RV-Archive.digest.vol-ak
April 04, 1995 - May 09, 1995
Ed Hobenshield
Box 213
Kitwanga, BC, Canada, V0J 2A0
604-849-5698
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: instruments / was introduction |
Best deal for instruments is to get them at Sun 'n Fun or Oshkosh. I "work"
for Century Instruments at those events, and they give really good prices on
overhauled instruments. Don'tbuy them too far in advance, especially gyros,
because they have a shelf life if they don't turn.
Ed Wischmeyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | ROUTING OF ELECT AND STATIC LINES Q's |
Frank,
Where is everyone routing the electical lines through the F-602, 604, 605
bulkheads on the 6A? Inclination is to run electrical under the armrest and
the same with static line. I don't see any reason that wires (holes need to
go through the spar) Or am I missing something here?
Any advice on what works best?
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Maurer <MIKEM(at)wpmail.code3.com> |
Unsubscribe.
Sorry to send this to the whole group, but I don't know where to
send general "housecleaning" requests for this list.
Please unsubscribe me from the RV list for the time being. I am
going out of town for a spell and don't want all the incoming traffic.
I'll resubscribe at a later date.
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ROUTING OF ELECT AND STATIC LINES Q's |
'Everyone' seems to do it differently. I routed mine down the spar carry-thru
channel, then down the side. If you have limited # of wires, this works well.
In my case, I had so many durn wires I filled both sides and had more on the
outside. Done right, that is a good place to 'hide' them tho.
dw
Frank,
Where is everyone routing the electical lines through the F-602, 604, 605
bulkheads on the 6A? Inclination is to run electrical under the armrest and
the same with static line. I don't see any reason that wires (holes need to
go through the spar) Or am I missing something here?
Any advice on what works best?
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: instruments / was introduction |
Quick notes about Century - I have a combo manifold/fuel press guage I got
from them, looks like new. I also got a good deal on a used "Piper
Truespeed" true airspeed indicator. I sent it to Century along with a list
of speed ranges/colors taken from the RV manual, and they sent it back with
all ranges 'set' for my RV-6, including a new name - "RV-6 TrueSpeed". It
looks and works great. I had a problem with the face gasket leaking when I
tried to get my encoder sign-off, and sent it to them just outside of the 1
year warranty. They griped a bit, but DID fix it free of charge.
I recently bought a couple replacement instruments from someone else, but
only because Century didn't have what I was looking for.
BTW - You RV guys should all consider getting 'true airspeed' indicators.
These have sub-dials that allow you to adjust the instrument in flight to
match the altitude/temperature, therefore converting 'indicated' to 'true'
airspeed. VERY HANDY in an airplane that can go high and fast like an RV.
Most of us 'grew-up' flying aircraft that top out in the low 100 mph range
and don't go high very often, so we don't appreciate the 'true airspeed'
capability. I really like mine...
dw RV-6 N790DW
>Best deal for instruments is to get them at Sun 'n Fun or Oshkosh. I "work"
>for Century Instruments at those events, and they give really good prices on
>overhauled instruments. Don'tbuy them too far in advance, especially gyros,
>because they have a shelf life if they don't turn.
>Ed Wischmeyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | RV4 firewall help request |
I'm having trouble getting the main longeron to tie into the Wd402
firewall (steel) brackets. The problem is, the angle of the longeron
approaching the firewall is greater than the angle of the welded
bracket. I have checked all measurements and can't solve this.
If the longeron is pulled inboard to fit the bracket, the area between
bulkhead F404 and the firewall will indent.
recommendations so far are:
1) shim the bracket to the firewall and fit it to the longeron
2) fit it to the firewall and shim to the longeron
3) modify F404 to fit (F404 is where the spar ties in)
4) weld new brackets
I have never heard of this as a problem. What might I be doing wrong?
Has anyone else seen this problem and what was done to address it. I
can't believe the bracket design doesn't fit their plans.
any input helpful,
MikeWilson -4, jigging the fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: ROUTING OF ELECT AND STATIC LINES Q's |
Don,
The static line should be treated as a special case, and run just
under the cockpit rail (longeron) to the instrument panel, as shown in the
RV6 Manual.
If you follow this routing, then the static ports themselves are
the lowest point in the whole static system, a water trap will not be
needed, and your instruments will thank you!!
I used the machined static ports from Avery, and 1/4 inch tygon
tubing, but used a piece of 1/8 O.D. soft aluminum tubing (from the KS
Metals rack at your local hobby store) for the run between the Main Spar
bulkhead and the Rear Spar bulkhead. I used this smaller size since I did
not want to drill a large hole (3/8) for the Tygon, and weaken the
bulkheads. Using this small size of tubing, I was able to get the tubing
to be about 0.25 inches under the top of the longeron, where it will be
completely covered by the canopy 'sill' pieces. Nylon tubing would also
be good for this application, but don't get the cheap nylon stuff that goes
brittle with age.
I haven't planned my wiring path yet, and will be interested in all
of your responses. Since I am planning to use the Electric Elevator trim
kit, a set of large holes are now available through the spar and down the
fuselage! Van's black conduit stuff could probably be used.
... good luck ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
... out of the fus. jig this weekend, since the next jig user (#3) is waiting!!
>Frank,
>
>Where is everyone routing the electical lines through the F-602, 604, 605
>bulkheads on the 6A? Inclination is to run electrical under the armrest and
>the same with static line. I don't see any reason that wires (holes need to
>go through the spar) Or am I missing something here?
>
>Any advice on what works best?
>
>Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Which Way Flap Brace? |
When I did my flap brace I had to redo it because I assumed the sharp
bend (129 degrees) was against the spar and the shallower bend (135
degrees) was against the wing skin; the picture in drawing 17 that shows
these angles has it oriented this way. I turned the brace the other way
and it fit perfectly. I wrote my instructions to do it the way it worked
for me (sharper bend against the wing skin). Now one of the builders
tells me that the other orientation (as shown in the drawing) is
actually correct and somebody at Van's verified this. As far as I can
tell my brace material from Van's is per the drawing and so is the
overhang of the bottom wing skin. One dimension on the brace was changed
in 1991 and the drawing itself was not changed, but that would not
account for the discrepancy. Can anybody shed any light on this? I need
to know if my instructions are incorrect in this area.
Frank Justice
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org |
| Subject: | Tip of the Day (4/5/95) |
Gentlemen (and ladies, I'm sure):
Thought I might pass along an occasional tip from some of the RV newsletters we
exchange...
________________________________________________________________________________
For RV-6 builders:
Here is a BIGGIE!! The instruction sheet that comes with the sliding canopy
says that you can increase the headroom by one inch by moving the roll bar
forward and raising it about 1/4 inch. This changes a lot of things!! The
forward skin changes. Because the fuselage begins to taper at this point, the
roll bar is too wide. The canopy won't fit between the roll bar support support
bracket and the forward top skin as shown. The rear skin cut out changes, as
does the canopy rail. There's an old saying in the aircraft building business
that, "There is no such thing as a small change." This is true IN SPADES on
this change! Unless you really need the headroom, don't subject yourself to
this abuse!!
- Doug Weiler, MN Wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[3]: ROUTING OF ELECT AND STATIC LINES Q's |
>Don,
> The static line should be treated as a special case, and run just
>under the cockpit rail (longeron) to the instrument panel, as shown in the
>RV6 Manual.
> If you follow this routing, then the static ports themselves are
>the lowest point in the whole static system, a water trap will not be
>needed, and your instruments will thank you!!
I tried to address that issue by where I located the "T" for left and right
ports. I put it well above the ports on the bulkhead just behind the ports.
Your method does sound 'cleaner' however.
I used the 'large pop-rivet' ports supplied in the static kit, they seem to work
fine and can't be beat for simplicity.
As you mentioned, using the black conduit stuff works well for those wires you
can't hide, and adding wires in the area in front of the spar where the fuel
lines run should be fine.
dw N790DW RV-6 20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 firewall help request |
Are you sure you bent the top (main) longeron properly?
This is the one you have to bend to ensure it matches 404 and
then alligns with the firewall.
This is difficult to bend as it is a compound bend.
I used a large lead hammer and clamped to to a heavy board.
This takes a lot of trial and error.
I am at work and don't have my plans, etc but based on your description
I would say the cause is not having the correct bend as noted above.
>
> I'm having trouble getting the main longeron to tie into the Wd402
> firewall (steel) brackets. The problem is, the angle of the longeron
> approaching the firewall is greater than the angle of the welded
> bracket. I have checked all measurements and can't solve this.
> If the longeron is pulled inboard to fit the bracket, the area between
> bulkhead F404 and the firewall will indent.
>
> recommendations so far are:
>
> 1) shim the bracket to the firewall and fit it to the longeron
>
> 2) fit it to the firewall and shim to the longeron
>
> 3) modify F404 to fit (F404 is where the spar ties in)
>
> 4) weld new brackets
>
> I have never heard of this as a problem. What might I be doing wrong?
> Has anyone else seen this problem and what was done to address it. I
> can't believe the bracket design doesn't fit their plans.
>
> any input helpful,
>
> MikeWilson -4, jigging the fuse
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
ccm2.hf.intel.com!James_Mike_Wilson(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: RV4 firewall help request |
Text item:
I don't know about the -4, but the -6 requires a bend and a twist. I
guess that's what Herman means by a "compound bend" of essentially a
linear object. My construction manual didn't mention the twist, but
it was obvious that things wouldn't fit without it.
Earl
RV-6 N66VR (In progress, but I'm about to engage my secret
"quick-build" weapon--I'm quitting my job, haven't taken another, and
don't plan to do so until my -6 flys.)
P.S. Guess I'll have some time to take on some more flying students
in the Portland area again too.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV4 firewall help request
Date: 4/6/95 3:46 PM
Are you sure you bent the top (main) longeron properly?
This is the one you have to bend to ensure it matches 404 and
then alligns with the firewall.
This is difficult to bend as it is a compound bend.
I used a large lead hammer and clamped to to a heavy board.
This takes a lot of trial and error.
I am at work and don't have my plans, etc but based on your description
I would say the cause is not having the correct bend as noted above.
>
> I'm having trouble getting the main longeron to tie into the Wd402
> firewall (steel) brackets. The problem is, the angle of the longeron
> approaching the firewall is greater than the angle of the welded
> bracket. I have checked all measurements and can't solve this.
> If the longeron is pulled inboard to fit the bracket, the area between
> bulkhead F404 and the firewall will indent.
>
> recommendations so far are:
>
> 1) shim the bracket to the firewall and fit it to the longeron
>
> 2) fit it to the firewall and shim to the longeron
>
> 3) modify F404 to fit (F404 is where the spar ties in)
>
> 4) weld new brackets
>
> I have never heard of this as a problem. What might I be doing wrong?
> Has anyone else seen this problem and what was done to address it. I
> can't believe the bracket design doesn't fit their plans.
>
> any input helpful,
>
> MikeWilson -4, jigging the fuse
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
, 95 01:08:27 pm
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 16:21:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RV4 firewall help request
SMI-4.1)
From: austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Djahearn(at)aol.com |
I learned of the RV list in the most recent issue of the RVator. Please
subscribe DAN AHEARN.
Thanks
DJA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Steffens" <res6246(at)des.dukepower.com> |
Conversion-With-Loss: Prohibited
Please sent information on accessing rv-list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Which Way Flap Brace? |
I had a similar experience. On the left wing, I can hold the brace against
the skin and spar, opposite of what is called out on the plans, and it fits
perfectly. If it's held per the plans, the angles are a little off. I plan
to redo the left brace anyway because I cut it a little short were it is
angled to avoid the spar stiffener. My dilema is similar to yours. When I
replace it, should I follow the instructions exactly, or install it for the
best fit????
The difference isn't much. The Right wing brace was installed per the plans
and, although the fit was a little off, there seemed to be no problem after
it was cleco'd together. The fit was a little tight, and the hinge pin was a
little difficult to install without a drill..
Please let us know what you decide, or find out on this issue. I haven't
drilled the replacement brace yet, so I could go either way.
>When I did my flap brace I had to redo it because I assumed the sharp
>bend (129 degrees) was against the spar and the shallower bend (135
>degrees) was against the wing skin; the picture in drawing 17 that shows
>these angles has it oriented this way. I turned the brace the other way
>and it fit perfectly. I wrote my instructions to do it the way it worked
>for me (sharper bend against the wing skin). Now one of the builders
>tells me that the other orientation (as shown in the drawing) is
>actually correct and somebody at Van's verified this. As far as I can
>tell my brace material from Van's is per the drawing and so is the
>overhang of the bottom wing skin. One dimension on the brace was changed
>in 1991 and the drawing itself was not changed, but that would not
>account for the discrepancy. Can anybody shed any light on this? I need
>to know if my instructions are incorrect in this area.
>
>Frank Justice
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: ROUTING OF ELECT AND STATIC LINES Q's |
> From: rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander)
> I haven't planned my wiring path yet, and will be interested in all
> of your responses. Since I am planning to use the Electric Elevator trim
> kit, a set of large holes are now available through the spar and down the
> fuselage! Van's black conduit stuff could probably be used.
Have *I* got a loaded question! I`m in the process of placating my wife
enough to hold her for the 2 to 3 years that will begin in about June or
so (when I expect to order the tail feathers for a 6A). So I haven't
actually looked at either an RV in progress or even really looked at a set
of plans.
What are the implications of the various options Van's offers. For instance,
Gil's posting suggests that going with the electric elevator trim instead
of manual trim leaves a great place for routing electrical wires. These
sorts of issues can have an impact on the decisions I make.
Also, once these options are actually in the air, how do people feel about
them. For instance, every plane I've flown (like that's a big number :-)
has manual elevator trim. I wonder if I would even like electric trim.
Thanks for the input.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Face it: X is SO cool.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[3]: ROUTING OF ELECT AND STATIC LINES Q's |
Joe,
... send Van $20 for the reduced (in size only!) set of preview
plans, they are well worth the money, and will put the whole task into the
right perspective.
One reason that such things as wire routing gets a lot of attention
here is that the plans don't even try to address this, since everyone uses
a different wiring scheme, and different electrical items and
instrumentation.
*** Digression to a personal opinion ***
If you read about difficulties folks have with completed RVs, they
are mainly in the area of systems/engine installation, not basic
structural/control problems. This is where your local EAA Chapter and
Tech. Counsellor can really help. I've already aided our Chap. 40 Tech
Counsellor in inspecting electrical systems (you should see what goes into
a fully IFR Cirrus!).
I have thought that Van should aid this systems/engine installation
process by selling a "plans addition package" that fully specifies - down
to where to place specific Adel clamps - a typical VFR
instrument/electrical set-up and engine installation, using the Lycoming
models he sells as a baseline. Perhaps just a precise documentation of how
one of the factory planes is fitted out.
Talking to other local builders, a lot of them would rather follow
a good set of detailed plans, than create solutions themselves. Being an
engineer by trade, I don't mind coming up with these solutions, but it does
add time to the building process, and small items, such as using the wrong
type of hose for an application, can be ultimately disastrous.
It seems a lot of builders have to re-invent the wheel for each RV
built, solving all of these same minor problems by themselves. The
Bingelis set of books from the EAA really pay for themselves here, but only
deal with lots of seperate subjects, and don't tie the package together
with specific RV details.
... just my thoughts ... Gil Alexander ... RV6A, #20701
*** Joe wrote (edited) ***
>Have *I* got a loaded question! I`m in the process of placating my wife
>enough to hold her for the 2 to 3 years that will begin in about June or
>so (when I expect to order the tail feathers for a 6A). So I haven't
>actually looked at either an RV in progress or even really looked at a set
>of plans.
>
>
>-Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | rv-list clippings in our newsletter |
Just a quick note to let everyone on the list
know that we have started publishing excerps
from the rv-list postings in our EAA Frank
Luke Jr Chapter 538 Newsletter.
We have two completed RV's and at least two under
construction in our chapter.
SO to everyone who posts here, I offer a big
'Thank You'
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
twiddling my thumbs waiting for the wing kit to arrive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Preview plans are here! |
Oh, happy day! I've received the preview plans this past Friday!. Now
to start the studies....
- Alan
_________________________________________________
| Alan Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| Wannabe RV-6 Builder - Preview Plans Received! |
| Study......study......study......study...... |
|_________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James G. Tennison" <tennison(at)rain.org> |
Hello,
I read about the RV list interest group in the February 95 RVator
but I have no idea how to get involved. Could you send me some info?
Thanks
Jim Tennison
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Gear Leg Fairings |
Does anyone know of flying Rv's that are having trouble with their
fiberglass fairings? Several RV owners have told me they are having
problems with the metal and fiberglass fairings warping or breaking. In
most cases, they had installed the wooden dampeners and attached the fairing
as per plans. What is everyone's experiences with fairing durability? Is
there a way to install the fairing so that it can 'float' over the wooden
dampener rather than solidly attaching it the whole length of the landing
gear? How about the two piece units? Any information or experiences would
be appreciated.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Elevator trim questions |
Well, after 2+ years of no RV building, I have finally
finished our house and am back working on my -6A. I
have been working on finishing the left elevator.
I installed electric trim and have that all working
but have some questions before I button up the elevator.
1) I believe someone mentioned that you couldn't over
power full elevator trim using the stick. This would
seem to indicate that you would never need trim tab
deflections as great as allowed. I would like to
limit my trim tab travel using the limit switches in
the MAC trim servo. Does anyone know how far the trim
tab should move relative to the elevator (in degrees)?
I couldn't find any info about this in my instruction
manual.
2) For those people who have installed electric trim --
How are you routing the wires from the servo up into
the fuselage? What did you use for protecting the wires
where they go through aluminum ribs/spars/skins? How
did you insure there would be no interference with the
rudder and elevators from the wires? Where did you put
connectors in (if any) to allow removal of the elevator?
During the two years of no building, I did manage to acquire
an O-320-E2D. This is a 150 hp version off an old C-172.
This engine supposedly has 850 SMOH, but has no log books.
I only paid $2000 for it, so I am willing to live without
the logbooks. I hope to get some flight time before rebuilding.
Can anybody comment on the modifications required to use it
on a -6A? I believe there are some fuel pump considerations.
Thanks for the help! It's great to be building again!
Doug Medema
dougm(at)physio.wa.com
Puget Sound RVators
________________________________________________________________________________
I would like to subscribe to the rv-list. rad(at)gulf.net (Russell Duffy)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James G. Tennison" <tennison(at)rain.org> |
| Subject: | I'm a new list member |
Hello RV folks, I'm:
tennison(at)rain.org
Postal address and phone number:
James G. Tennison Jr.
(call me Jim)
1285 Hanover Ln
Ventura, CA 93001
(805) 641-1556 w
(805) 641-1556 h
Been building an RV-4, off and on (mostly off), for the last few years.
I once owned the wing kit but I had to sell it due to money problems.
Still have my empenage and all of my tools. One day I'll begin again!
Right now I'm busy trying to locate a good aeronautical engineering job,
so any help would be appreciated.
I did have a question. Is Van planning to certify a model of the RV-6?
Let me know if you have any info.
Lookin forward to discussing the finest flying homebuilts!
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Preview plans are here! |
Dan,
The preview plans will not be maintained to most current. They are only
meant to allow folks to "preview" the project. When kits are ordered,
they come with the most up-to-date version of the plans included.
- Alan
_________________________________________________
| Alan Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| Wannabe RV-6 Builder - Preview Plans Received! |
| Study......study......study......study...... |
|_________________________________________________|
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995 aol.com!Djahearn(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Here's a question. Are the review plans any different than the standard plans
> I recieved 18 months ago? Will they be current when I muster up the bucks and
> courage to start the kit.
>
> To date I've been saving copies of the RVator. Is it true that plans will
> come with sub kits?
>
> Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim questions |
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Doug Medema wrote:
> 1) I believe someone mentioned that you couldn't over
> power full elevator trim using the stick. This would
> seem to indicate that you would never need trim tab
> deflections as great as allowed.
Not necessarily. I don't know the definitive answer as far as RVs are
concerned,
but it seems quite possible that a trim tab set for low speed level flight
would result in uncontrollable control forces at cruise speed. After all,
you three point a taildragger with the stick in your gut, but you sure as
heck don't yank it back that far at 180 mph, right? The force exerted on
the elevator by a given trim tab angle will increase as airspeed
increases, just as the force exerted on the tail by a given elevator
angle will increase with airspeed.
Regards,
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim questions |
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Doug Medema wrote:
> During the two years of no building, I did manage to acquire
> an O-320-E2D. This is a 150 hp version off an old C-172.
You'll need to swap out the accessory case for one that has
the fuel pump drive. I don't have a Lycoming parts manual,
so I don't know if there are any other things you'll need
to do in order to add the fuel pump.
My recollection from my C172-ownership days is that
it has the 'straight riser' oil sump, and so you won't
have any problems with carb placement.
If you got the engine for $2K, you may want to consider
overhauling it. That way you KNOW what you have (0 SMOH).
You could also go to the 160 hp pistons/valves, and
have a 160 hp engine at the same time.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
waiting for the wing kit to arrive
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Frank Justice's RV Instructions |
RV-List Members:
I'm sure most of you have Frank Justice's RV instructions, but for any new
members to "The List" I would just like to voice my thanks to Frank for this
great set of instructions. I just received them on disk and to say I am
overwhelmed is an understatement.
All I can say is, if you don't have 'em, get 'em.
(Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com).
Thanks for Frank from the MN Wing of Van's AirForce!!!
- Doug Weiler
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | comments on 0320 E2D acc. case (fuel pump) |
FYI, I have a O 320 E2D from a C172 and the accessory case was
already machined for the fuel pump. It simply had a cover plate
over the hole. When I removed the cover plate, I found it also
had the 'plunger' already installed which is the shaft that
rides on the cam and pushes the fuel pump up and down.
I was told that some of the older acc. cases were not machined
for the fuel pump. So, check to see what you have.
You may not need a different accessory case.
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Doug Medema wrote:
>
> > During the two years of no building, I did manage to acquire
> > an O-320-E2D. This is a 150 hp version off an old C-172.
>
> You'll need to swap out the accessory case for one that has
> the fuel pump drive. I don't have a Lycoming parts manual,
> so I don't know if there are any other things you'll need
> to do in order to add the fuel pump.
>
> My recollection from my C172-ownership days is that
> it has the 'straight riser' oil sump, and so you won't
> have any problems with carb placement.
>
> If you got the engine for $2K, you may want to consider
> overhauling it. That way you KNOW what you have (0 SMOH).
> You could also go to the 160 hp pistons/valves, and
> have a 160 hp engine at the same time.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave Barnhart
> RV-6 sn 23744
> waiting for the wing kit to arrive
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
Wow an RV-List!!! I am Russell Duffy from Navarre, FL (near Pensacola). I
haven't had the chance to fly an RV yet, but I'm currently working on the
wing kit of an RV-6A, smashing 3/16 rivets and ocasionally my hand. At the
rate I'm going, I'll have the plane finished about the time I retire. This
is unfortunate since I'm only 34! I look forward to participating in this
list. It just might provide the inspiration I need to get to work and
finish this thing. But now it's off to the Web page for instructions and to
the ftp site to get the archive file.
Rusty
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca (Shirley Hobenshield) |
My name is Ed Hobenshield. My partner, Ray Haeussler and I started our
RV-6 a year ago. We are getting close to finishing the fuselage.
We have a 320-160 hp and are now shopping for instruments etc. Any deals or
advice would be appreciated.
Ray is retired and works on the plane regulary (1200hrs so far).
I'm 45 and build roads for the loggers. I am not a high time pilot but have
flown 150s,185,Piper Tommahawk and a few hundred on a
little Champ I recently sold.
The RV-6 I got to fly at Vans really hooked me! What an aircraft!!
We read about the RV-LIST on this system in THE RVator.
Time to go up to the shop and fit the last sheet to the fuselage.
shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
Ed Hobenshield
Box 213
Kitwanga, BC, Canada, V0J 2A0
604-849-5698
RV-6
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Shirley Hobenshield shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
Kitwanga Elem. Jr. Sec. 604-849-5484
Box 88
Kitwanga, BC, Canada
V0J 2A0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Aircraft Fuel Question... |
Okay, so here's a question for our international rv-listers: If you were
going to fill your aircraft's fuel tank with, say, 30 liters of Jet A fuel,
would you calculate the weight in Pounds (LBS) or Kilograms? Also, if you were
going to fill your aircraft with 30 *Imperial* gallons or Jet A fuel, would
you calulate the weight in Pounds or Kilograms?
Thanks for any and all input.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | instruments source |
Regarding Instruments, get Van's options catalog.
Van sells most instruments at about the best price around.
His airspeed are already marked for RV's.
You can also check with Chief Aircraft, Aircraft Spruce,
and maybe Century Inst. (Wichita KS).
I got most of mine from Van's and a few things from Century.
Herman.
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Out of the Jig!! |
RV-listers,
My fuselage reached a milestone this last weekend and left it's
jig! At least it looks like an aeroplane to me now.
The jig went on to hold it's third RV6.
My questions for anyone who's already past this stage is:-
What do do next??
Is there a prefered order of internal/upper assembly??
Any particular items to watch out for that are not covered in the plans??
Space is at a premium, and I have not yet got my finishing kit
(it's a _large_ box), but I am building the 'tip-up' canopy version, with
electric flaps and elevator trim.
... thanks for any hints ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
Installed properly, the standard 2-piece metal fairing is pretty durable and
lasts well. The main cosmetic issue with it is that it tends to 'work' at the
joint in the center and this is a bit 'ugly' after while.
I don't have any experience with the 'Jerry Herrold fiberglass' clambshell type,
have never seen one up close.
I saw a local RV-4 that had molded in place fiberglass fairings and thought they
looked very nice, so with some input from the builder, I used that method. They
took 6 weeks to complete, and since I didn't use thick enough glass, they
eventually cracked on a couple of my more embarrasing landings. I spent another
6 weeks rebuilding them and really made sure I used heavier cloth and enough
layers (at least 5!). They look better than ever, and I know they are strong
because I can feel the added stiffeness when landing. In fact, they are so
strong that the first day I flew it after a 5 month rebuild, I taxied into a
taxi light with one and even tho it broke the aluminum housing on the light, all
it did was chip a little paint off the gear leg! (pretty embarrasing, however!)
BUT, even though my gear legs look great (again), it was a ridiculous amount of
work, I still don't know how long they will last, and I don't recommend it
unless you are very comfy with your glass skills. Another possible drawback is
that if you don't get them straight in relation to airflow, you have a permanent
trim problem that will have to be overcome some other way. The metal ones can
be adjusted.
dw
_________________________
Does anyone know of flying Rv's that are having trouble with their
fiberglass fairings? Several RV owners have told me they are having
problems with the metal and fiberglass fairings warping or breaking. In
most cases, they had installed the wooden dampeners and attached the fairing
as per plans. What is everyone's experiences with fairing durability? Is
there a way to install the fairing so that it can 'float' over the wooden
dampener rather than solidly attaching it the whole length of the landing
gear? How about the two piece units? Any information or experiences would
be appreciated.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Out of the Jig!! |
As I recall, you now have about 3 months of installing stuff in the bottom of
the fuselage - seat pans, seats, controls, etc, before you even do the
turtledeck skins. It seems like you work and work but nothing changes!
Congrats, that's a major milestone from an enjoyment standpoint at least.
dw N790DW
RV-listers,
My fuselage reached a milestone this last weekend and left it's
jig! At least it looks like an aeroplane to me now.
The jig went on to hold it's third RV6.
My questions for anyone who's already past this stage is:-
What do do next??
Is there a prefered order of internal/upper assembly??
Any particular items to watch out for that are not covered in the plans??
Space is at a premium, and I have not yet got my finishing kit
(it's a _large_ box), but I am building the 'tip-up' canopy version, with
electric flaps and elevator trim.
... thanks for any hints ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
>Does anyone know of flying Rv's that are having trouble with their
>fiberglass fairings? Several RV owners have told me they are having
>problems with the metal and fiberglass fairings warping or breaking. > In
>most cases, they had installed the wooden dampeners and >attached the
fairing
>as per plans. What is everyone's experiences with fairing >durability? Is
>there a way to install the fairing so that it can 'float' over the wooden
>dampener rather than solidly attaching it the whole length of the >landing
>gear? How about the two piece units? Any information or >experiences
would
>be appreciated.
>Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
>Whidbey RV-ators
>721 N. Palisades
>Coupeville, WA 98239
>(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
I have used both the alum. fairings and am now using Jerry Harrolds
fiberglass clam shell fairings. They both work well if installed properly I
removed my alum. fairings because I had never put the wood stiffners on the
gear legs which made for tire scrubbing whenever I applied brakes.
I decided to put on the fiberglass fearings made my Jerry Harrold, after
putting the wood stiffners in place.They are very easy to install, just make
sure you use a good sealer on the gear then put on the wood stiffners wrap
well with fiberglass, wrap the fiberglass fairings around the gear (they are
split up the backside)run a strip of glass and resin down the back side and
clamp together with a metal channel supplied by Jerry, make sure they are
lined up per the plans then fill them with a two part foam. I have had these
on for about three years and have no problems. ( If there is problems with
warping and breaking it is probably from hard landings or runnway lights,
right Don?........) :=).
Jerry Springer RV-6 N90GS close to 700hrs on it.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fried" <t42444(at)theo.dehavilland.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Gear Leg Fairings |
>I have used both the alum. fairings and am now using Jerry Harrolds
>fiberglass clam shell fairings.
>Jerry Springer
Sounds interesting to me, how can I contact Jerry Harrold. I was never
impressed with the fit of the two part alumunum fairings. If they are not
aligned, the gear leg looks as if something has broken inside.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
************************************************************************
* Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent *
* of my employer. *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Trim tab movement and my used engine |
I called up Van's this morning and talked to 'Tom'.
I wanted to know what Van's thought the minimum
allowable elevator trim tab movement needed to be.
Tom asked me how far mine would move at the trailing
edge of the trim tab relative to the trailing edge
of the elevator. I said about 1-1/2 inches and he
said that would be fine. He said normal usage is
in the 1/2 inch range. I would still be very
interested if anybody flying could give me their
experience regarding maximum displacement of the
trim tab at minimun controllable airspeed (that
would be the place for maximum deflection, would
it not?).
With regards to my used engine. I talked to a
person from Lycoming at the '94 Washington State
Pilot's Convention. I believe this person heads
up Lycoming's service department and used to run
his own rebuild shop. He seemed very knowldgeable.
He indicated that I should clean out the crankcase,
boroscope the cylinders, check compression, etc.,
and unless I found something wrong, go fly the engine.
I would rather not rebuild the engine, not so much
for the cost, but for the fact that rebuilt engines
are supposed to be run fairly hard at the start
during break-in. I would like to pursue a nice
slow-moving taxi test time before the first flight.
This is only practical on a used engine. I will
again check the engine out before the first flight.
Doug Medema
dougm@physio-control.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
| Subject: | Super Koropon primer; priming the rudder |
I tried to reach DeSoto Aerospace, makers of Super Koropon epoxy primer.
The (800) telephone number given in a posting last year apparently was
changed years ago, according to the person who answered. (800) directory
assistance and the local Berkeley, CA directory assistance have no record
of DeSoto. Does anyone have a recent number for DeSoto or better yet
another source for this (or a better) epoxy primer?
On a related topic: is there any aerodynamic reason not to put primer on
the rudder? I'm thinking about flutter due to added weight. My suspicion
is that primer weight is irrelevent, since one can put an entire position
light on the rudder.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider St.
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | used engine vs overhaul |
Doug, I also perfer a 'good used' engine to a fresh overhaul
in a new homebuilt. Most overhauls end up with chrome or cermichrome
cylinders and they need to be broken in properly. This means either
a runin in a test cell or flown ASAP with just a few min. of ground run in.
This all assumes you can not afford a new engine as most of us can not.
Here is what I would do with a used Lyc. engine.
1) I would go through the carb if it has been setting.
Use the metal float and one piece venturi and make sure
every thing is OK in the carb. Usually a local AP/IA or
homebuilder can do this for you. This way you know what you
have. There were AD's on the venturi and also on the plastic
floats. Stamp your data plate. If the data plate is stamped
with a 'V' that means it has the one piece venturi already.
A 'F' means it has the metal float (I think).
2) Make sure you have good mag's. Have them inspected or at least
check the points and make sure it runs up and starts OK.
3) If the engine is higher time, I would check the oil pump AD.
I would not fly a high time one with the sintered iron oil pump.
There was also the woodruf Key AD as well.
You can get these AD's and make sure your engine is not in the
list affected by this AD.
I pulled my acc. case (and oil pan) to check mine on my 0320E2D
and it had the AL and Steel gears. They have also been AD'd
as Lyc wants you to go to the all Steel gears (one nitrided and one
carborized). I think the Aluminum and Steel gear set is just fine
and there are really no problems tha I know of with them.
I found out later that if I had read the AD properly on the sintered
iron AD that I would not have had to pull my acc case as my engine
was outside the AD and it had never been majored.
