RV-Archive.digest.vol-aq
September 01, 1995 - September 22, 1995
real bummer for any one of those reasons. I know people have done it and
produced good looking paint jobs. At my experience level, I have trouble
getting a good looking paint job on a stabilizer rib, much less on the
underside of a wing or fuselage. I'll shop around to make sure I have a
competent and reasonably priced painter with plenty of aircraft experience
and a good facility, then shell out the dough after I'm satisfied with
some examples of his work.
I remember one time when we were assigned a new painter in our squadron.
He was an automotive painter assigned to fill an aircraft painter's job.
He was eager. He started out doing some paint trim on an aircraft canopy
frame by sanding off the old paint, Alclad and all! This is only a sample
of one, mind you, but if I had to have an automotive painter paint my
aircraft, I wouldn't let him out of my sight. The last thing I need is a
nice smooth paint job over my static port.
Just one man's point of view. Good luck to you all.
Jack Abell
RV-6A vert stab
________________________________________________________________________________
ultralight-flight(at)ms.uky.edu
Can someone send the information on how to subscribe to the list to:
wapiya(at)jlc.net
I've lost my info
thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
Very interesting! Couple of pointers. When you are using base/clear coat
from du-pont, you should use a "regular" gun (not hvlp) for the clear coat
if you want a good flow out and mirror finish such as is possible with single
stage polyurethanes such as Imron or Alumigrip. Other wise it will look
like the finish you see on today's cars. Go take a close look at a new
Chevy's paint job. "Buffing it out" is easy to talk about!
If you actually start to paint by 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning you can do it
in your garage (or driveway) and not worry about bugs or dust! Good idea
to wet the floor or driveway though. Clear coat or single stage paint
requires reducer after noontime, unless you live in the North, or its
wintertime! If you can do it in the driveway you don't even have to worry
about fans, filters, etc.
Paint your airplane in severals sessions, e.g. 1 wing (possibly 2) in one
session, control surfaces in another, fuselage in another, etc.
Connect your compressor pressure output to a 2 foot length of plastic
plumbing pipe 3 or 4 inches in diameter (lay it on the floor) and then to a
vertical 1 inch plastic pipe about a foot long, and then to your air hose.
This will guarantee no water droplets coming out the nozzle of your gun on
to your beautifil mirror finish.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
Subject: | Camas,WA airport closure (Grove Field) |
FIRST my appologies to the world outside of the Portland, OR / Vancouver, WA
area for broadcasting this to the rv-list. I lost the address to the
pdx-rv-list(at)somewhere.something. Be that as it may..
Need help from Washington and Oregon pilots.
The Port of Washougal, is making an effort to close Grove Field in
Camas WA (east of the Evergreen airport in Vancouver). This comes
on the heals of the closure of the Clark County Airport in
Vancouver and there is already a 2-3 year waiting list to get a
hanger in this area.
During the Portland EAA Chapter 105 Breakfast saturday morning Sep
2nd, David Valaer stopped in to ask our help in this matter.
He is trying to organize a show of support for the airport and
handed out the following information:
++++++
There will be a meeting next wednesday, Sep 6 at 7:00 pm, at the
Clark County Public Utility Division offices on 89 C Street in
Washougal to discuss the possible closure of Grove Field.
We must show our support for aviation! You can help in the
following ways:
1. Attend the meeting wed Sep 6 at 7:00 pm. If you desire to
FLY IN we will have a shuttle leaving Grove Field (Camas Airport)
at 6:45 pm to take you to the meeting.
2. Write the Port of Camas-Washougal Commisioner's Office at
24 A Street, Washougal, WA, 98671 and explain your support of aviation.
3. If you have any other questions or suggestions call David Valaer
at 503-257-3511 (work) or 360-834-9552 (ome). Let's all pitch in and
don't allow this airport to die like Clark County did.
Directions:
________________________________________________________________________________
toowards Camas. Drive through Camas past the paper mill.
As you first enter Washougal you will see the boat marina on your
right, take the next left on 2nd St. The Public Utility Division
Offices are immediately on your left on the corner of 2nd and C St.
+++++++++
Those of us in the immediate area and anyone else willing to travel
are encouraged to attend this meeting.
We all know that the Clark County Airport was (is) privately owned
and there is not much we can do to stop the destruction of that
facility. However, the Port of Camas-Washougal, owner of Grove Field,
can be swayed by public opinion if it is strong enough.
Thank you for your support
Mike McGee
Vancouver, WA
jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..)
TAIL: ----------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Subject: | Re: Camas,WA airport closure (Grove Field) |
I would contact AOPA ASAP. They have helped to ensure that a number
of airports have remained open when they were threatened to close.
If you don't have their number, call the AOPA hotline at 1-800-USA-AOPA
872-2672
Herman
> FIRST my appologies to the world outside of the Portland, OR / Vancouver, WA
> area for broadcasting this to the rv-list. I lost the address to the
> pdx-rv-list(at)somewhere.something. Be that as it may..
>
> Need help from Washington and Oregon pilots.
>
> The Port of Washougal, is making an effort to close Grove Field in
> Camas WA (east of the Evergreen airport in Vancouver). This comes
> on the heals of the closure of the Clark County Airport in
> Vancouver and there is already a 2-3 year waiting list to get a
> hanger in this area.
>
> During the Portland EAA Chapter 105 Breakfast saturday morning Sep
> 2nd, David Valaer stopped in to ask our help in this matter.
> He is trying to organize a show of support for the airport and
> handed out the following information:
>
> ++++++
>
> There will be a meeting next wednesday, Sep 6 at 7:00 pm, at the
> Clark County Public Utility Division offices on 89 C Street in
> Washougal to discuss the possible closure of Grove Field.
>
> We must show our support for aviation! You can help in the
> following ways:
>
> 1. Attend the meeting wed Sep 6 at 7:00 pm. If you desire to
> FLY IN we will have a shuttle leaving Grove Field (Camas Airport)
> at 6:45 pm to take you to the meeting.
>
> 2. Write the Port of Camas-Washougal Commisioner's Office at
> 24 A Street, Washougal, WA, 98671 and explain your support of aviation.
>
> 3. If you have any other questions or suggestions call David Valaer
> at 503-257-3511 (work) or 360-834-9552 (ome). Let's all pitch in and
> don't allow this airport to die like Clark County did.
>
> Directions:
> >From I-205 North from Portland, take the Highway 14 east exit
> toowards Camas. Drive through Camas past the paper mill.
> As you first enter Washougal you will see the boat marina on your
> right, take the next left on 2nd St. The Public Utility Division
> Offices are immediately on your left on the corner of 2nd and C St.
>
> +++++++++
>
> Those of us in the immediate area and anyone else willing to travel
> are encouraged to attend this meeting.
>
> We all know that the Clark County Airport was (is) privately owned
> and there is not much we can do to stop the destruction of that
> facility. However, the Port of Camas-Washougal, owner of Grove Field,
> can be swayed by public opinion if it is strong enough.
>
> Thank you for your support
>
> Mike McGee
> Vancouver, WA
> jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
>
> Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
> RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
> SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..)
> TAIL: ----------
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson) |
Subject: | Dimensions and walkout basements |
My wife and I are starting to house hunt. One of the features I'm looking
for is a walkout basement where I can continue to build my RV-6A. Of course,
I want to make sure I can get the airplane out of the basement. I would be
able to get the wing panels out of any decent walkout. However, what about
the fuselage?
1. At what point is the landing gear added?
2. How wide would the doorway need to be before adding the gear? How
about after?
Thanks.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: 3/32" Flush Pop Rivets -Reply -Reply |
>I'm not sure I know what a tube rivet is. I called B & F. They don't know
>what a tube rivet is either. They said these are "Pop" brand rivets, and
>they cross reference to Cherry (although they didn't know which one).
>Here is how they describe them:
>
>AK32BS - Aluminum Countersunk Carbon Steel Mandrel, Breaking stem.
>Grip Range = .031-.125
>Ultimate Shear = 125 lb.
>Ultimate Tensile = 175 lb.
>
>Price per 100 = 16.60.
>Add 15% for quantities < 100.
>
The MK319BS rivets that Van's sells are the same thing in Monel metal but are
7/64" instead of 3/32" and sell for $.11 each. I used them on my wing and
they work beautifully. They are as smooth as any of the solid rivets. You
can fill the hole with Microlight and West System Epoxy and when you paint
the plane, you can't tell them from solid rivets.
Jim Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu (Jim McDonald) |
Please remove me from the RV mailing list--I'm still getting some messages.
Thanks,
Jim McDonald
jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
What are the regs for ELT's in an experimnetal? Do I have to install one
for the flight test period or can I wait until I want to carry passengers?
Also, don't see much written about them so what's the consensus on the best
value for these questionable pieces of ballast?
Richard
- starting paint prep...
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (703) 478-9603
DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
FORE Systems TEL: (301) 564-4404
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 FAX: (301) 564-4408
Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
Subject: | Van's Homecoming Reflections, Info and Gossip |
Just a note about Van's Homecoming. I went on Friday for the potluck.
I didn't count, but there must have been close to 70 RV's there. What
a beautiful sight. As I drove down the highway I looked up and saw six
RV's getting ready to land. Seeing so many finished RV's is really an
inspiration. It is nice to see a full range of personalities, from
showroom IFR, Autopilot, three axis electric trim $30,000 panels and
leather seats to basic VFR, no paint and foam pads. I was left feeling
more than ever that this project is very personal. As long as no
compromizes are made in building the basic airframe, the simplist plane
will fly just as well as the the most polished.
Enough gab and a little news and gossip. I saw Steve Barnards new
wingtips and spoke to him about them. They are a bit bigger than stock
and curve up. He has only had two installed for a week, so doesn't
have any hard data yet. He hopes for some increase mph. His main
observation to date is that they relly help tail wag in rough air. He
says that even if this expected mph doesn't materialize (which he fully
expects it will) the wing tips are worth it just for the increased
stability in rough air. He expects to offer the tips around new years.
He is also developing a convex wing root fairing which he hopes to
have at the same time which he hopes will also increase mph and
decrease stall speed.
Steve also has a firewall fastbuild kit availible through Van's. All
the parts for the firewall are made and all holes are drilled. All
parts are numbered in sequence for assembly with new plans sheet. I
don't know the cost, but he said it was about $500. I just got done
riviting my firewall last night (not a fastbuild). Even though I think
all builders should experienec putting together the firewall jigsaw
puzzle with only the plans for help, if you have the money and want to
save time and a lot of head scratching, I would think the kit would be
worth it. I used his fast build wing kit and loved it. Steve and
Theresa Barnard 916-676-5601.
Next the RV-8. It is nice if you like tandem and want more mph and
room. The only gossip I picked up was that the price may be simmilar
to the 6-A. They have not priced it out so this gossip is just
that----gossip.
Another thing I saw was 8 gal tip tanks called Buster tanks and an RV-4
with retrac landing gear!!!
One of the best parts of the day was sitting on the runway as most of
the RV's left that night. For 45 minutes I watched as 3's, 4's, 6's
and 6-A's taxied and took off into the sunset. What a rush!!!!
Ross Mickey
6-A installing bulkheads into jig
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Saare(at)Eng.Sun.COM (John Saare) |
Subject: | Upholstery Matl' |
Hi:
Does anybody have a phone number for a supplier of aircraft upholstery
materials? Not pre-made components, but only the materials...
Stuff like:
Fabric
"Cardboard" backing
1/4" foam sheet
I want materials that are appropriate for use in certificated aircraft
(cuz it's going in a certificated plane...), i.e., no automotive stuff.
Thanks! -- John Saare (1% RV-6)
CHATTER:
Why? Almost the very moment I drilled the first hole in my empennage
kit, my "keep-me-flying-until-the-rv-is-built-plane" decided it wanted
a LOT of work done to it. Some of that work includes re-upholstering
the firewall (3M sound proofing, plus the stuff listed above.). The stuff
that was on the firewall previously was hilariously flammable. It really
was a "firewall".
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
Subject: | RV Builders' Forum: Trip Report (long) |
This past weekend, I attended the RV Builders' Forum at EAA chapter
486 in Fulton, NY. The event was excellent, with plenty of
information being exchanged, and lots of good comaraderie and
encouragement for builders at all levels. Chapter 486 did an amazing
job accomodating maybe 140 builders that showed up, many of whom were
not preregistered.
What follows is a brief synopsis of what transpired, and what I
learned.
8:45am: Tom Nolan, an RV builder and an engineer at Chicago Pneumatic,
gave a lecture on riveting that was as entertaining as it was
informative. He recommends using a 2X gun. His prefered
bucking bar is a hunk of mild steel .5" x 1" x 2.25". This, he
claims, can be maneuvered into all the tight areas between the
wing-walk ribs, and is much more versatile than the commercially
available ones. He also recommends that when working on your RV
with your significant other, you let him/her DRIVE the rivets
while you buck; that gives the other person the feeling that
he/she is making a really important contribution, and not just
'holding' something. He thinks the real skill is in properly
bucking the rivets. Regardless of what happens, compliment your
partner constantly; this ensures that someone will always be
there to help you with the 35,000 odd rivets that need to get
driven. He mentioned that his wife is so proud of her riveting
that she brings her sewing group down to see the weekly progress
on the airplane.
9:45 Henry Hore, a builder from Canada, gave a talk on some of his
home-made tools. He demonstrated a pneumatic cleco
inserter/extractor that he made from an old automotive shock
absorber. He showed off some of his bucking bars to which he
glued strips 1/8" vinyl on either side of where the shop-end of
the rivet goes. This combines the functions of a shop-head
gauge and a bucker in one, and makes it impossible to overdrive
a rivet. Another gadget he had was a die-grinder mandrel with a
handle. This would give you two-handed control over the die
grinder when you were cutting expensive materials--like your
canopy. The coolest thing he had, though, was his rivet spacer.
He marked off 1" increments on a strip of elastic waistband
material. If he wants to space, say, 15 rivets over a given
span on a wing rib, he simply tapes mark #1 of the elastic strip
at the starting point, and stretches the elastic so that mark
#15 is at the end point. Then he goes to town with the drill.
The advantages are 1) it only costs you an old pair of jockey
shorts; 2) it conforms nicely to the shape of curved surfaces;
3) it doesn't scratch aluminum like the traditional spacer can.
10:15 Ron Jones and Tom Wood gave some pointers on putting together
your wings. It was mentioned that heating the skins prior to
riveting produces nice results, but the skins must be painted
some dark color so they pick up the heat. One builder uses a
pair of ceramic space heaters placed on either side of the rib
that is to be riveted. You don't have to heat the wing during
drilling.
11:00 Steve Frey was there with his metal fuse jig, and demonstrated
how it works by clecoing together some predrilled bulkheads and
longerons into a properly aligned fuselage in about an hour.
Very impressive. Of course, it'll take you and me weeks with
all the drilling and deburring that he didn't have to do. He
mentioned that he will be shipping his own fuse assembly manual
to purchasers of his jig, which departs from Van's instructions
in places where he feels he can save the builder some time and
headaches. I neglected to pick up the price list, but I seem to
recall that the fuse jig was a grand and change. He also has an
empennage jig and wing jigs that look like they would be quite
useful. All his stuff is high-quality, built from welded
heavy-gauge steel. Steve himself is very personable, and
knowledgable.
1:00 Fred Stucklen gave a talk on wiring, which I did not attend, cuz
I was busy checking out the flight line. About 15 RV-4s, 6s,
and 6As showed up, including Becki and George Orndorff's first
airplane. There were some very nice airplanes there. Too
little time to mention them all, but the Builder's Choice award
went to N262JB, and RV-6 built by Jeff B.(?). This airplane was
gorgeous! Every exterior detail was directed toward reducing
drag, including his own special fairings at the wing roots that
he glassed himself. The interior was nicely carpeted and
upholstered, with a really clean panel. I was dumbfounded that
he built it in 2 years and 2000 hours, until someone mentioned
to me that Jeff's an A&P.
2:00 George Orndorff gave an informative talk about installing
systems, the main message of which was to spend lots of time
planning ahead about where you intend to route wires, hoses,
etc. One helpful hint was to run plastic hose or conduit in
which you put the wiring. He leaves a string inside the conduit
for use some time down the road when he decides to pull the
wires for some as-yet-unthought-of electrical accessory. He
likes Terra radios because their customer support is so good and
their warranty is 5 years. But he bemoans the length of the
radios behind the panel. He cautioned to run the strobe wires
on the other side of the fuse away from the antenna cables, and
to use separate home runs to the battery from the strobe power
pack. Also, only ground only one end of the strobe's shielded
high-tension wires.
3:00 Ron Jones gave an extremely useful talk on painting; well really
priming, as we never got to discuss his opinions on topcoats.
He preferes PPG #40 over DuPont Variprime. The Variprime is *a
lot* heavier, and goes on in a 3 mil coat, as compared to the
#40, which covers in about 1 mil. Because the #40 is not self
etching (it is a catalysed epoxy) you need to clean the metal
really well beforehand. He recommends scrubbing the parts in a
pure alkaline soap solution (PPG and Amway have such available)
with a ScotchBrite red pad, and rinsing prior to priming. He
claims you have to scrub the parts before priming with Variprime
anyway, so you might as well us PPG #40 and save on the weight.
In discussing primer application, he mentioned the DeVilbiss
gravity-fed HVLP gun that you connect to your standard airhose.
He raved about the Accuspray Optima HVLP gravity-fed gun as
being the finest gun he has used. He shoots at 50 PSI. He has
no experience with the turbine HVLP rigs.
The remainder of the day was spent on talks about cabin interiors
(Becki Orndorff), Tools (George Orndorff), and FAA Paperwork (Eddy
Dick), which I did not attend. Perhaps other rv-listers who were
there can fill in.
The day concluded with a banquet at which were presented awards and
door prizes.
I never before attended an RV forum, so I have nothing to compare this
one too, but I certainly found it to be a worthwhile event. Lots of
great people and informative discussion. Chapter 486 deserves some
real acknowledgement for pulling this together so well.
-Brian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer
LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com
145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 UUCP: uunet!lanart!byablon
Needham, MA 02194 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206
LANart: Difference by Design
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
The ACK ELT gets my vote, primarily because it uses D-cells
instead of the expensive proprietary batteries in most other ELTs.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Upholstery Matl' |
>
> Hi:
> Does anybody have a phone number for a supplier of aircraft upholstery
> materials? Not pre-made components, but only the materials...
>
> Stuff like:
>
> Fabric
> "Cardboard" backing
> 1/4" foam sheet
>
> I want materials that are appropriate for use in certificated aircraft
> (cuz it's going in a certificated plane...), i.e., no automotive stuff.
>
> Thanks! -- John Saare (1% RV-6)
>
Automotive upholstery is required to be fire retardent these days.
Chris
Also if intrest;
In article <413qdb$s5c@news.connectnet.com> you wrote:
: Get a free copy by calling 619 749 0239 or fax: 619 749 6384
: or E-mail to bjnash(at)pdsig.com
: Booklet is a how to manual covering materials and suppliers.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Subject: | homecoming & canopies |
Hi guys,
It was great to bump into a few fellow listers at homecoming!
There were so many fine pieces of aviation craftsmanship that I never got to
see all of them. I did notice that about 98% of the -6's were equipped with
a tilt up canopy. After talking with many people about the pros and cons,
it seems that there is no right choice and it must be made purely by personal
preference.
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Where to Build ??? |
Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other
people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought
out creative solutions.
So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process
(I have never even held a rivet gun).
I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing
prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a
month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I
like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor.
That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/
condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or
buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building
off-site would not be as convenient, etc.).
Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much
appreciated!
Thanks, Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
The noise of building an RV could get to be a bit much for condo
dwellers.
How committed are you to the project? Are you attached? Do you care
about "having a life" or would it work for you to live and breathe your
RV project for a while?
The reason I ask is that if I were in your situation and didn't care
much about social life/having friends/dates over, I'd rent the
industrial space and LIVE in it for the duration of the project (local
codes/rules permitting). It can be a pain to have a project somewhere
else and try to go work on it -- I know, I tried. But living in a
hangar isn't an option for me, being married and all....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other
> people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought
> out creative solutions.
>
> So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process
> (I have never even held a rivet gun).
>
> I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing
> prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a
> month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I
> like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor.
>
> That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/
> condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or
> buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building
> off-site would not be as convenient, etc.).
>
> Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much
> appreciated!
>
> Thanks, Rob.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
I built my RV-6 in my basement/garage. I just asked my wife what she
thought the noise from my riveting sounded like. At first she said that it
wasn't a problem. Then I asked what if I had been building in a townhouse
like where her folks live. That was a different story; she thinks that may
cause a problem.
I think that if you make real good friends with your immediate neighbors
that what little actual riveting you do will not cause a problem. This, of
course, assumes that you only rivet when the neighborhood is otherwise noisy.
If you can enlist your neighbors in building the RV your problems are
solved; no one calls about a loud party they are attending.
At 10:30 PM 9/5/95 GMT, Rob Acker wrote:
>
>
>Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other
>people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought
>out creative solutions.
>
>So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process
>(I have never even held a rivet gun).
>
>I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing
>prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a
>month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I
>like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor.
>
>That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/
>condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or
>buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building
>off-site would not be as convenient, etc.).
>
>Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much
>appreciated!
>
>Thanks, Rob.
>
>
> * SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*.
>
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
I'll vote for the ACK ELT; it's cheaper, lighter and uses D cell batterys.
Also, since the batterys are good until the date stamped on the battery, you
can get up to about four years on a set of batterys. With that in mind, why
spend more for a heavier unit that need batterys every two years.
>What are the regs for ELT's in an experimnetal? Do I have to install one
>for the flight test period or can I wait until I want to carry passengers?
>
>
>Also, don't see much written about them so what's the consensus on the best
>value for these questionable pieces of ballast?
>
>Richard
>- starting paint prep...
>
>Richard E. Bibb TEL: (703) 478-9603
>DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
>FORE Systems TEL: (301) 564-4404
>6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 FAX: (301) 564-4408
>Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com
>
>
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
Rob:
Having had several hangers and a garage for building space, I have to
say that each has its advantages. Riveting does not make all that
much noise. I find the air compressor the most bothersome. DO NOT
get a direct drive Air Compressor. Make sure that it is a belt drive.
A battery operated rechargeable drill can be used for most of the
drilling. All the holes in my fuselage were drilled with my Dewalt
drill. Riveting (like the other postings) should be done when the
noise would be least bothersome. After 9:00 am and before 6:00 p.m.
(or when ever your neighbors are not home.) I tried to keep my
neighbors out of my garage. I did not want them to know what was in
the garage. I would like my tools to last a lifetime. Not get up and
walk away. It is safe at the airport. I leave my keys in my vehicle
and my shop open. Nothing has walked away YET! I fine the airport a
great place for may distractions and a lot of good advice. Be careful
about who's advice you take for they may have less experience than
you. Consider the source of all advice and weight it for its
applicability in the particular situation.
Some EAA chapters rent building space for builders in their chapter
facility. In Upland, (Southern California) Cable EAA chapter 448
rents 300 square foot work spots in their chapter facility complete
with air and electricity for $85 a month. The wings for an RV-6 are
under construction in the shop now. Chapter 448 has had its members
build over 20 RV of which about 10 are now flying. By building in an
EAA chapter facility, your work is supervised by others (Technical
counselors (2), DAR, IA, A&P's, and other RV builders.) Help is
available when it is needed. Also, many time saving tips will be
learn. (mostly by demonstration)
Chapter 448 meets 8:00 p.m. the 2nd Friday of the month in their new
chapter facility on the north side of Cable airport. Just look for
the only blue hangar and you found it. Someone has been at the
chapter facility every Saturday and Sunday since June.
There are many RVs being built in So CA so good luck in what ever
location that is chosen.
Gary A. Sobek
RV-6 20480 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Where to Build ???
Date: 9/5/95 4:37 PM
Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other
people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought
out creative solutions.
So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process
(I have never even held a rivet gun).
I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing
prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a
month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I
like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor.
That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/
condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or
buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building
off-site would not be as convenient, etc.).
Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much
appreciated!
Thanks, Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*.
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
ED>The noise of building an RV could get to be a bit much for condo
ED>dwellers.
ED>How committed are you to the project? Are you attached? Do you care
ED>about "having a life" or would it work for you to live and breathe your
ED>RV project for a while?
ED>The reason I ask is that if I were in your situation and didn't care
ED>much about social life/having friends/dates over, I'd rent the
ED>industrial space and LIVE in it for the duration of the project (local
ED>codes/rules permitting). It can be a pain to have a project somewhere
ED>else and try to go work on it -- I know, I tried. But living in a
ED>hangar isn't an option for me, being married and all....
ED>Randall Henderson
ED>RV-6
Ed,
Thanks for the reply. A friend at work suggested this as well. It may
pose no problems 'cept for one...I *do* date quite a bit.
So...where do I live you ask? I sleep with my plane . At least she
would know where she stands if she continued dating me.
If I can find a place that has an "office" built-in with shower/kitchen
this could be a way to go.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * Microsoft Windows - proof that P.T. Barnum was correct.
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
John Ammeter replied to Rob Acker:
AM>I built my RV-6 in my basement/garage. I just asked my wife what she
AM>thought the noise from my riveting sounded like. At first she said that it
AM>wasn't a problem. Then I asked what if I had been building in a townhouse
AM>like where her folks live. That was a different story; she thinks that may
AM>cause a problem.
Say thanks to your wife for me . Its good to get input like this
from people who have experienced it.
AM>I think that if you make real good friends with your immediate neighbors
AM>that what little actual riveting you do will not cause a problem. This, of
AM>course, assumes that you only rivet when the neighborhood is otherwise noisy
Understand about the neighbors. A coworker has a complete woodworking
shop in his townhouse garage (table saw, lathe, etc.). He lives in a
complex with four units, knows his neighbors, and only uses the noisy
stuff during daylight hours and has no problem.
So the actual riveting process is not a "one right after another"
process, i.e. you set one, check it, get ready for the next, etc.?
There was also a thread here on pnuematic squeezers, could these
effectively be used for a lot of the riveting, using the gun only when
needed?
AM>If you can enlist your neighbors in building the RV your problems are
AM>solved; no one calls about a loud party they are attending.
Hmmmm....I'll make sure I move into a place that has a lot of single
women and see who's interested in "partying" .
Thanks for all your input.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * Political Correctness is a Borg plot.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
I built my tail, wings and fuselage in a one car garage that was located in a
condo complex. To make things even worse, my building time (during the week)
was from 5:00am to 6:30am and 9:30pm to 11:00pm! On Saturdays I would work
from 6:00am to 6 to 9:00pm. Guess what...nobody EVER complained! Here's
why...
First, my garage was insulated and it was surrounded by other garages. If I
had an end unit it would have been louder. This also made it very warm with
a space heater in the winter.
Second, during the off-hours I kept the door closed.
Third, I only sprayed primer when the lot was empty. If I had a big job, I
would wait for everybody to go to work or I would come home early so I could
spay safely.
When the project was moved to the airport, 8 miles away, I went from 25
hours per week down to about 5 hours a week. It's just to hard to get away.
The advantage to building a plane in a condo envornment is that you spend
you time working on the plane and not cutting the grass, cleaning the pool,
painting the house.....
The other advantage; you'll meet EVERYBODY in the complex because everybody
will stop by to see "that nut" building the plane in his/her garage. Lots of
helpers too, I might add!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Primers yet again |
> 1. I was ready to order Alumiprep and Alodyne, and in the
> Aircraft Spruce catalog, there are TWO kinds:
> Alumiprep No. 33
> Alodine No. 1001
> Improved Metal Prep #79
> Alodine #1201 (for use with #79)
Use alodyne #1201 (visible) unless you're going to polish the skin....
I don't remember which of the alumipreps I've used, I just get the
equivalent PPG product (I don't remember the number for that either) at
Quality paints.
> 2. I remember way back talk about stamping parts with
> the id before priming, with some little letter/number
> stamps from H.F. Is that a good idea?
I have some of those stamps, and I use them where there are parts
that will need to be matched for maintenance (e.g. aileron bellcrank).
But for the ribs and any thinner parts like skins, I just use an
engraver (LIGHTLY!) as it's faster and doesn't tend to dent the
thinner parts like the stamps can if you're not careful.
>
> 3. I was gonna order some spay can zinc chromate, and
> there's this other stuff called zinc oxide, that
> is supposed to be as good but safer. Has this been
> tried?
I've wondered about this one myself, don't know the answer.... anyone?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | KHarrill(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Pilot's Operating Handbook |
Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had developed
a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe someone on the rv-list
would.
Any information would be appreciated.
Ken Harrill
RV - 6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Pro Seal Shelf Life |
Okay, so I let my building schedule slip a bit during the summer (it was
too hot to work in the garage, honest! :)
I should be ready to do my second fuel tank later this month, but my
remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I
received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. Should
I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my old stuff?
It's been stored at an average of perhaps 70-75 degrees (oops, I guess it
wasn't all THAT hot in the garage this summer). How does this stuff
deteriorate with age? Does it fail to cure or what? Does it extend the
shelf life if you keep it in the fridge or freezer?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Pro Seal Shelf Life |
t! :)
>
> I should be ready to do my second fuel tank later this month, but my
> remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I
> received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. Should
> I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my old stuff?
>
> It's been stored at an average of perhaps 70-75 degrees (oops, I guess it
> wasn't all THAT hot in the garage this summer). How does this stuff
> deteriorate with age? Does it fail to cure or what? Does it extend the
> shelf life if you keep it in the fridge or freezer?
>
> Curt Reimer
>
>
>
I had the same problem with my build schedule. The proseal that I had
started to get lumpy. It was 6&1/2 mos. old. I trashed the original batch
and reordered. It was still two months before I started useing the new
batch. I would suggest that you hold off on the order untill you are ready
to start sealing the tank. Schedules have a way of slipping.
If you read the lable on the black stuff, they call it "accelerator".
I think this means that proseal will cure without the black stuff. It just
takes longer (about 6 Mos.).
BTW... I have just put the internal ribs in my right tank and it was no
big deal. Somebody's suggestion of useing a artist's paint spatula was a
great idea. I would reccomend this tool to anybody preparing to seal their
tanks as a "must have" item. It makes applying the proseal easy.
Chris
Sealing the first fuel tank.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
> my
>remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I
>received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time.
>Should I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my
>old stuff?
The rated shelf life of 890 ProSeal is 9 months. When you open the
big can you may find that a tough film about 1/16" thick has formed
on top. Peel this off and throw it away.
