RV-Archive.digest.vol-ai
January 05, 1995 - February 07, 1995
I logged into the FAA Safety computer BBS a few nights ago and downloaded
all the files I could find pertaining to RV aircraft. Below is a list of
how the information is organized in this mail:
1. FAA Safety BBS
2. FAA Approved Kit List with dates for RV Approval (Good Trivia)
3. Questions and Responses from Users of the BBS pertaining to RV's
4. Submitted Accident reports by RV-6, RV-4 and RV-3.
Safe flying,
John Hovan
Austin, TX
----------------------------------------
1. FAA Safety BBS
Please pass the bulletin board number around to others.
Encourage its use to improve safety!
The FAA Safety BBS number is 1-800-426-3814
SYSOP : Ben Morrow
FAA, ACE-103
601 E. 12th. St.
Kansas City, MO. 64106
816-426-5954
INTERNET: CVKR12A(at)PRODIGY.COM
Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. If I don't
respond or answer each individually, they are being compiled for
future use.
----------------------------------------
2. FAA Approved Kit List with dates for RV Approval (Good Trivia)
________________________________________________________________________________
Model shown with date approved.
Vans Aircraft, Inc.
P.O. Box 160
North Plains, OR 97133
RV-3 02/01/84
Parts List Dated 5/90
RV-4 02/01/84
Parts List Dated 6/90
RV-6 09/14/89
Parts List Dated 6/90
RV-6A 09/14/89
Parts List Dated 8/90
----------------------------------------
3. Questions and Responses from Users of the BBS pertaining to RV's
Question
85 10-25-1994 Question - RV-4 Engine Mount Cracks?
I would like to find out specifically where the engine mount
brackets show signs of cracking. My RV-4 has approx. 475 hours on
the original light brackets. I have not seen any cracks from
visual inspection inside the cockpit, however, there is some
slight deformation at the bottom of the stainless steel firewall
material itself. Where specifically do the cracks start to show
up? Are they readily visible from inspecting the brackets from
inside the cockpit? Were the cracks preceeded by the slight
firewall bulge I described?
Response
86 11-09-1994 Response - RV-4 Weldment cracks.
The cracks are in part WD403 right and left. These are on the
inside of the fuselage and the bolts which attach the engine
mount landing gear assembly pass through the center of these
weldments. My experience has been that the cracks start at the
bolt hole and spread out. Most likely, if present, they will be
visible to the naked eye from the inside of the cockpit. You will
need a bright light and get your head down by the rudder pedals.
If you have some deformity of the firewall bottom, you might
want to take the nuts off the engine mount through bolts and
use dye penetrant. Cracking has also been found on the upper
weldments. These are most easily imspected by removing the
aluminum cover forward of the canopy.
----------------------------------------
Question
81 10-19-1994 Question - RV fuel tanks?
Does anyone build fuel tanks for the Van's RV series aircraft?
I am in the process of building an RV-4 and would appreciate any
information on fuel tanks for it.
Response
82 11-09-1994 Response - RV-4 fuel tanks.
Completed RV fuel tanks are available from Don London at
57232 Cedar Creek Rd., Scappose, Or. 503-543-3968.
----------------------------------------
4. Submitted Accident reports by RV-6, RV-4 and RV-3.
Please note that reports have NOT been confirmed or verified
by FAA. Reports are furnished solely for information. Following
suggestions by submitters should be done with CAUTION.
RV-6 Reports
------------
DATE :910330
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-6
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming E2A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : Pacesetter 200
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : Exhaust Pipe PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : #4 cyl.& "Y" PART CONDITION : Cracked
REMARKS :
The exhaust pipes had cracked twice at the #4 cylinder. The
second time was in flight; a safe by loud landing was made and
it was found that the pipe had completely separated and had
also cracked at the "Y" connection. The pipes were braced
from an oil pan bolt directly down to the pipes. The manufa-
cturer stated that the brace should have gone to the rear of
the pipes instead of straight down to the pipes.
DATE :910624
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-6
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming E2A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : Pacesetter 68x66
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : Alan Tolle
PARTNAME : Exhaust System PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : #4 Cylinder PART CONDITION : Broke
REMARKS :
#383 cont. After repair by Alan Tolle by adding a flexible sleeve at
the #4 cylinder. The exhaust system was braced as recommended. I ran
a brace from an oil pan bolt to the rear end of each pipe directly
in front of the firewall. After about 20 flight hours I have found
no further cracks or breaks; the sleeve at the #4 cylinder seems to
have given some flexibility to the system. Always check the tail
pipes before each flight, any grinding of metal, unusual noise or
excessive movement would be cause for further investigation.
DATE :910415
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-6
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O360A4M
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : Pacesetter 70X7130
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : Allan Tolle
PARTNAME : Stainless PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : #4 Cylinder PART CONDITION : Broke off
REMARKS :
The #4 cylinder pipe broke completely off at 12 hours TTSN.
Repaired and rebroke at 30 hours TTSN. Rewelded all welds and
added small reinforcement patches while flooding interior of
pipes with argon. There is now 160 hours on the aircraft with
no further problems. The pipes are unsupported between the
mounting flanges.
SYSTEM : X RECORD # : 608
DATE :930303
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-6
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O320-E3D
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : ALLAN TOLLE
PARTNAME : EXHAUST PIPE PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : #4 CYL. "Y" PART CONDITION : CRACKED
REMARKS :
CRACK OCCURRED AT THE "Y" JUNCTION BELOW THE #4 CYLINDER, THIS
OCCURRED EVEN THOUGH I HAVE BALL JOINTS WELDED INTO THE PIPES
AT THE #4 AND #1 CYLINDER STUBS. MY OPINION IS THAT BRACING
THESE PIPES FROM THE ENGINE IS A POOR IDEA AND THAT THE PIPES
THEMSELVES ARE POORLY MADE. THE MATERIAL SHOULD BE THICKER AND
EACH LEG BELOW THE CYLINDERS MUST HAVE SOME EXPANSION SLIP
OR A BALL JOINT.
DATE :930425
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-6
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O-320E2D
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : SENSENICH
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : FUEL PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : VAPOR LOCK
REMARKS :
AFTER A SHORT FLIGHT ON MOGAS THE PLANE WAS REFUELED WITH 80/87
AVGAS AND ON TAKEOFF THE ENGINE QUIT COLD AT ABOUT A SPEED OF
50 MPH JUST BEFORE ROTATION. ABORTED TAKEOFF, AND SUBSEQUENT
ENGINE START WAS UNEVENTFUL. OAT WAS 94F AND VAPOR LOCK WAS
THE MOST PROBABLE CAUSE. HOT STARTS ON MOGAS ON A HOT DAY ARE
A VERY POOR IDEA.
SYSTEM : X RECORD # : 726
DATE :941128
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-6A
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O320
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : PACESETTER
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : TOOLE
PARTNAME : EXHAUST PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
The exhaust system failed on three different occasions and was
rewelded. The system broke completely off at the #4 cylinder twice
and at the #1 cylinder once. Made for a very loud flight, but a
safe landing. Replaced the exhaust system with one from Highcountry
and have not experienced any problems so far.
RV-4 Reports
------------
SYSTEM : P RECORD # : 7
DATE :910122
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : Pacesetter 200
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : Prop blades PARTNUMBER : 703073
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : Blade failure
REMARKS :
The pilot had landed and was making another takeoff roll. A vibration
was noted, the pilot reduced power and shut the engine down to find
a 6 to 8 inch piece missing from one blade.
Prop date 06-10-90, total time - 112 hours.
Subsequent investigation by manufacturer suggests the possiblilty of
an earlier prop strike.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 255
DATE :901121
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : BRACKETS PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : FUSELAGE TO ENGINE PART CONDITION : CRACKED
REMARKS :
ALL FOUR OF THE FUSELAGE-ENGINE MOUNT BRACKETS CRACKED CAUSING A SERIOUS
SAFETY PROBLEM. SUBMITTER IS AWARE OF TWO OTHER RV4'S WHICH HAVE HAD THE
SAME PROBLEM.
SYSTEM : P RECORD # : 256
DATE :900721
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O320E2A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : BOLTS PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PROP PART CONDITION : LOOSE
REMARKS :
THE PROPELLER BOLTS WERE NOT TORQUED TO SPECS. PROP BECAME LOOSE AND
SEVERE VIBRATION DEVELOPED.
SYSTEM : P RECORD # : 450
DATE :910623
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O320-B3B
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : Lectro Prop 216/318
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : Lectro Prop 216/318
PARTNAME : Blades PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : Propeller PART CONDITION : Failed
REMARKS :
Both blades failed at the hub in flight. The hubs with parts of the
blades still in the hubs were examined and found to have failed
primarily due to a hydrolysis interaction between the wood and the
adhesive caused by excess moisture and heat. Hydrolysis is a chemical
decomposition process of the wood and glue relationship.
SYSTEM : O RECORD # : 473
DATE :910915
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O320A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : Acft. Metal Prod Stainless
PARTNAME : Hose PARTNUMBER : 762506-6
PART LOCATION : oil cooler PART CONDITION : Failed
REMARKS :
Installed AMP stainless hose, per PA38 connected oil cooler left
baffle to rear case with hoses. 1/2 inch hose failed at end
fitting in flight, causing engine failure. Purchased from Aircraft
Spruce, claims never failed before. There is AD on hose for twist.
I&A removed three other hoses on aircraft and no preload was
found.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 501
DATE :911204
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O320D1A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : Sterba 66x68
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : Brackets PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : Front Corner PART CONDITION : Cracked
REMARKS :
All four steel corner brackets that carry the engine mount loads
into the fuselage cracked after a time in service of 60 to 120 hours.
The aircraft had been operated mostly from a grass and dirt strip.
Reinforcing the brackets with Van's new heavier parts plus an
additional layer of 0.070 steel, solved the problem. There has been
no further cracking as of 500+ hours.
SYSTEM : E RECORD # : 538
DATE :920420
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O360-A4A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : Lewis Aviation
PARTNAME : Induct.Air Box PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : Failed
REMARKS :
The butterfly valve which switches air from outside to alternate
heat source is held on by three 256 screws which are too small.
The screws failed causing the valve to fall against carburator
intake and restrict the air flow to the carb. Also caused a loss
of carb heat.
SYSTEM : X RECORD # : 539
DATE :920421
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O360-A4A
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : Toole
PARTNAME : Exh. Manifold PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : Cracked
REMARKS :
The exhaust manifold failed due to cracks on three different occasions
after welding and bracing in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations. The part was improperly formed to fit on the O360 and
rubbed on the oil pan where it crossed over and was wearing away the oil
pan. Replaced with two separate exhaust stacks which were made of heavier
steel and they have not failed in 600 hours. In conversations with other
RV-4 owners, they indicate that they have had similar problems.
SYSTEM : F RECORD # : 562
DATE :920709
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O320
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : AC
PARTNAME : FUEL PUMP PARTNUMBER : 41271D197
PART LOCATION : ENGINE PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
FUEL PUMP FAILED ON TAKEOFF. PILOT WAS UNABLE TO RESTART THE
ENGINE. INVESTIGATION REVEALED THAT THE SPRING ON ONE OF THE
CHECK VALVES FAILED.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 622
DATE :930324
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC 0320B2B
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : HARTZELL
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : BRACKET PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : UPPER LEFT PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
THE UPPER LEFT ENGINE/FIREWALL BRACKET FAILED. DISCOVERED AT 300
HOURS THE UPPER RIGHT ENGINE/FIREWALL BRACKET WAS CRACKED. LOWER
BRACKETS CHECKED OK. THESE WERE THE FIRST DISIGN VERSION BRACKETS.
REPLACED WITH THE 1993 VERSION BRACKETS. AIRCRAFT IS USED FOR ONLY
OCCASIONAL MODERATE AEROBATICS. NO HISTORY OF HARD LANDINGS OR OF
ACCIDENTS.
SYSTEM : O RECORD # : 701
DATE :940716
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-4
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : Oil Cooler PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : Front engine PART CONDITION : cracked
REMARKS :
Upon inspection before flight, the oil cooler mounting bracket
welds were found completely broken and the oil cooler held in by
only the silicone sealant. The aircraft had less than 20 hours
when discovered. Upon replacement the cooler has shown no other
damage.
RV-3/3A Reports
-------------
SYSTEM : E RECORD # : 19
DATE :901027
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV-3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O320E2D
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : Engine PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : Failed
REMARKS :
The engine failed on final approach. No cause determined.
SYSTEM : F RECORD # : 25
DATE :900806
AIRCRAFT MODEL : Vans RV-3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : Lycoming O320E2D
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : Engine PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : Failed
REMARKS :
The engine lost power on takeoff. OAT 107. Initial cause determined
was probable vapor lock.
SYSTEM : F RECORD # : 245
DATE :890721
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : ENGINE PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
USING MOGAS. VAPOR LOCKED AND ENGINE FAILED.
SYSTEM : M RECORD # : 246
DATE :900000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O290D2
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL : BENDIX S4LN21
PARTNAME : IMPULSE COUPLING PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : MAGNETO PART CONDITION : SPRING BROKE
REMARKS :
AIRCRAFT STARTED OK, BUT HAD A POPPING NOISE FROM THE EXHAUST PIPES. A
MAGNETO CHECK SHOWED THE LEFT MAGNETO WOULD DROP OFF 600 RPM TO 700 RPM,
AND RUN ON ALL 4 CYLINDERS. A TIMING CHECK SHOWED THE LEFT MAGNETO WAS
FIRING AT TDC, AND THE IMPULSE COUPLING WOULD NOT SNAP WHEN PROPPING THE
ENGINE. SUBMITTER STATES CAUSE UNKNOWN, REPLACED SPRING AT OVERHAUL. SPRING
HAD BROKE IN 2 PARTS ABOUT 3 INCHES FROM ONE END.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 247
DATE :800000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : MOUNT PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : RLG ATTACHMENT PART CONDITION : DAMAGED
REMARKS :
FOUND THE ENGINE MOUNT DAMAGED AT RIGHT MAIN LANDING GEAR ATTACHMENT.
SYSTEM : E RECORD # : 248
DATE :800000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : CARB HEAT BOX PARTNUMBER : 21323
PART LOCATION : FLANGE WELDS PART CONDITION : BROKEN
REMARKS :
NO TEXT.
SYSTEM : E RECORD # : 249
DATE :810000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC IO320
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : BUTTERFLY PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : AIR INTAKE PART CONDITION : LOOSE
REMARKS :
THE ENGINE QUIT DUE TO BUTTERFLY VALVE COMING LOOSE AND BLOCKING
THE AIR INTAKE. SCREWS HAD NOT BEEN STAKED AND BACKED OUT.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 250
DATE :810000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : SPAR PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : LEFT WING PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
LEFT WING SEPARATED FROM AIRCRAFT WHEN SPAR FAILED DURING A LOW LEVER
HIGH SPEED PULL UP.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 251
DATE :870000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O320
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : WING SPAR PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : REAR ATTACH POINT PART CONDITION : BROKEN
REMARKS :
THE AIRCRAFT WAS PERFORMING AEROBATIC MANEUVERS. WHILE IN A CLIMB,IT
APPEARS THE RIGHT FUEL TANK AND FLAP DEPARTED THE AIRCRAFT, FOLLOWED BY THE
WING. THE AIRCRAFT NOSED OVER AND WENT STRAIGHT INTO THE GROUND. THE CENTER
OF THE RIGHT WING WAS BENT UPWARDS. THE REAR SPAR ATTACH POINT FOR THE WING
WAS BROKEN. FURTHER INVESTIGATION REVEALED THAT THE REAR WING SPAR
MODIFICATION WAS INSTALLED AND THE AIRCRAFT WAS APPROVED TO PERFORM
AEROBATICS.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 252
DATE :880000
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL :
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL :
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : SPAR PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : FORWARD PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
ACCORDING TO THE SUBMITTER, THE AIRCRAFT WAS OBSERVED PERFORMING A SERIES
OF AEROBATIC MANEUVERS. WITNESS SAID THE AIRCRAFT WAS IN A LEFT SPIN AND
WHEN THE AIRCRAFT RECOVERED, HE NOTICED THE LEFT WING WAS BENT UPWARD. THE
AIRCRAFT WAS PULLED LEVEL JUST AS IT IMPACTED THE GROUND. SUBSEQUENT
INVESTIGATION REVEALED THE MAIN SPAR HAD FAILED DUE TO OVERLOAD. IT IS
UNKNOWN WHICH MANEUVER CAUSED THE FAILURE.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 253
DATE :901204
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O290
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : GREAT AMERICAN 68/71
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : BRACKET FUSE/ENG PARTNUMBER : WD-302L 7 R
PART LOCATION : FUSELAGE 9(INSIDE) PART CONDITION : CRACKED
REMARKS :
AIRPLANE HAS APPROXIMATELY 200 HOURS AND THE BRACKETS ARE STARTING TO
BREAK. THIS AREA NEEDS IMMEDIATE ATTENTION BY ALL BUILDERS AND FLYERS.
FOUND DURING INSPECTION.
SYSTEM : A RECORD # : 254
DATE :901116
AIRCRAFT MODEL : RV3A
ENGINE MAKE/MODEL : LYC O320E2D
PROPELLER MAKE/MODEL : GREATAMER
COMPONENT MAKE/MODEL :
PARTNAME : SPAR ATTACH POINT PARTNUMBER :
PART LOCATION : REAR SPAR PART CONDITION : FAILED
REMARKS :
THE REAR SPAR ATTACH POINT FAILED. NEEDS A STRONGER REAR SPAR.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Thu Jan 5 15:59:09 0800 1995 remote from ccgate.fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov
Subject: Re[2]: Spins and props
name=Text_Item
name=Text_Item
I sent this a few days ago, but I'm not sure that it made it out. Sorry if this
is a duplicate post.
Glad to hear that we are back on-line. I was beginning to think that everyone
had gotten too involved in their new Christmas tools and toys to play with email
any more. Email, don't fail me now... I'm gonna need all the moral support I
can get over the next few years...
Thanks,
Russ Nichols
Does anyone have any specifics about the "no spins" advice. Is it
just "suggested" or is it a hard and fast warning?
I'm ordering my empenage (for a 6) after the 1st and this is something
that I didn't know about. When I actually finish it, I want to go out
and play. Spins may not be a direct objective, but I can see how it
would happen if I messed up something else. I'm concerned that the
"no spins" clause means "it's VERY hard to get it out of a REAL spin".
thanks,
Russ Nichols
p.s. .....Happy Holidays.....
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
>I read in a CAFE report on the RV6A that Van's advises against spins.
>Is this true? Is it true for just the RV6A or is the RV6 and RV4 included?
No spins in the -6/-6A.
>I was also wondering about wooden props? Are the ones recomended
>for the RVs Type certified.
No
>Does using a wooden prop increase the test flight time on the aircraft?
Usually yes.
dw
Scott Hathcock
Hoping to start an RV4/6 in the near future.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Flaring tools (fwd) |
I don't recall the brand name of my flair tool but
it is the simple steel blocks and the flair yoke.
It does not have the 1/8" flair (which I needed later
and had to buy a special tool just to flair 1/8 line
for primer, fuel pressure, etc.)
Also, I thought the small size would be nice but all
the lines are easy to get to. If I had to buy it again
I would buy the one that had the 1/8" hole also and not
be concerned about the size.
When doing the flaring, remember to slip on the nut and
sleeve first. When I did my Pitot line, I redid it 3 times
as each time I left the sleve off, I would get involved
in cutting off the old flair and then reflaired again
without slipping on the sleve and nut! Strange how your
mind gets in a rut some times. Lucky I had some extra
length to work with.
> From root Thu Jan 5 12:19:19 1995
> From: mail.mei.com!JIM-SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com
> Message-Id:
> X-Mailer: WordPerfect Office 4.0
> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 08:29:21 -0600
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Flaring tools
>
> I thought everyone was just ignoring me
> glad to here we are back on the air.
>
>
> I need to get a flaring tool for working on
> the tanks, pitot tube etc.
>
> I noticed that Avery sells two for about
> the same price one is a Parker brand and
> the other is Imperial/Eastman. The Imperial
> looks like it is smaller and might be
> better for field repair jobs but it doesn't
> do 1/8 primer line.
>
> Does any one have any experience with
> either of these? As usual one tool doennt
> seem adequate. I am leaning towards the
> Parker model but if I can't repair a line
> with it in a tight place that means one has
> to buy two of these things.
>
> Or I could get the other and borrow one for
> the primer line.
>
> Any thoughts.
>
> Jim
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Riveting skins (fwd) |
I find it hard to believe that you got poor results by dimpling.
Where did you get your dimple dies? You want to use quality dimple dies
from Avery or Sid Golden or the place in Iowa.
Did you use the yoke tool from Avery to dimple the skins? This should
ensure the dimple tool is 90 degrees to the skin.
The only other problem would be not getting enough dimple if you use a
squeezer. In some cases you need to use a small washer under the die.
This is only on thin skins.
I have always had the problem of getting inconsistent results with
the counter sink method.
I agree you can clean up a dimple with a hand C/S tool or a counter sink
if needed but that should be in rare cases.
The other case I have seen is shooting primer over the C/S or Dimpled holes
can sometimes change the depth the rivet will seat.
> From root Thu Jan 5 13:04:01 1995
> From: delphi.com!JERRYWALKER(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 01:41:38 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Riveting skins
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Message-Id: <01HLGX8QLKI095QFGG(at)delphi.com>
> X-Vms-To: IN%"rv-list(at)matronics.com"
>
> I just completed the H.S. I dimpled the skins and ribs/spars. The
> dimpling process is not quite uniform. I took a countersink bit and
> adjusted it to the correct depth of the flush rivet and lightly (repeat:
> lightly) shaved the dimpled skin before inserting the rivet. This process
> delivers a very smooth finish and a pleasing appearance to the finisted
> work.
>
> Looking forward the the V.S,
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage floor rivet problem |
Don,
I think the -6A you refered to was my information on N131LH.
This particular -6A has a 180 HP engine and has over 200 hours.
There was only slight loosening of a few rivets (less than 6) in the
central area only -- that is in the area of the cowl exhaust, behind the
nosewheel, and none on the floor stiffeners.
Having just drilled this area, I would believe the previous
speculation that the 3/32 rivets at 1.25 inch spacing just don't pull down
the 0.040 skin tight against the 1/8 firewall angle. There is a couple of
degrees slope here (the firewall is higher than the F604 bulkhead - lower
while upside down in the jig!!), and the gap is obivious when looking
through the drilled holes. There is more slope at the center than the
edges of the firewall, making matters worse in the center. If this is the
case, then the 1/8 rivet change should be a good fix.
I chose the 1/8 rivet option at 1 inch spacing, but I will leave
the forward row (0.040 floor skin to stainless firewall web) at 3/32, since
pulling the stainless sheet tight against the skin is no problem. I also
much prefer dimpling over countersinking wherever possible.
Gil Alexander ... finished fuselage skin drilling!!
>There was at least 1 -6A involved, and the ones I have seen are not dimpled.
>
>My final recommendation (you can/should evaluate this recommendation based-on
>your own skills that will be well developed by the time you get to that point
>in
>your project) is as follows:
>
>For NEW construction, use 1/8 rather than 3/32 rivets, and dimple them rather
>than machine countersink them.
>
>For completed a/c, there are options:
>1 - drill-out and replace failing rivets with 1/8 universal head rivets.
>or
>2 - drill-out and replace failing rivets with 3/32 rivets, and add another
>matching rivet in-between where possible, to increase the total rivet count.
>or
>3 - drill-out and replace failing rivets with oops (1/8 shank, 3/32 head)
>rivets, and add another matching rivet in-between where possible, to increase
>the total rivet count.
>
>Note that these are ONLY my opinions. Neither these 'fixes' NOR the fact that
>a
>change is required are necessarily recognized by Van's. The fact that I had a
>problem here is the main reason I am recommending that you evaluate the
>situation and MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION.
>
>I plan to use option 3 to repair my RV-6.
>dw
>
>RV folks,
>
>In all of the talk about the rivets that have been come loose on the
>underside of the fuselage at F-604 bulkhead I don't recall if this was
>happening on the 6A's as well as the 6's. Seems to me there would be less
>stress there on a tricycle geared plane.
>
>Also, on the planes this is happening on were the rivet holes countersunk
>or dimpled?
>
>Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
>Whidbey RV-ators
>Coupeville, WA
>(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kvap(at)solar.sky.net (Kevin E. Vap) |
Hello RV builders.
I'm new to the RV-List. My name is Kevin Vap. I am considering a homebuilt
project, and the RV-6 seems the most attractive to me. I probably won't
start building for awhile yet (maybe later this year), as I'm not quite
prepared. So I'll probably be just mostly observing on this newgroup.
I would like to take a demo ride before I make my final decision, so if
anyone with a completed project could offer, I would really appreciate it.
I live in the Kansas City area, and will be in Oshkosh for the Fly-In, and
am considering going to Lakeland for Sun-n-Fun.
Happy building...
Kevin Vap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Need info for Texas RVer/ Van's note |
> I talked with Ken at Van's about a $50. one time update for the drawings
> they talked about awhile back. He stated that the drawings would now be
> included in each kit ordered vs. having to send for an update at some
> point in time.
> I forgot to ask, but are any of the drawings done on CAD now? The set I
> have is over a year old.
>
> Thanks,
> Harold
> RV-6A
> //only 11,800 more rivets to go//
Some bits and pieces are in CAD but it's a pretty small percentage
still I believe (haven't looked at a tail section plan for a while
though).
Bill Benedict was over at my shop the other day and he told me about
this new plan to ship the drawings specific to the kit out with
each kit (e.g. tail, wings, fuse, etc). He also said they'd be
offering a full set of plans in reduced form (and at a reduced price),
so people could have a set to look over. I like this idea, except for
the fact that I have found it helpful to refer ahead from time to time,
and the reduced set will lose a lot of resolution. Also, the cost of
the plans sections will be added to the cost of the component, so those
of us who already BOUGHT a full set will have to start paying for the
updated sections as well. Oh well, small price to pay for getting the
most up-to-date I guess.
Randall
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Someone on this was asking about the Parker vs. Imperial Eastman
flaring tools in the Avery catalog. I usually try to reply to
such requests via e-mail, but I accidentally deleted the
message, so I don't know who it came from.
I've not used the Imperial Eastman, but I have used the Parker.
It's a nice tool, and built in a foolproof way so that it's
almost impossible to screw up a flaring. If I had to buy
a flaring tool, I'd buy the Parker.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Intro of new sucker |
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Hi folks,
I been lurking for a couple of weeks now but I thought I should take
a sec and introduce myself. I'm Mike Fredette and I live up in RV heaven, Portland
Oregon, I'm a CSEL pilot, with about 800 hours and an insrument rating I hardly
use. I sold a Bonanza a year ago and after a couple of false starts, with Don Wentz's
encouragement I finally got going and bought another tail kit, RV4 this time. (6
last
time). I picked it up at Vans two weeks ago and have just about got the HS skeleton
ready to go into the jig for skinning. It goes rather quickly once you get going.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Cutting Alclad -Reply |
Now there the excuse I need to get that
router. Hope Sears has a post Holiday sale.
Chris, one small note I cut the control
surface cutouts roughly with the aviation
snips and then got real close with a
dremel tool with the 1/4 rotary cutter that
they sell. Looks like a small router bit. I
have used it to cut a number of things on
Alclad so far.
Last night I opened up the hole for the
landing lights using the Dremel with one of
those fiberglass wheels. It worked pretty
well you have to be very careful that the
wheel doesn't climb on top and run down the
skin. I opened it up to within 1/8 inch of
the lines and then used the rotary bit to
get closer then finish file to get straight
lines. At little time consuming but no
distortion of the skin.
I knew these old model airplane tools would
be good some day.
Jim S
RV6 23082
Leading edges riveted / installing landing
lights.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Paints for the RV |
<199501051532.HAA08218(at)cheetah.it.wsu.edu>
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Don asks,
>My partner and I have been long debating this issue of which paint to
>apply. I have back yard experience painting cars with lacquer and acrilyic
>enamels. Having spoken to several chemist types in the coatings industry
>they tell me that the molecule structure of coatings such as Imron allow the
>material to flex much more through temperature changes. Such coating also
>tend to seal tight preventing moisture to pass through.
Just a quick comment on using urethanes on aircraft. I subsribed to
Aviation Consumer and Aviation Safety a few years back and kept many of the
back issues. The latest Used Aircraft Guide has an intersting comment on this
subject. Seems that Cessna (no flames) in the mid or late seventies began using
the Dupont Imron polyurethanes on many (maybe all, I dunno) of their models. Dupont
gave them very specific instructions about properly etching, Alodining, and then
priming before using the Imron. According to the article, the urethanes are porous
and allow moisture through, trapping it next to the aluminum.
Cessna chose to ignore Dupont's advice and instead just
used their usual etch/Alodine method in an effort to cut costs (sounds familiar).
Well about 18 months to two years later, Cessna was shelling out MASSIVE bucks
to
repaint several thousand airplanes, primarily in the Florida/Gulf Coast area, because
of widespread cases of filliform corrosion. Some of the cases were evidently quite
severe, to the point where skins and bulk heads, usually in the tail sections,
had to
be replaced on planes less than 5 years old. Even today, these Aviation Consumer
folk
say to check very closely for filliform worm trails under the paint of these Cessnas
that were built and painted with polyurethane. They said as long as the Dupont
instructions were followed, ie, properly primed there should be no problem using
the
urethane paint systems. For what it's worth.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
I'm familiar with the difficulties associated with getting your fuel
senders set up so they read accuractely, but usually the problems have
been attributed to the installation, this is the first I've heard of
the senders themselves being poor quality. How do you tell the diff
between the old and new type SW senders? I have one installed in one
tank but haven't done the other one yet. Bought em about a year ago.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> >--------------
> >
> > >Is every body happy with Vans sending
> > >units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
> > >good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
> > >
> > I think "is ANYBODY happy with them" may be more accurate. I thought
> > they were horrible at first, but after 130hrs I am used to the readings
> > I get. The left sender gets intermittant when the tank is full, so I
> > just run that tank first and the needle gets stable again at 3/4. Even
> > the intermittancy is intermittant. If cost isn't an issue, there are
> > better solutions available, otherwise, use the SW senders and get used
> > to it like most of us do. No big deal.
> >
> >--------------
>
>
> Well, the old-style SW sender is pretty much a piece of junk. The resistance
> is done with a poorly formed wirewound resistor. There isn't much to keep the
> wiper (connected to the float arm) evenly pressing against the resistor. Thus,
> you end up with eratic readings like Don is seeing. They are a poor design.
>
> The good news is that the newer SW fuel senders use a much better arangment.
> It is kind of hard to discribe, but it more of a conventional potentometer and
> the float arm alignment is much better.
>
> The bad news is that when I ask for the standard Van's spec'd SW sender part
> number, the units they gave be don't exactly look like the older style. It is
> very possible that they will align the same, but frankly I havn't tryed to
> fit them.
>
> The other 'bad news' is that the new models are about twice as expensive. As
I
> recall, I paid about $15 each of the old style SWs about 4 years ago. The new
> ones I just got were about $30 as I recall.
>
> Humm, seems like there might be a market here, aye Don??? ;-)
>
> Matt Dralle
> RV-4
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
The old ones are all metal and have a round "cup" that protects the inside.
The new ones are made of metal and nylon and have so such cup. The also look
like they were designed this century...
Matt
>--------------
> I'm familiar with the difficulties associated with getting your fuel
> senders set up so they read accuractely, but usually the problems have
> been attributed to the installation, this is the first I've heard of
> the senders themselves being poor quality. How do you tell the diff
> between the old and new type SW senders? I have one installed in one
> tank but haven't done the other one yet. Bought em about a year ago.
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
>>
>>>--------------
>>>
>>> >Is every body happy with Vans sending
>>> >units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
>>> >good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
>>> >
>>> I think "is ANYBODY happy with them" may be more accurate. I thought
>>> they were horrible at first, but after 130hrs I am used to the readings
>>> I get. The left sender gets intermittant when the tank is full, so I
>>> just run that tank first and the needle gets stable again at 3/4. Even
>>> the intermittancy is intermittant. If cost isn't an issue, there are
>>> better solutions available, otherwise, use the SW senders and get used
>>> to it like most of us do. No big deal.
>>>
>>>--------------
>>
>
>>Well, the old-style SW sender is pretty much a piece of junk. The resistance
>>is done with a poorly formed wirewound resistor. There isn't much to keep the
>>wiper (connected to the float arm) evenly pressing against the resistor. Thus,
>>you end up with eratic readings like Don is seeing. They are a poor design.
>>
>>The good news is that the newer SW fuel senders use a much better arangment.
>>It is kind of hard to discribe, but it more of a conventional potentometer and
>>the float arm alignment is much better.
>>
>>The bad news is that when I ask for the standard Van's spec'd SW sender part
>>number, the units they gave be don't exactly look like the older style. It is
>>very possible that they will align the same, but frankly I havn't tryed to
>>fit them.
>>
>>The other 'bad news' is that the new models are about twice as expensive. As
I
>>recall, I paid about $15 each of the old style SWs about 4 years ago. The new
>>ones I just got were about $30 as I recall.
