RV-Archive.digest.vol-am
June 09, 1995 - July 06, 1995
build, etc. etc..
I am a low time VFR pilot and former partner in a Cherokee. The Cherokee
drove me insane with the cost and aggravation of junky old production
airplanes. I left the partnership and started looking for an alternative.
This is where I ended up.
I've had my tail kit for 1 year and have not finished it ( insert usual
excuses here ). I've made some mistakes and have cursed the dismal
state of the plans/construction manual ( I've already downloaded Frank's).
I am a former Mechanical/Manufacturing Engineer and am a little sensitive
to the state of the plans. However, that is my ONLY gripe with Van and
his airplanes.
I normally "hang out" on Compuserve at 71552,2636(at)compuserve.com. I'm
looking forward to "chattering" with all of you.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Landing Light (chatter) |
Doug, glad to hear you got them in, but you didn't say what it took to make the
'gaps' go away. Thanks for the recommendation, but I want to make sure you
didn't have to "do anything extra" to make them work for you...
dw
Don:
Yes!! My DW landing lights are finished!! Well, Don, all it took was an
afternoon of head scratching but I finally found the combination. The first
problem was that I really had not trimmed the lens cover enough. That's why I
couldn't get them through the cut-out. Fixed that problem finally. The final
fit of the lens worked out OK also. One side had a final gap of about 1/16"
which was filled just fine with the "weatherstripping" you include in the kit.
Yes, I did get the wing kit in 1994 (fat fingers on the keyboard). It looks as
though my skins were rolled, so I would imagine that would result in a better
fit.
So now that it is done, Don, I'll recommend your light kit to anyone. I like
the looks of them... not so large that they impose on the good looks of the RV.
Guess what's next??? ...... Fuel tanks!!!!!!..... a summer of Proseal being
flung around the shop!
Thanks again to all..
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bob Seibert" <Bob_Seibert(at)oakqm3.sps.mot.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbulence & RV's |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Reply to: RE>>Turbulence & RV's
Date: 6/9/95 1:18 PM
From: Don Wentz
Bob, I too have a few 'dents' in my head, but I use cushions that keep me as
high as possible in the cockpit so I can almost see during ground ops.
This 5th point for the harness sounds Very interesting. Any details you can
sure would be great. The std lap belt could use a little help to 'hold you
down', without having it so tight it's uncomfortable.
Is the 5th point an addition to the std belts, or a whole new system?
thanks,
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
Don-
The 5 point system I was so impressed with was one that is retrofitted to an
RV-6 by Bill Wallace in Waco, TX. (N70TX I think - its Tony Bingellis'
original -6) Bill bought a whole new aerobatic 5 point system. Bill pulled
the floorboards out and installed a doubler just behind the stick cutouts.
Bill then cut a slot in the floorboard and doubler about 1/2 inch behind the
stick cutout. One loop of the strap actually passes thru the stick cutout and
then back up thru the slot he added. The crotch strap comes up thru the
existing stick cutout in the seat cushion. - no cushion mods needed.
Being a tightwad with a 4 point system, I will try to just add an additional
strap to my present setup. I have the type of belts which slide the two
shoulder harness fittings over the male tang of the lap belt. I've tried it
and I can get a third fitting on the assembly as long as it is thin. I've
even got a couple of extra shoulder harness straps in the extra parts box. I
will probably not do this mod for a while though. The unlimited ceilings and
40 mile visibility are not conducive to tearing apart the airplane!
Bob Seibert
RV-6 N691RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument discussion |
I heard last week during some 'hangar flying' that the FlyBuddy GPS unit
was making a comeback. Is that true? In any case, know where I might
buy one?
Also, I currently have a vacuum pump, Artificial Horizon, Gyro compass,
and electric Turn/Bank. I'm considering selling them all and installing
the Navaid Devices wing leveler.
This should be a good discussion for all of you trying to plan your
panels/equipment lists:
Why sell them? Well, I now have about 165 hours on my -6, since June 30
of 94. During that time, I have used those items about 30 minutes total
(by 'used', I mean, I had them running and referred to them while trying
to climb thru an unbelievable, scummy haze leaving Oshkosh - we gave-up
and went back down to 3500' where we could make-out the ground). To get
that 30 minutes, I had to buy the initial stuff, and already had to
replace the Horizon once.
My lowest priority 'mission profile' for my -6 is cross country travel.
I really enjoy flying 'for fun', in good weather, usually <100 miles
from home. Last year I made 3 trips outside of that range. I have no
intention of getting an instrument rating, it's not the kind of flying I
want to do.
Why get the wing leveler? I have noticed that it is difficult to read
maps when in any kind of turbulence. Usually I make my copilot try to
fly while I read them, if it's something I can't have them look at. I
have heard a lot of good things about using the wing leveler, and if it
could keep me 'wings level' while 'punching thru' a morning layer, or
make map reading easier, that would help too. What's the difference?
Aritficial Horizon is a gyro, so is the leveler. At least the leveler
is something I could use more often.
Summary, I think having gyros in my RV is a waste, so think about what
you will be using yours for and decide whether or not you need them.
They add a lot of $$ and weight.
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument discussion |
> Also, I currently have a vacuum pump, Artificial Horizon, Gyro compass,
> and electric Turn/Bank. I'm considering selling them all and installing
> the Navaid Devices wing leveler.
.
.
.
A friend of mine did just what you are contemplating in his -6
(only he got it right the first time 8-) ) and loves it. He
has it slaved to his GPS as well and he says that it makes those
long x-countries a breeze.
He also feels it gives him an emergency 'out' should he stumble
into IMC.
Sound's good to me.
| From: | Jawngault(at)aol.com |
Please terminate my subscription to this news letter. Thank you
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.Microchip.COM |
| Subject: | (RE) Instrument Discussion |
The Duck writes:
>Also, I currently have a vacuum pump, Artificial Horizon, Gyro
>compass, and electric Turn/Bank. I'm considering selling them all
>and installing the Navaid Devices wing leveler.
>Why get the wing leveler? I have noticed that it is difficult to
>read maps when in any kind of turbulence. Usually I make my copilot
>try to fly while I read them, if it's something I can't have them
>look at. I have heard a lot of good things about using the wing
>leveler, and if it could keep me 'wings level' while 'punching thru'
>a morning layer, or make map reading easier, that would help too.
>What's the difference? Aritficial Horizon is a gyro, so is the
>leveler. At least the leveler is something I could use more often.
Don,
Let me get this straight, you plan to fly IFR ("punch through a
morning layer) using a one axis autopilot (wing leveler) WITH NO
ARTIFICIAL HORIZON?(!!!)
Unless I am not understanding what the Navaid Devices wing leveler is
(does it have a horizon reference?) this sounds increadably dangerous.
What if the leveler goes out while in the soup, no matter how thin?
There is a very good chance that any autopilot could "run away", if it
does it at the wrong time (and Murphy says that is exactly when it
would happen) you could end up at an unusual attitude in the clouds
and not know it because you have no reference to check it against. (no
AI, no gyro HI, no gyro turn and bank) You would have no way to tell
if you were right side up or in a one G "death spiral" until you
breakout into granite cumulus.
I agree that a wing leveler would make life quite wonderful (can you
say "mile high club"), but having worked for an avionics manufacturer,
I tend not to trust any single instrument any further than I have to.
All those gyros you want to remove are redundant to one another to
some degree, so if one fails the others are useful to keep the plane
greasy side down. In addition, most planes have vacuum HI and AI and
an electric turn and bank so that all three are very unlikely to fail
simultaneously. If the wing leveler is an electric gyro, what if the
electric system fails?
I definatly don't want to flame you, but this sounds foolhardy in
anything but CAVU weather.
Scott Fink
RV28XXX (don't remember right off the top of my head), rear empenage
spar done
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
Don_Wentz wrote
>blaa blaa blaa.....
>Summary, I think having gyros in my RV is a waste, so think about what
>you will be using yours for and decide whether or not you need them.
I went through an agonizing decision before installing a full panel in my
(soon to be flying) RV-6A. In the end, the decision to install gyros was based
primarily on two things:
- A "just in case" mentality. (Although no IFR in Canada for homebuilts yet)
- An "ego" thing. I just WANTED it.
To try and minimize the cost I used Century Instrument stuff...ok. But like
you, I foresee sometime in the future where replacing the gyros may result in
NO gyros.
I'd also considered a remote compass kit from Century because flying purely
with a wet magnetic compass was not something I really felt comfortable
with...still the gyros won out.
The wing leveler idea is something I'd also considerd, but being an avid
experimenter I think I'd like to build my own.
Anyway, interesting point..and a very personal decision I'm sure.
Ken
(Just buggered up my cowl) RV6-A
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| Subject: | SUBSCRIBE RV-LIST |
SUBSCRIBE RV-LIST
Noel B. Del More
17 Meredith Drive
Nashua, NH 03063
603 882-3828 (Do NOT publish this number please)
603 880-8120 (FAX)
Building an RV-6 at this time.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
>(snip)
>I'd also considered a remote compass kit from Century because flying purely
>with a wet magnetic compass was not something I really felt comfortable
>with...(snip)
I am planning to leave out the gyro's also, and the only thing I will miss
is the HI. I just made a local flight from Pensacola (Mother of all class
C's) yesterday and received 3 or 4 vectors in the first 5 minutes. I have
to wonder how patient they will be with me floundering around trying to get
the wet compass to give me a reasonable heading while climbing. I've seen
vertical card compasses that are claimed to be more stable and usable, but
I've never flown with one. Has anybody tried one of these? Is is the same
as a remote compass? If not, how do those work? I've noticed that the
ground track readout on my Garmin 55 is a pretty good substitute for the HI
but I would rather not use it for that purpose.
Russell Duffy
RV-6? (almost "6" for sure)
Riveting the leading edge sections this weekend - then THE TANKS (he said
trembling)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Scappose Fly-in(chatter) |
Anyone make it to the fly- in at 1S4? I left 1S0 around 11 a.m. but had to
turn back east of CLS because of the weather. How did it turn out?
rgwelch
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
Greetings again,
I just finished riveting most of the rivets on both my LE skins and found
that it seems almost impossible to reach the front 2 or 3 rivets on each row
of holes. On top of that, the curvature of the skin makes the gun want to
go anywhere but where it's at. This is one of those cases where I really
wish I had gotten the 2X gun rather than the longer 3X gun. I can get
someone to help me with these rivets, but that means that I won't be able to
do the tanks by myself either. Did any of you manage to do these by
yourself? I have also found that the cradle they show in the book seems to
get in the way of these holes as well.
On the subject of tanks, In George O's video, he says to seal the tanks a
couple of ribs at a time with several days between work sesions. In the
recent RVator, the Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it all in one
sitting. Can anyone think of any reason it would be risky to get it all
over with in one weekend?
There is an RV-4 guy not far away that's ready to seal his tanks as well. If
I need help with the front rivets, I'll see if I can get him to help with
mine in return for helping with his. I'm not looking forward to doing it
once, much less twice. Thanks,
Russell Duffy
RV-"6" (OK, There, I said it!)
________________________________________________________________________________
good food, fair weather, lotsa rv's and fun people...
jim and jackie hillsboro or. a.k.a. jimnjac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Landing Light (chatter) |
Don:
When I finally got right down to it, the gaps were not as bad as I first
thought. I did place a hair dryer on the lenses while they were in place and
maybe that helped a little. I think why the "gaps" appeared was that the
initial fitting of the lenses were accomplished with a 3/32 holes drilled and
clecoed in place. But when these holes are then enlarged to accomodate the #6
screws, the lenses backed off a little bit. Again the reason for this was that
I had a pretty tight fit to begin with. If the lenses had been cambered just a
little tiny bit more, then this probably would not have been a problem. I'm
sure there are can be slight variations in LE shape which makes it hard to
produce a lenses that will match perfectly in all conditions. But it looks
fine now, so I have no complaints.
I decided to put in 100 W lamps so I went down to my local NAPA store to see if
they had them as per your instructions. They did have a 100 W bulb with the
proper NAPA part # but the mounting was different (cost would be $6.95). Then
happened to be browsing through the automotive section at the local Wal-Mart
and
there was the exact match (GE Halogen H3-100 for $4.95!!). Also Wal-Mart had a
fog lamp kit that looked pretty doggone close to the DuckWorth lamp. All right
Don, fess up, Wal-Mart is your supplier!!!
Thanks again for your help!!
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Fellow Listers:
I have just began fuel tank construction of my RV-4, a task that I approach
with just a little bit of apprehension. I have examined most of the postings
regarding tank construction over the past couple months and I hope these
questions are not too redundant:
1) In reference to Frank Justice's instructions, he mentions the alternate
fuel pickup (finger screen available from Aircraft Spruce). I tracked
down a brief description in the 10/93 RVator. Could you address the
merits of this installation vs. Van's curved tube. I assume this is
not Pro-Sealed in place but sealed with Fuel Lube or a similar sealant.
(Also could someone detail the uses of Fuel Lube?)
2) It sounds as though the cork gasket under the access plate has fallen
out of favor. What is the best material (cork/neopreme from NAPA? Is
there a part number?). Is this gasket material installed with any
other sealant?
3) I am leaning toward the capacitance type fuel gauges (Sky Sports). Has
anyone had any long-term experience with this units and can attest to
their reliability and accuracy?
As always your help is appreciated.
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Tail-wagging RV6 in turbulence (chatter) - 2nd. try |
**** Second transmittal due to my Mail Server problems -- apologies if it
is the second copy you got ****
Jerry,
My original posting was not intended to start any "hangar rumor
problems", but the comments came from a person who has been flying in the
turbulence of the Mojave Desert for many decades, completed his RV6 at
least 4 years ago, and is also an EAA Technical Councellor and an A&P.
It is noteworthy that the RV6T that Van designed to be certified
has a much larger vertical tail surface. It was also at the Bakersfield
fly-in, and the tail looked "huge" compared to the other RV6As parked next
to it.
>I cannot belive what I am reading about tail wagging V-tail Beech's tail-wag
>RV's do not tail-wag. Period!
>
>Randell is right, if you hit turbulence you well feel what is actually the
>airplane stabilizing itself after going through rough air.
>
>If you are flying in calm no wind conditions a RV will fly as smooth and as
>straight as a arrow, any time you have a light aircraft with the wing loading
>of a RV it will feel the bumps more than a heavy airplane and tend to feel
>like tailwag (or whatever you want to call it)if it is because of air
>seperating over the rudder as someone mentioned tuffting showed don't you
>think it would do it all the time?
No .... The airflow would be more likely to seperate when the angle of
attack of the vertical fin is not at zero degrees to the airflow. This
would occur with some random turbulent event, if the tail moves to the
right, then the seperation would be expected on the left side of the
vertical. Once the airflow has seperated, then the effective area of the
vertical fin and rudder would be much reduced, and the damping effect to
restore the centerline of the aircraft to zero degrees to the normal
airflow would be reduced (hence a small amount of "tail-wagging" - less yaw
stability). In smooth air, this airflow would be at 0 degrees, and tufting
would show no seperation.
This performance in turbulent air is something the sailplane pilots have
been fighting with for years, and the addition of turbulator tapes on the
wings has created measured improvements at low speeds (turbulent air in
thermals), with sometimes an actual loss at higher speeds in smoother air.
For glider pilots, this is a good trade-off. The latest German sailplanes
are now admitting that performance drops off in real-life turbulent
conditions, and turbulator tape is now appearing on as-delivered aircraft
on both horizontal and vertical tail surfaces. The manufacturers are
claiming this improves performance and stability in real life situations.
The sailplane designers would love to remove all of the tail surfaces to
reduce drag (see the new Genesis!), so turbulators on the tail surfaces
allow them to reduce tail areas and keep the same stabilty.
This is similar to the increased performance gained by the "micro-vortex
generator" kits sold for many aircraft.
>
>The motion that is felt in a RV is strictly a function of how much turbulence
>there is.
Turbulence would be a fairly random effect, "tail-wagging" is a yawing
oscillation during recovery from a deflection due to turbulence.
{ glider pilot humor follows ---
Turbulence can also be defined as flying your unballasted sailplane into a
1500+ ft/min thermal over the White Mountains (just E. of the Sierras) at 3
pm on a summer afternoon. :^) Try getting an RV to climb at over 1000
ft/min at 17,000 ft. altitude! :^)
}
>
>It just tickles me to see how many experts there are on RV's that don't even
>have one flying yet.
The experiments were done on a flying RV by a seasoned pilot. He claims
the turbulator tape has a beneficial effect.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS first flight July 14, 1989
Does your RV have any paint trim dividing lines on the forward 25% of the
vertical stabilizer?? The zig-zag turbulator tape is only 0.020 thick or
so, a paint dividing line could have a similar effect. Do you have any
antennae on the aft upper fuselage??
The particular test RV6 had a very smooth urethane paint job with no paint
trim on the tail surfaces, and no upper antennae.
Again ... I didn't intend to start any "flame wars" or rumors that RVs are
unstable. RVs are not going to be falling out of the sky due to some tail
design problem! I was just reporting an effect, and cure, that a
A&P/pilot/owner/builder of an RV6 told me. His fix (OK, I've been watching
OJ TV, the "alleged fix") was not done on some random basis, but after
testing he did.
..... Gil Alexander .... wish I could perform some actual tests of my own!!
... but a turbulence expert in sailplanes!!
Like Jeremy, last comment from me on this subject too!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michelle J Tinckler <mjt(at)unixg.ubc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
Re the tanks,etc., Definitely get some help. I have done two sets of
tanks,(4)Dl
o2'
On Sat, 10 Jun 1995 gulf.net!rad(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Greetings again,
>
> I just finished riveting most of the rivets on both my LE skins and found
> that it seems almost impossible to reach the front 2 or 3 rivets on each row
> of holes. On top of that, the curvature of the skin makes the gun want to
> go anywhere but where it's at. This is one of those cases where I really
> wish I had gotten the 2X gun rather than the longer 3X gun. I can get
> someone to help me with these rivets, but that means that I won't be able to
> do the tanks by myself either. Did any of you manage to do these by
> yourself? I have also found that the cradle they show in the book seems to
> get in the way of these holes as well.
>
> On the subject of tanks, In George O's video, he says to seal the tanks a
> couple of ribs at a time with several days between work sesions. In the
> recent RVator, the Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it all in one
> sitting. Can anyone think of any reason it would be risky to get it all
> over with in one weekend?
>
> There is an RV-4 guy not far away that's ready to seal his tanks as well. If
> I need help with the front rivets, I'll see if I can get him to help with
> mine in return for helping with his. I'm not looking forward to doing it
> once, much less twice. Thanks,
>
> Russell Duffy
> RV-"6" (OK, There, I said it!)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michelle J Tinckler <mjt(at)unixg.ubc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
Definitley get some help to rivet. Use a small bar and low pressure to
get to first 2 or 3 hard to reach. Use some PR-88 hand cream when doing
tanks. Works wonderfully. Use a cradle when sealing, just move tank along
when it gets in the way of next row. Clean off the rivet tails as you go
or the bar will slip and dump rivets. Slow, but worth it. It is so much
better to have help in this as you cannot see well enough both inside and
outside of tanks while you hold bar and gun at correct angle. Go ahead
and seal one tank per day. you get it all done with all the clean up etc.
Also when you are all done, mix a little acetone and proseal in a slurry
and brush it over the areas you want to check a little more, some pin
hole leaks usually occur at the top corner of baffle and in nose areas.
Further, I would not use the slosh. See news letter as to why. Lots of
peeling in some cases. Go for it and dedicate the day and you will get a
big job out of the way. Get that help and if you end up doing two sets of
tanks, it is a very small price to pay for what you saved. Good luck.
Regards, Austin Tinckler, RV-6 Vancouver,B.C.
On Sat, 10 Jun 1995 gulf.net!rad(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Greetings again,
>
> I just finished riveting most of the rivets on both my LE skins and found
> that it seems almost impossible to reach the front 2 or 3 rivets on each row
> of holes. On top of that, the curvature of the skin makes the gun want to
> go anywhere but where it's at. This is one of those cases where I really
> wish I had gotten the 2X gun rather than the longer 3X gun. I can get
> someone to help me with these rivets, but that means that I won't be able to
> do the tanks by myself either. Did any of you manage to do these by
> yourself? I have also found that the cradle they show in the book seems to
> get in the way of these holes as well.
>
> On the subject of tanks, In George O's video, he says to seal the tanks a
> couple of ribs at a time with several days between work sesions. In the
> recent RVator, the Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it all in one
> sitting. Can anyone think of any reason it would be risky to get it all
> over with in one weekend?
>
> There is an RV-4 guy not far away that's ready to seal his tanks as well. If
> I need help with the front rivets, I'll see if I can get him to help with
> mine in return for helping with his. I'm not looking forward to doing it
> once, much less twice. Thanks,
>
> Russell Duffy
> RV-"6" (OK, There, I said it!)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | (RE) Instrument Discussion |
> I definatly don't want to flame you, but this sounds foolhardy in
> anything but CAVU weather.
>
> Scott Fink
Okay. Stupid question. I've seen "CAVU" in a wide variety of references,
but none of them have ever spelled out what the letters stand for....
Someone care to fill me in?
On a separate, but far better note -- my 6A tailfeathers arrived on
Wednesday! I've already traversed the Minneapolis area for tools you
just can't find and will send in an order to Avery tomorrow morning.
The empennage kit looks like "a few weeks" of work. Comments? Of course,
those few weeks don't start until I actually get beyond the inventory and
storage process. :-)
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rivets-n-tail feathers |
am now to the point of decision..to countersink or dimple..i think i would
perfer to countersink. you who have gone through this, would you please
comment..thanks
jimnjac rv-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re(2): Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
Re: the last coupla questions on tanks...
I did mine about 2 years ago and still worry if I did them ok., even though at
the time I took good care to clean/seal everything etc, I feel now that I
rushed it.
The reason I mention this is that IKNOW I could have done a better job after
listening to all the comments and feedback on this newsletter which I
unfortunately didn't know about at the time....so...the message is, take the
time and effort to do the best you can, it'll be worth it when you're two
years after the event with no worries.
Ken
RV6-A (or is it RV-6A?)
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: (RE) Instrument Discussion |
CAVU - Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited
CAVOK - Ceiling And Visibility OK
WOXOF - Indefinite Ceiling Zero Obscured Visibility Zero Fog. Murk, gloom,
sit in hangar with a cup of coffee and wait.
At the risk of being flamed, I would not try flying in any sort of IMC
(Instrument Meterological Conditions) without a full set of gyros for
attitude and heading, with at least an electric T&B or turn coordinator as a
back up. Life is too short to bet it on one electrical wing leveler.
Thirty-six years and 16,000 plus hours of flying experience tells me that.
Accident statistics are full of stories of pilots without instrument ratings
and proper IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) equipment in good working order, who
flew into IMC and died as a result.
I plan to equip my RV-6A with a full IFR panel and dual nav/coms with glide
slope, even though I don't plan on flying hard IFR with the plane. It is
there just for the occasional overcast day when I want to get on top or
descend through an overcast to get down to terra firma. The RV is a little
to quick to be a good instrument platform. I plan to practice quite a few
ILS's (Instrument Landing System approaches) before I attempt one for real.
Jim Cone, Editor, Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: rivets-n-tail feathers |
Always dimple if you can, especially on the fuselage lower front skin. This
is much stronger and is less likely to smoke the rivets. If you can't dimple
both parts, dimple the skin and countersink the structure that it is riveted
to. Jim Cone, Editor, Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rivets-n-tail feathers |
On Sun, 11 Jun 1995 JIMNJAC(at)aol.com wrote:
> am now to the point of decision..to countersink or dimple..i think i would
> perfer to countersink. you who have gone through this, would you please
> comment..thanks
> jimnjac rv-4
>
I machine-coutersunk my H.S. and V.S., and (of course) dimpled the
rudder and elevators. I think my countersinking skills are pretty good,
but even I cannot maintain the same consistency from hole-to-hole as I
can by dimpling. If I did it over again, I would dimple. I'm dimpling
the .032 skins on my wing instead of countersinking them.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (RE) Instrument Discussion |
On Sun, 11 Jun 1995, Joe Larson wrote:
> Okay. Stupid question. I've seen "CAVU" in a wide variety of references,
> but none of them have ever spelled out what the letters stand for....
> Someone care to fill me in?
Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited
> The empennage kit looks like "a few weeks" of work. Comments?
I have 235 man-hours in my empennage kit.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: rivets-n-tail feathers |
Jim and Jackie
Good to see you at the flyin at Scappoose on Saturday, regarding dimpling
versus countersink, my advice is to dimple everything that you can on the
airplane, it is not quite as smooth as countersinking but I feel in the long
run you get a more uniform finish and less headaches later if you don't get
the countersink set just perfect for each rivet.
This has been discussed at great length here and I think the consensus is it
is better to dimple when possible.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Tail-wagging RV6 in turbulence (chatter) - 3rd. try |
**** Third transmittal due to my Mail Server problems -- apologies if it
is a multiple copy you got ****
Jerry,
My original posting was not intended to start any "hangar rumor
problems", but the comments came from a person who has been flying in the
turbulence of the Mojave Desert for many decades, completed his RV6 at
least 4 years ago, and is also an EAA Technical Councellor and an A&P.
It is noteworthy that the RV6T that Van designed to be certified
has a much larger vertical tail surface. It was also at the Bakersfield
fly-in, and the tail looked "huge" compared to the other RV6As parked next
to it.
>I cannot belive what I am reading about tail wagging V-tail Beech's tail-wag
>RV's do not tail-wag. Period!
>
>Randell is right, if you hit turbulence you well feel what is actually the
>airplane stabilizing itself after going through rough air.
>
>If you are flying in calm no wind conditions a RV will fly as smooth and as
>straight as a arrow, any time you have a light aircraft with the wing loading
>of a RV it will feel the bumps more than a heavy airplane and tend to feel
>like tailwag (or whatever you want to call it)if it is because of air
>seperating over the rudder as someone mentioned tuffting showed don't you
>think it would do it all the time?
No .... The airflow would be more likely to seperate when the angle of
attack of the vertical fin is not at zero degrees to the airflow. This
would occur with some random turbulent event, if the tail moves to the
right, then the seperation would be expected on the left side of the
vertical. Once the airflow has seperated, then the effective area of the
vertical fin and rudder would be much reduced, and the damping effect to
restore the centerline of the aircraft to zero degrees to the normal
airflow would be reduced (hence a small amount of "tail-wagging" - less yaw
stability). In smooth air, this airflow would be at 0 degrees, and tufting
would show no seperation.
This performance in turbulent air is something the sailplane pilots have
been fighting with for years, and the addition of turbulator tapes on the
wings has created measured improvements at low speeds (turbulent air in
thermals), with sometimes an actual loss at higher speeds in smoother air.
For glider pilots, this is a good trade-off. The latest German sailplanes
are now admitting that performance drops off in real-life turbulent
conditions, and turbulator tape is now appearing on as-delivered aircraft
on both horizontal and vertical tail surfaces. The manufacturers are
claiming this improves performance and stability in real life situations.
The sailplane designers would love to remove all of the tail surfaces to
reduce drag (see the new Genesis!), so turbulators on the tail surfaces
allow them to reduce tail areas and keep the same stabilty.
This is similar to the increased performance gained by the "micro-vortex
generator" kits sold for many aircraft.
>
>The motion that is felt in a RV is strictly a function of how much turbulence
>there is.
Turbulence would be a fairly random effect, "tail-wagging" is a yawing
oscillation during recovery from a deflection due to turbulence.
{ glider pilot humor follows ---
Turbulence can also be defined as flying your unballasted sailplane into a
1500+ ft/min thermal over the White Mountains (just E. of the Sierras) at 3
pm on a summer afternoon. :^) Try getting an RV to climb at over 1000
ft/min at 17,000 ft. altitude! :^)
}
>
>It just tickles me to see how many experts there are on RV's that don't even
>have one flying yet.
The experiments were done on a flying RV by a seasoned pilot. He claims
the turbulator tape has a beneficial effect.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS first flight July 14, 1989
Does your RV have any paint trim dividing lines on the forward 25% of the
vertical stabilizer?? The zig-zag turbulator tape is only 0.020 thick or
so, a paint dividing line could have a similar effect. Do you have any
antennae on the aft upper fuselage??
The particular test RV6 had a very smooth urethane paint job with no paint
trim on the tail surfaces, and no upper antennae.
Again ... I didn't intend to start any "flame wars" or rumors that RVs are
unstable. RVs are not going to be falling out of the sky due to some tail
design problem! I was just reporting an effect, and cure, that a
A&P/pilot/owner/builder of an RV6 told me. His fix (OK, I've been watching
OJ TV, the "alleged fix") was not done on some random basis, but after
testing he did.
..... Gil Alexander .... wish I could perform some actual tests of my own!!
... but a turbulence expert in sailplanes!!
Like Jeremy, last comment from me on this subject too!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rivets'-n-tail feathers |
thanks to all for the input..guess what i need to do is try both methods and
see what happens..i used a sheet of thin clear plastic placed against the
skelton to locate where the rib's and spars were to be. marked and then
drilled. this was used as a template over the skins. after one side was
completed, the template was flipped over for the other side. i know this has
been used before, just re-comfirming that it works great and takes a lot of
tension out of the operation...that first hole takes 10 seconds to drill
after the hour and a half mental preparation.
jimnjac hillsboro,or.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Leading edge rivets/Tanks -Reply |
>>> 06/10/95 07:11pm >>>
Greetings again,
I just finished riveting most of the rivets
on both my LE skins and found that it seems
almost impossible to reach the front 2 or 3
rivets on each row of holes. On top of
that, the curvature of the skin makes the
gun want to go anywhere but where it's at.
This is one of those cases where I really
wish I had gotten the 2X gun rather than
the longer 3X gun. I can get someone to
help me with these rivets, but that means
that I won't be able to do the tanks by
myself either. Did any of you manage to do
these by yourself? I have also found that
the cradle they show in the book seems to
get in the way of these holes as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JS - I tried to do it myself and ended up
with a slight ding. I got my wife to help
after that. Same for the tanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the subject of tanks, In George O's
video, he says to seal the tanks a couple
of ribs at a time with several days between
work sesions. In the recent RVator, the
Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it
all in one sitting. Can anyone think of
any reason it would be risky to get it all
over with in one weekend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JS- for myself it would just be too time
consuming. The pro-seal starts getting
sticky in less than an hour here in
Florida. Your tools will also get so gunked
up you would spend hours cleaning them.
Once the proseal sets your clecoes would be
ruined. Most important I don't think you
want to be twisting and bending the tank
assembly while other ribs are setting up.
Better to go slowly and do a thorough job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is an RV-4 guy not far away that's
ready to seal his tanks as well. If
I need help with the front rivets, I'll see
if I can get him to help with mine in
return for helping with his. I'm not
looking forward to doing it once, much less
twice. Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't be proud get the help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Russell Duffy
RV-"6" (OK, There, I said it!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | rivets-n-tail feathers -Reply |
There was an excellent discussion on this
topic a while back. Countersinking appear
to look better from the start but dimpling
is stronger and much less time consuming.
Some people have had cracking in the paint
around the rivet heads of countersunk
rivets after 400 hours. I countersunk my HS
and VS but dimpled the tanks and will not
counter sink any more. takes to long with
countersinking and then rivet shaving.
>>> 06/11/95 05:01pm >>>
am now to the point of decision..to
countersink or dimple..i think i would
perfer to countersink. you who have gone
through this, would you please
comment..thanks jimnjac rv-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
Russell, if it's any help, I did all of my LE & Tank skins myself with
little problem. Most of the other builders I have talked to have done the same.
I also have a 3X gun and it was a bit of a problem until I got one of the
Avery "Swivel" rivet sets. It has a rubber cup that sticks out beyond the
face of the set about a 1/16". You have to press hard to have the face make
contact with the work, but it doesn't move around as much as a conventional
"mushroom" when you pull the trigger. Some people hate this tool and others
really like it. I wouldn't be without it.
I've since bought an _X gun and like it much better that the 3X. If I were
to do it over again, I would have started with an 2X.
I did have to jack up the tank in the jig by putting rags under it in order
to get to the last few rivets at the tip.
I don't know about George O's video, but I found it much less stressfull to
do a couple Tank Ribs at a time. I also masked off between the ribs before
I gooped them up with Proseal. It made for a much neater job.
>I just finished riveting most of the rivets on both my LE skins and found
>that it seems almost impossible to reach the front 2 or 3 rivets on each row
>of holes. On top of that, the curvature of the skin makes the gun want to
>go anywhere but where it's at. This is one of those cases where I really
>wish I had gotten the 2X gun rather than the longer 3X gun. I can get
>someone to help me with these rivets, but that means that I won't be able to
>do the tanks by myself either. Did any of you manage to do these by
>yourself? I have also found that the cradle they show in the book seems to
>get in the way of these holes as well.
>
>On the subject of tanks, In George O's video, he says to seal the tanks a
>couple of ribs at a time with several days between work sesions. In the
>recent RVator, the Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it all in one
>sitting. Can anyone think of any reason it would be risky to get it all
>over with in one weekend?
>Russell Duffy
>RV-"6" (OK, There, I said it!)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rivets-n-tail feathers |
>am now to the point of decision..to countersink or dimple..i think i would
>perfer to countersink. you who have gone through this, would you please
>comment..thanks
Countersinking can look slightly better if you are really good at it. But
dimpling must be done on most surfaces anyway, gives much more consistent
results unless you are really good with tools, and is stronger in most
applications. The only reason dimpling ever looks noticeably worse is when you
use poor dies or not enough pressure.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | steveha(at)mdhost.cse.TEK.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
<11112311.ensmtp(at)mail.magic.ca>
Previous stuff deleted
> Ken wrote:
>
> I'd also considered a remote compass kit from Century because flying purely
> with a wet magnetic compass was not something I really felt comfortable
> with...still the gyros won out.
Ken,
Tell me more about the remote compass kit. I'm going through the
decision right now on whether to put in gyro instruments or not. I
could easily do away with the art horizon. I fly a friends RV-6 now
that doesn't have any gyros and I SERIOUSLY miss not having anything
but a whisky compass. Of course an electric DG is a $$$ option.
