RV-Archive.digest.vol-ah
November 14, 1994 - January 05, 1995
>> RAIM. Predictive Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring will let
>> the pilot know at least 15 minutes, and in most cases much sooner, to
>> reaching the destination airport that there will be enough working
>> satellites in view to not only triangulate a position but also
>> cross-check it's position via RAIM techniques.
>
>Does it take surrounding terrain into account? What is the lowest usable
>angle for an approach anyway?
>
>Earl
At this time I don't think anyone is implementing terrain obstructions, But
this information is available in the Jeps database, so it could be implemented
in the future if there is a need. Each approach is tested under several
conditions before being approved for GPS.
As for the angle? Are you referring to how high a space vehicle (SV) need to be
in the sky to count it as valid? I don't recall there being a spec on that, You
can utilize SV above 7 deg, but the higher the better... the low the SV is in
the sky the more interference / degradation you get from atmosphere.
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Another Antennae Question |
On Fri, 11 Nov 1994 bobn(at)ims.com wrote:
> Has anyone tried gluing a stripe antennae to the fiberglass cowl? I can
> imagine one glued to the inside of the lower half of the cowl near the
> firewall. Would there be static from the plug wires? Has anyone tried it?
> Would anyone want to do some experiments?
Very good idea. The plug wires are fully shielded, so they ought not to
cause any trouble. The only problem is that while a fuselage or canopy
mounted antenna can use the fuselage as a ground plane, I think a cowl
mounted antenna might need a a piece of aluminum or copper foil, or at
least some radial conductors, to act as a ground plane. It sounds like it
would be worth experimenting with, though. Unfortunately I am a couple of
years away from antenna installation.
> I've seen the ones stuck to the inside if the canopy, but they are very visable.
Yeah, I thought that the foil strip windshield antenna was really ugly
and annoying. Why not use a length of 30 gauge wire held down with some
clear adhesive tape, instead of the thick foil strip? A thin wire would
be almost invisible.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, Chris Schulte wrote:
> I can remember reading in Sport Aviation about a month ago that today
> there are more RV's being completed in the world then any other single
> airplane. The article said a new RV take to the skies every three(3)
> days.!!
>
> Does anyone have any statistics on the average build time for these
> 800 some RVs? 4 years? 5 years? I think I got 3 years in mine... and
> it looks like another 3 before it flies :)
According to Van's new promotional video, the average build time is 2.5
years. They claim this figure represents working people with families. It
seems pretty optimistic to me. I work but don't have a family, and I
reckon on 3 years, at least. Of course, money has something to do with it
as well.
> PS I think there are more 6's then 6A's too, I bet they got that
> number backwards. There were 35 RV-6's and 0 RV-6A's flying by the
> end of 1991 and I'm sure there has been more then 25 6's take to the
> skies in the past 3 years.
I thought the same thing when I read the article. I seem to recall Van
saying at Oshkosh this year that the number of 6/6A kits sold per month are
roughly equal at the moment, so it only makes sense that more 6's exist
right now. There were certainly a lot more 6's than 6A's at Oshkosh this
year.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Elevator Trim Kit For Sale |
After much deliberation, I have decided to stick with manual trim in my
-6. So, I have an unused electric elevator trim kit for sale. Van's price
was $162. Offers?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | IFR GPS without current database |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Well I asked Don Donaldson with the FAA about this over
the weekend at the Oregon Air Fair. I don't remember his title
but apparently his job IS the GPS program within the FAA.
I asked if it is possible to use an out of data database for
IFR operations and if so, what additional demands are placed
on the user. (I also got in my usual political dig against
the Jeppesen monopoly!) His response was a simple and direct
"no, you must have a current database." End of discussion!
As I mentioned in a previous posting, you're not likely to
get caught unless something happens. But that's the way
it is with most FARs and I don't care what anyone says about
GPS certification and the legality of using an out of date
database, the FAA is writing the certificate suspensions and
good luck overturning one! We're talking administrative law
here--the U.S. Constitution apparently does not apply so I
wouldn't want to be caught straddling some regulation or TSO
gray area. But that's another soapbox. Safety and insurance
issues should be considered too.
I'll hold on to my Apollo 920+ until the update prices come
down--way down. Hear that Jeppesen? Hear that GPS manufacturers?
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: GPS and Jeps updates... |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> >Does it take surrounding terrain into account? What is the lowest usable
> >angle for an approach anyway?
>
> As for the angle? Are you referring to how high a space vehicle (SV) need to
be
> in the sky to count it as valid? I don't recall there being a spec on that,
You
> can utilize SV above 7 deg, but the higher the better... the low the SV is in
> the sky the more interference / degradation you get from atmosphere.
Right, I was referring to the angle of "sight" to the SV. 7 degrees
sounds pretty low for approaches to several mountain airports I can
think of. I'd hate to have them dropping offline as I descended.
Do they actually test each and everyone of the GPS and GPS overlay
approaches, or are they just assuming they work? Considering how
frequently the FAA checks other navaids, it seems appropriate that
GPS approaches should be checked under conditions similar to the worst
permissible GDOP and terrain/horizon angle.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: GPS and Jeps updates... |
Chris Schulte posts:
> There is a little hook to this! You can legally fly GPS approaches
> with an expired database!!! The requirements is that you check the
> information is correct before you execute the approach, not that you
> have a database that is in date.
>
Let me get this straight -- you'd have to double check all
intersections, altitudes, frequencies, waypoints, etc., etc., and
either do it for ALL possible approaches before your flight, or enroute
for a particular approach before you execute it -- Jeez, THAT sounds
like fun....
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Another Antennae Question |
>On Fri, 11 Nov 1994 bobn(at)ims.com wrote:
>
>> I've seen the ones stuck to the inside if the canopy, but they are very
>>visable.
>Curt Reimer added:-
>
>Yeah, I thought that the foil strip windshield antenna was really ugly
>and annoying. Why not use a length of 30 gauge wire held down with some
>clear adhesive tape, instead of the thick foil strip? A thin wire would
>be almost invisible.
>
I would have to check my RF texts, but I believe that a 30 gauge wire would
have too narrow a bandwidth. We need to tune the entire aircraft band (760
channels at 25 KHz = 19 MHz). An antenna with a larger diameter (most seem
to be 1/4 inch minimum) gives a larger bandwidth. The 30 gauge wire would
give good communications at one particular frequency, but fall off rapidly
in gain as the frequency deviated either way. This could be measured with
a SWR meter -- see your local friendly radio ham to borrow one.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 -- also sometimes known as KE6HAP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | recommendation on Landing Lights |
Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
If any one has used them at night that would help also.
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gretzw(at)tcplink.nrel.gov |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Another Antennae Question |
Speaking of antennas and Ham radio operators, ---Has any Ham
flyers done any HF trailing antennas from RV-6 platforms?
Warren N0FVG
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sjames(at)animas.tcinc.com (Scott James) |
| Subject: | recommendation on Landing Lights |
Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights?
I'll put in a plug for the local guy--Duckworks! None other than
list participant Don Wentz. I think most of us in the Portland
Rvators are putting them in now. They're easy to install before
or after final wing construction, inexpensive (with inexpensive
replacement halogen bulbs), light, good looking, and sold by a
hell of a nice guy. I think you can get 'em from Van's or
directly from Don.
I don't personally know what they are like to fly behind because my
airplane's not finished but I've heard good reports and my dualies
(two lamps in one mount) seem to put out a lot of light and a good
pattern.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
I'll second Earl's (qualified) endorsment of Don's landing lights -- I
have a single in the wing I've just finished, and plan on putting one
in the other wing as well. After extensive testing I can say with
confidence that if I ever happened to be flying straight up inside my
garage I'd be able to see the ceiling with no problem at all! :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
>
>Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
>like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
>for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
>in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
>assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
>
>Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
There are several systems on the market that use Auto headlights with both
high and low beam. I'm probably getting the name wrong, but I think one
manufacturer is "Bob Olds" and is/was listed in Van's accessory catelog. The
advantage is that they throw a lot of light. The disadvantage is that they
are a lot harder to install than a Duckworks system and the "sealed beam"
glass headlight is heavy.
If you're interested, Sylvania makes a Halogen off-road sealed beam
replacement headlight made from plastic for about $10. They are very light
weight and I think they are available in a Hi & Low beam combination. You'd
have to work out your own mounting system.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | recommendation on Landing Lights |
Gee, I was hoping that I could answer this one. Thanks for the kind
words Earl.
My landing light kits (Duckworks Exp. Aircraft Parts) use very
inexpensive automotive driving light components. They come complete
with mount, formed plexi lense, lights, and all necessary hdwr.
Installation takes about 6 hrs, using templates to eliminate lots of
measuring. Installed weight is appx 16 oz.
They use a replaceable $7 halogen bulb of 55 or 100 watts. So far I
have 133 hours on the 2 in my -6, with them on about 50% of the time,
with no burn-outs.
These are the same kits in Van's catalog. You can see one on the
RV-6T and RV-6B demonstrators, and on Lyle Hefel's & Les Williams
Oshkosh award winning RV-6s.
We have flown them into Vernonia Airport at night, which is an
unlighted, grass strip with hills/forests all around, so I know they
put-out adequate light!
I give a discount if you order 2 kits (Van's doesn't - don't read that
Tom!). Price for one is $69.95 from Van's. If you buy one kit for
each wing, discount is down to $130 for 2, + $6 shipping.
If you want a photo and price/info sheet, give me your address. If
you MUST use your own lamps, my kit can be easily adapted to other
lamps, and I will sell the mount/lense, etc. (all the stuff that is a
real PAIN to design and build) minus the lights that I supply.
don wentz
>Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
>like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
>for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
>in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
>assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
>Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>>
>> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
>> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
>> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
>> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
>> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
>> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
>> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
>> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
>> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
>> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Trim tab plans for RV-4 |
My personal experience:
I did 3 axis electric trim on my RV-6. It added >$600 and >10 weeks
of extra work. IF I could go back and do it today, this is what I
would do:
Electric Elevator trim - yes, it's nice and the kit is easy to do.
You CAN bury the actuator tab, but then it will be WAY too touchy,
UNLESS you use one of Matt Dralle's speed controls.
Elec Aileron trim - For $12 or so you can install Van's very simple
manual trim, requires nothing out at the aileron, just a small handle
between the seat pads.
Elec rudder trim - This was the most difficult of all, and is the most
useless of all. I find that I set it for high cruise and then never
touch it for weeks. A huge waste of time and $$ for me. Use a
fixed-tab for high cruise, the rest of the envelope doesn't need it.
It would have to be a monster tab to help in climb.
Now, if you still want to do it, I'll be happy to give you a list of
what it will take.
dw RV-6 20369 133hrs
One of the things I've always felt would be the ultimate in luxury in an
airplane is electric three-axis trim. With this in mind I ordered the Van's
electric pitch-trim kit.
After looking at the trim kit plans, I wasn't very happy with the
design, plus there are several errors on the drawings. Because of this, I've
decided to design my own trim set-up for the elevator.
In addition, I figured now would be a good time to design my own trim
set up for the rudder and ailerons. I'm going to have all the trim tabs
integral with the control surfaces (I've never understood why aircraft
designers make nice tidy elevator trim tabs and then hang ugly tabs off the
rudder and aileron.) and, of course, electro-servo driven.
I've already started drawing up the plans, but I thought I'd check the
'net to see if anyone has already done this. If you have, or if you just
want to compare notes, let me know by e-mail. I'll have the plans done by
Ted (L.A.-RV-4)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com |
| Subject: | re:recommendation on Landing Lights |
>Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
>landing/taxi lights?
Just a suggestion, but I've always thought those new automotive headlights
(like on the Acuras) would work well. They are very small and very well
focused.
...probably cost a mint though.. and you'll have to custom fab the brackets.
James
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
>
>Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
>like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
>for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
>in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
>assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
>
>Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
>There are several systems on the market that use Auto headlights with
>both high and low beam. I'm probably getting the name wrong, but I
>think one manufacturer is "Bob Olds" and is/was listed in Van's
>accessory catelog. The advantage is that they throw a lot of light.
>The disadvantage is that they are a lot harder to install than a
>Duckworks system and the "sealed beam" glass headlight is heavy.
Bob, yes, it is "Bob Olds", he has sold lots of leading edge light
kits. His are still available, but they are not in Van's catalog
because when offered the opportunity he wasn't willing to give them an
OEM discount. You should be able to get his # from an old RVator, to
see if he has info available. I designed mine because I didn't like
the looks of his, but that is certainly only my opinion, like I said,
he has sold lots of kits.
>If you're interested, Sylvania makes a Halogen off-road sealed beam
>replacement headlight made from plastic for about $10. They are very
>light weight and I think they are available in a Hi & Low beam
>combination. You'd have to work out your own mounting system.
I am always interested in an opportunity to improve my kits. I have
evaluated some alternate lights, but they are always too expensive,
and I pride myself on the low cost of my kits (it ain't a living, but
it helps offset RV gas!). Where would I buy one of these to evaluate?
If the whole assembly is replace-able for $10, I would consider that
close-enough to the $7 bulb I currently use, as a replacement cost for
the users.
AS my other message said, my mount is easily modified to accept a
different lamp/reflector, if you want something other than what I
supply.
thx, dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
| Subject: | Light kits for wings |
Hi,
Will the landing light kits that are available work for the RV-3
wing also? I am about to start putting together a jig for building my
wings so this is the right time to think about it. Thanks.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landin |
Reply to: RE>recommendation on Landing Lights
Gang, During my days at Phlogiston building wings... I installed quite a =
few landing lights... Bob old's kit. It was offered thru Van's, and had =
it's merrit...(it was the *only* kit) Read this carefully, I intend no =
offecne to Mr. Olds, but that kit was a pain in the a**. Way too many =
little parts...(16 if memory serves), took too long to install and was a =
huge hole in the leading edges... I hated cutting that hole... no room =
for error... NONE.
Here's the good part.... I had the pleasure of helping Don Wentz with =
his airplane since day one... we talked alot about this subject =
(lights)...
and that guy (the engineering fool) made a landing light of his own.. a =
good one. Not singing his song or anything but take a look at this kit... =
it has all of about 3 parts... and is so dang bright... we light up the =
neighborhood blazing them around one night... He calls them =
Duckworks. The are a BARGIN. I kid you not. The Olds kit was very =
expensive...(VERY). Don's kit is less than a hundred for a single... and =
not much more for a double... I really recomend it.
Here's the clincher... Van puts em in his own airplanes. They are =
available in the Parts catalog, and thru Don. ask around... in fact =
the November photo in the Van's Calendar has a Duckwork's light kit. See, =
it's a clean install Retro fitable..inexpensive etc etc...
(ok Don, how bout that $20) heheheh
Doug Miner
RV-stuff...
--------------------------------------
Date: 11/14/1994 4:41 PM
From: Scott James
Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
(8.6.4/SMI-4.1)
-0700
From: animas.tcinc.com!sjames(at)matronics.COM (Scott James)
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:37:57 -0700 (MST)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Another Antennae Question |
>
>
>On Fri, 11 Nov 1994 bobn(at)ims.com wrote:
>
>> Has anyone tried gluing a stripe antennae to the fiberglass cowl? I can
>> imagine one glued to the inside of the lower half of the cowl near the
>> firewall.
>
>The problem with mounting a com antenna inside the cowl (aside from the
>fact that the heat and vibration would kill the coax pretty quickly)
>is that the remainder of the airplane would act as a big 'shield'.
>I once helped a guy who had a com antenna mounted behind an aluminum
>bulkhead inside a fabric-covered airplane. When the ground station
>was off the side or rear of the airplane, his radio worked great.
>But if the ground station was off the nose, forget it.
>
It would seem to me, that placed vertically on the lower half of the Cowl
near the fuselage wouldn't be much hotter than in a heated cabin. I was
thinking that the Coax would only need to protrude a few inches through the
firewall anyway, right near the lower left or right hand corner. The only
area shielded by the aircraft itself would be directly behind the plane.
I was thinking that a foil antennae on the canopy would have to receive
directly through the Fuse itself if it were in contact with a ground
station, but they seem to work OK. If it were to follow the verticle contour
of the cowl an antennae would have a much better exposure than from below
and behind one mounted in the canopy I would think.
...but as Frank Zappa used to say..."I could be totally wrong"...
Anyone willing to try?
bobn(at)ims.com
Bob Neuner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | GPS SV angle & Approaches |
>Right, I was referring to the angle of "sight" to the SV. 7 degrees
>sounds pretty low for approaches to several mountain airports I can
>think of. I'd hate to have them dropping offline as I descended.
>Do they actually test each and everyone of the GPS and GPS overlay
>approaches, or are they just assuming they work? Considering how
>frequently the FAA checks other navaids, it seems appropriate that
>GPS approaches should be checked under conditions similar to the worst
>permissible GDOP and terrain/horizon angle.
>
>Earl
OK... I found the passage in the TSO under Sensitivity & Dynamic Range, SV
angles below 7.5 degrees should be masked out, but the manufacture can go lower
if the develop acceptable test conditions and supporting analysis to
substantiate use of a lower mask angle.
My understanding is that every approach is flown by the FAA or hired
representative, DER - Test pilot, ect.
Chris.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: recommendation on Landing Lights |
Text item:
Yea I agree, the DUCKWORKS lights are good ... or to quote Paul Harvey
.. TRUE VALUE...and I don't even get a kickback on sales ... do I Don?
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: recommendation on Landing Lights
Date: 11/14/94 5:03 PM
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights?
I'll put in a plug for the local guy--Duckworks! None other than
list participant Don Wentz. I think most of us in the Portland
Rvators are putting them in now. They're easy to install before
or after final wing construction, inexpensive (with inexpensive
replacement halogen bulbs), light, good looking, and sold by a
hell of a nice guy. I think you can get 'em from Van's or
directly from Don.
I don't personally know what they are like to fly behind because my
airplane's not finished but I've heard good reports and my dualies
(two lamps in one mount) seem to put out a lot of light and a good
pattern.
Earl
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
From: "Earl Brabandt" <ichips.intel.com!earlb(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: recommendation on Landing Lights
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
Text item:
Heavy, Heavy, Heavy. Don Wentz has everything you need for this
application and ..... guess what? Halogen head lamps.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
Date: 11/14/94 4:29 PM
Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:37:57 -0700 (MST)
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
From: animas.tcinc.com!sjames(at)matronics.com (Scott James)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
Text item:
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
Duckworks light takes about three hours to install. I hear it takes about eight
to install an Olds light. Duckworks instructions are complete and idiot-proof.
They can be installed completely from the outside if necessary. Appearance of
Duckworks light is as follows: A plexiglas cover of the exact countour of the
wing leading edge, inside the skin, and six countersunk screws nearby. No extra
trim or reinforcing ring; like it was born there. The design is such that the
plexiglas will probably never crack around the screws. Open to the rest of the
wing area behind; can't collect water. If you had to you could easily make your
own replacement cover. I'm not flying yet, but everybody I have asked says they
get plenty of light. Any more questions?
FKJ
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:37:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
From: austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
Text item:
Don Wentz has a good setup and good value ... much like the RV's
themselves. He's the DUCKWORKS guy.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
Date: 11/14/94 3:31 PM
Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
If any one has used them at night that would help also.
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:37:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
From: austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | re:recommendation on Landing Lights |
>
>>Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
>>landing/taxi lights?
>
> Just a suggestion, but I've always thought those new automotive headlights
> (like on the Acuras) would work well. They are very small and very well
> focused.
>
> ...probably cost a mint though.. and you'll have to custom fab the brackets.
>
>
> James
>
>
I've thought the same thing! one of those "Focused Beam" headlights would be
great in the wingtip. I wonder if they have been around long enough to show
up at Junk Yards.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: recommendation on Landin |
Text item:
Is there anyone out there that hasn't worked at Phlogiston at one time
or the other. I could tell you some real stories about that.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: recommendation on Landin
Date: 11/15/94 11:03 AM
Reply to: RE>recommendation on Landing Lights
Gang, During my days at Phlogiston building wings... I installed quite a =
few landing lights... Bob old's kit. It was offered thru Van's, and had =
it's merrit...(it was the *only* kit) Read this carefully, I intend no =
offecne to Mr. Olds, but that kit was a pain in the a**. Way too many =
little parts...(16 if memory serves), took too long to install and was a =
huge hole in the leading edges... I hated cutting that hole... no room =
for error... NONE.
Here's the good part.... I had the pleasure of helping Don Wentz with =
his airplane since day one... we talked alot about this subject =
(lights)...
and that guy (the engineering fool) made a landing light of his own.. a =
good one. Not singing his song or anything but take a look at this kit... =
it has all of about 3 parts... and is so dang bright... we light up the =
neighborhood blazing them around one night... He calls them =
Duckworks. The are a BARGIN. I kid you not. The Olds kit was very =
expensive...(VERY). Don's kit is less than a hundred for a single... and =
not much more for a double... I really recomend it.
Here's the clincher... Van puts em in his own airplanes. They are =
available in the Parts catalog, and thru Don. ask around... in fact =
the November photo in the Van's Calendar has a Duckwork's light kit. See, =
it's a clean install Retro fitable..inexpensive etc etc...
(ok Don, how bout that $20) heheheh
Doug Miner
RV-stuff...
--------------------------------------
Date: 11/14/1994 4:41 PM
From: Scott James
Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
(8.6.4/SMI-4.1)
-0700
From: animas.tcinc.com!sjames(at)matronics.COM (Scott James)
Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:37:57 -0700 (MST)
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Subject: Re: recommendation on Landin
From: "Doug Miner" <qm.WV.TEK.COM!dougm(at)matronics.com>
Date: 15 Nov 1994 08:49:24 -0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: recommendation on Landin |
Text item:
>(ok Don, how bout that $20) heheheh
>
>Doug Miner
>RV-stuff...
Forget it, Doug. I never got paid for when I did it five months ago.
FKJ
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Subject: Re: recommendation on Landin
From: "Doug Miner" <qm.WV.TEK.COM!dougm(at)matronics.com>
Date: 15 Nov 1994 08:49:24 -0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | summary on landing lights |
I looks like the clear winner is Don Wentz Duckworks Exp. AC Parts
lights. The testimony from Doug Miner was excellent.
Also the fact that Van uses them and has them listed in his catalog
says a lot. If Van did not like them, I am sure he would engineer his own.
One last question for Don, if you use two lights (one in each wing I assume),
then do you adjust one for a taxi light and one for a landing light?
With seperate switches, I guess you could have them both on for landing.
If you just use one light, do you set it up for a compromise between
taxi and landing or is it bright enough to focus for landing and still
get good taxi lighting?
I think the value of good bright lights would be in the event of an
off airport landing at night. On the other hand, it may be less scary to
have the light off :) We also have a lot of deer down here that love
runway's at night. I have actually done several no light landings
on grass strips (not lighted) before in my younger (stupid) days.
With the Halogen lights now, it is probably foolish not to install them.
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list(at)matronics.com, ims.com!bobn(at)matronics.com
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
Lites::::
Must say that Don's lite is simple to install, tidy in appearance and
certainly cost effective. Chose it due to neat and tidy appearance.
installation was easy.
Don Meehan
>>
>>Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
>>like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
>>for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
>>in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
>>assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
>>
>>Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>>
>
>
>>There are several systems on the market that use Auto headlights with
>>both high and low beam. I'm probably getting the name wrong, but I
>>think one manufacturer is "Bob Olds" and is/was listed in Van's
>>accessory catelog. The advantage is that they throw a lot of light.
>>The disadvantage is that they are a lot harder to install than a
>>Duckworks system and the "sealed beam" glass headlight is heavy.
>
>Bob, yes, it is "Bob Olds", he has sold lots of leading edge light
>kits. His are still available, but they are not in Van's catalog
>because when offered the opportunity he wasn't willing to give them an
>OEM discount. You should be able to get his # from an old RVator, to
>see if he has info available. I designed mine because I didn't like
>the looks of his, but that is certainly only my opinion, like I said,
>he has sold lots of kits.
>
>>If you're interested, Sylvania makes a Halogen off-road sealed beam
>>replacement headlight made from plastic for about $10. They are very
>>light weight and I think they are available in a Hi & Low beam
>>combination. You'd have to work out your own mounting system.
>
>I am always interested in an opportunity to improve my kits. I have
>evaluated some alternate lights, but they are always too expensive,
>and I pride myself on the low cost of my kits (it ain't a living, but
>it helps offset RV gas!). Where would I buy one of these to evaluate?
>If the whole assembly is replace-able for $10, I would consider that
>close-enough to the $7 bulb I currently use, as a replacement cost for
>the users.
>
>AS my other message said, my mount is easily modified to accept a
>different lamp/reflector, if you want something other than what I
>supply.
>thx, dw
>
>
Don Meehan
WSU Cooperative Extension
Island County - Coupeville, WA 98239
206-679-7327 Meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
My partner and I are about to build fuselage and are wondering how much room
we will need. Since building in the basement has its limits the question we
are faced with is how important it is to be able to fit both wings at
thesame time for installing the landing gear. Do any of you have any advice
on this issue?
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Light kits for wings |
I have had only a few requests for RV-3, so haven't developed a kit.
I am working with a guy in CA who is trying to adapt my kit. The
problem is the -3 wing is smaller, causing the lense to not fit. I am
sure that the rest of the kit could be easily modifed to fit tho.
I'll try to get a tracing of a -3 wing nose rib so I can see how much
difference there is.
dw
Hi,
Will the landing light kits that are available work for the RV-3
wing also? I am about to start putting together a jig for building my
wings so this is the right time to think about it. Thanks.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | summary on landing lights |
Herman, I set the left light for optimum landing 'aim', the right
could be a compromise if necessary. Generally, there is enough
'spreading' of the light near the ground that taxi is improved. On a
-6A, it's even better due to the upright taxi angle.
Remember when aiming, the -6 fuselage really covers your view of the
right side.
dw
I looks like the clear winner is Don Wentz Duckworks Exp. AC Parts
lights. The testimony from Doug Miner was excellent.
Also the fact that Van uses them and has them listed in his catalog
says a lot. If Van did not like them, I am sure he would engineer his own.
One last question for Don, if you use two lights (one in each wing I assume),
then do you adjust one for a taxi light and one for a landing light?
With seperate switches, I guess you could have them both on for landing.
If you just use one light, do you set it up for a compromise between
taxi and landing or is it bright enough to focus for landing and still
get good taxi lighting?
I think the value of good bright lights would be in the event of an
off airport landing at night. On the other hand, it may be less scary to
have the light off :) We also have a lot of deer down here that love
runway's at night. I have actually done several no light landings
on grass strips (not lighted) before in my younger (stupid) days.
With the Halogen lights now, it is probably foolish not to install them.
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com,
ims.com!bobn(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: recommendation on Landing Lights |
Well! Thank you all for the nice comments on my kits! I didn't
realize there were so many customers on this list.
As for kickbacks, would more rides in my RV-6 suffice?
dw
>Lites::::
>
>Must say that Don's lite is simple to install, tidy in appearance and
>certainly cost effective. Chose it due to neat and tidy appearance.
>installation was easy.
>Don Meehan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: recommendation on Landin |
Gary Standley sez:
>
> Is there anyone out there that hasn't worked at Phlogiston at one time
> or the other. I could tell you some real stories about that.
>
Ok, I'll bite.... do tell!
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Other landing light possibilities |
>Bob, I saw a Sylvania light at Shuck's today. plastic, sealed, 2 beam, appx
>4x6", pretty light. $12.95.
>
>Is this what your other message was referring to?
>
>Do you think an automotive 'headlight' would provide a long-enough beam? I
use
>a 'driving light' since it is focused long and narrow.
>
>>
>> Just a suggestion, but I've always thought those new automotive headlights
>> (like on the Acuras) would work well. They are very small and very well
>> focused.
>>
>> ...probably cost a mint though.. and you'll have to custom fab the
brackets.
>I've thought the same thing! one of those "Focused Beam" headlights would be
>great in the wingtip. I wonder if they have been around long enough to show
>up at Junk Yards.
>
>
The sealed beam you saw at Shuck's is probably the one I was talking about
as an Automotive headlight. I think it would work fine. The unit from Bob
Olds uses a regular rectangular, auto, Hi/Low beam headlight. Jerry Springer
has one in his -6. I saw him take off from Twin Oaks last spring. It had a
good pattern and appeared to be much brighter than certified aircraft
taking off that night. It lit up most of the runway. I think the Sylvania
"Off-road" light would do the same.
The "Focused Beam" type headlight referred to by James is used on the new
Acuras and the like. They also throw a lot of light but do so by using a
relatively small reflector (hence a small planform) and changing the focus
with a lens to give a larger/longer pattern. I have know idea about the
weight or cost, but I'll bet it's expensive.
The thing I was thinking about is that they would be very small and could be
tucked away in the cowl, wingtip, or maybe even in the wheel pants.
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Wed Nov 16 17:49:00 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Re[2]: recommendation on Landing Lights
Don Wentz
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
Don,
I haven't even started building my -6 yet. However, if that's all
it takes to get a ride in your -6, I'll order the lights tomorrow!
Russ Nichols
Well! Thank you all for the nice comments on my kits! I didn't
realize there were so many customers on this list.
As for kickbacks, would more rides in my RV-6 suffice?
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Comments on manual aileron trim |
Yeh, I've got Van's manual aileron trim on my RV-4, which also has the stick
shortened about an inch. Bucks and time being of little consequence, I'd
strongly recommend electric aileron trim!!
Why? springs heavy up the ailerons, and you have to retrim with speed
changes. WIth the electric trim, make sure that the aileron is still balanced
properly.
Yes, the manual trim simple, and light, and cheap, but you get what you pay
for. Why do I keep it? so I can fly hands off with a fuel imbalance, and not
be switching tanks every ten minutes to keep things even.
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sjames(at)animas.tcinc.com (Scott James) |
| Subject: | Re: Comments on manual aileron trim |
[snip]
>
> Yes, the manual trim simple, and light, and cheap, but you get what you pay
> for. Why do I keep it? so I can fly hands off with a fuel imbalance, and not
> be switching tanks every ten minutes to keep things even.
>
> Ed
Speaking of fuel imbalance, how touchy is an RV-6? How often do
you switch tanks? Is it every 10 minutes? (I thought I saw some sarcasm)
Please specify your fuel capacity, and your engine (burn rate).
thanks,
scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fitting Wings |
>we will need. Since building in the basement has its limits the question we
>are faced with is how important it is to be able to fit both wings at
>thesame time for installing the landing gear. Do any of you have any advice
>on this issue?
>
>Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
>Whidbey RV-ators
>Coupeville, WA
>(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
Save your self the trouble and build the tail dragger :)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Comments on manual aileron trim |
Text item:
OK, I'm the dummy. I have never flown a low wing airplane. My time is
Cessna where we have a both / left / right setting on the fuel manifold
switch. What is the reason for a left or right only in low wings? Do
they have a both provision?
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Comments on manual aileron trim
Date: 11/17/94 10:48 AM
[snip]
>
> Yes, the manual trim simple, and light, and cheap, but you get what you pay
> for. Why do I keep it? so I can fly hands off with a fuel imbalance, and not
> be switching tanks every ten minutes to keep things even.
>
> Ed
Speaking of fuel imbalance, how touchy is an RV-6? How often do
you switch tanks? Is it every 10 minutes? (I thought I saw some sarcasm)
Please specify your fuel capacity, and your engine (burn rate).
thanks,
scott
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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:58:39 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Comments on manual aileron trim
From: animas.tcinc.com!sjames(at)matronics.com (Scott James)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Landing lights expose' |
Fellow travellers:
After being off the Net for one week, I logged on and found 100 messages in my
mailbox, with all but one from the RV-list, and much of it this drivel about
the Duckworks landing lights and how WONDERFUL and INNOVATIVE and LIGHTWEIGHT
they are. Well I thinks its time to BLOW THE LID OFF and talk about what's
REALLY going on here!
First item for your consideration: these so-called DUCKWORKS landing lights are
not original at all. If you check out the landing lights on the XP-51, North
American's prototype of the P-51, in the EAA's museum in Oshkosh, Wisconsin,
you will find THE VERY SAME DESIGN! Mssr. Wentz' so-called engineering is over
FIFTY YEARS OLD!