>>
>>Humm, seems like there might be a market here, aye Don??? ;-)
>>
>>Matt Dralle
>>RV-4
>>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Gaskets (was Re: Wing Tanks) -Reply |
Herman Dierks wrote:
> On the gasket, I used Neoprene. I bought
a sheet of it at Capital Bearing
> here, probably any bearing or hose shop
will carry it. About 1/16 inch thick.
> It as other uses as well. I don't like
the cork as it has problems with age.
Did you use pro-seal or fuel lube? What did
you do around the screws?
I was planning on using a Buna-N rubber
gasket and fuel lube, but someone else who
did this had difficulty sealing the screws.
I was thinking of doing that and then
pro-sealing the screws, but was concerned
that the fuel lube would squeeze out around
the screws and mess up the proseal seal.
Someone else made little rubber washers to
go under the screws, but my concern with
this is that you couldn't torque the screws
enough without tearing the washers.
(Earl...?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Randall, I was discussing this just
yesterday with Bob Brumwell who is flying
his -6 and he told me that he used closed
end nut plates. He found them at Wicks in
Illinois. If you haven't put the nut plates
in yet this might solve the problem. Bob
gooped pro-seal around the nut plates. He
also put pro-seal around the outside of the
cover though.
Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks (fwd) -Reply |
My comments:
Regarding cleaning, use MEK first and then
use the acid etch (brightner) that
you would use to Alodine. It cleans the
metal. I don't recall if I alodined
the parts also. I don't think I did. The
alodine could protect the AL from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wonder if the alodine will conflict with
the pro-seal?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
corrosion from water sitting in the bottom
of the tank.
Try to keep the parts clean and use MEK
again before you put on the proseal to
get any finger marks off.
On the gasket, I used Neoprene. I bought a
sheet of it at Capital Bearing
here, probably any bearing or hose shop
will carry it. About 1/16 inch thick.
It as other uses as well. I don't like the
cork as it has problems with age.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Are you using any kind of sealer under the
Neoprene?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the finger strainer, I think you want
one. You don't want some glob of
proseal or junk plugging the end or
getting sucked into your boost pump.
The old plans just mashed the end of the
tube closed and saw cut some notches
it it. I think Van now sells the finger
screens which is what I would use.
I think they are already soldered on to
the AL tube.
Also, I did not slosh my complete inside
of the tank. I don't beleive in that.
Why coat good solid aluminum? What I did
was reach in a paint all the seams
with multiple coats with a small brush.
Let it cure a few days and redo it
several times. You can slosh some areas
you can not reach with a brush if
needed by pooring in a little slosh and
only doing the needed area.
Also, don't slosh it until the proseal has
cured for several weeks. I was told
it emits a gas as it cures and it takes
some time for it to cure completly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree completely why put pro-seal on
solid aluminum sheeting. Did you use 802 or
912 slosh?
Does any one have more detail on the whole
slosh problem. Is it preparation or auto
fuels on AVgas slosh. Most likely like all
problems a little of both.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Gaskets (was Re: Wing Tanks) -Reply |
I looked into those closed end nutplates but found the cost
to be too high. Where I was looking anyway they were somewhere
between $1.50 and $2.00 apiece (don't remember the exact amount),
which adds up pretty quickly when you're doing those access rings.
It wasn't at Wicks however, they may be cheaper. Maybe someone with
a Wicks catalog will look them up and post the info...?
Besides, I'd already riveted on the rings anyhow. Seems like a neat
thing to do though, if you don't mind the cost.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> From JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com Fri Jan 6 10:49:01 1995
> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 13:55:13 -0600
> From: JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com
> To: randall(at)edt.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Fuel Gaskets (was Re: Wing Tanks) -Reply
>
> Herman Dierks wrote:
>
> > On the gasket, I used Neoprene. I bought
> a sheet of it at Capital Bearing
> > here, probably any bearing or hose shop
> will carry it. About 1/16 inch thick.
> > It as other uses as well. I don't like
> the cork as it has problems with age.
>
> Did you use pro-seal or fuel lube? What did
> you do around the screws?
> I was planning on using a Buna-N rubber
> gasket and fuel lube, but someone else who
> did this had difficulty sealing the screws.
> I was thinking of doing that and then
> pro-sealing the screws, but was concerned
> that the fuel lube would squeeze out around
> the screws and mess up the proseal seal.
> Someone else made little rubber washers to
> go under the screws, but my concern with
> this is that you couldn't torque the screws
> enough without tearing the washers.
> (Earl...?)
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Randall, I was discussing this just
> yesterday with Bob Brumwell who is flying
> his -6 and he told me that he used closed
> end nut plates. He found them at Wicks in
> Illinois. If you haven't put the nut plates
> in yet this might solve the problem. Bob
> gooped pro-seal around the nut plates. He
> also put pro-seal around the outside of the
> cover though.
>
> Jim S.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Re: Was Re: Flaring tools -Reply now mogas |
Bob,
I've read that you used mogas in your 150.
What kind of slosh did you use and have you
had any problems?
I am still debating this whole 150 versus
160 deal. I would like the ability to run
mogas for doing laps around the pea patch
to stay sharp and current. But I weigh 200
and live in FL where it is hot. Hate to
give up any climb. No I don't want the
comlexity of a CS prop. Nor do I want give
up much cruise. I wonder if I could run
mogas premium in a 160. I used to throw it
in my Cherokee 180 all the time. Seemed to
actually run better.
Any ideas?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael A Goldsmith <Michael_A_Goldsmith(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Joke from Rec.humor.funny |
Text item: Text_1
Subject: Santa's checkride
From: THEBOBSTER(at)delphi.com
Approved: funny(at)clarinet.com
news.jf.intel.com!ornews.intel.com!chnews!ssd.intel.com!uunet!looking!fu
nny-request
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 3:20:02 EST
This is from my Uncle George, who's retired USAF. (US Air Force)
Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from the Federal
Aviation
Administratio, and it was shortly before Christmas when the FAA
examiner arrived.
In preparation, Santa had the elves wash the sled and bathe all the
reindeer. Santa got his logbook out and made sure all his paperwork
was in order.
The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He check the reindeer
harnesses,
the landing gear, and Rudolf's nose. He painstakingly reviewed Santa's
weight and balance calculations for sled's enormous payload.
Finally, they were ready for the checkride. Santa got in and fastened
his seatbelt and shoulder harness and checked the compass. Then the
examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a shotgun.
"What's that for?" asked Santa incredulously.
The examiner winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell you this, but
you're gonna lose an engine on takeoff."
--
Selected by Maddi Hausmann Sojourner. MAIL your joke to
funny(at)clarinet.com.
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible. A Daemon will
auto-reply.
Remember: Only ONE joke per submission. Extra jokes may be rejected.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
| Subject: | RV construction in an apartment |
I would like to give a bit of encouragement to lurkers and others who are
hesitant to take the plunge and start construction because of shop space
constraints. I have been working on an RV-6A empennage in the second
bedroom of a two bedroom apartment, and have found that this sub-optimal
shop space slows me down, but hasn't stopped me yet. Space isn't really
the concern for the empennage, but the lack of an air compressor is (my
neighbors probably hate me enough already with just the drilling noise).
Much of the stabilizer skeleton can be riveted together with hand squeezers
and primed with aerosol cans of zinc chromate, so an air compressor is not
critical at this early stage. I have been using a Ryobi cordless drill and
a Harbor Freight cheapo drill press for everything, and am quite satisfied.
In short, there's enough to do to have kept me busy for a few months
(working very slowly--the new job takes most of my time). And yes, I am
looking for a garage to rent.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Bummer, I've got the old style senders. I wonder if it would be worth
it to change at this time. It would mean having to retrofit the one I
already installed in my left tank, but the access plate isn't sealed on
yet so that's not that bad, as long as the holes line up. The main
thing is I'd have to junk the sender I installed in that tank. I wonder
if Van's would exchange the other one. Guess I could go pick one up
from Van's just to have a look, I could always take it back.
What yould YOU do (Matt, or anyone else...?) Are the newer senders enough
of an improvement to take the time/spend the money at this stage?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> The old ones are all metal and have a round "cup" that protects the inside.
> The new ones are made of metal and nylon and have so such cup. The also look
> like they were designed this century...
>
> Matt
>
>
> >--------------
> > I'm familiar with the difficulties associated with getting your fuel
> > senders set up so they read accuractely, but usually the problems have
> > been attributed to the installation, this is the first I've heard of
> > the senders themselves being poor quality. How do you tell the diff
> > between the old and new type SW senders? I have one installed in one
> > tank but haven't done the other one yet. Bought em about a year ago.
> >
> > Randall Henderson
> > RV-6
> >
> >>
> >>>--------------
> >>>
> >>> >Is every body happy with Vans sending
> >>> >units? Stewart Warner always seemed to be
> >>> >good stuff in my old hot rodding days.
> >>> >
> >>> I think "is ANYBODY happy with them" may be more accurate. I thought
> >>> they were horrible at first, but after 130hrs I am used to the readings
> >>> I get. The left sender gets intermittant when the tank is full, so I
> >>> just run that tank first and the needle gets stable again at 3/4. Even
> >>> the intermittancy is intermittant. If cost isn't an issue, there are
> >>> better solutions available, otherwise, use the SW senders and get used
> >>> to it like most of us do. No big deal.
> >>>
> >>>--------------
> >>
> >
> >>Well, the old-style SW sender is pretty much a piece of junk. The resistance
> >>is done with a poorly formed wirewound resistor. There isn't much to keep
the
> >>wiper (connected to the float arm) evenly pressing against the resistor. Thus,
> >>you end up with eratic readings like Don is seeing. They are a poor design.
> >>
> >>The good news is that the newer SW fuel senders use a much better arangment.
> >>It is kind of hard to discribe, but it more of a conventional potentometer
and
> >>the float arm alignment is much better.
> >>
> >>The bad news is that when I ask for the standard Van's spec'd SW sender part
> >>number, the units they gave be don't exactly look like the older style. It
is
> >>very possible that they will align the same, but frankly I havn't tryed to
> >>fit them.
> >>
> >>The other 'bad news' is that the new models are about twice as expensive.
As I
> >>recall, I paid about $15 each of the old style SWs about 4 years ago. The
new
> >>ones I just got were about $30 as I recall.
> >>
> >>Humm, seems like there might be a market here, aye Don??? ;-)
> >>
> >>Matt Dralle
> >>RV-4
> >>
> >
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV construction in an apartment |
Richard Ernst wrote:
>
> I would like to give a bit of encouragement to lurkers and others who are
> hesitant to take the plunge and start construction because of shop space
> constraints. I have been working on an RV-6A empennage in the second
> bedroom of a two bedroom apartment, and have found that this sub-optimal
> shop space slows me down, but hasn't stopped me yet. Space isn't really
> the concern for the empennage, but the lack of an air compressor is (my
> neighbors probably hate me enough already with just the drilling noise).
> Much of the stabilizer skeleton can be riveted together with hand squeezers
> and primed with aerosol cans of zinc chromate, so an air compressor is not
> critical at this early stage. I have been using a Ryobi cordless drill and
> a Harbor Freight cheapo drill press for everything, and am quite satisfied.
> In short, there's enough to do to have kept me busy for a few months
> (working very slowly--the new job takes most of my time). And yes, I am
> looking for a garage to rent.
>
My compliments on making the best out of a cramped situation. I too
started small (12'x16' single car garage), which was ok for the tail.
But I had the "luxury" (if you can call it that) of having some extra
driveway space, onto which I built a temporary 8'x10' extension out the
front. Figured I'd need it to do the fuse, and I'm really glad I have
it while doing the wings as well. Now I'm taking advantage of some
extra space in BACK of the garage -- there's an old cracked slab back
there that used to be a porch, so I'm constructing a temporary shed,
about 11'x13', mainly so I can prime back there and don't run myself
out of the garage for a day with the fumes while it cures. Fortunately
the neighbors haven't complained yet. (the shed on the front I made look
nice, the one on the back is BUTT ugly but pretty much hidden).
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks (fwd) -Reply (fwd) |
Here are some answers to the questions below:
I don't think the alodine would hurt as it is
a chemical reaction. You would want to ensure
it does not dry on and flush it off and wipe
it off well. As I indicated, I don't remember
if I alodined or not. I know I etched it and
used scotch bright but don't recall on the alodine.
I used the slosh that Van sells. At the time
it came in an unmarked container but it is white.
I think the vendor was Randolph and they were trying
to take if off the market back about 5 yrs ago due
to liability but I think they are making it again.
On the the sealer under the gaskets, I think I put
proseal on my screws and in the holes when it put
them in to seal up the threads. I did not seal
the gasket area. Then you can go in through the
tank filler hole and poor in some slosh compound.
Set the tank on end with the root end down and
tip it to poor in some slosh and move the tank
around so the slosh can seal the screws and nutplates
and gasket from the inside.
My RV4 is not flying yet so I can't say if this is
fuel tight. I don't recall now if I leak tested them.
By the way, if anyone has thoughts of pressure testing
your tanks with air pressure, BEWARE. It only takes
a few (1 or 2) lb. of air pressure. You can bulge a
tank eaisly just with your lungs. My brother had told
be about someone that presurized an airplane fuel tank
to look for a leak and it bulged and he had to replace
the tank. I think one of
Tony B. articles suggesting using a baloon or rubber
glove as a pressure guage. This insures only minimal
pressure. You then look for leaks with soap solution
on the outside looking for bubbles.
You have to seal up the tank and one of the lines and
pressurize via the vent line for example.
Another thought I had was using some freon (which I
have) and a freon detector. These are very sensitive
to any small leak as they are used to find A/C freon
leaks. It would be good to do some form of checking
before you screw them onto the wings. You can fix
any problems easier when they are off and still clean.
Probably a little slosh would fix most problems.
In some cases it may require drilling out a rivit
or two and replacing them.
I guess you could also leak test with just gas but this
is a little messy and be carefull as it could be a
nice bomb as well.
Herman
>
>
> My comments:
> Regarding cleaning, use MEK first and then
> use the acid etch (brightner) that
> you would use to Alodine. It cleans the
> metal. I don't recall if I alodined
> the parts also. I don't think I did. The
> alodine could protect the AL from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I wonder if the alodine will conflict with
> the pro-seal?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> corrosion from water sitting in the bottom
> of the tank.
> Try to keep the parts clean and use MEK
> again before you put on the proseal to
> get any finger marks off.
>
> On the gasket, I used Neoprene. I bought a
> sheet of it at Capital Bearing
> here, probably any bearing or hose shop
> will carry it. About 1/16 inch thick.
> It as other uses as well. I don't like the
> cork as it has problems with age.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Are you using any kind of sealer under the
> Neoprene?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> On the finger strainer, I think you want
> one. You don't want some glob of
> proseal or junk plugging the end or
> getting sucked into your boost pump.
> The old plans just mashed the end of the
> tube closed and saw cut some notches
> it it. I think Van now sells the finger
> screens which is what I would use.
> I think they are already soldered on to
> the AL tube.
>
> Also, I did not slosh my complete inside
> of the tank. I don't beleive in that.
> Why coat good solid aluminum? What I did
> was reach in a paint all the seams
> with multiple coats with a small brush.
> Let it cure a few days and redo it
> several times. You can slosh some areas
> you can not reach with a brush if
> needed by pooring in a little slosh and
> only doing the needed area.
> Also, don't slosh it until the proseal has
> cured for several weeks. I was told
> it emits a gas as it cures and it takes
> some time for it to cure completly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I agree completely why put pro-seal on
> solid aluminum sheeting. Did you use 802 or
> 912 slosh?
>
> Does any one have more detail on the whole
> slosh problem. Is it preparation or auto
> fuels on AVgas slosh. Most likely like all
> problems a little of both.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Pressure testing Tanks |
The method we used to pressure test which is very safe is to use ballons on
the fuel inlet fitting to seal it off and then to attach a clear plastic
hose to the vent outlet fitting. This hose needs to fit tight which is easy
to do by warming it some to squeeze over the fitting. The hose needs to be
about 5 ft long filled with water. We used some blue food dye in the water
so you can see it better.
Becareful to avoid having the water run into the tank, not that it will
creat any disaster, only becuz it is nice to keep the tank dry inside.
Let the tube hang down from the tank and then attach the free end at some
point above the tank about 2 or 3 feet higher. The water should fill the
tube enough so that it extends near the tank attach point, but not to close.
Through the fuel drain you can pump air with a bicycle tire pump (after you
intall a standard fitting that allows that...I think my partner Monte King
got ours at a local hardware store).
As you pump the air in you will have two indicators working for you, the
ballon on the fuel line fitting will get stiff and the water column. The
key thing with the water column is to mark where the water line is located
at zero pressure. AS pressure is applied, via the pump, the column of water
will move up the tube. I think we ended up moving it about 20 inches on one
and a bit more on the other tank.
Once pressure is applied you will see changes in the water column from three
things.
1. During pumping you will note the the water level goes up and then down
over a period of a minute or so. This is due to the pump generating hot
air. When it cools the water column comes down.
2. After pumping, from five minutes on, the water column will go up or down
based on the room temperature changes ( note changes here). Alum is a great
conductor of heat and if the room ambient temp goes up or down the water
column is going to reflect that. So, try to keep the room at the same temp
to stop this swinging back and forth.
3. You have LEAKS! The leaks we encountered were easily noticed in the
change in the water column hieght sinking slowly over a period of a few
minutes. The water column is very sensitive if you wait long enough (hours
or days)
How did we find our leaks? Easy....soapy water in a spray bottle, just
like we have all done when fixing leaks in tires.
Where did we find leaks? A screw on the fuel sending unit mount (a
bugger to stop) and the fuel tank cap ( big one!). The tank cap was the
hardest to stop. On the second tank I placed several layers of duct tape
over the cap since my concern was other areas.
To seal our cover plate (fuel sending unit) plate we used aviation grade
sealing compound. Learned that it needs to dry some to thicken before doing
any testing.
We have not tested our tanks with fuel! They don't let air out, that's for
sure.
WE DID NOT SLOSH OUR TANKS. That will be our fall back position if we
encounter problems down the road. We did not alodine, but did stainless
brush all surfaces for ProSeal. We super cleaned with acetone, MEK, Lqr
thinner and hot soapy water. We used fresh ProSeal. We installed the
modified tank corner supports recommended by Art Chard. These supports are
supposed to deal with the most common leak area, the corners.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
| Subject: | skins preparation |
1. My horizontal stab has a slight but noticable concave spot where the
front spar joins the tip rib. If the spot was on the bottom skin, I would
not be concerned. But since it is on the top surface< I would like to fill
and sand. Does anyone out there in RV land have any good suggestions.
2. For those contemplating purchasing tools, there is someone offering
Pneumatic and hand tools at 1/3 the price of rebuilt/new tools. He
advertises in Sport Aviation. I do not recommend that you consider
these tools. WE had a bad experience with this source. Although the
gentleman refunded our money, the tools were in poor condition.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
Thanks to all that responded.
For folks like me who are not near active
EAA and particularly RV builders except for
you Bob, if your lurking, this is fantastic
advice.
Parker flaring tool is what I ordered seems
to be the tool of choice.
My take on the tanks are that I will
roughen with SS brush on pro-seal areas,
scothchbrite entire inner surface, incase I
have to slosh later, use MEK, etch,
Alodine, use MEK again before proseal. I
think I will try to get by without the
slosh. Have to wait a see how I feel about
my pro-seal job. At most may just paint it
on seams before closing rear baffle. I will
use a fuel sealer and neoprene on the tank
opening. Try to find a source for closed
end nutplates. Then test for leaks by Don's
M. method.
I am going to stick with the slotted fuel
pick up and use an automotive clear inline
filter between the wing and fuse. No one I
have spoken to has had a problem with the
slots. Its my feeling that a finger
strainer is more likely to plug and proper
draining of the fuel sample should keep the
tank clean.
At least that's the plan.
Again, thanks all, this really helps to
focus all those stray (if only I could
access all that random memory) thoughts.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Cutting Alclad |
Chris
In your message you stated you wanted to use single piece wing skins. I
have not heard of this before, so what are the advantages?
BOB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: skins preparation |
>
> 1. My horizontal stab has a slight but noticable concave spot where the
> front spar joins the tip rib. If the spot was on the bottom skin, I would
> not be concerned. But since it is on the top surface< I would like to fill
> and sand. Does anyone out there in RV land have any good suggestions.
Drill out enough rivets to put a shim under the low spot and re-rivet
the skinn.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | skins preparation -Reply |
1. My horizontal stab has a slight but
noticeable concave spot where the front
spar joins the tip rib. If the spot was on
the bottom skin, I would not be concerned.
But since it is on the top surface< I would
like to fill and sand. Does anyone out
there in RV land have any good suggestions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have tried a little filling on a small
area with a automotive Light weight bondo
type filler. I found this product to be too
hard for my liking. It is difficult to sand
it and not mess up the alclad. My brother
the body man has been experimenting for me
and he found a product called Euro-soft, I
don't remember the manufacturer, but they
also make a pourable thin bondo that isn't
too bad. Any way this Euro-soft is made for
aluminum bodied cars. It is designed to
take the expansion, contraction and stick
well to aluminum. I have not tried it yet
but when I get tired of metal work I am
going back to my tail to do the fiberglass
work I will.
________________________________________________________________________________
couple of suggestions. Rough up the surface
with scothbrite and etch with Alumi-prep.
Prime in a larger area so that you can see
if you a scratching outside the depression
when you sand. Layer in small amounts in
multiple batches. Don't try to fill too
much at once. Hand sand, between layers,
preferable with a rubber sanding block with
wet or dry paper wet. You don't want to
heat the aluminum. Be patient. Always sand
as much away as possible don't want any
extra weight and bulges show just a bad as
depressions once paint is on. Sometimes it
helps to throw some gloss paint on to see
the faults. Dull primer hides a lot.
Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
Now that I got everybody's attention you may ask: what the h*ll does
a shower door have to do with RV's? Well, I finally got done reading
the HUGE archive and I did not fail to notice that primers and surface
prep are the most frequently discussed topics. So this weekened while
taking a shower I realized that the aluminum used in the frame for the
shower door has been exposed to water at least once a day (slightly
salty to boot because I have a water softener) for over five years and
to numerous cleanings with somewhat caustic chemicals (chlorine type
stuff). Then I spent some time looking over it real carefully and could
not find a single trace of corrosion anywhere. The aluminum is not
painted and does not seem to have a clear coating over it. There is no
pitting to be found anywhere. So the question is: do manufacturers use
a special aluminum alloy or do they use a special treatment that
prevents the corrosion and can we use the same process to treat RV
skins? I hope this is not a stupid question but this really had me
wondering this weekend.
Andreas Meyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Loran/GPS Question... |
Hi everyone,
We are designing a product that will interface the the serial port on
Loran C and GPS receivers. Currently, we have support for 10 manufactures;
these are listed below. Do any of you know of any other brands of receivers??
We would like to go to market with global support for all receivers. Any
help would be most apperciated.
- IIMorrow
- Magellan
- Arnav
- Trimble
- Terra
- Garman
- King
- Ashtech
Thanks for your help,
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
Text item: Text_1
And, just in case you have a bad batch of MEK as I mentioned earlier,
dribble some on a shiny piece of alclad and look for cloudiness or funny
feel after it dries.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
| Subject: | Empennage construction: order, jigging, etc. |
I'm at the stage of (-6A) empennage construction where I'm getting the HS
skeleton into the jig for rib/spar mating (I'm following the Orndorf
video's suggestion of drilling ribs to spars while everything's mounting in
the jig). This leads me to a few questions:
1) Does it matter at all whether I prime and rivet parts before going on to
the next step? Or can I drill and cleco the entire skeleton (unprimed),
plus the skin, so that I can debur and prime everything at once (which is
much more convenient for me). Put another way, is it bad to have the
skeleton merely clecoed together when trying to get the entire skeleton put
together, or should I really prime and rivet as in the construction manual
and the video?
2) I have been priming all of my parts using: MetalPrep 79, Alodine 1200,
then zinc chromate (aerosol spray). The results have been reasonably good,
but patches of the chromate are blotchy, and in some small places (where I
put spring clamps when the primer was not 100% dry) the chromate has come
off. Should I A) not worry about it; B) touch up the questionable places
with a bit more chromate; or C) give the whole piece (for example, the HS
rear spar, which is completely riveted together) an extra coat of chromate
for good measure? I know that many builders are favoring the epoxy
primers, but this is not an option because I don't have ready access to a
compressor/paint gun right now. The RV builders in my area (Arkansas)
generally favor using no primer at all on Alclad.
3) I just built an empennage jig, but by necessity it is a portable
free-standing thing (I'm the idiot building in an apartment). My
impression is that as long as the cross-piece is straight and level (which
it is), and the uprights (or at least a straight line drawn on them) are
perpendicular to the cross-piece, that alignment should be fine. Are there
any cautionary tales from others who have built non-traditional jigs?
4) By and large, my HS skeleton has come out looking, and measuring, like
the blueprints. One dimension, however, is a bit off. According to the
plans, the distance from the front of the rear spar to the back of the font
spar should be 12 1/8". Mine comes out as 12 1/4". I can't find any
obvious mistakes--it seems as though the root ribs (which are really what
determine this distance) are just 1/8" too long. Is this just new-builder
paranoia (doesn't Van say that 1/16" is about the accuracy needed?), or
should I look into bending/reordering these ribs?
Rick.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
<9501091702.AA08983(at)hpanis.an.hp.com>
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
It's anodized. Most anodizing is colored only because they add
a dye as part of the process ie. RV pre built spars, AN fittings.
But "normal" anodizing is crystal clear, you can't even tell any
thing has been done to the base metal. This is very common on
window frames and yes, shower door frames
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
>
> pitting to be found anywhere. So the question is: do manufacturers use
> a special aluminum alloy or do they use a special treatment that
> prevents the corrosion and can we use the same process to treat RV
> skins? I hope this is not a stupid question but this really had me
> wondering this weekend.
>
> Andreas Meyer
>
Two things;
1 Your shower door is made of pure (nearly) aluminum wichis not as
suseptable to corrosion as the alloys used in aircraft construction.
The atoms of the different metals in an alloy like to swap electrons
when a dielectric (whater/gunk from the air) is added to the picture.
Extrusions are also much cheeper to make with pure aluminum than a
stronger alloy.
2. Alot of home construction aluminum is clear anodized.A good test
for anodizing is the scratch test. Anodizing is very hard and pure
aluminum is very soft. Also, unprotected aluminum will take on a
light grey color (like a silver coin (if anybody remembers them)) and
anodized aluminum will keep it's shine.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
<9501091702.AA08983(at)hpanis.an.hp.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> Now that I got everybody's attention you may ask: what the h*ll does
> a shower door have to do with RV's? Well, I finally got done reading
> the HUGE archive and I did not fail to notice that primers and surface
> prep are the most frequently discussed topics. So this weekened while
> taking a shower I realized that the aluminum used in the frame for the
> shower door has been exposed to water at least once a day (slightly
> salty to boot because I have a water softener) for over five years and
> to numerous cleanings with somewhat caustic chemicals (chlorine type
> stuff). Then I spent some time looking over it real carefully and could
> not find a single trace of corrosion anywhere. The aluminum is not
> painted and does not seem to have a clear coating over it. There is no
> pitting to be found anywhere. So the question is: do manufacturers use
> a special aluminum alloy or do they use a special treatment that
> prevents the corrosion and can we use the same process to treat RV
> skins? I hope this is not a stupid question but this really had me
> wondering this weekend.
Actually, the shower door is probably pure aluminum which is highly
corrosion resistant. Aircraft on the other hand use aluminum alloys for
strength. Unfortunately the cost of the strength is a big loss of
corrosion resistance.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
I can only assume that the frame on your shower door is "anodized", which is
an excellent way to protect against corrosion. It is relatively expensive
and you would have to send parts off to a plating shop before they were
assembled and riveted. Randall Henderson had his Spar anodized before he
assembled it. Anodizing also makes the surface of the metal harder and more
brittle. To what effect, I haven't the foggiest, but it might be something
to look into.
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
>
>Now that I got everybody's attention you may ask: what the h*ll does
>a shower door have to do with RV's? Well, I finally got done reading
>the HUGE archive and I did not fail to notice that primers and surface
>prep are the most frequently discussed topics. So this weekened while
>taking a shower I realized that the aluminum used in the frame for the
>shower door has been exposed to water at least once a day (slightly
>salty to boot because I have a water softener) for over five years and
>to numerous cleanings with somewhat caustic chemicals (chlorine type
>stuff). Then I spent some time looking over it real carefully and could
>not find a single trace of corrosion anywhere. The aluminum is not
>painted and does not seem to have a clear coating over it. There is no
>pitting to be found anywhere. So the question is: do manufacturers use
>a special aluminum alloy or do they use a special treatment that
>prevents the corrosion and can we use the same process to treat RV
>skins? I hope this is not a stupid question but this really had me
>wondering this weekend.
>
>Andreas Meyer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
> So the question is: do manufacturers use
>a special aluminum alloy or do they use a special treatment that
>prevents the corrosion and can we use the same process to treat RV
>skins?
Shower doors are anodized, which is an electrically formed coating of aluminum
oxide. Very brittle, weakens the material some. Also used in sailboat masts,
guard rails, other marine hardware. Has to be done tanks. Alclad (skins, ribs)
is already resistant to corrosion (except salt spray) because the outer 5
thousandths is a soft, almost pure aluminum. Primers and paints work just fine
for the RV.
>I hope this is not a stupid question but this really had me
>wondering this weekend.
There is no such thing as a stupid question, just that some people have been
building longer than others.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 95 12:02:59 EST
Subject: Shower door
From: Andreas Meyer <hpanis.an.hp.com!meyer(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingM(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
>My take on the tanks are that I will
>roughen with SS brush on pro-seal areas,
>scothchbrite entire inner surface, incase I
>have to slosh later, use MEK, etch,
>Alodine, use MEK again before proseal. I
>think I will try to get by without the
>slosh. Have to wait a see how I feel about
>my pro-seal job. At most may just paint it
>on seams before closing rear baffle. I will
>use a fuel sealer and neoprene on the tank
>opening. Try to find a source for closed
>end nutplates. Then test for leaks by Don's
>M. method.
>
I would be very cautious about using neoprene or buna-n for fuel tank gasket
material, particularly if you ever intend to use mogas. The future for
motor vehicle gasoline additives is very unclear. Currently, reformulated
gasoline laws require an oxygenate additive, meaning either ethanol or MTBE,
neithelt o Euv noilahamee.h idas nih os
gsf rludew on aw is
a ne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Fuel Gaskets closed end nutplates |
Concerning sealing of the screws that hold
the access cover on the fuel tanks I had
previously posted that Wicks carried closed
end nutplates. I just called them and they
do not now seem to even know of their
existence.
I did find them at Freeman Aviation in
Griffith, Georgia. They stock #4, #6 and #8
they come with a little o-ring seal and are
made for fuel tanks. Price is a little
steep at $9-$9.50 for 10 pieces. phone # is
404-227-2602. Seemed like very friendly
folks.
Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Empennage construction: order, jigging, etc. (fwd) |
See my answers below: Herman
> From root Mon Jan 9 23:42:07 1995
> Message-Id: <199501091939.LAA02812(at)uumail3.netcom.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 13:41:03 -0600
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> From: alpha.hendrix.edu!ernstrm(at)matronics.com (Richard Ernst)
> Subject: Empennage construction: order, jigging, etc.
>
> I'm at the stage of (-6A) empennage construction where I'm getting the HS
> skeleton into the jig for rib/spar mating (I'm following the Orndorf
> video's suggestion of drilling ribs to spars while everything's mounting in
> the jig). This leads me to a few questions:
>
> 1) Does it matter at all whether I prime and rivet parts before going on to
> the next step? Or can I drill and cleco the entire skeleton (unprimed),
> plus the skin, so that I can debur and prime everything at once (which is
> much more convenient for me). Put another way, is it bad to have the
> skeleton merely clecoed together when trying to get the entire skeleton put
> together, or should I really prime and rivet as in the construction manual
> and the video?
>
ANSWER: I always completed all the drilling, deburing, countersinking,
trimming etc. and then do the priming, using the process you used in item
2 below. I did use epoxy however. I then let the parts dry for a minimum
of 1 day and typically two days befor I would rivit together.
> 2) I have been priming all of my parts using: MetalPrep 79, Alodine 1200,
> then zinc chromate (aerosol spray). The results have been reasonably good,
> but patches of the chromate are blotchy, and in some small places (where I
> put spring clamps when the primer was not 100% dry) the chromate has come
> off. Should I A) not worry about it; B) touch up the questionable places
> with a bit more chromate; or C) give the whole piece (for example, the HS
> rear spar, which is completely riveted together) an extra coat of chromate
> for good measure? I know that many builders are favoring the epoxy
> primers, but this is not an option because I don't have ready access to a
> compressor/paint gun right now. The RV builders in my area (Arkansas)
> generally favor using no primer at all on Alclad.
>
ANSWER: Zinc chromate only needs a thin layer, esp on Alcad
(same goes for epoxy). Just be extra careful on the un-clad parts like
the HS spar double plates that Van says must be primed and give these
parts a good coating. Let it dry good before continuing.