A while back I did some testing on some ProSeal that was about 15
months old but had been stored in a refrigerator. It had the same
consistency as the new stuff, hardened up at the same rate to the
same stiffness, stuck just as tightly to clean aluminum, and did
not soften a bit when soaked in autogas for a week. That is the
ultimate test of whether or not you should use old stuff.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | Re: Pro Seal Shelf Life |
Curt:
UNOFFICIALLY the shelf life can be extended in the fridge / freezer.
From experience, I have noticed that the out of date "stuff" will not
have as long of pot life. Pot life is unaffectived by cold storage. I
do not know what else happens with age. I know of Proseal that was
stored in the freezer since new and used 3 years beyond the shelf
life! I would not recommend doing this if one is not willing to
suffer the consequences. I have repaired leaking RV-4 fuel tanks with
"stuff" that was out of shelf life by 2 years. That was 1 1/2 years
ago and about 30 flight hours with no fuel leaks.
I suggest developing an opinion based on others experience. If old
"stuff" is used and it leaks, would a repair be feasible?
Gary A. Sobek
RV-6 20480 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Pro Seal Shelf Life
Date: 9/6/95 3:44 PM
Okay, so I let my building schedule slip a bit during the summer (it was
too hot to work in the garage, honest! :)
I should be ready to do my second fuel tank later this month, but my
remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I
received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. Should
I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my old stuff?
It's been stored at an average of perhaps 70-75 degrees (oops, I guess it
wasn't all THAT hot in the garage this summer). How does this stuff
deteriorate with age? Does it fail to cure or what? Does it extend the
shelf life if you keep it in the fridge or freezer?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook |
From: | "Kevin E. Vap" <kvap(at)solar.sky.net> |
-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had
developed
>a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe someone on the rv-
list
>would.
>Any information would be appreciated.
>Ken Harrill
>RV - 6
This ad appears from time to time in the classified ads in the back of EAA
Sport Aviation:
"RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, -6A Flight Manual, 46 pages, $9.50; Maintenance Manual,
92 pages, $16. PP USA. CR Supply, Box 46, Manitou Springs, CO 80829."
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build |
Jack Abell replied to Rob Acker:
RA>I agree with Gary that the compressor is a lot more obnoxious than
RA>riveting. I have a 4.5 h.p. direct drive compressor, 125 p.s.i. plus. It
RA>makes a terrible noise. I work in a garage attached to my house. I live
Sounds like if I built an "insulation box" for the compressor (and
shopped around for the quietest I can find) I would be OK in the
townhouse.
I just can't think of building off-site...I already spend 11.5 hours
each day working/commuting...I have really been thinking of those
"motivational problems" you had mentioned.
RA>It sounds like you might live fairly close to me. Give me a call sometime.
I live in South O.C., work in the South Bay. I will give you a call
when needed..drop me a note at 75104,3077(at)compuserve.com if you need a
"third hand" and don't mind me being a snoop to see if I really want to
do this. Anyhow...it will wait till the RV-8 kits are available.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * I'm cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to build? |
AO>I built my tail, wings and fuselage in a one car garage that was located in
AO>condo complex. To make things even worse, my building time (during the week
AO>was from 5:00am to 6:30am and 9:30pm to 11:00pm! On Saturdays I would work
AO>from 6:00am to 6 to 9:00pm. Guess what...nobody EVER complained! Here's
AO>why...
WOW...those hours and nobody complained? I think I have my mind pretty
much made up towards the townhouse..like you I don't want to (or like)
doing the lawn, gardening, and all that other stuff.
AO>Third, I only sprayed primer when the lot was empty. If I had a big job, I
AO>would wait for everybody to go to work or I would come home early so I could
AO>spay safely.
I didn't even take *priming* into consideration. That's why it's so
great to have this group available...education!
Thanks for your input.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most...
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
Gary Sobek replied to Rob Acker:
CC> Having had several hangers and a garage for building space, I have to
CC> say that each has its advantages. Riveting does not make all that
CC> much noise. I find the air compressor the most bothersome. DO NOT
CC> get a direct drive Air Compressor. Make sure that it is a belt drive.
Your advice is MUCH appreciated. I have been around quite a few air
compressors...as long as the actual riveting process does not make more
noise than that I think I might be OK in the townhouse. I have found a
complex that has each garage towards the front of each unit, the garage
only has two surfaces touching other rooms (MY master bedroom and MY
kitchen). This may just be the ticket.
CC> Some EAA chapters rent building space for builders in their chapter
CC> facility. In Upland, (Southern California) Cable EAA chapter 448
CC> rents 300 square foot work spots in their chapter facility complete
CC> with air and electricity for $85 a month. The wings for an RV-6 are
$85? That's great. I belong to the Orange County chapter of EAA...will
pursue that avenue. Thanks for the invite to the Upland chapter.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * A confident manner is important: Computers can sense this
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Hi guys,
I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of
sorts. Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around
the dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job.
Mike Graves
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook |
I saw an add in the back of Sport Aviation for one, price about $10, have
no idea about how good it is.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Wed, 6 Sep 1995 aol.com!KHarrill(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had developed
> a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe someone on the rv-list
> would.
> Any information would be appreciated.
>
> Ken Harrill
> RV - 6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> Hi guys,
> I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of
> sorts. Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around
> the dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job.
>
> Mike Graves
>
Tank bladders have their own set of problems. They tend to develop
folds that retain water. The water will not come out during a fuel sampling.
When you make a turn on the ground the water sloshes over the fold and into
the fuel system and choaks the engine just as you are clearing the end of the
runway.
They also need to be replaced after several years of service.
After working with pro-seal I can tell you that it is not as bad as
some say. Keep lots of rags near and clean the tools with lacquer thinner
as you work. And don't forget that artist's paint spatula.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | My mail problems now fixed |
Guys,
My e-mail server was down from 8-28 until to-day (9-6), and seems
to have swallowed all mail over that time!
If any of you sent me private e-mail in that period (or RV-list
postings specifically directed to me), please re-send.
.. thanks .. Gil Alexander "gil(at)rassp.hac.com"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
Subject: | Bottom skin clamp? |
I must be missing something here but how do
you clamp the bottom wing skin in position.
The rib flanges are turned inward and the
rear spar flange upward.
Possibilities:
Will masking tape hold?
Do you drill two holes in the main spar
flange and then accurately measure and
drill them on the skin.
Make "L" brackets to cleco on the the rear
face of the spar and then drill and cleco
in the aileron cutout area?
Am I missing something here should it be
this difficult?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook |
I find this idea rather odd. Isn't flight testing supposed to determine
operating limits and other information from an A/C? How can a commercial
printer claim to have a flight manual when each plane, built by a
different individual with different ideas, will more than likely operate
differently?
I also can't imagine needing a maintenance manual when an individual has
invested a good amount of time building the thing.
So, am I missing anything?
- Alan
On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Kevin E. Vap wrote:
>
> >Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had
> >developed a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe
> >someone on the rv-list would.
> >Any information would be appreciated.
>
> This ad appears from time to time in the classified ads in the back of EAA
> Sport Aviation:
>
> "RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, -6A Flight Manual, 46 pages, $9.50; Maintenance Manual,
> 92 pages, $16. PP USA. CR Supply, Box 46, Manitou Springs, CO 80829."
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | RV6 or RV6A wanted |
FYI: I pulled this off rec.aviation.homebuilt.
I have nothing to do with this person, so don't contact me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: brucew5540(at)aol.com (BruceW5540)
Subject: RV-6
Date: 2 Sep 1995 21:02:26 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
I am interested in purchasing a RV-6 or RV-6A, completed and flying.
Please contact me at brucew5540(at)aol.com or 205-534-5433 Bruce Walker, P.O.
Box
1707, Huntsville, Al. 35807.
thanks,
bruce
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Steve Frey's Jigs |
From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
I'm interested in knowing more about the jigs made and sold by Steve Frey,
especially the fuselage jig. Does anyone have Steve's address or phone
number?
Thanks.
Jack Abell
RV-6A
Empennage control surfaces
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Bottom skin clamp? |
Text item:
>I must be missing something here but how do
>you clamp the bottom wing skin in position.
If working by yourself start with four or five pieces of duct tape along the
main spar. Then clamp to the spar at the skin uper corners for security. Clamp
the skin sides at the trailing edge. Start drilling in the middle along the main
spar and remove the tape. As you drill down the ribs in the upside-down triangle
patern, loosen the clamps at the trailing edge and remove them as soon as the
skin doesn't flop around too much. Let the drilling and clecoing process orient
and hold the skin.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Bottom skin clamp?
From: JIM SCHMIDT <mail.mei.com!JIM.SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 1995 08:26:58 -0600
4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build |
I'm not sure if I'm doing a lot of things different than other people
or what, but I have to say I make a LOT of noise a fair percentage of
the time building my RV. One of my favorite tools is my nice, comfy,
Peltor brand hearing protectors. I insulated my garage before I started
and I'm sure my neighbors appreciate the fact as I often work LATE.
Sources of noise include:
Bandsaw (loud)
Belt sander (medium)
Table saw (high)
Grinder/Scotch brite wheel (medium/loud)
Die grinder or dremel tool w/cutoff wheel (loud)
Die grinder w/scotch-brite wheel (medium)
Dremel tool w/sander (medium)
Air drill (medium/low)
Rivet gun (loud)
Avery arbor dimpler/hammer (medium/loud)
Cussing (loud)
Also I have a DeVilbiss model F430 permanenty lubricated air compressor
-- a good unit but definitely NOT recommended for noise sensetive
situations.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp |
I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think.
The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high
compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was
2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by
Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in
storage since overhaul and has not been run.
I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines?
1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6?
2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility?
3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be
at least two more years before I get it into the air?
4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because
of the break in period. How important is taxi testing?
5. What is a reasonable price for the engine
with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or
fittings?
6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine.
I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly.
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build |
Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker:
ED>Peltor brand hearing protectors. I insulated my garage before I started
ED>and I'm sure my neighbors appreciate the fact as I often work LATE.
I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your
garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)?
ED>Cussing (loud)
That will probably be my biggest noise-maker as well .
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a * I'm just roadkill on the info super-highway...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build |
> Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker:
>
> I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your
> garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)?
My garage is attached to the house. I don't believe there is any
insulation between the garage and the house, but it is adjacent to the
guest bedroom so it the noise doesn't really bother anyone in the
house (unless we have guests of course!)
I insulated with standard pink fiberglass, and covered it with the
cheapest paneling I could find. I got a good deal, something like $1.50 a
sheet, on some 1/8" thick closeout stuff with flowery wallpaper on it,
and put it up with the back side out which was just unifinished wood,
and it ended up looking pretty good. Sheetrock might be better though
just because the lighter color would reflect more light -- I had to get a
lot of flourescents in there to get adequate lighting.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
Please remove my name from the rv- list. Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Subject: | Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp (fwd) |
The E2D engine works fine in any of the RV's as far as I know.
I have one in my RV4 and see a number of them on other RV's.
The engine should have been put together with assembly lub
on all the parts so it should be OK. To be sure, you could
pull one jug and inspect the inside of the engine. The main
concern would be rust on the cam lobes and lifters.
If the cam was lub'd with an assembly lub that is heavy enough
it should be OK as it should still be coated.
The Chrome Cyl will not rust.
There have been some AD's in the 11 yrs. The mags should be
Slicks so not subject to the Bendix AD's. Make sure the Slick
mags are not the old 'use 500 hours and throw away versions'.
My E2D still had those mags and I replaced them with new slick's.
Find out if you can what oil pump it has as there have been AD's
on the oil pump. You can also check with Lyc as to what type
of gears came in this engine if you have the serial number.
If it has the Steel and Aluminum gear, it is OK for your use.
The new AD now calls for replacing these with a Steel and a
Carborized Steel gear set but I know of nothing wrong with te
Steel and Aluminum gear set. You just don't want the Sintered Iron
gears. You can replace the Oil pump without too much trouble if
you have to or if you want to inspect it to be sure what you have
(which is what I did). It just requires pulling the oil sump
and the Acc case off the back.
A carb will cost you $500.00 or more.
I would probably replace the fuel pump as well due to the age on it.
You can get rebuilt for $125 or so exchange.
The starter ring assy is about $225.00. Be SURE to get the right
one for your starter (149 tooth vs 122 tooth). Yours should be a
149 tooth but double check.
You may want to buy it conditional on a test cell run in at a
local OH shop. This would break in the Chrome cyl as well and
ensure the engine is OK.
The 160HP pistons are good from my viewpoint, but it means using 100LL
and not auto fuel.
I would put oil in it and turn it upside down to coat the cam lobes
with fresh oil before you install/run it.
I don't know about the OH shop.
I expect this would be a good engine. If you can get it for no more
than $8,000 it would be a good deal. With new mags, a OH carb, rebuilt
fuel pump and starter ring gear it would be worth 9,500 to 10K.
I would try to buy it for $6,000 as is. If they want more, I would
make it conditional on pulling a jug and inspecting the inside and/or
doing the test run. If you thing it was stored OK and not rusted
I would push for the lower price and just store it till you need it
and then maybe do the test run before installing it.
Herman
> From root Thu Sep 7 15:53:11 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 13:02:40 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Robert Busick <nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com>
> X-Sender: rbusick@dante
> To: RV List
> Subject: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp
> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950907124521.15285G-100000@dante>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think.
> The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high
> compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was
> 2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by
> Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in
> storage since overhaul and has not been run.
>
> I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines?
>
> 1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6?
> 2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility?
> 3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be
> at least two more years before I get it into the air?
> 4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because
> of the break in period. How important is taxi testing?
> 5. What is a reasonable price for the engine
> with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or
> fittings?
> 6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine.
>
> I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly.
> Thanks
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re[2]: Where to Build |
> Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker:
>
> I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your
> garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)?
One of the best and cheapest things to use to keep sound from going through a
wall is gypsum board (also known as sheet rock, drywall, wallboard, etc). It is
also pretty good at not reflecting sound waves. It absorbs the energy rather
than passing it on. It is also fireproof. With a little practice with mud and
paint you can even make it look really good. It is also easier to put up than
panelling. Fiberglass behind it helps too.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build |
Randall,
Thanks for the info. Many of the townhouses I have looked at have
standard cinderblocks as the "wall" between garages...I suspect this in
itself would be good sound insulation.
ED>just because the lighter color would reflect more light -- I had to get a
ED>lot of flourescents in there to get adequate lighting.
Good point...the garages described above are *DARK*.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re[3]: Where to Build |
>> Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker:
>>
>> I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your
>> garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)?
>
>One of the best and cheapest things to use to keep sound from going through a
>wall is gypsum board (also known as sheet rock, drywall, wallboard, etc). It
>is
>also pretty good at not reflecting sound waves. It absorbs the energy rather
>than passing it on. It is also fireproof. With a little practice with mud and
>paint you can even make it look really good. It is also easier to put up than
>panelling. Fiberglass behind it helps too.
Two layers of drywall is standard building practise for
soundproofing. It's pretty cheap stuff, and all the work is in the
finishing ...
.... so nail up two layers with staggered joints if you add drywall.
..... Gil Alexander
>
>FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp |
>I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think.
>The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high
>compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was
>2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by
>Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in
>storage since overhaul and has not been run.
>
>I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines?
>
>1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6?
>2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility?
Yes. The owner came and talked to our EAA Chapter 40 a few months ago.
They are one of the larger West Coast facilities, and have a reputation for
good work.
They do the overhauls on the towplanes at my local glider site, so
I hope they are good :^)
>3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be
>at least two more years before I get it into the air?
>4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because
>of the break in period. How important is taxi testing?
>5. What is a reasonable price for the engine
> with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or
>fittings?
>6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine.
>
>I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly.
>Thanks
>
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
... good luck ... Gil Alexander
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Dimensions and walkout basements |
The gear is 6 feet 6 inches wide at the tread. You can turn the plane so as
to get the nose gear and one main gear out of a 6 foot door and then maneuver
the other gear out. Use the same technique for the tail with the elevators
off. I built a "T" shaped dolly with large casters to put under the gear so
that I can move my plane in any direction. That will make it easier to get
out of my walk-out basement with my RV-6A. When I built my Sea Hawk, I had a
5 foot slider in the back wall. The wall was made of concrete. I hired a
contractor to jack up the back of the house and jackhammer a 12 foot section
of the back wall out, install a header and build a wall that could be removed
in the future. I now have a set of French doors that give me 6 feet clear
and if I need it, I can unbolt the other section of the wall and have 12 feet
clear. How's that for a solution?
Jim Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | broadwaymag(at)harrier.sasknet.sk.ca |
Please Unsubscribe me from the list? Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Robert A. Patrias" <bobp(at)dexter.starfire.mn.org> |
Subject: | Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook |
Unless I missed something in the earlier mail, I would think this
Pilot's Operating Handbook would have alot of blank areas that
would be filled in with specific information for your particular
plane. An easy example is empty weight. But I would expect this
handbook to have a particular layout and organization much like
a POH from a commercial aircraft vendor. So, there would be some
prewritten material and possibly some pictures that are common
to all RV6's (for example). If this is true, then I would think
such a POH would be useful for organizing and documenting the
information for an RV. But, this is all pure speculation since
I have not seen this product.
As for a maintenance manual. Again I would expect a basic document
where you fill in the appropriate blanks, provide the various
schematics of electrical wiring, drawings of the pitot static
system, etc. Again this is all pure speculation since I have not
seen the product.
As I get older, if I know something is documented
then I don't worry about trying to remember every detail. Of
course if I can't remember where I put the documentation, then
that's another problem, :-).
Bob Patrias
Working on the tail (slowly)
Wing Kit on order (ship date approaching quickly)
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, A. Reichert wrote:
>
> I find this idea rather odd. Isn't flight testing supposed to determine
> operating limits and other information from an A/C? How can a commercial
> printer claim to have a flight manual when each plane, built by a
> different individual with different ideas, will more than likely operate
> differently?
>
> I also can't imagine needing a maintenance manual when an individual has
> invested a good amount of time building the thing.
>
> So, am I missing anything?
>
> - Alan
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Kevin E. Vap wrote:
> >
> > >Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had
> > >developed a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe
> > >someone on the rv-list would.
> > >Any information would be appreciated.
> >
> > This ad appears from time to time in the classified ads in the back of EAA
> > Sport Aviation:
> >
> > "RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, -6A Flight Manual, 46 pages, $9.50; Maintenance Manual,
> > 92 pages, $16. PP USA. CR Supply, Box 46, Manitou Springs, CO 80829."
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | Re: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp \ Taxi Tests |
Bob:
I agree with Herman Dierks posting on everything but his price should
include logs and overhaul receipts. No log, lower the price.
Your Question:
4. With chrome cylinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests
because of the break in period. How important is taxi testing?
The overhaul shop I use charges $500 for a run-in in the test stand.
The concern about taxi testing is valid.
I also have the same question on taxi testing that you do. I know of 2 RV-4's
near me that did not do taxi testing. The one was test flown by a test pilot
for McDonnald Douglas (I do not remember his name.) His statement was that taxi
testing is unsafe for airplane are made to fly. He said that one should get on
the runway, increase power and speed to verify that all the flight controls
work. If it does, go for it, if not abort. The problem with high power loaded
aircraft is that you go from lots of right rudder to left rudder in a power
increase, power decrease scenario. This goes against FAA AC recommendations
but appears to be a position advocated by the younger test pilots. What
comments do others have on taxi testing? I presently lean against extensive
taxi testing. Can anyone provide arguments that justify taxi testing?
Gary A. Sobek
RV-6 20480 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp
Date: 9/7/95 1:53 PM
I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think.
The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high
compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was
2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by
Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in
storage since overhaul and has not been run.
I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines?
1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6?
2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility?
3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be
at least two more years before I get it into the air?
4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because
of the break in period. How important is taxi testing?
5. What is a reasonable price for the engine
with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or
fittings?
6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine.
I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly.
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Dimensions and walkout basements |
I hired a
> contractor to jack up the back of the house and jackhammer a 12 foot section
> of the back wall out, install a header and build a wall that could be removed
> in the future. I now have a set of French doors that give me 6 feet clear
> and if I need it, I can unbolt the other section of the wall and have 12 feet
> clear. How's that for a solution?
>
> Jim Cone
>
Pretty extreme Jim, but ahhhhhh..... The sacrifices me make for our airplanes...
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re[2]: Where to Build |
CC>One of the best and cheapest things to use to keep sound from going through
CC>wall is gypsum board (also known as sheet rock, drywall, wallboard, etc). It
CC>also pretty good at not reflecting sound waves. It absorbs the energy rather
CC>than passing it on. It is also fireproof. With a little practice with mud an
CC>paint you can even make it look really good. It is also easier to put up tha
CC>panelling. Fiberglass behind it helps too.
Thanks for the info. I think I will go with attaching fiberglass to the
existing garage walls...and build another "wall" made of gypsum boards.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Where to Build ??? |
On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Rob Acker wrote:
> So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process
> (I have never even held a rivet gun).
One of the reasons I bought the pneumatic rivet squeezer is to cut down
on the noise. You'll still need to use a rivet gun occasionally, such as
when you are riveting the skins, but those times will be few.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Bottom skin clamp? |
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, JIM SCHMIDT wrote:
> I must be missing something here but how do
> you clamp the bottom wing skin in position.
I used C-clamps thru the lightning holes in the ribs.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Left wing is Done! |
I've been away all week so I haven't had the chance to say so, but Labor
Day weekend was a marathon riveting session at my house, and now the left
(first) wing is essentially finished. A few comments:
1. The Avery long offset back rivet set didn't work. If you've seen it,
you know it has a 'bend' in it about an inch back from the tip. The
angle of that bend is not enough. The shaft would hit the rib flange,
and it was not possible to get the face of it square on the shop head of
the rivet.
Fortunately, my helper was very experienced (much more experienced than I),
and we riveted the top skins in the normal way and they came out
absolutely beautiful.
2. Some time ago there was some discussion on this list about the
difficulty of driving the screws that attach the fuel tank to the wing.
I found that Boelube works great. I put a little of it on each screw
before driving it with my Makita driver, and I didn't mess up a single one.
So now I have one wing finished. And as it sits in my garage on a pair
of padded sawhorses, I must admit that it looks magnificant :-)
I've got both ailerons finished, both flaps about done. All the ribs for
the right wing have been fluted, and all the small parts, like the
aileron bellcrank and the rib rienforcement angles, are already fabricated.
Hopefully, I can finish the right wing now in a little less time that the
left one. (I started on the left wing at the beginning of April.) I've got
about 300 hours in the wing kit so far.
Oh, and I ordered the Navaid Devices autopilot last week.
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
Taking a deep breath and starting on the other wing
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | fenn(at)msg.ti.com (Brad Fennell) |
Please unsubscribe.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Fuel Tank Dimpling |
For those of you who have built your own tanks I have a couple of questions.
I was reading some old messages and found a reference to giving a little
extra dimpling squeeze in order that the rivets with pro-seal squeezing under
them seat flush with the tank skin. I was looking through Cleavland Aircraft
Tools cataloge and they offer a 3/32 dimple die set specifically for dimpling
tanks. My questions are:
1. For those of you who used a standard 3/32 die set, did you squeeze a
little bit extra, and how did the rivets seat?
2. For those of you who used a standard set and didn't squeeze a little bit
extra how did the rivets seat?
3. And finally, for those of you who purchased a special set of 3/32 tank
dies, were you satisfied with the results?
chet razer in sparta, Il
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Dimpling |
My questions are:
> 2. For those of you who used a standard set and didn't squeeze a little bit
> extra how did the rivets seat?
>
I dimled normally and the rivets are fine. I did use a scriber to press
the rivets into the dimple and squeez the extra pro-seal out. Put the scriber
in the little depression in the center of the rivet and press/wiggle the rivet.
The pressure will squeez out any extra sealer.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | unsubscribe please |
I'm still receiving rv mail. I would like to unsubscribe, please. Thanks
much.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Left wing is Done! |
David
Interesting report on your wing progress. You and I both
received our wings at about the same time but we are using a different
process. I had to take off about 7 weeks this summer on a business trip,
so I am a little behind in the number of hours spent on the wings
but I have been building both wings simultaneously, I have both in the
jig and the top skins drilled on. I start the leading edge skins soon I
hope. I'm following FKJ plans and all seems to be working out fine.
Last night I riveted the bellcranks and their supports on one of
the wings. I did follow Franks advise and took the number 9 and 10 spars
out of the jig and riveted them on the bench. This was more work, but
even out of the bench this was the most frustrating experience I've had
with the entire project todate. There is absolutely no way I could have
riveted the components while still in the wing jig. If any one has done
this and done it well my congratulations and good job. For those of you
who haven't gotten there yet... follow Franks advise!
I have found that the learning curve while doing the wings has
really made a difference. I have accomplished about 3x as much in the
same time it took me to complete the HS spar a year ago. For those of
you wondering does it get any easier, no it doesn't,... you get smarter and
your skills get better.
One question I haven't solved yet is how do you drill the tie
down bracket to the predrilled spar reinforcing angle? An angle drill
might work, but I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. For those of
you that built your spars you probably think I'm nuts, but a prebuilt
spar comes with the reinforcing angle riveted to the spar and you need to
drill a hole that is about 1/4" from the base of the spar in the
reinforcing angle, a normal drill held parallel to the spar can only
drill about an inch from the base.
I hope this progress report is of some help to others that have
yet to get this far. Good luck and keep working at it.
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Left wing is Done! |
David
What is Boelube and where do you get it?
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
> 2. Some time ago there was some discussion on this list about the
> difficulty of driving the screws that attach the fuel tank to the wing.
> I found that Boelube works great. I put a little of it on each screw
> before driving it with my Makita driver, and I didn't mess up a single one.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
RVator magazines were sent to press during the first week in September
for those who are wondering when the next issue will be out. Depending
on your location, it should arrive in the mail during the second or
third week of September. And yes, there will be information about the RV-8.
------------
The Van's Aircraft Homecoming saw the largest show of people and
airplanes yet. By Friday evening, Sunset "ATC" reported 100 different RV
aircraft had arrived. I personally counted 93 on the field at one time.
In addition, more than 400 people showed up for the barbecue.
Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
Van's "WebManager"
http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: unsubscribe -- PLEASE READ!!!! |
REMINDER to anyone who thinks they might ever
unsubscribe to this list and haven't read the FAQ:
PLEASE SEND UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGES TO THE RV-LIST
ADMINISTRATOR AND NOT TO THE WHOLE LIST!
The rv-list administrator's address is
rv-list-request(at)matronics.com < note the "-request"
^^^^^^^^
!
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Subject: | Re: Left wing is Done! |
>> Taking a deep breath and starting on the other wing <<
Go ahead Dave, you deserve it! Congrats on the progress, I hope to be
posting messages like this as soon as the -8 kit becomes available.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
Subject: | Re: Re: Closing Camas,WA (Grove Field) |
The Camas, WA airport (Grove Field) has been given a stay of execution.
According to an article in the Oregonian, as a result of the support shown
for the airport at the meeting held wednesday evening, the Port of
Camas-Washougal will keep the airport in operation and assemble a committee
to get a handle on the alleged liability/profit problem. The meeting was
attended by the FAA, Washington Aeronautics, and enough people in the room
that the fire marshall said enough, all of whom supported the facility.
Once again, thank you for your support.
Mike McGee
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ...
SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..)
TAIL: ----------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
Subject: | Subject Headings |
I have noticed over the last few months that I am having to sort and select
msgs I read on our list due to lack of time. This is a problem for those of
us who are quite a ways done the building path and have less interest in
beginner type information when we are very busy with work and honey do's.
I also find that a msg gets replied to many times, but the subject may
change completely. When sifting through 20 or 30 msgs deciding which to
read that might help you will overlook some good one.
My suggestion is that when the subject does change we revise the SUBJECT
header to reflect added or new topics.
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
Subject: | RV-LIST Updates... |
Hello Everyone,
With last nights update there are now 340 active members on the RV-LIST!
I returned from vacation to over 130 rv-list-request messages - some people
are very impatient when they don't get added to the list right away! :-)
I had setup a "vacation" program on the rv-list-request mail box, but
for some reason it didn't work. I messed around with it some more last night
but still couldn't get it to work. Anyway, I will continue to work on
setting up an automated message inresponse to messages sent to the
rv-list-request address so people get a warm-fuzzy about their request.
Oh, and yes yes, I know that I should run this list with some sort of
"automated registration-deregistration" program, but I find that there are
too many requests made that wouldn't be handled correctly with that type
of interface. I also like to have a real name associated with each of the
email addresses - more friendly that way - and the automated programs
won't do that. So, I guess I'm doomed to process it by hand... :-)
You guys are worth it!
Matt Dralle
RV-LIST Administrator
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 11:10:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org>
Subject: modem/win95 conflict
I know this isn't directly related to RV's, but it is related
to accessing the RV-list. I have been forced to boot into win3.1
to access my e-mail, because of a conflict between win95 and my modem.
If any of you have a similiar proplem, there is help in the Modemvendors
forum on Compuserve. Mine was specifically a Zoom modem situation, which
I resolved after perusing some messages in the forum from MANY people
with the same problem.
It is now MUCH easier to get my mail from the RVlist.
Thanks for letting me stray for a momemt guys, heck, now I can stop
screwing around with this computer and get back to work on those fuel tanks.
Oh goody...
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JPallist(at)aol.com |
Subject: | subscribe: jpallist(at)aol.com |
Please add me to your RV server.
Thanks, John Pallister (JPallist(at)aol.com)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Hi All,
At Matt Dralle's request, I will intro myself to the group.
Bill Costello
RV-6, #23664, working on empennage, wing kit expected 10/95
Building in basement, except fuselage ???
9635 S Damen Ave
Chicago, IL 60643
312-445-1246
I VERY much appreciate all the ideas from you guys and gals. If one or
two would respond, perhaps to my E-Mail addr directly, so I know this
"took", it would help.
Bill bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | CFarthing(at)aol.com |
Hi Everyone,
Still tooling up for the great adventure while trying to
decide which RV I'm going to build. Bought the preview
plans for both the -4 & -6. I like the -4 better but feel
the -6 has better outside support with the FJK instructions
and the Orndorff tapes. Of course a lot of the information
crosses over but still can't decide.
Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item
#24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question
is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job?
Was planing on getting one from Harbor Freight but just
read some horror stories on long waits for free shipping.
Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use
a band saw for?
Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar
flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff
wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a
table saw?
