RV-Archive.digest.vol-aq

September 01, 1995 - September 22, 1995



      real bummer for any one of those reasons.  I know people have done it and
      produced good looking paint jobs.  At my experience level, I have trouble
      getting a good looking paint job on a stabilizer rib, much less on the
      underside of a wing or fuselage.  I'll shop around to make sure I have a
      competent and reasonably priced painter with plenty of aircraft experience
      and a good facility, then shell out the dough after I'm satisfied with
      some examples of his work.
      
      I remember one time when we were assigned a new painter in our squadron.
      He was an automotive painter assigned to fill an aircraft painter's job.
      He was eager.  He started out doing some paint trim on an aircraft canopy
      frame by sanding off the old paint, Alclad and all!  This is only a sample
      of one, mind you, but if I had to have an automotive painter paint my
      aircraft, I wouldn't let him out of my sight.  The last thing I need is a
      nice smooth paint job over my static port.
      
      Just one man's point of view.  Good luck to you all.
      
      Jack Abell
      RV-6A vert stab
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: AROCOMM(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 01, 1995
ultralight-flight(at)ms.uky.edu
Subject: List Info
Can someone send the information on how to subscribe to the list to: wapiya(at)jlc.net I've lost my info thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 02, 1995
Subject: painting
Very interesting! Couple of pointers. When you are using base/clear coat from du-pont, you should use a "regular" gun (not hvlp) for the clear coat if you want a good flow out and mirror finish such as is possible with single stage polyurethanes such as Imron or Alumigrip. Other wise it will look like the finish you see on today's cars. Go take a close look at a new Chevy's paint job. "Buffing it out" is easy to talk about! If you actually start to paint by 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning you can do it in your garage (or driveway) and not worry about bugs or dust! Good idea to wet the floor or driveway though. Clear coat or single stage paint requires reducer after noontime, unless you live in the North, or its wintertime! If you can do it in the driveway you don't even have to worry about fans, filters, etc. Paint your airplane in severals sessions, e.g. 1 wing (possibly 2) in one session, control surfaces in another, fuselage in another, etc. Connect your compressor pressure output to a 2 foot length of plastic plumbing pipe 3 or 4 inches in diameter (lay it on the floor) and then to a vertical 1 inch plastic pipe about a foot long, and then to your air hose. This will guarantee no water droplets coming out the nozzle of your gun on to your beautifil mirror finish. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 03, 1995
From: jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee)
Subject: Camas,WA airport closure (Grove Field)
FIRST my appologies to the world outside of the Portland, OR / Vancouver, WA area for broadcasting this to the rv-list. I lost the address to the pdx-rv-list(at)somewhere.something. Be that as it may.. Need help from Washington and Oregon pilots. The Port of Washougal, is making an effort to close Grove Field in Camas WA (east of the Evergreen airport in Vancouver). This comes on the heals of the closure of the Clark County Airport in Vancouver and there is already a 2-3 year waiting list to get a hanger in this area. During the Portland EAA Chapter 105 Breakfast saturday morning Sep 2nd, David Valaer stopped in to ask our help in this matter. He is trying to organize a show of support for the airport and handed out the following information: ++++++ There will be a meeting next wednesday, Sep 6 at 7:00 pm, at the Clark County Public Utility Division offices on 89 C Street in Washougal to discuss the possible closure of Grove Field. We must show our support for aviation! You can help in the following ways: 1. Attend the meeting wed Sep 6 at 7:00 pm. If you desire to FLY IN we will have a shuttle leaving Grove Field (Camas Airport) at 6:45 pm to take you to the meeting. 2. Write the Port of Camas-Washougal Commisioner's Office at 24 A Street, Washougal, WA, 98671 and explain your support of aviation. 3. If you have any other questions or suggestions call David Valaer at 503-257-3511 (work) or 360-834-9552 (ome). Let's all pitch in and don't allow this airport to die like Clark County did. Directions: ________________________________________________________________________________ toowards Camas. Drive through Camas past the paper mill. As you first enter Washougal you will see the boat marina on your right, take the next left on 2nd St. The Public Utility Division Offices are immediately on your left on the corner of 2nd and C St. +++++++++ Those of us in the immediate area and anyone else willing to travel are encouraged to attend this meeting. We all know that the Clark County Airport was (is) privately owned and there is not much we can do to stop the destruction of that facility. However, the Port of Camas-Washougal, owner of Grove Field, can be swayed by public opinion if it is strong enough. Thank you for your support Mike McGee Vancouver, WA jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ... SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..) TAIL: ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Camas,WA airport closure (Grove Field)
Date: Sep 03, 1995
I would contact AOPA ASAP. They have helped to ensure that a number of airports have remained open when they were threatened to close. If you don't have their number, call the AOPA hotline at 1-800-USA-AOPA 872-2672 Herman > FIRST my appologies to the world outside of the Portland, OR / Vancouver, WA > area for broadcasting this to the rv-list. I lost the address to the > pdx-rv-list(at)somewhere.something. Be that as it may.. > > Need help from Washington and Oregon pilots. > > The Port of Washougal, is making an effort to close Grove Field in > Camas WA (east of the Evergreen airport in Vancouver). This comes > on the heals of the closure of the Clark County Airport in > Vancouver and there is already a 2-3 year waiting list to get a > hanger in this area. > > During the Portland EAA Chapter 105 Breakfast saturday morning Sep > 2nd, David Valaer stopped in to ask our help in this matter. > He is trying to organize a show of support for the airport and > handed out the following information: > > ++++++ > > There will be a meeting next wednesday, Sep 6 at 7:00 pm, at the > Clark County Public Utility Division offices on 89 C Street in > Washougal to discuss the possible closure of Grove Field. > > We must show our support for aviation! You can help in the > following ways: > > 1. Attend the meeting wed Sep 6 at 7:00 pm. If you desire to > FLY IN we will have a shuttle leaving Grove Field (Camas Airport) > at 6:45 pm to take you to the meeting. > > 2. Write the Port of Camas-Washougal Commisioner's Office at > 24 A Street, Washougal, WA, 98671 and explain your support of aviation. > > 3. If you have any other questions or suggestions call David Valaer > at 503-257-3511 (work) or 360-834-9552 (ome). Let's all pitch in and > don't allow this airport to die like Clark County did. > > Directions: > >From I-205 North from Portland, take the Highway 14 east exit > toowards Camas. Drive through Camas past the paper mill. > As you first enter Washougal you will see the boat marina on your > right, take the next left on 2nd St. The Public Utility Division > Offices are immediately on your left on the corner of 2nd and C St. > > +++++++++ > > Those of us in the immediate area and anyone else willing to travel > are encouraged to attend this meeting. > > We all know that the Clark County Airport was (is) privately owned > and there is not much we can do to stop the destruction of that > facility. However, the Port of Camas-Washougal, owner of Grove Field, > can be swayed by public opinion if it is strong enough. > > Thank you for your support > > Mike McGee > Vancouver, WA > jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com > > Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com > RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ... > SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..) > TAIL: ---------- > > -- -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831 ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801 mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: kksys!showpg!jpl (Joe Larson)
Subject: Dimensions and walkout basements
Date: Sep 04, 1995
My wife and I are starting to house hunt. One of the features I'm looking for is a walkout basement where I can continue to build my RV-6A. Of course, I want to make sure I can get the airplane out of the basement. I would be able to get the wing panels out of any decent walkout. However, what about the fuselage? 1. At what point is the landing gear added? 2. How wide would the doorway need to be before adding the gear? How about after? Thanks. -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w) Showpage Software, Inc. 435 Ford Rd, Suite 315 St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 04, 1995
Subject: Re: 3/32" Flush Pop Rivets -Reply -Reply
>I'm not sure I know what a tube rivet is. I called B & F. They don't know >what a tube rivet is either. They said these are "Pop" brand rivets, and >they cross reference to Cherry (although they didn't know which one). >Here is how they describe them: > >AK32BS - Aluminum Countersunk Carbon Steel Mandrel, Breaking stem. >Grip Range = .031-.125 >Ultimate Shear = 125 lb. >Ultimate Tensile = 175 lb. > >Price per 100 = 16.60. >Add 15% for quantities < 100. > The MK319BS rivets that Van's sells are the same thing in Monel metal but are 7/64" instead of 3/32" and sell for $.11 each. I used them on my wing and they work beautifully. They are as smooth as any of the solid rivets. You can fill the hole with Microlight and West System Epoxy and when you paint the plane, you can't tell them from solid rivets. Jim Cone ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu (Jim McDonald)
Subject: Unsubscribe
Please remove me from the RV mailing list--I'm still getting some messages. Thanks, Jim McDonald jem(at)crl.nmsu.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: ELT's
What are the regs for ELT's in an experimnetal? Do I have to install one for the flight test period or can I wait until I want to carry passengers? Also, don't see much written about them so what's the consensus on the best value for these questionable pieces of ballast? Richard - starting paint prep... Richard E. Bibb TEL: (703) 478-9603 DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246 FORE Systems TEL: (301) 564-4404 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 FAX: (301) 564-4408 Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey )
Subject: Van's Homecoming Reflections, Info and Gossip
Just a note about Van's Homecoming. I went on Friday for the potluck. I didn't count, but there must have been close to 70 RV's there. What a beautiful sight. As I drove down the highway I looked up and saw six RV's getting ready to land. Seeing so many finished RV's is really an inspiration. It is nice to see a full range of personalities, from showroom IFR, Autopilot, three axis electric trim $30,000 panels and leather seats to basic VFR, no paint and foam pads. I was left feeling more than ever that this project is very personal. As long as no compromizes are made in building the basic airframe, the simplist plane will fly just as well as the the most polished. Enough gab and a little news and gossip. I saw Steve Barnards new wingtips and spoke to him about them. They are a bit bigger than stock and curve up. He has only had two installed for a week, so doesn't have any hard data yet. He hopes for some increase mph. His main observation to date is that they relly help tail wag in rough air. He says that even if this expected mph doesn't materialize (which he fully expects it will) the wing tips are worth it just for the increased stability in rough air. He expects to offer the tips around new years. He is also developing a convex wing root fairing which he hopes to have at the same time which he hopes will also increase mph and decrease stall speed. Steve also has a firewall fastbuild kit availible through Van's. All the parts for the firewall are made and all holes are drilled. All parts are numbered in sequence for assembly with new plans sheet. I don't know the cost, but he said it was about $500. I just got done riviting my firewall last night (not a fastbuild). Even though I think all builders should experienec putting together the firewall jigsaw puzzle with only the plans for help, if you have the money and want to save time and a lot of head scratching, I would think the kit would be worth it. I used his fast build wing kit and loved it. Steve and Theresa Barnard 916-676-5601. Next the RV-8. It is nice if you like tandem and want more mph and room. The only gossip I picked up was that the price may be simmilar to the 6-A. They have not priced it out so this gossip is just that----gossip. Another thing I saw was 8 gal tip tanks called Buster tanks and an RV-4 with retrac landing gear!!! One of the best parts of the day was sitting on the runway as most of the RV's left that night. For 45 minutes I watched as 3's, 4's, 6's and 6-A's taxied and took off into the sunset. What a rush!!!! Ross Mickey 6-A installing bulkheads into jig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: John.Saare(at)Eng.Sun.COM (John Saare)
Subject: Upholstery Matl'
Hi: Does anybody have a phone number for a supplier of aircraft upholstery materials? Not pre-made components, but only the materials... Stuff like: Fabric "Cardboard" backing 1/4" foam sheet I want materials that are appropriate for use in certificated aircraft (cuz it's going in a certificated plane...), i.e., no automotive stuff. Thanks! -- John Saare (1% RV-6) CHATTER: Why? Almost the very moment I drilled the first hole in my empennage kit, my "keep-me-flying-until-the-rv-is-built-plane" decided it wanted a LOT of work done to it. Some of that work includes re-upholstering the firewall (3M sound proofing, plus the stuff listed above.). The stuff that was on the firewall previously was hilariously flammable. It really was a "firewall". ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com>
Subject: RV Builders' Forum: Trip Report (long)
This past weekend, I attended the RV Builders' Forum at EAA chapter 486 in Fulton, NY. The event was excellent, with plenty of information being exchanged, and lots of good comaraderie and encouragement for builders at all levels. Chapter 486 did an amazing job accomodating maybe 140 builders that showed up, many of whom were not preregistered. What follows is a brief synopsis of what transpired, and what I learned. 8:45am: Tom Nolan, an RV builder and an engineer at Chicago Pneumatic, gave a lecture on riveting that was as entertaining as it was informative. He recommends using a 2X gun. His prefered bucking bar is a hunk of mild steel .5" x 1" x 2.25". This, he claims, can be maneuvered into all the tight areas between the wing-walk ribs, and is much more versatile than the commercially available ones. He also recommends that when working on your RV with your significant other, you let him/her DRIVE the rivets while you buck; that gives the other person the feeling that he/she is making a really important contribution, and not just 'holding' something. He thinks the real skill is in properly bucking the rivets. Regardless of what happens, compliment your partner constantly; this ensures that someone will always be there to help you with the 35,000 odd rivets that need to get driven. He mentioned that his wife is so proud of her riveting that she brings her sewing group down to see the weekly progress on the airplane. 9:45 Henry Hore, a builder from Canada, gave a talk on some of his home-made tools. He demonstrated a pneumatic cleco inserter/extractor that he made from an old automotive shock absorber. He showed off some of his bucking bars to which he glued strips 1/8" vinyl on either side of where the shop-end of the rivet goes. This combines the functions of a shop-head gauge and a bucker in one, and makes it impossible to overdrive a rivet. Another gadget he had was a die-grinder mandrel with a handle. This would give you two-handed control over the die grinder when you were cutting expensive materials--like your canopy. The coolest thing he had, though, was his rivet spacer. He marked off 1" increments on a strip of elastic waistband material. If he wants to space, say, 15 rivets over a given span on a wing rib, he simply tapes mark #1 of the elastic strip at the starting point, and stretches the elastic so that mark #15 is at the end point. Then he goes to town with the drill. The advantages are 1) it only costs you an old pair of jockey shorts; 2) it conforms nicely to the shape of curved surfaces; 3) it doesn't scratch aluminum like the traditional spacer can. 10:15 Ron Jones and Tom Wood gave some pointers on putting together your wings. It was mentioned that heating the skins prior to riveting produces nice results, but the skins must be painted some dark color so they pick up the heat. One builder uses a pair of ceramic space heaters placed on either side of the rib that is to be riveted. You don't have to heat the wing during drilling. 11:00 Steve Frey was there with his metal fuse jig, and demonstrated how it works by clecoing together some predrilled bulkheads and longerons into a properly aligned fuselage in about an hour. Very impressive. Of course, it'll take you and me weeks with all the drilling and deburring that he didn't have to do. He mentioned that he will be shipping his own fuse assembly manual to purchasers of his jig, which departs from Van's instructions in places where he feels he can save the builder some time and headaches. I neglected to pick up the price list, but I seem to recall that the fuse jig was a grand and change. He also has an empennage jig and wing jigs that look like they would be quite useful. All his stuff is high-quality, built from welded heavy-gauge steel. Steve himself is very personable, and knowledgable. 1:00 Fred Stucklen gave a talk on wiring, which I did not attend, cuz I was busy checking out the flight line. About 15 RV-4s, 6s, and 6As showed up, including Becki and George Orndorff's first airplane. There were some very nice airplanes there. Too little time to mention them all, but the Builder's Choice award went to N262JB, and RV-6 built by Jeff B.(?). This airplane was gorgeous! Every exterior detail was directed toward reducing drag, including his own special fairings at the wing roots that he glassed himself. The interior was nicely carpeted and upholstered, with a really clean panel. I was dumbfounded that he built it in 2 years and 2000 hours, until someone mentioned to me that Jeff's an A&P. 2:00 George Orndorff gave an informative talk about installing systems, the main message of which was to spend lots of time planning ahead about where you intend to route wires, hoses, etc. One helpful hint was to run plastic hose or conduit in which you put the wiring. He leaves a string inside the conduit for use some time down the road when he decides to pull the wires for some as-yet-unthought-of electrical accessory. He likes Terra radios because their customer support is so good and their warranty is 5 years. But he bemoans the length of the radios behind the panel. He cautioned to run the strobe wires on the other side of the fuse away from the antenna cables, and to use separate home runs to the battery from the strobe power pack. Also, only ground only one end of the strobe's shielded high-tension wires. 3:00 Ron Jones gave an extremely useful talk on painting; well really priming, as we never got to discuss his opinions on topcoats. He preferes PPG #40 over DuPont Variprime. The Variprime is *a lot* heavier, and goes on in a 3 mil coat, as compared to the #40, which covers in about 1 mil. Because the #40 is not self etching (it is a catalysed epoxy) you need to clean the metal really well beforehand. He recommends scrubbing the parts in a pure alkaline soap solution (PPG and Amway have such available) with a ScotchBrite red pad, and rinsing prior to priming. He claims you have to scrub the parts before priming with Variprime anyway, so you might as well us PPG #40 and save on the weight. In discussing primer application, he mentioned the DeVilbiss gravity-fed HVLP gun that you connect to your standard airhose. He raved about the Accuspray Optima HVLP gravity-fed gun as being the finest gun he has used. He shoots at 50 PSI. He has no experience with the turbine HVLP rigs. The remainder of the day was spent on talks about cabin interiors (Becki Orndorff), Tools (George Orndorff), and FAA Paperwork (Eddy Dick), which I did not attend. Perhaps other rv-listers who were there can fill in. The day concluded with a banquet at which were presented awards and door prizes. I never before attended an RV forum, so I have nothing to compare this one too, but I certainly found it to be a worthwhile event. Lots of great people and informative discussion. Chapter 486 deserves some real acknowledgement for pulling this together so well. -Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com 145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 UUCP: uunet!lanart!byablon Needham, MA 02194 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206 LANart: Difference by Design ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: ELT's
The ACK ELT gets my vote, primarily because it uses D-cells instead of the expensive proprietary batteries in most other ELTs. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Upholstery Matl'
> > Hi: > Does anybody have a phone number for a supplier of aircraft upholstery > materials? Not pre-made components, but only the materials... > > Stuff like: > > Fabric > "Cardboard" backing > 1/4" foam sheet > > I want materials that are appropriate for use in certificated aircraft > (cuz it's going in a certificated plane...), i.e., no automotive stuff. > > Thanks! -- John Saare (1% RV-6) > Automotive upholstery is required to be fire retardent these days. Chris Also if intrest; In article <413qdb$s5c@news.connectnet.com> you wrote: : Get a free copy by calling 619 749 0239 or fax: 619 749 6384 : or E-mail to bjnash(at)pdsig.com : Booklet is a how to manual covering materials and suppliers. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: homecoming & canopies
Date: Sep 05, 1995
Hi guys, It was great to bump into a few fellow listers at homecoming! There were so many fine pieces of aviation craftsmanship that I never got to see all of them. I did notice that about 98% of the -6's were equipped with a tilt up canopy. After talking with many people about the pros and cons, it seems that there is no right choice and it must be made purely by personal preference. Mike Graves RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Where to Build ???
Date: Sep 05, 1995
Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought out creative solutions. So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process (I have never even held a rivet gun). I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor. That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/ condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building off-site would not be as convenient, etc.). Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much appreciated! Thanks, Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
The noise of building an RV could get to be a bit much for condo dwellers. How committed are you to the project? Are you attached? Do you care about "having a life" or would it work for you to live and breathe your RV project for a while? The reason I ask is that if I were in your situation and didn't care much about social life/having friends/dates over, I'd rent the industrial space and LIVE in it for the duration of the project (local codes/rules permitting). It can be a pain to have a project somewhere else and try to go work on it -- I know, I tried. But living in a hangar isn't an option for me, being married and all.... Randall Henderson RV-6 > Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other > people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought > out creative solutions. > > So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process > (I have never even held a rivet gun). > > I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing > prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a > month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I > like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor. > > That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/ > condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or > buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building > off-site would not be as convenient, etc.). > > Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much > appreciated! > > Thanks, Rob. > > > * SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*. > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
I built my RV-6 in my basement/garage. I just asked my wife what she thought the noise from my riveting sounded like. At first she said that it wasn't a problem. Then I asked what if I had been building in a townhouse like where her folks live. That was a different story; she thinks that may cause a problem. I think that if you make real good friends with your immediate neighbors that what little actual riveting you do will not cause a problem. This, of course, assumes that you only rivet when the neighborhood is otherwise noisy. If you can enlist your neighbors in building the RV your problems are solved; no one calls about a loud party they are attending. At 10:30 PM 9/5/95 GMT, Rob Acker wrote: > > >Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other >people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought >out creative solutions. > >So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process >(I have never even held a rivet gun). > >I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing >prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a >month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I >like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor. > >That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/ >condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or >buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building >off-site would not be as convenient, etc.). > >Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much >appreciated! > >Thanks, Rob. > > > * SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*. > John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 05, 1995
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: ELT's
I'll vote for the ACK ELT; it's cheaper, lighter and uses D cell batterys. Also, since the batterys are good until the date stamped on the battery, you can get up to about four years on a set of batterys. With that in mind, why spend more for a heavier unit that need batterys every two years. >What are the regs for ELT's in an experimnetal? Do I have to install one >for the flight test period or can I wait until I want to carry passengers? > > >Also, don't see much written about them so what's the consensus on the best >value for these questionable pieces of ballast? > >Richard >- starting paint prep... > >Richard E. Bibb TEL: (703) 478-9603 >DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246 >FORE Systems TEL: (301) 564-4404 >6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 FAX: (301) 564-4408 >Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com > > John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
Rob: Having had several hangers and a garage for building space, I have to say that each has its advantages. Riveting does not make all that much noise. I find the air compressor the most bothersome. DO NOT get a direct drive Air Compressor. Make sure that it is a belt drive. A battery operated rechargeable drill can be used for most of the drilling. All the holes in my fuselage were drilled with my Dewalt drill. Riveting (like the other postings) should be done when the noise would be least bothersome. After 9:00 am and before 6:00 p.m. (or when ever your neighbors are not home.) I tried to keep my neighbors out of my garage. I did not want them to know what was in the garage. I would like my tools to last a lifetime. Not get up and walk away. It is safe at the airport. I leave my keys in my vehicle and my shop open. Nothing has walked away YET! I fine the airport a great place for may distractions and a lot of good advice. Be careful about who's advice you take for they may have less experience than you. Consider the source of all advice and weight it for its applicability in the particular situation. Some EAA chapters rent building space for builders in their chapter facility. In Upland, (Southern California) Cable EAA chapter 448 rents 300 square foot work spots in their chapter facility complete with air and electricity for $85 a month. The wings for an RV-6 are under construction in the shop now. Chapter 448 has had its members build over 20 RV of which about 10 are now flying. By building in an EAA chapter facility, your work is supervised by others (Technical counselors (2), DAR, IA, A&P's, and other RV builders.) Help is available when it is needed. Also, many time saving tips will be learn. (mostly by demonstration) Chapter 448 meets 8:00 p.m. the 2nd Friday of the month in their new chapter facility on the north side of Cable airport. Just look for the only blue hangar and you found it. Someone has been at the chapter facility every Saturday and Sunday since June. There are many RVs being built in So CA so good luck in what ever location that is chosen. Gary A. Sobek RV-6 20480 N157GS ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Where to Build ??? Date: 9/5/95 4:37 PM Here's a seemingly trivial question...however I can't help but think other people here have had the "where do I build this thing?" question and sought out creative solutions. So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process (I have never even held a rivet gun). I am ready to start building, and ready to buy a residence as well. Housing prices here in Southern California would force me into a "one paycheck a month" for a detached house situation, an option not very appealing in that I like to eat once in a while and it's overkill for this (currently) bachelor. That leaves me with the other options I came up with - a larger townhouse/ condo with a 2-car garage (would the neighbors immediately kick me out?) or buying a smaller condo and renting some industrial property to build (building off-site would not be as convenient, etc.). Anybody have any ideas? Comments? Other solutions? All input is very much appreciated! Thanks, Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * Life is uncertain ... so eat dessert *first*. ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
Date: Sep 06, 1995
ED>The noise of building an RV could get to be a bit much for condo ED>dwellers. ED>How committed are you to the project? Are you attached? Do you care ED>about "having a life" or would it work for you to live and breathe your ED>RV project for a while? ED>The reason I ask is that if I were in your situation and didn't care ED>much about social life/having friends/dates over, I'd rent the ED>industrial space and LIVE in it for the duration of the project (local ED>codes/rules permitting). It can be a pain to have a project somewhere ED>else and try to go work on it -- I know, I tried. But living in a ED>hangar isn't an option for me, being married and all.... ED>Randall Henderson ED>RV-6 Ed, Thanks for the reply. A friend at work suggested this as well. It may pose no problems 'cept for one...I *do* date quite a bit. So...where do I live you ask? I sleep with my plane . At least she would know where she stands if she continued dating me. If I can find a place that has an "office" built-in with shower/kitchen this could be a way to go. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * Microsoft Windows - proof that P.T. Barnum was correct. ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
Date: Sep 06, 1995
John Ammeter replied to Rob Acker: AM>I built my RV-6 in my basement/garage. I just asked my wife what she AM>thought the noise from my riveting sounded like. At first she said that it AM>wasn't a problem. Then I asked what if I had been building in a townhouse AM>like where her folks live. That was a different story; she thinks that may AM>cause a problem. Say thanks to your wife for me . Its good to get input like this from people who have experienced it. AM>I think that if you make real good friends with your immediate neighbors AM>that what little actual riveting you do will not cause a problem. This, of AM>course, assumes that you only rivet when the neighborhood is otherwise noisy Understand about the neighbors. A coworker has a complete woodworking shop in his townhouse garage (table saw, lathe, etc.). He lives in a complex with four units, knows his neighbors, and only uses the noisy stuff during daylight hours and has no problem. So the actual riveting process is not a "one right after another" process, i.e. you set one, check it, get ready for the next, etc.? There was also a thread here on pnuematic squeezers, could these effectively be used for a lot of the riveting, using the gun only when needed? AM>If you can enlist your neighbors in building the RV your problems are AM>solved; no one calls about a loud party they are attending. Hmmmm....I'll make sure I move into a place that has a lot of single women and see who's interested in "partying" . Thanks for all your input. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * Political Correctness is a Borg plot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Subject: Where to build?
I built my tail, wings and fuselage in a one car garage that was located in a condo complex. To make things even worse, my building time (during the week) was from 5:00am to 6:30am and 9:30pm to 11:00pm! On Saturdays I would work from 6:00am to 6 to 9:00pm. Guess what...nobody EVER complained! Here's why... First, my garage was insulated and it was surrounded by other garages. If I had an end unit it would have been louder. This also made it very warm with a space heater in the winter. Second, during the off-hours I kept the door closed. Third, I only sprayed primer when the lot was empty. If I had a big job, I would wait for everybody to go to work or I would come home early so I could spay safely. When the project was moved to the airport, 8 miles away, I went from 25 hours per week down to about 5 hours a week. It's just to hard to get away. The advantage to building a plane in a condo envornment is that you spend you time working on the plane and not cutting the grass, cleaning the pool, painting the house..... The other advantage; you'll meet EVERYBODY in the complex because everybody will stop by to see "that nut" building the plane in his/her garage. Lots of helpers too, I might add! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Primers yet again
> 1. I was ready to order Alumiprep and Alodyne, and in the > Aircraft Spruce catalog, there are TWO kinds: > Alumiprep No. 33 > Alodine No. 1001 > Improved Metal Prep #79 > Alodine #1201 (for use with #79) Use alodyne #1201 (visible) unless you're going to polish the skin.... I don't remember which of the alumipreps I've used, I just get the equivalent PPG product (I don't remember the number for that either) at Quality paints. > 2. I remember way back talk about stamping parts with > the id before priming, with some little letter/number > stamps from H.F. Is that a good idea? I have some of those stamps, and I use them where there are parts that will need to be matched for maintenance (e.g. aileron bellcrank). But for the ribs and any thinner parts like skins, I just use an engraver (LIGHTLY!) as it's faster and doesn't tend to dent the thinner parts like the stamps can if you're not careful. > > 3. I was gonna order some spay can zinc chromate, and > there's this other stuff called zinc oxide, that > is supposed to be as good but safer. Has this been > tried? I've wondered about this one myself, don't know the answer.... anyone? Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KHarrill(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Subject: Pilot's Operating Handbook
Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had developed a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe someone on the rv-list would. Any information would be appreciated. Ken Harrill RV - 6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Pro Seal Shelf Life
Okay, so I let my building schedule slip a bit during the summer (it was too hot to work in the garage, honest! :) I should be ready to do my second fuel tank later this month, but my remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. Should I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my old stuff? It's been stored at an average of perhaps 70-75 degrees (oops, I guess it wasn't all THAT hot in the garage this summer). How does this stuff deteriorate with age? Does it fail to cure or what? Does it extend the shelf life if you keep it in the fridge or freezer? Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Pro Seal Shelf Life
t! :) > > I should be ready to do my second fuel tank later this month, but my > remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I > received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. Should > I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my old stuff? > > It's been stored at an average of perhaps 70-75 degrees (oops, I guess it > wasn't all THAT hot in the garage this summer). How does this stuff > deteriorate with age? Does it fail to cure or what? Does it extend the > shelf life if you keep it in the fridge or freezer? > > Curt Reimer > > > I had the same problem with my build schedule. The proseal that I had started to get lumpy. It was 6&1/2 mos. old. I trashed the original batch and reordered. It was still two months before I started useing the new batch. I would suggest that you hold off on the order untill you are ready to start sealing the tank. Schedules have a way of slipping. If you read the lable on the black stuff, they call it "accelerator". I think this means that proseal will cure without the black stuff. It just takes longer (about 6 Mos.). BTW... I have just put the internal ribs in my right tank and it was no big deal. Somebody's suggestion of useing a artist's paint spatula was a great idea. I would reccomend this tool to anybody preparing to seal their tanks as a "must have" item. It makes applying the proseal easy. Chris Sealing the first fuel tank. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Old ProSeal
> my >remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I >received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. >Should I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my >old stuff? The rated shelf life of 890 ProSeal is 9 months. When you open the big can you may find that a tough film about 1/16" thick has formed on top. Peel this off and throw it away. A while back I did some testing on some ProSeal that was about 15 months old but had been stored in a refrigerator. It had the same consistency as the new stuff, hardened up at the same rate to the same stiffness, stuck just as tightly to clean aluminum, and did not soften a bit when soaked in autogas for a week. That is the ultimate test of whether or not you should use old stuff. FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Subject: Re: Pro Seal Shelf Life
Curt: UNOFFICIALLY the shelf life can be extended in the fridge / freezer. From experience, I have noticed that the out of date "stuff" will not have as long of pot life. Pot life is unaffectived by cold storage. I do not know what else happens with age. I know of Proseal that was stored in the freezer since new and used 3 years beyond the shelf life! I would not recommend doing this if one is not willing to suffer the consequences. I have repaired leaking RV-4 fuel tanks with "stuff" that was out of shelf life by 2 years. That was 1 1/2 years ago and about 30 flight hours with no fuel leaks. I suggest developing an opinion based on others experience. If old "stuff" is used and it leaks, would a repair be feasible? Gary A. Sobek RV-6 20480 N157GS ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Pro Seal Shelf Life Date: 9/6/95 3:44 PM Okay, so I let my building schedule slip a bit during the summer (it was too hot to work in the garage, honest! :) I should be ready to do my second fuel tank later this month, but my remaining 1/2 qt of Proseal (which was 2 months old already when I received it from Van's) will be a full 7 months old by that time. Should I just order another can now, or can I get away with using my old stuff? It's been stored at an average of perhaps 70-75 degrees (oops, I guess it wasn't all THAT hot in the garage this summer). How does this stuff deteriorate with age? Does it fail to cure or what? Does it extend the shelf life if you keep it in the fridge or freezer? Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: "Kevin E. Vap" <kvap(at)solar.sky.net>
-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- >Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had developed >a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe someone on the rv- list >would. >Any information would be appreciated. >Ken Harrill >RV - 6 This ad appears from time to time in the classified ads in the back of EAA Sport Aviation: "RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, -6A Flight Manual, 46 pages, $9.50; Maintenance Manual, 92 pages, $16. PP USA. CR Supply, Box 46, Manitou Springs, CO 80829." ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to Build
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Jack Abell replied to Rob Acker: RA>I agree with Gary that the compressor is a lot more obnoxious than RA>riveting. I have a 4.5 h.p. direct drive compressor, 125 p.s.i. plus. It RA>makes a terrible noise. I work in a garage attached to my house. I live Sounds like if I built an "insulation box" for the compressor (and shopped around for the quietest I can find) I would be OK in the townhouse. I just can't think of building off-site...I already spend 11.5 hours each day working/commuting...I have really been thinking of those "motivational problems" you had mentioned. RA>It sounds like you might live fairly close to me. Give me a call sometime. I live in South O.C., work in the South Bay. I will give you a call when needed..drop me a note at 75104,3077(at)compuserve.com if you need a "third hand" and don't mind me being a snoop to see if I really want to do this. Anyhow...it will wait till the RV-8 kits are available. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * I'm cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to build?