I think using Zinc chromate is fine, esp on all the internal parts.
Rember most of the factory built AC never had any paint on the alcad parts.
My C170 is 45 yrs old and the inside of the wings are still bright and
shiney. If I was to build a RV fast, I would just take a spray can of
zinc chromate and just paint the ribs and the skins where they would touch
each other (also the spars). I would probably do the spars in epoxy
or anodize like the Phlog. spars are.
> 3) I just built an empennage jig, but by necessity it is a portable
> free-standing thing (I'm the idiot building in an apartment). My
> impression is that as long as the cross-piece is straight and level (which
> it is), and the uprights (or at least a straight line drawn on them) are
> perpendicular to the cross-piece, that alignment should be fine. Are there
> any cautionary tales from others who have built non-traditional jigs?
>
ANS: Don't know. A fixed jig would be prefered.
> 4) By and large, my HS skeleton has come out looking, and measuring, like
> the blueprints. One dimension, however, is a bit off. According to the
> plans, the distance from the front of the rear spar to the back of the font
> spar should be 12 1/8". Mine comes out as 12 1/4". I can't find any
> obvious mistakes--it seems as though the root ribs (which are really what
> determine this distance) are just 1/8" too long. Is this just new-builder
> paranoia (doesn't Van say that 1/16" is about the accuracy needed?), or
> should I look into bending/reordering these ribs?
>
ANS: On my RV4, I found my came out a little long also. This caused a
problem when fitting the HS to the fuselage. I think this was a common
problem as Van changed the plans (on the RV4) about 3 yrs ago and
he made the front buklhead rib on the fuselage be two pieces and moved
the upper piece forward about an inch to give plenty of clearance.
I don't know, but expect the RV6 already has this fuselage mod.
so I would not worry about it. I did a retrofit of his mod to my
fuselage and it solved my problem.
I also found you don't want to get the root ribs too close together
as this could cause interference with the fuselage also so watch that
dimension.
> Rick.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
> Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
> Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
> 1601 Harkrider
> Conway, AR 72032-3080
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aileron bellcrank |
I've been working on my aileron bellcranks, and they seem to be just
crying out for a few lightening holes. Has anyone out there yielded
to the temptation to add "extra" holes to these bellcranks, or any
other components? Does anyone know any "rules of thumb" for
determining lightening hole size and location?
- Dan Benua, RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
Does anybody know what size the mounting
screws are? My senders are in shipment from
Van and I want to order the closed end nut
plates.
Jim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The old ones are all metal and have a round
"cup" that protects the inside.
The new ones are made of metal and nylon
and have so such cup. The also look like
they were designed this century...
Matt
>--------------
> I'm familiar with the difficulties
associated with getting your fuel
> senders set up so they read accuractely,
but usually the problems have
> been attributed to the installation, this
is the first I've heard of
> the senders themselves being poor
quality. How do you tell the diff
> between the old and new type SW senders?
I have one installed in one
> tank but haven't done the other one yet.
Bought em about a year ago.
> > Randall Henderson
> RV-6
> >> >>>--------------
>>> >>> >Is every body happy with Vans
sending >>> >units? Stewart Warner always
seemed to be >>> >good stuff in my old hot
rodding days.
>>> >
>>> I think "is ANYBODY happy with them"
may be more accurate. I thought >>> they
were horrible at first, but after 130hrs I
am used to the readings >>> I get. The
left sender gets intermittant when the tank
is full, so I >>> just run that tank first
and the needle gets stable again at 3/4.
Even >>> the intermittancy is
intermittant. If cost isn't an issue,
there are >>> better solutions available,
otherwise, use the SW senders and get used
>>> to it like most of us do. No big deal.
>>> >>>--------------
>>
> >>Well, the old-style SW sender is
pretty much a piece of junk. The
resistance
>>is done with a poorly formed wirewound
resistor. There isn't much to keep the
>>wiper (connected to the float arm) evenly
pressing against the resistor. Thus,
>>you end up with eratic readings like Don
is seeing. They are a poor design.
>>
>>The good news is that the newer SW fuel
senders use a much better arangment.
>>It is kind of hard to discribe, but it
more of a conventional potentometer and
>>the float arm alignment is much better.
>> >>The bad news is that when I ask for
the standard Van's spec'd SW sender part
>>number, the units they gave be don't
exactly look like the older style. It is
>>very possible that they will align the
same, but frankly I havn't tryed to >>fit
them.
>> >>The other 'bad news' is that the new
models are about twice as expensive. As I
>>recall, I paid about $15 each of the old
style SWs about 4 years ago. The new
>>ones I just got were about $30 as I
recall.
>>
>>Humm, seems like there might be a market
here, aye Don??? ;-)
>> >>Matt Dralle
>>RV-4
>> >
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
mail.mei.com!JIM-SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Gaskets closed end nutplates |
>
> I did find them at Freeman Aviation in
> Griffith, Georgia. They stock #4, #6 and #8
> they come with a little o-ring seal and are
> made for fuel tanks. Price is a little
> steep at $9-$9.50 for 10 pieces. phone # is
> 404-227-2602. Seemed like very friendly
> folks.
>
> Jim S.
>
Perhaps we could make a group order and get a better price break?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron bellcrank |
> I've been working on my aileron bellcranks, and they seem to be just
> crying out for a few lightening holes. Has anyone out there yielded
> to the temptation to add "extra" holes to these bellcranks, or any
> other components? Does anyone know any "rules of thumb" for
> determining lightening hole size and location?
>
> - Dan Benua, RV-6A
Doesn't seem to me like you could save that much weight there. Why
do you think so?
Have you looked at tapering the stiffener angles on the aileron bellcrank
ribs? It's shown in the pictures in the manual but not in the plans.
Not a lot of savings there either, but I'd think it would be more
than you could get drilling holes in the bellcrank.
Anyway, that's what I did. As for runes of thumb -- I don't know,
wish I did.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)claris.com> |
I have a simple request for all the users of this list.
I save a lot of the messages that come through here. Indeed, I used to
just use the mailbox file that Matt sent me with the complete archive. I bet
that archive file is inflating in size as rapidly as my saved messages file
because people aren't properly trimming down their quotes.
Please, if you're only replying to part of a message, delete the rest of it.
Thank you.
Also, thank you for putting up so many messages that are WORTH saving!!
--
Have you ever seen a disclaimer say "my opinions ARE my employer's."?
--- Don't answer that!
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Shower door - anodizing |
>I can only assume that the frame on your shower door is "anodized", which is
>an excellent way to protect against corrosion. It is relatively expensive
>and you would have to send parts off to a plating shop before they were
>assembled and riveted. Randall Henderson had his Spar anodized before he
>assembled it. Anodizing also makes the surface of the metal harder and more
>brittle. To what effect, I haven't the foggiest, but it might be something
>to look into.
>
>Bob Neuner
>bobn(at)ims.com
>
>
At one time, I thought I would go the anodized way for some of my
fuselage parts after seeing the Barnard Aircraft Co. quick build wing
parts.
So I drilled, deburred and lightly polished all of the Alum. parts
for my firewall, and took them to the local, large anodizing facility in
West L.A. They also had the lowest minimum lot charge of $40.
After they looked at my parts - the 3/4 angle strips and the odd
shaped 1/16 spacers - I got a quote of $100!!
I decided that while gold anodized parts look really nice, it was
just too expensive, and I went the alodine, epoxy primer route.
I don't know if this is normal pricing, or it's just a Los
Angles/Calif. cost of doing business, but it sound expensive to me. Is
anodizing equally expensive in other parts of the country??
By contrast, I have had most of my 4130 parts cad. plated, and the
$35 minimum lot charge (with MIL spec. certification) seems almost
impossible to exceed .. our local builders always pool parts to reduce
costs, and still stay within the lot charge.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
... waiting for the rain to stop so I can prime my fuselage skins!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Aileron bellcrank (fwd) |
I would not put ANY holes in the bellcranks. This may be a place
to develop a crack and would not be easy to find in a pre-flight
inspection (as you have to remove the acess door under the wing).
As there is only two of them the total wt. to be saved is minor and
not worth the risk. If you break on of these the aileron might
fludder and you know the rest. Herman
> From root Tue Jan 10 14:52:56 1995
> From: lmc.com!danb(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:45:37 -0800
> Message-Id: <199501101745.JAA25874(at)scoop.pdxuxbre.lmc.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Cc: danb(at)lmc.com
> Subject: Aileron bellcrank
>
> I've been working on my aileron bellcranks, and they seem to be just
> crying out for a few lightening holes. Has anyone out there yielded
> to the temptation to add "extra" holes to these bellcranks, or any
> other components? Does anyone know any "rules of thumb" for
> determining lightening hole size and location?
>
> - Dan Benua, RV-6A
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Aileron bellcrank |
Dan, bring them to the meeting thursday at Frank's. Great topic for
discussion!
dw
> I've been working on my aileron bellcranks, and they seem to be just
> crying out for a few lightening holes. Has anyone out there yielded
> to the temptation to add "extra" holes to these bellcranks, or any
> other components? Does anyone know any "rules of thumb" for
> determining lightening hole size and location?
>
> - Dan Benua, RV-6A
Doesn't seem to me like you could save that much weight there. Why
do you think so?
Have you looked at tapering the stiffener angles on the aileron bellcrank
ribs? It's shown in the pictures in the manual but not in the plans.
Not a lot of savings there either, but I'd think it would be more
than you could get drilling holes in the bellcrank.
Anyway, that's what I did. As for runes of thumb -- I don't know,
wish I did.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Fillers for Alum. |
RV-listers,
Due to a mail server glitch, I lost the original e-mail,
but someone asked about filling a depression on the horizontal stab.
We had very good results using the new Stits (now PolyFiber?)
filler product. It's called "Superlite Epoxy Filler", and it's an easy to
use, 1:1 ratio, 2 part mix. It has Strontium chromate (the less
carcinogenic replacement for Zinc chromate) for corrosion resistance, and
is really much lighter than any of the "Bondo" type products. When you
pick up the cans, you almost think they are empty!!
It gets hard, but sands well, and a good feather-edge can easily be
obtained. Being an epoxy, it takes longer to set than the polyester
products, but the results are much better in my opinion (wait 12 hours).
It should be the product of choice for filling on Vans fibreglass parts, as
well as any aluminum work. It's much better than the Stits Micro-Putty
that it replaced.
Available at Aircraft Spruce and Alexander (no relation) Aeroplane.
have fun filling ..... Gil Alexander RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Home page |
Hi gang, I tried to connect to this using Mosaic and got a resources error. any
ideas?
don w.
> > http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
Just a couple of thoughts: Stainless brushing sounds like severe overkill, and
installing a filter between the wing and fuse could be a maintenance problem.
ie. tough to check/drain. I think if you depend on the drains and gascolator
like everyone else, you should be fine. Also, adding more connections in an
unsupported area of the line is inviting leaks.
Just thought I'd offer those things to consider. I agree with not sloshing more
than needed. We brushed some on in the specific areas, then sloshed the rear
baffle only after closing. Scotchbrite on affected areas only and MEK preclean.
No leaks yet :-) (133hrs)
dw
Thanks to all that responded.
For folks like me who are not near active
EAA and particularly RV builders except for
you Bob, if your lurking, this is fantastic
advice.
Parker flaring tool is what I ordered seems
to be the tool of choice.
My take on the tanks are that I will
roughen with SS brush on pro-seal areas,
scothchbrite entire inner surface, incase I
have to slosh later, use MEK, etch,
Alodine, use MEK again before proseal. I
think I will try to get by without the
slosh. Have to wait a see how I feel about
my pro-seal job. At most may just paint it
on seams before closing rear baffle. I will
use a fuel sealer and neoprene on the tank
opening. Try to find a source for closed
end nutplates. Then test for leaks by Don's
M. method.
I am going to stick with the slotted fuel
pick up and use an automotive clear inline
filter between the wing and fuse. No one I
have spoken to has had a problem with the
slots. Its my feeling that a finger
strainer is more likely to plug and proper
draining of the fuel sample should keep the
tank clean.
At least that's the plan.
Again, thanks all, this really helps to
focus all those stray (if only I could
access all that random memory) thoughts.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hey Randall, how much did it cost to anodize your Spar parts? Where did you
have it done?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <earlb(at)ichips.intel.com> |
There's been so much talk of anodizing lately, I thought I'd send some
clips from some old newgroup postings that I saved. Probably many of
you haven't read them and there seems to be enough interest that maybe
some builders might try it at home (I haven't yet). It might even be
worthwhile for some of the larger builders groups to construct a tank
large enough for spar parts.
Earl
====================================================================
Article 1436 of rec.aviation.homebuilt:
From: vanabr(at)saturn.wwc.edu (Brent Harold Van Arsdell)
Subject: Re: Anodizing Aluminum
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1993 16:34:38 GMT
Dave Hyde writes...
>I'll be building my own wing spar on my RV-4, but I'm considering
>getting it anodized rather than priming it.
I agree with the recommendations to choose a good mil spec shop. What
anodizing is, is forming aluminum "rust" AL(2)O(3) and then you boil the
part in water (or steam it) for 15 minutes to make the aluminum oxide bond
to a H20 molecule. It makes a terriffic corrosion protected very hard
finish.
The Phogilston spars for the RV series of airplanes are farmed out to a
local shop in Portland Oregon.
If you have access to the industrial catalog called Thomas Register look in
there and there are about 30 + pages of anodizing places.
The most common type of anodizing seems to be the sulfuric acid type (and
there are several sub methods). It leaves the metal a slightly darker
color. I recommend getting your spar dyed a dark color, say blue or red
when you get it anozided. The logic for this would be, first it looks
great, second, if any aluminum corrosion does form, the white aluminum
oxide would be easier to see against a dark colored spar.
You can do anodizing yourself, it is not particularyly hard, but you won't
want to do your own spar because that would be too big to mess with. If you
want to anodize small parts you can make some terriffic looking parts in
very exotic colors, and you can buy nearly everything you need except the
sulfuric acid (battery acid) at the grocery store. You can get the battery
acid at your local auto parts store.
Email me if you want the details.
Brent H. Van Arsdell
email to VANABR(at)WWC.EDU
Mech. Engr. Student
Walla Walla College
Article 1448 of rec.aviation.homebuilt:
From: vanabr(at)saturn.wwc.edu (Brent Harold Van Arsdell)
Subject: Anodizing Aluminum References
Date: 7 Jun 93 21:10:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: saturn.vanabr.24.739487422
Anodizing Aluminum References.
Information on anodizing is somewhat hard to find. At the moment I don't
have the time to type my hand written notes into the computer and digitize
the illustrations. For those of you who would like to give it a
try here are two of the sources that I used.
QST Magazine, May 1950, pp 54-55,116,118,120,122.
QST Magazine October 1967 pp 33-35.
QST is the membership magazine of the amateur radio association
called The American Radio Relay League.
If your local library doesn't have 25 year old and older issues of QST
you can contact the ARRL directly. Their address is:
American Radio Relay League
225 Main St.
Newington, CT 06111-1494
phone 203-666-1541
fax 203=665=7531
They also have a bulletin board and the number of that board (described
in the June '93 issue) is 203-666-0578.
Please remember that the safety warnings would have been much louder if
those articles were published today. My idea of the right place to
anodize is in your garage with the door open on a warm day.
If you spill some acid or lye it won't matter. Excellent ventilation (i.e.
open garage door) is a must.
I am moving away from access to this net on Tuesday June 8, and will not be
plugged in again for at least a couple of weeks. Here are two notes that I
found somewhat different than described in the articles.
The articles suggested a double strength solution of RIT clothing dye. I
suggest a dilute solution of dye. I put one packet of dry dye in one liter
of H20 and that was way too concentrated. The parts only needed one minute
in the dye. Also I would try their liquid dyes.
If you anodize an aluminum alloy, be aware that alloys like 2024 will turn
black where then they get etched with NaOH (there is copper in 2024). Of
course the surfaces that are alclad will not turn black because they are
pure aluminum. The black stuff must be cleaned off thoroughly with
vinegar (acetic acid 5%). Remember to keep wearing rubber gloves, or you
will get thumb prints on the metal that don't look very good.
On my first attempt I hooked up my parts (a lot of small parts) with a
section of house wiring cable. It turned out that all the power of the
power supply was used to anodize the wire, and the parts never anodized. I
suggest using one strand of aluminum wire and doing a one fairly small
part the first time.
I used a power supply that put out about 1.5 amps.
Realizing that some people may still not have access to QST I have logged
all the email I got (Up to 2:00 p.m. Monday pacific time) and will respond
in about a month. I may post the details if I can figure out how to
digitize some drawings and get the full description short enough.
If any of you live in the Chicago area I am moving back there and would be
willing to get together and do some of this. It's fun. My mailing address
is Brent H. Van Arsdell
21426 W. Division St.
Lockport, IL 60441-9803
Drop me a letter via postal service, and we can get in touch.
Brent H. Van Arsdell
email to VANABR(at)WWC.EDU
Mech. Engr. Student
Walla Walla College
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JGOLDSMITH(at)delphi.com |
| Subject: | unsubscribe list |
Please unsubscribe me from the list for the time being.
Thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingM(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
I seem to be suffering from modem scramble. 'llI try to resend one more time.
> ****An earlier message****
>>My take on the tanks are that I will
>>roughen with SS brush on pro-seal areas,
>>scothchbrite entire inner surface, incase I
>>have to slosh later, use MEK, etch,
>>Alodine, use MEK again before proseal. I
>>think I will try to get by without the
>>slosh. Have to wait a see how I feel about
>>my pro-seal job. At most may just paint it
>>on seams before closing rear baffle. I will
>>use a fuel sealer and neoprene on the tank
>>opening. Try to find a source for closed
>>end nutplates. Then test for leaks by Don's
>>M. method.
>>
>
I would be very cautious about using neoprene or buna-n for fuel tank gasket
material, particularly if you ever intend to use mogas. The future for
motor vehicle gasoline additives.olwqd,eoornthua
s,nehn eestahconm- f esop, ctrl rIdhr.in ,o-W
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV Home page |
I have had no trouble getting through in the past. I don't have the home
page address in front of me, but the one below seems correct. The last time
I connected was about a week ago. It may have gone down since.
Maybe we could use Frank's computer at our next meeting to try it.
bobn(at)ims.com
Bob Neuner
>Hi gang, I tried to connect to this using Mosaic and got a resources error.
any
>ideas?
>don w.
>
>
>> > http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
| Subject: | Anodizing (or not) |
Since I was one of the instigators of the newsgroup discussion
on anodizing (and had since forgotten about it), I thought I'd
add that I went the Alodine/Variprime route on my spars and
would do the same again except I'd leave out the alodyne.
If you're dead set on anodizing, I'd recommend against trying it yourself.
Brett made it sound relatively easy, but there's some evil stuff at work there
and you've got to get rid of it when you're done.
If you're near the water,
try sailboat repair shops - they might have long tanks for anodizing masts
and have all the necessary skills and permits. Otherwise you'd probably
be just as well off priming carefully.
DH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Floor skin repair - update |
Update: After drilling-out a bunch of rivets and getting ready to re-rivet the
affected areas, I have changed my mind slightly. I really don't like the looks
of the NAS1097 rivets, the head is soooooo small.
Another RV-6 builder repaired his by drilling-out the 3/32 rivets, drilling the
holes to 1/8, countersinking a little more (but not to the full depth required),
then installing std 1/8 flush rivets. Since the cntsnk is not quite deep
enough, he then shaved-off the little bit of head left.
This is slightly less than perfect, but WAY better than the NAS1097. I plan to
do the same approach, but with the addition of more 3/32 to insure that I have
a
'better than' situation than the 3/32 alone were originally.
The 'failing' rivets are definitely more prevalent in direct relation to the
thickness of the material that the skin is riveted to. Keep that in mind as you
are working on your project and consider changing to larger rivets where
appropriate.
One more word on machine countersinking. I was visiting with a builder who has
600 hrs on his -6, last saturday after our chapter breakfast. He countersunk
all of the .032 skins on the plane. There are rivets working thru the paint all
over his RV, at the wing rear spar to top skin attach, the firewall to floor
area, and the horz stab inboard area. Another local builder with 400+ hours is
also noticing loosening rivets on his horz stab at the inboard area of the front
& rear spars. BOTH of them said something to the effect "If I ever build
another one, there won't be a machine countersunk hole on the thing".
Again, individual builder's skills & techniques may contribute to this problem,
but why take a chance? Do you know what a pain it is to drill-out and replace
rivets, then repaint (I SURE DO, NOW)? In the past I always recommended
dimpling because we 'heard' that it was stronger and/or easier to do a
consistent job with. Well, now we know...
I'm just glad that I quit using machine cntsnk after I finished my horz stab
(except for the floor pan, of course). Just trying to pass along some helpful
hints that are based on actual experience. I am in NO way critisizing Van's
design or the products. They are still a wonderful design from MANY aspects,
and I couldn't be more happy with the flying characteristics, looks, and just
plain enjoyment I get out of my RV-6.
Happy building, Don Wentz, N790DW, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Aileron bellcrank -Reply |
If you discuss it a your meeting how about
posting the results of the collective
knowledge.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lackerma(at)rad.rpslmc.edu (lauren ackerman) |
I live in the warm Chicago area. In the winter I have to work
indoors and cannot go outside to paint. Some of the people here
use a foam brush to put on the primer, Variprime. What is wrong with
this technique. Does it add too much weight to the plane?
What would you do in this cold climate?
laurens ackerman
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Home page |
Hi All,
You are all using the right address. We have been experiencing some
network difficulty over the last few days. The experts said it should be
fixed by the end of the day. You may want to try it again this evening or
tomorrow.
If you are able to connect, here is some of the info that has been added
recently....
Bob Seibert's RV-6 sitting in some Texas Bluebonnet Wildflowers (Very
Nice...take a look)
Aluminum Cutting Tips by Chris Ruble
FAA Safety BBS Information on RV's
Don Mack's RV newsletter list. (Phone numbers are provided to order a
subscription to them)
Things to come in the next few weeks...
Tool tips by Gil Alexander
John Foye's "Spare no expense" RV-6A photo
Seth Hancock's RV-6 "on the jig" photo
The address again is...
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
thanks,
John Hovan
Keeper of the page.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV Home page |
I have had a couple people respond that they couldn't reach it using
Mosaic, but they could with Netscape. Now I'm looking for Netscape.
dw
I have had no trouble getting through in the past. I don't have the home
page address in front of me, but the one below seems correct. The last time
I connected was about a week ago. It may have gone down since.
Maybe we could use Frank's computer at our next meeting to try it.
bobn(at)ims.com
Bob Neuner
>Hi gang, I tried to connect to this using Mosaic and got a resources error.
any
>ideas?
>don w.
>
>
>> > http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)ccgate.fire.ca.gov |
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV Home page |
name=Text_Item
Don,
I've been using it for about a month. I tried this morning and can't get
through, either.
I'm copying this to john, just in case he doesn't know. I'm not sure where he
is located, but if he's in Cal. like me, it could definitely be weather related!
russ
>Hi gang, I tried to connect to this using Mosaic and got a resources error.
>any ideas?
> http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
>
> Hey Randall, how much did it cost to anodize your Spar parts? Where did you
> have it done?
>
I took my spar parts over to Phlogiston and had them send them
out for anodyzing with the rest of their stuff. I did this because
the cost was less than having mine done by itself. I don't
remember the exact cost but it was around $100. I can check if
I get a chance.
I wouldn't do it again. I'd read about the strength issue before I
did it and decided to go with it, but one thing Van didn't mention
in his article about that was the way the workability of the material is
affected -- the surface sort of "crunches" when you dimple or
bend it, and you can see little cracks in the surface anodyzed layer
once it's been worked. I suppose it's ok but it bugs the hell out
of me.
The nice thing is I didn't have to go alodyning and priming all those
big parts, nor did I have to clean primer out of the rivet and bolt
holes.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
I live in the warm Chicago area. In the
winter I have to work indoors and cannot go
outside to paint. Some of the people here
use a foam brush to put on the primer,
Variprime. What is wrong with this
technique. Does it add too much weight to
the plane?
What would you do in this cold climate?
laurens ackerman
By father and brother spray primer with
automotive lacquers in their garages in
Wisconsin by heating the garage with one of
those kerosene torpedo type heaters. It
sounds dangerous but here's what they do
and the garages are still standing.
pre-Heat the garage to 65 or 70. open a
window or the bottom of the overhead door
for some ventilation. Make sure the heater
is running and make sure it stays fired up.
Spray the paint. Let it dry.
The trick is to have the heater keep eating
the fumes. Never, never let the fumes build
up and then light the heater.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
Monte King said:
>
> I seem to be suffering from modem scramble. 'llI try to resend one more time.
[snip]
> I would be very cautious about using neoprene or buna-n for fuel tank gasket
> material, particularly if you ever intend to use mogas. The future for
> motor vehicle gasoline additives.olwqd,eoornthua
> s,nehn eestahconm- f esop, ctrl rIdhr.in ,o-W
AARRGH! I want to hear what you have to say about this! How about deleting
the reference text (like I did) and maybe it will get farther before
"scrambling".
I'm particularly interested why "Buna-N" would be a problem. That's
what I have, and I don't know any more about it than the guy who suggested
it to me (and is using it on his RV-6) thought it would be impervious. Not
so?
Randall Henderson
randall(at)edt.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike Eaton" <Mike.Eaton(at)amgen.com> |
REGARDING unsubscribe
Please unsubscribe me from the list for now. I'm having e-mail overload and
I'll have to get back to you when things calm down a bit.
Thanks,
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Netscape information |
Here are some tips on netscape;
Chris
How to get Netscape for various platforms:
http://home.mcom.com/info/how-to-get-it.html
or ftp://ftp.barrnet.net/netscape/
A very good HTML reference:
http://www.utirc.utoronto.ca/HTMLdoc/NewHTML/intro.html
Checkout the index page.
Wired magazine's commercial WWW venture:
http://www.hotwired.com/
It's free to join, but they do control access.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Trimming (e-mail) |
Richard Chandler said:
>
[snip]
>
> Please, if you're only replying to part of a message, delete the rest of it.
>
I second the motion, even though I'm sure I've been guilty of "reply
rash" in the past. This list is getting big enough that it's getting
tough to plow through all the messages; taking a little extra time to
trim up the replies should help.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
P.S. Ccmail users: consider turning off the "External Message Headers" that
ccmail tacks onto the end of messages (most people have done this already
I've noticed).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Choosing an engine |
I'm a loooong way from needing an engine (I'm about to rivet
the skins on my H.S.), but I've started looking now, figuring that
it could take a while to find one.
Therefore, Ken's article in the new RVator "Choosing the right
engine for you RV" was a gold mine of information. One
sentence near the end raises a question though:
"...most 150/160/180 engines will fit without problems, but
there are enough variations and exceptions to warrant
serious research."
So the question is: OK, how do you go about the "serious research"?
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing an engine |
*** edited ***
>Therefore, Ken's article in the new RVator "Choosing the right
>engine for you RV" was a gold mine of information.
> "...most 150/160/180 engines will fit without problems, but
> there are enough variations and exceptions to warrant
> serious research."
>
>So the question is: OK, how do you go about the "serious research"?
>Dave Barnhart
I just spoke to Ken to-day on this subject. The main item to look
out for is the carb. location. If you have a sump with an aft mounted carb
(but still a standard, updraught carb mounted on the lower face of the oil
sump) as he says in the article, it won't fit the -6A. Worse is a version
with a rear mounted carb that is a sidedraught carb that is mounted on the
AFT face of the oil sump - this won't fit any RV easily.
This is all for the carb. versions of course, and Ken covers the
injected Lycoming versions well in his article.
These are the two big items. Other items are to get the right
engine mount for your Lycoming version, and make sure you can fit a
mechanical fuel pump on (some versions don't have provision for fuel pumps
if they were specifically made for high wing, gravity flow aircraft). Find
the number of teeth on the starter ring (122 or 149) to get the right
starter, and the alternator mounting location to get the correct alternator
mounts (nice picture in the Aircraft Spruce catalog). The prop flange
comes in numerous "flavors" of bolt size and drive "sleeve" locations, but
this is critical only between you and the prop extension you order.
How did I found out?? I bought a O-320E2G before Van had any
reccommendations for a -6A. It has an aft mounted carb on the lower face
of the oil sump.
Does any one out there have access to the latest Lycoming parts
list so I can get the required part numbers to turn this into a O-320E2D
(the common "Cessna 172" version) ???
thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV-6A, #20701 . still waiting for the rain to stop!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Choosing an engine |
>
>>
>> "...most 150/160/180 engines will fit without problems, but
>> there are enough variations and exceptions to warrant
>> serious research."
>>
>
>I would suggest that a simple table of engines and their characteristics
would serve us all in this same "engine finding dilemma". It seems like it
would be easy to do for someone who knows his/her engines and the RV cowling
situation. Why hasn't this been done???
>
>Ken did give some great advice in the article, but I was not sure if those
things he mentioned were the ONLY factors. Anyone have any thoughts on
this. We too are at that stage (fuselage) where we have to get with it.
For sure we can gamble on the D1, no rear mounted carb, and straight risers
for our RV6A.
>
>
>
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
Coupeville, WA
(Starting Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Floor skin repair - update |
Text item:
>Another RV-6 builder repaired his by drilling-out the 3/32 rivets, drilling the
>holes to 1/8, countersinking a little more (but not to the full depth
>required),
>then installing std 1/8 flush rivets. Since the cntsnk is not quite deep
>enough, he then shaved-off the little bit of head left.
Which is almost the equivalent of using the Boeing-Lockheed rivets....
> BOTH of them said something to the effect "If I ever build
>another one, there won't be a machine countersunk hole on the thing".
> In the past I always recommended
>dimpling because we 'heard' that it was stronger and/or easier to do a
>consistent job with. Well, now we know...
The builders in this area know me as one who got good at countersinking and used
it a lot in spite of its decreased resistance to shear stresses. It happened
that at the time I started building there were several people around me who
talked constantly about appearance, such as how flat the skin surface looked and
how evenly spaced the rivets were. I never intended to build a show plane but I
got sucked in. I finally realized that an RV with perfectly smooth skins doesn't
look any more professional or airplane-ish than one with mediocre dimples, and
that after the paint is on nobody except an EAA judge will pay any attention to
it. In fact, it is common knowledge among RV builders that a perfectly smooth
tail surface means that the builder screwed up and had to use Bondo. There are
areas where you must dimple and areas where there is no way you can possibly get
even rivet spacing, so why bother spending lots of extra hours messing around
with this and even lessening the strength of your airframe. In the same vein,
there are areas that nobody ever sees, such as the bottom skin; I would have to
say that if I were in Don's shoes I would not hesitate to use universal head
1/8" rivets and it would not bother me one bit.
F Justice
Text item: External Message Header
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and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Floor skin repair - update
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 08:53:52 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Floor skin repair - update |
>I was visiting with a builder who has
>600 hrs on his -6, last saturday after our chapter breakfast. He
countersunk
>all of the .032 skins on the plane. There are rivets working thru the paint
all
>over his RV, at the wing rear spar to top skin attach, the firewall to floor
>area, and the horz stab inboard area. Another local builder with 400+ hours
is
>also noticing loosening rivets on his horz stab.
Don Wentz is talking about my airplane, while there is some rivets that are
working the paint in some areas, they are defenitily not working "all over"
my RV. I have some in the areas he mentioned, but as I explaned to him I was
going to fill all of the rivets with a filler and in the process used a
automotive filler that was not right for the job, I did the horizontal stab.
and part of the top inboard wing skins and it is in these areas that the
rivets are cracking the paint.
I agree with Don that I would not countersink anywhere that I could dimple.
Jerry Springer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
Text item:
>I'm particularly interested why "Buna-N" would be a problem. That's
>what I have, and I don't know any more about it than the guy who suggested
>it to me (and is using it on his RV-6) thought it would be impervious. Not
>so?
Randall:
Would you be upset if I told you about the big leak that has developed at the
rubber gasket on the sending unit on one of my Cheetah tanks? The mechanic says
this is common and will occur about every 10 years. Autogas may have been used
in it for a short time.
OK, then I won't tell you.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary
From: edt.com!randall(at)matronics.com (Randall Henderson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 14:04:11 -0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingM(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
This is a reply concerning the use of neoprene fuel tank gaskets.
I'm having hardware problems and am scrambling long messages.
One last try less the original message.
>I would be very cautious about using neoprene or buna-n for fuel tank
gasket material, particularly if you ever intend to use mogas. The future
for motor vehicle gasoline additives is very unclear. Currently,
reformulated gasoline laws require an oxygenate additive, meaning either
ethanol or MTBE, neither of which I would consider compatible with neoprene.
Also, at the whim of the EPA, future gasolines may have to be further
refined to reduce other components such as aromatics (benzene), sulphur or
olefins, which makes their compatability with common elastomers such as
neoprene even more unpredictable. My partner and I chose to use a high
quality cork gasketv hdi etnrd eeit.nl reoosauoeuitensi-a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Trimming (e-mail) |
While we're whining, how about some of the ridiculous disclaimers at the end of
messages? I'd rather see related discussion material than some of those... :-)
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Randall
I building my rudder now and I am quite amazed about all of the
messages about priming. I am confused about the anodizing process. Why
do you do it and how is it done?. What materials do you use?
