center console and mounted his throttle, mixture,
and prop controls on a little panel under the instrument panel
in the center of the plane. The elevator trim is mounted on a
little custom bracket right between the seats at the front of
the seats. He uses the shorter flap handle as shown in one of
the previous RVator newsletters. In addition to the movable
trim on the elevator, the plane has two fixed trim tabs -- one
on the right aileron and one on the rudder.
He used the standard .016 skin on the empennage control surfaces
though alot of people I have talked to recommend the .020 instead.
He had a neat little gadget on his position lights that I haven't
noticed on any other planes -- a piece of plexiglass sticks up
just over the wing and apparently allows the pilot to see if the
position light is on. I thought it was a pretty slick idea.
Someone asked about antennas in an earlier post, Allan has seven.
Let's see if I can remember all of them. First, on top about
halfway between the front of the tail and the rear of the canopy
is a straight up antenna for the ELT. Second, on the bottom of
the horizontal stabilizer was a "V" shaped antenna with the arms
of the "V" parallel to the ground and pointing back. That's for
the VOR. Third and fourth are two antennas that are swept down
and back and placed about between the main landing gear on the
bottom of the plane. One was for the NAV/COM and I believe the
other was for the LORAN. Fifth and sixth are two short stubby
antennas lined up on the center of the fuselage bottom and under
the cockpit. These are for the DME and the transponder. Finally,
the seventh is a Marker Beacon receiver and is a fiberglass encased
antenna about 2 inches high and 7 inches long. It is located
between the DME and transponder antennas. Allan figures the seven
antennas cost him about 2-4 mph at the top end but "they work."
I have looked alot at the factory prototypes (both at Arlington
and at the factory when I took the builder's course) and it is
really nice to see a fully upholstered and very clean airplane.
If you have any questions, let me know. Hopefully the questions
will prod my brain into action.
Doug Medema
RV-6A wannabuild
________________________________________________________________________________
Question:
I've got all my ribs in on the left wing of my RV-6 and will soon
be into installing the Pitot Tube, I'm going to install a heated tube under
my wing and would like to ask if anyone knows any pro/cons or preferance to
going with a standard pitot tube or a pitot-static tube? The price differ-
ance is about $50.00....
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list%matronics.com(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com
| Subject: | Re: Hunting for parts |
>
> Outside of Aircraft Spruce is there some good companys to pick up a
> catalog or two from? Right now I'm working on the left wing and I need
> to pick up my light system and a heated pitot tube. Anybody with some
> good companys to call or write could you please post them???
>
>
> Chris.
Yes, Cheif Aircraft parts has about the best prices around *if* they have
what you want. The definately have strobe/lighting stuff and the heated
pitot tube stuff you're looking for.
Also Wicks has a catalog you might want to get, although their selection is
rather limited.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
Well, I'm about to start skinning the wings! Actually just the Left
wing. After looking through the old RVators I've desided to write our net
and see if anyone has some good tips on were to start.
I've noticed in some issues it talks about ataching the main skins on
first and then doing the leading edge and tank skins. But doesn't that
leave a chance of haveing too much skin on the leading edge??? HELP!
Chris.
P.S. I also op'd to replace the two top skins with one long sheet of
.032 so I wouldn't have a seem in the middle of the wing. Liked to here
any ideas from the folks that have done this.
________________________________________________________________________________
Chris,
I am just finishing up my wings -- here are the things I would do or do
differently if I was to start another RV today.
- I used the one piece .032 top skins, I like them, but they
do add a little weight of course.
- I attached the leading edge skins first as per the directions
in the manual. If I were to do it again, I would attach the
main skins first and then tighten the leading edge skin down
to the main skins after they are already installed. This would
make it much easier to get a nice seam clear across the wing. I
don't think it will be a serious problem of having too much or
too little skin on the leading edge if you correctly place the
mains skin with reference to the spar.
_ I built both wings at once. Definitely a win if you have the
room to do it.
- I traded the aileron 0.016 skins for 0.020. Again, I think this
is a worthwhile tradeoff. Yes the weight is a little more, but
the 0.020 is MUCH easier to work with and stronger as well.
_ Rivet the top main skins on first, there really is no reason that
you can't get to every rivet on the bottom main skins to rivet
them last, that way you can easily get to both sides and do a
really nice job on the top skins.