I've heard absolutely terrible reports on the vertical card compasses
so those aren't a serious consideration.
Is a remote compass the answer?
Thanks,
Steve Harris
DPL HW Engineering
627-2454 Voice
627-5548 Fax
email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM email for PGP public key
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
> 1) In reference to Frank Justice's instructions, he mentions the alternate
> fuel pickup (finger screen available from Aircraft Spruce). I tracked
> down a brief description in the 10/93 RVator. Could you address the
> merits of this installation vs. Van's curved tube. I assume this is
> not Pro-Sealed in place but sealed with Fuel Lube or a similar sealant.
> (Also could someone detail the uses of Fuel Lube?)
The finger-screen just seemed like an interesting idea, but a lot of those turn
up on the net and they are not as great as they appear. It would be the only way
to go if you choose not to make the big access plate on your tank. That's what
the net is good for. The basic pickup provided by Van's works fine and is very
easy to make and install. Fuel lube is used like plumbers use thread seal.
ProSeal can also be used since it does not get completely hard.
> 2) It sounds as though the cork gasket under the access plate has fallen
> out of favor. What is the best material (cork/neopreme from NAPA? Is
> there a part number?). Is this gasket material installed with any
> other sealant?
I have never had a cork gasket fail in years of working on cars, but I did
develop a significant fuel leak in my Cheetah from the standard fuel sender
gasket which hardened up and cracked. It was probably the best possible
space-age rubber, but I don't know how old it was.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
>
> Greetings again,
>
> I just finished riveting most of the rivets on both my LE skins and found
> that it seems almost impossible to reach the front 2 or 3 rivets on each row
> of holes. On top of that, the curvature of the skin makes the gun want to
> go anywhere but where it's at. This is one of those cases where I really
> wish I had gotten the 2X gun rather than the longer 3X gun. I can get
> someone to help me with these rivets, but that means that I won't be able to
> do the tanks by myself either.
>
Do you have some 'ethical' reason for wanting to do them by yourself? I
wouldn't want to try to do the leading edge rivets by myself if I had
help available, although I know people who have managed it. Why risk
denting your LE skins?
>
> I have also found that the cradle they show in the book seems to
> get in the way of these holes as well.
Yeah it kind of does -- it would be easy to build it differently and
make it so that there was less interference, like with one board,
slightly narrower than the end pieces, across the bottom instead of one
on each side. But of course you don't find this stuff out 'till
after you've built and are using it. :-(
> On the subject of tanks, In George O's video, he says to seal the tanks a
> couple of ribs at a time with several days between work sesions. In the
> recent RVator, the Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it all in one
> sitting. Can anyone think of any reason it would be risky to get it all
> over with in one weekend?
I don't see any reason why not, except that it would be one LONG weekend. I
was amazed at how much longer things took when you add proseal to the
equation.
>
> There is an RV-4 guy not far away that's ready to seal his tanks as well. If
> I need help with the front rivets, I'll see if I can get him to help with
> mine in return for helping with his. I'm not looking forward to doing it
> once, much less twice. Thanks,
Yeah a fellow builder helped me with mine and in return I had to help with
his. Maybe you can find some poor slob who doesn't know what he's getting
into and doesn't have an RV to ask return favors on. But then he'd probably
ask you to help him move someday. :-}
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (DONE with proseal)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Scappose Fly-in(chatter) |
>
> Anyone make it to the fly- in at 1S4? I left 1S0 around 11 a.m. but had to
> turn back east of CLS because of the weather. How did it turn out?
> rgwelch
>
I don't recognize those identifiers. Where were you coming from?
Yes lots of people showed up to the Portland RVators' "Fourth Annual
Northwest RV Fly-In", especially considering the weather. Actually it
wasn't too bad considering what the weather report had predicted. I
flew in from HIO (just over the hill, 10 mi) at 8:30am to start setting
up, and except for a solid bank of clouds hanging low over the hills
between HIO and Scappoose, the local weather wasn't that bad. Most of
the low clouds were gone by 10:00, and although there was overcast at
6000 and a few light rain showers, the gig went pretty well. Rain and
muck did move in by 4:00pm but by that time most people had left.
There were about 25 RVs there, plus nearly that many spam cans, and a
lot more people who drove in. Don tells me we sold 200 burgers and an
unknown number of hot dogs, so there were probably 250-300 lunches
served.
Van's contingent flew in in formation, with Van flying the RV-6B, Bill
Benedict in the RV-6T, and Andy Hanna in the RV-4. Mike Seager brought
Van's RV-6, which he gives RV flight instruction in. And Jerry VanGrunsven
flew in in his RV-4.
And of course Don Wentz was there with his immaculate RV-6. In fact his
plane seemed to be everywhere -- it was the model for this year's
T-shirt! He told me he took all kinds of good natured ribbing for that,
and no one would believe him when he told them he didn't even know it
was going to be on the shirt. Well, I can vouch for that. I took some
photos of it a while back and designed the shirt around one of them,
but I never told him about it.
Other people/planes that I recognized were Kefton Black "Blackie" (RV-4),
Jerry Springer (RV-6), Norm Rainey (RV-6A), Steve Johansen (RV-6A), and
Evart Ayres (RV-6).
Since it was national EAA Young Eagles day, there were a lot of rides
given, mostly by Van and crew. Yes, Van himself was actually giving
demo rides, something you don't see very often any more. I gave a
couple of rides in the Citabria, and got a kick out of one kid who was
reluctant to go up in "that old tub" -- he wanted to get into one of
those sleek looking RVs. But once I got him up there and let him take
the stick and get a feel for the thing he was tickled pink. He even
asked me for another ride after we got down.
Van's also had a tent there, selling gift items and handing out
brochures. Judy VanGrunsven shared the tent and was selling her "RV
Flight Bag" wares. And of course there was a "fly-in T-shirt" table,
selling the "Official" Northwest RV Fly-in T-shirts. We came out a bit
fat on the shirts -- I had expected better weather and ordered
accordingly, so I had a lot left over. I'm hoping we can sell enough of
them at builders group meetings to at least break even (PDX locals
take note -- I have LOTS of XLs left, plus a few S, M, and XXL. No
Larges though).
All in all a pretty good fly-in.
Don, how'd it go from your point of view (mostly from 1500')?
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (SOME year I'll fly it in there)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: rivets-n-tail feathers |
>>am now to the point of decision..to countersink or dimple..i think i would
>>perfer to countersink. you who have gone through this, would you please
>>comment..thanks
>
>Countersinking can look slightly better if you are really good at it. But
>dimpling must be done on most surfaces anyway, gives much more consistent
>results unless you are really good with tools, and is stronger in most
>applications. The only reason dimpling ever looks noticeably worse is when you
>use poor dies or not enough pressure.
>
>FKJ
It also makes the structure keep it's alignment better when you are
riveting. The dimples act like "locating pegs", enabling a structure to
assume it's "as-drilled" state after disassembly and reassembly for
priming.
I also like the consistent "look". The 0.025 skins must be dimpled, so
dimpling the 0.032 makes the surface finish of all rivets look similar.
Like Frank, I've found pnuematic squeezing of dimples is not as good as
Avery tool dimpling (there must be more than 2000# of effective pressure
when hit by a hammer).
..... Gil Alexander ..... RV6A ...... nut plate technician (seat pans)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (RE) Instrument Discussion |
>Don,
>Let me get this straight, you plan to fly IFR ("punch through a
>morning layer) using a one axis autopilot (wing leveler) WITH NO
>ARTIFICIAL HORIZON?(!!!)
Before we get too excited, I don't EVER plan to fly IFR, with ANY
combination of instruments, I'm just not qualified, trained, interested,
etc. By 'morning layer' I mean those little things that were ground
fog, you can see the sun thru, maybe 50' thick.... Definitely NOT a
real cloud that you don't know where the tops are.
>Unless I am not understanding what the Navaid Devices wing leveler is
>(does it have a horizon reference?) this sounds increadably
>dangerous. What if the leveler goes out while in the soup, no matter
>how thin? There is a very good chance that any autopilot could "run
>away", if it does it at the wrong time (and Murphy says that is
>exactly when it would happen) you could end up at an unusual attitude
>in the clouds and not know it because you have no reference to check
>it against. (no AI, no gyro HI, no gyro turn and bank) You would
>have no way to tell if you were right side up or in a one G "death
>spiral" until you breakout into granite cumulus.
Again, I don't ever plan to be IFR. BUT, if I had to do it for a very
limited length of time, I don't see THIS gyro being any less/more
reliable than a regular gyro. In 160+ hours of flying my RV, I have
NEVER NEEDED gyros, and they are almost always turned off (I pop the
breaker on my t&b and have a valve in my vacuum system). Based on this
experience, I wonder why I am carrying them around, it SEEMS like in a
pinch (to be avoided at all times) if I HAD to stay level, why not use
THAT gyro instead of an art horiz? That's not much to ask. In
addition, now I would be carrying a piece of equipment that I COULD use
a lot, rather than just use it to fill holes in my panel.
>I agree that a wing leveler would make life quite wonderful (can you
>say "mile high club"), but having worked for an avionics
>manufacturer, I tend not to trust any single instrument any further
>than I have to. All those gyros you want to remove are redundant to
>one another to some degree, so if one fails the others are useful to
>keep the plane greasy side down. In addition, most planes have
>vacuum HI and AI and an electric turn and bank so that all three are
>very unlikely to fail simultaneously. If the wing leveler is an
>electric gyro, what if the electric system fails?
Those are good points, however, they are predicated on the assumption
that I PLAN to go IFR, which I don't. I agree that if someone tends to
push it far enough that they expect to occassionally go IFR, this is not
a good solution. Each person's expected usage of their RV would help
them decide what instruments they need. I was successful at generating
some discussion about pros & cons for different equipment, which, along
with you folks advice/ideas, was what I wanted to do.
>I definatly don't want to flame you, but this sounds foolhardy in
>anything but CAVU weather.
You didn't, you merely over-positioned what I wanted to do, not a
problem.
>Scott Fink
>RV28XXX (don't remember right off the top of my head), rear empenage
>spar done
Thx Scott, now we're helping these guys evaluate how they plan to use
their RVs, and what they may want to include/leave-out of their
panels.
PS - Randall gets first dibs on all my parts, should I decide to make
the switch this winter! :-)
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks |
> Did any of you manage to do these by
>yourself? I have also found that the cradle they show in the book seems to
>get in the way of these holes as well.
I was able to do all the leading edge skins by myself but not the tanks (the
ProSeal that gets on the outside make it too slippery and makes the rivets stick
up too much). I use the non-swivel flush set; seems to work better in curved
areas since you can feel when it it at the right angle to the surface.
>On the subject of tanks, In George O's video, he says to seal the tanks a
>couple of ribs at a time with several days between work sesions. In the
>recent RVator, the Proseal Aliens seem to have just done it all in one
>sitting. Can anyone think of any reason it would be risky to get it all
>over with in one weekend?
I did one tank at a time in one sitting (about 4 hours). Rivet on the filler
flange and the stiffeners with the first batch of Proseal. Then rivet on all the
inner ribs with the next. Then rivet on the outer two ribs. Then rivet on the
rear baffle. The ProSeal is flexible enough that it doesn't come loose as you
work in other areas.
A tip from one of the local builders was to hit very lightly to start to force
out any ProSeal under the rivet head, then use a rocking motion in the curved
ares to get the rivet head to lay down smooth.
Also, letting the ProSeal set up in the clecos doesn't seem to hurt them. They
dont jam up and the excess scrapes itself off with the next few uses.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
>
> I'd also considered a remote compass kit from Century because flying purely
> with a wet magnetic compass was not something I really felt comfortable
> with...still the gyros won out.
>
I too have been wondering about a remote compass. From what I've seen
it's not easy to find a place to install a wet compass in an RV where
it won't be magnetically influenced by radios, etc. In several RVs
I've flown in the whiskey compass is basically useless if the radios
are on. (uh-oh, here comes another "BIG RV PROBLEM" :-} ) I would be
interested in discussion on the best place to mount a wet compass to
avoid such interference.
A lot of people seem to just use the GPS for heading info, which works
great for VFR (on the Sun-N-Fun trip that's all we ever used) but if the
whiskey compass is unreliable then you don't have any backup. (I don't
suppose it's LEGAL either, but that's another issue).
My impression of remote compasses has always been that they are kind of
expensive, but I haven't ever actually priced them.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks (chatter) |
Randall Henderson wrote:
>Do you have some 'ethical' reason for wanting to do them by yourself? I
>wouldn't want to try to do the leading edge rivets by myself if I had
>help available, although I know people who have managed it. Why risk
>denting your LE skins?
I'm just stuborn and independent, I guess. I tried it again and scared
myself by slipping off one of the rivets with the gun. No damage, but an
end to the solo attempt.
>Maybe you can find some poor slob who doesn't know what he's getting
>into and doesn't have an RV to ask return favors on. But then he'd probably
>ask you to help him move someday. :-}
Hmmmm- Honey, can you help me in the garage for just a minute??? Sorry, I
was supposed to look for someone who wouldn't want anything in return :-)
Thanks for the advice. By the way, which Proseal Alien were you. I'm
guessing the clean one holding the camera ;-) (I crack myself up!)
Russell Duffy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: Landing Light (chatter) |
>Then happened to be browsing through the automotive section at the local
>Wal-Mart and there was the exact match (GE Halogen H3-100 for $4.95!!). Also
>Wal-Mart had a fog lamp kit that looked pretty doggone close to the DuckWorth
>lamp. All right Don, fess up, Wal-Mart is your supplier!!!
Close, but not quite... Actually, there are several after market
suppliers that use a similar assembly. Thanks for updating us with your
eventual outcome. As I mentioned, I just finished a new final form for
the lenses that very slightly reduced the radius.
That's DUCKWORKS, not DuckWORTHs!! :-)
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge rivets/Tanks (chatter) |
>
> Thanks for the advice. By the way, which Proseal Alien were you. I'm
> guessing the clean one holding the camera ;-) (I crack myself up!)
>
> Russell Duffy
I'm the one on the left. That's Rion Bourgeois on the right. My wife
Jeanne is the clean one holding the camera. My wife's nice white couch
is the one with the proseal on it. :-( Builder's tip: take proper
precautions before sitting on household furniture during breaks
from prosealing activities.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Remote compasses |
The only 'remote compass' system I've ever played with is the
King KCS-55A slaved HSI. As I recall, it consisted of three components:
- Panel-mounted indicator
- remote-mounted gyro
- flux gate (the flux gate is the magnetic 'compass')
The normal location for the flux gate is in a wingtip.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary <70176.1660(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | License and flight tests! |
I was once told:
There comes a time in the course of every project where you just shoot
the engineers for making changes and build it!
So with out changing Vans Plans or Manual, I am building it! I am now
90% complete with 90% of my time still to spend. (Those that are
flying will know what I mean!)
How about posting some info on getting N numbers (already applied for),
licensing, and fight testing of my RV-6? <;^) Any good books available
to help develop charts, tables, etc. that a FAR 23 certificated aircraft has?
What part (other than flying) did everyone enjoy the most of building their RV?
I enjoyed the fuel tanks the best. <:-) I have now done 2 others beside my
own and repaired one set that were leaking. I have NEVER seen cork gaskets
NOT leak on an aircraft so I ProSealed my access covers on. I have removed
them once since ProSealing because I forgot to tighten a fitting. <<<:-) Still
no leaks at 3 PSI! <:^)
I can lend assistance <<<:-) and a pneumatic PROSEAL gun to anyone at
or near Cable airport (So. California) when they are ready to do their
tanks. (This means you Brian!)
Gary
AKA: JUST DO IT and get it flying!
RV-6 # 20480
Home: 70176.1660(at)COMPUSERVE.COM
Work: GASobek(at)ccgate.hac.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Hobbs switch connection |
OK - where is a good place to connect my Hobb's switch? Can't find a (I
think 1/8" pipe) post to screw it to.
Thanks.
Also, I want to put a 1 channel EGT and CHT on board. What is the
leanest/warmest cylinder(s) on an O-320-E2D?
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | MX-11 transceivers |
TKM MX-11 transceivers are covered by a three year warranty. However, if you
send the unit to TKM for repairs under the warranty, they will ask for a
$50.00 fee to have immediate repair and return of the unit. I had to wait
three weeks and require a phone call from Van's Aircraft to get the unit back
from TKM under their warranty without paying the $50.00 fee. Good luck!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: (RE) Instrument Discussion |
Don
>Before we get too excited, I don't EVER plan to fly IFR, with ANY
>combination of instruments, I'm just not qualified, trained, interested,
>etc. By 'morning layer' I mean those little things that were ground
>fog, you can see the sun thru, maybe 50' thick.... Definitely NOT a
>real cloud that you don't know where the tops are.
>
> >Unless I am not understanding what the Navaid Devices wing leveler
I Called NAVAID this morning to see what their cost and lead time is, cost is
a little more than I expected $1300 and they are 4 weeks behind, I told them
I wanted one here and installed before OSH said they would see what they
could do.
Now to find that CAD disk that has my instrument panal on it and try to move
instruments around to make room for the NAVAID.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Andreas Meyer <meyer(at)hpanis.an.hp.com> |
| Subject: | RV-6 vs. RV-6A ground steering question |
I have just recently come accross the second pilot (from a fairly
small pool of queried pilots) who has had a one sided brake failure
during landing (Cardinal and Long EZ) and it occured to me that such
a failure would be quite dramatic in a 6A with the pivoting nose
wheel steering. Since I have never flown a tail dragger I was
wondering whether the tail wheel is steered with the rudder pedals
or if it's free castering? I believe that I have seen some taildraggers
where the tail wheel was steered with the rudder pedals but I don't
know how it's done on the RV. This could certainly be a convincing
argument in steering :-) somebody towards the RV-6 vs the -6A.
The RV-6 looks better anyway. Another option would be to somehow
attach two brake calipers on each side for a total of 4 calipers and
4 brake cylinders. Since these components are not the lightest in the
world it may not be practical to have such an arrangement but does
anybody know whether this has been done or at least attempted before?
It would also add a fair amount of complexity to the braking system
because I believe you would somehow have to equalize the braking forces
between the calipers.
Andreas Meyer
(Wanna be RV-6? builder)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
>I've heard absolutely terrible reports on the vertical card compasses
>so those aren't a serious consideration.
>
I am considering a vertical card compass - what's the bad info you've received?
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
FORE Systems FAX: (301) 564-4408
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: rivets-n-tail feathers |
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
>Always dimple if you can, especially on the fuselage lower front skin. This
>is much stronger and is less likely to smoke the rivets. If you can't
>dimple both parts, dimple the skin and countersink the structure that it is
>riveted to. Jim Cone, Editor, Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter.
________________________________________________________________________________
unsubscribe please.
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
| From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Seeking owners of completed RV-4 and RV-6 in the Southern California
area. Need to try on both for size, to make a choice before ordering
kit (I am 6'4" and 208 lbs.).
Will compensate with lunch/fuel etc.
Thanks!
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rivets'-n-tail feathers |
JimnJac, I think you are missing the point:
>thanks to all for the input..guess what i need to do is try both methods and
>see what happens..
It doesn't matter what it looks like NOW. What I see on my RV-6, and MANY of
the other ones I look at, are machine countersunk rivets that are working,
cracking the paint, etc. Especially in the area of the firewall/floor
rivets, and the HS stab, at the inboard ends of the spars. So they may look
fine NOW, but in 200 hours, what will they look like THEN?
>jimnjac hillsboro,or.
Add to that all of the other great inputs from the other listers: dimpling
easier to do consistently, dimpling stronger, use good dies, etc....
I recommend dimpling in ALL cases, when at all possible.
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs. RV-6A ground steering question |
IMHO this is no big deal.
1. Complete brake failure on one side should be very rare and come with
considerable warning.
2. Even in the event of complete brake failure you should be able to land
and maintain controllability of the aircraft until it has slowed down to
the point that you can simply roll to a stop and get out and push the thing
off the runway if you have to.
While it is good to think ahead and prepare for all possibilities I
wouldn't make the decision on which version RV to build based on steerable
tailwheel (builder additional cost option on -4 and -6) vs. non-steerable
nosewheel (-6A)...
Pick the one you like and get on with it. If the tailwheel on the -4 or -6
is beyond your pilot ability (now or after instruction) I'd say you better
not strap on a -6A either.
Richard Bibb
-4 almost ready to roll...
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
FORE Systems FAX: (301) 564-4408
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: MX-11 transceivers |
With some of the discussions on these transceivers, one question comes to
mind...
How often do these things get sent for warranty repairs? Is this a
common thing?
- Alan
On Tue, 13 Jun 1995 aol.com!FOYBOY5(at)matronics.com wrote:
> TKM MX-11 transceivers are covered by a three year warranty. However, if you
> send the unit to TKM for repairs under the warranty, they will ask for a
> $50.00 fee to have immediate repair and return of the unit. I had to wait
> three weeks and require a phone call from Van's Aircraft to get the unit back
> from TKM under their warranty without paying the $50.00 fee. Good luck!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
| Subject: | Dimpling feathers |
> Add to that all of the other great inputs from the other listers: dimpling
> easier to do consistently, dimpling stronger, use good dies, etc....
> I recommend dimpling in ALL cases, when at all possible.
> The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
So, what would be the limit in material thickness beyond which
dimpling becomes unworkable?
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
For the person in South East Pennsylvania looking for other RV builders,
Contact:
Jerry Walker
215-675-2559
JERRYWALKER(at)DELPHI.COM
OR
Marty Cooke
215-822-2678
We are building two RV-6s and would be glad to show you what we've done.
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v2.009 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | reply - rivets n tailfeathers |
I dimpled all my tail skins and am just finishing the wings. I dimpled all
the external skins. Some other builders in the Dallas area have tried
counterskinking, results were not consistent. I am very pleased with
dimpled results. Tom Lewis - RV6A
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: aol.com!JIMNJAC(at)matronics.com
am now to the point of decision..to countersink or dimple..i think i would
perfer to countersink. you who have gone through this, would you please
comment..thanks
jimnjac rv-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rivets-n-tail feathers |
hey..if dimples were good enough for shirley temple..then they are good
enough for me..again thanks for the advice both pro and con..im dusting off
my avery tool and gitin' to work..
jimnjac hillsboro, or. rv-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re(2): Instrument discussion |
> Ken wrote:
>
> I'd also considered a remote compass kit from Century because flying purely
> with a wet magnetic compass was not something I really felt comfortable
> with...still the gyros won out.
Steve wrote:
>Ken,
>Tell me more about the remote compass kit.
Actually, I don't know much more than what's on the Century catalog.They have
several different versions, either fixed dial with a moving pointer or a servo
driven dial that looks just like a regular gyro.There are three pieces to the
kit, a display head, a remote transmitter and an inverter. It also comes in 2
or 3 inch.Total price at Century is $385, so its not cheap (although much
cheaper than a new one or a gyro plus vacuum pump).
If you don't have the Century catalog, its worth a phone call to them at (316)
683 7571 or fax (316) 522 7694...they have an 800 number too (800) 733 0116.
Ken RV6-A
Just trying to figure out how to connect the mixture arm on my Bendix.....
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimpling feathers |
Beyond .040 it's not much good. I even dimple plate nuts when needed (with
OLD dimple dies, of course!).
dw
> Add to that all of the other great inputs from the other listers: dimpling
> easier to do consistently, dimpling stronger, use good dies, etc....
> I recommend dimpling in ALL cases, when at all possible.
> The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
So, what would be the limit in material thickness beyond which
dimpling becomes unworkable?
| Date: | Jun 14, 1995 |
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: MX-11 transceivers |
>
> With some of the discussions on these transceivers, one question comes to
> mind...
>
> How often do these things get sent for warranty repairs? Is this a
> common thing?
>
> - Alan
>
We installed a TKM MX-11 in our Citabria just over a year ago.
Since then it's been in for warranty repairs twice. I don't know
if this is the norm (hope not), just offering a data point.
I think it took 2-3 weeks to get it back each time.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dimpling feathers |
> So, what would be the limit in material thickness beyond which
> dimpling becomes unworkable?
0.040 dimples nicely with an Avery tool if you use a big enough hammer (16 oz).
That is the thickest skin I have run across. The actual limit may be somewhat
higher.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (technical) |
RV-listers,
After speaking to Bill B. at Vans this morning, I found a major
"gotcha" for those building a -6 with electric flaps and the tip-up canopy.
The electric flap drawings are _definitely_ wrong. Apparently they
were altered about 4-6 months ago, but no change was published in the
RVator, or issued to kit builders. The lead time for the old flap kits
must be about 1 year (about how long I've had my fuselage kit), since they
got 3 calls on this subject this week :^) This must have finally hit the
"error notification limit", and I now expect the change to actually get
into the RVator.
The error is interference of the canopy latch cross-rod with the
electric flap actuator. This cross rod is the 3/4 inch diam. steel tube
that is centered 3.063 inches below the longerons, and 0.5 inches ahead of
bulkhead F-605. If you have already built the electric flap drive assembly
(as I have) per the electric flap prints, then you _will_ have a problem.
If it's not yet built, then the fix is to move the top of the EF-604
channel back 1/2 inch where it attaches to the center of the F-605 upper
crosspiece (F-605F). This might still get you into trouble with the flap
control arm hitting this EF-604 channel near the mid-point of the flap
motion. My tolerances would not allow this to be a complete fix. Careful
checking is required.
Moving the canopy latch cross rod is tricky, since the seats backs
(in their usual rear-most position) will interfere if it's moved forward or
up too much. Other fixes might involve modifying the canopy latch
cross-rod with shorter "latch fingers", making the cross-rod's diameter
smaller, or cutting away the EF-604 channel (this would look ugly though).
I'm not yet sure what my fix will be, as all of my flap actuator and mount
parts are completed and ready for priming.
Those of you with the slider canopy don't have this problem.
If you are building, or know someone who is, a RV6 fuselage with
electric flaps and a tip-up canopy, then be very careful, and make your own
drawings and measurements before fitting the electric flap drive assembly
if your canopy is not yet installed.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ..... scratching my head ...
PS. I also found out that the #10 nutplates included in the Electric Flap
Kit were there just to confuse the builder, and are not now shipped :^)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ross Mickey <102173.3714(at)compuserve.com> |
Please sign me up for the RV List. My address is 102173.3714(at)compuserve.com.
Any help you can give me using this system would also be apprciated. I'm
building a 6-A.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Cork Gaskets and ProSeal |
---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM at SMTPGATE
Date: 6/14/95 7:27AM
Subject: Gaskets!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randy Thorne (N144RS) first installed the cork gasket with nothing
and it failed
the pressure test. (leaked) He then used sealant (unknown which one) on the
gasket. It passed the pressure test but when investigating fuel leaks after 3
hours of flight, found that it was "seeping" (defined per FAA AC 65-9A). At
that time it was removed and ProSealed shut.
Dave Hansen (N416DH) has had many fuel leaks. His gaskets also leaked.
Bill Johnson tried using the cork gaskets on his RV-4 and they failed the
pressure test also.
I was based at Chino for 3 years. When there (1989) the two RV-4 that were
flying both Prosealed their covers on. One pilot/builder was a retired
aerospace worker (built aircraft) and the other was an A&P who worked for
Douglas on the MD-11.
Fuel senders used in T-18 that are on the top of the tank, do not
appear to have
a problem. But then, they are not on the side of the tank.
My fuel tanks were sealed 5 years ago. The input at that time was from 4 RV
builders that were flying and the two IA's that would inspect my work.
Why take the chance with gaskets/fuel lube when you are already using
proseal!
It is not difficult to remove the cover once on.
Gary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (techni |
I noticed that is was a little close, but was able to install everything &
it works fine, even not knowing there was a problem.
Just lucky I guess...
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: egt/cht sensor |
________________________________________________________________________________
put one sensor for EGT on your engine, put it on #1 cylinder. If you only
put one sensor for CHT on your engine, put it on #3 cylinder. ... those are
the hottest.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Cork Gaskets and ProSeal |
Good argument against cork gaskets. I've heard some good arguments for
NOT using proseal though. And I still haven't seen any "hard data" on
Buna-N gaskets/fuel lube. The word is that Buna-N rubber is impervious
to av-fuel and won't deteriorate, but I wonder if you'll be able to
get as good a seal using gasket/fuel lube, with NO seepage.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 14:09:00 PDT
> From: Frank K Justice <ccm.ssd.intel.com!Frank_K_Justice(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Cork Gaskets and ProSeal
>
> ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
> From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM at SMTPGATE
> Date: 6/14/95 7:27AM
> To: Frank K Justice at CO1CCM1
> Subject: Gaskets!
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Randy Thorne (N144RS) first installed the cork gasket with nothing
> and it failed
> the pressure test. (leaked) He then used sealant (unknown which one) on the
> gasket. It passed the pressure test but when investigating fuel leaks after
3
> hours of flight, found that it was "seeping" (defined per FAA AC 65-9A). At
> that time it was removed and ProSealed shut.
>
> Dave Hansen (N416DH) has had many fuel leaks. His gaskets also leaked.
>
> Bill Johnson tried using the cork gaskets on his RV-4 and they failed the
> pressure test also.
>
> I was based at Chino for 3 years. When there (1989) the two RV-4 that were
> flying both Prosealed their covers on. One pilot/builder was a retired
> aerospace worker (built aircraft) and the other was an A&P who worked for
> Douglas on the MD-11.
>
> Fuel senders used in T-18 that are on the top of the tank, do not
> appear to have
> a problem. But then, they are not on the side of the tank.
>
> My fuel tanks were sealed 5 years ago. The input at that time was from 4 RV
> builders that were flying and the two IA's that would inspect my work.
>
> Why take the chance with gaskets/fuel lube when you are already using
> proseal!
> It is not difficult to remove the cover once on.
>
> Gary
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cork Gaskets and ProSeal |
Fuel "lube". Does that mean anything to you guys? "Lube", not Fuel
"glue". It is only for use similar to teflon tape: It lubricates and
fills 'threads', it doesn't glue things shut. By the way, don't use it
too liberally, I found many little 'globs' of it blocking my gascolator
screen, and I still have some of the 'thimbleful' left that was given me
by an A/P.
I prosealed-on my senders/inspection covers, everything, and have no
leaks yet (knock wood). I hope I never have to get back in there tho.
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
>Why take the chance with gaskets/fuel lube when you are already using
>proseal!
>It is not difficult to remove the cover once on.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cork Gaskets and ProSeal |
>Why take the chance with gaskets/fuel lube when you are already using
>proseal!
>It is not difficult to remove the cover once on.
>
>Gary
I have to agree, I think proSeal is the only way to go, I put my covers on
with proSeal 7 years ago and have not had a leak in the six years I have been
flying, on the other hand I put my fuel gauge senders on with a cork gasket
and while they are not leaking you can see fuel dye all around the base of
the senders.
Just as a after thought I also sloshed my tanks and have not experienced any
peeling away of the sloshing compound.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14.1989
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (technical) |
I definitely ran into this problem when installing the electric flaps on my
6-A which already had the canopy installed. I was actually quite miffed that
it interfered and there was no warning or comment in any of the instructions
or ads.
Thanks for the warning on the intereference during the arm movement. I haven't
cycled it yet so don't really know if there's a problem but will check ASAP.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ai105(at)detroit.freenet.org (Jack Haviland) |
| Subject: | Michigan RV Fly-in |
The Michigan Wing of Van's Air Force will be meeting on June 12th
at Dalton's Airfield (3DA) 7 nm northwest of Flint's Bishop
International. The official starting time is noon but the EAA
building will be open for early arrivals. Hope some of you can
make it. I'd be glad to answer any questions via e-mail or phone
810-629-1870.
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
>
> I heard last week during some 'hangar flying' that the FlyBuddy GPS unit
> was making a comeback. Is that true? In any case, know where I might
> buy one?
>
This is true -- should be available from just about any Apollo/IImorrow
dealer. I think that they were losing market share at the low end, and
the Flybuddy has the (dubious) advantage of being plug compatable with
the Flybuddy Loran (except for the antenna of course). In my opinion,
the Flybuddy low class LCD display, but is basically a good VFR unit, and
a major plus is that it is available with a PCMCIA (like) data card.
At the low end I prefer the Apollo 360. Again a difficult LCD display,
but excellent man machine interface -- as in easy to get around the
functions; and the navigation displays are really well thought out. A
really great VFR GPS -- but we have trouble selling them -- I guess
the round display isn't too attractive to most pilots.
The company airplane is a C172 with a Garmin GPS155. Very fast
processor, excellent display. My only complaint is the number of
keystrokes I have to enter to find some data. Better suited for flying
airways.
I have other opinions about low end GPS systems if anyone wants to
talk off line. (I have recently left the employ of a University
Computing Department and am now working in a 10 man Avionics Shop, so
I get to see the toys and literature, etc...)
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Just a minor point, but I would be interested to know if anybody else
has had this problem.
I haven't yet completed fabricating my (RV-4) wing spars, but I
decided to go ahead and position and drill the nose ribs while waiting
for a friends bandsaw. I clamped the two spar assemblies together edge
to edge, forward surface up, with the bar stock bolted and clamped
into position. I then started clamping nose ribs into position using
the prints. I paid little attention to the pre-drilled holes in the
spar. The first ribs I actually drilled were the third nose ribs from
the tips. They are the first ones to straddle some bar stock.
Position was determined using a steel rule and measuring from the root
of the spar (again using the drawing). After drilling 3/32 holes for
clecoes, I began thinking about the angle stock bracket that is
rivited to the rib and bolted to the spar. The holes in the
pre-drilled spar were not center on the angle stock and were too close
to the angle portion of the bracket. I ended up relocating the rib
about 1/8" (maybe 3/16") toward the root. From then on I used the
pre-drilled holes in the Spar to verify the exact position of the ribs
before drilling. All went well from then on. Has anyone else noticed
this?
I found that the holes in the pre-drilled spar were well done, and
consistant, but off slightly from the drawings. This turned out not to
be a big deal, but I wonder if this is a factor to -6 builders who have
pre-punched skins? (i.e. not so easy to move a rib along)
Another minor complaint is that (for my kit) the drawing modification
from RVator of a few months back showing the positions of the new
'notched' ribs had several errors, and part numbers did not match the
kit. I mentioned this to Vans while taking inventory of my kit, and
thay acknowledged it. I actually did reciieve the correct qtys of each
part and it was pretty easy to figure out where the errors were in the
drawing. My wing kit was new in Feb/95. (The new notched ribs with
pre-punched lightning holes are great.)
