RV-Archive.digest.vol-as
October 11, 1995 - October 23, 1995
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Date: 95-10-11 22:04:01 EDT
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Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:03:34 -0400
From: JIMNJAC(at)aol.com
Subject: rv-3 accident
i was out in my garage working on my -4, sub-consciously listining to the -3
doing aerobatics about three miles to the south. nothing out of the ordinary
for this area. while i was listining to the r.p.m. changes, i was trying to
visualize what the airplane was doing. at what must have been the final
moments, i heard his rpm go way beyond what would seen to be normal and then
i heard the rpm's immediatly drop back to an idle condition. almost sounded
like a he had just gone over the top of a tight loop with power off down the
backside. i thought to myself, man, he really pushed that one. in less than
five minutes i heard my fire radio report an aircraft down...
jimnjac rv-4 hillsboro, or.
--WAA01357.813463415/emout04.mail.aol.com--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com> |
Do any RVers have BRS ballistic parachutes? I was wondering just
how hard it would be to add this to the design, and where you
could add it without messing up the cg.
-Bryan
--
Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcbock(at)kendaco.telebyte.com |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
> I have been doing some more thinking about my g-alarm idea.
>
> To build this we would need a g-meter with an electrical output
>and an airspeed indicator with an electrical output. The rest is
>pretty easy with a few op-amps and some power.
Analog Devices makes an integrated circuit that has a g force sensor built
into it. (It actually uses a miniture sliding plate fabricated in the
chip that changes the capacitance of the circuit). They make two models,
one 0-5g and the other 0-50g. They are currently used to trigger air bags
in automobiles, but might work well for this application.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce C. Bockius | "That's it. You're all holding
LT, US Navy | me back. I'm going to Clown
Bremerton, WA, USA | College."
bcbock(at)kendaco.telebyte.com | - Homer Simpson
---------------------------------------------------------------
Considering an RV-6 or a Pulsar
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)primenet.com |
| Subject: | Copperstate fly-in |
I am in Chandler now, If any one needs directions, or a ride
from chandler Muni let me know.
bob.
602.899.3685
--------
------------------------------------------------
Bob Ollerton send: 10/11/95 22:16:51MST
talk: 770.518.5335 fax: 770.998.9096
Gridnet International. Roswell GA USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
Has anyone considered the option of simply not flying in this fashion? I
question whether it is strictly legal from the view of the regulators.
I may be a bit too conservative, but you really have to pay attention to what
your doing up there. You just can't go out and fly with reckless abandon. At
least if you want to keep flying.
On the subject of balistic chutes Van doesn't seem to be in favor of them.
On the subject of ejection seats geez, the military has it's hands full
maintaining those things.
On the subject of instrumentation. You might want to add some sort of strain
gauge to the wing spar. This could be set up to detect cumulative wear and
perhaps detect deterioration in the condition of the wing before it actually
failed.
I am reminded of a Navion I saw which had been landed hard with the tip tanks
full. Broke the wing. Pilot didn't notice the broken wing until he flew it in
to a mechanic for it's anual. It was amazing. The wing would flex a couple of
inches. I don't know if monitoring the deflection of a wing via straing gauges
would really let you measure and evaluate the state of the wing as the hours
built up.
Much simpler to fly conservativly and not get in questionable situations where
you have to push the airframe and pilot to their respective limits.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)primenet.com |
| Subject: | Copperstate fly-in |
Take chandler Blvd East, it turns in to Williams Field road,
takes you right to it. I don't remember the actual miles, I
guess its about 10 or so from downtown (Arizona Ave.).
-
-------------------------------------------------------
Bob Ollerton send: 10/11/95 22:15:19MST
talk: 770.518.5335 fax: 770.998.9096
Gridnet International. Roswell GA USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re:Ballistic chute |
>Do any RVers have BRS ballistic parachutes? I was wondering just
>how hard it would be to add this to the design, and where you
>could add it without messing up the cg.
Quite frankly people, ballistic chutes are not going to do you any good at
the speeds a RV is apt to be flying at breakup. All of the warning bells and
whistles in the world are not going to do you any good if you do not fly
within the design limits of the airplane. In over 700 hrs of flying in my
RV-6 I have probably done some stupid type of flying but I have always kept
in mind DO NOT DO AN AGRESSIVE HIGH SPEED TURN AND CLIMB as someone mentioned
here high speed, turn and climb create high G forces very quickly and
failure could occur before you had time to react to any bells or whistles.
A ballistic chute might be fine if you are over rugged country with no place
to land if a engine failed it "might" let you down a little easier.
Van and Steve were flying towards each other and as they passed each other
started a turn when Steve start making the turn tighter to get behind Van,
Van started a climb, we can only assume that Steve being at a high speed and
a tight turn started the climb also which would quickly created a high G
load.
Please all fly safely.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dyer(at)edlmail.jsc.nasa.gov (Terry Dyer) |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
>> I have been doing some more thinking about my g-alarm idea.
>>
>> To build this we would need a g-meter with an electrical output
>>and an airspeed indicator with an electrical output. The rest is
>>pretty easy with a few op-amps and some power.
>
>Analog Devices makes an integrated circuit that has a g force sensor built
>into it. (It actually uses a miniture sliding plate fabricated in the
>chip that changes the capacitance of the circuit). They make two models,
>one 0-5g and the other 0-50g. They are currently used to trigger air bags
>in automobiles, but might work well for this application.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Bruce C. Bockius | "That's it. You're all holding
>LT, US Navy | me back. I'm going to Clown
>Bremerton, WA, USA | College."
>bcbock(at)kendaco.telebyte.com | - Homer Simpson
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Considering an RV-6 or a Pulsar
>
>
I am currently using the Analog Devices (ADXL50JH) 0-50g
accelerometer in my Rv6a. I designed a multifunctional unit
using a 20 character by 2 line LCD display, a Signetics
microcontroller, a real time clock and two serial Analog to
digital converters. My unit has different modes, One of which
is the accelerometer, it has a real time display and it
records a displays min and max g's, it resolution is 1/10 of
a g and has a range of +/- 0-10 g's. It has a voltage mode,
sensing battery voltage. It has a temperature mode sensing
inside & outside temperatures displaying them in C or F. It
has an elapse timer that can be reset at any time. This unit
could be used for egt and cht with additional circuitry.
Terry
Terry Dyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
Cheryl,
Nice dogfight. I'll just throw in my two cents on the G warning.
As discussed, we are making this way too complicated. If there is gonig
to be a warning,it should go off at 6gs. If the warning goes off, you
immediately LET GO! Forget the Glasair.
6gs is the limit. Van did not pick that number out of a hat.
See you tonight..
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
Sounds like a neat gadget but why not use it as a training tool...
After a couple thousand hours of tactical flying I will agree that an
alarm can be useful when your performing a mission in low altitude
high G environment. Alarms like low altitude warnings and rudder
shakers can get your attention when you've been distracted by the
cockpit workload.
My point is pulling acro in an RV-3 is likely the "primary mission".
One who is engaged in such activity needs to know what 6.5 G's feels
like while having the situational awareness to recognize things are
getting out of control.
Why not design it to go off at 4 G's so you can react to it.
In this case it would be a nice training tool to calibrate your but to
the G- meter.
After relatively little time one can "feel G's" to a very high degree
of accuracy.
IMHO
Dan
----------
From: Cheryl Sanchez
Subject: RV-List: G warning
Date: Wednesday, October 11, 1995 12:42
I spent a lot of time thinking about this wing failure stuff
last night. This is particularly relevent as I am just puttting up
my wing jigs for my -3A.
So here's an idea. How about a G warning. It would be an
audible and visible alarm. It would make some nasty noise that
would increase in both pitch and volume as the G load exceeds a
preset value. I would preset it to start at probably five Gs and
increase every half G. Once I got to 6.5 it would make an awful
racket and be wildly flashing a red light on the dash. At least
this way if I was yanking and banking and having so much fun
that I was lost to reality I would get a serious reminder.
A G meter with an electric output would be needed along
with some electroncs. I should be pretty easy and really could
save someones life.
Thoughts?
Cheryl Sanchez
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike casmey <102023.1363(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | ProSealing tank baffle |
I'm following George Orndorff's procedure for prosealing my tank and I just put
on the back baffle. I've installed my wood pins to seal the skin to the baffle
above the rivet line and it occured to me that I after smearing seal over the
shop heads of the 3/32 rivets and with the sealant oozing out under the wooden
pins it's going to be tough to get the baffle over the spar flange where all my
nutplates are. If there is sealant on the baffle flange in the area where the
csk #8 screws attach to the spar flange won't it be tough to get a good fit?
Will the tank stick to the spar? Do I have to remove the sealant from the tank
baffle above the 3/32 rivet line? Will the wooden pins come off the baffle once
the sealant cures? Does any of this make sense?
Mike Casmey
RV-4
Minneapolis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
>On the subject of balistic chutes Van doesn't seem to be in favor of them.
I don't think it's that he is not in favor of them, I believe it conflicts
with his idea of the the RV represents. (light sportplane with respectable
performance and low cost) As well as analysing were the largest % of
accidents occurr. (Low altitude manuevers that probably wouldn't have been
saved even with the chute because of excess airspeed at such a low altitude)
Just my opinion
>On the subject of ejection seats geez, the military has it's hands full
>maintaining those things.
I new the question was way out there, but I just wanted to get some feedback
as to what was available. I could just picture the many issues surrounding
an ejection seat in homebuilts. You would probably see a few reports of a
pilot (un-expectedly) ejecting from their perfect aircraft that was happely
flying straight and level at 8000 MSL. Or the FAA wondering if it was
really necessary under the circumstances for a pilot to eject while the
un-manned aircraft takes a nose dive into someones house.
>Much simpler to fly conservativly and not get in questionable situations where
>you have to push the airframe and pilot to their respective limits.
The words 'questionable situation' could be argued for centuries without an
agreement as to their meaning.
In my opinion any aerobatic maneuver is a questionable situation (not
necessary for simple point A to B flying) But if that is all I wanted in an
aircraft, I probably would have bought something other than an RV. Since
the ac has such fine flight characteristics, I want to exploit them by
flying some very basic aerobatic maneuvers.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Still more g-load chatter |
More thoughts on the g's, loads, and warnings...
[edited for brevity, not content]
I wrote:
>Cal Brabandt wrote:
>>Va is is a function of the aircraft's unaccelerated (1 G)
>>stall speed and the load factor limit. It is equal to
>>the square root of the load factor limit times the
>>unaccelerated stall speed.
>All other things being equal this is true. Note that this refers to
>_true_ airspeed.
I wrote it _wrong_, too. At the speeds we're talking about, if you
start with calibrated airspeed, the result will be an accurate
estimate of calibrated airspeed. Start with true, get an accurate
estimate of true. Dang, I hate it when it does that.
Cheryl Sanchez wrote re g-warning:
>..As the G load increases, above a
>starting limit, the tone would increase in both pitch and volume. The
>flashing light would start flashing slowly in yellow, then fast in
>yellow, then slowly in red and finally faster in red.
How do you know you're at a limit by just listening to the tone?
You've got to have a calibrated ear to know what volume level and
tone correspond to the knock-it-off limit. In addition, if this is
intended to save you from the 'dogfight' type of overstress, the
flashing light won't help you, because (if you're doing it right)
your eyes will be on your opponent, not the panel. It won't stop
the panic-type overstress either, because, given the choice between
(at least as far as your brain is concerned) definately smacking
into the ground or maybe overstressing, who wouldn't choose the maybe?
I vote for the 'calibrated butt' warning system. If I have to
start straining, or straining harder than I'm comfortable with
(and it takes practice), it's time to unload some of the g. Guys
fight with faster airplanes with similar g-limits (sometimes
lower) above corner speed (Va) and use this method, only they're
sometimes fighting for real.
Herman Dierks wrote:
>It may be due to a combination of G load (caused by pulling or pushing
>too hard on the stick at too high an airspeed) AND cranking
>in too much aileron.
This is an EXCELLENT point.
A.Reichert wrote:
>F-15s use aural warnings for stress indicators...if the pilot doesn't
>shut them off.
I'm not familiar with the F-15 specifically, but I'd be willing to
bet that there's no 'g-warning' as such. Similar airplanes have a
g-limiter and an aural AOA cue. I can't think of a way to shut the
AOA tone off without pulling breakers (bad). A properly designed
g-limiter in the RV's could solve all of these problems. Just the
project for an electrical/aerospace engineering team. Earl, Matt? :)
Jerry Walker wrote:
(after I wrote:)
>>GLOC doesn't (usually?) result in structural failure, although a
>>failure may induce GLOC.
My point was that the structural failure of a wing is most likely
not a result of the pilot losing consciousness. The same thing
that causes the failure may induce GLOC, or the dynamics after
the failure may induce it.
>GLOC is not something that happens instantaneously.
Again, this is highly dependent on physiology and technique.
A gradual application of g will cause the symptoms you describe,
and they can be delayed by the doin' tha grunt (assuming you're
trained well enough to do it), but rapid g-onset and/or an
unattentive pilot can lead to almost instantaneous GLOC. (Been
there, done that, in a rather embarrassing 6-g break turn).
Dave Hyde
STILL waiting on my fuselage kit
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle |
>I'm following George Orndorff's procedure for prosealing my tank and I just put
>on the back baffle. I've installed my wood pins to seal the skin to the baffle
>above the rivet line and it occured to me that I after smearing seal over the
>shop heads of the 3/32 rivets and with the sealant oozing out under the wooden
>pins it's going to be tough to get the baffle over the spar flange where all my
>nutplates are. If there is sealant on the baffle flange in the area where the
>csk #8 screws attach to the spar flange won't it be tough to get a good fit?
>Will the tank stick to the spar? Do I have to remove the sealant from the tank
>baffle above the 3/32 rivet line? Will the wooden pins come off the baffle once
>the sealant cures? Does any of this make sense?
Good point, I'm just about ready to start some Pro-Seal evenings myself and
my shop heads are basicall touching the spar flange. If I add a layer of
goop, I will surely have to trim that spar flange by a 1/16". Is that doable?
I am in need of the same help as you. Please, someone educate us. :-)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Chatter: Aviation Web Sight |
Check it out.
Chris
----- Begin Included Message -----
http://acro.harvard.edu/GA/ga_servers.html
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | (chatter)G alarm thoughts |
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995 hic.net!blea(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Has anyone considered the option of simply not flying in this fashion? I
> question whether it is strictly legal from the view of the regulators.
>
> I may be a bit too conservative, but you really have to pay attention to what
> your doing up there. You just can't go out and fly with reckless abandon. At
> least if you want to keep flying.
>
I agree. But if I want to be conservative I would stick to a certified
aircraft with certified engine and only fly CAVU, never pull more than
1.5 Gs, never exceed Va, always fly fixed gear, never let fuel go below
3/4 full and always fly within gliding range of an airport or interstate.
I do this now in my clubs Cessna 172, if I were happy doing this I would
not be building an RV-6. The only possible reason I would have for
building a single
seat vfr high speed/maneuverable aircraft would be to fly aggressively.
By aggressive I do not mean to exceed 6 Gs, but aerobatics/dogfights? at
3-5 Gs would be aggressive flying in an RV-3 and insane in a C-172!
Conservative is a relative term, just like common sense. I have never
met anyone who will admit to not having common sense! IMHO the type of
person who builds and flys an RV-3 is not a conservative type of pilot. I
do not consider anyone that does acrobatics conservative and the RV-3 was
designed for many of the aerobatic maneuvers. You can't design and build
an airplane such as the RV-3 and expect the pilots to never fly
aggressively.
But as we are often warned: there are no old bold
piolts! The penaly in the air for a mistake is often quite harsh! Just
my thoughts.
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
>Why not design it to go off at 4 G's so you can react to it.
>In this case it would be a nice training tool to calibrate your but to
> the G- meter.
>After relatively little time one can "feel G's" to a very high degree
> of accuracy.
I like the 4 G warning. Also wanted to point one thing out, even though
it's probably obvious. 6G is only valid at aerobatic weight. Take your
weight above that and the G-Max goes down.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Thu Oct 12 10:10:35 0700 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: RV-6 throttle placement
An article in the current AOPA Pilot indicated the Air Force trains
pilots in the right seat of the Firefly (T-3A). They don't want the
pilot to change hands on the stick for work the flaps and the
throttle.
I've heard of a couple RV-6s set up to solo from the right seat. I
guess this may be the same reason...
I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left side of the
RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control (electric only)
there, too.
An immediate reason for not doing it... I become incapacitated and my
right-side passenger has to fly. It would be awkward (at best) for
him or her.
Though I haven't had any experience with this, it just seems "right"
to keep the stick in my right hand....
thanks,
Russ Nichols
RV-6 empenage
(I've looked at parts long enough... I'm finally pounding rivets!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle |
Yes you will need to remove all of the proseal that oozes out from the
back baffle of the fuel tanks in order for it to fit to the wing
properly.
The best way to do this is to rivet the thing together, then clean it
off well before you install any clamps. The clamps shouldn't end up
generating much more "ooze" if you have already cleaned it after
riveting, and should be relatively easy to clean off with Lacquer
thinner after a day or two of curing, but don't wait 2 weeks or it will
be a bear.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> From: pharmcomp.com!sday(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 08:47 PDT
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: ProSealing tank baffle
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> >I'm following George Orndorff's procedure for prosealing my tank and I just
put
> >on the back baffle. I've installed my wood pins to seal the skin to the baffle
> >above the rivet line and it occured to me that I after smearing seal over the
> >shop heads of the 3/32 rivets and with the sealant oozing out under the wooden
> >pins it's going to be tough to get the baffle over the spar flange where all
my
> >nutplates are. If there is sealant on the baffle flange in the area where the
> >csk #8 screws attach to the spar flange won't it be tough to get a good fit?
> >Will the tank stick to the spar? Do I have to remove the sealant from the tank
> >baffle above the 3/32 rivet line? Will the wooden pins come off the baffle once
> >the sealant cures? Does any of this make sense?
>
> Good point, I'm just about ready to start some Pro-Seal evenings myself and
> my shop heads are basicall touching the spar flange. If I add a layer of
> goop, I will surely have to trim that spar flange by a 1/16". Is that doable?
>
> I am in need of the same help as you. Please, someone educate us. :-)
>
> -Steve Day
> sday(at)pharmcomp.com
> (CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Markert UAL 747 <73412.1506(at)compuserve.com> |
True,
F-15's do use aural warnings. There is a 900 Hz tone interrupted at 4 Hz when
at 85% maximum g, at 92% of max g it is interrupted at 10 Hz, until at 100% of
allowable the voice warning "OVER G" is announced until the g is reduced within
limits. The pilot can't turn it off , but he can make an error programming the
computer about configuration and cause faulty missing g warnings. One concern I
have is there has been no discussion of symmetrical (straight pull or push) with
un-symmetrical g loading (Rolling and pulling). During a rolling maneuver the
wings experience vastly different loads (one at a higher g load than the other).
Because of this, there is a significant reduction in un-symmetrical g's (rolling
g's) allowable in most military fighter. For example, at a medium fighting
weight, the F-15 can pull 7 g's symmetrical and only 5.8 rolling g's. I would
assume this is true for RV's as well.
Bob
Has been F-15 driver
wanna be -8 driver
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle |
Guys!
I just reviewed this with George. We are pretty sure on the tape he
referred to using masking tape to cover the areas here that you wouldn't
want to get proseal on or the tank won't fit over the spar. The masking
tape can be removed after the proseal is set.
If you have gotten proseal on the skin that will go over the spar, you
will have to remove it with a putty knife or (eek) a razor blade like a
window scraper. You must be very cautious doing this so as to now gouge the
aluminum. If you do scratch or gouge, use emory paper to smooth the scratch
so there are no sharp edges that could cause stress cracks in the future.
We're really sorry you missed this point and hope the damage isn't too
bad and doesn't take too long to fix. If you need further clarification,
please call us in the evenings. We'll spend as much time as you need to help!
Becki Orndorff
>I'm following George Orndorff's procedure for prosealing my tank and I just put
>on the back baffle. I've installed my wood pins to seal the skin to the baffle
>above the rivet line and it occured to me that I after smearing seal over the
>shop heads of the 3/32 rivets and with the sealant oozing out under the wooden
>pins it's going to be tough to get the baffle over the spar flange where all my
>nutplates are. If there is sealant on the baffle flange in the area where the
>csk #8 screws attach to the spar flange won't it be tough to get a good fit?
>Will the tank stick to the spar? Do I have to remove the sealant from the tank
>baffle above the 3/32 rivet line? Will the wooden pins come off the baffle once
>the sealant cures? Does any of this make sense?
>
>Mike Casmey
>RV-4
>Minneapolis
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Markert UAL 747 <73412.1506(at)compuserve.com> |
Jerry,
I'll respond here publicly because the discussion may be interesting to others.
I totally disagree with your statement that GLOC does not happen instantly.
That is not totally correct. It all depends on the g ONSET rate. Maybe in your
T-38 the rates (not limits) weren't high enough to cause instant GLOC, but I
went from fully awake to TOTALLY unconscious in less than a second without any
warning in an F-15 (single seat!). The g onset rate was extremely high,....
right up to 8+ g's. Luckily the maneuver was a pitch-up into a bandit ( if it
had been a nose low slice I wouldn't be here today). I started the maneuver at
15,000 ft at 450 kts. I woke up at 26,000' 320 kts 30 degrees nose high. My
G-suit had come disconnected (this was before they modified the connections to
prevent this from happening). It is much more than g load, it's also g onset
rate and duration.
I fully agree that there are a lot of pilots "yanking & banking" that may not
fully appreciate that rolling (unsymmetrical) g's impose MUCH higher loads on
the airframe. These loads don't show up on the G meter. With a +6 g airframe
(+9 ultimate) I would never consider moving the stick left or right from center
(rolling under a load) if at more than 4 g's!
Wanna-be -8 driver
Bob
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
Greetings:
I'm Howard Kidwell a new subscriber with a RV6 under construction. I am a
retired USAF Fighter Pilot and have been building about 2 years. Not much
this year, but have just retired from State Govt. and should be out now
working in the "hanger" (garage). I have finished the tail and one wing is
about completed so you can see I have a way to go. I live in Austin Texas
with Mr. RV "TONY B" and lots of flyers/builders, but of course they live/fly
30 miles from me. Looking forward in sharing thoughts and info.
Howard
howardrv(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle |
On 12 Oct 1995, mike casmey wrote:
> Will the tank stick to the spar? Do I have to remove the sealant from the tank
> baffle above the 3/32 rivet line? Will the wooden pins come off the baffle once
> the sealant cures? Does any of this make sense?
Don't panic. You can remove the wooden clamps after 3 days or so. At this
point the proseal will still be a little soft and fairly easy to remove.
I generally use my thumbnail to scrape it off, but a wooden popsicle stick
or a plastic scraper would work also. Even fully cured proseal can be
scraped off with a bit of effort, but in my experience, a full cure takes a
couple of weeks. I find that laquer thinner will remove the proseal even
after a day or more of curing, but my workshop is fairly cool (~60 - 65
degrees) so this probably slows the curing process somewhat.
The wooden pins will come off easily, at least mine did, even after 3 or
four days of curing. You *do* need to remove any excess proseal from the
spar mounting area up to the 3/32 rivet line, but as described above, it
is not difficult if done while the proseal is still reasonably soft.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Flight Simulators |
During all the talk about G force warning systems aerobatic maneuvers and
whatever else talked about in that last couple of days, I thought some of
you might be interested in a fantastic new simulator that is available right
now for FREE on your PC. This simulator is for those of you who like a good
dogfight. If you are interested, read on...
The simulator is called Confirmed Kill and is played online with the
Internet. The system can handle up to 500 simultaneous playes. The reason
it is free, is because right now the simulator is in the Beta stages and
they welcome people to come on board and give it a try. (Especially the
real pilot types) What this sim offers is right now is the selection of the
following aircraft: F4U, P-51 'Mustang', Zero, P-38 'Lightning', Spitfire,
Me109, P-39. As the game progresses they will be adding support for about
50 other WWII aircraft including the Me262 (jet).
You might be wondering just how realistic the simulator is? This is what I
asked, since I've been trying simulators since the Apple II days. This is
one of the few simulators for PC's that use force models. In simple terms
this means is a very realistic representation of flight qualities. Most
flight simulators use tables that say, if plane is traveling at speed X, it
behaves in this fashion etc etc. Not very dynamic. A force model uses
simple calculations of drag at given altitudes and forces from thrust. Fuel,
ammo weight, Gear drag etc.. Granted this is not a full blown wind tunnel
on your PC, but you can simplify the complexities of wind tunnel
calculations and get a fair representation of flight. High speed stalls,
tail slides, knife edge flight. You have to compensate for engine torque
and P-factor. (you can even buy Rudders, throttles etc. if you get really
hooked) Right now the planes in CK aren't locked into the final flight
models, (some of the aircraft are horrible), but The P-38 and Zeke are
pretty good. The P-38 handles Energy a little too well, and the Zeke is a
bit too tough, but each release fixes problems.
