RV-Archive.digest.vol-ae
June 03, 1994 - August 15, 1994
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Fuel tanks, pro-seal, etc. |
Regarding pro-seal in the fuel-tanks: In the plans, where it shows
how to build the rib with a flop tube, it shows the notches at the aft
bottom corner of the #2 rib being left open. Does anyone know if this is
supposed to be specifically for tanks with a flop tube, and specifically
in the #2 rib only? It seems to me it'd be a good idea either way since it
would probably ensure a path through the lowest part of the tank,
thus maximizing useable fuel, but it seems like it would be difficult
to do this and still get plenty of pro-seal around the adjacent flanges.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: A few questions... |
>Is this kind of what you are describing, or am I missing something?
>Do you put any spacer between the bars at the yoke end to keep the
>bars square, or is the angle of no consequence?
>
> /-------\
> / \
> / ---- \
> / / \ \
> | | | |
> |--| | |
> /------------------------------| | |
> / bar | |yoke |
>|--------------------------------| | |
> | (rivet) screw | |
> / \ screw | |
>|--------------------------------| | |
> \ bar | | |
> \------------------------------| | |
> |--| | |
> | | | |
> \ \ / /
> \ ---- /
> \ /
> ----------
>
>(Sorry for the crude ascii picture.)
>Thanks again for the help.
>Tom Goeddel
>t.goeddel(at)att.com
That's it, and yes, put about a #10 screw between the beaks inside the yoke
to make them squeeze exactly flat against the rivet.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: A few questions... |
** stuff deleted **
>2. Any tricks to riveting flush rivets in an area where a squeezer won't fit
>or reach, and a normal flush rivet set won't fit either?
** stuff deleted **
I use a special yoke in my pnuematic squeezer that does not need a
rivet set in the stationary part. You squeeze the rivet directly against
the top of the C-yoke (there's no 3/16 inch hole in the yoke of course!).
The top is also drastically tapered to get into those small places (the
narrow end of the aileron ribs .. etc.). I think I end up using this
C-yoke more than the standard one (the one using two rivet sets) that
usually comes with the pnuematic squeezer.
I got mine from Sid Goldin in Visalia, CA (see details in an
earlier posting), but I've seen them advertised elsewhere.
happy squeezing ... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Westach Instruments (was: Fuel Sender - gauge compatibility) |
** stuff deleted **
>Great write-up Gil! I've been wondering whether to exchange my "standard"
>fuel gauges for a dual Westach - this kind of info is what a person needs
>to help decide.
>
>One thing you said caught my eye -- you said that "Internal lighting is
>available cheaply. I guess that means it's not standard with the Westach?
>How does the option work then, and just what does it cost? I know we're not
>talking much $$ here, just wondering, since the ones from Vans come with
>lights already built in.
>
>One bit of info I'll add is that when I flew recently with a friend in his
>RV-6 I noticed he had a Westach dual fuel gauge, and when I asked him about
>it he told me it was the 3rd one he got - the first two were bad right out of
>the box. He seemed to think Westach stuff in general wasn't too high quality.
>Of course that's just one opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6 building the fuel tanks -- sheesh!
Randall,
I have not bought the internal lighting yet, but it appears to be a
bulb assembly that is inserted through a hole in the rear of the
instrument. The gauge has a removeable plug for this assembly. The price
is listed in the Aircraft Spruce catalog ... same bulb assembly fits all of
their 2 1/4 inch instruments.
I don't know about quality problems, and have heard some of the
same stuff you have. However, if you look in Sport Aviation at the panels
of the award winning planes, you can see a lot of them use Westach
instruments, even in the dual and quad arrangements, which I would suspect
to have a lower reliability due to more moving parts.
QUESTION TO THE RV-LIST
Does anyone have more factual data (good or bad) on the
reliability of Westach instruments?? .... if so, please post.
thanks ..... Gil Alexander RV6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Russelville RV gathering |
Is anyone on this list besides me going to the Russelville, AL
RV gathering listed in RVator besides me? (Anyone on the list
in the Southeast beside me?)
This will be my first chance to see an RV in person, and I'm told
that chances are I'll get a ride in one. Even though this will
not be as big an event as those you have on the left coast, I'm
really looking forward to it. (and my trip to Van's later this
month.)
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Rivets too short/Progress Report |
Having just finished skinning one side of my vertical stabilizer I am
wondering if I should have used longer rivets. The plans call for #3-3.5s,
which are supplied in abundance. However, I chose to dimple my skin, as
the book recommends, only to find that a 3.5 rivet was now just a hair too
short, according to my rivet gauge. So, I used 'em anyway, but many of my
shopheads are marginal in terms of finished height. I decided to use some
of my limited supply of 3-4s to do the edge rivets, and these came out
beautifully ( The squeezer is a joy to use on the #3 rivets, unlike the #4s).
The rear spar/skin fastening rivets were countersunk and these worked out
fine. I wonder why the book recommends dimpleing, then recommends and
supplies rivets which seem to be inappropriate? Anyway, I have a friend
coming over to help tonight, so I'll probably replace most of the 3.5s,
just for peace of mind. Anyone else have any comments on selecting rivet
lengths? I think from now on I will not use any rivet that is shorter that
the rivet gauge minimum, regardless of what the plans say.
But the good news is that otherwise the vertical stabilizer is complete,
almost. I am supposed to leave one side of the skin unriveted until the
airworthiness inspector can inspect it. Anyway, it is pretty neat to take
it out of the jig and just look at it, lift it up, show the neighbors,
etc. A genuine chunk of airplane! I'm really starting to enjoy the
building process even more than I thought I would. This metalworking is
fun!
You know, every night I fall asleep not by counting sheep, but by
imagining myself in the cockpit making that first glorious flight!
Curt Reimer
One Happy RV Building Dude
RV6 #23490
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
Well I met and chatted with "Bill" from Vans at Merced this last weekend.
Later in the day I got my first ride in a -6T, also my first -6 ride.
I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY (get the picture)
sold and glad I decided to buy and build a RV-6... This airplane is both
fun and responsive!!!! I was, er still, on a high from that flight. At
Merced there where rows of -4's, -6's, etc... A few other common homebuilts
but mostly RV-*....
For all of us still building and wondering, KEEP BUILDING!! YOU WILL LOVE IT
~~~~~~~~
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
DOes anyone have some advise on which "tool kits" are good/bad, etc?
Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the
wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone
built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc??
One last question..
What abut the "flo-gision" (I can't remember how it was spelled) pre-fab
spars????
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> What abut the "flo-gision" (I can't remember how it was spelled) pre-fab
> spars????
> -------sig cut here-------
> jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
> Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee"
I built my spar and didn't find it to be difficult, just time
consuming. Most people I've talked to who bought Phlogiston spars seemed
to be satisfied with their quality, so it's probably a matter of economics
vs time. I spent about 60 hrs on them, I think that's slightly above
average. One tip: if you do your own spars and choose to taper the flange
strips, check with me or Mike Wilson (James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.hf.intel.com)
regarding the table saw blade he found that works quite well for that. Also
get Frank Justice's instructions (frank(at)SSD.intel.com) -- they're a big help
there.
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (for now)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Don't buy ATS.
I bought a Phlogiston spar. It's nice enough, but many of the gang in the
Portland RVators have done their own during the last year, and found it to
be very do-able. I would seriously consider putting that $800 towards a
$1500 'fast build kit' for the wings, from Steve Bernard (Van's sells
these). If you're looking to save time and head scratching, that may be
money well spent.
dw
DOes anyone have some advise on which "tool kits" are good/bad, etc?
Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the
wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone
built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc??
One last question..
What abut the "flo-gision" (I can't remember how it was spelled) pre-fab
spars????
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rivets too short/Progress Report |
Curt, glad to hear you are enjoying your project, that first 'real
airplane part' IS fun. As to drilling-out the rivets, something to
consider: the holes will now be 'stretched' from the first rivets, you
may damage some holes during the removal process, etc. If they are pretty
close, I would think hard before drilling-them out. Also, lest we forget,
ultimate responsibility for rivet length belongs to the riveter, not 'the
plans', right?
I would consider ordering 'some qty' of -4s next time you order something
from Van's. Their quantities are fine for a 'std' RV, but if you are like
the rest of us dummies and get carried away with things that use more nut
plates, etc., you will run-out (I did).
Keep up the good work
dw
Having just finished skinning one side of my vertical stabilizer I am
wondering if I should have used longer rivets. The plans call for #3-3.5s,
which are supplied in abundance. However, I chose to dimple my skin, as
the book recommends, only to find that a 3.5 rivet was now just a hair too
short, according to my rivet gauge. So, I used 'em anyway, but many of my
shopheads are marginal in terms of finished height. I decided to use some
of my limited supply of 3-4s to do the edge rivets, and these came out
beautifully ( The squeezer is a joy to use on the #3 rivets, unlike the #4s).
The rear spar/skin fastening rivets were countersunk and these worked out
fine. I wonder why the book recommends dimpleing, then recommends and
supplies rivets which seem to be inappropriate? Anyway, I have a friend
coming over to help tonight, so I'll probably replace most of the 3.5s,
just for peace of mind. Anyone else have any comments on selecting rivet
lengths? I think from now on I will not use any rivet that is shorter that
the rivet gauge minimum, regardless of what the plans say.
But the good news is that otherwise the vertical stabilizer is complete,
almost. I am supposed to leave one side of the skin unriveted until the
airworthiness inspector can inspect it. Anyway, it is pretty neat to take
it out of the jig and just look at it, lift it up, show the neighbors,
etc. A genuine chunk of airplane! I'm really starting to enjoy the
building process even more than I thought I would. This metalworking is
fun!
You know, every night I fall asleep not by counting sheep, but by
imagining myself in the cockpit making that first glorious flight!
Curt Reimer
One Happy RV Building Dude
RV6 #23490
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
>Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the
>wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone
>built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc??
I built a free-standing empenage jig and it worked just fine. 4x4 uprights
and crossbar, tall enough to put a 2x4 across the top to hang plumb lines from,
and 2x4 braces. The feet for the uprights were 3-foot long 2x4's, and I put
machine bolts in them for feet; turning these bolts in and out allowed me to
level in on an uneven floor. This rig was plenty stable when riveting. No need
to glue it in place. I didn't use it for my wings; not sure how well it would
hold up.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
When I started working on my RV-3, I did tons of practice stuff.
I got a bunch of old aluminum from a friend who is a mechanic and then
bought some in each of the different thicknesses. I also bought a bunch
of extra rivets. Eventually, I got to the point where I dared to start
on a real piece. Now that I have been working on this for a couple of
years I still practice something if I have not done it for a while.
Last week I practiced machine countersinking before working on my
F303 fuselage bulkhead. When doing this, I always use the same thickness
and type of material. This way it helps to pump up my self confidence
and I get the tools adjusted.
Now here is a question. I did some back riveting of some
an426ad4-5 flush rivets this past weekend. Some of them did not seem
to form the shop head evenly in all directions from the center of the
rivet. I would like to figure out why before I rivet the bulkhead
pieces together. Any ideas? Thanks.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>Don't buy ATS.
I have found them OK for drill bits -- they have all sizes and
lengths in stock and are the correct split point type for aluminum. Stay
away from their other stuff though.
>
>I bought a Phlogiston spar. It's nice enough, but many of the gang in the
>Portland RVators have done their own during the last year, and found it to
>be very do-able. I would seriously consider putting that $800 towards a
>$1500 'fast build kit' for the wings, from Steve Bernard (Van's sells
>these). If you're looking to save time and head scratching, that may be
>money well spent.
>dw
I just saw what Steve Barnard sells at the RV BBQ in Bakersfield
this last weekend. His parts are VERY well made, all Computer cut and
drilled, and gold anodized -- no priming needed!! Some of the smaller
assemblies, such as the bellcrank are riveted together and completely
finished. He used to be a professional sheet metal worker for McDonald
Douglas (sp?) in Long Beach.
His pre-drilling of the rear spar reinforcement plates and the
aileron attach fittings removes ALL fitting problems on getting the
ailerons correctly aligned with the wing. this alone removes a lot of
worry, fitting, lying on your back trail fitting ailerons, trepidation,
etc.... I wish his kit was available when I did my wings.
Price is $1495 from either Vans or Steve directly (he lives in
Cameron Park, CA in the 916 area code).
I tapered my spars with a $150 Delta bandsaw with a wood blade, and
cleaned up the cut with a large "vixen" file (from Avery). This was quite
easy. Since the cutting is a one shot deal, you could probably just borrow
time on someone elses band saw.
I also spent at least 60 hours on the spars, and it cost $1000 for
a new engine, when my son's pickup engine blew up in the mountains taking
the spar to Bakersfield to be riveted by John Harman.
>
** stuff deleted **
>-------sig cut here-------
>jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
>Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address
| Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com
Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil
Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840
PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404
Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Rivets too short/Progress Report |
Curt,
If you are dimpling with the Avery tool, I have found that a #41
drill is the best to use. It seems that the #40 holes get a little too
large after dimpling, and the rivet has to expand more to fill the hole,
giving it a slightly shoerter head.
....... Gil Alexander ... RV6A
>Curt, glad to hear you are enjoying your project, that first 'real
>airplane part' IS fun. As to drilling-out the rivets, something to
>consider: the holes will now be 'stretched' from the first rivets, you
>may damage some holes during the removal process, etc. If they are pretty
>close, I would think hard before drilling-them out. Also, lest we forget,
>ultimate responsibility for rivet length belongs to the riveter, not 'the
>plans', right?
>
>I would consider ordering 'some qty' of -4s next time you order something
>from Van's. Their quantities are fine for a 'std' RV, but if you are like
>the rest of us dummies and get carried away with things that use more nut
>plates, etc., you will run-out (I did).
>
>Keep up the good work
>dw
>
>
>Having just finished skinning one side of my vertical stabilizer I am
>wondering if I should have used longer rivets. The plans call for #3-3.5s,
>which are supplied in abundance. However, I chose to dimple my skin, as
>the book recommends, only to find that a 3.5 rivet was now just a hair too
>short, according to my rivet gauge. So, I used 'em anyway, but many of my
>shopheads are marginal in terms of finished height. I decided to use some
>of my limited supply of 3-4s to do the edge rivets, and these came out
>beautifully ( The squeezer is a joy to use on the #3 rivets, unlike the #4s).
>
>The rear spar/skin fastening rivets were countersunk and these worked out
>fine. I wonder why the book recommends dimpleing, then recommends and
>supplies rivets which seem to be inappropriate? Anyway, I have a friend
>coming over to help tonight, so I'll probably replace most of the 3.5s,
>just for peace of mind. Anyone else have any comments on selecting rivet
>lengths? I think from now on I will not use any rivet that is shorter that
>the rivet gauge minimum, regardless of what the plans say.
>
>But the good news is that otherwise the vertical stabilizer is complete,
>almost. I am supposed to leave one side of the skin unriveted until the
>airworthiness inspector can inspect it. Anyway, it is pretty neat to take
>it out of the jig and just look at it, lift it up, show the neighbors,
>etc. A genuine chunk of airplane! I'm really starting to enjoy the
>building process even more than I thought I would. This metalworking is
>fun!
>
>You know, every night I fall asleep not by counting sheep, but by
>imagining myself in the cockpit making that first glorious flight!
>
>Curt Reimer
>One Happy RV Building Dude
>RV6 #23490
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone #? |
I ordered a heated pitot tube from Aircraft Spruce about 3 weeks ago. At
that time they said they were back ordered 3 weeks.
I called them today to ask for status and they said "we had some in but
they already went out. Next shipment should be in around July 2." $#*&$^%*&!
I'm not too happy. I'm all ready to rivet my left leading edge skin and
want to put that in first. Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone number handy?
Or any other suggestions for where to get a heated pitot tube? If any
PDX locals know of a local source for one let me know.
Randall
RV-6/6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Tools, etc. |
If you are going to go to the RV fly-in at Scapoose Airport this
Saturday Bill Benedict is going to bring out one of the fast-build wing
kits for us to look at.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone #? |
>
>
> I ordered a heated pitot tube from Aircraft Spruce about 3 weeks ago. At
> that time they said they were back ordered 3 weeks.
> I called them today to ask for status and they said "we had some in but
> they already went out. Next shipment should be in around July 2." $#*&$^%*&!
>
> I'm not too happy. I'm all ready to rivet my left leading edge skin and
> want to put that in first. Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone number handy?
> Or any other suggestions for where to get a heated pitot tube? If any
> PDX locals know of a local source for one let me know.
>
> Randall
> RV-6/6A
>
I've got the heated pitot on my RV6A. You don't actually need the tube
until you've painted the wings. However, you do need a mounting bracket
(mast) of some sort when assembling the wing (surprise; it doesn't come with
the tube!). I got my mount from White Industries for about $25.
Gary Bataller
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Rivets too short/Progress Report |
Thanks for the reply. I have already purchased some #41s and I plan to use
them on dimpled holes from now on. In fact, #42s would be even better if
only the dimple die would fit through!
Cheers,
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Tools, etc. (fwd) |
> From netcom.netcom.com!jmbrown(at)matronics.com Mon Jun 6 14:18:31 1994
>
> DOes anyone have some advise on which "tool kits" are good/bad, etc?
> Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the
> wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone
> built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc??
My Jig is free standing. It is pretty much like the plans, except that
I put an extra 4x4 along the top, and used 3/4 inch plywood gussets
and webs to stiffen things up. I cut legs out of 3/4 inch plywood that
look something like the attempted sketch below. I used 3/8 inch round
head bolts, nuts and large washers for legs so I could level the
thing. They are inserted into a 2x4 stiffener fastened laterally along
the plywood leg. I installed a wire along the top, just below the
upper 4x4 to hang a plumb bob from. The width of the legs are 28
inches -- OK, but if I were to do it again, I'd make them a bit wider,
say, 32 inches. The whiole thing is screwed together with dry wall screws.
| |
| |
| |
| |
- | |-
- | | -
- | | -
/ \
/ \
/ _______________________ \
/___ / \___ \
I have built the HS in the jig, and just mounted the VS skeleton in it
for skinning. I check the alignment periodically with the plumb bob,
and a level. It is certainly not as stable as a built-in jig, but it
is conveninent to move it out of the way when it is not in use.
> jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
> Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John M. Brown" <jmbrown(at)straw.berry.com> |
Subject: | Jig ideas, etc.... |
What did you use for the wing?? I like the idea of one jig for everything..
What I am thinking about building would look like the following:
|
|
/|\
/ | \ from the side.....
| |
| |
|------------|
| |
| |
Like in VAN's destruction guide. Any thoughts ideas?
jmbrown(at)netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mag(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Rivets too short/Progress Report |
>Thanks for the reply. I have already purchased some #41s and I plan to use
>them on dimpled holes from now on. In fact, #42s would be even better if
>only the dimple die would fit through!
>
If you squeeze hard enough, it will :-)
>Cheers,
>Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Bellcrank bearings |
Does anybody have a source for the original aileron belcrank bearings. The
ones sent with my kit look like a cheep knock-off.
____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) Gotta love it! cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Jig ideas, etc.... |
What did you use for the wing?? I like the idea of one jig for everything..
What I am thinking about building would look like the following:
|
|
/|\
/ | \ from the side.....
| |
| |
|------------|
| |
| |
Like in VAN's destruction guide. Any thoughts ideas?
jmbrown(at)netcom.com
The wing is very heavy when complete, so the structure required for it is
somewhat different from that required for the empenage. The structure described
below should work, but two poles with crossarms are a lot simpler. Build the two
sides as shown, with the upper crossarm about 4 feet off the floor. You don't
need any bars between them for building purposes, but you must have them top and
bottom to hold the structure square. All of that stuff will get in your way as
you are trying to build. The more I think about it the better it sounds to just
put up two poles no matter how high the ceiling.
|
|
|_____
|\ /
| \
|/ \
/| \
/ | \
/ | \
/___|______\
Side View
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Boeing surplus store |
I'M SORRY IF YOU'VE RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE TWICE. I HAD REASON
TO BELIEVE THAT THE FIRST ONE DIDN'T MAKE IT.
Reading through the rv-list archives, the Boeing surplus store
was mentioned several times. People have mentioned $0.50
cleco pliers and $40 rivet guns - sound like an RV builder's
paradise. I will be in Seattle from the 19th through 27th for
a conference (actually plan to spend 24-26th in Portland) and
would like to stock up on tools. So, some questions for those
in the NW:
Is this store open to the public?
What are their hours?
What can I typically find there? Are there some items that are
almost always found, and others that are more transient?
Has anybody been there very recently?
Also, the conference that I'm attending (IEEE Antenna and Propagation
Society/URSI) had a tour of the Boeing 747/767 plant in Everett,
which I thought would be one of the high points of the trip.
However, they cleverly scheduled my presentation at the same time
as the tour. Alas, I can't go. I was wondering if anyone knew
if Boeing has regular tours of their facilities open to the
general public so I could go another day.
Thanks,
John Henderson
johnh @ eng.auburn.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Subject: | Bellcrank bearings (fwd) |
> From cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com Wed Jun 8 11:54:00 1994
> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 07:56:19 -0700
> From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id: <199406081456.HAA28241(at)large.cisco.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Bellcrank bearings
>
> Does anybody have a source for the original aileron belcrank bearings. The
ones sent with my kit look like a cheep knock-off.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> |
|
> | ( )
|
> | ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble
|
> | /\ )( ) Gotta love it! cruble(at)cisco.com
|
> | / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180
|
> | / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W
|
> |/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC
|
> |________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________|
>
>
>
Howdy,
Think these are bad should of seen the ones in 91. I bought real
Fanfair (sp) 1/4" bearing from Spruce, but I think Wicks also has
them at a lower price. You need 4, the elevator, the 2 ailerons, and
the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage.
Doug B
RV-6A
Cost around $10-$15 ea.
But boy are they smooth!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
I certainly can't say that ALL of my shop heads are perfect. ...at least
with a straight face.
There are many reasons why some are better than others. One of the reasons
for the ugly ones of mine is due to the the amount of energy transfered
from the rivet gun to the riveting job. If the air pressure is too high
the head spreads evenly but, of course, it may be smashed beyond
recognition. But if the pressure is too light the shophead can be knocked
over before it is set. Further pounding will make it look a little better,
but it is a bad rivet job and I get more practice at drilling it out.
There was a very good article in Sport Aviation a few months back by Tony
Bingelis (Spelling?) that touched on this very point.
There can be many other factors such as rivet length, how straight I hold
the Bucking Bar, or how straight the holes line-up etc...
The best thing I have found is to practice a little bit before I start a
big riveting job. I adjust air pressure, try various rivet sets and bucking
bars, and just try to get back into the "feel" of riveting for each
session.
Best of Luck!
bobn(at)ims.com #20110
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | My latest foul-up... |
Well, just when my empannage was coming along real well, I made a stupid
mistake. While drilling my HS405 ribs to the HS rear spar, I neglected to
drill my holes through the center of the HS409 flanges, and instead just
drilled 3 holes where it "looked good", according to the "typical rib hole
location" detail drawing. I should have drilled only 2 holes, centered in
the flanges, but of course, the spar was flange side down in the jig, and
the location of the flanges didn't occur to me until I was drilling and
noticed "Hey! this metal is pretty thick here." At that point my pilot
holes had been drilled in both HS405s, so I figured, well I've already
started doing them this way, might as well finish the job. So, my holes
are about 1/4" off center but still at least 1/4" from the edge of the
flange. I'll call Van and see what he says. My own calculations tell me
that I've reduced the tensile strength of the spar flange only by 2 % or
so, so I am hoping that the worst case would be to reinforce the area with
additional metal somehow. I guess new rear spar material is probably worth
only $100 or so but I really don't want to round off those 409s again!
The darn spar was almost perfect too. Oh well. Am I the only guy who does
stupid things like this or what? Although I have been extremely careful
with measurements, etc., I just got on a roll and started drilling holes
when suddenly my brain apparently shut down :). That seems to be one of
the pitfalls of building; once I start doing something repetitive like
drilling, dimpleing etc. it becomes like hammering nails and my mind tends
to wander. But building is so much fun I should be happy to build two of
everything, right?
I guess now I realize why people talk about building a second empannage at
the end of their project.
_______________________________________________________________________
|o| |o| <- where I drilled
o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o
HS409 | | | |
_____________________|_|_________________|_|___________________________
|o| | |o|
_____________________|_|________|________|_|____________________________
| | | |
o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o
HS409 |o| |o|
_____________________|_|_________________|_|____________________________
Curt Reimer
Depressed, but recovering, RV-6 builder.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Boeing surplus store |
Another question about the surplus store that I forgot
to ask:
Where is it? How do I get there?
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Bob Lyon, DECwest Engineering" <lyon(at)decwet.enet.dec.com> |
Subject: | RE: Boeing surplus store |
>Reading through the rv-list archives, the Boeing surplus store
>was mentioned several times. People have mentioned $0.50
>cleco pliers and $40 rivet guns - sound like an RV builder's
>paradise. I will be in Seattle from the 19th through 27th for
>a conference (actually plan to spend 24-26th in Portland) and
>would like to stock up on tools. So, some questions for those
>in the NW:
>Is this store open to the public?
Yes
>What are their hours?
The address is:
Boeing Surplus Sales
20651 84th Avenue S
Kent, Wa
Hours:
Tues-Fri 11am-6pm & Sat 9am-4pm
Directions from Seattle:
Take I-5 south to I-405 north (acutally heads east for several miles), then
I-405 north to SR 167 south. Take SR 167 south to the 208th street exit and
turn right (west) on to S 208th. Follow S 208th street west a couple blocks
until you get to 84th Avenue S - turn right (north). Follow 84th Avenue S
north to the next light (S 206th). Boeing Surplus is on the northwest
corner of the intersection and is clearly marked.
>What can I typically find there? Are there some items that are
>almost always found, and others that are more transient?
>Has anybody been there very recently?
Not to be too general, but it is possible to find just about anything remotely
related to aircraft manufacture in the last 50 years - materials, parts, tools,
etc. There is alot of good stuff but there is also alot of junk - buyer
beware! The pickings do tend to turnover, so bring your checkbook and if you
see something you like, buy it - it may not be there tomorrow. Worth the drive.
>Also, the conference that I'm attending (IEEE Antenna and Propagation
>Society/URSI) had a tour of the Boeing 747/767 plant in Everett,
>which I thought would be one of the high points of the trip.
>However, they cleverly scheduled my presentation at the same time
>as the tour. Alas, I can't go. I was wondering if anyone knew
>if Boeing has regular tours of their facilities open to the
>general public so I could go another day.
Boeing has a fairly continuous stream of tours going this time of year. You
can probably get in one just by showing up. Call one of the following for
more information:
Everett tour information:
(206) 342-4801
(206) 544-1264
Another nice attraction for avaition enthusiasts is the Museum of Flight at
Boeing Field:
Museum of Flight
9404 East Marginal Way South
Seattle, WA
(206) 764-5720
The museum has a fairly extensive collection including a DC-3, B-29, B-47, A-7,
A-12, and an Apollo capsule. The Boeing 707 prototype model 367-80 known as
the "Dash-80" is nearby as well. Worth taking in if you have the time.
Hope this helps,
Bob Lyon
lyon(at)zso.dec.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Shop Head |
I have found the best results with bucking bar technique & practice.
1) keep the gun pressure low (40 to 50) and be sure Gun stays firm against rivet
and surface.
2) apply light pressure with bucking bar as gun is slowly started and
accelerated
3) you will feel the rivet set as the gun accelerates. By rivet set, I mean it
is no longer loose in the hole (not finished to a shop head)
My terminology may be incorrect.
4) once the rivet is set and as the gun accelerates, use the bucking bar to
press the shop head on the rivet. At the bucking bar, it almost feels as though
the rivet is made of clay as it forms the shop head.
What I feel is happening is, once the rivet sets in the hole it will no longer
bounce out of the hole toward the gun so it is safe, at that time, to apply
bucking bar pressure.
Once you get the feel of the bucking bar, all your rivets will be great.
I keep my 12 year old son on the gun and I buck. I feel the technique is in the
bar.
Hope this helps, let me know how it works for you.
Mike Wilson, St Helens, OR
RV-4
- emp done
- wings in the jig, ready to skin
I certainly can't say that ALL of my shop heads are perfect. ...at least
with a straight face.
There are many reasons why some are better than others. One of the reasons
for the ugly ones of mine is due to the the amount of energy transfered
from the rivet gun to the riveting job. If the air pressure is too high
the head spreads evenly but, of course, it may be smashed beyond
recognition. But if the pressure is too light the shophead can be knocked
over before it is set. Further pounding will make it look a little better,
but it is a bad rivet job and I get more practice at drilling it out.
There was a very good article in Sport Aviation a few months back by Tony
Bingelis (Spelling?) that touched on this very point.
There can be many other factors such as rivet length, how straight I hold
the Bucking Bar, or how straight the holes line-up etc...
The best thing I have found is to practice a little bit before I start a
big riveting job. I adjust air pressure, try various rivet sets and bucking
bars, and just try to get back into the "feel" of riveting for each
session.
Best of Luck!
bobn(at)ims.com #20110
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Subject: | Re: Boeing surplus store |
>
>
> Another question about the surplus store that I forgot
> to ask:
> Content-Length: 48
>
> Where is it? How do I get there?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
Howdy,
I would like to know this too, I will be in the Seattle area
a week before John, I will try to leave you something John.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Rivet lengths |
One other thing that can make your shop heads bend over in addition to
what bobn just wrote: Make sure the material you are riveting on is
supported solidly. If the force of the hammer tends to make it tilt or
shift sideways, the rivet will bend over for no apparent reason.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ERNST(at)UIPHYA.PHYSICS.UIUC.EDU |
I would like to begin construction of my -6A as soon as I move to my new job
in August. Unfortunately, my new home is another apartment, with
correspondingly lousy shop space. Looking through the plans and manual,
though, it looks as though there is a good deal that I can get done on the
tail kit without setting up an air compressor immediately (air tools being
the loudest and least appropriate for an apartment shop). It looks as though
there's quite a bit of drilling, cutting, filing, rivet squeezing, etc. that
I can get done in my apartment. My questions, then, are: how good an idea is
it to build tail sub-assemblies, possibly out of order, leaving the pieces
formed but unprimed (no compressor spray gun yet) until I set up a real shop
in about a year? Is it practical to use primer from an aerosol can for some
tail parts that first year? Also, if I order a bunch of tools now (Avery's
kit), how good an idea is it to leave the air tools unused for that first year
(assuming that I can oil them occasionally)?
In the mean time, I'll look for more appropriate (rented) shop space when I
move in a couple months, maybe go in on a corner of a hangar or whatever.
Does anyone have ideas about finding shop space?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
Subject: | Some of my mistakes |
Here are some of the bigger mistakes I have made on my -3
Bad trimming of the vertical stabilizer skin. I was in a hurry
as we were about to move and it was time to pack up. I was forced to
buy a new skin. The worst part is now I have to re-mount the jig in
order to fit the new skin.
Mis-drilling one of the spar strips. On the -3 you have to do
all the drilling for the spar and bulkhead. I drilled a hole in the
wrong place on one of the longest ones and had to order a new one.
I got it from Wicks as they are 2000 miles closer.
Mis-laying out of the rivet pattern for the F-303 bulkhead.
This is the bulkhead made along with the main spar. When laying out
the locations for the rivets to hold the vertical pieces to the front
and back pieces, I mis-calculated where the bolts through the spar go.
I had to order six new pieces. The new one is almost done.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: My latest foul-up... |
Curt, Check with Van's. It doesn't look like an issue to me. As long as
you meet minimums and the rivets (and shop heads) clear everything (i.e.
edge flanges, brackets, etc.) It's the skin that provides structural
strength.
I know how you feel, I built two horiz stabs and my first one was perfect
too. This project will really humble you. It's still great and it just
gets better. I found that I go through periods of: enthusiasm,
depression, accomplishment, mundane relentless boring repetitive exercises
(wing ribs), apprehension, financial justification ... you could go on
forever. Lets face it, a 4-yr project that requires a quality level your
life literally depends on is a dam emotional undertaking. I just try to
keep the final outcome before me. Keeps me going in spite of how small the
intermediate accomplishments seem.
Sounds like your doing great!
Good Luck,
Mike Wilson, St Helens, OR
RV-4
emp done, wings ready for skin
Well, just when my empannage was coming along real well, I made a stupid
mistake. While drilling my HS405 ribs to the HS rear spar, I neglected to
drill my holes through the center of the HS409 flanges, and instead just
drilled 3 holes where it "looked good", according to the "typical rib hole
location" detail drawing. I should have drilled only 2 holes, centered in
the flanges, but of course, the spar was flange side down in the jig, and
the location of the flanges didn't occur to me until I was drilling and
noticed "Hey! this metal is pretty thick here." At that point my pilot
holes had been drilled in both HS405s, so I figured, well I've already
started doing them this way, might as well finish the job. So, my holes
are about 1/4" off center but still at least 1/4" from the edge of the
flange. I'll call Van and see what he says. My own calculations tell me
that I've reduced the tensile strength of the spar flange only by 2 % or
so, so I am hoping that the worst case would be to reinforce the area with
additional metal somehow. I guess new rear spar material is probably worth
only $100 or so but I really don't want to round off those 409s again!
The darn spar was almost perfect too. Oh well. Am I the only guy who does
stupid things like this or what? Although I have been extremely careful
with measurements, etc., I just got on a roll and started drilling holes
when suddenly my brain apparently shut down :). That seems to be one of
the pitfalls of building; once I start doing something repetitive like
drilling, dimpleing etc. it becomes like hammering nails and my mind tends
to wander. But building is so much fun I should be happy to build two of
everything, right?
I guess now I realize why people talk about building a second empannage at
the end of their project.
_______________________________________________________________________
|o| |o| <- where I drilled
o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o
HS409 | | | |
_____________________|_|_________________|_|___________________________
|o| | |o|
_____________________|_|________|________|_|____________________________
| | | |
o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o
HS409 |o| |o|
_____________________|_|_________________|_|____________________________
Curt Reimer
Depressed, but recovering, RV-6 builder.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | More mistakes... |
RV builder's screw-ups....