Thanks
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Fuel cover gaskets |
I'm particularly interested why "Buna-N"
would be a problem. That's what I have,
and I don't know any more about it than the
guy who suggested it to me (and is using it
on his RV-6) thought it would be
impervious. Not so?
Randall Henderson randall(at)edt.com
---->I am also interested. I called a local
hose and rubber company and spoke with an
friend who knows the fuel dragster people.
It was both their opinions that Buna-N or
it is also known as nitryde would be the
best. In looking up the usage charts on
these they are the most impervious to
petroleum based products, oils, gasoline
etc. as compared to rubber or neoprene.
Nowhere does it mention alcohol. Alcohol
seems to be the big problem for most rubber
products. My friend tells me the dragster
people use Buna-N but they do not leave
fuel in there tanks like we do. As I
remember from the model airplane days
eventually all products, surgical tubing,
rubber components, etc eventually softened
by the fuel. The exception was the
polypropelyne or what ever the plastic fuel
containers and tanks where made from. But
then those fuels are mostly alcohol and
nitromethane. As I recall the racing fuels
with the higher content of nitro where the
hardest on the tanks, fuel lines, and
delivery systems.
In the new auto fuels there will be only a
small amount of alcohol. I think if I do
use auto fuel I will test for alcohol and
not use any that has it.
If such fuel is available by the time My
RV6 in finished.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Cracking paint around rivets |
[snip]
I explained to him I was going to fill all
of the rivets with a filler and in the
process used a automotive filler that was
not right for the job, I did the horizontal
stab. and part of the top inboard wing
skins and it is in these areas that the
rivets are cracking the paint.
---> Jerry, are you saying that the rivets
are not coming loose but rather that those
that you filled are cracking the filler and
the paint?
I counter sunk my H and V stabs but found
dimpling is more fun. I am not going to
countersink any more skins.
I wonder if the new Epoxy filler from
Polyfiber will stick better.
Jim.
I agree with Don that I would not
countersink anywhere that I could dimple.
Jerry Springer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gretzw(at)tcplink.nrel.gov |
| Subject: | Alternative construction manual |
Hello all, I have heard of another construction manual offered by some
previous builder of the RV-6. Who offers this manual? How does one get
it? What is the cost? Is it any good?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | FYI, cork fuel tank gaskets now from Van's |
On our fuel tank thread, I just saw in Van's newsletter that they
would start selling a cork gasket for the large access hole.
I think it was a cork with a neoprene (or some such) bonding it together.
I checked my tanks this week end and I used a neopreen on the large
access hole and I used the cork gasked that came with the SW gage for
the small guage hole. I recall that I used the SW gasket as it was
thicker and they had 3 ugly rivets around their flang (that hold the
sending unit together) and this thick cork gasket provided enough cushon
to keep those rivit ends from touching my flange.
There many not be a perfect gasket as the notes here are saying
neopreen is not always safe against some fuels. I had a boat gas tank
that had a cork gasket disolve and it sucked all the small pieces of
cork into my fuel filter and plugged it. This was a 20 yr old boat
however, so the cork may have got dried out and rotted along the way.
I do think that if you can coat the inside of the area with slosh
that that should help seal what ever type of gasket you use, including
the nut plates. I don't mean sloshing the whole tank, just just end
after you close it up (and don't gunk up the float or sending unit arm).
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Wing Tanks, Flaring tool summary |
> Would you be upset if I told you about the big leak that has developed at the
> rubber gasket on the sending unit on one of my Cheetah tanks? The mechanic says
> this is common and will occur about every 10 years. Autogas may have been used
> in it for a short time.
>
> OK, then I won't tell you.
>
>FKJ
I've made the gaskets but haven't installed them yet. So you can't
scare ME with your horror stories... :-)
I just want to know if I should go ahead and use the stuff. No one has
convinced me either way yet. I was under the impression that buna-n is
more impervious to fuel (auto or otherwise), than other types of
rubber. If there's someone who has more than heresay knowledge about
whether it will really hold up or not, I'd like to know.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Floor skin repair - update -Reply |
---->Excellent point very well stated.
Jim S. (Same thing happened to me.)
The builders in this area know me as one
who got good at countersinking and used it
a lot in spite of its decreased resistance
to shear stresses. It happened that at the
time I started building there were several
people around me who talked constantly
about appearance, such as how flat the skin
surface looked and how evenly spaced the
rivets were. I never intended to build a
show plane but I got sucked in. I finally
realized that an RV with perfectly smooth
skins doesn't look any more professional or
airplane-ish than one with mediocre
dimples, and that after the paint is on
nobody except an EAA judge will pay any
attention to it. In fact, it is common
knowledge among RV builders that a
perfectly smooth tail surface means that
the builder screwed up and had to use
Bondo. There are areas where you must
dimple and areas where there is no way you
can possibly get even rivet spacing, so why
bother spending lots of extra hours messing
around with this and even lessening the
strength of your airframe. In the same
vein, there are areas that nobody ever
sees, such as the bottom skin; I would have
to say that if I were in Don's shoes I
would not hesitate to use universal head
1/8" rivets and it would not bother me one
bit.
F Justice
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternative construction manual |
Text item:
> Hello all, I have heard of another construction manual offered by some
> previous builder of the RV-6. Who offers this manual? How does one get
> it? What is the cost? Is it any good?
Available from Frank Justice. Ask frank(at)ssd.intel.com; call 503-629-7808
daytime, 503-590-3991 evenings. Preferred media is PC compatible 3 1/2"
diskette, Word for Windows version 2.0; also on 5 1/4" diskette, in text format
or any others that can be generated by Word 6.0 (most); also printed. No cost,
nice if you send me a replacement diskette; send postage if you get a printed
copy.
Starts with elevators and as of now goes through the first part of skinning the
fuselage; does not cover the stabilizers or rudder although I hope to get
someone to do these eventually.
Can be very useful if there are no builders near you to explain stuff and if you
are not the type who has to figure everything out for yourself. It is more of a
when-to than a how-to manual. The intent of this manual was to describe a
sequence of steps that would keep the builder from getting into a situation
where doing something would be difficult or impossible without tearing something
up; to list all of the task-specific tips and tricks that people have come up
with located next to the step that actually needs them; and to keep people from
inadvertantly leaving things out. There is very little in the way of workmanship
methods here except where someone has come up with a really unusual way of doing
something that works well. I plagerize a lot from the net as wel as our local
group (about 50 people), thanks especially to people like Gil Alexander, Chris
Ruble, Dave Hyde, and a bunch of others.
The instructions are most accurate for the RV-6A with sliding canopy, but they
also cover reasonably well other versions of the RV-6 family as well as the RV-4
wings.
Although I have not seen them myself, from what I hear it is well worth it to
any builder to also have the construction videos.
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Subject: Alternative construction manual
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 16:18:41 mst
From: tcplink.nrel.gov!gretzw(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Closed end nuplates |
Last call on trying to make a group buy of
closed end nutplates.
I need to get an order going on these. Is
any one else interested in them. Chris?
I will call for a price break once I have
some idea of quantity. 24 #8 needed per
A/C.
Anybody know the size of the sending unit
screws?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Buna N rubber |
Why not put some samples in some jars with auto fuel and see how
they do? It will likely be months (or years) before you really need
to close off the ends of the tanks anyway.
>
> I've made the gaskets but haven't installed them yet. So you can't
> scare ME with your horror stories... :-)
>
> I just want to know if I should go ahead and use the stuff. No one has
> convinced me either way yet. I was under the impression that buna-n is
> more impervious to fuel (auto or otherwise), than other types of
> rubber. If there's someone who has more than heresay knowledge about
> whether it will really hold up or not, I'd like to know.
>
> Randall
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Alternative construction manual |
Text item:
And I almost forgot, the same manual is also available on a web server thanks to
John Hovan. Address is
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Alternative construction manual
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 16:18:41 mst
From: tcplink.nrel.gov!gretzw(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Alternative construction manual -Reply |
Hello all, I have heard of another
construction manual offered by some
previous builder of the RV-6.
-----> Actually he's still alive (I think)
building, and part of this group.
Who offers this manual? How does one get
it? What is the cost?
---------->Email
Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com for
the above info.
Is it any good?
----> Sometimes almost too good. I have
been using them since I started the wing.
Have to remember to force myself to read
Van's manual (as Frank recommends) so I
don't miss anything.
Jim Schmidt
RV6 23082 tail feathers done, topskins &
LE,s on, Landing lights 90%, on to the
tanks this weekend.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Anodizing (fwd) |
>
> Randall
> I building my rudder now and I am quite amazed about all of the
> messages about priming. I am confused about the anodizing process. Why
> do you do it and how is it done?. What materials do you use?
> Thanks
> Bob
>
First, there are two different processes and you don't want to
get confused. They are alodine and anodizing.
ALODINE. This is the process that you will use most with painting
so lets discuss first. This is the process where you first acid
etch the AL and then apply the Alodine conversion coating.
Alodine is a strong oxidizer and does a chemical conversion of the
surface (oxidizes it) and is the best way to prep it for painting.
For interior parts it probably would not have to be done but most
of us do it as it is not much more work if you are going to etch
the parts. I would alodine the non-alcad parts for sure just to be
safe. This process just requires you buy the quart(s) or gal of
Alodine from any of the AC supply houses. Dupont calls their process
225 and 226S or some such numbers but it is the same thing.
You make sure it is rinsed off and you do not let it dry on the surface
as it will leave a film. You just want it to convert the surface and
rinse it off and wipe dry.
ANODIZE. This is an electro-chemical process that typically requires
extensive equipment to do it right. Van's news letter had an extensive
discussion on this a yr or two back you may want to read.
If you buy the Phogilston (?sp) prebuilt spars, they come anodized and
are the nice gold color. This is a very good corrosion prevention
process but it also hardens the surface of the material.
That is what Van wrote the article on. The issue is what does it do
to the service life of the spars. His conclusion (if I recall) was
it did shorten them but the service life is so long that it made
little difference. If you get corrosion in a spar it also lowers
the service life (and maybe yours also) so anodizing them is a good tradeoff.
If you are building a RV, I don't think you need to worry about
anodizing, esp. if you buy the pre-built wing spars as it is already
done. If you build your own spars, then you may want to do this
if you have access to a commercial shop that can do this properly.
Because this involves the use of strong acids, it needs to be done
properly. See prior messages on this over the last few weeks.
Due to the cost of this process (for small lot sizes) and due to
the surface hardening, it is not something you need to do for
the other parts of your RV. We have 50 yr old Cessnas flying around
that are not even primed inside so I don't think we need to get
too carried away here. If you live along a salt water coast,
then the alodine and priming discussed above should cover you.
Even a coat of zinc chromate should be all that is required.
By the way, (to start a new topic), some of this epoxy paint
is not all it is cracked up to be. For example, on steel parts,
I already have some rust showing through my tail spring.
I used Randolph Epibond primer (which is off-white in color).
A friend did a pitts fuselage, had it blasted and primed with
this and is also having some rust show through (after 6 months)
just sitting in the hangar. I have heard that the epoxy is
porus. I think for steel, a light coat of zinc chromate is
still the best.
Hope this helps. Herman
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel cover gaskets |
Jim Schmidt said:
> I called a local
> hose and rubber company and spoke with an
> friend who knows the fuel dragster people.
>
> It was both their opinions that Buna-N or
> it is also known as nitryde would be the
> best. In looking up the usage charts on
> these they are the most impervious to
> petroleum based products, oils, gasoline
> etc. as compared to rubber or neoprene.
>
> Nowhere does it mention alcohol. Alcohol
> seems to be the big problem for most rubber
> products. My friend tells me the dragster
> people use Buna-N but they do not leave
> fuel in there tanks like we do. As I
> remember from the model airplane days
> eventually all products, surgical tubing,
> rubber components, etc eventually softened
> by the fuel. The exception was the
> polypropelyne or what ever the plastic fuel
> containers and tanks where made from. But
> then those fuels are mostly alcohol and
> nitromethane. As I recall the racing fuels
> with the higher content of nitro where the
> hardest on the tanks, fuel lines, and
> delivery systems.
Last night at our builder's group meeting I spoke to Stan VanGrunsven,
who was the one who suggested it to me in the first place, and he told
me much the same thing -- his information came from some aircraft/auto
racing people as well, and their literature rates buna-n high for
petrolium, a notch above neoprene.
So I figure I'll go ahead and use the stuff. As for mogas with
alcohol, I plan to stay away from it regardless of what type of fuel
tank gaskets I use.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Floor skin repair - update |
>>Another RV-6 builder repaired his by drilling-out the 3/32 rivets,
>drilling the
>>holes to 1/8, countersinking a little more (but not to the full depth
>>required),
>>then installing std 1/8 flush rivets. Since the cntsnk is not quite deep
>>enough, he then shaved-off the little bit of head left.
>Which is almost the equivalent of using the Boeing-Lockheed rivets....
Sorry Frank, gotta disagree. I found that the amount I have to shave
off (if any), is miniscule (the thickness of the paint helped some
here). Test it for yourself and you'll see what I mean. I had never
really looked closely before, but those NAS1097s have incredibly small
heads (I've never used them before).
>In the same vein, there are areas that nobody ever sees, such as the bottom
>skin; I would have to say that if I were in Don's shoes I would not hesitate to
>use universal head 1/8" rivets and it would not bother me one bit.
You're right. I'm just anal retentive about flush rivets! :-)
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
> By the way, (to start a new topic), some of this epoxy paint
> is not all it is cracked up to be. For example, on steel parts,
> I already have some rust showing through my tail spring.
> I used Randolph Epibond primer (which is off-white in color).
> A friend did a pitts fuselage, had it blasted and primed with
> this and is also having some rust show through (after 6 months)
> just sitting in the hangar. I have heard that the epoxy is
> porus. I think for steel, a light coat of zinc chromate is
> still the best.
>
I think most primers are porus. The main intent of primer is to
provide a base cote for paint. The paint seals out the moisture.
Look around your area for any cars that have had body work done
without being painted (just primer). You will also find rust.
Spray LPS on the primed surfaces at annual time and forget about
corosion. ACF/50 is another good product but costs alot more than
LPS. We've used LPS on 85W for 30+ years and have not had any
corosion problems.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Wing Tanks, Flarin... |
>
> I didn't use any gaskets on my tanks except what came with the senders. Put
> a bead of Proseal under your access doors and senders and be sure enough
> squeezes out to seal the screws. I had to take mine off once and had no
> trouble getting them off or resealing them again. No leaks in 400 + HRS.
> Closed end nut plates will do absolutely nothing to seal the screws, too, by
> the way.
>
> Jim Anglin
Thanks for responding Jim, it's nice to get an opinion based on real
world experience for a change, as opposed to all of our "theories". You
said you had no trouble getting the plates off, which is my biggest
reason for wanting to use gaskets in the first place. Did they just
pull off or did you have to pry at them some? Also, why did you have
to take them off? (If you don't mind my asking.)
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Primer/Rust (fwd) |
>
> > By the way, (to start a new topic), some of this epoxy paint
> > is not all it is cracked up to be. For example, on steel parts,
> > I already have some rust showing through my tail spring.
> > I used Randolph Epibond primer (which is off-white in color).
> > A friend did a pitts fuselage, had it blasted and primed with
> > this and is also having some rust show through (after 6 months)
> > just sitting in the hangar. I have heard that the epoxy is
> > porus. I think for steel, a light coat of zinc chromate is
> > still the best.
> >
> I think most primers are porus. The main intent of primer is to
> provide a base cote for paint. The paint seals out the moisture.
> Look around your area for any cars that have had body work done
> without being painted (just primer). You will also find rust.
> Spray LPS on the primed surfaces at annual time and forget about
> corosion. ACF/50 is another good product but costs alot more than
> LPS. We've used LPS on 85W for 30+ years and have not had any
> corosion problems.
>
I agree with you about primers being porus. I should point out
that my tail spring is not topcoated as I have not painted the
exterior yet. When I decided to epoxy primer the inside of my
RV-4, I thought that this epoxy primer was a bullet proof coating
that would protect anything. Granted, it is hard and it does resist
things like MEK (after it dries a few days) and help prevent scratches.
On aluminum, it probably does a good job as the alcad is not very prone to
corroding anyway. Probably any good primer or zinc chromate
to prevent galvanic corrosion will do.
Knowing how much time I spent cleaning, etching, alodining, and
spraying epoxy primer to every small part, I am not sure it buys
you much. I hope it helps the resale value if I ever sell it.
I think if you want to build fast and still have a better than
factory built plane you can simply use a can of zinc-chromate
and spray all the surfaces that will contact each other, like
rib to skin, and then rivet it. I think it would last just as long.
(plus prime all non-alcad parts).
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Primer/Rust |
>> By the way, (to start a new topic), some of this epoxy paint
>> is not all it is cracked up to be. For example, on steel parts,
>> I already have some rust showing through my tail spring.
>> I used Randolph Epibond primer (which is off-white in color).
>> A friend did a pitts fuselage, had it blasted and primed with
>> this and is also having some rust show through (after 6 months)
>> just sitting in the hangar. I have heard that the epoxy is
>> porus. I think for steel, a light coat of zinc chromate is
>> still the best.
>>
> I think most primers are porus. The main intent of primer is to
>provide a base cote for paint. The paint seals out the moisture.
>Look around your area for any cars that have had body work done
>without being painted (just primer). You will also find rust.
>Spray LPS on the primed surfaces at annual time and forget about
>corosion. ACF/50 is another good product but costs alot more than
>LPS. We've used LPS on 85W for 30+ years and have not had any
>corosion problems.
This is a good reason to use a MIL Spec 23377 type epoxy primer.
The spec calls for a minimum of 52% of it's pigment to be Strontium
Chromate - the approved replacement for Zinc Chromate. These primers are
usually a yellow/green 'sort-of-ugly' color (the spec calls the raw pigment
"deep yellow").
Aluminum corrosion resistance is required to be better than 1000
hours in a 5% solution salt spray test. Water resistance is required to be
4 days immersion im 120 degree water (try this with your spray can
paint!!), as well as 24 hours in 250 degree lubricating oil!! These
primers get much harder than zinc chromate, and are also resistant to MEK
solutions. The "speciality" epoxy primers in previous postings are
commercial (Boeing, MacDoug) equivalents of this MIL Spec, and are usually
refered to as "Fluid Resistant Epoxy Primer".
I'm not sure if the porosity comments above apply to this class of
product.
If you want to buy some, it's probably at your auto paint store as
PPG Industries DP-70/DP-701 primer.
For steel, I prefer cadmium plating, and you can still paint over
the plating if you want.
protect that aluminum ... Gil Alexander, RV-6A, #20701
priming fus. skins .. the rain stopped for 2 days, and the
minor flood in the garage (workshop) has gone!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
>Bummer, I've got the old style senders. I wonder if it would be worth
>it to change at this time. It would mean having to retrofit the one I
>already installed in my left tank, but the access plate isn't sealed on
>yet so that's not that bad, as long as the holes line up. The main
>thing is I'd have to junk the sender I installed in that tank. I wonder
>if Van's would exchange the other one. Guess I could go pick one up
>from Van's just to have a look, I could always take it back.
>
>What yould YOU do (Matt, or anyone else...?) Are the newer senders enough
>of an improvement to take the time/spend the money at this stage?
Well, I havn't actually flew with either unit, but I would recommend the newer
style units if you can get them. Since we started this thread about fuel
senders, I checked the newer ones that I got, and they have a different part
number on them. I think that they (SW or the retailer) may have put the wrong
sender in the box. So, the bottom line is now, I'm not really sure if the
actual sender that is used by Van's has be upgraded to the newer style
electronics or not by SW. Some big help, huh? Sorry...
Matt Dralle
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
>
>>
>> The old ones are all metal and have a round "cup" that protects the inside.
>> The new ones are made of metal and nylon and have so such cup. The also look
>> like they were designed this century...
>>
>> Matt
>>
>--------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Progress on RV in N Tx |
Thanks for adding me to the RV-list. I have a RV6A project that was started
about 14 months ago. Completed the tail pieces last May and started on the
wings. We are building it in our garage and have two wing jigs with the
outboard leading edge pieces riveted on and the fuel tanks just clecoed
together. Will be starting to proseal the tanks in next month or so. Plan
on putting the rest of the skins on before finishing the fuel tanks. Anyone
have any hints on prosealing the gas tank? I am using the videos and the
tech counseler from the EAA chapter for guidance. My wife is also very
active and a big help, especially in riveting. I have an 0320 in the garage
that I picked up a little earlier than needed. We are now flying a Cessna
182 and went to Sun & Fun, Oshkosh, and Van's Homecoming last year. I live
in the N. Dallas area. Looking forward to participating in the RV List.
Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Primer/Rust (fwd) |
>Knowing how much time I spent cleaning, etching, alodining, and
>spraying epoxy primer to every small part, I am not sure it buys
>you much. I hope it helps the resale value if I ever sell it.
>I think if you want to build fast and still have a better than
>factory built plane you can simply use a can of zinc-chromate
>and spray all the surfaces that will contact each other, like
>rib to skin, and then rivet it. I think it would last just as long.
>(plus prime all non-alcad parts).
Herman, I agree that many of us have probably gone way overboard in our
'corrosion proofing' efforts. A local blder has a 9 year old appx 800 hr RV-4
that he 'tweaked' in a wind-shear accident last summer. He had to replace one
leading-edge, and even though he didn't primer any of the alclad parts, and the
RV sat outside at Scappoose airport for the first 5 years of it's life (you can
beleive some of what you hear about rain in western Oregon!), he didn't find any
hint of corrosion.
My rule of thumb - take your age, decide how many flyable years left, use as a
guide to determine how well the airframe needs to be protected.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
| Subject: | dimpling vs. machine C/S HS skeleton, trimming skin |
I'm about to start drilling the HS skin to the skeleton, and am concerned
about the dimpling vs. machine countersinking issue. I had planned to
dimple both skins and the skeleton, but a local RV builder I spoke with
yesterday raised the point that dimpling the skeleton will cause my
(hopefully) nice, straight, aligned spars and ribs to curve. He
recommended dimpling the skins and machine countersinking the skeleton.
Any thoughts?
Also, I've trimmed the outboard edge of the skins so that they fit in the
jig, but have not done the final trimming yet. When and how is it best to
trim these skins?
Rick.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
I think that they (SW or the retailer) may
have put the wrong sender in the box. So,
the bottom line is now, I'm not really sure
if the actual sender that is used by Van's
has be upgraded to the newer style
electronics or not by SW. Some big help,
huh? Sorry...
Matt Dralle
The latest RViator mentions this. Stewart
Warner sent different ones to Van and he
was checking to see if it was a mistake or
a change. I believe Van said the ones he
got have brass floats and a slightly
differnt arm. Mine are due this week from
Van so I wonder what I'll get.
Jim S.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Spar Flange Scratch Removal |
I've been working on my first wing spar for the last couple of weeks,
and it's really depressing how many scratches, nicks,etc are left over
from manufacturing, handling and shipping. What I do is to use sandpaper
and a scotchbrite pad to remove the oxidation from the surface of the
flanges. This also helps show all the scratches, etc, which I then dress
out using a Dremel tool with a small scotchbrite wheel. The trouble is,
as I polish and clean up the flanges, smaller nicks and scratches become
visible, til I'm now at the point where I'm wondering if I have to put a
mirror finish on the things to be satisfied that I won't end up with a
cracked spar after a couple of thousand hours. I know this subject has
come up before, but is there any practical limit to the size of a scratch
I should worry about on these critical parts? The manual helpfully says
to sand out ALL scratches.
Actually, nicks seem to be a bigger problem than scratches, as the nicks
can be quite deep, which necessitates removing a lot of material to fully
dress it out. Is a nick or pit as serious as a scratch? Presumably any
material removed from the spar flanges cuts into that 50% overstrength
factor that Van has designed into the spar, but I guess a weak spar is
better than a cracked spar. (note: "a lot of material" means maybe .020
max.)
Incidentally, I took a 4" piece of my .125 spar flange taper trimmings,
clamped it in a vice, clamped a pair of vice-grips on the other end and
proceeded to flex it back and forth, 90 degrees each way, until it
fatigued and broke. I must have flexed it at least 50 times before it
broke at the point where it was clamped by the vice grips. I was
impressed, considering I was taking it well into the plastic deformation
region with each flex.
Curt Reimer
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting skins |
Just an observation:
If you had to do what you did, you either 1) didn't dimple completely
(didn't hit it hard enough?), or 2) don't have really good dimple dies.
Do some practice dimpling until you get better results, you shouldn't be
needing to do BOTH dimple and machine countersinks.
Earl and I had a similar problem when trying to use his expensive
pneumatic dimpler (which he has since gotten well rid of). I went back
and re-dimpled the affected skins, which now look as good as the ones I
used the Avery tool on in the first place.
dw
>I just completed the H.S. I dimpled the skins and ribs/spars. The
>dimpling process is not quite uniform. I took a countersink bit and
>adjusted it to the correct depth of the flush rivet and lightly (repeat:
>lightly) shaved the dimpled skin before inserting the rivet. This
>process delivers a very smooth finish and a pleasing appearance to the
>finisted work.
>Looking forward the the V.S,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Spar Flange Scratch Removal |
> I've been working on my first wing spar for the last couple of weeks,
>and it's really depressing how many scratches, nicks,etc are left over
>from manufacturing, handling and shipping.
*** lots deleted ***
>
>Curt Reimer
>RV-6
Curt,
What I did on my spar was just to use ScothBrite 7440 in a Makita
1/4 sheet high speed orbital sander. This left the spar with an even
pattern of small 'scratches'. Any defects that showed up through this
pattern were attacked with stronger measures (sandpaper by hand, or a mini
disk sander on my Dremel), or more time with this ScotchBrite. Defects
become easy to see since they conflict with the swirl marks left by the
ScotchBrite. Defects larger than these swirl marks should be removed and
blended in to remove very localized stress concentrations, even if this
does create a shallow depression. The power sander really helps to speed
things up, identifying the spots to work on more, while conditioning the
rest of the surface.
This technique was shown to me by Wayne at Phlogiston, and if you
look at his anodized spars, you can see this swirl pattern.
The 7440 ScotchBrite is a brown color and is coarser than the red
7447, and can be obtained from a good, industrial hardware supply store.
This grade of ScotchBrite will remove material, and is too coarse to use on
any Alclad sheet, but works fine on the harder surfaced bar stock. Use the
Bingelis technique of putting a piece of tape around each end to help the
sander clamps grip better.
good luck sanding .... Gil Alexander, RV-6A
P.S. per some postings last summer, use plastic rain guttering to create a
tank for acid etching and alodining the spars before priming, it's just
right for those long strips.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dimpling vs. machine C/S HS skeleton, trimming skin |
Absolutely NO. That would leave nothing for the rivet to grip to.
I never noticed any significant 'warping' caused by dimpling during my
construction, on wing ribs or anywhere.
I sure hope he didn't do what I think you are describing here. Did you
say he dimpled his .032 skins and machine countersunk the .025 &.032 rib
and spar flanges? Please tell me I mis-understood that....
dw
>I'm about to start drilling the HS skin to the skeleton, and am
>concerned about the dimpling vs. machine countersinking issue. I had
>planned to dimple both skins and the skeleton, but a local RV builder I
>spoke with yesterday raised the point that dimpling the skeleton will
>cause my (hopefully) nice, straight, aligned spars and ribs to curve.
>He recommended dimpling the skins and machine countersinking the
>skeleton. Any thoughts?
>Also, I've trimmed the outboard edge of the skins so that they fit in the
>jig, but have not done the final trimming yet. When and how is it best to
>trim these skins?
Only trim the skins when you have to to make them fit another part (ie fiberglas
tips, counterbalances, etc.)
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | dimpling vs. machine C/S HS skeleton, trimming skin (fwd) |
I think most of us prefer dimpling. It is stronger and gives a more
consistent finished result. I countersank my empanage as I didn't know
any better.
Regarding the distortion, yes dimpling will strech the spar (or hinge
or whatever you dimple) a little but it will pull back in shape easily
when you cleco it to the skin. It has been a long time since I buly
my tail so I don't recall the detail. However, I would ensure you can
dimple all the holes in the spar first as you may have some interference
with the HS spar doublers that prevent getting a dimple die in there.
For those holes, you would then countersink the top skin and not
do anything to the spar hole.
For trimming, you can do it anytime. Delaying it until you know
exactly where the ribs will be is no problem. You can't put it back
once you cut it off. Trim in small imcrements and then file the last
little bit.
FYI, you can even leave the root excess on until you fit the HS to
the fuselage and then trim it to fit. One word of caution, do not
get the nose of the root rib too far inboard. On my RV4, I had to
file into part of the nose rib to get the HS to fit on the fuselage.
I was told by other builders that this was a common problem.
You need to put the ribs where things allign but if possible, error
on the side of having the root rib farther toward the tip rathar than
too close to the fuselage. The main problem is at the nose are of the
root rib.
>
> I'm about to start drilling the HS skin to the skeleton, and am concerned
> about the dimpling vs. machine countersinking issue. I had planned to
> dimple both skins and the skeleton, but a local RV builder I spoke with
> yesterday raised the point that dimpling the skeleton will cause my
> (hopefully) nice, straight, aligned spars and ribs to curve. He
> recommended dimpling the skins and machine countersinking the skeleton.
> Any thoughts?
>
> Also, I've trimmed the outboard edge of the skins so that they fit in the
> jig, but have not done the final trimming yet. When and how is it best to
> trim these skins?
>
> Rick.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
> Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
> Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
> 1601 Harkrider
> Conway, AR 72032-3080
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: dimpling vs. machine C/S HS skeleton, trimming skin |
Richard M. Ernst wrote: ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
> > I'm about to start drilling the HS skin to the skeleton, and am concerned
> about the dimpling vs. machine countersinking issue. I had planned to
> dimple both skins and the skeleton, but a local RV builder I spoke with
> yesterday raised the point that dimpling the skeleton will cause my
> (hopefully) nice, straight, aligned spars and ribs to curve. He
> recommended dimpling the skins and machine countersinking the skeleton.
> Any thoughts?
I know I won't be alone in saying -- DIMPLE! It's easier, more consistent, and
above all, STRONGER. Machine countersinking in less than .032 will "break through"
and give you a weaker rivet. (aren't those ribs made out of .025?)
Some will argue (myself included) that machine countersinking even .032 is pretty
marginal.
Your spars and ribs won't curve appreciably by being dimpled, and even
if they did, you could always use fluting pliers to straighten them out.
Once you've drilled, the holes will pull everything into alignment
regardless.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Spar Flange Scratch Removal (fwd) |
You don't say what parts of the spar are nicked/scratched.
The nice thing about the RV wing spar is that it is made up of a
number of components. A crack in one piece will not spread through
the entire spar (but it could weaken it).
The center web is not real critical is the strength comes from the
spar plates at the outer edges. I would not want to see any large
nicks in these outer spar plates, esp. close to the center section.
Some people have messed up drilling wing tank holes into this area
where there is no room for rivets and in some cases that is enough
to scrap the spar (force you to drill out the rivets and replace these
spar straps).
You should probably call Van's and discuss it with them. They may
need to be aware they have a Quality Control problem.
I bought the prebuilt spars and don't recall this problem as they
are all finished and anodized.
> From root Mon Jan 16 12:41:14 1995
> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:11:30 -0600 (CST)
> From: Curt Reimer <NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA!Curt_Reimer(at)matronics.com>
> To: RV mailing list
> Subject: Spar Flange Scratch Removal
>
> I've been working on my first wing spar for the last couple of weeks,
> and it's really depressing how many scratches, nicks,etc are left over
> from manufacturing, handling and shipping. What I do is to use sandpaper
> and a scotchbrite pad to remove the oxidation from the surface of the
> flanges. This also helps show all the scratches, etc, which I then dress
> out using a Dremel tool with a small scotchbrite wheel. The trouble is,
> as I polish and clean up the flanges, smaller nicks and scratches become
> visible, til I'm now at the point where I'm wondering if I have to put a
> mirror finish on the things to be satisfied that I won't end up with a
> cracked spar after a couple of thousand hours. I know this subject has
> come up before, but is there any practical limit to the size of a scratch
> I should worry about on these critical parts? The manual helpfully says
> to sand out ALL scratches.
>
> Actually, nicks seem to be a bigger problem than scratches, as the nicks
> can be quite deep, which necessitates removing a lot of material to fully
> dress it out. Is a nick or pit as serious as a scratch? Presumably any
> material removed from the spar flanges cuts into that 50% overstrength
> factor that Van has designed into the spar, but I guess a weak spar is
> better than a cracked spar. (note: "a lot of material" means maybe .020
> max.)
>
> Incidentally, I took a 4" piece of my .125 spar flange taper trimmings,
> clamped it in a vice, clamped a pair of vice-grips on the other end and
> proceeded to flex it back and forth, 90 degrees each way, until it
> fatigued and broke. I must have flexed it at least 50 times before it
> broke at the point where it was clamped by the vice grips. I was
> impressed, considering I was taking it well into the plastic deformation
> region with each flex.
