RV-Archive.digest.vol-ae

June 03, 1994 - August 15, 1994



      
      Frank J.
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Fuel tanks, pro-seal, etc.
Regarding pro-seal in the fuel-tanks: In the plans, where it shows how to build the rib with a flop tube, it shows the notches at the aft bottom corner of the #2 rib being left open. Does anyone know if this is supposed to be specifically for tanks with a flop tube, and specifically in the #2 rib only? It seems to me it'd be a good idea either way since it would probably ensure a path through the lowest part of the tank, thus maximizing useable fuel, but it seems like it would be difficult to do this and still get plenty of pro-seal around the adjacent flanges. Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 03, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: A few questions...
>Is this kind of what you are describing, or am I missing something? >Do you put any spacer between the bars at the yoke end to keep the >bars square, or is the angle of no consequence? > > /-------\ > / \ > / ---- \ > / / \ \ > | | | | > |--| | | > /------------------------------| | | > / bar | |yoke | >|--------------------------------| | | > | (rivet) screw | | > / \ screw | | >|--------------------------------| | | > \ bar | | | > \------------------------------| | | > |--| | | > | | | | > \ \ / / > \ ---- / > \ / > ---------- > >(Sorry for the crude ascii picture.) >Thanks again for the help. >Tom Goeddel >t.goeddel(at)att.com That's it, and yes, put about a #10 screw between the beaks inside the yoke to make them squeeze exactly flat against the rivet. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: A few questions...
** stuff deleted ** >2. Any tricks to riveting flush rivets in an area where a squeezer won't fit >or reach, and a normal flush rivet set won't fit either? ** stuff deleted ** I use a special yoke in my pnuematic squeezer that does not need a rivet set in the stationary part. You squeeze the rivet directly against the top of the C-yoke (there's no 3/16 inch hole in the yoke of course!). The top is also drastically tapered to get into those small places (the narrow end of the aileron ribs .. etc.). I think I end up using this C-yoke more than the standard one (the one using two rivet sets) that usually comes with the pnuematic squeezer. I got mine from Sid Goldin in Visalia, CA (see details in an earlier posting), but I've seen them advertised elsewhere. happy squeezing ... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 03, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Westach Instruments (was: Fuel Sender - gauge compatibility)
** stuff deleted ** >Great write-up Gil! I've been wondering whether to exchange my "standard" >fuel gauges for a dual Westach - this kind of info is what a person needs >to help decide. > >One thing you said caught my eye -- you said that "Internal lighting is >available cheaply. I guess that means it's not standard with the Westach? >How does the option work then, and just what does it cost? I know we're not >talking much $$ here, just wondering, since the ones from Vans come with >lights already built in. > >One bit of info I'll add is that when I flew recently with a friend in his >RV-6 I noticed he had a Westach dual fuel gauge, and when I asked him about >it he told me it was the 3rd one he got - the first two were bad right out of >the box. He seemed to think Westach stuff in general wasn't too high quality. >Of course that's just one opinion, so take it for what it's worth. > >Randall Henderson >RV-6 building the fuel tanks -- sheesh! Randall, I have not bought the internal lighting yet, but it appears to be a bulb assembly that is inserted through a hole in the rear of the instrument. The gauge has a removeable plug for this assembly. The price is listed in the Aircraft Spruce catalog ... same bulb assembly fits all of their 2 1/4 inch instruments. I don't know about quality problems, and have heard some of the same stuff you have. However, if you look in Sport Aviation at the panels of the award winning planes, you can see a lot of them use Westach instruments, even in the dual and quad arrangements, which I would suspect to have a lower reliability due to more moving parts. QUESTION TO THE RV-LIST Does anyone have more factual data (good or bad) on the reliability of Westach instruments?? .... if so, please post. thanks ..... Gil Alexander RV6A, #20701 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 06, 1994
Subject: Russelville RV gathering
Is anyone on this list besides me going to the Russelville, AL RV gathering listed in RVator besides me? (Anyone on the list in the Southeast beside me?) This will be my first chance to see an RV in person, and I'm told that chances are I'll get a ride in one. Even though this will not be as big an event as those you have on the left coast, I'm really looking forward to it. (and my trip to Van's later this month.) John Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Rivets too short/Progress Report
Having just finished skinning one side of my vertical stabilizer I am wondering if I should have used longer rivets. The plans call for #3-3.5s, which are supplied in abundance. However, I chose to dimple my skin, as the book recommends, only to find that a 3.5 rivet was now just a hair too short, according to my rivet gauge. So, I used 'em anyway, but many of my shopheads are marginal in terms of finished height. I decided to use some of my limited supply of 3-4s to do the edge rivets, and these came out beautifully ( The squeezer is a joy to use on the #3 rivets, unlike the #4s). The rear spar/skin fastening rivets were countersunk and these worked out fine. I wonder why the book recommends dimpleing, then recommends and supplies rivets which seem to be inappropriate? Anyway, I have a friend coming over to help tonight, so I'll probably replace most of the 3.5s, just for peace of mind. Anyone else have any comments on selecting rivet lengths? I think from now on I will not use any rivet that is shorter that the rivet gauge minimum, regardless of what the plans say. But the good news is that otherwise the vertical stabilizer is complete, almost. I am supposed to leave one side of the skin unriveted until the airworthiness inspector can inspect it. Anyway, it is pretty neat to take it out of the jig and just look at it, lift it up, show the neighbors, etc. A genuine chunk of airplane! I'm really starting to enjoy the building process even more than I thought I would. This metalworking is fun! You know, every night I fall asleep not by counting sheep, but by imagining myself in the cockpit making that first glorious flight! Curt Reimer One Happy RV Building Dude RV6 #23490 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown)
Subject: RV-6, Flew 66RV
Date: Jun 06, 1994
Well I met and chatted with "Bill" from Vans at Merced this last weekend. Later in the day I got my first ride in a -6T, also my first -6 ride. I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY (get the picture) sold and glad I decided to buy and build a RV-6... This airplane is both fun and responsive!!!! I was, er still, on a high from that flight. At Merced there where rows of -4's, -6's, etc... A few other common homebuilts but mostly RV-*.... For all of us still building and wondering, KEEP BUILDING!! YOU WILL LOVE IT ~~~~~~~~ -------sig cut here------- jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL Building an RV-6 23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown)
Subject: Tools, etc.
Date: Jun 06, 1994
DOes anyone have some advise on which "tool kits" are good/bad, etc? Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc?? One last question.. What abut the "flo-gision" (I can't remember how it was spelled) pre-fab spars???? -------sig cut here------- jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Tools, etc.
> What abut the "flo-gision" (I can't remember how it was spelled) pre-fab > spars???? > -------sig cut here------- > jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL > Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee" I built my spar and didn't find it to be difficult, just time consuming. Most people I've talked to who bought Phlogiston spars seemed to be satisfied with their quality, so it's probably a matter of economics vs time. I spent about 60 hrs on them, I think that's slightly above average. One tip: if you do your own spars and choose to taper the flange strips, check with me or Mike Wilson (James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.hf.intel.com) regarding the table saw blade he found that works quite well for that. Also get Frank Justice's instructions (frank(at)SSD.intel.com) -- they're a big help there. Randall Henderson RV-6 (for now) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Tools, etc.
Don't buy ATS. I bought a Phlogiston spar. It's nice enough, but many of the gang in the Portland RVators have done their own during the last year, and found it to be very do-able. I would seriously consider putting that $800 towards a $1500 'fast build kit' for the wings, from Steve Bernard (Van's sells these). If you're looking to save time and head scratching, that may be money well spent. dw DOes anyone have some advise on which "tool kits" are good/bad, etc? Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc?? One last question.. What abut the "flo-gision" (I can't remember how it was spelled) pre-fab spars???? -------sig cut here------- jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 06, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Rivets too short/Progress Report
Curt, glad to hear you are enjoying your project, that first 'real airplane part' IS fun. As to drilling-out the rivets, something to consider: the holes will now be 'stretched' from the first rivets, you may damage some holes during the removal process, etc. If they are pretty close, I would think hard before drilling-them out. Also, lest we forget, ultimate responsibility for rivet length belongs to the riveter, not 'the plans', right? I would consider ordering 'some qty' of -4s next time you order something from Van's. Their quantities are fine for a 'std' RV, but if you are like the rest of us dummies and get carried away with things that use more nut plates, etc., you will run-out (I did). Keep up the good work dw Having just finished skinning one side of my vertical stabilizer I am wondering if I should have used longer rivets. The plans call for #3-3.5s, which are supplied in abundance. However, I chose to dimple my skin, as the book recommends, only to find that a 3.5 rivet was now just a hair too short, according to my rivet gauge. So, I used 'em anyway, but many of my shopheads are marginal in terms of finished height. I decided to use some of my limited supply of 3-4s to do the edge rivets, and these came out beautifully ( The squeezer is a joy to use on the #3 rivets, unlike the #4s). The rear spar/skin fastening rivets were countersunk and these worked out fine. I wonder why the book recommends dimpleing, then recommends and supplies rivets which seem to be inappropriate? Anyway, I have a friend coming over to help tonight, so I'll probably replace most of the 3.5s, just for peace of mind. Anyone else have any comments on selecting rivet lengths? I think from now on I will not use any rivet that is shorter that the rivet gauge minimum, regardless of what the plans say. But the good news is that otherwise the vertical stabilizer is complete, almost. I am supposed to leave one side of the skin unriveted until the airworthiness inspector can inspect it. Anyway, it is pretty neat to take it out of the jig and just look at it, lift it up, show the neighbors, etc. A genuine chunk of airplane! I'm really starting to enjoy the building process even more than I thought I would. This metalworking is fun! You know, every night I fall asleep not by counting sheep, but by imagining myself in the cockpit making that first glorious flight! Curt Reimer One Happy RV Building Dude RV6 #23490 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 07, 1994
Subject: Re: Tools, etc.
>Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the >wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone >built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc?? I built a free-standing empenage jig and it worked just fine. 4x4 uprights and crossbar, tall enough to put a 2x4 across the top to hang plumb lines from, and 2x4 braces. The feet for the uprights were 3-foot long 2x4's, and I put machine bolts in them for feet; turning these bolts in and out allowed me to level in on an uneven floor. This rig was plenty stable when riveting. No need to glue it in place. I didn't use it for my wings; not sure how well it would hold up. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
Date: Jun 07, 1994
Subject: Rivet lengths
When I started working on my RV-3, I did tons of practice stuff. I got a bunch of old aluminum from a friend who is a mechanic and then bought some in each of the different thicknesses. I also bought a bunch of extra rivets. Eventually, I got to the point where I dared to start on a real piece. Now that I have been working on this for a couple of years I still practice something if I have not done it for a while. Last week I practiced machine countersinking before working on my F303 fuselage bulkhead. When doing this, I always use the same thickness and type of material. This way it helps to pump up my self confidence and I get the tools adjusted. Now here is a question. I did some back riveting of some an426ad4-5 flush rivets this past weekend. Some of them did not seem to form the shop head evenly in all directions from the center of the rivet. I would like to figure out why before I rivet the bulkhead pieces together. Any ideas? Thanks. Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Tools, etc.
>Don't buy ATS. I have found them OK for drill bits -- they have all sizes and lengths in stock and are the correct split point type for aluminum. Stay away from their other stuff though. > >I bought a Phlogiston spar. It's nice enough, but many of the gang in the >Portland RVators have done their own during the last year, and found it to >be very do-able. I would seriously consider putting that $800 towards a >$1500 'fast build kit' for the wings, from Steve Bernard (Van's sells >these). If you're looking to save time and head scratching, that may be >money well spent. >dw I just saw what Steve Barnard sells at the RV BBQ in Bakersfield this last weekend. His parts are VERY well made, all Computer cut and drilled, and gold anodized -- no priming needed!! Some of the smaller assemblies, such as the bellcrank are riveted together and completely finished. He used to be a professional sheet metal worker for McDonald Douglas (sp?) in Long Beach. His pre-drilling of the rear spar reinforcement plates and the aileron attach fittings removes ALL fitting problems on getting the ailerons correctly aligned with the wing. this alone removes a lot of worry, fitting, lying on your back trail fitting ailerons, trepidation, etc.... I wish his kit was available when I did my wings. Price is $1495 from either Vans or Steve directly (he lives in Cameron Park, CA in the 916 area code). I tapered my spars with a $150 Delta bandsaw with a wood blade, and cleaned up the cut with a large "vixen" file (from Avery). This was quite easy. Since the cutting is a one shot deal, you could probably just borrow time on someone elses band saw. I also spent at least 60 hours on the spars, and it cost $1000 for a new engine, when my son's pickup engine blew up in the mountains taking the spar to Bakersfield to be riveted by John Harman. > ** stuff deleted ** >-------sig cut here------- >jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL >Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee" >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Gil Alexander - Information Super Highway Address | Internet : gil(at)rassp.hac.com Hughes Aircraft Company | UUCP : ..!usc!hac2arpa!rassp!gil Bldg R01 M/S B505 | Voice : (310) 334-7840 PO Box 92426 | RASSP Hot Line: (310) 334-5404 Los Angeles, CA 90009 | RASSP Fax : (310) 334-1672 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Rivets too short/Progress Report
Curt, If you are dimpling with the Avery tool, I have found that a #41 drill is the best to use. It seems that the #40 holes get a little too large after dimpling, and the rivet has to expand more to fill the hole, giving it a slightly shoerter head. ....... Gil Alexander ... RV6A >Curt, glad to hear you are enjoying your project, that first 'real >airplane part' IS fun. As to drilling-out the rivets, something to >consider: the holes will now be 'stretched' from the first rivets, you >may damage some holes during the removal process, etc. If they are pretty >close, I would think hard before drilling-them out. Also, lest we forget, >ultimate responsibility for rivet length belongs to the riveter, not 'the >plans', right? > >I would consider ordering 'some qty' of -4s next time you order something >from Van's. Their quantities are fine for a 'std' RV, but if you are like >the rest of us dummies and get carried away with things that use more nut >plates, etc., you will run-out (I did). > >Keep up the good work >dw > > >Having just finished skinning one side of my vertical stabilizer I am >wondering if I should have used longer rivets. The plans call for #3-3.5s, >which are supplied in abundance. However, I chose to dimple my skin, as >the book recommends, only to find that a 3.5 rivet was now just a hair too >short, according to my rivet gauge. So, I used 'em anyway, but many of my >shopheads are marginal in terms of finished height. I decided to use some >of my limited supply of 3-4s to do the edge rivets, and these came out >beautifully ( The squeezer is a joy to use on the #3 rivets, unlike the #4s). > >The rear spar/skin fastening rivets were countersunk and these worked out >fine. I wonder why the book recommends dimpleing, then recommends and >supplies rivets which seem to be inappropriate? Anyway, I have a friend >coming over to help tonight, so I'll probably replace most of the 3.5s, >just for peace of mind. Anyone else have any comments on selecting rivet >lengths? I think from now on I will not use any rivet that is shorter that >the rivet gauge minimum, regardless of what the plans say. > >But the good news is that otherwise the vertical stabilizer is complete, >almost. I am supposed to leave one side of the skin unriveted until the >airworthiness inspector can inspect it. Anyway, it is pretty neat to take >it out of the jig and just look at it, lift it up, show the neighbors, >etc. A genuine chunk of airplane! I'm really starting to enjoy the >building process even more than I thought I would. This metalworking is >fun! > >You know, every night I fall asleep not by counting sheep, but by >imagining myself in the cockpit making that first glorious flight! > >Curt Reimer >One Happy RV Building Dude >RV6 #23490 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone #?
I ordered a heated pitot tube from Aircraft Spruce about 3 weeks ago. At that time they said they were back ordered 3 weeks. I called them today to ask for status and they said "we had some in but they already went out. Next shipment should be in around July 2." $#*&$^%*&! I'm not too happy. I'm all ready to rivet my left leading edge skin and want to put that in first. Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone number handy? Or any other suggestions for where to get a heated pitot tube? If any PDX locals know of a local source for one let me know. Randall RV-6/6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 07, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: Tools, etc.
If you are going to go to the RV fly-in at Scapoose Airport this Saturday Bill Benedict is going to bring out one of the fast-build wing kits for us to look at. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone #?
Date: Jun 07, 1994
> > > I ordered a heated pitot tube from Aircraft Spruce about 3 weeks ago. At > that time they said they were back ordered 3 weeks. > I called them today to ask for status and they said "we had some in but > they already went out. Next shipment should be in around July 2." $#*&$^%*&! > > I'm not too happy. I'm all ready to rivet my left leading edge skin and > want to put that in first. Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone number handy? > Or any other suggestions for where to get a heated pitot tube? If any > PDX locals know of a local source for one let me know. > > Randall > RV-6/6A > I've got the heated pitot on my RV6A. You don't actually need the tube until you've painted the wings. However, you do need a mounting bracket (mast) of some sort when assembling the wing (surprise; it doesn't come with the tube!). I got my mount from White Industries for about $25. Gary Bataller ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 07, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Rivets too short/Progress Report
Thanks for the reply. I have already purchased some #41s and I plan to use them on dimpled holes from now on. In fact, #42s would be even better if only the dimple die would fit through! Cheers, Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Tools, etc. (fwd)
Date: Jun 07, 1994
From: bill(at)sfu.ca
> From netcom.netcom.com!jmbrown(at)matronics.com Mon Jun 6 14:18:31 1994 > > DOes anyone have some advise on which "tool kits" are good/bad, etc? > Also I am building in a hangar and the destructions say to make the > wing gig up to the roof, for me that would be pretty tall. Has anyone > built a free standing jig?? Any tips ideas, etc?? My Jig is free standing. It is pretty much like the plans, except that I put an extra 4x4 along the top, and used 3/4 inch plywood gussets and webs to stiffen things up. I cut legs out of 3/4 inch plywood that look something like the attempted sketch below. I used 3/8 inch round head bolts, nuts and large washers for legs so I could level the thing. They are inserted into a 2x4 stiffener fastened laterally along the plywood leg. I installed a wire along the top, just below the upper 4x4 to hang a plumb bob from. The width of the legs are 28 inches -- OK, but if I were to do it again, I'd make them a bit wider, say, 32 inches. The whiole thing is screwed together with dry wall screws. | | | | | | | | - | |- - | | - - | | - / \ / \ / _______________________ \ /___ / \___ \ I have built the HS in the jig, and just mounted the VS skeleton in it for skinning. I check the alignment periodically with the plumb bob, and a level. It is certainly not as stable as a built-in jig, but it is conveninent to move it out of the way when it is not in use. > jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL > Building an RV-6 N61JB "The Golden BeeBee" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John M. Brown" <jmbrown(at)straw.berry.com>
Subject: Jig ideas, etc....
Date: Jun 07, 1994
What did you use for the wing?? I like the idea of one jig for everything.. What I am thinking about building would look like the following: | | /|\ / | \ from the side..... | | | | |------------| | | | | Like in VAN's destruction guide. Any thoughts ideas? jmbrown(at)netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mag(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 07, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: Rivets too short/Progress Report
>Thanks for the reply. I have already purchased some #41s and I plan to use >them on dimpled holes from now on. In fact, #42s would be even better if >only the dimple die would fit through! > If you squeeze hard enough, it will :-) >Cheers, >Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Bellcrank bearings
Does anybody have a source for the original aileron belcrank bearings. The ones sent with my kit look like a cheep knock-off. ____________________________________________________________________________ | | | ( ) | | ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble | | /\ )( ) Gotta love it! cruble(at)cisco.com | | / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 | | / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W | |/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC | |________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________| ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Subject: Re: Jig ideas, etc....
What did you use for the wing?? I like the idea of one jig for everything.. What I am thinking about building would look like the following: | | /|\ / | \ from the side..... | | | | |------------| | | | | Like in VAN's destruction guide. Any thoughts ideas? jmbrown(at)netcom.com The wing is very heavy when complete, so the structure required for it is somewhat different from that required for the empenage. The structure described below should work, but two poles with crossarms are a lot simpler. Build the two sides as shown, with the upper crossarm about 4 feet off the floor. You don't need any bars between them for building purposes, but you must have them top and bottom to hold the structure square. All of that stuff will get in your way as you are trying to build. The more I think about it the better it sounds to just put up two poles no matter how high the ceiling. | | |_____ |\ / | \ |/ \ /| \ / | \ / | \ /___|______\ Side View Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Subject: Boeing surplus store
I'M SORRY IF YOU'VE RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE TWICE. I HAD REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THE FIRST ONE DIDN'T MAKE IT. Reading through the rv-list archives, the Boeing surplus store was mentioned several times. People have mentioned $0.50 cleco pliers and $40 rivet guns - sound like an RV builder's paradise. I will be in Seattle from the 19th through 27th for a conference (actually plan to spend 24-26th in Portland) and would like to stock up on tools. So, some questions for those in the NW: Is this store open to the public? What are their hours? What can I typically find there? Are there some items that are almost always found, and others that are more transient? Has anybody been there very recently? Also, the conference that I'm attending (IEEE Antenna and Propagation Society/URSI) had a tour of the Boeing 747/767 plant in Everett, which I thought would be one of the high points of the trip. However, they cleverly scheduled my presentation at the same time as the tour. Alas, I can't go. I was wondering if anyone knew if Boeing has regular tours of their facilities open to the general public so I could go another day. Thanks, John Henderson johnh @ eng.auburn.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Bellcrank bearings (fwd)
Date: Jun 08, 1994
> From cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com Wed Jun 8 11:54:00 1994 > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 07:56:19 -0700 > From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com> > Message-Id: <199406081456.HAA28241(at)large.cisco.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Bellcrank bearings > > Does anybody have a source for the original aileron belcrank bearings. The ones sent with my kit look like a cheep knock-off. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > | | > | ( ) | > | ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble | > | /\ )( ) Gotta love it! cruble(at)cisco.com | > | / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 | > | / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W | > |/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC | > |________\___\___!_ ! _!_____________________________________________________| > > > Howdy, Think these are bad should of seen the ones in 91. I bought real Fanfair (sp) 1/4" bearing from Spruce, but I think Wicks also has them at a lower price. You need 4, the elevator, the 2 ailerons, and the elevator bellcrank in the fuselage. Doug B RV-6A Cost around $10-$15 ea. But boy are they smooth!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Subject: Rivet Shop Head
I certainly can't say that ALL of my shop heads are perfect. ...at least with a straight face. There are many reasons why some are better than others. One of the reasons for the ugly ones of mine is due to the the amount of energy transfered from the rivet gun to the riveting job. If the air pressure is too high the head spreads evenly but, of course, it may be smashed beyond recognition. But if the pressure is too light the shophead can be knocked over before it is set. Further pounding will make it look a little better, but it is a bad rivet job and I get more practice at drilling it out. There was a very good article in Sport Aviation a few months back by Tony Bingelis (Spelling?) that touched on this very point. There can be many other factors such as rivet length, how straight I hold the Bucking Bar, or how straight the holes line-up etc... The best thing I have found is to practice a little bit before I start a big riveting job. I adjust air pressure, try various rivet sets and bucking bars, and just try to get back into the "feel" of riveting for each session. Best of Luck! bobn(at)ims.com #20110 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: My latest foul-up...
Well, just when my empannage was coming along real well, I made a stupid mistake. While drilling my HS405 ribs to the HS rear spar, I neglected to drill my holes through the center of the HS409 flanges, and instead just drilled 3 holes where it "looked good", according to the "typical rib hole location" detail drawing. I should have drilled only 2 holes, centered in the flanges, but of course, the spar was flange side down in the jig, and the location of the flanges didn't occur to me until I was drilling and noticed "Hey! this metal is pretty thick here." At that point my pilot holes had been drilled in both HS405s, so I figured, well I've already started doing them this way, might as well finish the job. So, my holes are about 1/4" off center but still at least 1/4" from the edge of the flange. I'll call Van and see what he says. My own calculations tell me that I've reduced the tensile strength of the spar flange only by 2 % or so, so I am hoping that the worst case would be to reinforce the area with additional metal somehow. I guess new rear spar material is probably worth only $100 or so but I really don't want to round off those 409s again! The darn spar was almost perfect too. Oh well. Am I the only guy who does stupid things like this or what? Although I have been extremely careful with measurements, etc., I just got on a roll and started drilling holes when suddenly my brain apparently shut down :). That seems to be one of the pitfalls of building; once I start doing something repetitive like drilling, dimpleing etc. it becomes like hammering nails and my mind tends to wander. But building is so much fun I should be happy to build two of everything, right? I guess now I realize why people talk about building a second empannage at the end of their project. _______________________________________________________________________ |o| |o| <- where I drilled o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o HS409 | | | | _____________________|_|_________________|_|___________________________ |o| | |o| _____________________|_|________|________|_|____________________________ | | | | o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o HS409 |o| |o| _____________________|_|_________________|_|____________________________ Curt Reimer Depressed, but recovering, RV-6 builder. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Subject: Boeing surplus store
Another question about the surplus store that I forgot to ask: Where is it? How do I get there? Thanks, John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: "Bob Lyon, DECwest Engineering" <lyon(at)decwet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: RE: Boeing surplus store
>Reading through the rv-list archives, the Boeing surplus store >was mentioned several times. People have mentioned $0.50 >cleco pliers and $40 rivet guns - sound like an RV builder's >paradise. I will be in Seattle from the 19th through 27th for >a conference (actually plan to spend 24-26th in Portland) and >would like to stock up on tools. So, some questions for those >in the NW: >Is this store open to the public? Yes >What are their hours? The address is: Boeing Surplus Sales 20651 84th Avenue S Kent, Wa Hours: Tues-Fri 11am-6pm & Sat 9am-4pm Directions from Seattle: Take I-5 south to I-405 north (acutally heads east for several miles), then I-405 north to SR 167 south. Take SR 167 south to the 208th street exit and turn right (west) on to S 208th. Follow S 208th street west a couple blocks until you get to 84th Avenue S - turn right (north). Follow 84th Avenue S north to the next light (S 206th). Boeing Surplus is on the northwest corner of the intersection and is clearly marked. >What can I typically find there? Are there some items that are >almost always found, and others that are more transient? >Has anybody been there very recently? Not to be too general, but it is possible to find just about anything remotely related to aircraft manufacture in the last 50 years - materials, parts, tools, etc. There is alot of good stuff but there is also alot of junk - buyer beware! The pickings do tend to turnover, so bring your checkbook and if you see something you like, buy it - it may not be there tomorrow. Worth the drive. >Also, the conference that I'm attending (IEEE Antenna and Propagation >Society/URSI) had a tour of the Boeing 747/767 plant in Everett, >which I thought would be one of the high points of the trip. >However, they cleverly scheduled my presentation at the same time >as the tour. Alas, I can't go. I was wondering if anyone knew >if Boeing has regular tours of their facilities open to the >general public so I could go another day. Boeing has a fairly continuous stream of tours going this time of year. You can probably get in one just by showing up. Call one of the following for more information: Everett tour information: (206) 342-4801 (206) 544-1264 Another nice attraction for avaition enthusiasts is the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field: Museum of Flight 9404 East Marginal Way South Seattle, WA (206) 764-5720 The museum has a fairly extensive collection including a DC-3, B-29, B-47, A-7, A-12, and an Apollo capsule. The Boeing 707 prototype model 367-80 known as the "Dash-80" is nearby as well. Worth taking in if you have the time. Hope this helps, Bob Lyon lyon(at)zso.dec.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Rivet Shop Head
I have found the best results with bucking bar technique & practice. 1) keep the gun pressure low (40 to 50) and be sure Gun stays firm against rivet and surface. 2) apply light pressure with bucking bar as gun is slowly started and accelerated 3) you will feel the rivet set as the gun accelerates. By rivet set, I mean it is no longer loose in the hole (not finished to a shop head) My terminology may be incorrect. 4) once the rivet is set and as the gun accelerates, use the bucking bar to press the shop head on the rivet. At the bucking bar, it almost feels as though the rivet is made of clay as it forms the shop head. What I feel is happening is, once the rivet sets in the hole it will no longer bounce out of the hole toward the gun so it is safe, at that time, to apply bucking bar pressure. Once you get the feel of the bucking bar, all your rivets will be great. I keep my 12 year old son on the gun and I buck. I feel the technique is in the bar. Hope this helps, let me know how it works for you. Mike Wilson, St Helens, OR RV-4 - emp done - wings in the jig, ready to skin I certainly can't say that ALL of my shop heads are perfect. ...at least with a straight face. There are many reasons why some are better than others. One of the reasons for the ugly ones of mine is due to the the amount of energy transfered from the rivet gun to the riveting job. If the air pressure is too high the head spreads evenly but, of course, it may be smashed beyond recognition. But if the pressure is too light the shophead can be knocked over before it is set. Further pounding will make it look a little better, but it is a bad rivet job and I get more practice at drilling it out. There was a very good article in Sport Aviation a few months back by Tony Bingelis (Spelling?) that touched on this very point. There can be many other factors such as rivet length, how straight I hold the Bucking Bar, or how straight the holes line-up etc... The best thing I have found is to practice a little bit before I start a big riveting job. I adjust air pressure, try various rivet sets and bucking bars, and just try to get back into the "feel" of riveting for each session. Best of Luck! bobn(at)ims.com #20110 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Boeing surplus store
Date: Jun 08, 1994
> > > Another question about the surplus store that I forgot > to ask: > Content-Length: 48 > > Where is it? How do I get there? > > Thanks, > John > > Howdy, I would like to know this too, I will be in the Seattle area a week before John, I will try to leave you something John. Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Subject: Re: Rivet lengths
One other thing that can make your shop heads bend over in addition to what bobn just wrote: Make sure the material you are riveting on is supported solidly. If the force of the hammer tends to make it tilt or shift sideways, the rivet will bend over for no apparent reason. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ERNST(at)UIPHYA.PHYSICS.UIUC.EDU
Date: Jun 08, 1994
I would like to begin construction of my -6A as soon as I move to my new job in August. Unfortunately, my new home is another apartment, with correspondingly lousy shop space. Looking through the plans and manual, though, it looks as though there is a good deal that I can get done on the tail kit without setting up an air compressor immediately (air tools being the loudest and least appropriate for an apartment shop). It looks as though there's quite a bit of drilling, cutting, filing, rivet squeezing, etc. that I can get done in my apartment. My questions, then, are: how good an idea is it to build tail sub-assemblies, possibly out of order, leaving the pieces formed but unprimed (no compressor spray gun yet) until I set up a real shop in about a year? Is it practical to use primer from an aerosol can for some tail parts that first year? Also, if I order a bunch of tools now (Avery's kit), how good an idea is it to leave the air tools unused for that first year (assuming that I can oil them occasionally)? In the mean time, I'll look for more appropriate (rented) shop space when I move in a couple months, maybe go in on a corner of a hangar or whatever. Does anyone have ideas about finding shop space? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Subject: Some of my mistakes
Here are some of the bigger mistakes I have made on my -3 Bad trimming of the vertical stabilizer skin. I was in a hurry as we were about to move and it was time to pack up. I was forced to buy a new skin. The worst part is now I have to re-mount the jig in order to fit the new skin. Mis-drilling one of the spar strips. On the -3 you have to do all the drilling for the spar and bulkhead. I drilled a hole in the wrong place on one of the longest ones and had to order a new one. I got it from Wicks as they are 2000 miles closer. Mis-laying out of the rivet pattern for the F-303 bulkhead. This is the bulkhead made along with the main spar. When laying out the locations for the rivets to hold the vertical pieces to the front and back pieces, I mis-calculated where the bolts through the spar go. I had to order six new pieces. The new one is almost done. Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com>
Subject: Re: My latest foul-up...
Curt, Check with Van's. It doesn't look like an issue to me. As long as you meet minimums and the rivets (and shop heads) clear everything (i.e. edge flanges, brackets, etc.) It's the skin that provides structural strength. I know how you feel, I built two horiz stabs and my first one was perfect too. This project will really humble you. It's still great and it just gets better. I found that I go through periods of: enthusiasm, depression, accomplishment, mundane relentless boring repetitive exercises (wing ribs), apprehension, financial justification ... you could go on forever. Lets face it, a 4-yr project that requires a quality level your life literally depends on is a dam emotional undertaking. I just try to keep the final outcome before me. Keeps me going in spite of how small the intermediate accomplishments seem. Sounds like your doing great! Good Luck, Mike Wilson, St Helens, OR RV-4 emp done, wings ready for skin Well, just when my empannage was coming along real well, I made a stupid mistake. While drilling my HS405 ribs to the HS rear spar, I neglected to drill my holes through the center of the HS409 flanges, and instead just drilled 3 holes where it "looked good", according to the "typical rib hole location" detail drawing. I should have drilled only 2 holes, centered in the flanges, but of course, the spar was flange side down in the jig, and the location of the flanges didn't occur to me until I was drilling and noticed "Hey! this metal is pretty thick here." At that point my pilot holes had been drilled in both HS405s, so I figured, well I've already started doing them this way, might as well finish the job. So, my holes are about 1/4" off center but still at least 1/4" from the edge of the flange. I'll call Van and see what he says. My own calculations tell me that I've reduced the tensile strength of the spar flange only by 2 % or so, so I am hoping that the worst case would be to reinforce the area with additional metal somehow. I guess new rear spar material is probably worth only $100 or so but I really don't want to round off those 409s again! The darn spar was almost perfect too. Oh well. Am I the only guy who does stupid things like this or what? Although I have been extremely careful with measurements, etc., I just got on a roll and started drilling holes when suddenly my brain apparently shut down :). That seems to be one of the pitfalls of building; once I start doing something repetitive like drilling, dimpleing etc. it becomes like hammering nails and my mind tends to wander. But building is so much fun I should be happy to build two of everything, right? I guess now I realize why people talk about building a second empannage at the end of their project. _______________________________________________________________________ |o| |o| <- where I drilled o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o HS409 | | | | _____________________|_|_________________|_|___________________________ |o| | |o| _____________________|_|________|________|_|____________________________ | | | | o o o o o | | o o | | o o o o o o o HS409 |o| |o| _____________________|_|_________________|_|____________________________ Curt Reimer Depressed, but recovering, RV-6 builder. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: More mistakes...