When I said dogfighting, you would be absolutely amazed at the
adrenaline rush you can get on a simulator!! Fighting against other human
beings is a lot of fun. You get a pretty nice idea of what can happen in
aerobatics if you aren't careful. Take the P-51 near 500mph and you'll
enter compression, and more than likely auger into the ground. The system
handles blackouts, grey outs, red-outs etc... It also has one of those
progressive sounding AOA indicators. (audible alarm, kinda like the audible
G meter suggested in previous discussions)
The damage model is also fairly realistic, (it's getting better with
each release). If a round comes through the canopy, you'll probably be
killed in flight. If the lead punctures the fuel tank, you'll either
explode or be leaking fuel. Engines get knocked out during head ons etc.
You can even shoot someones wing off, and watch the aircraft go spiraling
out of control. Load up with fuel fuel and ordinance and you'll take up the
entire runway and then some. Fly a P-51 below 200mph and you have one
squirly machine. All in all they did a respectable job. (And this is
coming from someone who has never been impressed with a PC based flight sim)
Flight sim 5 is the best I've flown, but a bit boring to me. I think CK
appeals to the testosterone in me.
If at least one person is interested in this just post your interest and
I'll post the instructions for getting involved. (remember its free until
the simulator is released on the market)
Right now, If you don't have at least a Pentium 60, it's not worth trying.
In the next couple of days, they will have a version that handles a 486-33
just fine.
The Sim supports screen resolutions from 320x200 to 1024x768!!!!
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left side of the
> RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control (electric only)
> there, too.
>
> An immediate reason for not doing it... I become incapacitated and my
> right-side passenger has to fly. It would be awkward (at best) for
> him or her.
>
> Though I haven't had any experience with this, it just seems "right"
> to keep the stick in my right hand....
I started flying in gliders and the "throttle" (spoilers) are on the left
side. Most tandem seat acro trainers also have this setup. I also feel more
comfortable with the stick in my right hand. I considered installing a dual
control throttle. A cable arrangement is what I decided would be best from
a pounds point. The only problem that I have is that things like this tend
to get more complicated than one would think. When it comes to airplanes I
like simple. If you come up with a solution be sure to let us know.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
OK, a general question regarding Manifold Pressure.
Just what is that measurement, and what is it relative to?
Thanks.
- Alan
| Alan Reichert - Wannabe RV-6 Builder |
| http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/home.html |
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
Hi all,
I'm a 53 year old who's been flying since age 16. 2000+ hours, mostly in
Citabria 7ECA. I can see where I will have the time and money to get started
on a plane in a few years - kid just getting started in college next year. I
was thinking of going the Glasair route but got interested in RV after I saw
the RV-8 in the latest Sport Aviation. I seriously think I would miss the
centerline seating and left hand throttle control with the Glasair. I also
wonder whether the extra 50 mph is worth the extra cost and complexity. I'd
like to do a real nice above average job, but don't have the patience to do a
4000 hour show plane. I consider myself a pilot first and a builder second.
I'll just be sitting in the background here soaking up the info. I live in
Minneapolis and might be interested in going into a group where several of us
could share tooling. After this latest thread, I'm real interested in the G
limits of the RV-8. I would often pull 5 G's in the 7ECA during cuban eights,
and that was a much slower plane where trouble was less likely. One thing
that hasn't been mentioned so far is turbulance. It's fairly easy for 5 G's
to become 6 if the air isn't smooth as glass. I consider myself a fairly
conservative guy who likes excitement but not danger, so I have (almost)
always done acro at 4000 feet above the inversion layer.
Thanks for letting me listen in.
Steve Johnson
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle (LONG) |
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995 sday(at)pharmcomp.com wrote:
> Good point, I'm just about ready to start some Pro-Seal evenings myself and
> my shop heads are basicall touching the spar flange. If I add a layer of
> goop, I will surely have to trim that spar flange by a 1/16". Is that doable?
I have had this problem on both my tanks, in spite of my feeble efforts
to measure the rivet line accurately enough to allow clearance. On my
first tank, I just filed down the spar web flange until it cleared all
the tank baffle rivets, making sure that I maintained the minimum rivet
edge distance for the nutplates while doing so. On my second tank, I am
trying a different method:
With the tank mounted on the wing, I took a carpenter's square
and marked the location of all the tank baffle rivets, *on the aft spar
flange*. Then I removed the tank and again using the carpenter's square,
remarked the position of the tank baffle rivets, this time on the forward
spar web flange. Then, using a round file, I made little scallops in the
flange to give clearance for the baffle rivets. This seems easier than
filing down the entire flange, and has the added benfit of only removing
metal from the flange where it was necessary, leaving plenty of extra edge
distance for the nutplate rivets in most cases.
While worrying about this edge distance business, I did a little
calculating regarding just how much load each tank mounting nutplate has
to bear. The results were surprising.
The RV-6 has a gross weight wing loading at aerobatic weight of roughly 12.3
lbs/ft^2. The fuel tank has 6 ft^2 of area and must take a 9 G load
factor at aerobatic weight, so:
6*12.3*9 = 664 lbs.
This is the maximum aerodynamic force to be supported
by the wing tank. Note that any fuel in the tank will add loading in the
*opposite* direction and thus full tanks give less overall loading than
empty tanks! This is obviously a good reason for mounting fuel tanks in the
wings.
Now if we ignore the tank-to-fuselage mounting bracket and also ignore the
outboard tank rib nutplates, then we have (I think) 28 nutplates
attaching the tank to the top spar flange and another 28 attaching it to
the bottom spar flange. Now I'm not sure where the mean aerodynamic force
is applied to the tank under high G-loading, but lets say its at 50% of
the tank chord, about 9 inches from the leading edge, and evenly distributed
along the tank span. Since the wing spar is also roughly 9 inches deep
(I'm just guessing here), there is no force multiplication through leverage
and the lower 28 nutplates would see, at 9 Gs, full aerobatic gross, a
total force of 664 lbs, or 23.7 lbs per nutplate! This is only 12 lbs per
rivet, worst case! And, this does't account for part of the load being
taken up by the tank-to-fuselage bracket and the outboard rib nutplates.
Properly installed 3/32 rivets with the minimum 2 D edge distance can, if
memory serves, support at least 180 lbs before failing, so these nutplate
rivets are really under loaded.
Conclusion: Unless I have made a grave error (pun intended), there is a
**LOT** of redundancy here, so I wouldn't worry too about trimming the
spar flange a bit to clear those baffle rivets. Try to maintain that
minimum 2D edge distance in any case.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle |
P.S. I found that Lacquer thinner cleans cured or partially cured
pro-seal much better than either MEK or Acetone. But beware: it also
dissolves surgical gloves :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> I started flying in gliders and the "throttle" (spoilers) are on the left
> side. Most tandem seat acro trainers also have this setup. I also feel more
> comfortable with the stick in my right hand. I considered installing a dual
> control throttle. A cable arrangement is what I decided would be best from
> a pounds point. The only problem that I have is that things like this tend
> to get more complicated than one would think. When it comes to airplanes I
> like simple. If you come up with a solution be sure to let us know.
I am also thinking of a left hand throttle in my -6, assuming that it
works out ergonomically (I havn't started my fuse yet). I have seen a
Zenair side-by-side with dual throttles. They were knob-and-cable tpye,
like a Cessna. I think the most difficult issue would be the friction
lock. You obviously couldn't use vernier cables as one throttle would
lock the other. I was thinking of a throttle lever on the left side and a
knob throttle in
the middle, with the friction lock removed or disabled from the knob, so
that the friction lock of the lever would control the whole system. I
would either connect both cables to the carburettor directly, if
possible, or else connect them to an intermediate bellcrank of some sort,
but this starts adding weight, complexity, etc.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
Russ,
We have the throttle and other controls center console on our 6-A's and
I have flown and landed from both seats. You adapt pretty quickly to
whichever seat. We built the 6 rather than the 4 so we could both fly and
both have control in case of emergency. Safety if pretty high on our list
of priorities. I think some of the 6's are set up for right seat operations
as right handed people feel they have better control of the stick with their
right hand. Good luck with your decision.
Becki Orndorff
>>From RUSS_NICHOLS Thu Oct 12 10:10:35 0700 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
>Received: from ccMail by ccgate.fire.ca.gov
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:10:35 -0700
>Message-ID: <07d4d120(at)fire.ca.gov>
>From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
>Subject: RV-6 throttle placement
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Length: 976
>
>
> An article in the current AOPA Pilot indicated the Air Force trains
> pilots in the right seat of the Firefly (T-3A). They don't want the
> pilot to change hands on the stick for work the flaps and the
> throttle.
>
> I've heard of a couple RV-6s set up to solo from the right seat. I
> guess this may be the same reason...
>
> I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left side of the
> RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control (electric only)
> there, too.
>
> An immediate reason for not doing it... I become incapacitated and my
> right-side passenger has to fly. It would be awkward (at best) for
> him or her.
>
> Though I haven't had any experience with this, it just seems "right"
> to keep the stick in my right hand....
>
> thanks,
>
> Russ Nichols
> RV-6 empenage
> (I've looked at parts long enough... I'm finally pounding rivets!)
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- G alarm though |
Reply to: RE>>RV-List: G alarm thoughts
Steve, if you count the research and development; starting in the late 40's by
the military on the rocket propelled, 600mph, water brake sled and all of the
activities continuing even today - the probable development $$costs for
ejection seats are greater than $500 million! The rocket sled alone could not
have been built for less than $25m. To top it all of we don't even use a US
designed seat - its British!
Even if you strap a home-brew apparatus to your GTO and do 150mph test runs
at Bonieville - it will take you a lifetime of development. And if you had
the money you would buy a TBM700 or (insert your favorite here). By the way -
who is going to be the very FIRST, live, human to volunteer for that 200 mph
departure test! If its not you - what insurance company is going to cover
your test pilot - do you have enough for the premium!.
If we want to help the most pilots the focus should be on what is practical,
doable and affordable now. IT CAN BE DONE - more later.
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
(Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1),
12 Oct 95 15:25 GMT+0800
Bill Pace
| From: | Bill Pace <billp(at)doctord.com> |
| Subject: | Re: How to Save the skins |
>Bill
> As soon as I get the skins out of the box I put clear shelf paper
>on them. This is thick enough to provide some protection, does a good
>job and is easy to get off without any residue. In the wing kit, the
>skins come with a factory protectant that does the same job.
>
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
>
Bob,
I meant to write to you earlier to thank you for your response. With regard
to the shelf paper method, I imagine that you just drill through it, but how
do you deal with dimpling or countersinking? Do you just avoid applying any
paper in areas where you expect to do these things? Dimpling is one of
those tasks where I seem to get the most scratches unless I pay very close
attention when I move a skin around on my "C" tool and I would dearly like
to eliminate this problem.
I had read about this technique in the RVator reprints from Avery but I
assume that one shouldn't dimple over the paper. I figured that it would be
too much trouble considering this dimpling issue.
-----
Bill Pace Life is not so much an adventure
billp(at)doctord.com as it is a paycheck.
Voice: (619) 457-4196
Fax: (619) 457-1168
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> I started flying in gliders and the "throttle" (spoilers) are on the left
> side. Most tandem seat acro trainers also have this setup. I also feel more
> comfortable with the stick in my right hand. I considered installing a dual
> control throttle. A cable arrangement is what I decided would be best from
> a pounds point. The only problem that I have is that things like this tend
> to get more complicated than one would think. When it comes to airplanes I
> like simple. If you come up with a solution be sure to let us know.
If you want the throttle on the left, wouldn't it make sense to just make
the right seat the pilot's seat? I've seen RV-6's this way before. It seems
a lot simpler than dual throttle controls or anything like that. Nothing
says you have to sit on the left - that's one of the benefits of building
it your self. Just a thought...
BTW - my left wing is FINALLY done (don't ask how long I've been working
at it)! Ah, the simple pleasures of life...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com (Alex Munro) |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Simulators |
I am extremely interested. I just picked up Air Warrior from an FTP site
last week. It is very similar to the description of Confirmed Kill, and is
also an on-line game.
However I am always intersted in a good simulator.
Your right, a dog fight is quite a rush. The other night I mixed it up with
another plane for over 20 minutes. While we were often close enough that
you could have given each other the finger, neither one of us could get a
shot off.
Please "mail" me details.
>
>If at least one person is interested in this just post your interest and
>I'll post the instructions for getting involved. (remember its free until
>the simulator is released on the market)
>
>Right now, If you don't have at least a Pentium 60, it's not worth trying.
>
>In the next couple of days, they will have a version that handles a 486-33
>just fine.
>
>The Sim supports screen resolutions from 320x200 to 1024x768!!!!
>
>-Steve Day
>sday(at)pharmcomp.com
>(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
Regarding the left/right throttle discussion:
People feel comfortable with what they are used to. But unless you have
had some time flying a particular configuration, I would be hesitant to
decide you are never going to like it. I'll bet it would be a lot
easier to get used to a new configuration than to deal with building up
something special in your RV, not to mention the hassles with having a
passenger take the controls, or the potential reduction in resale value
for a non-"standard" RV configuration.
I learned how to fly in Cessnas. I then took up taildraggers, both
Champs and T-craft. I currently fly a Citabria (stick in right hand,
throttle in left). I have about 20 hours of left seat time in RV-6/
6As. I have never found it to take long before a new configuration
feels natural, and once I'm used to a particular configuration, it
takes no time at all to switch to a different one that I am also used
to. I can climb out of the Citabria and into a Cessna or RV and feel
right at home (well almost, 20 hours isn't much).
Of course everyone can and should build their RV the way they like it,
but in my opinion the standard configuration works, so why mess with it.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:32:35 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Curt Reimer <MBnet.MB.CA!Curt_Reimer(at)matronics.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: lefty throttle
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
>
> > I started flying in gliders and the "throttle" (spoilers) are on the left
> > side. Most tandem seat acro trainers also have this setup. I also feel more
> > comfortable with the stick in my right hand. I considered installing a dual
> > control throttle. A cable arrangement is what I decided would be best from
> > a pounds point. The only problem that I have is that things like this tend
> > to get more complicated than one would think. When it comes to airplanes I
> > like simple. If you come up with a solution be sure to let us know.
>
> I am also thinking of a left hand throttle in my -6, assuming that it
> works out ergonomically (I havn't started my fuse yet). I have seen a
> Zenair side-by-side with dual throttles. They were knob-and-cable tpye,
> like a Cessna. I think the most difficult issue would be the friction
> lock. You obviously couldn't use vernier cables as one throttle would
> lock the other. I was thinking of a throttle lever on the left side and a
> knob throttle in
> the middle, with the friction lock removed or disabled from the knob, so
> that the friction lock of the lever would control the whole system. I
> would either connect both cables to the carburettor directly, if
> possible, or else connect them to an intermediate bellcrank of some sort,
> but this starts adding weight, complexity, etc.
>
> Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Simulators |
Tell us how Steve.
>During all the talk about G force warning systems aerobatic maneuvers and
>whatever else talked about in that last couple of days, I thought some of
>you might be interested in a fantastic new simulator that is available right
>now for FREE on your PC. This simulator is for those of you who like a good
>dogfight. If you are interested, read on...
>
> The simulator is called Confirmed Kill and is played online with the
>Internet. The system can handle up to 500 simultaneous playes. The reason
>it is free, is because right now the simulator is in the Beta stages and
>they welcome people to come on board and give it a try. (Especially the
>real pilot types) What this sim offers is right now is the selection of the
>following aircraft: F4U, P-51 'Mustang', Zero, P-38 'Lightning', Spitfire,
>Me109, P-39. As the game progresses they will be adding support for about
>50 other WWII aircraft including the Me262 (jet).
>
>You might be wondering just how realistic the simulator is? This is what I
>asked, since I've been trying simulators since the Apple II days. This is
>one of the few simulators for PC's that use force models. In simple terms
>this means is a very realistic representation of flight qualities. Most
>flight simulators use tables that say, if plane is traveling at speed X, it
>behaves in this fashion etc etc. Not very dynamic. A force model uses
>simple calculations of drag at given altitudes and forces from thrust. Fuel,
>ammo weight, Gear drag etc.. Granted this is not a full blown wind tunnel
>on your PC, but you can simplify the complexities of wind tunnel
>calculations and get a fair representation of flight. High speed stalls,
>tail slides, knife edge flight. You have to compensate for engine torque
>and P-factor. (you can even buy Rudders, throttles etc. if you get really
>hooked) Right now the planes in CK aren't locked into the final flight
>models, (some of the aircraft are horrible), but The P-38 and Zeke are
>pretty good. The P-38 handles Energy a little too well, and the Zeke is a
>bit too tough, but each release fixes problems.
>
> When I said dogfighting, you would be absolutely amazed at the
>adrenaline rush you can get on a simulator!! Fighting against other human
>beings is a lot of fun. You get a pretty nice idea of what can happen in
>aerobatics if you aren't careful. Take the P-51 near 500mph and you'll
>enter compression, and more than likely auger into the ground. The system
>handles blackouts, grey outs, red-outs etc... It also has one of those
>progressive sounding AOA indicators. (audible alarm, kinda like the audible
>G meter suggested in previous discussions)
>
> The damage model is also fairly realistic, (it's getting better with
>each release). If a round comes through the canopy, you'll probably be
>killed in flight. If the lead punctures the fuel tank, you'll either
>explode or be leaking fuel. Engines get knocked out during head ons etc.
>You can even shoot someones wing off, and watch the aircraft go spiraling
>out of control. Load up with fuel fuel and ordinance and you'll take up the
>entire runway and then some. Fly a P-51 below 200mph and you have one
>squirly machine. All in all they did a respectable job. (And this is
>coming from someone who has never been impressed with a PC based flight sim)
>Flight sim 5 is the best I've flown, but a bit boring to me. I think CK
>appeals to the testosterone in me.
>
>If at least one person is interested in this just post your interest and
>I'll post the instructions for getting involved. (remember its free until
>the simulator is released on the market)
>
>Right now, If you don't have at least a Pentium 60, it's not worth trying.
>
>In the next couple of days, they will have a version that handles a 486-33
>just fine.
>
>The Sim supports screen resolutions from 320x200 to 1024x768!!!!
>
>-Steve Day
>sday(at)pharmcomp.com
>(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | lefty throttle (fwd) |
>
> I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left side of the
> RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control (electric only)
> there, too.
>
> An immediate reason for not doing it... I become incapacitated and my
> right-side passenger has to fly. It would be awkward (at best) for
> him or her.
>
> Though I haven't had any experience with this, it just seems "right"
> to keep the stick in my right hand....
I learned to fly tail dragers in a Luscombe 8A which is side by side
with a stick and had the throttle in the center. You fly it with your
left hand on the stick and right hand on the throttle. I was very comfortable
with that as I started flying in a Cessna 150 and it was very similar,
except a stick instead of control wheel.
When I started flying biplanes (Acro Sport and Pitts), I thought I would
not like the throttle on the left and the stick in the right hand.
However, you adapt quickly and now that seams 'normal'.
So, I think you should not worry about the throttle in the center as you
will adapt to it quickly. If you every sell the plane, that is also
the most common location for side-by-side so anything different will be
viewed as unusual.
Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Still more g-load chatter |
Steve johnson said (in part):
> One thing
> that hasn't been mentioned so far is turbulance. It's fairly easy for 5 G's
> to become 6 if the air isn't smooth as glass.
>
Good point! In fact, it's not unheard of for ONE G to become FOUR Gs --
I hit a 3.5 G "bump" recently, flying in otherwise light turbulence
over mountains. Don Wentz told me he once hit a FOUR G bump, in
otherwise perfectly smooth air, as he crossed the low hills between
Scappooose and Hillsboro. That'll wake you up for sure!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Simulators |
You wrote:
>
>During all the talk about G force warning systems aerobatic maneuvers
and
>whatever else talked about in that last couple of days, I thought some
of
>you might be interested in a fantastic new simulator that is available
right
>now for FREE on your PC. This simulator is for those of you who like
a good
>dogfight. If you are interested, read on...
>
..and so on and so on ...
>-Steve Day
>sday(at)pharmcomp.com
>(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
>
Did I miss something or did you omit telling how to get to the doggone
simulator? For crying out loud, let us in on it!!
Bill Costello
ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
You wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>I'm a 53 year old who's been flying since age 16. 2000+ hours, mostly
in
>Citabria 7ECA. I can see where I will have the time and money to get
started
>on a plane in a few years - kid just getting started in college next
year.
>Thanks for letting me listen in.
>
>Steve Johnson
>
>spjohnson(at)mmm.com
>
Welcome to the group Steve. But with 2000+ hours, don't just listen.
Give us the benefit of your experience!
Bill Costello
RV-6 on right elevator
Chicago
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
| Subject: | ProSealing tank baffle |
Text item:
>I'm following George Orndorff's procedure for prosealing my tank
and I just put
>on the back baffle. I've installed my wood pins to seal the skin
to the baffle
>above the rivet line and it occured to me that I after smearing seal over the
>shop heads of the 3/32 rivets and with the sealant oozing out under
the wooden
>pins it's going to be tough to get the baffle over the spar flange
where all my
>nutplates are. If there is sealant on the baffle flange in the area where the
>csk #8 screws attach to the spar flange won't it be tough to get a good fit?
>Will the tank stick to the spar? Do I have to remove the sealant
from the tank
>baffle above the 3/32 rivet line? Will the wooden pins come off the
baffle once
>the sealant cures? Does any of this make sense?
Good point, I'm just about ready to start some Pro-Seal evenings myself and
my shop heads are basicall touching the spar flange. If I add a layer of
goop, I will surely have to trim that spar flange by a 1/16". Is that doable?
I am in need of the same help as you. Please, someone educate us. :-)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
Scalloping the spar flange is the way to go. You have to transfer the rivet
locations onto the flange, but filing the flanges with a rasp only took 30 mins
or so. And masking off areas beforehand is much easier than taking pro-seal off
afterward. I don't remember having the luxury of couple of days of "uncured"
pro-seal. It was about 90F in the garage and I made sure I cleaned up everything
before retiring for the evening. Pulling the masking tape off about 3-4 hours
after mixing the Pro-Seal seemed optimal.
And is everybody putting in the doubler by the wing root rib where the fuselage
attach Al angle mounts. I didn't, and I probably will not, but it is on the
latest plans.
rich klee
6a-fuselage
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: RV-List: ProSealing tank baffle
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 08:47 PDT
From: pharmcomp.com!sday(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manifold pressure question |
>
> OK, a general question regarding Manifold Pressure.
>
> Just what is that measurement, and what is it relative to?
>
> Thanks.
>
> - Alan
It measures the pressure in the manifold, of course :).
A MP guage will show the normal atmospheric pressure with the
engine off. I.E. 29.92 inches of Hg. for example.
Therefore the MP is measuring the pressure of the air in the
manifold relative to zero pressure.
When you start the engine and it is idleing, there is a
high 'vacume' in the manifold so the MP will show a low reading,
lets say 12 to 14 inches. This is due to the pistons trying
to suck in air but the carb throttle plate is closed and is
restricting air, so you get a 'vacume'.
If you don't have a low reading at idle, then you have a leak
somewhere in the intake system or you have a week set of Jugs.
If it bounces around a lot, maybe you have one poor cylinder.
As you open the throttle, you now have a lot more air going
into the manifold so the MP goes up. It will usually never
go back up to atmospheric pressure as the engine is sucking it
in as fast as it can.
As you climb to altitude, the MP will also drop.
If you have turobo charging or super charging, then you can
get the MP to exceed atmospheric pressure. For example, the
waste gate may limit max MP to 34 inches or some such number.
With a CS prop, you can open the throttle all the way open
and allow the engine to breathe easier and then control the
RPM with the pitch of the prop.
What am I talking about, I don't have a plane with a MP guage.
Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
Bill Pace , rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: | Re: How to Save the skins |
Bill
The shelf paper is clear and I write on it mark it and drill
right through it. I also just dimple with the paper on and before
riveting I use a hand held deburr tool (as seen in the Orndorff wing
videos) and do precisely two complete turns. This cleans out most of the
shelf paper in the dimpled hole before I rivet. Once the completed
section is riveted I store the whole thing with the shelf paper still on
it. The paper is not really paper but thin plasic. I gives good
protection from small scratches but won't do a thing for you when you
drop your bucking bar on the aluminum. (Of course I've never done this,
and hope not to do it again!!). No problem with scratches from the C-tool
and if you counter sink, the countersink will clean out all of the
plastic. So far I have not had any problems with this technique.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Bill Pace wrote:
> >Bill
> > As soon as I get the skins out of the box I put clear shelf paper
> >on them. This is thick enough to provide some protection, does a good
> >job and is easy to get off without any residue. In the wing kit, the
> >skins come with a factory protectant that does the same job.
> >
> >Bob Busick
> >RV-6
> >
>
> Bob,
>
> I meant to write to you earlier to thank you for your response. With regard
> to the shelf paper method, I imagine that you just drill through it, but how
> do you deal with dimpling or countersinking? Do you just avoid applying any
> paper in areas where you expect to do these things? Dimpling is one of
> those tasks where I seem to get the most scratches unless I pay very close
> attention when I move a skin around on my "C" tool and I would dearly like
> to eliminate this problem.