I know Wentz will tell you that he designed his kit before he ever went to
Oshkosh and saw the XP-51, but consider these FACTS: the empennage of the
RV-3, RV-4 and RV-6 all bear a striking resemblance to the empennage of the P-51
MUSTANG, and if you build a turtledeck on an RV-4, it looks frighteningly
similar to the XP-51!!! Furthermore, Wentz has been seen having breakfast with
the DESIGNER of the RV SERIES! And lo and behold, these very same
Duckworks/XP-51 landing lights are now CONVENIENTLY found in the Van's Aircraft
catalogue! And whose dad used to work for North American? None other than the
EDITOR of the RVATOR!!! Are all these connections between the P-51 and the RV-4
merely a coincidence? or CONSPIRACY!
Ask yourself this question: is the RV-4 really a civilian aircraft, or a not so
artfully camouflaged FIGHTERPLANE? Are we really mere homebuilders, or are we
unknowingly acting as test pilots for the Air Forces of anonymous third-world
countries, unwittingly paying for the privilege? Did an RV-6 in camoflauge
paint scheme recently appear in the pages of SPORT AVIATION, or was I just
hallucinating? Then ask yourself these questions: what are those massive
tie-down-ring hardpoints REALLY for, and why are they designed to support a
thousand pounds? Were those bigger aileron bellcrank-rib gussets REALLY
necessary to handle the pilot's stick force, or are they meant to handle the
recoil of something a little stronger than the average tricep? Why is the
secret R & D facility at Van's called the "skunkworks", and why is it so secret?
How can Van's Aircraft sell its kits at such reasonable prices unless it is
getting MAJOR funding from the Pentagon? And if we being forced to act as test
pilots for the military industrial complex, then why shouldn't we get our kits
for FREE?
RV builders UNITE!!!
Yours truly,
Rash Limbo
p.s. A diagnosis of paranoia does NOT prove they're not out to get you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: Comments on manual aileron trim |
Easy (I think). My guess is that the Cessna is gravity fed, while low
wings are pump drawn.
dw
--------
OK, I'm the dummy. I have never flown a low wing airplane. My time is
Cessna where we have a both / left / right setting on the fuel manifold
switch. What is the reason for a left or right only in low wings? Do
they have a both provision?
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Comments on manual aileron trim
Date: 11/17/94 10:48 AM
[snip]
>
> Yes, the manual trim simple, and light, and cheap, but you get what you pay
> for. Why do I keep it? so I can fly hands off with a fuel imbalance, and not
> be switching tanks every ten minutes to keep things even.
>
> Ed
Speaking of fuel imbalance, how touchy is an RV-6? How often do
you switch tanks? Is it every 10 minutes? (I thought I saw some sarcasm)
Please specify your fuel capacity, and your engine (burn rate).
thanks,
scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Comments on manual aileron trim |
Ed is right, every 10 minutes you either re-trim or switch tanks. My -6 has 19
gals per side, 180hp, 8gph with my current prop. I never fly 'hands-off', as
you would have to chase it continually (remember our Osh trip Doug M?). I just
find a comfortable location to rest my hand and maintain attitude that way.
Of course, you try to keep trim close so very slight pressure is needed. In
fact, when at gross with some baggage, as the fuel burns, the CG moves aft, and
you need to retrim the nose too. In that loading, just moving a foot from the
spar up to the pedals will cause enough change that it's visible in the stick!
Add some bumps and hands-on is required. BUT, I am NOT complaining! I fly
cross-country 5% of the time, so the light, responsive controls are GREAT!
Ed's comments about the manual trim are interesting, and I have to admit I've
never flown an RV so equipped.
dw
[snip]
>
> Yes, the manual trim simple, and light, and cheap, but you get what you pay
> for. Why do I keep it? so I can fly hands off with a fuel imbalance, and not
> be switching tanks every ten minutes to keep things even.
>
> Ed
Speaking of fuel imbalance, how touchy is an RV-6? How often do
you switch tanks? Is it every 10 minutes? (I thought I saw some sarcasm)
Please specify your fuel capacity, and your engine (burn rate).
thanks,
scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Man, Don't ya hate that !?!? |
It figures; merely a week after fighting with those rivets in the trailing
edge of the Horiz. Stabilizer, the new RVator comes out with a plan/part
revision for the HS-603. I see the new flanges are 3/4" to allow for more
room between the rivets and reinforcing strips. It took me several
tools/pulled hairs to get a good rivet set up near the strips. I ended up
using the grinded off Vice Grips to get at em'. A good tip here --- buy VICE
GRIP brand. The Made in China pair was too sloppy and tended to put a
terribly crooked set on the rivet. Anybody else have this problem? (The
space problem)
This leads me to wonder, how many of these plans revisions am I missing. I
only have the last 3 RVators. I must assume that all of the previous
revisions were incorporated into the plans right up to the day that the plans
are sent out. Hmmm.
Oh well, with only a few minor "smiles" the HS is done. (70 hrs.) Now on to
the vertical. Yippppeeeee :-)
Shawn Chaney - PP - SEL - IA
Fremont, OH
RV-6A (In Progress)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing lights expose' |
I don't know em', but I think the guy who posted this has spent to much time
with in the shop with the acid etch lid off.
Shawn C. :-)
===========================================================================
Fellow travellers:
After being off the Net for one week, I logged on and found 100 messages in
my
mailbox, with all but one from the RV-list, and much of it this drivel about
the Duckworks landing lights and how WONDERFUL and INNOVATIVE and LIGHTWEIGHT
they are. Well I thinks its time to BLOW THE LID OFF and talk about what's
REALLY going on here!
First item for your consideration....
And if we being forced to act as test
pilots for the military industrial complex, then why shouldn't we get our
kits
for FREE?
RV builders UNITE!!!
Yours truly,
Rash Limbo
p.s. A diagnosis of paranoia does NOT prove they're not out to get you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Man, Don't ya hate that !?!? -Reply |
M
It figures; merely a week after fighting
with those rivets in the trailing edge of
the Horiz. Stabilizer, the new RVator comes
out with a plan/part revision for the
HS-603. I see the new flanges are 3/4" to
allow for more room between the rivets and
reinforcing strips. It took me several
tools/pulled hairs to get a good rivet set
up near the strips. I ended up using the
grinded off Vice Grips to get at em'. A
good tip here --- buy VICE
GRIP brand. The Made in China pair was too
sloppy and tended to put a terribly crooked
set on the rivet. Anybody else have this
problem? (The space problem)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Shawn,
I just moved my rivet line back to hold the
3/16 " edge clearance for 3/32 rivets. It
was nip and tuck where a rivet head from
the spar flange is inline with the skin
rivet but I was able to sqeeze them all
with the Avery hand sqeezer and standard
rivet sets. N0 Grinding.
Jim S.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This leads me to wonder, how many of these
plans revisions am I missing. I only have
the last 3 RVators. I must assume that all
of the previous revisions were incorporated
into the plans right up to the day that the
plans are sent out. Hmmm.
Oh well, with only a few minor "smiles" the
HS is done. (70 hrs.) Now on to the
vertical. Yippppeeeee :-)
Shawn Chaney - PP - SEL - IA
Fremont, OH
RV-6A (In Progress)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Other Landing Lighjt Possibilities |
Reply to a note from Don Wentz 11/17/94
[Responding to a question from Don]
>>The sealed beam you saw at Shuck's is probably the one I was talking about
>>as an Automotive headlight. I think it would work fine. The unit from Bob
>>Olds uses a regular rectangular, auto, Hi/Low beam headlight. Jerry
>>Springer has one in his -6. I saw him take off from Twin Oaks last spring.
>>It had a good pattern and appeared to be much brighter than certified
>>aircraft taking off that night. It lit up most of the runway. I think the
>>Sylvania "Off-road" light would do the same.
[Don]
>I don't doubt it lighted the 'local area' well, the issue is, when you're
on final, half a mile from the >runway, does it light-up the runway, or just
the area immediately in front of the aircraft?
Based on Rion's recent posting , if the "XP-51" used a Hi/Low beam Halogen
headlight from a '39 Packard, I may have been able to extrapolate the exact
pattern the Bob Olds headlight might have thrown. But since it didn't, I
have no way of telling. I am only guessing that it had a pattern at least as
good as an inexpensive reflector and halogen bulb from...oh..let's say an
auto fog light.
[Responding to a question from Don]
>>The "Focused Beam" type headlight referred to by James is used on the new
>>Acuras and the like. They also throw a lot of light but do so by using a
>>relatively small reflector (hence a small planform) and changing the focus
>>with a lens to give a larger/longer pattern. I have know idea about the
>>weight or cost, but I'll bet it's expensive.
>>The thing I was thinking about is that they would be very small and could be
>>tucked away in the cowl, wingtip, or maybe even in the wheel pants.
[Don]
>Yes they could, if you want to go to all the work of doing that. This
entails lots of that damn fiberglass
>work, which sucks, in my opinion.
First of all, I was only responding to another member of the net regarding
the use of the new "focused beam" headlights for landing lights. He had an
interesting idea. YOU asked me the question about them! I only gave several
suggestions of interesting places where they could be placed. They didn't
have to be fiberglass parts, I could have said a 'hole' in the leading edge.
Other than that, the only other places facing forward on an RV are made from
(damn) fiberglass. Don't blame me, blame Van, he designed in all of that
stuff that "sucks" in your opinion.
[Don]
>You may be willing to take the time to do that just so yours is different,
but I know that MOST builders
>want the cheapest, easiest installation they can get, hence the success of
my 'less than pretty' mount
>setup.
Referring to a note, Don, you posted about the great amount of time you
spent making an electric "rudder trim", MOST builders might be able to use a
little bit of that time creating a lighting system that suits them. MOST
have pride in their craftsmanship and want to do the best job they can.
Secondly Don, you don't know "just" what I am doing with my RV or whether it
will be "different" or by the manual.
[Don]
>I will confine my efforts to 'the masses' and leave the 'whizzy' stuff to
you guys.
The masses have a lot of choices. They can settle for simple solutions or
experiment with new ideas and innovations that could benefit us all. After
all they are building "experimental" aircraft. I could care less whether
they buy cheap landing lights, invent there own, or copy the ones from a
WWII fighter. I enjoy listening and exchanging interesting ideas with other
builders. Some of them have "whizzy" ideas that turn into products I can buy
if I don't have the time to fabricate.
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "'Charlie Brown -- Dragon-Slayer'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing lights expose' |
On 17 Nov 1994, J. Rion Bourgeois wrote:
> EDITOR of the RVATOR!!! Are all these connections between the P-51 and the RV-4
> merely a coincidence? or CONSPIRACY!
>
>
> RV builders UNITE!!!
>
> Yours truly,
>
> Rash Limbo
>
> p.s. A diagnosis of paranoia does NOT prove they're not out to get you.
>
Great expose'. I liked the suggestion that someone made after the
Cessna tried landing on the White House Lawn -- scrap the B-2 and
put the 172 back into production....well, now I know that idea wasn't
far off what Uncle Sam has in mind. I'd be glad to do some R&D. Send
me my free kit.
When do we get part II of the OshKosh Saga. My military friends
loved the part about the Harrier.
C23456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012
C
C John H. Henderson E-mail: johnh(at)eng.auburn.edu
C Dept. of Electrical Engineering Finger: johnh(at)finger.eng.auburn.edu
C Auburn University Mosaic: http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~johnh
C
As of November 9th, Rush declared the hostage crisis over,
so the hostage crisis countdown will no longer appear here.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com |
ok, OK, OK!!
It was me that suggested the use of the new focused beam headlights. It
was just a suggestion. I'm gonna use them. I'd like to try to incorporate
them into the gear legs, but will probably mount them in the wing tips.
To give everybody a chance to simmer down over this illuminating topic,
here's another neat stereogram. Just stare at your reflection in your
monitor. The characters will go 3d.
V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
N N N N N N N N N N N N N
S S S S S S S S S S S
<<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>>
R R R R R R R R R R R
V V V V V V V V V V V V V
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 S
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
James Sleigh
Sikorsky Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvdz.cv.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: Comments on manual aileron trim |
> OK, I'm the dummy. I have never flown a low wing airplane. My time is
> Cessna where we have a both / left / right setting on the fuel manifold
> switch. What is the reason for a left or right only in low wings? Do
> they have a both provision?
--
Finally, a question that I know the answer to...
OK, you have two tanks, one in each wing and one is full and the other
is empty.
On a high wing airplane, the fuel from the full tank will rush down and
feed the engine. Also, depending on plumbing, it may flow back up and
into the empty tank.
On a low wing airplane the fuel won't flow uphill, a fuel pump is needed to
suck up the fuel. If one tank is empty the pump takes the path of least
resistance and sucks air from the empty tank instead of fuel from the
full. To prevent this the designer (be it Piper or Van) don't plumb in
a 'both' setting.
With a high wing airplane, if you feed both tanks into one line and open
the valve
--
Randy Stockberger The people are not *given* freedom by the government.
randys(at)cv.hp.com The people *take* freedom from the government.
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Fuselage skinning |
Question for those RV6 builders who have already skinned their fuselage
(and possibly RV4 builders, but the RV4 has thicker skins and stronger
stringers)
How did you locate the holes for drilling?? I can think of several ways:
A. Pre-drill the frame, and then back-drill through the skins.
B. Postition the skin, mark the bulkhead/stringer locations on the inside,
remove and drill the skin only, replace on frame, and final drill. (the
Orndof [sp?] video method)
C. Place skin on frame, measure carefully to known reference points, mark
spacing on skin, and drill through skin and frame simultaneously.
Any pros and cons ... or comments???
thanks, Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 .. finally ready to start fuse. skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
>
>
> V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
> N N N N N N N N N N N N N
> S S S S S S S S S S S
>
> <<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>>
> R R R R R R R R R R R
> V V V V V V V V V V V V V
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 S
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
>
Hey! I was reading this message, and all of a sudden, I have this
uncontrollable urge to build a nosewheel onto my RV-6! There's not
a subliminal message or anything in here, is there?
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: Comments on manual aileron trim |
Text item:
Thank you very much. I really hadn't thought much about it but it
sounds like a built in "gotcha" if you're not thinking about what you're
doing.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[3]: Comments on manual aileron trim
Date: 11/18/94 1:04 PM
> OK, I'm the dummy. I have never flown a low wing airplane. My time is
> Cessna where we have a both / left / right setting on the fuel manifold
> switch. What is the reason for a left or right only in low wings? Do
> they have a both provision?
--
Finally, a question that I know the answer to...
OK, you have two tanks, one in each wing and one is full and the other
is empty.
On a high wing airplane, the fuel from the full tank will rush down and
feed the engine. Also, depending on plumbing, it may flow back up and
into the empty tank.
On a low wing airplane the fuel won't flow uphill, a fuel pump is needed to
suck up the fuel. If one tank is empty the pump takes the path of least
resistance and sucks air from the empty tank instead of fuel from the
full. To prevent this the designer (be it Piper or Van) don't plumb in
a 'both' setting.
With a high wing airplane, if you feed both tanks into one line and open
the valve
--
Randy Stockberger The people are not *given* freedom by the government.
randys(at)cv.hp.com The people *take* freedom from the government.
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 94 12:07:47 PST
Subject: Re[3]: Comments on manual aileron trim
From: Randy Stockberger <hpcvdz.cv.hp.com!randys(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | To Warren Gretts |
Warren, you called me about the lights you bought.
You need to talk to Dave Wentz. You read the email wrong
and got my phone number. I don't sell lights, I was looking to buy them.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)cyclone.mitre.org (John C. Moody) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage skinning |
I did option A and was pretty pleased with the results. I predrilled
a hole smaller than the #41, had wife on the inside underneath
to backdrill with the same undersize bit and i followed immediatly
with a # 41 from the outside. Cleco, then moved to the next hole.
Backup the backdrilled hole with a piece of wood thick enough so that
an enthusiastic assistant cannot backdrill into your finger!
It takes a lot of clecoes but it seems good to completely drill/clecoe
large assemblies _completely_ if possible without intermediate disassembly to
minimize chances of stuff shifting.
chris moody
Silver Spring Md
RV6 (somewhat dormant at about 1300 hrs)
----- Begin Included Message
Question for those RV6 builders who have already skinned their fuselage
(and possibly RV4 builders, but the RV4 has thicker skins and stronger
stringers)
How did you locate the holes for drilling?? I can think of several ways:
A. Pre-drill the frame, and then back-drill through the skins.
B. Postition the skin, mark the bulkhead/stringer locations on the inside,
remove and drill the skin only, replace on frame, and final drill. (the
Orndof [sp?] video method)
C. Place skin on frame, measure carefully to known reference points, mark
spacing on skin, and drill through skin and frame simultaneously.
Any pros and cons ... or comments???
thanks, Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 .. finally ready to start fuse. skins
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvdz.cv.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel feed - high wing .vs. low wing |
> OK, I'm the dummy. I have never flown a low wing airplane. My time is
> Cessna where we have a both / left / right setting on the fuel manifold
> switch. What is the reason for a left or right only in low wings? Do
> they have a both provision?
--
Finally, a question that I know the answer to...
OK, you have two tanks, one in each wing and one is full and the other
is empty.
On a high wing airplane, the fuel from the full tank will rush down and
feed the engine. Also, depending on plumbing, it may flow back up and
into the empty tank.
On a low wing airplane the fuel won't flow uphill, a fuel pump is needed to
suck up the fuel. If one tank is empty the pump takes the path of least
resistance and sucks air from the empty tank instead of fuel from the
full. To prevent this the designer (be it Piper or Van) don't plumb in
a 'both' setting.
--
Randy Stockberger The people are not *given* freedom by the government.
randys(at)cv.hp.com The people *take* freedom from the government.
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulf(at)eos.ncsu.edu |
| Subject: | Looking for RV-6A |
I've been monitering this list for a while and thought I
would post a note about my RV- intersts.
My ideal aircraft would fulfill the following missions
(in approx. order):
1. fun sport airplane with light acro
2. fly 2 people an day/weekend trips over distances of over 200 miles
cost-effectively
3. fly to meet IFR currency requirements (mine, not just 6/6/6!)
4. useful for the occassional 1-2 person short business trip (=> serious IFR)
5. take 4 people on trips
I rent Cessnas and Pipers right now (and the occassional
Citabria when away from home). Rented Cessnas and Pipers
do not meet missions 1 and 2 well. Though fairly fun, they are not a *load* of
fun and the marginal cost of flying deters going on x-countries
(ie. $100-$200 out of pocket on the day vs. [for
owning an aircraft] `I've already paid the fixed expenses -- now
I'll just spend $70 on a trip).
It seems to me that the right RV-6A would allow me to meet missions 1-3,
and, (possibly) with really generous minimums (e.g. 1000' cieling) part of
mission 4. I would rent, or swap, time for flying in solid IMC and mission 5.
However, there is no way that I could find the hours to build one.
Thus I am considering finding a partner or two and going out an buying
a used one. The plan is as follows:
1. Finish my IA.
2. Talk to anyone and everyone (incl. a local A&P who works on
RV's).
3. Finalize the details on partner(s). (I would prefer at least
one partner to share purchase and fixed costs.)
4. Find a candidate aircraft and go see it.
5. Get it inspected by 1-2 builders/EAA tech. cons. and an A&P.
+title checks, etc (what else?). See if anyone in netland or the local
EAA chapter knows anything about the particular aircraft.
6. If OK, Buy it.
7. Fly it!
I've spoken a lot to a couple of RVators and had a couple of flights
(loved it).
I've read back issues of RVator and have tried to follow this list
(too many posts! - how about a newsgroup instead?)
However, I have some questions that I would like some help on, please:
A. Any general comments or advice, please!
B. Any `gotchas' that I should specifically check on the possible
aircraft. (e.g. did the builder accidently drill the wrong part
of the spar.) I have a feeling that this list is fairly long
and I should compile it carefully. The `gotchas' I've seen in
the few issues of RVator I have seen are already several.
C. What is a fair price? I've seen asking prices ranging from $38k
in the RVator to almost $70k for one aircraft in Trade-A-Plane (TAP).
I want a *safe* *maintainable* flying machine, not a show machine.
I understand that the difference between TAP price and what they really
get are fairly high.
D. I have some concerns about weight and CG limits. With full fuel, basic
IFR instruments, 2x150 pounds in the seats, how much baggage should I be
able to carry?
I understand Van's CG limit is spot-on. What determines the
gross weight limit?
E. Any leads on a good aircraft?
F. One alternative is to buy a fairly complete kit and spend a few hundred
hours finishing it (with the same careful approach as above.) Any comments,
please? I believe this will not give me the repairman's certificate?
Thanks very much in Advance,
Regards,
Paul
PP-ASEL, -G
919 515 7351/919 821 0889
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Construction, Baggage Ribs |
> >(not shiny), but I'm not 100% sure. Also, after thinking about that area
> >of construction, I think I may have had to slightly adjust the position of
> >the foward ends of the ribs to make them fit properly. But I didn't have to
> >modify the ends at all. Also, I used nutplates/screws to secure all the
> >baggage/cabin 'floor' down to the ribs.
>
> Gary .... Did you use #8 screws at the same saping as the pop rivets??
> Making this floor removeable (at least on one side - for antenna
> installation) does seem like a good idea.
>
Gil:
Well, I finally have removed the masking from the fuselage (its painted!).
The spacing between the #8 screws is 2 1/2". Don't recall what the plans
called for (between the poprivets).
Looks like my RV6A will be on hold for the next few months. My company is
sending me to Norway from 11/28/94 --> 4/1/95, with some time home around
Xmas and New Years. Looks like SunNFun may not be in my plans for '95, so
Oshkosh will be my next goal. You may have to wait on the photos of my
assembled, painted plane. Right now its a bunch of red pieces. All in all,
the System3 water-based paints was not quite all I expected. I suspect my
initial problems with the HVLP system was the Sys3. When I switched over to
a regular gun, the improvement was noticeable, but it was hard to get it to
flow well. As a result, it has a 'molty' appearance in my areas. I think
using rubbing compound and elbow-grease will smooth it out. And the final
coat of clearcoat will return the shine. On the positive side, the Sys3 is
very easy to work with and cleanup is almost trivial. And no toxic fumes.
If I were to do it again, I'd probably go the Imron route with a regular gun,
but with a good respirator setup.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Wing fairing attachment ? |
RV Folks
Can any of you tell me if nutplates are supposed to be installed on the
inboard edge of the fuel tank to attach the wing fairing. If so, what
spacing .
I would worry that fooling with this area might put stree on the sealed end
rib causing, down the road of time, a leak along the rib. Any thoughts.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | moody(at)cyclone.mitre.org (John C. Moody) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage skinning |
My undersize bit was small enough and long enough that it could
flex around obstructions (mainly the
fuse ribs) that would otherwse interfere with the backdrilling.
It was small enough that no matter what angle it went thruogh,
the final #41 from outside would always give a round hole.
It also seemed that chips more easily get trapped between skin
and rib when back drilling vs front drilling. Backdrilling with
small bit seemed to minizes this. I don't remember exactly what size bit
i used but i think it was 6" long and i remember breaking a few.
chris moody
RV6
Silver Spring, Md
John,
Thanks for the comments.
Could you explain further why you back-drilled in a two step
process?? I see why the first hole in the frame should be undersize, but
why not drill #41 from inside?? Did you have any difficulties drilling
the #41 holes from the inside??
thanks ..... Gil Alexander
>I did option A and was pretty pleased with the results. I predrilled
>a hole smaller than the #41, had wife on the inside underneath
>to backdrill with the same undersize bit and i followed immediatly
>with a # 41 from the outside. Cleco, then moved to the next hole.
>
>Backup the backdrilled hole with a piece of wood thick enough so that
>an enthusiastic assistant cannot backdrill into your finger!
>
>It takes a lot of clecoes but it seems good to completely drill/clecoe
>large assemblies _completely_ if possible without intermediate disassembly to
>minimize chances of stuff shifting.
>
>chris moody
>Silver Spring Md
>RV6 (somewhat dormant at about 1300 hrs)
>
>----- Begin Included Message
>
>Question for those RV6 builders who have already skinned their fuselage
>(and possibly RV4 builders, but the RV4 has thicker skins and stronger
>stringers)
>
>
>How did you locate the holes for drilling?? I can think of several ways:
>
>A. Pre-drill the frame, and then back-drill through the skins.
>
>B. Postition the skin, mark the bulkhead/stringer locations on the inside,
>remove and drill the skin only, replace on frame, and final drill. (the
>Orndof [sp?] video method)
>
>C. Place skin on frame, measure carefully to known reference points, mark
>spacing on skin, and drill through skin and frame simultaneously.
>
>
>Any pros and cons ... or comments???
>
> thanks, Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 .. finally ready to start fuse. skins
>
>
>
>
>----- End Included Message -----
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Construction, Baggage Ribs |
>
> > All in all,
> > the System3 water-based paints was not quite all I expected. I suspect my
> > initial problems with the HVLP system was the Sys3. When I switched over to
> > a regular gun, the improvement was noticeable, but it was hard to get it to
> > flow well. As a result, it has a 'molty' appearance in my areas. I think
> > using rubbing compound and elbow-grease will smooth it out. And the final
> > coat of clearcoat will return the shine. On the positive side, the Sys3 is
> > very easy to work with and cleanup is almost trivial. And no toxic fumes.
> > If I were to do it again, I'd probably go the Imron route with a regular gun,
> > but with a good respirator setup.
> >
> >
> > Gary B
> >
> Gary:
> Thanks for posting this information. It basically confirmed my feelings
> about System 3 paints.
>
> I was really hoping you would report good results with System 3 paints.
> As I said before, I used their epxoy on my cedar strip canoe and had
> excellent results. Unfortunately, your results seem consistent with
> what Les Williams told me. Have you fed this information back to System
> 3? Maybe they will work some more on the formulation of their paint
> and improve it. I like the idea of a water based paint, but am not
> willing to put up with a lot of extra hassle to get an acceptable paint
> job. It would be nice if they improved it to make it truly usable.
I didn't mean to imply it came out poorly. In fact everything but the fuselage
came out very nice. The problem I had with the fuselage was the fact that most
of the surfaces were not horizontal, faceup. From 3 ft away, you can't see the
slight 'orange peel(?)'. When you get close, you can see it. My wife couldn't
see it until she was right next to it. I sure hate to sound negative about it.
When you get to the point when you are ready to think about painting, buy some
of their primer/topcoat and see how they work with your talent level. For me,
it was important to do the entire job myself. I wonder if all the really
professional RV paint jobs were done by the builder or a pro.
I was told today to let it cure for a couple of months and then go at it
with rubbing compound. Then do the stripping and the clearcoat. With
my going to Norway, this works out fine (I'll touch it up in the Spring, when
I get back home).
One last comment. I ordered the topcoat in gallons (I used three total). The
little vial of cross-linker is added just before (20 minutes) you spray. The
instructions say to use one vial per can of paint. I discovered after
spraying quite a bit, that the instructions were referring to a quart, not
a gallon. So I switched over to the correct proportion, but watch out.
The instructions actually did also refer to drops per ounce, but I missed it;
I only saw the vial per can. The cross-linder provides additional strength
and toughness, so I'm glad I caught it. The final clearcoat will certainly
be mixed properly.
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
Geez!!! Sometimes I absolutely despise email!!!!!!
If you like them you SHOULD use them. I bet they would fit great in the nose
of the wheel pants, there is certainly a lot of unused space in there.
I only meant that given the option many of us builders will take the 'easy
way out' if there is something available that fills a functional need. I am
sure that we all have seen many things on RVs that we think are either real
slick but look like too much effort to do ourselves, or don't seem like great
ideas regardless of the cost/effort.
I hate when email makes correct interpretation of the meaning of replies or
remarks so difficult.
And yes, I DO hate fiberglass (but you're welcome to like it if you wish:-).
There, is that politically correct enough?
dw
ok, OK, OK!!
It was me that suggested the use of the new focused beam headlights. It
was just a suggestion. I'm gonna use them. I'd like to try to incorporate
them into the gear legs, but will probably mount them in the wing tips.
To give everybody a chance to simmer down over this illuminating topic,
here's another neat stereogram. Just stare at your reflection in your
monitor. The characters will go 3d.
V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
N N N N N N N N N N N N N
S S S S S S S S S S S
<<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>><<<<>>>>
R R R R R R R R R R R
V V V V V V V V V V V V V
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 S
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
James Sleigh
Sikorsky Aircraft
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dan_fox(at)ccmail.GSFC.NASA.GOV |
the person who wrote me recently. _Someone_ on this list wrote me and
asked if I would help them paint their -4. I responded (positively!)
to them, and then lost all trace of the transaction.
If you live in Reston, work in Bethesda, and build in Manassas, are
you still interested? Please write again, and this time I promise I'll
write down your name & number!
--dan fox
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave.Bonorden(at)amd.com (Dave Bonorden) |
| Subject: | Portland Area Trip Report |
Long....
The Portland folks might find this a little boring (so
might the rest of you for that matter), but not everyone
on the list is from Portland.
I just returned from a 3 1/2 day tour of Portland, OR area
RV attractions, courtesy of Don Wentz and many other Portland
RVers. Three days is not long enough! Thanks for everything,
Don, although your timing for grounding your airplane is lousy!
Imagine a short-notice trip to a class in Portland, firing
off an email to see if you can meet anyone from the rv-list
while in the area, then getting a return from Don Wentz
saying he's in the same class! I knew this was gonna be
good. I walked into the classroom on Mon morning. Two
students have already arrived, as well as the instructor,
and what's the topic of conversation? Homebuilts already?
I had no problem identifying Don. Not many people get to
utter the "I built..." words. The instructor was interested
in flying also, so aviation was pretty much the standard topic
for class breaks.
For those unfamiliar with Portland, it's beautiful, although
somebody needs to buy them some decent weather! They have
many small airports perfect for sport aviation and lots of
neat landmarks to fly over/around. They're a half-hour's
flight from the Oregon coast, Mt St Helens or Mt Hood and a
little farther to Mt Rainier. Imagine an EAA chapter where
Bill Benedict is Pres and Van and much of his staff attend
regularly. They also have a large, active RV builders group
that probably rivals most EAA chapters in activity.
MON:
The tour started Mon after class with a trip to Twin Oaks
airport. This is a great little one-way paved strip where
the chapter meets and they have regular pancake breakfasts.
Don said that many of the members fly in to the EAA meetings.
It was a very strong argument for having chapter meetings at
an airport, even if the chapter has to pay a little for the
privaledge, rather than meeting at some other free facility.
>From Twin Oaks, we headed over to visit Frank Justice and his
RV-6A project. It won't be long before Frank has something to
sit in and make airplane noises. This was my first look at
the Courtald's primer that seems to be the rage these days.
It's the hardest paint I've seen so far. This was also my first
look at a wing with the one-piece top skins, which are very nice.
Thanks for the wing building instructions, Frank! They look
really helpful.
TUES:
Day 2 was another big day. After class, I followed Don's
directions to Scapoose airport, NW of Portland, to see his RV-6.
This is a nice machine! It would have rated AWESOME if it had
been actually FLYING while I was there :). Talk about bad luck.
I have 3 days to hang around the guy who's put 130 hrs on his RV
since around the first of July and who's known for giving rides
to everyone who looks remotely like they might want a ride.....
...and he has his plane GROUNDED while I'm in town. Probably just
because I work at AMD. Not that the WX was good enough to do anything
anyway :(.
When I arrived at Don's hangar, Mike Wilson was there and took
me to see his RV-4 project in his garage. This was great
because Mike is about halfway into his RV-4 wings, which is
exactly what I needed to see. Mike has the luxury of having a
large enough area to build his wings in parallel. Thanks for
the clues, Mike.
Back to Don's hangar where I got to see a little 'glass work.
heh heh heh. Don was re-glassing his main gear legs (one of
his many reasons for not having the -6 flying) and trying to
keep them warm enough to cure. It was a great chance to
check out his O-360 installation and the fuel injection system.
Looks nice! Dick Anderson walked down from his hangar and.....I
had a chance to see yet ANOTHER RV! Dick keeps his -4 hangared
near Don, so I walked over with him to drool over his toy. We
spent quite a while discussing the virtues of sitting on the
aircraft centerline with the stick in your right hand and the
throttle in your left hand...
Back to Don's again where he at least had a few big flood lights
for heat (it was cold around there by Texas standards). He
showed me his Duckworks lights - which look like they're the
perfect landing/taxi light solution to me - and described his
flying commute to work in Hillsboro. I think that your life
takes a drastic change when you have a plane like an RV ready
to go fly at a moment's notice. Doing a few slow rolls on the
way to work might improve one's attitude.