4) Of course the basic compression check and good oil pressure should
be checked.
5) Keep the engine oiled up good when stored and keep the cyl. dry.
Turn the engine over with oil in it before you put it on the plane
to oil up the cam. They can get scuffed on startup if they are dry.
If you have a good carb and Mag's, almost any engine will run even it it
is in not the best of shape.
Once the plane has some time on it, you can do the major at the next
winter when most can't fly anyway.
>
> With regards to my used engine. I talked to a
> person from Lycoming at the '94 Washington State
> Pilot's Convention. I believe this person heads
> up Lycoming's service department and used to run
> his own rebuild shop. He seemed very knowldgeable.
> He indicated that I should clean out the crankcase,
> boroscope the cylinders, check compression, etc.,
> and unless I found something wrong, go fly the engine.
> I would rather not rebuild the engine, not so much
> for the cost, but for the fact that rebuilt engines
> are supposed to be run fairly hard at the start
> during break-in. I would like to pursue a nice
> slow-moving taxi test time before the first flight.
> This is only practical on a used engine. I will
> again check the engine out before the first flight.
>
> Doug Medema
> dougm@physio-control.com
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JEFFREY A. HALL" <76476.733(at)compuserve.com> |
I had been hearing rumblings about a rv-list on the 'net, and finally got some
info on it from Ed Weber at a gathering of the newly formed Northern Colorado RV
builders group. I've been laboring on a -4 kit for a few years, completed tail,
mostly completed right wing. About ready to put the wing back in the jigs,
having moved the whole business out to Colorado from Michigan recently. Now
that the house is built, the fence is up, the landscaping is mostly done,
sprinklers installed, etc. etc... it's time to start banging some rivets
again!!
I would like to add my two cents worth on the tools vendors list in the FAQ
area. Matt D. sez never met a tool he didn't like from U.S. Industrial Tool in
Plymouth Mi., I've had just the opposite experience. Specifically, rivet
squeezer (admittedly inexpensive one, I learned about that!!) wouldn't make a
decent boat anchor, and especially bucking bars, not a right-angle face in the
whole set! Makes for interesting two handed bucking, with the bar inside where
you can only blindly align it. If you can't get a Tatco squeezer or better,
wait till you can! Also, my life improved dramatically when my wife bestowed
upon me a drill press and band saw! Wouldn't try it again without either of
those. One last piece of advice to starters, get the Vixen (body) file now,
you'll just hate yourself when you do, if you wait. And don't ever leave alclad
laying on cardboard, it actually etches the surface! (Don't ask!) Jeff...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Gear Leg Fairings |
> ( If there is problems with warping and breaking it is probably from hard
> landings or runnway lights, right Don?........) :=).
> Jerry Springer RV-6 N90GS close to 700hrs on it.
That's right Jerry :-). Hey, SOMEONE has to test these things...
All kidding aside, I about puked when I saw how close my prop came to hitting
that light. Gotta weave so you know what's out there (lesson learned the EASY
way, this time).
Don Wentz, RV-6, N790DW
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Vixens body file |
> From: "JEFFREY A. HALL" <compuserve.com!76476.733(at)matronics.com>
>
> wait till you can! Also, my life improved dramatically when my wife bestowed
> upon me a drill press and band saw! Wouldn't try it again without either of
> those. One last piece of advice to starters, get the Vixen (body) file now,
> you'll just hate yourself when you do, if you wait.
Questions:
1. Do I want a large floor-stand type drill press, or is one of the
shorter-stroke benchtop drill presses sufficient for this work?
2. Same question re: band saw.
3. What's a Vixen body file?
Thanks.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Face it: X is SO cool.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Cowling Alterations? |
Cowling Alterations? 4/14/95 10:58
AM
I just heard a blerb about some proposed/already done cowling changes on the RV's...
changing the hub extensions...
know anything bout that?
D~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Vixens body file |
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Do I want a large floor-stand type drill press, or is one of the
> shorter-stroke benchtop drill presses sufficient for this work?
>
I think the bench top unit is the way to go. You can mount it on a
wheeled cart and move it around your shop as the project demands it.
They are also cheeper. I have mine mounted on a old (circa 1990) computer
/diskdrive cabanet. The cabanet was made to house two winchedter type SMD
disk drives not the little SCSI drives we use today. Computer surplus
places might have this sort of thing.
> 2. Same question re: band saw.
>
Get a good one like a Delta or better. Most come on a stand.
They are expensive but worth every penny. I can't imagine living
without one.
> 3. What's a Vixen body file?
>
It's for filing female fox bodys. Sometimes they need it.
Just kidding... it's a curved tooth single cut file used by auto
body repair guys for filing lead/bondo before sanding to the final
shape. It makes real smooth cuts.
Chris
P.S. Don't forget to buy that router to cut alclad.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling Alterations? |
I think they discontinued the 'standard' or non-C/S cowl for the -6 series.
The extensions are now shorter, no 'spool-type'. This eliminates the difficult
decision of which one to order.
IF someone still wants the longer cowl that uses the 4" prop extension, there
are several for sale in the RV market, mostly from folks who changed to C/S
after they got the finishing kits.
I recall that Ed Martinson in the Sacramento area showed me one that he wanted
to sell.
dw
Cowling Alterations? 4/14/95
10:58 AM
I just heard a blerb about some proposed/already done cowling changes
on the RV's... changing the hub extensions...
know anything bout that?
D~
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Which Way Flap Brace? |
After hearing from several people who did or did not have the same problem I did
with getting the right side of the flap brace up, I came to these conclusions:
1. Make sure you have the right amount of overhang of bottom skin past the spar
as shown on drawing #17. It will be right if the bottom skin was made right and
the leading edge of it is right on the mark on the main spar. This is mainly
important so that the skin line of the wing will align with the skin line of the
flap both top and bottom. It also keeps you from having to rebend the flap brace
angles.
2. Cut your flap brace material to the plans length (the piece in the kit is
about 1/2" too long) carefully so you don't distort the bends on the piece you
cut off. Hold this piece up to the wing with one end against the spar and the
other against the wing skin, its trailing edge aligned with the trailing edge of
the wing skin. If it fits, fine. If not, turn it upside down and see if it fits
any better.
3. Whichever way the brace flanges fit flat against the skin and spar is the way
to use it. You can move the brace slightly fore or aft on the wing skin if you
don't mess up the later placement of the hinge. You can also modify the flange
angle but that is a pain.
One person told me that one of their braces came out right with it upside down
from the plans, but the other side brace was better right side up. The main
thing is not to allow incorrect angles in the flap brace to force the wing skin
into a bend aft of the spar.
Frank J.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin) |
I have been building on faith and testimony (of others) that the RV 6
flies superbly. Well I finally got a chance to get a demo ride in Van's
RV-6A at SUN N FUN today and cannot put into words the exhilaration it
produced for me. It will be days before they can wipe the SMILE :):)
off my face.
Gives a builder something to savor while building. Any of you fence
sitters out there .. sit no more the RV is a fantastic flyer.
Build on .. there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Harold Sutphin
RV6A //only 11,400 more rivets to go//
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Cowling Alterations? |
RE>>Cowling Alterations? 4/14/95 3:13 PM
Can you bolt a wood prop to the C/S extension? Are any more cowling alterations
needed for plan ol wood props? Are there any speed advantages to the new cowling?
Or the prop extension for that matter?
D~
--------------------------------------
Date: 4/14/95 2:29 PM
From: Don Wentz
I think they discontinued the 'standard' or non-C/S cowl for the -6 series.
The extensions are now shorter, no 'spool-type'. This eliminates the difficult
decision of which one to order.
IF someone still wants the longer cowl that uses the 4" prop extension, there
are several for sale in the RV market, mostly from folks who changed to C/S
after they got the finishing kits.
I recall that Ed Martinson in the Sacramento area showed me one that he wanted
to sell.
dw
Cowling Alterations? 4/14/95
10:58 AM
I just heard a blerb about some proposed/already done cowling changes
on the RV's... changing the hub extensions...
know anything bout that?
D~
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 13:20:49 PST
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.COM>
Subject: Re: Cowling Alterations?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Vixens body file |
> > 3. What's a Vixen body file?
>
> It's for filing female fox bodys. Sometimes they need it.
Have you been reading alt.fan.furry? :-)
Hmmm, this line of thought gives whole new meaning to "Rat Tail File".
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
>I have been building on faith and testimony (of others) that the RV 6
>flies superbly. Well I finally got a chance to get a demo ride in Van's
>RV-6A at SUN N FUN today and cannot put into words the >exhilaration it
>produced for me. It will be days before they can wipe the SMILE :):)
>off my face.
>Gives a builder something to savor while building. Any of you fence
>sitters out there .. sit no more the RV is a fantastic flyer.
Harold
I started building my RV-6 in 1987 and made the first flight in July 1989,
and I am still find myself grinning when I am flying it.
Jerry RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Super Koropon primer; priming the rudder |
RE> On a related topic: is there any aerodynamic reason not to put primer
RE> on the rudder? I'm thinking about flutter due to added weight. My
RE> suspicion is that primer weight is irrelevent, since one can put an
RE> entire position light on the rudder.
RE> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
RE> -- Richard M. Ernst
RE> ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu Department of Physics
RE> office: (501) 450-3808 Hendrix College
RE> fax: (501) 450-1200 1601 Harkrider St.
RE> Conway, AR 72032-3080
Richard:
I don't profess to be an aeronautical expert, but I have never heard of any
problem regarding flutter of the rudder. I certainly primed mine and everyone
else I know has done the same.
Does anyone else have an opinion?
Doug
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Frank Justice's RV Instru... |
ao> how do i get a copy of franks instructions? thanks, jim
Jim:
Forgot to put in the address. Contact Frank Justice at
Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com
Thanks,
Doug
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
MA> Liked your last Club newsletter, looking forward to May 13th.
MA> Thanks again!
MA> Larry Groom
MA> RV-6, A-320 F/O kind of guy.
MA> 6850 Hillcrest St SE
MA> Prior Lake, Minn 55372
MA> 612-440-4708
Larry:
Thanks for the message. I'll get the Justice files in the mail today. They
are great as you know. Of course, I'm flying over Easter, but that is the life
of a very, very, very low seniority pilot. We should have a interesting
meeting on the 13th. John Stevenson's RV-6 is a jewel!!
Doug
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
Gary Walters flew his RV-6, N95GW, for its first time today from Arlington
Airport in Washington State. His 3 1/2 year project looked great! I flew
chase in my RV-4 and got some great video of the event. I suspect we will
write up a more in depth article for an upcoming isssue of the Puget Sound
RVator. Just a note, I believe he is the 14th or 15th RV now based at
Arlington (Home of Glasair!)....Greg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca |
by mail.magic.ca (PostalUnion/SMTP 1.1.4)
| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim questions |
Doug Medema writes...
> 1) I believe someone mentioned that you couldn't over
> power full elevator trim using the stick. This would
> seem to indicate that you would never need trim tab
> deflections as great as allowed. I would like to
> limit my trim tab travel using the limit switches in
> the MAC trim servo. Does anyone know how far the trim
> tab should move relative to the elevator (in degrees)?
> I couldn't find any info about this in my instruction
> manual.
>
> 2) For those people who have installed electric trim --
> How are you routing the wires from the servo up into
> the fuselage? What did you use for protecting the wires
> where they go through aluminum ribs/spars/skins? How
> did you insure there would be no interference with the
> rudder and elevators from the wires? Where did you put
> connectors in (if any) to allow removal of the elevator?
Doug, you must be using the old style trim that has microswitches to turn
on LEDs at the end and centre of travel. The newer ones have avariable
output to drive a meter. Having taken one apart, I'd find it difficult to
alter the switches to use as a travel limit. It probably could be done
better with the newer ones, using the output to drive a comparator.
To get the cable to the front, I used 5 core multicore cable, routed
through the bulkheads using grommets. It goes to a junction box under the
seat where the relay is mounted. In that way, you only need a power cable
from the panel. (I reccomend a dedicated fuse/breaker).
To connect the elavator to the aircraft, I used a 5 pin din plug that
slides back into the elavator through a hole drilled in the horn.
Ken
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JHallRV4(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Vixens body file |
Questions:
1. Do I want a large floor-stand type drill press, or is one of the
shorter-stroke benchtop drill presses sufficient for this work?
2. Same question re: band saw.
3. What's a Vixen body file?
Joe, et al...
The only advantage of a floor stand over benchtop saw or drill press is the
savings of workbench top space, seems to me that floor space is a little bit
less critical than that 'ol benchtop. That was my only reason for one over
the over. Having said that, if you can pull the table-top types off the
table, and store them till you need them, then you lick the problem, but then
if it's just a little bitty job, you may not be inclined to haul the
admittedly heavy, cumbersom things out, and do everything the hard way. I
know what I'm capable of when it comes to hauling things out and setting them
up for small jobs. I usually won't do it, then I do it the hard way and don't
save any effort at all, oh well...
A vixen (body) file is a very coarse file used in body work, there is
pictures of them in the Manual for my RV4, and also in most of the RV tool
catalogues. Good stuff, makes short work of bar stock. Acts like it was made
for aluminum, but was actually made for lead. Jeff...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator trim questions |
On Sun, 16 Apr 1995 J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca wrote:
> To connect the elavator to the aircraft, I used a 5 pin din plug that
> slides back into the elavator through a hole drilled in the horn.
My two-cent's worth here. I really did not care for Mac's use of
DIN plugs as connectors. DIN plugs don't have a locking
mechanism (they may exist, but I've never seen them).
Amp makes some real nice lightweight plastic versions of the
old Cannon locking plugs (with the threaded locking ring).
Molex connectors are also locking, they are real cheap, and
I've used them for years with good results.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
Wing kit ships Thur.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chuck.jasicki(at)tclbbs.com (Chuck Jasicki) |
Hello,
Glad to be aboard the Net. I am 29 years old and still single. I
persuing a proffesional flying career. I am currently flying for a comm
airline (you know one of those dangerous ones as the media has informed
you). I started flying at 15 and have loved it since. I started buildi
my RV-6 shortly after my first flight with Jerry VanGrunsven, back in Oc
of 1993. Frankly progress has been a little slow. I recently started m
rudder, and have not done a whole lot of work on it since I got this new
computer. I guess I need another ride in an RV to keep the motivation u
Its like getting in a sports car after driving a bus all day. I found o
about the RV group on the net from Doug Weiler, who is the pres of our
local Rvators group here in the Minneapolis area. Hope to meet some
builders in OSH this year. May all your flights be safe and enjoyable.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | Portland area RV builders |
Hi all,
I am going to be in Portland, OR, starting tomorrow for about 1 week
(to attend the funeral of a family member, unfortunately...) and was
wondering if I could get a few phone numbers of Portland area builders
that I might be able to look up while I am out there. I don't know
for sure if I will have the time to do anything, but since I don't make it
out that way from NJ very often, I thought I'd bring along the info
just in case. It would be nice to meet some of you in person.
(Sorry for the bothering everybody with a request of local interest, but I
wasn't sure how else to do it...)
Thanks
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A (someday...)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Access Plate Screws |
I've just finished screwing down my first wing tank and access cover.
Those #@$% phillips(star) head screws have to be about the worst possible
choice for this application; lots of torque is required due to the
locking-platenuts, and its hard to put much pressure on the screws due to
the flexibility of the skin, particularily the access cover. As a result,
at least a third of my screws were damaged going in. Now, I did use an
electric screw gun for this, but I was pretty careful. Is there a better
way? Does someone make a TORX head screw of the appropriate AN size?
Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Vixens body file |
On Fri, 14 Apr 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > 1. Do I want a large floor-stand type drill press, or is one of the
> > shorter-stroke benchtop drill presses sufficient for this work?
>
> I think the bench top unit is the way to go. You can mount it on a
> wheeled cart and move it around your shop as the project demands it.
> They are also cheeper. I have mine mounted on a old (circa 1990) computer
> /diskdrive cabanet. The cabanet was made to house two winchedter type SMD
> disk drives not the little SCSI drives we use today. Computer surplus
> places might have this sort of thing.
A couple of comments here: Just make sure that whatever unit you buy is
capable of turning <500 rpm. I find most of my drill press work is
cutting lightening holes with a fly cutter. I couldn't find a bench-top
unit that would turn slowly enough, so I went with a stand-up. Actually,
the stand-up happened to be on sale for only a few bucks more than the
bench-top anyway. My press turns <200 rpm which is perfect for
fly-cutting. Of course, if you decide to use some other method for
cutting large holes (i.e. Malco cutter) then slow speed is not as
important a consideration.
One of the nice things about a stand-up drill press is that all the
shavings fall on the floor, not on your work bench. My bench grinder IS
mounted on my workbench and as a result, my bench is constantly covered
with aluminum dust. Arrrgh! The portable cart idea sounds like a good
one.
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Cowling Alterations? |
>Can you bolt a wood prop to the C/S extension?
There is a new extension designed specifically for the C/S cowl (from
Woofter Mfg, whom Van's gets their extensions from). C/S props don't use
separate extensions.
>Are any more cowling alterations needed for plain ol wood props?
No, the extension makes every thing fit.
>Are there any speed advantages to the new cowling?
No, the main advantage is Van can stock 1 cowl instead of 2 (part of
keeping costs down and supply lines full).
>Or the prop extension for that matter?
No. This extension uses longer bolts that capture the crush plate, prop, and
extension, all to the crank flange. This eliminates the separate bolts for the
extension. It does make torqueing slightly more difficult due to the required
removal of safety wire each time.
I initially did this so I could run a C/S cowl and have the option of upgrading
to a C/S prop later, without having to do ANY cowl mods.
If you have heartburn with this, as I said, there are several old-style 'long'
cowls avaliable in the RV market. The 'spool-type' extensions are also
available.
dw
D~
--------------------------------------
Date: 4/14/95 2:29 PM
From: Don Wentz
I think they discontinued the 'standard' or non-C/S cowl for the -6 series.
The extensions are now shorter, no 'spool-type'. This eliminates
the difficult
decision of which one to order.
IF someone still wants the longer cowl that uses the 4" prop extension, there
are several for sale in the RV market, mostly from folks who changed to C/S
after they got the finishing kits.
I recall that Ed Martinson in the Sacramento area showed me one that
he wanted
to sell.
dw
Cowling Alterations? 4/14/95
10:58 AM
I just heard a blerb about some proposed/already done cowling changes
on the RV's... changing the hub extensions...
know anything bout that?
D~
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 13:20:49 PST
From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.COM>
Subject: Re: Cowling Alterations?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
Curt,
Which are they, Phillips or star heads?
- Alan
On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Curt Reimer wrote:
>
> I've just finished screwing down my first wing tank and access cover.
> Those #@$% phillips(star) head screws have to be about the worst possible
> choice for this application; lots of torque is required due to the
> locking-platenuts, and its hard to put much pressure on the screws due to
> the flexibility of the skin, particularily the access cover. As a result,
> at least a third of my screws were damaged going in. Now, I did use an
> electric screw gun for this, but I was pretty careful. Is there a better
> way? Does someone make a TORX head screw of the appropriate AN size?
>
> Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
>
> -Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
All you need to do is change to stainless steel screws. The heads hold-up
much better, and the color is better anyway. Also, the threads hold much
better. This has been important on my spinner where they have to be taken
in and out often.
Let me know if you can't get them from Van's, I may be able to help thru
Duckworks.
dw
I've just finished screwing down my first wing tank and access cover.
Those #@$% phillips(star) head screws have to be about the worst possible
choice for this application; lots of torque is required due to the
locking-platenuts, and its hard to put much pressure on the screws due to
the flexibility of the skin, particularily the access cover. As a result,
at least a third of my screws were damaged going in. Now, I did use an
electric screw gun for this, but I was pretty careful. Is there a better
way? Does someone make a TORX head screw of the appropriate AN size?
Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
Text item:
>I've just finished screwing down my first wing tank and access cover.
>Those #@$% phillips(star) head screws have to be about the worst possible
>choice for this application; lots of torque is required due to the
>locking-platenuts, and its hard to put much pressure on the screws due to
>the flexibility of the skin, particularily the access cover. As a result,
>at least a third of my screws were damaged going in. Now, I did use an
>electric screw gun for this, but I was pretty careful. Is there a better
>way? Does someone make a TORX head screw of the appropriate AN size?
>
>Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
Had the same trouble myself; could have sworn the platenuts were 8-36 instead of
8-32. (Maybe they really are). Twisted the head clean off one and had to drill
it out. Then tried a little oil on each screw and things went much better. Also,
There are all sizes and shapes of #2 phillips bits. Experiment until you find
one that grips best in those particular screws. The cadmium plating on those
screws is kind of slick.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Access Plate Screws
From: Curt Reimer <NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA!Curt_Reimer(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 13:45:49 -0500 (CDT)
.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
I tried to e-mail this directly to Gil Alexander, but it bounced. I'm
shopping around for an epoxy primer, and had no luck in finding DeSoto,
maker of Super Koropon primer. Gil suggested Dexter Aerospace epoxy
primer, sold by Aircraft Spruce.
Thanks for the info on epoxy primers. I tried Aircraft Spruce for the
Dexter primer, but they apparently don't carry it. Is there another name I
should ask for, or is it available from another vendor? A few more
questions:
Do you remember the approximate price for, say, a gallon of primer and a
gallon of activator?
Is a solvent needed or recommended?
What is the approximate shelf life after opening the containers?
Thanks for your help,
Rick
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider St.
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Access Plate Screws -Reply |
I had the same problem on my Elevator
mounting cover.
I just returned from Sun & Fun wandering
the flight line looking at tank installs
and saw a RV6 there with some very odd
shaped screw slots on the tanks. They were
like phillips with three points but they
where tilted sort of like those mag wheels
on a Saturn SC2. Looked interesting, I
don't know if they are any better. I have
never seen anything like them in Torx and
such.
I looked at the name on the prop card and
it was Barnhard or something like that. Is
that the guy that does the wing kits? May
be he has some trick screws. Maybe he'll
only sell wing kits.
Jim
>>> Curt Reimer
04/17/95
12:45pm >>>
I've just finished screwing down my first
wing tank and access cover. Those #@$%
phillips(star) head screws have to be about
the worst possible choice for this
application; lots of torque is required due
to the locking-platenuts, and its hard to
put much pressure on the screws due to the
flexibility of the skin, particularily the
access cover. As a result, at least a
third of my screws were damaged going in.
Now, I did use an electric screw gun for
this, but I was pretty careful. Is there a
better way? Does someone make a TORX head
screw of the appropriate AN size?
Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Frank K Justice wrote:
> Had the same trouble myself; could have sworn the platenuts were 8-36 instead
of
> 8-32. (Maybe they really are). Twisted the head clean off one and had to drill
> it out. Then tried a little oil on each screw and things went much better. Also,
> There are all sizes and shapes of #2 phillips bits. Experiment until you find
> one that grips best in those particular screws. The cadmium plating on those
> screws is kind of slick.
I had to drill one out also after I stripped the head. It got me to
thinking that it might be simpler just to pop rivet the access plate on!
I didn't realize that there were different #2 phillips bits. I ground the
tip of mine down a bit and it is now a MUCH better fit. I'll try a drop of
oil also, but stainless sounds like the way to go.
Thanks,
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, A. Reichert wrote:
> Curt,
>
> Which are they, Phillips or star heads?
They are this kind => (+)
I've always known them to be Phillips head, but I thought I heard the term
star head used to describe them as well. I thought maybe the Phillips
designation was a Canadian thing. We also have Robertson head screws
here. They have a square socket. Not as good as a Torx head, but they've
been around forever and work much better than a Phillips head.
Anyway, is a star head really something else altogether?
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klgray(at)bihs.net (Ken Gray) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
I used an electric screwdriver also. On the bit, grind a little off of the
point and it seems to fit the screw better. I did see one person up near
Dallas who used allen head screws, but I do not know where he got them and
the screws that hold on the fuel tanks are structure type.
Question? If you go to stainless, don't they have less strenght.
Ken Gray
Bryan, Tx.
Waiting on final kit, should be shipped 5/15.
SN: 23069 RV-6
>
>I've just finished screwing down my first wing tank and access cover.
>Those #@$% phillips(star) head screws have to be about the worst possible
>choice for this application; lots of torque is required due to the
>locking-platenuts, and its hard to put much pressure on the screws due to
>the flexibility of the skin, particularily the access cover. As a result,
>at least a third of my screws were damaged going in. Now, I did use an
>electric screw gun for this, but I was pretty careful. Is there a better
>way? Does someone make a TORX head screw of the appropriate AN size?
>
>Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
>
>-Curt
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Gil Alexander wrote:
> Curt,
> If you will take commercial grade screws, I have a catalog at home
> of "square drive" screws (mainly wood screws, but some are machine screws).
> Let me know if you are interested and I will get the catalog phone #. I
> have found that the square drive screws are much better than #@$% Philips.
>
> ... Aren't they even a Canadian standard??? ... just noticed your
> e-mail address!!
Yes, they are known as Robertson screws. I'm not sure if I want to use
non-AN hardware, especially for the tank attachment. I think it is also
technically illegal in Canada to use non-AN grade hardware in a
homebuilt.
Besides, don't AN screws have a 104.7 degree countersink angle, just
to be different? :)
Thanks for the help,
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Access Plate Screws |
Actually, even with stainless when I was installing some #6 screws, I found them
easy to break in new platenuts, until we started putting a little dab of grease
on them before installing for the first time (another option is pre-tapping, but
that would damage the locking properties and the grease is much quicker).
So Frank's advice about a properly fitting tip and some lubricant is right-on.
BTW, I always use the screws that come in the kits, until final assembly, at
which time I pull them and throw the bad ones away as I replace them with the SS
versions. This way you have new screws, since it seems like during assembly you
are always putting them in, taking them out, putting them in, taking them
out......
dw
On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Frank K Justice wrote:
> Had the same trouble myself; could have sworn the platenuts were
8-36 instead of
> 8-32. (Maybe they really are). Twisted the head clean off one and
had to drill
> it out. Then tried a little oil on each screw and things went much
better. Also,
> There are all sizes and shapes of #2 phillips bits. Experiment until
you find
> one that grips best in those particular screws. The cadmium plating on those
> screws is kind of slick.
I had to drill one out also after I stripped the head. It got me to
thinking that it might be simpler just to pop rivet the access plate on!
I didn't realize that there were different #2 phillips bits. I ground the
tip of mine down a bit and it is now a MUCH better fit. I'll try a drop of
oil also, but stainless sounds like the way to go.
Thanks,
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws (fwd) |
On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Curt Reimer wrote:
[ snip ]
> Anyway, is a star head really something else altogether?
>
> -Curt
To me, a star head screw has three slots at 60 degrees to each other (*),
a phillips has two at 90 degrees (+). Haven't seen the star type used in
too many applications, though.
_________________________________________________
| Alan Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| Wannabe RV-6 Builder - Preview Plans Received! |
| Study......study......study......study...... |
|_________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | the 'funny' screws |
Jim, I know about the 3 slot screws.
I bought some from Sid Golden several years back.
He was promoting using them on the RV fuel tanks because
they had a 'shallower' head and caused less distortion
close to the edge of the tank skin.
I think they were actually a number 10 shank but had
the head the size of number 8 but shallower.
The screw takes a special 3 point tool to install them.
I think they were used by places like Lockeed or Boeing.
I don't have a part number however.
They were kind of expensive. I bought them and then
did not use them as I experimented with the normal
screw Van's uses and these and found what Van provided
worked OK.
For the fuel access cover I would think that a screw with
an allen head would work well as the allen wrench will not slip out.
What I used however was the 'washer head' screws. Don't
recall the AN number now, maybe AN525. I liked these as
they had a larger bearing area under the head. They still
have the phillips head however.
> I had the same problem on my Elevator
> mounting cover.
>
> I just returned from Sun & Fun wandering
> the flight line looking at tank installs
> and saw a RV6 there with some very odd
> shaped screw slots on the tanks. They were
> like phillips with three points but they
> where tilted sort of like those mag wheels
> on a Saturn SC2. Looked interesting, I
> don't know if they are any better. I have
> never seen anything like them in Torx and
> such.
>
> I looked at the name on the prop card and
> it was Barnhard or something like that. Is
> that the guy that does the wing kits? May
> be he has some trick screws. Maybe he'll
> only sell wing kits.
>
> Jim
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Access Plate Screws |
Stainless steel screws, especially the marine grade (316) such as is
used in military hardware, are a nice substitute since the fuel tank
access covers are slightly exposed to weather. They are stronger than
the screws supplied by Van's, but you actually don't need much strength
here. The screws should be tightened only enough to partially compress
the gasket and no more.
If you don't feel like chasing replacement hardware, just use the screws
supplied in the kit and put a little oil on the threads. They are more
than satisfactory for the job with the plating to resist corrosion.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
At the risk of beating this subject to death, I had the same complaint about
the tank screws. I use a little wax on the threads on the first time I screw
them in. It works great, and isn't as messy as oil or grease. It doesn't dry
out either. I just rub the screw on an old candle. I also have a small hunk
of paraffin wax I use when I can find it.
>
>Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
>
>-Curt
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | idea on phillips head screws |
A few yrs ago, I saw that Sears has a phillips head screw drivers
that the tips were rough instead of smooth chrome. They were marketed as
providing a better grip. It looked as if they were sand plasted.
So, you may try sandblasting the ends of a phillips head screw driver
so that it is rough and will not skip out of the screw head.
Also, I have some tips that are just black oxide (not chromed) and they
also grip better.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
>
> Yes, they are known as Robertson screws. I'm not sure if I want to use
> non-AN hardware, especially for the tank attachment. I think it is also
> technically illegal in Canada to use non-AN grade hardware in a
> homebuilt.
>
I agree with sticking to AN screws for the tank attach -- remember
that the screws are there not just to hold the tank on the wing, they
also are integral to the structural integrity of the wing itself.
The screws that came with the kit for the access plates sure don't look
like AN, and in fact looked so lame that I just went out and bought
some stainless for the covers. Of course they're not structural, but
I've been thinking I might go find some of those AN525 washer head
screws anyway, to take advantage of the large bearing surface which
should help to minimize the chance of leaks around the screw heads. Too
bad I didn't think of that when I was cruising the booths at Sun-N-Fun
last week.... :-)
>
> Besides, don't AN screws have a 104.7 degree countersink angle, just
> to be different? :)
>
Yes they're 100 degrees which is different from the 87 degree angle
used by common non-AN screws. I bought a bunch of 5/16" short, non-AN
screws, for temporary attachment use. Since they don't run all the way
thru the nut plate, they make it much easier to attach and remove the
tank while working on it. I figure I'll just use them until final
attachment with the AN screws. The screw dimple dies and machine
countersink bits are turned to the 100 degree angle so the non-AN ones
don't fit as well, but that doesn't matter for temporary use, as long
as you don't tighten them up too much and mess up the dimple.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
>
> >
> >Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
> >
> >-Curt
>
I have found that most times when there is a problem with Phillips screws
it can be traced to the driver. A #2 Phillips driver has a flat spot on the
tip to match the flat spot in the screw. The four points of the driver tip
should contact the outside edges of the depression in the screw. If there
is any gap, you are using a driver that is too small. This results in
stripped heads as well as dammaging the driver. If the driver shows wear,
get a new driver. Most tool brands worth owning have lifetime replacement.
A worn tip on a driver qualifys for replacement. The Sears tool department
hates to see me come in. I don't buy any more, I just trade old for new.
If the screw shows wear, get a new screw. They're cheep and it sure beats
drilling out screws after the head is stripped. In the last five years I
have replaced almost every screw in 85W. It looks better and makes the annual
less of a pain. Stainless is nice but don't use them to fasten the tanks to
the wing. They are'nt as strong as the steel version.
Death to used screws (and worn drivers) --Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | HAVE PROP, MAKE OFFER |
I have a used Warneke prop for a Lycoming O-320, 160 HP. It includes prop
extension and all the accessories. It is 71"D x 72" P,and worked good on my
-6. In fact it is still on the plane, and will be until I get my Hartzell.
If any builders need a prop for their project, it would be ideal and less
money than new. It has been flying for 3 yrs. and 300 hrs. with no problems.
Respond to my address as I'm not on the list.
Jim Anglin
RV14JA(at)AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[n]: Access Plate Screws |
>>
>> >
>> >Death to the Phillips Head Screw!
>> >
*** stuff deleted ***
> Stainless is nice but don't use them to fasten the tanks to
>the wing. They are'nt as strong as the steel version.
>
> Death to used screws (and worn drivers) --Chris
I've been told from the Bakerfield guys not to use the stainless
screws on the tank attach if you are going to paint over the screws (most
RVs I've seen regard these tank attachments as "non-service" items, and
paint over them at the same time as the wing). Apparently it's harder for
the paint to stick to the stainless than the cadmium plating of the
standard AN screws. Use the stainless screws for those things you will
remove for regular maintenance, and don't paint them.