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
Please remove my name from the RV list.
Thank you.
D. J. Nelson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Capacitance fuel probes |
I just got off the phone with the folks at Electronics International
concerning their capacitance probes for their fuel guages.
The bottom line is that the E.I. probes (part number P300-C) are
not usable for application in an RV.
My intent was mount the probe in its normal position, have the
probe's tube go into the tank an inch or so, make a 90 decree bend,
go down to the bottom of the tank, make an approximately 120
degree bend and then go from bottom inboard of the tank to
top outboard end. The Skysports probe that I am familiar
with has a flexible aluminum sheath that makes being it no problem.
The E.I. probe, I've discovered, is sheathed in 3/4 inch think-
walled aluminum tubing, and it's impossible to bend. It would
therefore be impossible to mount the probe in such a way as to
provide accurate readings.
E.I. (Electronics International) has a different model of their
guage that works with the Stewart Warner senders, and Art at E.I.
recommended this combination, as their gauge takes all of the non-
linearity out of the sender.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Pos'n |
Text item:
>The holes in the
>pre-drilled spar were not center on the angle stock and were too close
>to the angle portion of the bracket. I ended up relocating the rib
>about 1/8" (maybe 3/16") toward the root. From then on I used the
>pre-drilled holes in the Spar to verify the exact position of the ribs
>before drilling. All went well from then on. Has anyone else noticed
>this?
Everybody except the people who are getting predrilled RV-6(A) wing skins. The
errors in the spar hole positions were corrected coincident with the changeover
to this. The accepted tecnique is to mark the hole locations out to the side of
the flange strips, line up the angle with the marks, clamp everything together,
and drill. They had to fix the errors in the spar so the holes in the skins
would line up properly, and from what I hear the bolt holes come out OK on the
angles now.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
From: sfu.ca!bill(at)matronics.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 2:14:58 PDT
Subject: Wing Rib Pos'n
(8.6.11/SFU-2.6H)
)
I-4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Pos'n |
Bill:
Yes this problem has been around since they started pre-drilling the
spars, but is alleged to have been corrected with the advent of
pre-punched skins. I did what you described -- located the ribs
relative to the bolt holes, which resulted in some of them ending
up as much as 1/8" off of the station lines. There is no problem
with doing this if you don't have pre-punched skins.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> Just a minor point, but I would be interested to know if anybody else
> has had this problem.
>
> I haven't yet completed fabricating my (RV-4) wing spars, but I
> decided to go ahead and position and drill the nose ribs while waiting
> for a friends bandsaw. I clamped the two spar assemblies together edge
> to edge, forward surface up, with the bar stock bolted and clamped
> into position. I then started clamping nose ribs into position using
> the prints. I paid little attention to the pre-drilled holes in the
> spar. The first ribs I actually drilled were the third nose ribs from
> the tips. They are the first ones to straddle some bar stock.
> Position was determined using a steel rule and measuring from the root
> of the spar (again using the drawing). After drilling 3/32 holes for
> clecoes, I began thinking about the angle stock bracket that is
> rivited to the rib and bolted to the spar. The holes in the
> pre-drilled spar were not center on the angle stock and were too close
> to the angle portion of the bracket. I ended up relocating the rib
> about 1/8" (maybe 3/16") toward the root. From then on I used the
> pre-drilled holes in the Spar to verify the exact position of the ribs
> before drilling. All went well from then on. Has anyone else noticed
> this?
>
> I found that the holes in the pre-drilled spar were well done, and
> consistant, but off slightly from the drawings. This turned out not to
> be a big deal, but I wonder if this is a factor to -6 builders who have
> pre-punched skins? (i.e. not so easy to move a rib along)
>
> Another minor complaint is that (for my kit) the drawing modification
> from RVator of a few months back showing the positions of the new
> 'notched' ribs had several errors, and part numbers did not match the
> kit. I mentioned this to Vans while taking inventory of my kit, and
> thay acknowledged it. I actually did reciieve the correct qtys of each
> part and it was pretty easy to figure out where the errors were in the
> drawing. My wing kit was new in Feb/95. (The new notched ribs with
> pre-punched lightning holes are great.)
>
>
> --
> Bill Baines
> Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
> bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
> --
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Pos'n |
The holes in the spar forattaching the rib reinforcing angles
are held to tighter tolerences on spars used with pre-punched
skins.
I have the prepunched skins and any less-than-optimal placement
of the ribs is due more to my slight sloppiness than to the
manufacturing tolerances of the spar.
Nevertheless, when I start my other wing I plan to alter my
assembly sequence to:
1. clamp main spar in jig.
2. align rear spar and clamp in jig.
3. clamp skins to spars
4. clamp reinforcing angles to ribs
5. draw centerlines on rib flanges
6. position ribs so centerlines are visible thru pre-punched holes, clamp
7. drill reinforcing angles.
NOTE: I don't want anybody going off the deep end over this. All
of my rib centerlines are within 1/16 inch of the pre-punched
holes in the wingskins, and that is WELL within allowable tolerances.
And keep in mind that I use a VERY fine-tipped felt pen to mark
my centerlines on the rib flanges (In the Orndorff video, it looks
like George's centerlines are about 1/8 inch wide!)
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
>
> Bill:
> Yes this problem has been around since they started pre-drilling the
> spars, but is alleged to have been corrected with the advent of
> pre-punched skins. I did what you described -- located the ribs
> relative to the bolt holes, which resulted in some of them ending
> up as much as 1/8" off of the station lines. There is no problem
> with doing this if you don't have pre-punched skins.
>
> Randall Henderson
When I started building my empennage, I thought that
the greatest challenge in building my RV was going to
be in developing technical skills (riveting, drilling,
etc).
It was much later that I came to the realization that
the real challenge was in learning to read and interpret
the plans so I could make statements like:
"It won't matter that these spar holes are
1/8 inch off"
And I'm not all the way there yet, either!
| Date: | Jun 15, 1995 |
| From: | Michelle J Tinckler <mjt(at)unixg.ubc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Rib Pos'n |
Hi Bill. I had same problem with measurement discrepancies, but just went
with the centre lines matched to bolt holes. I think you will see that
Van mentions that from time to time manufacturing differences will cause
this to happen in other areas as well. It all works out OK if you check
before you drill. Wish I had learned that early. Good Luck. Austin
Tinckler, Vancouver, B.C...RV-6.
On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
> Bill:
> Yes this problem has been around since they started pre-drilling the
> spars, but is alleged to have been corrected with the advent of
> pre-punched skins. I did what you described -- located the ribs
> relative to the bolt holes, which resulted in some of them ending
> up as much as 1/8" off of the station lines. There is no problem
> with doing this if you don't have pre-punched skins.
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
> >
> > Just a minor point, but I would be interested to know if anybody else
> > has had this problem.
> >
> > I haven't yet completed fabricating my (RV-4) wing spars, but I
> > decided to go ahead and position and drill the nose ribs while waiting
> > for a friends bandsaw. I clamped the two spar assemblies together edge
> > to edge, forward surface up, with the bar stock bolted and clamped
> > into position. I then started clamping nose ribs into position using
> > the prints. I paid little attention to the pre-drilled holes in the
> > spar. The first ribs I actually drilled were the third nose ribs from
> > the tips. They are the first ones to straddle some bar stock.
> > Position was determined using a steel rule and measuring from the root
> > of the spar (again using the drawing). After drilling 3/32 holes for
> > clecoes, I began thinking about the angle stock bracket that is
> > rivited to the rib and bolted to the spar. The holes in the
> > pre-drilled spar were not center on the angle stock and were too close
> > to the angle portion of the bracket. I ended up relocating the rib
> > about 1/8" (maybe 3/16") toward the root. From then on I used the
> > pre-drilled holes in the Spar to verify the exact position of the ribs
> > before drilling. All went well from then on. Has anyone else noticed
> > this?
> >
> > I found that the holes in the pre-drilled spar were well done, and
> > consistant, but off slightly from the drawings. This turned out not to
> > be a big deal, but I wonder if this is a factor to -6 builders who have
> > pre-punched skins? (i.e. not so easy to move a rib along)
> >
> > Another minor complaint is that (for my kit) the drawing modification
> > from RVator of a few months back showing the positions of the new
> > 'notched' ribs had several errors, and part numbers did not match the
> > kit. I mentioned this to Vans while taking inventory of my kit, and
> > thay acknowledged it. I actually did reciieve the correct qtys of each
> > part and it was pretty easy to figure out where the errors were in the
> > drawing. My wing kit was new in Feb/95. (The new notched ribs with
> > pre-punched lightning holes are great.)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bill Baines
> > Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
> > bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
> > --
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Lots of questions |
Sorry, folks. Lots more questions but no answers.
1. People who have their planes flying: did you keep track of the hours?
How long?
2. The pre-built spar -- what do people think about it?
3. For the flyers again -- could this airplane be used for my wife's
primary training? I'm building a 6A. I'm concerned about the speed
and sensitivity. Or would this just be a major mistake, and she
should learn in a 152 like I did?
4. If the eventual answer to #3 is "152" rather than "6A", is there
any reason I need brakes on the right side?
5. No one seems to use their serial number for the N number. Is this
considered gauche, would the number already be used by a prior
airplane, or do people just not think it'd be handy to have
them match?
My Avery tools arrived today, says my wife. I haven't even seen them
yet. She's threatening to hold them hostage! However, not to worry.
I understand she couldn't lift the box. Tee hee.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Reference Question |
Does anyone know where I can find the strength specifications for
common AN, MS, and NAS Hardware?
I am mainly interested in 'AD' rivets, AN Bolts, and AN/MS machine
screws.
I found a partial reference for rivets in AC65-15A (pg 128,129), but
cannot find anything for machine screws.
Any leads appreciated...
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | eholling(at)whale.st.usm.edu (Eric Hitt Hollingsworth) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 vs. RV-6A ground steering question |
Always remember.......
Two wrongs don't make a right; but three lefts do!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gregg L. Sloan" <gsloan(at)CapAccess.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Reference Question |
Bill, there is an excellent book that has some reprints of AN bolt specs
among other good information about fasteners. This book has just about
everything you could want to know about fasteners. It is geared primarily
to race car construction but is applicable to airplane construction as
well. I highly recommend it if, like me, your the kind of person that has
some odd desire to read mil specs (although this book is much easier to
read). No, not trying to sell the book, I just think it's a good reference.
Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook. By Carroll Smith. Published
by Motorbooks International, 1990. $17.95. Call 1 (800) 826-6600 to order the
book and get catalog.
Chapters include: Characteristics of metals; Stress, strain, load and
fatigue; Thread physics; Bolt and bolted joints; Bolt specifics; Female
threads; Locking devices; Washers and miscellaneous fasteners; Rivets
and riveting; High performance plumbing; Future trends in fastening.
Gregg, RV6A #22425
On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 sfu.ca!bill(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Does anyone know where I can find the strength specifications for
> common AN, MS, and NAS Hardware?
>
> I am mainly interested in 'AD' rivets, AN Bolts, and AN/MS machine
> screws.
>
> I found a partial reference for rivets in AC65-15A (pg 128,129), but
> cannot find anything for machine screws.
>
> Any leads appreciated...
>
> --
> Bill Baines
> Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
> bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
> --
Gregg Sloan_____gsloan(at)capaccess.org_____Herndon, Virginia__USA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | eyeball vent source sought |
Anyone have a good source for those eyeball type vents? Wick's used to
have a nice, plastic model (much like in the overheads of most airliners
these days) for $25 each but it is no longer available. Aircraft Spruce
has the aluminum ones.
If someone makes them for the airlines I should be able to buy them
somewhere but none of my aviation toy sources seem to carry them. Strange
as they are about 1/2 the price of the aluminum ones and, at least as far
as the picture in Wick's catalog goes, smaller to mount as well.
I don't like the Whisperflo units (too big) but am frustrated at not being
able to find what I want.
Help.
RB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Reference Question |
RE>Reference Question 6/16/95 8:58 AM
there are two books you may want to own...
one is the "Aircraft Standards Handbook" it is a 'textbook' for A&P school.
and the other book is the "Machinists Handbook".
Both have hardware sections.
Doug Miner~
--------------------------------------
Date: 6/15/95 10:52 PM
From: sfu.ca!bill(at)matronics.COM
Does anyone know where I can find the strength specifications for
common AN, MS, and NAS Hardware?
I am mainly interested in 'AD' rivets, AN Bolts, and AN/MS machine
screws.
I found a partial reference for rivets in AC65-15A (pg 128,129), but
cannot find anything for machine screws.
Any leads appreciated...
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Subject: Reference Question
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 20:49:18 PDT
From: sfu.ca!bill(at)matronics.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (techni |
Had a talk with Bill Benedict last night about this problem. They have
never done a full tolerance analysis on the plans and also do not have
tight tolerances imposed on the parts they buy or make for the kits. To
do so would result in a signicant one-time expense and higher kit prices
to fix things the builders can usually handle for themselves fairly
easily. Maybe they will do it some day; they are obviously already
making a real effort in other areas to improve our lives (such as the
prepunched wing skins and all the error-corrections they do send us in
the RVator). The result is that some things sometimes don't fit together
like you would think that they should.
Van's has the same trouble I do in trying to give builders a
trouble-free adventure; if a problem doesn't bite you then you don't
know it exists until somebody else gets bit and complains. In this case
the first airplanes they built with the electric flaps went together
without any problem. They normally get only two or three calls a year
from builders experiencing the problem; it just happened that they got
three or four calls in one week. I had the same trouble pattern myself
when I had my own manufacturing operation building enclosures and
assembling electronic equipment; one day a batch of part is run off that
is a little different from the usual, sometimes still within specs, and
suddenly things don't fit together. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT RV BUILDERS
MUST BE PREPARED FOR EVERY DAY. Maybe because I have had so much
experience in more controlled environments and still seen this happen, I
just consider it an everyday part of building an RV.
My advice to all builders to avoid almost all problems with fitting
things together is:
Measure each part of the kit before you start trimming or drilling it.
If possible put it in place as a check before and during trimming; where
the drawings give trimming dimensions think of them as a guide only.
Try to figure out all of the pieces that will go together in a
particular area and clamp them in place before trimming or drilling so
you will see interferences before you are stuck with them.
Always observe the notes on the drawings about trim or drill in
assembly.
And never, never rivet anything until you absolutely have to.
To finish up with the electric flap-tip up canopy problem, Bill says try
to put all all of the pieces in place to start; the seatback, the canopy
latch crossarm, the flap actuator weldment, the flap motor, and the
channel that holds the motor. Visualize what can interfere. In this cas
it is as Gil described; the canopy latch crossarm hits the upright
channel. Then visualize what might get worse if you move something to
get rid of the interference. In this case if you move the channel a
little toward the rear the flap actuator arm might hit it as it moves to
the upper position; if you move the canopy latch arm upward the seatback
in its rear-most position might hit it and you would also have to change
the position of the catch on the canopy upward to match. Usually the
best choice is to trim something a little and you may be able to do that
here.
Or yours may fit together with no problem. Whether or not they do could
depend on things that happened much earlier, like did you get the
bulkhead exactly vertical in the jig four months ago and did you verify
that the seat ribs were the right length. There are too many variables.
One purpose of my instructions is to bring to light areas like this
where you might have problems, but I also get bit occasionally by my
watchdog Randall. The last time was in not figuring that the flap bottom
skins might not be bent exactly right, resulting in the spar not being
where it should be after you have already drilled the holes for it in
the skin. At least he didn't bug me to buy him a new skin.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Capacitance fuel probes |
RE>Capacitance fuel probes 6/15/95 1:41 PM
That sounds like a system that I did some R&D on about 5 years ago at Phlogiston...
but I put the tube in from the outboard rib. I made some measurements and
milled a fitting, mounted it to the rib....it worked...and is flying in some
wings in KS or CA or VA I think... I took a series of pictures so I could think
it through if someone wants to see them I could upload them somewhere...
Doug~
--------------------------------------
Date: 6/15/95 12:25 PM
From: David A. Barnhart
I just got off the phone with the folks at Electronics International
concerning their capacitance probes for their fuel guages.
The bottom line is that the E.I. probes (part number P300-C) are
not usable for application in an RV.
My intent was mount the probe in its normal position, have the
probe's tube go into the tank an inch or so, make a 90 decree bend,
go down to the bottom of the tank, make an approximately 120
degree bend and then go from bottom inboard of the tank to
top outboard end. The Skysports probe that I am familiar
with has a flexible aluminum sheath that makes being it no problem.
The E.I. probe, I've discovered, is sheathed in 3/4 inch think-
walled aluminum tubing, and it's impossible to bend. It would
therefore be impossible to mount the probe in such a way as to
provide accurate readings.
E.I. (Electronics International) has a different model of their
guage that works with the Stewart Warner senders, and Art at E.I.
recommended this combination, as their gauge takes all of the non-
linearity out of the sender.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "David A. Barnhart" <crl.com!barnhart(at)matronics.COM>
Subject: Capacitance fuel probes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Bysinger <john.bysinger(at)mccaw.com> |
| Subject: | FW: Reference Question |
Bill,
A good place to start would be an engineering handbook, generally found in
any machine shop, and several are in most libraries. If you know any
college students studying engineering, Machine Elements textbooks are great
references for this sort of information. (They generally have smaller
tables but they are great in that they tell you what the specs mean!)
John Bysinger
(helping my mother build an RV-4) Prepping the wing spar for assebly . . .
. Wing jig waiting to be used . . . .
Surrey? Do you ever make it down for the Arlington Fly-Ins?
_________
Does anyone know where I can find the strength specifications for
common AN, MS, and NAS Hardware?
I am mainly interested in 'AD' rivets, AN Bolts, and AN/MS machine
screws.
I found a partial reference for rivets in AC65-15A (pg 128,129), but
cannot find anything for machine screws.
Any leads appreciated...
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Re: Lots of questions |
>Sorry, folks. Lots more questions but no answers.
>
>
> The pre-built spar -- what do people think about it?
>
I bought prebuilt spar and tanks (from London and Assoc).
I did it as a time saver (not enough hours in the day).
donmack (rv6-a, wing covering)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Lots of questions -Reply |
showpg!jpl(at)matronics.com
>>> Joe Larson
06/15/95
07:09pm >>>
Sorry, folks. Lots more questions but no
answers.
1. People who have their planes flying: did
you keep track of the hours?
How long?
2. The pre-built spar -- what do people
think about it?
JS>I think my prebuilt spar is beautiful
and I am very glad I bought it. Time is
more rare than money for me right now.
3. For the flyers again -- could this
airplane be used for my wife's
primary training? I'm building a 6A.
I'm concerned about the speed
and sensitivity. Or would this just be
a major mistake, and she
should learn in a 152 like I did?
4. If the eventual answer to #3 is "152"
rather than "6A", is there
any reason I need brakes on the right
side?
JS> I have a friend who put them in and
said he would not do it again. More weight
complexity and little use. But then his
wife doesn't fly much with him.
5. No one seems to use their serial number
for the N number. Is this
considered gauche, would the number
already be used by a prior
airplane, or do people just not think
it'd be handy to have
them match?
JS>The number may well be used already.
My Avery tools arrived today, says my wife.
I haven't even seen them yet. She's
threatening to hold them hostage! However,
not to worry.
I understand she couldn't lift the box.
Tee hee.
-Joe
-- Joe Larson
jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426
Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Eric Barnes <ebarnes(at)AGSM.UCLA.EDU> |
Please remove my name from the RV mailing list
Thank you,
Eric Barnes
(Back in 2 months)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Fuel tank access plates |
Gentlemen & RV-4 builders in particular:
I am installing the fuel tank access covers at the moment and am a little
confused. Frank Justice's instructions specify that the T-407 reinforcing ring
is on the inside of the tank. However on drawing 17 of the RV-4 plans it
depicts the reinforcing ring on the outside of the tank. This configuration
would require the reinforcing ring to be filed flat on the edge butting up
against the center hydroformed "strengthener".
Is there a difference between the RV-4 and RV-6 configuration or does it really
matter? Seems like things will fit better with the ring on the inside.
Thanks again,
Doug
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | N-number registration info and certification |
There have been some questions on how to get a N-number and homebuilt
certification.
The FAA has an Advisory circular number 20-27D on the subject of
"Certification and Operation of Amateur-Built Aircraft".
This covers how to get a N number and what documents and procedures
you need to register your homebuilt.
Check with your local FAA office as they may have a copy.
I picked it up at Oshkosh at the FAA building.
You should be able to order it from
Department of Transportation
Utilization and Atorage Section
M-443.2
Washington, DC 20590
This address is in a booklett called "Guide to Federal Aviation Administration
Publications", mine is dated May 1990 and is number FAA-APA-PG-12.
The AC 20-27D describes how to get a N number which I describe below:
You can call the FAA Registration branch at
phone # is 405-954-3116
and ask if your desired N number is in use already. They will usually answer
for 2 or 3 N numbers before they tell you to get lost.
Ofcourse, this does not mean the number will still be avail. when you send in
your request. That is why you have to send in several choices for a N number.
To reserver your N number, send something like the form below to:
The address is FAA A/C Registry
PO BOX 25504
Oklahoma City, OK 73125.
The amount to resurve a N number is currently $10.00
The FORM is as follows:
Date
FAA Aircraft Registry
PO BOX 25504
Oklahoma City, OK 73125
Hi,
This is a request for a United States identification number
assignment for my home-built aircraft.
Aircraft Description:
Make ____RV-4____; Type ___Airplane_____, Model ___RV-4___
Serial Number ___ your sn____.
This Aircraft has not been previously registered anywhere.
(FAR section 47.15)
____ Normal Request - $5.00 (fee attached)
__X__ Special Registration Number Request - ($10.00 fee attached)
CHOICES:
1st 5555R
2nd 5554R
3rd 777FT
4th 200FT
5th 300FT (Put your number choices in priority order)
________________________
Signature
and Return address
End of form.
Note that there are rules about N numbers.
It can not start with the letters O or I.
It may not exceed 5 symbols following the N
The symbols may be all numbers (N10000) , one to four numbers and a suffex
letter, (N1000U) one to three numbers and two suffix letters (N100AB)
The first zero (0) must be preceeded by a number 1-9.
So, I could not get a N number like N0TY or NOOP or NOT
The N number N1CE was already taken. So I settled for N95HD.
They will respond in 4 to 6 weeks with your N number.
It is reserved for 1 year and can be renewed (they will send you a reminder)
or when you send in your registration that will offically bind the number
to your AC.
Herman
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ross Mickey <102173.3714(at)compuserve.com> |
My name is Ross Mickey. I live in Eugene, Oregon where there are between 6 and
12 RV's (maybe more) being built or are flying. I am just finishing the wings
on my RV6-A. I chose to use manual elevator and aileron trim and electric
flaps. Standard fuel tanks. I have yet to decide on an engine/prop but money
will dictate. I will be watching the auto-conversion technology over the next
year or so while I build the fuselage.
I am 44 years old, married with a 7 year old son and 2 year old daughter. I
average 10 hours per week on the project which I started Nov 1994.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (update) |
Frank, and RV-listers,
... I agree with your comments, however, my simple scale drawing in
MacDrawPro shows the flap channel (actually EF-601) going straight through
the center of the flap cross tube, exactly the way my parts fitted. The
0.5 inch rearward fix is not even possible with the EF-601/F-605 bracket
supplied in my kit. However, fabricating a new one to a different size is
quite easy. In this particular case, I would postulate that all of our
ships ARE quite similar in dimensions. This whole area is in-between the
main spar bulkhead and the aft spar bulkhead, and I bet most RV6s are with
0.125 or better within this region - or the wings won't fit!, and we are
talking about clearance around a 3/4 inch diam. tube.
My problem, and that of others, is that I haven't bought the
finishing kit yet (too large a box), and I don't even have the parts Frank
refers to.
What bothers me the most is that I was told that the prints were
changed 4-6 months ago, but nothing was published in the RVator. I, and
many others I've talked to, rely on this publication for timely updates to
the plans.
... (10 minute break) ...
I just finished speaking to Bill Benedict, and he said this changes
publication policy is true for the main plans, but not for the optional
parts drawings. They now realize that this may be a flaw in their system,
and hopefully it will be addressed soon. A corrected flap installation
will be detailed in the next RVator :^) Apparently this affects about 20%
of RV6 builders (approx. 50% electric flaps, 40% tip-up canopy), which is
still quite a sizeable number.
The tolerances in this area are interesting, and there is more room
than I first thought if the seat back "corrugations" are the actual stop
against F-605 (which seems to be very different from ship to ship). This
creates some clearance space, and allows shimming the latch cross-bar
forward. The top of the flap drive can also be shaved down by almost 0.25
inches in my case (the U-shaped steel portion that connects to the drive
motor and replaces the manual handle) - which allows the EF-601 channel to
be moved further back.
With both of these fixes, and making sure that the seat backs (not
yet built) rest on their corrugations, and a small amount of shimming of
the latch cross-bar mounts, I believe my problem will be solved :^) Van
is shipping me new EF-607 side panels, which have to be re-made :^( to
fit the 0.5 inch rearward movement I will make to the top of the EF-601
channel. As Frank mentions, this whole thing brings up interesting
tolerance questions that excite the local manufacturing engineers (one is a
RV4 builder).
I will report my final solution later (after a planned vacation) ...
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
*** Franks response to my original e-mail ****
>Had a talk with Bill Benedict last night about this problem. They have
>never done a full tolerance analysis on the plans and also do not have
>tight tolerances imposed on the parts they buy or make for the kits. To
>do so would result in a signicant one-time expense and higher kit prices
>to fix things the builders can usually handle for themselves fairly
>easily. Maybe they will do it some day; they are obviously already
>making a real effort in other areas to improve our lives (such as the
>prepunched wing skins and all the error-corrections they do send us in
>the RVator). The result is that some things sometimes don't fit together
>like you would think that they should.
>
>Van's has the same trouble I do in trying to give builders a
>trouble-free adventure; if a problem doesn't bite you then you don't
>know it exists until somebody else gets bit and complains. In this case
>the first airplanes they built with the electric flaps went together
>without any problem. They normally get only two or three calls a year
>from builders experiencing the problem; it just happened that they got
>three or four calls in one week. I had the same trouble pattern myself
>when I had my own manufacturing operation building enclosures and
>assembling electronic equipment; one day a batch of part is run off that
>is a little different from the usual, sometimes still within specs, and
>suddenly things don't fit together. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT RV BUILDERS
>MUST BE PREPARED FOR EVERY DAY. Maybe because I have had so much
>experience in more controlled environments and still seen this happen, I
>just consider it an everyday part of building an RV.
>
>My advice to all builders to avoid almost all problems with fitting
>things together is:
>
>Measure each part of the kit before you start trimming or drilling it.
>
>If possible put it in place as a check before and during trimming; where
>the drawings give trimming dimensions think of them as a guide only.
>
>Try to figure out all of the pieces that will go together in a
>particular area and clamp them in place before trimming or drilling so
>you will see interferences before you are stuck with them.
>
>Always observe the notes on the drawings about trim or drill in
>assembly.
>
>And never, never rivet anything until you absolutely have to.
>
>
>To finish up with the electric flap-tip up canopy problem, Bill says try
>to put all all of the pieces in place to start; the seatback, the canopy
>latch crossarm, the flap actuator weldment, the flap motor, and the
>channel that holds the motor. Visualize what can interfere. In this cas
>it is as Gil described; the canopy latch crossarm hits the upright
>channel. Then visualize what might get worse if you move something to
>get rid of the interference. In this case if you move the channel a
>little toward the rear the flap actuator arm might hit it as it moves to
>the upper position; if you move the canopy latch arm upward the seatback
>in its rear-most position might hit it and you would also have to change
>the position of the catch on the canopy upward to match. Usually the
>best choice is to trim something a little and you may be able to do that
>here.
>
>Or yours may fit together with no problem. Whether or not they do could
>depend on things that happened much earlier, like did you get the
>bulkhead exactly vertical in the jig four months ago and did you verify
>that the seat ribs were the right length. There are too many variables.
>
>One purpose of my instructions is to bring to light areas like this
>where you might have problems, but I also get bit occasionally by my
>watchdog Randall. The last time was in not figuring that the flap bottom
>skins might not be bent exactly right, resulting in the spar not being
>where it should be after you have already drilled the holes for it in
>the skin. At least he didn't bug me to buy him a new skin.
>
>FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank access plates |
The fuel tank reinforcing ring goes on the inside on
both the -4 and the -6.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> Gentlemen & RV-4 builders in particular:
>
> I am installing the fuel tank access covers at the moment and am a little
> confused. Frank Justice's instructions specify that the T-407 reinforcing ring
> is on the inside of the tank. However on drawing 17 of the RV-4 plans it
> depicts the reinforcing ring on the outside of the tank. This configuration
> would require the reinforcing ring to be filed flat on the edge butting up
> against the center hydroformed "strengthener".
>
> Is there a difference between the RV-4 and RV-6 configuration or does it really
> matter? Seems like things will fit better with the ring on the inside.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Doug
>
> doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com, rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (tec |
Text item:
Did your parents ever tell you about how they walked several miles in
snow up to their you know what day in and day out. Boy did they have it
hard. Kind of like all you current builders. Gee, I don't know how I
got my RV4 airframe built. I had to make all my own hinge brackets out
of a piece of angle and Van didn't even send me a rock to chisel them
out with. And, of course, in the "olden" days we had to drill our own
spars. Phlogiston was but a dream at that time.
Van's kits are being made more user friendly all the time. Makes me
think about buying one and trying it again one of these days. That is
if I ever finish rebuilding the RV3 prototype. However, it is
progressing, but slowly.
The whole concept behind the EAA and Van's kits are for educational
purposes. Now you see the education aspect because you sure learn a lot
trying to do things perfect to the plans etc., only to find the plans
aren't perfect. I remember when I first got mine in '81 and saw
measurements like 29/32's. I about had a panic attack. Frank is very
correct, look at what you're doing and how it fits with the rest of the
airframe and make some common sense judgment using basic guidelines
outlined in the instruction manual.
There are the worry warts that are afraid of everything and then there
is the guy that set his spar rivets with a 2lb sledge and a piece of
railroad track. This forum is a great place to get differing thoughts
about things and I am glad I have access to it, especially for free.
Keep building, one of these days you won't have any parts left and will
have to really dig deep .... it's engine and instruments time. Good
luck.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (techni
Date: 6/16/95 8:27 AM
Had a talk with Bill Benedict last night about this problem. They have
never done a full tolerance analysis on the plans and also do not have
tight tolerances imposed on the parts they buy or make for the kits. To
do so would result in a signicant one-time expense and higher kit prices
to fix things the builders can usually handle for themselves fairly
easily. Maybe they will do it some day; they are obviously already
making a real effort in other areas to improve our lives (such as the
prepunched wing skins and all the error-corrections they do send us in
the RVator). The result is that some things sometimes don't fit together
like you would think that they should.
Van's has the same trouble I do in trying to give builders a
trouble-free adventure; if a problem doesn't bite you then you don't
know it exists until somebody else gets bit and complains. In this case
the first airplanes they built with the electric flaps went together
without any problem. They normally get only two or three calls a year
from builders experiencing the problem; it just happened that they got
three or four calls in one week. I had the same trouble pattern myself
when I had my own manufacturing operation building enclosures and
assembling electronic equipment; one day a batch of part is run off that
is a little different from the usual, sometimes still within specs, and
suddenly things don't fit together. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT RV BUILDERS
MUST BE PREPARED FOR EVERY DAY. Maybe because I have had so much
experience in more controlled environments and still seen this happen, I
just consider it an everyday part of building an RV.
My advice to all builders to avoid almost all problems with fitting
things together is:
Measure each part of the kit before you start trimming or drilling it.
If possible put it in place as a check before and during trimming; where
the drawings give trimming dimensions think of them as a guide only.
Try to figure out all of the pieces that will go together in a
particular area and clamp them in place before trimming or drilling so
you will see interferences before you are stuck with them.
Always observe the notes on the drawings about trim or drill in
assembly.
And never, never rivet anything until you absolutely have to.
To finish up with the electric flap-tip up canopy problem, Bill says try
to put all all of the pieces in place to start; the seatback, the canopy
latch crossarm, the flap actuator weldment, the flap motor, and the
channel that holds the motor. Visualize what can interfere. In this cas
it is as Gil described; the canopy latch crossarm hits the upright
channel. Then visualize what might get worse if you move something to
get rid of the interference. In this case if you move the channel a
little toward the rear the flap actuator arm might hit it as it moves to
the upper position; if you move the canopy latch arm upward the seatback
in its rear-most position might hit it and you would also have to change
the position of the catch on the canopy upward to match. Usually the
best choice is to trim something a little and you may be able to do that
here.
Or yours may fit together with no problem. Whether or not they do could
depend on things that happened much earlier, like did you get the
bulkhead exactly vertical in the jig four months ago and did you verify
that the seat ribs were the right length. There are too many variables.
One purpose of my instructions is to bring to light areas like this
where you might have problems, but I also get bit occasionally by my
watchdog Randall. The last time was in not figuring that the flap bottom
skins might not be bent exactly right, resulting in the spar not being
where it should be after you have already drilled the holes for it in
the skin. At least he didn't bug me to buy him a new skin.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Warning - RV6 Electric Flaps and Tip-up canopies (techni
From: Frank K Justice <ccm.ssd.intel.com!Frank_K_Justice(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 08:27:00 PDT
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BRADPOWELL(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: License and flight tests! |
compuserve.com!70176.1660(at)matronics.com writes:
>How about posting some info on getting N numbers (already applied
>for),
>licensing, and fight testing of my RV-6? <;^) Any good books
>available
>to help develop charts, tables, etc. that a FAR 23 certificated
>aircraft has?
Get your hands on a copy of "Flight Tesing Homebuilt Aircraft" by Vaughn
Askue ASAP! It's listed at $19.95 from Iowa State University Press. Time
and money well spent. Technical but easy to read...