Any and all comments welcome.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | CFarthing(at)aol.com |
Hi Everyone,
Still tooling up for the great adventure while trying to
decide which RV I'm going to build. Bought the preview
plans for both the -4 & -6. I like the -4 better but feel
the -6 has better outside support with the FJK instructions
and the Orndorff tapes. Of course a lot of the information
crosses over but still can't decide.
Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item
#24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question
is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job?
Was planing on getting one from Harbor Freight but just
read some horror stories on long waits for free shipping.
Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use
a band saw for?
Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar
flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff
wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a
table saw?
Any and all comments welcome.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Subject: | MN Wing RV Picnic |
Fellow Listers:
Just an invitation to any and all RV builders and wannabe's in the Upper
Midwest that the MN Wing will be having their Annual Fly-In and Pig Roast on
Saturday, Sept 23 begining at noon. Location is the Sky Harbor Airpark in
Webster, MN (about 25 miles south of Minneapolis and about 7 miles SW of the
Farmington VOR (FGT)).
This is our big family event and last year we saw over 150 people and around 15
RV's. If you can bring a salad or dessert to share. Sky Harbor is a
residential airpark with about half a dozen RVs under construction on the
field. Spam cans and other "non-RV" flying machines are welcome as well.
Monitor 122.9 in the pattern.
For directions or questions, drop me an E-mail or call at 715-386-1239.
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
The Sears band saw you mentioned will work just fine for most stuff.
SInce I ordered the Phlogiston spar, I can't speak to it's suitability
for tapering the spar flanges.
I have a similar band saw, tho it's not variable speed. I use it A LOT.
You'll be cutting a lot of parts (for example all those rib reinforcement
angles are cust from aluminum angle stock), and I cannot imagine doing it
without a small bandsaw.
And a metal-cutting bandsaw is not needed either. The aluminum is soft
enough that it cuts just fine with a woodworking bandsaw and a
woodworking blade. If you were cutting a lot of steel parts, then you'd
need a metalworking bandsaw.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | BrooksRV6(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Van's Homepage inaccessible |
Anyone know why I can't access Van's homepage on the Web? I know it was to
be a temporary site. Did it move?? Is anyone else able to access it? (maybe
it's my web browser having difficulty).
Chris Brooks
RV-6
Building the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | BrooksRV6(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Low fuel warning switches |
The low fuel level warning switches offered by Aircraft Spruce for $35.80 can
be purchased from the Madison Co. for $22.00. They are model # M7700.
They're phone number is (202) 488-4477.
Chris Brooks
RV-6
Building the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Van's Homepage inaccessible |
It works for me at 12:30pm Pacific Time Sunday. The server could have
been down for a few minutes. If the site does move, don't worry, there
will be a page telling where it has gone to. I would suggest trying it a
little later, if still no luck, write me at address below.
> Anyone know why I can't access Van's homepage on the Web? I know it was to
> be a temporary site. Did it move?? Is anyone else able to access it? (maybe
> it's my web browser having difficulty).
> Chris Brooks
Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
Van's "WebManager"
http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | flap interference |
After completing the left flap, I discovered that I cannot get full up
travel on it. The interference point is where the flap brace steps up
onto the W407B doubler. The front edge of the flap top skin contacts the
flap brace at that point.
I suspect that the ccause of this problem is that the upper flap skin is
about 3/32" 'forward' from its intended position. (after drilling the
top-flap-skin-to-flap-spar rivet holes, I noticed that at the inboard
end, the rivet line is about 3/32" forward of the flap spar flange's
centerline.
My proposed 'fix' is to notch the inboard flap skin by about 1/8 inch at
the point of interference.
Comments or better ideas, anyone?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Subject: | Rod diam for bending trailing edges |
Please give me some help!
I used a 1/8 inch rod to bend the training edge of the rudder-
(RV-6)-(as we are told in "the tapes"). Another builder friend of mine
swears it should be a 3/16 inch. And it LOOKS like the constr manual
calls for a 3/16 inch for the elevator trailing edge (when talking of
the cardboard model for the trim tab), but it is not totally clear.
Help. Which is correct? Which did you guys use? Does it make a big
difference ?!?
Bill Costello
Trying to finish tail before wing kit arrives
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
Get the band saw, now not later. I got mine later and kicked myself for
not getting it at first. You will be surprised how much you will us it.
I got the Sears and have been very pleased with it. With Sears you know
what you are getting, and what to do with it if something falls off. I
can't say the same for Harbor Freight. A lot of their stuff is cheaper,
but so were Yugos. A lot of the guys on the rv-list used a radial saw
with some special blade for cutting metal. Band saw would work too, but
be careful, and remember, you can take more metal off, but can't add any!
Vixen file is great for taking out any scratches and gouges incurred
during cutting the tapers.
Jeff
RV-4
FT. Collins, Co.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Subject: | Re: Bottom skin clamp? |
Hi Jim,
I used cloth book binding tape. This stuff sticks amazingly well,
don't leave it on for months at a time as it will leave a sticky
residue.
Regards
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Bottom skin clamp?
Date: 9/7/95 8:26 AM
I must be missing something here but how do
you clamp the bottom wing skin in position.
The rib flanges are turned inward and the
rear spar flange upward.
Possibilities:
Will masking tape hold?
Do you drill two holes in the main spar
flange and then accurately measure and
drill them on the skin.
Make "L" brackets to cleco on the the rear
face of the spar and then drill and cleco
in the aileron cutout area?
Am I missing something here should it be
this difficult?
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re[2]: Left wing is Done! |
> Last night I riveted the bellcranks and their supports on one of
>the wings. I did follow Franks advise and took the number 9 and 10 spars
>out of the jig and riveted them on the bench. This was more work, but
>even out of the bench this was the most frustrating experience I've had
>with the entire project todate. There is absolutely no way I could have
>riveted the components while still in the wing jig. If any one has done
>this and done it well my congratulations and good job. For those of you
>who haven't gotten there yet... follow Franks advise!
If you have really gotten the hang of driving 1/8" universal head rivets
and have an offset set that will reach these rivets, you should try doing
them in the wing since everything is held rather firmly by the wing structure.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Apologies to the Listers (REAL CHATTER) |
Fellow Builders and lurkers,
About a month or two ago, I posted a series of messages onto this list
expressing my frustration and in the process offended a great deal if not
the entire readership of this list. This is an attempt to extend my
sincere apologies to those who were/are offended.
I am apologizing for the strong remarks made publicly and to assure the
readers that there will be no re-occurrence.
An individual was verbally attacked in this process and if I may...
Jerry: I'm truly sorry for the off-colored comments about you. Not only
were they inappropriate, they were farthest from the truth. You have
selflessly extended yourself to help out others on numerous occassions and
I too was fortunate enough to have received your support and
encouragements early on in my project. Please accept this apology as a
token of my regrets and of my sincere desire to amend for any harm done.
Again, my sincere apologies to the entire readership. Unlike George
Bush's famous:"No more taxes!" I say:"Never again!!"
-- Remi
"This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds..." :-) Just kidding :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
The Black/Decker "Factory Outlet Stores" have a 10" band saw, fixed speed,
for about $120 (their normal discount price). They also carry a selection of
metal & wood cutting blades for this saw (about $7/ea.). My brother thought
this saw was of higher quality than the Sears 10" saws.
For those builders in Northern Calif., a B/D store is located just across the
highway from the Nut Tree Airport (Vacaville, CA). If you fly-in (I hate to
drive anywhere but the airport) , just walk across the freeway via the
overpass near the pilot shop, turn north on the frontage road for about 200
yds, big orange sign on the left.
A friend told me a radial arm saw with a carbide wood blade will also do a
good job, if you do not cut too fast. It will leave a fine cut line, that
will require little cleanup work. He has much expertise in this area, so
this might be worth a test at least.
Dick Slavens reviewing RV-6 plans, buying tools, waiting for RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools |
Folks -- first of all, a small item of business...I have permanently changed
my email address from 74267.3003(at)compuserve.com to terence_gannon(at)msn.com.
Yes, I have bought the MSN hype all the way and I'm switching over! Please
direct all future correspondence to the latter, rather than the former,
although the former will still work for a while, at least.
Back to the
matter at hand. I'm looking to purchase one of the 'starter tool kits' and
the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob
talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments
about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic.
Thanx!
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Attending Sept. Builders' Conference"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item
> #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question
> is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job?
>
> Was planing on getting one from Harbor Freight but just
> read some horror stories on long waits for free shipping.
>
It deoesn't take much of a band saw to do what is needed
to build an RV. My saw is an old (40s vintage) Wards model.
It works just fine.
> Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use
> a band saw for?
>
Lots of stuff, like cutting the notches in the wing ribs...
well Van does that for you now. Then there is the cutting out
of the fuel tank access plates. Ooops, Van does that now too.
How about the fuel tank brackets at the root of the wing? Does
Van make those now? I don't know what is included in the new
kits, but I'm sure you will fins many uses for a band saw.
> Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar
> flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff
> wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a
> table saw?
>
> Any and all comments welcome.
>
Useing a "cut-off" wheel might heat the flange material to
much and change the heat treatment. This is just a guess. I
have cut smaller sections of aluminum on my RA saw. I,m not sure
what the thick material would cut like.
Chris
Sealing of the first tank is almost complete.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Steve Frey's Jigs |
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Jack Abell wrote:
> I'm interested in knowing more about the jigs made and sold by Steve Frey,
> especially the fuselage jig. Does anyone have Steve's address or phone
> number?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jack Abell
> RV-6A
> Empennage control surfaces
>
Stephen R. Frey
316 Turner Lane
Westchester, PA 19380
(215) 692-3553
Synopsis of Frey's brochure on Fuselage Jig:
===========================================
- Utilizes Inverted Bed concept as outlined in Van's Construction Manual.
- Incorporates the exclusive "Birdcage" fixture to accurately setup and
hold the wing carry through bulkheads for proper angle of incidence.
- Jig hinges and fold approximately in half, producing a freight envelope
of about 4x4x8 feet.
- All steel construction, four full swivel casters, six steel threaded
lugs to level the bed with a carpenter's level.
- Firewall posts adjustable and levelable,
- Steel transverse stops: position & hold bullkheads on stations.
- Longeron clamps on transverse stops: position and hold longerons.
The Bottom Line: RATES ARE FROM APRIL 1994
===============
- Rental Option -
Prepaid minimum rental of 3 months, crating, shipping, insurance and
handling.
- Purchase Option -
Prepaid full purchase price, crating, shipping, insurance and handling
- Fuselage jig rates-
Crating charge: Rental $ 30.00
Purchase $ 45.00
Monthly rental: RV-6/6A $ 150.00
Full purchase: RV-6/6A $1350.00
Personal Impression: (mumble jumble..OR CHATTER.)
===================
Having seen the steel jig, rugged and truthfully advertised, after talks
with a couple of RV builders with completed projects, and experiences
drawn from the use of wood jigging for the empennage and currently the
wing section, I believe the purchase or rental of a steel jig is overkill.
But... variety is the spice of life.
Hope this helps,
-- Remi
P.S. Whatever happened to those "Who We Are" posts?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sound of a siren, although obnoxious & offensive, is better heard...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com |
Subject: | Mazda RV4 update 2 |
I just sent a note from Tracy Crook which he posted on Compuserve. I
thought the group would be interested in his progress with his Mazda
Rotary powered RV4. If you get Kitplanes, there was an article (part 1)
on his plane this month. Part 2 next month. This was posted with his
permission.
P.s. my mail editor failed to edit the first note forcing me to send these
seperately, sorry.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com |
Subject: | Mazda RV4 update |
#: 882207 S12/Homebuilt Corner [AVSIG]
05-Sep-95 14:19:29
Sb: Mazda RV-4 100hrs
Fm: Tracy Crook 71175,606
The Mazda rotary on my RV-4 passed the 100 hour mark shortly after my return
from Oshkosh. Just finished a detailed inspection of engine and the Ross Aero
gear drive and thought I'd take this oportunity to update all those following
the progress.
The best news is that there is very little news! The hum from under the cowl
has been so consistant and confidence inspiring that I've decided to fly it to
Copperstate Fly-In in Oct.
Only two items have required attention so far. The rear oil seal on the gear
drive started to leak at 15 hrs. and had to be replaced. That may have been
my fault as I think I damaged it during installation. The replacement seal
hasn't leaked a drop.
The other thing was a mysterious oil pressure drop that started during the
Oshkosh trip. I noticed the pressure was about 5 lbs lower after each takeoff
until it bottomed out at 37 psi which is about half of normal. The engine
continued to run fine but it made me extreamly nervous as you might expect. I
had set 35 psi as the point where I would abort the flight.
I was preparing to pull the engine and install my spare when I decided to call
some rotary racing people I know in California. I started by saying I had
overhauled the engine and the oil pressure had been running at 75 psi for 80
hrs. At this point the guy interrupted me and said, "and now your pressure
has dropped to around 35, right?".
He had oviously heard this story before.
Turns out that an O-ring between the front cover and the engine frequently
blows and bleads off a lot of oil pressure. The guy also knew the parts and
proceedure to use to prevent it from happening again. Also said that unless
the engine was run flat out that the low
oil pressure did not result in any internal damage. I flew at only 38% power
during the trip so I decided to just fix the O-ring instead of the engine
swap. Pressure came back to normal afterwards.
The compression on both rotors continues to rise as the new rotor seals seat
in. Compression is an even better indicator of over-all engine health in a
rotary than in a recip. so all looks well.
I completely disassembled the gear drive and was happy to see no signs of
wear. The contact patch on all gears was polished smooth and shiny. End play
on the planet gears was same as when new. The damper assembly showes no sign
of wear so I assume that tortional vibration is not going to be a problem.
As I continue to tweak and tune the engine, performance continues to improve
slightly. Top speed has now touched 204 mph and this was on an 87 degree day
with density altitude around 4500 feet. Can't wait to see what it does with
honest to god Standard Conditions. :)
Part one of the Mazda RV-4 article finally made it to print in the Oct. issue
of Kitplanes. Lots more details there than was practical to post here on the
Forum. Hope you enjoy.
Regards to all.. Tracy
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rod diam for bending trailing edges |
On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, William Costello wrote:
> I used a 1/8 inch rod to bend the training edge of the rudder-
> (RV-6)-(as we are told in "the tapes"). Another builder friend of mine
> swears it should be a 3/16 inch. And it LOOKS like the constr manual
> calls for a 3/16 inch for the elevator trailing edge (when talking of
> the cardboard model for the trim tab), but it is not totally clear.
The inside diameter of the bend is about 1/8, and the outside diameter of
the bend is about 3/16. I used 1/8-inch dowel rod, and it was a perfect fit.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Donald Bohman <dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us> |
something has gone wrong. i must have been removed from the list as i
have not received any mail for aprox. 2 week.please ad my name to the
list once again. thank you.
dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Left wing is Done! |
Bob Busick said:
> One question I haven't solved yet is how do you drill the tie
> down bracket to the predrilled spar reinforcing angle? An angle drill
> might work, but I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. For those of
> you that built your spars you probably think I'm nuts, but a prebuilt
> spar comes with the reinforcing angle riveted to the spar and you need to
> drill a hole that is about 1/4" from the base of the spar in the
> reinforcing angle, a normal drill held parallel to the spar can only
> drill about an inch from the base.
Yeah that's one problem with the pre-built. If you build your spar yourself
you can drill the angle to the spar but not rivet it, then clamp the tie-down
to the angle and remove the whole thing and drill it on the bench.
BUT -- that doesn't answer Bob's question, does it!
Actually even though I built my own spar and did the above, I later
decided to move the tie-down to the next outboard spreader angle to
avoid interference with the pitot-tube, so I had to retro-drill. I used
a snake drill attachment and it worked ok (another neat tool I
recommend!). I'm not sure how else you could do it. If you can't find
one to borrow, the only other thing I can think of is to drill out the
rivets holding the angle to the spar. That probably wouldn't be that
big a deal but I suppose you want to avoid it even so.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>The Black/Decker "Factory Outlet Stores" have a 10" band saw, fixed speed,
>for about $120 (their normal discount price). They also carry a selection of
>metal & wood cutting blades for this saw (about $7/ea.). My brother thought
>this saw was of higher quality than the Sears 10" saws.
I have been using a small, fixed-speed 10 inch Delta band saw for
the last 5 years (I'm a slow builder!) and it works fine with wood cutting
blades as previously mentioned. Use the fine toothed blades. It's price
is in the $150 range though.
Lot's of other good bits and pieces for the workshop in this
Factory Outlet Store ... worth a stop if you see one.
>
>For those builders in Northern Calif., a B/D store is located just across the
>highway from the Nut Tree Airport (Vacaville, CA).
For S. Californians, there's one in Lenwood just S. of Barstow. A good
place to stop on the way to Vegas or the Colorado river :^)
>If you fly-in (I hate to
**** snip ****
>
>Dick Slavens reviewing RV-6 plans, buying tools, waiting for RV-8
.. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... riveted on top, aft turtledeck
skin this weekend
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools |
> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 04:37:00 UT
> From: "Terence Gannon" <msn.com!Terence_Gannon(at)matronics.com>
> To: "'RV-LIST'"
> Subject: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools
>
> Folks -- first of all, a small item of business...I have permanently changed
> my email address from 74267.3003(at)compuserve.com to terence_gannon(at)msn.com.
> I'm looking to purchase one of the 'starter tool kits' and
> the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob
> talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments
> about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic.
I have a 2x "clone" from avery. No complaints. I've never used an
"original" Chicago Pneumatic though, so I can't compare the two.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: flap interference |
> After completing the left flap, I discovered that I cannot get full up
> travel on it. The interference point is where the flap brace steps up
> onto the W407B doubler. The front edge of the flap top skin contacts the
> flap brace at that point.
>
I think this is normal. I remembered seeing this on other RVs so when I
discovered it I said "aha! so _that's_ why they did that!" and just
went ahead and did like they did: cut the front corner off of the
leading edge at that end of the flap, from about about 1/2" in at the
forward flange, back to nothing about 1" back.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com |
Subject: | Chicago Pneumatics gun |
I don't think Bob would steer you wrong. If you don't like it, I'm sure
some arrangements could be
made. One other thing. I bought a Chicago
Pneumatics air drill and it convinced me to go back to my electric drill.
It is just not a very good tool. The "teasing" trigger is so sensitive
that it is essentially useless and the drill feels rough even when you
turn it by hand. Also, it's made in Japan. I don't mind that but I would
prefer to see "Tokyo Pneumatics" on the handle. I thougt I was buying a top
of the line US made tool. Anyway, do get the kit from Avery. I can't tell
you how many work sessions I've essentially wasted because I didn't have
the right tool available. Shipping gets expensive when you call Bob once a
week for one tool at a time.(1/2g)
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
Subject: | RV Interest Group |
I'm interested in this news group. Please mail me info.
Thanks. BFG / RV6.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Steve Frey's Jigs (fwd) |
Remi Khu wrote:
> Synopsis of Frey's brochure on Fuselage Jig:
[deleted]
> Personal Impression: (mumble jumble..OR CHATTER.)
> ===================
[more deleted]
> wing section, I believe the purchase or rental of a steel jig is overkill.
Nice summary. If you're impressed by hardware, they're neat, but consider all
the airplanes that were build without them, and what an extra $1K can do for
your panel, finish, interior, etc.
Even if you don't want to buy or rent one of these monsters though,
at least take a look at one if you can. I got some good ideas for my (wood)
jigs by looking at Frey's (and Dan Batchelor's) jigs.
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools |
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Terence Gannon wrote:
> Back to the
> matter at hand. I'm looking to purchase one of the 'starter tool kits' and
> the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob
> talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments
> about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic.
Avery's rivet guns are first-rate. You won't go wring by buying one.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Steve Frey's Jigs |
I too, looked at Steve Frey's jigs. I think they are nice, but when I
saw the price I fainted dead. Boy, for $1350, I think I could construct
one heck of a jig!
But constructing a wooden jig is not as easy as it used to be. The
phrase "Kiln Dried" seems to no longer be in the vocabulary of most
sources of lumber. I know that the Lumber at my local Home Depot is
very fresh off the tree. I have some that has sat around for a few
months, and I have seen curly french fries that are straighter ;-)
Our local EAA tech Counselor has told me that one of our local builders
here is using something called "unistrut" (I think). He recommended it
as an inexpensive way to build a good fuselage jig.
The other alternative, I think is to use aluminum channel, aluminum
angle, or square steel tubing for the two long members of the jig (the
ones that run the entire length of the jig, one on each side. There is a
shop here that sells Angle, Channel, and square tubing at pretty
reasonable prices.
It appears to me that the only requirement for the fuselage jig is to
keep the bulkhead attach points from moving either vertically or
longitudenally. The rest of the jig can warp like crazy and it won't
matter, right?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
I have been using an older Sears model. This one has cast metal covers
instead of the newer plastic parts.
Anyway, just use a 'metal cutting' blade in the band saw. This will work
just fine on Aluminum. You do not need the expensive speed reduction unit
they use to sell for slowing the unit down to cut metal (steel).
You may wear out the blade a little faster but you will probably need
2 blades to do the entire project.
I used mine quite a bit. However, I had the prebuilt wing spars so I
did not have to taper the spar doublers so I don't know how the band
saw works for those thicker pieces. I expect it will work OK just go slow.
The variable speed unit will allow you to slow down the speed which my
older unit can not do.
Herman
>
> Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item
> #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question
> is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job?
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Just FYI...there's a GREAT picture of the RV-8 (in flight) in the 9/95
issue of EAA Sport Aviation, page 38.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Are cheap tools always the best tools??? |
Hello Everyone,
First I want to start off by saying I have no connection with any tool vendor
out there. I and my wife Trudy are like most of you just starting out on an
(RV-6) tail kit. We have tool catalogs from every conceivable vendor and
source. I first did cost analysis models and came to a startling conclusion.
Like most other major investments of time and money, customer service and
valuable tried information is what we really pay for. I have noticed from
this forum and many other EAA gatherings that many of us really do know much
about this whole aviation endeavor. "Many" though does not count for the
majority of the rest of us. My point is, you can order any tool in the world
and bargain to the penny for the best price, but unless you have been around
the patch already, that tool my not be THE BEST tool for you. My collective
memory of really good deals from the past turn out that I really didn't get
the best deal in most cases; that is until we started to tool up for this
project. I qualify my next comment by stating that I am a professional
"secret shopper" and have been in the customer service business for over 16
years.
My experience with Avery Enterprises of Ft. Worth, Texas (1-800-652-8379) was
so good that I feel obligated to spread a few good words about this
establishment. (Bob and Judy Avery, owners.) I have never been so well
received by any other vendor. My experience from others that I called ranged
from average interest in my plight to down right disinterest. Being blessed
to live in the Dallas Metroplex, I am geographically located only one hour
from Avery's. So frustrated was I in my tool searching, (remember
information) that I took a day off and drove over to Bob Avery's place. I
figured I would find a rundown dingy "aviation type" hangar / warehouse / pop
stand etc... Wrong! You could eat off the floor. He has one of the most
organized retail operations I have ever seen. His business is truly a one
button computer operation. A great deal of attention has gone into maximizing
his available resources in order to serve the customer better. I walked in
the
front door and was quickly introduced to Bob. I found him to be far from the
traditional "cigar chewing, What can I do you out of Bud?" type of fellow.
The only thing he knew about me is that I was in the market to tool up for an
RV-6. Before I could say, "Whoa Nellie" he had me in his shop drilling holes
and pounding all sorts of rivets. We spoke about drill presses and band saws,
air compressors and primer coats. When I got done, we had touched on
just about every major tool related operation. The time was getting by me now
and traffic in Dallas / Ft. Worth can be tough at rush hour. Finally, I had
no
further pressing questions and in my mind it was time to be getting back
home. I hate to say it but I had to ask Bob if he would load me up with what
I
needed. He really does enjoy the hands on part of this business. He kindly
printed out a list of what we talked about and from that we checked off what
I felt I needed for a start. I found the prices on most item to be in-line
with all the other vendors around and some were far better.
The point here again is anyone can sell a tool but only a few offer the
genuine interest in providing the service that is so much a thing of the
past. While I was there a customer called in with three new cans of spray
paint that seemingly wouldn't work. ( Right, three cans...) Bob never
questioned the customer but instead instructed one of his staff to box up
three more. Ever heard of that kind of customer service in the last 20 years?
I think he even paid the shipping! I am sold on this place and will continue
to add to my already $800.00 total as I see the need.
On another note, I also purchased one of those B-1 Project 1/4 inch
(Rockwell) air drills from Aircraft Tool Sales in Port Muron, Michigan.
(910-364-5885) Other than some wear to the outside of the tool, (Sorry I'm a
Neat Freak) it was well worth the $45.00 I spent. Works Great!
Thanks for your ear and I hope I haven't over stress those few " Too busy to
think / Ole Grumpy Types" out there, but now and then something comes your
way and you just can't ignore it.
Thanks for all the great insight!!
Kevin & Trudy Williams
Dallas, Texas
RV-6A Tail Kit #24438
"THE JIGS UP!..... and T-minus one garage sale to go and
counting...."
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Chicago Pneumatics gun |
The "teasing" trigger is so sensitive
> that it is essentially useless and the drill feels rough even when you
> turn it by hand. Also, it's made in Japan. I don't mind that but I would
> prefer to see "Tokyo Pneumatics" on the handle. I thougt I was buying a top
> of the line US made tool. > John
>
CP has a line of import tools as well as the good ole' made in USA
types. I agree that the USA version is much better. I try to buy only
tools made in the USA. Most adds will say that it's made here if it is.
The price will show where it's made also. The USA version is not that
much more and is well worth the extra cost.
Ingersol Rand also makes fine air tools. I like my IR drill beter
than the CP.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Are cheap tools always the best tools??? |
Hello Everyone,
First I want to start off by saying I have no connection with any tool vendor
out there. I and my wife Trudy are like most of you just starting out on an
(RV-6) tail kit. We have tool catalogs from every conceivable vendor and
source. I first did cost analysis models and came to a startling conclusion.
Like most other major investments of time and money, customer service and
valuable tried information is what we really pay for. I have noticed from
this forum and many other EAA gatherings that many of us really do know much
about this whole aviation endeavor. "Many" though does not count for the
majority of the rest of us. My point is, you can order any tool in the world
and bargain to the penny for the best price, but unless you have been around
the patch already, that tool my not be THE BEST tool for you. My collective
memory of really good deals from the past turn out that I really didn't get
the best deal in most cases; that is until we started to tool up for this
project. I qualify my next comment by stating that I am a professional
"secret shopper" and have been in the customer service business for over 16
years.
My experience with Avery Enterprises of Ft. Worth, Texas (1-800-652-8379) was
so good that I feel obligated to spread a few good words about this
establishment. (Bob and Judy Avery, owners.) I have never been so well
received by any other vendor. My experience from others that I called ranged
from average interest in my plight to down right disinterest. Being blessed
to live in the Dallas Metroplex, I am geographically located only one hour
from Avery's. So frustrated was I in my tool searching, (remember
information) that I took a day off and drove over to Bob Avery's place. I
figured I would find a rundown dingy "aviation type" hangar / warehouse / pop
stand etc... Wrong! You could eat off the floor. He has one of the most
organized retail operations I have ever seen. His business is truly a one
button computer operation. A great deal of attention has gone into maximizing
his available resources in order to serve the customer better. I walked in
the
front door and was quickly introduced to Bob. I found him to be far from the
traditional "cigar chewing, What can I do you out of Bud?" type of fellow.
The only thing he knew about me is that I was in the market to tool up for an
RV-6. Before I could say, "Whoa Nellie" he had me in his shop drilling holes
and pounding all sorts of rivets. We spoke about drill presses and band saws,
air compressors and primer coats. When I got done, we had touched on
just about every major tool related operation. The time was getting by me now
and traffic in Dallas / Ft. Worth can be tough at rush hour. Finally, I had
no
further pressing questions and in my mind it was time to be getting back
home. I hate to say it but I had to ask Bob if he would load me up with what
I
needed. He really does enjoy the hands on part of this business. He kindly
printed out a list of what we talked about and from that we checked off what
I felt I needed for a start. I found the prices on most item to be in-line
with all the other vendors around and some were far better.
The point here again is anyone can sell a tool but only a few offer the
genuine interest in providing the service that is so much a thing of the
past. While I was there a customer called in with three new cans of spray
paint that seemingly wouldn't work. ( Right, three cans...) Bob never
questioned the customer but instead instructed one of his staff to box up
three more. Ever heard of that kind of customer service in the last 20 years?
I think he even paid the shipping! I am sold on this place and will continue
to add to my already $800.00 total as I see the need.
On another note, I also purchased one of those B-1 Project 1/4 inch
(Rockwell) air drills from Aircraft Tool Sales in Port Muron, Michigan.
(910-364-5885) Other than some wear to the outside of the tool, (Sorry I'm a
Neat Freak) it was well worth the $45.00 I spent. Works Great!
Thanks for your ear and I hope I haven't over stress those few " Too busy to
think / Ole Grumpy Types" out there, but now and then something comes your
way and you just can't ignore it.
Thanks for all the great insight!!
Kevin & Trudy Williams
Dallas, Texas
RV-6A Tail Kit #24438
"THE JIGS UP!..... and T-minus one garage sale to go and
counting...."
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Ski carrying in a RV6? |
RV-listers,
A question from a non-email connected local builder:
Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two
sets of skis inside a RV6???
Personally, I think friction was invented to keep you upright :^) ,
but just passing on the question.
... thanks ... Gil Alexander
PS. No, he doesn't want a RV6S - 'S' for skis (like the RV6F - 'F' for
floats), since he lives in Southern California :^) ... where the local
skiers have to travel to find snow, even in winter :^)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Band saw (fwd) |
>
> Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item
> #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question
> is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job?
(Warning: verbose story about bad experience with Sears
follows. If you don't want to listen to idle whining, skip
this message)
I had one of these saws for about 8 months. It initially seemed pretty
cheaply constructed to me, but it did the job. But one day it suddenly
went from "variable speed" to "constant full speed" -- the electronics
in the switch were dirty or something, so I took it in to the store.
They sent me out to the repair shop at a different location (further
away and not open on Sundays) and I left it there for a week. They
"fixed" it and gave it back. When I picked it up it had a bunch of
black soot all over it that got on my clothes and my car. Then when I
got it home and turned on and the problem was still there. I decided I
wasn't interested in spending any more time/effort on a cheapo $199
tool, so I took it back to the place I bought it and made em take it
back. They were reluctant to do so, kept saying their warranty was
"repair" not "replace", but I persisted (always ask for the manager)
and got the money back and went out and bought a Delta single speed that
I'm happy with.