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... working on the fuselage insides
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[n]: Access Plate Screws |
>I've been told from the Bakerfield guys not to use the stainless
>screws on the tank attach if you are going to paint over the screws (most
>RVs I've seen regard these tank attachments as "non-service" items, and
>paint over them at the same time as the wing). Apparently it's harder
>for the paint to stick to the stainless than the cadmium plating of the
>standard AN screws. Use the stainless screws for those things you will
>remove for regular maintenance, and don't paint them.
>... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... working on the fuselage insides
That's true, but I specifically don't like the appearance of painted
screws, so I put all new SS in all exterior locations, after painting.
I hope they aren't 'a lot' weaker than the std screws. I guess I'll let
you know if my tanks fall off!
don wentz, N790DW, RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca (Shirley Hobenshield) |
| Subject: | Rudder pedals & toe brakes |
Has anyone come across a problem with proper installment of the toe brakes
on the rudder bar?
We have the ones with the cylinders mounted on brackets that fit on the
inside ( or between ) ones feet.
The problem is, that once the cylinders are bolted in place, they hold the
toe brakes much too forward and my big feet apply the brakes while using
the balls of my feet on the rudder bar.
My heels are on the floor when this happens.
It seems a reattachment of the cylinder mounts or a reriviting of the toe
brakes is needed?
There must be others with size 12 feet out there. What mod did you use?
Signed Big-Foot.
Ed Hobenshield
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Shirley Hobenshield shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
Kitwanga Elem. Jr. Sec. 604-849-5484
Box 88
Kitwanga, BC, Canada
V0J 2A0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
>
> ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... working on the fuselage insides
>
> That's true, but I specifically don't like the appearance of painted
> screws, so I put all new SS in all exterior locations, after painting.
> I hope they aren't 'a lot' weaker than the std screws. I guess I'll let
> you know if my tanks fall off!
>
> don wentz, N790DW, RV-6
>
I think you should talk to a AI about using the SS screws to
mount the tank. I put them in 85W and was told by my AI that
it was not a very good idea. He wouldn't put his name in the book
unless I replaced tham all with the standard screws Piper warms
about it in the airframe manual. The package that the screws came
in even had an a warning that said something like "Don't use these
screws to mount wing tanks". 85W is back to flying with the ugly
Cad plated things.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws -Reply |
Hi, Randall glad to see you made it back.
Was great to put one face with the names on
this list.
Has any one ever thought of putting a fibre
washer under the access cover screw heads.?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RGS4%PClOs%PS(at)bangate.pge.com |
| Subject: | Re: re:Re: Access Plate Screws |
Chris,
I just replaced the wing tank cover screws on my Cessna 150 Taildragger. It's
OK to use SS screws, if they are of the proper type. The wing screws in the
Cessna are also critical to the wing integrity. I bought mine from D&D, a
aircraft mail-order firm.
My AI also was not going to approve the installation, he's also Mechanical
Engineer. But did so later, on the basis of the technical data that D&D sent
him.
I don't have the info on D&D with me (Trade a Plane, etc.), but can sent later
if someone needs it.
Dick
rgs4(at)pge.com
----------------------[Reply - Original Message]----------------------
Sent by:Chris Ruble
>
> ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... working on the fuselage insides
>
> That's true, but I specifically don't like the appearance of painted
> screws, so I put all new SS in all exterior locations, after painting.
> I hope they aren't 'a lot' weaker than the std screws. I guess I'll let
> you know if my tanks fall off!
>
> don wentz, N790DW, RV-6
>
I think you should talk to a AI about using the SS screws to
mount the tank. I put them in 85W and was told by my AI that
it was not a very good idea. He wouldn't put his name in the book
unless I replaced tham all with the standard screws Piper warms
about it in the airframe manual. The package that the screws came
in even had an a warning that said something like "Don't use these
screws to mount wing tanks". 85W is back to flying with the ugly
Cad plated things.
Chris
=====================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fried" <t42444(at)perf2.dehavilland.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
Will it never end? Enough already, somebody please post something
about a flight they have had or whatever. There has to be more to life than
Phillips Head Screws.
Dave Fried
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | driehl(at)PEINet.pe.CA (David Riehl) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
>
> I think you should talk to a AI about using the SS screws to
>mount the tank.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
There were no failures of the stainless screws in my RV-4 during a 12G Plus
crash in 1992. Little else was left that was not bent or broken. Pilot
(partner) & passenger (me) walked (hobbled) away.
As for access cover screws, try hex head screws. These can be removed &
replaced with the wings on the airframe.
David C-GRVF(destroyed)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RGS4%PClOs%PS(at)bangate.pge.com |
| Subject: | re: Access Plate Screws |
Dave,
Could you give us some of the details of your crash. Not to bring up bad
memories, but we all would like to avoid the same problem(s).
Dick
----------------------[Reply - Original Message]----------------------
There were no failures of the stainless screws in my RV-4 during a 12G Plus
crash in 1992. Little else was left that was not bent or broken. Pilot
(partner) & passenger (me) walked (hobbled) away.
As for access cover screws, try hex head screws. These can be removed &
replaced with the wings on the airframe.
David C-GRVF(destroyed)
=====================================================================
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Access Plate Screws |
> I think you should talk to a AI about using the SS screws to
>mount the tank. I put them in 85W and was told by my AI that
>it was not a very good idea. He wouldn't put his name in the book
>unless I replaced tham all with the standard screws Piper warms
>about it in the airframe manual. The package that the screws came
>in even had an a warning that said something like "Don't use these
>screws to mount wing tanks". 85W is back to flying with the ugly
>Cad plated things.
I agree. SS is fine for the tank access covers since there is low stress, but
even the 316 stainless I mentioned before can be only about 1/2 the strength of
the AN screws.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder pedals & toe brakes |
Ed, I made my own brake pedals, but have a little of the same issue you have.
It seems the geometry of where the cylinder mounts to the arm on the pedal is
hard to get right. If you could move the mounting hole on that arm, you could
change the geometry.
I am considering trying to raise my rudder bar assemblies 1/2 to 1 inch to
improve where my feet land on the bars/pedals.
don wentz, RV-6, N790DW
>Has anyone come across a problem with proper installment of the toe brakes
o>n the rudder bar?
>We have the ones with the cylinders mounted on brackets that fit on the
>inside ( or between ) ones feet.
>The problem is, that once the cylinders are bolted in place, they hold the
>toe brakes much too forward and my big feet apply the brakes while using
>the balls of my feet on the rudder bar.
>My heels are on the floor when this happens.
>It seems a reattachment of the cylinder mounts or a reriviting of the toe
>brakes is needed?
>There must be others with size 12 feet out there. What mod did you use?
>Signed Big-Foot.
>Ed Hobenshield
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[n]: Access Plate Screws |
On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, Don Wentz wrote:
> That's true, but I specifically don't like the appearance of painted
> screws, so I put all new SS in all exterior locations, after painting.
> I hope they aren't 'a lot' weaker than the std screws. I guess I'll
let
> you know if my tanks fall off!
I don't quite follow how the stainless screws can be both harder (resist
stripping) yet weaker than the 4130 screws. Isn't harder steel generally
stronger (but more brittle) ?
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws |
>
> Will it never end? Enough already, somebody please post something
> about a flight they have had or whatever. There has to be more to life than
> Phillips Head Screws.
>
> Dave Fried
Well, I had an experience with slotted head screws last week that you
might be interested in hearing about.....
:-) :-) :-)
But seriously, I just got back from an awesome trip to Sun-n-Fun & back
in Van's RV-6T/B. Too much to write down in a short time, but I'll be
posting something about that sometime. Something to look forward to
maybe....?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James A. Cone" <73644.136(at)compuserve.com> |
I am new to this form of comunications. I am the editor of Van's Air Force,
Tri-State Wing newsletter, which is more oriented toward builders tips and
suggestions than local news. I would like to get tips and ideas to put into the
newsletter. I am not sure how to do this. Is there a forum for RV'ers and how
do I get on it? The item in the RV-ator was not very helpful to me. Any help
that you can offer will be very appreciated. You can reach me at compuserve
address: 73644.136(at)compuserve.com. Thanks. Jim Cone.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Aviation Fasteners |
On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Dave Fried wrote:
> Will it never end? Enough already, somebody please post something
> about a flight they have had or whatever. There has to be more to life than
> Phillips Head Screws.
Careful, or I'll forward your message to the Association of Phillips Head
Screw Engineers. Some people base their whole careers on Phillips Head
Screws, ya know.
Notice how I at least changed the Subject: line! :)
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | This is not about Screws |
On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, David Riehl wrote:
> There were no failures of the stainless screws in my RV-4 during a 12G Plus
> crash in 1992. Little else was left that was not bent or broken. Pilot
> (partner) & passenger (me) walked (hobbled) away.
Can you elaborate on your crash? Thanks.
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Access Plate Screws |
Text item:
Okay Randall, that's your cue. (Randall just got back from a coast to
coast trip from Hillsboro, OR to Sun-n-Fun in an RV!)
What did you see there? What about Van's display?
Earl
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Access Plate Screws
Date: 4/20/95 1:31 PM
Will it never end? Enough already, somebody please post something
about a flight they have had or whatever. There has to be more to life than
Phillips Head Screws.
Dave Fried
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Access Plate Screws
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:31:28 -0400
From: "Dave Fried" <perf2.dehavilland.ca!t42444(at)matronics.com>
1)
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <ewbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Okay Randall, that's your cue. (Randall just got back from a coast to
coast trip from Hillsboro, OR to Sun-n-Fun and back in an RV!)
What did you see there? What about Van's display?
Earl
______________________________ Reply Separator ________________________________
_
Subject: Re: Access Plate Screws
Date: 4/20/95 1:31 PM
Will it never end? Enough already, somebody please post something
about a flight they have had or whatever. There has to be more to life than
Phillips Head Screws.
Dave Fried
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re(2): Access Plate Screws |
>There were no failures of the stainless screws in my RV-4 during a 12G Plus
>crash in 1992. Little else was left that was not bent or broken. Pilot
>(partner) & passenger (me) walked (hobbled) away.
Any lessons/morales from this incident. Glad crew were ok, but what about an
account of the incident?
Ken 6A
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Daveiator(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | stop subscription |
please stop my newsgroup subscription
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | driehl(at)PEINet.pe.CA (David Riehl) |
| Subject: | re: RV-4 C-GRVF crash |
>Dave,
>
>Could you give us some of the details of your crash. Not to bring up bad
>memories, but we all would like to avoid the same problem(s).
>
>Dick
>
>----------------------[Reply - Original Message]----------------------
>
>
>There were no failures of the stainless screws in my RV-4 during a 12G Plus
>crash in 1992. Little else was left that was not bent or broken. Pilot
>(partner) & passenger (me) walked (hobbled) away.
>
>
> David C-GRVF(destroyed)
>
>
>=====================================================================
>
>
At about 10:15 am, April 19, 1992 (Easter Sunday), RV-4 C-GRVF was
destroyed during takeoff . The flight lasted 13 seconds from the time
the tailwheel lifted. As the aircraft left the ground, the pilot in
command started a steep climb at approx. 60 knots. At about 70 feet
AGL the pitch was reduced and the plane was rolled left to between
60 - 80 degrees bank. During this turn and at about 90 degree course
change, the pilot felt stall through the controls.
He immediately tried to roll level and pushed the nose down approx.
forty five deg. The ground got real close, real fast. Trying to stop
the dive by pulling, a secondary stall could be felt through the
airframe. The aircraft impacted in a very wet, ploughed field beside
the runway.The atitude at impact was 5 to 10 deg. nose down and
slightly left wing low. With the shallow impact angle, the plane
bounced (slipped) 75 feet and impacted again on damp turf,sliding
a further 100 feet. The right gear leg and mount socket departed
on the first impact and the left gear folded under. The G Meter was
pegged 12+ and 5.5- . You can't hold your head up at 12 G's.
This sort of thing spoils your whole day.
The canopy sprung it's latchings on impact. This allowed me to push
it aside quickly from the rear seat. I exited a bit dazed, and the
pilot was helped out within seconds by others. Onlookers had been
standing within 100 feet of where the plane stopped sliding.
The ability of the RV-4's structure to absorb the impact and good
Hooker belts saved our lives.
All structures except the horz. and vert. stabilizers and rudder were
bent. Both fuel tanks ruptured at fuselage attach fittings due to
rearward displacement of the wing tips. The rear spar carrythrough
structure failed.
I love RV's and will build another someday.
"THE MOST FUN YOU CAN HAVE IN AN AIRPLANE."
Be carefull, as these planes will make you think that you are
better than you are ! The pilot had about 100 on type but only one
other flight in the previous five months.
DAVID
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Propeller switch |
Recently switched from one of BAD metal props to an "approved" Aymar-demuth.
I ran 203.8 in the 1994 Sun 100, and I saw speeds at or about 218 indicated @
2850RPM, 31" MP, 800'MSL. My partner said he was concerned about those
dangerous metal props, so we selected the A-D prop at Larry Vetterman's
advice. Itook the plane up the other nite for a run --I didn't like the
results.205 MPH @ 1500'MSL, 29.9"MP, 2950 RPM. Looks about 13 MPH SLOWER with
more RPM. I gotta say I like the way this prop climbs, but I spend more of my
time cruising. I'll have to put my GIB in the plane and race Bob Siebert in
his -6. We could run just about even before, with him running about 50 RPM
more than me at top speed.
I'll let ya know.
Mark
PS I've got painted cad plated screws on my -4. Whoopee.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-6A Construction |
I would like to start a dialog with others building an RV-6A. I am just
finishing the empennage.
I live in Victoria, Texas.
Regards,
Gus Aguirre
Gaguirre(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | driehl(at)PEINet.pe.CA (David Riehl) |
| Subject: | RV crash - further info |
A few points I forgot to mention.
Even though the aircraft was stalled, it continued to
accelerate under full power. Speed at impact was estimated
at 100 knots. The wooden prop shattered instantly. We later found
pieces up to 250 feet away (laterially) from the point of
impact. The engine received no damage due to the shallow angle at
impact. The main spars held up very well. The left wing bent
upward about 15 degrees outboard of the stiffeners.
The tail of the aircraft did not impact the ground at any time.
The elevator trailing edges were both bent due to positive G loads
acting on the counter balance weight (force trying to raise the
elevator) and +G's trying to lower elevator.
The crash is on video. From inside the plane. I was taping the takeoff
from the rear seat. Continued to shoot until the camera was destroyed
against the canopy on the secondary impact.
Some parts of the RV-4 are finding new life in a Harmon
Rocket II that my former partner is building. He started in Dec.94
and should fly in June 95. He farmed out the wing assembly and has
had one of his employees ( a former RV-3 builder ) helping him with
the rest of the structure.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aviation Fasteners |
>Careful, or I'll forward your message to the Association of Phillips Head
>Screw Engineers. Some people base their whole careers on Phillips Head
>Screws, ya know.
How can I get to be a screw engineer? I'm tired of being a deburring technician.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob_Seibert-R18643(at)email.sps.mot.com |
Sun & Fun
I thought I would drop a line about one of those happenings that RV'ers stumble
into once in a while. It makes all those rivets and gas tanks worthwhile.
Diane and I were cruising back from S&F with a ground speed of 200+ mph (tail winds
ALWAYS require payback) when we ran smack into a line of Tstorms over the
Sabine River on the Texas/Louisiana border. The emergency search on the Flybuddy
said Newton County was "it". We landed amid gusts of wind, blown rain and
thunder.
The airport manager, Burnett Low, met us on the ramp. I think he was as suprised
as we were! Burnett is a real airplane person but he had never seen an RV before.
He loved it! Burnett immediatly cleared a spot in his hangar,gave us a hand
getting the plane in and drug us into the office out of the rain. In talking
to flight service, it was evident we weren't going anywhere soon. I don't want
to say Newton is a small town, but they do not have taxis OR motels. Burnett
had a solution though, he was going to take us home for the night! Diane and
I found out that Jasper, Texas had motels and restaurants so rather than disrupt
Burnett's evening, we asked if we could catch a ride into Jasper (20 miles).
Burnett oked that idea but only if we would take his car!
To make this long story a little shorter, the next morning dawned clear. We were
aut at the airport at 8 AM and Burnett Low was there to meet us and flatter
us some more about the RV-6. Burnett would not take a penny for hangar fees or
the use of his car. (we did fill up his tank)
The rest of the trip to Georgetown, Tx. was into the expected headwind but we both
were still distracted by the kindness of Burnett Low.
If you are ever near Newton County Texas, be aware there is a real good old boy
down there! If the deburring starts getting you down, just remember that its
all worth it.
PS -- Be glad you are not building a Glasair. I hear they have to use composite
phillips head screws. The heads are made of jello and the shank is glass.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws -Reply |
JIM SCHMIDT said
>
> Hi, Randall glad to see you made it back.
>
> Was great to put one face with the names on
> this list.
>
> Has any one ever thought of putting a fibre
> washer under the access cover screw heads.?
>
Good idea. I experimented with making little o-rings out of buna-n
gasket material but that didn't work out too well. Washer head AN
screws, fiber washers, and fuel lube should be just the ticket!
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (Sun-n-fun writeup forthcoming)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws -Reply -Reply |
Jim Schmidt said:
> I alumi-prepped my left tank last night
> will alodine tonight and get my "hands on"
> with the dreaded Pro-seal this weekend.
A couple of hints about alodyning your tanks, and alodyne in general:
I wanted to alodyne my tank parts for max corrosion protection, but I
had some concern about it as I've experienced varying amounts of
alodyne residue on other parts I've done. Not anything to worry about
normally but I was afraid it might interfere with a perfect bond of the
pro-seal. I talked to Tom Green about this and he told me something
that I hadn't heard before, which is that the proper dwell time for
alodyne will change with the hardness of the material (makes sense),
which will change with the AGE of the material (hadn't thought of
that). Sure enough, when Rion and I alodyned our tank parts
prior to prosealing, my parts all developed more residue in the same
amount of dwell time than Rion's. Mine were about a year newer than
his, and apparenly his had age hardened that much more, so the alodyne
didn't react as quickly as it did with mine.
I wiped most of it off during the rinse and I'm sure it will be fine, but
the moral is, if you want to avoid excessive residue, be aware of the
potential discrepancies in dwell time based on the age of the
material. A light gold color of the metal without much or any residue
is what you're shooting for.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Now at 204 Active Members! |
Hello everyone!
With tonights subscription update, there are now 204 active members on the
RV-LIST! Wow! And I remember when there were only about 25 or so of us
babbling on about RVs... :-) Keep up the good dialog.
Matt Dralle
RV-LIST Admin.
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis P. Kane" <aeldra(at)netcom.netcom.com> |
Does anyone have some thoughts on placement of the Cessna type heated
pitot tube. I read Frank Justice's note regarding placement on the
leading edge and was wondering if it might stick too far out. Is there a
position dictated by the geometry of the wing ? ie: x % of the Chord line
or simil.
Thanks all
Dennis Kane
STRAYlight Aviation Ephemera
RV-6 Emp & Wings
dennis(at)straylight.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Recieved RV-6 wing kit on last wed. Kit came with predrilled
skins. Has anyone experienced problems with PP skins? If so,
what areas should I anticipate as problems?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
JAC> I am new to this form of comunications. I am the editor of Van's Air
JAC> Force, Tri-State Wing newsletter, which is more oriented toward
JAC> builders tips and suggestions than local news. I would like to get
JAC> tips and ideas to put into the newsletter. I am not sure how to do
JAC> this. Is there a forum for RV'ers and how do I get on it? The item in
JAC> the RV-ator was not very helpful to me. Any help that you can offer
JAC> will be very appreciated. You can reach me at compuserve address:
JAC> 73644.136(at)compuserve.com. Thanks. Jim Cone.
Jim Cone:
Welcome to the RV-List. I'm glad to see another newsletter editor has
discovered us. I've have only been a part of this group for a few weeks, but I
find it one of the most valuable sources of RV info I've run across yet. I'm
sure everyone on the "List" will support my enthusiasm. I've learned more great
little tips and tidbits in the last several weeks than in the last 4 years of RV
building. I'm sure you are aware of the Archives that Matt Dralle has available
which probably contain enough tips to help us through a whole squadron of RV
building and many, many years worth of newsletters.
I'm just about to start working on the June issue of the RVator's Log and I
intend to include a big article about the RV-List. By the way, the Tri-State
Wing's newsletter is just great. Keep up the good work. You have been able to
focus well on building tips more more than I have!
Again, thanks to everyone on the RV-List for this informative means of
communication. Makes me look forward to cranking up the computer each day.
P.S. Thanks to Dave Riehl for relating the story of his accident. A very
sobering account.
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Internet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Timings and such |
Question: how long from calling Van's will it take to receive the tail kit?
Also, does the "crating charge" include shipping? If not, can anyone give
me a ballpark estimate to ship to Minnesota.
I want to start on the airplane in mid-June, and I'm trying to plan when to
order things.
Also -- I've been trying to send email to Doug Weiler -- the editor of the
Mn Wing. Doug - can you send me email on joining the wing? Thanks.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ffreiman(at)ix.netcom.com (Fran Freiman) |
subscribe rv-list
Thanks
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fran Locher Freiman, Owner, Editor | "The young boys throw stones
WordRight Editorial Consulting Services | at the frogs in sport,
Houston, TX 77070 | but the frogs do not die in sport;
Email: ffreiman(at)ix.netcom.com | they die in earnest."
--Samuel Beckett
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
>Does anyone have some thoughts on placement of the Cessna type heated
>pitot tube. I read Frank Justice's note regarding placement on the
>leading edge and was wondering if it might stick too far out. Is there a
>position dictated by the geometry of the wing ? ie: x % of the Chord line
>or simil.
The directions that came with the tube I bought said the opening should be at
least 6" below the wing to keep it in undisturbed air.
After looking at a bunch of factory airplanes and hearing from a lot of other
people who put heated tubes on their RV, I think the best place is right on the
spar flange in the main part of the wing where you can access it through the
bellcrank access hole. This is a very rigid location with easy access for
replacement and should have relatively undisturbed airflow.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robin.Hall(at)uwoadmin.uwo.ca |
| Subject: | Hi I'am new to rv-list |
Hi All
I'am New to the list and am just posting some personal information FYI.
My name is Robin Hall, I am a chemical lab supervisor at the University
Of Western Ontario where I have Been employed for 20 years. I have been
flying for 8 years and hold a Canadian Commercial Ticket. Although not
currently building an rv I'am thinking abought an RV-6A. I have assisted
in construction of a kitfox 1V and as well a scratch (plans built)
skybolt for some friends here, learned a lot!. Age forty married with three
sons ages 23,21,16. Well just saying hello and look forward to hearing from
other rv-er's your problems and solutions. Bye for now.
Robin.Hall(at)uwo.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Timings and such (fwd) |
Shipping is extra as this depends on where it is shipped 'to'.
The RV Newsletter usually lists what the waiting time is for various
kits. The tail kits are usually just a few weeks. Things like the
wing kits can be several months. Just call Van's and ask them.
Herman
> From root Sun Apr 23 17:21:13 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> From: kksys!showpg!jpl(at)matronics.com (Joe Larson)
> Reply-To: showpg!jpl(at)matronics.com (Joe Larson)
> Message-Id: <9504232013.AA20698@showpg.>
> Subject: Timings and such
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 15:13:43 -0500 (CDT)
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Question: how long from calling Van's will it take to receive the tail kit?
> Also, does the "crating charge" include shipping? If not, can anyone give
> me a ballpark estimate to ship to Minnesota.
>
> I want to start on the airplane in mid-June, and I'm trying to plan when to
> order things.
>
> Also -- I've been trying to send email to Doug Weiler -- the editor of the
> Mn Wing. Doug - can you send me email on joining the wing? Thanks.
>
> -Joe
>
> --
> Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
> Showpage Software, Inc.
> 435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
> St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wittman <73362.2004(at)compuserve.com> |
Joe: I ordered my tail kit around the 1st of April. I sent the deposit then
and I received an invoice for the remainder on the 18th with a note explaining
the shipping process. The short version is that I should receive the kit
sometime between the end of this week and the middle of May. How this actually
has worked out in the past I don't know. Van's notes that they have production
runs of 20 or more units and ship only after the run is completed. I'll let you
know when it arrives but if you want to start by June I suggest getting your
order in _now_.
BTW, I'm setting up shop just a few miles from your office. I'd be happy to
meet with you as we may be close enough to help each other in the building
process. I'm setting up shop on Tyrol Crest, near 394 & Hwy 100. My day
phone is 944-1640; home: 374-1310. See my posting on new member data other
specifics.
Good luck,
Jim
PS Doug Weiler is reachable at: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fried" <t42444(at)theo.dehavilland.ca> |
>Dennis Kane
>Does anyone have some thoughts on placement of the Cessna type heated
>pitot tube. I read Frank Justice's note regarding placement on the
>leading edge and was wondering if it might stick too far out. Is there a
>position dictated by the geometry of the wing ? ie: x % of the Chord line
>or simil.
If the pitot tube extends beyond the leading edge of the wing it will be
vulnerable to damage from people walking by.
The standard pitot tube is sensitive to the angle of attack, locating it at or
near the leading edge of the wing places it in a region of strong upwash. This
varies with airspeed and will result in large airspeed errors. By the time the
airflow reaches the mainspar at 30% chord, the streamlines are roughly parallel
to the chordline and do not vary much with angle of attack. I plan to mount my
pitot there as per drawings.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
I'm a new member to the rv-list.
Currently building a RV-4, #2866. Empennage and wings are finished. Fuse
is in the jig with two bottom skins clecoed and the two side skins being
clamped for drilling this evening (hopefully).
I have a O-320-E2D that is at Winchester Aero/Engines near Frederick, MD.
I dropped it off at last year's Frederick RV-Forum that is held just prior
to Sun-N-Fun. I was very sorry to see the Frederick Forum canceled.
Winchester Aero is upgrading the HP from 150 to 160 during the overhaul.
Some personal information: I am 56 years old (why did I wait so long to
start the RV-4) and had previously build the fuselage of a Skybolt. Prior
to starting the long, one piece upper wing, I started a small computer
telephony company and had to sell the project for $$ and physical space
needs. (Yes, I had computers and people in my garage for quite a while.)
Eventually, things settled down with the company enough for me to
contemplate getting back to building. In the meantime, however, I found
that I liked the RV birds and decided to become a tin bender. I've also
test flown an RV-6 for another pilot and still do acro and glider flying to
keep the skills up while building.
Helpful hint on adding lead weight for elevator balance. I store my wings
in Claudio Tonnini's hangar. Claudio is the RV-4 builder/pilot who flew to
the tip of South America on the way to Oshkosh a couple of years back. At
any rate, he suggested that I just "fill" both sides of the RV-4 elevator
tips with lead. Then, after painting, "drill out" the excess lead from the
exposed face (i.e., the face closest to the horiz stab.) It makes a lot of
sense and in looking at Claudio's elevator, I was surprised to see how
relatively unnoticeable the holes are.
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Pitot Tube |
Text item:
I agree that this is a good location, but it's difficult to keep the
tube from interfereing with tie down ropes if it's locatied outside of
the tie down ring. A heated tube probably won't fit inboard of the
tie down ring in the standard Van's recommended location.
After looking at some Pipers, I put my heated tube at the second rib
in from the tip. I have good access to it with my removable tips.
It's 6 inches below the wing near the spar flange.
Earl RV-6 N66VR (almost under construction again!!!)
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube
Date: 4/24/95 8:17 AM
The directions that came with the tube I bought said the opening should be at
least 6" below the wing to keep it in undisturbed air.
After looking at a bunch of factory airplanes and hearing from a lot of other
people who put heated tubes on their RV, I think the best place is
right on the
spar flange in the main part of the wing where you can access it through the
bellcrank access hole. This is a very rigid location with easy access for
replacement and should have relatively undisturbed airflow.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Pitot Tube
From: Frank K Justice <ccm.ssd.intel.com!Frank_K_Justice(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 08:17:00 PDT
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
>Does anyone have some thoughts on placement of the Cessna type heated
>pitot tube. I read Frank Justice's note regarding placement on the
>leading edge and was wondering if it might stick too far out. Is there
>position dictated by the geometry of the wing ? ie: x % of the Chord line
>or simil.
The most common location seems to be at or close to where Van's
specifies for the non-heated type, i.e. at or just aft of the spar, and
pointing perpindicular to it. Placement will depend somewhat on how
you attach the mast to the wing. I put mine in the corner made by the
main rib outboard of the access hole and the spar. I've noticed that on
Cessnas the tubes are both further forward and closer to the wing
(shorter mast). Van's arrangement looks to me to be better as far as
undisturbed air is concerned, but the best thing about it is that the
connections are accessible through the access hole.
People who have finished their planes have told me that errors due to
placement are more pronounced at low speeds. Several builders I know
have used the Piper "blade style" pitot tubes which only protrude about
2-3" below the wing, and their accuracy seems to be good throughout
most of the speed range, until you get down to short final and flare
(below 70 mph or so).
On a related note -- several builders (me included) are installing the
tie-down at the next spreader angle outboard from the one specified,
to avoid interference with the pitot-tube when tying down.
Randall
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Navaid Devices Autopilot |
Has anyone installed the Navaid Devices autopilit in their RV?
The wing kit arrives tomorrow, and I'm REAL interested in hearing
from anyone with experience installing one. I hate to re-invent
the wheel.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Was access screws now Alodyne |
Now you have me worried. I had to see this
after I did my first pro-sealing.
My alodyne looks blotchy but I didn't
really see any signs of residue. The
blotchyness seemed to come from variation
in time and amount of alodyne that gets
exposed to the metal in a hand process of
wiping it on. Little parts that I dipped
came out more even.
I did rub all areas to be prosealed down
with 99.9 % pure MEK before pro-sealing so
I hope it will be okay.
I did notice when a used the alumiprep that
there was what appeared to be some whitish
residue on the in side of the tank skin. So
I did a second quick spray with alumi-prep
and then rinsed and it was gone.
Does the residue come from too long or to
short a time exposed to alodyne? I tried to
leave it on for 3 to 5 minutes max and
never let it dry before rinsing.
>>> Randall Henderson
04/21/95 03:08pm >>>
A couple of hints about alodyning your
tanks, and alodyne in general:
I wanted to alodyne my tank parts for max
corrosion protection, but I had some
concern about it as I've experienced
varying amounts of alodyne residue on other
parts I've done. Not anything to worry
about normally but I was afraid it might
interfere with a perfect bond of the
pro-seal. I talked to Tom Green about this
and he told me something that I hadn't
heard before, which is that the proper
dwell time for alodyne will change with the
hardness of the material (makes sense),
which will change with the AGE of the
material (hadn't thought of that). Sure
enough, when Rion and I alodyned our tank
parts prior to prosealing, my parts all
developed more residue in the same amount
of dwell time than Rion's. Mine were about
a year newer than his, and apparenly his
had age hardened that much more, so the
alodyne didn't react as quickly as it did
with mine.
I wiped most of it off during the rinse and
I'm sure it will be fine, but the moral is,
if you want to avoid excessive residue, be
aware of the potential discrepancies in
dwell time based on the age of the
material. A light gold color of the metal
without much or any residue is what you're
shooting for.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Timings and such -Reply |
jpl%showpg(at)matronics.com
I believe Van's usually keeps tail kits in
stock. It only took about 2 or 3 weeks to
get from Oregon to Florida via UPS. If I
remember correctly crating and shipping are
separate. But it would be best to call
Van's and ask.
You definitely want to do that for the
timing of the other kits because demand and
availability varies much more for them.
Some lead times have been in the order of 3
to 9 months. I believe they have worked
that down to something more reasonable
since Bill arrived.
Sorry can't help on shipping to MN.
>>> Joe Larson
04/23/95
02:13pm >>>
Question: how long from calling Van's will
it take to receive the tail kit?
Also, does the "crating charge" include
shipping? If not, can anyone give me a
ballpark estimate to ship to Minnesota.
I want to start on the airplane in
mid-June, and I'm trying to plan when to
order things.
Also -- I've been trying to send email to
Doug Weiler -- the editor of the
Mn Wing. Doug - can you send me email on
joining the wing? Thanks.
-Joe
-- Joe Larson
jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426
Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Was access screws now Alodyne |
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
> Now you have me worried. I had to see this
> after I did my first pro-sealing.
>
> My alodyne looks blotchy but I didn't
> really see any signs of residue. The
> blotchyness seemed to come from variation
> in time and amount of alodyne that gets
> exposed to the metal in a hand process of
> wiping it on. Little parts that I dipped
> came out more even.
Yeah it seems that the alodyne reacts quickly with thatever it first
touches, and loses reactivity as it is brushed or wiped over the
surface. Dipping seems to work best for consistency purposes.
>
> I did rub all areas to be prosealed down
> with 99.9 % pure MEK before pro-sealing so
> I hope it will be okay.
MEK doesn't seem to cut through the alodyne residue once it's dried
on. Which is probably good news -- if the stuff is on there that well
then it's probably on there to stay.