RV builder's screw-ups.... I have a spare left flap if anyone needs flap parts. Don't do layout late at night and mark out two left flaps!!! I got all the way to drilling the top skin before I realized. They don't even laugh at Van's when you order new parts ... can't say that about our local RV newsletter editor though..... So don't worry about wrong holes as long as they can be plugged and don't hurt structural integrity. Gil Alexander RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 08, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: My latest foul-up...
Curt Reimer sez: [long confession about drilling 4 holes 1/4" off center but still 1/4" from the edge of HS-409 flange strips deleted] Sounds like you still have minimum edge distance, I wouldn't sweat it. > Am I the only guy who does stupid things like this or what? Yeah right. Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Fuel Tanks more capacity
Date: Jun 08, 1994
Howdy, This is being done in Texas, Ol' Bob Brasher started it. On your fuel tanks swap usage of the inboard rib (right tank to left, left to right) this will give you an extra 1/2 gal of fuel and make it easier to rivet the stub front attach spar to the rib. You might want to try this on the outboard tank rib also, but the may be some interferance. ________________________________________________________________________________ on either homebuilts or spamcans. No need we never get high enough rel. humdity. (never seen any water in a tank of fuel) The spam cans have a tab on the inside of the fuel filler neck. I put one into my tanks, a tab, I will calibrate it when installed on the plane. Now when I have partially filled tanks I will know exactly how much fuel I have. No fueling around, Doug B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Date: Jun 09, 1994
Subject: Testing fuel tank
Hi all, So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. This process also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if there is a leak (besides cry)? As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip up the tab? Will it loosen up over time? One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab of ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)? Tanks once more for the help. (sorry...it's still early here) Tom Goeddel RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal" t.goeddel(at)att.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown)
Subject: Questions
Date: Jun 09, 1994
A couple of questions for ya'll 1. Whats the email addr to subscribe to the list. A friend wants to join 2. Where are all the messages archived at?? An last but not least, the really important one. Frank J. and others that are going to the RV flying this weekend (OR). Please take a good look at the fast build wing kit. I would like to get the net.wisdom on this. I am try to decide on what to spend my money on. The pre-built spar, or the fast build wing kit.???? If they have any lit. etc. Could some one pass on my name and addr John M. Brown 1474 Hicks Ave San Jose, CA 95125 Thanks mucho.... -------sig cut here------- jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL Building an RV-6 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Fast build kit
Fast build kit comes from Steve Barnard [BAC - Barnard Aircraft Company] in Cameron Park, CA in the (916) area code ...... call him for an info sheet. Saw parts of his kit at the Bakerfield RV fly-in last weekend and they look good ...... Gil Alexander >A couple of questions for ya'll > >1. Whats the email addr to subscribe to the list. A friend wants to join >2. Where are all the messages archived at?? > >An last but not least, the really important one. > >Frank J. and others that are going to the RV flying this weekend (OR). >Please take a good look at the fast build wing kit. I would like to get >the net.wisdom on this. I am try to decide on what to spend my money on. >The pre-built spar, or the fast build wing kit.???? If they have any lit. >etc. Could some one pass on my name and addr >John M. Brown >1474 Hicks Ave >San Jose, CA 95125 > >Thanks mucho.... >-------sig cut here------- >jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL >Building an RV-6 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee" >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Anyone have Wag-Aero's phone #?
Date: Jun 09, 1994
> > > I've got the heated pitot on my RV6A. You don't actually need the tube > > until you've painted the wings. However, you do need a mounting bracket > > (mast) of some sort when assembling the wing (surprise; it doesn't come with > > the tube!). I got my mount from White Industries for about $25. > > White industries -- Phone number? > Mast is good quality? I wonder what's different about it than the ones > sold by Wag-Aero which cost $133? (probably just paperwork...) > > Frank J. told me there's no problem with going ahead and riveting the > leading edge before I get the mast as I can still still install pretty it > easily as long as the tank is off. Do you concur? > > Randall > I got the mount from a junked production plana via White Industries (800-821-7733; ask for Russ). It was a used part, but in excellent condition. Actually, I bought a combination pitot/static heated tube from Chief Aircraft (I think I paid about $150), so make sure you specify exactly which tube you have (not sure if it would make a difference). I've gotten a few other parts from White (ie. used post-lights, remote-control gascolator, etc.) and have had no problems with their service. They don't take credit cards but they do ship COD. I attached the mount just prior to final skinning of the wings, but I believe it could be done after the skinning. I didn't use a doubler since I installed the mount near a rib/spar corner, at which point the skin is fairly oil-canning proof. Oh yeh, I use a Bosch automotive-relay to switch power to the heated tube, but that's another story... Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank
Date: Jun 09, 1994
> > So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of > filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting > while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell > that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. This process > also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if > there is a leak (besides cry)? I put a ballon on the fuel-inlet fitting and attached the vent-fitting (using a rubber hose) to my compressor, via a handle-actuated valve. I set the compressor on its LOWEST pressure setting and then gave a shot of air into the vent line. Then WAIT a second or two. Then another quick shot, etc.. until the ballon starts to erect a bit. Now, being real careful not to give it too much air, give it a few more shots until the ballon inflates. There will be a definite delay between that last shot of air and until the ballon inflates. Don't over-pressure the tank; it could damage the Proseal and Slosh sealing!!! Now brush on a soapy water solution over the tank, looking for bubbles. I only found them at the fuel-cap, which was okay. You'll probably get this same info from other builders, since I think it is a fairly common way to test the tanks. > One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to > seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts > store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab of > ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)? Sorry, but a forget the exact brand, but it was a fuel-approved sealer. Don't use ProSeal; you'll never get it out if you have a need in the future. Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 09, 1994
From: James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank
Here's an idea, Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs, 20lbs, then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. Then watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks are present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water will show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have a way to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC systems, what do you think? Let me know if this works, I'm building my tanks now. Mike Wilson, RV-4 Hi all, So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. This process also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if there is a leak (besides cry)? As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip up the tab? Will it loosen up over time? One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab of ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)? Tanks once more for the help. (sorry...it's still early here) Tom Goeddel RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal" t.goeddel(at)att.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Jun 09, 1994
Subject: Tail & Wing Jig "John Brown"
I built my Tail Jig from 4X4s as Van suggests. The Vert. & Horiz. Stabs only spent about a month in it and they came out pretty straight. I didn't get the First wing ready for Jigging for about another 6 months. The Jig was left up the whole time. When it was time to get the wing set up I noticed that the uprights had twisted about 30 degrees from top to bottom from warpage. I was afraid of that. Since I knew the Wings would spend a long time in the Jig I wanted to make them out of metal anyway. I stopped at my local scrap metal yard and found a couple of 3X3 posts cut from an old road sign. There was even a flange welded on the bottom. ($12 for both!) Putting anchors in the garage floor was easy, but one of the posts wouldn't reach the ceiling. The other was OK the I bolted two 2' pieces of angle iron to ceiling to anchor it. The other was a problem. The fix for it might interest you. I found several pieces of scrap 5/8 threaded rod. I welded them to 6' lengths of 1"sq. tubing. I then welded a small flange to the other end of the tube and drilled holes in order to "Lag" bolt them to the back and side walls of my garage. Holes were then drilled through one side of the post at the top and another, an inch below it, 90 degrees to the first. The threaded rod ends were then inserted through the posts with nuts on either side. These are used to adjust the post in the "X" "Y" planes to level it. There are several advantages I discovered. The Post is very rigid. Even more so that the one bolted to the ceiling. With no braces at "Knee level" it is a lot easier to get around in my cramped garage. Finally being metal there is no warpage. My Plump bob remains constant. I am always checking it, but never need to make an adjustment. (Tip: If you let the plumb bob hover in a small jar of light oil, you aren't always waiting for it to settle down.) I am sure that by putting another tube across the top to the second upright it could be made to be "semi-free standing" as well. All you need are two walls and a floor. If you have trouble with my discription, and want to know more, let me know and I'll try to do an ASCII drawing or maybe E-Mail you a ".TIF" file. Good luck! bobn(at)ims.com #20110 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
I noticed in the manual last night that the photographs of the empannage show considerably more lightening holes in the H.S than the plans and text describe. Has anyone else cut these extra holes? Is there a limit recommended by Van? It would seem wise to keep the empannage as light as possible, given the CofG situation in an RV-6. As far as the stamped-in lightening holes provided in the kit ribs (H.S.405s etc) I cut only the very inner flat part out of mine but I wonder if I should have included a bit of the flange material as well. The video shows just the center flat part removed, but the manual photographs show considerably larger holes. Just wondered if anyone had the official scoop from Van on this subject. I havn't done the math yet, but I wonder if all the extra holes might only add up to a couple of ounces anyway, which might give perhaps a pound or two additional baggage compartment capacity, in which case it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble. Regards, Curt Reimer RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 10, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: Testing fuel tank
>Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank >Here's an idea, >Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to >the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs, >20lbs, >then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. >Mike Wilson, RV-4 Even 10 ibs/sq in seemed a little high until I thought about it. That would be about 150 pounds pushing on each skin area but it is about the eqivalent pressure you would see with a full load of fuel pulling about 8 G's. It would certainly tell you if your tank is going to hold together. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 10, 1994
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
> recommended by Van? It would seem wise to keep the empannage as light as > possible, given the CofG situation in an RV-6. What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320 and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting passenger and baggage weight? John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
Date: Jun 10, 1994
Subject: Fuel tank testing
Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs. of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440 lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft. Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, John H Henderson wrote: > > recommended by Van? It would seem wise to keep the empannage as light as > > possible, given the CofG situation in an RV-6. > > What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320 > and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting > passenger and baggage weight? > Thats what I mean. The lighter you keep the tail, the more you shift the CG forward, thus partially compensating for having a light engine and prop. Curt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Fuel tank testing
Date: Jun 10, 1994
> > > Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I > believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs. > of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440 > lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article > said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using > one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft. > > Cheryl Sanchez > I tried to emphasize this in my last posting; watch the cummulative pressure! However, don't be too paranoid about it. Just keep an eye on the ballon and keep giving the tank small shots of air. There is a definite lag as the air distributes itself in the tank. As soon as the ballon begins to erect, STOP and WAIT a few seconds. Then give another shot, wait, etc... Then add just enough to inflate the ballon, and no more. I really don't think there is any risk in this unless you get impatient and add too much at once. Its kind of hard to be too quantitative in the process when you are dealing with imprecise air gauges. You just need enough pressure to inflate the ballon. Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 10, 1994
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
> > What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320 > > and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting > > passenger and baggage weight? > > > Thats what I mean. The lighter you keep the tail, the more you shift the > CG forward, thus partially compensating for having a light engine and > prop. Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6," Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine installation.) I was intrigued by the "Engine Beat" column in the July Kitplanes. Henry Boulay is working on four 4-cylinder engines between 170--240 HP with weights from 220--255# wet. Looking at the RVator index, I see there was an article on him in the RVator last year, but I don't have them before this year. Also, Ivoprop's new, larger, non-Rotax propellers are interesting. They're developing an electric constant-speed system. Seems with these options, you could install a constant speed prop with more power than an O-360 with less weight than an O-320/wood prop installation. Reducing weight can only improve performance, but it would be a shame to be limited by CG considerations. If moving the firewall forward is structurall possible, the disadvantages I see are that the angle of the fuselage and cowl may not match up, and I don't know what the effect of moving the front gear farther forward of the CG would be. Just throwing out some ideas. Someone here once mentioned (a couple of years ago) that Continental was developing a 4-cylinder (I think) O-370 to compete with the Lycoming O-360. Whatever happened to that? John ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel tank testing
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
> Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I > believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs. > of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440 > lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article > said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using > one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft. Yes, under one pound is what I remember as well. The customary way to do this is with an inflated balloon. For comparison, remember that 1 atmosphere is 14.7 psi. An excellent product for finding gas leaks is "Snoop." It's more sensitive than soapy water and bubbles like crazy. I don't know where to purchase it but anyone familiar with gas chromatography instruments sure would be. Earl Brabandt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel tank testing
Reply to: RE>Fuel tank testing Hey Gang, I havent had time to get this up on the list till now... so here goes: I have built many sets of RV fuel tanks. I tested each one...never had one leak . Here was my test method... When the tank is complete you have all the companants installed, this includes the vent fitting, petcock drain, and engine fuel supply fitting...right? I made a tube for the engine fuel supply fitting that was about a foot long. It was flaired for the fitting so there was a good seal there. Now here is the cute part... I curved that line away from the tank and rubberband'd a balloon to it. Just a normal rubber balloon. Then *very slowly* add enough air thru the vent fitting to inflate the balloon about 3/4 full. If you cap the vent with one of those plastic fitting caps, the balloon should stay full... if it leaks check the rubberband... Then I did the soap and water looking for bubbles around the rivits and cap and such.... I was lucky and *never* had to re-do a single one. I wasn't able to measure the pressure in that tank...it was *visible* by the inflated balloon. If the pressure was too high I supose the balloon would pop or go fluttering around the shop! Simple and cheap and it worked every time. Happy tanking! Douglas Miner and we are almost DONE! Any PDX'ers need a hand? I am almost available. -------------------------------------- Date: 6/10/94 9:39 AM From: took.enet.dec.com!sanchez@matr Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs. of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440 lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft. Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Testing fuel tank
>Here's an idea, >Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to >the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs,20lbs, >then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. Then >watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks are >present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water will >show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have a >to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC systems, >what do you think? 30 lbs!! You will have holes in your tank then!! When you pressure check the tank you only put 2-3 psi in it! Best test is with freon and a freon detector but that aint environmentally possible anymore. But the simplest test you can do is stand the tank on it's end, tie a balloon to the fuel and shoot compressed air into the fuel pickup. When the balloon inflates cap things shut! Leave it sit for a few hours or over night. If the balloon is relatively the same size you have no leaks Chris. RV-6 #21390 San Jose, CA ________________________________________________________________________________
From: twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Date: Jun 10, 1994
Subject: Re: CG (Was Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage)
> > > What C.G. situation is that? Did I once read that with an O-320 > > > and wood prop, the front is so light that it ends up limiting > > > passenger and baggage weight? > > > > > Thats what I mean. The lighter you keep the tail, the more you shift the > > CG forward, thus partially compensating for having a light engine and > > prop. > > Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on > the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned > fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the > possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending > the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my > ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches > to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about > an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6," > Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine > installation.) I've been wondering about that. It wasn't obvious to me how the CG would change on the -6A compared to the -6. While you now have a nose wheel up front versus a light tail wheel in the back, the heavy main gear must now be behind the CG instead of in front, or else you'll have a tail dragger in the truest sense. Does anyone have any actual data on typical CGs for the -6A and -6? Or to ask it another way, does the CG on a -6A with an O-320 and wood prop typically end up in a "nice" place, or does it tend to be a tad tail heavy? Tom Goeddel RV-6A t.goeddel(at)att.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
Curt Reimer sez: > As far as the stamped-in lightening holes provided in the kit ribs > (H.S.405s etc) I cut only the very inner flat part out of mine but I > wonder if I should have included a bit of the flange material as well. The > video shows just the center flat part removed, but the manual photographs > show considerably larger holes. One thing I've found as I got further along on my project is that there are little tidbits about stuff like this that they don't say up front where you sometimes need it - for example I couldn't find anything in the empennage section or plans about how much to take out of lightening holes. But when I got to the wing ribs, it says to leave at least 75% of the stiffening ring. Another thing I noticed was that up till I started on the wings I thought the min. edge distance for everything was 1/4", but then in the wing instructions it says it's 3/16" for 3/32" rivets and 1/4" for 1/8" rivets. Could be I missed some things up front, but I read that stuff pretty carefully. Moral: read ahead -- WAY ahead. > I havn't done the math yet, but I wonder if all the extra holes might only > add up to a couple of ounces anyway, which might give perhaps a pound or > two additional baggage compartment capacity, in which case it probably > wouldn't be worth the trouble. Well an ounce here, an ounce there.... I figure I'll add enough weight in extra crap that I want to shave it off wherever else I can. I'd like to know what Van says about those extra holes, even though it's too late for me to do anything about the empennage. A side note to this -- I recently had a look at Art Chard's RV-6, which he's been working on on the side for about 5 years (he builds prototypes for Van and airframes and components for others -- this -6 is his "spare time" project), and he's got lightening holes all OVER the place. Every possible piece of angle stiffener is tapered, and his aileron brackets look like swiss cheese! So I suppose there's a lot of opportunity for adding lightening measures, though I think it would be wise to consult an engineer type before going too wild with this. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel tank testing
I don't know if this has anything to do with testing fuel tanks, but it is interesting to know.... Assuming that two baloons are otherwise the same, if one is inflated to a larger size, it will have a lower internal pressure. One would assume that the two baloons would ballance in size. Not so! You can try this yourself by inflating two baloons to diferent sizes and conecting them with a tube. The small baloon will "give up" it's air to the large balloon. Try it. ----- Begin Included Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: "Doug Miner" <qm.wv.tek.com!dougm(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel tank testing
Reply to: RE>Fuel tank testing Hey Gang, I havent had time to get this up on the list till now... so here goes: I have built many sets of RV fuel tanks. I tested each one...never had one leak . Here was my test method... When the tank is complete you have all the companants installed, this includes the vent fitting, petcock drain, and engine fuel supply fitting...right? I made a tube for the engine fuel supply fitting that was about a foot long. It was flaired for the fitting so there was a good seal there. Now here is the cute part... I curved that line away from the tank and rubberband'd a balloon to it. Just a normal rubber balloon. Then *very slowly* add enough air thru the vent fitting to inflate the balloon about 3/4 full. If you cap the vent with one of those plastic fitting caps, the balloon should stay full... if it leaks check the rubberband... Then I did the soap and water looking for bubbles around the rivits and cap and such.... I was lucky and *never* had to re-do a single one. I wasn't able to measure the pressure in that tank...it was *visible* by the inflated balloon. If the pressure was too high I supose the balloon would pop or go fluttering around the shop! Simple and cheap and it worked every time. Happy tanking! Douglas Miner and we are almost DONE! Any PDX'ers need a hand? I am almost available. -------------------------------------- Date: 6/10/94 9:39 AM From: took.enet.dec.com!sanchez@matr Be careful when testing a fuel tank. There was an artcle, I believe, in Sport Aviation or somewhere, about this. If you use 10 lbs. of pressure you will likely blow up your tanks. 10 lbs. means 1440 lbs per square ft., almost 3/4 ton. If I remember right, the article said the pressure should be very low - well under one lb. Even using one lb. results in 144 lbs per square ft. Cheryl Sanchez ----- End Included Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
> Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on > the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned > fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the > possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending > the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my > ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches > to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about > an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6," > Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine > installation.) Lengthing the fuselage would be one solution to the CofG problem, but this is a rather major structural modification and I think would require a detailed analysis by Van himself. Lengthening the engine mount and cowl would probably be a simpler solution, but why is there a problem in the first place? After all the RV-6 was designed as a conventional gear, O-320, wood prop airplane. You would have thought that if there were a problem, it would be from having the CG too far FORWARD, from using a heavier engine and prop! On the same subject, there seems to be some unused space between the forward instrument panel bulkhead and the firewall. I recall someone in Australia used this area to mount a header tank. This might be a good way to shift some of the fuel weight forward, at the expense of additional fuel system complexity. Or, perhaps some kind of forward baggage compartment could be built into this area? > last year, but I don't have them before this year. Also, Ivoprop's > new, larger, non-Rotax propellers are interesting. They're > developing an electric constant-speed system. Seems with these I am also wondering about these new Ivoprops. Sounds like they could be very interesting. Anyone have any experience with these yet? The electric CS would be real nice, but a ground adjustable type would be nearly as useful, assuming the pitch adjustment is simple and quick. Just dial in your expected pitch requirement for the flight and off you go. Anyone know the rain erosion resistance and bolt tightening requirements of a carbon fiber prop? Curt Reimer RV-6 Builder ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Testing fuel tank
One thing: The Mercury tester idea is about right, but for these purposes, you could do it with some clear plastic tubing and water. Make a U shape below the level of the tank (Don't want to get water IN the tank) and put some water in it. Attach the tube the way you would attach the baloon, insert some air so that the water is displaced up one side of the U, and then you can get an accurate measure of how fast the air leaks. You won't get very much pressure however. -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re[3]: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
RV gang... Another item mentioned by Van in one of his newsletters was a Harmonic Balancer (wt 11 lbs.) mounted on the engine prop flange. Van gave a "it seems to work" rating, but this seems like an easy way to move the cg forward. I believe it came from Mark Landoll (sp?) .. he advertises in Sport Aviation and Kitplanes. Since I already have a O-320-E2G and am building an RV6A, I am also very interested in this CG disussion. And yes ... I know the -E2G won't work with the nose gear due to carb. clearance problems. Does anyone know of any Lycoming O-320-E2E (Cessna 172) oilpan and induction pipes for sale cheap (or trade) ??? Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 .... just on the way out of the door for a weeks glider flying vacation in Utah ..... YAHOO!!! >> Remember now, I don't yet own a set of plans and haven't been on >> the rv scene long, but looking at what pictures I have on unskinned >> fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the >> possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending >> the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my >> ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches >> to move the engine up to correct for aft CG. (I am talking about >> an RV-6 here. Add to "list of advantages of RV-6A over RV-6," >> Weight of nosewheel helps move CG forward with "light" engine >> installation.) > >Lengthing the fuselage would be one solution to the CofG problem, but this >is a rather major structural modification and I think would require a >detailed analysis by Van himself. Lengthening the engine mount and cowl >would probably be a simpler solution, but why is there a problem in the >first place? After all the RV-6 was designed as a conventional gear, >O-320, wood prop airplane. You would have thought that if there were a >problem, it would be from having the CG too far FORWARD, from using a >heavier engine and prop! > >On the same subject, there seems to be some unused space between the forward >instrument panel bulkhead and the firewall. I recall someone in Australia >used this area to mount a header tank. This might be a good way to shift >some of the fuel weight forward, at the expense of additional fuel system >complexity. Or, perhaps some kind of forward baggage compartment could be >built into this area? > >> last year, but I don't have them before this year. Also, Ivoprop's >> new, larger, non-Rotax propellers are interesting. They're >> developing an electric constant-speed system. Seems with these > >I am also wondering about these new Ivoprops. Sounds like they could be >very interesting. Anyone have any experience with these yet? The electric >CS would be real nice, but a ground adjustable type would be nearly as >useful, assuming the pitch adjustment is simple and quick. Just dial in >your expected pitch requirement for the flight and off you go. Anyone know >the rain erosion resistance and bolt tightening requirements of a carbon >fiber prop? > >Curt Reimer >RV-6 Builder ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Coaxial cable for antennas
I have access to "sample" coax cable thru work, and am trying to figure out what's the best to run to my nav/com antennas. As I understand it, RG-58/U is the stuff, but there are several choices listed, with different jacket materials, dialectrics, conductor sizes, Plenum rated or not, etc. Anyone know just what's the best to use? Also, there's a listing for MIN-C-17 with looks like the MIL-SPEC version of coax with higher fire ratings, etc. Would that be preferable? Randall Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Jun 10, 1994
Subject: Tank Test
>Here's an idea, >Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to >the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs, >20lbs, >then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. >Mike Wilson, RV-4 > Even 10 ibs/sq in seemed a little high until I thought about it. That >would be about 150 pounds pushing on each skin area but it is about the >eqivalent pressure you would see with a full load of fuel pulling about 8 >G's. It would certainly tell you if your tank is going to hold together. > Frank J. Frank and Cheryl are on the right track. If one side of the tank is about 46" long inside and about 20" wide, the area is 46"X20" = 920 sq"s. (I'm guessing, I don't have the prints in front of me) Multiply that by 10 Pounds/Square Inch and there is 9,200lbs total pressure. If the other side is about the same, the total pressure would be 18,400lbs total. A baloon should never let you get more that a couple of lbs of air, unless the air is shot in very fast. My choice is a couple of strokes on a bicycle pump. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 10, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Coaxial cable for antennas
Randall Henderson wrote: >I have access to "sample" coax cable thru work, and am trying to figure out >what's the best to run to my nav/com antennas. As I understand it, RG-58/U >is the stuff, but there are several choices listed, with different jacket >materials, dialectrics, conductor sizes, Plenum rated or not, etc. Anyone >know just what's the best to use? Also, there's a listing for MIN-C-17 with >looks like the MIL-SPEC version of coax with higher fire ratings, etc. Would >that be preferable? > Randall, I don't have my aircraft cable book here, but make sure that the cable you pick has a stranded (NOT solid like Radio Shack cable) center conductor, and a high shield coverage for the braid ... usually 95% or greater. Leads and braid that are labeled as "tinned copper" are easier to work with, and create better soldered joints. These items should be listed in your cable choices. Plenum rated is a commercial grade suitable for running in air ducting .. should resist more heat and give off less noxious fumes when burnt. But, in this case, the Mil Spec cables are the best, and don't even cost any more if you go to an industrial supplier. Your cost looks even lower though.... Some good choices from the Belden catalog (probably the largest US manufacturer) other manufacturers cables to the same Mil Spec are also equally good Belden 8262 MIL-C-17D ... standard Mil Spec Belden 9203 MIL-C-17E ... seems to be an updated version of above Belden 8219 RG58 A/U .... commercial grade with "foam" insulation - slightly lower loss, but negligable for our application The main troubles I have seen with co-ax cables is in the connectors. Be sure you carefully follow the assembly instructions for the connectors, and only buy top grade connectors ... intermittents and RF reflections caused by poor connectors with bad assembly and internal corrosion are always a bitch to trouble shoot and find. I prefer soldered joints for co-ax assembly for long term reliability. As I said in my last posting, I'm off on a gliding vacation, but if you wish to e-mail me later (or post on the rv-list), I can get easy mail order sources and prices for good quality co-ax connectors when I return on 6-20. have fun .... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 12, 1994
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes in Empannage
> > fuselages, I have wondered if anybody has tried, or what the > > possibility is, of building new, longer fuselage ribs and extending > > the distance between the canopy hinge point frame (excuse my > > ignorance of the exact terminology) and the firewall by a few inches > Lengthing the fuselage would be one solution to the CofG problem, but this > is a rather major structural modification and I think would require a > detailed analysis by Van himself. Lengthening the engine mount and cowl > would probably be a simpler solution, but why is there a problem in the I thought of that before thinking of lengthening ribs. It's a simpler solution if you want to learn to weld to build one engine mount and want to get into a lot of fiberglass mess to build a new cowl. Seems by the time you're that far along with the plane, you'd be pretty good at metal working. > Another item mentioned by Van in one of his newsletters was >a Harmonic Balancer (wt 11 lbs.) mounted on the engine prop flange. Van >gave a "it seems to work" rating, but this seems like an easy way to move >the cg forward. I believe it came from Mark Landoll (sp?) .. he advertises >in Sport Aviation and Kitplanes. My suggestion of moving the engine forward was based on the notion of maintaining proper CG without addition of extra weight. I'd like to take advantage of any weight reduction with increased load and/or/performance. > I am also wondering about these new Ivoprops. Sounds like they could be > very interesting. Anyone have any experience with these yet? The electric > CS would be real nice, but a ground adjustable type would be nearly as > useful, assuming the pitch adjustment is simple and quick. Just dial in > your expected pitch requirement for the flight and off you go. Anyone know As I understand it, ground adjustables are available now. I seem to recall that there is a screw in the hub that you turn to adjust the pitch. An interesting note about the Ivoprops: Instead of the blade rotating as in a CS prop to adjust pitch, the Ivoprop blades twist. When you think about how the speed of the blade through the air decreases the closer you are to the center, this makes a lot of sense. The Rotax versions had an electrically controlled pitch option, but it wasn't CS. The system they're working on now is CS. The Ivoprops also come in up to 6-blade configuration! It seems that they simply add more blades for greater power. The 6 blade was for something like 300HP. An RV would take something like a 3 or 4 blade. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle **Matronics** 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jun 12, 1994
Subject: Re: Questions
> > 1. Whats the email addr to subscribe to the list. A friend wants to join. > You can subscribe to the rv-list by sending a request to: rv-list-request(at)matronics.com Please include the following information: 1) An email address you wish to receive the rv-list postings at: 2) Your FirstName, LastName: 3) Your US Paper Mail Address: 4) Your Daytime Phone: 5) Your Evening Phone: 6) The type of RV you want/are building (RV-4, RV-6, etc.): > > 2. Where are all the messages archived at?? > The current rv-list archive is about 2.3 mb uncompressed. It is available via email request only, and is in a UNIX-style compress, and uuencode format. Send a email message to "rv-list-request(at)matronics.com" requesting "The latest rv-list archive file". Happy Building/Flying Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister)
Subject: Horiz. Stab. finished
Date: Jun 13, 1994
Well as Van would say " one piece finished and another step closer to completing my project." I think I learned so many ways not to build metal airplanes during this first piece. I have already put together by frame for the vertical stabilizer. I can tell I know what I am doing a little more so now since I think about several steps down the road for each action I take. It pays. I have also devised clever ways to speed progress as well as accuracy. Predrilling the ribs before mounting can generally be a real time saver. Thanks to this group I have regained my interst in the project. Thanks to all. I am having fun now! - Randy -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : | : Randy S. McCallister : : _________________|_________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : \ | | / : : : `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 : : /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 : :RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ________________________________________________________________________________
From: twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Date: Jun 13, 1994
Subject: Pitot plumbing
Hi all, I was working on running the plumbing for the pitot tube in the left wing this weekend and ran into a question (what else is new...) - what do you do with the other end of it? How long should you leave it? Any fittings? I got a few ideas from one of the Tony Bingalis (sp?) books, but I thought I'd solicit a few other opinions before I go off and do something I'll regret later. BTW - I also tested my left fuel tank using the balloon method suggested here. Success!! My wife couldn't understand why I was so pleased with myself at having blown up a balloon. Ah, the simple pleasures... Tom Goeddel RV-6A t.goeddel(at)att.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Possible WWW server for RV stuff.