I have a spare left flap if anyone needs flap parts. Don't do
layout late at night and mark out two left flaps!!! I got all the way to
drilling the top skin before I realized.
They don't even laugh at Van's when you order new parts ... can't
say that about our local RV newsletter editor though.....
So don't worry about wrong holes as long as they can be plugged and
don't hurt structural integrity.
Gil Alexander RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: My latest foul-up... |
Curt Reimer sez:
[long confession about drilling 4 holes 1/4" off center but still 1/4" from
the edge of HS-409 flange strips deleted]
Sounds like you still have minimum edge distance, I wouldn't sweat it.
> Am I the only guy who does stupid things like this or what?
Yeah right.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Subject: | Fuel Tanks more capacity |
Howdy,
This is being done in Texas, Ol' Bob Brasher started it.
On your fuel tanks swap usage of the inboard rib (right tank to left, left
to right) this will give you an extra 1/2 gal of fuel and make it easier
to rivet the stub front attach spar to the rib. You might want to try
this on the outboard tank rib also, but the may be some interferance.
________________________________________________________________________________
on either homebuilts or spamcans. No need we never get high enough
rel. humdity. (never seen any water in a tank of fuel) The spam
cans have a tab on the inside of the fuel filler neck. I put one into
my tanks, a tab, I will calibrate it when installed on the plane.
Now when I have partially filled tanks I will know exactly how much
fuel I have.
No fueling around,
Doug B
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
Subject: | Testing fuel tank |
Hi all,
So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of
filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting
while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell
that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. This process
also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if
there is a leak (besides cry)?
As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will
improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it
is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip
up the tab? Will it loosen up over time?
One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to
seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts
store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab of
ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)?
Tanks once more for the help.
(sorry...it's still early here)
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal"
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
A couple of questions for ya'll
1. Whats the email addr to subscribe to the list. A friend wants to join
2. Where are all the messages archived at??
An last but not least, the really important one.
Frank J. and others that are going to the RV flying this weekend (OR).
Please take a good look at the fast build wing kit. I would like to get
the net.wisdom on this. I am try to decide on what to spend my money on.
The pre-built spar, or the fast build wing kit.???? If they have any lit.
etc. Could some one pass on my name and addr
John M. Brown
1474 Hicks Ave
San Jose, CA 95125
Thanks mucho....
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Fast build kit comes from Steve Barnard [BAC - Barnard Aircraft
Company] in Cameron Park, CA in the (916) area code ...... call him for an
info sheet. Saw parts of his kit at the Bakerfield RV fly-in last weekend
and they look good ...... Gil Alexander
>A couple of questions for ya'll
>
>1. Whats the email addr to subscribe to the list. A friend wants to join
>2. Where are all the messages archived at??
>
>An last but not least, the really important one.
>
>Frank J. and others that are going to the RV flying this weekend (OR).
>Please take a good look at the fast build wing kit. I would like to get
>the net.wisdom on this. I am try to decide on what to spend my money on.
>The pre-built spar, or the fast build wing kit.???? If they have any lit.
>etc. Could some one pass on my name and addr
>John M. Brown
>1474 Hicks Ave
>San Jose, CA 95125
>
>Thanks mucho....
>-------sig cut here-------
>jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
>Building an RV-6 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone #? |
>
> > I've got the heated pitot on my RV6A. You don't actually need the tube
> > until you've painted the wings. However, you do need a mounting bracket
> > (mast) of some sort when assembling the wing (surprise; it doesn't come with
> > the tube!). I got my mount from White Industries for about $25.
>
> White industries -- Phone number?
> Mast is good quality? I wonder what's different about it than the ones
> sold by Wag-Aero which cost $133? (probably just paperwork...)
>
> Frank J. told me there's no problem with going ahead and riveting the
> leading edge before I get the mast as I can still still install pretty it
> easily as long as the tank is off. Do you concur?
>
> Randall
>
I got the mount from a junked production plana via White Industries
(800-821-7733; ask for Russ). It was a used part, but in excellent
condition. Actually, I bought a combination pitot/static heated tube
from Chief Aircraft (I think I paid about $150), so make sure you specify
exactly which tube you have (not sure if it would make a difference).
I've gotten a few other parts from White (ie. used post-lights,
remote-control gascolator, etc.) and have had no problems with their
service. They don't take credit cards but they do ship COD.
I attached the mount just prior to final skinning of the wings, but I
believe it could be done after the skinning. I didn't use a doubler since
I installed the mount near a rib/spar corner, at which point the skin
is fairly oil-canning proof.
Oh yeh, I use a Bosch automotive-relay to switch power to the heated tube,
but that's another story...
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank |
>
> So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of
> filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting
> while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell
> that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. This process
> also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if
> there is a leak (besides cry)?
I put a ballon on the fuel-inlet fitting and attached the vent-fitting (using
a rubber hose) to my compressor, via a handle-actuated valve. I set the
compressor on its LOWEST pressure setting and then gave a shot of air into
the vent line. Then WAIT a second or two. Then another quick shot, etc..
until the ballon starts to erect a bit. Now, being real careful not to give
it too much air, give it a few more shots until the ballon inflates. There
will be a definite delay between that last shot of air and until the ballon
inflates. Don't over-pressure the tank; it could damage the Proseal and
Slosh sealing!!!
Now brush on a soapy water solution over the tank, looking for bubbles. I
only found them at the fuel-cap, which was okay. You'll probably get this
same info from other builders, since I think it is a fairly common way
to test the tanks.
> One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to
> seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts
> store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab of
> ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)?
Sorry, but a forget the exact brand, but it was a fuel-approved sealer. Don't
use ProSeal; you'll never get it out if you have a need in the future.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Testing fuel tank |
Here's an idea,
Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to
the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs, 20lbs,
then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. Then
watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks are
present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water will
show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have a way
to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC systems,
what do you think?
Let me know if this works, I'm building my tanks now.
Mike Wilson, RV-4
Hi all,
So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of
filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting
while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell
that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else.
This process
also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if
there is a leak (besides cry)?
As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will
improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it
is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip
up the tab? Will it loosen up over time?
One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to
seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts
store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab of
ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)?
Tanks once more for the help.
(sorry...it's still early here)
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal"
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Tail & Wing Jig "John Brown" |
I built my Tail Jig from 4X4s as Van suggests. The Vert. & Horiz. Stabs
only spent about a month in it and they came out pretty straight. I didn't
get the First wing ready for Jigging for about another 6 months. The Jig
was left up the whole time. When it was time to get the wing set up I
noticed that the uprights had twisted about 30 degrees from top to bottom
from warpage.
I was afraid of that. Since I knew the Wings would spend a long time in the
Jig I wanted to make them out of metal anyway. I stopped at my local scrap
metal yard and found a couple of 3X3 posts cut from an old road sign. There
was even a flange welded on the bottom. ($12 for both!)
Putting anchors in the garage floor was easy, but one of the posts wouldn't
reach the ceiling. The other was OK the I bolted two 2' pieces of angle
iron to ceiling to anchor it. The other was a problem.
The fix for it might interest you. I found several pieces of scrap 5/8
threaded rod. I welded them to 6' lengths of 1"sq. tubing. I then welded a
small flange to the other end of the tube and drilled holes in order to
"Lag" bolt them to the back and side walls of my garage. Holes were then
drilled through one side of the post at the top and another, an inch below
it, 90 degrees to the first. The threaded rod ends were then inserted
through the posts with nuts on either side. These are used to adjust the
post in the "X" "Y" planes to level it.
There are several advantages I discovered. The Post is very rigid. Even
more so that the one bolted to the ceiling. With no braces at "Knee level"
it is a lot easier to get around in my cramped garage. Finally being metal
there is no warpage. My Plump bob remains constant. I am always checking
it, but never need to make an adjustment. (Tip: If you let the plumb bob
hover in a small jar of light oil, you aren't always waiting for it to
settle down.)
I am sure that by putting another tube across the top to the second upright
it could be made to be "semi-free standing" as well. All you need are two
walls and a floor.
If you have trouble with my discription, and want to know more, let me know
and I'll try to do an ASCII drawing or maybe E-Mail you a ".TIF" file.
Good luck!
bobn(at)ims.com #20110
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
I noticed in the manual last night that the photographs of the empannage
show considerably more lightening holes in the H.S than the plans and text
describe. Has anyone else cut these extra holes? Is there a limit
recommended by Van? It would seem wise to keep the empannage as light as
possible, given the CofG situation in an RV-6.
As far as the stamped-in lightening holes provided in the kit ribs
(H.S.405s etc) I cut only the very inner flat part out of mine but I
wonder if I should have included a bit of the flange material as well. The
video shows just the center flat part removed, but the manual photographs
show considerably larger holes.
Just wondered if anyone had the official scoop from Van on this subject.
I havn't done the math yet, but I wonder if all the extra holes might only
add up to a couple of ounces anyway, which might give perhaps a pound or
two additional baggage compartment capacity, in which case it probably
wouldn't be worth the trouble.
Regards,
Curt Reimer
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Testing fuel tank |
>Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank
>Here's an idea,
>Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to
>the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs,
>20lbs,
>then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure.
>Mike Wilson, RV-4
Even 10 ibs/sq in seemed a little high until I thought about it. That would
be about 150 pounds pushing on each skin area but it is about the eqivalent
pressure you would see with a full load of fuel pulling about 8 G's. It would
certainly tell you if your tank is going to hold together.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
> recommended by Van? It would seem wise to keep the empannage as light as
> possible, given the CofG situation in an RV-6.
What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320
and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting
passenger and baggage weight?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
Subject: | Fuel tank testing |
Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I
believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs.
of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440
lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article
said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using
one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, John H Henderson wrote:
> > recommended by Van? It would seem wise to keep the empannage as light as
> > possible, given the CofG situation in an RV-6.
>
> What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320
> and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting
> passenger and baggage weight?
>
Thats what I mean. The lighter you keep the tail, the more you shift the
CG forward, thus partially compensating for having a light engine and
prop.
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank testing |
>
>
> Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I
> believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs.
> of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440
> lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article
> said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using
> one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft.
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
>
I tried to emphasize this in my last posting; watch the cummulative pressure!
However, don't be too paranoid about it. Just keep an eye on the ballon and
keep giving the tank small shots of air. There is a definite lag as the air
distributes itself in the tank. As soon as the ballon begins to erect, STOP
and WAIT a few seconds. Then give another shot, wait, etc... Then add just
enough to inflate the ballon, and no more. I really don't think there is
any risk in this unless you get impatient and add too much at once. Its
kind of hard to be too quantitative in the process when you are dealing with
imprecise air gauges. You just need enough pressure to inflate the ballon.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
> > What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320
> > and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting
> > passenger and baggage weight?
> >
> Thats what I mean. The lighter you keep the tail, the more you shift the
> CG forward, thus partially compensating for having a light engine and
> prop.
Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on
the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned
fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the
possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending
the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my
ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches
to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about
an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6,"
Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine
installation.)
I was intrigued by the "Engine Beat" column in the July Kitplanes.
Henry Boulay is working on four 4-cylinder engines between
170--240 HP with weights from 220--255# wet. Looking at the
RVator index, I see there was an article on him in the RVator
last year, but I don't have them before this year. Also, Ivoprop's
new, larger, non-Rotax propellers are interesting. They're
developing an electric constant-speed system. Seems with these
options, you could install a constant speed prop with more power
than an O-360 with less weight than an O-320/wood prop installation.
Reducing weight can only improve performance, but it would be
a shame to be limited by CG considerations.
If moving the firewall forward is structurall possible, the
disadvantages I see are that the angle of the fuselage and
cowl may not match up, and I don't know what the effect of
moving the front gear farther forward of the CG would be.
Just throwing out some ideas.
Someone here once mentioned (a couple of years ago) that
Continental was developing a 4-cylinder (I think) O-370
to compete with the Lycoming O-360. Whatever happened to
that?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank testing |
From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I
> believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs.
> of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440
> lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article
> said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using
> one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft.
Yes, under one pound is what I remember as well. The customary way
to do this is with an inflated balloon. For comparison, remember that
1 atmosphere is 14.7 psi. An excellent product for finding gas leaks
is "Snoop." It's more sensitive than soapy water and bubbles like
crazy. I don't know where to purchase it but anyone familiar with
gas chromatography instruments sure would be.
Earl Brabandt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com> |
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank testing |
Reply to: RE>Fuel tank testing
Hey Gang,
I havent had time to get this up on the list till now... so here goes:
I have built many sets of RV fuel tanks. I tested each one...never had one
leak .
Here was my test method...
When the tank is complete you have all the companants installed, this
includes the vent fitting, petcock drain, and engine fuel supply
fitting...right?
I made a tube for the engine fuel supply fitting that was about a foot long.
It was flaired for the fitting so there was a good seal there. Now here is
the cute part... I curved that line away from the tank and rubberband'd a
balloon to it. Just a normal rubber balloon. Then *very slowly* add enough
air thru the vent fitting to inflate the balloon about 3/4 full. If you cap
the vent with one of those plastic fitting caps, the balloon should stay
full... if it leaks check the rubberband... Then I did the soap and water
looking for bubbles around the rivits and cap and such.... I was lucky and
*never* had to re-do a single one. I wasn't able to measure the pressure
in that tank...it was *visible* by the inflated balloon. If the pressure was
too high I supose the balloon would pop or go fluttering around the shop!
Simple and cheap and it worked every time.
Happy tanking!
Douglas Miner
and we are almost DONE! Any PDX'ers need a
hand? I am almost available.
--------------------------------------
Date: 6/10/94 9:39 AM
From: took.enet.dec.com!sanchez@matr
Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I
believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs.
of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440
lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article
said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using
one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
Subject: | Re[2]: Testing fuel tank |
>Here's an idea,
>Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to
>the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs,20lbs,
>then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. Then
>watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks are
>present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water will
>show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have a
>to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC systems,
>what do you think?
30 lbs!!
You will have holes in your tank then!! When you pressure check the tank you
only put 2-3 psi in it! Best test is with freon and a freon detector but that
aint environmentally possible anymore. But the simplest test you can do is
stand the tank on it's end, tie a balloon to the fuel and shoot compressed air
into the fuel pickup. When the balloon inflates cap things shut! Leave it sit
for a few hours or over night. If the balloon is relatively the same size you
have no leaks
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
Subject: | Re: CG (Was Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage) |
> > > What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320
> > > and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting
> > > passenger and baggage weight?
> > >
> > Thats what I mean. The lighter you keep the tail, the more you shift the
> > CG forward, thus partially compensating for having a light engine and
> > prop.
>
> Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on
> the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned
> fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the
> possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending
> the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my
> ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches
> to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about
> an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6,"
> Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine
> installation.)
I've been wondering about that. It wasn't obvious to me how the CG would
change on the -6A compared to the -6. While you now have a nose wheel
up front versus a light tail wheel in the back, the heavy main gear must now
be behind the CG instead of in front, or else you'll have a tail dragger in
the truest sense. Does anyone have any actual data on typical CGs for the
-6A and -6? Or to ask it another way, does the CG on a -6A with an O-320
and wood prop typically end up in a "nice" place, or does it tend to be
a tad tail heavy?
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
Curt Reimer sez:
> As far as the stamped-in lightening holes provided in the kit ribs
> (H.S.405s etc) I cut only the very inner flat part out of mine but I
> wonder if I should have included a bit of the flange material as well. The
> video shows just the center flat part removed, but the manual photographs
> show considerably larger holes.
One thing I've found as I got further along on my project is that there are
little tidbits about stuff like this that they don't say up front where you
sometimes need it - for example I couldn't find anything in the empennage
section or plans about how much to take out of lightening holes. But when
I got to the wing ribs, it says to leave at least 75% of the stiffening ring.
Another thing I noticed was that up till I started on the wings I thought the
min. edge distance for everything was 1/4", but then in the wing instructions
it says it's 3/16" for 3/32" rivets and 1/4" for 1/8" rivets. Could be I
missed some things up front, but I read that stuff pretty carefully. Moral:
read ahead -- WAY ahead.
> I havn't done the math yet, but I wonder if all the extra holes might only
> add up to a couple of ounces anyway, which might give perhaps a pound or
> two additional baggage compartment capacity, in which case it probably
> wouldn't be worth the trouble.
Well an ounce here, an ounce there.... I figure I'll add enough weight in
extra crap that I want to shave it off wherever else I can. I'd like to know
what Van says about those extra holes, even though it's too late for me to do
anything about the empennage.
A side note to this -- I recently had a look at Art Chard's RV-6, which he's
been working on on the side for about 5 years (he builds prototypes for Van
and airframes and components for others -- this -6 is his "spare time"
project), and he's got lightening holes all OVER the place. Every possible
piece of angle stiffener is tapered, and his aileron brackets look like swiss
cheese! So I suppose there's a lot of opportunity for adding lightening
measures, though I think it would be wise to consult an engineer type before
going too wild with this.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank testing |
I don't know if this has anything to do with testing fuel tanks, but it is interesting
to know.... Assuming that two baloons are otherwise the same, if one
is inflated to a larger size, it will have a lower internal pressure. One would
assume that the two baloons would ballance in size. Not so! You can try
this yourself by inflating two baloons to diferent sizes and conecting them with
a tube. The small baloon will "give up" it's air to the large balloon. Try
it.
----- Begin Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Doug Miner" <qm.wv.tek.com!dougm(at)matronics.com> |
Subject: | Re: Fuel tank testing |
Reply to: RE>Fuel tank testing
Hey Gang,
I havent had time to get this up on the list till now... so here goes:
I have built many sets of RV fuel tanks. I tested each one...never had one
leak .
Here was my test method...
When the tank is complete you have all the companants installed, this
includes the vent fitting, petcock drain, and engine fuel supply
fitting...right?
I made a tube for the engine fuel supply fitting that was about a foot long.
It was flaired for the fitting so there was a good seal there. Now here is
the cute part... I curved that line away from the tank and rubberband'd a
balloon to it. Just a normal rubber balloon. Then *very slowly* add enough
air thru the vent fitting to inflate the balloon about 3/4 full. If you cap
the vent with one of those plastic fitting caps, the balloon should stay
full... if it leaks check the rubberband... Then I did the soap and water
looking for bubbles around the rivits and cap and such.... I was lucky and
*never* had to re-do a single one. I wasn't able to measure the pressure
in that tank...it was *visible* by the inflated balloon. If the pressure was
too high I supose the balloon would pop or go fluttering around the shop!
Simple and cheap and it worked every time.
Happy tanking!
Douglas Miner
and we are almost DONE! Any PDX'ers need a
hand? I am almost available.
--------------------------------------
Date: 6/10/94 9:39 AM
From: took.enet.dec.com!sanchez@matr
Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I
believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs.
of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440
lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article
said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using
one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft.
Cheryl Sanchez
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
> Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on
> the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned
> fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the
> possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending
> the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my
> ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches
> to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about
> an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6,"
> Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine
> installation.)
Lengthing the fuselage would be one solution to the CofG problem, but this
is a rather major structural modification and I think would require a
detailed analysis by Van himself. Lengthening the engine mount and cowl
would probably be a simpler solution, but why is there a problem in the
first place? After all the RV-6 was designed as a conventional gear,
O-320, wood prop airplane. You would have thought that if there were a
problem, it would be from having the CG too far FORWARD, from using a
heavier engine and prop!
On the same subject, there seems to be some unused space between the forward
instrument panel bulkhead and the firewall. I recall someone in Australia
used this area to mount a header tank. This might be a good way to shift
some of the fuel weight forward, at the expense of additional fuel system
complexity. Or, perhaps some kind of forward baggage compartment could be
built into this area?
> last year, but I don't have them before this year. Also, Ivoprop's
> new, larger, non-Rotax propellers are interesting. They're
> developing an electric constant-speed system. Seems with these
I am also wondering about these new Ivoprops. Sounds like they could be
very interesting. Anyone have any experience with these yet? The electric
CS would be real nice, but a ground adjustable type would be nearly as
useful, assuming the pitch adjustment is simple and quick. Just dial in
your expected pitch requirement for the flight and off you go. Anyone know
the rain erosion resistance and bolt tightening requirements of a carbon
fiber prop?
Curt Reimer
RV-6 Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Testing fuel tank |
One thing: The Mercury tester idea is about right, but for these purposes,
you could do it with some clear plastic tubing and water. Make a U shape
below the level of the tank (Don't want to get water IN the tank) and put
some water in it. Attach the tube the way you would attach the baloon,
insert some air so that the water is displaced up one side of the U, and then
you can get an accurate measure of how fast the air leaks. You won't get
very much pressure however.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re[3]: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
RV gang...
Another item mentioned by Van in one of his newsletters was
a Harmonic Balancer (wt 11 lbs.) mounted on the engine prop flange. Van
gave a "it seems to work" rating, but this seems like an easy way to move
the cg forward. I believe it came from Mark Landoll (sp?) .. he advertises
in Sport Aviation and Kitplanes.
Since I already have a O-320-E2G and am building an RV6A, I
am also very interested in this CG disussion. And yes ... I know the -E2G
won't work with the nose gear due to carb. clearance problems. Does anyone
know of any Lycoming O-320-E2E (Cessna 172) oilpan and induction pipes for
sale cheap (or trade) ???
Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 .... just on the way out of the
door for a weeks glider flying vacation in Utah ..... YAHOO!!!
>> Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on
>> the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned
>> fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the
>> possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending
>> the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my
>> ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches
>> to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about
>> an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6,"
>> Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine
>> installation.)
>
>Lengthing the fuselage would be one solution to the CofG problem, but this
>is a rather major structural modification and I think would require a
>detailed analysis by Van himself. Lengthening the engine mount and cowl
>would probably be a simpler solution, but why is there a problem in the
>first place? After all the RV-6 was designed as a conventional gear,
>O-320, wood prop airplane. You would have thought that if there were a
>problem, it would be from having the CG too far FORWARD, from using a
>heavier engine and prop!
>
>On the same subject, there seems to be some unused space between the forward
>instrument panel bulkhead and the firewall. I recall someone in Australia
>used this area to mount a header tank. This might be a good way to shift
>some of the fuel weight forward, at the expense of additional fuel system
>complexity. Or, perhaps some kind of forward baggage compartment could be
>built into this area?
>
>> last year, but I don't have them before this year. Also, Ivoprop's
>> new, larger, non-Rotax propellers are interesting. They're
>> developing an electric constant-speed system. Seems with these
>
>I am also wondering about these new Ivoprops. Sounds like they could be
>very interesting. Anyone have any experience with these yet? The electric
>CS would be real nice, but a ground adjustable type would be nearly as
>useful, assuming the pitch adjustment is simple and quick. Just dial in
>your expected pitch requirement for the flight and off you go. Anyone know
>the rain erosion resistance and bolt tightening requirements of a carbon
>fiber prop?
>
>Curt Reimer
>RV-6 Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Coaxial cable for antennas |
I have access to "sample" coax cable thru work, and am trying to figure out
what's the best to run to my nav/com antennas. As I understand it, RG-58/U
is the stuff, but there are several choices listed, with different jacket
materials, dialectrics, conductor sizes, Plenum rated or not, etc. Anyone
know just what's the best to use? Also, there's a listing for MIN-C-17 with
looks like the MIL-SPEC version of coax with higher fire ratings, etc. Would
that be preferable?
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
>Here's an idea,
>Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to
>the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs,
>20lbs,
>then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure.
>Mike Wilson, RV-4
> Even 10 ibs/sq in seemed a little high until I thought about it. That
>would be about 150 pounds pushing on each skin area but it is about the
>eqivalent pressure you would see with a full load of fuel pulling about 8
>G's. It would certainly tell you if your tank is going to hold together.
> Frank J.
Frank and Cheryl are on the right track. If one side of the tank is about
46" long inside and about 20" wide, the area is 46"X20" = 920 sq"s. (I'm
guessing, I don't have the prints in front of me) Multiply that by 10
Pounds/Square Inch and there is 9,200lbs total pressure. If the other side
is about the same, the total pressure would be 18,400lbs total.
A baloon should never let you get more that a couple of lbs of air, unless
the air is shot in very fast.
My choice is a couple of strokes on a bicycle pump.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Coaxial cable for antennas |
Randall Henderson wrote:
>I have access to "sample" coax cable thru work, and am trying to figure out
>what's the best to run to my nav/com antennas. As I understand it, RG-58/U
>is the stuff, but there are several choices listed, with different jacket
>materials, dialectrics, conductor sizes, Plenum rated or not, etc. Anyone
>know just what's the best to use? Also, there's a listing for MIN-C-17 with
>looks like the MIL-SPEC version of coax with higher fire ratings, etc. Would
>that be preferable?
>
Randall,
I don't have my aircraft cable book here, but make sure that the
cable you pick has a stranded (NOT solid like Radio Shack cable) center
conductor, and a high shield coverage for the braid ... usually 95% or
greater. Leads and braid that are labeled as "tinned copper" are easier
to work with, and create better soldered joints. These items should be
listed in your cable choices. Plenum rated is a commercial grade suitable
for running in air ducting .. should resist more heat and give off less
noxious fumes when burnt.
But, in this case, the Mil Spec cables are the best, and don't
even cost any more if you go to an industrial supplier. Your cost looks
even lower though....
Some good choices from the Belden catalog (probably the largest US manufacturer)
other manufacturers cables to the same Mil Spec are also equally good
Belden 8262 MIL-C-17D ... standard Mil Spec
Belden 9203 MIL-C-17E ... seems to be an updated version of above
Belden 8219 RG58 A/U .... commercial grade with "foam" insulation - slightly
lower loss, but negligable for our application
The main troubles I have seen with co-ax cables is in the
connectors. Be sure you carefully follow the assembly instructions for the
connectors, and only buy top grade connectors ... intermittents and RF
reflections caused by poor connectors with bad assembly and internal
corrosion are always a bitch to trouble shoot and find. I prefer soldered
joints for co-ax assembly for long term reliability.
As I said in my last posting, I'm off on a gliding vacation, but if
you wish to e-mail me later (or post on the rv-list), I can get easy mail
order sources and prices for good quality co-ax connectors when I return on
6-20.
have fun .... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage |
> > fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the
> > possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending
> > the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my
> > ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches
> Lengthing the fuselage would be one solution to the CofG problem, but this
> is a rather major structural modification and I think would require a
> detailed analysis by Van himself. Lengthening the engine mount and cowl
> would probably be a simpler solution, but why is there a problem in the
I thought of that before thinking of lengthening ribs. It's a simpler
solution if you want to learn to weld to build one engine mount and
want to get into a lot of fiberglass mess to build a new cowl. Seems
by the time you're that far along with the plane, you'd be pretty good
at metal working.
> Another item mentioned by Van in one of his newsletters was
>a Harmonic Balancer (wt 11 lbs.) mounted on the engine prop flange. Van
>gave a "it seems to work" rating, but this seems like an easy way to move
>the cg forward. I believe it came from Mark Landoll (sp?) .. he advertises
>in Sport Aviation and Kitplanes.
My suggestion of moving the engine forward was based on the notion
of maintaining proper CG without addition of extra weight. I'd
like to take advantage of any weight reduction with increased load
and/or/performance.
> I am also wondering about these new Ivoprops. Sounds like they could be
> very interesting. Anyone have any experience with these yet? The electric
> CS would be real nice, but a ground adjustable type would be nearly as
> useful, assuming the pitch adjustment is simple and quick. Just dial in
> your expected pitch requirement for the flight and off you go. Anyone know
As I understand it, ground adjustables are available now. I seem
to recall that there is a screw in the hub that you turn to adjust
the pitch. An interesting note about the Ivoprops: Instead of the
blade rotating as in a CS prop to adjust pitch, the Ivoprop blades
twist. When you think about how the speed of the blade through the
air decreases the closer you are to the center, this makes a lot
of sense. The Rotax versions had an electrically controlled pitch
option, but it wasn't CS. The system they're working on now is CS.
The Ivoprops also come in up to 6-blade configuration! It seems that
they simply add more blades for greater power. The 6 blade was for
something like 300HP. An RV would take something like a 3 or 4 blade.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>
> 1. Whats the email addr to subscribe to the list. A friend wants to join.
>
You can subscribe to the rv-list by sending a request to:
rv-list-request(at)matronics.com
Please include the following information:
1) An email address you wish to receive the rv-list postings at:
2) Your FirstName, LastName:
3) Your US Paper Mail Address:
4) Your Daytime Phone:
5) Your Evening Phone:
6) The type of RV you want/are building (RV-4, RV-6, etc.):
>
> 2. Where are all the messages archived at??
>
The current rv-list archive is about 2.3 mb uncompressed. It is available
via email request only, and is in a UNIX-style compress, and uuencode format.
Send a email message to "rv-list-request(at)matronics.com" requesting
"The latest rv-list archive file".
Happy Building/Flying
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
Subject: | Horiz. Stab. finished |
Well as Van would say " one piece finished and another step closer to
completing my project." I think I learned so many ways not to build metal
airplanes during this first piece. I have already put together by frame
for the vertical stabilizer. I can tell I know what I am doing a little
more so now since I think about several steps down the road for each
action I take. It pays. I have also devised clever ways to speed progress
as well as accuracy. Predrilling the ribs before mounting can generally be
a real time saver.
Thanks to this group I have regained my interst in the project. Thanks to
all. I am having fun now!
- Randy
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: | : Randy S. McCallister :
: _________________|_________________ ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: \ | | / : :
: `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 :
: /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 :
:RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu :
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
Hi all,
I was working on running the plumbing for the pitot tube in the left wing
this weekend and ran into a question (what else is new...) - what do you
do with the other end of it? How long should you leave it? Any fittings?
I got a few ideas from one of the Tony Bingalis (sp?) books, but
I thought I'd solicit a few other opinions before I go off and do something
I'll regret later.
BTW - I also tested my left fuel tank using the balloon method suggested
here. Success!! My wife couldn't understand why I was so pleased with myself
at having blown up a balloon. Ah, the simple pleasures...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Re: Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
I know this has nothing to do with RV's but can anyone give me the name of
an FTP site where I an get MOSAIC for the MAC?
Progress has been slow on my -4 as I am in midst of finalizing difficult
personal financial situation (tranlate - messy divorce) but some progress
is being made.
Fuselage is on gear and have just about finished up panel, etc. Now I need
to paint interior before I do final install of all cockpit goodies. Wings
are ready for top skins, wing tips, etc. before mounting engine, cowl, etc.
Should be a long, fun summer working on the RV!
Happy flying and building to all!
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Pitot plumbing |
>
> I was working on running the plumbing for the pitot tube in the left wing
> this weekend and ran into a question (what else is new...) - what do you
> do with the other end of it? How long should you leave it? Any fittings?
> I got a few ideas from one of the Tony Bingalis (sp?) books, but
> I thought I'd solicit a few other opinions before I go off and do something
> I'll regret later.
I plan on using standard AN flared fittings at the fuselage (ie. AN832) for the
pitot
and static lines, where all the lines will be aluminum (with enough of a loop for
wing/fuselage vibration). I'm still scratching my head on the fuel and vent lines;
I'd like to use the same approach, but am nervous about the vibration. Any thoughts
on this? I was thinking of using a rubber hose to a flared/bulkhead fitting
(ie. AN807), but still deciding. The doubler for the RV6A main gear support tends
to by in the way for the bulkhead fittings, but is workable.
>
> BTW - I also tested my left fuel tank using the balloon method suggested
> here. Success!! My wife couldn't understand why I was so pleased with myself
> at having blown up a balloon. Ah, the simple pleasures...
Gee, it seems like everyone that tests their tanks with the balloon method passes
with flying colors (me included). Its either a very good test or a very bad test.
>
> Tom Goeddel
> RV-6A
> t.goeddel(at)att.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Fast-Build Wing for RV |
I looked at the components in the wing fast-build kit that Van's is now
selling this weekend. Like a lot of things it will be right for some
people and not others.
The kit consists of all the smaller pieces completely drilled and
finished. I estimate that a really good builder working on his first
airplane and able to see other people's projects will save about 100
hours of work and about 50 hours of head-scratching time. For an
average builder working alone add about 100 more hours. The workmanship
on all the components is excellent and everything looks professional.
Most of it does not show in the finish product however.
My advice? For the typical builder who enjoys building and/or is short
of money, don't get the fast-build kit. If on the other hand you are
desperate to get into the air and have plenty of money, this kit could
save you one or two months of time. Keep in mind however that the parts
in this kit only represent about one-fourth of the time required to
build your wings, and none are particularly tricky to do yourself.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
James M Wilson
Subject: | Re[2]: Testing fuel tank |
Hi RVer's,
Its been a real bad couple of days here at work, we lost our major
site mail host with a disk crash and I have had had to spend a lot of
RV building time beating the mail host back into shape. Fortunately I
was able to divert a lot of our incoming mail to a Unix box with a big
disk, this list sure has been busy since the "advertisement" in the
rec.aviation lists.
Now down to the important stuff!!-
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank
Date: 09/6/94 11:30 AM
>Here's an idea,
>Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to
>the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs,
>20lbs, then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure.
>Then watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks
>are present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water
>will show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have
>a way to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC
>systems, what do you think?
>Let me know if this works, I'm building my tanks now.
>Mike Wilson, RV-4
Mike, Don't waste your money. If you try pumping that sort of pressure into your
tank you will have some very nice bulging effects. All I did with my first RV
tanks was dampen the 'O' ring on the fuel cap with some fuel - this is the major
source of all tank leaks - blow up a kid's toy balloon and attach it to the
outlet of the tank. If the balloon is still inflated after two or three days you
have a good tank. On thing to look out for is the fact that balloons do go down
by themselves after a few days, so blow up a second balloon as a 'control'.
Compare the two each day and they should be the same size.