I don't know if this is the norm with Sears repair service, but what
with the tool coming back covered with soot, and not even fixed, I was
pretty unimpressed with this particular shop. In addition, I was
surprised at the sales dept's reluctance to take back a defective saw
that was still under warranty after their first attempt to fix it
failed.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer.
Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap
model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4
squeezer sets.)
Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to
bend the rivits.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Subject: | RV bolt tolerances |
I am new to the group and am getting close to starting on
my RV-6 wing kit. Below is an article from the Chicago Area
RVators, to which I belong, that I feel was very beneficial
to me, so I am sending it to you.
It is fairly long for an E-Mail, but the author, Paul
McReynolds is considered by most locals to be a true genius
at sheet metal and accompanying equipment.
The article follows:
Basically there are two types of tolerances in building
an RV -- the type that affect the esthetics and the type that affect
the structural integrity of hardware.
There are only four diameters of bolts used in the RVs --
3/16, 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8. Some of the 3/16 bolts should be ream
fitted because of the nature of their application. The 1/4 bolts are
in the control system, bell crank bearings, wing-to-fuselage
attachment, tail spring weldment mount, etc. If you start off with
any movement or sloppiness in these areas, the bolt holes will only
get larger until they might fail. Great care should be taken to make
sure the 1/4 bolts attaching the wing to bulkhead F-404 or F-406)
at the outboard location (4 bolts -- 2 each side) are press fit with no
slack or sloppiness allowed. If only slight looseness is shown,
then go to an NAS bolt. If that doesnt give a tight enough fit, then
go to an oversize bolt. They are available but hard to find. The
main thing is -- dont accept looseness in the critical places (.248
or .249 ream). Use a straight fluted ream in a T handle and turn
by hand only. Using strong, steady force turn clockwise only,
using the fewest turns needed. Continue to turn clockwise as you
withdraw the ream. Never use a power drill.
The most critical 5/16 bolt is the rear wing spar to
fuselage attach. This should be reamed to a force fit (.310 or .311
ream).
The 3/8 bolt holes in the wing main spar are pre-drilled at
the factory but they may require some additional reaming to get the
bolts to go in the holes. You should do this prior to building the
wing or fuselage. It is much easier to do at this time. Also, the 3/8
bolts at the four firewall weldments should be a force fit. If you
start with sloppiness in these holes, the landing loads will eventually
enlarge them and may cause a failure in the engine mount weldment
area (.373 or .374 ream).
There are so many 3/16 bolts in the RV that we cannot cover
them all in this article but we can give examples. Examples of no
reaming necessary would be all of the plastic mounting blocks of
Flap crossbar, rudder crossbar, RV6 canopy hinge blocks, overhead
canopy latch block, etc. (After you drill plastic block to aluminum
part, drill the plastic part with a #10 drill to allow the 3/16 bolt to
fit
freely.)
Examples of 3/16 bolts that require reaming would be the
horizontal stab to fuselage and all push-pull controls. These now
come reamed from the factory, but check them for tightness. You
should try to eliminate all slack in the control system. The only 3/16
bolts in the control system that are not tight are the rudder cable
bolts
and they use a castellated nut and cotter pin for free rotation.
This is a very abbreviated discussion of RV hardware but
you get the idea.
That was the end of the article. Hope you benefited from it.
Bill Costello
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
RV-6, on empennage, expecting wing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Band saw reply |
The Sears band saw will work just fine. I have both a Sears 12" band saw and
a Harbor Freight one. The HF does better on very long pieces such as pipe
and angle because you can cut the material before you run into the throat of
the saw. Get an aluminum cutting blade. It won't load up so bad on thicker
pieces. To taper the spar reinforcing bars, get a special aluminum cutting
carbide radial or table saw blade at Sears, about $59.00. It will do a much
better job and will not require very much smoothing to the cut. It
paractically polishes the cut by itself. It works good on wood too. I have
both a table and a radial arm saw and both have regular carbide blades with
60 teeth. They also make very fine cuts, but not as nice as the aluminum
cutting blade. It must have something to do with the rake and relief of the
teeth.
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
>
> Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item
> #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question
> is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job?
My feeling is it might be kind of minimal for that but I haven't
tried so can't be sure.
> Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use
> a band saw for?
LOTS of stuff. Just trust me, you'll use it.
> Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar
> flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff
> wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a
> table saw?
I used a table saw with a borrowed taper jig. Making a taper jig out of
wood to hold it at the right angle shouldn't be too hard though.
Cutting the strips without gouging was kind of tricky, but it worked. I
used a carbide tipped hollow ground planer (wood finish) blade. Sears
also make metal cutting blades for table saws, more $$ but a smoother
cut.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
Subject: | Re: Steve Frey's Jigs |
Steve also sell a "birdcage option" for 200.00 that is used to
"accurately set up and hold the wing carry through bulkheads to insure proper
angle of incidence, as well as maintain the proper spar gap in the main spar
bulkhead".
this could be attached to your own jig.
don mack
________________________________________________________________________________
by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Gil Alexander wrote:
> RV-listers,
> A question from a non-email connected local builder:
>
> Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two
> sets of skis inside a RV6???
>
Not on the inside but here in NZ i've seen skis attached to the wings
on piper cubs & cessna 172's , just clamped to removable? brackets.
I'm sure they could be slung on removable brackets under/over the
wings without any problems. If he really wants to get carried away
he could make fiberglass pods to stow them in. I seem to remember
seeing an RVator photo showing a setup like this (underwing) for carrying
extra baggage on an RV4 sometime in the last year.
I was planning on installing a light fibreglass /or pvc tube in the fuse
of my 6 to carry some fly fishing rods, using an opening in the baggage
compartment bulkhead for access. Haven't quite worked out where the
accoustic guitar will fit yet though.. :)
Steve,
P.S. Gil, did you get my e-mail with the tip up canopy inst. drawings ??
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Subject: | RV Bolt Tolerances |
I am new to the group and am getting close to starting on
my RV-6 wing kit. Below is an article from the Chicago Area
RVators, to which I belong, that I feel was very beneficial
to me, so I am sending it to you.
It is fairly long for an E-Mail, but the author, Paul
McReynolds is considered by most locals to be a true genius
at sheet metal and accompanying equipment.
The article follows:
Basically there are two types of tolerances in building
an RV -- the type that affect the esthetics and the type that affect
the structural integrity of hardware.
There are only four diameters of bolts used in the RVs --
3/16, 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8. Some of the 3/16 bolts should be ream
fitted because of the nature of their application. The 1/4 bolts are
in the control system, bell crank bearings, wing-to-fuselage
attachment, tail spring weldment mount, etc. If you start off with
any movement or sloppiness in these areas, the bolt holes will only
get larger until they might fail. Great care should be taken to make
sure the 1/4 bolts attaching the wing to bulkhead F-404 or F-406)
at the outboard location (4 bolts -- 2 each side) are press fit with no
slack or sloppiness allowed. If only slight looseness is shown,
then go to an NAS bolt. If that doesnt give a tight enough fit, then
go to an oversize bolt. They are available but hard to find. The
main thing is -- dont accept looseness in the critical places (.248
or .249 ream). Use a straight fluted ream in a T handle and turn
by hand only. Using strong, steady force turn clockwise only,
using the fewest turns needed. Continue to turn clockwise as you
withdraw the ream. Never use a power drill.
The most critical 5/16 bolt is the rear wing spar to
fuselage attach. This should be reamed to a force fit (.310 or .311
ream).
The 3/8 bolt holes in the wing main spar are pre-drilled at
the factory but they may require some additional reaming to get the
bolts to go in the holes. You should do this prior to building the
wing or fuselage. It is much easier to do at this time. Also, the 3/8
bolts at the four firewall weldments should be a force fit. If you
start with sloppiness in these holes, the landing loads will eventually
enlarge them and may cause a failure in the engine mount weldment
area (.373 or .374 ream).
There are so many 3/16 bolts in the RV that we cannot cover
them all in this article but we can give examples. Examples of no
reaming necessary would be all of the plastic mounting blocks of
Flap crossbar, rudder crossbar, RV6 canopy hinge blocks, overhead
canopy latch block, etc. (After you drill plastic block to aluminum
part, drill the plastic part with a #10 drill to allow the 3/16 bolt to
fit
freely.)
Examples of 3/16 bolts that require reaming would be the
horizontal stab to fuselage and all push-pull controls. These now
come reamed from the factory, but check them for tightness. You
should try to eliminate all slack in the control system. The only 3/16
bolts in the control system that are not tight are the rudder cable
bolts
and they use a castellated nut and cotter pin for free rotation.
This is a very abbreviated discussion of RV hardware but
you get the idea.
That was the end of the article. Hope you benefited from it.
Bill Costello
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
RV-6, on empennage, expecting wing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook |
From: | "Kevin E. Vap" <kvap(at)solar.sky.net> |
-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
I just got back from EAA Chapter 868 meeting tonight. Gary McDaniel
(building an RV-4) had purchased the Flight Manual I mentioned in a message
a few days ago from that place in Colorado.
He recommended not spending the $10. According to him, it was a T-6 book
that was filled in with some generic RV numbers, and not done well at all.
-Kevin Vap
RV-6
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
Subject: | Re: Drilling for tie down bracket |
>> One question I haven't solved yet is how do you drill the tie
>> down bracket to the predrilled spar reinforcing angle? An angle drill
>> might work, but I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. For those of
I got a 12" long drill bit and used that - it's stiff but you can get enough
flex over the length to do the job. I had looked in catalogs at right
angle drills but couldn't find one that would get close enough.
The long bit worked great and was a lot cheaper.
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a (still plugging away on the wings...)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Subject: | RV Bolt Tolerances (again) |
Hi Everybody,
I think I just discovered another thing that cannot be done. I have a
fairly lengthy message that I cleverly thought I would prepare in Word
for Windows 6.0, then copy and paste into my E-Mail message. Looks
like it really screws things up. So I will re-do it here in E-Mail and
send it again.
I belong to the Chicago Area RVators and there is an article in their
newsletter that I found very informative and thought you might too. It
is by Paul McReynolds, who locals here think is a true genius when it
comes to sheet metal and related topics. The article follows.
Basically there are two types of tolerances in building an RV --
the type that affect the esthetics and the type that affect the
structural integrity of hardware.
There are only four diameters of bolts used in the RVs -- 3/16,
1/4, 5/16 and 3/8. Some of the 3/16 bolts should be ream fitted
because of the nature of their application. The 1/4 bolts are in the
control system, bell crank bearings, wing-to-fuselage attachment, tail
spring weldment mount, etc. If you start off with any movement or
sloppiness in these areas, the bolt holes will only get larger until
they might fail. Great care should be taken to make sure the 1/4 bolts
attaching the wing to bulkhead (F-404 or F-406) at the outboard
location (4 bolts -- 2 each side) are press fit with no slack or
sloppiness allowed. If only slight looseness is shown, then go to an
NAS bolt. If that doesn't give a tight enough fit, then go to an
oversize bolt. They are available but hard to find. The main thing is
-- don't accept looseness in the critical places (.248 or .249 ream).
Use a straight fluted ream in a "T" handle and turn by hand only.
Using strong, steady force turn clockwise only, using the fewest turns
needed. Continue to turn clockwise as you withdraw the ream. Never
use a power drill.
The most critical 5/16 bolt is the rear wing spar-to-fuselage
attach. This should be reamed to a force fit (.310 or .311 ream).
The 3/8 bolt holes in the wing main spar are pre-drilled at the
factory but they may require some additional reaming to get the bolts
to go in the holes. You should do this prior to building the wing or
fuselage. It is much easier to do at this time. Also, the 3/8 bolts
at the four firewall weldments should be a force fit. If you start
with sloppiness in these holes, the landing loads will eventurally
enlarge them and may cause a failure in the engine mount weldment area
(.373 or .374 ream).
There are so many 3/16 bolts in the RV that we cannot cover them
all in this article but we can give examples. Examples of no reaming
necessary would be all of the plastic mounting blocks of flap crossbar,
rudder crossbar, RV6 canopy hinge blocks, overhead canopy latch block,
etc. (After you drill plastic block to aluminum part, drill the
plastic part with a #10 drill to allow the 3/16 bolt to fit freely.)
Examples of 3/16 bolts that require reaming would be the horizontal
stab-to-fuselage and all push-pull controls. These now come reamed
from the factory, but check them for tightness. You should try to
eliminate all slack in the control system. The only 3/16 bolts in the
control system that are not tight are the rudder cable bolts and they
use a castellated nut and cotter pin for free rotation.
This is a very abbreviated discussion of RV hardware but you get
the idea.
That ends the article from Paul. I am just about to start on my wings
and hope you found it as informative as I did.
Bill Costello
RV6 - trying to finish empennage b4 wing kit arrives
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Steve Frey's Jigs |
Steve can be reached at 215-692-3553. His shop is in West Chester, PA.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Hand Sqeezers |
>
> I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer.
> Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap
> model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4
> squeezer sets.)
> Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to
> bend the rivits.
TATCO!!! If you're still not convinced, I'll let you have my US Air Tool
squeezer cheap. I bought a Tatco soon after using the US Tool one.
I use a 3" and a 1" yoke. Anything farther than 3" from the edge either gets
hit with the big rivet/dimpling tool (Avery) or a rivet gun. The 1" yoke
will do up to 1/8" rivets (never tried larger, I don't have the arms), and
I don't use the 3" yoke on anything over 1/8". Either yoke will dimple just
about anything/any size.
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
fuselage due 15 Sept
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
> RV-listers,
> A question from a non-email connected local builder:
>
> Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two
> sets of skis inside a RV6???
>
-- snip --
I was planning on installing a light fibreglass /or pvc tube in the fuse
of my 6 to carry some fly fishing rods, using an opening in the baggage
compartment bulkhead for access. Haven't quite worked out where the
accoustic guitar will fit yet though.. :)
Funny, my RV-4 fuse is just about ready to be skinned (finishing some
mods to the throttle/trim quadrant - boy, make one change and ...) and
my wife stopped to look at it bringing her skis. She said, "where
will these go"? Well, maybe in the -6 you can find a place through
and behind the baggage compartment, but when I weighed the skis and a
PVC pipe to hold two pairs, I figured that the I would have serious
problems with aft CG. It was fun to play with placement while still
in the jig, but my skis are *very* long (one pair of 215cm) and it
would have been tight.
I told her that we'll have to come up with an alternative such as
leaving the skis at our favorite ski area, or rent a condo, or rent a
different plane, ... no sense ruining the great RV-4 :-)
Mike Pilla
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
Subject: | Re[2]: Steve Frey's Jigs |
But constructing a wooden jig is not as easy as it used to be. The
phrase "Kiln Dried" seems to no longer be in the vocabulary of most
sources of lumber. I know that the Lumber at my local Home Depot is
very fresh off the tree. I have some that has sat around for a few
months, and I have seen curly french fries that are straighter ;-)
One of the rv-listers, Tom Goeddel, put me onto a building materials
place that has *dry* lumber; red cedar if I recall. There are placaes
that cater to people who want better lumber. You still want it to sit
around in your environment for a while, though.
It appears to me that the only requirement for the fuselage jig is to
keep the bulkhead attach points from moving either vertically or
longitudenally. The rest of the jig can warp like crazy and it won't
matter, right?
As long as the jig doesn't warp/change while working on the fuse,
there shouldn't be a problem. I installed some plastic clamps (three
on each side) so that I could attach a water level made from vinyl
tubing and check things out from time to time.
The Frey *bulkhead fixture*, while nice doesn't appear to be
necessary. Van provides the critical dimensions and I just used some
3/8" threaded rod through a spar substitute (made from a *planed*
piece of 2x6 red cedar) and the front of the jig. Once clamped in
place, it isn't going anywhere. Doesn't take long and is a heck of a
lot cheaper than $200 or thereabouts.
Mike Pilla
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Hand Sqeezers |
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, EDWARD COLE wrote:
> I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer.
> Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap
> model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4
> squeezer sets.)
> Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to
> bend the rivits.
>
DO NOT GET A CHEAP SQUEEZER!!!! That's one of the tools you will use the
most often. Get the best squeezer you can buy.
I have a Tatco, and it is a very good tool. If I hade to do it over
again, I would probably by the Avery Squeezer. The handles are a little
longer so you get more leverage, and it uses the same yokes as the
pneumatic squeezer.
As for yokes, I think the best choice for a general-purpose is
a 2-1/2 yoke.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Gil Alexander wrote:
> RV-listers,
> A question from a non-email connected local builder:
>
> Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two
> sets of skis inside a RV6???
Though I've not seen one installed in an RV-6, I've seen other airplanes
with Ski Tubes installed. They generally run down the inside of the
tailcone. The front end is at the rear wall of the baggage compartment.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
From: | "Earl Brabandt" <ewbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Hi builders,
> with Ski Tubes installed. They generally run down the inside of the
> tailcone. The front end is at the rear wall of the baggage compartment.
If you're very concerned with CG, you might consider bringing the tube
forward such that the skis extend into the baggage compartment. Design
it so you can insert the skis tips first; the bindings (heavy) will then
be located more forward. Obviously alpine skis create greater weight
penalties than light touring nordic skis or fishing poles.
Or you could just take up snowboarding! (Can't believe I'm even suggesting
that).
By the way, being a skier and windsurfer, I've noticed that the natural
elements continue to impede my progress in building my RV-6. Yeah, the
elements -- like wind and snow!
Cal (N66VR in progress)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools |
Terrence
I bought the Avery tool kit and have been very satisfied with it
and the rivet gun. One point I did not like was that Avery includes a
circle cutter that cuts up to 4 inches, unfortunately you need to cut 6
inch circles in the wing tank ribs. Get the larger cirlce cutter.
Bob Busick
RV-6
> the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob
> talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments
> about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic.
>
> Thanx!
>
>
> Terry in Calgary
> S/N 24414
> "Attending Sept. Builders' Conference"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Bulkhead alignment - was Steve Frey's Jigs |
**** Mike's message cut ****
>
> The Frey *bulkhead fixture*, while nice doesn't appear to be
> necessary. Van provides the critical dimensions and I just used some
> 3/8" threaded rod through a spar substitute (made from a *planed*
> piece of 2x6 red cedar) and the front of the jig. Once clamped in
> place, it isn't going anywhere. Doesn't take long and is a heck of a
> lot cheaper than $200 or thereabouts.
>
> Mike Pilla
I used 4 alum. yard sticks clamped to the bulkead flanges. Use
them between the securely fastened firewall and the F604, and from the F604
to F605 bulkheads. Use two between each of the bulkheads, one on the left
side, and one on the right side. Firmly locate the bulkheads at the
longeron level first. Then work on the F605 and F606 bottom edges using
edge-gip Clecos, slide the bulkheads around to locate them, and then change
to C-clamps when alignment is close. I also cut down a similar yard stick
to be an _exact_ spacer between the main and aft spars. I could then use
this to convince myself that the wings would fit the fuselage later [ they
did :^) ].
One of the keys is to locate the firewall exactly to create a good
reference for all other measurements, especially getting it at 90 degrees
to the centerline. Luckily the firewall is easy to shim into alignment
using washers at the mounting bolts that hold it to the jig uprights.
The above was easy to do, and a lot cheaper than the fixture
referenced above. Trade the time/energy savings for a pnuematic squeezer
:^)
... Gil Alexander, RV6a, #20701 .... the wings did fit ...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Stanley C. Blanton" <75472.372(at)dcgw01.compuserve.com> |
Subject: | Ski carrying in a RV6? |
Regarding skis in an RV6,
Since I first decided to build an RV6 I have thought about the possibility of
using it for ski trips. Two distinct possibilities occur to me.
The first is to carry the skis in a mount mounted under the belly similar to a
belly fuel tank. It would have to be long but not very long in diameter. Groung
clearance might be a problem in a -6 but less so in a -6A.
The more promising method I have considered is to build a tube or possibly just
some support rings inside the tail cone. The skis would of course have to
penetrate the rear bulkhead of the baggage compartment. The tails might rest
even with your shoulders between the seats seats to keep the weight as far
forward as possible. With manual flaps the skis could even rest further forward.
Care would need to be taken to keep the skis away from the control rod for the
elevator. I'd be interested in sharing ideas/solutions with anyone.
Stan Blanton
RV-6
Fitting the flaps & ailerons
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
>
> By the way, being a skier and windsurfer, I've noticed that the natural
^^^^^^^^^^
> elements continue to impede my progress in building my RV-6. Yeah, the
> elements -- like wind and snow!
>
> Cal (N66VR in progress)
>
I bet you plan to build a glider/trailer for that longboard ;-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | Tank Sealing Options |
>Mike Graves said;
>
>I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of sorts.
>Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around the
>dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job.
An A&P friend of mine who works at McDonnell Douglas Corp. told me that they
apply the PRC (different company, but same material as ProSeal) to all of the
parts which are cleco'd in place until the material cures. (fill all of the
holes with cleco's) Once the material has cured, you rivet the tank ribs, and
then go over the rivets and flange to form a fillet on everything. (PRC has a
different color material for a third time seal brush coat) Then you do the same
again for the rear tank plate.
We did this on John Peaslee's RV-4 tanks, and it works very well. It was
definitely simpler and cleaner than the wet method I used on my RV-3 wing tanks.
I mentioned this to another friend of mine building a RV-4, and he says that
Grumman calls out the same process.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 Attended VAN's Fly-in. Electric tach had been intermittently
grounding mags. Engine ran great for 1.2 hours of flight time before I left for
VAN's, as well as the flight there and back. (Small supercharged engines perform
different than the Lyc O-320 RV-3 I flew with.)
RV-4 Parts still collecting dust.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
> Since I first decided to build an RV6 I have thought about the possibility of
> using it for ski trips. Two distinct possibilities occur to me.
>
If the bindings are not to large, one could make a tube to slide into
the lightning holes in the main wing ribs from access pannels in the wing
tips. If the skis were strapped together with the bindings together insted
of the normal carry method they would fit in a smaller tube. The extra Lbs.
may cause a slower roll but I woud _assume_ that would be preferable to a
tail heavy condition. Extra fuel tanks could be put in the area also.
Chris
P.S. I bet this one starts another mail storm.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re[2]: Tank Sealing Options |
>>Mike Graves said;
>>
>>I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of sorts.
>>Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around the
>>dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job.
>
>An A&P friend of mine who works at McDonnell Douglas Corp. told me that they
>apply the PRC (different company, but same material as ProSeal) to all of the
>parts which are cleco'd in place until the material cures. (fill all of the
>holes with cleco's) Once the material has cured, you rivet the tank ribs, and
Jim,
... Isn't there a danger of gluing in the clecos permanently into
the rivet holes? It would slow the plane down as well as looking tacky :^)
Did you have to do anything special to make sure this doesn't
happen?? It does sound like an easier approach.
... Gil Alexander ... still got one tank to go ...
>then go over the rivets and flange to form a fillet on everything. (PRC has a
>different color material for a third time seal brush coat) Then you do the
>same
>again for the rear tank plate.
>
>We did this on John Peaslee's RV-4 tanks, and it works very well. It was
>definitely simpler and cleaner than the wet method I used on my RV-3 wing
>tanks.
>
>I mentioned this to another friend of mine building a RV-4, and he says that
>Grumman calls out the same process.
>
>
>Jim Ayers
>LOM RV-3 Attended VAN's Fly-in. Electric tach had been intermittently
>grounding mags. Engine ran great for 1.2 hours of flight time before I left
>for
>VAN's, as well as the flight there and back. (Small supercharged engines
>perform
>different than the Lyc O-320 RV-3 I flew with.)
>RV-4 Parts still collecting dust.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
On the RV-6 there's about 50" aft of the spar before you get to the
aileron push-pull tube. Forward of the spar it's around 55" to the
tank. Too short for most skiis, however I know of at least one RV-4
builder who is installing a tube in his LE holes for his fishing rods.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> If the bindings are not to large, one could make a tube to slide into
> the lightning holes in the main wing ribs from access pannels in the wing
> tips. If the skis were strapped together with the bindings together insted
> of the normal carry method they would fit in a smaller tube. The extra Lbs.
> may cause a slower roll but I woud _assume_ that would be preferable to a
> tail heavy condition. Extra fuel tanks could be put in the area also.
>
> Chris
>
> P.S. I bet this one starts another mail storm.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jimcruson(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Ski carrying in an RV-6? |
I was at an EAA fly in at Ashland, Oregon in April or May of this year and
there happened to be an RV-6 equipped with a ski tube! It was fashioned from
a large sheet of aluminum rolled into a cylinder with the edges overlapped
and riveted. It was located inside the fuselage with the opening behind the
passenger's head. The opening was flush with the rear wall of the baggage
compartment and it extended down the tail cone.I don't know what the aluminum
thickness was. The builder said it worked well but was careful to explain
that all of his weight and balance calculations were performed with two pairs
of skis in place at the time. I don't think he went so far as to add skis to
his equipment list though! This RV-6 had the tip-up canopy. He also had
the 180HP lycoming with constant speed prop for plenty of weight up front
which helped him overcome any aft CG problems. I am not sure, but it seems
we may have discussed a removable weight placed far forward in the cockpit
when the skis were in place (I do not know for sure if this is accurate or
not but I seem to remember it from somewhere) Interestingly, it also had a
large dive brake attached to the underside of the fuselage approximately in
line with the flaps. It was operated by a lever which in most RV's would
operate the flaps (his flaps were electric). He said he originally
installed the brake to help out in the event he got overspeed during
aerobatic maneuvers but found that it was also an asset to get into short
backcountry fields with . I believe the owner lived in Medford, OR if you
wanted to try and track him down for more details. I believe he said he
kept his plane based at the Medford airport. Hope this is of some help!
Jim Cruson
RV6/6A (halfway through empennage)
________________________________________________________________________________
Hey guys, I've been following the messages for quite a while now and my
plain old pine (untreated) 2x4's with particle board caps have survived a
very hot and humid summer in southern illinois without any problems. My shop
is in my un-aircondition garage and the jig is still as true today as it was
in April when I constructed it. Just periodically check your alignment
strings (as per the plans) and you won't have any problems. If you believe a
prefabricated metal jig is important then by all means do it! My investment
in jig material and hardware is $62.15. If you do invest in an expensive
metal jig you will more than likely be able to sell it after your plane is
constructed. I plan on recycling my tail and wing jig lumber into a fuselage
jig in about 5 months.
One last thing: It was information on this net that ultimately steered me to
a simple wood jig.
Happy building
chet razer in Sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in an RV-6? |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Item Subject: Ski carrying in an RV-6?
Good discussions with some lateral solutions! It may be worth considering the
safety implications of some of these ideas though :-)
>>I was at an EAA fly in at Ashland, Oregon in April or May of this year and
>>there happened to be an RV-6 equipped with a ski tube!
>> It was located inside the fuselage with the opening behind the
>>passenger's head.
Not a pretty sight when you run off the end of the runway and hit a tree!
Regards
Mike P
RV6 - gearing up and studying plans
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | kingm(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
Subject: | Vertical Card Compass |
I'm starting to get serious about laying out an instrument panel for our
-6A. We will have a tip up canopy and would prefer not to mount a floating
compass on the top of the dash. I know this question was asked some time
ago, but has anyone had any experience with a vertical card compass? It
looks interesting from a size and cost perspective, but does it work?
Also, anyone had any bad experiences with panel mounting a liquid filled
compass?
Monte King
Oak Harbor, Wa
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH) |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
I haven't seen anybody strap skis to a wing before but I do know a
guy who flew his plane to a hunting lodge out in the woods, shot an 8
point buck, and was so persistent in getting it home in one peice
that he tied it to the wing close to the fuselage. Can anyone do
better than that?
Kurt Keilbach
RV 6a (still working on those wings...)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in an RV-6? |
On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 HP-Australia-om1.om.hp.com!MIKE_PARKINSON(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> Not a pretty sight when you run off the end of the runway and hit a tree!
>
Plan on doing this often? :-)
I would HOPE the skis are strapped securely into the tube.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
>
> On the RV-6 there's about 50" aft of the spar before you get to the
> aileron push-pull tube. Forward of the spar it's around 55" to the
> tank. Too short for most skiis, however I know of at least one RV-4
> builder who is installing a tube in his LE holes for his fishing rods.
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6
>
You are correct sir. I hadn't thought of that. Even my 185s would
hang out the wing tip.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
Subject: | Hand Sqeezers -Reply |
I own the tatco and find that it is lacking
in some respects. I can not reliably sqeeze
1/8 riviets with it. I have the larger
throat yoke. 3" I think.
The new Avery made one looks like the way to
go to me. Longer handle for more leverage
and you can use your pneumatic squeezer
yokes so you are not double buying.
>>> EDWARD COLE
09/11/95 05:37pm >>>
I need some experienced opinions before I
buy a hand squeezer.
Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's
own brand, or a cheap model listed in US
Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes
and 4 squeezer sets.)
Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I
understand the 3" tends to bend the rivits.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Subject: | buck on the wing |
>
> I haven't seen anybody strap skis to a wing before but I do know a
> guy who flew his plane to a hunting lodge out in the woods, shot an 8
> point buck, and was so persistent in getting it home in one peice
> that he tied it to the wing close to the fuselage. Can anyone do
> better than that?
>
> Kurt Keilbach
> RV 6a (still working on those wings...)
>
>
Kurt,
Sounds like an idea for an STC. Imagine antlers attached to each wing,
similar to the texas longhorns on a cadillac! ;-)
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ski carrying in a RV6? |
>
> I haven't seen anybody strap skis to a wing before but I do know a
> guy who flew his plane to a hunting lodge out in the woods, shot an 8
> point buck, and was so persistent in getting it home in one peice
> that he tied it to the wing close to the fuselage. Can anyone do
> better than that?
>
> Kurt Keilbach
> RV 6a (still working on those wings...)
>
>
My dad tells a story of a guy that did the same thing. He nearly killed
himself just trying to get back to the strip after TO. It seems that a large
buck changes the flight characteristics of a Cherokee. So much for the old
addage "...it takes big bucks to fly..." ;-)
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Ski's in an RV-6 (again) |
I think everybody is getting some bad advice regarding puting skis in an RV.
My thoughts:
1. You CAN NOT run skis through the lighting holes in the wings. How are you
going to get them into your wings??? For those of you that have not attached
your wings to fuselage yet be advised; if you don't run your push rods in the
wings before attaching them to the fuselage first...you can not get 'em in.
With this in mind...how will you ever get ski's in these very same holes???