Date: Sep 06, 1995
AO>I built my tail, wings and fuselage in a one car garage that was located in AO>condo complex. To make things even worse, my building time (during the week AO>was from 5:00am to 6:30am and 9:30pm to 11:00pm! On Saturdays I would work AO>from 6:00am to 6 to 9:00pm. Guess what...nobody EVER complained! Here's AO>why... WOW...those hours and nobody complained? I think I have my mind pretty much made up towards the townhouse..like you I don't want to (or like) doing the lawn, gardening, and all that other stuff. AO>Third, I only sprayed primer when the lot was empty. If I had a big job, I AO>would wait for everybody to go to work or I would come home early so I could AO>spay safely. I didn't even take *priming* into consideration. That's why it's so great to have this group available...education! Thanks for your input. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most... ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Gary Sobek replied to Rob Acker: CC> Having had several hangers and a garage for building space, I have to CC> say that each has its advantages. Riveting does not make all that CC> much noise. I find the air compressor the most bothersome. DO NOT CC> get a direct drive Air Compressor. Make sure that it is a belt drive. Your advice is MUCH appreciated. I have been around quite a few air compressors...as long as the actual riveting process does not make more noise than that I think I might be OK in the townhouse. I have found a complex that has each garage towards the front of each unit, the garage only has two surfaces touching other rooms (MY master bedroom and MY kitchen). This may just be the ticket. CC> Some EAA chapters rent building space for builders in their chapter CC> facility. In Upland, (Southern California) Cable EAA chapter 448 CC> rents 300 square foot work spots in their chapter facility complete CC> with air and electricity for $85 a month. The wings for an RV-6 are $85? That's great. I belong to the Orange County chapter of EAA...will pursue that avenue. Thanks for the invite to the Upland chapter. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * A confident manner is important: Computers can sense this ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: fuel tanks
Date: Sep 06, 1995
Hi guys, I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of sorts. Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around the dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job. Mike Graves ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook
I saw an add in the back of Sport Aviation for one, price about $10, have no idea about how good it is. Bob Busick RV-6 On Wed, 6 Sep 1995 aol.com!KHarrill(at)matronics.com wrote: > Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had developed > a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe someone on the rv-list > would. > Any information would be appreciated. > > Ken Harrill > RV - 6 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: fuel tanks
> > Hi guys, > I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of > sorts. Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around > the dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job. > > Mike Graves > Tank bladders have their own set of problems. They tend to develop folds that retain water. The water will not come out during a fuel sampling. When you make a turn on the ground the water sloshes over the fold and into the fuel system and choaks the engine just as you are clearing the end of the runway. They also need to be replaced after several years of service. After working with pro-seal I can tell you that it is not as bad as some say. Keep lots of rags near and clean the tools with lacquer thinner as you work. And don't forget that artist's paint spatula. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 06, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: My mail problems now fixed
Guys, My e-mail server was down from 8-28 until to-day (9-6), and seems to have swallowed all mail over that time! If any of you sent me private e-mail in that period (or RV-list postings specifically directed to me), please re-send. .. thanks .. Gil Alexander "gil(at)rassp.hac.com" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Bottom skin clamp?
I must be missing something here but how do you clamp the bottom wing skin in position. The rib flanges are turned inward and the rear spar flange upward. Possibilities: Will masking tape hold? Do you drill two holes in the main spar flange and then accurately measure and drill them on the skin. Make "L" brackets to cleco on the the rear face of the spar and then drill and cleco in the aileron cutout area? Am I missing something here should it be this difficult? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook
I find this idea rather odd. Isn't flight testing supposed to determine operating limits and other information from an A/C? How can a commercial printer claim to have a flight manual when each plane, built by a different individual with different ideas, will more than likely operate differently? I also can't imagine needing a maintenance manual when an individual has invested a good amount of time building the thing. So, am I missing anything? - Alan On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Kevin E. Vap wrote: > > >Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had > >developed a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe > >someone on the rv-list would. > >Any information would be appreciated. > > This ad appears from time to time in the classified ads in the back of EAA > Sport Aviation: > > "RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, -6A Flight Manual, 46 pages, $9.50; Maintenance Manual, > 92 pages, $16. PP USA. CR Supply, Box 46, Manitou Springs, CO 80829." ________________________________________________________________________________
From: karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Karl)
Subject: RV6 or RV6A wanted
Date: Sep 07, 1995
FYI: I pulled this off rec.aviation.homebuilt. I have nothing to do with this person, so don't contact me. ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: brucew5540(at)aol.com (BruceW5540) Subject: RV-6 Date: 2 Sep 1995 21:02:26 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I am interested in purchasing a RV-6 or RV-6A, completed and flying. Please contact me at brucew5540(at)aol.com or 205-534-5433 Bruce Walker, P.O. Box 1707, Huntsville, Al. 35807. thanks, bruce ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Steve Frey's Jigs
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org>
I'm interested in knowing more about the jigs made and sold by Steve Frey, especially the fuselage jig. Does anyone have Steve's address or phone number? Thanks. Jack Abell RV-6A Empennage control surfaces ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Bottom skin clamp?
Text item: >I must be missing something here but how do >you clamp the bottom wing skin in position. If working by yourself start with four or five pieces of duct tape along the main spar. Then clamp to the spar at the skin uper corners for security. Clamp the skin sides at the trailing edge. Start drilling in the middle along the main spar and remove the tape. As you drill down the ribs in the upside-down triangle patern, loosen the clamps at the trailing edge and remove them as soon as the skin doesn't flop around too much. Let the drilling and clecoing process orient and hold the skin. Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: Bottom skin clamp? From: JIM SCHMIDT <mail.mei.com!JIM.SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com> Date: Thu, 07 Sep 1995 08:26:58 -0600 4.1) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Where to Build
I'm not sure if I'm doing a lot of things different than other people or what, but I have to say I make a LOT of noise a fair percentage of the time building my RV. One of my favorite tools is my nice, comfy, Peltor brand hearing protectors. I insulated my garage before I started and I'm sure my neighbors appreciate the fact as I often work LATE. Sources of noise include: Bandsaw (loud) Belt sander (medium) Table saw (high) Grinder/Scotch brite wheel (medium/loud) Die grinder or dremel tool w/cutoff wheel (loud) Die grinder w/scotch-brite wheel (medium) Dremel tool w/sander (medium) Air drill (medium/low) Rivet gun (loud) Avery arbor dimpler/hammer (medium/loud) Cussing (loud) Also I have a DeVilbiss model F430 permanenty lubricated air compressor -- a good unit but definitely NOT recommended for noise sensetive situations. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp
I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think. The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was 2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in storage since overhaul and has not been run. I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines? 1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6? 2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility? 3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be at least two more years before I get it into the air? 4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because of the break in period. How important is taxi testing? 5. What is a reasonable price for the engine with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or fittings? 6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine. I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly. Thanks Bob Busick RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to Build
Date: Sep 07, 1995
Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker: ED>Peltor brand hearing protectors. I insulated my garage before I started ED>and I'm sure my neighbors appreciate the fact as I often work LATE. I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)? ED>Cussing (loud) That will probably be my biggest noise-maker as well . Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * I'm just roadkill on the info super-highway... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Where to Build
> Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker: > > I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your > garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)? My garage is attached to the house. I don't believe there is any insulation between the garage and the house, but it is adjacent to the guest bedroom so it the noise doesn't really bother anyone in the house (unless we have guests of course!) I insulated with standard pink fiberglass, and covered it with the cheapest paneling I could find. I got a good deal, something like $1.50 a sheet, on some 1/8" thick closeout stuff with flowery wallpaper on it, and put it up with the back side out which was just unifinished wood, and it ended up looking pretty good. Sheetrock might be better though just because the lighter color would reflect more light -- I had to get a lot of flourescents in there to get adequate lighting. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Noideas(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 07, 1995
Subject: e-mail
Please remove my name from the rv- list. Thank you. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp (fwd)
Date: Sep 07, 1995
The E2D engine works fine in any of the RV's as far as I know. I have one in my RV4 and see a number of them on other RV's. The engine should have been put together with assembly lub on all the parts so it should be OK. To be sure, you could pull one jug and inspect the inside of the engine. The main concern would be rust on the cam lobes and lifters. If the cam was lub'd with an assembly lub that is heavy enough it should be OK as it should still be coated. The Chrome Cyl will not rust. There have been some AD's in the 11 yrs. The mags should be Slicks so not subject to the Bendix AD's. Make sure the Slick mags are not the old 'use 500 hours and throw away versions'. My E2D still had those mags and I replaced them with new slick's. Find out if you can what oil pump it has as there have been AD's on the oil pump. You can also check with Lyc as to what type of gears came in this engine if you have the serial number. If it has the Steel and Aluminum gear, it is OK for your use. The new AD now calls for replacing these with a Steel and a Carborized Steel gear set but I know of nothing wrong with te Steel and Aluminum gear set. You just don't want the Sintered Iron gears. You can replace the Oil pump without too much trouble if you have to or if you want to inspect it to be sure what you have (which is what I did). It just requires pulling the oil sump and the Acc case off the back. A carb will cost you $500.00 or more. I would probably replace the fuel pump as well due to the age on it. You can get rebuilt for $125 or so exchange. The starter ring assy is about $225.00. Be SURE to get the right one for your starter (149 tooth vs 122 tooth). Yours should be a 149 tooth but double check. You may want to buy it conditional on a test cell run in at a local OH shop. This would break in the Chrome cyl as well and ensure the engine is OK. The 160HP pistons are good from my viewpoint, but it means using 100LL and not auto fuel. I would put oil in it and turn it upside down to coat the cam lobes with fresh oil before you install/run it. I don't know about the OH shop. I expect this would be a good engine. If you can get it for no more than $8,000 it would be a good deal. With new mags, a OH carb, rebuilt fuel pump and starter ring gear it would be worth 9,500 to 10K. I would try to buy it for $6,000 as is. If they want more, I would make it conditional on pulling a jug and inspecting the inside and/or doing the test run. If you thing it was stored OK and not rusted I would push for the lower price and just store it till you need it and then maybe do the test run before installing it. Herman > From root Thu Sep 7 15:53:11 1995 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Precedence: bulk > Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 13:02:40 -0600 (MDT) > From: Robert Busick <nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com> > X-Sender: rbusick@dante > To: RV List > Subject: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp > Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950907124521.15285G-100000@dante> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think. > The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high > compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was > 2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by > Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in > storage since overhaul and has not been run. > > I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines? > > 1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6? > 2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility? > 3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be > at least two more years before I get it into the air? > 4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because > of the break in period. How important is taxi testing? > 5. What is a reasonable price for the engine > with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or > fittings? > 6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine. > > I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly. > Thanks > > Bob Busick > RV-6 > -- -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831 ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801 mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Where to Build
> Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker: > > I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your > garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)? One of the best and cheapest things to use to keep sound from going through a wall is gypsum board (also known as sheet rock, drywall, wallboard, etc). It is also pretty good at not reflecting sound waves. It absorbs the energy rather than passing it on. It is also fireproof. With a little practice with mud and paint you can even make it look really good. It is also easier to put up than panelling. Fiberglass behind it helps too. FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Where to Build
Date: Sep 08, 1995
Randall, Thanks for the info. Many of the townhouses I have looked at have standard cinderblocks as the "wall" between garages...I suspect this in itself would be good sound insulation. ED>just because the lighter color would reflect more light -- I had to get a ED>lot of flourescents in there to get adequate lighting. Good point...the garages described above are *DARK*. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re[3]: Where to Build
>> Randall Henderson replied to Rob Acker: >> >> I was thinking about this...what did you use to insulate? Is your >> garage stand-alone or townhouse-style (attached)? > >One of the best and cheapest things to use to keep sound from going through a >wall is gypsum board (also known as sheet rock, drywall, wallboard, etc). It >is >also pretty good at not reflecting sound waves. It absorbs the energy rather >than passing it on. It is also fireproof. With a little practice with mud and >paint you can even make it look really good. It is also easier to put up than >panelling. Fiberglass behind it helps too. Two layers of drywall is standard building practise for soundproofing. It's pretty cheap stuff, and all the work is in the finishing ... .... so nail up two layers with staggered joints if you add drywall. ..... Gil Alexander > >FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 07, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp
>I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think. >The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high >compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was >2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by >Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in >storage since overhaul and has not been run. > >I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines? > >1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6? >2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility? Yes. The owner came and talked to our EAA Chapter 40 a few months ago. They are one of the larger West Coast facilities, and have a reputation for good work. They do the overhauls on the towplanes at my local glider site, so I hope they are good :^) >3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be >at least two more years before I get it into the air? >4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because >of the break in period. How important is taxi testing? >5. What is a reasonable price for the engine > with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or >fittings? >6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine. > >I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly. >Thanks > >Bob Busick >RV-6 ... good luck ... Gil Alexander ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 08, 1995
Subject: Re: Dimensions and walkout basements
The gear is 6 feet 6 inches wide at the tread. You can turn the plane so as to get the nose gear and one main gear out of a 6 foot door and then maneuver the other gear out. Use the same technique for the tail with the elevators off. I built a "T" shaped dolly with large casters to put under the gear so that I can move my plane in any direction. That will make it easier to get out of my walk-out basement with my RV-6A. When I built my Sea Hawk, I had a 5 foot slider in the back wall. The wall was made of concrete. I hired a contractor to jack up the back of the house and jackhammer a 12 foot section of the back wall out, install a header and build a wall that could be removed in the future. I now have a set of French doors that give me 6 feet clear and if I need it, I can unbolt the other section of the wall and have 12 feet clear. How's that for a solution? Jim Cone ________________________________________________________________________________
From: broadwaymag(at)harrier.sasknet.sk.ca
Date: Sep 07, 1995
Subject: unsubscribe
Please Unsubscribe me from the list? Thanks ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: "Robert A. Patrias" <bobp(at)dexter.starfire.mn.org>
Subject: Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook
Unless I missed something in the earlier mail, I would think this Pilot's Operating Handbook would have alot of blank areas that would be filled in with specific information for your particular plane. An easy example is empty weight. But I would expect this handbook to have a particular layout and organization much like a POH from a commercial aircraft vendor. So, there would be some prewritten material and possibly some pictures that are common to all RV6's (for example). If this is true, then I would think such a POH would be useful for organizing and documenting the information for an RV. But, this is all pure speculation since I have not seen this product. As for a maintenance manual. Again I would expect a basic document where you fill in the appropriate blanks, provide the various schematics of electrical wiring, drawings of the pitot static system, etc. Again this is all pure speculation since I have not seen the product. As I get older, if I know something is documented then I don't worry about trying to remember every detail. Of course if I can't remember where I put the documentation, then that's another problem, :-). Bob Patrias Working on the tail (slowly) Wing Kit on order (ship date approaching quickly) On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, A. Reichert wrote: > > I find this idea rather odd. Isn't flight testing supposed to determine > operating limits and other information from an A/C? How can a commercial > printer claim to have a flight manual when each plane, built by a > different individual with different ideas, will more than likely operate > differently? > > I also can't imagine needing a maintenance manual when an individual has > invested a good amount of time building the thing. > > So, am I missing anything? > > - Alan > > On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Kevin E. Vap wrote: > > > > >Over the weekend a fellow RV builder asked if I knew anyone who had > > >developed a good POH for an RV-6. I do not, but I thought maybe > > >someone on the rv-list would. > > >Any information would be appreciated. > > > > This ad appears from time to time in the classified ads in the back of EAA > > Sport Aviation: > > > > "RV-3, RV-4, RV-6, -6A Flight Manual, 46 pages, $9.50; Maintenance Manual, > > 92 pages, $16. PP USA. CR Supply, Box 46, Manitou Springs, CO 80829." > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 08, 1995
Subject: Re: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp \ Taxi Tests
Bob: I agree with Herman Dierks posting on everything but his price should include logs and overhaul receipts. No log, lower the price. Your Question: 4. With chrome cylinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because of the break in period. How important is taxi testing? The overhaul shop I use charges $500 for a run-in in the test stand. The concern about taxi testing is valid. I also have the same question on taxi testing that you do. I know of 2 RV-4's near me that did not do taxi testing. The one was test flown by a test pilot for McDonnald Douglas (I do not remember his name.) His statement was that taxi testing is unsafe for airplane are made to fly. He said that one should get on the runway, increase power and speed to verify that all the flight controls work. If it does, go for it, if not abort. The problem with high power loaded aircraft is that you go from lots of right rudder to left rudder in a power increase, power decrease scenario. This goes against FAA AC recommendations but appears to be a position advocated by the younger test pilots. What comments do others have on taxi testing? I presently lean against extensive taxi testing. Can anyone provide arguments that justify taxi testing? Gary A. Sobek RV-6 20480 N157GS ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Lycoming O320-E2D/160 hp Date: 9/7/95 1:53 PM I have found the above engine for sale at a reasonable price I think. The engine came out of a Cessna 172 and was overhauled in 1984, with high compression pistons and a chrome cylinders. Total time on engine was 2023.5 and is now considered a 0 time engine. Overhaul was done by Pacific Contiental Engines INC from Van Nyus Ca. Engine has been in storage since overhaul and has not been run. I could use some advise from those of you who know about engines? 1. Will the E2D work well in an RV-6? 2. Is Pacific Contiental a reputable overhaul facility? 3. What effect does 11 years of storage have on the engine, it will be at least two more years before I get it into the air? 4. With chrome clyinders, I'm advised not to do ground taxi tests because of the break in period. How important is taxi testing? 5. What is a reasonable price for the engine with mags, fuel pump, starter, no flywheel, no carb, no oil lines or fittings? 6. Current owner knows very little of the history of the engine. I would greatly appreciate any commnets on the good the bad and the ugly. Thanks Bob Busick RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Dimensions and walkout basements
Date: Sep 08, 1995
I hired a > contractor to jack up the back of the house and jackhammer a 12 foot section > of the back wall out, install a header and build a wall that could be removed > in the future. I now have a set of French doors that give me 6 feet clear > and if I need it, I can unbolt the other section of the wall and have 12 feet > clear. How's that for a solution? > > Jim Cone > Pretty extreme Jim, but ahhhhhh..... The sacrifices me make for our airplanes... Mike Graves RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re[2]: Where to Build
Date: Sep 08, 1995
CC>One of the best and cheapest things to use to keep sound from going through CC>wall is gypsum board (also known as sheet rock, drywall, wallboard, etc). It CC>also pretty good at not reflecting sound waves. It absorbs the energy rather CC>than passing it on. It is also fireproof. With a little practice with mud an CC>paint you can even make it look really good. It is also easier to put up tha CC>panelling. Fiberglass behind it helps too. Thanks for the info. I think I will go with attaching fiberglass to the existing garage walls...and build another "wall" made of gypsum boards. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Where to Build ???
On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Rob Acker wrote: > So here goes...my concern is the NOISE generated during the riveting process > (I have never even held a rivet gun). One of the reasons I bought the pneumatic rivet squeezer is to cut down on the noise. You'll still need to use a rivet gun occasionally, such as when you are riveting the skins, but those times will be few. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Bottom skin clamp?
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, JIM SCHMIDT wrote: > I must be missing something here but how do > you clamp the bottom wing skin in position. I used C-clamps thru the lightning holes in the ribs. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Left wing is Done!
I've been away all week so I haven't had the chance to say so, but Labor Day weekend was a marathon riveting session at my house, and now the left (first) wing is essentially finished. A few comments: 1. The Avery long offset back rivet set didn't work. If you've seen it, you know it has a 'bend' in it about an inch back from the tip. The angle of that bend is not enough. The shaft would hit the rib flange, and it was not possible to get the face of it square on the shop head of the rivet. Fortunately, my helper was very experienced (much more experienced than I), and we riveted the top skins in the normal way and they came out absolutely beautiful. 2. Some time ago there was some discussion on this list about the difficulty of driving the screws that attach the fuel tank to the wing. I found that Boelube works great. I put a little of it on each screw before driving it with my Makita driver, and I didn't mess up a single one. So now I have one wing finished. And as it sits in my garage on a pair of padded sawhorses, I must admit that it looks magnificant :-) I've got both ailerons finished, both flaps about done. All the ribs for the right wing have been fluted, and all the small parts, like the aileron bellcrank and the rib rienforcement angles, are already fabricated. Hopefully, I can finish the right wing now in a little less time that the left one. (I started on the left wing at the beginning of April.) I've got about 300 hours in the wing kit so far. Oh, and I ordered the Navaid Devices autopilot last week. Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 Taking a deep breath and starting on the other wing ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: fenn(at)msg.ti.com (Brad Fennell)
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Please unsubscribe. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 08, 1995
Subject: Fuel Tank Dimpling
For those of you who have built your own tanks I have a couple of questions. I was reading some old messages and found a reference to giving a little extra dimpling squeeze in order that the rivets with pro-seal squeezing under them seat flush with the tank skin. I was looking through Cleavland Aircraft Tools cataloge and they offer a 3/32 dimple die set specifically for dimpling tanks. My questions are: 1. For those of you who used a standard 3/32 die set, did you squeeze a little bit extra, and how did the rivets seat? 2. For those of you who used a standard set and didn't squeeze a little bit extra how did the rivets seat? 3. And finally, for those of you who purchased a special set of 3/32 tank dies, were you satisfied with the results? chet razer in sparta, Il ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Dimpling
My questions are: > 2. For those of you who used a standard set and didn't squeeze a little bit > extra how did the rivets seat? > I dimled normally and the rivets are fine. I did use a scriber to press the rivets into the dimple and squeez the extra pro-seal out. Put the scriber in the little depression in the center of the rivet and press/wiggle the rivet. The pressure will squeez out any extra sealer. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KizzyG(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 08, 1995
Subject: unsubscribe please
I'm still receiving rv mail. I would like to unsubscribe, please. Thanks much. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Left wing is Done!
David Interesting report on your wing progress. You and I both received our wings at about the same time but we are using a different process. I had to take off about 7 weeks this summer on a business trip, so I am a little behind in the number of hours spent on the wings but I have been building both wings simultaneously, I have both in the jig and the top skins drilled on. I start the leading edge skins soon I hope. I'm following FKJ plans and all seems to be working out fine. Last night I riveted the bellcranks and their supports on one of the wings. I did follow Franks advise and took the number 9 and 10 spars out of the jig and riveted them on the bench. This was more work, but even out of the bench this was the most frustrating experience I've had with the entire project todate. There is absolutely no way I could have riveted the components while still in the wing jig. If any one has done this and done it well my congratulations and good job. For those of you who haven't gotten there yet... follow Franks advise! I have found that the learning curve while doing the wings has really made a difference. I have accomplished about 3x as much in the same time it took me to complete the HS spar a year ago. For those of you wondering does it get any easier, no it doesn't,... you get smarter and your skills get better. One question I haven't solved yet is how do you drill the tie down bracket to the predrilled spar reinforcing angle? An angle drill might work, but I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. For those of you that built your spars you probably think I'm nuts, but a prebuilt spar comes with the reinforcing angle riveted to the spar and you need to drill a hole that is about 1/4" from the base of the spar in the reinforcing angle, a normal drill held parallel to the spar can only drill about an inch from the base. I hope this progress report is of some help to others that have yet to get this far. Good luck and keep working at it. Bob Busick RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Left wing is Done!
David What is Boelube and where do you get it? Thanks Bob Busick RV-6 > > 2. Some time ago there was some discussion on this list about the > difficulty of driving the screws that attach the fuel tank to the wing. > I found that Boelube works great. I put a little of it on each screw > before driving it with my Makita driver, and I didn't mess up a single one. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu>
Subject: News Tidbits
RVator magazines were sent to press during the first week in September for those who are wondering when the next issue will be out. Depending on your location, it should arrive in the mail during the second or third week of September. And yes, there will be information about the RV-8. ------------ The Van's Aircraft Homecoming saw the largest show of people and airplanes yet. By Friday evening, Sunset "ATC" reported 100 different RV aircraft had arrived. I personally counted 93 on the field at one time. In addition, more than 400 people showed up for the barbecue. Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu Van's "WebManager" http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: unsubscribe -- PLEASE READ!!!!
REMINDER to anyone who thinks they might ever unsubscribe to this list and haven't read the FAQ: PLEASE SEND UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGES TO THE RV-LIST ADMINISTRATOR AND NOT TO THE WHOLE LIST! The rv-list administrator's address is rv-list-request(at)matronics.com < note the "-request" ^^^^^^^^ ! ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: Left wing is Done!
Date: Sep 09, 1995
>> Taking a deep breath and starting on the other wing << Go ahead Dave, you deserve it! Congrats on the progress, I hope to be posting messages like this as soon as the -8 kit becomes available. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 08, 1995
From: jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee)
Subject: Re: Re: Closing Camas,WA (Grove Field)
The Camas, WA airport (Grove Field) has been given a stay of execution. According to an article in the Oregonian, as a result of the support shown for the airport at the meeting held wednesday evening, the Port of Camas-Washougal will keep the airport in operation and assemble a committee to get a handle on the alleged liability/profit problem. The meeting was attended by the FAA, Washington Aeronautics, and enough people in the room that the fire marshall said enough, all of whom supported the facility. Once again, thank you for your support. Mike McGee Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. shop almost ready ... SHOP: ++++++---- (It's full of junk from movin' in ..mnph..) TAIL: ---------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 09, 1995
From: meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan)
Subject: Subject Headings
I have noticed over the last few months that I am having to sort and select msgs I read on our list due to lack of time. This is a problem for those of us who are quite a ways done the building path and have less interest in beginner type information when we are very busy with work and honey do's. I also find that a msg gets replied to many times, but the subject may change completely. When sifting through 20 or 30 msgs deciding which to read that might help you will overlook some good one. My suggestion is that when the subject does change we revise the SUBJECT header to reflect added or new topics. Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu Whidbey RV-ators 721 N. Palisades Coupeville, WA 98239 (Working on Fuselage - RV6A) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886)
Date: Sep 09, 1995
Subject: RV-LIST Updates...