>Hi all,
>So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of
>filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting
>while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell
>that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else.
>This process
>also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if
>there is a leak (besides cry)?
>As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will
>improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it
>is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip
>up the tab? Will it loosen up over time?
See my comment above, the rubber seal needs a bit of a swim in some AVGAS to
soften the rubber and get a nice seal.
>One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to
>seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts
>store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab
>of ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)?
Proseal was all I used.
>Tanks once more for the help.
>(sorry...it's still early here)
Oh PLEEEEEASE!! :-)
>Tom Goeddel
>RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal"
>t.goeddel(at)att.com
John Morrissey
VH-HRV RV-6
VH-??? RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re[3]: Testing fuel tank |
Geee!!!
I was just thinking out-loud. I really didn't mean to imply using the fuel tank
as an alternate reservoir for my Air-Tool compressor.
Sure generated some good input on the subject though.
I've been watching the mail. The balloon idea sounds like the way to go.
Thanks,
MikeWilson
Hi RVer's,
Its been a real bad couple of days here at work, we lost our major
site mail host with a disk crash and I have had had to spend a lot of
RV building time beating the mail host back into shape. Fortunately I
was able to divert a lot of our incoming mail to a Unix box with a big
disk, this list sure has been busy since the "advertisement" in the
rec.aviation lists.
Now down to the important stuff!!-
______________________________ Reply Separator _______________________________
__
Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank
Date: 09/6/94 11:30 AM
>Here's an idea,
>Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers.
Rig it to
>the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs,
>20lbs, then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended
test pressure.
>Then watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time.
If leaks
>are present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water.
Soapy water
>will show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what
to fix and have
>a way to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC
>systems, what do you think?
>Let me know if this works, I'm building my tanks now.
>Mike Wilson, RV-4
Mike, Don't waste your money. If you try pumping that sort of pressure
into your
tank you will have some very nice bulging effects. All I did with
my first RV
tanks was dampen the 'O' ring on the fuel cap with some fuel - this
is the major
source of all tank leaks - blow up a kid's toy balloon and attach it to the
outlet of the tank. If the balloon is still inflated after two or
three days you
have a good tank. On thing to look out for is the fact that balloons
do go down
by themselves after a few days, so blow up a second balloon as a 'control'.
Compare the two each day and they should be the same size.
>Hi all,
>So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of
>filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting
>while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell
>that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else.
>This process
>also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if
>there is a leak (besides cry)?
>As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will
>improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it
>is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip
>up the tab? Will it loosen up over time?
See my comment above, the rubber seal needs a bit of a swim in some AVGAS to
soften the rubber and get a nice seal.
>One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should
be used to
>seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts
>store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab
>of ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)?
Proseal was all I used.
>Tanks once more for the help.
>(sorry...it's still early here)
Oh PLEEEEEASE!! :-)
>Tom Goeddel
>RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal"
>t.goeddel(at)att.com
John Morrissey
VH-HRV RV-6
VH-??? RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Subject: | Re[2]: Possible WWW server for RV stuff. |
Hi Richard,
The answer to your question is:--
ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu
Directory mac/mosaic
Version 2 for MAC was released last Friday.
BTW:- Due to a very busy work schedule I am still working on the first
release of the WWW page for RV's. Due out next week I hope.
Enjoy!!
John Morrissey
>I know this has nothing to do with RV's but can anyone give me the name of
>an FTP site where I an get MOSAIC for the MAC?
>Progress has been slow on my -4 as I am in midst of finalizing difficult
>personal financial situation (tranlate - messy divorce) but some progress
>is being made.
>Fuselage is on gear and have just about finished up panel, etc. Now I
>need to paint interior before I do final install of all cockpit goodies.
>Wings are ready for top skins, wing tips, etc. before mounting engine,
>cowl, etc.
>Should be a long, fun summer working on the RV!
>Happy flying and building to all!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re[2]: Coaxial cable for antennas |
When I bought my Flybuddy and KX-125, they came with ample coax and connectors
(solder type).
dw
_________________________________________________________________________
Randall Henderson wrote:
>I have access to "sample" coax cable thru work, and am trying to figure out
>what's the best to run to my nav/com antennas. As I understand it, RG-58/U
>is the stuff, but there are several choices listed, with different jacket
>materials, dialectrics, conductor sizes, Plenum rated or not, etc. Anyone
>know just what's the best to use? Also, there's a listing for MIN-C-17 with
>looks like the MIL-SPEC version of coax with higher fire ratings, etc. Would
>that be preferable?
>
Randall,
I don't have my aircraft cable book here, but make sure that the
cable you pick has a stranded (NOT solid like Radio Shack cable) center
conductor, and a high shield coverage for the braid ... usually 95% or
greater. Leads and braid that are labeled as "tinned copper" are easier
to work with, and create better soldered joints. These items should be
listed in your cable choices. Plenum rated is a commercial grade suitable
for running in air ducting .. should resist more heat and give off less
noxious fumes when burnt.
But, in this case, the Mil Spec cables are the best, and don't
even cost any more if you go to an industrial supplier. Your cost looks
even lower though....
Some good choices from the Belden catalog (probably the largest US
manufacturer)
other manufacturers cables to the same Mil Spec are also equally good
Belden 8262 MIL-C-17D ... standard Mil Spec
Belden 9203 MIL-C-17E ... seems to be an updated version of above
Belden 8219 RG58 A/U .... commercial grade with "foam" insulation
- slightly
lower loss, but negligable for our
application
The main troubles I have seen with co-ax cables is in the
connectors. Be sure you carefully follow the assembly instructions for the
connectors, and only buy top grade connectors ... intermittents and RF
reflections caused by poor connectors with bad assembly and internal
corrosion are always a bitch to trouble shoot and find. I prefer soldered
joints for co-ax assembly for long term reliability.
As I said in my last posting, I'm off on a gliding vacation, but if
you wish to e-mail me later (or post on the rv-list), I can get easy mail
order sources and prices for good quality co-ax connectors when I return on
6-20.
have fun .... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Scappoose Fly-In - my report |
Well, I went to the RV Fly in at Scappoose this weekend. (first time I've
gone there via ground transportation). I got my first sunburn of the summer.
I also got a really good look at about 38 (Don's count) examples of Van's
product.
It was very interesting to see the little bits that people did differently.
The two things I noticed that varied the most were the wingtip/lighting
treatments and of course, the Panels. I took pictures of some of those.
Interesting that nobody had used the engine monitor I had asked about a while
ago (The 5" sq. LCD panel with the simulated dials), but a couple of people
spoke highly of the Rocky Mountain Instruments unit, which costs about 1/3th
as much and takes half the panel space.
It was also my first chance to see examples of both good and bad
craftsmanship. There was a -3 there with a beautiful paint job - laid over
terribly rippled wings, the skins held on by round headed rivits. There were
some immaculate -6As. In a few cases, I could tell which elevator had been
done first. Some people were obviously fast learners.
I also got my first ride in one of the factory planes (the blue -6A). Wow.
160 HP is plenty! What a rush on the take off. (And I'm well above the FAA
standard). Getting to ride in one of these after doing all my training in a
C-150 is like learning to drive in a VW Beetle and then being plopped down in
the seat of a Jag. Definite building inspiration, and proof that I'll need
some training before I fly mine - way in the future. As I've said, I'm still
in the saving up to buy a garage to build it in stage. This was probably the
first time other than a roller coaster I've pulled three Gs. Whee! Time to
work on my Cardio-Vascular fitness. My arms felt dead and my brain felt like
it was being squashed.
It took a little getting used to to fly it, since even the Taylorcraft uses a
yoke, and I didn't have much time (Low fuel at the end of a day of flying
Young Eagles). Also, sitting in the right seat, all the instruments I would
want to look at were not where I could look at them easily. Nonetheless, it
was smooth, responsive, and capable. And Fast. Real estate passed
underneath about twice as fast as I was used to.
The negative impression I've got about the 6-A design is seeing just how much
the gear leg brackets protrude into the cockpit. Ugh. Another point scored
for the -6.
Several of the planes were done but not painted. One, a -6A, was having
trouble starting the engine and a guy over by one of the immaculate -6As said
"That's what happens when you don't paint your plane, the engine won't
start." This is a factor I was unaware of. :-)
Anyway, it was fun, I got to look at a lot of great planes, and it's only
increased my determination to do this as soon as I can.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Russellville, AL RV gathering |
I was going to come into work this morning and tell the
RV-listers about my experience at the Russellville RV
gathering this past weekend, only to find that I had been
already upstaged by Richard Chandler's account of the Scappoose
fly-in.
Well, here goes anyway:
I was really excited about an RV gathering being here in Alabama.
Although I had determined that an RV-6 was what I wanted to build,
I had never seen a Van's product in person. When I woke up
Saturday morning to a driving rain, I was afraid that it was all
over, but since this was all I had to do last weekend, I went
anyway. All I'd be out would be a tank of gas if no one was there.
Well, once I was north of Birmingham and through the weather
front, the overcast broke up.
I started to become excited when I passed the "Russellville city limit"
sign and turned onto the airport road. I looked up to see a small
fast plane with rectangular wings fly over. My heart started to
pound. I turned into the airport, and started down the gravel lane
leading to the hangars. I could see RV-3s and RV-4s in the shadows
beneath the roofs. Just then, Johnny and Brenda Malone's beautiful
metallic-Burgandy-with-gray-stripes RV-6 taxied out from behind the
building. I almost drove off the road!
There were RVs all over the place! The first thing I noticed about
the RVs is that they sure look good in person! They were fantastic
looking little planes. The pictures in magazines and videos do
these things no justice. I registered, and then spent hours looking
at planes and talking to fliers, builders and other hopefuls like
myself.
There were a total of six RVs there: One RV-3, three RV-4s, one RV-6
and one RV-6A, so there was at least one of each to drool over.
It was interesting to see the little differences between planes.
Like Richard at Scappoose, I was particurly interested in lighting
and panel choices. (There was some discussion here about strobe lights
on the wingtips. The choices seemed to be (1) power supply in
fuselage with HV wires past fuel tanks (dangerous), or (2) Individual power
supplies in the wingtips (heavy). I don't undertand putting the strobes
in the wingtips, when the top of the tail seems to be an adequate place.)
Carl and "Bing" Crausby had a nice door into the baggage compartment
on the side of their -6A. Someone told them that Van had been looking
it over at a fly-in. Carl points out that in the event of a turnover,
He can escape through the door. Other, larger, attendees pointed out
that they could not. Johnny Malone pointed out that his -6 (N126JB)
was the 26th set of plans (20026) and was the 9th -6 to fly.
Overall, the RVs seemed to be excellent designs. However, I was
disapointed that the cowling isn't easier to remove. (I've been
reading Kas "preflight-the-engine-every-time" Thomas' books.)
I was also interested in seeing engine installations.
I realize that six RVs may not be much compared to some of the fly-ins
in other parts of the country, but I thought it was pretty good
here. (The state of Alabama has 1/4 the population of New York CITY.)
The weather kept away at least another five that I heard of. Two
RVs from Tuscaloosa flew up over the top at 8000', but couldn't find
a hole to get to the ground, so went back home. When the planes
were lined up for photographs, and you look at them through a long
camera lens, It looks like the Merced fly-in in Van's video! Anyway,
one must admit that that one -6A sat at a peculiar angle in the
line-up!
Of course, the most exciting part of the day was when I was looking
at Richard Caretti's (His fellow chapter members were calling him
"Daffy." Don't know if I should have gotten into a plane with him
at the controls.) RV-4, and he asked if I had ever flown in an RV before.
I said, "No," and he said, "Well, hop in!" We went 10 feet down
the runway, lifted off, and climbed vertically. (OK, I exagerate
a little.) We made a couple of low, high-speed passes over the
airport, and went a little far away when I asked for a roll. So he
did a couple. That was a blast. (My first rolls) He then demonstrated
the low-speed flying characteristics. He put down the flaps (passenger,
watch your left foot!), and slowed the plane. We assumed a very
node up attitude. He added a little power in the back side of the
power curve AND WE CAME TO A COMPLETE STOP! (OK, I exagerate again.)
I thank Richard for his generosity. He was flying people most
of the day.
What was the result of the day? One VERY frustrated PhD student
who can't start one of these until he graduates in a year
and gets a better-paying job. But I do have an album of photographs
that sits on my desk, and when the dissertation research is not
going well, and I'm tired of working on it, I lean back in my
chair, flip through the photographs, and am motiovated to get
back to work.
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John M. Brown" <jmbrown(at)straw.berry.com> |
Subject: | RV-6 1/4 Scale RC Kits |
We are in the final process of test flying a RC 1/4 Scale RV-6 airplane,
and are wondering what interest there might be for such a kit.
If you are interested in a 1/4 Scale RC RV-6(A) kit please let me know.
We should have an email-able info packet in a couple of weeks. I will
mail this infor packet out to those that send in a request.
Basicly the parts are made of composite materials, to allow a fast build
plane. From the outside it will look and feel like a RV-6(A).
Final powerplant choice will be made in the coming weeks, as we are
playing with several different types, sizes.
For those that would like to see what it looks like, etc. We plan on having
it for show at Oshkosh. More information to follow.......
Again please send email if you, or you know someone who is, interested to:
RV-Kits(at)straw.berry.com
or
jmbrown(at)netcom.com
PS: We are thinking of RV-4's and RV-3's if there is some demand.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Additional Lightening Holes: Followup |
Well, after talking to Van's, I have decided to add at least a few
additional lightening holes to my empannage ribs. I spoke to Bill at Van's
regarding the photographs in the manual (in which the ribs look like swiss
cheese!) and he said that a lot of extra lightening holes were cut out on
the prototype, but omitted from the production kits as being too much
extra work. He basically said go ahead and cut as many as you like, in
fact, you don't even need to bend the stiffener rings, as the empannage
ribs are "non-structural" (his words). I don't know if I would agree
completely with this, I mean if they are non-structural, why not just omit
them completely ? :) I think I will use the HS405s as my pattern, and leave
a good amount of material in between the holes, as well as adding the
stiffener rings for good measure. I'll weigh the removed pieces and figure
out just how much this will help the RV-6 CofG/Baggage situation, and post
the results here.
Curt Reimer
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Scappoose Fly-In - my report |
Yakko, did we talk at the fly-in? Don't know how you knew I counted 38, since
I
don't recall meeting you (not that I WOULD remember everything, BUSY day). I do
remember meeting at least one member of this list. 2 more late arrivals, one
from Sun River OR and one from Eureka CA brought the 'official' count to 40.
Don Goetz dropped-in in his Lancair 4P, 4-bladed prop and all. To say he is
biased towards Lancairs wouldn't be doing it justice. I didn't bother getting
in an argument with him, I was still glowing with good will after our very
enjoyable RV gathering. He did grace us with an extremely high speed fly-by on
his way out. Man that thing can move!
There were some RVs there with RMI units, but I know them from past experience,
you may not have seen them amongst the many. One had the altimeter unit,
another was an RV-4 that had both units.
Glad you got your ride, there were 2 of Van's planes there with Ken Scott and
Bill Benedict giving rides all day. Local -6 builder Dan Delano evidently
didn't want them to have all the fun, as he flew all day and he and Bill were
STILL giving rides at 4:00, 2 hours after everyone else had left.
What a day, we had a ball, served 200+ lunches, blackjack flight gave us a
couple of slick formation fly-bys, including one with 8 F-15 Eagles 'flying
cover', from the local NG base (I'm not telling how I arranged that! :-).
Randall's T-shirts were AWESOME! We will try to post the graphic. We sold-out
the 80 we had in 2 hours, so are going for a reprint.
I missed rolling my -6 out by 1 week, didn't get the fuse painted (because of
the @*%#ing fiberglass)! Did have the wings and stuff on display in my hanger,
at least. Finish painting this saturday...
don wentz
Well, I went to the RV Fly in at Scappoose this weekend. (first time I've
gone there via ground transportation). I got my first sunburn of
the summer.
I also got a really good look at about 38 (Don's count) examples of Van's
product.
It was very interesting to see the little bits that people did differently.
The two things I noticed that varied the most were the wingtip/lighting
treatments and of course, the Panels. I took pictures of some of those.
Interesting that nobody had used the engine monitor I had asked about
a while
ago (The 5" sq. LCD panel with the simulated dials), but a couple of people
spoke highly of the Rocky Mountain Instruments unit, which costs about 1/3th
as much and takes half the panel space.
It was also my first chance to see examples of both good and bad
craftsmanship. There was a -3 there with a beautiful paint job - laid over
terribly rippled wings, the skins held on by round headed rivits.
There were
some immaculate -6As. In a few cases, I could tell which elevator had been
done first. Some people were obviously fast learners.
I also got my first ride in one of the factory planes (the blue -6A). Wow.
160 HP is plenty! What a rush on the take off. (And I'm well above the FAA
standard). Getting to ride in one of these after doing all my training in a
C-150 is like learning to drive in a VW Beetle and then being plopped
down in
the seat of a Jag. Definite building inspiration, and proof that I'll need
some training before I fly mine - way in the future. As I've said,
I'm still
in the saving up to buy a garage to build it in stage. This was
probably the
first time other than a roller coaster I've pulled three Gs. Whee! Time to
work on my Cardio-Vascular fitness. My arms felt dead and my brain
felt like
it was being squashed.
It took a little getting used to to fly it, since even the Taylorcraft
uses a
yoke, and I didn't have much time (Low fuel at the end of a day of flying
Young Eagles). Also, sitting in the right seat, all the instruments I would
want to look at were not where I could look at them easily. Nonetheless, it
was smooth, responsive, and capable. And Fast. Real estate passed
underneath about twice as fast as I was used to.
The negative impression I've got about the 6-A design is seeing just
how much
the gear leg brackets protrude into the cockpit. Ugh. Another point scored
for the -6.
Several of the planes were done but not painted. One, a -6A, was having
trouble starting the engine and a guy over by one of the immaculate
-6As said
"That's what happens when you don't paint your plane, the engine won't
start." This is a factor I was unaware of. :-)
Anyway, it was fun, I got to look at a lot of great planes, and it's only
increased my determination to do this as soon as I can.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Re: Scappoose Fly-In - my report |
> Yakko, did we talk at the fly-in? Don't know how you knew I
> counted 38, since I don't recall meeting you (not that I WOULD remember
> everything, BUSY day). I do remember meeting at least one member of
> this list. 2 more late arrivals, one from Sun River OR and one from
> Eureka CA brought the 'official' count to 40.
Your wife pointed you out to me as the one in the pink baseball cap.
I was the long haired guy with the greek fisherman's cap on, grey t-shirt,
and black jeans.
I asked you how many you had when I saw you walking around with the list of
tail numbers, and I asked you how many of them were on the mailing list.
This weekend I'll be up around Seattle and I plan on checking out that Boeing
surplus store. How can you tell a good rivet gun from a worn out one?
By the way, the quote in my .sig comes from an afternoon cartoon called
Animaniacs. In this one episode the characters go to harass, er, help,
Michaelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel. I like the quote enough that the
full length of it is on my answering machine. It confuses people.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Russellville, AL RV gathering |
Hey John , qty is nice, but I'd say your objectives were covered: at
least 1 of each type, nice folks, A RIDE! Great job on the writeup too.
don wentz
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to come into work this morning and tell the
RV-listers about my experience at the Russellville RV
gathering this past weekend, only to find that I had been
already upstaged by Richard Chandler's account of the Scappoose
fly-in.
Well, here goes anyway:
I was really excited about an RV gathering being here in Alabama.
Although I had determined that an RV-6 was what I wanted to build,
I had never seen a Van's product in person. When I woke up
Saturday morning to a driving rain, I was afraid that it was all
over, but since this was all I had to do last weekend, I went
anyway. All I'd be out would be a tank of gas if no one was there.
Well, once I was north of Birmingham and through the weather
front, the overcast broke up.
I started to become excited when I passed the "Russellville city limit"
sign and turned onto the airport road. I looked up to see a small
fast plane with rectangular wings fly over. My heart started to
pound. I turned into the airport, and started down the gravel lane
leading to the hangars. I could see RV-3s and RV-4s in the shadows
beneath the roofs. Just then, Johnny and Brenda Malone's beautiful
metallic-Burgandy-with-gray-stripes RV-6 taxied out from behind the
building. I almost drove off the road!
There were RVs all over the place! The first thing I noticed about
the RVs is that they sure look good in person! They were fantastic
looking little planes. The pictures in magazines and videos do
these things no justice. I registered, and then spent hours looking
at planes and talking to fliers, builders and other hopefuls like
myself.
There were a total of six RVs there: One RV-3, three RV-4s, one RV-6
and one RV-6A, so there was at least one of each to drool over.
It was interesting to see the little differences between planes.
Like Richard at Scappoose, I was particurly interested in lighting
and panel choices. (There was some discussion here about strobe lights
on the wingtips. The choices seemed to be (1) power supply in
fuselage with HV wires past fuel tanks (dangerous), or (2) Individual power
supplies in the wingtips (heavy). I don't undertand putting the strobes
in the wingtips, when the top of the tail seems to be an adequate place.)
Carl and "Bing" Crausby had a nice door into the baggage compartment
on the side of their -6A. Someone told them that Van had been looking
it over at a fly-in. Carl points out that in the event of a turnover,
He can escape through the door. Other, larger, attendees pointed out
that they could not. Johnny Malone pointed out that his -6 (N126JB)
was the 26th set of plans (20026) and was the 9th -6 to fly.
Overall, the RVs seemed to be excellent designs. However, I was
disapointed that the cowling isn't easier to remove. (I've been
reading Kas "preflight-the-engine-every-time" Thomas' books.)
I was also interested in seeing engine installations.
I realize that six RVs may not be much compared to some of the fly-ins
in other parts of the country, but I thought it was pretty good
here. (The state of Alabama has 1/4 the population of New York CITY.)
The weather kept away at least another five that I heard of. Two
RVs from Tuscaloosa flew up over the top at 8000', but couldn't find
a hole to get to the ground, so went back home. When the planes
were lined up for photographs, and you look at them through a long
camera lens, It looks like the Merced fly-in in Van's video! Anyway,
one must admit that that one -6A sat at a peculiar angle in the
line-up!
Of course, the most exciting part of the day was when I was looking
at Richard Caretti's (His fellow chapter members were calling him
"Daffy." Don't know if I should have gotten into a plane with him
at the controls.) RV-4, and he asked if I had ever flown in an RV before.
I said, "No," and he said, "Well, hop in!" We went 10 feet down
the runway, lifted off, and climbed vertically. (OK, I exagerate
a little.) We made a couple of low, high-speed passes over the
airport, and went a little far away when I asked for a roll. So he
did a couple. That was a blast. (My first rolls) He then demonstrated
the low-speed flying characteristics. He put down the flaps (passenger,
watch your left foot!), and slowed the plane. We assumed a very
node up attitude. He added a little power in the back side of the
power curve AND WE CAME TO A COMPLETE STOP! (OK, I exagerate again.)
I thank Richard for his generosity. He was flying people most
of the day.
What was the result of the day? One VERY frustrated PhD student
who can't start one of these until he graduates in a year
and gets a better-paying job. But I do have an album of photographs
that sits on my desk, and when the dissertation research is not
going well, and I'm tired of working on it, I lean back in my
chair, flip through the photographs, and am motiovated to get
back to work.
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Scappoose Fly-In - my report |
Richard Chandler wrote:
>
> This weekend I'll be up around Seattle and I plan on checking out that Boeing
> surplus store. How can you tell a good rivet gun from a worn out one?
The worn out ones are on the shelf at Boeing Surplus. The good ones are
at Avery Tool supply :-) Seriously though, you may find some good air tools
but don't count on it. You'll probably have better luck with the various
hand tools, bits, bucking bars and that type of thing. Just keep an open
mind -- some of my favorite tools are ones I never knew existed before I saw
em at Boeing surplus and bought em just cause they were cheap.
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (on the tailwheel side of the fence today)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup |
> Well, after talking to Van's, I have decided to add at least a few
>additional lightening holes to my empannage ribs. I spoke to Bill at Van's
>regarding the photographs in the manual (in which the ribs look like swiss
>cheese!) and he said that a lot of extra lightening holes were cut out on
>the prototype, but omitted from the production kits as being too much
>extra work. He basically said go ahead and cut as many as you like, in
>fact, you don't even need to bend the stiffener rings, as the empannage
>ribs are "non-structural" (his words). I don't know if I would agree
>completely with this, I mean if they are non-structural, why not just omit
>them completely ? :)
I left them out of my tail!!
>I think I will use the HS405s as my pattern, and leave
>a good amount of material in between the holes, as well as adding the
>stiffener rings for good measure. I'll weigh the removed pieces and figure
>out just how much this will help the RV-6 CofG/Baggage situation, and post
>the results here.
>
>Curt Reimer
>RV-6
I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again I would NOT
primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should it every corrode in the
next 25 year!!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup |
I can't tell who sends what anymore, what with the way our system chews up
headers, but I think it was Chris Schulte who posted:
>> Well, after talking to Van's, I have decided to add at least a few
>>additional lightening holes to my empannage ribs. I spoke to Bill at Van's
>>regarding the photographs in the manual (in which the ribs look like swiss
>>cheese!) and he said that a lot of extra lightening holes were cut out on
>>the prototype, but omitted from the production kits as being too much
>>extra work. He basically said go ahead and cut as many as you like, in
>>fact, you don't even need to bend the stiffener rings, as the empannage
>>ribs are "non-structural" (his words). I don't know if I would agree
>>completely with this, I mean if they are non-structural, why not just omit
>>them completely ? :)
> I left them out of my tail!!
I assume you mean you left the lightening holes out, not the ribs.
You did mean the lightening holes, didn't you? Please say you meant
the lightening holes?
It looks to me like the ribs might not add anything structurally to
the tail in bending, but they certainly handle compression/tension
loads (read: lift) over the surface. Some of this (probably most)
is carried by the fwd spar, but I'd be concerned about the leading
edge holding it's shape at high speeds or with large elevator
deflections. I'd at least want to see or do some analysis on this
before I took someone's word for it over the phone. Am I overreacting
here?
>I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again
>I would NOT primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should
>it every corrode in the next 25 year!!
I considered this, but primer sure is cheap insurance. I live in a
high humidity (it's 75 deg and 99% humidity now, and it's not even 0730!)
salt-air area, so I'm priming everything. Your environment is something
to consider. Another thing to consider: How easy is it to inspect the
parts you aren't priming? It's not easy to build a new tail if you can't
inspect it and don't find the corrosion until the tail fails in flight.
Dave Hyde
Delaying Proseal until the last minute.
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup |
> I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again I would
NOT
> primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should it every corrode in the
> next 25 year!!
>
>
One interesting thing I learned from the builders at Russellville:
Many did not prime at all, and those who did said that if they
built another, they wouldn't prime. The general line of thought
was, "It'll still be here when I'm gone, so why should I take
more time building instead of flying?"
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Russellville, AL RV gathering |
John Henderson wrote:
> I don't undertand putting the strobes
> in the wingtips, when the top of the tail seems to be an adequate place.)
I'm doing it that way (in the wing tips). The reason is you can buy 3-in one
wingtip lights that include everything you need to satisfy the requirements
for night flight (green or red nav light, strobe light, and white nav light)
in one module, with local power supplies at the wing tips, and just run the
wires for those and the landing lights thru a conduit in the wings and not
have to run any wires out to the tail or mess with the horizontal stabilizer
or rudder fairings or have extra weight back there. Simple but expensive, and
a little heavier, but the weight isn't aft of C.G, and no long high voltage
wires to mess up my radio reception.
> However, I was
> disapointed that the cowling isn't easier to remove. (I've been
> reading Kas "preflight-the-engine-every-time" Thomas' books.)
> I was also interested in seeing engine installations.
I've seen were some folks have used dzus fasteners instead of the normal
hinge arrangement to hold the cowl on. They didn't look bad but obviously
the fasteners are much more visible than the internalized hinge. Worth
looking into I think.
Nice fly-in report John, sounds like it was fun! I live for those things.
Actually, I live for the day I can fly in MYSELF in MY OWN RV.
Randall
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup |
On Fri, 17 Jun 1994 davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil wrote:
> > I left them out of my tail!!
>
> I assume you mean you left the lightening holes out, not the ribs.
> You did mean the lightening holes, didn't you? Please say you meant
> the lightening holes?
>
> It looks to me like the ribs might not add anything structurally to
> the tail in bending, but they certainly handle compression/tension
> loads (read: lift) over the surface. Some of this (probably most)
> is carried by the fwd spar, but I'd be concerned about the leading
> edge holding it's shape at high speeds or with large elevator
> deflections. I'd at least want to see or do some analysis on this
> before I took someone's word for it over the phone. Am I overreacting
> here?
Well, I agree somewhat with this, but if we can't take Van's aircraft word
for something like this, then who's word can we take? Really, I would have
preferred to talk to Van himself about this, but I was happy just to get
through at all!
However, lets analyze this a bit on our own. The photographs of the
prototype in the manual show tail ribs that have had virtually ALL
possible material removed, and no stiffening rings are apparent. I only
removed about half the material that the prototype has, and I plan to add
stiffening rings as well. Lightening holes basically remove material in
the web area of a structural member, while leaving the important parts
(the flanges) intact. Thus, while lightening holes may reduce the weight
by as much as, say, 50%, they would only reduce the STRENGTH by a fraction
of that amount.
If I sound like I know what I am talking about, be assured that I don't!
:). I am a novice when it comes to aircraft structure analysis. However, I
have noticed that just about every picture of a sheet metal aircraft rib
that I have ever seen (cut away views of B-17s etc) reveals lightening
holes. Some composite aircraft, like KR-1s and 2s for example, use
STYROFOAM for the ribs. Surely styrofoam ribs can not be carrying anything
but mild compression loads.
I think the primary purpose of ribs is simply to force the skin to
conform to the proper airfoil shape. Of course they will also help
distribute the lifting loads from the skins to the spars, and stiffen the
structure in tortion somewhat. Any aircraft structural engineers out there
who can clarify this whole thing?
Bottom line: I hope to meet Van the man at least once before I complete
and fly my RV, and I will make sure that what I have done is OK, or else
build a new tail.
If anyone else is considering cutting lightening holes, my advice in any
case would be: Don't Bother. I saved a grand total of two (2) ounces in my
horizontal stab, at a cost of probably 3-4 hours extra work, and less
peace of mind. The benefit is that I will be able to carry a whopping 7
ounces of extra baggage in my baggage compartment!
> >I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again
> >I would NOT primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should
> >it every corrode in the next 25 year!!
>
> I considered this, but primer sure is cheap insurance. I live in a
> high humidity (it's 75 deg and 99% humidity now, and it's not even 0730!)
> salt-air area, so I'm priming everything. Your environment is something
> to consider. Another thing to consider: How easy is it to inspect the
> parts you aren't priming? It's not easy to build a new tail if you can't
> inspect it and don't find the corrosion until the tail fails in flight.
I agree. Even though I live in a fairly dry climate, the airplane could
end up anywhere. I could move, sell it to a coastal dweller, etc. And
corrosion doesn't just happen suddenly every 25 years. It can gradually
weaken the primary structure year by year and once it starts, assuming you
even notice it, then what? Ignore it because it "ain't so bad" or spend $$$
and time with your airplane grounded while you "easily" build another tail?
Whew, that was a long post. Anyone still awake?
Curt Reimer
creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
Subject: | RV-3 Spar/Splice plates |
Hi,
Last night we started drilling the holes through the spars and
splice plates. This is really tense work. I can see why Van does that
in most of the kits. It's going ok but talk about sweating bullets.
It won't be long now until the spar/bulkhead assembly will be complete.
I decided to metalprep and alodine the spar. What's the best
way to use this stuff?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup |
Regarding lightening holes in the empennage: I think Curt is on the right
track. I considered cutting out extra lightening holes in the tail after
hearing Van harp so much on weight savings, and in light of the fact
that I primed the tail (and everything else, having dealt with airframe
corrosion before and not interested in ever doing so again). But back then
I was afeard to go outside the plans. I've since discovered much the
same things that Curt has, namely that there's a lot of opportunity for
saving weight that isn't nevessarily in the plans or instructions,
and that in "real" airplanes they often go a lot farther than what we
do in the typical RV. And Art Chard, who builds Van's prototypes, cuts all
kinds of extra lightening holes as well as tapering stiffener angles, etc.
to save every possible ounce. Which yields a good tip: look closely at
the photos in the manual - they contain a lot of "Art Chard specials"
that aren't in the plans, and I'd be comfortable following his lead.
(Of course there are also things that are obsolete in the photos so
watch out for that). A side note to this: I have a lot of extra 1/2" dia
holes in my wing ribs as a result of the fact that I kept changing my mind
about where I was going to route the wiring conduit. I call em "bonus
lightening holes...."
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (no wimpy nose wheel -- until I change my mind again that is :-) )
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Farewell for awhile.... |
RV-list, tomorrow is the first day of a 9 week vacation for me. We will
be painting the last of my RV-6 parts tomorrow and begin final assembly
Sunday. Hope to have it inspected and first flight within 1-2 weeks.
I'll try to get a modem up and running at home so I can report my progress
to the list, if not Randall can pass it along or something.
Lots of great dialog and info lately gang, keep it up! If all goes well,
I will be flying it to Osh this year, hope to see some of you there.
don wentz, RV-6 N790DW 180hp (July 15, 1994 would be 4 years, appx
2800hrs)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Subject: | Re: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates/spare ribs |
Cheryl Sanchez askes:
>I decided to metalprep and alodine the spar. What's the best
>way to use this stuff?
I made dip tanks out of plastic gutter and end caps. I bought
a 12' length (I think) and cut it into shorter lengths, capping
the end with self-sealing end caps. Worked great, and I was able
to recycle the alodine.
BTW, I also noted that alodine once used will freeze (It got
_cold_ this winter!) but alodine not used (but opened) will
not. At least that's what happened to me.
