RV-Archive.digest.vol-ar
September 22, 1995 - October 11, 1995
The 'slick' (sorry for the pun) way of doing this with switches is
to use two "Double Pole" switches. Wire up one side of each switch in the
standard way for the magnetos, and use the other side of the switches wired
in series to provide the 12V source to the starter switch. Just arrange
the appropriate contacts on this second side to ONLY provide 12V power to
the starter switch when the Left Mag is ON, and the Right Mag is OFF.
This extra wiring of the second sides provides a safety back-up,
and _only_ allows starting when the Mag switches are set correctly.
This is probably the way I will go for my RV. I've heard of too
many ignition/starter switches failing at lots of $$$, as well as the
possible engine damage items mentioned earlier in this thread.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... still working seats, recovering from
a cold :^(
>
>John Ammeter
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot location |
Doug:
Outboard is not a problem. I would not want to get too close to the tip. One or
two bays from where Van recommends should not cause any problems.
Inboard might get you within the accelerated flow from the prop. Maybe not
directly but watch for sideslip.
Chordwise movement forward may involve the upwash from the wing and would not be
a good idea. There should not be a problem with aft movement.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Pitot location
Date: 22/09/95 07:41
I'm in the process of building my left wing.
I have mounted (clecoed) all the ribs to the
main and rear spar and am looking at positioning
the tube for wiring and the plumbing for the
pitot. I placed my tie-down in the standard
position and would like to move the pitot
outboard one more bay to minimize interference
with the tie-down bracket.
Is there any reason why the pitot should not
be moved outboard one rib bay? I can't imagine
that the airflow would be any different, but
I am nowhere close to being informed about
airflow patterns around the wing.
Thanks!
Doug Medema
Spars done, left wing proceeding. Rv-6A, #21140
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: DPS Fuel Flow Meters |
>--------------
>I wrote recently about how good the fuel flow meters sold by DPS Instruments
>were. Unfortunately, I found out that DPS has probably gone out of
>business. I tried calling them and found the phone number is now someone
>else. The operator has no listing for DPS, either.
>
>I'm not real happy about this; hope I have no problems with my fuel flow
>sensors. At least, if the problem is in the flow meters themselves I know
>where to purchase replacements.
>
>If anyone in the Chino CA area can find out what happened to Bob Johnson of
>DPS let me know. I can tell you his phone number is NOT 909-606-0403 or
>909-606-0706; those people seem friendly but that may not last if too many
>people call them asking for Bob Johnson.
>
>John Ammeter
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
>
>--------------
For those of you that are interested in affordable fuel managment systems,
Matronics is just about to release a system similar to the DPS product
but with many more features. The FuelScan LT, a basic model with fuel flow
sender, is projected to be $799 list, and the FuelScan DX, a deluxe model
with Loran/GPS interface and fuel pressure is projected at $999 list.
Both units are very nice, easy to use and configure, and are extremely well
priced for the extensive functionality provided.
The FuelScan DX is currently being test flown by the RV-LIST's own Don Wentz.
For more information on the FuelScan LT and DX models, send email to
"info(at)matronics.com" or call 925-606-1001. Look for more information on
the FuelScan availability on the RV-LIST.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 12:51 PDT
From: Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: RV Racing
>>Championship Air Races in Reno...for those of you that haven't heard yet,
>>Bill Destefani in Strega won, John Penney in the Rare Bare was second, and
>>Dego Red (forgot pilot's name, sorry) came third.
If anyone wants some detailed info as to qualifying speeds etc... check out:
http://airspacemag.earthlink.net/Reno/Reno_Home.html
By the way, Rare Bear was running a stock engine (not the one he qualified
at 489mph with!)
>>Back to the matter at hand. Despite my enthusiasm for the
>>event, I can't help but think that air racing is dying slowly. What appears
>>to be needed is an inexpensive, robust airframe that can go fast, and doesn't
>>cost a lot, and with lots of examples flying that demonstrate pretty
>>consistent performance...hey, wait a minute, didn't I just describe the RVs?
Also the Ex-Rare Bear manager has put together an engine that puts out some
5200+ hp. (more than the Bear can handle) So apparently there are 2 custom
built aircraft in the works for next year that are suppose to be pushing
600mph!!! on a prop!!!
>>My point, of course, is whether or not anybody has ever contemplated closed
>>course racing in an all RV class?
That would great! I would be all for that!! (make a stock class so you
don't have people using 'Harmon Rockets' in a race. Something similar to
the stock class at Reno. Wonder if there is an airshow around that has the
room/money and need for something like that.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Phoenix Area Participants |
I'd like to hear off line from any Phoenix area participants to this forum.
In particular, I'd like to know the availability of hanger space on the far
east side, like Falcon Field or Williams Gateway. I'm thinking of a move to
Fountain Hills and I think those are the closest airports. Also, I fly into
Deer Valley often, if there is any RV activity there I'd like to drop in and
visit.
Thanks for your help.
Dick McNaney rmcnaney@huachuca-sec1.army.mil
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif623.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks (fwd) |
This approach is exactly what I've done on my RV6A. I got the idea from Bob
Nuckols (sp?); he publishes an Aeroconnection newletter which is great! I'm
using alot of his ideas in my electrical system. Specifically for the ignition
system, my panel has the two, dpdt switches, wired as Gil describes, and a
push-button starter switch that has a rubber 'boot'. I'm also using two
automotive style fuse-blocks, one of which has a 10Amp capacity diode for
an emergency equipment backup electrical system.
Gary Bataller
N615RV
Westboro, MA
> Guys,
> The 'slick' (sorry for the pun) way of doing this with switches is
> to use two "Double Pole" switches. Wire up one side of each switch in the
> standard way for the magnetos, and use the other side of the switches wired
> in series to provide the 12V source to the starter switch. Just arrange
> the appropriate contacts on this second side to ONLY provide 12V power to
> the starter switch when the Left Mag is ON, and the Right Mag is OFF.
>
> This extra wiring of the second sides provides a safety back-up,
> and _only_ allows starting when the Mag switches are set correctly.
>
> This is probably the way I will go for my RV. I've heard of too
> many ignition/starter switches failing at lots of $$$, as well as the
> possible engine damage items mentioned earlier in this thread.
>
>
> Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... still working seats, recovering from
> a cold :^(
>
>
>
> >
> >John Ammeter
> >RV-6 N16JA
> >Flying 5 years
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | Lightening holes |
>> I realize this will cost me a few ounces, but...
I have been fortunate enough to visit Jim Younkin's shop where he =
rebuilds Stagger Wings and does some pretty unbelivable stuff. (Check =
out Sport Aviation from a couple of months back). I asked him the same =
question but it was something like "I don't want to cut out the holes =
because it takes so long to do". Jim says to take whatever it is you're =
thinking about putting on your airplane and throw it into the air. If =
it doesn't float don't put it on.
Keep it light! Good luck. =20
B F Gibbons (RV-6 wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics FuelScan |
Regarding the Matronics "FuelScan" unit that I am testing, it is a very
nice looking unit, easy to read/use, uses the same expensive flow
transducer as several other units use, with nice functions. Install was
easy, great manual, instructions.
I am attempting to provide as much feedback to Matronics as possible,
from installation issues to accuracy, useage idiosyncracies, etc.
Going to be a great product, check it out.
Feel free to ask me any questions you may have about it.
Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
For those of you that are interested in affordable fuel managment systems,
Matronics is just about to release a system similar to the DPS product
but with many more features. The FuelScan LT, a basic model with fuel flow
sender, is projected to be $799 list, and the FuelScan DX, a deluxe model
with Loran/GPS interface and fuel pressure is projected at $999 list.
Both units are very nice, easy to use and configure, and are extremely well
priced for the extensive functionality provided.
The FuelScan DX is currently being test flown by the RV-LIST's own Don Wentz.
For more information on the FuelScan LT and DX models, send email to
"info(at)matronics.com" or call 925-606-1001. Look for more information on
the FuelScan availability on the RV-LIST.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks (fwd) |
I still like the simplicity of two single pole switches and a starter
switch (momentary on). It does have the disadvantage that the pilot must know
what to do (turn on the left mag to start) and to remember to turn on the right
mag
switch after the engine starts.
Gil's proposal should (if wired properly) solve that.
I purchased the news letter from Mr. Nichols (sp) for about a year.
The problem I have with most of his ideas is that they are just too complex.
If you are out traveling and have a problem the last thing
you want is something very complex to trouble shoot and then try to find
the right part. His electrical diagrams are very complex. From my experience,
most homebuilders have a difficult time with wiring diagrams. I know this list
will have a lot of EE types on it so don't jump on me. I am talking about
your average person (even average A&P!!).
It is still hard to beat the KISS principal.
> From root Fri Sep 22 16:25:46 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> From: tif623.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)matronics.com (Gary Bataller)
> Message-Id: <9509221956.AA02475(at)hki064.ED.RAY.COM>
> Subject: Re: Starting a Lycoming with Slicks (fwd)
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:56:03 -0400 (EDT)
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 1596
>
> This approach is exactly what I've done on my RV6A. I got the idea from Bob
> Nuckols (sp?); he publishes an Aeroconnection newletter which is great! I'm
> using alot of his ideas in my electrical system. Specifically for the ignition
> system, my panel has the two, dpdt switches, wired as Gil describes, and a
> push-button starter switch that has a rubber 'boot'. I'm also using two
> automotive style fuse-blocks, one of which has a 10Amp capacity diode for
> an emergency equipment backup electrical system.
>
> Gary Bataller
> N615RV
> Westboro, MA
> > Guys,
> > The 'slick' (sorry for the pun) way of doing this with switches is
> > to use two "Double Pole" switches. Wire up one side of each switch in the
> > standard way for the magnetos, and use the other side of the switches wired
> > in series to provide the 12V source to the starter switch. Just arrange
> > the appropriate contacts on this second side to ONLY provide 12V power to
> > the starter switch when the Left Mag is ON, and the Right Mag is OFF.
> >
> > This extra wiring of the second sides provides a safety back-up,
> > and _only_ allows starting when the Mag switches are set correctly.
> >
> > This is probably the way I will go for my RV. I've heard of too
> > many ignition/starter switches failing at lots of $$$, as well as the
> > possible engine damage items mentioned earlier in this thread.
> >
> >
> > Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... still working seats, recovering
from
> > a cold :^(
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >John Ammeter
> > >RV-6 N16JA
> > >Flying 5 years
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Pitot location |
Doug:
On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, you asked:
> Is there any reason why the pitot should not
> be moved outboard one rib bay?
The only reason I can think of is that if you move it outboard one bay,
you won't be able to reach it through the exeisting access hole. You'll
need to make a second access hole.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Reply: New Air Racing Class? (Chatter) |
I'm interested. Sounds like great fun! But we need to keep it simple
with stock engines or some sort of limits to engine mods. I'v watched
R/C racing get totally out of hand and this will happen to RV races if we
let it. I will race my RV when it is completed, but I will not build an
RV just for the Reno style race.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Terence Gannon wrote:
> My point, of course, is whether or not anybody has ever contemplated closed
> course racing in an all RV class?
>
> Terry in
> Calgary
> S/N 24414
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com> |
On Sep 22, 1:34pm, Dave Hyde wrote:
} Subject: Re: Re[2]: RV-8 Article.
}
} [ message/rfc822 ] :
> Hmmm, those of us building RV-4s think that if you want to take
} > someone with you, the RV-4 is best.
}
Not to open a can of worms here, but I'd like to hear some
performance comments comparing the RV-4 to RV-6. (My girlfriend
wants me to get the RV-6 too.) The specs are really close.
For gross weight performance, 160Hp engine in both:
RV-4 RV-6
Wing loading: 13.63 14.5
Rate of Climb: 1650 1500
Ceiling: 19500 16300
Landing: 425 500
Baggage: 30 60
Range (55%): 800 925
So for the RV-6, you get a bit better range and baggage at the cost
of a some performance. Does anyone notice a major difference of
performance, or is this more of a tandem vs side-by-side preference
decision?
thanks,
-Bryan
--
Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Saare(at)Eng.Sun.COM (John Saare) |
| Subject: | Re: Reply: New Air Racing Class? (Chatter) |
If you're bored by longwindedness, delete this message...
Hmmmm. It's not like I ever plan to race, but since this IS chatter...
Why not adopt the bronze/silver/gold system and let the chips fall
where they may? Or perhaps establish two classes: "stock" and unlimited.
Mainly I suggest this to broaden the appeal of the class. There should
be an enforcably affordable class of racing. Likewise, there should
be an unlimited expression of that same class..., basically pandering
to the sentiment of Rare Bear's owner who said something like:
...if we're only going allow stock engines (et al), then
why not just hold a powder puff derby...
Note: This was in response to things that were being planned
to make the Phoenix500 (and the series it belongs to) more
affordable, and economically tenable.
It's all relative. Compared to the mega-buckage that CAN be thrown at
a Reno unlimited, a really hot RV would still seem cheap by comparison,
hence, you might attract more of 'em, competing like hell. Still
a rich-man's game, just "less" rich.
The affordable class I think would be as interesting as the "Formula (V?)"
class..., probably about as affordable too, which is to say, not TOO
bad. Next to the unlimited, this is the most exciting class at Reno,
at least to me, cuz it just seems more real-world to me. I can relate.
What this class lacked in sheer speed, it could hopefully make up for
in sheer numbers..., how many RV's are flying after all?
>
> I'm interested. Sounds like great fun! But we need to keep it simple
> with stock engines or some sort of limits to engine mods. I'v watched
> R/C racing get totally out of hand and this will happen to RV races if we
> let it. I will race my RV when it is completed, but I will not build an
> RV just for the Reno style race.
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Uudecode Follow-on |
Thanks for all the responses, guys.
In my ignorance I did not give enough info.
I am running a PC (100 MHz Pentium) with Windows 95.
I'm looking for a UUDECODE program that will be compatible
with this. Matt Dralle was kind enough to send me all the back
communications in compressed format and I need to decode it and
decompress it and de- whatever else so I can read it. (Oops, now
you'll probably get some more requests, Matt. Sorry, but a lot
of the info provided by this group is GREAT!)
Bill Costello
RV-6 working on empennage
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re[2]: RV-8 Article. |
>Hmmm, those of us building RV-4s think that if you want to take
> someone with you, the RV-4 is best. Nothing like sitting on the
> centerline while doing acro. Sorry, couldn't resist.
While I was fueling up my RV-6 at Twin Oaks Airport awhile back Van came in
to fuel up the RV-8, in my conversation with him about the RV-8 he told me
his goals were to have better visability for the pilot, better CG with
passenger and more room for the pilot and passenger and more baggage space he
said that the airplane met all of those goals. Then he looked at my RV-6 and
said you still have the best airplane for cross country comfort flying.
I guess it all depends on what our goals are for the airplane we build, yes
it is really neat to sit on the centerline when doing aerobatics but that is
probably less than .5% of the total flying time of mine and all other RV
flyers I know.
Its all fun as long as its done in a RV :-)
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: compasses for RVs |
<199509211638.MAA05402(at)romulus.rtp.dg.com>
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
On a slightly different subject:
Hearkening back to the old days (forgive me), I recall that the T-33 had a
gyrosyn compass that used the signal from a fluxgate transmitter in the
horizontal stabilizer. I have never seen one installed in a general
aviation aircraft, but am reminded of this scheme by the frequent need to
reset the DG in the rental Piper Archer I usually fly. The fluxgate
transmitter acts like a magnetic compass, sensing the earth's magnetic
field and providing a continuous signal to the cockpit instrument.
Does anyone know if such installations are commercially available and, if
so, from whom? Has anyone installed one in an RV?
Thanks.
Jack Abell
RV-6A Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | RV-4 cg question |
Hi all,
Are RV-4's CG limited with 2 adults aboard? I get the impression that they need
a bit of weight up front to avoid CG problems, and I'd like to get opinions and
experiences if I can regarding the CG range with two adults aboard, and one-up.
tia,
Steve Mayer
RV-4 plans (so far)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
| Subject: | Which compressor should I buy? |
I never fancied myself much of a maven on air compressors, and since
my father wants his tired old Sears clunker back...
Which air compressor should I buy? I checked out the offerings at the
local price clubs, and I've discovered that at BJ's, $300 will
purchase a DeVilbiss "Pro-4000" 30 Gal 4 HP oilless direct-drive
machine. At Sam's Club, the same money will by a Sanborn "Black Max"
25 Gal 5 HP belt-drive (traditional oil-based design).
Obviously, both machines will pump air. Given that, what are the
basic differences between the two designs? Is one "better"? Which
one will be quieter? Which will require less maintenance? I should
mention that I intend to shoot paint as well as drive rivets. Thanks
in advance for any guidance you can offer.
-Brian
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer
LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com
145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206
Needham, MA 02194 FAX: (617) 444-3692
LANart: Difference by Design
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
i think that we need to remember that the RV-4 has had twenty years to evolve
into the little preformance demon that we all know and love. seems to me that
the prototype of most anything is usually not as good as the final product. i
re-read my issue of the RV-ATOR and unless i am missing something, the RV-8
is just as fast as the RV-4 but. with more room and better endurance. get
back to speed for a minute. i beleive that speed is a factor on building
quality, payload, weather, and many other factors too much space required to
list. not all RV-4 are 200 m.p.h. airplanes, but thats the way it goes. im
sure that there will be developments and changes along the way that will
inprove all 4-6-&8's. i am sure this was the same debate the the RV-3
builders had when the RV-4 came out
jimnjac hillsboro, or. RV-4 builders
________________________________________________________________________________
I just finished riveting on the bottom skin of my wing. I did the
bottom skin last, which seems to be the conventional wisdom nowadays and I
did all the riveting by myself.
I am fortunate enough to have people who are willing to help me with my
project, but, it is difficult for me to match my schedule with theirs. While
waiting for a friend to come by, I decided to try and get started on my own.
Two days later I was done with no problems. I did all the rivets while
reaching down from the top side of the skin, bucking with my right hand and
driving with my left. I also used an Avery swivel-flush rivet set with that
big beautiful rubber cup. I wouldn't have had a prayer without it. I found
the key was standing on a milk crate which put my armpit at the proper height
in relation to the top edge of the skin.
I guess I should say that I am six feet tall and 160 lbs. with a 33 inch
sleeve. In other words I'm kinda skinny. This probably helped quite a bit.
Anyway, it can be done!
Ted
RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
>blahh blahh...
>install the system on a fuel injected engine, you would have to figure some
way
>to account for the fuel that is returned to the tank. A standard carb does
not
>need that provision.
>blahh blahh
Huh!
John, how'd you figure that the fuel injection system returns fuel to the
tank?
I've just plumbed mine...it has NO return.
Ken
RV6-A
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Another first flight! |
Fellow Listers:
Would just like to let the
rest of the world know that one of our MN wing builders
completed his first successful test flight of his RV-6. John Stevenson of St.
Paul did his thing at Lake Elmo Airport (8 miles E of St. Paul) on the evening
of Sept 23. I got there right after the blessed event and John was still
floating on air. His RV is a beautiful example of craftsmanship with a
polished and rubbed out bright blue polyurethane paint job. Power is 180 HP
with a new Hartzell C/S.
This is a going machine. John said he bit the bullet and made a full power
takeoff (off the ground about the same time the throttle hit the stops). He
told me he wanted to hold it down a little to get a good safe flying speed (he
had planned on 140 mph tops for the first flight). Next thing he knew he was
passing through 180 mph and ended up backed off to 16" of MP to keep the speed
at his planned 140. 30 minutes later he was back on the ground experiencing an
acute adrenalin high.
The next day we had our MN Wing picnic in Webster, MN and he got up early, got
in a couple more hours of testing plus a half dozen landings, and made it to
our picnic and was the star of the show.
So this is what it's all about. Will I ever get there?????
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "DAVID P. DONNELLY" <102616.73(at)compuserve.com> |
Hello to all and thanks for providing this great service,
I am the Product Development Manager for a marine electronics manufacturer by
day, RV builder by night - located in the Atlanta area.
I am currently working on the rudder of my RV4, and to this point, all is going
well.
I learned about this list through the RVAtor, and after several tries and much
help from some of you, I have finally arrived. I am looking forward to drawing
on the experience of those who have gone before me.
My first two questions:
1) What is the effect of occasional aerobatics on gyro instruments? I intend to
equip my panel for cross-country flight, but don't want to be worried about
damage from the occasional loop or roll.
2) In riveting the rudder skin to the rudder spar, it appears that a 3-4" throat
on the rivet sqeezer is necessary to reach the leading edge rivets. I can
probably back rivet one side, but I refuse to bang away at this thin skin from
the exposed surface, based on my "less-than-perfect" experience with the much
thicker skins of the HS and VS. Am I missing something here? I am not looking
forward to buying a $100 tool for this purpose unless it is used elsewhere.
Regards,
Dave Donnelly
RV4 #3977
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NRGS80A(at)prodigy.com (MR DANIEL R URBANSKI) |
-- [ From: Daniel R. Urbanski * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --
Thank's to those who responded to No Messages.
INTRODUCTION! Daniel Urbanski Fort Worth TX. I am building a rv6a. I am
buying tools as I need them. I live about 2 miles from Hicks airport
where Avery Enterprises is located.
I just started my rv-6a about a month ago. But I started preparing to
build it six months ago. I wanted to visit the factory, and take a ride
in one before I committed myself to building one. All was accomplished.
I met the nice folk's at Van's and got my ride. I was impressed with
company and the aircraft. When I got back home I bought a air
compressor and a drill press, and ordered my plans. I also had to
reorganize my work shop. It is not real big. I can build the tail, and
wings in it, but when it comes to the fuselage, I will have to move
into the garage. I will rent a hanger when I am ready to assemble it.
I finished the rear spar . (horizontal stab. Now working on front spar.
I heard about the rv list in Newsgroups. (rec.aviation.homebuilt).
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-4 cg question |
Steve, depending on the installed equipment and weight of the occupants,
an RV4 can be cg limited with ONE person aboard, or well withing range
with TWO aboard. With constant speed prop, stock engine accessories,
lots of goodies in the panel, and light tail, it may be a good idea to
put something in the baggage compartment. Also, with a wood prop,
lightweight engine acc. bare bones vfr panel and a light passenger, it
wouldn't hurt to have a tail strobe, vert. stab. mounted vor antenna and
an oil change in the baggage compartment! Also, keep in mind the
aerobatic CG limits!
Jeff
RV4 2179
On 23 Sep 1995, Steve Mayer wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Are RV-4's CG limited with 2 adults aboard? I get the impression that they need
> a bit of weight up front to avoid CG problems, and I'd like to get opinions and
> experiences if I can regarding the CG range with two adults aboard, and one-up.
>
> tia,
>
> Steve Mayer
> RV-4 plans (so far)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rfrawley(at)cisco.com |
HI,
I will be visting Atlanta late this week for InterOP. I normally reside in
Sydney Australia. I was wondering if there are any RV-6 owners in the area
that would be willing to show me what a wonderful aircraft it is. I will be
there on Saturday as well.
Regards
Richard Frawley
Cisco Systems Australia
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Frawley | |
| Mgr, Strategic Opportunities | || || * * * |
| Phone: 61-2-935-4123 | || || - * | | | * - |
| Mobile: 61-18-260-594 | |||| |||| |o|*| | | | |*|o| |
| Fax: 61-2-957-4077 | ..:||||||:..:||||||:..| |===========| | |
| Email:rfrawley(at)cisco.com | cisco Systems Australia |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pager on 61-2-430-6381...leave a message with your number to call..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dave Mumert" <mumertd(at)cadvision.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Re: Which compressor should I buy? |
>
> I never fancied myself much of a maven on air compressors, and since
> my father wants his tired old Sears clunker back...
>
> Which air compressor should I buy? I checked out the offerings at
> the local price clubs, and I've discovered that at BJ's, $300 will
> purchase a DeVilbiss "Pro-4000" 30 Gal 4 HP oilless direct-drive
> machine. At Sam's Club, the same money will by a Sanborn "Black
> Max" 25 Gal 5 HP belt-drive (traditional oil-based design).
>
> Obviously, both machines will pump air. Given that, what are the
> basic differences between the two designs? Is one "better"? Which
> one will be quieter? Which will require less maintenance? I should
> mention that I intend to shoot paint as well as drive rivets.
> Thanks in advance for any guidance you can offer.
>
> -Brian
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer
> LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com
> 145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206
> Needham, MA 02194 FAX: (617) 444-3692
>
> LANart: Difference by Design
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
I have a oil-less compressor (3 HP) and find it VERY noisy. If you
have to live with it in the same room you should avoid the direct
drive oil-less type.
I am thinking of selling my direct drive to my brother-in-law (he
needs it to pump up tires) and buying a two-stage 5 HP model (15 CFM
at 175 PSI) so I can drive the new HVLP spray guns.
Dave Mumert
mumertd(at)cadvision.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com> |
| Subject: | Someone's giving me a hint... |
I was at 8200' MSL today doing ultralight practice...or rather
trying. After waiting over an hour for the snow to stop and some
clouds to clear, we tried one run on the 1800' runway. Takeoff
aborted at last minute, density altitude was just too high. No
flying today.
About that time I looked up and saw an RV sailing overhead and
coming in for a landing at the Granby, CO airport. Okay, I'm
convinced, I want to start building one ASAP!
Now, if I can just find a place to build one. My crackerbox
apartment probably won't work so well. Maybe the local EAA
can help out. I just moved here and will be joining next
meeting.
-Bryan
--
Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Minnesota Wing Fly In (chatter) |
The Minnesota Wing had their annual fly-in pig roast this past weekend. These
events keep me motivated.
Weather was a little cruddy, but turnout was still incredible. I counted 8
RVs when I landed. About half of them were 4s, the rest 6s and 6As. It's
fun to walk the flightline and note the differences each builder puts into
his machine.
Great thanks to the guys who make these kinds of events happen.
-Joe
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Another First Flight! |
Launched a Harmon Rocket II into the air Sat. am, no unusual surprises.
Needed to squeeze one of the ailerons to work out some roll tendencies (sp?),
and fuss with the injector idle mixture. Sure is a goin' machine, tho the
gear leg & wheel fairings are still at the painters. 27 GPH (!!!) on T/O
roll. Ow! I'm buyin' some avgas company stock next. Not quite what I'm used
to seeing flow through the -4... You oughta hear this thing.
I'll post some performance numbers as they are nailed down.
Stan Shannon in Fredericksburg, TX was supposed to fly his -6 today, (Sun.),
but I didn't hear if that one happened.
Regards,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
Ken: I based the return line for the fuel injection on the reccommendations of
Air Flo Performance fuel injection units. If you have NO return between the fuel
flow counter transducer and the engine then you would get an accurate fuel usage
from the VM-1000.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au (John Morrissey) |
| Subject: | Re: Lightening holes |
Hi All,
I believe in the "Jim Younkin's statement below, keep it light as
possible.
One trick I use, apart from clamping your rib down securely is to
lubricate the cutter to decrease the possibility of it "biting" into
the rib material, I use cutting compound called "trefolux" here in
Australia or even plain old kerosene will do.
Happy Building!!
John Morrissey
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Lightening holes
Date: 9/20/95 2:51 PM
>> I realize this will cost me a few ounces, but...
I have been fortunate enough to visit Jim Younkin's shop where he rebuilds
Stagge r Wings and does some pretty unbelivable stuff. (Check out Sport
Aviation from a
couple of months back). I asked him the same question but it was something
like "I don't want to cut out the holes because it takes so long to do". Jim
says to take whatever it is you're thinking about putting on your airplane and
throw it
into the air. If it doesn't float don't put it on.
Keep it light! Good luck.
B F Gibbons (RV-6 wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Harbor Freight14" Bandsaw |
Hello !
Has anyone out there had some experience w/Harbor Freight and more
specifically their 14" multi-speed bandsaw ($300.). I want a saw that I (my
wife) can use for other projects as well. I know this is over-kill (1HP) but
this is one of those tools that is handy to have around anyway. The only
other units that are close to this is a 14" ($600.+) or a 12" ($388.) Delta
and both are single speed 1/2 HP units. My
concern here is when the H/F tech rep used the words "import" and "less
precision" than the Delta units when explaining the H/F saws. I really can't
complain too much about that though because my 13" Sears drill press said
"made in china" on the box. It is a great unit and for what its worth, Van is
the only other person that must pack his products as well as this press was
boxed. Anyway how about some opinions and feedback about this and H/F as
well. No shipping and tax looks good along with a good price if the quality
doesn't suffer on the produce side. By the way, I hpoe to have my wing spar
built for me so that is not an issue.
Tnx!
Kevin & Trudy Williams
Dallas, Texas
RV6A EMP #24438
Ps... The garage sale went great! $1100. combined take. It's amazing what
some people will buy. :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On 24 Sep 1995, DAVID P. DONNELLY wrote:
> 2) In riveting the rudder skin to the rudder spar, it appears that a 3-4" throat
> on the rivet sqeezer is necessary to reach the leading edge rivets. I can
> probably back rivet one side, but I refuse to bang away at this thin skin from
> the exposed surface, based on my "less-than-perfect" experience with the much
> thicker skins of the HS and VS. Am I missing something here? I am not looking
> forward to buying a $100 tool for this purpose unless it is used elsewhere.
Yes, you'll need a 4-inch yoke if you want to squeeze those rivets.
You'll also need to do the same on the leading edges of the elevators.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Which compressor should I buy? (fwd) |
A 2 HP dual cylinder compressor will do everything you need to build a RV.
I don't recall my tank size but it is probably 25 to 30 gal.
It might be a little short on doing the exterior painting but that is normally
done by component.
The riveting and squezers don't use much air.
The air drills take a medium amount of air but a 2HP keeps up just fine.
The die grinders suck a lot of air but these are not used much.
You don't have to get too carried away here. 2 HP is OK, anything larger is
OK too if you get it at a good price. Consider your space requirements
and you will probably need 220 volt circuit.
> From: Brian Yablon <lanart.com!brian(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id: <199509240628.CAA01441(at)jaco.lanart.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Which compressor should I buy?
>
>
> I never fancied myself much of a maven on air compressors, and since
> my father wants his tired old Sears clunker back...
>
> Which air compressor should I buy? I checked out the offerings at the
> local price clubs, and I've discovered that at BJ's, $300 will
> purchase a DeVilbiss "Pro-4000" 30 Gal 4 HP oilless direct-drive
> machine. At Sam's Club, the same money will by a Sanborn "Black Max"
> 25 Gal 5 HP belt-drive (traditional oil-based design).
>
> Obviously, both machines will pump air. Given that, what are the
> basic differences between the two designs? Is one "better"? Which
> one will be quieter? Which will require less maintenance? I should
> mention that I intend to shoot paint as well as drive rivets. Thanks
> in advance for any guidance you can offer.
>
> -Brian
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer
> LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com
> 145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206
> Needham, MA 02194 FAX: (617) 444-3692
>
> LANart: Difference by Design
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
I bought a Delta bandsaw. Not sure what size, it's one of those full
upright (5-6 foot tall) and was $500-$600 with the fence. This has got to
be the most used LARGE tool I've used on my RV-6a so far. It cuts through
the aluminum like butter. Sawed all the way through the wing spar in noth'n
flat.... just kidd'n Actually, it tappered the spar flanges like you
wouldn't believe!! (butter comes to mind again) I also use it to make
spacers/jigs etc. great tool, and it's one of those tools that will
probably even have a use after the planes built. :-)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
>> I am completing RV-6 tail feathers but I like tandem seating so much that
>> I might jump ship and switch to the RV-8 if it is not too far in the
>> future. Do you suppose any of the RV-6 will show up in the RV-8?
>>
>> - Randy (RV-6 tail)
>
> I seem to remember some postings saying the RV-8 *DID* have RV-6 tail
> feathers. So you may have already started on your -8, while the rest of
> us await the kit
>
> Rob.
No, the RV-8 originally had a tail that was similar to the the RV-6B
prototype, which is not available in kit form. And that was just the
FIRST tail. Right now it's flying with yet another new vertical tail.
These tails have taller vertical stabs and counterweighted rudders.
Van is experimenting and probably will be for a while, to get the best
combination. But the bottom line is the tail will not be interchangable
with the RV-4 or -6. Wings either.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
This may be old news to many of you:
I am working on the wings, and have been using the straps that come with the
kit to pull the leading edge tight. Got tired of messing with the little
metal connectors after removing the skins to double/triple/quadruple check
measurements :-)
So my solution was to buy some nice 1 inch wide cargo straps with a ratchet
style connector. They are great. I recommend buying some if you're having
the same frustration as I. Not only that, but now I'll use them as 'cargo
straps' on my truck (imagine that). I'll be all set to pick up my fuselage
with my new 'cargo straps'. (hehe)
(they are a bit spending in my opinion) I got them at Ernsts for $10 a piece
for the real good ones. (They have cheaper ones without the ratchet
connector for $3 each, but I recommend the ratchet, you don't have to break
a sweat to get the straps tight)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Aviation Home Pages |
For those of you looking for useful aviation home pages, try
http://www.netstat.com/avn.html
It has links to lots and lots of sites
Ross Mickey
rv6a
F604 Bulkhead installation
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Spar riveting |
> Has anyone created hard points on the RV series for mounting something like
> a scaled down version of those WWII fuel tanks. (as a kid I always thought
> they were bombs. :-)
The guys who developed the fiberglass cargo pods for RVs use a pylon
that attaches with a bolt to the tie-down bracket and wraps around the
leading edge, requiring the installation of 2 nutplates in the top of
the leading edge for the top of the cuff. I got the impression that
they did a proper engineering study on it. I happened to be present
when they met with Van and although he hated the idea of anyone hanging
draggy external loads off "his" airplanes, he didn't seem concerned
with the structural aspects of their attachment arrangment.