>
> Curt Reimer
> RV-6
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
| Subject: | Re: dimpling vs. machine C/S HS skeleton, trimming skin |
Don Wentz replied that it is not a good idea to machine countersink the
spar/rib skeleton beneath the HS (or any other) skin:
>Absolutely NO. That would leave nothing for the rivet to grip to.
>I never noticed any significant 'warping' caused by dimpling during my
>construction, on wing ribs or anywhere.
>
>I sure hope he didn't do what I think you are describing here. Did you
>say he dimpled his .032 skins and machine countersunk the .025 &.032 rib
>and spar flanges? Please tell me I mis-understood that....
>dw
>
I agree with Don Wentz's advice. I have since spoken with Bob Avery who
had the same thing to say. Bob pointed out that one would have to machine
countersink even deeper than .032 in order to accomodate the dimpled skin,
which is pretty much out of the question. I'll stick with dimpling both
skins and skeleton, and I'll use good (Avery) dies. I'll also mention this
to the local builder who originally gave me the advice to machine
countersink the skeleton.
RME.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Alodine vs. Anodizing (updated with references, etc) |
I made a few updates to this to add the references in the newsletter
to the Anodized Spar article and another article on Corrosion.
Also added Gil Alexander's excellent note on primers.
Discard the old copy from last week. Herman
>
> Randall
> I building my rudder now and I am quite amazed about all of the
> messages about priming. I am confused about the anodizing process. Why
> do you do it and how is it done?. What materials do you use?
> Thanks
> Bob
>
The topic here is preventing corrosion. See the June 92 issue of
RVator for a brief discussion of the different types of corrosion.
First, there are two different processes and you don't want to
get confused. They are alodine and anodizing.
(Note, see the June 92 issue of The RVator for a discussion of the
different types of corrosion).
ALODINE. This is the process that you will use most with painting
so lets discuss first. This is the process where you first acid
etch the AL and then apply the Alodine conversion coating.
Alodine is a strong oxidizer and does a chemical conversion of the
surface (oxidizes it) and is the best way to prep it for painting.
The paint is suppose to bond to the alodine'd surface better.
For interior parts it probably would not have to be done but most
of us do it as it is not much more work if you are going to etch
the parts. I would alodine the non-alcad parts for sure just to be
safe. This process just requires you buy the quart(s) or gal of
Alodine from any of the AC supply houses. DuPont calls their process
225S cleaner and 226S conversion coating, but it is the same thing.
You make sure it is rinsed off and you do not let it dry on the surface
as it will leave a film. You just want it to convert the surface and
rinse it off and wipe dry.
ANODIZE. This is an electro-chemical process that typically requires
extensive equipment to do it right.
If you buy the Phlogiston prebuilt spars, they come anodized and
are the nice gold color. This is a very good corrosion prevention
process but it also hardens the surface of the material.
Van wrote an article in the Dec 1991 issue of "The RVator" that
addressed the issue of Anodized spars and the affect on fatigue strength.
The issue is what does anodizing do to the service life of the spars?
His conclusion was that anodizing offers more than double the
corrosion resistance of priming. However, it also reduces the
fatigue life by up to 50%. The normal fatigue life was computed
to be 24,000 hours on regular aerobatic use so the anodized life
would be 12,000 hours. That would be 80 yrs at 150 hrs/yr.
Also, these are conservative numbers. If you get corrosion in a spar
it also lowers the service life (and maybe yours also) so anodizing them
is a good tradeoff.
If you are building a RV, I don't think you need to worry about
anodizing, esp. if you buy the pre-built wing spars as it is already
done. If you build your own spars, then you may want to do this
if you have access to a commercial shop that can do this properly.
Because this involves the use of strong acids, it needs to be done
properly. See prior messages on this over the last few weeks.
Doing the simpler alodine and epoxy primer at home can give superior
results at minimum cost and avoide the fatigue strength issue.
See note below on epoxy primers.
Due to the cost of this anodize process (for small lot sizes) and due to
the surface hardening, it is not something you need to do for
the other parts of your RV. We have 50 yr old Cessnas flying around
that are not even primed inside so I don't think we need to get
too carried away here. If you live along a salt water coast,
then the alodine and priming discussed above should cover you.
My origional note had some words on expoxy primers being porus
and maybe not protecting as well as I thought they would and that
zinc chromate may still be a fast but effective way to prime the
interior. Gil Alexander responded with the following excellent discussion
of epoxy primers and I am including it here as it is a logical
place for it. I think the message is that not all primers are
created equal and you need to read the label (and know what to look for).
Gil Says:
This is a good reason to use a MIL Spec 23377 type epoxy primer.
The spec calls for a minimum of 52% of it's pigment to be Strontium
Chromate - the approved replacement for Zinc Chromate. These primers are
usually a yellow/green 'sort-of-ugly' color (the spec calls the raw pigment
"deep yellow").
Aluminum corrosion resistance is required to be better than 1000
hours in a 5% solution salt spray test. Water resistance is required to be
4 days immersion im 120 degree water (try this with your spray can
paint!!), as well as 24 hours in 250 degree lubricating oil!! These
primers get much harder than zinc chromate, and are also resistant to MEK
solutions. The "speciality" epoxy primers in previous postings are
commercial (Boeing, MacDoug) equivalents of this MIL Spec, and are usually
refered to as "Fluid Resistant Epoxy Primer".
I'm not sure if the porosity comments above apply to this class of
product.
If you want to buy some, it's probably at your auto paint store as
PPG Industries DP-70/DP-701 primer.
For steel, I prefer cadmium plating, and you can still paint over
the plating if you want.
protect that aluminum ... Gil Alexander, RV-6A, #20701
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Richard S. Ward) |
| Subject: | F401-Fwd Floor Ribs Riveting, RV4 |
The F401-forward floor rib area is a pretty cramped space in the RV4. Even
my 2X gun with my shortest angled set will not fit into the area to drive
the 4-5's and 4-8's that Van calls out in the drawings.
I am assuming that pop rivets are the solution. Since I haven't had the
class on pop rivets yet, can someone give me some guidance on what pop
rivets to use. Are there other solutions?
-- Rich Rv4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: F401-Fwd Floor Ribs Riveting, RV4 |
Text item:
Look in the Aircraft Spruce catalog (cherry & cherrymax rivets) for some
limited education. Keep in mind, steel mandrel structural blind rivets can
be very difficult to drill out.
JMW
RV-4, wings almost done
What is the real definition for "almost"?
The F401-forward floor rib area is a pretty cramped space in the RV4. Even
my 2X gun with my shortest angled set will not fit into the area to drive
the 4-5's and 4-8's that Van calls out in the drawings.
I am assuming that pop rivets are the solution. Since I haven't had the
class on pop rivets yet, can someone give me some guidance on what pop
rivets to use. Are there other solutions?
-- Rich Rv4
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: F401-Fwd Floor Ribs Riveting, RV4
From: llnl.gov!ward9(at)matronics.com (Richard S. Ward)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 07:50:52 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: F401-Fwd Floor Ribs Riveting, RV4 |
I am building a "6", and I am trying to visualize your problem. I might have
a solution if I understand the situation correctly. If you had a rivet set
about 10" long, would it reach the problem rivet? If so, you could avoid the
POP solution.
I picked up one a while ago, and wouldn't mind loaning it out. I believe
it's a "4-X" size and will look if you're interested.
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
>The F401-forward floor rib area is a pretty cramped space in the RV4. Even
>my 2X gun with my shortest angled set will not fit into the area to drive
>the 4-5's and 4-8's that Van calls out in the drawings.
>
>-- Rich Rv4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: F401-Fwd Floor Ribs Riveting, RV4 |
> JMW
> RV-4, wings almost done
> What is the real definition for "almost"?
90% done, 50% to go
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au> |
I'm trying to decide the lighting arrangements on my -6a. I have
decided to go for
- Port and Starboard lights on wingtips
- Tail light at bottom of rudder
- Landing Light on each wing (Is it Don Wentz who makes them?)
- A single strobe
My initial instinct is to put the strobe on the top of the fin,
however I wonder if somewhere on the fuse would be better - under or over
behind the cockpit.
Ray Belbin
RV6a (still workin on the wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingM(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Re: Buna N rubber |
>Received: from uucp11.netcom.com by coopext.cahe.wsu.edu;
(5.65/1.1.8.2/24Aug94-0837AM)
>Received: from matronics.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.9/SMI-4.1)
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eissosd gdav
,ku
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
A couple of recent notes relating to rivet guns have listed
different sizes/models. I am ordering Avery's RV toolkit and I
have to choose either a 3X or a 2X. Is there really much
difference? I was going to choose the 3X because it will handle a
bigger rivet. Is that even worth worrying about?
BTW... I am planning to order their "starter" kit (I think it's
kit #4). It has "most of the tools you'll need to start the
empenage, but not everything." I'm trying to not spend too much
money getting started. Is it worth buying this kit and adding
other tools later, or should I just spring for the big kit (#1 I
believe)? Having picked up my air compressor a couple of days ago,
I'm still in sticker shock. I don't even have any airplane parts
yet and I'm going broke! It's funny... I can justify spending
this money on an airplane, but I don't think I would spend it on
anything else...
thanks,
Russ
RV-6 prepin'
>I believe it's a "4-X" size and will look if you're interested.
>Even my 2X gun
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark60195(at)aol.com |
I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
their -4 or -6 without assistance. I'm still trying to decide on a
project and would really like to build a RV-6A. After aquiring the
sheet metal book from the EAA that extensively discusses riveting
it appears that it is helpful to have someone to help with the bucking
bars. I'm single and live alone and really can't see being able to call
a friend over to help me set a rivet in some obscure location on a
regular basis. Is this really an issue? Is it possible to "rig" the
bucking bars in place somehow? What percentage of the total
project would require assistance? Also how have people handled
kit deliveries? I suppose all the kits are shipped truck freight and
with no one home during the days how can I take delivery? Can one
pick up the kit from a trucking terminal or make arrangements to be
called when the truck is in the vicinity? Thanks!
- Mark (gotta build a plane) Lakomski
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Alodine vs. Anodizing (addendum) |
Herman Dierks summarized the Alodine vs. Anodize situation very
well for aluminum, and added my notes on epoxy primers. Here's an addendum
for the references to steel parts.
Part of the previous threads referenced the corrosion of 4130 steel
and primers, so I investigated further with our local mechanical engineer
(an RV4 builder). Even though we are an electronics company, it's good to
keep a few mechanical engineers around!
We checked the MacAir specs for F18 corrosion protection, and the
preferred method for 4130 is for cadmium plating with a MIL-std-23377 epoxy
primer coat. This is for internal parts, and for external components the
spec is similar with an addition of two coats of polyurethane paint. If
this finish is OK for Navy fighters in a salt spray atmosphere on a carrier
deck, then it's probably the best we can do for our RVs.
Out of the 5 protection options in the general Mil spec (889B), the
above was rated the highest. Number 2 was cadmium plate with an irridite
finish (sort of a transparent gold finish) - with no primer coat.
This is easy to do everywhere in the US, and is safe for all
non-heat treated parts. For heat treated parts, some special stress
relieving needs to be done, so a good aerospace plating shop is a must, and
costs will increase. The only RV heat treated parts are spar splice
plates, gear legs, and tail spring.
Again, just like aluminum, if you paint the steel, clean it well
first with MetalPrep (Aircraft Spruce and auto body supply stores) -- it's
just like Alumiprep, but for steel.
I'm going to stick with my cad. plating, and just paint when I want
a decorative effect.
Other local builders have had good luck with powder painting
critical parts (gear legs and engine mounts), which seems a bit more
expensive, but is as hard a finish as I've seen.
protect your bird (in and out) .... Gil Alexander, RV-6A, #20701
... finally ready to rivet fus. skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Strobe ? |
Hey Ray,
You still out there???
Give me a call!!
O6 2766811 W
018 628804 Mobile
06 2821579 H
John Morrissey
I'm trying to decide the lighting arrangements on my -6a. I have
decided to go for
- Port and Starboard lights on wingtips
- Tail light at bottom of rudder
- Landing Light on each wing (Is it Don Wentz who makes them?)
- A single strobe
My initial instinct is to put the strobe on the top of the fin,
however I wonder if somewhere on the fuse would be better - under or over
behind the cockpit.
Ray Belbin
RV6a (still workin on the wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Van's on compuserve |
Richard Vangrunsven 76455,1602 is now
listed on compuserve.
I spoke with Tom Green yesterday about the
new fuel senders and he gave me their
address. I followed up with some more
questions on compuserve and I had a
responce back when I logged into compuserve
this am.
We can get to them via the net with
76455.1602(at)compuserve.com
I am going to use compuserve since Van will
not incure any charges. Currently
compuserve subscibers pay $0.10 per message
via the Internet. I don't want to
discourage Van by running up charges.
(After that recent article about his trip
to Vegas.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Strobe ? |
On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Ray Belbin wrote:
> I'm trying to decide the lighting arrangements on my -6a. I have
> decided to go for
> - Port and Starboard lights on wingtips
> - Tail light at bottom of rudder
> - Landing Light on each wing (Is it Don Wentz who makes them?)
> - A single strobe
>
> My initial instinct is to put the strobe on the top of the fin,
> however I wonder if somewhere on the fuse would be better - under or over
> behind the cockpit.
>
> Ray Belbin
> RV6a (still workin on the wings)
>
>
Ray,
I think one consideration is whether the strobe will be within direct
eysight from within the cockpit. Flashes directly into the cockpit can
be distracting. In the -6A, you may be better installing it on the fuse.
My opinion only.
______________________
| Alan Reichert |
| reichera(at)clark.net |
|----------------------|
| RV-4/RV-6 debate |
| in progress |
|______________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Solo Riveting |
Part1
I'm building a "6". The tail and wings are done (except for the bottom wing
skin...to be done near the end of the process). The wing skins are the
places where I've needed a helping hand.
Part2
It sounds like you might need a date! I can't think of a better pick-up line
than "How would you like to come back to my place and help me buck in an
obscure location?" Building an RV may be just the thing. I don't know what
you'd say if you choose a plactic planeto build.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>Part1
>I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
>their -4 or -6 without assistance. I'm still trying to decide on a
>project and would really like to build a RV-6A. After aquiring the
>sheet metal book from the EAA that extensively discusses riveting
>it appears that it is helpful to have someone to help with the bucking
>bars.
>Part2
> I'm single and live alone and really can't see being able to call
>a friend over to help me set a rivet in some obscure location on a
>regular basis.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Strobe ? (fwd) |
With the strobe on the top of the VS, you would get a lot of flash
in the cockpit from reflections on the top of the wings.
You would have to block off the fwd 1/3 or so of the strobe light.
This limits it's effective area.
It's still better than no strobe however.
>
> I'm trying to decide the lighting arrangements on my -6a. I have
> decided to go for
> - Port and Starboard lights on wingtips
> - Tail light at bottom of rudder
> - Landing Light on each wing (Is it Don Wentz who makes them?)
> - A single strobe
>
> My initial instinct is to put the strobe on the top of the fin,
> however I wonder if somewhere on the fuse would be better - under or over
> behind the cockpit.
>
> Ray Belbin
> RV6a (still workin on the wings)
>
>
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Van's on compuserve |
Well, Compuserve is a bummer. That's bull about a per message charge. I would
suspect that they (Van's) will never want to be on the RV-LIST due to the
large amount of traffic. Waa.
Not to start a Internet bitch thread on the RV-LIST, but what's with these
"service" companies charging per email message? That sort of defeats to
whole idea of the Internet. Unless it's changed, the connect charge for
Compuserve is pretty high for what you get. For the cost of 2 hours on
Compuserve, I have a full blown UUCP connection all month. With all of
the RV-LIST traffic and regular matronics.com traffic, there are probably
200-300 messages a month sent over the UUCP and probably at least 100 mb
of data. These service providers really need to drop this annoying per
message charge. To thier credit, I don't think AOL charges for email
messages.
I would love to get Van's on the RV-LIST. Do you think that he'd be interested
in being added anyway?
Matt Dralle
>--------------
>Richard Vangrunsven 76455,1602 is now
>listed on compuserve.
>
>I spoke with Tom Green yesterday about the
>new fuel senders and he gave me their
>address. I followed up with some more
>questions on compuserve and I had a
>responce back when I logged into compuserve
>this am.
>
>We can get to them via the net with
>76455.1602(at)compuserve.com
>
>I am going to use compuserve since Van will
>not incure any charges. Currently
>compuserve subscibers pay $0.10 per message
>via the Internet. I don't want to
>discourage Van by running up charges.
>(After that recent article about his trip
>to Vegas.)
>
>--------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Strobe ? |
>
> I'm trying to decide the lighting arrangements on my -6a. I have
> decided to go for
> - Port and Starboard lights on wingtips
> - Tail light at bottom of rudder
> - Landing Light on each wing (Is it Don Wentz who makes them?)
> - A single strobe
>
> My initial instinct is to put the strobe on the top of the fin,
> however I wonder if somewhere on the fuse would be better - under or over
> behind the cockpit.
In my experience a strobe that can be seen from the drivers seat is
not an option. Your pannel will be intermittently very bright followed
invisable. Cheaf sells a cool Weilan combo tail nav light/strobe
unit that mounts in the same hole as a standard nav light hole. The
nav light is in the center of the strobe tube. Wing-tip nav/strobe units
are also available. They require a seperate power supply but look like a
good option for RVs when used with another strobe(s) on the belly or the
wing-tips. Wheilan also sells a good selection of power supplys that can
be configured to be used in several different combinations of lights. The
more expensive units can be set to flash in sync or alternating for that
"Boeing on final" look. I plan on using a three strobs tail & wing-tips.
It may be over-kill but a small airplane appears to be further away to
another pilot. Combine that with high speed and you have a recipe for
disaster. Strobes are a small price to pay to avoide a mid-air.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solo Riveting |
>
> I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
> their -4 or -6 without assistance. I'm still trying to decide on a
> project and would really like to build a RV-6A. After aquiring the
> sheet metal book from the EAA that extensively discusses riveting
> it appears that it is helpful to have someone to help with the bucking
> bars. I'm single and live alone and really can't see being able to call
> a friend over to help me set a rivet in some obscure location on a
> regular basis.
I sure you find lots of new friends that want to help. I have people
want to help all the time. Some want the experience before they start
their own project, some trade for help on their plane and some just wanna'
help. The RV/homebuilding croud is very big and very friendly.
> Is this really an issue? Is it possible to "rig" the bucking bars in
> place somehow?
No.
> What percentage of the total
> project would require assistance?
I do almost all of the work. Most of your time will be spent thinking
about how to approch the next step and drilling and dimpling holes and deburing
parts. The actual riveting is a small part of the work.
Also how have people handled
> kit deliveries? I suppose all the kits are shipped truck freight and
> with no one home during the days how can I take delivery? Can one
> pick up the kit from a trucking terminal or make arrangements to be
> called when the truck is in the vicinity? Thanks!
Empenage kits are sent UPS. You can make arangments with trucking
company to cover your needs. It may cost more, or if you pick up at the
depot it may cost less.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
RUSS_NICHOLS said:
> A couple of recent notes relating to rivet guns have listed
> different sizes/models. I am ordering Avery's RV toolkit and I
> have to choose either a 3X or a 2X. Is there really much
> difference? I was going to choose the 3X because it will handle a
> bigger rivet. Is that even worth worrying about?
I have a 3x and a 2x and use the 2x almost exclusively, as it's easier
to handle with one hand than the 3x. But I think my 3x is a lot bigger
than the one Avery sells. I know some people prefer the 3x. The point
is though that I've found the 2x to be plenty strong enough to do the
work. It won't do wing spars however, I did those with the Avery arbor
and a 4lb hammer, and that worked fine.
> BTW... I am planning to order their "starter" kit (I think it's
> kit #4). It has "most of the tools you'll need to start the
> empenage, but not everything." I'm trying to not spend too much
> money getting started. Is it worth buying this kit and adding
> other tools later, or should I just spring for the big kit (#1 I
> believe)
[snip]
I haven't looked at the kit so can't say for sure. I just went through
the catalog and looked at what other builders had and made my own
list. I've since bought a LOT more tools here and there. My advice
would be to get hold of Doug Bloomberg's "What Tools do I need" list (I
can forward that to you if you want), and start with the tools you
really think you need early on, then add to it as you gain experience
with methods and your preferences for how you like to do things. But
whatever you do, get the Avery rivet/dimple arbor (or equivalent) --
it's invaluable.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Solo Riveting (fwd) |
For the skins, you really need two people.
With the flush rivits, the flush set will 'walk' on the surface
if you don't hold it with two hands. You can destroy your skins
in short order. I messed up one day on my stainless steel firewall
and thought I could do a few rivits myself and the gun walked and
I left a couple "smilies" in my firewall skin.
There are lots of rivits you can do by yourself. All the stiffners
on ailerons, elevators, etc. are back riveted and is a one person job.
Riviting all the angles on to ribs etc, can usually be done with
one person, esp with a pnuematic squeezer.
But when it comes to the skins, you need another person. You just
need to find someone interested in homebuilts that wants to help
(or if all else fails, get married).
Herman
> From: aol.com!Mark60195(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 05:41:30 -0500
> Message-Id: <950118054122_4944898(at)aol.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Solo Riveting
>
> I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
> their -4 or -6 without assistance. I'm still trying to decide on a
> project and would really like to build a RV-6A. After aquiring the
> sheet metal book from the EAA that extensively discusses riveting
> it appears that it is helpful to have someone to help with the bucking
> bars. I'm single and live alone and really can't see being able to call
> a friend over to help me set a rivet in some obscure location on a
> regular basis. Is this really an issue? Is it possible to "rig" the
> bucking bars in place somehow? What percentage of the total
> project would require assistance? Also how have people handled
> kit deliveries? I suppose all the kits are shipped truck freight and
> with no one home during the days how can I take delivery? Can one
> pick up the kit from a trucking terminal or make arrangements to be
> called when the truck is in the vicinity? Thanks!
> - Mark (gotta build a plane) Lakomski
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Solo Riveting |
Mark Lakomski wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
> their -4 or -6 without assistance.
[snip]
> What percentage of the total
> project would require assistance?
I wouldn't worry Mark, you can do a whole lot of the riveting
yourself. Anything that's close to an edge, which includes pretty much
the whole skeleton, can be done with hand squeezers or one hand on the
bucking bar and one on the gun. I use a 2x gun for most of the work as
it's easier to handle with one hand than my 3x, though I think my 3x is
larger than the one that Avery sells. Sure it's easier with two, but
you can do it yourself. It helps to be resourceful, and to get a lot of
clamps of various shapes and sizes, and to clamp the work to a stable
surface so it won't shift while you're riveting. The main things you
need help with are the skins, and you can prep those all up then call
someone in for help for a big riveting session. I'd say less than 2%
of the time I've spent so far has required a helper. Bear in mind I'm
not into the fuselage yet though, so I can't speak to that.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
P.S. Boy that pneumatic squeezer is a neat tool, if you can spend the
bucks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | re: Solo Riveting |
> I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
> their -4 or -6 without assistance. I'm still trying to decide on a
...
I'll take a stab at this one. You can't do the whole thing yourself,
but you can do a fair amount. I know some people who have done an
amazing amount of the riveting without help. That said, it is often
a lot easier (and the end result better) if you have help. For example,
riveting the leading edge skins on the wings/fuel tanks can be
done solo, but it's a lot easier with help. I know one builder who
did the leading edges himself and ended up with a lot of dings.
Another did it and it came out fine. The good thing about it is that
the actual riveting is a small part of the building process,
and often you can plan the work to minimize the number of sessions
you need to find help with. For example, when doing my horizontal stab,
I had a friend come over and we riveted the skins on in an afternoon,
and that was the only help needed on that assembly.
Bucking is a relatively easy skill to teach someone, but I have found
it's one of those things that requires a bit of "feel" that some people
seem to have and some don't. I have a nice ding on my left wing
(top side, smack in the middle, of course...) from a bucker who couldn't
seem to keep the bar on the rivets. Another person I've called on for
help did a few practice rivets and looked like he had been doing
it all his life.
> Is it possible to "rig" the bucking bars in place somehow?
I can't see a reasonable way to do anything like that...
> Also how have people handled kit deliveries?
Usually you can arrange to pick them up at the freight terminal if you
like, or they can deliver it right to your door. I've done it both ways -
the tail kit I picked up myself, the wing kit was delivered since I
didn't have convenient access to a large enough vehicle. When stuff is
delivered, it is a good idea to make sure you have enough help to
unload it and get it into your garage/shop. Don't count on much help
from the trucking companies (at least in my experiences).
I once had a 600 lb. table saw delivered that was accompanied only
by the 130 lb., 110 year old truck driver and his hand truck.
I don't know about you, but I don't have a loading dock on my house.
To make a long story short, he ended up inadvertantly pushing the thing
off the back of the 4' high truck bed onto the driveway.
The tail and wing kits are pretty easily handled by two reasonably
strong people (the two crates for the wing kit were a bit much for my
wife, but I didn't have any problem handling one end of them - and I'm no
weightlifter). Don't know about the size/weight of the fuselage and
finish kits. You can sometimes get them to narrow down delivery times
to AM or PM, but I haven't had any luck getting any better resolution.
Often they don't know the schedule for deliveries until the truck is loaded
that morning.
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A (sometime this millennium, maybe...)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Van's on compuserve |
> Well, Compuserve is a bummer. That's bull about a per message charge. I would
> suspect that they (Van's) will never want to be on the RV-LIST due to the
> large amount of traffic. Waa.
[snip]
> I would love to get Van's on the RV-LIST. Do you think that he'd be interested
> in being added anyway?
>
> Matt Dralle
I've talked to Tom Green and Ken Scott several times in the past about
the whole e-mail/superhighway, etc issue, and the one thing I keep
hearing from them is a reluctance to even get ON the net for fear of
being inundated with non-relevant discussions and having no time for
real work. Tom Green in fact was on the rv-list for a while but didn't
advertise the fact since he found it was too time consuming plowing
through all the postings looking for actual technical questions he
might want to respond to. I mean face it, we do tend to yammer on about
things.
My suggestion to him was to publish their e-mail address to the list
and just ask that people address any issues that they want Van's input
on to BOTH the rv-list and Van's e-mail address. They (Van's) could
respond with a cc to the rv-list (you don't have to be ON the list to
mail to it, right?) and that way they would only have to read things
specifically directed to them, but everyone else would be able to
benefit from their responses and give their own input to the list as
well. He seemed to think that would work, but I haven't talked to him
about it since.
Since they have a tech support address now maybe we should adopt this
practice...? The main thing is to be discriminating about what you
direct to Van's, so they don't get tired of it and cut it off.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gretzw(at)tcplink.nrel.gov |
| Subject: | Source for rivet guns, air drill and stuff |
The recent mention of rivet guns reminded me to share a source I found
for good used industrial tools at very good prices.
Try---"The Yard" in Wichita, Kansas. They have an 800 number (don't
have it here, but a call to 800 information at 800 555-1212, or for
the regular number call 316 555-1212) they are very good to work with.
Warren
RV-6 -- wing construction underway
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Solo Riveting |
On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone in the newsgroup has been riveting up
> > their -4 or -6 without assistance. I'm still trying to decide on a
>
> I sure you find lots of new friends that want to help. I have people
> want to help all the time. Some want the experience before they start
The trick is to go out to the airport and mention you're building
a plane. When you do, you'll be amazed how many people come crawling out
of the corners of hangers...phone calls from people you've never heard of
etc. Kitplane building is becoming so popular that there are becoming two
groups of aviator - those building planes, and those wanting to build
planes.
Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Solo Riveting (fwd) -Reply |
[snip]
Herman Dierks says
But when it comes to the skins, you need
another person. You just
need to find someone interested in
homebuilts that wants to help
(or if all else fails, get married).
----> Make sure you get a prenuptual
bucking agreement.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Van's on compuserve |
>--------------
>
>My suggestion to him was to publish their e-mail address to the list
>and just ask that people address any issues that they want Van's input
>on to BOTH the rv-list and Van's e-mail address. They (Van's) could
>respond with a cc to the rv-list (you don't have to be ON the list to
>mail to it, right?) and that way they would only have to read things
>specifically directed to them, but everyone else would be able to
>benefit from their responses and give their own input to the list as
>well...
>
>--------------
Yes, anyone can post to the rv-list, even if they ar not a part of it. The
only problem I see with the plan above is that it assumes quite a bit of email
background and savy on Van's part. If they're just getting started, it may
take a while before any of what you said above even really makes any sense
to them.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Van's on compuserve |
Text item: Text_1
Randall:
Since many of us on the net, and especially those of us in the Portland
area already know the answer to most of the questions that might go to
Van's, how would it work if people always ask the rv-list first and then
ask Van only if they don't get a satisfactory answer? That would cut
down Van's traffic and keep him happy.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Solo Riveting - rivet sets |
**** Herman said ****:
> For the skins, you really need two people.
> With the flush rivits, the flush set will 'walk' on the surface
^^^^^^^^
*** see comments below ***
> if you don't hold it with two hands. You can destroy your skins
> in short order. I messed up one day on my stainless steel firewall
> and thought I could do a few rivits myself and the gun walked and
> I left a couple "smilies" in my firewall skin.
*** much deleted ***
I just bought a new flush rivet set from Avery Tools - the one with
the swivel head and rubber guard - as reccommended by George Orndof(sp?) in
the RV Fuselage Video. It worked extremely well, and I wish I had bought
it much earlier for my wings!!
The rubber is soft, and prevents the walking effect mentioned above
(like Herman, I also had to fix some firewall rivets on my own) enabling
one hand only on the rivet gun. The large diameter prevents skin damage if
the bucking bar slips, and the swivel feature helps stop the "smilie"
effect if you don't hold the gun at exactly 90 degrees to the surface.
In all, an excellent tool for the money (about $34 I think), and it
makes my previous "flush set with rubber guard" obsolete.
Gil Alexander, RV-6A, going to use it on my fuselage skins tonight!!
P.S. a new builder borrowed it, and he managed to rivet his horizontal
stab with it on his own!! With NO "smilies" !! Some stuff can be riveted
solo.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Strobe ? |
I am planning on the three way lights on the wing tips, white reat
red/green position lights and a strobe on each wing tip, maybe a rotating
beacon on the bottom fuselage because I think it looks neat! An RV friend
of my with a -6 put his strobe as far to the rear on the vert stab, and
claims that he does not get any reflection in the cockpit
BOB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's on compuserve |
> These service providers really need to drop this annoying per
> message charge. To thier credit, I don't think AOL charges for email
> messages.
CompuServe isn't really a 'service provider', they're a network of
their own. CompuServe (also known as CompuSpend) does not charge
a per-message charge for CompuServe-to-CompuServe e-mail. The
charge only applies when the e-mail goes to or from the Internet.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
| Subject: | Riveting the rudder stiffeners |
My partner and I are having problems with the rudder stiffeners. The
dimpling process gave us "oversized" holes and the rivets "run" when
being driven. (Back riveted) Has anyone else experienced this problem?
We have had no problems with the .032 skins on .032 spars and ribs. Is
this a comon problem with .016 and .025 aluminum? Our dimpling dies were
purchased from Avery. We did the rudder skin with Avery's deep device
and the stiffners were done with "aligator squeezer".
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | rivet guns (fwd) |
The advice I got from Sid Golden when I started my RV4 was to
use a 2x rivet gun. Sid sold aircraft tools for a living for a number
of years. I purchased one from him and it has worked great building
the entire RV4. I think most builders think they need some macho rivet
gun but you don't. The 2x will do all you need for a RV except
build the wing spars. From the various tips on this that have been
published, (see Tony's articl in Sport Aviation) you can do this
with Avery's tool and a big hammer.
The one thing that I found that does not work well with the 2X gun
is when using a long offset rivet set. For example, some people
are back riveting the top wing skins (bar on the outside and using
an offset set on the gun on the inside). I tried this and did not
like it. I don't know if it was me, but I think the 2x has a hard
time driving the larger mass of the offset set. Maybe I just did
not crank the pressure up enough.
If you can afford it, the pnumatic rivet squezer is also great
for lots of the dimpling and riveting tasks. Just use it with care
as it could smash a finger with ease. Don't let the kids play with it
if you have kids (like I do) that what to help.
>
> A couple of recent notes relating to rivet guns have listed
> different sizes/models. I am ordering Avery's RV toolkit and I
> have to choose either a 3X or a 2X. Is there really much
> difference? I was going to choose the 3X because it will handle a
> bigger rivet. Is that even worth worrying about?
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Van's Will be in Illinois February 6th |
FYI,
Someone from Van's will be at Clow airport in Napperville IL on the evening
of February 6, 1995.
I think he will also be in Iowa/Western Illinois on the 8th.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
After reading the thread about Van's and asking simple questions here, I
thought I'd give it a shot.
I am working on the flaps on my RV6A.
Question: On the plans, it has a revision (r1 dated 12/89) to change the
flap brace from 56 to 55.5 inchs. Also the flap hinge is to be
cut to 55.5 inches.
However, when I measure my flap brace it is still 56 inches?
I assume that they trimmed .5 of an inch off to give more
clearance between the root of the flap and the fuse. But I am still
confused as to why the brace would be shipped 56 inches long.
Any thoughts?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Riveting the rudder stiffeners (fwd) |
What do you mean by 'run'?
