RV-Archive.digest.vol-ap
August 14, 1995 - September 01, 1995
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Tail Kit Questions |
Scott, If the plans don't call for cutting out the holes I would suggest you
don't do it. I noticed some of the photographs in the construction manual
showed additional lightning holes cut in sections of the horizontal
stabilizer, these weren't called for in my plans so I didn't cut them. My
advice is to stay with the plans, just one less thing you'll have to worry
about at night at 11,000 feet over the Rocky Mountains. Also, I checked my
plans and my rudder rib has no stiffner rings, my VS 404 vertical stabilizer
rib has rings and the plans call for cutting the holes. As far as the rivet
heads, I made sure all rivets shop heads were set correctly and left the
manufactured heads out for show. Makes for a prettier and more consistant
finished product and also I believe access to the manufactured head would be
necessary if you ever needed to drill one out. One last thing, after faxing
my order to vans two weeks ago, they indicated they proposed (no Promises) to
ship my wing kit on September 2. Assuming two weeks for travel to S.
Illinois that puts delivery for my wings at approximately 10 weeks, keep that
in mind for your scheduling. I didn't and looks like I'll be sitting on my
ass for 8 more weeks
Chet Razer in Sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Wing Tip Position Lenses |
I am moving my position lights from the outside of the wing tips to a flush
position on my RV using the optional wing tip position lenses (part # LN
CLEAR LENS KIT). I have cut the lens from the plastic and have drawn the
outline of the lens on the tip. Before I start cutting the fiberglass (I
hate this stuff), does anybody out there kwow how the bulkheads fit into the
wing tip and how the lenses attach to the bulkhead? The plans that were
included in the kit suck and I can't quite figure-out which end is up and how
they attach.
Thanks For Your Help
Gary
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Samuel.R.Pavel.1(at)nd.edu (Sam Pavel) |
Greetings RV enthusiasts,
I recently joined the list and would like to submit a brief introduction.
My main purpose for joining the list is to gather information. I would like
to begin building an aircraft soon, but I'm not exactly sure which one to
build. The RV is at the top of my list. I live in South Bend IN and was
wondering if there was anyone near that is in the process of building, or
has built an RV. I would love to see it and discuss the process with you.
You can e-mail me or give me a call (219)273-0321.
I look forward to learning from everyone and hope to be a contributor in the
future.
Sam
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv list)
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce |
This sounds so familiar:
I ordered a throttle cable from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. It came
promptly but was bent about 45 degrees near the control end. I called ASS
(appropriate acronym) and was told to return the defective part by UPS. I
asked them to send me a new control cable immediately as I needed it RIGHT
NOW. No problem, according to them. That was over 5 years ago. I have yet
to receive a refund for the bent cable that I returned to them.
I called them several times with the same response as Donald Karl. They
would take care of it, the paperwork was in the mill, etc. I even talked to
them at Arlington during the airfair.
Now, whenever someone asks me who to call for parts I tell them to use ASS's
catalog but call Wag-Aero or Wicks. Don't order anything from ASS. They
don't really care about the small customer anymore.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
>In reference to returns at Aircraft Spruce:
>
>I placed an order by Visa. I was billed, but they lost the
>invoice and never even sent my order (headset). They admitted
>the mistake freely (I had proof anyway). Next they sent the
>wrong headset. I was in a hurry as this process had taken
>months up to this point and I really needed this headset, so
>I asked if I could purchase the correct set while I
>simultaneously return the incorrect headset for a refund (all
>this as opposed to a regular exchange). I promptly got the
>new set, returned the old, and I still haven't gotten reimbursed
>for the old set.
>
>This whole process has taken 4 months. The sales people were
>nice, the customer service people were not reliable. I received
>numerous statements saying how sorry they were and it'll get
>taken care of right away, but it never did. The many long distance
>phone calls have made this far from a bargain. I'll try not to
>order from them again. I suspect the breakdown of their system
>in my order has to do with the organization style where one
>person does not take ownership a customer issue. I've delt with
>so many people its a joke. It's sad, cuz most of the people
>were nice people.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
>
________________________________________________________________________________
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| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
Hi! Matt asked me to post some info as a new member.
pla_ems(at)nmia.com
Dan Boudro
505.889.7241 w
505.275.3179 h
Albuquerque, NM
RV-4 #3933 in construction finishing wings
I build RV-4 N2190M a few years ago and sold it, this
is the second airplane for me and hope to have it
ready summer 96.
I'm an electrical engineer, work full time, otherwise
I'm building!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-LIST Flames... |
On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, Matronics Technical Support 1+ 510-447-9886 wrote:
> --------------
> >
> > Matt,
> > I opened my mailbox this morning to find World War III underway.
> > I found the remarks and open hostility displayed by Mr. Remi Khu to be
> > offensive and out of line. I enjoy the camraderie that we have here on the
> > list and I am disturbed by his flames against Jerry Springer.
> >
>
>
> (Matt's message to Remi Khu deleted)
>
I've corresponded with Remi via private e-mail several times since that
incident, and I think Remi realizes he was out of line. (From the tone
of his comments to me, I think he realized it about 3 nanoseconds after
he sent that last message. :-) )
He truly is sorry and embarrased, but I think he is also too embarassed
to speak up again here. We are all human, I guess.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)primenet.com |
| Subject: | FW: Spraying nasty stuff - question |
Imron is truly nasty stuff, I can't think of another chemical or paint that I have
used.
A charcoal mask is marginal, can loose its ability to protect you without warning,
and is not effective when there is not a lot of ventalation (high conventrations
of
Imron in the air).
If I was going to paint (Imron) in a confined space, a forced fresh air system
is a must. A tyvex
suit and latex gloves is a must too; the stuff WILL go through your skin. Ever
notice that
you don't see a lot of old painters around?
I would not screw around with using shop air that comes from a compressor that
has a oil filled crankcase. There are some teflon piston, oil less compressors
out there
for less that $100, watch for contamination in the air hoses, etc. Shopvac? Maybe,
if
its a new one and you flush the system to make sure there is no stuff or vapors,
etc. in
it.
The $350 forced air setup that came on the market in the past 6 months seems like
the
best and safest bet.
I have not checked the price for a new set of lungs lately but I bet the price
won't be
comming down soon...
Good luck, stay healthy.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | mail order troubles and erroneous charges -- chatter |
Text item:
Yup, I've had one minor problem with Aircraft Spruce. I ordered an
Apollo 920+ from them and the A.S. ad said shipping was included
in the price. The item came in on UPS from Gulf Coast Electronics
with a shipping charge and no reference to A.S. or explanation of
why it was shipped from a totally unexpected merchant. When I
attempted to clear it up with A.S., the first service folks I talked
to were also confused and this created a hassle. I finally found
someone who was happy to give me a credit for the shipping but I
never really found out what was going on.
Just last week I found a $76 charge on one of my credit card statements
from Chief Aircraft. I've done business with them in the past but
not formany months. It took a couple of phone calls to them to get
a credit issued and they apologized for the error of simply charging
someone else's order to my card number. Geez, makes me wonder how
many of these I've missed in the past 'cause I'm not the best when
it comes to checking these things each month. Once they've got your
card number, be aware!
Calin
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Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:04:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Aircraft Spruce
From: dg-rtp.dg.com!karl(at)matronics.com (Donald Karl)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Wing skins -or- I've GOT to meet this guy |
Text item:
>--------------
>> Van's answer was:
>>
>> "The single skin is heavier; you don't get performance by
>> being lazy."
>
>Why do I think an hour's conversation with Van would be very
>informative and interesting?
>
>Joe Larson
In the course of researching various ways of doing things I have talked to Van
a
few times. He seems to have one basic message, which really appeals to me if not
a lot of other builders. The message is: Build it like the plans, don't muck
with it, it flies great like it is, don't waste your time trying to do things to
go a negligible amount faster or look a little prettier. Get the thing flying!
FKJ
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Subject: Re: Wing skins -or- I've GOT to meet this guy
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 21:17:56 -0700
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Spraying nasty stuff |
Gil Alexander wrote:
>
> John Hovan recently warned me about spraying Imron, and we have all
> heard the warnings about this paint, and other polyurethane paints
> containing isocynates ... thanks for the thought, John.
>
> I want to start some Imron painting inside my RV6A soon, and need
> some protection since I don't really want to kill myself :^)
>
Gil,
In my more youthful days I had a hobby of fixing up cars. One time I
"graduated" to urethane paint (similar to imron). I sprayed the whole car with
nothing more than a 79 cent 3M paint mask and holding my breath. That night,
I felt like I had to force myself to breathe (real scary). That experience
convinced me to hang up my paint gun permanantly. When my plane is ready, it
will be going to a shop to be sprayed by someone else. That Urethane paint is
NASTY NASTY stuff! If you decide to do it yourself, please consider using
absolute maximum personal protection. Good luck! :-)
Mike Graves
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Re: Replacements |
I heard that the RV-12 is a biplane version of the RV-6.
>So, if the eventual replacement for the RV-4 is the RV-8. Is the RV-6 going
>to be supplanted by the RV-10, or RV-12? And what is the RV-7?
>:-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Wing Skinnin' (chatter) |
Frank Justice relayed Van's message:
> ... The message is: Build it like the plans, don't muck
> with it, it flies great like it is, don't waste your time trying to do things
to
> go a negligible amount faster or look a little prettier. Get the thing flying!
Frank, you and Van have both violated the homebuilders' code. This blatantly
flies in the face of 'tinker until you screw something up'. May I see
your papers, please?
Dave Hyde
RV-spin research (almost) abandoned
not tinkering, but still screwing up.
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
| Subject: | CFI process (chatter) |
A question for the group that is loosely related to RV's ...
Aside from a few flights with my buddy in his travelair I've been out
of the cockpit for almost 2 yrs now. Prior to that I was flying for a
living as a military flight instructor. I've converted all my ratings
with the exception of the instructor qual.
As a means of funding my project (see this applys to the list, :)) I
thought I'd pursue a CFI ticket and get in a little part time work on
the side while staying current as the project progresses.
Here's the question, I've got several years experience in all phases as
an instructor current ratings include ATP ME, CSEL, does anyone have
any idea how much of an investment I can expect to make in the ticket.
Dan
RV-6
23101
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
Sorry I am late, but I would like to be on the list or regular readers.
Dr John Cocker,
Newmarket, Ontario
RV 6A
Have finished the empannage, wings, and am busy on the fuselage. ETA Spring
96.
I am a retired family doctor, ex Flight Surgeon, and I publish a humor
magazine for physicians.
(Send your address for a free copy). I have been a certifiable aviation nut
since age 10, when Spitfires were all the rage. I took a few years off flying,
and went sailing for three years in 1981. I managed to get half way round the
world. Now I am flying a Cherokee 180, awaiting the RV 6 being finished.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Skinnin' (chatter) |
Text item:
>Frank, you and Van have both violated the homebuilders' code. This blatantly
>flies in the face of 'tinker until you screw something up'.
True. Some of the best methods in the instructions came from people who were
determined to do it different.
FKJ
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 95 13:52:34 EDT
Subject: Wing Skinnin' (chatter)
From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com>
1)
I-4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Cost of Ownership |
There's a thread going on one of the rec.aviation groups about the cost of
owning a certified aircraft, and one person was delineating the thousands of
dollars of fixed costs he pays, even if he didn't fly at all that year. The
advice being that just because you can afford to buy it doesn't mean you can
afford to keep it.
So, what does it cost to own your homebuilt after you've finished building it?
(Not counting operating costs).
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
ptdcs2.intel.com!mgraves(at)matronics.com (Michael Graves) writes:
>Ken Scott of Van's
>said a few words about the "-8". He said not to expect a kit for at least 2
>years, an the -8 of today is not necessarily the same as the kit of
tomorrow.
I spoke with Jerry V. about the availability of the RV-8 kit at OSH, and
contrary to what Mr. Scott told you, I was told that the RV-8 empenage kit
should be available the end of this year or early next year.
He also said that the "8" would undergo some changes along the way, but at no
time did he say two years. Specific changes mentioned where the seating and
instrument panel.
At the RV-3,4,8 seminar that Van gave on Monday or Tuesday, he did not even
come out and say that the RV-8 was going to be produced, but then, on the
other hand, the things he did say indicated that alot of things concerning
the marketing of the RV-8 and the eventual discontinuation (yes, he did say
that it would be discontinued at some point in time) of the RV-4 had been
well thought out in advance.
Finally, had you seen the interest the RV-8 was generating at OSH.... well,
if I had a hot product like that I wouldn't wait two years to get it out the
door. I'll bet you a dozen donuts and a coffee that this time next year the
RV-8 empenage kits will be shipping.
It's a nice plane... just right for us "non-standard" pilots. B-)
Noel
MK III on gear, heck, I even attached the rudder for fun Sunday. RV-6 on
hold `til its done... Honestly, I'm working as fast as I can!
"Only a fool lets his wife sit behind him after spending 30K+ on an RV-4, get
thee a "6"! That way you can keep an eye on her" "Channeling and the Art of
Homebuilding" N. O. More (pre-prozak era).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Cost of Ownership |
You really gotta take cost estimates (for a spam-can OR a homebuilt) with
a grain of salt. Costs can vary all over the map. At the local airport,
I can pay $110/mo for a t-hanger or $36/mo for a covered tie-down.
That's just one example. The annual inspection is another good example.
When I belonged to a Bonanza partnership, our annuals could be guaranteed
to be either >$4000 or <$1000, depening upon whether WE did the work, or
we just turned the airplane over to an FBO.
If you are willing to get your hands greasy and do the actual work
yourself, the fixed costs will be the same for either a homebuilt or a
comparable spam-can.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russ_Nichols_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From Russ_Nichols_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING Tue Aug 15 18:00:51 0700 1995 remote
from fire.ca.gov
From: Russ_Nichols_at_SAC__DATA__PROCESSING(at)fire.ca.gov (Russ Nichols)
f15.n140.z1.fidonet.org!Marc.Degirolamo(at)matronics.com (Marc Degirolamo)
Subject: Re: wing skinning
This is a Mime message, which your current mail reader
may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as
text. To process the rest, you will have to use a Mime
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details.
--IMA.Boundary.808535083
Marc,
a couple people here is Sacramento have done this. They painted the
skins with a flat black paint, then used large lights (similar to heat
lamp bulbs) to heat the skins until they were quite warm to the touch.
The paint was garden variety spray paint that they are willing to
strip later. I think they heated the skins during drilling and
skinning, but I'm not sure. I know they were hot during the riveting
process. The skins turned out VERY taught. That's all I know. Both
planes are still in the building phase, so I don't have any info about
long-term effects.
russ
While I'm on the topic of skins.. have any of you "heated" the skins
while riveting them on..would you recommend doing this and if so what procedure
did you use.
--IMA.Boundary.808535083
.1)
From: f15.n140.z1.fidonet.org!Marc.Degirolamo(at)matronics.com (Marc Degirolamo)
Date: 12 Aug 95 21:58:26 -0400
Subject: wing skinning
--IMA.Boundary.808535083--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: US Tools dimplimg tools |
When I started building, I ordered 100 1/8 inch and 400 3/32 clecos from US
Tools.. They had the best price, and I had about 100 of each from a previous
project. I still can't believe this, but it is true. Almost all of the 1/8
inch clecos didn't work! You could insert them, and the tangs wouldn't
retract. I checked my drill size, my sanity, and all else. A lot of them
would stick when extended.
Then I had an amazing converstaion with their salesman. He said they had
never heard of such a problem, but go ahead and send them back. I did, and
got replacements that worked ok.. but... did I get the only bad clecos in the
world?
Bruce (Fues in the jig) Patton
________________________________________________________________________________
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| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | RV-4 & GPS antennas |
I'd like to know where other RV-4 builders put their GPS antennas. I wanted
to put it in a wing tip but TERRA insists it will not work. Their's is about
4x4"x1/2" high. Thanks.
Dan RV-4 #3933 finishing wings (I've installed the VOR and ELT antennas in
the wing tips)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Tail Kit Lighting Holes |
Cut 'em out....it may seem insignificant now but anytime you can save weight,
do it. If you cut inside the ring you will not give up any strength. RV's
tend to be tail heavy anyway.
If you want to see if lighting holes are worth the effort, save all the
cut-outs in a box. When the aircraft is done, weigh them. I'll bet that
there are close to 20 lbs. of cut-outs in the box when you're done (10 lbs.
in the wings alone). Thats a lot of weight.
Remember the latest Van-ism..."you don't get performance by being lazy"
Nuf Said
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: rv-8 [deciding words] |
> Ken Scott of Van's said a few words about the "-8". He said not to
> expect a kit for at least 2 years, an the -8 of today is not
> necessarily the same as the kit of tomorrow.
> I spoke with Jerry V. about the availability of the RV-8 kit at OSH, and
> contrary to what Mr. Scott told you, I was told that the RV-8 empenage kit
> should be available the end of this year or early next year.
Now we have the battle of the dates. On the left side we have one source
from Van's reportedly saying two years. On the right side we have the
brother of the designer saying six to eight months. And the winner is?
Well, there is no winner, because Van's doesn't even know. However, we
have been given a sort-of-official estimate:
-expect an empennage kit the last quarter of this year, or the first
quarter of next year
-about every six months thereafter, the next section of the kit will be
available (wing, fuselage, finishing) [6mo+6mo+6mo+6mo = 2yrs]
-the price of the complete kit will _probably_ be near that of the RV-6/6A
> He also said that the "8" would undergo some changes along the way, but at no
> time did he say two years. Specific changes mentioned where the seating and
> instrument panel.
True, Van has several aspects of the fuselage that are subject to
change. In fact, during Oshkosh, very few people (only the most
insistent) were permitted to sit in the aircraft - the area most likely
to be redesigned.
> Finally, had you seen the interest the RV-8 was generating at OSH.... well,
> if I had a hot product like that I wouldn't wait two years to get it out the
> door. I'll bet you a dozen donuts and a coffee that this time next year the
> RV-8 empenage kits will be shipping.
Yes, the interest was much better than we had expected. I'd bet $$$$
rather than donuts and coffee. Countless times, customers said this of
the RV-8 - "this is the best so far!" Of course, this is only from
looking at the aircraft, and viewing the meager stats that were floating
around.
Looking for published info about the RV-8? Well, don't look to far. ALL
that has been written is a couple of stats that I tried to post all
around the booth at Oshkosh. If I can find a copy, I will transfer
everything said to Van's web page. The URL will be available tonight or
tomorrow.
Disclaimer: while the information contained herein was garnered from
official sources from Van's Aircraft, all estimates, figures, and
descriptions are merely preliminary, and should be considered that.
Jeremy
jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "de Solla, C." <de_solla_c(at)jpmorgan.com> |
| Subject: | Jon Johannson/RV4 in U.K. |
Anyone who went to Oshkosh will have heard of Jon Johannson and his modified
RV4, in which he is travelling around the world and setting various records
(including the longest period without changing his underwear!).
Well the intrepid aviator is coming to England and he will be staying with me
and my boyfriend David in London. He is landing at Biggin Hill Airport on
Friday 18th August. Anyone wishing to join us at any time during his stay
will be welcomed with open arms. There's a Bar-B-Q on Saturday and plenty to
drink.
If you would just like us to ask him some questions on your behalf then I
will be delighted to respond to all e-mails. You can telephone too if you
like.
Carol de Solla/David Coleman (RV6 Rudder)
(44-181) 666 7681 - David @ work
(44-181) 303 5512 - Davud @ home
(44-181) 505 7681 - Carol @ home
(Don't forget we're 5-8 hours ahead of you U.S. guys!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Text item:
Ken Scott was being "politically correct" by not committing the RV8 for
any time frame and also protecting his employment status. However, Bill
Benedict was at the same group meeting and did state the RV8 was
imminent. I called Van's Monday and asked for a preview package on the
-8. Not available at this time.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: rv-8
Date: 8/15/95 7:53 PM
ptdcs2.intel.com!mgraves(at)matronics.com (Michael Graves) writes:
>Ken Scott of Van's
>said a few words about the "-8". He said not to expect a kit for at least 2
>years, an the -8 of today is not necessarily the same as the kit of
tomorrow.
I spoke with Jerry V. about the availability of the RV-8 kit at OSH, and
contrary to what Mr. Scott told you, I was told that the RV-8 empenage kit
should be available the end of this year or early next year.
He also said that the "8" would undergo some changes along the way, but at no
time did he say two years. Specific changes mentioned where the seating and
instrument panel.
At the RV-3,4,8 seminar that Van gave on Monday or Tuesday, he did not even
come out and say that the RV-8 was going to be produced, but then, on the
other hand, the things he did say indicated that alot of things concerning
the marketing of the RV-8 and the eventual discontinuation (yes, he did say
that it would be discontinued at some point in time) of the RV-4 had been
well thought out in advance.
Finally, had you seen the interest the RV-8 was generating at OSH.... well,
if I had a hot product like that I wouldn't wait two years to get it out the
door. I'll bet you a dozen donuts and a coffee that this time next year the
RV-8 empenage kits will be shipping.
It's a nice plane... just right for us "non-standard" pilots. B-)
Noel
MK III on gear, heck, I even attached the rudder for fun Sunday. RV-6 on
hold `til its done... Honestly, I'm working as fast as I can!
"Only a fool lets his wife sit behind him after spending 30K+ on an RV-4, get
thee a "6"! That way you can keep an eye on her" "Channeling and the Art of
Homebuilding" N. O. More (pre-prozak era).
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Subject: Re: rv-8
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 19:53:22 -0400
I-4.1)
From: aol.com!AROCOMM(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: US Tools dimplimg tools |
Bill told me once about how Van's got a batch of mis-sized clecoes a
while back. I forget the details, but I believe they were undersized
for better fit with Boeing's pre-primed parts. Apparently a batch of
these got out to some of the GA outlets. Perhaps your oversized
clecoes are a result of a similar scenario.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> When I started building, I ordered 100 1/8 inch and 400 3/32 clecos from US
> Tools.. They had the best price, and I had about 100 of each from a previous
> project. I still can't believe this, but it is true. Almost all of the 1/8
> inch clecos didn't work! You could insert them, and the tangs wouldn't
> retract. I checked my drill size, my sanity, and all else. A lot of them
> would stick when extended.
> Then I had an amazing converstaion with their salesman. He said they had
> never heard of such a problem, but go ahead and send them back. I did, and
> got replacements that worked ok.. but... did I get the only bad clecos in the
> world?
>
> Bruce (Fues in the jig) Patton
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Well, I just figured I'd ask. Does anyone here know of a fuselage jig
in the Maryland/Virginia area that is or will be available soon?
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Tail kit questions |
>
> 1) Can I cut out the lightening holes on the bottom rudder rib? The plans don't
> call this out but the rings are there.
I'll bet it's ok to cut them out. If I were building my tail over again
I'd probably be cutting out a few more lightening holes even where
they're not specified. Problem is in being sure WHERE its ok to do so,
but I think if there's a stiffener ring there I'd feel fine about it.
> 2) Is there a correct direction for the rivets which hold the doublers to the
> spar channel? Manufactuerd head on the doubler or on the channel? Again
> I don't see this on the plans.
I don't remember if it's specified anywhere, but I don't think it
matters. Put em on the side that's easiest or prettiest.
Note that in general you want to put the factory heads against the
thinner material, especially on rib flanges and such. This minimizes
scalloping around the rivet head.
Randall Henderson.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "MIKE PILLA" <mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-4 & GPS antennas |
My hangar mate has his GPS antenna installed on the turtle deck skin
just under the aftmost portion of the canopy. That is where I am
planning to install my GPS antenna on my -4.
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-4 & GPS antennas
Date: 8/16/95 12:26 PM
I'd like to know where other RV-4 builders put their GPS antennas. I wanted
to put it in a wing tip but TERRA insists it will not work. Their's is about
4x4"x1/2" high. Thanks.
Dan RV-4 #3933 finishing wings (I've installed the VOR and ELT antennas in
the wing tips)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Gary Standley wrote:
>
> Ken Scott was being "politically correct"...
> ...However, Bill Benedict ... did state the RV8 was
> imminent.
> [a preview package was] (N)ot available at this time.
Fine, fine, but they're avoiding the important issues -
1. Is it going to have a tailhook?
2. Have they resolved the weapon separation issues I posted earlier?
3. Will the centerline station be plumbed and wired for an air-refueling store?
(I'd be happy to consult with Van's on how I addressed these issues on my -4)
What was Frank Justice saying about keeping it simple?
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Does anyone have any pictures they can make available via FTP of the -8?
Other info?
Thanks.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Preview plans received! #24179 |
| Study...study...look for tools...study.... |
|---------------------------------------------|
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | RV-4 & GPS antennas (fwd) |
I have an Apollo hand held. On the Pitts, I put it just behind my
head on the fuselage turtledeck where the canopy tapers down
(just like on a RV4). I just velcro it on.
On my RV4 (not yet flying), I was thinking of putting it on top
of the roll bar. There is a flat spot there and the Apollo GPS
Antenna is the small silver dollar size so it should fit on the
roll bar just fine.
>
> I'd like to know where other RV-4 builders put their GPS antennas. I wanted
> to put it in a wing tip but TERRA insists it will not work. Their's is about
> 4x4"x1/2" high. Thanks.
> Dan RV-4 #3933 finishing wings (I've installed the VOR and ELT antennas in
> the wing tips)
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
________________________________________________________________________________
from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com
with smtp
(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | RE: RV-4 and GPS antennas |
I guess I should mention the ELT is mounted in the same wing inside the
last rib. In an emergency the antenna and ELT should have a good chance
of surviving together. The only wire is to the switch in the cockpit
which runs through a 1/2" pvc to the tank, under the tank and into the
cockpit, if this is severed that's not a problem. To get to the ELT in
an emergency you need to breake the top of the wingtip off and release
it from the mount.
-dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Will an ELT mounted in the wing tip / wing, give more false alarms?
i.e.: G loads greater/lesser than cockpit.
What does TSO-91A recommend for mounting location?
Gary
-6 s/n: 20480 N-157GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail Kit Lighting Holes |
Another way of looking at this is 20 lbs X 6 Gs = 120 lbs, this is a
significant amout of weight! Someone else can figure out the moment force?
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Wed, 16 Aug 1995 aol.com!RV6junkie(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> Cut 'em out....it may seem insignificant now but anytime you can save weight,
> do it. If you cut inside the ring you will not give up any strength. RV's
> tend to be tail heavy anyway.
>
> If you want to see if lighting holes are worth the effort, save all the
> cut-outs in a box. When the aircraft is done, weigh them. I'll bet that
> there are close to 20 lbs. of cut-outs in the box when you're done (10 lbs.
> in the wings alone). Thats a lot of weight.
>
> Remember the latest Van-ism..."you don't get performance by being lazy"
>
> Nuf Said
>
> Gary Corde
> RV-6 N211GC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Skinnin' (chatter) |
>
> >Frank, you and Van have both violated the homebuilders' code. This blatantly
> >flies in the face of 'tinker until you screw something up'.
>
> True. Some of the best methods in the instructions came from people who were
> determined to do it different.
>
> FKJ
No kidding. Where would we all be today if some guy named
VanGrunsven hadn't decided he just had to design new wings for
a Stits Playboy?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Electric Flaps and Bulkhead F-605 |
For those of you who are like me and can't seem to be able to look
ahead enough, here is a tip when you are constructing the F-605
bulkhead.
If you are installing electric flaps, there is no need to cut the holes
in the F-605D side pieces. They are there for the Flap control arm to
pass through for manual flaps. For electric flaps the contol arm is
placed on the backside of F605 so no holes are ness. But then again, I
have just saved 5 grams of weight with these niffty lighting holes.
While I am at it, I'll remind you of two tips recently sent to me
re:F605. For electric flaps, Drill the plastic mounting blocks for the
flap control arm to F605D before installing in the jig.
Second, if you are going to use a tip-up canopy and electric flaps,
wait until you have installed Wd-617 before installing the electric
motor and housing to ensure non-interferance.
Ross Mickey
Bulkheads RV6-A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (Harold Sutphin) |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: US Tools dimplimg tools |
I once got a dozen jumbo eggs each containing a double yolk, haven't
gotten a single double since...
I also got a rivet squeezer from US Tools that could not be adjusted so
that the -5 thru -7 rivets could be squeezed. I sent it back.
So, stranger things could happen, even clecos that don't work.
Harold
RV-6A
//only 11,000 more rivets to go//
>
>When I started building, I ordered 100 1/8 inch and 400 3/32 clecos
from US
>Tools.. They had the best price, and I had about 100 of each from a
previous
>project. I still can't believe this, but it is true. Almost all of
the 1/8
>inch clecos didn't work! You could insert them, and the tangs
wouldn't
>retract. I checked my drill size, my sanity, and all else. A lot of
them
>would stick when extended.
>Then I had an amazing converstaion with their salesman. He said they
had
>never heard of such a problem, but go ahead and send them back. I
did, and
>got replacements that worked ok.. but... did I get the only bad clecos
in the
>world?
>
>Bruce (Fues in the jig) Patton
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
I've been reading all the chatter about Aircraft Spruce. Here's my comments.
I've had trouble with Enco tools in chicago, ordered some reamers and
assorted small stuff, no one on the phone knew anything, finally had to fax
orders. Don't do business with them any more. Have been purchasing some
stuff from Wicks (short drive away) with no problems, ordered almost all
tools from Cleavland Aircraft (CAT3Tools(at)aol.com) and have been 100%
satisfied.
chet Razer waiting on wing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: rv-8 (chatter) |
>Fine, fine, but they're avoiding the important issues -
>1. Is it going to have a tailhook?
Ah Comeon... If you can't land an RV pn the deck of a carrier withot the
tailhook you need some short field practice... :)
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (703) 478-9603
DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
FORE Systems TEL: (301) 564-4404
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 FAX: (301) 564-4408
Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: rv-8 (chatter) |
> >Fine, fine, but they're avoiding the important issues -
> >1. Is it going to have a tailhook?
>
> Ah Comeon... If you can't land an RV pn the deck of a carrier withot the
> tailhook you need some short field practice... :)
You know, I would pay money to see Video of an RV taking off and landing on a
Carrier, even one in port.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
ranger.ENET.dec.com!walsh(at)matronics.com writes:
>Noel and a couple of other friends who
>tortured me relentlessly over the RV8. They were not exactly subtle in
their
>hinting that I should abaondon my 4 and build an 8 instead.
Now John, thats not quite fair, had you a mirror to see the look on your
face.... well, I'm sure that I speak for all of your companions that we are
glad that you finally made up your mind that the 4 was what you wanted to
build, even if it did take you two and a half days of indecision.
I mean... what are friends for.
On the other hand.... since you mention it, I really don't like rubbing
elbows with my passengers, maybe I should take another look at the eight.
Did you take any pictures of it? I didn't.
(your turn)
On a completely different subject.
I got my OSH film developed and picked it up last night, I have photo's of
you, Steve and I, post-RV-flight. Even the girls at the office where able to
pick up on the Post-RV-Flight SEG displayed by the three of us.
And finally... John, send me some mail from your DEC account so I can capture
your address. Have you talked/heard from Steve since we got back?
Noel
AROCOMM(at)AOL.COM
The bird will be on its mains by tomorrow night, I hope!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: CFI process (chatter) |
Dan, I thought that I might also help fund my project with work as a CFI.
Here is what really happened... I spent far too much time with students
and far too little time building. The result is too many years into the
project and far too little income from the instruction. If you charge
for all time associated with an hours instruction, maybe, but that
approach will most likely put you out of the ballpark for most if not all
students. To answer your question, though, studying for the oral will
occupy most of your time for a while. The problem is that you must know
essentially all the material for the private, commercial, instrument
tickets and a lot more besides. I let my CFI lapse for a few years then
reinstated it, I'll never do that again!! (Heck, my wife won't let me!)
I guess what I'm saying is, do a real thorough analysis of income for
time spent before you leap.
Jeff
RV-4 2179 (Now building instead of instructing)
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Dan Ahearn wrote:
> A question for the group that is loosely related to RV's ...
>
> Aside from a few flights with my buddy in his travelair I've been out
> of the cockpit for almost 2 yrs now. Prior to that I was flying for a
> living as a military flight instructor. I've converted all my ratings
> with the exception of the instructor qual.
>
> As a means of funding my project (see this applys to the list, :)) I
> thought I'd pursue a CFI ticket and get in a little part time work on
> the side while staying current as the project progresses.
>
> Here's the question, I've got several years experience in all phases as
> an instructor current ratings include ATP ME, CSEL, does anyone have
> any idea how much of an investment I can expect to make in the ticket.
>
>
> Dan
> RV-6
> 23101
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: CFI process (chatter) |
DA> As a means of funding my project (see this applys to the list, :)) I
DA> thought I'd pursue a CFI ticket and get in a little part time work on
DA> the side while staying current as the project progresses.
DA> Here's the question, I've got several years experience in all phases
DA> as an instructor current ratings include ATP ME, CSEL, does anyone
DA> have any idea how much of an investment I can expect to make in the
DA> ticket.