I would contact them for more info. Don't remember their address, but
it was in an RVator a few issues ago.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
Text item:
Anybody who is even remotely asking what kind of tools they should get -
Band Saw comes right after the necessary rivet dimpling and driving
stuff. Tapering the spar strips did not bring images of butter into mind
(not enough horsepower on my model), but the job could not be done
without the saw. Everything else is trivial - you don't have to slow the
blade down any, use standard wood blades (I like 1/4", 8-11 teeth per
inch). It is amazing how long the blades last (until you cut your
fiberglass parts). Making plywood jigs comes right after cutting the
2024 Al.
Rich Klee
Fuselage, 6a
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Band Saws
Date: 9/25/95 10:53 AM
I bought a Delta bandsaw. Not sure what size, it's one of those full
upright (5-6 foot tall) and was $500-$600 with the fence. This has got to
be the most used LARGE tool I've used on my RV-6a so far. It cuts through
the aluminum like butter. Sawed all the way through the wing spar in noth'n
flat.... just kidd'n Actually, it tappered the spar flanges like you
wouldn't believe!! (butter comes to mind again) I also use it to make
spacers/jigs etc. great tool, and it's one of those tools that will
probably even have a use after the planes built. :-)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Band Saws
From: Steve Day <pharmcomp.com!sday(at)matronics.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 95 09:59 PDT
.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight14" Bandsaw |
Text item:
Friend of mine got an 18" bandsaw from Grizzly imports (almost the same saw as
sold by Harbor Freight). He was not very happy with the quality. He had problems
with wheel vibrations that were impossible to solve. He finally returned it, and
got a Delta ( big $'s) and is much happier with that. The Al sawing is actually
a very non-critical application. You will be deburring everything anyway, and
the material in most cases is fairly thin. Where the quality of Bandsaws comes
in is when working with wood (resawing 6" maple planks is not a trivial job -
both from pure HP and blade tracking).
rich klee
Fuselage 6a
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Harbor Freight14" Bandsaw
Date: 9/25/95 9:28 AM
Hello !
Has anyone out there had some experience w/Harbor Freight and more
specifically their 14" multi-speed bandsaw ($300.). I want a saw that I (my
wife) can use for other projects as well. I know this is over-kill (1HP) but
this is one of those tools that is handy to have around anyway. The only
other units that are close to this is a 14" ($600.+) or a 12" ($388.) Delta
and both are single speed 1/2 HP units. My
concern here is when the H/F tech rep used the words "import" and "less
precision" than the Delta units when explaining the H/F saws. I really can't
complain too much about that though because my 13" Sears drill press said
"made in china" on the box. It is a great unit and for what its worth, Van is
the only other person that must pack his products as well as this press was
boxed. Anyway how about some opinions and feedback about this and H/F as well.
No shipping and tax looks good along with a good price if the quality doesn't
suffer on the produce side. By the way, I hpoe to have my wing spar built for
me so that is not an issue.
Tnx!
Kevin & Trudy Williams
Dallas, Texas
RV6A EMP #24438
Ps... The garage sale went great! $1100. combined take. It's amazing what
some people will buy. :-)
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Harbor Freight14" Bandsaw
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:18:15 -0400
I-4.1)
From: aol.com!Kev711(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
from tommy by tommy.doctord.com
with smtp
(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1)
| From: | billp(at)doctord.com (Bill Pace) |
| Subject: | Confessions of a dingbat |
Hi all,
I've been lurking on the list for some time now so I figure it's time for a
quick introduction. I've been building an RV-6A in San Diego since about
last December. I've completed my VS and Rudder and am in the process of
rebuilding my HS. I screwed up the rear HS spar so bad that I junked it and
built the other two components before returning to the HS. I had not worked
with metal for almost a quarter century back in shop class so I have been
going much slower that I had hoped.
(To metal working neophytes who are considering whether to take a class or
not: I'm finding parts replacement costs and rework is probably about the
same as the cost of the class. If you have the time, I would recommend that
you take it. I didn't but I wish that I had. Don't be fooled, working with
metal, although not difficult, takes time to learn and an education will
cost you money no matter what...).
At the rate I'm going, I figure I'm on the "10-year to completion plan" :-).
Not to complain, but life often intrudes and keeps me from working on it.
Besides, part of the reason for building an airplane is to give me something
to do when my wife is traveling, which can be up to months at a time, so
build time is not of paramount importance to me.
A real problem that I have been having is in keeping skins and other parts
from getting badly scratched up during construction. I pull out these nice,
almost pristine parts and by the time I've finished working with it,
scratches and dings abound. I try to keep my workbench clean, but "chips
happen". I've heard of using Contact shelf paper to cover parts but have not
tried this yet. I worried about how hard it would be to remove after I'm
done. I would be real interested in hearing what others are doing to
mitigate dings and scratches.
Back to lurking,
Bill Pace Life is not so much an adventure
WBPace(at)aol.com as it is a paycheck
(no, I am _not_ an AOL newbie!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Which compressor should I buy? |
I have the DeVilbiss you mentioned. I like it, works great, plenty of
power, only one drawback: it's LOUD. The traditional compressor won't
be nearly as loud. With this compressor you either need to put it on
the other side of a wall (not outside though unless you don't have
neighbors) or build some sort of insulation box for it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> I never fancied myself much of a maven on air compressors, and since
> my father wants his tired old Sears clunker back...
>
> Which air compressor should I buy? I checked out the offerings at the
> local price clubs, and I've discovered that at BJ's, $300 will
> purchase a DeVilbiss "Pro-4000" 30 Gal 4 HP oilless direct-drive
> machine. At Sam's Club, the same money will by a Sanborn "Black Max"
> 25 Gal 5 HP belt-drive (traditional oil-based design).
>
> Obviously, both machines will pump air. Given that, what are the
> basic differences between the two designs? Is one "better"? Which
> one will be quieter? Which will require less maintenance? I should
> mention that I intend to shoot paint as well as drive rivets. Thanks
> in advance for any guidance you can offer.
>
> -Brian
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brian Yablon Position: Hardware Engineer
> LANart Corporation Internet: byablon(at)lanart.com
> 145 Rosemary Street, Suite D1 Ma-bell: (617) 444-1994 x206
> Needham, MA 02194 FAX: (617) 444-3692
>
> LANart: Difference by Design
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
I used "Scottpure Wiping Cloths", from an automotive paint store. They
are "chemically pure", were virtually lint free, and hold up well under
the chemicals.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> I am submitting this question on behalf of my husband who is busy
> in the basement constructing an RV-6A. He is an AME (equilavant
> to an A&P in the States), employed full time as a flight engineer
> on a Boeing 727 and is the home-built inspector in this area so
> yes he is busy.
>
> Dale received his empennage kit November 11th of last year and
> his wing kit on April 17th. He is now at the stage of assembling
> his wing tanks. He would like to know what type of material
> (cloth) and solvent should be used to wipe clean the surface where
> the Proseal is to adhere to. He is concerned about contaminents
> in the cloth ie. detergents or waxes etc. which may be present
> in some wiping cloths.
>
> Tanks A Lot!
>
> Cathy and Dale Lamport
> Nepean, Ontario, Canada
> RV6A 23861
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Bandsaw technique |
Here is a bandsaw tracking tip:
With most cutting tools, I just square up the jigs and gauges
etc and start cutting (more or less, that's not entirely true,
but close).
With a bandsaw I would think this would mean having the blade
parallel to the mitre gauge groove or the rip fence or the
edge of the table or whatever (you get the idea). Then it
would seem logical to mark a straight line on what I want to
cut and start feeding the material in parallel to whatever
I chose above.
This doesn't always work though. Band saw blades sometimes
have their own idea of where they want to track, so feed the
material in parallel to that imaginary line. It can easily
be determined by testing. Don't worry if it's not parallel
to anything else on the bandsaw.
Good luck,
BTW: One subject which hasn't come up yet. 2 wheel vs 3 wheel
bandsaws.
3 wheel - has a deeper throat (that's the only advantage).
2 wheel - less blade breakage, blade stays on wheels better,
easier to adjust, may run smoother.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Confessions of a dingbat |
>
> I've been lurking on the list for some time now so I figure it's time for a
> quick introduction. I've been building an RV-6A in San Diego since about
> last December. I've completed my VS and Rudder and am in the process of
> rebuilding my HS. I screwed up the rear HS spar so bad that I junked it and
> built the other two components before returning to the HS. I had not worked
> with metal for almost a quarter century back in shop class so I have been
> going much slower that I had hoped.
>
Your work will get faster as you lern more of the tricks.
>
> A real problem that I have been having is in keeping skins and other parts
> from getting badly scratched up during construction. I pull out these nice,
> almost pristine parts and by the time I've finished working with it,
> scratches and dings abound. I try to keep my workbench clean, but "chips
> happen". I've heard of using Contact shelf paper to cover parts but have not
> tried this yet. I worried about how hard it would be to remove after I'm
> done. I would be real interested in hearing what others are doing to
> mitigate dings and scratches.
>
> Bill Pace
I use a thick version of 1" clear plastic packing tape. I put strips
of the tape about every 4 inches or so on any parts that may get scratched.
This keep s the metal from touching the bench. The tape is a pain to take
off if it is left on for to long, but it's _alot_ better than removing
scratches. I bought the tape at a local tape store. That's all they sell,
just tape. It was about 50 cents a roll so I bought alot. I use it for
other jobs as well.
Chris
Ready to put the rear baffle on the first tank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | work bench and dinged parts |
Bill Pace just wrote about dinged parts.
I'm currently gearing up my shop to start a 6A and I'm going to
build a 4x8 workbench. I was planning on using a top made of AC
plywood. I'm also considering Formica (excuse me, plastic
laminate). Formica is so easy to keep clean, maybe less metal
chips would be left on top of it. Any advice??? I have plenty of
space and can afford another small bench or something for beating
on with a hammer, so breakage SHOULDN'T be an issue. Or do
you folks find it necessary to beat on your main bench? Where
would you ideally put the Avery tool? Any other workbench/space
advice?
Thanks,
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Don Karl karl@dg-rtp.dg.com (919)248-5915
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Protecting from scratches |
>Hi all,
>
>I've been lurking on the list for some time now so I figure it's time for a
**** snip *****
>A real problem that I have been having is in keeping skins and other parts
>from getting badly scratched up during construction. I pull out these nice,
>almost pristine parts and by the time I've finished working with it,
>scratches and dings abound. I try to keep my workbench clean, but "chips
>happen". I've heard of using Contact shelf paper to cover parts but have not
>tried this yet. I worried about how hard it would be to remove after I'm
>done. I would be real interested in hearing what others are doing to
>mitigate dings and scratches.
Bill,
The level of scratches I was generating on my skins, etc. really
went down when I purchased the 'rubber mesh' workbench protector that Avery
sells. It a rubberized material about 1/8 inch thick with a large (3/8
inch) mesh. Aluminum chips just fall through the mesh and don't scratch
the skin surfaces.
It's a relatively new product from Avery, I just wish I had it
earlier. It works much better than my previous 'sweep the bench top all
the time' method!
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 building the battery box ....
>
>Back to lurking,
>
>Bill Pace
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ted_boudreaux(at)om.cv.hp.com |
| Subject: | New Guy in Oregon |
Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
Hello everyone,
My name is Ted Boudreaux. I am just starting on the empennage section
of an RV6A. I currently work as a technician at the Corvallis, Oregon
HP site. I would appreciate any information regarding nearby
(Corvallis, Albany, Salem) RV enthusiast groups or individual builders
I could contact. I am currently 22 years old, a student pilot (I
figure I'll have more than enough time to finish my license, as well
as get an instrument rating before this project is finished) and, of
course, an aircraft nut. Look forward to hearing from you soon!
Ted Boudreaux
ted_boudreaux@hp-pcd.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Confessions of a dingbat |
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
Bill,
Welcome to the dingbat club. I'm president. Don't despair. After seven
and a half weeks working on my HS, I discarded it and ordered replacement
parts. In the four and a half weeks since then, I built a first class VS
and have almost finished my second HS; in fact, I plan to skin it this
coming weekend, thus requiring five and a half weeks for both HS and VS
having had the experience (and frustration) of the first HS. The second
HS is much more satisfying in its accuracy and overall quality. My
learning curve was really steep when I started the project on 2 July. I
predict that you'll be happy you started over on the HS when you see how
much better you're able to do it the second time.
Avery sells some rubber webbing at a reasonable price that is useful for
preventing damage to parts, especially skins. It is intended for use on
the benchtop. However, one needs to be careful to keep it clean by
removing it from the benchtop, shaking it out, and cleaning underneath it
to remove filings, drilling scraps, chips, etc., whenever it becomes
contaminated with anything that can scratch or dent aluminum, especially
the thin skins of the rudder and elevators.
Best of luck on your second HS.
Jack Abell
RV-6A Empennage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Uudecode Problem Finale |
This is probably the last you guys want to hear about my Uudecode
problem, so it will be.
I had been having a lot of problems trying to download the archive file
in zip format, but decided to give it one more try. So I Ftp'd to
roxy.llnl.gov and began the download of the 2+ MB zip file once again.
Lo and behold this time it worked. Then I crossed my fingers and read
the file into Word for Windows 6.0. Over 6000 pages later, I have a
file that I can peruse to my hearts content.
I did a search on the first of each year and broke it into files by
year. Seems there is an exponential increase from year to year in the
number of messages flying around! But, again, I feel a large number
are very worthwhile.
I want to thank all of you who offered to help, put stuff on boards,
mail floppies, etc. For now, my problem is solved.
Best to all,
Bill Costello
RV-6 on the empennage
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | scratch protection |
>
Bill Pace said:
> A real problem that I have been having is in keeping skins and other parts
> from getting badly scratched up during construction. I pull out these nice,
> almost pristine parts and by the time I've finished working with it,
> scratches and dings abound. I try to keep my workbench clean, but "chips
> happen". I've heard of using Contact shelf paper to cover parts but have not
> tried this yet. I worried about how hard it would be to remove after I'm
> done. I would be real interested in hearing what others are doing to
> mitigate dings and scratches.
I bought a rubber door mat that has a surface of little cones of rubber
that the chips fall down between but keep your precious skin away from
all that scratchy nastyness. I also use strips of carpet to
support the ends of longer stuff.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ted_boudreaux(at)om.cv.hp.com |
| Subject: | New Guy in Oregon |
Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
Hello everyone,
My name is Ted Boudreaux. I am just starting on the empennage section
of an RV6A. I currently work as a technician at the Corvallis, Oregon
HP site. I would appreciate any information regarding nearby
(Corvallis, Albany, Salem) RV enthusiast groups or individual builders
I could contact. I am currently 22 years old, a student pilot (I
figure I'll have more than enough time to finish my license, as well
as get an instrument rating before this project is finished) and, of
course, an aircraft nut. Look forward to hearing from you soon!
Ted Boudreaux
ted_boudreaux@hp-pcd.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ted_boudreaux(at)om.cv.hp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Confessions of a dingbat |
I use a thick version of 1" clear plastic packing tape. I put strips
of the tape about every 4 inches or so on any parts that may get scratched.
This keep s the metal from touching the bench. The tape is a pain to take
off if it is left on for to long, but it's _alot_ better than removing
scratches. I bought the tape at a local tape store. That's all they sell,
just tape. It was about 50 cents a roll so I bought alot. I use it for
other jobs as well.
Chris
Ready to put the rear baffle on the first tank.
How about using that transparent plastic that adheres using moisture?
They make window decals out of the stuff. It sticks to shiny surfaces,
doesn't leave any residue, and peels right off when you want it to. I
don't know where you would get it in quantity, but it seems like it
would work.
Ted Boudreaux
ted_boudreaux@hp-pcd.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
>Ken: I based the return line for the fuel injection on the reccommendations
of
>Air Flo Performance fuel injection units. If you have NO return between the
fuel
>flow counter transducer and the engine then you would get an accurate fuel
usage
>from the VM-1000.
I believe it is also ggod practise to put a return line when using MOGAS to
keep it cool. Gotta be careful though that one tank isn't drained and another
filled. We had this problem on the Airbeetle with a return line split to both
tanks, it only went one way.
Ken
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: work bench and dinged parts |
On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Donald Karl wrote:
> I'm currently gearing up my shop to start a 6A and I'm going to
> build a 4x8 workbench. I was planning on using a top made of AC
> plywood. I'm also considering Formica (excuse me, plastic
> laminate). Formica is so easy to keep clean, maybe less metal
> chips would be left on top of it. Any advice???
I like to use particle board for my bench tops. I tend to use the
surface to back up material I am drilling, so I end up with lots of
little drill holes in the benchtop. Because it's particle board:
1. When it gets too bad I can just unscrew it and flip it over.
2. When I've used up both sides, another piece of particle board is cheap.
> Or do
> you folks find it necessary to beat on your main bench? Where
> would you ideally put the Avery tool? Any other workbench/space
> advice?
When I use the Avery tool for dimpling, I set it on the concrete floor.
The floor doesn't give at all.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Confessions of a dingbat |
>
> How about using that transparent plastic that adheres using moisture?
> They make window decals out of the stuff. It sticks to shiny surfaces,
> doesn't leave any residue, and peels right off when you want it to.
I
> don't know where you would get it in quantity, but it seems like it
> would work.
>
> Ted Boudreaux
> ted_boudreaux@hp-pcd.hp.com
>
Hmmmmmmm...I like that idea.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Which compressor should I buy? |
You WILL get pretty tired of the intense noise from the "oil-less" compressor
unless you somehow soundproof it. A couple of things I have learned recently
for those living in high humidity areas who get water drops in their paint.
Reduce the pressure setting in the main tank (it's a small screw in the
regulator) to about 90 psi and you will get less water fall-out. Crack the
water drain just slightly while you are painting so any water fall out will
come out as it forms. Arrange your parts such that you can spray on to a
vertical (or nearly so) surface. Any water droplets coming out the gun will
fall harmlessly on to the floor instead of your wing, etc. Rotating wing
stands such as in one of Tony Bingelis' articles work great for this.
Lastly, you can reduce or almost eliminate water getting into your gun or
air tools by doing THIS: Air from the main tank goes to 1/2 or 3/4 inch pvc
pipe down to the floor. Then into a 3 inch pvc pipe about a foot long and
parallel to the floor. Then another piece of 3 inch pvc vertically for about
a foot or so, and then into whatever fittings your hose requires.
Herman Dierks' posting about the 2 hp compressor is right on, but bigger is
better and will be more satisfying in the end because you can run die
grinders and disc sanders successfully. However, if you find your compressor
too small, you can borrow a friends (too small) compressor and connect it in
parallel with your (too small) compressor. It works just great, although you
might need to play with with the main tank pressures so they don't come on at
the same time and trip your breaker.
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX RV6/6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: work bench and dinged parts |
>I'm currently gearing up my shop to start a 6A and I'm going to
>build a 4x8 workbench. I was planning on using a top made of AC
>plywood. I'm also considering Formica (excuse me, plastic
>laminate). Formica is so easy to keep clean, maybe less metal
>chips would be left on top of it. Any advice??? I have plenty of
>space and can afford another small bench or something for beating
>on with a hammer, so breakage SHOULDN'T be an issue. Or do
>you folks find it necessary to beat on your main bench? Where
>would you ideally put the Avery tool? Any other workbench/space
>advice?
That other workbench needs an expendable wood top. You will find it handy many
times to drill into it far enough that you can cleco parts down to it.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Protecting from scratches -Reply |
Another method I use that I picked up from
John Monnett is to use plain old outdoor
carpeting. It works on the same principle.
>>> Gil Alexander
09/25/95 05:39pm >>>
>Hi all,
>
>I've been lurking on the list for some time
now so I figure it's time for a
**** snip *****
>A real problem that I have been having is
in keeping skins and other parts
>from getting badly scratched up during
construction. I pull out these nice,
>almost pristine parts and by the time I've
finished working with it,
>scratches and dings abound. I try to keep
my workbench clean, but "chips
>happen". I've heard of using Contact shelf
paper to cover parts but have not
>tried this yet. I worried about how hard
it would be to remove after I'm
>done. I would be real interested in
hearing what others are doing to
>mitigate dings and scratches.
Bill,
The level of scratches I was
generating on my skins, etc. really went
down when I purchased the 'rubber mesh'
workbench protector that Avery sells. It a
rubberized material about 1/8 inch thick
with a large (3/8 inch) mesh. Aluminum
chips just fall through the mesh and don't
scratch the skin surfaces.
It's a relatively new product from
Avery, I just wish I had it earlier. It
works much better than my previous 'sweep
the bench top all the time' method!
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
building the battery box ....
>
>Back to lurking,
>
>Bill Pace
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Day <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Preventing scratched skins |
I was also having a problem keeping my skins from being scratched. My
solution was to buy a roll of that bubble wrap (the kind your kids like to
pop) If you lay the skins on the bubble surface during drilling or
whatever, the metal chips just fall in between the bubbles while the skin
continues to rest on the top of the bubble. When you've finished drilling
that skin, just shake the bubble wrap and all the shavings fall into the
trash. It works for me....
By the way, while you're drilling you'll most likely pop several bubbles,
but the stuff tends to last longer than you'd think.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
I also used ratchet straps on my wings, with foam blocks in critical
areas to hold the skin down tightly. I got mine in a package of 6 or
eight for a ridiculously low price at Sam's Club. Significantly lower
than buying them singly. I've seen the packaged ones at other stores
since then, but can't remember where. Mine have plastic coated hooks on
the ends, straps are about 1 to 1 1/4 inch wide, way more than long
enough, and as I recall I used a four x four or something like that under
the rear spar to keep the straps off the trailing edge of the main skins,
as I installed the main skins first.
Jeff
RV4 2179 .. wings - still...
On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Steve Day wrote:
> This may be old news to many of you:
>
> I am working on the wings, and have been using the straps that come with the
> kit to pull the leading edge tight. Got tired of messing with the little
> metal connectors after removing the skins to double/triple/quadruple check
> measurements :-)
>
> So my solution was to buy some nice 1 inch wide cargo straps with a ratchet
> style connector. They are great. I recommend buying some if you're having
> the same frustration as I. Not only that, but now I'll use them as 'cargo
> straps' on my truck (imagine that). I'll be all set to pick up my fuselage
> with my new 'cargo straps'. (hehe)
>
> (they are a bit spending in my opinion) I got them at Ernsts for $10 a piece
> for the real good ones. (They have cheaper ones without the ratchet
> connector for $3 each, but I recommend the ratchet, you don't have to break
> a sweat to get the straps tight)
>
> -Steve Day
> sday(at)pharmcomp.com
> (CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | RE: work bench et al. |
> Where would you ideally put the Avery tool? Any other
> workbench/space advice?
You're asking this group if we have any advice????
My suggestion on benches is that more is better... in number of benches =
that is. You'll need a place to keep your plans spread out where you =
can flip from one page to another without having to move drills, etc. I =
also find it handy to have a clear bench to hold large parts (completed =
horizontal) when I need to set them down. One bench is used for =
drilling, holding all the tools I can never seem to find, etc. I work =
in a hangar so I am blessed with lots of room. I realize not everyone =
is, but if you can I suggest having two or three benches (4x6 is =
plenty).
The bench I use for holding large parts was actually built for the Avery =
dempling tool. I built it 4x6 and used plywood for the top (laminate =
would have worked just as well but I like being able to drill into the =
bench top). I cut a slot for the Avery tool to fit into and built a =
brace under the top to hold the tool. The top of the tool base sits =
just above the table top. Then I got a carpet scrap and cut it to fit =
the bench - with a hole to fit around the tool. What I have is a carpet =
covered bench with the base of the Avery tool exactly even with the =
carpet. The carpet helps avoid a lot of the scratches I would normally =
pick up dragging the skin across raw wood, and having the tool level =
with the work bench means I don't have to worry about unwanted bends in =
the alum. Works great and took about 2 hours to build. I also built a =
plug for the tool slot so when I'm not using the tool I have a table top =
with no hole in it. The carpet can pickup filings and such so I have to =
take it off and beat it periodically. Another RV builder saw it and =
build one himself. Works great.
BFGibbons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | RV-4 C.G. limited? |
>Steve Mayer asked;
>
>Are RV-4's CG limited with 2 adults aboard? I get the impression that they
>need a bit of weight up front to avoid CG problems, and I'd like to get
>opinions and experiences if I can regarding the CG range with two adults
>aboard, and one-up.
I calculated the original Weight and Balance sheets for John Martinez's RV-4.
His RV-4 weighed 905 pounds empty, and the empty c.g. was one inch aft of the
forward c.g. limit. With no baggage, and worst aft c.g. conditions, he could
still have a 229 pound passenger.
This statement only applies to his aircraft!!! It is very important
that each individual aircraft have its own weight and balance
calculations from as accurate a weighing of the empty aircraft as you
can get.
John's RV-4 had a Lyc O-320 of 150 Hp with a fixed pitch wood prop.
The pilot position is very close to the c.g. of the aircraft, so the c.g. of the
aircraft is relatively insensitive to the pilot weight. However, with the 229
pound passenger the maximum pilot weight is 174 pounds to stay within the gross
weight of that aircraft (1500 pounds) with full fuel.
When I installed the LOM engine in my RV-3, it shifted the c.g. forward so that
the minimum pilot weight was 193 pounds. Since the lightest pilot flying the
plane was 210 pounds, this wasn't a problem. However, I did not like the way
the plane handled in pitch. The elevator trim forces were higher, and I ran out
of elevator trim with the flaps down. I also found that my plane didn't feel
comfortable to fly below 100 mph.
This wasn't a problem in my RV-3, since I had moved everything as far forward
as possible in the plane with the Lyc O-290-G that was previously installed. I
moved the battery box from between the rudder pedals to the baggage
compartment, since this was the easiest solution. This moved the c.g. back to
the original position, I got back the original feel of th plane below 100 mph,
and the elevator trim is adequate to compensate for the flaps.
The minimum pilot weight is now 93 pounds. The maximum pilot weight is
limited by the gross weight of the plane, rather than the worst aft c.g.
condition.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Which compressor should I buy? |
Text item:
One caveat - be careful that the PVC pipe is not anywhere where
something can fall on it, because it may shatter (especially when it's
cold). How about just taking a 25' hose from the compressor, coiling it
up, and sticking it in a bucket of cold water - put your water trap
behind that, and your regular air hose from your water trap to the paint
gun. The worst water droplet problem will be when you're paint early in
the morning (fewest #'s of gnats), the compressor is running almost all
the time (and the heat is transferred to the air which than can hold a
lot of moisture which doesn't condense until way in the hose (which I
usually drag on through the cold, wet grass (doesn't everybody paint
their cars on their front lawn?). under those circumstances you will be
spraying water like it was coming from an Arizona mister.
rich klee
fuselage 6a
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: Which compressor should I buy?
Date: 9/26/95 10:32 AM
You WILL get pretty tired of the intense noise from the "oil-less" compressor
unless you somehow soundproof it. A couple of things I have learned recently
for those living in high humidity areas who get water drops in their paint.
Reduce the pressure setting in the main tank (it's a small screw in the
regulator) to about 90 psi and you will get less water fall-out. Crack the
water drain just slightly while you are painting so any water fall out will
come out as it forms. Arrange your parts such that you can spray on to a
vertical (or nearly so) surface. Any water droplets coming out the gun will
fall harmlessly on to the floor instead of your wing, etc. Rotating wing
stands such as in one of Tony Bingelis' articles work great for this.
Lastly, you can reduce or almost eliminate water getting into your gun or
air tools by doing THIS: Air from the main tank goes to 1/2 or 3/4 inch pvc
pipe down to the floor. Then into a 3 inch pvc pipe about a foot long and
parallel to the floor. Then another piece of 3 inch pvc vertically for about
a foot or so, and then into whatever fittings your hose requires.
Herman Dierks' posting about the 2 hp compressor is right on, but bigger is
better and will be more satisfying in the end because you can run die
grinders and disc sanders successfully. However, if you find your compressor
too small, you can borrow a friends (too small) compressor and connect it in
parallel with your (too small) compressor. It works just great, although you
might need to play with with the main tank pressures so they don't come on at
the same time and trip your breaker.
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX RV6/6A
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: Which compressor should I buy?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 07:40:17 -0400
I-4.1)
From: aol.com!DerFlieger(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joehine(at)mi.net (joehine) |
| Subject: | Vans Aircraft info |
Im a new internet user and I am also a RV4 builder and would like to hear
from any other builders. I am still not sure how all of this works and am
still exprimenting.
(It is definatly cutting into my building time right now) Hope to hear from
any one else.
Joe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Operation Revised! |
I've spent about 6 hours tonight writing some slick code that should make the
operation of the RV-LIST much smoother. Notice the following changes
about the list and header information:
1) All messages posted to the list will come from "rv-list(at)matronics.com",
and *not* the poster. This means that when you post and there are
problems getting to certain sites, you won't get a bunch of
error message telling you about it.
2) Look for a new header entitled "Message-Posted-By: xxxx xxxx". This
will actually be the person that posted the message. You can use
the information in this field directly if you want to reply back just
to that posting person.
3) By default, replys will now automatically go to the *whole list* not
just the person that posted.
4) The Header Field "Precedence: junk" has been added to all messages
coming from the List. For systems that recognize this field, basically
what it says is "if you have trouble delivering this message, throw it
away."
5) For those of you can sort and file messages based on the "from"
field, you should find this much easier now as all from fields will
have "rv-list(at)matronics.com" in them.
Again, I've made some pretty significant changes to the operation of the
List and no doubt there will be things that may not work quite right at
first. Please let me know if you see things aren't working correctly.
And finally, keep up the excellent and friendly RV conversions!
Matt Dralle
RV-LIST Administrator.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | remove me from mailinig list |
please remove me from rv mailing list
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-LIST Operation Revised! |
Could you please post AGAIN how to subscribe/unsubscribe?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | remove me from mailing list |
Please unsubscribe me.
Remove me from the mailing list.
Thanks!
___________________________________ ______________________________________
Steve Hurd e-mail : steveh(at)lsid.hp.com
___________________________________ ______________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | subscribe, please |
m e soward.....N63TX(at)AOL.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | Some aviation humor (BLATANT CHATTER) |
I realize that humor is not the subject of this list and I hope
that it does not offend anyone, but I couldn't resist. However,
that text is aviation related and (I think) somewhat in the spirit
of experimentation.
I hope that you get a chuckle from this.
Sorry to waste your time if you don't.
tw
Begin forwarded message:
Subject: RE: Humor
Thought you might like this.
Subject: Humor: News of the Weird
The FAA has a device for testing the strength of windshields on
airplanes.
They point this thing at the windshield of the aircraft and shoot a dead
chicken at about the speed the aircraft normally flies at it. If the
windshield doesn't break, it's likely to survive a real collision with a
bird during flight.
The British had recently built a new locomotive that could pull a train
faster than any before it. They were not sure that its windshield was
strong enough so they borrowed the testing device from the FAA, reset it
to approximate the maximum speed of the locomotive, loaded in the dead
chicken, and fired. The bird went through the windshield, broke the
engineer's chair, and made a major dent in the back wall of the
engine cab.
They were quite surprised with this result, so they asked the FAA
to check
the test to see if everything was done correctly. The FAA checked
everything and suggested that they might want to repeat the test using a
thawed chicken.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | remove from list |
please remove me from the rv list as I am moving and will get a new address.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | What aircraft was this fiberglass cap designed for? |
OK, I had to drill out my share of rivets and my horizontal has a few =
smiley faces... but I've been learning a lot and having fun. Until =
lately....
I'm working on the bottom faring for the rudder on an RV-6, the one =
formed to take a light. For those of you who have made this thing work, =
let me in on the secret.
It's obvious that I have to cut out the bottom of the rudder so the =
light will fit, and that I have to build some sort of block into the =
faring for the light to screw into. How did you guys do this? I'm =
thinking about using a cutting tool on an air driven grinder to cut out =
the bottom of the rudder. Somehow it goes against my better judgement =
to cut a hunk out of something I worked so hard to build. =20
How do I make the seam between fiberglass and rudder look good - without =
using body filler? Is it possible?
Thanks,
B F (Hey Van, where are my wings?) Gibbons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-LIST Operation Revised! |
> 1) All messages posted to the list will come from "rv-list(at)matronics.com",
> and *not* the poster. This means that when you post and there
> are problems getting to certain sites, you won't get a bunch
> of error message telling you about it.
>
> 2) Look for a new header entitled "Message-Posted-By: xxxx xxxx".
> This will actually be the person that posted the message. You can
> use the information in this field directly if you want to reply
> back just to that posting person.
Er, actually, the way all the other lists I'm on manage this is they leave
the "From:" line alone, but put the list name in the "Sender:" and the
"Reply-To:" header. And they have an "Errors-To:" to catch the errors.
> 5) For those of you can sort and file messages based on the "from"
> field, you should find this much easier now as all from fields will
> have "rv-list(at)matronics.com" in them.
I Do sort messages based on the "From:" line. It looks really wierd when I
can't tell who the message is actually from.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | Re: remove me from mailinig list |
PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAILING LIST
JRaineriii(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | Message status - undeliverable |
The message that you sent was undeliverable to the following:
leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU
Information about your message:
Subject: Re: remove me from mailinig list
Message-Id: <950927172341_110785211(at)mail06.mail.aol.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rv-list(at)matronics.com (The Internet Email List For RV Enthusiasts) |
| Subject: | Re: New guy on the list |
Randall,
I probably won't have it started by then, as I am working with crewing on a
Formula Ford in Ohio in Mid October and then going to Hong Kong on vacation in
November! Possibly a tail kit will be ordered in a few weeks though. I'm going
to go to Phoenix in mid-October to look at the RV4, RV8 (if it's there) and the
Rocket. I'm leaning toward RV4 or Rocket (I don't like the cowl or gear
appearance of the RV8). In the mean time I'g getting my tool lists together.
Years of racing cars give me surprisingly few of the needed tools!
I live in Pukalani, which is about 6 miles up the road from the Kahului airport
to Haleakala. I'm also working on house plans (in Haiku), which is where I plan
to do the majority of the construction if I ever get it built. Drop a line
before you come and we can get a beer (and I can pick your brain!) Airplane
rentals are available (Airwave Aviation) after a very reasonable checkout in a
172. I think it is about $70/hr, and worth it to see the north shore of Maui
and Molokai.
I haven't met Jerry, but have met many other NW pilots who are building or
flying RV's (Marty Foy, Wes Shierman, Steve Crawford, Bert Novak, Dan Guildner
and others). As far as I am aware, there are no RV's based on Maui and last
time I checked there had only been a set of RV6 plans sent to an address on Maui
but no word since. This is all about a year old info. There is a very nice RV4
on Oahu and another on Hawaii.
I'm in SFO on my way home from a checkride in MSP. I can be reached here on CI$
or even easier on the net at: russ(at)maui.net. My internet mail forwards to my
CI$ address when I'm on the road (usually Asia).
Aloha,
Russ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | RV-LIST Information - Please Read! |
Hello everyone,
I must again apologize for the RV-LIST fiasco last week. I have "shot the
wad" as it were and implemented some real "list server" software. After
a lot of configuration and head scratching, I believe that I have all the
bugs worked out. The new software brings many new features to the RV-LIST.
Many of these are described in the new RV-LIST FAQ listed below. Could
someone take it upon themselves to see that this new FAQ is distributed to all
of the right places?? Thank you.