Hello Everyone, With last nights update there are now 340 active members on the RV-LIST! I returned from vacation to over 130 rv-list-request messages - some people are very impatient when they don't get added to the list right away! :-) I had setup a "vacation" program on the rv-list-request mail box, but for some reason it didn't work. I messed around with it some more last night but still couldn't get it to work. Anyway, I will continue to work on setting up an automated message inresponse to messages sent to the rv-list-request address so people get a warm-fuzzy about their request. Oh, and yes yes, I know that I should run this list with some sort of "automated registration-deregistration" program, but I find that there are too many requests made that wouldn't be handled correctly with that type of interface. I also like to have a real name associated with each of the email addresses - more friendly that way - and the automated programs won't do that. So, I guess I'm doomed to process it by hand... :-) You guys are worth it! Matt Dralle RV-LIST Administrator Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 11:10:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> Subject: modem/win95 conflict I know this isn't directly related to RV's, but it is related to accessing the RV-list. I have been forced to boot into win3.1 to access my e-mail, because of a conflict between win95 and my modem. If any of you have a similiar proplem, there is help in the Modemvendors forum on Compuserve. Mine was specifically a Zoom modem situation, which I resolved after perusing some messages in the forum from MANY people with the same problem. It is now MUCH easier to get my mail from the RVlist. Thanks for letting me stray for a momemt guys, heck, now I can stop screwing around with this computer and get back to work on those fuel tanks. Oh goody... Jeff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JPallist(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 09, 1995
Subject: subscribe: jpallist(at)aol.com
Please add me to your RV server. Thanks, John Pallister (JPallist(at)aol.com) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Intro to group
Hi All, At Matt Dralle's request, I will intro myself to the group. Bill Costello RV-6, #23664, working on empennage, wing kit expected 10/95 Building in basement, except fuselage ??? 9635 S Damen Ave Chicago, IL 60643 312-445-1246 I VERY much appreciate all the ideas from you guys and gals. If one or two would respond, perhaps to my E-Mail addr directly, so I know this "took", it would help. Bill bcos(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CFarthing(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 10, 1995
Subject: Band saw
Hi Everyone, Still tooling up for the great adventure while trying to decide which RV I'm going to build. Bought the preview plans for both the -4 & -6. I like the -4 better but feel the -6 has better outside support with the FJK instructions and the Orndorff tapes. Of course a lot of the information crosses over but still can't decide. Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job? Was planing on getting one from Harbor Freight but just read some horror stories on long waits for free shipping. Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use a band saw for? Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a table saw? Any and all comments welcome. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CFarthing(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 10, 1995
Subject: Band saw
Hi Everyone, Still tooling up for the great adventure while trying to decide which RV I'm going to build. Bought the preview plans for both the -4 & -6. I like the -4 better but feel the -6 has better outside support with the FJK instructions and the Orndorff tapes. Of course a lot of the information crosses over but still can't decide. Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job? Was planing on getting one from Harbor Freight but just read some horror stories on long waits for free shipping. Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use a band saw for? Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a table saw? Any and all comments welcome. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org>
Date: Sep 09, 1995
Subject: MN Wing RV Picnic
Fellow Listers: Just an invitation to any and all RV builders and wannabe's in the Upper Midwest that the MN Wing will be having their Annual Fly-In and Pig Roast on Saturday, Sept 23 begining at noon. Location is the Sky Harbor Airpark in Webster, MN (about 25 miles south of Minneapolis and about 7 miles SW of the Farmington VOR (FGT)). This is our big family event and last year we saw over 150 people and around 15 RV's. If you can bring a salad or dessert to share. Sky Harbor is a residential airpark with about half a dozen RVs under construction on the field. Spam cans and other "non-RV" flying machines are welcome as well. Monitor 122.9 in the pattern. For directions or questions, drop me an E-mail or call at 715-386-1239. Doug ... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Band saw
The Sears band saw you mentioned will work just fine for most stuff. SInce I ordered the Phlogiston spar, I can't speak to it's suitability for tapering the spar flanges. I have a similar band saw, tho it's not variable speed. I use it A LOT. You'll be cutting a lot of parts (for example all those rib reinforcement angles are cust from aluminum angle stock), and I cannot imagine doing it without a small bandsaw. And a metal-cutting bandsaw is not needed either. The aluminum is soft enough that it cuts just fine with a woodworking bandsaw and a woodworking blade. If you were cutting a lot of steel parts, then you'd need a metalworking bandsaw. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrooksRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 10, 1995
Subject: Van's Homepage inaccessible
Anyone know why I can't access Van's homepage on the Web? I know it was to be a temporary site. Did it move?? Is anyone else able to access it? (maybe it's my web browser having difficulty). Chris Brooks RV-6 Building the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BrooksRV6(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 10, 1995
Subject: Low fuel warning switches
The low fuel level warning switches offered by Aircraft Spruce for $35.80 can be purchased from the Madison Co. for $22.00. They are model # M7700. They're phone number is (202) 488-4477. Chris Brooks RV-6 Building the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1995
From: Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu>
Subject: Re: Van's Homepage inaccessible
It works for me at 12:30pm Pacific Time Sunday. The server could have been down for a few minutes. If the site does move, don't worry, there will be a page telling where it has gone to. I would suggest trying it a little later, if still no luck, write me at address below. > Anyone know why I can't access Van's homepage on the Web? I know it was to > be a temporary site. Did it move?? Is anyone else able to access it? (maybe > it's my web browser having difficulty). > Chris Brooks Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu Van's "WebManager" http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: flap interference
After completing the left flap, I discovered that I cannot get full up travel on it. The interference point is where the flap brace steps up onto the W407B doubler. The front edge of the flap top skin contacts the flap brace at that point. I suspect that the ccause of this problem is that the upper flap skin is about 3/32" 'forward' from its intended position. (after drilling the top-flap-skin-to-flap-spar rivet holes, I noticed that at the inboard end, the rivet line is about 3/32" forward of the flap spar flange's centerline. My proposed 'fix' is to notch the inboard flap skin by about 1/8 inch at the point of interference. Comments or better ideas, anyone? Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Rod diam for bending trailing edges
Please give me some help! I used a 1/8 inch rod to bend the training edge of the rudder- (RV-6)-(as we are told in "the tapes"). Another builder friend of mine swears it should be a 3/16 inch. And it LOOKS like the constr manual calls for a 3/16 inch for the elevator trailing edge (when talking of the cardboard model for the trim tab), but it is not totally clear. Help. Which is correct? Which did you guys use? Does it make a big difference ?!? Bill Costello Trying to finish tail before wing kit arrives ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 10, 1995
From: Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org>
Subject: Re: Band saw
Get the band saw, now not later. I got mine later and kicked myself for not getting it at first. You will be surprised how much you will us it. I got the Sears and have been very pleased with it. With Sears you know what you are getting, and what to do with it if something falls off. I can't say the same for Harbor Freight. A lot of their stuff is cheaper, but so were Yugos. A lot of the guys on the rv-list used a radial saw with some special blade for cutting metal. Band saw would work too, but be careful, and remember, you can take more metal off, but can't add any! Vixen file is great for taking out any scratches and gouges incurred during cutting the tapers. Jeff RV-4 FT. Collins, Co. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
Subject: Re: Bottom skin clamp?
Hi Jim, I used cloth book binding tape. This stuff sticks amazingly well, don't leave it on for months at a time as it will leave a sticky residue. Regards John Morrissey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Bottom skin clamp? Date: 9/7/95 8:26 AM I must be missing something here but how do you clamp the bottom wing skin in position. The rib flanges are turned inward and the rear spar flange upward. Possibilities: Will masking tape hold? Do you drill two holes in the main spar flange and then accurately measure and drill them on the skin. Make "L" brackets to cleco on the the rear face of the spar and then drill and cleco in the aileron cutout area? Am I missing something here should it be this difficult? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Left wing is Done!
> Last night I riveted the bellcranks and their supports on one of >the wings. I did follow Franks advise and took the number 9 and 10 spars >out of the jig and riveted them on the bench. This was more work, but >even out of the bench this was the most frustrating experience I've had >with the entire project todate. There is absolutely no way I could have >riveted the components while still in the wing jig. If any one has done >this and done it well my congratulations and good job. For those of you >who haven't gotten there yet... follow Franks advise! If you have really gotten the hang of driving 1/8" universal head rivets and have an offset set that will reach these rivets, you should try doing them in the wing since everything is held rather firmly by the wing structure. FKJ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Apologies to the Listers (REAL CHATTER)
Fellow Builders and lurkers, About a month or two ago, I posted a series of messages onto this list expressing my frustration and in the process offended a great deal if not the entire readership of this list. This is an attempt to extend my sincere apologies to those who were/are offended. I am apologizing for the strong remarks made publicly and to assure the readers that there will be no re-occurrence. An individual was verbally attacked in this process and if I may... Jerry: I'm truly sorry for the off-colored comments about you. Not only were they inappropriate, they were farthest from the truth. You have selflessly extended yourself to help out others on numerous occassions and I too was fortunate enough to have received your support and encouragements early on in my project. Please accept this apology as a token of my regrets and of my sincere desire to amend for any harm done. Again, my sincere apologies to the entire readership. Unlike George Bush's famous:"No more taxes!" I say:"Never again!!" -- Remi "This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds..." :-) Just kidding :-) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Re: Band saw
The Black/Decker "Factory Outlet Stores" have a 10" band saw, fixed speed, for about $120 (their normal discount price). They also carry a selection of metal & wood cutting blades for this saw (about $7/ea.). My brother thought this saw was of higher quality than the Sears 10" saws. For those builders in Northern Calif., a B/D store is located just across the highway from the Nut Tree Airport (Vacaville, CA). If you fly-in (I hate to drive anywhere but the airport) , just walk across the freeway via the overpass near the pilot shop, turn north on the frontage road for about 200 yds, big orange sign on the left. A friend told me a radial arm saw with a carbide wood blade will also do a good job, if you do not cut too fast. It will leave a fine cut line, that will require little cleanup work. He has much expertise in this area, so this might be worth a test at least. Dick Slavens reviewing RV-6 plans, buying tools, waiting for RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools
Folks -- first of all, a small item of business...I have permanently changed my email address from 74267.3003(at)compuserve.com to terence_gannon(at)msn.com. Yes, I have bought the MSN hype all the way and I'm switching over! Please direct all future correspondence to the latter, rather than the former, although the former will still work for a while, at least. Back to the matter at hand. I'm looking to purchase one of the 'starter tool kits' and the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic. Thanx! Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Attending Sept. Builders' Conference" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Band saw
> > Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item > #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question > is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job? > > Was planing on getting one from Harbor Freight but just > read some horror stories on long waits for free shipping. > It deoesn't take much of a band saw to do what is needed to build an RV. My saw is an old (40s vintage) Wards model. It works just fine. > Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use > a band saw for? > Lots of stuff, like cutting the notches in the wing ribs... well Van does that for you now. Then there is the cutting out of the fuel tank access plates. Ooops, Van does that now too. How about the fuel tank brackets at the root of the wing? Does Van make those now? I don't know what is included in the new kits, but I'm sure you will fins many uses for a band saw. > Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar > flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff > wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a > table saw? > > Any and all comments welcome. > Useing a "cut-off" wheel might heat the flange material to much and change the heat treatment. This is just a guess. I have cut smaller sections of aluminum on my RA saw. I,m not sure what the thick material would cut like. Chris Sealing of the first tank is almost complete. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Steve Frey's Jigs
On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Jack Abell wrote: > I'm interested in knowing more about the jigs made and sold by Steve Frey, > especially the fuselage jig. Does anyone have Steve's address or phone > number? > > Thanks. > > Jack Abell > RV-6A > Empennage control surfaces > Stephen R. Frey 316 Turner Lane Westchester, PA 19380 (215) 692-3553 Synopsis of Frey's brochure on Fuselage Jig: =========================================== - Utilizes Inverted Bed concept as outlined in Van's Construction Manual. - Incorporates the exclusive "Birdcage" fixture to accurately setup and hold the wing carry through bulkheads for proper angle of incidence. - Jig hinges and fold approximately in half, producing a freight envelope of about 4x4x8 feet. - All steel construction, four full swivel casters, six steel threaded lugs to level the bed with a carpenter's level. - Firewall posts adjustable and levelable, - Steel transverse stops: position & hold bullkheads on stations. - Longeron clamps on transverse stops: position and hold longerons. The Bottom Line: RATES ARE FROM APRIL 1994 =============== - Rental Option - Prepaid minimum rental of 3 months, crating, shipping, insurance and handling. - Purchase Option - Prepaid full purchase price, crating, shipping, insurance and handling - Fuselage jig rates- Crating charge: Rental $ 30.00 Purchase $ 45.00 Monthly rental: RV-6/6A $ 150.00 Full purchase: RV-6/6A $1350.00 Personal Impression: (mumble jumble..OR CHATTER.) =================== Having seen the steel jig, rugged and truthfully advertised, after talks with a couple of RV builders with completed projects, and experiences drawn from the use of wood jigging for the empennage and currently the wing section, I believe the purchase or rental of a steel jig is overkill. But... variety is the spice of life. Hope this helps, -- Remi P.S. Whatever happened to those "Who We Are" posts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The sound of a siren, although obnoxious & offensive, is better heard... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Mazda RV4 update 2
I just sent a note from Tracy Crook which he posted on Compuserve. I thought the group would be interested in his progress with his Mazda Rotary powered RV4. If you get Kitplanes, there was an article (part 1) on his plane this month. Part 2 next month. This was posted with his permission. P.s. my mail editor failed to edit the first note forcing me to send these seperately, sorry. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Mazda RV4 update
#: 882207 S12/Homebuilt Corner [AVSIG] 05-Sep-95 14:19:29 Sb: Mazda RV-4 100hrs Fm: Tracy Crook 71175,606 The Mazda rotary on my RV-4 passed the 100 hour mark shortly after my return from Oshkosh. Just finished a detailed inspection of engine and the Ross Aero gear drive and thought I'd take this oportunity to update all those following the progress. The best news is that there is very little news! The hum from under the cowl has been so consistant and confidence inspiring that I've decided to fly it to Copperstate Fly-In in Oct. Only two items have required attention so far. The rear oil seal on the gear drive started to leak at 15 hrs. and had to be replaced. That may have been my fault as I think I damaged it during installation. The replacement seal hasn't leaked a drop. The other thing was a mysterious oil pressure drop that started during the Oshkosh trip. I noticed the pressure was about 5 lbs lower after each takeoff until it bottomed out at 37 psi which is about half of normal. The engine continued to run fine but it made me extreamly nervous as you might expect. I had set 35 psi as the point where I would abort the flight. I was preparing to pull the engine and install my spare when I decided to call some rotary racing people I know in California. I started by saying I had overhauled the engine and the oil pressure had been running at 75 psi for 80 hrs. At this point the guy interrupted me and said, "and now your pressure has dropped to around 35, right?". He had oviously heard this story before. Turns out that an O-ring between the front cover and the engine frequently blows and bleads off a lot of oil pressure. The guy also knew the parts and proceedure to use to prevent it from happening again. Also said that unless the engine was run flat out that the low oil pressure did not result in any internal damage. I flew at only 38% power during the trip so I decided to just fix the O-ring instead of the engine swap. Pressure came back to normal afterwards. The compression on both rotors continues to rise as the new rotor seals seat in. Compression is an even better indicator of over-all engine health in a rotary than in a recip. so all looks well. I completely disassembled the gear drive and was happy to see no signs of wear. The contact patch on all gears was polished smooth and shiny. End play on the planet gears was same as when new. The damper assembly showes no sign of wear so I assume that tortional vibration is not going to be a problem. As I continue to tweak and tune the engine, performance continues to improve slightly. Top speed has now touched 204 mph and this was on an 87 degree day with density altitude around 4500 feet. Can't wait to see what it does with honest to god Standard Conditions. :) Part one of the Mazda RV-4 article finally made it to print in the Oct. issue of Kitplanes. Lots more details there than was practical to post here on the Forum. Hope you enjoy. Regards to all.. Tracy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rod diam for bending trailing edges
On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, William Costello wrote: > I used a 1/8 inch rod to bend the training edge of the rudder- > (RV-6)-(as we are told in "the tapes"). Another builder friend of mine > swears it should be a 3/16 inch. And it LOOKS like the constr manual > calls for a 3/16 inch for the elevator trailing edge (when talking of > the cardboard model for the trim tab), but it is not totally clear. The inside diameter of the bend is about 1/8, and the outside diameter of the bend is about 3/16. I used 1/8-inch dowel rod, and it was a perfect fit. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: Donald Bohman <dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
something has gone wrong. i must have been removed from the list as i have not received any mail for aprox. 2 week.please ad my name to the list once again. thank you. dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Left wing is Done!
Bob Busick said: > One question I haven't solved yet is how do you drill the tie > down bracket to the predrilled spar reinforcing angle? An angle drill > might work, but I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. For those of > you that built your spars you probably think I'm nuts, but a prebuilt > spar comes with the reinforcing angle riveted to the spar and you need to > drill a hole that is about 1/4" from the base of the spar in the > reinforcing angle, a normal drill held parallel to the spar can only > drill about an inch from the base. Yeah that's one problem with the pre-built. If you build your spar yourself you can drill the angle to the spar but not rivet it, then clamp the tie-down to the angle and remove the whole thing and drill it on the bench. BUT -- that doesn't answer Bob's question, does it! Actually even though I built my own spar and did the above, I later decided to move the tie-down to the next outboard spreader angle to avoid interference with the pitot-tube, so I had to retro-drill. I used a snake drill attachment and it worked ok (another neat tool I recommend!). I'm not sure how else you could do it. If you can't find one to borrow, the only other thing I can think of is to drill out the rivets holding the angle to the spar. That probably wouldn't be that big a deal but I suppose you want to avoid it even so. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Band saw
>The Black/Decker "Factory Outlet Stores" have a 10" band saw, fixed speed, >for about $120 (their normal discount price). They also carry a selection of >metal & wood cutting blades for this saw (about $7/ea.). My brother thought >this saw was of higher quality than the Sears 10" saws. I have been using a small, fixed-speed 10 inch Delta band saw for the last 5 years (I'm a slow builder!) and it works fine with wood cutting blades as previously mentioned. Use the fine toothed blades. It's price is in the $150 range though. Lot's of other good bits and pieces for the workshop in this Factory Outlet Store ... worth a stop if you see one. > >For those builders in Northern Calif., a B/D store is located just across the >highway from the Nut Tree Airport (Vacaville, CA). For S. Californians, there's one in Lenwood just S. of Barstow. A good place to stop on the way to Vegas or the Colorado river :^) >If you fly-in (I hate to **** snip **** > >Dick Slavens reviewing RV-6 plans, buying tools, waiting for RV-8 .. Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... riveted on top, aft turtledeck skin this weekend ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools
> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 04:37:00 UT > From: "Terence Gannon" <msn.com!Terence_Gannon(at)matronics.com> > To: "'RV-LIST'" > Subject: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools > > Folks -- first of all, a small item of business...I have permanently changed > my email address from 74267.3003(at)compuserve.com to terence_gannon(at)msn.com. > I'm looking to purchase one of the 'starter tool kits' and > the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob > talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments > about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic. I have a 2x "clone" from avery. No complaints. I've never used an "original" Chicago Pneumatic though, so I can't compare the two. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: flap interference
> After completing the left flap, I discovered that I cannot get full up > travel on it. The interference point is where the flap brace steps up > onto the W407B doubler. The front edge of the flap top skin contacts the > flap brace at that point. > I think this is normal. I remembered seeing this on other RVs so when I discovered it I said "aha! so _that's_ why they did that!" and just went ahead and did like they did: cut the front corner off of the leading edge at that end of the flap, from about about 1/2" in at the forward flange, back to nothing about 1" back. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Chicago Pneumatics gun
I don't think Bob would steer you wrong. If you don't like it, I'm sure some arrangements could be made. One other thing. I bought a Chicago Pneumatics air drill and it convinced me to go back to my electric drill. It is just not a very good tool. The "teasing" trigger is so sensitive that it is essentially useless and the drill feels rough even when you turn it by hand. Also, it's made in Japan. I don't mind that but I would prefer to see "Tokyo Pneumatics" on the handle. I thougt I was buying a top of the line US made tool. Anyway, do get the kit from Avery. I can't tell you how many work sessions I've essentially wasted because I didn't have the right tool available. Shipping gets expensive when you call Bob once a week for one tool at a time.(1/2g) John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Subject: RV Interest Group
I'm interested in this news group. Please mail me info. Thanks. BFG / RV6. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: Steve Frey's Jigs (fwd)
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Remi Khu wrote: > Synopsis of Frey's brochure on Fuselage Jig: [deleted] > Personal Impression: (mumble jumble..OR CHATTER.) > =================== [more deleted] > wing section, I believe the purchase or rental of a steel jig is overkill. Nice summary. If you're impressed by hardware, they're neat, but consider all the airplanes that were build without them, and what an extra $1K can do for your panel, finish, interior, etc. Even if you don't want to buy or rent one of these monsters though, at least take a look at one if you can. I got some good ideas for my (wood) jigs by looking at Frey's (and Dan Batchelor's) jigs. Dave Hyde nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Terence Gannon wrote: > Back to the > matter at hand. I'm looking to purchase one of the 'starter tool kits' and > the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob > talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments > about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic. Avery's rivet guns are first-rate. You won't go wring by buying one. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Frey's Jigs
I too, looked at Steve Frey's jigs. I think they are nice, but when I saw the price I fainted dead. Boy, for $1350, I think I could construct one heck of a jig! But constructing a wooden jig is not as easy as it used to be. The phrase "Kiln Dried" seems to no longer be in the vocabulary of most sources of lumber. I know that the Lumber at my local Home Depot is very fresh off the tree. I have some that has sat around for a few months, and I have seen curly french fries that are straighter ;-) Our local EAA tech Counselor has told me that one of our local builders here is using something called "unistrut" (I think). He recommended it as an inexpensive way to build a good fuselage jig. The other alternative, I think is to use aluminum channel, aluminum angle, or square steel tubing for the two long members of the jig (the ones that run the entire length of the jig, one on each side. There is a shop here that sells Angle, Channel, and square tubing at pretty reasonable prices. It appears to me that the only requirement for the fuselage jig is to keep the bulkhead attach points from moving either vertically or longitudenally. The rest of the jig can warp like crazy and it won't matter, right? Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Band saw (fwd)
Date: Sep 11, 1995
I have been using an older Sears model. This one has cast metal covers instead of the newer plastic parts. Anyway, just use a 'metal cutting' blade in the band saw. This will work just fine on Aluminum. You do not need the expensive speed reduction unit they use to sell for slowing the unit down to cut metal (steel). You may wear out the blade a little faster but you will probably need 2 blades to do the entire project. I used mine quite a bit. However, I had the prebuilt wing spars so I did not have to taper the spar doublers so I don't know how the band saw works for those thicker pieces. I expect it will work OK just go slow. The variable speed unit will allow you to slow down the speed which my older unit can not do. Herman > > Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item > #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question > is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job? ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: RV-8
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Just FYI...there's a GREAT picture of the RV-8 (in flight) in the 9/95 issue of EAA Sport Aviation, page 38. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kev711(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Are cheap tools always the best tools???
Hello Everyone, First I want to start off by saying I have no connection with any tool vendor out there. I and my wife Trudy are like most of you just starting out on an (RV-6) tail kit. We have tool catalogs from every conceivable vendor and source. I first did cost analysis models and came to a startling conclusion. Like most other major investments of time and money, customer service and valuable tried information is what we really pay for. I have noticed from this forum and many other EAA gatherings that many of us really do know much about this whole aviation endeavor. "Many" though does not count for the majority of the rest of us. My point is, you can order any tool in the world and bargain to the penny for the best price, but unless you have been around the patch already, that tool my not be THE BEST tool for you. My collective memory of really good deals from the past turn out that I really didn't get the best deal in most cases; that is until we started to tool up for this project. I qualify my next comment by stating that I am a professional "secret shopper" and have been in the customer service business for over 16 years. My experience with Avery Enterprises of Ft. Worth, Texas (1-800-652-8379) was so good that I feel obligated to spread a few good words about this establishment. (Bob and Judy Avery, owners.) I have never been so well received by any other vendor. My experience from others that I called ranged from average interest in my plight to down right disinterest. Being blessed to live in the Dallas Metroplex, I am geographically located only one hour from Avery's. So frustrated was I in my tool searching, (remember information) that I took a day off and drove over to Bob Avery's place. I figured I would find a rundown dingy "aviation type" hangar / warehouse / pop stand etc... Wrong! You could eat off the floor. He has one of the most organized retail operations I have ever seen. His business is truly a one button computer operation. A great deal of attention has gone into maximizing his available resources in order to serve the customer better. I walked in the front door and was quickly introduced to Bob. I found him to be far from the traditional "cigar chewing, What can I do you out of Bud?" type of fellow. The only thing he knew about me is that I was in the market to tool up for an RV-6. Before I could say, "Whoa Nellie" he had me in his shop drilling holes and pounding all sorts of rivets. We spoke about drill presses and band saws, air compressors and primer coats. When I got done, we had touched on just about every major tool related operation. The time was getting by me now and traffic in Dallas / Ft. Worth can be tough at rush hour. Finally, I had no further pressing questions and in my mind it was time to be getting back home. I hate to say it but I had to ask Bob if he would load me up with what I needed. He really does enjoy the hands on part of this business. He kindly printed out a list of what we talked about and from that we checked off what I felt I needed for a start. I found the prices on most item to be in-line with all the other vendors around and some were far better. The point here again is anyone can sell a tool but only a few offer the genuine interest in providing the service that is so much a thing of the past. While I was there a customer called in with three new cans of spray paint that seemingly wouldn't work. ( Right, three cans...) Bob never questioned the customer but instead instructed one of his staff to box up three more. Ever heard of that kind of customer service in the last 20 years? I think he even paid the shipping! I am sold on this place and will continue to add to my already $800.00 total as I see the need. On another note, I also purchased one of those B-1 Project 1/4 inch (Rockwell) air drills from Aircraft Tool Sales in Port Muron, Michigan. (910-364-5885) Other than some wear to the outside of the tool, (Sorry I'm a Neat Freak) it was well worth the $45.00 I spent. Works Great! Thanks for your ear and I hope I haven't over stress those few " Too busy to think / Ole Grumpy Types" out there, but now and then something comes your way and you just can't ignore it. Thanks for all the great insight!! Kevin & Trudy Williams Dallas, Texas RV-6A Tail Kit #24438 "THE JIGS UP!..... and T-minus one garage sale to go and counting...." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Chicago Pneumatics gun
The "teasing" trigger is so sensitive > that it is essentially useless and the drill feels rough even when you > turn it by hand. Also, it's made in Japan. I don't mind that but I would > prefer to see "Tokyo Pneumatics" on the handle. I thougt I was buying a top > of the line US made tool. > John > CP has a line of import tools as well as the good ole' made in USA types. I agree that the USA version is much better. I try to buy only tools made in the USA. Most adds will say that it's made here if it is. The price will show where it's made also. The USA version is not that much more and is well worth the extra cost. Ingersol Rand also makes fine air tools. I like my IR drill beter than the CP. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kev711(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Are cheap tools always the best tools???
Hello Everyone, First I want to start off by saying I have no connection with any tool vendor out there. I and my wife Trudy are like most of you just starting out on an (RV-6) tail kit. We have tool catalogs from every conceivable vendor and source. I first did cost analysis models and came to a startling conclusion. Like most other major investments of time and money, customer service and valuable tried information is what we really pay for. I have noticed from this forum and many other EAA gatherings that many of us really do know much about this whole aviation endeavor. "Many" though does not count for the majority of the rest of us. My point is, you can order any tool in the world and bargain to the penny for the best price, but unless you have been around the patch already, that tool my not be THE BEST tool for you. My collective memory of really good deals from the past turn out that I really didn't get the best deal in most cases; that is until we started to tool up for this project. I qualify my next comment by stating that I am a professional "secret shopper" and have been in the customer service business for over 16 years. My experience with Avery Enterprises of Ft. Worth, Texas (1-800-652-8379) was so good that I feel obligated to spread a few good words about this establishment. (Bob and Judy Avery, owners.) I have never been so well received by any other vendor. My experience from others that I called ranged from average interest in my plight to down right disinterest. Being blessed to live in the Dallas Metroplex, I am geographically located only one hour from Avery's. So frustrated was I in my tool searching, (remember information) that I took a day off and drove over to Bob Avery's place. I figured I would find a rundown dingy "aviation type" hangar / warehouse / pop stand etc... Wrong! You could eat off the floor. He has one of the most organized retail operations I have ever seen. His business is truly a one button computer operation. A great deal of attention has gone into maximizing his available resources in order to serve the customer better. I walked in the front door and was quickly introduced to Bob. I found him to be far from the traditional "cigar chewing, What can I do you out of Bud?" type of fellow. The only thing he knew about me is that I was in the market to tool up for an RV-6. Before I could say, "Whoa Nellie" he had me in his shop drilling holes and pounding all sorts of rivets. We spoke about drill presses and band saws, air compressors and primer coats. When I got done, we had touched on just about every major tool related operation. The time was getting by me now and traffic in Dallas / Ft. Worth can be tough at rush hour. Finally, I had no further pressing questions and in my mind it was time to be getting back home. I hate to say it but I had to ask Bob if he would load me up with what I needed. He really does enjoy the hands on part of this business. He kindly printed out a list of what we talked about and from that we checked off what I felt I needed for a start. I found the prices on most item to be in-line with all the other vendors around and some were far better. The point here again is anyone can sell a tool but only a few offer the genuine interest in providing the service that is so much a thing of the past. While I was there a customer called in with three new cans of spray paint that seemingly wouldn't work. ( Right, three cans...) Bob never questioned the customer but instead instructed one of his staff to box up three more. Ever heard of that kind of customer service in the last 20 years? I think he even paid the shipping! I am sold on this place and will continue to add to my already $800.00 total as I see the need. On another note, I also purchased one of those B-1 Project 1/4 inch (Rockwell) air drills from Aircraft Tool Sales in Port Muron, Michigan. (910-364-5885) Other than some wear to the outside of the tool, (Sorry I'm a Neat Freak) it was well worth the $45.00 I spent. Works Great! Thanks for your ear and I hope I haven't over stress those few " Too busy to think / Ole Grumpy Types" out there, but now and then something comes your way and you just can't ignore it. Thanks for all the great insight!! Kevin & Trudy Williams Dallas, Texas RV-6A Tail Kit #24438 "THE JIGS UP!..... and T-minus one garage sale to go and counting...." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Ski carrying in a RV6?