More on tail ribs: OK, maybe I overreacted, but I still think
the ribs are at least partially responsible for maintaining the
airfoil shape under aero loads. If others have done it, well,
experiments sometimes prove theory wrong. I still like
to hear and/or see some justification for a lot of the mods
homebuilders make other than "it looks about right".
As for having heard it from someone at Van's, yes, that's the
best place to hear it, but my point was I'd like to make sure
the analysis or testing was done rather than just hearing
what _might_have_been_ an off-the-cuff remark over the phone.
Q: Was it _all_ the ribs they were referring to omitting, or
just the center ones, or what? Now I'm curious. (But mine
will stay where they are!)
Dave Hyde, professional skeptic :)
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Cold winter, hot summer. I have to store my Proseal at
work now since it says "Store below 80F'.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Subject: | Re: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates/spare ribs (fwd) |
> From tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com Mon Jun 20 11:48:43 1994
> From: tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates/spare ribs
>
> Cheryl Sanchez askes:
>
> >I decided to metalprep and alodine the spar. What's the best
> >way to use this stuff?
>
> I made dip tanks out of plastic gutter and end caps. I bought
> a 12' length (I think) and cut it into shorter lengths, capping
> the end with self-sealing end caps. Worked great, and I was able
> to recycle the alodine.
>
> BTW, I also noted that alodine once used will freeze (It got
> _cold_ this winter!) but alodine not used (but opened) will
> not. At least that's what happened to me.
>
>
>
STuff ommitted...
>
> Dave Hyde, professional skeptic :)
> davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
> Cold winter, hot summer. I have to store my Proseal at
> work now since it says "Store below 80F'.
>
Another way to make dip tanks, or catch basins. I do this and it's
pretty quick to do.
I use 2x4's make a rectangular box. (Nail it together). Then I use thin
masonite for a bottom. To make it liquidproof I staple, around the perimeter,
blue plastic tarp, then trim the excess away with a knife or scissors.
It's cheap, (good point) and easy. Also I can make a tank to the perfect size
for whatever I want the tank for.
Use 2x10's and I suppose you could make a cooling pond for Hot Builders!!!
Doug Bloomberg
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | The View from Here... |
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting tired of looking at planes
other than an RV on my Windows "Wall Paper" and Screen Saver.
Does anyone have RV related Screens out there? It would be nice to display
RV's when I'm not working on the screen.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | [Enclosed file: rvbmpres] |
>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 12:09:01 PST
>From: James M Wilson <ccm.co.intel.com!James_M_Wilson(at)matronics.com>
>To: ims.com!bobn(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: The View from Here...
>Text item:
>See if this works.
>Mike Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon Jun 20 17:54:24 1994
Subject: RV4.BMP
Thanks for the RV4 BMP. It worked great! This was then first time I
tried our local version of "UUDECODE" and there were no problems.
It's easy on the EYES! Great shot of Van's RV4.
***********************************************************************
>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 16:28:18 -0800
>From: Richard Chandler <claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com>
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: The View from Here...
>One problem. What the heck is .bmp? Why not something standard and
>cross- platform compatable like JPEG or GIF?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
".BMP" or "Bitmapped" is the format Windows uses for its "Wallpaper". It is
also used by some screen savers to randomly paint pictures on an UNUSED
screen.
Thank to Mike Wilson, I now have the picture of Van's white RV4 with the
red and yellow stripes to look at when ever I am not using my PC. When I
get enough pictures, I believe "MicroSoft Screens" software will let me
display them as screen savers.
*************************************************************************
bobn(at)ims.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Re: [Enclosed file: rvbmpres] |
bobn(at)ims.com sez:
> >From: Richard Chandler <claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com>
> >One problem. What the heck is .bmp? Why not something standard
> >and cross- platform compatable like JPEG or GIF?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ".BMP" or "Bitmapped" is the format Windows uses for its "Wallpaper".
> It is also used by some screen savers to randomly paint pictures on
> an UNUSED screen.
Which does me no good. :-( Here I sit with a Macintosh Quadra 800, 2 16"
monitors with 24-bit color cards, and I can't look at the picture.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | Re: RV-Bitmaps... |
>--------------
>
> There are a number of rv-bitmaps of various kinds still on matronics.com
> via anonymous ftp in /pub/rv_stuff/bitmaps. Feel free to add to the
> collection.
>
> Matt
>-------------
>------------
> Matt,
>
> Is it alright to put pictures directly in rv-stuff, or does it need
> to go into incoming until reviewed?
>
> John Henderson
> Auburn University
>--------------
Yes, certainly put them right into rv_stuff/bitmaps.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
Subject: | Re: [Enclosed file: rvbmpres] |
Text item: Text_1
WOW!....
I've recently moved off the main frame and SUN workstation platforms
and gone 100% PC. Since I changed jobs and that's there taste!
Anyway, I don't have any display software outside of windows .BMP so
it works for me!
What I was surprised about was the fact that my email tool (cc:MAIL
for Windows V2.0) automatically displayed the RV-4 picture when I
clicked on the Icon included in the mail description/header!! I did
not uudecode or do anything to the file.
How did you send the .BMP file???
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Sealing Fuel Lines |
How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use
teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings?
What is the netwisdom on this?
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | The light at the end of the tunnel |
I flew out to Scappoose yesterday and stopped by Don Wentz's hangar, and
guess what he had in there -- an AIRPLANE! A real, honest to goodness,
RV-6 with wings, a tail, canopy, flaps, ailerons, motor, and everything!
Don's on vacation (7 weeks - the bum), and is determined to fly it
within a couple of weeks. Looks to me like he'll make it. It's all
painted and put together, and it's BEAUTIFUL. He's done a very good job on
it. His paint job is really nice, and though I've been able to see
what good workmanship he does as his project has progressed, it's still a
thrill to see how well the finished product is turning out. Don showed me what
he described as his "experimental one piece cowl", and I almost bought it --
until I saw that he'd located one of the two full length fuselage paint
stripes so the edge came out right on the cowl joint line, which effectively
hides the joint completely. The cowl itself is superbly finished -- very smooth
around the air scoop. The nicest touch is the forward canopy fairing.
He had a friend do the work there, and the fairing is feathered out down to
the aluminum so well that there's no discernable joint -- better than any
I've seen so far. (I've gotta get that friend's name....)
Don's currently wrapping up all the little details (attaching fairings,
fittings, etc.) in preparation for weighing it. He conned me into picking up
the scales at Van's and driving them out there for him at lunchtime today.
Which I gladly agreed to, since it gives me a chance to stop by his garage
which is just full of jigs and tools that he won't be needing for a while, if
ever.... you get the idea.
Don told me he might try to get a modem hooked up at home so he can get
re-connected to the rv-list while on vacation, but as he told me, he's "kind
of busy with other things right now", so until that happens I'll try to keep
you all updated on his pending first flight.
Last night I helped him apply the stainless steel tape to the flap leading
edges. A tricky job to get it right, but it came out really well. So for
anyone who might be so fortunate as to be approaching that point, here's the
method Don came up with to apply the tape straight and without wrinkles:
We installed the flaps on the wings, marked the wing skin line with the flaps
up, then marked a straight line 1/16" forward from there the full length of
the flap. Then we cut the tape to length, laid it out face down on a table,
and used a utility knife to score ONLY the backing material the full length
about 3/4" back from the edge. Pulled off the 3/4" of backing material, ran
the flaps down, _carefully_ tacked down the center of the tape on the flap at
the line, held the ends away from the flap and adjusted them so they'd come
down on the line, and pressed the tape down to the flap from the center out
towards the ends. After smoothing out and pressing it firmly on, we detached
the flap control rod, dropped the flap down to where the leading edge popped
out from under the wing skin, peeled off the rest of the backing material, and
progressively pressed the tape down the full length, moving towards the leading
edge about 1/4" at a time. Came out smooth as glass. A couple of things to
watch out for here: First, the tape, being steel, is very susceptible to
bending and stretching. Handle it carefully and cut it with sharp scissors or
shears, otherwise you'll crease it and the creases will show. Also, wash
hands before using, and be careful not to touch the exposed adhesive -- any
fingerprints greatly reduce the stickyness of the adhesive.
Sure is nice to see that it really is possible to finish this project -- I
went home and immersed myself in my pitifully less complete RV. Sigh.....
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Sealing Fuel Lines |
From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use
> teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings?
I've seen mechanics us "Fuel Lube." Any opinions?
Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR (fuse languishing in an uncompleted state)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Subject: | Re: Sealing Fuel Lines |
>
> > How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use
> > teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings?
>
> I've seen mechanics us "Fuel Lube." Any opinions?
>
> Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR (fuse languishing in an uncompleted state)
>
Howdy Earl
Sounds like you are getting close. Good deal...
________________________________________________________________________________
Vetterman's RV-4 has been flying since 85, he has fuel lubed All the
fuel line fittings when built and still doesn't leak.
Fuel lube is Excellent for coating the cork gaskets for the fuel tank
inspection cover also. It doesn't harden and is not affected by
gasoline either aviation or auto...
God but expensive stuff, Get Randall to pay for part of it, yes
you should let him use some too...
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Subject: | Re[2]: The View from Here... |
Its the standard graphics format used in Windows, Windows is a product
invented by a tiny American company called Microsoft :-). Its big out
here in the colonies!!
John
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: The View from Here...
Date: 20/6/94 4:28 PM
One problem. What the heck is .bmp? Why not something standard and cross-
platform compatable like JPEG or GIF?
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Re: Re[2]: The View from Here... |
> Its the standard graphics format used in Windows, Windows is
> a product invented by a tiny American company called
> Microsoft :-). Its big out here in the colonies!!
Ah, Windows is a Hack. It's a skyscraper built on a wood foundation.
GIF (Graphics Interchange Format) was created by CompuServe as a graphics
standard independent of any computer type, so that users of anything from a
Commodore 64 to an IBM, Apple, Amiga, Mac, Unix workstation, X-Windows
machine, SparcStation, or whatever could display the same file. It's a 256
(or less) color table, run length encoded (compressed) bitmap with 24 bit
color definitions. It's really good for computer generated pictures, which
have large areas of the same color. It's not as good for scanned pictures.
JPEG was created as another universal picture standard, designed to display
scanned pictures of real images, and to provide for better compression. It
supports 24bit pixels and has compression optimized for the fact that
adjacent pixels will not have the same color. Which screws up computer
generated pictures, by the way, and means they can get away with losing data
if you crank the compression factor way up. Again, you can display it on any
computer with the proper software, not just machines enslaved to Mr. Gates.
I prefer my standards to be set by people who don't have a proprietary
interest in their development. And you'll notice that jpeg and gif are the
two formats used in the pictures groups in usenet news. ('sides, Randall
already sent me a .jpeg version of the file) :-)
Now then, I'm worried that these huge binaries are being filed in Matt's
archive folder and bloating it. Matt, you can at least clear out my non-rv
posts from that archive. And could you please fix those two bogus addresses
on the list that keep bouncing mail back at me?
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Sealing Fuel Lines |
How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use
teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings?
What is the netwisdom on this?
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
OK I give up - what is Fuel Lube and where do I get it? Auto Parts store?
Richard Bibb
-Ready to paint the interior so I can start permanently installing stuff!!!
RV-4 N144KT
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
To Matt Dralle
Thanks for the tip on matronics.com! If I get any other graphics files
of RV's I'll send them along.
The ".tif" files I ftp'd from roxanne don't seem to work however. I've
tried to view them on a Paint program I have, Corel Draw, and a small
shareware viewer. I also tried to convert them to PCX, but no luck.
Corel Draw gave me a message that the .tif file wasn't at least "5.0". Are
these in some strange version of tif?
***************************************************************************
To all
I have had great success at "Back riveting" my top wing skin on the right
wing. The left wing will be done this weekend. I have developed my own
technique that makes it almost foolproof and very easy. Every rivet is
smooth and absolutely flush to the surface. It does require a special
rivet set and bucking bar assembly, but they weren't too difficult to make.
(some machining or elbow grease required) If anyone is interested, I'd be
glad to share it on the mailing list.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Richard Bibb inquires:
> OK I give up - what is Fuel Lube and where do I get it? Auto Parts store?
I don't know about auto parts stores but I think I saw it in the
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty catalog.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg) |
Howdy,
Fuel Lube, where else if Van and Avery don't have it.
All together now, "Aircraft Spruce!"
look in the index, it's shown there.
It's expensive. ~$17 for a can that will last Boeing a year, not to mention
all the RV builders in your area.
Doug Bloomberg
>
> OK I give up - what is Fuel Lube and where do I get it? Auto Parts store?
>
> Richard Bibb
> -Ready to paint the interior so I can start permanently installing stuff!!!
>
> RV-4 N144KT
>
> Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
> Federal Program Manager
> Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
> FORE Systems
> 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
> Bethesda, MD 20817
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Re[2]: The View from Here... |
>> Its the standard graphics format used in Windows, Windows is
>> a product invented by a tiny American company called
>> Microsoft :-). Its big out here in the colonies!!
>
>Ah, Windows is a Hack. It's a skyscraper built on a wood foundation.
[etc. etc. long dissertation on graphics formats deleted]
A request: keep the religious OS discussions off the RV-list.... please?
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> From ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com Fri Jun 24 10:18:06 1994
> Subject: Re: Fuel Lube
> To: fore.com!rbibb(at)matronics.com (Richard Bibb)
> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 09:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Earl Brabandt" <ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com>
> I don't know about auto parts stores but I think I saw it in the
> Aircraft Spruce and Specialty catalog.
>
> Earl
Ok I found it pg. 210. The catalog sez: "Fuelube - Lubricant for fiel and oil
line valves, especially for aromatic and high-octane fuels. Also suitable as
gasket paste. Good as anti-seize for threads. Will not gum or dry out".
1 lb can #09-2530 $17.85
Also available is "Sealube - Anti-seize sealer for threaded aluminum alloy
parts exposed to gasoline, oil, water, air or vacum. Good lubricating
qualities. Will not harden or set. Will not freeze joints at low
temperatures. Non-corrosive, insoluble in gasoline, oil or water."
1 lb can #09-25200 $13.65
The number at Aircraft Spruce is 800-824-1930
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
> To Matt Dralle
>
> Thanks for the tip on matronics.com! If I get any other graphics files
> of RV's I'll send them along.
>
> The ".tif" files I ftp'd from roxanne don't seem to work however. I've
> tried to view them on a Paint program I have, Corel Draw, and a small
> shareware viewer. I also tried to convert them to PCX, but no luck.
> Corel Draw gave me a message that the .tif file wasn't at least "5.0". Are
> these in some strange version of tif?
>
> ...
>
>--------------
It sounds like you didn't use the "Binary" type transfer under FTP.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Too Close to the Edge... |
I guess I have kind of gone over this subject before, but the first time I
just ordered new parts. This time I just want to fix the problem according
to "acceptable practice"
So what does everyone else do when they inadvertantly drill a hole less
than 2D from the edge of a part? Adding an extra rivet or two to make up
for the lost strength is not a problem, but should I leave the bad hole
unfilled? I recall someone saying here that if the distance is less than
2D the edge will eventually fatigue and split if it is riveted. This would
indicate that a bad hole is best left unfilled, but who wants an ugly
extra hole in their skin? Perhaps a rivet which is only partially bucked,
just to fill the hole, would be ok, or perhaps a glued-in rivet?
The part in question is the flange on my HS603s where the skin rivets on.
I tried to get the rivet holes away from the HS409 flanges, in order that
I could get a squeezer on them, but inevitably a couple of holes are not
within the 2D limit.
Note that the tone of this letter is much calmer than the last one I
posted on this subject. I have graduted from "Oh my goodness - I've
misdrilled a hole - I'd better order new everything!" to "Hmm... what's
the best way to fix this?" (I am NOT about to build a new HS at this point!)
My current plan is to drill a couple of extra rivets on either side of the
bad one and then lightly buck a rivet into the bad hole just to fill it up
while not putting too much stress on the weak edge of the metal.
It's funny, but none of my aircraft sheet metal books say what to do IF
you drill a hole too close - they just say don't drill it too close. I
suppose this must mean that the only acceptable practice is to replace an
entire Boeing 747 wing skin when the assembly line worker misdrills a
hole - yeah right.
Curt Reimer
creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
Curt Reimer reminded me of my own work. I am realizing that perfection in
RV construction is similar to my ability to get "organized". I keep trying
but like the proverbial butterfly it is elusive. I guess this is where
those years of experience in metal construction that most of us don't have
comes into play. No matter how far I look ahead I still seem to have the
ability to not think about everything that should have been considered.
What do you do if a rivet comes out on a rib flange crease? Answer (I
use): Keep going and make the best of it....it probably will not be the
worst mistake I make on this project. Just try to keep the little mistakes
from adding up to big mistakes.
- Randy
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: | : Randy S. McCallister :
: _________________|_________________ ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: \ | | / : :
: `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 :
: /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 :
:RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu :
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
I have also come to the conclusion that I cannot build a perfect
airplane. Nevertheless, I am comfortable in having learned that I can
build a nice airplane that will be structurally sound, fly well and
look nice. Those who build the show stoppers either have a lot of
experience or go a loooong way to cover up all their mistakes. Once
I accepted the concept of imperfection I started to relax a whole lot
more. What's the fun if you are constantly sweating doing each job?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Too Close to the Edge... |
Curt Reimer sez:
>
> I guess I have kind of gone over this subject before, but the first time I
> just ordered new parts. This time I just want to fix the problem according
> to "acceptable practice"
Can't speak to "acceptable practice", I'm still looking for that book.
> So what does everyone else do when they inadvertantly drill a hole less
> than 2D from the edge of a part? Adding an extra rivet or two to make up
> for the lost strength is not a problem, but should I leave the bad hole
> unfilled? I recall someone saying here that if the distance is less than
> 2D the edge will eventually fatigue and split if it is riveted. This would
> indicate that a bad hole is best left unfilled, but who wants an ugly
> extra hole in their skin? Perhaps a rivet which is only partially bucked,
> just to fill the hole, would be ok, or perhaps a glued-in rivet?
Use a pop-rivet. They fill the hole without producing as much stress on
the surrounding metal as solid rivets. If it were me and there was just one
or two rivets I'd forget any extra rivets, or just put one extra on one side
or the other. Also note there are standards for _minimum_ distance between
rivets -- 3/8" I think for 3/32" rivets, so watch that when adding extras.
>
> The part in question is the flange on my HS603s where the skin rivets on.
> I tried to get the rivet holes away from the HS409 flanges, in order that
> I could get a squeezer on them, but inevitably a couple of holes are not
> within the 2D limit.
Don't feel bad, seems like I'm always talking to someone who did that.
On the rivets that were adjacent to the strips I drilled close to the strips
machine-countersunk those rivets instead of dimpling and only had to build
one HS :-) -- I think that should be in the plans since so many people drill
either too close (or IN to) the strips or to the edge -- there just isn't
enough room there.
Randall
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Too Close to the Edge... |
Hi RV riveters,
I looked up the the minimum edge distances for rivets,
and found that it is NOT 2D in some circumstances, in particular for the
smaller size rivets we use.
For countersunk flush rivets, the edge distance is 'slightly over'
2D on the VISIBLE skin side, and 'slightly under' on the NONE VISIBLE side.
Dimpled holes have the 'slightly over' number for both sides, and
protruding head rivets use the 'slightly under' number for both sides.
The numbers are ---- (All measurements are referenced to the rivet center)
EDGE DISTANCE
Rivet Slightly Slightly 2 D
size smaller larger reference
3/32 0.156 0.219 0.188
1/8 0.219 0.281 0.250
3/16 0.344 0.375 0.375
RIVET SPACING MINIMUMS
Rivet Dimpled Machine Universal
size countersunk countersunk head
3/32 0.563 0.438 0.375
1/8 0.625 0.531 0.500
3/16 0.750 0.750 0.688
I believe the differences for the types of countersinking are
probably concerned with edge effects of the machining/dimpling operations.
IN CONCLUSION ..... if you machine countersink the rivets on the HS spar,
you are allowed a smaller edge margin on the spar flange (only 5/32 inch
instead of 3/16 inch). This may be a good reason to machine countersink
instead of dimpling in tight, tricky spots. When I built my HS spar, I
think I lucked out and had a spar with slightly oversize flanges.
DON'T REWORK UNTIL YOU CHECK THE ABOVE DIMENSIONS!!
happy pounding ..... Gil Alexander RV6A, #20701 - fuselage bulkheads
>Curt Reimer sez:
>>
>> I guess I have kind of gone over this subject before, but the first time I
>> just ordered new parts. This time I just want to fix the problem according
>> to "acceptable practice"
>
>Can't speak to "acceptable practice", I'm still looking for that book.
>
>> So what does everyone else do when they inadvertantly drill a hole less
>> than 2D from the edge of a part? Adding an extra rivet or two to make up
>> for the lost strength is not a problem, but should I leave the bad hole
>> unfilled? I recall someone saying here that if the distance is less than
>> 2D the edge will eventually fatigue and split if it is riveted. This would
>> indicate that a bad hole is best left unfilled, but who wants an ugly
>> extra hole in their skin? Perhaps a rivet which is only partially bucked,
>> just to fill the hole, would be ok, or perhaps a glued-in rivet?
>
>Use a pop-rivet. They fill the hole without producing as much stress on
>the surrounding metal as solid rivets. If it were me and there was just one
>or two rivets I'd forget any extra rivets, or just put one extra on one side
>or the other. Also note there are standards for _minimum_ distance between
>rivets -- 3/8" I think for 3/32" rivets, so watch that when adding extras.
>
>>
>> The part in question is the flange on my HS603s where the skin rivets on.
>> I tried to get the rivet holes away from the HS409 flanges, in order that
>> I could get a squeezer on them, but inevitably a couple of holes are not
>> within the 2D limit.
>
>Don't feel bad, seems like I'm always talking to someone who did that.
>On the rivets that were adjacent to the strips I drilled close to the strips
>machine-countersunk those rivets instead of dimpling and only had to build
>one HS :-) -- I think that should be in the plans since so many people drill
>either too close (or IN to) the strips or to the edge -- there just isn't
>enough room there.
>
>Randall
>RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)ch2m1.attmail.com |
Subject: | Nose vs. Tail, again! |
Pardon the ignorance and inexperience, but...
I just did my first landings and takeoffs in a C172 on grass. Man
is it a pain to keep the nosewheel up!
The Van's video mentions that the -6A mains were placed very
close to the CG to make grass field operations easier by reducing
the weight on the nose and allowing earlier rotation, etc.
Does it work? Or is the -6A still a lot more work than the -4/6 to taxi
and take off of grass?
Steve Kimura
RV-wanna-be
CH2M Hill
Corvallis OR
skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com> |
Subject: | Re: The light at the end of |
Reply to: RE>The light at the end of the
Gang.... Doug here...
Just got off the phone with Donski.... We passed the FAA boyz and girls!
we are chompin at the bit to fly now... will fill ya in on that after we get
wheels up!
--------------------------------------
Date: 6/23/94 11:12 AM
From: Randall Henderson
I flew out to Scappoose yesterday and stopped by Don Wentz's hangar, and
guess what he had in there -- an AIRPLANE! A real, honest to goodness,
RV-6 with wings, a tail, canopy, flaps, ailerons, motor, and everything!
Don's on vacation (7 weeks - the bum), and is determined to fly it
within a couple of weeks. Looks to me like he'll make it. It's all
painted and put together, and it's BEAUTIFUL. He's done a very good job on
it. His paint job is really nice, and though I've been able to see
what good workmanship he does as his project has progressed, it's still a
thrill to see how well the finished product is turning out. Don showed me
what
he described as his "experimental one piece cowl", and I almost bought it --
until I saw that he'd located one of the two full length fuselage paint
stripes so the edge came out right on the cowl joint line, which effectively
hides the joint completely. The cowl itself is superbly finished -- very
smooth
around the air scoop. The nicest touch is the forward canopy fairing.
He had a friend do the work there, and the fairing is feathered out down to
the aluminum so well that there's no discernable joint -- better than any
I've seen so far. (I've gotta get that friend's name....)
Don's currently wrapping up all the little details (attaching fairings,
fittings, etc.) in preparation for weighing it. He conned me into picking up
the scales at Van's and driving them out there for him at lunchtime today.
Which I gladly agreed to, since it gives me a chance to stop by his garage
which is just full of jigs and tools that he won't be needing for a while, if
ever.... you get the idea.
Don told me he might try to get a modem hooked up at home so he can get
re-connected to the rv-list while on vacation, but as he told me, he's "kind
of busy with other things right now", so until that happens I'll try to keep
you all updated on his pending first flight.
Last night I helped him apply the stainless steel tape to the flap leading
edges. A tricky job to get it right, but it came out really well. So for
anyone who might be so fortunate as to be approaching that point, here's the
method Don came up with to apply the tape straight and without wrinkles:
We installed the flaps on the wings, marked the wing skin line with the flaps
up, then marked a straight line 1/16" forward from there the full length of
the flap. Then we cut the tape to length, laid it out face down on a table,
and used a utility knife to score ONLY the backing material the full length
about 3/4" back from the edge. Pulled off the 3/4" of backing material, ran
the flaps down, _carefully_ tacked down the center of the tape on the flap at
the line, held the ends away from the flap and adjusted them so they'd come
down on the line, and pressed the tape down to the flap from the center out
towards the ends. After smoothing out and pressing it firmly on, we detached
the flap control rod, dropped the flap down to where the leading edge popped
out from under the wing skin, peeled off the rest of the backing material,
and
progressively pressed the tape down the full length, moving towards the
leading
edge about 1/4" at a time. Came out smooth as glass. A couple of things to
watch out for here: First, the tape, being steel, is very susceptible to
bending and stretching. Handle it carefully and cut it with sharp scissors or
shears, otherwise you'll crease it and the creases will show. Also, wash
hands before using, and be careful not to touch the exposed adhesive -- any
fingerprints greatly reduce the stickyness of the adhesive.
Sure is nice to see that it really is possible to finish this project -- I
went home and immersed myself in my pitifully less complete RV. Sigh.....
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvdz.cv.hp.com> |
Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail, again! |
> Pardon the ignorance and inexperience, but...
>
> I just did my first landings and takeoffs in a C172 on grass. Man
> is it a pain to keep the nosewheel up!
>
> The Van's video mentions that the -6A mains were placed very
> close to the CG to make grass field operations easier by reducing
> the weight on the nose and allowing earlier rotation, etc.
>
> Does it work? Or is the -6A still a lot more work than the -4/6 to taxi
> and take off of grass?
>
> Steve Kimura
Steve:
I haven't yet flown an RV, but I do have some 172 time. And since I
never leave home without an opinion... It seems to me that an RV would
be lighter in pitch for two additional reasons.
1) The 172 is a pitch heavy aircraft.
2) The 172 is taller, the engine is mounted higher above the ground and
will impart a larger pitch-down force at high power settings due to
the longer lever arm. The extra drag of the grass makes this more
noticable.
The height of the grass and firmness of the ground make a *lot* of
difference.
Where didja go?
--
Randy Stockberger
randys(at)cv.hp.com
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Too Close to the Edge... |
RV riveters,
As a follow up for further clarification, the specification
picture was for an overlap as shown below:
VISIBLE SIDE
| A |
_____
====================\ /=====
+++++| |++++++++++++++++++++++++
| B |
In this case, for a machine countersink, A is the 'slightly over'
dimension, and B is the slightly under dimension.
As is standard practise, and unless specifically stated by the
designer, the flush head is on the visible surface.
For the HS spar, this would be:
VISIBLE SIDE
| A |
_____
====================\ /============
+++++| |+++++
+
+ | B |
+
+
==== represents the 0.032 skin
++++ represents the HS spar
NOTE: the B dimension is allowed to be smaller than 2D because it is NOT
countersunk. If both are dimpled, then the 'slightly over' dimension
applies as in the original message. Dimension A is not an edge distance
concern in this HS spar application.
...... my first attempt at ASCII drafting!!! ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
>On 28 Jun 1994, Gil Alexander wrote:
>
>> For countersunk flush rivets, the edge distance is 'slightly over'
>> 2D on the VISIBLE skin side, and 'slightly under' on the NONE VISIBLE side.
>> Dimpled holes have the 'slightly over' number for both sides, and
>> protruding head rivets use the 'slightly under' number for both sides.
>
>I don't quite understand this. If the hole is drilled straight and the
>edge of the metal is sheared straight, won't the distance from the center
>of the hole to the edge be the same for both the visible (flush) side and
>the non-visible (shop head) side? Or am I misinterpreting this?
>
>Assuming I am still too close, I will just lightly buck it and add a
>couple of extra rivets 1/2 " on either side. If the bad hole ever cracks,
>it will be in an inspectable place and will essentially already be stop
>drilled anyway.
>
>Thanks for the info guys.
>
>Curt Reimer
>RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Hey, rv-listers!
Just came back into Auburn (AL) last night, returning from
my trip to the Northwest. I got to visit the Van's plant,
and "help" Don assemble his -6 on Friday and Saturday. I'm
sorry that I couldn't get back in time to post his progress
before FAA inspection, but glad that he passed!
Will compose a slightly more detailed message of my adventures
later.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
We interrupt this mindless babble for an important announcement:
*** Don Wentz is doing taxi tests as of this very moment!!! ***
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
I just had a completely heretical idea.
After hearing about everybody's difficulties in building and sealing fuel
tanks, and reading about how other planes do it, has anyone considered making
fuel tanks (or any other components, like the tail) out of composites?
Hey, stay back with those pitchforks!
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Heretical idea |
I think that there is a 12 step program for your problem. For more info,
call (503)647-5117. Ask for "Van"
Chris
----- Begin Included Message -----
I just had a completely heretical idea.
After hearing about everybody's difficulties in building and sealing fuel
tanks, and reading about how other planes do it, has anyone considered making
fuel tanks (or any other components, like the tail) out of composites?
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Re: Heretical idea |
>
> I just had a completely heretical idea.
>
> After hearing about everybody's difficulties in building and sealing fuel
> tanks, and reading about how other planes do it, has anyone considered making
> fuel tanks (or any other components, like the tail) out of composites?
Heretical? I should say! Maybe if Van can't help, perhaps the
Betty Ford clinic can help him out. (Of course, Richard, you
realize that we are just kidding with you.)
I think perhaps the key word here is "weight." Anyone ever notice
that the smaller Glasair has an empty weight comparable to
the gross weight of an RV-6?
The fuel tanks might not be such a bad idea -- they're located
near CG. I don't know what a composite tail would do to CG,
though.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail, again! |
>--------------
>
> Pardon the ignorance and inexperience, but...
>
> I just did my first landings and takeoffs in a C172 on grass. Man
> is it a pain to keep the nosewheel up!
>
> The Van's video mentions that the -6A mains were placed very
> close to the CG to make grass field operations easier by reducing
> the weight on the nose and allowing earlier rotation, etc.
>
> Does it work? Or is the -6A still a lot more work than the -4/6 to taxi
> and take off of grass?
>
> Steve Kimura
> RV-wanna-be
> CH2M Hill
> Corvallis OR
> skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
>
>--------------
Well, I think you anwsered your own question - fly with a tailwheel airplane!
:-) :-)
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | RV Useful Load (was:Heretical Idea) |
The Glasair empty is as heavy as a loaded RV? Wow. So does a fixed
trigear Glasair with the same engine/prop really cruise faster than an
RV-6A in spite of hundreds of extra pounds?
On the subject of weight, I am trying to determine if it would be
reasonable to get my CofA with a higher than 1600 lb all up weight for my
RV-6. If the RV-6 is stressed for +/- 6 Gs at aerobatic weight, my
calculations show that it ought to still surpass the Utility G-limits at
max gross and could easily gross more than the recommended 1600 lbs if you
stuck to the Normal category G-limits. The fact that Van recently
increased the gross weight to 1800 lbs for the RV-6 float modification
would seem to confirm this.
Now being in Canada, I am ultimately insterested in the Canadian regs,
naturally. But what is the story in the U.S.? These are known as
experimental aircraft, after all, so are we allowed to experiment with the
all up weight?
I suspect that C of G might be the limiting factor, but it would be nice
to have a few extra pounds of payload, perhaps in an external baggage pod?
(I'm trying to think of a way to carry my skis & poles with me)
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Re: Heretical idea |
Chris Ruble sez:
> I think that there is a 12 step program for your problem. For
> more info, call (503)647-5117. Ask for "Van"
Heh, I'm already working on the first step, saving up to buy a garage to
build it in. Heck, I had half the price of the whole -6 airframe saved up
until April 15th came around. Now I'm starting from scratch.
I was just working on the mistaken premise that a structure like the fuel
tank could be built quickly and easily out of composites, and NO Pro-Seal.
Someone had posted something on r.a.homebuilt about fuel-proof epoxy. How
about gluing the aluminum together? (Just the internal ribs in the tank). Is
there a way of doing that that would support the loads?
Oh, I never reported on what I found at the Boeing Surplus Store. It's a
very strange place, because there are obviously some items you have to be
there when the door opens to catch (I saw someone walking out with a
Macintosh SE, but the table where the computers were was empty by 10:00) and
there are other things that will be there when the sun burns out, like a HUGE
pile of broken HP Pen Plotters.
There is a LOT of raw material that has been stored outside. Bring a
micrometer to measure the thicknesses of sheets, because it didn't seem to be
marked. I found a pile of solid aluminum blocks about the size of
cinderblocks. It gives you a real impression of how light a material
Aluminum is when you're used to iron stage counterweights.
There was an electric motor the size of a V-8 engine block, huge industrial
process machines of no discernable function with $15,000 price tags written
on the side with marker. There was a safe that would make a wonderful gun
vault, except I couldn't close the door.
Hundreds of office chairs and computer desks. Spools of wire. 1" diamter
plastic tubing. Indecipherable bits, strange crimping tools.