Regards,
Brad Powell
RV6/6A #24153
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CAT3TOOLS(at)aol.com |
I will be gone most of the summer so please unsubscribe me, and e-mail me
conformation.
Thank you
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stanley C. Blanton" <75472.372(at)compuserve.com> |
Thanks for adding me to the list.
I'm building an RV-6 (21253). Done with the tail and about to fit the ailerons
and flaps on the wings. Planning on using an RMI engine monitor, IO-320B1A or
O-360 w/Airflow Performance injectors, slider canopy, internal VOR & MB
antennas.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rivet gun pressure |
while banging away with my 2x gun, i was wondering, just what is the optimum
operating pressure. checked all of my books, couldn't find it. can anyone
give me a hand? thanks
jimnjac hillsboro, or. RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | rivet gun pressure (fwd) |
I think it is 90 psi for most of the air tools.
I use one of the small brass regulator valves at attached at the
gun to control the impact I need depending on # 3 or #4 rivit.
If you don't have one of these valves then you will have to
regulate it at the compresser or wherever you regulator is installed.
> From root Sat Jun 17 14:06:26 1995
> From: aol.com!JIMNJAC(at)matronics.com
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:18:12 -0400
> Message-Id: <950617131742_96809525(at)aol.com>
> To: RV-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: rivet gun pressure
>
> while banging away with my 2x gun, i was wondering, just what is the optimum
> operating pressure. checked all of my books, couldn't find it. can anyone
> give me a hand? thanks
> jimnjac hillsboro, or. RV-4
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
Does anyone on the list use the internet phone from Vocal-Tec?
It would allow person to person communications via the internet.
don mack
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
So, do you guys who have been building a while get tried of the neophyte
questions?
Okay, I have my jig up, and I just finished rounding the edges of the
HS rear spar flanges to match the channels. This task took me *far*
longer than it should have.
First, I tried a file, as it specifies in the plans. Slow, slow, slow.
So I figured it was time to switch to a power tool. Look around the shop,
and what do I have? Well, I had a sanding disk attachment for my hand
drill, so I tried that. Wasn't happy.
So then I *carefully* tried the bench grinder. Awkward and not very
precise. Eventually, I used the bench grinder to knock off the edge,
then I went back to the file. I got pretty good with the file when I was
done, but I think I spent about 4 hours all told on this, and I still
haven't finished sanding the edges free of the tooling marks.
So, two questions:
1. Does anyone have a better way to do this job? Somehow, I suspect I'll
have similar tasks throughout the building process.
2. How perfect do I need to get with removal of the tooling marks? Do I
need to remove every single itsy-bitsy little mark that you need to
really look for to find, or is this overkill? At some point, you run
into diminishing returns, so if pretty darn good is okay, I'll stop at
that. If I really need perfect, though, I'll keep going.
Thanks.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John E. Brick" <p01315(at)psilink.com> |
| Subject: | Horiz Stab Dimension Question RV-4 |
>From the rear spar to the skin leading edge at the root rib, the plans
show a measurement of 20 5/8 inches. I just have the skeleton clecoed
up but this dimension doesn't seem possible. From the rear spar to the
tip of the root rib is already about 20 3/8 inches so when the skin goes
on I would expect at least 21 inches instead of 20 5/8 inches.
The plans don't call out the HS-404 rib specs but their (2) actual
length seems longer than what can be determined from scale measurements
on drawing 3a.
So far I've been worrying about errors in 32nds (not avoiding, just
worrying), but this looks big, even to me. Any clues?
Thanks,
jb
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More questions |
<9506182237.AA11469@showpg.>
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Joe,
You did indeed spend more time time than needed on those
spar flange strips. The BEST way to ease your pain and suffering
is to open your wallet. You just knew it was coming down to that didn't
you. The next handy dandy tool you MUST have is the 3M SCOTCHBRITE
wheel sold in Vans optional parts catalog or Avery or Cleveland. All
within a dollar of $38. It will take the edges down to fit the channel
in no time as well as remove ALL those filing hash marks you left, making
a perfectly smoothe finish ready to prime. Once you start using this wheel
on your bench grinder, you'll wonder how you got along before. It makes short
work of all your edge finishing needs. Almost sounds to good to be true,
but with over 100+ active builders here in Portland, and all of them using
this doodad, it would seem we're on to a good thing. It works swell on all
your sheet edges, and one wheel will last the entire project.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4-N4MF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More questions |
Joe:
You asked:
> So, do you guys who have been building a while get tried of the neophyte
> questions?
No. We were all neophytes once. I, for one, am extremely thankful
that when I was a neophyte here the old timers took care of me and
answered my questions, even though they had answered the same question
a thousand times before. So, I'm just returning the favor.
> 1. Does anyone have a better way to do this job? Somehow, I suspect I'll
> have similar tasks throughout the building process.
Get a Vixen file. You can remove metal REAL fast with one.
> 2. How perfect do I need to get with removal of the tooling marks?
Get a 6-inch scotchbrite wheel and put it on your grinder in place of
one of the grinding wheels. You'l be able to polish the whole thing
to a very nice finish in about two minutes.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: (RE) Instrument Discussion |
>
> > Okay. Stupid question. I've seen "CAVU" in a wide variety of references,
> > but none of them have ever spelled out what the letters stand for....
> > Someone care to fill me in?
>
> Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited
>
Or...
"Calm Air Visibility Unlimited"
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rivet gun pressure |
I use 30-40 lbs for -3 rivets (2x gun) and 60-80 lbs for -4 rivets. The
reason for the pressure range is that I use different buckers. The lower
the pressure, the longer it takes to "drive" the rivet. More possible
mistakes on the part of the bucker, but less likely to "overdrive" the
rivet. So, if I am working the gun, I use the high pressure since I have
a
"calibrated" timing sense for the right "burst". However, if I am the
bucker, and I'm not sure about the person behind the gun (even after a few
practice rivets), then I use the lower pressure and ask for "a little
burst" from time to time.
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: rivet gun pressure
Date: 6/17/95 3:02 PM
while banging away with my 2x gun, i was wondering, just what is the optimum
operating pressure. checked all of my books, couldn't find it. can anyone
give me a hand? thanks
jimnjac hillsboro, or. RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | re: More questions |
> Okay, I have my jig up, and I just finished rounding the edges of the
> HS rear spar flanges to match the channels. This task took me *far*
> longer than it should have.
(stuff deleted)
> 1. Does anyone have a better way to do this job? Somehow, I suspect I'll
> have similar tasks throughout the building process.
I second the recommendations of the Vixen file and Scotchbrite wheel on
your grinder. The Vixen file removes material quickly and
cuts cleanly (better than any other file), and the Scotchbrite wheel is simply
indispensible for a number of operations (shaping, deburring, etc.).
I also thought that if I had it to do over again (who knows - maybe
after I finish this plane in the next millenium I'll build another one...)
I might try a round-off bit in a router mounted in a router table.
A few light passes and the job would be done. Has anyone else tried this?
I've used a router with a carbide bit for other similar machining of
aluminum and it has worked great as long as the work is held securely.
Just this week I used a flush trim laminate bit to shave about 1/16"
off of my bottom wing skins as I was fitting my flap. I believe it was
John Morrissey from down under who suggested this a while back - worked great.
It took longer to dig out my router and bits (not doing as much woodworking
these days as I used to...) than it took to setup and make the cut.
Now for a tough question... Does anyone know a way to keep a cat from
relieving herself all over my tools? I've been fighting a battle for
a few years with the big old fur ball (I used to speak kindly of her...)
using the bottom of a cabinet-base table saw as a litter box (nice and private,
all that nice fresh sawdust) - it's all rusted at this point and smells
wonderful. This weekend was the last straw. I just got a new drill press
(14" floor-standing Delta) and the &*(@$ cat christened it by peeing
all over the base. If she lays one paw on an airplane part she may find
herself mounted on a plaque over the fireplace. Any ideas? I'm afraid
getting rid of her is not an option (the kids and my wife might
suggest getting rid of the tools first...).
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a (in spite of the cat)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More questions |
Text item:
>1. Does anyone have a better way to do this job? Somehow, I suspect I'll
> have similar tasks throughout the building process.
You should invest in one of those bench-mounted disk-belt sanders. It will save
you a lot of hours. A cheap one will do.
>2. How perfect do I need to get with removal of the tooling marks? Do I
> need to remove every single itsy-bitsy little mark that you need to
> really look for to find, or is this overkill? At some point, you run
> into diminishing returns, so if pretty darn good is okay, I'll stop at
> that. If I really need perfect, though, I'll keep going.
Especially on structural parts that may have a lot of stress on them you need to
get rid of all the marks, ending with a 320 or 400 grit sandpaper or a
Scotchbrite wheel. The reason is that stresses concentrate at these marks and
the component can start to crack there.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 17:37:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More questions
From: kksys!showpg!jpl(at)matronics.com (Joe Larson)
.1)
4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Fuel Tank Question |
| From: | "Dell M. Auer" <auer(at)teleport.com> |
-- [ From: Dell M. Auer * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
I have been helping a friend assemble his RV6 and just finished up on the
last fuel tank last night. BTW Pro seal is not that bad and really not that
messy. Any way the question came up as to what happens after 4 or 5 years
of flying and your fuel tank starts to leak. Do you replace, fix in place,
slosh or what. Remove and fix. This leak is not around a gasket or fitting
, but on a structrual member, (rib) and a rivit or bulkhead is leaking. If
it was a gasket or fitting no problem, but if it was a structrual member
that is where the question arose.
Regards
Dell
lurking, lurking lurking
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: rivet gun pressure |
Basic riveting procedure calls for a minimum number of hits when setting any
size rivet, regardless of gunner or bucker technique. The gun and the
pressure should both be sized to achieve this for the size rivets being
upset. The 2x gun is pretty good for -3 rivets, but in my estimation barely
adequate for -4 rivets, because it requires too many hits. Higher pressure
helps but it is too hard to control the position of the rivet set. A 3x (or
even a 4x , my preference) is much more satisfying for most of the RV6 work.
The riveter and bucker should practice together. The pressure should be
adjusted and tested with the rivet set banging on a 2 by4, and then tested on
the rivet. Adjust the pressure at the gun to get the minimum number of hits
that will make an acceptable shop head. You need an air regulator attached
to the rivet gun to enable you to set the pressure (flow) that will satisfy
the application. Leave the compressor tank pressure high enough to run your
drills, etc. which you will be using during the course of your riveting.
Happy Banging! And use shooters earplugs and/or hearing protectors. You'
ll be glad when you take your next physical!
Jim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: rivet gun pressure |
Rivet gun pressure is a function of many variables. What size gun, what
size rivets, what set you're using, how experienced you or your
riveting partner is. You have to experiment to find the best fit, but
you generally want high enough pressure that you can set the rivet in a
relatively short time, as lower pressure means more hits to drive the
rivet, which can result in "work hardening" the rivet before it's
completely set. This can make it take even longer to fully set the
rivet, and can theoretically over-harden the rivet. But of course it
shouldn't be so high that you risk smashing it too flat, or losing
control of the gun.
I generally set my gun to whatever pressure it takes to drive the rivet
in a second or two.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> while banging away with my 2x gun, i was wondering, just what is the optimum
> operating pressure. checked all of my books, couldn't find it. can anyone
> give me a hand? thanks
> jimnjac hillsboro, or. RV-4
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | rivet gun pressure (fwd) -Reply |
I would have to disagree with that. I also
have the brass regulator, however I was
having considerabler trouble with smilies
and bounce until I turned the pressure down
to 45 for #3 rivets to 60 psi for #4. If
you read one of Tony Bingelis articles he
mentions using much lower pressure for
rivet guns vs other air tools. It worked
for me. This is using a Avery supplied 3X
gun.
Jim
>>> 06/17/95
03:56pm >>>
I think it is 90 psi for most of the air
tools.
I use one of the small brass regulator
valves at attached at the
gun to control the impact I need depending
on # 3 or #4 rivit.
If you don't have one of these valves then
you will have to
regulate it at the compresser or wherever
you regulator is installed.
> From root Sat Jun 17 14:06:26 1995
> From: aol.com!JIMNJAC(at)matronics.com
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:18:12 -0400
> Message-Id:
<950617131742_96809525(at)aol.com>
> To: RV-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: rivet gun pressure
> > while banging away with my 2x gun, i
was wondering, just what is the optimum
> operating pressure. checked all of my
books, couldn't find it. can anyone
> give me a hand? thanks
> jimnjac hillsboro, or. RV-4
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or
thoughts expressed here are my
own and are
independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin,
Texas
AIX Network Performance
Measurement/Analysis phone: TL 678-2831
outside: (512) 838-2831 ZIP:
9632 fax:
512-838-1801 mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
I know I read something on this a week or two ago but can't
remember the answer. Question: do the outboard skins go over
or under the inboard skins. I've got the pre-punched skins
and the splice holes are in the outboard skin. The plans
depict the outboard skins under the inboard and then the
leading edge skin and fuel tank butt up against these.Thanks
ahead of time.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
(empanage done,getting ready to skin the wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Sounds like it is time to take the cat for an airplane ride and see if
it can land on all 4 from 5,000 ft.
FYI, I also had a cat that stayed in our garage in the cold winter nites.
Later, I found that the cat had sprayed one of my wings that was stored
in the garage and the acid in the urine did some damage to the outside
(unprimed) alclad skin. I think she got carried away as the litter box
was in that area and I think she missed the box.
So, If you have pets around, watch out for this problem.
Pissed off.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lots of questions |
Sorry, folks. Lots more questions but no answers.
1. People who have their planes flying: did you keep track of the hours?
How long?
===> 3000, but, if you read the latest RVator, this is entirely builder
dependent, and +/-40% probably applies.
2. The pre-built spar -- what do people think about it?
===> It's great if you got the money, doing it yourself is OK too.
3. For the flyers again -- could this airplane be used for my wife's
primary training? I'm building a 6A. I'm concerned about the speed
and sensitivity. Or would this just be a major mistake, and she
should learn in a 152 like I did?
===> Absolutely, the -6A could be used. Although some initial time in
a 152 might give some perspective...
4. If the eventual answer to #3 is "152" rather than "6A", is there
any reason I need brakes on the right side?
===> I don't have them in my -6, and haven't missed them.
5. No one seems to use their serial number for the N number. Is this
considered gauche, would the number already be used by a prior
airplane, or do people just not think it'd be handy to have
them match?
===> All depends on what you want your N number to say, mine says
"N790DW", which translates to "started project in July of '90, and my
initials". This wasn't my first choice for N number, but was on my
list. Evidently my first choices were taken.
My Avery tools arrived today, says my wife. I haven't even seen them
yet. She's threatening to hold them hostage! However, not to worry.
I understand she couldn't lift the box. Tee hee.
===> An Avery tool set is a good start....
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SENGELHART(at)aol.com |
I would like to be added to the RV list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | rivet gun pressure (fwd) -Reply (fwd) |
Jim, all I can say is the regulator at the gun works
fine for me with my 2X gun. Don't know about a larger
gun. Regulating it at the compressor may be better
as the valve at the gun just regulates the flow and
not the pressure. Herman
>
> I would have to disagree with that. I also
> have the brass regulator, however I was
> having considerabler trouble with smilies
> and bounce until I turned the pressure down
> to 45 for #3 rivets to 60 psi for #4. If
> you read one of Tony Bingelis articles he
> mentions using much lower pressure for
> rivet guns vs other air tools. It worked
> for me. This is using a Avery supplied 3X
> gun.
>
> Jim
>
> >>> 06/17/95
> 03:56pm >>>
> I think it is 90 psi for most of the air
> tools.
> I use one of the small brass regulator
> valves at attached at the
> gun to control the impact I need depending
> on # 3 or #4 rivit.
> If you don't have one of these valves then
> you will have to
> regulate it at the compresser or wherever
> you regulator is installed.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | Meanderings of an RV builder |
On the eve of applying Pro-Seal to my newly constructed
fuel tanks, these thoughts go through my weary mind.
Two things attracted me most to the RV.
1. Most bang for the buck.
2. Use of traditional materials and techniques.
Reading some of the exchanges of the last few weeks, I
am starting to wonder if I misled myself on point #2
in deciding to build an RV. Early on in this adventure,
I reasoned that the techniques and materials used to
build an RV have been in use for many decades and are
well debugged when compared to those used in constructing
composite machines.
Three areas still seem to be open for development:
1. Sealing Fuel Tanks
While Pro-Seal appears to be well-accepted, the problems
many have had with sloshing leaves me perplexed. Sealed
aluminum fuel cells are not a new thing. How did the old
timers do it? Are our techniques bad? Are our materials bad?
Or is this a problem that has plagued builders for decades?
2. Use of gaskets on fuel tanks
I would really like to avoid permanently sealing my tank's
inboard access plate. While I think a razor blade, elbow
grease and patience would enable one to get the plate off, I would rather
use a gasket and a "kindler-gentler" approach to obtaining leak
proof fuel seal. Again I ask myself, what did they do in the
olden days?
3. Machine countersinking vs. Dimpling
Machine countersinking appears to be another one of those things
to be avoided. Reports of cracked skins alone has caused
me to change my plans of machine countersinking my inboard
wing skins. Yet again, I think about the material and
technique here, and this stuff has been done for a long time.
What's going on here?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sanchez(at)took.ENET.dec.com |
I have a bunch of cats. Right now I have five. My cats
love to hang out in the garage with me when I am working. One of
them even sleeps inside my work table. I have never had a problem
with them in the shop.
Here is what I know about cats. Sometimes they can get
a bladder infection. When this happens they will feel the need to
pee all the time. Take your cat to the vet to have it checked.
Also, they will sometimes pee if they are getting old and sick.
Cats are very emotional. When they are upset with you they will
pee just to piss you off. It works! The only other time I have
heard of this problem is if their litter box is not kept clean or
if they are outdoors cats and can't get out.
They have attention sensors. They know exactly what your
attention is focused on. The more strongly it is focused the
more it can bug them. One of my cats always bugs me the most
when I am totally obsorbed by something. She just has to get
petted at that point. I pet her once and if that is not
enough I make her go outside for a while.
So, have your cat checked by the vet, keep the litter
box clean and give them plenty of attention and you won't
have any problems.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
I never thought I would have a good excuse to pass along this tidbit, but:
If you are wondering how much good primer does, the galvanized steel pan on the
bottom of our rabbit's cage started rusting badly after only a few months. I
ground off the rust and painted it, one coat, with some leftover Courtauld's
yellow epoxy-polyimide like Boeing uses. In a year and a half there is
absolutely no sign of corrosion or flaking.
So, if you plan to ferry livestock in your airplane.....
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Lots of questions |
> 1. People who have their planes flying: did you keep track of the hours?
> How long?
Not flying :-( can't answer
> 2. The pre-built spar -- what do people think about it?
Most people who I've talked to who went with the pr-built were
satisfied with it. Same for the built-it-myself-ers. The quality of
the Phlogiston spars seems pretty good these days. But I liked the idea
of building it myself and it wasn't difficult, just took more time.
> 3. For the flyers again -- could this airplane be used for my wife's
> primary training? I'm building a 6A. I'm concerned about the speed
> and sensitivity. Or would this just be a major mistake, and she
> should learn in a 152 like I did?
The -6A would probably make a pretty good trainer, but do you really
want to be out there watching your wife fly the fruits of your years of
hard labor the way you did as a student in the rented C-152? I know _I_
wouldn't, no matter HOW good a student she is. Or at least use a
rented trainer for the initial 10-20 hour "slamming it on" period
before starting her in the RV.
> 4. If the eventual answer to #3 is "152" rather than "6A", is there
> any reason I need brakes on the right side?
Can't speak to that.
> 5. No one seems to use their serial number for the N number. Is this
> considered gauche, would the number already be used by a prior
> airplane, or do people just not think it'd be handy to have
> them match?
I've never heard of any reason why not, as long as it's available.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, MR KURT L KEILBACH wrote:
> I know I read something on this a week or two ago but can't
> remember the answer. Question: do the outboard skins go over
> or under the inboard skins. I've got the pre-punched skins
> and the splice holes are in the outboard skin. The plans
> depict the outboard skins under the inboard and then the
> leading edge skin and fuel tank butt up against these.Thanks
> ahead of time.
>
>
> Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
> (empanage done,getting ready to skin the wings)
Kurt:
It was me who asked the question. The outboard skin now
goes on top. I found this mentioned in the construction manual
even though the plans still show the inboard skin on top.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
> Sounds like it is time to take the cat for an airplane ride and see if
> it can land on all 4 from 5,000 ft.
>
> FYI, I also had a cat that stayed in our garage in the cold winter nites.
> Later, I found that the cat had sprayed one of my wings that was stored
> in the garage and the acid in the urine did some damage to the outside
> (unprimed) alclad skin. I think she got carried away as the litter box
> was in that area and I think she missed the box.
>
> So, If you have pets around, watch out for this problem.
>
> Pissed off.
>
>Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
>mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>--------------
Oh yeah? Well my cat story beats your cat story... :-) My cat was teething
and found that the upholstery I worked so hard on was just the ticket to pop
those new molars out on. I was soooooo pissed. Also, the rear seat was a
nifty place to piss when you just can't make it to the litter box. Oh but
wait, there's more! You know the red mixture ball on the throttle quad? It's
about 1" in diameter? Humm, that's fits just purrrrrfect in to a kitty
mouth... ...then again, so does my foot!
Waaaa!
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: learning to fly in an RV-6A |
I would *not* start 'em out in a Cessna 152. High wing vs low wing, poor
acceleration, wheel vs stick, nosewheel steering vs brakes, different glide
and sink rate and all that.
Rather, I think the solution is to find an *excellent* instructor, and tell
the Mrs. that she'll be overtrained for solo. Granted, my students have all
learned at a busy, GA-only tower controlled field, but there's no reason to
solo partially trained at 8 hours, when at 15 or so they can be proficient at
crosswind landings and have done an hour of takeoffs and landings with the
airspeed covered and all kinds of confidence and proficiency building stuff
like that.
Ed Wischmeyer
CFII / 200+ hours RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: More questions |
(Tom Goeddel) writes:
>I might try a round-off bit in a router mounted in a router table.
>A few light passes and the job would be done. Has anyone else tried this?
This is the method I used on my spar reinforcement flanges. Only we set up
the drill press as a "milling machine", of course you need to be VERY careful
about that cutter spinning merrily away.
It also required a number of passes to remove the necessary amount of stock.
The end result was a radius that was nearly perfect, polished up nicely with
the scotchbrite wheel.
Hints: Small passes, leave a little stock for final filing and polishing,
run both flanges through the final pass without adjusting the cutter so they
are identical. Wear gloves and be very careful.
It's danged hard to finish your RV with mangled fingers!
Noel
RV-6
(and that other.... unmentionable plane I'm building)
Why a 6? `Cause only a fool would let his wife sit behind him after blowing
35K! That's why!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Please Re-suscribe |
subscribe rv-list: CRazer2(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Deene Ogden <deene(at)ibmoto.com> |
| Subject: | Re: learning to fly in an RV-6A |
As usual, there are pros and cons to learning to fly in
a RV-6A (or any experimental). I have had several students
in experimentals and know of several other people's
experiences in learning to fly in experimentals. Being in
Central Texas where RV's are very common, I have flown a
number of RV's and am the builder of a BD-4 which I have been
flying for the past 15+ years.
If the builder/owner or his wife is a pilot and needs/wants
additional instruction in his RV, then I think it will work
out well in general. However, if one is contemplating building
an RV, and then learning to fly from scratch in it, then he
should seriously consider a 6A and possibly first getting past
solo in a C152 or Tomahawk before training in the RV. The wear
and tear on the machine, particularly for the take-off and
landing phase, is just too great. And besides, the initial
flight test period should be flown by experienced pilots.
If the situation is that the builder is a pilot and now wants
his wife to learn to fly (hopefully she is a willing participant
in this endeavor), then I would again seriously consider having
her get her ticket with a good instructor in a normal training
environment/aircraft.
An anxious builder/husband hovering in the background is just
not a good thing and can be a major problem for the learning
process. Remember, that it is very hard for any pilot-husband
to not add his views on how to fly, and now, since HE built the
plane, he probably knows more than anyone about how it and how
his wife should fly it.
And God forbid, that she or the instructor (assuming you can
find one with RV experience) bend the bird in the process. This
happened in another situation that I know about. Luckily, the
builder is a great guy and happily rebuilt his RV and has a
great relationship with his wife. Unfortunately, because of the
incident or perhaps other reasons, she did not continue to learn
to fly. And this was with a very experienced instructor who also
had built and owned an RV.
In another case, I taught a close friend's wife to fly a 200 hp
BD-4 tail-dragger with good success even with wheel landings at
80 mph. She was a PP and had about 100 hours in a Cherokee 140.
Here, the transition training was doable for her. I don't think
she would have completed a full PP training course in the BD.
As I'm writing this, I can think of a large number of pilots who
would love for their wife to be a pilot and fly with them. It
is a major deal and all effort and expense should be applied to
make sure the wife has a successful experience in learning to fly.
On the right side brake question, I would strongly suggest that
all two place ships be built with dual brakes. The cost/trouble
is small and the right side brakes are handy for a number of
situations.
My opinions only...Deene Ogden.
CFI, AIMG
EAA Flight Advisor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | wing skins -Reply |
I drilled mine with the outboard under the
inboard as the plans depict.
Someone in the group mentioned that they
have seen them built the other way around
the theory being that moisture running down
the dihedral will not get under the skin so
easily.
Jim
>>> MR KURT L KEILBACH
06/19/95 01:21pm >>>
I know I read something on this a week or
two ago but can't remember the answer.
Question: do the outboard skins go over or
under the inboard skins. I've got the
pre-punched skins and the splice holes are
in the outboard skin. The plans depict the
outboard skins under the inboard and then
the leading edge skin and fuel tank butt up
against these.Thanks ahead of time.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
(empanage done,getting ready to skin the
wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Joe:
I essentially used the same method you did... lots of filing (using a rather
agressive file initially). I then used a scotch-brite wheel on my die grinder
to accomplish the final finishing. This did remove all scratches which
personally I would do. I don't think you can be too careful in this area.
I did read about one builder who used a router bit to accomplish this radius on
the rear spar, however I don't have any personal experience in trying this
method.
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Meanderings of an RV builder |
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019, GETIPSWO wrote:
> 1. Sealing Fuel Tanks
>
> While Pro-Seal appears to be well-accepted, the problems
> many have had with sloshing leaves me perplexed. Sealed
> aluminum fuel cells are not a new thing. How did the old
> timers do it? Are our techniques bad? Are our materials bad?
> Or is this a problem that has plagued builders for decades?
This is a problem that has plagued builders and owners of
wet-wing airplanes forever. I good friend of mine has a mooney
(which has a wet wing), and it took three tries to get the
big leaks stopped. He is still plagued with a tiny bit of
seepage.
An additional factor is that problems have only recently began
to appear with the slosh.
>
> 2. Use of gaskets on fuel tanks
>
> I would really like to avoid permanently sealing my tank's
> inboard access plate. While I think a razor blade, elbow
> grease and patience would enable one to get the plate off, I would rather
> use a gasket and a "kindler-gentler" approach to obtaining leak
> proof fuel seal. Again I ask myself, what did they do in the
> olden days?
My best friend is an A&P. I've known this guy since high school,
I've helped him rebuild a couple of his airplanes, and I trust
his judgement completely. He said that he would Pro-Seal the
covers on.
> 3. Machine countersinking vs. Dimpling
>
> Machine countersinking appears to be another one of those things
> to be avoided. Reports of cracked skins alone has caused
> me to change my plans of machine countersinking my inboard
> wing skins. Yet again, I think about the material and
> technique here, and this stuff has been done for a long time.
We have to remember that the building process is for the purpose
of "recreation and education". What we are doing is gaining an
education of the methods and practices that have been in use
commercially for decades. We all discuss them here so that we
can all learn.
As you look at production airplanes, one thing you'll notice is
that you'll seldom find an .032 skin that has been machine-
countersunk. The specs allow it, but it is seldom done in
practice.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | morigeau(at)sapphire.netrix.net (Randy Morigeau) |
Please remove my name for now.
I have been gathering this info for my Dad. I am just getting more than I
expected and sooner than he is needing it. The info, system and people out
there are great. Will get back on when my Dad is clooser to doing
something.
THANKS!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | tjanke(at)dial.cic.net (Tom) |
| Subject: | RVator subscription info |
Hello fellow RV enthusiasts,
I would like information on receiving the valuable publication "RVator".
A telephone number, contact name etc. please.
I am also looking for RV builders in the SE Michigan area. My wife and I
will begin our project (RV-6) shortly after we relocate (to Clarkston, MI) in
July.
Best Regards,
Tom Janke
home - (810)305-8593
work - (313)556-6045
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Bysinger <john.bysinger(at)mccaw.com> |
| Subject: | Puget Sound RVators Picnic |
I am conveying a message on behalf of Carol Lynn and her friends who belong
to the local builders group, the Puget Sound RVators. Here is their
invitation:
______________________
If you are planning to attend the Arlington Air Fair:
Don't miss the Puget Sound RVators picnic, it's a great chance to meet local
builders, thier families and friends while enjoying the Air Show.
Hamburgers, hotdogs, pop, chips and all the fixings will be provided. (If
you drive in and can bring a side dish, that would be appreciated but not
mandatory.)
We'll start gathering around 1:00 on the Saturday of the Air Show (July 8th)
in the grassy field north of the GlassAir factory, south of the fuel pumps.
You'll need to take the Air Show Shuttle to get accross the airfield. Be
sure to allow plenty of time to stand in line, and don't forget, the shuttle
doesn't run during the air performances, and you may have to wait quite a
while!
This was a well attended event last year and we look forward to seeing even
more new faces this year!
See you there!
Carol Lynn, and the Puget Sound RVators
P.S. If you live in the Puget Sound area and haven't joined our builders
group, we have a great little newsletter, edited by Greg Rainwater, and a
builders list that comes in handy when you have a question or need a helping
hand.
_________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
After getting partially rained-out of our Scappoose RV flyin, and not
going to Salmon Arm last weekend due to weather, it looks like it is
finally going to be nice this weekend.
Someone had mentioned a flyin at "Skagit County" for this weekend. Any
details? Also, is that 'BVS'? I may make a run up there in my -6 if it
sounds like a good event....
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RVator subscription info |
RVator is published by Van's Aircraft themselves. Call them (503-647-5117) and
one of the nice ladies will fix you up with a subscription. By the way, for the
rest of us, don't forget to re-up every January or you will be like me and stop
getting them! They DON'T send out subscription notices. Also, BE SURE to ask
for a copy of the Optional Parts Catalog, besides lots of neat accessories
inside, it has a really cool RV-6 on the front cover (mine! :-).
Speaking of the RVator, there were some new products mentioned. I saw these and
some others during a recent sojourn into the sanctity of the Optional Parts
Warehouse.
They showed the new fuel tank access covers, with rings and nose rib
re-inforcements, very nice. I also saw the Woodward Governor brackets, and
Pre-poured elevator counter weights! They have bolt holes so you just bolt 2 on
each counterweight 'horn', and trim or drill as needed for balance, after
painting. No more pouring molten lead!
Last, but not least, remember the '5-point harness' discussions from a week ago?
I saw boxes of the '5th point', in various belt colors, all ready to go. these
are made to work with the std 4-point unit, and get mounted behind the stick.
I
am working with Andy Hanna to prototype a set of mounts for the -6/-6A so you
can buy the 5th point ready to install.
Except for the harness and Governor bracket, all of these items will be standard
in the kits soon, and can be ordered separately now.
It just keeps getting easier...
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
Hello fellow RV enthusiasts,
I would like information on receiving the valuable publication "RVator".
A telephone number, contact name etc. please.
I am also looking for RV builders in the SE Michigan area. My wife and I
will begin our project (RV-6) shortly after we relocate (to Clarkston, MI) in
July.
Best Regards,
Tom Janke
home - (810)305-8593
work - (313)556-6045
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
I am finishing up my RV6-A wings and have a couple of questions.
Should I leave the bottom skins unriveted (I backriveted the top skins)
until the end of the project???
I am using the Cleveland RV Wingtip Attach Hardware (AN509-4 screws
with MS20426-A3-6 Soft Rivets to hold the nutplates in place. Any
words of wisdom?? Should I use a plate behid the fiberglass wing tip
for the nutplates or not?? How about fitting the wingtip on???
Ross Mickey
RV6-A #23203
Eugene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: More questions |
G'day Joe,
I tend to use a file for a lot of my stuff. The trick is to get a
range of different grades of file from the really course body file to
the fine jewellers files for rounding out sharp corners on small
parts. Also invest in a file brush and keep your files clean!
For this particular job I used a table mounted belt sander. This
combined with a scotchbrite belt for finishing, worked great!!
Regarding the level of finish - Basically smooth out ALL nicks and
deep scratches. Cracks will start from these areas of surface stress.
Your comment about "looking around the workshop" is a good one! If you
have lots of money invest in lots of good tools, if you are like the
rest of us, use what you got on hand.
A mate of mine use a router bit to round off his spar webs because he
happened to have a suitable bit and was skilled in its use.
Enjoy!!
John
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: More questions
Date: 18/6/95 5:37 PM
So, do you guys who have been building a while get tried of the neophyte
questions?
Okay, I have my jig up, and I just finished rounding the edges of the
HS rear spar flanges to match the channels. This task took me *far*
longer than it should have.
First, I tried a file, as it specifies in the plans. Slow, slow, slow.
So I figured it was time to switch to a power tool. Look around the shop,
and what do I have? Well, I had a sanding disk attachment for my hand
drill, so I tried that. Wasn't happy.
So then I *carefully* tried the bench grinder. Awkward and not very
precise. Eventually, I used the bench grinder to knock off the edge,
then I went back to the file. I got pretty good with the file when I was
done, but I think I spent about 4 hours all told on this, and I still
haven't finished sanding the edges free of the tooling marks.
So, two questions:
1. Does anyone have a better way to do this job? Somehow, I suspect I'll
have similar tasks throughout the building process.