>
> I did notice when a used the alumiprep that
> there was what appeared to be some whitish
> residue on the in side of the tank skin. So
> I did a second quick spray with alumi-prep
> and then rinsed and it was gone.
That may be the dried solution -- it seems to take a lot of rinsing to
get all the alumiprep off.
>
> Does the residue come from too long or to
> short a time exposed to alodyne? I tried to
> leave it on for 3 to 5 minutes max and
> never let it dry before rinsing.
The longer the dwell time, the more residue. The residue is oxidized
aluminum. Older (harder) alum doesn't seem to react as much or as
quickly, although if there is any corrosion present that hasn't been
cleaned off by the alumiprep, you may end up with more residue as the
alodyne converts it. I've found that 1 min dwell time is all that's
needed with newer parts.
Bear in mind I'm no expert on this, all I know about it is what I've
gleaned from reading labels, talking with others, and using the stuff
on all my parts since I started.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws -Reply -Reply |
<9504212108.AA21680(at)edt.edt.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> I wiped most of it off during the rinse and I'm sure it will be fine, but
> the moral is, if you want to avoid excessive residue, be aware of the
> potential discrepancies in dwell time based on the age of the
^^^^^
Pardon my new guy ignorance, but what is 'dwell time'? I have read
every archived message in this list on corrosion proofing, priming,
and painting and do not recall this one.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | One more horiz. stab. in the world |
I just finished my horizontal stabilizer for my RV6A this weekend! I had the
learned assistance of my fellow RV builder friend Gary Sobek. He was my
professional bucker and I handled the rivet gun. It took us several hours to
rivet the skins on but we didn't have to drill out a single rivet. I chose to
dimple countersink my rivet holes (except a few that were inaccessible to my
squeezer) mainly for strength. Gary showed me a technique that made things go a
little faster than the Orndorff video shows. We put clecoes in every other hole
in the top skin, put rivets in the remaining holes then placed clear packing
tape on over the rivets. After pinning down the structure by riveting the
middle and then the end rivets we just went assembly line fashion down the line
with the gun. I think this was faster than fishing for rivets one at a time,
(having some fall out when the bucker accidentally pushes one out from the
back) and the tape provides some protection from rivet set rash. I was planning
on using my new Avery swiveling, rubber lined flush rivet set but switched to a
plain flush rivet set after noticing that some rivets during practice didn't
sit flush in the hole. I think that the rubber guard ring around the Avery set
was keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet head. I will have to
try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps. Any one else have
mediocre results with this set?
I am now charged with RV building excitement, and now that I have some better
experience, my building speed should gain momentum!
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
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UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Schulte" <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.COM> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Pitot Tube |
I mounted my pitot tube about 8 inches back from the leading edge of
the wing. The forward location should keep it in clean air and also
keep it away from the tie down. It is located next to the first full
size leading edge rib, actually the doubler inside attaches to this
rib. The net installation resulted in a very stiff and secure
mounting. Access is only available by removing the fuel tank section
of the wing. But then again I don't plan on getting in there very
often and you can change pitot tubes from the outside with no real
need to be on the inside of the wing.
I installed the tube parallel to the cord line. I don't know how in
accurate if at all it will be since I don't know anyone that has used
me exact placement.
Chris.Schulte
RV-6 #21390
San Jose CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Was access screws then Alodyne now tailwheel |
>
> Now I see Randall signs off with RV-6. Does this mean he has decided to
> go around with his tail a draggin'????
>
Uh-oh, here we go again.... :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Was access screws now Alodyne |
Text item:
Now I see Randall signs off with RV-6. Does this mean he has decided to
go around with his tail a draggin'????
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Was access screws now Alodyne
Date: 4/24/95 2:47 PM
Now you have me worried. I had to see this
after I did my first pro-sealing.
My alodyne looks blotchy but I didn't
really see any signs of residue. The
blotchyness seemed to come from variation
in time and amount of alodyne that gets
exposed to the metal in a hand process of
wiping it on. Little parts that I dipped
came out more even.
I did rub all areas to be prosealed down
with 99.9 % pure MEK before pro-sealing so
I hope it will be okay.
I did notice when a used the alumiprep that
there was what appeared to be some whitish
residue on the in side of the tank skin. So
I did a second quick spray with alumi-prep
and then rinsed and it was gone.
Does the residue come from too long or to
short a time exposed to alodyne? I tried to
leave it on for 3 to 5 minutes max and
never let it dry before rinsing.
>>> Randall Henderson
04/21/95 03:08pm >>>
A couple of hints about alodyning your
tanks, and alodyne in general:
I wanted to alodyne my tank parts for max
corrosion protection, but I had some
concern about it as I've experienced
varying amounts of alodyne residue on other
parts I've done. Not anything to worry
about normally but I was afraid it might
interfere with a perfect bond of the
pro-seal. I talked to Tom Green about this
and he told me something that I hadn't
heard before, which is that the proper
dwell time for alodyne will change with the
hardness of the material (makes sense),
which will change with the AGE of the
material (hadn't thought of that). Sure
enough, when Rion and I alodyned our tank
parts prior to prosealing, my parts all
developed more residue in the same amount
of dwell time than Rion's. Mine were about
a year newer than his, and apparenly his
had age hardened that much more, so the
alodyne didn't react as quickly as it did
with mine.
I wiped most of it off during the rinse and
I'm sure it will be fine, but the moral is,
if you want to avoid excessive residue, be
aware of the potential discrepancies in
dwell time based on the age of the
material. A light gold color of the metal
without much or any residue is what you're
shooting for.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Was access screws now Alodyne
From: JIM SCHMIDT <mail.mei.com!JIM.SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 08:56:18 -0600
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
Greetings:
I saw the address in the RVAITOR and thought I would get on line to see if
there were anyone there, and what it was all about. I'm down here in Austin,
Texas, yes with Mr. RV Tony "B", and a bunch of RV drivers. I am
considerably behind schedule on my RV-6, but am planning my second retirement
1 SEPT. 25 years in USAF as a Fighter Pilot, and 13 with the Texas Parks and
Wildlife Dept. But enough of that. I have completed the tail and am about
3/4 done with one wing. I will probably be asking for more advice than I can
give, but will be glad to share what little I know. I am not far along
enough to ask more of the complicated questions, but wading through the plans
gives me enough to question!! I asked a couple of quick things from Vans on
line and haved received very prompt answers. Soooo, will close for now and
"test these waters" to see who/what is out there.
Good building/flying
Howard Kidwell
Rt 6 Box 43J
Austin, Texas 78737
512-288-0518
AOL logon is Howard RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Plate Screws -Reply -Reply |
Dwell time refers to the length of time to leave the solution on
the part before rinsing it off.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> > I wiped most of it off during the rinse and I'm sure it will be fine, but
> > the moral is, if you want to avoid excessive residue, be aware of the
> > potential discrepancies in dwell time based on the age of the
> ^^^^^
>
> Pardon my new guy ignorance, but what is 'dwell time'? I have read
> every archived message in this list on corrosion proofing, priming,
> and painting and do not recall this one.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Unsubscribe.....For now. |
Please unsubscribe until I can find time to resume building my RV-6A.
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dennis P. Kane" <aeldra(at)netcom.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One more horiz. stab. in the world |
Brian,
I thought the same about the swivel rivet head (that the rubber bumper is
too long ), please let me (us) know how it goes if you shorten it.
Anyone else have similiar experience ?
BTW thanks to all who helped me out re : heated pitot tube. Will write
back re my decision.
Dennis Kane
STRAYlight Aviation Ephemera
On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Brian Cooper wrote:
> I just finished my horizontal stabilizer for my RV6A this weekend! I had the
> learned assistance of my fellow RV builder friend Gary Sobek. He was my
> professional bucker and I handled the rivet gun. It took us several hours to
> rivet the skins on but we didn't have to drill out a single rivet. I chose to
> dimple countersink my rivet holes (except a few that were inaccessible to my
> squeezer) mainly for strength. Gary showed me a technique that made things go
a
> little faster than the Orndorff video shows. We put clecoes in every other hole
> in the top skin, put rivets in the remaining holes then placed clear packing
> tape on over the rivets. After pinning down the structure by riveting the
> middle and then the end rivets we just went assembly line fashion down the line
> with the gun. I think this was faster than fishing for rivets one at a time,
> (having some fall out when the bucker accidentally pushes one out from the
> back) and the tape provides some protection from rivet set rash. I was planning
> on using my new Avery swiveling, rubber lined flush rivet set but switched to
a
> plain flush rivet set after noticing that some rivets during practice didn't
> sit flush in the hole. I think that the rubber guard ring around the Avery set
> was keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet head. I will have to
> try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps. Any one else have
> mediocre results with this set?
>
> I am now charged with RV building excitement, and now that I have some better
> experience, my building speed should gain momentum!
>
> --
> Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
> cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
>
> Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
> X X
> ZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWV
> FWAVBMYQCLXJRGNTFWABMYQCQLXJRGTFWHABMYQCLXJVRGTFHABMYUQCLXVRGTFHOABYUQCLXWVRGTFH
> GRTUFHNBDTZFQATQGRUFHNBDTRZFQTQGRUYFHNBTRZFQETQGUYFHNBQTRZQEHTQGUYFNBXQTZQXEHTQG
> UQPDMMSKSJDOONCSUQDMSMSKSJDONCVSUDMRSMKSZJDNCNVSDMSRSKSSZJNCFNVSDMSSKLSSJNSCFNVS
> JBAHAWXSALESVWDBJBHALWXSALESWDSBJHAQLWSAPLEWDKSBHAIQLSAMPLWDKSBHDAILSAMPLJWDKSBH
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> UHOMSMYSZWBYWWYVUHOSMYSZTWBYWWVUHEOSMYSZWBYEWWVUEOOSMYSZWBEWWVUEZOOMYASZBEFWWVUE
> UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list |
>--------------
>Hi All
>I'am New to the list and am just posting some personal information FYI.
> My name is Robin Hall, I am a chemical lab supervisor at the University
>Of Western Ontario where I have Been employed for 20 years. I have been
>flying for 8 years and hold a Canadian Commercial Ticket. Although not
>currently building an rv I'am thinking abought an RV-6A. I have assisted
>in construction of a kitfox 1V and as well a scratch (plans built)
>skybolt for some friends here, learned a lot!. Age forty married with three
>sons ages 23,21,16. Well just saying hello and look forward to hearing from
>other rv-er's your problems and solutions. Bye for now.
> Robin.Hall(at)uwo.ca
>--------------
Wow, with 3 sons 23, 21, and 16 you should be able to build an RV in about
6 months!
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Timings and such -Reply |
Speaking of lead times, The freight company called today, my
win kit is to be delivered tomorrow. Here's the chronology:
1/30/95 : ordered
3/13/95 : Van's originally-scheduled production date
4/3/95 : Phlogiston delivered spar to Van's
4/18/95 : shipment
4/25/95 : receipt
I'm going to make sure I order the Fuselage kit REAL EARLY.
Someone posted a question about what the shipping charges would be for
the Empennage Kit. Call up Vans, ask them what the shipping weight of
the empennage kit is. Then call up UPS and ask what the charge would
be to ship XXX pounds from zip code 97133 to your zip code via
UPS ground.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
(Back in Building Mode at last)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
I am going to be in the MN/SP area next Tues and Wednesday, I was wondering
if there were any use group get togethers in the area next week?
don mack
rv-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Timings and such |
Joe Larson:
When I ordered my tail kit (4 years ago), Van had them in stock. It took about
2 weeks from time I sent them a check to delivery.
Van ships to MN via Roadway Express and transit time is about a week. His
crating charge does not include shipping. I belive the shipping charge was
around $90 (Van gets a real good deal from Roadway).
Joe: I'll send you an application for the MN Wing. Our next meeting will be
Sat, May 13 at 10am at Lake Elmo Airport. Featured will be John Stevenson's
beautiful RV-6 which is just about complete. I'll send you directions and
details.
Any questions, E-mail or call me at 715-386-1239.
Thanks,
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One more horiz. stab. in the world |
> I was planning on using my new Avery swiveling, rubber lined flush rivet set
>but switched to a plain flush rivet set after noticing that some rivets during
>practice didn't sit flush in the hole. I think that the rubber guard ring
>around the Avery set was keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet
>head. I will have to try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps.
>Any one else have mediocre results with this set?
No, you don't want to do that. I thought mine needed it and almost
ruined it. You just need to practice with it more and understand that
the rubber is there for a reason and if you push it firmly enough
against the surface, it works very well. Some folks have had problems
with it, but it is technique related. Of course, it won't work well on
skins less than .025 due to the pressure.
Congrats on a completed assembly!
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: One more horiz. stab. in the world |
>I was planning
>on using my new Avery swiveling, rubber lined flush rivet set but switched to
a
>plain flush rivet set after noticing that some rivets during practice didn't
>sit flush in the hole. I think that the rubber guard ring around the Avery set
>was keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet head. I will have to
>try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps. Any one else have
>mediocre results with this set?
Lots of people including me, but most like it better. I have been telling people
to borrow a swivel set and try it before buying. You really have to bear down
hard on the gun to get good results in any riveting situation, whether flush or
round head.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: One more horiz. stab. in the world |
DON'T cut the rubber guard! It works better if you just use a little more
pressure so the face of the rivet set makes contact with the work before you
start. The rubber helps keep the head from sliding or walking if your gun
isn't exactly 90 degrees to the skin.
bobn(at)ims.com
>I think that the rubber guard ring around the Avery set
>was keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet head. I will have to
>try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps. Any one else have
>mediocre results with this set?
>
>Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
>cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Sleigh @ Sikorsky Aircraft" <SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
Hearing all these stories about finished tail sections leads me to
believe I can do it too!
I recently bought an empenage kit from a local builder who lost
interest. He is an A&P and did great work, just too little of
it! I have the spars built up, with the hinges installed. The
parts are all primed and ready to go. I have the horz stab cleco'd
together, waiting to get installed into the (not yet built) tail
jig. That's the next thing to do, build the jig!
After reading all the posts explaining the benefits of dimpling rather
than countersinking, I have some questions. What is the best method
of dimpling? Do I really need to buy a hand squeezer with the dies,
or can I use the dimple set and bucking bar for the rivet gun?
I am comfortable using the gun and was planning on using it to
dimple. Is this advisable? Can I use this method on the elevator
and rudder skins?
Thanks for your help and suggestions.
James Sleigh
RV-4 Tail Project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: One more horiz. stab. in the world |
Brian:
I also used a swivel rivet set with the rubber guard and most definitely had to
shave off some of the rubber until it was almost (but not quite), flush with
the set itself. I consistently use some type of tape to not only hold in the
rivets as you did, but prevent marring and minimize the chance of the rivet
set jumping off the "target"
BC> from rivet set rash. I was planning on using my new Avery swiveling,
BC> rubber lined flush rivet set but switched to a plain flush rivet set
BC> after noticing that some rivets during practice didn't sit flush in the
BC> hole. I think that the rubber guard ring around the Avery set was
BC> keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet head. I will
BC> have to try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps. Any
BC> one else have mediocre results with this set?
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Alodining fuel tanks |
RH> A couple of hints about alodyning your tanks, and alodyne in general:
RH> I wanted to alodyne my tank parts for max corrosion protection, but I
RH> had some concern about it as I've experienced varying amounts of
RH> Randall Henderson
RH> RV-6
Randall:
Saw your note regarding alodining of your fuel tanks. I am just finishing up
the leading edge skins of my RV-4 and will soon begin the dreaded fuel tank
construction. I have never heard of anyone in this local area alodining their
tank components and was wondering if this is truly necessary. I'm not clear
how there may be a corrision problem on the inside of a fuel tank. (I have
heard that ethanol is a more potentially corrisive fuel and there are some RVs
flying in the Upper Midwest using ethanol... namely the Vanguards RV-3 demo
team in Sioux Falls, SD.
Can others give any insight on alodining tanks?
I have definitely decided against sloshing and plan on pro-sealing very
carefully.
Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
rad> From: r a dowdle <ZRAD(at)ADM.ANGELO.EDU>
rad> To: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
rad> how do i subscribe to the RVator's Log?
At the risk of making a commercial statement (not really.. we are about as
non-profit as you can get)...
If any Rv-Listers would like to get on the mailing list for the MN Wing
newsletter (RVator's Log), leave me your E-Mail address and mailing address and
I'll send you an application. I publish it quarterly for our local builder's
group and cost is $5.00 per year.
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Don:
Saw that you are coming to MSP next week. Unfortunately our next meeting is
scheduled for May 13. Also I'm afraid I'll be on a trip during that period,
but I would invite you to give me a call and we can look over our membership
list in this area and give you some builders that you could visit while you
are here.
I will be home until this Sunday, so call anytime, although evenings might be
best (715-386-1239)
DM> (Don Mack)
DM> I am going to be in the MN/SP area next Tues and Wednesday, I was
DM> wondering if there were any use group get togethers in the area next
DM> week?
DM> don mack
DM> rv-6A
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list |
Matt Says:
> Wow, with 3 sons 23, 21, and 16 you should be able to build an RV in
> about 6 months!
Interesting thought. What IS the record time for assembling an RV?
(It's probably the factory guys, but it would be fun to know.)
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
> Do I really need to buy a hand squeezer with the dies,
> or can I use the dimple set and bucking bar for the rivet gun?
You don't have to, but you will get far-better-looking results using an "Avery"
tool (the big "U" shaped thing that holds dimple dies or rivet sets you beat
with a hammer) and a squeezer for those places where you can't use the Avery
tool. It is too difficult to get a consistent dimple with a rivet gun and you
are much more likely to ding the skin. I know squeezers are expensive, but this
is a very expensive undertaking and all your friends will be looking at it. The
alternative is to fly with fifty extra pounds of Bondo.
> I am comfortable using the gun and was planning on using it to
> dimple. Is this advisable? Can I use this method on the elevator
> and rudder skins?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | ...to dwell or not to dwell.. |
Not that Randall intends to be redundant, but "Dwell" means "to remain for a
time", so the new term "dwell time" must mean "to remain for a time time"?
>Dwell time refers to the length of time to leave the solution on
>the part before rinsing it off.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GEORGE(at)CHE.MsState.Edu |
by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP);
Tue, 25 Apr 95 13:33:53 GMT+6
| Subject: | Van's user group |
Is there a Van's user group that I can suscribe to?
Cliff; RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ai105(at)detroit.freenet.org (Jack Haviland) |
| Subject: | New Subscriber Background Info. |
Here is the infomation I neglected to provide as part of the
subscription request process.
Jack Haviland
7505 Parkwood Ct.
Fenton, MI
810-685-5459 w
810-629-1870 h
MailArchive=yes
Building a 6 or 6A - still working on the empennage & have not
made up my mind yet.
I'm very happy to find this group (via a reference to it in the
rec.aviation.homebuilt usenet group) and appreciate Matt Dralle's
work to make the archives available.
Last summer the Michigan wing of Van's Air Force held a fly-in
at Dalton Airport about 10 miles NW of the primary Flint MI field.
About 70 people, three RVs, and a helicopter attended in spite of
adverse weather. The same event is currently scheduled for
June 25th this year. If anybody is interested in more info.
let me know and I'll e-mail or post it.
Looking forward to successfully downloading the archives and
getting advice from other subscribers!
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Alodining fuel tanks |
I haven't heard of anyone having problems with corrosion in their
tanks. The prevailing opinion seems to be that fuel will displace water
moisture and so corrosion isn't really an issue in tanks. However, I
expect to be exposing my plane to some pretty corrosion-prone
environments, plus I figured my tanks might sit on the shelf for a
while before they ever see fuel, plus I'm just plain anal about
corrosion protection, so I figured why not.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> RH> A couple of hints about alodyning your tanks, and alodyne in general:
>
> RH> I wanted to alodyne my tank parts for max corrosion protection, but I
> RH> had some concern about it as I've experienced varying amounts of
>
> RH> Randall Henderson
> RH> RV-6
>
> Randall:
>
> Saw your note regarding alodining of your fuel tanks. I am just finishing up
> the leading edge skins of my RV-4 and will soon begin the dreaded fuel tank
> construction. I have never heard of anyone in this local area alodining their
> tank components and was wondering if this is truly necessary. I'm not clear
> how there may be a corrision problem on the inside of a fuel tank. (I have
> heard that ethanol is a more potentially corrisive fuel and there are some RVs
> flying in the Upper Midwest using ethanol... namely the Vanguards RV-3 demo
> team in Sioux Falls, SD.
>
> Can others give any insight on alodining tanks?
>
> I have definitely decided against sloshing and plan on pro-sealing very
> carefully.
>
> Any and all suggestions are welcome.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI
>
> ... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James A. Cone" <73644.136(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Jim Cone Profile |
My name is Jim Cone, 422 Savannah Ridge Drive, St. Charles, MO 63303-2921, Phone
(314) 928-8703, FAX (314) 447-8803. Age 53, Captain
for TWA, Retired Lt. Col. USAF (Pilot). Editor of Van's Air Force, Tri-State
Wing newsletter distributed to RV builders in MO, IA, IL and other
places. Newsletter oriented more to tips and builder suggestions than local
news, published quarterly. Subscription by $7.50 donation (includes all back
issues for the year). Also write an aviation newspaper column for St. Louis
Aviation Journal. Building an RV-6A. Wings, Tail, Fuselage complete. Working
on Finishing kit. Full IFR panel. Completed and flew a Sea Hawker, sold after
flood damage. Interested in tips to pass on in my newsletter. Want to share
other's sucesses and failures, problems, etc. Will share mine.
I'm new to E-Mail. What is FAQ? What is anonymous FTP? How do I download the
RV-Archive.digest? Is it "Mail Archive=Yes"?. How can I get the good stuff on
E-Mail without having to pay $$$ to Compuserve to get a lot of hello's, etc.?
If I have PKZIP, can I un-compress your files? How big is Frank Justice's
supplemental building instruction file? Is it compressed? Where can I get a
good five cent cup of coffee? I have about a thousand other questions about
comunicating on the net, but these will do for now. Thanks for all the help.
Jim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Alodining fuel tanks (fwd) |
Water can settle in the bottom of the tanks and could cause corrosion.
I have seen carb fuel bowls with corrosion and also aluminum fuel
sump/strainers. It is not a big problem but it does happen.
One solution to this would be to alodine after the ribs are riveted in
but before the back is put on if you don't want alodine under the proseal.
> I'm not clear
> how there may be a corrision problem on the inside of a fuel tank. (I have
> heard that ethanol is a more potentially corrisive fuel and there are some RVs
> flying in the Upper Midwest using ethanol... namely the Vanguards RV-3 demo
> team in Sioux Falls, SD.
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Swivel Rivet Set |
> I think that the rubber guard ring around the Avery set
> was keeping the rivet set from sitting flush on the rivet head. I will have
to
> try grinding down the rubber a bit to see if this helps. Any one else have
> mediocre results with this set?
I havn't tried any flush set except the Avery swivel set, but what
works best for me is make sure the rivet gun is held _firmly_ against the
skin, while holding the bucking bar very lightly and letting it bounce
quite a bit. I have done almost all the riveting on my RV-6 by myself,
and I do get a lot of unacceptable rivets (perhaps 5-10%) but most of
these are probably due to trying to handle both rivet gun and the bucking
bar at the same time. Anyway, I think the key is to make sure the bucker
doesn't apply too much pressure and force the rivet out of the hole.
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Steffens" <res6246(at)des.dukepower.com> |
Conversion-With-Loss: Prohibited
Has anyone used, or know of someone who has used, a fuselage jig consisting of
a
single, center beam similar to the one described as an alternative in Van's
manual? I will be finishing the wings for my -6 soon and am considering options
for constructing the fuselage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CAT3TOOLS(at)aol.com |
HELLO,
I'M MIKE FROM CLEAVELAND AIRCRAFT TOOL, WE SPECIALIZE IN RV RELATED TOOLS AND
INTERIORS. BILL BENEDICT TOLD ME ABOUT A LIST THAT I COULD GET ON AND ALL
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ABOUT RV'S WOULD GET FORWARDED TO ME... ARE YOU THE RV
LIST THAT I AM SEEKING? IF SO PLEASE SIGN ME UP. MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS
"CAT3TOOLS(at)AOL.COM"
THANK YOU
MIKE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Swivel Rivet Set |
VERY good advice on riveting/bucking technique Curt.
don wentz, N790DW, RV-6
> while holding the bucking bar very lightly and letting it bounce quite
>a bit.
>Anyway, I think the key is to make sure the bucker doesn't apply too
>much pressure and force the rivet out of the hole.
>Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | New wing kit news |
My RV-6 wing kit arraived yesterday (Christmas in April!).
I ordered the pre-punched wing skins, and much to my
surprise, not only is the hole cut in the bottom
skin for the access hole, but Van's has 'joggled' a lip in the
skin around the hole. This appears to mean that it will
no longer be necessary to fabricate the reinforcing ring.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Hi I'am new to rv-list |
Text item:
I don't think the factory is as fast as the guy in California. I think
Alan Tolle put together and RV in about 4 months or so. He has built
several of his own and helped on many more. Has great support from his
family, especially his wife, and many friends.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list
Date: 4/25/95 6:26 PM
Matt Says:
> Wow, with 3 sons 23, 21, and 16 you should be able to build an RV in
> about 6 months!
Interesting thought. What IS the record time for assembling an RV?
(It's probably the factory guys, but it would be fun to know.)
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list
From: Richard Chandler <Claris.COM!mauser(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:06:05 -0800
-0700
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
davehyde(at)tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Alodining fuel tanks -Reply |
I received a message from Ed Wisch (SP?)who
rebuilt his tanks on an RV4. He researched
with people who know what they are doing
and felt that Alodyne is a proper surface
prep for Pro-Seal.
The reason I want to Alodyne is that I
scuffed up all the internal surface of my
tank with Scothcbrite pads and Alumiprep in
case I have to do the dreaded slosh. This
most likely exposed the aluminum alloy.
But if I don't slosh, I want the tank to be
corrosion protected. Florida salty air.
Tanks do sit as Randall says for long
periods of time both before completion and
after. If your tanks are not full the top
is exposed to air for weeks on end.
These decisions are optional as one fellow
said "Take your age and subtract the years
left to fly or own the plane and do you
need any corrosion protection"
Also corrosion anal (That hurts.)
Jim
>>> Doug Weiler
04/23/95 05:22pm >>>
Randall:
Saw your note regarding alodining of your
fuel tanks. I am just finishing up the
leading edge skins of my RV-4 and will soon
begin the dreaded fuel tank construction.
I have never heard of anyone in this local
area alodining their tank components and
was wondering if this is truly necessary.
I'm not clear how there may be a corrision
problem on the inside of a fuel tank. (I
have heard that ethanol is a more
potentially corrisive fuel and there are
some RVs flying in the Upper Midwest using
ethanol... namely the Vanguards RV-3 demo
team in Sioux Falls, SD.
Can others give any insight on alodining
tanks?
I have definitely decided against sloshing
and plan on pro-sealing very carefully.
Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing,
InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BUTLER(at)els93.ateng.az.honeywell.com |
WRT alodining the fuel tanks....
Doug Weiler writes:
"I have never heard of anyone in this local area alodining their
tank components and was wondering if this is truly necessary.
I'm not clear how there may be a corrision problem on the inside
of a fuel tank."
I don't understand the process either but be sure IT CAN HAPPEN! I
had to replace one of the fuel tank inspection panels in my Cheetah
last year or so due to exactly this problem. Apparently water had
gotten in some how and sat long enough in a vulnerable spot. Only
the paint on the bottom of the panel kept fuel from seeping through.
When I do my tanks I'll take whatever measures are necessary to
prevent corrosion.
Oh, and a little about me... I'm new to the list.
I currently fly a Grumman Cheetah and am seriously considering a -6
or -6A. I'm still in the "decide-if-I-can-really-commit-to-doing-a-
project-of-this-magnitude" stage. Fortunately I have two friends
that have the tail kit, so I'll help buck some rivets and see how
their's goes together before making the final decision.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: New wing kit news |
> My RV-6 wing kit arraived yesterday (Christmas in April!).
> I ordered the pre-punched wing skins, and much to my
> surprise, not only is the hole cut in the bottom
> skin for the access hole, but Van's has 'joggled' a lip in the
> skin around the hole. This appears to mean that it will
> no longer be necessary to fabricate the reinforcing ring.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave Barnhart
> RV-6 sn 23744
Man, you new builders have it SOOOO easy.... :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
rcinet.utc.com!SIKJES(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
Text item:
Buy the squeezer. It is well worth the initial investment as Frank says
and it just makes so much of the work so much easier. When I built my
-4 (#182) I bought one of the cheapie squeezers(don't), although it was
a big help. I didn't have an Avery "C" frame when I built. I am now
re-building the RV3 prototype and have a borrowed Avery frame and deeper
throat squeezer. What great tools. It would be worth the investment in
my opinion. In the long run you save (time/frustration/$). You can
always sell them when you are done if you feel you don't need them
anymore. Most builders I know don't want to sell their stuff when they
are done, but are willing to loan it.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers
Date: 4/25/95 6:59 PM
> Do I really need to buy a hand squeezer with the dies,
> or can I use the dimple set and bucking bar for the rivet gun?
You don't have to, but you will get far-better-looking results using
an "Avery"
tool (the big "U" shaped thing that holds dimple dies or rivet sets you beat
with a hammer) and a squeezer for those places where you can't use the Avery
tool. It is too difficult to get a consistent dimple with a rivet gun and you
are much more likely to ding the skin. I know squeezers are expensive,
but this
is a very expensive undertaking and all your friends will be looking
at it. The
alternative is to fly with fifty extra pounds of Bondo.
> I am comfortable using the gun and was planning on using it to
> dimple. Is this advisable? Can I use this method on the elevator
> and rudder skins?
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers
From: Frank K Justice <ccm.ssd.intel.com!Frank_K_Justice(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 15:39:00 PDT
)
________________________________________________________________________________
(InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for );
| From: | "John Yewko" <John.Yewko(at)jci.com> |
SIGNOFF RV LIST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Sleigh @ Sikorsky Aircraft" <SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: R U "THE LIST" |
Hello Mike from Cleaveland (sic) Aircraft Tool. Welcome aboard.
One suggestion, however. QUIT SHOUTING! WE CAN ALL HEAR YOU!
You *are* going to give us all special discounts because we're on
"the list", right?
Again, welcome.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
JS@S> rather than countersinking, I have some questions. What is the best
JS@S> method of dimpling? Do I really need to buy a hand squeezer with the
JS@S> dies, or can I use the dimple set and bucking bar for the rivet gun?
JS@S> I am comfortable using the gun and was planning on using it to
JS@S> dimple. Is this advisable? Can I use this method on the elevator
JS@S> and rudder skins?
JS@S> Thanks for your help and suggestions.
JS@S> James Sleigh
JS@S> RV-4 Tail Project
JS@S> @Via ifmail 1:2245/1@fidonet, Tue Apr 25 1995 at 18:46 (2.8a-pl2)
Jim:
Personally I have used three methods to dimple my RV thus far:
1. A good get of dimple dies (Avery or Cleaveland) in a hand squeezer
good for around the edges of material).
2. Avery (or Cleaveland's) dimpling arbor. This is nearly a must have
as it makes access to the center of large skins very easy.
3. Avery's vice grip tool with a 3/32" die set welded to it. I have
ground off the female side so it is accessable in tight areas and works
just fine for odd places.
I'm sure the rivet gun/bucking block method will work fine with experience, but
I have found that sooner or later, the most correct and best tools for the job
is money well spent.
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
(InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for );
| From: | "John Yewko" <John.Yewko(at)jci.com> |
| Subject: | unsubscribe from rv-list |
UNSUBSCRIBE JOHN YEWKO
PLEASE TAKE ME OFF RV-LIST
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list |
RC> Interesting thought. What IS the record time for assembling an RV?
RC> (It's probably the factory guys, but it would be fun to know.)
In the Oct issue of Van's newsletter, it mentions that Jerry Scott of Chino, CA
built an RV-6 in 127 days!!! I just couldn't believe this until I was talking
with Jerry VanGrunsven last Feb and Jerry knew all about it.
Jerry VanG visited Jerry S during a layover in LA and saw the airplane and said
it was a jewel. Totally finished with all the goodies and a C/S prop. He said
Jerry Scott is the most organized builder he has ever run across. He does not
waste one minute of the day. I assume this was a full-time project but even
then, it is far beyond my comprehension.
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, InterNet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Swivel Rivet Set |
<950426081823_5(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> VERY good advice on riveting/bucking technique Curt.
> don wentz, N790DW, RV-6
>
> > while holding the bucking bar very lightly and letting it bounce quite
> >a bit.
>
> >Anyway, I think the key is to make sure the bucker doesn't apply too
> >much pressure and force the rivet out of the hole.
I was under the impression the rivet shank expands to fill the hole
with the first couple of hits, locking it in places. So bucking bar
pressure should be very light at first but can be increased after this.