- Put tubes or some other means in the ribs to allow the routing of
wires to the wingtips at a later date. Preferably forward of the
spar so you don't have to figure out how to get the wires from
the aft side of the spar up to the panel without cutting holes
in your spar.
Well, I can't think of any other tips right now, I'm sure Don Wentz has some
that he can pass along to you as well.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Weight of course |
In case anyone is wondering the what kind of weight factor is invovled
with the one piece .032 top wing skin. It works out to a little under 1.25
pounds per wing. But you do get to Machine Countersink these skins.., What
ever weight reduction this is worth????? (Ha!)
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list%matronics.com(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com
| Subject: | Re: Weight of course |
> In case anyone is wondering the what kind of weight factor is invovled
> with the one piece .032 top wing skin. It works out to a little under 1.25
> pounds per wing. But you do get to Machine Countersink these skins.., What
> ever weight reduction this is worth????? (Ha!)
> Chris.
Wow! That's it? 1.25 pounds? The ease of assembly and beauty of the
single piece of skin is easially worth that little bit of weight. A
friend of mine that told me about the single skin calculated it; but it
was a long time ago. I thought for sure it was considerably more than
that - like 4 pounds. Hum, interesting.
In my opinion, the fact that you can countersink the whole thing is
worth it in and of itself. I happen to hate dimpling!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
Still approaching that day when I can start skinning the wing. I'll
be finishing up the aileron bellcrank soon and am wondering if it is
necesary to install the controll rods before riveting the wing shut.
I'm not concernd the puting the linkage in, but is there ample
clearance or do any of the ribs need to be filed to ensure enough room
for the rod arms. Reason being is I don't have room enough ti slip
in the long aielron push rod, unless I remove 90% of the rib and then
reinstall them. Should this be done or is it No Factor?
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
it's not necessary to install the pushrods before skinning. the only
thing is to remember to put them in before installing the wings! I and others
have found it necessary to file the uppper part of the innermost rib and
fuselage rib for clearance. your mileage may vary- it's easy to do in place, as
needed.
I don't understand yyour other question, about removing 90 % of the rib(s?)
this sounds wrong, perhaps you should elaborate. there should be no problem
installing the pushrods at all.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Inspection Panel |
Okay: So I have lot's of questions... Here's anotherone for ya. The
plans do not show the Aileron Belcrank Gusset W-619(419) with it's relation
to the .040" Reinforcing Ring of the Access Panel. Should I modify the bot-
tom W-619 mount onto the ring. Or make the panel smaller so the Gusset will
be aft of the Reinforcing Ring?
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
>I don't understand your other question, about removing 90 % of the rib(s?)
>this sounds wrong, perhaps you should elaborate. there should be no problem
>installing the pushrods at all.
Elaboration:
Sorry what I ment was in order to get the Push Rod in to the center of
the ribs I'd have to take most of them off of the main spare, slip them a-
round the Aileron Push Rod and then re-install them... Got it!
Anyway, never mind. Sounds like I don't have to worrie about it.
Thanks!
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)cyclone.mitre.org (J. C. Moody) |
| Subject: | inspection panel |
Chris,
I do remember a slight problem in locating the gusset relative to
the panel reinforcing plate. I beleive i placed the gusset aft of the
location depicted on the drawing. In fact i think you are forced to go pretty
far aft cause of a formed ridge on the rib to where the gusset attaches to rib.
Rivets attaching gusset then went thru skin,
reinforcing plate and gusset. Location of top gusset remained
unchanged. Mine is the -6 if it makes any difference.
His photo of this area i remeber as being very strange and of no
help. I ended up shimming the gussets prior to the final riveting
so as not to have a skin bulge or depression.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)cyclone.mitre.org (J. C. Moody) |
| Subject: | Re: inspection panel |
Hi chris
my name is chris moody and i work at MITRE corp in McLean Va.
as far as i remember i made my inspection panel per the dimensions in the
drawing. Also i did mount my gusset in assy with the reinforcing ring
as i mentioned in my last note. However it ends up very close to the
aft end of the gusset due to a forming depression in the rib that
restricts where the gusset can mate to the rib. The point is that
to move gusset aft at all requires you to move it aft about an inch
due to the formed depression in the rib. It still made contact with
the gusset but just barely.,
The other thing i noticed was that i did not have enough stock to
cut out the access plates. I think van intends you use what you removed
from the wing skin. I'm not that good with the shears so i had to get
a little more stock. Actually i used a cutoff wheel on a dremmel
to cut out for the access plate; that seems to do a much nicer job,but
pretty well insures you can't use the cutout piece as the access plate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
>
> What size wire did you use for your nav lights and Landing lights?