I know this has nothing to do with RV's but can anyone give me the name of an FTP site where I an get MOSAIC for the MAC? Progress has been slow on my -4 as I am in midst of finalizing difficult personal financial situation (tranlate - messy divorce) but some progress is being made. Fuselage is on gear and have just about finished up panel, etc. Now I need to paint interior before I do final install of all cockpit goodies. Wings are ready for top skins, wing tips, etc. before mounting engine, cowl, etc. Should be a long, fun summer working on the RV! Happy flying and building to all! Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 Federal Program Manager Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 FORE Systems 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Pitot plumbing
Date: Jun 13, 1994
> > I was working on running the plumbing for the pitot tube in the left wing > this weekend and ran into a question (what else is new...) - what do you > do with the other end of it? How long should you leave it? Any fittings? > I got a few ideas from one of the Tony Bingalis (sp?) books, but > I thought I'd solicit a few other opinions before I go off and do something > I'll regret later. I plan on using standard AN flared fittings at the fuselage (ie. AN832) for the pitot and static lines, where all the lines will be aluminum (with enough of a loop for wing/fuselage vibration). I'm still scratching my head on the fuel and vent lines; I'd like to use the same approach, but am nervous about the vibration. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of using a rubber hose to a flared/bulkhead fitting (ie. AN807), but still deciding. The doubler for the RV6A main gear support tends to by in the way for the bulkhead fittings, but is workable. > > BTW - I also tested my left fuel tank using the balloon method suggested > here. Success!! My wife couldn't understand why I was so pleased with myself > at having blown up a balloon. Ah, the simple pleasures... Gee, it seems like everyone that tests their tanks with the balloon method passes with flying colors (me included). Its either a very good test or a very bad test. > > Tom Goeddel > RV-6A > t.goeddel(at)att.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jun 13, 1994
Subject: Fast-Build Wing for RV
I looked at the components in the wing fast-build kit that Van's is now selling this weekend. Like a lot of things it will be right for some people and not others. The kit consists of all the smaller pieces completely drilled and finished. I estimate that a really good builder working on his first airplane and able to see other people's projects will save about 100 hours of work and about 50 hours of head-scratching time. For an average builder working alone add about 100 more hours. The workmanship on all the components is excellent and everything looks professional. Most of it does not show in the finish product however. My advice? For the typical builder who enjoys building and/or is short of money, don't get the fast-build kit. If on the other hand you are desperate to get into the air and have plenty of money, this kit could save you one or two months of time. Keep in mind however that the parts in this kit only represent about one-fourth of the time required to build your wings, and none are particularly tricky to do yourself. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1994
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
James M Wilson
Subject: Re[2]: Testing fuel tank
Hi RVer's, Its been a real bad couple of days here at work, we lost our major site mail host with a disk crash and I have had had to spend a lot of RV building time beating the mail host back into shape. Fortunately I was able to divert a lot of our incoming mail to a Unix box with a big disk, this list sure has been busy since the "advertisement" in the rec.aviation lists. Now down to the important stuff!!- ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank Date: 09/6/94 11:30 AM >Here's an idea, >Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to >the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs, >20lbs, then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. >Then watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks >are present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water >will show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have >a way to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC >systems, what do you think? >Let me know if this works, I'm building my tanks now. >Mike Wilson, RV-4 Mike, Don't waste your money. If you try pumping that sort of pressure into your tank you will have some very nice bulging effects. All I did with my first RV tanks was dampen the 'O' ring on the fuel cap with some fuel - this is the major source of all tank leaks - blow up a kid's toy balloon and attach it to the outlet of the tank. If the balloon is still inflated after two or three days you have a good tank. On thing to look out for is the fact that balloons do go down by themselves after a few days, so blow up a second balloon as a 'control'. Compare the two each day and they should be the same size. >Hi all, >So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of >filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting >while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell >that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. >This process >also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if >there is a leak (besides cry)? >As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will >improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it >is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip >up the tab? Will it loosen up over time? See my comment above, the rubber seal needs a bit of a swim in some AVGAS to soften the rubber and get a nice seal. >One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to >seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts >store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab >of ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)? Proseal was all I used. >Tanks once more for the help. >(sorry...it's still early here) Oh PLEEEEEASE!! :-) >Tom Goeddel >RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal" >t.goeddel(at)att.com John Morrissey VH-HRV RV-6 VH-??? RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 13, 1994
From: James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com>
Subject: Re[3]: Testing fuel tank
Geee!!! I was just thinking out-loud. I really didn't mean to imply using the fuel tank as an alternate reservoir for my Air-Tool compressor. Sure generated some good input on the subject though. I've been watching the mail. The balloon idea sounds like the way to go. Thanks, MikeWilson Hi RVer's, Its been a real bad couple of days here at work, we lost our major site mail host with a disk crash and I have had had to spend a lot of RV building time beating the mail host back into shape. Fortunately I was able to divert a lot of our incoming mail to a Unix box with a big disk, this list sure has been busy since the "advertisement" in the rec.aviation lists. Now down to the important stuff!!- ______________________________ Reply Separator _______________________________ __ Subject: Re: Testing fuel tank Date: 09/6/94 11:30 AM >Here's an idea, >Rent one of those natural gas line (mercury gauge) pressure testers. Rig it to >the sealed tank. Pump air pressure to something safe (experiment: 10lbs, >20lbs, then 30lbs, more??). Any input out there on recommended test pressure. >Then watch the pressure gauge to see how it hold pressure over time. If leaks >are present, find them with a water spray bottle and soapy water. Soapy water >will show bubbles if leak is present. You would then know what to fix and have >a way to check your work. This is the way I used to find leaks in auto AC >systems, what do you think? >Let me know if this works, I'm building my tanks now. >Mike Wilson, RV-4 Mike, Don't waste your money. If you try pumping that sort of pressure into your tank you will have some very nice bulging effects. All I did with my first RV tanks was dampen the 'O' ring on the fuel cap with some fuel - this is the major source of all tank leaks - blow up a kid's toy balloon and attach it to the outlet of the tank. If the balloon is still inflated after two or three days you have a good tank. On thing to look out for is the fact that balloons do go down by themselves after a few days, so blow up a second balloon as a 'control'. Compare the two each day and they should be the same size. >Hi all, >So... now that I've finished the left fuel tank, how do I test it short of >filling it with gasoline? I tried blowing gently on the fuel line fitting >while holding fingers over the vent and drain holes, and could tell >that the fuel cap is not making a perfect seal, but not much else. >This process >also does not lend itself to prolonged testing... What does one do if >there is a leak (besides cry)? >As far as the fuel cap leak, I assume tightening the nut on the inside will >improve the seal, although I hate to make it any harder to open than it >is already. Does any one else have trouble getting their fingers in to flip >up the tab? Will it loosen up over time? See my comment above, the rubber seal needs a bit of a swim in some AVGAS to soften the rubber and get a nice seal. >One last question (for now, at least) - what, if anything, should be used to >seal the threads on the fuel tank drain plug? Are the regular auto parts >store variety teflon-based thread sealants ok for this? Maybe a little dab >of ProSeal will do (great for hair, too...)? Proseal was all I used. >Tanks once more for the help. >(sorry...it's still early here) Oh PLEEEEEASE!! :-) >Tom Goeddel >RV-6A "The Spirit of ProSeal" >t.goeddel(at)att.com John Morrissey VH-HRV RV-6 VH-??? RV-4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1994
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
Subject: Re[2]: Possible WWW server for RV stuff.
Hi Richard, The answer to your question is:-- ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu Directory mac/mosaic Version 2 for MAC was released last Friday. BTW:- Due to a very busy work schedule I am still working on the first release of the WWW page for RV's. Due out next week I hope. Enjoy!! John Morrissey >I know this has nothing to do with RV's but can anyone give me the name of >an FTP site where I an get MOSAIC for the MAC? >Progress has been slow on my -4 as I am in midst of finalizing difficult >personal financial situation (tranlate - messy divorce) but some progress >is being made. >Fuselage is on gear and have just about finished up panel, etc. Now I >need to paint interior before I do final install of all cockpit goodies. >Wings are ready for top skins, wing tips, etc. before mounting engine, >cowl, etc. >Should be a long, fun summer working on the RV! >Happy flying and building to all! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Coaxial cable for antennas
When I bought my Flybuddy and KX-125, they came with ample coax and connectors (solder type). dw _________________________________________________________________________ Randall Henderson wrote: >I have access to "sample" coax cable thru work, and am trying to figure out >what's the best to run to my nav/com antennas. As I understand it, RG-58/U >is the stuff, but there are several choices listed, with different jacket >materials, dialectrics, conductor sizes, Plenum rated or not, etc. Anyone >know just what's the best to use? Also, there's a listing for MIN-C-17 with >looks like the MIL-SPEC version of coax with higher fire ratings, etc. Would >that be preferable? > Randall, I don't have my aircraft cable book here, but make sure that the cable you pick has a stranded (NOT solid like Radio Shack cable) center conductor, and a high shield coverage for the braid ... usually 95% or greater. Leads and braid that are labeled as "tinned copper" are easier to work with, and create better soldered joints. These items should be listed in your cable choices. Plenum rated is a commercial grade suitable for running in air ducting .. should resist more heat and give off less noxious fumes when burnt. But, in this case, the Mil Spec cables are the best, and don't even cost any more if you go to an industrial supplier. Your cost looks even lower though.... Some good choices from the Belden catalog (probably the largest US manufacturer) other manufacturers cables to the same Mil Spec are also equally good Belden 8262 MIL-C-17D ... standard Mil Spec Belden 9203 MIL-C-17E ... seems to be an updated version of above Belden 8219 RG58 A/U .... commercial grade with "foam" insulation - slightly lower loss, but negligable for our application The main troubles I have seen with co-ax cables is in the connectors. Be sure you carefully follow the assembly instructions for the connectors, and only buy top grade connectors ... intermittents and RF reflections caused by poor connectors with bad assembly and internal corrosion are always a bitch to trouble shoot and find. I prefer soldered joints for co-ax assembly for long term reliability. As I said in my last posting, I'm off on a gliding vacation, but if you wish to e-mail me later (or post on the rv-list), I can get easy mail order sources and prices for good quality co-ax connectors when I return on 6-20. have fun .... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 14, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Scappoose Fly-In - my report
Well, I went to the RV Fly in at Scappoose this weekend. (first time I've gone there via ground transportation). I got my first sunburn of the summer. I also got a really good look at about 38 (Don's count) examples of Van's product. It was very interesting to see the little bits that people did differently. The two things I noticed that varied the most were the wingtip/lighting treatments and of course, the Panels. I took pictures of some of those. Interesting that nobody had used the engine monitor I had asked about a while ago (The 5" sq. LCD panel with the simulated dials), but a couple of people spoke highly of the Rocky Mountain Instruments unit, which costs about 1/3th as much and takes half the panel space. It was also my first chance to see examples of both good and bad craftsmanship. There was a -3 there with a beautiful paint job - laid over terribly rippled wings, the skins held on by round headed rivits. There were some immaculate -6As. In a few cases, I could tell which elevator had been done first. Some people were obviously fast learners. I also got my first ride in one of the factory planes (the blue -6A). Wow. 160 HP is plenty! What a rush on the take off. (And I'm well above the FAA standard). Getting to ride in one of these after doing all my training in a C-150 is like learning to drive in a VW Beetle and then being plopped down in the seat of a Jag. Definite building inspiration, and proof that I'll need some training before I fly mine - way in the future. As I've said, I'm still in the saving up to buy a garage to build it in stage. This was probably the first time other than a roller coaster I've pulled three Gs. Whee! Time to work on my Cardio-Vascular fitness. My arms felt dead and my brain felt like it was being squashed. It took a little getting used to to fly it, since even the Taylorcraft uses a yoke, and I didn't have much time (Low fuel at the end of a day of flying Young Eagles). Also, sitting in the right seat, all the instruments I would want to look at were not where I could look at them easily. Nonetheless, it was smooth, responsive, and capable. And Fast. Real estate passed underneath about twice as fast as I was used to. The negative impression I've got about the 6-A design is seeing just how much the gear leg brackets protrude into the cockpit. Ugh. Another point scored for the -6. Several of the planes were done but not painted. One, a -6A, was having trouble starting the engine and a guy over by one of the immaculate -6As said "That's what happens when you don't paint your plane, the engine won't start." This is a factor I was unaware of. :-) Anyway, it was fun, I got to look at a lot of great planes, and it's only increased my determination to do this as soon as I can. -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 15, 1994
Subject: Russellville, AL RV gathering
I was going to come into work this morning and tell the RV-listers about my experience at the Russellville RV gathering this past weekend, only to find that I had been already upstaged by Richard Chandler's account of the Scappoose fly-in. Well, here goes anyway: I was really excited about an RV gathering being here in Alabama. Although I had determined that an RV-6 was what I wanted to build, I had never seen a Van's product in person. When I woke up Saturday morning to a driving rain, I was afraid that it was all over, but since this was all I had to do last weekend, I went anyway. All I'd be out would be a tank of gas if no one was there. Well, once I was north of Birmingham and through the weather front, the overcast broke up. I started to become excited when I passed the "Russellville city limit" sign and turned onto the airport road. I looked up to see a small fast plane with rectangular wings fly over. My heart started to pound. I turned into the airport, and started down the gravel lane leading to the hangars. I could see RV-3s and RV-4s in the shadows beneath the roofs. Just then, Johnny and Brenda Malone's beautiful metallic-Burgandy-with-gray-stripes RV-6 taxied out from behind the building. I almost drove off the road! There were RVs all over the place! The first thing I noticed about the RVs is that they sure look good in person! They were fantastic looking little planes. The pictures in magazines and videos do these things no justice. I registered, and then spent hours looking at planes and talking to fliers, builders and other hopefuls like myself. There were a total of six RVs there: One RV-3, three RV-4s, one RV-6 and one RV-6A, so there was at least one of each to drool over. It was interesting to see the little differences between planes. Like Richard at Scappoose, I was particurly interested in lighting and panel choices. (There was some discussion here about strobe lights on the wingtips. The choices seemed to be (1) power supply in fuselage with HV wires past fuel tanks (dangerous), or (2) Individual power supplies in the wingtips (heavy). I don't undertand putting the strobes in the wingtips, when the top of the tail seems to be an adequate place.) Carl and "Bing" Crausby had a nice door into the baggage compartment on the side of their -6A. Someone told them that Van had been looking it over at a fly-in. Carl points out that in the event of a turnover, He can escape through the door. Other, larger, attendees pointed out that they could not. Johnny Malone pointed out that his -6 (N126JB) was the 26th set of plans (20026) and was the 9th -6 to fly. Overall, the RVs seemed to be excellent designs. However, I was disapointed that the cowling isn't easier to remove. (I've been reading Kas "preflight-the-engine-every-time" Thomas' books.) I was also interested in seeing engine installations. I realize that six RVs may not be much compared to some of the fly-ins in other parts of the country, but I thought it was pretty good here. (The state of Alabama has 1/4 the population of New York CITY.) The weather kept away at least another five that I heard of. Two RVs from Tuscaloosa flew up over the top at 8000', but couldn't find a hole to get to the ground, so went back home. When the planes were lined up for photographs, and you look at them through a long camera lens, It looks like the Merced fly-in in Van's video! Anyway, one must admit that that one -6A sat at a peculiar angle in the line-up! Of course, the most exciting part of the day was when I was looking at Richard Caretti's (His fellow chapter members were calling him "Daffy." Don't know if I should have gotten into a plane with him at the controls.) RV-4, and he asked if I had ever flown in an RV before. I said, "No," and he said, "Well, hop in!" We went 10 feet down the runway, lifted off, and climbed vertically. (OK, I exagerate a little.) We made a couple of low, high-speed passes over the airport, and went a little far away when I asked for a roll. So he did a couple. That was a blast. (My first rolls) He then demonstrated the low-speed flying characteristics. He put down the flaps (passenger, watch your left foot!), and slowed the plane. We assumed a very node up attitude. He added a little power in the back side of the power curve AND WE CAME TO A COMPLETE STOP! (OK, I exagerate again.) I thank Richard for his generosity. He was flying people most of the day. What was the result of the day? One VERY frustrated PhD student who can't start one of these until he graduates in a year and gets a better-paying job. But I do have an album of photographs that sits on my desk, and when the dissertation research is not going well, and I'm tired of working on it, I lean back in my chair, flip through the photographs, and am motiovated to get back to work. John Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "John M. Brown" <jmbrown(at)straw.berry.com>
Subject: RV-6 1/4 Scale RC Kits
Date: Jun 14, 1994
We are in the final process of test flying a RC 1/4 Scale RV-6 airplane, and are wondering what interest there might be for such a kit. If you are interested in a 1/4 Scale RC RV-6(A) kit please let me know. We should have an email-able info packet in a couple of weeks. I will mail this infor packet out to those that send in a request. Basicly the parts are made of composite materials, to allow a fast build plane. From the outside it will look and feel like a RV-6(A). Final powerplant choice will be made in the coming weeks, as we are playing with several different types, sizes. For those that would like to see what it looks like, etc. We plan on having it for show at Oshkosh. More information to follow....... Again please send email if you, or you know someone who is, interested to: RV-Kits(at)straw.berry.com or jmbrown(at)netcom.com PS: We are thinking of RV-4's and RV-3's if there is some demand. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup
Well, after talking to Van's, I have decided to add at least a few additional lightening holes to my empannage ribs. I spoke to Bill at Van's regarding the photographs in the manual (in which the ribs look like swiss cheese!) and he said that a lot of extra lightening holes were cut out on the prototype, but omitted from the production kits as being too much extra work. He basically said go ahead and cut as many as you like, in fact, you don't even need to bend the stiffener rings, as the empannage ribs are "non-structural" (his words). I don't know if I would agree completely with this, I mean if they are non-structural, why not just omit them completely ? :) I think I will use the HS405s as my pattern, and leave a good amount of material in between the holes, as well as adding the stiffener rings for good measure. I'll weigh the removed pieces and figure out just how much this will help the RV-6 CofG/Baggage situation, and post the results here. Curt Reimer RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Scappoose Fly-In - my report
Yakko, did we talk at the fly-in? Don't know how you knew I counted 38, since I don't recall meeting you (not that I WOULD remember everything, BUSY day). I do remember meeting at least one member of this list. 2 more late arrivals, one from Sun River OR and one from Eureka CA brought the 'official' count to 40. Don Goetz dropped-in in his Lancair 4P, 4-bladed prop and all. To say he is biased towards Lancairs wouldn't be doing it justice. I didn't bother getting in an argument with him, I was still glowing with good will after our very enjoyable RV gathering. He did grace us with an extremely high speed fly-by on his way out. Man that thing can move! There were some RVs there with RMI units, but I know them from past experience, you may not have seen them amongst the many. One had the altimeter unit, another was an RV-4 that had both units. Glad you got your ride, there were 2 of Van's planes there with Ken Scott and Bill Benedict giving rides all day. Local -6 builder Dan Delano evidently didn't want them to have all the fun, as he flew all day and he and Bill were STILL giving rides at 4:00, 2 hours after everyone else had left. What a day, we had a ball, served 200+ lunches, blackjack flight gave us a couple of slick formation fly-bys, including one with 8 F-15 Eagles 'flying cover', from the local NG base (I'm not telling how I arranged that! :-). Randall's T-shirts were AWESOME! We will try to post the graphic. We sold-out the 80 we had in 2 hours, so are going for a reprint. I missed rolling my -6 out by 1 week, didn't get the fuse painted (because of the @*%#ing fiberglass)! Did have the wings and stuff on display in my hanger, at least. Finish painting this saturday... don wentz Well, I went to the RV Fly in at Scappoose this weekend. (first time I've gone there via ground transportation). I got my first sunburn of the summer. I also got a really good look at about 38 (Don's count) examples of Van's product. It was very interesting to see the little bits that people did differently. The two things I noticed that varied the most were the wingtip/lighting treatments and of course, the Panels. I took pictures of some of those. Interesting that nobody had used the engine monitor I had asked about a while ago (The 5" sq. LCD panel with the simulated dials), but a couple of people spoke highly of the Rocky Mountain Instruments unit, which costs about 1/3th as much and takes half the panel space. It was also my first chance to see examples of both good and bad craftsmanship. There was a -3 there with a beautiful paint job - laid over terribly rippled wings, the skins held on by round headed rivits. There were some immaculate -6As. In a few cases, I could tell which elevator had been done first. Some people were obviously fast learners. I also got my first ride in one of the factory planes (the blue -6A). Wow. 160 HP is plenty! What a rush on the take off. (And I'm well above the FAA standard). Getting to ride in one of these after doing all my training in a C-150 is like learning to drive in a VW Beetle and then being plopped down in the seat of a Jag. Definite building inspiration, and proof that I'll need some training before I fly mine - way in the future. As I've said, I'm still in the saving up to buy a garage to build it in stage. This was probably the first time other than a roller coaster I've pulled three Gs. Whee! Time to work on my Cardio-Vascular fitness. My arms felt dead and my brain felt like it was being squashed. It took a little getting used to to fly it, since even the Taylorcraft uses a yoke, and I didn't have much time (Low fuel at the end of a day of flying Young Eagles). Also, sitting in the right seat, all the instruments I would want to look at were not where I could look at them easily. Nonetheless, it was smooth, responsive, and capable. And Fast. Real estate passed underneath about twice as fast as I was used to. The negative impression I've got about the 6-A design is seeing just how much the gear leg brackets protrude into the cockpit. Ugh. Another point scored for the -6. Several of the planes were done but not painted. One, a -6A, was having trouble starting the engine and a guy over by one of the immaculate -6As said "That's what happens when you don't paint your plane, the engine won't start." This is a factor I was unaware of. :-) Anyway, it was fun, I got to look at a lot of great planes, and it's only increased my determination to do this as soon as I can. -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Re: Scappoose Fly-In - my report
> Yakko, did we talk at the fly-in? Don't know how you knew I > counted 38, since I don't recall meeting you (not that I WOULD remember > everything, BUSY day). I do remember meeting at least one member of > this list. 2 more late arrivals, one from Sun River OR and one from > Eureka CA brought the 'official' count to 40. Your wife pointed you out to me as the one in the pink baseball cap. I was the long haired guy with the greek fisherman's cap on, grey t-shirt, and black jeans. I asked you how many you had when I saw you walking around with the list of tail numbers, and I asked you how many of them were on the mailing list. This weekend I'll be up around Seattle and I plan on checking out that Boeing surplus store. How can you tell a good rivet gun from a worn out one? By the way, the quote in my .sig comes from an afternoon cartoon called Animaniacs. In this one episode the characters go to harass, er, help, Michaelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel. I like the quote enough that the full length of it is on my answering machine. It confuses people. -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Russellville, AL RV gathering
Hey John , qty is nice, but I'd say your objectives were covered: at least 1 of each type, nice folks, A RIDE! Great job on the writeup too. don wentz -------------------------------------------------------------------- I was going to come into work this morning and tell the RV-listers about my experience at the Russellville RV gathering this past weekend, only to find that I had been already upstaged by Richard Chandler's account of the Scappoose fly-in. Well, here goes anyway: I was really excited about an RV gathering being here in Alabama. Although I had determined that an RV-6 was what I wanted to build, I had never seen a Van's product in person. When I woke up Saturday morning to a driving rain, I was afraid that it was all over, but since this was all I had to do last weekend, I went anyway. All I'd be out would be a tank of gas if no one was there. Well, once I was north of Birmingham and through the weather front, the overcast broke up. I started to become excited when I passed the "Russellville city limit" sign and turned onto the airport road. I looked up to see a small fast plane with rectangular wings fly over. My heart started to pound. I turned into the airport, and started down the gravel lane leading to the hangars. I could see RV-3s and RV-4s in the shadows beneath the roofs. Just then, Johnny and Brenda Malone's beautiful metallic-Burgandy-with-gray-stripes RV-6 taxied out from behind the building. I almost drove off the road! There were RVs all over the place! The first thing I noticed about the RVs is that they sure look good in person! They were fantastic looking little planes. The pictures in magazines and videos do these things no justice. I registered, and then spent hours looking at planes and talking to fliers, builders and other hopefuls like myself. There were a total of six RVs there: One RV-3, three RV-4s, one RV-6 and one RV-6A, so there was at least one of each to drool over. It was interesting to see the little differences between planes. Like Richard at Scappoose, I was particurly interested in lighting and panel choices. (There was some discussion here about strobe lights on the wingtips. The choices seemed to be (1) power supply in fuselage with HV wires past fuel tanks (dangerous), or (2) Individual power supplies in the wingtips (heavy). I don't undertand putting the strobes in the wingtips, when the top of the tail seems to be an adequate place.) Carl and "Bing" Crausby had a nice door into the baggage compartment on the side of their -6A. Someone told them that Van had been looking it over at a fly-in. Carl points out that in the event of a turnover, He can escape through the door. Other, larger, attendees pointed out that they could not. Johnny Malone pointed out that his -6 (N126JB) was the 26th set of plans (20026) and was the 9th -6 to fly. Overall, the RVs seemed to be excellent designs. However, I was disapointed that the cowling isn't easier to remove. (I've been reading Kas "preflight-the-engine-every-time" Thomas' books.) I was also interested in seeing engine installations. I realize that six RVs may not be much compared to some of the fly-ins in other parts of the country, but I thought it was pretty good here. (The state of Alabama has 1/4 the population of New York CITY.) The weather kept away at least another five that I heard of. Two RVs from Tuscaloosa flew up over the top at 8000', but couldn't find a hole to get to the ground, so went back home. When the planes were lined up for photographs, and you look at them through a long camera lens, It looks like the Merced fly-in in Van's video! Anyway, one must admit that that one -6A sat at a peculiar angle in the line-up! Of course, the most exciting part of the day was when I was looking at Richard Caretti's (His fellow chapter members were calling him "Daffy." Don't know if I should have gotten into a plane with him at the controls.) RV-4, and he asked if I had ever flown in an RV before. I said, "No," and he said, "Well, hop in!" We went 10 feet down the runway, lifted off, and climbed vertically. (OK, I exagerate a little.) We made a couple of low, high-speed passes over the airport, and went a little far away when I asked for a roll. So he did a couple. That was a blast. (My first rolls) He then demonstrated the low-speed flying characteristics. He put down the flaps (passenger, watch your left foot!), and slowed the plane. We assumed a very node up attitude. He added a little power in the back side of the power curve AND WE CAME TO A COMPLETE STOP! (OK, I exagerate again.) I thank Richard for his generosity. He was flying people most of the day. What was the result of the day? One VERY frustrated PhD student who can't start one of these until he graduates in a year and gets a better-paying job. But I do have an album of photographs that sits on my desk, and when the dissertation research is not going well, and I'm tired of working on it, I lean back in my chair, flip through the photographs, and am motiovated to get back to work. John Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 15, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Scappoose Fly-In - my report
Richard Chandler wrote: > > This weekend I'll be up around Seattle and I plan on checking out that Boeing > surplus store. How can you tell a good rivet gun from a worn out one? The worn out ones are on the shelf at Boeing Surplus. The good ones are at Avery Tool supply :-) Seriously though, you may find some good air tools but don't count on it. You'll probably have better luck with the various hand tools, bits, bucking bars and that type of thing. Just keep an open mind -- some of my favorite tools are ones I never knew existed before I saw em at Boeing surplus and bought em just cause they were cheap. Randall Henderson RV-6 (on the tailwheel side of the fence today) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 16, 1994
From: Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com>
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup
> Well, after talking to Van's, I have decided to add at least a few >additional lightening holes to my empannage ribs. I spoke to Bill at Van's >regarding the photographs in the manual (in which the ribs look like swiss >cheese!) and he said that a lot of extra lightening holes were cut out on >the prototype, but omitted from the production kits as being too much >extra work. He basically said go ahead and cut as many as you like, in >fact, you don't even need to bend the stiffener rings, as the empannage >ribs are "non-structural" (his words). I don't know if I would agree >completely with this, I mean if they are non-structural, why not just omit >them completely ? :) I left them out of my tail!! >I think I will use the HS405s as my pattern, and leave >a good amount of material in between the holes, as well as adding the >stiffener rings for good measure. I'll weigh the removed pieces and figure >out just how much this will help the RV-6 CofG/Baggage situation, and post >the results here. > >Curt Reimer >RV-6 I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again I would NOT primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should it every corrode in the next 25 year!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Jun 17, 1994
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup
I can't tell who sends what anymore, what with the way our system chews up headers, but I think it was Chris Schulte who posted: >> Well, after talking to Van's, I have decided to add at least a few >>additional lightening holes to my empannage ribs. I spoke to Bill at Van's >>regarding the photographs in the manual (in which the ribs look like swiss >>cheese!) and he said that a lot of extra lightening holes were cut out on >>the prototype, but omitted from the production kits as being too much >>extra work. He basically said go ahead and cut as many as you like, in >>fact, you don't even need to bend the stiffener rings, as the empannage >>ribs are "non-structural" (his words). I don't know if I would agree >>completely with this, I mean if they are non-structural, why not just omit >>them completely ? :) > I left them out of my tail!! I assume you mean you left the lightening holes out, not the ribs. You did mean the lightening holes, didn't you? Please say you meant the lightening holes? It looks to me like the ribs might not add anything structurally to the tail in bending, but they certainly handle compression/tension loads (read: lift) over the surface. Some of this (probably most) is carried by the fwd spar, but I'd be concerned about the leading edge holding it's shape at high speeds or with large elevator deflections. I'd at least want to see or do some analysis on this before I took someone's word for it over the phone. Am I overreacting here? >I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again >I would NOT primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should >it every corrode in the next 25 year!! I considered this, but primer sure is cheap insurance. I live in a high humidity (it's 75 deg and 99% humidity now, and it's not even 0730!) salt-air area, so I'm priming everything. Your environment is something to consider. Another thing to consider: How easy is it to inspect the parts you aren't priming? It's not easy to build a new tail if you can't inspect it and don't find the corrosion until the tail fails in flight. Dave Hyde Delaying Proseal until the last minute. davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 17, 1994
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup
> I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again I would NOT > primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should it every corrode in the > next 25 year!! > > One interesting thing I learned from the builders at Russellville: Many did not prime at all, and those who did said that if they built another, they wouldn't prime. The general line of thought was, "It'll still be here when I'm gone, so why should I take more time building instead of flying?" John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Russellville, AL RV gathering
John Henderson wrote: > I don't undertand putting the strobes > in the wingtips, when the top of the tail seems to be an adequate place.) I'm doing it that way (in the wing tips). The reason is you can buy 3-in one wingtip lights that include everything you need to satisfy the requirements for night flight (green or red nav light, strobe light, and white nav light) in one module, with local power supplies at the wing tips, and just run the wires for those and the landing lights thru a conduit in the wings and not have to run any wires out to the tail or mess with the horizontal stabilizer or rudder fairings or have extra weight back there. Simple but expensive, and a little heavier, but the weight isn't aft of C.G, and no long high voltage wires to mess up my radio reception. > However, I was > disapointed that the cowling isn't easier to remove. (I've been > reading Kas "preflight-the-engine-every-time" Thomas' books.) > I was also interested in seeing engine installations. I've seen were some folks have used dzus fasteners instead of the normal hinge arrangement to hold the cowl on. They didn't look bad but obviously the fasteners are much more visible than the internalized hinge. Worth looking into I think. Nice fly-in report John, sounds like it was fun! I live for those things. Actually, I live for the day I can fly in MYSELF in MY OWN RV. Randall RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup
On Fri, 17 Jun 1994 davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil wrote: > > I left them out of my tail!! > > I assume you mean you left the lightening holes out, not the ribs. > You did mean the lightening holes, didn't you? Please say you meant > the lightening holes? > > It looks to me like the ribs might not add anything structurally to > the tail in bending, but they certainly handle compression/tension > loads (read: lift) over the surface. Some of this (probably most) > is carried by the fwd spar, but I'd be concerned about the leading > edge holding it's shape at high speeds or with large elevator > deflections. I'd at least want to see or do some analysis on this > before I took someone's word for it over the phone. Am I overreacting > here? Well, I agree somewhat with this, but if we can't take Van's aircraft word for something like this, then who's word can we take? Really, I would have preferred to talk to Van himself about this, but I was happy just to get through at all! However, lets analyze this a bit on our own. The photographs of the prototype in the manual show tail ribs that have had virtually ALL possible material removed, and no stiffening rings are apparent. I only removed about half the material that the prototype has, and I plan to add stiffening rings as well. Lightening holes basically remove material in the web area of a structural member, while leaving the important parts (the flanges) intact. Thus, while lightening holes may reduce the weight by as much as, say, 50%, they would only reduce the STRENGTH by a fraction of that amount. If I sound like I know what I am talking about, be assured that I don't! :). I am a novice when it comes to aircraft structure analysis. However, I have noticed that just about every picture of a sheet metal aircraft rib that I have ever seen (cut away views of B-17s etc) reveals lightening holes. Some composite aircraft, like KR-1s and 2s for example, use STYROFOAM for the ribs. Surely styrofoam ribs can not be carrying anything but mild compression loads. I think the primary purpose of ribs is simply to force the skin to conform to the proper airfoil shape. Of course they will also help distribute the lifting loads from the skins to the spars, and stiffen the structure in tortion somewhat. Any aircraft structural engineers out there who can clarify this whole thing? Bottom line: I hope to meet Van the man at least once before I complete and fly my RV, and I will make sure that what I have done is OK, or else build a new tail. If anyone else is considering cutting lightening holes, my advice in any case would be: Don't Bother. I saved a grand total of two (2) ounces in my horizontal stab, at a cost of probably 3-4 hours extra work, and less peace of mind. The benefit is that I will be able to carry a whopping 7 ounces of extra baggage in my baggage compartment! > >I was very light on the primer in the tail too... If I did it again > >I would NOT primer the tail. It's easy to build another one should > >it every corrode in the next 25 year!! > > I considered this, but primer sure is cheap insurance. I live in a > high humidity (it's 75 deg and 99% humidity now, and it's not even 0730!) > salt-air area, so I'm priming everything. Your environment is something > to consider. Another thing to consider: How easy is it to inspect the > parts you aren't priming? It's not easy to build a new tail if you can't > inspect it and don't find the corrosion until the tail fails in flight. I agree. Even though I live in a fairly dry climate, the airplane could end up anywhere. I could move, sell it to a coastal dweller, etc. And corrosion doesn't just happen suddenly every 25 years. It can gradually weaken the primary structure year by year and once it starts, assuming you even notice it, then what? Ignore it because it "ain't so bad" or spend $$$ and time with your airplane grounded while you "easily" build another tail? Whew, that was a long post. Anyone still awake? Curt Reimer creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
Date: Jun 17, 1994
Subject: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates
Hi, Last night we started drilling the holes through the spars and splice plates. This is really tense work. I can see why Van does that in most of the kits. It's going ok but talk about sweating bullets. It won't be long now until the spar/bulkhead assembly will be complete. I decided to metalprep and alodine the spar. What's the best way to use this stuff? Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Additional Lightening Holes: Followup
Regarding lightening holes in the empennage: I think Curt is on the right track. I considered cutting out extra lightening holes in the tail after hearing Van harp so much on weight savings, and in light of the fact that I primed the tail (and everything else, having dealt with airframe corrosion before and not interested in ever doing so again). But back then I was afeard to go outside the plans. I've since discovered much the same things that Curt has, namely that there's a lot of opportunity for saving weight that isn't nevessarily in the plans or instructions, and that in "real" airplanes they often go a lot farther than what we do in the typical RV. And Art Chard, who builds Van's prototypes, cuts all kinds of extra lightening holes as well as tapering stiffener angles, etc. to save every possible ounce. Which yields a good tip: look closely at the photos in the manual - they contain a lot of "Art Chard specials" that aren't in the plans, and I'd be comfortable following his lead. (Of course there are also things that are obsolete in the photos so watch out for that). A side note to this: I have a lot of extra 1/2" dia holes in my wing ribs as a result of the fact that I kept changing my mind about where I was going to route the wiring conduit. I call em "bonus lightening holes...." Randall Henderson RV-6 (no wimpy nose wheel -- until I change my mind again that is :-) ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 17, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Farewell for awhile....