RV-listers, A question from a non-email connected local builder: Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two sets of skis inside a RV6??? Personally, I think friction was invented to keep you upright :^) , but just passing on the question. ... thanks ... Gil Alexander PS. No, he doesn't want a RV6S - 'S' for skis (like the RV6F - 'F' for floats), since he lives in Southern California :^) ... where the local skiers have to travel to find snow, even in winter :^) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Band saw (fwd)
> > Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item > #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question > is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job? (Warning: verbose story about bad experience with Sears follows. If you don't want to listen to idle whining, skip this message) I had one of these saws for about 8 months. It initially seemed pretty cheaply constructed to me, but it did the job. But one day it suddenly went from "variable speed" to "constant full speed" -- the electronics in the switch were dirty or something, so I took it in to the store. They sent me out to the repair shop at a different location (further away and not open on Sundays) and I left it there for a week. They "fixed" it and gave it back. When I picked it up it had a bunch of black soot all over it that got on my clothes and my car. Then when I got it home and turned on and the problem was still there. I decided I wasn't interested in spending any more time/effort on a cheapo $199 tool, so I took it back to the place I bought it and made em take it back. They were reluctant to do so, kept saying their warranty was "repair" not "replace", but I persisted (always ask for the manager) and got the money back and went out and bought a Delta single speed that I'm happy with. I don't know if this is the norm with Sears repair service, but what with the tool coming back covered with soot, and not even fixed, I was pretty unimpressed with this particular shop. In addition, I was surprised at the sales dept's reluctance to take back a defective saw that was still under warranty after their first attempt to fix it failed. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Hand Sqeezers
I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer. Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4 squeezer sets.) Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to bend the rivits. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: RV bolt tolerances
I am new to the group and am getting close to starting on my RV-6 wing kit. Below is an article from the Chicago Area RVators, to which I belong, that I feel was very beneficial to me, so I am sending it to you. It is fairly long for an E-Mail, but the author, Paul McReynolds is considered by most locals to be a true genius at sheet metal and accompanying equipment. The article follows: Basically there are two types of tolerances in building an RV -- the type that affect the esthetics and the type that affect the structural integrity of hardware. There are only four diameters of bolts used in the RVs -- 3/16, 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8. Some of the 3/16 bolts should be ream fitted because of the nature of their application. The 1/4 bolts are in the control system, bell crank bearings, wing-to-fuselage attachment, tail spring weldment mount, etc. If you start off with any movement or sloppiness in these areas, the bolt holes will only get larger until they might fail. Great care should be taken to make sure the 1/4 bolts attaching the wing to bulkhead F-404 or F-406) at the outboard location (4 bolts -- 2 each side) are press fit with no slack or sloppiness allowed. If only slight looseness is shown, then go to an NAS bolt. If that doesnt give a tight enough fit, then go to an oversize bolt. They are available but hard to find. The main thing is -- dont accept looseness in the critical places (.248 or .249 ream). Use a straight fluted ream in a T handle and turn by hand only. Using strong, steady force turn clockwise only, using the fewest turns needed. Continue to turn clockwise as you withdraw the ream. Never use a power drill. The most critical 5/16 bolt is the rear wing spar to fuselage attach. This should be reamed to a force fit (.310 or .311 ream). The 3/8 bolt holes in the wing main spar are pre-drilled at the factory but they may require some additional reaming to get the bolts to go in the holes. You should do this prior to building the wing or fuselage. It is much easier to do at this time. Also, the 3/8 bolts at the four firewall weldments should be a force fit. If you start with sloppiness in these holes, the landing loads will eventually enlarge them and may cause a failure in the engine mount weldment area (.373 or .374 ream). There are so many 3/16 bolts in the RV that we cannot cover them all in this article but we can give examples. Examples of no reaming necessary would be all of the plastic mounting blocks of Flap crossbar, rudder crossbar, RV6 canopy hinge blocks, overhead canopy latch block, etc. (After you drill plastic block to aluminum part, drill the plastic part with a #10 drill to allow the 3/16 bolt to fit freely.) Examples of 3/16 bolts that require reaming would be the horizontal stab to fuselage and all push-pull controls. These now come reamed from the factory, but check them for tightness. You should try to eliminate all slack in the control system. The only 3/16 bolts in the control system that are not tight are the rudder cable bolts and they use a castellated nut and cotter pin for free rotation. This is a very abbreviated discussion of RV hardware but you get the idea. That was the end of the article. Hope you benefited from it. Bill Costello bcos(at)ix.netcom.com RV-6, on empennage, expecting wing kit ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 11, 1995
Subject: Re: Band saw reply
The Sears band saw will work just fine. I have both a Sears 12" band saw and a Harbor Freight one. The HF does better on very long pieces such as pipe and angle because you can cut the material before you run into the throat of the saw. Get an aluminum cutting blade. It won't load up so bad on thicker pieces. To taper the spar reinforcing bars, get a special aluminum cutting carbide radial or table saw blade at Sears, about $59.00. It will do a much better job and will not require very much smoothing to the cut. It paractically polishes the cut by itself. It works good on wood too. I have both a table and a radial arm saw and both have regular carbide blades with 60 teeth. They also make very fine cuts, but not as nice as the aluminum cutting blade. It must have something to do with the rake and relief of the teeth. Jim Cone Working on finishing kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Band saw
> > Sears has a Craftsman 10-inch variable speed band saw, item > #24453, on sale for $179.99 regularly $199.99. My question > is does anyone know if this is adequate to do the job? My feeling is it might be kind of minimal for that but I haven't tried so can't be sure. > Other than tapering the spar flange strips what will I use > a band saw for? LOTS of stuff. Just trust me, you'll use it. > Anyone successfully use another method to taper the spar > flanges? I own a radial arm saw and thought a metal cutoff > wheel mounted in it might do the job? If not what about a > table saw? I used a table saw with a borrowed taper jig. Making a taper jig out of wood to hold it at the right angle shouldn't be too hard though. Cutting the strips without gouging was kind of tricky, but it worked. I used a carbide tipped hollow ground planer (wood finish) blade. Sears also make metal cutting blades for table saws, more $$ but a smoother cut. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack)
Subject: Re: Steve Frey's Jigs
Steve also sell a "birdcage option" for 200.00 that is used to "accurately set up and hold the wing carry through bulkheads to insure proper angle of incidence, as well as maintain the proper spar gap in the main spar bulkhead". this could be attached to your own jig. don mack ________________________________________________________________________________ by ono.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7492)
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Gil Alexander wrote: > RV-listers, > A question from a non-email connected local builder: > > Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two > sets of skis inside a RV6??? > Not on the inside but here in NZ i've seen skis attached to the wings on piper cubs & cessna 172's , just clamped to removable? brackets. I'm sure they could be slung on removable brackets under/over the wings without any problems. If he really wants to get carried away he could make fiberglass pods to stow them in. I seem to remember seeing an RVator photo showing a setup like this (underwing) for carrying extra baggage on an RV4 sometime in the last year. I was planning on installing a light fibreglass /or pvc tube in the fuse of my 6 to carry some fly fishing rods, using an opening in the baggage compartment bulkhead for access. Haven't quite worked out where the accoustic guitar will fit yet though.. :) Steve, P.S. Gil, did you get my e-mail with the tip up canopy inst. drawings ?? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: RV Bolt Tolerances
I am new to the group and am getting close to starting on my RV-6 wing kit. Below is an article from the Chicago Area RVators, to which I belong, that I feel was very beneficial to me, so I am sending it to you. It is fairly long for an E-Mail, but the author, Paul McReynolds is considered by most locals to be a true genius at sheet metal and accompanying equipment. The article follows: Basically there are two types of tolerances in building an RV -- the type that affect the esthetics and the type that affect the structural integrity of hardware. There are only four diameters of bolts used in the RVs -- 3/16, 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8. Some of the 3/16 bolts should be ream fitted because of the nature of their application. The 1/4 bolts are in the control system, bell crank bearings, wing-to-fuselage attachment, tail spring weldment mount, etc. If you start off with any movement or sloppiness in these areas, the bolt holes will only get larger until they might fail. Great care should be taken to make sure the 1/4 bolts attaching the wing to bulkhead F-404 or F-406) at the outboard location (4 bolts -- 2 each side) are press fit with no slack or sloppiness allowed. If only slight looseness is shown, then go to an NAS bolt. If that doesnt give a tight enough fit, then go to an oversize bolt. They are available but hard to find. The main thing is -- dont accept looseness in the critical places (.248 or .249 ream). Use a straight fluted ream in a T handle and turn by hand only. Using strong, steady force turn clockwise only, using the fewest turns needed. Continue to turn clockwise as you withdraw the ream. Never use a power drill. The most critical 5/16 bolt is the rear wing spar to fuselage attach. This should be reamed to a force fit (.310 or .311 ream). The 3/8 bolt holes in the wing main spar are pre-drilled at the factory but they may require some additional reaming to get the bolts to go in the holes. You should do this prior to building the wing or fuselage. It is much easier to do at this time. Also, the 3/8 bolts at the four firewall weldments should be a force fit. If you start with sloppiness in these holes, the landing loads will eventually enlarge them and may cause a failure in the engine mount weldment area (.373 or .374 ream). There are so many 3/16 bolts in the RV that we cannot cover them all in this article but we can give examples. Examples of no reaming necessary would be all of the plastic mounting blocks of Flap crossbar, rudder crossbar, RV6 canopy hinge blocks, overhead canopy latch block, etc. (After you drill plastic block to aluminum part, drill the plastic part with a #10 drill to allow the 3/16 bolt to fit freely.) Examples of 3/16 bolts that require reaming would be the horizontal stab to fuselage and all push-pull controls. These now come reamed from the factory, but check them for tightness. You should try to eliminate all slack in the control system. The only 3/16 bolts in the control system that are not tight are the rudder cable bolts and they use a castellated nut and cotter pin for free rotation. This is a very abbreviated discussion of RV hardware but you get the idea. That was the end of the article. Hope you benefited from it. Bill Costello bcos(at)ix.netcom.com RV-6, on empennage, expecting wing kit ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pilot's Operating Handbook
Date: Sep 11, 1995
From: "Kevin E. Vap" <kvap(at)solar.sky.net>
-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I just got back from EAA Chapter 868 meeting tonight. Gary McDaniel (building an RV-4) had purchased the Flight Manual I mentioned in a message a few days ago from that place in Colorado. He recommended not spending the $10. According to him, it was a T-6 book that was filled in with some generic RV numbers, and not done well at all. -Kevin Vap RV-6 kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278))
Subject: Re: Drilling for tie down bracket
>> One question I haven't solved yet is how do you drill the tie >> down bracket to the predrilled spar reinforcing angle? An angle drill >> might work, but I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. For those of I got a 12" long drill bit and used that - it's stiff but you can get enough flex over the length to do the job. I had looked in catalogs at right angle drills but couldn't find one that would get close enough. The long bit worked great and was a lot cheaper. Tom Goeddel RV-6a (still plugging away on the wings...) t.goeddel(at)att.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: RV Bolt Tolerances (again)
Hi Everybody, I think I just discovered another thing that cannot be done. I have a fairly lengthy message that I cleverly thought I would prepare in Word for Windows 6.0, then copy and paste into my E-Mail message. Looks like it really screws things up. So I will re-do it here in E-Mail and send it again. I belong to the Chicago Area RVators and there is an article in their newsletter that I found very informative and thought you might too. It is by Paul McReynolds, who locals here think is a true genius when it comes to sheet metal and related topics. The article follows. Basically there are two types of tolerances in building an RV -- the type that affect the esthetics and the type that affect the structural integrity of hardware. There are only four diameters of bolts used in the RVs -- 3/16, 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8. Some of the 3/16 bolts should be ream fitted because of the nature of their application. The 1/4 bolts are in the control system, bell crank bearings, wing-to-fuselage attachment, tail spring weldment mount, etc. If you start off with any movement or sloppiness in these areas, the bolt holes will only get larger until they might fail. Great care should be taken to make sure the 1/4 bolts attaching the wing to bulkhead (F-404 or F-406) at the outboard location (4 bolts -- 2 each side) are press fit with no slack or sloppiness allowed. If only slight looseness is shown, then go to an NAS bolt. If that doesn't give a tight enough fit, then go to an oversize bolt. They are available but hard to find. The main thing is -- don't accept looseness in the critical places (.248 or .249 ream). Use a straight fluted ream in a "T" handle and turn by hand only. Using strong, steady force turn clockwise only, using the fewest turns needed. Continue to turn clockwise as you withdraw the ream. Never use a power drill. The most critical 5/16 bolt is the rear wing spar-to-fuselage attach. This should be reamed to a force fit (.310 or .311 ream). The 3/8 bolt holes in the wing main spar are pre-drilled at the factory but they may require some additional reaming to get the bolts to go in the holes. You should do this prior to building the wing or fuselage. It is much easier to do at this time. Also, the 3/8 bolts at the four firewall weldments should be a force fit. If you start with sloppiness in these holes, the landing loads will eventurally enlarge them and may cause a failure in the engine mount weldment area (.373 or .374 ream). There are so many 3/16 bolts in the RV that we cannot cover them all in this article but we can give examples. Examples of no reaming necessary would be all of the plastic mounting blocks of flap crossbar, rudder crossbar, RV6 canopy hinge blocks, overhead canopy latch block, etc. (After you drill plastic block to aluminum part, drill the plastic part with a #10 drill to allow the 3/16 bolt to fit freely.) Examples of 3/16 bolts that require reaming would be the horizontal stab-to-fuselage and all push-pull controls. These now come reamed from the factory, but check them for tightness. You should try to eliminate all slack in the control system. The only 3/16 bolts in the control system that are not tight are the rudder cable bolts and they use a castellated nut and cotter pin for free rotation. This is a very abbreviated discussion of RV hardware but you get the idea. That ends the article from Paul. I am just about to start on my wings and hope you found it as informative as I did. Bill Costello RV6 - trying to finish empennage b4 wing kit arrives ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 12, 1995
Subject: Re: Steve Frey's Jigs
Steve can be reached at 215-692-3553. His shop is in West Chester, PA. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: Hand Sqeezers
Date: Sep 12, 1995
> > I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer. > Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap > model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4 > squeezer sets.) > Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to > bend the rivits. TATCO!!! If you're still not convinced, I'll let you have my US Air Tool squeezer cheap. I bought a Tatco soon after using the US Tool one. I use a 3" and a 1" yoke. Anything farther than 3" from the edge either gets hit with the big rivet/dimpling tool (Avery) or a rivet gun. The 1" yoke will do up to 1/8" rivets (never tried larger, I don't have the arms), and I don't use the 3" yoke on anything over 1/8". Either yoke will dimple just about anything/any size. Dave Hyde nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu fuselage due 15 Sept ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com
Date: Sep 12, 1995
Subject: Re[2]: Ski carrying in a RV6?
> RV-listers, > A question from a non-email connected local builder: > > Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two > sets of skis inside a RV6??? > -- snip -- I was planning on installing a light fibreglass /or pvc tube in the fuse of my 6 to carry some fly fishing rods, using an opening in the baggage compartment bulkhead for access. Haven't quite worked out where the accoustic guitar will fit yet though.. :) Funny, my RV-4 fuse is just about ready to be skinned (finishing some mods to the throttle/trim quadrant - boy, make one change and ...) and my wife stopped to look at it bringing her skis. She said, "where will these go"? Well, maybe in the -6 you can find a place through and behind the baggage compartment, but when I weighed the skis and a PVC pipe to hold two pairs, I figured that the I would have serious problems with aft CG. It was fun to play with placement while still in the jig, but my skis are *very* long (one pair of 215cm) and it would have been tight. I told her that we'll have to come up with an alternative such as leaving the skis at our favorite ski area, or rent a condo, or rent a different plane, ... no sense ruining the great RV-4 :-) Mike Pilla ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com
Date: Sep 12, 1995
Subject: Re[2]: Steve Frey's Jigs
But constructing a wooden jig is not as easy as it used to be. The phrase "Kiln Dried" seems to no longer be in the vocabulary of most sources of lumber. I know that the Lumber at my local Home Depot is very fresh off the tree. I have some that has sat around for a few months, and I have seen curly french fries that are straighter ;-) One of the rv-listers, Tom Goeddel, put me onto a building materials place that has *dry* lumber; red cedar if I recall. There are placaes that cater to people who want better lumber. You still want it to sit around in your environment for a while, though. It appears to me that the only requirement for the fuselage jig is to keep the bulkhead attach points from moving either vertically or longitudenally. The rest of the jig can warp like crazy and it won't matter, right? As long as the jig doesn't warp/change while working on the fuse, there shouldn't be a problem. I installed some plastic clamps (three on each side) so that I could attach a water level made from vinyl tubing and check things out from time to time. The Frey *bulkhead fixture*, while nice doesn't appear to be necessary. Van provides the critical dimensions and I just used some 3/8" threaded rod through a spar substitute (made from a *planed* piece of 2x6 red cedar) and the front of the jig. Once clamped in place, it isn't going anywhere. Doesn't take long and is a heck of a lot cheaper than $200 or thereabouts. Mike Pilla ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Hand Sqeezers
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, EDWARD COLE wrote: > I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer. > Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap > model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4 > squeezer sets.) > Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to > bend the rivits. > DO NOT GET A CHEAP SQUEEZER!!!! That's one of the tools you will use the most often. Get the best squeezer you can buy. I have a Tatco, and it is a very good tool. If I hade to do it over again, I would probably by the Avery Squeezer. The handles are a little longer so you get more leverage, and it uses the same yokes as the pneumatic squeezer. As for yokes, I think the best choice for a general-purpose is a 2-1/2 yoke. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Gil Alexander wrote: > RV-listers, > A question from a non-email connected local builder: > > Q: Has any seen, found, heard of or thought of a good way to carry two > sets of skis inside a RV6??? Though I've not seen one installed in an RV-6, I've seen other airplanes with Ski Tubes installed. They generally run down the inside of the tailcone. The front end is at the rear wall of the baggage compartment. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: "Earl Brabandt" <ewbraban(at)ichips.intel.com>
Hi builders, > with Ski Tubes installed. They generally run down the inside of the > tailcone. The front end is at the rear wall of the baggage compartment. If you're very concerned with CG, you might consider bringing the tube forward such that the skis extend into the baggage compartment. Design it so you can insert the skis tips first; the bindings (heavy) will then be located more forward. Obviously alpine skis create greater weight penalties than light touring nordic skis or fishing poles. Or you could just take up snowboarding! (Can't believe I'm even suggesting that). By the way, being a skier and windsurfer, I've noticed that the natural elements continue to impede my progress in building my RV-6. Yeah, the elements -- like wind and snow! Cal (N66VR in progress) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Change of Address & Avery "Clone" Tools
Terrence I bought the Avery tool kit and have been very satisfied with it and the rivet gun. One point I did not like was that Avery includes a circle cutter that cuts up to 4 inches, unfortunately you need to cut 6 inch circles in the wing tank ribs. Get the larger cirlce cutter. Bob Busick RV-6 > the product from Avery looks pretty good. The only concern I have is Bob > talks about a "clone" rivet gun. I was wondering if anybody has any comments > about this clone versus the real product from Chicago Pneumatic. > > Thanx! > > > Terry in Calgary > S/N 24414 > "Attending Sept. Builders' Conference" > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Bulkhead alignment - was Steve Frey's Jigs
**** Mike's message cut **** > > The Frey *bulkhead fixture*, while nice doesn't appear to be > necessary. Van provides the critical dimensions and I just used some > 3/8" threaded rod through a spar substitute (made from a *planed* > piece of 2x6 red cedar) and the front of the jig. Once clamped in > place, it isn't going anywhere. Doesn't take long and is a heck of a > lot cheaper than $200 or thereabouts. > > Mike Pilla I used 4 alum. yard sticks clamped to the bulkead flanges. Use them between the securely fastened firewall and the F604, and from the F604 to F605 bulkheads. Use two between each of the bulkheads, one on the left side, and one on the right side. Firmly locate the bulkheads at the longeron level first. Then work on the F605 and F606 bottom edges using edge-gip Clecos, slide the bulkheads around to locate them, and then change to C-clamps when alignment is close. I also cut down a similar yard stick to be an _exact_ spacer between the main and aft spars. I could then use this to convince myself that the wings would fit the fuselage later [ they did :^) ]. One of the keys is to locate the firewall exactly to create a good reference for all other measurements, especially getting it at 90 degrees to the centerline. Luckily the firewall is easy to shim into alignment using washers at the mounting bolts that hold it to the jig uprights. The above was easy to do, and a lot cheaper than the fixture referenced above. Trade the time/energy savings for a pnuematic squeezer :^) ... Gil Alexander, RV6a, #20701 .... the wings did fit ... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: "Stanley C. Blanton" <75472.372(at)dcgw01.compuserve.com>
Subject: Ski carrying in a RV6?
Regarding skis in an RV6, Since I first decided to build an RV6 I have thought about the possibility of using it for ski trips. Two distinct possibilities occur to me. The first is to carry the skis in a mount mounted under the belly similar to a belly fuel tank. It would have to be long but not very long in diameter. Groung clearance might be a problem in a -6 but less so in a -6A. The more promising method I have considered is to build a tube or possibly just some support rings inside the tail cone. The skis would of course have to penetrate the rear bulkhead of the baggage compartment. The tails might rest even with your shoulders between the seats seats to keep the weight as far forward as possible. With manual flaps the skis could even rest further forward. Care would need to be taken to keep the skis away from the control rod for the elevator. I'd be interested in sharing ideas/solutions with anyone. Stan Blanton RV-6 Fitting the flaps & ailerons ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
> > By the way, being a skier and windsurfer, I've noticed that the natural ^^^^^^^^^^ > elements continue to impede my progress in building my RV-6. Yeah, the > elements -- like wind and snow! > > Cal (N66VR in progress) > I bet you plan to build a glider/trailer for that longboard ;-) Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 12, 1995
Subject: Tank Sealing Options
>Mike Graves said; > >I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of sorts. >Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around the >dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job. An A&P friend of mine who works at McDonnell Douglas Corp. told me that they apply the PRC (different company, but same material as ProSeal) to all of the parts which are cleco'd in place until the material cures. (fill all of the holes with cleco's) Once the material has cured, you rivet the tank ribs, and then go over the rivets and flange to form a fillet on everything. (PRC has a different color material for a third time seal brush coat) Then you do the same again for the rear tank plate. We did this on John Peaslee's RV-4 tanks, and it works very well. It was definitely simpler and cleaner than the wet method I used on my RV-3 wing tanks. I mentioned this to another friend of mine building a RV-4, and he says that Grumman calls out the same process. Jim Ayers LOM RV-3 Attended VAN's Fly-in. Electric tach had been intermittently grounding mags. Engine ran great for 1.2 hours of flight time before I left for VAN's, as well as the flight there and back. (Small supercharged engines perform different than the Lyc O-320 RV-3 I flew with.) RV-4 Parts still collecting dust. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
> Since I first decided to build an RV6 I have thought about the possibility of > using it for ski trips. Two distinct possibilities occur to me. > If the bindings are not to large, one could make a tube to slide into the lightning holes in the main wing ribs from access pannels in the wing tips. If the skis were strapped together with the bindings together insted of the normal carry method they would fit in a smaller tube. The extra Lbs. may cause a slower roll but I woud _assume_ that would be preferable to a tail heavy condition. Extra fuel tanks could be put in the area also. Chris P.S. I bet this one starts another mail storm. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re[2]: Tank Sealing Options
>>Mike Graves said; >> >>I understand that some airplanes have fuel cells, a rubber bladder of sorts. >>Has anybody ever tried this on an RV? This may be a possible way around the >>dreaded (or cherished) pro-seal job. > >An A&P friend of mine who works at McDonnell Douglas Corp. told me that they >apply the PRC (different company, but same material as ProSeal) to all of the >parts which are cleco'd in place until the material cures. (fill all of the >holes with cleco's) Once the material has cured, you rivet the tank ribs, and Jim, ... Isn't there a danger of gluing in the clecos permanently into the rivet holes? It would slow the plane down as well as looking tacky :^) Did you have to do anything special to make sure this doesn't happen?? It does sound like an easier approach. ... Gil Alexander ... still got one tank to go ... >then go over the rivets and flange to form a fillet on everything. (PRC has a >different color material for a third time seal brush coat) Then you do the >same >again for the rear tank plate. > >We did this on John Peaslee's RV-4 tanks, and it works very well. It was >definitely simpler and cleaner than the wet method I used on my RV-3 wing >tanks. > >I mentioned this to another friend of mine building a RV-4, and he says that >Grumman calls out the same process. > > >Jim Ayers >LOM RV-3 Attended VAN's Fly-in. Electric tach had been intermittently >grounding mags. Engine ran great for 1.2 hours of flight time before I left >for >VAN's, as well as the flight there and back. (Small supercharged engines >perform >different than the Lyc O-320 RV-3 I flew with.) >RV-4 Parts still collecting dust. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
On the RV-6 there's about 50" aft of the spar before you get to the aileron push-pull tube. Forward of the spar it's around 55" to the tank. Too short for most skiis, however I know of at least one RV-4 builder who is installing a tube in his LE holes for his fishing rods. Randall Henderson RV-6 > If the bindings are not to large, one could make a tube to slide into > the lightning holes in the main wing ribs from access pannels in the wing > tips. If the skis were strapped together with the bindings together insted > of the normal carry method they would fit in a smaller tube. The extra Lbs. > may cause a slower roll but I woud _assume_ that would be preferable to a > tail heavy condition. Extra fuel tanks could be put in the area also. > > Chris > > P.S. I bet this one starts another mail storm. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Jimcruson(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 12, 1995
Subject: Ski carrying in an RV-6?
I was at an EAA fly in at Ashland, Oregon in April or May of this year and there happened to be an RV-6 equipped with a ski tube! It was fashioned from a large sheet of aluminum rolled into a cylinder with the edges overlapped and riveted. It was located inside the fuselage with the opening behind the passenger's head. The opening was flush with the rear wall of the baggage compartment and it extended down the tail cone.I don't know what the aluminum thickness was. The builder said it worked well but was careful to explain that all of his weight and balance calculations were performed with two pairs of skis in place at the time. I don't think he went so far as to add skis to his equipment list though! This RV-6 had the tip-up canopy. He also had the 180HP lycoming with constant speed prop for plenty of weight up front which helped him overcome any aft CG problems. I am not sure, but it seems we may have discussed a removable weight placed far forward in the cockpit when the skis were in place (I do not know for sure if this is accurate or not but I seem to remember it from somewhere) Interestingly, it also had a large dive brake attached to the underside of the fuselage approximately in line with the flaps. It was operated by a lever which in most RV's would operate the flaps (his flaps were electric). He said he originally installed the brake to help out in the event he got overspeed during aerobatic maneuvers but found that it was also an asset to get into short backcountry fields with . I believe the owner lived in Medford, OR if you wanted to try and track him down for more details. I believe he said he kept his plane based at the Medford airport. Hope this is of some help! Jim Cruson RV6/6A (halfway through empennage) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 12, 1995
Subject: Jigs
Hey guys, I've been following the messages for quite a while now and my plain old pine (untreated) 2x4's with particle board caps have survived a very hot and humid summer in southern illinois without any problems. My shop is in my un-aircondition garage and the jig is still as true today as it was in April when I constructed it. Just periodically check your alignment strings (as per the plans) and you won't have any problems. If you believe a prefabricated metal jig is important then by all means do it! My investment in jig material and hardware is $62.15. If you do invest in an expensive metal jig you will more than likely be able to sell it after your plane is constructed. I plan on recycling my tail and wing jig lumber into a fuselage jig in about 5 months. One last thing: It was information on this net that ultimately steered me to a simple wood jig. Happy building chet razer in Sparta, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MIKE_PARKINSON@HP-Australia-om1.om.hp.com
Date: Sep 13, 1995
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in an RV-6?
rv-list(at)matronics.com Item Subject: Ski carrying in an RV-6? Good discussions with some lateral solutions! It may be worth considering the safety implications of some of these ideas though :-) >>I was at an EAA fly in at Ashland, Oregon in April or May of this year and >>there happened to be an RV-6 equipped with a ski tube! >> It was located inside the fuselage with the opening behind the >>passenger's head. Not a pretty sight when you run off the end of the runway and hit a tree! Regards Mike P RV6 - gearing up and studying plans ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: kingm(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King)
Subject: Vertical Card Compass
I'm starting to get serious about laying out an instrument panel for our -6A. We will have a tip up canopy and would prefer not to mount a floating compass on the top of the dash. I know this question was asked some time ago, but has anyone had any experience with a vertical card compass? It looks interesting from a size and cost perspective, but does it work? Also, anyone had any bad experiences with panel mounting a liquid filled compass? Monte King Oak Harbor, Wa ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 12, 1995
From: NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH)
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
I haven't seen anybody strap skis to a wing before but I do know a guy who flew his plane to a hunting lodge out in the woods, shot an 8 point buck, and was so persistent in getting it home in one peice that he tied it to the wing close to the fuselage. Can anyone do better than that? Kurt Keilbach RV 6a (still working on those wings...) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in an RV-6?
On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 HP-Australia-om1.om.hp.com!MIKE_PARKINSON(at)matronics.com wrote: > > Not a pretty sight when you run off the end of the runway and hit a tree! > Plan on doing this often? :-) I would HOPE the skis are strapped securely into the tube. - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
> > On the RV-6 there's about 50" aft of the spar before you get to the > aileron push-pull tube. Forward of the spar it's around 55" to the > tank. Too short for most skiis, however I know of at least one RV-4 > builder who is installing a tube in his LE holes for his fishing rods. > > Randall Henderson > RV-6 > You are correct sir. I hadn't thought of that. Even my 185s would hang out the wing tip. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Hand Sqeezers -Reply
I own the tatco and find that it is lacking in some respects. I can not reliably sqeeze 1/8 riviets with it. I have the larger throat yoke. 3" I think. The new Avery made one looks like the way to go to me. Longer handle for more leverage and you can use your pneumatic squeezer yokes so you are not double buying. >>> EDWARD COLE 09/11/95 05:37pm >>> I need some experienced opinions before I buy a hand squeezer. Which is better..Tatco from Avery's, Avery's own brand, or a cheap model listed in US Air Tool's flyer ($125.50 with 1", 3" yokes and 4 squeezer sets.) Also, which is the most versatile yoke?? I understand the 3" tends to bend the rivits. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: buck on the wing
Date: Sep 13, 1995
> > I haven't seen anybody strap skis to a wing before but I do know a > guy who flew his plane to a hunting lodge out in the woods, shot an 8 > point buck, and was so persistent in getting it home in one peice > that he tied it to the wing close to the fuselage. Can anyone do > better than that? > > Kurt Keilbach > RV 6a (still working on those wings...) > > Kurt, Sounds like an idea for an STC. Imagine antlers attached to each wing, similar to the texas longhorns on a cadillac! ;-) Mike Graves RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Ski carrying in a RV6?