2. If you run the skis in the tail cone you will have an aft CG problem.
Think about it...One pound at the tail has the effect on CG of about 100
pounds in the baggage compartment (that's a guess). Not to mention that you
have your bell crank and push rods back there. I wouldn't mess around trying
to make the tail cone a baggage area.
3. External ski tubes may work fine on a 75 mph cub but I have to beleive
that they will have an adverse aerodynamic effect on an RV at 180 mph.
Additionally, I don't know about you, but I would hate to get to my
destination and fine two empty brackets where my skis once were! Look-out
below.
I haven't taken any measurements, but if you did not install the center
support (some people don't for leg room, but they should because it's
structual) from the IP to the fuel selector, and you have electric flaps, you
might be able to run the skis from the battery box to the aft baggage
bulkhead. A pair of 180's are just short of 6' so I'm sure they will fit
this way.
Maybe you might want to use shorter skis when using the RV for transport.
Or, if you insist on skiing on boards that are to long to fit into your RV,
maybe you should rent an aircraft that they FIT INTO!
Before anybody starts to play with an aft CG, do yourself a favor...call
Van's and get some "professional" help. They know better than anybody else
where the end of the control envelope is.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
I normally just read the list, but with all the talk about tools I had to
add my two
cents. I am new to aircraft building and their specialized tools, but I
have worked
with tools all my life. I have been teaching Automotive Mechanics for
twelve years, and worked in the trade for an additional seven, I am also an
ASE Certified Master Technician. I learned early on that you get what you
pay for. There is a big difference between a cheap tool and an expensive
tool. Most off the shelf tools, (including craftsman) are bid out to be
built. That means that the lowest bidder gets to make their tools. I have
bought some tools such as compressors like this, but in general I will only
buy tools from their manufacturer or a distributor. I have made my living
with hand and pneumatic tools, been payed by the job, and have learned that
time is money.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Ski's in an RV-6 (again) |
>
> 1. You CAN NOT run skis through the lighting holes in the wings. How are you
> going to get them into your wings??? For those of you that have not attached
> your wings to fuselage yet be advised; if you don't run your push rods in the
> wings before attaching them to the fuselage first...you can not get 'em in.
> With this in mind...how will you ever get ski's in these very same holes???
>
I think I said something about access pannels in the wingtips.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Vertical Card Compass |
On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Monte King wrote:
> I'm starting to get serious about laying out an instrument panel for our
> -6A. We will have a tip up canopy and would prefer not to mount a floating
> compass on the top of the dash. I know this question was asked some time
> ago, but has anyone had any experience with a vertical card compass? It
> looks interesting from a size and cost perspective, but does it work?
> Also, anyone had any bad experiences with panel mounting a liquid filled
> compass?
Careful examination of the catalogs will show that there is no such thing
as a panel-mounted vertical card compass. Apparently, this is because
they are very sensitive to vibration.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Apologies to the Listers (REAL CHATTER) |
Remi
We all have bad days and I to should have been a little more diplomatic in my
response to you. Anyway I am glad that you are still here thank you for the
space for Van's homepage.
Now lets get back to what we all are here for and that is building and flying
one of the best kit airplanes on the market and meeting other builders and
flyers and trying to help and learn from each other.
Hope to see you again at a RV gathering.
Jerry Springer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Ski's in an RV-6 (again) |
>I haven't taken any measurements, but if you did not install the center
>support (some people don't for leg room, but they should because it's
>structual) from the IP to the fuel selector,
Hi Gary
I am one of those people that did away with the center support and I am glad
that I did because it sure makes it a lot more comfortable to fly with more
room to move your legs around on a long trip.
The people that I talked to at Van's seemed to think that it is not
structual, I don't think that the two rivets or screws that hold it to the IP
would hold very much.
Jerry Springer N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | Re: Vertical Card Compass |
I tried a vertical card compass in my RV-6. I mounted it on the top of the
dash on an aluminum plate. I had to mount the compass so that it set about
two inches out from the dash edge because of the canopy. It was still rigid
enuf, or so I thought. When I started up the engine the dial started to
rotate about at a rate of 30 to 40 rpm. Real cute but not very practical.
I don't know if the vibration/rotation is peculiar to my aircraft but, in
any case, I'd be willing to make a real nice deal with you on a vertical
card compass.
>I'm starting to get serious about laying out an instrument panel for our
>-6A. We will have a tip up canopy and would prefer not to mount a floating
>compass on the top of the dash. I know this question was asked some time
>ago, but has anyone had any experience with a vertical card compass? It
>looks interesting from a size and cost perspective, but does it work?
>Also, anyone had any bad experiences with panel mounting a liquid filled
>compass?
>
>
>Monte King
>Oak Harbor, Wa
>
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
Dick, there's one last thing I forgot to mention regarding the Andy Snips.
As you use them you will discover that long cuts (1" or longer) will always
result in a very noticable stress mark. John Shoemaker showed me that
somewhere toward the center of the blades is sort of a sweet spot and if you
can limit each snip to that spot and only make about a 1/4" cut or less each
time you can almost eliminate or at least significantly reduce the size and
visibility of the stress mark. I also noticed that hand fatigue also results
in stress marks along the cut. I dont't know if all this is important or not
but I finished all my cuts by filing the edges just a bit. I think another
possibility is making the cuts with a cutoff tool in your drill or hand
grinder but I haven't tried that yet. I seems to me that when I first began
following this forum and the RV6 forum on AOL there was a lot of discussion
about stress marks along cut lines. Maby we can get away from the ski pole
thing and resurrect cutting aluminum.
Chet
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
Subject: | Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate
pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags.
Question:
Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start.
I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage
can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard
wrong?
Any takers?
Ken
RV6a
(finishing off the wiring....nearly there!!)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
>Mayby we can get away from the ski pole
>thing and resurrect cutting aluminum.
>
>Che
My partner and I have built two tail kits for rv6's and are now
working on the first wing kit. We've given up on snips and use a
muffler cut off wheel from Pep Boys in an angled die grinder, a large
cutting wheel from a hobby shop for a dremel tool, and the little
cutters that come with the dremel tool. These tools cut fast, clean,
and do not bend the aluminum sheet. The snips are the least used
tools in our arsenal.
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
>
> My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate
> pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags.
>
> Question:
> Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start.
> I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage
> can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard
> wrong?
>
> Any takers?
>
> Ken
>
> RV6a
Yes you should select the left mag only. At low RPM the right mag fires
to early and will cause "kick-back". This is not very good for the Bendix
drive in the starter. It can also cause dammage to the nose casting of the
starter. Even if you have the mags timed properly, and only the left mag
selected you can get the same problem if the battery is low or there is some
sort of problen delivering current to the starter. 85W had a problem with
the main battery cable at the point that it passed through the firewall.
The cable was old and about half of the strands were broken. This produced
a slow cranking condition and that led to the above described kick-back
problem. Replaceing the entire current path from the battery box to the
starter cured the kick-back. To bad we had to buy two Bendix drives ($60)
and a nose casting about ($250) before we resolved the problem.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
Subject: | Starting a Lycoming with Slicks -Reply |
This was certainly true in my 65 Cherokee. I
went through 3 starter motor drives before I
learned to turn on left mag only. The left
mag has an impulse coupling that retards the
timing. If the right mag is also turned on
it will fire at the normal advanced position
which is BTDC. This drives the piston back
down turning the crank the wrong way
ocassionaly knocking teeth off the starter
drive or shearing a drive key.
I doesn't happen every time I think because
the impulse coupling also increases the
intensity of the spark by snapping forward
speeding up movenent of the magnet. But
sometimes most likely when the engine is hot
it will fire on the right mag before the
left mag gets to fire.
Once I learned this no more broken starters.
BTW, until I got educated, I could change a
starter in 20 minutes on a cherokee 180. The
starter drives I took to a local automotive
Alt. and starter shop and they pressed new
gears on for $9.00.
>>> J.Ken Hitchmough
09/13/95 09:20pm
>>>
My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch
for the magnetos with a separate pushbutton
for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a
has Slick mags.
Question:
Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one
with the impulse coupler) to start.
I have heard that with BOTH selected during
the start sequence, serious damage can
occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition
switch works or have I heard wrong?
Any takers?
Ken
RV6a
(finishing off the wiring....nearly there!!)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto
Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Vertical Compass Cards |
Those VCC's are very sensitive to the magnetic fields created in the aircraft
electrical system. Put on a landing light, key the mic, turn on the strobes
and watch it go round and round.
Some of the RV-4's in my hanger have had great success with a remote mounted
compasses. The actual compass (a sheilded unit that measures about 5 inches
around and 3 inches high) can be installed under the baggage compartment
floor (away from most of the magnetic interference) and the vertical card can
be mounted in a hole in your IP.
It provides very smooth and accurate information.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Subject: | Snips vs Die Grinder |
I don't use the snips very much either. Mine tend to leave small
serrations at the edge, bend or warp the metal, leave stress marks,
etc. Of course, it just MIGHT be my technique!
I use 1/32 inch cutoff wheels in a straight or an angled air die
grinder (I have both from Harbor Freight, which seem to work well).
When making a long cut, I often c-clamp angle irons on one or both
sides of the sheet to be cut. I cover the side of the angle iron that
contacts the sheet with masking tape to keep it from marring the
aluminum. This gives me the confidence that I cannot wander into the
finished part with the grinder. With more confidence gained, sometimes
I do the whole thing very carefully "free-hand" and have done well.
One of my drawbacks is that I have a 25 gallon compressor (Sears) and I
have to pause often to let it catch up -- those die grinders reall eat
up the air.
Hope this helps.
Bill Costello
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
RV6 - trying to finish the empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Vertical Compass Cards |
Those VCC's are very sensitive to the magnetic fields created in the aircraft
electrical system. Put on a landing light, key the mic, turn on the strobes
and watch it go round and round.
Some of the RV-4's in my hanger have had great success with a remote mounted
compasses. The actual compass (a sheilded unit that measures about 5 inches
around and 3 inches high) can be installed under the baggage compartment
floor (away from most of the magnetic interference) and the vertical card can
be mounted in a hole in your IP.
It provides very smooth and accurate information.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
>My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate
>pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags.
>
>Question:
>Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start.
>--
Yes - the ignition switch is normally wired such that in the "Start"
position the Left mag (one with impulse coupler) is the only one not
grounded.
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404
DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246
FORE Systems FAX: (301) 564-4408
6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com
Bethesda, MD 20817
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Subject: | Starting a Lycoming with Slicks (fwd) |
Yes, you want to start on the Left mag (which as the impulse coupling).
The normal key start switch will ground the right mag when you put the
key into the start position. Thus, you start on the left mag.
(This assumes you wire up the switch properly :) ).
If you just use toggle switchs or a switch with R/L/ Both, then
set the switch so only the left mag is on for starting.
I hand prop my Pitts and I set the switch on 'Left' and then when it
starts I go around to the cockpit and move the switch to 'Both'.
Remember that most mag switches are backwards in that the 'Left' mag
position is actually to the right most position and the 'Right' mag
hot is with the key in the left most position.
All the above applies to any engine/mag where there is only one
impulse coupling.
Herman
> Organization: Magic Online Services Inc.
> Subject: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate
> pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags.
>
> Question:
> Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start.
> I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage
> can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard
> wrong?
>
> Any takers?
>
> Ken
>
> RV6a
> (finishing off the wiring....nearly there!!)
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
for rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
Hi All,
There aren't many instructions on rivet spacing strategies for the
horizontal stabilizer skins. Did anyone find a strategy that seemed to
work well? I was thinking of marking the location of the rivet on the rear
spar flange and measuring up 1 and 1/4 inch on the ribs all the way to the
leading edge and adjusting the spacing where neccessary.
Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically
pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar
rivet spacing tools worth the money?
thanks,
John
(Cable TV installed in garage. Nothing like watching Monday night football
while building an airplane!)
ps. Frank Justice's latest manual addition document (Removing the Fuselage
from the Jig) has been published to my web page. Feel free to dowload.
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
>
> Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically
> pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar
> rivet spacing tools worth the money?
>
The "rivet fan" is a must have tool. Don't drill holes without it.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Randy S. McCallister" <rmccalli(at)runet.edu> |
I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that
I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the
future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8?
- Randy (RV-6 tail)
________________________________________________________________________________
Question:
What have people done as far as extra fuel tanks on rv's?
I don't see a big need for this as I suspect fuel won't be a
limiting factor for most. I might be interested in just a couple
more gallons due to my personal RV mission.
Also, since most aviation accidents are fuel starvation (I know,
it wouldn't happen to anyone on the rv list though), what about
something like a reserve tank.
On motorcyles I've owned, I loved the reserve tank. I never
worried about gas. If I ever ran it out, I just switched to
reserve and headed for a gas station. For non-cyclists, the
implementation was actually one tank with two pick-ups, one
shorter than the other. When the fuel dropped below the level
of the taller (main tank) pickup, the rider could switch to
the shorter (pseudo reserve tank) pickup, and get the last 20%
or so out of the tank. The nice thing about that was it was
absolutely accurate, unlike a fuel gauge. At that point I
knew exactly how much fuel I had left!
What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
of it?
Don
PS Credit to my friend Wayne for helping me with the idea.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
> There aren't many instructions on rivet spacing strategies for the
> horizontal stabilizer skins. Did anyone find a strategy that seemed to
> work well?
First, I would not be too concerned about producing n aesthetically
pleasing rivet pattern. Once the airplane is painted, the rivets are
just not going to be noticable enough to be worth a lot of effort.
>I was thinking of marking the location of the rivet on the rear
> spar flange and measuring up 1 and 1/4 inch on the ribs all the way to the
> leading edge and adjusting the spacing where neccessary.
That works fine. The other thing you can do is to put a rivet at each
'intersection' of rib and spar, adjust the spacing to the next rivet, and
then use the standard spacing for the resr.
> Also, are those 37 dollar rivet spacing tools worth the money?
Yes, but if you want to spend the time you can do even better. Make
several templates, each from a strip of aluminum. Each strip should be
about 3 feet long. Drill a line of l=pilot holes in one strip that are 1
inch aprt. In the next one make the pilot holes 1-1/2 inches apart, etc.
The resulting templates are actually easier to use than a standard rivet
spacing tool.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
Working on the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Fwd: Rivet Spacing |
Yes, buy a fan spacing tool they ARE worth the $$$. Put the holes over a
ruler and get the 1 1/4 inch spacing. Than lay the tool on the
spar/rib/flange to be marked. Adjust the tool for even spacing. You can
drill through it but it does tend to hog-out the alignment holes after
several thousand holes.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
---------------------
From: apple.com!hovan(at)matronics.com (John Hovan)
Date: 95-09-14 14:19:32 EDT
Hi All,
There aren't many instructions on rivet spacing strategies for the
horizontal stabilizer skins. Did anyone find a strategy that seemed to
work well? I was thinking of marking the location of the rivet on the rear
spar flange and measuring up 1 and 1/4 inch on the ribs all the way to the
leading edge and adjusting the spacing where neccessary.
Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically
pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar
rivet spacing tools worth the money?
thanks,
John
(Cable TV installed in garage. Nothing like watching Monday night football
while building an airplane!)
ps. Frank Justice's latest manual addition document (Removing the Fuselage
from the Jig) has been published to my web page. Feel free to dowload.
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacer |
iChris Ruble writes:
> The "rivet fan" is a must have tool. Don't drill holes without it.
>
> Chris
>
I assume that the fan is only for marking, not for a drill guide??
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com> |
Randy Writes:
>
> I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that
> I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the
> future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8?
>
>
> - Randy (RV-6 tail)
>
>
Randy,
You might as well hang up the -6A tail feathers as decoration because
the -8 uses different parts. Better yet, build a -6A and a -8, Teach your wife
to fly formation and..... (yeah, dream on..) |-)
Mike Graves
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
Hello RV List. Do we have a problem with the server?
Testing 1,2,3...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: extra fuel tank |
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
> What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
> would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
> hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
> fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
> gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
>
> Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
> of it?
Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to
sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource
management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an
extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left.
Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be
applied to A/C.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re: extra fuel tank |
Text item:
I am working on the RV3 prototype due to a forced landing several years
ago. Left it in a real mess and am trying to get it back together for
the Oshkosh Museum. Reason for crash!!....ran out of fuel!. Yes, it
can happen to RVers too.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: extra fuel tank
Date: 9/14/95 3:36 PM
Question:
What have people done as far as extra fuel tanks on rv's?
I don't see a big need for this as I suspect fuel won't be a
limiting factor for most. I might be interested in just a couple
more gallons due to my personal RV mission.
Also, since most aviation accidents are fuel starvation (I know,
it wouldn't happen to anyone on the rv list though), what about
something like a reserve tank.
On motorcyles I've owned, I loved the reserve tank. I never
worried about gas. If I ever ran it out, I just switched to
reserve and headed for a gas station. For non-cyclists, the
implementation was actually one tank with two pick-ups, one
shorter than the other. When the fuel dropped below the level
of the taller (main tank) pickup, the rider could switch to
the shorter (pseudo reserve tank) pickup, and get the last 20%
or so out of the tank. The nice thing about that was it was
absolutely accurate, unlike a fuel gauge. At that point I
knew exactly how much fuel I had left!
What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
of it?
Don
PS Credit to my friend Wayne for helping me with the idea.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 15:36:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: extra fuel tank
From: dg-rtp.dg.com!karl(at)matronics.com (Donald Karl)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
I haven't started yet, so I don't have any first hand experience,
but I was guessing that the marked elastic rivet spacing tool
would be easier than one of the $37(?) fans. Fitting contours
and not scratching seem to be nice. I'd think that ease of use
would be simple enough with elastic or the fan that it just
wouldn't be an issue. Of couse cost is almost nothing.
Anybody with a fan type rivet spacer try the elastic yet? I'd
like feedback.
I wish I knew who to credit on the elastic, but I can't remember
his name.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacer |
>
>
> I assume that the fan is only for marking, not for a drill guide??
>
>
>
You are correct sir. I did toy with the idea of attaching drill
bushings to it but the price of the bushings was a little to much.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Subject: | extra fuel tank (fwd) |
I had thought about this quite a bit but did not implement it.
I have also used motorcycles and also had a VW once and they
had the reserver fuel valve.
My thinking on RV's would be to have a small tank (2 or 3 gal)
up high behind the firewall (between the Instrument pannel and
the firewall). On the RV4, there is some room there if you don't
use the optional baggage tray.
With it up high, if you had a failure of the fuel pump(s) and
or ran out of fuel you could turn this on and have a known quantity
which should allow you a known amount of time (20 min) to get
down safely somewhere. I don't know how to fill it exactly.
You could use a seperate pump or bleed fuel off of the other pump
to fill it. Typically, you would leave it full all the time and
just recycle it every 6 mo. or so to keep it fresh.
You may have to make a custom sized tank to fit.
The only down side is some people do not like any fuel in the fuselage.
There is also the complexity factory. I think a small tank properly
located would not be a safety problem.
If you ever have a forced landing, the leading edge fuel tanks are
the worst possible design anyway, esp. on a low wing plane.
Hit anything like a post or tree and that fuel will be sprayed everywhere.
I would prefer to see Van's come up with a welded Al. tank that goes
BEHIND the spar, like on Cessna's for example. It may have to be
moved outboard some where you don't need as many structural ribs.
They could use the 'D' or hat section type ribs like on the Luscombe
or the GlasStar in the tank area. This would improve the safety and
we would not have to mess with making the tanks and proseal.
Herman.
>
> Question:
>
> What have people done as far as extra fuel tanks on rv's?
>
> I don't see a big need for this as I suspect fuel won't be a
> limiting factor for most. I might be interested in just a couple
> more gallons due to my personal RV mission.
>
> Also, since most aviation accidents are fuel starvation (I know,
> it wouldn't happen to anyone on the rv list though), what about
> something like a reserve tank.
>
> On motorcyles I've owned, I loved the reserve tank. I never
> worried about gas. If I ever ran it out, I just switched to
> reserve and headed for a gas station. For non-cyclists, the
> implementation was actually one tank with two pick-ups, one
> shorter than the other. When the fuel dropped below the level
> of the taller (main tank) pickup, the rider could switch to
> the shorter (pseudo reserve tank) pickup, and get the last 20%
> or so out of the tank. The nice thing about that was it was
> absolutely accurate, unlike a fuel gauge. At that point I
> knew exactly how much fuel I had left!
>
> What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
> would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
> hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
> fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
> gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
>
> Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
> of it?
>
> Don
>
>
> PS Credit to my friend Wayne for helping me with the idea.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
RU>I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that
RU>I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the
RU>future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8?
RU> - Randy (RV-6 tail)
Hi Randy,
I seem to remember some postings saying the RV-8 *DID* have RV-6 tail
feathers. So you may have already started on your -8, while the rest of
us await the kit .
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: extra fuel tank |
>
> Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to
> sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource
> management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an
> extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left.
>
> Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be
> applied to A/C.
>
I agree with this one. I can't tell you how many times I ended up
pushing a motorcycle because the reserve. I have run a tank dry in the
air, and it's no big deal if you are at altitude. It's a good way to make
sure you have ised the last fuel in the tank. It wakes up dozing
passengers too.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | Re[2]: extra fuel tank |
Text item:
Sounds like you guys missed the message. Aircraft fuel management is different
than motorcycle fuel management. Reserve does not necessarily mean emergency.
Having reserve fuel is simply another resource to manage (however one chooses).
An intelligent pilot would probably know when to use the reserve resource.
jmw -4
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
> What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
> would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
> hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
> fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
> gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
>
> Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
> of it?
Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to
sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource
management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an
extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left.
Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be
applied to A/C.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank
From: "A. Reichert" <clark.net!reichera(at)matronics.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:56:23 -0400 (EDT)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Michael Hulse <mikeh(at)zipper.netcom.com> |
Subject: | MORE tool opinions |
Hi, All...
I can't resist the tool chatter going on. I am almost finished with the tail
feathers and here's what my opinions are:
1. For me, the rivet spacing tool that I purchased from Van's isn't straight
enough to be used by itself. You still need to draw a center line, mark the
distances, then drill on the line closest to the spacer mark.
2. Cheap rivet squeezers aren't worth it. I purchased a "SALE" model from
US Industrial. It's in good shape, but doesn't cut the mustard as far as
adaptability (yokes) and 1/8" rivets (pain). (Anyone want to purchase a
rivet squeezer?) I will be getting another one soon.
3. Rivet guns: I purchased a rebuilt Chicago Pnuematic. I'm very happy
with it, but I'm not experienced enough to know better.
4. Hole cutters from Avery: I got the big one for the wings, hoping to
use it for the stabilizer ribs as well, but I found that I needed the
small one because the big cutter wouldn't adjust small enough for the
holes in the stabilizer ribs. Get them both if the budget allows.
5. Band Saw: NECESSARY. I learned that the "f" word (fabricate) is fun and not
painful with the proper tools. I have an inexpensive DELTA and it works fine.
I didn't have it at first... what a mess.
6. My favorite toy ... OK, here's where the sparks often fly. The swivel flush
rivet set from Avery. No smiles -- no problem. I've talked to some "veteran"
riveters that say you don't need them, but I'm not that good without it.
7. Vendors: Avery is GREAT.
These are just some opinions from my experiences so far. I hope they help
someone.
Mike Hulse
RV6(A) Feathers almost done. Wings coming soon.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Fan Rivet Spacer |
When using the rivet spacing tool, I've found that although it does an
excellent job of maintaining precise spacing it does a poor job of
maintaining straight alignment. It tends to open up into an arc. I draw a
straight line with a straight edge and then use the spacer for proper
spacing.
Bottom line: the spacer will not provide a perfectly straight line.
Why doesn't someone sell a roll of masking tape 1/4" wide with 1 1/4" and 1
1/2" rivet holes drawn on the show side of the tape for use in laying out a
line of rivets?
Chet Razer still waiting impatiently for wing kit.
P.S. I wouldn't recommend using the spacing tool as a drill guide.
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Vertical Card compass |
I have been planning to install a VCC. Does anyone have a fool proof
installation in order to avoid the problems we've been reading about or must
installations be trial and error?
chet razer in sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Birmingham AL RVers |
I am planning a business trip to Birmingham Al. during the last week of
September. I would appreciate the opportunity to visit any ongoing or
finished projects in the area. Please e-mail direct to:
CRazer2(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: extra fuel tank (fwd) |
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com wrote:
> My thinking on RV's would be to have a small tank (2 or 3 gal)
> up high behind the firewall (between the Instrument pannel and
> the firewall). On the RV4, there is some room there if you don't
> use the optional baggage tray.
> With it up high, if you had a failure of the fuel pump(s) and
> or ran out of fuel you could turn this on and have a known quantity
> which should allow you a known amount of time (20 min) to get
> down safely somewhere. I don't know how to fill it exactly.
> You could use a seperate pump or bleed fuel off of the other pump
> to fill it. Typically, you would leave it full all the time and
> just recycle it every 6 mo. or so to keep it fresh.
If memory serves, I think the KR or Dragonfly uses something similar.
They set up what they call a "header" tank in the panel area on the right
side. The fuel normally flows through this tank in operations. Some
type of sight glass is used so the pilot can see the fuel level in the tank.
If a fuel pump failed, the pilot could see how much fule is left in the
header.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took
you other builders to complete yours??
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
In Ron Wantajja's Kitplane Construction - pp255-256 is a nice discussion
on rivet spacing and hole drilling. There is reference to the 'elastic'
rivet spacer where the user have marked off intervals of 1/2-inch. It
seems like a nice idea but I went with the $37 pantographic gadget. It
should be a must-have item in any builder's toolbox (opinion).
Regarding the rivet layout on the HS rear spar. I was tipped off early
on by another builder to be careful with the distance along the rear
spar... apparently the existing rivets used to secure the flange strips
tend to get in the way of the riveting of the skin onto the spar. The
spar flange, as you know, is only about 5/8 or so inches wide--leaving
little margin for error and lots of room for frustration when faced with
an object (another rivet head) blocking your squeezer jaw's compression.
Either offset the holes or allow for clearance, but you gotta do something.
Good luck.
Remi
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
I started out using the fan spacing tool, like all the others, I found it
left a rivet line less than straight, could accidentally change spacing
if you didn't watch it carefully, and could scratch the skin. Saw a
blurb in the RVator about the strips of plastic or aluminum with holes
for spacing, tried it, and have never gone back. With this experience, I
would not buy one now, but would go directly to the templates. I made one
with 1 inch spacing, colored every hole with a red pilot pen (naturally)
for 2 inch spacing and made another with different spacing and different
colors, so I get double duty from most templates. They bend easily to
fit contours. I don't know if I would trust the elastic, it probably
works fine, but I know that I would go back and measure spacing to make
sure. Hey, what can I say! If you really must have a fan spacing tool,
let me know, I don't use mine at all any more! I'll make a deal for you!
Jeff
Ft. Collins, Co.
RV-4 - wings...
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
________________________________________________________________________________
Dan
RV-6 Plans
23101
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: extra fuel tank |
Before we get too carried away. Sounds like I might have misled
a few with my intentions (my apologies):
In NO WAY did I mean to suggest a third fuel tank relieves a pilot from
proper fuel management. In NO WAY did I mean to advocate running
a tank dry in the air. I also did not mean to suggest that
motorcycles can fly or flies can ride motorcycles.
I brought this idea up as I'm surprised that more isn't being
done to stop the leading cause of aviation accidents. So much
money, effort, and sometimes weight is spent to improve safety
relating to incidents which are far less common. Besides
that, range improvement can be an added side affect for someone
(such as myself) who may want it.
I agree that an "intelligent pilot" SHOULD never get into the
situation of relying on a backup fuel system, but I've just seen
to many strange things in my life to believe that I'm invincible
(wee kan argu abowt mie smarts off lyne).
Don (RV6A soon)
PS Monte. I would greatly appreciate information and/or drawings
from your friend.
>Sounds like you guys missed the message. Aircraft fuel management is different
>than motorcycle fuel management. Reserve does not necessarily mean emergency.
>Having reserve fuel is simply another resource to manage (however one chooses).
>An intelligent pilot would probably know when to use the reserve resource.
>
>
>> What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
>> would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
>> hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
>> fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
>> gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
>>
>> Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
>> of it?
>
>Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to
>sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource
>management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an
>extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left.
>
>Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be
>applied to A/C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Need More Fuel In Your RV? |
There's always someone who wants to take a simple idea and make it
complicated.....
Here's the EASY was to add extra fuel to your RV. When you build your tanks,
order some extra tank ribs, one left and one right. Replace the inboard wing
ribs with tank ribs and make your tanks one bay bigger. You will have to find
a larger tank skin but I think there is somebody out there that has one.
Maybe it was Van's? Does anyone know? I wouldn't go beyond one extra bay
because this will create a structual problem on the outboard sections of the
wings. However, if you build you own spars you can reinforce this aera for
extra strength.
Anyway, as far as reserve tanks go...you already have one. Since each wing
has its own tank its easy to know how much fuel you have with a little simple
fuel management. Either change tanks each half hour (remember which one you
started with) or run one dry and then run off the other (reserve?).
I don't know, maybe this is to easy for some.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com> |
Hello all,
I'm Steve Mayer, considering an RV-4, and here via an invitation from John
Walsh. I hope to make a decision soon, but I've been dancing around this one
for a year or two. John invited me to a builder's meeting at Cheryl Sanchez'
house a few weeks ago, and I got a look at something other than a finished RV's
that I'd seen at EAA fly-in's and the builder's forum at Willamantic CT two
years ago. She and the others (sorry folks, I'm terrible with names!) were very
nice, and I came away with plenty of helpful hints for when I get started. I'm
sure I missed more than I got though!
My Address is: Stephen Mayer
5 Millbury Blvd.
Oxford, Ma. 01540
Phone: 508-987-1713 (h)
internet: 72652.670(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
Van said at Oshkosh, the tail will use thicker skins (.016 --> .020) with a
RV-6 "type" tail for the RV-8. This thicker skin had been available (by
special request) on the RV-6.
Will the final design be exactly the same ???
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
At the request of Matt Dralle I'm introding myself to the RV list. My name is
Jay Jenkins and I'm an airline attorney (don't hold that against me and try
to restain yourself from cluttering up the rv-list with attorney jokes). In
my position with the airline I do a lot of aircraft buying, selling and
financing work. I own a Citabria 7KCAB, but dream about the day when that
plane will be joined by an RV. I am just starting my research into building
an RV (probably a -4, but the -8 looks very nice) and thought I could gain
great insight by reading the messages on the rv-list. If anyone needs advice
on the documents for buying or selling an aircraft or related equipment, I
can help, but I won't have much to say about RV construction. You can e-mail
me at jaythe(at)aol.com.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | Re[2]: extra fuel tank |
Alan is correct! I HAD a friend who landed short in his RV-4 because his engine
quit due to no fuel in one tank. (There was plenty of fuel in the other tank.)