If you mean, bend over, then they are probably too long.
Are you holding the two pieces down tight onto the rivet backing plate?
If you don't have the plastic sleeve on the rivet set (ie the Avery
back rivet set tool) then you can use something like a 9/16 inch
box end wrench to hold down the doubler to the skin when you back rivet it.
For the length, remember you measure from the dimple top not the skin.
> From: delphi.com!JERRYWALKER(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 21:25:45 -0500 (EST)
> My partner and I are having problems with the rudder stiffeners. The
> dimpling process gave us "oversized" holes and the rivets "run" when
> being driven. (Back riveted) Has anyone else experienced this problem?
> We have had no problems with the .032 skins on .032 spars and ribs. Is
> this a comon problem with .016 and .025 aluminum? Our dimpling dies were
> purchased from Avery. We did the rudder skin with Avery's deep device
> and the stiffners were done with "aligator squeezer".
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
I have a not to serious ? about the RV's that came up between my brother and
myself while we were dimpling and priming aileron skins 2night.
He thinks that there are no more than 5 pounds of rivets in the whole plane.
I think that it must be over that. Has anyone every calculated this factoid?
I know, we should of had a better source of fresh air when we where priming.
don mack
rv-6a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca |
by mail.magic.ca (PostalUnion/SMTP 1.1.4)
Gee, I wish I'd known about this list 3 years ago!
This note is to introduce myself as a new subscriber. I'm in the final
throws
of finishing a 6-A, all the airframe is complete, just waiting to finalise
instruments and take delivery of my re-built injected 360.
My 6-A will be slightly different as I'm incorporating the same main gear
legs
as on the Nigerian Air Beetle. I spent 6 months out there and actually
worked
on the first production version delivered to the Nigerian Air Force, then a
few
more. I liked the gear so much that when I returned to Canada I scrapped my
regular 6-A gear in favour of this version.
It cost me an arm and a leg and many hours of work but I think the result
is
worth it.
I'm also splitting my instrument panel into a main centre section and two
angled sidepanels....looks really good but is causing me some extra pain as
the
gyros now sit right in front of the subpanel ribs.
Speaking of gyros, ready to buy right now. My choices are SIGMA-TEK, IFR or
re-builts from Century. Does anyone have any comments on these?
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap Question and Re: Solo Riveting |
Text item:
> I assume that they trimmed .5 of an inch off to give more
> clearance between the root of the flap and the fuse. But I am still
> confused as to why the brace would be shipped 56 inches long.
This is not the only component that is not shipped to the current size, although
most are. There are also some items that are shipped in the right size but the
plans are wrong. Between that and occasional mistakes made by Van's sheet metal
suppliers it is necessary to verify the dimensions of every item before using
it. Van is working on this kind of thing and is constantly making improvements,
but some of the less important things get left 'til later.
Rudder rivet problem:
Dimpling does enlarge the holes, so we use a #41 or 3/32" drill bit for these
holes instead of a #40 so the rivet will not move.
Flush Rivet Sets:
For some reason, some builders have better luck with the flush set that does not
swivel. I am one of these, but I am keeping both just in case I find some
situation where the swivel one does work better for me. Since the non-swivel
type is much cheaper, I suggest buying the non-swivel one first, then if you
have trouble making dings buy the swivel type and keep the other for flush or
back riveting in tight area (take the guard off).
Frank J.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Flap Question
From: interaccess.com!donmack(at)matronics.com (Don Mack)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 22:59:25 -0600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Solo Riveting - rivet sets -Reply |
I just bought a new flush rivet set
from Avery Tools - the one with the swivel
head and rubber guard - as reccommended by
George Orndof(sp?) in the RV Fuselage
Video. It worked extremely well, and I
wish I had bought it much earlier for my
wings!!
The rubber is soft, and prevents
the walking effect mentioned above
(like Herman, I also had to fix some
firewall rivets on my own) enabling one
hand only on the rivet gun. The large
diameter prevents skin damage if the
bucking bar slips, and the swivel feature
helps stop the "smilie" effect if you don't
hold the gun at exactly 90 degrees to the
surface.
In all, an excellent tool for the
money (about $34 I think), and it makes my
previous "flush set with rubber guard"
obsolete.
Gil Alexander, RV-6A, going to use
it on my fuselage skins tonight!!
P.S. a new builder borrowed it, and he
managed to rivet his horizontal stab with
it on his own!! With NO "smilies" !! Some
stuff can be riveted solo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can second that testimonial. I bought the
same tool from Bob Avery and did the entire
stab solo. The middle upper ribs where a
reach but then I have 36" sleeve length
arms. No smilies, black rubber set sits in
the drawer.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <John.H.Henderson(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | re: Solo Riveting |
Find a local EAA chapter and join if you haven't already.
There are probably people there (like myself) who are
dying to help someone build their plane.
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Source for rivet guns, air drill and stuff |
>
> Try---"The Yard" in Wichita, Kansas. They have an 800 number (don't
> have it here, but a call to 800 information at 800 555-1212, or for
> the regular number call 316 555-1212) they are very good to work with.
>
You might check the 800 number dir web sight that ATT has.
http//att.net/dir800
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Flap Question and Re: Solo Riveting |
Text item: Text_1
My wife and I both had the same trouble with the swivel set; it tended
to slide off to the side more. I suspect this is because with the
non-swivel set you cannot feel that you are holding the gun at an angle
to the surface. I didn't buy the swivel set until I had my wife help do
the first wing topskin and I had to drill out over 100 rivets (she
refuses to buck). When she tried to use the swivel set things got worse.
I tried it and went back to the fixed set. I had no trouble with the
non-swivel set when I had someone else to buck and I could see the gun
and hold it with two hands; have not tried this with the swivel set.
Still trying to decide whether to try to modify the bends in the forward
bottom skin to make it fit without shims; doesn't look too promising.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Solo riveting the H.S.: How? |
I've seen a couple of messages here in the last few days that mentioned a
couple of people who riveted the skins on their horizontal stabs, and did
it solo.
I just finished riveting the skins to my H.S., and while I was able to
rivet the bottom side solo, I am unable to visualize how I could have
riveted the top side solo.
So a question, just out of curiosity, to those who have done it:
How did you do it?
regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Sounds like you either love it or hate it.
I tried the swivel set and did not like it and threw it
in the drawer. I will stay with my normal smooth head set.
It may be that you need to learn to use it properly, like
any tool. I was use to using the fixed head so I prefer it
but I know it can also bite you if not used correctly.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Solo riveting the H.S.: How? |
Text item:
>I've seen a couple of messages here in the last few days that mentioned a
>couple of people who riveted the skins on their horizontal stabs, and did
>it solo.
>I just finished riveting the skins to my H.S., and while I was able to
>rivet the bottom side solo, I am unable to visualize how I could have
>riveted the top side solo.
>So a question, just out of curiosity, to those who have done it:
>How did you do it?
1. Long arms; I am 28" fingertip to shoulder and could just barely reach the far
rivets working solo. Don't worry about creasing the skin as you pull it back to
stick your arm in over the rear spar to buck the front ribs and spar; it is
pretty sturdy.
2. Do not put in the root ribs until you have riveted everything else top and
bottom.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Solo riveting the H.S.: How?
From: "David A. Barnhart" <crl.com!barnhart(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:04:06 -0800 (PST)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Flap Question and Re: Solo Riveting |
> My wife and I both had the same trouble with the swivel set; it tended
> to slide off to the side more. I suspect this is because with the
> non-swivel set you cannot feel that you are holding the gun at an angle
> to the surface
[snip]
I too have used both the swivel set and the fixed -- and like the
fixed set much better. I Guess it's a matter of taste/technique or
something.
> Still trying to decide whether to try to modify the bends in the forward
> bottom skin to make it fit without shims; doesn't look too promising.
>
> FKJ
What's so bad about shims? I know there's an itty bitty extra weight,
but if they're needed, why fight it? Seems like it could be one of these
things we get stuck on not doing even when it's really called for.....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
| Subject: | Riveting the rudder stiffeners |
Our problem turned out to be the Scotch brand "Magic" low stick tape
we used to hold the rivets in place. We were using the "Back-riveting"
tool with the spring loaded plastic guard (Avery). We did use an undersized
drill, but our dimpling dies expanded the holes. Somse how the tape allows the
rivets to "wobble" and run off on one side. This also occurred when
the rivets were set manually with a punch and hammer. After eliminating the
tape we got perfect rivets. By the way, I took a 3/32 X 3/16 flat head
and worked it practically flat on a backing plate. You can certainly
use longer rivets without bends or runs without problems if you use care
and take your time when setting. We have used longer rivets after
removal of a bad rivet in the exzpnded holes. In conclusion, we do not plan
to tape the rivets to the skins for future work. One rudder stiffened today,
Maybe I can stiffen something tonite!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
| Subject: | manual or electric flaps? |
Hi, I'm new to the list. I placed an order for a 6-A. It
should be shipped by the end of February. The questions I
have right now are: should I order manual flaps or is the
electric flap option worth the money? Next, how many clecos
am I going to need at one time and what sizes? What size
rivet gun do you recommend, I'm looking at a 3x. Will this
do the main spar or will I have to use a sledge hammer?
Should I buy a nibbler vs. snips? If I buy a pneumatic
squezer which is better or easier to use, a C-type or
alligator. Thats it for now. Any advise is appreciated.
Kurt Keilbach naek31a(at)prodigy.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Fuel Pressure Question... |
Hello everyone,
When measuring pressure, PSI is commonly used in the US. Are there any other
units that are used in other parts of the world? For instance, Kilograms per
Centimeter, etc. Please list all that you know of.
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | manual or electric flaps? |
>Hi, I'm new to the list. I placed an order for a 6-A. It
>should be shipped by the end of February. The questions I
>have right now are:
>should I order manual flaps or is the electric flap option worth the
>money?
Hi Kurt, welcome to the list. Electric is preferred.
>Next, how many clecos am I going to need at one time and what
>sizes?
Doing both wings at one time, and during the fuselage, I found myself
running-out with 750 3/32 and 300+ 1/8. (Now Randall, Brent, and Mike
each have 200 of mine on loan).
>What size rivet gun do you recommend, I'm looking at a 3x.
A small 3x that is easy to handle would be OK, or a 2X is sufficient.
Get a good at the gun regulator also.
>Will this do the main spar or will I have to use a sledge hammer?
Large hammer and Avery tool is better.
>Should I buy a nibbler vs. snips?
Left, right, and center snips. I Don't recommend the fancy looking
$25 shears from Avery, I hate mine.
>If I buy a pneumatic squezer which
>is better or easier to use, a C-type or alligator. Thats it for now.
>Any advise is appreciated. Kurt Keilbach naek31a(at)prodigy.com.
Can't comment, never used one.
Don Wentz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
ccm.ssd.intel.com!Frank_K_Justice(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Flap Question and Re: Solo Riveting |
Text item: Text_1
>y wife and I both had the same trouble with the swivel set; it tended
>to slide off to the side more. I suspect this is because with the
>non-swivel set you cannot feel that you are holding the gun at an
>angle to the surface. I didn't buy the swivel set until I had my wife
>help do the first wing topskin and I had to drill out over 100 rivets
>(she refuses to buck). When she tried to use the swivel set things
>got worse. I tried it and went back to the fixed set. I had no
>trouble with the non-swivel set when I had someone else to buck and I
>could see the gun and hold it with two hands; have not tried this
>with the swivel set.
Randall/Frank, you guys seem to be real anomalies in this case. I
wouldn't even CONSIDER riveting a skin with the 'old fashioned' flat
set. I even screwed-up my Avery swivel set by trimming-off some of
the rubber rim and still had good results with it. I thought it was
making me push too hard to get the metal on to the skin. I have since
helped other builders using their swivel sets and agree with most that
they are great. Hey, at least if you don't like using them, I
guarantee you can sell them at a bldrs group mtg :-).
The rubber tends to prevent walking and the swivel prevents smilies.
The other thing that I have found is that bucking requires far more
skill than running the gun, so I always train new or one-time helpers
on the gun and do the bucking myself. The main thing to watch for is
that they don't apply too much (or not enough) pressure on the
surface. Come to think of it Frank, this may be why your wife had a
problem with the swivel set 'walking' - too little pressure against
the skin?
>Still trying to decide whether to try to modify the bends in the
>forward bottom skin to make it fit without shims; doesn't look too
>promising.
>FJK
Unfortunately I can't remember my experience with that piece, but I
didn't have to use shims. Is it possible that I used the wing straps
to hold it on tight while drilling? I know I used them on several
other wing skins...
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Riveting the rudder stiffeners (fwd) |
You may also consider doing the actual riveting with the Avery 'deep
device' and a hammer. This provides excellent control and results, in
a variety of riveting situations.
dw
> What do you mean by 'run'?
> If you mean, bend over, then they are probably too long.
> Are you holding the two pieces down tight onto the rivet backing
>plate? If you don't have the plastic sleeve on the rivet set (ie the
>Avery back rivet set tool) then you can use something like a 9/16
>inch box end wrench to hold down the doubler to the skin when you
>back rivet it. For the length, remember you measure from the dimple
>top not the skin.
> From: delphi.com!JERRYWALKER(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 21:25:45 -0500 (EST)
> My partner and I are having problems with the rudder stiffeners. The
> dimpling process gave us "oversized" holes and the rivets "run" when
> being driven. (Back riveted) Has anyone else experienced this problem?
> We have had no problems with the .032 skins on .032 spars and ribs. Is
> this a comon problem with .016 and .025 aluminum? Our dimpling dies were
> purchased from Avery. We did the rudder skin with Avery's deep device
> and the stiffners were done with "aligator squeezer".
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John_M._Brown_at_castelle-HQ(at)oak.castelle.com |
| Subject: | Frey's Jigs in CA? |
I have been thinking about getting a Stephen Frey -6 Jig.
Does anyone in the NorCal area have one in use??
Does anyone on the net have any exp. and or comments about these
jigs?
thanks
Please reply to the list or to
jmbrown(at)netcom.com
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: manual or electric flaps? |
>The questions I
>have right now are: should I order manual flaps or is the
>electric flap option worth the money? Next, how many clecos
>am I going to need at one time and what sizes? What size
>rivet gun do you recommend, I'm looking at a 3x. Will this
>do the main spar or will I have to use a sledge hammer?
>Should I buy a nibbler vs. snips? If I buy a pneumatic
>squezer which is better or easier to use, a C-type or
>alligator. Thats it for now. Any advise is appreciated.
>Kurt Keilbach naek31a(at)prodigy.com.
Lots of questions with two answers (or more)....
Electric vs manual flaps-The manuals work fine, although some say the manual
handle is a little in the way, but some people just like electric. The manual
can be changed to electric after you are flying.
The standard set of clecos that Van's sells is about the best price, good
quality, and the right number unless you are building both wings at the same
time.
Some 2X guns are not powerful enough, and some 3X guns are too powerful. Buy the
2X first to lessen the chance of dinging skins, then get a 3x later if
necessary. Neither will do the spars. The "Avery tool" (that bench-top riveting
tool that many vendors now sell) and a three or four pound hand sledge is
recommended for spars.
You must have snips, including one of the large-sized straight snips so you can
do accurate trimming without distorting the skins. You will also want a cheap
nibbler. In addition, a small router will save you lots of time if you have one.
A pneumatic squeezer is great if you don't have to pay for it, but you won't be
using it that often. Try to borrow one, or at least don't buy one until you
start building and know for sure if you want it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure Question... |
I think some (metric system?) use the "bar" or barimetric pressure
(one atmosphere or about 15 PSI). I have some gauges that I picked up
at a local used speciality gas shop that are graguated in Lbs/Sq.In.
and "Bar". This might be used for higher perssures only????
OK...here's the answer. Any UNIX users out there will find the handy
file "units" under /usr/lib. It lists units of mesure;
Atmosphere = 1.01325+5 nt/m2 (also atm)
Bar = 1+5 nt/m2
Bari = 1-1 nt/m2
nt = newton
m2 = Sq. meter
pascal = nt/m2
and
pieze = 1+3 nt/m2
I assume the "+" and "-" indicate exponent.
I know this is info overload but it's kinna' fun. I can post/send the
file if anybody in intrested.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Riveting the rudder stiffeners |
I never leave the tape on when I backrivet. I attach a piece of cardboard to
one end of the tape, fold it back over itself, lay the piece (flap,elevator,
etc...) on the bucking surface. I then pull the tape back off by pulling the
cardboard. The work and the rivets are in direct contact with the metal
bucking plate. The result is a perfect rivet every time. The Avery tool is
essential however.
Try it!
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
>Jerry Walker
>Our problem turned out to be the Scotch brand "Magic" low stick tape
>we used to hold the rivets in place. We were using the "Back-riveting"
>tool with the spring loaded plastic guard (Avery). We did use an undersized
>drill, but our dimpling dies expanded the holes. Somse how the tape allows
the rivets to "wobble" and run off on one side.
>. In conclusion, we do not plan to tape the rivets to the skins for future
work.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: tools needed? |
>>Should I buy a nibbler vs. snips?
>>Kurt Keilbach naek31a(at)prodigy.com.
>
*** much cut out ***
>
>You must have snips, including one of the large-sized straight snips so you
>can
>do accurate trimming without distorting the skins. You will also want a cheap
>nibbler. In addition, a small router will save you lots of time if you have
>one.
>
When you buy the snips, go for the "Offset" type, they are much easier to
use. The Wiss left and right cutting offset (M6 and M7) ones are available
at Home Depot and hardware stores for about $15 each.
Gil Alexander ...RV6A ... two fuselage skins riveted on...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | newman(at)escmail.orl.mmc.com |
unsubscribe rv-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au> |
One point about the swivel set is not to expect too much of it. I
have only ever used the swivel set but nevertheless quickly found that it is
tolerant to fairly smallish offset angles only.
Another point is that the swivelling ball joint depends on the
integrity and stiffness of the rubber. Two things will happen with wear,
1. the ball will become loose, and
2. the surrouding rubber guard will become less effective due to the
wearing. Having said that, it doesn't really apply if you've relegated it
to "the draw" directly.
Anyhow, I've not dinged the skins at all with it so far, and I've
got the tail feathers all done. I find that the little offset it does allow
to be very handy.
Ray
6A - sheeting the wings.
Remember... Nosewheels look Nicer!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: manual or electric flaps? |
I have an "Alligator" type that's in need of some serious repair, but when
it was working, it wasn't worth much. There is no gap adjustment other than
varying the height of the die sets. This means that you will need a number
of dies that aren't cheap. It's not good for dimpling either since the dies
rarely meet exactly parallel. Don't bother with them, get the "C" type.
>>If I buy a pneumatic squezer which
>>is better or easier to use, a C-type or alligator. Thats it for now.
>>Any advise is appreciated. Kurt Keilbach naek31a(at)prodigy.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm2.jf.intel.com> |
prodigy.com!NAEK31A(at)matronics.com
Text item:
Subject: manual or electric flaps?
Date: 1/24/95 2:37 AM
Don comments:
> Left, right, and center snips. I Don't recommend the fancy
> looking $25 shears from Avery, I hate mine.
Don, did you try beveling the cutting surface back like mine?
After doing that on a grinding wheel and finishing it on a
Scotchbrite wheel, the surface doesn't marr the metal. I love
mine and I do 90% of my trimming with them. They cut very cleanly
and straight.
Earl
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: manual or electric flaps?
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 95 10:17:03 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Frey's Jigs in CA? |
What's a "Frey's" Jig?
>
> I have been thinking about getting a Stephen Frey -6 Jig.
>
> Does anyone in the NorCal area have one in use??
>
> Does anyone on the net have any exp. and or comments about these
> jigs?
>
> jmbrown(at)netcom.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Avery snips |
Yes, I did that, but that isn't what I don't like about them. They seem too
cumbersome and get in the way of the material. Maybe I need some training on
them?
Anyway, mine are available for half price if anyone wants them.
dw
Don comments:
> Left, right, and center snips. I Don't recommend the fancy
> looking $25 shears from Avery, I hate mine.
Don, did you try beveling the cutting surface back like mine? After
doing that on a grinding wheel and finishing it on a Scotchbrite
wheel, the surface doesn't marr the metal. I love mine and I do
90% of my trimming with them. They cut very cleanly and straight.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | FWD> RV engines (From VAN'S Aircraft) |
The following three messages came from Van's Aircraft today. They meant to
send them to the RV-LIST, but used my personal address instead. They will
be posing directly to the list in the future. Note that Van's is not actually
on the list and can be reached at "76455.1602(at)compuserve.com".
Matt Dralle
Matronics
--- Forwarded mail from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RV engines
This article is an attempt to answer the many questions that
arise over the choice of engines used in the RV series of aircraft. (RV-4,
RV-6, and RV-6A)
Originally, the aircraft was designed around the most plentiful
and least expensive aircraft engine available to the homebuilder, the
O-320 Lycoming.
This choice has worked very well in fulfilling the requirements
of the RV's in horsepower and reliability.
It is not, however, the only possible choice. Here at Van's we
have in recent years installed an O-360 in one of our prototypes and
found no problem in it's installation or operation with this aircraft.
The engine choices, O-320 @ 150 or 160 HP and O-360 @ 180 HP, are
the PARALLEL VALVE versions of Lycoming's engine line. They are
available in carbureted or fuel injected versions, and either fixed pitch
or constant speed configurations.
There are other 4 cylinder Lycoming engines that, at first
glance, would seem to work. Questions are often asked about the IO-360
200 hp engine. Van's does NOT recommend this engine, for a couple of
reasons. First, it is more power than the airframe was designed to take
and will power the airplane very close to red line in cruise. Just
because you can make an airplane go faster does not mean that is safe to
do so. Second, the ANGLE VALVE design of this engine means that it is
wider, and will not fit the RV cowls without completely rebuilding the
front of the airplane. Please understand the difference between the
IO-360 180 hp parallel valve engine and the IO-360 200 hp angle head
engine: same displacement, different engine.
Not every O-320 or 0-360 will fit. Lycoming has been generous
over the years, essentially custom building engine versions for specific
airframes. Carburetors, fuel injectors, induction tubes, governors and
other items have all been mounted in different places to satisfy the
needs of aircraft designers.
Engine configurations that cause problems on RVs include
HORIZONTAL DRAFT CARBURETORS or INJECTOR BODIES, that are mounted on the
rear of the oil sump. The 0-360-A4K is one example of a problem. These
engines use horizontal draft carburetors mounted at the very rear of the
sump, facing the firewall, and will not work on the RV's. Another problem
area is the "H" engine. Lycoming produced an entirely different O-320 for
the 76-77 Cessna 172. The fuel pump was mounted over the front left
cylinder, the accessory case at the rear is integral and a different
shape. As supplied, the RV mount will not fit with this engine, but
modifying the mount is not difficult, and several RVs have been flown
with this engine. In general if the induction system faces forward or is
mounted toward the front of the oil sump then interference with the mount
itself is not very likely.
Lycomings also come with three different engine mounting systems.
The most common and modern is the DYNAFOCAL TYPE I which has a bolt attach
angle of 30 degrees to a line that would parallel the crankshaft. The
second most common is the CONICAL which has bolts which directly parallel
the crankshaft. The third and least common is the DYNAFOCAL TYPE II
which has a bolt angle of only 14 degrees to the crankshaft. Van's can
supply mounts to accomodate any one of these engines.
Another major consideration would also be that the engine have a
mechanical fuel pump on the accessory housing. Many high wing aircraft
do not use engine driven fuel pumps. If one of these engines is to be
used on an RV then either a machining job is in order or a new accessory
case must be located.
Another caution is that in the RV-4 if a constant speed propellor
is to be used, then the engine's propellor governor location should be on
the accessory case as opposed to those engines with governors located
near the propellor flange. The front mounted governors can be used but
only with a cowl modification to accomodate them.
A nearly complete list of these engines is included in the engine
section (chapter 11) of the RV construction manual.
Performance differences with the differing horsepowers are not as
great as many assume. Other things being equal, the 180 will give
another 200'/min in climb and about 6-7 mph in cruise. Of course, HP
comes from GASOLINE, not the engine, so if you insist in putting in a
bigger engine and keeping the throttle in to enjoy that extra
performance, it will cost you at the pump. Performance with the smaller
engines is better than just about anything else in the sky, so ask
yourself "is it worth it"? Keeping these caveats in mind, most O-320 and
O-360 engines will work in RVs.
So far, no alternative engine has come forth to rival the Lycoming
for power-to-weight, reliability, or (surprisingly enough) cost.
Summary: most O-320/O-360 150/160/180 hp Lycoming engines will work in
the RV designs, but there are enough variations to warrant serious
research. A call to us here at Van's is a good idea if you have any
doubt.
--- End of forwarded message from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | FWD> Fuel Senders... |
--- Forwarded mail from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
From: "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Fuel senders
To: RV builders Date: 01/13/95 11:58:25
Recently VAN's aircraft has been shipping a new design (better) of
Stewart-Warner fuel senders under the old part #'s F-385B and F-385C.
The only real difference is in how the device's float arm must be bent in
order to be used in the confines of the RV wing tanks.
First, the units need to be mounted in the wing tanks with the plastic
lever arm in the UP position, that is the pivot point of the arm will be
below the lever.
Second, it should be noted that the axle point has a hole through it and
this is to be used for retention of the float arm.
Finally, the best way to fit the supplied float to the sender is to mock
it up with some easily bent wire, like a coat hanger or copper wire, so
as to get it correct before bending the actual float arm. My
experience is that it first takes a bend through the axle hole to fix the
pivot point then a straight run of about 3", then a right angle bend
(down) and a final 3" run to the float.
This results in the float excursion being pretty much from the bottom to
top of the tank without actually hitting the top or bottom tank skins.
Another tip is that the resistance of the sender should be low (20-30
ohms) when the tank is full and high (240 or so ohms) when empty.
This can easily be measured with an ohmmeter.
Tom Green @ VAN's.
--- End of forwarded message from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
--- Forwarded mail from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
From: "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Slosh
1/18/95
We get a lot if inquires here at Van's about the use of the
sloshing compound (RANDOLF 912) referred to in the older construction
manuals. At one time, this was considered a good idea for two reasons.
One, it provided a way of fixing any pinhole leaks that may have
developed in the riveting of the tanks. Second, it may provide some
protection for the PRO-SEAL against formulations of auto fuel.
The problem that has arisen over the last few years is that in a
few tanks for some unknown mysterious reason the slosh has started to
come loose and accumulate in the gascolator screens of a few aircraft.
We now feel that the consequences outweigh the benefits of the
slosh and for that reason no longer recommend its use. A good job of
riveting with PRO-SEAL is more than satisfactory in sealing the tanks.
For those who have used the slosh and want to get it out, it is
necessary to flycut a 3-4" hole in each bay of the fuel tank baffle so
that you can reach in physically and remove the compound. Some solvents
like Acetone can soften it but we have found nothing so far that works
better than scraping it out. When you have all of it out that you can,
then a simple plate of .040 aluminum can be pop riveted with PRO-SEAL
over each of the access holes using blind pop rivets. Tom @ VAN's.
--- End of forwarded message from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark60195(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Solo Riveting - Thanks! |
Thanks for all the info folks! I didn't realize the riveting was such a
small part of the building process. As far as getting married to help
with the riveting goes... I've got a friend in San Diego who was just
about to buy a Lancair IV kit who just got engaged, well guess what?
Looks like he's gonna stay a (rental) Cessna driver for quite awhile!
Consider yourself's lucky you have understanding wives! But I
might give the "wanna do a little bucking in my garage" line a try!
-Mark Lakomski
Hoffman Estates, IL
( 36, still single and looking to build a plane!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FWD> RV engines (From VAN'S Aircraft) |
I can attest to why you want to use one of the 'approved' models.
I used an O-360-A2G, which is basically an A1A with plugged crank,
different mags, and (this is a biggie) rear-mounted carb. I foolishly
decided to NOT spend $250 and convert to std bottom sump. BIG MISTAKE.
It ended--up costing untold hours of effort. My first exhaust didn't
fit and I had to pay Vetterman to custom build one that would (he did a
great job at a reasonable price), I had to stop everything and send my
motor mount in for modification (more time and $$), and, I had to buy
almost $200 worth of special adapters to make the Airflow Performance FI
fit.
Even tho all of the vendors were extremely helpful, the extra time and
$$ could have been avoided had I just spent the $250 up front. This
$250 was not bad considering my engine had 11 hours on a cermichrome
major and I paid $9K for it, complete.
So, listen to Van's, they're usually right!
dw
--- Forwarded mail from "VAN's AIRCRAFT" <76455.1602(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RV engines
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | steveha(at)tekadm1.cse.tek.com |
| Subject: | Props & Cowl pins |
Last Sunday I had an experience with a cowl pin eating into a
prop that other folks may be interested in.
I left Hillsboro (OR), flew to Scappoose for gas. I ran into
Don Wentz there and chatted for a while. We even talked about the
prop design (Aymar Demuth) and how straight the trailing edge was.
(Happy Birthday Don!, sorry I didn't make the party, I was in
Tillamook working on the airplane!)
________________________________________________________________________________
with Andy Hanna in Van's RV-6A for some air-air video. I flew directly to
Tillamook OR, about 50 miles away and parked right next to Carl Hay's
RV6 and Dan Delano's RV6. We toured the air museum there, talked with
Carl & Dan for a few minutes, then went out to the plane to fly home.
Have you ever just hopped in a plane and flew it without a preflight
because you just landed a few minutes ago and knew it was fine? Here
is a good reason not to! Fortunately, I DID do a preflight and found
that the right cowl pin had broken and worked forward. It had eaten
about 0.5" into the prop and chunked out some even larger pieces!
If you aren't familiar with the Oregon coast range between Tillamook
and the Willamette valley, there is damn few places in there that I
would want to put a plane down. I shudder to think what could have
happened if either the cowl had come off or the prop had failed!
Remember the damage had to have all occurred in a flight of less than 70
miles. There definitely was no damage at Scappoose, Don & I were looking
at and talking about the prop. I could easily have missed it at
Vernonia, I did not do a thorough preflight there, only shut down
long enough to unload my boy, help push a TriPacer into the hangar
then load up and go.
The cowl hinge pin was secured by a loop bent in the end and secured
by a bolt into a nutplate in the cowl. The pin had broken right at
the bend, the bolt was still securely holding the broken off loop to
the cowl. Obviously, inspection and care in handling of these pins
is the first step - Don't yank on them with nice serrated pliers!
The plane had just been annualled and the pins had been removed and
reinstalled then. Another idea may be to heat the pin before bending.
Fortunately for us, Dan and Carl were at Tillamook. I jumped in with
Carl and got a ride back to Hillsboro. My partner got a ride to Vernonia
with Dan. Del (my partner) hopped in our trusty TriPacer, flew to Hillsboro
where I had gathered a spare prop (can't have too many props!), all the
tools I thought we might need and then some, extra spacer plates, two
cheeseburgers and a couple large cokes. Armed with food, tools, and
prop we headed back to Tillamook. Meanwhile, Dan Delano had flown to
Dietz airpark where he had a spare spinner backplate and we both landed
at Tillamook within a few minutes of each other. Dan, Del, and I
got the new prop on and torqued. Carefully rebent the hinge pin and
re-secured (checked the other one!!!) and flew home. I logged my first
night landing in a RV-6.
Given the fact that the cowl pin broke, everthing worked out absolutely
as best as it possibly could have.
- Nobody was hurt, neither the prop or cowling came off.
- The problem was caught on the preflight.
- Generous help and rides were available (Thanks to Dan & Carl)
- A spare prop, spacers, and backplate was readily available.
- We had another airplane available to us to shuttle props/people.
- Very little damage was done, other than to the prop which may
even be rebuildable.
Ken and I fit a new spinner and backplate to the prop last night. The old
spinner/backplate is fine, it just doesn't fit the new prop... If we get
the Aymar prop rebuilt, there will be two complete prop/spinner/backplate
sets for the plane.
Steve Harris
DPL HW Engineering
627-2454 Voice
627-5548 Fax
email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM Public Key Available
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Aircraft Grade Wire... |
Hello all,
I need a good source for aircraft grade wire. I am looking for the type
that is typically used for microphone and headphone installations. This
type has a braided sheild and 1, 2 and 3 insulated conductors. I need a source
for this wire in bulk, at a low cost, and in a 2 conductor plus shield and
and a 3 conductor plus shield variety. 20 or 22 gauge wire is best.
Do you know of any sources for this type of wire? I'm looking for 500 ft reels
and also a source for small quanities as well. What kind of pricing is
available for this type of wire??
Thanks for the help!
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | smiller(at)ims.advantis.com (Steven Miller) |
| Subject: | Re: Van's on compuserve |
>--------------
>
>My suggestion to him was to publish their e-mail address to the list
>and just ask that people address any issues that they want Van's input
>on to BOTH the rv-list and Van's e-mail address. They (Van's) could
>respond with a cc to the rv-list (you don't have to be ON the list to
>mail to it, right?) and that way they would only have to read things
>specifically directed to them, but everyone else would be able to
>benefit from their responses and give their own input to the list as
>well...