> Is there a special prefered wire by the FAA? Looking at other planes
> they seem to use 14 to 16 GA. wire but it's always white....
>
> Chirs..
>
I've got some 14 and 16. I ran 16 out to all of the lights (landing &
position). I think for any wiring within the fuselage, 18 would be
good. The aircraft wire is really gnarly stuff and not real bendable.
I don't think there are really too many applications for the 14 gage stuff.
*Maybe* for the flap motor, or something *really* high current.
Aircraft Spruce & Speciality has a excellent selection of aircraft grade
wire in a number of different colors. I got some white with red strip and
white with black strip.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
Re: Wire
When I rebuilt (and rewired) the ARSA Fighter (RV-4), I thought about using
aircraft wire, but it was quite expensive. What I did instead was to visit the
local surplus shop and buy all kinds of Teflon coated wire in various colors
and gauges. This let me color code my wire, since plain old aircraft wire needs
a special tool to write labels on each wire. I did need a hot wire stripper to
remove the insulation, though. I borrowed one, and after I was done, found one
in a surplus store.
You really have to do some research to find out what gauges of wire to use. It
is a factor of both current and length of wire. I think I found something in
one of Bingelis' books, but I'm not sure where I found it. I ran #10 wire out
to the landing light, for example, due to current and distance.
Ed Wischmeyer
wischmeyer1(at)applelink.apple.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven L Harris <steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)RELAY.CS.NET> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire Stuff... |
Here is chart for what size wire & the max distance.
5A 10A 15A 20A 40A
6 Ga 22
8 Ga 74 50 35 17
10Ga 85 45 30 22
12Ga 52 25 18 13
14Ga 33 16 11
16Ga 20 10
18Ga 15 7
Taken from a sample schematic from our local RV builders group newsletter.
Bill Benedict, a local builder, & P.E. (Electrical) did quite a bit of
research before wiring his RV-4 and gave us a good talk on electrical
systems at our last meeting.
Steve Harris
________________________________________________________________________________
To Bay area RV-6 builders: I sure could use a big favor. Let me fill
you in. I'm building my wings and just finished checking rib alignment be-
fore skining. Ooops! I've got on rib that I'm not too happy with. It's a
tank rib T-603L. This is the out most tank rib made of .032" no Modifica-
tion is needed on this one except flutes, and drilling the rivet patern on
the aft flange for mounting to the baffle.
I drilled the baffle already. The rib now hangs a little too low for me
and I want to replace it. There is nothing wrong with the rib, so maybe I
can find someone who wants to swap! If not I'll need to purchase another
rib for Van's.
Please send me E-mail:
CES00(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ibmchs!auschs!ace.austin.ibm.com!deene(at)cs.utexas.edu |
| Subject: | Add me to the mailing list. |
Please,
Thanks,
Deene Ogden.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvdz.cv.hp.com> |
| Subject: | RV builders list addition |
RV builders mailing list maintainer:
I am in the process of deciding which kit suits me best. I have just
discovered this RV mailing list and would like to be added to the
distribution. Also, could you tell me how to get back issues, my
internet connectivity is good. and I should be able to ftp from most
sites.
Thanks
Randy Stockberger
randys(at)cv.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Current rv-list Membership... |
Here's the current list of builders on the list. Getting quite large,
actually...
Ta ta...