>
> I had read about this technique in the RVator reprints from Avery but I
> assume that one shouldn't dimple over the paper. I figured that it would be
> too much trouble considering this dimpling issue.
>
>
> -----
> Bill Pace Life is not so much an adventure
> billp(at)doctord.com as it is a paycheck.
> Voice: (619) 457-4196
> Fax: (619) 457-1168
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Balistic parachutes |
I have not seen any RV's with balistic parachutes.
BTW, Second Chantz has converted their "balistic" parachutes to
use compressed air to blast the chute out.
They said that the explosive was a real problem having to ship it
and having the customer to send it back every few years, etc.
I got some info from Second Chantz when I presented at our local EAA
meeting on parchutes (mainly pilot emergency rigs).
Second Chantz (?sp) had some interesting stories on acutal saves
that were documented. Most are on ultralights. There, they have to
deal with the lines going thru the prop as many have pusher engines.
They appear to use a pair of steel cables for the first 10 ft. or so.
For a RV, I think you would have to mount in the fuselage in the baggage
area or just behind the baggage area just under the fuselage skin.
This would shift the CG aft. If it was in the baggage area, it would
reduce the total baggage weight allowed.
I think the attach cables would have to be routed so that they would
be secured to the main spar center secion. I don't know how to
route the cables to do that, but I think it would have to be attached
to the main spar somehow. Anywhere else could tear thru the aluminum.
The problem would be with the cute opening the cables would pull up
thru the cockpit and might do bodly harm to pilot and passenger.
This is much easer to solve on a high wing aircraft.
On a RV3 or 4, you could route these cables along the top longeron
stiffners in the cockpit (hide them under some cloth or plastic)
and then down to the main spar at the main 404 bulkhead.
When the cute would open, it would tear off the canopy as these lines
are pulled tight. Small price to pay.
Herman
>
>
> Do any RVers have BRS ballistic parachutes? I was wondering just
> how hard it would be to add this to the design, and where you
> could add it without messing up the cg.
>
> -Bryan
>
> --
> Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG
> Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Richard Chandler <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
> If you want the throttle on the left, wouldn't it make sense to just
> make the right seat the pilot's seat? I've seen RV-6's this way before.
> It seems a lot simpler than dual throttle controls or anything like
> that. Nothing says you have to sit on the left - that's one of
> the benefits of building it your self. Just a thought...
Actually, aside from the habits formed by left hand drive cars, there's also
the matter of visibility in the pattern. Most US airfields have a left hand
landing pattern (I can't vouch for Europe, but I don't see why it's
different).
It is an interesting transition. I learned in a TaylorCraft and a C-150. I
held the yoke with my left hand and the throttle with my right. Then I tried
out the Aeronca Champ, with a stick and the throttle on the left. I don't
have a real strong stick in the right hand habit built up yet. Who knows.
Hey, thinking about that flap/trim discussion from a while ago, how about a
servo operated throttle?
Put down that bucking bar! It was a joke! Aieeee!
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com (hsutphin) |
| Subject: | Re: Flight Simulators |
I just looked up the home page on the net, it will be $2 per hour plus
$10/month to sign up for CK...I think I'll spend mine on the RV and staying
current while I'm building. Seems a bit steep for an online game, that can
only be run thru Telnet. Now's the time to try tho, free during the Beta Test
Harold
RV6A
>Tell us how Steve.
>>dogfight. If you are interested, read on...
>>
>> The simulator is called Confirmed Kill and is played online with the
>>Internet. The system can handle up to 500 simultaneous playes. The reason
>>it is free, is because right now the simulator is in the Beta stages and
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
I need to shoot some vari-prime. Any recommendations on PSI, surface prep.,
would be appreciated
Thanks
Howard Kidwell
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
_ >
>Nice dogfight. I'll just throw in my two cents on the G warning.
>As discussed, we are making this way too complicated. If there is gonig
>to be a warning,it should go off at 6gs. If the warning goes off, you
>immediately LET GO! Forget the Glasair.
>
>6gs is the limit. Van did not pick that number out of a hat.
>See you tonight..
>
>John
NO! NO! NO! DO NOT LET GO!!!! Just ease off a bit on the stick
force. If you have trimmed the aircraft in slightly negative to max
negative direction, you will put your noggin thru the canopy.
Jerry Walker, working on the left aileron bell crank!!!
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
__>
>
>> I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left
side of the
>
>> RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control
(electric only)
>
I have personally seen the C-130 in fingertip and have flown Lears
in fingertip formation. You can easily learn to fly using either hand
on the stick/yoke and throttle. Just fly it the way it exists.
Jerry Walker
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Kerrville Fly-In |
Is anyone on the list planning on going to the EAA Southwest Regional Fly-In
at Kerrville, Texas this year? It's October 20, 21, and 22d.
I need to show my wife some completed 6's and convince her that we cannot
survive without one.
Ben Armstrong
(Wannabe 6 Builder)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- Flight Simulat |
Reply to: RE>>RV-List: Flight Simulators
Steve, please send details on the sim.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
Reply to: G LIMITS
I think you folks are now starting to see the problem with the light/aural G
meter. It is only concerened about PISF (PILOT induced structural failure).
Why not protect against ALL CAUSES OF FAILURE.
If I intercept that mallard at 200 kts (subtract15 duck kts if he is going the
same way) I'm just not going to appreciate that light stating the obvious on
my way down. How about CAT (clear air turbluence), a mid-air collision, or
prop/engine failure causing loss of parts and the unrecoverable cg changes.
Granted, how many of these things were there last year. However, if you want
any chance to survive ALL structural failures (regardless of cause) - a
balistic chute is your only hope.
Keep an open mind - give me a chance, more chute info later.
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Cockpit set-up - left throttle |
RV-listers,
..... after much internal debate (at least I don't lose any
arguments with myself!) I have decided that I too want a left
throttle/right stick arrangement. As early poster noted, gliders come this
way (I have more glider hours - 800 hours with a real stick - than power
hours at this time) .... but what he didn't mention is that the few
side-by-side gliders that exist are actually set up for right side pilots
(and some helicopters too I believe, if they have a single collective lever
in the center).
I decided the easiest way do do this is to make my RV6A a right
pilot set up. A few simple modifications should allow this, and if I ever
want to sell, it will only need a new instrument panel made up to revert
back to the normal spam-can setup. What I have done, or am planning is the
following:-
1. Make both sticks removeable. Both of my sticks are now 1 inch diam.,
and slide into L & R bases similar to the Wd-611 weldment. I used a short
internal 4130 sleeve in the sticks and 4 rosette welds to hold this sleeve
in place. Both will get PTT switches built in. For flight purposes, only
one stick will be removed at a time :^)
2. I bought Vans right side brakes option, but am going to use -3
metal-braided teflon hose between the two sets of actuators instead of the
Nylaflow tubing for increased reliability.
3. I will leave the canopy latch assy. on the left side (I'm building a
tip-up) since it's easy enough to reach across the cockpit. The overhead
canopy latch will act as a safety back-up if a dumb passenger opens the
side latch in flight!
4. I will move the canopy jettison actuator mount channel to the
centerline of the F-668 sub-panel. This should just about give enough room
for a 6.25 inch radio stack to be installed to either the left or the right
of the center. I am assuming that my radios will be longer than 6 inches
:^) and that this sub-panel will have to be drastically cut away for the
radio stack. The plans/instructions give no mention of this, perhaps one
of the flying guys with a tip-up canopy can give more information on this?
The future Terra remote-head avionics might remove this problem.
5. Since I have electric trim, I am omitting the instrument panel central
"pillar" and will mount the throttle/mixture/carb. heat on a small
horizontal sub-panel under the center of the instrument panel. With the
newer hanging rudder pedals, I think this give the cockpit a very 'clean'
look, with a flat, uncluttered floor (except for the -6a gear leg mounts).
6. Steps on both sides ... see the earlier nose/tail wheel postings :^)
7. I will allow enough slack in the instrument hoses and wires so that
they can be located on the other side of the panel at some future date if
needed.
I believe the above changes will give me the ability to get a left
throttle/right stick arrangement that can be easily reversed in the future
by just fabricating a new instrument panel.
I welcome any sensible comments and am particularly looking for any
"gotchas" that might pop up, or items I may have overlooked.
... thanks for any help ..... Gil Alexander
PS. one of the Oshkosh Champion planes a few years ago (Glasair?) was set
up for a right seat pilot.
PPS. I checked FAR 23 to see if there was any requirement for certified
aircraft to be flown from the left seat. There is not, and it even
specifies the order of the engine controls on the panel.
PPS. I'm definitely not a lefty. Last time I tried drilling with my left
hand, I made a #41 hole in my right thumb nail! Funny enough, it didn't
even hurt.
>On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
>> I started flying in gliders and the "throttle" (spoilers) are on the left
>> side. Most tandem seat acro trainers also have this setup. I also feel more
>> comfortable with the stick in my right hand. I considered installing a dual
>> control throttle. A cable arrangement is what I decided would be best from
>> a pounds point. The only problem that I have is that things like this tend
>> to get more complicated than one would think. When it comes to airplanes I
>> like simple. If you come up with a solution be sure to let us know.
>
>If you want the throttle on the left, wouldn't it make sense to just make
>the right seat the pilot's seat? I've seen RV-6's this way before. It seems
>a lot simpler than dual throttle controls or anything like that. Nothing
>says you have to sit on the left - that's one of the benefits of building
>it your self. Just a thought...
>
>
>Tom Goeddel
>RV-6a
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING PARACHUTE STUFF
Now that the ejection seat has been thoroughly thrashed - what' so good about
a chute? Well... its affordable, it WILL work and the development,
engineering, and learning-curve have been paid for by someone else - ain't
that special!
I'm not minimizing the heartburn necessary to adapt to a rv-n but look at the
facts. If only 10% of you builders find merit in the idea - thats a lot of
good ideas and market potential. So no sermon - just the facts - you be the
judge.
(1) Forget the speed limit stuff. A chute can easily survive 2X any speed the
rv will ever see. BRS and Cirrus are both engaged in adapting a chute to the
SR-20. The current deployment speed limit is 200kts (not mph)! That plane
will gross at 2900 lbs! Sure there is development to do but you are NOT PAYING
for it! I saw the Cirrus mock-up at AOPA, Palm Springs last year and those
folks are serious. Some astute engineering and thought has been given to
load-paths and survivability.
Consider that chute deployment on a top fuel dragster pulls a momentary 12 g's
on a 2050lb vehicle traveling 312 MPH! Of 4,000 passes last year (top fuel
only) I never heard of ONE chute failure! If you add other classes (all
greater than 250 mph) there was probably 6,000 MORE deployments with NO
failures! (data available on request). So forget the materials problem - it
is irrelevant - a parachute can EASILY SURVIVE rv cracking velocities!
Yep, load path, structure, packaging, cg, are all critical but why continue if
you all think it is hopless. It isn't... so more facts later. I'll wrap it
up in the next letter.
Elon (-8wannabe)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
I've put a lefty throttle and mixture on my soon to fly 6a. I did this after
careful consideration and seeing it done quite efectively on the AirBeetle. I
will be adding a centre throttle only (no mixture). This can be done very
easily using a bracket at the business end of the cables. It also helps to use
the lowest friction cables you can get, and as someone pointed out, NO
vernier.
The only thing I really had to overcome was the friction control on the
throttle quadrant...it tended to get in the way of the left knee. I reversed
this and put the friction control on the back side of the quadrant, now its
out of the way but just a little more difficult to get to.
Ken
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manifold pressure question |
Herman's description of MP is good, but I'd like to add a note of
clarification which did not come out, for those uninitiated. With the engine
OFF, the gage will read the local current barometric pressure, not corrected
to sea level. E.G. in Denver on a standard day it would read approximately
24.92 "Hg, assuming no boost. Welcome to pressure altitude!
Jim Stugart,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Wanted |
I have a RV6A for sale 265 TT 0320 w/ cs prop $65,000 you can call me at 301
293-1505 .George or Becki Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
If you learned to fly in a tandem you had the stick in your right and
the throttle in your left. It is the other way around in most side by
side aircraft. North american cars too if you consider the manual
transmission lever as equivalent to the power controls.
The issue comes down to the handedness and preference of the pilot.
There is no "right" or otherwise about it.
I am quite happy to sit on the left with the throttle in my right
hand. My dextral friends will be quite comfortable when they come for
a ride.
Sinistral in Toronto
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: lefty throttle
Date: 12/10/95 15:56
>
> I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left side of the
> RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control (electric only)
> there, too.
>
> An immediate reason for not doing it... I become incapacitated and my
> right-side passenger has to fly. It would be awkward (at best) for
> him or her.
>
> Though I haven't had any experience with this, it just seems "right"
> to keep the stick in my right hand....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
Howard,
Wipe your surfaces down with Coleman lantern fluid. We found this gives
a cleaner surface than laquer thinner. We use about 45# for our spray gun.
This varies from gun to gun, check the specs with the gun. You will be
spraying a very thin coat. If you have pen marks on the aluminum that
survive the Coleman, you should be able to read the marks through the
vari-prime. ***And, be sure to wear a respirator***
Becki Orndorff
>I need to shoot some vari-prime. Any recommendations on PSI, surface prep.,
>would be appreciated
>
>Thanks
>Howard Kidwell
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Kerrville Fly-In |
Ben:
I'm a builder so I want have a plane there, but unless we have a bad weather
day like last, there will be quite a few Rv's there, a forum usually by a
Vans employee, and they give demo rides. I would recommend getting there
early, 0900, and get your name on the list. Come on out. It's good times
and good people.
Howard Kidwell
Howard RV(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
You mind sharing your schematic for this jewel?
>>
>
>I am currently using the Analog Devices (ADXL50JH) 0-50g
>accelerometer in my Rv6a. I designed a multifunctional unit
>using a 20 character by 2 line LCD display, a Signetics
>microcontroller, a real time clock and two serial Analog to
>digital converters. My unit has different modes, One of which
>is the accelerometer, it has a real time display and it
>records a displays min and max g's, it resolution is 1/10 of
>a g and has a range of +/- 0-10 g's. It has a voltage mode,
>sensing battery voltage. It has a temperature mode sensing
>inside & outside temperatures displaying them in C or F. It
>has an elapse timer that can be reset at any time. This unit
>could be used for egt and cht with additional circuitry.
>
>Terry
>Terry Dyer
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 571-2507
DOD Program Manager PAGE: (800) 719-1246
FORE Systems ALT TEL: (703) 478-9603
6905 Rockledge Drive FAX: (301) 564-4408
Suite 800
Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com
Check out our WEB page: http://www.fore.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Laboyteaux(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | personal info for Laboyteaux(at)aol.com |
My name is Mark LaBoyteaux and I'm building an RV-6a. I started
construction in October of '93. I have completed the tail and wing sections,
and have the fuselage jigged
and I am starting to attach the aft skins.
I am currently employed with American Airlines as an avionics maintenance
technician.
I am a licensed A&P and private pilot. I found out about this rv-list on
John Hovans home page on the internet.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
thanks to all for the explanation. I just needed a confirmation of the
workings of one of these things so I can understand the overallo system and
use of a CS prop.
Cheers!
- Alan
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | RV-4 fuselage jig available |
I have built an all metal (4" channel) fuselage jig for my RV-4,
it is available now for anyone who would like to borrow it in the
Albuquerque, NM area, just give me a call. This thing is simple and
worked well for me!
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933
(505) 889-7241 work
(505) 275-3179 home
Albuquerque,NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: lefty throttle |
> If you want the throttle on the left, wouldn't it make sense to just make
> the right seat the pilot's seat? >
> Tom Goeddel
> RV-6a
>
That would seem to be the simple solution.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
Becky:
Thanks for the info--enjoy your tapes!!!!!!
Glad to see you talk about a respiratior. Not enough written about the
dangers of isocynates. Most think a standard cartridge mask is fine.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ek_richard_miller <miller(at)cesd.servtech.com> |
Guys, this program sim sounds exactly like the Airwarrior game of Genie's
except for the bombers!!I want to try and get CK for my puter except I
have no slip connection to the net..UUGGHH!!!text only!!But anyway,I know
the excitment of this type of sim and hope err wish all of you try it if
its free!!!Also does anyone have info on the size and weight of the
packaging of the RV 4? I would greatly appreciate it!!
R.Miller
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
What sort of respirator should I use for Zinc Oxide primers?
Thanks,
Brad Hamlin
RV4 Empennage kit
Walpole, MA
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
| Subject: | Copperstate fly-in |
Bob, where are you in chandler?? I'm there too. What state is your project
in??
chris krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Fuel Tanks and Spar Flange |
With all this talk about filing to make room for tank rivets etc, I
thought I would remined everyone about an article writen by Van in the
Dec. 1993 RVator. He cautions strongly against doing anything which
would scratch, nick, etc the spar flange strips. Here is part of that
article.
Van writes, Dec. 1993
"Lately we have had a number of questions about damaged spar flange
strips. Builders have slipped while tapering the strips on a saw, or
have accidentally drilled holes through the spar web into the edges of
the flange strips on the other side. One builder decided that he would
extend the rear row of screws attaching the fuel tank all the way to
the fusealage, so he ground several notches in the flange strip to make
room for nutplates. Oh, boy! Anyone for a nice game of Russian
Roulette? Anytime a seemingly minor glitch occurs on a spar it is like
a lifeline cable in the suspense movie; another strand has just
broken."
"Do NOT arbitarily grind away anything on the spar flange strips.
Repairing a damaged flange strip is impossible: you can't just weld a
hole closed or daub a patch over it."
"Don't arbitrarily do anything to the spar which isn't in the
instructions."
Be careful out there!!!!
Ross Mickey RV6-A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING PARACHUTE STUFF
Now that the ejection seat has been thoroughly thrashed - what' so good about
a chute? Well... its affordable, it WILL work and the development,
engineering, and learning-curve have been paid for by someone else - ain't
that special!
I'm not minimizing the heartburn necessary to adapt to a rv-n but look at the
facts. If only 10% of you builders find merit in the idea - thats a lot of
good ideas and market potential. So no sermon - just the facts - you be the
judge.
(1) Forget the speed limit stuff. A chute can easily survive 2X any speed the
rv will ever see. BRS and Cirrus are both engaged in adapting a chute to the
SR-20. The current deployment speed limit is 200kts (not mph)! That plane
will gross at 2900 lbs! Sure there is development to do but you are NOT PAYING
for it! I saw the Cirrus mock-up at AOPA, Palm Springs last year and those
folks are serious. Some astute engineering and thought has been given to
load-paths and survivability.
Consider that chute deployment on a top fuel dragster pulls a momentary 12 g's
on a 2050lb vehicle traveling 312 MPH! Of 4,000 passes last year (top fuel
only) I never heard of ONE chute failure! If you add other classes (all
greater than 250 mph) there was probably 6,000 MORE deployments with NO
failures! (data available on request). So forget the materials problem - it
is irrelevant - a parachute can EASILY SURVIVE rv cracking velocities!
Yep, load path, structure, packaging, cg, are all critical but why continue if
you all think it is hopless. It isn't... so more facts later. I'll wrap it
up in the next letter.
Elon (-8wannabe)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING CHUTE FACT NO.2
The BRS parachute STC'd (yep a real stc folks) for the C-152 has a certified
deployment speed of 145 MPH. The entire package with the fiberglass housing
weighs 42 lbs. It can be made lighter with creative packaging. It is attached
to both of the carry-throughs in such a manner that if deployed most of the
load is through the front carry-through (putting the cg BEHIND) and therefore
pitching up the aircraft at a 70 degree angle. Nice touch - your going down,
tail first - might help dissipate some of the stopping energy! The design and
demonstrated sink rate is 21-24 feet per second. ouch! - your butt is going to
have more colors than my screen saver.
Van has contacted the company in the past and had promised to send reduced
prints to them (but they never got there). Van has stated that due to cg
considerations the unit would have to be mounted forward of the cockpit. BRS
has stated that they plan to follow up with Van. They also indicated that of
all the aircraft requests they get from all over the world - the greatest
amount are from RV owners!.
OK, so there are major problems incorporating it in an RV. But think of it -
this is a real STC and it works. No RV is that far out of the envelope! The
Cirrus design is far more severe than any RV and its going to be certified.
Your not re-inventing the wheel and the majority of the development costs have
been paid by others. Obviously, one RV'r (or the company) can't afford the
costs of a one-off rv design - but the company has indicated that the numbers
don't have to be that large to justify the expense. I don't know the numbers
but I guess with a potential 30,40,50 sales you would get a very responsive
company willing to share costs. What percentage of RV owners is that!
Thanks for listening and sharing - I never thought I would learn so much from
the tube!
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
at work.
Real quick, you need a shell account with an Internet provider. NOT SLIP or
PPP (those won't work) It is stand alone and requires that you have the
ability to telnet out.
Be back with more details in about an hours or two.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
To be absolutely certain, check the product for the respiratory protection
requirements. In general, a respirator that covers the lower portion of
your face is used with filters rated for enamel paints, laquers and their
vapors. With the mask on, you should not be able to smell the product.
Beards sometimes interfer with the respirator which then becomes a personal
decision as to how much your respiratory safety is worth to you.
>What sort of respirator should I use for Zinc Oxide primers?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Brad Hamlin
>
>RV4 Empennage kit
>Walpole, MA
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | Variprime/MAsk??? |
Isocya..what? Cartridge mask not enough huh??? Am I gonna die?
How about a little more detail on the "dangers" of Variprime and use of
respirators please?
I thought you only needed a respirator for that Imron/plastic paint.
thanks
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 303FS, Whiteman AFB, MO, |
DSN 975-3620 or 3489)
| Subject: | Chutes, throttles, et. al (chatter) |
RVers...
I've read all of the posts about ejection seats (I've used one, worked
great, thank you very much!), G-alarms, lefty throttles, and Ballistic
Recovery Systems (BRS). As with most fighter pilots, I have an opinion on
each subject, which I will be happy to share with you. (I hope you're happy
to read them.)
Ejection Seats - great idea, but good luck getting one in a homebuilt. I used
an ACES II, the McDonnell-Douglas brand. It worked great, but talk about heavy
and complex! I doubt you'd even come close to the reliability required in
something which would fit in an RV.
G-alarms - most over-Gs I've seen have occurred during air-to-air combat
missions, either when rolling the aircraft while under G (assymetrical Gs) or
when flying through the other guy's jetwash (wake turbulence). A few years
ago, F-15s were grounded while they were all inspected for broken spars, and
several were found. As others have said, you've GOT to be careful when
rolling and pulling. Going through turbulence will almost always put an
instantaneous G increase on the airframe, depending on how many Gs you were
pulling as you went through it. Your body may just feel a "bump" but I
guarantee the airframe felt every bit of it! Bottom line: if you're pulling
symmetrical Gs, where a G alarm would work most effectively, you'd be just as
well served watching the G meter. I just don't see the alarm being any good
except for telling you, "Hey, hamfist! You just over-G'd this thing!" At that
point, it's too late. The alarm doesn't know that you're about to over-pull,
roll, or go through turbulence.
Lefty throttle(s) - I have over 4,300 hours, about 3,300 of which in military
jets with left throttles and right sticks. The other 1,000 hours is GA
aircraft (C-150s to Beech D-18s) with left yoke, right throttle(s). I prefer
left throttle, right stick, and the left seat for PIC. As Van said in the
RVator, most people find it more "natural" this way; when I asked him about
it this year at Oshkosh, he suggested the right seat option. His concern was
stick/throttle quadrant interference. I asked him if he'd seen Lyle Hefel's -
6 which was one of the best -6s ever built (IMHO) and has a classic 3-control
throttle quadrant (throttle, prop, & mixture), and he hadn't noticed the
configuration. Van has included a sketch of a left throttle quadrant in the
RVator which I saw in the "14 Years of the RVator" so he's aware of it being
done. Bottom line: I like the -6 and the -8. If my wife will live with the
-8, no problem. If she prefers the -6, I'm going with the left throttle.
BRS - I read in the RVator that Van's opinion is there might be three
situations where this might be valuable: trapped in IMC without a way down
and gas dwindling at a great rate; over the mountains with an engine failure;
some structural problem which would still allow deployment of the parachute.
[I'm paraphrasing here...might be wrong on the last one.] Otherwise, he
didn't think it was worth the weight penalty in 1) carrying the system and 2)
beefing up the structure to use it. I would agree with him in this, only
because I think the odds are SO rare that you'd ever need it, it isn't worth
carrying. You probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than you
would of actually needing (much less successfully using) a BRS. Of course, it
would be great to have if you ever did need it. Bottom line: I'm going to do
my best to try to avoid placing myself in a situation where that might be a
player.
Anyone else have an opinion?
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
Variprime, Marhyde, ..., have an acid-etch aspect - definitely not
good stuff to breathe and the normal cartridge respirators aren't
sufficient.
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: Variprime/MAsk???
Date: 10/13/95 3:34 PM
Isocya..what? Cartridge mask not enough huh??? Am I gonna die?