DA> Dan
DA> RV-6
Dan:
The FARS do not specify a minimum amount of dual required prior to obtaining a
CFI ticket. Granted I did use this method many years ago, but I took a minimum
amount of dual instruction and spent a lot of time practicing the required
maneuvers on my own between dual periods. Today
you must take the flight
check in a high performance aircraft (C/S prop and retract gear). Thus is
where things can get a little pricey. I have prepared students for the CFI
check and in light of the need for the high performance aircraft requirement, I
would predict somewhere around 20 hours of dual for the average pilot. Since
you have a lot of valuable flight time, I'm sure you probably fall in this time
frame.
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
| Subject: | Autopilot questions... |
Hi,
I'm new to this list, having just recently decided to undertake an
RV-6A. I plan to start sometime this fall.
I am interested in making mine a fast cross-country IFR platform.
While at Oshkosh, the folks at Van's seemed insistent that the RV-6A
was too light and agile to be considered for anything other than light
punch-through type IFR, and even then, they recommend at least a wing
leveler be installed to help with the task.
I've used them a few times before in planes I've rented, but in
general, I don't know much about autopilots. So here's a littany of
questions that perhaps you kind folks might be willing to help me
with. I'm an EE with some background in control systems, so please get
technical if it helps to explain things...
1) Does an autopilot have its own accelerometers? Or does it get rate
information from a 'special' turn coordinator or something? If the
latter, how does the gauge deliver rate information to the control
unit? (Optical pulses, potentiometer?)
2) How does 'heading hold' work? Does the autopilot actually
integrate rates to figure your current heading, or do you need a
'special' heading indicator too?
3) Since the autopilot forms a feedback system when mated to an
aircraft, and since all aircraft are different, does one need to
adjust damping factors, etc, to get the autopilot to work properly
with a particular airplane? How is this done?
4) I heard somewhere that for an autopilot to be certified, it had to
react slowly enough so that the pilot would realize something was
wrong if the autopilot decided to, say, put the airplane in a steep
turn. Is this true? Does this limit its utility in an aircraft that
has good pitch sensitivity and a quick roll rate?
5) What's a yaw damper?
6) How do autopilots with altitude hold get their altitude
information? From the altimeter's blind encoder or an internal
pressure transducer?
7) I understand that autopilots that can track a VOR/GPS course
connect to the NAV receiver through an RS-232 interface using
the NMEA protocol. Where can I get more info on this protocol
(specific commands, etc.)?
8) Do the autopilot servos connect directly to the stick? Do they
require electric trim?
9) Can you describe specific autopilot installations in RV's and how
well they work?
Thanks for your tolerance of questions that have probably been
discussed here before. I appreciate any assistance you can afford.
-Brian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer
LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com
145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 UUCP: uunet!lanart!byablon
Needham, MA 02194 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206
LANart: Difference by Design
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit |
A couple of days ago (I think) Frank Justice made a very good case as to why you
should buy the RV in subkits as opposed to the whole thing at once. That's
exactly what I'd do except for one specific concern; what if, for example, I get
the first three kits, and then, worst case scenario, I can't obtain the
Finishing Kit, due to some problem with Van's factory (eg. going out of
business).
Nobody should interpret my comments as bad blood against Van's (far from it, so
far they've been GREAT), but in today's "lawsuit-crazy" society, something awful
COULD happen.
I know it sounds crazy, but has anyone ever proposed putting kit parts in escrow
or some such thing just in case the worst case scenario does happen?
Once you pick yourselves up off the floor laughing, I would appreciate anybody's
thoughts! :-)
Terry in Calgary
- Reviewing Preview Plans S/N 24414
- Attending September Builders' Clinic
- Reroofing the Hangar (er, Garage)
- Sourcing Rivet Gun
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
I used the Stephen Frey Jig for my fuselage. In and out in 60 days!
I would be careful using somebody else's jig...you only get one shot at
making the fuselage straight and you will be relying on somebody else's work
for a straight aircraft. Stephen's jig made it very easy to locate the
firewall, main spar carry through and all of the bulkhead locations. The jig
is made of steel it will not warp or change shape during transport or
construction. Three RV's in my area were built using Stephen's jigs and I
haven't heard one complaint. Contact him at 215-692-3553.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: [C] Re: Staged vs. Complete |
> the first three kits, and then, worst case scenario, I can't obtain the
> Finishing Kit, due to some problem with Van's factory (eg. going out of
> business).
It would probably take a comet wiping out the state of Oregon to do that,
but even then, I would assume that with the number of builders out there,
there would be more than one new business manufacturing finishing components.
Look at the number of companies that have formed around the products of
Van's right now as is. Also, to help calm any fears, you always have the
plans, and could "improvise."
> Nobody should interpret my comments as bad blood against Van's (far from it,
so
> far they've been GREAT), but in today's "lawsuit-crazy" society, something awful
> COULD happen.
Check out the setup of most modern kit-aircraft companies; it would take
a pretty desparate starving lawyer to do anything.
> Once you pick yourselves up off the floor laughing, I would appreciate anybody's
> thoughts! :-)
:-)
Jeremy
jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | Van's on WWW: Friday |
Van's web page is currently finished and awaiting the official checkmark
of approval. We will be using the account of Remi D. Khu who has
donated all of his alloted space for our purposes. Granted, the space is
100K, so it is about 100 times less than the planned 10 megs, but there
is some interesting material on there. The size of the page will grow as
more space can be acquired. One thign to keep in mind is that while the
page is offically endorsed by Van's, he is not paying a penny for the
space or time to develop it - he has somewhat rather dim views of cyberspace.
So until he sees and hears positive comments about "his" page, it's
unlikely that it will grow into anything spectacular.
Here is what you can expect to see when the doors open on Friday:
-general info about Van's, history, philosophy, etc.
-kit prices
-other various prices for accessories
-kit lead time charts
-Jon Johanson's journey
-the Nigerian Air Force venture
-photo of 32 RV-6A's lined up and all painted in same color and scheme
-rv-list information
-link to John Hovan's page
-the first published material on the RV-8 [but...not very long :-( ]
-a photo of the RV-8 (within one week)
-current count of completed aircraft
-and more!!!
Jeremy
jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello everyone ! I'm new to the list, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm
getting ready to begin an rv-4. I'm currently building an all metal
Hummelbird to get the necessary practice before I build a "real plane".
Anyone in the Bay Area who wants to talk "RV" contact me at: Bryan
Grossman
8530 Mahogany Pl.
Newark, Ca 94560
510-494-8855
At work (if you happen to fly in):
San Carlos Air Traffic Control Tower (SQL)
415-592-5294
By the way, I've bought about $2000.00 worth of tools so far (including a
pneumatic rivet squeezer-definately God's gift to an airplane builder) and
have bought from all the suppliers. Far and away, Avery is the best place to
order from. Absolutely first rate service, friendly people, great selection,
and they never argue. If you aren't happy, they'll make you happy. ATS sucks
!!!! Don't let them do you the "favor" of accepting your business.
Blue skies,
Bryan
(BRY VIDA @ aol.com)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Gregg L. Sloan" <gsloan(at)CapAccess.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit |
On 17 Aug 1995, Terence C. Gannon wrote:
> what if, for example, I get the first three kits, and then, worst case
> scenario, I can't obtain the
> Finishing Kit, due to some problem with Van's factory (eg. going out of
> business).
>
I'm not going to worry about that. I've bought everything except the
finishing kit. I don't expect to buy it until late next year. In the
unlikely event that you suggest, I think there are enough RVs out there that
the aftermarket companies would be there to supply all needs. RVs have
reached that critical mass point; there will always be RVs.
Besides, would it not be fun to learn the ancient art of scratch building :)
Gregg Sloan_____gsloan(at)capaccess.org_____Herndon, Virginia__USA
RV-6A #22425
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Staged Purchase.... |
Tell ya' what....If Van's ever goes out of business....I'm goin' into
business. Then when I get sued out of existence somebody else can pick up the
ball and run with it. There is enough demand for kits/parts that I wouldn't
mind making the small fortune that the good people at Van's have made.
Van is probably the most sucessful maker of Kit aircraft in a market that is
expanding every day. I think it's safe to say that RV's will be around for a
very long time!!!!!
Bottom line...don't worry...be happy:) Buy your kits in pieces.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JDelveau(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Kit Inventory |
Hi guys, unpacking my wing kit and I have a question-
There are two tracings of wing cross sections on the inside bottom of the
larger box. Are these something I am supposed to cut out and use? I wasn't
sure if they were used somewhere.
Thanks
Jim Delveau - Inventory of wing kit and finishing the trim tab and left
elevator.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Autopilot Question |
Hey Brian.....Chill Out!
Only kidding...you asked a lot of very good questions; questions that would
take along time to answer.
Seems to me that most people (including myself) who install autopilots
install the Navaid Devices unit (Turn Coordinator/Autopilot). Works great
and customer support is very good. The people at Navaid should be able to
answer all of you technical questions. Contact Doug Spears at (615) 752-1718
or (615) 267-3311.
By the way...Van's was right about RV's in IFR and as you'll find out in
time...VAN'S IS ALWAYS RIGHT! Pisses me off.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit |
I think that the comments sound like a lawyer! :^)
What if VAN's went out of business??
There are so many RV's being built that I would expect people like us
on the list to contact VAN's vendors to purchase parts for our RV's
directly. The plans have enough detail that any part could be built
without VAN. Any good A&P should be able to produce any part. It
would just take longer. What happened to the days when everything was
done by the builder. Look at the RV Lister Jim's LOM RV-3. It is
entirely scratch built! (And built very well at that!) It did take
him a little longer than us but he was not spoon feed parts like the
rest of us.
I do not believe that VAN's will be going out of business at any time
in the foreseeable future. But, the resources exist in the U.S. to
have any part that VAN sells produced else where. It will just cost a
lot more $ and time. By the time any RV builder has finished the
wings and started the fuselage, they should have developed enough self
confidence to finish the project regardless of the continuing parts
supply from VAN. The FAA allows "home-building" for "Recreation and
Education." When you start the fuselage, you will have received most
of your education!
Gary -6 s/n: 20480 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit
Date: 8/16/95 11:09 PM
A couple of days ago (I think) Frank Justice made a very good case as to why you
should buy the RV in subkits as opposed to the whole thing at once. That's
exactly what I'd do except for one specific concern; what if, for example, I get
the first three kits, and then, worst case scenario, I can't obtain the
Finishing Kit, due to some problem with Van's factory (eg. going out of
business).
Nobody should interpret my comments as bad blood against Van's (far from it, so
far they've been GREAT), but in today's "lawsuit-crazy" society, something awful
COULD happen.
I know it sounds crazy, but has anyone ever proposed putting kit parts in escrow
or some such thing just in case the worst case scenario does happen?
Once you pick yourselves up off the floor laughing, I would appreciate anybody's
thoughts! :-)
Terry in Calgary
- Reviewing Preview Plans S/N 24414
- Attending September Builders' Clinic
- Reroofing the Hangar (er, Garage)
- Sourcing Rivet Gun
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot questions... |
Having once owned a V35 Bonanza with a KFC200 autopilot, I think I can
give you answers to most of your questions:
> 1) Does an autopilot have its own accelerometers? Or does it get rate
> information from a 'special' turn coordinator or something? If the
> latter, how does the gauge deliver rate information to the control
> unit? (Optical pulses, potentiometer?)
Most autopilots get their roll information from a Turn COordinator with a
special pickup. This was the technique i=pioneered by the Britain
Autopilot: Modify the standard Turn-and-Bank indicator so that its gyro
is mounted at an angle, thereby allowing it to sense roll as well as
yaw.
>
> 2) How does 'heading hold' work? Does the autopilot actually
> integrate rates to figure your current heading, or do you need a
> 'special' heading indicator too?
Heading information comes from a special DG
> 3) Since the autopilot forms a feedback system when mated to an
> aircraft, and since all aircraft are different, does one need to
> adjust damping factors, etc, to get the autopilot to work properly
> with a particular airplane? How is this done?
Oh, boy, doe it ever. My experience is with the older analog
autopilots (KFC200, Cessna 300/400), so I can't sppek for the
digital ones (KFC150). Adjustments for sensitivity, null, and
damping are all via potentiometers. getting a newly installed
autopilot 'tuned' to the aircraft is usually a long tedious
process of adjust-fly-adjust-fly-adjust-fly-ad nauseum
> 4) I heard somewhere that for an autopilot to be certified, it had to
> react slowly enough so that the pilot would realize something was
> wrong if the autopilot decided to, say, put the airplane in a steep
> turn. Is this true? Does this limit its utility in an aircraft that
> has good pitch sensitivity and a quick roll rate?
Not only is that true, the autopilot must employ some sort of slip-clutch
so that the human can override it. In otherwords, the human must be
stronger than the autopilot. I remember that this requirement is not
universally true, but just under certain circumstances.
This does not mean that it limits the autopilot's utility, it just
limits its responsivness.
> 5) What's a yaw damper?
A yaw damper is a specially-tuned yaw-sensing servo coupled to an
actuator connected to the rudder. Its purpose is to dampen unwanted
yaw oscillations (fishtailing) Bonanza owners are one of the biggest
users of Yaw dampers :-)
> 6) How do autopilots with altitude hold get their altitude
> information? From the altimeter's blind encoder or an internal
> pressure transducer?
As I recall, the King unit is a sealed metal can with a coil wrapped
around it. Changes in altitute change the shape of the can enough to
cause an impedence change in the coil.
> 7) I understand that autopilots that can track a VOR/GPS course
> connect to the NAV receiver through an RS-232 interface using
> the NMEA protocol. Where can I get more info on this protocol
> (specific commands, etc.)?
I know of no autopilots that accept an RS-232 or NMEA. This is
an area where I am a little fuzzy, but I think autopilots use
one of the older ARINC standards. You need a converter box to
convert NMEA to the ARINC inputs
> 8) Do the autopilot servos connect directly to the stick? Do they
> require electric trim?
The autopilot servos connect to the control surfaces in some manner
that is installation or aircraft specific. Many times it is to
the control cable that runs between the stick (or yoke) and the
control surface.
Electric trim is not required (The Cessna 300 autopilots don't know
anything about electric trim.)
> 9) Can you describe specific autopilot installations in RV's and how
> well they work?
The most popular autopilot for RVs is the Navaid Devices Autopilot
(I'll be ordering one for my RV-6 in a couple of weeks). It
consists of two components: A control head that replaces the
Turn-and-Bank or Turn Coordinator, and a servo that connects to
either one of the aileron bellcranks or on of the control sticks.
BTW, as a matter of interest, just about the time I started flying
the KFC200-equipped Bonanza, the study was completed on the series
of Piper Malabu/Mohove accidents. The investigation really zeroed
in on the King KFC150 autopilot installed in those airplanes.
Because the KFC200 and the KFC150 are so similar, it really got my
attention. What I learned was that if you are going to use an
autopilot in IFR, you really need to understand the autopilot
completely, including its failure modes. If you mis-use a
sophisticated autopilot, it can kill you.
With the KFC200, for example, if you have ALtitude hold on, and
at the same time apply pressure to the controls (to try to
force a pitch or altitude change) without disengaging the autopilot
or commanding the *autopilot* to do it, the autopilot will start
to roll in some trim to maintain altitude. If you keep that up,
then disengage the autopilot, the result is an out-of-trim condition
and a sudden, unexpected pitch excursion that down low, on an
IFR approach, could kill you.
I really liked the KFC200, by the way. With it's flight director,
it made hand-flying an ILS a cakewalk.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit |
I've thoght of this also and have two reasons why I'm not
concerned:
1) The RV can always be plans built. Maybe a royal pain, but
then again there is probably more RV expertise available than
any other homebuilt.
2) I'd think if for some reason Van's Aircraft became unavailable,
there'd be enough market for another supplier to profitably provide
remaining parts to builders who haven't finished. There's a lot of
scenarios here, but I'm not interested in speculation.
I think a great point, which was mentioned only once, was a
financial investment will appreciate faster than Van's prices rise.
My two cents,
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Van's on WWW: Friday -Reply |
Do you know what the address will be?
>>> Jeremy 08/17/95
01:13am >>>
Van's web page is currently finished and
awaiting the official checkmark of
approval. We will be using the account of
Remi D. Khu who has donated all of his
alloted space for our purposes. Granted,
the space is 100K, so it is about 100
times less than the planned 10 megs, but
there is some interesting material on
there. The size of the page will grow as
more space can be acquired. One thign to
keep in mind is that while the page is
offically endorsed by Van's, he is not
paying a penny for the space or time to
develop it - he has somewhat rather dim
views of cyberspace.
So until he sees and hears positive
comments about "his" page, it's unlikely
that it will grow into anything
spectacular.
Here is what you can expect to see when the
doors open on Friday:
-general info about Van's, history,
philosophy, etc.
-kit prices
-other various prices for accessories
-kit lead time charts
-Jon Johanson's journey
-the Nigerian Air Force venture
-photo of 32 RV-6A's lined up and all
painted in same color and scheme
-rv-list information
-link to John Hovan's page
-the first published material on the RV-8
[but...not very long :-( ]
-a photo of the RV-8 (within one week)
-current count of completed aircraft
-and more!!!
Jeremy jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit |
I'm not worried about Van's folding because if they ever did I'd just
drive over there and grab everything I needed at fire sale prices!
:-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Kit Inventory |
>
> There are two tracings of wing cross sections on the inside bottom of the
> larger box. Are these something I am supposed to cut out and use? I wasn't
> sure if they were used somewhere.
Cut these out to make wing airfoil templates. Cut out the middle and
split the outer parts into two halves, to use to line up the ailerons
and flaps when fitting them on the wings. This is in the manual
somewhere.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com |
Hello guys!
I have a question for the veterans with flying aircraft.
Just how squirelly is the RV? Is it stable enough at cruise for hands off
flight?
Mike Graves
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>I used the Stephen Frey Jig for my fuselage. In and out in 60 days!
>I would be careful using somebody else's jig...you only get one shot at
>making the fuselage straight and you will be relying on somebody else's work
>for a straight aircraft.
This shouldn't be too much of a problem with a wood jig. The jig
itself can actually be quite out of line, all that is critical is to shim
the longerons and bulkheads into their correct location, and to create your
own centerline for reference. Van talks about this in one of the RVators.
You will actually only rely on YOUR work leveling the longerons and
placing the bulkheads.
I used 1/64, 1/32, 1/16 and 1/8 Birch plywood shims from the local
model airplane store for this purpose and attached them with model
"superglue". This Birch plywood is close to aircraft grade, and is hard
enough that it won't crush under clamping. What is much more critical is
getting a good level, and the investment in a digital SmartLevel is well
worthwhile, as well as some sort of metal straight edge at least 6 ft.
long.
A metal jig is nice and will save some time, but is definitely not
essential to build a RV6 fuselage.
Check out my "Misc. Fuse notes" posting of Mon, 12 Sep 1994 in the
archives.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... was second builder on a
wood jig, which is now starting
on it's 4th plane. It's #1 RV6
passed FAA final inspection
last week!!
> Stephen's jig made it very easy to locate the
>firewall, main spar carry through and all of the bulkhead locations. The jig
>is made of steel it will not warp or change shape during transport or
>construction. Three RV's in my area were built using Stephen's jigs and I
>haven't heard one complaint. Contact him at 215-692-3553.
>
>Gary Corde
>RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com
with smtp
(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Kit Inventory |
Yes! As per the manual, you can use them to establish the angle of incidence
once your at the point of attaching the wings to the fuselage.
-dan
On Thu, 17 Aug 1995 aol.com!JDelveau(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Hi guys, unpacking my wing kit and I have a question-
>
> There are two tracings of wing cross sections on the inside bottom of the
> larger box. Are these something I am supposed to cut out and use? I wasn't
> sure if they were used somewhere.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim Delveau - Inventory of wing kit and finishing the trim tab and left
> elevator.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Imaginary Airplane (Chatter) |
Bryan
Welcome to the net. I thought that the Hummelbird was a real
airplane. When I tell people I'm building an airplane and then show them
my RV-6, they sometimes state, I thought you building a real airplane.
Just because it is not the size of the space shuttle does not mean it is
not real. And if it is not real then it is imaginary... by definition.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Thu, 17 Aug 1995 aol.com!BRYVIDA(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Hello everyone ! I'm new to the list, so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm
> getting ready to begin an rv-4. I'm currently building an all metal
> Hummelbird to get the necessary practice before I build a "real plane".
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Staged Purchase vs. Complete Kit |
If Something awful happens to Van's, there is a very good possibility
that you can successfully complete your airplane anyway. I have heard of
people building RV's entirely from the plans. There are some parts that
you would need to have made in a machine shop (the gear legs, but Van's
buys those outside and you could too) or you would have to get welded
(the engine mount and -6A landing gear mounts) but Van also buys those
outside. In short, if Van's folds, you would just be in for a little
more work and out some more money; maybe about twice as many hours and
dollars as if you had the kits.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Imaginary Airplane (Chatter) |
...and if it is imaginary, rotate it 90 degrees and look at it again. :-)
- Alan
On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, Robert Busick wrote:
> Bryan
> Welcome to the net. I thought that the Hummelbird was a real
> airplane. When I tell people I'm building an airplane and then show them
> my RV-6, they sometimes state, I thought you building a real airplane.
> Just because it is not the size of the space shuttle does not mean it is
> not real. And if it is not real then it is imaginary... by definition.
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Preview plans received! #24179 |
| Study...study...look for tools...study.... |
|---------------------------------------------|
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
| Subject: | New to list/liability question |
I am new to the RV List. I am a CFII in PA. and an automotive teacher. I am
going to build an RV-4 starting this fall. I noticed that many of you have
built more than one RV. I was wondering how you can protect yourself from
liabilities when you sell your aircraft to someone?
Jim Cimino
RV-4 sn 4079
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Van's on WWW: Friday |
I'm new here. Waiting to be one of the first in line for a RV-8 kit.
Getting the shop area setup and buying tools, etc.
What is the web address for Van's web page ??
Any comments on Cleaveland vs Avery on the quality of tools?
Thanks,
Dick Slavens Napa, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: New to list/liability question |
Protection from liability when selling a homebuilt, like anything, is
never going to be absolute. But your risk is pretty low -- the lawyers
aren't that interested in going after the little guy (shallow pockets),
especially when the defense can point out that the purchaser certainly
knew what he was getting into, with that little placard on the panel
that says "PASSENGER WARNING, THIS AIRCRAFT IS AMATEUR BUILT" etc.
etc. There have been some cases where the injured parties or their
estates went after the builder, but they are very few and far between.
BUT there are definitely some measures you can and should take to help
minimize the risk. At our EAA chapter meeting recently the speaker was
an aviation attorney from the firm of Erickson and Eagan, and the topic
was just what you are asking about. He wrote a paper on the subject
which he will mail to anyone who is interested. I'll try to remember
to get the address to write to for that and post it in the next couple
of days.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> I am new to the RV List. I am a CFII in PA. and an automotive teacher. I am
> going to build an RV-4 starting this fall. I noticed that many of you have
> built more than one RV. I was wondering how you can protect yourself from
> liabilities when you sell your aircraft to someone?
>
> Jim Cimino
> RV-4 sn 4079
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
I may not be a good judge of aircraft stability for the low time pilot but I
have time on a few light aircraft, Cessna 120-1000 hours, J3 cub-140 hours,
T-18- 90 hours, Aerosport Scamp-40hours, Durand Mark V-80 hours and RV-6A-150
hours. Also I have time on various airline aircraft.
I have installed the Nav-aid wing leveler but have only turned it on to see if
it would work. So far I have just too much fun flying the aircraft to turn it
over to the wing leveler. At speeds below 150 mph the controls are light to the
touch. Above 150 mph the controls require more effort on a linear basis but are
still delightful. I have three axis electric trim and electric flaps. The three
axis trim means that I can trim the aircraft "hands off" for any speed and
weight configuration. So stability for hands off flying depends on your trim
setup. Fixed trim tabs means hands off at only one speed. Any other speed than
that will mean control pressure for level flight. Hope this will help answer the
question.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Dave Hyde wrote:
> Fine, fine, but they're avoiding the important issues -
> 1. Is it going to have a tailhook?
> 2. Have they resolved the weapon separation issues I posted earlier?
> 3. Will the centerline station be plumbed and wired for an air-refueling store?
Did you opt for flying boom or probe and drogue refueling method? (I'm
assuming flying boom, since the prop could cause havoc with a
drogue...unless, of course, you went for the ducted fan option.)
- Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence C. Gannon" <74267.3003(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Staged vs. Complete (chatter) |
I got so many replies to my question regarding staging the kit purchase versus
buying the whole thing at once, I thought I'd soak up just a little bandwidth by
thanking you all at once. You folks are a pretty good salesfolks! Thanx for
your good ideas and encouragement! It's off to the bank next! Cheers...
Terry in Calgary
- Review Preview Plans S/N 24414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
I now have 150 hours on my RV-6A with three axis electric trim. I also have a
Nav Aid wing leveler which I turned on to see if it worked and since that time
I
never use it. I am just having too much fun flying the airplane manually. The
three axis trim allows me to fly "hands off" at any air speed and weight
combination so the wing leveler is left unused. At air speeds below 150 mph the
controls are light. Above 150 mph the controls require a little more effort on
a
linear basis but are still delightful. I am not qualified to comment on the
stability aspects of test flight such as the stability in turns, etc. or the"
Phugoid oscillations" in a particular manuever, whatever they are. But I do know
what I like in an airplane response to control inputs and I must say that the RV
series aircraft are positively delightful. Hope that this answers some of the
questions.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | New to list/liability question (fwd) |
Contact the EAA. They have some example forms you can have the
buyer sign that will help limit your liability.
I think they also published an article on this in Sport Aviation
a yr or two back. Herman
> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:59:32 GMT
> Message-Id: <199508172259.WAA24935(at)ugly.Microserve.Net>
> X-Sender: jcimino(at)mail.microserve.net
> From: jcimino.microserve.com!jcimino(at)matronics.com (Jim Cimino)
> Subject: New to list/liability question
>
> I am new to the RV List. I am a CFII in PA. and an automotive teacher. I am
> going to build an RV-4 starting this fall. I noticed that many of you have
> built more than one RV. I was wondering how you can protect yourself from
> liabilities when you sell your aircraft to someone?
>
> Jim Cimino
> RV-4 sn 4079
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Autopilot questions... |
David
I know you have figured this out. Franks plans states that if
you have the prepunched skins you do not have to cut the bottom flange of
the main rib (#9) at
station 73.5 for the bellcrank access opening in the bottom skin. The
plans drawing 19a indicate that you are and even shows the w-426 reinforcing
ring that didn't come with the kit. The instructions do not mention this
at all. Someone last week said you still needed to cut the rib and put
some sort of reinforement in this area.
How did you do this? Any one else out there who has an idea, I
am interested.
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Hi Guys,
Last night was the EAA chapter 105 meeting at Twin Oaks (near Hillsboro
OR) and who should show up but Van in the RV-8! It didn't take long for
everyone to flock to the airplane. It is a very fine piece of aviation craftsmanship
and it is definitely larger than a -4. The real treat was later when he
took off to go home. Most RV's I've watched get off the ground at the first taxiway,
Well, he was well off the ground by that time and I believe he reached traffic
pattern altitude at the end of the runway (at least it looked that way).
I'll bet a lot of people were thinking about that!
Husband: Honey, I want to build an RV-8.
Wife: Are you crazy? You're already building a plane.
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Dave Hyde wrote:
> Fine, fine, but they're avoiding the important issues -
> 1. Is it going to have a tailhook?
> 2. Have they resolved the weapon separation issues I posted earlier?
> 3. Will the centerline station be plumbed and wired for an air-refueling
store?
I notice Dave did not ask for a catapult attach point. It doesn't appear to need
one. Of course it could be that Van is trying to avoid having to buy new tires
for it so he always lifts off in about 150 feet....
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: New to list/liability question (fwd) |
A lawyer at the RV Forum in Frederick said to me that you can't prevent
somene from sueing you only help your chances of winning the suit.
As most of us don't qualify as "deep pockets" the suits in these sorts of
cases are minimal - lawyers want to go after insurance protected assets so
they can get the jury awards in 7 or 8 figures...
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (703) 478-9603
DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
FORE Systems TEL: (301) 564-4404
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 FAX: (301) 564-4408
Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com
________________________________________________________________________________
from odb.rhein-main.de (193.141.47.4) with smtp
| From: | delder(at)ndsbbs.rhein-main.de (Dan Elder) |
Help.
One of my users obviously subscribed to a newslist improperly, and now the
newsgroup is spamming my email database.
Could you please check your subscriber database, and remove the user with the
systemname of @ndsbbs.rhein-main.de.
Thank You
Dan Elder
-SysOp
delder(at)ndsbbs.rhein-main.de
National Data Service =| 49-6783-1785 |= | FIDOnet @2:2455/304.0 |
Baumholder, Germany | -[Home of EuroList]- American BBSs in Europe |
(at)ndsbbs.rhein-main.de | For Info: bbslist(at)ndsbbs.rhein-main.de |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Frank Justice wrote:
>
> I notice Dave did not ask for a catapult attach point. It doesn't appear to need
> one. Of course it could be that Van is trying to avoid having to buy new tires
> for it so he always lifts off in about 150 feet....
>
> FKJ
>
If Van keeps this up, the traditional runway could become obsolete! There could
come a day when you just PLOP into your destination, no airport required.
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: rv-8 (chatter) |
On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Frank K Justice wrote:
>
> I notice Dave did not ask for a catapult attach point. It doesn't appear to need
> one. Of course it could be that Van is trying to avoid having to buy new tires
> for it so he always lifts off in about 150 feet....
That would be the leading edge slot and flaperon option (currently under
development - hush!)
Beside, point a flattop into the wind, get it moving, you've
automatically got 20% or more of your flying speed in the can!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: airplane treats |
Keep it up, guys, and I might go back into my "consideration" phase:
-6 or -8?
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder ...I think ... |
| Preview plans received! #24179 |
| Study...study...look for tools...study.... |
|---------------------------------------------|
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Michael Graves wrote:
> Hi Guys,
> Last night was the EAA chapter 105 meeting at Twin Oaks (near Hillsboro
OR) and who should show up but Van in the RV-8! It didn't take long for
> everyone to flock to the airplane. It is a very fine piece of aviation craftsmanship
and it is definitely larger than a -4. The real treat was later when he
> took off to go home. Most RV's I've watched get off the ground at the first taxiway,
Well, he was well off the ground by that time and I believe he reached
traffic pattern altitude at the end of the runway (at least it looked that way).
> I'll bet a lot of people were thinking about that!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: airplane treats |
>
> Husband: Honey, I want to build an RV-8.
>
> Wife: Are you crazy? You're already building a plane.
Husband: What's your point?
:) Richard Bibb - RV-4 N144KT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: airplane treats |
Husband: Honey, I want to build an RV-8.
Wife:
Wife?
What wife?
Result: Implicit approval.
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder ... I think ... |
| Preview plans received! #24179 |
| Study...study...look for tools...study.... |
|---------------------------------------------|
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curtis Smith <Curtis_Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com> |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: Cost of Ownership |
Text item:
8/15/95 claris.com!mauser(at)matronics.com wrote:
>There's a thread going on one of the rec.aviation groups about the cost of
>owning a certified aircraft, and one person was delineating the thousands of
>dollars of fixed costs he pays, even if he didn't fly at all that year. The
>advice being that just because you can afford to buy it doesn't mean you can
>afford to keep it.
>
>So, what does it cost to own your homebuilt after you've finished building it?
>(Not counting operating costs).
Normally I consider myslef to be a spectator on this forum but Mike (Graves)
insists that I should share my expertise(?) in this area. Currently I am a
renter and have been investigating the advantages of renting, buying, building
and partnerships compared to each other from a finicial point of view. To this
end I have put together a rather sophisticated Excel spread sheet which
calculates in everything from annuals to hangar fees. If anyone is interested I
can Email the file as and attachemnt. Additionally in this spreadsheet I have
even figured the cost per hour of use for the engine (assumming replacement
after 2000 hours).
If I have calculated everything right (I not an accountant - my wife is though).
There is no significant difference between owning a 172 and an RV. The only real
differences seems to be annuals and insurance costs. For RV the annuals are
about but the insurance is doubled so consider it a wash.
The interesting point is, there appears to be a cross over point at around 3
hours of use per month where ownership starts to become cheaper than renting.
Disclaimer: My figures are calculated for my region (hangar fees etc.) and based
on ball park estimates - no real empirical data. Your figures may vary. Again
you're welcome to my spreadsheet - it's put together to allow entry of variable
data at the top (in labled boxes) and then updates the graphs. This way it
allows you to throw different scenarios at it
Curt Smith (Curtis Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com). :-)
Text item: External Message Header
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and may be ignored unless there are problems.
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Subject: Cost of Ownership
From: Richard Chandler <Claris.COM!mauser(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 16:14:14 -0800
-0700
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
Please don't think that I'm ignorant. But since I am new, what is the rv-8.
What are
the improvements, and what is the seating arrangement? Projected kit price?