RV-list, tomorrow is the first day of a 9 week vacation for me. We will be painting the last of my RV-6 parts tomorrow and begin final assembly Sunday. Hope to have it inspected and first flight within 1-2 weeks. I'll try to get a modem up and running at home so I can report my progress to the list, if not Randall can pass it along or something. Lots of great dialog and info lately gang, keep it up! If all goes well, I will be flying it to Osh this year, hope to see some of you there. don wentz, RV-6 N790DW 180hp (July 15, 1994 would be 4 years, appx 2800hrs) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Jun 20, 1994
Subject: Re: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates/spare ribs
Cheryl Sanchez askes: >I decided to metalprep and alodine the spar. What's the best >way to use this stuff? I made dip tanks out of plastic gutter and end caps. I bought a 12' length (I think) and cut it into shorter lengths, capping the end with self-sealing end caps. Worked great, and I was able to recycle the alodine. BTW, I also noted that alodine once used will freeze (It got _cold_ this winter!) but alodine not used (but opened) will not. At least that's what happened to me. More on tail ribs: OK, maybe I overreacted, but I still think the ribs are at least partially responsible for maintaining the airfoil shape under aero loads. If others have done it, well, experiments sometimes prove theory wrong. I still like to hear and/or see some justification for a lot of the mods homebuilders make other than "it looks about right". As for having heard it from someone at Van's, yes, that's the best place to hear it, but my point was I'd like to make sure the analysis or testing was done rather than just hearing what _might_have_been_ an off-the-cuff remark over the phone. Q: Was it _all_ the ribs they were referring to omitting, or just the center ones, or what? Now I'm curious. (But mine will stay where they are!) Dave Hyde, professional skeptic :) davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil Cold winter, hot summer. I have to store my Proseal at work now since it says "Store below 80F'. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates/spare ribs (fwd)
Date: Jun 20, 1994
> From tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com Mon Jun 20 11:48:43 1994 > From: tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-3 Spar/Splice plates/spare ribs > > Cheryl Sanchez askes: > > >I decided to metalprep and alodine the spar. What's the best > >way to use this stuff? > > I made dip tanks out of plastic gutter and end caps. I bought > a 12' length (I think) and cut it into shorter lengths, capping > the end with self-sealing end caps. Worked great, and I was able > to recycle the alodine. > > BTW, I also noted that alodine once used will freeze (It got > _cold_ this winter!) but alodine not used (but opened) will > not. At least that's what happened to me. > > > STuff ommitted... > > Dave Hyde, professional skeptic :) > davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil > Cold winter, hot summer. I have to store my Proseal at > work now since it says "Store below 80F'. > Another way to make dip tanks, or catch basins. I do this and it's pretty quick to do. I use 2x4's make a rectangular box. (Nail it together). Then I use thin masonite for a bottom. To make it liquidproof I staple, around the perimeter, blue plastic tarp, then trim the excess away with a knife or scissors. It's cheap, (good point) and easy. Also I can make a tank to the perfect size for whatever I want the tank for. Use 2x10's and I suppose you could make a cooling pond for Hot Builders!!! Doug Bloomberg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Jun 20, 1994
Subject: The View from Here...
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm getting tired of looking at planes other than an RV on my Windows "Wall Paper" and Screen Saver. Does anyone have RV related Screens out there? It would be nice to display RV's when I'm not working on the screen. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Jun 21, 1994
Subject: [Enclosed file: rvbmpres]
>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 12:09:01 PST >From: James M Wilson <ccm.co.intel.com!James_M_Wilson(at)matronics.com> >To: ims.com!bobn(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: The View from Here... >Text item: >See if this works. >Mike Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon Jun 20 17:54:24 1994 Subject: RV4.BMP Thanks for the RV4 BMP. It worked great! This was then first time I tried our local version of "UUDECODE" and there were no problems. It's easy on the EYES! Great shot of Van's RV4. *********************************************************************** >Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 16:28:18 -0800 >From: Richard Chandler <claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com> >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: Re: The View from Here... >One problem. What the heck is .bmp? Why not something standard and >cross- platform compatable like JPEG or GIF? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ".BMP" or "Bitmapped" is the format Windows uses for its "Wallpaper". It is also used by some screen savers to randomly paint pictures on an UNUSED screen. Thank to Mike Wilson, I now have the picture of Van's white RV4 with the red and yellow stripes to look at when ever I am not using my PC. When I get enough pictures, I believe "MicroSoft Screens" software will let me display them as screen savers. ************************************************************************* bobn(at)ims.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Re: [Enclosed file: rvbmpres]
bobn(at)ims.com sez: > >From: Richard Chandler <claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com> > >One problem. What the heck is .bmp? Why not something standard > >and cross- platform compatable like JPEG or GIF? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ".BMP" or "Bitmapped" is the format Windows uses for its "Wallpaper". > It is also used by some screen savers to randomly paint pictures on > an UNUSED screen. Which does me no good. :-( Here I sit with a Macintosh Quadra 800, 2 16" monitors with 24-bit color cards, and I can't look at the picture. -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jun 21, 1994
Subject: Re: RV-Bitmaps...
>-------------- > > There are a number of rv-bitmaps of various kinds still on matronics.com > via anonymous ftp in /pub/rv_stuff/bitmaps. Feel free to add to the > collection. > > Matt >------------- >------------ > Matt, > > Is it alright to put pictures directly in rv-stuff, or does it need > to go into incoming until reviewed? > > John Henderson > Auburn University >-------------- Yes, certainly put them right into rv_stuff/bitmaps. Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 21, 1994
From: Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com>
Subject: Re: [Enclosed file: rvbmpres]
Text item: Text_1 WOW!.... I've recently moved off the main frame and SUN workstation platforms and gone 100% PC. Since I changed jobs and that's there taste! Anyway, I don't have any display software outside of windows .BMP so it works for me! What I was surprised about was the fact that my email tool (cc:MAIL for Windows V2.0) automatically displayed the RV-4 picture when I clicked on the Icon included in the mail description/header!! I did not uudecode or do anything to the file. How did you send the .BMP file??? Chris. RV-6 #21390 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Sealing Fuel Lines
How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings? What is the netwisdom on this? Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 Federal Program Manager Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 FORE Systems 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: The light at the end of the tunnel
I flew out to Scappoose yesterday and stopped by Don Wentz's hangar, and guess what he had in there -- an AIRPLANE! A real, honest to goodness, RV-6 with wings, a tail, canopy, flaps, ailerons, motor, and everything! Don's on vacation (7 weeks - the bum), and is determined to fly it within a couple of weeks. Looks to me like he'll make it. It's all painted and put together, and it's BEAUTIFUL. He's done a very good job on it. His paint job is really nice, and though I've been able to see what good workmanship he does as his project has progressed, it's still a thrill to see how well the finished product is turning out. Don showed me what he described as his "experimental one piece cowl", and I almost bought it -- until I saw that he'd located one of the two full length fuselage paint stripes so the edge came out right on the cowl joint line, which effectively hides the joint completely. The cowl itself is superbly finished -- very smooth around the air scoop. The nicest touch is the forward canopy fairing. He had a friend do the work there, and the fairing is feathered out down to the aluminum so well that there's no discernable joint -- better than any I've seen so far. (I've gotta get that friend's name....) Don's currently wrapping up all the little details (attaching fairings, fittings, etc.) in preparation for weighing it. He conned me into picking up the scales at Van's and driving them out there for him at lunchtime today. Which I gladly agreed to, since it gives me a chance to stop by his garage which is just full of jigs and tools that he won't be needing for a while, if ever.... you get the idea. Don told me he might try to get a modem hooked up at home so he can get re-connected to the rv-list while on vacation, but as he told me, he's "kind of busy with other things right now", so until that happens I'll try to keep you all updated on his pending first flight. Last night I helped him apply the stainless steel tape to the flap leading edges. A tricky job to get it right, but it came out really well. So for anyone who might be so fortunate as to be approaching that point, here's the method Don came up with to apply the tape straight and without wrinkles: We installed the flaps on the wings, marked the wing skin line with the flaps up, then marked a straight line 1/16" forward from there the full length of the flap. Then we cut the tape to length, laid it out face down on a table, and used a utility knife to score ONLY the backing material the full length about 3/4" back from the edge. Pulled off the 3/4" of backing material, ran the flaps down, _carefully_ tacked down the center of the tape on the flap at the line, held the ends away from the flap and adjusted them so they'd come down on the line, and pressed the tape down to the flap from the center out towards the ends. After smoothing out and pressing it firmly on, we detached the flap control rod, dropped the flap down to where the leading edge popped out from under the wing skin, peeled off the rest of the backing material, and progressively pressed the tape down the full length, moving towards the leading edge about 1/4" at a time. Came out smooth as glass. A couple of things to watch out for here: First, the tape, being steel, is very susceptible to bending and stretching. Handle it carefully and cut it with sharp scissors or shears, otherwise you'll crease it and the creases will show. Also, wash hands before using, and be careful not to touch the exposed adhesive -- any fingerprints greatly reduce the stickyness of the adhesive. Sure is nice to see that it really is possible to finish this project -- I went home and immersed myself in my pitifully less complete RV. Sigh..... Randall Henderson randall(at)edt.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Sealing Fuel Lines
Date: Jun 23, 1994
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
> How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use > teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings? I've seen mechanics us "Fuel Lube." Any opinions? Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR (fuse languishing in an uncompleted state) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Sealing Fuel Lines
Date: Jun 23, 1994
> > > How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use > > teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings? > > I've seen mechanics us "Fuel Lube." Any opinions? > > Earl Brabandt RV-6 N66VR (fuse languishing in an uncompleted state) > Howdy Earl Sounds like you are getting close. Good deal... ________________________________________________________________________________ Vetterman's RV-4 has been flying since 85, he has fuel lubed All the fuel line fittings when built and still doesn't leak. Fuel lube is Excellent for coating the cork gaskets for the fuel tank inspection cover also. It doesn't harden and is not affected by gasoline either aviation or auto... God but expensive stuff, Get Randall to pay for part of it, yes you should let him use some too... Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1994
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
Subject: Re[2]: The View from Here...
Its the standard graphics format used in Windows, Windows is a product invented by a tiny American company called Microsoft :-). Its big out here in the colonies!! John ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: The View from Here... Date: 20/6/94 4:28 PM One problem. What the heck is .bmp? Why not something standard and cross- platform compatable like JPEG or GIF? -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 23, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: The View from Here...
> Its the standard graphics format used in Windows, Windows is > a product invented by a tiny American company called > Microsoft :-). Its big out here in the colonies!! Ah, Windows is a Hack. It's a skyscraper built on a wood foundation. GIF (Graphics Interchange Format) was created by CompuServe as a graphics standard independent of any computer type, so that users of anything from a Commodore 64 to an IBM, Apple, Amiga, Mac, Unix workstation, X-Windows machine, SparcStation, or whatever could display the same file. It's a 256 (or less) color table, run length encoded (compressed) bitmap with 24 bit color definitions. It's really good for computer generated pictures, which have large areas of the same color. It's not as good for scanned pictures. JPEG was created as another universal picture standard, designed to display scanned pictures of real images, and to provide for better compression. It supports 24bit pixels and has compression optimized for the fact that adjacent pixels will not have the same color. Which screws up computer generated pictures, by the way, and means they can get away with losing data if you crank the compression factor way up. Again, you can display it on any computer with the proper software, not just machines enslaved to Mr. Gates. I prefer my standards to be set by people who don't have a proprietary interest in their development. And you'll notice that jpeg and gif are the two formats used in the pictures groups in usenet news. ('sides, Randall already sent me a .jpeg version of the file) :-) Now then, I'm worried that these huge binaries are being filed in Matt's archive folder and bloating it. Matt, you can at least clear out my non-rv posts from that archive. And could you please fix those two bogus addresses on the list that keep bouncing mail back at me? -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Sealing Fuel Lines
How do you seal fue line connections? I read in Sport Aviation not to use teflon tape; do you need to use anything with AN fittings? What is the netwisdom on this? Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 Federal Program Manager Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 FORE Systems 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Fuel Lube
OK I give up - what is Fuel Lube and where do I get it? Auto Parts store? Richard Bibb -Ready to paint the interior so I can start permanently installing stuff!!! RV-4 N144KT Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 Federal Program Manager Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 FORE Systems 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Jun 24, 1994
Subject: .tif format
To Matt Dralle Thanks for the tip on matronics.com! If I get any other graphics files of RV's I'll send them along. The ".tif" files I ftp'd from roxanne don't seem to work however. I've tried to view them on a Paint program I have, Corel Draw, and a small shareware viewer. I also tried to convert them to PCX, but no luck. Corel Draw gave me a message that the .tif file wasn't at least "5.0". Are these in some strange version of tif? *************************************************************************** To all I have had great success at "Back riveting" my top wing skin on the right wing. The left wing will be done this weekend. I have developed my own technique that makes it almost foolproof and very easy. Every rivet is smooth and absolutely flush to the surface. It does require a special rivet set and bucking bar assembly, but they weren't too difficult to make. (some machining or elbow grease required) If anyone is interested, I'd be glad to share it on the mailing list. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Fuel Lube
Date: Jun 24, 1994
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
Richard Bibb inquires: > OK I give up - what is Fuel Lube and where do I get it? Auto Parts store? I don't know about auto parts stores but I think I saw it in the Aircraft Spruce and Specialty catalog. Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: doug(at)ksr.com (Doug Bloomberg)
Subject: Re: Fuel Lube
Date: Jun 24, 1994
Howdy, Fuel Lube, where else if Van and Avery don't have it. All together now, "Aircraft Spruce!" look in the index, it's shown there. It's expensive. ~$17 for a can that will last Boeing a year, not to mention all the RV builders in your area. Doug Bloomberg > > OK I give up - what is Fuel Lube and where do I get it? Auto Parts store? > > Richard Bibb > -Ready to paint the interior so I can start permanently installing stuff!!! > > RV-4 N144KT > > Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 > Federal Program Manager > Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 > FORE Systems > 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com > Bethesda, MD 20817 > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: The View from Here...
>> Its the standard graphics format used in Windows, Windows is >> a product invented by a tiny American company called >> Microsoft :-). Its big out here in the colonies!! > >Ah, Windows is a Hack. It's a skyscraper built on a wood foundation. [etc. etc. long dissertation on graphics formats deleted] A request: keep the religious OS discussions off the RV-list.... please? Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 24, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Lube
> From ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com Fri Jun 24 10:18:06 1994 > Subject: Re: Fuel Lube > To: fore.com!rbibb(at)matronics.com (Richard Bibb) > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 09:12:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Earl Brabandt" <ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com> > I don't know about auto parts stores but I think I saw it in the > Aircraft Spruce and Specialty catalog. > > Earl Ok I found it pg. 210. The catalog sez: "Fuelube - Lubricant for fiel and oil line valves, especially for aromatic and high-octane fuels. Also suitable as gasket paste. Good as anti-seize for threads. Will not gum or dry out". 1 lb can #09-2530 $17.85 Also available is "Sealube - Anti-seize sealer for threaded aluminum alloy parts exposed to gasoline, oil, water, air or vacum. Good lubricating qualities. Will not harden or set. Will not freeze joints at low temperatures. Non-corrosive, insoluble in gasoline, oil or water." 1 lb can #09-25200 $13.65 The number at Aircraft Spruce is 800-824-1930 Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jun 24, 1994
Subject: Re: .tif format
>-------------- > To Matt Dralle > > Thanks for the tip on matronics.com! If I get any other graphics files > of RV's I'll send them along. > > The ".tif" files I ftp'd from roxanne don't seem to work however. I've > tried to view them on a Paint program I have, Corel Draw, and a small > shareware viewer. I also tried to convert them to PCX, but no luck. > Corel Draw gave me a message that the .tif file wasn't at least "5.0". Are > these in some strange version of tif? > > ... > >-------------- It sounds like you didn't use the "Binary" type transfer under FTP. Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 27, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Too Close to the Edge...
I guess I have kind of gone over this subject before, but the first time I just ordered new parts. This time I just want to fix the problem according to "acceptable practice" So what does everyone else do when they inadvertantly drill a hole less than 2D from the edge of a part? Adding an extra rivet or two to make up for the lost strength is not a problem, but should I leave the bad hole unfilled? I recall someone saying here that if the distance is less than 2D the edge will eventually fatigue and split if it is riveted. This would indicate that a bad hole is best left unfilled, but who wants an ugly extra hole in their skin? Perhaps a rivet which is only partially bucked, just to fill the hole, would be ok, or perhaps a glued-in rivet? The part in question is the flange on my HS603s where the skin rivets on. I tried to get the rivet holes away from the HS409 flanges, in order that I could get a squeezer on them, but inevitably a couple of holes are not within the 2D limit. Note that the tone of this letter is much calmer than the last one I posted on this subject. I have graduted from "Oh my goodness - I've misdrilled a hole - I'd better order new everything!" to "Hmm... what's the best way to fix this?" (I am NOT about to build a new HS at this point!) My current plan is to drill a couple of extra rivets on either side of the bad one and then lightly buck a rivet into the bad hole just to fill it up while not putting too much stress on the weak edge of the metal. It's funny, but none of my aircraft sheet metal books say what to do IF you drill a hole too close - they just say don't drill it too close. I suppose this must mean that the only acceptable practice is to replace an entire Boeing 747 wing skin when the assembly line worker misdrills a hole - yeah right. Curt Reimer creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister)
Subject: rivet folly
Date: Jun 27, 1994
Curt Reimer reminded me of my own work. I am realizing that perfection in RV construction is similar to my ability to get "organized". I keep trying but like the proverbial butterfly it is elusive. I guess this is where those years of experience in metal construction that most of us don't have comes into play. No matter how far I look ahead I still seem to have the ability to not think about everything that should have been considered. What do you do if a rivet comes out on a rib flange crease? Answer (I use): Keep going and make the best of it....it probably will not be the worst mistake I make on this project. Just try to keep the little mistakes from adding up to big mistakes. - Randy -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : | : Randy S. McCallister : : _________________|_________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : \ | | / : : : `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 : : /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 : :RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
Date: Jun 27, 1994
Subject: (Im)Perfection
I have also come to the conclusion that I cannot build a perfect airplane. Nevertheless, I am comfortable in having learned that I can build a nice airplane that will be structurally sound, fly well and look nice. Those who build the show stoppers either have a lot of experience or go a loooong way to cover up all their mistakes. Once I accepted the concept of imperfection I started to relax a whole lot more. What's the fun if you are constantly sweating doing each job? Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Too Close to the Edge...
Curt Reimer sez: > > I guess I have kind of gone over this subject before, but the first time I > just ordered new parts. This time I just want to fix the problem according > to "acceptable practice" Can't speak to "acceptable practice", I'm still looking for that book. > So what does everyone else do when they inadvertantly drill a hole less > than 2D from the edge of a part? Adding an extra rivet or two to make up > for the lost strength is not a problem, but should I leave the bad hole > unfilled? I recall someone saying here that if the distance is less than > 2D the edge will eventually fatigue and split if it is riveted. This would > indicate that a bad hole is best left unfilled, but who wants an ugly > extra hole in their skin? Perhaps a rivet which is only partially bucked, > just to fill the hole, would be ok, or perhaps a glued-in rivet? Use a pop-rivet. They fill the hole without producing as much stress on the surrounding metal as solid rivets. If it were me and there was just one or two rivets I'd forget any extra rivets, or just put one extra on one side or the other. Also note there are standards for _minimum_ distance between rivets -- 3/8" I think for 3/32" rivets, so watch that when adding extras. > > The part in question is the flange on my HS603s where the skin rivets on. > I tried to get the rivet holes away from the HS409 flanges, in order that > I could get a squeezer on them, but inevitably a couple of holes are not > within the 2D limit. Don't feel bad, seems like I'm always talking to someone who did that. On the rivets that were adjacent to the strips I drilled close to the strips machine-countersunk those rivets instead of dimpling and only had to build one HS :-) -- I think that should be in the plans since so many people drill either too close (or IN to) the strips or to the edge -- there just isn't enough room there. Randall RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Too Close to the Edge...
Hi RV riveters, I looked up the the minimum edge distances for rivets, and found that it is NOT 2D in some circumstances, in particular for the smaller size rivets we use. For countersunk flush rivets, the edge distance is 'slightly over' 2D on the VISIBLE skin side, and 'slightly under' on the NONE VISIBLE side. Dimpled holes have the 'slightly over' number for both sides, and protruding head rivets use the 'slightly under' number for both sides. The numbers are ---- (All measurements are referenced to the rivet center) EDGE DISTANCE Rivet Slightly Slightly 2 D size smaller larger reference 3/32 0.156 0.219 0.188 1/8 0.219 0.281 0.250 3/16 0.344 0.375 0.375 RIVET SPACING MINIMUMS Rivet Dimpled Machine Universal size countersunk countersunk head 3/32 0.563 0.438 0.375 1/8 0.625 0.531 0.500 3/16 0.750 0.750 0.688 I believe the differences for the types of countersinking are probably concerned with edge effects of the machining/dimpling operations. IN CONCLUSION ..... if you machine countersink the rivets on the HS spar, you are allowed a smaller edge margin on the spar flange (only 5/32 inch instead of 3/16 inch). This may be a good reason to machine countersink instead of dimpling in tight, tricky spots. When I built my HS spar, I think I lucked out and had a spar with slightly oversize flanges. DON'T REWORK UNTIL YOU CHECK THE ABOVE DIMENSIONS!! happy pounding ..... Gil Alexander RV6A, #20701 - fuselage bulkheads >Curt Reimer sez: >> >> I guess I have kind of gone over this subject before, but the first time I >> just ordered new parts. This time I just want to fix the problem according >> to "acceptable practice" > >Can't speak to "acceptable practice", I'm still looking for that book. > >> So what does everyone else do when they inadvertantly drill a hole less >> than 2D from the edge of a part? Adding an extra rivet or two to make up >> for the lost strength is not a problem, but should I leave the bad hole >> unfilled? I recall someone saying here that if the distance is less than >> 2D the edge will eventually fatigue and split if it is riveted. This would >> indicate that a bad hole is best left unfilled, but who wants an ugly >> extra hole in their skin? Perhaps a rivet which is only partially bucked, >> just to fill the hole, would be ok, or perhaps a glued-in rivet? > >Use a pop-rivet. They fill the hole without producing as much stress on >the surrounding metal as solid rivets. If it were me and there was just one >or two rivets I'd forget any extra rivets, or just put one extra on one side >or the other. Also note there are standards for _minimum_ distance between >rivets -- 3/8" I think for 3/32" rivets, so watch that when adding extras. > >> >> The part in question is the flange on my HS603s where the skin rivets on. >> I tried to get the rivet holes away from the HS409 flanges, in order that >> I could get a squeezer on them, but inevitably a couple of holes are not >> within the 2D limit. > >Don't feel bad, seems like I'm always talking to someone who did that. >On the rivets that were adjacent to the strips I drilled close to the strips >machine-countersunk those rivets instead of dimpling and only had to build >one HS :-) -- I think that should be in the plans since so many people drill >either too close (or IN to) the strips or to the edge -- there just isn't >enough room there. > >Randall >RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)ch2m1.attmail.com
Date: Jun 28, 1994
Subject: Nose vs. Tail, again!
Pardon the ignorance and inexperience, but... I just did my first landings and takeoffs in a C172 on grass. Man is it a pain to keep the nosewheel up! The Van's video mentions that the -6A mains were placed very close to the CG to make grass field operations easier by reducing the weight on the nose and allowing earlier rotation, etc. Does it work? Or is the -6A still a lot more work than the -4/6 to taxi and take off of grass? Steve Kimura RV-wanna-be CH2M Hill Corvallis OR skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1994
From: "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.wv.tek.com>
Subject: Re: The light at the end of
Reply to: RE>The light at the end of the Gang.... Doug here... Just got off the phone with Donski.... We passed the FAA boyz and girls! we are chompin at the bit to fly now... will fill ya in on that after we get wheels up! -------------------------------------- Date: 6/23/94 11:12 AM From: Randall Henderson I flew out to Scappoose yesterday and stopped by Don Wentz's hangar, and guess what he had in there -- an AIRPLANE! A real, honest to goodness, RV-6 with wings, a tail, canopy, flaps, ailerons, motor, and everything! Don's on vacation (7 weeks - the bum), and is determined to fly it within a couple of weeks. Looks to me like he'll make it. It's all painted and put together, and it's BEAUTIFUL. He's done a very good job on it. His paint job is really nice, and though I've been able to see what good workmanship he does as his project has progressed, it's still a thrill to see how well the finished product is turning out. Don showed me what he described as his "experimental one piece cowl", and I almost bought it -- until I saw that he'd located one of the two full length fuselage paint stripes so the edge came out right on the cowl joint line, which effectively hides the joint completely. The cowl itself is superbly finished -- very smooth around the air scoop. The nicest touch is the forward canopy fairing. He had a friend do the work there, and the fairing is feathered out down to the aluminum so well that there's no discernable joint -- better than any I've seen so far. (I've gotta get that friend's name....) Don's currently wrapping up all the little details (attaching fairings, fittings, etc.) in preparation for weighing it. He conned me into picking up the scales at Van's and driving them out there for him at lunchtime today. Which I gladly agreed to, since it gives me a chance to stop by his garage which is just full of jigs and tools that he won't be needing for a while, if ever.... you get the idea. Don told me he might try to get a modem hooked up at home so he can get re-connected to the rv-list while on vacation, but as he told me, he's "kind of busy with other things right now", so until that happens I'll try to keep you all updated on his pending first flight. Last night I helped him apply the stainless steel tape to the flap leading edges. A tricky job to get it right, but it came out really well. So for anyone who might be so fortunate as to be approaching that point, here's the method Don came up with to apply the tape straight and without wrinkles: We installed the flaps on the wings, marked the wing skin line with the flaps up, then marked a straight line 1/16" forward from there the full length of the flap. Then we cut the tape to length, laid it out face down on a table, and used a utility knife to score ONLY the backing material the full length about 3/4" back from the edge. Pulled off the 3/4" of backing material, ran the flaps down, _carefully_ tacked down the center of the tape on the flap at the line, held the ends away from the flap and adjusted them so they'd come down on the line, and pressed the tape down to the flap from the center out towards the ends. After smoothing out and pressing it firmly on, we detached the flap control rod, dropped the flap down to where the leading edge popped out from under the wing skin, peeled off the rest of the backing material, and progressively pressed the tape down the full length, moving towards the leading edge about 1/4" at a time. Came out smooth as glass. A couple of things to watch out for here: First, the tape, being steel, is very susceptible to bending and stretching. Handle it carefully and cut it with sharp scissors or shears, otherwise you'll crease it and the creases will show. Also, wash hands before using, and be careful not to touch the exposed adhesive -- any fingerprints greatly reduce the stickyness of the adhesive. Sure is nice to see that it really is possible to finish this project -- I went home and immersed myself in my pitifully less complete RV. Sigh..... Randall Henderson randall(at)edt.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1994
From: Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvdz.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Nose vs. Tail, again!
> Pardon the ignorance and inexperience, but... > > I just did my first landings and takeoffs in a C172 on grass. Man > is it a pain to keep the nosewheel up! > > The Van's video mentions that the -6A mains were placed very > close to the CG to make grass field operations easier by reducing > the weight on the nose and allowing earlier rotation, etc. > > Does it work? Or is the -6A still a lot more work than the -4/6 to taxi > and take off of grass? > > Steve Kimura Steve: I haven't yet flown an RV, but I do have some 172 time. And since I never leave home without an opinion... It seems to me that an RV would be lighter in pitch for two additional reasons. 1) The 172 is a pitch heavy aircraft. 2) The 172 is taller, the engine is mounted higher above the ground and will impart a larger pitch-down force at high power settings due to the longer lever arm. The extra drag of the grass makes this more noticable. The height of the grass and firmness of the ground make a *lot* of difference. Where didja go? -- Randy Stockberger randys(at)cv.hp.com Corvallis, OR 503-715-3589 -- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 28, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Too Close to the Edge...
RV riveters, As a follow up for further clarification, the specification picture was for an overlap as shown below: VISIBLE SIDE | A | _____ ====================\ /===== +++++| |++++++++++++++++++++++++ | B | In this case, for a machine countersink, A is the 'slightly over' dimension, and B is the slightly under dimension. As is standard practise, and unless specifically stated by the designer, the flush head is on the visible surface. For the HS spar, this would be: VISIBLE SIDE | A | _____ ====================\ /============ +++++| |+++++ + + | B | + + ==== represents the 0.032 skin ++++ represents the HS spar NOTE: the B dimension is allowed to be smaller than 2D because it is NOT countersunk. If both are dimpled, then the 'slightly over' dimension applies as in the original message. Dimension A is not an edge distance concern in this HS spar application. ...... my first attempt at ASCII drafting!!! ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 >On 28 Jun 1994, Gil Alexander wrote: > >> For countersunk flush rivets, the edge distance is 'slightly over' >> 2D on the VISIBLE skin side, and 'slightly under' on the NONE VISIBLE side. >> Dimpled holes have the 'slightly over' number for both sides, and >> protruding head rivets use the 'slightly under' number for both sides. > >I don't quite understand this. If the hole is drilled straight and the >edge of the metal is sheared straight, won't the distance from the center >of the hole to the edge be the same for both the visible (flush) side and >the non-visible (shop head) side? Or am I misinterpreting this? > >Assuming I am still too close, I will just lightly buck it and add a >couple of extra rivets 1/2 " on either side. If the bad hole ever cracks, >it will be in an inspectable place and will essentially already be stop >drilled anyway. > >Thanks for the info guys. > >Curt Reimer >RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 29, 1994
Subject: Visit to NW US
Hey, rv-listers! Just came back into Auburn (AL) last night, returning from my trip to the Northwest. I got to visit the Van's plant, and "help" Don assemble his -6 on Friday and Saturday. I'm sorry that I couldn't get back in time to post his progress before FAA inspection, but glad that he passed! Will compose a slightly more detailed message of my adventures later. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Update - N790DW
We interrupt this mindless babble for an important announcement: *** Don Wentz is doing taxi tests as of this very moment!!! *** We now return to our regularly scheduled programming. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 29, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Heretical idea
I just had a completely heretical idea. After hearing about everybody's difficulties in building and sealing fuel tanks, and reading about how other planes do it, has anyone considered making fuel tanks (or any other components, like the tail) out of composites? Hey, stay back with those pitchforks! -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1994
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Heretical idea
I think that there is a 12 step program for your problem. For more info, call (503)647-5117. Ask for "Van" Chris ----- Begin Included Message ----- I just had a completely heretical idea. After hearing about everybody's difficulties in building and sealing fuel tanks, and reading about how other planes do it, has anyone considered making fuel tanks (or any other components, like the tail) out of composites? ----- End Included Message ----- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jun 30, 1994
Subject: Re: Heretical idea
> > I just had a completely heretical idea. > > After hearing about everybody's difficulties in building and sealing fuel > tanks, and reading about how other planes do it, has anyone considered making > fuel tanks (or any other components, like the tail) out of composites? Heretical? I should say! Maybe if Van can't help, perhaps the Betty Ford clinic can help him out. (Of course, Richard, you realize that we are just kidding with you.) I think perhaps the key word here is "weight." Anyone ever notice that the smaller Glasair has an empty weight comparable to the gross weight of an RV-6? The fuel tanks might not be such a bad idea -- they're located near CG. I don't know what a composite tail would do to CG, though. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jun 30, 1994
Subject: Re: Nose vs. Tail, again!