2. How perfect do I need to get with removal of the tooling marks? Do I
need to remove every single itsy-bitsy little mark that you need to
really look for to find, or is this overkill? At some point, you run
into diminishing returns, so if pretty darn good is okay, I'll stop at
that. If I really need perfect, though, I'll keep going.
Thanks.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RVator subscription |
>
> I would like information on receiving the valuable publication "RVator".
> A telephone number, contact name etc. please.
Their number is 647-5117. Jeez, isn't that in the FAQ? OOPS! MATT!!!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
rv-list-request(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: RVator subscription |
>--------------
>>
>> I would like information on receiving the valuable publication "RVator".
>> A telephone number, contact name etc. please.
>
>Their number is 647-5117. Jeez, isn't that in the FAQ? OOPS! MATT!!!
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
>--------------
Opps is right - sort of. Van's number was listed but only under the tool
vendors section. I added a Q&A about the address and phone number.
Matt
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 22:15:02 -0500
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Subject: Re: Aileron Travel
> I'm just fitting my first aileron. I couldn't get the required 32
> degrees
> of up travel due to the bottom mounting bolt of the outboard aileron
> hinge (the steel piece) hitting the outboard aileron mount. I'm pretty
> sure everything is mounted per the plans, as even the plans show a
> potential interference problem at this point. The only solution is to
> grind down either the bolt head or the aileron mounting bracket. I
> decided to grind the bracket. But, with grinding the edges of the
> brackets smooth, plus grinding for clearance, the dimensions of my
> bracket are definitely smaller than called for in the plans, probably
> by 1/8" or so. Has anyone else encountered this problem?
>
> At this point I'm considering biting the bullet and seeing if I can
> order
> new bracket pieces from Van's, undrilled and unassembled, so that I can
> do them right this time. Of course, if the bracket is designed oversized
>
> to allow for grinding to fit, etc, then I'll just use the ones I have.
>
> I will call Van's about this, just wondering what other people have
> done.
Curt, I seem to recall using a washer head screw (don't have catalog handy so
can't give number) this solved problem. If nervous about this just add another
bolt half way.
Ken
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John E. Brick" <p01315(at)psilink.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Horiz Stab Dimension Question RV-4 |
>FROM: David A. Barnhart
>
>John:
>
>I just went out to the garage and measured mine, and it is darn
>close to 20 5/8. Sheet 8a contains dimensions of all the
>ribs in the H.S. Check yours and make sure they are close.
>
>The only other source of error I can think of right now is that
>the mounting angle is not sufficient. They should be 3-1/8 inches
>apart at the rear spar and 6-3/4 inches apart where the leading
>edge would be.
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
>
I checked sheet 8a for rib dimensions. HS-404 is supposed to be 8.25
inches in length. Mine are 8.5 inches, measured by clamping into the
skin to get the nose radius which is on the drawing but lopped off the
actual rib.
The mounting angles seem to be entirely determined by the holes
drilled in the rear and fwd spars for HS-405, and they are "exactly" 3
5/16 and 4 9/16 from the centerline, as specified respectively.
Another problem dimension is the distance between the forward and rear
spars at the centerline; the plans show 12 1/4 whereas mine is 12 3/8.
Builder error does not seem possible here if the HS-405 mounting angles
are correct. These ribs are very close to the length specified on sheet 8a,
12.286 inches, but right angle geometry would yield something much closer
to 12 3/8 between the spars rather than the 12 1/4 given.
Modifying the rib lengths does not look like a good idea because, as
they now sit, HS-404, HS-407, HS-406 ribs form a nice straight line along
their leading edge from root to tip.
After more careful measurement, I expect the 20 5/8 plans measurement to be
about 20 7/8 actual... not as bad as first estimated.
Dave, the RV-6 must have different spanwise dimensions than the RV-4,
my plans show 5 3/16 from center to root at leading edge.
If these concerns are totally trivial, please say so... I want to get
on with this project.
Thanks,
John Brick (RV-4)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John E. Brick" <p01315(at)psilink.com> |
| Subject: | HS Stab Dimensions RV-4 |
OOPS. Right angle geometry does yield the prescribed 12 1/4 distance between
front and rear spars. Dang.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
| Subject: | landing and position lights |
I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
to install. I've seen the leading edge landing lightsthat you mount
inboard the position lights.They look pretty good. I've also seen the
ones with the landing light mounted inthe wing tip with the position
light (at sun & fun). Any advice, pro's & con's would be useful.
Thanks.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
( All wing skins and ribs drilled, removed for deburr & dimple. )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
| Subject: | landing and position lights |
I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
to install. I've seen the leading edge landing lightsthat you mount
inboard the position lights.They look pretty good. I've also seen the
ones with the landing light mounted inthe wing tip with the position
light (at sun & fun). Any advice, pro's & con's would be useful.
Thanks.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
( All wing skins and ribs drilled, removed for deburr & dimple. )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
| Subject: | landing and position lights |
I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
to install. I've seen the leading edge landing lightsthat you mount
inboard the position lights.They look pretty good. I've also seen the
ones with the landing light mounted inthe wing tip with the position
light (at sun & fun). Any advice, pro's & con's would be useful.
Thanks.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
( All wing skins and ribs drilled, removed for deburr & dimple. )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Meanderings of an RV builder |
> On the eve of applying Pro-Seal to my newly constructed
> fuel tanks, these thoughts go through my weary mind.
>
> Two things attracted me most to the RV.
>
> 1. Most bang for the buck.
> 2. Use of traditional materials and techniques.
>
> Reading some of the exchanges of the last few weeks, I
> am starting to wonder if I misled myself on point #2
> in deciding to build an RV. Early on in this adventure,
> I reasoned that the techniques and materials used to
> build an RV have been in use for many decades and are
> well debugged when compared to those used in constructing
> composite machines.
Yes they are but we all have to learn them. Just because there are well
established processes doesn't mean we are going to pick them all up
overnight. Plus we as homebuilders are adopting these processes from
production environments, and it isn't always easy to duplicate that
environment in a garage shop, no matter what the kit manufacturers
might want you to believe.
>
> Three areas still seem to be open for development:
>
> 1. Sealing Fuel Tanks
>
> While Pro-Seal appears to be well-accepted, the problems
> many have had with sloshing leaves me perplexed. Sealed
> aluminum fuel cells are not a new thing. How did the old
> timers do it? Are our techniques bad? Are our materials bad?
> Or is this a problem that has plagued builders for decades?
________________________________________________________________________________
inside of the tanks have to be properly etched and cleaned. Since
there's a wide variety of builders/shops/skill levels, there is an
equally wide variety of results. It's not like a production shop where
you can control all the processes. Once people started having problems
with it, whatever the cause, Vans' decided it wasn't worth the risk and
just started recommending against it. But I'll bet if you did it right,
it would hold. Even so, I think it makes more sense to concentrate on
doing a good job of prosealing.
> 2. Use of gaskets on fuel tanks
>
> I would really like to avoid permanently sealing my tank's
> inboard access plate. While I think a razor blade, elbow
> grease and patience would enable one to get the plate off, I would rather
> use a gasket and a "kindler-gentler" approach to obtaining leak
> proof fuel seal. Again I ask myself, what did they do in the
> olden days?
Good question. I STILL haven't decided if I want to proseal them on or
not. But Buna-N rubber gaskets do show some promise -- the word is they
won't deteriorate. But you're never going to get as good a seal with
ANY gasket as with proseal.
>
> 3. Machine countersinking vs. Dimpling
>
> Machine countersinking appears to be another one of those things
> to be avoided. Reports of cracked skins alone has caused
> me to change my plans of machine countersinking my inboard
> wing skins. Yet again, I think about the material and
> technique here, and this stuff has been done for a long time.
>
> What's going on here?
>
Yes machine countersinking has been around for a long time, but if you
look at production aircraft, it's mostly done on military and
commercial planes, with their thicker skins. I don't think machine
countersinking is appropriate for the thin skins (< .040) that we use.
Earl Brabandt once told me he did the geometry on it and found that
with AN470 rivets and .032 skin, it really doesn't meet the spec. But
some people just want to have "the look" and insist on going with it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Horiz Stab Dimension Question RV-4 |
John Brick (RV-4) said:
>
> I checked sheet 8a for rib dimensions. HS-404 is supposed to be 8.25
> inches in length. Mine are 8.5 inches, measured by clamping into the
> skin to get the nose radius which is on the drawing but lopped off the
> actual rib.
....
>
> After more careful measurement, I expect the 20 5/8 plans measurement to be
> about 20 7/8 actual... not as bad as first estimated.
Yeah but not insignificant. Are you sure you didn't get HS-604 ribs by
mistake? I'd call Van's if I were you.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Regarding the wing tips, I used nutplates and I put a doubler on the inside of
the fiberglass. This was a strip of aluminum say about 1/2 to 5/8 inches wide
and the length of the tip. I probably used some scrap of .025. To attache it,
I used Proseal and some clamps. Then I attached the nutplates to the inside of
this doubler. I just used regular #3 426 rivits and a squezer to put them on.
There was a trick shown in one of the older news letters about using a piece of
foam on the inside to help hold the shape while you drill/cleco the tips on.
I used a piece of 1/2 foam insulation, the foil backed suff used on houses and
made an airfoil cutout shape to insert inside while drilling.
As noted in earlier postings, you may want to hold of on installing these until
your controls are on. At least have the ailerons on and in the neutral position
and use this to allign the aft edge of the tips so they are alligned.
You may have to do some work on the tips to get them to fit. Mine had a few minor
problems on one. I have seen some builders that had to split the rear edge
and redo it to get the tip to allign with the ailerons.
You can leave the bottom skin off for as long as possible till you are sure
you will not run any more wires, etc, inside. I installed some poly tubing
(I think 7/16 in.) inside that I can route the strobe and nav light wires thru.
This goes from the root ribs to the tip.
I left my second skins off for some time but finally put them on just to be
done with it.
> From: ix.netcom.com!rmickey(at)matronics.com (Ross Mickey )
> Subject: Wing tips
>
> I am finishing up my RV6-A wings and have a couple of questions.
>
> Should I leave the bottom skins unriveted (I backriveted the top skins)
> until the end of the project???
>
> I am using the Cleveland RV Wingtip Attach Hardware (AN509-4 screws
> with MS20426-A3-6 Soft Rivets to hold the nutplates in place. Any
> words of wisdom?? Should I use a plate behid the fiberglass wing tip
> for the nutplates or not?? How about fitting the wingtip on???
>
> Ross Mickey
> RV6-A #23203
> Eugene
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
I wrote this up in severe detail a couple weeks ago, but this is the quick
version:
I left mine unriveted 'just in case' and found no reason to later, from a
fitting standpoint. It did allow me to change some wiring. I riveted them
before fitting to the fuse and had no problems.
I would put an aluminum strip in and fasten it and the nutplates to the
fiberglass. I would also glass a thin layer of 'foam' on the flat upper
surface, as the std tips WILL warp on top in short order. This fix is
"available" as an option from Jerry Herrold, but he is behind on orders and you
may not want to wait that long. I have these tips and after a year they look
great.
I would NOT install the tips until the wings are on the plane and the
flaps/ailerons are aligned with the fuse.
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
I am finishing up my RV6-A wings and have a couple of questions.
Should I leave the bottom skins unriveted (I backriveted the top skins)
until the end of the project???
I am using the Cleveland RV Wingtip Attach Hardware (AN509-4 screws
with MS20426-A3-6 Soft Rivets to hold the nutplates in place. Any
words of wisdom?? Should I use a plate behid the fiberglass wing tip
for the nutplates or not?? How about fitting the wingtip on???
Ross Mickey
RV6-A #23203
Eugene
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: landing and position lights |
Text item:
THE BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK IS THE "DUCKWORKS" LIGHTS.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: landing and position lights
Date: 6/21/95 11:22 AM
I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
to install. I've seen the leading edge landing lightsthat you mount
inboard the position lights.They look pretty good. I've also seen the
ones with the landing light mounted inthe wing tip with the position
light (at sun & fun). Any advice, pro's & con's would be useful.
Thanks.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
( All wing skins and ribs drilled, removed for deburr & dimple. )
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: landing and position lights
From: prodigy.com!NAEK31A(at)matronics.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 11:22:33 EDT
odigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA133106 for ; Wed
I-4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | landing and position lights -Reply |
I purchased and installed Steve Barnard's Langing/Taxi Light Kit. It
installs in the leading edge, between the last two outboard tip ribs. I am
happy with the results, and Steve is a super guy to do business with. I
am still constructing my plane so I haven't actually used the light yet,
but all looks good.
>>> MKURTLKE @ SMTP (MR KURT L KEILBACH)
{mail.prodigy.com!NAEK31A(at)matronics.com} 06/21/95 11:22am >>>
I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
to install. I've seen the leading edge landing lightsthat you mount
inboard the position lights.They look pretty good. I've also seen the
ones with the landing light mounted inthe wing tip with the position
light (at sun & fun). Any advice, pro's & con's would be useful.
Thanks.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
( All wing skins and ribs drilled, removed for deburr & dimple. )
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | fuel tank rivets |
Hello fellow builders,
I just finished riveting the front few rivets on each rib of the leading
edge with the help of my wife. She made the tragic mistake of doing a good
job (so now she's stuck doing the rest of the plane). I had to drill out
about 4 bad rivets but as they say, all's well that ends well. The only
ones that we had any trouble with were the very first ones that go through
the skinny little piece of rib flange in the front. Being on curve like
they are seems to make it difficult to get these perfect. I am considering
leaving the front rivet out of each of the interior tank ribs. These rivets
don't seem like they are all that important and the whole nose of the rib
will be Pro-sealed anyway. I'm thinking that the potential for screw-up
(both drilling and rivetting) outweighs the need for the rivets. I'll
probably be drilling these holes next week so I would like to hear what
others think about this plan. Do you think it will hurt to leave out the
front rivet on the top and bottom of each interior tank rib (8 rivets per
tank)?
As far as the access plates go...If I were doing it again, I wouldn't make
an access plate at all. It took way to long to fabricate, and I don't see
that it has much use if you use the screw-in pickup. Say you get some large
crud of some kind in your tank, sure it's nice to have that big hole to
clean out the inboard compartment, but what about the other 4. I can see
some situations where it might be helpful, but I don't think it justifies
the extra leak potential. I plan to proseal mine shut and figure that I can
get them off later if I really, really have to.
Thanks for the opinions as always,
Russell Duffy
RV-6 (Yes, still a 6 - haven't floundered back to 6A... yet)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cesoo(at)PrimeNet.Com (cario elementary school) |
| Subject: | Engine for RV4 nearing completion |
Would like to know if anyone knows of Lycoming 0-320 160hp or 0-360 engine
for sale. I am not on line except for short periods. My number is
503-889-9252. If you have information you are welcome to call collect.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cesoo(at)PrimeNet.Com (cario elementary school) |
| Subject: | Engine for RV4 nearing completion |
Looking for Lycoming 0-320 160hp or 0-360 for my RV4. Can be runout engine
or less time. I am only on the net a short time and would be happy to
except a collet call at 503-889-9252 if you have any information.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Meanderings of an RV builder (technical) |
>
>3. Machine countersinking vs. Dimpling
>
>Machine countersinking appears to be another one of those things
>to be avoided. Reports of cracked skins alone has caused
>me to change my plans of machine countersinking my inboard
>wing skins. Yet again, I think about the material and
>technique here, and this stuff has been done for a long time.
>
>What's going on here?
RV-listers,
I knew I could get some real facts and data to go along
with this discussion.
MIL-HDBK-5F - Metallic Materials and Elements for Aerospace Vehicle Structures
This is a design guidebook of material strengths and fastener
strengths that is approved by the Army, Navy, Air Force and the FAA.
Shear strength of 3/32 MS20426AD flush rivets (values are ultimate
strength in lbs.)
Sheet thickness Dimpled Countersunk
0.032 217 178
0.040 217 193
0.063 217 216
This shows a 18% loss of strength for every countersunk rivet in
0.032, and an 11% loss in 0.040 material. The Handbook also had a warning
that in 0.032 material, this was a "knife edge condition" and was
undesirable, and _not_ approved.
To answer the question above, basically, we homebuilders are not
following approved practices in this area, and we are seeing the effects.
For those of us substituting 1/8 rivets at the floorpan/firewall
joint, the equivalent shear strength of a 1/8 dimpled rivet in 0.040
material is 388 lbs., a 79% increase over 3/32 dimpled rivets.
... Just some data to show that those that say always dimple are right :^)
.. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... fitting cockpit stuff
PS The gentleman who requested material, rivet and bolt useage and
strength information should get a copy of this document .... it is about 5
inches (double-sided) thick though! It is the first time I have seen it,
and it is really a wealth of knowledge on materials. It is copyright free,
and I presume can be obtained through the Government Printing Office.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Fuel tank dimples |
Spent some time staring at my fuel tanks yesterday. The plans (RV-4)
specifically call for countersinking some of the screw holes at the tank/spar
attach points. This is the only place I can think of that _specifically_
calls for countersinking, but it looks like that just takes too much
material away. Has anyone/everyone dimpled all of the fuel tank screw holes?
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
The new cowling arrived!! All six pieces of it. It looks great.
If you still have your Oct. '94 issue of Sport Aviation, on page 40
there is a picture of my RV-3 with the engine and engine mount.
The nose bowl of the cowling is in two pieces and will be rigidly
attached to the front end of the engine mount arm by a steel tube ring. The
nose bowl is split horizontally at the spinner. The top half of the nose bowl
will be separately removable for easy access to the prop bolt nuts. (Those of
us that fly with wood props appreciate this feature.)
There is a top and bottom section of cowl which will mount from the nose
bowl to the firewall.
And finally, there are the two side pieces of the cowl that form LARGE
doors from the nose bowl to the firewall for access to everything (except the
prop bolts) on both sides of the engine. There is a piano hinge at the top of
the door that is actually used as a hinge; i.e., the pin is NOT removed to open
the cowl. (I know this is a difficult concept to understand, since I always
removed the pins on my O-290 cowling.)
Jim Ayers
LOM/RV-3 (Long Nose)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: landing and position lights |
On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, MR KURT L KEILBACH wrote:
> I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
> to install.
Well, I'll tell you what *I* plan to do. (of course, you sometimes
get what you pay for when you get free advice)
For landing lights, I'm going to use a pair of the Duckworks
lights, one in the leading edge of each wing.
FOr wingtip position lights, the BEST arrangement I've ever seen
is a lens lit sold by Chief aircraft. It creates plexiglass-covered
cutout in the forward outboard corner of each wintip. Imagine the
flush wigtip lens from a late-model (V35B) Bonanza scaled down to
fit an RV. A standard WHelan nav/strobe lite combo is mounted inside it.
Of all the setups for mounting wingtip position lights, this one is the
best, most proffessional-looking one I've seen.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
RV-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuel tank rivets |
On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 rad(at)gulf.net wrote:
> I am considering
> leaving the front rivet out of each of the interior tank ribs.
In the leading edge section, there were only three rivets in each rib
that I could not drive myself. With some gentle encouragement (this
is, after all, probably the most highly-visible part of the wing),
my wife did a fine job with the rivet gun while I manned the bucking bar.
As for the tanks, I'll most likely seek more highly-experienced help
anyway, so I see no reason to omit the rivets in the leading edge
of the tank skin.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Nose tank rib doubler |
Just in the process of preparing the tank ribs of my RV-4. Question: Is there
or is there not a nose rib doubler that fits on the inside of the inboard tank
ribs to serve to strengthen where the T-405 fitting attaches to the inboard rib?
My drawing 17 does not show this but the 2/95 issue of the RVator shoes the
availability of a prepunched doubler (p.12). What is the thickness of this
doubler?
Many thanks,
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | re: Fuel tank dimples |
> Spent some time staring at my fuel tanks yesterday. The plans (RV-4)
> specifically call for countersinking some of the screw holes at the tank/spar
> attach points. This is the only place I can think of that _specifically_
> calls for countersinking, but it looks like that just takes too much
> material away. Has anyone/everyone dimpled all of the fuel tank screw holes?
I called Van's on this very issue - it seemed to me the material
thickness was way too thin to even consider countersinking for #8 screws.
Their answer was that since the skin and rear tank baffle are riveted
together, they effectively form one thick piece as far as the attach screws
are concerned, and that countersinking them was fine. So that's what I
did...
I'm not sure you would be able to get the tank on if they were
dimpled. That is a pretty rigid assembly and I don't know if it could
be flexed enough to let the #8 dimples clear the flange on the spar.
That much flexing might also not be the best thing for the integrity of the
baffle seam.
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | Re: landing and position lights -Reply -Reply |
Steve's kit installed easy and the lense fit perfectly (wrt leading edge
curvature). Alignment of the light is much easier (in fact simple given
Steve's CAD drawing and installation manual) to do if you drill all of the
mounting holes prior to skinning the leading edge. Locating the cut out
and retaining channel was easy. If I recall correctly, I laid the preformed
plexiglass lense over my leading edge (now riveted on) aligned with the
cut-out made in the leading edge skin between the two outboard tip ribs.
Next I snugged the retaining channel against the plexiglass and
confirmed the top edge of the channel was perpendicular to the skin
edge and then drilled the channel to the top of the skin. I then transferred
the lense and channel to the interior of the leading edge, and applied
pressure to the plexiglass with a 20 lb. bag of lead shot and drilled the
lense to the skin using predrilled pilot holes laid out around the lense
opening according to the CAD plans.
I think I paid $125 for the kit.
>>> DWentz @ SMTP (Don Wentz)
{ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com} 06/21/95 05:07pm >>>
What did you have to pay for Steve's installation?
I like his lense mount, was it easy to do?
How did you align the bar that it slips under?
thx, dw
I purchased and installed Steve Barnard's Langing/Taxi Light Kit. It
installs in the leading edge, between the last two outboard tip ribs. I am
happy with the results, and Steve is a super guy to do business with. I
am still constructing my plane so I haven't actually used the light yet,
but all looks good.
>>> MKURTLKE @ SMTP (MR KURT L KEILBACH)
{mail.prodigy.com!NAEK31A(at)matronics.com} 06/21/95 11:22am >>>
I'm at the point where I need to decide what kind of lights I'm going
to install. I've seen the leading edge landing lightsthat you mount
inboard the position lights.They look pretty good. I've also seen the
ones with the landing light mounted inthe wing tip with the position
light (at sun & fun). Any advice, pro's & con's would be useful.
Thanks.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a
( All wing skins and ribs drilled, removed for deburr & dimple. )
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Rivet loads - update, more data (technical) |
Randall,
... I forgot to mention that all of these figures are valid for
2024-T3 material, and probably would not be valid for other grades of
Aluminium. Here is some more data of interest, that should be added to
complete the previous posting.
Following is the equivalent data for YIELD strength (in this case, defined
as a permanent set of 0.005 inch)
YIELD strength of 3/32 MS20426AD flush rivets in 2024-T3 (values in lbs.)
Sheet thickness Dimpled Countersunk
0.032 209 132
0.040 209 153
0.063 209 213
This is actually a worse % loss than the ultimate loads, giving a 33% loss
in 0.032, and a 27% loss in 0.040. The previous post's figures were for
ultimate strength (failure), while the above are those loads that would
cause a small permanent set.
YIELD strength of 1/8 MS20426AD flush rivets in 2024-T3 (values in lbs.)
Sheet thickness Dimpled Countersunk
0.040 367 231 (*)
0.063 506 321
(*) this is a "knife edge condition", and not approved.
... keep those loads in limits ... Gil Alexander
>Gil:
>
>Good post! Finally some HARD DATA on machine countersinking vs
>dimpling. I _knew_ there was a good reason I've been plowing through
>all this chatter (especially MINE :-). Ok if I steal that for my
>"Portland RVators" newsletter?
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
Randall,
No problem .... the data is copyright free (paid for by our
tax $$$) ... just give credit to the guy that dug it out :^)
...... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose tank rib doubler |
> Question: Is there
> or is there not a nose rib doubler that fits on the inside of the
>inboard tank ribs to serve to strengthen where the T-405 fitting
>attaches to the inboard rib?
It's not shown on the plans. I'm putting one in. I forgot what thickness
I used, but it's the same as the rib mat'l. Mine aren't structural
in any way, they're just there to plug the tooling hole and get a
better seal on the nose. Now that I think about it, I think the
intructions mention something about using a plate to cover the tooling hole.
Maybe this is what they're referring to, but it's not too clear.
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Nose tank rib doubler |
At the time my manual was written, there was no mention in it of fuel
tank nose rib doublers, but I think they are shown in some of the
photos. In the RVator a while back Ken Scott wrote up Art Chard's
step-by-step assembly procedure for doing the fuel tanks, and the
doublers are specified in there as .063 for the inboard and .040 for
the outboard. Van's has now incorporated that into their kits, I don't
know if the manual has been updated with them yet.
Note that the photos also show a small 'L' shaped bracket with a hole
through it to keep the pickup tube from rotating when torquing the
fitting (or at any other time). I don't believe this is in the manual
either, but it seems like a "must have".
Randall Henderson
RV-6
PS. I HIGHLY recommend getting the aforementioned step-by-step fuel tank
assembly instructions. It should be in "14 years of the RVator". Or Frank
Justice's instructions, which include all of the same information, and
a fair amount more.
>
> Just in the process of preparing the tank ribs of my RV-4. Question: Is there
> or is there not a nose rib doubler that fits on the inside of the inboard tank
> ribs to serve to strengthen where the T-405 fitting attaches to the inboard rib?
> My drawing 17 does not show this but the 2/95 issue of the RVator shoes the
> availability of a prepunched doubler (p.12). What is the thickness of this
> doubler?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Doug Weiler, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank dimples |
Dave, on my -6, I dimpled EVERY hole, including the baffle/skin area, with
the exception of the forward set of tank/spar screw holes. Those holes go
thru the .032 skin and the .040 baffle, and machine countersinking them was
both necessary and has caused no problems in the last 170hrs of flying. You
DO need to countersink some of the holes in the spar webs where the nutplates
go, but that is not on the skin itself.
For general tank info, I didn't etch my tank skins, rather, I scotchbrite
scuffed the rib flanges and about a 2" wide area along the skin rivet lines
(the balance of the skins were left 'shiny'). After riveting/prosealing in
the ribs, we 'painted' the slosh compound onto the 'joints', staying mostly
on the proseal. After installing the baffle, we sloshed, trying to tip the
tank in such a way that the slosh was kept in the rear baffle area only. I
don't know if I would slosh again, but I think scuffing the skin and only
putting it on the proseal will keep it from peeling. Cleanliness and PROPER
cleaners will finish the job right.
>Doug Weiler also asked:
>Just in the process of preparing the tank ribs of my RV-4. Question:
>Is there or is there not a nose rib doubler that fits on the inside of
>the inboard tank ribs to serve to strengthen where the T-405 fitting
>attaches to the inboard rib?
>My drawing 17 does not show this but the 2/95 issue of the RVator shoes
>the availability of a prepunched doubler (p.12). What is the thickness
>of this doubler?
>Many thanks, Doug Weiler, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, Doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
For those with the tanks yet to do, I recommend you call Van's and order the
new pre-cut/punched cover plates/rings. They not only save a lot of work,
but they include some nose-rib re-inforcements that will really improve the
tanks (we have been making/installing these in the 'local' area since Art
Chard showed them to us 3 years ago). They strengthen the attach of the
nose bracket at the inboard end, AND, provide a much cleaner area to hold
proseal at the nose. They are made of .062. Also, some 3/8 x 3/4" pieces
of .016, bent at the middle, can be suck into proseal at the corners prior
to installing the baffle. they improve the hold of proseal in those areas
also, where there tend to be gaps.
My senders and panels are all prosealed in. 170hrs, no leaks!
The Duck, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
>Spent some time staring at my fuel tanks yesterday. The plans (RV-4)
>specifically call for countersinking some of the screw holes at the
>tank/spar attach points. This is the only place I can think of that
>_specifically_ calls for countersinking, but it looks like that just takes
>too much
>material away. Has anyone/everyone dimpled all of the fuel tank screw holes?
>Dave Hyde
>nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Fwd: re: Fuel tank dimples |
---- Begin Forwarded Message
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(4.1/SMI-4.1)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 13:25:55 EDT
From: blink.ho.att.com!twg(at)matronics.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Subject: re: Fuel tank dimples
My set of plans showing the fuel tanks were cut off at the top and I
didn't know I was supposed to machine countersink these holes. I
therfore dimpled them. The problem I encountered was a not-to-good fit
between the tw
o pieces when I prosealed. I ended up having to cut 5" holes through
the bottom of each bay, heavily proseal the inside seal and then fit
and proseal plates to cover each 5" hole. This proceedure wes shown in
one RVator
for solving slosh problems. I would not recommend dimple
countersinking this area.
Ross Mickey
RV6-A
> Spent some time staring at my fuel tanks yesterday. The plans (RV-4)
> specifically call for countersinking some of the screw holes at the
tank/spar
> attach points. This is the only place I can think of that
_specifically_
> calls for countersinking, but it looks like that just takes too much
> material away. Has anyone/everyone dimpled all of the fuel tank
screw holes?
I called Van's on this very issue - it seemed to me the material
thickness was way too thin to even consider countersinking for #8
screws.
Their answer was that since the skin and rear tank baffle are riveted
together, they effectively form one thick piece as far as the attach
screws
are concerned, and that countersinking them was fine. So that's what I
did...
I'm not sure you would be able to get the tank on if they were
dimpled. That is a pretty rigid assembly and I don't know if it could
be flexed enough to let the #8 dimples clear the flange on the spar.
That much flexing might also not be the best thing for the integrity of
the
baffle seam.
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ai105(at)detroit.freenet.org (Jack Haviland) |
| Subject: | Michigan Wing Flyin |
My previous posting on this subject contained the wrong date.
The correct day is this coming Sunday, June 25th.
Sorry about the error. Feel free to contact me if you need more
information (810-629-1870)
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kingm(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Re: Fly-in update |
>After getting partially rained-out of our Scappoose RV flyin, and not
>going to Salmon Arm last weekend due to weather, it looks like it is
>finally going to be nice this weekend.
>
>Someone had mentioned a flyin at "Skagit County" for this weekend. Any
>details? Also, is that 'BVS'? I may make a run up there in my -6 if it
>sounds like a good event....
>
The 'fly-in' is actually a Civil Air Patrol Breakfast at Bayview Airport
(Skagit County Airport). Last year there were several RV's in attendance
along with a number of other homebuilts and old war birds. This year they
are adding a car show too. Breakfast was $6 and benefited CAP. It runs
from 8am to noon. The weather forecast for Skagit County is CAVU. Everyone
is welcome.
Monte King
Oak Harbor, Wa
RV-6A
working on fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose tank rib doubler |
I've been having a discussion on just this subject with Frank Justice.
The doubler shown in the RVAtor has the part number T-410. It does not,
however, appear in my RV6 plans (plans that were shipped with my wing kit
that included the pre-punched skins and the T-410 doubler in question.
And it is only mentioned in the construction manual in one place, and
not by part number.
The doubler is .063 thick, and mounts on the inside of the end ribs
of the tank.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Alternators & Starters |
Just curious what alternators and starters have been used by RV
builders, and any noteworthy experiences. Have noise filters been used
-- (i.e. I have encountered high levels of alternator whine in some
automotive alternators).
Would appreciate any comments and experiences. pls reply to me
directly (bill(at)sfu.ca) and I'll summarize for the list.
Thanks
Bill
--
Bill Baines
Surrey, British Columbia, Canada
bill(at)sfu.ca, (604) 535-2714 or 2709, VE7FML
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Double yer noses. |
Doug Weiler wrote:
> Is there or is there not a nose rib doubler ...
I responded:
>I'm putting one in. I forgot what thickness I used...
>Mine aren't structural in any way...
Randall Henderson responded:
>...the doublers are specified in there as .063 for the inboard
>and .040 for the outboard.
Don Wentz responded:
>...nose-rib re-inforcements that will really improve the tanks...
>They are made of .062.
and finally, Dave Barnhart rubbed it in furter :)
>The doubler is .063 thick, and mounts on the inside of the end ribs
>of the tank.
Dang. I guess I'll be re-doing mine this afternoon. Good thing
I haven't riveted anything yet.
What's the purpose of them? I recognize the need to fill gaps
in the nose, but 0.062/3 sounds like overkill. Does this area
really need this kind of reinforcement? (This is really
a rhetorical question, as I'm going to do it anyway just to keep
up with what should've been a plans change.)
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John E. Brick" <p01315(at)psilink.com> |
| Subject: | RV-4 Horiz Stab Dimensions |
For you poor slobs not already teaching your wife to fly, I'll close out
this subject with an answer from Van's.
My EMAIL to Van's:
>From the rear spar to the skin leading edge at the root rib, the plans
show a measurement of 20 5/8 inches. I just have the skeleton clecoed
up but this dimension looks like it will turn out to be about 20 7/8.
I checked sheet 8a for rib dimensions. HS-404 is supposed to be 8.25
inches in length. Mine are 8.5 inches, measured by clamping into the
skin to get the nose radius which is on the drawing but lopped off the
actual rib. Modifying the rib lengths does not look like a good idea because,
as they now sit, HS-404, HS-407, HS-406 ribs form a nice straight line along
their leading edge from root to tip.
Another problem dimension is the distance between the forward and rear
spars at the centerline; the plans show 12 1/4 whereas mine is almost 12 3/8.
The outboard angle of the root ribs seem to be entirely determined by
the holes drilled in the rear and fwd spars for HS-405, and mine are
"exactly" 3 5/16 and 4 9/16 from the centerline, as specified respectively.
Right angle geometry would have root ribs leaning outward at 5.8 degrees
relative to the centerline which is what I have. And the HS-405 ribs
are very close to the 12.286 length shown on sheet 8a.
The distance between the leading edge skins at the root should be 10
3/8 inches which is about what I have, so the angles seem correct.
So three discrepancies:
1. 12 3/8 between the spars instead of 12 1/4.
2. 20 7/8 (estimated) instead of 20 5/8 from rear spar to L.E. skin.
3. HS-404 ribs 8.5 instead of 8.25.
If I fixed #1, #2 would solve itself... but there is really no way to
fix that, short of modifying HS_405 which appears to be correct in length.