He spent over a year rebuilding his -4 to get it back into the air. When he
did, he still had fuel problems. His fuel system set up was NOT per VAN's
plans. When his engine quit the next time, he was departing the runway and was
at low altitude...... This set up a fatal crash which destroyed the aircraft.
We are all human and subject to errors. I suggest that we all ask ourselves
what if this fails before making any changes. Could this failure cost me my
life? If the answer is yes, what can be done to prevent this from happening?
I do not believe that we should stay home on the ground! More systems only make
for the greater risk of mismanagement
These are my opinions and are not intended to belittle anyone.
Gary A. Sobek
RV-6 20480 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank
Date: 9/14/95 3:55 PM
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
> What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind
> would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would
> hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that
> fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43
> gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system.
>
> Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives
> of it?
Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to
sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource
management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an
extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left.
Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be
applied to A/C.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Ray Belbin" <rv6a(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | Re: Extra Fuel Tanks |
I'm aware of a number of additional fuel tanks installed in RVs here in
Australia. The long distances and widely dispersed fuel stations in North and
Western Australia make this idea attractive.
More than 1 RV4 here has
installed an auxilary tank near the firewall (not sure which side). Of course
John Johansen (Cosmopoliton RV4er) had a forward tank as one of his
auxilaries. He also had fuel stored in the wing-tips, as well as the rear
seat.
A friend of mine built a largish (about 20 gals) tank fitting
between the firewall and instrument panel in his RV6. He feels that it may
have been better to install tip tanks. He spoke with Van about it, and
believes that IF Van were to do it, he'd probably put the extra fuel in tip
tanks instead. I said IF.
I flew in this RV6 fully fuelled last year.
Ray
Belbin
Townsville
AUSTRALIA
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
One could try measuring the distance between the first and last rivets in a
row, dividing by the maximum spacing called for in the drawings, e.g., 1.25
in., determining the minimal number of intervals implied by that, dividing
that number into the measured distance, and using a hand calculator and
decimal scale for the layout. Although somewhat more tedious, perhaps,
this method is precise and has none of the disadvantages of other methods.
All the trouble derives from the fact that we Americans work in inches and
fractions and the fractions often don't fit the pathology of the problem,
which is why we invented the rivet fan in the first place. The decimal
system always works. One could move to the metric system, of course, but
the plans are done in inches and fractions.
Another approach is to avoid being so anal about it and just lay out the
pattern at 1.25 in., changing the spacing to add an extra rivet, if
needed, near the end of the row.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Fwd: Rivet Spacing |
---------------------
Subj: Re: Rivet Spacing
Date: 95-09-15 12:00:59 EDT
From: CAP10ZOOM
Hi Folks...
Just to let you know... the RV-8 (along with the SR-20 Cirrus) is on the
cover of the November 1995 issue of US Aviator. Just for those of you starved
for more RV-8 photos.... (grin).
Jim Campbell
US Aviator magazine
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
Subject: | Emp. Time to build |
My building log shows that it took me 202.75 hours to build the emp. I
am sure I missed logging some time but not more than 10-15.
Ross Mickey
Drilling longerons to firewall 6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took
> you other builders to complete yours??
>
I spent 270 Hrs. on the Emp. This included several mistakes. For
instance, I built two trim tabs. I didn't like the first one so I started
over. The second one was much better and took less time. You will find
that there is a BIG learning curve in the first 100 Hrs. or so. Your
first work will not reflect the time it takes to complete tasks later in
the project.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | re:Tank Sealing Process |
>Gil Alexander asked,
> Isn't there a danger of gluing in the clecos permanently into the
>rivet holes? It would slow the plane down as well as looking tacky :^)
>
> Did you have to do anything special to make sure this doesn't happen??
>It does sound like an easier approach.
I guess I have been reading to much, and not adding my two cents enough.
The sealer (ProSeal or PRC) is a two part rubber compound that is very soft
when cured. The cleco's can be removed from the rivet hole almost as if the
rubber compound wasn't there. An added benefit is that the rubber that sticks
to the cleco can provide a no-mar surface. Or, since the rubber can be peeled
off of the cleco with ease, you'll understand the need to provide a clean
surface on the tank ribs and skins for the rubber to seal against.
________________________________________________________________________________
loads well but fail easily in shear (twist the cleco to break the bond), while
hard materials (like Epoxy) handle shear loads very well, but fail to impact
loads.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 140 mph ias 650 fpm without supercharger engaged
1000+ fpm with supercharger engaged
(with O-290-G at 140 mph ias 800 fpm climb rate)
A 200 Hp Pitts pilot thinks he can outclimb me (3500 fpm) but his top speed is
160 mph. Since I should have 500-600 fpm left at 160 mph, an RV-3 can still
win.
My new tach goes in this weekend so I can start to get good numbers.
I can't wait to get the exhaust pipes changed, and reduce the air inlet opening.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Need More Fuel In Your RV? |
I wouldn't go beyond one extra bay
> because this will create a structual problem on the outboard sections of the
> wings. However, if you build you own spars you can reinforce this aera for
> extra strength.
>
Messing with the spar is not a good idea. Makeing the spar stronger
in one area will make that section more stiff, transfering sterss to another
area that was not designed to handle that load. Adding material to a
stressed member can actually make it weaker by concentrating loads. The spar
is designed to flex. If you reduce flex in one area, you will increase the
stress on eather side of the strenghtend section. This can cause failure of
the over-stressed section at a lighter load.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Subject: | Need More Fuel In Your RV? (fwd) |
Nice to see you are such an expert on fuel mgt.
Clearly, your proposal has problems also.
Just getting the longer tank skin is a problem to start with.
Running a tank dry and then switching to the other has its own problems.
For example, what if the valve handle brakes off in your hand? Not impossible
as I have seen some valves get very hard to turn.
What if the pickup tube is plugged in the other tank or the vent is pluged
to the other tank? These have all happened before.
What if you picked up a load of bad fuel and it plugged the fuel strainer?
What if the fuel pump fails in such a way not allow any fuel to go to
the engine. This has happened also. In fact, articles have been written
on bypass valves so that your elect. pump can feed the carb if the engine
pump fails in such a way as to restrict the fuel flow.
The idea behind the header tank is to have a seperate fuel tank with its
own vent and supply line. It only needs gravity to feed.
It can be plumbed in between the carb and fuel pump if you like or as
another option.
With a header tank, you know exactly how much fuel you have if you switch
to it. You can not say that about the wing tanks, esp. at low fuel levels.
Herman
>
> There's always someone who wants to take a simple idea and make it
> complicated.....
>
> Here's the EASY was to add extra fuel to your RV. When you build your tanks,
> order some extra tank ribs, one left and one right. Replace the inboard wing
> ribs with tank ribs and make your tanks one bay bigger. You will have to find
> a larger tank skin but I think there is somebody out there that has one.
> Maybe it was Van's? Does anyone know? I wouldn't go beyond one extra bay
> because this will create a structual problem on the outboard sections of the
> wings. However, if you build you own spars you can reinforce this aera for
> extra strength.
>
> Anyway, as far as reserve tanks go...you already have one. Since each wing
> has its own tank its easy to know how much fuel you have with a little simple
> fuel management. Either change tanks each half hour (remember which one you
> started with) or run one dry and then run off the other (reserve?).
>
> I don't know, maybe this is to easy for some.
>
> Gary Corde
> RV-6 N211GC
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
As I remember it was a little over 500 hours.
don mack
rv-6a
>Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took
>you other builders to complete yours??
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank) |
On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
> I brought this idea up as I'm surprised that more isn't being
> done to stop the leading cause of aviation accidents. So much
> money, effort, and sometimes weight is spent to improve safety
> relating to incidents which are far less common. Besides
> that, range improvement can be an added side affect for someone
> (such as myself) who may want it.
> Don (RV6A soon)
I agree. In the planes I fly, I find that the fuel gauges are very
inaccurate and I have yet to fly in a GA plane where the clock worked.
For something as important as fuel, I don't understand why we do not have
very accurate fuel gauges and fuel monitoring sytems. Our current fuel
management systems are no more sosphiticated than on my 1977 motorcycle. I
used the mileage driven and knew at 200 miles I was out of gas (fuel
gauge was broken, and reserve tank saved me from running out of fuel many
times). We seem to go to extrodinary measures to
clean, aloydyne, etch, prime and paint every inch of our airplanes and
then we put one $15 fuel gauge and switch on the gauge to use it for both
tanks!
I don't mean to critize anyone out there, but this is the first time I've
seen fuel managament as a topic on this list. If fuel management is so
simple, then why is it one of the leading causes of accidents. No one I
know would spend 3-5 years building an RV and then make a simple mistake
of running out of gas, and destroying or damaging their RV, but RVers do run
out of gas because there I beleive, a human factors problem with fuel
management. I would like to hear of some good idea's on how to improve the
accruacy of the fuel gauges and how to improve the fuel management in an RV.
I think this is more important that what type of canopy or how many wheels
an RV should have.
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Donald Bohman <dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us> |
i have not been receiving any messages from the builders list now for
approx 3 weeks.
there seems to be an error in the path from the list to me. the path is
indicating "dbohman(at)matronics.com", but should be to
dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us please unsubscribe me from the list and
then resubscribe me again so we can correct the path. thank you.
dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | FW: Sizes and other (RV-6) |
----------
From: Dick McNaney
Subject: Sizes and other (RV-6)
Date: Thursday, September 14, 1995 11:12AM
I have a question for those who have picked their kits up at Vans.
When one picks up a kit I understand that it is not packaged. Will a tail
kit fit in the back end of a Cherokee (Jeep)? I suspect it will, nicely.
How about the back end of a early Mooney? The baggage area and back seat
area is quite large but the baggage door is pretty puny so it would probably
have to go in the regular door. Can one land a Mooney at Vans? I think Van
has a Bonanza but I don't know if he flies it home.
Thanks for your help,
Dick McNaney - just planning ahead
PS I just dug out my Grumman Tiger Owner's manual (I have the manual, not
the Tiger). The Tiger has the O360 A4K with Slick mags and a starter
button. The left mag has the "shower of sparks" thing. The manual says to
start on "both" mags and thats what I did successfully for two years.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
I have been reading the chatter on extra fuel tanks and thought I might
share my thoughts. I had a 1979 172N with long-range fuel tanks and a
baggage compartment
reserve tank of 18 gallons. This gave me about seven hours of fuel on
board. This was only practical to use when I was going non-stop from NE PA
to somewhere near Chicago.
I found on long trips that the extra weight was not worth it and I need to
stretch my
legs about every three hours. The thought of running a tank dry before
switching is rediculous. When I fly Pipers, I switch fuel tanks about every
hour to keep the plane
balanced. Just because you can run every drop of fuel from your tank,
doesn't mean you
should. As someone has already said, many things can happen when you switch
tanks, so
I preffer my engine running well with a way out when I switch. And lets not
forget that the REGs say 30 minutes of reserve for day time VFR minimum.
Fuel gauges are very inaccurate, calcualte on the high end of your fuel burn
and you should never run out of fuel. The reserve tank is fine as long as
you understand it is to extend your range, not to get you out of trouble.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
Subject: | verdict:Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
Well, the verdict is in. I WILL be starting my engine with the LEFT mag only.
Many thanks for all the replies.
It is interesting how the rotary switch has OFF-RIGHT-LEFT-BOTH I guess that's
so you can go straight to both once the engine starts!
Damn clever eh
Ken
RV6a (maybe next spring now that fall is here...;-(
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
Subject: | NOTAM: VAN'S Webpage Downtime (Chatter) |
Be advised that EARTHLINK.NET will be 'down' for system overhaul this Sunday
17Sept95 for an undetermined period. The information I received from the
SysAdm is their plan to be offline for the 'morning' (Pacific Time).
This is an apparent attempt to linkup a T4 connection and to revamp the
news, mail, and www servers. (Hopefully they will now allow for direct
access to their /cgi-bin directory.) Sorry for any inconveniences...
I realize this matter should be announced by Jeremy Benedict, the
WebMaster, but being on a weekend and under short notice, I took the
liberty and apologize for my involvement in the affairs of Van's WWW
Homepage. Please try to understand...
Respectfully submitted,
Remi D. Khu
rkhu(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Subject: | Lots Of Information |
I am new to the RV Group and to the Internet. I just discovered and
made good use of something that other new members might not know about
yet.
There is a great deal of supplementary info on building, selecting
tools, etc. for the RVs on the World Wide Web.
To get to it, web to
http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/
then select
Personal Pages
then select
John Hovan
There is some general stuff at the top of his page, but if you scroll
down several screens, there are a number of files on selecting tools,
cutting aluminum, building various parts of the plane (empennage, wing,
fuselage) and a lot of info very worth considering.
The file server might lock up from time to time and "Reset" you, but I
was persistent and got all the info I wanted (which was virtually all
that was there -- about 35 files).
Hope this helps.
Bill Costello
RV-6 at the empannage
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | NRGS80A(at)prodigy.com (MR DANIEL R URBANSKI) |
-- [ From: Daniel R. Urbanski * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --
I sent 2 e-mail messages and neither one was posted. Am I doing
something wrong. If you get this please reply.
Regards,
Daniel RV6a #24400
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | russ(at)maui.net (Russ Werner) |
Subject: | New guy on the list |
New to the list and no progress to report. Still getting the knowledge and
info together to get started on something. The something may end up as an
RV4 or RV8.
I'm located on Maui, so if I get this thing going, you'll all have a good
excuse to visit (read: help)! In the mean time, I fly for Northwest out of HNL.
Aloha,
Russ
Another activity/project: Maui Windsurf Report (check it out!)
http://maui.net/~mauiwind/MWR/mwr.html
________________________________________________________________________________
Donald Karl
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank) |
After all this talk about fuel tanks and fuel management I thought I'd add
my three cents worth.
I tried a fuel gauge that used a float sensor. One side worked after the
fuel level dropped below 1/3; the other side didn't work even after two
tries to fix the sensor.
I tried a capacitance sensor system. One side never worked. The other side
worked after I was below 1/2 tank.
I flew to Oshkosh (well, almost to Oshkosh) on the top 20 gallons in my
tanks. I never added more than 18 gallons to my tanks at fuel stops.
Even a dummy can learn. I talked to Bob from DPS Instruments. Since I work
in the meter department of our local utility I am somewhat aware of how
digital sensors work. I had been thinking of using a fuel flow sensor and
one of our meter registers programmed to accurately measure fuel flow.
Possible, but not really practical.
Bob told me he had already developed a fuel flow system monitor that could
not only tell me how much fuel I had used but could also tell me the rate I
was using it.
That sounded pretty damn good to me; why reinvent the wheel. I ended up
buying two gauges from him. I already had the fuel flow sensors; remember,
I had intended making my own gauges. After installing the system I flew
N16JA for a while. I found that the fuel gauges were accurate within 1/10
of a gallon. I, in essence, bought two of his gauges. They are much
cheaper than any other brand but are still about $450 per gauge. If I were
doing it all over again I would buy one gauge and use low fuel level floats
in each tank. That way I would know the total fuel on board and as soon as
a 'low fuel' light activated for a tank I would know which tank held how
much fuel.
If you order a gauge from Bob and tell him you're a member of the Puget
Sound RVators he'll give you a $50.00 discount. Of course, if you do this I
expect you to send us a check for a years membership. It'll only cost you
$9.00 and you will get a wonderful newsletter every two months.
>On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
>> I brought this idea up as I'm surprised that more isn't being
>> done to stop the leading cause of aviation accidents. So much
>> money, effort, and sometimes weight is spent to improve safety
>> relating to incidents which are far less common. Besides
>> that, range improvement can be an added side affect for someone
>> (such as myself) who may want it.
>> Don (RV6A soon)
>
>I agree. In the planes I fly, I find that the fuel gauges are very
>inaccurate and I have yet to fly in a GA plane where the clock worked.
>For something as important as fuel, I don't understand why we do not have
>very accurate fuel gauges and fuel monitoring sytems. Our current fuel
>management systems are no more sosphiticated than on my 1977 motorcycle. I
>used the mileage driven and knew at 200 miles I was out of gas (fuel
>gauge was broken, and reserve tank saved me from running out of fuel many
>times). We seem to go to extrodinary measures to
>clean, aloydyne, etch, prime and paint every inch of our airplanes and
>then we put one $15 fuel gauge and switch on the gauge to use it for both
>tanks!
>
>I don't mean to critize anyone out there, but this is the first time I've
>seen fuel managament as a topic on this list. If fuel management is so
>simple, then why is it one of the leading causes of accidents. No one I
>know would spend 3-5 years building an RV and then make a simple mistake
>of running out of gas, and destroying or damaging their RV, but RVers do run
>out of gas because there I beleive, a human factors problem with fuel
>management. I would like to hear of some good idea's on how to improve the
>accruacy of the fuel gauges and how to improve the fuel management in an RV.
>I think this is more important that what type of canopy or how many wheels
>an RV should have.
>
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
>
>
>>
>
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
PR>I sent 2 e-mail messages and neither one was posted. Am I doing
PR>something wrong. If you get this please reply.
PR>Daniel RV6a #24400
Got it! Make sure your software is set to "read own messages" if you
have that option available.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
After I check my records, turns out it was only 301 hours. How time flys when your
having fun.
Also, I have written a simple builders log program in MS Access. If anyone has
an
interest in it, let me know and I'll send you a copy.
>As I remember it was a little over 500 hours.
>
>don mack
>rv-6a
>
>>Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took
>>you other builders to complete yours??
>>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
Donald Karl ,
rv list , abell(at)rand.org
Subject: | Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank) |
<199509170635.XAA22256(at)seanet.com>
From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
Hi John,
I'm building an RV-6A, still working on the empennage. I've thought some
about my future fuel system, in which I had intended to include the Vision
Micro VM1000 system that is said to provide both digital and analog fuel
quantity displays along with low fuel remaining alert, although I confess
to having no experience with it. I think fuel management is among a
pilot's most important functions. Fuel starvation probably accounts for
about 95 percent of engine power losses. I was very interested in your
story. I'd like to talk to your friend, Bob, at DPS Instruments. Do you
have a phone number for him?
I like your idea of a single fuel quantity gauge and low-level warning
lights for the two tanks, but two gauges would be fine, too. Actually, the
VM1000 is said to provide both digital and analog fuel quantity displays
along with low fuel remaining alert. I wonder if it's too sophisticated to
be reliable.
Thanks for your posting, and thanks for your help contacting DPS.
Jack Abell (Hopefully, another N...JA aircraft one of these days)
p.s. Ammeter in the meter department? Yeah, right, of course.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Sable Technology, Inc." <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
You asked for a post re my RV interest...
I began the RV-6 project right after OSH in 1993. I worked until Jan 94 =
on the emp. and finished it (except for the faring on the bottom of the =
rudder). It took about 280 hours to get to that point. I've sweated =
the fiberglass tips but lucked out when a Glassair builder and I moved =
into the same hangar. Unfortunately for the project it was about that =
time that I quit my job and started a new business - so the project got =
put on hold. I am just now getting started again. I have the wings on =
order and have the hangar re-tooled. =20
The RV was initially going to be a x-country IFR airplane but in the =
past few months my company purchased a Tiger (then sold it and purchased =
a Bonanza). The plan now is to make it a light weight fun machine. I =
do, however, wake up in a new world every day so there's no telling what =
it will be when I finish (in 2005?) =20
The project is in Northwest Arkansas. I'm sorry to say that we are the =
state with the fewest RV projects underway, but there is an RV-6A begin =
built down the highway a few miles and its builder and I share a lot of =
information. He's a great guy who is also rebuilding a Whitman Tailwind =
and a Kitfox. =20
Glad to see a spot on the net for RV lovers. I'm always looking for =
people who are building and travel frequently to Oklahoma, Kentucky, =
Iowa, and will consider going anywhere within 500 miles for the weekend. =
We'll be happy to host anyone coming through NW Ark.
________________________________________________________________________________
ammeterj.seanet.com!ammeterj(at)matronics.com (John Ammeter)
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank) |
Donald Karl ,
rv list , abell(at)rand.org
>
>Hi John,
>
>I'm building an RV-6A, still working on the empennage. I've thought some
>about my future fuel system, in which I had intended to include the Vision
>Micro VM1000 system that is said to provide both digital and analog fuel
>quantity displays along with low fuel remaining alert, although I confess
>to having no experience with it. I think fuel management is among a
>pilot's most important functions. Fuel starvation probably accounts for
>about 95 percent of engine power losses. I was very interested in your
>story. I'd like to talk to your friend, Bob, at DPS Instruments. Do you
>have a phone number for him?
>
>I like your idea of a single fuel quantity gauge and low-level warning
>lights for the two tanks, but two gauges would be fine, too. Actually, the
>VM1000 is said to provide both digital and analog fuel quantity displays
>along with low fuel remaining alert. I wonder if it's too sophisticated to
>be reliable.
>
>Thanks for your posting, and thanks for your help contacting DPS.
>
>Jack Abell (Hopefully, another N...JA aircraft one of these days)
>
>p.s. Ammeter in the meter department? Yeah, right, of course.
>
DPS Instruments can be reached at 12475 Central, Suite 361, Chino CA 91710.
The phone number is 909-606-0403. Bob advertizes in Sport Aviation; I just
looked at the May '95 issue and he also carries some other products now.
Give him a call. He'll not only give you a good price but will also help
you in whatever way you may need. When he was first starting his company he
sold a fuel gauge to one of our RVators. The guy had some trouble
installing the gauge and Bob was ready and willing to fly up here to Seattle
to take care of it. How many companys are that interested in customer
service?? If you talk to Bob tell I said 'hi!'.
Any, ya, I am in the meter dept. Makes it real interesting when I answer
the phone 'meter, Ammeter'-------
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dougweil(at)pressenter.com (Doug Weiler) |
Fellow Listers:
Does anyone know the status of Jon Johanson's around-the-world RV flight? I
assume he has completed it by know, but I have heard nothing to confirm
this.
Doug
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com> |
Hi everyone. I just joined the list, so here's who I am:
Bryan Welch, technology researcher at AT&T Bell Labs,
currently finishing up a USUA training program and should
finish PPL requirements by December. I finished ground
school years ago, but I got distracted too much until now
moving around the country chasing jobs and education.
I'm hoping to start a kit in spring, and right now I'm
trying to help local builders, learn building, and pick
exactly what I'm going to build. So far I keep coming back
to an RV-6. Here's my general priorities:
1. Cross-country with one passenger - up to 900 mile trips
2. Leisure flying - something to wander the Rocky Mountains
3. Aerobatic capable
Anyway, I read the FAQ and a bunch of the old articles and
still have a few questions I hope someone can help me with.
What's a ball park price for a completed RV-6? The kit is
about 11K, but the engine seems to be the killer. I'm
hoping several people have completed RV-X kits and can give
me some rough numbers.
Has anyone used a auto engine, like one of the converted
Suburu engines, in an RV-X? The aerobatics might make
this difficult, but I don't know and wanted to ask.
thanks,
-Bryan
--
Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan@.dr.att.com - N0SFG
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | cn755(at)freenet.carleton.ca (Catherine Lamport) |
I am submitting this question on behalf of my husband who is busy
in the basement constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME (equilavant
to an A&P in the States), employed full time as a flight engineer
on a Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector in this area so
yes he is busy.
Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and
his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling
his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material
(cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where
the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents
in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present
in some wiping cloths.
Tanks A Lot!
Cathy and Dale Lamport
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
RV6A 23861
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
Jim,
Any plans in the near future to test fly the RV-8 and publish a "preliminary
review" in US Aviator ?? While I understand that Van is still doing test
flying, an early review by a independent test pilot would be interesting to
your readers. (well, one for sure)
Thanks for a great magazine,
Dick Slavens Napa, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
>Hi Folks...
>Just to let you know... the RV-8 (along with the SR-20 Cirrus) is on the
>cover of the November 1995 issue of US Aviator. Just for those of you
starved
>for more RV-8 photos.... (grin).
>Jim Campbell
>US Aviator magazine
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
Jay,
I think, ready to fly cost for a VFR model is going to be in the $30,000 -
$40,000 range.
The "old-timers" here might have a better handle on this.
You are right, the engine/prop combo is a big cost adder. The good news in
this area is that Superior Air Parts, is going to offer a complete O-360
"engine in a box", by next year. All new parts, including case, to be
assemblied by your local engine shop. Cost looks like 1/2 - 2/3 the normal
factory price. Will have to see how this compares to Van's discounted
engines.
Used engines to me are looking like a poorer bargin with each passing year.
With the increase in homebuilding activity the demand for used engines is
very high. But then again, being at the right place at the right time helps.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
Subject: | Re: Jon Johanson |
Hi All,
Jon arrived in OZ on about the 8th of Sept, I had dinner with him and
a number of other homebuilders last week here in Canberra, He was just
heading back home to Darwin from Melbourne. Jon had nothing but praise
for the hospitality provided those of you on this list and other
homebuilders in the US and England.
An interesting article appeared in our (SAAA) Sport Aviation Magazine
about his trip, If your interested I will find out what the copyright
is on it and send it to this list.
On behalf of Jon, Thanks!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Jon Johanson
AARNet_Gateway
Date: 9/17/95 8:01 PM
Fellow Listers:
Does anyone know the status of Jon Johanson's around-the-world RV flight? I
assume he has completed it by know, but I have heard nothing to confirm
this.
Doug
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Jon Johanson |
> Does anyone know the status of Jon Johanson's around-the-world RV flight? I
> assume he has completed it by know, but I have heard nothing to confirm
> this.
Yes - he has arrived back in Australia. Details are forthcoming on Van's
WWW page.
Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
Van's "WebManager"
http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Richard Welch" <rgwelch(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | RE: Ski's in an RV-6 (again) |
----------
From: aol.com!RV6junkie(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday,
September 13, 1995 1:56 PM
Subject: Ski's in an
RV-6 (again)
I think everybody is getting some bad advice regarding
puting skis in an RV.
My thoughts:
1. You CAN NOT run skis through the
lighting holes in the wings. How are you
going to get them into your
wings??? For those of you that have not attached
your wings to fuselage yet
be advised; if you don't run your push rods in the
wings before attaching
them to the fuselage first...you can not get 'em in.
With this in
mind...how will you ever get ski's in these very same holes???
2. If you
run the skis in the tail cone you will have an aft CG problem.
Think about
it...One pound at the tail has the effect on CG of about 100
pounds in the
baggage compartment (that's a guess). Not to mention that you
have your
bell crank and push rods back there. I wouldn't mess around trying
to make
the tail cone a baggage area.
3. External ski tubes may work fine on a 75
mph cub but I have to beleive
that they will have an adverse aerodynamic
effect on an RV at 180 mph.
Additionally, I don't know about you, but I
would hate to get to my
destination and fine two empty brackets where my
skis once were! Look-out
below.
I haven't taken any measurements, but if
you did not install the center
support (some people don't for leg room, but
they should because it's
structual) from the IP to the fuel selector, and
you have electric flaps, you
might be able to run the skis from the battery
box to the aft baggage
bulkhead. A pair of 180's are just short of 6' so
I'm sure they will fit
this way.
Maybe you might want to use shorter skis
when using the RV for transport.
Or, if you insist on skiing on boards that
are to long to fit into your RV,
maybe you should rent an aircraft that they
FIT INTO!
Before anybody starts to play with an aft CG, do yourself a
favor...call
Van's and get some "professional" help. They know better than
anybody else
where the end of the control envelope is.
Gary Corde
RV-6
N211GC
I saw an RV-6 yesterday that has a an aluminum cone running from the
bulkhead in back of the seats to the tail. The plane was at Auburn Municipal
Airport. The owner and plane are from Medford, OR. He said that with skis
in the back, he is within C.G. limits. The tube was on the right side and
his canopy tipped up forward.
R.G. Welch
________________________________________________________________________________
rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
>Hi everyone. I just joined the list, so here's who I am:
>Bryan Welch, technology researcher at AT&T Bell Labs,
>currently finishing up a USUA training program and should
>finish PPL requirements by December. I finished ground
>school years ago, but I got distracted too much until now
>moving around the country chasing jobs and education.
>
>I'm hoping to start a kit in spring, and right now I'm
>trying to help local builders, learn building, and pick
>exactly what I'm going to build. So far I keep coming back
>to an RV-6. Here's my general priorities:
>
>1. Cross-country with one passenger - up to 900 mile trips
>2. Leisure flying - something to wander the Rocky Mountains
>3. Aerobatic capable
>
>Anyway, I read the FAQ and a bunch of the old articles and
>still have a few questions I hope someone can help me with.
>
>What's a ball park price for a completed RV-6? The kit is
>about 11K, but the engine seems to be the killer. I'm
>hoping several people have completed RV-X kits and can give
>me some rough numbers.
>
>Has anyone used a auto engine, like one of the converted
>Suburu engines, in an RV-X? The aerobatics might make
>this difficult, but I don't know and wanted to ask.
>
>thanks,
>-Bryan
>
>--
>Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan@.dr.att.com - N0SFG
>Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
>
Let me try to help you. I built an RV-6 using a O-320 E2A out of a Cherokee
140. The engine was used; 2400 total time, 400 SMOH. I paid $3500 and put
$500 of work into it. That price isn't likely to be found today. Expect to
pay about $6500 to $8000 for an engine with 400 to 800 SMOH. An engine core
alone is worth about $3500 now.
The completed price, painted professionally, of my RV was about $25,000.
That included a good VFR panel with Loran, Com and Transponder with mode C.
The prop is wood and I have an $800 fuel gauge system.
One of our builders spent about $19,000 building his RV-4. Another builder
spent about $175,000 on his RV-6A ( with wood prop). Expect to spend
somewhere between $25.000 and $30,000 if building with a used engine. If
you want to have a new 180 HP engine with a CS prop and IFR instruments you
will need over $40,000. You get what you pay for.
A neighbor of mine is building an RV-6A with a Chevy V-6 (4.3 liter)
engine. He is working with another builder and both of them plan to finish
their airplanes in about 6 to 12 months. I've been following the projects
pretty closely (obviously) and I think they have a good chance of building
and flying show winning aircraft.