How about a little more detail on the "dangers" of Variprime and use of
respirators please?
I thought you only needed a respirator for that Imron/plastic paint.
thanks
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Balistic parachutes |
> I have not seen any RV's with balistic parachutes.
>I had a ballistic parachgute on an Ultralight (a Challenger) and I think the
concept is excellant. The cost was high, but I felt that if it saved my life
only once, it would have paid for itself. To bring it into Canada, by the way,
I had to get a licence to "Import Explosives" When this arrived, by Fax, in
the office, there were people who were beginning to wish they had been nicer
to me.
To mount the parachute inside the fuselarge, means ther must be a way out. I
was told they would go through fabric, but there would have to be some type of
exit. Can a piece of the fuselarge skin be omitted, and covered by fabric ?
When a wing separates, or is a Goose hits and shatters the windshield, or if
you are over very hostile terrain when the engine quits, there is nothing like
a ballistic parachute. John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: ProSealing tank baffle |
>
I was told that with ProSeal, even when it is mixed, it will stay uiseable for
days if kept in the Freezer, below 30 degrees the action stops. I haven't
actually tried this yet, but I will. The same person showed me where he had
attached brackets with Proseal alone, and had also used it to make a fairing
at the base of the windshield, on his RV 4. I did not even know that Proseal
could be sanded, when very dry.
John
Fuselage almost finished.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Balistic parachutes |
> I have not seen any RV's with balistic parachutes.
>I had a ballistic parachgute on an Ultralight (a Challenger) and I think the
concept is excellant. The cost was high, but I felt that if it saved my life
only once, it would have paid for itself. To bring it into Canada, by the way,
I had to get a licence to "Import Explosives" When this arrived, by Fax, in
the office, there were people who were beginning to wish they had been nicer
to me.
To mount the parachute inside the fuselarge, means ther must be a way out. I
was told they would go through fabric, but there would have to be some type of
exit. Can a piece of the fuselarge skin be omitted, and covered by fabric ?
When a wing separates, or is a Goose hits and shatters the windshield, or if
you are over very hostile terrain when the engine quits, there is nothing like
a ballistic parachute. John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttles, et. al (chatter) |
Jim,
Thanks for sharing your experiences; that's what this list is all
about. Direct experience (as opposed to opinions/wishes) are hard to
come by. :-)
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: Chutes, throttles, et. al (chatter)
Date: 10/13/95 4:22 PM
RVers...
I've read all of the posts about ejection seats (I've used one, worked
great, thank you very much!), G-alarms, lefty throttles, and Ballistic
Recovery Systems (BRS). As with most fighter pilots, I have an opinion on
each subject, which I will be happy to share with you. (I hope you're happy
to read them.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Flight Sim Instructions |
Ok, sorry it took so long to get you guys the information on how to get
hooked up, but here it is.
First of all, I saw some responses comparing it to AirWarrior and a lot of
money to play Confirmed Kill, so let me clear that up.
AirWarrior vs. Confirmed Kill
CK was created to give AirWarrior some competition (well, not just for that
reason :) So out came the Beta version and now you have many people who
haven't played AirWarrior since. (I'm not knocking it, even though it
sounds like it) AirWarrior was fantastic when it came out. Now PC's have a
bit more horsepower and CK addresses some of the issues that couldn't be
done on the slower PC's. For one, you have full screen video instead of the
little view box on AirWarrior. Also, CK runs in resolutions up to 1024x768
(you will only get 640x480 until next week). I've played it in 1024 mode
and it is awesome. (Don't forget, you'll need some horsepower on that
motherboard) Apparently with a 100Mhz Pentium you'll see frame rates of 40
frames per second in 1024x768 screen resolution. That is absolutely phenominal.
Cost?
Someone said something about cost, well, right now it's in a beta state
which means you get to play for free. When the public version is released,
it will cost $2.00 an hour with a 5 hour minimum each month that you play.
Granted that could drain your wallet pretty fast, but think of it in terms
of a fun activity. If anyone wants to go ride a JetSki for an hour it costs
from $30-$40 bucks an hour. Go Watch a Movie and you'll pay $3-7 for
1.5-2.5 hours. So it may cost, but where else can you go get the adrenaline
of a dogfight, get shot down and live to tell about it (while improving your
flight skills). Maybe I'm being a little dramatic, but for now it is
FREE!!! So enjoy it while you can.
How to Get it!!!!!!!
First you will need access to the Internet. You can ftp the file from their
ftp site. ICI2.INFOHWY.COM
Do an anonymous logon and go to the pub/ckfiles directory
>From there you will need to get two files:
CKBASE91.EXE
ART640V1.EXE
CKFAQ.TXT (this file has some good information about the game)
If you have Netscape, just use the following as the location:
ftp://ici2.infohwy.com/pub/ckfiles/
Create a CK directory on your machine, put both the .EXE files in that
directory and run each one. Each will self extract and you now have a
playable game.
A few things to be sure of before trying the game:
Make sure you start your machine with a very basic configuration.
NO EMS NO SMARTDRIVE, JUST A VERY BASIC CONFIG.SYS FILE
ALSO, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE AT LEAST THE FOLLOWING:
A Mouse Driver Loaded
A Sound Card Driver Loaded
A Joystick
Now go into the CK directory on your machine and type:
SetSound
This should bring up a utility to set your sound card
To check out the game without actually going online, just type CK -V1
That is CK then a space and a -V1
If you have a video card that support the S3 chipset 86X or better, you can
play with CK -S0 (the easiest way to find out is to try it, you will get a
message if your machine doesn't have it) It runs about 20% if you have it.
OK, so you've loaded up the sim and are dying to try it.
First you'll want to calibrate your joystick so select the Config button
then press the Calibrate button. The instructions should be self explanatory
PROBLEMS:
If you start the game and the video freaks out, reboot and get to a DOS
prompt, go to the CK directory and type GetVESA
Now try the game again.
If you have any other problems, send me some e-mail and I'll try and help.
I've set up quit a few machines with this sim, so I might be able to help.
I'm also a programmer by trade, so I have a bit of knowledge on the subject.
nuff said, Part 2 will have the section to get online
Good luck (By the way, the file CKFAQ.TXT should have all that information,
but I feel like typing, so you have both instructions)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
I have friend, Dave Eby, I flew with in the USAF he has award winning t-18
and c-140 (Best Custom Classic) and has been a crop duster for years and
watch's what he takes in his lungs very carefully. I am told by him and by
some paint companies, that MOST 2 part paints will give off an orderless gas
called isocynates (sp?). He sprays lots of paints for planes, cars, etc and
uses a hood (Wilton makes) that has a plastic window. He uses this with a
vacumn cleaner (blowing in case some Navy types don't understand) with
positive air in the hood. He keeps the source a long way from his painting
and uses a swiming pool hose connected to the hood. There are other more
expensive self contained units, but this gets him by and his products
certainly show it. When I ask a paint company here in Austin about
Vari-prime and what to use on the face, I was told that a cartridge mask
would "probably" be ok, but the gas is orderless and if you had a leak, or
the cartridges went bad, you wouldn'tg know it. The name of the gas is
enough to scare me. I personnally have not started painting yet, but I'm
convinced. It's amazing that most every article I read about painting, no
one says anything and I'm glad Becki passed it on. I yield to experts as I'm
just a dumb retired Fighter Pilot trying to figure out how not make "too
many" dumb mistakes.
Howard Kidwell
Howard RV(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
I always get confused about respirators after reading messages like
this. Can someone explain how I can tell if I have a respirator or a
standard cartridge mask?
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 aol.com!HowardRV(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Becky:
>
> Thanks for the info--enjoy your tapes!!!!!!
>
> Glad to see you talk about a respiratior. Not enough written about the
> dangers of isocynates. Most think a standard cartridge mask is fine.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 HowardRV(at)aol.com wrote:
> Glad to see you talk about a respiratior. Not enough written about the
> dangers of isocynates. Most think a standard cartridge mask is fine.
I thought she was talking about veriprime. Does veriprime contain
isocyanates? In the video Bob sprays using a standard cartridge mask.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, ek_richard_miller wrote:
> Guys, this program sim sounds exactly like the Airwarrior game of Genie's
> except for the bombers!!I want to try and get CK for my puter except I
> have no slip connection to the net..UUGGHH!!!text only!!But anyway,I know
Last time I played CK, which was a couple of versions ago, you could
*NOT* use a slip connection. You had to log into a text based system
using CK's built in terminal and then use the unix host's telnet command
to enter the CK arena. Has this changed?
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Flight Sim Instructions PART 2 |
If you don't have a good joystick, you will not like the simulator!!!!!!
more on that later
OK, the first part told you how to get the sim and how to get started, now
I'll talk about playing online.
First a little more babble
This is the scenario, they have this very powerful computer in (Houston, TX)
I believe that contains the world everyone is flying around in. As I said
earlier, up to 500 players can be on at one time. Some of these people are
exceptional simulator pilots. You'll find that probably only 10% of these
people are actually pilots, but don't think you have some big advantage
being a pilot, or even ex-military fighter. You can learn much faster on a
simulator than in a real plane. (you get to learn from your fatal mistakes
and try again) Your initial learning curve on the simulator is far less
than someone who doesn't understand the forces that act on the aircraft, but
many of the people online are absolute aircraft nuts (that don't have a
pilots license??) That may sound very strange, but some of these guys know
tactics inside and out, (Robert Shaw ring a bell?) As a matter'o fact,
you'd swear some of these guys are ex WWII pilots talking about the old
days. I would have never guessed, many of these guys know many of the
advantages and disadvantages of engaging in the different aircraft. (and
they exploit them well!!) Ok, enough.... sorry I keep babling, I'm just
saying, that if you feel this is just a game, you'd be surprised at how
seriously the simulation is taken.
Ok, getting signed up. You must have a Shell account with Telnet access.
Right now AOL or Compuserve doesn't support a dial in shell account (as far
as I know). Ok, assuming you have one.
Start up CK -v1 or CK -s0 and select the configure button again. You will
need to configure your COMM port. So select the port you want to use, IRQ
that is normally used for that port etc.. (if you don't know, you can go to
a DOS prompt and type MSD, a Microsoft diagnostic tool that comes with
Windows, it should tell you all the information you need about your Comm
ports)
Once the ports are configures, select the Terminal button and type ATDT and
the # to your internet provider and press return. Once you have logged on,
type
TELNET ICI2.INFOHWY.COM
You will get a log in prompt that tells you what to do if you don't have an
account yet. Like I said, the accounts are free for now. (who knows how
much longer they'll be free)
Part of the information is a 4 letter ID that will identify you to everyone
flying in the game, so think of a good one. I pick RV6a to identify me (go
figure )
A few other ar 'Pntr' for Black Panther '-bk-' for Black Knight You get
the idea
Once you've entered all the information for your account, you should get a
Main Menu that has an option B that says, Confirmed Kill. Press B and you
will be logged into the system. It should give you a message like,
"Confirmed Kill has logged you IN"
Now Press the Select button and Pick a Country to Fly for. (Red, Green,
Blue, Purple)
If you want to fly with another RVator, select the Gold country.
Each time you make a selection you will see confirmation as to when the
system has accepted your request, sometimes it can take 5-10 seconds to get
a response. For instance after selecting the GOld country, you'll see a
message appear in Yellow that says, "You Have selected Country: Gold" Or
something to that effect.
Now you need to select an airfield to take off from so select field F17, or
F18 (those fields are usually open for the Gold country)
Now select an aircraft to fly with, I suggest starting with the P38, it is
one of the simplest to fly, (No P-Factor correction on takeoff)
Now select the fly button and a few seconds later you will be sitting on a
runway.
When you entered your account information, you had to type in a 4 letter
nickname to identify you in the game, if you press the 'F2' key the other
aircraft flying around you will have their call sign displayed above their
aircraft. Enemy aircraft only show the model of aircraft like 'P-51' or
'P-38' etc.
If no other aircraft are visible around you, press the 'F1' key to toggle a
radar map of the area. press [ and ] to zoom in and out. You will only see
planes within about 10 miles appear on the map. If you don't see anyone you
should either try another airfield or ask on the radio where all the Golds
are.
RADIO???? Yes you have 4 radio channels available. (this part was a little
confusing to me, so don't let it bother you if you don't get it right away
(maybe I'm just slow))
press the / key and a text box should appear at the bottom of the screen. type
.radio 1 103
and press return
This sets radio 1 to channel 103 which happens to be the gold channel
now press the / key again and you should be in the text box again. Just
type a message and hit return. (like, "How do I make this simulator fly!!")
After pressing return you will see you message scroll up in Gold. That
means that your message was received by everyone in the gold country. Each
color represents a different color.
If you are on the runway and want to just get the plane in the air, try
pressing e for turning the engines on, then press the + and - keys for throttle.
If you want to look around, use the arrow keys to look off your left wing,
right wing etc. (you can combine keys too, like the up arrow and left
arrow for a front left quarter view.
JOYSTICKS!!!!
If you don't have a good joystick, you will not like the simulator. In my
opinion the only joysticks worth their salt in a simulator environment are
the Flightstick joysticks. You can get a low end model for about $35 and I
won't tell you how much the expensive ones are.... ($400) I have the $35
one and it works great. The other ones have a bunch of tactical buttons on
them for selecting views and so forth.
If you have a cheap joystick your plane will fly like a duck on drugs. You
will find the plane anywhere from uncontrollable to very difficult to keep
flying and any movement of the joystick translates into random direction
changes of the aircraft.
Really!!!! if you don't have a good joystick, you will not like the
simulator!!!!!!
I've tried quit a few different joystick, and the Thrustmaster line is the
only one I stand behind. They are very precise in the controls. Have you
ever tried to land a plane in a simulator to find you either land a mile
away from the field, or you just crash!! I use to do it all the time. This
joystick made all the difference. I'm to the point now where I can make a
200mph pass down the runway, loop around, drop power, hit full flaps and
drop gear (get real dirty) and still make a good landing. By the way, you
can even make a full stall landing, it kinda neat how slugish things get in
those war birds, hit full power near a stall and flip over on your back!!
For more information on a good joystick go to:
http://199.170.0.114/index.html
OK, I think I've reached my quota
Part 3 I'll tell you about squadrons in CK and the one I'm in.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Flight Sims PART3 |
Last section of flight sim stuff (Geeze!)
There are several squadrons in Confirmed Kill. I am part of the Squadron
call, "The Flying Pigs" Or the "F'ing Pigs" hehe
Check out our page at:
http://www.tezcat.com/~drmm/pigs.shtml
We have a regular night where we go up and perform a full blown mission with
time tables etc.. Each week someone else puts together a mission where we
break off into different flights, or Tusks as we call them. One group loads
up as bombers while another group as Air to Air support etc.. We fly to
airfields owned by the other countries and take possession of the field. (or
at least we try) We've got some guys who know Robert Shaw tactics like that
back of their hand. Some real talent for this kinda stuff. Anyway, if you
decide to give it a try, I've already annouced to the other Pigs that we
might get some company from some friends of mine (at least I'd like to think
of you RV builders as friends). They know you're all pilots and having a
great time building RV's. So if you get on line and figure out how to use
the radio, just ask if there are any Flying pigs online and tell them that
RV6a sent ya. They'll help you out if you need some. And if you get
hooked, we're looking for a couple more good squad members. As soon as this
goes public, there will be real campaigns, LIke the Solomon islands etc..
It's really fun being part of a squad, getting a consistant wing man etc..
at least a few pigs on. I think our numbers ar 18 by now.
Hope to see you on. If you want to get together online, let me know by
E-Mail, I'll be on tonight from about 1700PST to 1900PST
..... The last of the flight sim stuff (wheeew!!!)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tanks and Spar Flange |
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Ross Mickey wrote:
> With all this talk about filing to make room for tank rivets etc, I
> thought I would remined everyone about an article writen by Van in the
> Dec. 1993 RVator. He cautions strongly against doing anything which
> would scratch, nick, etc the spar flange strips. Here is part of that
> article.
>
> Van writes, Dec. 1993
I absolutely agree with Ross on this point. You do not want to touch the
actual spar flange (the 1/4" thick aluminum bars) which make up the
main strength members of the spar. But we don't have to. We are talking
about something else altogether.
There are two spar *webs* made of .040 which have flanges on them to which
the tank is attached using nutplates. The flange of the forward spar
*web* is what sometimes interferes with the tank baffle rivets. It is
this spar *web* flange that I suggested filing to clear the rivets, not
the main spar flange.
Sorry if I caused any confusion. Damaging the main spar flanges is my
worst nightmare. I couldn't really see any solution other than building
completly new wings if that happened. (knock wood)
Curt Reimer
______ __
||||| \forward spar *web* flange
/|||||
main spar flange | |
do not modify! | |
| |
| |
|||||
____|||||__
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttles, et. al (chatter) |
> I've read all of the posts about ejection seats (I've used one, worked
> great, thank you very much!), ....
Tell us more! How did it come about that you were in a position
to take advantage of the opportunity to get yourself blasted
out of the cockpit of an airplane??
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
permitting; N63TX, RV6A (560+hrs) will be on the line in Kerrville.
As an "average" type builder; ifn I can do it, anyone can!
See you there.
M E Soward
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Flight Simulators |
Steve,
I'm interested in the simulator, please let me hear more on how and where.
Thanks for the info in advance.
Best Regards
Wrgway
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | One Last Thing About Flight Sim |
If you plan on trying Confirmed Kill tonight, you might get disappointed.
Apparently the files have disappeared from the ftp site. (and right now as
This is the one that supports resolutions from 640x480 to 1024x768 and is
suppose to run real smooth on a 486-33. It will also have support for
aircraft carriers, and we can now man the Anti-Aircraft turrets around the
airfield. But this is all grapevine stuff, so I'll keep you simmers posted.
I wonder if I could convince them to model the RV-3 with 200hp? It would
probably be a fun little dogfight against a Zeke!
...Ever wanted to try an airshow routine in a P-51? I did, so I tried, it.
Very tough! Doesn't fly knife edge well at all! Just barely able to push
an outside loop. Anyone out there have any experience in a real P-51,
Spitfire, Me109, P38 or F4U? I'd like to ask a few questions about their
flight characteristics.
-Thanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tanks and Spar Flange |
>I absolutely agree with Ross on this point. You do not want to touch the
>actual spar flange (the 1/4" thick aluminum bars) which make up the
>main strength members of the spar. But we don't have to. We are talking
>about something else altogether.
I think the part that was referred to earlier is the row of #8 screws
closest to the trailing edge of the tank skin. The screws can't run all the
way to the root of the wing because of the spar flange. I'm surprised
someone actually notched out the spar flange without quiestioning that
decision.
As I drilled those holes, I almost forgot about the spar flange!! what a
mistake that would have been. I think I may have a problem though, when I
drilled the root most #8 hole, I think the drill went through and made
contact with the a 1/4" spar flange. (I'll double check when I get back out
to the hangar) Does this mean I am gonna have to rebuilt my spar if I put 1
ding on the spar flange? If it's just a ding, can I make sure the mark is
smooth and primered? Obviously no dings are best, but could 1 or 2 nicks be
filed out and painted?
I hope so, I'm gonna want to shoot myself if the spar needs to be rebuilt!!!!
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tanks and Spar Flange |
I think that the spar flange talked about in the article (if I read the
"detailed" instructions are the two big flanges that are (opitional) tapered,
stacked, then riveted on the main spar web. I would assume that is where the
strength is and rightfully so, Van doesn't want their integrity weakend.
Notice I started this off with "I think".
Howard Kidwell
Howard RV(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
Here I go again acting like I know what I'm talking about! The cartridge
mask is the one that covers the nose and mouth, and has two cartridge's-one
on each side. You can change these out and there are all kinds of different
ones. A resperatior delivers fresh air from a source, external or
selfcontained (think of the ones fire fighters use for air). Thats my best
shot at it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
_>player.
>
>Anyone else have an opinion?
>
>Jim
Pilots with opinions,,,,,, Surely you jest!!!
The real reason that military jets have ejections seats is that
you cannot survive a "dead stick" landing in a machine that stalls at
145 KIAS. Just run the numbers through E=1/2m(VxV) and you'll rapidly
come to the conclusion that it can't be done. You can dead stick a RV
with a high degree of success (you live, airplane is scrap).
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tanks and Spar Flange |
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 sday(at)pharmcomp.com wrote:
> As I drilled those holes, I almost forgot about the spar flange!! what a
> mistake that would have been. I think I may have a problem though, when I
> drilled the root most #8 hole, I think the drill went through and made
> contact with the a 1/4" spar flange. (I'll double check when I get back out
> to the hangar) Does this mean I am gonna have to rebuilt my spar if I put 1
> ding on the spar flange? If it's just a ding, can I make sure the mark is
> smooth and primered? Obviously no dings are best, but could 1 or 2 nicks be
> filed out and painted?
I'm surprised if you actually dinged one of the spar flanges. I found
there was plenty of clearance (well, maybe 1/8") when I drilled the #8
holes. If the hole is actually overlapping a spar flange, you may have
difficulty getting a nutplate in there. As far as the structural
implications of nicking the flange, talk to Van's. If its only a nick, I
think there would be a good chance you could dress it out, assuming you
can get the tools in there.
For those who havn't drilled these nutplate holes (for the dimpled
nutplates, aft of the spar) by all means use a drill stop set so the
drill just barely pokes through. That should reduce the pucker factor.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | chinkley(at)ix.netcom.com (Curtis R. Hinkley ) |
| Subject: | Re: PARACHUTE STUFF |
You wrote:
>
>REGARDING PARACHUTE STUFF
>
>Now that the ejection seat has been thoroughly thrashed - what' so
good about a chute? Well... its affordable, it WILL work and the
development, engineering, and learning-curve have been paid for by
someone else - ain't that special!
>
>I'm not minimizing the heartburn necessary to adapt to a rv-n but look
at the facts. If only 10% of you builders find merit in the idea -
thats a lot of good ideas and market potential. So no sermon - just
the facts - you be the judge.
>
>(1) Forget the speed limit stuff. A chute can easily survive 2X any
speed the rv will ever see. BRS and Cirrus are both engaged in
adapting a chute to the SR-20. The current deployment speed limit is
200kts (not mph)! That plane will gross at 2900 lbs! Sure there is
development to do but you are NOT PAYING for it! I saw the Cirrus
mock-up at AOPA, Palm Springs last year and those folks are serious.
Some astute engineering and thought has been given to load-paths and
survivability.
>
>Consider that chute deployment on a top fuel dragster pulls a
momentary 12 g's on a 2050lb vehicle traveling 312 MPH! Of 4,000
passes last year (top fuel only) I never heard of ONE chute failure!
If you add other classes (all greater than 250 mph) there was probably
6,000 MORE deployments with NO failures! (data available on request).
So forget the materials problem - it is irrelevant - a parachute can
EASILY SURVIVE rv cracking velocities!
>
>Yep, load path, structure, packaging, cg, are all critical but why
continue if you all think it is hopless. It isn't... so more facts
later. I'll wrap it up in the next letter.
>Elon (-8wannabe)
>
I just read your messages on chutes, and I have a question. The
Ormsby name has been synomous with drag racing for the last 20 years
or so. Are you part of that family, if so, you might want to relay
some of your hands on experience with chutes to the rest of the list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Cartridge/Respirator |
Well, here I am a FNG on this BB and sorry about a mistake. I was at my
local Home Depot today looking for something, and guess what the face mask
with the cartridge's is called? A respirator!! Sorry about that. Anyway, if
anyone knows of "cartridges" to fit in a "respirator" that will filter out
Isocyanates, let me know. My "expert" still maintains a fresh air supply is
what is needed over the face.
Back to being a humble fighter pilot now that I have sucessfully maneurvered
my bird in someones 12 o'clock!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Verticle Stab Jig Setup |
I'm in the process of mounting the rear spar of the verticle stab on the Jig
and have a question that perhaps someone can help me with. Is the rear
spar, VS403, to be mounted parallel to the Jig? or is the hingeline supposed
to be parallel? Since there is a 3/16 inch difference between the end
hinges, the answer will impact the angle at which the top rib, VS 406, is
mounted relative to VS 403.
Am I missing something??
Thanks for your help.
Dick Flunker
Rookie RV-6A builder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4BILDR(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Manifold pressure question |
Thanks for the expanation.
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Cartridge/Respirator |
>Well, here I am a FNG on this BB and sorry about a mistake. I was at my
>local Home Depot today looking for something, and guess what the face mask
>with the cartridge's is called? A respirator!! Sorry about that. Anyway, if
>anyone knows of "cartridges" to fit in a "respirator" that will filter out
>Isocyanates, let me know. My "expert" still maintains a fresh air supply is
>what is needed over the face.
>
>Back to being a humble fighter pilot now that I have sucessfully maneurvered
>my bird in someones 12 o'clock!!
>
I've been told that there is NO cartridge that will reliably filter out the
Isocyanates found in urethane aircraft paint. That said, I can say that I
used that type of respirator with a Combination Cartridge, GMC-M (two each).