>-------------- > > Pardon the ignorance and inexperience, but... > > I just did my first landings and takeoffs in a C172 on grass. Man > is it a pain to keep the nosewheel up! > > The Van's video mentions that the -6A mains were placed very > close to the CG to make grass field operations easier by reducing > the weight on the nose and allowing earlier rotation, etc. > > Does it work? Or is the -6A still a lot more work than the -4/6 to taxi > and take off of grass? > > Steve Kimura > RV-wanna-be > CH2M Hill > Corvallis OR > skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com > >-------------- Well, I think you anwsered your own question - fly with a tailwheel airplane! :-) :-) Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: RV Useful Load (was:Heretical Idea)
The Glasair empty is as heavy as a loaded RV? Wow. So does a fixed trigear Glasair with the same engine/prop really cruise faster than an RV-6A in spite of hundreds of extra pounds? On the subject of weight, I am trying to determine if it would be reasonable to get my CofA with a higher than 1600 lb all up weight for my RV-6. If the RV-6 is stressed for +/- 6 Gs at aerobatic weight, my calculations show that it ought to still surpass the Utility G-limits at max gross and could easily gross more than the recommended 1600 lbs if you stuck to the Normal category G-limits. The fact that Van recently increased the gross weight to 1800 lbs for the RV-6 float modification would seem to confirm this. Now being in Canada, I am ultimately insterested in the Canadian regs, naturally. But what is the story in the U.S.? These are known as experimental aircraft, after all, so are we allowed to experiment with the all up weight? I suspect that C of G might be the limiting factor, but it would be nice to have a few extra pounds of payload, perhaps in an external baggage pod? (I'm trying to think of a way to carry my skis & poles with me) Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jun 30, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Re: Heretical idea
Chris Ruble sez: > I think that there is a 12 step program for your problem. For > more info, call (503)647-5117. Ask for "Van" Heh, I'm already working on the first step, saving up to buy a garage to build it in. Heck, I had half the price of the whole -6 airframe saved up until April 15th came around. Now I'm starting from scratch. I was just working on the mistaken premise that a structure like the fuel tank could be built quickly and easily out of composites, and NO Pro-Seal. Someone had posted something on r.a.homebuilt about fuel-proof epoxy. How about gluing the aluminum together? (Just the internal ribs in the tank). Is there a way of doing that that would support the loads? Oh, I never reported on what I found at the Boeing Surplus Store. It's a very strange place, because there are obviously some items you have to be there when the door opens to catch (I saw someone walking out with a Macintosh SE, but the table where the computers were was empty by 10:00) and there are other things that will be there when the sun burns out, like a HUGE pile of broken HP Pen Plotters. There is a LOT of raw material that has been stored outside. Bring a micrometer to measure the thicknesses of sheets, because it didn't seem to be marked. I found a pile of solid aluminum blocks about the size of cinderblocks. It gives you a real impression of how light a material Aluminum is when you're used to iron stage counterweights. There was an electric motor the size of a V-8 engine block, huge industrial process machines of no discernable function with $15,000 price tags written on the side with marker. There was a safe that would make a wonderful gun vault, except I couldn't close the door. Hundreds of office chairs and computer desks. Spools of wire. 1" diamter plastic tubing. Indecipherable bits, strange crimping tools. There was a seperate section with drill bits and cutting tools, many of them still coated with a plastic compound to protect the sharp edges. If you ever need a bit that will cut a 1.5542334" hole in hardened steel, you can find one, but have fun fitting it into your chuck. There were plenty of more normal bits as well. There were some STRANGE air tools that looked like props from Star Wars. Some were marked as Nut Plate drills. There were a few rivet guns, but they had a different air fitting from everything else, so they didn't fit the hose that they provide. If I give the impression that there's a lot of unusual junk that most people would never need, it's true. But it's fascinating to paw around through it. There is a lot of normal stuff too, office supplies, bolts of fabric, industrial thread spools. But you can't reliably find things there like you would at a hardware store. Don wanted me to find some washers, but I couldn't see them anywhere. This is one of those places you have to go to a lot to catch as catch can. -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Jul 01, 1994
Subject: Glasair weight vs. RV-6
I must confess that I was in error when I compared the empty weight of a glasair (1650#) to the gross weight of an RV-6. The glasair that I was recalling was a III, with 6-cylinder engine and retractable gear. The weight of a more comparable Super II TD is ONLY 1300# empty. John H. Henderson Department of Electrical Engineering Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com
Date: Jul 01, 1994
Subject: Two questions
Hi everybody, First question: I am on the home stretch on my main wing spar and bulkhead assembly. I am planning to metalprep/alodine/prime all the spar parts. Only reading the directions for my primer it says NOT to prime over alodined parts! The primer is Sherwin-Williams product that is referenced in the plans. From the recent notes apparently the people at DuPont say that using Veriprime over the alodined parts provides better corrosion protection. The way I see it I have three choices: 1) just use the primer, 2) use the metalprep, alodine and primer in spite of the instructions, and 3) get some DuPont Veriprime and use all three. Any thoughts? Second question: There are a lot of parts to the spar with all the vertical stiffners, etc. Before I prime them each part is cleaned and this removes all the marking. With all the parts it would be nice to have each one marked so I know where it will go. Is it ok to mark the parts after cleaning and just before priming? Will the permanent marker cause corrosion to start at that point? I have heard that pencil marks on metal can cause corrosion. This is one of those silly issues that I have been worrying about ever since I started the project. Thanks. Cheryl Sanchez ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 01, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Update: N790DW
Ok all you weenies who aren't even close to flying their RVs yet (including me) -- DON WENTZ FLEW HIS AIRPLANE! Mike Seager made the first flight with Ken Scott flying chase. Alas, I wasn't there to witness, (I was over at HIO waiting for a mechanic to start the annual inspection on our Citabria), but I was listening on the radio, and got to experience it vicariously. After the first flight Don went up with Mike in the right seat for about 15 mins or so, but then had to bring it back because they discovered some problems that put it on the ground till they get fixed (large crack at a weak point in the lower cowl, too rich idle mixture, oil light permanently on). Don says he expects it to be back in the air, and hopefully he'll solo it, tomorrow. Randall Henderson RV-6 (far from being done) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Jul 01, 1994
Subject: RV Useful Load (was:Heretical Idea)
Heeheehee...Curt brings up an interesting point about useful load. > The Glasair empty is as heavy as a loaded RV? Wow. So does a fixed >trigear Glasair with the same engine/prop really cruise faster than an >RV-6A in spite of hundreds of extra pounds? Good question, I don't know, but I'd bet that a well built Glasair has less drag to offset the higher gross weight. I'm not sure, but they look pretty slick to me. >On the subject of weight, I am trying to determine if it would be >reasonable to get my CofA with a higher than 1600 lb all up weight for my >RV-6. If the RV-6 is stressed for +/- 6 Gs at aerobatic weight, my >calculations show that it ought to still surpass the Utility G-limits at >max gross and could easily gross more than the recommended 1600 lbs if you >stuck to the Normal category G-limits. The fact that Van recently >increased the gross weight to 1800 lbs for the RV-6 float modification >would seem to confirm this. I asked Van what drove him to the gross weight limits he specifies, since they're different for the -4 and -6 with little change in load bearing structure. He kind of smiled and said it was sort of arbitrary, based on how much the prototypes weighed and what you could stuff in them (volume, not weight). He gave me the impression that these weights weren't absolute limits (or 80% of ultimate under gust loads, or whatever), but that they were the highest weights they tested. He said that there were other RV's operating at (somewhat) higher max gross weights, but didn't get into specifics. I don't think he was advocating doing it, only saying that it had been done successfully, and that there might be some logic behind it. So why an I willing to take his word here when I recommended against it over the tail rib omission thing? Well, I'm not (but will be looking into it further), I'm just presenting what he and I talked about. I think, however, that it's easier to relate a gross weight increase to previous data for a strength/load distribution comparison than it is to relate data with structural mods. At any rate I'll probably stick with 1500 lb as my max gross unless the $100 hamburgers become too frequent. >I suspect that C of G might be the limiting factor, but it would be nice >to have a few extra pounds of payload, perhaps in an external baggage pod? >(I'm trying to think of a way to carry my skis & poles with me) DROP TANKS! (next, an in-flight refueling probe, then the tailhook!) Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 03, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: The light at the end of the tunnel
Thanks for all the nice comments Randall. This posting was on 6/23. As of 6/30, it FLIES!!!!!!!! I had local RV pilot Mike Seager do the honors (he will be flying one of Van's demonstrators back to Osh again this year), while I rode along in formation in Van's RV-6A (Ken Scott driving). To see my creation take-off and fly, then grease-on for a near perfect landing was truly fulfilling! No, I didn't do the 1st flight, and I'm glad. It was too emotional and exciting and I enjoyed it much more watching it up close. Today, 7/2, I soloed-it finally after some repairs. It was grounded after 1st flight by what else, fiberglass failures! Today went well and after another cowl-off inspection I went-up for some loose formation with an RV-4 to check airspeed readings and, well, just fly it! Tomorrow morning (after what will certainly be a limited sleep night), I will be opening the hangar to MY RV that is ready to roll-out, pre-flight, and take-off in, still a difficult concept to get used-to. Some quick numbers off the top of my head: empty weight - 1048 lbs. (no fuel, full interior, etc.) CG - 70.6" aft of datum stall clean - 62mph full flaps - 58mph (both stalls power-off, 3/4 fuel, 410 lbs. of pilots) The last few weeks have been a total blur, trying to get it ready, but we made it from paint shop (my garage) to flying in 10 days. Thanks to a lot of drop-in help from the likes of Mike Wilson, John Henderson (all the way from Alabama), Doug Minor, Randall, and more. Mike stops-in almost every day to check-up on me and I usually get him to help do something. I felt bad today when I had to jump-in alone and leave him there while we took off, but I still have 35 hours to go. I want to just go around to all the local airports and show it off, but I need to knuckle-down to some sort of test program. Main goal is to try and fly-off the hours next week and fly up to the EAA West Coast Fly-in at Arlington WA. We'll see. Still lots of cosmetic and interior stuff to do, but those will come, main thing is to keep it flying! As for the fuel lube, my friendly local A/P gave me a thimble-full of it, which was 10 times more than what I needed. It works well tho, 0 fuel leaks (we also used it on oil lines). Don Wentz ----------------------------- I flew out to Scappoose yesterday and stopped by Don Wentz's hangar, and guess what he had in there -- an AIRPLANE! A real, honest to goodness, RV-6 with wings, a tail, canopy, flaps, ailerons, motor, and everything! Don's on vacation (7 weeks - the bum), and is determined to fly it within a couple of weeks. Looks to me like he'll make it. It's all painted and put together, and it's BEAUTIFUL. He's done a very good job on it. His paint job is really nice, and though I've been able to see what good workmanship he does as his project has progressed, it's still a thrill to see how well the finished product is turning out. Don showed me what he described as his "experimental one piece cowl", and I almost bought it -- until I saw that he'd located one of the two full length fuselage paint stripes so the edge came out right on the cowl joint line, which effectively hides the joint completely. The cowl itself is superbly finished -- very smooth around the air scoop. The nicest touch is the forward canopy fairing. He had a friend do the work there, and the fairing is feathered out down to the aluminum so well that there's no discernable joint -- better than any I've seen so far. (I've gotta get that friend's name....) Don's currently wrapping up all the little details (attaching fairings, fittings, etc.) in preparation for weighing it. He conned me into picking up the scales at Van's and driving them out there for him at lunchtime today. Which I gladly agreed to, since it gives me a chance to stop by his garage which is just full of jigs and tools that he won't be needing for a while, if ever.... you get the idea. Don told me he might try to get a modem hooked up at home so he can get re-connected to the rv-list while on vacation, but as he told me, he's "kind of busy with other things right now", so until that happens I'll try to keep you all updated on his pending first flight. Last night I helped him apply the stainless steel tape to the flap leading edges. A tricky job to get it right, but it came out really well. So for anyone who might be so fortunate as to be approaching that point, here's the method Don came up with to apply the tape straight and without wrinkles: We installed the flaps on the wings, marked the wing skin line with the flaps up, then marked a straight line 1/16" forward from there the full length of the flap. Then we cut the tape to length, laid it out face down on a table, and used a utility knife to score ONLY the backing material the full length about 3/4" back from the edge. Pulled off the 3/4" of backing material, ran the flaps down, _carefully_ tacked down the center of the tape on the flap at the line, held the ends away from the flap and adjusted them so they'd come down on the line, and pressed the tape down to the flap from the center out towards the ends. After smoothing out and pressing it firmly on, we detached the flap control rod, dropped the flap down to where the leading edge popped out from under the wing skin, peeled off the rest of the backing material, and progressively pressed the tape down the full length, moving towards the leading edge about 1/4" at a time. Came out smooth as glass. A couple of things to watch out for here: First, the tape, being steel, is very susceptible to bending and stretching. Handle it carefully and cut it with sharp scissors or shears, otherwise you'll crease it and the creases will show. Also, wash hands before using, and be careful not to touch the exposed adhesive -- any fingerprints greatly reduce the stickyness of the adhesive. Sure is nice to see that it really is possible to finish this project -- I went home and immersed myself in my pitifully less complete RV. Sigh..... Randall Henderson randall(at)edt.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 08, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Painting
Has anyone used the new cheaper HVLP spray setups (such as Campbell Hausfield) for painting RVs? What experiences has anyone had with HVLP in general? Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 Federal Program Manager Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 FORE Systems 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Demo Rides at OSH?
I will be making my first pilgrimage to OSHKOSH this year and I suppose that Van's will have a booth and an airplane or two there. Can a person get a demonstration ride or are they generally too busy/no flying allowed/airshows in progress, etc? Rudder in progress. I noticed in the Empannage Construction Video that their rudder stiffeners stopped about 3/4" short of the trailing edge, whereas the plans call for the stiffeners to extend to within 3/16" of the trailing edge. I have trimmed mine back to about 1/4" from the edge, in order to have a little extra room when I go to make the final bend. ANyone have any thoughts on this? Curt Reimer creimer(at)mbnet.mb.ca RV 6 #23490 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 11, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Demo Rides at OSH?
Curt Reimer sez: > I will be making my first pilgrimage to OSHKOSH this year and I suppose > that Van's will have a booth and an airplane or two there. Can a person get > a demonstration ride or are they generally too busy/no flying > allowed/airshows in progress, etc? Van's does give demo rides to pilots at OSH. Van, Bill, Tom and Lisa will be there as well as others. They'll have at least two airplanes (be prepared for a surprise or two there). There'll be a sign-up sheet, first come first served, so sign up early! > Rudder in progress. I noticed in the Empannage Construction Video that > their rudder stiffeners stopped about 3/4" short of the trailing edge, > whereas the plans call for the stiffeners to extend to within 3/16" of the > trailing edge. I have trimmed mine back to about 1/4" from the edge, in > order to have a little extra room when I go to make the final bend. ANyone > have any thoughts on this? I believe the original plans called for a small (3/16" or so) space there but they were finding the tight bend against the stiffener with a rivet close to the trailing edge hole caused too much stress and resulted in cracking, so they pulled it back to 3/4" or so. Then some builder came up with the idea of moving the end rivet back and using RTV in place of an end rivet, which bonds it while while minimizing the stress, so they went back to the original length. I don't know why the Orndorfs did it the way they did, everyone has their own mods for whatever reason, but my feeling is that Van must think it's preferable to have the stiffener extend as close as possible to the trailing edge, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the RTV business. Try to use something other than acetic acid based RTV though, there's some concern about corrosiveness. I have more info on that but it's been hashed over on the RV-list before, let me know if you missed it. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: OSHKOSH
Date: Jul 11, 1994
Howdy, Anyone going to OSHKOSH this year? How about setting up a meeting time and place? I would be fun to put a face to a name. Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ps... Kendall Square Research has decided to down size. I was caught in their little thing. So now I have the summer to build while looking for meaningful work. my new email address is dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jul 11, 1994
Subject: The rv-list(at)matronics.com is Fixed!
As a couple of you pointed out(!), the rv-list has been bit sick lately. As usual, I changed a few things a couple of weeks back to make everything work "better" and well, the rest is history! I have corrected the mis-configurations, and the list should be working as normal again. Let's get those discussions going again! There's been some really interesting stuff on the list lately. Keep up the good work! Matt Dralle RV-4 Builder ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jul 11, 1994
Subject: Newest Member's Bio...
--- Forwarded mail from Rion Bourgeois <71311.2116(at)CompuServe.COM> From: Rion Bourgeois <71311.2116(at)CompuServe.COM> Subject: bio Thanx for the welcome. Sorry I'm so late getting back to you, but I'm a neophyte Internetter, and am having trouble uploading complete files drafted on Wordperfect 6 then uploaded through Crosstalk, or drafted on Crosstalk and uploaded to Compuserve. Only about a screen's worth gets transmitted. Status of RV-4 project: empennage done, wngs 50% done. Assembled my own spar, plan fishing rod carriers in wings, and turtledeck fuselage (one such flying in this area [HIO/ PDX], and another almost done. Heard about RV-List froDon Wentz and Randall Henderson. The former is editor of Portland RVator newsletter, whose RV-6 is today ready to fly, and latter is a partner in my 1965 Champion 7ECA and building an RV-6 Have been lurking on AVSIG on Compuserve, but not much tecnical talk there: mostly chit-chat and motivati Don printed an article in our newsletter from RV-List about compatibility of Van's fuel guage sender units with dual guage from another supplier, which if very timely for me since I am about to start my tanks. Thanx for the service. Tion Bourgeois --- End of forwarded message from Rion Bourgeois <71311.2116(at)CompuServe.COM> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 12, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Reply to One Question: Two questions
>Cheryl Sanchez asks:- *** stuff deleted *** > Second question: There are a lot of parts to the spar with >all the vertical stiffners, etc. Before I prime them each part is >cleaned and this removes all the marking. With all the parts it >would be nice to have each one marked so I know where it will go. >Is it ok to mark the parts after cleaning and just before priming? >Will the permanent marker cause corrosion to start at that point? >I have heard that pencil marks on metal can cause corrosion. This >is one of those silly issues that I have been worrying about ever >since I started the project. Cheryl, I had the same questions when I did my spar. I followed the pictures in Bingelis' early articles and hung all the parts from wires to prime them. Of course this did not help with identical looking parts, so I started attaching paper labels to the wires ..... what a pain!! I then looked closer at the construction photos in the RV6 manual, and found that all of the parts shown had been stamped with ID numbers. I bought a set of 1/8 inch letter and number stamps (about $30 at the local hardware store), and have been using them ever since. I write my numbering system on my plans, and then stamp all of the parts as I select them for their correct placement ... as an example, all of the main wing ribs are marked L1 to L14 and R1 to R14 as ID numbers. Once they are marked, priming is a non-event in the ID of parts, and no long term corrosion worries. I use my Avery back riveting plate as a base to stamp the parts on. To get the least stress on the parts, the stamping should be done in the center of large, flat areas too prevent edge stress problems. Try it, it's the only way to go. A Dremel tool with a marking bit could also be used, but I find the number/letter stamps (or should they be called punches?) easier to use, and neater looking. happy marking ...... Gil Alexander, RV6A #20701 P.S. I just bought a set of number & letter 1/8 inch stamps for an English RV builder on sale from Harbor Freight in Camarillo CA for about $9 ... they are probably not the hardest, but are fine for stamping aluminium parts. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: Oshkosh '94
Date: Jul 11, 1994
Hi Folks, I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca, ....aahhh...., Oshkosh this year. I would be nice to see each other face to face. If nothing else, we should try and get together at Van's banquet. John Perrin and I will be there from the 26th of July through (probably) the 2nd of August. Later Mark ************************************************************************ * Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * * Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * * VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * * FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * ************************************************************************ * RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * * EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * ************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
RV-List
Subject: RE: OSHKOSH
Date: Jul 12, 1994
---------- From: Doug Bloomberg Subject: OSHKOSH Date: Monday, July 11, 1994 4:31PM Howdy, Anyone going to OSHKOSH this year? How about setting up a meeting time and place? I would be fun to put a face to a name. Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ------------------ Count me in ! I'll be there from the 26th through the 2nd or 3rd. Mark ************************************************************************ * Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * * Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * * VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * * FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * ************************************************************************ * RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * * EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * ************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ERNST(at)UIPHYA.PHYSICS.UIUC.EDU
Date: Jul 13, 1994
Subject: Oshkosh
I'll be making my first pilgrimage to Oshkosh this year, and will be there from Thursday (28th?) through Satuday (30th?). I'm staying at least long enough to catch Van's RV-6/A talk at 1pm on Saturday. Are there any other RV or sheet metal oriented talks or workshops that I shouldn't miss? This trip should give me the chance to put faces with names, and (hopefully) to pick up some reasonably priced tools (I'm starting the tail on my -6A in September). Rick. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1994
From: dybdal1(at)llnl.gov (Kym Dybdal)
Subject: Re: Oshkosh '94
Oh oh. I thought it was going to be August 26 thru August 28. Could someone confirm the date? Thanks! >Hi Folks, > >I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca, >....aahhh...., Oshkosh >this year. I would be nice to see each other face to face. If nothing >else, we should try and >get together at Van's banquet. > >John Perrin and I will be there from the 26th of July through (probably) the >2nd of August. > >Later > >Mark > >************************************************************************ >* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * >* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * >* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * >* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * >************************************************************************ >* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * >* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * >************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 13, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Oshkosh '94
>I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca, >....aahhh...., Oshkosh I hope to fly there in my new -6 and stay thru saturday. Pick a place and time (when is the banquet?). Here are some articles from this month's Portland RVators newsletter for your reading enjoyment. don wentz (14 days old, 25.1hrs) SCAPPOOSE (or, How the Black Jack Squadron Washes RVs) (by Greg Rainwater in the Puget Sound RVator) The morning of June 11th saw us sitting in the restaurant at Arlington airport w ondering what to do. We had planned on attending the Scappoose Oregon RV fly-in but, at around 9:30 AM, drizzle had begun to fall. With high ceilings and a fo recast of improve-ment, we decided to go. A three ship formation take off from runway 16 and a straight-out departure to t he south into light rain soon had us on course. Our flight consisted of my son Chad and myself along with Wes Schireman and Dick Bently in a 3 ship formation. John McCornack and his wife Julie followed close behind. Our first stop was Lake Washington, Marty Foy was unable to attend due to family commitments. We, of course, felt obligated to "rub it in" with a few formation passes over his house on our way south. Marty was obviously afraid of a little rainwater (play on words? -- ed) as he was nowhere to be seen. I guess he was hiding inside where it was dry. Water dripped off my VSI as we turned southeast for clearer skies. Near Renton the rain stopped and the clouds began to break up as we headed into Pierce County's Thun Field. Our stop at Thun Field had been planned to coincide with the local EAA chapter p ancake breakfast. We were not disappointed. After a nice visit with the friend ly folks there (and a full load of pancakes!) we departed single file for a joi n-up and a fly by. From there it was south again to Scappoose. The weather got warmer as we got further south. It turned out to be a great fli ght. We found it to be surprisingly smooth considering the small weather front moving through the area. After a few formation passes we landed to join the oth er RV's at the field (what happened to the landing judges this year?) (I think they got sun-burned-out last year -- ed.) I counted approximately 37 RVs in attendance, give or take a few that were alway s coming and going and giving rides. The hospitality was great this year, as al ways. Good food, friendly people, warm weather and lots of RV talk. Everywhere you looked you could see people crawling over, around and under planes to get i deas and help. A big thank you to the Portland RVators for another great fly-in ! After departure and a few more formation passes we turned north and handed the l ead over to Wes for the flight home. We made sure we were pointed at Arlington before giving Wes the lead. You know how these Senior Airline Captains are when they don't have a co-pilot to point the way! The flight home was up the west side of the Puget Sound and was gorgeous. The r ain up north had stopped as predicted and we all had a great time and lots of f un. Scappoose gets better every year. If you haven't made it yet, make it a "m ust do" for next year. (Thanks Greg for all the kind words, we appreciate them. This was the smoothest event yet for us also. We hope you know how much we enjoy the Black Jack fly b ys. Definite crowd pleasers! Nothing wild, just a smooth, clean display of gre at pilots in great airplanes. Thanks for coming! By the way, how did you arrange to have 2 flights of 4 each F-15s fly over preci sely as you were doing your departing circuits? I told everyone I did it, but I don't think they bought it! dw) Scappoose By Gretchen Lankow - 12 years old Saturday, June 11th, we flipped hamburgers at the Scappoose Airport. It was fun . I met some new people. They were all nice. It was a neat experience for me because I felt good about helping out and it was neat looking and learning about all the planes. I've never been that close to an airstrip and all those planes . I learned a lot of stuff I didn't know. Even though I didn't go flying I had fun. (Gretchen was one of the kids from our church youth group who helped cook and se rve at our fly-in. Hers was a sad tale: She had brought a girlfriend along & w hen Gretchen's parents found-out that the friend couldn't go for a young eagles ride without her parent's signature, they decided it wouldn't be fair for Gretch en to go and her friend not. TALK ABOUT A DISAPPOINTED KID! She stomped up and down for awhile fighting back the tears, so I promised her a longer ride when m y -6 is done. It's nice to see that she still had enough fun to write us a note anyway). PS - I met a lot of nice people too! dw. Arlington Don Wentz I just got back today and since I didn't have the nltr done, figured I better pu t in some words about it. Who says all FAA folks are bad guys? After putting 12.5 hrs on my new RV-6 (in 5 days), including giving it a mini-annual on a rainy July 4th, I stopped in at the FSDO last Wednesday and requested my inspector to give me a waiver to allow me to fly to Arlington for the big West Coast EAA fly-in. After careful review of my aircraft log book and maintenance records, he said OK and 1/2 hour later t he papers were in my hands. That afternoon and the next day I built the total hours to 18.2 and got the fuel injection mixture adjusted to where it was working great. Friday morning Andy Hanna and Rion Bourgios landed at Scappoose to fill-up and so I could "fly wing" for the trip north. We took-off in formation and by Kelso had climbed to 10,50 0 feet to overfly some clouds and the Class B at Seattle/Tacoma. The view was a wesome and we settled in to a leisurely cruise, indicating about 190mph grnd spe ed on the Loran. My prop is a little fat and I was indicating only 2100 rpm, 18 .5 inches. I had added firewall and floor insulation the night before and during initial cl imb I was thinking "gee, the engine sure is running smoooth today". I finally r ealized that it just seemed smoother because the soundproofing was working SO we ll. The flight was flawless, the engine purred the whole way, and I just tagged alon g and let them do the navigating. At Everett we began a not so long descent fro m 10,500 with Arlington in sight. I pulled the power back and nosed down, pushi ng the airspeed well into the yellow arc for the first time. The air was still smooth so it was comfy, and we kind of swooped down into the area. Things were going fine with no real traffic problems as we bled our speed in a big swing to the northeast, with traffic using 34. As we were swinging around for a 45 entry into downwind, we began to get an idea of the amount of traffic we would have. While Andy called our entry to the tower, a V-tail Bonanza made a hard 180 to c ut right in front of us in the downwind, making us #6 in the pattern. It wasn't ever close, it just caught them off-guard. To his credit, the V-tail made his approach very short so ours remained pretty normal. Since I wasn't burdened with radio and pattern as much, I was able listen and wa tch and to really enjoy the whole scene, just being sure to maintain altitude an d separation with my leader, which was slightly more difficult turning base and final since I was on the inside (and this was definitely NOT a tight formation ( (). The worst problem I had was when Andy flattened his CS prop on final. I su ddenly found myself blasting out ahead of him. Some quick dropping of anchors ( OK, throttle and flaps) got me back to him and we made a nice landing more or le ss side by side. One of the best moments for me was as we taxied down that last stretch with peop le lining the sides watching us taxi in. At that moment, I realized that I was at my FIRST fly-in in the RV that I had built!!!!!! You gotta experience that t hrill! I shut down and climbed-out, but didn't really come down to earth until about th e time I went to sleep that night. It was great fun pal-ing around with members of our group that were there like Mike Wilson and his family, who were camped-o ut for the duration. We watched the airshow with Norm and Donna Rainey, in the shade of their mansion of a tent. It was so big you could harldly see their RV- 6A (good advertisment for the -6 baggage capability). Rion and I had dinner coo ked by "Brent the Gourmet Camper Ohlgren", complete with wine and chicken and th e whole deal. I hardly looked at any other planes, mostly visited with people a bout my new (9 days old) RV and stumbled around in something of an excitement/fa tigue induced stupor. The evening ended with some visiting with the Springers a nd Jim Anglin, & Andy and I talking by a large bonfire with some other nice EAA folks. Rion & I actually slept-in (I shared my tent with him & will attest that he does n't snore) until about 8, even with airplanes and hot air balloons and all sorts of stuff taking off all over the place. A nice hot shower and some breakfast w oke us up and we got ready to head for home. I was going to stay for the Puget Sound RVators annual airshow picnic for RVers Saturday afternoon and leave after that. But I got to thinking that if I left early with Steve Harris (in Ken's - 6 with Rion in the right seat) I could spend a little time with Janet whom I hav e totally neglected during the last month of "gotta get it done and the time flo wn off" as well as miss that post-airshow melee, which looked pretty hairy the n ight before. As I was packing the plane (when travelling solo the -6 has a TON of room for your stuff) I kept running into folks we know from all the RV/EAA gr oups around the northwest, but Steve needed to get back so we left. It took about 15 minutes before we finally were rolling on 34, with a Fairchild 24 still making his turn off the runway in front of us and a low-wing retractabl e rolling past us in the grass on the right after the tower told him to move ove r to the grass or go-around. Once airborne and climbing, I saw Steve beginning a slow left turn right into the Black Jack flight of 3 on a fly-by. I quickly r ecommended he stay straight for awhile, they passed on our left, we turned and b ack they came in a big sweeping turn. I slowed my climb and after bouncing thru their wake, we settled into a normal climb out of the area. (By the way, those BJ guys look even neater when you're up there in the air with them. As we left the area I listened-in to some practise they were doing out of the Arlington ar ea. They sound very professional and careful in their approach to formation fly ing). It was another beautiful, smooth flight home, al-though somewhat slower since St eve didn't want to push Ken's -6 without the wheel pants on it. My new baby per formed flawlessly throughout, & I am one happy, proud new papa. Oh yes, when I was renting the Taylorcraft, I once made a round trip from HIO to Albany, OR, th at took 3hrs 10 mins. This trip, from the engine start at my hangar to taxi for fuel, until the time I shut down at the Antique club-house back at Scappoose, took 3 hours time on the hobbs! I also calculated the fuel burn today, 18.8 gals/3.1hrs = 6.0 gph! Not bad for an O-360. YES!!!!!!! - ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jul 13, 1994
RV-List
Subject: Re: Oshkosh '94
Kym, I think that you're thinking of Van's Flyin/BBQ which *is* Aug 26-28. Matt >-------------- > Oh oh. I thought it was going to be August 26 thru August 28. Could > someone confirm the date? Thanks! > > > > >Hi Folks, > > > >I was just wondering if any of you are making a pilgrimage to Mecca, > >....aahhh...., Oshkosh > >this year. I would be nice to see each other face to face. If nothing > >else, we should try and > >get together at Van's banquet. > > > >John Perrin and I will be there from the 26th of July through (probably) the > >2nd of August. > > > >Later > > > >Mark > > > >************************************************************************ > >* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * > >* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * > >* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * > >* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * > >************************************************************************ > >* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * > >* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * > >************************************************************************ > > > > > >-------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Jul 14, 1994
Subject: Van's RV Flyin...
Hi all, I just heard that the Van's RV Flyin has a new date of September 2-4. The Spring RVator stated that it was going to be August 26-26 but I guess they moved it. Hope you hadn't already made plans for it - like I had... Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mor374(at)ccmgw.its.csiro.au
Date: Jul 20, 1994
Subject: Hello RV-List are you still there????????