There was a seperate section with drill bits and cutting tools, many of them
still coated with a plastic compound to protect the sharp edges. If you ever
need a bit that will cut a 1.5542334" hole in hardened steel, you can find
one, but have fun fitting it into your chuck. There were plenty of more
normal bits as well.
There were some STRANGE air tools that looked like props from Star Wars.
Some were marked as Nut Plate drills. There were a few rivet guns, but they
had a different air fitting from everything else, so they didn't fit the hose
that they provide.
If I give the impression that there's a lot of unusual junk that most people
would never need, it's true. But it's fascinating to paw around through it.
There is a lot of normal stuff too, office supplies, bolts of fabric,
industrial thread spools. But you can't reliably find things there like you
would at a hardware store. Don wanted me to find some washers, but I
couldn't see them anywhere. This is one of those places you have to go to a
lot to catch as catch can.
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | Glasair weight vs. RV-6 |
I must confess that I was in error when I compared the empty weight
of a glasair (1650#) to the gross weight of an RV-6. The glasair
that I was recalling was a III, with 6-cylinder engine and retractable
gear. The weight of a more comparable Super II TD is ONLY 1300#
empty.
John H. Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
Hi everybody,
First question: I am on the home stretch on my main wing spar
and bulkhead assembly. I am planning to metalprep/alodine/prime all
the spar parts. Only reading the directions for my primer it says
NOT to prime over alodined parts! The primer is Sherwin-Williams
product that is referenced in the plans. From the recent notes
apparently the people at DuPont say that using Veriprime over the
alodined parts provides better corrosion protection. The way I see it
I have three choices: 1) just use the primer, 2) use the metalprep,
alodine and primer in spite of the instructions, and 3) get some
DuPont Veriprime and use all three. Any thoughts?
Second question: There are a lot of parts to the spar with
all the vertical stiffners, etc. Before I prime them each part is
cleaned and this removes all the marking. With all the parts it
would be nice to have each one marked so I know where it will go.
Is it ok to mark the parts after cleaning and just before priming?
Will the permanent marker cause corrosion to start at that point?
I have heard that pencil marks on metal can cause corrosion. This
is one of those silly issues that I have been worrying about ever
since I started the project.
Thanks.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Ok all you weenies who aren't even close to flying their RVs yet
(including me) -- DON WENTZ FLEW HIS AIRPLANE!
Mike Seager made the first flight with Ken Scott flying chase. Alas, I wasn't
there to witness, (I was over at HIO waiting for a mechanic to start the
annual inspection on our Citabria), but I was listening on the radio, and
got to experience it vicariously.
After the first flight Don went up with Mike in the right seat for about 15 mins
or so, but then had to bring it back because they discovered some problems that
put it on the ground till they get fixed (large crack at a weak point in the
lower cowl, too rich idle mixture, oil light permanently on).
Don says he expects it to be back in the air, and hopefully he'll solo it,
tomorrow.
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (far from being done)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Subject: | RV Useful Load (was:Heretical Idea) |
Heeheehee...Curt brings up an interesting point about useful load.
> The Glasair empty is as heavy as a loaded RV? Wow. So does a fixed
>trigear Glasair with the same engine/prop really cruise faster than an
>RV-6A in spite of hundreds of extra pounds?
Good question, I don't know, but I'd bet that a well built Glasair
has less drag to offset the higher gross weight. I'm not sure, but
they look pretty slick to me.
>On the subject of weight, I am trying to determine if it would be
>reasonable to get my CofA with a higher than 1600 lb all up weight for my
>RV-6. If the RV-6 is stressed for +/- 6 Gs at aerobatic weight, my
>calculations show that it ought to still surpass the Utility G-limits at
>max gross and could easily gross more than the recommended 1600 lbs if you
>stuck to the Normal category G-limits. The fact that Van recently
>increased the gross weight to 1800 lbs for the RV-6 float modification
>would seem to confirm this.
I asked Van what drove him to the gross weight limits he specifies, since
they're different for the -4 and -6 with little change in load bearing
structure. He kind of smiled and said it was sort of arbitrary, based on how
much the prototypes weighed and what you could stuff in them (volume, not
weight). He gave me the impression that these weights weren't absolute limits
(or 80% of ultimate under gust loads, or whatever), but that they were the
highest weights they tested. He said that there were other RV's operating at
(somewhat) higher max gross weights, but didn't get into specifics. I don't
think he was advocating doing it, only saying that it had been done
successfully, and that there might be some logic behind it. So why an I
willing to take his word here when I recommended against it over the tail rib
omission thing? Well, I'm not (but will be looking into it further), I'm just
presenting what he and I talked about. I think, however, that it's easier to
relate a gross weight increase to previous data for a strength/load
distribution comparison than it is to relate data with structural mods. At
any rate I'll probably stick with 1500 lb as my max gross unless the $100
hamburgers become too frequent.
>I suspect that C of G might be the limiting factor, but it would be nice
>to have a few extra pounds of payload, perhaps in an external baggage pod?
>(I'm trying to think of a way to carry my skis & poles with me)
DROP TANKS! (next, an in-flight refueling probe, then the tailhook!)
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | The light at the end of the tunnel |
Thanks for all the nice comments Randall. This posting was on 6/23.
As of 6/30, it FLIES!!!!!!!!
I had local RV pilot Mike Seager do the honors (he will be
flying one of Van's demonstrators back to Osh again this
year), while I rode along in formation in Van's RV-6A (Ken
Scott driving). To see my creation take-off and fly, then
grease-on for a near perfect landing was truly fulfilling!
No, I didn't do the 1st flight, and I'm glad. It was too
emotional and exciting and I enjoyed it much more watching
it up close.
Today, 7/2, I soloed-it finally after some repairs. It was
grounded after 1st flight by what else, fiberglass failures!
Today went well and after another cowl-off inspection I
went-up for some loose formation with an RV-4 to check
airspeed readings and, well, just fly it! Tomorrow morning
(after what will certainly be a limited sleep night), I will
be opening the hangar to MY RV that is ready to roll-out,
pre-flight, and take-off in, still a difficult concept to
get used-to.
Some quick numbers off the top of my head:
empty weight - 1048 lbs. (no fuel, full interior, etc.)
CG - 70.6" aft of datum
stall clean - 62mph
full flaps - 58mph (both stalls power-off, 3/4 fuel, 410
lbs. of pilots)
The last few weeks have been a total blur, trying to get it
ready, but we made it from paint shop (my garage) to flying
in 10 days. Thanks to a lot of drop-in help from the likes
of Mike Wilson, John Henderson (all the way from Alabama),
Doug Minor, Randall, and more. Mike stops-in almost every
day to check-up on me and I usually get him to help do
something. I felt bad today when I had to jump-in alone and
leave him there while we took off, but I still have 35 hours
to go.
I want to just go around to all the local airports and show
it off, but I need to knuckle-down to some sort of test
program. Main goal is to try and fly-off the hours next
week and fly up to the EAA West Coast Fly-in at Arlington
WA. We'll see.
Still lots of cosmetic and interior stuff to do, but those
will come, main thing is to keep it flying!
As for the fuel lube, my friendly local A/P gave me a
thimble-full of it, which was 10 times more than what I
needed. It works well tho, 0 fuel leaks (we also used it on
oil lines).
Don Wentz
-----------------------------
I flew out to Scappoose yesterday and stopped by Don Wentz's hangar, and
guess what he had in there -- an AIRPLANE! A real, honest to goodness,
RV-6 with wings, a tail, canopy, flaps, ailerons, motor, and everything!
Don's on vacation (7 weeks - the bum), and is determined to fly it
within a couple of weeks. Looks to me like he'll make it. It's all
painted and put together, and it's BEAUTIFUL. He's done a very good job on
it. His paint job is really nice, and though I've been able to see
what good workmanship he does as his project has progressed, it's still a
thrill to see how well the finished product is turning out. Don showed
me what
he described as his "experimental one piece cowl", and I almost bought it --
until I saw that he'd located one of the two full length fuselage paint
stripes so the edge came out right on the cowl joint line, which effectively
hides the joint completely. The cowl itself is superbly finished
-- very smooth
around the air scoop. The nicest touch is the forward canopy fairing.
He had a friend do the work there, and the fairing is feathered out down to
the aluminum so well that there's no discernable joint -- better than any
I've seen so far. (I've gotta get that friend's name....)
Don's currently wrapping up all the little details (attaching fairings,
fittings, etc.) in preparation for weighing it. He conned me into picking up
the scales at Van's and driving them out there for him at lunchtime today.
Which I gladly agreed to, since it gives me a chance to stop by his garage
which is just full of jigs and tools that he won't be needing for a while, if
ever.... you get the idea.
Don told me he might try to get a modem hooked up at home so he can get
re-connected to the rv-list while on vacation, but as he told me, he's "kind
of busy with other things right now", so until that happens I'll try to keep
you all updated on his pending first flight.
Last night I helped him apply the stainless steel tape to the flap leading
edges. A tricky job to get it right, but it came out really well. So for
anyone who might be so fortunate as to be approaching that point, here's the
method Don came up with to apply the tape straight and without wrinkles:
We installed the flaps on the wings, marked the wing skin line with the flaps
up, then marked a straight line 1/16" forward from there the full length of
the flap. Then we cut the tape to length, laid it out face down on a table,
and used a utility knife to score ONLY the backing material the full length
about 3/4" back from the edge. Pulled off the 3/4" of backing material, ran
the flaps down, _carefully_ tacked down the center of the tape on
the flap at
the line, held the ends away from the flap and adjusted them so they'd come
down on the line, and pressed the tape down to the flap from the center out
towards the ends. After smoothing out and pressing it firmly on, we detached
the flap control rod, dropped the flap down to where the leading edge popped
out from under the wing skin, peeled off the rest of the backing
material, and
progressively pressed the tape down the full length, moving towards
the leading
edge about 1/4" at a time. Came out smooth as glass. A couple of things to
watch out for here: First, the tape, being steel, is very susceptible to
bending and stretching. Handle it carefully and cut it with sharp scissors or
shears, otherwise you'll crease it and the creases will show. Also, wash
hands before using, and be careful not to touch the exposed adhesive -- any
fingerprints greatly reduce the stickyness of the adhesive.
Sure is nice to see that it really is possible to finish this project -- I
went home and immersed myself in my pitifully less complete RV. Sigh.....
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Has anyone used the new cheaper HVLP spray setups (such as Campbell
Hausfield) for painting RVs? What experiences has anyone had with HVLP in
general?
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Demo Rides at OSH? |
I will be making my first pilgrimage to OSHKOSH this year and I suppose
that Van's will have a booth and an airplane or two there. Can a person get
a demonstration ride or are they generally too busy/no flying
allowed/airshows in progress, etc?
Rudder in progress. I noticed in the Empannage Construction Video that
their rudder stiffeners stopped about 3/4" short of the trailing edge,
whereas the plans call for the stiffeners to extend to within 3/16" of the
trailing edge. I have trimmed mine back to about 1/4" from the edge, in
order to have a little extra room when I go to make the final bend. ANyone
have any thoughts on this?
Curt Reimer
creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca
RV 6 #23490
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Demo Rides at OSH? |
Curt Reimer sez:
> I will be making my first pilgrimage to OSHKOSH this year and I suppose
> that Van's will have a booth and an airplane or two there. Can a person get
> a demonstration ride or are they generally too busy/no flying
> allowed/airshows in progress, etc?
Van's does give demo rides to pilots at OSH. Van, Bill, Tom and Lisa will be
there as well as others. They'll have at least two airplanes (be prepared
for a surprise or two there). There'll be a sign-up sheet, first come first
served, so sign up early!
> Rudder in progress. I noticed in the Empannage Construction Video that
> their rudder stiffeners stopped about 3/4" short of the trailing edge,
> whereas the plans call for the stiffeners to extend to within 3/16" of the
> trailing edge. I have trimmed mine back to about 1/4" from the edge, in
> order to have a little extra room when I go to make the final bend. ANyone
> have any thoughts on this?
I believe the original plans called for a small (3/16" or so) space there
but they were finding the tight bend against the stiffener with a rivet close
to the trailing edge hole caused too much stress and resulted in cracking,
so they pulled it back to 3/4" or so. Then some builder came up with the idea
of moving the end rivet back and using RTV in place of an end rivet, which
bonds it while while minimizing the stress, so they went back to the original
length. I don't know why the Orndorfs did it the way they did, everyone has
their own mods for whatever reason, but my feeling is that Van must think
it's preferable to have the stiffener extend as close as possible to the
trailing edge, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the RTV business.
Try to use something other than acetic acid based RTV though, there's
some concern about corrosiveness. I have more info on that but it's been
hashed over on the RV-list before, let me know if you missed it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu> |
Howdy,
Anyone going to OSHKOSH this year?
How about setting up a meeting time and place? I would be fun to
put a face to a name.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
ps... Kendall Square Research has decided to down size. I was caught
in their little thing. So now I have the summer to build while
looking for meaningful work.
my new email address is dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | The rv-list(at)matronics.com is Fixed! |
As a couple of you pointed out(!), the rv-list has been bit sick lately. As
usual, I changed a few things a couple of weeks back to make everything
work "better" and well, the rest is history! I have corrected the
mis-configurations, and the list should be working as normal again. Let's
get those discussions going again!
There's been some really interesting stuff on the list lately. Keep up
the good work!
Matt Dralle
RV-4 Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | Newest Member's Bio... |
--- Forwarded mail from Rion Bourgeois <71311.2116(at)CompuServe.COM>
From: Rion Bourgeois <71311.2116(at)CompuServe.COM>
Subject: bio
Thanx for the welcome. Sorry I'm so late getting back to you, but I'm
a neophyte Internetter, and am having trouble uploading complete files
drafted on Wordperfect 6 then uploaded through Crosstalk, or drafted on
Crosstalk and uploaded to Compuserve. Only about a screen's worth gets
transmitted. Status of RV-4 project: empennage done, wngs 50% done.
Assembled my own spar, plan fishing rod carriers in wings, and turtledeck
fuselage (one such flying in this area [HIO/ PDX], and another almost done.
Heard about RV-List froDon Wentz and Randall Henderson. The former is editor
of Portland RVator newsletter, whose RV-6 is today ready to fly, and latter
is a partner in my 1965 Champion 7ECA and building an RV-6 Have been
lurking on AVSIG on Compuserve, but not much tecnical talk there: mostly
chit-chat and motivati
Don printed an article in our newsletter from RV-List about compatibility
of Van's fuel guage sender units with dual guage from another supplier, which
if very timely for me since I am about to start my tanks.
Thanx for the service.
Tion Bourgeois
--- End of forwarded message from Rion Bourgeois <71311.2116(at)CompuServe.COM>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Reply to One Question: Two questions |
>Cheryl Sanchez asks:-
*** stuff deleted ***
> Second question: There are a lot of parts to the spar with
>all the vertical stiffners, etc. Before I prime them each part is
>cleaned and this removes all the marking. With all the parts it
>would be nice to have each one marked so I know where it will go.
>Is it ok to mark the parts after cleaning and just before priming?
>Will the permanent marker cause corrosion to start at that point?
>I have heard that pencil marks on metal can cause corrosion. This
>is one of those silly issues that I have been worrying about ever
>since I started the project.
Cheryl,
I had the same questions when I did my spar. I followed the
pictures in Bingelis' early articles and hung all the parts from wires to
prime them. Of course this did not help with identical looking parts, so I
started attaching paper labels to the wires ..... what a pain!!
I then looked closer at the construction photos in the RV6 manual,
and found that all of the parts shown had been stamped with ID numbers. I
bought a set of 1/8 inch letter and number stamps (about $30 at the local
hardware store), and have been using them ever since.
I write my numbering system on my plans, and then stamp all of the
parts as I select them for their correct placement ... as an example, all
of the main wing ribs are marked L1 to L14 and R1 to R14 as ID numbers.
Once they are marked, priming is a non-event in the ID of parts, and no
long term corrosion worries. I use my Avery back riveting plate as a base
to stamp the parts on.
To get the least stress on the parts, the stamping should be done
in the center of large, flat areas too prevent edge stress problems.
Try it, it's the only way to go. A Dremel tool with a marking bit
could also be used, but I find the number/letter stamps (or should they be
called punches?) easier to use, and neater looking.
happy marking ...... Gil Alexander, RV6A #20701
P.S. I just bought a set of number & letter 1/8 inch stamps for an
English RV builder on sale from Harbor Freight in Camarillo CA for about $9
... they are probably not the hardest, but are fine for stamping aluminium
parts.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
Hi Folks,
I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca,
....aahhh...., Oshkosh
this year. I would be nice to see each other face to face. If nothing
else, we should try and
get together at Van's banquet.
John Perrin and I will be there from the 26th of July through (probably) the
2nd of August.
Later
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
RV-List
----------
From: Doug Bloomberg
Subject: OSHKOSH
Date: Monday, July 11, 1994 4:31PM
Howdy,
Anyone going to OSHKOSH this year?
How about setting up a meeting time and place? I would be fun to
put a face to a name.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
------------------
Count me in ! I'll be there from the 26th through the 2nd or 3rd.
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ERNST(at)UIPHYA.PHYSICS.UIUC.EDU |
I'll be making my first pilgrimage to Oshkosh this year, and will be there
from Thursday (28th?) through Satuday (30th?). I'm staying at least long
enough to catch Van's RV-6/A talk at 1pm on Saturday. Are there any other
RV or sheet metal oriented talks or workshops that I shouldn't miss? This
trip should give me the chance to put faces with names, and (hopefully) to
pick up some reasonably priced tools (I'm starting the tail on my -6A in
September).
Rick.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dybdal1(at)llnl.gov (Kym Dybdal) |
Oh oh. I thought it was going to be August 26 thru August 28. Could
someone confirm the date? Thanks!
>Hi Folks,
>
>I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca,
>....aahhh...., Oshkosh
>this year. I would be nice to see each other face to face. If nothing
>else, we should try and
>get together at Van's banquet.
>
>John Perrin and I will be there from the 26th of July through (probably) the
>2nd of August.
>
>Later
>
>Mark
>
>************************************************************************
>* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
>* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
>* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
>* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
>************************************************************************
>* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
>* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
>************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
>I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca,
>....aahhh...., Oshkosh
I hope to fly there in my new -6 and stay thru saturday. Pick a place
and time (when is the banquet?).
Here are some articles from this month's Portland RVators newsletter
for your reading enjoyment.
don wentz (14 days old, 25.1hrs)
SCAPPOOSE (or, How the Black Jack Squadron Washes RVs)
(by Greg Rainwater in the Puget Sound RVator)
The morning of June 11th saw us sitting in the restaurant at Arlington
airport w ondering what to do. We had planned on attending the
Scappoose Oregon RV fly-in but, at around 9:30 AM, drizzle had begun
to fall. With high ceilings and a fo recast of improve-ment, we
decided to go.
A three ship formation take off from runway 16 and a straight-out
departure to t he south into light rain soon had us on course. Our
flight consisted of my son Chad and myself along with Wes Schireman
and Dick Bently in a 3 ship formation. John McCornack and his wife
Julie followed close behind.
Our first stop was Lake Washington, Marty Foy was unable to attend due
to family commitments. We, of course, felt obligated to "rub it in"
with a few formation passes over his house on our way south. Marty
was obviously afraid of a little rainwater (play on words? -- ed) as
he was nowhere to be seen. I guess he was hiding inside where it was
dry. Water dripped off my VSI as we turned southeast for clearer
skies. Near Renton the rain stopped and the clouds began to break up
as we headed into Pierce County's Thun Field.
Our stop at Thun Field had been planned to coincide with the local EAA
chapter p ancake breakfast. We were not disappointed. After a nice
visit with the friend ly folks there (and a full load of pancakes!)
we departed single file for a joi n-up and a fly by. From there it
was south again to Scappoose.
The weather got warmer as we got further south. It turned out to be a
great fli ght. We found it to be surprisingly smooth considering the
small weather front moving through the area. After a few formation
passes we landed to join the oth er RV's at the field (what happened
to the landing judges this year?) (I think they got sun-burned-out
last year -- ed.)
I counted approximately 37 RVs in attendance, give or take a few that
were alway s coming and going and giving rides. The hospitality was
great this year, as al ways. Good food, friendly people, warm weather
and lots of RV talk. Everywhere you looked you could see people
crawling over, around and under planes to get i deas and help. A big
thank you to the Portland RVators for another great fly-in !
After departure and a few more formation passes we turned north and
handed the l ead over to Wes for the flight home. We made sure we
were pointed at Arlington before giving Wes the lead. You know how
these Senior Airline Captains are when they don't have a co-pilot to
point the way!
The flight home was up the west side of the Puget Sound and was
gorgeous. The r ain up north had stopped as predicted and we all had
a great time and lots of f un. Scappoose gets better every year. If
you haven't made it yet, make it a "m ust do" for next year.
(Thanks Greg for all the kind words, we appreciate them. This was the
smoothest event yet for us also. We hope you know how much we enjoy
the Black Jack fly b ys. Definite crowd pleasers! Nothing wild, just
a smooth, clean display of gre at pilots in great airplanes. Thanks
for coming!
By the way, how did you arrange to have 2 flights of 4 each F-15s fly
over preci sely as you were doing your departing circuits? I told
everyone I did it, but I don't think they bought it! dw)
Scappoose By Gretchen Lankow - 12 years old Saturday, June 11th, we
flipped hamburgers at the Scappoose Airport. It was fun . I met some
new people. They were all nice. It was a neat experience for me
because I felt good about helping out and it was neat looking and
learning about all the planes. I've never been that close to an
airstrip and all those planes . I learned a lot of stuff I didn't
know. Even though I didn't go flying I had fun.
(Gretchen was one of the kids from our church youth group who helped
cook and se rve at our fly-in. Hers was a sad tale: She had brought
a girlfriend along & w hen Gretchen's parents found-out that the
friend couldn't go for a young eagles ride without her parent's
signature, they decided it wouldn't be fair for Gretch en to go and
her friend not. TALK ABOUT A DISAPPOINTED KID! She stomped up and
down for awhile fighting back the tears, so I promised her a longer
ride when m y -6 is done. It's nice to see that she still had enough
fun to write us a note anyway). PS - I met a lot of nice people too!
dw.
Arlington
Don Wentz
I just got back today and since I didn't have the
nltr done, figured I better pu t in some words about it.
Who says all FAA folks are bad guys? After putting 12.5 hrs on my new
RV-6 (in 5 days), including giving it a mini-annual on a rainy July
4th, I stopped in at the FSDO last Wednesday and requested my
inspector to give me a waiver to allow me to fly to Arlington for the
big West Coast EAA fly-in. After careful review of my aircraft log
book and maintenance records, he said OK and 1/2 hour later t he
papers were in my hands.
That afternoon and the next day I built the total hours to 18.2 and
got the fuel injection mixture adjusted to where it was working great.
Friday morning Andy Hanna and Rion Bourgios landed at Scappoose to
fill-up and so I could "fly wing" for the trip north. We took-off in
formation and by Kelso had climbed to 10,50 0 feet to overfly some
clouds and the Class B at Seattle/Tacoma. The view was a wesome and
we settled in to a leisurely cruise, indicating about 190mph grnd spe
ed on the Loran. My prop is a little fat and I was indicating only
2100 rpm, 18 .5 inches.
I had added firewall and floor insulation the night before and during
initial cl imb I was thinking "gee, the engine sure is running smoooth
today". I finally r ealized that it just seemed smoother because the
soundproofing was working SO we ll.
The flight was flawless, the engine purred the whole way, and I just
tagged alon g and let them do the navigating. At Everett we began a
not so long descent fro m 10,500 with Arlington in sight. I pulled
the power back and nosed down, pushi ng the airspeed well into the
yellow arc for the first time. The air was still smooth so it was
comfy, and we kind of swooped down into the area. Things were going
fine with no real traffic problems as we bled our speed in a big swing
to the northeast, with traffic using 34. As we were swinging around
for a 45 entry into downwind, we began to get an idea of the amount of
traffic we would have. While Andy called our entry to the tower, a
V-tail Bonanza made a hard 180 to c ut right in front of us in the
downwind, making us #6 in the pattern. It wasn't ever close, it just
caught them off-guard. To his credit, the V-tail made his approach
very short so ours remained pretty normal.
Since I wasn't burdened with radio and pattern as much, I was able
listen and wa tch and to really enjoy the whole scene, just being sure
to maintain altitude an d separation with my leader, which was
slightly more difficult turning base and final since I was on the
inside (and this was definitely NOT a tight formation ( (). The worst
problem I had was when Andy flattened his CS prop on final. I su
ddenly found myself blasting out ahead of him. Some quick dropping of
anchors ( OK, throttle and flaps) got me back to him and we made a
nice landing more or le ss side by side.
One of the best moments for me was as we taxied down that last stretch
with peop le lining the sides watching us taxi in. At that moment, I
realized that I was at my FIRST fly-in in the RV that I had
built!!!!!! You gotta experience that t hrill!
I shut down and climbed-out, but didn't really come down to earth
until about th e time I went to sleep that night. It was great fun
pal-ing around with members of our group that were there like Mike
Wilson and his family, who were camped-o ut for the duration. We
watched the airshow with Norm and Donna Rainey, in the shade of their
mansion of a tent. It was so big you could harldly see their RV- 6A
(good advertisment for the -6 baggage capability). Rion and I had
dinner coo ked by "Brent the Gourmet Camper Ohlgren", complete with
wine and chicken and th e whole deal. I hardly looked at any other
planes, mostly visited with people a bout my new (9 days old) RV and
stumbled around in something of an excitement/fa tigue induced stupor.
The evening ended with some visiting with the Springers a nd Jim
Anglin, & Andy and I talking by a large bonfire with some other nice
EAA folks.
Rion & I actually slept-in (I shared my tent with him & will attest
that he does n't snore) until about 8, even with airplanes and hot air
balloons and all sorts of stuff taking off all over the place. A nice
hot shower and some breakfast w oke us up and we got ready to head for
home. I was going to stay for the Puget Sound RVators annual airshow
picnic for RVers Saturday afternoon and leave after that. But I got
to thinking that if I left early with Steve Harris (in Ken's - 6 with
Rion in the right seat) I could spend a little time with Janet whom I
hav e totally neglected during the last month of "gotta get it done
and the time flo wn off" as well as miss that post-airshow melee,
which looked pretty hairy the n ight before. As I was packing the
plane (when travelling solo the -6 has a TON of room for your stuff) I
kept running into folks we know from all the RV/EAA gr oups around the
northwest, but Steve needed to get back so we left.
It took about 15 minutes before we finally were rolling on 34, with a
Fairchild 24 still making his turn off the runway in front of us and a
low-wing retractabl e rolling past us in the grass on the right after
the tower told him to move ove r to the grass or go-around. Once
airborne and climbing, I saw Steve beginning a slow left turn right
into the Black Jack flight of 3 on a fly-by. I quickly r ecommended
he stay straight for awhile, they passed on our left, we turned and b
ack they came in a big sweeping turn. I slowed my climb and after
bouncing thru their wake, we settled into a normal climb out of the
area. (By the way, those BJ guys look even neater when you're up
there in the air with them. As we left the area I listened-in to some
practise they were doing out of the Arlington ar ea. They sound very
professional and careful in their approach to formation fly ing).
It was another beautiful, smooth flight home, al-though somewhat
slower since St eve didn't want to push Ken's -6 without the wheel
pants on it. My new baby per formed flawlessly throughout, & I am one
happy, proud new papa. Oh yes, when I was renting the Taylorcraft, I
once made a round trip from HIO to Albany, OR, th at took 3hrs 10
mins. This trip, from the engine start at my hangar to taxi for fuel,
until the time I shut down at the Antique club-house back at
Scappoose, took 3 hours time on the hobbs!
I also calculated the fuel burn today, 18.8 gals/3.1hrs = 6.0 gph!
Not bad for an O-360.
YES!!!!!!!
-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
RV-List
Kym, I think that you're thinking of Van's Flyin/BBQ which *is* Aug 26-28.
Matt
>--------------
> Oh oh. I thought it was going to be August 26 thru August 28. Could
> someone confirm the date? Thanks!
>
>
>
> >Hi Folks,
> >
> >I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca,
> >....aahhh...., Oshkosh
> >this year. I would be nice to see each other face to face. If nothing
> >else, we should try and
> >get together at Van's banquet.
> >
> >John Perrin and I will be there from the 26th of July through (probably) the
> >2nd of August.
> >
> >Later
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >************************************************************************
> >* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
> >* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
> >* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
> >* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
> >************************************************************************
> >* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
> >* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
> >************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
>--------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | Van's RV Flyin... |
Hi all,
I just heard that the Van's RV Flyin has a new date of September 2-4. The
Spring RVator stated that it was going to be August 26-26 but I guess they
moved it. Hope you hadn't already made plans for it - like I had...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mor374(at)ccmgw.its.csiro.au |
Subject: | Hello RV-List are you still there???????? |
Hi all,
I haven't seen any RV mail for the last few days - are you still
there?????
John Morrissey
John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Firewall Cutout/Box Report |
Dear Readers:
Those of you just starting the fuselage or earlier may have noticed
and/or heard about cutting a hole in the firewall and adding a box in
its place to allow room for a constant-speed prop governor and engine
oil filter. To recap, the way the basic kit comes the firewall is flat
and you can leave it like that if you never plan to use a constant-speed
prop and you will buy a remote mount for the oil filter.
Van's has recently made it very easy to add this cutout, so you might as
well do it. For less than $7.00 you can get a piece of metal already
cut out, ready to bend and mount. It will take you about two hours for
the whole thing; the only hard part is cutting the hole in the firewall.
There is a catch. Van made the bend lines for the firewall box width to
the same dimension as the space between the stiffeners on the firewall
(8 inches). That means if you build both to the plans there is only
about a 1% chance the box will fit between the stiffeners. You need to
bend the box so that it is only about 7 3/4" wide at the open end. This
does not require any cutting, just relocating the bend lines. I will be
tearing mine up and rebending it tonight.
And you wonder why I decided to write up my own instructions.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
If you've read the latest RVator you know about the RV-6B
prototype Van's has been working on. I've been snooping around the
shop for some time now wondering what this new beast was all about,
but not wanting to say anything to anyone except other "local snoops",
since Van and employees have been (understandably) pretty tight-lipped
about it. But since they've now announced it I figure the cover's off.
Yesterday I got the word that they were going to fly it and went
out there to watch, but by the time they were done getting it all
ready to go it was 1:00 or so and 100 degrees so they postponed it
till this AM. So I headed out there before work today, and by 9:30 or
so they were still trying to diagnose a high oil pressure reading,
and I had to get to work, so I left. I've been listening on the
handheld and can now report that the RV-6B flew, with Van at the
controls, and Bill Benedict flying chase in the RV-6A, about 45 minutes
ago. From what I could hear there were no problems.
They've been scrambling to get it done before OSH, and barring any
complications it looks like it'll be there, so if you attend, you'll
probably get a chance to look it over.
I plan to post a longer "report" (un-official) later on.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Firewall Cutout/Box Report |
>
> There is a catch. Van made the bend lines for the firewall box width to
> the same dimension as the space between the stiffeners on the firewall
> (8 inches). That means if you build both to the plans there is only
> about a 1% chance the box will fit between the stiffeners. You need to
> bend the box so that it is only about 7 3/4" wide at the open end. This
> does not require any cutting, just relocating the bend lines. I will be
> tearing mine up and rebending it tonight.
>
> And you wonder why I decided to write up my own instructions.
>
> FKJ
>
Hi Frank!
I actually made the box and cut the firewall several months ago but only
installed it last week. I kinda say it was going to be a tight fit, so
I allowed for it in the box-bending stage. It ended up fitting very
nicely, but snug. And it looks exactly like a toilet paper holder (the
type that is recessed in the wall); I'm tempted to hang a roll for kicks
and use it to wipe up oil stains. Anyway, the problems I encountered were
two-fold (remember, this is for a RV6A):
1. The Overhead Rudder Pedals
The box rivets to the firewall angles right where the overhead
rudder-pedal support attaches.
Solution: Easy; drill right through the box (ie. rivet ->
rudder-support--> angle --> box.
2. I added extra supports that go from the bottom of my panel to
the firewall, and guess where they terminate; right at the
box.
Solution: Same as above.
Sidenote: These supports were used since I've mounted my engine
controls on the lower panel; felt it needed a bit more rigidity.
Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing)
and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. Also, the
instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8,
so that's what I used.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Firewall Cutout/Box Report |
> Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing)
> and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. Also, the
> instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8,
> so that's what I used.
>
>
>
> Gary B
Any thoughts on whether pro-seal is best for the firewall? It seems to me
that hi-temp RTV or other heat resistant sealant might be preferable there.
I'm not being critical, I know it's not unusal to use pro-seal, in fact
I now remember when I was helping Don Wentz rivet his recess in we used
it (and I'm STILL trying to get it off my fingers ;-)
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | micrometers/calipers |
Anybody use a micrometer or calipers? Dumb question, I know, but I don't
have either, never used em. I'm thinking one or both might be awfully
useful. I have a catalog that lists digital calipers and micrometers.
The digital calipers in my catalog are $121 for a 4" and $136 for a 6".
I wonder how much for a good non-digital? And do they show in 64ths or
32nds or are they all in decimal like the digital ones? Of the people who
currently own/use a micrometer and/or calipers, which do you think is more
useful?
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
I never did write about my trip to the northwest, but Randall's
message about the RV-6B encouraged me to go ahead and mention it.
I went to Seattle during the last week in June for the IEEE Antenna
and Propagation Society and URSI Radio Science Joint Symposia.
The conference had an Everett Boeing plant (747/767/777) tour
planned, but conveniently scheduled my presentation at the same time.
Thanks to the info given to me by several rv-listers, I went
to Everett on Wednesday, arriving at 7:30 for the 9:00 tour, according
to the instructions that said that the tours usually fill
1--2 hours ahead of time. Not only did I get into the 9:00 tour,
but the tour guides said it was the lightest crowd all summer, and
the week before, some people who arrived at 7:30 didn't get on
a tour until 1! The best part, however, was that the #1 777 took
off on its second flight while we were waiting in line next to the
airfield. It was reminiscent of a shuttle flight. Employees
in stands cheered as it took off. It was supposed to fly on Sunday...
then Monday, etc., but they waited until I was there to witness it.