On the side of the cartridge it says "for respiratory protection in
atmospheres containing less than 0.1 percent organic vapors, 10 ppm Cl2, 50
ppm HCL or SO2, and 30 ppm HCHO by volume and against dusts, fumes, mists,
asbestos--containing dusts and mists and radionuclides".
This respirator was the best I could find and I used it when I painted the
interior of my RV-6 with urethane paint. I couldn't smell any paint fumes
while painting. However, shortly after painting I had a raging headache.
There is no cartridge that will filter out isocynates. What you can't smell
CAN kill you.
Don't make the mistake I made. Use a fresh air source and also cover all of
your body. The paint can enter your body by absorption thru the skin.
If cost is a factor I have heard of someone using a grocery bag with a
plastic view window cut into it; the air source was the blowing end of their
house vacuum. Don't know if I recommend this but it may give you ideas.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com |
Hi Folks...
"flew the RV-8 for a half hour today... lovely FAST little airplane. I'll
type up my notes and post them shortly. This is an RV that I could see myslef
actually building... GREAT little prototype.
Jim Campbell
US Aviator magazine
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
Howard:
First I'll relate DuPont's official guidlines from the DuPont
Auto Refinishing Handbook:
1. Clean bare metal.
2. Sand and featheredge
3. Wipe entire area with 3812S or 3832S (Enamel Reducer)
4. Mix one part 615S with one part 616S COnverter or one part
620S Fast COnverter. Mixture is ready to spray
5. Spray 2 coats at 30-45 pounds allowing 5 minutes flash between coats.
In reality, I clean with MEK, scuff the surface lightly with scotchbrite,
then spray one coat. Instead of cleaning with MEK, you can use a
phosphoric acid (AKA Alumiprep, PPG DX533, DuPont 225S), but since
Veriprime is a self-etching primer, it is not necessary.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | 102023.1363(at)compuserve.com |
| Subject: | Pressure Testing Tanks |
Now that I've finished my first tank my thoughts turn to whether or not all of
the prosealing was done correctly. I would like to use something simple like the
balloon test as a first pressure test. But I have some questions about the cork
gaskets on the access plate and fuel sender.
1. Do I need to put some kind of gasket sealant on them to do a low pressure air
test like a balloon?
2. If so what kind is best?
3. If so will I destroy the gaskets if I have to take them off again for some
reason?
Thanks
Mike Casmey
RV-4 Minneapolis
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: newsletter to Germany |
<< Subj: newsletter
Just add the cost of a first class letter that weighs one ounce times four
issues. That should do it.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | E-Mail Addresses |
Since Matt has changed the setup for the list to show rv-list(at)matronics.com
as the sender of all messages, it is much harder to reply to an individual
directly when the subject of the reply is not much interest to the listers.
May I suggest that when you send a message to the list, that you add your
E-Mail address as a separate line after your name. That way by copying that
line to the scratch pad, it will be easier to reply directly to the real
sender and not clutter up the list when the message is really just for one
individual. Thanks
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
Working on finishing kit for RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
Unless the paint is the type you slop onto your house with a brush, it
contains chemicals in its fumes that are hazardous to your health. Visit
your local automitive paint supply house, and ask them to recommend a
good respirator. It will typically have a pair of removable charcoal
filters. These filters are good for about 10 hours after being exposed
to the air, so plan on using a freash set for each paint session.
This type of respirator, however, is not sufficiently effective when
spraying paints that contain isocyanates (Do you recognize the similarity
between 'isocyanate' and 'cyanide'?) Almost all polyurethanes (like
Imron) contain isocyanates. A lethal dose of isocyanate can be absorbed
thru the skin! When spraying this kind of paint, Disposable protective
clothing, gloves, and a full-face supplied-air respirator should be used.
You may think that you are safe by using spray cans. think again. I
recently had a spray can explode in my hand. (lab analysis revealed a
defective seam) Had I not been wearing safety goggles,
I would be blind in one eye.
Remember: The solvents kill brain cells. And you don't feel any pain
when they die.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, John Walsh wrote:
> Isocya..what? Cartridge mask not enough huh??? Am I gonna die?
> How about a little more detail on the "dangers" of Variprime and use of
> respirators please?
>
> I thought you only needed a respirator for that Imron/plastic paint.
>
> thanks
>
> John
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)primenet.com |
| Subject: | Copperstate fly-in |
Hi, this is probably too late. I am with the Luscombe
foundation folks at the North end of the tie down area, I am
finishing a restoration of a T-8F observer. In a year or two,
I wan to build a RV6, so thats why I am on the mail list ( I
also learn a lot of stuff I can use in the restoration).
(There is a olive green/white one tied down inthe Luscombe
area)
At the same time, I am moving out of an apartment in chandler,
closing on some land in south east Arizona, so I am a little
hard to find.
I wandered around the RVs Saturday around 7:00am, what a
wonderful collecton to look at!
You can ask for me at the Luscombe tent tomorrow if you get
this mail tonight, or... I guess I will see you at one of the
other flyins, I make it to a lot of them.
Good luck with your project
Bob.
--------------------------------------------------------
Bob Ollerton send: 10/14/95 20:36:38MST
talk: 770.518.5335 fax: 770.998.9096
Gridnet International. Roswell GA USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Curt Reimer wrote:
> I thought she was talking about veriprime. Does veriprime contain
> isocyanates? In the video Bob sprays using a standard cartridge mask.
No, Veriprime does not contain isocyanate. If a paint contains
isocyanate, it will say so on the label. As a general rule, it is the
polyurethane paints that contain isocyanate. Normal acrylic enamels and
acrylic lacquers do not.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ChrisL3064(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RV3-Crash and G-loading |
Gentlemen:
As RV builders and pilots we all have a responsibility to ourselves, our
families and our fellow pilots. Here are my thoughts as a fairly low-time
pilot (320 hours, SEL, MEL,Instrument) with 42 hours in my RV-6 and a
surgeon.
1. Build the darm airplanes as per specs---don't change anything espec.
in the structural areas. The designs are solid and well engineered.Fly them
within their gross weights and proper speeds.
2. RV's are not designed or built for serious, competative
acrobatics(and I don't just mean airshows!) There is absolutely no need to
pull negative G's or more than 3-4 positive G's in any manuever you should be
doing in these aircraft! All the discussions about G-warnings, ejection seats
and ballistic parachutes should really not apply since you are getting into a
realm of flight testing that has more to do with luck and circumstance than
knowlege and skill. If you want to be more macho, get yourself an Extra,
Sukhoi, Pitts,etc.
3. Learn how to fly the damn machine!---from somebody that really
knows! Even if you are a high-time hot shot stick-pusher, these airplanes can
teach you a great deal--we can always learn something to make us better and
safer pilots.
4.GLOC can be instant and fatal espec. in weekend pilots that are not
in shape and not in constant training.If you don't beleive, ask the experts!
There are many good articles covering this topic that have appeared in Sport
Aerobatics----Read them!
5.Steve Mosely was a good friend and a very unique and talented man.
Let's learn from this tragedy hopefully to prevent some future accident.
ChrisL3064(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)primenet.com |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
---------------Included Message---------------
[163.179.3.6]) by usr2.primenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1)
From: ccsmtplink.espinc.com!mpilla(at)matronics.com
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 16:50:25 EST
Subject: Re: RV-List: Variprime/MAsk???
Variprime, Marhyde, ..., have an acid-etch aspect -
definitely not
good stuff to breathe and the normal cartridge respirators
aren't
sufficient.
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: RV-List: Variprime/MAsk???
Date: 10/13/95 3:34 PM
This is all my opinion, and you should check with your paint
supplier instead of listening to me anyway. Read the product
literature and MSD! Never take a paint product into your shop
until you read the label and understand how to store it and
what to do if there is a spill.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Vari-prime is not a Isocynide based primer. One of its biggest
advantages is that its not nearly as big a hazard. Its not the
best Primer, but it has a good balance of safety, cost, ease of
use and protection. I think this is why Van recommends it, its
good enough protection and it won't kill his customers.
Most don't use a mask at all with primers like Vari-prime
because you can get away with it, unlike paint with Isocynates
(excuse my spelling here) which will make you sick with
certainty. In case you have not had the pleasure, its like a
Flu that lasts 1 to 2 days, your hack up junk from your lungs,
puke, feel weak, headache, etc. After the fever breaks, you
are weak for 3 or 4 days. Each time it takes less and less of
an exposure to trigger this reaction. You can also get this
from some Resin systems (Epoxy).
A good ($35 +/-) respirator with charcoal cartridges (They are
marked for use with paints and Lacquers) is plenty good enough
for etching primers like Vari-prime. You need something that
can filter out the paint particles and mists, which a
respirator can do reliably as when its full it is also plugged
up and you can;t use it any more.
The Cyanide gas given off by catalyzed paints like Imron and
urethane based primers can't be filtered, only absorbed by the
charcoal in the cartridge. The problem here is that you never
know when the charcoal is full... So you are protected for
awhile and then with out warning your are not. A full face
mask with positive fresh air flow is the only way to know for
sure. You should always store your mask and cartridges in an
airtight bag so the charcoal does not get filled up while not
in use.
There is a way around this, but I won't share it here.
With regular Zinc Chromate primers: these are usually a Lacquer
based paint with chromate added. They are no more a hazard
than Vari-prime in the wet state. good ventilationventalation
or a respirator with charcoal cartridges are ok. The Danger
comes after its dry, the dust and chips are toxic both to
ingest or to breath the dust. This becomes a problem if you
need to sand something; use water and don;t let the dust get
all over the place. (don't get over protective here, a little
bit here and there is not a big deal, a layer over everything
in the shop and the floor is.)
I am trying to put all this sage wisdom into a single file, and
have been including what I have picked up off the RV list. If
you have anything to add or changes to what I said here, please
let me know.
bob.
Isocya..what? Cartridge mask not enough huh??? Am I gonna
die?
How about a little more detail on the "dangers" of Variprime
and use of
respirators please?
I thought you only needed a respirator for that Imron/plastic
paint.
thanks
John
--------------------------------------------------------
Bob Ollerton send: 10/14/95 20:48:13MST
talk: 770.518.5335 fax: 770.998.9096
Gridnet International. Roswell GA USA.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | MOre info on Steve Mosley's crash |
I talked to Andy Hanna yesterday at Copperstate concerning Steve Mosley's
RV-3 crash. Andy said the point of failure was NOT the attachment point
at the root of the rear spar. The point of failure was the main spar
about a foot out from the root. This information coincides with what
Bill Benedict told me at dinner last night. He says that last december
they stress-tested a spar and took it all the way to failure. It failed
at 8.9 Gs, in the wing-walk area. The flange strips buckled aftward. He
went on to explain that one of the purposes of the xtra ribs in the
wing-walk area is to reinforce the spar flange strips at this point.
I hope I've paraphrased Bill correctly. There was half a table's worth
of noisy people between us.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
We have been using fuel lube on the gaskets with good results. The fuel cap will
be the leak point on pressure testing. I used the balloon method to test the
tank and had a hard time getting the cap to seal. Perhaps a vacuum bottle cap of
the right size would work.
Good luck
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Testing Tanks, other mods |
I would put some sort of sealer on these gaskets. I have done several sets of
tanks, all with no leaks. The last set I used tha cork gaskets, but I won't
be doing that again. My methods involve using pro-seal type sealer on
everything, esp. the screws that retain the sender and the access cover. My
worries on this set of tanks with the cork gaskets is: I don't feel the cork
will last as long as the sealer, and is the sealer I used on the screws going
to hold? I used Form-a gasket on the screws. During the test for leaks, the
screws were the only thing that leaked! I replaced them with the cad-plated
ones that came with the kit, and stopped the leaks that way. 20 hrs as of
today, and no leaks yet.
I have some mods to construction on the -4 fuse, such as butt-joints on the
fwd side skins, (much smoother), and an easier method of putting those
blasted nutplates along the top longeron on the -4, also eliminating the
funky lap joint at the boot cowl skin, where it meets the side skin. Anyone
interested?
Rgds,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Temp and Variprime |
Does anyone know if DuPont lists any temperature restrictions regarding the
application of Variprime. I don't have a convenient place to prime inside
and cold weather is approaching.
chet razer in sparta, IL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
_ >
>For those who havn't drilled these nutplate holes (for the dimpled
>nutplates, aft of the spar) by all means use a drill stop set so the
>drill just barely pokes through. That should reduce the pucker factor.
>
To be on the safe side, get a piece if steek plate and put it
between the main spar flange and the rebars.
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: E-Mail Addresses |
>--------------
>Since Matt has changed the setup for the list to show rv-list(at)matronics.com
>as the sender of all messages, it is much harder to reply to an individual
>directly when the subject of the reply is not much interest to the listers.
> May I suggest that when you send a message to the list, that you add your
>E-Mail address as a separate line after your name. That way by copying that
>line to the scratch pad, it will be easier to reply directly to the real
>sender and not clutter up the list when the message is really just for one
>individual. Thanks
>
>Jim Cone
>jamescone(at)aol.com
>Working on finishing kit for RV-6A
>--------------
I suspect the problem you are having is due to the way AOL processes email
headers. In the messages that are sent out from the rv-list, there are
two "from" addresses. The first one looks something like this:
From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Sun Oct 15 09:23:24 1995
The other looks something like this:
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle)
Notice the ":" in the second line. Mailers (the delivery software, not
the program you use to actually read your mail) will use the "From" address
to return errors and other messages about delivery problems. Having this
set to "owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com" means that only I get to read all that
garbage and posters to the List don't have to know about it. The second
"From:" (note the ":") will always have the *actual poster's email address*.
This second From address is the line that mail readers are suppose to use
when listing mailbox contents. Obviously, AOL is using the "From" line
and not the "From:" line when creating a directory of email. All of you
on AOL and any other Email Service Provider should contact your technical
support and complain about this behavior.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
With reference to your words regarding throttle, etc. on the left side, I
intend to gang two sets of throttles (+etc.), one set on the left side
and one set in the middle. I'm a left throttle flyer (stick in my right
hand) with more than a few hours in single seat jet fighters as well as
helicopters. Originally, helicopters were designed with the collective
lever in position for the left hand. As a result, the pilot sat in the
right seat. When dual flight controls were eventually fitted, the
co-pilot sat in the left seat and a second collective lever was added to
the left side of the left seat. Us right stick, left throttle guys have
to make our own way.
Fred, RV-6A, Wings
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995 fire.ca.gov!RUSS_NICHOLS(at)matronics.com wrote:
> >From RUSS_NICHOLS Thu Oct 12 10:10:35 0700 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
> Received: from ccMail by ccgate.fire.ca.gov
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:10:35 -0700
> Message-ID: <07d4d120(at)fire.ca.gov>
> From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
> Subject: RV-6 throttle placement
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Length: 976
>
>
> An article in the current AOPA Pilot indicated the Air Force trains
> pilots in the right seat of the Firefly (T-3A). They don't want the
> pilot to change hands on the stick for work the flaps and the
> throttle.
>
> I've heard of a couple RV-6s set up to solo from the right seat. I
> guess this may be the same reason...
>
> I was wondering if anyone has put the throttle on the left side of the
> RV-6 cockpit. I guess you could put the flap control (electric only)
> there, too.
>
> An immediate reason for not doing it... I become incapacitated and my
> right-side passenger has to fly. It would be awkward (at best) for
> him or her.
>
> Though I haven't had any experience with this, it just seems "right"
> to keep the stick in my right hand....
>
> thanks,
>
> Russ Nichols
> RV-6 empenage
> (I've looked at parts long enough... I'm finally pounding rivets!)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
Steve, there are a bunch of us RV nuts in the Minneapolis area, call me
at 894-7642 and i'll get you in contact.
Fred, RV-6a
On 12 Oct 1995, Johnson, Steve wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm a 53 year old who's been flying since age 16. 2000+ hours, mostly in
> Citabria 7ECA. I can see where I will have the time and money to get started
> on a plane in a few years - kid just getting started in college next year. I
> was thinking of going the Glasair route but got interested in RV after I saw
> the RV-8 in the latest Sport Aviation. I seriously think I would miss the
> centerline seating and left hand throttle control with the Glasair. I also
> wonder whether the extra 50 mph is worth the extra cost and complexity. I'd
> like to do a real nice above average job, but don't have the patience to do a
> 4000 hour show plane. I consider myself a pilot first and a builder second.
> I'll just be sitting in the background here soaking up the info. I live in
> Minneapolis and might be interested in going into a group where several of us
> could share tooling. After this latest thread, I'm real interested in the G
> limits of the RV-8. I would often pull 5 G's in the 7ECA during cuban eights,
> and that was a much slower plane where trouble was less likely. One thing
> that hasn't been mentioned so far is turbulance. It's fairly easy for 5 G's
> to become 6 if the air isn't smooth as glass. I consider myself a fairly
> conservative guy who likes excitement but not danger, so I have (almost)
> always done acro at 4000 feet above the inversion layer.
>
> Thanks for letting me listen in.
>
> Steve Johnson
>
> spjohnson(at)mmm.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
>You may think that you are safe by using spray cans. think again. I
>recently had a spray can explode in my hand. (lab analysis revealed a
>defective seam) Had I not been wearing safety goggles,
>I would be blind in one eye.
>
>Remember: The solvents kill brain cells. And you don't feel any pain
>when they die.
>
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>rv-6 sn 23744
Is there a filter for beer? Beer kills brain cells too!
...I know it's no laughing matter, but I couldn't resist.
And with beer you not only feel no pain, but don't remember when they died.
(either a function of lost brain cells, or you got too drunk :)
Actually I don't like beer (irrelevant)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Gasket sealer |
On 15 Oct 1995, John P. Foy wrote:
> We have been using fuel lube on the gaskets with good results. The fuel cap will
> be the leak point on pressure testing. I used the balloon method to test the
> tank and had a hard time getting the cap to seal. Perhaps a vacuum bottle cap
of
> the right size would work.
I seem to recall someone posting a good idea for sealing fuel caps on
this list a while back. The idea was to take a large round balloon, cut
the neck off
and stretch the rubber over the tank side of the cap, then insert the
cap. This seals the hole in the middle, which is probably where the
leakage is happening. When I pressure tested my first tank I didn't do
this, and my "pressure regulator" balloon slowly leaked down over a day
or two. I plan to retest with a sealed gas cap and keep my fingers
crossed.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV3-Crash and G-loading |
> 1. Build the darm airplanes as per specs---don't change anything espec.
>in the structural areas. The designs are solid and well engineered.Fly them
>within their gross weights and proper speeds.
agreed, but if you're qualified, change to your hearts content. I've got
one word... EXPERIMENTAL. But if you do change it, don't call it a an
RV-3,4,6,8 or anything with the designers name.... call it a John Doe-1 or
something.
> 2. RV's are not designed or built for serious, competative
>acrobatics(and I don't just mean airshows!)
True
>There is absolutely no need to
>pull negative G's or more than 3-4 positive G's in any manuever you should be
>doing in these aircraft! All the discussions about G-warnings, ejection seats
>and ballistic parachutes should really not apply since you are getting into a
>realm of flight testing that has more to do with luck and circumstance than
>knowlege and skill.
If you say 3-4 G's is fine, then these discussions are completely valid.
Remember the mention of 3-4G turbulence. Probably no need for me to add the
4 G manuever to the 4 G turbulence. ..but I'll do it anyway 4+4 =8-G's
There are simply too many in-flight variables to eliminate talk's of safety
devices, no matter how ridiculous they might be. The ridiculous ideas are
usually a form of creativity which spawn great ideas!
>If you want to be more macho, get yourself an Extra, Sukhoi, Pitts,etc.
To be more macho? If I was trying to be macho, I'd buy an Extra, Sukhoi,
Pitts,etc. They are more appealing aircraft (In my oppinion than an RV)
Don't get me wrong, I love my RV! (But I bet most of you married men find
some of those super-models extremely appealing, but probably love your wife
and wouldn't have it any other way) Not to mention the cost of having a
super-model.... I mean Extra, Sukhoi, Pitts. Anyway, the point being,
an RV is an absolute joy to fly and some people like to take their sports
car to the limits, and accept (or ignore) the risks associated with that
preference.
> 3. Learn how to fly the damn machine!---from somebody that really
>knows! Even if you are a high-time hot shot stick-pusher, these airplanes can
>teach you a great deal--we can always learn something to make us better and
>safer pilots.
Yup! And the more you push the flight envelope, the more there is to learn.
Actually, there is equally as much to learn beyond the flight envelope.
Unfortunately, pushing the limits of anything can be dangerous. I remember
pushing my Mom past her limits, that was a mistake!
> 4.GLOC can be instant and fatal espec. in weekend pilots that are not
>in shape and not in constant training.If you don't beleive, ask the experts!
>There are many good articles covering this topic that have appeared in Sport
>Aerobatics----Read them!
No arguments here, it's just another one of those accepted risks. You jump
from a plane and you accept the risk that the ground is rushing towards you
very quickly, you just rely on the chute to slow your butt down, just as you
rely on your skill, physiology and experience to keep you conscious. (using
the skill to keep the aircraft from pulling more that you should)
> 5.Steve Mosely was a good friend and a very unique and talented man.
>Let's learn from this tragedy hopefully to prevent some future accident.
Unfortunately, at this point, the information leading to the crash is
limited, so there isn't much to learn except for the basic philosophy. As
you said earlier, no matter how talented a person is, there is always
something to learn. And no matter how talented you think you are, it can
happen to the best of us. It is sad and I can't begin to understand the
pain Steve's family must be going through, but I really do feel for them in
my heart. Something we must never forget, flying was not something our
bodies were meant to do naturally, unfortunately, that also means dying
might not come naturally either.
My opinion
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Cleaning Agents/Solvents |
I believe we were on the topic of solvents and cleaning agents fairly
recently? (I think) I ran across this as a reference for some different
types of solvents. You might want to check it out.
http://clean.rti.org/solv_alt.htm
Hope you find it useful, or at least interesting.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Bryan J. Welch" <bryan(at)drmail.dr.att.com> |
| Subject: | What aerobatics are 'reasonable'? |
This talk of not pushing the plane has lost me a bit. I heard
lots say an RV is great for aerobatics and also a decent cross-country
plane. Just how aerobatic is an RV? Competition isn't for me,
but basic aerobatics look fun.
Are there certain maneuvers that are okay and others that aren't?
Or just keep the beast under 4g's and you'll be fine?
thanks,
-Bryan
wannabe RV builder, hopefully in a couple months
--
Bryan J. Welch, AT&T Bell Laboratories - bryan(at)dr.att.com - N0SFG
Pohl's law: Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Temp and Variprime |
On Sun, 15 Oct 1995 CRazer2(at)aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone know if DuPont lists any temperature restrictions regarding the
> application of Variprime. I don't have a convenient place to prime inside
> and cold weather is approaching.
The "DuPont Auto Refinishing Handbook" shows no temperature limitations
for Veriprime. In cold weather, use the 620S Fast COnverter instead of
the normal 616S Converter.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
barnhart(at)crl.com
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
A cartridge mask is quite satisfactory for Vari-prime, using the proper
filter cartridge. If you can not smell the product you are working with,
you should be safe. If you want details on the dangers of this and any
other "smelly" product we are working with, ask for a Material Safety Data
Sheet available where you buy the products.
Becki Orndorff
>Isocya..what? Cartridge mask not enough huh??? Am I gonna die?
>How about a little more detail on the "dangers" of Variprime and use of
>respirators please?
>
>I thought you only needed a respirator for that Imron/plastic paint.
>
>thanks
>
>John
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Variprime/MAsk??? |
Howard,
While your friend may be right about not being able to smell the
hazardous part of vari-prime, there are other components that smell quite
distinctly. I am always aware when George is mixing up the vari-prime to
spray outside. I hope everyone will take precautions and be as safe as
possible so we all have many years to enjoy our flying.
Becki Orndorff
>I have friend, Dave Eby, I flew with in the USAF he has award winning t-18
>and c-140 (Best Custom Classic) and has been a crop duster for years and
>watch's what he takes in his lungs very carefully. I am told by him and by
>some paint companies, that MOST 2 part paints will give off an orderless gas
>called isocynates (sp?). He sprays lots of paints for planes, cars, etc and
>uses a hood (Wilton makes) that has a plastic window. He uses this with a
>vacumn cleaner (blowing in case some Navy types don't understand) with
>positive air in the hood. He keeps the source a long way from his painting
>and uses a swiming pool hose connected to the hood. There are other more
>expensive self contained units, but this gets him by and his products
>certainly show it. When I ask a paint company here in Austin about
>Vari-prime and what to use on the face, I was told that a cartridge mask
>would "probably" be ok, but the gas is orderless and if you had a leak, or
>the cartridges went bad, you wouldn'tg know it. The name of the gas is
>enough to scare me. I personnally have not started painting yet, but I'm
>convinced. It's amazing that most every article I read about painting, no
>one says anything and I'm glad Becki passed it on. I yield to experts as I'm
>just a dumb retired Fighter Pilot trying to figure out how not make "too
>many" dumb mistakes.
>
>Howard Kidwell
>Howard RV(at)aol.com
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
Thanks all for clearing up the distinction between the requirements for
breathing with Variprime and the requirements for some of the more exotic
paints.