Hi all, I haven't seen any RV mail for the last few days - are you still there????? John Morrissey John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 20, 1994
Subject: Firewall Cutout/Box Report
Dear Readers: Those of you just starting the fuselage or earlier may have noticed and/or heard about cutting a hole in the firewall and adding a box in its place to allow room for a constant-speed prop governor and engine oil filter. To recap, the way the basic kit comes the firewall is flat and you can leave it like that if you never plan to use a constant-speed prop and you will buy a remote mount for the oil filter. Van's has recently made it very easy to add this cutout, so you might as well do it. For less than $7.00 you can get a piece of metal already cut out, ready to bend and mount. It will take you about two hours for the whole thing; the only hard part is cutting the hole in the firewall. There is a catch. Van made the bend lines for the firewall box width to the same dimension as the space between the stiffeners on the firewall (8 inches). That means if you build both to the plans there is only about a 1% chance the box will fit between the stiffeners. You need to bend the box so that it is only about 7 3/4" wide at the open end. This does not require any cutting, just relocating the bend lines. I will be tearing mine up and rebending it tonight. And you wonder why I decided to write up my own instructions. FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: RV-6B
If you've read the latest RVator you know about the RV-6B prototype Van's has been working on. I've been snooping around the shop for some time now wondering what this new beast was all about, but not wanting to say anything to anyone except other "local snoops", since Van and employees have been (understandably) pretty tight-lipped about it. But since they've now announced it I figure the cover's off. Yesterday I got the word that they were going to fly it and went out there to watch, but by the time they were done getting it all ready to go it was 1:00 or so and 100 degrees so they postponed it till this AM. So I headed out there before work today, and by 9:30 or so they were still trying to diagnose a high oil pressure reading, and I had to get to work, so I left. I've been listening on the handheld and can now report that the RV-6B flew, with Van at the controls, and Bill Benedict flying chase in the RV-6A, about 45 minutes ago. From what I could hear there were no problems. They've been scrambling to get it done before OSH, and barring any complications it looks like it'll be there, so if you attend, you'll probably get a chance to look it over. I plan to post a longer "report" (un-official) later on. Randall Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Firewall Cutout/Box Report
Date: Jul 20, 1994
> > There is a catch. Van made the bend lines for the firewall box width to > the same dimension as the space between the stiffeners on the firewall > (8 inches). That means if you build both to the plans there is only > about a 1% chance the box will fit between the stiffeners. You need to > bend the box so that it is only about 7 3/4" wide at the open end. This > does not require any cutting, just relocating the bend lines. I will be > tearing mine up and rebending it tonight. > > And you wonder why I decided to write up my own instructions. > > FKJ > Hi Frank! I actually made the box and cut the firewall several months ago but only installed it last week. I kinda say it was going to be a tight fit, so I allowed for it in the box-bending stage. It ended up fitting very nicely, but snug. And it looks exactly like a toilet paper holder (the type that is recessed in the wall); I'm tempted to hang a roll for kicks and use it to wipe up oil stains. Anyway, the problems I encountered were two-fold (remember, this is for a RV6A): 1. The Overhead Rudder Pedals The box rivets to the firewall angles right where the overhead rudder-pedal support attaches. Solution: Easy; drill right through the box (ie. rivet -> rudder-support--> angle --> box. 2. I added extra supports that go from the bottom of my panel to the firewall, and guess where they terminate; right at the box. Solution: Same as above. Sidenote: These supports were used since I've mounted my engine controls on the lower panel; felt it needed a bit more rigidity. Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing) and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. Also, the instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8, so that's what I used. Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Firewall Cutout/Box Report
> Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing) > and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. Also, the > instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8, > so that's what I used. > > > > Gary B Any thoughts on whether pro-seal is best for the firewall? It seems to me that hi-temp RTV or other heat resistant sealant might be preferable there. I'm not being critical, I know it's not unusal to use pro-seal, in fact I now remember when I was helping Don Wentz rivet his recess in we used it (and I'm STILL trying to get it off my fingers ;-) Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: micrometers/calipers
Anybody use a micrometer or calipers? Dumb question, I know, but I don't have either, never used em. I'm thinking one or both might be awfully useful. I have a catalog that lists digital calipers and micrometers. The digital calipers in my catalog are $121 for a 4" and $136 for a 6". I wonder how much for a good non-digital? And do they show in 64ths or 32nds or are they all in decimal like the digital ones? Of the people who currently own/use a micrometer and/or calipers, which do you think is more useful? Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 20, 1994
From: "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Subject: Trip to Van's
I never did write about my trip to the northwest, but Randall's message about the RV-6B encouraged me to go ahead and mention it. I went to Seattle during the last week in June for the IEEE Antenna and Propagation Society and URSI Radio Science Joint Symposia. The conference had an Everett Boeing plant (747/767/777) tour planned, but conveniently scheduled my presentation at the same time. Thanks to the info given to me by several rv-listers, I went to Everett on Wednesday, arriving at 7:30 for the 9:00 tour, according to the instructions that said that the tours usually fill 1--2 hours ahead of time. Not only did I get into the 9:00 tour, but the tour guides said it was the lightest crowd all summer, and the week before, some people who arrived at 7:30 didn't get on a tour until 1! The best part, however, was that the #1 777 took off on its second flight while we were waiting in line next to the airfield. It was reminiscent of a shuttle flight. Employees in stands cheered as it took off. It was supposed to fly on Sunday... then Monday, etc., but they waited until I was there to witness it. Since my trip was paid for through the weekend to take advantage of lower air fares, I spent a few days in Oregon. On Friday, I went to the Van's plant. As I was warned, I was not overwhelmed with the plain, sheet-metal (what else?) building. I was shown around the building (Sorry I forget the name of the guy who showed me.) and got to see what some unassembled RV parts looked and felt like. I then drove out to Sunset strip to Van's "engineering" facility where Andy gave me a ride in the -6A. I really wanted a ride in the -6, but was told that they hadn't flown it in about a year. The view was incredible. It was a beautiful day. You could see Mt. Hood, Mt. St. Helens, Mt. Adams and Mt. Rainier all at once. Andy let me have the stick, and I, with no flight experience, made perfectly coordinated turns! (OK, actually a testament to the design.) Back at the farm,..er...engineering facility, I looked over the "-6B" under construction and snapped a few pictures. Other than the spring steel landing gear and counter-balanced rudder mentioned in the RVator, I found the solid machined spar to be most interesting. Oh -- I did notice the gear legs poking the back of the legs in the -6A. The spring steel gear probably alleviates this somewhat. I then had a good time talking to Steve, who is a mechanical engineer who does the computer drafting and is SLOWLY converting all the plans to CAD. We were told that Van was going to fly over escorting a B-17, so I waited about 30 minutes (and made sure that Steve got no work done.) I snapped half a roll of film when the B-17 and RV-4 passed over. (I'd like the smoke oil injector option in my RV-6, please!) Someone then pointed out there was a B-24 with them just out of view. Van, with Ken in back, then landed at Sunset. I mailed copies of all of my photos to Van's. Maybe they'll print one in the next RVator. Don Wentz told me to call when I got there. Everywhere I tried calling from the night before was long distance, so after leaving Van's (with my RV-6 T-shirt souvenier) I went straight to Scappoose hoping that Don would be easy to find. I found the airport and was discouraged at the number of hangars, but when I pulled in the gate, an RV-6 on scales was visible inside an open hangar. I went over to Don and Carl Batcher and asked if one of them was Don. It's funny how you picture people on the Internet. I thought that Carl (60ish) was Don! Don looks about 20 (but claims to be more.) I then spent the rest of Friday and most of Saturday "helping" Don assemble his plane. This was my first opportunity to actually apply tools to an aircraft and I'm very thankful to Don for letting me have this experience. I installed about a thousand screws. After a while I got the hang of it and didn't ruin too many more heads. He took advantage of my being an electrical engineer and had me put the comm antenna on and install the battery in the ELT remote panel. That last job was more difficult than it appeared. I didn't know that the screws holding in the remote unit had bolts on them until I heard the bolt go 'tink' into some unknown nook behind the panel. I must have spent an hour laying on my back with my head under the panel until Don came and looked, and with about a 6-man effort, found the bolt and retrieved it. I was probably almost as excited as Don to hear that his plane flew. It was a blast to know that I helped on it a little. I'm supposed to have a set of RV-6 plans on order. John H. Henderson Department of Electrical Engineering Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 20, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: Firewall Cutout/Box Report
>Any thoughts on whether pro-seal is best for the firewall? It seems to me >that hi-temp RTV or other heat resistant sealant might be preferable there. How about a mixture of muffler repair compound, Pro-Seal, and foil tape? That would really hold up good. Your fingers would heal nicely from the cuts from the tape because you would not even be able to burn the stuff off your fingers. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: Firewall Cutout/Box Report
Date: Jul 20, 1994
> > > Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing) > > and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. Also, the > > instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8, > > so that's what I used. > > > > > > > > Gary B > > Any thoughts on whether pro-seal is best for the firewall? It seems to me > that hi-temp RTV or other heat resistant sealant might be preferable there. > > I'm not being critical, I know it's not unusal to use pro-seal, in fact > I now remember when I was helping Don Wentz rivet his recess in we used > it (and I'm STILL trying to get it off my fingers ;-) > > > Randall > > Good point about the hi-temp suitability. However, I used Proseal for the day-to-day carbon-monoxide blockage from the engine fumes. The snug-fit of the box and the riveting would seem to be necessary protection from a fire. I am also in the process of attaching all the fiberglass tips and cowling hinges with Proseal (in addition to the rivets and fiberglassing, of course), so the Proseal was available. I also recall a mention in the RVator (several years ago) concerning some firewall sealing on an RV4 using Proseal. After the fuel tanks, I vowed I would never use it again. But it must have some addictive properties, as I find myself using is here and there. What I do use now is the hand-cream that I use for fiberglass work (that is, to protect me from the toxic resins). I generously apply the hand-cream, especially under my nails and rub it into my knuckles. This seem to really cut down on the smelly-black finger syndrome. After I'm done, I use some acetone to get the rest of my fingers (and hair, and nose, and elbow, and tools, etc...). Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 20, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: Firewall Cutout/Box Report
> 1. The Overhead Rudder Pedals > The box rivets to the firewall angles right where the overhead > rudder-pedal support attaches. Gary: Now that you have brought it up, should I be making a stay-out zone on the stiffeners for this during the initial firewall construction? That is, might rivets you have already put in get in the way of the rudder pedal support mounting? >Final note: I used Proseal both to seal the box structure (before installing) >and then to the box-firewall intersection when I riveted it on. I noticed Van did not mention this in his instruction sheet for the box but all the local builders are doing it. This would block any fuel or oil from getting into the cockpit in case of disaster, at least for the time it would take to get back on the ground. I will put this in the instructions. If ProSeal is not handy a good structural epoxy would also work since it is not continuously exposed to noxious elements. >Also, the >instructions seem to indicate using 3/32 rivets, but I think they meant 1/8, >so that's what I used. I noticed that. 3/32 would be strong enough, but you are not likely to have any universal head rivets of that size around. That means dimpling. It is quicker to just use your 1/8 rivets. If you do that make sure you don't put rivets in the sides near the open end of the box where they will hit the vertical stiffeners on the firewall and compound the original problem (box too wide). There John. You wanted traffic? Frank J. Gary B ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 20, 1994
Subject: Re: micrometers/calipers
>Anybody use a micrometer or calipers? Have both. Never use micrometer, constantly using caliper. I bought several plastic ones for about $3.00 each several years ago and find them plenty accurate enough and they help a lot in building the RV. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Rudder Dimensions
I am in the middle of rudder building and a couple of issues have come up: 1) The skin layout diagram is nice, but the crucial dimensions for positioning the spar are assuming that the skin is as supplied, untrimmed. I discovered, after trimming my skin to the right size, and priming it, that my original layout lines have been obliterated by the primer, and it is tough to accurately draw in new ones after the skin is trimmed. I guess the lesson here is: I shouldn't have trimmed my skin yet! Oh well, I don't think an 1/16" here or there will be too critical. 2) The skin layout diagram seems to show the skin lying flat, but as supplied the skin is already bent, of course. So is one supposed to measure from the original bend reference line(which is tough to do, since you have to measure along the radius of the bend) or simply measure everything from the bent "edge" of the trailing edge? Again, it is only a matter of 1/8" or so, so it probably doesn't matter. _________________ | | | | | | "setback" | | __________________ _- |-----------------| |\ \ | | | \ \ | | | \__________________\ | | |__________________| |_________________| as supplied as drawn 3) What is the new counterbalanced rudder on the RV-6B? An aerodynamic counterbalance? What's wrong with the existing design? Curt Reimer RV-6 2% complete ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 21, 1994
Subject: Re: Rudder Dimensions
> I don't >think an 1/16" here or there will be too critical. > Again, it is only a >matter of 1/8" or so, so it probably doesn't matter. Curt: Right on both counts. You would have to have a big error before something would not go together right. I have seen a problem with several builders that is worth mentioning. I didn't have the problem myself, and I don't know what caused it, but the upper fiberglass tip for the rudder doesn't fit right. There will be a big gap between the ends of the tip and the skin it is supposed to mate with. It is as if too much skin was cut off the top or the spar was attached too far forward. This required either adding bondo to the front end of the tip or adding skin extenders to raise it up some. After you place the spar where you think it should go, hold the upper tip next to the skin and see if it looks like it will fit right after you bend the leading edge. And I would love it if someone would write up some instructions like mine for building the rudder. Any volunteers? While the rudder is not as bad as the elevators, I still hear of people having trouble with it. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mag(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 21, 1994
Subject: Frank Justice's RV Instructions Are On-Line!
You can retrieve Frank Justice's RV instructions from our WWW site: http://matrix.ssd.intel.com:8008/~mag/rv-builder.html Happy Browsing! Michael A. Goldsmith ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Rudder Dimensions
> Curt: > > Right on both counts. You would have to have a big error before something would > not go together right. I have seen a problem with several builders that is worth > mentioning. I didn't have the problem myself, and I don't know what caused it, > but the upper fiberglass tip for the rudder doesn't fit right. There will be a > big gap between the ends of the tip and the skin it is supposed to mate with. It > is as if too much skin was cut off the top or the spar was attached too far > forward. This required either adding bondo to the front end of the tip or adding > skin extenders to raise it up some. After you place the spar where you think it > should go, hold the upper tip next to the skin and see if it looks like it will > fit right after you bend the leading edge. At first mine seemed way under-sized, but then found it was too wide, so I heated it up in hot water and pressed the sides together, which not only made it narrower but also elongated it, so it ended up fitting quite well. Randall Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 21, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Rudder Dimensions Rudder Dimensions
> 3) What is the new counterbalanced rudder on the RV-6B? An aerodynamic > counterbalance? What's wrong with the existing design? > > Curt Reimer > RV-6 2% complete They developed the taller VS with taller, counterweighted rudder to compensate for the larger canopy on the Nigerian air beetle, and since the RV-6T demonstrator is essentially that, they put one on there. The -6B doesn't have the taller canopy, although apparently it is slightly taller than normal due to some mods to the canopy track. I guess they just decided that greater rudder authority and larger VS to minimize VS/Rudder blocking in a slip would be more desirable in a likely production plane, hence its use on the -6B. Randall Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister)
Subject: Airplane Elbow
Date: Jul 22, 1994
We finally figured out the major mystery of the last few days. Why do both my wife and I have what used to be called "tennis elbow". The elbow region of both of our arms near the "crazy bone". (No comments please). I tried to figure what we have both been doing that would have caused both of us to have this affliction. The only project that we have been working on together lately was the RV-6. Then I realized what was going on. We both have been using the rivet gun. Holding the rivet gun seems to tense that muscle. Has anyone else experienced "airplane elbow" ? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : | : Randy S. McCallister : : _________________|_________________ :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : \ | | / : : : `.#####.' : Phone 703-831-6227 : : /`#_#'\ : Fax : 703-831-5893 : :RV-6 12574 O' O `O PA-22-108 :rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu : :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Trip to Van's
John, you will be happy to hear that the Comm Antennae and ELT are working fine, and none of the parts you screwed-on have fallen-off! 38.5 hours, will finish flying-off time today (friday). Heading for Oshkosh Monday or Tuesday with able co-pilot Doug Miner on board. Having a ball flying it. Hey Randall, did you notice that Van FINALLY figured-out how to paint an RV - stripe small in front increasing in width towards the back? The yellow with red stripe are (my opinion) his best colors yet. Looking forward to your discussion of just WHAT the RV-6B is. dw >I was probably almost as excited as Don to hear that his plane flew. >It was a blast to know that I helped on it a little. >I'm supposed to have a set of RV-6 plans on order. >John H. Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Rudder Dimensions
>but the upper fiberglass tip for the rudder doesn't fit right. There >will be a big gap between the ends of the tip and the skin it is >supposed to mate with. >Frank J. If I can offer one piece of advice that will apply throughout your projects: NEVER, I repeat, NEVER trim skins where a later fit will be required until it is absolutely necessary! If you leave the extra 1" to 1.5" of skin above the top rudder rib and the top vertical stab rib until you are fitting the tips, you will have a much better chance to get a good fit, AND, to adjust the angle of those two parts in relation to each other when the rudder/stab are mated. This also applies to the wing tips, horz stab, elevators, flap inboard skin ends, etc. I know the plans say to leave 'at least .5" or so' for mounting tips, but leave as much as you can, it will increase your chances for a better fit later. It also leaves you more material to file/trim-off later if you 'ding' something or make a bad cut. While we're on the subject, with all the talk about 'heavy tails', I hope I don't see any of you 'bondo-ing' the seams where your fiberglass tips mate to your stabs/elev/rudder. All this does is add weight and look ugly. Personally, I feel a well-done straight seam where two dissimilar materials are joined is better looking than the best job of covering that seam with filler. Just look at several done both ways and you may see what I mean. The fact that it is lighter should be reason enough for you ounce-concious builders out there. Since I haven't seen any more about this subject, why don't those of you going to Osh meet at Van's booth at 10am thursday? Doug Miner & I will be leaving Portland Monday, planning to take at least 2 days to get there. Hopefully we'll be flying wing for local RV-6 pilot Dan Delano, who will have RV-lister Rion Bourgious as co-pilot. See you there, Don Wentz, RV-6 #20369, 180hp fi, Warnke 72x73 prop. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: Oshkosh
Date: Jul 22, 1994
Hi Folks Thought I'd drop a note saying that John Perrin and I will be at Oshkosh starting Tuesday night (it's a long drive from Ottawa). Nobody has set a time to meet so I figured that maybe we could meet in front of Vans tent at 1000 on (insert day here). I expect we will be there at 1000 each day until Sunday (banquet day). Just so you recognize at least one of us, I'll be the rather large, bearded individual wearing his RV baseball cap backwards (it will look stupid, but hey, I'll be a 1000 miles from home so who cares!!) Mark ************************************************************************ * Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * * Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * * VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * * FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * ************************************************************************ * RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * * EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * ************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 22, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Oshkosh
Text item: Hi Folks OK, each day at 10am at Van's tent is a reasonable plan, see you there. dw >Thought I'd drop a note saying that John Perrin and I will be at >Oshkosh starting Tuesday night (it's a long drive from Ottawa). >Nobody has set a time to meet so I figured that maybe we could meet >in front of Vans tent at 1000 on (insert day here). I expect we will >be there at 1000 each day until Sunday (banquet day). Just so you >recognize at least one of us, I'll be the rather large, bearded >individual wearing his RV baseball cap backwards (it will look >stupid, but hey, I'll be a 1000 miles from home so who cares!!) >Mark Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Date: Fri, 22 Jul 94 14:12:00 EDT Subject: Oshkosh From: Mark Richardson <sofkin.ca!richards(at)matronics.com> ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 25, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: RV-6B
RV-6B Report For the past few months as I've wandered in and out of Van's "skunk-works" I've been catching glimpses of a strange airplane taking shape. Van and employees were pretty tight-lipped about it so I've honored their wishes and not talked about it to anyone (except to other locals who've been snooping around as I have), but since they announced it in the latest RVator and have started to show it off at fly-ins I figure the cover's off so to speak, so I suppose it's ok to spill my guts. They're calling it the RV-6B, and it looks a lot like a -6A, but it has quite a few modifications. Previously whenever I asked one of Van's employees about it they'd just say "it's a bunch of things Van wanted to try out", which is more or less what they're still saying, although they also now admit (which I suspected all along) that the mods are "production plane" oriented. It's painted yellow with a red stripe (looks nice), and has a 160hp lycoming with a Senesenich fixed pitch prop. Among the differences from a stock RV-6 are: Lengthened fuselage and an extended engine mount, increasing the length of the airplane by about four inches. Leaf type steel main gear legs. Machined, one piece wing spars -- would cut way down on building time if they ever made it available in the kits, but more expensive in terms of materials cost. Primarily a production plane measure, according to Van. Rectangular planform horizontal stabilizer - again, supposed to cut down on labor. Doesn't look half bad though. Larger, rectangular elevators, with correspondingly larger counterweight arms. Taller VS with counterweight arm like the -6T. Since the -6B doesn't have the tall canopy like the -6T, I would guess they included it either because of the longer fuselage or because they determined that more rudder authority and/or yaw stability was needed in order to achieve certification, or maybe both. Slotted flaps, with hinges that hang down below the wing like a C-180. More drag, but they should reduce the stall speed. Van is still testing this and all he would say when I asked him was "it seems to be working". Wing tanks non-removable -- just riveted to the spar like the leading edge. Partly because of the new spar, and probably a lot easier to build, but what if they ever leak? And guess what -- one of them does. Or did, they sloshed it after the fact, I expect it's fixed now. In addition to the differences from the basic kit, the instrument panel is a "glass cockpit", with an Apollo moving map GPS, a Vision Microsystems engine/fuel status display, and a Rocky Mountain Instruments pitot/static monitor. The only mechanical instruments in the panel are the compass and G meter. (Van says in an actual production plane they'd probably just go with the standard 'T' configuration for the instruments.) The results look to me like pretty much what you'd expect for a kit plane modified to achieve certification -- most of the mods involve higher drag and extra weight, but should provide for better stability and slow flight. Given that the RV-6A is already a pretty docile airplane as high-performance kit planes go, I would expect that if anything is going to succeed as a production plane, the RV-6B looks like a good candidate, if they decide to follow through on it. Which brings up an interesting point for discussion: what do we as builders of RV _KIT_ planes think of the whole idea of a production RV? Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 27, 1994
Subject: Frank's RV Instructions
There have already been a bunch of accesses to the RV build instructions that Mike Goldsmith recently put on a server. You can help improve them by sending mail to me indicating any of the following: Things you don't understand Methods you think may work better Typo errors Comments about any tools or tool usage, bought or homemade Any problem areas with kits shipped several years ago that have since been corrected (for those who are moving slower) I will be making minor revisions on an irregular basis using all of the above. I will have to check out any significant variations in methods by actually trying them myself, which requires the cooperation of a local builder who is at the right stage. Therefore some improvements may not show up as soon as others. It is not likely I will be able to use any major changes in order of steps because of the effort required to verify them and the present order seems to work reasonably well. I don't plan to give credit for everything sent in, mainly because so many people have already contributed. Also, this will never be turned into a profit-making venture. Frank J. frank(at)ssd.intel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 27, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: micrometers/calipers
After shopping around with all your comments in mind, I ended up getting a plastic dial caliper for $28. I appreciate all the comments, they helped me realize I didn't really NEED to pay the big bucks for the fanciest digital electronic one, which in fact probably wouldn't have been as useful, since it doesn't have any fractional (64ths) measurements, only decimal. I did drool for a moment over a very nice looking steel dial caliper ($121) but passed it up. The one I got reads in both 64ths and 100ths on the dial. I'm sure it will be quite useful, especially when I think about all the times I've held my machinist's rule up against something that I couldn't quite line up with and just eyeballed the measurement -- this should help a lot with accuracy and save time by avoiding having to come up with goofy ways to measure oddly shaped parts. Thanks all for your input. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au
Date: Jul 28, 1994
Subject: Re: Frank's RV Instructions
Hi Frank, Just one little comment!! I'M Impressed!! The instructions are and excellent addition to Van's Manual. I hope you don't mind, I have give copies of your manual to a number of builders here in Australia who don't have access to the net. Thanks again John Morrissey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Frank's RV Instructions Date: 27/7/94 8:59 AM There have already been a bunch of accesses to the RV build instructions that Mike Goldsmith recently put on a server. You can help improve them by sending mail to me indicating any of the following: Things you don't understand Methods you think may work better Typo errors Comments about any tools or tool usage, bought or homemade Any problem areas with kits shipped several years ago that have since been corrected (for those who are moving slower) I will be making minor revisions on an irregular basis using all of the above. I will have to check out any significant variations in methods by actually trying them myself, which requires the cooperation of a local builder who is at the right stage. Therefore some improvements may not show up as soon as others. It is not likely I will be able to use any major changes in order of steps because of the effort required to verify them and the present order seems to work reasonably well. I don't plan to give credit for everything sent in, mainly because so many people have already contributed. Also, this will never be turned into a profit-making venture. Frank J. frank(at)ssd.intel.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 28, 1994
its.csiro.au!John.Morrissey(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re[2]: Frank's RV Instructions
> I hope you don't mind, I have give copies of your manual to a > number of builders here in Australia who don't have access to the net. > > Thanks again > > John Morrissey That's the whole idea. The more people who can build an RV without having to redo a bunch of stuff or be unhappy with the results the better I will feel. FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Jul 28, 1994
Subject: Doubler blues, etc...
I was in the shop last night fitting the doubler that goes on the nose ribs between the LE skin and the fuel tank (W-623?) and ran into a few problems. The doubler as supplied (36") isn't long enough to cover the nose ribs, with about a 3/4 to 1" shortage. The plans don't show a good overall view of the doubler in relation to the ribs, so I don't know if it's not supposed to cover the entire rib or what. Seems to me it should cover the rib but stop short of the spar web. Anyone got any insight? By the way, I did get it clamped down (under the LE skin) with all the gaps and bulges out... it's _definately_ shorter than the rib. I've got to get at least one new one anyway (misdrilled several holes - again), so should I get another W-623, or should I get a longer strip from stock? Note that all this was going on _before_ the tornadoes went by (said with hair still standing on end). Made an impressive (in a relative kinda sense) waterspout when it hit the bay. Anyone else notice Mike Pilla made the first flight in Rae Hoopes RV-6 in this month's RVator? Both are regulars at the Frederick forum, and Mike is (was? where are you, Mike?) an RV-lister. Congrats. ________________________________________________________________________________ a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6 is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you. And just to toss out a barb or two - I see two design flaws in the RV-6B: 1) It's not a tail dragger 2) It's side-by-side seating. (and a distant third - no tailhook) (big smile) Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil (building a -4, obviously) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mag(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 28, 1994
Subject: Frank's Instructions: Help for those with dumb terminals
For those of you with internet access, but without X windows, MS windows or a Mac, you can use Lynx. It is a WWW browser for dumb terminals. It is available by anonymous ftp from: ftp2.cc.ukans.edu in directory pub/lynx. Enjoy, Michael A. Goldsmith ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: RV spins
Date: Jul 28, 1994
From: "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com>
Dave Hyde speculates: > >From scanning the -6B discussion, I wonder if vertical stab sizing was > a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6 > is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van > uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you. Did anyone catch the account in the last RVator "First Flights" section about a builder that did some aerobatics in his new RV-6. It very casually metioned that he did spins and a bunch of other stuff. I can't remember who the builder is, but most folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially in the -6. (After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know what happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your barbs, Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his flight testing? Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 28, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Those Instructions
Has anyone considered forwarding these instructions to Van's for incorporation into or modification of the manual? -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: RV spins
Hi All, Well having spun a RV6 by mistake during type certification testing here in Australia, all I can say is that its exciting!! It has a pretty fast rotation (short Wings) and starts out with a bit of a oscillation in the pitch axis(short Fuselage). Apart from that, It recovers OK with full opposite rudder and forward stick. Beware ! Depending on how straight your aircraft is and its final setup you can get a lot of variation in this. be very wary of attempting the with either full forward or full aft CofG. You have to work up to the spin and collect clues on what the aircraft is likely to do in the spin entry. Look for dramatic wing drop in the stall especially in high back turns with Flaps extended. My entry was a rather aerobatic one and she went right over on its back during the entry. ONLY attempt your first spins with a lot of allitude to recover. Remember to check you Parachute before you get in the aircraft :-). Remember Stay calm - you must avoid becoming disorientated Full opposite rudder, hold it that way until you recover (some guys say step on the heavy peddle) Ease the stick forward until you recover from the stall The aircraft WILL recover after a turn or two. Enjoy John Morrissey BTW I gained my spin experience from about 800hrs of Gliding instruction. Make sure you are current in aerobatics. Take a refresher ride in a Pitts or something similar. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RV spins AARNet_Gateway Date: 28/7/94 11:18 AM Dave Hyde speculates: > >From scanning the -6B discussion, I wonder if vertical stab sizing was > a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6 > is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van > uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you. Did anyone catch the account in the last RVator "First Flights" section about a builder that did some aerobatics in his new RV-6. It very casually metioned that he did spins and a bunch of other stuff. I can't remember who the builder is, but most folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially in the -6. (After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know what happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your barbs, Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his flight testing? Earl ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: Re: RV spins
Earl says: >It very casually metioned that he did spins and a bunch of >other stuff. I can't rememberwho the builder is, but most >folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially in the -6. >(After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know what >happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your >barbs, Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his >flight testing? Don't have that issue with me...I'll look for it tonight. Did he do them on the FIRST flight? Wow. I think spins are a good idea, even if they are tough (I didn't want to say 'risky'). Later, much later in the flight test period, though. I plan on doing spin testing, if not regular spins, on my -4 when I finish it. I think it's a pretty smart thing to do in anything you're going to do acro in 1) so that you approach departures and spins in a controlled and planned manner, and can 'adjust' the type of flying you do if they turn out nasty, and 2) so that you are familiar with the characteristics when it does happen inadvertantly. I've got a little experience doing (real and unintentional :) ) departure and spin testing in other types, so I've got some insight into the situation...but I'll still ask for help from anyone who's got ideas! I also got the impression from Van that spins in the -4 were no big deal, and that in the -6 they were just a little slow to recover. Are people shying away from them in RV's in particular, or from spins in (approved) GA airplanes in general? What does happen when you spin a Yankee? I just thought they dropped out of the sky at 80 knots. (zing!) Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil Next question: I've got the tailhook fittings mounted on the aft fuselage bulkheads. Now where do I put the catapult holdback attach points? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: Re: Those Instructions
>Has anyone considered forwarding these instructions to Van's for >incorporation into or modification of the manual? Yes, Van and company have seen them but are not interested. They feel like building an RV should be an exercise in figuring things out for yourself. If you have called in for technical help you have probably gotten that impression first hand. This is the old "spirit of adventure" thing, and I have run into a significant number of builders who would rather do it this way. There are many other builders who are just the opposite and want to buy prebuilt spars, tanks, wings, even the whole airplane. My instructions are aimed at those builders in between who want the pride of doing it all themselves but not the frustrations of skins with kinks, parts that have to be made over, and having to undo hours worth of work to get to something else. When my airplane is done and the instructions are finished I will probably advertise in the RV-Ator and sell them for printing and mailing costs. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: RV spins
>Next question: I've got the tailhook fittings mounted on the >aft fuselage bulkheads. Now where do I put the catapult holdback >attach points? No problem if you were building a -6A!! FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________ (5.65+UW94.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.30 ) id AA21491;
Date: Jul 29, 1994
From: Karen Hampton <khampton(at)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Frank Justice's instructions
I've tried to access Frank's instructions and was able to look at them a little bit using LYNX on a pc but didn't see how to print out the whle document. Are they available via anonymous ftp? If not, could you please mail them directly to me Frank? Since our mailer is currently down, could you please send it t: khampton(at)carson.u.washington.edu. Thanks, I appreciate the help. I plan to order the wing kit real soon now, probably in August. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: CV-6A
:>Next question: I've got the tailhook fittings mounted on the :>aft fuselage bulkheads. Now where do I put the catapult holdback :>attach points? :No problem if you were building a -6A!! Which will be a -6 after the first catapult! (big smile, pat the dash) DH ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1994
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com>
Subject: Re: Those Instructions
> When my airplane is done and the instructions are finished I will > probably advertise in the RV-Ator and sell them for printing and mailing > costs. "Hello Van's? I'd like to order an RV-6 kit. I'd like the Philotigon Spar and the FrankCo assembly instructions options." :-) -- Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."? --- Don't answer that! "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: Re[2]: Those Instructions
>"Hello Van's? I'd like to order an RV-6 kit. I'd like the Philotigon Spar >and the FrankCo assembly instructions options." If you get option #2 you won't need option #1. fkj ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Cgaddis(at)aol.com
Date: Jul 29, 1994
Subject: FOR SALE: RV-6 KIT
After considerable thought and months of soul searching, I've decided that an RV-6 is just not going to fit the bill. There's no way around it, I need 4 seats. So, my kit is for sale. For those of you who will be needing a wing kit soon, I just received mine a couple of weeks ago. It's still in the shipping crates. The wing spar was built by Phlogiston. The whole thing cost me $4000.00. It can be yours for $3500.00 + shipping. Save $500.00 and get your wing kit now. You won't have to wait 5 months like I did. I also have the horizontal and vertical stabilizers riveted and primed with Dupont Variprime. The rudder is all ready for final assembly... just needs a coat of primer and the skin can be riveted to the spar assembly. The elevators are as I received them from Van's Aircraft last year. I'll take $400.00, or best offer, for the empenage components including all the nuts, bolts, rivets, and other assorted hardware. If anyone is interested, you can email me at cgaddis(at)aol.com or cgaddis(at)ess.harris.com. You can also call me at home at 407-242-4643, or at work at 407-984-5772. Shipping will be by overland freight from Melbourne, Florida. As for my next plane, I'm looking at Velocity, Express, and Lancair. I like what I've read about the Lancair ES. Best of Luck to all of you with your project. Matt, thanks for supporting the mailing list, It's been great. Carl ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jul 29, 1994
From: James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com>
tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com, ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re[3]: RV spins
Text item: Very important!!! with spin recovery. ----- !!!!! ALWAYS BE SHURE TO PULL THE POWER !!!!! ----- I'm not sure about the RV, but in a Pitts, if you don't pull the power and use forward stick to recover you likely will end up in an inverted flat spin. If you forget and this happens, just remember!!! PULL THE POWER !!! Normal recovery is no problem with POWER OFF. JMW Hi All, Well having spun a RV6 by mistake during type certification testing here in Australia, all I can say is that its exciting!! It has a pretty fast rotation (short Wings) and starts out with a bit of a oscillation in the pitch axis(short Fuselage). Apart from that, It recovers OK with full opposite rudder and forward stick. Beware ! Depending on how straight your aircraft is and its final setup you can get a lot of variation in this. be very wary of attempting the with either full forward or full aft CofG. You have to work up to the spin and collect clues on what the aircraft is likely to do in the spin entry. Look for dramatic wing drop in the stall especially in high back turns with Flaps extended. My entry was a rather aerobatic one and she went right over on its back during the entry. ONLY attempt your first spins with a lot of allitude to recover. Remember to check you Parachute before you get in the aircraft :-). Remember Stay calm - you must avoid becoming disorientated Full opposite rudder, hold it that way until you recover (some guys say step on the heavy peddle) Ease the stick forward until you recover from the stall The aircraft WILL recover after a turn or two. Enjoy John Morrissey BTW I gained my spin experience from about 800hrs of Gliding instruction. Make sure you are current in aerobatics. Take a refresher ride in a Pitts or something similar. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RV spins AARNet_Gateway Date: 28/7/94 11:18 AM Dave Hyde speculates: > >From scanning the -6B discussion, I wonder if vertical stab sizing was > a result of RV-6 and 6A spin testing? I seem to recall that the -6 > is slower to recover than the -4 and initially made Van > uncomfortable. A larger VS would help here. Just a guess, mind you. Did anyone catch the account in the last RVator "First Flights" section about a builder that did some aerobatics in his new RV-6. It very casually metioned that he did spins and a bunch of other stuff. I can't remember who the builder is, but most folks shy away from spins in RVs--especially in the -6. (After all, it LOOKS like a Grumman-Yankee and we all know what happens when you spin one on those! Just helping you with your barbs, Dave.) Anyone know any more about this guy or his flight testing? Earl Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: Re[2]: RV spins Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 09:56:35 +1000 From: its.csiro.au!John.Morrissey(at)matronics.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
Date: Aug 01, 1994
Subject: That doubler thang
I've seen three responses so far; Gil, Gary, and Randall all saying that their W-623's were too short as well, by about 1/2 in. per side. As it looks like I won't make min edge spacing for the plate nuts the way mine worked out and I mis-drilled a few holes to boot, I've got to get another one anyway, so I'm just going to get some sheet stock about 40" long and cut it to the proper length. Unless someone comes up with a reason to leave it short (soon!), that is. Sorry to see Carl go. What changed your mind? Dave Hyde davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Aug 01, 1994
Subject: Re: RV-6B
> > follow through on it. Which brings up an interesting point for discussion: > what do we as builders of RV _KIT_ planes think of the whole idea of a > production RV? > Where do I but stock in the company. I think it will be a competitive aircraft (assuming reasonable pricing.) However, I don't think it will detract from my desire to build one. We've had discussion before about too-far-aft center of gravity with light engine/prop. Perhaps Van's will produce and offer the longer engine mount and cowling to builders to move the CG forward a bit. John Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: That doubler thang
As I recall, mine required 'scabbing-in' a small piece also. Your plan is a good one - worst case you can cut it to original size if anyone ever figures-out why it is 'too short'. As for Carl, who feels 4 seats is a requirement, on display at Oshkosh along with the Lancair ES (4-seat fixed-trike composite), were basically identical offerings from KIS and Cirrus (the VK-30 pusher folks). Now there are 3 to choose from in that category. Glasair also had their 'Glastar' 2 seat (possible 2+2) high-wing on display. Very pretty for a high-wing 152-sized aircraft. Composite fuselage with nicely built, light weight ALL ALUMINUM strut-braced wings. Steel tube inner floor/gear/engine-mount structure. Has hard points for nose or tail dragger main gear (tubular steel). They felt they could offer a complete kit: airframe, panel with basic instruments, new continental -240 (?) engine, all you would need, for <$35K. Really one of the nicest "medium performance" offerings I've seen. Tons of RVs there. This was our first trip to Oshkosh, and we made it in my now 1 month old RV-6. We had a BLAST! By the way, due to an on field starter replacement we had to do on my RV, we only made the "10 am RV-List mtg at Van's tent" on wednesday morning, and didn't see any listers. Full Oshkosh trip report forthcoming. dw >I've seen three responses so far; Gil, Gary, and Randall all >saying that their W-623's were too short as well, by about >1/2 in. per side. As it looks like I won't make min edge spacing >for the plate nuts the way mine worked out and I mis-drilled >a few holes to boot, I've got to get another one anyway, so I'm just >going to get some sheet stock about 40" long and cut it to the proper >length. Unless someone comes up with a reason to leave it short >(soon!), that is. >Sorry to see Carl go. What changed your mind? >Dave Hyde ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 1994
From: "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RV-6B
In response to the Hendersons' comments (Randall and John) on the RV-6B and its effect on the RV-6 and -6A kits, let me say that I don't believe it will replace them or reduce their value. It is my understanding that the RV-6B is aimed at the trainer market, and the modifications are an attempt to make it less responsive and hence more docile, not correct any CG deficiency. In this regards, I just got back from OSHKOSH where I flew right seat in Dan DeLano's RV-6, and the sobriquet of "baggage wagon" for the RV-6 and -6A (albeit only used by RV-4 pilots) is apt. We piled in dome tent, two sleeping bags, two air mattresses, two lawn chairs, two clothes bags, two cameras, novels, canteens, cell-phone, and miscellaneous items until the baggage compartment was filled to the level of the seat tops. If we had piled it any higher, baggage would have spilled forward into the passenger area. On the way back, we had all of the above plus T-shirts, caps, cups, tools, parts and brochures we picked up at the Fly Market. We always filled the tanks to the brim. We experienced absolutely no handling or trim problems of any kind. It may be possible to load an RV-6 beyond its aft CG limit, but it would take a real effort to do so. The RV-6 and -6A have never, to my knowledge, had any CG deficiency. The RV-6B does not appear an attempt to improve on the -6 and -6A, so even if the -6 or -6A went into production or were offered as a kit, I don't see it reducing the desirability or value of the -6 or -6A. If I owned an FBO or ran a flying club, I might prefer owning an RV-6B than the previous models, but I can't imagine why anyone would prefer it over the -6 or -6A as their personal mount. Before you start chortling, Randall, I still prefer the RV-4, and don't regret that I am building it instead of an RV-6, even though it won't carry as much baggage as an RV-6, at least not with a passenger and within CG limits. But if my primary mission WERE a camper instead of a tandem seat fun- flyer and RV-6 killer, I would build an RV-6 or RV-6A, not an RV- 6B. One benefit RV-6 and -6A builders should not overlook: with the introduction of the RV-6B, there is now a VanGrunsven design you will be able to outfly, a ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 01, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: RV-6B
>> > follow through on it. Which brings up an interesting point for discussion: >> what do we as builders of RV _KIT_ planes think of the whole idea of a >> production RV? >> > > from John Henderson >Where do I but stock in the company. I think it will be a competitive >aircraft (assuming reasonable pricing.) However, I don't think it >will detract from my desire to build one. > >We've had discussion before about too-far-aft center of gravity >with light engine/prop. Perhaps Van's will produce and offer the >longer engine mount and cowling to builders to move the CG forward >a bit. I hope so, since I have not bought my finishing kit yet :-) This brings up an interesting point in purchasing Van's kits. By buying my kits when I needed them, I got the pre-drilled gear attach points, and the laser cut bulkheads. I did miss out on the better formed wing ribs though. Because of Vans continous improvement in his kits, I would suggest to all new builders to buy one kit at a time, rather than all at once. Financially, I would guess that Vans rate of price increase has been less than inflation (except for Lycoming engines!!!), and that the risk of not getting final kits due to a business failure is pretty minimal, especially due to the metal construction {this is not true for the glass kits, as witnessed by the Wheeler Express experience}. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?? Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ... fus. bulkheads ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 1994
From: FACCHINETTI <Claudio.Facchinetti(at)imt.unine.ch>
Subject: RV-4, 6 or 6a ?