Since my trip was paid for through the weekend to take advantage
of lower air fares, I spent a few days in Oregon. On Friday,
I went to the Van's plant. As I was warned, I was not overwhelmed
with the plain, sheet-metal (what else?) building. I was shown
around the building (Sorry I forget the name of the guy who showed
me.) and got to see what some unassembled RV parts looked and felt
like.
I then drove out to Sunset strip to Van's "engineering" facility
where Andy gave me a ride in the -6A. I really wanted a ride
in the -6, but was told that they hadn't flown it in about a year.
The view was incredible. It was a beautiful day. You could
see Mt. Hood, Mt. St. Helens, Mt. Adams and Mt. Rainier all at
once. Andy let me have the stick, and I, with no flight experience,
made perfectly coordinated turns! (OK, actually a testament to the
design.)
Back at the farm,..er...engineering facility, I looked over the
"-6B" under construction and snapped a few pictures. Other than
the spring steel landing gear and counter-balanced rudder mentioned
in the RVator, I found the solid machined spar to be most interesting.
Oh -- I did notice the gear legs poking the back of the legs in
the -6A. The spring steel gear probably alleviates this somewhat.
I then had a good time talking to Steve, who is a mechanical engineer
who does the computer drafting and is SLOWLY converting all the
plans to CAD.
We were told that Van was going to fly over escorting a B-17, so I
waited about 30 minutes (and made sure that Steve got no work done.)
I snapped half a roll of film when the B-17 and RV-4 passed over.
(I'd like the smoke oil injector option in my RV-6, please!) Someone
then pointed out there was a B-24 with them just out of view.
Van, with Ken in back, then landed at Sunset. I mailed copies of
all of my photos to Van's. Maybe they'll print one in the next
RVator.
Don Wentz told me to call when I got there. Everywhere I tried
calling from the night before was long distance, so after leaving
Van's (with my RV-6 T-shirt souvenier) I went straight to Scappoose
hoping that Don would be easy to find. I found the airport and
was discouraged at the number of hangars, but when I pulled in the
gate, an RV-6 on scales was visible inside an open hangar. I went
over to Don and Carl Batcher and asked if one of them was Don.
It's funny how you picture people on the Internet. I thought that
Carl (60ish) was Don! Don looks about 20 (but claims to be more.)
I then spent the rest of Friday and most of Saturday "helping" Don
assemble his plane. This was my first opportunity to actually
apply tools to an aircraft and I'm very thankful to Don for letting
me have this experience. I installed about a thousand screws. After
a while I got the hang of it and didn't ruin too many more heads.
He took advantage of my being an electrical engineer and had me
put the comm antenna on and install the battery in the ELT remote
panel. That last job was more difficult than it appeared. I didn't
know that the screws holding in the remote unit had bolts on them
until I heard the bolt go 'tink' into some unknown nook behind the
panel. I must have spent an hour laying on my back with my head under
the panel until Don came and looked, and with about a 6-man effort,
found the bolt and retrieved it.
I was probably almost as excited as Don to hear that his plane flew.
It was a blast to know that I helped on it a little.
I'm supposed to have a set of RV-6 plans on order.
John H. Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Firewall Cutout/Box Report |
>Any thoughts on whether pro-seal is best for the firewall? It seems to me
>that hi-temp RTV or other heat resistant sealant might be preferable there.
How about a mixture of muffler repair compound, Pro-Seal, and foil tape? That
would really hold up good. Your fingers would heal nicely from the cuts from the
tape because you would not even be able to burn the stuff off your fingers.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Subject: | Re: Firewall Cutout/Box Report |
>
> > Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing)
> > and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. Also, the
> > instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8,
> > so that's what I used.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary B
>
> Any thoughts on whether pro-seal is best for the firewall? It seems to me
> that hi-temp RTV or other heat resistant sealant might be preferable there.
>
> I'm not being critical, I know it's not unusal to use pro-seal, in fact
> I now remember when I was helping Don Wentz rivet his recess in we used
> it (and I'm STILL trying to get it off my fingers ;-)
>
>
> Randall
>
>
Good point about the hi-temp suitability. However, I used Proseal for the
day-to-day carbon-monoxide blockage from the engine fumes. The snug-fit of
the box and the riveting would seem to be necessary protection from a fire.
I am also in the process of attaching all the fiberglass tips and cowling
hinges with Proseal (in addition to the rivets and fiberglassing, of course),
so the Proseal was available. I also recall a mention in the RVator (several
years ago) concerning some firewall sealing on an RV4 using Proseal.
After the fuel tanks, I vowed I would never use it again.
But it must have some addictive properties, as I find myself using is here
and there. What I do use now is the hand-cream that I use for fiberglass
work (that is, to protect me from the toxic resins). I generously apply the
hand-cream, especially under my nails and rub it into my knuckles. This
seem to really cut down on the smelly-black finger syndrome. After I'm
done, I use some acetone to get the rest of my fingers (and hair, and nose,
and elbow, and tools, etc...).
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Firewall Cutout/Box Report |
> 1. The Overhead Rudder Pedals
> The box rivets to the firewall angles right where the overhead
> rudder-pedal support attaches.
Gary:
Now that you have brought it up, should I be making a stay-out zone on the
stiffeners for this during the initial firewall construction? That is, might
rivets you have already put in get in the way of the rudder pedal support
mounting?
>Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing)
>and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on.
I noticed Van did not mention this in his instruction sheet for the box but all
the local builders are doing it. This would block any fuel or oil from getting
into the cockpit in case of disaster, at least for the time it would take to get
back on the ground. I will put this in the instructions. If ProSeal is not
handy a good structural epoxy would also work since it is not continuously
exposed to noxious elements.
>Also, the
>instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8,
>so that's what I used.
I noticed that. 3/32 would be strong enough, but you are not likely to have any
universal head rivets of that size around. That means dimpling. It is quicker to
just use your 1/8 rivets. If you do that make sure you don't put rivets in the
sides near the open end of the box where they will hit the vertical stiffeners
on the firewall and compound the original problem (box too wide).
There John. You wanted traffic?
Frank J.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: micrometers/calipers |
>Anybody use a micrometer or calipers?
Have both. Never use micrometer, constantly using caliper. I bought several
plastic ones for about $3.00 each several years ago and find them plenty
accurate enough and they help a lot in building the RV.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Rudder Dimensions |
I am in the middle of rudder building and a couple of issues have come up:
1) The skin layout diagram is nice, but the crucial dimensions for
positioning the spar are assuming that the skin is as supplied, untrimmed.
I discovered, after trimming my skin to the right size, and priming it,
that my original layout lines have been obliterated by the primer, and it
is tough to accurately draw in new ones after the skin is trimmed. I guess
the lesson here is: I shouldn't have trimmed my skin yet! Oh well, I don't
think an 1/16" here or there will be too critical.
2) The skin layout diagram seems to show the skin lying flat, but as
supplied the skin is already bent, of course. So is one supposed to
measure from the original bend reference line(which is tough to do, since
you have to measure along the radius of the bend) or simply measure
everything from the bent "edge" of the trailing edge? Again, it is only a
matter of 1/8" or so, so it probably doesn't matter.
_________________
| |
| |
| |
"setback" | |
__________________ _- |-----------------|
|\ \ | |
| \ \ | |
| \__________________\ | |
|__________________| |_________________|
as supplied as drawn
3) What is the new counterbalanced rudder on the RV-6B? An aerodynamic
counterbalance? What's wrong with the existing design?
Curt Reimer
RV-6 2% complete
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Rudder Dimensions |
> I don't
>think an 1/16" here or there will be too critical.
> Again, it is only a
>matter of 1/8" or so, so it probably doesn't matter.
Curt:
Right on both counts. You would have to have a big error before something would
not go together right. I have seen a problem with several builders that is worth
mentioning. I didn't have the problem myself, and I don't know what caused it,
but the upper fiberglass tip for the rudder doesn't fit right. There will be a
big gap between the ends of the tip and the skin it is supposed to mate with. It
is as if too much skin was cut off the top or the spar was attached too far
forward. This required either adding bondo to the front end of the tip or adding
skin extenders to raise it up some. After you place the spar where you think it
should go, hold the upper tip next to the skin and see if it looks like it will
fit right after you bend the leading edge.
And I would love it if someone would write up some instructions like mine for
building the rudder. Any volunteers? While the rudder is not as bad as the
elevators, I still hear of people having trouble with it.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mag(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Frank Justice's RV Instructions Are On-Line! |
You can retrieve Frank Justice's RV instructions from our WWW site:
http://matrix.ssd.intel.com:8008/~mag/rv-builder.html
Happy Browsing!
Michael A. Goldsmith
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Rudder Dimensions |
> Curt:
>
> Right on both counts. You would have to have a big error before something would
> not go together right. I have seen a problem with several builders that is worth
> mentioning. I didn't have the problem myself, and I don't know what caused it,
> but the upper fiberglass tip for the rudder doesn't fit right. There will be
a
> big gap between the ends of the tip and the skin it is supposed to mate with.
It
> is as if too much skin was cut off the top or the spar was attached too far
> forward. This required either adding bondo to the front end of the tip or adding
> skin extenders to raise it up some. After you place the spar where you think
it
> should go, hold the upper tip next to the skin and see if it looks like it will
> fit right after you bend the leading edge.
At first mine seemed way under-sized, but then found it was too wide, so I heated
it
up in hot water and pressed the sides together, which not only made it narrower
but
also elongated it, so it ended up fitting quite well.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Rudder Dimensions Rudder Dimensions |
> 3) What is the new counterbalanced rudder on the RV-6B? An aerodynamic
> counterbalance? What's wrong with the existing design?
>
> Curt Reimer
> RV-6 2% complete
They developed the taller VS with taller, counterweighted rudder to compensate
for
the larger canopy on the Nigerian air beetle, and since the RV-6T demonstrator
is essentially that, they put one on there. The -6B doesn't have the taller canopy,
although apparently it is slightly taller than normal due to some mods to the canopy
track. I guess they just decided that greater rudder authority and larger VS to
minimize VS/Rudder blocking in a slip would be more desirable in a likely production
plane, hence its use on the -6B.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
We finally figured out the major mystery of the last few days. Why do both
my wife and I have what used to be called "tennis elbow". The elbow region
of both of our arms near the "crazy bone". (No comments please). I tried
to figure what we have both been doing that would have caused both of us
to have this affliction. The only project that we have been working on
together lately was the RV-6. Then I realized what was going on. We both have
been using the rivet gun. Holding the rivet gun seems to tense that
muscle. Has anyone else experienced "airplane elbow" ?
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: | : Randy S. McCallister :
: _________________|_________________ ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
: \ | | / : :
: `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 :
: /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 :
:RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu :
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
John, you will be happy to hear that the Comm Antennae and ELT are
working fine, and none of the parts you screwed-on have fallen-off!
38.5 hours, will finish flying-off time today (friday). Heading for
Oshkosh Monday or Tuesday with able co-pilot Doug Miner on board.
Having a ball flying it.
Hey Randall, did you notice that Van FINALLY figured-out how to paint
an RV - stripe small in front increasing in width towards the back?
The yellow with red stripe are (my opinion) his best colors yet.
Looking forward to your discussion of just WHAT the RV-6B is.
dw
>I was probably almost as excited as Don to hear that his plane flew.
>It was a blast to know that I helped on it a little.
>I'm supposed to have a set of RV-6 plans on order.
>John H. Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rudder Dimensions |
>but the upper fiberglass tip for the rudder doesn't fit right. There
>will be a big gap between the ends of the tip and the skin it is
>supposed to mate with.
>Frank J.
If I can offer one piece of advice that will apply throughout your
projects: NEVER, I repeat, NEVER trim skins where a later fit will be
required until it is absolutely necessary! If you leave the extra 1"
to 1.5" of skin above the top rudder rib and the top vertical stab rib
until you are fitting the tips, you will have a much better chance to
get a good fit, AND, to adjust the angle of those two parts in
relation to each other when the rudder/stab are mated.
This also applies to the wing tips, horz stab, elevators, flap inboard
skin ends, etc.
I know the plans say to leave 'at least .5" or so' for mounting tips,
but leave as much as you can, it will increase your chances for a
better fit later. It also leaves you more material to file/trim-off
later if you 'ding' something or make a bad cut.
While we're on the subject, with all the talk about 'heavy tails', I
hope I don't see any of you 'bondo-ing' the seams where your
fiberglass tips mate to your stabs/elev/rudder. All this does is add
weight and look ugly. Personally, I feel a well-done straight seam
where two dissimilar materials are joined is better looking than the
best job of covering that seam with filler. Just look at several done
both ways and you may see what I mean. The fact that it is lighter
should be reason enough for you ounce-concious builders out there.
Since I haven't seen any more about this subject, why don't those of
you going to Osh meet at Van's booth at 10am thursday? Doug Miner & I
will be leaving Portland Monday, planning to take at least 2 days to
get there. Hopefully we'll be flying wing for local RV-6 pilot Dan
Delano, who will have RV-lister Rion Bourgious as co-pilot.
See you there,
Don Wentz, RV-6 #20369, 180hp fi, Warnke 72x73 prop.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
Hi Folks
Thought I'd drop a note saying that John Perrin and I will be at Oshkosh
starting Tuesday
night (it's a long drive from Ottawa). Nobody has set a time to meet so I
figured that maybe
we could meet in front of Vans tent at 1000 on (insert day here). I expect
we will be there
at 1000 each day until Sunday (banquet day). Just so you recognize at least
one of us,
I'll be the rather large, bearded individual wearing his RV baseball cap
backwards (it will
look stupid, but hey, I'll be a 1000 miles from home so who cares!!)
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Text item:
Hi Folks
OK, each day at 10am at Van's tent is a reasonable plan, see you
there.
dw
>Thought I'd drop a note saying that John Perrin and I will be at
>Oshkosh starting Tuesday night (it's a long drive from Ottawa).
>Nobody has set a time to meet so I figured that maybe we could meet
>in front of Vans tent at 1000 on (insert day here). I expect we will
>be there at 1000 each day until Sunday (banquet day). Just so you
>recognize at least one of us, I'll be the rather large, bearded
>individual wearing his RV baseball cap backwards (it will look
>stupid, but hey, I'll be a 1000 miles from home so who cares!!)
>Mark
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 14:12:00 EDT
Subject: Oshkosh
From: Mark Richardson <sofkin.ca!richards(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
RV-6B Report
For the past few months as I've wandered in and out of Van's "skunk-works"
I've been catching glimpses of a strange airplane taking shape. Van and
employees were pretty tight-lipped about it so I've honored their wishes and
not talked about it to anyone (except to other locals who've been snooping
around as I have), but since they announced it in the latest RVator and
have started to show it off at fly-ins I figure the cover's off so to speak,
so I suppose it's ok to spill my guts.
They're calling it the RV-6B, and it looks a lot like a -6A, but it has quite
a few modifications. Previously whenever I asked one of Van's employees
about it they'd just say "it's a bunch of things Van wanted to try out",
which is more or less what they're still saying, although they also now
admit (which I suspected all along) that the mods are "production plane"
oriented. It's painted yellow with a red stripe (looks nice), and has a
160hp lycoming with a Senesenich fixed pitch prop. Among the differences from
a stock RV-6 are:
Lengthened fuselage and an extended engine mount, increasing the length of
the airplane by about four inches.
Leaf type steel main gear legs.
Machined, one piece wing spars -- would cut way down on building time if
they ever made it available in the kits, but more expensive in terms of
materials cost. Primarily a production plane measure, according to Van.
Rectangular planform horizontal stabilizer - again, supposed to cut down
on labor. Doesn't look half bad though.
Larger, rectangular elevators, with correspondingly larger counterweight arms.
Taller VS with counterweight arm like the -6T. Since the -6B doesn't have
the tall canopy like the -6T, I would guess they included it either because
of the longer fuselage or because they determined that more rudder authority
and/or yaw stability was needed in order to achieve certification, or maybe
both.
Slotted flaps, with hinges that hang down below the wing like a C-180. More
drag, but they should reduce the stall speed. Van is still testing this and
all he would say when I asked him was "it seems to be working".
Wing tanks non-removable -- just riveted to the spar like the leading edge.
Partly because of the new spar, and probably a lot easier to build, but
what if they ever leak? And guess what -- one of them does. Or did, they
sloshed it after the fact, I expect it's fixed now.
In addition to the differences from the basic kit, the instrument panel is a
"glass cockpit", with an Apollo moving map GPS, a Vision Microsystems
engine/fuel status display, and a Rocky Mountain Instruments pitot/static
monitor. The only mechanical instruments in the panel are the compass and G
meter. (Van says in an actual production plane they'd probably just go with
the standard 'T' configuration for the instruments.)
The results look to me like pretty much what you'd expect for a kit plane
modified to achieve certification -- most of the mods involve higher drag
and extra weight, but should provide for better stability and slow flight.
Given that the RV-6A is already a pretty docile airplane as high-performance
kit planes go, I would expect that if anything is going to succeed as a
production plane, the RV-6B looks like a good candidate, if they decide to
follow through on it. Which brings up an interesting point for discussion:
what do we as builders of RV _KIT_ planes think of the whole idea of a
production RV?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Frank's RV Instructions |
There have already been a bunch of accesses to the RV build instructions
that Mike Goldsmith recently put on a server. You can help improve them
by sending mail to me indicating any of the following:
Things you don't understand
Methods you think may work better
Typo errors
Comments about any tools or tool usage, bought or homemade
Any problem areas with kits shipped several years ago that have since
been corrected (for those who are moving slower)
I will be making minor revisions on an irregular basis using all of the
above. I will have to check out any significant variations in methods by
actually trying them myself, which requires the cooperation of a local
builder who is at the right stage. Therefore some improvements may not
show up as soon as others. It is not likely I will be able to use any
major changes in order of steps because of the effort required to verify
them and the present order seems to work reasonably well.
I don't plan to give credit for everything sent in, mainly because so
many people have already contributed. Also, this will never be turned
into a profit-making venture.
Frank J.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: micrometers/calipers |
After shopping around with all your comments in mind, I ended up getting a
plastic dial caliper for $28. I appreciate all the comments, they helped me
realize I didn't really NEED to pay the big bucks for the fanciest digital
electronic one, which in fact probably wouldn't have been as useful, since
it doesn't have any fractional (64ths) measurements, only decimal. I did
drool for a moment over a very nice looking steel dial caliper ($121) but
passed it up. The one I got reads in both 64ths and 100ths on the dial. I'm
sure it will be quite useful, especially when I think about all the times
I've held my machinist's rule up against something that I couldn't quite
line up with and just eyeballed the measurement -- this should help a lot
with accuracy and save time by avoiding having to come up with goofy ways to
measure oddly shaped parts.
Thanks all for your input.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au |
Subject: | Re: Frank's RV Instructions |
Hi Frank,
Just one little comment!!
I'M Impressed!! The instructions are and excellent addition to Van's
Manual. I hope you don't mind, I have give copies of your manual to a
number of builders here in Australia who don't have access to the net.
Thanks again
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Frank's RV Instructions
Date: 27/7/94 8:59 AM
There have already been a bunch of accesses to the RV build instructions
that Mike Goldsmith recently put on a server. You can help improve them
by sending mail to me indicating any of the following:
Things you don't understand
Methods you think may work better
Typo errors
Comments about any tools or tool usage, bought or homemade
Any problem areas with kits shipped several years ago that have since
been corrected (for those who are moving slower)
I will be making minor revisions on an irregular basis using all of the
above. I will have to check out any significant variations in methods by
actually trying them myself, which requires the cooperation of a local
builder who is at the right stage. Therefore some improvements may not
show up as soon as others. It is not likely I will be able to use any
major changes in order of steps because of the effort required to verify
them and the present order seems to work reasonably well.
I don't plan to give credit for everything sent in, mainly because so
many people have already contributed. Also, this will never be turned
into a profit-making venture.
Frank J.
frank(at)ssd.intel.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
its.csiro.au!John.Morrissey(at)matronics.com
Subject: | Re[2]: Frank's RV Instructions |
> I hope you don't mind, I have give copies of your manual to a
> number of builders here in Australia who don't have access to the net.
>
> Thanks again
>
> John Morrissey
That's the whole idea. The more people who can build an RV without having to
redo a bunch of stuff or be unhappy with the results the better I will feel.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Subject: | Doubler blues, etc... |
I was in the shop last night fitting the doubler that goes on the
nose ribs between the LE skin and the fuel tank (W-623?) and ran
into a few problems. The doubler as supplied (36") isn't long
enough to cover the nose ribs, with about a 3/4 to 1" shortage.
The plans don't show a good overall view of the doubler in relation
to the ribs, so I don't know if it's not supposed to cover the entire
rib or what. Seems to me it should cover the rib but stop short of
the spar web. Anyone got any insight? By the way, I did get it
clamped down (under the LE skin) with all the gaps and bulges out...
it's _definately_ shorter than the rib. I've got to get at least
one new one anyway (misdrilled several holes - again), so should I
get another W-623, or should I get a longer strip from stock?
Note that all this was going on _before_ the tornadoes went by (said
with hair still standing on end). Made an impressive (in a relative
kinda sense) waterspout when it hit the bay.
Anyone else notice Mike Pilla made the first flight in Rae Hoopes
RV-6 in this month's RVator? Both are regulars at the Frederick
forum, and Mike is (was? where are you, Mike?) an RV-lister.
Congrats.
________________________________________________________________________________
a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6
is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van
uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you.
And just to toss out a barb or two - I see two design flaws
in the RV-6B:
1) It's not a tail dragger
2) It's side-by-side seating.
(and a distant third - no tailhook)
(big smile)
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
(building a -4, obviously)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mag(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Frank's Instructions: Help for those with dumb terminals |
For those of you with internet access, but without X windows, MS windows
or a Mac, you can use Lynx. It is a WWW browser for dumb terminals.
It is available by anonymous ftp from:
ftp2.cc.ukans.edu
in directory pub/lynx.
Enjoy,
Michael A. Goldsmith
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Dave Hyde speculates:
> >From scanning the -6B discussion, I wonder if vertical stab sizing was
> a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6
> is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van
> uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you.
Did anyone catch the account in the last RVator "First Flights" section
about a builder that did some aerobatics in his new RV-6. It very casually
metioned that he did spins and a bunch of other stuff. I can't remember
who the builder is, but most folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially
in the -6. (After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know
what happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your barbs,
Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his flight testing?
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Those Instructions |
Has anyone considered forwarding these instructions to Van's for
incorporation into or modification of the manual?
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au |
Hi All,
Well having spun a RV6 by mistake during type certification testing
here in Australia, all I can say is that its exciting!! It has a
pretty fast rotation (short Wings) and starts out with a bit of a
oscillation in the pitch axis(short Fuselage). Apart from that, It
recovers OK with full opposite rudder and forward stick. Beware !
Depending on how straight your aircraft is and its final setup you can
get a lot of variation in this. be very wary of attempting the with
either full forward or full aft CofG. You have to work up to the spin
and collect clues on what the aircraft is likely to do in the spin
entry. Look for dramatic wing drop in the stall especially in high
back turns with Flaps extended. My entry was a rather aerobatic one
and she went right over on its back during the entry. ONLY attempt
your first spins with a lot of allitude to recover. Remember to check
you Parachute before you get in the aircraft :-).
Remember
Stay calm - you must avoid becoming disorientated
Full opposite rudder, hold it that way until you recover (some guys
say step on the heavy peddle)
Ease the stick forward until you recover from the stall
The aircraft WILL recover after a turn or two.
Enjoy
John Morrissey
BTW I gained my spin experience from about 800hrs of Gliding
instruction. Make sure you are current in aerobatics. Take a refresher
ride in a Pitts or something similar.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV spins
AARNet_Gateway
Date: 28/7/94 11:18 AM
Dave Hyde speculates:
> >From scanning the -6B discussion, I wonder if vertical stab sizing was
> a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6
> is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van
> uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you.
Did anyone catch the account in the last RVator "First Flights" section
about a builder that did some aerobatics in his new RV-6. It very casually
metioned that he did spins and a bunch of other stuff. I can't remember
who the builder is, but most folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially
in the -6. (After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know
what happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your barbs,
Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his flight testing?
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Earl says:
>It very casually metioned that he did spins and a bunch of
>other stuff. I can't rememberwho the builder is, but most
>folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially in the -6.
>(After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know what
>happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your
>barbs, Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his
>flight testing?
Don't have that issue with me...I'll look for it tonight.
Did he do them on the FIRST flight? Wow.
I think spins are a good idea, even if they are tough (I didn't
want to say 'risky'). Later, much later in the flight test period,
though. I plan on doing spin testing, if not regular spins, on my -4
when I finish it. I think it's a pretty smart thing to do in
anything you're going to do acro in 1) so that you approach
departures and spins in a controlled and planned manner, and can
'adjust' the type of flying you do if they turn out nasty, and
2) so that you are familiar with the characteristics when it does
happen inadvertantly. I've got a little experience doing (real
and unintentional :) ) departure and spin testing in other types,
so I've got some insight into the situation...but I'll still ask
for help from anyone who's got ideas!
I also got the impression from Van that spins in the -4 were no
big deal, and that in the -6 they were just a little slow to recover.
Are people shying away from them in RV's in particular, or from
spins in (approved) GA airplanes in general?
What does happen when you spin a Yankee? I just thought they
dropped out of the sky at 80 knots. (zing!)
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Next question: I've got the tailhook fittings mounted on the
aft fuselage bulkheads. Now where do I put the catapult holdback
attach points?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Those Instructions |
>Has anyone considered forwarding these instructions to Van's for
>incorporation into or modification of the manual?
Yes, Van and company have seen them but are not interested. They feel like
building an RV should be an exercise in figuring things out for yourself. If you
have called in for technical help you have probably gotten that impression first
hand. This is the old "spirit of adventure" thing, and I have run into a
significant number of builders who would rather do it this way. There are many
other builders who are just the opposite and want to buy prebuilt spars, tanks,
wings, even the whole airplane. My instructions are aimed at those builders in
between who want the pride of doing it all themselves but not the frustrations
of skins with kinks, parts that have to be made over, and having to undo hours
worth of work to get to something else.
When my airplane is done and the instructions are finished I will probably
advertise in the RV-Ator and sell them for printing and mailing costs.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
>Next question: I've got the tailhook fittings mounted on the
>aft fuselage bulkheads. Now where do I put the catapult holdback
>attach points?
No problem if you were building a -6A!!
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
(5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA21491;
From: | Karen Hampton <khampton(at)u.washington.edu> |
Subject: | Frank Justice's instructions |
I've tried to access Frank's instructions and was able
to look at them a little bit using LYNX on a pc but
didn't see how to print out the whle document.
Are they available via anonymous ftp? If not, could
you please mail them directly to me Frank? Since
our mailer is currently down, could you please send
it t:
khampton(at)carson.u.washington.edu.
Thanks, I appreciate the help. I plan to order the
wing kit real soon now, probably in August.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
:>Next question: I've got the tailhook fittings mounted on the
:>aft fuselage bulkheads. Now where do I put the catapult holdback
:>attach points?
:No problem if you were building a -6A!!
Which will be a -6 after the first catapult!
(big smile, pat the dash)
DH
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
Subject: | Re: Those Instructions |
> When my airplane is done and the instructions are finished I will
> probably advertise in the RV-Ator and sell them for printing and mailing
> costs.
"Hello Van's? I'd like to order an RV-6 kit. I'd like the Philotigon Spar
and the FrankCo assembly instructions options."
:-)
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Those Instructions |
>"Hello Van's? I'd like to order an RV-6 kit. I'd like the Philotigon Spar
>and the FrankCo assembly instructions options."
If you get option #2 you won't need option #1.
fkj
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | FOR SALE: RV-6 KIT |
After considerable thought and months of soul searching, I've
decided that an RV-6 is just not going to fit the bill. There's
no way around it, I need 4 seats. So, my kit is for sale.
For those of you who will be needing a wing kit soon, I just
received mine a couple of weeks ago. It's still in the shipping
crates. The wing spar was built by Phlogiston. The whole thing
cost me $4000.00. It can be yours for $3500.00 + shipping. Save $500.00 and
get your wing kit now. You won't have to wait 5 months like I did.
I also have the horizontal and vertical stabilizers riveted and
primed with Dupont Variprime. The rudder is all ready for final assembly...
just needs a coat of primer and the skin can be
riveted to the spar assembly. The elevators are as I received them
from Van's Aircraft last year. I'll take $400.00, or best offer, for the
empenage components including all the nuts, bolts, rivets, and
other assorted hardware.
If anyone is interested, you can email me at cgaddis(at)aol.com or
cgaddis(at)ess.harris.com. You can also call me at home at
407-242-4643, or at work at 407-984-5772. Shipping will
be by overland freight from Melbourne, Florida.
As for my next plane, I'm looking at Velocity, Express, and
Lancair. I like what I've read about the Lancair ES.
Best of Luck to all of you with your project.
Matt, thanks for supporting the mailing list, It's been great.
Carl
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com,
ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com
Text item:
Very important!!! with spin recovery.
----- !!!!! ALWAYS BE SHURE TO PULL THE POWER !!!!! -----
I'm not sure about the RV, but in a Pitts, if you don't pull the power and use
forward stick to recover you likely will end up in an inverted flat spin. If
you forget and this happens, just remember!!! PULL THE POWER !!! Normal recovery
is no problem with POWER OFF.
JMW
Hi All,
Well having spun a RV6 by mistake during type certification testing
here in Australia, all I can say is that its exciting!! It has a
pretty fast rotation (short Wings) and starts out with a bit of a
oscillation in the pitch axis(short Fuselage). Apart from that, It
recovers OK with full opposite rudder and forward stick. Beware !
Depending on how straight your aircraft is and its final setup you can
get a lot of variation in this. be very wary of attempting the with
either full forward or full aft CofG. You have to work up to the spin
and collect clues on what the aircraft is likely to do in the spin
entry. Look for dramatic wing drop in the stall especially in high
back turns with Flaps extended. My entry was a rather aerobatic one
and she went right over on its back during the entry. ONLY attempt
your first spins with a lot of allitude to recover. Remember to check
you Parachute before you get in the aircraft :-).
Remember
Stay calm - you must avoid becoming disorientated
Full opposite rudder, hold it that way until you recover (some guys
say step on the heavy peddle)
Ease the stick forward until you recover from the stall
The aircraft WILL recover after a turn or two.
Enjoy
John Morrissey
BTW I gained my spin experience from about 800hrs of Gliding
instruction. Make sure you are current in aerobatics. Take a refresher
ride in a Pitts or something similar.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV spins
AARNet_Gateway
Date: 28/7/94 11:18 AM
Dave Hyde speculates:
> >From scanning the -6B discussion, I wonder if vertical stab sizing was
> a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6
> is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van
> uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you.
Did anyone catch the account in the last RVator "First Flights" section
about a builder that did some aerobatics in his new RV-6. It very casually
metioned that he did spins and a bunch of other stuff. I can't remember
who the builder is, but most folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially
in the -6. (After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know
what happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your barbs,
Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his flight testing?
Earl
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re[2]: RV spins
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 09:56:35 +1000
From: its.csiro.au!John.Morrissey(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
Subject: | That doubler thang |
I've seen three responses so far; Gil, Gary, and Randall all
saying that their W-623's were too short as well, by about
1/2 in. per side. As it looks like I won't make min edge spacing
for the plate nuts the way mine worked out and I mis-drilled
a few holes to boot, I've got to get another one anyway, so I'm just going
to get some sheet stock about 40" long and cut it to the proper length.
Unless someone comes up with a reason to leave it short (soon!), that is.
Sorry to see Carl go. What changed your mind?
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
> > follow through on it. Which brings up an interesting point for discussion:
> what do we as builders of RV _KIT_ planes think of the whole idea of a
> production RV?
>
Where do I but stock in the company. I think it will be a competitive
aircraft (assuming reasonable pricing.) However, I don't think it
will detract from my desire to build one.
We've had discussion before about too-far-aft center of gravity
with light engine/prop. Perhaps Van's will produce and offer the
longer engine mount and cowling to builders to move the CG forward
a bit.
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | That doubler thang |
As I recall, mine required 'scabbing-in' a small piece also. Your
plan is a good one - worst case you can cut it to original size if
anyone ever figures-out why it is 'too short'.
As for Carl, who feels 4 seats is a requirement, on display at Oshkosh
along with the Lancair ES (4-seat fixed-trike composite), were
basically identical offerings from KIS and Cirrus (the VK-30 pusher
folks). Now there are 3 to choose from in that category.
Glasair also had their 'Glastar' 2 seat (possible 2+2) high-wing on
display. Very pretty for a high-wing 152-sized aircraft. Composite
fuselage with nicely built, light weight ALL ALUMINUM
strut-braced wings. Steel tube inner floor/gear/engine-mount
structure. Has hard points for nose or tail dragger main gear
(tubular steel). They felt they could offer a complete kit: airframe,
panel with basic instruments, new continental -240 (?) engine, all you
would need, for <$35K. Really one of the nicest "medium performance"
offerings I've seen.
Tons of RVs there. This was our first trip to Oshkosh, and we made
it in my now 1 month old RV-6. We had a BLAST!
By the way, due to an on field starter replacement we had to do on my
RV, we only made the "10 am RV-List mtg at Van's tent" on wednesday
morning, and didn't see any listers. Full Oshkosh trip report
forthcoming.
dw
>I've seen three responses so far; Gil, Gary, and Randall all
>saying that their W-623's were too short as well, by about
>1/2 in. per side. As it looks like I won't make min edge spacing
>for the plate nuts the way mine worked out and I mis-drilled
>a few holes to boot, I've got to get another one anyway, so I'm just
>going to get some sheet stock about 40" long and cut it to the proper
>length. Unless someone comes up with a reason to leave it short
>(soon!), that is.