I remember one day I was cleaning my gun with the 620s accelerator and
since it was just a quick squirt, I didn't put my mask on. Believe me,
you will smell the acid component of Variprime quite distincly. In fact,
without my mask it damned near knocked me off my feet <1/2g>.
I think I'll pick up some fresh cartridges for my mask after work tonight.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette -FT-~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: MOre info on Steve Mosley's crash |
This is being written in response to a rather stern request
I was given at Copperstate by Bill Benedict regarding the speculation
of the causes for the RV3 crash being mulled over here on the list.
First, all/any statements made or
attributed to Bill or any other Van's employee are to be stricken
from the record. As he said to me, the cause is as yet UNKNOWN, pending
the outcome of the FAA/NTSB investigation. ANY statements about it at this
point are to be considered WILD SPECULATION at best, and TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE
at worst. NO ONE at Van's are making any statements one way or another
as to cause until the cause is known. I sincerely apologize to Bill
for evidently taking his comments out of context, the context being a
private conversation with confidentiality implied. He has asked that all
such speculations here on the list be stopped until such time as the cause
can be positively ascertained. So, at Van's request, and out of respect for
the family and friends of Steve Mosley, let this be the last word on the
subject.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttl |
> The real reason that military jets have ejections seats is that
> you cannot survive a "dead stick" landing in a machine that stalls at
> 145 KIAS. Just run the numbers through E=1/2m(VxV) and you'll rapidly
> come to the conclusion that it can't be done. You can dead stick a RV
> with a high degree of success (you live, airplane is scrap).
Sorry, I guess I'm a little slow.... Could you explain your equation?
It would seem to me you could dive at the runway to get the speed you
need....
Also, what speed does the Space Shuttle stall at? Don't they dead-stick
it in every time?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- PARACHUTE STUF |
Reply to: RE>>RV-List: PARACHUTE STUFF
Regarding "Ormsby" the drag racer. I am NO relation to Gary Ormsby the drag
racer (who passed away of stomach cancer two years ago). My practical
experience is 6 years Marine Corps Air Wing, mech tech on A-4 ejection seats,
LOX, and related equipment. ("Egress" stuff to you air-force folks).
Elon
--------------------------------------
Date: 10/14/95 7:16 AM
From: rv-list(at)matronics.com
You wrote:
>
>REGARDING PARACHUTE STUFF
>
>Now that the ejection seat has been thoroughly thrashed - what' so
good about a chute? Well... its affordable, it WILL work and the
development, engineering, and learning-curve have been paid for by
someone else - ain't that special!
>
>I'm not minimizing the heartburn necessary to adapt to a rv-n but look
at the facts. If only 10% of you builders find merit in the idea -
thats a lot of good ideas and market potential. So no sermon - just
the facts - you be the judge.
>
>(1) Forget the speed limit stuff. A chute can easily survive 2X any
speed the rv will ever see. BRS and Cirrus are both engaged in
adapting a chute to the SR-20. The current deployment speed limit is
200kts (not mph)! That plane will gross at 2900 lbs! Sure there is
development to do but you are NOT PAYING for it! I saw the Cirrus
mock-up at AOPA, Palm Springs last year and those folks are serious.
Some astute engineering and thought has been given to load-paths and
survivability.
>
>Consider that chute deployment on a top fuel dragster pulls a
momentary 12 g's on a 2050lb vehicle traveling 312 MPH! Of 4,000
passes last year (top fuel only) I never heard of ONE chute failure!
If you add other classes (all greater than 250 mph) there was probably
6,000 MORE deployments with NO failures! (data available on request).
So forget the materials problem - it is irrelevant - a parachute can
EASILY SURVIVE rv cracking velocities!
>
>Yep, load path, structure, packaging, cg, are all critical but why
continue if you all think it is hopless. It isn't... so more facts
later. I'll wrap it up in the next letter.
>Elon (-8wannabe)
>
I just read your messages on chutes, and I have a question. The
#019#Ormsby#020# name has been synomous with drag racing for the last 20 years
or so. Are you part of that family, if so, you might want to relay
some of your hands on experience with chutes to the rest of the list.
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
(8.6.10/LLNL-1.18/llnl.gov-03.95)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 06:28:58 -0700
From: ix.netcom.com!chinkley(at)matronics.com (Curtis R. Hinkley )
Subject: Re: RV-List: PARACHUTE STUFF
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Gasket sealer |
Yes that was me. Only one minor thing to add -- rub some spit around
the inside of the neck before inserting the cap. Also I tightened
down the nut a bit first. No leaks around either cap.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> I seem to recall someone posting a good idea for sealing fuel caps on
> this list a while back. The idea was to take a large round balloon, cut
> the neck off
> and stretch the rubber over the tank side of the cap, then insert the
> cap. This seals the hole in the middle, which is probably where the
> leakage is happening. When I pressure tested my first tank I didn't do
> this, and my "pressure regulator" balloon slowly leaked down over a day
> or two. I plan to retest with a sealed gas cap and keep my fingers
> crossed.
>
> Curt Reimer
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV-4 fuselage skin mods |
> I have some mods to construction on the -4 fuse, such as butt-joints on the
> fwd side skins, (much smoother), and an easier method of putting those
> blasted nutplates along the top longeron on the -4, also eliminating the
> funky lap joint at the boot cowl skin, where it meets the side skin. Anyone
> interested?
> Rgds,
> Mark
>
OK, I'll bite, tell us more. My skins are done but maybe next time.
Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttl |
>Sorry, I guess I'm a little slow.... Could you explain your equation?
>
>It would seem to me you could dive at the runway to get the speed you
>need....
>
>Also, what speed does the Space Shuttle stall at? Don't they dead-stick
>it in every time?
Good point! Maybe they haven't been shown the equation: E=1/2m(VxV)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "FORREST, GERALD" <gforrest(at)smtplink.Coh.ORG> |
| Subject: | New person and variprime |
Hello RVers,
My name is Jerry Forrest. I am a molecular biologist by trade and have been in
basic research for 25 years. I have enjoyed flying and instructing in gliders
for almost 18 years. Last year I added a private SEL airplane rating to my
license. My knowledge of building airplanes is very limited so I have been
reading the posts on this list for several months and I have learned a
tremendous amount from your discussions. I am in the process of acquiring tools
for building and have received the RV-6 empennage kit. I look forward to the
challenge of building and learning from all of you.
Variprime- Armed with all the information that has been posted over the last
couple of weeks on variprime, I purchased my first quart of variprime and
received the following information from the dealer.
Variprime does not contain isocynates.
Variprime is a two component self-etching primer. The variprime itself is
called #625S(primer). It is mixed with a converter (1:1) which is #616S. When
both are mixed together it becomes the self-etching primer. The
converter(#616S) is mostly phosphoric acid and is what gives the primer its
etching or griping properties. The converter is not a catalyst; therefore, it
is not comparable to other primers that use a catalyst and require a positive-
pressure respirator. However, this does *not* mean that precautions can be
loose. The following is taken from the warning label.
Repeated and prolonged overexposure to solvents may lead to permanent brain and
nervious system damage. Eye watering, headaches, nausea, dizziness, and loss of
coordination are signs that the solvent levels are too high. Do not breathe
vapor or spray mist. Do not get on skin.
WEAR A PROPERLY FITTED VAPOR/PARTICULATE RESPIRATOR approved by NIOSH/MSHA for
use with paints (TC-23C), eye protection, gloves, and protective clothing during
application and until all vapor and spray mist are exhausted.
The respirator that is recommended is a cartridge respirator. However, if the
spraying is done in an enclosed space or in situations where continuous spray
operations are typical, or if proper respirator fit is not possible, a positive-
pressure (TC-19C) respirator is recommended.
Hope this helps
Jerry Forrest
gforrest(at)bricoh.coh.org
RV-6 (starting empennage)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttl |
Between pounding rivets, thought I would put my two cents in. As an ex AF
Fighter type, thought I would explain a "flameout" pattern--and of course
dating myself to what I flew, the T-33, F-86, F-101, F-102, F-104, and F-4.
The only birds that were capable of a flame out landing was the T-33, 86,
102, and 104. The other machines had two engines and if you lost them both,
you had no hydraulic/electrical system to operate. The 102 and 104 had a RAT
(Ram Air Turbine) that you dropped in the breeze and it generated enough to
get you down.
The flame out pattern is a 360 degree overhead pattern and has a high key low
key (after 180 degree of turn), base key and final approach. The high key
was dependent on the bird. I.E. a T-33 was 5,500 feet and F-104 15,000
feet!!! IF you hit high key or low key at the optimum altitude, you could
make it. The 104 killed a few folks as you were coming down the chute at
220KIAS, take off flaps, and no gear and you held the gear to the flare. As
the shuttle does, you had to time your flare for the gear as you lost all
your speed in a hurry when you dropped the gear. The shuttle of course has
all computer type approachs and they are canned. I don't by any means imply
that there isn't great skill involved, it just isn't the same method. Now
feature coming down at X feet per second nose down, and then deciding you
were not going to make the runway. YOU must eject at a high enough altitude
for the ejection seat to overcome the sink rate. I understand the F-16 has a
high key of about 6,000 and have watched them practice flame out patterns and
they have a lot of airspeed and altitude to play with. BUT, anytime they
don't have the right numbers, that is what the ejection seat is for. I
personally have only dead sticked one bird and all the numbers were perfect.
If not--bye a/c.
sorry for the long "words", just thought some would like to know.
Howard Kidwell
Howard RV(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Pressure Testing Tanks |
I doubt you could get cork gaskets to seal "dry" (without fuel-lube or
similar).
If you use cork/fuel lube for a temporary seal plan on prosealing for
the final seal, you won't want to use the same ones if they've been
contaminated with fuel lube. Fiber gasket material from an auto parts
store might be an alternative -- you can get it by the sheet pretty
cheaply and cut out a bunch of gaskets.
I had a tough time sealing the access plates temporarily for pressure
testing. Mostly they leaked around the screws. I later found some fiber
washers for #8 screws -- with a little fuel lube underneath these
washers should help seal them up. Also a friend used buna-N gaskets and
fuel-lube (and the fiber washers). It held for the pressure test. He
plans on just leaving it that way for the final seal.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
> Now that I've finished my first tank my thoughts turn to whether or not all of
> the prosealing was done correctly. I would like to use something simple like
the
> balloon test as a first pressure test. But I have some questions about the cork
> gaskets on the access plate and fuel sender.
>
> 1. Do I need to put some kind of gasket sealant on them to do a low pressure
air
> test like a balloon?
>
> 2. If so what kind is best?
>
> 3. If so will I destroy the gaskets if I have to take them off again for some
> reason?
>
> Thanks
> Mike Casmey
> RV-4 Minneapolis
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Electronic G meter |
Terry, your multi-function G meter sounds neat.
I am sure it would be lighter in weight than a mechanical G meter
and has additional functions.
How much does the parts cost?
This could be a viable commercial product, but that my put it out
of the $$ reach of most of us.
Do you plan to do anything with this, I.E. publish plans or sell
a kit or ??.
Herman
>
> I am currently using the Analog Devices (ADXL50JH) 0-50g
> accelerometer in my Rv6a. I designed a multifunctional unit
> using a 20 character by 2 line LCD display, a Signetics
> microcontroller, a real time clock and two serial Analog to
> digital converters. My unit has different modes, One of which
> is the accelerometer, it has a real time display and it
> records a displays min and max g's, it resolution is 1/10 of
> a g and has a range of +/- 0-10 g's. It has a voltage mode,
> sensing battery voltage. It has a temperature mode sensing
> inside & outside temperatures displaying them in C or F. It
> has an elapse timer that can be reset at any time. This unit
> could be used for egt and cht with additional circuitry.
>
> Terry
> Terry Dyer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Dead Stick Landings |
Reply to: Dead Stick Landings
Good point about the destructive force being 8X greater at 140kts than at
50kts - same reason twins have a poor survival rate - they land too fast!
However, the military fighter is most to likely suffer structural failures?
due to things like, 50 caliber's, sam's, flack, heat-sinkers, etc. It is
considered good form to exit upstairs. The EARLY ejection seats would not
allow zero altitude survival. However, the Martin-Baker seats (in the 60's,
my last data point) would allow zero altitude at 90kts ejection with
survivability. I think today they allow zero/zero (i.e.,altitude/speed).
Your point is well taken but it was the LAST part of the ejection envelope to
be developed (25 years later!). The first and primary need was to get out at
altitude - it was assumed there would be no stick left, dead or alive.
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 303FS, Whiteman AFB, MO, |
DSN 975-3620 or 3489)
| Subject: | The Saga...[chatter] |
>> I've read all of the posts about ejection seats (I've used one, worked
>> great, thank you very much!), ....
>Tell us more! How did it come about that you were in a position
>to take advantage of the opportunity to get yourself blasted
>out of the cockpit of an airplane??
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
Randall and others,
If anybody's really interested in the "Jim Preston
trashes a 7+ million dollar airplane and lives to talk
about it" story, I've attached it to this post, rather
than use valuable space in the list for those not
interested. It's called, "JIMJUMPS.TXT"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Perrin <perrin(at)sofkin.ca> |
| Subject: | RE: Chutes, throttl (chatter) |
Ok, opinion mode on ...
Have to disagree with the ejection seat reasoning - my impression
was that it was there primarily to get the hell out when someone
put a sidewinder up your tail - the dead stick feature is secondary.
Not too many fighter pilots would think about bailing on an aircraft
that may end up in someone's yard/pool/garage/bedroom just because
of a slight lack of thrust. Even saw an amazing HUD camera video of
an F16 driver who lost his engine over a major city (Chicago maybe?),
found an airport (he was ifr at the time), and put the bird down on the
centerline of the runway. Damned impressive.
Also, I'd hope that a forced approach (esp. in an RV) would not HAVE
to result in a pile of scrap. At least they convinced me that it could be
done during my flight training (hmm... maybe I've been led astray?).
John Perrin
RV4 - 2473
----------
From: owner-rv-list
Subject: RV-List: Chutes, throttl
Date: Saturday, October 14, 1995 12:01AM
The real reason that military jets have ejections seats is that
you cannot survive a "dead stick" landing in a machine that stalls at
145 KIAS. Just run the numbers through E=1/2m(VxV) and you'll rapidly
come to the conclusion that it can't be done. You can dead stick a RV
with a high degree of success (you live, airplane is scrap).
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttl |
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> >Sorry, I guess I'm a little slow.... Could you explain your equation?
> >
> >It would seem to me you could dive at the runway to get the speed you
> >need....
> >
> >Also, what speed does the Space Shuttle stall at? Don't they dead-stick
> >it in every time?
>
> Good point! Maybe they haven't been shown the equation: E=1/2m(VxV)
The point of the equation is that the energy dissipated in an
*off-runway* landing goes as the velocity squared. i.e. double the
velocity means 4 times the energy to be dissipated by you and the airframe.
I you have a long enough runway the (like the space shuttle), there is
no issue...
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttl |
>Between pounding rivets, thought I would put my two cents in. As an ex AF
>Fighter type, thought I would explain a "flameout" pattern--and of course
>dating myself to what I flew, the T-33, F-86, F-101, F-102, F-104, and F-4.
> The only birds that were capable of a flame out landing was the T-33, 86,
>102, and 104. The other machines had two engines and if you lost them both,
>you had no hydraulic/electrical system to operate. The 102 and 104 had a RAT
>(Ram Air Turbine) that you dropped in the breeze and it generated enough to
>get you down.
>
>sorry for the long "words", just thought some would like to know.
>
Love this kind of info!!! Don't stop!
It's like having a back stage pass to the show Wings on the Discovery channel!
If I could convince the Military that my vision was good enough, I'd
probably already know what you're talking about, but since I only see these
aircraft at airshows, I love the info!!!
-Thanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette -FT-~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | RV4 Kit for sale |
RV4 Kit for sale. Purchased in March of 95. All options available
at the time were selected, these include: .020 elev/rudder skins, electric
elev trim, Phlogiston spars, BAC fast build wing kit, BAC Dlx fast build assy,
one-piece top wing skins, elecric aileron trim, new style motor mount with
the longer gear legs. electric flaps, optional filtered air box for the
Lyc O-360, 2 BAC landing light kits, BAC's wing skin rib templates.
Reason for sale, I just inherited my dad's Kitfox lV with 7 hours on
it. A poor substitute for an RV4, but wives being what they are ie. irrational,
I can't have both planes.
The verticle and horizontal stabs are finished, no control surfaces built,
wing kit has been inventoried, but not started. Fuse and finish kits are still
in
crates unopened. Located in Phoenix, Az. Price negotiable, but check the prices
for all the above listed items, and the factory lead times. Bottom line, a good
deal
but I'm not going to give away either.
Reply to me at mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com ph# 602 554 7462 days, 460 5457
in the
eves.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | postmaster(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Report-Version: 2
>To: ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
| Subject: | SMTP mail failed |
End-Of-Header:
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SMTP diagnosis, WWIS Version 3.07 :
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Due to: Transfer Failure
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(Possibly a bad destination address, please verify).
--------- unsent mail ---------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 95 14:52:55 EDT
From: <wrb.afres.af.mil!Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)matronics.com> (Maj, 303FS, Whiteman
AFB, MO, DSN 975-3620 or 3489)
Subject: RV-List: The Saga...[chatter]
>> I've read all of the posts about ejection seats (I've used one, worked
>> great, thank you very much!), ....
>Tell us more! How did it come about that you were in a position
>to take advantage of the opportunity to get yourself blasted
>out of the cockpit of an airplane??
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
Randall and others,
If anybody's really interested in the "Jim Preston
trashes a 7+ million dollar airplane and lives to talk
about it" story, I've attached it to this post, rather
than use valuable space in the list for those not
interested. It's called, "JIMJUMPS.TXT"
Jim
Date: 16 Oct 1995 16:29:54 -0600
From: "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV6A landing gear & videos
Gil Alexander writes
> Since the gear legs are pre-drilled to their mounts, the only
>alignment you can do is a slight rotation and/or vertical movement of the
>mount as it is clamped to the wing spar. The only measurements needed are
>the height above the wing surface, and the distance out from the centerline
>(just mark on the wing, and check with a SmartLevel). ** Nothing else is
>adjustable **
>
> This also means that you don't even need the heavy steel angle iron
>to clamp the gear axles to. I didn't like the idea of all of that weight
>perched above my wing surfaces, and working in my driveway, I didn't have
>any basement beams to safety strap it to :^)
ummm... I may be wrong, but if you don't use the steel angle, how are you
going to make sure the axles are in line??? The aiplane is going to handle
real funny if the main gear is not pointed the right way. In the air, it will
want to yaw and on the ground it won't track straight.Sure, you might be able
to fudge it, but who wants to take the chance
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
On Mon, 16 Oct 1995, Mike Fredette -FT-~ wrote:
> RV4 Kit for sale. Purchased in March of 95. All options available
> at the time were selected, these include: .020 elev/rudder skins, electric
One of my complaints is knowing about all of the options before buying
the kits. I would have ordered the .020 elev/rudder skins if I had known
about them. When I ordered the kit, I personally was at Vans Aircraft
manufacturing facility in North Plains Oregon. And I still could not get
a list of all the options. As soon as I get the RV-6 flying I will
rebuild or build new elev/rudders with the .020 skins (frustration!).
I have the wingkit now and I did not know about the single skin option,
but I don't want it. Now before I order the fuselage, is there any of
these hidden options that I should know about?
Thanks for any replies in advance.
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
>One of my complaints is knowing about all of the options before buying
>the kits. I would have ordered the .020 elev/rudder skins if I had known
>about them. When I ordered the kit, I personally was at Vans Aircraft
>manufacturing facility in North Plains Oregon. And I still could not get
>a list of all the options. As soon as I get the RV-6 flying I will
>rebuild or build new elev/rudders with the .020 skins (frustration!).
>
>I have the wingkit now and I did not know about the single skin option,
>but I don't want it. Now before I order the fuselage, is there any of
>these hidden options that I should know about?
OPTIONS????????????????????????
I didn't know about these either. Where can I get a list of these options.
Single skin option on the wing? Could someone please explain.
-Thanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
>
> I have the wingkit now and I did not know about the single skin option,
> but I don't want it. Now before I order the fuselage, is there any of
> these hidden options that I should know about?
Firewall recess. They sell both a pre-cut that you bend and rivet
yourself, and a pre-made one that's all pre-bent and spot-welded, just
cut a hole in the firewall and put it in there.
Also order the spring trim kit now I think if you're going that way.
Other than that are the ones you probably know about:
- 6/6A
- Tilt-up/slider
- electric/manual flaps
- pre-punched/standard fuselage skins
Randall Henderson
RV-6
PS: Regarding the pre-punched fuselage skins: I'M JUST
KIDDING -- THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!! :-) :-) :-)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: RV6A landing gear & videos |
>Gil Alexander writes
>
>> Since the gear legs are pre-drilled to their mounts, the only
>>alignment you can do is a slight rotation and/or vertical movement of the
>>mount as it is clamped to the wing spar. The only measurements needed are
>>the height above the wing surface, and the distance out from the centerline
>>(just mark on the wing, and check with a SmartLevel). ** Nothing else is
>>adjustable **
>>
>> This also means that you don't even need the heavy steel angle iron
>>to clamp the gear axles to. I didn't like the idea of all of that weight
>>perched above my wing surfaces, and working in my driveway, I didn't have
>>any basement beams to safety strap it to :^)
>
>ummm... I may be wrong, but if you don't use the steel angle, how are you
>going to make sure the axles are in line??? The aiplane is going to handle
>real funny if the main gear is not pointed the right way. In the air, it will
>want to yaw and on the ground it won't track straight.Sure, you might be able
>to fudge it, but who wants to take the chance
>
>Chris Krieg
Chris,
... the key words here are "the gear legs are pre-drilled to
their mounts". Since the mounts are attached to the front surface of the
spar, and the gear legs are pre-drilled, no rotation of the gear leg is
possible (and hence toe-in, toe-out), so the wheels will point the way they
are going to point!
As long as Vans has a good jig for holding everything to-gether
while that 5/16 (or is it 3/8?) hole is drilled into the _hardened_ gear
leg, then the wheels will point in the right direction. Given the horror
stories of drilling the legs in your garage (#2 after Proseal!), and the
accuracy losses possible in this home process, I for one am glad I got mine
pre-drilled.
Even George O. in his video makes it look easy, but then he shows
you the final product and tells you how many drill bits he broke. Full
marks for honesty George :^)
One word of caution though, thoroughly de-burr this bolt hole in
both the gear leg and the gear mount before assembling the parts. The fit
is so tight, that any small burrs will gall the metal, and jam the parts.
One of the 1 inch diam., 1 inch long, ScotchBrite wheels in your die
grinder is excellent for getting inside the gear mount tube, as well as
doing the gear leg hole on it's curved surface.
... hope that helps ...
... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 .... building brake pedals (all 4)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
>>E=1/2m(VxV)
>I guess I'm a little slow.... Could you explain your equation?
>
>It would seem to me you could dive at the runway to get the speed you
>need....
>
>Also, what speed does the Space Shuttle stall at? Don't they dead-stick
>it in every time?
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
Energy equals one half the mass time the velocity squared. Yes,
you cold dive it at the runway, if there was a runway. However, you
almost never have a 8000 ft runway when you need one. The Space
shuttle was designed to glide to landing and computer profiles put the
gliding shuttle in a position to land. Modern fighters have a glide
ratio just above that of a crowbar. When I was flying the T-38, I
would much rather give the problem to the taxpayer rather than trying
to find a place to crash and kill myself.
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
>
>Ok, opinion mode on ...
>
>Have to disagree with the ejection seat reasoning - my impression
>was that it was there primarily to get the hell out when someone
>put a sidewinder up your tail - the dead stick feature is secondary.
>Not too many fighter pilots would think about bailing on an aircraft
>that may end up in someone's yard/pool/garage/bedroom just because
>of a slight lack of thrust. Even saw an amazing HUD camera video of
>an F16 driver who lost his engine over a major city (Chicago maybe?),
>found an airport (he was ifr at the time), and put the bird down on the
>centerline of the runway. Damned impressive.
>
>Also, I'd hope that a forced approach (esp. in an RV) would not HAVE
>to result in a pile of scrap. At least they convinced me that it could be
>done during my flight training (hmm... maybe I've been led astray?).
>
Whether you have a missle up your whistle or no whistle at all, a
military jet capable of supersonic flight is a piece of junk when it
won't fly. Just because some irresponsible fool attempts to "dead
stick" and survives is no ticket to a medal. As a commander I would
severly censer anyone who would even attempt such a maneuver. I,ve
had experience with the T-38 glider and I,m not at all impressed with
handling characteristics. I got two relit and when home. As far as
pointing the junk away from people, most think it's a good idea.
Personally I have a primordial urge to find an elementary school.
You should have no problem making an evergency landing in Your RV
in you neighbor's corn field. The engine out front will punch a hole
in most soft and forgiving brush. A jet engine behind you has a
tendency to act as a suppository.
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
> Single skin option on the wing? Could someone please explain.