If you sent an *unsubscribe* message in the last two weeks, you will be
required to do so again. I did not process any of them by hand. Please
read the instructions below so that the process can be completely automated.
If you *subscribe* message in the last couple of weeks, I did go ahead and
add you by hand. If you requested the Archive file by email, however, I did
not send it. You may not obtain it automatically by sending special commands
the the List Server as described in the FAQ below.
If you have any comments on the FAQ (some additional input would be very nice),
or any comments on the operation of the new list-processor, please send it
to "request(at)matronics.com". This address will by pass the list-processor
front end.
I think everyone will be very happy with the new setup. It seems to work
very well, and will certainly decrease my rv-list work load a great deal.
Be sure to read over the new FAQ below to find out about all the new commands
that are available, then start posting some RV Information!!!!
Thanks,
Matt Dralle
RV-LIST Adminstrator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mvz(at)cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Zenner) |
Hello Everyone.
My name is Michael Zenner, and I am a graduate student at the University of
California at Santa Cruz. I've been flying for about 10 years, having
learned at Hillsboro Airport in Hillsboro, Oregon. This is where I first
fell in love with the RV's. I intend to start building mine as soon as I am
finished with grad school, so I will be spending the next couple of years on
high-soak mode, in the hopes that I will be able to get a solid handle on
the specifics of RV construction before I get started.
I'm looking forward to a great list!
------------------------------------------------------
Michael Zenner
mvz(at)cats.ucsc.edu
Program In Experimental Psychology
University of California, Santa Cruz
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | aortner(at)interserv.com |
| Subject: | BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6 Wings.
I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
I would be happy to get direct E-Mail on this if you don't wish to publish
your comments for everyone. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | Builders' Clinic Post Mortem |
Listers -- for those of you interested in, and/or considering a stop at the
Van's Builders Clinic, a few thoughts and comments from the Clinic that I
attended last week. This is pretty long winded, so those not interested, hit
the delete button now!
Overall Assessment -- This is an EXCELLENT course,
both in terms of net knowledge received, and in terms of building confidence
in your ability to complete the project. I left for Oregon just about (but
not quite) committed to the RV-6, but by Thursday, I had got my Empennage Kit
on order, and I'm now anxiously awaiting its arrival. In other words, in
just a couple of days, the course had put me at ease about the whole
decision, and I made the big step. Of particular value was a Q&A on Friday
morning on getting going with the Empennage Kit, and I feel that I have a
really good idea of how to get the thing started.
Content -- You really
get a chance to get your hands on the work. The first day, we were already
flush riveting, and by the end of the second day, we had built something that
looked pretty darn close to a control surface. Wedesday and Thursday we
pretty much built up the basics of a wing. Friday, we made a tool that will
be a real treat to adjust the rod end bearings in the empennage. Scattered
into all of that was a visit to the factory (see below), and a demo flight in
an RV-6A (both excellent).
Factory Visit -- One real surprise for me was
the visit to the factory. I really had no idea what to expect in terms of
the layout of the factory, but it is quite the operation. I understand that
Van employs something like 30+ people, and I believe I recall them saying
that they send out something like 25+ empennage kits per week, which gives
you some idea of the magnitude of the operation. The plant fills three big
buildings, and they are all jammed to the rafters with RV parts in all stages
of preparation, from raw sheet, to being packed in boxes ready for UPS. It
is a really professional, modern and efficient operation, and well worth the
visit in and of itself.
Participants -- Our class was a really varied
bunch, but a great bunch of folks to say the least. Participants were from
every walk of life; from aeronautical engineering, medicine, Air Force,
avionics engineering and everything in between. All participants were pretty
much at the same level in terms of the RV however, and it was a comfortable
environment in which to learn. The prize for "longest distance travelled"
went to a fella that came all the way from London, England to attend.
"Ask
Van" -- A real treat on Friday morning was a Q&A with Van himself, and he was
very candid and inciteful about his products, his company and his view of
general aviation and homebuilding in general.
Instructors -- The course
was taught by Phil Dyke and Ken Scott...both of which are excellent
instructors. My apologies to Phil if I haven't got his name spelled quite
right. They cover a lot of ground, and really throw you in and get you
immersed in the stuff. They are competant, have a fantastic knowledge of
construction techniques in general and the RV series in particular. They
teach with diligence, and with a good sense of humour, both of which I
appreciated. Art Chard has now retired (or so we were told), and is no
longer teaching the clinic. It's hard to imagine how anyone could have done
any better than Phil and Ken, though.
Hint -- Buy your tools before you
go, and take them with you. There is a fair amount of time to try stuff out,
and it's a great opportunity for you to get to know your tools in various
types of applications. There are tools there, but not really enough to go
around. One occupational hazard is that when you try out some of the neat
(but expensive stuff) they have, you pretty much have to have it! (eg.
pneumatic squeezer).
Accommodations & Extra Curricular Activities -- I
chose to stay at the "as-yet-not-quite-finished" Barnstormer Bed & Breakfast
at Scappoose Airport...it was a delight. Hap, Christine and Virginia have
got a place with serious potential, although there is still a little work to
do. The rate was excellent, and they sent me out the door stuffed to the
gills each morning with a home cooked breakfast. Don't be put off by the
commute back and forth to North Plains...it never took me more than a half
hour each morning. They even have a little floor show (Sanka) that will
undoubtedly keep you entertained, but I'll leave it to you to figure that one
out! Ask Hap to show you his beautiful Starduster Too with a Ranger engine,
and get a tour of the Oregon Aero factory at the same time. Scappoose
Airport appears to be a real hive of activity. I'm looking forward to
someday flying (in my RV-6) into Scappoose and staying at the Barnstormer
once again. Also, I had a chance to check out Don Wentz's RV-6, and he has
done a FANTASTIC job on it.
In case you're wondering, this is NOT a paid
commercial endorsement! I believe in being enthusiastic about something has
impressed me. If any Lister has any questions, please do not hesitate to
drop me a line...and perhaps the other Listers that attended want to throw in
their two cents worth as well...cheers...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Waiting For The Empennage Kit"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL |
DEBURRING
As I sit thinking about the thousands of holes in my cleco covered fueselage,
I realize I do not know an important thing about drilling holes in aluminum.
HOW DO YOU MINIMIZE BURRS?
Given the variables in drilling, drill sharpness, speed, drilling pressure,
hardness of the aluminum, what is the best way to reduce burs. I recognize
that all holes need to be de-burred on both sides, regardless, to avoid
stress risers. But if the burrs are minimum size, you can avoid
countersinking the skins.
HOW DO YOU REMOVE BURRS?
This is what I am using for the majority of the holes.
Not wanting to develop carpal tunnel syndrome (SP?), I found an excellent
deburring tool when doing the wing skins. My criteria are for a good
deburring tool are:
1. Electrical, or pneumatic
2. Light weight, for ease of controlling the pressure on the part
3. Very slow speed, about 120 RPM.
If you figure 1 revolution of a deburring tool to do the job, this means .5
- 1 seconds applied to the hole, 1 second to move the tool, results in 30
holes per minute. If it spins too fast, you will countersink the hole.
I use a Sears battery powered screwdriver, part number 11141, just
coincidentally shown in a Sears National Hardware sales add running today.
(Page 2 at the bottom. $19.95). I just wedged a deburring bit into the
business end using tape to shim the threads on the bit. Since you don't
apply much torque, this works. The only problem I had was the batteries last
about 1 hour, but that is all I last. Just remember to stick it in the
charger any time it is not in use.
On a HP-18 I built (15 meter medium-high performance glider), I used a
ruberized grinding wheel that would remove burrs, and a touch of the
surface. I only used this on the very thick material that would be later
primed. I figured it might completely remove the thin layer of pure aluminim
on the surface, leaving problems with corrosion withour priming. It worked
very well on the spar caps which were drilled at 1" centers with #30. They
were machined from 2" 7075-T651 stock, and the material removed was small.
(that is 12X50'x4, 2400 holes)
If there are about15,000 rivets in a RV, that means a minimum of 60,000
deburring operations. Try it., and of course provide comments
Bruce Patton
Fues in the jig, full of holes
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | veideman(at)junction.net (Dusty Veideman) |
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
>I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
>out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6 Wings.
>I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
>Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
>
>I would be happy to get direct E-Mail on this if you don't wish to publish
>your comments for everyone. Thanks.
>
>
Hi!
I wouldn't be scared to order the prepunched wing kit! It wasn't available
when I got mine, but a friend of mine a few blocks away from me got the very
first one they made prepunched and it was absolutely worth it. I figure it
saves you about 150 hours of work and they are much more accurate than you
can be. The prepunched shins line themselves up more automatically so no
mistakes.
Also I would recommend Ordorff's video's. I figue that them alone saved me
over 500 hours. Well worth it there too.
Anyway, I've completed my RV-6 in August and my first flight was on Sept
1/95. Now I have 28 hours on it and took my first cross country today!
I was pleased as punch when my good friend that got me started in the kit,
who has a RV-6 180HP constant speed, joined me on a leg back home. I
couldn't believe it but he had a hard time to catch up to me. I actually
had to throttle back a little. I'm running a 180hp fixed pitch Aymar-Demuth
68x78 IFR prop. When we landed, he quickly took down their address!!! He is
building another one and is half ways through!
Why pay for that C/S when fixed works just as good if not better. I
forgot....we also took off in tandem and I outclimed him too!! I rally
didn't know that at the time because I lost sight of him because he was
behind me.
Anyway, enough bragging, but it certainly made my day. I was lighter, I
figure bu ar least 150 lbs.
Regard,
Dusty
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | veideman(at)junction.net (Dusty Veideman) |
| Subject: | Re: " Introduction. |
>Hello Everyone.
>
>My name is Michael Zenner, and I am a graduate student at the University of
>California at Santa Cruz. I've been flying for about 10 years, having
>learned at Hillsboro Airport in Hillsboro, Oregon. This is where I first
>fell in love with the RV's. I intend to start building mine as soon as I am
>finished with grad school, so I will be spending the next couple of years on
>high-soak mode, in the hopes that I will be able to get a solid handle on
>the specifics of RV construction before I get started.
>
> I'm looking forward to a great list!
>
>------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Zenner
> mvz(at)cats.ucsc.edu
> Program In Experimental Psychology
> University of California, Santa Cruz
>
>Best of luck, Mike. You certainly can't go wrong with the RV's. I've got
almost 2000 hrs in various types such as 150's, 172's, Colts, Citabrias,
Super Cub's, C-310's and C-185's, but there's nothing like an RV. It was a
rejuvination in Flying for me.
Best of luck again in your endeavors....
The only thing I did wrong was wait until now, I should have done this 10
years ago!!!
Regards,
Dusty Veideman
Revelstoke, British Columbia
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | The second wing DOES go faster |
I finished the left wing of my RV-6 Labor Day weekend, and have made a
lot of progress on the right wing. Since I've got the completed skeleton
in the jig and am about ready to drill the skins to it, I had the
opportunity to compare the amount of time spent getting this far on the
right wing vs. how long it took to get the left wing to this point.
So far I've got 30 hours in the right wing. As I look at my builder's
log, I had 78 hours in the left wing at this point. Keep in mind that a
good portion of that (27 hours, to be exact) was occupied by:
building both rear spars simulateously
fluting the ribs for both wings
building both aileron bellcranks and bellcrank brackets
etc.
but even taking that into account, the very tasks that took 51 hours the
first time have taken only 30 hours the second time.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL |
I guess ingenuity will always prevail and good ideas will continue to
re-appear!. Bob Avery sells an "adaptor" which is a couple inches long that
will mate your electric screwdriver hex socket to a 1/4x 28 tool, such as a
deburring bit, a threaded drill bit, etc. Great idea! I use a Black and
Decker version which has removable batteries, and you can always have one on
the charger. It also has a torque control which is sometimes helpful. After
I debur a lot of holes I get tired holding the switch down, so I put a clamp
(or tape) on it to keep it running. Works great!
Jim Stugart
RV6/A
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
I have two of their light kits. They were first class.
I am probably going to purchase their firewall kit when I order my fuse.
don mack
rv-6a (completed left wing last weekend!)
>I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
>out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6 Wings.
>I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
>Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
>
>I would be happy to get direct E-Mail on this if you don't wish to publish
>your comments for everyone. Thanks.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> I guess ingenuity will always prevail and good ideas will continue to
> re-appear!. Bob Avery sells an "adaptor" which is a couple inches long that
> will mate your electric screwdriver hex socket to a 1/4x 28 tool, such as a
> deburring bit, a threaded drill bit, etc. Great idea! I use a Black and
> Decker version which has removable batteries, and you can always have one on
> the charger. It also has a torque control which is sometimes helpful. After
> I debur a lot of holes I get tired holding the switch down, so I put a clamp
> (or tape) on it to keep it running. Works great!
> Jim Stugart
> RV6/A
> Austin, TX
>
It's real easy to over-do deburing. The idea is to just break the edge
of the hole. I use a "pin vice" and a small "multi-fluted countersink". I
find that it is faster cheeper and offers more controll of the process than
any other method I tried.
Chris
Working on the tanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
I bought the BAC fastbuild kit and loved it. All the part which need
to be fabricated are all done for
you. Most of the parts are gold anodized. It saved me hundreds of
hours in fabrication time and in
some cases, mulling over the plans as BAC provides drawing for most of
the parts they supply. I
got my kit pre-prepunched skins which I am sure will shave more time
off the build time. I also
built both wings at the same time. This was also very helpful and
saved time.
Ross Mickey
6-A F-605 bulkhead installation
I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6
Wings.
I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
I would be happy to get direct E-Mail on this if you don't wish to
publish
your comments for everyone. Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL (fwd) |
IMHO, the manual deburring tool works just fine. This is a tool with a screwdriver
type handle and the shank has a dog-leg bend in it. You simply spin this a few
times
and you are done. It only takes a couple of turns to knock the edge off.
You do not want to make a large chamfer. This was discussed on the list a few
months back. It was noted that some of the shops simply use a stone to knock the
edge off. On these thin sheets, it you deburr too much on both sides you simply
have a V
^ shaped hole.
The took I used came from Sid Golden. I think Avery sells one also (this was about
4 yrs ago) but I did not like his as well. He may now have more than one type.
The one I use is very short (about 5 or 6" long) with a black handle.
Averys had an optioal extension that could be added or removed.
Herman
> From root Mon Oct 2 11:08:03 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> From: aol.com!DerFlieger(at)matronics.com
> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:39:59 -0400
> Message-Id: <951002073958_114193915(at)mail06.mail.aol.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I guess ingenuity will always prevail and good ideas will continue to
> re-appear!. Bob Avery sells an "adaptor" which is a couple inches long that
> will mate your electric screwdriver hex socket to a 1/4x 28 tool, such as a
> deburring bit, a threaded drill bit, etc. Great idea! I use a Black and
> Decker version which has removable batteries, and you can always have one on
> the charger. It also has a torque control which is sometimes helpful. After
> I debur a lot of holes I get tired holding the switch down, so I put a clamp
> (or tape) on it to keep it running. Works great!
> Jim Stugart
> RV6/A
> Austin, TX
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL -Reply |
I've got the exact same setup. That reminds
me I need to get a second battery.
Jim
RV6 23082 ailerons done flaps next.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | request (RV-LIST Request Service) |
| Subject: | Administator Speaks.... |
Please make sure that your replys are send to "rv-list(at)matronics.com" and
*NOT* "rv-list-owner(at)matronics.com".
Thanks,
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
--- Forwarded mail from GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO)
>From GETIPSWO(at)uop.com Mon Oct 2 11:15:52 1995
From: GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 19 95:98
Subject: RV-List: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings -Reply
I bought BAC's quick build (not the deluxe one, which includes pre-drilled
skins, etc.) wing kit and two of his landing light kits. Others have spoken
of the high quality of his kits and I agree. I surely save a lot of time using
the quick build kit. I can't give a quantitative assessment of time savings
because I have not kept track of building time. I am happy with my
decision to buy for three reasons:
1. Excellent builder support. I have found Steve to be the most credible
and available source of technical support. Obviously, he is marketing the
value of his components, but I have realized an unexpected benefit from
having access to his knowlege.
2. Accelerated Build Time.
3. Highest quality standards.
I will also buy his firewall kit.
Hope this helps; recommend highly if you have the $$$ and a desire to
save time *****.
Greg Tipsword
Left wing done, Right wing in progress.
>>> interser @ SMTP (interserv.com!aortner)
{owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com} 10/01/95 06:22pm >>>
I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6 Wings.
I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
I would be happy to get direct E-Mail on this if you don't wish to publish
your comments for everyone. Thanks.
--- End of forwarded message from GETIPSWO(at)uop.com (GETIPSWO)
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
>>
>> I guess ingenuity will always prevail and good ideas will continue to
>> re-appear!. Bob Avery sells an "adaptor" which is a couple inches long that
>> will mate your electric screwdriver hex socket to a 1/4x 28 tool, such as a
>> deburring bit, a threaded drill bit, etc. Great idea! I use a Black and
>> Decker version which has removable batteries, and you can always have one on
>> the charger. It also has a torque control which is sometimes helpful. After
>> I debur a lot of holes I get tired holding the switch down, so I put a clamp
>> (or tape) on it to keep it running. Works great!
>> Jim Stugart
>> RV6/A
>> Austin, TX
>>
>
> It's real easy to over-do deburing. The idea is to just break the edge
>of the hole. I use a "pin vice" and a small "multi-fluted countersink". I
>find that it is faster cheeper and offers more controll of the process than
>any other method I tried.
>
> Chris
>
> Working on the tanks.
I prefer a drill bit (about #8, but nor critical) pushed into a
wooden file handle. The 135 degrees of drill bit attacks more of the burr,
and produces less of a countersink than the 100 degree countersinking
tools. Very little pressure is needed as you rotate the bit - not my idea,
but came from Tony Bingelis.
As mentioned before, the spec. for deburring is to produce a
countersink less than 10% of the material thickness. Don't get carried
away.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... completed aft turtledeck, even mounted
a comm. antenna!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> It's real easy to over-do deburing. The idea is to just break the edge
> of the hole. I use a "pin vice" and a small "multi-fluted countersink". I
> find that it is faster cheeper and offers more controll of the process than
> any other method I tried.
>
> Chris
What's a "pin vice"? Where did you get your "multi-fluted countersink"?
How many flutes is "multi"?
As for avoiding over-deburring, on the thin skins I often use a small
(1") scotch-brite wheel on a die-grinder and just touch the hole as
lightly as possible to get the burr off. A little more tedious than
traditional deburring, but with practice you can remove the burr
without removing any extra material. Also, be sure to use sharp drill
bits -- they leave less of a burr in the first place.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette -FT-~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
> I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
> out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6
> Wings.
> I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
> Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
I purchased both the fast build kit as well as Steve's Deluxe Fast Build
Assy option for my RV4 kit. Steve takes delivery of your wing kit, fast build
kit, and phlogiston spars. He then completely assembles the entire wing skeleton
for you in his hard tooling, drilling all your ribs, spars,control surface spars,
straightens all your ribs with the flutes in just the right spots to match the
pre-
punched skins, assembles the tank structure, etc. The skeleton is completely
assembled with clecos, the taken back apart and crated up, sent back to you. He
clearly
numbers all the parts so no mix ups occur in reassembly, he provides extra drawings
or
instructions similar to Frank Justice's to clear up any sticky spots in the plans.
The whole deal is not cheap, 1500 for the fast build kit and 2100 for the
assembly
but this can be rationalized in a couple of ways. First, is your time worth anything?
If
so then you've saved yourself a LOT of time. Assuming your jig is ready, each wing
can be
ready to skin in about 8 hours! Second, ALL the hard/scary/tedious stuff is done
for you,
and it's all very accurate. Ask someone who did it, and see how many times they
checked
before drilling the holes to locate the ailerons to the rear spar. It just takes
all the
guesswork out of it and lets you assemble rather than fabricate parts, then measure,
then
assemble.
It's obviously not for everyone. Heck, for 3600 bucks, thats most of a
constant
speed prop, or a radio/GPS/insruments, blah blah blah. It boils down to, if you
have the money
,don't be a chump, save yourself the time. The object IS after all, to FLY right?
So anything
that gets you to that point quicker is reasonably justified. If the money isn't
there, so what,
there are over a thousand folks who did it the old/hard/different way (how do you
phrase this
without insulting people) and their planes turned out just fine. Heck, some people
LIKE to build
so it's totally a personal decision as to what makes sense for you. The old saying
about
"time is money" is really applicable here. If you want to spend less time building,
it costs money
and vice versa. For the really rich/busy/mechanically challenged, spend 15-20k
and have someone build
it for you, though it looks like the "hired gun" days are numbered, if not gone
all together. The
Friendly Aviator Assoc. has apparently said "If the plans say to build 30 ribs,
you're expected to
build 30 ribs."
Anyway, I'm very happy with the purchase, and would do it again. Is it
"worth" it, gotta
answer that one yourself.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4 N4MF
Phoenix, Az.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gbroglin(at)glasscity.net (H. Gene Broglin) |
Does anyone have any information on the finger fuel filter pickup.
I understand it was in the Rvator some time ago but I have not been able to
find it
Thanks
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Shelby1138(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
I bought the BAC kit and think it is great! Like others have said all the
fabricated parts are pre-Fab and super high quality. Steve seems to have
applied his engineering/drafting background to these projects. He is always
very attentive and helpful.
Just this morning I was having a problem understanding Van's drawings and
Frank Justices' notes concerning the access cover and the W-425 gussets. I
had been following Frank's notes, but there were a couple of pieces confusing
me. After about two minutes with Steve on the phone and a fax with three
drawings everything is crystal clear. Frank's notes here suggest not using a
shim on the gusset and cutting away some of the flange that interferes with
the support plate(reinforcing ring). You then rivet an angle below the 425
gusset where it will not interfere with the nutplates. Steve pointed out,
rightly so, that taking the flange off and then riveting another angle on was
really more trouble than putting a small spacer in as Van has suggested in
his plans. Steve also noted he included this spacer, pre-drilled for me
already.
There have been numerous times Steve has sent me a replacement part or walked
me through a tedious area. Also, I just bought the landing light kit and it
is superb! One reason I went with this (in the leading edge) option is Steve
is working on new wingtips and fairings which sound promising.
I guess in summary, it is hard to pay the extra money when a big factor, at
least for me was the initial value of the kit. The quality, the time, and the
feeling of better quality construction all have left me with no regrets with
respect to Steve's kit. You will be seeing and hearing alot more from Steve
Barnard.
Shelby Smith
RV6A in Nashville
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> What's a "pin vice"? Where did you get your "multi-fluted countersink"?
> How many flutes is "multi"?
>
A "pin vice" is a small hand held chuck with a handle. You can put
drill bits and other shanked tools in it. They can be had from any
machine-shop supply house. The multi fluted countersink has six cutting
edges. It makes for a very smooth cut with just one quick twist of the
tool when mounted in the pin vice. The countersink s come in many
different sizes and angles of cut. I use the 3/16"- 45 Deg. version.
The 100 Deg. may be better. The cutter is about $6. I don't remember what
I paid for the set of 4 pin vices.
A trip to one of these stores is a good idea for any builder. There
is alot of stuff to make metal working easy. If you like tools, it's
even better.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | Barnard wing kit... |
I got the info. and talked to Theresa about their "deluxe" kit. The one
thing I still don't really understand is that it has "no impact" on the
51% rule. Theresa indicated that the builder still does all of the assembly
and that is why you don't affect the 51% rule. I'm sure VAn wouldn't offer
it, if this were not true. Still, I don't really understand how that works
I guess I just don't really understand the 51% rule.
You still have to build the tanks and some people seem to think this alone
should qualify you under the 51% rule.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Espen Dahl <dahl(at)oslonett.no> |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
Hi everyone!
I`m building an RV-4 just outside Oslo in Norway. Most of my flying has
been logged in old Cessnas, and all it took to decide for the RV-4 was
one single flight with a 180 hp powered c/s RV-4. Now that was a real
responsive aircraft!
Building RV-4 serial 2770 started about a year ago, and I still haven`t
completed the empennage. (Both elevators and trim tab remains).
Building an RV obviously takes a lot of time if you want good results.
Two of my friends started building in 1987 and still haven`t completed
their projects. I`m sure the results will be excellent.
My goal is to complete my RV-4 before i turn 40 (I`m 34 now...).
A lot of people spend so many years building, and start their project
so late that their medical may cause problems when the project is
complete. Take my humble advice: enjoy building and enjoy flying during
the building time as well. Even if your flying will be in a old beaten
Cessna in an aero club...
If you`re relatively young; start building now, the expensive
components will not be needed in 5-8 years anyway.
By the way, my two months old daughter hinted that completing 2770
before I turn 40 may be a "tad" optimistic!
Best regards,
Espen Dahl
Norway
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeremy <jbenedic(at)uofport.edu> |
| Subject: | RV6A For Sale (Orndorff) |
[Forwarded on behalf of George Orndorff]
FOR SALE
RV6A w/ new 0320 CS prop 264 TT
contact George or Becki Orndorff
301 293-1505
this is the white plane on the
empenage construstion tapes.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (hsutphin) |
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
One question comes to mind about the fast build stuff. How did the FAA
inspection go for you, were they looking for photos that verified you were
the 51% builder, or weren't they concerned that the wing was prekitted? Any
thoughts or observations by anyone that has had the final inspection
completed and an RV signed off?
Harold
>> I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
>> out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6
>> Wings.
>> I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
>> Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
>
> I purchased both the fast build kit as well as Steve's Deluxe Fast Build
>Assy option for my RV4 kit. Steve takes delivery of your wing kit, fast build
>kit, and phlogiston spars. He then completely assembles the entire wing
skeleton
>for you in his hard tooling, drilling all your ribs, spars,control surface
spars,
>straightens all your ribs with the flutes in just the right spots to match
the pre-
>punched skins, assembles the tank structure, etc. The skeleton is completely
>assembled with clecos, the taken back apart and crated up, sent back to
you. He clearly
>numbers all the parts so no mix ups occur in reassembly, he provides extra
drawings or
>instructions similar to Frank Justice's to clear up any sticky spots in the
plans.
> The whole deal is not cheap, 1500 for the fast build kit and 2100 for
the
assembly
>but this can be rationalized in a couple of ways. First, is your time worth
anything? If
>so then you've saved yourself a LOT of time. Assuming your jig is ready,
each wing can be
>ready to skin in about 8 hours! Second, ALL the hard/scary/tedious stuff is
done for you,
>and it's all very accurate. Ask someone who did it, and see how many times
they checked
>before drilling the holes to locate the ailerons to the rear spar. It just
takes all the
>guesswork out of it and lets you assemble rather than fabricate parts, then
measure, then
>assemble.
> It's obviously not for everyone. Heck, for 3600 bucks, thats most of a
constant
>speed prop, or a radio/GPS/insruments, blah blah blah. It boils down to, if
you have the money
>,don't be a chump, save yourself the time. The object IS after all, to FLY
right? So anything
>that gets you to that point quicker is reasonably justified. If the money
isn't there, so what,
>there are over a thousand folks who did it the old/hard/different way (how
do you phrase this
>without insulting people) and their planes turned out just fine. Heck, some
people LIKE to build
>so it's totally a personal decision as to what makes sense for you. The old
saying about
>"time is money" is really applicable here. If you want to spend less time
building, it costs money
>and vice versa. For the really rich/busy/mechanically challenged, spend
15-20k and have someone build
>it for you, though it looks like the "hired gun" days are numbered, if not
gone all together. The
>Friendly Aviator Assoc. has apparently said "If the plans say to build 30
ribs, you're expected to
>build 30 ribs."
> Anyway, I'm very happy with the purchase, and would do it again. Is it
"worth" it, gotta
>answer that one yourself.
>Rgds
>Mike Fredette
>RV4 N4MF
>Phoenix, Az.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (hsutphin) |
| Subject: | Re: DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL |
I have used the Avery dog-leg tool for the thicker aluminum pieces. When the
space gets tight or the alum. gets thin (ie.. .016 skins) I take the
multi-flute tip off and spin it between my index finger and thumb to debur.
I can control the pressure very well and can also "feel" any burrs.. In
tight spots, where I can't get a tool or my hand, I put a short piece of
rubber or poly tubing on the multi-flute tip and use that to guide into
tight areas (ie.. inside rib flanges) and spin the tube between my fingers.
The important point is not to debur too much (the rule is not more than 10%
of the thickness of the aluminum). Whatever tools / techniques you get
comfortable using, stick to them, and you'll get consistent results.
In drilling holes in aluminum, the best way to avoid burrs is to tightly
hold the pieces to be drilled together and to back it up with something
hard, if possible. For example, I have drilled my skins on a 1/2 " sheet of
Luan plywood and made sure the bit was sharp. If you drill with no backing,
there is some tear out (which in aluminum is a burr). Think about all the
holes you've ever drilled in wood, the one's that came out the cleanest were
the ones with a backing board, same applies to any soft material.
Harold
RV-6A
//finishing the empennage kit//
>DEBURRING
>
>As I sit thinking about the thousands of holes in my cleco covered fueselage,
>I realize I do not know an important thing about drilling holes in aluminum.
>
> HOW DO YOU MINIMIZE BURRS?
>
>Given the variables in drilling, drill sharpness, speed, drilling pressure,
>hardness of the aluminum, what is the best way to reduce burs. I recognize
>that all holes need to be de-burred on both sides, regardless, to avoid
>stress risers. But if the burrs are minimum size, you can avoid
>countersinking the skins.
>
>HOW DO YOU REMOVE BURRS?
>
>This is what I am using for the majority of the holes.
>
> Not wanting to develop carpal tunnel syndrome (SP?), I found an excellent
>deburring tool when doing the wing skins. My criteria are for a good
>deburring tool are:
>1. Electrical, or pneumatic
>2. Light weight, for ease of controlling the pressure on the part
>3. Very slow speed, about 120 RPM.
> If you figure 1 revolution of a deburring tool to do the job, this means .5
>- 1 seconds applied to the hole, 1 second to move the tool, results in 30
>holes per minute. If it spins too fast, you will countersink the hole.
>
>I use a Sears battery powered screwdriver, part number 11141, just
>coincidentally shown in a Sears National Hardware sales add running today.
> (Page 2 at the bottom. $19.95). I just wedged a deburring bit into the
>business end using tape to shim the threads on the bit. Since you don't
>apply much torque, this works. The only problem I had was the batteries last
>about 1 hour, but that is all I last. Just remember to stick it in the
>charger any time it is not in use.
>
>On a HP-18 I built (15 meter medium-high performance glider), I used a
>ruberized grinding wheel that would remove burrs, and a touch of the
>surface. I only used this on the very thick material that would be later
>primed. I figured it might completely remove the thin layer of pure aluminim
>on the surface, leaving problems with corrosion withour priming. It worked
>very well on the spar caps which were drilled at 1" centers with #30. They
>were machined from 2" 7075-T651 stock, and the material removed was small.
> (that is 12X50'x4, 2400 holes)
>
>If there are about15,000 rivets in a RV, that means a minimum of 60,000
>deburring operations. Try it., and of course provide comments
>
>Bruce Patton
>Fues in the jig, full of holes
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
It's in Van's latest optional parts catalogue, page 35...
part no. F FUEL TANK PU W/SCREEN $12.00
I was looking for the flop tube in there, didn't find it!
Jeff Hall
RV4 2179
Go Rockies!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Barnard wing kit... |
> I got the info. and talked to Theresa about their "deluxe" kit. The one
> thing I still don't really understand is that it has "no impact" on the
> 51% rule. Theresa indicated that the builder still does all of the assembly
> and that is why you don't affect the 51% rule. I'm sure VAn wouldn't offer
> it, if this were not true. Still, I don't really understand how that works
> I guess I just don't really understand the 51% rule.
>
> You still have to build the tanks and some people seem to think this alone
> should qualify you under the 51% rule.
>
> John
>
I'm not sure "no impact" is accurate. But the rule says you gotta build
51% of the airplane, and I remember Van once telling me that what we
get from Van's is about 20% complete under the FAA guidelines. That was
a couple of years ago, with all the improvements it has probably
changed quite a bit but even so you still have a lot of leeway to buy
pre-built stuff without busting 51%. Van's isn't (yet) one of those
kits where the manufacturer has to make an effort to squeak under the
51% rule.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
I have a RV 4 that is almost done. I started it in 1988 also.
There have been several periods where I did not work on it for
2 years each. I hope to get it painted and flying by the
end of this yr. Its all done but the ext. paint and some
fixup work on the fiberglass.
I got interested in aerobatics and bought a Pitts so that has
taken up a lot of my time that should be been spent building.
But I decided (like you suggest) that as we get older you had
better fly while you have your health. Also aerobatic flying
requires a healty body.
My 3 kids kind of slow things down also.
Herman
> Hi everyone!
>
> I`m building an RV-4 just outside Oslo in Norway. Most of my flying has
> been logged in old Cessnas, and all it took to decide for the RV-4 was
> one single flight with a 180 hp powered c/s RV-4. Now that was a real
> responsive aircraft!
>
> Building RV-4 serial 2770 started about a year ago, and I still haven`t
> completed the empennage. (Both elevators and trim tab remains).
> Building an RV obviously takes a lot of time if you want good results.
> Two of my friends started building in 1987 and still haven`t completed
> their projects. I`m sure the results will be excellent.
>
> My goal is to complete my RV-4 before i turn 40 (I`m 34 now...).
> A lot of people spend so many years building, and start their project
> so late that their medical may cause problems when the project is
> complete. Take my humble advice: enjoy building and enjoy flying during
> the building time as well. Even if your flying will be in a old beaten
> Cessna in an aero club...
>
> If you`re relatively young; start building now, the expensive
> components will not be needed in 5-8 years anyway.
>
> By the way, my two months old daughter hinted that completing 2770
> before I turn 40 may be a "tad" optimistic!
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Espen Dahl
> Norway
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Scott Johnson <rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net> |
| Subject: | Riveting Mistake! UnAirworthy ? |
I built an RV6A horizontal stabalizer as my first project and machine
countersunk the rivets. Unfortunately I sunk them to deep and they are about
4 thousands past flush. Is this part safe to fly with ? I understand the
skin will probably work a little around the rivets and cause the paint to
crack but I don't care about that. I noticed that the factory demonstrator
had their rivets sunk a little past flush on the tail and the paint had wore
off where the skin was working on the rivets. I made sure I did not make
the same mistake when I built the vertical stabalizer. Thanks in advance
for your advice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gbroglin(at)glasscity.net (H. Gene Broglin) |
I guess I was not too clear on the fingure type fuel pickup.