When I get my rivet gun next month I'll try it. :-)
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
This discussion has prompted me to throw my $.02 in.
A very wise old craftsman once said to me:
"Half the job is having the right tool."
ANd I think he was being conservative. I look at
it this way. By using the RIGHT tool, a GOOD HIGH-
QUALITY tool, it makes for my lake of skill. With the
right tool, my riveting comes out as good as the best
of them. I learned this at my father's knee. He always
bought the cheapest tools. As a result, he would not only
spend the entire job cussing, the end results were not
pretty. SO I learned then to reach down into my pocket and
pay the extra money for high-quality tools. Ammortize
the difference in cost over the life of the tool, and
you'll find it's the best money you can spend.
A cheap or wrong tool makes the job hard, and you dread
working on it. The right, high-quality tool makes the
job easy and pleasurable ( 'cept maybe Pro-sealing).
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New wing kit news |
> Man, you new builders have it SOOOO easy.... :-)
Yes, it looks like I won't have to smelt ANY aluminum (G,D,&R)
Seriously, I don't see how those first RV-3 builders did it,
just working from plans.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Alodining fuel tanks (fwd) |
> Water can settle in the bottom of the tanks and could cause corrosion.
> I have seen carb fuel bowls with corrosion and also aluminum fuel
> sump/strainers. It is not a big problem but it does happen.
>
> One solution to this would be to alodine after the ribs are riveted in
> but before the back is put on if you don't want alodine under the proseal.
>
I neglected to alodyne my left tank before sealing it up, I only did
the right one. I plan to just "slosh" the finished tank with alodyne,
then rinse of course.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
>
> Do I really need to buy a hand squeezer with the dies,
> or can I use the dimple set and bucking bar for the rivet gun?
>
You really do need a hand squeezer. Also an Avery rivet/dimple arbor.
You can't have too many riveting/dimpling tools, there's always some
place were a different tool is needed or at least would save you
time/effort.
I'd recommend getting a shallow (1 or 1.5") yoke as your primary yoke
for the squeezer, it gets into tight places better and doesn't flex as
much as the deeper throat ones.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | New wing kit news (fwd) |
Yes, this was noted in a RVator issue late last yr as I recall.
> I ordered the pre-punched wing skins, and much to my
> surprise, not only is the hole cut in the bottom
> skin for the access hole, but Van's has 'joggled' a lip in the
> skin around the hole. This appears to mean that it will
> no longer be necessary to fabricate the reinforcing ring.
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: New wing kit news |
> From crl.com!barnhart(at)matronics.com Wed Apr 26 18:02:54 1995
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 14:44:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
> > Man, you new builders have it SOOOO easy.... :-)
>
> Yes, it looks like I won't have to smelt ANY aluminum (G,D,&R)
>
> Seriously, I don't see how those first RV-3 builders did it,
> just working from plans.
>
Even current RV-3 builders still have to drill their own spars,
not to mention that the rest of the kit is still pretty primitive
compared to the improvements in the -4 and -6. My hat's off to
those folks!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Safety is no accident. |
Hey, just a reminder to you guys.
Let's be careful out there.
I may not be working on a plane just yet, for lack of a construction site
(Hell, I can afford a mortgage payment, but I don't have a down payment) but
I certainly build things of various sorts in my apartment.
I now have a fragment of a Dremel cut off wheel embedded in the ceiling of my
kitchen which I am going to leave there until move-out day as a reminder to
be careful. Naturally, I know about what those things do and I was wearing
my safety glasses at the time, but still....
There are a lot of sharp edges out there, and unexpected burrs that you might
sweep your hands across. You might consider having a few gauze pads and
adhesive tape as a part of your toolkit, just in case.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list |
<4192773090(at)f101.n2245.z1.ftn>
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Doug writes,
RC> Interesting thought. What IS the record time for assembling an RV?
RC> (It's probably the factory guys, but it would be fun to know.)
In the Oct issue of Van's newsletter, it mentions that Jerry Scott of Chino, CA
built an RV-6 in 127 days!!! I just couldn't believe this until I was talking
with Jerry VanGrunsven last Feb and Jerry knew all about it...I assume this was
a
full-time project but even then, it is far beyond my comprehension.
To really put this in perspective(and mess with everyones head), the rest
of the paragraph in reference to Jerry Scott's RV-6 reads "127 days. Start to finish.
WHICH IS A LITTLE LESS THAN TWICE AS LONG AS IT TOOK ALAN TOLLE TO BUILD AN RV-3!"
It took Alan about 70 days, and we've all seen pictures of Alan's multiple RV's,
they
are also totally finished, painted, etc. Pretty amazing!
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
As someone noted, Allan Tole probably holds the record.
I saw him at the SW regional fly in a few years back and
I think it was his RV 6A that was built in record time.
I don't recall but it was something like 2 or 3 months.
This was his 3rd or 4th RV also so he had all the tools
and know how.
He said he would have his wife and kids do tasks during the
day and he would get home at 4PM and work into the night
and have things ready for his wife and kids to do the next
day. They did things like deburring, dimpling, etc.
He also get all the parts together before hand, such as
instruments, etc. so he is not waiting on anything.
I also met a older retired man at the White Knuckle RV flyin
a few yrs back and I think he built his RV in about 4 months.
He worked on it every day (very long days and nights) and
he said it about killed him but he did it.
This was also his first.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Remi <rkhu(at)netcom.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New wing kit news |
>
> > Man, you new builders have it SOOOO easy.... :-)
>
> Yes, it looks like I won't have to smelt ANY aluminum (G,D,&R)
>
> Seriously, I don't see how those first RV-3 builders did it,
> just working from plans.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave Barnhart
> RV-6 sn23744
>
>
That's true! How in the world do they that? John Martinez continually
reminds me of the 'horrible' things he had to do while building his RV-4.
The guy did it in 15 months BTW!!!
If it wasn't for those who had tread the path for us, where would we be? :-)
Remi - RV-4 #3751
"The left wing, in pieces, awaiting for me to throw together - who has time?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight instructor: "I said pull the nose up... not your nose up!!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GGCC44A(at)prodigy.com (MR MALCOLM L HARPER) |
| Subject: | Unsubscribe please |
Please remove me from the RV list. I was hoping it would be
used more for technical help from builder to builder. There
is just too much superfluous chatter instead. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
Don't forget the little dimpling die that you use
with a pop-rivet squeezer. I've found it
invaluable for dimpling down close to the trailing
edge of the elevator and rudder ribs.
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn-23744
Starting on the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "OAKQM3 MASTER" <OAKQM3_MASTER(at)oakqm3.sps.mot.com> |
Mail*Link(r) SMTP Welcome Jim
JAC> I am new to this form of comunications. I am the editor of Van's Air
JAC> Force, Tri-State Wing newsletter, which is more oriented toward
JAC> builders tips and suggestions than local news. I would like to get
JAC> tips and ideas to put into the newsletter. I am not sure how to do
JAC> this. Is there a forum for RV'ers and how do I get on it? The item in
JAC> the RV-ator was not very helpful to me. Any help that you can offer
JAC> will be very appreciated. You can reach me at compuserve address:
JAC> 73644.136(at)compuserve.com. Thanks. Jim Cone.
Jim Cone:
Welcome to the RV-List. I'm glad to see another newsletter editor has
discovered us. I've have only been a part of this group for a few weeks, but
I
find it one of the most valuable sources of RV info I've run across yet. I'm
sure everyone on the "List" will support my enthusiasm. I've learned more
great
little tips and tidbits in the last several weeks than in the last 4 years of
RV
building. I'm sure you are aware of the Archives that Matt Dralle has
available
which probably contain enough tips to help us through a whole squadron of RV
building and many, many years worth of newsletters.
I'm just about to start working on the June issue of the RVator's Log and I
intend to include a big article about the RV-List. By the way, the Tri-State
Wing's newsletter is just great. Keep up the good work. You have been able
to
focus well on building tips more more than I have!
Again, thanks to everyone on the RV-List for this informative means of
communication. Makes me look forward to cranking up the computer each day.
P.S. Thanks to Dave Riehl for relating the story of his accident. A very
sobering account.
... from: Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Internet: doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 95 11:45:30 MST
From: Doug Weiler <swamp.mn.org!Doug.Weiler(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Welcome Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "OAKQM3 MASTER" <OAKQM3_MASTER(at)oakqm3.sps.mot.com> |
Mail*Link(r) SMTP RV-6 Wings
Recieved RV-6 wing kit on last wed. Kit came with predrilled
skins. Has anyone experienced problems with PP skins? If so,
what areas should I anticipate as problems?
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 95 10:15:32 MST
From: delphi.com!JERRYWALKER(at)matronics.com
Subject: RV-6 Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe please |
>
> Please remove me from the RV list. I was hoping it would be
> used more for technical help from builder to builder. There
> is just too much superfluous chatter instead. Thanks.
>
Which list are you on? Looking over the last couple of days' messages
I see discussion about:
- Alodyne and fuel tanks
- Choice of hand squeezers and various riveting/dimpling tools
- New kit improvements
- Swivel rivet set technique
- Navaid devices autopilot installation
Have you asked a lot of technical questions that haven't been
answered? I've found this list to be quite helpful technically, but
you do have to ask. I know there is a lot of chatter, but it's pretty
easy to scan through the non-relevant messages and delete them.
And now that you mention it, many of the superfluous messages are
requests to UNSUBSCRIBE. Please read the FAQ everyone (you did get it
when you subscribed, no?) which tells you the proper address to use
for administrative requests, including "unsubscribe" messages. Send
such requests to
rv-list-request(at)matronics.com
^^^^^^^
so they don't go to the whole list!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Hi I'am new to rv-list |
I talked to Ken at Vans the other day, and he mentioned a builder
in Chino (must be Jerry!) who took delivery of his first kit April 1, 1995,
and intends to fly it to Oshkosh this year!! Three weks after the first
kit, he was bugging Vans for a finish kit!! .... this sort of makes my pace
look rather snail-like since I started in Oct 89.
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... slowly working on seats and floors.
At least most progress has been forward!
>Doug writes,
>
> RC> Interesting thought. What IS the record time for assembling an RV?
> RC> (It's probably the factory guys, but it would be fun to know.)
>
>In the Oct issue of Van's newsletter, it mentions that Jerry Scott of Chino, CA
>built an RV-6 in 127 days!!! I just couldn't believe this until I was talking
>with Jerry VanGrunsven last Feb and Jerry knew all about it...I assume this
>was a
>full-time project but even then, it is far beyond my comprehension.
>
> To really put this in perspective(and mess with everyones head), the
>rest
>of the paragraph in reference to Jerry Scott's RV-6 reads "127 days. Start to
>finish.
>WHICH IS A LITTLE LESS THAN TWICE AS LONG AS IT TOOK ALAN TOLLE TO BUILD AN
>RV-3!"
>It took Alan about 70 days, and we've all seen pictures of Alan's multiple
>RV's, they
>are also totally finished, painted, etc. Pretty amazing!
>
>Rgds
>Mike Fredette
>RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Safety is no accident. |
On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Richard Chandler wrote:
> I now have a fragment of a Dremel cut off wheel embedded in the ceiling of my
> kitchen which I am going to leave there until move-out day as a reminder to
> be careful. Naturally, I know about what those things do and I was wearing
> my safety glasses at the time, but still....
There are two kinds of Dremel cut off wheels I have seen. One type has a
fiberglass reinforcing mesh embedded in it, and stays together pretty
well. The other (older?) type has no reinforcement and tends to
disintigrate with no warning, sending fragments flying everywhere. I no
longer use this type and don't recommend them under any circumstances.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Safety is no accident. |
>On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Richard Chandler wrote:
>
>> I now have a fragment of a Dremel cut off wheel embedded in the ceiling of
>>my
>> kitchen which I am going to leave there until move-out day as a reminder to
>> be careful. Naturally, I know about what those things do and I was wearing
>> my safety glasses at the time, but still....
>
>There are two kinds of Dremel cut off wheels I have seen. One type has a
>fiberglass reinforcing mesh embedded in it, and stays together pretty
>well. The other (older?) type has no reinforcement and tends to
>disintigrate with no warning, sending fragments flying everywhere. I no
>longer use this type and don't recommend them under any circumstances.
>
>Curt Reimer
I fully agree with Curt .... however there is a better cut-off
wheel made by the "House of Balsa" and is available at all good Model/Hobby
stores. It comes in a 2 inch diameter, which is easier to use since it is
now larger than the body of the Dremel. I have found them ideal for
slotting, cutting flanges, and cutting square holes in aluminum. They seem
to be unbreakable (it is of the fiberglass reinforcing mesh type) .... but
still wear your safety glasses!!
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kvap(at)solar.sky.net (Kevin E. Vap) |
I'm doing some CG planning, etc. Does anyone have a good estimate of the
weight difference between an O-320 & an O-360 (a general difference, not
specific models)? Also, how about the approximate moment location of the
engine weight?
Thanks
Kevin
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kvap(at)solar.sky.net (Kevin E. Vap) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Jig |
>On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Dick Steffens wrote:
>
>--------< SNIP >-------( the important messages snipped )--------------------
>
>Will the computer 'Pros' please raise your hands!
>
>Remi - RV-4 #3751
>"Anyone seen my chuck key?"
Okay...I'm a computer pro. Now if you guys can just teach me how to build
an RV-6, I'll have everything important figured out. *grin*
Kevin Vap
"reviewing RV-6 preview plans -- tail kit to be ordered soon"
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Schulte" <chris(at)smtplink.ashtech.COM> |
RV-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[4]: Pitot Tube |
>Chris,
>
>Did you use the Piper blade type, or the Cessna "L" shaped pitot tube?
>
>Dennis Kane
>STRAYlight Aviation Ephemera
I used the AN5812-12 Pitot Tube which is a TSO-C16 12 Volt "L" shaped tube.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown |
If at first you don't succeed. . .
---------------------
From: Mailer-Daemon(at)matronics.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Date: 95-04-27 19:22:15 EDT
----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 rv-list-matronics(at)matronics.com... User unknown
----- Unsent message follows -----
From: RGWELCH(at)aol.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:01:59 -0400
Subject: RV-3
I haven't seen much information on RV-3's. Are the RV-3's kind of out
of favor with the homebuilders? Is it because of it being single place, plus
no phlogiston spar kit, fast build wing kit, etc.?
Van's promotional material states that the RV-3 is the best value for
the money. Is that not the case any longer?
Also, need a 211CC vacuum pump for a nearly flying project.
Regards,
Dick Welch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Remi <rkhu(at)netcom.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe please |
MR. MALCOLM: Anyone ever tell you that you have classical traits of
anal retention? How about taking yourself far too serious?
> Please remove me from the RV list. I was hoping it would be
> used more for technical help from builder to builder. There
> is just too much superfluous chatter instead. Thanks.
Good luck sir!
Remi -- "He who knows not he knows not is not"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: New wing kit news |
> > Man, you new builders have it SOOOO easy.... :-)
Randell
Look how easy you have it now.... think how it was when I built my -6
starting in 1987 :-{) In 1989 had over 100 hrs on my RV-6 before I got the
finish kit instructions and drawings.
Jerry Springer N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hill(at)esa.lanl.gov (Dallas Hill) |
| Subject: | New Subscriber Background Info. |
Dallas Hill
1022 Cedro Ct
Los Alamos, NM 87544
505-667-4240 w
505-662-9205 h
I'm interested in building an RV6A in the future and wanted to
know all the important issues involved in this task. After looking
at several other kit planes, the RV just seems to be done right.
I fly RC airplanes and soon plan to take full scale flying lessons.
I love to build things. Especially things that fly. What a wonderful
resource this RV-list is!.
Dallas Hill
future RV builder
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
>Mail*Link(r) SMTP RV-6 Wings
>Recieved RV-6 wing kit on last wed. Kit came with predrilled
>skins. Has anyone experienced problems with PP skins? If so,
>what areas should I anticipate as problems?
Just snarls and irritation from your friends who got their kits earlier and had
to drill their own holes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Fuselage Jig |
>Okay...I'm a computer pro. Now if you guys can just teach me how to build
>an RV-6, I'll have everything important figured out. *grin*
The secret to building an RV is in making the right assumptions. When a computer
pro is loading a new program or OS in his PC, he just assumes that it is going
to try to use the same memory location for two entirely different things. When
building a Van's kit, make two assumptions. One is that if the item in the plans
makes sense and it looks like you can just put the pieces together, assume that
the parts for it are not the right size and that you should probably build it
differently. Number two is that if what is in the plans looks totally hosed up,
it is probably correct. Any more questions?
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sanchez(at)took.enet.dec.com |
There are definitely RV3s being built. It is true that the
pre-built spar is not available. In fact, the spar pieces are not
pre-drilled at all. When I finished my RV3 spar/bulkhead assembly I
really felt like I had accomplished something. While the RV3 kits are
not quite as refined as the 4s and 6s, there are fewer parts. I am
expecting some really impressive performance from mine as I am planning
on a 160hp engine with a constant speed prop. Should be lots of fun!
Cheryl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Paul Garrision <peg(at)phoenix.net> |
Please unsubscribe me
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: New wing kit news |
Gee, I wonder what they will be like when _I_ get there. :-)
On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
> > My RV-6 wing kit arraived yesterday (Christmas in April!).
> > I ordered the pre-punched wing skins, and much to my
> > surprise, not only is the hole cut in the bottom
> > skin for the access hole, but Van's has 'joggled' a lip in the
> > skin around the hole. This appears to mean that it will
> > no longer be necessary to fabricate the reinforcing ring.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Dave Barnhart
> > RV-6 sn 23744
>
> Man, you new builders have it SOOOO easy.... :-)
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
_________________________________________________
| Alan Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| Wannabe RV-6 Builder - Preview Plans Received! |
| Study......study......study......study...... |
|_________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimple Dies and Hand Rivet Squeezers |
On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, David A. Barnhart wrote:
>
> This discussion has prompted me to throw my $.02 in.
>
> A very wise old craftsman once said to me:
>
> "Half the job is having the right tool."
>
So, you know my father? :-)
He used to build a lot of furniture. I got the same lecture quite often.
- Alan
_________________________________________________
| Alan Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| Wannabe RV-6 Builder - Preview Plans Received! |
| Study......study......study......study...... |
|_________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Unsubscribe please |
Text item:
Just curious, has this person ever asked for technical advice? I have always
received answers (many helpful answers) to the dilemmas I sometimes find myself
in. Does anal retention have anything to do with waiting for answers where
questions were not asked?
Keep up the chatter gang,
jmw, -4
MR. MALCOLM: Anyone ever tell you that you have classical traits of
anal retention? How about taking yourself far too serious?
> Please remove me from the RV list. I was hoping it would be
> used more for technical help from builder to builder. There
> is just too much superfluous chatter instead. Thanks.
Good luck sir!
Remi -- "He who knows not he knows not is not"
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe please
From: Remi <netcom.netcom.com!rkhu(at)matronics.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 21:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
-4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Text item:
Engine CR HP RPM WT HT WTH LEN
O-320 A,E 7.00 140/ 2400/ 244 22.99 32.24 29.56
150 2800
O-320 B,D 8.50 160 2700 255 22.99 32.24 29.56
O-360 A 8.50 180 2700 265 24.59 33.37 29.56
Data from Sky Ranch Engineering Manual
MikeWilson
painting and riveting bulkheads, -4
I'm doing some CG planning, etc. Does anyone have a good estimate of the
weight difference between an O-320 & an O-360 (a general difference, not
specific models)? Also, how about the approximate moment location of the
engine weight?
Thanks
Kevin
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Engines
From: solar.sky.net!kvap(at)matronics.com (Kevin E. Vap)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 18:17:01 -0500
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ray Belbin <Ray.Belbin(at)jcu.edu.au> |
| Subject: | Unsubscriber, not worth it. |
On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, James Mike Wilson wrote:
> Text item:
> Just curious, has this person ever asked for technical advice? I have always
> received answers (many helpful answers) to the dilemmas I sometimes find myself
> in. Does anal retention have anything to do with waiting for answers where
> questions were not asked?
> Keep up the chatter gang,
> jmw, -4
I think Randall H's reply to the FW Unsubscriber was really the
best reply to put forward. I considered sending a fiery retort myself but
refrained - Mr M's NOT WORTH IT! I've been on this list since there were
only about a dozen subscibers and have found it to an absolute gem.
The best treatment for Mr MALCOLM is certainly to ignore him -
he's NOT worth it.
So let's leave it and get back to what this list is really about
- RV MAGIC !
Ray Belbin (Still doin' those dammed wings) RV6A (cos they look nicer!)
Townsville, Australia
PS By the way, in case anyone didn't know, the 'W' in FW stands for 'Witt'.
The 'F' stands for 'Free' OF COURSE! What were YOU thinking!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Jig |
On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Kevin E. Vap wrote:
> Okay...I'm a computer pro. Now if you guys can just teach me how to build
> an RV-6, I'll have everything important figured out. *grin*
Kevin:
It ain't hard to build an RV-6. Six months ago, I had never even
held a rivet gun in my hands. Now, five months and 235 hours of
building later, my tail kit is finished and I'm starting on the
wing kit. My recommendation is to do three things:
1. Get a copy of Frank Justice's RV-6 Construction Manual.
Ask him nicely and he'll send you a disk with the files
in MS-Word format. Frank's manual is very good. He includes
a lot of detail that isn't in Van's COnstruction Manual.
2. By the Orndorf Empennage COntruction Video. It's available
from Van's and from Avery. You get to see the entire
process of building the tail. The video was a real
confidence-builder for me. It will be the best $40
you spend.
3. Dive in and get started. The sooner you start, the sooner
you'll be finished.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 SN 23744
Working on the left wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
| Subject: | Van's Phone number |
Does someone have Van's number handy? I am on the road and need to
call him on Monday. Thanks
IMHO!! This is THE BEST DARN LIST IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!! The heck
with tht guy that wanted who knows what!!!!
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
| Subject: | Vans Phone Number Request, KILL |
Ok I now have VAN's number, so please don't reply to my message. Got
it from one of our list members.
Thanks
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RNorris574(at)aol.com |
I'am a RV-4 builder and new to the internet. I'am on AOL
address is RNorris574. Interested how this all works.
Roger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
| Subject: | Re: R U "THE LIST" |
>Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Date: 26 Apr 1995 14:40:24 -0500 (EST)
>From: "James Sleigh @ Sikorsky Aircraft" <rcinet.utc.com!SIKJES(at)matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: R U "THE LIST"
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>X-Envelope-To: rv-list(at)matronics.COM
>X-Vms-To: UTRCGW::IN%"rv-list(at)matronics.com"
>X-Vms-Cc: SIKJES
>
> Hello Mike from Cleaveland (sic) Aircraft Tool. Welcome aboard.
> One suggestion, however. QUIT SHOUTING! WE CAN ALL HEAR YOU!
>
> You *are* going to give us all special discounts because we're on
> "the list", right?
>
> Again, welcome.
>
DISCOUNTS!! . :) :) :) . . EXCELLENT!!
Our house was just finished (1325 sq ft w/ 3-car gara..RV-6 Construction
shop) and the tool hunt has officially begun!!
Discounts......cool ;)
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
SHOP: ++++++----
TAIL: ----------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Access holes and joggled lips |
Noticed that someone pointed out that Van's new wing kit has access holes
cut and lip of hole joggled (I assumed steped down so that no reinforcing
ring needs to be made).
We built a joggling (step) tool and did this for our wings. Here are the
lessons.
1. You still need to notch the rib.
2. The hole is not very stiff and our #2 hole I added a stiffening ring
behind joggle whihc made a big difference.
3. The fitting of the cover plate is tough to do since your surface metal
to cover plate transition is over a "rounded" joggled edge. Having made std
access hole covers now I find that the old way actually gives a smoother
transition.
I think we are happy with both, but I didn't feel the joggled system saved
any time or gave a better aerodynamic surface.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ReileyRV6(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | I'm not receiving any mail?? |
Maybe I have set something up wrong? I sent mail to Matronics and have not
received an answer. I don't think you are getting my mail and visa versa. I
saw something about bounced on a listing. I'm new to this if you get this can
you help? reileyrv6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Fwd: Subscriber Comments... |
Hello Everyone,
I have personally received the message below from one on the RV-LIST
subscribers, Charles Skorupa. In it, he refers to the recient "discussion"
of one of the members request for removal from the list due to "excessive
chatter". Charles makes some VERY valuable points regarding the use
of this list and I ask that you please read his message carefully and
try to use the RV-LIST with these points in mind.
Again, thanks Charles, for your comments.
Keep posting RV info!
The RV-LIST is now at 224 active members!
Matt Dralle
RV-LIST Admin.
--- Forwarded mail from Charles Skorupa <72575.34(at)compuserve.com>
>From 72575.34(at)compuserve.com Sat Apr 29 08:18:36 1995
From: Charles Skorupa <72575.34(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RV List
Hi Matt,
First, I would like to thank you for adding me to the RV builders list and for
administering this fine and valuable service. I enjoy the postings there very
much and have received some very valuable information. Hopefully, I will be able
to contribute some ideas myself that can help some builder and return the favor.
I also enjoy the friendly "chatter" to a certain extent.
However, I have also noticed that some people have been "Unsubscribing" to the
mailing list. They have cited various reasons for this, including the trend to
non-RV construction postings (aka Chatter). It seems that some have also taken
to Flaming ( I think that's the jargon used) people because of this opinion.
That's unfortunate for two reasons. First, it creates an unfriendly atmosphere.
Second, it adds another message that doesn't have anything to do with RV
construction. Perhaps there is more to the story than some people realize and
that is why I am writing this not to you (and not the builders list for fear of
being flamed myself).
I, too, am considering unsubscribing. That decicision is not easy because I
very much enjoy ALL of the postings there. The problem is one of economics.
The service I use to get the mail from the RV builders list charges me $.10 per
message. Because of the increased popularity of the list, more people are using
and posting to it all the time which is good. Unfortunately, this is adding to
the number of $.10 postage charges I receive. On average, there is say 10
messages per day. That's about $1.00/day or $30/mo in postage charges in
addition to the basic fee. There is an allowance on my service for a certain
number of messages, but it is quickly exceeded. These messages are sort of like
rivets. They seem pretty small and insignificant, but they add up to build an
airplane. Bottom line is that I would rather be spending this money on airplane
parts. The catch 22 is that one of these messages might save me much more that
my $30 example. Anyway, I also have to admit that I cringe whenever I read
unuseful messages because they cost me money. I am getting smarter and am
prescreening the messages by subject because I don't get charged unless I read
the message. Unfortunately, there is not much discipline regarding the
relationship between the title of some messages and the contents, so useful
information is sometimes buried behind an unrelated message subject. I also
note that you save all messages in a summary file which I could download or you
could automatically upload to me,say, once a month. This would probably be much
cheaper for my current situation. Finally, I am investigating other services to
subscribe to that would not have this per message charge.
Bottom line is that this is my problem and not yours or the other
subsubscribers. However, the creeping intolerance and nasy tone to a few of
the messages should be a concern to all of us. I am also not suggesting that
you screen the messages because you have better things to do with your time and
we users should be making things easier for your so you get discouraged and go
away. Perhaps if people just swore at their screens instead of writing back
when they saw something they didn't like, they could vent their emotions (and
save me and others a dime!!). Also, if the subscribe and unsubscribe notes were
sent to you only and not the rest of the mailing list, maybe that could help a
little.
When I went to Oskosh for the first time last year, I was very impressed with
the lack of litter because of the pride and self-policing qualities which is the
nature of these independent homebuilders. There were no fines, no lectures, no
inforcement action. Instead, people didn't throw things on the ground. And if
they saw a scrap of litter they quietly and without flourish or comment,
stooped over and picked it up. Perhaps we can find a way to extend this same
quality to our RV Builders Forum.
Thank you again,
- Chuck Skorupa-
- RV-6A empennage nearly done... saving for wing, a dime at time! -
--- End of forwarded message from Charles Skorupa <72575.34(at)compuserve.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Garrett <wgarrett(at)mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us> |
| Subject: | RV news and views |
To whomever can help-
I read in the February RVator about this interest group and would like to
find how to gain access to it. I am building an RV-6A (working on the
wings at this time) and am always looking for information and ideas that
will make the project go more smoothly or make a better airplane. Please
send me any info you can about how to get in touch in a way that I can
get information back to me. You can reach me at this e-mail address or
at
Bill Garrett
1571 Old Ridge Road
Pottstown, PA 19465
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Steve Wittman lost... |
91 year old aviation legend, Steve Wittman and his wife Paula were confirmed
as having perished in a Thursday morning aircraft accident over Stevenson,
Alabama. An in-flight break-up is suspected as the aircraft wreckage was
scattered over a wide area according to the Jackson County Sherriff. They
left their home in Ocala, FL, and were expected to arrive in Oshkosh at 1530
but did not arrive. Friends (led by Paul Poberezny) put together a massive
search effort but on Saturday, it was learned that portions of the aircraft
had been found and by Sunday Steve and Paula's remains were located and
removed from the accident site. No word has reached me as yet about funeral
services but I will relate them as soon as I have the data.
Let no one mistake the loss we flyers have suffered... Steve was an
incredible pilot... but more than that, a great man.
Our prayers and condolences go out to all those who knew and honored this man
as well as his family and friends...
Jim Campbell
US Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Non-technical comment |
>MR. MALCOLM: Anyone ever tell you that you have classical traits of
>anal retention? How about taking yourself far too serious?
>
>Good luck sir!
>
>Remi -- "He who knows not he knows not is not"
>
Was this _really_ necessary? Really?
DH
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Rear spar doubler rivet holes |
I have a question about riveting the rear spar
to the ribs in the area of the W407D spar doubler.
The plans show an LP4-3 pop rivet fastening the
middle of the rib rear flange to the middle of the
of the rear spar web. The 'shop head' of the LP4-3
is underneath the W407D rear spar doubler.
I said, "Hmmmm, there should probably be a clearance
hole in the W407D doubler for the rivet." So I looked
in Frank's construction manual, and sure enough:
"drill one (#30) hole ... through the doubler plate, the
rear spar web, and on through the rib flange."
Which caused me to say, "Hmmm, it seems like the clearance
hole in the doubler should be a little larger than #30,
due to the expansion of the pop rivet as it's being
squeezed."
The question is, am I right, or am I WAY out in left field
reading this wrong?
Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Access Holes |
Has anyone had any problems getting their access panels to lie flat once
they are screwed down? Mine ended up convex, in part I think due to the
dimpling of the screw holes. I was thinking of perhaps adding 2 screws
and nutplates to the center. Should I consider making a new plate, or do
they all end up convex anyway?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes |
One of mine was worse than the other. I ended up doing just what you
suggested. I added a couple of screws to the rib in the center of the
plate. Right or wrong, it helped a lot!
Bob Neuner
bobn(at)ims.com
>
>Has anyone had any problems getting their access panels to lie flat once
>they are screwed down? Mine ended up convex, in part I think due to the
>dimpling of the screw holes. I was thinking of perhaps adding 2 screws
>and nutplates to the center. Should I consider making a new plate, or do
>they all end up convex anyway?
>
>Curt Reimer
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rear spar doubler rivet holes |
In answer to the question about the size of the pop rivet clearance hole in the
rear spar doubler, the clearance hole does need to be larger than #30. I
apparently forgot to put in a step to go after drilling the #30 hole through
everything to "drill out the hole in the doubler only to 3/16"." I did verify
recently that a similar situation in attaching some ribs to the main spar is
adequately described although it is at a stage where you don't know why you are
doing it.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes |
> Has anyone had any problems getting their access panels to lie flat once
> they are screwed down? Mine ended up convex, in part I think due to the
...
Mine came out nice and flat, but I also deviated a little from the plans.
I found the 3/8" flange wasn't wide enough to use #8 screws without distorting
the edges of the panel so I switched to #6 hardware (after checking with Van's,
just to be sure...) rather than remaking the panels and reinforcing ring.
Doing it again, I would have just made the flange wider to start with -
hindsight is always 20/100 (I figure I will need to build at least three
or four of these things to get it down to 20/20...).
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Donald Bohman <dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us> |
| Subject: | fuel tank sloshing |
i have completed building the fuel tanks only to find i have a leak in
one of the tanks and would like to know what is the best sloshing
compound to use. i know there has been trouble with some sloshing
compounds and randolph 912 (i beleive) was mentioned to me as it has
resistance to achohol. does anyone know of a better sloshing compound?
use e-mail address dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
or
DON BOHMAN
10550 NW LEFT WING CRT
APEX AIRPARK
SILVERDALE, WA.98383
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: Steve Wittman lost... |
This is indeed a great loss to the world of Sport Aviation. Steve Whittman was
one of the great innovators in aviation. Remember, the RV undercarriage is based
on a Steve Whittman design.
I'm sure I speak for all Sport Aviation builders here in Australia - Steve
Whittman will be missed by all and our prayers and condolences go out to all
Steve & Paula's family and friends
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Steve Wittman lost...