It's in the rv-list FAQ.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
>>
>> I have the wingkit now and I did not know about the single skin option,
>> but I don't want it. Now before I order the fuselage, is there any of
>> these hidden options that I should know about?
>
>Firewall recess. They sell both a pre-cut that you bend and rivet
>yourself, and a pre-made one that's all pre-bent and spot-welded, just
>cut a hole in the firewall and put it in there.
If you get the pre-welded one, make the firewall fit it, since they are all
(at least the present batch) 3/64 inch too wide. They are well made, and
it's a pain to bend the flat one neatly in your garage.
>
>Also order the spring trim kit now I think if you're going that way.
>
>Other than that are the ones you probably know about:
>- 6/6A
>- Tilt-up/slider
>- electric/manual flaps
*** ignore next line *** :^)
>- pre-punched/standard fuselage skins
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
>
Also
- Right side brakes
- fresh air vent kit (NACA ducts on fuse. side)
Gil ALexander
RV-6A, #20701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | NACA vents in wings |
A while back someone mentioned installing the naca vents in the bottom of
the wings, claimed copious amounts of air, even on the ground. I wonder
if anyone besides me thought this a great idea. I've purchased two vent
kits, and plan to put one in each wing, one for front and one for back
seat. (No, I'm not building a four-seat -6!!!) Before I cut aluminum I
thought I would see if anyone has any further thoughts on the matter, and
maybe the original poster would have any more info on the process. Thanks
in advance guys, and gals...
Jeff Hall
RV-4 WindWagon
Wings and stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | rv-list Temp & Vari-Prime |
I called Du-Pont's tech-support and was told that 60 deg. F. was the
coldest that you would want to spray the product. Last January, I
was ready to prime all of my fuse skins ( a whole lot of surface
area), I waited for the warmest day possible ( about 50 deg.) , put
the Vari-Prime and skins in the house to get them to about 70 deg.,
put a heater on the air compressor's tank( to get the air hot) and
sprayed in the sun. This worked very well.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: NACA vents in wings |
Jeff
>>A while back someone mentioned installing the naca vents in the bottom of
>>the wings, claimed copious amounts of air, even on the ground. I wonder
>>if anyone besides me thought this a great idea. I've purchased two vent
>>kits, and plan to put one in each wing<<
Just my opinion, but I would not want to cut any extra holes in in the bottom
of my wings especially at the root end of the wing which carries the most
load.
On the other hand I have seen some really neat air inlets in the leading edge
of the wing root fillets of the RV-4 that are really supposed to work well.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | G-Meter with audio alarm |
Cheryl suggested a G-meter with an audio alarm. It looks like the wheel has
already been invented. Page 254 of the 1995-1996 Aircraft Spruce catalog:
"The "G" Spot Accelerometer is not only much lighter than conventional,
mechanical models, but its micro-computer controlled solid state
construction enables it to be more accurate, sensitive, and durable.
Measure loads to +15G to -10G, features 22 memory locations, programmable
visual and audio alarms, measures system voltage and alternator
performance, is back-lit and is completely solid state. Mounts in
standard 2-1/4" instrument hole. Made in U.S.A. $329.95"
This is only about a hundred bucks more than a conventional 2-1/4"
mechanical G meter.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
Hello All
Just wondering if some kind soul could point me towards the
location of the RV Faq.
Cheers
Dave
KingD(at)Direct.Ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
You wrote:
>One of my complaints is knowing about all of the options before buying
the kits. I would have ordered the .020 elev/rudder skins if I had
known about them.
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
>
Hi Bob,
My question is why are you sure you want the .020 skins on your plane?
I am not trying to make a point. I am interested in information.
My current understanding is that for the design speeds of the RV-6
the thinner skins (.016 I think) are completely sufficient. Also,
if there is going to be a balance problem with the RV-6, I think it
will tend to be tail heavy, which means that putting extra weight as
far to the rear as possible might not be a good idea.
If there is some overriding reason for wanting the .020, please let me
know.
Best Regards,
Bill Costello
Chicago
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
RV-6 on right elevator (.016 skins)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
Chris wrote
>Our local FAA inspector luckily was of the
>opinion that professionally built homebuilts were ok because they were
>probably better and safer than if the owner had built it themselves.
Gee Chris
I hate to welcome you back by taking exception to your statement, but I have
to disagree about them being built better by so called professionals I can
name a couple shops in my area that I would not want to build my airplane and
they are called professionals. I think that a owner builder tends to take
more pride in their work. Yes there are exceptions and some shops do a good
job. I doubt that a comparison has been done that will prove that so called
professional built airplanes are safer than homebuilt airplanes. Myself I
don't have a problem with someone paying to have a airplane built but that
would sure take alot of the fun of flying it away for me. I also realize that
some people don't have the time to build so the next best thing is to buy or
pay to have it built. BUT IT IS not a safer airplane.:-)
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: NACA vents in wings |
I'm the one putting this mod on the list. I mounted the scoop outboard of the
wing walk, 3" aft of the skin joint line. Use a 2" wide doubler, riveted to
the bottom skin outside of the scoop flange line, so no rivets hold the scoop
up from a tight fit against the doubler. Simply use RTV to install the scoop
itself. I used only one scoop on the last a/c, and it feeds both front and
back, with plenty of air. I also put a shut-off valve, like a throttle plate,
in the inlet hose, and was able to connect the heat hose to the front of the
system. POOF! Heat and vent air in the same system. I have noted one
problem-- the hose that passes OVER the ail pushrod should be 2 1/2" dia. in
this area only, due to the fact that it has to be smashed somewhat for
clearance between the tube and the floor. The 2" hose, when smashed enough,
restricts flow a bit. It would also help to run the floor stiffeners fore/aft
instead of side to side, to allow for the hose.
Rgds,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Re: Faq Location |
You wrote:
>
>Hello All
>
>Just wondering if some kind soul could point me towards the
>location of the RV Faq.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Dave
>KingD(at)Direct.Ca
>
>
The archive files are available via anonymous FTP from roxy.llnl.gov
(128.115.138.101) in the "Public" directory. File name is RV-List.FAQ
Ross Mickey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
You wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I have the wingkit now and I did not know about the single skin
option,
>>> but I don't want it. Now before I order the fuselage, is there any
of
>>> these hidden options that I should know about?
>>
>>Firewall recess. They sell both a pre-cut that you bend and rivet
>>yourself, and a pre-made one that's all pre-bent and spot-welded,
just
>>cut a hole in the firewall and put it in there.
>
>If you get the pre-welded one, make the firewall fit it, since they
are all
>(at least the present batch) 3/64 inch too wide. They are well made,
and
>it's a pain to bend the flat one neatly in your garage.
>
>>
>>Also order the spring trim kit now I think if you're going that way.
>>
>>Other than that are the ones you probably know about:
>>- 6/6A
>>- Tilt-up/slider
>>- electric/manual flaps
>
>*** ignore next line *** :^)
>>- pre-punched/standard fuselage skins
>>
>>Randall Henderson
>>RV-6
>>
>
>Also
>- Right side brakes
>- fresh air vent kit (NACA ducts on fuse. side)
>
>Gil ALexander
>RV-6A, #20701
>
>
>
Also BAC has a firewall kit. I don't know if Van's has it yet or not.
Call them or Stve and Theresa at BAC (916) 676-5601. Don't get this
kit if you enjoy assembling jigsaw puzzles with no directions. Franks
instructions are a must if you do the firewall yourself. The only
drawback I can see with the firewall kit, other than the pure pleasure
of doing it yourself, is that you will not be able to fit the bottom of
the firewall to the exact dimensions of your bellypan. There is enough
variation in the bellypans that this area may not fit exactly.
Ross Mickey
RV6-A F606 Bulkhead installation
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Wing skinning questions |
I finished aligning all of the rib flanges on my leading edge
ribs last night and decided to place the leading edge skin on
just to take a look at it. As soon as I did this, I realized
that I had a lot of questions about the alignment of the skins.
I looked through the plans and read both Van's and Frank's
manuals, but still have questions.
1) Regarding the leading edge skin: Van says to overhang the
outboard rib by 1/2 inch, Frank says 5/8 inch. I moved my
outboard rib in 1/8 inch so I can see where Frank's number
came from. The question I have is what is the desired
alignment with the most inboard rib (the one without the
corresponding main rib)? The plans seem to show that the
skin edge should be flush with the rib.
2) Regarding the tank skin: The tank skin is 48 inches long.
On my wing, the distance from the most inboard leading
edge rib to the inboard edge of the spar web that mounts
the tank is just under 49 inches. This means that the
inboard edge of the tank skin will be about 1 inch
further from the fuselage than the root edge of the most
inboard main rib. Is this normal?
3) Regarding the top skin: I have the one piece top skin and
would like to know what the minimum overhang over the most
inboard main rib needs to be. If this leaves me with less
than 1/2 inch overlap on the tip rib, I'm in trouble!
Assuming it is long enough, I plan to line it up with the
leading edge skin at the tip and leave any additional
overhang at the root until I mount the wings to the fuselage.
Am I walking into a trap here?
4) Regarding the bottom skins: I'm confused about how the
overlap between the skins is done. From earlier posts, I
believe the outboard skin goes under the inboard skin. If
I remember correctly, the plans show two rows of rivits
where the skins overlap. One of these rows must go through
the rib at the overlap, I'm not sure where the other one
goes. Which drawing is correct?
<----- outboard (tip) inboard (root) ---->
| <-- rib where skins overlap
|
___|
_________________________
outboard skin ^ ___________________________________
^ ^ inboard skin ^
rivits
- OR -
<----- outboard (tip) inboard (root) ---->
| <-- rib where skins overlap
|
___|
____________________________
outboard skin ^ ________________________________
^ ^ inboard skin ^
rivits
5) Regarding the bottom skins: What is the minimum overhang over
the root rib for the bottom skin? What is the minimum overlap
between the skins?
6) Finally: Is this all detailed on the plans and I'm just not
seeing it? If so, could you please reference the plan sheet
number?
As always, thanks for the help.
Doug Medema
RV-6A #21140 dougm@physio-control.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
------ From: rv-list(at)matronics.com, Tue, Oct 17, 1995 ------
>Gee Chris
>I hate to welcome you back by taking exception to your statement, but I have
>to disagree about them being built better by so called professionals I can
>name a couple shops in my area that I would not want to build my airplane and
>they are called professionals. I think that a owner builder tends to take
>more pride in their work. Yes there are exceptions and some shops do a good
>job. I doubt that a comparison has been done that will prove that so called
>professional built airplanes are safer than homebuilt airplanes. Myself I
>don't have a problem with someone paying to have a airplane built but that
>would sure take alot of the fun of flying it away for me. I also realize that
>some people don't have the time to build so the next best thing is to buy or
>pay to have it built. BUT IT IS not a safer airplane.:-)
I guess I didn't phrase that properly. I meant that the airplane would be
better built than if the person that was having it built had done the work. We
had one Wheeler Express that the work was so bad, if the owner had finished it
himself, It would probably have come apart on the first flight. I have seen
some Glasairs that were built by private individuals that were far better than
most professional planes I've seen. I also agree that there are some shops out
there doing pretty bad work (having been a part of 2 rebuilds of so-called
professionally built aircraft, I can speak from experience). My main point was
that some poeple just have problems building and if they went ahead and
completed the aircraft, it would have been unsafe to fly, so they came to us
and the local FAA guy takes this under consideration.
chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Questions on exterior primer & painting |
I am close to painting my RV-4 exterior.
All the inside parts were cleaned, etched, alodined, and primed with
Randolph Epibond two part epoxy.
The cockpit was the same and then topcoated with Imron (Duponts poly epoxy).
I liked the way the Imron when on and looks so I will probably do the
exterior in Imron or one of the other brands of polyurathane (PPG or ?).
I plan to clean (with alkiline soap) and scuf with red Scotch bright pads
and then etch and alodine. Cleaning with soap is per Bob Brashier who
claims this gets the fish oil off. Other have recommend the same.
My questions have to do with what primer to use.
I prefer a non sanding primer on the metal as I don't like the idea of
having to sand all the skins if I don't have to.
Dupont says you can use either Colar epoxy 2 part primer (the one they prefer)
or Variprime (self etching). From what I have read, the Variprime
is a non-sanding primer and can go on fairly thin.
The Corlar, they recommend a light sanding and it can coat 0.7 to 1.5 mil
thickness. I like this one because it is a light gray color and is
recommended under light paint colors.
Does anyone have any ACTUAL experience with either of these primers or have
any recommendations on other primer/topcoat's like PPG or Sherwin Williams,
etc.? Any experience with 'wash primers'?
I have not decided on the sprayer. I have a standard suction gun and cup
but will research the HVLP guns (not the Croix turbine type).
P.S. Don't send me mail about the hazards of using the Poly paints.
I am aware of the issues and plan proper protection and a well ventelated
paint booth. I built a rack full of 19/25 inch filters 8ft high and
am using a 36inch attic fan to exhaust the fumes (at floor level so
it will pull the overspray down).
Thanks, Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
Quick note, whomever sent the list info-faq thanks. I spent a couple
of hours trying to aquire the RV Faq with no luck. And this has the addy's
in it for the Faq.
I've noticed that the plans for the RV's are currently called preveiw plans
or something along this line. Not having a set in front of me, Can you build
from scratch from these plans, or are they more of an assembly drawing for
the kits?
Cheers
Dave
KingD(at)Direct.Ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | Frank Justice instructions for RV6 Rudder? |
Are Frank Justice instructions for RV6 Rudder available? Where?
Bob Haan , RV6, .... working on the rudder
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Elev/rudder thin vs thick skins |
> Hi Bob,
> My question is why are you sure you want the .020 skins on your plane?
> I am not trying to make a point. I am interested in information.
> My current understanding is that for the design speeds of the RV-6
> the thinner skins (.016 I think) are completely sufficient. Also,
> if there is going to be a balance problem with the RV-6, I think it
> will tend to be tail heavy, which means that putting extra weight as
> far to the rear as possible might not be a good idea.
>
> If there is some overriding reason for wanting the .020, please let me
> know.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bill Costello
> Chicago
> bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
> RV-6 on right elevator (.016 skins)
Bill
I'm going to get into trouble with this answer but here goes. I
bought the RV-6 becasue it is a good compromise between an all out
hotrod and a plane that you can actually take another person and go
somewhere. But what I want to do is some aerobatics within the design
specifications of the airplane. Every time I talk to someone about
aerobatics in an RV-6, I get an answer like, with those thin skins it
wouldn't be a could idea to do whatever it was I wanted to do. What I
want to do is hammerheads, tailslides and a full rolling torque roll with
a tailslide. Now I know that .020 skins will not allow me do this in an
RV-6, but for added safety for the possible RV-6 aerobatic maneuvers, I
feel it would help. I plan on doing the type of aerobatics that you see
Van doing in his airshows. If all I was going to do was cross country and
an occasional loop or roll, I would not hesitate to stay with the thin skins.
As far as weight and balence, the skins will be heavier, but if I
go to a constant speed prop it should balence ok. I think that if you
want to do a lot of aerobatics in an RV it is a real good idea to have a
constant speed prop to slow you down. Even the RV-6 goes real fast in
the downhill mode. Also in the event I get serious I will screw my
wingtips on rather than riveting so that I can take them off and put a
flat plate on much like a Mooney's wingtips. Supposedly this will give
me more drag (which is good) and increase the roll rate, reduce wing
span, increse sink rate and who knows what else.
I'm probably way over my head in this area, but any comments from
the experts will be appreciated.
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahearn(at)attmail.com (Dan Ahearn) |
| Subject: | Re: Chutes, throttl |
It is possible to dead stick a tactical jet. Even though the NATOPS
for all single engine Navy/Marine tactical aircraft calls for
ejection. Remember the HUD tape of the F-16 shooting the dead stick
into NAS Great Lakes a few years ago?
Dan
----------
From: Ed Weber
Subject: Re: RV-List: Chutes, throttl
Date: Monday, October 16, 1995 13:37
> >Sorry, I guess I'm a little slow.... Could you explain your equation?
> >
> >It would seem to me you could dive at the runway to get the speed you
> >need....
> >
> >Also, what speed does the Space Shuttle stall at? Don't they dead-stick
> >it in every time?
>
> Good point! Maybe they haven't been shown the equation: E=1/2m(VxV)
The point of the equation is that the energy dissipated in an
*off-runway* landing goes as the velocity squared. i.e. double the
velocity means 4 times the energy to be dissipated by you and the airframe.
I you have a long enough runway the (like the space shuttle), there is
no issue...
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Faq Location |
> >Just wondering if some kind soul could point me towards the
> >location of the RV Faq.
The instructions for getting the RV-list FAQ are in the RV-list FAQ....
;-)
Matt, aren't you sending that out to new subscribers? Maybe it's time
for a semi-regular re-posting....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: The Saga...[chatter] |
> If anybody's really interested in the "Jim Preston
> trashes a 7+ million dollar airplane and lives to talk
> about it" story, I've attached it to this post, rather
> than use valuable space in the list for those not
> interested. It's called, "JIMJUMPS.TXT"
>
> Jim
Good story Jim! Thanks for sharing.
Randall Henderson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale) |
> Also BAC has a firewall kit. I don't know if Van's has it yet or not.
> Call them or Stve and Theresa at BAC (916) 676-5601. Don't get this
> kit if you enjoy assembling jigsaw puzzles with no directions. Franks
> instructions are a must if you do the firewall yourself.
BTW, the new plans have much improved details on how this goes together.
With Frank's instructions, it's not really a puzzle at all anymore. Still
fun though!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hulse <mikeh(at)zipper.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Verticle Stab Jig Setup |
>To: RV-List(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Verticle Stab Jig Setup
>Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Precedence: junk
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Status: RO
>
>I'm in the process of mounting the rear spar of the verticle stab on the Jig
>and have a question that perhaps someone can help me with. Is the rear
>spar, VS403, to be mounted parallel to the Jig? or is the hingeline supposed
>to be parallel? Since there is a 3/16 inch difference between the end
>hinges, the answer will impact the angle at which the top rib, VS 406, is
>mounted relative to VS 403.
>
>Am I missing something??
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Dick Flunker
>Rookie RV-6A builder
Dick:
>From what I was able to find out, the part that matters is the angle between the
spar and the ribs. I went with the idea that the angles are much easier to measure
if the spar is parallel and level. Here's what I did:
I ordered one extra hinge bracket of each size from Van's... These were relatively
inexpensive and pre-measured. I placed the brackets in opposite order so that the
sum of the two distances on the outer two brackets were the same. The middle bracket
required a shim of (I'm guessing, but the plans will show) 1/8". The result was
a very level spar without a lot of worrying.
I hope this helps. This is the method that I used, but there are as many different
ways to do it as people that build RV's. My advice is to take as many suggestions
that
are available and use the information to find the way that is best for you...
I hope this helps,
Mike
RV-6(A)
H.S. - Done
V.S. - Done
Rudder - Done
Elevators - In progress
Wings - On the way (With a 12 week lead time!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> I've noticed that the plans for the RV's are currently called preveiw plans
> or something along this line. Not having a set in front of me, Can you build
> from scratch from these plans, or are they more of an assembly drawing for
> the kits?
People do scratch-build from the plans, but they are primarily intended
for kit-builders. The "preview plans" are a reduced size set that Van's
sells for $50 with the manual. Due to the size reduction you can't read
some of the dimensions so it really wouldn't be possible to build from
them. At any rate, you cannot legally scratch-build without purchasing
your own set of full size plans and getting a builder number. That's
good for ONE airplane, either scratch or kit.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Frank Justice instructions for RV6 Rudder? |
On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, Bob Haan wrote:
> Are Frank Justice instructions for RV6 Rudder available? Where?
You can blame me for no rudder instructions. When I started building,
Frank's manual started with the elevators. I promised to help him add
some of the missing sections, so I wrote the section on the horizontal
stab. I fully intended to write the rest of the missing sections, but
life interfered.
Actually, what would be nice is for someone who has just completed the
rudder to step up and write that section for Frank.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
skinning the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
You wrote:
>
>I've noticed that the plans for the RV's are currently called preveiw
plans or something along this line. Not having a set in front of me,
Can you build from scratch from these plans, or are they more of an
assembly drawing for the kits?
>
>Cheers
>
>Dave
>KingD(at)Direct.Ca
>
These are two different things: preview plans and the 'real' plans.
The preview plans are greatly reduced in size and are intended for
just that -- preview. That is, to get a feeling for the construction
and to study in between building -- like on the train to work, etc.
Van has all sorts of disclaimers and warnings that the preview plans
should NOT be used for construction. So, if he has his way they
will not be used for any kind of construction at all.
Hope this helps.
Bill Costello
RV-6 on empennage
Chicago
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
>People do scratch-build from the plans, but they are primarily intended
>for kit-builders. The "preview plans" are a reduced size set that Van's
>sells for $50 with the manual. Due to the size reduction you can't read
>some of the dimensions so it really wouldn't be possible to build from
>them. At any rate, you cannot legally scratch-build without purchasing
>your own set of full size plans and getting a builder number. That's
>good for ONE airplane, either scratch or kit.
Ok I seem to be a bit confused here, I saw a set of plans selling for
about $225 called preview plans, this was what I was wondering about.
I'd now assume that these are the full size plans, and not the reduced
size plans.
Cheers
Dave
KingD(at)Direct.Ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Elev/rudder thin vs thick (tail slides!) |
Bob, adding the thicker .020 skins is probably a good idea if
you will be doing aerobatics. The .016 skins have cracked on a number
of RV's, maybe even without acro.
Hammers are not hard on the airplane as it is just a pullup and then
set and relax till you run out of speed and then rudder it around.
This may put a little strain on the rudder but I would think it is
not very hard on the AC.
I do question your wanting to do tail slides and torque rolls in the
RV. When sliding backwards and the heavy end decides to point down,
it snaps very fast. This is probably hard on the motor mount attach
point. There is some stress on the tail when you apply the stick
to force the wheels up or wheels down turn around.
Also, as you are falling backwards in the tail slide, the controls
are now reversed as air is trying to flow over them from the rear.
This can snap the controls to full stop if you let the stick or rudder
get away from you. It has been known to break controls.
I don't really thing a RV is a tail slid/torque roll type of aircraft.
But, you built it and you can do what you want with it.
I have done tail slides in my Pitts just for grins and it is fun.
I think it is better built to take this abuse.
BTW, when you do the tail slides, be prepared for the engine to stop.
When you fly backwards, the air wants to make the prop turn the other way
and it can stop the engine. It did this to me on my first tail slide.
I don't have a starter. It took quite a bit of altitude to get the
prop going again. I was glad I started a little high and was close
to the airport. I have read of several other pilots that have had
the same thing happen.
Herman
RV4 ready to paint.
> Bill
> I'm going to get into trouble with this answer but here goes. I
> bought the RV-6 becasue it is a good compromise between an all out
> hotrod and a plane that you can actually take another person and go
> somewhere. But what I want to do is some aerobatics within the design
> specifications of the airplane. Every time I talk to someone about
> aerobatics in an RV-6, I get an answer like, with those thin skins it
> wouldn't be a could idea to do whatever it was I wanted to do. What I
> want to do is hammerheads, tailslides and a full rolling torque roll with
> a tailslide. Now I know that .020 skins will not allow me do this in an
> RV-6, but for added safety for the possible RV-6 aerobatic maneuvers, I
> feel it would help. I plan on doing the type of aerobatics that you see
> Van doing in his airshows. If all I was going to do was cross country and
> an occasional loop or roll, I would not hesitate to stay with the thin skins.
>
> As far as weight and balence, the skins will be heavier, but if I
> go to a constant speed prop it should balence ok. I think that if you
> want to do a lot of aerobatics in an RV it is a real good idea to have a
> constant speed prop to slow you down. Even the RV-6 goes real fast in
> the downhill mode. Also in the event I get serious I will screw my
> wingtips on rather than riveting so that I can take them off and put a
> flat plate on much like a Mooney's wingtips. Supposedly this will give
> me more drag (which is good) and increase the roll rate, reduce wing
> span, increse sink rate and who knows what else.
>
> I'm probably way over my head in this area, but any comments from
> the experts will be appreciated.
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re:pneumatic squeezers |
| From: | "Kevin E. Vap" <kvap(at)sky.net> |
-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
In regards to the discussion last week about Van's renting the big squeezer
for wing spars: Everybody talks about the possibility, but has anyone here
actually rented it?
I heard a rumor it is a 6+ month waiting list. That's awful hard to plan
around.
-Kevin Vap
rv6
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing skinning questions |
Doug:
I assume that you are building an RV-4, or have an older RV-6 wing kit
without the pre-punched skins. I'm building an RV-6 with the pre-puched
skins, so take what I say with a tiny grain of salt :-)
> 1) Regarding the leading edge skin: Van says to overhang the
> outboard rib by 1/2 inch, Frank says 5/8 inch. I moved my
> outboard rib in 1/8 inch so I can see where Frank's number
> came from. The question I have is what is the desired
> alignment with the most inboard rib (the one without the
> corresponding main rib)? The plans seem to show that the
> skin edge should be flush with the rib.