I would like information on the removalable type filters.
I understand the pickup has to be modified at the root rib of the fuel tank.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gas caps for RV tanks |
Just signed on, glad to be aboard "rv-list", like to share a thought or two
about a happening to the "Yellowbird", which is my 560 hour RV-6A.
>During a recent Saturday morning pre-flight, before flying to one of our $50
hamburgers
>from the Georgetown, Tx airport....went to check fuel in left tank, THE
LITTLE LIFT TAB FOR THE GAS CAP CAME OFF IN MY HAND.
>This had happened some time ago to another RV-6A pilot (he was away from
home) and came back by way of GRAY DUCT TAPE applied over the gas opening.
>So, this was not a totally unexpected happening. There was an RV-6 builder
who was also going to lunch and lives close by so I walked over to see if'n
I could borry a gas cap.
.(He is now flying a very nice Vari-Ez). We drove a couple of miles to his
shop and he thought it would be easier to fix my cap than try to dig his out.
> so, here is what we did, USING THE SMOOTH PORTION (part which goes in the
drill) of a one sixteenth (1/16) drill bit and tapped out the roll pin which
held the gas tab in place.
> Cleaned it up a bit, tapped the 1/16/ drill bit in place a reassembled!!!
> Went to lunch, good ole Texas greasy hamburger a hundred miles away.
>Came back, pulled the other cap off and performed same surgery.
> This drill pin wasn't broken but it was sure bent.
> CONCLUSION: 1/16 drill bit is stronger than the 1/16 roll pin.
When you take the gas cap apart you can see the drill pin or the 1/16 drill
bit is captured,
>and has no place to go.
>What caused problem? Probably my buddy who was flying my plane
while I was gone for two months. He's a great pilot but I may not have told
him, 'YOU GOT TO LUBRICATE THE "O" RINGS BEFORE YOU REPLACE THE CAP"
>I generally use gasoline, but one could use oil, spit, or catch a puppy dog
doing his thing.
When the O ring is wet the cap closes easily and it has worked since at least
5/91 when I first flew.
....Thanks for the opportunity to share a thought, I'm new to this net, but
an older guy with
over 560 happy hours in the RV-6A. M E Soward N63Tx(at)AOL.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RE: Pictures for FAA (51% rule) |
Used a "designated inspector", who'd been to the house a couple of times
before the inspection, never once looked at three (3) years of photographs
numbering into the hundreds. Will keep for the grandkids.
P.s. He did pass the bird, and I wrote a $200 check.
M E Soward
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
>I guess I was not too clear on the fingure type fuel pickup.
>I would like information on the removalable type filters.
>I understand the pickup has to be modified at the root rib of the fuel tank.
>
What you are thinking of is probably the "tip" that we published in the
Puget Sound RVators. The article described a finger filter screwed into the
lower corner of the root rib. You have to add a doubler (about 1/8" thick)
on the inside of the rib. Drill and tap the rib and doubler for the finger
filter. You should have room to remove the filter without removing the
tank. Of course, you have to screw an adapter fitting into the outside of
the filter for the fuel line to connect to. You will probably have to remove
the adapter before you can screw the filter out of the tank unless you use a
straight adapter and simply remove the filter into the inside of the
fuselage (if the hole is large enough). The fuel filters are available from
Aircraft Spruce.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: DEBURRING, THE HORROR OF IT ALL, Reply |
An easy way to deburr is to get the new hex mounted single hole deburring
tool from Avery. It fits in an electric screwdriver and works like a charm.
It makes a much smoother deburr and won't chatter like the multiple fluted
bits do. Get the Black and Decker battery powered screwdriver with removable
battery. Buy an extra battery and you can run the driver all day long by
trading batteries. The one I have has a clutch that is adjustable so that
you don't twist the heads off of smaller screws.
Jim Cone
Working on Finishing Kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
Text item:
I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6 Wings.
I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
I would be happy to get direct E-Mail on this if you don't wish to publish
your comments for everyone. Thanks.
Steve Bernard runs a pretty clean operation - he runs his business out of
his garage, but lot of small companies would be envious of his set up. The
amount of engineering and drafting time he spent on creating the fast built
kit is pretty incredible. I built both of the wings at the same time, which
helped quite a bit, but I am sure I could have shaved off couple of 100
hours with his kit. If I were doing it again, I am sure I would opt for his
kit. I also built up my own spar and it is my opinion that the extra $800
Phlogiston gets for the spar is not as good of a deal as Steve's kit.
Rich Klee
F-605-610 bulkheads, 6a
Text item:
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)hki064.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Mitchell Gauge vs Vans sender units |
I've got the Van's Ispro fuel gauges and sender units, with
the senders already installed in the tanks. I'm just getting
ready to finish the panel, but I hate looking at the cheap
looking gauges. The Mitchell gauges look alot better, but
I'm not sure if they are compatible with the senders (which
are Stewart-Warner compatible). I read some older mail discussing
the Westach and GM gauge issue, but none on the Mitchell gauges.
Anyone out there have any solid data on it (ie. 30 to 240 ohm range)?
Thanks.
Gary Bataller
RV6A
N615RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Gas caps for RV tanks |
Marvin-
Van's makes a new type cap, w/ a teflon "bushing" behind the o-ring.No lube
necessary. Direct re-placement, but somewhat expensive. I've got one at my
shop if you want it, and order another one from Van's. I did this for my -4.
Rgds,
Mark
918-8582
I'll be at Breakaway working on the Rocket today...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)hki064.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
Hello Espen!
Gee, I was in Norway for a few months this past year (August '94 thru March
'95, on and off). I work for Raytheon Co. and was installing the new
Air Traffic Control Center at the Royken site (near Dramen). I'm just
completing my RV6A in Massachusetts, USA. If I'm back in Norway, I'll give
you a call if you wish. Best wishes.
Gary Bataller
N615RV
RV6A
>
> I`m building an RV-4 just outside Oslo in Norway. Most of my flying has
> been logged in old Cessnas, and all it took to decide for the RV-4 was
> one single flight with a 180 hp powered c/s RV-4. Now that was a real
> responsive aircraft!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Espen Dahl
> Norway
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6A For Sale (Orndorff) |
> [Forwarded on behalf of George Orndorff]
>
> FOR SALE
> RV6A w/ new 0320 CS prop 264 TT
Any idea why they're selling it? How 'bout the status of their second -6?
Just curious,
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
I'm getting serious about buying avionics for my RV-4. Does anyone have
experience with the Apollo 360 GPS? I'm considering using it as my
primary nav. aid. I will have a vor also but I like the idea of the
circular GPS in my panel.
Also, I'm looking for a clock, I want one with TWO digital outputs, one
a clock and one a count down timer. Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Dan Boudro
Albuquerque
RV-4 #3933
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | Barnard wing kit... |
It is fairly common knowledge that the RV kits do not come anywhere near
51% complete from Van. However, I believe that the factory had to prove
this somehow to the FAA to get "approval" in the experimental category.
I may be off base here but this is how I understood things.
What I'm trying to understand is this: Did the FAA "approve" the use of
the BAC wing kit along with an RV kit as still complying with the 51%
rule? Is there any verification of this?
My concern revolves around the vagueries of the 51% rule and the FAA's
tendency to interpret "on the fly" case by case. So, a guy in Oregon
could possibly use the kit without a problem, while a guy in Georgia
could get screwed by the local FSDO.
Does anybody have anything solid on this?
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Mitchell Gauge vs Vans sender units |
>I've got the Van's Ispro fuel gauges and sender units, with
>the senders already installed in the tanks. I'm just getting
>ready to finish the panel, but I hate looking at the cheap
>looking gauges. The Mitchell gauges look alot better, but
>I'm not sure if they are compatible with the senders (which
>are Stewart-Warner compatible). I read some older mail discussing
>the Westach and GM gauge issue, but none on the Mitchell gauges.
>Anyone out there have any solid data on it (ie. 30 to 240 ohm range)?
>
>Thanks.
>
> Gary Bataller
> RV6A
> N615RV
Gary,
.... at Oshkosh, Mrs. Mitchell told me that their small modular
(the ones about 1.5 inches square) are compatible with S/W senders.
Just look in the Spruce catalog and see if the part numbers for the
senders are the same for the modular guages as for the 2.25 inch guages.
My guess is that they are, but a quick look at the catalog should confirm
it.
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... firewall cowl mount hinges
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Mitchell Gauge vs Vans sender units (fwd) |
I think these Ispro gauges are like the SW guages.
If that is the case, you can mount them to look like aircraft style guages.
They have a chrome bezel on the front that has a step in it.
Just mount the instrument in the hole from the rear (instead of from the front)
and then drill the 4 holes similar to the 2 1/4 inch AC instruments.
You have to make the hole in the inst. pannel the proper size so the step in the
guage just fits in the hole.
You need to make a bracket to slide over the rear of the instrument which is
simply something like .040 thicker AL. Cut the proper size hole in it (2 inches
or so) and then cut the outside in a square shape just large enough to have
some material (1/4 inch or so ) left and enough at the corners for the 4 screw
holes.
Just insert 4 black oxide screws and some nuts on the back.
Now you have a mount that looks just like the rest of your 2 1/4 inch instruments.
If you want, you can even paint the chrome bezel a flat black.
I did this on my RV 4 with the Stuart Warner guages. Someone else had the same
idea and this was published in Sport Aviation 'craftsman corner' about a yr ago.
Herman
> From: hki064.ed.ray.com!bataller(at)matronics.com (Gary Bataller)
> Message-Id: <9510031147.AA21348(at)hki064.ED.RAY.COM>
> Subject: RV-List: Mitchell Gauge vs Vans sender units
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:47:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I've got the Van's Ispro fuel gauges and sender units, with
> the senders already installed in the tanks. I'm just getting
> ready to finish the panel, but I hate looking at the cheap
> looking gauges. The Mitchell gauges look alot better, but
> I'm not sure if they are compatible with the senders (which
> are Stewart-Warner compatible). I read some older mail discussing
> the Westach and GM gauge issue, but none on the Mitchell gauges.
> Anyone out there have any solid data on it (ie. 30 to 240 ohm range)?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Gary Bataller
> RV6A
> N615RV
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ(at)maui.net (Russ Werner) |
| Subject: | Re: Barnard wing kit... |
John,
My understanding is that one of the problems with the 51% rule is that it is
not very clear. I have heard that the FAA is accepting, in some cases, the
builder doing 51% of the "procedures" in the construction. This is in
regards to the education thing and the idea is that if you rivit one rivit
you have learned that task. If you make a rib, you don't need to make a
stack of them. Some kit manufacturers are having the builder make one rib
and the factory is making the rest. Everyone I have spoke with has said
that the FAA was not requiring stacks of photos and documentation at
inspection time, though I suppose that there are inspectors who will be a
pain out there though! Their main concern is to make sure the plane is
safe. Best thing I can think of is to get an idea of what your local FAA
might want to see long before you submit for inspection.
Aloha,
Russ
>I got the info. and talked to Theresa about their "deluxe" kit. The one
>thing I still don't really understand is that it has "no impact" on the
>51% rule. Theresa indicated that the builder still does all of the assembly
>and that is why you don't affect the 51% rule. I'm sure VAn wouldn't offer
>it, if this were not true. Still, I don't really understand how that works
>I guess I just don't really understand the 51% rule.
>
>You still have to build the tanks and some people seem to think this alone
>should qualify you under the 51% rule.
>
>John
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV6A For Sale (Orndorff) |
>Re: RV-List: RV6A For Sale (Orndorff)
Hey George, What's your wife going to fly if you sell this one? The new one
looked good in the pictures I saw at Oswego last month.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
> I'm just
>completing my RV6A in Massachusetts, USA. If I'm back in Norway, I'll give
>you a call if you wish. Best wishes.
>
> Gary Bataller
> N615RV
> RV6A
Gary:
Name is Fred Stucklen and am based at 7B6, Skylark Airpark, E. Windsor Ct.
If you need som left seat time prior to flying yours let me know. Can get me
at work at
413-525-6411 or at home at 203-623-1094 (That's if I'm not out flying!.).
Will be on a business trip 10/9/95 - 10/23/95 but you can leave me a message
here or at either number.....
Fred.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
I've also reached the point where I need to consider my wing options. I
talked to Steve Bernard yesterday and he said that Van's has his kits on the
shelf, ready to ship. If this is so, then you can enjoy the fruits of
instant gratification along with the higher cost of the kit, rather than
having to order the standard kit 2-3 months early. I would think that his
kits include the new pre-punched skins, but I would need confirm that first
(I didn't think of this when I talked to Steve) just in case they've been
sitting on the shelf for a while.
Bill Pace
wbpace(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Barnard wing kit... |
Text item:
>My concern revolves around the vagueries of the 51% rule and the FAA's
>tendency to interpret "on the fly" case by case. So, a guy in Oregon
>could possibly use the kit without a problem, while a guy in Georgia
>could get screwed by the local FSDO.
People seem to get Glasairs and Lancairs built for them all the time and they
never seem to have any trouble getting them registered....
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
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Subject: RV-List: Barnard wing kit...
From: John Walsh <ranger.ENET.dec.com!walsh(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 12:28:33 EDT
4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FPKJ52A(at)prodigy.com (MR PAUL W WEBER) |
| Subject: | Landing Light options |
I am at the point of wing construction that I would like to install
landing lights. What has been the experience / pros and cons of the
available landing systems available for the RV6.
Thanks
Paul Weber Minnesota Chapter Van's Air Force
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | FPKJ52A(at)prodigy.com (MR PAUL W WEBER) |
| Subject: | Landing Light options |
I am at the point of wing construction that I would like to install
landing lights. What has been the experience / pros and cons of the
available landing systems available for the RV6.
Thanks
Paul Weber Minnesota Chapter Van's Air Force
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6A For Sale (Orndorff) |
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Dave Hyde wrote:
> > [Forwarded on behalf of George Orndorff]
> >
> > FOR SALE
> > RV6A w/ new 0320 CS prop 264 TT
>
> Any idea why they're selling it? How 'bout the status of their second -6?
> Just curious,
I spoke to Becky Orndorff at OSH this year and she said that their 2nd
RV6A (the one who's construction is documented in the videos) had flown
about a week before. She also mentioned that George was very interested
in the RV-8, so perhaps they are selling their first RV-6A to pay for
the RV-8 kit. (when it becomes available).
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
At Oshkosh I spoke with the guy who built the RV-6 in about 83 days.
He swore by the primer system named Akzo. I bought some without buying
a solution to clean up the spray gun, etc.
I just spoke with Spruce and they said the Akzo mfg sells TL-52 for the
thinner, cleaner. Problem is they only sell it in a gallon and the
price quoted is 38 dollars. Ouch!
Does anyone know what else will do a good job cleaning Akzo? I'm not
interested in thinning it, just cleaning the equipment.
Thanks
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 finishing right elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Riveting Mistake! UnAirworthy ? |
Your safety concerns on the countersunk rivets were one of the many
'boogey mans'I had early on. A local A&P and builder on the field once
commented:"That's why they are called aluminum monocoque construction."
The flimsy skin and skeletal components together form strong structures to
withstand the inflight stressors.
I am interested in hearing others' opinions on this.. my project has yet,
and wouldn't be for some time, to leave the ground so... I'm working on
what little theoretical framework there is in my non-engineering mind. :-)
Thank you...
Remi D. Khu
rkhu(at)earthlink.net
===========================================================
On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Scott Johnson wrote:
> I built an RV6A horizontal stabalizer as my first project and machine
> countersunk the rivets. Unfortunately I sunk them to deep and they are about
> 4 thousands past flush. Is this part safe to fly with ? I understand the
> skin will probably work a little around the rivets and cause the paint to
> crack but I don't care about that. I noticed that the factory demonstrator
> had their rivets sunk a little past flush on the tail and the paint had wore
> off where the skin was working on the rivets. I made sure I did not make
> the same mistake when I built the vertical stabalizer. Thanks in advance
> for your advice.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Fueltank's air vent hole size |
Was told the size as described in the -4 plans (1/4") is inadequate.
Something about it being too small to displace the air while loading
fuel. Any other RV driver with this prolonged fuel loading due to
slow inter-baffle transfer? If so, what are the recommendations on
the fuel vent hole size? The placement is ideal though, apparently
at the apex in the 3-point tailwheel posture.
Remi D. Khu
rkhu(at)earthlink.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Akzo Cleaner |
Bill,
Acetone works just fine for me. Pot life is about 6 to 8 hours, so
you don't have to move as fast as some of the other catalyzed products :^)
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 ... just love that primer.
PS .. It really should be called "Dexter Aerospace" primer since AKZO sold
out their aerospace product line at least a year ago. Aircraft Spruce
didn't update their catalog though, but if you are getting 'new' primer
still labelled AKZO, it's getting towards the end of it's shelf life.
>At Oshkosh I spoke with the guy who built the RV-6 in about 83 days.
>He swore by the primer system named Akzo. I bought some without buying
>a solution to clean up the spray gun, etc.
>I just spoke with Spruce and they said the Akzo mfg sells TL-52 for the
>thinner, cleaner. Problem is they only sell it in a gallon and the
>price quoted is 38 dollars. Ouch!
>Does anyone know what else will do a good job cleaning Akzo? I'm not
>interested in thinning it, just cleaning the equipment.
>Thanks
> Bill Costello
> Chicago
> RV-6 finishing right elevator
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jeayers(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Zoche Engine |
The Zoche engine is advertised as a constant RPM engine; i.e. 2500 RPM.
It goes from 0 RPM (stopped) to 2500 RPM (idle, run, fly, whatever) in one
second. So when you yell clear, it had better be clear before you hit the
starter.
Looked at this two years ago. Was due to be certified and available in 1995.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
How can this be a problem when you have the fuel cap off to fill the
tank? The fuel cap is close to the highest point on the tank (I would hope).
Therefore the vent should not matter. The vent only needs to allow air
into the tank when the cap is on and the engine is sucking fuel.
It may be a slight problem as you get fuel to the top of the tank and are
trying to squeeze in the last gallon.
>
> Was told the size as described in the -4 plans (1/4") is inadequate.
> Something about it being too small to displace the air while loading
> fuel. Any other RV driver with this prolonged fuel loading due to
> slow inter-baffle transfer? If so, what are the recommendations on
> the fuel vent hole size? The placement is ideal though, apparently
> at the apex in the 3-point tailwheel posture.
>
> Remi D. Khu
> rkhu(at)earthlink.net
>
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
Text item:
Is EXPERIMENTAL Aviation dying?
Yea! I guess home built aircraft are just for fools who feel good about
craftsmanship and working with tools. After all, anything you built yourself
couldn't be as good as something you can get someone else to do. After all,
time is money and what else is there. Too bad ya just can't buy new RV's, then
you wouldn't have to assemble anything. And all that time would be saved, so
you could fly and showoff your toy. Don't get me wrong, I don't care how others
(how do you phrase this without insulting people) claim to build their plane.
Guess I'm just one of those who LIKE's to build.
just another RV4
> I am about to order the Wing kit for my RV-6. I was wondering if anyone
> out there has experience with the BAC Fast Build Kit for the RV-6
> Wings.
> I hear the Quality is great, is this true?
> Is the Kit worth the money they charge?
I purchased both the fast build kit as well as Steve's Deluxe Fast Build
Assy option for my RV4 kit. Steve takes delivery of your wing kit, fast build
kit, and phlogiston spars. He then completely assembles the entire
wing skeleton
for you in his hard tooling, drilling all your ribs, spars,control
surface spars,
straightens all your ribs with the flutes in just the right spots
to match the pre-
punched skins, assembles the tank structure, etc. The skeleton is completely
assembled with clecos, the taken back apart and crated up, sent back
to you. He clearly
numbers all the parts so no mix ups occur in reassembly, he provides
extra drawings or
instructions similar to Frank Justice's to clear up any sticky spots
in the plans.
The whole deal is not cheap, 1500 for the fast build kit and 2100
for the assembly
but this can be rationalized in a couple of ways. First, is your time
worth anything? If
so then you've saved yourself a LOT of time. Assuming your jig is
ready, each wing can be
ready to skin in about 8 hours! Second, ALL the hard/scary/tedious
stuff is done for you,
and it's all very accurate. Ask someone who did it, and see how many
times they checked
before drilling the holes to locate the ailerons to the rear spar.
It just takes all the
guesswork out of it and lets you assemble rather than fabricate parts,
then measure, then
assemble.
It's obviously not for everyone. Heck, for 3600 bucks, thats most
of a constant
speed prop, or a radio/GPS/insruments, blah blah blah. It boils down
to, if you have the money
,don't be a chump, save yourself the time. The object IS after all,
to FLY right? So anything
that gets you to that point quicker is reasonably justified. If the
money isn't there, so what,
there are over a thousand folks who did it the old/hard/different
way (how do you phrase this
without insulting people) and their planes turned out just fine. Heck,
some people LIKE to build
so it's totally a personal decision as to what makes sense for you.
The old saying about
"time is money" is really applicable here. If you want to spend less
time building, it costs money
and vice versa. For the really rich/busy/mechanically challenged,
spend 15-20k and have someone build
it for you, though it looks like the "hired gun" days are numbered,
if not gone all together. The
Friendly Aviator Assoc. has apparently said "If the plans say to build
30 ribs, you're expected to
build 30 ribs."
Anyway, I'm very happy with the purchase, and would do it again.
Is it "worth" it, gotta
answer that one yourself.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4 N4MF
Phoenix, Az.
Text item: External Message Header
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2, 95 09:49:47 am
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:11:41 +22305823 (MST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: RV-List: BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings
From: Mike Fredette -FT-~ <sedona.intel.com!mfredett(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
Radio Shack, I put a Darlington pair amplifier on the buzzer output inside
the case of the timer which flashes an LED on the panel at countdown. Used
aircraft power to drive the LED.
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Mitchell Gauge vs Vans sender units |
ISPRO GUAGES
I masked the glass, scuffed the metal with scotchbrite, cleaned with MEK, and
sprayed them with flat black. Mounted them to a thin plate which allowed
rear insertion into the instrument panel.. The mounting panel uses the same
hole pattern as the other instruments, such as Rochester, etc. They look
quite good!
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
Hi:
I have an V-6A that's been flying now for two years with almost 600Hrs in
that time. I've always had to tell line personell to fill the tanks slowly
towards the end of the process as the venting along the tops of the tanks is
too slow. If I were to build the tankks again, I would definately enlarge the
air vents at the tops of the ribs to somewhere around 1/2 inch diameter.
The other beef I have, although minor, was the placement of the RV-6A gas
cap verus the placement on the RV-6. My plans (RV-6A) showed the placement as
it is now found on the RV-6. I asked Bill bennet and Van at the time if this
placement was correct and was assured that it was. Later, while at Sun 'N
Fun, I found that the gas caps on Van's RV-6A were placed further back than
those on the RV-6.
The end result is that I loose a bit of fuel capacity. Nothing serious,
probably just a cup or two at most.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
>
>Radio Shack, I put a Darlington pair amplifier on the buzzer output inside
>the case of the timer which flashes an LED on the panel at countdown. Used
>aircraft power to drive the LED.
>Jim Stugart
>Austin, TX
>
>
Couldn't help to wonder what the original queation was. I'm a newcommer
flying and RV-6A full IFR and nned a solution for an appoarch timer time out
warning. Seems like that is what you're talking about, Could you send me more
details?
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (That's Nine To Five RV!!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Landing Light options -Reply |
I used Duckworks lights and I am happy with
the simplicity and the price. Bulbs should
be low cost also.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size -Reply |
I have heard the same thing. I think the
problem is with the size of the holes
between bays. Some of the pumps at the big
airports can really pump out the volume.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light options |
> I am at the point of wing construction that I would like to install
> landing lights. What has been the experience / pros and cons of the
> available landing systems available for the RV6.
If Don Wentz won't speak up on his own behalf, I will. The Duckworks
landing light (which I ordered from Van's not Don direct, sorry) is simple,
cheap, and easy to install. It also looks better than any of the others I
looked at.
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Remi D. Khu" <rkhu(at)earthlink.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
Okay Folks... how about a break huh?? From the sound of this reply I
received, it's not just fuel tanks that are in need of filling up!!
** On Tue, 3 Oct 1995 austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com wrote:
> How can this be a problem when you have the fuel cap off to fill the
> tank?
- Uhhhh... good question, let's try to explain that!! :-)
-----------------------------
The Anatomy of Fueling a tank
-----------------------------
Imagine, if you will -- an airtight container sectioned into 3
compartments, I'll call them: left (lt), center (c), and right (rt).
These compartments are separated by baffles... each having one large hole
for fluids transfer. The inlet (gas cap) is over the TOP of the rt
compartment.
As fuel is being loaded into this tank, it will try to fill all three
compartments evenly via the huge hole in the baffles.
But the inter-baffle transfer rate is slower than the pumped filling rate,
the (RT) compartment fills faster and *covers* the baffle transfer hole as
it fills the aft compartments.
At this stage, the aft compartments have trouble filling up due to
their inability to displace the now "throttled" baffle hole.
The net result is the appearance of a filled tank by an inexperienced fuel
handler and the shortfall may exceed the built-in 45 min. reserve for the
unknowing flyer. A potential for an off-site landing or worse!!
Therefore, vent holes whose placements are at the apex - highest point
inside the tank *WALL* -- are meant to allow for equalization of those
effected compartments.
---------------------------------
Question 1: What good is having a fuel cap off?
In a baffle-less tank, that would be great! It isn't so practical to
have an aircraft with two uncompartmentalized wing tanks.
----------------------------------
** He further comments with the following:
> It may be a slight problem as you get fuel to the top of the tank and are
> trying to squeeze in the last gallon.
-----------------------------------
*gasp* That's what I get for assuming..... *sigh*
Again:
1. How large should the baffle vent holes be? (1/4" is the plan's)
2. Anyone (those who have *filled* up an RV fuel tank) with similar
experiences and would like to offer their 'fixes'?
I've had to wait for the fuel to settle before continuing and/or shake the
wing in order to help displace the trapped air from the aft compartments.
Thanks folks -- watch yourselves up there in the pattern!!
Remi D. Khu
rkhu(at)earthlink.net
=========THE==================================================
====================ENTRAILS==================================
> Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
Hmmm.. impressive! Sounds like management to me!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Barnard wing kit... |
Frank Justice wrote:
>
> People seem to get Glasairs and Lancairs built for them all the time and they
> never seem to have any trouble getting them registered....
>
There would be no problem getting them registered with the builder listed as
the builder. The only problem would come if the builder builds more than
a few airplanes and the FAA decides he is no longer an "amateur". The
airplane then could not be registered as "amateur built experimental".
Of course, if you lie on the application for an airworthiness certificate,
You can get the FAA to issue a C of A under false pretenses. You could
list yourself as the "builder", even if a shop built it. I believe that
this is what's happening in a lot of these cases. The FAA is wise to this
and are looking for ways to enforce the current 51% rule.
The folks having airplanes built by shops are subject to not being
able to get a C of A if the FAA finds out. And they must perjure
themselves by lying on a Federal form. And they never get the joy
of building an airplane themselves.
The 51% rule is enforced very liberally today. If you affirm that you
built the airplane, the FAA is obligated to believe you. (Innocent
unless proven guilty applies.) I hardly believe that the Barnard
deluxe wing kit, firewall kit, a tank assembly by someone else and
the Phlogiston spar will be questioned at all.
At a recent EAA meeting, the local FAA Inspectors came in and addressed
this topic. They said that their primary concern was airworthiness,
not determining who built the airplane. They addresses the above
situations and even buying a partially completed kit. Basically, if
the owner is willing to put his ass in the airplane and fly it, this
goes a long way with the inspectors after the obvious safety of
construction issues are met. And they encouraged the group to get
help with _anything_ they weren't absolutely sure wbout.
Let's just hope that these shops professionally building these
airplanes and the people who use them don't cause additional
regulation on homebuilders.
Mickey Baker
mbaker(at)gate.net RV6A Plans #23400, but little else done.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Duckworks INFO request |
| From: | "Sam Ray" <str(at)almaden.ibm.com> |
Don Wentz,
Please send info on your light kit to
Sam Ray
15264 Bryson Court
Morgan Hill, CA 95037
Thanxs
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Landing Light options |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> If Don Wentz won't speak up on his own behalf, I will.
Ditto! Of all the optional equipment that can be installed on an
RV, the Duckworks lights have to be one of the simplest, least
time consuming installations around.
Cal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
>So if I read this right, my $10 gets me '95 and '96 newsletters? If so, $
>is in the mail!
>Aloha, Russ
You are right!
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size (fwd) |
Excuse my comments on this. I thought from your subject title you were
proposing increasing the size of the vent line the vents outside the tank.
I am well aware of the ribs in the tank. I just thought the holes in
them were large enough. However, I can see that the small holes in the top
of the ribs may be too small and could slow the filling process.
I had actually used a different set of ribs that I got from Sid Golden.
These were hydroformed ribs and very nice quality (compared to the rubs
Van supplied back in 1988). The ribs I used may have had larger holes.
Herman
>
> How can this be a problem when you have the fuel cap off to fill the
> tank? The fuel cap is close to the highest point on the tank (I would hope).
> Therefore the vent should not matter. The vent only needs to allow air
> into the tank when the cap is on and the engine is sucking fuel.
>
> It may be a slight problem as you get fuel to the top of the tank and are
> trying to squeeze in the last gallon.
>
> >
> > Was told the size as described in the -4 plans (1/4") is inadequate.
> > Something about it being too small to displace the air while loading
> > fuel. Any other RV driver with this prolonged fuel loading due to
> > slow inter-baffle transfer? If so, what are the recommendations on
> > the fuel vent hole size? The placement is ideal though, apparently
> > at the apex in the 3-point tailwheel posture.
> >
> > Remi D. Khu
> > rkhu(at)earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
> Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Jim
My address is 422 Savannah Ridge Drive, St. Charles, MO 63303. The donation
for a year subscription is $5.00 for four issues. If you want the back
issues for 1995, I still have those. Otherwise I can start you off for 1996.
The 1995 issues were very good and are not out of date, because they contain
more tips, etc. than anything else.
Thanks,
Jim Cone
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
>Was told the size as described in the -4 plans (1/4") is inadequate.
>Something about it being too small to displace the air while loading
>fuel.
Remi
If I was building my -6 over again I would make the vent holes at the apex at
least .5 to .75" my tanks take a long time to fill the last few gallons.
Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
It's good to be back on the list after a three year hiatus. I was on the first
rv-list. I'm building an RV-6A and am progressing very slowly (wife in med
school, toddler to take care of, and moving to Arizona). Tail is done except
for the balancing and tips. Right wing is done and left spar is ready to be
rivetted. I don't even have a fuse kit yet, but maybe with all the
advancements in the kit, that's not so bad.
I can talk a little about the FAA cracking down on Profesional shops because I
just quit working for one. I was building Glasairs and EDI Express for about a
year. (I even got to fly the second Turbine Glasair III currently flying in
the country - What a ride!!). While the feds can't legally shut them down,
they can make it very difficult for the actual owners of the aircraft (no
repairman's certificate, etc). Our local FAA inspector luckily was of the
opinion that professionally built homebuilts were ok because they were
probably better and safer than if the owner had built it themselves. The
writing was starting to be seen on the wall though. The feds were starting to
drop in more on pro shops to see how much work the owner was actually doing.
The customers don't necessarily like this because they still wanted to be able
to do their own annuals, etc. As been said here before, they can see who was
shown as the builder on the application for registration and if they know this
was not true, this would become falsifying a federal form.
I quit because I was burning out on building and wanted to enjoy it rather
than it just being my job. Plus that fiberglass stuff is so messy. : )
They called me the Tinman around the shop because even up until the end, I was
still a bigger supporter of RVs, than of Glasairs.
Chris Krieg
RV-6A
Anyone on here from the PHX area that would take me up in their RV??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Count down timer |
>>
>>Radio Shack, I put a Darlington pair amplifier on the buzzer output inside
>>the case of the timer which flashes an LED on the panel at countdown. Used
>>aircraft power to drive the LED.
>>Jim Stugart
>>Austin, TX
>>
>>
>
> Couldn't help to wonder what the original queation was. I'm a newcommer
>flying and RV-6A full IFR and nned a solution for an appoarch timer time out
>warning. Seems like that is what you're talking about, Could you send me
more
>details?
>
>Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (That's Nine To Five RV!!!)
>
>
>
>---
You asked about an approach timer. I have one I purchased from Radio Shack
which has a clock and two timers, one counts up, the other counts down from
your preset number, then gives beeps audibly for quite a while. The LCD
display is 1.9 inches wide and .8 inches high. Case dimension is 3" wide x
2.5" high x .6" thick. It uses a (maybe 2) watch batteries. Catalog number
63-884, cost less than $20.
I modified it as above to run a red LED on my instrument panel instead of the
beeper. Its very handy for knowing when to switch fuel tanks. It remembers
your countdown number when acknowledge the countdown and re-start. Sportys
sells the same thing but for a much higher price
Jim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | wayne(at)wilmington.net (wayne bailey) |
>>So if I read this right, my $10 gets me '95 and '96 newsletters? If so, $
is in the mail!
>>Aloha, Russ
->You are right! ->Jim
I must have gotten in between the lines somewhere. What is the address and
how much do
I send to get on the newsletter mailing list? Thanks, Wayne.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
Sorry 'bout this, folks.
Jim Cone, could you send your E-mail address to nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu?
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Duck Works light kits |
I think Don said a few weeks back that he may not be on the list for
a while as he was to busy at work.
Here is a note from Don that contains info on his landing light kit(s).
This not is almost a yr old so the prices may have changed a little.
As he notes below, you can order these directly from Van's aircraft as
Van's resells Don's kits. Don will also sell them direct.
You can put a landing Lt. in one wing and a taxi Lt. in the other wing if
you like. You can also order a version that allows two lights behind
one lense (this one stacks two of the halogen lamps on top of each other
and one can be set for taxi and one for landing).
Herman
> From root Tue Nov 15 10:41:38 1994
> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 94 22:10:03 PST
> From: Don Wentz <ccm2.hf.intel.com!Don_Wentz(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id: <941114221003_2(at)ccm.hf.intel.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com, animas.tcinc.com!sjames(at)matronics.com
> Subject: recommendation on Landing Lights
>
> Gee, I was hoping that I could answer this one. Thanks for the kind
> words Earl.