I plan to use an engine like what they will use in the aircraft in my Jensen
Healey. Have you ever thought what the chances are that a Lotus engine, SU
carbs and Lucas electrics will all work at the same time?? I have had the
car serviced at the mechanics and gone straight to the emission check
station; will it pass, not a chance-----. Maybe if I use the Chevy engine
with modern electonics and fuel injection (plus about 50 more HP) I will
have a real going machine. Maybe not as fast as the RV but more fun on the
ground.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
>I am submitting this question on behalf of my husband who is busy
>in the basement constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME (equilavant
>to an A&P in the States), employed full time as a flight engineer
>on a Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector in this area so
>yes he is busy.
>
>Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and
>his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling
>his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material
>(cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where
>the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents
>in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present
>in some wiping cloths.
>
>Tanks A Lot!
>
>Cathy and Dale Lamport
>Nepean, Ontario, Canada
>RV6A 23861
>
I used soap and water and a scotch-brite pad. Thoroughly clean the aluminum
as well as roughen it and the proseal will adhere to it. Be very careful
that you do not touch it with your hands if they are oily or greasy. You
can use acetone to remove the proseal before it 'sets' but after it has
cured nothing will touch it. As far as how 'sticky' the proseal is; well, I
like to say it will even stick to butter. Maybe somewhat of an exaggeration
but not by much.
Using Acetone or MEK to 'clean' the aluminum isn't good enuf. Those
chemicals will certainly lift any oil from the metal; however, when the
Acetone or MEK evaporates the oil will be redeposited right back where it
came from. Not good enough; you need to REMOVE the oils. Soap and Water
will do that.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
Although I did bring up the possibility of running one tank dry I feel
obligated to mention that I do not practice this method of fuel management
myself and, in fact, I have never flown one tank dry.
My point was that there is no better fuel management tool than a wrist
watch/flight timer/hobbs meter (whatever). Just pay attention!
If you are uncertain about your fuel level in flight the most reasonable fuel
management would be to land and buy fuel. Once again, this seems simple to me
but people run out of fuel every day trying to push it a little to far.
Oh, I just thought of another way to keep your routes short so you don't run
out of fuel. Drink four cups of coffee before you fly...keeps you alert and
guarantees that you'll be landing in two hours!
Natures calling....got to go.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
Subject: | Fwd: FW: Sizes and other (RV-6) |
I have picked up the emp, wing and fuse kits from Vans in my 1993
Taurus wagon with no problem. There are some long pieces which I had
to strap to the top on a roof rack. The Jeep has a shorter rear end so
I would question if you could get eveything in. You can not fly into
Vans and pick this stuff up. The factory is about a mile from their
airstrip. When they put together a "will-call" the factory puts all
the material on a rolling dolly. To get it to the airstrip, they would
have to crate it up. You may be able to rent or borrow a car and
shuttle the parts back and forth but this seems risky. I would also
question being able to fit the large pices of alum. sheet in a plane.
Ross Mickey
6-A fuse 605 Bulkhead installation
----------
From: Dick McNaney
Subject: Sizes and other (RV-6)
Date: Thursday, September 14, 1995 11:12AM
I have a question for those who have picked their kits up at Vans.
When one picks up a kit I understand that it is not packaged. Will a
tail
kit fit in the back end of a Cherokee (Jeep)? I suspect it will,
nicely.
How about the back end of a early Mooney? The baggage area and back
seat
area is quite large but the baggage door is pretty puny so it would
probably
have to go in the regular door. Can one land a Mooney at Vans? I
think Van
has a Bonanza but I don't know if he flies it home.
Thanks for your help,
Dick McNaney - just planning ahead
PS I just dug out my Grumman Tiger Owner's manual (I have the manual,
not
the Tiger). The Tiger has the O360 A4K with Slick mags and a starter
button. The left mag has the "shower of sparks" thing. The manual
says to
start on "both" mags and thats what I did successfully for two years.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Scott Hathcock <scotth(at)hpltbz.fc.hp.com> |
Subject: | Open Sliding Canopy |
I have learned a great deal form reading the mail on this list. I was wondering
about the consequences of having a canopy open in flight. Has anyone had
experience with the sliding canopy coming open in flight? (Information on the
tip-up would also be interesting.)
Thanks
Scott Hathcock
RV6 Tail Kit started.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | RE: Ski's in an RV-6 (again) (fwd) |
> From: aol.com!RV6junkie(at)matronics.com
>
> 3. External ski tubes may work fine on a 75
> mph cub but I have to beleive
> that they will have an adverse aerodynamic
> effect on an RV at 180 mph.
How do you mean "adverse?" We've been running external baggage pods on
F-16s for years.
> Additionally, I don't know about you, but I
> would hate to get to my
> destination and fine two empty brackets where my
> skis once were! Look-out
> below.
That's why you design a decent hard-point for mounting. Don't just slap
something together and hope it holds.
- Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!DSlavens(at)matronics.com wrote:
> You are right, the engine/prop combo is a big cost adder. The good news in
> this area is that Superior Air Parts, is going to offer a complete O-360
> "engine in a box", by next year. All new parts, including case, to be
> assemblied by your local engine shop. Cost looks like 1/2 - 2/3 the normal
> factory price. Will have to see how this compares to Van's discounted
> engines.
Will they insist on assembly by an A&P? What about those who wish to
assemble it themselves?
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
Subject: | Rivet Spacing -Reply |
I can't remember what I did but I will
comment on the rivet spacing tool. I really
like mine. It maked it very easy to make the
spacing uniform. Many times the rivit
spacing van calls out will only roughly
work. But if you take the tool and compress
it slighly reducing the spacing slightly it
makes for nice even spacing between rib
holes that are always fixed.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
>>I think everybody is getting some bad advice regarding
>>puting skis in an RV.
Has anyone created hard points on the RV series for mounting something like
a scaled down version of those WWII fuel tanks. (as a kid I always thought
they were bombs. :-)
The reason I ask, is maybe something similar to this could be created for
bagage like skiis. Hey, If you can put floats on an RV and have it fly, I
doubt it's impossible to put an external bagage compartment under the fuselage.
........or you could buy some fold up skiis. (hehe)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
Subject: | Wing Tanks -Reply |
I used high quality MEK and rags made from
old clothes that I washed before using. I
also used food grade cheese cloth. Randall
mentioned some kind of Scott chemically
pure paper towel but I could not find them
stocked any place.
>>> Catherine Lamport
09/17/95 09:21pm
>>>
I am submitting this question on behalf of
my husband who is busy in the basement
constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME
(equilavant to an A&P in the States),
employed full time as a flight engineer on a
Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector
in this area so yes he is busy.
Dale received his empennage kit November
11th of last year and his wing kit on April
17th. He is now at the stage of assembling
his wing tanks. He would like to know what
type of material (cloth) and solvent should
be used to wipe clean the surface where the
Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned
about contaminents in the cloth ie.
detergents or waxes etc. which may be
present in some wiping cloths.
Tanks A Lot!
Cathy and Dale Lamport
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
RV6A 23861
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com> |
Subject: | Engines in a box |
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!DSlavens(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> > You are right, the engine/prop combo is a big cost adder. The good news in
> > this area is that Superior Air Parts, is going to offer a complete O-360
> > "engine in a box", by next year. All new parts, including case, to be
> > assemblied by your local engine shop. Cost looks like 1/2 - 2/3 the normal>
> factory price. Will have to see how this compares to Van's discounted
> > engines.
>
> Will they insist on assembly by an A&P? What about those who wish to
> assemble it themselves?
>
>
...and what about an O-320 'in-a-box'?
Date: | Sep 18, 1995 |
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
Does anyone have any information regarding that German diesel engine?
(Zoeche or something like that)
Is there an E-Mail address or some kind of Internet address (WWW, FTP,
etc..) associated to this place?
-Thanks for the help
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Re: Wing Tanks -Reply |
rv-list(at)matronics.com
Item Subject: Wing Tanks -Reply
Hi,
I used to be a LAME and often had to seal tanks with PRC which I beleive is
another brand name for ProSeal. I always cleaned the area with copious
amounts of MEK with clean cotton rags. I don't know about using soapy
water, most soaps leave some sort of residue and if it is animal based it
will certainly leave a fatty deposit.
Regards
Mike P
RV6 downunder in Australia
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Wing Tanks -Reply
(Non-HP-jim.schmidt/HP-PaloAlto,unixgw1////////HPMEXT1:mail.mei.com!jim.schmidt@
matronics.com)
Date: 19/9/95 7:42 AM
I used high quality MEK and rags made from
old clothes that I washed before using. I
also used food grade cheese cloth. Randall
mentioned some kind of Scott chemically
pure paper towel but I could not find them
stocked any place.
>>> Catherine Lamport
09/17/95 09:21pm
>>>
Dale received his empennage kit November
11th of last year and his wing kit on April
17th. He is now at the stage of assembling
his wing tanks. He would like to know what
type of material (cloth) and solvent should
be used to wipe clean the surface where the
Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned
about contaminents in the cloth ie.
detergents or waxes etc. which may be
present in some wiping cloths.
Tanks A Lot!
Cathy and Dale Lamport
Nepean, Ontario, Canada
RV6A 23861
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | FW: Sizes and other (RV-6) |
I picked up my emp kit at Van's unpacked and it should easily fit into your
Jeep Cherokee. As far as the Mooney, I don't know. The kit contains:
Various spars each about 4 feet long.
The 2 HS reinforcing strips each about 5 feet long.
A bundle of skins about 4 feet long, 2 feet wide, 8 inches deep.
A stack of wood v-frame jig parts about 1 1/2 foot by 1 foot by 4 inches high.
A medium box of ribs, misc parts, and hardware.
You should be able to land your Mooney at Sunset airstrip.
I'm sure they would deliver the kit to the airport but you would have to
let them know this. Their offices, factory, etc are a mile or so
away, only their prototype facility and hangar are on the airport.
If you need more info on exact dimensions or other help let me know by direct
email.
Carl Weston
carl(at)stt3.com
RV-6 23876 finishing up emp kit
wing kit on order.
> I have a question for those who have picked their kits up at Vans.
> When one picks up a kit I understand that it is not packaged. Will a tail
> kit fit in the back end of a Cherokee (Jeep)? I suspect it will, nicely.
> How about the back end of a early Mooney? The baggage area and back seat
> area is quite large but the baggage door is pretty puny so it would probably
> have to go in the regular door. Can one land a Mooney at Vans? I think Van
> has a Bonanza but I don't know if he flies it home.
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Dick McNaney - just planning ahead
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars
between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first few
attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using the Avery tool
with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, the factory heads
are well seated. As I continue to drive, an unacceptable gap develops at the
factory head. I have a flush spacer block under the channel base of the
Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any
suggestions?
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
>Jim,
>
>Any plans in the near future to test fly the RV-8 and publish a "preliminary
>review" in US Aviator ?? While I understand that Van is still doing test
>flying, an early review by a independent test pilot would be interesting to
>your readers. (well, one for sure)
>
>Thanks for a great magazine,
>
>Dick Slavens Napa, CA
Yes... I've put in a call to Van, but did not get a hold of him the other
day. I do understand that aircraft is still in flight test and expect that
Dick will make sure that all is "just right" before he lets us snoopy
journalists on board, but I assure you that the minute I fly the beast, I
will post ALL here. I'm looking forward to this one.. this aircraft interests
me personally as well as professionally.
Jim Campbell
US Aviator
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
Dick,
Thanks for the reply. I understand the concern about ability to build
one of these. I've no doubt that I can, but what I was more curious
about is whether Superior would ship one of these to a homebuilder, or
only to an A&P.
- Alan
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 DSlavens(at)aol.com wrote:
> Alan,
>
> If you do not have a data plate on your Lyc. or Cont. engine, you can call it
> experimental. This will allow anyone to assemble or repair the engine. I'm
> not sure if this is a good idea, unless you already have a high skill level
> in this area. My thought was to do as much of the work myself, and have my
> local IA advise & inspect.
>
> Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your
> Superior Air Parts engine.
>
> Dick
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
Alan,
If you do not have a data plate on your Lyc. or Cont. engine, you can call it
experimental. This will allow anyone to assemble or repair the engine. I'm
not sure if this is a good idea, unless you already have a high skill level
in this area. My thought was to do as much of the work myself, and have my
local IA advise & inspect.
Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your
Superior Air Parts engine.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
Subject: | Wing Spar Riveting |
question:
I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars
between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my
first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using
the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets,
the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an
unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. I have a flush spacer
block under the channel base of the Avery tool. the apparatus is
sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any suggestions?
___
I spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together.
Couple of possibilities come to mind:
1.) Are you using a 5x rivet gun. The 3x even at high pressure is barely
powerful enough - if you are banging away at each rivet for 3-5 seconds
your rivet could be floating up (down) because the whole thing is
vibrating so much.
2.)If you are using the 5x (or 4x) gun and have a solid base ( which you
have ), then the only other possibility is that the spar is not
"preloaded" enough - when you start riveting the weight of the spar is
on the factory head.
3.)Do you have all the spar strips securely fastened ( with a 10-32
bolt) where the ribs will go?
There have been numerous articles published on at least half a dozen
different way to accomplished this task. I have a 3x gun and spent 3
weeks figuring out how to anneal rivets (properly) and making it work
with the 3x gun - the results were marginal. I finally took my
hydraulic press (the $99 12 ton import) added a 4x4 with a hole to
stabilize the ram ( the flat rivet set is on this side) and squeezed
them in place without any problems.
rich klee
6A fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Rick Solana <102131.2407(at)compuserve.com> |
Subject: | IFR Instrument panel |
I'm just starting on my RV-6a fuselage, and am wondering several things about
putting in an IFR panel in a homebuilt:
1- Do the avionics have to be TSO'd? How about the engine instruments?
2- What are the FAA inspection requirements? (I heard they are pretty
extensive for an IFR GPS in certified aircraft.)
3- Can the engine instruments be the "for homebuilts only" kind? (like from
Vision Microsystems.)
4- Anyone have any good ideas on antenna plaacement? (e.g., I hear the
wing tip may not be good for GPS because the wire run is too long for the
antenna.)
Thanks for any and all ideas.
Rick Solana
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
The following is what I set up on my RV-6A:
Two fuel gages, Van's Aircraft, one for the left tank and one for the right
tank. The way the sender floats are set up from Van's drawings, you will never
know the exact amount of fuel in the tanks when full. In fact you will draw from
each tank for quite a while before you even get an indication of fuel usage due
to the dihedral effect of the wings. Therefore the most important information I
needed from the fuel gages was an arbitrary limit that I set for myself which
was the 5 gallon mark I put on the gages. To get that mark, I had the aircraft
ready to fly except for fuel. Then I put a measured 5 gallons of fuel in each
tank and marked the gages at that point. One thing I forgot to do was level the
aircraft ( the fuselage sits nose up with the nose wheel inflated) so in flight
I really have slightly less than 5 gallons at the 5 gallon mark. I had to forget
something! Someday I may empty the tanks and level the aircraft and get the
correct 5 gallon mark. In the meantime when both tanks are near the 5 gallon
mark I know it is time to refuel.
I also have the VM 1000 engine instrument gauge which shows fuel flow per hour
and shows fuel remaining plus the number of hours of flight remaining at the
current fuel usage. However I still rely on my 5 gallon mark on the fuel gages
as the real amount remaining.
Keeping track of the fuel remaining by estimating the fuel burn per hour versus
the time in flight is still the best way to keep from running out of fuel,
providing you know the amount of fuel you started out with. Hoping this will
help.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 DSlavens(at)aol.com wrote:
> Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your
> Superior Air Parts engine.
My recollection is that the current Superior Air Parts 0200-in-a-box has
a Superior data plate on it.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com
with smtp
(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts?
Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts?
Thanks,
Dan Boudro
RV- #3933
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
Several days ago someone offered a MS Access program for his builders log.
Please contact me directly at my email below. I'm interested in knowing
more about it, yet don't want to clog up the RV-list.
My email is: RFLUNKER(at)aol.com
Thanks
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Main wing spar |
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com wrote:
> I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars
> between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first few
> attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using the Avery tool
> with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, the factory heads
> are well seated. As I continue to drive, an unacceptable gap develops at the
> factory head. I have a flush spacer block under the channel base of the
> Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any
> suggestions?
I'd want to make sure the entire weight of the spar is resting on the
rivet you are setting in order to hold it down. Also, the rivet should
require only light finger pressure to insert and seat in it's hole. Ream
the hole a little bit if required. I also had problems with factory head
gaps on my first spar. On my second, I started using a couple of 50 lb.
sandbags on top of the spar to keep the rivet seated. I used a 2 lb. hammer
with the Avery tool, rather than a rivet gun. 3-5 blows set the rivet
perfectly nearly every time. What size of rivet gun are you using? I
think a 4X is the minimum in practical terms for driving the spar rivets.
To salvage the rivets which had a gap under the factory head, I used the
avery tool with a #6 universal head die, and something like a 7/16 socket
underneath the bad rivet. Whacking in the factory head reseated it, and
then I flipped the spar over. Now the gap was on the shop head side, as
expected. I then gave the shop head a couple of additional blows with a
flat die and everything looked good. Of course, you have to be careful
not to overdrive the shop head.
Cheers,
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Derrick Aubuchon <74722.1560(at)compuserve.com> |
Hello everyone!! Here goes my introduction:
First the boring stuff...me. I spend most of my time these days working on my
project but still find time to earn a living as an air traffic controller at Bay
TRACON, CA.
My project is an RV4 #2825. I started about four LONG years ago and I think I am
beginning to see a hint of light at the end of the proverbial tunnel.
Most of the construction is complete...in fact as it sits now, the airframe is
pretty much all in one piece and on the gear. I have an engine which was buil-up
by Lycon. It is an O-320 and is waiting patiently in my home for when I decide
is the best time to install it.
Well, thats about it. If anyone has any particular questions in mind, I would be
more than happy to attempt an answer.
Happy building!!
Derrick L. Aubuchon
74722.1560(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | re: bolt torque and hole sizes |
>Dan Boudro asked;
>Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
AC43.13-1A, Chapter 5, Figure 5.2 provides the following "recommended torque
values for nut-bolt combinations";
Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut
AN 310 AN 320 AN 310 AN 320
AN 315 AN 364 AN 315 AN 364
AN 363 NAS 1022 AN 363 NAS 1022
AN 365 MS 17826 AN 365 MS 17826
NAS 1021 MS 20364 MS 17825 MS 20364
MS 17825 MS 20365
MS 21045 MS 21045
MS 20365 NAS 1021
MS 20500 NAS 679
NAS 679 NAS 1291
Torque Limits Torque Limits Torque Limits Torque Limits
IN.-LBS. IN.-LBS. IN.-LBS. IN.-LBS.
Min. Max. Min. Max. Min. Max. Min. Max.
Bolt
AN3 20 25 12 15
AN4 50 70 30 40
AN5 100 140 60 85
NAS 1303 25 30 15 20
NAS 1304 80 100 50 60
NAS 1305 120 145 70 90
>Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts?
Chapter 5, Section 1, Paragraph 227d titled Bolt Fit states - - - Generally, it
is permissible to use the first lettered drill size larger than the normal bolt
diameter, except - - - . (For light-drive fit (reamed) applications and where
NAS close-tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used, a bolt fit is not
identified.)
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 Now the hard part. How do I keep it flying, while making changes to
the airframe? (new gear leg/cowl intersection fairing, improved exhaust system,
reduced engine cowl cooling air inlet, etc.??)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Subject: | Wing Spar Riveting |
>However my
>first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I'm using
>the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets,
>the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an
>unacceptable gap develops at the factory head.
>
>
> spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together.
>ouple of possibilities come to mind:
I solved my problem by purchasing a 4 lb hammer (A bad hammer?) at
Home Depot. Now one left spar finished with perfect rivets. I know
have a right arm like Arnold Swartzenegger.
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Rib Lightening holes- Emp |
I'm contemplating not cutting the lightening holes in the HS Ribs. I realize
this will cost me a few ounces, but since I don't have a slow enough drill
press to do it with I'm hoping to save a few bucks as well.
Anyone see any problem with not cutting them out.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Subject: | Wing Spar Riveting |
>However my
>first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I'm using
>the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets,
>the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an
>unacceptable gap develops at the factory head.
>
>
> spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together.
>ouple of possibilities come to mind:
I solved my problem by purchasing a 4 lb hammer (A bad hammer?) at
Home Depot. Now one left spar finished with perfect rivets. I know
have a right arm like Arnold Swartzenegger.
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
Start the engine on the left mag only. If you don't, the engine can fire the
right mag and reverse the rotation. If you are lucky, only the starter gear
will shear. If not, the cost can be very high.
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
*** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
Uhhhh...not that I want to seem anxious or anything, but has anyone
received their RV'ator yet? I seem to remember a post saying they were
off to press the first week of Sept....RV-8 information fever has hit me
bigtime .
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
Alan & Dave,
I'm going to call Superior Air Parts in the morning and get more details on
this engine purchase plan. I'll E-mail whatever information I receive. When
I was talking to the salesman at Oshkosh and told him the application was for
a RV, he did not describe any limitations to sales to A&Ps only.
So, has anyone received their Aug. issue of "RVator" yet ??
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
Subject: | Re: RVator? (non-tech) |
> Uhhhh...not that I want to seem anxious or anything, but has anyone
> received their RV'ator yet? I seem to remember a post saying they were
> off to press the first week of Sept....RV-8 information fever has hit me
> bigtime .
> Rob.
Yessir - my copy came Monday. I live in Portland, about 40 miles from
where they were mailed. I believe they are now sent 3rd (I think) class, so
keep that in mind. There is no postmark date, so I don't know when they
were mailed for sure, but it was most likely the last part of
last week.
Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu
Van's "WebManager"
http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: bolt torques |
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote:
> Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts?
That's easy. AC43-13 has a nice little table. (BTW, anyone building
or repairing an airpllane really needs to have a copy. We may be building
homebuilts, but even homebuilts must be built according to "Acceptable
Methods, Techniques and Practices".
Bolt Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut
AN3 20-25 ft/lbs 12-15 ft/lbs
AN4 50-70 30-40
AN5 100-140 60-85
The torque values for NAS bolts will also vary depending upon diameter.
> Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts?
TO quote AC43-13:
"Generally, it is permissable to use the first lettered drill size
larger than the normal bolt diameter, except where the AN hexagon
bolts are used in light-drive fit (reamed) applications and where
NAS close-tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used.
So the drill sizes for AN bolts would be:
AN3 #12
AN4 F
AN5 O
Right offhand, I don't know what the hole sizes should be for
NAS close-tolerance bolts.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: Rib Lightening holes- Emp |
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 RFlunker(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm contemplating not cutting the lightening holes in the HS Ribs. I realize
> this will cost me a few ounces, but since I don't have a slow enough drill
> press to do it with I'm hoping to save a few bucks as well.
>
> Anyone see any problem with not cutting them out.
>
I don't see a problem, but on the other hand:
1. even a drill press that turns 500rpm should be able to do the job.
2. There are several other places (aileron and flap spars, fuel tank
inboard end ribs come to mind right away) where you'll also need to use a
fly cutter. Since you are going to have to do it eventually anyway. . .
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com
with smtp
(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put
one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked
ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did
not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every
once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back
(right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter
gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually
gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had
a problem after that.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Rich Klee <rich_klee(at)ccm.fm.LOCAL.intel.com> |
question:
I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars
between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first
few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using
the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets,
the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an
unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. I have a flush spacer
block under the channel base of the Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting
flat on a concrete floor. Any suggestions?
___
I spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together.
Couple of possibilities come to mind:
1.) Are you using a 5x rivet gun. The 3x even at high pressure is barely
powerful enough - if you are banging away at each rivet for 3-5 seconds
your rivet could be floating up (down) because the whole thing
is vibrating so much.
2.)If you are using the 5x (or 4x) gun and have a solid base
( which you have ), then the only other possibility is that the spar
is not "preloaded" enough - when you start riveting the weight of
the spar is on the factory head.
3.)Do you have all the spar strips securely fastened ( with a 10-32 bolt)
where the ribs will go?
There have been numerous articles published on at least half a dozen
different way to accomplished this task. I have a 3x gun and spent
3 weeks figuring out how to anneal rivets (properly) and making
it work with the 3x gun - the results were marginal. I finally took
my hydraulic press (the $99 12 ton import) added a 4x4 with a hole
to stabilize the ram ( the flat rivet set is on this side) and squeezed
them in place without any problems.
rich klee
6A fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Subject: | Re: New guy on the list |
RW> New to the list and no progress to report. Still getting the
RW> knowledge and info together to get started on something. The something
RW> may end up as an RV4 or RV8.
RW> I'm located on Maui, so if I get this thing going, you'll all have a
RW> good excuse to visit (read: help)! In the mean time, I fly for
RW> Northwest out of HNL.
RW> Aloha,
Russ,
Do you know Skip Pease who has a most beautiful RV-4 based at Hilo? That
airplane was originally built here in St. Paul, MN area by one of our MN Wing
members. I helped ship it out to HI and came out to Hilo to help with the
reassembly. That is a major story in itself!!
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
CL> his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material
CL> (cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where
CL> the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents
CL> in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present
CL> in some wiping cloths.
CL> Tanks A Lot!
Cathy:
I am just in the process of building my fuel tanks and thus far have found this
process to work fine:
1. Use 240 grit wet/dri sandpaper to rough all the the surfaces that Proseal
is desired to adhere to (inner skin surfaces, rib flanges, drain and fuel tank
cap flanges, etc.)
2. I used good old Coleman Lantern fuel (naptha) as Van recommends for the
cleaning solvent. Clean, clean, and clean again until your towel shows no
residue. I found a new Scott paper towel at the local grocery called "Scott
Clean". It is quite thick compared to a regular paper towel, is very strong,
and is totally lint free. They are about twice as expense as a "regular"
paper towel, but seems to do the job just fine.
3. Lacquer thinner works just fine to clean up clecoes and errant globs of
Proseal. I lined all of the areas in the tank with high quality 3-M 2" wide
masking tape that I did not want Pro Seal on. Makes for a nice neat job.
Remove the masking tape as the ProSeal begins to set.
I haven't finished my tanks yet to know whether they will leak, but I am being
very, very generous with the Proseal and it seems to stick like crazy.
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Still waiting...
- Alan
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Rob Acker wrote:
>
> Uhhhh...not that I want to seem anxious or anything, but has anyone
> received their RV'ator yet? I seem to remember a post saying they were
> off to press the first week of Sept....RV-8 information fever has hit me
> bigtime .
>
> Rob.
>
> * SLMR 2.1a *
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com |
Subject: | lightening holes in HS |
You need to cut at least one in the left root rib for the trim cable.
I cut mine using a wood boring bit in a hand drill. I believe the diamater
is 1 3/8. It's not a very sophisticated solution and you can expect to throw awaway
your $3 drill bit after about 10 holes but it works fine.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Can anyone tell me how big the shipping crate is for the fuselage kit (RV-4)?
I'm trying to beg/borrow/steal a truck to pick mine up from the shipper.
Thanks...
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
Subject: | NAS Bolt hole size. |
In addition to AC 43.13-1A, additional information can be found in
AC65-9A. Here is where you can find the info on hole size for close
tolerance bolts. I believe in chapter 5 (Hardware) it states that NAS
and other close tolerance bolts should be reamed to 0.0015" clearance.
The AC65-9A, AC65-12A, and AC65-15A were all written as A&P Text
books. They contain additional info beyond the AC 43-13.
I agree with Jim and Dave that AC 43.13-1A is a must have.
Gary A. Sobek -6,20480 N157GS
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
Subject: | This is the Duck, over... |
Hi rv-list gang, long time no talk to.
Met a few of you at the homecoming this year.
I'm still 'abstaining' due to workload, but wanted to get in contact
with a builder that was coming for a Van's builder's class. He was
going to be staying out near me, just wondering if he's still coming and
I didn't save his addr.
Keep building!
Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369 (220hrs)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
Does anyone make a switch in the following configuration? :
OFF - RIGHT - BOTH - LEFT - LEFT/START
You could also put together a delay circuit to delay the ungrounding of
the right mag a short time after the switch comes off of the START position.
This could be more trouble than it is worth (circuitry, reliability, etc.)
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| Studying preview plans! #24179 |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote:
> Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put
> one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked
> ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did
> not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every
> once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back
> (right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter
> gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually
> gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had
> a problem after that.
> Dan Boudro
> RV-4 #3933
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
> From nmia.com!pla_ems(at)matronics.com Wed Sep 20 09:53:45 1995
> X-Deleted-Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 07:32:36 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Plains Electric EMS <nmia.com!pla_ems(at)matronics.com>
>
> Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put
> one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked
> ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did
> not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every
> once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back
> (right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter
> gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually
> gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had
> a problem after that.
> Dan Boudro
> RV-4 #3933
>
Sounds like you have some sort of problem with the left mag. 85W had
similar problems. We went through the entire ignition and starter systems
and replaced everything that was even slightly suspect. She fires up after
two blades _every_ time now (cold or hot). The idle is smoother also.
Problems included:
Old ignition wires (real old)
Tired mags (burnt contact spring in the cap and a cracked coil)
Cable from the master relay to the starter had several broken strands.
Problems like hard starting can be resolved if you don't mind spending
some time and $$. IMHO the results are well worth the effort. There's
nothing like hitting the starter and getting "GrrrRrrrWaroom" every time.
Part of the excellent starting is due to what an "ol' timer" showed me.
Forget the primer, pump the trhottle two or three times/ leave it open 1/4"
just before you hit the starter and a Lyc. will start every time. Timing
is everything.
Chris
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | barr(at)netcom.netcom.com (Keith Barr) |
Subject: | Re: NAS Bolt hole size. (fwd) |
CCGATE.HAC.COM!gasobek(at)matronics.com says:
> I agree with Jim and Dave that AC 43.13-1A is a must have.
If anyone is interested, I have 43.13-1A & 43.13-2A in electronic format.
They are zipped together, and you can pick them up on my netcom anonymous
ftp account. Go to ftp.netcom.com, /pub/ba/barr, and get AC4113.ZIP.
They are in DOS txt format (with those stupid ^Ms), so you will have to run
dos2unix on it if you are using a real machine (Linux of course :^)
___________________________________ _____
| Keith Barr barr(at)netcom.com \ \ \__ _____
| COM-ASMEL-IA-A&IGI \ \ \/_______\___\_____________
| Westminster, Colorado, USA }-----< /_/ ....................... `-.
| http://chinook.atd.ucar.edu/~barr / `-----------,----,--------------'
|___________________________________/ _/____/0
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
Am I missing something...