Hi RV-fans, I'm new to this mailing list and I have a few questions for you RV-4 and 6/6a owners. I'm currently trying to select the RV that would fit me best. I got the RV info pack, but there are things you can't really figure out just by reading numbers. First, the RV-4 has about half as much extra payload (baggage) than the RV-6/6a (I didn't see anything mentioned concerning volume for the RV-4). What does it mean practically ? Can you still do some X-country with more than a towel, toothpaste and a couple of toothbrushes in the baggage compartment ? My problem choosing between RVs is that I will use my plane 90% for fun, aerobatics training (well, first learning) and sight-seeing. But I also intend to use it 10% for travelling, maybe even for really long distances. Of course, I'll probably have to rent a 182 in various occasions, but it would certainly be appreciable (for my purse) to use my plane as often as possible. So, question: is there a big difference in aerobatics skills between the RV-4, 6 and 6a ? Is the RV-4 comfortable enough on long distances ? Is it possible to say that my choice should be between the RV-4 and the RV-6a, or does the RV-6 offer a sensible difference (according to the above constraints) compared to the 6a ? Is the RV-6 more like an RV-4 with front seats or a 6a with conventional gear (I know the question sounds stupid, but I guess you get the idea...) ? I never flew a taildragger, but wouldn't mind doing it. Thanks in advance for advices, --Claudio ________________________________________________________ | Claudio Facchinetti | | Institute for Microtechnology Tel: | | Tivoli 28, CH-2000 Neuchatel Fax 0041.38.301.845 | /) Switzerland Pro 0041.38.301.653 (\ / ) facchinetti(at)imt.unine.c Pri 0041.38.252.878 ( \ _( (|________________________________________________________) ) /> (((\ \) /,) / ) / //))/ (\\\\ \_/ / \ \_/ ///// \ / \ / \ _/ \_ / ----/ /-----------------------------------------------------\ \---- / / \ \ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Lycoming O-320 Conversion, props
Two things as I prepare to get serious with engine installation: 1) Anyone have any experience converting low compression O-320 engines to high compression? Is it really as simple as taking off the jugs, honing them (how do you do that really?), installing new pistons and rings, adjusting the mixture (or is there anything else required with the carburator?)? 2) OK - what is the net wisdom on available wood props? In other words, whose should I buy and why? Richard ...not wanting to have to mess with my -E2D but probably really wanting 160hp and lower fuel consumption... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 1994
From: "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Claudio's dilemma
In deciding which two-seat RV to build, a logical approach would be to list the relative advantages and disadvantages of each in relation to the other two-seater RV models. I would assume Claudio and any other prospective RV builder has already used a similar process to eliminate other manufacturers' kits. I would propose the following as a list of the relative advantages and disadvantages of the RV-4 vs. the RV-6s, and then theh RV-6 vs. theh RV-6A. RV-4 vs. RV-6s: RV-4 Advantages: faster, sexier, better visibility, better acrobatics due to pilot sitting on center line, less expensive to build, and more fun to stand beside at fly-ins. Disadvantages: cramped rear seat, less baggage capacity, less range. RV-6s Advantages: more comfort for passenger/co-pilot, tremendous baggage capacity (two lawn chairs no problem), room for IFR panel, more range. Float conversion already available for the -6. Disadvantages: less visibility to the right, looks less like a P-51, more expensive kit, pilot sits offset to one side or the other. Comments: I understand the float kit for the RV-4 is in the works. The range can be equalized by building RV-6 tanks on the RV-4. The baggage differential can be reduced, but not eliminated, by installing storage lockers in the RV-4 wing tips. Of course, storage lockers in the RV-6 tips restores the differential. Bottom line is that the RV-6 is more convenient for camping, and more comfortable for the passenger, but the RV-4 is more fun for the pilot to fly due to the tandem seating. A serious question to consider is how big is your spouse, whether or not your spouse will be happy riding in the back, and if your spouse is a pilot, whether or not you will be happy riding in the back. I have only flown in the back seat of an RV-4, and much prefer the right seat of the RV- 6 to the back seat of the RV-4. But I fly a Champion 7ECA (Citabria) taildragger regularly, and much prefer the tandem seating arrangement to side-by-side due to the differences in visibility and the feel of the airplane. I really like being able to see the ground equally on both sides. In a side-by-side airplane, I always feel like I'm missing something. Most of my flying will be sport flying, I have always traveled light, and my wife is not a pilot. I will not have to fly in the back seat of my RV-4. So I chose the RV-4. RV-6 vs. RV-6A: RV-6 Advantages: the tail-dragger looks better, is lighter and slightly faster, and is cheaper to build. The float conversion is already available. Disadvantages: the tail-dragger is harder to land. RV-6A Advantages: the trike is easier to land, and has better visibility taxiing. Disadvantages: the trike is a tad heavier, a tad slower, and can be mistaken from a distance for a Grumman product. Comments: I don't believe the RV-6 can be used on appreciably rougher fields than the -6A, at least not with the standard sized main wheels. I have never landed my Citabria on a field an RV-6A could not handle. I don't think rough fields are an issue here, but I am no bush pilot. I have flown in both the -6 and the -6A, and I can't tell the difference in flight. I can sure tell the difference taxiing and landing: the -6A is easier to land, and has better taxiing visibility at slow speeds. I think the major advantage of the -6 over the -6A is looks. The -6 is no more fun to fly than the -6A unless you like the challenge of landing the taildragger. If you haven't flown taildraggers in the past, you could transition very quickly into the RV-6A, but will need some serious training before you fly the RV-4 or RV-6. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 1994
From: "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Subject: PMA engines at OSH?
Who went to Oshkosh? What the latest of the line of 4-cylinder engines from Henry Boulay/PMA ? John H. Henderson Department of Electrical Engineering Auburn University Set of -6 plans supposedly on order. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 05, 1994
From: James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Claudio's dilemma
Text item: Van's Aircraft has the new Introduction Video available now. It's only $10 and gives a great overview of all models. jmw In deciding which two-seat RV to build, a logical approach would be to list the relative advantages and disadvantages of each in relation to the other two-seater RV models. I would assume Claudio and any other prospective RV builder has already used a similar process to eliminate other manufacturers' kits. I would propose the following as a list of the relative advantages and disadvantages of the RV-4 vs. the RV-6s, and then theh RV-6 vs. theh RV-6A. RV-4 vs. RV-6s: RV-4 Advantages: faster, sexier, better visibility, better acrobatics due to pilot sitting on center line, less expensive to build, and more fun to stand beside at fly-ins. Disadvantages: cramped rear seat, less baggage capacity, less range. RV-6s Advantages: more comfort for passenger/co-pilot, tremendous baggage capacity (two lawn chairs no problem), room for IFR panel, more range. Float conversion already available for the -6. Disadvantages: less visibility to the right, looks less like a P-51, more expensive kit, pilot sits offset to one side or the other. Comments: I understand the float kit for the RV-4 is in the works. The range can be equalized by building RV-6 tanks on the RV-4. The baggage differential can be reduced, but not eliminated, by installing storage lockers in the RV-4 wing tips. Of course, storage lockers in the RV-6 tips restores the differential. Bottom line is that the RV-6 is more convenient for camping, and more comfortable for the passenger, but the RV-4 is more fun for the pilot to fly due to the tandem seating. A serious question to consider is how big is your spouse, whether or not your spouse will be happy riding in the back, and if your spouse is a pilot, whether or not you will be happy riding in the back. I have only flown in the back seat of an RV-4, and much prefer the right seat of the RV- 6 to the back seat of the RV-4. But I fly a Champion 7ECA (Citabria) taildragger regularly, and much prefer the tandem seating arrangement to side-by-side due to the differences in visibility and the feel of the airplane. I really like being able to see the ground equally on both sides. In a side-by-side airplane, I always feel like I'm missing something. Most of my flying will be sport flying, I have always traveled light, and my wife is not a pilot. I will not have to fly in the back seat of my RV-4. So I chose the RV-4. RV-6 vs. RV-6A: RV-6 Advantages: the tail-dragger looks better, is lighter and slightly faster, and is cheaper to build. The float conversion is already available. Disadvantages: the tail-dragger is harder to land. RV-6A Advantages: the trike is easier to land, and has better visibility taxiing. Disadvantages: the trike is a tad heavier, a tad slower, and can be mistaken from a distance for a Grumman product. Comments: I don't believe the RV-6 can be used on appreciably rougher fields than the -6A, at least not with the standard sized main wheels. I have never landed my Citabria on a field an RV-6A could not handle. I don't think rough fields are an issue here, but I am no bush pilot. I have flown in both the -6 and the -6A, and I can't tell the difference in flight. I can sure tell the difference taxiing and landing: the -6A is easier to land, and has better taxiing visibility at slow speeds. I think the major advantage of the -6 over the -6A is looks. The -6 is no more fun to fly than the -6A unless you like the challenge of landing the taildragger. If you haven't flown taildraggers in the past, you could transition very quickly into the RV-6A, but will need some serious training before you fly the RV-4 or RV-6. Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: Claudio's dilemma From: "J. Rion Bourgeois" <compuserve.com!71311.2116(at)matronics.com> Date: 05 Aug 94 18:07:30 EDT ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 06, 1994
From: gratclif(at)magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gregory W. Ratcliff)
Subject: Over or Under the skin on the Elevator
The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled). Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives? I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure. Thanks, greg Gregory W. Ratcliff Columbus, Ohio ICBM In the Air N1697X On the Air NZ8R ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au
Date: Aug 06, 1994
Subject: O-360 Engines - Where do I buy in the US!
Hi All, I have a mate here in Canberra who is interested in buying a reconditioned O-360 for his RV6. Here in Australia they "are as scarce as flaming hen's teeth!!" Do any of you have any name's and addresses for dealers/reconditioners that we could call? Thanks John Morrissey RV4 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Aug 08, 1994
Subject: Re: Over or Under the skin on the Elevator
>The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the >skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled). > >Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives? > >I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure. Greg: Everybody around here (Van's home county) seems to put it under the skin and it looks fine if the rivets are carefully placed so you don't get any noticeable distortion of the skin. I have seen some that look good and some that look bad. There does not appear to be any difference in structural integrity. By the way, if you are a fanatic about pop-rivets, you can avoid using them where the plans say (the ones that go through the skin and the rear-inboard corner of the strap/cap by first riveting the strap to the skin with only those rivets and then inserting the rest of the assembled skeleton into this assembly. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Aug 08, 1994
Subject: Re: Doubler blues, etc...
> The doubler as supplied (36") isn't long >enough to cover the nose ribs, with about a 3/4 to 1" shortage. Dave: I have thought about this for a while and still can't see it as a problem. Using the rivet spacing in the plans did not make one fall into the gap, so there is no distortion of the outer skin where the doubler thang stops (as long as you make the gap equal on top and bottom). It also doesn't seem to be a structural issue. You said you had trouble with misdrilling this piece. Is there anything you can say about this that might be worth having in the instructions? Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Oshkosh, RV-6B(T), Observations
Well, this is my first post since my first trip to Oshkosh this year. Unbelievable. Anyway, I thought I would pass on those things that I observed relating to RVs. -There were something like 135 RVs registered as of saturday, according to Van. I had a look at most of them. Most of them showed very nice workmanship, a few were outstanding, and one or two were, well, I don't know if I would fly in them. -I had a ride in Van's blue -6A. My first RV ride. Fantastic! Handles like a dream. Fingertip control. Never even touched the rudder pedals! Too bad, I should have just to get a feel for the rudder. The takeoff run seemed to last about 5 seconds (160 hp, CS prop). It was over all too soon. -I talked to a few people about the sliding canopy, and I think I'll be staying with the bubble type on my 6A. One of Van's people mentioned that the breeze on the ground with the canopy open is actually too much - the prop slipstream tends to blast in your face and send your hat flying. In addition, I live in a cold climate where effective sealing against the cold is more important than staying cool on the ground in the summer. (I flew a 1600 mile round trip last xmas in a 172 and used the better part of a roll of duct tape trying to seal all the air leaks - there is no such thing as a "little" air leak at -20 degrees). I also hadn't realized that with the sliding canopy you not only have the canopy frome obscuring your vision, but you have a vertical tube right in the middle of your windshield. No Thanks. -Regarding the 6 vs 6A argument, I had been planning on building a 6, but I think it now will be a 6A. The reasons: Well, the RV people I talked to, including Van's staff, suggested that forward visibility in the 6 was less than ideal. I found the visibility in the 6A to be adequate, but I wouldn't want to give up any more. It seems that the cockpit sill is high and the seating position rather low compared to production airplanes. And although I would like to learn to fly taildraggers anyway, I think that I would rather have the crosswind capability of a tri-gear for my personal airplane. Besides, the 6A looks great too! In fact it is easily the best looking fixed tri gear plane out there, beating the Glasair FT and Lancair ES by a long shot. -Speaking of Glasairs, I compared the reported owners cruise speeds of the Glasair fixed trigear vs the RV-6As with the same engine/prop. The RV gives up MAYBE 5 mph, if anything, while the glasair has a 10 mph higher stall speed. So much for the idea of "speedy" composites. Those Lancairs sure do look nice though (just pray the engine doesn't quit). -Vans comments on the RV-6B (which is actually the 6T apparantly): It has a the new molded canopy which is now being sold (and has great looking optics) and a formed aluminum windshield fairing strip, which will not be offered in the kits. The steel leaf spring gear is 4-5 pounds heavier per gear leg, and will definitely increase drag, although performance figures are not yet available. I think the steel-tube-with-fairing stock gear is still the way to go. The square horizontal stabilizer is a simplification, production status undetermined. To paraphrase Van:" We got tired of answering questions about how to jig the various angles in the present tapered stabilizer." Yuck! Just when I was hoping for a tapered wing. What next, a square vertical stab? Cmon Van, good looks are the reason many of us bought your airplane, so sell Frank's instructions instead of redesigning it! The slotted flaps were designed to lower the stall speed in an effort to meet a certification requirement which apparently is no longer required, so I doubt if we'll ever see them again. The new counterbalanced rudder is apparently over-balanced and is too light on the pedals according to the guy who flew the plane to Osh from the factory. -One of the questions raised at Van's forum was whether a 4 seat airplane was in the works. Van replied that they are looking into it but are unsure what the market desires - a 180 HP Cherokee-like machine or a 300 HP screamer. At any rate, he does not feel that he could retain the flying qualities of the RVs in a 4 place airplane, so he seemed reluctant to do it. -Factoids: a new RV is being flown EVERY 3.5 DAYS Vans is shipping the equivalent of 500 kits per year at this time. Well, I've rambled on enough. Sorry I didn't meet any RV-listers but being my first time at OSH, I was overwhelmed and trying to cram in as much as I could. Next year. Cheers, Curt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Riveting Rudder and Elevator Spars
What is required to rivet to rivet the spar to the skins nicely? I have seen plans for a back riveting tool. I don't think the Avery tool works, does it? I would need a bigger yoke to do it with my squeezer. Would a 3" yoke do it? Is it worth the $70 i.e. will I ever use it again? Other comments on tools: At OSH I bought the new "best of RVator" book. For $15 it is a must have. It goes back to 1980 and is loaded with good stuff. In fact many of the questions that I have asked here on the net were answered in this book. It covers flight testing, modifications, tools etc. I bought the pneumatic cleco tool from US Tool. (I think it was US Tool) The price was $70. I had been getting a sore hand from clecoing. I find the tool to be more cumbersome than the standard cleco pliers, but it is easier on my hand. I now use the pliers to insert the clecos as I drill, and then use the air tool to remove tham all at once when I have finished drilling the skin. I glad I have it, but it doesn't work quite as well as I had hoped. The major drawback is that it you have to remove the cleco from the tool using your other hand, the cleco doesn't just fall out like with a cleco plier. I would say it takes about 3-4 seconds to remove a cleco with this tool (as compared to the 3 clecoes PER SECOND claimed for another, $220 cleco tool). I also bought the "V" type deburring tool from Avery. I don't like it much. I prefer the swivel tool. I talked briefly with Mr. Orendorff (the RV construction video guy) and asked him how his SECOND RV-6A was coming. "Slowly", he replied, "I keep making NEW mistakes!". Made me feel a bit better. Curt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Over or under the skin on the elevator
Gregory W. Ratcliff wrote: > > The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the > skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled). > > Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives? > > I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure. > Oh I don't know, I think it looks just fine UNDER, as called out in the instructions. I don't think it would make any difference either way structurally. A couple of tips here: 1) If you put the strap UNDER the skin, make a u-shaped relief notch in the skin where it overlaps the strap, maybe 1/4" deep by 3/16" wide. This alleviates stress there and has a more finished look. 2) When you are ready for final assembly of the skin to the skeleton, rivet the strap to the skin with solid rivets BEFORE slipping the skin over the skeleton. This avoids using pop rivets there. I got this from Frank, it's in his instructions. Randall Henderson RV-6X ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmccalli(at)ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Randy S. McCallister)
Subject: RVator
Date: Aug 08, 1994
Where can I purchase a copy of the RVator Curt Reimer mentioned? Sounds interesting. - Randy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 08, 1994
From: "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Subject: I got PLANS!
I've got plans!! RV-6/6A #23687. I also have three cleco pliers, three bucking bars, a couple of coutersink stops and countersinks, and one cleco that Don Wentz gave me. Can I call myself a builder now? (Anyone see that turbine powered Glasair? Where do I get the turbine power kit for the -6? Better increase the size of the fuel tanks, too, at 20gph at 60% power!) John H. Henderson Department of Electrical Engineering Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Aug 08, 1994
Subject: Re: Riveting Rudder and Elevator Spars
>What is required to rivet to rivet the spar to the skins nicely? I have >seen plans for a back riveting tool. I don't think the Avery tool works, >does it? I would need a bigger yoke to do it with my squeezer. Would a 3" >yoke do it? Is it worth the $70 i.e. will I ever use it again? There are a few rivets on the elevators that you cannot reach with a 3" yoke. Actually, it is easy to do a good job of driving these rivets with a gun and bar. On a more general note, everybody has to find their own preference with squeezers. Some people cannot make them work at all or feel they can do just as well with a gun. Some people use them whenever they can but only with a 1" yoke because they keep bending rivets over when they try to use a 3". Some people such as myself use a 3" yoke for everything possible. Some squeezers are more awkward to handle than others (mine is the cheapest one I could find and is fairly light; it is however marginal for doing 1/8" rivets). Some people are just better with tools than others. If you don't have any trouble getting good rivets every time with your 1" yoke you will probably be happy you bought a 3" yoke. Otherwise, forget it. The back riveting tool works good but will take considerable effort to make unless you have access to a machine shop. You will really appreciate it when you try to drive the last one or two rivets near the trailing edge on the ends of the elevators and ailerons. No, the Avery tool won't do it. >I also bought the "V" type deburring tool from Avery. I don't like it >much. I prefer the swivel tool. The "V" tool is just for the outer edges of straight-cut sheets, and it does work well for that. You just have to get used to how much pressure to apply and the angle to hold it at so you wind up with cleanly-bevelled edges rather than a lot of burrs. >I talked briefly with Mr. Orendorff (the RV construction video guy) and >asked him how his SECOND RV-6A was coming. "Slowly", he replied, "I keep >making NEW mistakes!". Made me feel a bit better. Now you know why some people build four or five RV's. Frank J. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: RVator
Date: Aug 08, 1994
> > Where can I purchase a copy of the RVator Curt Reimer mentioned? Sounds > interesting. > > > - Randy > Howdy, I happen to have the info right here. Curt was a little off on the price. It's $25.95 The book "All those Old RV-Ators" is 230 pages of very good stuff. It is a compendium of the old RVators. It includes tips, how-to's, and diagrams from the old RV-Ators. I bought one, only to find out that I had one sent to me when I arrived home from Oshkosh (I edit the "Rocky Mountain RVator") I have all of the old RV-Ators and I feel this will be more useful. First it has been retyped, and laid out in a more easy to read format. There are sections i.e. Tail building, Wings, Fuselage, even flight testing. It's complete up to March of 94. Also, all of the info from the RV-Ator is Not in there, there have been some tips that have become the factory preferred method of construction, so they are deleted. I also like the method of binding, its the plastic multi ring type, allows you to open to a page, flop the book around and keep it on the page you want. All in all it's a good book, nothing new in it IF you have all of the old RV-Ators. But it's worth considering for your building library. How to get it. From Avery or direct from the publisher/author. "All those Old RV-Ators" Easy Publishing 328 Luscombe Dr Los Lunas, NM 87031 (505) 865-3466 $25.95 he takes Plastic too, so you can order by phone. Include card number and expiration date. No I'm not getting a take, but mention my name anyway, he did send me a book. Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Best of RVator
I got my book from Avery Tools at OSH. There may be other sources. Does anyone have Avery's phone number and address handy? Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Best of RVator
Avery's number is 817-439-8400 Randall RV-6X ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frank(at)SSD.intel.com
Date: Aug 09, 1994
Subject: Re: Best of RVator
>Does anyone have Avery's phone number and address handy? > >Curt Reimer 817-439-8400 Avery Enterprises 2290 W. Hicks Rd. Hanger 54-1 Ft. Worth, TX 76131 fax 817-439-8402 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Oshkosh, RV-6B(T), Observations
Curt Reimer wrote (in part): > The square horizontal stabilizer [on the RV-6B] is a simplification, > production status undetermined. To paraphrase Van:" We got tired of answering > questions about how to jig the various angles in the present tapered > stabilizer." Yuck! Just when I was hoping for a tapered wing. What next, a > square vertical stab? Cmon Van, good looks are the reason many of us bought > your airplane, so sell Frank's instructions instead of redesigning it! Shhh, don't say that! Just purchase your tail kit before they make the change, and a few years from now people will only have to take one look to know you have one of the "cool" original design RVs. :-) > The slotted flaps were designed to lower the stall speed in an effort to > meet a certification requirement which apparently is no longer required, > so I doubt if we'll ever see them again. Really? I think that would be too bad. It seems to me that as long as the design doesn't add much extra drag or weight, it would be hard to argue against a mod that lowers the stall speed. Apparently Eustace Bowhay was _very_ interested in the slotted flaps since float planes generally depend on them to lower the stall speed and help get up off the water as quickly as possible. Assuming the design doesn't add much extra drag or weight, I'd like to see them offered as an option, especially as I intend to put my plane on floats some day. > -One of the questions raised at Van's forum was whether a 4 seat airplane > was in the works. Van replied that they are looking into it but are unsure > what the market desires - a 180 HP Cherokee-like machine or a 300 HP > screamer. At any rate, he does not feel that he could retain the flying > qualities of the RVs in a 4 place airplane, so he seemed reluctant to do it. Again, too bad. I would think if Van would build a 4 place with the same "Total Performance" design philosophy he used in his previous designs it would be a real winner. It wouldn't have to be the fastest thing in the sky, nor the best in the bush. Just a good, solid, reasonably fast, reasonably short take-off and landing 4 place machine. Randall RV-6X ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1994
From: David.Rodenhiser(at)Corp.Sun.COM (David Rodenhiser)
Subject: add to RV list
Matt, Was referred to this list by Mark Richardson (richards(at)sofkin.ca). Could you add me to the RV list? Thanks, Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1994
From: hansen(at)risc.austin.ibm.com (William Hansen)
Subject: registration
subscribe rv-list hansen(at)risc.austin.ibm.com I'm considering building yet another rv. Thanks, __Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 09, 1994
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: RV Mailing list
Matt: Please add me to the RV mailing list. Thanks, Best Regards, Dave Barnhart barnhart(at)crl.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EdWisch(at)aol.com
Date: Aug 10, 1994
Subject: z
Matt - Please sign me up. Ed Wischmeyer RV-4 N629EW (for sale) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 1994
From: Andrews Peter F <andrewpf%geds(at)mhsgate.salem.ge.com>
Subject: SUBSCRIBE
Please subscribe me to the RV builders list. Thanks Pete Andrews andrews_pf(at)salem.ge.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Aug 10, 1994
Subject: New subscribers
Hey! Where did all these new subscribers come from?! Somebody let the cat out of the bag at Oshkosh or something? Good to see all the new people. Has Matt asked you to introduce yourselves yet? John Henderson Dept. of Electrical Engineering Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: RE: New subscribers
Date: Aug 10, 1994
---------- From: John H Henderson Subject: New subscribers Date: Wednesday, August 10, 1994 12:08PM >Hey! Where did all these new subscribers come from?! >Somebody let the cat out of the bag at Oshkosh or something? >Good to see all the new people. Has Matt asked you to introduce >yourselves yet? >John Henderson >Dept. of Electrical Engineering >Auburn University Hi Folks, I'm guilty. The question as to whether there was an RV list was asked on rec.aviation.homebuilt so I said "Yup", and gave them the address. I've even had a few messages directly to me from people on the fence as to what homebuilt to build and why. (You can guess my reply ;-) Mark ************************************************************************ * Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * * Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * * VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * * FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * ************************************************************************ * RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * * EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * ************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________ for rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: Deene Ogden <deene(at)ibmoto.com>
Date: Aug 10, 1994
Subject: subscribe
Please add me to the rv mailing list. Thanks, Deene. Email: deene(at)ibmoto.com ________________________________________________________________________________ for rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Aug 10, 1994
From: Bill Downey <billd(at)ibmoto.com>
Matt, Please add me to the RV mailing list. | Bill Downey International Business Machines | | SOMERSET Design Center | | billd(at)ibmoto.com (512) 795-7357 | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 1994
From: dougm(at)physio.wa.com (Doug Medema)
Subject: changing email address
Matt: Due to the sale of my company, my email address will be going through a few gyrations. Please change it to dougm(at)physio.wa.com' for now. Thanks. Doug M. RV-6A a-building! P.S. to all: I have the letter written and check made out to order my wing kit! I'll drop it off at the Post Office tonight. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 10, 1994
From: rab(at)csg.lbl.gov (Robert Belshe)
Subject: Add request
Please add me to the rv mailing list. Thanks. Bob Belshe ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: New RV-Listers
Is the RV-list mentioned in the rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ? Perhaps it should be so that new rec.aviators will know about it right away. Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 1994
From: Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Autopilots in RVs
Has anybody been thinking of putting an autopilot into their RVs? I'm quite close to skinning my wings and am thinking that this might be the time to sort this out. I hadn't been planning to put in an electric aileron trim, but maybe I should? The issue really has come to a head now as a friend of mine has recently replaced the Cessna Auto (wing leveller) from his 1979 Turbo Skylane RG with an S-Tec. He has all the bits including DG with Bug, and servo. I know all these to be working fine as I regularly fly this machine. Opinions very welcome, Ray Belbin 6A - tail done, working on wings Australia. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: New RV-Listers
> Is the RV-list mentioned in the rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ? Perhaps it > should be so that new rec.aviators will know about it right away. > > Curt Reimer Sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's rv-list-request(at)matronics.com, ^^^^^^^^ right Matt? (to avoid all these requests getting distributed to the whole list) Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pilgrimage to Oregon
Date: Aug 11, 1994
From: bill(at)sfu.ca
About every two years or so, my better half and I travel to Corevalis Oregon to visit old friends, have a small re-union, and get back in touch with a group of people who inhabited 'Old Peak Road' in the late 60s. I was not part of the original group (my wife was), but have been doing this for the past 10 years or so. Corevalis is slightly west of Albany, which is about 1 hr south of Portland in I5. We did this last weekend, and on the way back north to Vancouver, BC, I dropped my wife off at the Portland airport from where she commenced a business trip. Needless to say, the rest of my trip home was a guy's trip, and the first stop was Van's. It took me about 30 minutes to drive from the Portland Airport to Van's in the 'one horse town' of North Plains. I had three things on my todo list: 1) Purchase an electric elevator trim kit, 2) Put a deposit on the -4 Wings 3) Demo ride in a -4 I had called in advance, and was told that weather permitting, the demo ride should't be a problem. Another fellow had pulled up at the same time I did. He was driving a large super clean, white truck with Georgia plates. I assumed the truck was full of concert sound equipment, but it was actually full of race car. I wish I had noted his name, but as it turned out he was also completing the empanage of an RV-4 and was on the same kind of mission as I was. Ten inutes later we were at the Sunset (?) airstrip and the RV-4 (s/n 2) was being pushed out, washed off, and pre-flighted. Bill (Benidict I think) did the honours. This was my first RV ride. There are several RVs around my home town, and the owners are very generous of their time, but most are nervous of passenger rides for liability reasons. Bill did a great job. The takeoff was about what I expected. Cruise was also about what I expected. I wasn't expecting to do a loop or roll, but when he did them I was surprised at the smoothness and apparent ease. Handling and stick pressure was near perfect. I haven't flown for more than 10 years now. Most of my time was Aeronca 7DC Champ hours, and although I can't really compare a 7DC to an RV-4, I was pleased that the RV wasn't twitchy, or overly sensitive. I was surprised how slippery the RV is with the nose pointed down. It accelerated *very* fast. Bill let me do the approach, but sitting in the back seat I couldn't see the runway after the flaps were down,and airspeed was down to a bit below 80 indicated and the nose was up. Bill did the landing which was trickier than I expected. The springy landing gear seems to bounce you back into the air, and the machine will fly with a fairly severe nose up attitude. In the Champ, if you touch the tail first, the mains follow abruptly, the angle of attack decreases, and you are on the ground. Not necessairly so in the RV. If the mains bounce you back up, you could be flying again. This is NOT a complaint, just a 'first timer's' observation -- and perhaps an incorrect one. Between the fellow from Georgia, and myself, there were two really big grins. What a trip! Bill (RV-4; Deposit on wings, working on rudder and electric elevator trim) -- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: Autopilots in RVs
Date: Aug 11, 1994
> > > Has anybody been thinking of putting an autopilot into their RVs? > I'm quite close to skinning my wings and am thinking that this might be > the time to sort this out. > > I hadn't been planning to put in an electric aileron trim, but > maybe I should? > > The issue really has come to a head now as a friend of mine has > recently replaced the Cessna Auto (wing leveller) from his 1979 Turbo > Skylane RG with an S-Tec. He has all the bits including DG with Bug, and > servo. I know all these to be working fine as I regularly fly this > machine. > > Opinions very welcome, > > Ray Belbin > 6A - tail done, working on wings > Australia. > > Howdy, It is my intention to put in a wing leveler/ single axis auto pilot from Navaid Devices. It's a gyro based instrument that fits into your turn coordinator hole. Has a ball on the bottom, and an electronic indicator for the normal T/B mech indicator. I have heard from other RV drivers that they have not been able to tumble the gyro (Navaid makes their own gyros) doing acro. The gyro drives a geared servo motor that attaches to the bar going between control sticks on a RV-6 and I haven't inquired about RV-4/3s where the servo is located, maybe the wing??? Anyhow the gaered servo pushes/ pulls on the control tubes. The servo has a clutch so you can override it if an emergency happens and you don't have time or presence of mind to disengage it. The controller is housed inside of the quasi T/B indicator. You have a choice of: do nothing; level wings; the adjustment to level wings can be used to induce a bank, right or left; or using the CDI output of your Nav radio, loran, gps to track a course. The price with RV installation hardware is a mere? $1200.00... Now the advantage is you don't have to add trim tabs or motors to the wing, and it can be added after the plane is flying. I have talked to some RV owners with auto pilots They all like them, S-tec and the Navaid seem most popular. In the western US we can get some pretty bumpy air from the thermals. I have found the RVs much less tiring to control in thermals than say my Bonanza. The stick forces are much less, and they are more precise on the RV than the Bonanza. The RV folks that use the auto pilot/wing leveler claim that the ride is easier with the AP on. Also be aware that the pitch trim is sensitive on the RV-6. A 1/16 turn on the trim knob can make a big difference in pitch. I would 1) make the horn on the trim tab longer. 2) Definately use The MATRONICS (the folks that make this mailer possible) Governor if using electric pitch trim. OR BOTH... Final note Dean Hall, EAA director and RV-4 builder Has both rudder and aileron mac servo trim. He says, "I don't use the rudder trim any more, just leave it on one setting. The wing trim is ok but I wouldn't do it again." Van's spring biased trim seems to work for the 4's and 6's. Probably adds some to the control input, but unless told you wouldn't notice it. Update on offsetting the verticle stab to the left of center. Dean Hall offset his to the left 1/4" he told me at Oshkosh that he talked to a couple of folks that had offset theirs to the left by 3/8" and that seemed to work just fine. Now if you do offset the vert stab you will have to make your own fuselage, horizonal/vert stabilizer fairing. (Of course I have heard of only one in 20 of Van's fairing working, most folks end up making their own) The address for Navaid Devices, 641 market St., Chattanooga, TN 37405 (615) 267-3311 $1200.00 see ad pg 84 May "Kitplanes" For article on Dean Halls RV-4 See pg 78 May 94 "Sport Aviation" I am not connected with Navaid Devices, materially, technically, manually, or electronically. Just spreading the word. My $.02 off (for Now) Doug Bloomberg Without a job, just reading email and working on the RV (with a vacation to OSH)RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: help to get a Canadian RV builder on the list...