>Sorry to see Carl go. What changed your mind?
>Dave Hyde
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
In response to the Hendersons' comments (Randall and John) on the RV-6B
and its
effect on the RV-6 and -6A kits, let me say that I don't believe it will replace
them or reduce their value.
It is my understanding that the RV-6B is aimed at the trainer market, and
the
modifications are an attempt to make it less responsive and hence more docile,
not correct any CG deficiency. In this regards, I just got back from OSHKOSH
where I flew right seat in Dan DeLano's RV-6, and the sobriquet of "baggage
wagon" for the RV-6 and -6A (albeit only used by RV-4 pilots) is apt. We piled
in dome tent, two sleeping bags, two air mattresses, two lawn chairs, two
clothes bags, two cameras, novels, canteens, cell-phone, and miscellaneous
items until the baggage compartment was filled to the level of the seat tops.
If we had piled it any higher, baggage would have spilled forward into the
passenger area. On the way back, we had all of the above plus T-shirts, caps,
cups, tools, parts and brochures we picked up at the Fly Market. We always
filled the tanks to the brim. We experienced absolutely no handling or trim
problems of any kind. It may be possible to load an RV-6 beyond its aft CG
limit, but it would take a real effort to do so.
The RV-6 and -6A have never, to my knowledge, had any CG deficiency. The
RV-6B
does not appear an attempt to improve on the -6 and -6A, so even if the -6 or
-6A went into production or were offered as a kit, I don't see it reducing the
desirability or value of the -6 or -6A. If I owned an FBO or ran a flying club,
I might prefer owning an RV-6B than the previous models, but I can't imagine
why anyone would prefer it over the -6 or -6A as their personal mount.
Before you start chortling, Randall, I still prefer the RV-4, and don't
regret
that I am building it instead of an RV-6, even though it won't carry as much
baggage as an RV-6, at least not with a passenger and within CG limits. But if
my primary mission WERE a camper instead of a tandem seat fun- flyer and RV-6
killer, I would build an RV-6 or RV-6A, not an RV- 6B.
One benefit RV-6 and -6A builders should not overlook: with the introduction
of the RV-6B, there is now a VanGrunsven design you will be able to outfly, a
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>> > follow through on it. Which brings up an interesting point for discussion:
>> what do we as builders of RV _KIT_ planes think of the whole idea of a
>> production RV?
>>
>
>
from John Henderson
>Where do I but stock in the company. I think it will be a competitive
>aircraft (assuming reasonable pricing.) However, I don't think it
>will detract from my desire to build one.
>
>We've had discussion before about too-far-aft center of gravity
>with light engine/prop. Perhaps Van's will produce and offer the
>longer engine mount and cowling to builders to move the CG forward
>a bit.
I hope so, since I have not bought my finishing kit yet :-)
This brings up an interesting point in purchasing Van's kits. By buying
my kits when I needed them, I got the pre-drilled gear attach points, and
the laser cut bulkheads. I did miss out on the better formed wing ribs
though.
Because of Vans continous improvement in his kits, I would suggest to
all new builders to buy one kit at a time, rather than all at once.
Financially, I would guess that Vans rate of price increase has been less
than inflation (except for Lycoming engines!!!), and that the risk of not
getting final kits due to a business failure is pretty minimal, especially
due to the metal construction {this is not true for the glass kits, as
witnessed by the Wheeler Express experience}.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject??
Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ... fus. bulkheads
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | FACCHINETTI <Claudio.Facchinetti(at)imt.unine.ch> |
Hi RV-fans,
I'm new to this mailing list and I have a few questions for you RV-4
and 6/6a owners. I'm currently trying to select the RV that would fit
me best. I got the RV info pack, but there are things you can't really
figure out just by reading numbers.
First, the RV-4 has about half as much extra payload (baggage) than
the RV-6/6a (I didn't see anything mentioned concerning volume for the
RV-4). What does it mean practically ? Can you still do some X-country
with more than a towel, toothpaste and a couple of toothbrushes in the
baggage compartment ?
My problem choosing between RVs is that I will use my plane 90% for fun,
aerobatics training (well, first learning) and sight-seeing. But I also
intend to use it 10% for travelling, maybe even for really long distances.
Of course, I'll probably have to rent a 182 in various occasions, but it
would certainly be appreciable (for my purse) to use my plane as often as
possible. So, question: is there a big difference in aerobatics skills
between the RV-4, 6 and 6a ? Is the RV-4 comfortable enough on long
distances ?
Is it possible to say that my choice should be between the RV-4 and the
RV-6a, or does the RV-6 offer a sensible difference (according to the
above constraints) compared to the 6a ? Is the RV-6 more like an RV-4 with
front seats or a 6a with conventional gear (I know the question sounds
stupid, but I guess you get the idea...) ? I never flew a taildragger, but
wouldn't mind doing it.
Thanks in advance for advices,
--Claudio
________________________________________________________
| Claudio Facchinetti |
| Institute for Microtechnology Tel: |
| Tivoli 28, CH-2000 Neuchatel Fax 0041.38.301.845 |
/) Switzerland Pro 0041.38.301.653 (\
/ ) facchinetti(at)imt.unine.c Pri 0041.38.252.878 ( \
_( (|________________________________________________________) ) />
(((\ \) /,) / ) / //))/
(\\\\ \_/ / \ \_/ /////
\ / \ /
\ _/ \_ /
----/ /-----------------------------------------------------\ \----
/ / \ \
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Lycoming O-320 Conversion, props |
Two things as I prepare to get serious with engine installation:
1) Anyone have any experience converting low compression O-320 engines to
high compression? Is it really as simple as taking off the jugs, honing
them (how do you do that really?), installing new pistons and rings,
adjusting the mixture (or is there anything else required with the
carburator?)?
2) OK - what is the net wisdom on available wood props? In other words,
whose should I buy and why?
Richard
...not wanting to have to mess with my -E2D but probably really wanting
160hp and lower fuel consumption...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
Subject: | Claudio's dilemma |
In deciding which two-seat RV to build, a logical approach
would be to list the relative advantages and disadvantages of each
in relation to the other two-seater RV models. I would assume
Claudio and any other prospective RV builder has already used a
similar process to eliminate other manufacturers' kits. I would
propose the following as a list of the relative advantages and
disadvantages of the RV-4 vs. the RV-6s, and then theh RV-6 vs.
theh RV-6A.
RV-4 vs. RV-6s:
RV-4
Advantages: faster, sexier, better visibility, better
acrobatics due to pilot sitting on center line, less expensive to
build, and more fun to stand beside at fly-ins.
Disadvantages: cramped rear seat, less baggage capacity,
less range.
RV-6s
Advantages: more comfort for passenger/co-pilot, tremendous
baggage capacity (two lawn chairs no problem), room for IFR panel,
more range. Float conversion already available for the -6.
Disadvantages: less visibility to the right, looks less like
a P-51, more expensive kit, pilot sits offset to one side or the
other.
Comments: I understand the float kit for the RV-4 is in the
works. The range can be equalized by building RV-6 tanks on the
RV-4. The baggage differential can be reduced, but not eliminated,
by installing storage lockers in the RV-4 wing tips. Of course,
storage lockers in the RV-6 tips restores the differential. Bottom
line is that the RV-6 is more convenient for camping, and more
comfortable for the passenger, but the RV-4 is more fun for the
pilot to fly due to the tandem seating. A serious question to
consider is how big is your spouse, whether or not your spouse will
be happy riding in the back, and if your spouse is a pilot, whether
or not you will be happy riding in the back. I have only flown in
the back seat of an RV-4, and much prefer the right seat of the RV-
6 to the back seat of the RV-4. But I fly a Champion 7ECA
(Citabria) taildragger regularly, and much prefer the tandem
seating arrangement to side-by-side due to the differences in
visibility and the feel of the airplane. I really like being able
to see the ground equally on both sides. In a side-by-side
airplane, I always feel like I'm missing something. Most of my
flying will be sport flying, I have always traveled light, and my
wife is not a pilot. I will not have to fly in the back seat of my
RV-4. So I chose the RV-4.
RV-6 vs. RV-6A:
RV-6
Advantages: the tail-dragger looks better, is lighter and
slightly faster, and is cheaper to build. The float conversion is
already available.
Disadvantages: the tail-dragger is harder to land.
RV-6A
Advantages: the trike is easier to land, and has better
visibility taxiing.
Disadvantages: the trike is a tad heavier, a tad slower, and
can be mistaken from a distance for a Grumman product.
Comments: I don't believe the RV-6 can be used on appreciably
rougher fields than the -6A, at least not with the standard sized
main wheels. I have never landed my Citabria on a field an RV-6A
could not handle. I don't think rough fields are an issue here,
but I am no bush pilot.
I have flown in both the -6 and the -6A, and I can't tell the
difference in flight. I can sure tell the difference taxiing and
landing: the -6A is easier to land, and has better taxiing
visibility at slow speeds. I think the major advantage of the -6
over the -6A is looks. The -6 is no more fun to fly than the -6A
unless you like the challenge of landing the taildragger. If you
haven't flown taildraggers in the past, you could transition very
quickly into the RV-6A, but will need some serious training before
you fly the RV-4 or RV-6.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Subject: | PMA engines at OSH? |
Who went to Oshkosh? What the latest of the line of 4-cylinder engines
from Henry Boulay/PMA ?
John H. Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
Set of -6 plans supposedly on order.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Claudio's dilemma |
Text item:
Van's Aircraft has the new Introduction Video available now. It's only $10 and
gives a great overview of all models.
jmw
In deciding which two-seat RV to build, a logical approach
would be to list the relative advantages and disadvantages of each
in relation to the other two-seater RV models. I would assume
Claudio and any other prospective RV builder has already used a
similar process to eliminate other manufacturers' kits. I would
propose the following as a list of the relative advantages and
disadvantages of the RV-4 vs. the RV-6s, and then theh RV-6 vs.
theh RV-6A.
RV-4 vs. RV-6s:
RV-4
Advantages: faster, sexier, better visibility, better
acrobatics due to pilot sitting on center line, less expensive to
build, and more fun to stand beside at fly-ins.
Disadvantages: cramped rear seat, less baggage capacity,
less range.
RV-6s
Advantages: more comfort for passenger/co-pilot, tremendous
baggage capacity (two lawn chairs no problem), room for IFR panel,
more range. Float conversion already available for the -6.
Disadvantages: less visibility to the right, looks less like
a P-51, more expensive kit, pilot sits offset to one side or the
other.
Comments: I understand the float kit for the RV-4 is in the
works. The range can be equalized by building RV-6 tanks on the
RV-4. The baggage differential can be reduced, but not eliminated,
by installing storage lockers in the RV-4 wing tips. Of course,
storage lockers in the RV-6 tips restores the differential. Bottom
line is that the RV-6 is more convenient for camping, and more
comfortable for the passenger, but the RV-4 is more fun for the
pilot to fly due to the tandem seating. A serious question to
consider is how big is your spouse, whether or not your spouse will
be happy riding in the back, and if your spouse is a pilot, whether
or not you will be happy riding in the back. I have only flown in
the back seat of an RV-4, and much prefer the right seat of the RV-
6 to the back seat of the RV-4. But I fly a Champion 7ECA
(Citabria) taildragger regularly, and much prefer the tandem
seating arrangement to side-by-side due to the differences in
visibility and the feel of the airplane. I really like being able
to see the ground equally on both sides. In a side-by-side
airplane, I always feel like I'm missing something. Most of my
flying will be sport flying, I have always traveled light, and my
wife is not a pilot. I will not have to fly in the back seat of my
RV-4. So I chose the RV-4.
RV-6 vs. RV-6A:
RV-6
Advantages: the tail-dragger looks better, is lighter and
slightly faster, and is cheaper to build. The float conversion is
already available.
Disadvantages: the tail-dragger is harder to land.
RV-6A
Advantages: the trike is easier to land, and has better
visibility taxiing.
Disadvantages: the trike is a tad heavier, a tad slower, and
can be mistaken from a distance for a Grumman product.
Comments: I don't believe the RV-6 can be used on appreciably
rougher fields than the -6A, at least not with the standard sized
main wheels. I have never landed my Citabria on a field an RV-6A
could not handle. I don't think rough fields are an issue here,
but I am no bush pilot.
I have flown in both the -6 and the -6A, and I can't tell the
difference in flight. I can sure tell the difference taxiing and
landing: the -6A is easier to land, and has better taxiing
visibility at slow speeds. I think the major advantage of the -6
over the -6A is looks. The -6 is no more fun to fly than the -6A
unless you like the challenge of landing the taildragger. If you
haven't flown taildraggers in the past, you could transition very
quickly into the RV-6A, but will need some serious training before
you fly the RV-4 or RV-6.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Claudio's dilemma
From: "J. Rion Bourgeois" <compuserve.com!71311.2116(at)matronics.com>
Date: 05 Aug 94 18:07:30 EDT
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gratclif(at)magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gregory W. Ratcliff) |
Subject: | Over or Under the skin on the Elevator |
The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the
skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled).
Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives?
I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure.
Thanks,
greg
Gregory W. Ratcliff
Columbus, Ohio ICBM
In the Air N1697X
On the Air NZ8R
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au |
Subject: | O-360 Engines - Where do I buy in the US! |
Hi All,
I have a mate here in Canberra who is interested in buying a
reconditioned O-360 for his RV6. Here in Australia they "are as scarce
as flaming hen's teeth!!" Do any of you have any name's and addresses
for dealers/reconditioners that we could call?
Thanks
John Morrissey
RV4
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Over or Under the skin on the Elevator |
>The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the
>skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled).
>
>Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives?
>
>I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure.
Greg:
Everybody around here (Van's home county) seems to put it under the skin and it
looks fine if the rivets are carefully placed so you don't get any noticeable
distortion of the skin. I have seen some that look good and some that look bad.
There does not appear to be any difference in structural integrity.
By the way, if you are a fanatic about pop-rivets, you can avoid using them
where the plans say (the ones that go through the skin and the rear-inboard
corner of the strap/cap by first riveting the strap to the skin with only those
rivets and then inserting the rest of the assembled skeleton into this assembly.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Doubler blues, etc... |
> The doubler as supplied (36") isn't long
>enough to cover the nose ribs, with about a 3/4 to 1" shortage.
Dave:
I have thought about this for a while and still can't see it as a problem. Using
the rivet spacing in the plans did not make one fall into the gap, so there is
no distortion of the outer skin where the doubler thang stops (as long as you
make the gap equal on top and bottom). It also doesn't seem to be a structural
issue.
You said you had trouble with misdrilling this piece. Is there anything you can
say about this that might be worth having in the instructions?
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Oshkosh, RV-6B(T), Observations |
Well, this is my first post since my first trip to Oshkosh this year.
Unbelievable.
Anyway, I thought I would pass on those things that I observed relating to
RVs.
-There were something like 135 RVs registered as of saturday, according to
Van. I had a look at most of them. Most of them showed very nice
workmanship, a few were outstanding, and one or two were, well, I don't
know if I would fly in them.
-I had a ride in Van's blue -6A. My first RV ride. Fantastic! Handles like
a dream. Fingertip control. Never even touched the rudder pedals! Too bad,
I should have just to get a feel for the rudder. The takeoff run seemed to
last about 5 seconds (160 hp, CS prop). It was over all too soon.
-I talked to a few people about the sliding canopy, and I think I'll be
staying with the bubble type on my 6A. One of Van's people mentioned that
the breeze on the ground with the canopy open is actually too much - the
prop slipstream tends to blast in your face and send your hat flying. In
addition, I live in a cold climate where effective sealing against the
cold is more important than staying cool on the ground in the summer. (I
flew a 1600 mile round trip last xmas in a 172 and used the better part of
a roll of duct tape trying to seal all the air leaks - there is no such
thing as a "little" air leak at -20 degrees). I also hadn't realized that
with the sliding canopy you not only have the canopy frome obscuring your
vision, but you have a vertical tube right in the middle of your
windshield. No Thanks.
-Regarding the 6 vs 6A argument, I had been planning on building a 6, but
I think it now will be a 6A. The reasons: Well, the RV people I talked to,
including Van's staff, suggested that forward visibility in the 6 was less
than ideal. I found the visibility in the 6A to be adequate, but I
wouldn't want to give up any more. It seems that the cockpit sill is high
and the seating position rather low compared to production airplanes. And
although I would like to learn to fly taildraggers anyway, I think that I
would rather have the crosswind capability of a tri-gear for my personal
airplane. Besides, the 6A looks great too! In fact it is easily the best
looking fixed tri gear plane out there, beating the Glasair FT and Lancair
ES by a long shot.
-Speaking of Glasairs, I compared the reported owners cruise speeds of the
Glasair fixed trigear vs the RV-6As with the same engine/prop. The RV
gives up MAYBE 5 mph, if anything, while the glasair has a 10 mph higher
stall speed. So much for the idea of "speedy" composites. Those Lancairs
sure do look nice though (just pray the engine doesn't quit).
-Vans comments on the RV-6B (which is actually the 6T apparantly): It has a
the new molded canopy which is now being sold (and has great looking
optics) and a formed aluminum windshield fairing strip, which will not be
offered in the kits. The steel leaf spring gear is 4-5 pounds heavier per
gear leg, and will definitely increase drag, although performance figures
are not yet available. I think the steel-tube-with-fairing stock gear is
still the way to go. The square horizontal stabilizer is a simplification,
production status undetermined. To paraphrase Van:" We got tired of answering
questions about how to jig the various angles in the present tapered
stabilizer." Yuck! Just when I was hoping for a tapered wing. What next, a
square vertical stab? Cmon Van, good looks are the reason many of us bought
your airplane, so sell Frank's instructions instead of redesigning it!
The slotted flaps were designed to lower the stall speed in an effort to
meet a certification requirement which apparently is no longer required,
so I doubt if we'll ever see them again. The new counterbalanced rudder is
apparently over-balanced and is too light on the pedals according to the
guy who flew the plane to Osh from the factory.
-One of the questions raised at Van's forum was whether a 4 seat airplane
was in the works. Van replied that they are looking into it but are unsure
what the market desires - a 180 HP Cherokee-like machine or a 300 HP
screamer. At any rate, he does not feel that he could retain the flying
qualities of the RVs in a 4 place airplane, so he seemed reluctant to do it.
-Factoids: a new RV is being flown EVERY 3.5 DAYS
Vans is shipping the equivalent of 500 kits per year at this time.
Well, I've rambled on enough. Sorry I didn't meet any RV-listers but being
my first time at OSH, I was overwhelmed and trying to cram in as much as I
could. Next year.
Cheers,
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Riveting Rudder and Elevator Spars |
What is required to rivet to rivet the spar to the skins nicely? I have
seen plans for a back riveting tool. I don't think the Avery tool works,
does it? I would need a bigger yoke to do it with my squeezer. Would a 3"
yoke do it? Is it worth the $70 i.e. will I ever use it again?
Other comments on tools: At OSH I bought the new "best of RVator" book.
For $15 it is a must have. It goes back to 1980 and is loaded with good
stuff. In fact many of the questions that I have asked here on the net were
answered in this book. It covers flight testing, modifications, tools etc.
I bought the pneumatic cleco tool from US Tool. (I think it was US Tool)
The price was $70. I had been getting a sore hand from clecoing. I find
the tool to be more cumbersome than the standard cleco pliers, but it is
easier on my hand. I now use the pliers to insert the clecos as I drill,
and then use the air tool to remove tham all at once when I have finished
drilling the skin. I glad I have it, but it doesn't work quite as well as I
had hoped. The major drawback is that it you have to remove the cleco from
the tool using your other hand, the cleco doesn't just fall out like with a
cleco plier. I would say it takes about 3-4 seconds to remove a cleco with
this tool (as compared to the 3 clecoes PER SECOND claimed for another,
$220 cleco tool).
I also bought the "V" type deburring tool from Avery. I don't like it
much. I prefer the swivel tool.
I talked briefly with Mr. Orendorff (the RV construction video guy) and
asked him how his SECOND RV-6A was coming. "Slowly", he replied, "I keep
making NEW mistakes!". Made me feel a bit better.
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Over or under the skin on the elevator |
Gregory W. Ratcliff wrote:
>
> The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the
> skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled).
>
> Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives?
>
> I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure.
>
Oh I don't know, I think it looks just fine UNDER, as called out in
the instructions. I don't think it would make any difference either
way structurally.
A couple of tips here:
1) If you put the strap UNDER the skin, make a u-shaped relief notch in the
skin where it overlaps the strap, maybe 1/4" deep by 3/16" wide. This
alleviates stress there and has a more finished look.
2) When you are ready for final assembly of the skin to the skeleton,
rivet the strap to the skin with solid rivets BEFORE slipping the skin
over the skeleton. This avoids using pop rivets there. I got this
from Frank, it's in his instructions.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister) |
Where can I purchase a copy of the RVator Curt Reimer mentioned? Sounds
interesting.
- Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
I've got plans!! RV-6/6A #23687. I also have three cleco pliers,
three bucking bars, a couple of coutersink stops and countersinks,
and one cleco that Don Wentz gave me. Can I call myself a builder
now?
(Anyone see that turbine powered Glasair? Where do I get the
turbine power kit for the -6? Better increase the size of
the fuel tanks, too, at 20gph at 60% power!)
John H. Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Riveting Rudder and Elevator Spars |
>What is required to rivet to rivet the spar to the skins nicely? I have
>seen plans for a back riveting tool. I don't think the Avery tool works,
>does it? I would need a bigger yoke to do it with my squeezer. Would a 3"
>yoke do it? Is it worth the $70 i.e. will I ever use it again?
There are a few rivets on the elevators that you cannot reach with a 3" yoke.
Actually, it is easy to do a good job of driving these rivets with a gun and
bar. On a more general note, everybody has to find their own preference with
squeezers. Some people cannot make them work at all or feel they can do just as
well with a gun. Some people use them whenever they can but only with a 1" yoke
because they keep bending rivets over when they try to use a 3". Some people
such as myself use a 3" yoke for everything possible. Some squeezers are more
awkward to handle than others (mine is the cheapest one I could find and is
fairly light; it is however marginal for doing 1/8" rivets). Some people are
just better with tools than others. If you don't have any trouble getting good
rivets every time with your 1" yoke you will probably be happy you bought a 3"
yoke. Otherwise, forget it.
The back riveting tool works good but will take considerable effort to make
unless you have access to a machine shop. You will really appreciate it when you
try to drive the last one or two rivets near the trailing edge on the ends of
the elevators and ailerons.
No, the Avery tool won't do it.
>I also bought the "V" type deburring tool from Avery. I don't like it
>much. I prefer the swivel tool.
The "V" tool is just for the outer edges of straight-cut sheets, and it does
work well for that. You just have to get used to how much pressure to apply and
the angle to hold it at so you wind up with cleanly-bevelled edges rather than
a
lot of burrs.
>I talked briefly with Mr. Orendorff (the RV construction video guy) and
>asked him how his SECOND RV-6A was coming. "Slowly", he replied, "I keep
>making NEW mistakes!". Made me feel a bit better.
Now you know why some people build four or five RV's.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu> |
>
> Where can I purchase a copy of the RVator Curt Reimer mentioned? Sounds
> interesting.
>
>
> - Randy
>
Howdy,
I happen to have the info right here. Curt was a little off on the price.
It's $25.95 The book "All those Old RV-Ators" is 230 pages of very good
stuff. It is a compendium of the old RVators. It includes tips, how-to's,
and diagrams from the old RV-Ators. I bought one, only to find out that I had
one sent to me when I arrived home from Oshkosh (I edit the "Rocky Mountain
RVator") I have all of the old RV-Ators and I feel this will be more useful.
First it has been retyped, and laid out in a more easy to read format. There
are sections i.e. Tail building, Wings, Fuselage, even flight testing. It's
complete up to March of 94. Also, all of the info from the RV-Ator is Not
in there, there have been some tips that have become the factory preferred
method of construction, so they are deleted. I also like the method of
binding, its the plastic multi ring type, allows you to open to a page, flop
the book around and keep it on the page you want. All in all it's a good
book, nothing new in it IF you have all of the old RV-Ators. But it's worth
considering for your building library.
How to get it. From Avery or direct from the publisher/author.
"All those Old RV-Ators"
Easy Publishing
328 Luscombe Dr
Los Lunas, NM 87031
(505) 865-3466
$25.95 he takes Plastic too, so you can order by phone. Include
card number and expiration date.
No I'm not getting a take, but mention my name anyway, he did send me a book.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
I got my book from Avery Tools at OSH. There may be other sources.
Does anyone have Avery's phone number and address handy?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Best of RVator |
Avery's number is 817-439-8400
Randall
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | frank(at)SSD.intel.com |
Subject: | Re: Best of RVator |
>Does anyone have Avery's phone number and address handy?
>
>Curt Reimer
817-439-8400
Avery Enterprises
2290 W. Hicks Rd.
Hanger 54-1
Ft. Worth, TX 76131
fax 817-439-8402
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Oshkosh, RV-6B(T), Observations |
Curt Reimer wrote (in part):
> The square horizontal stabilizer [on the RV-6B] is a simplification,
> production status undetermined. To paraphrase Van:" We got tired of answering
> questions about how to jig the various angles in the present tapered
> stabilizer." Yuck! Just when I was hoping for a tapered wing. What next, a
> square vertical stab? Cmon Van, good looks are the reason many of us bought
> your airplane, so sell Frank's instructions instead of redesigning it!
Shhh, don't say that! Just purchase your tail kit before they make the
change, and a few years from now people will only have to take one look to
know you have one of the "cool" original design RVs. :-)
> The slotted flaps were designed to lower the stall speed in an effort to
> meet a certification requirement which apparently is no longer required,
> so I doubt if we'll ever see them again.
Really? I think that would be too bad. It seems to me that as long as the
design doesn't add much extra drag or weight, it would be hard to argue
against a mod that lowers the stall speed. Apparently Eustace Bowhay was
_very_ interested in the slotted flaps since float planes generally depend
on them to lower the stall speed and help get up off the water as quickly as
possible. Assuming the design doesn't add much extra drag or weight, I'd
like to see them offered as an option, especially as I intend to put my
plane on floats some day.
> -One of the questions raised at Van's forum was whether a 4 seat airplane
> was in the works. Van replied that they are looking into it but are unsure
> what the market desires - a 180 HP Cherokee-like machine or a 300 HP
> screamer. At any rate, he does not feel that he could retain the flying
> qualities of the RVs in a 4 place airplane, so he seemed reluctant to do it.
Again, too bad. I would think if Van would build a 4 place with the same
"Total Performance" design philosophy he used in his previous designs it
would be a real winner. It wouldn't have to be the fastest thing in the
sky, nor the best in the bush. Just a good, solid, reasonably fast,
reasonably short take-off and landing 4 place machine.
Randall
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | David.Rodenhiser(at)Corp.Sun.COM (David Rodenhiser) |
Matt,
Was referred to this list by Mark Richardson (richards(at)sofkin.ca).
Could you add me to the RV list?
Thanks,
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | hansen(at)risc.austin.ibm.com (William Hansen) |
subscribe rv-list hansen(at)risc.austin.ibm.com
I'm considering building yet another rv.
Thanks,
__Bill
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Matt:
Please add me to the RV mailing list.
Thanks,
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
barnhart(at)crl.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Matt -
Please sign me up.
Ed Wischmeyer
RV-4 N629EW (for sale)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Andrews Peter F <andrewpf%geds(at)mhsgate.salem.ge.com> |
Please subscribe me to the RV builders list.
Thanks
Pete Andrews
andrews_pf(at)salem.ge.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
Hey! Where did all these new subscribers come from?!
Somebody let the cat out of the bag at Oshkosh or something?
Good to see all the new people. Has Matt asked you to introduce
yourselves yet?
John Henderson
Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
Subject: | RE: New subscribers |
----------
From: John H Henderson
Subject: New subscribers
Date: Wednesday, August 10, 1994 12:08PM
>Hey! Where did all these new subscribers come from?!
>Somebody let the cat out of the bag at Oshkosh or something?
>Good to see all the new people. Has Matt asked you to introduce
>yourselves yet?
>John Henderson
>Dept. of Electrical Engineering
>Auburn University
Hi Folks,
I'm guilty. The question as to whether there was an RV list was asked on
rec.aviation.homebuilt
so I said "Yup", and gave them the address. I've even had a few messages
directly to me
from people on the fence as to what homebuilt to build and why. (You can
guess my reply ;-)
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: | Deene Ogden <deene(at)ibmoto.com> |
Please add me to the rv mailing list. Thanks, Deene.
Email: deene(at)ibmoto.com
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: | Bill Downey <billd(at)ibmoto.com> |
Matt,
Please add me to the RV mailing list.
| Bill Downey International Business Machines |
| SOMERSET Design Center |
| billd(at)ibmoto.com (512) 795-7357 |
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dougm(at)physio.wa.com (Doug Medema) |
Subject: | changing email address |
Matt:
Due to the sale of my company, my email address will
be going through a few gyrations. Please change it
to
dougm(at)physio.wa.com'
for now.
Thanks. Doug M. RV-6A a-building!
P.S. to all: I have the letter written and check made out to order
my wing kit! I'll drop it off at the Post Office
tonight.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rab(at)csg.lbl.gov (Robert Belshe) |
Please add me to the rv mailing list. Thanks.
Bob Belshe
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Is the RV-list mentioned in the rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ? Perhaps it
should be so that new rec.aviators will know about it right away.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au> |
Subject: | Autopilots in RVs |
Has anybody been thinking of putting an autopilot into their RVs?
I'm quite close to skinning my wings and am thinking that this might be
the time to sort this out.
I hadn't been planning to put in an electric aileron trim, but
maybe I should?
The issue really has come to a head now as a friend of mine has
recently replaced the Cessna Auto (wing leveller) from his 1979 Turbo
Skylane RG with an S-Tec. He has all the bits including DG with Bug, and
servo. I know all these to be working fine as I regularly fly this
machine.
Opinions very welcome,
Ray Belbin
6A - tail done, working on wings
Australia.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: New RV-Listers |
> Is the RV-list mentioned in the rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ? Perhaps it
> should be so that new rec.aviators will know about it right away.
>
> Curt Reimer
Sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's rv-list-request(at)matronics.com,
^^^^^^^^
right Matt? (to avoid all these requests getting distributed to the whole
list)
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Pilgrimage to Oregon |
About every two years or so, my better half and I travel to Corevalis
Oregon to visit old friends, have a small re-union, and get back in
touch with a group of people who inhabited 'Old Peak Road' in the late
60s. I was not part of the original group (my wife was), but have been
doing this for the past 10 years or so. Corevalis is slightly west of
Albany, which is about 1 hr south of Portland in I5.
We did this last weekend, and on the way back north to Vancouver, BC,
I dropped my wife off at the Portland airport from where she commenced
a business trip. Needless to say, the rest of my trip home was a
guy's trip, and the first stop was Van's.
It took me about 30 minutes to drive from the Portland Airport to
Van's in the 'one horse town' of North Plains. I had three things on
my todo list:
1) Purchase an electric elevator trim kit,
2) Put a deposit on the -4 Wings
3) Demo ride in a -4
I had called in advance, and was told that weather permitting, the
demo ride should't be a problem.
Another fellow had pulled up at the same time I did. He was driving a
large super clean, white truck with Georgia plates. I assumed the
truck was full of concert sound equipment, but it was actually
full of race car. I wish I had noted his name, but as it turned out he
was also completing the empanage of an RV-4 and was on the same kind
of mission as I was.
Ten inutes later we were at the Sunset (?) airstrip and the RV-4 (s/n
2) was being pushed out, washed off, and pre-flighted.
Bill (Benidict I think) did the honours. This was my first RV ride.
There are several RVs around my home town, and the owners are very
generous of their time, but most are nervous of passenger rides for
liability reasons.
Bill did a great job. The takeoff was about what I expected. Cruise
was also about what I expected. I wasn't expecting to do a loop or
roll, but when he did them I was surprised at the smoothness and
apparent ease. Handling and stick pressure was near perfect. I haven't
flown for more than 10 years now. Most of my time was Aeronca 7DC
Champ hours, and although I can't really compare a 7DC to an RV-4, I
was pleased that the RV wasn't twitchy, or overly sensitive. I was
surprised how slippery the RV is with the nose pointed down. It
accelerated *very* fast. Bill let me do the approach, but sitting in
the back seat I couldn't see the runway after the flaps were down,and
airspeed was down to a bit below 80 indicated and the nose was up.
Bill did the landing which was trickier than I expected. The springy
landing gear seems to bounce you back into the air, and the machine
will fly with a fairly severe nose up attitude. In the Champ, if you
touch the tail first, the mains follow abruptly, the angle of attack
decreases, and you are on the ground. Not necessairly so in the RV. If
the mains bounce you back up, you could be flying again. This is NOT a
complaint, just a 'first timer's' observation -- and perhaps an
incorrect one.
Between the fellow from Georgia, and myself, there were two really big
grins. What a trip!
Bill
(RV-4; Deposit on wings, working on rudder and electric elevator trim)
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Autopilots in RVs |
>
>
> Has anybody been thinking of putting an autopilot into their RVs?
> I'm quite close to skinning my wings and am thinking that this might be
> the time to sort this out.
>
> I hadn't been planning to put in an electric aileron trim, but
> maybe I should?
>
> The issue really has come to a head now as a friend of mine has
> recently replaced the Cessna Auto (wing leveller) from his 1979 Turbo
> Skylane RG with an S-Tec. He has all the bits including DG with Bug, and
> servo. I know all these to be working fine as I regularly fly this
> machine.
>
> Opinions very welcome,
>
> Ray Belbin
> 6A - tail done, working on wings
> Australia.