Matt Dralle
-----------------
chris(at)cis.ohio-state.edu (RV-6A Chris Krieg)
aviator(at)sequent.uucp (RV-6 Jim Harriger)
rodney(at)math.ucla.edu (RV-6 Rodney Sinclair)
steveha%shogun.pen.tek.com(at)relay.cs.net (RV-4 Steve Harris)
wischmeyer1(at)applelink.apple.com (RV-4 Ed Wischmeyer)
dralle(at)matronics.com (RV-4 Matt Dralle)
martin(at)iastate.edu (RV-6A Martin R. Calsyn)
quejoh@auto-trol.com (RV-6 Quent Johnson)
pauls(at)hpnmdla.HP.COM (RV-4 Paul Stafford)
lll-crg.llnl.gov!mwvm.mitre.org!m15235 (RV-6 Chris Moody)
ibmchs!auschs!ace.austin.ibm.com!deene(at)cs.utexas.edu (RV-6 Deene Ogden)
lackerma(at)rpslmc.edu (RV-6 Laurens V.Ackerman)
uunet!hcx1!misg!seahcx!phred!dougm@lll-winken.llnl.gov (RV-6A Doug Medema)
wentzdon(at)ccm.hf.intel.com (RV-6 Don Wentz 503-696-7185)
gracely(at)yoda.nidr.nih.gov (RV-6 Rick Gracely 301-496-5238)
perrin(at)crc.skl.dnd.ca (RV-? John Perrin)
kak(at)sequent.com (RV-6 Keith A. Kelleman)
bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Venture Bret Marquis)
mag%mag386(at)CSE.OGI.EDU (RV-6 Michael Goldsmith)
bataller(at)tdw274.ed.ray.com (RV-6A Gary Bataller)
ces00(at)juts.ccc.amdahl.com (RV-6 Chris Schulte)
pilla(at)speedy.att.com (RV-4 Mike Pilla)
randys(at)cv.hp.com (RV-x Randy Stockberger)
------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 9th Annual Aviation Flea Market |
Bay Area builders might find this help full!
See you there!
Chris.
---
-------------( Forwarded letter follows )-----------------------
---
NUT TREE AIRPORT in Vacavile CA
999 TTTTT H H A
9 9 T H H AAA N N N N U U A L
9 9 T HHHHHH A A NN N NN N U U A A L
999 T H H AAAAAAA N N N N N N U U A A L
9 T H H A A N N N N N N U U AAAAAAA L
9 A A N NN N NN U U A A L
9 A A N N N N UU A A LLLLLL
AVIATION FLEA MARKET! Sponsered by:
The Solano County Sheriff's Air Squadron
Sunday September 8, 1991
8:00 am to 4:00 pm For more information contact:
(15:00z) (23:00z) Don Webb @ (707) 448-0995
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | John Perrin's Email Address... |
Hello everyone...
For a few months now, I have been getting mailer bounces from the
address:
perrin(at)crc.skl.dnd.ca (RV-? John Perrin)
If anyone knows John, or his phone number, please let me know. I have
his address in Canada, but no phone number - maybe they don't have
phones there - who knows....
Matt
Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Sir Matthew G Dralle 415-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Re: Additional RV info |
>
> Matt:
>
> I'm considering the RV-6A. I don't have that many hours as a pilot, and
> don't have any taildragger time. Also, tandem seating doesn't appeal to
> me, most of my flying is done with my wife, and we enjoy it much more
> when we can sit side by side.
>
> I haven't made any final decision yet, building an airplane will take a
> lot of time and dedication. It is quite possible that I would be one of
> the people who get it started, but don't finish.
>
> The RV-6 seems to have it all.
>
> Affordable, excellent performance, reasonable build time, proven track
> record, many finished planes which means many experienced builders, etc.
>
>
> Randy Stockberger
> Corvallis, OR 97330
>
Randy,
I've posted this message to rv-list(at)matronics.com. Please feel free to post
what ever you might want...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bam(at)trout.nosc.mil (Bret A. Marquis) |
| Subject: | Gathering at Van's |
Did anyone else attend Van's 'homecoming' at his home
last week? 77 RV's flew in to Sunset airpark near
Portland. I guess the biggest gathering of RV's to
date. Seeing all the various models lined up in long
rows down the length of his turf strip was a real treat.
Sunset Airpark is located within the Hillsboro Airport
ATA and the Hillsboro tower was kept quite busy just
handling RV traffic!
I really regret not bringing a camera since so many of the
planes were really spectacular with myriad paint schemes.
The gathering was not just west coast many folks flew in
from Florida and eastern Canada just for the picnic.