>
> My landing light kits (Duckworks Exp. Aircraft Parts) use very
> inexpensive automotive driving light components. They come complete
> with mount, formed plexi lense, lights, and all necessary hdwr.
> Installation takes about 6 hrs, using templates to eliminate lots of
> measuring. Installed weight is appx 16 oz.
>
> They use a replaceable $7 halogen bulb of 55 or 100 watts. So far I
> have 133 hours on the 2 in my -6, with them on about 50% of the time,
> with no burn-outs.
>
> These are the same kits in Van's catalog. You can see one on the
> RV-6T and RV-6B demonstrators, and on Lyle Hefel's & Les Williams
> Oshkosh award winning RV-6s.
>
> We have flown them into Vernonia Airport at night, which is an
> unlighted, grass strip with hills/forests all around, so I know they
> put-out adequate light!
>
> I give a discount if you order 2 kits (Van's doesn't - don't read that
> Tom!). Price for one is $69.95 from Van's. If you buy one kit for
> each wing, discount is down to $130 for 2, + $6 shipping.
>
> If you want a photo and price/info sheet, give me your address. If
> you MUST use your own lamps, my kit can be easily adapted to other
> lamps, and I will sell the mount/lense, etc. (all the stuff that is a
> real PAIN to design and build) minus the lights that I supply.
> don wentz
>
>
> >Has anyone considered using automotive halogen head-lamps? Seems
> >like an inexpensive alternative. One could install two or more bulbs
> >for redunancy and extra brightness. Even use the low and high beams
> >in the bulbs for landing / taxiing. You could use the head lamp
> >assembly from a scrapped car ( a newer make using these lamps )
>
> >Ideas anyone? Pros/Cons?
>
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any comments on what vendor to use for
> >> landing/taxi lights? I see Van's now has these in his
> >> parts catalog. I know several other vendors have advertised
> >> these in the past. I am mainly interested in the quality
> >> of the parts, workmanship, ease of installation, etc.
> >> If any one has used them at night that would help also.
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Herman Dierks, Dept. D29, AWSD Austin, Texas
> >> AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
> >> phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
> >> ZIP: 9632 fax: 512-838-1801
> >> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VNET: DIERKS at AUSVM6
> >>
> >>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Fuselage Improvements |
There is a lot of improvements and quick build options for the
wings. Especially the prepunched skins, flaps and ailerons and the BAC
kits. But is there anything out there for the fuselage kit. Will Vans
do prepunched skins for the fuselage, or is that not pratical.
I am enjoying building the wings, but do not look forward to the
fuslelage. I felt that the fuslelage would be the longest and hardest
part of the project, someone told me it would be easier than the wings!
Any comments. Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | firewall insulation |
Does anyone have a suggestion for insulating the firewall and front
floor for sound? I'm looking for a good product for this purpose.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933
Albuquerque
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif623.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
Hi Fred:
Thanks for the offer. I will certainly take you up on your offer. What kind
of RV do you have (3,4,6,6A)? Mine is a 6A with a wood prop (Warnke) and a
O320E2A (150hp). I hope to start it up for the first time sometime in November.
Probably taxi/flight test it in December. Thanks again.
Gary B
> Gary:
> Name is Fred Stucklen and am based at 7B6, Skylark Airpark, E. Windsor Ct.
> If you need som left seat time prior to flying yours let me know.......
> Fred.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bataller(at)tif312.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller) |
| Subject: | Mitchell Fuel gauge summary |
Thanks for the info on the Mitchell fuel gauge questions I had
(Herman/Gil in particular). I called Aircraft Spruce, but they
didn't help, but they did give me the phone number of Mitchell
Instruments. They were VERY helpful. So here's the summary:
The Isopro (Van's) senders (actually Stewart Warner read:
Full: 30 ohms
Empty: 240 ohms
The Mitchell fuel gauge comes in two flavors:
Part # D1-211-5074
Full: 240 ohms
Empty: 30 ohms
Part # D1-211-5078
Full: 30 ohms
Empty: 240 ohms
So, I called Spruce and gave them the Mitchell part number. They
translated it into the Spruce part number, but it is not in the
catalog. They in turn ordered it from Mitchell and will have it
sent to me (Mitchell will not sell direct to the public). The
quality of the Mitchell gauge over the Ispro has to be seen to
be appreciated it. So, D1-211-5078 is the one I ordered.
As a side note, I remeasured the sender resistance in both tank
sender units. The left tank is pretty much right on, but the
right tank showed a high resistance (about 30 K Ohms). But
after I left the battery connected to it for a minute, it crept
up to the expected readings. I built these tanks about 2 years
ago. Do the fumes from the slosh corrode these things? I'm
hoping that putting gasoline in the tanks will straighten this
out. Anyone out there experience this?
Gary B
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com (MR SCOTT R GESELE) |
| Subject: | rv-list fuselage improvements |
I am currently working on the finishing kit of an RV-6A. IMO the
fuselage kit was easier and faster to build than the wings. I logged
approx 900 hours on both wings and 700 hours on the fuselage. That
700 hrs is fuse kit only and does not include the finishing kit.
With the wings, you are working in a tight area, while the fuse is
wide open (especially for the bucker). The wings included the tanks,
with that god-awfull Pro-Seal. I included the flap and aileron
constuction with the wings, so that add time and complexity.
After the fuse came out of the jig and the seats were in, I could
finally sit in the darn thing and make airplane noises (after 2 1/2
years of construction so far)!!
Keep building and don't dread the fuselage, just look at it as
another stepping stone to owning on heck of an airplane.
Scott
Gesele
RV-6A
(N506RV - Reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Improvements |
I am building an RV-4 and fuse appears to be much easier; maybe I'm
getting better at building? :-) Of course, I'm not at the canopy
fitting stage, yet. I've been told that the canopy is the worst part.
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: Fuselage Improvements
Date: 10/5/95 1:51 PM
There is a lot of improvements and quick build options for the
wings. Especially the prepunched skins, flaps and ailerons and the BAC
kits. But is there anything out there for the fuselage kit. Will Vans
do prepunched skins for the fuselage, or is that not pratical.
I am enjoying building the wings, but do not look forward to the
fuslelage. I felt that the fuslelage would be the longest and hardest
part of the project, someone told me it would be easier than the wings!
Any comments. Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: firewall insulation |
Aircraft Spruce has a good material for insulating the firewall. If you
have to cut pieces to fit, use duct tape to seal the pieces.
A good item for soundproofing the floor can be found at camping and
outdoor stores. They sell a mat that is about 3/8" thick foam that is
intended to be used under your sleeping bag. Just cut this to fit the floor
and glue in place with spray adhesive if the floor does not need to be
removed, or attach to the back of your carpet pieces with spray adhesive if
the floor does need to be removed.
We have used both products in our RV-6As and are very happy with the
insulating and soundproofing qualities.
George & Becki Orndorff
>Does anyone have a suggestion for insulating the firewall and front
>floor for sound? I'm looking for a good product for this purpose.
>
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 #3933
>Albuquerque
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | BAC wing kit actual time saved?? |
How long did it take you to build your wings with the kit?
How long did it take others to build doing it themselves?
I wonder if we have enough data here on the list to quantify the time
savings of the kit.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: firewall insulation reply |
J.C. Whitney has some layered foam that is mylar backed heat and sound
insulation. Get the 1/2" thick kind as it is fairly heavy in the 1" kind.
The part number is 15VB8488B. That is 12 sq. ft. (32" X 54") and costs
$39.99.
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Improvements |
The fuselage is the most fun! It goes together quickly and compared
to the wings is much easier, the skins are large so much progress is
made in a short time. Enjoy it!
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933 fuselage off jig soon
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Robert Busick wrote:
>
> There is a lot of improvements and quick build options for the
> wings. Especially the prepunched skins, flaps and ailerons and the BAC
> kits. But is there anything out there for the fuselage kit. Will Vans
> do prepunched skins for the fuselage, or is that not pratical.
>
> I am enjoying building the wings, but do not look forward to the
> fuslelage. I felt that the fuslelage would be the longest and hardest
> part of the project, someone told me it would be easier than the wings!
> Any comments. Thanks
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Improvements reply |
The fuselage is a piece of cake to build. It is easier to build than the
wings IMHO. Try to find someone who has a jig that you can use for a couple
of months. That will speed the process a bit.
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Improvements |
What was nice about the wings is that everything is symetrical so it
is easy to allign all the ribs, etc. With the wings, you have two of
everything to do.
I found the fuselage more difficult to build.
On the fuselage, there is a lot of asymetry. For example, each of the
bulkheads are a different shape. On the 4, there is lots of room to
make errors, for example in alligning the rear spar carrythrough properly.
The plans were not very good in this area at one time. I think they
have been clarified now. Lots of builders had trouble with the bottom
skin around the baggage area. Again, some of this is due to slight
variations in demensions that cause problems later. I think it is
harder to ensure all these components are alligned properly.
The good news on the fuselage is that there is only one to build.
Parts of the fuselage are easy, for example the floor ribs and baggage ribs
and the side skins.
> I am enjoying building the wings, but do not look forward to the
> fuslelage. I felt that the fuslelage would be the longest and hardest
> part of the project, someone told me it would be easier than the wings!
> Any comments. Thanks
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: fuselage improvements |
I'm sure glad I LIKE building my airplane. I guess I must be one of
those purists. It's nice to have all the parts that Van makes for you,
but why go out and buy all this extra pre-made stuff? Might as well
just buy a finished plane. Me, I'd rather spend the money on tools!
Sure I'm aching to get finished and fly the thing, but at least in the
meantime I can be in my garage working on it, which is almost as much
fun! And when I do fly it, I'll know _I_ built it!
(And Jerry S. don't you say anything -- I know all about back in the
EARLY days, when you had to forge your own tools and smelt the aluminum
yourself..... :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (just started on the fuselage -- yay!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
I reccomend 7/8" holes ( for air bleed)-- that's the largest size my unibit
will drill. I can put 21 gal. each side in as fast as that big nozzle will
flow!
Rgds,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: More Talk About Landing Lights... |
RV-list,
In response to the talk about landing lights, the only corrections to
Herman's re-post about them are:
I no longer offer the 'dual' (2 lights in one mount) kit,
and instead of 133 hrs, I have 230 hours on them without a burnout (again,
>50% on-time).
If you have questions, mail me at:
don_wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com
Regards,
Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: BAC wing kit actual time saved?? |
I.M.H.O. the wings are a lot easier to build than the fuselage. I
had a 1989 wing kit with out any of the predrilled parts (only the
spar). (Fuselage kit was delivered at the same time.) I also built
my own spar. Fuel tanks are a piece of cake if you have the right
tools. (pneumatic pro-seal gun and cartridges)
The wings took 600 hours to build including spar and tank. The
fuselage took 740 hours including sliding canopy but not the cowl.
Engine baffle are also a pain. I.M.H.O. the engine baffle kit is not
worth the money. I can purchase the material and make the parts for
less money and have a better product.
Time is money. What is your time worth? Is the cost worth the
savings in time?
If person A builds an airframe in 1000 hours and person B takes 1500
hours to finish it, who is the legal builder under the 51% rule? This
is the argument put forth by most "HIRED GUN" builders. I built it
ALL myself and do not care if everyone else buys their airframe as
long as it does not create additional regulations for me when I build
another one.
Gary A. Sobek RV-6 20480 N-157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: BAC wing kit actual time saved??
Date: 10/5/95 3:11 PM
How long did it take you to build your wings with the kit?
How long did it take others to build doing it themselves?
I wonder if we have enough data here on the list to quantify the time
savings of the kit.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | BAC Fast Build Kit for RV-6 Wings |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BA9354.DE867680
>I've also reached the point where I need to consider my wing =
options. I
>talked to Steve Bernard yesterday and he said that Van's has his kits =
on >the shelf, ready to ship. =20
I have a wing kit on order from Van including pre-punched skins and the =
BAC fast build kit, and have had since 8/3/95. Van may have Steve's =
components on the shelf ready to ship, but there is still a waiting =
period of at least a couple of months.
Regards, BFG (waiting for wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BAC wing kit actual time saved?? |
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, John Walsh wrote:
> How long did it take you to build your wings with the kit?
> How long did it take others to build doing it themselves?
>
> I wonder if we have enough data here on the list to quantify the time
> savings of the kit.
In about three months I plan to have some data on this subject (That's
when my wings will be finished). I did not buy the BAC fast-build wing
kit, but I do have an itemized list, given to me by Steve Bernard, of
everything in the kit. Using the very detailed logs I have been keeping,
I'll be able to get a very good idea of the amount of time one can save
by using the BAC fast-build kit. Quite frankly, I suspect I'm going to
find that the amount of time saved by the BAC fast-build kit is not as
much as you would expect.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
working on the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: fuselage improvements (chatter) |
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Randall Henderson wrote:
>
> I'm sure glad I LIKE building my airplane. I guess I must be one of
> those purists. It's nice to have all the parts that Van makes for you,
> but why go out and buy all this extra pre-made stuff? Might as well
> just buy a finished plane. Me, I'd rather spend the money on tools!
My sentiments exactly. When I started this project, I knew that the
building would not be a problem because over the years I have enjoyed
working on airplanes just as much as flying them.
I'm building in my garage, so I'm at home with my family. They like
that, and and it helps me feel like I am not neglecting them. After a
hard day at work, going home and bashing a few rivets is great therapy.
Just like Randall, I'm really looking forward to the day when I can FLY
my airplane, but for now, I'm doing something that I've dreamed about
(BUILDING an airplane) for 20 years. I'm having a heck of a good time.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
working on the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Count down timer |
Jim:
Thanks for the input. Sounds like a neat idea for an auto reminder to
switch tanks....
FRED
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com (MR SCOTT R GESELE) |
| Subject: | MAC Electric Trim |
I am considering putting both aileron and elevator electric trim in
my RV-6A. The airplane will be parked outside. Does anyone have any
info on the reliability of the MAC units? One of my major concerns
is the servos being exposed to the elements outside ( Long Island-
Winters- Rain). Granted, they are in the control surfaces, but the
aileron and elevators are not waterproof. I already have both manual
trims ( not installed yet), but the new MAC grips with the trims
right on the stick seem too good to pass up. The manual trims appear
so fool proof and reliable. I am trying to avoid future maintenance
nightmares ( such as a servo going bad the day I leave for Oshkosh !).
Are my fears justified? Also, how hard is it to install the
servos in finished control surfaces?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette -FT-~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BAC wing kit actual time saved?? |
I've thoughabout this whole time saved aspect a bit and finally
called and talked to Steve Bernard and got his five cents worth. We talked about
how much time does the "average' builder take and you can guess how silly
that got. But let's take an example, that of Jerry Scott, the loony who
builds award winning RV's in 85 days or something. Jerry has now completed
10, that's TEN! airframes. 6 completed aircraft for himself and 4 airframes
for other people. As you can imagine, he now knows EXACTLY what he's going to
do at each step, wasting NO time on anything. He has every tool, jig, etc
ready. He also has EVERY instrument, radio, switch, circuit breaker, engine
assessory, prop, paint, goody, upholstery, etc. No waiting for anything to
show up from Aircraft Spruce or whoever.
So, we have someone who knows what he needs, has it all on hand, and
who knows exactly how to proceed and therefore doesn't waste ANY time during the
build. Now, he starts work at 6:00am and doesn't quit until midnight every day.
So at 18 hours a day, for 85 days, that's STILL 1530 hours! That's why it takes
the rest of us 2000+ hours/many years to crank an airplane out. We have the
whole learing curve thing to overcome, puzzle over plans interpretation, scounging
of tools, parts, instruments. A HUGE difference. But time savings can take on many
aspects, making small jigs for repetetive tasks, ordering parts ahead of time
when you can. So are the BAC kits worth the time savings? For some, yes. For those
on a budget, ie. most of us, maybe not. Many, as have stated themselves, LIKE to
build, and get a huge amount of enjoyment from the building process itself.And
thats
great........ for them. I don't poke fun at that, more power to em, but on the
other hand, I want to fly ASAP, and so can "justify" the money, though I'm sure
my wife
would question that "justified" aspect. So it all comes back to the "personal decision"
thing again, and there as many opinions on this as there are people to express
them.
I would hope that those who choose to build it all themselves would allow us who
choose
different paths the same courtesy.
How much time is saved? Well, I took delivery of my kits in mid July, and
promptly
moved to Phoenix from Portland in Aug. We're finally all settled in, most all the
honey
do projects are complete, so I'm now building my jigs again. Should be finished
this
next week. By the way, for those who built both wings at once, how far apart did
you find
the jigs needed to be for adequate working room? 3 ft, 4ft? I'll keep a careful
log of
time spent and compare for those who give a darn about these things.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4 N4MF (reserved N#)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | oil lines for O320-D1A |
>From the overhaul manual I believe the correct position on the accessory
cover to connect the line to the oil cooler is just below the breather
outlet and to the left, it is almost horizontal. Can any one confirm
this? Does anyone have the part #/supplier of the fitting I need to
make this connection? (from pipe thread to AN), the opening is really
in a tight spot. Also it appears the return line is just left of this
facing rearwards and vertical, I'm assuming the 1/8" set screw is for
a pressure sensor?
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Fuselage Improvements |
I built my wings in about six months. I was out of the fuselage jig in three
months with about another three months to finish the fuselage. The Fuselage
was the most fun to build. However, finishing the aircraft is the longest
and most fustrating part of building the aircraft. I would say that when you
get the fuselage finished you will will be about 60 to 70% done (depending on
the equipment installed).
---------------------
From: nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com (Robert Busick)
Date: 95-10-05 14:02:27 EDT
There is a lot of improvements and quick build options for the
wings. Especially the prepunched skins, flaps and ailerons and the BAC
kits. But is there anything out there for the fuselage kit. Will Vans
do prepunched skins for the fuselage, or is that not pratical.
I am enjoying building the wings, but do not look forward to the
fuslelage. I felt that the fuslelage would be the longest and hardest
part of the project, someone told me it would be easier than the wings!
Any comments. Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Marc LeFevre <marcl(at)hpbs2412.boi.hp.com> |
I subscribed about a month ago and have enjoyed the discussions so
far. This is a very useful way for prospective builders to gain
knowledge with which to make decisions. I'm trying to decide
which RV I want to build.
Has anyone speculated on when Van will be selling RV-8 kits? I
assume that he isn't taking orders, yet.
Marc (decided against a Europa in favor of an RV) LeFevre
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Pneumatic Proseal Guns. |
In response to where can I get one...
I got mine at one of the local aerospace surplus stores in the L.A.
area. I have seen them for sell at Oshkosh, U.S. Industrial tools and
Aircraft Spruce. The one I have is made by (I think) Semco.
Proseal can be purchase from several places that have been listed here
in the past. If you know someone who works for an airframe
manufacturer, they may be able to get free proseal that is at or near
end of shelf life. It comes in a premeasured 6 1/2 oz tube that has
both parts pre measured. To mix, a dash rod is pushed to release the
activator. A removable mixing handle is push in and out and rotated
to mix the proseal. (I am using proseal as a generic term here.) This
takes about 3 minutes. Once mixed, the mixing handle/rod is removed
and disposed. The disposable cartridge is place into the gun and a
disposable nozzle is screwed into the end. The gun is plugged into
the air hose and triggered squeezed to release a 1/16" bead of
proseal. Very neat and no mess. If you do not wish to purchase the
premeasured tubes of proseal. Disposable cartridges are available for
about $2.50 from U.S. Industrial tool. These can be loaded with
mixed proseal that is purchased from Van.
Gary RV-6 20480 N-157GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Proseal Guns. |
> I got mine at one of the local aerospace surplus stores in the L.A.
> area. I have seen them for sell at Oshkosh, U.S. Industrial tools and
> Aircraft Spruce. The one I have is made by (I think) Semco.
How much do the actual guns usually run?
-Thanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
>I am considering putting both aileron and elevator electric trim in
>my RV-6A. The airplane will be parked outside. Does anyone have any
>info on the reliability of the MAC units? One of my major concerns
>is the servos being exposed to the elements outside ( Long Island-
>Winters- Rain). Granted, they are in the control surfaces, but the
>aileron and elevators are not waterproof. I already have both manual
>trims ( not installed yet), but the new MAC grips with the trims
>right on the stick seem too good to pass up. The manual trims appear
>so fool proof and reliable. I am trying to avoid future maintenance
>nightmares ( such as a servo going bad the day I leave for Oshkosh !).
> Are my fears justified? Also, how hard is it to install the
>servos in finished control surfaces?
>
I have the MAC trim for the elevator and Van's manual trim for the ailerons.
I think both would be ok for minimal outside exposure but as far as
permanently parking the RV outside?? I think that is not a good idea. If
you have primered the complete interior and waterproofed the fuselage then
maybe but my personal feeling is that after spending 2 to 4 years building
your RV (and probably spending over $30,000) that you should put the RV in
some kind of shelter. If an enclosed hangar isn't in your budget or plans
then maybe an open Tee hangar may be available.
In the Seattle/Puget Sound area I can't think of anyone of our 40+ RV's that
are tied out in the weather. In fact, I can only think of one RV that is in
an open hangar. Contrary to what we want people to believe, we really don't
have _that_ much rain.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mkerzie(at)qnet.com (Mark G. Kerzie) |
| Subject: | Installing the Tailwheel Spring on the RV-6 |
Just joined up last week. I'm already enjoying your comments and ideas.
I am helping my dad with a -6. He's been going at it for a couple of years
now. The tail and wings are complete and safely stored away; the fuselage
structure is basically complete minus the installation of the J-stringers
back at the tail. The skins are next.
Here are my questions:
We've been putting off drilling the bolt hole through the WD-602 sleeve and
U-602 tail spring. We've talked about drilling a pilot hole through the
sleeve and spring, pulling the spring out of the sleeve, and doing the
full-size hole with a drill press. We'd probably go ahead and finish off
the sleeve with the drill press too. Will we have a problem with the holes
lining up after they've been drilled separately? Anybody have any better
ideas on how to do this task?
We've also been discussing the precarious situation of putting this thing in
straight (both in-line with the fuselage and straight up-and-down). Anybody
out there have a suggestion on alignment?
And one more question ... When installing the bottom skin at the back end of
the airplane, how easy is it to throw your tail-wheel alignment off? It
looks like one could throw the whole wad off a couple of degrees if not careful.
Are we being paranoid?
Thanks for the help.
Mark Kerzie
mkerzie(at)qnet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Proseal Guns. |
Dakota Electronics in Georgetown TX has these guns used, for $10.
512-990-7938.
Rgds,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Which model? |
Marc,
I called Van's this week, they are not taking tail orders yet for the RV-8.
Also, they have not started a waiting list. They expect to ship first RV-8
tail kits in Jan. or Feb. of 96. No other details are available at this
time. Flight testing is continuing.
After Oshkosh and seeing the RV-8, I've decided that I prefer it to the RV-6.
(I had puchased the plans for the RV-6) If cross-country travel with lots
of baggage is your goal, IMHO the RV-6 is the way to go.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
ammeterj.seanet.com!ammeterj(at)matronics.com (John Ammeter) says:
> Contrary to what we want people to believe, we really don't have _that_
> much rain.
SHHHH!!! You're not supposed to tell them that! They'll want to move up
here.
:-) Northwest humor.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, MR SCOTT R GESELE wrote:
> Also, how hard is it to install the
> servos in finished control surfaces?
It would be pretty difficult to install electric trim servos in the
finished (completed) elevator and aileron without drilling out a lot of
skin rivets.
The elevator trim servo mounts on a large doubler/bracket. To install
this bracket, you really need to have the skin on the top side of the
elevator open.
installation of the aileron trim *could* be done on a completed aileron,
but it would be tedious. A hole in the aileron spar needs to be cut and
a doubler installed. The tricky part would be getting the nutplates
installed on the aft side of the aileron spar. (The servo mounts in a
little tray, and the trey is secured to the aileron spar using two screws
into nutplats.
If my control surfaces were finished, I wouldn't consider electric trims.
As it is, I *still* have not decided on electric vs manual aileron trim.
I have the complete elec. aileron trim kit, and when I built the
ailerons, I did all the necessary mods to one of them. I just have not
yet cut the hole on the aileron for the access cover. The manual trim is
so simple. The electric aileron trim, on the other hand, is heavier, more
complex, and because the trim tab hangs off the trailing edge of the
aileron, it spoils the looks a little bit and is more prone to damage.
I'll probably install the electric aileron trim, but I'm not convinced it
is worth it.
The electric elevator trim, on the other hand, I really like. AFter
owning an airplane with electric elevator trim, I found that it really
reduces the pilot's workload during the landing phase. There's no need
to take you hand off the throttle and reach over/down to another control
to trim the airplane. I *did* find, however, that it was tougher to get
the trim setting 'just right' with electric trim.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
Drilling skins to the second wing tomorrow
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: Which model? |
You wrote:
>
>Marc,
>
>I called Van's this week, they are not taking tail orders yet for the
RV-8.
> Also, they have not started a waiting list. They expect to ship
first RV-8
>tail kits in Jan. or Feb. of 96. No other details are available at
this
>time. Flight testing is continuing.
>
>After Oshkosh and seeing the RV-8, I've decided that I prefer it to
the RV-6.
> (I had puchased the plans for the RV-6) If cross-country travel with
lots
>of baggage is your goal, IMHO the RV-6 is the way to go.
>
>Dick
>
I considered the RV-4 (fighter plane!) also, but remember this assumes
your current or future significant other likes to look at the back of
your head!
Bill Costello
RV-6 on empennage (right elevator)
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
You wrote:
>
>
>
>On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, MR SCOTT R GESELE wrote:
>
>> Also, how hard is it to install the
>> servos in finished control surfaces?
>
>It would be pretty difficult to install electric trim servos in the
>finished (completed) elevator and aileron without drilling out a lot
of
>skin rivets.
>
>The elevator trim servo mounts on a large doubler/bracket. To install
>this bracket, you really need to have the skin on the top side of the
>elevator open.
>
>installation of the aileron trim *could* be done on a completed
aileron,
>but it would be tedious. A hole in the aileron spar needs to be cut
and
>a doubler installed. The tricky part would be getting the nutplates
>installed on the aft side of the aileron spar. (The servo mounts in a
>little tray, and the trey is secured to the aileron spar using two
screws
>into nutplats.
>
>If my control surfaces were finished, I wouldn't consider electric
trims.
>
>As it is, I *still* have not decided on electric vs manual aileron
trim.
>I have the complete elec. aileron trim kit, and when I built the
>ailerons, I did all the necessary mods to one of them. I just have
not
>yet cut the hole on the aileron for the access cover. The manual trim
is
>so simple. The electric aileron trim, on the other hand, is heavier,
more
>complex, and because the trim tab hangs off the trailing edge of the
>aileron, it spoils the looks a little bit and is more prone to damage.
>I'll probably install the electric aileron trim, but I'm not convinced
it
>is worth it.
>
>The electric elevator trim, on the other hand, I really like. AFter
>owning an airplane with electric elevator trim, I found that it really
>reduces the pilot's workload during the landing phase. There's no
need
>to take you hand off the throttle and reach over/down to another
control
>to trim the airplane. I *did* find, however, that it was tougher to
get
>the trim setting 'just right' with electric trim.
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
>Drilling skins to the second wing tomorrow
>
>
Dave, did you consider the sensitivity adjustment potentiometer that
the MAC trim supplier sells for the elevator trim? Or do the people
you fly with have one installed. The rep at Oshkosh told me it gives
excellent control over the sensitivity. So I bought one. Of course, I
am about an ice age away from trying it out! Patience . . .
Regarding the aileron trim tab, I had one ordered with my wing kit, but
cancelled it (expecting wing kit any day -- with Phlogiston spar, but
nothing else added). Everyone I spoke with said don't get it. I have
flown in a few RVs and have never seen the pilot touch the aileron
trim. (I suspect they last flew dual with about the same fuel, and I
have never flown cross country more than 50 miles with them.) But I
suspect that this trim is used so infrequently, time-wise, that it
would be superfluous to have it on the stick.
What do you think about that?
Regards,
Bill Costello
RV-6 on right elevator
Chicago
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | dual wing jig & hurricane record |
<---- Begin Included Message ---->
(much interesting stuff deleted)
By the way, for those who built both wings at once, how far apart did you find
the jigs needed to be for adequate working room? 3 ft, 4ft? I'll keep a
careful log of
time spent and compare for those who give a darn about these things.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4 N4MF (reserved N#)
<---- End Included Message ---->
Mike,
My wings are about half done and so far I've had no problems with my dual wing
jig setup. There is a picture of a jig in the 14 Years of RVator book (or
12/92 RVator I guess) that places the closest surfaces of the wings at 24
inches apart. It is stated in the article that 30 inches would have been
better. I ended up with 37.5 inches between mine and it seems to be a
comfortable space to work in. The only problem is getting in and out of the
space between the wings. The way I set up my jig, it's almost impossible to
get through the space at the ends of the wings because of the crossbeams for
the main and rear spar. I chose to build mine rather high so I could duck
(sorry Don) under the rear spar. The top of my main spar support is 60 inches
from the floor which leaves 31 inches from the trailing edge of the top skin
to the floor. The preferred order of skin installation seems to be top first.
With that in mind, I made sure the top side of each wing is facing the inside
area of the jig. That will give better access to peel back the bottom skins
for riveting last. There should also be enough space below the rear spar to
mount the control surfaces without removing the wing from the jig.
It seems that I'm attempting to establish a record for the most direct
hurricane strikes to an RV project. First it was Erin 2 months ago, now Opal
a few days ago. The beach is gone! It's a very good thing that Opal slowed
from 150 mph to 125 mph in the last few hours. Our house is on the border of
the mandatory evacuation area for Opal but we stayed. Fortunately, we
received no further damage. Opal finished taking down the rest of our screen
pool enclosure that damaged and awaiting repair from Erin. We even got our
power and water back after about 24 hours. Aside from the devistation of the
beach area, the damage doesn't seem as bad as Erin. Most of the weak trees
and structures came down 2 months ago. All in all, my wife and I have been
very lucky. Prior to Erin, this area hasn't had a direct hit in about 60
years. Now we've had 2 in 2 months and here comes Pablo.
Russell Duffy
RV-6 sn-22407 (was for sale, now maybe not)
Good luck.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mkerzie(at)qnet.com (Mark G. Kerzie) |
| Subject: | What can be done before skinning the RV-6 fuselage? |
We are thinking about installing (drill, cleco, & nutplates only) baggage
floor panels, main & forward seat panels, and seat backs while the fuselage
is still in the jig (prior to skinning). We believe this sequence would
provide better access. These panels would be fastened in place later
(rivets and screws) after skinning the bottom and removal from the jig. Any
problems or consequences (i.e. possible shift in alignment, matching of
holes later during assembly, etc.)?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
>--------------
>The electric elevator trim, on the other hand, I really like. AFter
>owning an airplane with electric elevator trim, I found that it really
>reduces the pilot's workload during the landing phase. There's no need
>to take you hand off the throttle and reach over/down to another control
>to trim the airplane. I *did* find, however, that it was tougher to get
>the trim setting 'just right' with electric trim.
>
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
>--------------
It sounds to me like you need to add a Governor Mk III to your electric
elevator trim setup. The Governor Mk III would give you completely adjustable
servo speed. This way, you could slow the trim down and have far better
control of your pitch. See the Governor Mk III brochure below. These are
in stock and available for immediate shipment.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
================================================================================
The Governor Mk III
By Matronics
Electronic Servo Speed Control
The Governor Mk III is an adjustable electronic speed reduction and switch
multiplexor for the MAC S4, 4A, S6, 6A, S8, and 8A electric aircraft trim
servos. It is designed to be used in any application where an electric servo
is used such as elevator, aileron, or rudder trim. Each servo application
will require a separate Governor Mk III unit.
Features
General
* Small (3/4" X 1" X 2").
* Lightweight (1 oz.).
* Low cost ($55 list).
* Fast, easy installation.
* Complete, detailed installation instructions.
* Reliable, electronic circuitry.
* Compatible with MAC Trim's S4, S6 and S8 servo systems.
* Fully integrated design combining speed control with switch
multiplexing.
New Features in the Governor Mk III
* Trim control leads are actuated by connecting to ground, simplifying
installation and wiring.
* Internal circuitry now has increased short circuit protection.
* Redesigned printed circuit board for more reliability.
Speed Reduction
* Fully adjustable servo travel time.
* Reduces servo speed without reducing output torque.
* Increases trim precision while decreasing over-sensitivity.
Switch Multiplexing
* Allows multiple trim switches to be connected to the MAC servo for
use in tandem aircraft, etc.
* Opposite trim commands from separate switches will not cause
electrical shorting.
* Trim commands are taken on a first come, first serve basis - other
switches are disabled during trim input from the first switch used.
* Servo Dampening (stopping of the motor immediately following switch
release) is incorporated into the Governor's internal circuitry, no
longer requiring complicated wiring and special input switches.
Standard SPDT (or DPDT), center off, momentary contact switches may
now be used. This type of switch is more easily located and
installed, and may be purchased at a local electronics retailer.
* The Mk III model incorporates solid-state, printed circuit board
construction for high reliability.
The Governor Mk III is available from Van's Aircraft and direct from Matronics.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BrooksRV6(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Tail Light Mounting Technique |
A short while back, someone posted a question to the list regarding how to
mount the tail light into the rudder bottom. The following steps are how I
did mine:
1. On a sheet of wax paper, lay-up several layers of fiberglass cloth
(approx 6" x 6") and resin to achieve a thickness of at least 1/16" and
cover with another sheet of wax paper, a flat board, and some weight.
Allow to cure. The excess material from this laminated sheet can
be used to fill in the little squares left around the rudder
control horn later if desired.
2. Drill a 1 1/16" hole in the laminated sheet for the tail light.
3. Insert the tail light through the hole and mark the outline of the tail
light and mounting screw holes onto the laminated sheet. Cut
out along the outline and drill mounting holes.
4. Get two #4 nut-plates (available from Cleveland Aircraft Tool). Cut one
of the mounting lugs off of each nut-plate and rivet the
nut-plates onto the laminated mount with AN426-3 rivets to secure
the tail light mounting screws.
5. Screw two #4 screws into the nut-plates and put tape over the heads and
threads to mask them from resin while the mount is being fiberglassed
to the light blister.
6. Cut away the corner of the rudder with a 3" cutting disc in a die
grinder.
7. Fit the rudder bottom to the rudder and around the control horns. It may
be necessary to heat the fiberglass with a blow drier to get a
good fit. Make the tail light blister slightly smaller than your
laminated mount.