Date: Aug 11, 1994
Howdy, I recieved this from a RV builder in Canada that I met at Van's Banquet. Matt, can we add him to the list? Thanks Doug Bloomberg RV-6A > From <(at)mail.uunet.ca:terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com> Wed Aug 10 14:13:33 1994 > To: dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu > Subject: mailing list > From: terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com (Terrance Jantzi) > Message-Id: <60.61570.104.0C1A9CBE(at)canrem.com> > Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 14:57:00 -0400 > Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) > > Doug, > > Sorry for bugging you twice in one day. I have tried to subscribe to the > RV mailing list but need some more info. The BBS that provides my > internet service does not allow private subscriptions. I have to submit > a request to them and they might carry it as a public resource. > > Anyway I need the 1: full name of the internet mailing list > 2: the request address (you gave me that) > 3: submissions address > > Thanks. > > Terry > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: Re: New RV-Listers
Date: Aug 11, 1994
---------- From: randall Subject: Re: New RV-Listers Date: Thursday, August 11, 1994 10:18AM >Sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's rv-list-request(at)matronics.com, > ^^^^^^^^ >right Matt? (to avoid all these requests getting distributed to the whole >list) As Homer Simpson would say, DOH! |-( (thats supposed to be Homer with closed eyes!) Mark ************************************************************************ * Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * * Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. * * VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont * * FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * ************************************************************************ * RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * * EAA# - 367635 DoD# - ????? * ************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re:..props
>2) OK - what is the net wisdom on available wood props? In other words, >whose should I buy and why? > Surely somebody in this august body of knowledge must have some opinions on the above matter... Thanks for any wisdom on the subject. Richard Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246 Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 FORE Systems 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 11, 1994
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Autopilots in RVs
On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Ray Belbin wrote: > Has anybody been thinking of putting an autopilot into their RVs? > I'm quite close to skinning my wings and am thinking that this might be > the time to sort this out. I don't remember the name of the company (I have their brochure at home) but they make a nice wing leveler/auto pilot for homebuilts which was written up in Kitplanes a few months ago. I had a look at the unit at Oshkosh, and it looked pretty good. The basic details: The unit replaces a standard sized turn co-ordinator in the panel. The panel controls are a function switch, an aileron trim knob and a turn knob (for making turns with the autopilot on) as well as an electronic LED turn rate indicator and a conventional skid/slip indicator ball. The servo mechanism is designed to connect directly to the aileron control cables or push pull rod. Whatever aileron trim sysem you install will be completely independant of the auto pilot system, so you can use electric, manual or none at all, if you wish. When the unit is OFF, the servo is declutched and swivels freely. It doesn't seem to impede control movement in any way. When the unit is in wing leveler mode, you trim it level using the TRIM knob. You use the TURN knob to make course corrections, etc. (The manufacturer claimed to fly a standard circuit using only the TURN knob.) When set to the NAV setting, the unit is coupled to a GPS or LORAN and will fly a preset course. I don't know the details, but apparantly only 2 wires are used for the connection. You can override the unit at any time in flight; it will automatically declutch the servo. This autopilot is NOT intended for IFR or low altitude flight. The servo is much faster responding than a certified autopilot. This makes it work better for cross country flying in turbulence, but it also means that an autopilot malfunction causing a control-hard over could happen so quickly that you could lose several thousand feet before recovery (In VFR!) Looking at the quality of construction, it looks fine but by no means is it ultra rugged or bulletproof. They suggest a minimum gyro motor life of 100 hours or so. Price is around $1200. I plan to buy one, or something like it, when the time comes. Incidentally, this company has an altitude-hold autopilot also in the works. It will be an independant system. I will dig up the brochure and give you the address. Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: ..props
Date: Aug 11, 1994
> > > >2) OK - what is the net wisdom on available wood props? In other words, > >whose should I buy and why? > > > > Surely somebody in this august body of knowledge must have some opinions on > the above matter... > > Thanks for any wisdom on the subject. > > Richard > > Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 > Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246 > Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408 > FORE Systems > 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com > Bethesda, MD 20817 > > > Howdy Richard, Folks around here are taking off their props (Pacesetter, Rheim, Warnke) and putting on Aymar-Demuth (410) 461-4329 props. They are located in your neck of the woods. Ellicott City, MD I talked to one of the fellows at the RV Forum in Frederick a couple years ago. Seemed interesting, has an imbedded metal strip on the leading edge, thats covered with an epoxy. He measures the pitch via the chord line of the props airfoil. Also remember they having their own prop extention which has a larger surface where the prop attaches. Here 'bouts RV, Thorp, Sidwinder, and Mustang flyers have switched over. They all report faster cruise at same fuel burn rate as previous. Even old Larry Vetterman is taking his constant speed off his RV-4 and putting on a Aymar-Demuth Prop. So it seems the best buy right now, only problem is they are backlogged. So you could borrow a prop till your A-D comes Take care, Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: paulf(at)eos.ncsu.edu
Subject: subscribe
Date: Aug 11, 1994
Please add my subscription to this list. I've been thinking of forming a partnership to buy a used RV-6 or similar. (Though the RV-4 is nice its baggage capacity with 2 people seems a little on the low side.) From what I've seen so far, it looks like a terrific plane! Any potential partners in the Raleigh area out there who are interested? Any random thoughts on this idea also appreciated. Thanks and Regards, Paul Franzon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu (Jim McDonald)
Mark, Please put me on the RV mailing list. Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
From: <yourloginnameonmcopn1(at)lesol1.dseg.ti.com>(at)mcopn1.dseg.ti.com (<Your Name>)
Subject: RV Mailing List
Date: Aug 12, 1994
Please add me to the RV mailing list. Brad Fennell 402 Gettysburg Mesquite, Tx 75149 (214) 288-0076 email: fenn(at)msg.ti.com Building RV-4 - Empennage complete, wing kit should arrive 9/5/94 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Tools to buy ....
Hi RV folks, For once I was ahead of the pack!!! I bought a SmartLevel, an electronic, digital "bubble" level, one week before Tony Bingelis reccommended it in his latest Sport Aviation column. It is as good as advertised, and is accurate, even when dropped (guess how I found out?). I bought the Sensor Module (about $80) and the 2 foot frame (about $20). I have been using the two foot measure resting on top of an old 6 foot Stanley spirit level, and the difference is amazing. No parallax error, no interpretation of bubbles about zero, and EXACT readout of angle to 0.1 degrees, or 0.1% slope ( +/- 0.012 inches over the 24 inch length). It can easily be re-calibrated at any time. The interesting thing was that the old spirit level had 3 indicating vials, and none of them agreed!! I am finding it excellent to set up my fuselage jig, and am going out now (lunch hour) to buy a 6 foot frame (about $25). The Sensor Module is interchangeable between frame in the more expensive "Pro" model. A 2 foot, non-interchangeable sensor version is about $50. In calling various harware stores and home supply places in LA, I found the stock to vary, some carried frames only, and some carried the sensor module, and were out of stock of frames. Only Orchard Supply Hardware (new to our area) mentioned that there is now a $20 rebate offer from the manufacturer, so if you buy one now, get the rebate coupon!! Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ... levelling away!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: Nigel Kirlew <anto(at)gate.net>
Subject: Join list
I'd like to join the RV email list. Thanks, Nigel Kirlew ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)ch2m1.attmail.com
Date: Aug 12, 1994
Subject: Silliness
Has anyone ever thought of this? a. Some people wish Van would build a 4-place machine. b. The RV-4 kinda looks like a P-51 (even more when you edit-out the gear on that bitmap so that it looks like a retract!) c. Remeber the twin Mustangs? How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit.... I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight... Steve Kimura CH2M Hill Corvallis OR skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com (503) 757-8507 x5356 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden)
Subject: Tools to buy ...
>Hi RV folks, > For once I was ahead of the pack!!! I bought a SmartLevel, >an electronic, digital "bubble" level, one week before Tony Bingelis >reccommended it in his latest Sport Aviation column. > > It is as good as advertised, and is accurate, even when >dropped (guess how I found out?). I bought the Sensor Module (about $80) >and the 2 foot frame (about $20). I have been using the two foot measure >resting on top of an old 6 foot Stanley spirit level, and the difference is >amazing. No parallax error, no interpretation of bubbles about zero, and >EXACT readout of angle to 0.1 degrees, or 0.1% slope ( +/- 0.012 inches >over the 24 inch length). It can easily be re-calibrated at any time. The >interesting thing was that the old spirit level had 3 indicating vials, and >none of them agreed!! > > I am finding it excellent to set up my fuselage jig, and am >going out now (lunch hour) to buy a 6 foot frame (about $25). The Sensor >Module is interchangeable between frame in the more expensive "Pro" model. >A 2 foot, non-interchangeable sensor version is about $50. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is the one I bought, after two normal aluminum frame levels that couldn't be trusted. Everything that Gil says above is true! It makes life much simpler. Wish I'd had it for my horiz stab. > In calling various harware stores and home supply places in >LA, I found the stock to vary, some carried frames only, and some carried >the sensor module, and were out of stock of frames. Only Orchard Supply >Hardware (new to our area) mentioned that there is now a $20 rebate offer >from the manufacturer, so if you buy one now, get the rebate coupon!! > > Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 ... levelling away!! I've seen them regularly at Home Depot and Builder's Square. Dave Bonorden ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Silliness
This idea was floated as an April Fool's joke in the RVator a couple of years ago. Actually it would make a great one-of-a-kind plane for someone with too much money and time to build for Oshkosh. Fitting dual controls would be a problem however... Richard >Has anyone ever thought of this? > >a. Some people wish Van would build a 4-place machine. >b. The RV-4 kinda looks like a P-51 (even more when you edit-out the gear > on that bitmap so that it looks like a retract!) >c. Remeber the twin Mustangs? > >How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit.... > >I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight... > > >Steve Kimura >CH2M Hill >Corvallis OR >skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com >(503) 757-8507 x5356 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Avery back riveting plate
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: bill(at)sfu.ca
I purchased the Avery arm, dimpling dies, rivet sets, the back riveting plate and a few other odds and ends. I had the stuff drop shipped to a friend in the USA, and brought it home last weekend. My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but it isn't very smooth. How smooth is smooth enough? I find that when I use the avery back riveting set in my rivet gun, on 3/32 flush rivets with the factory head against the plate, the pattern on the plate gets transferred to the rivet head and the surrounding sheet metal (< 1/16 inch around the rivet). It doesn't look right to me. Has anyone else had this happen? The thing is so heavy its probably not worth returning -- especially across the border. Am I being too picky? -- Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silliness
On Fri, 12 Aug 1994 ch2m1.attmail.com!CH2MHILL!CVA!SKimura(at)matronics.com wrote: > > How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit.... > > I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight... > > > Steve Kimura I think that's been done. (In mind, anyway.) I understand that's what the fictional RV-8 was. I saw an RV-8 mentioned in Randall's RVator index, and wondered what it was. When I was at Van's, I asked Andy, like an idiot, what the RV-8 was. He explained to me that it was a joke. (He was pointing out the remains of the RV-5 to me at that time.) Why did you guys let me go ask a dumb question like that? John H. Henderson Department of Electrical Engineering Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Silliness
I'd love to see someone (else) do the P-38 thing with a couple of RV-4s. Funny as it was when it was first "announced", it still seems like it would be a pretty cool airplane (minus the Apache retractable gear and radios... :-) > This idea was floated as an April Fool's joke in the RVator a couple of > years ago. > > Actually it would make a great one-of-a-kind plane for someone with too > much money and time to build for Oshkosh. > > Fitting dual controls would be a problem however... > > Richard > > > >Has anyone ever thought of this? > > > >a. Some people wish Van would build a 4-place machine. > >b. The RV-4 kinda looks like a P-51 (even more when you edit-out the gear > > on that bitmap so that it looks like a retract!) > >c. Remeber the twin Mustangs? > > > >How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit.... > > > >I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight... > > > > > >Steve Kimura > >CH2M Hill > >Corvallis OR > >skimura(at)cva.msmail.ch2m.com > >(503) 757-8507 x5356 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1994
From: Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Silliness
Tsk! Tsk! Don't forget the arrestor hook! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (A previous suggestion from another RV-Netter) Ray Belbin's 2 rivets worth! > I'd love to see someone (else) do the P-38 thing with a couple of RV-4s. > Funny as it was when it was first "announced", it still seems like it would > be a pretty cool airplane (minus the Apache retractable gear and radios... :-) > > > This idea was floated as an April Fool's joke in the RVator a couple of > > years ago. > > > > Actually it would make a great one-of-a-kind plane for someone with too > > much money and time to build for Oshkosh. > > > > Fitting dual controls would be a problem however... > > > > Richard > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 12, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Silliness
John, Don't trust any RVator drawings date 4-1-XX !! ..... Gil Alexander >> >> How about a Twin RV-4!!! 2 fuse kits, 1.5 wing kits, RV-6B tail kit.... >> >> I think I'll take that bitmap home to my photo-retouching program tonight... >> >> >> Steve Kimura > >I think that's been done. (In mind, anyway.) I understand that's >what the fictional RV-8 was. I saw an RV-8 mentioned in Randall's >RVator index, and wondered what it was. When I was at Van's, >I asked Andy, like an idiot, what the RV-8 was. He explained >to me that it was a joke. (He was pointing out the remains >of the RV-5 to me at that time.) > >Why did you guys let me go ask a dumb question like that? > >John H. Henderson >Department of Electrical Engineering >Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
anchor.cs.colorado.edu!dougb(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RVator
I too edit a newsletter (Portland RVators) and received a copy along with a request to pass-out order cards, etc. Before I was willing to do so I checked with Van's: Ken Scott said they worked with the guy a little and agree that it is a nice piece of work, well done and laid-out. I agree too, it is a nice piece of reference/historical work. They also told him they wouldn't endorse it until he gave them proof of some qty pre-printed (to avoid another 'RV yearbook' fiasco). I recommend it. don w. > > Where can I purchase a copy of the RVator Curt Reimer mentioned? Sounds > interesting. > > > - Randy > Howdy, How to get it. From Avery or direct from the publisher/author. "All those Old RV-Ators" Easy Publishing 328 Luscombe Dr Los Lunas, NM 87031 (505) 865-3466 $25.95 he takes Plastic too, so you can order by phone. Include card number and expiration date. No I'm not getting a take, but mention my name anyway, he did send me a book. Doug Bloomberg RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Claudio's dilemma
Claudio, I am sure it was Rion who wrote this great response to your questions. I have to agree with Rion: The -4 IS sportier, faster, better aerobatically, better visibility, less costly, etc. I disagree that adding wing lockers to a -6 is a good idea, UNLESS you plan lots of single pilot ops, as the -6 would really get overwieght. Wing-tip lockers on the -4 are a great idea for increasing your baggage capacity, and are showing-up more and more. Rion was copilot on a 2 ship RV-6 mission to Oshkosh with myself and my copilot Doug Miner. Now that I have spent 67 hours in my new RV-6, including cross country, limited formation flying, etc., my recommendation is: if SPORT flying is your main mission, build a -4. If side-by-side seating and baggage are more important, build a -6A. Rion's comment about a -6A having a 'Grumman-like appearance' only holds true if you are on the ground watching one fly over. Air to Air, the -6A is still a sleek, fast looking airplane, MUCH more so than any Grumman ever thought of being (sorry Frank). Why a -6A over a -6? Because they are easier (xlated: SAFER) to land/taxi. Period. don wentz. (Just back from Disney World (what a letdown after flying an RV)! I miss my airplane...) In deciding which two-seat RV to build, a logical approach would be to list the relative advantages and disadvantages of each in relation to the other two-seater RV models. I would assume Claudio and any other prospective RV builder has already used a similar process to eliminate other manufacturers' kits. I would propose the following as a list of the relative advantages and disadvantages of the RV-4 vs. the RV-6s, and then theh RV-6 vs. theh RV-6A. RV-4 vs. RV-6s: RV-4 Advantages: faster, sexier, better visibility, better acrobatics due to pilot sitting on center line, less expensive to build, and more fun to stand beside at fly-ins. Disadvantages: cramped rear seat, less baggage capacity, less range. RV-6s Advantages: more comfort for passenger/co-pilot, tremendous baggage capacity (two lawn chairs no problem), room for IFR panel, more range. Float conversion already available for the -6. Disadvantages: less visibility to the right, looks less like a P-51, more expensive kit, pilot sits offset to one side or the other. Comments: I understand the float kit for the RV-4 is in the works. The range can be equalized by building RV-6 tanks on the RV-4. The baggage differential can be reduced, but not eliminated, by installing storage lockers in the RV-4 wing tips. Of course, storage lockers in the RV-6 tips restores the differential. Bottom line is that the RV-6 is more convenient for camping, and more comfortable for the passenger, but the RV-4 is more fun for the pilot to fly due to the tandem seating. A serious question to consider is how big is your spouse, whether or not your spouse will be happy riding in the back, and if your spouse is a pilot, whether or not you will be happy riding in the back. I have only flown in the back seat of an RV-4, and much prefer the right seat of the RV- 6 to the back seat of the RV-4. But I fly a Champion 7ECA (Citabria) taildragger regularly, and much prefer the tandem seating arrangement to side-by-side due to the differences in visibility and the feel of the airplane. I really like being able to see the ground equally on both sides. In a side-by-side airplane, I always feel like I'm missing something. Most of my flying will be sport flying, I have always traveled light, and my wife is not a pilot. I will not have to fly in the back seat of my RV-4. So I chose the RV-4. RV-6 vs. RV-6A: RV-6 Advantages: the tail-dragger looks better, is lighter and slightly faster, and is cheaper to build. The float conversion is already available. Disadvantages: the tail-dragger is harder to land. RV-6A Advantages: the trike is easier to land, and has better visibility taxiing. Disadvantages: the trike is a tad heavier, a tad slower, and can be mistaken from a distance for a Grumman product. Comments: I don't believe the RV-6 can be used on appreciably rougher fields than the -6A, at least not with the standard sized main wheels. I have never landed my Citabria on a field an RV-6A could not handle. I don't think rough fields are an issue here, but I am no bush pilot. I have flown in both the -6 and the -6A, and I can't tell the difference in flight. I can sure tell the difference taxiing and landing: the -6A is easier to land, and has better taxiing visibility at slow speeds. I think the major advantage of the -6 over the -6A is looks. The -6 is no more fun to fly than the -6A unless you like the challenge of landing the taildragger. If you haven't flown taildraggers in the past, you could transition very quickly into the RV-6A, but will need some serious training before you fly the RV-4 or RV-6. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1994
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Over or under the skin on the elevator
I did it the way Frank/Randall suggested, I think it worked/looks just fine. don w. Gregory W. Ratcliff wrote: > > The plans are very clear and say to put the "strap/cap" UNDER the > skin on the elevator...(the piece that gets lead filled). > > Anyway most every -6 I have seen has it OVER the skin. What gives? > > I know it looks nicer OVER, but just want to make sure. > Oh I don't know, I think it looks just fine UNDER, as called out in the instructions. I don't think it would make any difference either way structurally. A couple of tips here: 1) If you put the strap UNDER the skin, make a u-shaped relief notch in the skin where it overlaps the strap, maybe 1/4" deep by 3/16" wide. This alleviates stress there and has a more finished look. 2) When you are ready for final assembly of the skin to the skeleton, rivet the strap to the skin with solid rivets BEFORE slipping the skin over the skeleton. This avoids using pop rivets there. I got this from Frank, it's in his instructions. Randall Henderson RV-6X ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 13, 1994
From: "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Subject: Re: Silliness
On Fri, 12 Aug 1994, Gil Alexander wrote: > John, > Don't trust any RVator drawings date 4-1-XX !! ..... Gil Alexander > > > I had never seen the article. I'm sure (I hope) that I wouldn't have been duped if I had seen it and had any idea what an RV-8 was. Hey, Don, When are we going to see pictures of 790DW in front of Mt. St. Helens in Sport Aviation, Kitplanes or the RVator? John H. Henderson Department of Electrical Engineering Auburn University ________________________________________________________________________________ Sat, 13 Aug 94 21:15:06 GMT+2
From: "Charles Crosby" <CROS-CP(at)fanella.ee.up.ac.za>
Date: Aug 13, 1994
Subject: RV-2/5??
John Henderson said: > >When I was at Van's, > >I asked Andy, like an idiot, what the RV-8 was. He explained > >to me that it was a joke. (He was pointing out the remains > >of the RV-5 to me at that time.) Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but what are the 'missing' RV's, the RV-2 and RV-5? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Perrin <perrin(at)sofkin.ca>
Subject: Re: Avery Back Rivetting Plate
Date: Aug 14, 1994
Bill I too found the machining on the back riveting plate to be a little too rough for my liking. I took some wet sandpaper to it (320, 400 then 600), added some elbow grease and now it looks like a mirror (keep the surface wet when sanding) . Much better. Just make sure you keep it covered or keep some WD-40 on it when its not in use - I found that mine would rust very quickly, the humidity is bad here (Ottawa), and I'd imagine you'd have the same problem out there in god's country. cheers John Perrin RV-4 2473 scattered about the workshop. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Aug 14, 1994
Subject: Re: Please change my address on rv-list and at Matronics
Hi Doug! >-------------- > Howdy Matt, > > The list grows! How many folks are part of our RV mailer? Its about at 75 right now. I just added about 5-6 this week! > > How many can you handle? > Unlimited, at this point. > I, for one, am glad that you still are taking the time to adm. the RV > mailer. THANKS!!! Well, you're certainly welcome. It's really great to see all the excellent building tips and general builder excitment on the list. Makes it worth it! > > I have heard from one of the new folks and they asked for a FAQ. Seems that > I remember a FTP site with the archeives of the mailer. But, I forgot > where that is. Maybe a re-posting. I can email the compressed/uuencoded back postings to whoever would like them. I would really like to get a direct Internet connection. I would like to add a RV-LIST Mosaic Home page!!!! I am looking into getting Internet directly to replace the UUCP, but its pretty costly. Perhaps with ISDN coming soon, the prices will drop. > I also noticed "Sport Aviation" printed a mailer for Kitfoxes, maybe > a quick letter to "SA" and we could get more input. The choice is > yours, you do all of the work. What is this you are talking about? I don't understand? > > Second point. I received a flyer from Matronics about the Gov'ner. I intend > to buy one! But it had my incorrect address. > > Correct address: xxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxx GREAT! Please buy one and tell all your friends! That mailer went out to about 1620 RV builders, mostly in CA, OR, and WA. The more people that know about it the better! Thank you for the business. > > Thanks so much for the work you have done! You're welcome, but the pleasure has been all mine! > > Blue skies ands Tailwinds. > > Doug Bloomberg > RV-6A > >-------------- Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Aug 14, 1994
Subject: New RV-Listers....
>-------------- > > > Is the RV-list mentioned in the rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ? Perhaps it > > should be so that new rec.aviators will know about it right away. > > > > Curt Reimer > > Sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's rv-list-request(at)matronics.com, > ^^^^^^^^ > right Matt? (to avoid all these requests getting distributed to the whole > list) > > Randall >-------------- Yes!! Most definately! New additions to the list that are sent to the list don't get handled until I read through all of my mail. Sometimes I can't get to that for 2-3 weeks. Requests sent to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com will get handled much quicker. Thank you for the support. Matt Drlale ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1994
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Avery back riveting plate
I used the surface of my Sears table saw to back rivet the elevator skins, etc. and did not experince any transfer of the "roughness" of the tabel top to the skin. The table saw is milled flat but not really "smooth". I intend to paint my airplane so I expect any minor imperfections on the skins to be removed by the 400 grit wet 'n dry surface preparation. Maybe if I was going to leave it polished aluminum I would have polished my table top first. Richard >I purchased the Avery arm, dimpling dies, rivet sets, the back >riveting plate and a few other odds and ends. I had the stuff drop >shipped to a friend in the USA, and brought it home last weekend. > >My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but >it isn't very smooth. How smooth is smooth enough? I find that when I >use the avery back riveting set in my rivet gun, on 3/32 flush rivets >with the factory head against the plate, the pattern on the plate gets >transferred to the rivet head and the surrounding sheet metal (< 1/16 >inch around the rivet). It doesn't look right to me. > >Has anyone else had this happen? The thing is so heavy its probably >not worth returning -- especially across the border. Am I being too picky? > > >-- >Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, >Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada >bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML ________________________________________________________________________________
From: twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Date: Aug 15, 1994
Subject: Inspection cover, #6 plate nut source?
Hi all, I've been working on the inspection opening on bottom of the wing and ran into the "Gosh, 3/8 in. is really too narrow for the dimension of the overlap of the cover and reinforcing ring for those giant #8 screws..." Of course, I realized this after all of the parts were made and drilled to the skins (I hadn't seen Frank's instructions at the time...) After trying some #8 dimples 3/16" from the edge in practice pieces, it was clear to me #8 hardware could not be used without distorting the edges of the pieces. So, after verifying it with Van's, I decided that using #6 hardware would probably work ok (If doing it over, I'd make the flange 1/2" or so instead of 3/8"). Now for the question... The material is too thin to machine countersink (particularly the wing spar flange) so dimpling will be required. The problem is I can't seem to find a source for #6 plate nuts with the recess built in for the back of the dimple. I'm guessing the part number would be K1100-06 since K1100-08 is the part number for the #8s in the kit. I checked the Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, and Alexander catalogs but they don't carry these. I suppose I could add some doublers to the pieces so I could machine countersink and use the regular K1000 plate nuts, but that seems kind of kludgey and a fair amount of work. Any ideas for a source of these K1100-06 plate nuts? Or any other ideas on how to deal with this problem? Maybe I should just bite the bullet and order new metal and redo the whole assembly... I didn't realize the inspection plate cover assembly was going to turn into a major project. My goal of completing this thing in time to celebrate the 100th anniversary of powered flight is in jeopardy! BTW - The person I spoke to at Van's said the reason #8 hardware was called out for in the plans was to limit it to one size for the whole kit to keep the cost down. Another question - what is the limit on how thick a piece of material can be dimpled? Thanks Tom Goeddel RV-6A (eventually) t.goeddel(at)att.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Aug 15, 1994
Subject: Re: RV-2/5??
> Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but what are the 'missing' RV's, > the RV-2 and RV-5? > I don't know about the RV-2, but the RV-5 was an experiment by Van. If I recall correctly what Andy told me, it was swing-wing motorglider that used a Rotax engine. The wing could swing for moving/storage. It naturally had a flat top for the wing to swing over. It is now hanging from the rafters of Van's hangar at Sunset strip. Maybe somebody else has more details. John Henderson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU>
Date: Aug 15, 1994
Subject: RV Mosaic Page
> I would really like to get a direct Internet connection. I would like to add > a RV-LIST Mosaic Home page!!!! For everyone with mosaic, check out the RV page maintained by Michael Goldsmith. The URL is: http://matrix.ssd.intel.com:8008/~mag/rv-builder.html It currently contains Frank Justice's RV-6 construction procedures and Randall Henderson's RVator index (which I converted to HTML for mosaic. BTW, Randall and I are not related as far as I know.). Michael is looking into other things, too. Perhaps we can add Matt's list of RV-listers. John Henderson RV-6 23687 BTW, I was once under the impression that there was a different set of plans for the -6 and -6A. My set contains plans for both. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1994
From: Steve Allison <stevea(at)svpal.org>
Subject: rv list
Understand you are maintaining an RV builders/owners list. Could you add me to the list. Let me know if you need any other information. Thanks, Steve Allison RV-6A....empennage kit in process ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Avery back riveting plate
> My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but > it isn't very smooth. How smooth is smooth enough? I find that when I > use the avery back riveting set in my rivet gun, on 3/32 flush rivets > with the factory head against the plate, the pattern on the plate gets > transferred to the rivet head and the surrounding sheet metal (< 1/16 > inch around the rivet). It doesn't look right to me. > > Has anyone else had this happen? The thing is so heavy its probably > not worth returning -- especially across the border. Am I being too picky? > > -- > Bill Baines, Operations and Tech. Support, > Simon Fraser University, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada > bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 291-3955, (fax 291-4242), VE7FML > This doesn't sound so good. Mine shows milling marks but is smooth enough that nothing transfers to the skin. There definitely shouldn't be any transfer of pattern to your skin. I'd return it to Avery and ask them to pay for shipping. Unless you know someone who has a milling machine, it would be easy to machine it flat of you have access to one of those. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1994
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Inspection cover, #6 plate nut source?
Regarding using #6 screws with dimpled skin: I've seen a lot of Art Chard's work and in several places he's just added a little .040 or so spacer under each platenut and countersunk that (like Tom described), so if you do it that way at least you'll be in good company. Does seem kind of kludgy to me too, and not as easy if you can find #6 dimpled plate nuts, but if not it would get the job done, and hey, it doesn't show anyway. Randall Henderson RV-6 > > Hi all, > > I've been working on the inspection opening on bottom of the wing and ran > into the "Gosh, 3/8 in. is really too narrow for the dimension of the > overlap of the cover and reinforcing ring for those giant #8 screws..." > Of course, I realized this after all of the parts were made and drilled > to the skins (I hadn't seen Frank's instructions at the time...) > After trying some #8 dimples 3/16" from the edge in practice pieces, it > was clear to me #8 hardware could not be used without distorting the > edges of the pieces. So, after verifying it with Van's, I decided that > using #6 hardware would probably work ok (If doing it over, I'd make > the flange 1/2" or so instead of 3/8"). Now for the question... > The material is too thin to machine countersink (particularly the > wing spar flange) so dimpling will be required. The problem is I can't > seem to find a source for #6 plate nuts with the recess built in for > the back of the dimple. I'm guessing the part number would be K1100-06 > since K1100-08 is the part number for the #8s in the kit. I checked the > Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, and Alexander catalogs but they don't carry these. > I suppose I could add some doublers to the pieces so I could machine > countersink and use the regular K1000 plate nuts, but that seems kind of > kludgey and a fair amount of work. Any ideas for a source of these K1100-06 > plate nuts? Or any other ideas on how to deal with this problem? > Maybe I should just bite the bullet and order new metal and redo the whole > assembly... I didn't realize the inspection plate cover assembly was going to > turn into a major project. My goal of completing this thing in time to > celebrate the 100th anniversary of powered flight is in jeopardy! > > BTW - The person I spoke to at Van's said the reason #8 hardware was > called out for in the plans was to limit it to one size for the whole > kit to keep the cost down. > > Another question - what is the limit on how thick a piece of material > can be dimpled? > > Thanks > > Tom Goeddel > RV-6A (eventually) > t.goeddel(at)att.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Aug 15, 1994
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: RV6 longerons
RV6 builders, I have a fuselage question. I have put the first bend in my upper fuselage longerons, and as I place them on the jig, I notice that a twist is needed in them from the wing spar bulkhead (F604) to the firewall (F601), and that this twist is quite noticeable. Does this twist have to be bent into the longerons, or can it be "persuaded" into position as the bulkheads are jigged into place??? ... and if it has to be "persuaded", does this put a large load onto the firewall fitting, needing large C-clamps, both at the longeron attach fittings and for clamping it (F601) to the jig??? Neither the instructions, or the RV6 fuselage video seem to address this bend. thanks for any help ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com
Date: Aug 15, 1994
Subject: RV Mailing LIst
Please include me on the distribution of the RV mailing list. Thanks. Either; sikjes(at)rcinet.utc.com or sleigh%tvax01(at)utrcgw.utc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobn(at)ims.com
Date: Aug 15, 1994
Subject: Re: Avery back riveting plate
>> My question is about the back riveting plate. It is milled flat, but


June 03, 1994 - August 15, 1994

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