> > I haven't seen anybody strap skis to a wing before but I do know a > guy who flew his plane to a hunting lodge out in the woods, shot an 8 > point buck, and was so persistent in getting it home in one peice > that he tied it to the wing close to the fuselage. Can anyone do > better than that? > > Kurt Keilbach > RV 6a (still working on those wings...) > > My dad tells a story of a guy that did the same thing. He nearly killed himself just trying to get back to the strip after TO. It seems that a large buck changes the flight characteristics of a Cherokee. So much for the old addage "...it takes big bucks to fly..." ;-) Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 13, 1995
Subject: Ski's in an RV-6 (again)
I think everybody is getting some bad advice regarding puting skis in an RV. My thoughts: 1. You CAN NOT run skis through the lighting holes in the wings. How are you going to get them into your wings??? For those of you that have not attached your wings to fuselage yet be advised; if you don't run your push rods in the wings before attaching them to the fuselage first...you can not get 'em in. With this in mind...how will you ever get ski's in these very same holes??? 2. If you run the skis in the tail cone you will have an aft CG problem. Think about it...One pound at the tail has the effect on CG of about 100 pounds in the baggage compartment (that's a guess). Not to mention that you have your bell crank and push rods back there. I wouldn't mess around trying to make the tail cone a baggage area. 3. External ski tubes may work fine on a 75 mph cub but I have to beleive that they will have an adverse aerodynamic effect on an RV at 180 mph. Additionally, I don't know about you, but I would hate to get to my destination and fine two empty brackets where my skis once were! Look-out below. I haven't taken any measurements, but if you did not install the center support (some people don't for leg room, but they should because it's structual) from the IP to the fuel selector, and you have electric flaps, you might be able to run the skis from the battery box to the aft baggage bulkhead. A pair of 180's are just short of 6' so I'm sure they will fit this way. Maybe you might want to use shorter skis when using the RV for transport. Or, if you insist on skiing on boards that are to long to fit into your RV, maybe you should rent an aircraft that they FIT INTO! Before anybody starts to play with an aft CG, do yourself a favor...call Van's and get some "professional" help. They know better than anybody else where the end of the control envelope is. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino)
Subject: Tools
I normally just read the list, but with all the talk about tools I had to add my two cents. I am new to aircraft building and their specialized tools, but I have worked with tools all my life. I have been teaching Automotive Mechanics for twelve years, and worked in the trade for an additional seven, I am also an ASE Certified Master Technician. I learned early on that you get what you pay for. There is a big difference between a cheap tool and an expensive tool. Most off the shelf tools, (including craftsman) are bid out to be built. That means that the lowest bidder gets to make their tools. I have bought some tools such as compressors like this, but in general I will only buy tools from their manufacturer or a distributor. I have made my living with hand and pneumatic tools, been payed by the job, and have learned that time is money. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Ski's in an RV-6 (again)
> > 1. You CAN NOT run skis through the lighting holes in the wings. How are you > going to get them into your wings??? For those of you that have not attached > your wings to fuselage yet be advised; if you don't run your push rods in the > wings before attaching them to the fuselage first...you can not get 'em in. > With this in mind...how will you ever get ski's in these very same holes??? > I think I said something about access pannels in the wingtips. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Monte King wrote: > I'm starting to get serious about laying out an instrument panel for our > -6A. We will have a tip up canopy and would prefer not to mount a floating > compass on the top of the dash. I know this question was asked some time > ago, but has anyone had any experience with a vertical card compass? It > looks interesting from a size and cost perspective, but does it work? > Also, anyone had any bad experiences with panel mounting a liquid filled > compass? Careful examination of the catalogs will show that there is no such thing as a panel-mounted vertical card compass. Apparently, this is because they are very sensitive to vibration. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 13, 1995
Subject: Re: Apologies to the Listers (REAL CHATTER)
Remi We all have bad days and I to should have been a little more diplomatic in my response to you. Anyway I am glad that you are still here thank you for the space for Van's homepage. Now lets get back to what we all are here for and that is building and flying one of the best kit airplanes on the market and meeting other builders and flyers and trying to help and learn from each other. Hope to see you again at a RV gathering. Jerry Springer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 13, 1995
Subject: Re: Ski's in an RV-6 (again)
>I haven't taken any measurements, but if you did not install the center >support (some people don't for leg room, but they should because it's >structual) from the IP to the fuel selector, Hi Gary I am one of those people that did away with the center support and I am glad that I did because it sure makes it a lot more comfortable to fly with more room to move your legs around on a long trip. The people that I talked to at Van's seemed to think that it is not structual, I don't think that the two rivets or screws that hold it to the IP would hold very much. Jerry Springer N906GS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Vertical Card Compass
I tried a vertical card compass in my RV-6. I mounted it on the top of the dash on an aluminum plate. I had to mount the compass so that it set about two inches out from the dash edge because of the canopy. It was still rigid enuf, or so I thought. When I started up the engine the dial started to rotate about at a rate of 30 to 40 rpm. Real cute but not very practical. I don't know if the vibration/rotation is peculiar to my aircraft but, in any case, I'd be willing to make a real nice deal with you on a vertical card compass. >I'm starting to get serious about laying out an instrument panel for our >-6A. We will have a tip up canopy and would prefer not to mount a floating >compass on the top of the dash. I know this question was asked some time >ago, but has anyone had any experience with a vertical card compass? It >looks interesting from a size and cost perspective, but does it work? >Also, anyone had any bad experiences with panel mounting a liquid filled >compass? > > >Monte King >Oak Harbor, Wa > John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 13, 1995
Subject: Snips
Dick, there's one last thing I forgot to mention regarding the Andy Snips. As you use them you will discover that long cuts (1" or longer) will always result in a very noticable stress mark. John Shoemaker showed me that somewhere toward the center of the blades is sort of a sweet spot and if you can limit each snip to that spot and only make about a 1/4" cut or less each time you can almost eliminate or at least significantly reduce the size and visibility of the stress mark. I also noticed that hand fatigue also results in stress marks along the cut. I dont't know if all this is important or not but I finished all my cuts by filing the edges just a bit. I think another possibility is making the cuts with a cutoff tool in your drill or hand grinder but I haven't tried that yet. I seems to me that when I first began following this forum and the RV6 forum on AOL there was a lot of discussion about stress marks along cut lines. Maby we can get away from the ski pole thing and resurrect cutting aluminum. Chet ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 13, 1995
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Subject: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags. Question: Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start. I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard wrong? Any takers? Ken RV6a (finishing off the wiring....nearly there!!) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Snips
>Mayby we can get away from the ski pole >thing and resurrect cutting aluminum. > >Che My partner and I have built two tail kits for rv6's and are now working on the first wing kit. We've given up on snips and use a muffler cut off wheel from Pep Boys in an angled die grinder, a large cutting wheel from a hobby shop for a dremel tool, and the little cutters that come with the dremel tool. These tools cut fast, clean, and do not bend the aluminum sheet. The snips are the least used tools in our arsenal. ___ * UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader '[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
> > My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate > pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags. > > Question: > Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start. > I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage > can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard > wrong? > > Any takers? > > Ken > > RV6a Yes you should select the left mag only. At low RPM the right mag fires to early and will cause "kick-back". This is not very good for the Bendix drive in the starter. It can also cause dammage to the nose casting of the starter. Even if you have the mags timed properly, and only the left mag selected you can get the same problem if the battery is low or there is some sort of problen delivering current to the starter. 85W had a problem with the main battery cable at the point that it passed through the firewall. The cable was old and about half of the strands were broken. This produced a slow cranking condition and that led to the above described kick-back problem. Replaceing the entire current path from the battery box to the starter cured the kick-back. To bad we had to buy two Bendix drives ($60) and a nose casting about ($250) before we resolved the problem. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks -Reply
This was certainly true in my 65 Cherokee. I went through 3 starter motor drives before I learned to turn on left mag only. The left mag has an impulse coupling that retards the timing. If the right mag is also turned on it will fire at the normal advanced position which is BTDC. This drives the piston back down turning the crank the wrong way ocassionaly knocking teeth off the starter drive or shearing a drive key. I doesn't happen every time I think because the impulse coupling also increases the intensity of the spark by snapping forward speeding up movenent of the magnet. But sometimes most likely when the engine is hot it will fire on the right mag before the left mag gets to fire. Once I learned this no more broken starters. BTW, until I got educated, I could change a starter in 20 minutes on a cherokee 180. The starter drives I took to a local automotive Alt. and starter shop and they pressed new gears on for $9.00. >>> J.Ken Hitchmough 09/13/95 09:20pm >>> My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags. Question: Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start. I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard wrong? Any takers? Ken RV6a (finishing off the wiring....nearly there!!) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Vertical Compass Cards
Those VCC's are very sensitive to the magnetic fields created in the aircraft electrical system. Put on a landing light, key the mic, turn on the strobes and watch it go round and round. Some of the RV-4's in my hanger have had great success with a remote mounted compasses. The actual compass (a sheilded unit that measures about 5 inches around and 3 inches high) can be installed under the baggage compartment floor (away from most of the magnetic interference) and the vertical card can be mounted in a hole in your IP. It provides very smooth and accurate information. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Snips vs Die Grinder
I don't use the snips very much either. Mine tend to leave small serrations at the edge, bend or warp the metal, leave stress marks, etc. Of course, it just MIGHT be my technique! I use 1/32 inch cutoff wheels in a straight or an angled air die grinder (I have both from Harbor Freight, which seem to work well). When making a long cut, I often c-clamp angle irons on one or both sides of the sheet to be cut. I cover the side of the angle iron that contacts the sheet with masking tape to keep it from marring the aluminum. This gives me the confidence that I cannot wander into the finished part with the grinder. With more confidence gained, sometimes I do the whole thing very carefully "free-hand" and have done well. One of my drawbacks is that I have a 25 gallon compressor (Sears) and I have to pause often to let it catch up -- those die grinders reall eat up the air. Hope this helps. Bill Costello bcos(at)ix.netcom.com RV6 - trying to finish the empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Vertical Compass Cards
Those VCC's are very sensitive to the magnetic fields created in the aircraft electrical system. Put on a landing light, key the mic, turn on the strobes and watch it go round and round. Some of the RV-4's in my hanger have had great success with a remote mounted compasses. The actual compass (a sheilded unit that measures about 5 inches around and 3 inches high) can be installed under the baggage compartment floor (away from most of the magnetic interference) and the vertical card can be mounted in a hole in your IP. It provides very smooth and accurate information. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
>My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate >pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags. > >Question: >Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start. >-- Yes - the ignition switch is normally wired such that in the "Start" position the Left mag (one with impulse coupler) is the only one not grounded. Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 564-4404 DOD Program Manager PAGE:(800) 719-1246 FORE Systems FAX: (301) 564-4408 6500 Rock Spring Drive, Suite 444 rbibb(at)fore.com Bethesda, MD 20817 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks (fwd)
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Yes, you want to start on the Left mag (which as the impulse coupling). The normal key start switch will ground the right mag when you put the key into the start position. Thus, you start on the left mag. (This assumes you wire up the switch properly :) ). If you just use toggle switchs or a switch with R/L/ Both, then set the switch so only the left mag is on for starting. I hand prop my Pitts and I set the switch on 'Left' and then when it starts I go around to the cockpit and move the switch to 'Both'. Remember that most mag switches are backwards in that the 'Left' mag position is actually to the right most position and the 'Right' mag hot is with the key in the left most position. All the above applies to any engine/mag where there is only one impulse coupling. Herman > Organization: Magic Online Services Inc. > Subject: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > My starter/ignition setup is a rotary switch for the magnetos with a separate > pushbutton for the starter. The Lycoming 360 in my '6a has Slick mags. > > Question: > Do I have to select LEFT mag only (the one with the impulse coupler) to start. > I have heard that with BOTH selected during the start sequence, serious damage > can occur. Is this how the rotary key/ignition switch works or have I heard > wrong? > > Any takers? > > Ken > > RV6a > (finishing off the wiring....nearly there!!) > Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6 ________________________________________________________________________________ for rv-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan)
Subject: Rivet Spacing
Hi All, There aren't many instructions on rivet spacing strategies for the horizontal stabilizer skins. Did anyone find a strategy that seemed to work well? I was thinking of marking the location of the rivet on the rear spar flange and measuring up 1 and 1/4 inch on the ribs all the way to the leading edge and adjusting the spacing where neccessary. Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar rivet spacing tools worth the money? thanks, John (Cable TV installed in garage. Nothing like watching Monday night football while building an airplane!) ps. Frank Justice's latest manual addition document (Removing the Fuselage from the Jig) has been published to my web page. Feel free to dowload. http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
> > Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically > pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar > rivet spacing tools worth the money? > The "rivet fan" is a must have tool. Don't drill holes without it. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Randy S. McCallister" <rmccalli(at)runet.edu>
Subject: RV-8..when?
Date: Sep 14, 1995
I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8? - Randy (RV-6 tail) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Karl)
Subject: extra fuel tank
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Question: What have people done as far as extra fuel tanks on rv's? I don't see a big need for this as I suspect fuel won't be a limiting factor for most. I might be interested in just a couple more gallons due to my personal RV mission. Also, since most aviation accidents are fuel starvation (I know, it wouldn't happen to anyone on the rv list though), what about something like a reserve tank. On motorcyles I've owned, I loved the reserve tank. I never worried about gas. If I ever ran it out, I just switched to reserve and headed for a gas station. For non-cyclists, the implementation was actually one tank with two pick-ups, one shorter than the other. When the fuel dropped below the level of the taller (main tank) pickup, the rider could switch to the shorter (pseudo reserve tank) pickup, and get the last 20% or so out of the tank. The nice thing about that was it was absolutely accurate, unlike a fuel gauge. At that point I knew exactly how much fuel I had left! What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives of it? Don PS Credit to my friend Wayne for helping me with the idea. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
> There aren't many instructions on rivet spacing strategies for the > horizontal stabilizer skins. Did anyone find a strategy that seemed to > work well? First, I would not be too concerned about producing n aesthetically pleasing rivet pattern. Once the airplane is painted, the rivets are just not going to be noticable enough to be worth a lot of effort. >I was thinking of marking the location of the rivet on the rear > spar flange and measuring up 1 and 1/4 inch on the ribs all the way to the > leading edge and adjusting the spacing where neccessary. That works fine. The other thing you can do is to put a rivet at each 'intersection' of rib and spar, adjust the spacing to the next rivet, and then use the standard spacing for the resr. > Also, are those 37 dollar rivet spacing tools worth the money? Yes, but if you want to spend the time you can do even better. Make several templates, each from a strip of aluminum. Each strip should be about 3 feet long. Drill a line of l=pilot holes in one strip that are 1 inch aprt. In the next one make the pilot holes 1-1/2 inches apart, etc. The resulting templates are actually easier to use than a standard rivet spacing tool. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 Working on the second wing ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Fwd: Rivet Spacing
Yes, buy a fan spacing tool they ARE worth the $$$. Put the holes over a ruler and get the 1 1/4 inch spacing. Than lay the tool on the spar/rib/flange to be marked. Adjust the tool for even spacing. You can drill through it but it does tend to hog-out the alignment holes after several thousand holes. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC --------------------- From: apple.com!hovan(at)matronics.com (John Hovan) Date: 95-09-14 14:19:32 EDT Hi All, There aren't many instructions on rivet spacing strategies for the horizontal stabilizer skins. Did anyone find a strategy that seemed to work well? I was thinking of marking the location of the rivet on the rear spar flange and measuring up 1 and 1/4 inch on the ribs all the way to the leading edge and adjusting the spacing where neccessary. Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar rivet spacing tools worth the money? thanks, John (Cable TV installed in garage. Nothing like watching Monday night football while building an airplane!) ps. Frank Justice's latest manual addition document (Removing the Fuselage from the Jig) has been published to my web page. Feel free to dowload. http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacer
Date: Sep 14, 1995
iChris Ruble writes: > The "rivet fan" is a must have tool. Don't drill holes without it. > > Chris > I assume that the fan is only for marking, not for a drill guide?? Mike Graves RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Graves <mgraves(at)ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: RV-8..when?
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Randy Writes: > > I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that > I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the > future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8? > > > - Randy (RV-6 tail) > > Randy, You might as well hang up the -6A tail feathers as decoration because the -8 uses different parts. Better yet, build a -6A and a -8, Teach your wife to fly formation and..... (yeah, dream on..) |-) Mike Graves RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Hello?
Hello RV List. Do we have a problem with the server? Testing 1,2,3... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote: > What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind > would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would > hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that > fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 > gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. > > Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives > of it? Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left. Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be applied to A/C. - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank
Text item: I am working on the RV3 prototype due to a forced landing several years ago. Left it in a real mess and am trying to get it back together for the Oshkosh Museum. Reason for crash!!....ran out of fuel!. Yes, it can happen to RVers too. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: extra fuel tank Date: 9/14/95 3:36 PM Question: What have people done as far as extra fuel tanks on rv's? I don't see a big need for this as I suspect fuel won't be a limiting factor for most. I might be interested in just a couple more gallons due to my personal RV mission. Also, since most aviation accidents are fuel starvation (I know, it wouldn't happen to anyone on the rv list though), what about something like a reserve tank. On motorcyles I've owned, I loved the reserve tank. I never worried about gas. If I ever ran it out, I just switched to reserve and headed for a gas station. For non-cyclists, the implementation was actually one tank with two pick-ups, one shorter than the other. When the fuel dropped below the level of the taller (main tank) pickup, the rider could switch to the shorter (pseudo reserve tank) pickup, and get the last 20% or so out of the tank. The nice thing about that was it was absolutely accurate, unlike a fuel gauge. At that point I knew exactly how much fuel I had left! What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives of it? Don PS Credit to my friend Wayne for helping me with the idea. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915 Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 15:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: extra fuel tank From: dg-rtp.dg.com!karl(at)matronics.com (Donald Karl) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Karl)
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
Date: Sep 14, 1995
I haven't started yet, so I don't have any first hand experience, but I was guessing that the marked elastic rivet spacing tool would be easier than one of the $37(?) fans. Fitting contours and not scratching seem to be nice. I'd think that ease of use would be simple enough with elastic or the fan that it just wouldn't be an issue. Of couse cost is almost nothing. Anybody with a fan type rivet spacer try the elastic yet? I'd like feedback. I wish I knew who to credit on the elastic, but I can't remember his name. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacer
> > > I assume that the fan is only for marking, not for a drill guide?? > > > You are correct sir. I did toy with the idea of attaching drill bushings to it but the price of the bushings was a little to much. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: extra fuel tank (fwd)
Date: Sep 14, 1995
I had thought about this quite a bit but did not implement it. I have also used motorcycles and also had a VW once and they had the reserver fuel valve. My thinking on RV's would be to have a small tank (2 or 3 gal) up high behind the firewall (between the Instrument pannel and the firewall). On the RV4, there is some room there if you don't use the optional baggage tray. With it up high, if you had a failure of the fuel pump(s) and or ran out of fuel you could turn this on and have a known quantity which should allow you a known amount of time (20 min) to get down safely somewhere. I don't know how to fill it exactly. You could use a seperate pump or bleed fuel off of the other pump to fill it. Typically, you would leave it full all the time and just recycle it every 6 mo. or so to keep it fresh. You may have to make a custom sized tank to fit. The only down side is some people do not like any fuel in the fuselage. There is also the complexity factory. I think a small tank properly located would not be a safety problem. If you ever have a forced landing, the leading edge fuel tanks are the worst possible design anyway, esp. on a low wing plane. Hit anything like a post or tree and that fuel will be sprayed everywhere. I would prefer to see Van's come up with a welded Al. tank that goes BEHIND the spar, like on Cessna's for example. It may have to be moved outboard some where you don't need as many structural ribs. They could use the 'D' or hat section type ribs like on the Luscombe or the GlasStar in the tank area. This would improve the safety and we would not have to mess with making the tanks and proseal. Herman. > > Question: > > What have people done as far as extra fuel tanks on rv's? > > I don't see a big need for this as I suspect fuel won't be a > limiting factor for most. I might be interested in just a couple > more gallons due to my personal RV mission. > > Also, since most aviation accidents are fuel starvation (I know, > it wouldn't happen to anyone on the rv list though), what about > something like a reserve tank. > > On motorcyles I've owned, I loved the reserve tank. I never > worried about gas. If I ever ran it out, I just switched to > reserve and headed for a gas station. For non-cyclists, the > implementation was actually one tank with two pick-ups, one > shorter than the other. When the fuel dropped below the level > of the taller (main tank) pickup, the rider could switch to > the shorter (pseudo reserve tank) pickup, and get the last 20% > or so out of the tank. The nice thing about that was it was > absolutely accurate, unlike a fuel gauge. At that point I > knew exactly how much fuel I had left! > > What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind > would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would > hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that > fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 > gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. > > Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives > of it? > > Don > > > PS Credit to my friend Wayne for helping me with the idea. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915 > -- -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6 ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: RV-8..when?
Date: Sep 14, 1995
RU>I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that RU>I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the RU>future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8? RU> - Randy (RV-6 tail) Hi Randy, I seem to remember some postings saying the RV-8 *DID* have RV-6 tail feathers. So you may have already started on your -8, while the rest of us await the kit . Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank
> > Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to > sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource > management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an > extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left. > > Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be > applied to A/C. > I agree with this one. I can't tell you how many times I ended up pushing a motorcycle because the reserve. I have run a tank dry in the air, and it's no big deal if you are at altitude. It's a good way to make sure you have ised the last fuel in the tank. It wakes up dozing passengers too. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re[2]: extra fuel tank
Text item: Sounds like you guys missed the message. Aircraft fuel management is different than motorcycle fuel management. Reserve does not necessarily mean emergency. Having reserve fuel is simply another resource to manage (however one chooses). An intelligent pilot would probably know when to use the reserve resource. jmw -4 On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote: > What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind > would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would > hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that > fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 > gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. > > Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives > of it? Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left. Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be applied to A/C. - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: Re: extra fuel tank From: "A. Reichert" <clark.net!reichera(at)matronics.com> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:56:23 -0400 (EDT) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael Hulse <mikeh(at)zipper.netcom.com>
Subject: MORE tool opinions
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Hi, All... I can't resist the tool chatter going on. I am almost finished with the tail feathers and here's what my opinions are: 1. For me, the rivet spacing tool that I purchased from Van's isn't straight enough to be used by itself. You still need to draw a center line, mark the distances, then drill on the line closest to the spacer mark. 2. Cheap rivet squeezers aren't worth it. I purchased a "SALE" model from US Industrial. It's in good shape, but doesn't cut the mustard as far as adaptability (yokes) and 1/8" rivets (pain). (Anyone want to purchase a rivet squeezer?) I will be getting another one soon. 3. Rivet guns: I purchased a rebuilt Chicago Pnuematic. I'm very happy with it, but I'm not experienced enough to know better. 4. Hole cutters from Avery: I got the big one for the wings, hoping to use it for the stabilizer ribs as well, but I found that I needed the small one because the big cutter wouldn't adjust small enough for the holes in the stabilizer ribs. Get them both if the budget allows. 5. Band Saw: NECESSARY. I learned that the "f" word (fabricate) is fun and not painful with the proper tools. I have an inexpensive DELTA and it works fine. I didn't have it at first... what a mess. 6. My favorite toy ... OK, here's where the sparks often fly. The swivel flush rivet set from Avery. No smiles -- no problem. I've talked to some "veteran" riveters that say you don't need them, but I'm not that good without it. 7. Vendors: Avery is GREAT. These are just some opinions from my experiences so far. I hope they help someone. Mike Hulse RV6(A) Feathers almost done. Wings coming soon. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Fan Rivet Spacer
When using the rivet spacing tool, I've found that although it does an excellent job of maintaining precise spacing it does a poor job of maintaining straight alignment. It tends to open up into an arc. I draw a straight line with a straight edge and then use the spacer for proper spacing. Bottom line: the spacer will not provide a perfectly straight line. Why doesn't someone sell a roll of masking tape 1/4" wide with 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" rivet holes drawn on the show side of the tape for use in laying out a line of rivets? Chet Razer still waiting impatiently for wing kit. P.S. I wouldn't recommend using the spacing tool as a drill guide. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Vertical Card compass
I have been planning to install a VCC. Does anyone have a fool proof installation in order to avoid the problems we've been reading about or must installations be trial and error? chet razer in sparta, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Birmingham AL RVers
I am planning a business trip to Birmingham Al. during the last week of September. I would appreciate the opportunity to visit any ongoing or finished projects in the area. Please e-mail direct to: CRazer2(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank (fwd)
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com wrote: > My thinking on RV's would be to have a small tank (2 or 3 gal) > up high behind the firewall (between the Instrument pannel and > the firewall). On the RV4, there is some room there if you don't > use the optional baggage tray. > With it up high, if you had a failure of the fuel pump(s) and > or ran out of fuel you could turn this on and have a known quantity > which should allow you a known amount of time (20 min) to get > down safely somewhere. I don't know how to fill it exactly. > You could use a seperate pump or bleed fuel off of the other pump > to fill it. Typically, you would leave it full all the time and > just recycle it every 6 mo. or so to keep it fresh. If memory serves, I think the KR or Dragonfly uses something similar. They set up what they call a "header" tank in the panel area on the right side. The fuel normally flows through this tank in operations. Some type of sight glass is used so the pilot can see the fuel level in the tank. If a fuel pump failed, the pilot could see how much fule is left in the header. - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RFlunker(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 14, 1995
Subject: Emp Time
Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took you other builders to complete yours?? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
In Ron Wantajja's Kitplane Construction - pp255-256 is a nice discussion on rivet spacing and hole drilling. There is reference to the 'elastic' rivet spacer where the user have marked off intervals of 1/2-inch. It seems like a nice idea but I went with the $37 pantographic gadget. It should be a must-have item in any builder's toolbox (opinion). Regarding the rivet layout on the HS rear spar. I was tipped off early on by another builder to be careful with the distance along the rear spar... apparently the existing rivets used to secure the flange strips tend to get in the way of the riveting of the skin onto the spar. The spar flange, as you know, is only about 5/8 or so inches wide--leaving little margin for error and lots of room for frustration when faced with an object (another rivet head) blocking your squeezer jaw's compression. Either offset the holes or allow for clearance, but you gotta do something. Good luck. Remi ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 14, 1995
From: Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
I started out using the fan spacing tool, like all the others, I found it left a rivet line less than straight, could accidentally change spacing if you didn't watch it carefully, and could scratch the skin. Saw a blurb in the RVator about the strips of plastic or aluminum with holes for spacing, tried it, and have never gone back. With this experience, I would not buy one now, but would go directly to the templates. I made one with 1 inch spacing, colored every hole with a red pilot pen (naturally) for 2 inch spacing and made another with different spacing and different colors, so I get double duty from most templates. They bend easily to fit contours. I don't know if I would trust the elastic, it probably works fine, but I know that I would go back and measure spacing to make sure. Hey, what can I say! If you really must have a fan spacing tool, let me know, I don't use mine at all any more! I'll make a deal for you! Jeff Ft. Collins, Co. RV-4 - wings... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn)
Subject: RV-8 Kits
________________________________________________________________________________ Dan RV-6 Plans 23101 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Karl)
Subject: Re: extra fuel tank
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Before we get too carried away. Sounds like I might have misled a few with my intentions (my apologies): In NO WAY did I mean to suggest a third fuel tank relieves a pilot from proper fuel management. In NO WAY did I mean to advocate running a tank dry in the air. I also did not mean to suggest that motorcycles can fly or flies can ride motorcycles. I brought this idea up as I'm surprised that more isn't being done to stop the leading cause of aviation accidents. So much money, effort, and sometimes weight is spent to improve safety relating to incidents which are far less common. Besides that, range improvement can be an added side affect for someone (such as myself) who may want it. I agree that an "intelligent pilot" SHOULD never get into the situation of relying on a backup fuel system, but I've just seen to many strange things in my life to believe that I'm invincible (wee kan argu abowt mie smarts off lyne). Don (RV6A soon) PS Monte. I would greatly appreciate information and/or drawings from your friend. >Sounds like you guys missed the message. Aircraft fuel management is different >than motorcycle fuel management. Reserve does not necessarily mean emergency. >Having reserve fuel is simply another resource to manage (however one chooses). >An intelligent pilot would probably know when to use the reserve resource. > > >> What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind >> would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would >> hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that >> fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 >> gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. >> >> Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives >> of it? > >Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to >sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource >management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an >extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left. > >Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be >applied to A/C. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Subject: Need More Fuel In Your RV?
There's always someone who wants to take a simple idea and make it complicated..... Here's the EASY was to add extra fuel to your RV. When you build your tanks, order some extra tank ribs, one left and one right. Replace the inboard wing ribs with tank ribs and make your tanks one bay bigger. You will have to find a larger tank skin but I think there is somebody out there that has one. Maybe it was Van's? Does anyone know? I wouldn't go beyond one extra bay because this will create a structual problem on the outboard sections of the wings. However, if you build you own spars you can reinforce this aera for extra strength. Anyway, as far as reserve tanks go...you already have one. Since each wing has its own tank its easy to know how much fuel you have with a little simple fuel management. Either change tanks each half hour (remember which one you started with) or run one dry and then run off the other (reserve?). I don't know, maybe this is to easy for some. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: NEW GUY
Hello all, I'm Steve Mayer, considering an RV-4, and here via an invitation from John Walsh. I hope to make a decision soon, but I've been dancing around this one for a year or two. John invited me to a builder's meeting at Cheryl Sanchez' house a few weeks ago, and I got a look at something other than a finished RV's that I'd seen at EAA fly-in's and the builder's forum at Willamantic CT two years ago. She and the others (sorry folks, I'm terrible with names!) were very nice, and I came away with plenty of helpful hints for when I get started. I'm sure I missed more than I got though! My Address is: Stephen Mayer 5 Millbury Blvd. Oxford, Ma. 01540 Phone: 508-987-1713 (h) internet: 72652.670(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Subject: Re: RV-8..when?