8. Drill and cleco the fiberglass rudder bottom to the rudder.
9. Attach the laminated mount to the fiberglass rudder bottom with
super-glue to hold it while it is being fiberglassed in place.
Super-glue holds the fiberglass amazingly well and sets
very fast.
10. Fillet the inside of the mount where it meets the blister with thickened
resin (resin with flox or chopped cloth). This can be done by reaching
in through the 1 1/16" hole. Allow to cure.
11. Fair in the light blister to the mount with the filler of your choice. I
had good results with Poly-Fibre Superlight. I used West
Systems Epoxy for the fiberglass lay-ups and was satisfied with it
also.
I was so happy with my tail light that I'm thinking of installing brake
lights!
Chris Brooks, RV-6
Building the wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Gascolator Help Needed |
I've got a fellow builder who is having some probs with his design regarding
a gascolator enclosure. Has anyone out there come up with a good gascolator
enclosure design that adequately vents and mounts. Having problems
constructing one and mounting to firewall.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
First, MR SCOTT R GESELE wrote:
>
> Also, how hard is it to install the
> servos in finished control surfaces?
I replied, including:
> I *did* find, however, that it was tougher to get
> >the trim setting 'just right' with electric trim.
To which Bill Costello asked:
> Dave, did you consider the sensitivity adjustment potentiometer that
> the MAC trim supplier sells for the elevator trim?
Yes, I have considered it. If I need it, I will install one.
Since it does not need to go inside the elevator, I can put off
that decision.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
>--------------
>
>First, MR SCOTT R GESELE wrote:
>>
>> Also, how hard is it to install the
>> servos in finished control surfaces?
>
>I replied, including:
>
>> I *did* find, however, that it was tougher to get
>> >the trim setting 'just right' with electric trim.
>
>To which Bill Costello asked:
>
>> Dave, did you consider the sensitivity adjustment potentiometer that
>> the MAC trim supplier sells for the elevator trim?
>
Remember, this is what the Governor does - only better as it has switch
multiplexing built-in and also comes in a very attractive enclosure.
>Yes, I have considered it. If I need it, I will install one.
>Since it does not need to go inside the elevator, I can put off
>that decision.
>
>Dave Barnhart
>
>--------------
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim Governor |
>--------------
>Hi Matt,
>Would you relate the specific advantages of your Governor over the
>rheostat the MAC sells? I bought the MAC, but might be able to return
>it or sell it or write it off.
>Also, how much is your governor?
>
>Thanks
> Bill Costello
>--------------
The Governor controls the speed of the servo by regulating the *voltage*,
but supplying full required current to the motor. Using this technique,
you will generally see close to full output *torque* over the entire
adjustable speed range. Using a rheostat decreases both voltage and current.
While using this technique will slow the servo motor down, it will also
significantly reduce the output torque of the servo as well, especially at
slower speeds.
The Governor also includes built in Servo Dampening (stopping of the motor
immediately following switch release), which means you longer need the
special input switches for that 'crisp' servo response. Standard SPDT, center
off, momentary contact switches can be used. This is the type of switch that
is typically found in pistol grips. Another feature of the Governor circuitry
is the ability to have more than one swich connected to the servo, i.e.
front person, back person, etc. The standard Mac Switch will short out and
burn the wires if you try to connect two of them together.
List price for the Governor is $55. You can also obtain them from Van's.
Hope to put a Governor is *your* plane. If you do, you won't be sorry!
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | veideman(at)junction.net (Dusty Veideman) |
| Subject: | Re: Gascolator Help Needed |
Aircraft Spruce has a good stainless one and reasonable too! Fits perfectly
with Van's gascolator.
Dusty
Flying his RV-6 for 37 days and have 29.7 hours on it....
>I've got a fellow builder who is having some probs with his design regarding
>a gascolator enclosure. Has anyone out there come up with a good gascolator
>enclosure design that adequately vents and mounts. Having problems
>constructing one and mounting to firewall.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ross Rebgetz <Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvadmin.tvl.tcp.csiro.au> |
| Subject: | Re: BAC wing kit actual time saved?? |
At 09:58 06/10/95 +22305823, you wrote:
But let's take an example, that of Jerry Scott, the loony who
>builds award winning RV's in 85 days or something.
>
> Now, he starts work at 6:00am and doesn't quit until midnight every day.
>So at 18 hours a day, for 85 days, that's STILL 1530 hours! That's why it takes
>the rest of us 2000+ hours/many years to crank an airplane out.
When talking to Jerry Scott at Osh he also said he had a friend help for
about 4 hours a day. When you add that time to his own remarkable endurance
my calculation was 1900 to 2000 hours.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: +61 077 538 570
Fax: +61 077 538 600
CSIRO Mail: CSIRO
Division of Tropical Crops & Pastures Davies Laboratory
Davies Laboratory Private Mail Bag
University Road Aitkenvale Qld 4814
Townsville Australia
AUSTRALIA
Email: Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Electric Elevator Trim |
I just finished installing electric elevator trim into my finished airplane.
I
removed the center console panel to gain more "comfort" room and installed a
2 inch vertical panel indented 1 inch forward on to the bottom of the main
panel, to hold my controls etc. I wanted the room usually taken up by manual
trim, so I put in
the electric trim. Haven't tried it yet, making other mods to my airplane
right now.
I don't have a governor on it. It appears to move pretty slowly, but I'll
have
to determine that later if it is slow enough. The "Governor III" looks best
to me.
Van's documentation for installation leaves a lot to be determined by the
builder. He could have spent another couple hours on it and solved a lot of
problems for you. I'll tell you what I did, (you have to look at the
drawings):
1. To get access I drilled out On TOP: all root rivets, all hinge rivets,
the
first 4 rivets holding skin to the forward spar, and the first stiffener. On
BOTTOM:
all root rivets, the first 4 on the trailing edge, and Athe first stiffener.
2. His drawings show the location of the brackets on trim tab. The only way
they can be located as shown is if you trim the doubler plate severly on the
end next to the elevator root, i.e. position it close to the root. Well the
IMPORTANT THING is to position it such that you simultaneously A. have a hole
in the doubler large enough for installation of the servo, B. have enough
edge
distance for the rivets holding the doubler plate to the skin, and C. have
enough doubler plate showing to properly (edge distance) install the
nutplates
into the doubler. There is quite a bit of fit-up to make it come out that
way.
One reason he does it this way is to enable locating the trim tab bracket
such
that it mounts to the more rigid area. My trim tab bracket is about 3/4 of
an
inch farther away from the root than he shows, so I made it longer such that
it
rivets into the L.E. spar flange of the tab, and the folded over root edge of
the tab.
3. Its not necessary to make the access hole or the cover plate in the shape
he
shows. In fact its easier to make it to suit.
4. Remember to adjust the forward angle bend on the doubler plate so it is
flush with the elevator spar web.
5. On the forward end of the doubler, there will not be much elevator skin
overlapping it, so it is kind of floppy. I would rather leave enough skin to
rivet it to the doubler in this area. Skip the nutplates in this area and
install an
underlip on that end of the coverplate assembly to act as the retainer.
5. The brackets Van supplies which mount the servo, do not space it away from
the coverplate far enough to get the needed angle on the pushrod. I had to
add
1/4 inch spacers. Should have re-made the brackets.
6. I used the 3/32 structural POP rivets Van sell for closing the bottom and
some of the top. Was able to use hard rivets on the hinge.
7. The wires on the MAC stuff are 26 gauge I think. I used their wire (5
conductor) and their DIN connectors in 3 places, under the panel, behind the
wing spar, and in the elevator. Seems to be an easy way to handle such small
wires.
8. The MAC switch and indicator need 2 inches vertical minimum to mount. I
put mine next to my throttle, along with my flap switch for easy reach.
Couldn't come
up with a way to delete the indicator which I don't care much for.
9. Don't cut the pushrod clearance slot until you've completed installation
of the coverplate assembly. This way it will fit.
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Belly Skin Rivets |
Went to a local EAA Picnic today and overheard a discussion from a local RV6
flyer who has one of the oldest flying RV's in S. Illinois. He has a problem
with smoking rivets on the belly skin in front of his wing (especially behind
the firewall). He stated he inquired about the problem to one of Vans
representatives at Oshkosh this year and whoever he spoke to indicated this
situation was beginning to appear on other RV's. Apparently the rep stated
the piece should have been dimpled instead of countersunk. Are any of you
flying RVers out there having this problem or is this one just a fluke?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | hillsboro a/c accident |
fire comunications reported "stunt plane down" over on hwy. 47, between banks
and forest grove. it was a fatal incident. any info on what type of aircraft
this was?
jimnjac
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Torque Wrench Help |
Hi Folks,
I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things, but REALLY ignorant about
torque wrenches, having never used one at all.
Is there a single torque wrench that I could use for the nylock lugs,
the engine mount and the prop bolts? Can anyone recommend a model and
source for a reliable wrench? I sure would appreciate some help on
this.
Bill Costello
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Trip to D.C. Area |
Hi Folks,
My wife and I will be attending (flying commerically, unfortunately) a
nephew's wedding in Bethesda, MD the first weekend of November.
Can anyone tell me if there is anything going on with RV groups there
at that time? Are there any airports near there with planes to see?
Best regards,
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
I have it after 350 hours. Don't know what to do about it. I countersunk,
since it is .040 material which is supposed to be OK for 3/32 rivets. It's
too late now to dimple.
Jim Stugart
Austin TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
You wrote:
>
>Went to a local EAA Picnic today and overheard a discussion from a
local RV6
>flyer who has one of the oldest flying RV's in S. Illinois. He has a
problem
>with smoking rivets on the belly skin in front of his wing (especially
behind
>the firewall). He stated he inquired about the problem to one of Vans
>representatives at Oshkosh this year and whoever he spoke to indicated
this
>situation was beginning to appear on other RV's. Apparently the rep
stated
>the piece should have been dimpled instead of countersunk. Are any of
you
>flying RVers out there having this problem or is this one just a
fluke?
>
This is the first I have heard of this phenomenon. Would you explain
exactly what you mean by 'smoking rivets' (new term to me), just where
this is occuring, and how much area around the problem is supposed to
be dimpled vs countersunk? I would like to create some notes for
myself so that when I get to the fuselage I can avoid the problem,
whatever it is. Thanks much.
Best Regards,
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
Matt wrote:
> Another feature of the Governor circuitry
>is the ability to have more than one swich connected to the servo, i.e.
>front person, back person, etc. The standard Mac Switch will short out and
>burn the wires if you try to connect two of them together.
Isn't this what the relay deck does from MAC? It isolates the switches and
allows either to operate the servo.
Also, I was able to install a servo into a finished elevator. It was a bit
tricky but the result is worth it. Don't let this put you off if you really
want it, it CAN be done. I opted against retro fitting into an aileron,
instead decided to install the mechanical trim. If at some time in the future
I decide I REALLy want electric aileron trim, I'll probably attach the servo
to the mechanical trim.
Ken
Almost done 6a
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Re: Installing the Tailwheel Spring on the RV-6 |
We've been putting off drilling the bolt hole through the WD-602 sleeve and
U-602 tail spring. We've talked about drilling a pilot hole through the
sleeve and spring, pulling the spring out of the sleeve, and doing the
full-size hole with a drill press. We'd probably go ahead and finish off
the sleeve with the drill press too. Will we have a problem with the holes
lining up after they've been drilled separately? Anybody have any better
ideas on how to do this task?
I followed the suggestions of a couple of RV builders. I am building
a -4, but I suspect that the technique should work OK for the -6.
Basically, I jigged the tail wheel (see next comment) and drilled
through the weldment until I just started *marking* the tail spring.
I used the final bolt size (forget the size). Then, I took the tail
spring to my drill press and aligned it vertically using Avery's
*centering jig* and drilled the hole. I put the tail spring back into
the weldment and aligned the previously drilled weldment hole with the
tail spring hole with a *drift pin*. I checked alignment and then
hand drilled through the previously drilled holes in the weldment and
tail spring coming out the other side. Seemed to work well. I was
told that I should use this technique for the landing gear drilling
(older mount; not pre-drilled).
We've also been discussing the precarious situation of putting this thing in
straight (both in-line with the fuselage and straight up-and-down). Anybody
out there have a suggestion on alignment?
If your bulkheads are aligned with the center line, then the weldment
will hold the tail spring straight. Fortunately, there is some *slop*
in the aft weldment area (at least on a -4) since you do *not* bolt
the aft portion of the weldment until the vert stab is installed.
But, I noticed that things stayed pretty much aligned. Just be
careful when installing the aft skins after the fuse is out of the
jig.
To align the tail spring while in the jig, I clamped aluminum angle
scrap to the wheel vertically and used a smart level plus plumb bob.
The plumb bob ensured that I was over the extended centerline of the
jig and the level ensured that I was plumb. I then used my *Mark I*
eyeballs to sight along the jig centerline as a final *check*. I jury
rigged clamps to hold everything in place while I drilled the first
hole through the weldment...
And one more question ... When installing the bottom skin at the back end of
the airplane, how easy is it to throw your tail-wheel alignment off? It
looks like one could throw the whole wad off a couple of degrees if not careful.
I will be quite easy to throw things out of alignment. The fuse is
flexible (as can be seen on the Orndorff(sp?) video. Just be careful
when installing the aft top skin(s).
Are we being paranoid?
Not necessarily. I test flew a fellow's RV-6 that others in the
chapter thought was not constructed all that well. His tail wheel
alignment and landing gear alignment, however, were *spot on* and his
bird tracked perfectly. Now, given the general problems with his
*techniques* elsewhere, it is possible that he had some *sloppiness*
in the alignment and that Van's birds are quite forgiving. This plane
tracked as if it were on rails even with strong X-winds.
Also, as some wag wrote on my office blackboard one day, "Just because
you are paranoid, doesn't mean the world isn't out to get you."
:-)
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Richard S. Ward) |
| Subject: | Re: Installing the Tailwheel Spring on the RV-6 |
>We've been putting off drilling the bolt hole through the WD-602 sleeve and
>U-602 tail spring. We've talked about drilling a pilot hole through the
>sleeve and spring, pulling the spring out of the sleeve, and doing the
>full-size hole with a drill press. We'd probably go ahead and finish off
>the sleeve with the drill press too. Will we have a problem with the holes
>lining up after they've been drilled separately? Anybody have any better
>ideas on how to do this task?
I would recommend that you drill the parts together; drill the pilot hole,
then with a "D" size, and then ream to 1/4". Be very careful when you
separate the two pieces after drilling; if you pick up a burr between the
two, you'll never get them apart - the burr will roll up and wedge the
parts together. I learned this the hard way!! Note: these two pars are a
matched pair and cost around $130. Oh, also never put the parts together
dry, use a little oil, LPS-3 or other type of lubricant.
As far as drilling the parts separately after the pilot hole - well in my
opinion, that's an invitation to have to get the next larger bolt.
>
>We've also been discussing the precarious situation of putting this thing in
>straight (both in-line with the fuselage and straight up-and-down). Anybody
>out there have a suggestion on alignment?
I put the wheel forks on the tail spring and leveled it with respect to
the fuselage. That seem to work fine; make sure the forks are straight
before you start - mine were off a little.
>
>And one more question ... When installing the bottom skin at the back end of
>the airplane, how easy is it to throw your tail-wheel alignment off? It
>looks like one could throw the whole wad off a couple of degrees if not
>careful.
>
If the bulkheads are well clamped and you have a good skin-bulkhead fit,
nothing should move after riveting.
-- Rich, RV4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Belly Skin Rivets -Reply |
>>> 10/08/95 05:54pm >>>
Went to a local EAA Picnic today and
overheard a discussion from a local RV6
flyer who has one of the oldest flying RV's
in S. Illinois. He has a problem with
smoking rivets on the belly skin in front of
his wing (especially behind the firewall).
He stated he inquired about the problem to
one of Vans representatives at Oshkosh this
year and whoever he spoke to indicated this
situation was beginning to appear on other
RV's. Apparently the rep stated the piece
should have been dimpled instead of
countersunk. Are any of you flying RVers
out there having this problem or is this one
just a fluke?
This was discussed about a year ago on this
list. Don Wentz and others in that area have
had the problem. It seemed to be mostly on
180 hp planes. Evidently there is a lot of
movement between the firewall structure and
skins due to engine stresses landing gear
stress etc. The solution I believe for
exsisting aircraft was to drill out the 3/32
and add OOPS 1/8 shank rivets and add 1/8
inchs rivets in between. Don recommended for
new construction that area be dimpled, use
1/8" rivets and pro-seal the skin to the
bulkhead.
Maybe Don could give us an update on the
status of the repair.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Re: What can be done before skinning the RV-6 fusel |
I am building an RV-4 and have done it this way. My fuse is still in
the jig, so I am not sure about the misalignment potential, but I
highly doubt there will be any. The fuse skeleton appears to be quite
rigid.
One word of advice: when Van says to "pop rivet" the floors and
baggage compartment, don't do what I did. I followed the advice of
another builder (plane flying for 8 years) and installed nutplates for
the whole shebang. What a royal PITA. The other builder claimed that
you would be putting the floors/baggage compartments in/out several
times. I kept a log: it took an additional 37 hours to install all
the nutplates for the floors and baggage areas. Countersinking the
floors that are beneath other pieces, adding reinforcing strips to the
thin bulkhead material to accept countersunk screws, ... all took
time. Van is right! Don't mess with it :-)
I did install all my controls, elevator trim, rudder cables, and even
installed the throttle quadrant while the side skins were off.
Definitely easier to reach through the *sides* with drills, unibits,
...
I could not do my seats because a jig cross member got in the way of
the aft seat for correct positioning and the front seat of the -4
needs to be adjusted to fit under the roll bar (shoulder belt
clearance...) Otherwise, I would have done those, too.
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
RV-4 #2866: fuse in jig, installing rudder cables through aft side
skins with Orndorff (sp?) fairings.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: What can be done before skinning the RV-6 fuselage?
Date: 10/7/95 10:56 AM
We are thinking about installing (drill, cleco, & nutplates only) baggage
floor panels, main & forward seat panels, and seat backs while the fuselage
is still in the jig (prior to skinning). We believe this sequence would
provide better access. These panels would be fastened in place later
(rivets and screws) after skinning the bottom and removal from the jig. Any
problems or consequences (i.e. possible shift in alignment, matching of
holes later during assembly, etc.)?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
This has been covered in this list recently, apparently the rivets are
"working" in the holes, and a fix is to add more rivets, probably by
drilling out the ones already there, drilling additional holes, dimpling
them, and then re-rivet.
Jeff Hall
RV4 2179
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
| Subject: | Re: hillsboro a/c acciden |
AO>fire comunications reported "stunt plane down" over on hwy. 47, between bank
AO>and forest grove. it was a fatal incident. any info on what type of aircraft
AO>this was?
AO>jimnjac
A message on compuserve indicated it was an RV-3, inflight wing failure.
My condolences to family members and friends.
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | Need Van's phone number please |
I'm at work and need to order a part from Van. I can't find the phone
# anywhere. Would someone be kind enough to post it please?
thanks
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: hillsboro a/c accident |
Text item:
RV3, Dr. Steve Moseley was killed on impact.
fire comunications reported "stunt plane down" over on hwy. 47, between banks
and forest grove. it was a fatal incident. any info on what type of aircraft
this was?
jimnjac
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: RV-List: hillsboro a/c accident
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 20:33:08 -0400
From: aol.com!JIMNJAC(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: MAC Electric Trim |
>--------------
>Matt wrote:
>
>> Another feature of the Governor circuitry
>>is the ability to have more than one swich connected to the servo, i.e.
>>front person, back person, etc. The standard Mac Switch will short out and
>>burn the wires if you try to connect two of them together.
>
>
>Isn't this what the relay deck does from MAC? It isolates the switches and
>allows either to operate the servo.
>
>--------------
Yes, but the Governor combines the speed regulation and switch multiplexing
into one, very small enclosure that, as I recal, costs less than the
combination of the similar products by MAC.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Need Van's phone number please |
vans aircraft (503)647-5117
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
FYI, I dimpled my RV-4 belly skin. I did this after swearing off
counter sinking where ever possible after having done it (in ignorance)
on my HS and VS.
The only problem the dimpling caused is on the center seam on the RV4
(where you have to cut a section out of the middle and then splice it
back together), the dimpling did streach the metal a little and this
caused a slight pucker in the seam that makes it want to 'oil can'
a little. I will probably put a small bulkhead above that area to
hold it to the proper shape.
After hearing about the problems in the firewall/bottom skin area,
I am glad that I dimpled this .040 skin.
Herman
RV-4, almost ready to paint.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Belly Skin Rivets |
Gary, I spoke ad nauseum on this when I was on the list, have them check the
archives for more info:
But, simply put -
- DON'T machine countersink ANY skins,
- Especially the .040 floorpan on RV-6/6A
- DO use dimpled 1/8" rivets on the spar carrythru to .040 skin, the floor skin
stiffeners, and the floor skin to firewall connection.
- DO use proseal at the firewall/floor seam to prevent oil/fluid from
soaking-thru into the cabin.
I have seen MANY -6 with this 'working' rivet issue in this area, including my
own after less than 100 hrs. I replaced all (3/32) rivets in the floor pan with
1/8", and added a second set of 3/32 (to duplicate the originals), and after
more than 100 additional hours, including more/harder aerobatics (as my skills
improve), I have NO working rivets to report in the areas that I
repaired/noticed before. ALL 'working' rivets were machine cntrsnk.
Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369 (230hrs)
Maybe you can speak to this one Don
You wrote:
>
>Went to a local EAA Picnic today and overheard a discussion from a
local RV6
>flyer who has one of the oldest flying RV's in S. Illinois. He has a
problem
>with smoking rivets on the belly skin in front of his wing (especially
behind
>the firewall). He stated he inquired about the problem to one of Vans
>representatives at Oshkosh this year and whoever he spoke to indicated
this
>situation was beginning to appear on other RV's. Apparently the rep
stated
>the piece should have been dimpled instead of countersunk. Are any of
you
>flying RVers out there having this problem or is this one just a
fluke?
>
This is the first I have heard of this phenomenon. Would you explain
exactly what you mean by 'smoking rivets' (new term to me), just where
this is occuring, and how much area around the problem is supposed to
be dimpled vs countersunk? I would like to create some notes for
myself so that when I get to the fuselage I can avoid the problem,
whatever it is. Thanks much.
Best Regards,
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Pneumatic Proseal Guns. |
They sold out. Had 100 units and the price was $5.00, sigh!
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-List: Pneumatic Proseal Guns.
Date: 10/7/95 12:16 PM
Dakota Electronics in Georgetown TX has these guns used, for $10.
512-990-7938.
Rgds,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING Torque Wrenches
Generally, there are three (3) flavors of torque wrenches. They are usually
calibrated in :(1) foot/pounds (2) inch/pounds and (3) inch/ounces. Metric
values are also readily available. The wrench has a scale that displays the
amount of torque (twist) you are imparting to fasteners, bolts or studs as
well as any other mechanism that needs a precision amount of torque applied.
Other examples are the front wheel bearings in your car that need a pre-load,
the pinion bearings in the differential and torsion bar devises. There are
hundreds of applications and as you guess there are many variants and special
adapters for these wrenches. However, for your use it is simply a wrench with
a calibrated, readable scale (usually on the handle) and a square socket drive
i.e. 1/4",3/8",1/2" on the end. To use it you add the required socket and
twist the nut/bolt to a specified value. This is an oversimplification.
There are many theories on the correct fastening SEQUENCE of multiple
fasteners, re-torque after some set criteria and the use of lubricants
effecting the final result. What I'm indicating here is that you owe it to
yourself to get more than a cursory knowledge of this subject. The simplest
(and cheapest) wrenches are a deflecting beam style and are available from
Sears Roebuck (Craftsman) and many others. The scale is readable but with
marginal resolution. One of the most expensive is by Snap-On but the dial
indicator gives outstanding resolution. There are many other brands with
various prices between these two. For certified use all torque wrenches must
be calibrated every 6 months. However, in my experience I have never seen a
friend with a wrench that was ever calibrated during its lifetime except when
it left the factory! Adapters are made to increase the leverage of the wrench
(by Snap-On and others). They allow is use in unusual or difficult places or
attitudes but they also let you extend the range of a wrench! If you have a
wrench with a 200 LB limit but you need 300 LB, an extender will lengthen the
beam length to give you the added force. The scale will read the same units
as your un-extended wrench but since you have increased the length of your
leverage you have imparted more force to the nut/bolt. You must be VERY
careful and do the arithmetic because your scale will not show the increased
force due to the added leverage. Most mechanics I know have two wrenches ,a
foot/LB and an inch/pound set, however units vary to match your technology
and needs.
All you engineering types - I know that the correct terminology is
force/length not length/force but since even the tool catalogs use the wrong
terminology why add more confusion!
Its great that you are asking these questions. Isn't that what the
EXPERIMENTAL classification is all about... the development of education,
knowledge and experience in the pursuit of personnel pleasure.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Gascolator Help Needed |
>I've got a fellow builder who is having some probs with his design regarding
>a gascolator enclosure. Has anyone out there come up with a good gascolator
>enclosure design that adequately vents and mounts. Having problems
>constructing one and mounting to firewall.
Tony Bingelis (in his latest "Engines" book) shows a simple
U-shaped wrap of aluminum that attaches to one of the commercially
available (Vans, Spruce, Wicks, Wag, etc.) gascolator mounts. He then uses
a short length of Vans black electrical conduit as a cooling hose from the
rear baffle.
Why not just buy the commercial mount and modify this way?? It's
quick and easy.
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... working on front top decking structure
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | Got phone number, thanks |
I got it,thanks. The reason I don't have it memorized is that I never
make any mistakes and don't have to call them!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: Need Van's phone number please |
You wrote:
>
>I'm at work and need to order a part from Van. I can't find the phone
># anywhere. Would someone be kind enough to post it please?
>
>thanks
>
>John
>
Van's number is 503-647-5117
Best Regards,
Bill Costello
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Duck Works landing light installation done |
This weekend I installed a pair of Don's Duckworks lights.
I installed a light kit in each wing, one for Taxi and one for Landing.
The installation went fine and it is a well thought out kit and
documentation. My wings are not on the plane yet and the wing tips
are still off (my tips are set up to be screwed on, not rivited on).
The job is much easier with the wing tips off. The kit is designed
to be installed even if the wing tips are on the plane but I suggest
doing it before you install the tips. The access is much easier
as you have one large lightning hole that you can put your arm through.
This simplified drilling the holes in the ribs for the nut plates.
I was also able to get my pneumatic rivet squezer inside the wing
and squeze the nut plate rivets using AN rivets (in place of the 426
pop rivets provided with the kit for the nut plates).
This also allows you to put your arm in and push the plexiglass lense
tight against the leading edge skin when drilling it. I don't see how
you could get it tight with the method Don suggests (using strapping tape
around the lense and pulling on it), but Don's the expert on this.
I timed the installation of the second light and it took me 5 hours
elapsed time (12:00 to 5:00) and that included some interruptions
with folks walking into the hanger. I had one other person help
for about 10 Min. to have them drill the holes into the plexiglass
while I pressed it firmly against the LE skin and held a backup wood
block against the lense inside so the plexiglass would not chip.
I think the first light probably took about 2 hours longer just sorting
out the instructions and doing it the first time.
At this point, I have left the lense and light out until I finish the
painting of the exterior, then I will slip in the light and put the
lense in with the stainless screws provided. This way I will not have
paint in the screws.
Herman
RV-4, almost ready to paint
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Belly Skin Rivets |
As I recall the old postings this was happening in the F604
bulkhead area on the RV-6A, possibly due to the trigear placement and
resulting stresses. I don't recall this being a problem with the
-6. Recommended posible solutions: dimple do not countersink, reduce
rivet spacing, use 1/8" rivets.
Has any RV-6 flyers had this problem?
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995 aol.com!CRazer2(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Went to a local EAA Picnic today and overheard a discussion from a local RV6
> flyer who has one of the oldest flying RV's in S. Illinois. He has a problem
> with smoking rivets on the belly skin in front of his wing (especially behind
> the firewall). He stated he inquired about the problem to one of Vans
> representatives at Oshkosh this year and whoever he spoke to indicated this
> situation was beginning to appear on other RV's. Apparently the rep stated
> the piece should have been dimpled instead of countersunk. Are any of you
> flying RVers out there having this problem or is this one just a fluke?
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Hint on drilling main LG and Tail wheel |
The questions today on drilling the tailwheel spring reminded me of this.
Bob Brashier (Waco Tx) told me about the cobalt bits about 4 yrs ago.
When drilling into the hard steel on the main gear legs or tail spring,
do the following.
1) Go buy some 'Cobalt' drill bits. I bought mine at the local
Ace HW store. I don't recall the brand, I think it is something with
'Vermont' in the name. These bits are great. You may need about 3 sizes,
say 1/8, 1/4, 5/16 for example.
2) Use a drill that will turn slow speed. I used a simple cordless
drill for most of the holes. It has a low and high speed. Put it
in low gear. This way, there is no way to over rev it.
You can also use a variable speed drill but don't over rev it.
The trick is to turn the bit slow and let it cut. If it starts spinning
it will heat the metal and it will get hard(er) and then you will have
real problems.
Also, do not put any oil on it. You can use some 'cutting fluid'
but not cutting oil. The cutting fluid helps the bit bite into the
steel. I don't recall the name brand of the fluid, but you can get
a small can at hardware stores or a hose/bearing store (like Capitol
Bolt here in Austin).
3) Drill the first pilot hole with the 1/8 bit.
Then move up to larger bits as needed.
You can use this method if you hand drill it or if you drill in on a
drill press. I hand drilled the main gear on the aircraft.
The process described earlier today on drilling the tailwheel sounded
OK to me. I just wanted to pass on the idea of the cobalt bits.
I have found these bits to be superior to titanimum and some of the
other types of bits out there.
Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrench Help |
>Hi Folks,
>I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things, but REALLY ignorant about
>torque wrenches, having never used one at all.
>Is there a single torque wrench that I could use for the nylock lugs,
>the engine mount and the prop bolts? Can anyone recommend a model and
>source for a reliable wrench? I sure would appreciate some help on
>this.
>
> Bill Costello
> RV-6 on right elevator
> bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
>
If you want accurate torque settings, you must buy a good torque wrench and
you wil
have to have more than one. The only type I buy is Snap-On. They are
expensive, but
they are very accurate.>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrenches |
>REGARDING Torque Wrenches
>
>Generally, there are three (3) flavors of torque wrenches. They are usually
>calibrated in :(1) foot/pounds (2) inch/pounds and (3) inch/ounces. Metric
*** lots of good stuff cut out ***
>Its great that you are asking these questions. Isn't that what the
>EXPERIMENTAL classification is all about... the development of education,
>knowledge and experience in the pursuit of personal pleasure.
Harbor Freight sells a nice one for $26 that is 1/4 inch drive and
has a range of 0 to 200 in. lbs. ( 0 to 16 ft. lbs.) that would be most
useful for a RV airframe (you would need a bigger one for engine work).
This particular one got a good write-up in "Light Plane Maintenance" a few
years ago -- somewhat of a surprise, since most of their tool reviews are
upper-level suppliers (high $$$). I gather not many firms sell 1/4 drive
torque wrenches.
It comes with a nice plastic carry case, and they advertise 4%
accuracy, good enough for our use, and sure beats the TLAR (That Looks
About Right) approach, or the tighten until it shears, and then back off
1/2 a turn, approach :^)
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701, N64GA (reserved)
Std. disclaimer ... just a satisfied Harbor Freight customer (800-905-5220
for a catalog) .... buy your ScotchBrite disks there for much less $$$.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | My $.02 on torque wrenches |
I have two torque wrenches. One is a Snap-On. It was very expensive,
but has been extremenly reliable. The second one is from Sears. Once
upon a time, Sears made good torque wrenches. Now, however, they are
made with far too many plastic parts. The Sears torque wrench does not
hold its calibration well, and has had to be repaired twice (once when
its insides fell apart). If you count the initial cost plus the repair
charges, I've spent more on the Sears torque wrench than the Snap-On.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
I would like to compare flight test data with other RV4's...climb
rates,VX,Vy,Best glide speed,stall, and cruise mph at single pilot and gross
loadings. My RV4 is 160 HP empty weight 950...wood prop 72x74.
stall 50 mph with flaps ..60 without. Cruise at 7500 is 178 but I should do
better when I have my prop reworked (it's a little overpitched and I don't
get optimum RPM's out of it. Best glide seem to be 90.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Installing the Tailwheel Spring on the RV-6 |
Richard Ward gave good advice on drilling. If you are going to use the full
swivel tailwheel, consider this: I did a pretty good job of drilling the
wheel socket to the tailwheel rod, or so I thought. After about 50 hours
the hole in the aluminum hole elongated which gave me a wobbly tailwheel. I
replaced the bolt with two SS taperpins, threaded on the bottom. There was
never any movement or problem with the hole in the aluminum afterwards.
Jim Stugart
Austin, TX
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
The rule I have use on countersinking vrs dimples is just the opposite of
the way most people seem to think.
IF IT IS TOO THICK TO DIMPLE, COUNTERSINK
The opposite, is it thick enough to countersink is trouble. Dimpling is
faster and easier than cksing, except you have to do it twice, or three
times. A pneumatic squeezer solves a lot of the issues.
Bruce Patton
.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
>I would like to compare flight test data with other RV4's...climb
>rates,VX,Vy,Best glide speed,stall, and cruise mph at single pilot and gross
>loadings. My RV4 is 160 HP empty weight 950...wood prop 72x74.
>stall 50 mph with flaps ..60 without. Cruise at 7500 is 178 but I should do
>better when I have my prop reworked (it's a little overpitched and I don't
>get optimum RPM's out of it. Best glide seem to be 90.
>
my RV-6 has a 150 HP engine and a Pacesetter clone (Irlbeck) 68 x 69 prop.
Stall without flaps is about 62 indicated at gross and about 54 with flaps.
Cruise at 7500 to 8500, full throttle and leaned is about 175 to 180 MPH;
this is at 2700 to 2750 RPM. Best glide seems to be about 115 MPH. At
anything below 83 MPH indicated it seems to fall out of the sky. My best
climb rate is about 115 to 120 MPH. Best angle is around 85 to 90 indicated
but at that speed you can't see what you're flying into. Top speed is about
193 MPH. I actually got a little more speed with the 68 x 66 prop I had on
it originally but to get top speed the engine was running at almost 2950
RPM. I was developing more HP but at the cost of over reving my engine. I
feel that the prop I have on it now is more suited for cruise than climb but
who worries about climb with an RV??