Engines
used? Performance?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SBlomqui(at)aol.com |
Please unsubscribe from rv-list. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
Can someone please describe the proposed RV-8 to me in greater detail. Is it
a larger -4 or a refined -6 ? I haven't ordered my -4 yet and might want to
hold off a bit.
Thanks !!!!
Blue Skies,
Bryan
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bay Area Welder needed |
Can anyone in the Bay Area help me with some welding of 4130 tubing and plate
for a landing gear piece I'm fabricating. I live near Fremont and work at San
Carlos Airport. Any help or referrals of someone qualified to do such
critical welding is really appreciated !!!!!!
Blue Skies,
Bryan
BRY VIDA @ AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roli Kriening <Roli_Kriening(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Jim Cimino wrote:
> Please don't think that I'm ignorant. But since I am new, what is the rv-8.
> What are
> the improvements, and what is the seating arrangement? Projected kit price?
> Engines
> used? Performance?
>
>
Me too!!! What is the RV 8?? Someone told me it was a 4 on
steriods....that didn't help much.
Roli
Winnipeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roli Kriening <Roli_Kriening(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | RVs - First Time Builder - Low Time Pilot |
I am a low time pilot and a first time builder. The only thing I have
flown is Cherokee 140s (90hrs). I love the RVs but am a little concerned
that the building might be a little over my head. Most of the messages I
read on this SIG seem to get very technical. Jigs, autopilots, etc. Are
most builders proud perfectionists or is the RV building process really that
involved.
I will be starting a kit in the next year - but which one??? Has anyone
out there used a wooden jig - does it work???
Roli
Winnipeg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | Van's on WWW: Finally!!! |
Despite several last minute difficulties, Van's preliminary attempt at a
home page has been completed. Although there are a couple of sections
that are not quite ready, enough is to warrant opening it up. When
viewing the home page, keep in mind the following:
-we are using 100K of DONATED space from Remi Khu
-all development was done on voluntary time
!!!!!IMPORTANT!!!!!
There is a section called "We Want Your Feedback" - this is the most
important part of the site. It is important because it is the only way
to know if anyone is viewing the pages. If you visit the site, then
PLEASE DO THE SIMPLE REQUEST - each response will better the site in the
long run.
Sorry for the delay today, Win95 was in a bad mood. :)
And here it is:
http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/
Have fun!
Jeremy
jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
Jim, I spent too much time on instruments for it to be fun anymore. Seeing the
ground, occasionally, suites me just fine. Also day VFR is really where the fun
is for me. Guess that old age is catching up to me. The spring trim assist may
help but the real trim is the electric one. On a long cross country where you
are not flying formation the wing leveler could be a real help in the tracking
mode. So far I have been flying with a group so I never get to use the wing
leveler.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KWilli8027(at)aol.com |
dear sir: please remove me from your mailing list. thanks, kwilli8027(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
For those asking questions about the RV-8, I'll give you what I have. Maybe
others can fill in with more details.
The RV-8 is a tandem, 2 seater.
The wing looks to be the same shape and area as a RV-4. Larger fuel tank and
a re-designed main spar assembly (may come as a one piece unit). The wing
will be stronger than existing RV wings (higher gross weights and speeds).
Same airfoil type as existing RVs. RV-4 type flaps and ailerons.
The fuselage is longer and wider than a RV-4, sliding canopy, roll bar in
front of pilot where the canopy joins the windshield. The two baggage areas
are located: a) between the upper instrument panel and the engine firewall.
Access hatch on upper left side, maybe 12" wide and extends the full width
of the fuselage, about 14" high, the bottom is flat. b) large compartment
just aft of the passenger seat, about 2' deep, full width, 30" high, with
access from a large hatch in the cockpit. The rudder pedals are adjustable
forward & aft (like a sailplane), about a 8-10" range. Control stick in the
middle, with engine controls on the left sidewall. Flat spring gear (Cessna
type, but narrow), fixed gear. Engine cowl looks like RV-6, no cowl flaps.
Installed engine was a Lyc. IO-360, 200 Hp., with constant speed prop.
Tail is larger, RV-6 size, with thicker metal (.020).
Van didn't seem to have much in the way of hard flight data numbers at
Oshkosh, cruise is about 210 MPH.
I liked it alot, just like a little fighter with cross-country baggage
capability.
Van said tail kits will be available in 6 Mo.s. I'll be waiting in line for
mine.
Dick Slavens Napa, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RVs - First Time Builder - Low Time Pilot |
Roli, Building the RV is not hard. What it DOES take is persistance, and
lots of it. Yes, the wooden jig works just fine and is simple. Don't be
scared by adds for steel jigs. While they are nice, they are overkill......
Greg Rainwater N818GR
________________________________________________________________________________
I have seen some comments regarding higher insurance rates for RV's than a
C-172. I get mail weekly, it seems, from the two "Big" aircraft insurance
companies wanting to send me a quote. I did this one time and found that
they were Twice as high as my current costs!. If you want a bargan on RV
insurance, join the IAC (International Aerobatic Club). It is affiliated
with the EAA and has a very good insurance program that even I can afford,
for my RV-4, through a company called the Forest Agency. It is even cheaper
than I was paying for my Cessna 150!
Greg Rainwater N818GR
________________________________________________________________________________
Believe it or not, I'm getting to point where I am soon to need an inspection
of my MK III prior to covering. Yes, I know that this is the RV-List, but
what better place to ask B-) Besides, I have a "6" in the jig just waiting
for me to finish this "other" project.
What is the scoop on inspections by EAA Technical Councilor's as provided for
in the reg's.
Is only one inspection required?
How is the inspection signed off, and is it retained in the builders log, or
do I need to by an Airframe Logbook at this time?
Any other information/tips appreciated.
Finally, does anyone know of any councilors in the Nashua, NH area and how to
contact them.
Thanks Noel
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Magneto question |
I'm trying to measure RPM by using a magnetic sensor inside a Slick mag. The
sensor switches on and of depending on where the rotating magnet is.
I know that if I measure one complete cycle ie high-low-high, I have exactly
one rev. The question is, is the high to low transition exactly one half rev.
This would help me a great deal as I wouldn't have to wait for a full rev, I
just don't know if the pulse width is exactly half the period.
Does anyone know?
Ken
RV6A
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
> I will be starting a kit in the next year - but which one??? Has anyone
> out there used a wooden jig - does it work???
>
I would estimate that 95% or more of the 1,000 flying RV's were built
on wooden Fuselage Jigs. Thats what the manual calls for. The metal
would be nice if you have access to it or can affor it but there is
no problem with the wooden jig. There are probably some floating around
in your area if there are any RV's being built. Most folks don't
want the jig after the fuselage is done so it goes to the next builder.
The one I used had been used twice before.
Herman.
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Engines for RV 6A |
>I need some advice on engines. I am looking for a 360 with a hollow crank.
I have been offered an IO 360 C1E6, which is 200 hp.
I understand there are some problems in fitting it under the cowl, and
possibly other problems.
Does anyone have experience in fitting this motor onto an RV 6A ?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roli Kriening <Roli_Kriening(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | RV6A - Almost Convinced |
Thanks for all your words of encouragement. I am almost convinced that
the RV is the plane for me. The only thing holding me back now is the
price of the engine. Does anyone know what the cost of a half time 0-360
is? What is the cost of the OEM engines from VAN's?
How much of the RV6A can be built by one person? I understand that the
wings require two persons to skin. Where can one buy the basic tools, ie.
bucking bars, etc.? I there a starters kit that one can buy that contains
most of the necessary tools?
Roli
"many more questions to come.....thanks"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
Does anyone have any feedback on the metal jigs available for the RV-6a?
I saw one at OSH that looked pretty nice. The cost was about $1300.00
I also have literature from Stephen Frey, with no prices, I do not know if that
is
the same one I saw.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: micro monitor engine instrument system |
The Rocky Mountain micro monitor is everything the manufacturer says it is.
Call them and they can answer any question you may have. The fuel flow
system is accurate to 1/10 of a gallon on a five hour flight. You need a
switch to change cylinder head temp location, etc but a good gang rotary
switch will switch all of the desired functions similtaneously. The designer
is a good person to work with and is very helpful.
Jim Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AndersonRE(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Request for Information |
I have just read about your group in an RVator and am interested in finding
out more about how it functions and what the objectives are. If anyone can
fill me in I would appreciate it. I am a long time RV-3 builder in the
Chillicothe, Ohio area. Thanks.
Bob Anderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Primer Compatibility |
Does anyone know if there is a compatibility problem with DuPont Veriprime or
Sherwin Williams Industrial Wash Primer and Zinc Chromate. I'm thinking of
using Dupont or Sherwin Williams on my wing spar and interior wing surfaces
and would like to use Zinc Chromate for small touch up work in those areas.
Also, I have a set of Orndorfs tail kit videos that were extremely helpful
while building the tail I would be happy to make someone a good deal on.
Please E-mail me direct.
CRazer2(at)aol.com
Chet Razer in Sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Primer Compatibility (fwd) |
You should not have a problem touching up the interior with Zinc Chromate.
I would not do it on the exterior however where you may put on an epoxy/
polyurathane finish coat.
If you use variprime, it would be easy to do the touch up with it. I think
it is good for about two weeks if you keep it in a closed container.
If you refrigerate it it would last longer. It would also look better
if anyone looks inside to inspect things.
Herman
>
> Does anyone know if there is a compatibility problem with DuPont Veriprime or
> Sherwin Williams Industrial Wash Primer and Zinc Chromate. I'm thinking of
> using Dupont or Sherwin Williams on my wing spar and interior wing surfaces
> and would like to use Zinc Chromate for small touch up work in those areas.
> Also, I have a set of Orndorfs tail kit videos that were extremely helpful
> while building the tail I would be happy to make someone a good deal on.
> Please E-mail me direct.
>
> CRazer2(at)aol.com
>
> Chet Razer in Sparta, IL
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DougPage(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Safe, low cost painting. |
I am building the wings on my 6A and learning to fly in a Cessna, but I took
time off to drive my van to Oshkosh. The richest moments for me involved
construction tips from other builders. The following idea for safe painting
comes from Robert Wall of Parker AZ. You should not paint without a hood
supplied with a fresh air pump from outside the painting area. These cost
several hundred dollars. So...make your own. Ecology types are now urging
the use of cloth grocery bags such as those sold by Safeway. Get one and cut
a visor hole to see out of and glue in a soft flexible plastic visor. Hook
up air supply hoses to the outlet side of an old tank type vacuum cleaner and
run it up to the back of your neck where it is fastened to the back of the
hood. If it is hot, run the supply line through a cardboard box line with
plastic and filled with crushed ice. Sew in weights or old bolts to the
bottom of the hood so that it tends to rest on your chest and back. I did
not have an old tank type vacuum cleaner, so I am making temporary
modifications to my Sears Shop Vac. I cleaned it thoroughly and washed the
inside. I bought a new filter. I fill the Shop Vac tank bottom with crushed
ice. The outlet is on the top, and I connect 3 inch plastic drain pipe to
the outlet with a piece of old inner tube and duct tape. My plastic drain
pipe runs 25 feet to my painting area where it is reduced down to vacuum
cleaner hose size with more inner tube and duct tape. I hate painting, but I
hope this will enable me to stay alive and healthy. Ralph Koger of Boone IA
was there with his perfect 6A, which was his 4th or 5th one! He said
painting should only be done with a Croix rig...beg, buy, borrow, or persuade
your EAA chapter to invest in one for group use. Another builder said
WalMart's $20 tractor batteries are perfect for RV use! Back to more
building and less talking!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-6/6A Project For Sale |
After much thought, I've decided that building a plane just isn't for me. I
will be selling the following:
RV-6/6A Empenage- 100% complete
RV-6/6A Wings- both currently in jig, about 50% complete. All skeletons
clecoed together, top skins drilled and clecoed, leading edge
sections riveted and clecoed to the spar, tank skeletons together
and ready to drill skins. Rigid enough to move as is, or could
easily be disassembled for transport.
All tools- All Avery
Dupont Veri-Prime has been used on every part (except tanks of course). I
rate the construction as very good. I have all receipts, builders log and
complete photos of the entire project. Included will be all the newsletters
and "The 14 Years of RVator" book. I also have the empenage and wing
construction videos.
The price will be "materials only" for the plane (about $5,000). I'll sell
the tools also if the buyer wants them. Let me know if anyone is
interested. I should also have an ad in Trade-A-Plane in a couple of weeks.
Russell Duffy (RV-6/6A SN- 22407)
rad(at)gulf.net
Navarre, FL
904-939-0776 (home/unlisted)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | rv-4 manual question |
My RV4 manual goes back a few years, hopefully someone has corrected this
in a later edition... In the section on flaps, page 7-31, last sentence
reads "The spar can then be clecoed and riveted to the skins, with the
Then the first line on the other side of the page, page 7-32, reads "place
and drilled using the existing holes as guides. " Now I think I can
figure what happens in between, but who wants to take a chance! Can
anyone fill me in? Jeff Hall RV4 21 a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU (Leo Davies) |
| Subject: | activity on the list |
Has the list died or do I have a local problem - no mail on the list for
three days?
Sorry to mail the list but I have mislaid Matt Dralle's Email address.
Leo Davies
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: wooden jigs |
Text item:
The "wood" jig I built my fuselage on is going to the 5th builder. All
who have used it rave about how good it is. The guy who built it used
all kiln dried lumber, glued, screwed it together. There is nothing
wrong with a wood jig. Save your money for other things. Metal is not
required.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: wooden jigs
Date: 8/19/95 7:23 PM
> I will be starting a kit in the next year - but which one??? Has anyone
> out there used a wooden jig - does it work???
>
I would estimate that 95% or more of the 1,000 flying RV's were built
on wooden Fuselage Jigs. Thats what the manual calls for. The metal
would be nice if you have access to it or can affor it but there is
no problem with the wooden jig. There are probably some floating around
in your area if there are any RV's being built. Most folks don't
want the jig after the fuselage is done so it goes to the next builder.
The one I used had been used twice before.
Herman.
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 19:23:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: wooden jigs
netmail1.austin.ibm.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id TAA153977 for | Date: | Aug 21, 1995 |
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Anyone know what the setting on the idle mixture screw of a Marvel carb
should be set at initially?? 1 , 1.5 turns?
Anyone know where to get an overhaul kit for Narvel carb cheap? Overhaul
manual?
RB
Trying to get engine to run smoothly....
RV-4 N144KT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel tank pressure testing |
This weekend I got brave and tested my one
of my two completed tanks. These were
Pro-sealed only - no slosh.
I used the Don Meehan, Monte King method as
previouly described on this list.
A couple of added tips:
Largest difficulty, as has been documented
on this list before, was getting a seal on
the fuel cap. After three failed attempts,
plastic baggie, vasoline, duct tape, I woke
up Sunday morning to the sound of my pool
pump. Remembered the device that had been
used to pressure test the pump lines.
At Home Depot I found a device called a
test ball. They have a 2" one that fits in
the fuel opening flange just fine. It is a
cylindrical shaped rubber device with a
schreder valve on it. You stick it in a
pipe or the flange and pump it up carefully
to a max of 40 psi. I used less than this
because it is longer than the flange and I
feared over inflating it and cutting it on
the back side of the flange.
However once in place I pumped 1-3 psi into
the tank and viola! a perfect seal. The
tank now has 18 hours and counting with the
clear tubing manometer level holding rock
solid.
I cut tempory gaskets out of the gray fiber
stuff like they use for fuel pumps. Used
fuel lube as a temporary sealent.
Jim
Never thought some colored water in a tube
could give such a thrill!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
This weekend I looked at an engine a local mechanic has laying
around. It is an O-320-B(1a?). The B model is the conical mount 160hp
version. I read through the logs and here is a synopsis:
- Placed into service in an Apache in 1057
- Used in commercial service for several years
- Factory rebuild at 1007 hrs. Zero timed. August 1960.
- Annual inspections for several years - nothing remarkable.
- Top cylinder #1 in February 67.
- Top cylinder #3 in April 68, 754 hrs. since rebuild.
- Topped all cylinders in August 68. Chrome. Upgraded exhaust
valves to 1/2", 1237hrs since rebuild.
- Last reference in January, 1987.
Then the engine was removed, and lubed. Total time since the
rebuild is 2325, 1088 since top. All the accesories have been removed
from the engine, but are available. I looked inside the engine through
the openings in the accesory housing and I could see no sign of rust.
Nor was their any sign of it on the exterior.
I am wondering if this engine is a good candidate for a rebuild
or if perhaps it is too old. The mechanic said that he would be willing
to help me overhaul it(he is a friend.) The prop flange had lightening
holes in it. Does this weaken it.
I would appreciate comments from those of you who know a lot
about the engines. I am planning on using a constant speed prop,
some kind of fuel injection and, perhaps, electronic ignition with
a magneto backup.
Thanks
Cheryl Sanchez
csanchez(at)baynetworks.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Idle mixture (fwd) |
You can get the carb parts from Superior in Dallas.
Also, Chief also carries most of the parts.
Check Trade-A-Plane for ads and phone numbers if you don't have them.
Make sure you have no 'air leaks' around the intake tube rubbers.
These are on the intake tubes that go to each cyl. from the
manifold out of the oil sump. These are the 2inch diam or so
black rubber hoses with the two worm screw clamps.
These can get old and brittle and are easy to change.
I have also seen them be slipped up or have a clamp off
and leaking air. This air leak will mess up the mixture to
that cyl. If these are old, order them form Superior also.
I saw Tony Bingalez (?sp) try to get a O320 running on his
RV6 one time and it had one rupper not slid down properly.
The engine jumped and shook and sounded awful. A lot of folks
were trying to figure out what was wrong and I finally saw
the rubber intake hose had not been reattached after he had
the oil sump off.
In the carb, there are some seals (o rings) that can dry out
if it has been setting around. I know a local Varie EZ pilot
had such a problem and it gave him fits until he found that
part in the carb and replaced it. That may be a slighty
different carb however.
Herman
>
> Anyone know what the setting on the idle mixture screw of a Marvel carb
> should be set at initially?? 1 , 1.5 turns?
>
> Anyone know where to get an overhaul kit for Narvel carb cheap? Overhaul
> manual?
>
> RB
>
> Trying to get engine to run smoothly....
> RV-4 N144KT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Idle mixture |
>
> Anyone know what the setting on the idle mixture screw of a Marvel carb
> should be set at initially?? 1 , 1.5 turns?
>
> Anyone know where to get an overhaul kit for Narvel carb cheap? Overhaul
^^^^^^
> manual?
You're jokeing....Right?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curtis Smith <Curtis_Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com> |
I have resolved that there are some things I should get out of the way
before I myself take the plunge into another project (i.e. building an
RV). The first on the list is to get my tail dragger endorsement. This
I've started and by now I am convinced whatever I build, it will have
to be tail wheel aircraft.
My dilema. I have just 1 - 2 hours to go with with my instructor
before my right off. However, I just found out last week that the J3
Cub I have been renting (at Tein Oaks - 7S3) was ground looped and
wrecked. I am so close now to my endorsement yet I don't know where
else in the Hillsboro - Twin Oaks (Oregon) area to look for a tail
dragger to rent.
Could anyone in my area help? I have renters insurance with up to $25k
hull coverage.
Curt Smith (Curtis_Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Cheryl Sanchez wrote>
>
> This weekend I looked at an engine a local mechanic has laying
> around. It is an O-320-B(1a?). The B model is the conical mount 160hp
> version. I read through the logs and here is a synopsis:
>
> - Placed into service in an Apache in 1057
^^^^
Cheryl,
You have a 938 year old engine, my friend! Perhaps you should find a
younger model 8-))
Mike Graves
BTW, my offer on the house w/shop fell through. Owners wanted $20,000 down,
11% interest, and 5 year balloon. Thanks but no thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Mon Aug 21 13:18:31 0700 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: elevator horns
Does anyone have a way of priming the inside of the elevator control
horn tubes (WD-405)?
I cleaned the steel with naval jelly, then primed. I'm not sure that
I was able to get inside the tubes adequately.
thanks,
russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | Lycoming 0360-E1A6D on a RV6 |
An engine-man told me that the Lycoming 0360-E1A6D (apparenty used
on the Seminole) is widely availble and can be bought at prices lower
than more popular 0360 models. It is set up for CS props, fits on a
dynafocal mount and has the parallel valves. He claims many are flying
on RVs. Any body out there have any knowledge of this?
Greg Tipsword
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
On Mon, 21 Aug 1995 RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov wrote:
> Does anyone have a way of priming the inside of the elevator control
> horn tubes (WD-405)?
>
> I cleaned the steel with naval jelly, then primed. I'm not sure that
> I was able to get inside the tubes adequately.
I poured a couple of ounces of metal-prep into the tube, then capped it with
my thumb and shook it like a martini. (come to think of it - I've never
shaken a martini) I repeated this a few times to clean the metal, then
let it dry. Next, I mixed up some primer (without thinning it) and poured
it into the tube, and shook it up. I think this did the job reasonably well.
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Engine Question (fwd) |
Several comments:
1) It was upgraded to the 1/2inch valves, which is good.
2) The total time (2325) since rebuild (I guess you mean the major OH
is high. You would want to do a rebuild on it.
3) For sure check the oil pump. This may well have either the
old woodruf key oil pump or the sintered iron oil pump, both
of which are bad news above 2,000 hours. This can be checked
by removing the oil sump and the rear accessory case.
4) The cylinders may be OK if it was a good chrome job.
However, they now put 'choke' into the bore which means the
top of the bore should be smaller, about .007 inch I think.
This makes the bore straight when the cyl is at operation temp.
I don't know when they started putting in choke in the bore.
If the cyl is OK, I would probably replace the pistons, wrist pins,
and rings as they are all cheap. This engine probably has the
old style wrist pins with Aluminum caps that float. They often
create metal in the oil. The newer pins have pressed in plugs.
This model may also have the old style pistons which had full
wedge rings (the lands are V shaped).
5) Check the cam lobes and lifters. Many engines have problems with
a skuffed lobe and this eats into the lifters. If you pull the
cylinders you can get a pretty good look at the cam.
If you split the case, then you can send it out to be inspected
and yellow taged.
5) If you do the full OH, this will allow you to check the crank
and bearings. The center main at the case often has 'fretting'
due to movement of the case. They now 'dowl' these center bolt
on the cases.
For and experimental AC, you can do what ever you want on the
engine. However, for a true Major OH, Lyc has a list of parts
that must be replaced. This includes things like the Exh valves,
rod bolts, pistons, all bearings, rings, etc.
6) If you go through the engine there are a number of Service Bul.
and AD's you can comply with. One is on the crank gear.
There are several on the oil pump I noted above.
7) I think it would be an OK engine. I would just do a complete
OH on it and then you know what you have.
Most of the O320's have the lightning holes in the crank flange.
Not a big deal unless you plan to do a lot of aerobatics.
I did a full major on an old O320 A2B and spent about $6,000
on the OH and that included upgrade to 1/2in valves, all new
valves, guides, springs, Chrome Cy, pistons, pins, rings,
bearings, lap and OH cases, Grind crank .010 under on mains
and balance, grind cam and lifters, new slick mags, new rod bolts,
new oil pump and one piece housing, etc.
The only issue is you will have a conical mount engine.
The dynafocal mount version is suppose to be smoother as it dampens
the vibrations more.
Also, I think you could put new Superior cylinders on it if
the ones you have have worn bores or guides, etc.
I would prefer to do that for these older engines rathar than
pump a bunch of $$ in to overhauling the old cyl.
Herman
> From root Mon Aug 21 14:45:04 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 14:36:17 EDT
> From: BayNetworks.com!csanchez(at)matronics.com (Cheryl Sanchez)
> Message-Id: <9508211836.AA16867(at)BayNetworks.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Engine Question
>
>
>
> This weekend I looked at an engine a local mechanic has laying
> around. It is an O-320-B(1a?). The B model is the conical mount 160hp
> version. I read through the logs and here is a synopsis:
>
> - Placed into service in an Apache in 1057
> - Used in commercial service for several years
> - Factory rebuild at 1007 hrs. Zero timed. August 1960.
> - Annual inspections for several years - nothing remarkable.
> - Top cylinder #1 in February 67.
> - Top cylinder #3 in April 68, 754 hrs. since rebuild.
> - Topped all cylinders in August 68. Chrome. Upgraded exhaust
> valves to 1/2", 1237hrs since rebuild.
> - Last reference in January, 1987.
>
> Then the engine was removed, and lubed. Total time since the
> rebuild is 2325, 1088 since top. All the accesories have been removed
> from the engine, but are available. I looked inside the engine through
> the openings in the accesory housing and I could see no sign of rust.
> Nor was their any sign of it on the exterior.
>
> I am wondering if this engine is a good candidate for a rebuild
> or if perhaps it is too old. The mechanic said that he would be willing
> to help me overhaul it(he is a friend.) The prop flange had lightening
> holes in it. Does this weaken it.
>
> I would appreciate comments from those of you who know a lot
> about the engines. I am planning on using a constant speed prop,
> some kind of fuel injection and, perhaps, electronic ignition with
> a magneto backup.
>
> Thanks
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
> csanchez(at)baynetworks.com
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Tail draggers. |
Curtis
Go see Mike Seager at Vernonia, he gives tailwheel instruction in
the RV-6, $65 an hour. I received my tail wheel sign off from him and
got some great instruction in the RV-6 the plane I'm building. You
should be able to contact him by phone book. If not ask and I'll send
you his number. Don't have it with me now.
Good Luck
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Curtis Smith wrote:
> I have resolved that there are some things I should get out of the way
> before I myself take the plunge into another project (i.e. building an
> RV). The first on the list is to get my tail dragger endorsement. This
> I've started and by now I am convinced whatever I build, it will have
> to be tail wheel aircraft.
>
> My dilema. I have just 1 - 2 hours to go with with my instructor
> before my right off. However, I just found out last week that the J3
> Cub I have been renting (at Tein Oaks - 7S3) was ground looped and
> wrecked. I am so close now to my endorsement yet I don't know where
> else in the Hillsboro - Twin Oaks (Oregon) area to look for a tail
> dragger to rent.
>
> Could anyone in my area help? I have renters insurance with up to $25k
> hull coverage.
>
> Curt Smith (Curtis_Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com).
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Lycoming 0360-E1A6D on a RV6 (fwd) |
From my posting a few weeks back on what the engine codes mean,
the 'D' on the end indicates a Dual Mag. (both mags driven off of
the same gear)
The 6 means it has sixth order counter weights.
Are you sure this is a O360 and not a IO360?
I did not think the 180 HP had the counterweights on the crank
but I could be wrong as there are to many variations to keep up with.
D A 'D' on the end (4th or 5th letter of suffex)
indicates the Bendix 'Dual mag' in single housing.
6 On 4 cyl, a 6 indicates one sixth order and one eighth order
counterweights on crank. Only on 200HP as far as I know,
for example IO-360-A1B6D.
> From root Mon Aug 21 17:18:45 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Message-Id: <9508212111.AA05322(at)disney.dp.uop-net.com>
> From: uop.com!GETIPSWO(at)matronics.com (GETIPSWO)
> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 19 95:98
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Lycoming 0360-E1A6D on a RV6
>
> An engine-man told me that the Lycoming 0360-E1A6D (apparenty used
> on the Seminole) is widely availble and can be bought at prices lower
> than more popular 0360 models. It is set up for CS props, fits on a
> dynafocal mount and has the parallel valves. He claims many are flying
> on RVs. Any body out there have any knowledge of this?
>
> Greg Tipsword
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
ccm.al.intel.com!Curtis_Smith(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re[2]: Tail draggers. |
Text item:
Mike Seager -- Home: (503)429-1562, Work: (503)429-5103
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Tail draggers.
Date: 8/21/95 5:11 PM
Curtis
Go see Mike Seager at Vernonia, he gives tailwheel instruction in
the RV-6, $65 an hour. I received my tail wheel sign off from him and
got some great instruction in the RV-6 the plane I'm building. You
should be able to contact him by phone book. If not ask and I'll send
you his number. Don't have it with me now.
Good Luck
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Curtis Smith wrote:
> I have resolved that there are some things I should get out of the way
> before I myself take the plunge into another project (i.e. building an
> RV). The first on the list is to get my tail dragger endorsement. This
> I've started and by now I am convinced whatever I build, it will have
> to be tail wheel aircraft.
>
> My dilema. I have just 1 - 2 hours to go with with my instructor
> before my right off. However, I just found out last week that the J3
> Cub I have been renting (at Tein Oaks - 7S3) was ground looped and
> wrecked. I am so close now to my endorsement yet I don't know where
> else in the Hillsboro - Twin Oaks (Oregon) area to look for a tail
> dragger to rent.
>
> Could anyone in my area help? I have renters insurance with up to $25k
> hull coverage.
>
> Curt Smith (Curtis_Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com).
>
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Tail draggers.
From: Robert Busick <nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 17:11:59 -0600 (MDT)
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: priming elevator horn |
Hi Russ
>
> Does anyone have a way of priming the inside of the elevator control
> horn tubes (WD-405)?
>
> I cleaned the steel with naval jelly, then primed. I'm not sure that
> I was able to get inside the tubes adequately.
>
> thanks,
>
> russ
I've just sprayed inside with a can of "tempo" zinc-oxide, the plan is to
use an LPS-3 ?? treatment on the whole airframe when i'm finished as well..
the spraying seems to have worked ok on the inside..
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | My favorite tool |
I have a confession to make. I use a pneumatic rivet squeezer.
I bought it last christmas as a present to myself for two reasons:
1. With the right tools, any klutz (myself included) can turn out nice work.
2. I'm building in my garage, so I wanted to keep the noise down for
the rest of the household.
I must confess that it has become one of my favorite, most valuable tools.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary <70176.1660(at)compuserve.com> |
A question was recently asked about 1960s vintage conical mount engines. I
have a 1961 O-320 B2B C. (C is a field conversion from fixed pitch to constant
speed.) My engine is a factory high compression, 160HP, narrow deck, conical
mount engine with the lightening holes in the prop flange. The engine described
sounds similar. My engine was removed from a 1961 TriPacer. 1742 SCMOH
3300 SN. The compression was mid 70s over 80 after I saw the pre purchase
engine run. Oil analysis did not show any problems. During rebuild, I found
nothing that would not have allowed the engine to run another several hundred
hours. Some of what I know follows:
If your engine is going to be used in serious aerobatics High G maneuvers, get
a
late model wide deck with a solid flange. If your are going to do only sport
aerobatics, there is no problem with the narrow deck, light prop flange or conical
mount. Lycoming has a service bulletin to inspect the prop flange on all
aerobatics engines with the lightening holes on a recurring basis. If you are
not
going to do serious aerobatics like snap rolls on a regular basis, this does not
apply. To identify the standard deck engine, (standard deck is the correct
Lycoming terminology for the narrow deck engines) look at the cylinder base
hold downs. The standard deck has internal wrenching nuts. (An AD requires
that a reinforcement plate be placed between the nuts and cylinder base.) There
is not enough room for a wrench to fit around a standard nut hence the name
narrow deck was born. The wide deck has larger (wider) cylinder bases and uses
hex nuts.
There is no problem with the old style crank flange with the lightening holes
when used properly. They will withstand a lot of abuse. I have seen these
1960s vintage Lycoming suffer prop strikes and still be airworthy. This means
that they dial indicated and magnafluxed as good as new. Conical engine
mounts have also been used for a long time. I do not know anyone who can tell
the difference when flying the airplane. Conical mounts cost $20 for a complete
set. Dynafocal ones cost about $300 for a set. $300 is a very small percentage
of the total aircraft price, so do not let that be discouraging.
The best way to visually tell the condition of a Lycoming engine is to inspect
the
cam lobes. Rust and wear will show up there first. If the cam has rust and/or
pits, chances are the engine needs overhauled. There will never be rust on the
case. It is aluminum on all Lycomings that RVs use. Most internal parts are
coated with lead deposits and oil so they will show little rust also. Do not be
surprised to find 1 inch of sludge in the bottom of the oil sump, that is normal
from the lead in the fuel.
To learn more about Lycoming engines, find a copy of the T-18 newsletters
from the 60s. John Thorpe goes into the complete history.
Gary A. Sobek
RV-6 N-157GS S/N: 20480
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
| Subject: | Re: My favorite tool (squeezer) |
>I have a confession to make. I use a pneumatic rivet squeezer.
>I bought it last christmas as a present to myself for two reasons:
>1. With the right tools, any klutz (myself included) can turn out nice work.
>2. I'm building in my garage, so I wanted to keep the noise down for
> the rest of the household.
>
>I must confess that it has become one of my favorite, most valuable tools.
>
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
>
>
>
I am surprised at how many people I have talked to agree with you. Early on
all I heard was that it was too expensive, but, that seems to have changed
(the want not the price).
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..)
TAIL: ----------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
I know that I posted this in the past but my friend has not seen anything
come through on the list as of yet so here I go again....
Please add Don Riggs (wrgway(at)aol.com) to the list. Don has built an RV-4 -
N818WW; "Valerie's Nightmare" - and has flown it about 250 hours in the past
two years.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
Yesterday I checked out Van's web page via the AOL browser ( the only
reason I still have an AOL account) and was delighted to learn of the
upcoming RV-8 pictures.