I can't report on the technical sessions, I just dropped
in for the Potluck dinner but I overheard someone say
that Van is shipping 7 kits a week now. Now that`s
really impressive!
Bret Marquis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | masys(at)nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys) |
| Subject: | Please add me to the mailing list |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Stafford <pauls(at)hpsrrjp.sr.hp.com> |
hi folks
for those of you who can't wait to finish your RVn, and have some extra cash,
there's one for sale- mine. It's new, it's cool, it's 180 hp. It's light-
only 945# with paint and big engine! It's got 82 TT, after a great shakedown
cruise to Fairbanks,AK in July.
Why, you ask?
Well, this trip was way cool. More fun than I've had doing anything else
in airplanes, including acro. Landing at small grass strips, flying over vast
wastelands of mountains and glaciers...struggling to fold a sectional while
keeping the greasy side down, trying to stuff all the camping gear for two into
a small baggage compartment- in short, my needs have changed. I DID love the
short takeoff/landing, the 155kt cruise at 8gph, the visibility, the ability
to make tight turns about a moose, the attention I got at every airport I
stopped at (front page news in the Mackenzie, BC Times- I've got a copy of the
paper to prove it!).
I wish I was rich enough to own two airplanes, because I sure would love to
keep it, but at this point, a C180/185 is in my future.
Anyway, if you are interested, or know anyone interested, give me a ring
at (707) 528-9045 ( home,message machine) or at work, (707) 577-4935.
Paul Stafford, email pauls(at)sr.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | van's homecoming fly-in? |
| From: | aviator(at)sequent.com |
bret,
and other rv folks: i went over to sunset for about
2 hours on saturday afternoon. there were about 30 planes
there, at that time. lots of neat stuff, and lots of good
ideas for later. i had a camera, i'll let yo know if
any of the pictures turned out.
jim harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | unfound rivets in wing kit?? |
| From: | aviator(at)sequent.com |
rv folks,
ron and i have just gotten started on our wings, and
in the process of building the fuselage bulkhead, we ran into
the following problem:
while riveting the outside panels to the fuselage
bulkhead that holds the wing spars, we noticed that we didn't
have any of the specified rivets. specifically, they are
an426ad3-5 rivets. has anyone else run into this? i looked
on the wing kit pick list and they aren't listed!?! are they
included in the fuselage kit, and they got overlooked because
of this?
we are building the wing rear spars now, except that
in the move to our new shop, we can't find the aileron hinge
mount point re-inforcements (w607e and f). we have it checked
off on the inventory list, but we can't find it. AAARRRRGH!
jim harriger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amail.amdahl.com!christopher.schulte(at)pacbell.com |
| Subject: | Wire Lable Maker: |
I've been spending some time under the dash of an Arrow and have noticed
that all there wires are labled with a three character alpanumeric code. I'm
wondering if anyone can lead me in the right direction as to wear I could find
a wire lableing machine like the one used to lable their wires. I've never
seen one but obviously they are out there.
Chris.
RV-6
San Jose CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvdz.cv.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wire label maker |
I tried to send this direct to 'christopher.schulte(at)pacbell.com' but my
mailer isn't very smart. Perhaps other people are also interested.
Chris:
I helped rebuild a Freightliner truck tractor and we used labels like
you describe. We bought sheets of pre-printed label pairs which we
peeled off and wrapped around the wires in the harness. We got them
from the local auto parts / speed shop. Custom car builders often
install the electrical system from scratch. I've also seen them at
electronics parts stores.
Call around, I think 15 minutes on the phone will make you happy.
Luck
Randy Stockberger
randys(at)cv.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bret Marquis <75320.126(at)CompuServe.COM> |
I saw the following note on Compuserve. Thought it might be of interest to
the list..
Bret
bam(at)trout.nosc.mil
----------------
#: 191238 S9/Sport/Recreation
22-Sep-91 11:47:22
Sb: #190425-RV-6A
Fm: Chuck Myers/IA 70303,2402
There is an RV-6A on the front of the July Sport Aviation Magazine from
the EAA. It is Allan Tolle's plane, he and his wife built it in 6 months. Of
April 27, 1990 - October 25, 1991
RV-Archive.digest.vol-aa