WED:
On Wed, we got out of class early so I went with Don to check out
alternate light bulb sources and sample some of the local beer for
lunch. Don was feeling guilty and was making noises about going
back to work, so I took off for North Plains. Van's Aircraft
was about what I expected. A small, not-too-fancy place where
everybody is busy. I arrived right before closing, so Tom gave
me a quick tour of the main building and I hand carried some info
to Andy Hanna over at the Skunk Works. They were shutting down,
too, but Ken gave me a quick walk-around and I had a chance to talk
briefly to Andy about their plans for strain gauge data acquistion.
I had to go, too, because I had an appointment at Randall Henderson's.
It was too wet to do any flying :(
If I were as dedicated as Randall, I'd be flying my RV-4 by now!
When you start with a single car garage so small you have to expand
it's length, that's dedication. This guy is LIVING sport aviation.
In addition to his own project and helping with the RV-3 prototype
restoration, he appears to be the resident shirt designer for the
builder's group and the chapter. Which was nice because I was
able to get one of the Portland RVator shirts. :) Jean appears
to be a great builder's wife - hubby's headed off to do airplane
stuff again - no problem. Randall was debating whether to go help
Gary Standley and Rion Bourgeois on the RV-3 prototype restoration
project. I was up for looking at more RV projects so...........
Gary has a great shop. Gary, I still can't believe you've only
had a single 15 min ride in an RV after building a -4 and all
the other RV work you've done. Rion arrived shortly after Randall
and me and we all got busy checking wing alignment and drilling
the spar attach holes in the bulkhead (crooked holes in my case).
Looking at the pictures of the RV-3 after the accident was enough
to make a guy get serious about fuel systems and knowing your
fuel state. After chasing one of Rion's beers with a DQ Blizzard,
it was time to go home.
THURS:
I had to be back at work Fri, and 1:45 pm was the latest flight
back to Austin, so I basically had Thurs morning to go back to
Van's and buy a few things and, hopefully hang around the skunk
works a little. I could'nt remember what I needed, but I was
sure I needed to buy SOMETHING from Van's. Once I got there,
no problem. I picked up a copy of the new video and the "14 yrs
of RVator" book and a new T shirt. That should take care of me
for a while. BTW, who's the guy near the end of the new video
wearing the shades and the Scapoose T-shirt? I've seen him
somewhere before.
I went back to the skunk works and got Andy to give me another
tour, since my previous tour was a little hurried and I didn't
even get to see all most of the airplanes or the strip. This
was alot better and was my first look at the yellow -6A with
the constant cord HS. We went back inside and had a great
converstion with Van and Andy about the homebuilt industry.
I've never talked to Van away from a fly-in/crowd before.
I recommend it.
Feeling guilty for wasting so much of Van's and Andy's time,
I took off to find Jerry Herrold's shop, hoping to get a look
at those new upswept wingtips. I found Jerry, but he didn't
have any of the new wingtips. He said there's been alot of
interest in them, but he doesn't expect to deliver any before
the end of the year or so. Jerry showed me all his molds for
spinners, wingtips, CS tips, fairings, etc and I smelled enough
polyester resin to last a while. While I was there, he got a
call from some guy in central Texas who was building two Harmon
Rockets and was asking about the new wingtips! Wonder who
THAT could have been!?
Heading back to PDX, I decided I had time to go check out
Evergreen Airpark across the river. I didn't have time to
stay long, and the wind was really getting cold, but I did
walk out amongst all the old taildraggers there and watch a
Taylorcraft try to tear up the pattern a little. Then it was
off to PDX and then on to Texas. I managed to log a great view
of Mt Hood, Mt Adams, Mt St Helens and Mt Rainier all at once
as we were climbing out of PDX (yes, I bought a Seattle
sectional). Gotta be pleased with that! Nothing compares to
flying out west!
Many thanks to all my new friends in the Portland area!
Thanks for making me feel welcome, even if I am an AMD puke.:)
You're all welcome here in Austin if ever coming through on a
XC. Don, special thanks to you for shuffling me around. I'm
looking forward to returning via the only appropriate mode of
transportation.
TRIP RESULTS:
rv-list members met (in order of appearance)
-------------------
Don Wentz
Frank Justice
Mike Wilson
Randall Henderson
Gary Standley
Rion Bourgeois
sorry I missed you, Earl.
RVs/projects visited
-------------------
Frank Justice RV-6A
Don Wentz RV-6
Mike Wilson RV-4
Dick Anderson RV-4
Randall Henderson RV-6X
Gary Standley/ RV-3 Prototype Restoration
EAA Chapter
Van's Aircraft all protos were home
Airports Visted
---------------
Twin Oaks
Scapoose (can't remember if I'm spelling this right or not)
Sunset
Evergreen
PDX (didn't know there was a guard unit flying F-15s around there!)
Oh, I almost forgot. I also spent three days in some class.
Now what happens in the Y? pipe ? ...........
Dave Bonorden
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Portland Area Trip Report |
Nice report Dave, glad we could show you around some. I DID get some snide
remarks from some co-workers when they found-out I was 'hanging-out' with "an
AMD puke"!
Not a problem tho, we confined our conversations to something more interesting:
RVs!
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Text item: Text_1
RV-builders (and for the newletter Randall), while in Livermore an RV-6
builder (Gary VanRemortel) told me about a latch that can be used on the
oil dipstick access door. It's a push to release type, that may be
easier to implement than the hidden hinge-pin design I used. This will
eliminate those unsightly exposed latches supplied in the kits, and make
opening the door more convenient.
He found it as a part supplied by Skystar for the Kitfox he built a
while back.
Camlock - KM610-64
available through Skystar or Barco
Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: Landing lights expose' |
And why do they call builders groups the "so and so chapter of Van's AIR FORCE".
Maybe enough RVer's will get fed up with the FAA acting more and more like
the IRS (come to think of it maybe RVer's will get fed up with the IRS as
well) and plan a massive air strike. After all, the poor unfortunate chap
who proved you can't land a -152 on the White House lawn proved the air
defenses in DC are pretty loose and the FAA HQ building is only a 1/2 mile
or so from Hillary's bedroom.
Maybe you are on to something - but I can't really see Don W. as a
conspirator...
Richard
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Landing lights expose' |
Not a conspirator, just thinking along the same lines as the
designers of the go fast XP-51 and the RV series!
Actually, did all of you recognise that "expose" as 'tongue-in-cheek"
and just for fun? I know that is how the writer intended it. But
when I shared-it with some of my friends (not rv-ers) they thought
the writer was a real jerk and shouldn't talk about me that way.
I assured them I found it quite entertaining, not the least bit
offensive. Just another example of how difficult humor can be to
convey in e-mail. A little 'friendly chiding' can quickly blow-up
into a flaming disaster.
Anyway, enough on that. The main thing wrong with the 'plan'
outlined below is that we would scratch our beloved RVs! Can't have
that!
dw
And why do they call builders groups the "so and so chapter of Van's
AIR FORCE".
Maybe enough RVer's will get fed up with the FAA acting more and more like
the IRS (come to think of it maybe RVer's will get fed up with the IRS as
well) and plan a massive air strike. After all, the poor unfortunate chap
who proved you can't land a -152 on the White House lawn proved the air
defenses in DC are pretty loose and the FAA HQ building is only a 1/2 mile
or so from Hillary's bedroom.
Maybe you are on to something - but I can't really see Don W. as a
conspirator...
Richard
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: Landing lights expose' |
Text item:
Yea, if ya' didn't know better you'd think it was written by some
Philadelphia lawyer.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[2]: Landing lights expose'
Date: 11/22/94 3:34 PM
Not a conspirator, just thinking along the same lines as the
designers of the go fast XP-51 and the RV series!
Actually, did all of you recognise that "expose" as 'tongue-in-cheek"
and just for fun? I know that is how the writer intended it. But
when I shared-it with some of my friends (not rv-ers) they thought
the writer was a real jerk and shouldn't talk about me that way.
I assured them I found it quite entertaining, not the least bit
offensive. Just another example of how difficult humor can be to
convey in e-mail. A little 'friendly chiding' can quickly blow-up
into a flaming disaster.
Anyway, enough on that. The main thing wrong with the 'plan'
outlined below is that we would scratch our beloved RVs! Can't have
that!
dw
And why do they call builders groups the "so and so chapter of Van's
AIR FORCE".
Maybe enough RVer's will get fed up with the FAA acting more and more like
the IRS (come to think of it maybe RVer's will get fed up with the IRS as
well) and plan a massive air strike. After all, the poor unfortunate chap
who proved you can't land a -152 on the White House lawn proved the air
defenses in DC are pretty loose and the FAA HQ building is only a 1/2 mile
or so from Hillary's bedroom.
Maybe you are on to something - but I can't really see Don W. as a
conspirator...
Richard
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re[2]: Landing lights expose'
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 14:31:05 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Bloomberg <dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu> |
| Subject: | ? on Pro Spinner |
> From <(at)mail.uunet.ca:terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com> Thu Nov 3 08:53:34 1994
> To: dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu
> Subject: rv-list
> From: terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com (Terrance Jantzi)
> Message-Id: <60.27778.104.0C1B9DEF(at)canrem.com>
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:12:00 -0500
> Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario)
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I am having some difficulty in get any mail to the rv-list. I have lost
> the original addresses that you gave me. I have been trying to send to
> rv-list(at)matronics.com but have seen nuthin. You are my only window to
> the group at this point, so
> I have a question for you. At Oshkosh 94 I
> saw Keith Livingston's RV-6, and he had a really nice spinner mounted
> that had no external attach hardware. I think maybe he designed it
> himself, but I am not sure. Do you know how I can contact him? Its not
> for me but for Gord Baxter who is changing his prop again.
>
> Thanks
> Terry
>
This from Terry who seems to have a problem getting the mailer across the
border. Must be the cold and snow of the North...
Any posts which can help him communicate or answer the question about the
spinner I will repost to Terry.
Thanks..
Doug Bloomberg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | HS skeleton: order of assembly? |
I'm about to assemble the horizontal stabilizer skeleton,
and it appears that the order of assembly in the Orndorff
video makes more sense than that found in the construction
manual, particularly with regards to the front spar.
The construction manual says to drill and cleco the
HS-610 and HS-614 center splices to the HS-602 spar
channels AFTER the HS-602's are mounted on the ribs.
The Orndorff video, on the other hand, does this
drilling and clecoing FIRST.
It seems to me that the latter method is better.
For one thing, it appears to make spanwise alignment
of the forward spar a lot easier and more accurate,
since the whole spar can be laid out on a flat surface
and a centerline drawn down it.
It also appears to make the task of accurately mating
the front spar to the ribs a lot easier.
Because "Barnhart's Law" is: "The wheel has already
been invented", I'm interested in knowing:
1. Are there hidden gotchas I should look out for if
I align and drill the HS-610 and HS-614 center
splices to the HS-602 spar channels BEFORE mounting
the forward spar in the jig for mating to the ribs?
2. Has anyone come up with yet another order of
assembly that works even better?
Thanks in advance,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 SN 23744
emennage under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ? on Pro Spinner |
Jerry Herrold in North Plains OR makes a spinner like the one you described.
What prop is he changing to/from this time?
dw
> From <(at)mail.uunet.ca:terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com> Thu Nov 3 08:53:34 1994
> To: dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu
> Subject: rv-list
> From: terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com (Terrance Jantzi)
> Message-Id: <60.27778.104.0C1B9DEF(at)canrem.com>
> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:12:00 -0500
> Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario)
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> I am having some difficulty in get any mail to the rv-list. I have lost
> the original addresses that you gave me. I have been trying to send to
> rv-list(at)matronics.com but have seen nuthin. You are my only window to
> the group at this point, so
> I have a question for you. At Oshkosh 94 I
> saw Keith Livingston's RV-6, and he had a really nice spinner mounted
> that had no external attach hardware. I think maybe he designed it
> himself, but I am not sure. Do you know how I can contact him? Its not
> for me but for Gord Baxter who is changing his prop again.
>
> Thanks
> Terry
>
This from Terry who seems to have a problem getting the mailer across the
border. Must be the cold and snow of the North...
Any posts which can help him communicate or answer the question about the
spinner I will repost to Terry.
Thanks..
Doug Bloomberg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing fairing attachment ? |
> RV Folks
>
> Can any of you tell me if nutplates are supposed to be installed on the
> inboard edge of the fuel tank to attach the wing fairing. If so, what
> spacing .
>
> I would worry that fooling with this area might put stree on the sealed end
> rib causing, down the road of time, a leak along the rib. Any thoughts.
>
> Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
> Whidbey RV-ators
> Coupeville, WA
> (finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
>
Yes nutplates are supposed to go there, I've seen them different
spacing but most seem to be 2 - 2.5". That's what the extra skin
protruding past the end rib is for. I haven't done mine yet, don't
plan to until I can do it with the fairings in place, so I don't have
to worry about lining up the holes.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com |
| Subject: | Wing Ribs, Paint, and 'the list' |
I just finished reading the latest RVaviator and have a few questions and
comments.
First, I notice Van is now notching the main and leading edge ribs to
exactly fit the spar. I was wondering if this might have been done to
hinder builders making the Harmon Rocket mods. The rocket uses a RV-4
wing kit, but locates the ribs at different stations. I know this addition
helps the standard builders, but I just wonder if there was another reason...?
Second, I notice the nifty paint schemes in the photos. A RV-4 builder
coworker has brought up a good point. How do you lay out the masking
down the sides of the nose so they are straight down the fuse? The
rounded cheeks of the cowling seem to cause troubles.
What are the tricks to get straight lines down the sides of the fuse??
And lastly, I was surprised to see a mention of a computer bbs and not
even a hint about this great list!! How about one of you guys close to
Van mentioning it to him..??! The more the merrier.
Keep on rivetin'
James Sleigh
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gretzw(at)tcplink.nrel.gov |
| Subject: | Pitot tube source |
I have been looking for a heated pitot tube to use on my
RV-6. Several RVers have said that the Piper "slab" or
"blade" type is the one to use. It must be 12 volt and
working. I have found several at a local aviation junk yard
but none work. The wires are pulled out.
I was also told of a person at Oshkosh selling this type of
pitot that was new for $35.
Anyone with any info on a source of new or used, let me
know.
Warren Gretz, Denver
gretzw(at)tcplink.nrel.gov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Ribs, Paint, and 'the list' |
James Sleigh wrote:
>I just finished reading the latest RVaviator and have a few questions and
>comments.
>
>First, I notice Van is now notching the main and leading edge ribs to
>exactly fit the spar. I was wondering if this might have been done to
>hinder builders making the Harmon Rocket mods. The rocket uses a RV-4
wing kit, but locates the ribs at different stations. I know this addition
>helps the standard builders, but I just wonder if there was another reason...?
I doubt it, it's easy and not that expensive to order extra ribs,
either with the notch depths you need, or the outboard ribs which
aren't pre-notched anyway. Either way, this seems like a really nice
addition to the kits, I wish they were doing that that when I bought
MY kit.
[snip]
>
> And lastly, I was surprised to see a mention of a computer bbs and not
> even a hint about this great list!! How about one of you guys close to
> Van mentioning it to him..??! The more the merrier.
I've been trying for a while to get Ken Scott (who edits the RVator) to
get an internet account, but it's like pushing a string. Ken's kind of
a technophobe, he likes to tell people he doesn't own a TV, VCR or
answering machine, and keeps threatening to disconnect his phone, but
he also says he'd like to get on the Internet. I have provided him with
the information he needs to get set up with a cheap local account and
hook up to the rv-list, I'm surprised he didn't say anything about it
in the RVator. Maybe he still doesn't quite understand the difference
between the internet and a BBS. I'll keep working on him.
By the way, Tom Green IS on the internet (through Compuserve), and is
subscribed to the rv-list, or was until recently when his modem died.
I was talking to him about this the other day and asked him why he
never posts responses, and he said the sheer volume of traffic from the
rv-list gets in the way. We discussed this and he said that when he
gets back on he'd post a message asking that any questions that we'd
like him to look at have some specific keyword embedded in the subject
line, so he doesn't have to plow through all our conversational junk
and mud-slinging.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
So there IS progress....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Alum. cutting question |
RV list craftsmen .....
During the fitting of my first 2 fuselage skins, I discovered that
Van had sent them slightly oversize. I had to trim 3/32 to 1/4 inch off
the edge of the rear side skin. This involved trimming a long (6+ foot)
straight line. Not having a 8 ft. power shear handy, I cut it with my
trusty Wiss Offset metal cutters.
I did not seem to be able to make a long straight cut in 0.025
sheet without getting "puckering" along the cut edge. I trimmed a first
cut to within 1/8 inch of final, and then made a final cut, removing this
1/8 strip. Cleanup was made with a 3 inch piece of Vixen file with a wood
handle glued on it's back (a most useful tool, works just like a wood
plane).
While this worked, I still got some "puckering" of the cut edge.
Since these edges are going to be covered by overlapping skins, this is of
no worry at this time, but I got to wonder if there is a better way of
trimming skins, just in case the future cuts are at visible edges, or is my
cutting technique wrong? This problem seems more prevalent on the thinner
0.025 skins, and did not show up on the 0.040 tailcone skin.
Anyone have a better way of doing this that doesn't include a
$10,000+ computer controlled power shear??
thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
...... fitted 2 fuselage skins, it's even starting to look
like a plane now! At least to me!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: HS skeleton: order of assembly? |
Dave,
I assembled my HS skeleton using VAN's method and got good results. However,
after watching the Orndorf video ("remember to clecoe after drilling each
hole, blah, blah, blah,....") I would suggest that method because of the
benefits you state. Remember though, not to drill out the ends of the HS
610/614 until they are bent as the alignment will change after bending.
Shawn Chaney
Fremont, OH
HS, VS, Now the Rudder.... (RV-6A)
-------------------------------------------------
In his article Dave Barnhart says:
The construction manual says to drill and cleco the
HS-610 and HS-614 center splices to the HS-602 spar
channels AFTER the HS-602's are mounted on the ribs.
The Orndorff video, on the other hand, does this
drilling and clecoing FIRST.
It seems to me that the latter method is better.
For one thing, it appears to make spanwise alignment
of the forward spar a lot easier and more accurate,
since the whole spar can be laid out on a flat surface
and a centerline drawn down it.
It also appears to make the task of accurately mating
the front spar to the ribs a lot easier.
________________________________________________________________________________
<9411282235.AA00377(at)edt.edt.com>
| From: | Steve Harris <steveha(at)tailslide.PEN.TEK.COM> |
> [snip]
> >
> > And lastly, I was surprised to see a mention of a computer bbs and not
> > even a hint about this great list!! How about one of you guys close to
> > Van mentioning it to him..??! The more the merrier.
>
> I've been trying for a while to get Ken S> cott (who edits the RVator) to
> get an internet account, but it's like pushing a string. Ken's kind of
> a technophobe, he likes to tell people he doesn't own a TV, VCR or
> answering machine, and keeps threatening to disconnect his phone, but
> he also says he'd like to get on the Internet. I have provided him with
> the information he needs to get set up with a cheap local account and
> hook up to the rv-list, I'm surprised he didn't say anything about it
> in the RVator. Maybe he still doesn't quite understand the difference
> between the internet and a BBS. I'll keep working on him.
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6X
>
BTW,
I've been talking to Ken Scott about this as well, trying to push the
idea. It seems that the fear from Van's as told by Ken is that
participation in such a forum (internet rv-list) would take relatively
a large investment in time, yet reach a small percentage of RV builders....
So... what Ken would really like to know, is how many builders, potential
builders etc really have access to and would use an electronic forum
of some sort. I thought he was going to publish a question to that
effect in the RVator but missed it if he did.
>
> So there IS progress....
We need to make our numbers known if Van's is going to have any serious
interest in an electronic forum.
Lurker and intermittent RV builder-
Steve Harris
DPL HW Engineering
627-2454 Voice
627-5548 Fax
email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM Public Key Available
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: 'the list' |
All
.... perhaps the key here is to stress the link from this newslist
into the various builders groups around the country? This would greatly
expand the percieved number of builders benefited.
Stress to Ken that articles from here get copied into newsletters
all over the country (and outside the US?). I personally was surprised
when something I wrote appeared in a newsletter that our local editor got
on an exchange basis (it's OK, I got a writer's credit!). Any interesting
notes I write or receive in this newsgroup, I pass on to our local
newsletter editor. One general purpose article I wrote got into my local
EAA chapter newsletter.
Lets list all of these links ... { I'll start the list going }
Gil Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com
-- linked to the "South Bay RVator" newsletter (Los Angeles, CA. area),
Dave Hull editor, about 15 active builders, also linked to a UK builder.
Published 4 to 8 times a year, plus workshop visits/get-togethers.
-- member EAA Chapter 40, Van Nuys, CA. 3 active RV builders. Monthly
meetings plus other activities.
REQUEST: can we get one of the Portland guys to "volunteer" to collect all
of these links and take them in to Ken or Van???
>> [snip]
>> >
>> > And lastly, I was surprised to see a mention of a computer bbs and not
>> > even a hint about this great list!! How about one of you guys close to
>> > Van mentioning it to him..??! The more the merrier.
>>
>> I've been trying for a while to get Ken Scott (who edits the RVator) to
>> get an internet account, but it's like pushing a string. Ken's kind of
>> a technophobe, he likes to tell people he doesn't own a TV, VCR or
>> answering machine, and keeps threatening to disconnect his phone, but
>> he also says he'd like to get on the Internet. I have provided him with
>> the information he needs to get set up with a cheap local account and
>> hook up to the rv-list, I'm surprised he didn't say anything about it
>> in the RVator. Maybe he still doesn't quite understand the difference
>> between the internet and a BBS. I'll keep working on him.
>>
>> Randall Henderson
>> RV-6X
>>
>
>BTW,
>
>I've been talking to Ken Scott about this as well, trying to push the
>idea. It seems that the fear from Van's as told by Ken is that
>participation in such a forum (internet rv-list) would take relatively
>a large investment in time, yet reach a small percentage of RV builders....
>
>So... what Ken would really like to know, is how many builders, potential
>builders etc really have access to and would use an electronic forum
>of some sort. I thought he was going to publish a question to that
>effect in the RVator but missed it if he did.
>>
>> So there IS progress....
>
>We need to make our numbers known if Van's is going to have any serious
>interest in an electronic forum.
>
>Lurker and intermittent RV builder-
>Steve Harris
>DPL HW Engineering
>627-2454 Voice
>627-5548 Fax
>email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM Public Key Available
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alum. cutting question |
Text item:
I have used a die grinder with a cut off wheel. I clamp the large sheet
on my bench under a full length piece of door skin (1/4" thick finished
plywood cut 6" wide and to the length of the planned cut). Clamp the
sheet so only a couple inches along the edge to be cut are exposed.
Trim slowly to avoid warping. Trim 1/8" to 1/16" short of the target
line. Carefully finish trimming to the target line with a file while
wearing gloves.
I know this is crude and can be very nerve racking but with a little
practice it works just fine. The key word is practice (on something you
don't want). It's really not that bad and I get clean edges. However,
if there are better ways without expensive tools I would be interested.
MikeW
RV-4, gooing the tanks
------------------------------------------------------
RV list craftsmen .....
During the fitting of my first 2 fuselage skins, I discovered that
Van had sent them slightly oversize. I had to trim 3/32 to 1/4 inch off
the edge of the rear side skin. This involved trimming a long (6+ foot)
straight line. Not having a 8 ft. power shear handy, I cut it with my
trusty Wiss Offset metal cutters.
I did not seem to be able to make a long straight cut in 0.025
sheet without getting "puckering" along the cut edge. I trimmed a first
cut to within 1/8 inch of final, and then made a final cut, removing this
1/8 strip. Cleanup was made with a 3 inch piece of Vixen file with a wood
handle glued on it's back (a most useful tool, works just like a wood
plane).
While this worked, I still got some "puckering" of the cut edge.
Since these edges are going to be covered by overlapping skins, this is of
no worry at this time, but I got to wonder if there is a better way of
trimming skins, just in case the future cuts are at visible edges, or is my
cutting technique wrong? This problem seems more prevalent on the thinner
0.025 skins, and did not show up on the 0.040 tailcone skin.
Anyone have a better way of doing this that doesn't include a
$10,000+ computer controlled power shear??
thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
...... fitted 2 fuselage skins, it's even starting to look
like a plane now! At least to me!!
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Alum. cutting question
From: rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 12:47:43 -0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gratclif(at)magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gregory W. Ratcliff) |
I'm sure Van knows about the list...He had a few comments about it
during the Fredrick RV fly in this summer.
gwr
Gregory W. Ratcliff
Columbus, Ohio ICBM
In the Air N1697X
On the Air NZ8R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au |
| Subject: | Re: Alum. cutting question |
Hi Gil,
I use a Laminex cutter in my router. Noisy but works great!! Just be sure to use
a bit of plastic under the router plate to stop the base plate from scratching
the metal. I have also used the router to cut out the curves on the Canopy
skirts on an RV6.
Have a go!
Regards
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Alum. cutting question
Date: 28/11/94 12:47 PM
RV list craftsmen .....
During the fitting of my first 2 fuselage skins, I discovered that
Van had sent them slightly oversize. I had to trim 3/32 to 1/4 inch off
the edge of the rear side skin. This involved trimming a long (6+ foot)
straight line. Not having a 8 ft. power shear handy, I cut it with my
trusty Wiss Offset metal cutters.
I did not seem to be able to make a long straight cut in 0.025
sheet without getting "puckering" along the cut edge. I trimmed a first
cut to within 1/8 inch of final, and then made a final cut, removing this
1/8 strip. Cleanup was made with a 3 inch piece of Vixen file with a wood
handle glued on it's back (a most useful tool, works just like a wood
plane).
While this worked, I still got some "puckering" of the cut edge.
Since these edges are going to be covered by overlapping skins, this is of
no worry at this time, but I got to wonder if there is a better way of
trimming skins, just in case the future cuts are at visible edges, or is my
cutting technique wrong? This problem seems more prevalent on the thinner
0.025 skins, and did not show up on the 0.040 tailcone skin.
Anyone have a better way of doing this that doesn't include a
$10,000+ computer controlled power shear??
thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
...... fitted 2 fuselage skins, it's even starting to look
like a plane now! At least to me!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richards(at)sofkin.ca (Mark Richardson) |
| Subject: | Re: 'the list' and Caveat Emptor |
[snip]
>>
>> And lastly, I was surprised to see a mention of a computer bbs and not
>> even a hint about this great list!! How about one of you guys close to
>> Van mentioning it to him..??! The more the merrier.
>
>I've been trying for a while to get Ken Scott (who edits the RVator) to
>get an internet account, but it's like pushing a string. Ken's kind of
>a technophobe, he likes to tell people he doesn't own a TV, VCR or
>answering machine, and keeps threatening to disconnect his phone, but
>he also says he'd like to get on the Internet. I have provided him with
>the information he needs to get set up with a cheap local account and
>hook up to the rv-list, I'm surprised he didn't say anything about it
>in the RVator. Maybe he still doesn't quite understand the difference
>between the internet and a BBS. I'll keep working on him.
>
[snip]
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6X
>
I recently faxed in my subscription for the RVator (and a calender) and
as a post script mentioned the group, what we talked about, and how to
subscribe (rv-list-request(at)matronics.com I hope). I suggested that maybe
they might want to put it in the next RVator.
On a totally different vein, I bought (what I thought was) a completed tail
kit for an RV-6 off of a guy a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I was
neither in the right frame of mind, nor had a frigging clue what to look
for, so I bought it. $500 Cdn. got me the kit, plans, back issues of RVator,
a few hundred clecos, Tatco squeezers, that long-armed dimpler/riveter of
Averys, and some other odds and sods. A great deal, right ?
I had my buddy John have a look at it a few months later (we lived 1000
miles apart) and he was, well...., underwhelmed. He is building an RV-4
(he is also a member of the list) and theoretically knows what he is talking
about.
The elevators are junk, the rudder isn't much better, the guy who built
it drilled the rivet holes in the vertical stab crooked, such that they
start in the middle of the spar and work their way out in to the middle of
the skin, and on, and on, and on.....
My reason for relating this is to say that if you are thinking of buying a
partially completed kit, get someone who knows RV construction, or any
other all metal construction aircraft, to go with you. Otherwise, after
two years of waffling over whether or not to fix the kit or buy a new
one, you will be ordering a new kit like me. (Hey, at least I have a
practice horizontal stab to skin !!)
Later
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca K2S 1E7 *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - 1506 *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)etm4862.orl.mmc.com |
| Subject: | Subscribe to RV builders list |
I would like to subscribe to the RV builders list.
Thanks
Harold
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Alum. cutting question |
I've never tried a piece as long as the fuse skin, but I have been
successful at cutting smaller parts by sandwiching .032 sheet between two
pieces of "particle board" and cutting them with a Radial Arm saw. The
longest cut I've tried was about 18" long. It turned out pretty smooth. For
a 6+' cut a table saw using particle board might work.
Just a thought.
>RV list craftsmen .....
>
> During the fitting of my first 2 fuselage skins, I discovered that
>Van had sent them slightly oversize. I had to trim 3/32 to 1/4 inch off
>the edge of the rear side skin. This involved trimming a long (6+ foot)
>straight line. Not having a 8 ft. power shear handy, I cut it with my
>trusty Wiss Offset metal cutters.
>
> I did not seem to be able to make a long straight cut in 0.025
>sheet without getting "puckering" along the cut edge. I trimmed a first
>cut to within 1/8 inch of final, and then made a final cut, removing this
>1/8 strip. Cleanup was made with a 3 inch piece of Vixen file with a wood
>handle glued on it's back (a most useful tool, works just like a wood
>plane).
>
> While this worked, I still got some "puckering" of the cut edge.
>Since these edges are going to be covered by overlapping skins, this is of
>no worry at this time, but I got to wonder if there is a better way of
>trimming skins, just in case the future cuts are at visible edges, or is my
>cutting technique wrong? This problem seems more prevalent on the thinner
>0.025 skins, and did not show up on the 0.040 tailcone skin.
>
> Anyone have a better way of doing this that doesn't include a
>$10,000+ computer controlled power shear??
>
>
> thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
>
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Laurence York <woodyork(at)indirect.com> |
| Subject: | Subcribe RV6 Mailing List |
Subscribe rv-list
Thanks
Woody york
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randyt(at)rmii.com (Randy Treadwell) |
Hi,
I would like to be added to the list of RV builders. I have a RV-6A tail
kit and have not made nuch porgress. In the devner area we have 35 or so
under construction and about 12 flying from RV-3's to the later kits. We
are having a meeting this Sat. to form a better group of builders. EAA
chapters 301, 43, and 60 something are where most of the local builders
come from.
:-} Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Alum. cutting question |
RV folks,
Gil's experience with .025 was similar to mine when cutting the wing skins.
I used some large metal shears with smooth cutting jaws and still had a
small problem with warping. What I have thought about in the future is to
use a table top band saw and set up a guide fence to control the depth of
cut. I also used a small vixen file for most of the rough edge work I do.
Usually finish off with a very fine (small) file I obtained at Boeing Surplus.
Since I have lots more to cut I too would like other ideas.
>RV list craftsmen .....
>
> During the fitting of my first 2 fuselage skins, I discovered that
>Van had sent them slightly oversize. I had to trim 3/32 to 1/4 inch off
>the edge of the rear side skin. This involved trimming a long (6+ foot)
>straight line. Not having a 8 ft. power shear handy, I cut it with my
>trusty Wiss Offset metal cutters.
>
> I did not seem to be able to make a long straight cut in 0.025
>sheet without getting "puckering" along the cut edge. I trimmed a first
>cut to within 1/8 inch of final, and then made a final cut, removing this
>1/8 strip. Cleanup was made with a 3 inch piece of Vixen file with a wood
>handle glued on it's back (a most useful tool, works just like a wood
>plane).
>
> While this worked, I still got some "puckering" of the cut edge.
>Since these edges are going to be covered by overlapping skins, this is of
>no worry at this time, but I got to wonder if there is a better way of
>trimming skins, just in case the future cuts are at visible edges, or is my
>cutting technique wrong? This problem seems more prevalent on the thinner
>0.025 skins, and did not show up on the 0.040 tailcone skin.