Much to my chagrin I had error messages around all the pic..bummer!
Could someone, anyone e-mail a gif of the RV-8. It doesn't really
matter what format, JPEG, BITMAP, whatever I have the technology.
My future is riding on this one guys....
Dan
RV-6 Plans 23101...or maybe the 8!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | carl(at)drcpdx.stt3.com |
| Subject: | Lycoming 0360-E1A6D on a RV6 |
> An engine-man told me that the Lycoming 0360-E1A6D (apparenty used
> on the Seminole) is widely availble and can be bought at prices lower
> than more popular 0360 models. It is set up for CS props, fits on a
> dynafocal mount and has the parallel valves. He claims many are flying
> on RVs. Any body out there have any knowledge of this?
I'm not an engine expert but an A&P (my brother) told me to avoid the
Seminole engines as they are lightened, cheapened, versions of the 0-360,
akin to the infamous 0-320H engines of the 0-320 series. Whether they've
really had any problems I don't know; it may be just guilt by association.
The engine listing in the builders manual indicates this engine is 180hp,
9:1 compression, and gives the same description as the 0-320H.
Carl Weston
RV-6 23876 empennage control surfaces
wing kit on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: My favorite tool |
Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 said;
>I have a confession to make. I use a pneumatic rivet squeezer.
>I bought it last christmas as a present to myself for two reasons:
>1. With the right tools, any klutz (myself included) can turn out nice work.
>2. I'm building in my garage, so I wanted to keep the noise down for
> the rest of the household.
>I must confess that it has become one of my favorite, most valuable tools.
I found out about pneumatic squeezers late in my RV-3 construction project (14
years total time). I have a pneumatic hand squeezer with a number of different
heads, including one to dimple the last rivet in the trailing edge ribs and
another one to set the same rivet. I have a slightly larger pneumatic rivet
squeezer to set the 3/16" rivets on the main spar (Two over RV-4 main spars have
been riveted with it, and I still haven't done mine yet.) I also have a 18"
deep pneumatic dimpler (not stiff enough to rivet with) loaned to me by Larry
Sullivan for dimpling all of the skins.
By the time I had all these nice tools, I didn't see where I had any choice but
to build another airplane (or two?).
Jim Ayers
RV-3 s/n 50 flying anywhere I want to go now.
RV-4 building (sometimes)
btw Rocky (RV-3 N51RV) has at least four (4) pneumatic hand squeezers which he
uses regularly in fabricating new (you might have guessed by his "N" number)
P-51D's and TF-51's (I believe six total, since he finished the RV-3 in 1985)
for Pioneer Aero at Chino, Ca.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
I'm sorry if I created a controversy regarding steel vs. wood jigs but that's
what this forum is all about.
My point....I wanted to spend my limited time building an airplane....not a
fuse jig. If you have the money, and your time is important, rent/buy/steal
anything you can to make the building process as easy as possible. The metal
jig I rented took all of about 20 minutes to set-up. How long did it take
you guys to build your jigs? BTW, I built my wing jigs because they only
took a few hours to build and I didn't think in was a equitable use of my
resources to rent a wing jig.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: My favorite tool |
I got a pneumatic squeezer when I was part way through
my wings. I only wish that I didn't buy it right
at the start. What a great tool!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | carl(at)drcpdx.stt3.com |
| Subject: | Left-hand rotation engines |
Some stupid questions:
The discussion of the Seminole engines got me to thinking -
Some twins like the Seminole have counter-rotating props. Can a left hand
rotation engine be used on an RV, assuming you have the correct prop?
Can a left hand rotation engine be converted to right hand rotation?
I presume not, but thought I'd ask.
Carl Weston
RV-6 23876 empennage control surfaces
wing kit on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Engines and acro |
Gary Sobek wrote:
>
> If your engine is going to be used in serious aerobatics High G maneuvers, get
a
> late model wide deck with a solid flange. If your are going to do only sport
> aerobatics, there is no problem with the narrow deck...
> If you are not
> going to do serious aerobatics like snap rolls on a regular basis, this does
not
> apply.
I've seen this before and it confused me then, as it does now. Is the concern
with high G or high rotational rates? If I don't plan to snap but do plan
the occasional high-g turn (~5 g) do I still need to look for a wide deck?
It sounds to me like I do, but I'd like some clarification.
Dave Hyde - RV-6 spin research _formally_ abandoned as of today. On to
high AOA ACM techniques.
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Engine Question (fwd) |
>Herman said;
>
>The only issue is you will have a conical mount engine. The dynafocal mount
>version is suppose to be smoother as it dampens the vibrations more.
I concur with what herman dierks said and only what to additionally address this
portion of his statements.
I had to replace some parts (case and crank) on the 0 timed O-290 after 165
hours in my RV-3. It was a conical mount, and I was constantly trying to get
rid of vibration from the engine/prop.
I borrowed an accurate balance beam scale from a friend (plastic airplane
builder) and weighed all of the parts that mount on the crankshaft (connecting
rod, caps, cap bolts and nuts, pistons, wrist pins, wrist pin caps, rings, etc).
I then matched the components into assemblies that were as close to the same
weight as possible. I ended up with two pairs of assemblies that matched very
closely, but with 6 grams difference between the assembly pairs. One pair of
connecting rod/piston assemblies went on the #1 and #2 cylinder, and the other
pair went on the #3 and #4 cylinder.
On my first flight after the parts replacement, it felt like the RV-3 was
sliding through the air.
If you are going to overhaul the engine with the help of your A&P friend, by
just roughly matching the weight of the parts, you shouldn't have any worry
about it being a conical mount. (I learned a quite a bit about the engine in
the process, and really enjoyed seeing the mechanical simplicity inside the
engine.)
Jim Ayers
RV-3 flying
RV-4 building
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> I'm sorry if I created a controversy regarding steel vs. wood jigs but that's
> what this forum is all about.
>
> My point....I wanted to spend my limited time building an airplane....not a
> fuse jig.
> [... etc etc]
Hey don't apologize, that's what this forum is about! Your point
is well taken -- if you have a metal jig available to borrow or rent
or want to spend the $$ to buy one, go for it! I think what I and
others are trying to say is just that you don't NEED a metal jig.
I have to make a confession as well -- although I am using a wood
jig, it's a BORROWED wood jig. Easy for me to say "wood jigs are
fine" when I didn't even have to build the thing! :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: My favorite tool |
> my wings. I only wish that I didn't buy it right
> at the start. What a great tool!
OOPS -- obviously I meant I only wish I HAD bought it
right at the start!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
>
> Dave Hyde - RV-6 spin research _formally_ abandoned as of today. On to
> high AOA ACM techniques.
>
>
Dave,
Was it a pleasant experience??
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | rivet squeeeezer |
Hi guys,
I've been following the discussion on rivet squeezers. I'm convinced that
they are a great tool, but what is it used for and how much does it cost?
Mike graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | Re: My favorite tool |
Hi All,
Jerry Williams of Action Air Parts in Michigan shared a tip on using
"Alligator" style Pneumatic Squeezers. He said a 120 pound woman, who used
to work at an Airplane factory using 12-15 pound squeezers, passed it along
to him at this years Oshkosh show. So, I'll pass it along to the rv-list.
He said that rather than allowing the jaws to come together and smash the
rivet when the trigger is pulled, a more precise method is to pull the jaws
together with one hand and then hit the trigger with the other. Using this
method, there is no guessing as to whether the squeezer is at the right
angle and whether the shop head of the rivet will be perfectly parallel to
the part. He hasn't tried it and either have I, but it sounds like it
should work great. This technique only applies to the alligator style
squeezers and won't work with "C" style squeezers.
By the way, I ordered an Ingersoll Rand air drill (about $45) and a
rebuilt Chicago Pnuematic 3x rivet gun ($150) from Jerry at Action Air
Parts. The drill came from the B1 Bomber factory and is the best pnuematic
tool I own! I can't believe the smoothness of this drill! Pulling the
trigger is a true delight! The drill retailed for 365 dollars. IT IS A
STEAL AT $45 SURPLUS! He has about 30 left. I was so happy with the
tools he sold me that I ordered a palm drill ($45) and a rebuilt Chicago
Pnuematic right angle drill. ($130) I should have these items later this
week if you are interesting in hearing about the quality. Jerry can be
reached at (810) 364-5885.
John
(Mis-drilled pilot holes on HS-413 bracket. Plans don't show dimensions on
inner rivet hole locations. I drilled 1/4 inch in from the outside of
flange based on what I could make out from the drawings. Too close to
rivet now. About $8.00 of parts coming from Vans. Learned that if plans
don't show dimensions, call Van's to get them before drilling! Bill said
that will mark the drawings for revision to include the dimension.)
>Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 said;
>
>>I have a confession to make. I use a pneumatic rivet squeezer.
>>I bought it last christmas as a present to myself for two reasons:
>>1. With the right tools, any klutz (myself included) can turn out nice work.
>>2. I'm building in my garage, so I wanted to keep the noise down for
>> the rest of the household.
>>I must confess that it has become one of my favorite, most valuable tools.
>
>
>I found out about pneumatic squeezers late in my RV-3 construction project (14
>years total time). I have a pneumatic hand squeezer with a number of
>different
>heads, including one to dimple the last rivet in the trailing edge ribs and
>another one to set the same rivet. I have a slightly larger pneumatic rivet
>squeezer to set the 3/16" rivets on the main spar (Two over RV-4 main
>spars have
>been riveted with it, and I still haven't done mine yet.) I also have a 18"
>deep pneumatic dimpler (not stiff enough to rivet with) loaned to me by Larry
>Sullivan for dimpling all of the skins.
>
>By the time I had all these nice tools, I didn't see where I had any
>choice but
>to build another airplane (or two?).
>
>Jim Ayers
>RV-3 s/n 50 flying anywhere I want to go now.
>RV-4 building (sometimes)
>
>btw Rocky (RV-3 N51RV) has at least four (4) pneumatic hand squeezers which he
>uses regularly in fabricating new (you might have guessed by his "N" number)
>P-51D's and TF-51's (I believe six total, since he finished the RV-3 in 1985)
>for Pioneer Aero at Chino, Ca.
>
>The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains
>information that had to be encoded to ensure successful transmission
>through various mail systems. To decode the file use the UUDECODE
>program.
>--------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------
>begin 644 rfc822.txt
>M4F5C96EV960Z(&)Y(&-C;6%I;"!FM8W)L+F-O;2%B87)N:&%R=$!M871R;VYI8W,N8V]M#0I8+45N=F5L;W!E+49R
>M;VTZ(&-R;"YC;VTA8F%R;FAAM(&9R;VT@;F5T8V]MM141%3C$N2$%#+D-/32`H4$U$1B!6-"XS+3$S(",U.#@T*2!I9"`\,#%(54-,
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>M(#(Q.C(P.C0V("TP-S`P#0I296-E:79E9#H@8GD@;6%TM-"XQ+U--22TT+C$I(&ED($%!,#8Q,38[($UO;BP@,C$@075G(#DU(#(Q.C$U
>M.C4X(%!$5`T*4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT@;6%I;"YCM;7-V+FYE=&-O;2YC;VT@=VET:"!33510("@X+C8N,3(O4TU)+30N,2D-"B!I
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>M-3D@+3`W,#`-"E)E8V5I=F5D.B!B>2!CM,"`H-2XV-6,O241!+3$N-2!F;W(@M(#L@36]N+"`R,2!!=6<@,3DY-2`R,3HP,#HU-R`M,#M+"`R,2!!=6<@,3DY-2`R,3HP,#HU-2`M,#M=FED($$N($)AM8V]M/@T*4W5B:F5C=#H@37D@9F%V;W)I=&4@=&]O;`T*6"U396YD97(Z(&)A
>MM;0T*17)R;W)S+71O.B!B;W5N8V5S0&UA=')O;FECM:60Z(#Q0:6YE+E-53BXS+CDQ+CDU,#@R,#$P,#M8W)L,3,N8W)L+F-O;3X-"DU)344M=F5RM<&4Z(%1%6%0O4$Q!24X[(&-H87)S970]55,M05-#24D-"D-O;G1E;G0M=')A
>H;G-F97(M96YC;V1I;F
>end
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: priming elevator horn |
>Hi Russ
>>
>> Does anyone have a way of priming the inside of the elevator control
>> horn tubes (WD-405)?
>>
>> I cleaned the steel with naval jelly, then primed. I'm not sure that
>> I was able to get inside the tubes adequately.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> russ
>
> I've just sprayed inside with a can of "tempo" zinc-oxide, the plan is to
> use an LPS-3 ?? treatment on the whole airframe when i'm finished as well..
LPS-3 is a good choice for an internal tubing protection oil. The
certified PIK sailplanes even call out LPS-3 for this purpose.
In this case, LPS-3 is squirted through a 1/8 hole into 4130 steel tubing
weldments, sloshed around, and then the hole is sealed with a closed-end
pop rivet. The oil coating and vapors are trapped, and prevent any
internal corrosion.
Since this elevator horn part does not have a sealed portion of steel
tubing, perhaps you are refering to one of the ACF-50 type corrosion
inhibitors that is applied globaly to the aircraft interior??
... Gil Alexander
>
> the spraying seems to have worked ok on the inside..
>
> Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Engines and acro |
I have no problem doing mild aerobatics or constant G loads in a
narrow deck engine with lightening holes in the prop flange. Unless
the pilot is conditioned, G-loads over 3-4 will seam high. I do not
like or recommend "high rotational rate" maneuvers where a fast change
of direction / loads occur.
Gary
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Engines and acro
Date: 8/22/95 11:35 AM
> going to do serious aerobatics like snap rolls on a regular basis, this does
not
> apply.
I've seen this before and it confused me then, as it does now. Is the concern
with high G or high rotational rates? If I don't plan to snap but do plan
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is my big concern!
the occasional high-g turn (~5 g) do I still need to look for a wide deck?
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think 3 G is a lot for the average pilot.
>>The O-320's have been certificated in many utility class aircraft with 4.4 G
>>ratings. I do not know of any restrictions imposed on this aircraft/engine
>>combination. Does any one know of any restrictions? What is the highest G
>>load maneuver routinely done by an RV pilot?
It sounds to me like I do, but I'd like some clarification.
Dave Hyde - RV-6 spin research _formally_ abandoned as of today. On to
high AOA ACM techniques.
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dick Steffens <res6246(at)des.dukepower.com> |
Has anyone used or know of anyone who has used a fuse jig with a
single center beam that can be rotated like Van shows as a alternate
type of jig?
Dick Steffens
RV-6 finishing the wings
Dick Steffens
res6246(at)des.dukepower.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
| Subject: | My Favorite Tool |
>
> Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 said;
>
> >I have a confession to make. I use a pneumatic rivet squeezer.
> >I bought it last christmas as a present to myself for two reasons:
> >1. With the right tools, any klutz (myself included) can turn out nice work.
> >2. I'm building in my garage, so I wanted to keep the noise down for
> > the rest of the household.
> >I must confess that it has become one of my favorite, most valuable tools.
>
Okay, everyone seems to agree that pneumatic rivet squeezers
are cool. Now, let's talk about what they cost!
My Avery catalog lists one for $320.00, but that is for the
body only. Add a decent sized yoke and the price is in excess
of $400.00. Is this another example of 'If you're gonna play,
'ya gotta pay', or are there cheaper alternatives?
I used to worship Avery, but recently I bought a digital
level for $25.00 *less* than the price they were selling
the same model for. Add shipping and it's even worse.
At the builders class I attented, Art Chard was selling
squeezers for ~300.00 - with yokes. At the time I thought
they were an expensive luxury and didn't buy one. Of course,
at that time I thought *hand* squeezers were an expensive
luxury.
Live and learn.
| From: | bataller(at)tif623.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
Just reporting in. I took off last week to take my RV6A project to the
airport for final assembly. After a week, the wings, landing gear, tail and all
control surfaces are mounted and pretty much adjusted. Wow, all painted and
together, it sure looks like its ready to fly. Still needs about two more
months of long weekends to finish (I hope). And, those close tolerance spar bolts
are real tight! Used alot of lubricant and people to help get all of them in,
but
the spar and landing gear bolts are in. I'll finally be able to send some photos
to two of you out there (I didn't forget).
Gary Bataller
N615RV
Westboro, MA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hulse <mikeh(at)zipper.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | My Favorite Tool |
By chance my wife and I were discussing the purchase of a pneumatic
squeezer last night. Does anyone have any experience as to which brands
are the best for the least $$ ?
Thanks in advance...
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: rivet squeeeezer |
> Hi guys,
> I've been following the discussion on rivet squeezers. I'm convinced
that they are a great tool, but what is it used for and how much does it cost?
>
Look em up in the avery catalog -- about $375. Used in place of hand
squeezers for squeezing rivets and dimpling. Especially nice when
dimpling all those holes in the wing rib flanges. You may not need them
though if you purchase the pre-dimpled option.
;-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Fwd: Lycoming 0360-E1A6D on a RV6 (fwd) |
My engine list stats the following on this engine
180 Horsepower
t/o rpm 2700
fuel 100
c.r. 9.00 to 1
e s/n suffix -77
Integral accessory section crankcase, front mounted fuel pump,
external fuel pump, D$RN-2021 impulse coupling, dual magnetos and
counterweight crankshaft
Ross
6a - priming bulkheads
From my posting a few weeks back on what the engine codes mean,
the 'D' on the end indicates a Dual Mag. (both mags driven off of
the same gear)
The 6 means it has sixth order counter weights.
Are you sure this is a O360 and not a IO360?
I did not think the 180 HP had the counterweights on the crank
but I could be wrong as there are to many variations to keep up with.
D A 'D' on the end (4th or 5th letter of suffex)
indicates the Bendix 'Dual mag' in single housing.
6 On 4 cyl, a 6 indicates one sixth order and one eighth
order
counterweights on crank. Only on 200HP as far as I
know,
for example IO-360-A1B6D.
> From root Mon Aug 21 17:18:45 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Message-Id: <9508212111.AA05322(at)disney.dp.uop-net.com>
> From: uop.com!GETIPSWO(at)matronics.com (GETIPSWO)
> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 19 95:98
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Lycoming 0360-E1A6D on a RV6
>
> An engine-man told me that the Lycoming 0360-E1A6D (apparenty used
> on the Seminole) is widely availble and can be bought at prices
lower
> than more popular 0360 models. It is set up for CS props, fits on a
> dynafocal mount and has the parallel valves. He claims many are
flying
> on RVs. Any body out there have any knowledge of this?
>
> Greg Tipsword
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Tue Aug 22 13:47:41 0700 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: Re[2]: My favorite tool
This is a Mime message, which your current mail reader
may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as
text. To process the rest, you will have to use a Mime
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details.
--IMA.Boundary.809123774
I'm still new enough that I haven't used all of the tools that I bought for
this project, but I have another suggestion for "favorite tool". I had a
$70 credit, so I bought the pneumatic Cleco tool from Avery. At the time,
I thought it was pretty extravagant. The more I use it, the more I like
it. I may not get Popeye arms this way, but it sure made it easy and fast
to Cleco the horiz stab spars. Now to figure out how to finance a
pneumatic squeezer....
russ
--IMA.Boundary.809123774--
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool |
I'm a little confused. I thought hand squeezing was easy
and gave great results.
Why is the pneumatic squeezer better?
1) faster, but only slightly
2) 12,000+ rivets gets old
3) sore hands
4) better quality
5) deeper throat than hand squeezer
6) there was one comment about noise?
I'm suspecting it's 1, 2 and 3. Am I just underestimating the
significance of 1, 2 and 3? Up to now, I thought hand squeezers
plus avery tool was the way to go.
Don (hoping to get tools and 6A empanage soon)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool (major chatter) |
Yes, hand squeezing is easy and does give great results.
I don't mean to be pushing pneumatic squeezers as something you just
gotta have. But don't borrow one from a friend like I did, or you'll
soon find yourself $400 poorer, like I did. It's just so nice to use.
I think one of the main reasons I like it so much is that you only have
to use one hand to hold the squeezer as opposed to two with the hand
squeezer. This frees up the other hand to hold the part steady or
whatever. I actually do a lot of work just holding the part in one
hand and dimpling or even squeezing rivets in the part with the
squeezer in the other hand, whereas I used to have to always clamp the
part to the table or something.
One DISADVANTAGE to pneumatic squeezers is that they don't have
adjustable length plungers -- they're fixed at the average length it
takes to squeeze dimples with standard dies. This means if you're using
it to squeeze rivets you have to adjust the depth by putting little
washers under the dies. Kind of a PITA. BUT.... I didn't have to suffer
that for long. A friend who is a tool maker made me a plunger that
adjusts by screwing in and out just like the hand squeezer. Cool!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool (fwd) |
You also use the pneumatic squeezer to do a lot of the dimpling
operations as well. Just put in the dimple dies and dimple all the
rib and bulkhead holes for example. It just makes fast work out
of dimpling and riveting for many tasks.
Yes, mainly items 1, 2 and 3 and maybe 4.
You have to be careful with it as it can also be a dangerous tool
and can make quick work out of maching your fingers. Don't let
your kids close to the thing.
Herman
>
> I'm a little confused. I thought hand squeezing was easy
> and gave great results.
>
> Why is the pneumatic squeezer better?
> 1) faster, but only slightly
> 2) 12,000+ rivets gets old
> 3) sore hands
> 4) better quality
> 5) deeper throat than hand squeezer
> 6) there was one comment about noise?
>
> I'm suspecting it's 1, 2 and 3. Am I just underestimating the
> significance of 1, 2 and 3? Up to now, I thought hand squeezers
> plus avery tool was the way to go.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Left-hand rotation engines (fwd) |
I would stay away from a left hand engine.
First, all normal light plane pilots will be use to a right hand
turning engine and use to using right rudder on take off.
A left hand engine will produce the opposite torque so you will now
need left rudder on take off. This would just be an accident waiting
to happen.
Second, I expect the parts are more rare and therefor will cost more.
I am refering to things like the cam and maybe the cam/crank gears.
Even the mags are probably different due to different rotation.
Yes, I am sure it could be converted to a right hand engine. You would
have to get the parts manual and see what parts are different and
change all of them. The cam would be different and maybe the gears (if
they are not straight cut). Even the timing marks on the gears are
probably different for example. Again, probably not worth the trouble.
Some of you may know of Smokey Yunic (may be spelled wrong) of race
car fame. Use to write articles in Popular Science, etc.
He took V8's and made them run left handed, called them reverse rotaters.
He did this for oval track racing as then the torque helped turn the
car to the left. If you watch the midgits or outlaw cars race on TNN
you see the left wheel is off the ground going around the corners
due to the engine torque of the right hand engine. Smokey's left
hand engine did not have this problem. He just had special cams
ground. I don't know what happended to this idea as they all look
like they are running right hand turning engines these days.
So, yes you can make an engine run either direction if you have the
money.
Herman
> Subject: Left-hand rotation engines
>
>
> Some stupid questions:
>
> The discussion of the Seminole engines got me to thinking -
> Some twins like the Seminole have counter-rotating props. Can a left hand
> rotation engine be used on an RV, assuming you have the correct prop?
>
> Can a left hand rotation engine be converted to right hand rotation?
> I presume not, but thought I'd ask.
>
> Carl Weston
> RV-6 23876 empennage control surfaces
> wing kit on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engines and acro (fwd) |
I think you are confusing 'wide deck' with other parts of the engine.
The wide deck is the newer style case and cylinders. It referes to
the wider bolt circle at the base of the cylinders. The cylinder
base is also thicker.
This has little to do with the crankshaft. It is the crankshaft that
usually breaks doing snap rolls and high G acro. There are still
many of the newer cranks that have the lightning holes in the flange.
I expect that most of the 'wide deck' engines have the lightning holes.
There are cranks that are approved for acro use that do not have the
lightning holes. However, they an crack also. Many say that it just
moves the area to crack farther back on the crankshaft.
The other variable is solid or hollow crank. If you use a fixed pitch,
then you can use a solid crank which is stronger. Most cranks are
hollow and are just pluged for use with a fixed pitch prop.
You can find solid cranks but they are probably more rare as not that
many engines use them.
The best way to avoid all of this concern is to use a wood prop.
It is much lighter and avoids a lot of strain on the crank if you plan
to do serious aerobatics.
For normal rolls and loops, I would not worry about it either way.
I don't think RV's are built for doing lots of Snaps, tail slides, or
Lomchovacks (?sp). Those are the routines that are hard on crankshafts.
Herman
> Message-Id: <199508221712.KAA19528(at)netcomsv.netcom.com>
> From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Engines and acro
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list)
>
> Gary Sobek wrote:
> >
> > If your engine is going to be used in serious aerobatics High G maneuvers,
get a
> > late model wide deck with a solid flange. If your are going to do only sport
> > aerobatics, there is no problem with the narrow deck...
>
> > If you are not
> > going to do serious aerobatics like snap rolls on a regular basis, this does
not
> > apply.
>
> I've seen this before and it confused me then, as it does now. Is the concern
> with high G or high rotational rates? If I don't plan to snap but do plan
> the occasional high-g turn (~5 g) do I still need to look for a wide deck?
> It sounds to me like I do, but I'd like some clarification.
>
> Dave Hyde - RV-6 spin research _formally_ abandoned as of today. On to
> high AOA ACM techniques.
> nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: rivet squeeeezer |
I've been building for a year and on the net for 9 months, and now you
all tell me the best tool in the universe is the pneumatic rivet
squeezer. Fine time to bring this up. And while we are on the subject,
just where do you get those predimpled ribs/option?
Reminds me when the BD-4 kit first came out. Neimann Marcus was
selling it in their catalog with a one year FREE supply of air!
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> > I've been following the discussion on rivet squeezers. I'm convinced
that they are a great tool, but what is it used for and how much does it cost?
> >
>
> Look em up in the avery catalog -- about $375. Used in place of hand
> squeezers for squeezing rivets and dimpling. Especially nice when
> dimpling all those holes in the wing rib flanges. You may not need them
> though if you purchase the pre-dimpled option.
>
> ;-)
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bonorden(at)lagrange.amd.com (David Bonorden) |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool (major chatter) |
>
>I think one of the main reasons I like it so much is that you only have
>to use one hand to hold the squeezer as opposed to two with the hand
>squeezer. This frees up the other hand to hold the part steady or
>whatever. I actually do a lot of work just holding the part in one
>hand and dimpling or even squeezing rivets in the part with the
>squeezer in the other hand, whereas I used to have to always clamp the
>part to the table or something.
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
>
I just clamp the hand squeezer in my vise. Works great for dimpling
ribs and squeezing rivets on small parts. One hand to hold the part and
the other to operate the squeezer. But then, I've never experienced a
pneumatic squeezer :).
Dave Bonorden
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID P. DONNELLY" <102616.73(at)compuserve.com> |
I am an Internet neophyte who is trying to participate in on-line discussions
with other RV builders. Can you help with this procedure?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Richard S. Ward) |
| Subject: | Engine Ring Seating ? |
Engine ring seating is an item that has been nagging me for a long time
and I am surprised the topic hasn't been brought up before. How are all of
you that have new or rebuilt engines (or new or rebuilt cylinders) handle
the dichotomy of seating the rings in your engine and doing taxi test on
your new airplane? From what I have read, most engine manufacturers
recommend that you run the engine at 75% power for the first hour and then
alternation between 65% to 75% for the second hour. This is obviously not
consistent with doing low speed taxi tests. What are most of you doing for
this?
If one buys a new engine are the rings seated in a test cell by the
manufacturer?
-- Rich, RV4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Randy S. McCallister" <rmccalli(at)runet.edu> |
| Subject: | Pneumatic Squeezers |
Before the discussion gets totally away from squeezers...which is
preferable if you can afford only one type? A C-jaw or an alligator type?
Sizes?
Randy RV-6 (empanage level)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Spin clarification |
I mentioned yesterday in a .sig that I was giving up my spin research.
Since several people asked, I thought I'd clarify. I was _not_ doing flight
tests, I was trying to develop a computer model (a simulation) of an RV-6
in a spin to try and predict the various spin modes of the airplane. I found
that there was little chance of getting the data I needed for the computer
model without either a spin tunnel model or an instrumented RV-6. Neither
was available. I never received a response from Van's regarding research,
and an attempt to modify a Grumman Yankee computer model
didn't work either, so I decided to pursue a different thesis topic.
That's it, folks, nothing interesting at all!
And no, I never worked for Prime Computer, but that makes 4 Dave Hydes
that I know of.
Dave Hyde (one of the originals)
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
>
David Donnelly writes:
> I am an Internet neophyte who is trying to participate in on-line discussions
> with other RV builders. Can you help with this procedure?
>
>
David,
If you have some RV/aviation related topic, just post it. Avoid the use
of ALL CAPS, it looks like shouting. To emphasize a word, use *this* or *THIS*
method. Also, we often use simple characters which look like faces when turned
sideways. Examples: :-) 8-) :-( :^)
We can't see you, so these help distinguish humor from seriousness.
Above all, be respectful of other people's opinions and avoid "flames" or
angry responses. Remember, somebody's wierd idea may be just the answer you wereseeking
for a construction problem. We have a great forum here and we have had
some very interesting discussions. It is considered good form to include a
very
brief status of your project when you sign off.
Example: RV-6A Empenage done, wings done, fuselage started
Good luck
Mike Graves
RV-6A Looking at plans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | carl(at)drcpdx.stt3.com |
| Subject: | pre-dimpled option |
Randall -
Is there a pre-dimpled rib option on the wing kit?
> dimpling all those holes in the wing rib flanges. You may not need them
> though if you purchase the pre-dimpled option.
Carl Weston
RV-6 23876 empennage control surfaces
wing kit on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Squeezers |
> Before the discussion gets totally away from squeezers...which is
> preferable if you can afford only one type? A C-jaw or an alligator type?
> Sizes?
The C-jaw type seems to be the most common. That's what mine is. Best
size -- I don't know, just the one Avery sells, weighs 5 lbs. There
are bigger ones but they wouldn't be much use for anything except the
spar rivets (which you can do easier and cheaper with the Avery arbor
anyway).
I think the 2.5" yoke is a good all-around yoke. If you want
to spend more $$, get a 4" and a little (1.5"?) close quarters one.
All this stuff is in the Avery Tool catalog.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
(Note to PDX area locals -- Art Chard sometimes has pneumatic squeezers,
yokes, etc. for sale at a pretty good discount. Check with him first.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Pre-dimpled (Was Re: My Favorite Tool) |
In an earlier post, I said:
> You may not need them
> though if you purchase the pre-dimpled option.
>
> ;-)
Note the ;-) (hee hee)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool |
Several people asked me about the adjustable pneumatic squeezer
plunger I mentioned in an earlier post. First off, the friend I
mentioned works as a tool maker at a local company, and he just
makes odds and ends like this for local builders sometimes on his
lunch hour at work, but he won't make anything to sell since he's
using the company's tools. Also the funny thing is while my plunger
works great in my squeezer, it won't work in another guy's
squeezer of the same manufacture. I think it has to do with the
fact that his yoke moves a bit more than mine under pressure, and
perhaps the plunger binds in the hole. The point being that they
may need to be custom fit to your squeezer.
But I can describe it anyhow for those that want to try making
one. Here's some crude ascii artwork of how it looks:
_____
| |
| o |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | <-- plunger drilled and tapped for threaded shaft
| |
|_____|
|===|
|===| <-- threaded shaft
|===|
|===|
|===|
|===|
|===| .----.
.-------. <-- base welded --> /| |\ <-- base squared off to more or
|_-----_| to end of shaft ||____|| less match shape of race. This
^ ^ is done to keep the threaded
|___ ground out to fit cam ____| shaft from rotating when the
plunger is screwed in and out
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | pre-dimpled option |
>
Carl Weston writes:
> Randall -
>
> Is there a pre-dimpled rib option on the wing kit?
>
>
> > dimpling all those holes in the wing rib flanges. You may not need them
> > though if you purchase the pre-dimpled option.
>
> > ;-) <------ note the expression (wink!)
>
Mike Graves
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Pneumatic Squeezers (fwd) |
I think everyone is using the 'C' jaw type.
I think the typical size is about 1 1/2 inches deep or so.
You can spend more $$ and buy different sizes.
The default one that comes with most of the C jaw squeezers will
do all the ribs/bulkheads and normal work. There is always
something you want to rivet where it will not quite reach and you
have to use the rivet gun or the avery dimple tool.
>
> Before the discussion gets totally away from squeezers...which is
> preferable if you can afford only one type? A C-jaw or an alligator type?
> Sizes?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Squeezers - more info |
>Hi All,
>
>Jerry Williams of Action Air Parts in Michigan shared a tip on using
>"Alligator" style Pneumatic Squeezers. He said a 120 pound woman, who used
>to work at an Airplane factory using 12-15 pound squeezers, passed it along
>to him at this years Oshkosh show. So, I'll pass it along to the rv-list.