Date: 01/5/95 3:29 AM
91 year old aviation legend, Steve Wittman and his wife Paula were confirmed
as having perished in a Thursday morning aircraft accident over Stevenson,
Alabama. An in-flight break-up is suspected as the aircraft wreckage was
scattered over a wide area according to the Jackson County Sherriff. They
left their home in Ocala, FL, and were expected to arrive in Oshkosh at 1530
but did not arrive. Friends (led by Paul Poberezny) put together a massive
search effort but on Saturday, it was learned that portions of the aircraft
had been found and by Sunday Steve and Paula's remains were located and
removed from the accident site. No word has reached me as yet about funeral
services but I will relate them as soon as I have the data.
Let no one mistake the loss we flyers have suffered... Steve was an
incredible pilot... but more than that, a great man.
Our prayers and condolences go out to all those who knew and honored this man
as well as his family and friends...
Jim Campbell
US Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmbrown(at)netcom.netcom.com (John Brown) |
:.....(
I am sorry to hear about this. I truely loved Steve's TAILWIND. It has
such beautiful lines!!!
My heart goes to all those who knew and worked with him...
I hope that we can have a moment of silence at OSH95, and on the net.
I hope he has wonderful VFR days in heaven.
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)netcom.com PP-ASEL
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dennis Kane <dennis(at)straylight.net> |
subscribe rv-list
dennis(at)straylight.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes -Reply |
Are we talking about wing or tank access
panels?
Jim
>>> Tom Goeddel x5278
05/01/95 01:26pm >>>
> Has anyone had any problems getting their
access panels to lie flat once > they are
screwed down? Mine ended up convex, in part
I think due to the ...
Mine came out nice and flat, but I also
deviated a little from the plans.
I found the 3/8" flange wasn't wide enough
to use #8 screws without distorting the
edges of the panel so I switched to #6
hardware (after checking with Van's, just
to be sure...) rather than remaking the
panels and reinforcing ring.
Doing it again, I would have just made the
flange wider to start with - hindsight is
always 20/100 (I figure I will need to
build at least three or four of these
things to get it down to 20/20...).
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Non-technical comment |
>>MR. MALCOLM: Anyone ever tell you that you have classical traits of
>>anal retention? How about taking yourself far too serious?
>>Good luck sir!
>>Remi -- "He who knows not he knows not is not" >
>Was this _really_ necessary? Really?
>DH
>nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
Actually, it definitely WAS NOT. In fact, Randall's initial response
trying to 'convince' someone that this list is worth their while was
not either.
What do we care whether or not someone finds this list useful? That's
like calling someone dumb because they like blue but you like red.
It's their personal opinion, and their choice. We don't need to feel
good, bad, or anything that they find this list not meeting their
needs. IT DOESN'T MATTER.
We have what I consider to be a great RV builder's group in this area.
But I know of MANY local builders who don't want any part of it. Do I
feel bad about that? Heck no. NOTHING is great for EVERYONE.
Besides, I imagine that for those of you that have to pay for each
message that you receive, there probably IS a lot of repetition and
crap that you could live without (like this message, which I apologize
for, I just HAD to say something). In fact, now that my RV is flying
and I have forgotten most of the details of building it, I find most
discussions on the list boring - I can't remember how I did those
things, and don't really care since I'm not currently building.
I stay on because there are occasional items that I enjoy or that
interest me. BUT, I don't have to pay for the luxury of reading this
mail. If I did, I would drop off the list too.
So give these guys a break, they can choose to not receive this and
that's what they have done.
BTW, if you feel compelled to respond to this, how about NOT sending it
to the whole list, give THEM a break.
There, off soapbox.
Don Wentz, RV-6, N790DW
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes -Reply |
Aileron Belcrank inspection panel.
>Are we talking about wing or tank access
>panels?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes -Reply |
> Are we talking about wing or tank access
> panels?
>
> Jim
...
>>> Has anyone had any problems getting their
>>> access panels to lie flat once they are
...
>> Mine came out nice and flat, but I also
>> deviated a little from the plans.
...
I was talking about the inspection panels on the bottom of the wings.
Tom Goeddel
RV-6A
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes -Reply |
On Tue, 2 May 1995, JIM SCHMIDT wrote:
> Are we talking about wing or tank access
> panels?
>
> Jim
The wing bellcrank access panels.
-Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Access Holes |
CR> Has anyone had any problems getting their access panels to lie flat
CR> once they are screwed down? Mine ended up convex, in part I think due
CR> to the dimpling of the screw holes. I was thinking of perhaps adding 2
CR> screws and nutplates to the center. Should I consider making a new
CR> plate, or do they all end up convex anyway?
CR> Curt Reimer
Curt:
Regarding your wing access cover, I did install one nutplate and screw in the
middle of the cover and mine fits perfect. Several of our local builders have
done the same and no problems have been noted.
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Subscriber Comments... |
MGD1> due to "excessive chatter". Charles makes some VERY valuable points
MGD1> regarding the use of this list and I ask that you please read his
MGD1> message carefully and try to use the RV-LIST with these points in mind.
MGD1> Again, thanks Charles, for your comments.
MGD1> Keep posting RV info!
MGD1> The RV-LIST is now at 224 active members!
MGD1>
MGD1> Matt Dralle
MGD1> RV-LIST Admin.
Matt & fellow Listers:
I would just like to comment briefly on Charles' note. He does make some very
good points and I truly hope that he or anyone else is not disappointed in the
postings on The List. Like any E-mail "group" I'm sure there will be some
messages that may not adhere to strictly technical questions and statements,
but personally, I have not found any communications disturbing in this manner.
The vast knowledge of all the builders on the List and the interaction amoung
them certainly makes up for an occasional " transgression".
My suggestion to Charles or anyone else is to research Internet E-mail access
through a local BBS (Bulletin Board Service) that is tied to the FIDONET (which
in turn can access the Internet).
The local BBS that I use here in Western Wisconsin charges only $30/year for
unlimited Internet messages and I know there are many hundreds, if not
thousands, of such BBSs in the country. I would be glad to help any other
member in tracking down such a BBS as there are nationwide listings available.
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
Most of us are use to using the internet on a 'free' basis so we tend to
chatter a lot. For those that have to pay for each piece of mail, this
can be a pain in the er.. wallet. Also, if you don't want to see all the
chatter, it would be nice to see a 'readers digest' version of the answers.
Here is a proposal to consider (take shots at):
1) add a second mail list for those that have to pay for messages.
They would not be added to the normal rv-list(at)matronics.com mail list.
2) They would still send requests to the normal rv-list(at)matronics.com.
so everyone can see the question.
3) Someone would be the moderator and would put together a summary message
of the various response that get broadcast on rv-list(at)matronics.com
say after several days.
This summary would then be sent out on the new 'payor' mail list.
All the misc. off the wall comments and chatter would be filtered out.
The problem with this is that someone would have to be that moderator
and spend some time boiling down the responses and sending out the summary.
This is sort of like what someone does to build the FAQ list but it would
be done more frequently and the sent out on the other mail list.
An alternative proposal would be to set up the second mail list for those
that have to pay or don't want all the chatter and have some automated way
to filter the responses. We may have to put something in the Subject of the
message so we could filter out the chatter and just fwd real technical info.
This requires each sender to add the right key word in the message so it could
be filtered.
Can the email zar's comment on the possibility of doing this?
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kingm(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Subscriber Comments... |
Charles makes some very valid points and I agree completely. One other
issue not mentioned is the amount of system 'resources' used to send
unnecessary messages to a large mailing list. Some of the universities
that originally developed Internet have had to set up their own private
network because the enormous volume of activity on the Net slowed down
their communications to an unacceptable level. While this might not seem to
effect you now, the available capacity to send e-mail along with all the
other features Internet has to offer is not unlimited. If the volume of
messages, etc ever began to exceed system capacity and something had to be
done, one obvious control would be to limit allowable message input. It
just makes good sense not to waste current resources with unnecessary
messages that don't add value to the RV-List. This is a great forum, lets
use it responsibly.
>Hello Everyone,
>
>I have personally received the message below from one on the RV-LIST
>subscribers, Charles Skorupa. In it, he refers to the recient "discussion"
>of one of the members request for removal from the list due to "excessive
>chatter". Charles makes some VERY valuable points regarding the use
>of this list and I ask that you please read his message carefully and
>try to use the RV-LIST with these points in mind.
>
>Again, thanks Charles, for your comments.
>
>Keep posting RV info!
>
>The RV-LIST is now at 224 active members!
>
>Matt Dralle
>RV-LIST Admin.
>
>
>--- Forwarded mail from Charles Skorupa <72575.34(at)compuserve.com>
>
>>From 72575.34(at)compuserve.com Sat Apr 29 08:18:36 1995
>From: Charles Skorupa <72575.34(at)compuserve.com>
>To: "Matt Dralle : RV BBS"
>Subject: RV List
>
>Hi Matt,
>First, I would like to thank you for adding me to the RV builders list and for
>administering this fine and valuable service. I enjoy the postings there very
>much and have received some very valuable information. Hopefully, I will be
able
>to contribute some ideas myself that can help some builder and return the
favor.
>I also enjoy the friendly "chatter" to a certain extent.
>However, I have also noticed that some people have been "Unsubscribing" to the
>mailing list. They have cited various reasons for this, including the trend to
>non-RV construction postings (aka Chatter). It seems that some have also taken
>to Flaming ( I think that's the jargon used) people because of this opinion.
>That's unfortunate for two reasons. First, it creates an unfriendly
atmosphere.
>Second, it adds another message that doesn't have anything to do with RV
>construction. Perhaps there is more to the story than some people realize and
>that is why I am writing this not to you (and not the builders list for
fear of
>being flamed myself).
>
>I, too, am considering unsubscribing. That decicision is not easy because I
>very much enjoy ALL of the postings there. The problem is one of economics.
>The service I use to get the mail from the RV builders list charges me $.10 per
>message. Because of the increased popularity of the list, more people are
using
>and posting to it all the time which is good. Unfortunately, this is
adding to
>the number of $.10 postage charges I receive. On average, there is say 10
>messages per day. That's about $1.00/day or $30/mo in postage charges in
>addition to the basic fee. There is an allowance on my service for a certain
>number of messages, but it is quickly exceeded. These messages are sort of
like
>rivets. They seem pretty small and insignificant, but they add up to build an
>airplane. Bottom line is that I would rather be spending this money on
airplane
>parts. The catch 22 is that one of these messages might save me much more that
>my $30 example. Anyway, I also have to admit that I cringe whenever I read
>unuseful messages because they cost me money. I am getting smarter and am
>prescreening the messages by subject because I don't get charged unless I
read
>the message. Unfortunately, there is not much discipline regarding the
>relationship between the title of some messages and the contents, so useful
>information is sometimes buried behind an unrelated message subject. I also
>note that you save all messages in a summary file which I could download or you
>could automatically upload to me,say, once a month. This would probably be much
>cheaper for my current situation. Finally, I am investigating other
services to
>subscribe to that would not have this per message charge.
>
>Bottom line is that this is my problem and not yours or the other
>subsubscribers. However, the creeping intolerance and nasy tone to a few of
>the messages should be a concern to all of us. I am also not suggesting that
>you screen the messages because you have better things to do with your time and
>we users should be making things easier for your so you get discouraged and go
>away. Perhaps if people just swore at their screens instead of writing back
>when they saw something they didn't like, they could vent their emotions (and
>save me and others a dime!!). Also, if the subscribe and unsubscribe notes were
>sent to you only and not the rest of the mailing list, maybe that could help
a
>little.
>
>When I went to Oskosh for the first time last year, I was very impressed with
>the lack of litter because of the pride and self-policing qualities which
is the
>nature of these independent homebuilders. There were no fines, no lectures, no
>inforcement action. Instead, people didn't throw things on the ground. And if
>they saw a scrap of litter they quietly and without flourish or comment,
>stooped over and picked it up. Perhaps we can find a way to extend this same
>quality to our RV Builders Forum.
>
>Thank you again,
> - Chuck Skorupa-
> - RV-6A empennage nearly done... saving for wing, a dime at time! -
>
>
>
>--- End of forwarded message from Charles Skorupa <72575.34(at)compuserve.com>
>
>
>--
>
>
Monte King
Oak Harbor, Wa
RV-6A
working on fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PTidball(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Unsubscribe...me too |
Please unsubscribe me from the list.
PT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark60195(at)aol.com |
Please remove me from the list.
- Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tjanke(at)dial.cic.net (Tom) |
| Subject: | Hello from a new subscriber. |
Hello my name is Tom Janke and I live near Detroit MI. I am new to
this list. Thank you Matt D. for the administration of this list. I believe
it will help my airplane to be built better and fly safer.
I am not a "current-builder" or a "wanna-builder". I am a
"gonna-build 'er". Start date planned for late fall this year.
My first question - Are there any builders in the Detroit / Southern
Michigan/ Northern Ohio area on this list?
Again, thank you and best regards to RV builders and flyers,
Tom Janke
tjanke(at)dial.cic.net
RV-6 "gonna-build 'er"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | boatright thomas reginald <trboatri(at)ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> |
Hello all :) I have been lurking in the background for a while.
I have found this a very informational forum. I have noticed that
what may seem important to some at times may seem trivial to others.
theres a wealth of abilities and knowhow out there. Be patient with
those of us who seek your advice. So much for my plea. Now to my
question. I am building an RV-4 , empenage done wings 75%, I would
like to put an aerobatic, fuel injected, 180hp, lycoming in my
aircraft. What type would be the easiest installation with the
fewest modifcations ie AEIO360what???????.
Thankyou for your patience.
Thomas R. Boatright
trboatri(at)ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Urbana Il.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: NOT Re: Unsubscribe please |
You know, I really like phillips head screws. What about
the rest of you?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Bottom wing skin overlap rivet lines |
I am drilling my bottom skins on my RV-4 wings. I have one-piece top skins, but
the two-piece bottom skins, which have the overlap. On the plans and manual,
the two rows of rivets where the wing skins overlap stop at the rear spar.
Would it interfere with the operation of the flaps to rivet the skins together
behind the rear spar?
Thanx, Rion
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Wed, 3 May 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
>
> You know, I really like phillips head screws. What about
> the rest of you?
compared to what? :-)
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Wing skin overlap riveting |
I have one-piece top wing skins and two-piece bottom wing skins for my RV-4.
There is a double row of rivets for riveting the bottom skins together and to a
main wing rib where the skins overlap. In the manual, the line of rivets stops
at the rear spar, although there is room for at least two more rivets in each
line behind the rear spar before you get to the flap-to-wing-attaching piano
hinge. It would seem that riveting the skins together behind the rear spar
would be a good idea (strength, and to prevent unsightly bulge), but would the
shop heads interfere with flap operation?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NOT Re: Unsubscribe please |
<9505031617.AA00683(at)amelia.edt.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> You know, I really like phillips head screws. What about
> the rest of you?
Oh no, you won't get rid of us anal-retentives that easy! :-)
chatter, chatter,
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "James Sleigh @ Sikorsky Aircraft" <SIKJES(at)rcinet.utc.com> |
| Subject: | Re:proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
Other mailing lists have addressed this very topic. Other lists use
a "Digest" method of sending out the messages. Using this scheme,
all of the posts to "the list" are held until the end of the day
(or some other time of day), then sent out in ONE big message.
The biggest drawback with this system is it tends to slow the dialog
down quite a bit. For those of us who sit at the desk all day, just
ready to respond to a new question or comment, we'd have to wait.
It slows the overal process of communication.
On the other hand, I really like having an excuse to stop what I'm
doing and read my mail everytime a new rv-list message arrives :-)
(not so sure my boss is crazy about the idea....)
Just an idea.
James @ Sikorsky
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: NOT Re: Unsubscribe please |
>
> You know, I really like phillips head screws. What about
> the rest of you?
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
This sort of comment really torx me. This thred has to stop. What...
are you you some sort of nut. If you keep this up I'll bolt also.
Chris
P.S. I,m not tapped out yet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing skin overlap riveting |
Rion said:
> I have one-piece top wing skins and two-piece bottom wing skins for my RV-4.
> There is a double row of rivets for riveting the bottom skins together and to
a
> main wing rib where the skins overlap. In the manual, the line of rivets stops
> at the rear spar, although there is room for at least two more rivets in each
> line behind the rear spar before you get to the flap-to-wing-attaching piano
> hinge. It would seem that riveting the skins together behind the rear spar
> would be a good idea (strength, and to prevent unsightly bulge), but would the
> shop heads interfere with flap operation?
I was just out at Van's and asked Bill about this, and about the fact
that it looks like the skin overlap would cause a problem for the flap
hinge where it overlaps the joint, and he told me that aft of the spar
you notch one of the skins and make it into a butt-joint. ???? I'd
never heard of this or seen it in the manual. He said it's in there,
but I couldn't find it. The SK drawing for the rivet pattern doesn't
show any such cutout, nor the plans as far as I can see. Anyone have
any more insight on this?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin) |
| Subject: | Re: proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
I think there is merit in this proposal but to those of you who pay for
email, consider this alternative:
I too once paid for my email. I have since found a much cheaper
alternate to the AOL, Compuserve, etc..and other name brand providers.
I currently use Netcom as my service provider. They give me FULL
internet access including use of the WWW. I pay $19.95 per month with
unlimited email and 40 hours of prime time per month. Prime time is
comprised of 9am to 12 midnight 5 days a week, with weekends counted as
non-prime. I have yet to hit the 40 hour (prime-time) usage mark... and
I am on here alot. I can get to more info than AOL or Compuserve can
currently give me and at a much cheaper rate. 28.8 baud is supported.
Just some food for thought...
Harold
You wrote:
>
>
> Most of us are use to using the internet on a 'free' basis so we tend
to
> chatter a lot. For those that have to pay for each piece of mail,
this
> can be a pain in the er.. wallet. Also, if you don't want to see all
the
> chatter, it would be nice to see a 'readers digest' version of the
answers.
>
> Here is a proposal to consider (take shots at):
> 1) add a second mail list for those that have to pay for messages.
> They would not be added to the normal rv-list(at)matronics.com mail
list.
>
> 2) They would still send requests to the normal
rv-list(at)matronics.com.
> so everyone can see the question.
>
> 3) Someone would be the moderator and would put together a summary
message
> of the various response that get broadcast on
rv-list(at)matronics.com
> say after several days.
> This summary would then be sent out on the new 'payor' mail list.
> All the misc. off the wall comments and chatter would be filtered
out.
>
> The problem with this is that someone would have to be that
moderator
> and spend some time boiling down the responses and sending out the
summary.
> This is sort of like what someone does to build the FAQ list but
it would
> be done more frequently and the sent out on the other mail list.
>
> An alternative proposal would be to set up the second mail list for
those
> that have to pay or don't want all the chatter and have some
automated way
> to filter the responses. We may have to put something in the
Subject of the
> message so we could filter out the chatter and just fwd real
technical info.
> This requires each sender to add the right key word in the message
so it could
> be filtered.
>
> Can the email zar's comment on the possibility of doing this?
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are
my
> own and are independent of my employer.
>
>Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
>mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
<01HQ273RMNF60011YP(at)utrcgw.utc.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
How about a simple idea.
I gather the folks who have to pay for messages can review the subject
field and decide not to read something. So why don't we just adopt a
policy of putting a keyword like 'nontechnical' or 'chatter' in the
subject field if the message has nothing (or little) to do with RV construction?
> Other mailing lists have addressed this very topic. Other lists use
> a "Digest" method of sending out the messages. Using this scheme,
> all of the posts to "the list" are held until the end of the day
> (or some other time of day), then sent out in ONE big message.
>
> The biggest drawback with this system is it tends to slow the dialog
> down quite a bit. For those of us who sit at the desk all day, just
> ready to respond to a new question or comment, we'd have to wait.
> It slows the overal process of communication.
>
> On the other hand, I really like having an excuse to stop what I'm
> doing and read my mail everytime a new rv-list message arrives :-)
> (not so sure my boss is crazy about the idea....)
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Wing skin overlap riveting |
The RV6 manual I have shows a sketch of the "notch" as described by
Randall. See my description below. However, I believe the sketch
references the TOP skin, and is there to prevent an overlapping skin edge
from producing scratches in the flap top surface during flap operation.
I just riveted my hinge across the overlap, but it would be
smoother and a little neater to make the notch on the bottom surface too.
The overlap does distort the flap hinge slightly.
Gil Alexander, RV6A ... working on fuselage upper bulkheads
>Rion said:
>> I have one-piece top wing skins and two-piece bottom wing skins for my RV-4.
>> There is a double row of rivets for riveting the bottom skins together and
>>to a
>> main wing rib where the skins overlap. In the manual, the line of rivets
>>stops
>> at the rear spar, although there is room for at least two more rivets in each
>> line behind the rear spar before you get to the flap-to-wing-attaching piano
>> hinge. It would seem that riveting the skins together behind the rear spar
>> would be a good idea (strength, and to prevent unsightly bulge), but would
>>the
>> shop heads interfere with flap operation?
>
>I was just out at Van's and asked Bill about this, and about the fact
>that it looks like the skin overlap would cause a problem for the flap
>hinge where it overlaps the joint, and he told me that aft of the spar
>you notch one of the skins and make it into a butt-joint. ????
**** Essentially, you just cut away the overlapping portion of the outer
skin that is aft of the rear spar. When you look at the oter skin on its
own, this cutout will look like a notch. ****
>I'd
>never heard of this or seen it in the manual. He said it's in there,
>but I couldn't find it. The SK drawing for the rivet pattern doesn't
>show any such cutout, nor the plans as far as I can see. Anyone have
>any more insight on this?
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Wing skin overlap riveting |
Text item:
>I was just out at Van's and asked Bill about this, and about the fact
>that it looks like the skin overlap would cause a problem for the flap
>hinge where it overlaps the joint, and he told me that aft of the spar
>you notch one of the skins and make it into a butt-joint. ???? I'd
>never heard of this or seen it in the manual. He said it's in there,
>but I couldn't find it. The SK drawing for the rivet pattern doesn't
>show any such cutout, nor the plans as far as I can see. Anyone have
>any more insight on this?
Yes. It was on the net about six or eight months ago; I think I did find it in
some obscure place in the manual, and I intended to add it to the instructions
(maybe I forgot: I'll have to check).
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Wing skin overlap riveting
From: edt.com!randall(at)matronics.com (Randall Henderson)
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 15:15:03 -0700
4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
The 'AE' just means that the engine is shipped with a Christen
inverted oil system. However, most of the newer Lyc. AE engines
also use a solid flange crankshaft (no holes in the prop flange
where some cracks develop).
You have to decide if you want a CS prop or not.
The AEIO 360-B4A was used in the Pitts S1S. This is a 180 HP version
with fuel injection, Bendix mags, and a solid crank. By 'solid',
I mean the center of the crank is solid and is not drilled for a CS
prop. The fuel Injector is on the bottom of the sump.
This is a parallel valve engine.
I would expect this engine to work OK on a RV. I Have one on a Pitts.
Use a lot of care on the IO360's. Some are 180 HP and some are 200 HP.
The 180's are the parallel valve engines (like the O320's).
The 0360 van sells is also a 180 HP and is a O-360-A1A which is parallel
valve and carburator. I think this engine will work with the CS prop
and has a hollow shaft.
The angle valve engines are all 200 HP. The IO-360-A1A is 200 HP and
not to be confused with the O-360-A1A noted above.
I point this out because they are also IO-360's but are wider and heavier
and may not fit well in a RV. I think a few have installed these however.
There are lots of variations on the sump and where the fuel injector
is mounted. Some mount on the rear, some on the bottom, and even a few
mount on the front.
I would talk with Van's to make sure what you find will work.
You could buy Van's O-360-A1A and just add the Christen inverted oil
yourself and convert it to a fuel injector. You may be able to find
a used injector and have it OH'd. It's probably close to $2K to OH it.
> I would
> like to put an aerobatic, fuel injected, 180hp, lycoming in my
> aircraft. What type would be the easiest installation with the
> fewest modifcations ie AEIO360what???????.
>
>
> Thankyou for your patience.
> Thomas R. Boatright
> trboatri(at)ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
> Urbana Il.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing skin overlap riveting (fwd) |
I know some local builders that notched out the skin so it forms
a butt joint. I did not do this however.
You may be able to add a rivet or two after the flaps are installed
and you can ensure the rivets would not rub on the flap.
>
> Rion said:
> > I have one-piece top wing skins and two-piece bottom wing skins for my RV-4.
> > There is a double row of rivets for riveting the bottom skins together and
to a
> > main wing rib where the skins overlap. In the manual, the line of rivets stops
> > at the rear spar, although there is room for at least two more rivets in each
> > line behind the rear spar before you get to the flap-to-wing-attaching piano
> > hinge. It would seem that riveting the skins together behind the rear spar
> > would be a good idea (strength, and to prevent unsightly bulge), but would
the
> > shop heads interfere with flap operation?
>
> I was just out at Van's and asked Bill about this, and about the fact
> that it looks like the skin overlap would cause a problem for the flap
> hinge where it overlaps the joint, and he told me that aft of the spar
> you notch one of the skins and make it into a butt-joint. ???? I'd
> never heard of this or seen it in the manual. He said it's in there,
> but I couldn't find it. The SK drawing for the rivet pattern doesn't
> show any such cutout, nor the plans as far as I can see. Anyone have
> any more insight on this?
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Undercut welds on X-Over exhaust? |
I recently received a crossover stainless steel exhaust system for my RV-6 only
to discover that 25% of the welds are undercut. Has this been a problem on
other High Country Exhaust systems? I know of one at Chino CA that has cracked
and been repaired. Everyone that I know flying with the exhaust systems from
Bakersfield CA (total of 4) have had cracks in less than 100 hours.
Gary RV-6 # 20480
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: CHATTER: Re: NOT Re: Unsubscribe please |
I once heard that if you align the slot in a straight blade screw so that
the slot faces forwards and backwards, the reduction in drag is worth
about .00193 mph.
On Wed, 3 May 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
>
> You know, I really like phillips head screws. What about
> the rest of you?
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing skin overlap riveting |
On Wed, 3 May 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
> I was just out at Van's and asked Bill about this, and about the fact
> that it looks like the skin overlap would cause a problem for the flap
> hinge where it overlaps the joint, and he told me that aft of the spar
> you notch one of the skins and make it into a butt-joint. ???? I'd
> never heard of this or seen it in the manual. He said it's in there,
> but I couldn't find it. The SK drawing for the rivet pattern doesn't
> show any such cutout, nor the plans as far as I can see. Anyone have
> any more insight on this?
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
The only place I have found any information on this is on one of the SK
line drawings in the manual. Its says to notch/butt joint the top skin
overlap so that the skin can lie evenly along the curved part of the flap
(the part you stick SS tape onto to avoid scratches). I have not found
any info on what to do with the bottom skins, but the rivet layout
drawing shows no rivets aft of the rear spar at this joint, so I notched
and butt jointed the bottom skins also.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
I just sent a message to get on the RV-list using AOL and romoving my name
from the list using compuserve. I gave the wrong address for AOL. The
correct address is jamescone(at)aol.com. Thanks. Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing skin overlap riveting |
> I was just out at Van's and asked Bill about this, and about the fact
> that it looks like the skin overlap would cause a problem for the flap
> hinge where it overlaps the joint, and he told me that aft of the spar
> you notch one of the skins and make it into a butt-joint. ????
I seem to recall that my pre-punched bottom wing skin has this
notch already cut in it. If anyone whould like me to, I can
pull it down from the rack and take some measurements.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kvap(at)solar.sky.net (Kevin E. Vap) |
| Subject: | Re: proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
Ed Weber wrote:
>
>How about a simple idea.
>I gather the folks who have to pay for messages can review the subject
>field and decide not to read something. So why don't we just adopt a
>policy of putting a keyword like 'nontechnical' or 'chatter' in the
>subject field if the message has nothing (or little) to do with RV
construction?
>
I agree with this idea. It offers the least amount of changes for all of
us, and promotes self-policing of our postings. This coupled with the FTP
access to the archive gives people the option of being able to filter the
unwanted messages by reading the subject, and if that takes too long, just
download the archive (hey Matt, could the archive be broken down into months
or some smaller file sizes?).
Harold Stutphin wrote:
>I too once paid for my email. I have since found a much cheaper
>alternate to the AOL, Compuserve, etc..and other name brand providers.
>I currently use Netcom as my service provider. They give me FULL
>internet access including use of the WWW. I pay $19.95 per month with
>unlimited email and 40 hours of prime time per month....
These types of providers are becoming more and more widespread. For those
that are still paying high prices for Internet, be patient and a provider
like this will hopefully set up operation in your area. Better yet, start
one yourself. I saw a franchise advertisement in the back of Internet World
magazine for starting up Internet provider services.
Here in the Kansas City area we have many (4 or 5) competing services doing
this. I pay $99 a year (less than $9 a month) for 120 hours (any hour of
day) of monthly access (local number, FULL access and includes personal WWW
home pages).
I hope that in the near future that everyone can find low priced services
like this.
- Kevin Vap
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Undercut welds on X-Over exhaust? |
Gary, have you called Larry at HiCountry? He seems like a real quality guy. I
have >145 hours on my HiC 4 pipe exhaust with no failures (even though he had to
bastardize it to clear my rear sump injection setup!). I suggest you give him
a
call and ask what's up with the 'undercut'. Then let us know!
BTW, a friend up in Wenatchee WA has a -6A with 150hp and 66hours. He has the
Bakersfield exhaust and has had his 3rd failure already. He has experience
rebuilding Corvettes and building race cars, so I highly doubt his installation
is the fault. He also mentioned that the phone # he had to ask the vendor about
the problems is no longer good...
In general, many builders have replaced the CA exhaust with the HiC exhaust and
been very happy with no longer having to get repairs every 30 hours or so. No
one has really figured-out why so many fail, they eventually replace them.
Interestingly, there is still a market for the used exhausts, even tho some
sellers are reluctant to sell given their experience. I guess in true
homebuilder fashion, the buyers feel a cheap broken exhaust is worth a try
before shelling-out almost $500 for a new one.
This is NOT a commercial for HiCountry exhausts, nor against the other brand, I
am just passing along info that has been told to me by RV pilots who have had
these experiences. Make your own conclusions.
dw RV-6, #20369, N790DW
>I recently received a crossover stainless steel exhaust system for my RV-6 only
>to discover that 25% of the welds are undercut. Has this been a problem on
>other High Country Exhaust systems? I know of one at Chino CA that has
>cracked
>and been repaired. Everyone that I know flying with the exhaust systems from
>Bakersfield CA (total of 4) have had cracks in less than 100 hours.
Gary RV-6 # 20480
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: engines (fwd) |
Herman, great info, a few things I learned along the way:
>The angle valve engines are all 200 HP. The IO-360-A1A is 200 HP and
>not to be confused with the O-360-A1A noted above.
>I point this out because they are also IO-360's but are wider and heavier
>and may not fit well in a RV. I think a few have installed these
>however.
Mike Wilson has been researching the IO-360 angle valve 200 hp engines.
They supposedly are more efficient and a good design. 3 years ago when
looking for an engine, I found them to be generally less $$ than the
320/360 normally used in RVs, but Van's recommended against them because
they are a little heavier, don't fit the std cowls, and "the RV was not
designed for 200 HP".
It seems the $$ thing is still true. It is up to you whether or not you
want to deal with the other issues. They sound like a decent engine
otherwise.
>There are lots of variations on the sump and where the fuel injector
>is mounted. Some mount on the rear, some on the bottom, and even a
>few mount on the front.
Take my word for it, DON'T get a rear-mount sump engine!
>I would talk with Van's to make sure what you find will work.
>You could buy Van's O-360-A1A and just add the Christen inverted
>oil yourself and convert it to a fuel injector. You may be able to
>find
>a used injector and have it OH'd. It's probably close to $2K to OH it.
Or, sell your new carb and for <$2000 install an Airflow Performance FI
system. Mine works very well. My O-360 had a rear-mount carb and I had
to change. I DIDN'T change the sump however (should have!) and paid for
it every step of the way afterwards (engine mount, injection mods,
exhaust), etc. But my injection system works great and I seem to get
good fuel economy as a bonus.
PS - Any builders in the Raliegh, NC area? I will be out there Mon-wed
next week, may be available to buck some rivets or whatever.
don wentz, RV-6, N790DW
> I would
> like to put an aerobatic, fuel injected, 180hp, lycoming in my
> aircraft. What type would be the easiest installation with the
> fewest modifcations ie AEIO360what???????.
>
>
> Thankyou for your patience.
> Thomas R. Boatright
> trboatri(at)ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
> Urbana Il.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Regarding the 'undercut' welds, I would return it if it is not welded
in a professional manner. They are too expensive to accept poor quality.
Also FYI, the proper way to weld Stainless Steel is to perge the inside
of the tubing with an inert gas (Argon for example) and then close off
the ends to keep the inert gas inside during the welding.