>
>
Howdy,
It is my intention to put in a wing leveler/ single axis auto pilot from
Navaid Devices. It's a gyro based instrument that fits into your turn
coordinator hole. Has a ball on the bottom, and an electronic indicator for
the normal T/B mech indicator. I have heard from other RV drivers that they
have not been able to tumble the gyro (Navaid makes their own gyros) doing
acro. The gyro drives a geared servo motor that attaches to the bar going
between control sticks on a RV-6 and I haven't inquired about RV-4/3s where
the servo is located, maybe the wing??? Anyhow the gaered servo pushes/
pulls on the control tubes. The servo has a clutch so you can override it
if an emergency happens and you don't have time or presence of mind to
disengage it. The controller is housed inside of the quasi T/B indicator.
You have a choice of: do nothing; level wings; the adjustment to level wings
can be used to induce a bank, right or left; or using the CDI output of your
Nav radio, loran, gps to track a course. The price with RV installation hardware
is a mere? $1200.00... Now the advantage is you don't have to add trim
tabs or motors to the wing, and it can be added after the plane is flying.
I have talked to some RV owners with auto pilots They all like them, S-tec and
the Navaid seem most popular. In the western US we can get some pretty
bumpy air from the thermals. I have found the RVs much less tiring to
control in thermals than say my Bonanza. The stick forces are much less, and
they are more precise on the RV than the Bonanza. The RV folks that use
the auto pilot/wing leveler claim that the ride is easier with the AP on.
Also be aware that the pitch trim is sensitive on the RV-6. A 1/16 turn
on the trim knob can make a big difference in pitch. I would 1) make
the horn on the trim tab longer. 2) Definately use The MATRONICS (the folks
that make this mailer possible) Governor if using electric pitch trim.
OR BOTH...
Final note Dean Hall, EAA director and RV-4 builder Has both rudder and
aileron mac servo trim. He says, "I don't use the rudder trim any more, just
leave it on one setting. The wing trim is ok but I wouldn't do it again."
Van's spring biased trim seems to work for the 4's and 6's. Probably adds
some to the control input, but unless told you wouldn't notice it.
Update on offsetting the verticle stab to the left of center. Dean Hall
offset his to the left 1/4" he told me at Oshkosh that he talked to a couple
of folks that had offset theirs to the left by 3/8" and that seemed to work
just fine. Now if you do offset the vert stab you will have to make your
own fuselage, horizonal/vert stabilizer fairing. (Of course I have heard of
only one in 20 of Van's fairing working, most folks end up making their own)
The address for Navaid Devices, 641 market St., Chattanooga, TN 37405
(615) 267-3311 $1200.00 see ad pg 84 May "Kitplanes"
For article on Dean Halls RV-4 See pg 78 May 94 "Sport Aviation"
I am not connected with Navaid Devices, materially, technically, manually, or
electronically. Just spreading the word.
My $.02 off (for Now)
Doug Bloomberg
Without a job, just reading email and working on the RV (with a vacation to OSH)RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu> |
Subject: | help to get a Canadian RV builder on the list... |
Howdy,
I recieved this from a RV builder in Canada that I met at Van's Banquet.
Matt, can we add him to the list?
Thanks
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
> From <(at)mail.uunet.ca:terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com> Wed Aug 10 14:13:33 1994
> To: dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu
> Subject: mailing list
> From: terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com (Terrance Jantzi)
> Message-Id: <60.61570.104.0C1A9CBE(at)canrem.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 14:57:00 -0400
> Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario)
>
> Doug,
>
> Sorry for bugging you twice in one day. I have tried to subscribe to the
> RV mailing list but need some more info. The BBS that provides my
> internet service does not allow private subscriptions. I have to submit
> a request to them and they might carry it as a public resource.
>
> Anyway I need the 1: full name of the internet mailing list
> 2: the request address (you gave me that)
> 3: submissions address
>
> Thanks.
>
> Terry
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
Subject: | Re: New RV-Listers |
----------
From: randall
Subject: Re: New RV-Listers
Date: Thursday, August 11, 1994 10:18AM
>Sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's rv-list-request(at)matronics.com,
> ^^^^^^^^
>right Matt? (to avoid all these requests getting distributed to the whole
>list)
As Homer Simpson would say, DOH! |-( (thats supposed to be Homer with
closed eyes!)
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
>2) OK - what is the net wisdom on available wood props? In other words,
>whose should I buy and why?
>
Surely somebody in this august body of knowledge must have some opinions on
the above matter...
Thanks for any wisdom on the subject.
Richard
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Autopilots in RVs |
On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Ray Belbin wrote:
> Has anybody been thinking of putting an autopilot into their RVs?
> I'm quite close to skinning my wings and am thinking that this might be
> the time to sort this out.
I don't remember the name of the company (I have their brochure at
home) but they make a nice wing leveler/auto pilot for homebuilts which
was written up in Kitplanes a few months ago. I had a look at the unit at
Oshkosh, and it looked pretty good.
The basic details: The unit replaces a standard sized turn co-ordinator in
the panel. The panel controls are a function switch, an aileron trim knob
and a turn knob (for making turns with the autopilot on) as well as an
electronic LED turn rate indicator and a conventional skid/slip indicator
ball. The servo mechanism is designed to connect directly to the aileron
control cables or push pull rod. Whatever aileron trim sysem you install
will be completely independant of the auto pilot system, so you can use
electric, manual or none at all, if you wish.
When the unit is OFF, the servo is declutched and swivels freely. It
doesn't seem to impede control movement in any way. When the unit is in
wing leveler mode, you trim it level using the TRIM knob. You use the TURN
knob to make course corrections, etc. (The manufacturer claimed to fly a
standard circuit using only the TURN knob.) When set to the NAV setting,
the unit is coupled to a GPS or LORAN and will fly a preset course. I
don't know the details, but apparantly only 2 wires are used for the
connection. You can override the unit at any time in flight; it will
automatically declutch the servo.
This autopilot is NOT intended for IFR or low altitude flight. The servo is
much faster responding than a certified autopilot. This makes it work
better for cross country flying in turbulence, but it also means that an
autopilot malfunction causing a control-hard over could happen so quickly
that you could lose several thousand feet before recovery (In VFR!)
Looking at the quality of construction, it looks fine but by no means is it
ultra rugged or bulletproof. They suggest a minimum gyro motor life of 100
hours or so. Price is around $1200. I plan to buy one, or something like
it, when the time comes.
Incidentally, this company has an altitude-hold autopilot also in the
works. It will be an independant system.
I will dig up the brochure and give you the address.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu> |
>
>
> >2) OK - what is the net wisdom on available wood props? In other words,
> >whose should I buy and why?
> >
>
> Surely somebody in this august body of knowledge must have some opinions on
> the above matter...
>
> Thanks for any wisdom on the subject.
>
> Richard
>
> Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
> Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
> Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
> FORE Systems
> 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
> Bethesda, MD 20817
>
>
>
Howdy Richard,
Folks around here are taking off their props (Pacesetter, Rheim, Warnke) and
putting on Aymar-Demuth (410) 461-4329 props. They are located in your
neck of the woods. Ellicott City, MD
I talked to one of the fellows at the RV Forum in Frederick a couple years
ago. Seemed interesting, has an imbedded metal strip on the leading edge,
thats covered with an epoxy. He measures the pitch via the chord line of the
props airfoil. Also remember they having their own prop extention which
has a larger surface where the prop attaches.
Here 'bouts RV, Thorp, Sidwinder, and Mustang flyers have switched over. They
all report faster cruise at same fuel burn rate as previous.
Even old Larry Vetterman is taking his constant speed off his RV-4 and putting
on a Aymar-Demuth Prop.
So it seems the best buy right now, only problem is they are backlogged.
So you could borrow a prop till your A-D comes
Take care,
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | paulf(at)eos.ncsu.edu |
Please add my subscription to this list.
I've been thinking of forming a partnership
to buy a used RV-6 or similar. (Though the
RV-4 is nice its baggage capacity with 2 people
seems a little on the low side.) From what I've
seen so far, it looks like a terrific plane!
Any potential partners in the Raleigh area out
there who are interested?
Any random thoughts on this idea also appreciated.
Thanks and Regards,
Paul Franzon
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu (Jim McDonald) |
Mark,
Please put me on the RV mailing list.
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | <yourloginnameonmcopn1(at)lesol1.dseg.ti.com>(at)mcopn1.dseg.ti.com (<Your Name>) |
Please add me to the RV mailing list.
Brad Fennell
402 Gettysburg
Mesquite, Tx 75149
(214) 288-0076
email: fenn(at)msg.ti.com
Building RV-4 - Empennage complete, wing kit should arrive 9/5/94
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Tools to buy .... |
Hi RV folks,
For once I was ahead of the pack!!! I bought a SmartLevel,
an electronic, digital "bubble" level, one week before Tony Bingelis
reccommended it in his latest Sport Aviation column.
It is as good as advertised, and is accurate, even when
dropped (guess how I found out?). I bought the Sensor Module (about $80)
and the 2 foot frame (about $20). I have been using the two foot measure
resting on top of an old 6 foot Stanley spirit level, and the difference is
amazing. No parallax error, no interpretation of bubbles about zero, and
EXACT readout of angle to 0.1 degrees, or 0.1% slope ( +/- 0.012 inches
over the 24 inch length). It can easily be re-calibrated at any time. The
interesting thing was that the old spirit level had 3 indicating vials, and
none of them agreed!!
I am finding it excellent to set up my fuselage jig, and am
going out now (lunch hour) to buy a 6 foot frame (about $25). The Sensor
Module is interchangeable between frame in the more expensive "Pro" model.
A 2 foot, non-interchangeable sensor version is about $50.
In calling various harware stores and home supply places in
LA, I found the stock to vary, some carried frames only, and some carried
the sensor module, and were out of stock of frames. Only Orchard Supply
Hardware (new to our area) mentioned that there is now a $20 rebate offer
from the manufacturer, so if you buy one now, get the rebate coupon!!
Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ... levelling away!!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Nigel Kirlew <anto(at)gate.net> |
I'd like to join the RV email list.
Thanks,
Nigel Kirlew
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)ch2m1.attmail.com |
Has anyone ever thought of this?
a. Some people wish Van would build a 4-place machine.
b. The RV-4 kinda looks like a P-51 (even more when you edit-out the gear
on that bitmap so that it looks like a retract!)
c. Remeber the twin Mustangs?
How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit....
I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight...
Steve Kimura
CH2M Hill
Corvallis OR
skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
(503) 757-8507 x5356
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden) |
Subject: | Tools to buy ... |
>Hi RV folks,
> For once I was ahead of the pack!!! I bought a SmartLevel,
>an electronic, digital "bubble" level, one week before Tony Bingelis
>reccommended it in his latest Sport Aviation column.
>
> It is as good as advertised, and is accurate, even when
>dropped (guess how I found out?). I bought the Sensor Module (about $80)
>and the 2 foot frame (about $20). I have been using the two foot measure
>resting on top of an old 6 foot Stanley spirit level, and the difference is
>amazing. No parallax error, no interpretation of bubbles about zero, and
>EXACT readout of angle to 0.1 degrees, or 0.1% slope ( +/- 0.012 inches
>over the 24 inch length). It can easily be re-calibrated at any time. The
>interesting thing was that the old spirit level had 3 indicating vials, and
>none of them agreed!!
>
> I am finding it excellent to set up my fuselage jig, and am
>going out now (lunch hour) to buy a 6 foot frame (about $25). The Sensor
>Module is interchangeable between frame in the more expensive "Pro" model.
>A 2 foot, non-interchangeable sensor version is about $50.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the one I bought, after two normal aluminum frame levels that
couldn't be trusted. Everything that Gil says above is true! It makes
life much simpler. Wish I'd had it for my horiz stab.
> In calling various harware stores and home supply places in
>LA, I found the stock to vary, some carried frames only, and some carried
>the sensor module, and were out of stock of frames. Only Orchard Supply
>Hardware (new to our area) mentioned that there is now a $20 rebate offer
>from the manufacturer, so if you buy one now, get the rebate coupon!!
>
> Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ... levelling away!!
I've seen them regularly at Home Depot and Builder's Square.
Dave Bonorden
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
This idea was floated as an April Fool's joke in the RVator a couple of
years ago.
Actually it would make a great one-of-a-kind plane for someone with too
much money and time to build for Oshkosh.
Fitting dual controls would be a problem however...
Richard
>Has anyone ever thought of this?
>
>a. Some people wish Van would build a 4-place machine.
>b. The RV-4 kinda looks like a P-51 (even more when you edit-out the gear
> on that bitmap so that it looks like a retract!)
>c. Remeber the twin Mustangs?
>
>How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit....
>
>I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight...
>
>
>Steve Kimura
>CH2M Hill
>Corvallis OR
>skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
>(503) 757-8507 x5356
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Avery back riveting plate |
I purchased the Avery arm, dimpling dies, rivet sets, the back
riveting plate and a few other odds and ends. I had the stuff drop
shipped to a friend in the USA, and brought it home last weekend.
My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but
it isn't very smooth. How smooth is smooth enough? I find that when I
use the avery back riveting set in my rivet gun, on 3/32 flush rivets
with the factory head against the plate, the pattern on the plate gets
transferred to the rivet head and the surrounding sheet metal (< 1/16
inch around the rivet). It doesn't look right to me.
Has anyone else had this happen? The thing is so heavy its probably
not worth returning -- especially across the border. Am I being too picky?
--
Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
On Fri, 12 Aug 1994 ch2m1.attmail.com!CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit....
>
> I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight...
>
>
> Steve Kimura
I think that's been done. (In mind, anyway.) I understand that's
what the fictional RV-8 was. I saw an RV-8 mentioned in Randall's
RVator index, and wondered what it was. When I was at Van's,
I asked Andy, like an idiot, what the RV-8 was. He explained
to me that it was a joke. (He was pointing out the remains
of the RV-5 to me at that time.)
Why did you guys let me go ask a dumb question like that?
John H. Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
I'd love to see someone (else) do the P-38 thing with a couple of RV-4s.
Funny as it was when it was first "announced", it still seems like it would
be a pretty cool airplane (minus the Apache retractable gear and radios... :-)
> This idea was floated as an April Fool's joke in the RVator a couple of
> years ago.
>
> Actually it would make a great one-of-a-kind plane for someone with too
> much money and time to build for Oshkosh.
>
> Fitting dual controls would be a problem however...
>
> Richard
>
>
> >Has anyone ever thought of this?
> >
> >a. Some people wish Van would build a 4-place machine.
> >b. The RV-4 kinda looks like a P-51 (even more when you edit-out the gear
> > on that bitmap so that it looks like a retract!)
> >c. Remeber the twin Mustangs?
> >
> >How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit....
> >
> >I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight...
> >
> >
> >Steve Kimura
> >CH2M Hill
> >Corvallis OR
> >skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com
> >(503) 757-8507 x5356
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au> |
Tsk! Tsk! Don't forget the arrestor hook!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(A previous suggestion from another RV-Netter)
Ray Belbin's 2 rivets worth!
> I'd love to see someone (else) do the P-38 thing with a couple of RV-4s.
> Funny as it was when it was first "announced", it still seems like it would
> be a pretty cool airplane (minus the Apache retractable gear and radios... :-)
>
> > This idea was floated as an April Fool's joke in the RVator a couple of
> > years ago.
> >
> > Actually it would make a great one-of-a-kind plane for someone with too
> > much money and time to build for Oshkosh.
> >
> > Fitting dual controls would be a problem however...
> >
> > Richard
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
John,
Don't trust any RVator drawings date 4-1-XX !! ..... Gil Alexander
>>
>> How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit....
>>
>> I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight...
>>
>>
>> Steve Kimura
>
>I think that's been done. (In mind, anyway.) I understand that's
>what the fictional RV-8 was. I saw an RV-8 mentioned in Randall's
>RVator index, and wondered what it was. When I was at Van's,
>I asked Andy, like an idiot, what the RV-8 was. He explained
>to me that it was a joke. (He was pointing out the remains
>of the RV-5 to me at that time.)
>
>Why did you guys let me go ask a dumb question like that?
>
>John H. Henderson
>Department of Electrical Engineering
>Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
anchor.cs.colorado.edu!dougb(at)matronics.com
I too edit a newsletter (Portland RVators) and received a copy along
with a request to pass-out order cards, etc. Before I was willing to
do so I checked with Van's: Ken Scott said they worked with the guy a
little and agree that it is a nice piece of work, well done and
laid-out. I agree too, it is a nice piece of reference/historical
work. They also told him they wouldn't endorse it until he gave them
proof of some qty pre-printed (to avoid another 'RV yearbook' fiasco).
I recommend it.
don w.
>
> Where can I purchase a copy of the RVator Curt Reimer mentioned? Sounds
> interesting.
>
>
> - Randy
>
Howdy,
How to get it. From Avery or direct from the publisher/author.
"All those Old RV-Ators"
Easy Publishing
328 Luscombe Dr
Los Lunas, NM 87031
(505) 865-3466
$25.95 he takes Plastic too, so you can order by phone. Include
card number and expiration date.
No I'm not getting a take, but mention my name anyway, he did send me a book.
Doug Bloomberg
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Claudio's dilemma |
Claudio, I am sure it was Rion who wrote this great response to
your questions. I have to agree with Rion: The -4 IS sportier,
faster, better aerobatically, better visibility, less costly, etc. I
disagree that adding wing lockers to a -6 is a good idea, UNLESS you
plan lots of single pilot ops, as the -6 would really get overwieght.
Wing-tip lockers on the -4 are a great idea for increasing your
baggage capacity, and are showing-up more and more.
Rion was copilot on a 2 ship RV-6 mission to Oshkosh with myself and
my copilot Doug Miner. Now that I have spent 67 hours in my new RV-6,
including cross country, limited formation flying, etc., my
recommendation is: if SPORT flying is your main mission, build a -4.
If side-by-side seating and baggage are more important, build a -6A.
Rion's comment about a -6A having a 'Grumman-like appearance' only
holds true if you are on the ground watching one fly over. Air to
Air, the -6A is still a sleek, fast looking airplane, MUCH more so
than any Grumman ever thought of being (sorry Frank). Why a -6A over
a -6? Because they are easier (xlated: SAFER) to land/taxi. Period.
don wentz. (Just back from Disney World (what a letdown after flying
an RV)! I miss my airplane...)
In deciding which two-seat RV to build, a logical approach
would be to list the relative advantages and disadvantages of each
in relation to the other two-seater RV models. I would assume
Claudio and any other prospective RV builder has already used a
similar process to eliminate other manufacturers' kits. I would
propose the following as a list of the relative advantages and
disadvantages of the RV-4 vs. the RV-6s, and then theh RV-6 vs.
theh RV-6A.
RV-4 vs. RV-6s:
RV-4
Advantages: faster, sexier, better visibility, better
acrobatics due to pilot sitting on center line, less expensive to
build, and more fun to stand beside at fly-ins.
Disadvantages: cramped rear seat, less baggage capacity,
less range.
RV-6s
Advantages: more comfort for passenger/co-pilot, tremendous
baggage capacity (two lawn chairs no problem), room for IFR panel,
more range. Float conversion already available for the -6.
Disadvantages: less visibility to the right, looks less like
a P-51, more expensive kit, pilot sits offset to one side or the
other.
Comments: I understand the float kit for the RV-4 is in the
works. The range can be equalized by building RV-6 tanks on the
RV-4. The baggage differential can be reduced, but not eliminated,
by installing storage lockers in the RV-4 wing tips. Of course,
storage lockers in the RV-6 tips restores the differential. Bottom
line is that the RV-6 is more convenient for camping, and more
comfortable for the passenger, but the RV-4 is more fun for the
pilot to fly due to the tandem seating. A serious question to
consider is how big is your spouse, whether or not your spouse will
be happy riding in the back, and if your spouse is a pilot, whether
or not you will be happy riding in the back. I have only flown in
the back seat of an RV-4, and much prefer the right seat of the RV-
6 to the back seat of the RV-4. But I fly a Champion 7ECA
(Citabria) taildragger regularly, and much prefer the tandem
seating arrangement to side-by-side due to the differences in
visibility and the feel of the airplane. I really like being able
to see the ground equally on both sides. In a side-by-side
airplane, I always feel like I'm missing something. Most of my
flying will be sport flying, I have always traveled light, and my
wife is not a pilot. I will not have to fly in the back seat of my
RV-4. So I chose the RV-4.
RV-6 vs. RV-6A:
RV-6
Advantages: the tail-dragger looks better, is lighter and
slightly faster, and is cheaper to build. The float conversion is
already available.
Disadvantages: the tail-dragger is harder to land.
RV-6A
Advantages: the trike is easier to land, and has better
visibility taxiing.
Disadvantages: the trike is a tad heavier, a tad slower, and
can be mistaken from a distance for a Grumman product.
Comments: I don't believe the RV-6 can be used on appreciably
rougher fields than the -6A, at least not with the standard sized
main wheels. I have never landed my Citabria on a field an RV-6A
could not handle. I don't think rough fields are an issue here,
but I am no bush pilot.
I have flown in both the -6 and the -6A, and I can't tell the
difference in flight. I can sure tell the difference taxiing and
landing: the -6A is easier to land, and has better taxiing
visibility at slow speeds. I think the major advantage of the -6
over the -6A is looks. The -6 is no more fun to fly than the -6A
unless you like the challenge of landing the taildragger. If you
haven't flown taildraggers in the past, you could transition very
quickly into the RV-6A, but will need some serious training before
you fly the RV-4 or RV-6.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Over or under the skin on the elevator |
I did it the way Frank/Randall suggested, I think it worked/looks just
fine.
don w.
Gregory W. Ratcliff wrote:
>
> The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the
> skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled).
>
> Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives?
>
> I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure.
>
Oh I don't know, I think it looks just fine UNDER, as called out in
the instructions. I don't think it would make any difference either
way structurally.
A couple of tips here:
1) If you put the strap UNDER the skin, make a u-shaped relief notch in the
skin where it overlaps the strap, maybe 1/4" deep by 3/16" wide. This
alleviates stress there and has a more finished look.
2) When you are ready for final assembly of the skin to the skeleton,
rivet the strap to the skin with solid rivets BEFORE slipping the skin
over the skeleton. This avoids using pop rivets there. I got this
from Frank, it's in his instructions.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
On Fri, 12 Aug 1994, Gil Alexander wrote:
> John,
> Don't trust any RVator drawings date 4-1-XX !! ..... Gil Alexander
>
>
>
I had never seen the article. I'm sure (I hope) that I wouldn't have
been duped if I had seen it and had any idea what an RV-8 was.
Hey, Don,
When are we going to see pictures of 790DW in front of Mt. St. Helens
in Sport Aviation, Kitplanes or the RVator?
John H. Henderson
Department of Electrical Engineering
Auburn University
________________________________________________________________________________
Sat, 13 Aug 94 21:15:06 GMT+2
From: | "Charles Crosby" <CROS-CP(at)fanella.ee.up.ac.za> |
John Henderson said:
> >When I was at Van's,
> >I asked Andy, like an idiot, what the RV-8 was. He explained
> >to me that it was a joke. (He was pointing out the remains
> >of the RV-5 to me at that time.)
Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but what are the 'missing' RV's,
the RV-2 and RV-5?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John Perrin <perrin(at)sofkin.ca> |
Subject: | Re: Avery Back Rivetting Plate |
Bill
I too found the machining on the back riveting plate to be a little
too rough for my liking. I took some wet sandpaper to it (320, 400 then
600), added some elbow grease and now it looks like a mirror (keep the
surface wet when sanding) . Much better. Just make sure you keep
it covered or keep some WD-40 on it when its not in use - I found that
mine would rust very quickly, the humidity is bad here (Ottawa), and
I'd imagine you'd have the same problem out there in god's country.
cheers
John Perrin
RV-4 2473 scattered about the workshop.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | Re: Please change my address on rv-list and at Matronics |
Hi Doug!
>--------------
> Howdy Matt,
>
> The list grows! How many folks are part of our RV mailer?
Its about at 75 right now. I just added about 5-6 this week!
>
> How many can you handle?
>
Unlimited, at this point.
> I, for one, am glad that you still are taking the time to adm. the RV
> mailer. THANKS!!!
Well, you're certainly welcome. It's really great to see all the excellent
building tips and general builder excitment on the list. Makes it worth it!
>
> I have heard from one of the new folks and they asked for a FAQ. Seems that
> I remember a FTP site with the archeives of the mailer. But, I forgot
> where that is. Maybe a re-posting.
I can email the compressed/uuencoded back postings to whoever would like them.
I would really like to get a direct Internet connection. I would like to add
a RV-LIST Mosaic Home page!!!! I am looking into getting Internet directly
to replace the UUCP, but its pretty costly. Perhaps with ISDN coming soon,
the prices will drop.
> I also noticed "Sport Aviation" printed a mailer for Kitfoxes, maybe
> a quick letter to "SA" and we could get more input. The choice is
> yours, you do all of the work.
What is this you are talking about? I don't understand?
>
> Second point. I received a flyer from Matronics about the Gov'ner. I intend
> to buy one! But it had my incorrect address.
>
> Correct address: xxxxxxxxxx
> xxxxxxxxxx
GREAT! Please buy one and tell all your friends! That mailer went out to
about 1620 RV builders, mostly in CA, OR, and WA. The more people that know
about it the better! Thank you for the business.
>
> Thanks so much for the work you have done!
You're welcome, but the pleasure has been all mine!
>
> Blue skies ands Tailwinds.
>
> Doug Bloomberg
> RV-6A
>
>--------------
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | New RV-Listers.... |
>--------------
>
> > Is the RV-list mentioned in the rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ? Perhaps it
> > should be so that new rec.aviators will know about it right away.
> >
> > Curt Reimer
>
> Sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's rv-list-request(at)matronics.com,
> ^^^^^^^^
> right Matt? (to avoid all these requests getting distributed to the whole
> list)
>
> Randall
>--------------
Yes!! Most definately! New additions to the list that are sent to the list
don't get handled until I read through all of my mail. Sometimes I can't get
to that for 2-3 weeks.
Requests sent to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com will get handled much quicker.
Thank you for the support.
Matt Drlale
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Re: Avery back riveting plate |
I used the surface of my Sears table saw to back rivet the elevator skins,
etc. and did not experince any transfer of the "roughness" of the tabel top
to the skin. The table saw is milled flat but not really "smooth". I
intend to paint my airplane so I expect any minor imperfections on the
skins to be removed by the 400 grit wet 'n dry surface preparation. Maybe
if I was going to leave it polished aluminum I would have polished my table
top first.
Richard
>I purchased the Avery arm, dimpling dies, rivet sets, the back
>riveting plate and a few other odds and ends. I had the stuff drop
>shipped to a friend in the USA, and brought it home last weekend.
>
>My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but
>it isn't very smooth. How smooth is smooth enough? I find that when I
>use the avery back riveting set in my rivet gun, on 3/32 flush rivets
>with the factory head against the plate, the pattern on the plate gets
>transferred to the rivet head and the surrounding sheet metal (< 1/16
>inch around the rivet). It doesn't look right to me.
>
>Has anyone else had this happen? The thing is so heavy its probably
>not worth returning -- especially across the border. Am I being too picky?
>
>
>--
>Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
>Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
>bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
Subject: | Inspection cover, #6 plate nut source? |
Hi all,
I've been working on the inspection opening on bottom of the wing and ran
into the "Gosh, 3/8 in. is really too narrow for the dimension of the
overlap of the cover and reinforcing ring for those giant #8 screws..."
Of course, I realized this after all of the parts were made and drilled
to the skins (I hadn't seen Frank's instructions at the time...)
After trying some #8 dimples 3/16" from the edge in practice pieces, it
was clear to me #8 hardware could not be used without distorting the
edges of the pieces. So, after verifying it with Van's, I decided that
using #6 hardware would probably work ok (If doing it over, I'd make
the flange 1/2" or so instead of 3/8"). Now for the question...
The material is too thin to machine countersink (particularly the
wing spar flange) so dimpling will be required. The problem is I can't
seem to find a source for #6 plate nuts with the recess built in for
the back of the dimple. I'm guessing the part number would be K1100-06
since K1100-08 is the part number for the #8s in the kit. I checked the
Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, and Alexander catalogs but they don't carry these.
I suppose I could add some doublers to the pieces so I could machine
countersink and use the regular K1000 plate nuts, but that seems kind of
kludgey and a fair amount of work. Any ideas for a source of these K1100-06
plate nuts? Or any other ideas on how to deal with this problem?
Maybe I should just bite the bullet and order new metal and redo the whole
assembly... I didn't realize the inspection plate cover assembly was going to
turn into a major project. My goal of completing this thing in time to
celebrate the 100th anniversary of powered flight is in jeopardy!
BTW - The person I spoke to at Van's said the reason #8 hardware was
called out for in the plans was to limit it to one size for the whole
kit to keep the cost down.
Another question - what is the limit on how thick a piece of material
can be dimpled?
Thanks
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A (eventually)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
> Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but what are the 'missing' RV's,
> the RV-2 and RV-5?
>
I don't know about the RV-2, but the RV-5 was an experiment by Van.
If I recall correctly what Andy told me, it was swing-wing
motorglider that used a Rotax engine. The wing could swing for
moving/storage. It naturally had a flat top for the wing
to swing over. It is now hanging from the rafters of Van's
hangar at Sunset strip.
Maybe somebody else has more details.
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
> I would really like to get a direct Internet connection. I would like to add
> a RV-LIST Mosaic Home page!!!!
For everyone with mosaic, check out the RV page maintained by
Michael Goldsmith. The URL is:
http://matrix.ssd.intel.com:8008/~mag/rv-builder.html
It currently contains Frank Justice's RV-6 construction procedures
and Randall Henderson's RVator index (which I converted to HTML
for mosaic. BTW, Randall and I are not related as far as I know.).
Michael is looking into other things, too.
Perhaps we can add Matt's list of RV-listers.
John Henderson
RV-6 23687
BTW, I was once under the impression that there was a different set
of plans for the -6 and -6A. My set contains plans for both.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Allison <stevea(at)svpal.org> |
Understand you are maintaining an RV builders/owners list. Could you add
me to the list. Let me know if you need any other information.
Thanks,
Steve Allison
RV-6A....empennage kit in process
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Avery back riveting plate |
> My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but
> it isn't very smooth. How smooth is smooth enough? I find that when I
> use the avery back riveting set in my rivet gun, on 3/32 flush rivets
> with the factory head against the plate, the pattern on the plate gets
> transferred to the rivet head and the surrounding sheet metal (< 1/16
> inch around the rivet). It doesn't look right to me.
>
> Has anyone else had this happen? The thing is so heavy its probably
> not worth returning -- especially across the border. Am I being too picky?
>
> --
> Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support,
> Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
> bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML
>
This doesn't sound so good. Mine shows milling marks but is smooth enough
that nothing transfers to the skin. There definitely shouldn't be any
transfer of pattern to your skin. I'd return it to Avery and ask them
to pay for shipping. Unless you know someone who has a milling machine,
it would be easy to machine it flat of you have access to one of those.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Inspection cover, #6 plate nut source? |
Regarding using #6 screws with dimpled skin:
I've seen a lot of Art Chard's work and in several places he's just added
a little .040 or so spacer under each platenut and countersunk that (like
Tom described), so if you do it that way at least you'll be in good company.
Does seem kind of kludgy to me too, and not as easy if you can find #6 dimpled
plate nuts, but if not it would get the job done, and hey, it doesn't show
anyway.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been working on the inspection opening on bottom of the wing and ran
> into the "Gosh, 3/8 in. is really too narrow for the dimension of the
> overlap of the cover and reinforcing ring for those giant #8 screws..."
> Of course, I realized this after all of the parts were made and drilled
> to the skins (I hadn't seen Frank's instructions at the time...)
> After trying some #8 dimples 3/16" from the edge in practice pieces, it
> was clear to me #8 hardware could not be used without distorting the
> edges of the pieces. So, after verifying it with Van's, I decided that
> using #6 hardware would probably work ok (If doing it over, I'd make
> the flange 1/2" or so instead of 3/8"). Now for the question...
> The material is too thin to machine countersink (particularly the
> wing spar flange) so dimpling will be required. The problem is I can't
> seem to find a source for #6 plate nuts with the recess built in for
> the back of the dimple. I'm guessing the part number would be K1100-06
> since K1100-08 is the part number for the #8s in the kit. I checked the
> Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, and Alexander catalogs but they don't carry these.
> I suppose I could add some doublers to the pieces so I could machine
> countersink and use the regular K1000 plate nuts, but that seems kind of
> kludgey and a fair amount of work. Any ideas for a source of these K1100-06
> plate nuts? Or any other ideas on how to deal with this problem?
> Maybe I should just bite the bullet and order new metal and redo the whole
> assembly... I didn't realize the inspection plate cover assembly was going to
> turn into a major project. My goal of completing this thing in time to
> celebrate the 100th anniversary of powered flight is in jeopardy!
>
> BTW - The person I spoke to at Van's said the reason #8 hardware was
> called out for in the plans was to limit it to one size for the whole
> kit to keep the cost down.
>
> Another question - what is the limit on how thick a piece of material
> can be dimpled?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom Goeddel
> RV-6A (eventually)
> t.goeddel(at)att.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
RV6 builders,
I have a fuselage question.
I have put the first bend in my upper fuselage longerons,
and as I place them on the jig, I notice that a twist is needed in them
from the wing spar bulkhead (F604) to the firewall (F601), and that this
twist is quite noticeable.
Does this twist have to be bent into the longerons, or can
it be "persuaded" into position as the bulkheads are jigged into place???
... and if it has to be "persuaded", does this put a large load onto the
firewall fitting, needing large C-clamps, both at the longeron attach
fittings and for clamping it (F601) to the jig???
Neither the instructions, or the RV6 fuselage video seem to
address this bend.
thanks for any help ...
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com |
Please include me on the distribution of the RV mailing list.
Thanks.
Either;
sikjes(at)rcinet.utc.com
or
sleigh%tvax01(at)utrcgw.utc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Avery back riveting plate |
>> My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but
June 03, 1994 - August 15, 1994
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ae