>
>He said that rather than allowing the jaws to come together and smash the
>rivet when the trigger is pulled, a more precise method is to pull the jaws
>together with one hand and then hit the trigger with the other. Using this
>method, there is no guessing as to whether the squeezer is at the right
>angle and whether the shop head of the rivet will be perfectly parallel to
>the part. He hasn't tried it and either have I, but it sounds like it
>should work great. This technique only applies to the alligator style
>squeezers and won't work with "C" style squeezers.
John,
There is an equivalent for this using the "C" style squeezers.
I'm not sure what safety codes it violates, but I always assemble
my "C" squeezer _without_ the plunger return spring. This enables me to
slide the plunger portion of the squeezer forward into position against the
rivet, or the dimpler die "prong" into the hole, before I apply force with
the trigger. It gives all of the advantages listed above.
I discovered this after I found that a dimple die in the pnuematic
squeezer also works well as a punch if mis-aimed :^(
We bought an old C-squeezer from a retired aerospace worker, and
found that there are two types of trigger on these devices. It's the
equivalent of a "feathering" trigger on an air drill. Our squeezer
originally did not have this type of trigger, and just went "kerchunk"
rather violently when the trigger was pressed. Sid Goldin in Visalia, CA
modified it for us, and added a smoother trigger, and now the force is
applied slowly if the trigger is smoothly activated. It's _much_ easier to
use now. Make sure any squeezer you get works in this smoother way.
Sid is also a good source of C yokes at a lower price than most
others. He is at (209) 627-1240 - tell him you are building an RV. I
mostly use just two yokes, the "standard yoke" (about 2.5 inch deep, 1.5
inch gap), and the "one set only" yoke, which actually forms the shop head
against the yoke itself. This one is great for getting into tight spots,
such as the trailing edge of the aileron rib.
You'll notice the "us" references above. A single C-squeezer can
easily be shared (3 active builders at the moment) between several projects
with a little planning if the geographical distances at not too great.
This is a great way of reducung costs.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
.... squeezed the upper aft fuse. framing to-gether last
night. My wife won't let me use the rivet gun after
10:00 pm :^)
**** rest of John Hovans posting deleted ****
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: pre-dimpled option |
Text item:
I suppose next will be the pre-assembled kit.
Any speculation on cost?
MikeW
Text item: External Message Header
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Subject: pre-dimpled option
From: drcpdx.stt3.com!carl(at)matronics.com
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:47:29 -0700
id sma019303; Wed Aug 23 09:47:07 1995
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | My Favorite Tool - adjustable plungers |
Randall and RV-listers,
The new US Industrial Tool & Supply catalog shows an almost
identical device on Page 28 (5052ADJ - $62). Theirs has the base end
tapped, and the plunger end threaded.
This may be an easier alternative for those of us without machinist
friends :^) The one restriction they quote is that the C-yoke base must
have at least a 1 inch thick base.
... keep on squeezing ... Gil Alexander
PS ... just noticed it in their catalog, I don't have one ....
>Several people asked me about the adjustable pneumatic squeezer
>plunger I mentioned in an earlier post. First off, the friend I
>mentioned works as a tool maker at a local company, and he just
>makes odds and ends like this for local builders sometimes on his
>lunch hour at work, but he won't make anything to sell since he's
>using the company's tools. Also the funny thing is while my plunger
>works great in my squeezer, it won't work in another guy's
>squeezer of the same manufacture. I think it has to do with the
>fact that his yoke moves a bit more than mine under pressure, and
>perhaps the plunger binds in the hole. The point being that they
>may need to be custom fit to your squeezer.
>
>But I can describe it anyhow for those that want to try making
>one. Here's some crude ascii artwork of how it looks:
> _____
> | |
> | o |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | |
> | | <-- plunger drilled and tapped for threaded shaft
> | |
> |_____|
> |===|
> |===| <-- threaded shaft
> |===|
> |===|
> |===|
> |===|
> |===| .----.
> .-------. <-- base welded --> /| |\ <-- base squared off to more or
> |_-----_| to end of shaft ||____|| less match shape of race. This
> ^ ^ is done to keep the threaded
> |___ ground out to fit cam ____| shaft from rotating when the
> plunger is screwed in and out
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | More Squeezer Chatter... |
Just to add fuel to the cost fire - I bought a near mint condition Chicago
Pneumatic 214 squeezer last year at the Oshkosh swap tent for
*$145.00* (including a 2.5 " yoke). Since then I've collected a number of
additional yokes. I also picked up one of Avery's hand squeezers that is
compatible with the yokes I've collected for the CP 214. I too prefer the
CP 214 for dimpling and squeezing rivets larger than 3/32". The added
flexibility of using the Avery squeezer with my 214 yokes is really great.
I highly recommend the Avery hand squeezer.
Greg Tipsword
Left wing coming out of the jig.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Please unsubscribe me from the list.
I am changing to a new internet account.
Thanks,
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
Please subscribe me to the list.
I am using a new account.
Thanks,
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More Squeezer Chatter... |
Text item:
All this chatter about pneumatic squeezers. Lazy ... lazy ... lazy.
What was it Van is supposed to have said ... something like ..."you
don't go faster by being lazy" NOW for those of you who don't recognize
a joke .... THIS IS A JOKE!! Ha! Ha! ..get it??
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: More Squeezer Chatter...
Date: 8/23/95 2:25 PM
Just to add fuel to the cost fire - I bought a near mint condition Chicago
Pneumatic 214 squeezer last year at the Oshkosh swap tent for
*$145.00* (including a 2.5 " yoke). Since then I've collected a number of
additional yokes. I also picked up one of Avery's hand squeezers that is
compatible with the yokes I've collected for the CP 214. I too prefer the
CP 214 for dimpling and squeezing rivets larger than 3/32". The added
flexibility of using the Avery squeezer with my 214 yokes is really great.
I highly recommend the Avery hand squeezer.
Greg Tipsword
Left wing coming out of the jig.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: More Squeezer Chatter...
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 19 95:98
From: uop.com!GETIPSWO(at)matronics.com (GETIPSWO)
4.1)
-UOP)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Hi guys,
At the risk a sparking a controversy, I would like to see some opinions
on the slider vs. tip-up canopies. Personnaly, I think the slider looks better
on the ramp, but what are the pros and cons of the two methods?
Mike Graves
RV-6A on kitchen table
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Engines and acro (fwd) |
Just curious, why is a tail slide hard on the crank? I assume it
would be even harder on the crank if it was a full torque tailslide?
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
> The best way to avoid all of this concern is to use a wood prop.
> It is much lighter and avoids a lot of strain on the crank if you plan
> to do serious aerobatics.
>
> For normal rolls and loops, I would not worry about it either way.
> I don't think RV's are built for doing lots of Snaps, tail slides, or
> Lomchovacks (?sp). Those are the routines that are hard on crankshafts.
>
> Herman
>
> > Message-Id: <199508221712.KAA19528(at)netcomsv.netcom.com>
> > From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Engines and acro
> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list)
> >
> > Gary Sobek wrote:
> > >
> > > If your engine is going to be used in serious aerobatics High G maneuvers,
get a
> > > late model wide deck with a solid flange. If your are going to do only sport
> > > aerobatics, there is no problem with the narrow deck...
> >
> > > If you are not
> > > going to do serious aerobatics like snap rolls on a regular basis, this does
not
> > > apply.
> >
> > I've seen this before and it confused me then, as it does now. Is the concern
> > with high G or high rotational rates? If I don't plan to snap but do plan
> > the occasional high-g turn (~5 g) do I still need to look for a wide deck?
> > It sounds to me like I do, but I'd like some clarification.
> >
> > Dave Hyde - RV-6 spin research _formally_ abandoned as of today. On to
> > high AOA ACM techniques.
> > nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
> own and are independent of my employer.
>
> Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wing Jig Info Needed RV6 |
Hey out there in cyberspace, I setting up shop in anticipation of wing kit
arrival and haven't been able to gleen this info from the preview plans.
What is the optimum distance (inside face to inside face) of my tail kit jig
upright members for wing construction. Also, what minimum height (above
floor) should the angles that attach to the uprights and support the wing
spar be set in order to allow for working clearance of ailerons and flaps.
Also any other tips on wing jigs.
Chet Razer in Sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Tip-up Canopy Construction Question |
For you guys who have installed a tip-up canopy...
Van says to cut the aft turtle deck skin for the canopy about 1
inch undersize in the area over the baggage compartment.
Questions .... did you do this?
...Was the final dimension close to the curve given in the plans or not?
...Did you rivet this skin on before canopy fitting or not?
...Any other hints??
... thanks in advance ... Gil Alexander .. fitting aft turtle deck skin.
It really looks like an
airplane now!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
>
At the risk a sparking a controversy, I would like to see
> some opinions on the slider vs. tip-up canopies. Personnaly, I think
> the slider looks better on the ramp, but what are the pros and cons of
> the two methods?
Personally, when I do mine, I will probably to stick with the tip-up. I've
heard that the tip-up is easier, gives you access to the instruments, has
somewhat better visibility, and is more water tight. On the other hand, you
can't taxi with it all the way open, and it sticks up awfully high when it's
open.
But on the other hand, I'm curious about a third option that I've seen on
another ship. The canopy is attached to two arms on each side and swings up
and back that way, or perhaps I would push mine forward.
I also have been considering splitting the rear half of the canopy over the
cargo bay and making a gull wing opening on one side for easier baggage
loading.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Canopies - pros & cons |
Mike & RV-listers,
I have to quote Van from his Oshkosh RV6 forum for this one...
He said that none of the reasons (given on the fuselage order form)
for or against either are overwhelming enough to sway your choice. Pick
the reason you like, and go with it.
I picked increased visibility (just like my sailplane) and went
with the the tip-up .... but that was only _my_ favorite reason, choose
your own.
Pick one, for any reason, and go for it .... some pros and cons are
given below. I am sure others will get added :^)
... Gil Alexander
TIP-UP PRO
increased visibility
slightly easier to construct
better access to rear of panel
cheaper
TIP-UP CON
harder to handle stong winds in taxi mode
rain leaks can hit avionics - need shield added - later hinge style helps
"rinky-dink" hold up strut - needs gas spring option
SLIDING PRO
looks sexier ... like a WWII fighter
water leaks on head not avionics (cheaper?)
better ventilation when open on ground
better in winds during taxi
SLIDING CON
slightly reduced visibility
poor access behind panel
slightly more $
steel strut can screw up compass - fixed with SS strut option
>Hi guys,
> At the risk a sparking a controversy, I would like to see some opinions
>on the slider vs. tip-up canopies. Personnaly, I think the slider looks better
>on the ramp, but what are the pros and cons of the two methods?
>
>
> Mike Graves
>
>RV-6A on kitchen table
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool (major chatter) |
Has anyone seen a pneumatic squeezer triggered by a foot pedal? Very
nice... especially when table mounted will leave both hands free to
handle the parts.
+~~\ .---.
.-----------------------. 1 \ _..-'-----`-._ |
| Remi D. Khu | |____`-~' ____ _)"|p
| (rkhu(at)earthlink.net) |D------L____________/'____`\_./"|
| | o' //'
`-----------------------' (_))
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Leo F. Doyle" <doyle(at)indy.net> |
please unsubscribe me from this list.
thanks,
Leo
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool - adjustable plungers |
I just looked at my US Industrial catalog; no luck finding it on page 28.
The issue I have is #14, the '95 issue with a blue cover and a big "40"
under the US Industrial logo in the upper left corner.
>Randall and RV-listers,
>
> The new US Industrial Tool & Supply catalog shows an almost
>identical device on Page 28 (5052ADJ - $62). Theirs has the base end
>tapped, and the plunger end threaded.
>
> This may be an easier alternative for those of us without machinist
>friends :^) The one restriction they quote is that the C-yoke base must
>have at least a 1 inch thick base.
>
>
> ... keep on squeezing ... Gil Alexander
>
>PS ... just noticed it in their catalog, I don't have one ....
>
>
>>Several people asked me about the adjustable pneumatic squeezer
>>plunger I mentioned in an earlier post. First off, the friend I
>>mentioned works as a tool maker at a local company, and he just
>>makes odds and ends like this for local builders sometimes on his
>>lunch hour at work, but he won't make anything to sell since he's
>>using the company's tools. Also the funny thing is while my plunger
>>works great in my squeezer, it won't work in another guy's
>>squeezer of the same manufacture. I think it has to do with the
>>fact that his yoke moves a bit more than mine under pressure, and
>>perhaps the plunger binds in the hole. The point being that they
>>may need to be custom fit to your squeezer.
>>
>>But I can describe it anyhow for those that want to try making
>>one. Here's some crude ascii artwork of how it looks:
>> _____
>> | |
>> | o |
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> | |
>> | | <-- plunger drilled and tapped for threaded shaft
>> | |
>> |_____|
>> |===|
>> |===| <-- threaded shaft
>> |===|
>> |===|
>> |===|
>> |===|
>> |===| .----.
>> .-------. <-- base welded --> /| |\ <-- base squared off to more or
>> |_-----_| to end of shaft ||____|| less match shape of race. This
>> ^ ^ is done to keep the threaded
>> |___ ground out to fit cam ____| shaft from rotating when the
>> plunger is screwed in and out
>>
>>Randall Henderson
>>RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
The tipup is very nice for visibility, although I've flown the slider too,
and you get used to the bow. If you have the gas springs on your tipup, you
MAY taxi with it fully open and not worry about wind, just visibility in
front of you! I do it and make S turns to keep from running into something.
I have thought about installing a strip of plexi into the glare shield to
look thru when taxi-ing. A point to consider is whether you have a 6 or 6A.
On the 6, if you open the canopy and there is a lot of water on it (such as
after a rain) you will get a lot of it inside and on the instruments. I
installed a small gutter ? on to the front of the sub-panel which helps a
lot. It's not so much a problem on the 6A. I like the appearance of both
canopies, preferring the tipup. If I built another, it would be a slider in
spite of the loss of access to the instruments.
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up Canopy Construction Question |
Van's manual is pretty good in the area of fitting the canopy! It really
pays to spend some time with it and have a very clear picture in mind about
the cause and effect of your actions in fitting it.
He says to leave 1" extra skin when you make the first cut. I recommend
about 3 to 4 inches, because you might need it because you Might have cut too
much off the rear of the plexi. Also, I have cut 2 of them by now and found
in both cases I needed to slide it forward to get a good fit (meaning a
narrow front retaining strip, which gives the best over-the-nose visibility).
This wasn't apparent until I fitted the sides tightly against the side of
the canopy frame, which caused the front to bow away from the glare shield!
You might have noticed that the plexi must negotiate a skin level change as
it rounds the corner from the glare shield to the side skins on the frame.
In this area of the frame there is a depression which will be covered up by
the glare shield skin if you just wrap it around. Instead, you should cut it
away substantially so the plexi will drop down into it and end up at the same
level as the side skin. During finish you can fill this area with bondo etc.
to help you to get a smooth contour when you do the front cuff.
Regarding riveting the rear skin, (I did mine in 1990) I think I had that
skin finish riveted except for the intersection with the bow, which was
cleco'd to allow later fit-up with the canopy side skins. BTW, I had to make
new side skins for the canopy in order to get the fit I wanted, i.e. 1.) long
enough to fit up to the fuselage skin, 2.) wide enough to overlap the
longerons by 1/2 inch, and to transition nicely with the skin in front of the
canopy.
A convenient way to cut the plexi is to stack large pieces of foam on to a
SMALL table and rest the plexi open side on to the foam such that it is
stable, and gives you room to work. You will need help to catch the rear
piece when it separates. For later cuts you just plop the front or back
piece on to the foam (pedestal) and make your cuts.
Jim Stugart
Austin Tx.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | Re:sooo close/Van's WWW Update |
This will address many of the questions I have received recently about
Van's on World Wide Web.
> Yesterday I checked out Van's web page via the AOL browser ( the only
> reason I still have an AOL account) and was delighted to learn of the
> upcoming RV-8 pictures.
They are still upcoming.
> Much to my chagrin I had error messages around all the pic..bummer!
If there is an RV-8 picture there, it's news to me.
> Could someone, anyone e-mail a gif of the RV-8. It doesn't really
> matter what format, JPEG, BITMAP, whatever I have the technology.
Me too!!! If anyone has a picture of the RV-8 digitized, PLEASE send it
to me (jbenedic(at)uofport.edu), it will get on MUCH faster that way.
I am currently running 1026 messages behind, and I don't have a single
minute of free time. I wish to thank everyone who has sent a response to
me about the web page. So far, we have feedback from about 60. Keep it
going! For those of you who asked a question, I'll get to it ASAP.
Jeremy jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
Van's WebManager
http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Jig Info Needed RV6 |
Chet,
In the Frank Justice Manual, he notes: 108 " (RV-6) as the spacing between
the inside surfaces of the uprghts. Spacing between inside of crossarms 105"
Min. This info is located in the Wing Rib Preparation section, paragraph
"Wing Jig Setup".
Have fun building the Jig.
Dick Slavens Napa, CA
RV-6 plans on the table, but waiting for RV-8.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: My Favorite Tool - adjustable plungers |
Sorry guys ... brain (eyesight?) fade :^) ... it's Catalog 14, BUT page 23 ...
... Gil Alexander ... will look closer next time ... :^)
>I just looked at my US Industrial catalog; no luck finding it on page 28.
>The issue I have is #14, the '95 issue with a blue cover and a big "40"
>under the US Industrial logo in the upper left corner.
>
>>Randall and RV-listers,
>>
>> The new US Industrial Tool & Supply catalog shows an almost
>>identical device on Page 28 (5052ADJ - $62). Theirs has the base end
>>tapped, and the plunger end threaded.
>>
>> This may be an easier alternative for those of us without machinist
>>friends :^) The one restriction they quote is that the C-yoke base must
>>have at least a 1 inch thick base.
>>
>>
>> ... keep on squeezing ... Gil Alexander
>>
>>PS ... just noticed it in their catalog, I don't have one ....
>>
>>
>>>Several people asked me about the adjustable pneumatic squeezer
>>>plunger I mentioned in an earlier post. First off, the friend I
>>>mentioned works as a tool maker at a local company, and he just
>>>makes odds and ends like this for local builders sometimes on his
>>>lunch hour at work, but he won't make anything to sell since he's
>>>using the company's tools. Also the funny thing is while my plunger
>>>works great in my squeezer, it won't work in another guy's
>>>squeezer of the same manufacture. I think it has to do with the
>>>fact that his yoke moves a bit more than mine under pressure, and
>>>perhaps the plunger binds in the hole. The point being that they
>>>may need to be custom fit to your squeezer.
>>>
>>>But I can describe it anyhow for those that want to try making
>>>one. Here's some crude ascii artwork of how it looks:
>>> _____
>>> | |
>>> | o |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | |
>>> | | <-- plunger drilled and tapped for threaded shaft
>>> | |
>>> |_____|
>>> |===|
>>> |===| <-- threaded shaft
>>> |===|
>>> |===|
>>> |===|
>>> |===|
>>> |===| .----.
>>> .-------. <-- base welded --> /| |\ <-- base squared off to more or
>>> |_-----_| to end of shaft ||____|| less match shape of race.
>>>This
>>> ^ ^ is done to keep the threaded
>>> |___ ground out to fit cam ____| shaft from rotating when the
>>> plunger is screwed in and out
>>>
>>>Randall Henderson
>>>RV-6
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Actually, I think the tip-up looks better. In spite of that, I'm going
with the slider. I don't mind the reduced visibility. It's true that
compared to the tip-up the visibility is reduced, but compared to most
production planes it's great! My reasons include:
- Cool taxiing with your arm on the sill
- Access to baggage compartment seems better (to me)
- Center support strut makes a great "hang on!" handle
in turbulence over the rockies :-)
One disadvantage I'm not sure anyone mentioned is that it can
be difficult to get a good seal from the wind.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | re: center beam fuse jig |
>Dick Steffens asked;
>
>Has anyone used or know of anyone who has used a fuse jig with a single
center >beam that can be rotated like Van shows as a alternate type of jig?
I used the center beam method on my RV-3 fuselage. It took a full week of
checking and realigning the bulkheads and longerons before everything
stabilized so I could add the first skin. (At that time, there were no other
options
shown by Van.)
I have a wood jig left over from John Peaslee's RV-4 project, which I plan to
use
for my RV-4.
Jim Ayers
RV-3 (Photographed by Flug magazine last week)
RV-4 On hold for final touches to RV-3, again.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
My limited experience is that the tipup is very hot, even with
the canopy cracked open, that was in Oregon. Here in New Mexico it would
be unbearable. The RV-6 I was flying did not have adequate vents, this
may help a lot. Two RV-6s that I know of have had constant radio
problems with the tipup canopy due to moisture driping off the canopy
into the instrument area. One guy told me even with a canopy cover on he
still had a lot of water after a heavy rain. This may have been fixed by
Vans, not sure though.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Michael Graves wrote:
> Hi guys,
> At the risk a sparking a controversy, I would like to see some opinions
> on the slider vs. tip-up canopies. Personnaly, I think the slider looks better
> on the ramp, but what are the pros and cons of the two methods?
>
>
> Mike Graves
>
> RV-6A on kitchen table
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CORVETTE(at)KGV1.bems.boeing.com |
FROM: Bela P. Havasreti
Subject:
Hello everyone!
I am a new subscriber to this mailing list. I have a commercial license with
an instrument rating and have a little over 300 hours total time, & about 1/2
of that is in "high" performance aircraft (I put "high" in quotes because my
HP time is all in Wichita hardware!). I usually fly a Cardinal RG or a
Cutlass RG at the club I belong to. I've been seriously considering building
an RV-6, but I've heard rumors about an RV-8. I saw a blurb or two in the
trade rags about the RV-8 but no pictures yet. What's it look like? How about
performance parameters? Anyone have any BMP's, GIF's or JPEG's of the RV-8
yet? Maybe uploaded to an anonymous FTP site where I can download them!!??
In any event, I'm looking forward to learning as much as I can about the RV
series aircraft.
| Check six....
(O) Bela P. Havasreti
X--------( . )--------X 931-3205 M/S 5C-15
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
I got my engine running on the RV-4 but the fuel pressure is reading over
10 psi (the gauge is pegged).
I installed an AC diaphram type fuel pump on his engine (O-320-E2D) as it
didn't have one before (came from -172).
I assumed that all the AC type pumps were pretty much the same - are there
varying models with high pressure for pressure carbs and Fuel injection?
If not, any ideas on how to get this value down?
Thanks.
RB
RV-4 - engine runnning N144KT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rivet squeeeezer |
On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Michael Graves wrote:
> I've been following the discussion on rivet squeezers.
> I'm convinced that they are a great tool, but what is it used
>for and how much does it cost? >
The pneumatic squeezer, like a hand squeezer, can only be used to
set rivets that are near the edge of the material.
When assembling the skeleton of almost any RV component (like the
Horizontal stab, for instance), the entire skeleton is held
together with 1/8 inch universal head rivets. All of those rivets are
almost always within an inch or two of the edge of the material
(the rib or spar). I like to use a rivet squeezer for rivets because:
1. It is quieter.
2. If you have a bunch of rivets to do, you use the first rivet to get the
squeezer adjusted to set the rivet properly, and then just go down
the line squeezing them.
I *would* use the hand squeezer on the 1/8 inch rivets, but my
scrawny little arms just can't hand-squeeze rivets that big. Hence,
the pneumatic squeezer.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool |
On Tue, 22 Aug 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
> I'm a little confused. I thought hand squeezing was easy
> and gave great results.
When it comes to the 1/8 inch unniversal head rivets, my
scrawny little arms just don't have the strength to hand-squeeze them.
:-)
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool |
> Okay, everyone seems to agree that pneumatic rivet squeezers
> are cool. Now, let's talk about what they cost!
>
> My Avery catalog lists one for $320.00...
Yea, that's a lot of money in one hunk. But I looked at it like I look
at the price of any good: spread out over the life of the tool, it is
a bargain compared to the aggravation of doing it any other way.
At least for me, driving those 1/8 inch rivets by myself is *hard*.
It is difficult to hold the gun straight, hold the bucking bar,
possibly hold the material, and end up with consistently good-
looking rivets. If I had someone helping me, who could
for instance hold the bucking bar, so that I could concentrate
on just handling the rivet gun, I could drive a perfect rivet every time.
But I work alone in the garage at night. And this is my *hobby*. I
want as few aggrivations as possible.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6A - Almost Convinced |
RK> Thanks for all your words of encouragement. I am almost convinced that
RK> the RV is the plane for me. The only thing holding me back now is the
RK> price of the engine. Does anyone know what the cost of a half time
RK> 0-360 is? What is the cost of the OEM engines from VAN's?
RK> How much of the RV6A can be built by one person? I understand that the
RK> wings require two persons to skin. Where can one buy the basic tools,
RK> ie. bucking bars, etc.? I there a starters kit that one can buy that
RK> contains most of the necessary tools?
Roli:
I don't profess to be an engine expert, but from what I have seen in
Trade-A-Plane a 1/2 time 0-380 would probably run around $10,000. I believe
Van is charging around $18,000 for a new one. I would check with Van for sure
on that.
At OSH I talked with Superior Air Parts and they are planning to produce a
"kit" 0-360 in the next 6-8 months. They currently produce nearly all major
components for this engine. They are working on the crank and case. This
would be an "experimental" engine as far as certification is concerned. I have
no idea of the price, but my gut feeling is around $12000 (a very wild guess).
I'm sure they would sell like hot cakes as good used Lycomings are rare and
increasingly expensive.
One person can build an RV, but there are times when 2 is a necessity.
Probably 90% can be built alone.
Avery Tools and Cleaveland Tools are tops. Avery has starter kits at $427 and
$999 which are very complete. Avery's phone # is 817-439-8400. Cleaveland's
number is 515-432-6794 or E-mail at cat3tools(at)aol.com
Good Luck,
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hulse <mikeh(at)zipper.netcom.com> |
Here's the scoop...
My father visited me from Missouri last week (I'm in Colorado) and,
of course, I used the opportunity for the free labor on my RV-6
empennage. I could see the fire in his eyes as the pile of aluminum
started to resemble a vertical stabilizer. That's when comments like
"If I sold the Cadillac it would make room in the garage" started
popping up.
Thus the question... Is there anyone, or does anyone know anyone, in
middle Missouri (Columbia/Boonville area) that likes giving prospective
RV builders rides? I think that may put him past the point of no return.
Please e-mail me directly at: mike.hulse(at)symbios.com or my father
at: ccjazz(at)mizzou1.missouri.edu to avoid filling everyone's
mailboxes.
Thanks, Mike
RV-6(A)
Horizontal and Vertical Stabilizers finished... Rudder in the works...
Wings soon on the way.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
| Subject: | Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... |
Hi,
I have also been following this thread with interest. Just
the other night I squeezed some 1/8" rivets in the rear spar with
my hand squeezer. I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. If
it was just one ounce harder to to - I swear - it just wouldn't
happen. As it was I had to squeeze it a couple of times to get
it all the way done. Then rest and catch my breath. The next
day both my hands and arms were sore.
So, if I decided to spend the bucks, what do I really need?
Looking at the Avery catalog, I see that it comes with 1 1/2",
2 1/2" and 3" yokes. The bigger yokes cost more. Which size is
the best? Also, they list set holders and set holder springs.
What are these?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel pressure |
> I got my engine running on the RV-4 but the fuel pressure is reading
> over 10 psi (the gauge is pegged).
>
> I installed an AC diaphram type fuel pump on his engine (O-320-E2D) as
> it didn't have one before (came from -172).
>
> I assumed that all the AC type pumps were pretty much the same - are
> there varying models with high pressure for pressure carbs and
> Fuel injection?
>
> If not, any ideas on how to get this value down?
First be sure it's not the guage.
I know squat about fuel pumps, but if there's some sort of pressure
adjustment on it (A bypass valve?) make sure it isn't screwed shut.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Fuel pressure (fwd) |
Yes, there are different fuel pumps. There are about 3 different types,
1 for foat carb, 1 for fuel injected systems and one for the PS5 type
pressure carbs. You need the proper one.
Get the number off of yours (stamped on the flange at the top)
and then find out from a parts book which one you need.
You can also look in trade a plane and call one of the Accessory OH shops.
There is one in the south east that has a large add (Aero Accessories
or some such name) and they list a number of parts and have good prices.
Give them a call to find out which part you need. I don't have the
numbers here at work.
I don't know what pressure the float pump needs but I think it is
only 5 to 7 PSI.
Herman
> From: fore.com!rbibb(at)matronics.com (Richard Bibb)
> Subject: Fuel pressure
>
> I got my engine running on the RV-4 but the fuel pressure is reading over
> 10 psi (the gauge is pegged).
>
> I installed an AC diaphram type fuel pump on his engine (O-320-E2D) as it
> didn't have one before (came from -172).
>
> I assumed that all the AC type pumps were pretty much the same - are there
> varying models with high pressure for pressure carbs and Fuel injection?
>
> If not, any ideas on how to get this value down?
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: my favorite tool |
Several people have mentioned using pneumatic squeezers to squeeze 1/8"
rivets. With my squeezer anyway, I've found it doesn't really have
enough power to squeeze the longer 1/8" rivets. It does 3.5s and 4s ok,
but the 5s and 6s it usually can't do, even with my regulator turned up
to 120 or so. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm wondering if there
may be some binding or something having to do with my fancy adjustable
plunger. Or is this just the limit of the tool. I normally use the 2
1/2 inch yoke.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... |
Text item:
Cheryl Sanchez bemoans:
> Just the other night I squeezed some 1/8" rivets in the rear spar with
> my hand squeezer. I thought I was gonna have a heart attack.
I don't have a pneumatic squeezer, but I do have a fairly easy way to squeeze
1/8" rivets -- a larger hand squeezer! I have a large Roper Whitney squeezer
that I only use for 1/8" rivets. It's big and unwieldy, but it takes little
squeezing effort. I don't know if I'd buy it again though because I can still
squeeze 'em fairly easily with the Tatco (years of rock climbing no doubt
helps).
Cal
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea...
From: BayNetworks.com!csanchez(at)matronics.com (Cheryl Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 16:23:18 EDT
.1/SMI-4.1)
I-4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Oliver <75274.3426(at)compuserve.com> |
Please unsubscribe me. Thanx. Bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | apps(at)indirect.com (Microchip Technology) |
| Subject: | HS tip ribs and dimpling |
OK, I give. After all the discussion on here about dimpling vs.
countersinking I decided to dimple the HS skins. How close to the leading
edge of the HS should the last rivit be? I ASSuMEd that at least one rivit
should go into the forward end of the tip ribs (past the cut for curvature.
I attempted to use the Avery tool (the Arbor thing) to dimple all of the
holes that could not be reached with the hand dimpler, and I have managed to
end up making scrap material out of my one of my HS skins. The one closest
to the leading edge (due to trying to hold up the other side of the way and
fighting the pre-bent skin) ended up bending the skin, and I also let the
skin slip and dimpled a new hole in the skin (yes, of course it is on the
top side).
Has anyone acutally dimpled the entire HS or has everyone assumed that it
would be easier? If so, how did you do the holes within ~2" of the leading
without either taking out the pre-bend or messing the whole thing up? Maybe
dimple all but the ones close to the leading edge and countersink them?
Although this is very discouraging, when I order the new skin tomorrow, I
think I'll also order the wing kit, this is only part of the building fun.
Actually I have enjoyed it even more than I had thought I would, and am
looking forward to the rest of it (especially assembling the whole thing in
the front yard before taking it to the airport and watching the look on the
neighbor's faces).
Oh well, at least I already have the ribs drilled and I can back drill the
skin through them (sure hope I don't mess up the whole HS skeleton).
Any thoughts on this? Also on how not to leave the "smile" from the
dimpling tool around the hole?
Scott Fink
RV-6 #24237 HS skeleton complete, one skin WAS drilled, skeleton dimpled,
the next one will be MUCH better.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.microchip.com (scott fink) |
| Subject: | HS tip ribs and dimpling |
OK, I give. After all the discussion on here about dimpling vs.
countersinking I decided to dimple the HS skins. How close to the
leading edge of the HS should the last rivit be? I ASSuMEd that at
least one rivit should go into the forward end of the tip ribs (past
the cut for curvature.
I attempted to use the Avery tool (the Arbor thing) to dimple all of
the holes that could not be reached with the hand dimpler, and I have
managed to end up making scrap material out of my one of my HS skins.
The one closest to the leading edge (due to trying to hold up the
other side of the way and fighting the pre-bent skin) ended up bending
the skin, and I also let the skin slip and dimpled a new hole in the
skin (yes, of course it is on the top side).
Has anyone acutally dimpled the entire HS or has everyone assumed that
it would be easier? If so, how did you do the holes within ~2" of the
leading without either taking out the pre-bend or messing the whole
thing up? Maybe dimple all but the ones close to the leading edge and
countersink them?
Although this is very discouraging, when I order the new skin
tomorrow, I think I'll also order the wing kit, this is only part of
the building fun. Actually I have enjoyed it even more than I had
thought I would, and am looking forward to the rest of it (especially
assembling the whole thing in the front yard before taking it to the
airport and watching the look on the neighbor's faces).