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
I would like to compare flight test data with other RV4's...climb
rates,VX,Vy,Best glide speed,stall, and cruise mph at single pilot and gross
loadings. My RV4 is 160 HP empty weight 950...wood prop 72x74.
stall 50 mph with flaps ..60 without. Cruise at 7500 is 178 but I should do
better when I have my prop reworked (it's a little overpitched and I don't
get optimum RPM's out of it. Best glide seem to be 90.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Another 1st flight! |
Cable Airport, Upland California
9 October 1995
RV-6 N6AX built and piloted by Dennis Ashby made its first flight
today. This is a 180 HP, C.S., full IFR bird.
This brings to over 20 RV'S built at Cable with 6 more 6's (&A's) 2
-4's and 1 -3 on the field being built.
Gary A. Sobek -6 20480 N157GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Setting landing gear -6A |
Here is a question for all you 6-A builders who have set their landing
gear.
Van calls for setting the position of the landing gear with the
fuselage in the jig and the wings mounted. Many say that wood blocks
can be substituted for the wings. How have you done it??
Any problems with using the wood block method?? I know that the holes
which go through the spar and landing gear get drilled bigger than the
spar predrilled holes. If a wood block is used, these holes have to be
drilled through the spar later. Might this cause misalignment when
using the landing gear holes as guides?? I know of one builder who
posed this question to Van last week and that was his concern.
Possible problems include uneven tire wear and maybe
some "squirrelliness" on the ground.
Ross Mickey
setting builkheads and floor ribs in 6-A
________________________________________________________________________________
I read in the October issue of SportPlane that the RV-3 that crashed near HIO
was the first customer built RV-3 built by Art Chard many years ago. Is
there some problem with the wing/spar design on early model RV-3s?
Regards,
R.G. Welch
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | Belly Skin Rivets |
I called Van's with regards to the countersunk 3/32" rivets failing
on the .040 bottom fuse skin. They suggested putting additional
rivets between the existing rivets. I am working on the finishing
kit and would like to address this problem before the A/C is painted.
Does anyone have any suggestions on which type of rivet will be most
appropriate (strongest) for this "repair"? ( the skin is already
rivetted and I do not want to drill out all those rivets)
Option 1: Add 3/32" countersunk rivets between existing rivets.
Option 2: Add 1/8" countersunk rivets and countersink an 1/8" rivet
in .040.
Option 3. Add 1/8" "cheater" rivets. The 1/8" shank with a 3/32"
head. This can be countersunk without the cutter going all the way
through the .040.
Option 4: Use 1/8 universal head rivets. This is the strongest, but
I am also concerned about looks if one of the above options will be
more than adequate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
| Subject: | RV-3 wing attach |
There are two versions of the -3, the RV-3 and the RV-3A.
The difference is the rear wing spar attach to the fuselage. The
-3A has been beefup up in this area. This was done because there
have been a number of -3 wing failures. I think the problem is
that the rear spar attach pulls out of the fuselage. I know that
there has been at least one failure of a -3A. Since I am building
a -3A and I recently built my rear spars, I called the factory
to discuss this issue. I spoke with Ken Scott who was familiar
with the -3A failure. He said that Van looked at the wreckage.
Van's opinion is that the aircraft was subjected to such a
pull-up that it was hopelessly overstressed. Ken's advice was
to go ahead and build the rear-spar attach exactly as spelled
out in the plans.
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette -FT-~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dual wing jig & hurricane record |
Thanks for the great info on your double wing jig, I'll be
incorporating most all of it. It sounded as though you have thought
through many construction aspects and built the jigs accordingly.Thanks again
Is there anyone from the list planning on attending the Copperstate fly
in this weekend? Perhaps a get together of some sort?
I just talked to Bill
Benedict at Van's and Van has had to cancel his appearance/display flight because
of the crash of Steve Moseby over the weekend. A terrible accident. Van was up
in the RV8
with a friend of Steve's in the rear cockpit for a demo ride with Steve in his
RV3
flying chase. The horsing around evidently got a bit spirited and Steve pulled
too hard and the right wing let go. He spun in and was killed instantly. Bill
remarked that the G-meter had a recorded 8.5-8.75 reading left after the crash.
This reading would generally speaking not be affected by the impact as the loads
are in different directions. Bill said that this was the first time that a right
wing has let go on an RV3. Needless to say, everyone at Van's are extremely upset
but Van in particular, as he and Steve were very good friends. I'm sure everyone
on the list would express our sincere and heartfelt sorrow to Steve's family, and
friends, especially Van.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4
Phoenix, Az.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Setting landing ... |
I would have to agree with Vans ,it does not take much to get the gear out of
alinement. To drill the gear on the right way is a day job and can be done
out of the jig on saw horses. Yoou spend alot of time building don't cheet on
the gear tire can cost alot...George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
>I called Van's with regards to the countersunk 3/32" rivets failing
>on the .040 bottom fuse skin. They suggested putting additional
>rivets between the existing rivets. I am working on the finishing
>kit and would like to address this problem before the A/C is painted.
> Does anyone have any suggestions on which type of rivet will be most
>appropriate (strongest) for this "repair"? ( the skin is already
>rivetted and I do not want to drill out all those rivets)
>
>Option 1: Add 3/32" countersunk rivets between existing rivets.
>
>Option 2: Add 1/8" countersunk rivets and countersink an 1/8" rivet
>in .040.
>
>Option 3. Add 1/8" "cheater" rivets. The 1/8" shank with a 3/32"
>head. This can be countersunk without the cutter going all the way
>through the .040.
>
>Option 4: Use 1/8 universal head rivets. This is the strongest, but
>I am also concerned about looks if one of the above options will be
>more than adequate.
Actually, ther are at least two more options:
Option 5. Use 3/32" universal head rivets in-between existing rivets. Van
doesn't supply these, but they are available.
Option 6. (Actually a mix of option 4 and option 1) Add extra 1/8"
universal rivets along the Firewall/belly pan joint, but just use extra
3/32" c/s rivets along the belly pan stiffeners.
I feel that the option 6 combination may be the best. If you look
at the firewall/belly pan joint, you can see that there is a small angle
existing between the 1/8" Alum. angle and the 0.040 belly pan. This angle
gets greater in the center. As a previous poster pointed out (last year),
the force required to set 3/32 rivets may not be sufficient to distort the
belly pan and close this slight angle to zero. The much greater force
required to set the 1/8 rivets will do a far better job here. Note that a
countersunk 3/32 rivet will be even worse, since the thinner Alum. near the
rivet will tend to distort rather than pull this joint closed.
If this joint is not fully closed, then it can 'work' in flight,
and put extra stress on the belly pan stiffener rivets, making these
'smoke' too. When I riveted my firewall/belly pan joint, I could see some
of this distortion taking place as the joint got pulled to-gether. An
inspection of the flatness of the belly pan at the firewall (or a feeler
guage test) may be informative as to whether your joint has fully pulled
to-gether during riveting.
A single row of 1/8 universal head rivets along the bottom edge of
the firewall will not be very noticeable, and could prevent a lot of
trouble later. Note that I am refering to the aft row of rivets here, not
the forward row that connects to the easily distorted SS firewall material.
Someone please correct me if needed, but I gather that the loose
rivets are mainly in the center of the firewall and the forward portion of
the floor stiffeners, but can spread to include all of these parts when the
condition is worse. The starting in the center of the firewall would tend
to back up the "not pulled to-gether during riveting" theory. On a -6A,
the nosegear may put extra stress on this area, but I believe -6s are also
affected.
.... hoping you can work something out ...
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... lucky that I got the earlier RV-list
discusion on this subject, and used
dimpling and 1/8 rivets at the firewall.
PS I liked Bruce P's earlier comment, only countersink when it's too thick
to dimple.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: oil lines for O320-D1A |
Dan,
George would be glad to help you with this. If you could call after
5:00 pm Eastern time 301-293-1505, he'll talk with you and make certain your
oil system is connected correctly.
Becki Orndorff
>>From the overhaul manual I believe the correct position on the accessory
>cover to connect the line to the oil cooler is just below the breather
>outlet and to the left, it is almost horizontal. Can any one confirm
>this? Does anyone have the part #/supplier of the fitting I need to
>make this connection? (from pipe thread to AN), the opening is really
>in a tight spot. Also it appears the return line is just left of this
>facing rearwards and vertical, I'm assuming the 1/8" set screw is for
>a pressure sensor?
>
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 #3933
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
>>The horsing around evidently got a bit spirited and Steve pulled
>>too hard and the right wing let go. He spun in and was killed instantly. Bill
>>remarked that the G-meter had a recorded 8.5-8.75 reading left after the
crash.
>>This reading would generally speaking not be affected by the impact as the
loads
>>are in different directions.
Could someone please explain the control authority an RV has at a particular
speed. What I mean by that is...
Is it not true that at a particular airspeed you are able to give full
control deflection and not overstress the aircraft. Am I way off on this.
I was under the impression that at 140mph you can pull the stick all the way
back and not exceed a 6G load.
If this is true, then Steve must have been going quit a bit faster to reach
a near 9G load. Could someone please clear this up for me.
Also, I thought 6G was a max with a large safety margin. I was under the
impression these figures represent approx. half the breaking point of a
wing, so 12G is a static breaking point. Is it the drag forces acting on
the wing that change that 12G figure?
I may be pulling these figures out of a hat, could someone please educate me.
-Thanks
My heart goes out to Steve Moseby and his family. Tragic loss.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
In 14 years of the Rvator this is covered in the section on Aerobatics.
The IAC has banned the RV-3 their events because of
numerous wing failures. Vans states the failures were due to improper
rear spar connection, a result of incorrect building technique.
Unfortunately it sounds like the RV-3 that crased over the weekend had
this problem.
I would be interested in knowing more about this from those who know the
facts. I am interested im building an RV-3 when I finish my RV-6.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995 aol.com!RGWELCH(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I read in the October issue of SportPlane that the RV-3 that crashed near HIO
> was the first customer built RV-3 built by Art Chard many years ago. Is
> there some problem with the wing/spar design on early model RV-3s?
>
> Regards,
>
> R.G. Welch
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: What can be done before skinning the RV-6 fusel |
>
> One word of advice: when Van says to "pop rivet" the floors and
> baggage compartment, don't do what I did. I followed the advice of
> another builder (plane flying for 8 years) and installed nutplates for
> the whole shebang. What a royal PITA. The other builder claimed that
> you would be putting the floors/baggage compartments in/out several
> times. I kept a log: it took an additional 37 hours to install all
> the nutplates for the floors and baggage areas. Countersinking the
> floors that are beneath other pieces, adding reinforcing strips to the
> thin bulkhead material to accept countersunk screws, ... all took
> time. Van is right! Don't mess with it :-)
I did the nutplate thing on my RV6 and don't feel it was that bad a deal.
1. I didn't countersink. The pop rivets are not countersunk, so I will
use AN525 "washer head screws" that will stick up about the same height.
The whole area is either carpeted or cushioned anyway.
2. Buy a #8 nutplate jig for easier hole alignment.
3. Use the "reduced head 3/32 countersunk rivets" from Avery. No
reinforcing strips or anything else needed. Just countersink the 0.025
material and squeeze. They seem to squeeze easier than normal rivets. This
is the one exception I make to my "dimple everything possible" rule.
I haven't kept track of my hours, but I am not a fast builder :^(
I estimate it only has taken about 4 to 5 hours extra. I now have much
more selection in final wire routing and antenna placement. The only thing
that bugs me is that the new Whelen strobe power supply won't fit between
the RV-6 seat webs because this now seems like an ideal mounting location
:^(
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... I did have to buy extra nutplates
and bolts though ...
>
> Mike Pilla
> pilla(at)espinc.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Copperstate and RV-3 Crash |
I will be at Copperstae on Sat, weather permitting, I'll be flying a
orange and white 172 N40204.
Reference the RV-3 wing failure. If the plane was designed for +-6Gs
then the failure should occur at 9Gs. I don't know if 8.5-8.75 is close
enough. Cheryl Sanchez states that Van still recommends building as
designed. As many -3 wings that have departed in flight, If I were
building an RV-3, whick I hope to do, I would like to see a redesign of
this area. I only wonder how strong this area is on the -6. I haven't
heard of anyone doing any hard core aerobatics with the -6 that might put
the same stress on the wings that the RV-3 has experienced.
I deeply regret that this happened and offer condolences to family and
friends.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Mike Fredette -FT-~ wrote:
> Is there anyone from the list planning on attending the Copperstate
fly
> in this weekend? Perhaps a get together of some sort?
>
>
> remarked that the G-meter had a recorded 8.5-8.75 reading left after the crash.
> This reading would generally speaking not be affected by the impact as the loads
> are in different directions. Bill said that this was the first time that a right
> wing has let go on an RV3. Needless to say, everyone at Van's are extremely upset
>
> Rgds
> Mike Fredette
> RV4
> Phoenix, Az.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
It looks like I may be buying my dads Bushby Mustang II. It needs a new
prop and I looking for any sage advice from the guys that are flying.
Specificaly I'm looking for information on what's a good prop these days and
what the cost will be. I would like to go with something other than wood
(composit, aluminum?).
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Newsletter reply |
To all listers:
Sorry for the confusion lately about my newsletter. I have gotten several
requests for information about the newsletter and tried to respond to them
addressed only to the individuals who asked the questions. Somehow, I ended
up getting some of the responses posted to the list by mistake. For the last
time (I hope) here is the information about the newsletter and how to get it.
Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter is a quarterly eight page
newsletter that is dedicated to helping RV builders build their planes better
and easier, while avoiding the dumb mistakes that I and others have made.
There is not a lot of news type items because of the quarterly publication
schedule, but I do put in items that are timely. I ask for a donation of
$5.00 for a years subscription and midyear subscribers get all back issues
for the year. I still have a few 1995 back issues for those who would like
them. The current issue was just sent out at the beginning of October. The
next issue is due out in January. If you would like the 1995 issues, or a
subscription for 1996 or both, please send your donation to Van's Air Force,
422 Savannah Ridge Drive, St. Charles, MO 63303-2921. My phone number is
(314) 928-8703, FAX (314) 447-8803, E-Mail jamescone(at)aol.com. After I get as
many subscribers as I think that I am going to get for 1996, I will publish a
list of Midwest RV builders sorted by zipcode so that you can find other
builders near you. If you would like a copy of the list, please add a buck
to your donation.
I hope that this answers the questions that I have been getting and won't
take up any more space on the list.
Jim Cone, Editor
Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing
RV-6A Working on finishing kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
Does anyone have any info on an RV-4 accident in Colorado and an rv-6 accident
over the weekend?
Thanks John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette -FT-~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Extreme G-Loads |
The general formula used to calculate load limits is to establish
the ultimate yield point, and then reduce it such that the new load limit
has a 50% safety margin built in. The RV series as currently designed, are
stressed for +6 and -4 G. This being the load limit for "everyday" usage,
the ultimate load strength ie. failure mode is +9 and -6 G. Which is as
Van intended. They are not unlimited aerobatic type aircraft. Design menuevering
speed, Vn, is the speed at which full control deflections will not over-stress
the airframe. The RV series are similar to Bonanzas in that they are very
aerodynamicly clean designs, which build speed VERY quickly in a dive, particularly
if full or nearly full power is being used. My A-35 could go from 150 kts in cruise
right up to it's 212 kt redline in aprox 5-8 seconds with only 15 degrees
negative pitch down and full power being held. I flew with Kefton Black "Blackie"
in his RV4 a few months ago in Scappoose and the same phenomenon held. During a
split S, which was started at an entry speed of about 65-70 mph, we exited the
bottom at approx 170 mph pulling 4.5 G, with power OFF! It is easy to see how
extremely high speeds can develope during aerobatics, speeds which can have disasterous
consequences. The amount of load developed for any given control deflection varies
with airspeed, and since RV's are comparatively light on the controls, it doesn't
take a particularly hard tug to get large G loads at high airspeeds. At this time
it's not fair to speculate on the cause of the crash in question, be it pilot
error, structural failure, a combination of both, or something else entirly. I
was just
passing on what Bill Benedict related to me regarding the details as he knew them
so far. Much has yet to be determined I'm sure, and pointing the finger at the
aircraft design is probably naive at this point. All we can do is try and learn
from
these terrible events and do what is needed to prevent their recurrence.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Extreme G-Loads |
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995 sday(at)pharmcomp.com wrote:
> Is it not true that at a particular airspeed you are able to give full
> control deflection and not overstress the aircraft. Am I way off on this.
> I was under the impression that at 140mph you can pull the stick all the way
> back and not exceed a 6G load.
True. It's called Va or maneuvering speed. I'm not sure what Va is for an
RV-3 but 140 mph sounds reasonable. As long as Va is not exceeded, then
maximum full up elevator should cause the wing to stall, and unload,
before the load limit of 6 Gs is reached.
> If this is true, then Steve must have been going quit a bit faster to reach
> a near 9G load. Could someone please clear this up for me.
Yes, at speeds higher than Va RVs have more than enough control authority
to rip the wings off. It's up to the pilot to be careful. This
unfortunate fact is true of most aircraft, but RVs in particular have
plenty of control authority (for aerobatics) and thus extra caution is
required.
> Also, I thought 6G was a max with a large safety margin. I was under the
> impression these figures represent approx. half the breaking point of a
> wing, so 12G is a static breaking point. Is it the drag forces acting on
> the wing that change that 12G figure?
Modern aircraft design usually uses a safety margin of 50%, so for a 6 G
load limit, you would design for 9 Gs. Note however, that this safety
margin does NOT mean all RVs are rated for 9 Gs! That 3 G safety margin
is to allow for errors in manufacture, so that even a rather sloppily
built aircraft will handle 6 Gs without failure. You should never subject
the aircraft to more than 6 Gs for any reason, unless you like playing
russian roulette. (note: the 6/9 G limits are for an RV-6, but I think
the RV-3 is designed to the same limits)
Interestingly enough, aircraft used to be designed with a 100% safety
margin up to around WW2 or so. One of the first aircraft to go with a 50%
margin was the A6M2 Zero, an aircraft notable for it's light weight (and
fragility).
> My heart goes out to Steve Moseby and his family.
Mine too.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- Prop? |
RE>RV-List: Prop? 10/10/95 2:51 PM
My brother-in-law builds props.
call em up.
name's Keith Ditmars of Pacesetter Propellor Works.
(503) 628-2797
I know he has built props for that airplane... tell em you know me and you will
get 'special treatment'
Doug.
--------------------------------------
Date: 10/10/95 2:47 PM
From: rv-list(at)matronics.COM
It looks like I may be buying my dads Bushby Mustang II. It needs a new
prop and I looking for any sage advice from the guys that are flying.
Specificaly I'm looking for information on what's a good prop these days and
what the cost will be. I would like to go with something other than wood
(composit, aluminum?).
Chris
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:39:13 -0700
From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.COM>
Subject: RV-List: Prop?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Setting landing gear -6A |
Personal opinion; (as builder & flyer RV6A...560+hrs), do it like the
designer suggests or,
NOW, SUDDENLY, YOU....are the designer. You are off in the unknown; the
first ever of a kind, believe called ONE OFF.
So, the designer may not be perfect but he's a long way ahead of any of the
rest of us,
non-designer types.
My opinion only, M E Soward N63Tx
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Re: Setting landing ... |
George,
Could you explain your proceedure? I have not heard of doing this
after the plane is out of the jig. Do you rivet the bellypan on
first??
Thanks
Ross
I would have to agree with Vans ,it does not take much to get the gear
out of
alinement. To drill the gear on the right way is a day job and can be
done
out of the jig on saw horses. Yoou spend alot of time building don't
cheet on
the gear tire can cost alot...George
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Newsletter reply |
To all listers:
Sorry for the confusion lately about my newsletter. I have gotten several
requests for information about the newsletter and tried to respond to them
addressed only to the individuals who asked the questions. Somehow, I ended
up getting some of the responses posted to the list by mistake. For the last
time (I hope) here is the information about the newsletter and how to get it.
Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter is a quarterly eight page
newsletter that is dedicated to helping RV builders build their planes better
and easier, while avoiding the dumb mistakes that I and others have made.
There is not a lot of news type items because of the quarterly publication
schedule, but I do put in items that are timely. I ask for a donation of
$5.00 for a years subscription and midyear subscribers get all back issues
for the year. I still have a few 1995 back issues for those who would like
them. The current issue was just sent out at the beginning of October. The
next issue is due out in January. If you would like the 1995 issues, or a
subscription for 1996 or both, please send your donation to Van's Air Force,
422 Savannah Ridge Drive, St. Charles, MO 63303-2921. My phone number is
(314) 928-8703, FAX (314) 447-8803, E-Mail jamescone(at)aol.com. After I get as
many subscribers as I think that I am going to get for 1996, I will publish a
list of Midwest RV builders sorted by zipcode so that you can find other
builders near you. If you would like a copy of the list, please add a buck
to your donation.
I hope that this answers the questions that I have been getting and won't
take up any more space on the list.
Jim Cone, Editor
Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing
RV-6A Working on finishing kit.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | dual wing jig & hurricane record |
Text item:
JUST TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT, IT'S STEVE MOSELEY. ONE OF THE MOST GENEROUS
GUYS I'VE KNOWN. FLIGHT SURGEON FOR THE AIR GUARD HERE IN PORTLAND, A COLONEL
I
THINK. AN ALL AROUND INTERESTING PERSON WITH A ZEST FOR LIFE. DEFINITELY
LEAVES A SICK FEELING IN YOUR STOMACH AT THIS LOSS.
Thanks for the great info on your double wing jig, I'll be
incorporating most all of it. It sounded as though you have thought
through many construction aspects and built the jigs accordingly.Thanks again
Is there anyone from the list planning on attending the Copperstate fly
in this weekend? Perhaps a get together of some sort?
I just talked to Bill
Benedict at Van's and Van has had to cancel his appearance/display
flight because
of the crash of Steve Moseby over the weekend. A terrible accident.
Van was up in the RV8
with a friend of Steve's in the rear cockpit for a demo ride with
Steve in his RV3
flying chase. The horsing around evidently got a bit spirited and Steve pulled
too hard and the right wing let go. He spun in and was killed instantly. Bill
remarked that the G-meter had a recorded 8.5-8.75 reading left after the crash.
This reading would generally speaking not be affected by the impact
as the loads
are in different directions. Bill said that this was the first time
that a right
wing has let go on an RV3. Needless to say, everyone at Van's are
extremely upset
but Van in particular, as he and Steve were very good friends. I'm
sure everyone
on the list would express our sincere and heartfelt sorrow to Steve's
family, and
friends, especially Van.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
RV4
Phoenix, Az.
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
7, 95 12:52:27 pm
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:42:09 +22305823 (MST)
Subject: Re: RV-List: dual wing jig & hurricane record
From: Mike Fredette -FT-~ <sedona.intel.com!mfredett(at)matronics.com>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gasobek(at)CCGATE.HAC.COM |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
Question:
Is this an actual problem that is acknowledged by VAN or is this the
cause of poor workmanship?
The local DAR says that most homebuilders do not set their rivets
properly. (under set rivet) I have also observed this problem with
students in A&P sheet metal classes of not setting rivets properly
(1.5 dia).
Of the 4 local flying RV-6's, none have experienced this problem. I
hope that this is not another tail wagging problem. <:^)
Gary A. Sobek RV-6 20480 N157GS
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: Belly Skin Rivets
Date: 10/10/95 2:50 PM
I called Van's with regards to the countersunk 3/32" rivets failing
on the .040 bottom fuse skin. They suggested putting additional
rivets between the existing rivets. I am working on the finishing
kit and would like to address this problem before the A/C is painted.
Does anyone have any suggestions on which type of rivet will be most
appropriate (strongest) for this "repair"? ( the skin is already
rivetted and I do not want to drill out all those rivets)
Option 1: Add 3/32" countersunk rivets between existing rivets.
Option 2: Add 1/8" countersunk rivets and countersink an 1/8" rivet
in .040.
Option 3. Add 1/8" "cheater" rivets. The 1/8" shank with a 3/32"
head. This can be countersunk without the cutter going all the way
through the .040.
Option 4: Use 1/8 universal head rivets. This is the strongest, but
I am also concerned about looks if one of the above options will be
more than adequate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Overspeed over stress |
I've thought about this before upon hearing how RVs are not suitable for
certain kinds of aerobatics because they are so clean.
Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
And does anyone know where I can get the dive siren from a Stuka. :-)
(Why did they have those anyway?)
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Extreme G-Loads |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
> Is it not true that at a particular airspeed you are able to give full
> control deflection and not overstress the aircraft. Am I way off on this.
> I was under the impression that at 140mph you can pull the stick all the way
> back and not exceed a 6G load.
Below Va, the aircraft will stall before it exceeds its load factor
limit. Va is is a function of the aircraft's unaccelerated (1 G)
stall speed and the load factor limit. It is equal to the square root
of the load factor limit times the unaccelerated stall speed. Hence if an
airplane stalls at 1 G and 50 mph, its stall speed at 6 G is:
sqrt(6) * 50 mph =
2.45 * 50 mph =
122.5 mph
If the airplane's load factor limit is 6 G, then 122.5 will be its
Va. If its load factor limit is say 9 G, then it will still achieve
a 6 G stall at 122.5 mph but its Va will now be 150 mph
(sqrt(9) * 50 mph). In either case, if you try to pull 6 G at any
speed less than 122.5 mph, you won't be able to do it -- you'll stall
first.
For an aircraft to achive a 6 G stall at 140 mph, its 1 G stall speed
would be about 57 mph as follows:
(sqrt(6) * 57 mph = 139.6)
57 is probably pretty close to the clean 1 G stall speed of an RV-3 so
your 140 mph figure is pretty close.
Alternatively, to pull 8.75 G in an airplane with a 57 mph stall speed
would reguire at least sqrt(8.75) * 57 = 168 mph! Similar to the example
above, below 168 mph, it would be impossible to pull 8.75 G -- you'll stall
first.
I assure you, 168 mph is very easy to achive in an RV-3.
This is reason than airplanes like the Beech Bonanza and the Piper
Malibu frequently lose large and important parts in the hands of
ham-fisted pilots. They have relatively low stall speeds and fairly
high cruising speeds. The lower the stall speed and the higher
the cruising speed (and the lighter the controls), the more likely
someone is to inadvertantly part with wings and/or tail :-(
Also keep in mind that stall speed varies with gross weight. The
lighter the weight, the lower the stall speed and the lower the
Va. Or looking at it another way, if the airplane is light, it will
accelerate even harder at any given speed with any given control
deflection hence pulling more G than if it were heavier. It will
be capable of realizing its load factor limit before stalling
at a lower speed than if it were heavier.
All of the above arguments assume enough elevator control authority
to establish a stall angle of attack. That's certainly the case
with RVs.
Cal RV-6 N66VR under construction
P.S. If Dave Hyde or other professional (or armchair) aerodynamicist
wants to jump in to add/clarify/correct please feel free.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander) (by way of gil(at)rassp.hac.com |
(Gil Alexander))
| Subject: | Wing fitting -- repeated |
Ross M.
.... repost of my Feb. 1995 message. I did fit the wings on out
of the jig. There seemed to be no extra problems caused by doing it this
way (except for waiting for the S. Calif. floods to end :^) ). Hope it
helps some of the newer members to the RV-list.
Not mentioned below is the fact I did it on two sawhorses (2x6
cross members) in the driveway since the jig was against a garage wall.
The saw horses were leveled in both directions, with one across the cockpit
rails, and one across longerons at the tail. The two bottom skins under
the wing and the belly pan were not in place during the fitting. After I
was done, I refitted the fuselage on the jig (much easier than I expected)
and riveted on the two lower skins and the belly pan.
The two sawhorses got shorter legs, and one was halved in length,
and they now support the fuselage right way up, one at the firewall and on
at the tail.
... Gil Alexander
***** message from Feb. 1995 *****
Dave Barnhart said ***
"BTW, for those on this list who may be just trying to decide whether
or not they want to build an RV: There is this almost indescribable
exhilaration when you mount two independantly-constructed assemblies
together (like the elevator and horizontal stab), and they FIT!"
Well, I mated my wings and the fuselage for the -6A main gear
support drilling yesterday, and I fully agree (even more exciting with three
major independantly-constructed assemblies!!). Lots of help is needed,
and 7 local RV builders turned up in two shifts, working from 10:00am to
5:00pm.
Ken Scott's admonition "if something doesn't look right, it
probably isn't" is very true, and one wing went on and off 5 times clearing
up one minor interference at a time. Even a slight touching of the top of
the spar against the fuselage skin was enough to make it look as if one
wing was built with more incidence than the other. When all these minor
fit problems were fixed, then the rear spar fittings lined up identically
on each side.
The new pre-drilled gear legs make fitting the gear mounts
relatively easy, taking a lot of degrees of freedom out of the problem. I
didn't even use the angle iron to connect the axles, since there is no way
the toe-in can be adjusted. I just set the height of the axles above
(below?) the wing, and the axle distance aft from the spar face. with
clamps and enough hands, this was easy to set. A check with my SmartLevel
showed both axles to have the camber within 0.2 degrees of each other. I
had a #12 transfer punch bought from Boeing Surplus, and found this was an
ideal way of getting accurate holes. I transfer punched from the aft side
into the mount, removed the mount, punched again with an automatic center
punch, drilled # 50, drilled 3/16 with a Black and Decker "Bullet" drill,
and then reamed to #12. This seemed to give good holes.
I used a two diagonal holes, check, opposite diagonal holes, check,
then mark the rest of the holes, methodology. This means taking the gear
leg on and off many times, and all the helpers really made this easy.
A few things I found:
1. The rear spar fuselage cross brace is shipped oversize, and needs to be
trimmed in place to prevent the wings being forced into a 'sweep forward'
condition. When everything is just right, the aft spar fittings just rest
loosely in place.
2. A letter "D" drill is a tight fit for a AN4 bolt. Letter "D" is 0.246,
and AN4 is from 0.0246 to 0.249, my bolts measured on the high end.
Perhaps a slightly larger reamer is in order here.
3. Lots of help is good, other RV builders are interested in this step.
Two builders called back to ask if they could bring other builders.
4. I had to drop (as it sits up-side down) the outer edge of the left gear
mount a 1/16 inch to ensure equal camber, and get good bolt clearance on
the inner-most AN4 bolts.
5. The pre-drilled gear legs are wonderful.
6. The 1/16 'spacer' on the top side of the gear support (it compensates
for the thickness of the foward flange of the bulkhead for the outer 3 AN3
holes) was too short, and one punch-mark landed right on the edge of the
spacer. I still need to resolve what to do with this hole.
*** Oct 95 note ***
Per the factory, I ground away one layer of steel at this 'step',
and then drilled the hole. I will need a 1/16 spacer here during final
assembly. Small manufacturing tolerance problem.
*** end note ***
7. The fuselage skin needs some relief notches for the innermost spar
rivets. See revision R4 on the spar assembly drawing.
A QUESTION FOR -6A GUYS ONLY...
Access to the nuts for the bolts that attach the gear mounts on is
difficult. Suggestions include tack-welding nuts on, or floating nut
plates. Anyone else have any ideas, or know of any alternative methods to
plain nuts that have been implemented by other builders???
*** Oct 95 note ***
No good answers to this question yet, but I am leaning towards
making up some Alum. strips with floating nutplates attached. Some
builders have complained how long it took to get all of the nuts in place
(and get the wrench in) during final assembly with all of the fuel lines,
etc. in the way.
*** end note ***
keep on building .....
Gil Alexander ... ready for the bottom fuselage skins
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rfrawley(at)cisco.com |
| Subject: | Re: Extreme G-Loads |
>HI,
The other factor is that most pilots (without Gsuits) will black out (even
momentarily) when approaching 4 - 5G's with some humans it can be as low
as low as 3G. The effect of G's on sensory abilities (such as vision) and
reaction times is well known but I think underestimated by many pilots.
Aerobatics should be approached with extreme caution and training with an
experianced instructor is absolutly crucial..
The general formula used to calculate load limits is to establish
>the ultimate yield point, and then reduce it such that the new load limit
>has a 50% safety margin built in. The RV series as currently designed, are
>stressed for +6 and -4 G. This being the load limit for "everyday" usage,
>the ultimate load strength ie. failure mode is +9 and -6 G. Which is as
>Van intended. They are not unlimited aerobatic type aircraft. Design
>menuevering
>speed, Vn, is the speed at which full control deflections will not over-stress
>the airframe. The RV series are similar to Bonanzas in that they are very
>aerodynamicly clean designs, which build speed VERY quickly in a dive,
>particularly
>if full or nearly full power is being used. My A-35 could go from 150 kts
>in cruise
>right up to it's 212 kt redline in aprox 5-8 seconds with only 15 degrees
>negative pitch down and full power being held. I flew with Kefton Black
>"Blackie"
>in his RV4 a few months ago in Scappoose and the same phenomenon held.
>During a
>split S, which was started at an entry speed of about 65-70 mph, we exited the
>bottom at approx 170 mph pulling 4.5 G, with power OFF! It is easy to see how
>extremely high speeds can develope during aerobatics, speeds which can
>have disasterous
>consequences. The amount of load developed for any given control
>deflection varies
>with airspeed, and since RV's are comparatively light on the controls, it
>doesn't
>take a particularly hard tug to get large G loads at high airspeeds. At
>this time
>it's not fair to speculate on the cause of the crash in question, be it pilot
>error, structural failure, a combination of both, or something else
>entirly. I was just
>passing on what Bill Benedict related to me regarding the details as he
>knew them
>so far. Much has yet to be determined I'm sure, and pointing the finger at the
>aircraft design is probably naive at this point. All we can do is try and
>learn from
>these terrible events and do what is needed to prevent their recurrence.
>
>Rgds
>Mike Fredette
Regards
Richard Frawley
Cisco Systems Australia
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Frawley | |
| Mgr, Strategic Opportunities | || || * * * |
| Phone: 61-2-935-4123 | || || - * | | | * - |
| Mobile: 61-18-260-594 | |||| |||| |o|*| | | | |*|o| |
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Pager on 61-2-430-6381...leave a message with your number to call..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Belly Skin Rivets |
>
> Question:
> Is this [smoking belly skin rivets] an actual problem that is
> acknowledged by VAN or is this the
> cause of poor workmanship?
>
>From what I've heard Van and Art think it's a workmanship issue, so the
plans stay the same, although others at Vans feel differently.