>
> Anyone have a better way of doing this that doesn't include a
>$10,000+ computer controlled power shear??
>
>
> thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
>
> ...... fitted 2 fuselage skins, it's even starting to look
> like a plane now! At least to me!!
>
>
>
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: 'the list' |
>All
> .... perhaps the key here is to stress the link from this newslist
>into the various builders groups around the country? This would greatly
>expand the percieved number of builders benefited.
> Stress to Ken that articles from here get copied into newsletters
>all over the country (and outside the US?). I personally was surprised
>
> Lets list all of these links ... { I'll start the list going }
>
>Gil Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com
> -- linked to the "South Bay RVator" newsletter (Los Angeles, CA. area),
>Dave Hull editor, about 15 active builders, also linked to a UK builder.
>Published 4 to 8 times a year, plus workshop visits/get-togethers.
> -- member EAA Chapter 40, Van Nuys, CA. 3 active RV builders. Monthly
>meetings plus other activities.
>
>
>REQUEST: can we get one of the Portland guys to "volunteer" to collect all
>of these links and take them in to Ken or Van???
>
>
>>> [snip]
Add to the list the Whidbey RVators (Whidbey Island located north of Seattle)
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | K.S.THOM(at)eworld.com |
| Subject: | New eMail Address |
Please change my eMail address so that I can continue to receive the postings
on the RV bulletin board.
from: KTHOM(at)GSFCMAIL.GSFC.NASA.GOV
to: K.S.THOM(at)EWORLD.COM
Thanks very much.
Kenneth (Ken) Thom
RV-6A #22360
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
It was suggested about two weeks ago that we change to using
a USENET group. I agree with this for the following reasons.
1) The email traffic is getting quite large.
We are now talking about adding more groups.
2) I get a lot of 'bounced back' mail for various reasons.
3) I like to be able to look at the postings at the end of the
day (after business) and not have to see all the email traffic
during the day.
4) USENET groups are set up to do exactly this type of Bulletin Board
traffic. You can still use email to reply or 'post' your answers
to the group.
Do subscribers to AOL, compuserve, etc. have access to USENET?
I would assume they do. I use 'xrn' on unix to access the news groups.
We could call the group rec.aviation.rv_builders.
Can we get some feedback and then make a decision on this and just do it?
Thanks, Herman
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | boatright thomas reginald <trboatri(at)ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> |
| Subject: | homebuilts (rv-4) |
As there are not to many rv builders in my area please
add me to your list. I would welcome anew source of
information & willing to share what I know.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dougm(at)physio.wa.com (Doug Medema) |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
My company is no longer giving us access to any rec.*, soc.*, or alt.*
newsgroups. Moving the rv-list to a USENET group and deleting the
mailing list would remove my opportunity to see the postings.
If the moving to a USENET group would mean the demise of the mailing
list, I would oppose the move. However, if the mailing list could
be used to forward the posts on to those who don't have access to
USENET groups, than going to a USENET group might be a good idea.
Thanks. Doug Medema.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
Text item: Text_1
It is handier for me like it is.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: 'the list' |
>
>REQUEST: can we get one of the Portland guys to "volunteer" to collect all
>of these links and take them in to Ken or Van???
>
I'll do that. So far I have:
- Don Meehan - Whidbey Rvators
- Gil Alexander - South Bay RVators, EAA Ch 40
- Randall Henderson - Portland RVators (N.L. Editor), EAA CH 105
- Rion Bourgeois - EAA CH 105 (President)
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
>--------------
> It was suggested about two weeks ago that we change to using
> a USENET group. I agree with this for the following reasons.
>
> 1) The email traffic is getting quite large.
> We are now talking about adding more groups.
> 2) I get a lot of 'bounced back' mail for various reasons.
> 3) I like to be able to look at the postings at the end of the
> day (after business) and not have to see all the email traffic
> during the day.
> 4) USENET groups are set up to do exactly this type of Bulletin Board
> traffic. You can still use email to reply or 'post' your answers
> to the group.
>
> Do subscribers to AOL, compuserve, etc. have access to USENET?
> I would assume they do. I use 'xrn' on unix to access the news groups.
>
> We could call the group rec.aviation.rv_builders.
>
> Can we get some feedback and then make a decision on this and just do it?
>
> Thanks, Herman
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>--------------
I think that the quality and quanity of information found on this list would
dramatically decrease if it was moved to a news group. Here are some of the
reasons why:
1) Only people that are *really interested in RVs* are on
this list.
2) Many people don't have access to newsgroups.
3) Many people don't read newsgroups even when they have them.
I'm in that catagory. I have too much to do to regularly
read newsgroups. Email from the list will often spur
a comment from me, that I would not normally bother with
on a newsgroup.
4) The mail list gives it's member more freedom to be candid and
open about discussions due the the "family" nature of the
list.
I perfer to keep the list as it is.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif396.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
>
> It was suggested about two weeks ago that we change to using
> a USENET group. I agree with this for the following reasons.
>
> 1) The email traffic is getting quite large.
> We are now talking about adding more groups.
> 2) I get a lot of 'bounced back' mail for various reasons.
> 3) I like to be able to look at the postings at the end of the
> day (after business) and not have to see all the email traffic
> during the day.
> 4) USENET groups are set up to do exactly this type of Bulletin Board
> traffic. You can still use email to reply or 'post' your answers
> to the group.
>
> Do subscribers to AOL, compuserve, etc. have access to USENET?
> I would assume they do. I use 'xrn' on unix to access the news groups.
>
> We could call the group rec.aviation.rv_builders.
>
Sorry, but I like the way this group is now. I've seen the absolute mess
that rec.homebuilt has become. I especially appreciate the
non-philosphical discussions that occur here, and think the group would
go downhill.
Gary Bataller
P.S. Greetings from Oslo, Norway (exactly, Royken). I'm stuck here
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richards(at)sofkin.ca (Mark Richardson) |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
>
>Text item: Text_1
>
>It is handier for me like it is.
>
>Frank J.
>
>
Me too!!!!
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca K2S 1E7 *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - 1506 *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
One disadvantage to making rv-list a usenet group is that most sites only keep
postings around for a few days on their local hard drives. If you don't read
them every day (say your on travel) you might lose some messages. This is not
typical of email (I only lose messages if my network connection is down for
over 3 days). The other disadvantage, as Doug Medema mentioned, is that lots of
newsgroup sites screen out all "non-businesslike" groups like rec* and alt* so
we would not be getting our daily fix of rv-list! One possible solution is for
Matt to set up an optional digest mode where all the messages for one day are
accumulated and posted only once a day.
BC
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
X X
ZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWV
FWAVBMYQCLXJRGNTFWABMYQCQLXJRGTFWHABMYQCLXJVRGTFHABMYUQCLXVRGTFHOABYUQCLXWVRGTFH
GRTUFHNBDTZFQATQGRUFHNBDTRZFQTQGRUYFHNBTRZFQETQGUYFHNBQTRZQEHTQGUYFNBXQTZQXEHTQG
UQPDMMSKSJDOONCSUQDMSMSKSJDONCVSUDMRSMKSZJDNCNVSDMSRSKSSZJNCFNVSDMSSKLSSJNSCFNVS
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ZXDEIWQMWXOUWGUKZXEIKWQMWXOUGUMKZEIFKWMWJXOGUQMKEIFKWMIWJXGUWQMKEIFWMKIWXGYUWQMK
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UHOMSMYSZWBYWWYVUHOSMYSZTWBYWWVUHEOSMYSZWBYEWWVUEOOSMYSZWBEWWVUEZOOMYASZBEFWWVUE
UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Neeper <Russell.Neeper(at)net.tamu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
I like the list as it is. Besides, if you are using a Unix system then
it's easy to separate the mail into different mailboxes as it comes in.
Two ways I know about are to use procmail or the filter program from the
elm package, I'm sure there are more. If anyone wants info on how to set
this up let me know.
Russell
RV6a #22884
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
I don't know about AOL, but currently, Compuserve users do
NOT have access to USENET newsgroups.
I personally, however, don't have a strong feeling one way or
the other concerning converting rv-list to a USENET group.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
> Sorry, but I like the way this group is now. I've seen the absolute mess
> that rec.homebuilt has become. I especially appreciate the
> non-philosphical discussions that occur here, and think the group would
> go downhill.
Boy is that ever true. I subscribe to several USENET groups, and I
think its name should be changed to USElessNET. The signal-to-noise
ratio on many USENET groups is very low due to the continual flamewars
and personal attacks.
I suspect that due to the fact that rv-list is not a USENET group, and
not a LISTSERV, we don't appear on any (or many) of the giant lists of
groups that are available on the net. Existence of this group is either
discovered accidentally, or is transferred by 'word of mouth' (word of
keyboard?). The result is that we have fewer people here, and that's
a big plus.
As a USENET group we would appear on the big list of USENET groups
arechived at multiple ftp sites. The result would be a much
higher traffic level.
I could live with this being a USENET group, but I would live in
fear that rv-list would degenerate into something much less useful
than it is today.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JWITTMER(at)KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU |
| Subject: | Change of address |
Please change my address from: Orpheus(at)kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Thanks.
Jason Wittmer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Wed Nov 30 18:31:41 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting?
I have access to this group through a rather mangled process of
gateways and other things I don't really understand. It eventually
ends up in cc:Mail on a Novell network and goes directly into a folder
specifically for rv-mail. Yep...you guessed it... I like it just the
way it is! I can read the RV stuff any time (usually days later in
the evening).
Usenet would cause me to miss mail that I didn't get to in time. I've
also been told that it can't be set up to be so transparent to me.
Russ Nichols
RV-6 (emp to be ordered in January)
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting |
One option if we go to a USENET newsgroup is to use a moderated newsgroup
this would keep the postings on the subject of building & flying RV's
as anything else is simply deleted by the moderator.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
This mailing list has a terrific signal-to-noise ratio. A newsgroup, by
opening up the list to more casual readers, would likely end up with
drivel like the "Zoom Campbell" debate recently witnessed on
rec.aviation.homebuilt. I also fear the "my airplane is better than yours"
boastings from builders of other types and the flame wars that would
result. These kinds of things are known to happen on USENET. Of course,
the additional readership would have benefits too. Rec.aviation.homebuilt
doesn't seem to get much RV traffic these days, presumably because most
of us use this list instead. An RV newsgroup would certainly expose more
potential RVators to our discussion.
If a newsgroup is formed, I think the name rec.aviation.homebuilt.rv would
best fit the USENET hierarchy.
Perhaps we need both?
Curt Reimer
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
via XGATE 2.12 MHS to SMTP Gateway (XSMTP Module)
| From: | Andrews Peter F <andrewpf%geds(at)mhsgate.salem.ge.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET g |
Well, I vote for the way it is as well. I'm not yet a builder but I KNOW
the information is valuable for the future. I have taken the messages
since I joined in August and filed them in an ever increasing series of
subject oriented mail folders for future perusal. This would be much
more difficult with a news group.
I've toyed with the idea of partitioning up the archive into individual
messages, mailing them to myself and filing them too. I could then offer
up a zip of only messages pertaing to priners, painting, landing
lights.... (This kind of thought is what happens before you start
building!)
Pete
rv someday
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Maurer <MIKEM(at)wpmail.code3.com> |
Subscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Summary of idea to change to USENET (NOT!) |
OK, OK. I think it is safe to say the consensus is to
keep the mail list as it is and NOT use USENET.
I agree that USENET has the problem of purging info after
a few days and that is bad. I too save the messages
with elm and catalog them with a topic extension (rv.lights for example).
I think I will just set up a filter to redirect the incomming messages.
In the long term I may have to change to a private account on one
of the public networks (AOL, etc) as I have concern my employer
may frown on all this email on the company net.
We get these ugly messages every 6 months or so warning us about
being terminated for using company assets for personal use.
That is why I was leaning toward the USENET groups.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Summary of idea to change to USENET (NOT!) |
Herman Dierks said:
>
> OK, OK. I think it is safe to say the consensus is to
> keep the mail list as it is and NOT use USENET.
[snip]
> I think I will just set up a filter to redirect the incomming messages.
>
> In the long term I may have to change to a private account on one
> of the public networks (AOL, etc) as I have concern my employer
> may frown on all this email on the company net.
> We get these ugly messages every 6 months or so warning us about
> being terminated for using company assets for personal use.
> That is why I was leaning toward the USENET groups.
I don't have this problem but I do know some people who are on
compuserve, and have to pay 15 cents per pessage. It seems like it
should be possible to set up a program that collects all the messages
at the end of the day and e-mails them in a single big message to the
sub-group of people who request it, as an alternative to being on the
normal 'list'. That would help people who have ex-Gestapo type system
administrators or managers, as well as compuserve pay-per-message
types.
What do you think Matt, would that be too big of a hassle to
create/administer?
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Summary of idea to change to USENET (NOT!) |
<9412012226.AA06496(at)edt.edt.com>
| From: | Steve Harris <steveha(at)tailslide.PEN.TEK.COM> |
>
> I don't have this problem but I do know some people who are on
> compuserve, and have to pay 15 cents per pessage. It seems like it
> should be possible to set up a program that collects all the messages
> at the end of the day and e-mails them in a single big message to the
> sub-group of people who request it, as an alternative to being on the
> normal 'list'. That would help people who have ex-Gestapo type system
> administrators> or managers, as well as compuserve pay-per-message
> types.
>
> What do you think Matt, would that be too big of a hassle to
> create/administer?
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6X
>
There are other mailing lists that operate in this manner. I subscribe to
an antique tractor mailing list that has a similar size audience and it
has several "levels" of subscription. Messages are archived in a circular
buffer fashion and can be retrieved via email as well. Levels of service
include:
full - email of every message
digest - daily compilation of that days messages
notification - notification that the archives have been
updated
archive retrieval by specific archive file or all available.
It works very well. For the more interactive members, the full every single
email subscription gives immediate feedback. For us "lurker/monitor" folks
the digest mode gives a single daily email that can be scanned more easily.
I don't have any idea of the system or SW behind the system, just a satisfied
user.
The administrator is Spencer Yost.
Steve Harris
DPL HW Engineering
627-2454 Voice
627-5548 Fax
email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM Public Key Available
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Single piece wing skins? |
OK...I'm back in the airplane building biz after having my life consumed by
politics for the last six months.
I intend to use a single piece top skin on my -6. Does anybody know of a
vendor that will shear the skin to size and then ship via UPS? Or as a
alternative, does is there a sheet metal shop in the SF bay area that can do
the shearing? Also any helpfull hints on the single piece skin installation?
___________________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) Let's see now... Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) where was I? cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!__! _!____________________________________________________|
--NAA21281.786404699/large.cisco.com--
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Can we change to a USENET group posting? |
I would be opposed to a USENET setup due to the costs it would entail, being
that I access through America Online (AOL). With the current mail procedure
it is very cheap for me to simply log on, download all my mail, then read it
offline. Not only do I save online costs, but I am one of those with no
local access number either. (Long Distance = MEGA $$$). Just my .02 worth,
and probably a small .02, but thought I'd throw it out.
BTW, yes, AOL now has complete internet features, including access to user
groups and FTP. Really a slick setup, but again, when you have to sift
through groups and screens, the $$$ clock is ticking. (Call me cheap, but
I'm only 23.)
Shawn Chaney
Fremont, OH
RV-6A (Rudder In Prog.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece wing skins? |
Text item:
> Also any helpfull hints on the single piece skin installation?
You don't need any extra hints. Just put it on first and line everything else up
to it.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Single piece wing skins?
From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 13:53:27 -0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark60195(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Please add to list |
Please add Mark60195(at)aol.com to the RV list. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
Hi All,
I joined this RV list a couple weeks back, but didn't want to introduce
myself until I had something to contribute. I am interested in building an
RV-6A. I plan on building in the first part of FY'95.
I recently joined local Chapter 187 of the EAA. This has been like finding
that your backyard is a diamond quarry and you own the mineral rights! I
have met numerous people after the first meeting including Tony Bingelis, a
writer for Sport Aviation magazine and an author of many books.
I had the wonderful opportunity this past weekend to spend a day with Tony
as he prepared to test fly and finally flew his newly completed RV-3.
There is one word to describe his plane..."Gorgeous!" After seeing the
finished plane, I plan on buying and reading EVERYTHING he has written.
Below is a recap of my Saturday.
The weather was foggy here in the Austin/Georgetown area, so we all went to
lunch to allow the fog to lift. After lunch, another EAA member named
Seth Hancock offered to show me his RV-6 in progress. Tony drove me over
to his house where all three of us looked at his project. On the way over,
Tony said that Seth builds to 1/1000 of inch tolerance. Seth is a
machinist by trade. After looking at the plane, I can verify his
meticulate approach. Seth shared a couple tips with me that I will pass
along here. He uses a Rustoleum metal primer sold at Builders Square. He
said that he has seen Variprime wash off with acetone, whereas the
Rustoleum metal primer, when exposed to acetone, must be scrubbed to remove
it. I know everyone is not going to expose their primer to acetone, but
Seth figures that its' resistance to this chemical says a lot about the
paints durability and adhesion not to mention the cost advantage.
Additionally, he has all the advantages of using a spray can versus spray
equipment. A blessing for priming small parts quickly.
A second tip he shared was with his Avery dimpler. Instead of buying the
return spring kit, he made a 2 minute modification to his. He took a 1/2"
x 8" strip of aluminum and doubled it back on itself. He took this piece
and bent it into somewhat of a C shape. He taped this bowed piece to the
top of his Avery dimpler so that the folded end pushed against the top side
of the arbor and the open two ends were taped to the top of the machine.
He said he uses this setup instead of the spring return so that when he
strikes the arbor to dimple, he is assured that the metal will not shift
since it is already touching where it needs to go. When you pull up the
arbor to release the metal, the quick modification holds the arbor in the
"up" position.
Once back at the airport, the sky opened up and the sun started shining.
Tony decided to fly his RV-3. He fired it up and taxied to the active
along with two RV chase planes. I stayed on the ground taking pictures
wildly with my camera and hitting the record button on my camcorder to
capture the moment. (I am working on setting up a home page on the World
Wide Web so everyone can retrieve the digitized pictures I took with Mosaic
or other reader) Tony took off and flew the pattern approximately 6 times.
I commented to someone standing next to me that Tony wasn't saying much on
the radio, and he said, "I have known Tony for 26 years, and he only speaks
when he has something important to say." The plane looked great in the
air. One guy flying chase (RV-4) said he had to really step on it to keep
up with Tony in the turns. The test ride was a success in that he landed
safely. He reported on the ground some roughness with the engine. His
only comments on how the plane flew were, "It's no RV-6." I really
couldn't tell if this was good or bad since he has built and owns both
planes. Let's all assume this is positive! He did mention that the plane
responded incredibly to the slight addition of trim. We all congratulated
him on a successful test flight! Another RV takes to the sky!
John Hovan
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randyt(at)rmii.com (Randy Treadwell) |
Hi All,
I joined this RV list a couple weeks back, but didn't want to introduce
myself until I had something to contribute. I am interested in building an
RV-6A. I plan on building in the first part of FY'95.
I recently joined local Chapter 187 of the EAA. This has been like finding
that your backyard is a diamond quarry and you own the mineral rights! I
have met numerous people after the first meeting including Tony Bingelis, a
writer for Sport Aviation magazine and an author of many books.
I had the wonderful opportunity this past weekend to spend a day with Tony
as he prepared to test fly and finally flew his newly completed RV-3.
There is one word to describe his plane..."Gorgeous!" After seeing the
finished plane, I plan on buying and reading EVERYTHING he has written.
Below is a recap of my Saturday.
The weather was foggy here in the Austin/Georgetown area, so we all went to
lunch to allow the fog to lift. After lunch, another EAA member named
Seth Hancock offered to show me his RV-6 in progress. Tony drove me over
to his house where all three of us looked at his project. On the way over,
Tony said that Seth builds to 1/1000 of inch tolerance. Seth is a
machinist by trade. After looking at the plane, I can verify his
meticulate approach. Seth shared a couple tips with me that I will pass
along here. He uses a Rustoleum metal primer sold at Builders Square. He
said that he has seen Variprime wash off with acetone, whereas the
Rustoleum metal primer, when exposed to acetone, must be scrubbed to remove
it. I know everyone is not going to expose their primer to acetone, but
Seth figures that its' resistance to this chemical says a lot about the
paints durability and adhesion not to mention the cost advantage.
Additionally, he has all the advantages of using a spray can versus spray
equipment. A blessing for priming small parts quickly.
A second tip he shared was with his Avery dimpler. Instead of buying the
return spring kit, he made a 2 minute modification to his. He took a 1/2"
x 8" strip of aluminum and doubled it back on itself. He took this piece
and bent it into somewhat of a C shape. He taped this bowed piece to the
top of his Avery dimpler so that the folded end pushed against the top side
of the arbor and the open two ends were taped to the top of the machine.
He said he uses this setup instead of the spring return so that when he
strikes the arbor to dimple, he is assured that the metal will not shift
since it is already touching where it needs to go. When you pull up the
arbor to release the metal, the quick modification holds the arbor in the
"up" position.
Once back at the airport, the sky opened up and the sun started shining.
Tony decided to fly his RV-3. He fired it up and taxied to the active
along with two RV chase planes. I stayed on the ground taking pictures
wildly with my camera and hitting the record button on my camcorder to
capture the moment. (I am working on setting up a home page on the World
Wide Web so everyone can retrieve the digitized pictures I took with Mosaic
or other reader) Tony took off and flew the pattern approximately 6 times.
I commented to someone standing next to me that Tony wasn't saying much on
the radio, and he said, "I have known Tony for 26 years, and he only speaks
when he has something important to say." The plane looked great in the
air. One guy flying chase (RV-4) said he had to really step on it to keep
up with Tony in the turns. The test ride was a success in that he landed
safely. He reported on the ground some roughness with the engine. His
only comments on how the plane flew were, "It's no RV-6." I really
couldn't tell if this was good or bad since he has built and owns both
planes. Let's all assume this is positive! He did mention that the plane
responded incredibly to the slight addition of trim. We all congratulated
him on a successful test flight! Another RV takes to the sky!
John Hovan
Austin, TX
:-} Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | RVator index on World-Wide Web |
I have made the RVator index written by Randall Henderson and
translated by myself to HTML accessible via the World-Wide-Web.
Address is http://www.eng.auburn.edu//~johnh/rv-index.html
John Henderson
RV-6 23687
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
I'v just joined the RV forum. Some info on my RV project, started in AUG
94, currently putting the skins on the horizontal stab.
Building an RV-6
Email rbusick(at)nmsu.edu
Address: Bob Busick
808 Raleigh Rd
Las Cruces NM 88005
(505) 527 8125
I am interested in building the lightest RV possible. Hope to keep the
skins unpainted and use an O-320 engine. Any ideas or suggestions on how
to keep the project light and keep the skins looking good will be helpful.
Thanks
Bob Busick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
>
> I'v just joined the RV forum. Some info on my RV project, started in AUG
> 94, currently putting the skins on the horizontal stab.
[snip]
> I am interested in building the lightest RV possible. Hope to keep the
> skins unpainted and use an O-320 engine. Any ideas or suggestions on how
> to keep the project light and keep the skins looking good will be helpful.
> Thanks
> Bob Busick
- Check postings a few months ago - there was a discussion on extra
lightening holes and such.
- Look closely at the photographs in the manual. They show some weight
savings measures that aren't in the plans, like lightening holes in the
empennage ribs and tapered angles on the aileron bellcrank ribs.
- Etch and alodyne interior parts. Provides corrosion resistance without
extra weight.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Building it light |
>
> I am interested in building the lightest RV possible. Hope to keep the
> skins unpainted and use an O-320 engine. Any ideas or suggestions on how
> to keep the project light and keep the skins looking good will be helpful.
> Thanks
> Bob Busick
>
>
Here are some of my thoughts on building a light weight RV.
There are trade-off on weight vers. features that involve safety,
functionality, longivity, etc.
You need to decide why you want it light wt. (aerobatics, better
climb, etc.) and then help decide how to make the trade-offs.
Many of these can hurt resale value of the plane as well.
For example, not priming the interior could have a big impact on
resale price or limit the market of who would buy it.
You will have $25K or more invested in the plane.
Not priming the inside can save some weight but may reduce the life of
the airframe. If you live close to the coast or high humidity you may
decide weight is secondary and paint it. You could alodine only as
it is a conversion coating and does not add weight.
Don't install Nav lights, Strobes, or Landing lights. This saves wires
as switches as well. Again, this is a safety issue as well as a
function issue. I opted for Strobes for safety as RV's are SMALL and FAST.
If you don't want to fly at night, don't add nav or landing lights.
On the Instruments, you can save wt. Don't add any Gyro instruments
as you can then remove the vacume pump and associated hoses/filters...
I went this route as I only plan VFR. I did add an electric turn cord.
Use light wt. avionics, like Tara. Use a hand held GPS.
Maybe use digital components. The Rocky Mt. instrument that has the
Alt, ROC, etc. in one 3 1/8 hole would save a lot of wt. However, you
have one micro processor that if it dies you loose a lot of information.
Also the digital stuff is more $$$. More tradeoffs.
In the engine area; Use a light wt. starter for sure (or no starter
if you are hard core). Use a lt wt. alternator (don't have much choice
here. If you don't use the vacume pump, then you can mount the
alternator made by B&C on the vacume pump pad. I think it is 8 amps,
but that is enough if you don't have strobes and no night work.
Forgo the alternator if you don't really need it. I flew my Acro Sport
that way and just recarge it after each flt.
Use a wood prop, that saves about 15 lb.
Van's talked about a battery that was half the size of a normal battery
and he said he got 30 starts off of it without recharging.
Use a simple interior.
On the structure, I think all the ribs now come with lightning holes.
Make all the holes in parts where they may be optional.
Paint the exterior but don't lay it on too thick.
Polish the exterior if you are hard core.
You could use Lamb Tires. Some of the Aerobatic folks use these
tires as they are lighter wt. I don't know too much about them.
A friend has them on a Pitts S1S and liks them. They are smaller
in diameter so that may affect the wheel pants. May be able to use
smaller pants (less wt.)
Don't start making any changes to the plans on the airframe. That
usually leads to changes that can add wt.
I guess you could do away with the Fiberglass wing tips. It would
hurt the climb rate some but would roll faster.
Regards, Herman
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randyt(at)rmii.com (Randy Treadwell) |
Hi
I don't know how but John Hovan from Austin TX sent mail on Dec 5 that was
sent with my address and name on it.
All the credit goes to John with the account of his day with Tony Bingles.
John I would love to see you put up a web page lets us know when.
:-) Randy
:-} Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
unsubscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Did lelphi drop you?
________________________________________________________________________________
[/PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/;bcars735.b.851:09.11.94.14.09.24]
| From: | "lawrence (l.a.) hegarty" <hegarty(at)bnr.ca> |
| Subject: | extraction space requirements |
I may soon buy a house with a very large unfinished basement, perfect for
building an RV in. I believe it is even large enough to fit a finished RV
in. The problem will be getting the RV out. Is it easy to keep the
fuselage and the wing separate until very late in the game? Any idea how
big a hole I will have to create in order to extract an RV (well, its
components) from a basement?
I hope I can go pretty far before I have to move to an (expensive) hanger
to complete the job.
---
Lawrence A. Hegarty Montreal, Canada
hegarty(at)bnr.ca (514) 761-8767
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Fuselage Rivet Size |
Text item: Text_1
Gil: (and others)
Don Wentz of the local group here gave us a tip you are going to need
very soon.
The rivets that hold the bottom skin to the firewall are a little too
small for the job. Use 1/8" instead of 3/32". Don says that these rivets
in his airplane with 130 hours are already working loose. A second-hand
comment attributed to an A&P was that the only place an RV-6 is weak is
in this area and along the floorboard stiffeners. Don says it might be a
good idea to also use 1/8" rivets to hold this skin to the F-604
bulkhead since the materials here are thick and the stresses high.
FKJ
p.s.- Don has been known to jerk his airplane around the sky a lot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Maurer <MIKEM(at)wpmail.code3.com> |
| Subject: | extraction space requirements -Reply |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I may soon buy a house with a very large unfinished basement,
>perfect for building an RV in. I believe it is even large enough to fit
>a finished RV in. The problem will be getting the RV out. Is it
>easy to keep the fuselage and the wing separate until very late in
>the game? Any idea how big a hole I will have to create in order
>to extract an RV (well, its components) from a basement?
>
>I hope I can go pretty far before I have to move to an (expensive)
>hanger to complete the job.
>
>---
>Lawrence A. Hegarty Montreal, Canada
>hegarty(at)bnr.ca (514) 761-8767
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Building an RV in your home basement would certainly be
convenient, in most respects. But other than the obvious problem
of how to extract it, there are a couple more hurdles to jump over
as well. One of the biggest comes when it is time to paint. While
the zipping whine of an air drill and the chattering racket of bucking
rivets might be music to our ears, it is sometimes enough to drive
your other household residents out onto the streets. If you get lucky
and they survive that process, then those everlasting fumes from
the paint job are almost sure to do them in. Even a well ventilated
basement will still seep fumes into the living quarters above. I think
I would extract it and do the paint job somewhere else, for sure.
Anyway, if you have a spouse and/or others living in the house, and
want to keep them, better make darn sure they are pre-warned and
totally "on your side" before the project is ever started!
Sounds like a nice shop setup though. Sure beats having to travel
back and forth, and pay space rental. Plus it is a lot easier to keep
heated than a hangar. Good luck!
Mike Maurer
mikem(at)wpmail.code3.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Rivet Size |
Text item: Text_1
After further investigation, I have found that this is a widespread
problem. I am trying to determine the best fix, both for those of us
already flying and for those still building.
Machine countersinking 1/8" rivets into .040 skin IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!
The rivet countersink required is .048", which would leave ZERO shank
contact with the skin. NOT acceptable.
I will offer some 'ideas' after I get more data.
dw
>Gil: (and others)
>Don Wentz of the local group here gave us a tip you are going to need
>very soon.
>The rivets that hold the bottom skin to the firewall are a little too
>small for the job. Use 1/8" instead of 3/32". Don says that these
>rivets in his airplane with 130 hours are already working loose. A
>second-hand comment attributed to an A&P was that the only place an
>RV-6 is weak is in this area and along the floorboard stiffeners. Don
>says it might be a good idea to also use 1/8" rivets to hold this skin
>to the F-604 bulkhead since the materials here are thick and the
>stresses high.
>FKJ
>p.s.- Don has been known to jerk his airplane around the sky a lot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Fri Dec 9 11:05:39 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Where to start...
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
It looks like the time has come for me to get serious. I'll be
ordering my empenage kit in January and will officially no longer be a
"lurker".
I have just a "quick and simple" question for all of the experience
out there... I live in Sacramento, CA. It's generally relatively
warm here. I'm planning to start this airplane in a two-car (new
house so it may actually be only a 1.5 car...) garage.
Do I need to do anything specific to the garage. I understand that
I'll need plenty of power outlets and lights. Is it important to keep
it warm at all times? I can warm it in a short time with a space
heater on those unbearably(?) cold days that we have (in the 30's at
worst).
Does the 1st kit come with info on setup up a "shop"? I'm not exactly
sure what I'll need. I do have Van's info pack that outlines tools,
but is there anything else that I should be concerned with before I
send Van a check?
thanks for the info,
Russ Nichols
RV-6 wanna be
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Fri Dec 9 10:50:07 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Re: RVator index on World-Wide Web
John H Henderson
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
John,
I just (last night actually) figured out how to get around and use the
Web. To say that I'm still an amateur is quite an understatement! I
know that I'm asking for the world here, but how much work do you
think it would be to get the RVator articles put on the Web?
I've only been getting the RVator for 1 year, and I'm sure that the
older articles would help me. Do you think it would be worth the
effort?
thanks,
russ
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RVator index on World-Wide Web
Date: 12/6/94 2:49 PM
I have made the RVator index written by Randall Henderson and
translated by myself to HTML accessible via the World-Wide-Web.
Address is http://www.eng.auburn.edu//~johnh/rv-index.html
John Henderson
RV-6 23687
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
Text item:
Gil:
> Since this skin is thicker than most, should it be dimpled or
>countersunk for the 1/8 rivets. Or, second idea, how about staying with
>3/32 rivets and halving the spacing??