Oh well, at least I already have the ribs drilled and I can back drill
the skin through them (sure hope I don't mess up the whole HS
skeleton).
Any thoughts on this? Also on how not to leave the "smile" from the
dimpling tool around the hole?
Scott Fink
RV-6 #24237 HS skeleton complete, one skin WAS drilled, skeleton
dimpled, the next one will be MUCH better.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.microchip.com (scott fink) |
| Subject: | Watch them parts! |
sfink(at)ccmail.microchip.com (scott fink)
I received one HS408 which was 3/4" shorter than the other (~9 1/2 vs
10 1/4") in my empannage kit which I ordered at Sun-n-Fun this year
for the RV6. While trying to figure out which was the correct one I
noticed that there is a dimension missing on drawing 8a in the
instruction book. The dimension for HS607 overall length is missing
which does not allow an exact dimension for the HS608 to be
calculated, hopefully this will appear in the RVator soon. From the
overall length, however the best guess is that the longer one was
correct.
The guy at Van's was incredulous and said that this couldn't happen as
they are all stamped in the same die. After convincing him this
actually did happen he said that it must be a mismarked RV4 part and
would send the part out today or tomorrow (that's GREAT customer
service, I knew I bought this kit for a reason).
I've been real happy with the quality of the kit and instructions
(although Frank's instructions and George and Becky's video have been
a real help) and am now happy with the service.
The moral here is to check EVERY part for correctness before spending
a large amount of time on it, I'm sure glad I noticed this while
marking the rivet positions for straightining. Anyone can make a
mistake, and this is no worse than I have already done (can you say
"re-order parts"?). But from now on, I'll check the dimensions on all
parts before doing ANY work on them, I'd rather make all of the
mistakes myself.
How many other instances of this have happened to others?
Gotta go and make sure that the rear and front spars dimension out...
Scott Fink
RV6 #24237, sure glad I didn't rivet that rascal on, must be a bear to
drill out rivets with a 12" bit...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | apps(at)indirect.com (Microchip Technology) |
| Subject: | Watch them parts! |
I received one HS408 which was 3/4" shorter than the other (~9 1/2 vs 10
1/4") in my empannage kit which I ordered at Sun-n-Fun this year for the
RV6. While trying to figure out which was the correct one I noticed that
there is a dimension missing on drawing 8a in the instruction book. The
dimension for HS607 overall length is missing which does not allow an exact
dimension for the HS608 to be calculated, hopefully this will appear in the
RVator soon. From the overall length, however the best guess is that the
longer one was correct.
The guy at Van's was incredulous and said that this couldn't happen as they
are all stamped in the same die. After convincing him this actually did
happen he said that it must be a mismarked RV4 part and would send the part
out today or tomorrow (that's GREAT customer service, I knew I bought this
kit for a reason).
I've been real happy with the quality of the kit and instructions (although
Frank's instructions and George and Becky's video have been a real help) and
am now happy with the service.
The moral here is to check EVERY part for correctness before spending a
large amount of time on it, I'm sure glad I noticed this while marking the
rivet positions for straightining. Anyone can make a mistake, and this is
no worse than I have already done (can you say "re-order parts"?). But from
now on, I'll check the dimensions on all parts before doing ANY work on
them, I'd rather make all of the mistakes myself.
How many other instances of this have happened to others?
Gotta go and make sure that the rear and front spars dimension out...
Scott Fink
RV6 #24237, sure glad I didn't rivet that rascal on, must be a bear to drill
out rivets with a 12" bit...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... |
On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Cheryl Sanchez wrote:
> So, if I decided to spend the bucks, what do I really need?
> Looking at the Avery catalog, I see that it comes with 1 1/2",
> 2 1/2" and 3" yokes. The bigger yokes cost more. Which size is
> the best? Also, they list set holders and set holder springs.
> What are these?
The 2-1/2" yoke will cover about 90 percent of the job. As for
the set holder and springs, if you buy it from Avery, profess
ignorance and he will put together what you need.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: my favorite tool |
On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
> Several people have mentioned using pneumatic squeezers to squeeze 1/8"
> rivets. With my squeezer anyway, I've found it doesn't really have
> enough power to squeeze the longer 1/8" rivets.
At least in my squeezer, all the power is really in the last 1/16 inch
of travel. If your adjustable set holder is a bit too long, then that
would cause it. I just finsihed squeezing some -7 rivets with no
problems.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up Canopy Construction Question |
Dear Gil,
I opted to overhang the longerons to reduce wind noise, reject incoming
water, and for appearance (a nice even line which covers up anything
unsightly on the "sill"). When fitting the canopy frame to the airframe, I
bowed the bottom of the frame outward just enough so the overhang skin clears
the longeron by 1/16+. On finish I installed sticky-back felt on the overlap
skin. This guards against scratching the fuselage when opening or closing
the canopy. An added feature I did not anticipate is that it provides an
alignment when closing the canopy! BTW the front skin on the canopy frame is
wide enough to enable a good match line with the skin edge of the overlapped
side skins.
Your second question. I made the new side skins long enough (fitted, then
cut) to reduce the gap to the aft skin to a minimum. There has to be some
gap because the canopy is still moving on an arc at the point of closing. An
overlap fairing in that
location would work, but personally I don't think it would look very good. ?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Tip-up Canopy Construction Question |
Gil
I chose to maximize visibility and have built the tip-up version.
I rather like the squared off corner on the aft lower corner of the
slider so I modified the turtledeck cut out. The plastic followed the
curve of the metal without any difficulty and the end result looks
great.
Trimming the front of the canopy will result in it pivoting around the
roll-over structure and snugging up against the turtledeck. The plastic
is very flexible at the centreline and will easily fit well there. Pay
careful attention to how it fits to the skin through the curvature on the
corners. The moulding had a bit of a reverse curve or sag in the area of
the roll-over structure brace. A small piece of nylon riveted to the
brace fixed that up.
It is a good idea to leave extra material on the turtledeck skin. I
decided on the square corner modification after the skin was riveted.
There was no difficulty trimming it.
I riveted the turtledeck before starting the canopy. It should work out
the same if the structure were just clecoed. There were a few areas where
clecos are advantageous, typically the first foot aft of the roll-over
structure.
When the canopy is finished put the aft section away until there is
nothing left to install in the fuselage. The accessibility will be
appreciated. The same is true for the top forward fuselage skin.
The gas struts on the forward section of the canopy tend to shove the part
forward when it is closed. I put two bolts into the tooling holes of the
forward canopy frame. They contact a reinforced pad on the instrument
sub-panel and may be adjusted with washers. Now I can control the gap
between the canopy frame and the fixed structure.
The gas struts do a good job holding the canopy rigid when open. I did
not find a need to add fiberglass to the forward frame. If I did, I
would limit it to the area between the hinges. The area outboard
appears stiff enough.
The best way to close the canopy is to grasp the corner and pull out and
down. Pulling straight down twists it. This becomes obvious after trying
it once or twice.
All that hair raising work cutting and drilling the plexiglass is topped
off a rather nasty bit of fiberglass work at the canopy leading edge.
Now that it is done I can relax.
Enjoy
Dave Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Tip-up Canopy Construction Question
Date: 23/08/95 20:45
For you guys who have installed a tip-up canopy...
Van says to cut the aft turtle deck skin for the canopy about 1
inch undersize in the area over the baggage compartment.
Questions .... did you do this?
...Was the final dimension close to the curve given in the plans or not?
...Did you rivet this skin on before canopy fitting or not?
...Any other hints??
... thanks in advance ... Gil Alexander .. fitting aft turtle deck skin.
It really looks like an
airplane now!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.Microchip.COM |
| Subject: | HS tip ribs and dimpling |
OK, I give. After all the discussion on here about dimpling vs.
countersinking I decided to dimple the HS skins. How close to the
leading edge of the HS should the last rivit be? I ASSuMEd that at
least one rivit should go into the forward end of the tip ribs (past
the cut for curvature.
I attempted to use the Avery tool (the Arbor thing) to dimple all of
the holes that could not be reached with the hand dimpler, and I have
managed to end up making scrap material out of my one of my HS skins.
The one closest to the leading edge (due to trying to hold up the
other side of the way and fighting the pre-bent skin) ended up bending
the skin, and I also let the skin slip and dimpled a new hole in the
skin (yes, of course it is on the top side).
Has anyone acutally dimpled the entire HS or has everyone assumed that
it would be easier? If so, how did you do the holes within ~2" of the
leading without either taking out the pre-bend or messing the whole
thing up? Maybe dimple all but the ones close to the leading edge and
countersink them?
Although this is very discouraging, when I order the new skin
tomorrow, I think I'll also order the wing kit, this is only part of
the building fun. Actually I have enjoyed it even more than I had
thought I would, and am looking forward to the rest of it (especially
assembling the whole thing in the front yard before taking it to the
airport and watching the look on the neighbor's faces).
Oh well, at least I already have the ribs drilled and I can back drill
the skin through them (sure hope I don't mess up the whole HS
skeleton).
Any thoughts on this? Also on how not to leave the "smile" from the
dimpling tool around the hole?
Scott Fink
RV-6 #24237 HS skeleton complete, one skin WAS drilled, skeleton
dimpled, the next one will be MUCH better.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.Microchip.COM |
| Subject: | Watch them parts! |
I received one HS408 which was 3/4" shorter than the other (~9 1/2 vs
10 1/4") in my empannage kit which I ordered at Sun-n-Fun this year
for the RV6. While trying to figure out which was the correct one I
noticed that there is a dimension missing on drawing 8a in the
instruction book. The dimension for HS607 overall length is missing
which does not allow an exact dimension for the HS608 to be
calculated, hopefully this will appear in the RVator soon. From the
overall length, however the best guess is that the longer one was
correct.
The guy at Van's was incredulous and said that this couldn't happen as
they are all stamped in the same die. After convincing him this
actually did happen he said that it must be a mismarked RV4 part and
would send the part out today or tomorrow (that's GREAT customer
service, I knew I bought this kit for a reason).
I've been real happy with the quality of the kit and instructions
(although Frank's instructions and George and Becky's video have been
a real help) and am now happy with the service.
The moral here is to check EVERY part for correctness before spending
a large amount of time on it, I'm sure glad I noticed this while
marking the rivet positions for straightining. Anyone can make a
mistake, and this is no worse than I have already done (can you say
"re-order parts"?). But from now on, I'll check the dimensions on all
parts before doing ANY work on them, I'd rather make all of the
mistakes myself.
How many other instances of this have happened to others?
Gotta go and make sure that the rear and front spars dimension out...
Scott Fink
RV6 #24237, sure glad I didn't rivet that rascal on, must be a bear to
drill out rivets with a 12" bit...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... |
You guys and your Pneumatic Squeezers. I'm building a -4, getting ready to
rivet the bottom skins on the fuse. I have to say this.
In the whole project,so far, I can't see where the cost to value pay off is in
this tool. First, to date the only place I can recall where I would have really
wanted one was when dimpling the wing frame work. This process took all of two
evenings and I complained but survived. Second, I can't recall more than 200 to
300 rivets that this tool could have been used anyway. Let's see .... $300+ for
the tool equates to about a dollar a rivet. I'm sure using this tool is nice
but, unless one has deep pockets or a physical limitation, I could think of a
few other places in this project to spend that $300+.
Knowing what I know now, if I were a new builder, I would concentrate on the
project at hand and not get off on exotic tools until I had more experience.
Just one opinion.
Mike Wilson -4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | dimpling HS skin |
Scott,
I dimpled my HS skins using the Avery tool anyplace I couldn't reach with
the Tatco hand squeezer. Like you, I typically have one rivet ahead of the
slot in the tip rib.
Like you, I also mangled one of the holes. Fortunately it was on the bottom.
This happened when I tried to do the dimpling by myself. This is where you
went wrong. I had my wife help me and it went much better. You really need
3 hands to dimple all of the holes. Yes, you do bend the skin back a bit to
get at the holes near the leading edge but it doesn't take a permanent set or
anything.
One last point. If I have a problem and am unsure of whether it is acceptable
or not, I ALWAYS send mail to Van's and ask. It's good to get the opinion of
other builders but you should also get the word from the factory too.
Good luck
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... -Reply |
You may want to concider using your rivet
gun and bucking bar - They can also be
used.
Not to say that the squeezer is a bad idea.
>>> Cheryl Sanchez
08/24/95 02:23pm
>>>
Hi,
I have also been following this thread
with interest. Just the other night I
squeezed some 1/8" rivets in the rear spar
with my hand squeezer. I thought I was
gonna have a heart attack. If it was just
one ounce harder to to - I swear - it just
wouldn't happen. As it was I had to
squeeze it a couple of times to get it all
the way done. Then rest and catch my
breath. The next day both my hands and
arms were sore.
So, if I decided to spend the bucks,
what do I really need?
Looking at the Avery catalog, I see that it
comes with 1 1/2",
2 1/2" and 3" yokes. The bigger yokes cost
more. Which size is the best? Also, they
list set holders and set holder springs.
What are these?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: my favorite tool -Reply |
It may be a limitation of the yoke size of
the squeezer. Bob Avery told me that the
unit develops most of its power at the end
of the stroke.
Jim
>>> Randall Henderson
08/24/95 04:31pm >>>
Several people have mentioned using
pneumatic squeezers to squeeze 1/8" rivets.
With my squeezer anyway, I've found it
doesn't really have enough power to squeeze
the longer 1/8" rivets. It does 3.5s and 4s
ok, but the 5s and 6s it usually can't do,
even with my regulator turned up to 120 or
so. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm
wondering if there may be some binding or
something having to do with my fancy
adjustable plunger. Or is this just the
limit of the tool. I normally use the 2
1/2 inch yoke.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | 3/32" Flush Pop Rivets |
In case any of you are looking for 3/32" flush pop-rivets for those
hard-to-buck skinning applications, B & F A/C Supply (815 469-2473)sells
them (P/N AK32B2).
Greg Tipsword
Aligning wing trailing edge surfaces.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Download Woes! (Long Distance) |
It appears to be easier for Aussies to get the supplemental instructions by
mail. It only costs me $1.32 to send a 3.5" diskette there ( I will accept
payment in the form of suggestions, error corrections, and tips that will help
other builders). The easiest format for me to send is Word for Windows version
2.0 on 3.5" diskette. Send your request to me, frank(at)ssd.intel.com
Please state what model you are building and what stage you are at.
I expect to be sending revisions to John to put on the web server within a week
or so; the revisions are mostly minor, and new information will include the
remainder of the fuselage kit work.
Frank J.
>Hi Ken,
>
>Here are some suggestions.
>
>1. Try downloading the individual files. They comprise the "entire manual"
>section and are listed below the "entire document" section. You may have
>better luck transfering smaller amounts of info at a time.
>
>2. Write to Frank Justice. I have copied him on this note. He may be
>able to mail you the files if you send him postage fees.
>
>thanks,
>John
>>G'day from Downunder. Melbourne Australia.
>>A Friend(s) of mine who is building RV4's don't have CompuServe or Internet
>>ability
>>so I'm downloading information for them.
>>
>>Troubles........!
>>
>>Due to Network delays/congestion/ etc. some of the longer files never make it!
>>
>>i.e. The Entire Manual. We have tried for 5 days and 10 hours of connect time
>>but the system/net locks / crashes and we never get past about 30% download.
>>(I've experienced this before with other sites in US and Canada ! Also when
>>the equipment is Apple Mac and has to be converted).
>>
>>Could we purchase (have posted) some of these files on 3 inch disks ?
>>Either the actual Web pages or in W.Proc file format ? (Word or WordPerfect)
>>
>>Pls advise....
>>
>>Tks. (Biggles is a pilot also, PA 32-300R but yet to have my first
>RV ride !)
>>
>>Regards..........
>>Ken CUSACK.
>>Ph/Fax (03) 9551 1897
>>Mobile 015 820 609
>>5 Glenelg Crt, DINGLEY. Vic. 3172 Australia.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Watch them parts! |
Scott Fink Writes:
>
> I received one HS408 which was 3/4" shorter than the other (~9 1/2 vs
> 10 1/4") in my empannage kit which I ordered at Sun-n-Fun this year
Scott,
As of this writing, we have recieved 3 copies of this message under
different addresses. Please check your mail system to stop multiple copies
from being mailed. We do appreciate your comments and participation, but three
copies of the same message is abit much :-)
Mike Graves
RV-6A on kitchen table
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Pneumatic squeezer flame war (grin) |
Mike:
Listen to you -- you're the one who told me what a bear it was to
dimple all those ribs, so I went out and borrowed a squeezer from Art
Chard to do the job, and was hooked. So I blame YOU that I have one
in the first place!
You are right that it is certainly a luxury, and by no means am I
saying it's a "must have" item. But I really do like it and am glad I
bought it. But only 200-300 rivets? HA! I squeezed 200 rivets on my
flaps and flap braces alone! $1 per rivet -- pshaw! Don't the dimples
count? :-)
As far as the expense -- if I can bring myself to part with it when the
project's done, I should be able to recover most of the cost.
Go ahead, stay ignorant, see if _I_ care. :-) :-) :-)
Randall
> Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:24:00 PDT
> From: James Mike Wilson <ccm2.hf.intel.com!James_Mike_Wilson(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re[2]: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea...
>
> You guys and your Pneumatic Squeezers. I'm building a -4, getting ready to
> rivet the bottom skins on the fuse. I have to say this.
>
> In the whole project,so far, I can't see where the cost to value pay off is in
> this tool. First, to date the only place I can recall where I would have really
> wanted one was when dimpling the wing frame work. This process took all of two
> evenings and I complained but survived. Second, I can't recall more than 200
to
> 300 rivets that this tool could have been used anyway. Let's see .... $300+
for
> the tool equates to about a dollar a rivet. I'm sure using this tool is nice
> but, unless one has deep pockets or a physical limitation, I could think of a
> few other places in this project to spend that $300+.
>
> Knowing what I know now, if I were a new builder, I would concentrate on the
> project at hand and not get off on exotic tools until I had more experience.
>
> Just one opinion.
> Mike Wilson -4
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: HS tip ribs and dimpling |
Dimpling close to the LE can be tough, but you need to figure out the
technique, because there's more to come, and some of it on thinner
skins that CAN'T be machine c-sunk.
First of all, while it can be done with one person, I find it's a lot
easier (and safer) to have two people -- one to hold the skin and the
other to hold the arbor/ & hit it with the hammer. The main thing is
to press the skin down so that it's as flat as possible against the
die. Any curve will most likely translate to a "smile" where the
edge of the dimple die is.
Also I bought the pop rivet dimpling tool from Avery, and have used it
in a couple of hard to reach areas (I think I used it in the HS leading
edge holes in fact). I haven't used it hardly at all but it's pretty
cheap.
Yes it's discouraging making scrap metal out of good skins. Welcome
to the club!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
Gil
I chose to maximize visibility and have built the tip-up version.
I rather like the squared off corner on the aft lower corner of the
slider so I modified the turtledeck cut out. The plastic followed the
curve of the metal without any difficulty and the end result looks
great.
Trimming the front of the canopy will result in it pivoting around the
roll-over structure and snugging up against the turtledeck. The
plastic is very flexible at the centreline and will easily fit well
there. Pay careful attention to how it fits to the skin through the
curvature on the corners. The moulding had a bit of a reverse curve
or sag in the area of the roll-over structure brace. A small piece of
nylon riveted to the brace fixed that up.
It is a good idea to leave extra material on the turtledeck skin. I
decided on the square corner modification after the skin was riveted.
There was no difficulty trimming it.
I riveted the turtledeck before starting the canopy. It should work
out the same if the structure were just clecoed. There were a few
areas where clecos are advantageous, typically the first foot aft of
the roll-over structure.
When the canopy is finished put the aft section away until there is
nothing left to install in the fuselage. The accessibility will be
appreciated. The same is true for the top forward fuselage skin.
The gas struts on the forward section of the canopy tend to shove the
part forward when it is closed. I put two bolts into the tooling
holes of the forward canopy frame. They contact a reinforced pad on
the instrument sub-panel and may be adjusted with washers. Now I can
control the gap between the canopy frame and the fixed structure.
The gas struts do a good job holding the canopy rigid when open. I did
not find a need to add fiberglass to the forward frame. If I did, I
would limit it to the area between the hinges. The area outboard
appears stiff enough.
The best way to close the canopy is to grasp the corner and pull out
and down. Pulling straight down twists it. This becomes obvious
after trying it once or twice.
All that hair raising work cutting and drilling the plexiglass is
topped off a rather nasty bit of fiberglass work at the canopy leading
edge. Now that it is done I can relax.
Enjoy
Dave Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Tip-up Canopy Construction
Question
Author: alvin!matronics.com!rassp.hac.com!gil (Gil Alexander) at
unix.po Date: 23/08/95 20:45
For you guys who have installed a tip-up canopy...
Van says to cut the aft turtle deck skin for the canopy about 1
inch undersize in the area over the baggage compartment.
Questions .... did you do this?
...Was the final dimension close to the curve given in the plans or
not? ...Did you rivet this skin on before canopy fitting or not?
...Any other hints??
... thanks in advance ... Gil Alexander .. fitting aft turtle deck
skin.
It really looks like an
airplane now!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... |
Cheryl
When I did my rear spar rivets I had the same problem. If I was
to do it again and I didn't have a pneumatic squeezer, I would use the
Avery c-tool and a rivet gun to do the rivets. It is easy and 100% of
the rivets come out perfect. Next to back riveting it is the easiest way
to rivet. Now every time I rivet I always try and figure out if I can
use the c-tool, Squeezing 1/8" rivets is no fun.
On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Cheryl Sanchez wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have also been following this thread with interest. Just
> the other night I squeezed some 1/8" rivets in the rear spar with
> my hand squeezer. I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. If
> it was just one ounce harder to to - I swear - it just wouldn't
> happen. As it was I had to squeeze it a couple of times to get
> it all the way done. Then rest and catch my breath. The next
> day both my hands and arms were sore.
>
> So, if I decided to spend the bucks, what do I really need?
> Looking at the Avery catalog, I see that it comes with 1 1/2",
> 2 1/2" and 3" yokes. The bigger yokes cost more. Which size is
> the best? Also, they list set holders and set holder springs.
> What are these?
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KHarrill(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | More About Squeezers |
With all the discussion about pneumatic squeezers, I borrowed one from a
friend to dimple and set the rivits on my rudder. Your right, it's quick and
effortless. However, let me echo the previously stated cautions. In tight
spots be very careful to align the dimple dies with the holes. It does
indeed punch a hole if there isn't one there and can really screw things up
if the dimple die just slightly misses the hole (new tip rib on order). My
Avery hand squeezer is also a good tool and only takes a little more effort.
Ken Harrill
RV - 6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
scott fink
| Subject: | Re: Watch them parts! |
I had similar experiences with the skins for the horizontal and
vertical stabs, from the bend line to the ends, as much as a 1/4"
difference on one side. It is critical to know this, as this is how you
mesure the alignment for the skins.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, scott fink wrote:
> I received one HS408 which was 3/4" shorter than the other (~9 1/2 vs
> 10 1/4") in my empannage kit which I ordered at Sun-n-Fun this year
> for the RV6. While trying to figure out which was the correct one I
> noticed that there is a dimension missing on drawing 8a in the
> instruction book. The dimension for HS607 overall length is missing
> which does not allow an exact dimension for the HS608 to be
> calculated, hopefully this will appear in the RVator soon. From the
> overall length, however the best guess is that the longer one was
> correct.
>
> The guy at Van's was incredulous and said that this couldn't happen as
> they are all stamped in the same die. After convincing him this
> actually did happen he said that it must be a mismarked RV4 part and
> would send the part out today or tomorrow (that's GREAT customer
> service, I knew I bought this kit for a reason).
>
> I've been real happy with the quality of the kit and instructions
> (although Frank's instructions and George and Becky's video have been
> a real help) and am now happy with the service.
>
> The moral here is to check EVERY part for correctness before spending
> a large amount of time on it, I'm sure glad I noticed this while
> marking the rivet positions for straightining. Anyone can make a
> mistake, and this is no worse than I have already done (can you say
> "re-order parts"?). But from now on, I'll check the dimensions on all
> parts before doing ANY work on them, I'd rather make all of the
> mistakes myself.
>
> How many other instances of this have happened to others?
>
> Gotta go and make sure that the rear and front spars dimension out...
>
> Scott Fink
> RV6 #24237, sure glad I didn't rivet that rascal on, must be a bear to
> drill out rivets with a 12" bit...
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Watch them parts! (fwd) |
I had one wrong rib on my RV4 kit. This as been a long time back,
but I think it was the inboard rib on the LE skin where there is
a boubler for the fuel tank attach. This rib is like .032 narrower
than the other ribs as the doubles must be mounted on it plus the
LE skin. Anyway, after studying it for some time and trying to make it
fit I determined it was the wrong rib. Van's didn't see how it happened
but they sent me the correct part and then everything fit fine.
The rib for the other wing was fine so it was just one part that was bad.
I also had the rear control stick would not slide into the torq tube
as the part that slid in was bent slightly and not straight.
They sent me a new rear control stick and it slid right in.
The worst part I had was the Cleveland wheels. These were not treated
properly and the magnesium had corrosion on it. I sent them back and
they agreed and sent me new ones. The new ones had 'bent' disk brakes
and when the wheel was spun you could see the disks move about 1/16 of
an inch. I think the box got dropped or stomped on somewhere along the
line. They would not take these back and I had a machine shop
beat then ito allighment. I like Cleveland wheels and have them on
a Cessna and a Pitts and have worked with them on a number of other
airplanes. But I got burned twice on these wheels.
So, yes, you do have to keep a carefull eye on the parts. Sometimes
you just don't believe it when it is not correct. Van's does stand
behind their parts. All things considerd, that is not bad given all
the parts that it takes to make up one of these kits.
Herman
>
> How many other instances of this have happened to others?
>
> Gotta go and make sure that the rear and front spars dimension out...
>
> Scott Fink
> RV6 #24237, sure glad I didn't rivet that rascal on, must be a bear to
> drill out rivets with a 12" bit...
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Fuel tank pressure testing tip |
In earlier postings several people have mentioned having trouble
getting the filler cap to seal for pressure testing. Both mine were
fine first try. I tightened down the nut so it was tough but not
impossible to close it. Then I cut the end off a baloon and stretched
it over the cap with the open end on the outside. Then I rubbed spit on
the filler neck and balloon, and put it in. No problem.
I did have some trouble getting a good temporary seal on the access
plates. I used a fiber gasket with fuel lube. Buna-n rubber would
probably be better. I plan to use fiber gasket/proseal for the final
seal though.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | closing the wing |
I riveted about half the bottom skin on on one wing last night.
I had left the inboard 4 ribs un-riveted to the top skin and spars
as per Frank's instructions, and did those one at a time. Worked
pretty well. The rest of it was pretty hard though. I got outboard
as far as and including the short rib, bellcrank rib, gussets and
rib and spar rivets. Hopefully the rest will be easier.
I did it as I remember people recommending, peeling back the skin as
little as possible but as much as you need to to get in there to buck.
I still felt like a contortionist, especially in the bellcrank rib area
-- I could barely fit my arm up in there and had to use sheer will
power, guesswork, and braille to locate the bar on the rivet and hold
it there. I used an inspection mirror to check the shop heads and
(where I could) locate the bucking bar on the rivet. Any
recommendations here for making this easier before I go any further?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
PS. I'm not whining (ok maybe a little), just looking for tips.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Regarding the post on how high the spars should sit in the jig and the
distance between the wings...
I found that having the spar sit about chest high was comfortable. I'd put
about 30 to 36 inches between the spars.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | fenn(at)msg.ti.com (Brad Fennell) |
Please un-suscribe me from the rv-list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brian Cooper" <cooper(at)seer.jpl.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | RV8 photos available on the net! |
To those that have been dying to see what the RV8 prototype looked like as of
Oshkosh 95, I have scanned in the photos I took and place them for all to see
and copy on one of our workstations here. There are 10 images of the RV8 from
all angles from in front of Van's tent. I have two directories one for the
images in TIFF format which are about 360 KB each and one for the same images
compressed to about 30 KB each. I have placed a README file here also which I
will show below. To access you can use Netscape, Mosaic or some other WEB
brower and open the following location: ftp://holodeck.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/rv8
Or you may use the old fashioned method of ftp'ing by hand with username
anonymous and any password. Then cd to pub/rv8. Please don't ask me to send
them to you through email (I don't have time to uuencode and break them up into
bite size chunks suitable for emailing right now).
README File:
Here are the descriptions of the images:
All images were taken in front of VAN's tent at Oskosh 95
Images with .tif suffix are in TIFF format, those with a .jpg suffix have been
compressed into JPEG format, and are just copies of the TIFF format images.
Photo name: description
cooper1: RV8 from a distance (a rare moment when only a few folks were
surrounding the plane).
cooper2: Your's Truly standing in from of the wing root.
cooper3: One for Mom. Closeup of me in front of RV8
cooper4: Closeup of the left wing tip.
cooper5: Closeup of left horizontal stab/elevator tip.
cooper6: Shot of rear of the empennage showing left elevator with trim tab.
cooper7: Closeup of rudder and vertical stabilizer.
cooper8: Shot of the nose with EAA description tag.
cooper9: Shot of someone opening up the front baggage compartment.
cooper10: Shot of the empennage assembly. Sliding canopy visible.
P.S. Jeremey Benedict, please feel free to copy these and place what you like
in the Van's WWW page.
Enjoy,
--
Brian K. Cooper - Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena CA - (818)-354-6298
cooper(at)robotics.jpl.nasa.gov
Signature in Stereo (free view, diverge eyes):
X X
ZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWVZKSCCFYKDXNLORWV
FWAVBMYQCLXJRGNTFWABMYQCQLXJRGTFWHABMYQCLXJVRGTFHABMYUQCLXVRGTFHOABYUQCLXWVRGTFH
GRTUFHNBDTZFQATQGRUFHNBDTRZFQTQGRUYFHNBTRZFQETQGUYFHNBQTRZQEHTQGUYFNBXQTZQXEHTQG
UQPDMMSKSJDOONCSUQDMSMSKSJDONCVSUDMRSMKSZJDNCNVSDMSRSKSSZJNCFNVSDMSSKLSSJNSCFNVS
JBAHAWXSALESVWDBJBHALWXSALESWDSBJHAQLWSAPLEWDKSBHAIQLSAMPLWDKSBHDAILSAMPLJWDKSBH
ZXDEIWQMWXOUWGUKZXEIKWQMWXOUGUMKZEIFKWMWJXOGUQMKEIFKWMIWJXGUWQMKEIFWMKIWXGYUWQMK
NWIZZTYXXEHTUVRTNWZZTYXXEKHTURTNWZLZTYXEKHTUQRTNZLSZTYXEKHUQGRTNZLSTYAXEHUDQGRTN
UHOMSMYSZWBYWWYVUHOSMYSZTWBYWWVUHEOSMYSZWBYEWWVUEOOSMYSZWBEWWVUEZOOMYASZBEFWWVUE
UMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLIIUMTMEBOJVWXKQLII
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re[2]: my favorite tool - 2 |
*** 2 nd try due to e-mail problems *** Gil
>On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
>
>> Several people have mentioned using pneumatic squeezers to squeeze 1/8"
>> rivets. With my squeezer anyway, I've found it doesn't really have
>> enough power to squeeze the longer 1/8" rivets.
>
>At least in my squeezer, all the power is really in the last 1/16 inch
Since all of the force isn't present until the end of the travel as Dave
says, I sometimes take the "two step" approach to long rivets. I set them
half-way first, add another shim, and then do a final set. Since you are
usually working on multiple, same length rivets at one time, this is not
much extra work, and it seems a little easier to prevent the rivets from
"folding over" this way..
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... fitted aft rear top
fuselage skin last night!
>of travel. If your adjustable set holder is a bit too long, then that
>would cause it. I just finsihed squeezing some -7 rivets with no
>problems.
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | SBlomqui(at)aol.com |
Please unsubscribe me from the RV list. Thank you
Steve Blomquist
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | canopy controversy |
Tip-up, slider, what the heck is this all about, I thought all RV
canopies flopped over to the right.
Jeff Hall
RV-(flopper)4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | reply - HS tip ribs |
OK, I give. After all the discussion on here about dimpling vs.
countersinking I decided to dimple the HS skins. How close to the leading
edge of the HS should the last rivit be? I ASSuMEd that at least one rivit
should go into the forward end of the tip ribs (past the cut for curvature.
---------------------------------------------------
I used the pop rivet dimpling tool from Avery, it worked great for those hard
to get to places on the tail or wing skins.
TommyLewis(at)AOL.COM
RV6A - wings in jig, drilling second flap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: my favorite tool - 2 |
>
> Since all of the force isn't present until the end of the travel as Dave
> says, I sometimes take the "two step" approach to long rivets. I set them
> half-way first, add another shim, and then do a final set. Since you are
> usually working on multiple, same length rivets at one time, this is not
> much extra work, and it seems a little easier to prevent the rivets from
> "folding over" this way..
>
> ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... fitted aft rear top
> fuselage skin last night!