Van said at Oshkosh, the tail will use thicker skins (.016 --> .020) with a RV-6 "type" tail for the RV-8. This thicker skin had been available (by special request) on the RV-6. Will the final design be exactly the same ??? Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JayThe(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Subject: Introduction
At the request of Matt Dralle I'm introding myself to the RV list. My name is Jay Jenkins and I'm an airline attorney (don't hold that against me and try to restain yourself from cluttering up the rv-list with attorney jokes). In my position with the airline I do a lot of aircraft buying, selling and financing work. I own a Citabria 7KCAB, but dream about the day when that plane will be joined by an RV. I am just starting my research into building an RV (probably a -4, but the -8 looks very nice) and thought I could gain great insight by reading the messages on the rv-list. If anyone needs advice on the documents for buying or selling an aircraft or related equipment, I can help, but I won't have much to say about RV construction. You can e-mail me at jaythe(at)aol.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Subject: Re[2]: extra fuel tank
Alan is correct! I HAD a friend who landed short in his RV-4 because his engine quit due to no fuel in one tank. (There was plenty of fuel in the other tank.) He spent over a year rebuilding his -4 to get it back into the air. When he did, he still had fuel problems. His fuel system set up was NOT per VAN's plans. When his engine quit the next time, he was departing the runway and was at low altitude...... This set up a fatal crash which destroyed the aircraft. We are all human and subject to errors. I suggest that we all ask ourselves what if this fails before making any changes. Could this failure cost me my life? If the answer is yes, what can be done to prevent this from happening? I do not believe that we should stay home on the ground! More systems only make for the greater risk of mismanagement These are my opinions and are not intended to belittle anyone. Gary A. Sobek RV-6 20480 N157GS ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: extra fuel tank Date: 9/14/95 3:55 PM On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote: > What about something like this in an rv? What comes to mind > would be some other tank (a REAL reserve tank), which would > hold maybe 5 gallons. Moving a switch could gravity feed that > fuel into one of the wing tanks. Two birds with one stone, 43 > gallons instead of 38 and a reserve fuel system. > > Has anyone done anything like this and what are the negatives > of it? Oh boy. I think I don't like this at all. Why wait for your engine to sputter before changing fuel tanks? I look at this as poor resource management. If you want an auxiliary tank, fine, but use it as an extended range tank, not as an indicator as to how much fuel you have left. Yes, I ride motorcycles, too. I don't think the reserve idea should be applied to A/C. - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: "Ray Belbin" <rv6a(at)msn.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Fuel Tanks
I'm aware of a number of additional fuel tanks installed in RVs here in Australia. The long distances and widely dispersed fuel stations in North and Western Australia make this idea attractive. More than 1 RV4 here has installed an auxilary tank near the firewall (not sure which side). Of course John Johansen (Cosmopoliton RV4er) had a forward tank as one of his auxilaries. He also had fuel stored in the wing-tips, as well as the rear seat. A friend of mine built a largish (about 20 gals) tank fitting between the firewall and instrument panel in his RV6. He feels that it may have been better to install tip tanks. He spoke with Van about it, and believes that IF Van were to do it, he'd probably put the extra fuel in tip tanks instead. I said IF. I flew in this RV6 fully fuelled last year. Ray Belbin Townsville AUSTRALIA ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org>
One could try measuring the distance between the first and last rivets in a row, dividing by the maximum spacing called for in the drawings, e.g., 1.25 in., determining the minimal number of intervals implied by that, dividing that number into the measured distance, and using a hand calculator and decimal scale for the layout. Although somewhat more tedious, perhaps, this method is precise and has none of the disadvantages of other methods. All the trouble derives from the fact that we Americans work in inches and fractions and the fractions often don't fit the pathology of the problem, which is why we invented the rivet fan in the first place. The decimal system always works. One could move to the metric system, of course, but the plans are done in inches and fractions. Another approach is to avoid being so anal about it and just lay out the pattern at 1.25 in., changing the spacing to add an extra rivet, if needed, near the end of the row. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Subject: Fwd: Rivet Spacing
--------------------- Subj: Re: Rivet Spacing Date: 95-09-15 12:00:59 EDT From: CAP10ZOOM Hi Folks... Just to let you know... the RV-8 (along with the SR-20 Cirrus) is on the cover of the November 1995 issue of US Aviator. Just for those of you starved for more RV-8 photos.... (grin). Jim Campbell US Aviator magazine ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey )
Subject: Emp. Time to build
My building log shows that it took me 202.75 hours to build the emp. I am sure I missed logging some time but not more than 10-15. Ross Mickey Drilling longerons to firewall 6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Emp Time
> > Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took > you other builders to complete yours?? > I spent 270 Hrs. on the Emp. This included several mistakes. For instance, I built two trim tabs. I didn't like the first one so I started over. The second one was much better and took less time. You will find that there is a BIG learning curve in the first 100 Hrs. or so. Your first work will not reflect the time it takes to complete tasks later in the project. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Subject: re:Tank Sealing Process
>Gil Alexander asked, > Isn't there a danger of gluing in the clecos permanently into the >rivet holes? It would slow the plane down as well as looking tacky :^) > > Did you have to do anything special to make sure this doesn't happen?? >It does sound like an easier approach. I guess I have been reading to much, and not adding my two cents enough. The sealer (ProSeal or PRC) is a two part rubber compound that is very soft when cured. The cleco's can be removed from the rivet hole almost as if the rubber compound wasn't there. An added benefit is that the rubber that sticks to the cleco can provide a no-mar surface. Or, since the rubber can be peeled off of the cleco with ease, you'll understand the need to provide a clean surface on the tank ribs and skins for the rubber to seal against. ________________________________________________________________________________ loads well but fail easily in shear (twist the cleco to break the bond), while hard materials (like Epoxy) handle shear loads very well, but fail to impact loads. Jim Ayers LOM RV-3 140 mph ias 650 fpm without supercharger engaged 1000+ fpm with supercharger engaged (with O-290-G at 140 mph ias 800 fpm climb rate) A 200 Hp Pitts pilot thinks he can outclimb me (3500 fpm) but his top speed is 160 mph. Since I should have 500-600 fpm left at 160 mph, an RV-3 can still win. My new tach goes in this weekend so I can start to get good numbers. I can't wait to get the exhaust pipes changed, and reduce the air inlet opening. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Need More Fuel In Your RV?
I wouldn't go beyond one extra bay > because this will create a structual problem on the outboard sections of the > wings. However, if you build you own spars you can reinforce this aera for > extra strength. > Messing with the spar is not a good idea. Makeing the spar stronger in one area will make that section more stiff, transfering sterss to another area that was not designed to handle that load. Adding material to a stressed member can actually make it weaker by concentrating loads. The spar is designed to flex. If you reduce flex in one area, you will increase the stress on eather side of the strenghtend section. This can cause failure of the over-stressed section at a lighter load. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Need More Fuel In Your RV? (fwd)
Date: Sep 15, 1995
Nice to see you are such an expert on fuel mgt. Clearly, your proposal has problems also. Just getting the longer tank skin is a problem to start with. Running a tank dry and then switching to the other has its own problems. For example, what if the valve handle brakes off in your hand? Not impossible as I have seen some valves get very hard to turn. What if the pickup tube is plugged in the other tank or the vent is pluged to the other tank? These have all happened before. What if you picked up a load of bad fuel and it plugged the fuel strainer? What if the fuel pump fails in such a way not allow any fuel to go to the engine. This has happened also. In fact, articles have been written on bypass valves so that your elect. pump can feed the carb if the engine pump fails in such a way as to restrict the fuel flow. The idea behind the header tank is to have a seperate fuel tank with its own vent and supply line. It only needs gravity to feed. It can be plumbed in between the carb and fuel pump if you like or as another option. With a header tank, you know exactly how much fuel you have if you switch to it. You can not say that about the wing tanks, esp. at low fuel levels. Herman > > There's always someone who wants to take a simple idea and make it > complicated..... > > Here's the EASY was to add extra fuel to your RV. When you build your tanks, > order some extra tank ribs, one left and one right. Replace the inboard wing > ribs with tank ribs and make your tanks one bay bigger. You will have to find > a larger tank skin but I think there is somebody out there that has one. > Maybe it was Van's? Does anyone know? I wouldn't go beyond one extra bay > because this will create a structual problem on the outboard sections of the > wings. However, if you build you own spars you can reinforce this aera for > extra strength. > > Anyway, as far as reserve tanks go...you already have one. Since each wing > has its own tank its easy to know how much fuel you have with a little simple > fuel management. Either change tanks each half hour (remember which one you > started with) or run one dry and then run off the other (reserve?). > > I don't know, maybe this is to easy for some. > > Gary Corde > RV-6 N211GC > -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack)
Subject: Re: Emp Time
As I remember it was a little over 500 hours. don mack rv-6a >Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took >you other builders to complete yours?? > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank)
On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote: > I brought this idea up as I'm surprised that more isn't being > done to stop the leading cause of aviation accidents. So much > money, effort, and sometimes weight is spent to improve safety > relating to incidents which are far less common. Besides > that, range improvement can be an added side affect for someone > (such as myself) who may want it. > Don (RV6A soon) I agree. In the planes I fly, I find that the fuel gauges are very inaccurate and I have yet to fly in a GA plane where the clock worked. For something as important as fuel, I don't understand why we do not have very accurate fuel gauges and fuel monitoring sytems. Our current fuel management systems are no more sosphiticated than on my 1977 motorcycle. I used the mileage driven and knew at 200 miles I was out of gas (fuel gauge was broken, and reserve tank saved me from running out of fuel many times). We seem to go to extrodinary measures to clean, aloydyne, etch, prime and paint every inch of our airplanes and then we put one $15 fuel gauge and switch on the gauge to use it for both tanks! I don't mean to critize anyone out there, but this is the first time I've seen fuel managament as a topic on this list. If fuel management is so simple, then why is it one of the leading causes of accidents. No one I know would spend 3-5 years building an RV and then make a simple mistake of running out of gas, and destroying or damaging their RV, but RVers do run out of gas because there I beleive, a human factors problem with fuel management. I would like to hear of some good idea's on how to improve the accruacy of the fuel gauges and how to improve the fuel management in an RV. I think this is more important that what type of canopy or how many wheels an RV should have. Bob Busick RV-6 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: Donald Bohman <dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: re-subscribe
i have not been receiving any messages from the builders list now for approx 3 weeks. there seems to be an error in the path from the list to me. the path is indicating "dbohman(at)matronics.com", but should be to dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us please unsubscribe me from the list and then resubscribe me again so we can correct the path. thank you. dbohman(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dick McNaney <dmcnane@huachuca-sec1.army.mil>
Subject: FW: Sizes and other (RV-6)
Date: Sep 15, 1995
---------- From: Dick McNaney Subject: Sizes and other (RV-6) Date: Thursday, September 14, 1995 11:12AM I have a question for those who have picked their kits up at Vans. When one picks up a kit I understand that it is not packaged. Will a tail kit fit in the back end of a Cherokee (Jeep)? I suspect it will, nicely. How about the back end of a early Mooney? The baggage area and back seat area is quite large but the baggage door is pretty puny so it would probably have to go in the regular door. Can one land a Mooney at Vans? I think Van has a Bonanza but I don't know if he flies it home. Thanks for your help, Dick McNaney - just planning ahead PS I just dug out my Grumman Tiger Owner's manual (I have the manual, not the Tiger). The Tiger has the O360 A4K with Slick mags and a starter button. The left mag has the "shower of sparks" thing. The manual says to start on "both" mags and thats what I did successfully for two years. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino)
Subject: Fuel
I have been reading the chatter on extra fuel tanks and thought I might share my thoughts. I had a 1979 172N with long-range fuel tanks and a baggage compartment reserve tank of 18 gallons. This gave me about seven hours of fuel on board. This was only practical to use when I was going non-stop from NE PA to somewhere near Chicago. I found on long trips that the extra weight was not worth it and I need to stretch my legs about every three hours. The thought of running a tank dry before switching is rediculous. When I fly Pipers, I switch fuel tanks about every hour to keep the plane balanced. Just because you can run every drop of fuel from your tank, doesn't mean you should. As someone has already said, many things can happen when you switch tanks, so I preffer my engine running well with a way out when I switch. And lets not forget that the REGs say 30 minutes of reserve for day time VFR minimum. Fuel gauges are very inaccurate, calcualte on the high end of your fuel burn and you should never run out of fuel. The reserve tank is fine as long as you understand it is to extend your range, not to get you out of trouble. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 15, 1995
From: J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough)
Subject: verdict:Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
Well, the verdict is in. I WILL be starting my engine with the LEFT mag only. Many thanks for all the replies. It is interesting how the rotary switch has OFF-RIGHT-LEFT-BOTH I guess that's so you can go straight to both once the engine starts! Damn clever eh Ken RV6a (maybe next spring now that fall is here...;-( -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 1995
From: "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net>
Subject: NOTAM: VAN'S Webpage Downtime (Chatter)
Be advised that EARTHLINK.NET will be 'down' for system overhaul this Sunday 17Sept95 for an undetermined period. The information I received from the SysAdm is their plan to be offline for the 'morning' (Pacific Time). This is an apparent attempt to linkup a T4 connection and to revamp the news, mail, and www servers. (Hopefully they will now allow for direct access to their /cgi-bin directory.) Sorry for any inconveniences... I realize this matter should be announced by Jeremy Benedict, the WebMaster, but being on a weekend and under short notice, I took the liberty and apologize for my involvement in the affairs of Van's WWW Homepage. Please try to understand... Respectfully submitted, Remi D. Khu rkhu(at)earthlink.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Lots Of Information
I am new to the RV Group and to the Internet. I just discovered and made good use of something that other new members might not know about yet. There is a great deal of supplementary info on building, selecting tools, etc. for the RVs on the World Wide Web. To get to it, web to http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/ then select Personal Pages then select John Hovan There is some general stuff at the top of his page, but if you scroll down several screens, there are a number of files on selecting tools, cutting aluminum, building various parts of the plane (empennage, wing, fuselage) and a lot of info very worth considering. The file server might lock up from time to time and "Reset" you, but I was persistent and got all the info I wanted (which was virtually all that was there -- about 35 files). Hope this helps. Bill Costello RV-6 at the empannage bcos(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 1995
From: NRGS80A(at)prodigy.com (MR DANIEL R URBANSKI)
Subject: No messages
-- [ From: Daniel R. Urbanski * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- I sent 2 e-mail messages and neither one was posted. Am I doing something wrong. If you get this please reply. Regards, Daniel RV6a #24400 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 1995
From: russ(at)maui.net (Russ Werner)
Subject: New guy on the list
New to the list and no progress to report. Still getting the knowledge and info together to get started on something. The something may end up as an RV4 or RV8. I'm located on Maui, so if I get this thing going, you'll all have a good excuse to visit (read: help)! In the mean time, I fly for Northwest out of HNL. Aloha, Russ Another activity/project: Maui Windsurf Report (check it out!) http://maui.net/~mauiwind/MWR/mwr.html ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 16, 1995
Donald Karl
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank)
After all this talk about fuel tanks and fuel management I thought I'd add my three cents worth. I tried a fuel gauge that used a float sensor. One side worked after the fuel level dropped below 1/3; the other side didn't work even after two tries to fix the sensor. I tried a capacitance sensor system. One side never worked. The other side worked after I was below 1/2 tank. I flew to Oshkosh (well, almost to Oshkosh) on the top 20 gallons in my tanks. I never added more than 18 gallons to my tanks at fuel stops. Even a dummy can learn. I talked to Bob from DPS Instruments. Since I work in the meter department of our local utility I am somewhat aware of how digital sensors work. I had been thinking of using a fuel flow sensor and one of our meter registers programmed to accurately measure fuel flow. Possible, but not really practical. Bob told me he had already developed a fuel flow system monitor that could not only tell me how much fuel I had used but could also tell me the rate I was using it. That sounded pretty damn good to me; why reinvent the wheel. I ended up buying two gauges from him. I already had the fuel flow sensors; remember, I had intended making my own gauges. After installing the system I flew N16JA for a while. I found that the fuel gauges were accurate within 1/10 of a gallon. I, in essence, bought two of his gauges. They are much cheaper than any other brand but are still about $450 per gauge. If I were doing it all over again I would buy one gauge and use low fuel level floats in each tank. That way I would know the total fuel on board and as soon as a 'low fuel' light activated for a tank I would know which tank held how much fuel. If you order a gauge from Bob and tell him you're a member of the Puget Sound RVators he'll give you a $50.00 discount. Of course, if you do this I expect you to send us a check for a years membership. It'll only cost you $9.00 and you will get a wonderful newsletter every two months. >On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote: >> I brought this idea up as I'm surprised that more isn't being >> done to stop the leading cause of aviation accidents. So much >> money, effort, and sometimes weight is spent to improve safety >> relating to incidents which are far less common. Besides >> that, range improvement can be an added side affect for someone >> (such as myself) who may want it. >> Don (RV6A soon) > >I agree. In the planes I fly, I find that the fuel gauges are very >inaccurate and I have yet to fly in a GA plane where the clock worked. >For something as important as fuel, I don't understand why we do not have >very accurate fuel gauges and fuel monitoring sytems. Our current fuel >management systems are no more sosphiticated than on my 1977 motorcycle. I >used the mileage driven and knew at 200 miles I was out of gas (fuel >gauge was broken, and reserve tank saved me from running out of fuel many >times). We seem to go to extrodinary measures to >clean, aloydyne, etch, prime and paint every inch of our airplanes and >then we put one $15 fuel gauge and switch on the gauge to use it for both >tanks! > >I don't mean to critize anyone out there, but this is the first time I've >seen fuel managament as a topic on this list. If fuel management is so >simple, then why is it one of the leading causes of accidents. No one I >know would spend 3-5 years building an RV and then make a simple mistake >of running out of gas, and destroying or damaging their RV, but RVers do run >out of gas because there I beleive, a human factors problem with fuel >management. I would like to hear of some good idea's on how to improve the >accruacy of the fuel gauges and how to improve the fuel management in an RV. >I think this is more important that what type of canopy or how many wheels >an RV should have. > >Bob Busick >RV-6 > > >> > John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: Re: No messages
Date: Sep 17, 1995
PR>I sent 2 e-mail messages and neither one was posted. Am I doing PR>something wrong. If you get this please reply. PR>Daniel RV6a #24400 Got it! Make sure your software is set to "read own messages" if you have that option available. Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1995
From: donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack)
Subject: Re: Emp Time
After I check my records, turns out it was only 301 hours. How time flys when your having fun. Also, I have written a simple builders log program in MS Access. If anyone has an interest in it, let me know and I'll send you a copy. >As I remember it was a little over 500 hours. > >don mack >rv-6a > >>Just started the RV-6 Empennage. I'm curious as to how many hours it took >>you other builders to complete yours?? >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________ Donald Karl , rv list , abell(at)rand.org
Subject: Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank)
<199509170635.XAA22256(at)seanet.com>
Date: Sep 17, 1995
From: Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org>
Hi John, I'm building an RV-6A, still working on the empennage. I've thought some about my future fuel system, in which I had intended to include the Vision Micro VM1000 system that is said to provide both digital and analog fuel quantity displays along with low fuel remaining alert, although I confess to having no experience with it. I think fuel management is among a pilot's most important functions. Fuel starvation probably accounts for about 95 percent of engine power losses. I was very interested in your story. I'd like to talk to your friend, Bob, at DPS Instruments. Do you have a phone number for him? I like your idea of a single fuel quantity gauge and low-level warning lights for the two tanks, but two gauges would be fine, too. Actually, the VM1000 is said to provide both digital and analog fuel quantity displays along with low fuel remaining alert. I wonder if it's too sophisticated to be reliable. Thanks for your posting, and thanks for your help contacting DPS. Jack Abell (Hopefully, another N...JA aircraft one of these days) p.s. Ammeter in the meter department? Yeah, right, of course. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Sable Technology, Inc." <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Subject: New subscriber
Date: Sep 17, 1995
You asked for a post re my RV interest... I began the RV-6 project right after OSH in 1993. I worked until Jan 94 = on the emp. and finished it (except for the faring on the bottom of the = rudder). It took about 280 hours to get to that point. I've sweated = the fiberglass tips but lucked out when a Glassair builder and I moved = into the same hangar. Unfortunately for the project it was about that = time that I quit my job and started a new business - so the project got = put on hold. I am just now getting started again. I have the wings on = order and have the hangar re-tooled. =20 The RV was initially going to be a x-country IFR airplane but in the = past few months my company purchased a Tiger (then sold it and purchased = a Bonanza). The plan now is to make it a light weight fun machine. I = do, however, wake up in a new world every day so there's no telling what = it will be when I finish (in 2005?) =20 The project is in Northwest Arkansas. I'm sorry to say that we are the = state with the fewest RV projects underway, but there is an RV-6A begin = built down the highway a few miles and its builder and I share a lot of = information. He's a great guy who is also rebuilding a Whitman Tailwind = and a Kitfox. =20 Glad to see a spot on the net for RV lovers. I'm always looking for = people who are building and travel frequently to Oklahoma, Kentucky, = Iowa, and will consider going anywhere within 500 miles for the weekend. = We'll be happy to host anyone coming through NW Ark. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1995
ammeterj.seanet.com!ammeterj(at)matronics.com (John Ammeter)
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Fuel Management (Re: extra fuel tank)
Donald Karl , rv list , abell(at)rand.org > >Hi John, > >I'm building an RV-6A, still working on the empennage. I've thought some >about my future fuel system, in which I had intended to include the Vision >Micro VM1000 system that is said to provide both digital and analog fuel >quantity displays along with low fuel remaining alert, although I confess >to having no experience with it. I think fuel management is among a >pilot's most important functions. Fuel starvation probably accounts for >about 95 percent of engine power losses. I was very interested in your >story. I'd like to talk to your friend, Bob, at DPS Instruments. Do you >have a phone number for him? > >I like your idea of a single fuel quantity gauge and low-level warning >lights for the two tanks, but two gauges would be fine, too. Actually, the >VM1000 is said to provide both digital and analog fuel quantity displays >along with low fuel remaining alert. I wonder if it's too sophisticated to >be reliable. > >Thanks for your posting, and thanks for your help contacting DPS. > >Jack Abell (Hopefully, another N...JA aircraft one of these days) > >p.s. Ammeter in the meter department? Yeah, right, of course. > DPS Instruments can be reached at 12475 Central, Suite 361, Chino CA 91710. The phone number is 909-606-0403. Bob advertizes in Sport Aviation; I just looked at the May '95 issue and he also carries some other products now. Give him a call. He'll not only give you a good price but will also help you in whatever way you may need. When he was first starting his company he sold a fuel gauge to one of our RVators. The guy had some trouble installing the gauge and Bob was ready and willing to fly up here to Seattle to take care of it. How many companys are that interested in customer service?? If you talk to Bob tell I said 'hi!'. Any, ya, I am in the meter dept. Makes it real interesting when I answer the phone 'meter, Ammeter'------- John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dougweil(at)pressenter.com (Doug Weiler)
Subject: Jon Johanson
Date: Sep 17, 1995
Fellow Listers: Does anyone know the status of Jon Johanson's around-the-world RV flight? I assume he has completed it by know, but I have heard nothing to confirm this. Doug doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com>
Date: Sep 17, 1995
Subject: Intro...
Hi everyone. I just joined the list, so here's who I am: Bryan Welch, technology researcher at AT&T Bell Labs, currently finishing up a USUA training program and should finish PPL requirements by December. I finished ground school years ago, but I got distracted too much until now moving around the country chasing jobs and education. I'm hoping to start a kit in spring, and right now I'm trying to help local builders, learn building, and pick exactly what I'm going to build. So far I keep coming back to an RV-6. Here's my general priorities: 1. Cross-country with one passenger - up to 900 mile trips 2. Leisure flying - something to wander the Rocky Mountains 3. Aerobatic capable Anyway, I read the FAQ and a bunch of the old articles and still have a few questions I hope someone can help me with. What's a ball park price for a completed RV-6? The kit is about 11K, but the engine seems to be the killer. I'm hoping several people have completed RV-X kits and can give me some rough numbers. Has anyone used a auto engine, like one of the converted Suburu engines, in an RV-X? The aerobatics might make this difficult, but I don't know and wanted to ask. thanks, -Bryan -- Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan@.dr.att.com - N0SFG Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1995
From: cn755(at)freenet.carleton.ca (Catherine Lamport)
Subject: Wing Tanks
I am submitting this question on behalf of my husband who is busy in the basement constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME (equilavant to an A&P in the States), employed full time as a flight engineer on a Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector in this area so yes he is busy. Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material (cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present in some wiping cloths. Tanks A Lot! Cathy and Dale Lamport Nepean, Ontario, Canada RV6A 23861 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 18, 1995
Subject: RV-8 Article.
Jim, Any plans in the near future to test fly the RV-8 and publish a "preliminary review" in US Aviator ?? While I understand that Van is still doing test flying, an early review by a independent test pilot would be interesting to your readers. (well, one for sure) Thanks for a great magazine, Dick Slavens Napa, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ >Hi Folks... >Just to let you know... the RV-8 (along with the SR-20 Cirrus) is on the >cover of the November 1995 issue of US Aviator. Just for those of you starved >for more RV-8 photos.... (grin). >Jim Campbell >US Aviator magazine ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 18, 1995
Subject: RV-8 Cost
Jay, I think, ready to fly cost for a VFR model is going to be in the $30,000 - $40,000 range. The "old-timers" here might have a better handle on this. You are right, the engine/prop combo is a big cost adder. The good news in this area is that Superior Air Parts, is going to offer a complete O-360 "engine in a box", by next year. All new parts, including case, to be assemblied by your local engine shop. Cost looks like 1/2 - 2/3 the normal factory price. Will have to see how this compares to Van's discounted engines. Used engines to me are looking like a poorer bargin with each passing year. With the increase in homebuilding activity the demand for used engines is very high. But then again, being at the right place at the right time helps. Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey)
Subject: Re: Jon Johanson
Hi All, Jon arrived in OZ on about the 8th of Sept, I had dinner with him and a number of other homebuilders last week here in Canberra, He was just heading back home to Darwin from Melbourne. Jon had nothing but praise for the hospitality provided those of you on this list and other homebuilders in the US and England. An interesting article appeared in our (SAAA) Sport Aviation Magazine about his trip, If your interested I will find out what the copyright is on it and send it to this list. On behalf of Jon, Thanks!! John Morrissey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Jon Johanson AARNet_Gateway Date: 9/17/95 8:01 PM Fellow Listers: Does anyone know the status of Jon Johanson's around-the-world RV flight? I assume he has completed it by know, but I have heard nothing to confirm this. Doug doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1995
From: Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu>
Subject: Re: Jon Johanson
> Does anyone know the status of Jon Johanson's around-the-world RV flight? I > assume he has completed it by know, but I have heard nothing to confirm > this. Yes - he has arrived back in Australia. Details are forthcoming on Van's WWW page. Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu Van's "WebManager" http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: "Richard Welch" <rgwelch(at)msn.com>
Subject: RE: Ski's in an RV-6 (again)
---------- From: aol.com!RV6junkie(at)matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 1995 1:56 PM Subject: Ski's in an RV-6 (again) I think everybody is getting some bad advice regarding puting skis in an RV. My thoughts: 1. You CAN NOT run skis through the lighting holes in the wings. How are you going to get them into your wings??? For those of you that have not attached your wings to fuselage yet be advised; if you don't run your push rods in the wings before attaching them to the fuselage first...you can not get 'em in. With this in mind...how will you ever get ski's in these very same holes??? 2. If you run the skis in the tail cone you will have an aft CG problem. Think about it...One pound at the tail has the effect on CG of about 100 pounds in the baggage compartment (that's a guess). Not to mention that you have your bell crank and push rods back there. I wouldn't mess around trying to make the tail cone a baggage area. 3. External ski tubes may work fine on a 75 mph cub but I have to beleive that they will have an adverse aerodynamic effect on an RV at 180 mph. Additionally, I don't know about you, but I would hate to get to my destination and fine two empty brackets where my skis once were! Look-out below. I haven't taken any measurements, but if you did not install the center support (some people don't for leg room, but they should because it's structual) from the IP to the fuel selector, and you have electric flaps, you might be able to run the skis from the battery box to the aft baggage bulkhead. A pair of 180's are just short of 6' so I'm sure they will fit this way. Maybe you might want to use shorter skis when using the RV for transport. Or, if you insist on skiing on boards that are to long to fit into your RV, maybe you should rent an aircraft that they FIT INTO! Before anybody starts to play with an aft CG, do yourself a favor...call Van's and get some "professional" help. They know better than anybody else where the end of the control envelope is. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC I saw an RV-6 yesterday that has a an aluminum cone running from the bulkhead in back of the seats to the tail. The plane was at Auburn Municipal Airport. The owner and plane are from Medford, OR. He said that with skis in the back, he is within C.G. limits. The tube was on the right side and his canopy tipped up forward. R.G. Welch ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1995
rv-list(at)matronics.com
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Intro...