Dimpling the skin and countersinking the firewall stiffener would probably be
stronger than just countersinking the skin in this particular area (looks like
mostly shear stresses at work here). It will of course be kind of tough to get
a
good dimple on that thick a skin but at least it is on the bottom side.
I think what I will do is use 1/8" where I think I will be able to get in drive
the rivets reliably, but if not, use doubled 3/32" rivets knowing that I can
drill some out later and put in larger ones if they start working loose.
Don Wentz feels that the problem is using a small diameter rivet with one thick
and one thin piece of material; because of the way the rivet spreads out during
driving it does not properly force the two pieces of material together.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Fuselage Rivet Size
From: rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 09:59:55 -0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
Send your money, you'll do fine.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Author: fire.ca.gov!RUSS_NICHOLS(at)matronics.com at SMTPGATE
Date: 12/9/94 12:58 PM
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Fri Dec 9 11:05:39 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:05:39 -0800
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Where to start...
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
It looks like the time has come for me to get serious. I'll be
ordering my empenage kit in January and will officially no longer be a
"lurker".
I have just a "quick and simple" question for all of the experience
out there... I live in Sacramento, CA. It's generally relatively
warm here. I'm planning to start this airplane in a two-car (new
house so it may actually be only a 1.5 car...) garage.
Do I need to do anything specific to the garage. I understand that
I'll need plenty of power outlets and lights. Is it important to keep
it warm at all times? I can warm it in a short time with a space
heater on those unbearably(?) cold days that we have (in the 30's at
worst).
Does the 1st kit come with info on setup up a "shop"? I'm not exactly
sure what I'll need. I do have Van's info pack that outlines tools,
but is there anything else that I should be concerned with before I
send Van a check?
thanks for the info,
Russ Nichols
RV-6 wanna be
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 11:12 PST
From: fire.ca.gov!RUSS_NICHOLS(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[3]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
Don ... thanks for the info.
I have two ideas....
How about leaving the rivets at 3/32 and just halving the spacing
(pitch) to 0.625 inch for extra strength??
The minimum pitch specs. are 0.563 inch pitch for dimpling, and
0.438 inch for countersinking, so 0.625 inch is well inside the spec
limits.
Or how about assembling it with Proseal??
Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A ... 3 skins drilled and 2 skins
half drilled on fuse.
P.S. I will check out our local flying RV6A this weekend for this problem
(200+ hours, but little acrobatics)
>
>After further investigation, I have found that this is a widespread
>problem. I am trying to determine the best fix, both for those of us
>already flying and for those still building.
>
>Machine countersinking 1/8" rivets into .040 skin IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!
>The rivet countersink required is .048", which would leave ZERO shank
>contact with the skin. NOT acceptable.
>
>I will offer some 'ideas' after I get more data.
>dw
>
>>Gil: (and others)
>
>>Don Wentz of the local group here gave us a tip you are going to need
>>very soon.
>
>>The rivets that hold the bottom skin to the firewall are a little too
>>small for the job. Use 1/8" instead of 3/32". Don says that these
>>rivets in his airplane with 130 hours are already working loose. A
>>second-hand comment attributed to an A&P was that the only place an
>>RV-6 is weak is in this area and along the floorboard stiffeners. Don
>>says it might be a good idea to also use 1/8" rivets to hold this skin
>>to the F-604 bulkhead since the materials here are thick and the
>>stresses high.
>
>>FKJ
>
>>p.s.- Don has been known to jerk his airplane around the sky a lot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
The first thing you need to do is get in Touch with Ed Martinson up in
Lincoln. He runs the Sac area RV builders group and just finished his
RV-6 this summer.
dw
It looks like the time has come for me to get serious. I'll be
ordering my empenage kit in January and will officially no longer be a
"lurker".
I have just a "quick and simple" question for all of the experience
out there... I live in Sacramento, CA. It's generally relatively
warm here. I'm planning to start this airplane in a two-car (new
house so it may actually be only a 1.5 car...) garage.
Do I need to do anything specific to the garage. I understand that
I'll need plenty of power outlets and lights. Is it important to keep
it warm at all times? I can warm it in a short time with a space
heater on those unbearably(?) cold days that we have (in the 30's at
worst).
Does the 1st kit come with info on setup up a "shop"? I'm not exactly
sure what I'll need. I do have Van's info pack that outlines tools,
but is there anything else that I should be concerned with before I
send Van a check?
thanks for the info,
Russ Nichols
RV-6 wanna be
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: setting up shop |
Russ Nichols said:
>
[snip]
> Do I need to do anything specific to the garage. I understand that
> I'll need plenty of power outlets and lights.
Yeah but you can get away with good extension cords. The main thing is to
have a 20 amp circuit or two, and wiring that can handle the load.
> Is it important to keep
> it warm at all times?
Not at all. Mostly just what you require for your own comfort. I heat
mine pretty well just because if it's cold I'm less likely to go out
there to work on it. Of course temperature is important when priming,
but you only do that infrequently.
> Does the 1st kit come with info on setup up a "shop"? I'm not exactly
> sure what I'll need. I do have Van's info pack that outlines tools,
> but is there anything else that I should be concerned with before I
> send Van a check?
A while back Doug Bloomberg (dougb(at)anchor.cs.colorado.edu) posted a
_very_ good list of "What Tools Do I Need", from his "Rocky Mountain
RVators" newsletter. I strongly recommend getting a copy. If you can't
get it from Doug I might be able to dig it up.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
Air compressors run more effeicently on
220/230 volts.
Plan for the location and proper
receptical.
JS.
It looks like the time has come for me
to get serious. I'll be
ordering my empenage kit in January
and will officially no longer be a
"lurker".
I have just a "quick and simple"
question for all of the experience
out there... I live in Sacramento,
CA. It's generally relatively
warm here. I'm planning to start this
airplane in a two-car (new
house so it may actually be only a 1.5
car...) garage.
Do I need to do anything specific to
the garage. I understand that
I'll need plenty of power outlets and
lights. Is it important to keep
it warm at all times? I can warm it
in a short time with a space
heater on those unbearably(?) cold
days that we have (in the 30's at
worst).
Does the 1st kit come with info on
setup up a "shop"? I'm not exactly
sure what I'll need. I do have Van's
info pack that outlines tools,
but is there anything else that I
should be concerned with before I
send Van a check?
thanks for the info,
Russ Nichols
RV-6 wanna be
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
Hi All,
A dedicated RV Web page has been started! You can access wonderful
pictures and information gathered from this group along with scanned images
of Van's literature using...
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
...and using a browser such as Mosaic. If you are not sure how to access
this server, please ask a buddy. I'll be busy adding more RV information.
I have scanned some of Van's literature and have included it on this server
as well as a picture of Tony B's plane. If you hear that Van objects to
having this literature on the internet, please let me know and I'll remove
it. I looked fairly close at his literature and did not see a copyright or
disclaimer from using the information.
If I receive Frank's manual addition, I would be happy to post it as well.
Feedback is welcome!
enjoy it,
John
ps. The pictures take some time to retrieve. I wouldn't recommend
retrieving them over a modem.
----
>Hi
>
>I don't know how but John Hovan from Austin TX sent mail on Dec 5 that was
>sent with my address and name on it.
>
>All the credit goes to John with the account of his day with Tony Bingles.
>
>John I would love to see you put up a web page lets us know when.
>
>:-) Randy
>
>:-} Randy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gratclif(at)magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gregory W. Ratcliff) |
| Subject: | Re: Building it light |
You forgot one:
Go on a diet. I don't know about you, but I could trim 10 pounds
off myself. How much will this improve my climb rate?
What about 30?...
greg
Gregory W. Ratcliff
Columbus, Ohio ICBM
In the Air N1697X
On the Air NZ8R
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
Gil, The half spacing idea has potential...
So far, these are the possibilities:
1> Half spacing 3/32 rivets. Good as it is retro-fittable for folks like
myself. Would it be enough?
2> Drill-out to 1/8 and install - "GASP" - round head rivets. This is a proven
fix, but leaves you with unsightly round rivet heads. However, it IS retroable.
3> ProSeal - Since it is flexible, I don't know if it would be enough, using
the std riveting method. But, I DO think it should be used anyway, just to seal
the cockpit-engine compartment from each other.
4> Only for new construction: Use 1/8 rivets for that WHOLE .040 floor pan.
Machine countersink the 1/8 & .062 subsurfaces, dimple all skin and .040 or less
surfaces. Proseal all firewall to skin surfaces to seal the cockpit from engine
fumes, oil, etc.
I'm 'thinking' about using method 1 above, and may add a slight countersink on
the SHOP head end of the rivet, to lessen the effective thickness of the 1/8"
angle, at the rivets. I'll also use proseal.
Again, these are just ideas, still need researching to decide on the best or
most acceptable methods.
Also, lest Frank gives you the wrong idea, I don't 'jerk' my RV-6 around the
sky, I pride myself on smoothness in rolls, split-Ss, etc. I try to stay below
3 G's 'most' of the time. But I suppose that does add stresses to the affected
areas.
dw
>I have two ideas....
>How about leaving the rivets at 3/32 and just halving the spacing
>(pitch) to 0.625 inch for extra strength??
>The minimum pitch specs. are 0.563 inch pitch for dimpling, and
>0.438 inch for countersinking, so 0.625 inch is well inside the spec
>limits.
>Or how about assembling it with Proseal??
>Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A ... 3 skins drilled and 2 skins
>half drilled on fuse.
>P.S. I will check out our local flying RV6A this weekend for this problem
>(200+ hours, but little acrobatics)
>
>After further investigation, I have found that this is a widespread
>problem. I am trying to determine the best fix, both for those of us
>already flying and for those still building.
>
>Machine countersinking 1/8" rivets into .040 skin IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!!
>The rivet countersink required is .048", which would leave ZERO shank
>contact with the skin. NOT acceptable.
>
>I will offer some 'ideas' after I get more data.
>dw
>
>>Gil: (and others)
>
>>Don Wentz of the local group here gave us a tip you are going to need
>>very soon.
>
>>The rivets that hold the bottom skin to the firewall are a little too
>>small for the job. Use 1/8" instead of 3/32". Don says that these
>>rivets in his airplane with 130 hours are already working loose. A
>>second-hand comment attributed to an A&P was that the only place an
>>RV-6 is weak is in this area and along the floorboard stiffeners. Don
>>says it might be a good idea to also use 1/8" rivets to hold this skin
>>to the F-604 bulkhead since the materials here are thick and the
>>stresses high.
>
>>FKJ
>
>>p.s.- Don has been known to jerk his airplane around the sky a lot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | extraction space requirements (fwd) |
I think I saw a picture in one of the last two RVator's that showed someone
moving a RV fuselage out of a basement. Look it up and talk to that person
to see how big a hole he needed.
You put the wings on to rig the controls and set the incidence (drill the rear
spar hole), attache the fwd fuel tank bracket to the fuselage, and a few other
things. You only put in a few spar bolts at this time. Then they come back off
so you could probably take the wings out the stairs.
Remove the tail feathers and the canopy.
The fuselage would have to have the gear legs removed (one bolt per leg) and
then it could come out a hole in the side of the wall. You could make this by
enlarging
a window and diging a ramp. You could make the ramp a permenant feature
(many old houses had ramps to the basement) or just repair it.
You could do everything but paint the exterior. You can prime the parts outside
as it is lots of small parts to prime before you rivet it all together.
You could set up a paint tent out of 4 mil plastic to prime in outdoors.
You would paint the exterior after it is removed from the basement, probably
at the hangar.
Most paint the exterior with the wings removed and then install them as the
last step. You then put in all the spar bolts and hope you don't have to
take them out again.
> From root Fri Dec 9 11:22:25 1994
> X400-Received:
> X400-Received:
> X400-Received:
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:07:00 -0500
> X400-Originator: /dd.id=1683898/g=lawrence/i=la/s=hegarty/@bnr.ca
> X400-Mts-Identifier:
> [/PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/;bcars735.b.851:09.11.94.14.09.24]
> X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2)
> Content-Identifier: extraction sp...
> From: "lawrence (l.a.) hegarty" <bnr.ca!hegarty(at)matronics.com>
> Sender: "lawrence (l.a.) hegarty"
> Message-Id: <"4907.Fri.Dec..9.09:09:42.1994"@bnr.ca>.
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: extraction space requirements
>
> I may soon buy a house with a very large unfinished basement, perfect for
> building an RV in. I believe it is even large enough to fit a finished RV
> in. The problem will be getting the RV out. Is it easy to keep the
> fuselage and the wing separate until very late in the game? Any idea how
> big a hole I will have to create in order to extract an RV (well, its
> components) from a basement?
>
> I hope I can go pretty far before I have to move to an (expensive) hanger
> to complete the job.
>
> ---
> Lawrence A. Hegarty Montreal, Canada
> hegarty(at)bnr.ca (514) 761-8767
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Scanned images of RV's |
John, I would like to have some scanned images of a RV 4 that I could
use to experiment with paint schemes and colors.
I have a 486/66DX2 with DOS and Windows (sorry, I wish it was a Mac)
at home. I have some photos to start from. Can you scan them?
What types of files do you end up with? .gif, bmp, ???
Also, I am not sure what tool to use to edit them.
I also have a AIX WS here at work. I played with on of the editors
and edited .gif files a few years back.
What do you recommend? I would rather experiment on the computer
before I buy that expensive Imron.
Herman
> From root Fri Dec 9 18:39:05 1994
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 15:17:46 -0800
> Message-Id: <9412092317.AA17867(at)apple.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> From: apple.com!hovan(at)matronics.com (John Hovan)
> Subject: Re: Last Letter
>
> Hi All,
>
> A dedicated RV Web page has been started! You can access wonderful
> pictures and information gathered from this group along with scanned images
> of Van's literature using...
>
> http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
>
> ...and using a browser such as Mosaic. If you are not sure how to access
> this server, please ask a buddy. I'll be busy adding more RV information.
>
> I have scanned some of Van's literature and have included it on this server
> as well as a picture of Tony B's plane. If you hear that Van objects to
> having this literature on the internet, please let me know and I'll remove
> it. I looked fairly close at his literature and did not see a copyright or
> disclaimer from using the information.
>
> If I receive Frank's manual addition, I would be happy to post it as well.
> Feedback is welcome!
>
> enjoy it,
> John
>
> ps. The pictures take some time to retrieve. I wouldn't recommend
> retrieving them over a modem.
>
>
> ----
> >Hi
> >
> >I don't know how but John Hovan from Austin TX sent mail on Dec 5 that was
> >sent with my address and name on it.
> >
> >All the credit goes to John with the account of his day with Tony Bingles.
> >
> >John I would love to see you put up a web page lets us know when.
> >
> >:-) Randy
> >
> >:-} Randy
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: www rv home page |
I just accessed this RV www page via Mosiac and it works.
I added it to my hot list.
The photos are a little slow to load over the net and also a little dark.
How about putting a picture of my Pitts in there just so they can see
what a REAL plane looks like? At least as a place holder till the
RV4 is painted.
Herman
> From root Fri Dec 9 18:39:05 1994
> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 15:17:46 -0800
> Message-Id: <9412092317.AA17867(at)apple.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> From: apple.com!hovan(at)matronics.com (John Hovan)
> Subject: Re: Last Letter
>
> Hi All,
>
> A dedicated RV Web page has been started! You can access wonderful
> pictures and information gathered from this group along with scanned images
> of Van's literature using...
>
> http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
>
> ...and using a browser such as Mosaic. If you are not sure how to access
> this server, please ask a buddy. I'll be busy adding more RV information.
>
> I have scanned some of Van's literature and have included it on this server
> as well as a picture of Tony B's plane. If you hear that Van objects to
> having this literature on the internet, please let me know and I'll remove
> it. I looked fairly close at his literature and did not see a copyright or
> disclaimer from using the information.
>
> If I receive Frank's manual addition, I would be happy to post it as well.
> Feedback is welcome!
>
> enjoy it,
> John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | For sale: Lyc starter and alternater |
For Sale:
Following Starter and Alternator fit all Lyc 360 models and probably
most 320's. They were removed from a IO-360-B4A that was a factory
new engine. The engine was in a Super Acrosport I that I owned and
they were removed to save weight. I installed a light wt starer and no
alternator. I am posting on the RV net as the Starter could be used
on a RV if you want a stock starter and some extra wt. up front.
The Alternator is not usable on a RV as it is too large for the cowl.
I am posting here as I know some of you have other factory aircraft
or may know of someone that could use these. Note the low total time
sense new.
Starter, Prestolite MZ-4222 12Volt, 12/14 pitch for 149 tooth ring gear.
Complete with gear drive. 150 Hr TTSNew!! $225.00 255-0265.
(A new armature for these is $300.00 alone)
Alternator Prestolite ALY 8420 12V 60 Amp. 100 Hr TTSNew. Complete with
pully and mount brackets and belt. $200.00 OBO 255-0265. Herman Dierks
Thanks, Herman (home number is 512-255-0265)
--------------------------------------------------------
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Mounting the white nav lite ?? |
I am in the home stretch of completing the empenage for my RV-4. Hope to
pick up the wing kit before Xmas.
I purchased a new Whelen A555A-V-14 white nave light for mounting in
the rudder. This will be my forst fiberglass work on the RV. I have
opted to complete as much of each assembly as possible. (i.e. I don't
want to leave the fiberglass to the end.)
Two Questions:
1) Should I pot some nuts in fiberglass fairing to secure the light fixture,
or should I attempt to fab some tiny aluminum brackets?
2) Also where is the best place for the power wire to exit the rudder?
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MKSARGENT(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Stop sending me email! |
This is Mark Sargent. I signed by brother in law, Mark Myres to this rvlist,
because he is building this plane, but I think he wants to be put on a
physical mailing list. I don't know if this has been done already, but if it
has, please get me off the email part of this because the rv mail is getting
heavy and I get enough stuff as it is.
Thanks
Mark Sargent
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Re[4]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> Gil, The half spacing idea has potential...
> So far, these are the possibilities:
> 1> Half spacing 3/32 rivets. Good as it is retro-fittable for folks like
> myself. Would it be enough?
> 2> Drill-out to 1/8 and install - "GASP" - round head rivets. This is a proven
> fix, but leaves you with unsightly round rivet heads. However, it IS retroable.
> 3> ProSeal - Since it is flexible, I don't know if it would be enough, using
> the std riveting method. But, I DO think it should be used anyway, just to seal
> the cockpit-engine compartment from each other.
> 4> Only for new construction: Use 1/8 rivets for that WHOLE .040 floor pan.
> Machine countersink the 1/8 & .062 subsurfaces, dimple all skin and .040 or less
> surfaces. Proseal all firewall to skin surfaces to seal the cockpit from engine
> fumes, oil, etc.
5> Replace the 3/32 rivets with "oops" rivets. (1/8 rivets w/ 3/32 flush head.)
Don, I know you think the failure mode has something to do with the head size
but do you really have any evidence that head size has anything to do with it?
The oops rivet might be worth a try before trying the other options which will
still be available later.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Help!!! Major screw up |
Folks,
I need your help big time today. Discovered that I put the top skin on the
bottom and bottom skins on the top of the right wing. Got hurryitis and
fell into a big hole.
Flap looks like it will be fine with 1/4 inch shorter top skin, but aileron
needs help. Any ideas on how to solve. Interested in two attack fronts.
1. Problems with replacing top wing skins.
2. Best way to extend the outboard top skin over the aileron area.
Help !!!!
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Mounting the white nav lite ?? |
>Bill Baines *** asked ***
>Two Questions:
>
>1) Should I pot some nuts in fiberglass fairing to secure the light fixture,
> or should I attempt to fab some tiny aluminum brackets?
>
>2) Also where is the best place for the power wire to exit the rudder?
>
For #1,
Tony Bingelis reccommends using a 1/8 inch aluminum backing plate
epoxied, and then glassed over as a mount. This plate would be sort of
diamond shaped (with rounded corners) for the tail light, with a large
center round hole. The plate is drilled and tapped for the two small
mounting screws that hold the thin, formed sheet metal retainer for the
glass. These two screws will then secure the entire assembly to the
rudder. When you finally mount the light, note which way the pyrex glass
is mounted ... it is actually a lens, and you want the maximum light output
to be in a horizontal plane when mounted.
For #2,
Don't know the best place, but make sure that the wires can flex
with the rudder movement. One way I have used in the past for similar
situations is to run the wires through a short length of Tygon (1/8 or 3/16
I.D.) tubing that is carefully clamped down at each end of the hinge space.
This forms a nice flexible conduit, preventing any localized flexing that
can lead to stress breakage of the wires.
keep on building ..Gil Alexander RV6A #20701... 5 1/2 fuse skins drilled
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[5]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
*** lots of stuff cut out ****
>
> >Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A ... 3 skins drilled and 2 skins
> >half drilled on fuse.
>
>>P.S. I will check out our local flying RV6A this weekend for this problem
>>(200+ hours, but little acrobatics)
>
>>>The rivets that hold the bottom skin to the firewall are a little too
>>>small for the job. Use 1/8" instead of 3/32". Don says that these
>>>rivets in his airplane with 130 hours are already working loose. A
>>>second-hand comment attributed to an A&P was that the only place an
>>>RV-6 is weak is in this area and along the floorboard stiffeners. Don
>>>says it might be a good idea to also use 1/8" rivets to hold this skin
>>>to the F-604 bulkhead since the materials here are thick and the
>>>stresses high.
>>
>>>FKJ
Don and Frank,
I did manage to check out our local flying RV6A this
weekend, but did not manage to talk to the owner.
As you guessed, he was starting to get some loose rivets at the
F604 firewall, but only in the central area. The floorboard rivets are
fine.
Some specific items ... this is a -6A .. does the nosewheel stress
the firewall at the lower mount points more, or is it all engine loads??
He is using "green foam" fibreglassed on both sides in between his floor
stiffeners to get a smooth floor. This will tend to prevent any "spot"
loads on the floor from big feet, and less stress on the floor stiffener
rivets. He also has the floor mounted rudder pedals, does this give any
extra stiffness??
Don ... what sort of arrangement do you have on your floor???
If the problem is really confined to the center of the F604, then
1/8 universal head rivets are not so bad a solution at a closer spacing.
The spec. is 0.5 inch minimum pitch for universal head 1/8 rivets. They
would only be in the portion of the airflow that is masked by the engine
cowling. I bet the airflow is already pretty "dirty" along that edge
already that a few protruding rivets won't make any difference. The outer
portions of the F604/lower skin in the regular airflow could then be
handled by the half spacing flush 3/32 rivet fix.
Any other thoughts??? ... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
This skin's next to drill!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Russ Nichols said:
>
> I just (last night actually) figured out how to get around and use the
> Web. To say that I'm still an amateur is quite an understatement! I
> know that I'm asking for the world here, but how much work do you
> think it would be to get the RVator articles put on the Web?
>
> I've only been getting the RVator for 1 year, and I'm sure that the
> older articles would help me. Do you think it would be worth the
> effort?
Buy the book "All those Old RV-Ators", a compendium of articles from
RVator newsletters, organized by subject so it's much easier to find
things than by going through all the old issues. It's available from:
Easy Publishing
328 Luscombe Dr
Los Lunas, NM 87031
(505) 865-3466
$25.95
(I believe Van's sells them as well.)
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Building it light |
Text item:
How about 110!! You light weights make me chuckle.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Building it light
Date: 12/9/94 5:13 PM
You forgot one:
Go on a diet. I don't know about you, but I could trim 10 pounds
off myself. How much will this improve my climb rate?
What about 30?...
greg
Gregory W. Ratcliff
Columbus, Ohio ICBM
In the Air N1697X
On the Air NZ8R
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Building it light
From: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!gratclif(at)matronics.com (Gregory W. Ratcliff)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 18:32:28 -0500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BRUMWELLB(at)aol.com |
If you have room for more folks, please sign me on to your RV group.
I have 170 hrs on my RV-6; completed 9/92, 180 hp, c/s prop.
Thanks
Bob Brumwell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Stall Speed and Lift |
Text item:
Attached (MS Excel 5.0) is a spread sheet developed by John Roncz and published
in Sport Aviation (Feb. 1990). The calculations are basic and my inputs are my
own RV estimates.
- Altitude is used to get Rho (air density)
- Rho, coef. of lift, wing area and weight are used to get stall speed
This doesn't equate to climb rate but does give an indication of the effects on
weight and altitude on an RV.
Sorry I have access only to MS Windows, hope you can use this.
enjoy,
mikew, RV4(wings)
Hi All,
A dedicated RV Web page has been started! You can access wonderful
pictures and information gathered from this group along with scanned images
of Van's literature using...
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
...and using a browser such as Mosaic. If you are not sure how to access
this server, please ask a buddy. I'll be busy adding more RV information.
I have scanned some of Van's literature and have included it on this server
as well as a picture of Tony B's plane. If you hear that Van objects to
having this literature on the internet, please let me know and I'll remove
it. I looked fairly close at his literature and did not see a copyright or
disclaimer from using the information.
If I receive Frank's manual addition, I would be happy to post it as well.
Feedback is welcome!
enjoy it,
John
ps. The pictures take some time to retrieve. I wouldn't recommend
retrieving them over a modem.
----
>Hi
>
>I don't know how but John Hovan from Austin TX sent mail on Dec 5 that was
>sent with my address and name on it.
>
>All the credit goes to John with the account of his day with Tony Bingles.
>
>John I would love to see you put up a web page lets us know when.
>
>:-) Randy
>
________________________________________________________________________________
(InterLock SMTP Gateway 1.1 for );
| From: | John Yewko <John.Yewko(at)jci.com> |
subscribe RV john yewko
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | My last day ..... |
Text item: Text_1
I will be leaving Intel, Inc. 12-22-94. Please unsubscribe, no
forwarding address at this time. It's been fun.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Schulte <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Help!!! Major screw up |
>I need your help big time today. Discovered that I put the top skin on the
>bottom and bottom skins on the top of the right wing. Got hurryitis and
>fell into a big hole.
>
>Flap looks like it will be fine with 1/4 inch shorter top skin, but aileron
>needs help. Any ideas on how to solve. Interested in two attack fronts.
>
>1. Problems with replacing top wing skins.
>
>2. Best way to extend the outboard top skin over the aileron area.
>
>Help !!!!
>
>Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
>Whidbey RV-ators
>Coupeville, WA
Don:
Boy you have gotten yourself into a pickle, and I thought it was bad
when I installed the end rib 5/8" inboard (I ended up making the wing 1/2"
shorter). If I were you I would replace the top wing skin. If you very
carefully remove it you can use it as a template to drill the proper skin. By
the way how did this happen, didn't you drill both the top & bottom skins before
you started riveting? I'm sure the holes would not line up!
If you want to take the other path, which you would hate yourself for as
long as you own your RV. You could extend the skin with the curved piece of
aluminum that attaches under the top wing skin to the rear spare (just behind
the aileron). I doubt you could cover the seem and I don't know how well it
will hold up after 500 hours of flight time but it's an idea.
Chris.
RV-6 speed wing...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Mon Dec 12 16:42:51 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Re: RVator atricles
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
Randall,
I've heard of "RVator, the last 14 years". If you know of both books, how do
the two compare? Is it worth getting both, or are they generally the same
thing?
thanks,
russ
Randall Henderson wrote:
Buy the book "All those Old RV-Ators", a compendium of articles from
RVator newsletters, organized by subject so it's much easier to find
things than by going through all the old issues. It's available from:
Easy Publishing
328 Luscombe Dr
Los Lunas, NM 87031
(505) 865-3466
$25.95
(I believe Van's sells them as well.)
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Mon Dec 12 16:58:45 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Kudos...
name=Text_1
name=Text_1
Last week I posted a couple of questions about getting started on my
RV endeavor. The response has been outstanding!
Thanks to all of you who have offered advice on references, tools,
environment, and just plain old encouragement.
As a result of all of this, I've ordered a number of catalogues and
reference books. I have a laundry list of tools and environmental
needs.
Thank you for all of the assistance! You can be sure that I'll be
asking MANY more questions as this "little project" continues! I may
even be able to help other builders some day...
Now... where's that check book...
Russ Nichols
RV-6 gonna be...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help!!! Major screw up |
This is not the first time I've heard of such a thing. I know of a local
RV'er that has been flying for several years with his wingtip screwed on to
an extra strip riveted onto the end rib. The only visible difference is that
the screws holding the tip on are in the fiberglass and not the sheet metal
flange.
All he did was to take, what I assume was, some .025 angle and rivet it on
the skin line to the end rib. Then the fiberglass flange was cut off and the
tip fitted and drilled to the angle. Nut plates were then added to the angle
and the tip installed.
Unless they notice that the screws are in the wrong place most people don't
notice the change at all. A perfect fit and a testement to his skill as a
craftsman. (here is the proper place to use the PC mantra)
I however don't feel I would have that skill to pull it off, and would
reluctantly fork over the bucks for new skins.
If you are interested in the angle strip method, I could put you in touch
with him, if he isn't already lurking on the List.
bobn(at)ims.com
Bob Neuner
>Folks,
>
>I need your help big time today. Discovered that I put the top skin on the
>bottom and bottom skins on the top of the right wing. Got hurryitis and
>fell into a big hole.
>
>Flap looks like it will be fine with 1/4 inch shorter top skin, but aileron
>needs help. Any ideas on how to solve. Interested in two attack fronts.
>
>1. Problems with replacing top wing skins.
>
>2. Best way to extend the outboard top skin over the aileron area.
>
>Help !!!!
>
>Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
>Whidbey RV-ators
>Coupeville, WA
>(finishing Right Wing - RV6A)
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> I've heard of "RVator, the last 14 years". If you know of both books, how do
> the two compare? Is it worth getting both, or are they generally the same
> thing?
They're exactly the same thing. It looks like
The actual title is "14 years of the RVator".
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | us245566(at)emi.3m.com |
From: NAME: GREGG, JODY L.
FUNC:
TEL:
Please unsbscibe "jlgregg(at)mmm.com" and
add "us245566(at)ibmmail.com"
Thanks..
J.L.Gregg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Help!!! Major screw up |
A couple of suggestions: I'd do as Chris says (below), but I might
consider back drilling through the ribs with an angle, snake, or long
skinny drill bit, as opposed to using the skin as a template. It would
depend on how good a job you did of drilling out the rivets -- if the
skin holes were mostly much ok after drilling, I'd go ahead and use it
as a template.
Also, get some NAS1097 "Oops" rivets from Van's (3/32" c-sunk head, 1/8"
shank) for any holes that get enlarged -- tough to avoid when drilling
out that many rivets.
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
>
> >I need your help big time today. Discovered that I put the top skin on the
> >bottom and bottom skins on the top of the right wing. Got hurryitis and
> >fell into a big hole.
> >
> >Flap looks like it will be fine with 1/4 inch shorter top skin, but aileron
> >needs help. Any ideas on how to solve. Interested in two attack fronts.
> >
> >1. Problems with replacing top wing skins.
> >
> >2. Best way to extend the outboard top skin over the aileron area.
> >
> >Help !!!!
> >
> >Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
> >Whidbey RV-ators
> >Coupeville, WA
>
> Don:
>
> Boy you have gotten yourself into a pickle, and I thought it was bad
> when I installed the end rib 5/8" inboard (I ended up making the wing 1/2"
> shorter). If I were you I would replace the top wing skin. If you very
> carefully remove it you can use it as a template to drill the proper skin. By
> the way how did this happen, didn't you drill both the top & bottom skins before
> you started riveting? I'm sure the holes would not line up!
>
> If you want to take the other path, which you would hate yourself for
as
> long as you own your RV. You could extend the skin with the curved piece of
> aluminum that attaches under the top wing skin to the rear spare (just behind
> the aileron). I doubt you could cover the seem and I don't know how well it
> will hold up after 500 hours of flight time but it's an idea.
>
>
>
> Chris.
> RV-6 speed wing...
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Tue Dec 13 09:30:48 0800 1994 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: All Those Old RV-ators
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
Sorry folks... If had actually been thinking when I was writing, I
would have noticed that the publisher, content, and price are the same
for the "two" books listed below. That leads me to believe that there
is only one...
In fact... When I ordered the book, they told me that they have had
it referenced by the names below, and some others. Give 'em a call at
the number listed by Randall below. They are very helpful and said
they would ship my copy immediately.