I find that rivets harden within a few seconds after hitting them with
a squeezer or gun. I have never had good results going back for a second
time to make a rivet look better. The two step process described above
seems to be two steps. Has anybody else neticed the hardening tendency?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | RV6 firewall minor problem |
RV-listers,
I just got my formed RV6 firewall recess from Vans, and it
is almost a work of art, in brushed stainless steel, spot welded and
pre-punched, and only $38. Part number F-601K ... but it didn't make the
optional parts catalog yet.
However, it is unfortunately also 8 3/64 inches wide due to the
build up of layers at the welded seams. Since my firewall was already
built and riveted to the plans given 8 inch dimension between the two
central upright 3/4 inch angles, it wouldn't fit :^( Since it's welded
into a sturdy box shape, it can't be flexed to make it fit :^(
So if you are building the firewall soon, order the part with your
fuselage kit, and use the actual part to set the distance between the two
central vertical angles. Don't try and add it later like I did! Fuselage
construction might be easier if you postpone riveting it on until after
removal of the fus. from the jig, but at least fit it during initial
firewall assembly.
Thanks to all of you who responded with methods of cutting the
firewall stainless steel. I tried both ways (snippers and cutting disk)
and was quite unsucessful with the snippers. The stainless is so soft it
sort of 'squished' instead of cut. A 3 inch cutting disk in my die grinder
worked great, both a h/w store one and an Avery one, but the stainless did
wear them out rapidly. I guess some tools work better than others for
different folks :^) Finishing of the cut edges to size with a 2 inch
fine sanding disk in the die grinder worked well, followed by a careful
pass with a fine file to remove the _sharp_ edges.
Gil Alexander ..... back to my ugly home-bent firewall recess
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.Microchip.COM |
| Subject: | Re: HS tip ribs and dimpling |
Thanks for the tip. I even have the pop rivet riveting tool which I
bought a while back and completely forgot about it. Oh well, the new
skin will ship next week. Live and learn.
Scott
RV6 24237
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: HS tip ribs and dimpling
Date: 8/25/95 11:27 AM
Dimpling close to the LE can be tough, but you need to figure out the
technique, because there's more to come, and some of it on thinner
skins that CAN'T be machine c-sunk.
First of all, while it can be done with one person, I find it's a lot
easier (and safer) to have two people -- one to hold the skin and the
other to hold the arbor/ & hit it with the hammer. The main thing is
to press the skin down so that it's as flat as possible against the
die. Any curve will most likely translate to a "smile" where the
edge of the dimple die is.
Also I bought the pop rivet dimpling tool from Avery, and have used it
in a couple of hard to reach areas (I think I used it in the HS leading
edge holes in fact). I haven't used it hardly at all but it's pretty
cheap.
Yes it's discouraging making scrap metal out of good skins. Welcome
to the club!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LHaines794(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: My Favorite Tool (major chatter) |
I've taken a few hours out of direct construction to build a very deep (25
inches) throat pneumatic dimpler/ squeezer out of an old steel plate, an old
pneumatic cylinder and a foot pedal I bought from McMaster- Carr ( I work in
a tool and die shop). When I finish it and try it out, I'll report on it.
LHaines - Emp in progress - slowly.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LHaines794(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Watch them parts! |
A similar problem with HS-607 came up in the Feb 95 RVator.
LHaines
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | PilotJono(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | pre-purchase info |
Have any significant safety or performance changes been incorporated in the
RV-4 since 1987? Any information on this topic would be appreciated, as well
as any information where an on-line group might be found. Please reply to
nuggetnews@aol or this address. Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Ok, I'm sold on the squeezer idea... |
Cheryl Sanchez wrote:
>Hi,
>
> I have also been following this thread with interest. Just
>the other night I squeezed some 1/8" rivets in the rear spar with
>my hand squeezer. I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. If
>it was just one ounce harder to to - I swear - it just wouldn't
>happen. As it was I had to squeeze it a couple of times to get
>it all the way done. Then rest and catch my breath. The next
>day both my hands and arms were sore.
>
> So, if I decided to spend the bucks, what do I really need?
>Looking at the Avery catalog, I see that it comes with 1 1/2",
>2 1/2" and 3" yokes. The bigger yokes cost more. Which size is
>the best? Also, they list set holders and set holder springs.
>What are these?
>Cheryl Sanchez
Good questions, I want to know too. But I already have a pile
of money invested in a Tatco squeezer with the 2.5" and 1" yokes.
Does anyone know if a pneumatic squeezer is available that uses
these yokes? All of the pneumatics that I have seen in my catalogs
look like they won't work with Tatco's three mounting pins.
I might save a hundred bucks if there is one. I sure that many on
this list would be more interested in popping for a pneumatic if
they felt that they could reuse the yokes. Besides, my hand squeezer
will still be necessary - I don't want to crank up the compressor
everytime I need to squeeze one or two rivets.
Bill Pace
WBPace(at)aol.com
(No, I'm NOT and AOL newbie!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Mumert" <mumertd(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: My Favorite Tool (major chatter) |
> I've taken a few hours out of direct construction to build a very
> deep (25 inches) throat pneumatic dimpler/ squeezer out of an old
> steel plate, an old pneumatic cylinder and a foot pedal I bought
> from McMaster- Carr ( I work in a tool and die shop). When I finish
> it and try it out, I'll report on it.
>
> LHaines - Emp in progress - slowly.
>
I was just looking in the tool catgalog and dreaming of mounting a
pnematic squeezer onto a similar device. Much like the avery tool
you bash with a hammer. It would have to be VERY strong but it would
be easy to use if mounted to a bench like the Avery tool.
Dave Mumert
mumertd(at)cadvision.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: HS tip ribs and dimpling |
On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Microchip Technology wrote:
> OK, I give. After all the discussion on here about dimpling vs.
> countersinking I decided to dimple the HS skins. How close to the leading
> edge of the HS should the last rivit be? I ASSuMEd that at least one rivit
> should go into the forward end of the tip ribs (past the cut for curvature.
I cheat. WHen I get to that point, I use Avery's little pop rivet dimpler.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
I've been thinking through the sequence of riveting the skins to the wing
and attching the aileron gap seal and flap brace.
It appears that if you rivet the skins down without using pop rivets,
then you are forced to rivet the flap brace to the rear spar with pop
rivets. In other words, to rivet the skin with no pop rivets, you leave
out the inboard five ribs, rivet the skin to the rest of the skeleton,
then insert and rivet those ribs one-at-a-time. It appears that to rivet
these ribs to the rear spar, the flap brace must not be attached. So
therefore if you wait until last to rivet the flap brace, then it must be
pop-riveted on.
Is there a trick or am I missing something?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | Van's WWW: RV-8 Pictures!!! |
Van's Aircraft's Web Site now has pictures of the RV-8. They are the
collection belonging to Brian Cooper. The pictures are under the "RV-8"
section, and are organized in a tour fashion, on top of the standard
background. Try it out, and thanks to Brian.
Jeremy
jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
Van's WebManager
Note: as always please report any errors to me, thanx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron gap seal: order of assembly |
Once again, I'm thinking through the order in which I rivet the wing skins
and attach the aileron gap seal and flap brace. I've come up with the
following order of assembly for the aileron gap seal:
1. While the skins are off the wings, back-rivet the aileron gap seal
to the top wing skin.
2. Back-rivet the inboard and outboard top wing skins to the skeleton,
except for trailing edge of outboard top skin.
3. Rivet the trailing edge of the outboard top skin to the rear spar
by peeling the aileron gap seal back just enough to get Avery's
long back rivet set between the gap seal and rear spar.
While this method seems reasonable, I also cannot see any other
way to do it. COmments anyone?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | 0 SMOH O320-E2A for sale |
Can take constant speed prop
1500 TTSN, 0 SMOH by A&P
Mandatory parts replacement per Lyc Serv Bulletin 240M
Overhauled to factory new limits
Includes overhauled Bendix S4LN mags
starter & ring
MA4SPA carb
fuel pump, core only
$12,500
call John Hunsicker
408 779-6937
e-mail to be will probably be ignored!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lgroom(at)millcomm.com (Larry Groom) |
| Subject: | Question to Veri-Prime Users |
Hello All,
I've been using Veri-Prime since starting construction. It seems to work
fine but
I have noticed a problem for me. When priming, using the "Cup Gun" from
Avery's the
primer seems to go on fine. It dries quickly, within a couple of minutes.
I've noticed
that when I'm getting to the bottom of the cup that the primer being sprayed
doesn't
dry very fast. In fact I've seen it tacky the next day. Tonight while
priming the Vert
Stab rear spar, I noticed it again, and decided to experiment and added a
little more
converter to the mix. It caused the primer, the stuff that was still wet and
the new
coat to dry normally.
Now I guess it should be obvious that maybe I'm not adding enuf converter
but what
puzzles me is that when I first start priming it's okay. My question is, has
anyone
seen this before and what did you do to fix it. Also, how do you mix it?
What type
of containers do you use and how do you measure it.
I have to admit that priming is the part of this building process that I
don't like.
I guess I'm looking for any advice or input on how to do this as painless as
possible.
I'm building in a 2 car garage and use a good mask and leave the garage door
open etc.
Thanks in advance for any and all comments. I enjoy the list very much!
Larry Groom
RV-6 23782
Horz. Stab. working on Vert Stab.
Larry Groom
KE0VZ
RV-6 23782
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | baa(at)texas.net (Ben Armstrong) |
I was just going through an issue of the RVator and realized that I never
got a copy of the June or August issues. Did the June and August issues go
out? Thanks in advance.
Ben Armstrong
List Lurker
Probably a 6
(Trying to figure out a way to convince
my wife that a drill press, band saw,
and the Avery kit are necessary to help
complete a '68 Mustang)
________________________________________________________________________________
I would like to subscribe to the RV List. I am starting an RV6A project;
have the manual in hand along with some tools -need all the input available.
Thanks. My address is:
greenrv(at)aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
I'm still working on my RV-6A empennage. I started on the horizontal
stabilizer on 2 July. Four days ago I decided to discard it and order new
spars, ribs, and hinge brackets. It was a rather painful decision, as you
can imagine. I made two mistakes in constructing my horiz stab, one
discouraging, one fatal. The discouraging one was that I followed the
advice of the maker of the video available from Van's and tried to mark
the outline of the stab skeleton on the inside of the skin. It might not
be a bad idea if carefully done, but it didn't work for me. I think the
skin either separated too far from the skeleton and I didn't see it or I
lost alignment when I changed from one side of the skin to the other. In
any event, I marked the outline of the skeleton on the skin imprecisely.
Moreover, I judge the method, for me, to be too imprecise. The result was
that the whole thing was unsatisfying in its imprecision. I simply wasn't
proud of the work. My learning curve has been so steep that, in working
on the vertical stabilizer, I have done, in the last 10 hours, what would
have taken me a month when I first started and the quality of the work is
much improved over what I was able to achieve on the horiz stab.
The fatal error is somewhat more interesting, at least to a beginner like
me. At the risk of boring people who already know all this, Ill tell you
what I discovered about dimpling and countersinking. On the good advice of
Gil Alexander, I decided to dimple my skins rather than countersinking
simply because the joint is substantially stronger. Due to the imprecise
character of my marking and drilling, however, I was unable to dimple a
dozen or more holes in the skeleton, both in the ribs and the aft spar,
because they were drilled too close to the web or reinforcing bar. Since I
couldn't dimple them, I decided to countersink them, i.e., these several
holes in the skeleton, thinking that the skin dimple would fit into the
recess left by the countersinking below. Not so! The countersinking into
a 0.032 in. rib will not allow sufficient depth to accomodate the skin
dimple; therefore, when the rivet is driven, the skin and rib (or spar) do
not make contact except, of course, directly under the rivet head. One
cannot just deepen the countersinking because in doing so one enlarges the
hole, removing too much material and weakening the joint unacceptably.
Those of you who have assembled your vertical stab aft spar know that Van
calls for countersinking into the reinforcing plate and dimpling the spar
channel, with the dimples in the channel intended to fit into the
countersunk recess, which seems to contradict what I just said. But the
fact is that if you do this by countersinking only enough to accomodate a
rivet head, you will not achieve perfect contact between the channel and
the reinforcing plate. I discovered through testing that one must
countersink slightly more than the rivet head to achieve perfect contact.
I can't tell you exactly how much more; you have to try it and SEE. Once
you work it out with some scrap stock, you'll know how deep you have to
go. It isn't much, but it is important if you want a perfect fit.
Another topic that has been very annoying to me is the tedium associated
with priming. I started this project using Du Pont Veri-Prime and the
inexpensive "zip gun" recommended by Van's. I can't imagine a more
tedious, frustrating process than this. After all but stomping on that
damned zip gun I decided to move to aerosol cans of zinc oxide, which I
bought from Aircraft Spruce. It turned out to be almost as frustrating as
the Veri-Prime because the cans dried up and refused to work when they were
still half full or more. I finally bought a can of Mar Hyde from Thompson
Lacquer in Santa Monica and got some professional advice from the sales
person there, who seemed to be very competent. Yesterday I sprayed the
various components of my vert stab aft spar and was very pleased with both
the quality of the finish and the dramatic improvement in efficiency. The
paint dried quickly, is hard and smooth, light gray in color (a pleasant
change from the green zinc oxide), semi-glossy, and provides a very
professional looking finish. So far, so good. Mar Hyde, like Veri-Prime,
is a self-etching primer whose toxic qualities demand the same care, but at
least the aerosol can works (so far) and there's no spray gun cleanup
required. After use, I invert the can and spray to clean out the nozzle,
then remove the nozzle from the can and drop it in a capful of lacquer
thinner. It seems to work okay. Meanwhile, the parts look like a pro did
the job.
I hope some of this is helpful to someone out there.
Jack Abell
RV-6A Vert Stab
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question to Veri-Prime Users |
> I've been using Veri-Prime since starting construction. It seems to work
> fine but I have noticed a problem for me. When priming, using the "Cup Gun"
> from Avery's the primer seems to go on fine. It dries quickly, within a
> couple of minutes. I've noticed that when I'm getting to the bottom of the
> cup that the primer being sprayed doesn't dry very fast.
I use the Avery "cup gun" (I used it today, as a matter of fact) to shoor
Variprime, and I don't have that problem. I think it could be one of
three things:
1. It is very cold when you prime. If that is the case, switch from
616S Converter to 620S Fast Converter.
2. You are not mixing the two parts well enough (that's hard to believe,
though. A few seconds of stirring seems to be all that it takes.
3. Your 616S Converter is old?
Do you have a Zahn cup? If so, check to see that the viscosity
of your 615S/616S mix is 17-19 seconds.
I've always found the staff at my DuPont dealer to be most helpful. I'd
also suggest visiting them and asking them about it.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Question to Veri-Prime Users |
>
> Hello All,
> I've been using Veri-Prime since starting construction. It seems to work
> fine but
> I have noticed a problem for me. When priming, using the "Cup Gun" from
> Avery's the
> primer seems to go on fine. It dries quickly, within a couple of minutes.
> I've noticed
> that when I'm getting to the bottom of the cup that the primer being sprayed
> doesn't
> Larry Groom
> RV-6 23782
> Horz. Stab. working on Vert Stab.
> Larry Groom
> KE0VZ
> RV-6 23782
>
>
The wax from the cup is being desolved by the solvent in the primer.
I had the same problem when I first started useing the "zip gun". I
converted my gun to use baby food jars. This solves the problem. To
convert the gun, "pop" rivet a baby food jar lid to the black plastic part
of the gun. I first tried useing "Snappel" jars but found that the gun
would not pull the paint from the bottom of the jar. My guess is that the
venturi was not strong enough to pull the paint up. A better solution is
to use a real spray gun to prime with. I haven't used the "zip" gun for
some time. Clean up isn't all that bad.
Chris
Sealing the fuel tanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
Thanks to Brian for posting the RV-8 pics, what a beauty.
For those who saw it, does this thing weigh more than the -6?
Anyone got a interior shot?
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Engines for RV 6A |
>
>>I need some advice on engines. I am looking for a 360 with a hollow crank.
>I have been offered an IO 360 C1E6, which is 200 hp.
>I understand there are some problems in fitting it under the cowl, and
>possibly other problems.
>Does anyone have experience in fitting this motor onto an RV 6A ?
> John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: micro monitor engine instrument system |
Phone Number for Rocky Mountain Instruments is (307) 864-9300
Jim Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Stanley C. Blanton" <75472.372(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Aileron gap seal: order of assembly |
If a long Avery back rivet set is used to set the rear spar flange rivets for
the top skin there might be a problem with the angle. The rear spar flange has
an acute angle and IMHO it would be very difficult to get the rivet set to set
square even with the slight bend in the Avery tool. I used a suezzer to do the
top skins first and still had to be very careful using a small diameter set to
let the squeezer yoke clear the spar web.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Chris Schulte" <chris(at)ashtech.COM> |
John Cocker
| Subject: | Re: Engines for RV 6A |
>
>>I need some advice on engines. I am looking for a 360 with a hollow crank.
>I have been offered an IO 360 C1E6, which is 200 hp.
>I understand there are some problems in fitting it under the cowl, and
>possibly other problems.
>Does anyone have experience in fitting this motor onto an RV 6A ?
> John
>
I believe this is the type of engine used in a piper senneca, in which case
it would not work. The throttle body faces aft and would be in direct con-
flict with the nose wheel assembly. However there are a few experts out
there that can modifie the manifold, sealing up the back, and moving the
throtle body to the front of the engine. This is a real good setup. I
would say if you are getting the engine for a bargin price I'd look into
it....
Chris.
RV-6 #21390
San Jose, CA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Oliver <75274.3426(at)compuserve.com> |
Please unsubscribe me. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu (Jim McDonald) |
Please unsubscribe me from the RV list. Thank you.
Jim McDonald
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JDelveau(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Left Elevator / Trim Tab |
Before I put pop rivets into the left elevator I wanted to check and see if
there is an alternate way or some trick to avoid using them.
The rivets in question are the ones that are outboard of the outboard end of
the trim tab that hold the rear spar of the left elevator to the skin. There
are about half a dozen. I guess you might be able to buck the top ones first
and then pop the ones on the bottom. I know you guys will have some comments
on this, I hate the idea of those pop rivets right in the middle of the skin!
Thanks
Jim Delveau
RV-6 finishing trim tab and tappering the flange strips.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | re: Engine Cranks / lightening holes! |
Recent postings about engine crankshafts prompted me to repeat the
Lycoming service bulletin search that I performed 4 years ago. At
that time, I determined that the O-320 hollow crank with lightening
holes was not a problem to be installed in my RV-6. It was capable of
doing any maneuver that the aircraft could. I still feel the same
way.
In 1984, AD # 84-13-05 was issued against **AIO-360 and AEIO-360**
manufactured before June 1, 1983. This required a visual inspection
of the crank within 25 hours and inspections every 25 hours there
after. The initial inspection must be performed as directed.
However, if no subsequent aerobatic maneuvers are practiced,
additional inspections are not required. The Lycoming service bulletin
is number 465. (Latest revision is #465C July 2, 1993) The service
bulletin also requires replacement at disassembly.
Lycoming states: "Crankshafts with lightening holes in the flange,
have proven reliable for over 15 years of aerobatic service. Textron
Lycoming is unable to determine the operating conditions that induce
the excessive stress in the crankshaft propeller flange; this is a
function of aerobatic maneuver, operating RPM, propeller
configuration, and aircraft dynamic response."
Lycoming Service Letter L202B May 3, 1985, references all 320, 360 and
540 engines to see Service Bulletin 465 for the inspection. Lycoming
states: "As for all other 320, 360 and 540 series Avco Lycoming
engine models with lightening holes in the propeller flange, it is
suggested that aircraft operators and owners also comply with the
inspection aspects of Service Bulletin No. 465, if the engines are, or
have been engaged in aerobatic maneuvers."
More info can be obtained from your local FBO on the above numbers.
Superior Engine Kits:
It was posted that a Superior salesman stated that they will have an
engine parts kit available for $12K. :^) I think that I spoke with
the same salesman at Oshkosh 1992 about Millennium cylinders for my
O-320. He told me that they would be available later that year for
$600. They just became available late last year for $1.9K each retail
and are wholesale double the price I was quoted. I hope he is correct
on the engine kit. :^) I have many Superior parts in my engine. I
think that they are as good as or better than any available. I just
do not believe what the salepeople tell me.
Gary
RV-6 20480 N157GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel tank pressure testing tip -Reply |
No one has mentioned fiber gaskets in any
other posting. I used the gray stuff like
they use for fuel pump gaskets as a
temporary seal with fuel lube. It seemed to
work great. I was thinkig of using it for
the final seal with Tight seal or some
other aviation fuel proof sealer. Discount
auto parts has some permatex product that
is called Aviation sealer. They also have
the gray fiber gasket material. The gasket
material is nice and smooth and dense.
Seems like it would work okay.
I wonder if it will soak up gasoline and
break down. I guess with some pro-seal on
the outside as a final seal it should be
okay.
>>> Randall Henderson
08/25/95 01:54pm >>>
In earlier postings several people have
mentioned having trouble getting the filler
cap to seal for pressure testing. Both mine
were fine first try. I tightened down the
nut so it was tough but not impossible to
close it. Then I cut the end off a baloon
and stretched it over the cap with the open
end on the outside. Then I rubbed spit on
the filler neck and balloon, and put it in.
No problem.
I did have some trouble getting a good
temporary seal on the access plates. I used
a fiber gasket with fuel lube. Buna-n
rubber would probably be better. I plan to
use fiber gasket/proseal for the final seal
though.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | re: closing the wing |
>Randall Henderson said;
>
>I used an inspection mirror to check the shop heads and (where I could) locate
>the bucking bar on the rivet. Any recommendations here for making this easier
>before I go any further?
If you press your finger on the rivet shop head, you will leave a temporary
impression of the rivet shop head on your finger.
If you can feel the rivet shop head with your finger, you can visually inspect
the actual diameter of the shop head. For a constant skin/flange thickness, and
rivet length, this should be all that's needed to inspect the rivet shop head.
btw, if there is a sharp edge on the rivet shop head because the bucking bar was
only on the edge of the rivet, you'll notice this without looking at the
impression. :-)
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 Ready for Van's Fly-In
RV-4 parts collecting dust
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 firewall minor problem |
Text item:
> I just got my formed RV6 firewall recess from Vans,...
>
> However, it is unfortunately also 8 3/64 inches wide due to the
>build up of layers at the welded seams. Since my firewall was already
>built and riveted to the plans given 8 inch dimension between the two
>central upright 3/4 inch angles, it wouldn't fit :^( Since it's welded
>into a sturdy box shape, it can't be flexed to make it fit :^(
>
> So if you are building the firewall soon, order the part with your
>fuselage kit, and use the actual part to set the distance between the two
>central vertical angles.
For a short time my instructions said to do this but I changed them later. If
you widen the space between the two middle stiffeners on the firewall the
battery box pieces will not fit and the two lower-middle engine mount bolts
will come out too close to the side of the heavy angle they attach to. I did
know that the cheap kit consisting of a precut blank that you bend and rivet
yourself was too wide, but I didn't know that the preformed boxes were also too
wide. I will try to find out what to do about this.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
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and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: RV6 firewall minor problem
From: rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 16:56:18 -0800
4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sfink(at)ccmail.microchip.com (Scott Fink) |
| Subject: | Re: Question to Veri-Prime Users |
I had similar problems when I first started using the Veri-Prime, I even called
DuPont, although he wasn't very much help and said that they tried to make it an
idiot proof process (guess I'm a bigger idiot than they counted on! :'> ).
Basically what I found is that the primer in the gallon can seperates very
rapidly and you need to mix it in the container VERY (veri?) thoroughly. I
think if you do this you will no longer see the problem.
I use clear-plastic Dixie (NOT the colored ones, they melt, big mess, I learned
this the hard way) cups with the sprayer. I first mix the gallon can VERY
thoroughly and then dip one of the clean unused cups in to get the amount I want
and wipe off the outside. I then eyeball the amount of convertor and mix with
a
mixing stick. The guy from DuPont said the exact amount of convertor is not
critical.
Once I started mixing the primer before taking any out of the can, I had no
problems at all.
Hope this fixes your problem.
Scott Fink
RV6 working on HS (still)
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Question to Veri-Prime Users
Date: 8/26/95 11:47 PM
Hello All,
I've been using Veri-Prime since starting construction. It seems to work
fine but
I have noticed a problem for me. When priming, using the "Cup Gun" from
Avery's the
primer seems to go on fine. It dries quickly, within a couple of minutes.
I've noticed
that when I'm getting to the bottom of the cup that the primer being sprayed
doesn't
dry very fast. In fact I've seen it tacky the next day. Tonight while
priming the Vert
Stab rear spar, I noticed it again, and decided to experiment and added a
little more
converter to the mix. It caused the primer, the stuff that was still wet and
the new
coat to dry normally.
Now I guess it should be obvious that maybe I'm not adding enuf converter
but what
puzzles me is that when I first start priming it's okay. My question is, has
anyone
seen this before and what did you do to fix it. Also, how do you mix it?
What type
of containers do you use and how do you measure it.
I have to admit that priming is the part of this building process that I
don't like.
I guess I'm looking for any advice or input on how to do this as painless as
possible.
I'm building in a 2 car garage and use a good mask and leave the garage door
open etc.
Thanks in advance for any and all comments. I enjoy the list very much!
Larry Groom
RV-6 23782
Horz. Stab. working on Vert Stab.
Larry Groom
KE0VZ
RV-6 23782
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
>I've been thinking through the sequence of riveting the skins to the wing
>and attching the aileron gap seal and flap brace.
>
>It appears that if you rivet the skins down without using pop rivets,
>then you are forced to rivet the flap brace to the rear spar with pop
>rivets.
If I can remember the way I wrote it without looking it up, rivet the flap brace
to the rear spar before riveting on the bottom skin. You can then drive some but
not all of the rivets that hold the wingwalk area ribs to the rear spar. Use pop
rivets for the rest. I remember this as not being difficult, but it was driven
by a now-dissipated fanaticism for eliminating pop-rivets.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Pop Rivets |
Text item:
>I've been thinking through the sequence of riveting the skins to the wing
>and attching the aileron gap seal and flap brace.
>
>It appears that if you rivet the skins down without using pop rivets,
>then you are forced to rivet the flap brace to the rear spar with pop
>rivets.
I closed my wings single-handedly without using pop rivets and also after making
the mistake of riveting all the wingwalk ribs to the spars. My flap brace was
already riveted to the spar but I didn't rivet it to the wing (bottom) skin
until after I had closed the wing.
I used a sequence that essentially started at the wing walk/rear spar region and
worked outward to the tip, but there are some very subtle sequences that you'll
just have to work out as you go along. Rivets can be reached though lightening
holes, along the length of the skin spanwise (careful peeling it back to avoid
creases in the skin), and from the from front spar flange rearward to the rear
spar. Pay attention to which direction the rib flanges are pointing in your
strategizing. Get the rear spar by reaching in under the skin from behind the
front spar but don't go to far along the rear spar before heading down the rib
flanges toward the front spar on the adjacent ribs. Don't go too far on any
line of rivets without testing your future strategies using clecos to simulate
where your next rivets will be. In fact, you can simulate the entire closure
operation with clecos first and get you sequence down. Just when you think
you're about dead in the water, a long reach through a couple of lightening
holes can save the day. I had a fairly massive bucking bar with a long reach
that I used to extend my reach by up to about five inches in a few places along
the rear spar flange. I did use the finger indentation trick and also a mirror
to check shop heads in a couple of places. Long arms, strong wrists, and a high
tolerance for contorted positions and pain are also helpful physical attributes
if you attempt it alone :-).
Calin N66VR (RV-6 in progress)
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Pop Rivets
From: Frank K Justice <ccm.ssd.intel.com!Frank_K_Justice(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 12:50:00 PDT
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rv-8 picture from www |
pictures?what pictures. i aint got no stinking pictures!! i tried to download
the rv-8 pictures from www.earthlink and from holodeck.jpl all i got was
picture courtesy of brian. i know this is not a computor user group forum so
please don't flame me. and if the explanation on how to access it would be
too long, please direct me to the proper forum...thanks ...jimnjac(at)aol.com
rv-4 under construction....hillsboro or.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | Priming the interior surfaces |
Van's suggested priming with Sherwin Williams acid etch which is two parts:
1. Industrial Wash Primer PP60G2.
2. Wash Primer Catalyst Reducer R7K44.
Van's and others suggested first cleaning with "Alum-a-prep."
The supplier here recommmended by several builders here says Alumaprep's
name has been changed by PPG to "ALUMINUM CLEANER" PPG # DX533.
Does anyone know if this is the correct material to prep for Sherwin
Williams acid etch?
Other recommendations for priming?
Bob Haan
RV-6A Horizontal Stab
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Roli Kriening <Roli_Kriening(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
Please unsubscribe me from the list.
Thanks
Roli
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
| Subject: | Homecoming/breakfast/EAA-105/sat. |
Just a quick note to any of you folks coming to Van's Homecoming this weekend.
On the first saturday of every month EAA chapter 105 holds a pancake
breakfast and this weekend is no exception. It is held at Twin Oaks Airport
about 5 miles south of the Hillsboro airport -- land to the north, takeoff
to the south ONLY (noise abatement).
We normally feed about 150 people between 8 and 11 am on saturday morning so
another 40 or 50 would be more than welcome.
It's only $4 a head for blueberry pancakes, scrambled eggs, bacon, coffee,
orange juice, and some of the best darn GRITS you've ever had on this side
of the Rockies.
Oh sure you're going to be stuffed after the barbeque on friday, that's ok.
Calories don't count when you're on vacation and it'll help keep your
stomach stretched out for the banquet saturday night (planning is important
:-)) ).
Hope to see y'all there and have a good flight home!
Blue skies,
the Eggman
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..)
TAIL: ----------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Regarding the post requesting if there have been any up-grades to the RV-4
since 1987, I can report that there have been. It's called the RV-6. Some
assembly required.
Just couldn't resist!
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
A question on priming....
Has anyone tried the reusable aerosol cans available from Chief
Airparts or JC Whitney? They sell for around $17.00 and include several
spare nozzels. It looks like you fill it up with paint, pump in some
air pressure, and spray. Its "sounds" good, but will it work ????
Ed Cole
RV6 Empannage on the way..
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: strength of pneumatic squeezer |
I have the opportunity to swap my 3000lb. pneumatic rivet squeezer for
a 6000lb. version. The 6000lb. squeezer is bigger and bulkier on the
downside. My question is, is it worth the swap ? I haven't started my RV-4
yet so I don't know if it is even necessary to have such a powerful squeezer
and suffer the effects of a heavier less maneuverable squeezer. I'm not going
to build my spar (I'm buying the Phlogiston spar) so disregard that aspect of
construction. I want to maximumly utilize my squeezer, so I'd appreciate any
advice !
Bryan Grossman
RV-4 preview plans
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Fuel tanks, again! |
Fellow Listers and especially Dave Barnhart:
Dave---
Congrats on succesfully completing your tanks. I am about to start sealing
mine and although I know we have probably beaten this subject to death, here's
a
couple more questions:
1) Do you have an opinion on applying Proseal with a "caulking gun" type tool
(I believe A/C Spruce sells them).
2) Did you lay a bead on the "outside" of the rib flange after riveting?
--------------------------- (skin)
proseal ?? --->) ----- (flange_
|
| } rib
|
|
3) How did you pressure test the tanks? (I hope you haven't already posted
this, but I may have missed it.
4) Was one qt of proseal from Van's enough?
5) Do you initially inbed the fuel drain flange in a little Preseal and then
rivet in place and then clean off the excess?
Thanks again for your help!
Doug
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: rv-8 picture from www |
Don't feel bad. I tried to get them, too. The holodeck ftp server kept
closing the connection on me. I could only get three of them successfully.
- Alan
On Mon, 28 Aug 1995 aol.com!JIMNJAC(at)matronics.com wrote:
> pictures?what pictures. i aint got no stinking pictures!! i tried to download
> the rv-8 pictures from www.earthlink and from holodeck.jpl all i got was
> picture courtesy of brian. i know this is not a computor user group forum so
> please don't flame me. and if the explanation on how to access it would be
> too long, please direct me to the proper forum...thanks ...jimnjac(at)aol.com
> rv-4 under construction....hillsboro or.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: strength of pneumatic squeezer (fwd) |
The 3,000 lb version will smash your fingers just as well as the 6,000 lb.
version. You need something that is easy to hold and use and you are
just dimpling .025 and .032 AL and mostly 3/32 and 1/8 rivits.
You don't need some mamoth squezer to do that.
Herman
> Subject: Re: strength of pneumatic squeezer
>
> I have the opportunity to swap my 3000lb. pneumatic rivet squeezer for
> a 6000lb. version. The 6000lb. squeezer is bigger and bulkier on the
> downside. My question is, is it worth the swap ? I haven't started my RV-4
> yet so I don't know if it is even necessary to have such a powerful squeezer
> and suffer the effects of a heavier less maneuverable squeezer. I'm not going
> to build my spar (I'm buying the Phlogiston spar) so disregard that aspect of
> construction. I want to maximumly utilize my squeezer, so I'd appreciate any
> advice !