If this is not done, the O2 in the air will oxidize the inside of the
weld and it can lead to cracks later on.
The early Ex systems that Alan Toll use to do (were acutally welded
by Harmon) were not purged. Alan told me himself that Harmon would
do it the way he wanted to and did not purge them. Many of the
Toll Ex systems have cracked. They are also very thin tubing.
About 3 yrs ago Alan told me he had a different person doing his welding
and that they now purge them prior to welding. Don't know if it is
true or not. I think Vetterman purges his as well
The exh system must be properly supported to prevent cracks also.
'Properly' means supporting it to the engine and not the airframe
at the rear of the stacks. If you have flex joints in the tubes,
then you can attach to the airframe (motor mount tubing).
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | CONSTRUCTION - RV6 firewall flanges question |
RV6 builders,
Has anyone else had any problems with the flange angles on
the sides of an RV6 firewall?? My angles on the 0.062 formed aluminium
side pieces (F601B) were not correct, and I had to flute the part to get a
greater flange angle, and to make the part flat (no easy task in 0.062
stock!).
Now, as I am getting ready to drill the flanges for the fuselage
side skins, I am concerned how well the cowl hinge and 0.032 shim material
will fit over these flutes. I am not sure of the best option:-
A. Ignore it, and let the hinge be wavy - might be difficult to get the
hinge pin in place.
B. Smooth down the flutes on the inner surface - would weaken the part.
C. Make the 0.032 shim material thinner over the flutes to get an even
thickness of the skin/flange/shim/hinge assembly - would be very difficult
to do accurately.
D. Throw the hinge away, and put in some 0.032 or thicker material to hold
nutplates every 3 or 4 inches. Any waviness could then be adjusted for by
building up the glass on the cowling - do screws make it harder to get the
cowling off?? Most local builders have used this approach for the upper
cowling (from a Bingelis idea in Sport Aviation), but have left the lower
cowling attached by hinge stock.
Does anyone out there have any specific comments, or other alternatives?
thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... working on fus. stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | PDX Local meeting? |
PDX Local meeting? 5/4/95 8:43 AM
When and where is the meeting this evening? ...(5-4-95)
Directions?
Sorry for the entire list blast... I am unable to locate the short list...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: engines (fwd) |
<9505040003.AA18582(at)dierks.austin.ibm.com>
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> You have to decide if you want a CS prop or not.
> The AEIO 360-B4A was used in the Pitts S1S. This is a 180 HP version
> with fuel injection, Bendix mags, and a solid crank. By 'solid',
> Use a lot of care on the IO360's. Some are 180 HP and some are 200 HP.
> The 180's are the parallel valve engines (like the O320's).
> The 0360 van sells is also a 180 HP and is a O-360-A1A which is parallel
> valve and carburator. I think this engine will work with the CS prop
> and has a hollow shaft.
There was a discussion of this in a recent (last summer) Rvator, but
my question is this. Has anyone taken the time to compile a list of all the
Lycoming 320/360 series engines, giving horspower, accessory locations, and
most importantly, what applications they were used in, and whether or not they
are suitable for RV use. Like, say you find out about a wrecked 68 Mooney, go
look in you handy dandy table and see that it should have a 180 hp, O360-something
and yes, it will fit your RV6/6a but not the 4. Or, say that you know an O360-A1A
works, Van's sells them, so if you didn't have the $18k+ to plunk down, what
aircraft are/were they used in? Oh a 76-79 Grumman Tiger, then you have a reference
place to start. Say you find a dusty O320-H2AD in the corner of a hanger, you would
see in your trusty chart, that it came of a mid 70's C172, has a notorious maintenance
record, and is difficult to adapt to an RV installation, so you keep looking. Maybe
such a list exists, the back of the manuals list the engines that will work, but
not
what they were used in, making it tough to know what to look for. The same goes
for CS
props, can the prop off of the 68 Mooney be used, or do have to rework the entire
cowling
to make it fit? Will aerobatics throw a blade or not? Anyone got some snappy answers
to these?
Rgds
Mike Fredette RV4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
> I gather the folks who have to pay for messages can review the subject
> field and decide not to read something. So why don't we just adopt a
> policy of putting a keyword like 'nontechnical' or 'chatter' in the
> subject field if the message has nothing (or little) to do with RV
> construction?
I think we should just encourage everyone to try to be as specific as
they can on their subject lines and leave it at that.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
The reason I ask is that it seems we are always reading about so
and so who has completed an RV with engine ABC. So and so got a
great deal on engine ABC but had a horrendous time making it fit
because of reason XYZ, side draft carb, rear mounted carb, 200 hp,
had to redo the cowling, had to make an entirely new motor mount or
exhaust system.(sound familiar Don W?). In each case, it seems that
the builder in retrospect, would not have started down that path,
wasting huge amounts of time and MONEY making an engine intallation
fit, when it would have been faster, easier, and CHEAPER to sell
the engine and buy one the he KNOWS would fit without all the extra
hassles.
> There was a discussion of this in a recent (last summer) Rvator, but
>my question is this. Has anyone taken the time to compile a list of all the
>Lycoming 320/360 series engines, giving horspower, accessory locations, and
>most importantly, what applications they were used in, and whether or not they
>are suitable for RV use. Like, say you find out about a wrecked 68 Mooney, go
>look in you handy dandy table and see that it should have a 180 hp, O360-something
>and yes, it will fit your RV6/6a but not the 4. Or, say that you know an O360-A1A
>works, Van's sells them, so if you didn't have the $18k+ to plunk down, what
>aircraft are/were they used in? Oh a 76-79 Grumman Tiger, then you have a reference
>place to start. Say you find a dusty O320-H2AD in the corner of a hanger, you
would
>see in your trusty chart, that it came of a mid 70's C172, has a notorious maintenance
>record, and is difficult to adapt to an RV installation, so you keep looking.
Maybe
>such a list exists, the back of the manuals list the engines that will work, but
not
>what they were used in, making it tough to know what to look for. The same goes
for CS
>props, can the prop off of the 68 Mooney be used, or do have to rework the entire
cowling
>to make it fit? Will aerobatics throw a blade or not? Anyone got some snappy answers
to these?
Rgds
Mike Fredette RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> Herman, great info, a few things I learned along the way:
>
> >The angle valve engines are all 200 HP. The IO-360-A1A is 200 HP and
> >not to be confused with the O-360-A1A noted above.
> >I point this out because they are also IO-360's but are wider and heavier
> >and may not fit well in a RV. I think a few have installed these
> >however.
> Mike Wilson has been researching the IO-360 angle valve 200 hp engines.
> They supposedly are more efficient and a good design. 3 years ago when
> looking for an engine, I found them to be generally less $$ than the
> 320/360 normally used in RVs, but Van's recommended against them because
> they are a little heavier, don't fit the std cowls, and "the RV was not
> designed for 200 HP".
>
From what I understand, the angle valve mill is nowhere near as reliable
as the older O-360. The have valve guide problems. The O-360X is as good as
you can get as far as reliability go'es. This is the word from a long time
Lyc. rebuilder in the aera.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: TECH - Re: CONSTRUCTION - RV6 firewall flanges question |
>Does anyone out there have any specific comments, or other
>alternatives?
>thanks .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... working on fus. stuff
Gil, rather than fluting this part, I merely took a hammer and tapped the flange
until it was where I wanted it. This worked well on the thick material.
You MAY consider flattening your flutes out then doing this, depends on how
aggressive your flutes are.
dw
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Tom:
I don't have any personal experience regarding the installation of an AEIO-360,
but I can give you a good reference. One of our local builders here in
Minneapolis finished an RV a couple years ago with exactly the
engine/prop/inverted systems you are asking about. This RV is the jewel of our
builder's group and is a real rocket ship.
The builder's name is Mike Eesley and although he is not part of the RV-List,
I'm sure he would be more than happy to answer your questions. Mike is a pilot
for Northwest and may be gone sometimes but give him a call (tell him I
referred you) and I know he will help you out. His number is 612-542-8642.
btr> those of us who seek your advice. So much for my plea. Now to my
btr> question. I am building an RV-4 , empenage done wings 75%, I would
btr> like to put an aerobatic, fuel injected, 180hp, lycoming in my
btr> aircraft. What type would be the easiest installation with the
btr> fewest modifcations ie AEIO360what???????.
btr> Thankyou for your patience.
btr> Thomas R. Boatright
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for it |
Ed and others:
Gosh, guys (& gals), I'm not convinced this is a real major problem. But if it
will help, I have no qualms about putting a "nontechnical" or "chatter"
comment on the message header. Maybe we should take a poll and find out just
how many listers have to pay per message.
Matt, what do you think as the administrator???
EW> How about a simple idea.
EW> I gather the folks who have to pay for messages can review the subject
EW> field and decide not to read something. So why don't we just adopt a
EW> policy of putting a keyword like 'nontechnical' or 'chatter' in the
EW> subject field if the message has nothing (or little) to do with RV
EW> construction?
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Actually, mine was self-inflicted. I was only to the ribs-on-spars
stage when I found my engine. I didn't even think to ask someone
what an O-360-A2G was (basically an A1A with different sump).
Where I screwed-up was not springing $250 for an A1A sump when I
had the chance. It seemed like too much to pay at the time, so I
spent even more $$ and much time later.
It's still a good engine and having to make that 1 change isn't a
big deal, I should have.
Even with all I know now if I had the chance to buy the same model
engine for $9K with 11 hours on a cermichrome major, complete, I
would. Just change the sump and you have an A1A.
Just be smarter than I was and ask around (Van's, local A/P, this
list, etc.) about an engine you find. It may not say "A1A" now,
but it may be closer than you think!
dw, RV-6
>The reason I ask is that it seems we are always reading about so
>and so who has completed an RV with engine ABC. So and so got a
>great deal on engine ABC but had a horrendous time making it fit
>because of reason XYZ, side draft carb, rear mounted carb, 200 hp,
>had to redo the cowling, had to make an entirely new motor mount
>or exhaust system.(sound familiar Don W?). In each case, it seems
>that the builder in retrospect, would not have started down that
>path, wasting huge amounts of time and MONEY making an engine
>intallation fit, when it would have been faster, easier, and
>CHEAPER to sell the engine and buy one the he KNOWS would fit
>without all the extra hassles.
>Rgds
>Mike Fredette RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Holmes <dholmes(at)teleport.com> |
<---- Begin Included Message ---->
Subject: First flight
Many of you who are nearing the first flight in your RV-4 or RV-6 and have
minimal tail-dragger time may be somewhat apprehensive about this first
flight. I recently acquired an RV-4. Even though I learned to fly in the
Stearman as a navy cadet, and probably 1/2 of my 900 hours has been in
taildraggers, I did not feel confident in just jumping into the RV-4. Van's
Aircraft now has an excellent answer for anyone. One of Van's demonstator
RV-6 airplanes has been taken to Vernonia airport (about 15 miles from Van's
strip). Mike Seager, an excellent CFI, is giving instruction in the RV-6.
This is very suitable for the RV-4 training because the student is up front
and the planes are very similar in flight characteristics. Because my recent
flying is limited and I felt a need for this traing I took 4 flights with
Mike. The RV-4 and 6 fly very beautifully, but they are different!. First one
needs to be comfortable with the lightness of the controls. Keeping the
forearm resting on your right leg is helpful. The pilot must be aware of the
increased right rudder necessary for takeoff because of the torque to weeight
ratio. Also the new RV pilot must learn to land the plane in a three point
attitude even though the plane is not fully stalled in this position. If the
aircraft is fully stalled as with most taildraggers, the result is a tailwheel
first landing and a big bounce when the main gear touches the ground. Another
big difference is the difficulty in slowing the plane on downwind to flap
lowering speed of 100 mph. At any rate I strongly suggest a trip to Oregon
and a daily lesson in Van's RV-6 with Mike. You can read about this program
in RVator magazine or else call Van's factory. I was very relaxed on my first
RV-4 flight and these lessons are bargain priced. Mike has nerves of steel
because I didn't seem to make him nervous.
<---- End Included Message ---->
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Holmes <dholmes(at)teleport.com> |
Many of you who are nearing the first flight in your RV-4 or RV-6 and have
minimal tail-dragger time may be somewhat apprehensive about this first
flight. I recently acquired an RV-4. Even though I learned to fly in the
Stearman as a navy cadet, and probably 1/2 of my 900 hours has been in
taildraggers, I did not feel confident in just jumping into the RV-4. Van's
Aircraft now has an excellent answer for anyone. One of Van's demonstator
RV-6 airplanes has been taken to Vernonia airport (about 15 miles from Van's
strip). Mike Seager, an excellent CFI, is giving instruction in the RV-6.
This is very suitable for the RV-4 training because the student is up front
and the planes are very similar in flight characteristics. Because my recent
flying is limited and I felt a need for this traing I took 4 flights with
Mike. The RV-4 and 6 fly very beautifully, but they are different!. First one
needs to be comfortable with the lightness of the controls. Keeping the
forearm resting on your right leg is helpful. The pilot must be aware of the
increased right rudder necessary for takeoff because of the torque to weeight
ratio. Also the new RV pilot must learn to land the plane in a three point
attitude even though the plane is not fully stalled in this position. If the
aircraft is fully stalled as with most taildraggers, the result is a tailwheel
first landing and a big bounce when the main gear touches the ground. Another
big difference is the difficulty in slowing the plane on downwind to flap
lowering speed of 100 mph. At any rate I strongly suggest a trip to Oregon
and a daily lesson in Van's RV-6 with Mike. You can read about this program
in RVator magazine or else call Van's factory. I was very relaxed on my first
RV-4 flight and these lessons are bargain priced. Mike has nerves of steel
because I didn't seem to make him nervous.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: proposal for handling rv mail for those that have to pay for |
it
> Ed and others:
>
> Gosh, guys (& gals), I'm not convinced this is a real major problem.
> But if it will help, I have no qualms about putting a "nontechnical"
> or "chatter" comment on the message header. Maybe we should take a
> poll and find out just how many listers have to pay per message.
>
> Matt, what do you think as the administrator???
The standard answer is the daily or weekly digest. Kind of like mailing out
the complete archive, but on a smaller scale. Aside from appending all the
messages to the archive, it could also append them to the digest, and have a
chron job send that out each day. One message. Then people could request to
be on the RV-List or the RV-Digest. Simple.
It would help though if the Reply-To line was also properly set on each
echoed message.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Subscriber Comments... |
Regarding all of the chatter that is on the RV-LIST, I find it is interesting
and it also helps us get to know each other, as well as some very useful
information thrown in also. I finished my RV-6 in 1989 so the builders tips
are a little late for me but I like the association with other RV people.
You builders will find when you start flying your RV's you will not find
another group of flyers that are as friendly as the RV people no matter where
you are in the country.
I agree with Don Wentz that anyone who does not want to be here should not
be, BUT lets not flame anyone. We are here for learning, sharing ideas, and
making friends.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS almost 700 hrs see ya at OSH
________________________________________________________________________________
I'm getting ready to do the tapering on my wing skins where the inboard and
outboard skins overlap. Just wondering, has anyone tried making a new main
rib in this area with a much deeper flange so that the two skins could be
butted together and use the rib flange as a splice? Seems as if it wouldn't
be to tough to do if you can make the rib.
Any thoughts.
Ted
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
Excellent note. I thought I would add a couple of things I did in test
flying a fellow chapter member's RV-6. First, I did follow Van's first
flight advice (in the manual and RVAtor) to "approach" a stall on the first
flight to get a feeling for what the airspeed indicator indicates. Then,
use the typical 1.3 factor for the initial approach, ... As Van says, the
A/S system may not be accurate at that angle of attack, but it gives you a
rough starting point. I found that the plane I was flying had a fairly
good A/S system, but the 1.3 factor was entirely too fast for the
relatively short strip (2000') first flight; it took two approaches before
I felt that most of the float was out.
Second, while "calibrating" the "near stall" area of the A/S indicator, it
became clear that the three point attitude was definitely nowhere near the
stall attitude as the original poster explained. So, I did roll the bird
on in a three point attitude. However, I popped the tail up a couple of
inches to 1) provide better visibility (the -6 is wider and has a larger
blind spot, to me) and 2) kill some of the excess lift from "flying her
on".
The advice about resting the forearm on your thigh is an excellent one. I
did that and found that I had plenty of side to side and fore-aft motion
without having to have a "free" arm. Also, I could simulate "elevator
trim" by merely lifting my arm and placing it down slightly ahead or
behind the previous position. In this way, I did not have to make
constant changes to the installed elevator trim system. I used the
manual trim for the different regimes: climb, cruise, glide, but "minor'
adjustments were much easier with the forearm method. Caution, the
amount of stick travel may be a function of how much fat you have in your
arms/thighs :-)
______________________________ Forward Header ____________________________
Subject: First flight
Date: 5/4/95 11:41 PM
<---- Begin Included Message ---->
Subject: First flight
Also the new RV pilot must learn to land the plane in a three point attitude
even though the plane is not fully stalled in this position. If the aircraft is
fully stalled as with most taildraggers, the result is a tailwheel first landing
and a big bounce when the main gear touches the ground.
<---- End Included Message ---->
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Holmes <teleport.com!dholmes(at)matronics.com> |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Marc.Degirolamo(at)f15.n140.z1.fidonet.org (Marc Degirolamo) |
Hello to everyone who is using this newsgroup. I am building an Rv-4 in
Saskatoon Saskatchewan, Canada. I have the tail feathers complete and am
working on the wing...fuel tank at the present time. Would like to hear from
anyone on putting pro-seal and slosh in the tank... do's and don'ts on how to
do it.... properly. ttyl..<>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fried" <t42444(at)theo.dehavilland.ca> |
| Subject: | Exhaust/Tailwheel |
My indoor winter project has finally been completed and I seem to have finally
completed all the metal work on the aircraft. As far as structure is concerned
all that remains is the composite bits. That may be easier said than done as I
have to fabricate the wingtips from scratch. Oh well, at least they are
somewhat smaller than stock. The warm weather has arrived an looks like it
will stay so it is back to the garage and on with the fuselage stuffing. My
engine (IO-360-B1B) is almost ready and hanging it is where I will start.
Recent postings on exhaust systems reminded me of something that appeared in
Sport Aviation some years back. The article was about inertially tuned exhaust
systems and a series of flight tests in a Mooney. I am aware that the crossover
exhaust is a form of inertial tuning. Has anybody tried a 4 into 1 collector
system on a RV-6?
The Glasair in it's taildragger version has a locking device on the tailwheel.
There doesen't appear to be any direct connection to the rudder for steering. I
guess they use brakes or body english. Come to think of it the 6a also uses
brakes for steering. It would be nice not to have the springs and tailwheel
control arms hanging out in the breeze (what a breeze too) if I could avoid it.
I could even push the airplane backwards. Are there any current or former
Glasair types out there who can comment on this type of tailwheel?
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
Tapered Wing
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
************************************************************************
* Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent *
* of my employer. *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CONSTRUCTION - RV6 firewall flanges question |
| From: | "Sam Ray" <str(at)almaden.ibm.com> |
Gil Alexander said:
> Now, as I am getting ready to drill the flanges for the fuselage
>side skins, I am concerned how well the cowl hinge and 0.032 shim material
>will fit over these flutes.
Ken Scott had an article in a past RVator about his cowling installation
"challenges". He ended up drilling out the recommened shim size and putting
in 0.062 because the fiberglass was much thicker than Van had designed for.
Sam Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
I just received my wing kit last week and I noticed that I did
not receive any fuel senders, floats or any other fuel tank hardware.
Neither were they on the packing list. I did receive fuel tank caps.
Does this come with another kit. How do you install it if the wing is
already built?
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: CONSTRUCTION - Re: Wing Aesthetics |
Ted,
... it would seem that just going to a one-piece top skin would do
a much better job and be less work. I did not know about this option, but
if I had realized in time, I probably would have bought the skin locally
and used a single 0.032 piece (Van won't ship a one-piece skin).
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
>I'm getting ready to do the tapering on my wing skins where the inboard and
>outboard skins overlap. Just wondering, has anyone tried making a new main
>rib in this area with a much deeper flange so that the two skins could be
>butted together and use the rib flange as a splice? Seems as if it wouldn't
>be to tough to do if you can make the rib.
>Any thoughts.
>
>Ted
>RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Aesthetics (method opinion) |
>I'm getting ready to do the tapering on my wing skins where the inboard and
>outboard skins overlap. Just wondering, has anyone tried making a new main
>rib in this area with a much deeper flange so that the two skins could be
>butted together and use the rib flange as a splice? Seems as if it wouldn't
>be to tough to do if you can make the rib.
Cut off the old flange and make a new one out of a piece of thin material bent
up to make an angle and riveted to the rib. This angle would need a little
fluting on the side that goes against the rib. Wing strength would be the same
if you used two rows of rivets in each skin (four rows or equivalent.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Fried" <t42444(at)theo.dehavilland.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Aesthetics |
When I made the ribs for my tapered wing I found that the material on the
flanges needed to be fluted. This was quite pronounced on the nose ribs and
still required on the main ribs due to the curvature of the airfoil. A flange
wide enough for two skins might be quite a trick.
I have seen a wing where the builder incorporated a splice plate adjacent to
the rib and a butt join on the skins, it looks quite nice. Aerodynamically
there is a tiny drag reduction that does not justify the extra effort. If
aesthetics are important (yes yes) it might be worth it on the top surface
only.
The builder in question is out there listening, maybe he can provide additional
details on his skin mod.
I found out about this idea too late for my wing. I plan to put a ramp of
proseal (10 to 1) at all the lap joints on the aircraft. It looks great under
paint and provides a significant drag reduction (relative to unramped) for
spanwise lap joints. If you can get close to a de Havilland Dash 8 the method
is used extensively, have a look. The weight of the proseal is not expected to
be significant.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
Tapered Wing
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
************************************************************************
* Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent *
* of my employer. *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: prosealing tanks (was Re: hello) |
> Would like to hear from
> anyone on putting pro-seal and slosh in the tank... do's and don'ts on how to
> do it.... properly. ttyl..<>
>
I wrote an article a couple of months ago on my experience sealing the
tanks and Ken picked it up, it should be in the next RVator, due out in
a few days.
I didn't mention slosh in the article -- I didn't do it as there have
been some problems and Van's no longer recommends it. However, I did
etch all the parts with alumiprep and scotch-brite, just in case I DO
need to slosh some day to stop a leak. I also lightly alodyned all the
parts for corrosion protection, probably not necessary but I felt that
since I had etched the parts they might need the extra protection.
There is also a lot of info on this subject in the rv-list back postings,
if you want to plow through all the other stuff to find it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "J. Rion Bourgeois" <71311.2116(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Aesthetics |
I saw a polished RV-4 at Oshkosh last year that had butted top skins. I believe
they shortened the outer skin and then used the front and rear spar flanges and
a strip of .032 between the spars as the backing splice plates rather than
making a new rib. More work than the overlap, but it looked good. I am not
qualified to comment on the relative strength of such a butt joint versus the
overlap, though. Intuitively, it seems it would be as strong. You might run it
by an engineer before butt joining your bottom skins. On my RV-4, I opted for
the one piece top skin for aesthetics and ease of construction, and overlapped
the bottom skins for strength and ease of construction.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
f15.n140.z1.fidonet.org!Marc.Degirolamo(at)matronics.com (Marc Degirolamo)
| Subject: | Technical article on Fuel Tanks (long) |
On May 4, 10:32pm, Marc Degirolamo wrote:
> Subject: hello
>
> Hello to everyone who is using this newsgroup. I am building an Rv-4 in
> Saskatoon Saskatchewan, Canada. I have the tail feathers complete and am
> working on the wing...fuel tank at the present time. Would like to hear from
> anyone on putting pro-seal and slosh in the tank... do's and don'ts on how to
> do it.... properly. ttyl..<>
>-- End of excerpt from Marc Degirolamo
I received this great article on the trials and tribulations of tank sealing
from Gary Sobek (fellow rv-lister) and am submitting it here with his
permission. The article was co-authored by Randy Thorne and talks about his
RV-4 which he had hangared at Cable airport in So CA until his recent move. The
article was originally submitted last year to Van's for publication in the
RVator but never made it in for some reason.
This should stimulate some "non chatter". :)
BC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTEGRAL FUEL TANKS IN RV AIRCRAFT
Gary A. Sobek
1601 N. Sepulveda Bl, #221
Manhattan Beach CA 90266
email: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Randy Thorne
P.O. Box 1178
Ione, CA 95640-1178
email: 71131.1767(at)compuserve.com
15 March 1994
INTRODUCTION:
This article describes the repair of fuel leaks in an RV-4. It includes my
observations and recommendations on building integral fuel tanks that do not
leak. These recommendations are my opinions and have not been approved by
Van's Aircraft. Please be advised that my back ground is in Electrical
Engineering and that I am not a Mechanical or Aeronautical Engineer. I also do
not hold an A&P license.
REPAIR OF 1ST LEAK:
After 25 hours of flying, fuel leaks appeared that completely drained the fuel
tanks after 2 weeks of no use. Removal of the fuel tanks showed blue stains
coming from the cork gaskets used around the fuel sender and its mounting
plate. The fuel sender and its mounting plate were both removed, cleaned, the
faying surfaces scuffed with scotchbrite, reassembled with ProSeal and Allen
head cap screws. ProSeal was used on all faying surfaces and fillet seals were
placed around all edges, washers, and cap screws. Since the fuel tanks were
not leaking during the 1st 25 hours of flying, no pressure test was performed.
REPAIR OF 2ND LEAK:
After the next hour of flight, fuel leaks were again evident. This time, it
was decided to use slosh to seal the leaks. Randolph slosh was purchased
locally. This slosh is yellow in color and not white as the original slosh
was. (The original slosh was purchased from Van's.) The tanks were flushed
with naphtha (Coleman lantern fuel), purged with air, and sloshed. After 30
minutes, it was discovered that the original slosh had crinkled underneath the
new stuff. This means that we now had a bigger problem. The fuel tanks were
flushed several times with MEK. This removed all the yellow slosh and many
pieces of the now flaking white slosh. It was now believed that the safest
thing to do was disassemble the tank to remove all foreign matter that could
cause problems in the future. The rear close-out was removed with little
difficulty. After all rivets for the rear close-out were drilled out, a putty
knife was used to CUT between the faying surfaces. DO NOT PRY or you will
destroy the fuel tank. It is acceptable to use a hammer to hit the end of the
putty knife to get it to go between the 2 layers of aluminum. The trick is to
try to have the putty knife parallel to both surfaces and to go all the way
around the area to be separated before trying to pull apart. It was discovered
that the original ProSeal did not stick well to the alclad that was not
scuffed. The gray ProSeal was sticking only on the rear close-out. The rib
flanges were bright and shining just like new. The ProSeal on the rear
close-out was found to be removable with only moderate effort. Experimentation
was done to find the best way to clean up the tank. A stainless steel wire
wheel mounted in a drill works very well. (Do not use steel for it will latter
cause corrosion of the aluminum.) MEK was found to soften the slosh but do
nothing to the ProSeal. 2 different paint strippers were also tried. One of
the strippers worked just like the MEK. The other stripper produce much
different results. It was brushed on and covered with a piece of plastic from
a trash bag. After 20 minutes (the dwell time specified on the can) the
plastic was removed and the residue scrapped away. Much to our surprise, 85%
of the ProSeal came with it. To make repair of any future problem easier, a
.040" cover plate and doubler were fabricated for each bay. The doubler was
riveted on with 3/32" rivets and the cover plate installed with closed end pop
rivets. The only deviation done on the second tank was that the holes for the
"inspection plate" were cut before cleaning the rear close out. The material
removed was then inspected and tested for adhesion of the slosh. It was
discovered that the slosh had fair adhesion. It stuck but it could be pulled
away from the alclad with only moderate effort. Both tanks were now prepared
for assembly. After both tanks were cleaned, the faying surfaces (plus 1/2"
each side) were scuffed with a jitterbug (orbital sander) using 280 grit
aluminum oxide paper. The scuffing is done very lightly just enough to remove
the shine. This allows the ProSeal to stick to the metal and provide a good
seal. The external dimples are cleaned lightly using a deburing tool from
Avery . The tanks and all parts are then cleaned with MEK. Once dry the tanks
are cleaned with naphtha (Coleman lantern fuel) using a lint free white cloth.
This is repeated as many times as necessary, using a clean rag, until the rag
shows no signs of dirt. The fasteners are placed in a small pan and covered
with naphtha. Prior to use, they are placed on a clean rag and allowed to dry.
A fillet seal of ProSeal was then applied to all seams and shop rivet heads
using a pneumatic caulking gun, a 1/16" 45 degree nozzle and ProSeal tubes.
Wetting solution is then used to smooth out the fillet and get rid of all
voids. Wetting solution can be a commercially available product , saliva, or
nothing more than a soap solution like 409, Fantastic, or Simple Green. I
sprayed Simple Green all over my hand, rubbed my hand and fingers together,
then used one finger to smooth the fillet. Remember, anywhere that the wetting
solution touches, ProSeal will not stick. If no wetting agent came in touch
with the faying surfaces of the rear close-out, the faying surfaces can be
ProSealed. I like to run a bead around each rivet hole and a continuous bead
along both sides of the rivet holes. A small ring of ProSeal is placed in all
dimpled or countersunk holes before inserting a rivet. The excess ProSeal is
wiped from the shop side (the side that gets the bucking bar) of the rivet and
the rivet is set. After all rivets are set, a fillet seal is run over all
seams and shop rivet heads. The fuel sender is install per Van's plans except
Allen head screws and washers are used instead of phillips screws. A small
ring of ProSeal resembling an o-ring is placed on the Allen head cap screw, a
washer is then installed, then another ring of ProSeal. The cap screw is then
inserted into the nut plate. After all cap screws are started, they are
torqued and fillet sealed. (Cap screws makes latter removal of the hardware
easy.) After allowing a least 72 hours for the ProSeal to cure, the tanks are
pressured tested. I deviated from accepted methods. I pressure test to 3 psi!
This is more than is necessary but makes finding leaks faster for it stresses
the entire tank. I have enclosed a photo showing the pressure gauge and the
temporary bulges that occur to an RV-4 fuel tank. My RV-6 tanks were 1st
tested in this manner 3 years ago. I arrived at 3 psi by pressuring the tank
until I saw some surface distortion beginning to occur. I then looked at the
gauge. In all likelihood the fuel cap will leak as shown in photo and no rivet
leaks as shown in photo will occur. The leak at the rivet was repaired by
sloshing the rear of the tank. The tank was pressure tested again after
sloshing. No leaks were found. The tanks were then installed on the aircraft,
all lines were connected and torqued according to AC 43.13. Fuel is now added
and the tanks again inspected for leaks. After 1 hour of flight no leaks have
been found.
SUMMARY:
1. ProSeal does not stick well to alclad aluminum.
2. Scuff all faying surfaces and any where that you want ProSeal or slosh to
stick before dimpling.
3. Clean. Clean. Clean.
3. Do not use cork gaskets.
4. Covers that have been ProSealed can be removed by cutting the ProSeal with
a putty knife.
5. Fillet seal all seams and rivets.
6. Simple Green can be used as a wetting agent on the ProSeal.
7. Some paint strippers will soften ProSeal some will not.
8. Allen head cap screws are easier to remove than phillips.
9. Always pressure Test.
10. Pneumatic caulking guns make application of ProSeal cleaner, more precise,
more expensive.
11. ProSeal can be bought in pre measured tubes or mixed from a quart can and
then loaded into disposable tubes for use in a caulking gun. Approximately 5
tubes at $20 each are need for 2 tanks. 1 quart cans are $50.
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR NEW RV FUEL TANK CONSTRUCTION:
1. Locate, drill, and debur all holes according to instructions.
2. Scuff all faying surfaces and areas that you want ProSeal / slosh to
stick. (Very few adhesives will stick to smooth surfaces.)
3. Dimple where necessary. Clean dimple with Avery deburing tool.
4. Clean until a white rag picks up no dirt.
5. Use pneumatic ProSeal gun to apply ProSeal from 1/16" nozzle. (Use pre
measured tubes or buy empty tubes and load by hand.)
6. Make sure that you are using the proper sealant. When in doubt, research
the MIL Spec. to insure compatibility with fuel.
7. Place thin bead of ProSeal in each countersink before inserting a rivet.
8. Assemble "D" section according to the manual.
9. Install fillets at all seams and over all rivet shop heads.
10. "Wet out" all fillets. (Smooth with wet finger of "Simple Green" to remove
any voids.)
11. Follow instruction in manual for painting slosh.
12. Install close out in same manner using fillets over all rivets and seams.
Be careful that fillet does not interfere with spar.
13. Use ProSeal in place of all gaskets in the fuel tank. Use allen head cap
screws to mount fuel sender / access plates. Covers can be removed by
cutting away the ProSeal with a putty knife. (Cut! Do not pry.)