If the HS-404 ribs were actually 8.25, it seems like that would yield
the 20 5/8 dimension.
Do I have a problem here? I hate to bother you so early in the program
but I don't want to shrug off errors this early either.
***********************
Van's reply:
The only # that is in any way critical is the 12 1/4" dimension
between the fron and rear spars. I know from experience with this
attachment that 12 5/16 will work fine, however. The reason for some of
your discrepancy is that we have a variation in any part of +/- 1/16 for
reasons of grain, grain direction and hardness of the pressed
parts...overcoming some of this can be accomplished by just slightly
tightening or reducing the bend radius of some of the rib flanges.
Drop ne a note if you have problems...Tom @ Van's
********************
Me again. Whew, I feel better. Thanks Tom.
John Brick (RV-4)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose tank rib doubler |
RE>Nose tank rib doubler 6/23/95 9:37 AM
Doug,
the doubler you mention is not a manditory part... I started putting them in Phlogistion
wings in '90. it adds ridigity imeadately where as if you don't use
one you will note the tank/airframe mounting bracket is a little loose... that
was discomforting to me so I started making a small doubler... about 6 rivets
total... thickness was "not very" ie: .060. proseal the bageebers outta
the thing too.
Doug Miner~
--------------------------------------
Date: 6/22/95 12:30 PM
From: Doug Weiler
Just in the process of preparing the tank ribs of my RV-4. Question: Is there
or is there not a nose rib doubler that fits on the inside of the inboard tank
ribs to serve to strengthen where the T-405 fitting attaches to the inboard rib?
My drawing 17 does not show this but the 2/95 issue of the RVator shoes the
availability of a prepunched doubler (p.12). What is the thickness of this
doubler?
Many thanks,
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
From: Doug Weiler <swamp.mn.org!Doug.Weiler(at)matronics.COM>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:05:06 -0500
Subject: Nose tank rib doubler
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Double yer noses. |
I think the inboard doubler, while closing up the gaps at the nose of
the rib, is also a good idea as a reinforcement for the tank attach
point. I keep thinking about the accident reported in the RVator a
while back, in which a guy did a low pass and steep climing turn to
pull out, and the wing folded, and they found the tank, mostly intact,
off in the bushes, with the tank attach angle UN-DRILLED. It sounded
like that was probably why the wing folded, which says something about
having a good strong attach at that point.
I would guess that the outboard plate only serves to close up the gaps
at the nose of the rib.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> Dang. I guess I'll be re-doing mine this afternoon. Good thing
> I haven't riveted anything yet.
> What's the purpose of them? I recognize the need to fill gaps
> in the nose, but 0.062/3 sounds like overkill. Does this area
> really need this kind of reinforcement? (This is really
> a rhetorical question, as I'm going to do it anyway just to keep
> up with what should've been a plans change.)
>
> Dave Hyde
> nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Double yer noses. |
Dave,
... I am almost reluctant to post this (... donning flame proof
jacket...), but there have been reports of working of the rivets holding
the forward wing bracket to the tank root rib from the Bakerfield bunch.
As I see it, there are two reasons for this doubler.
1. This is mentioned in my plans as a "may be needed" item -- to provide
improved _gap_ filling for the Proseal at the rib nose radius area. This
was more important with the old ribs and non-rolled skins. The newly
shipped wings (feb 95) I have seen have an almost perfect fit in this area,
so the doubler must be more of a "fillet area increaser" for the Proseal,
instead of an actual "gap filler" like my much older kit.
2. Improved strength in this area. This was the "Bakersfield mod." and
may be caused by "exuberant" aerobatics with large HP engines. The loads
on this bracket are quite large if you have a fairly full load of fuel, and
a look at the plans will easily show the tank rib/bracket attachment to be
the weak spot. The Bakerfield guys had trouble with RV4s with their
smaller fuel tanks, and the RV6 loads have to be higher with the larger
fuel capacity.
In light of item 2, I added a doubler, made it fit really well in
the first 2 to 3 inches of the LE, but extended it back to about 1/2 way
across the first re-inforcing ring of the tank root rib. This is quite a
bit longer than the doubler provided by Vans. I believe I used 0.040.
Van may use 0.063, but this is being thrifty since it is actually the cut
out from the stamping of the tank access re-inforcing ring, essentially a
no cost way of providing this doubler to new builders, since the ring and
the doubler are creating in one stamping process.
To improve the LE fit, I fitted the doubler in after I had riveted
the root rib to the tank skin. It's easier to get at the 1/8 rivets this
way, and the thick tank bracket isn't in the way when you have to get at
the 3/32 rivets around the skin LE. You just have to make sure that no
Proseal fillet is made on the inside of this root rib at this stage. These
fillets can be created when the doubler and bracket are riveted and
Prosealed on later.
I have seen no official plans change on this subject, just notes
and "fixes" from other builders. I guess from all of the previous comments
the drawings aren't updated either.
If you don't have a doubler, I recommend putting one in of some
sort, and I say slightly bigger is better in this case.
.... keep on Prosealing ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
PS ... flaming responses will have to wait until I finish a two week
soaring vacation in N. Calif. :^)
>Doug Weiler wrote:
>> Is there or is there not a nose rib doubler ...
>
>I responded:
>>I'm putting one in. I forgot what thickness I used...
>>Mine aren't structural in any way...
>
>Randall Henderson responded:
>>...the doublers are specified in there as .063 for the inboard
>>and .040 for the outboard.
>
>Don Wentz responded:
>>...nose-rib re-inforcements that will really improve the tanks...
>>They are made of .062.
>
>and finally, Dave Barnhart rubbed it in furter :)
>>The doubler is .063 thick, and mounts on the inside of the end ribs
>>of the tank.
>
>Dang. I guess I'll be re-doing mine this afternoon. Good thing
>I haven't riveted anything yet.
>What's the purpose of them? I recognize the need to fill gaps
>in the nose, but 0.062/3 sounds like overkill. Does this area
>really need this kind of reinforcement? (This is really
>a rhetorical question, as I'm going to do it anyway just to keep
>up with what should've been a plans change.)
>
>Dave Hyde
>nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | gps, moving map display |
| From: | "Dell M. Auer" <auer(at)teleport.com> |
-- [ From: Dell M. Auer * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Greetings all,
Please excuse me for using this list as a form, but I have a question? Do
you think there would be a use for a GPS with a moving map display, that
would look like a WAC or Sectional. This device would not be a lap top
computer, but would fit in the instrument panel and would be able to see
from the left or right seat's . The display would use touch screen type
display. You would point at your departure point and then point at your
distination. It would give you course, fuel burn, time enroute. This
device could also act as a auto pilot.
You can reach me here thru the list or at auer(at)teleport.com
Tanks in advance
Dell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Scotchbrite wheels |
Well, my back-ordered Scotchbrite wheel arrived from Avery yesterday. Now,
it looks like there are a bunch of different TYPES of Scotchbrite wheels.
For instance, I saw something at the place I bought my primer that was also
labeled as a Scotchbrite wheel. However, it was only about 3 inches across
and looked like a bunch of round Scotch scouring bads held together by an
arbor. The one from Avery looks a lot more like a 6-inch grinding wheel,
although the texture is different.
So, does someone want to enlighten me? From some of the postings, it sounds
like I actually have a variety of choices of the wheels that will work for
me.
Tonight, I drill my drilling template for the rear spar flanges. Then I'll
drill the rear spar flanges themselves. Hopefully, I can finish the rear
spar this weekend. It *looks* like I'm through the slowest work.
Guess I'll see how accurate my predictions are.
Thanks, all.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ai105(at)detroit.freenet.org (Jack Haviland) |
| Subject: | Michigan Wing Flyin Location etc. |
Sorry I was not home when some of you called to ask where the
Flyin this Sunday (JUNE 25th!) will be held. It's at Dalton
Airfield (3DA) located ~6nm NNE of Flint International and is
under the outer ring of their Class C airspace. Flint Approach
will be happy to provide vectors if you have any difficulty
locating it (they normally use 118.8 or 128.5). It's not
difficult to locate from the air or ground since the main paved
runway 18-36 is 2500' long and the North end ends at Pierson Rd.
which is a major exit from the US-23, I-75 expressway. I'll be
home the rest of friday night and some one with knowledge of
the field and the flyin plans will be around most of Saturday if
I leave for a couple of hours. Hope the weather holds!
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KWilli8027(at)aol.com |
rv6-a builder in austin, tx has room for week of oshkosh. will share w/
someone for a ride to oshkosh. thought i'd be ready by now but with painting
this week i must be realistic and postpone the trip in my rv until next year.
p.s. yes i will split the gas. rsvp to KWilli8027(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | homecoming info needed |
OK- I admit it, I let my RVator subscription lapse. I have promised Diane
(wife-person) we could get out of Texas this September. The Van's homecoming
would be her first choice of anywhere in the world - well almost. In order to
keep her happy I will grudgingly fly her there.
Can anyone provide info on when the flyin is? Lodging suggestions, activities
and dates? Is it hard to get rooms and transportation? Any info will be
appreciated!
Bob Seibert
RV-6 N691RV (serial number 20691)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gear leg fairings |
Does anyone know where to get the gear leg intersection fairings (gear to
wheelpants, gear to fuselage)?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Blaine S. Nay" <73427.523(at)compuserve.com> |
Please remove my name form internet mailing list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument discussion |
I'm not sure if this got posted to the list, my E-mail says that it was
returned unsent. If this appeared before, my apologies.
>CAVU - Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited
>CAVOK - Ceiling And Visibility OK
>WOXOF - Indefinite Ceiling Zero Obscured Visibility Zero Fog. Murk, gloom,
>sit in hangar with a cup of coffee and wait.
>
>At the risk of being flamed, I would not try flying in any sort of IMC
>(Instrument Meterological Conditions) without a full set of gyros for
>attitude and heading, with at least an electric T&B or turn coordinator as a
>back up. Life is too short to bet it on one electrical wing leveler.
> Thirty-six years and 16,000 plus hours of flying experience tells me that.
> Accident statistics are full of stories of pilots without instrument
ratings
>and proper IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) equipment in good working order,
who
>flew into IMC and died as a result.
>
>I plan to equip my RV-6A with a full IFR panel and dual nav/coms with glide
>slope, even though I don't plan on flying hard IFR with the plane. It is
>there just for the occasional overcast day when I want to get on top or
>descend through an overcast to get down to terra firma. The RV is a little
>to quick to be a good instrument platform. I plan to practice quite a few
>ILS's (Instrument Landing System approaches) before I attempt one for real.
> Jim Cone, Editor, Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: eyeball vent source sought |
>
>Anyone have a good source for those eyeball type vents? Wick's used to
>have a nice, plastic model (much like in the overheads of most airliners
>these days) for $25 each but it is no longer available. Aircraft Spruce
>has the aluminum ones.
>
>If someone makes them for the airlines I should be able to buy them
>somewhere but none of my aviation toy sources seem to carry them. Strange
>as they are about 1/2 the price of the aluminum ones and, at least as far
>as the picture in Wick's catalog goes, smaller to mount as well.
>
>I don't like the Whisperflo units (too big) but am frustrated at not being
>able to find what I want.
I have flown three different RV's and have found the smaller eyeball vents do
not provide adequate ventilation, especially on the ground. If you plan to
fly in warmer areas, you may be sorry if you don't use the larger wisperflow
vents. The heat inside the cockpit with the canopy closed or even just
lowered gets nearly unbearable in short order if there is any sunshine from
the great heat lamp in the sky. One criticism of the wisperflow vents is
that they can't be closed completely. This can be solved easily by removing
the butterfly and sanding the flat surface and the edge to a dull finish.
Wipe a thin coat of vasiline on the inside of the the vent body. Carefully
install the butterfly making sure that no vasiline gets on it. Close the
valve and use black RTV to put a 1/8" layer on the sanded surface of the
butterfly, spreading it out to the body of the vent, (the vasiline prevents
adhesion to the body). When the RTV is fully cured in about 24 hours, open
the valve and trim any excess RTV from the edge of the butterfly so that it
is about 1/8" thick. The valve will now close completely air tight.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Lightening Holes (chatter) |
Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
the flap brace? I have been using mine to make works of art. Unfortunately,
this has become so engrossing for me it has taken time away from my plane
building (oh well, they say the great artists don't do it because they want
to, they do it because they have to). I've also used them for Christmas
tree ornaments and I tried to put them in sacks to use as weights (of course
they weren't heavy enough to be much good).
Any ideas?
Ted
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JDelveau(at)aol.com |
Here is a question you don's see alot-
I am finishing up the empanage and the wing kit is supposed to arrive in 3
weeks. I am working in my basement and I am thinking of installing a
walk-out stair/doorway since I have no other exit that will accomodate the
wings. Does anybody have experience with taking a fuse out through such an
exit. I'm talking about one of those two door openings with steps that come
up from the basement to an outside exit. Currently I won't even be able to
get the wings out unless I rip put a basement window and a few blocks from
the wall around it.
Thanks in advance for the help and for all the other hints and tips
everybody. (I kind of just sit back and take it all in, saving most for
future reference.)
Jim Delveau RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dick Steffens" <res6246(at)des.dukepower.com> |
I have a question for you guys already flying RVs.
What are your thoughts about aileron trim? I have one aileron left to build and
I am wondering if it is worth the trouble to install a trim tab. I've seen RVs
with and without aileron trim and it looks cleaner without, but how about
flying?
Dick Steffens
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Double yer noses. -Reply |
Dang. I guess I'll be re-doing mine this
afternoon. Good thing
I haven't riveted anything yet.
What's the purpose of them? I recognize
the need to fill gaps in the nose, but
0.062/3 sounds like overkill. Does this
area really need this kind of
reinforcement? (This is really a rhetorical
question, as I'm going to do it anyway just
to keep up with what should've been a plans
change.)
Seemed like it to me also, I can see the
need at the root end to back up the tank
attach bracket but at the outboard end I
just used .025 or .032 I can't remember
which. All it is doing is decreasing the
amount of proseal and providing some thing
solid to backup the proseal in the small
1/8" nose to skin gap. I would think that
only a few lbs of force are created by the
fuel sloshing out board.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Fwd: homecoming info needed |
---- Begin Forwarded Message
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
From: aol.com!Bobseib(at)matronics.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
-0400
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 23:30:30 -0400
Subject: homecoming info needed
RV Homecoming is September 1-4. Transportation and lodging are no
problem. I would suggest calling Van's for details or re-subscribing
to the RV Ator as the details have not yet been printed.
OK- I admit it, I let my RVator subscription lapse. I have promised
Diane
(wife-person) we could get out of Texas this September. The Van's
homecoming
would be her first choice of anywhere in the world - well almost. In
order to
keep her happy I will grudgingly fly her there.
Can anyone provide info on when the flyin is? Lodging suggestions,
activities
and dates? Is it hard to get rooms and transportation? Any info will be
appreciated!
Bob Seibert
RV-6 N691RV (serial number 20691)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 TLump(at)aol.com wrote:
> Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
> the flap brace?
I deburr them and give them to my 6-year-old son. He thinks they
are cool.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
I was reading a back-issue of the RVator and saw a reference
to the RV-5.
Does anyone know what this was?
| Date: | Jun 26, 1995 |
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: eyeball vent source sought |
This is good. Does anyone have input on good air inlet
locations? I have heard that some locations don't allow
good air flow.
MikeWilson, -4 onthe fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Fwd: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days |
---- Begin Forwarded Message
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:32:33 -0700
From: netcom.com!Mailer-Daemon(at)matronics.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
from uucp@localhost
----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us!wgarrett (unrecoverable error)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us!wgarrett... Deferred: Connection timed out with
mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us.
Message could not be delivered for 3 days
Message will be deleted from queue
----- Original message follows -----
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:41:47 -0700
From: ix.netcom.com!rmickey(at)matronics.com (Ross Mickey )
Subject: Fwd: re: Fuel tank dimples
---- Begin Forwarded Message
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
(4.1/SMI-4.1)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 13:25:55 EDT
From: blink.ho.att.com!twg(at)matronics.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Subject: re: Fuel tank dimples
My set of plans showing the fuel tanks were cut off at the top and I
didn't know I was supposed to machine countersink these holes. I
therfore dimpled them. The problem I encountered was a not-to-good fit
between the tw
o pieces when I prosealed. I ended up having to cut 5" holes through
the bottom of each bay, heavily proseal the inside seal and then fit
and proseal plates to cover each 5" hole. This proceedure wes shown in
one RVator
for solving slosh problems. I would not recommend dimple
countersinking this area.
Ross Mickey
RV6-A
> Spent some time staring at my fuel tanks yesterday. The plans (RV-4)
> specifically call for countersinking some of the screw holes at the
tank/spar
> attach points. This is the only place I can think of that
_specifically_
> calls for countersinking, but it looks like that just takes too much
> material away. Has anyone/everyone dimpled all of the fuel tank
screw holes?
I called Van's on this very issue - it seemed to me the material
thickness was way too thin to even consider countersinking for #8
screws.
Their answer was that since the skin and rear tank baffle are riveted
together, they effectively form one thick piece as far as the attach
screws
are concerned, and that countersinking them was fine. So that's what I
did...
I'm not sure you would be able to get the tank on if they were
dimpled. That is a pretty rigid assembly and I don't know if it could
be flexed enough to let the #8 dimples clear the flange on the spar.
That much flexing might also not be the best thing for the integrity of
the
baffle seam.
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
I used them for leveling shims under a pool table.
Of cousre, builders now don't have this worry :-).
dw
Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
the flap brace? I have been using mine to make works of art. Unfortunately,
this has become so engrossing for me it has taken time away from my plane
building (oh well, they say the great artists don't do it because they want
to, they do it because they have to). I've also used them for Christmas
tree ornaments and I tried to put them in sacks to use as weights (of course
they weren't heavy enough to be much good).
Any ideas?
Ted
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Bysinger <john.bysinger(at)mccaw.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Basement Exit. (Chatter) |
I did hear of a builder in a similar situation (he was building a biplane of
some sort.) He built the airplane in his basement that did NOT have an
outside door and tore part of a wall down temporarily when he moved the
airplane to it's hangar. Supposedly this was cheaper than putting in a
doorway. But on the other hand I don't think that he had concrete or block
walls, two by fours are easier to tear down and replace!
John.Bysinger(at)McCaw.com
----------
From: JDelveau
Subject: Basement Exit.
Date: Monday, June 26, 1995 8:34AM
Here is a question you don's see alot-
I am finishing up the empanage and the wing kit is supposed to arrive in 3
weeks. I am working in my basement and I am thinking of installing a
walk-out stair/doorway since I have no other exit that will accomodate the
wings. Does anybody have experience with taking a fuse out through such an
exit. I'm talking about one of those two door openings with steps that come
up from the basement to an outside exit. Currently I won't even be able to
get the wings out unless I rip put a basement window and a few blocks from
the wall around it.
Thanks in advance for the help and for all the other hints and tips
everybody. (I kind of just sit back and take it all in, saving most for
future reference.)
Jim Delveau RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | steveha(at)mdhost.cse.TEK.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim |
<9506260947.AA00912(at)des.dukepower.com>
> I have a question for you guys already flying RVs.
>
> What are your thoughts about aileron trim? I have one aileron left to build
> and
> I am wondering if it is worth the trouble to install a trim tab. I've seen R
> Vs
> with and without aileron trim and it looks cleaner without, but how about
> flying?
>
> Dick Steffens
> RV-6
>
>
Well, I'm in the unique position of flying an RV-6 and also completing
my RV-4.
I put the electric aileron trim in my RV-4 before I knew any better!
The RV-6 has the spring bias manual trim, it works great. Simple too.
As you mentioned, you also don't have the ugly little trim tab hanging
off the back. If you really are sold on the idea of a "coolie hat"
switch, or some electric version, I think I would use the servo to
adjust the spring tension from the manual trim version. That way you
get the best of both....
Steve Harris
DPL HW Engineering
627-2454 Voice
627-5548 Fax
email: Steven.L.Harris(at)TEK.COM email for PGP public key
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WinterByte(at)aol.com |
I am a beginner. I've completed the Horz. & Vert Stabilizers. Working on
rudder now.
This is for any builders, even greener than myself. All more experienced
builders can remember back when -
Dimpling/Countersinking - I countersunk the Horz.Stab. and dimpled
the Vert. Stab.
Countersinking - Follow plans and countersink radius on a flat surface.
Don't try to sink the leading edge of Horz. Stab. on skelton.
I did and ended up with a big hole.
Dimpling - Put the male die on the bottom of the bench dimpling tool.
Secure the tool and make up some table supports for moving material through
the tool.
Don't look at the skins the wrong way or you'l end up with scratchs.
Get a roll of duct tape.
Riveting - Hammer the big rivets in the skelton. Squeezing is hard to do and
get a perfect rivet. I ended up punching out a bunch of smiley
faces on Horz. Stab. spar.
Priming - I am priming all the insides with MarHide in a can. Plan to
try the epoxy based primer. Priming of Alcad skins is probably
overkill, since I live in the dry intermountain west, but I expect the
plane to be around a long long time.
I am watching this mailing list for comments on Phlogiston Spar and
Van's prepunched wing skins. I read about the guy that was clamping skins to
spars, clamping ribs to angle, marking center lines, etc. Sounds as if each
rib angle may have to be customized to Phlogiston Spar.
Moving up
learing curve.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
> > Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> > aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
> > the flap brace?
Eat'em. No. I've been keeping all my lightening hole cutouts and spar taper
cutoffs in a bag just to see how much it weighs (how much did I save...) at
the end (thanks for the idea, Earl). I haven't cut the flap brace yet and
there's about 3-4 lb in the bag so far.
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
> Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
>the flap brace?
> Any ideas?
>
>Ted
>RV-4
It looks like they would make great pizza cutters. Since they're aluminum,
they wouldn't stay sharp very long, but what the hell, I've got plenty!
Russell Duffy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John H Henderson <John.H.Henderson(at)Eng.Auburn.EDU> |
>
>
> I was reading a back-issue of the RVator and saw a reference
> to the RV-5.
>
> Does anyone know what this was?
>
If I recall what I was told when I visited Van's, it was a swing-wing
motorglider powered by a Rotax. I saw it hanging in the rafters
at Sunset.
John Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
David,
Hang them in your fruit trees to frighten birds away!! :-)
Works for me!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Lightening Holes (chatter)
Date: 26/6/95 8:31 AM
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 TLump(at)aol.com wrote:
> Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
> the flap brace?
I deburr them and give them to my 6-year-old son. He thinks they
are cool.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michelle J Tinckler <mjt(at)unixg.ubc.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Basement Exit. |
I have 3 times now, opened up my basement doorway with a circular saw,
taken off the siding and door to get a fuselage out. I may put in a big
double door some day. It all worked out ok, siding still looks good, and
I have some gypsum wallboard that is only a few years old that I will put
in place one day to make the wall look good again. My door closes a bit
funny, but does close and lock. I figure that the aviation requirements
to mod my house are far too important to worry about what wife and
visitors say. Go for it and Happy Building..Austin Vancouver B.C.
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 aol.com!JDelveau(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Here is a question you don's see alot-
>
> I am finishing up the empanage and the wing kit is supposed to arrive in 3
> weeks. I am working in my basement and I am thinking of installing a
> walk-out stair/doorway since I have no other exit that will accomodate the
> wings. Does anybody have experience with taking a fuse out through such an
> exit. I'm talking about one of those two door openings with steps that come
> up from the basement to an outside exit. Currently I won't even be able to
> get the wings out unless I rip put a basement window and a few blocks from
> the wall around it.
>
> Thanks in advance for the help and for all the other hints and tips
> everybody. (I kind of just sit back and take it all in, saving most for
> future reference.)
>
> Jim Delveau RV-6A
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Basement Exit. |
Jim, Gordon Comfort of Tecumseh, Mi. did that a while back, had to be a
very tight sqeeze, having seen the hole and basement. Assume he knows
exactly what size to make the hole, his was for a RV4...
Gordon & Marge Comfort
6408 Rogers Hwy.
Tecumseh, Mi. 49286
517-423-7421
Tell them Jeff from Colorado sez Hi!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim |
G'Day Dick,
Having clocked up a hundred hours or so I feel that the spring loaded
lever type that Van's sells is more that adequate for inflight changes
due to uneven fuel burn or fat passengers. No external trim tabs
should be required. If you are constantly flying one wing low I would
suggest adjusting the flaps slightly. you would be amazed what a
couple of turns on the flap pushrod does!!
Happy RVing!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Aileron Trim
AARNet_Gateway
Date: 26/6/95 9:52 AM
I have a question for you guys already flying RVs.
What are your thoughts about aileron trim? I have one aileron left to build and
I am wondering if it is worth the trouble to install a trim tab. I've seen RVs
with and without aileron trim and it looks cleaner without, but how about
flying?
Dick Steffens
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
No great ideas here, but can't you just hear the later kit fellas asking
"what leftover discs???" (buncha pre-drilled, precut wusses!)
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 aol.com!TLump(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
> the flap brace? I have been using mine to make works of art. Unfortunately,
> this has become so engrossing for me it has taken time away from my plane
> building (oh well, they say the great artists don't do it because they want
> to, they do it because they have to). I've also used them for Christmas
> tree ornaments and I tried to put them in sacks to use as weights (of course
> they weren't heavy enough to be much good).
> Any ideas?
>
> Ted
> RV-4
>
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | empennage controls, ideas for discussion, |
Hi guys,
I was thinking over a couple of ideas and wanted a little
feedback before deciding to take them any further.
1. Spring biased rudder trim on an RV6, has anyone done this???
If I recall correctly the cherokee 140's I learnt to fly in
had them, I was considering something similar, maybe even getting
an assembly from a wrecked 140 & adapting it.
2. Spring biased elevator trim without trim tab.??
And the controversial one
3. Gluing on the empennage control skin stiffeners with structural
adhesive! (The type used in commercial aviation.)
(actually its to late for me to consider this as i've already built
my control surfaces up as per the plans but I'm curious to hear
opinions on this. )
Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Stephen Bell |
Lincoln University, \--------------------(*)--------------------/
Canterbury,
New Zealand. NIMBUS II - Driver XX
RV 6 - Growing in the garage.
E-Mail: S.Bell(at)ono.lincoln.ac.nz work
steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz play
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
>From: aol.com!TLump(at)matronics.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar
and
>the flap brace?
Ted
I left them at my X wifes house after she got the house and I got the
airplane (and shaft.) :-)
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 >>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Beginner's Tips |
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 WinterByte(at)aol.com wrote:
> I am watching this mailing list for comments on Phlogiston Spar and
> Van's prepunched wing skins. I read about the guy that was clamping skins to
> spars, clamping ribs to angle, marking center lines, etc. Sounds as if each
> rib angle may have to be customized to Phlogiston Spar.
I'm the guy you speak of. First, there is no question that if I had
it to do over again I'd STILL go with the Phogiston spar and the
pre-punched skins. Compared to the amount of work I'd go thru
without them, I'd say I've had it real easy.
As for customizing rib angles to the spar, I think you've been
reading too much into what I was saying. All of my rivet lines
came out within a sixteenth of an inch of the centerlines of the
ribs, which is well within tolerence.
The REAL time savings with the pre-punched skins, though, seems to be the
leading edge and tanks. With the top skins clecoed to the skeleton, and
a few additional felt-pen marks on the spar and tank baffle, it is
almost trivial to get the leading edge and tank skins on right. Even
I can do it.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
I order the proseal tomorrow (gulp)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
For you builders who also ride motorcycles. Glue 3-4 of these together,
they make a good plate for setting your kickstand on. Keeps the stand
from sinking into the asphalt on a hot day (which usually results in a
motorcycle in an unusual attitude).
- Alan
____________________________________________
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
|--------------------------------------------|
| Preview plans received! #24179 |
| Study...study...look for tools...study.... |
|--------------------------------------------|
|http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
|____________________________________________|
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Jeffrey Hall wrote:
> No great ideas here, but can't you just hear the later kit fellas asking
> "what leftover discs???" (buncha pre-drilled, precut wusses!)
>
> On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 aol.com!TLump(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> > Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
> > aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
> > the flap brace? I have been using mine to make works of art. Unfortunately,
> > this has become so engrossing for me it has taken time away from my plane
> > building (oh well, they say the great artists don't do it because they want
> > to, they do it because they have to). I've also used them for Christmas
> > tree ornaments and I tried to put them in sacks to use as weights (of course
> > they weren't heavy enough to be much good).
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Ted
> > RV-4
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
if you would like to get good lodging , i would suggest the hallmark inn in
hillsboro. it is across the street from hillsboro airport and only five
minutes flight time to sunset airpark (van's house). also a fine restruant is
only a two minute walk from your room. if any one needs information about the
local area, please let me know..will be glad to help out.
jimnjac (RV-4 builder)
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Jeffrey Hall wrote:
> No great ideas here, but can't you just hear the later kit fellas asking
> "what leftover discs???" (buncha pre-drilled, precut wusses!)
>
Damn, and I was so looking forward to that job.
All this talk of lightening holes, reminds me of a humurous moment
in the hangar a few months back while I was helping a friend prepare
his Q2 for test flying, he asked a question about my progress on the
RV, I replied I'd just been cutting out the lightening holes in the
tailplane & fin ribs, he looked a little puzzled and we kept working
I knew what he was thinking but let him stew a bit, anyway after a few
moments his curiosity got the better of him and he asked how these
"lightning holes" worked, I replied that they worked because air was
lighter than metal.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lgroom(at)millcomm.com (Larry Groom) |
| Subject: | Ham Radio and Rv's! |
Hello Everyone,
I fly for a major airline which takes me all over the country. I'm
also an Amatuer Radio Operator. (Ham Radio) I usually take along a 2 meter hand-
held radio which I use to listen to local repeaters during my overnights.
I'm also building a RV-6, which by the way there's one more Horizontal Stab
in the
world!
Anyways, a few days ago while in San Jose I heard 2 fellow hams taking
about airplanes which finally led up to taking about their RV projects. I
tried to join the conversation but was unable to reach the repeater, which I
beleive was
in Livermore. It would of been fun to talk to other Rv builders on the West
Coast. I then thought that there is a real good possibility that there are RV
builders and Ham radio operators on this list. It would be fun to get a list of
RV Hams so that when traveling it would be a great way to use Ham Radio to talk
about the best airplane around!
So, for those reading this who are Hams please send a note to either this list
or my email address and I'll compile all the names together (If any!) and put
it back on the list. Who knows if we get enough hams maybe a HF net is in the
future! It amazes me as to how close the connection between Ham Radio and
aviation is. There are alot of Hams who fly or are connected to aviation. At
Oshkosh along with all the ball caps with tail numbers on them there are a heck
of alot of caps with Ham calls on them!
Thanks in advance!
Larry Groom - KE0VZ
lgroom(at)millcomm.com
ke0vz(at)wb0gdb.mn.usa.na
RV-6 23782 Tail Section
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
Well, I'm not an artist, but I decided to have fun with mine. I "engraved"
the letters "TUIT" on them and pass them out to people who say that they
"never can get around to it".
Horrible pun, and not original with me, but it sure makes folks laugh.
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Lightening Holes (chatter)
Date: 6/26/95 11:08 AM
Just curious. Has anyone developed a productive use for all the
aluminum discs left over after lightening up the flap spar, aileron spar and
the flap brace? I have been using mine to make works of art. Unfortunately,
this has become so engrossing for me it has taken time away from my plane
building (oh well, they say the great artists don't do it because they want
to, they do it because they have to). I've also used them for Christmas tree
ornaments and I tried to put them in sacks to use as weights (of course they
weren't heavy enough to be much good).
Any ideas?
Ted
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Aileron Trim |
I test flew a RV-6 for a builder. The bird had a rapid roll departure
(level to knife edge in about 1/4 second - hard to keep track of the rate
on a first flight :-) At any rate, we did three things in the following
order:
1. As John Morrissey said, we adjusted the flaps a bit (after checking
incidence, ...) definitely helped, but the builder had interference with
the overlap skin on the fuse. I had him make a "Z" bend in the metal to
provide additional flap clearance. Incidentally, before doing this I
verified the position of the flaps and ailerons in level flight so that we
didn't go overboard.
2. Using a hand seamer, I slowly squeezed the "heavy" wing as per Van's
instructions. Wow, what a difference, now I had the opposite problem, not
quite as rapid, but darn close. Used the combination of squeezing thinner
and bumping the trailing edge with a block of wood/hammer to make fatter,
...
3. Finally, I had him add aileron trim to adjust for solo/dual (RV-6) and
uneven fuel burn.
All this finally worked.
While going through the process of working items #1 and #2, the builder
added an aileron trim tab. I tried to convince him that it would only be
effective at one speed and, with the wide speed range on an RV, it wouldn't
help that much. Better to correct the real problem (flap alignment,
aileron trailing edge radius) and use "trim" for passenger/fuel balance.
I.e., "infinitely" adjustable aileron trim is preferable to a fixed trim
tab.
The end result was that after doing all three steps, the bird flew quite
nicely and the manual aileron trim tab was perfect for passenger/fuel
adjustments.
Mike Pilla
RV-4 fuse in the jig - adding baggage compartment "stuff"
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Aileron Trim
InternetLink
Date: 6/26/95 10:10 PM
G'Day Dick,
Having clocked up a hundred hours or so I feel that the spring loaded
lever type that Van's sells is more that adequate for inflight changes
due to uneven fuel burn or fat passengers. No external trim tabs
should be required. If you are constantly flying one wing low I would
suggest adjusting the flaps slightly. you would be amazed what a
couple of turns on the flap pushrod does!!
Happy RVing!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Aileron Trim
AARNet_Gateway
Date: 26/6/95 9:52 AM
I have a question for you guys already flying RVs.
What are your thoughts about aileron trim? I have one aileron left to build and
I am wondering if it is worth the trouble to install a trim tab. I've seen RVs
with and without aileron trim and it looks cleaner without, but how about
flying?