In an "experimental" you can do anything you want including assembling an
engine out of a box. The "only" ramification I can see is a 40 hour versus
25 hour flight test period and that (25Hr) is only available if you use a
certified prop which implys a constant speed unit in the case of RV's....
Richard
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Russ Werner <70263.242(at)compuserve.com> |
Subject: | Re: New guy on the list |
Doug,
Yes,
I got to see the airplane at the last EAA fly-in on Maui. He related the gory
details of the shipping trauma! I had heard about that one before, but had not
seen it before that. Nice machine, and I could see no evidence of the repair.
Aloha, Russ
PS, I am writing this from your backyard, as I am in MSP doing my annual
training/checks at NATCO!
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
Yea, call Van's. 503-647-5117
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Fuse crate
Date: 9/20/95 10:47 AM
Can anyone tell me how big the shipping crate is for the fuselage kit (RV-4)?
I'm trying to beg/borrow/steal a truck to pick mine up from the shipper.
Thanks...
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 10:47:33 EDT
Subject: Fuse crate
From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com>
1)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
I talked to the Superior Air Parts sales group today. They expect to have a
O-320 and O-360 model parts available in 1996. This will include cases,
crankshafts, camshafts, cylinder assemblies, etc. That's the upside.
The bad news is that they do not intend to sell all of the internal (parts
inside the case).
Dick Slavens Napa, CA waiting for RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
Subject: | Re: Fuse crate (fwd) |
It will fit in the back of an extended Van as that is how I moved mine.
I don't know the specific demensions. Just call the shipper and they can
probably walk out an measure it. A pickup would work fine.
> Subject: Fuse crate
> Author: windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com at Internet_Gateway
> Date: 9/20/95 10:47 AM
>
>
> Can anyone tell me how big the shipping crate is for the fuselage kit (RV-4)?
> I'm trying to beg/borrow/steal a truck to pick mine up from the shipper.
>
> Thanks...
> Dave Hyde
> nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
>
> Text item: External Message Header
>
> The following mail header is for administrative use
> and may be ignored unless there are problems.
>
> ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
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> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 10:47:33 EDT
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list)
> Subject: Fuse crate
> From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com>
> Received: by windvane.umd.edu
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--
--------------------------------------------------------
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AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
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mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
Plains Electric EMS
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | Re: bolt torques |
>
>
>On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts?
>
>That's easy. AC43-13 has a nice little table. (BTW, anyone building
>or repairing an airpllane really needs to have a copy. We may be building
>homebuilts, but even homebuilts must be built according to "Acceptable
>Methods, Techniques and Practices".
>
>Bolt Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut
>AN3 20-25 ft/lbs 12-15 ft/lbs
>AN4 50-70 30-40
>AN5 100-140 60-85
>
>The torque values for NAS bolts will also vary depending upon diameter.
>
>> Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts?
>
>TO quote AC43-13:
>"Generally, it is permissable to use the first lettered drill size
>larger than the normal bolt diameter, except where the AN hexagon
>bolts are used in light-drive fit (reamed) applications and where
>NAS close-tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used.
>
>So the drill sizes for AN bolts would be:
>
>AN3 #12
>AN4 F
>AN5 O
>
>Right offhand, I don't know what the hole sizes should be for
>NAS close-tolerance bolts.
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
>
Before you try to tighten an AN3 bolt to 20 to 25 foot/pounds I suggest you
look up the correct torque values again. Don't feel bad, I tried to tighten
my engine mount bolts to somewhere around 150 foot/pounds; after the steel
washers started to swage out from under the nut I called my local EAA Tech
Counselor. He delicately suggested that maybe they meant 'inch/pounds'. If
you divide the above figures by 12 I think they will be in a more realistic
range.
I'm a Tech Counselor now so I get to pontificate and expound with the best
of them. ------
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
>Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put
>one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked
>ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did
>not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every
>once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back
>(right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter
>gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually
>gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had
>a problem after that.
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 #3933
>
I've had this same problem. Haven't stripped any starters yet, luckily. I
agree with Dan that two spst switches would solve the problem. If I was
doin' it again I'd seriously think of using switches instead of that very
expensive switch. If you do use the 'bendix' switch be sure to install the
1/2" jumper on the back of the switch. If you don't, the right mag won't be
grounded while starting.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | Engine Selection |
I'm beginning to look ahead to engine selection and would appreciate some
hard facts from current RV6/6A flyers.
What kind of fuel economy and cruise do you experience with your current
0-360 or 0-320 with fixed pitch props.
If you respond please indicate which engine, prop, and whether a 6 or 6A.
thanks
Chet Razer in Sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
>Alan,
>
>If you do not have a data plate on your Lyc. or Cont. engine, you can call it
>experimental. This will allow anyone to assemble or repair the engine. I'm
>not sure if this is a good idea, unless you already have a high skill level
>in this area. My thought was to do as much of the work myself, and have my
>local IA advise & inspect.
>
>Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your
>Superior Air Parts engine.
>
>Dick
For a $5,000 savings, I would be very willing to put my own
nameplate on it, call the manufacturer "Alexander", and start a new log
book. That's exactly what we are doing with our airframes.
It's the Lycoming data plate (and all that goes with it, good and
bad) that costs a lot of those big engine bucks!!!
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 would sell my run-out O-320
if SAP sold an O-360 kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Skis in a RV6 - followup |
Rv-listers,
A follow-up from the original "skis in a RV6" posting that
I entered for a builder in Orange county.
He has elected to go for a "belly cargo container" approach after
getting an offer of fiberglass assistance from one of the glass homebuilt
kit suppliers. He thinks a shallow belly pan extending from the firewall
to the baggage bulkhead should do the trick, and not screw up the CG.
I did forward the more sensible comments :^) to him, and will
forward any others you may send directly to me.
I will keep the list appraised of his progress, but but it will be
several months before the next report.
... on his behalf .... thanks for the comments .... Gil Alexander
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Gregg L. Sloan" <gsloan(at)CapAccess.org> |
When I bought my RV6A fuselage in 1994 the create was 97" x 37" x 16" high,
weight was about 285 lbs. Call Van for the numbers; they have this
creating stuff down to a science.
Gregg Sloan_____gsloan(at)capaccess.org_____Herndon, Virginia__USA
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
Subject: | Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box |
Oh, boy. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Yes, what you say is
true. I ask because I don't know what Superior's position is on selling
their ???-in-a-box to a homebuilder who is NOT an A&P. Kind of like tha
auto parts company who won't sell you a part if they know you will use it
in a homebuilt aircraft.
- Alan
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Richard Bibb wrote:
> Am I missing something...
>
> In an "experimental" you can do anything you want including assembling an
> engine out of a box. The "only" ramification I can see is a 40 hour versus
> 25 hour flight test period and that (25Hr) is only available if you use a
> certified prop which implys a constant speed unit in the case of RV's....
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
>
> I've had this same problem. Haven't stripped any starters yet, luckily. I
> agree with Dan that two spst switches would solve the problem. If I was
> doin' it again I'd seriously think of using switches instead of that very
> expensive switch. If you do use the 'bendix' switch be sure to install the
> 1/2" jumper on the back of the switch. If you don't, the right mag won't be
> grounded while starting.
>
> John Ammeter
> RV-6 N16JA
> Flying 5 years
>
>
I think you guys have some other problem. What everybody is describing
can result from slow cranking. The starter should crank the engine very
enthusiasticly. If it cranks slow there is some other problem. I can't
explain what a huge difference there is in the starting of 85W now that we
replaced a few parts.
Try puting a voltage meter between the battery post and the terminal on
the starter. It should read very close to 0 volts when cranking. If there
is _any_ voltage indicated then there is some loss in the connection from
the battery to the starter. The starter that Lycoming uses is a industrial
truck starter. it's used on _much_ larger engines and it draws alot of
current. You need to have a beefy cable from the battery to the starter.
The longer the cable is the bigger it should be. Even on short runs the
little #4 cables that some builders use to save pounds are just to light.
Get a big "#1"
or even "0" cable and I bet the problem will go away. Fix the problem not
the symptom.
_______________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) Cranks like a fan now! cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: | compasses for RVs |
What do most people do for compasses in RV's?
I ask from a tip up canopy perspective, but maybe others
would be interested from a more general point of view.
I've already read the posts about the vertical card compasses
and no need to rehash that.
Some possibilities seem to be:
Attatch to canopy?
Pedestal mount above panel.
Panel mount.
The already discussed vertical card.
Not knowing any better, it seems like panel mount is attractive
to me. Are the corrections for magnetic interference much worse
here than a foot or so higher using pedestal? Any other cons?
Thanks,
(RV6A tail kit purchase in a few months, probably)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
Gil:
So far I really enjoy the VM-1000. I now have 150 hours on the system and
replaced two egt probes under warranty. I have had excellent service from Vision
Microsystems. The fuel flow system is standard, only the fuel quantity system is
extra and it requires installation in the tanks as you build them. It would be
possible to retrofit tanks but that would require access holes for each bay on
the aft side of the tanks. If I had to build the tanks over, I would put the
access panels in at the start. It is much easier to proseal the tanks that way
and eventually I will have to do it as I sloshed my tanks after prosealing. I am
helping a local builder with his RV-4 and we installed the access panels from
the start. Live and learn!
The standard fuel flow system shows fuel remaining, time to empty tanks at the
present fuel burn, fuel remaining, fuel added and present fuel flow. If you
install the system on a fuel injected engine, you would have to figure some way
to account for the fuel that is returned to the tank. A standard carb does not
need that provision. There are a number of items on the VM-1000 that I have not
mentioned that I didn't know were part of the system such as total engine time.
I still haven't read all of the manual but will have to one of these days.
I priced the separate engine instruments that I wanted for my project (new) and
they came out close to the VM-1000 unit so I opted for the all in one concept.
As I have said before, so far so good.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
Hello all,
I'm a newbe on this list, but haven't given a quick bio yet, so here go's.
I'm currently building the left wing tank on my RV6a. (and having a great
time!!!)
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon
Time spent on project: 1 year which equates to an unknown amount of
hours
(actually the hours are logged, I'm just afraid to look) :-)
Occupation: Computer programmer by degree and aircraft enthusiast by
desire
Engine of choice: Undecided, but probably a new O-360 from Van's
(but really curious about that German made Diesel... Zoeche or
something like that)
Instruments: Basic VFR
Paint Type: Un-educated and therefore undecided
Bomb Load: None :-)
That's all folks..... glad to see a group of email'n rv'ators!
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
Subject: | Flight characteristics |
Being an uneducated pilot in the area of aerobatics, could someone give me a
basic lesson as to the do's and don'ts in an RV (assuming proper training)
My understanding is that rolls, loop, basic inverted maneuvers (assuming
inverted configuration on tanks/engine) are allowed. What type of maneuvers
are considered 'too-stressful' for an RV to handle.
Can I do a tail slide..... can I... can I? (hehe)
I've always wanted to be in an aircraft during a tail-slide.
How about a hammerhead? snap roll?
Don't think I have the intention of getting in my newley built RV and trying
these maneuvers that I have no clue as to proper execution. I just want to
be aware of the manuevers it can perform when learning aerobatic maneuvers
with an instructor. (Know what to learn)
-Thanks and P.S. I'm not building the RV to become an aerobatic pilot, I
would just like to let my girl do the things she can do. (am I getting to
attached?)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
Subject: | Starter Problems |
I caught a quick blurb about a started turning the engine 'enthusiatically'
enough. I haven't been following the discussion, so maybe my comments are
way out to lunch. (which is what I'm gonna be in a few minutes... hehe)
I've had a similar problem with automotive engines, and have found that if
the started gears aren't aligned properly with the flywheel, the starter
will bind and turn the engine over very slowly or eratically. I don't have
much (any) experience with Lycoming starter assemblies, but it might be
worth checking.
I've seen it be something as crazy as a good piece of dirt stuck between the
engine case and the starter housing causing the starter to be slightly
cocked causing the gears to bind.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
Mine showed up yesterday, in NJ.
Worth the wait. But still havn't seen an interior shot.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
Subject: | (fwd) Malcolm S. Forbes, Jr. is aviation-unfriendly |
As Steve Forbes makes his announcement for 1996 presidential candidacy
tomorrow, please keep something in mind. He is the man that is trying
to drive the owners of Somerset Airport, a privately owned public-use
airport in NJ, out of business. The airport happens to be in his backyard (a
pretty big one that accommodates his personal helicopter). Of course, the
airport was built before any of the housing developments in the area.
He has sent his lawyer to almost every county and township board meeting and
hearings, influenced them to pass regulations on airport use some of which
have been determined to be against federal regulations, has refused to carry
out FAA mandated safety regulations on his own property (trimming tree tops).
His platform theme includes "pro-growth, pro-opportunity" for businesses. This
is the man who sent a letter to the owner of the airport that he would not
fight the airport if the owner agreed to never "grow" the airport. The hottest
issue so far has been the plan to build some hangars on airport property which
has been labeled as an "expansion" of the airport and opposed by the group that
Steve Forbes backs. The hypocracy starts at his own backyard. The airport
owners have spent a fortune to fight back the rules that Steve Forbes backed
township keeps imposing.
This is not a political issue. I have no political agenda. I have no idea
if Steve Forbes will make it anywhere in his political ambitions. I have no
relationship with Somerset Airport other than being a satisfied customer.
I just don't think we need people like Malcolm Forbes to be anywhere near
where public policies are made.
There is no need to blindly believe anything I have said above. It is all
documented in newspapers. If you think there is an "other" side to the
story, at least investigate the issues before you use that generic excuse as a
rationalization for supporting Steve Forbes.
If you have or know a magazine/newspaper that is interested in this story,
let me know and I will try to get you in touch with a local free-lancer that
has documented this affair in his aviation columns.
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA> |
Subject: | Re: Rivet Spacing |
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically
> > pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar
> > rivet spacing tools worth the money?
> >
> The "rivet fan" is a must have tool. Don't drill holes without it.
I'm afraid I disagree. My expensive rivet fan tool has sat on the shelf
since the first time I used it. I find it to be heavy and awkward, it
scratches the
aluminum, it is too easy to bump it against something which immediately
changes my carefully adjusted spacing, and the two holes in the center
of the tool don't have the same spacing as the rest of the holes, at
least on my tool.
What I use are a half dozen 1" by 24" strips of cardboard (cost: $0.37)
each with a different spacing marked on it. Basically they are just
custom made rulers. They are cheap, easy to use, don't scratch the
aluminum, never get out of adjustment and if I need to adjust the spacing
of a rivet or two to clear some obstacle, I just eyeball it. Frankly, of
all the airplanes I have looked at up close and admired, I just never
noticed whether the rivet heads had perfectly consistant spacing or not,
but, to each his own.
Cheers,
Curt (obviously destined never to win Best of Show) Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
Jim
I'm a little disappointed with what I've read about the RV-8 in
the latest RVATOR. Van states that an RV-4 with same HP should fly as
fast or faster. I'm not sure I see the advantages to the RV-8 (unless
your are too big for the RV-4), and I am
curious as to why you are so interested. For pure performance I think
the king is still the RV-3 and if you want to take someone with you, the
RV-6 is best. Anyway my opinions can be changed based upon new iedas or
perspectives. So I ask this question in the spirit of improving my
knowledge.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!CAP10ZOOM(at)matronics.com wrote:
I will post ALL here. I'm looking forward to this one.. this aircraft interests
> me personally as well as professionally.
>
> Jim Campbell
> US Aviator
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Rib Lightening holes- Emp |
I have cut holes as fast as 800-900 rpm, it is a little hairy, but it
worked and nothing flew around the shop while doing it. How slow is your
drill?
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 aol.com!RFlunker(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I'm contemplating not cutting the lightening holes in the HS Ribs. I realize
> this will cost me a few ounces, but since I don't have a slow enough drill
> press to do it with I'm hoping to save a few bucks as well.
>
> Anyone see any problem with not cutting them out.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com> |
Subject: | Re: Flight characteristics |
On Sep 21, 10:13am, Steve Day wrote:
} Subject: Flight characteristics
} Being an uneducated pilot in the area of aerobatics, could someone
} give me a basic lesson as to the do's and don'ts in an RV
} (assuming proper training)
}
Please post your replies here, Steve. I'd like to know the
same info.
} My understanding is that rolls, loop, basic inverted maneuvers
} (assuming inverted configuration on tanks/engine) are allowed.
} What type of maneuvers are considered 'too-stressful' for an RV
} to handle?
}
} Can I do a tail slide..... can I... can I? (hehe)
} I've always wanted to be in an aircraft during a tail-slide.
}
There's a maneuver called the falling-leaf involving carefully
controlled stalls. I had an uncle who did them in a biplane.
Are they possible in an RV?
I too know little about the performance of aerobatics, but it's
a definite goal, so I want to plan in advance.
-Bryan
--
Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
This message introduces Fred & Carolynn Hiatt. We are building an RV-6A
and have completed all of the empenage except for the elevaters. Our
wing kit is here ready to start. Contact information is:
Fred & carolynn Hiatt
40 Birnamwood Dr.
Burnsville, MN 55337
Home tele: (612) 894-7642
Office tele: (612) 894-3824
FAX: (612) 894-4235
email: hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu
We have our own engineering consulting company, and do business
worldwide. Fred is an ex-USAF jet fighter (F-86F), and an ex-USN
helicopter pilot, now holding a Ph.D. in Solid State Physical Electronics.
Fred has approx. 3200 hr. flight time. Carolynn is finishing up her
private pilot instruction.
We are building our RV in our garage, that is heated and airconditioned,
(it's a tuckunder, so it was reasonably easy to do).
BIG NEWS FLASH -- Our oldest son just won first place in the world
championship radio controlled helicopter competition recently held in Japan.
We could use some advice. We are interested in becoming part of an
airpark community (somewhere). We are looking at Texas, and Virginia.
If anyone has any suggestions for us please send them.
We've built additions to our home, built model helicopters, and done just
about everything else, but this is our first airplane. So far it has
been very enjoyable, and our neighbors keep on top of our project as if
they were doing it themselves.
That's about it, this is long enough already.
Glad to be here!
F & C Hiatt
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
> Jim
>
I'm a little disappointed with what I've read about the RV-8 in
> the latest RVATOR. Van states that an RV-4 with same HP should fly
> as fast or faster.
Makes sense. All other things being equal (Which they won't be) with a
bigger RV8, the Weight/HP ratio will be worse. Of course, the RV8 was
designed so you could tuck that IO360 you couldn't cram into your RV6 under
the cowl.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Subject: | DPS Fuel Flow Meters |
I wrote recently about how good the fuel flow meters sold by DPS Instruments
were. Unfortunately, I found out that DPS has probably gone out of
business. I tried calling them and found the phone number is now someone
else. The operator has no listing for DPS, either.
I'm not real happy about this; hope I have no problems with my fuel flow
sensors. At least, if the problem is in the flow meters themselves I know
where to purchase replacements.
If anyone in the Chino CA area can find out what happened to Bob Johnson of
DPS let me know. I can tell you his phone number is NOT 909-606-0403 or
909-606-0706; those people seem friendly but that may not last if too many
people call them asking for Bob Johnson.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
I believe the article on Forbes Jr. should be attributed to Venky from the
rec.aviation newsgroups.
- Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
Subject: | Re: compasses for RVs |
Karl, I installed my compass in the panel right next to the canopy eject
handle and it works great. Just have your welder friend remake the handle
out of non-magnetic stainless! Also, route your strobe power supply wires
and position light wires AWAY from the compass. They draw enough current to
create fields strong enough so you can't adjust the compass properly.
(Whiskey compass)
Jim Stugart RV6/6A
Austin, TX Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
I am new to the group (1 month) and have introduced myself.
Does anyone know where I can get a copy of UUDECODE? I thought I has
software that would handle this, but it looks like it won,t.
Thanks
Bill Costello
RV-6 working on empennage
Chicago
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | John Brown <jmbrown(at)aimnet.com> |
I have a question on corrosion. Several pieces of 2024 have
some "spotchy" corrosion from sitting around to much and getting a little
wet. I would say the no singe area is more than 1/4 in len or width.
and is usually on the edge and not in the center etc.
Is it safe to assume that if I can scotch brite the spots out and then
prime the piece everything will be ok??
Thanks in advance for the reply.
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
I'm in the process of building my left wing.
I have mounted (clecoed) all the ribs to the
main and rear spar and am looking at positioning
the tube for wiring and the plumbing for the
pitot. I placed my tie-down in the standard
position and would like to move the pitot
outboard one more bay to minimize interference
with the tie-down bracket.
Is there any reason why the pitot should not
be moved outboard one rib bay? I can't imagine
that the airflow would be any different, but
I am nowhere close to being informed about
airflow patterns around the wing.
Thanks!
Doug Medema
Spars done, left wing proceeding. Rv-6A, #21140
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | Three Cheers for Avery |
Folks -- some of you will recall I was looking for a tool vendor last week
(or the week before), and based on the recommendations of the listers, I went
Avery. I called them at 8.00 am, and by 10.00 the same day, they had the "RV
Tail Tool Kit" on its way. Everything arrived in perfect shape the next day.
The shipment was beautifully packed, and complete, with the exception of
two, small, currently non-critical items that will be shipped this week.
Without hesitation I recommend them, and will use them again. Thanx to Judy
and Bob, and to the listers that made the recommendation!
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Bought The Tools, Finished Reroofing The Workshop, Attending
Course Next Week"
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
Subject: | New Air Racing Class? (Chatter) |
Folks -- just returned from a few fun filled days at the National
Championship Air Races in Reno...for those of you that haven't heard yet,
Bill Destefani in Strega won, John Penney in the Rare Bare was second, and
Dego Red (forgot pilot's name, sorry) came third. Excellent show if haven't
seen it already. Hint: if you go, pay the $15-20 bucks and get a pit pass,
it's worth it.
Back to the matter at hand. Despite my enthusiasm for the
event, I can't help but think that air racing is dying slowly. What appears
to be needed is an inexpensive, robust airframe that can go fast, and doesn't
cost a lot, and with lots of examples flying that demonstrate pretty
consistent performance...hey, wait a minute, didn't I just describe the RVs?
My point, of course, is whether or not anybody has ever contemplated closed
course racing in an all RV class?
I'm sure that this is likely to raise
some eyebrows, but should spark some good debate!! Cheers...
Terry in
Calgary
S/N 24414
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
>
> Makes sense. All other things being equal (Which they won't be) with a
> bigger RV8, the Weight/HP ratio will be worse. Of course, the RV8 was
> designed so you could tuck that IO360 you couldn't cram into your RV6 under
> the cowl. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> --
Not so. It's been done.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
Robert Busick
Subject: | Re[2]: RV-8 Article. |
Hmmm, those of us building RV-4s think that if you want to take
someone with you, the RV-4 is best. Nothing like sitting on the
centerline while doing acro. Sorry, couldn't resist.
:-)
Mike Pilla
RV-4
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
Date: 9/21/95 7:54 PM
--- snip ---
For pure performance I think the king is still the RV-3 and if you want
to take someone with you, the RV-6 is best. Anyway my opinions can be
changed based upon new iedas or perspectives.
--- snip ---
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!CAP10ZOOM(at)matronics.com wrote:
I will post ALL here. I'm looking forward to this one.. this aircraft interests
> me personally as well as professionally.
>
> Jim Campbell
> US Aviator
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
>> I'm a little disappointed with what I've read about the RV-8 in
>>the latest RVATOR. Van states that an RV-4 with same HP should fly as
>>fast or faster. I'm not sure I see the advantages to the RV-8 (unless
>>your are too big for the RV-4), and I am
>>curious as to why you are so interested. For pure performance I think
>>the king is still the RV-3 and if you want to take someone with you, the
>>RV-6 is best. Anyway my opinions can be changed based upon new iedas or
>>perspectives. So I ask this question in the spirit of improving my
>>knowledge.
What did you expect, when you make a plane bigger and heavier with the same
basic design, you generally don't go faster on the same amount of
horsepower. I think the RV-8 is there for those who want an airframe that
can handle more 'umfff' with a bit more comfort. I really believe the RV
series is a great line-up of aircraft for 'total performance' aircraft.
Each fits a different need.
-Just my opinion
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Subject: | Re: bolt torques |
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, John Ammeter wrote:
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote:
> >
>
> Before you try to tighten an AN3 bolt to 20 to 25 foot/pounds I suggest you
> look up the correct torque values again. Don't feel bad, I tried to tighten
> my engine mount bolts to somewhere around 150 foot/pounds; after the steel
> washers started to swage out from under the nut I called my local EAA Tech
> Counselor. He delicately suggested that maybe they meant 'inch/pounds'. If
> you divide the above figures by 12 I think they will be in a more realistic
> range.
Did I say ft/lbs??? OOOOOOPPPPPPPSSS!!!!! I meant inch/pounds.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com> |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
Just to throw my 2 cents in...
I think that the RV-8 has the same appeal as the RV-6 and 6A have. =
Some people will be willing to sacrifice performance for relative =
comfort, companionship, and ease of handling (in the case of the =
-6A). If you want all out "total performance" then the RV-3 seems =
to be the choice. Some people want to take companions and want to =
fly a tandem. One of the problems with the RV-4 is that it is a =
bit small in back (actually, I don't know from personal =
experience, just from what I have heard). If you want a =
comfortable tandem with a more reasonable useful load then the =
RV-8 seems to fit the bill quite nicely. If the -8 has nearly the =
same flying qualities as the -4 and has a better CG range, then my =
opinion is that the loss of a few knots won't really matter that =
much. Look at the -6A. A few knots haven't stopped many people =
from building or flying one. As well, I have only met one -6A =
owner and he loved that way his plane flew.
I have a romantic interest in centerline seating. Very "fighter" =
like. At the flying club at NAS Memphis we had a couple of =
T-34A's. What a blast, even if they were pigs in the air. I =
couldn't tell. I doubt that the -8 would feel less spritely than =
the T-34. I would also like the option of taking someone with me. =
I have some pretty big friends that would probably exceed the CG =
limit in the RV-4.
tw
An opinionated wannabe that wishes his life and finances would =
support an airplane of any sort, but especially an RV-4/6/8 =
(sigh...).=
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
>>Folks -- some of you will recall I was looking for a tool vendor last week
>>(or the week before), and based on the recommendations of the listers, I went
>>Avery. I called them at 8.00 am, and by 10.00 the same day, they had the "RV
>>Tail Tool Kit" on its way. Everything arrived in perfect shape the next day.
>> The shipment was beautifully packed, and complete, with the exception of
>>two, small, currently non-critical items that will be shipped this week.
>>Without hesitation I recommend them, and will use them again. Thanx to Judy
>>and Bob, and to the listers that made the recommendation!
I've ordered (lots and lots) of tools from them and they have been 100%
consistent. I recommend them to anyone. (I just wish the darn things were
less expensive) :-)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>I have a question on corrosion. Several pieces of 2024 have
>some "spotchy" corrosion from sitting around to much and getting a little
>wet. I would say the no singe area is more than 1/4 in len or width.
>and is usually on the edge and not in the center etc.
>
>Is it safe to assume that if I can scotch brite the spots out and then
>prime the piece everything will be ok??
John,
Should be OK, but I think this would be an ideal application for
the full acid etch/alodine treatment before priming. The acid etch will
ensure that any microscopic-sized corrosion spots will get cleaned and
won't be able to 'grow' under any paint coat you may put on later.
I had the same problem after my garage flooded (only an inch or
two) after a winter rain, and the bottom of my shipping box got wet.
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
>
>Thanks in advance for the reply.
>
>
>-------sig cut here-------
>jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
>jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
>Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvrqa.cv.hp.com> |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
________________________________________________________________________________
Full-Name:
From: | Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com> |
Subject: | Re: RV-8 Article. |
:> Makes sense. All other things being equal (Which they won't be) with a
:> bigger RV8, the Weight/HP ratio will be worse. Of course, the RV8 was
:> designed so you could tuck that IO360 you couldn't cram into your RV6 under
:> the cowl. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:> --
:
: Not so. It's been done.
:
: Chris
Yes, it has been done. But just because you can do it doesn't mean it
is a good idea. In My Opinion, building an RV4 with more than 180 HP is
a lot like parachute jumping without a reserve chute. You can do it
many times with nothing bad happening. You can even point to your past
successes as proof of how safe it is. But the bottom line is that it is
not very safe because the airframe just wasn't designed for it.
The RV8, on the other hand, was designed for it. The price of the
stronger structure is more weight. The benefit is an airframe that can
handle the load without becoming overstressed and bending a spar in
flight, and without having control flutter at the bottom of a dive, and
without having the firewall rivets come loose after just a few hundred
loops and rolls.
--
Randy Stockberger
randys(at)cv.hp.com
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
________________________________________________________________________________
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(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
Subject: | Re: bolt torques |
I just assumed in/lbs so no problem. You don't need to divide the numbers
by anything, just change ft/lbs to in/lbs. Thank you all for the info.
Dan
On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, David A. Barnhart wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, John Ammeter wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote:
> > >
> >
> > Before you try to tighten an AN3 bolt to 20 to 25 foot/pounds I suggest you
> > look up the correct torque values again. Don't feel bad, I tried to tighten
> > my engine mount bolts to somewhere around 150 foot/pounds; after the steel
> > washers started to swage out from under the nut I called my local EAA Tech
> > Counselor. He delicately suggested that maybe they meant 'inch/pounds'. If
> > you divide the above figures by 12 I think they will be in a more realistic
> > range.
>
> Did I say ft/lbs??? OOOOOOPPPPPPPSSS!!!!! I meant inch/pounds.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave Barnhart
> rv-6 sn 23744
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Subject: | Re: Re[2]: RV-8 Article. |
> Hmmm, those of us building RV-4s think that if you want to take
> someone with you, the RV-4 is best.
Yes, because you can pretend they're not there! (I wanted a -3, my wife wanted
a -6) :)
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks |
>>Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put
>>one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked
>>ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did
>>not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every
>>once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back
>>(right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter
>>gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually
>>gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had
>>a problem after that.
>>Dan Boudro
>>RV-4 #3933
>>
>
>I've had this same problem. Haven't stripped any starters yet, luckily. I
>agree with Dan that two spst switches would solve the problem. If I was
>doin' it again I'd seriously think of using switches instead of that very
>expensive switch. If you do use the 'bendix' switch be sure to install the
>1/2" jumper on the back of the switch. If you don't, the right mag won't be
>grounded while starting.
Guys,
September 01, 1995 - September 22, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-aq