They also indicated that they will be updating the book every couple
of years and that the update pages will be made available as additions
to the current book.
Happy Reading,
Russ
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
Date: 12/12/94 4:46 PM
Randall,
I've heard of "RVator, the last 14 years". If you know of both books, how do
the two compare? Is it worth getting both, or are they generally the same
thing?
thanks,
russ
Randall Henderson wrote:
Buy the book "All those Old RV-Ators", a compendium of articles from
RVator newsletters, organized by subject so it's much easier to find
things than by going through all the old issues. It's available from:
Easy Publishing
328 Luscombe Dr
Los Lunas, NM 87031
(505) 865-3466
$25.95
(I believe Van's sells them as well.)
Randall Henderson
RV-6X
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[6]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
>5> Replace the 3/32 rivets with "oops" rivets. (1/8 rivets w/ 3/32
>flush head.)
>Don, I know you think the failure mode has something to do with the head size
>but do you really have any evidence that head size has anything to
>do with it?
>The oops rivet might be worth a try before trying the other options
>which will
>still be available later.
>Earl
Actually, I don't think 'head size' is the issue, rather 'shank' size. Narrow
rivet in thick materials. I discussed the 'oops' rivet with someone at Van's
and they were concerned about the small amount of head that is left, but it
seems like the thicker shank would help.
I was looking at mine yesterday and basically ALL of the rivets across the
firewall bottom angle are loosening. about %10 of the rivets on the floor
stiffeners are working loose also.
Frank had mentioned that it may be difficult to dimple .040 material, but I have
had good luck with it using the Avery tool. New builders should be able to do
it that way.
What about replacing my 3/32 rivets with the oops rivet (1/8 rivets w/ 3/32
flush head) then adding more 3/32 rivets in between? This would give much
better shank thickness and more 'heads', effectively increasing resistance to
shear and vibration loading. I think the oops rivets would be required anyway
as drilling-out rivets in .125 + .040 material will probably end-up in enlarged
wholes.
Gee, and here I thought I was DONE building my RV :-).
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Help!!! Major screw up |
Don,
Before you do anything drastic, I would find out if an extra 1/4
gap is OK at the ailerons?? The 0.016 aileron gap fairing could be trimmed
and remounted 1/4 inch forward to match. Since the RVs have "slotted"
ailerons, there may be some aerodynamic effects, so why not call Van and
check?? A 1/4 inch isn't that much!!
Even if you swap the top outer skin, why not leave the inboard skin
the 1/4 inch shorter, and build the 1/4 inch skin step (joggle) right at
the outer aileron bracket?? Make the other wing identical.
... good luck ... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701 (I've got a spare left flap!)
>A couple of suggestions: I'd do as Chris says (below), but I might
>consider back drilling through the ribs with an angle, snake, or long
>skinny drill bit, as opposed to using the skin as a template. It would
>depend on how good a job you did of drilling out the rivets -- if the
>skin holes were mostly much ok after drilling, I'd go ahead and use it
>as a template.
>
>Also, get some NAS1097 "Oops" rivets from Van's (3/32" c-sunk head, 1/8"
>shank) for any holes that get enlarged -- tough to avoid when drilling
>out that many rivets.
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6X
>
>>
>> >I need your help big time today. Discovered that I put the top skin on the
>> >bottom and bottom skins on the top of the right wing. Got hurryitis and
>> >fell into a big hole.
>> >
>> >Flap looks like it will be fine with 1/4 inch shorter top skin, but aileron
>> >needs help. Any ideas on how to solve. Interested in two attack fronts.
>> >
>> >1. Problems with replacing top wing skins.
>> >
>> >2. Best way to extend the outboard top skin over the aileron area.
>> >
>> >Help !!!!
>> >
>> >Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
>> >Whidbey RV-ators
>> >Coupeville, WA
>>
>> Don:
>>
>> Boy you have gotten yourself into a pickle, and I thought it was bad
>> when I installed the end rib 5/8" inboard (I ended up making the wing 1/2"
>> shorter). If I were you I would replace the top wing skin. If you very
>> carefully remove it you can use it as a template to drill the proper skin.
>>By
>> the way how did this happen, didn't you drill both the top & bottom skins
>>before
>> you started riveting? I'm sure the holes would not line up!
>>
>> If you want to take the other path, which you would hate yourself
>>for as
>> long as you own your RV. You could extend the skin with the curved piece of
>> aluminum that attaches under the top wing skin to the rear spare (just
>>behind
>> the aileron). I doubt you could cover the seem and I don't know how well it
>> will hold up after 500 hours of flight time but it's an idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris.
>> RV-6 speed wing...
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[6]: Fuselage Rivet Size |
Gil,
I was looking at mine yesterday and basically ALL of the rivets across the
firewall bottom angle are loosening. about %10 of the rivets on the floor
stiffeners are working loose also. This is consistent with another local
builder's experience.
180hp seems to exacerbate the problem. I have nothing that provides added
stability to that area, but I am not having the problem near the spar carry-thru
where all the 'foot' loading occurs during climb-in/out. All of my problems are
at or near the firewall and the battery area (the weight of the battery may be
a
contributor also). I also have overhead rudder pedals, not sure if the old
style stabilizes that area much.
Since you are just now drilling that area, you should have no trouble
substituting 1/8 rivets for 3/32. As I said, I would install that whole floor
pan using 1/8 if I was doing it new.
dw
*** lots of stuff cut out ****
>
> >Gil Alexander #20701 RV6A ... 3 skins drilled and 2 skins
> >half drilled on fuse.
>
>>P.S. I will check out our local flying RV6A this weekend for this problem
>>(200+ hours, but little acrobatics)
>
>>>The rivets that hold the bottom skin to the firewall are a little too
>>>small for the job. Use 1/8" instead of 3/32". Don says that these
>>>rivets in his airplane with 130 hours are already working loose. A
>>>second-hand comment attributed to an A&P was that the only place an
>>>RV-6 is weak is in this area and along the floorboard stiffeners. Don
>>>says it might be a good idea to also use 1/8" rivets to hold this skin
>>>to the F-604 bulkhead since the materials here are thick and the
>>>stresses high.
>>
>>>FKJ
Don and Frank,
I did manage to check out our local flying RV6A this
weekend, but did not manage to talk to the owner.
As you guessed, he was starting to get some loose rivets at the
F604 firewall, but only in the central area. The floorboard rivets are
fine.
Some specific items ... this is a -6A .. does the nosewheel stress
the firewall at the lower mount points more, or is it all engine loads??
He is using "green foam" fibreglassed on both sides in between his floor
stiffeners to get a smooth floor. This will tend to prevent any "spot"
loads on the floor from big feet, and less stress on the floor stiffener
rivets. He also has the floor mounted rudder pedals, does this give any
extra stiffness??
Don ... what sort of arrangement do you have on your floor???
If the problem is really confined to the center of the F604, then
1/8 universal head rivets are not so bad a solution at a closer spacing.
The spec. is 0.5 inch minimum pitch for universal head 1/8 rivets. They
would only be in the portion of the airflow that is masked by the engine
cowling. I bet the airflow is already pretty "dirty" along that edge
already that a few protruding rivets won't make any difference. The outer
portions of the F604/lower skin in the regular airflow could then be
handled by the half spacing flush 3/32 rivet fix.
Any other thoughts??? ... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
This skin's next to drill!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
| Subject: | Fuselage Rivet Siae |
There has been a considerable amount of conversation about the rivets
loosening in the floorboard. If this is such a widespread problem, Van
should have a fix. What is it? Was not there some talk about Ken Scott
getting connected to this list. Has that happened? Coudl not he
answer the rivet question? Is Van aware of this problem?
laurens (finished tail and starting wings on RV6)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Rivet Siae |
I have been talking with Van's about it, but until they have a solid
recommendation, they aren't going to say anything. I will say that they
are discussing it, in the meantime we need to make our own decisions until
the 'official' word comes-out. Most of you can wait, some can't (like
Gil), so we keep having these discussions.
dw
There has been a considerable amount of conversation about the rivets
loosening in the floorboard. If this is such a widespread problem, Van
should have a fix. What is it? Was not there some talk about Ken Scott
getting connected to this list. Has that happened? Coudl not he
answer the rivet question? Is Van aware of this problem?
laurens (finished tail and starting wings on RV6)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | support (Matronics Technical Support 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Change Requests... |
Hello RVers!
I am getting a lot of RV-LIST requests (change email address, add, delete,
etc.) to my personal account. This is not the best way to get your request
handled quickly. I am often 2 or more weeks behind in my rv-list mail and
don't find the requests that are bured in 100-200 messages for quite a while.
***** Please direct *ALL* inqueries and requests regarding the list to:
rv-list-request(at)matronics.com
This email box receives much less mail and I tend to check it about every
other day or so.
Please pass the word.
Thank you, and keep those great RV discussions coming!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Mounting the white nav lite ?? |
Note last week asked about how to mount nav light?
My question, is it better to mount the white nav light in the tail or use
the three way lights that include position, nav and strobe on the wing.
Will the three way light add complexity, save weight or interfere with an
antenna in the wingtip? Will additional drag be significant?
Bob Busick
RV-6
Las Cruces NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Hathcock <scotth(at)icbdfcs5.fc.hp.com> |
Hi All,
I am Scott Hathcock, scotth(at)fc.hp.com, and I am getting serious about
building an RV. I have not yet decided between a 4 or 6. I currently own
an LS4. No it's not a typo, it's a glider.
My garage is almost finished and I will start tooling up after
Christmas. Does anyone have a good list of needed vs wanted tools. Sears
is having a sale on their air compressors (made by DeVeBliss). Does anyone
have any experience with these? How do they hold up? How much flow@pressure
do I need?
If any of you are in the Fort Collins CO area, I would love to
see both finished and unfinished RV4s and RV6s. I would also love a ride if
possible (I would of course cover costs.).
My experience with sailplanes causes me to lean toward an RV4 but
my passenger (wife) would probably like the 6 better. Lets here the pros and
cons.
Thanks,
Scotth
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Help!!! Major screw up |
I think Bob may be referring to me (Jim Anglin) as the party who had the same
or similar problem with skins being too short on the outboard end of the
wing. Call me @(503) 642-2797 if you want some help. Mine came out looking
factory, and are just as strong.
JA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Mounting the white nav lite ?? (fwd) |
My 2 cents worth.
1) The white nav lt on the wing tip would be easier as there is no
need to run elect. wire to the tail.
One drawback is you need to get the rudder fiberglass fairing
that does not have the nav light cut out. Van will swap with you.
2) The wt should not be an issue. The wing tip version would be slightly
heavier.
3) Regarding the antenna, that should not be a problem as the nav lt.
is a steady current flow (unlike the strobes) and you already have
the red/green tip light out there anyway so all you add is a little
more current (amps).
4) Drag should be minor increase but probably not measurable.
On my RV4, I went with the conventional tail light. I think it was
more because I thought the lights with the tail lt on the wing tip
were a little ugly looking.
Herman
> Note last week asked about how to mount nav light?
> My question, is it better to mount the white nav light in the tail or use
> the three way lights that include position, nav and strobe on the wing.
> Will the three way light add complexity, save weight or interfere with an
> antenna in the wingtip? Will additional drag be significant?
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
> Las Cruces NM
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Mounting the white nav lite ?? |
I used the 3-way because:
1 Easier to mount all in one place
2 The less weight you put in the tail the better
3 Less complexity, it uses the same circuit as the colored position lights
4 No interference or added drag - you already have the position lights & strobe
out there anyway
dw
>Note last week asked about how to mount nav light?
>My question, is it better to mount the white nav light in the tail or use
>the three way lights that include position, nav and strobe on the wing.
>Will the three way light add complexity, save weight or interfere with an
>antenna in the wingtip? Will additional drag be significant?
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
>Las Cruces NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]- Mounting the whit |
Reply to: RE>Re[2]: Mounting the white nav lite ??
Just a small note here gang... but think about the reason you have lights =
on your airplane... I call em DONT HIT ME lights... you want to be as =
well seen as possible right? spread them out! the weight/drag vs. =
saftey isnt even an issue to me...
Doug.
--------------------------------------
Date: 12/16/1994 9:22 AM
From: Don Wentz
I used the 3-way because:
1 Easier to mount all in one place
2 The less weight you put in the tail the better
3 Less complexity, it uses the same circuit as the colored position =
lights
4 No interference or added drag - you already have the position lights & =
strobe
out there anyway
dw
>Note last week asked about how to mount nav light?
>My question, is it better to mount the white nav light in the tail or use =
>the three way lights that include position, nav and strobe on the wing.
>Will the three way light add complexity, save weight or interfere with an =
>antenna in the wingtip? Will additional drag be significant?
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
>Las Cruces NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]- Mounting the whit |
>
> Just a small note here gang... but think about the reason you have lights =
> on your airplane... I call em DONT HIT ME lights... you want to be as =
> well seen as possible right? spread them out! the weight/drag vs. =
> saftey isnt even an issue to me...
>
> Doug.
>
Ok then I'd argue that TWO white lights (as in the 3 way wingtip
lights) could be as good as (or maybe better than) ONE on the
tail, no?
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]- Mounting the whit |
>>
>> Just a small note here gang... but think about the reason you have lights =
>> on your airplane... I call em DONT HIT ME lights... you want to be as =
>> well seen as possible right? spread them out! the weight/drag vs. =
>> saftey isnt even an issue to me...
>>
>> Doug.
>>
I don't think the little white lights help all that much in visibility -
big, bright flashing strobes and intense halogen landing lights (ala the
Duckworks specials much ballyhoed here) help more than one itty bitty tail
light or two itty bitty wingtip lights.
IMHO
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV Mailing List Request |
Please me to the RV builders list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]- Mounting the whit |
All good points. The wingtip mounted strobe and position system gives
opportunity to have multiple strobes working. I think there is high value
in that.
>>
>> Just a small note here gang... but think about the reason you have lights =
>> on your airplane... I call em DONT HIT ME lights... you want to be as =
>> well seen as possible right? spread them out! the weight/drag vs. =
>> saftey isnt even an issue to me...
>>
>> Doug.
>>
>
>Ok then I'd argue that TWO white lights (as in the 3 way wingtip
>lights) could be as good as (or maybe better than) ONE on the
>tail, no?
>
>Randall
>
>
Don Meehan
WSU Cooperative Extension
Island County
Coupeville, WA 98239-5000
206-679-7327
meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin) |
Please change my email address from:
hsutphin(at)etm4862.orl.mmc.com
hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com
Thanks
H.Sutphin
RV6A //only 11,800 more rivets to go//
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
After taking too much time off of the project for Grad school, I'm getting back
into the game over Christmas break.
I bought my ProSeal for the fuel tanks about 6 months ago, and never opened it.
What's the shelf life on this stuff if it's never been opened. Should I buy a
new batch?
Dave Hyde
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
nauga(at)glue.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
Hi,
I'm new to the RV list, and homebuilding. I have ordered RV6A plans
and am in the process of acquiring tools and building a shop in my
basement. Any help/suggestions on this would be appreciated. I hope
to order the empennage kit in the spring.
I live in Fort Collins, Co (about 65 north of Denver). I write
software for the Hewlett-Packard company there (Hi Scott). If anyone
within reasonable distance would like to show off their RV project, I
would love to come visit.
I have about 400 hours in 152's, 172's, and PA28-150's. I have never
flown a homebuilt. I do have some apprehension about 'sport plane'
handling vs. the factory built airplanes I'm used to. There does not
seem to be a performance specification for stability. Can anyone
address this for RV's?
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
If there is a shelf life for ProSeal, I know it is more than three years
after being opened because I have a can of the stuff I have used periodically
for the last 3 + years. If you inadvertently get some hardener in the can,
though, it will surely speed up the shelf life :-).
Jim Anglin-HIO
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Mounting the white lite |
As the one who originally posted the 'white tail light' question, I
want to thank those who responded. The fiberglass fairing is nothing
more than a shell, so to install the lighting fixture some work is
required that is not outlined in the plans. That work looks like it
includes cutting some rudder metal away to make room for the fixture.
For those who suggested the combo wingtip lights, I pondered that, but
the shape of the wingtip might cause improper coverage from above. To
get the full coverage, the light assy needs to be extended outward
(laterally), and I just don't like the look of that. (And I suspect
that it certainly has more drag than the little fairing on the
rudder.) I know that the RV is not a certified airplane, and is not
subject to all the requirements that a certified A/C is subject to,
but it will fly around in the same airspace as certified aircraft, so
(at least in my opinion) it makes sense to match the certificated
requirements as much as practical -- especially where no significant
cost is involved -- just some decisions. The nav light coverage
requirements are published in the FARS (23 I believe) and in Canada,
the Airworthiness Manual Chapter 523. They are even detailed in the
old Civil Air Regs, CAR-3 which the traditional Cessna and Piper
singles were certified against. Take a look some night at a Cessna or
Piper when it flies directly overhead. From below you can see both the
red and green lights simultaneously. Immediately after it passes you
can see the white lite, as the red and green ones disappear. I want to
get that kind of coverage with the nav lights on my RV.
My wingtip lighting plans are to use Vans little windows on the fwd
wingtip to hold the red and green light, and two small strobes
(possibly combo lights). That configuration emulates what is
common in high performance singles and twins. Proper coverage should
not be a problem.
Concerning the visibility of the nav lights, I ordered a factory new
Whelen A555A-V-14, (I work in an Avionics Shop these days), and I was
surprised at how intense (bright) the bulb is. It draws 1.8 amps at
13.75 VDC, and bulb iteself looks like a Halogen bulb. (i.e. double
coil filement, pointed glass tip on the bulb, high heat ceramic 'push
in' socket). It hurts the eyes to look directly at it. I am left with
the impression that is is much brighter then the 'brake light' class
bulb we used to install in nav lite fixtures.
I am still thinking about aft strobe coverage. The wingtip combo light
would solve that (but again -- I just don't like the way it looks. I
might put a small strobe on the aft belly, but I am still thinking
about this.
Thanks again for the suggestions and comments.
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Mounting the white lite |
Hi Bob,
Re your message- RV's are certified in Australia!!!
Bit of extra paperwork and some interesting test flying.
Regards
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Mounting the white lite
Date: 18/12/94 9:21 PM
Stuff deleted!!
I know that the RV is not a certified
airplane, and is not subject to all the
requirements that a certified A/C is subject
to, but it will fly around in the same
airspace as certified aircraft, so (at least
in my opinion) it makes sense to match the
certificated requirements as much as
practical -- especially where no significant
cost is involved -- just some decisions.
Stuff deleted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
>I bought my ProSeal for the fuel tanks about 6 months ago, and never opened it.
>What's the shelf life on this stuff if it's never been opened. Should I buy a
>new batch?
Dave:
I had about one-third of a can that was a little over a year old. It had a thin
skin on it which I peeled off. The remainder was the proper consistency. It
hardened at the proper rate and to the froper firmness compared to new stuff,
stuck just as well to aluminum, and resisted soaking in autogas for over a week
with no sign of softening.
Frank J.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: ProSeal
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 94 11:54:57 EDT
From: tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> After taking too much time off of the project for Grad school, I'm getting back
> into the game over Christmas break.
> I bought my ProSeal for the fuel tanks about 6 months ago, and never opened it.
> What's the shelf life on this stuff if it's never been opened. Should I buy
a
> new batch?
>
> Dave Hyde
My can says shelf life 9 months. It's also dependent on
temperature though. The manuf. date should be on the can.
My can was skinned over on the top when I first opened it,
and it was only 2 months old. It was fine underneath, but
be aware of that possiblity, so if that happens to you you can
carefully pull off the "skin" so it doesn't get mixed in.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>
>>I bought my ProSeal for the fuel tanks about 6 months ago, and never opened
>>it.
>>What's the shelf life on this stuff if it's never been opened. Should I buy
a
>>new batch?
>
>Dave:
>
>I had about one-third of a can that was a little over a year old. It had a
>thin
>skin on it which I peeled off. The remainder was the proper consistency. It
>hardened at the proper rate and to the froper firmness compared to new stuff,
>stuck just as well to aluminum, and resisted soaking in autogas for over a
>week
>with no sign of softening.
>
>Frank J.
Dave,
Like most chemicals, it's very temperature dependant. The
manufacturer only rates it (the white part) at 6 months shelf life at room
temperature.
I've kept mine in the refrigerator, sealed in a Ziploc bag, for
extended storage life.
But, if it's for fuel tank use, is it really worth saving $40 to
use a material past it's expiration date?? Think of the rework to fix a
fuel tank if a problem developed after a year or two of use. Just because
the material set up, doesn't mean it has all of it's designed properties.
If you are doing your fuel tanks with it, don't take any risks!!
.... buy fresh stuff!!
Gil Alexander ... RV6A #20701 ... 6 fuse skins drilled
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Anybody out there? |
Hello all RV builders,
Last week I sent out a message to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com with
the word "subscribe" in the Subject and Body of the message. I've yet
to receive anything, i.e. no confirmation that I got subscribed and
no other RV messages either.
My request therefore is for somebody to email me to inform me whether
there is any activity on the RV mailing list and maybe some hints as to
what I did wrong in my attempt to subscribe.
Thanks,
Andreas Meyer
P.S. I re-subsribed this morning again for a second time and still
have not received anything. All the other lists that I have
subscriptions to seem to work fine, so I doubt the problem is
on this end.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody out there? |
>--------------
>
> Hello all RV builders,
>
> Last week I sent out a message to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com with
> the word "subscribe" in the Subject and Body of the message. I've yet
> to receive anything, i.e. no confirmation that I got subscribed and
> no other RV messages either.
>
> My request therefore is for somebody to email me to inform me whether
> there is any activity on the RV mailing list and maybe some hints as to
> what I did wrong in my attempt to subscribe.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andreas Meyer
>
> P.S. I re-subsribed this morning again for a second time and still
> have not received anything. All the other lists that I have
> subscriptions to seem to work fine, so I doubt the problem is
> on this end.
>--------------
Sorry for the delay, Andreas. I've been out with a really bad flu and havn't
been keeping up with the list of the new subscriptions. I'll add you today.
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
>
> > [snip]
> > >
> > > And lastly, I was surprised to see a mention of a computer bbs and not
> > > even a hint about this great list!! How about one of you guys close to
> > > Van mentioning it to him..??! The more the merrier.
> >
> > I've been trying for a while to get Ken S> cott (who edits the RVator) to
> > get an internet account, but it's like pushing a string. Ken's kind of
> > a technophobe, he likes to tell people he doesn't own a TV, VCR or
> > answering machine, and keeps threatening to disconnect his phone, but
> > he also says he'd like to get on the Internet. I have provided him with
> > the information he needs to get set up with a cheap local account and
> > hook up to the rv-list, I'm surprised he didn't say anything about it
> > in the RVator. Maybe he still doesn't quite understand the difference
> > between the internet and a BBS. I'll keep working on him.
> >
> > Randall Henderson
> > RV-6X
> >
>
> BTW,
>
> I've been talking to Ken Scott about this as well, trying to push the
> idea. It seems that the fear from Van's as told by Ken is that
> participation in such a forum (internet rv-list) would take relatively
> a large investment in time, yet reach a small percentage of RV builders....
>
> So... what Ken would really like to know, is how many builders, potential
> builders etc really have access to and would use an electronic forum
> of some sort. I thought he was going to publish a question to that
> effect in the RVator but missed it if he did.
> >
> > So there IS progress....
>
> We need to make our numbers known if Van's is going to have any serious
> interest in an electronic forum.
>
> Lurker and intermittent RV builder-
> Steve Harris
> DPL HW Engineering
> 627-2454 Voice
> 627-5548 Fax
> email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM Public Key Available
>--------------
The member count one the RV-LIST is now at 155 and growing every day. I add
about 5 members a week!! I do see Ken Scott's point about relitivly small
number of builders, but we're a powerful, noisy group!!
Have Ken give me a call sometime if he wants. We can talk about potentials...
:-) 510-447-9886
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: www rv home page |
>--------------
> I just accessed this RV www page via Mosiac and it works.
> I added it to my hot list.
> The photos are a little slow to load over the net and also a little dark.
> How about putting a picture of my Pitts in there just so they can see
> what a REAL plane looks like? At least as a place holder till the
> RV4 is painted.
> Herman
>
> > From root Fri Dec 9 18:39:05 1994
> > Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 15:17:46 -0800
> > Message-Id: <9412092317.AA17867(at)apple.com>
> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> > From: apple.com!hovan(at)matronics.com (John Hovan)
> > Subject: Re: Last Letter
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > A dedicated RV Web page has been started! You can access wonderful
> > pictures and information gathered from this group along with scanned images
> > of Van's literature using...
> >
> > http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
> >
> > ...and using a browser such as Mosaic. If you are not sure how to access
> > this server, please ask a buddy. I'll be busy adding more RV information.
> >
> > I have scanned some of Van's literature and have included it on this server
> > as well as a picture of Tony B's plane. If you hear that Van objects to
> > having this literature on the internet, please let me know and I'll remove
> > it. I looked fairly close at his literature and did not see a copyright or
> > disclaimer from using the information.
> >
> > If I receive Frank's manual addition, I would be happy to post it as well.
> > Feedback is welcome!
> >
> > enjoy it,
> > John
>
>--------------
Well of course it's slow: the www server is running on a Mac! And they
*admit it*! ;-) Seriously though, nice home page, John. I've added it
to my 'hot list' too!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anybody out there? |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Andreas Meyer inquires:
> I've yet
> to receive anything, i.e. no confirmation that I got subscribed and
> no other RV messages either.
Welcome to the RV list Andreas. There hasn't been a lot of activity
over the last day or two but it appears that you're online regardless.
The postings tend to ebb and flow. All you have to do to get
things rolling is to introduce yourself, tell us a little about your
aviation interests, and then ask a couple of questions like "which is
better, an RV-6 or an RV-6A?" Or maybe "should I get a wood or
constant speed prop?" That always stirs things up a bit :-)
Regards,
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | expiration of tail # |
I've got a question about how long the assigned aircraft tail # is good
for. I received mine last April '94 and its good until April '95 (?).
At the time I received it, I also applied for and received my registration
for my RV6A (N615RV). I had planned to have it inspected by April '95, but
since my company is planning to keep me in Norway until April '95, there's no
chance I'll have the plane completed. My question is:
Does the assigned number expire in April '95, or is it good forever, since
I've got the registration also? Ie. Do I need the Airworthiness Certificate
to be able to keep the tail #, or does the possession of the registration
have the same effect?
I figured I'd mail to the group, since its likely somebody has encountered this
before. I'll be in Norway through April, so I'd like to take care of it in
time. I'll probably call the local FSDO to see if they can help.
Gary Bataller
95% RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New member profile |
Greetings, fellow RV Enthusiasts -
I just joined this mailing list and per Matt's suggestion, I will
tell you a little about myself and my project.
My name is Blake Harral. I reside in Scottsdale, AZ (Phoenix metro
area). I am constructing an RV-4 (plans #2401). I have the tail, wings,
and fuselage kits about 80% complete. I seem to start on the next kit
before finishing the previous!
I have the finish kit and the fuselage is on the gear. I don't have an
engine yet, and since I'm just wishing for one, I might as well wish for
a Lyc 180 with C/S. I have gone to the trouble of modifying my firewall
to clear a rear-mounted prop governer.
My project is underway at Deer Valley airport in North Phoenix. There are
Four flying RV's at this field - one each of RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, and RV-6A.
All are 0-320 fixed pitch.
The RV-4 was recently completed by a close friend of mine. I believe his
plane weighed around 920 empty. Both he and a couple of other pilots who
have flown the airplane felt that handling was fine solo, but with a rear
seat passenger, the elevator did not have enough stick force per G
(Elevator too light, or sensitive). He purchased a Harmonic Dampner from
Mark Landoll at the Van's flyin, and this improves the handling somewhat
although the elevator forces are still too light with a rear seat passenger.
Dennis says the harmonic balancer increased his full throttle RPM. Is this
effect typical? It seems obvious that adding the dampner would decrease
the RPM ACCELERATION, but if the dampner preserves energy better between
power strokes, then the maximum RPM might increase.
I would appreciate comments from RV owners with C/S props. How it affected
weight/balance - did you move your battery? The Hartzell that Van OEMs is
72", I believe - how much ground clearance does this leave? How are elevator
forces with a passenger.
I would also like to know if any RV-4 builders have developed a GOOD solution
for rear rudder pedals (and maybe brakes). Dennis wants to install rear rudder
pedals ( and I am more that eager to help him, since he says he will check me
out in his RV as soon as we can fabricate some). He ordered Van's rear pedal
kit, but was not impressed and ended up returning it.
And finally, I would like to know if any builder has painted his RV with a
two-stage (base coat, clear coat) paint system. I have been told that the
base color coat has some of the desirable properties of lacqers (i.e. quick
drying, ease to sand and respray). I am further told that that clear coat has
(in some cases) some of the properties of the polyurethanes (i.e. high gloss
'wet look' finish, very good UV and chemical resistance). Almost sounds too
good to be true. My current feeling about paint is that durability and ease
of application are more important than the cost or weight of the finish.
(I seem to recall reading somewhere in Van's writings that he believed a paint
finish could weigh from 15 lbs for a light finish (no primer, minimum coats)
to 40 lbs for a heavier one. These numbers seem a little high to me. Anybody
have weights for their RV before and after painting?)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
Hello RV'ers,
first I want to thank everybody that replied to my message yesterday.
I got a lot of replies and I hope that I responded to everyone and did
not miss anyone.
I started flying in January this year and got my PPASEL ticket in May.
I have been an aviation fanatic for many years (subscribing to all kinds
of aviation mags and reading all kinds of books) but have had to wait
till now to find the time and money to afford flying. I did also fly
gliders a few years back. I did not get the certificate back then because
I got married and built a house, etc. Now the plane building bug has
really bit me. After flying various planes (Cessna 150, 172, Piper 140,
161, 180) I concluded that I would love to have my own plane rather than
renting but also would rather build one myself than buy a used one. I
realize that this is not a money saving proposition and is a real time
sink. I've talked it over with my wife and I got the green light.
How far am I along? Well, not very far. As a matter of fact I've just
ordered the video and info pack from Vans last week and it hasn't come
in yet. I'm really looking forward to the info though.
Why am I interested in the RV? For several reasons. It's a popular design
and has lots of good support. I think it will fill my needs (waiting for
the info) as a good cross country plane with reasonable luggage space for
two (RV-6 or RV-6A). It's a plane with very good flying characteristics,
i.e. fast, yet slow in the pattern. It's a metal plane. I rather not mess
around with composites here in New England. It gets cold in the winter
time and I don't like the idea of having to work with a material that is
temperature and/or humidity sensitive. I also plan on doing a lot of the
building during the winter months because summers tend to be pretty busy
for me due to my other hobbies. Yes, they may suffer, but I do want the
buiding experience to be a pleasurable one and I think that a project of
that magnitude has greater chances of succesfully being completed if you
can take your mind of it from time to time. I'm speaking from experience
here because I also built my own house and what really helped me get
through the tougher times were my other hobbies/activities.
I've already used up more of your time than I intended, time that could
have been used building :-) and I will not ask any questions this time.
I will wait till the info pack comes in and then fire away. In the mean
time go to your planes and build away.
Andreas Meyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob_Seibert-R18643(at)email.sps.mot.com |
Subscribe
I am an RV builder and flyer with about 400 hours on an RV-6. I am interested in
subscribing to this bb.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Ed, there are definitely many active RV builders and flyers in the state of
Colorado, including the best exhaust maker (Hi-Country). You should be able to
connect with some of them, in fact there used to be an RV newsletter written by
someone on this list (Doug Bloomberg).
As to flying experience and an RV, I used to have the same trepidation, but let
me tell you my findings.
I got my license in January of 83 with 45 hrs TT. As of 92 I had appx 100 hrs
TT. I then flew about 30 hrs in a T-Craft. So, as of June of this year, I had
about 130 Total hours (P-SEL), with my longest Xcountry being about 100 miles.
I was extremely fortunate to get a couple hours of dual in a local bldrs RV-6
with Mike Seager, but still didn't feel up to doing the first flight in my baby,
so Mike did it on June 30 of this year. He then 'checked me out' in my RV-6 and
off I went.