>Hi everyone. I just joined the list, so here's who I am: >Bryan Welch, technology researcher at AT&T Bell Labs, >currently finishing up a USUA training program and should >finish PPL requirements by December. I finished ground >school years ago, but I got distracted too much until now >moving around the country chasing jobs and education. > >I'm hoping to start a kit in spring, and right now I'm >trying to help local builders, learn building, and pick >exactly what I'm going to build. So far I keep coming back >to an RV-6. Here's my general priorities: > >1. Cross-country with one passenger - up to 900 mile trips >2. Leisure flying - something to wander the Rocky Mountains >3. Aerobatic capable > >Anyway, I read the FAQ and a bunch of the old articles and >still have a few questions I hope someone can help me with. > >What's a ball park price for a completed RV-6? The kit is >about 11K, but the engine seems to be the killer. I'm >hoping several people have completed RV-X kits and can give >me some rough numbers. > >Has anyone used a auto engine, like one of the converted >Suburu engines, in an RV-X? The aerobatics might make >this difficult, but I don't know and wanted to ask. > >thanks, >-Bryan > >-- >Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan@.dr.att.com - N0SFG >Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it > Let me try to help you. I built an RV-6 using a O-320 E2A out of a Cherokee 140. The engine was used; 2400 total time, 400 SMOH. I paid $3500 and put $500 of work into it. That price isn't likely to be found today. Expect to pay about $6500 to $8000 for an engine with 400 to 800 SMOH. An engine core alone is worth about $3500 now. The completed price, painted professionally, of my RV was about $25,000. That included a good VFR panel with Loran, Com and Transponder with mode C. The prop is wood and I have an $800 fuel gauge system. One of our builders spent about $19,000 building his RV-4. Another builder spent about $175,000 on his RV-6A ( with wood prop). Expect to spend somewhere between $25.000 and $30,000 if building with a used engine. If you want to have a new 180 HP engine with a CS prop and IFR instruments you will need over $40,000. You get what you pay for. A neighbor of mine is building an RV-6A with a Chevy V-6 (4.3 liter) engine. He is working with another builder and both of them plan to finish their airplanes in about 6 to 12 months. I've been following the projects pretty closely (obviously) and I think they have a good chance of building and flying show winning aircraft. I plan to use an engine like what they will use in the aircraft in my Jensen Healey. Have you ever thought what the chances are that a Lotus engine, SU carbs and Lucas electrics will all work at the same time?? I have had the car serviced at the mechanics and gone straight to the emission check station; will it pass, not a chance-----. Maybe if I use the Chevy engine with modern electonics and fuel injection (plus about 50 more HP) I will have a real going machine. Maybe not as fast as the RV but more fun on the ground. John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 17, 1995
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Wing Tanks
>I am submitting this question on behalf of my husband who is busy >in the basement constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME (equilavant >to an A&P in the States), employed full time as a flight engineer >on a Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector in this area so >yes he is busy. > >Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and >his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling >his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material >(cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where >the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents >in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present >in some wiping cloths. > >Tanks A Lot! > >Cathy and Dale Lamport >Nepean, Ontario, Canada >RV6A 23861 > I used soap and water and a scotch-brite pad. Thoroughly clean the aluminum as well as roughen it and the proseal will adhere to it. Be very careful that you do not touch it with your hands if they are oily or greasy. You can use acetone to remove the proseal before it 'sets' but after it has cured nothing will touch it. As far as how 'sticky' the proseal is; well, I like to say it will even stick to butter. Maybe somewhat of an exaggeration but not by much. Using Acetone or MEK to 'clean' the aluminum isn't good enuf. Those chemicals will certainly lift any oil from the metal; however, when the Acetone or MEK evaporates the oil will be redeposited right back where it came from. Not good enough; you need to REMOVE the oils. Soap and Water will do that. John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 18, 1995
Subject: The Fuel Thing
Although I did bring up the possibility of running one tank dry I feel obligated to mention that I do not practice this method of fuel management myself and, in fact, I have never flown one tank dry. My point was that there is no better fuel management tool than a wrist watch/flight timer/hobbs meter (whatever). Just pay attention! If you are uncertain about your fuel level in flight the most reasonable fuel management would be to land and buy fuel. Once again, this seems simple to me but people run out of fuel every day trying to push it a little to far. Oh, I just thought of another way to keep your routes short so you don't run out of fuel. Drink four cups of coffee before you fly...keeps you alert and guarantees that you'll be landing in two hours! Natures calling....got to go. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey )
Subject: Fwd: FW: Sizes and other (RV-6)
I have picked up the emp, wing and fuse kits from Vans in my 1993 Taurus wagon with no problem. There are some long pieces which I had to strap to the top on a roof rack. The Jeep has a shorter rear end so I would question if you could get eveything in. You can not fly into Vans and pick this stuff up. The factory is about a mile from their airstrip. When they put together a "will-call" the factory puts all the material on a rolling dolly. To get it to the airstrip, they would have to crate it up. You may be able to rent or borrow a car and shuttle the parts back and forth but this seems risky. I would also question being able to fit the large pices of alum. sheet in a plane. Ross Mickey 6-A fuse 605 Bulkhead installation ---------- From: Dick McNaney Subject: Sizes and other (RV-6) Date: Thursday, September 14, 1995 11:12AM I have a question for those who have picked their kits up at Vans. When one picks up a kit I understand that it is not packaged. Will a tail kit fit in the back end of a Cherokee (Jeep)? I suspect it will, nicely. How about the back end of a early Mooney? The baggage area and back seat area is quite large but the baggage door is pretty puny so it would probably have to go in the regular door. Can one land a Mooney at Vans? I think Van has a Bonanza but I don't know if he flies it home. Thanks for your help, Dick McNaney - just planning ahead PS I just dug out my Grumman Tiger Owner's manual (I have the manual, not the Tiger). The Tiger has the O360 A4K with Slick mags and a starter button. The left mag has the "shower of sparks" thing. The manual says to start on "both" mags and thats what I did successfully for two years. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Scott Hathcock <scotth(at)hpltbz.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Open Sliding Canopy
Date: Sep 18, 1995
I have learned a great deal form reading the mail on this list. I was wondering about the consequences of having a canopy open in flight. Has anyone had experience with the sliding canopy coming open in flight? (Information on the tip-up would also be interesting.) Thanks Scott Hathcock RV6 Tail Kit started. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: RE: Ski's in an RV-6 (again) (fwd)
> From: aol.com!RV6junkie(at)matronics.com > > 3. External ski tubes may work fine on a 75 > mph cub but I have to beleive > that they will have an adverse aerodynamic > effect on an RV at 180 mph. How do you mean "adverse?" We've been running external baggage pods on F-16s for years. > Additionally, I don't know about you, but I > would hate to get to my > destination and fine two empty brackets where my > skis once were! Look-out > below. That's why you design a decent hard-point for mounting. Don't just slap something together and hope it holds. - Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!DSlavens(at)matronics.com wrote: > You are right, the engine/prop combo is a big cost adder. The good news in > this area is that Superior Air Parts, is going to offer a complete O-360 > "engine in a box", by next year. All new parts, including case, to be > assemblied by your local engine shop. Cost looks like 1/2 - 2/3 the normal > factory price. Will have to see how this compares to Van's discounted > engines. Will they insist on assembly by an A&P? What about those who wish to assemble it themselves? - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Rivet Spacing -Reply
I can't remember what I did but I will comment on the rivet spacing tool. I really like mine. It maked it very easy to make the spacing uniform. Many times the rivit spacing van calls out will only roughly work. But if you take the tool and compress it slighly reducing the spacing slightly it makes for nice even spacing between rib holes that are always fixed. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: SKIING
>>I think everybody is getting some bad advice regarding >>puting skis in an RV. Has anyone created hard points on the RV series for mounting something like a scaled down version of those WWII fuel tanks. (as a kid I always thought they were bombs. :-) The reason I ask, is maybe something similar to this could be created for bagage like skiis. Hey, If you can put floats on an RV and have it fly, I doubt it's impossible to put an external bagage compartment under the fuselage. ........or you could buy some fold up skiis. (hehe) -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Wing Tanks -Reply
I used high quality MEK and rags made from old clothes that I washed before using. I also used food grade cheese cloth. Randall mentioned some kind of Scott chemically pure paper towel but I could not find them stocked any place. >>> Catherine Lamport 09/17/95 09:21pm >>> I am submitting this question on behalf of my husband who is busy in the basement constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME (equilavant to an A&P in the States), employed full time as a flight engineer on a Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector in this area so yes he is busy. Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material (cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present in some wiping cloths. Tanks A Lot! Cathy and Dale Lamport Nepean, Ontario, Canada RV6A 23861 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: James Caufield <caufield(at)sequent.com>
Subject: Engines in a box
Date: Sep 18, 1995
> > > On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!DSlavens(at)matronics.com wrote: > > > You are right, the engine/prop combo is a big cost adder. The good news in > > this area is that Superior Air Parts, is going to offer a complete O-360 > > "engine in a box", by next year. All new parts, including case, to be > > assemblied by your local engine shop. Cost looks like 1/2 - 2/3 the normal> > factory price. Will have to see how this compares to Van's discounted > > engines. > > Will they insist on assembly by an A&P? What about those who wish to > assemble it themselves? > > ...and what about an O-320 'in-a-box'? Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Engines
Does anyone have any information regarding that German diesel engine? (Zoeche or something like that) Is there an E-Mail address or some kind of Internet address (WWW, FTP, etc..) associated to this place? -Thanks for the help -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MIKE_PARKINSON@HP-Australia-om1.om.hp.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Re: Wing Tanks -Reply
rv-list(at)matronics.com Item Subject: Wing Tanks -Reply Hi, I used to be a LAME and often had to seal tanks with PRC which I beleive is another brand name for ProSeal. I always cleaned the area with copious amounts of MEK with clean cotton rags. I don't know about using soapy water, most soaps leave some sort of residue and if it is animal based it will certainly leave a fatty deposit. Regards Mike P RV6 downunder in Australia ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Wing Tanks -Reply (Non-HP-jim.schmidt/HP-PaloAlto,unixgw1////////HPMEXT1:mail.mei.com!jim.schmidt@ matronics.com) Date: 19/9/95 7:42 AM I used high quality MEK and rags made from old clothes that I washed before using. I also used food grade cheese cloth. Randall mentioned some kind of Scott chemically pure paper towel but I could not find them stocked any place. >>> Catherine Lamport 09/17/95 09:21pm >>> Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material (cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present in some wiping cloths. Tanks A Lot! Cathy and Dale Lamport Nepean, Ontario, Canada RV6A 23861 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 18, 1995
From: giant!carl
Subject: FW: Sizes and other (RV-6)
I picked up my emp kit at Van's unpacked and it should easily fit into your Jeep Cherokee. As far as the Mooney, I don't know. The kit contains: Various spars each about 4 feet long. The 2 HS reinforcing strips each about 5 feet long. A bundle of skins about 4 feet long, 2 feet wide, 8 inches deep. A stack of wood v-frame jig parts about 1 1/2 foot by 1 foot by 4 inches high. A medium box of ribs, misc parts, and hardware. You should be able to land your Mooney at Sunset airstrip. I'm sure they would deliver the kit to the airport but you would have to let them know this. Their offices, factory, etc are a mile or so away, only their prototype facility and hangar are on the airport. If you need more info on exact dimensions or other help let me know by direct email. Carl Weston carl(at)stt3.com RV-6 23876 finishing up emp kit wing kit on order. > I have a question for those who have picked their kits up at Vans. > When one picks up a kit I understand that it is not packaged. Will a tail > kit fit in the back end of a Cherokee (Jeep)? I suspect it will, nicely. > How about the back end of a early Mooney? The baggage area and back seat > area is quite large but the baggage door is pretty puny so it would probably > have to go in the regular door. Can one land a Mooney at Vans? I think Van > has a Bonanza but I don't know if he flies it home. > > Thanks for your help, > Dick McNaney - just planning ahead ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com
Date: Sep 18, 1995
Subject: Main wing spar
I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. I have a flush spacer block under the channel base of the Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any suggestions? ___ * UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader '[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 18, 1995
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
>Jim, > >Any plans in the near future to test fly the RV-8 and publish a "preliminary >review" in US Aviator ?? While I understand that Van is still doing test >flying, an early review by a independent test pilot would be interesting to >your readers. (well, one for sure) > >Thanks for a great magazine, > >Dick Slavens Napa, CA Yes... I've put in a call to Van, but did not get a hold of him the other day. I do understand that aircraft is still in flight test and expect that Dick will make sure that all is "just right" before he lets us snoopy journalists on board, but I assure you that the minute I fly the beast, I will post ALL here. I'm looking forward to this one.. this aircraft interests me personally as well as professionally. Jim Campbell US Aviator ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
Dick, Thanks for the reply. I understand the concern about ability to build one of these. I've no doubt that I can, but what I was more curious about is whether Superior would ship one of these to a homebuilder, or only to an A&P. - Alan On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 DSlavens(at)aol.com wrote: > Alan, > > If you do not have a data plate on your Lyc. or Cont. engine, you can call it > experimental. This will allow anyone to assemble or repair the engine. I'm > not sure if this is a good idea, unless you already have a high skill level > in this area. My thought was to do as much of the work myself, and have my > local IA advise & inspect. > > Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your > Superior Air Parts engine. > > Dick > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
Alan, If you do not have a data plate on your Lyc. or Cont. engine, you can call it experimental. This will allow anyone to assemble or repair the engine. I'm not sure if this is a good idea, unless you already have a high skill level in this area. My thought was to do as much of the work myself, and have my local IA advise & inspect. Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your Superior Air Parts engine. Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Wing Spar Riveting
question: I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. I have a flush spacer block under the channel base of the Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any suggestions? ___ I spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together. Couple of possibilities come to mind: 1.) Are you using a 5x rivet gun. The 3x even at high pressure is barely powerful enough - if you are banging away at each rivet for 3-5 seconds your rivet could be floating up (down) because the whole thing is vibrating so much. 2.)If you are using the 5x (or 4x) gun and have a solid base ( which you have ), then the only other possibility is that the spar is not "preloaded" enough - when you start riveting the weight of the spar is on the factory head. 3.)Do you have all the spar strips securely fastened ( with a 10-32 bolt) where the ribs will go? There have been numerous articles published on at least half a dozen different way to accomplished this task. I have a 3x gun and spent 3 weeks figuring out how to anneal rivets (properly) and making it work with the 3x gun - the results were marginal. I finally took my hydraulic press (the $99 12 ton import) added a 4x4 with a hole to stabilize the ram ( the flat rivet set is on this side) and squeezed them in place without any problems. rich klee 6A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: Rick Solana <102131.2407(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: IFR Instrument panel
I'm just starting on my RV-6a fuselage, and am wondering several things about putting in an IFR panel in a homebuilt: 1- Do the avionics have to be TSO'd? How about the engine instruments? 2- What are the FAA inspection requirements? (I heard they are pretty extensive for an IFR GPS in certified aircraft.) 3- Can the engine instruments be the "for homebuilts only" kind? (like from Vision Microsystems.) 4- Anyone have any good ideas on antenna plaacement? (e.g., I hear the wing tip may not be good for GPS because the wire run is too long for the antenna.) Thanks for any and all ideas. Rick Solana RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Fuel qty.
The following is what I set up on my RV-6A: Two fuel gages, Van's Aircraft, one for the left tank and one for the right tank. The way the sender floats are set up from Van's drawings, you will never know the exact amount of fuel in the tanks when full. In fact you will draw from each tank for quite a while before you even get an indication of fuel usage due to the dihedral effect of the wings. Therefore the most important information I needed from the fuel gages was an arbitrary limit that I set for myself which was the 5 gallon mark I put on the gages. To get that mark, I had the aircraft ready to fly except for fuel. Then I put a measured 5 gallons of fuel in each tank and marked the gages at that point. One thing I forgot to do was level the aircraft ( the fuselage sits nose up with the nose wheel inflated) so in flight I really have slightly less than 5 gallons at the 5 gallon mark. I had to forget something! Someday I may empty the tanks and level the aircraft and get the correct 5 gallon mark. In the meantime when both tanks are near the 5 gallon mark I know it is time to refuel. I also have the VM 1000 engine instrument gauge which shows fuel flow per hour and shows fuel remaining plus the number of hours of flight remaining at the current fuel usage. However I still rely on my 5 gallon mark on the fuel gages as the real amount remaining. Keeping track of the fuel remaining by estimating the fuel burn per hour versus the time in flight is still the best way to keep from running out of fuel, providing you know the amount of fuel you started out with. Hoping this will help. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 DSlavens(at)aol.com wrote: > Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your > Superior Air Parts engine. My recollection is that the current Superior Air Parts 0200-in-a-box has a Superior data plate on it. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________ from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com>
Subject: bolt torques
Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts? Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts? Thanks, Dan Boudro RV- #3933 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RFlunker(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Log Program
Several days ago someone offered a MS Access program for his builders log. Please contact me directly at my email below. I'm interested in knowing more about it, yet don't want to clog up the RV-list. My email is: RFLUNKER(at)aol.com Thanks Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Main wing spar
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com wrote: > I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars > between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first few > attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using the Avery tool > with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, the factory heads > are well seated. As I continue to drive, an unacceptable gap develops at the > factory head. I have a flush spacer block under the channel base of the > Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any > suggestions? I'd want to make sure the entire weight of the spar is resting on the rivet you are setting in order to hold it down. Also, the rivet should require only light finger pressure to insert and seat in it's hole. Ream the hole a little bit if required. I also had problems with factory head gaps on my first spar. On my second, I started using a couple of 50 lb. sandbags on top of the spar to keep the rivet seated. I used a 2 lb. hammer with the Avery tool, rather than a rivet gun. 3-5 blows set the rivet perfectly nearly every time. What size of rivet gun are you using? I think a 4X is the minimum in practical terms for driving the spar rivets. To salvage the rivets which had a gap under the factory head, I used the avery tool with a #6 universal head die, and something like a 7/16 socket underneath the bad rivet. Whacking in the factory head reseated it, and then I flipped the spar over. Now the gap was on the shop head side, as expected. I then gave the shop head a couple of additional blows with a flat die and everything looked good. Of course, you have to be careful not to overdrive the shop head. Cheers, Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: Derrick Aubuchon <74722.1560(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Introduction
Hello everyone!! Here goes my introduction: First the boring stuff...me. I spend most of my time these days working on my project but still find time to earn a living as an air traffic controller at Bay TRACON, CA. My project is an RV4 #2825. I started about four LONG years ago and I think I am beginning to see a hint of light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. Most of the construction is complete...in fact as it sits now, the airframe is pretty much all in one piece and on the gear. I have an engine which was buil-up by Lycon. It is an O-320 and is waiting patiently in my home for when I decide is the best time to install it. Well, thats about it. If anyone has any particular questions in mind, I would be more than happy to attempt an answer. Happy building!! Derrick L. Aubuchon 74722.1560(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: re: bolt torque and hole sizes
>Dan Boudro asked; >Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts? > ________________________________________________________________________________ AC43.13-1A, Chapter 5, Figure 5.2 provides the following "recommended torque values for nut-bolt combinations"; Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut AN 310 AN 320 AN 310 AN 320 AN 315 AN 364 AN 315 AN 364 AN 363 NAS 1022 AN 363 NAS 1022 AN 365 MS 17826 AN 365 MS 17826 NAS 1021 MS 20364 MS 17825 MS 20364 MS 17825 MS 20365 MS 21045 MS 21045 MS 20365 NAS 1021 MS 20500 NAS 679 NAS 679 NAS 1291 Torque Limits Torque Limits Torque Limits Torque Limits IN.-LBS. IN.-LBS. IN.-LBS. IN.-LBS. Min. Max. Min. Max. Min. Max. Min. Max. Bolt AN3 20 25 12 15 AN4 50 70 30 40 AN5 100 140 60 85 NAS 1303 25 30 15 20 NAS 1304 80 100 50 60 NAS 1305 120 145 70 90 >Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts? Chapter 5, Section 1, Paragraph 227d titled Bolt Fit states - - - Generally, it is permissible to use the first lettered drill size larger than the normal bolt diameter, except - - - . (For light-drive fit (reamed) applications and where NAS close-tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used, a bolt fit is not identified.) Jim Ayers LOM RV-3 Now the hard part. How do I keep it flying, while making changes to the airframe? (new gear leg/cowl intersection fairing, improved exhaust system, reduced engine cowl cooling air inlet, etc.??) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Wing Spar Riveting
>However my >first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I'm using >the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, >the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an >unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. > > > spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together. >ouple of possibilities come to mind: I solved my problem by purchasing a 4 lb hammer (A bad hammer?) at Home Depot. Now one left spar finished with perfect rivets. I know have a right arm like Arnold Swartzenegger. ___ * UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader '[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RFlunker(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Rib Lightening holes- Emp
I'm contemplating not cutting the lightening holes in the HS Ribs. I realize this will cost me a few ounces, but since I don't have a slow enough drill press to do it with I'm hoping to save a few bucks as well. Anyone see any problem with not cutting them out. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Wing Spar Riveting
>However my >first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I'm using >the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, >the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an >unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. > > > spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together. >ouple of possibilities come to mind: I solved my problem by purchasing a 4 lb hammer (A bad hammer?) at Home Depot. Now one left spar finished with perfect rivets. I know have a right arm like Arnold Swartzenegger. ___ * UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader '[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
Start the engine on the left mag only. If you don't, the engine can fire the right mag and reverse the rotation. If you are lucky, only the starter gear will shear. If not, the cost can be very high. Jim Cone Working on finishing kit. ________________________________________________________________________________ *** KAIWAN Internet Access ***
From: rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker)
Subject: RVator?
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Uhhhh...not that I want to seem anxious or anything, but has anyone received their RV'ator yet? I seem to remember a post saying they were off to press the first week of Sept....RV-8 information fever has hit me bigtime . Rob. * SLMR 2.1a * ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
Alan & Dave, I'm going to call Superior Air Parts in the morning and get more details on this engine purchase plan. I'll E-mail whatever information I receive. When I was talking to the salesman at Oshkosh and told him the application was for a RV, he did not describe any limitations to sales to A&Ps only. So, has anyone received their Aug. issue of "RVator" yet ?? Dick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu>
Subject: Re: RVator? (non-tech)
> Uhhhh...not that I want to seem anxious or anything, but has anyone > received their RV'ator yet? I seem to remember a post saying they were > off to press the first week of Sept....RV-8 information fever has hit me > bigtime . > Rob. Yessir - my copy came Monday. I live in Portland, about 40 miles from where they were mailed. I believe they are now sent 3rd (I think) class, so keep that in mind. There is no postmark date, so I don't know when they were mailed for sure, but it was most likely the last part of last week. Jeremy -- jbenedic(at)uofport.edu Van's "WebManager" http://www.earthlink.net/~rkhu/vans/ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: bolt torques
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote: > Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts? That's easy. AC43-13 has a nice little table. (BTW, anyone building or repairing an airpllane really needs to have a copy. We may be building homebuilts, but even homebuilts must be built according to "Acceptable Methods, Techniques and Practices". Bolt Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut AN3 20-25 ft/lbs 12-15 ft/lbs AN4 50-70 30-40 AN5 100-140 60-85 The torque values for NAS bolts will also vary depending upon diameter. > Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts? TO quote AC43-13: "Generally, it is permissable to use the first lettered drill size larger than the normal bolt diameter, except where the AN hexagon bolts are used in light-drive fit (reamed) applications and where NAS close-tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used. So the drill sizes for AN bolts would be: AN3 #12 AN4 F AN5 O Right offhand, I don't know what the hole sizes should be for NAS close-tolerance bolts. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 19, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rib Lightening holes- Emp
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 RFlunker(at)aol.com wrote: > I'm contemplating not cutting the lightening holes in the HS Ribs. I realize > this will cost me a few ounces, but since I don't have a slow enough drill > press to do it with I'm hoping to save a few bucks as well. > > Anyone see any problem with not cutting them out. > I don't see a problem, but on the other hand: 1. even a drill press that turns 500rpm should be able to do the job. 2. There are several other places (aileron and flap spars, fuel tank inboard end ribs come to mind right away) where you'll also need to use a fly cutter. Since you are going to have to do it eventually anyway. . . Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________ from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back (right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had a problem after that. Dan Boudro RV-4 #3933 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rich Klee <rich_klee(at)ccm.fm.LOCAL.intel.com>
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Subject: Spar riveting
question: I am currently working on my wing spars. I,ve riveted the spacer bars between the main spar weg and doubler with no problems. However my first few attempts at the 3/16 rivets have not been pleasant. I;m using the Avery tool with an air rivet gun. When I begin driving the rivets, the factory heads are well seated. As I continue to drive, an unacceptable gap develops at the factory head. I have a flush spacer block under the channel base of the Avery tool. the apparatus is sitting flat on a concrete floor. Any suggestions? ___ I spent way too much time figuring out how to rivet my spars together. Couple of possibilities come to mind: 1.) Are you using a 5x rivet gun. The 3x even at high pressure is barely powerful enough - if you are banging away at each rivet for 3-5 seconds your rivet could be floating up (down) because the whole thing is vibrating so much. 2.)If you are using the 5x (or 4x) gun and have a solid base ( which you have ), then the only other possibility is that the spar is not "preloaded" enough - when you start riveting the weight of the spar is on the factory head. 3.)Do you have all the spar strips securely fastened ( with a 10-32 bolt) where the ribs will go? There have been numerous articles published on at least half a dozen different way to accomplished this task. I have a 3x gun and spent 3 weeks figuring out how to anneal rivets (properly) and making it work with the 3x gun - the results were marginal. I finally took my hydraulic press (the $99 12 ton import) added a 4x4 with a hole to stabilize the ram ( the flat rivet set is on this side) and squeezed them in place without any problems. rich klee 6A fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org>
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Re: New guy on the list
RW> New to the list and no progress to report. Still getting the RW> knowledge and info together to get started on something. The something RW> may end up as an RV4 or RV8. RW> I'm located on Maui, so if I get this thing going, you'll all have a RW> good excuse to visit (read: help)! In the mean time, I fly for RW> Northwest out of HNL. RW> Aloha, Russ, Do you know Skip Pease who has a most beautiful RV-4 based at Hilo? That airplane was originally built here in St. Paul, MN area by one of our MN Wing members. I helped ship it out to HI and came out to Hilo to help with the reassembly. That is a major story in itself!! Doug ... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org>
Date: Sep 19, 1995
Subject: Re: Wing Tanks
CL> his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material CL> (cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where CL> the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents CL> in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present CL> in some wiping cloths. CL> Tanks A Lot! Cathy: I am just in the process of building my fuel tanks and thus far have found this process to work fine: 1. Use 240 grit wet/dri sandpaper to rough all the the surfaces that Proseal is desired to adhere to (inner skin surfaces, rib flanges, drain and fuel tank cap flanges, etc.) 2. I used good old Coleman Lantern fuel (naptha) as Van recommends for the cleaning solvent. Clean, clean, and clean again until your towel shows no residue. I found a new Scott paper towel at the local grocery called "Scott Clean". It is quite thick compared to a regular paper towel, is very strong, and is totally lint free. They are about twice as expense as a "regular" paper towel, but seems to do the job just fine. 3. Lacquer thinner works just fine to clean up clecoes and errant globs of Proseal. I lined all of the areas in the tank with high quality 3-M 2" wide masking tape that I did not want Pro Seal on. Makes for a nice neat job. Remove the masking tape as the ProSeal begins to set. I haven't finished my tanks yet to know whether they will leak, but I am being very, very generous with the Proseal and it seems to stick like crazy. Doug ... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: RVator?
Still waiting... - Alan On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Rob Acker wrote: > > Uhhhh...not that I want to seem anxious or anything, but has anyone > received their RV'ator yet? I seem to remember a post saying they were > off to press the first week of Sept....RV-8 information fever has hit me > bigtime . > > Rob. > > * SLMR 2.1a * > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Subject: lightening holes in HS
You need to cut at least one in the left root rib for the trim cable. I cut mine using a wood boring bit in a hand drill. I believe the diamater is 1 3/8. It's not a very sophisticated solution and you can expect to throw awaway your $3 drill bit after about 10 holes but it works fine. John ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu>
Subject: Fuse crate
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Can anyone tell me how big the shipping crate is for the fuselage kit (RV-4)? I'm trying to beg/borrow/steal a truck to pick mine up from the shipper. Thanks... Dave Hyde nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Subject: NAS Bolt hole size.
In addition to AC 43.13-1A, additional information can be found in AC65-9A. Here is where you can find the info on hole size for close tolerance bolts. I believe in chapter 5 (Hardware) it states that NAS and other close tolerance bolts should be reamed to 0.0015" clearance. The AC65-9A, AC65-12A, and AC65-15A were all written as A&P Text books. They contain additional info beyond the AC 43-13. I agree with Jim and Dave that AC 43.13-1A is a must have. Gary A. Sobek -6,20480 N157GS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: This is the Duck, over...