Dick Steffens
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
At our last EAA chapter meeting Carl Battjes showed films that he had
dug up of Van's exploits, and included in there was some footage of the
RV-5. It was a "swing-wing" (for trailerability), that Van developed in
the mid 1970s. Economy was the primary goal, beauty was secondary. I.e.
it was butt-ugly (my opinion only). It was originally powered by a
half- volkswagen engine, and later a rotax. Van said it would get
90-100mph on 3gph! Empty weight was just over 300lbs. It's hanging in
the rafters at Van's skunkworks. Someone asked him if he'd ever revive
it and he said no.
Randall Henderson
> I was reading a back-issue of the RVator and saw a reference
> to the RV-5.
>
> Does anyone know what this was?
>
> | From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
I hope this message makes it through this time! I understand that the RV-5 was
a VW powered prototype back in the 70's as a solution to the gas crunch (3-4 GPH
if I recall). Unfortunately, The plane never went into production.
Mike Graves
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ham Radio and Rv's! |
Text item:
Well, Larry, I don't know any hams but I sure work with a bunch of
turkeys
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Ham Radio and Rv's!
Date: 6/27/95 9:54 AM
Hello Everyone,
I fly for a major airline which takes me all over the country. I'm
also an Amatuer Radio Operator. (Ham Radio) I usually take along a
2 meter hand-
held radio which I use to listen to local repeaters during my overnights.
I'm also building a RV-6, which by the way there's one more Horizontal Stab
in the
world!
Anyways, a few days ago while in San Jose I heard 2 fellow hams taking
about airplanes which finally led up to taking about their RV projects. I
tried to join the conversation but was unable to reach the repeater, which I
beleive was
in Livermore. It would of been fun to talk to other Rv builders on the West
Coast. I then thought that there is a real good possibility that there are RV
builders and Ham radio operators on this list. It would be fun to get a list of
RV Hams so that when traveling it would be a great way to use Ham Radio to talk
about the best airplane around!
So, for those reading this who are Hams please send a note to either
this list
or my email address and I'll compile all the names together (If any!) and put
it back on the list. Who knows if we get enough hams maybe a HF net is in the
future! It amazes me as to how close the connection between Ham Radio and
aviation is. There are alot of Hams who fly or are connected to aviation. At
Oshkosh along with all the ball caps with tail numbers on them there are a heck
of alot of caps with Ham calls on them!
Thanks in advance!
Larry Groom - KE0VZ
lgroom(at)millcomm.com
ke0vz(at)wb0gdb.mn.usa.na
RV-6 23782 Tail Section
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Ham Radio and Rv's!
From: millcomm.com!lgroom(at)matronics.com (Larry Groom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:54:07 -0500
.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
>> All this talk of lightening holes, reminds me of a humurous moment
>> in the hangar a few months back while I was helping a friend prepare
>> his Q2 for test flying, he asked a question about my progress on the
>> RV, I replied I'd just been cutting out the lightening holes in the
>> tailplane & fin ribs, he looked a little puzzled and we kept working
>> I knew what he was thinking but let him stew a bit, anyway after a few
>> moments his curiosity got the better of him and he asked how these
>> "lightning holes" worked, I replied that they worked because air was
>> lighter than metal.
>>
>>Steve
>>
Did he ask if you intend to fly into thunderstorms?
He was probably trying to figure out how to get the lightening to go thru a
little hole and miss the plan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening Holes (chatter) |
Very carefully, of course!
>
> He was probably trying to figure out how to get the lightening to go thru a
> little hole and miss the plan
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | eyeball vents, location |
White industries in MO., 1-800 something, has loads of the alum vents from an
AZTEC, as in Piper/spam. I'm sure any other salvage yard will have them also.
VENT LOCATION:
I showed Van my vent location at Sun-N-Fun and sent a drawing in, but it was
never published. I put a NACA vent from Van in the bottom of the left wing of
my -4, and it blows MAJOR air. Unfortunately, I did not connect the front
vent to the same source.Since the back of the -4 is a problem for
ventilation, this seems to be an easy (and retro-fittable) fix. The inlet
mounts outboard of the wingwalk area with a doubler, 2" back from the skin
seam, and uses 2" hose to run into the fuse thru a hole aft of the ail
pushrod tube hole- the hose is fed thru the second rib lightening hole. I pit
a wisperflow vent at the bottom of the rear of the front seat back. No
complaints from any pax yet-- even blows on the ground.
I also got some static-cling stuff from Pep Boys and fitted it to the top of
the canopy. Took a while to fit the curves, tho. Not too bad working the
stuff on the outside, and then installing it on the inside.
512-918-8582 for questions
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ham Radio and Rv's! |
I'm WB7OBG, and I live in Phoenix, AZ. If you're gonna be in the
area sometime, let's set up a schedule. I have 2m and HF.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
I ordered ProSeal today (gulp)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Ham Radio and Rv's! |
Howdy, Larry, add WB8YYG to your list. Jeff Hall, RV4, wings, Ft.
Collins, Co. 147.360 in Ft. Collins, or usually listen to 145.310, the
Colorado Connection, and various other Front Range repeaters on scan. 73's
On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Larry Groom wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
> I fly for a major airline which takes me all over the country. I'm
> also an Amatuer Radio Operator. (Ham Radio) I usually take along a 2 meter hand-
> held radio which I use to listen to local repeaters during my overnights.
> I'm also building a RV-6, which by the way there's one more Horizontal Stab
> in the
> world!
> Anyways, a few days ago while in San Jose I heard 2 fellow hams taking
> about airplanes which finally led up to taking about their RV projects. I
> tried to join the conversation but was unable to reach the repeater, which I
> beleive was
> in Livermore. It would of been fun to talk to other Rv builders on the West
> Coast. I then thought that there is a real good possibility that there are RV
> builders and Ham radio operators on this list. It would be fun to get a list
of
> RV Hams so that when traveling it would be a great way to use Ham Radio to talk
> about the best airplane around!
> So, for those reading this who are Hams please send a note to either this list
> or my email address and I'll compile all the names together (If any!) and put
> it back on the list. Who knows if we get enough hams maybe a HF net is in the
> future! It amazes me as to how close the connection between Ham Radio and
> aviation is. There are alot of Hams who fly or are connected to aviation. At
> Oshkosh along with all the ball caps with tail numbers on them there are a heck
> of alot of caps with Ham calls on them!
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Larry Groom - KE0VZ
> lgroom(at)millcomm.com
> ke0vz(at)wb0gdb.mn.usa.na
> RV-6 23782 Tail Section
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Ham Radio and Rv's! |
Larry
I am KC6QXN out of Las Cruces NM, the local repeater is 146.64
and go *64 for the autopatch, 527-8125, 2M only.
Bob Busick
RV-6
KC6QXN
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
| Subject: | Compressed air (Shop talk) |
The last 6 months has been a busy period for me. I changed
jobs, moved, and my wife had our first child. Talk about
systemic shock! My RV-4 project suffered accordingly, especially
since I lost my shop for almost 6 months. As I speak my wings
are banished to a storage locker.
Now that I'm moved in up here to the Portland area, I have
the opportunity to set up my new shop using my 1.5 years of
building experience. In the beginning I tried to keep shop
construction to a minimum - we're building an aircraft here,
right? This led me to take the expedient course of locating
my 2.0 hp Craftsman compressor right in the garage area.
Now, that thing is *very* loud. My ear protectors really
came in handy. I always swore that I was going to find a
better location for it, but never wanted to stop building
long enough to do it.
Well, now is the time. My new place has a nice shed located
in the corner of the yard that is just asking for a compressor
installation. My plan is to run power to the shed, install
the compressor, and pipe the air back to the garage using PVC
pipe. I'm thinking of having a water trap and then a length of
pipe at waist level with a series of hose connectors at 2'
intervals.
Question: Does anyone have any experience doing this? I am
interested in hearing about pipe sizes, connector installations
and the like.
Thanks,
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | rv transition(chatter) |
Hey guys,
Thanks for all the interesting information! I have a general question:
For the benefit of those of us who cut our teeth on cessna 150 trainers with yokes
and forgiving flight characteristics , how difficult is it to transition into
a fast, low wing sport plane with a stick between the legs? My RV-6A is still
rolled up on the closet shelf in a box.
Thanks
Mike Graves
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Compressed air (Shop talk) |
> Well, now is the time. My new place has a nice shed located i
n
> the corner of the yard that is just asking for a compressor
> installation. My plan is to run power to the shed, install
> the compressor, and pipe the air back to the garage using PVC
> pipe. I'm thinking of having a water trap and then a length
> of pipe at waist level with a series of hose connectors at 2'
> intervals.
>
> Question: Does anyone have any experience doing this? I am
> interested in hearing about pipe sizes, connector
> installations and the like.
My instant reaction to this is "PVC pipe? for 90 psi pressure?"
Not that I have any experience, but it seems to me that this type of
arrangement calls for steel pipe.
And are a dozen air outlets necessary? How many air tools are you going to
run at once? Wouldn't a long flexible hose be simpler?
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING Wed Jun 28 15:39:08 0700 1995 remote
from fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: Operating Costs of RV-6 (non-technical)
Since I'm still in the VERY early stages of my RV-6 project, this
question is more curiosity than anything else...
Has anyone calculated the actual operating costs of their RV?
I'm guessing at the following numbers. Any comments or significant
changes?
Fixed Costs.... yearly...................
Storage: 780.00 (sacrilege... outside tie-down)
Taxes: 100.00
License: 50.00
Annual: 200.00 (cost if I do it...wild guess)
Insurance 2000.00 (if I'm lucky)
-------------------
3130.00
Operating Costs... hourly....................
Fuel (2.20/gal x 10gal/hr) 22.00
Engine Reserve (oil...) 5.00
General Maintenance 5.00
----------------------------------
32.00
So, I come up with about $3100/yr to own it and another $32/hr to fly
it. Does that sound about reasonable? I started thinking about this
when I paid my club payment for the month. I currently her C-152s,
172s, and an Archer II through the sky at rates of $45/hr to $72/hr.
I was wondering how my new RV would compare....
thanks,
russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: cost of ownership |
The insurance looks high to me but that will depend on the
'hull' value and your total time and time in type.
I just paid my insurance on a homebuilt Pitts with 30K hull value
and 1 Million liability and 250 deductible and it was only $830.00.
This includes aerobatic use. I got a little lower rate due to
the fact I was renewing and have not had any claims and this is
a single place aircraft.
General maintenance may also be high. If you start with 'new'
components like instruments, avionics, etc. I would not expect
major costs for some time. However, you can not predect AD's
and such on engines that you may wish to comply with.
If you build with a lot of 'used' components then I would expect
higher maint. costs.
BTW, we buy 100LL from self service pumps around here for
$1.75/gal.
>
>
> Since I'm still in the VERY early stages of my RV-6 project, this
> question is more curiosity than anything else...
>
> Has anyone calculated the actual operating costs of their RV?
>
> I'm guessing at the following numbers. Any comments or significant
> changes?
>
> Fixed Costs.... yearly...................
> Storage: 780.00 (sacrilege... outside tie-down)
> Taxes: 100.00
> License: 50.00
> Annual: 200.00 (cost if I do it...wild guess)
> Insurance 2000.00 (if I'm lucky)
> -------------------
> 3130.00
>
> Operating Costs... hourly....................
> Fuel (2.20/gal x 10gal/hr) 22.00
> Engine Reserve (oil...) 5.00
> General Maintenance 5.00
> ----------------------------------
> 32.00
>
>
> So, I come up with about $3100/yr to own it and another $32/hr to fly
> it. Does that sound about reasonable? I started thinking about this
> when I paid my club payment for the month. I currently her C-152s,
> 172s, and an Archer II through the sky at rates of $45/hr to $72/hr.
> I was wondering how my new RV would compare....
>
> thanks,
>
> russ
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Garrett <wgarrett(at)mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us> |
| Subject: | empennage controls, ideas for discussion, (fwd) |
>Stephen Bell wrote:
>Hi guys,
> I was thinking over a couple of ideas and wanted a little
> feedback before deciding to take them any further.
>
> 1. Spring biased rudder trim on an RV6, has anyone done this???
> If I recall correctly the cherokee 140's I learnt to fly in
> had them, I was considering something similar, maybe even getting
> an assembly from a wrecked 140 & adapting it.
Two years ago (spring of 94) at the RV formum in Frederick, MD a builder
named Bill Davis (I think) had a beautiful RV-6 and he had a spring
biased rudder trim installed in it. As I remember it, he had it mounted
to the bulkhead that carries the main spar just above where the rudder
cable passes through the bulkhead. The spring was attached to a
threaded rod that was adjustable with a knurled knob. It looked
relatively simple and looked good. This whole plane was one of the
best I've ever seen for workmanship. I was told at Sun 'n Fun this
year that he is based at Lakeland (I knew he was from Florida). In
talking to other builders though I got responses from "don't need any
rudder trim" to "the little stationary trim works fine." No one else
who was already flying an RV at that forum seemed to embrace the idea
of that sort of rudder trim. I doubt that I will bother with anything
like it until I at least fly my plane (a ways down the road - working
on the wings) to see how it handles.
Bill Garrett
RV6-A SN#22641
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Compressed air (Shop talk) (fwd) |
> Well, now is the time. My new place has a nice shed located in
> the corner of the yard that is just asking for a compressor
> installation. My plan is to run power to the shed, install
> the compressor, and pipe the air back to the garage using PVC
> pipe. I'm thinking of having a water trap and then a length
> of pipe at waist level with a series of hose connectors at 2'
> intervals.
>
> Question: Does anyone have any experience doing this? I am
> interested in hearing about pipe sizes, connector
> installations and the like.
>
I have seen a number of commercial shops that used PVC for running
compressed air around the shop. I think it is rated for 300 PSI
or something in that range. It is marked on the outside of each piece
so you can look at it in some builder supply store and see the rating.
An alternative is copper water line and solder the fittings together.
I am sure this would be more expensive and would look better but not
function any better.
It is nice to have several 'taps' where you can have several hoses
hooked up at once so you don't have to change hoses all the time.
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
JAMES,
There's nothing wrong with using PVC pipe to run air
lines. I've done it many times, both residentially and commercially.
Just make sure it's the thick stuff (schedule 40). Don't put so many
outlets though, unless you really need them. One at each end of the
shop works for me.
Kurt Keilbach RV-6a (all wing skins, spars, ribs deburred & dimpled.
Ready to rivet leading edge skins.)
P.S.
Every one I know (that doesn't fly ) always asks "why are you
building your own plane, are you crazy ?" Well I just caught a great
quote off the internet today, it read : " If your not livin' on the
edge your'e takin' up too much space". What a great reply!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Compressed air (Shop talk) |
We used 600 PSI PVC pipe (thick wall - very common stuff)
Have had problems with leaks however in the fitting ends. Would recommend
transitioning with regular plumbing fittings then onto the standard air
fittings. We used well wrapped teflon tape, but still had small leaks.
Would consider using some goop sealant for plumbing fittings instead of the
teflon tape.
Plumbed system so that we have two outlets, one regulated for riveting and
painting and the other high pressure for drilling. Do not use or rely on
gun mounted airflow restrictors (they are not regulators). Works great.
Also used different colored hoses attached to each outlet to remind us which
was high and low pressure.
As to drains, I thought we had that covered with the 6 ft climb and 10 ft
gentle slope before descending down to outlets. We put thumb screw (winged
handled) cocks on two drain lines. The problem is that the PVC threads
don't hold cock very well and we quit using them becuz of leaking problems.
RECOMMENDATION: Just build in a water separator in the line near the
outlet end.
Do not build in an oiler if you plan to paint with the air.
Good plan to have unit in shed. Noise will drive you and family nuts.
Neighbors too.
Multiple outlets is fine, but I think you will find that 25 foot hoses
really reach a long ways. One of the things I hate is tangled air hoses
just waiting to trip you and your project just waiting to catch you from the
fall.
Good luck. It pays to plan things out well since you will live with it for
a long time.
>> Well, now is the time. My new place has a nice shed located i
>n
>> the corner of the yard that is just asking for a compressor
>> installation. My plan is to run power to the shed, install
>> the compressor, and pipe the air back to the garage using PVC
>> pipe. I'm thinking of having a water trap and then a length
>> of pipe at waist level with a series of hose connectors at 2'
>> intervals.
>>
>> Question: Does anyone have any experience doing this? I am
>> interested in hearing about pipe sizes, connector
>> installations and the like.
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
I happen to have a layover in PHX this Saturday (NWA flight 101).
Staying at the Ramada Valley Ho near Sky Harbor
(945-6321) and will arrive probably around 1130 - noon.
Leaving Sunday morning. Leave a message if you have the opportunity. Always
love to talk RVs!
Doug Weiler
... Doug Weiler, Pres, MN Wing, Hudson, WI, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.microchip.com (scott fink) |
fire.ca.gov!RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)matronics.com
Russ,
This is irrelevant, everyone knows that FIXED COSTS DO NOT COUNT IN THE COST OF
FLYING YOUR PERSONAL AIRPLANE, ergo flying your own plane costs only the gas for
he trip and really does not include the oil burned (or leaked) as you would just
dump that out during the next oil change anyway (fixed cost, doesn't count).
Do not EVER even calculate the fixed costs, and if you want to make comparisons,
compare the heartache suffered when you cannot get the club or rental airplane
compared with the joy, nay exstacy, of knowing that you can go the airport at
ANY time and hop into your own bird and fly as long as you dang well please.
Why don't you just ponder the origins of the universe, or something else more
trivial?
By the way, the fig'ers you came up with are pretty close to what I pay for my
Cherokee.
Scott Fink
Broke the Jeep, now got to fix it and not work on the airplane (AAAAARGH!)
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
Internet_Exchange
Date: 6/28/95 12:39 PM
>From RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING Wed Jun 28 15:39:08 0700 1995 remote
from fire.ca.gov
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:39:08 -0700
From: RUSS_NICHOLS_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: Operating Costs of RV-6 (non-technical)
Since I'm still in the VERY early stages of my RV-6 project, this
question is more curiosity than anything else...
Has anyone calculated the actual operating costs of their RV?
I'm guessing at the following numbers. Any comments or significant
changes?
Fixed Costs.... yearly...................
Storage: 780.00 (sacrilege... outside tie-down)
Taxes: 100.00
License: 50.00
Annual: 200.00 (cost if I do it...wild guess)
Insurance 2000.00 (if I'm lucky)
-------------------
3130.00
Operating Costs... hourly....................
Fuel (2.20/gal x 10gal/hr) 22.00
Engine Reserve (oil...) 5.00
General Maintenance 5.00
----------------------------------
32.00
So, I come up with about $3100/yr to own it and another $32/hr to fly
it. Does that sound about reasonable? I started thinking about this
when I paid my club payment for the month. I currently her C-152s,
172s, and an Archer II through the sky at rates of $45/hr to $72/hr.
I was wondering how my new RV would compare....
thanks,
russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Compressed air (Shop talk) |
On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, James Caufield wrote:
> My plan is to run power to the shed, install
> the compressor, and pipe the air back to the garage using PVC
> pipe. I'm thinking of having a water trap and then a length of
> pipe at waist level with a series of hose connectors at 2'
> intervals.
>
> Question: Does anyone have any experience doing this? I am
> interested in hearing about pipe sizes, connector installations
> and the like.
Here at work, we've been piping compressed air around using 1-inch
schedule 20 PVC for years. Ours is all indors, though, so I don't
have any knowledge of what the cold wet weather might do.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Aileron Trim |
Mike Pilla wrote:
> I test flew a RV-6 for a builder. The bird had a rapid roll departure
> (level to knife edge in about 1/4 second - hard to keep track of the rate
> on a first flight :-) At any rate, we did three things in the following
> order:
[solution deleted]
Is this a typo?! 90 deg in 1/4 sec?! Can you say anything more about the
conditions, like airspeed and power setting? That doesn't sound like just a
lateral trim problem, it sounds like a snap roll!
(but it's hard to argue if you fixed it :)
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
<4280210368(at)f101.n2245.z1.ftn>
| From: | Mike Fredette <mfredett(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Doug,
What a coinkydink. My wife and I are flying down to PHX Fri
nite and staying till Teus at the Wyndham Garden in Chandler. I'd also like
to get together with Dave Barnhart or any other PHX RV'ers and talk
the usual BS lines. We're going down for a house-hunting trip, relocating
to PHX next mo, so I've got the wife looking at homes with at least a 3
car garage for the shop area, after that, I could care less.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4--N4MF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re[4]: Aileron Trim |
The roll rate was probably closer to one-half second; it is hard to
estimate the exact time when you are on the first flight and trying to
check and record temperatures, unusual smells, sounds, ... I only noticed
the roll tendency when I wanted to take my hand off the stick to write some
observations about observed temperatures, ... (A voice recorder would
have been better.) After about ten minutes, though, it became quite
tiring. I kept the first flight to only twenty minutes.
One-half second is about 360o in two seconds; close to what the few RVs
I've rolled do. Definitely not a "snap roll"; i.e., "horizontal spin".
The bird was fully controllable; just took considerable "manual trim". In
fact, I flew with both hands on the sticks. One hand as a "manual lateral
trim" control on one stick and the other hand to do the "small flying"
excursions using the "normal" stick. Only had to fight the roll tendency
while landing since I like to keep one hand on the throttle in case I
needed to make a go around, ... Sure could have used three hands! :-)
Again, not a problem, and, after that first flight, we followed Van's
recommendations and made sure the flaps were aligned correctly and then to
"squeeze" the "heavy" aileron (squeeze because the roll forces weren't "too
light".) Even though I "barely" squeezed the left aileron, the right wing
really wanted to drop on the next flight. That was when the builder put on
a "fixed" trim tab. Eventually, I got him to remove the fixed trim tab and
install Van's cockpit adjustable trim, BUT, I insisted that we correct the
roll problem and use the trim ONLY for solo/dual, fuel burn, ..., not to
correct this rolling tendency.
That is what test flying is all about. Incidentally, in hindsight, I
should have expected the rapid roll departure because if you ran your
fingers along the trailing edge of his ailerons, there was a definite
"unevenness" to the trailing edge radius. When I squeezed, the first time,
I did a very gentle squeeze along the entire trailing edge of the left
aileron - it was way, way too much - and I want to emphasize that when I
say gentle, I mean barely squeezing the hand seamer. Finally, I realized
that I should have only squeezed the "fat" parts of the aileron trailing
edge. As I said, hindsight!
Incidentally, so that we don't have another thread starting about "this
horrible RV roll problem" (like the infamous "tail wagging" thread), let me
remark that, in our chapter, this particular bird was not considered to
have been made very well. In fact, several chapter members literally
questioned my sanity in test flying the bird. I wanted to give something
back to the chapter members since my work schedule precludes much in the
way of active participation. I did have our designee (who had built and
flown his own RV-6) look over the bird with me. We identified several
discrepancies and had them corrected *before* I made that first flight. I
am convinced, however, that had the builder attempted the first flight, it
probably would have been disastrous. I am not saying that I am a great
pilot, just "more recent" in taildraggers and higher performance birds, ...
Van's and Jerry's notes are most helpful; they have a lot of experience and
it was s delight to follow their test plan recommendations.
Let me conclude with the fact that after I landed, everyone remarked that
I
had the usual "big grin" even though it wasn't my bird. Van's planes are
such a delight to fly; even one badly out of trim. The second flight, with
"heavy" right roll forces, lasted one hour as I followed the plan. Tiring,
but still a real delight. Van designs great flying planes.
I can't wait until my bird is ready to go.
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Aileron Trim
Date: 6/29/95 9:53 AM
Mike Pilla wrote:
> I test flew a RV-6 for a builder. The bird had a rapid roll departure
> (level to knife edge in about 1/4 second - hard to keep track of the rate
> on a first flight :-) At any rate, we did three things in the following
> order:
[solution deleted]
Is this a typo?! 90 deg in 1/4 sec?! Can you say anything more about the
conditions, like airspeed and power setting? That doesn't sound like just a
lateral trim problem, it sounds like a snap roll!
(but it's hard to argue if you fixed it :)
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | reply to rvlist req for info on Van's Homecoming |
Bob Siebert, saw your request for info on Van's Homecoming on the rv list.
The homecoming is scheduled for Sept 1-4. We have stayed at Hallmark Inn,
a Best Western motel. Enterprise rental cars are available, or usually there
are rides available. It is convinent because it is just across street from
Hillsboro Airport. From prior experience, we attend last two years, you
want to arrive at Van's grass strip by early afternoon on Friday, Sept 1,
because that is the one time of the weekend when everyone is together, great
time of socializing and looking at each others planes, and a nice potluck
evening dinner. Saturday is the time when people go off flying and
exploring the area, taking plant tours, etc, and Sat night is a nice banquet
that is fun to attend. Sorry if you have attended before and this is a
repeat.
Last year we had six RVs and one Cessna from the Dallas area fly up for the
Homecoming. We left early on Wed morning, spending the night at St. George,
Utah. Don't know yet if a group from Dallas is going, but my wife, Bonnie,
and I are planning to again fly our Cessna up to Oregon. So if you hear
N2814Y on 122.75, say hi.
Our project is progressing, slowly but surely. Started on the flaps last
weekend, have all wing skins drilled and dimpled, some riveting done but lots
of riveting left to do.
Have a safe flight - Tom Lewis RV6A Project
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: rv transition(chatter) |
I have less than a 100 hours and 2.2 hours tailwheel time. I am currently
taking
RV-6 transisiton training from Mike Seager. With about 2 more hours I
think I will be comfortable enough in takeoff and landings, certainaly
confident enough to fly my own RV-6 once it is finsihed. As for flying a
160 knot aircraft, I did not have any real problems adjusting to the
speed, actually I was a little disappointed, I thought it would all be
much harder than it really was. I have even done my first roll and loop,
both of which are much easier than a landing or takeoff in a Cessna 172!
My theory on this subject is: transisiton is very easy and straight
forward if you take the time and spend the money ($500-600) and get the
best professional instruction available. When you consider the cost of
my plane, which will be between $30000-40000, 10 hours of dual at $650 is
very cheap insurance, and the best money I can spend during the building
process.
As a low time pilot I'm sure there are ways I can get into trouble with
the RV-6, but I'm positive that I can get in just as much trouble in a
172. In many respects the RV-6 is such a better aircraft that a 172, it
may allow you to recover much easier than a 172.
Just my thoughts based upon my limited experience. If you can't fly an
RV, why fly at all!
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Michael Graves wrote:
> Hey guys,
> Thanks for all the interesting information! I have a general question:
> For the benefit of those of us who cut our teeth on cessna 150 trainers with
yokes and forgiving flight characteristics , how difficult is it to transition
into a fast, low wing sport plane with a stick between the legs? My RV-6A is
still rolled up on the closet shelf in a box.
>
>
> Thanks
> Mike Graves
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
foyboy5 now has a new address. 102370.3241(at)compuserve.com please change for
the RV-list. Thank you. John Foy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Glad to be here!!! |
I've heard about the RV-List for some time now. I was kind of hoping my
employer would give me access to the internet but they have been kind of
procrastinating. In any case, for better or worse, I have signed on on my
own.
My email address is ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
The snail mail and telephone data is:
John Ammeter
3233 NE 95th St
Seattle WA 98115
206-525-5445 Hm
206-684-4269 Wk
I've been flying my RV-6 for about 5 years now; I built it in about 3 1/2
years and now have about 215 hours on it. If you're in the Puget Sound area
and hear N16JA on the radio give me a call; we can meet for coffee or whatever.
Some of you may recognize my name. I was the editor of the Puget Sound
RVators for the past 5 years. I recently passed the editorial pen (and
responsibilitys) to Greg Rainwater, one of our more active members. I still
hold the office of President. The principle duties of the President seem to
be planning and cooking for our Arlington Airfair Picnic (info to follow)
and bargaining for discounts for our members at local (and national)
aircraft parts and tools suppliers.
Regarding the Picnic at the Arlington Airfair: this year the picnic will
start about 1:00 PM on the east side of the field just south of the Pie in
the Sky combination gas pumps/pie shop. The RVators will provide burgers,
dogs, buns, condiments, soft drinks, paper plates, plastic ware;
participants and guests are asked to bring salads, chips, dips, cold/hot
beans or whatever. The Airshow starts about 3:00. This gives us time to
serve up burgers and dogs and relax before the show starts. Our position on
the east side of the field is closer to the action than the public viewing
area on the west side. The picnic area is next to the taxi way and a
couple of years ago one of the performers, as part of his show, planned to
come down to within 10 feet of the runway at about 250 mph. However,
whether planned or not, he made a slight miscalculation. He lined up on the
taxi way instead of the runway. Our group was treated to the sight of a
BD-5J screaming by at 250 mph only about 20 feet in front of us.
Any and all RV builders, flyers and enthusiasts are welcome to join us at
the picnic. I'll be the one wearing the apron and burning the burgers. I
just noticed that I failed to mention the day/date of the picnic. It will
be held on Saturday, July 8. Hope to see you there, come up and say "HI"; I
may let you flip the burgers for a while.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Introduction: Terry Gannon |
Folks -- my name is Terry Gannon and I'm contemplating an RV-6 project. I live
in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and I'm a low time (80 hours approx.) Private
Pilot. I work for a medium size oil & gas company, in the computer department.
I'm 34 years old, married, no children.
I'm sure my reasons for thinking about homebuilding are similar to many of
you...what I can afford, I don't want, and what I want I can't afford. My first
attempt at solo was at the age of five, leaping from the garage roof with
umbrella in hand. I can't imagine why but my folks took a dim view of this.
I'm proud to say that I actually succeeded at the age of sixteen, having learned
to fly sailplanes in Vacaville, California. I logged 20 or 30 hours before I
ran out of money. I first thought of building my own plane around the same
time, a wooden sailplane called a Duster. I took up flying again a couple of
years ago, and got through the Private Pilot.
My project is in the early conceptual stages only. I have got the OK from the
better half to investigate, and have spent a little time building a network of
contacts to try and get a handle on the scope and magnitude of the project. I
have sent for, but not yet received, the info pack from Van's.
Of particular interest would be to talk to someone relatively close by that has
either completed or is working on any of Van's aircraft. I look forward to
participating in this list, and hope that I can both learn, and contribute,
eventually. Cheers,
Terry Gannon
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Glad to be here!!! |
I've heard about the RV-List for some time now. I was kind of hoping my
employer would give me access to the internet but they have been kind of
procrastinating. In any case, for better or worse, I have signed on on my
own.
My email address is ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
The snail mail and telephone data is:
John Ammeter
3233 NE 95th St
Seattle WA 98115
206-525-5445 Hm
206-684-4269 Wk
I've been flying my RV-6 for about 5 years now; I built it in about 3 1/2
years and now have about 215 hours on it. If you're in the Puget Sound area
and hear N16JA on the radio give me a call; we can meet for coffee or whatever.
Some of you may recognize my name. I was the editor of the Puget Sound
RVators for the past 5 years. I recently passed the editorial pen (and
responsibilitys) to Greg Rainwater, one of our more active members. I still
hold the office of President. The principle duties of the President seem to
be planning and cooking for our Arlington Airfair Picnic (info to follow)
and bargaining for discounts for our members at local (and national)
aircraft parts and tools suppliers.
Regarding the Picnic at the Arlington Airfair: this year the picnic will
start about 1:00 PM on the east side of the field just south of the Pie in
the Sky combination gas pumps/pie shop. The RVators will provide burgers,
dogs, buns, condiments, soft drinks, paper plates, plastic ware;
participants and guests are asked to bring salads, chips, dips, cold/hot
beans or whatever. The Airshow starts about 3:00. This gives us time to
serve up burgers and dogs and relax before the show starts. Our position on
the east side of the field is closer to the action than the public viewing
area on the west side. The picnic area is next to the taxi way and a
couple of years ago one of the performers, as part of his show, planned to
come down to within 10 feet of the runway at about 250 mph. However,
whether planned or not, he made a slight miscalculation. He lined up on the
taxi way instead of the runway. Our group was treated to the sight of a
BD-5J screaming by at 250 mph only about 20 feet in front of us.
Any and all RV builders, flyers and enthusiasts are welcome to join us at
the picnic. I'll be the one wearing the apron and burning the burgers. I
just noticed that I failed to mention the day/date of the picnic. It will
be held on Saturday, July 8. Hope to see you there, come up and say "HI"; I
may let you flip the burgers for a while.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Glad to be here!!! |
I've heard about the RV-List for some time now. I was kind of hoping my
employer would give me access to the internet but they have been kind of
procrastinating. In any case, for better or worse, I have signed on on my
own.
My email address is ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
The snail mail and telephone data is:
John Ammeter
3233 NE 95th St
Seattle WA 98115
206-525-5445 Hm
206-684-4269 Wk
I've been flying my RV-6 for about 5 years now; I built it in about 3 1/2
years and now have about 215 hours on it. If you're in the Puget Sound area
and hear N16JA on the radio give me a call; we can meet for coffee or whatever.
Some of you may recognize my name. I was the editor of the Puget Sound
RVators for the past 5 years. I recently passed the editorial pen (and
responsibilitys) to Greg Rainwater, one of our more active members. I still
hold the office of President. The principle duties of the President seem to
be planning and cooking for our Arlington Airfair Picnic (info to follow)
and bargaining for discounts for our members at local (and national)
aircraft parts and tools suppliers.
Regarding the Picnic at the Arlington Airfair: this year the picnic will
start about 1:00 PM on the east side of the field just south of the Pie in
the Sky combination gas pumps/pie shop. The RVators will provide burgers,
dogs, buns, condiments, soft drinks, paper plates, plastic ware;
participants and guests are asked to bring salads, chips, dips, cold/hot
beans or whatever. The Airshow starts about 3:00. This gives us time to
serve up burgers and dogs and relax before the show starts. Our position on
the east side of the field is closer to the action than the public viewing
area on the west side. The picnic area is next to the taxi way and a
couple of years ago one of the performers, as part of his show, planned to
come down to within 10 feet of the runway at about 250 mph. However,
whether planned or not, he made a slight miscalculation. He lined up on the
taxi way instead of the runway. Our group was treated to the sight of a
BD-5J screaming by at 250 mph only about 20 feet in front of us.