Having only 130 hours over an 11 year period, I was certainly not a hot-shot,
proficient pilot. Even so, I have found the RV-6 to be an EXTREMELY easy tran-
sition. The -6 is a joy to fly, no bad habits, VERY docile in the pattern.
True, 3-point landings are a bit of an art, but once you learn the secret, they
are very repeatable, and I can consistently 'grease' them on calm days. In
windy conditions, they get considerably more difficult, due to the reponsiveness
and sporty nature, but you just have to stay with it and continue with the
control inputs until fully down and rolling-out. I ALWAYS pull to full idle on
final, to land as slowly as possible. You CAN'T stall a -6 during landing, as
you can't get enough angle on, but you can keep it to a minimal 'skip' by
maintaining proper attitude. I NEVER wheel land it, too much tire wear and
really no need for it, except for X-windy conditions, possibly.
About the biggest problem I have is dealing with other aircraft in the pattern.
At low throttle settings, you are often cruising at >120mph on downwind, which
is near or above top speed for many Cessnas. I typically pass the end of the
runway at above 100mph when I am alone in the pattern, so not running-over other
planes takes some paying attention.
So, even though I was concerned about being able to 'handle' the RV, I found it
to not be that dramatic of a change and now have 133 hrs in it. Just build it,
you'll love it like I do!!!
Don Wentz, 180hp RV-6, N790DW.
Hi,
I'm new to the RV list, and homebuilding. I have ordered RV6A plans
and am in the process of acquiring tools and building a shop in my
basement. Any help/suggestions on this would be appreciated. I hope
to order the empennage kit in the spring.
I live in Fort Collins, Co (about 65 north of Denver). I write
software for the Hewlett-Packard company there (Hi Scott). If anyone
within reasonable distance would like to show off their RV project, I
would love to come visit.
I have about 400 hours in 152's, 172's, and PA28-150's. I have never
flown a homebuilt. I do have some apprehension about 'sport plane'
handling vs. the factory built airplanes I'm used to. There does not
seem to be a performance specification for stability. Can anyone
address this for RV's?
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Test Message... Ignore. |
Cleaning the list up a bit, please ignore...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi,
My name is Don Karl. I'm a new subscriber to the rv-list.
I'm not building any plane yet, but considering getting started
on a Glasair SuperII-S fixed tricycle or an RV6A soon.
I'm leaning toward the Glasair because of the higher useful load
and I'd prefer to work with fiberglass, but I'm not positive yet,
the Glasair is so expensive.
I'm hoping that following this mail list will give me more insight
into RV's.
I've been interested in building a plane for a couple years and
I went to Oshkosh '93 and I left with the idea of building an RV6A.
I even bought plans.
I have primarily one question at this time: Could some of you with
RV6's and RV6A's, share your experience with me concerning
your heavier flights?
I ask this as I'm about 210lbs, my primary destination is 500 miles
as the crow flies, and I'd like to carry baggage and various
passengers. Flights would be up and down the east coast; low
altitude runways, but over 90 degrees F in summer. As you can
see, I may have to opt for light passengers or refueling. I could
just lose weight??? Nahhh.
Please feel free to respond directly with E-mail should you
prefer.
Thanks,
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | expiration of tail # (fwd) |
The FAA only holds your N number for 1 year. You either have
complete the regrestration of your aircraft to offically bind the
number to your plane or you have to keep sending them $5 (or $10
whatever it is) each year so they will continue to hold the N number.
I would just keep sending them the money until you are ready to
register the aircraft. In some states, you may have to pay taxes
on the airplane if it is registered.
Don't feel bad. I did the same thing. I let the old N number expire
and applied for a new (different) one again. Have not got the
paper work back yet and its been a month now.
Herman
> From root Tue Dec 20 16:18:27 1994
> From: tif312.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)matronics.com (Gary Bataller)
> Message-Id: <9412201607.AA08704(at)tif312.ED.RAY.COM>
> Subject: expiration of tail #
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 11:07:39 -0500 (EST)
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 943
>
> I've got a question about how long the assigned aircraft tail # is good
> for. I received mine last April '94 and its good until April '95 (?).
> At the time I received it, I also applied for and received my registration
> for my RV6A (N615RV). I had planned to have it inspected by April '95, but
> since my company is planning to keep me in Norway until April '95, there's no
> chance I'll have the plane completed. My question is:
>
> Does the assigned number expire in April '95, or is it good forever, since
> I've got the registration also? Ie. Do I need the Airworthiness Certificate
> to be able to keep the tail #, or does the possession of the registration
> have the same effect?
>
> I figured I'd mail to the group, since its likely somebody has encountered this
> before. I'll be in Norway through April, so I'd like to take care of it in
> time. I'll probably call the local FSDO to see if they can help.
>
>
>
> Gary Bataller
> 95% RV6A
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob_Seibert-R18643(at)email.sps.mot.com |
New guy
I am new to the RV-list. I heard about this thru Deene Ogden who is a very
active EAA'er here in Austin, Tx. Some info on my project and me:
Bob (and Diane) Seibert, 3405 Rockyhollow Trail, Georgetown, Tx. 78628
phone - 512-933-5716 (work) 512-869-0518 (home)
I am president of EAA Chapter 187 and really enjoy the people I get to meet
I am flying RV-6 s/n 20691. It first flew Oct. '92. I have approx. 400 hours on
the tach. at this time. I have the engine down for a major overhaul this month.
(high oil consumption @ 2000 hrs. engine time)
The airplane is N691RV. It is red with a sliding canopy, cut down metal prop,
150HP, and it flys great. My wife and I built it in a 2 car garage.My wife,
Diane, soloed in it as a student pilot. We have flown it all over the country.
We flew to the Bahamas with it after Sun & Fun last year and I would recommend
the trip.
Before anyone tells me about the cutdown propellor, I am aware of the possible
problems. After running some vibration studies on the props, I can assure you
they will ALWAYS be experimental. I also continue to fly behind one of them.
They outperform C/S props.
We burn Mogas in the engine whenever possible but are careful about conditions
conducive to vaporlock. An RV WILL vaporlock on mogas if you do dumb things! I
will forward a copy of a mogas article from our Chapter newsletter in the near
future.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
Don Wentz recently reported you can't stall an RV-6 on landing because you can't
get a high enough angle of attack. I think he meant you can't routinely do a
power off, full stall, three point landing where you touch the tail wheel first
and then drop the mains on (like I do EVERY time in my 7ECA. Well almost
everytime. How about usually. Okay, sometimes. Once in a blue moon?). I
assume an RV-6 can be stalled at any altitude. Can you touch the tail wheel of
an RV-6 first if you keep the power in?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing an RV-6 |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
J. Rion Bourgeois comments:
> Don Wentz recently reported you can't stall an RV-6 on landing because you can't
> get a high enough angle of attack. I think he meant you can't routinely do a
> power off, full stall, three point landing where you touch the tail wheel first
> and then drop the mains on
> everytime. How about usually. Okay, sometimes. Once in a blue moon?). I
> Can you touch the tail wheel of
> an RV-6 first if you keep the power in?
I hear Don's complaint quite frequently and I don't really understand it.
Maybe it depends on what you mean by "full stall." If you mean nose-
falling-through-the-horizon full stall, then probably no--not at anything
close to 1g (unaccelerated stall) but that wouldn't be very useful for
landing anyway. If you mean full stall to the point that a very high sink
acceleration is about to develop because of a rapid decay of lift, then
yes I believe the RV-6s that I have landed will give you a three point
landing with full flaps and the throttle at idle. I've done it several
times. Maybe you can even touch the tailwheel a tad sooner than the
mains but I usually plant 'em all at once.
Different opinions must be the result of different techniques but I
don't use a technique any different than I've used for consistent
"normal" full-stall landings in the more than half-dozen other taildragger
models that I've flown. Basically the steps are a stabilized approach
at the target airspeed on short final with power and full flaps.
Just above flare height (about 25-30 feet up) I do a final airspeed
check. If it's two or three knots higher than target, then I start the
flare earlier than usual because I have excess energy to burn off
in the flare. If it's a little lower than target, then I delay the
beginning of the flare a little longer than usual because I have less
energy than usual and in a sense, the resulting higher angle of
attack has already put me part way into the flare attitude. The flare
is a very gradual and continuous transition that takes many seconds
to complete to touchdown. Most pilots rush it and that's why balloon
landings are so common. On the other hand, if it takes too long the
airplane will float. As the stick comes back in the flare, the
throttle comes back smoothly and continuously too so that ideally
the stick and throttle are all the way back just as the wheels touch.
Of couse the rates that they are pulled back depends on the local
gusts, sinkers, and lift and adjustments have to be made depending on
the situation. It's a rare day that it's so calm that the controls are
operated completely smoothly and with contant rate. Once I take
the final airspeed check before the flare, I don't look at the A/S again.
That final airspeed check and the resulting modification of flare
height really helps to improve consistency. I also use different
A/S targets for different weights--heavy results in a faster target.
I'm really interested in flying a target angle of attack but because
I don't have an AOA gauge, I have to change my target airspeed depending
on weight.
I don't have a lot of time in RVs but I haven't found them to be at
all unusual. By the way, I pretty much use the same technique to
full stall land all the airplanes that I fly including light twins.
The nose attitude isn't really than much lower in a trike when the
mains touch.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | RV-WWW Page Updated |
Hi All,
The RV dedicated World Wide Web page has been updated with Frank Justice's
manual addition. The conversion was completed last night from DOS to Mac
to HTML format. I haven't had time to proofread, so there still may be a
few areas needing polish from the conversion. Please mail me if you see
anything needing changed. Your browser may see things differently than
the Mac versions (Netscape and Mosaic) I used to view them.
As there are a lot of new people who have joined recently, the address to
this World Wide Web home page is...
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
I would also like to extend an offer to everyone on the RV-Mailing list...
If you would like to have a picture of your project, plane or yourself on
this web page, please mail your photo to me at...
John Hovan
1205 Felsmere Drive
Pflugerville, TX 78660
Remember, over 25 million people all over the world would be able to see
your photo.
I plan on publishing a section called "Meet RV Builders" where I can place
your picture and/or your project in the background. This way, we can put a
face to all those disparaging remarks. Seriously, if you live in Austin,
give me a call and I can make arrangements to film your project/plane and
yourself to include it on the Web page. (512) 251-9009 The answering
machine will say Rosetta Stone, but that's me.
I would like to thank Frank Justice for sending his manual so quickly! It
is my judgment that his efforts will save me and others quite a bit of time
and money! I found myself reading them rather than finishing the work
converting them to html. Thanks again Frank!
enjoy,
John Hovan
Austin, TX
Items to ponder:
Do you think someday we will have an internet connection in our workshops
and be building from plans that Van updated minutes earlier?
Did you notice that Van doesn't really have a company logo?
ps. Many people have commented on the response time of this server. We
have a Macintosh trying to do the work of a Cray, so be patient. The Apple
Corporate home pages lead to our individual pages via Smorgasbord and our
volume is up 500% since opening the server. You can reach the Apple server
at...www(at)spock.austin.apple.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | richards(at)sofkin.ca (Mark Richardson) |
| Subject: | Re: New subscriber |
>Hi,
>
>My name is Don Karl. I'm a new subscriber to the rv-list.
Hi Don
>
>I'm not building any plane yet, but considering getting started
>on a Glasair SuperII-S fixed tricycle or an RV6A soon.
Go with the RV!!
>
>I'm leaning toward the Glasair because of the higher useful load
>and I'd prefer to work with fiberglass, but I'm not positive yet,
>the Glasair is so expensive.
Yup. I think you can just about have an RV flting for the cost
of the Glasair kit (well, close anyway).
>
>I'm hoping that following this mail list will give me more insight
>into RV's.
>
>I've been interested in building a plane for a couple years and
>I went to Oshkosh '93 and I left with the idea of building an RV6A.
>I even bought plans.
>
>I have primarily one question at this time: Could some of you with
>RV6's and RV6A's, share your experience with me concerning
>your heavier flights?
>
>I ask this as I'm about 210lbs, my primary destination is 500 miles
>as the crow flies, and I'd like to carry baggage and various
>passengers. Flights would be up and down the east coast; low
>altitude runways, but over 90 degrees F in summer. As you can
>see, I may have to opt for light passengers or refueling. I could
>just lose weight??? Nahhh.
I outweigh anybody on this list. I top the scales at about 330lbs,
am 6'4", and have 26" wide shoulders. I flew in Vans RV-6A at Oshkosh
in '93 with Mike Seager (who isn't any lightweight himself) and we had
no problems getting off in about 500' (it was over 85 degrees). I'm not
sure of the fuel load at the time, but Mike had just started doing demos
so I'm sure there was plenty.
In other words, don't sweat the weight.
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Senior Systems Analyst 65 Iber Rd. *
* VOX 613-831-0888 Stittsville, Ont *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca K2S 1E7 *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - 1506 *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Hey Bob, welcome. Nice to have some input from another experienced RV flier.
I
guarantee that some postings discussing Mogas and the studies you've done on cut
down metal props would generate some good dialog.
I would like some performance info on that prop, just for comparison. So far,
I'm too chicken to try one, but it never hurts to look at new data.
Don Wentz, RV-6 20369, completed 6/94 (I waited 2 years to start building after
I bought the tail kit). 180hp, fixed wood prop, Airflow Performance FI.
PS - How did you feel about letting your wife solo in your -6? My wife has
started talking about that and it scares the heck out of me!
New guy
I am new to the RV-list. I heard about this thru Deene Ogden who is a very
active EAA'er here in Austin, Tx. Some info on my project and me:
Bob (and Diane) Seibert, 3405 Rockyhollow Trail, Georgetown, Tx. 78628
phone - 512-933-5716 (work) 512-869-0518 (home)
I am president of EAA Chapter 187 and really enjoy the people I get to meet
I am flying RV-6 s/n 20691. It first flew Oct. '92. I have approx.
400 hours on
the tach. at this time. I have the engine down for a major overhaul
this month.
(high oil consumption @ 2000 hrs. engine time)
The airplane is N691RV. It is red with a sliding canopy, cut down metal prop,
150HP, and it flys great. My wife and I built it in a 2 car garage.My wife,
Diane, soloed in it as a student pilot. We have flown it all over the country.
We flew to the Bahamas with it after Sun & Fun last year and I would recommend
the trip.
Before anyone tells me about the cutdown propellor, I am aware of the possible
problems. After running some vibration studies on the props, I can assure you
they will ALWAYS be experimental. I also continue to fly behind one of them.
They outperform C/S props.
We burn Mogas in the engine whenever possible but are careful about conditions
conducive to vaporlock. An RV WILL vaporlock on mogas if you do dumb things! I
will forward a copy of a mogas article from our Chapter newsletter in the near
future.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Andreas, sounds like you have a healthy, realistic picture of what you are
getting into. That's smart! Try to wade through the old postings to this list
and a lot of the 'newbie' type questions will be answered.
Good luck!
dw
Hello RV'ers,
first I want to thank everybody that replied to my message yesterday.
I got a lot of replies and I hope that I responded to everyone and did
not miss anyone.
I started flying in January this year and got my PPASEL ticket in May.
I have been an aviation fanatic for many years (subscribing to all kinds
of aviation mags and reading all kinds of books) but have had to wait
till now to find the time and money to afford flying. I did also fly
gliders a few years back. I did not get the certificate back then because
I got married and built a house, etc. Now the plane building bug has
really bit me. After flying various planes (Cessna 150, 172, Piper 140,
161, 180) I concluded that I would love to have my own plane rather than
renting but also would rather build one myself than buy a used one. I
realize that this is not a money saving proposition and is a real time
sink. I've talked it over with my wife and I got the green light.
How far am I along? Well, not very far. As a matter of fact I've just
ordered the video and info pack from Vans last week and it hasn't come
in yet. I'm really looking forward to the info though.
Why am I interested in the RV? For several reasons. It's a popular design
and has lots of good support. I think it will fill my needs (waiting for
the info) as a good cross country plane with reasonable luggage space for
two (RV-6 or RV-6A). It's a plane with very good flying characteristics,
i.e. fast, yet slow in the pattern. It's a metal plane. I rather not mess
around with composites here in New England. It gets cold in the winter
time and I don't like the idea of having to work with a material that is
temperature and/or humidity sensitive. I also plan on doing a lot of the
building during the winter months because summers tend to be pretty busy
for me due to my other hobbies. Yes, they may suffer, but I do want the
buiding experience to be a pleasurable one and I think that a project of
that magnitude has greater chances of succesfully being completed if you
can take your mind of it from time to time. I'm speaking from experience
here because I also built my own house and what really helped me get
through the tougher times were my other hobbies/activities.
I've already used up more of your time than I intended, time that could
have been used building :-) and I will not ask any questions this time.
I will wait till the info pack comes in and then fire away. In the mean
time go to your planes and build away.
Andreas Meyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing an RV-6 |
>Don Wentz recently reported you can't stall an RV-6 on landing because you
>can't get a high enough angle of attack. I think he meant you can't routinely
>do a power off, full stall, three point landing where you touch the tail wheel
>first and then drop the mains on (like I do EVERY time in my 7ECA. Well almost
>everytime. How about usually. Okay, sometimes. Once in a blue moon?).
Actually, you CAN routinely stall it and touch the tail wheel then drop on the
mains. That's the problem! IF you get enough angle to touch tail first you get
a fairly embarassing bounce when the mains hit! Unlike the very forgiving gear
on the Champ, the RV has a bit of a springy rebound in the mains and won't
'absorb' that kind of landing.
>I assume an RV-6 can be stalled at any altitude.
Of course.
>Can you touch the tail wheel of an RV-6 first if you keep the power in?
Why would you want to?
Maybe I worded it wrong - If you want smmooooth landings, don't try to stall an
RV right before or at touchdown.
You other RV-4/6 pilots, am I interpreting this correctly, based on your own
experience?
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New subscriber |
Hi Don,
I flew my RV-6 (180hp fixed wood cruise prop) to Oshkosh this year. I am >200
lbs, co pilot was about 150, at least 50lbs of baggage. We had one fuel stop in
Torrington Wyoming where we filled the tanks. When we took off the temp was
about 94 and the field altitude was about 6200 feet! I'd say our ground roll
was about 2000', although I definitely didn't lift-off until we had plenty of
airspeed. We had about 300' altitude when we crossed the end of the 4500'
runway.
Hope that gives you an idea of the RV-6 load capability.
Not knocking the Glasair, but I think you will find the -6a to be more
versatile, shorter fields, etc. And in 500 miles the small loss in airspeed
will mean almost nothing. (At least you aren't looking at Lancairs :-).
Welcome to the list.
Don Wentz
Hi,
My name is Don Karl. I'm a new subscriber to the rv-list.
I'm not building any plane yet, but considering getting started
on a Glasair SuperII-S fixed tricycle or an RV6A soon.
I'm leaning toward the Glasair because of the higher useful load
and I'd prefer to work with fiberglass, but I'm not positive yet,
the Glasair is so expensive.
I'm hoping that following this mail list will give me more insight
into RV's.
I've been interested in building a plane for a couple years and
I went to Oshkosh '93 and I left with the idea of building an RV6A.
I even bought plans.
I have primarily one question at this time: Could some of you with
RV6's and RV6A's, share your experience with me concerning
your heavier flights?
I ask this as I'm about 210lbs, my primary destination is 500 miles
as the crow flies, and I'd like to carry baggage and various
passengers. Flights would be up and down the east coast; low
altitude runways, but over 90 degrees F in summer. As you can
see, I may have to opt for light passengers or refueling. I could
just lose weight??? Nahhh.
Please feel free to respond directly with E-mail should you
prefer.
Thanks,
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: New guy (fwd) |
OK Bob, here is your chance to tell us how to park your RV in a
hangar without opening the door!
>
> PS - How did you feel about letting your wife solo in your -6? My wife has
> started talking about that and it scares the heck out of me!
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | RV WWW Page Updated |
I think my first message bounced. Please forgive me if you received this
already...
Hi All,
The RV dedicated World Wide Web page has been updated with Frank Justice's
manual addition. The conversion was completed last night from DOS to Mac
to HTML format. I haven't had time to proofread, so there still may be a
few areas needing polish from the conversion. Please mail me if you see
anything needing changed. Your browser may see things differently than
the Mac versions (Netscape and Mosaic) I used to view them.
As there are a lot of new people who have joined recently, the address to
this World Wide Web home page is...
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
I would also like to extend an offer to everyone on the RV-Mailing list...
If you would like to have a picture of your project, plane or yourself on
this web page, please mail your photo to me at...
John Hovan
1205 Felsmere Drive
Pflugerville, TX 78660
Remember, over 25 million people all over the world would be able to see
your photo.
I plan on publishing a section called "Meet RV Builders" where I can place
your picture and/or your project in the background. This way, we can put a
face to all those disparaging remarks. Seriously, if you live in Austin,
give me a call and I can make arrangements to film your project/plane and
yourself to include it on the Web page. (512) 251-9009 The answering
machine will say Rosetta Stone, but that's me.
I would like to thank Frank Justice for sending his manual so quickly! It
is my judgment that his efforts will save me and others quite a bit of time
and money! I found myself reading them rather than finishing the work
converting them to html. Thanks again Frank!
enjoy,
John Hovan
Austin, TX
Items to ponder:
Do you think someday we will have an internet connection in our workshops
and be building from plans that Van updated minutes earlier?
Did you notice that Van doesn't really have a company logo?
ps. Many people have commented on the response time of this server. We
have a Macintosh trying to do the work of a Cray, so be patient. The Apple
Corporate home pages lead to our individual pages via Smorgasbord and our
volume is up 500% since opening the server. You can reach the Apple server
at...www(at)spock.austin.apple.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing an RV-6 |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> Maybe I worded it wrong - If you want smmooooth landings, don't try to stall
an
> RV right before or at touchdown.
>
> You other RV-4/6 pilots, am I interpreting this correctly, based on your own
> experience?
> dw
Well I think so. There are stalls and then there are STALLS! Just ease
into the stall. You don't want the nose to drop hard onto the runway
because as you mentioned, it causes bounces. (In other taildraggers
too!) What you really want is for the mains to touch right before
the nose WOULD fall through if you were any higher. This is still
called a full stall landing even though it's not a nose through the
horizon "full stall" which aren't very useful for landing. You don't
have to bury the wing on the backside of the coefficient of lift vs.
AOI curve.
If the nose tends to drop hard from a high pitch attitude it could be
due to accelerating into the stall too quickly which also increases
stall speed, or it could be that the nose is quite high because the
engine isn't really at idle. Flaps help because the wing will
stall with the pitch attitude at a lower pitch than with no flaps.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Overhead rudder pedal positioning question |
RV6 builders,
Has anyone with a finished fuselage got an opinion on the
positioning of the RV6 _overhead_ rudder pedals?? The plans give a 4
inch dimension, but also say "adjust to suit". I would like to get the
pedal mounts drilled in the fuselage before the fwd. side skins go on, and
wonder if anyone has deviated from this dimension, and why?? Or should I
not worry, and fix dimensions later with cushions??
For reference, I am 5 ft 11 in with normal arm/leg lengths (nothing
in my size is ever on sale!!).
thanks for the help ... Gil Alexander RV6A #20701
P.S. just got Van's NACA vent kit (SV-COMBO) ... the swivel vent adapter
and formed vent are now injection molded out of some sort of translucent
plastic.
They are very smooth and well formed, and seem to be a _major_
improvement over the older fibreglas parts (the weakest part of the RV
kits). They even have a raised retaining ring molded on to help hold the
SCAT/CAT tubing in place. Don't know how well they'll take paint though.
Van now recommends ProSeal (or RTV) for attachment over rivets
(most of the local -6s I've seen have used rivets).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | When to remove fuse from jig? (-6As only) |
RV-6A builders only (tri-gear only)
I can't put the wings on the fuselage to drill for the main gear
attach weldments while my fuselage is in the jig. The jig is only 2 ft.
from a garage wall.
So my question is ... what is the correct time in the construction
sequence to fit these weldments, and how??
To fit these weldments, the fwd. side skins, the two skins under
the seats, and the floorboard skins all need to be not yet riveted. They
need to be either clecoed in place or not even attached for drilling
access.
One option given was to move the jig out into the driveway. This
is no problem physically (or weather-wise in LA), but I am worried that the
aft fuselage could get permanently "torqued" in the lifting process.
Another option is to remove it from the jig at this stage (ahead of
the instruction manual) and just level the fuselage on saw horses. The
remaining five skins [3 fwd. bottom and 2 fwd. sides] could then be riveted
out of the jig. But could this cause misalignment at the forward fuselage
area with no jig to hold things in place??
Last option (that I can think of) is like the previous one, but to
re-install the fuselage frame in the jig for the riveting of the five
skins. But can this be done with any accuracy??
How did you do it, and any comments or thoughts??
thanks for the help ...... Gil Alexander
Frank J.
the answers may be interesting for your fuselage instructions.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Overhead rudder pedal positioning question |
>RV6 builders,
>Has anyone with a finished fuselage got an opinion on the
>positioning of the RV6 _overhead_ rudder pedals?? The plans give a 4
>inch dimension, but also say "adjust to suit". I would like to get the
>pedal mounts drilled in the fuselage before the fwd. side skins go on, and
>wonder if anyone has deviated from this dimension, and why?? Or should I
>not worry, and fix dimensions later with cushions??
Gil, I installed the rudder pedals basically where the plans said, then
installed my seat-back locations so that the middle adjustment (with
simulated cushions) fit ME. Good idea to wait on the side skins.
>Van now recommends ProSeal (or RTV) for attachment over rivets
>(most of the local -6s I've seen have used rivets).
I have the older parts that are a little rough, but they work OK. I used
proseal to install them and they seem to be holding well.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Higher cruise speed |
For those of you who have flying RV's out there, has anyone tried
setting up their flaps so that they can be adjusted past the "0 degree"
position? This is common practice on high performance sailplanes to reduce
drag and increase speed.
Thanks,
Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
New guy I am new to the RV-list. I heard
about this thru Deene Ogden who is a very
active EAA'er here in Austin, Tx. Some info
on my project and me:
Bob (and Diane) Seibert, 3405 Rockyhollow
Trail, Georgetown, Tx. 78628 phone -
512-933-5716 (work) 512-869-0518 (home)
I am president of EAA Chapter 187 and
really enjoy the people I get to meet
I am flying RV-6 s/n 20691. It first flew
Oct. '92. I have approx. 400 hours on the
tach. at this time. I have the engine down
for a major overhaul this month. (high oil
consumption @ 2000 hrs. engine time)
The airplane is N691RV. It is red with a
sliding canopy, cut down metal prop,
150HP, and it flys great. My wife and I
built it in a 2 car garage.My wife, Diane,
soloed in it as a student pilot. We have
flown it all over the country. We flew to
the Bahamas with it after Sun & Fun last
year and I would recommend the trip.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi Bob,
Welcome to the group. I believe I met you
and your wife at sun & fun. You were
putting large tape on N #'s on your RV6 in
preparation for the trip. I asked about the
sliding canopy install. Was that you?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Before anyone tells me about the cutdown
propeller, I am aware of the possible
problems. After running some vibration
studies on the props, I can assure you
they will ALWAYS be experimental. I also
continue to fly behind one of them. They
outperform C/S props.
We burn Mogas in the engine whenever
possible but are careful about conditions
conducive to vaporlock. An RV WILL
vaporlock on mogas if you do dumb things! I
will forward a copy of a mogas article
from our Chapter newsletter in the near
future.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This brings up a question I have been
dwelling on while building my wings. What
is the group experience with putting the
150 hp 87 octane engine in the RV6 versus
the specified 160. How much is lost in
climb performance. Is it possible to use 91
octane premium in a 160 hp version of the
0-320. I use to sneak it in my 65 Cherokee
180 now and then and it seemed to actually
run better than the high lead 100LL.
I know about all about the practicality of
getting mogas on crosscountry and such but
might there be some setup where one could
save a little money when just doing
circuits around the pea patch to stay up on
those 3 point landings.
I weigh 195 and my wife 120. I am trying to
keep my -6 as light as possible within
reason. I need primer for protection here
in Florida. Any ideas on what the climb
reduction is with the 150 Hp. Lets have
some discussion on the pro's and cons.
Jim S.
RV6 23082 Leading edge pulled off Left wing
for riveting last night.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Hathcock <scotth(at)icbdfcs5.fc.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Spins and things |
I was reading a CAFE report on the RV6A and it claimed that
Van's advised against spins in the RV6A. I don't see anything in the
info packet about this and was wondering if it is true. If so does it apply
to the RV6 and RV4 as well.
Another question I have is whether the wood props are certified.
My understanding is that using a type certified engine/prop drops the test
flight time to 25 hours. Does using a wood prop push it back up to 40 hours?
Scott Hathcock
Hoping to start an RV4/6 in the next 6 months.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Hathcock <scotth(at)icbdfcs5.fc.hp.com> |
I read in a CAFE report on the RV6A that Van's advises against spins.
Is this true? Is it true for just the RV6A or is the RV6 and RV4 included?
I was also wondering about wooden props? Are the ones recomended
for the RVs Type certified. Does using a wooden prop increase the test
flight time on the aircraft?
Scott Hathcock
Hoping to start an RV4/6 in the near future.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Higher cruise speed |
This is something I would like to try, but typically only a few mph are
gained and it involves a somewhat irreversible cosmetic mod to the flaps.
They have a skin that 'underlaps' the fuselage. That portion would need to
be cut off. I do think it would be fairly easy to do with the electric
flap setup, using limit switches. Maybe someday I'll try it...
dw
For those of you who have flying RV's out there, has anyone tried
setting up their flaps so that they can be adjusted past the "0 degree"
position? This is common practice on high performance sailplanes to reduce
drag and increase speed.
Thanks,
Ted
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob_Seibert-R18643(at)email.sps.mot.com |
Prop Article
I thought I would share an article I wrote for our chapter newsletter. In order
to keep it in the right perspective, please remember 2 things: 1) My RV6 says
EXPERIMENTAL on it. 2.) Advice is like mushrooms. The wrong kind can kill you.
Article follows--
"Outlaw" Props by Bob Seibert
The cut down metal propeller controversy flared anew this fall when the RV newsletter
published an article condemning them for failures. That same issue contained
an article listing 2 WOODEN prop failures also. Since I already had a metal
prop and can't afford to feed a surplus B-52 engine, I investigated the problem.
This investigation wasn't a one man effort though. I want to thank John Glader
and Evan Roberts for their help in the vibration analysis. I would also like to
thank Herman Dierks, Jim Stugart and Kent Williams for the information they
shared. We spent about $300 on vibration studies and I feel it was an excellent
investment.
All of the metal propellers I have information on are Sensenich 76EM and 74DM.
(Although the numbers look similar, the 2 props are totally different designs.)
These 2 types of metal prop are very popular on RV's, T-18's, Mustangs, etc.
This discussion deals only with those 2 types.
I am personally aware of 3 metal prop failures on RV's here in Texas. All 3 failures
were on cutdown 74DM's. 2 of the 3 failed props had known historys of damage
and restraightening. The 3rd prop had an unknown history. All 3 were between
68 and 70" dia, narrowed chord and repitched. None of them gave any warning.
Luckily, nobody was hurt in any of the incidents.
In an effort to determine just how scared we should be about these props, we sent
3 of them out to Specialized Testing Service in Arleta California. The data
follows: 76EM cut to 70" and chord narrowed to 2.375 at the tip has critial RPM's
at 2608 and 2646 for no continuous operation from 2560 to 2695 RPM. A 74DM
cut to 69" and chord narrowed to 2.375 at the tip has critical RPM's at 2645
and 2633 for no continuous operation from 2580 to 2633 RPM. And finally a 76EM
cut to 70" and full width blades (paddle blades) has critical RPM's at 2630
and 2732. No continuous operation between 2580 and 2780 RPM.
There are several other critical RPM's for these props but they are well above
any sane RPM to turn a Lycoming.
It is important to understand that ALL metal propellers have a spectrum of critical
RPM's. The stock 76EM, for instance, has 3 points within the RPM range of
Lycoming engines. They are at approx 2150, 2180 and a minor one at 2550 RPM.
Cutting the diameter of a 76EM (or 74DM) shifts the critical frequencys upward
and you can see that the 2 bad ones land in the 2600 RPM range.