Hi rv-list gang, long time no talk to. Met a few of you at the homecoming this year. I'm still 'abstaining' due to workload, but wanted to get in contact with a builder that was coming for a Van's builder's class. He was going to be staying out near me, just wondering if he's still coming and I didn't save his addr. Keep building! Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369 (220hrs) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
Does anyone make a switch in the following configuration? : OFF - RIGHT - BOTH - LEFT - LEFT/START You could also put together a delay circuit to delay the ungrounding of the right mag a short time after the switch comes off of the START position. This could be more trouble than it is worth (circuitry, reliability, etc.) - Alan | Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder | | Studying preview plans! #24179 | | http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html | On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote: > Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put > one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked > ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did > not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every > once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back > (right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter > gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually > gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had > a problem after that. > Dan Boudro > RV-4 #3933 > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
> From nmia.com!pla_ems(at)matronics.com Wed Sep 20 09:53:45 1995 > X-Deleted-Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 07:32:36 -0600 (MDT) > From: Plains Electric EMS <nmia.com!pla_ems(at)matronics.com> > > Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put > one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked > ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did > not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every > once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back > (right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter > gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually > gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had > a problem after that. > Dan Boudro > RV-4 #3933 > Sounds like you have some sort of problem with the left mag. 85W had similar problems. We went through the entire ignition and starter systems and replaced everything that was even slightly suspect. She fires up after two blades _every_ time now (cold or hot). The idle is smoother also. Problems included: Old ignition wires (real old) Tired mags (burnt contact spring in the cap and a cracked coil) Cable from the master relay to the starter had several broken strands. Problems like hard starting can be resolved if you don't mind spending some time and $$. IMHO the results are well worth the effort. There's nothing like hitting the starter and getting "GrrrRrrrWaroom" every time. Part of the excellent starting is due to what an "ol' timer" showed me. Forget the primer, pump the trhottle two or three times/ leave it open 1/4" just before you hit the starter and a Lyc. will start every time. Timing is everything. Chris Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: barr(at)netcom.netcom.com (Keith Barr)
Subject: Re: NAS Bolt hole size. (fwd)
Date: Sep 20, 1995
CCGATE.HAC.COM!gasobek(at)matronics.com says: > I agree with Jim and Dave that AC 43.13-1A is a must have. If anyone is interested, I have 43.13-1A & 43.13-2A in electronic format. They are zipped together, and you can pick them up on my netcom anonymous ftp account. Go to ftp.netcom.com, /pub/ba/barr, and get AC4113.ZIP. They are in DOS txt format (with those stupid ^Ms), so you will have to run dos2unix on it if you are using a real machine (Linux of course :^) ___________________________________ _____ | Keith Barr barr(at)netcom.com \ \ \__ _____ | COM-ASMEL-IA-A&IGI \ \ \/_______\___\_____________ | Westminster, Colorado, USA }-----< /_/ ....................... `-. | http://chinook.atd.ucar.edu/~barr / `-----------,----,--------------' |___________________________________/ _/____/0 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb)
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
Am I missing something... In an "experimental" you can do anything you want including assembling an engine out of a box. The "only" ramification I can see is a 40 hour versus 25 hour flight test period and that (25Hr) is only available if you use a certified prop which implys a constant speed unit in the case of RV's.... Richard ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: Russ Werner <70263.242(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: New guy on the list
Doug, Yes, I got to see the airplane at the last EAA fly-in on Maui. He related the gory details of the shipping trauma! I had heard about that one before, but had not seen it before that. Nice machine, and I could see no evidence of the repair. Aloha, Russ PS, I am writing this from your backyard, as I am in MSP doing my annual training/checks at NATCO! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Fuse crate
Text item: Yea, call Van's. 503-647-5117 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Fuse crate Date: 9/20/95 10:47 AM Can anyone tell me how big the shipping crate is for the fuselage kit (RV-4)? I'm trying to beg/borrow/steal a truck to pick mine up from the shipper. Thanks... Dave Hyde nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 10:47:33 EDT Subject: Fuse crate From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com> 1) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DSlavens(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
I talked to the Superior Air Parts sales group today. They expect to have a O-320 and O-360 model parts available in 1996. This will include cases, crankshafts, camshafts, cylinder assemblies, etc. That's the upside. The bad news is that they do not intend to sell all of the internal (parts inside the case). Dick Slavens Napa, CA waiting for RV-8 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Fuse crate (fwd)
Date: Sep 20, 1995
It will fit in the back of an extended Van as that is how I moved mine. I don't know the specific demensions. Just call the shipper and they can probably walk out an measure it. A pickup would work fine. > Subject: Fuse crate > Author: windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com at Internet_Gateway > Date: 9/20/95 10:47 AM > > > Can anyone tell me how big the shipping crate is for the fuselage kit (RV-4)? > I'm trying to beg/borrow/steal a truck to pick mine up from the shipper. > > Thanks... > Dave Hyde > nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu > > Text item: External Message Header > > The following mail header is for administrative use > and may be ignored unless there are problems. > > ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. > > Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] > X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 > Content-Type: Message/rfc822 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 10:47:33 EDT > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list) > Subject: Fuse crate > From: Dave Hyde <windvane.umd.edu!nauga(at)matronics.com> > Received: by windvane.umd.edu > Message-Id: <199509201444.HAA27857(at)netcomsv.netcom.com> > Received: from windvane.umd.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4. > 1) > Precedence: bulk > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Received: by matronics.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > Received: from matronics.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) > Received: from hermes.intel.com by relay.jf.intel.com with smtp > -- -------------------------------------------------------- Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831 ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801 mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Plains Electric EMS
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: bolt torques
> > >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote: > >> Does anyone have a suggested torque for AN 3,4,5's and NAS bolts? > >That's easy. AC43-13 has a nice little table. (BTW, anyone building >or repairing an airpllane really needs to have a copy. We may be building >homebuilts, but even homebuilts must be built according to "Acceptable >Methods, Techniques and Practices". > >Bolt Steel Tension Nut Steel Shear Nut >AN3 20-25 ft/lbs 12-15 ft/lbs >AN4 50-70 30-40 >AN5 100-140 60-85 > >The torque values for NAS bolts will also vary depending upon diameter. > >> Also the proper drill diameters for the bolts? > >TO quote AC43-13: >"Generally, it is permissable to use the first lettered drill size >larger than the normal bolt diameter, except where the AN hexagon >bolts are used in light-drive fit (reamed) applications and where >NAS close-tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used. > >So the drill sizes for AN bolts would be: > >AN3 #12 >AN4 F >AN5 O > >Right offhand, I don't know what the hole sizes should be for >NAS close-tolerance bolts. > >Best Regards, >Dave Barnhart >rv-6 sn 23744 > Before you try to tighten an AN3 bolt to 20 to 25 foot/pounds I suggest you look up the correct torque values again. Don't feel bad, I tried to tighten my engine mount bolts to somewhere around 150 foot/pounds; after the steel washers started to swage out from under the nut I called my local EAA Tech Counselor. He delicately suggested that maybe they meant 'inch/pounds'. If you divide the above figures by 12 I think they will be in a more realistic range. I'm a Tech Counselor now so I get to pontificate and expound with the best of them. ------ John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
>Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put >one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked >ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did >not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every >once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back >(right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter >gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually >gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had >a problem after that. >Dan Boudro >RV-4 #3933 > I've had this same problem. Haven't stripped any starters yet, luckily. I agree with Dan that two spst switches would solve the problem. If I was doin' it again I'd seriously think of using switches instead of that very expensive switch. If you do use the 'bendix' switch be sure to install the 1/2" jumper on the back of the switch. If you don't, the right mag won't be grounded while starting. John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CRazer2(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 20, 1995
Subject: Engine Selection
I'm beginning to look ahead to engine selection and would appreciate some hard facts from current RV6/6A flyers. What kind of fuel economy and cruise do you experience with your current 0-360 or 0-320 with fixed pitch props. If you respond please indicate which engine, prop, and whether a 6 or 6A. thanks Chet Razer in Sparta, IL ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
>Alan, > >If you do not have a data plate on your Lyc. or Cont. engine, you can call it >experimental. This will allow anyone to assemble or repair the engine. I'm >not sure if this is a good idea, unless you already have a high skill level >in this area. My thought was to do as much of the work myself, and have my >local IA advise & inspect. > >Also, I doubt if Avco Lycoming is going to sell you a "data plate" for your >Superior Air Parts engine. > >Dick For a $5,000 savings, I would be very willing to put my own nameplate on it, call the manufacturer "Alexander", and start a new log book. That's exactly what we are doing with our airframes. It's the Lycoming data plate (and all that goes with it, good and bad) that costs a lot of those big engine bucks!!! ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 would sell my run-out O-320 if SAP sold an O-360 kit. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 20, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Skis in a RV6 - followup
Rv-listers, A follow-up from the original "skis in a RV6" posting that I entered for a builder in Orange county. He has elected to go for a "belly cargo container" approach after getting an offer of fiberglass assistance from one of the glass homebuilt kit suppliers. He thinks a shallow belly pan extending from the firewall to the baggage bulkhead should do the trick, and not screw up the CG. I did forward the more sensible comments :^) to him, and will forward any others you may send directly to me. I will keep the list appraised of his progress, but but it will be several months before the next report. ... on his behalf .... thanks for the comments .... Gil Alexander ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: "Gregg L. Sloan" <gsloan(at)CapAccess.org>
Subject: Re: Fuse crate
When I bought my RV6A fuselage in 1994 the create was 97" x 37" x 16" high, weight was about 285 lbs. Call Van for the numbers; they have this creating stuff down to a science. Gregg Sloan_____gsloan(at)capaccess.org_____Herndon, Virginia__USA RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: Superior Air Parts 360-in-a-Box
Oh, boy. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Yes, what you say is true. I ask because I don't know what Superior's position is on selling their ???-in-a-box to a homebuilder who is NOT an A&P. Kind of like tha auto parts company who won't sell you a part if they know you will use it in a homebuilt aircraft. - Alan On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Richard Bibb wrote: > Am I missing something... > > In an "experimental" you can do anything you want including assembling an > engine out of a box. The "only" ramification I can see is a 40 hour versus > 25 hour flight test period and that (25Hr) is only available if you use a > certified prop which implys a constant speed unit in the case of RV's.... > > > Richard > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
> > I've had this same problem. Haven't stripped any starters yet, luckily. I > agree with Dan that two spst switches would solve the problem. If I was > doin' it again I'd seriously think of using switches instead of that very > expensive switch. If you do use the 'bendix' switch be sure to install the > 1/2" jumper on the back of the switch. If you don't, the right mag won't be > grounded while starting. > > John Ammeter > RV-6 N16JA > Flying 5 years > > I think you guys have some other problem. What everybody is describing can result from slow cranking. The starter should crank the engine very enthusiasticly. If it cranks slow there is some other problem. I can't explain what a huge difference there is in the starting of 85W now that we replaced a few parts. Try puting a voltage meter between the battery post and the terminal on the starter. It should read very close to 0 volts when cranking. If there is _any_ voltage indicated then there is some loss in the connection from the battery to the starter. The starter that Lycoming uses is a industrial truck starter. it's used on _much_ larger engines and it draws alot of current. You need to have a beefy cable from the battery to the starter. The longer the cable is the bigger it should be. Even on short runs the little #4 cables that some builders use to save pounds are just to light. Get a big "#1" or even "0" cable and I bet the problem will go away. Fix the problem not the symptom. _______________________________________________________________________ | | | ( ) | | ( ) ( ) Chris Ruble | | /\ )( ) Cranks like a fan now! cruble(at)cisco.com | | / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 | | / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W | |/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC | |________\___\___!_ ! _!________________________________________________| ________________________________________________________________________________
From: karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Karl)
Subject: compasses for RVs
Date: Sep 21, 1995
What do most people do for compasses in RV's? I ask from a tip up canopy perspective, but maybe others would be interested from a more general point of view. I've already read the posts about the vertical card compasses and no need to rehash that. Some possibilities seem to be: Attatch to canopy? Pedestal mount above panel. Panel mount. The already discussed vertical card. Not knowing any better, it seems like panel mount is attractive to me. Are the corrections for magnetic interference much worse here than a foot or so higher using pedestal? Any other cons? Thanks, (RV6A tail kit purchase in a few months, probably) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: VM-1000
Gil: So far I really enjoy the VM-1000. I now have 150 hours on the system and replaced two egt probes under warranty. I have had excellent service from Vision Microsystems. The fuel flow system is standard, only the fuel quantity system is extra and it requires installation in the tanks as you build them. It would be possible to retrofit tanks but that would require access holes for each bay on the aft side of the tanks. If I had to build the tanks over, I would put the access panels in at the start. It is much easier to proseal the tanks that way and eventually I will have to do it as I sloshed my tanks after prosealing. I am helping a local builder with his RV-4 and we installed the access panels from the start. Live and learn! The standard fuel flow system shows fuel remaining, time to empty tanks at the present fuel burn, fuel remaining, fuel added and present fuel flow. If you install the system on a fuel injected engine, you would have to figure some way to account for the fuel that is returned to the tank. A standard carb does not need that provision. There are a number of items on the VM-1000 that I have not mentioned that I didn't know were part of the system such as total engine time. I still haven't read all of the manual but will have to one of these days. I priced the separate engine instruments that I wanted for my project (new) and they came out close to the VM-1000 unit so I opted for the all in one concept. As I have said before, so far so good. John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Newbe
Hello all, I'm a newbe on this list, but haven't given a quick bio yet, so here go's. I'm currently building the left wing tank on my RV6a. (and having a great time!!!) Location: Grants Pass, Oregon Time spent on project: 1 year which equates to an unknown amount of hours (actually the hours are logged, I'm just afraid to look) :-) Occupation: Computer programmer by degree and aircraft enthusiast by desire Engine of choice: Undecided, but probably a new O-360 from Van's (but really curious about that German made Diesel... Zoeche or something like that) Instruments: Basic VFR Paint Type: Un-educated and therefore undecided Bomb Load: None :-) That's all folks..... glad to see a group of email'n rv'ators! -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Flight characteristics
Being an uneducated pilot in the area of aerobatics, could someone give me a basic lesson as to the do's and don'ts in an RV (assuming proper training) My understanding is that rolls, loop, basic inverted maneuvers (assuming inverted configuration on tanks/engine) are allowed. What type of maneuvers are considered 'too-stressful' for an RV to handle. Can I do a tail slide..... can I... can I? (hehe) I've always wanted to be in an aircraft during a tail-slide. How about a hammerhead? snap roll? Don't think I have the intention of getting in my newley built RV and trying these maneuvers that I have no clue as to proper execution. I just want to be aware of the manuevers it can perform when learning aerobatic maneuvers with an instructor. (Know what to learn) -Thanks and P.S. I'm not building the RV to become an aerobatic pilot, I would just like to let my girl do the things she can do. (am I getting to attached?) -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Starter Problems
I caught a quick blurb about a started turning the engine 'enthusiatically' enough. I haven't been following the discussion, so maybe my comments are way out to lunch. (which is what I'm gonna be in a few minutes... hehe) I've had a similar problem with automotive engines, and have found that if the started gears aren't aligned properly with the flywheel, the starter will bind and turn the engine over very slowly or eratically. I don't have much (any) experience with Lycoming starter assemblies, but it might be worth checking. I've seen it be something as crazy as a good piece of dirt stuck between the engine case and the starter housing causing the starter to be slightly cocked causing the gears to bind. -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn)
Mine showed up yesterday, in NJ. Worth the wait. But still havn't seen an interior shot. Dan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez)
Subject: (fwd) Malcolm S. Forbes, Jr. is aviation-unfriendly
As Steve Forbes makes his announcement for 1996 presidential candidacy tomorrow, please keep something in mind. He is the man that is trying to drive the owners of Somerset Airport, a privately owned public-use airport in NJ, out of business. The airport happens to be in his backyard (a pretty big one that accommodates his personal helicopter). Of course, the airport was built before any of the housing developments in the area. He has sent his lawyer to almost every county and township board meeting and hearings, influenced them to pass regulations on airport use some of which have been determined to be against federal regulations, has refused to carry out FAA mandated safety regulations on his own property (trimming tree tops). His platform theme includes "pro-growth, pro-opportunity" for businesses. This is the man who sent a letter to the owner of the airport that he would not fight the airport if the owner agreed to never "grow" the airport. The hottest issue so far has been the plan to build some hangars on airport property which has been labeled as an "expansion" of the airport and opposed by the group that Steve Forbes backs. The hypocracy starts at his own backyard. The airport owners have spent a fortune to fight back the rules that Steve Forbes backed township keeps imposing. This is not a political issue. I have no political agenda. I have no idea if Steve Forbes will make it anywhere in his political ambitions. I have no relationship with Somerset Airport other than being a satisfied customer. I just don't think we need people like Malcolm Forbes to be anywhere near where public policies are made. There is no need to blindly believe anything I have said above. It is all documented in newspapers. If you think there is an "other" side to the story, at least investigate the issues before you use that generic excuse as a rationalization for supporting Steve Forbes. If you have or know a magazine/newspaper that is interested in this story, let me know and I will try to get you in touch with a local free-lancer that has documented this affair in his aviation columns. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)NtwkServ.MTS.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Rivet Spacing
On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Chris Ruble wrote: > > Does anyone have a strategy that worked well and produced an aesthetically > > pleasing rivet pattern on the finished skins? Also, are those 37 dollar > > rivet spacing tools worth the money? > > > The "rivet fan" is a must have tool. Don't drill holes without it. I'm afraid I disagree. My expensive rivet fan tool has sat on the shelf since the first time I used it. I find it to be heavy and awkward, it scratches the aluminum, it is too easy to bump it against something which immediately changes my carefully adjusted spacing, and the two holes in the center of the tool don't have the same spacing as the rest of the holes, at least on my tool. What I use are a half dozen 1" by 24" strips of cardboard (cost: $0.37) each with a different spacing marked on it. Basically they are just custom made rulers. They are cheap, easy to use, don't scratch the aluminum, never get out of adjustment and if I need to adjust the spacing of a rivet or two to clear some obstacle, I just eyeball it. Frankly, of all the airplanes I have looked at up close and admired, I just never noticed whether the rivet heads had perfectly consistant spacing or not, but, to each his own. Cheers, Curt (obviously destined never to win Best of Show) Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
Jim I'm a little disappointed with what I've read about the RV-8 in the latest RVATOR. Van states that an RV-4 with same HP should fly as fast or faster. I'm not sure I see the advantages to the RV-8 (unless your are too big for the RV-4), and I am curious as to why you are so interested. For pure performance I think the king is still the RV-3 and if you want to take someone with you, the RV-6 is best. Anyway my opinions can be changed based upon new iedas or perspectives. So I ask this question in the spirit of improving my knowledge. Bob Busick RV-6 On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!CAP10ZOOM(at)matronics.com wrote: I will post ALL here. I'm looking forward to this one.. this aircraft interests > me personally as well as professionally. > > Jim Campbell > US Aviator > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rib Lightening holes- Emp
I have cut holes as fast as 800-900 rpm, it is a little hairy, but it worked and nothing flew around the shop while doing it. How slow is your drill? Bob Busick RV-6 On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 aol.com!RFlunker(at)matronics.com wrote: > I'm contemplating not cutting the lightening holes in the HS Ribs. I realize > this will cost me a few ounces, but since I don't have a slow enough drill > press to do it with I'm hoping to save a few bucks as well. > > Anyone see any problem with not cutting them out. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com>
Date: Sep 21, 1995
Subject: Re: Flight characteristics
On Sep 21, 10:13am, Steve Day wrote: } Subject: Flight characteristics } Being an uneducated pilot in the area of aerobatics, could someone } give me a basic lesson as to the do's and don'ts in an RV } (assuming proper training) } Please post your replies here, Steve. I'd like to know the same info. } My understanding is that rolls, loop, basic inverted maneuvers } (assuming inverted configuration on tanks/engine) are allowed. } What type of maneuvers are considered 'too-stressful' for an RV } to handle? } } Can I do a tail slide..... can I... can I? (hehe) } I've always wanted to be in an aircraft during a tail-slide. } There's a maneuver called the falling-leaf involving carefully controlled stalls. I had an uncle who did them in a biplane. Are they possible in an RV? I too know little about the performance of aerobatics, but it's a definite goal, so I want to plan in advance. -Bryan -- Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: New Member info
This message introduces Fred & Carolynn Hiatt. We are building an RV-6A and have completed all of the empenage except for the elevaters. Our wing kit is here ready to start. Contact information is: Fred & carolynn Hiatt 40 Birnamwood Dr. Burnsville, MN 55337 Home tele: (612) 894-7642 Office tele: (612) 894-3824 FAX: (612) 894-4235 email: hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu We have our own engineering consulting company, and do business worldwide. Fred is an ex-USAF jet fighter (F-86F), and an ex-USN helicopter pilot, now holding a Ph.D. in Solid State Physical Electronics. Fred has approx. 3200 hr. flight time. Carolynn is finishing up her private pilot instruction. We are building our RV in our garage, that is heated and airconditioned, (it's a tuckunder, so it was reasonably easy to do). BIG NEWS FLASH -- Our oldest son just won first place in the world championship radio controlled helicopter competition recently held in Japan. We could use some advice. We are interested in becoming part of an airpark community (somewhere). We are looking at Texas, and Virginia. If anyone has any suggestions for us please send them. We've built additions to our home, built model helicopters, and done just about everything else, but this is our first airplane. So far it has been very enjoyable, and our neighbors keep on top of our project as if they were doing it themselves. That's about it, this is long enough already. Glad to be here! F & C Hiatt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
> Jim > I'm a little disappointed with what I've read about the RV-8 in > the latest RVATOR. Van states that an RV-4 with same HP should fly > as fast or faster. Makes sense. All other things being equal (Which they won't be) with a bigger RV8, the Weight/HP ratio will be worse. Of course, the RV8 was designed so you could tuck that IO360 you couldn't cram into your RV6 under the cowl. -- "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs "Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: DPS Fuel Flow Meters
I wrote recently about how good the fuel flow meters sold by DPS Instruments were. Unfortunately, I found out that DPS has probably gone out of business. I tried calling them and found the phone number is now someone else. The operator has no listing for DPS, either. I'm not real happy about this; hope I have no problems with my fuel flow sensors. At least, if the problem is in the flow meters themselves I know where to purchase replacements. If anyone in the Chino CA area can find out what happened to Bob Johnson of DPS let me know. I can tell you his phone number is NOT 909-606-0403 or 909-606-0706; those people seem friendly but that may not last if too many people call them asking for Bob Johnson. John Ammeter RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 21, 1995
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: your mail
I believe the article on Forbes Jr. should be attributed to Venky from the rec.aviation newsgroups. - Alan ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Sep 21, 1995
Subject: Re: compasses for RVs
Karl, I installed my compass in the panel right next to the canopy eject handle and it works great. Just have your welder friend remake the handle out of non-magnetic stainless! Also, route your strobe power supply wires and position light wires AWAY from the compass. They draw enough current to create fields strong enough so you can't adjust the compass properly. (Whiskey compass) Jim Stugart RV6/6A Austin, TX Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Uudecode?
I am new to the group (1 month) and have introduced myself. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of UUDECODE? I thought I has software that would handle this, but it looks like it won,t. Thanks Bill Costello RV-6 working on empennage Chicago bcos(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: John Brown <jmbrown(at)aimnet.com>
Subject: Corrosion
Date: Sep 21, 1995
I have a question on corrosion. Several pieces of 2024 have some "spotchy" corrosion from sitting around to much and getting a little wet. I would say the no singe area is more than 1/4 in len or width. and is usually on the edge and not in the center etc. Is it safe to assume that if I can scotch brite the spots out and then prime the piece everything will be ok?? Thanks in advance for the reply. -------sig cut here------- jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: dougm@physio-control.com (Doug Medema)
Subject: Pitot location
I'm in the process of building my left wing. I have mounted (clecoed) all the ribs to the main and rear spar and am looking at positioning the tube for wiring and the plumbing for the pitot. I placed my tie-down in the standard position and would like to move the pitot outboard one more bay to minimize interference with the tie-down bracket. Is there any reason why the pitot should not be moved outboard one rib bay? I can't imagine that the airflow would be any different, but I am nowhere close to being informed about airflow patterns around the wing. Thanks! Doug Medema Spars done, left wing proceeding. Rv-6A, #21140 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: Three Cheers for Avery
Folks -- some of you will recall I was looking for a tool vendor last week (or the week before), and based on the recommendations of the listers, I went Avery. I called them at 8.00 am, and by 10.00 the same day, they had the "RV Tail Tool Kit" on its way. Everything arrived in perfect shape the next day. The shipment was beautifully packed, and complete, with the exception of two, small, currently non-critical items that will be shipped this week. Without hesitation I recommend them, and will use them again. Thanx to Judy and Bob, and to the listers that made the recommendation! Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Bought The Tools, Finished Reroofing The Workshop, Attending Course Next Week" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: New Air Racing Class? (Chatter)
Folks -- just returned from a few fun filled days at the National Championship Air Races in Reno...for those of you that haven't heard yet, Bill Destefani in Strega won, John Penney in the Rare Bare was second, and Dego Red (forgot pilot's name, sorry) came third. Excellent show if haven't seen it already. Hint: if you go, pay the $15-20 bucks and get a pit pass, it's worth it. Back to the matter at hand. Despite my enthusiasm for the event, I can't help but think that air racing is dying slowly. What appears to be needed is an inexpensive, robust airframe that can go fast, and doesn't cost a lot, and with lots of examples flying that demonstrate pretty consistent performance...hey, wait a minute, didn't I just describe the RVs? My point, of course, is whether or not anybody has ever contemplated closed course racing in an all RV class? I'm sure that this is likely to raise some eyebrows, but should spark some good debate!! Cheers... Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
> > Makes sense. All other things being equal (Which they won't be) with a > bigger RV8, the Weight/HP ratio will be worse. Of course, the RV8 was > designed so you could tuck that IO360 you couldn't cram into your RV6 under > the cowl. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > -- Not so. It's been done. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com
Date: Sep 22, 1995
Robert Busick
Subject: Re[2]: RV-8 Article.
Hmmm, those of us building RV-4s think that if you want to take someone with you, the RV-4 is best. Nothing like sitting on the centerline while doing acro. Sorry, couldn't resist. :-) Mike Pilla RV-4 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RV-8 Article. Date: 9/21/95 7:54 PM --- snip --- For pure performance I think the king is still the RV-3 and if you want to take someone with you, the RV-6 is best. Anyway my opinions can be changed based upon new iedas or perspectives. --- snip --- Bob Busick RV-6 On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 aol.com!CAP10ZOOM(at)matronics.com wrote: I will post ALL here. I'm looking forward to this one.. this aircraft interests > me personally as well as professionally. > > Jim Campbell > US Aviator > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: RV-8 Article
>> I'm a little disappointed with what I've read about the RV-8 in >>the latest RVATOR. Van states that an RV-4 with same HP should fly as >>fast or faster. I'm not sure I see the advantages to the RV-8 (unless >>your are too big for the RV-4), and I am >>curious as to why you are so interested. For pure performance I think >>the king is still the RV-3 and if you want to take someone with you, the >>RV-6 is best. Anyway my opinions can be changed based upon new iedas or >>perspectives. So I ask this question in the spirit of improving my >>knowledge. What did you expect, when you make a plane bigger and heavier with the same basic design, you generally don't go faster on the same amount of horsepower. I think the RV-8 is there for those who want an airframe that can handle more 'umfff' with a bit more comfort. I really believe the RV series is a great line-up of aircraft for 'total performance' aircraft. Each fits a different need. -Just my opinion -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: bolt torques
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, John Ammeter wrote: > > > > > >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote: > > > > Before you try to tighten an AN3 bolt to 20 to 25 foot/pounds I suggest you > look up the correct torque values again. Don't feel bad, I tried to tighten > my engine mount bolts to somewhere around 150 foot/pounds; after the steel > washers started to swage out from under the nut I called my local EAA Tech > Counselor. He delicately suggested that maybe they meant 'inch/pounds'. If > you divide the above figures by 12 I think they will be in a more realistic > range. Did I say ft/lbs??? OOOOOOPPPPPPPSSS!!!!! I meant inch/pounds. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com>
Date: Sep 22, 1995
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
Just to throw my 2 cents in... I think that the RV-8 has the same appeal as the RV-6 and 6A have. = Some people will be willing to sacrifice performance for relative = comfort, companionship, and ease of handling (in the case of the = -6A). If you want all out "total performance" then the RV-3 seems = to be the choice. Some people want to take companions and want to = fly a tandem. One of the problems with the RV-4 is that it is a = bit small in back (actually, I don't know from personal = experience, just from what I have heard). If you want a = comfortable tandem with a more reasonable useful load then the = RV-8 seems to fit the bill quite nicely. If the -8 has nearly the = same flying qualities as the -4 and has a better CG range, then my = opinion is that the loss of a few knots won't really matter that = much. Look at the -6A. A few knots haven't stopped many people = from building or flying one. As well, I have only met one -6A = owner and he loved that way his plane flew. I have a romantic interest in centerline seating. Very "fighter" = like. At the flying club at NAS Memphis we had a couple of = T-34A's. What a blast, even if they were pigs in the air. I = couldn't tell. I doubt that the -8 would feel less spritely than = the T-34. I would also like the option of taking someone with me. = I have some pretty big friends that would probably exceed the CG = limit in the RV-4. tw An opinionated wannabe that wishes his life and finances would = support an airplane of any sort, but especially an RV-4/6/8 = (sigh...).= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Avery
>>Folks -- some of you will recall I was looking for a tool vendor last week >>(or the week before), and based on the recommendations of the listers, I went >>Avery. I called them at 8.00 am, and by 10.00 the same day, they had the "RV >>Tail Tool Kit" on its way. Everything arrived in perfect shape the next day. >> The shipment was beautifully packed, and complete, with the exception of >>two, small, currently non-critical items that will be shipped this week. >>Without hesitation I recommend them, and will use them again. Thanx to Judy >>and Bob, and to the listers that made the recommendation! I've ordered (lots and lots) of tools from them and they have been 100% consistent. I recommend them to anyone. (I just wish the darn things were less expensive) :-) -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Corrosion
>I have a question on corrosion. Several pieces of 2024 have >some "spotchy" corrosion from sitting around to much and getting a little >wet. I would say the no singe area is more than 1/4 in len or width. >and is usually on the edge and not in the center etc. > >Is it safe to assume that if I can scotch brite the spots out and then >prime the piece everything will be ok?? John, Should be OK, but I think this would be an ideal application for the full acid etch/alodine treatment before priming. The acid etch will ensure that any microscopic-sized corrosion spots will get cleaned and won't be able to 'grow' under any paint coat you may put on later. I had the same problem after my garage flooded (only an inch or two) after a winter rain, and the bottom of my shipping box got wet. ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 > >Thanks in advance for the reply. > > >-------sig cut here------- >jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL >jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com >Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee" >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvrqa.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
Date: Sep 22, 1995
________________________________________________________________________________ Full-Name:
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: RV-8 Article.
:> Makes sense. All other things being equal (Which they won't be) with a :> bigger RV8, the Weight/HP ratio will be worse. Of course, the RV8 was :> designed so you could tuck that IO360 you couldn't cram into your RV6 under :> the cowl. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :> -- : : Not so. It's been done. : : Chris Yes, it has been done. But just because you can do it doesn't mean it is a good idea. In My Opinion, building an RV4 with more than 180 HP is a lot like parachute jumping without a reserve chute. You can do it many times with nothing bad happening. You can even point to your past successes as proof of how safe it is. But the bottom line is that it is not very safe because the airframe just wasn't designed for it. The RV8, on the other hand, was designed for it. The price of the stronger structure is more weight. The benefit is an airframe that can handle the load without becoming overstressed and bending a spar in flight, and without having control flutter at the bottom of a dive, and without having the firewall rivets come loose after just a few hundred loops and rolls. -- Randy Stockberger randys(at)cv.hp.com Corvallis, OR 503-715-3589 -- ________________________________________________________________________________ from socrates.nmia.com by nmia.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4)
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: bolt torques
I just assumed in/lbs so no problem. You don't need to divide the numbers by anything, just change ft/lbs to in/lbs. Thank you all for the info. Dan On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, David A. Barnhart wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, John Ammeter wrote: > > > > > > > > > >On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote: > > > > > > > Before you try to tighten an AN3 bolt to 20 to 25 foot/pounds I suggest you > > look up the correct torque values again. Don't feel bad, I tried to tighten > > my engine mount bolts to somewhere around 150 foot/pounds; after the steel > > washers started to swage out from under the nut I called my local EAA Tech > > Counselor. He delicately suggested that maybe they meant 'inch/pounds'. If > > you divide the above figures by 12 I think they will be in a more realistic > > range. > > Did I say ft/lbs??? OOOOOOPPPPPPPSSS!!!!! I meant inch/pounds. > > Best Regards, > Dave Barnhart > rv-6 sn 23744 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: RV-8 Article.
Date: Sep 22, 1995
> Hmmm, those of us building RV-4s think that if you want to take > someone with you, the RV-4 is best. Yes, because you can pretend they're not there! (I wanted a -3, my wife wanted a -6) :) Dave Hyde nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sep 22, 1995
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks
>>Well, I'll add my experince on this subject. On my first O-320-D1A I put >>one of those cheap key starters "bendix like" from AS in my RV-4. I worked >>ok (grounded the right mag in the start position) unless the engine did >>not start and you released the starter which put you back in "both". Every >>once in awhile (3 times in about 50 hours) the engine would then kick back >>(right mag now hot). This would strip the key which holds the starter >>gear on the starter shaft, a five dollar item but annoying. I eventually >>gave up and put two spst switches in to replace the starter and never had >>a problem after that. >>Dan Boudro >>RV-4 #3933 >> > >I've had this same problem. Haven't stripped any starters yet, luckily. I >agree with Dan that two spst switches would solve the problem. If I was >doin' it again I'd seriously think of using switches instead of that very >expensive switch. If you do use the 'bendix' switch be sure to install the >1/2" jumper on the back of the switch. If you don't, the right mag won't be >grounded while starting. Guys,


September 01, 1995 - September 22, 1995

RV-Archive.digest.vol-aq