It would seem to me that there are all sorts possible factors that
could apply -- vibration from different prop/hp combinations, or even
how well the engine is balanced. But the bottom line is that there is
the potential for a lot of stress in that area, and I for one can't see
any reason not to dimple and install 1/8" rivets there, especially when
there is good evidence that it might be needed.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: dual wing jig & hurricane record |
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Mike Fredette -FT-~ wrote:
> Is there anyone from the list planning on attending the Copperstate
fly
> in this weekend? Perhaps a get together of some sort?
Well, I will be there. Thursday and Friday mornings I will be a tour
guide for the busloads of elementary school kids. I volunteered for
parking lot duty Sat and SUnday. The local RV-builder's Group (organized
by Marv and Maxine Horne) have a table set aside at the Spaghetti dinner
Friday evening.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rob.acker(at)greatesc.com (Rob Acker) |
NM>Reference the RV-3 wing failure. If the plane was designed for +-6Gs
NM>then the failure should occur at 9Gs. I don't know if 8.5-8.75 is close
NM>enough. Cheryl Sanchez states that Van still recommends building as
First off, my condolences to family and friends. Having lost my brother
earlier this year and a flight instructor four years ago...I can
sympathize with their loss.
According to my RV-4 plans, the structure is designed to withstand 6Gs
indefinitely. At 9gs, only *THREE SECONDS* before deformation/failure.
I suspect 8.75Gs for longer than those three seconds may result in
failure (don't know for sure, I am *not* an engineer).
Rob.
* SLMR 2.1a *
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: dual wing jig & hurricane record |
>> Is there anyone from the list planning on attending the Copperstate
fly
>> in this weekend? Perhaps a get together of some sort?
>
>
I'm on my way there tomorrow... see ya there.
Jim Campbell
US Aviator magazine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | The Last Word On Pneumatic Squeezers |
Folks -- I have just spent the last hour (with no success) going through the
RV-LIST archives trying to find the definitive statement on pneumatic
squeezers -- I think I'm missing a couple of critical weeks of postings.
It's a pretty simple question;
Are the 3000 lb. squeezers sold by Avery,
Cleaveland and CP powerful enough to squeeze the "infamous big rivets" on the
spar?
I had a chance to use one of these beasties at Van's Builders'
Clinic, and figure it might just be the secret weapon for RV builders. Lots
of uses, and not THAT much more expensive than a good hand squeezer (a
rationalization, I know).
A couple of additional questions for extra
credit; I've got the Chicago Pneumatic "Air Tools For The Aerospace Industry"
catalogue in front of me, and on pg. 32, and the quoted part number is
CP-0214-CELEL...can anyone confirm that I've got the right thing here?
Finally (whew!), does anybody know if the yokes on the the CP unit are
interchangable with those sold by Avery and others?
I'm doing my best to
give a local supplier some business, but he knows precious little about what
he is selling. Thanx for you help, folks!
Cheers...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Setting Up Shop, In Receipt of Emp Kit, Builders' Clinic Alumnus"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspeed over stress |
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 16:12:55 -0800
> From: Richard Chandler <Claris.COM!mauser(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Overspeed over stress
> Reply-to: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> I've thought about this before upon hearing how RVs are not suitable for
> certain kinds of aerobatics because they are so clean.
>
> Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
>
> And does anyone know where I can get the dive siren from a Stuka. :-)
> (Why did they have those anyway?)
To strike terror into the ground troops they were
about to strafe. The noise was a hellish wail, (my
father-in-law was a tank driver in WWII and said
the noise was unbelievable).
Mark
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Project Manager 65 Iber Rd. *
* Defence Systems Stittsville, Ont *
* VOX 613-831-0888 K2S 1E7 *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - 1506 *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: The Last Word On Pneumatic Squeezers |
Terry,
Van's rents a pneumatic squeezer by the week that is capable of doing
the spar rivets. You should be able to set the rivets in both spars in an
afternoon. The other squeezers you mention haven't enough umph to do the
spar rivets.
The other method that works quite well is to use the Avery rivet-dimple
tool and a no-bounce hammer. With a 3 pound hammer, it should take about
5-6 hits per rivet. You probably have this tool anyway so there is no extra
expense.
The pneumatic squeezers you mention are useful for setting 1/8" rivets
in structural pieces and squeeze much easier than the manual version.
>Folks -- I have just spent the last hour (with no success) going through the
>RV-LIST archives trying to find the definitive statement on pneumatic
>squeezers -- I think I'm missing a couple of critical weeks of postings.
>It's a pretty simple question;
>
>Are the 3000 lb. squeezers sold by Avery,
>Cleaveland and CP powerful enough to squeeze the "infamous big rivets" on the
>spar?
>
>I had a chance to use one of these beasties at Van's Builders'
>Clinic, and figure it might just be the secret weapon for RV builders. Lots
>of uses, and not THAT much more expensive than a good hand squeezer (a
>rationalization, I know).
>
>A couple of additional questions for extra
>credit; I've got the Chicago Pneumatic "Air Tools For The Aerospace Industry"
>catalogue in front of me, and on pg. 32, and the quoted part number is
>CP-0214-CELEL...can anyone confirm that I've got the right thing here?
>Finally (whew!), does anybody know if the yokes on the the CP unit are
>interchangable with those sold by Avery and others?
>
>I'm doing my best to
>give a local supplier some business, but he knows precious little about what
>he is selling. Thanx for you help, folks!
>
>Cheers...
>
>Terry in Calgary
>
>S/N 24414
>"Setting Up Shop, In Receipt of Emp Kit, Builders' Clinic Alumnus"
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Setting lan... |
you need to leave the bottem forward skin off as well as the next skins back.
level the plane on swa horses and follow the instructions in the book. we
cover this in the fuselage tapes from start to finish......george
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | G-loads (chatter , bordering on diatribe) |
A few thoughts on the g-load and overstress thread...
[edited for brevity, not content]
Richard Chandler wrote:
>I've thought about this before upon hearing how RVs are
>not suitable for certain kinds of aerobatics because they
>are so clean.
I've heard the 'cleanliness' makes them relatively _unforgiving_
in some types of aerobatics (prolonged nose-low maneuvers), but I hadn't heard
_unsuitable_. I thought that applied more to abrupt maneuvers like snaps and
tailslides, which are relatively insensitive to drag, more to structural loads.
>Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
Hoo boy, a whole new can of worms regarding mounting, actuation, wing
stresses, etc. How 'bout teaching speed control and entry speeds to
prospective aerobats?
Cal Brabandt wrote:
>Va is is a function of the aircraft's unaccelerated (1 G)
>stall speed and the load factor limit. It is equal to
>the square root of the load factor limit times the
>unaccelerated stall speed.
All other things being equal this is true. Note that this refers to
_true_ airspeed.
>All of the above arguments assume enough elevator control authority
>to establish a stall angle of attack. That's certainly the case
>with RVs.
Agreed. What I don't understand is how/why someone would put this type of
load on an airplane, intentionally or otherwise, under 'normal' conditions.
It'd require a pretty healthy pull to get that kind of g on the airplane, and
you'd feel it coming, at least for a moment. The Bonanza/Malibu progression
I've always hear (which immediately becomes suspect) is the
IMC/disoriented/accelerate/see ground/panic pull. This doesn't sound like the
case in the RV-3A, from what I've heard. I don't think I'll speculate on what
happened in this case.
Richard Frawley wrote:
>The other factor is that most pilots (without Gsuits) will black out (even
>momentarily) when approaching 4 - 5G's...
This is EXTREMELY dependent on physiology. Unlimited pilots often see as high
as 10g (!!!) momentarily. You can train for g-tolerence without even flying,
and short, fat, smoking pilots with high blood pressure tend to have higher
tolerence than tall, skinny, marathon runners.
General rule of thumb is that a g-suit only adds about 1-g to your tolerance.
GLOC doesn't (usually?) result in structural failure, although a failure may
induce GLOC.
>Aerobatics should be approached with extreme caution and training with an
>experianced instructor is absolutly crucial..
ABSOLUTELY!
Finally out of breath...
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
Since I wasn't a witness to the tragic -3 mishap I'll refrain from
speculation.
Two comments.
First, earlier in the thread someone made the comment that GLOC (G
induced loss of con.) would happen at 3-5 G's. A G suit will only add
1 G to an individuals personal limit. It would be quite easy I suspect
to load up an RV type airframe well beyond 9 G's long before even graying out.
Second, A wing departure would be extremely violent and by it self
might be fatal, are folks using parachutes for Acro?
I've never been upside down without one...
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
I have read with interest the various notes on the Low stall and manuevering
speed of the RVs. The discussion seems to have centered around the potential
to over stress an RV.
What is puzzling is the fact that the discussion appears to apply to all RVs
approximately equally. Yet, we only see structural failures in the RV3.
Since the design is almost identical, you would think that we would see a
similar number of failures in 4s and 6s. Yet, to the best of my knowledge,
there haven't been any.
Does anyone who has flown both/all the models have any comments on the
differences? Is the RV3 just easier to over G for some reason? There must
be some difference/explanation......
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: The Last Word On Pneumatic Squeezers |
Though I can't answer any of Terry's questions about pneumatic squeezers,
there is one thing I discovered in the past week that I wanted to pass
along. ABout a week ago I bought Avery's 'Longeron Yoke'. (Planning
ahead, I'll be ordering the fuselage kit in another month.) I've
discovered that it is useful for far more than just longerons. The
unique design of that yoke lets be get the squeezer into places I could
not before.
If you are working with material that has a flange (like a rib), the
normal squeezer allows you to get on the rivet only one way (The body of
the squeezer must be on the side of the material where the flange is).
With the Longeron Yoke, you can orient the squeezer either way.
In fact, I've found this yoke so useful that I'm leaving on the squeezer.
If you are going to buy a pneumatic squeezer from Avery, and are
wondering which yoke to get, buy the longeron yoke. It has the same
reach as the standard 2-1/2 inch yoke, but is a lot more useful.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
skinning the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: G-loads (chatter) |
>
> Agreed. What I don't understand is how/why someone would put this type of
> load on an airplane, intentionally or otherwise, under 'normal' conditions.
>
> Finally out of breath...
> Dave Hyde
> nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
>
>
I have often woundered about this myself. My guess is it's something
like why somebody would fly their airplane until it is out of fuel. People
tend to get complacent after doing something a long time. I'm sure I'm not
alone when I say that I have done things in an airplane that I later
(or as it happens) think was _very_ stupid. I think it's just part of being
human. We as pilots must try to overcome it even more that those that never
take to the sky.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | The Last Word On Pneumatic Squeezers (fwd) |
The CP-214 is the one you want. Yes, the yokes made by Avery fit the
CP 214, it says so in their catalog. I just got one of the Avery yokes
yesterday (one without a hole in the bottom that is tapered so you can
rivet into the tight V at the end of the control surfaces) and
it bolted right into my CP 214 squeezer.
This squeezer is NOT large enough to do the Spar rivets, as others have
noted. But it sure is nice for everything else.
Herman
> From root Wed Oct 11 00:11:27 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 04:10:25 UT
> From: "Terence Gannon" <msn.com!Terence_Gannon(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id:
> To: "'RV-LIST'"
> Subject: RV-List: The Last Word On Pneumatic Squeezers
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Folks -- I have just spent the last hour (with no success) going through the
> RV-LIST archives trying to find the definitive statement on pneumatic
> squeezers -- I think I'm missing a couple of critical weeks of postings.
> It's a pretty simple question;
>
> Are the 3000 lb. squeezers sold by Avery,
> Cleaveland and CP powerful enough to squeeze the "infamous big rivets" on the
> spar?
>
> I had a chance to use one of these beasties at Van's Builders'
> Clinic, and figure it might just be the secret weapon for RV builders. Lots
> of uses, and not THAT much more expensive than a good hand squeezer (a
> rationalization, I know).
>
> A couple of additional questions for extra
> credit; I've got the Chicago Pneumatic "Air Tools For The Aerospace Industry"
> catalogue in front of me, and on pg. 32, and the quoted part number is
> CP-0214-CELEL...can anyone confirm that I've got the right thing here?
> Finally (whew!), does anybody know if the yokes on the the CP unit are
> interchangable with those sold by Avery and others?
>
> I'm doing my best to
> give a local supplier some business, but he knows precious little about what
> he is selling. Thanx for you help, folks!
>
> Cheers...
>
> Terry in Calgary
>
> S/N 24414
> "Setting Up Shop, In Receipt of Emp Kit, Builders' Clinic Alumnus"
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: High G-loads |
>I have read with interest the various notes on the Low stall and manuevering
>speed of the RVs. The discussion seems to have centered around the potential
>to over stress an RV.
>
>What is puzzling is the fact that the discussion appears to apply to all RVs
>approximately equally. Yet, we only see structural failures in the RV3.
>Since the design is almost identical, you would think that we would see a
>similar number of failures in 4s and 6s. Yet, to the best of my knowledge,
>there haven't been any.
>
>Does anyone who has flown both/all the models have any comments on the
>differences? Is the RV3 just easier to over G for some reason? There must
>be some difference/explanation......
>
Only a guess:
Probably one contributing factor is a higher % of pilots who own RV-3's are
performing aerobatic maneuvers than in a 6 or 4. I could be way off on
this, but I know many RV-4/6 pilots who own the plane just for the pleasure
of it's everyday flying qualities and have no interest in high-G manuevers
performing only an occational aileron roll. It seems to me that many RV-3
pilots are ex-(professional) pilots looking to own a personal craft that
reminds them of either the old days in the jets, or takes them a step beyond
ferrying passengers around the world.
Like I said, just my opinion. (and saying this is only 1 possible contributor)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
If one wing lets go in a high G manuver, there will be an incredible
'snap' type of roll. This would likely knock you out as it hits
your head against the side of the fuselage or canopy. This is a reason
to wear a helmet when doing acro. The parachute is not of any use
if you are knocked out.
This type of accident would be hard to bail out of in any case however.
Regarding the GLOCK discussion, your body can take very high G loads
for a very short time without much problem. The longer duration G loads
are the hardest to handle. For example, one quite simple manuver that
can give experienced acro pilots gray out is to do an inside loop
but start it from the top. You roll inverted and then pull to do the
loop down and you end the loop back on top (still inverted).
The whole bottom half of the loop you can be pulling 4 or more G's.
This can typically cause some grey out.
Compare this to a normal loop, you pull hard to start the loop for 1/4
of the loop, but then you get to relax and float over the top. Then you have
a hard pull at the last 1/4 of the loop at the bottom. So, in a normal
loop you only pull the G's for no more than a 1/4 of the loop whereas
in the loop from inverted, you pull the G's for 1/2 the loop.
I expect if the RV3 pilot over G'd the airframe it was because of a
short duration very high G (6 to 8 G's) pull that over stressed it.
This is the manuver that has caused most of the RV3 (not RV3A) wing
failures. Most were caused by high speed flyby's with the agressive
pullup and "look Mom, no wing".
Therefore, I expect that the RV3 pilot did not have GLOC when the
accided happened but he may well have been knocked out for a short
duration after the violent snap. Without a parachute, it really
doesn't matter what happened after the wing came off.
Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nutplates (was: What can I do before ...) |
1. I didn't countersink. The pop rivets are not countersunk, so I will
use AN525 "washer head screws" that will stick up about the same height.
The whole area is either carpeted or cushioned anyway.
The countersinking was for the "overlapping" skins. I finally
realized that I could just have *extra* bolts holding other parts down
and shouldn't have bothered with all the countersinking fuss; that is
what took the vast majority of the time.
2. Buy a #8 nutplate jig for easier hole alignment.
No question. At first, I was using a transfer punch to mark the
holes, but there would be occasional minor misalignment. So, I
started to use the #8 nutplate jig as a drill guide. Eventually, the
3/32 hole would become a little larger. So, I just used a drift pin
to push the two hole guides out and swapped them. (There are two hole
guides, but, if you are installing the normal two legged nutplates,
you flip the jig over and reuse the same hole guide. The second guide
is for the one legged nutplates ...)
3. Use the "reduced head 3/32 countersunk rivets" from Avery. No
reinforcing strips or anything else needed. Just countersink the 0.025
material and squeeze. They seem to squeeze easier than normal rivets. This
is the one exception I make to my "dimple everything possible" rule.
Now you tell me about these things, Gil :-)
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: The Last Word On Pneumatic Squeezers |
> Are the 3000 lb. squeezers sold by Avery,
> Cleaveland and CP powerful enough to squeeze the "infamous big rivets" on the
> spar?
No. The BIG one (Van will rent one to you) is way to big an unwieldy to
do much else. For my wing spars, I used the Avery Tool/4 lb sledge
hammer. Lots of people cling to the belief that that method is too
"caveman" to do good work, but it worked great for me and lots of my
buddies here in PDX area.
> I had a chance to use one of these beasties at Van's Builders'
> Clinic, and figure it might just be the secret weapon for RV builders. Lots
> of uses, and not THAT much more expensive than a good hand squeezer (a
> rationalization, I know).
Agreed. Get the thing, you'llbe glad you did.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
I spent a lot of time thinking about this wing failure stuff
last night. This is particularly relevent as I am just puttting up
my wing jigs for my -3A.
So here's an idea. How about a G warning. It would be an
audible and visible alarm. It would make some nasty noise that
would increase in both pitch and volume as the G load exceeds a
preset value. I would preset it to start at probably five Gs and
increase every half G. Once I got to 6.5 it would make an awful
racket and be wildly flashing a red light on the dash. At least
this way if I was yanking and banking and having so much fun
that I was lost to reality I would get a serious reminder.
A G meter with an electric output would be needed along
with some electroncs. I should be pretty easy and really could
save someones life.
Thoughts?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: loosing a wing |
>
> Regarding the GLOCK discussion...
> Herman ^^^^^
>
Do you mean GLOC? Glock is a fine Austrian firearm. The now infamous
"plastic gun". Or is this a typo from reading TPG to much?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Torque Wrench Help |
Bill,
There are several types of torque wrenches. The simplest & cheapest is a
torque rod having another rod (the indicator) attached such that it
indicates torque on a scale. They are available in inch-pounds,
foot-pounds, inch-ounces, etc. You can get one from Sears or any other
tool store that has automotive tools. The more expensive torque wrenches
have a rotating barrel where you set the torque that you want and it
slips when you reach it. I've used them all but have never found the need
to spend the extra money for the automatic ones.
Fred, RV-6A
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, William Costello wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things, but REALLY ignorant about
> torque wrenches, having never used one at all.
> Is there a single torque wrench that I could use for the nylock lugs,
> the engine mount and the prop bolts? Can anyone recommend a model and
> source for a reliable wrench? I sure would appreciate some help on
> this.
>
> Bill Costello
> RV-6 on right elevator
> bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
Herman wrote:
> Without a parachute, it really
>doesn't matter what happened after the wing came off.
That's tough to argue...
However I know of a few folks who have bailed out of T-34C's from an
unrecoverable spin. While a T-34 spin is obviously much less violent
than an airframe failure,it is none the less an exciting ride. In the
two cases I'm aware of, the spin became unrecoverable due to aft CG.
An issue I've heard addressed in the past in the RV-4 in particular.
Dan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
> So here's an idea. How about a G warning. It would be an
>audible and visible alarm. It would make some nasty noise that
>would increase in both pitch and volume as the G load exceeds a
>preset value. I would preset it to start at probably five Gs and
>increase every half G. Once I got to 6.5 it would make an awful
>racket and be wildly flashing a red light on the dash. At least
>this way if I was yanking and banking and having so much fun
>that I was lost to reality I would get a serious reminder.
>
> A G meter with an electric output would be needed along
>with some electroncs. I should be pretty easy and really could
>save someones life.
>
Isn't there an AOA indicator that does exactly what you're suggesting? I'm
not clear on exactly what type of conditions the angle of attack will warn
against, but I thought it would warn of high speed stalls. I guess that
won't quite give you the results you want for high speed high-G (6+) since
the past discussions have indicated 9+ G's are possible in an RV-3 without
AOA reaching a stall.
I'm just blow'n in the wind with my non-aerodynamically educated viewpoint.
So feel free to jump all over my limited knowledge on the subject. And
don't feel in the slightest bit guilty if you destroy my fragile confidence.
(hehe)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | RV6A landing gear & videos |
>you need to leave the bottem forward skin off as well as the next skins back.
>level the plane on swa horses and follow the instructions in the book. we
>cover this in the fuselage tapes from start to finish......george
It's even easier now than George shows in his video.
Since the gear legs are pre-drilled to their mounts, the only
alignment you can do is a slight rotation and/or vertical movement of the
mount as it is clamped to the wing spar. The only measurements needed are
the height above the wing surface, and the distance out from the centerline
(just mark on the wing, and check with a SmartLevel). ** Nothing else is
adjustable **
This also means that you don't even need the heavy steel angle iron
to clamp the gear axles to. I didn't like the idea of all of that weight
perched above my wing surfaces, and working in my driveway, I didn't have
any basement beams to safety strap it to :^)
One extra item, don't forget to take the fuel tanks off the wings first!
... Gil Alexander, RV6a, #20701 ... thankful Vans decided to pre-drill
the gear legs!!
PS. I like your videos George, but sometimes you make it look to easy :^)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dan_burns(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
Cheryl,
One point that I would take into consideration is pilot workload. If you got
yourself into a situation where you pulling 5g +, you would probably know it and
if you were in the process of recovering from a botched acro maneuver, the last
thing you want to contend with is a nuisance warning telling you the obvious.
You may find it very distracting while trying to save your butt.
Some of the fighter pilots in Vietnam use to shut the warning systems off prior
to going into combat so they concentrate on the job at hand.
Although I'm not a fan of aural warnings, an available product on the market
which may be better suited to warning of a potential problem is a speed warning
device which, in the commuter market, is set to provide an aural warning at Vmo
+ 6 knots. Overspeed would not be as easily recognised as high g loading and by
staying within the design speeds, the chances of avoiding problems are greatly
improved.
Just an opinion!!!
Danny Burns
RV-6 21044
P.S. You have probably realized you made a little omission in the last sentence
of your posting but thanks for the info!!!!!
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: G warning
Date: 11/10/95 12:42
I spent a lot of time thinking about this wing failure stuff
last night. This is particularly relevent as I am just puttting up
my wing jigs for my -3A.
So here's an idea. How about a G warning. It would be an
audible and visible alarm. It would make some nasty noise that
would increase in both pitch and volume as the G load exceeds a
preset value. I would preset it to start at probably five Gs and
increase every half G. Once I got to 6.5 it would make an awful
racket and be wildly flashing a red light on the dash. At least
this way if I was yanking and banking and having so much fun
that I was lost to reality I would get a serious reminder.
A G meter with an electric output would be needed along
with some electroncs. I should be pretty easy and really could
save someones life.
Thoughts?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Cheryl Sanchez wrote:
> So here's an idea. How about a G warning. It would be an
> audible and visible alarm.
Cheryl has a good idea. Not just a good idea, a DAMN good idea.
SOmewhere I've seen a G-meter with a digital display. Oughta be able to
hack one up to do this pretty easily.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
>One point that I would take into consideration is pilot workload. If you got
>yourself into a situation where you pulling 5g +, you would probably know
it and
>if you were in the process of recovering from a botched acro maneuver, the
last
>thing you want to contend with is a nuisance warning telling you the obvious.
>You may find it very distracting while trying to save your butt.
THIS IS PROBABLY RIDICULOUS, but.....
Has any work been done in the area of homebuilt ejection seats? Could they
be made light enough, reliable enough etc...? I know nothing on the subject
other than you're sitting on a very precise bomb that explodes at just the
right speed.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Copperstate fly-in |
I am going to Phoenix this weekend,
and would like to go for at least one day to the fly-in.
Need info. When are the airshows? How do you get there (driving ) from
Chandler.
Thanks.
rich klee 6a fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Terry Williams <terry(at)is.com> |
I am thinking that a BRS (ballistic recovery system) is probably =
more practical than an ejection seat. However, both would probably =
severely impact useful load, be very hard to engineer/install, and =
neither might be reliable in the case of stuctural failure.
But, a BRS is an interesting thought.
tw
Begin forwarded message:
From: pharmcomp.com!sday(at)matronics.com
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 14:21 PDT
Subject: Re: RV-List: G warning
>One point that I would take into consideration is pilot workload. =
If you got=20
>yourself into a situation where you pulling 5g +, you would =
probably know
it and
>if you were in the process of recovering from a botched acro =
maneuver, the
last=20
>thing you want to contend with is a nuisance warning telling you =
the obvious. =20
>You may find it very distracting while trying to save your butt.
THIS IS PROBABLY RIDICULOUS, but.....
Has any work been done in the area of homebuilt ejection seats? =
Could they
be made light enough, reliable enough etc...? I know nothing on =
the subject
other than you're sitting on a very precise bomb that explodes at =
just the
right speed.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com =20
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
| Subject: | G alarm thoughts |
I have been doing some more thinking about my g-alarm idea.
Here is the current state of my thoughts:
The alarm would notify the pilot via an audible alarm signal
and a flashing light on the panel. As the G load increases, above a
starting limit, the tone would increase in both pitch and volume. The
flashing light would start flashing slowly in yellow, then fast in
yellow, then slowly in red and finally faster in red. The tone would
be sent to the audio panel to mix with radio and intercom stuff.
Input to the signal generator would come from both a g-meter
and the airspeed indicator. The control signal would have three inputs:
- Current G loading
- Integral of G loading
- Airspeed
These three signals(actually the second is generated by integrating the
first) are then summed. Finally a base signal would be subtracted to
prevent the alarm from starting at zero. The output signal, i.e, would
then be a function of the magnitude of the above sum.
What all this means is this: the more g you are pulling AND
the faster you are adding more g's AND the faster the aircraft is going
THEN the more alarm signal is generated. In other words the control
equation is more than just the current g loading.
To build this we would need a g-meter with an electrical output
and an airspeed indicator with an electrical output. The rest is
pretty easy with a few op-amps and some power.
Some are concerned that in a crisis the alarm signal would
be distracting and cause more problems for the pilot. So I guess we
could put in a switch to turn it off. But then if you never use it
then it can't help you. The idea here is to have it on for when you
are just horsing around.
You are locked in a deadly dogfight with that Glassair guy
who is always telling you how much better his plane is than yours and
how much better a pilot he is. He keeps calling your rv a spam-can.
Now's your chance to nail him once and for all. He is below you at
ten oclock, moving in to pass across your nose. Obviously he has
lost sight of you and his ass is now yours. You add a touch of power
and lower the nose. Your speed is building as the wind starts
screaming over the canopy. A quick check and yes your guns are
armed. Momentarily you have him lined up on a big bug mess on the
windshield but he is moving very rapidly now to the right. He is
in so close but still he doesn't see you. Bank to the right now,
still coming down. You are screaming down towards him but he is still
moving to the right. Bank some more. Now you are pulling back on the
stick to get the nose around fast. Almost. Not quite. Pull a bit more
and......
What is it going to be? A broken wing or a return to reality
from your g-alarm? The choice is yours. Remember - you only have to
be wrong once.
Cheryl
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
I am looking for a flying RV-6 or RV-4 to purchase and fly while mine is =
under construction. A VFR airplane is fine. This airplane will be a =
partnership airplane (3 people) and will be a second airplane for two of =
the partners... so cost IS an object. We can't afford a grand champion =
RV.
Send me a note or call me if you know of anyone interested in selling.
Thanks,
B F Gibbons (Arkansas)
RV-6 (starting wings soon)
bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com
(501) 621-8877
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
Heck, you may wish to add the opposite extreme as well, and build in a stall
warning too.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
Reply to: Ejection Seats
Ho boy now you started it, Steve!
The current Martin Baker seats (manufactured under license from the British)
cost more than $150K. About 1 month back in Aviation week there was an
article on the Russians trying to break into the market. Evidently their seat
has been reviewed by the Air Force and there are some very good claims for the
Russian seat. However, the cost mentioned was still around $100,000 dollars
NOT rubles! So forget about buying the two best seats in the world.
Any such home brew project is doomed due to development costs. All seats use
a rocket for propulsion and that ordnance is controlled by the gov't and most
likely not available. If you are thinking of compressed air or some other form
of propulsion energy (hydrazine!) forget it. The package would not be
practical in a experimental a/c.
The best avenue to explore is what is already available and on the market with
modifications to fit your a/c. And that is the ballistic parachutes
manufactured by BRS (Balistic Recovery Systems). They started out on
ultralights (with excellent success) and they have now certified a unit for a
C-152. So you know there is an aircraft application similar in size and weight
that works. Cost is about $5K-$6k for a standard unit. The parachute is
attached to your aircraft and can be deployed at will. I assume there are
airspeed restrictions. I think they are sized to drop about1500 fpm so you
aint going to save your plane but hopefully you will survive the abrupt stop.
Don't know address or number. Their parachute has been designed into a
soon-to-come-market composite aircraft by Cirrus.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: G loads and G alarm |
One more thing to consider in the shedding of wings on RV's.
It may be due to a combination of G load (caused by pulling or pushing
too hard on the stick at too high an airspeed) AND cranking
in too much aileron.
What I am saying here is that you may be just fine pulling 5 or 6 G's
with no aileron. However, if you crank in a lot of aileron at the
same time, such as doing that evasive manuver in a dog fight,
then those huge ailerons at the end of the wing will put a lot of
twisting load on the wing. That may be the straw that breaks the
camels back. I know Van has been very concerned with people that
do ham fisted aerobatics and slam it too much aileron (he described
such an incident in the RVator when he was showing a Ace pilot how to
do rolls).
My point here is that you need to consider this in your design
of a device to help prevent this.
I don't want to stomp on innovation, but I also think that this happens
way to fast for anyone to react to a beeping horn. If you do that
pull or pull and turn with too much stick force by the time some
alarm goes off it is probably too late. It might be a good tool if
it starts warning you early enough so that you build the proper flying
habits early on in the RV. Then it may be a very good idea.
It may be the person that has pushed the 'envelope' a number of times
and therefore has become conditioned to such manuvers. Then one day
he/she pushed it a little too far. A device that keeps you from getting
to close to the edge of the flight envelope may therefore be a good idea
even it it would not prevent some abrubt high G manuver.
Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
My thought. If you feel you MUST use a G-warning system:
Don't bother with the visual warning. If a pilot is trying to pay
attention to what's going on, he may be busy with scanning
instruments/visual references/etc. This is just another distraction.
F-15s use aural warnings for stress indicators...if the pilot doesn't
shut them off.
On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Cheryl Sanchez wrote:
>
> I have been doing some more thinking about my g-alarm idea.
> Here is the current state of my thoughts:
>
> The alarm would notify the pilot via an audible alarm signal
> and a flashing light on the panel. As the G load increases, above a
> starting limit, the tone would increase in both pitch and volume. The
> flashing light would start flashing slowly in yellow, then fast in
> yellow, then slowly in red and finally faster in red. The tone would
> be sent to the audio panel to mix with radio and intercom stuff.
>
> Input to the signal generator would come from both a g-meter
> and the airspeed indicator. The control signal would have three inputs:
> - Current G loading
> - Integral of G loading
> - Airspeed
> These three signals(actually the second is generated by integrating the
> first) are then summed. Finally a base signal would be subtracted to
> prevent the alarm from starting at zero. The output signal, i.e, would
> then be a function of the magnitude of the above sum.
>
> What all this means is this: the more g you are pulling AND
> the faster you are adding more g's AND the faster the aircraft is going
> THEN the more alarm signal is generated. In other words the control
> equation is more than just the current g loading.
>
> To build this we would need a g-meter with an electrical output
> and an airspeed indicator with an electrical output. The rest is
> pretty easy with a few op-amps and some power.
>
> Some are concerned that in a crisis the alarm signal would
> be distracting and cause more problems for the pilot. So I guess we
> could put in a switch to turn it off. But then if you never use it
> then it can't help you. The idea here is to have it on for when you
> are just horsing around.
>
> You are locked in a deadly dogfight with that Glassair guy
> who is always telling you how much better his plane is than yours and
> how much better a pilot he is. He keeps calling your rv a spam-can.
> Now's your chance to nail him once and for all. He is below you at
> ten oclock, moving in to pass across your nose. Obviously he has
> lost sight of you and his ass is now yours. You add a touch of power
> and lower the nose. Your speed is building as the wind starts
> screaming over the canopy. A quick check and yes your guns are
> armed. Momentarily you have him lined up on a big bug mess on the
> windshield but he is moving very rapidly now to the right. He is
> in so close but still he doesn't see you. Bank to the right now,
> still coming down. You are screaming down towards him but he is still
> moving to the right. Bank some more. Now you are pulling back on the
> stick to get the nose around fast. Almost. Not quite. Pull a bit more
> and......
>
> What is it going to be? A broken wing or a return to reality
> from your g-alarm? The choice is yours. Remember - you only have to
> be wrong once.
>
> Cheryl
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- G alarm thought |
Mail*Link(r) SMTP RE>RV-List: G alarm thoughts
Heck, you may wish to add the opposite extreme as well, and build in a stall
warning too.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
(8.6.10/LLNL-1.18/llnl.gov-03.95)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:40:57 -0800
From: Richard Chandler <Claris.COM!mauser(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: G alarm thoughts
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | RE: rv-list: G-Warning |
Terry Williams sent the following:
>I am thinking that a BRS (ballistic recovery system) is probably =
>more practical than an ejection seat. However, both would probably =
>severely impact useful load, be very hard to engineer/install, and =
>neither might be reliable in the case of stuctural failure.
>
>But, a BRS is an interesting thought.
I was thinking the same thing on the way home from work this afternoon, but also
wonder if it would work at high speeds.
Steve
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
_
>GLOC doesn't (usually?) result in structural failure, although a
failure may
>
>induce GLOC.
>
>>Aerobatics should be approached with extreme caution and training with an
>>experianced instructor is absolutly crucial..
GLOC is not something that happens instantaneously. You first
start losing perpherial vision (tunnel vision) and then lose visual
cues altogether (grey out). In my 1000 hrs or so in the T-38, I never
lost conscienceness (ie. I was aware but unable to see). But at 600
KIAS, a few seconds is a lot of airspace. You can delay GLOC by
tightening your leg and abdominal muscles. Every notice those fighter
puke grunting on Wings?
G limits in manuevers can be deceiving. The limits are for
symetrical (ie acceleration in one dimension. "Rolling G's" are
significantly less. Rolling G's occur when you put in some aileron
when you yank that stick back. This can twist your air machine in was
it was not designed to handle. Use care!
Jerry Walker, RV-6 left wing in the jig!!
September 22, 1995 - October 11, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-ar