What to do? If you are going to run a cutdown metal prop, get it tested or try
to match it to the data we have so far. Stay out of the critical frequencys for
continuous operation. Get an accurate tachometer. John found out his was 125
RPM off. Mine was 200 RPM off! (Hopefully Diane will appreciate a new Tach for
christmas.) I plan on tweaking the pitch on my prop to cruise below 2550 RPM
and run wide open above 2700 RPM. An interesting result of having narrow blade
tips on my prop is that I can turn lots of RPM's even above 10,000 feet.
If you want to test a metal prop, the recognized authority on it is Sandy Friezner
who owns Specialized Testing Service. He tested our props for $50 each ( the
shipping costs about $50 also) which is a real bargain. He can be reached at
(818) 899-9201. If you do get some tests run, please copy me as I am trying
to build a base of data on these props.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob_Seibert-R18643(at)email.sps.mot.com |
| Subject: | TYPO ON PROP ARTICLE |
TYPO ON PROP ARTICLE
Please note that my Outlaw prop article contains a typo. The upper limit for
continuous RPM on the Sensenich 74DM should read 2695 RPM NOT 2633 RPM. This
allows a 50 RPM guardband on each side of the critical RPM's. Sorry about the
error.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and props |
>I read in a CAFE report on the RV6A that Van's advises against spins.
>Is this true? Is it true for just the RV6A or is the RV6 and RV4 included?
No spins in the -6/-6A.
>I was also wondering about wooden props? Are the ones recomended
>for the RVs Type certified.
No
>Does using a wooden prop increase the test flight time on the aircraft?
Usually yes.
dw
Scott Hathcock
Hoping to start an RV4/6 in the near future.
________________________________________________________________________________
Don't you ever work, Don? You're the only guy who responds to 75% of the
babble here. :-)
I would like to say a couple things here.......reflexing flaps won't do
anything for the speed of a wing if it's not "laminar flow" (this according
to my recollection of a conversation with The Guru).
In order to determine if you are capable of doing a "full stall" landing you
should get to within 12" of the ground at your appproach speed and hold it
there, pull the throttle back to idle, and keep applying back pressure on the
stick (maintaining 12" altitude) 'til your RV stops flying. I will bet a sum
of $US that you will hit the tail wheel before this happens.
Question: Do any of the other RVers on this list get messages from the MAILER
DAEMON saying they are unknown or illegal users? I've gotten 3 or 4 notices
of "undeliverable" or "unknown user" in the last week or so.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: For sale: Lyc starter and alternater |
The Starter was SOLD to someone on the net the day after I posted it!
It is going on Chris's Cherokee 180.
The Alternator IS STILL AVAILABLE. Thanks, Herman
> Herman ... is the starter still available??? Gil Alexander
>
> PS it would be for a O-320-E2G
>
> >
> > For Sale:
> > Following Starter and Alternator fit all Lyc 360 models and probably
> > most 320's. They were removed from a IO-360-B4A that was a factory
> > new engine. The engine was in a Super Acrosport I that I owned and
> > they were removed to save weight. I installed a light wt starer and no
> > alternator. I am posting on the RV net as the Starter could be used
> > on a RV if you want a stock starter and some extra wt. up front.
> > The Alternator is not usable on a RV as it is too large for the cowl.
> > I am posting here as I know some of you have other factory aircraft
> > or may know of someone that could use these. Note the low total time
> > sense new.
> >
> > Starter, Prestolite MZ-4222 12Volt, 12/14 pitch for 149 tooth ring gear.
> > Complete with gear drive. 150 Hr TTSNew!! $225.00 255-0265.
> > (A new armature for these is $300.00 alone)
> >
> > Alternator Prestolite ALY 8420 12V 60 Amp. 100 Hr TTSNew. Complete with
> > pully and mount brackets and belt. $200.00 OBO 255-0265. Herman Dierks
> >
> > Thanks, Herman (home number is 512-255-0265)
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> >AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> >phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> >ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> >mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Mail Bounce Policy - PLEASE READ! |
With 160+ subscribers to the RV-LIST, its a big job to keep everyone's email
address up-to-date. As some of you might have noticed, you only receive these
messages when you *post* something. I don't generally post that often and so
I don't always know that mail is bouncing for a while so that I can fix it.
*************************************************
**** Here Is The New RV-LIST Message Policy ****
*************************************************
1) rv-list-bounces(at)matronics.com
Send a copy of all message bounces that you get when you
post a message to the List to the above address only.
This will flag me to take care of it *right away*.
2) Any subscriber's email address that cause *any email problems*
will be removed from the List temporarily, and will be added
back to the List *when requested by the subscriber*. The fact
that the subscriber has been removed should become obvious when
they stop receiving posting from the List.
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
Matt Dralle
RV-LIST Manager
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: Spins and things |
> Another question I have is whether the wood props are certified.
>My understanding is that using a type certified engine/prop drops the test
>flight time to 25 hours. Does using a wood prop push it back up to 40 hours?
>
None of the props used on RV's except the constant-speed variety - even the
Sensenich metal prop sold by VAN's is "experimental".
RB
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
Federal Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
Navy and Civilian Programs FAX: (301) 564-4408
FORE Systems
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-List Test... Is This Thing On??? |
RV-LIST Test Message...
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Back On Line!! |
some "improvments" to the alias file and caused a mail loop. I didn't noticed
until today when I started getting a number of message from subscribers saying
that they hadn't received any RV mail in quite a while. Sorry for the
problems....
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-List Test... Is This Thing On??? |
I asked Randall the same thing.
Guess everyone is recovering from the holidays.
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
>
>RV-LIST Test Message...
>
>Matt Dralle
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Drilling H.S. skins |
I just wanted to drop a note here on rv-list (now that it's back
up -- thanks Matt, I didn't know I had gotten so addicted to my
daily fix of rv-list!)
I just finished drilling the skins for the Horizontal stab and
clecoing them down. It went so well I just had to tell someone.
I chose to use the method shown in the Orndorff video: trace the
outline of the ribs and spares onto the backside of the skins.
Then backrill the skins with a #41 drill.. At the same time,
I drew a line down all the rib and spar flanges marking the
center of the flanges.
It was a piece of cake. It's nice to have something go right
the first time for a change!
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Update on the Major Screw Up |
As many of you read on rv-list I screwed up big time by putting the top
skins on the botton and the bottom skins on the top of the right wing. Both
were nicely riveted in place when this mistake was discovered.
Thanks to many of you for suggestions.
Here is how we resolved the situation.
1. We reminded ourselves to slow down a bit and re-read the plans so such
mistakes don't happen again.
2. Decided we would be able to live with ourselves if we replaced the skin
vs tacking on a piece to extend it the 1/4 inch needed to fill in the
aileron gap.
3. Drilled the rivets out of the old skin, all 340 or so of them. Used a
new #40 drill bit. Had done some prior drilling out of rivets on other
parts of the wing, but not a great deal of experience. Results were that I
was able to drill out every hole with ve\irtually no damage to holes on ribs
or spars. You just get into the swing of it and it goes fast. Had
purchased a quantity of Opps rivets in case I had a problem. Never used them!
4. Used the old skin laid over top of the new W-603 skin laid over a piece
of plywood as a template. Had experimented with this before hand. seemed
to work well. Drilled the holes that join the two wing skins together
after we put the skin on the wing to see how things were lining up.
Deburred, painted, dimpled and riveted skin in place.
5. End result is that we think it looks better than the old one. We had
just a few holes that need to be filed a little bit to get the rivet to set
in vertically.
The process seemed very scary at first, but it really wasn't. I would not
hestitate to pull off skins again if I was unhappy. But, I think the most
important thing to remember here is step #1 --- Re-Read the Plans a lot when
doing the Right wing. Also for people who have not done their wing skins
yet they should label the skins Top and Bottom at inventory time or when
they are sorting skins for the left wing.
Moving on now to finishing wingtips and the building of fuselage jig.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
I thought everyone was just ignoring me
glad to here we are back on the air.
I need to get a flaring tool for working on
the tanks, pitot tube etc.
I noticed that Avery sells two for about
the same price one is a Parker brand and
the other is Imperial/Eastman. The Imperial
looks like it is smaller and might be
better for field repair jobs but it doesn't
do 1/8 primer line.
Does any one have any experience with
either of these? As usual one tool doennt
seem adequate. I am leaning towards the
Parker model but if I can't repair a line
with it in a tight place that means one has
to buy two of these things.
Or I could get the other and borrow one for
the primer line.
Any thoughts.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
Happy New year,
I just finnished both leading edges on my
RV6 wings. Started chopping a hole in the
right wing for landing lights then and then
on to the Tanks.
In preparation for the tanks I am looking
for any advice from those who go before me.
Van says to use Naptha or Coleman fluid.
Frank talks about MEK. Any pro's or cons?
Clean, clean, clean I guess is the main
idea here.
Is every body happy with Vans sending
units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
What was the best combination for the
access cover? some special cork and sealer.
I don't want to proseal these.
Any thoughts on the finger strainer. I
don't see the advantage since it seems to
me if your tank has gotten contaminated
with dirt or loose slosh won't you want to
open up the access cover and inspect the
problem at its source. I'm I missing
something here. Have never had problem on
factory planes so I don't know what's
possible I guess. Ignorance is bliss.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
I just completed the H.S. I dimpled the skins and ribs/spars. The
dimpling process is not quite uniform. I took a countersink bit and
adjusted it to the correct depth of the flush rivet and lightly (repeat:
lightly) shaved the dimpled skin before inserting the rivet. This process
delivers a very smooth finish and a pleasing appearance to the finisted
work.
Looking forward the the V.S,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Lock systems for Canopy? |
RV folks,
Is anyone coming up with any ways to avoid building the canopy locking sytem
that Van designed. We have decided that it is a ridiculus system and looks
bad on top of it, Have been designing a lock system that will mount near
the canopy latch that will be keyed with a flush key lock mounted through
the side wall in the same area.
Not having access to a finished RV would like to know what kinf of forces
are needed to get the canopy latch to hook. Can anyone advise me?
Obviously this information is critical to the leverages designed into any
release/lock system.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Fuselage floor rivet problem |
RV folks,
In all of the talk about the rivets that have been come loose on the
underside of the fuselage at F-604 bulkhead I don't recall if this was
happening on the 6A's as well as the 6's. Seems to me there would be less
stress there on a tricycle geared plane.
Also, on the planes this is happening on were the rivet holes countersunk
or dimpled?
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Paints for the RV |
RV folks
\My partner and I have been long debating this issue of which paint to
apply. I have back yard experience painting cars with lacquer and acrilyic
enamels. Having spoken to several chemist types in the coatings industry
they tell me that the molecule structure of coatings such as Imron allow the
material to flex much more through temperature changes. Such coating also
tend to seal tight preventing moisture to pass through.
Had a chance this summer to shoot some acrylic urethane on my volvo, just as
an experiment. Rather costly experiment, about 80 bucks for the base coat,
solvents, and clear coat. But, the stuff was quite easy to work with and
the clear coat sure made that fender look great. I didn't feel it was any
worse than working with enamels.
Urethanes flow for several days followign application and hence provide an
even nicer transition between color coats.
I know there is a lot of concern about the nasty side of shooting solvent
based paints, but I have to think I am only going to do this once on this
plane and I want a finish that is gooing to be tough and protect our plane
from our marine air here near Seattle.
What thoughts do you all have on this issue.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: Cutting Alclad
A few weeks ago there was a discussion on cutting Alclad without getting
distortion on the edges. In the past I have cut sheets with hand shears,
starting about 3/8" from the line and sneeking up (narrow strips) on the
last part followed by alot of careful file work. This works well but is
time consuming.
After deciding to install single piece top skins I ordered .032 Alclad
from...well I forget the name of the company...you know, the add has the lady
standing in a roll of Alclad. Anyway...they ship the stuff in the full 48"
width any length you want. I ordered two 9' sections and planed on having
them sheared locally. After the local sheetmetal shops did a lot of grumbling
and made alot of excuses about the tolerances and my desire to not have the
material scratched I decided to make the cuts myself. I was not looking
forward to making 18' of cut on $170.00 + of material with the handshear
method.
After pondering several alternate methods I had and idea...how about a
router ( no not the kind that Cisco makes ) a wood router. I grabbed a scrap
of Alclad and clamped a straight edge to it, installed 1/8" HSS router bit
and... WOW!!! The router cuts through .032 like butter and makes an edge that
needs only light (very light) fileing to clean up. This works so good, and is
so easy I don't know why it isn't common practice. I found that the best
edge is produced if you keep the router moving quickly (your mileage my
differ). Try this...you'll love the results! I think that this method could
be used to cut the hinge notches in the controll surfaces if a larger bit were
used. I havn't calculated the surface speed of the bit yet but I would guess
that a 1/4" bit will start pushing the envelope. Perhaps a carbide bit will
be needed. Also the .016 material may need to be clamped better.
I mentioned the method to my father (retired aircraft engineer) over the
holidays and he tells me that the window holes in the L-1011 were cut with a
router in 3/8" skins! If it's good enough for Lockheed it's good enough for
me.
_________________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) I,m gonna' be an RV Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) when I grow down! cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!__________________________________________________|
P.S. The lady in the roll of Alclad will be raising her prices soon.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | outlaw(at)startribune.com (Will Outlaw) |
Hello, I'm a new subscriber to this list and figured I'd introduce myself.
I'm a PPSEL with way too few hours to be considering something as silly as
building an RV, but considering it I am.
I haven't taken the pluge yet and am sort of lurking around here and
rec.aviation.homebuilt trying to gather as much info as I can about building
an RV before I make the commitment and so I have some intelligent questions
to ask at Oshkosh this summer.
I'm looking forward to reading about how all your projects are coming along.
Take care,
Will
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking only for myself, of course.
"Every man needs a motto. That's mine.''
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: Cutting Alclad (followup)
The name of the company that sells rolled Alclad is Airparts. Check
any Sport Aviation issue for the last 20 years for their address/phone
Prices will go up starting 2-1-95. (.032 2024T3 will be $9.85/running
foot current price is $8,75/foot)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flaring tools |
>
> I noticed that Avery sells two for about
> the same price one is a Parker brand and
> the other is Imperial/Eastman. The Imperial
> looks like it is smaller and might be
> better for field repair jobs but it doesn't
> do 1/8 primer line.
>
It seems to me when I called Avery (I think his name is Jim) suggested
one or the other as being better. I don,t remember wich. It seems like
it was the cheeper of the two. It is a large unit and seems to be well
made. I don't think it will fit into tight spaces. I haven't used it
yet but I will in the week or two. I,ll check when I get home as to wich
it is.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
**** JIM-SCHMIDT wrote ****
>
>In preparation for the tanks I am looking
>for any advice from those who go before me.
>
>Van says to use Naptha or Coleman fluid.
>Frank talks about MEK. Any pro's or cons?
>
>Clean, clean, clean I guess is the main
>idea here.
>
I used MEK and found it very satisfactory.
The thing I didn't do as well as possible
was the abrasion of the surface before the
Proseal is applied. I used the 3M 7440
Scotchbrite (brown), but I have since seen
a stainless steel wire brush recommended,
and just bought one at my last trip to
Harbor Freight. I guess good, deep
scratches filled with Proseal will give
a good surface for more mechanical grip.
After a certain cleanliness level has been
reached, I would think that the surface
"tooth" will have more effect. It does
seem to be in conflict with all the scratch
avoidance we do the rest ot the time
though!!
Also, a recommendation from the Bakersfield
Bunch ....
If you are building an RV6A, then
use a 7 or 8 inch dimension from the aft
tank edge to the filler hole instead of
11 inches given in the plans. This will
help with filling with the less "tail-down"
stance of the tri-gear model.
keep at it ....
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
deburring and dimpling fuselage skins
(but still got 1 tank to Proseal!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
>Van says to use Naptha or Coleman fluid.
>Frank talks about MEK. Any pro's or cons?
You never know for sure what might be on your particular piece of aluminum and
how clean your solvent is, so it makes me nervous to recommend just one cleaner.
You could have petroleum-based oils, parafin-based protective compounds,
inorganic salts and oils from fingerprints, aluminum oxide, anything that could
be found in a metal foundry or sheet metal shop.
The Pro-Seal must stick firmly to every square micron of area that is exposed to
gasoline or the tank will leak eventually. Pro-Seal will not stick through any
kind of contamination at all, unlike paints and resins which contain solvents.
I said to use MEK because it wil cut just about any organic compounds except
cured resins, but then I heard from at least two people that they had gotten
some that left a film. Acetone is much more likely to be contaminated. I suspect
that there could be heavy fractions in naptha from some sources. The Coleman
fuel might very well be the least likely organic solvent to contain things that
would leave a film, considering what it is designed for.
In any event, use one of the above but make sure the surface is shiny with no
trace of streaks or cloudiness when you get through. Then use Alumiprep or
Metalprep to get rid of the inorganic stuff, roughen the surface, and likely get
rid of any organics that remain. The -preps will cut most oils, but I feel the
tanks deserve the extra effort of the two-step process.
Then Alodyne the components to prevent long-term internal corrosion problems.
>Clean, clean, clean I guess is the main
>idea here.
Right.
>What was the best combination for the
>access cover? some special cork and sealer.
>I don't want to proseal these.
I have had several people tell me they just used the cork gasket without a
sealer. I would recommend that you use Fuel-Lube or Proseal under the screw
heads, and you can run a bead of Proseal around the outside edges of the gaskets
rather than under the whole thing.
>Any thoughts on the finger strainer. I
>don't see the advantage since it seems to
>me if your tank has gotten contaminated
>with dirt or loose slosh won't you want to
>open up the access cover and inspect the
>problem at its source. I'm I missing
>something here. Have never had problem on
>factory planes so I don't know what's
>possible I guess. Ignorance is bliss.
One builder on the net swore that the next time he would not even make the
access plate; he would just mount the fuel sender right on the rib, then use the
finger strainer for the pickup. In this concept the above makes sense, although
you wind up not being able to stick your hand inside the tank anymore.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Wing Tanks
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 08:32:45 -0600
From: mail.mei.com!JIM-SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks (fwd) |
My comments:
Regarding cleaning, use MEK first and then use the acid etch (brightner) that
you would use to Alodine. It cleans the metal. I don't recall if I alodined
the parts also. I don't think I did. The alodine could protect the AL from
corrosion from water sitting in the bottom of the tank.
Try to keep the parts clean and use MEK again before you put on the proseal to
get any finger marks off.
On the gasket, I used Neoprene. I bought a sheet of it at Capital Bearing
here, probably any bearing or hose shop will carry it. About 1/16 inch thick.
It as other uses as well. I don't like the cork as it has problems with age.
On the finger strainer, I think you want one. You don't want some glob of
proseal or junk plugging the end or getting sucked into your boost pump.
The old plans just mashed the end of the tube closed and saw cut some notches
it it. I think Van now sells the finger screens which is what I would use.
I think they are already soldered on to the AL tube.
Also, I did not slosh my complete inside of the tank. I don't beleive in that.
Why coat good solid aluminum? What I did was reach in a paint all the seams
with multiple coats with a small brush. Let it cure a few days and redo it
several times. You can slosh some areas you can not reach with a brush if
needed by pooring in a little slosh and only doing the needed area.
Also, don't slosh it until the proseal has cured for several weeks. I was told
it emits a gas as it cures and it takes some time for it to cure completly.
Herman
> From root Thu Jan 5 13:01:46 1995
> From: mail.mei.com!JIM-SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com
> Message-Id:
> X-Mailer: WordPerfect Office 4.0
> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 08:32:45 -0600
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Wing Tanks
>
> Happy New year,
>
> I just finnished both leading edges on my
> RV6 wings. Started chopping a hole in the
> right wing for landing lights then and then
> on to the Tanks.
>
> In preparation for the tanks I am looking
> for any advice from those who go before me.
>
> Van says to use Naptha or Coleman fluid.
> Frank talks about MEK. Any pro's or cons?
>
> Clean, clean, clean I guess is the main
> idea here.
>
> Is every body happy with Vans sending
> units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
> good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
>
> What was the best combination for the
> access cover? some special cork and sealer.
> I don't want to proseal these.
>
> Any thoughts on the finger strainer. I
> don't see the advantage since it seems to
> me if your tank has gotten contaminated
> with dirt or loose slosh won't you want to
> open up the access cover and inspect the
> problem at its source. I'm I missing
> something here. Have never had problem on
> factory planes so I don't know what's
> possible I guess. Ignorance is bliss.
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
>Happy New year,
>I just finnished both leading edges on my
>RV6 wings. Started chopping a hole in the
>right wing for landing lights then and then
>on to the Tanks.
>In preparation for the tanks I am looking
>for any advice from those who go before
>me.
>Van says to use Naptha or Coleman fluid.
>Frank talks about MEK. Any pro's or
>cons?
MEK worked fine for me, just use a mask and GOOD ventilation.
>Clean, clean, clean I guess is the main
>idea here.
YES
>Is every body happy with Vans sending
>units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
>good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
I think "is ANYBODY happy with them" may be more accurate. I thought
they were horrible at first, but after 130hrs I am used to the readings
I get. The left sender gets intermittant when the tank is full, so I
just run that tank first and the needle gets stable again at 3/4. Even
the intermittancy is intermittant. If cost isn't an issue, there are
better solutions available, otherwise, use the SW senders and get used
to it like most of us do. No big deal.
>What was the best combination for the
>access cover? some special cork and
>sealer. I don't want to proseal these.
I prosealed mine. I DON'T recommend that to anyone else. I dread the
day I will have to remove them (but hey, they don't leak!).
>Any thoughts on the finger strainer. I
>don't see the advantage since it seems to
>me if your tank has gotten contaminated
>with dirt or loose slosh won't you want
>to open up the access cover and inspect
>the problem at its source. I'm I missing
>something here. Have never had problem
>on factory planes so I don't know what's
>possible I guess. Ignorance is bliss.
I used the standard "slits in the tube" style strainer. I haven't had
any problems, but then, with my FI unit, I have a super in-line metallic
filter before my boost pump, and it will let me know if I have a
contamination problem (although determining WHICH tank is dirty may take
some effort). Actually, with the tank drain being where it is, if you
do your pre-flight fuel contamination checks like good little pilots,
you'll be OK no matter which way you go. The screens have one
advantage: They look a heck of a lot nicer (but when would anyone see
them?).
PS - It's my lunch time Jim :-).
Don Wentz, N790DW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lock systems for Canopy? |
Don,
considerable leverage is needed to latch the tip-up canopy. Is the part of the
design that you don't like the padlock part? If so, many of us agree, and we
installed the extra key lock that came with the mag switch just below and appx
1" to the rear of the protruding portion of the latch handle. You then make an
appx 1/8" slot thru the angle supports and the latch handle itself, so that when
the key is turned, the 'tab' ends-up in the slot, locking the handle in place.
dw
RV folks,
Is anyone coming up with any ways to avoid building the canopy locking sytem
that Van designed. We have decided that it is a ridiculus system and looks
bad on top of it, Have been designing a lock system that will mount near
the canopy latch that will be keyed with a flush key lock mounted through
the side wall in the same area.
Not having access to a finished RV would like to know what kinf of forces
are needed to get the canopy latch to hook. Can anyone advise me?
Obviously this information is critical to the leverages designed into any
release/lock system.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Paints for the RV -Reply |
I have also shot some lacquers, and enamels
on cars and model airplanes. I reworked the
wheels pants on a Cherokee 180 with an
automotive polyurethane. I found it not to
be that much harder than acrylic enamel.
After three years they looked great.
Shinned like a 7 coat lacquer job with
clear coat. Although it does look a little
like what I call a plastic model airplane
like monokote or one of the plastic
coverings.
My brother owns a body shop and I asked him
what to use. He said "airplane" paint.
Seriously what he meant was that although
he uses Sikkens on his best jobs why
experiment with your pride and joy. I think
Imron or Stits or Randolf or want ever
polyurethanes are the way to go If you want
durability.
The next problem is your health. I believe
the polys use isocyanates (sp). Which are
not real good for the lungs. I would look
into one of those breathing apparatuses
I've seen in Sport Aviation. I am
considering just doing all the prep and
priming and then taking it to a
professional to shoot the main color on.
I recently spoke with an old timer redoing
an Aeronca Champ. He had used the new
system 3 water based paint. I looked
pretty good although a little orange peely
to me. He tried HVLP and gave up on it. He
used a regular gun and got good results but
told me it took 8 coats to get it like I
saw it. He said the paint had very little
pigment. It was the classic champ yellow
with orange colors.
I say stick with polyurethanes. I have a
feeling an automotive would be okay but I
don't know if I would risk it.
My 2 cents worth.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
>
> >Is every body happy with Vans sending
> >units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
> >good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
> >
> I think "is ANYBODY happy with them" may be more accurate. I thought
> they were horrible at first, but after 130hrs I am used to the readings
> I get. The left sender gets intermittant when the tank is full, so I
> just run that tank first and the needle gets stable again at 3/4. Even
> the intermittancy is intermittant. If cost isn't an issue, there are
> better solutions available, otherwise, use the SW senders and get used
> to it like most of us do. No big deal.
>
>--------------
Well, the old-style SW sender is pretty much a piece of junk. The resistance
is done with a poorly formed wirewound resistor. There isn't much to keep the
wiper (connected to the float arm) evenly pressing against the resistor. Thus,
you end up with eratic readings like Don is seeing. They are a poor design.
The good news is that the newer SW fuel senders use a much better arangment.
It is kind of hard to discribe, but it more of a conventional potentometer and
the float arm alignment is much better.
The bad news is that when I ask for the standard Van's spec'd SW sender part
number, the units they gave be don't exactly look like the older style. It is
very possible that they will align the same, but frankly I havn't tryed to
fit them.
The other 'bad news' is that the new models are about twice as expensive. As I
recall, I paid about $15 each of the old style SWs about 4 years ago. The new
ones I just got were about $30 as I recall.
Humm, seems like there might be a market here, aye Don??? ;-)
Matt Dralle
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage floor rivet problem |
There was at least 1 -6A involved, and the ones I have seen are not dimpled.
My final recommendation (you can/should evaluate this recommendation based-on
your own skills that will be well developed by the time you get to that point in
your project) is as follows:
For NEW construction, use 1/8 rather than 3/32 rivets, and dimple them rather
than machine countersink them.
For completed a/c, there are options:
1 - drill-out and replace failing rivets with 1/8 universal head rivets.
or
2 - drill-out and replace failing rivets with 3/32 rivets, and add another
matching rivet in-between where possible, to increase the total rivet count.
or
3 - drill-out and replace failing rivets with oops (1/8 shank, 3/32 head)
rivets, and add another matching rivet in-between where possible, to increase
the total rivet count.
Note that these are ONLY my opinions. Neither these 'fixes' NOR the fact that
a
change is required are necessarily recognized by Van's. The fact that I had a
problem here is the main reason I am recommending that you evaluate the
situation and MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.
I plan to use option 3 to repair my RV-6.
dw
RV folks,
In all of the talk about the rivets that have been come loose on the
underside of the fuselage at F-604 bulkhead I don't recall if this was
happening on the 6A's as well as the 6's. Seems to me there would be less
stress there on a tricycle geared plane.
Also, on the planes this is happening on were the rivet holes countersunk
or dimpled?
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting skins |
Jerry Walker wrote:
> I just completed the H.S. I dimpled the skins and ribs/spars. The
> dimpling process is not quite uniform.
Sounds like you may be under-dimpling...? Either that or your dimple
dies aren't very good. One of the reasons I dimple everything is
because it's so much easier to do it uniformly. I periodically check
the dimples by looking at the skin at an angle where I can see
reflections -- the under-dimpled holes show up as a distorted area that
extends beyond the dimple, usually around 3/4". Hitting those again
will finish forming the dimple and remove the wider distortion.
> I took a countersink bit and
> adjusted it to the correct depth of the flush rivet and lightly (repeat:
> lightly) shaved the dimpled skin before inserting the rivet. This process
> delivers a very smooth finish and a pleasing appearance to the finisted
>
Glad you made em come out all right. I've seen others do this but never
found it necessary.
Congrats on finishing your HS!
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (that's right, no X -- today anyhow....)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Gaskets (was Re: Wing Tanks) |
> Herman Dierks wrote:
> On the gasket, I used Neoprene. I bought a sheet of it at Capital Bearing
> here, probably any bearing or hose shop will carry it. About 1/16 inch thick.
> It as other uses as well. I don't like the cork as it has problems with age.
Did you use pro-seal or fuel lube? What did you do around the screws?
I was planning on using a Buna-N rubber gasket and fuel lube, but
someone else who did this had difficulty sealing the screws. I was
thinking of doing that and then pro-sealing the screws, but was
concerned that the fuel lube would squeeze out around the screws and
mess up the proseal seal. Someone else made little rubber washers to go
under the screws, but my concern with this is that you couldn't torque
the screws enough without tearing the washers. (Earl...?)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin) |
| Subject: | Need info for Texas RVer/ Van's note |
I am looking for the telephone number of a Dwain (unknown last
name)located in Texas. He flys a RV6 from Hook Field and is an FAA
controller. A Glasair friend of mine met him and wants to contact him
again. If you know how I can reach him, please email me.
I talked with Ken at Van's about a $50. one time update for the drawings
they talked about awhile back. He stated that the drawings would now be
included in each kit ordered vs. having to send for an update at some
point in time.
I forgot to ask, but are any of the drawings done on CAD now? The set I
have is over a year old.
Thanks,
Harold
RV-6A
//only 11,800 more rivets to go//
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Paints for the RV (fwd) |
I am close to painting my RV4. I think I will use Imron.
I used it on the interior and I liked the way it applied.
Probably the next best paint is Acrylic Enamel (like Dupont Centari).
It is lower cost and you can add the gloss hardner to it as an option.
You can buff out the A. Enamel and there are many nice examples flying.
I think the Laurtsen (?sp) award winning RV4 from Iowa is Centari for example.
I also think the Lancair that was on the cover of Sport Aviation about 2 mo.
ago was done in Centari. Don't have the mag here at work to check however.
So, you can do just as well with the enamel's.
A third option is the base coat/clear coat paints. All the new cars use this
system and body shops like it as it is easy to repair as it dries fast and you
can fix an color problems and then do the clear coat over it.
To decide what is best will depend on several factors.
- How much you want to spend. Imron will be more $$.
- What type of work area (paint booth you have).
The Poly's (IMRON) dries slower so you best have the dust free/bug free
paint booth and have all the filters and fresh air for your lungs.
If you don't take the time to build a first class paint booth, I would
go with Centari or the base coat/clear coat systems due to the faster
drying time and easier fix of mistakes and not spending a fortune on
a paint job if you can not ensure it will come out perfect.
- Touchup on Poly's is more difficult.
Whatever you do, go with the recommended system (etch, alodine, primer,
thinners, etc) and don't start mixing different processes or thinners, etc.
If I can ever decide on the color and paint scheme, the rest should be easy.
Herman
> From root Thu Jan 5 18:29:56 1995
> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 07:32:01 -0800
> Message-Id: <199501051532.HAA08218(at)cheetah.it.wsu.edu>
> X-Sender: meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> From: coopext.cahe.wsu.edu!meehan(at)matronics.com (Don Meehan)
> Subject: Paints for the RV
> X-Mailer:
>
> RV folks
>
> \My partner and I have been long debating this issue of which paint to
> apply. I have back yard experience painting cars with lacquer and acrilyic
> enamels. Having spoken to several chemist types in the coatings industry
> they tell me that the molecule structure of coatings such as Imron allow the
> material to flex much more through temperature changes. Such coating also
> tend to seal tight preventing moisture to pass through.
>
> Had a chance this summer to shoot some acrylic urethane on my volvo, just as
> an experiment. Rather costly experiment, about 80 bucks for the base coat,
> solvents, and clear coat. But, the stuff was quite easy to work with and
> the clear coat sure made that fender look great. I didn't feel it was any
> worse than working with enamels.
>
> Urethanes flow for several days followign application and hence provide an
> even nicer transition between color coats.
>
> I know there is a lot of concern about the nasty side of shooting solvent
> based paints, but I have to think I am only going to do this once on this
> plane and I want a finish that is gooing to be tough and protect our plane
> from our marine air here near Seattle.
>
> What thoughts do you all have on this issue.
>
> Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
> Whidbey RV-ators
> Coupeville, WA
> (Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | RV's/FAA Safety BBS (LONG) |
Hi All,
November 14, 1994 - January 05, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ah