>
>--------------
Yes, anyone can post to the rv-list, even if they ar not a part of it. The
only problem I see with the plan above is that it assumes quite a bit of email
background and savy on Van's part. If they're just getting started, it may
take a while before any of what you said above even really makes any sense
to them.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
| Subject: | Test Message - Ignore... |
Matt
--
dralle(at)matronics.com
510-422-4896 Voice
510-422-2425 FAX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
Matt Dralle
--
dralle(at)matronics.com
510-422-4896 Voice
510-422-2425 FAX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Props & Cowl pins (fwd) |
One way to avoid this is to have the hinge pin be removable
from inside the cockpit. That is how I did it for my RV4.
Don't know if you can do it on the RV6 or not. This idea was
published several yrs back, I think Paul McRenolds did it first.
On the 4 you route a longer hinge pin through the side cheeks
and into the cockpit. You have to make a guide for it to go in.
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
I've been real impressed with the folks at Century instruments, and have
worked 4 airshows for them, mostly because I like doing it. Clearly the best
bang for the buck in gyros and instruments. Tell 'em I sent you.
Ed Wischmeyer
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | RV Web Page Update |
Hi All,
The RV dedicated World Wide Web page has been updated with Bob Seibert's
RV-6, John Foy's RV-6A, Don Wentz's RV-6 photos along with Seth Hancock's
RV-6 project photos. Additionally, many new articles have been posted
along with updated information on the EAA. The RV web page is receiving
approximately 1,000 visits per month and growing quickly!
Incidentally, the RV Web page received national attention when it was
referenced in the Advertising Age trade magazine in the January 9th issue.
I am told that this magazine is the major trade journal in the advertising
industry. While doing a review of Apple Computer's presence on the
internet they said this about the RV page....
"The area does get a nice human touch from Apple employees who've designed
their own home pages, however. We especially like John Hovan's homage to
airplanes."
Since this mention, the internet guru's here at Apple say, "Your page is
getting hit like crazy."
As there are a lot of new people who have joined recently, the address to
this World Wide Web home page is...
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
If you would like to have a picture of your project, plane and yourself on
this web page, please mail your photo to me at...
John Hovan
1205 Felsmere Drive
Pflugerville, TX 78660
Thanks to all those who are helping to make the RV Web Page a massive success!
John Hovan
Austin, TX
ps. If you are not familiar with the World Wide Web, stop by your local
bookstore and buy a copy of Internet magazine. It is a very good starting
point. There's a whole other world out there waiting for you! Did you
know you can mail the White House at...http://www.whitehouse.gov/ or view
the CIA World Factbook at http://www.ic.gov/ ? Check it out!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 aol.com!EdWisch(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I've been real impressed with the folks at Century instruments, and have
> worked 4 airshows for them, mostly because I like doing it. Clearly the best
> bang for the buck in gyros and instruments. Tell 'em I sent you.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer
ED
Can you tell me more about Century. Where do you get their
products, why are they so good, do they survive aerobatics?
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
I bought some of my stuff from them, and had them custom rework a true airspeed
for my RV-6. It turned-out real nice.
After my rebuilt horz gyro died (90 hrs) I called them and they recommended the
RC-Allen or SigmaTek (mine was an older IFR). I'm still waiting for them to get
one to rebuild so I can trade my bad one in on it.
dw
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 aol.com!EdWisch(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I've been real impressed with the folks at Century instruments, and have
> worked 4 airshows for them, mostly because I like doing it. Clearly the best
> bang for the buck in gyros and instruments. Tell 'em I sent you.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer
ED
Can you tell me more about Century. Where do you get their
products, why are they so good, do they survive aerobatics?
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: manual or electric flaps? |
I am new to the group also. I started with 300 #40s and 200 #30s, this
number was ok for tail pieces but now as I have two wings in jigs I have
added 200 more #40s and need more. I am using a 2X rivet gun and it works
great, but I did not assemble spar with it. I do have a pneumatic squeezer
with 2.5 and 4 inch C-type jaws. I bought it from Avery and it works great
also. Saves arms and time. I am building a RV6A, have two wings ready to
put skins on, and am enjoying the endless discussion from this list. Tom
______________________________________
Next, how many clecos
am I going to need at one time and what sizes? What size
rivet gun do you recommend, I'm looking at a 3x. Will this
do the main spar or will I have to use a sledge hammer?
Should I buy a nibbler vs. snips? If I buy a pneumatic
squezer which is better or easier to use, a C-type or
alligator. Thats it for now. Any advise is appreciated.
Kurt Keilbach naek31a(at)prodigy.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Seibert" <Bob_Seibert(at)oakqm3.sps.mot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]- Gyros |
Reply to: RE>Re[2]: Gyros
I have 4 Century instruments in the panel of my RV-6. They have performed
very well for 400 hours but do NOT believe you can do aerobatics and have
them survive. Vertical maneuvers will rip the guts out of most horizon gyros.
I have found that hammerheads cost $200 apiece if you do them with the gyros
spun up. It doesn't matter who rebuilds them if they are not designed as
aerobatic capable hardware. The solution was given to me by the guys at
Aircraft Instrument Support Group (a local Austin Tx. instrument shop). They
recommended putting a shutoff valve in the suction line. Their claim was that
if the gryos aren't spun up you won't hurt them when doing stupid things in
your RV. I installed a $5 plastic shutoff valve I found in the hardware store
(1/2 id gate valve). I just shut it off prior to starting the engine and it
has worked great for the occasional aerobatic idiot (me). The suction
regulator valve is able to compensate for this and allow continued air flow
thru the pump. This is a workable solution when you can't find the aerobatic
capable gyros.
Warning - do not shut it off "in flight" because it takes a long time to wind
the gyros down.
If you want a demonstration of gyroscopic forces, hook up a turn & bank to a
12 V power source on your workbench and then do a quick turn with it in your
hands. You will be suprised at the forces those little bearings are putting
up with!
--------------------------------------
Date: 1/26/95 9:09 PM
From: Don Wentz
I bought some of my stuff from them, and had them custom rework a true
airspeed
for my RV-6. It turned-out real nice.
After my rebuilt horz gyro died (90 hrs) I called them and they recommended
the
RC-Allen or SigmaTek (mine was an older IFR). I'm still waiting for them to
get
one to rebuild so I can trade my bad one in on it.
dw
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 aol.com!EdWisch(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I've been real impressed with the folks at Century instruments, and have
> worked 4 airshows for them, mostly because I like doing it. Clearly the
best
> bang for the buck in gyros and instruments. Tell 'em I sent you.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer
ED
Can you tell me more about Century. Where do you get their
products, why are they so good, do they survive aerobatics?
Bob
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 20:11:45 MST
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Gyros
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Re[2]- Gyros |
I thought that was MY idea! I installed such a valve (unfortunately
AFTER I killed my gyro) to try to prevent a repeat incident. That is
the first instrument shop who has agreed that it 'might' work. Glad to
hear another report. I always thought positive G manuevers would be OK.
The possible exception being the vibrations involved. But hey, it's
worth a try.
dw
Reply to: RE>Re[2]: Gyros
I have 4 Century instruments in the panel of my RV-6. They have performed
very well for 400 hours but do NOT believe you can do aerobatics and have
them survive. Vertical maneuvers will rip the guts out of most horizon gyros.
I have found that hammerheads cost $200 apiece if you do them with the gyros
spun up. It doesn't matter who rebuilds them if they are not designed as
aerobatic capable hardware. The solution was given to me by the guys at
Aircraft Instrument Support Group (a local Austin Tx. instrument shop). They
recommended putting a shutoff valve in the suction line. Their claim was that
if the gryos aren't spun up you won't hurt them when doing stupid things in
your RV. I installed a $5 plastic shutoff valve I found in the hardware store
(1/2 id gate valve). I just shut it off prior to starting the engine and it
has worked great for the occasional aerobatic idiot (me). The suction
regulator valve is able to compensate for this and allow continued air flow
thru the pump. This is a workable solution when you can't find the aerobatic
capable gyros.
Warning - do not shut it off "in flight" because it takes a long time to wind
the gyros down.
If you want a demonstration of gyroscopic forces, hook up a turn & bank to a
12 V power source on your workbench and then do a quick turn with it in your
hands. You will be suprised at the forces those little bearings are putting
up with!
--------------------------------------
Date: 1/26/95 9:09 PM
From: Don Wentz
I bought some of my stuff from them, and had them custom rework a true
airspeed
for my RV-6. It turned-out real nice.
After my rebuilt horz gyro died (90 hrs) I called them and they recommended
the
RC-Allen or SigmaTek (mine was an older IFR). I'm still waiting for them to
get
one to rebuild so I can trade my bad one in on it.
dw
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 aol.com!EdWisch(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I've been real impressed with the folks at Century instruments, and have
> worked 4 airshows for them, mostly because I like doing it. Clearly the
best
> bang for the buck in gyros and instruments. Tell 'em I sent you.
>
> Ed Wischmeyer
ED
Can you tell me more about Century. Where do you get their
products, why are they so good, do they survive aerobatics?
Bob
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 20:11:45 MST
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Gyros
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
| Subject: | RV6 tailwheel question. |
I hope this is not a really dumb question but I am trying to
figure out how the tailwheel on the RV6 functions and why a
taildragger is prone to groundloops. Is the tail wheel of the
free castering design or is it steerable? I am also interested
in somebody explaining to me how groundlooping can occur. I'm
trying to figure out why it is a problem in a taildragger but
not in a nosewheel design. I imagine if you step on one brake
too hard the tail will come around because there is a lot more
kinetic energy behind those front wheels than in a plane with
a nosewheel where the two main wheels are somewhat further back.
Once that tail starts to move sideways it will want to keep
going and is going to take more and quicker corrective action
than in a nosedragger. Am I looking at this correctly or am I
totally off base on this one. As you can tell from this I have
never flown a taildragger but I would very much like to learn
more about it's problems.
Thanks,
Andreas Meyer
P.S. Why am I asking? Because I'm trying to figure out which
RV6 I should go for and you might say I should go for the
RV6-A because of my non-experience with taildraggers but
I surely like the way the RV6 sits on the ramp and the fact
that I could someday add floats to it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 tailwheel question. |
Text item:
>but I would very much like to learn
>more about it's problems.
And then again maybe you don't...at least not first hand.
> I surely like the way the RV6 sits on the ramp and the fact
> that I could someday add floats to it.
The RV6 doesn't sit; it squats. The RV6A stands.
Sorry guys; its late on Friday and I couldn't resist
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 16:51:37 EST
Subject: RV6 tailwheel question.
From: Andreas Meyer <hpanis.an.hp.com!meyer(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV6 tailwheel question. |
<9501272151.AA10243(at)hpanis.an.hp.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> I hope this is not a really dumb question but I am trying to
> figure out how the tailwheel on the RV6 functions and why a
> taildragger is prone to groundloops. Is the tail wheel of the
> free castering design or is it steerable? I am also interested
> in somebody explaining to me how groundlooping can occur. I'm
> trying to figure out why it is a problem in a taildragger but
> not in a nosewheel design. I imagine if you step on one brake
> too hard the tail will come around because there is a lot more
> kinetic energy behind those front wheels than in a plane with
> a nosewheel where the two main wheels are somewhat further back.
> Once that tail starts to move sideways it will want to keep
> going and is going to take more and quicker corrective action
> than in a nosedragger. Am I looking at this correctly or am I
> totally off base on this one. As you can tell from this I have
> never flown a taildragger but I would very much like to learn
> more about it's problems.
In a nosedragger, the center of gravity must be ahead of the mains.
This is a stable situation rolling, similar to pulling a 2 wheel cart.
If a small yaw motion happens, the pull on the mains tends to
straighten it out.
In a taildragger the center of gravity has to be behind mains This is
not a stable situation, similar to pushing a 2 wheel cart. When a
small yaw motion begins the center of gravity push tends to amplify
the yaw. If not corrected with the rudder and/or steerable tail
wheel soon, a ground loop results.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | RV6 tailwheel question. (fwd) |
The tailwheel on a RV 4/6 is steerable, but it is not
a 'full swivel' type. It is interconnected to the rudder
cables to make it steerable, through maybe 30 degrees
either side of neutral. Many people have modified theirs
to a full swivel type and I think Van's even offers this
as an option now. This allows you to turn in a sharp
radius (basically pivot on one main wheel). Most certified
tail wheel planes have a full swivel tailwheel, like a
scott or Maul type. Most full swivel stay locked until
the rudder moves the arm 30 degrees and this this frees the
wheel to unlock and swivel 360 degrees.
So the stock RV tail wheel should provide more directional
stability but it is a pain to do a 360 to look for traffic
before takeoff or just pushing the plane around in the hangar.
When doing a takeoff or landing, keeping the stick full back
will help pin the tailwheel to the runway and this will
help provide directional control.
A tail wheel aircraft can ground loop regardless of the type
of tailwheel, however it the tailwheel is 'lockable' or
not full swivel then it would be more difficult to ground loop
it. On my Pitts, I have a 'Hauge' (?sp) lockable tail wheel
and this provides some additional directional stability
for take off and landing. You can release the lock and then
it will swivel 360 degrees.
The ground looping of a tail wheel airplane is just simple
physics. The center of gravity must be BEHIND the main wheels
for a TW model. It is in FRONT of the main wheels for a
tri-gear. Because the CG is behind the main gear, if you
get sideways, the CG will try to pass around and get in front
of the main gear. So if you land with a little crab and don't
correct it the tail will try to pass the nose and you ground
loop. Learning to fly a taildragger is just learning to
sense this visually and applying the proper rudder control to
keep it going straight. On a tri-gear, if you land with
a crab, it will straighten itself out as the CG being fwd of
the gear forces it back straight. That is why it is easy
to pick up bad habits in a tri-gear (get lazy) and then
this will cause problems in a tail-dragger.
When doing a takeoff or landing, keeping the stick full back
will help pin the tailwheel to the runway and this will
help provide directional control.
Got to run. Herman
>
> I hope this is not a really dumb question but I am trying to
> figure out how the tailwheel on the RV6 functions and why a
> taildragger is prone to groundloops. Is the tail wheel of the
> free castering design or is it steerable? I am also interested
> in somebody explaining to me how groundlooping can occur. I'm
> trying to figure out why it is a problem in a taildragger but
> not in a nosewheel design. I imagine if you step on one brake
> too hard the tail will come around because there is a lot more
> kinetic energy behind those front wheels than in a plane with
> a nosewheel where the two main wheels are somewhat further back.
> Once that tail starts to move sideways it will want to keep
> going and is going to take more and quicker corrective action
> than in a nosedragger. Am I looking at this correctly or am I
> totally off base on this one. As you can tell from this I have
> never flown a taildragger but I would very much like to learn
> more about it's problems.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andreas Meyer
>
> P.S. Why am I asking? Because I'm trying to figure out which
> RV6 I should go for and you might say I should go for the
> RV6-A because of my non-experience with taildraggers but
> I surely like the way the RV6 sits on the ramp and the fact
> that I could someday add floats to it.
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
The discussion on disabling gyros during aerobatics is interesting, but I
thought you could by gyros with a "cage" function to lock the gyro during
maneuvers. Am I thinking of something else?
______________________
| Alan Reichert |
| reichera(at)clark.net |
|----------------------|
| RV-4/RV-6 debate |
| in progress |
|______________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 tailwheel question. |
Andreas
I am not recommending this approach but a friend of mine did his
first test flight and tailwheel flight in his RV 6. This would indicate
to me that the RV-6 is fairly easy to land and take off in the tailwheel
configuration. He stated that he had no problems with his first flight.
I know this could generate a lot of discussion on the net about
the merits of getting properly trained in a taildragger, not to mention
the conservative way to conduct your first test flight. I just use this
as evidence that an RV-6 is not as difficult as some other tailwheel
aircraft. I have the same concerns as you and will go with the RV-6.
Bob Busick
RV-6
Rudder almost complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm2.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 tailwheel answer. |
Text item:
A taildragger is inherently unstable on the ground because the center of mass of
the aircraft lies behind the main wheels. It requires corrections from the
pilot to keep it going straight when it's disturbed by a gust or operating
surface imperfection (or a previous pilot overcorrection!). Once a taildragger
starts to swerve, it just keeps getting worse unless it's corrected promptly.
The airplane would really be quite happy swapping ends. Once a swerve gets
underway, the radius of the resulting turn can be alarmingly tight and traverse
180 degrees of rotation or more--hence the term "groundloop." Due to the forces
exerted on the airplane under such centripetal acceleration, the outside wingtip
often drags across the ground. On the upside, it can result in an amazingly
short ground roll on landing :-) Because of the stabilizing effects of thrust,
taildraggers tend to be more stable on the takeoff roll than the landing roll.
Nevertheless, goundloops do occur on takeoff as well.
A trike has a center of mass that lies between the nosewheel and the main gear.
Hence it tends to be stable and track straight by itself. Groundloops still
occasionally occur, but they are relatively uncommon.
Eustace Bohay is working on floats for the 6-A too so that shouldn't be a
problem. On the other hand I agree with you on the subject of appearance.
Before committing to a 6 or 6A, I'd recommend getting a tailwheel checkout.
I've given checkouts to students myself (never in an RV though). I'd say a J-3
or Taylorcraft would be in general somewhat more challenging than an RV-6. A
Luscombe even more so, and a C-120,140,170 or Maule about the same. Rigging of
the gear, wheels, and tailwheel cables and springs can make a big difference
though and turn even the most docile taildragger into a real monster.
Earl
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 16:51:37 EST
Subject: RV6 tailwheel question.
From: Andreas Meyer <hpanis.an.hp.com!meyer(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
I think all the 'modern' gyros do not have a cage function.
The old ones did as most would tumble above 60 degrees or so.
Those were the old larger gyros that were about 5 inches (vs 3.125).
I have been told the modern gyros are non-tumbling so that is
why they may have done away with the cage latch.
I think you can do a loop for example and they will not tumble.
There was some local debate on "is it better to have the gyro running
or have it stopped". Some thought if it was stopped that you could
still slam the internal gimbles against the stops and do dammage.
I don't think this was resolved. For sure there is the gyro forces
if it is spinning. We don't know what happens if it is not spinning and
just gets slammed around. If anyone knows, pls post.
I left gyros out of my RV4 to save weight and $$. I just put in
an electric turn cordinator and put a switch on it so it could be left
off. My 4 is not flying yet so I don't know if the switch is of any value.
Also, I plan to keep the serious stuff for the Pitts (which has no gyros)
except I don't like to fly now unless I can do aerobatics so I expect to
do some aerobatics in the 4.
>
> The discussion on disabling gyros during aerobatics is interesting, but I
> thought you could by gyros with a "cage" function to lock the gyro during
> maneuvers. Am I thinking of something else?
> ______________________
> | Alan Reichert |
> | reichera(at)clark.net |
> |----------------------|
> | RV-4/RV-6 debate |
> | in progress |
> |______________________|
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV6 tailwheel question. |
According to the FARs, you now need a tailwheel endorsement to fly a
tailwheel airplane. EXCEPT: our friend who checked himself out in tailwheels
is covered by 61.31(h)(4), which says, in effect, don't worry about it for
experimentals. Still, some dual would probably be a good idea. RV gears
aren't all that strong...
Ed Wischmeyer, RV-4
CFI
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gyros & Century instruments |
They're in Wichita, they advertise everywhere, and their phone is 800
733-0116. They are primarily an instrument overhaul shop, conscientious and
inexpensive. As for gyros and aerobatics, I tell folks that gyros are a
consumableitem, just like a brake job on a car. Acro just wears things out
lots faster. BTW, Century says that if you're going to do acro, keep the
gyros spun up, and distribute the load across the spinning bearing.
Ed Wischmeyer
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Bounces - New and Improved... |
Hello everyone,
I made a couple of changes to the way the the RV-LIST is handled. I have
added two fields to the header that is created by messages sent to the list.
They are "Errors-To:" and "Precedence: bulk". "Errors-To" will instruct the
remote mailers to automatically send me a meassage when anyone posts a message
that bounces (read that you don't have to send them to me anymore, it happens
automatically). You will still receive bounce messages yourself most of the
time unless the "Precedence: bulk" header kicks in. The "Precedence: bulk"
only works on a few mailers. What it is suppose to do is throw away any
mail that can't be delivered instead of sending a message back saying that
it couldn't be delivered.
So, you will still be temporarily removed from the list if you email address
starts causing a number of bounces, but you don't have to send bounce mail to
me any longer.
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fuel tank questions |
Yesterday a finished dimpling the second fuel tank, I now have two leading
edge pieces riveted and two fuel tank tanks clecoed together to two spars.
The advice forwarded to the rvlist by Matt from Van's Tom Green was very
timely. Tom's hints were right on, I was able to get the new fuel gauge
setup yesterday. So the fearful task of PROSEALing is approaching soon. As
a new member to this list, I have not had a benefit yet of the prior
discussions.
My question is what have people used to clean the surface before Prosealing?
Coleman fuel as Van's suggests, soap and water as one local "expert"
suggests, or alcohol as yet another?
Second question, how do you measure the 10 to 1 ratio of the two parts of
Proseal?
Thirdly, did you assemble your fuel tank in one setting, or multiple as the
video tapes suggest? They broke it up into 4 sessions. Appreciate some
advice from those of you that have been there. Tom
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV6 tailwheel question. |
Text item:
>Frank
> Your too kind. Why don't you just tell us what you really think
>
>(just kidding)
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
I have a simple motivation for choosing a -6A. Fear of embarrasement or worse.
Never really thought one looked better than the other.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: RV6 tailwheel question.
From: Robert Busick <nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 17:42:42 -0700 (MST)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
| Subject: | RV6 tailwheel replies. |
First let me thank everybody that has posted and mailed answers
to my taildragger question. I can't believe how many good
suggestions/answers I've gotten. It goes to show that this is
indeed a very active group.
Some of you suggested that I get a taildragger checkout before
taking my first flight in the RV. You can rest assured that I
am very conservative and the last thing that I would do is take
my first flight in plane that I've built without first getting
thoroughly checked out in a same type or similar plane. This
summer I wanted to get a taildragger endorsment but the local
FBO sold their J-3 and now there are no taildraggers in the
area. I'd have to drive a ways to get checked out in one but am
planning on doing it before deciding.
As luck would have it I spent the weekend at the airport, did
some flying (the weather was gorgeous but quite cold), and I got
to see and talk to the owner of an RV6. It was my first real life
encounter with that plane. What a beauty. It turns out that the
owner did not actually build it but bought it used so he was
unable to answer any questions that I might have had in building
the plane. It had the sliding canopy, a 360 engine, wooden fixed
pitch prop, and nicely appointed panel. I also asked him about how
he liked the tailwheel configuration and he mentioned that it was
real easy to land. I did see him come in for a landing and I could
not believe how quickly it came to a full stop. It must have been
the shortest landing that I've ever seen done on that runway.
Unfortunately the owner seemed to be in a hurry and I did not get
to talk to him for more than 5 minutes. By the way, this was at
the Lawrence airport in MA.
Andreas
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV6 tailwheel answer. |
Gotta agree with Earl on this, I found the TCraft more difficult than
the RV-6, with the C-140 even easier.
dw
>Before committing to a 6 or 6A, I'd recommend getting a tailwheel checkout.
>I've given checkouts to students myself (never in an RV though). I'd
>say a J-3 or Taylorcraft would be in general somewhat more challenging than an
>RV-6. A Luscombe even more so, and a C-120,140,170 or Maule about the same.
>Rigging of the gear, wheels, and tailwheel cables and springs can make a big
>difference though and turn even the most docile taildragger into a real
>monster.
Earl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: RV6 tailwheel question. |
Having flown formation with both, I can say that in the air they both look
great. I do think the -6 is a little more aggressive looking on the ground,
however.
BUT, the -6A is way easier to taxi since it has a nosewheel, and due to the
difficulty of seeing over the nose of the -6 (not as bad in the -4 as it has a
narrower cowl and slightly lower mains).
I used to advocate the -6A over the -6, expecially if you have no taildragger
time. But, now that I have mome experience in my -6, it's not that bad as
taildraggers go. Try to get a ride around the airport in each and decide if you
want to put up with craning your neck to see over the cowl...
BTW Frank, that wasn't you who landed a Grumman Cheetah/Tiger on I-5 near Albany
yesterday was it? Of course, the local news said "A single engine Cessna had a
forced..." while showing video of the Grumman parked neatly on the shoulder.
You know how they are: small airplane? must be a Cessna...
Back to the -6 vs -6A question: It's like the C/S vs wood prop thing, YOU have
to decide which feature of each type is most important to YOU.
dw
>Frank
> Your too kind. Why don't you just tell us what you really think
>
>(just kidding)
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
I have a simple motivation for choosing a -6A. Fear of embarrasement or worse.
Never really thought one looked better than the other.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.co.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV6 tailwheel answer. |
Text item:
Earl,
What do you think? Is the TD (RV comparison) better on rough surface?
MikeW
A taildragger is inherently unstable on the ground because the center
of mass of
the aircraft lies behind the main wheels. It requires corrections from the
pilot to keep it going straight when it's disturbed by a gust or operating
surface imperfection (or a previous pilot overcorrection!). Once a
taildragger
starts to swerve, it just keeps getting worse unless it's corrected promptly.
The airplane would really be quite happy swapping ends. Once a swerve gets
underway, the radius of the resulting turn can be alarmingly tight
and traverse
180 degrees of rotation or more--hence the term "groundloop." Due
to the forces
exerted on the airplane under such centripetal acceleration, the outside
wingtip
often drags across the ground. On the upside, it can result in an amazingly
short ground roll on landing :-) Because of the stabilizing effects
of thrust,
taildraggers tend to be more stable on the takeoff roll than the landing
roll.
Nevertheless, goundloops do occur on takeoff as well.
A trike has a center of mass that lies between the nosewheel and the main gear.
Hence it tends to be stable and track straight by itself. Groundloops still
occasionally occur, but they are relatively uncommon.
Eustace Bohay is working on floats for the 6-A too so that shouldn't be a
problem. On the other hand I agree with you on the subject of appearance.
Before committing to a 6 or 6A, I'd recommend getting a tailwheel checkout.
I've given checkouts to students myself (never in an RV though). I'd
say a J-3
or Taylorcraft would be in general somewhat more challenging than an RV-6. A
Luscombe even more so, and a C-120,140,170 or Maule about the same.
Rigging of
the gear, wheels, and tailwheel cables and springs can make a big difference
though and turn even the most docile taildragger into a real monster.
Earl
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 16:51:37 EST
Subject: RV6 tailwheel question.
From: Andreas Meyer <hpanis.an.hp.com!meyer(at)matronics.com>
27 Jan 95
Fri, 27 Jan 9
Text item: External Message Header
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Subject: Re: RV6 tailwheel answer.
From: Earl W Brabandt <ccm2.jf.intel.com!Earl_W_Brabandt(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 16:38:35 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: RV6 tailwheel question. |
Text item:
>BTW Frank, that wasn't you who landed a Grumman Cheetah/Tiger on I-5 near
>Albany yesterday was it? Of course, the local news said "A single engine
>Cessna had a forced..." while showing video of the Grumman parked neatly on the
>shoulder. You know how they are: small airplane? must be a Cessna...
Nooooo! That wasn't me! But you will notice that it didn't look like it had been
ground-looped.
Seriously, I should add to my previous message that I consider myself a slightly
below the average pilot in responsiveness and control co-ordination. That is why
the -6A makes more sense for me. Earl tried to teach me in a Piper Cub and after
about three hours was still not quite to the point where I was ready to solo;
this after about 100 recent hours in Cessnas. On the other hand, it is very
gusty most of the winter around here but I haven't heard of anybody losing their
RV to it.
Frank J.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re[3]: RV6 tailwheel question.
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 12:00:09 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
[message deleted]
> ______________________
> | Alan Reichert |
> | reichera(at)clark.net |
> |----------------------|
> | RV-4/RV-6 debate |
> | in progress |
> |______________________|
You must be feeling brave to blurt THAT out on the -list! :-)
Who are you debating with besides yourself? Want some help?
(Say no if you know what's good for you! :-) :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 tailwheel question. |
[question about conventional gear dynamics deleted]
> Thanks,
>
> Andreas Meyer
The question about why tailwheels are harder to handle on the
ground has already been answered so I won't address it.
I mainly wanted to address your P.S.:
>
> P.S. Why am I asking? Because I'm trying to figure out which
> RV6 I should go for and you might say I should go for the
> RV6-A because of my non-experience with taildraggers but
> I surely like the way the RV6 sits on the ramp and the fact
> that I could someday add floats to it.
I'm sure I won't be the only one to suggest going out and finding
a tailwheel to get checked out in (preferably a couple of different
models) so you can see for yourself. I think it'd be a really bad
idea to choose a tailwheel airplane if you have no experience in
them, not because I think you'd go out and ground loop it, but because
until you play with them a bit you never know if that's what you really
want as your personal airplane.
Also, Eustace Bowhay is currently working on an RV-6A float kit,
and I've talked to him on several occasions about it -- he's building
an RV-6A for the prototype right now, so he's obviously committed to
it, especially since he prefers the taildragger personally.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Source for nut-plates? |
I'm looking for a source for single leg and corner nut-plates for #8
screws -- countersunk type. I was able to get a few of these from a
local custom builder but his source (Liberty Aircraft I believe) has
since dried up. These are the same as the K1100-08 nut plates that
Van's supplies, except that they're single leg or corner type. It
seems that the regular #8 nut-plates are available in single leg/corner
but the countersunk type are harder to come by. I've tried all the
usual sources (Aircraft Spruce, Wag-Aero, Columbia Airmotive). Any
suggestions?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | support (Matronics Technical Support 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | FWD> Builder's Log/Inspection |
Be sure to use "rv-list(at)matronics.com" to post messages...
"rv-list-request(at)matronics.com" is for administrative requests...
Matt
--- Forwarded mail from hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin)
This question is for those of you who have completed an FAA sign-off.
What are they looking for in the logs? I have not had the opportunity
to pick up the FAA package from the local GADO office. I am keeping a
log of all my activity and the hours spent, in addition to the photos
that I am taking. I know they do not do pre-closure inspections, but do
they expect to see interior pictures etc.. to see if you have proper
shop heads and construction ?
I am about to skin my horizontal stab.(Yes, dimpling all but the rear
spar- thanks to all the great discussions I have seen here. :) )
I ask now...later may be too late.
Thanks,
Harold
RV-6A //only 11,600 more rivets to go//
--- End of forwarded message from hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Re: Source for nut-plates? |
Try B&F Aircraft Supply
9524 West Gulfstream Road
Frankfort, IL 60423
815-469-2473
>I'm looking for a source for single leg and corner nut-plates for #8
>.....
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM-SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com |
| Subject: | Source for nut-plates? -Reply |
Try Freeman Aviation, Griffin, GA at
800-635-5631. They had the #10 closed end
nutplates I bought for the sending units.
Seem to have some different stuff.
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Fellow RVer's,
My name is Tony Kirk and I live in Sylvania, OH. (suburb of Toledo).
I started on my RV6A empennage this summer, progress is slow but I figured at
the outset with my budget and growing family this would be at least a 6 year
project, maybe 10, who knows? It doesnt matter how long it takes to finish,
I'll work on it as time and/or money allows. We're expecting our fifth child
Oshkosh week! (Damn!, no trip to Mecca this year). Hopefully, by the time
I'm ready to hang a engine on my RV someone will have debugged a safe and affo
rdable alternative.
I started using AOL 12/26/94 and was surprised to find such a large RV
message board going there. It really surprised me when I found this Internet
site! This is GREAT! I need all the info I can get. No one in my local EAA
chapter 582 is building an RV, so any info is good reading.
Thanks for re-posting Van's Messages from Compu$erve, I can't afford another
on-line service.
Tony Kirk
The beginning of a long journey starts with the first step. My HS is in the
jig!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[5]: RV6 tailwheel question. |
I knew it wasn't yours, wrong color. I saw that the pilot 'fixed' the supposed
fuel contamination and they blocked the freeway and he took off. That was fun
to watch (on the news).
It was pretty windy when I was getting the TCraft checkout and it took over 6
hours to solo (almost as long as my original solo in a TraumaHawk). You won't
be disappointed in choosing the -6A. The ground ops are VERY comfy compared to
my -6 (ALL ground ops, not just take offs/landings). In addition, my wife is
starting to talk about taking some lessons. If that happens, I'll really wish
I
had a nosedragger.
I came very close to loosing my -6 when I had about 13 hours on it. Was landing
at Mulino in a xwind, bounced it a bit and it drifted about 10 feet sideways
before the next contact. I stood hard on the rudder after touchdown and
listened to the downwind tire squeal for a few seconds. Yikes! It held, but I
was a little freaked. That is the closest I have come, and I suppose my
additional experience helps me now, but that was more than a little exciting!!!
Since most runways are pretty wide, if there is a good xwind, I cheat it by
landing diagonal to the centerline, reducing the angle of the xwind. No sense
pushing my luck.
dw
>Seriously, I should add to my previous message that I consider myself a
>slightly below the average pilot in responsiveness and control co-ordination.