>
> Bryan Grossman
> RV-4 preview plans
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tanks, again! |
>Fellow Listers and especially Dave Barnhart:
>
>Dave---
>
>Congrats on succesfully completing your tanks. I am about to start sealing
>mine and although I know we have probably beaten this subject to death, here's
>a
>couple more questions:
>
>1) Do you have an opinion on applying Proseal with a "caulking gun" type tool
>(I believe A/C Spruce sells them).
Bingelis mentions Sealpak Co, 2614 S. Hoover, Wicita, KS 67215.
316-942-6211 {caution - but this is old info.}
>
>2) Did you lay a bead on the "outside" of the rib flange after riveting?
>
> --------------------------- (skin)
> proseal ?? --->) ----- (flange_
> |
> | } rib
> |
> |
Yes ... Bingelis calls for a "generous fillet" in this location, and shows
a 3/8 inch dimension on his drawings. He also shows a 1/2 inch dimension
for the equivalent fillet on the 'inside' of the flange [where the word
"flange" is in your drawing] as well as covering the entire flange of the
rib with Proseal. Check out his column in the June 1988 'Sport Aviation'
for his way of sealing fuel tanks.
... Gil Alexander, #20701, RV6A, N64GA ... aft fus. decking
>
>3) How did you pressure test the tanks? (I hope you haven't already posted
>this, but I may have missed it.
>
>4) Was one qt of proseal from Van's enough?
>
>5) Do you initially inbed the fuel drain flange in a little Preseal and then
>rivet in place and then clean off the excess?
Yes.
>
>Thanks again for your help!
>
>Doug
>
>
>doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel tanks, again! |
Doug:
IMHO: 1. The only way to do the fuel tanks is with a caulking gun. I
have one to lend to those builders in Southern California.
IMHO: 2. After riveting per Van's instructions with the faying
surfaces Prosealed, I"fillet" around the rivets and flanges. I think
that this is the way to go. This way it is like a belt and
suspenders. If a spot is missed one way, the other should get it.
3. I placed 37 degree caps on the outlet, screwed a gauge into the
sump drain and used a 37 degree "Parker Push lock" fitting and hose on
the vent to pressurize the tank. The tank was inflated through the
hose and a Philips screwdriver used as a plug in the hose. The
exterior was "snooped" (soapy water) to check for leaks. I would like
to suggest checking FAR 23 (I think it is 23.972) for the FAA
recommend criteria. I let my tanks set for 36 hours and also watched
the gauge. Tighten the nut on the bottom of your fuel cap until it
does not leak. If it leaks air, it will leak fuel in flight.
4. 1 qt of proseal is enough. If you would like to use the caulking
gun, empty cartridges, plungers and nozzles can be purchased from U.S.
Industrial Tools. The disposable cartridge is less than $2. Get at
least 10.
5. That will work, but just smearing it on, riveting, and fillet
sealing may not be as messy.
The above techniques have be used successfully on 3 flying RV's and 1
what is almost read to fly. Do not forget to scuff the aluminum
before cleaning and applying the proseal.
Gary RV-6 20480 N-157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Fuel tanks, again!
Date: 8/29/95 10:49 AM
Fellow Listers and especially Dave Barnhart:
Dave---
Congrats on succesfully completing your tanks. I am about to start sealing
mine and although I know we have probably beaten this subject to death, here's
a
couple more questions:
1) Do you have an opinion on applying Proseal with a "caulking gun" type tool
(I believe A/C Spruce sells them).
2) Did you lay a bead on the "outside" of the rib flange after riveting?
--------------------------- (skin)
proseal ?? --->) ----- (flange_
|
| } rib
|
|
3) How did you pressure test the tanks? (I hope you haven't already posted
this, but I may have missed it.
4) Was one qt of proseal from Van's enough?
5) Do you initially inbed the fuel drain flange in a little Preseal and then
rivet in place and then clean off the excess?
Thanks again for your help!
Doug
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Priming the interior surfaces |
Bob Haan wrote:
> Van's suggested priming with Sherwin Williams acid etch which is two parts:
> 1. Industrial Wash Primer PP60G2.
> 2. Wash Primer Catalyst Reducer R7K44.
>
> Van's and others suggested first cleaning with "Alum-a-prep."
>
> The supplier here recommmended by several builders here says Alumaprep's
> name has been changed by PPG to "ALUMINUM CLEANER" PPG # DX533.
>
> Does anyone know if this is the correct material to prep for Sherwin
> Williams acid etch?
>
> Other recommendations for priming?
I am using the PPG DX533 Aluminum Cleaner but am using it with the PPG
primer. I don't know if it will work with the Sherwin Williams primer
but I assume it would.
My priming sequence is as follows (all PPG products):
1. DX533 Aluminum Cleaner (cleaning etch)
2. DX501 Aluminum Conditioner ("alodyne")
3. DX1791/DX1792 primer/catalyst (self-etching primer)
I'm using the yellow color primer (I think they may have another color)
which gives a nice thin gold-colored finish which goes on well and looks
very nice.
Carl Weston
RV-6 23876 empennage control surfaces
wing kit on order
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | Re: 3/32" Flush Pop Rivets -Reply |
Hi Don,
I'm not sure I know what a tube rivet is. I called B & F. They don't know
what a tube rivet is either. They said these are "Pop" brand rivets, and
they cross reference to Cherry (although they didn't know which one).
Here is how they describe them:
AK32BS - Aluminum Countersunk Carbon Steel Mandrel, Breaking stem.
Grip Range = .031-.125
Ultimate Shear = 125 lb.
Ultimate Tensile = 175 lb.
Price per 100 = 16.60.
Add 15% for quantities < 100.
>>> DMeehan @ SMTP (Don Meehan)
{coopext.cahe.wsu.edu!meehan(at)matronics.com} 08/25/95 09:26pm >>>
Greg,
Are those tube rivets, cherry Max or what? What do they cost?
>In case any of you are looking for 3/32" flush pop-rivets for those
>hard-to-buck skinning applications, B & F A/C Supply (815
469-2473)sells
>them (P/N AK32B2).
>
>Greg Tipsword
>Aligning wing trailing edge surfaces.
>
>
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, EDWARD COLE wrote:
> Has anyone tried the reusable aerosol cans available from Chief
> Airparts or JC Whitney?
I've never met an owner of one who was happy with it.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Firewall Cutout Box too large (RV-6 -6A only) |
There could be a problem with one of the lower inside motor mount bolts
being too close to the heavy angle it attaches to if the inside vertical
angles on the firewall are moved farther apart to make room for the
oversized firewall cutout box that Van's supplys. What looks likely to
work the best comes from Leo Davies down under: Keep the angles 8" apart
at the bottom and spread them apart at the top as necessary to allow the
box to fit between them. This will not cause any extra work (assuming
you haven't already drilled the angles to the firewall) other possibly a
little bit of shimming required between the angles and the battery box
front at the top two bolts for it. It should also not be observable that
you have done such a thing.
FKJ
PS. This will not be in the new revision of the instructions on the web
which should be available in a week or two.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu (Richard Ernst) |
What are people out there using to repair (reasonably) minor dents and
other damage to completed assemblies? I was inventorying my wing kit, when
one of the wing tips (which are beautiful and shiny, by the way) slipped,
striking my recently completed trim tab close to the trailing edge on the
bottom. Can or should this be repaired with Bondo/body filler, etc? I
estimate that about a teaspoonful or two of the stuff should level out the
tab skin surface. The weight penalty should be tiny, and I can't imagine
that there is any structural compromise in using filler here. I don't
especially want to build a new tab. Any ideas?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard M. Ernst ernstrm(at)alpha.hendrix.edu
Department of Physics office: (501) 450-3808
Hendrix College fax: (501) 450-1200
1601 Harkrider St.
Conway, AR 72032-3080
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Damage control |
You write: What are people out there using to repair (reasonably) minor dents
and
other damage to completed assemblies?
You could try to pull the dent out with a dent puller and then pop a rivet in
the hole. Less filler would be required that way. Use Microlight filler and
West System Epoxy to smooth out the surface. Be sure to re-balance the
elevator after your repair it.
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Re[3]: Tip-up Canopy Construction Question |
Gil
I too seem to be having mail problems. What I post gets distributed
to the members with about six bounces to myself and Matronics. Some
folks are not able to receive I guess. I am using cc:Mail on a UNIX
server. I will send this to you direct as well as posting it.
>Did you also add a rivet here, or just have the canopy rest on this
>block?? I presume this is the F-632A part.
The nylon spacer was pop-riveted to the roll over structure brace. I
used my deburring tool to make a very deep countersink. The rivet head
is well clear of the Plexiglas. I can't remember the part number.
>I've seen some guys add a small angle piece on the outside to
>give something to pull on. Did you do this?
The drawings show a .063 3/4 angle riveted to the side. This
will be needed to open the canopy. I cut a slot in the canopy
frame so that the flange is on the inside, nicely out of
sight.
>one of the satisfying bits was sculpting the curved wing tips from
>surfboard foam, and then fairing them into the wood so no transition
>can be seen. This was hot stuff in 1976 :^)
Now that the canopy fairing is done, the results justify the effort.
I complained because it was my first experience with fiberglass and
the part was small with convex surfaces. I figure that the next
parts will go easier. The wing tips for my tapered wing are
something that I am looking forward to. Have you seen the wing
fuselage fairings that appear on some of the RVs at Oshkosh? I think
that I will learn to love convex surfaces.
On the topic of fairings, the fin/stabilizer intersection fairing
ends rather roughly just under the stabilizer leading edge. The
lower surface typically carries negative pressures. I feel that
this intersection should be blended smoothly from the leading edge
where it meets the upper intersection fairing, aft to the maximum
thickness of the airfoil section.
>Did you also add a fairing from left to right over the joint between
>the moving and fixed canopy portions? About 50% of those at Oshkosh
>had one. It seems to cover up some less-than-tidy stuff, and may
>help reduce wind and water entry.
I haven't yet but I may have to. The caution that I wrote about
earlier regarding how the aft edge of the plastic should snug up to
the radiused corners of the fuselage came from my error. When the
canopy was split fore and aft the gap at the sides opened up .3
inches. Sooner or later that aft edge will fit, this was how. Either
I will fill the gap with proseal or I will add a fairing strip.
>What tool did you use to trim the edge of the rear canopy cutout??
>this trimming needs to be neat since it's highly visible, and being
>curved, my favorite edge planing tools won't work.
I used snips to trim the skin and a file to smooth the edges of the
cut. A deburring scraper finished off the edge. The finished edge is
smooth but not 100%. On straight edges I get good results with a
Vixen file. What is an edge planing tool?
>However, it is unfortunately also 8 3/64 inches wide due to the
>build up of layers at the welded seams. Since my firewall was
>already built and riveted to the plans given 8 inch dimension between
>the two central upright 3/4 inch angles, it wouldn't fit :^(
>Since it's welded into a sturdy box shape, it can't be flexed to make
>it fit :^(
I got the flat pattern firewall box from Van last year. The metal is soft
and easy to deform. I can't speak for the welded structure, but I did
"work" mine quit a bit before it fit. If it doesn't fit use a bigger
hammer :)
The flat pattern had an additional advantage for me. I am rather tall so I
mounted the overhead rudder pedals two inches further forward than the
drawings showed. They interfered with the standard depth of the box. I
solved this by leaving the sides unriveted and stretching the lower edge
down to meet the battery box. The existing sides no longer fit so they
were replaced with new material. The centre bearing block was shortened
where it meets the aft wall of the box. Everything fits, looks great and
provides adequate clearance for the governor and oil filter.
Dave Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven Kimura <kimuras(at)PEAK.ORG> |
| Subject: | Primers yet again |
OK. I read all the back postings about primers, and I'm
still in the dark.
1. I was ready to order Alumiprep and Alodyne, and in the
Aircraft Spruce catalog, there are TWO kinds:
Alumiprep No. 33
Alodine No. 1001
Improved Metal Prep #79
Alodine #1201 (for use with #79)
What is everyone using, and is this "improved" stuff
really better?
2. I remember way back talk about stamping parts with
the id before priming, with some little letter/number
stamps from H.F. Is that a good idea?
3. I was gonna order some spay can zinc chromate, and
there's this other stuff called zinc oxide, that
is supposed to be as good but safer. Has this been
tried?
Steve Kimura
RV-6A; pickup tail tomorrow!
kimuras(at)peak.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Info on paints and their effects |
The following is from a local Milwaukee R/C newsletter.
With all the talks of paints and primers, I thought it may be of interest.
Please excuse any typos, as I had to scan this is from pretty bad copy.
don mack
rv-6a (extending those arms to close the botom wing skin).
Safety Information
Regarding Paints
by David Dale Houston Texas
You're absolutely correct with your concerns about the safety
of paints. In general, all two-part paints are capable of cata-
lyzing in the lungs, coating the alveoli and suffocating you.
There is little a hospital can do for someone in this condition.
Epoxies have the additional hazard of causing systematic
sensitization resulting in allergic reactions. The reactions can
be of the skin or respiratory system. This applies to all
epoxies-glue and paint. This category includes the follow-
ing substances:
Zinc Chromate is a one-part primer for aluminum. It is a
known carcinogen, including "experimental cancers" accord-
ing to the label. The solvent is tulol, also hazardous. Epoxy
chromate primers have the combined hazards of zinc chro-
mate and epoxies. The dust created when sanding will, cause
a sore throat, headache, and overall flu-like symptoms and
general body pain. I found this out first hand.
Catalyzed acrylic enamels like DuPont Centari have solvent
hazards and the above mentioned catalyzing hazard. Centari
may be used with or without the catalyzing Gloss Hardener,
but it is not very fuel resistant without it.
Imron and other polyurthanes are polyisocyanate com-
pounds. They can kill you by either the cyanide action or the
coating of your lung and catalyzing in them. I know one man
who has a severe allergic reaction to Imron by just getting it
on his skin.
By comparison, lacquers and dopes aren't so bad. In I halation
of concentrated dope vapors cancause brain hemorrhage and
kidney damage. Most of the thinners and cleaning solvents
will pass through the skin and collect in the liver and kidneys.
Acetone alone isn't terribly dangerous. in small amounts, as.
it occurs in the body naturally. However, as it soaks through
your skin, it will carry other things with it into the blood-
stream. Clean your hands with a good waterless hand cleaner
instead of thinner. Epoxy glues can be removed with metha-
nol or rubbing alcohol if hand cleaner won't get them off. At
this time, alcohol is considered safer than acetone. Lacquer
thinner and dope thinner contain MEK which seek your liver
once in your body. It is a known carcinogen.
Vinyl or latex examination gloves are available inexpen-
sively through medical supply stores and will protect your
hands from most of the above hazards including trying to get
the products off your skin. The only acceptable respirators
are those rated for Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs).
They cost more, but the cheaper ones just don't protect you
even if you don't smell the odor. Continue covering your skin
as well. The best protection is to avoid the contact to begin
with.
I hope everyone heeds this warning. Most of the information
has been gleaned from product labels. Some of it came from
a physician familiar with the products and part was from first
hand experiences. I handle these products almost every day.
from "The Rams Horn"
Charles Kalupa, Editor
4356 S. 16th St.
Milwaukee, WI 53221
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Info on paints and their effects |
Don Mack writes:
>
>
> Safety Information
> Regarding Paints
>
> by David Dale Houston Texas
>
> You're absolutely correct with your concerns about the safety
> of paints. In general, all two-part paints are capable of cata-
> lyzing in the lungs, coating the alveoli and suffocating you.
> There is little a hospital can do for someone in this condition.
Given the scariness of the health hazards I would say, Is it worth saving
$1000-$2000 on a paint job for your new airplane? I think not. When my plane
is done, I plan to park it at a professional paint shop and pay them to spray
it. They have the proper equipment and can do a nicer job than is possible
in a home shop. We must be careful not to sacrifice our good health for the sakeof
saving a few dollars. The cost a a pro paint job will be forgotten in a few
years, but a failed liver or lung cancer will cost far more than the paint.
Ok, I'll get of the soapbox now.
Mike Graves
RV-6A plans all over the floor
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Primers yet again (fwd) |
I don't have a ACS book here but here is my guess.
I think the 'Metal Prep 79' is for use on steel parts (Not AL).
I think it is just stronger phosphoric acid.
There are two types of Alodine around, one gives the 'golden' color
and the other gives a 'clear' (ie no color). It should say this
in the description of it in the catalog.
Most folks use the alodine that gives the golden color, I think
it is the 1201.
I did stamp a few parts so I could keep track of where they go.
In general I would not scratch or put marks on parts, esp. critical
strength parts.
Another method is to mark them with the Sharpie Perm ink markers
on some place that will not show like on a rib flange.
This will normally show through the primer. Just don't wash/clean
it off. Usually, there is enough difference in the holes in
the parts that they will only fit back together one way so it
just takes a little time to sort them out.
>
> OK. I read all the back postings about primers, and I'm
> still in the dark.
>
> 1. I was ready to order Alumiprep and Alodyne, and in the
> Aircraft Spruce catalog, there are TWO kinds:
> Alumiprep No. 33
> Alodine No. 1001
> Improved Metal Prep #79
> Alodine #1201 (for use with #79)
>
> What is everyone using, and is this "improved" stuff
> really better?
>
> 2. I remember way back talk about stamping parts with
> the id before priming, with some little letter/number
> stamps from H.F. Is that a good idea?
>
> 3. I was gonna order some spay can zinc chromate, and
> there's this other stuff called zinc oxide, that
> is supposed to be as good but safer. Has this been
> tried?
>
> Steve Kimura
> RV-6A; pickup tail tomorrow!
> kimuras(at)peak.org
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts |
Text item:
Mike Graves posts:
> Given the scariness of the health hazards I would
> say, Is it worth saving $1000-$2000 on a paint job
> for your new airplane?
Mike,
I wish it was only $1k-$2k! Here in the Hillsboro
area, I've heard of quotes on new homebuilts in the
$5k-$6k range. That kind of money can buy a full
repaint job (strip, prep, etc.) on an airplane. It
appears that painting quotes are very "sticky upward"
regardless of the reduced labor and materials involved
in painting a new homebuilt. Of course the price
includes materials, but we're still talking more than
a $1k-$2k difference. Ouch!
I actually know about this kind of thing from my
college days as a house painter; we always bid the
easy "little or no-prep jobs" high and it usually
didn't matter to the customer. They were very
desireable jobs!
Anyone have any favorable quotes from a respected
shop.
Cal N66VR (RV-6 in progress)
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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:29:48 PDT
Subject: Info on paints and their effects
From: Michael Graves <ptdcs2.intel.com!mgraves(at)matronics.com>
A26711
0
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts |
>
> I wish it was only $1k-$2k! Here in the Hillsboro
> area, I've heard of quotes on new homebuilts in the
> $5k-$6k range. That kind of money can buy a full
> repaint job (strip, prep, etc.) on an airplane. It
> appears that painting quotes are very "sticky upward"
> regardless of the reduced labor and materials involved
> in painting a new homebuilt. Of course the price
> includes materials, but we're still talking more than
> a $1k-$2k difference. Ouch!
>
>
Only a fool would pay that much for paint. Any car guy will do a
great paint job for less than half of that. Automotine paint is (in
most cases) the same as aircraft paint. I know somebody that got an
absolutly stunning, show quality paint job on a car restoration project
for $3500.00. This included all of the body work, priming, paint
color-sanding and buffing. Also included was, all of the work in the
trunk area and engine compartment. It looks like it just rolled out of
the show-room, and it hasnt been there for over 30 years. This was one
of the higher bids.
I know there are some of you out there saying "...airplanes are not
cars...". The big difference here is not what is being painted, but
who is paying for the work. Airplane people generally have more money
and are used to paying BIG $$. Don't be a sucker.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts |
Paint:
In Southern California a C-150 paint job goes for $4K. A 4 color RV-4 was
$3,500 in 1990 and the builder did all the prep. Jerry (RV-6 in 85 days) Scott
told me that he spent over 100 hours painting his latest airplane and he still
spent $1.7K on material. He advised me to spend the time and do it right the
first time. He told me to either pay a professional (not a friend helping a
friend) or to do it myself.
Hope that this helps.
Gary
20480 RV-6 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts
CCGATE
Date: 8/31/95 5:29 PM
Text item:
Mike Graves posts:
> Given the scariness of the health hazards I would
> say, Is it worth saving $1000-$2000 on a paint job
> for your new airplane?
Mike,
I wish it was only $1k-$2k! Here in the Hillsboro
area, I've heard of quotes on new homebuilts in the
$5k-$6k range. That kind of money can buy a full
repaint job (strip, prep, etc.) on an airplane. It
appears that painting quotes are very "sticky upward"
regardless of the reduced labor and materials involved
in painting a new homebuilt. Of course the price
includes materials, but we're still talking more than
a $1k-$2k difference. Ouch!
I actually know about this kind of thing from my
college days as a house painter; we always bid the
easy "little or no-prep jobs" high and it usually
didn't matter to the customer. They were very
desireable jobs!
Anyone have any favorable quotes from a respected
shop.
Cal N66VR (RV-6 in progress)
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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 15:29:48 PDT
Subject: Info on paints and their effects
From: Michael Graves <ptdcs2.intel.com!mgraves(at)matronics.com>
A26711
0
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Info on paints and their effects |
> Given the scariness of the health hazards I would say, Is it worth saving
> $1000-$2000 on a paint job for your new airplane?
Remember, though, the purpoase of all those scary warings is not to scare
you away from painting your own airplane, but to scare you INTEO taking
the appropriate precautions.
I've sprayed automotive paints before. I've even sprayed Imron. My wife
can attest to the fact that if I show signs of goofiness or dimentia, it
was there LONG before I first touched a spray gun :-) The reason is that
I take the proper precautions.
I plan to paint my RV-6 myself. I'll do so in my garage, wearing a
forced-air respirator, body suit, and gloves. In other words, using the
same equipment that the proffessional uses. Develop a relationship with
your local DuPont or PPG dealer. He is a wonderful source of information
and educational materials. Pick a paint system (Imron, Centauri, etc),
buy a sample quart, and practice.
I'll probably not use Imron, but for a different reason. I really like
the 'wet look' of imron, but when it's very difficult to repair.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Earl W Brabandt <Earl_W_Brabandt(at)ccm.jf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re[2]: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts |
Text item:
Chris sez...
> Only a fool would pay that much for paint. Any car guy will do a
> great paint job for less than half of that.
> Chris,
Upon consideration of ALL of the issues and not just price, a
"fool" may in fact quite wisely elect to poney-up the bucks
and use an aircraft paint shop. There is more to consider
than price before a plan to paint a homebuilt can be
realized. There is an obvious problem with having an
automotive painter paint your homebuilt -- how do you get the
airplane to the painter or the painter to the airplane and
provide an environment suitable for painting? Delivering the
airplane to the painter's shop in pieces is undesirable; it
is inconvenient and likely to damage the aircraft because
airplane assemblies are difficult to transport safely. If
you have the painter work in your hangar, you risk many of
the hazards discussed in previous postings and you risk the
wrath of you hangar neighbors. Painting an airplane in close
proximity to other hangars will not win popularity contests.
In fact, it's simply prohibited by law, regulation, or
rental/lease agreements in most places.
It's more likely that a garage could be used without
incurring such social pressures, but again, the home garage
is not the best place to paint an airplane. I'm not saying
that it isn't done quite successfully, I'm just saying that
the whole idea doesn't thrill me for the reasons that we've
been discussing.
I'm not at all concerned with the competency of automotive
painters and the quality of their materials. I just don't
know of a very satisfactory way to use them. I'm sure the
aircraft painters realize that our alternatives are less than
satisfactory -- hence the high price tag for their services.
Cal RV-6 N66VR (in progress)
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Subject: Re: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts
From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 08:00:45 -0700
1)
________________________________________________________________________________
Although I belive it's possible to spend a lot on a do it yourself
paint job, I suspect it's not necessary.
Assuming compressor and paint gun are already puchased, it
seems like the big ticket items are paint, primer and protective
mask.
I haven't followed the pricing of all the primers people
have talked about here.
My mask was $20; it had a carbon filter and some fiberous material.
I opened my garage door when I painted my truck. I should and
probably will pay more attention to what I'm exposing myself
to when it comes time to paint a plane. I was comfortable
with my approach as it was suggested by the paint dealer and I
felt fine while painting (taking the mask off for even a few
minutes did give me a headache though). Using an HVLP probably
also helped.
My truck painting costs were about $100/gal for a good paint with all
the additives. I put several coats on and still didn't use
a whole gallon (another advantage of HVLP).
My truck has about 1/2 the surface area of an RV.
That's $200 for paint, plus primer plus protective mask.
Seems like I should be able to do a two-tone job for under $500
(maybe way under). Costs would be less than double w/o HVLP.
My point is: Although I could spend a lot more, it's not mandatory
and I won't. I'd just like to keep things in perspective in case
someone out there doesn't know and is thinking... gee, can I really
afford an rv?
I love the rv-list... I think it's existance is even a factor
in selecting a homebuilt to build, but sometimes it seems like
the discussions lean toward building award winning planes. That's
great, as long as nobody gets wrongly scared off.
Build it, and it will fly,
Don
PS I hope I don't eat these words, I haven't even ordered my tail
kit yet (I can't hold back much longer though).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: Paint shop quotes for homebuilts |
>
> Upon consideration of ALL of the issues and not just price, a
> "fool" may in fact quite wisely elect to poney-up the bucks
> and use an aircraft paint shop. There is more to consider
> than price before a plan to paint a homebuilt can be
> realized. There is an obvious problem with having an
> automotive painter paint your homebuilt -- how do you get the
> airplane to the painter or the painter to the airplane and
> provide an environment suitable for painting? Delivering the
> airplane to the painter's shop in pieces is undesirable; it
> is inconvenient and likely to damage the aircraft because
> airplane assemblies are difficult to transport safely.
Unless you are building at the airport in a hangar, you will have to
take this step. Most builders that I know are building in the
"home hangar".
I would bet that one could have an airplane air-lifted by helicopter
for less than $3000.00.
> If
> you have the painter work in your hangar, you risk many of
> the hazards discussed in previous postings and you risk the
> wrath of you hangar neighbors. Painting an airplane in close
> proximity to other hangars will not win popularity contests.
> In fact, it's simply prohibited by law, regulation, or
> rental/lease agreements in most places.
>
Ever notice how many hangars have paint on the floor? This
could be from days gone by when the lawyers were less likely to
attack, but I would guess that alot of it is recent vintage.
> It's more likely that a garage could be used without
> incurring such social pressures, but again, the home garage
> is not the best place to paint an airplane. I'm not saying
> that it isn't done quite successfully, I'm just saying that
> the whole idea doesn't thrill me for the reasons that we've
> been discussing.
>
I agree with that one. Being a person who has used paint
products in an un-healthy way, I don't recomend useing any pro
paint products without proper protection.
> I'm not at all concerned with the competency of automotive
> painters and the quality of their materials. I just don't
> know of a very satisfactory way to use them. I'm sure the
> aircraft painters realize that our alternatives are less than
> satisfactory -- hence the high price tag for their services.
>
Yup. Whatever the market will bear. I guess I just don't like
being "burnt" by anybody when it comes to paying for a service or
product. I never pay list/asking price for anything (except
grocerys, etc). Call me "cheep", but "haggeling" is almost a lost
art. One must have options to argue price successfully.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Hi guys,
There is a factor of do-it yourself paint jobs that hasn't been mentioned.
Aside from the obvious health hazards and public nuisance, I remember
painting 3 cars in my garage and none of them turned out good enough to satisfy
me. The reason: There was no exhaust system to carry the paint overspray off
into a filter mechanism. The overspray which dried quickly settled back into
to wet paint and created a rough texture that took a lot of rubbing out to get
a decent finish. Ever try rubbing out enamel 8-). I've concluded that copious
volumes of fresh air must flow through the "chamber" to arrest the overspray.
The next obvious problem is that with this fresh air comes dust, dirt, bugs
(I don't know why, but bugs love fresh paint!). Has anybody successfully sovled
this airflow/filtering problem??
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO) |
| Subject: | Re: 3/32" Flush Pop Rivets -Reply -Reply |
Hi Don,
I'm not sure I know what a tube rivet is. I called B & F. They don't know
what a tube rivet is either. They said these are "Pop" brand rivets, and
they cross reference to Cherry (although they didn't know which one).
Here is how they describe them:
AK32BS - Aluminum Countersunk Carbon Steel Mandrel, Breaking stem.
Grip Range = .031-.125
Ultimate Shear = 125 lb.
Ultimate Tensile = 175 lb.
Price per 100 = 16.60.
Add 15% for quantities < 100.
>>> DMeehan @ SMTP (Don Meehan)
{coopext.cahe.wsu.edu!meehan(at)matronics.com} 08/25/95 09:26pm >>>
Greg,
Are those tube rivets, cherry Max or what? What do they cost?
>In case any of you are looking for 3/32" flush pop-rivets for those
>hard-to-buck skinning applications, B & F A/C Supply (815
469-2473)sells
>them (P/N AK32B2).
>
>Greg Tipsword
>Aligning wing trailing edge surfaces.
>
>
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> Hi guys,
> There is a factor of do-it yourself paint jobs that hasn't been mentioned.
Aside from the obvious health hazards and public nuisance, I remember
> painting 3 cars in my garage and none of them turned out good enough to satisfy
> me. The reason: There was no exhaust system to carry the paint overspray off
> into a filter mechanism. The overspray which dried quickly settled back into
> to wet paint and created a rough texture that took a lot of rubbing out to get
> a decent finish. Ever try rubbing out enamel 8-). I've concluded that copious
> volumes of fresh air must flow through the "chamber" to arrest the overspray.
> The next obvious problem is that with this fresh air comes dust, dirt, bugs
> (I don't know why, but bugs love fresh paint!). Has anybody successfully sovled
> this airflow/filtering problem??
>
Short and quick....Exhaust fans at one end and "swamp cooler" filters
at the other end. Water the filters and the floor of the "paint-booth"
Works great. No bugs, dust dog/cat hare or overspray.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curtis Smith <Curtis_Smith(at)ccm.al.intel.com> |
Text item:
Box fans and furnace filters! Line the box fans up in the opening of your garage
door and roll down the garage door them to make a seal - exhausting outward. Use
card board to block the rest of the opening. Use the furnace filters in a
doorway - I'm lucky enough to have one open to the backyard.
Its been of few years but this is the method I used for for a few laquer jobs I
did. Even with laquer you need to use a good mask - I used only a bandana once
and got vey drunk off of the fumes and then had one heck of a hangover the next.
The most important thing to making it look though is the gun. I've learned the
hard way. The best is a remote paint tank with its own and low pressure air
regulator (too many paint jobs ruined by paint dripping from the cup). Also,
don't make the mistake of putting your airline filter on the compressor like I
did - unless you like fish eyes where the paint won't stick :-). Ideally, you
want your filter at the bottom of a vertical length of metal tubing so there air
is chilled good before passing through the filter.
Curt Smith. (Cleaning the garage to make room for an RV8 project).
>Hi guys,
>There is a factor of do-it yourself paint jobs that hasn't been mentioned.
>Aside from the obvious health hazards and public nuisance, I remember
>painting 3 cars in my garage and none of them turned out good enough to
>satisfy me. The reason: There was no exhaust system to carry the paint
>overspray off into a filter mechanism. The overspray which dried quickly
>settled back into to wet paint and created a rough texture that took a lot of
>rubbing out to get a decent finish. Ever try rubbing out enamel 8-). I've
>concluded that copious volumes of fresh air must flow through the "chamber" to
>arrest the overspray. The next obvious problem is that with this fresh air
>comes dust, dirt, bugs (I don't know why, but bugs love fresh paint!). Has
>anybody successfully sovled this airflow/filtering problem??
Mike Graves
RV-6A
Text item: External Message Header
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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 95 11:57:37 PDT
Subject: painting
From: Michael Graves <ptdcs2.intel.com!mgraves(at)matronics.com>
A10450
)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aircraft Painting |
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
I recall from my early years as an aircraft maintenance officer in the Air
Force that aircraft paint facilities were usually equipped with waterfalls,
air filtration systems, and filtered exhaust systems. Ambient air is
drawn through the filtration system and moved through the facility from
wall to wall, drawn through the waterfall, and exhausted, again through a
filtration system, back into the atmosphere. The water was also filtered.
These features were not just window dressing; they were needed to keep
contaminants out of wet paint, to prevent unwanted overspray, and to
capture paint spray products, both liquid and solid, from the air before
exhausting it. The same features would be found in smaller paint shops
used for painting aircraft component parts after depot-level repair. My
guess is that aircraft painting facilities in general aviation may be
similarly equipped for the protection of the painters and the environment
as well as the aircraft (although I have never seen one).
It costs money to operate such a facility. The operator faces
environmental issues, industrial safety issues, and, of course, quality
issues. Painting an aircraft yourself in a garage could turn out to be a
August 14, 1995 - September 01, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ap