14. Slosh rear close out according to the instruction manual.
15. Pressure test your tank. Use "Snoop" leak detector to locate leaks.
16. Repair ALL leaks before installing on the aircraft.
17. Pressure test after all repairs.
18. Install fuel tank on aircraft and torque all fittings according to
AC-43.13.
19. Fuel aircraft and inspect for leaks.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL:
ProSeal Tubes:
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
Pneumatic ProSeal Caulking guns/empty cartridges/ nozzles:
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
U.S. Industrial Tools
Swap Meets/Pawn shops near major aircraft manufactures
Snoop Leak detector:
Any commercial plumbing supply house that stock supplies for gas lines.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
X X
ZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWV
FWAVBMYQCLXJRGNTFWABMYQCQLXJRGTFWHABMYQCLXJVRGTFHABMYUQCLXVRGTFHOABYUQCLXWVRGTFH
GRTUFHNBDTZFQATQGRUFHNBDTRZFQTQGRUYFHNBTRZFQETQGUYFHNBQTRZQEHTQGUYFNBXQTZQXEHTQG
UQPDMMSKSJDOONCSUQDMSMSKSJDONCVSUDMRSMKSZJDNCNVSDMSRSKSSZJNCFNVSDMSSKLSSJNSCFNVS
JBAHAWXSALESVWDBJBHALWXSALESWDSBJHAQLWSAPLEWDKSBHAIQLSAMPLWDKSBHDAILSAMPLJWDKSBH
ZXDEIWQMWXOUWGUKZXEIKWQMWXOUGUMKZEIFKWMWJXOGUQMKEIFKWMIWJXGUWQMKEIFWMKIWXGYUWQMK
NWIZZTYXXEHTUVRTNWZZTYXXEKHTURTNWZLZTYXEKHTUQRTNZLSZTYXEKHUQGRTNZLSTYAXEHUDQGRTN
UHOMSMYSZWBYWWYVUHOSMYSZTWBYWWVUHEOSMYSZWBYEWWVUEOOSMYSZWBEWWVUEZOOMYASZBEFWWVUE
UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Djahearn(at)aol.com |
Could someone pass along the address for the RV home Page ?
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Senders |
> I just received my wing kit last week and I noticed that I did
> not receive any fuel senders, floats or any other fuel tank hardware.
> Neither were they on the packing list. I did receive fuel tank caps.
> Does this come with another kit. How do you install it if the wing is
> already built?
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
The fuel senders and gages are are extra. Van's sells them in the
optional parts catalog. The floats come with the senders. You need to get
them and fit them after you've riveted the skin to the ribs and before
you've riveted on the back baffle. You should purchase your guages as
well or borrow some to use when fitting the senders and calibrating the
movement of the arms.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Aesthetics |
On Fri, 5 May 1995 TLump(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm getting ready to do the tapering on my wing skins where the inboard and
> outboard skins overlap. Just wondering, has anyone tried making a new main
> rib in this area with a much deeper flange so that the two skins could be
> butted together and use the rib flange as a splice? Seems as if it wouldn't
> be to tough to do if you can make the rib.
> Any thoughts.
The wing skins are joined to each other by a double row of rivets. This
is necessary for strength. If you butt-joint the skins using the rib
flange as a splice plate, you would need 4 rows of rivets, 2 rows per
skin, to get the same strength. Thats a lot of extra rivets, plus the rib
flange would be at least 3 inches wide. It would be tough to form a rib
with flanges that wide, I would think. Also, after you form a rib it has
to be heat treated for strength. All the ribs in the kit are hydro
formed, then heat treated.
By the way, just what is hydro-forming? Does it mean forming the ribs in
a hydraulic press, or what?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Senders |
On Fri, 5 May 1995, Robert Busick wrote:
>
> I just received my wing kit last week and I noticed that I did
> not receive any fuel senders, floats or any other fuel tank hardware.
> Neither were they on the packing list. I did receive fuel tank caps.
> Does this come with another kit. How do you install it if the wing is
> already built?
>
The fuel senders have to be ordered separately. About $18 apiece, with
floats. You night want to get your gauges now too, so you can calibrate
the float arms.
You should have received the fittings for the fuel tank vents, fuel lines
and pitot tube. 5 blue anodized fittings in total.
If you want an inverted fuel tank pickup, you must order it separately
also. Its around 20 bucks.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
On 4 May 1995, Marc Degirolamo wrote:
> Hello to everyone who is using this newsgroup. I am building an Rv-4 in
> Saskatoon Saskatchewan, Canada. I have the tail feathers complete and am
> working on the wing...fuel tank at the present time. Would like to hear from
> anyone on putting pro-seal and slosh in the tank... do's and don'ts on how to
> do it.... properly. ttyl..<>
Hi Marc,
I'm just sealing up my first RV-6 tank in Winnipeg.
Here is a synopsis of what I have learned from this list, plus my own
recent experience. YMMV.
I have tried both Pro-Seal and another product available locally called
PRC-102. The PRC seems to be stronger once cured, but it is horrendously
expensive at $65 per pint. I am now using Pro-Seal for the remainder of
the tanks and I'll save the PRC for sealing off the firewall.
The key to applying Pro-Seal is to have the metal surface gently scuffed
up with scotch-brite or 400 grit papaer and surgically clean. Use Coleman
lantern fluid as recommended by Vans. Use paper towels but NOT recycled
ones. They can contain contaminants. Clean the areas to be prosealed
thoroughly, 3 times. Buy a box of vinyl examination gloves from the drug
store and use them whenever cleaning or prosealing. Dont't ever touch the
clean metal with your bare hands. Change gloves often. I went through an
entire $15 box of gloves on just 1/2 my first tank! This is overkill, I
could have wiped my hands off with paper towels. But, I have never had
any black gunk on my hands, ever. Laquer thinner will clean proseal off
just fine, until it cures. Then, it can be scraped off of metal
surfaces with a fingernail if necessary.
The proseal makes the bucking bar or hand squeezer slide on the rivet as
you buck, making it very easy to clinch the shop head (bad). You need to be
extra careful to get good heads. Use the minimum acceptable rivet length.
Keep the bucking bar clean, and wipe any excess proseal off of the shop
head before you start to rivet. This give the bucking bar a better grip
on the rivet, and it won't clinch as easily. My tank rivets are NOT the
nicest looking shop heads I've ever done, that's for sure.
Keep a coffee can of laquer thinner handy. As you remove the
gunked up clecos, keep them compressed, and wipe them with a rag dipped
in thinner, then pop them into the can. When you clean up, compress each
cleco and wipe it dry. This does not take very long, and my clecos are
still good as new. Your tools can be easily cleaned with laquer thinner.
You have a couple of hours to do this, don't panic, but don't leave them
overnight, either.
I keep my shop cool while prosealing, to keep it from setting up too
fast, then I crank up the heat for a few days to let it cure. I do a
couple of tank ribs at a time, then leave them for 4 or 5 days and do
something else so the proseal can set up.
Van's does not recommend sloshing at this time. There are reports of
sloshes being affected by fuel additives, particularly those in auto
fuel. Since we all may soon be running the new unleaded avgas (basically
auto fuel) I am not sloshing mine. I am being VERY liberal with the
proseal. I apply it to the rib flanges before riveting, I make sure there
is a bit in the rivet hole (which might mean shaving a few rivets later),
and I run a bead along the rib/skin junction after riveting. And, I cover
up each shop head with a small glob just for good measure.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING Fri May 5 15:48:37 0700 1995 remote
from fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: Re: WWW Home page
To all concerned...
the address for the RV home page is:
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
John Hovan has done an excellent job with the page!
russ
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: WWW Home page
Date: 5/5/95 4:52 PM
Could someone pass along the address for the RV home Page ?
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Technical article on Fuel Tanks (long) |
This is my second posting of this, the first one didn't seem to make it through
for some reason.
On May 4, 10:32pm, Marc Degirolamo wrote:
> Subject: hello
>
> Hello to everyone who is using this newsgroup. I am building an Rv-4 in
> Saskatoon Saskatchewan, Canada. I have the tail feathers complete and am
> working on the wing...fuel tank at the present time. Would like to hear from
> anyone on putting pro-seal and slosh in the tank... do's and don'ts on how to
> do it.... properly. ttyl..<>
>-- End of excerpt from Marc Degirolamo
I received this great article on the trials and tribulations of tank sealing
from Gary Sobek (fellow rv-lister) and am submitting it here with his
permission. The article was co-authored by Randy Thorne and talks about his
RV-4 which he had hangared at Cable airport in So CA until his recent move. The
article was originally submitted last year to Van's for publication in the
RVator but never made it in for some reason.
This should stimulate some "non chatter". :)
BC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTEGRAL FUEL TANKS IN RV AIRCRAFT
Gary A. Sobek
1601 N. Sepulveda Bl, #221
Manhattan Beach CA 90266
email: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Randy Thorne
P.O. Box 1178
Ione, CA 95640-1178
email: 71131.1767(at)compuserve.com
15 March 1994
INTRODUCTION:
This article describes the repair of fuel leaks in an RV-4. It includes my
observations and recommendations on building integral fuel tanks that do not
leak. These recommendations are my opinions and have not been approved by
Van's Aircraft. Please be advised that my back ground is in Electrical
Engineering and that I am not a Mechanical or Aeronautical Engineer. I also do
not hold an A&P license.
REPAIR OF 1ST LEAK:
After 25 hours of flying, fuel leaks appeared that completely drained the fuel
tanks after 2 weeks of no use. Removal of the fuel tanks showed blue stains
coming from the cork gaskets used around the fuel sender and its mounting
plate. The fuel sender and its mounting plate were both removed, cleaned, the
faying surfaces scuffed with scotchbrite, reassembled with ProSeal and Allen
head cap screws. ProSeal was used on all faying surfaces and fillet seals were
placed around all edges, washers, and cap screws. Since the fuel tanks were
not leaking during the 1st 25 hours of flying, no pressure test was performed.
REPAIR OF 2ND LEAK:
After the next hour of flight, fuel leaks were again evident. This time, it
was decided to use slosh to seal the leaks. Randolph slosh was purchased
locally. This slosh is yellow in color and not white as the original slosh
was. (The original slosh was purchased from Van's.) The tanks were flushed
with naphtha (Coleman lantern fuel), purged with air, and sloshed. After 30
minutes, it was discovered that the original slosh had crinkled underneath the
new stuff. This means that we now had a bigger problem. The fuel tanks were
flushed several times with MEK. This removed all the yellow slosh and many
pieces of the now flaking white slosh. It was now believed that the safest
thing to do was disassemble the tank to remove all foreign matter that could
cause problems in the future. The rear close-out was removed with little
difficulty. After all rivets for the rear close-out were drilled out, a putty
knife was used to CUT between the faying surfaces. DO NOT PRY or you will
destroy the fuel tank. It is acceptable to use a hammer to hit the end of the
putty knife to get it to go between the 2 layers of aluminum. The trick is to
try to have the putty knife parallel to both surfaces and to go all the way
around the area to be separated before trying to pull apart. It was discovered
that the original ProSeal did not stick well to the alclad that was not
scuffed. The gray ProSeal was sticking only on the rear close-out. The rib
flanges were bright and shining just like new. The ProSeal on the rear
close-out was found to be removable with only moderate effort. Experimentation
was done to find the best way to clean up the tank. A stainless steel wire
wheel mounted in a drill works very well. (Do not use steel for it will latter
cause corrosion of the aluminum.) MEK was found to soften the slosh but do
nothing to the ProSeal. 2 different paint strippers were also tried. One of
the strippers worked just like the MEK. The other stripper produce much
different results. It was brushed on and covered with a piece of plastic from
a trash bag. After 20 minutes (the dwell time specified on the can) the
plastic was removed and the residue scrapped away. Much to our surprise, 85%
of the ProSeal came with it. To make repair of any future problem easier, a
.040" cover plate and doubler were fabricated for each bay. The doubler was
riveted on with 3/32" rivets and the cover plate installed with closed end pop
rivets. The only deviation done on the second tank was that the holes for the
"inspection plate" were cut before cleaning the rear close out. The material
removed was then inspected and tested for adhesion of the slosh. It was
discovered that the slosh had fair adhesion. It stuck but it could be pulled
away from the alclad with only moderate effort. Both tanks were now prepared
for assembly. After both tanks were cleaned, the faying surfaces (plus 1/2"
each side) were scuffed with a jitterbug (orbital sander) using 280 grit
aluminum oxide paper. The scuffing is done very lightly just enough to remove
the shine. This allows the ProSeal to stick to the metal and provide a good
seal. The external dimples are cleaned lightly using a deburing tool from
Avery . The tanks and all parts are then cleaned with MEK. Once dry the tanks
are cleaned with naphtha (Coleman lantern fuel) using a lint free white cloth.
This is repeated as many times as necessary, using a clean rag, until the rag
shows no signs of dirt. The fasteners are placed in a small pan and covered
with naphtha. Prior to use, they are placed on a clean rag and allowed to dry.
A fillet seal of ProSeal was then applied to all seams and shop rivet heads
using a pneumatic caulking gun, a 1/16" 45 degree nozzle and ProSeal tubes.
Wetting solution is then used to smooth out the fillet and get rid of all
voids. Wetting solution can be a commercially available product , saliva, or
nothing more than a soap solution like 409, Fantastic, or Simple Green. I
sprayed Simple Green all over my hand, rubbed my hand and fingers together,
then used one finger to smooth the fillet. Remember, anywhere that the wetting
solution touches, ProSeal will not stick. If no wetting agent came in touch
with the faying surfaces of the rear close-out, the faying surfaces can be
ProSealed. I like to run a bead around each rivet hole and a continuous bead
along both sides of the rivet holes. A small ring of ProSeal is placed in all
dimpled or countersunk holes before inserting a rivet. The excess ProSeal is
wiped from the shop side (the side that gets the bucking bar) of the rivet and
the rivet is set. After all rivets are set, a fillet seal is run over all
seams and shop rivet heads. The fuel sender is install per Van's plans except
Allen head screws and washers are used instead of phillips screws. A small
ring of ProSeal resembling an o-ring is placed on the Allen head cap screw, a
washer is then installed, then another ring of ProSeal. The cap screw is then
inserted into the nut plate. After all cap screws are started, they are
torqued and fillet sealed. (Cap screws makes latter removal of the hardware
easy.) After allowing a least 72 hours for the ProSeal to cure, the tanks are
pressured tested. I deviated from accepted methods. I pressure test to 3 psi!
This is more than is necessary but makes finding leaks faster for it stresses
the entire tank. I have enclosed a photo showing the pressure gauge and the
temporary bulges that occur to an RV-4 fuel tank. My RV-6 tanks were 1st
tested in this manner 3 years ago. I arrived at 3 psi by pressuring the tank
until I saw some surface distortion beginning to occur. I then looked at the
gauge. In all likelihood the fuel cap will leak as shown in photo and no rivet
leaks as shown in photo will occur. The leak at the rivet was repaired by
sloshing the rear of the tank. The tank was pressure tested again after
sloshing. No leaks were found. The tanks were then installed on the aircraft,
all lines were connected and torqued according to AC 43.13. Fuel is now added
and the tanks again inspected for leaks. After 1 hour of flight no leaks have
been found.
SUMMARY:
1. ProSeal does not stick well to alclad aluminum.
2. Scuff all faying surfaces and any where that you want ProSeal or slosh to
stick before dimpling.
3. Clean. Clean. Clean.
3. Do not use cork gaskets.
4. Covers that have been ProSealed can be removed by cutting the ProSeal with
a putty knife.
5. Fillet seal all seams and rivets.
6. Simple Green can be used as a wetting agent on the ProSeal.
7. Some paint strippers will soften ProSeal some will not.
8. Allen head cap screws are easier to remove than phillips.
9. Always pressure Test.
10. Pneumatic caulking guns make application of ProSeal cleaner, more precise,
more expensive.
11. ProSeal can be bought in pre measured tubes or mixed from a quart can and
then loaded into disposable tubes for use in a caulking gun. Approximately 5
tubes at $20 each are need for 2 tanks. 1 quart cans are $50.
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR NEW RV FUEL TANK CONSTRUCTION:
1. Locate, drill, and debur all holes according to instructions.
2. Scuff all faying surfaces and areas that you want ProSeal / slosh to
stick. (Very few adhesives will stick to smooth surfaces.)
3. Dimple where necessary. Clean dimple with Avery deburing tool.
4. Clean until a white rag picks up no dirt.
5. Use pneumatic ProSeal gun to apply ProSeal from 1/16" nozzle. (Use pre
measured tubes or buy empty tubes and load by hand.)
6. Make sure that you are using the proper sealant. When in doubt, research
the MIL Spec. to insure compatibility with fuel.
7. Place thin bead of ProSeal in each countersink before inserting a rivet.
8. Assemble "D" section according to the manual.
9. Install fillets at all seams and over all rivet shop heads.
10. "Wet out" all fillets. (Smooth with wet finger of "Simple Green" to remove
any voids.)
11. Follow instruction in manual for painting slosh.
12. Install close out in same manner using fillets over all rivets and seams.
Be careful that fillet does not interfere with spar.
13. Use ProSeal in place of all gaskets in the fuel tank. Use allen head cap
screws to mount fuel sender / access plates. Covers can be removed by
cutting away the ProSeal with a putty knife. (Cut! Do not pry.)
14. Slosh rear close out according to the instruction manual.
15. Pressure test your tank. Use "Snoop" leak detector to locate leaks.
16. Repair ALL leaks before installing on the aircraft.
17. Pressure test after all repairs.
18. Install fuel tank on aircraft and torque all fittings according to
AC-43.13.
19. Fuel aircraft and inspect for leaks.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL:
ProSeal Tubes:
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
Pneumatic ProSeal Caulking guns/empty cartridges/ nozzles:
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
U.S. Industrial Tools
Swap Meets/Pawn shops near major aircraft manufactures
Snoop Leak detector:
Any commercial plumbing supply house that stock supplies for gas lines.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
X X
ZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWV
FWAVBMYQCLXJRGNTFWABMYQCQLXJRGTFWHABMYQCLXJVRGTFHABMYUQCLXVRGTFHOABYUQCLXWVRGTFH
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UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
X X
ZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWV
FWAVBMYQCLXJRGNTFWABMYQCQLXJRGTFWHABMYQCLXJVRGTFHABMYUQCLXVRGTFHOABYUQCLXWVRGTFH
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UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
subscribe=yes jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Gentlemen:
I am about to start the seemingly monumental task of fuel tank construction on
my RV-4. My question is this: exactly what type (part #?) of Proseal does Van
sell/recommend? Could you look at any containers around the shop and provide
some specific manufacturer's number. The reason I ask this is that NWA uses
many different types of Proseal in its maintenance shops and they buy it in
large quantities and also in neat one-use self-mixing containers that can be
applied with a caulking gun type of tool. I may be able to procure some this
way and perhaps save a lot of mixing mess but I need some specific part
numbers. Also what is the shelf life?
As always your help is appreciated.
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GEORGE(at)CHE.MsState.Edu |
by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.12/6.5m-FWP);
Sat, 6 May 95 8:39:08 GMT+6
| Subject: | wing tip attachment |
Has anyone used #6 or #8 washer head screws for wing tip attachment?
I was considering the possibility but wonder about aesthetics
and potential drag. I hate to spend money for #6 dimple die and
pilot cutter for such a limited application.
Cliff RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca (Shirley Hobenshield) |
| Subject: | Re: WWW Home page |
>Could someone pass along the address for the RV home Page ?
>
>
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Shirley Hobenshield shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
Kitwanga Elem. Jr. Sec. 604-849-5484
Box 88
Kitwanga, BC, Canada
V0J 2A0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
internet:rv-list-request(at)matronics.com, internet:rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | RV-list subscribe |
Subscribe=yes
Mail Archive=yes
Previously subscribed on Compuserve. Changing to AOL.
jamescone(at)aol.com
James Cone
422 Savannah Ridge Drive
St. Charles, MO 63303-2921
(314) 928-8703 FAX (314) 447-8803
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: ProSeal/ Wing tip attach |
We use Courtald"s PS 890-B2 in the caulk gun type containers. Seems to take
about 6 tubes per aircraft. We also use the #410 nozzles
We put a set of RV tips on with the Cleaveland #4 screw kit. Wasn't any fun,
didn't fit any better. My plane has the tips riveted on with the CS 4-4
rivets-- looks ok to me and they haven't fallen off. Also lots less work. Are
you thinking you'll have to pull them off sometime?
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Capacitance fuel senders |
Does anyone here have any experience with the capacitance fuel senders
instead of the traditional Stewart-Warner mechanical senders in
an RV?
I helped a friend install the Skysports system in a Skybolt the
other day and I was real impressed with it (no moving parts).
It also seems that since the probe itself is pretty long, it would
be possible to have the probe run from the bottom of the inboard
end of the tank to the top of the outboard end. This would
eliminate innacuracies in nearly-full tanks caused by the
dihedral of the wing.
Comments, anyone?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
in rib-straightening mode
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RICHRRRR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | unsuscribe rv-list |
unsuscribe rv-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JEFFREY A. HALL" <76476.733(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Capacitance senders reply |
>Does anyone have experience with capacitance type fuel senders...
Dean Hall in Ft. Collins has them flying in his RV-4, but he doesn't like them,
says they don't provide him with any usable information at all. But the Rocky
Mtn. RVator newsletter has a totally different story from someone else who has
them flying, also in a 4 I believe. I have some in the basement awaiting
installation in my -4 when I get to that point, (soon I hope).
Also, I have seen some info lately that indicates some have installed them with
the probe bent first to the bottom of the tank, then to the top. This sounded
bizarre to me, and when I checked the install instructions with my units, sure
enough, the probe is to be bent to the top of the tank first, then to the
bottom.
I just called Dean, and he says he installed them very close to the top
of the tank, so just bent them to the bottom, and accepted the fact that the
"top" setting would be partly down the tank. His problem is that both tanks
show either full or empty, but gets no travel in between. He hasn't talked to
SkySports about it yet.
Jeff
Ft. Collins
RV-4 2179
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitance fuel senders |
>Does anyone here have any experience with the capacitance fuel senders
>instead of the traditional Stewart-Warner mechanical senders in
>an RV?
The AirBeetle used the Vision Microsystems capacitance senders. They go
through every tank rib. The system had to be calibrated for the specific
tanks...ie the tank was filled in gallon increments, data was collected and
shipped to VM on a calibration chart along with the controller. It was
returned calibrated for the tanks. All in all it was pretty accurate over the
whole range.
Ken
RV6-A
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "(GASobek(at)ccgate.hac.com)via:70176.1660(at)compuserve.com" <70176.1660(at)compuserve.com> |
I had a phone call today from Larry at High Country Exhaust. He has requested
that I return my exhaust system for inspection and replacement. He said his
goal it to provide the best exhaust system available. He believes that a
defect may have gotten into my exhaust from a new welder. He also is
interested in any defects or repairs that may have been made to any of his
systems so that improvements that may be necessary can be incorporated into new
systems. So far, no one has ever contacted him about a failed system.
If you are going to order your exhaust from High County, do it before you need
it. He presently has a back log of 40 systems. The quality of his systems are
better than any other that I have seen.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | roberth(at)nwlink.com (Robert Huntsinger) |
| Subject: | unsubscribe rv-list |
unsubscribe rv-list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Extra holes in F-604-C |
When comparing the parts for my F-604 bulkhead to those shown
on the plans, I noticed that my F-604-C parts have two extra
holes in them.
The plans show that the outboard column of rivets (that attach
the F-604-C to the F-604-A) have only three rivets, not five.
Yet, my F-604-C's have five rivet holes in the outboard column.
I called Van's and Bill told me that is apparently an error,
there should in fact be only three rivets in that location.
He also said he would NOT put rivets in those extra two holes.
I'm posting this because I received my RV-6 wing kit a couple
of weeks ago, and I would not be surprised if other wing kits
have this same error.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: prosealing tanks (was Re: hello) |
> Would like to hear from
> anyone on putting pro-seal and slosh in the tank... do's and don'ts on how to
> do it.... properly. ttyl..<>
>
Do you have Frank Justice's instructions? If not, get em.
Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Pitot line routing |
Fellow Listers:
I have a questions regarding installation of the pitot line on the RV-4. From
what I can gather the line is run forward from the pitot tube through the main
spar lightening hole at station 71.25. Do you then run the aluminum tubing
through the lightening holes in the two inboard leading edge ribs or do you
drill holes in these ribs for Van's plastic bushings and secure that way?
The line then runs behind the fuel tank out to the root forward of the main
spar. How did you secure it behind the tank? Has anyone used nylon tubing for
this pitot line (Tygon I believe it is called?)
As always, your assistance is highly appreciated.
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Bysinger <john.bysinger(at)mccaw.com> |
| Subject: | Riveting Main Spar (RV4) |
The project I am helping out with is an RV4, the empenage has just been
completed. We are currently prepping the spar parts for assembly. So the
question is; Any advice on the riveting of the spar? We plan on using the
Avery dimpleing guide, as in the wing video. But they mention using a seven
lb. hammer, that sounds like a lot of pounding to us. How about using a 4X
rivet gun with the Avery tool? Has anyone had good/bad experiences with
these techniques?
Also I'd like to echo the request for Archived information to be available
in smaller chunks, by month or quarter, etc. Although I used to have full
internet access on a Sparc 10 in College, now I'm limited to Email only
(through work). Downloading 4MB of archived info just isn't that easy
through Email, and makes taking it home with me even more difficult, (I
don't have pkunzip or other archive-expanding programs available here.)
However smaller chunks could be more manageable. I would also like to
remark that for me, a digest of daily messages would be an option I would
consider, I don't get charged for Email, but I am quite busy during the day.
Getting a single Email in the morning or afternoon could be more
convenient.
With regards to drag coeffiecients and phillips on slot head screws, I think
that you can get little plastic covers from your local hardware store that
snap into the heads of some phillips head screws, and they only cost a
couple of cents each! The only problem is getting them to stay on at 150+
MPH, (maybe duct tape is the answer!)
John.Bysinger(at)McCaw.com
Mechanical Engineering Student and Main Assistant to Carol Lynn; RV4
Builder.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Garrett <wgarrett(at)mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us> |
| Subject: | 14 Years of RVator wing note |
I just recently received my copy of 14 Years of Rvator and was reading
the section on building the wings when I saw a short blip about needing
to leave space on the bottom of the inboard rib for nutplates to attach
the belly skin to the wing rib in final assembly. The article implies
that it is a mistake to use the 1 1/4" spacing for rivets some nutplates
need to be installed here at 2 1/2" spacing. Since I had already fluted
my inboard ribs and was ready to fit skins I was a bit concerned. In
looking through the directions with the plans I finally found a reference
to the nutplates that says they are to be installed BETWEEN the 1 1/4"
spaced rivets. If anyone else has this concern, not to worry. I'm
having a great time building my 6A but tracking down these kinds of
concerns so as not to mess something up is annoying and time consuming.
Hope this info is helpful to someone else. I'm new to the bulletinboard
but think it's a great idea.
Bill Garrett
RV-6A (22641)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | locking tailwheel |
I use a locking tailwheel on my Pitts as do a number of Pitts pilots.
This TW is built by Haigh (probably spelled wrong).
They advertise in the Sport Aerobatics mag. of IAC. If you need the
address let me know and I can look it up (its at home).
It uses a round spring similar to a RV but no 90 degree bend at the end.
You have to run a cable to the cockpit. The tailwheel is normally locked.
If you pull a lever in the cockpit, it unlocks the tailwheel.
A spring on the tailwheel locks the tailwheel when you let go of the release
handle. The tailwheel is a solid rubber type with aluminum wheel in the center.
You only unlock it to do sharp turns on the ground. You can normally do gentle
S turns without unlocking it.
I expect Glasair uses something similar.
I doubt if the RV requires this type of locking TW as it lands slower and is
not
very tricky on the ground. The stock RV TW is not full turning anyway.
Another TW that many RV's have switched to is the Aviation Products tailwheel
which is full swiveling (unlike the one that comes with a RV kit). Vands sells
the modified spring as you have to cut off the 90 degree bend at the end and
maybe machine it to fit the AP wheel. This spring is in Van's catalog
for $82.00 (June 94 version, pg 47). I don't see the tailwheel so you may
have to by it from AC Spruce, etc. You can also have a local machine shop
modify your old spring, which is what some of the local builders have done.
This may be easier if you have already drilled the mounting hole in the Fuselage.
One problem one RV6 had was the bolt that held the AP TW onto the spring
would get sloppy. He converted it to a tapered hole and a tapered pin bolt.
This takes a special tapered reamer I think but it now holds the TW on tight
to the spring.
>
> The Glasair in it's taildragger version has a locking device on the tailwheel.
> There doesen't appear to be any direct connection to the rudder for steering.
I
> guess they use brakes or body english. Come to think of it the 6a also uses
> brakes for steering. It would be nice not to have the springs and tailwheel
> control arms hanging out in the breeze (what a breeze too) if I could avoid it.
> I could even push the airplane backwards. Are there any current or former
> Glasair types out there who can comment on this type of tailwheel?
>
> David Fried
> DF-6 C-____
> Tapered Wing
> dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
>
>
>
> ************************************************************************
> * Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent *
> * of my employer. *
> ************************************************************************
>
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting Main Spar (RV4) |
> We plan on using the
> Avery dimpleing guide, as in the wing video. But they mention using a seven
> lb. hammer, that sounds like a lot of pounding to us. How about using a 4X
> rivet gun with the Avery tool? Has anyone had good/bad experiences with
> these techniques?
I used a 4.5 lb hammer and it took three good whacks per rivet, and it
went smoothly and wasn't particularly tiring or time consuming. A 4x
gun should work too though.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Garrett <wgarrett(at)mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us> |
| Subject: | Riveting Main Spars |
In response to John Bysinger's question concerning riveting the main
spars on an RV-4:
When I riveted the spars for my RV-6A I used the method suggested by Tony
Bingelis in Sport Aviation May 1993 using the 1 1/2 ton arbor press from
Harbor Freight Tools (the price has since gone up a few bucks) and it
worked great! I didn't have to drill out a single rivet. I did
experiment on a few scraps from the trimmings from tapering the spars
first.
One of the nice features of this system was being able to use the arbor
press and a round cpvc plumbing fixture reducer to seat each rivet
firmly before riveting it.
I used a 3 1/2 pound engineer's hammer which worked just fine so 7 pounds
sounds heavy to me too.
I have since experimented with driving these rivets with my 3X rivet gun
at about 45 pounds pressure (I have some spar reinforcing angle strips to
attach when they are primed) and that seems to work okay for the short
rivets but I doubt it would work well for the long rivets near the root
of the spar.
The Avery tool looks just a little too fragile to me for this kind of
work and I want it available and in good condition at $100 for all the
dimpling I will be doing as the 6A takes shape.
Bill Garrett
Pottstown, PA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Peter Garzero <pgarzero(at)panix.com> |
| Subject: | unsubscribe rv-list |
unsubscribe rv-list Peter Garzero
pgarzero(at)panix.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Extra holes in F-604-C |
>
>When comparing the parts for my F-604 bulkhead to those shown
>on the plans, I noticed that my F-604-C parts have two extra
>holes in them.
>
>The plans show that the outboard column of rivets (that attach
>the F-604-C to the F-604-A) have only three rivets, not five.
>Yet, my F-604-C's have five rivet holes in the outboard column.
>
>I called Van's and Bill told me that is apparently an error,
>there should in fact be only three rivets in that location.
>He also said he would NOT put rivets in those extra two holes.
>
>I'm posting this because I received my RV-6 wing kit a couple
>of weeks ago, and I would not be surprised if other wing kits
>have this same error.
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>RV-6 sn 23744
>
>
Right you are Dave. I got my 6A wing kit September '94 and it also has the
extra holes you described. It didn't even dawn on me to ask about it since
it seemed so obvious. I just put rivets in all the holes and hung it on the
wall. Did Bill say why you didn't want to put rivets there? I guess I'll
drill them out later if they get in the way. Congrats on your attention to
detail (and good judgement to ask questions).
Russell Duffy
RV-6A sn 22407
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <John.H.Henderson(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
| Subject: | Radio Station License Legislation |
----- Begin Included Message -----
>
>** Quote **
>
>On February 15, US Representatives Bart Stupak (D-MI) and Jack
>Fields (R-TX) introduced House Resolution 963 to amend the
>Communications Act of 1934 in order to permit recreational radio
>operations without radio licenses. This Resolution would allow
>general aviation to operate radios on domestic flights without a
>radio station license. The Resolution would also remove similar
>restrictions for recreational boaters. This law would do away
>with the requirement of radio station licenses in most general
>aviation aircraft eliminating the current $115.00 fee.
>
>But for this proposed law to even be voted on, you must call or
>write your local US Representative and ask him to co-sponsor this
>Resolution and vote for its passage. If you do not act on this
>opportunity now, you will have no one to blame for the high cost
>of radio licenses but yourself.
>
>You do not need to write anything long or involved, even a quick
April 04, 1995 - May 09, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ak