>That is why the -6A makes more sense for me. Earl tried to teach me in a >Piper
>Cub and after about three hours was still not quite to the point where >I was
>ready to solo; this after about 100 recent hours in Cessnas. On the >other
>hand, it is very gusty most of the winter around here but I haven't >heard of
>anybody losing their RV to it.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David.Rodenhiser(at)Corp.Sun.COM (David Rodenhiser) |
who rv-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randyt(at)rmii.com (Randy Treadwell) |
| Subject: | Stop RV Group Membership Please |
Stop RV Group Membership Please
==============================================================================
:-} Randy randyt(at)rmii.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david(at)powwow.Corp.Sun.COM (David Rodenhiser) |
| Subject: | Anybody out there |
Hey!
Is there anybody out there?
It's awfully quiet.....
Must all be out in your hangers, hard at work ;-)
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896) |
Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a test
message to stir up some trouble if its working...
So, nose wheels are for weenies...
Matt
--
dralle(at)matronics.com
510-422-4896 Voice
510-422-2425 FAX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Anybody out there |
Text item:
>Must all be out in your hangers, hard at work ;-)
Wish I was!!
Text item: External Message Header
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and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Anybody out there
From: powwow.Corp.Sun.COM!david(at)matronics.com (David Rodenhiser)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:38:18 +0800
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Message... |
Text item:
DARE YA' TO SAY THAT TO THE SPACE SHUTTLE PILOTS!
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Test Message...
Date: 2/2/95 5:03 PM
Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a test
message to stir up some trouble if its working...
So, nose wheels are for weenies...
Matt
--
dralle(at)matronics.com
510-422-4896 Voice
510-422-2425 FAX
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
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Subject: Test Message...
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 14:20:38 -0800
From: matronics.com!dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
OK, guys, I just could not resist chiming in over this
taildragger vs nosedragger stuff.
I'm building an RV-6. Whay? 'cause I think it looks
sexier than the RV-6A. No other reason. Do I have
any tailwheel time? nope (well... I got a tailwheel
checkout in a Citabria about 10 years ago.)
I view learning to handle a taildragger as just
another skill to learn -- and I've yet to fail
when I have tried to learn a new skill. If I was able
to learn to shoot an NDB approach with the airplane jumping
up and down, me hanging onto it, Canter asking me to copy
a clearance, and my pencil bouncing around on the floor,
I think I can learn to handle a taildragger.
Yea, maybe that's a little macho. And maybe it does have
a slight air of superiority, but although I don't
consider myself a 'natural' pilot, most people consider
me to be an excellent one. And the reason is I work
hard at being good. And I view working hard at being
good with a taildragger as no different.
So, I say: Be Happy. Choose the airplane you like
the best.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Test + rudder stiffener question |
..
> So, nose wheels are for weenies...
... Right on!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "de Solla, C." <de_solla_c(at)jpmorgan.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Test Message... |
Concorde pilots too! Ever noticed that Concorde has got a tailwheel! It
lands with such a high angle of attack that it needs one to prevent it
striking the gound.
Carol de Solla, London, UK
RV-6
_______________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley on Thu, Feb 2, 1995 23:09 |
| Subject: | Re: Test Message... |
Text item:
DARE YA' TO SAY THAT TO THE SPACE SHUTTLE PILOTS!
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Date: 2/2/95 5:03 PM
Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a
test
message to stir up some trouble if its working...
So, nose wheels are for weenies...
Matt
--
dralle(at)matronics.com
510-422-4896 Voice
510-422-2425 FAX
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Test Message...
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 14:20:38 -0800
From: matronics.com!dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896)
(8.6.9/SMI-4.1
95
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Test Message... |
The pilot of the current Shuttle mission is female. I wonder if she feels
more macho with a "Nose Wheel"?
>
>Text item:
>
>DARE YA' TO SAY THAT TO THE SPACE SHUTTLE PILOTS!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Message... |
On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896 wrote:
>
> Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a test
> message to stir up some trouble if its working...
>
> So, nose wheels are for weenies...
>
> Matt
Now you've done it!
- Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice at co1ccm1 <Frank_K_Justice_at_co1ccm1(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Test + rudder stiffener question |
> > So, nose wheels are for weenies...
> ... Right on!!
And so are seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and tire chains. Right?
Cowardly and normally quiet about it....FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: weenie wheels? |
>
> I'm building an RV-6. Whay? 'cause I think it looks
> sexier than the RV-6A. No other reason. Do I have
> any tailwheel time? nope (well... I got a tailwheel
> checkout in a Citabria about 10 years ago.)
>
There's nothing like a grand entrance, and a well executed three point
will always garner respect from seasoned pilots. These guys are a welth
of info, and sometimes you have to "prove" yourself to them before they
will give you the time of day. You can learn more from an old guy that
has been at it for 50 years than you can from a room full of hot-shot ATP
wanna,-be's. And it doesn't cost you a dime.
There's also the ability to make a tight turn when you are taxing up
to your tie-down/hanger. This is like a controlled ground-loop. If you
do it just right, you end up with the tail feathers pointed into the
tie-down (extra points for pulling the mixture to Idle cut-off as you
approch the turn). There's precious little opportunity to be cool in an
airplane. Get it when you can. Just don't let it get you.
Chris
P.S. I know, I know, 85W is a nose dragger. I rent a T-craft now and
then. Guess wich one is more fun.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Message... |
>
> So, nose wheels are for weenies...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Matt
>
This is sure to get the wires hummin'!
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "'John H. Henderson'" <johnh(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
People are complaining about no traffic. Here's a sad story.
I have been inspired by stories of people building planes in
apartments. I also recently located and joined my local EAA
chapter. One of the members is a partner in Slipstream
Technologies, which builds kitplane components for people,
specializing in composites and experts in Glasairs and SeaWinds.
They only use about 1/4 of their 40,000 sq. ft. shop and rent
space to homebuilders. The shop has tools and is wired for
air. I built up a little money in savings, and was seriously
considering starting the empennage.
Last night, my EAA chapter had a joint meeting with a chapter in Wetumpka
about 60 miles
from here. Apparently, my name failed to get on the newsletter
mailing list, so I did not receive the instructions to the location.
I called the chapter president and he gave me instructions, including
a name for an Interstate exit that didn't exist. I couldn't
find the place, and I was already going to have put 150 miles
on my car, and when I found the place in a phone book, I would
have been over an hour late, so I started home down dark, two-lane,
Alabama 14 when what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a
miniature sleigh and eight tiny reindeer...Well...actually not...
just one deer...which waited by the side of the road until I was
there and tried bolting in front of me. $2000 worth of damage.
No plane building now until I'm out of school. :(
C23456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012
C
C John H. Henderson E-mail: johnh(at)eng.auburn.edu
C Dept. of Electrical Engineering Finger: johnh(at)finger.eng.auburn.edu
C Auburn University Mosaic: http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~johnh
C
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: weenie wheels? |
Don't be SHY Dave! There is no need for modesty here. I've also chosen to
build a "-6" and I feel it's even sexier that the "-4". (all deference to Rion)
On the serious side, its' taking a long time to get this far with my project
and at the rate I'm building, it's going to take lot longer. The one thing
I don't want is to get to the end of the building phase and not get the
maximum enjoyment out of the flying stage. Part of that enjoyment will also
come from the developing my skills as a tailwheel pilot and part will also
come from just seeing it sitting on the ramp. There are also the reasons for
choosing side-by-side that ended in the decision to build a "-6".
I agree, though, that it's a personal decision that should take into account
all of the builder's.
Bob Neuner
bobn@ims
>
>Yea, maybe that's a little macho. And maybe it does have
>a slight air of superiority, but although I don't
>consider myself a 'natural' pilot, most people consider
>me to be an excellent one. And the reason is I work
>hard at being good. And I view working hard at being
>good with a taildragger as no different.
>
>
>Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>RV-6 sn 23744
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Test Message... |
A quote from the Guy Code:
"Real men fly taildraggers"
Bob
RV-6
On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Matt G. Dralle 510-422-4896
wrote:
>
> Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a test
> message to stir up some trouble if its working...
>
> So, nose wheels are for weenies...
>
> Matt
>
>
> --
>
> dralle(at)matronics.com
> 510-422-4896 Voice
> 510-422-2425 FAX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | RE: Test Message... |
What's with all you weenies who need a 3rd wheel anyway -- I'm
going to leave it off altogether! Just _think_ how much weight I'll
save! :-) :-) :-)
>
>
> Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a
> test
> message to stir up some trouble if its working...
>
> So, nose wheels are for weenies...
>
> Matt
>
>
> --
>
> dralle(at)matronics.com
> 510-422-4896 Voice
> 510-422-2425 FAX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: weenie wheels |
>
> > > So, nose wheels are for weenies...
> > ... Right on!!
>
> And so are seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and tire chains. Right?
>
> Cowardly and normally quiet about it....FKJ
>
Frank! You're going to equip your RV with anti-lock brakes and tire
chains???!!!
:-)
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rudder bracket lightening hole |
I have held off riveting my Rudder together, because I was considering
adding rudder trim. I've decided not to add a trim tab after all but have a
question before finish it.
Has anyone thought of cutting a lightening hole in the bracket which rivets
to the lower end rib and the yoke? It seems a hole right in the bottom
wouldn't hurt and would save some weight in the tail.
bobn(at)ims.com
Bob Neuner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: weenie wheels? |
Text item:
If you build it...
You will learn.
jmw
OK, guys, I just could not resist chiming in over this
taildragger vs nosedragger stuff.
I'm building an RV-6. Whay? 'cause I think it looks
sexier than the RV-6A. No other reason. Do I have
any tailwheel time? nope (well... I got a tailwheel
checkout in a Citabria about 10 years ago.)
I view learning to handle a taildragger as just
another skill to learn -- and I've yet to fail
when I have tried to learn a new skill. If I was able
to learn to shoot an NDB approach with the airplane jumping
up and down, me hanging onto it, Canter asking me to copy
a clearance, and my pencil bouncing around on the floor,
I think I can learn to handle a taildragger.
Yea, maybe that's a little macho. And maybe it does have
a slight air of superiority, but although I don't
consider myself a 'natural' pilot, most people consider
me to be an excellent one. And the reason is I work
hard at being good. And I view working hard at being
good with a taildragger as no different.
So, I say: Be Happy. Choose the airplane you like
the best.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: weenie wheels?
From: "David A. Barnhart" <crl.com!barnhart(at)matronics.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:00:32 -0800 (PST)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Hi all,
I just can't let this one go!!
John, Did the reindeer have a red nose???
Hang in there buddy, it will all come to pass!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Sad story
AARNet_Gateway
Date: 03/2/95 9:53 AM
People are complaining about no traffic. Here's a sad story.
I have been inspired by stories of people building planes in
apartments. I also recently located and joined my local EAA
chapter. One of the members is a partner in Slipstream
Technologies, which builds kitplane components for people,
specializing in composites and experts in Glasairs and SeaWinds.
They only use about 1/4 of their 40,000 sq. ft. shop and rent
space to homebuilders. The shop has tools and is wired for
air. I built up a little money in savings, and was seriously
considering starting the empennage.
Last night, my EAA chapter had a joint meeting with a chapter in Wetumpka
about 60 miles
from here. Apparently, my name failed to get on the newsletter
mailing list, so I did not receive the instructions to the location.
I called the chapter president and he gave me instructions, including
a name for an Interstate exit that didn't exist. I couldn't
find the place, and I was already going to have put 150 miles
on my car, and when I found the place in a phone book, I would
have been over an hour late, so I started home down dark, two-lane,
Alabama 14 when what to my wondering eyes should appear, but a
miniature sleigh and eight tiny reindeer...Well...actually not...
just one deer...which waited by the side of the road until I was
there and tried bolting in front of me. $2000 worth of damage.
No plane building now until I'm out of school. :(
C23456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012
C
C John H. Henderson E-mail: johnh(at)eng.auburn.edu
C Dept. of Electrical Engineering Finger: johnh(at)finger.eng.auburn.edu
C Auburn University Mosaic: http://www.eng.auburn.edu/~johnh
C
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: weenie wheels |
Text item:
>
>> > > So, nose wheels are for weenies...
>> > ... Right on!!
>>
>> And so are seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and tire chains. Right?
>>
>> Cowardly and normally quiet about it....FKJ
>>
>
>Frank! You're going to equip your RV with anti-lock brakes and tire
>chains???!!!
>
>:-)
>Randall
Actually, I'm going to equip my RV-6A with many dollars worth of IFR
equipment instead so I can spend 90% of my flying time in challenging
endeavor and skills demonstration rather than building a VFR taildragger
and spending only 1% of my time in this. Now that I think of it, it is
true that old pilots respect a man who demonstrates a perfect three-
point landing in a taildragger, but you really get their respect up
when you do a perfect full-stall landing in a nosedragger even though
you don't have to. That's what I work on when I'm not trying to maintain
+/-50 ft altitude while everything is bouncing around in the cockpit....
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: weenie wheels
From: edt.com!randall(at)matronics.com (Randall Henderson)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 11:28:01 PST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: weenie wheels |
On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
> >
> > > > So, nose wheels are for weenies...
> > > ... Right on!!
> >
> > And so are seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and tire chains. Right?
> >
> > Cowardly and normally quiet about it....FKJ
> >
>
> Frank! You're going to equip your RV with anti-lock brakes and tire
> chains???!!!
>
> :-)
> Randall
Necessary for those far-north bush strips, you know?
- Alan
______________________
| Alan Reichert |
| reichera(at)clark.net |
|----------------------|
| RV-4/RV-6 debate |
| in progress |
|______________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | RE: Test Message... |
Why not leave all the wheels off and have someone toss the plane in the air
(a.k.a. my old RC planes)?
>What's with all you weenies who need a 3rd wheel anyway -- I'm
>going to leave it off altogether! Just _think_ how much weight I'll
>save! :-) :-) :-)
>
>>
>>
>> Hum, there hasn't been any traffic on the RV-LIST for a while. This is a
>> test
>> message to stir up some trouble if its working...
>>
>> So, nose wheels are for weenies...
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> dralle(at)matronics.com
>> 510-422-4896 Voice
>> 510-422-2425 FAX
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin) |
| Subject: | Re: nosewheel/tailwheel |
I suppose everyone's so busy figuring out which wheel they would rather
have to take off and land on ... they forgot to mention that once the
wheels leave the ground -It really doesn't matter!
About to dimple my HS stab skins.
Harold
RV 6A
//only 11,700 more rivets to go//
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Tail wheel vs. Nose wheel, decision factors |
Here is a summary of some things you may want to consider on the
'tail wheel' vs 'nose wheel' issue. Most builds just 'know' what
they want to build (but maybe have not thought of all the issues)
while others are undecided. This list may help you decide.
I am just trying to list the facts/factors and am not voting (here)
one way or the other.
1) What type of runway's and airports will you operate from?
If hard surfaced, then either type is OK but a nose wheel is
best on hard surface.
A tail dragger has the advantage on rough or sod airstrips.
It has more propeller clearance and you don't have to worry
about a nose wheel dropping in some hole or depression and
chewing up the prop. Taildragger also does better in soft
field operation. I fly out of a "grass" strip (acutally
a rock pile) and there have been several nose wheel planes
bend their props and or nose wheels at this airport.
2) Pilot experience. This has been well discussed. If you don't
have tailwheel time, you need some dual training first as a
must.
3) Insurance. The insurance company will look at your experience
and put a $$ value on your risks. If you are low time tailwheel
they will charge you more. If you plan to insure your $50,000
bird, this may be a factor. Even if you ensure it for the
cost of parts, you will need 25 to $30,000 insurance so your
risk rating may make a big difference in the annual premium.
The rate will go down as you build TW time.
I expect they will want 250 hours TW before you get a better rate.
4) Other Pilots. Does the wife or kids expect to fly it?
What are their skill levels?
5) Your age. As we get older, reflexes slow down. Remember,
it will be 2 to 10 yrs down the road before you fly the thing.
6) Your goals. If you want to fly other tailwheel planes in
the future (Pitts, Stearman, ??) then the RV is probably as
good of a tailwheel time builder as there is.
7) Looks. Some just like the looks of one over the other.
The paint job can make a big difference here also.
8) Resale value. If you ever sell it, you will probably have
a larger market for a nose wheel type. You may also have
less concerns selling a tri-gear to someone you don't know
very well (the liability issue). There are lots of C-172
pilots out there.
9) Remember, they all fly the same in the air, except for
a slight speed and weight difference for the nose wheel but
it is minimal.
Regards, Herman
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: Test + rudder stiffener question |
Well Matt, I thot I was the only one chicken s--- enough to get the list going
with a cheap shot like that... Nice job! :-)
Say Frank, with all the crap these goons have been heaping on you -6A builders,
I would say it takes a manly dude to build a -6A! Whatta stud! :-)
dw
> > So, nose wheels are for weenies...
> ... Right on!!
And so are seat belts, anti-lock brakes, and tire chains. Right?
Cowardly and normally quiet about it....FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
My partner and I have finished both the VS and rudder. When we
put the bolt thru the hinges for the first time we noticed that
the tips did not match exactly. Unfortunately we trimmed the
skins to within 1/2 inch of the tip ribs
on both the VS and rudder while we were constructing them.
For those of you who are now constructing empenage kits, I
would recommend that you leave at least 1 inch of skin on all
tips and trim to fit after all components are mated. Our
mismatch is about 3/16 to 1/4 inches and will cause us to have
to rework the fiberglass tips for a visual pleasing finish.
Caveat Builder!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | reply - weenie wheel?? |
Been watching the discussion about which end the third wheel belongs on, and
had to add my two cents. First, we are building an RV6A. We includes my
wife. We are both pilots with lots of Cessna 172 and 182 time. Much of
this time is cross country, some IFR. We want a plane that fits this usage
but is faster and decided the 6A fits this need. I clipped out one of your
comments about adding IFR and pasted it below, and absolutely agree. We fly
to see the country, many times the weather is not CVFR. I do not want the
wheel location to determine if I make a flight. So my decision is to stay
with a tricycle gear.
Our progress to date - both wings are in jigs in garage with leading edges
riveted on, both fuel tanks ready to proseal and rivet. I probably will
drill and clecoe main skins before completing fuel tanks. For all the
complaining about little traffic on the rv-list, I only got one reply to my
recent questions about fuel tanks. I was a good reply, thanks, helped alot.
It is a beautiful weekend in N Texas, to rivet or fly? What a choice. Tom
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, I'm going to equip my RV-6A with many dollars worth of IFR
equipment instead so I can spend 90% of my flying time in challenging
endeavor and skills demonstration rather than building a VFR taildragger
and spending only 1% of my time in this. Now that I think of it, it is
true that old pilots respect a man who demonstrates a perfect three-
point landing in a taildragger, but you really get their respect up
when you do a perfect full-stall landing in a nosedragger even though
you don't have to. That's what I work on when I'm not trying to maintain
+/-50 ft altitude while everything is bouncing around in the cockpit....
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | What would you get? |
Since you're trying to liven up the list, here's one for ya'll....
What would you get if you built an RV design to identical dimensions using
fiberglass/composites instead of metal?
Now, this may produce some rather interesting one liner replies, which are
welcome... But seriously, could it be done? Would it be lighter/heavier?
Faster/Slower? Cheaper/More Expensive? etc/etc?
Heh heh....
Shawn Chaney
Fremont, Ohio
RV-6A (still Ruddering.....too damn cold to work in the barn!!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fiberglass vs metal |
I seem to recall that in order to achieve identical
strengths, the fiberglass version would weigh more
than the metal version.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6, sn 23744
Working on the rudder in 80 degree sunshine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What would you get? |
Text item:
SHOT!!
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: What would you get?
Date: 2/5/95 1:09 PM
Since you're trying to liven up the list, here's one for ya'll....
What would you get if you built an RV design to identical dimensions using
fiberglass/composites instead of metal?
Now, this may produce some rather interesting one liner replies, which are
welcome... But seriously, could it be done? Would it be lighter/heavier?
Faster/Slower? Cheaper/More Expensive? etc/etc?
Heh heh....
Shawn Chaney
Fremont, Ohio
RV-6A (still Ruddering.....too damn cold to work in the barn!!!)
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: What would you get?
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:24:12 -0500
From: aol.com!ShawnT2(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: What would you get? |
My answers to the question aluminum vs. fiberglass are as follows:
- it could be done
- it would be heavier
- it would fly at probably the same speed (slightly
less drag due to no rivets) but wouldn't be as
spirited (lower ROC, longer TO run, etc.) because
of the weight penalty
- it would cost more
Aluminum wins this contest.
Andreas Meyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Re: What would you get? |
>Since you're trying to liven up the list, here's one for ya'll....
>
>What would you get if you built an RV design to identical dimensions using
>fiberglass/composites instead of metal?
>
Itchy skin and lung problems.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: What would you get? |
I have a friend who lives in North Carolina who built a "plastic"
airplane -- a (PollyWagon if anyone knows what that is) and after
flying it for the first time summed it up by saying "What the hell did
I build???!!!" Anyhow, when I showed him my RV project he really liked
it and started talking about how he could make one out of fiberglass --
aieeeee!!! I think I've about got him talked into building a REAL RV
instead of a plastic one. I sure hope so, he has good mechanical
skills, if he'd apply them to a metal RV I'm sure it would be a nice
one....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> Since you're trying to liven up the list, here's one for ya'll....
>
> What would you get if you built an RV design to identical dimensions using
> fiberglass/composites instead of metal?
>
> Now, this may produce some rather interesting one liner replies, which are
> welcome... But seriously, could it be done? Would it be lighter/heavier?
> Faster/Slower? Cheaper/More Expensive? etc/etc?
>
> Heh heh....
>
> Shawn Chaney
> Fremont, Ohio
> RV-6A (still Ruddering.....too damn cold to work in the barn!!!)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James M Wilson <James_M_Wilson(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: What would you get? |
Text item:
So all you glass-air wanta builders should build an Alumi-air.
Or just go with the proven design.
Besides, the RV offers a real aircraft design option.
Tandem Seating!!!
jmw, -4
My answers to the question aluminum vs. fiberglass are as follows:
- it could be done
- it would be heavier
- it would fly at probably the same speed (slightly
less drag due to no rivets) but wouldn't be as
spirited (lower ROC, longer TO run, etc.) because
of the weight penalty
- it would cost more
Aluminum wins this contest.
Andreas Meyer
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Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 7:51:54 EST
Subject: Re: What would you get?
From: Andreas Meyer <hpanis.an.hp.com!meyer(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Source for nut-plates? |
I wrote:
> I'm looking for a source for single leg and corner nut-plates for #8
> screws -- countersunk type.
[...]
Thanks for the responses, I got several suggestions for sources, none
of which had any. But one place referred me to Spencer Aircraft,
206-776-0800, who does have some. I only got info for single leg since
that's really all I need. The part number for anyone who is interested
is NAS683-AO8. Their price is 46 cents each.
I also found out about their distributor, which is Harco --
310-643-9400. Their prices are as follows: $1 each for 1-249, 0.30 for
250-499, and .22 each for 500+.
If you are wondering "why does he need those?", they can come in very
handy in a couple of places for the fuel tank attach screws where
clearances are tight, or if you drilled for your screws a little too
close to a spreader angle or spar strip. There may be places in the
fuselage that would be nice to have them as well but I haven't gotten
that far so I can't say.
Note to Portland Rvators: Doug Stenger is going to buy 500 of them, and
will sell some to local builders for close to the wholesale price, so
contact him if you want some.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | clem(at)laitram.com |
I have a friend who has the following problem. The engine is not in a
RV, but he is very desperate and begged me to post this here.
At about 100 TSO a resonance started. It was found to be originating
from the oil line to the cooler. The line is not shaking, but has a buzz
or a hoot. It is felt in the structure and heard even in flight, but only
in a range between 800 to 1200 RPM. After much testing the parts
changing started. Oil cooler, lines, 90 degree fittings replaced with
45 degree, oil relief valve and oil were changed. With the vernatherm
installed, it would have to close before the resonance would start.
Oil pressure is excellent and only normal metal shows up in the screen.
There is no major change in the buzz between hot or cold oil. After
many conversations with engine shops and Lycoming I decided to explore
the pump. The oil pump, alumunum and steel, looked fine with no
evidence of chatter. These parts only had 150 hrs. These were changed
to the new steel/steel type and the housing was changed.
Not finding any major problems with the pump I did not expect to
fix the buzz and I was right. It is still doing it and the only difference
is it seems to start at 750 RPM now. The Stewart warner oil cooler
was removed & replaced with a bare line. Same results.
We are concerned that the resonance will fatique & fail lines/fittings
and want is stopped. Any help, Lycoming is at a lost and has no
more suggestions.
Thanks for any help
Clem
Soon to purchase RV6A.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: reply - weenie wheel?? |
> For all the
>complaining about little traffic on the rv-list, I only got one reply to my
>recent questions about fuel tanks. I was a good reply, thanks, helped alot.
Sorry about the lack of response, Tommy; sometimes it happens that way. These
have been several intense discussions about cleaning before Pro-Sealing over the
last year, most recently only a few weeks ago. There have also been several
mentions of making a little 10:1 scale. I guess that is why you only got one
response; everybody was talked out. I, for one, saved your message in case
nobody else answered it. I guess the best policy is if you don't get an answer
at first, try again. I know there are lots of people out there who like to give
suggestions.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | t81417(at)doseng1.dehavilland.ca (Stephen Gladstone) |
| Subject: | 3 wheels, 2 wheels, 1 wheel |
Dear sirs
After reading all of the comments on tail dragger veses nose dragger
I Thought I would like to put in my two cents worth. I have flow both
types of air craft, and I must say that tail draggers require more skill
and concentration to take off and in particular to land. I feel that
flying a tail dragger like the RV series, put use in mind of the later
generation who only flew tail draggers. Thier where some very impresive
tail draggers in the past, ones that myself could only fly in my dreams.
I think an RV tail dragger would let me fell that I could be returning
from a sotie over the Eglish channel or fighter sweep from the Low
Country.
When Van was designing his first kitable aircrat the RV3, formula 1 air
racing was still popular. Those streamlined little air craft had a big
influence on the design of his aircraft. Aside from the difficulty factor
of the tail wheel I think the lines of the RVS lend them selves more to
the tail dragger. A nose wheel seems to spoil the appearence of the
aircraft.
I also fly a glider, it has only one wheel to land and take off whith.
Reagrds Steven Gladstone
RV6 Builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Resonance |
This sounds like job for LPM (light Plane Maintainence). They can
be reached at; lpmeditor(at)aol.com If they can't answer the question
nobody can.
>
> I have a friend who has the following problem. The engine is not in a
> RV, but he is very desperate and begged me to post this here.
>
>
> At about 100 TSO a resonance started. It was found to be originating
> from the oil line to the cooler. The line is not shaking, but has a buzz
> or a hoot. It is felt in the structure and heard even in flight, but only
> in a range between 800 to 1200 RPM. After much testing the parts
> changing started. Oil cooler, lines, 90 degree fittings replaced with
> 45 degree, oil relief valve and oil were changed. With the vernatherm
> installed, it would have to close before the resonance would start.
> Oil pressure is excellent and only normal metal shows up in the screen.
> There is no major change in the buzz between hot or cold oil. After
> many conversations with engine shops and Lycoming I decided to explore
> the pump. The oil pump, alumunum and steel, looked fine with no
> evidence of chatter. These parts only had 150 hrs. These were changed
> to the new steel/steel type and the housing was changed.
> Not finding any major problems with the pump I did not expect to
> fix the buzz and I was right. It is still doing it and the only difference
> is it seems to start at 750 RPM now. The Stewart warner oil cooler
> was removed & replaced with a bare line. Same results.
>
> We are concerned that the resonance will fatique & fail lines/fittings
> and want is stopped. Any help, Lycoming is at a lost and has no
> more suggestions.
>
> Thanks for any help
> Clem
>
> Soon to purchase RV6A.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
OK, here's something for you folks who are either already flying, or know
someone who flys, an RV-6/6A.
I'd like to look at information on cruising speeds for different
engine/prop combinations.
If you wouldn't mind, please return the following info to me:
Model of plane (-6/-6A):
Size/HP of engine:
Diameter/pitch of prop:
Maker of prop:
Airspeed (indicate IAS or TAS) at 75% at altitude:
(If CS prop, give settings)
Climb rate @ speed @ altitude (indicate IAS or TAS):
(If CS prop, give settings)
With/without wheel pants:
With/without nav lights:
Airframe mods affecting speed:
Any comments/additional info:
Thanks!
- Alan
______________________
| Alan Reichert |
| reichera(at)clark.net |
|----------------------|
| RV-4/RV-6 debate |
| in progress |
|______________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil |
C'mon, we're all weenies! REAL airplanes have tailhooks!
DH
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Oil Resonance |
You may want to call Kas Thomas at the TBO Advisor.
His number is 203-967-8260 in Greenwich CT.
Kas was at LPM and has his own newsletter (and books) now.
Some of my thoughts are: You say you replaced the oil relief valve
but do not say if you replaced the spring.
Given all that you have replaced, the only other thought I have
(and they are kind of far out but so is this problem) are:
1) It may be a valve lifter problem or a cam lobe problem.
The cam lifts the lifters and they are filled with oil.
If there is something wrong here it could reflect all the
way through the pressuried oil system.
A cam lobe would have to be hammering a lifter up too fast
for example. Or the ball in a lifter that is suppose to
close when the lobe lifts the lifter is not closing and
so all the valve spring pressure is pushing back through
this hole at the bottom of the lifter and is being reflected
into the oil system. If this is the case, you might find
this by pulling off all the valve covers and rotating over
the engine and ensuring each valve stays full open.
If one valve does not stay open then that lifter is bleeding
down very fast and could cause this problem.
I would do this check with the oil hot.
2) The other possibility is a worn bearing somewhere that is
allowing a shaft to move and this movement is causing
oil pressure to drop when clearance opens up and then rise
when it closes. This would be worse at specific RPM's.
This would have to be either a connecting rod or maybe
a cam bearing.
Herman.
> I have a friend who has the following problem. The engine is not in a
> RV, but he is very desperate and begged me to post this here.
>
>
> At about 100 TSO a resonance started. It was found to be originating
> from the oil line to the cooler. The line is not shaking, but has a buzz
> or a hoot. It is felt in the structure and heard even in flight, but only
> in a range between 800 to 1200 RPM. After much testing the parts
> changing started. Oil cooler, lines, 90 degree fittings replaced with
> 45 degree, oil relief valve and oil were changed. With the vernatherm
> installed, it would have to close before the resonance would start.
> Oil pressure is excellent and only normal metal shows up in the screen.
> There is no major change in the buzz between hot or cold oil. After
> many conversations with engine shops and Lycoming I decided to explore
> the pump. The oil pump, alumunum and steel, looked fine with no
> evidence of chatter. These parts only had 150 hrs. These were changed
> to the new steel/steel type and the housing was changed.
> Not finding any major problems with the pump I did not expect to
> fix the buzz and I was right. It is still doing it and the only difference
> is it seems to start at 750 RPM now. The Stewart warner oil cooler
> was removed & replaced with a bare line. Same results.
>
> We are concerned that the resonance will fatique & fail lines/fittings
> and want is stopped. Any help, Lycoming is at a lost and has no
> more suggestions.
>
> Thanks for any help
> Clem
>
> Soon to purchase RV6A.
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Seibert" <Bob_Seibert(at)oakqm3.sps.mot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airspeeds... |
Reply to: RE>Airspeeds...
Here are the real airspeeds I am getting with a RV-6 with only 2 exposed
antennas.
Model of plane (-6/-6A): RV-6 N691RV
Size/HP of engine: O-320-E2D 150 HP
Diameter/pitch of prop: 70" dia x 74" pitch
Maker of prop: modified Sensenich
Airspeed (indicate IAS or TAS) at 75% at altitude: 185 mph, top speed is 205
mph at 2800 RPM
Climb rate @ speed @ altitude (indicate IAS or TAS): approx 1500fpm @ 105 ias
@ 1500'
With/without wheel pants: unknown
With/without nav lights: turning the lights on does not seem to slow it down!
Airframe mods affecting speed: If you "fair in" the firewall flange at the
bottom where all the cooling air is exiting, it seems to give about 3mph.
This air needs to be accellerated to about 200mph when it leaves the cowling
in order to minimize "cooling drag". When built to plans, the firewall lip is
a 3/4" lip of metal sticking out in that stream of cooling air. Any kind of
curved ramp or filler block will probably help smooth the airflow in that
area.
Any comments/additional info: I love the 150 hp fuel. My fuel costs about 90
cents per gallon with the tax rebate I get by burning Mogas "offroad" in
Texas.
Thanks!
- Alan
______________________
| Alan Reichert |
| reichera(at)clark.net |
|----------------------|
| RV-4/RV-6 debate |
| in progress |
|______________________|
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 20:07:57 MST
From: "A. Reichert" <clark.net!reichera(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Airspeeds...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: weenie wheels |
Text item:
AND ..... MOST OF THEM ARE "NOSEDRAGGERS", ESPECIALLY NOW A DAYS.
NOTHING LIKE YOUR FIRST CARRIER LANDING TO TEST THE OLD COLON.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: weenie wheels
Date: 2/7/95 10:03 AM
C'mon, we're all weenies! REAL airplanes have tailhooks!
DH
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Subject: weenie wheels
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 07:56:28 EDT
From: tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil!davehyde(at)matronics.com
January 05, 1995 - February 07, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ai