Any and all RV builders, flyers and enthusiasts are welcome to join us at
the picnic. I'll be the one wearing the apron and burning the burgers. I
just noticed that I failed to mention the day/date of the picnic. It will
be held on Saturday, July 8. Hope to see you there, come up and say "HI"; I
may let you flip the burgers for a while.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Russ, see my 'actuals' for my 180hp, wood prop, RV-6 that turned ONE YEAR OLD
June 30th, with exaclty 170.0 hours on the hobbs:
> Since I'm still in the VERY early stages of my RV-6 project, this
> question is more curiosity than anything else...
> Has anyone calculated the actual operating costs of their RV?
>
> I'm guessing at the following numbers. Any comments or significant
> changes?
Fixed Costs.... yearly...................
Storage: 780.00 >> I pay that for my 1/2 of a hangar <<
Taxes: 100.00 00
License: 50.00 38
Annual: 200.00 00 I have a buddy A/P
Insurance 2000.00 273 (liability only)
-------------------
3130.00 1091.00
Operating Costs... hourly....................
Fuel (2.20/gal x 10gal/hr) 22.00
1.68 x 8gph 13.50
Engine Reserve (oil...) 5.00 2.20
General Maintenance 5.00 ?
----------------------------------
32.00 15.70
I have about 1100 plus 15 to 20 $$/hour. I don't really think about it
much though, the point is I enjoy the heck out of it and as long as I can put
gas in it, I will.
dw
> So, I come up with about $3100/yr to own it and another $32/hr to fly
> it. Does that sound about reasonable? I started thinking about this
> when I paid my club payment for the month. I currently her C-152s,
> 172s, and an Archer II through the sky at rates of $45/hr to $72/hr.
> I was wondering how my new RV would compare....
thanks,
russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Compressed air (Shop talk) (fwd) |
For the low pressures (<100 psi) we need PVC is fine. If you use large diameter
pipe (2 or 3") you will get a free capacity increase in your tank while you are
at it. I think spending the $$ on larger pipe would be better than too many
heads (every 2 feet?). I had 3 connections in a 34x24' shop, one was dedicated
to spraygun use, and seldom yearned for more. I also built a small insulated
'garage' for my compressor, with shelves above it for my tool kit, and this
quieted the sound a lot. I did have to open the door when running the die
grinder or the compressor garage would heat up.
dw
> Well, now is the time. My new place has a nice shed located in
> the corner of the yard that is just asking for a compressor
> installation. My plan is to run power to the shed, install
> the compressor, and pipe the air back to the garage using PVC
> pipe. I'm thinking of having a water trap and then a length
> of pipe at waist level with a series of hose connectors at 2'
> intervals.
>
> Question: Does anyone have any experience doing this? I am
> interested in hearing about pipe sizes, connector
> installations and the like.
>
I have seen a number of commercial shops that used PVC for running
compressed air around the shop. I think it is rated for 300 PSI
or something in that range. It is marked on the outside of each piece
so you can look at it in some builder supply store and see the rating.
An alternative is copper water line and solder the fittings together.
I am sure this would be more expensive and would look better but not
function any better.
It is nice to have several 'taps' where you can have several hoses
hooked up at once so you don't have to change hoses all the time.
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Compressed air (Shop talk) (fwd) |
Okay lets see if I remember my mechanical standards (I'm an electrical
designer so corrections will be appreciated).
Schedule 40 pipe:
rated at 150 psi - good for a single stage compressor that typically runs at
a 125 psi shutoff setting and is what most of us will have unless we have a
production shop or an insatiable need for power.
Schedule 80 pipe:
rated at 300 psi - for a 2 stage compressor that will run at 165+ psi and
will run tools like a DA sander all day without a break (over kill for our
needs building an RV but then there is that power thing).
Schedule 10 pipe:
(I don't remember the rating, probably less than 100 psi)
Regarding air couplings:
An idea from Rion Borgois (RV-4) that I liked was air lines run on or above
the ceiling with the quick couplings up there. You can move around the work
area with one of those coiled air hoses and plug in above your head where
you are working. This leaves no air hoses laying/winding around the work
area to get in the way. Of course if your work area is a hanger/shop with
ceilings over 8 feet high, well, you'll have to think of something else.
Regarding lots of fittings and joints in the air system:
Take your time and make sure there are no little leaks. A few of these
leaks can add up if you are running with a border line air supply.
It's one of those little things that make a lot of difference when you are
on a tight budget.
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..)
TAIL: ----------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | intrument pictures? |
I'm starting to think ahaead about instrument panel and paint.
King is real good about providing full-sized pictures of their
radios, so I was wondering, does anyone make a set of full-sized
stick-on flight instruments?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | RV Picnic at Arlington Airfair |
Michael McGee brought it to my attention that I failed to mention how to get
to the picnic at the Arlington Airfair on Saturday, July 8. The picnic will
start about 1:00 PM and most people show up around that time. It will be
located just south of the north gas pumps on the east side of the field.
You can catch the shuttle bus (van); it should stop near the camping
entrance to the Airfair. The bus runs about every 10 to 15 minutes. It can
be pretty full at times though. The bus stops running during the airshow so
be sure to get on it early enough. One year a couple of our people flew in,
parked their RV-6A on the east side and went on the bus over to the west
side to catch a quick tour of the airfair shops. They missed the last bus
back to the east side and missed out on all the burgers and dogs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | what to do with aluminum cutouts |
I thought everyone knew what the aluminum cutouts from the wing ribs were
for. In fact, I expect Van's to supply cutouts with the new kits (the ones
with the precut ribs). Everyone wants the instrument panel to be both
original and functional. However, few of us want the expense of buying a
new panel blank because we don't really like the way the way the instruments
are situated. The easiest solution is to label the appropriate cutouts with
the names of instruments. Put the blank panel where you will see it
whenever you enter or leave your shop. Place the labelled cutouts on the
panel. Keep moving the cutouts (instruments) around until you feel you have
the Perfect Panel. Now leave it alone for a while. If you can walk by it
for at least a month without moving any instruments around maybe it is the
Perfect Panel. In any case, it is a lot cheaper and easier to move cutouts
than instruments.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: intrument pictures? |
Dave -
If you're going to be at Oshkosh, c'mon by the Century Instruments booth and
I'll custom design a panel for you. I've already done 20 RV-6 panel designs
for customers.
By the way, I'm looking to sell my RV-4 (325 TT, 1100SMOH 160 HP, GPS,
glideslope) and find an RV-6 to finish, if anybody has any leads.
Ed Wischmeyer
near San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary <70176.1660(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | 85 days from Kit to Flight!! |
Jerry Scott completed his RV-6 kit complete with paint , IFR instrumentation and
flew it in 85 days! More
information on Jerry Scott is available in the last Rvator.
I will be on vacation till 12 July. Will send more information when I get back.
Brian: Thanks for the help with the engine.
Gary
RV-6 N-157GS S/N: 20480
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: intrument pictures? |
Dave
I don't know about stick ons, but if you let me know what you want I know a
guy that has full size insturment blocks on his computer drawn with CAD and
he can print you out full size blocks, meaning the exact insrument size with
screw holes and room need around the insturment.
Infact if you have access to a program such as some kind of CAD I can send
you a copy of my RV-6 instrument panal on a 3.5" disk and you can move them
youself, then if you know someone with a plotter, plot it out full size or
send it back and I can get it plotted full size for you.
Where do you Live?
Can we send files E-mail through the RV-LIST? Anyone?
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: intrument pictures? (Chatter) |
Why?? Can't you afford the real ones??
:-)
seriously, maybe we can scan some from magazines and fiddle with them
a bit to get the right size!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: intrument pictures?
Date: 02/7/95 6:12 PM
I'm starting to think ahaead about instrument panel and paint.
King is real good about providing full-sized pictures of their
radios, so I was wondering, does anyone make a set of full-sized
stick-on flight instruments?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Autocad Three Views |
As I mentioned in my introduction, I'm at the very early stages of an evaluation
of an RV-6 project. One of my most basic considerations is whether I have the
SPACE to build it. Fortunately, I have access to Autosketch, and can play
around with some ideas before getting out the hammer and saw.
To this end, does anyone have the three views of the RV-6 in Autocad that they
may be willing to part with. All I'd be looking for is outlines...any sort of
construction would be premature. If you have the separate components, even
better.
Thanx, in anticipation, for your help...regards...Terry in Calgary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: intrument pictures? |
About a year or two ago, someone was offering a full size set
of instrument and radio graphics just for this purpose.
I think he was advertising in Sport Aviation.
I don't recall the cost.
I made some by cutting out pictures from ads or from catalogs.
I made actual cardboard cutout's the proper size and pasted the pictures on.
One thing you have to watch is the space needed behind the instrument.
Be sure to leave enough room at the top and sides. For example, on the
RV-4, there are screws that come down to hold on the fuselage skin that
is removable to access the instruments. Also, the 3/4 inch angle double
is riveted on around the edge of the panel and you want to clear this.
Putting this on a CAD system would be the way to go.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Bures <jeff_bures(at)jabil.com> |
| Subject: | Re: intrument pictures? |
Jerry,
You'd be better off to bypass the list and send the files directly to
him, via email. Use UUENCODE (if you have a copy) turn the file into
ascii compatible form, then insert it right in your mail. The receiver
will UUDECODE the file. (sort of like pkzip and unzip, but not really).
Some mail programs will automatically UUENCODE and DECODE attached
files. Some require it to be done manually. You can FTP UUDECODE from
wustl.wuarchive.edu, or get it from a friend.
I do it all the time, and it works quickly and easily.
Good luck...
Jeff Bures
Tampa Bay
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: intrument pictures?
Date: 7/3/95 1:34 PM
Dave
I don't know about stick ons, but if you let me know what you want I know a
guy that has full size insturment blocks on his computer drawn with CAD and
he can print you out full size blocks, meaning the exact insrument size with
screw holes and room need around the insturment.
Infact if you have access to a program such as some kind of CAD I can send
you a copy of my RV-6 instrument panal on a 3.5" disk and you can move them
youself, then if you know someone with a plotter, plot it out full size or
send it back and I can get it plotted full size for you.
Where do you Live?
Can we send files E-mail through the RV-LIST? Anyone?
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | RE: intrument pictures? |
In response to Jerry's question as to whether files can be sent through RV-LIST,
I don't think that this should be a problem. There are two fairly common
utilities available....'uuencode' and 'uudecode'. The former takes a binary
file (like an Autocad file) and turns it into straight ASCII text that can then
be sent like any other message. The recipient, then runs the message through
the latter, and you get the binary file back. Those utilities should be
available on most of the on-line services. Please let me know if you need more
information.
Terry in Calgary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeff Bures <jeff_bures(at)jabil.com> |
| Subject: | Re: intrument pictures? |
Ed,
I am currently trying to find out if I have the skills/desire/money to
build an RV. I might just want to buy. How much do you want for your
RV-4.
Thanks,
Jeff Bures
Tampa Bay
PS This is just casual interest.
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: intrument pictures?
Date: 7/3/95 12:48 PM
Dave -
If you're going to be at Oshkosh, c'mon by the Century Instruments booth and
I'll custom design a panel for you. I've already done 20 RV-6 panel designs
for customers.
By the way, I'm looking to sell my RV-4 (325 TT, 1100SMOH 160 HP, GPS,
glideslope) and find an RV-6 to finish, if anybody has any leads.
Ed Wischmeyer
near San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Questions re: painting |
Well, last weekend I set up a mini paint booth in my garage and primed some
parts. Yuck! Boy, did I do it wrong.
So now I have a number of other ideas that I thought I would bounce off the
gang here.
1. If I pre-prime parts before machining (drilling rivet holes), do I need
to touch-up? Do I have to do this before riveting?
2. Can I touch-up with a paint brush, or do I *have* to spray?
3. I'm thinking of building a tent-like structure in my yard. It would be
built on tent poles and 5 tarps - top plus 4 sides -- to build a cube
big enough I can stand in. Comments? Anyone have a better idea?
4. How do I clean the #!@$@# primer out of the paint gun? The stuff was
rather solid nearly immediately, and neither the reducer nor mineral
spirits cleaned it out. (I did spray enough solution through the gun
that I *think* it'll work the next time I try to use it.)
5. Any comments re: Dupont VariPrime?
Thanks again.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KWilli8027(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Autocad Three Views |
do you have enough room? of course you do! i remember seeing a photo of tony
bingelis building parts for his first homebuilt in the (converted) closet of
his house when stationed in japan. the most important question you can ask
yourself is " do i have the commitment, attitude and want to, to see my
project to completion. any other questions will just be reasons or excuses
for not building. remember that very few are ever completed. i'm just trying
to prepare you not discourage you. go for it. i did and i'm painting my rv6-a
now!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Questions re: painting |
> 1. If I pre-prime parts before machining (drilling rivet holes), do I need
> to touch-up? Do I have to do this before riveting?
You don't HAVE to even PRIME. Since you choose to do so (seems like
most of us do) then it's a matter of just how particular you are about
it. Unless you keep your plane in a particuarly corrosion-prone
environment it probably would make very little difference. Then again,
I DO touch up at least the trimmed edges, but I'm a bit of a
perfectionist, plus I live in the "wet" northwest.
>
> 2. Can I touch-up with a paint brush, or do I *have* to spray?
Brushing the primer on seems to work ok for small stuff.
>
> 3. I'm thinking of building a tent-like structure in my yard. It would be
> built on tent poles and 5 tarps - top plus 4 sides -- to build a cube
> big enough I can stand in. Comments? Anyone have a better idea?
Make it as big and as durable as possible. Install a big fan (household
box type fan works well) with a furnace filter in front of it, as well
as a vent to let air in. What are you going to do for a floor? I
wouldn't leave it dirt or grass, that'd give you lots of grief.
I finally broke down 6 months or so ago and built a temporary paint
shed, 12'x10' off the back of my garage. Best thing I ever did. Now I
can paint all I want back there and not get overspray or paint dust on
anything or have to stay out of my garage while the stuff cures.
>
> 4. How do I clean the #!@$@# primer out of the paint gun? The stuff was
> rather solid nearly immediately, and neither the reducer nor mineral
> spirits cleaned it out. (I did spray enough solution through the gun
> that I *think* it'll work the next time I try to use it.)
I don't know about Variprime, but I use courtauld's 2 part epoxy, and
that cleans up fine with lacquer thinner or acetone. Lacquer thinner
seems like it'll dissolve anything (including surgical gloves!)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions re: painting |
On Mon, 3 Jul 1995, Joe Larson wrote:
> Well, last weekend I set up a mini paint booth in my garage and primed some
> parts. Yuck! Boy, did I do it wrong.
>
Hi Joe,
Ditto for me when I started. For many of us builders painting, especially
spray painting is an aquired skill, it's something you will get better at
as you gain more experience.
[ Maybe we should have an RV-list primer primer ... :) oops I mean FAQ or
HOWTO ]
Here are some tips I picked up;
1. practise a bit (garage wall, that old garden trailer you've been
meaning to fixup) before you start on your kit parts.
2. get to know your spray gun settings, & paint thinning ratios.
the paint should be thinned to about the consistency of milk, too thick
and the paint will dry out before hitting the work & you'll end up
with a thick uneven finish, to thin & it won't stick to the aluminium
and will run.
On the spray-gun side you need work out good settings for air & paint
flow. I use about 30psi air pressure at the compressor & have adjustments
on the gun to control paint flow & spray pattern.
> 1. If I pre-prime parts before machining (drilling rivet holes), do I need
> to touch-up? Do I have to do this before riveting?
I'm priming the internal structure as I live in a costal area and
prime all parts before riveting.
If i've primed a part before drilling holes I don't usually touch up
before riveting. But I usually touch up the rivet heads & tails
with a paintbrush afterwards.
>
> 2. Can I touch-up with a paint brush, or do I *have* to spray?
>
I often paint under/around the rivet lines with a brush & leave
the spray painting until I have a reasonable sized structure to
paint.
> 3. I'm thinking of building a tent-like structure in my yard. It would be
> built on tent poles and 5 tarps - top plus 4 sides -- to build a cube
> big enough I can stand in. Comments? Anyone have a better idea?
>
Sounds like overkill.
I use the garage, putting up old sheets to help stop the overspray
getting everywhere.
Lightly spray the floors etc with water to keep the dust down.
Wear a decent respirator mask, I'm using a 3M mask with a
paint spray prefilter & and organic solvents filter cartridge.
As my workshop is at the back of the garage I make painting the
last job of the day. I also only paint during daylight.
> 4. How do I clean the #!@$@# primer out of the paint gun? The stuff was
> rather solid nearly immediately, and neither the reducer nor mineral
> spirits cleaned it out. (I did spray enough solution through the gun
> that I *think* it'll work the next time I try to use it.)
>
> 5. Any comments re: Dupont VariPrime?
I'm using a one pot vynal-etch primer, so far so good.
I also use cans of "Tempo" Zinc-oxide from time to time.
Spray thinner through the gun & generally clean up real well
after spraying, I leave a little clean thinner in the bottom
of the spray-gun when I'm not using it.
Hope this helps,
Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Stephen Bell |
Lincoln University, \--------------------(*)--------------------/
Canterbury,
New Zealand. NIMBUS II - Driver XX
RV 6 - Growing in the garage.
E-Mail: S.Bell(at)ono.lincoln.ac.nz work
steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz play
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Questions re: painting |
re: Joe Larsen's painting questions
First, nothing says that you gotta prime everything. Take a look inside
a 30 or 40 year old Cessna sometime. Unless it was a floatplane CEssna
did not prime it. On the other hand, if you live near an ocean or where
it is very humid, then it probably would be a good idea to prime everything.
Most people on this list do prime everything, but I know I don't really
need to.
Variprime: yup. good stuff. Of all the primers I've used, I think Variprime
is the best etch/primer/corrosion resistant primer there is.
Spray gun: Get one of these spray guns that use a paper cup as the
paint reservior. It is good enough for priming and requires almost
zero cleanup. I run about a quarter cup of laquer thinner thru mine
after each session, and it cleans it up just fine.
Paint booth: For priming, forget it. That's overkill. I just
go out into my back yard and shoot primer. It dries so quickly that:
1. you don't have a problem with bugs getting trapped in the wet paint
2. The overspary is dry before it hits anything.
Besides, the overspray is minimal. (Overspray from a gun is a
heck of a lot less than from an aerosol can.)
Touch-up: Buy a can of aerosol zinc chromate primer.
prime before or after drilling: Well, that depends. I'd rather
not have primer in my rivet holes. But the primer in a bolt hole
is a good thing. In actuality, though, I usually prime after
I've finished drilling, dimpling, etc.
cleaning your gun now: completely disassemble it and soak it
overnite in some lacquer thinner. That should soften up anything
inside. Professional painters actually use a seperate gun for
priming. That way they don't have to get it surgically clean.
ONe last note: Wear a resperator and eye protection. I had an
aerosol can of silver spray paint blow up once and I looked like
the Tin Man from Wizard of Oz. (I got a check from Sherwin-WIlliams
for that one.)
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Don't know if this will work but I'll try it. Terry in Calgary asked for a
3 view to decide if he has the work space to build his RV. The attached
file is drawn in Generic Cadd 6 but should convert to AutoCad readily. If
the file doesn't travel well over the RV-List let me know and I will send it
to you directly. Just let me know your email address; mine is
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com . The drawing was done by Tony Howard, one
of our local builders here in the Puget Sound area. By the way, Terry, feel
free to mention the article in Aircraft Ownership by Ron Wanttaja (or
however he spells it; it's pronounced "Juan tie ya"). Ron is one of our
local success stories.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Who wants to pay full price?? |
Randall Henderson asked me how I get discounts for our members. It's quite
easy, really. Just go into the store, look up the manager or owner and
mention that you're the President of a group of pilots and airplane
owner/builders that want to buy whatever the store sells. As soon as the
owner hears the words pilots, airplane owners, etc he immediately believes
we have an excess of money and, obviously since we fly planes we BUILD IN
OUR BASEMENTS, we must be somewhat feeble-minded and easily stripped of our
fortunes.
Now while he is busy thinking of all the money he'll make from us I casually
mention that we'd appreciate a slight discount from him, somewhere in the
neighborhood of 20 to 30% would be nice. He may gasp somewhat but usually
most stores make lots more than 20 to 30% on each sale. If he is still
struggling with the concept of making less than the normal 200% profit I'll
mention that we have over 100 members, most of which are still building and
spending money. Now he is on the ropes. Sometimes to really set the hook
I'll mention the 25% discount we get from the store down the street. Oh,
one thing I forgot to mention, you MUST buy something before you start
talking about the discount. The unfortunate thing about this is that I,
myself, have to pay full or near full price before I bargain for the
discount. Alas, the price one has to pay to wear the crown.
Bear in mind the worst thing that can happen when you ask for a discount is
that you will be turned down. Don't take it personally, maybe he just is
having a bad hair day. Remember NEVER PAY LIST PRICE!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Three Views in Generic CADD |
I got the three views I was looking from from John Ammeter. I don't have the
conversion utility on my home computer, but I'll try tomorrow at the office, and
let the list know if it works...thanx, John!
By the way, John's too modest :-) to mention that he was the featured RV-6
builder/owner in Ron Wanttaja's book "Aircraft Ownership". The article starts
on page 104 of the book. It's actually what got me started thinking about the
RV line. Check it out!
Regards...Terry in Calgary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Priming Discussion |
I've been following the discussion on priming over the last couple of days, and
I'll be honest with you folks, the reason I am contemplating going with an all
metal aircraft (as opposed to composite) was to at least partially avoid all the
hazardous chemicals. Sounds like quite a hassle this priming stuff.
My question is this...would an acceptable alternative be to have a aviation shop
do the priming for you? The idea I'm thinking of would be to collect up all the
parts for a particular sub-assembly, take them down to the airport, and let a
qualified shop hassle with the spraying and cleanup. Has anybody taken this
approach? Of course, it'll be more costly, but I think worth it, in the long
run.
Really great, discussion, folks, thanx...Terry in Calgary.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | To Prime Or Not To Prime |
Priming of the aluminum will help with preserving the aluminum surface. I
think we can all agree on that. In fact, if one is really dedicated you can
also aluma-prep and alodyne (not sure of the spelling) the surface before
priming it.
However, unless you intend to build an RV-6F like Eustace Bowheys in Salmon
Arm, BC, my feeling is that priming only where you have aluminum riveted to
another piece is probably as much as you have to do. Cessna didn't even do
that and their airplanes last many years. Most of us will keep our aircraft
under cover and out of the weather nearly all of the time. In fact, if you
have a wooden prop, you may not even fly in rain unless unavoidable.
As far as taking your prepared parts to a paint shop for priming-----well, I
can think of many things I'd rather be doing. What I did while building my
RV-6 was to wait until I ran out of clecos (or patience) and then prepare
and prime everything at once. Wasn't really a problem. One primer that
I've seen do a good job is Dupont Variprime 616S/651S. You can mix it and
it will last several hours in the spray can. Someone told me that it will
last for a couple of days if the ambient temperature is on the cool side.
Never tried that, though.
John Ammeter, N16JA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | klgray(at)bihs.net (Ken Gray) |
For the ones using Dupont Variprime.
I use Variprime, the left over after painting parts, I place in a glass jar
with a flip up lid and use the material 3 to 4 weeks later.
As for cleaning the sprayer, use lacquer thiner.
For those HAMS, I am on 147.42 simplex, if I am not on, my wife will hear you.
Ken Gray AA5VF, Fran Gray N5IOM
RV 6 SN: 23069
Mounting the Canopy on. 1 year and 7 months into building.
Bryan Airport (CFD)
Bryan, Texas
PS: Just sold my Cessna 175A, with a 215HP Franklin engine, using the money
to finish up my RV!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Questions re: painting -Reply |
showpg!jpl(at)matronics.com
>>> Joe Larson
07/03/95
03:30pm >>>
Well, last weekend I set up a mini paint
booth in my garage and primed some parts.
Yuck! Boy, did I do it wrong.
So now I have a number of other ideas that
I thought I would bounce off the gang here.
1. If I pre-prime parts before machining
(drilling rivet holes), do I need
to touch-up? Do I have to do this
before riveting?
I would think you would want to other wise
why prime. Some people dunk their rivets in
primer just before setting them.
2. Can I touch-up with a paint brush, or do
I *have* to spray?
Yes
3. I'm thinking of building a tent-like
structure in my yard. It would be
built on tent poles and 5 tarps - top
plus 4 sides -- to build a cube
big enough I can stand in. Comments?
Anyone have a better idea?
Why I bought a 3M respirater and you dont
smell anything, Variprime drys in the air
and the overspray can be wiped /vaccumed
off. I spray in front of the garage with
the empanage box as a drop cloth.
4. How do I clean the #!@$@# primer out of
the paint gun? The stuff was
rather solid nearly immediately, and
neither the reducer nor mineral
spirits cleaned it out. (I did spray
enough solution through the gun
that I *think* it'll work the next time
I try to use it.)
Use plain lacquer thinner or acetone to
clean up. It will even clean off dried
Variprime. I've never had it get hard in
the gun. You could also buy one of those
little Dochen touch up guns from Avery then
the clean up is minimal. I only use my Big
gun on skins.
5. Any comments re: Dupont VariPrime?
I use it an like it just fine. Be sure to
etch the Aluminum first with Alumiprep.
This made all the difference for me. The
variprime doesent run as easily and it
sticks much better. The alumiprep is much
cheaper and seems less hostile than
acetone. No worries about oils in it
either. A gallon thinned 4 to 7 to 1 will
last a whole airplane.
JIM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Priming Discussion |
Regarding Joe Larson's priming questions.....
Joe: We are having a MN Wing meeting at Crystal Airport this Sat (10 am).
We'll be glad to answer your questions on priming or any other topics. Or give
me a call (715-386-1239) and I'll help any way I can. Plus you are always
welcome to come over to my shop and we can practice priming to your heart's
content!!!
Hope to hear from you!
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)mail.magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re(2): Questions re: painting |
I used the water based two part primer but unfortunately can't remember the
name.(perhaps someone else could provide it). It was probably one of the
better moves I made as priming became somewhat of a breeze and and something
I hated doing a lot less than I had before. Clean up was also much easier as
everything washed down with water.
Ken
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To Prime Or Not To Prime |
--- snip ---
One primer that I've seen do a good job is Dupont Variprime 616S/651S. You
can mix it and it will last several hours in the spray can. Someone told me
that it will last for a couple of days if the ambient temperature is on the
cool side. Never tried that, though.
--- snip ---
A tip someone gave me that I really like is to place the unused Variprime
in a glass jar and place it in your freezer. The stuff lasts for months.
Just let it warm up to room temperature and stir. If the consistency is
the same "thin" stuff, then it is OK to use. If it is thicker, discard it.
I've used the stuff months later and it still passes the "24 hour masking
tape pull test".
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Van's Builder's Course |
I received the Van's info packet in the mail yesterday, and my level of
enthusiasm for getting the project underway has really shot up! One thing that
was mentioned was a "one week builders course" that is given about once a
quarter...has anybody on this list attended this, and if so, did you feel it was
worthwhile experience, particularly in advance of getting underway. Any
thoughts or comments would be much appreciated...regards...Terry in Calgary
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: To Prime Or Not To Prime |
I just want to mention one advantage of priming that I don't think has
been brought up before. I have been priming everything with a good epoxy
primer and I think it does a great job of protecting the aluminum skins
during assembly and riveting. My skins seem to take quite a bit of abuse
during the riveting process, with bucking bars slipping off, rubbing
against the skin, etc. This is especially a problem when "blind" riveting
the final skins on the wing, since you can't see what you are doing wiht
the bucking bar very well. My primed surfaces have plenty of scratches on
the primer, and those scratches would have been in the aluminum had I not
primed.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Gentlemen:
I know we all have every penny allocated to our RV's, but if any RV-Lister
knows of anyone looking for an outstanding aircraft, I have just put my 1959
Cessna 180B up for sale. It won best Contemporary Custom Class II at OSH last
year, totally restored with new paint, interior, instruments, and many, many
other items. IFR equipped. 1075 SMOH, 570 SMOH. $55,000 with a new annual and
will deliver to any continental U.S. city served by Northwest. For pictures and
details, call me (715-386-1239)
Thanks,
Doug Weiler, MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's Builder's Course |
RE>Van's Builder's Course 7/6/95 2:03 PM
I was an insructor 'of sorts' in this course in the early 90's. The tour came
through my wing shop at Phlogiston... the students had many questions... I was
able to point to a in-process wing for answers...
if you can afford the time... come to Oregon~ It never hurts to hear the man himself
tell you how it "should" look... and as an added bonus you will get to
meet a very under-rated not mentioned enough for his contributions...'Art Chard'
Art is a master builder. His workmanship is what text book pictures are made of.
He can do things you just don't imagine...and his template collection will
make you drewl~ He is a good teacher and was my quiet mentor during my wing-building
days.
Sign up~
Doug Miner
--------------------------------------
Date: 7/6/95 1:23 PM
From: Terence C. Gannon
I received the Van's info packet in the mail yesterday, and my level of
enthusiasm for getting the project underway has really shot up! One thing that
was mentioned was a "one week builders course" that is given about once a
quarter...has anybody on this list attended this, and if so, did you feel it was
worthwhile experience, particularly in advance of getting underway. Any
thoughts or comments would be much appreciated...regards...Terry in Calgary
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: 06 Jul 95 08:07:02 EDT
From: "Terence C. Gannon" <compuserve.com!74267.3003(at)matronics.COM>
Subject: Van's Builder's Course
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <74710.2737(at)compuserve.com> |
I stumbled onto the RV list while I was floundering arround in Mosaic. Before I
had been looking for information from Avsig in Compuserve.
I am building an RV 6A, I started Feb 94, and I have finished the wings,
empannage, and I am just covering the fuselage. Thsi weekend I will put on the
landing gear.
I have very little experience, but I built a Challenger Ultralight two years
ago. I fell out of love with it after two engine failures - my hair, which was
brown, is now grey. No adequate cause for the Hirth engine quitting was found.
I am a retired GP, and I publish a humor magazine for physicians.
One of my pronblems with building an RV, is a lack of knowledge of very simple
mechanical facts - sometimes I am almost embarassed to ask. For example, for
the first month I didn't know that the rivet sqeezer could be adjusted, which
made sqeezing rivets interesting. I worked out an ingenious way of using
spacers.
With the Challenger, I drilled 100 holes in 1/4" tubing, in one hour -- with
the drill running backwards. This should be in the Guiness Book of Records. It
was my son who finally said, "You will find that easier with the drill running
forward", proving that children do have some uses.
Meanwhile I am anxious to learn. I am following the discussion on instrument
lay-outs, as I am coming up to that.
I also need an engine, preferably one which does not stop suddenly. I have been
looking at 320s and 360s, they seem very expensive. I like the idea of a Subaru,
does anyone have one installed in an RV ?
John.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "michael draper" <michael_draper(at)stream.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's Builder's Course |
I attended the one week builders course three years ago and found it
to be a bargain. Best "working vacation" I've ever had. I attended
the class with the objective of evaluating both my skills, the
aircraft, and the company.
After a week in the shop at Van's you will come away with a good
understanding and appreciation of what it takes to build an RV. You
can make mistakes, catch some tips and learn a lot without the worry
of experimenting on your bird. You will also have the opportunity to
see first hand how well Van's organization is run and rub elbows with
Art the maestro, and the rest of the crew.
And yes, I am still wearing the RV grin I received on the third day
after an incredible flight in the RV6a. Considering the amount of
time and money you will end up spending on an RV, its a good
investment.
The most difficult part of the class was explaining to the family why
it was a good idea for me to spend a week at Vans.
Good Luck,
-MD
Michael_Draper(at)stream.com
617.440.1097
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Van's Builder's Course
Author: "Terence C. Gannon"
at Internet
Date: 7/6/95 8:07 AM
I received the Van's info packet in the mail yesterday, and my level
of enthusiasm for getting the project underway has really shot up!
One thing that was mentioned was a "one week builders course" that is
given about once a quarter...has anybody on this list attended this,
and if so, did you feel it was worthwhile experience, particularly in
advance of getting underway. Any thoughts or comments would be much
appreciated...regards...Terry in Calgary
________________________________________________________________________________
We had Monday, the 3rd off and I made good use of the time
and manged to finish both main wing spars! I'm pretty psyched
about moving along with the wings but as usual have a lot of
other projects around the house that I want to work on.
I used a press made with a 2-ton hydraulic jack to set the
3/16th rivets and it worked just fine. I think mine was the
third set of spars done with this press and I know more will
be done using it.
This week is the Arlington fly-in and I plan to be there
on Saturday, the 8th. Too bad we don't have some way of
identifying people on the list who are attending. Hopefully,
we can meet up at the picnic sponsored by the Puget Sound
RVators during the air show. Maybe we need some kind of
patch for the RV-listers!?
Hope to see some of you on Saturday.
Doug Medema RV-6A a-building! dougm@physio-control.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: Van's Builder's Course |
Terence,
I went to the builder's clinic last October and posted a review here on the RV
list. Check the back issues for a Nov 3rd posting.
In summary, I found it very useful and motivational. I learned the correct way
to do many tasks needed in the empennage and wing, learned it's ok to screw up
sometimes (learned how picky some things have to be and not others), and got
over the hesitation to drill that first hole! My wife took the course with me
(it was her idea, honest ;) ) and this makes her the perfect builder's aid (she
can rivet better than I can). She also got a ride in the factory RV6A to see
why I started this project in the first place. Well, worth the $200 plus for
someone not experienced in sheet metal work, plus it was fun to visit the
birthplace of our kits.
On Jul 6, 8:07am, Terence C. Gannon wrote:
> Subject: Van's Builder's Course
> I received the Van's info packet in the mail yesterday, and my level of
> enthusiasm for getting the project underway has really shot up! One thing
that
> was mentioned was a "one week builders course" that is given about once a
> quarter...has anybody on this list attended this, and if so, did you feel it
was
> worthwhile experience, particularly in advance of getting underway. Any
> thoughts or comments would be much appreciated...regards...Terry in Calgary
>
>-- End of excerpt from Terence C. Gannon
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
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________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: New Subsciber |
Not to be negative John, but every 'bolt-on' Subaru solution I have seen costs
3-5 thousand dollars more than my proven, reliable old O-360 ($9,000 rebuilt).
June 09, 1995 - July 06, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-am