The row of pre-punched holes in my leading edge skins is 5/16-inch
from the edge of the skin in this area. Therefore your assumption
is correct: The skin edge should be flush with the rib.
> 2) Regarding the tank skin: The tank skin is 48 inches long.
> On my wing, the distance from the most inboard leading
> edge rib to the inboard edge of the spar web that mounts
> the tank is just under 49 inches. This means that the
> inboard edge of the tank skin will be about 1 inch
> further from the fuselage than the root edge of the most
> inboard main rib. Is this normal?
Yes. For an RV-6, look carefully at sheet 10 of the plans and you'll see
that.
> 3) Regarding the top skin: I have the one piece top skin and
> would like to know what the minimum overhang over the most
> inboard main rib needs to be.
The inboard ends of my main skins are even with the inboard edge of the
rib flange. With the pre-punched skins, I have about 1/2 to 5/8 inch of
overhang at the tip.
> Assuming it is long enough, I plan to line it up with the
> leading edge skin at the tip and leave any additional
> overhang at the root until I mount the wings to the fuselage.
> Am I walking into a trap here?
Um, if you try to trim the skin after it is riveted down, you will have
an extremely difficult time doing so without scoring the flange of the
spar.
> 4) Regarding the bottom skins: I'm confused about how the
> overlap between the skins is done. From earlier posts, I
> believe the outboard skin goes under the inboard skin.
The outboard skin now overlapps the inboard skin in kits that have
pre-punched skins. Prior to the pre-punched skins, it was the opposite.
IF you don't have the pre-punched skins, it really does not matter.
> I remember correctly, the plans show two rows of rivits
> where the skins overlap. One of these rows must go through
> the rib at the overlap, I'm not sure where the other one
> goes.
The other one goes through the two skins only.
> What is the minimum overlap between the skins?
My pre-punched skins have a 1-1/2 inch overlap.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
skinning the second wing
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
| Subject: | RV4 Kit for sale (chatter) |
Mike -- why not sell the Kitfox? :-)
Cheers...
Terry
"Died-In-The-Wool-RV-Chauvinist" in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Looking At Unboxed
Empennage Kit Parts and Wondering If I Should Get The File Out"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA vents in wings |
Mark, Thanks, I thought I saved the message the first time, but can't
find it. (Gee, that's never happened before...heh, heh)
Jeff Hall
RV4 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: NACA vents in wings |
Jerry, thanks for the thoughts. That's about what I was thinking,
(cutouts in wingskins near root), as I was driving past Chugwater, Wyo.
this morning. (I gotta get a real job!) Started thinking about maybe the
fiberglass tips, too, maybe use a bit of that real estate.
Jeff Hall
RV-4 wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | William Garrett <wgarrett(at)mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us> |
| Subject: | Re: Vari-Prime (fwd) |
I am at work and just read the attached message. While I am not at home
to check, I am sure that Vari-Prime does in fact contain isocyanates.
Possibly they are in the converter rather than in the base itself, but
when I bought the stuff from the auto parts store they emphatically
warned me that they (isocyanates) were there and that the only way to be
safe using the stuff was with a positive ventilation system. I use my
shop vac attached to a long hose and strapped to my back running into a
hood I made from a large strong plastic bag in which I installed a
clear plastic window and supported by a hard hat! I also wear a
respirator inside the whole contraption. My understanding is that
isocyanates are a carcinogen and especially like to attack vital organs
like the liver and kidneys. In my opinion, I'd rather be overly
cautious on this one that hope I'm being just careful enough.
Bill Garrett
1571 Old Ridge Road
Pottstown, PA 19465
RV-6A (airplane) Builder
Waiting for my heated pitot from Wicks.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 21:17:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: David A. Barnhart <crl.com!barnhart(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Vari-Prime
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Curt Reimer wrote:
> I thought she was talking about veriprime. Does veriprime contain
> isocyanates? In the video Bob sprays using a standard cartridge mask.
No, Veriprime does not contain isocyanate. If a paint contains
isocyanate, it will say so on the label. As a general rule, it is the
polyurethane paints that contain isocyanate. Normal acrylic enamels and
acrylic lacquers do not.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Questions on exterior primer & painting |
>Does anyone have any ACTUAL experience with either of these primers or have
> any recommendations on other primer/topcoat's like PPG or Sherwin Williams,
> etc.? Any experience with 'wash primers'?
>
> I have not decided on the sprayer. I have a standard suction gun and cup
> but will research the HVLP guns (not the Croix turbine type).
>
> P.S. Don't send me mail about the hazards of using the Poly paints.
> I am aware of the issues and plan proper protection and a well ventelated
> paint booth. I built a rack full of 19/25 inch filters 8ft high and
> am using a 36inch attic fan to exhaust the fumes (at floor level so
> it will pull the overspray down).
>
> Thanks, Herman
>
>
I used Corlar on my BD4 several years back and I liked it a lot. It made for
a beautiful prep for the IMRON. However, it was very expensive, and as I
remember, contains isocyanates, (which are really not a problem if you are
careful). I used Vari-prime on the RV6 since it was handy from the
construction phase. One nice thing about it is that you can topcoat as soon
as it flashes off, which saves a lot of grief when making spot repairs or
additions to the primer (which you will discover just when you are getting
ready to paint.
To get the same "non-sanding" substrate as the CORLAR you must apply it like
they say on the can, otherwise it will not be smooth and will interfere with
the flow-out of the IMRON. Its a problem with flowout (leveling). You must
get enough Vari-prime on to flow and dry really smooth, which facilitates
leveling of the IMRON.
The light grey color of CORLAR lets the true topcoat color show, whereas the
Vari-prime darkens it somewhat (depending on the topcoat color) .
You should look at Kent's 6A paint. He used 2-step acrylic enamel. Clear
coat applied with the HVLP gun is severely orange-peeled (in spite of
addition of reducer), while application with a standard gun is crystal clear
(smooth, that is). He probably will have to strip the fuselage and wings,
otherwise he will have many days of "buffing it out". Problem with that is
that its METALLIC paint, very hard to buff out and look good....
I think I would consider acrylic enamel (2 step) if I had it to do over
again. I am getting ready to attempt spot repairs to my IMRON very soon. I
have not had much success in the past.
Be careful with the size of your exhaust fan. I used a large attic fan as
you suggested, and it moved so much air it stirred up dust from the floor,
etc. which promptly settled into my paint!
Have you seen my previous posting regarding water removal from your air
supply?
Jim Stugart
RV6/6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re:pneumatic squeezers |
We had a couple builders here in the Maryland area get together and
shared the big squeezer to do their spars at the same time. The best way to
find out what the waiting list is would be to contact Van's. I'm sure the
wait time goes up and down. We had borrowed it for the Chapter 524 RV Forum
in 1994 and had no problem scheduling it when we wanted it.
Becki Orndorff
>-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
>In regards to the discussion last week about Van's renting the big squeezer
>for wing spars: Everybody talks about the possibility, but has anyone here
>actually rented it?
>
>I heard a rumor it is a 6+ month waiting list. That's awful hard to plan
>around.
>
>-Kevin Vap
>rv6
>kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 Kit options in advance |
If you plan to install the full swivel tail wheel (which IMO you should) let
Vans' know when you purchase the fuselage kit and they will supply you with
the correct tail wheel spring.
Additionally, If you are installing electric elevator trim, let them know
because they will omit the cable at a $50? credit.
And as you know, now is the time to let Van's know if you plan on a
slide-back canopy and electric flaps.
I'm sure that there are other things to add to the list but I built my
fuselage three years ago and I'm sure things have changed.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re:pneumatic squeezers |
I thought I'd add that I just got back from a surplus auction on base here.
They had a hot dimpler (~2-3 ft throat, ~2000 lb) that went for $232. I
coulda been somebody with THAT sitting in my shop.
Dave Hyde
picked up the fuselage last night
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | (Chatter) tail slides |
Herman
I agree with you on doing tail slides and torques rolls with the
RV. I don't plan on doing them due to the design limitation, but I still
want to do them in something that can do it without breaking.
Can you still get a Pitts as a kit, or plans built airplane?
Thanks for the input.
Bob Busick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Kit for sale |
Another option:
I just talked to Van's this morning, my RV4 wing kit will ship the last week
of October,
and they have pre-punched wing skins available. Cost is $150.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wittman <73362.2004(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Pneumatic "C" tool |
I have something like that in my shop but it hasn't turned me into a somebody
yet. I used it on the HS skin but discovered when I started to rivet that the
dimples weren't "sharp" like the hammered ones with the Avery tool. They had a
noticeable depression around them that takes away from the overall look of the
product. If anyone has any ideas on how to make this tool useful I would really
like to hear them.
> I thought I'd add that I just got back from a surplus auction on base here.
>They had a hot dimpler (~2-3 ft throat, ~2000 lb) that went for $232. I
>coulda been somebody with THAT sitting in my shop.
>Dave Hyde
>picked up the fuselage last night
>nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Questions on exterior primer & painting |
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Dupont says you can use either Colar epoxy 2 part primer (the one they
prefer)
or Variprime (self etching). From what I have read, the Variprime
is a non-sanding primer and can go on fairly thin.
The Corlar, they recommend a light sanding and it can coat 0.7 to 1.5
mil
thickness. I like this one because it is a light gray color and is
recommended under light paint colors.
Does anyone have any ACTUAL experience with either of these primers or
have
I have used both in priming the interior parts of the plane. The Colar
dries to a shiny finish and is much harder than the variprime. Because
of the gloss finish on the Colar, I would think sanding would be a must
whereas the Veriprime dries a flat dusty looking finish. I am using
Colar on all my non-alum parts. I plan on leaving this the final coat
on things like the rudder pedals. The Colar is more of a hassel for
small prime jobs as it has a 3 hour induction time where variprime is
ready after mixing.
Ross Mickey
6-A Fuse
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: (Chatter) tail slides |
> I agree with you on doing tail slides and torques rolls with the
>RV. I don't plan on doing them due to the design limitation, but I still
>want to do them in something that can do it without breaking.
Could someone educate me in a little detail about the forces that act on an
aircraft during a tail-slide. The way I see it....
On the way back down, it would seem like the aircraft would have to fall
over before 30mph or so (power off). And when it does 'whip' around, it
would seem like the engine mount wouldn't experience any more abuse than
180hp of torque, or an 6G pull with full power. And if the speed is around
30mph in reverse, is that really enough to cause control surfaces to break?
It would seem to me that if you pulled full deflection at 135mph or so, that
would put far more stress on the surfaces than 30-60mph in reverse.
(assuming one maintains control of the surfaces and not let them bang
around) Doesn't that squared force rule apply to these airspeeds?
Could someone please clear this up for me.
-Thanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re:pneumatic squeezers |
> To: RV mailing list
> Subject: RV-List: Re:pneumatic squeezers
> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 20:04:48 -0600
>
> In regards to the discussion last week about Van's renting the big squeezer
> for wing spars: Everybody talks about the possibility, but has anyone here
> actually rented it?
Rion Bourgeos bought a used one and said it was more hassle than it was
worth, and that he'd just use the Avery tool if he had it to do over.
He said the trouble was with keeping it supported square to the spar. I
suppose Van's maybe has some set-up for theirs where that's a non-issue
though. Rion sold his to Kefton Black and Mike Seager, both of whom
are building their second RVs. They had no troubles, although they
squeezed their rivets as a team which probably made a difference, as
Rion was working alone.
Personally I recommend just using the Avery tool and a 4lb hammer --
that's what I did and it was easy (2 hrs to drive the rivets in the
first spar, 1.25 for the second, no helper needed).
Randall Henderson
RV-6 (firewall, weldements & stiffeners drilled, presently deburring)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: SYSTEM VIDEOS... |
The long awaited video from George & becki Orndorff on RV systems
is now ready and can be purchased from Vans,Avery Enterprises or direct from
George & Becki for $40 plus shipping 301 293-1505
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dave Hyde <nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: (Chatter) tail slides |
> Could someone educate me in a little detail about the forces that act on an
> aircraft during a tail-slide. The way I see it....
>
> On the way back down, it would seem like the aircraft would have to fall
> over before 30mph or so (power off). And when it does 'whip' around, it
> would seem like the engine mount wouldn't experience any more abuse than
> 180hp of torque, or an 6G pull with full power.
We were discussing this not too long ago. With high pitch or yaw rates
(off-axis to the crank/prop) the spinning prop/crank combination will
experience gyroscopic precession 90 deg off-axis to the rotation (if I could
send pictures of my hands it might be clearer :). The higher the 'rate of
whip', the higher the off-axis force. It can be a higher load (force) than
the engine and mount feel during a 6-g pull, but it's highly dependent on RPM
and the "whip rate" - pitch or yaw rate when the hammer falls.
> And if the speed is around
> 30mph in reverse, is that really enough to cause control surfaces to break?
It's enough to slam the surfaces agains the stops pretty hard (harder than
you'd do with yor hands against an opposing airload). The stops aren't
super-strong, either.
> It would seem to me that if you pulled full deflection at 135mph or so, that
> would put far more stress on the surfaces than 30-60mph in reverse.
But you're not slamming the stick against the stops during this full defl.
pull. The snatch can also come when you aren't expecting it, and can
jerk the stick out of your hands even if you intend to hold it in place.
(It makes a pretty evil noise, too. :)
Dave Hyde
nauga(at)windvane.umd.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re:pneumatic squeezers |
>Personally I recommend just using the Avery tool and a 4lb hammer --
>that's what I did and it was easy (2 hrs to drive the rivets in the
>first spar, 1.25 for the second, no helper needed).
I agree with you, I used the same method as you and found the rivets turn
out beautiful. My only recommendation is that you make absolutely sure the
spar is totally perpendicular in all directions to the Avery tool. (I
found if you are off in the slightest, those big rivets aren't very
forgiving and bend over real easy) Also, make sure the spar flanges and the
whole spar in general is held together very tightly, otherwise the pounding
will cause the spar flanges to separate.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> Ok I seem to be a bit confused here, I saw a set of plans selling for
> about $225 called preview plans, this was what I was wondering about.
> I'd now assume that these are the full size plans, and not the reduced
> size plans.
Well since you only get the full size plans for the part of the subkit
you have purchased, maybe they are calling the whole set of full size
plans "preview" plans now. If you got the whole set up front and aren't
scratch building, then that would be pretty much all they're good for
I guess....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- (Chatter) tail |
Reply to: RE>>RV-List: (Chatter) tail slides
Steve you wrote...
And if the speed is around 30mph in reverse, is that really enough to cause
control surfaces to break?
It would seem to me that if you pulled full deflection at 135mph or so, that
would put far more stress on the surfaces than 30-60mph in reverse.
(assuming one maintains control of the surfaces and not let them bang
around) Doesn't that squared force rule apply to these airspeeds?
___________________________
The physics doesn't change. But the direction of the force will. Some
materials (or designs) are stronger under tension than compression. If the
design is adequate under tension it may buckle under compression. Check out
the "load path" on your push rods - they work best under tension!
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Spar Rivets (was Re: pneumatic squeezers) |
> From: pharmcomp.com!sday(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 12:21 PDT
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:pneumatic squeezers
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> >Personally I recommend just using the Avery tool and a 4lb hammer --
[...]
> My only recommendation is that you make absolutely sure the
> spar is totally perpendicular in all directions to the Avery tool.
>
Absolutely. I've posted this more than once (aplolgies to old-time
rv-listers) but for those who haven't heard "the word": clamp or screw
some wood blocks to the ends of the spar such that it will rest on the
floor perpenduclar in both directions to the shaft of the Avery arbor,
with the factory head of the rivet just lightly resting in the die.
Also use some shims closer to the arbor to keep it from sagging. Then
you can just move the avery tool and the middle shims along under the
spar as you go.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 Kit options in advance |
Gary
What are the pros and cons on the full swivel tailwheel?
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
> If you plan to install the full swivel tail wheel (which IMO you should) let
> Vans' know when you purchase the fuselage kit and they will supply you with
> the correct tail wheel spring.
>
> Gary Corde
> RV-6 N211GC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar Rivets (was Re: pneumatic squeezers) |
Text item:
HINT: Make sure your Avery set is square to your surface. Then when you put
your spar in you can use one of those bubble levels like they use on RV's
(recreational vehicles). Just lay it on the web of the spar flat and when you
have the bubble centered it should be square to the set, then wam it. Actually,
I used this method at Phlogiston when I worked there rather than try and eyeball
it before activating the BIG rivet pneumatic rivet driver. This was a floor
model, huge and very effective but have it right the first time. Oh, yea, I
also became expert at drilling out misdriven rivets. You just have to get the
hang of it.
> From: pharmcomp.com!sday(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 12:21 PDT
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:pneumatic squeezers
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> >Personally I recommend just using the Avery tool and a 4lb hammer --
[...]
> My only recommendation is that you make absolutely sure the
> spar is totally perpendicular in all directions to the Avery tool.
>
Absolutely. I've posted this more than once (aplolgies to old-time
rv-listers) but for those who haven't heard "the word": clamp or screw
some wood blocks to the ends of the spar such that it will rest on the
floor perpenduclar in both directions to the shaft of the Avery arbor,
with the factory head of the rivet just lightly resting in the die.
Also use some shims closer to the arbor to keep it from sagging. Then
you can just move the avery tool and the middle shims along under the
spar as you go.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: RV-List: Spar Rivets (was Re: pneumatic squeezers)
From: edt.com!randall(at)matronics.com (Randall Henderson)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:09:18 -0700
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | (chatter)R&R in Kansas |
| From: | terrance.jantzi(at)canrem.com (Terrance Jantzi) |
I have to stay over the weekend Oct 27-29 in Kansas City. I would love
to visit, hangar fly etc with fellow RV builders, or any other
homebuilders. I am five years into constructing my own RV-6 (six months
from completion). Would love to hear from anybody.
Terry Jantzi
RV-6 C-GZRV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Brooks, William" <brooksw(at)crl1.crl.aecl.ca> |
A note to introduce myself.
I am building an RV-6A in Ottawa, Canada. I have completed the empenage and
one wing and am now drilling the skins on the second wing. I had absolutely
no experience in aircraft construction or metal work prior to this project.
Some general comments from someone who has never done this before that might
be helpful to those who are just beginning.
1. Rivet holes for AN4 rivets should first be drilled with a 3/32 or #41
drill. If you start a hole for an AN4 rivet with a 1/8 drill, some holes
will inevitably be messed up and too large.
2. Be careful to maintain minimum edge distances.
3. When constructing the wings, insert and tighten the bolts that hold the
ribs to the main spar before you position and drill the leading edge and
main skins ie. do not rely on clecos alone to hold the ribs in place. When
the bolts are put in and tightened, they will shift the ribs just enough to
misalign some of the rivet holes you have just drilled in the skins. One can
use non locking nuts for this temporary fastening.
4. If one buys a 4x4 to use as the horizontal member of the empenage jig
from a lumber yard in Canada in January, it will be frozen solid. The
straight line carefully marked on the 4x4 and then used to locate the hinge
line for the horizontal stabilizer will no longer be quite straight some
weeks later after the 4x4 has thawed in the workshop and the stabilizer has
been built.
5. A portable 220 volt 5500 watt construction heater ($80. Cdn) will
quickly and easily heat up a somewhat insulated single car garage.
6. The Scotchbrite wheel is a great invention.
7. If you are countersinking anything, the piece being countersunk must be
backed up with another piece (usually the underlying rib if you are doing a
skin) to positively locate the countersink bit, otherwise the bit will
wander and the hole will be oval.
8. If it isn't right, scrap the piece and do it again. Van's Aircraft are
happy to send you as many replacement parts as you ask for, and they are
very prompt to ship.
9. The Orndorff videos are helpful and a confidence builder.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RV6 Kit options in advance |
The advantages to the full swivel tail wheel are 1) tighter turns while
taxiing and 2) it's MUCH easyer to push the aircraft around on the ground.
Without the swivel option you will find that you are always picking up the
tail to swing the aircraft around. This may not sound like a chore now, but
I can tell you that after building my plane, my back is shot. It's much
easyer to push it than lift it.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
---------------------
From: nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com (Robert Busick)
Date: 95-10-18 19:42:42 EDT
Gary
What are the pros and cons on the full swivel tailwheel?
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
> If you plan to install the full swivel tail wheel (which IMO you should)
let
> Vans' know when you purchase the fuselage kit and they will supply you with
> the correct tail wheel spring.
>
> Gary Corde
> RV-6 N211GC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com (Michael Gamble) |
| Subject: | Re: (chatter)R&R in Kansas |
Jerry:
I am on the list but haven't started building an AC yet. But I saw that
you were going to my old home town. What ever you do get some BBQ while you
are there. Go to Gates and sons, about my favorite. I hope you meet up with
some
homebuilders!
Mick
>I have to stay over the weekend Oct 27-29 in Kansas City. I would love
>to visit, hangar fly etc with fellow RV builders, or any other
>homebuilders. I am five years into constructing my own RV-6 (six months
>from completion). Would love to hear from anybody.
>
>Terry Jantzi
>RV-6 C-GZRV
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________
|| Michael C. Gamble Fax: (805) 328-3860 ||
|| Happy Troll Computing Phone: (805) 328-3840 ||
|| 5329 Office Center Court Email: mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com ||
|| Suite 200 ||
|| Bakersfield, CA 93309 ||
-------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com |
| Subject: | Bob Hoover Medical |
Just got this from the IAC mailing list...
Eric Barnes
------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
SENT 10-18-95 FROM SMTPGATE (cwhittle(at)uoknor.edu)
The Aerospace America Airshow office in Oklahoma City has received a
recorded message from Mr. Jim Driskoll, Bob Hoover's long time companion and
associate, stating that, as of this morning, Mr. Hoover has received a 2nd
class medical certificate from the FAA.
A call from another source confirms that Mr. Hoover received the certificate
ligitimately through medical channels.
Carl Whittle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mike casmey <102023.1363(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Last question on pressure testing tanks |
Thanks to all of you who have helped me through my tanks. I've had a balloon on
my tank for two days now without so much as a puff escaping. I sealed up the
vent line in frustration after trying to hook up a line filled with water. All
I
got was a wet floor. Our local tech advisor questioned whether or not the
balloon alone could provide enough pressure to really test for the smallest of
leaks. It's a 12 inch party balloon blown up very tight with 2 tic marks drawn
on it's center line. Would the water line have provided more resistence and is
that why it was suggested?
Thanks again.
Mike Casmey
Mpls, MN. RV-4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Customs (Was From AvWeb) (non-rv chatter) |
The following was on Avweb, forwarded to me by Calin Brabandt. I've
been following this one for a while now and am pretty dissappointed --
anyone who has ever done that useless border crossing dance and paid
their fees and gone to the specific airport of entry and called ahead
and arrived within their little 15 minute window, only to wait around
for an hour for some guy to swagger out, gun slapping his thigh, and
demand to see your Radio License, knows what I'm talking about. Write
congress and tell them to get off their cans and end this nonsense.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
----- Begin Included Message -----
Union Delays Plan for Clearing Customs by
Phone
Just as the U.S. Customs service was set to put in place
a plan that would allow pilots to clear Customs by
telephone, the program has been put on indefinite delay.
The streamlined program--which had already been adopted
by Canada--would have allowed pilots returning to the
U.S. from Canada to clear Customs by telephone, without
formal inspection.
According to a Customs spokesman, the employee union
representing Customs inspectors objects to the program
because of "law enforcement concerns." The union has
asked for a Congressional review of the plan, which could
take months.
----- End Included Message -----
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Pressure testing Tanks - D. Meehan |
The only reason for using the water filled tube is that you know exactly how
many pounds of pressure you have applied and can also see any slight
variations in drop of the water column indicating a leak. I used clear
plastic hose with food colored water. Used a hair dryer to warm the end of
the tube so it would fit over the fuel inlet fitting tightly. Used duct
tape to seal off the fuel filler hole.
Don Meehan
>Thanks to all of you who have helped me through my tanks. I've had a balloon on
>my tank for two days now without so much as a puff escaping. I sealed up the
>vent line in frustration after trying to hook up a line filled with water.
All I
>got was a wet floor. Our local tech advisor questioned whether or not the
>balloon alone could provide enough pressure to really test for the smallest of
>leaks. It's a 12 inch party balloon blown up very tight with 2 tic marks drawn
>on it's center line. Would the water line have provided more resistence and is
>that why it was suggested?
>
>Thanks again.
>Mike Casmey
>Mpls, MN. RV-4
>
>
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
(Working on Fuselage - RV6A)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-6 wing kit for sale |
My neighbor decided to hang it up. Too many irons in the fire, so he has a
1-year old wing kit which has been inventoried, but is still in the original
crate. He paid $3300, he said, but is willing to cut a deal. This was
before the pre-punched skin option, but it does have the electric aileron
trim option, I believe.
It is located on the north side of Ft. Worth, TX, Tom Silva can be reached
at (817) 581-6352.
Bill Eslick
Just finished tail (Only took 3 years!)
Starting wing spars.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BARNES_ERIC(at)tandem.com |
| Subject: | Bob Hoover Update |
I tried to send this yesterday, but didn't see it go through. For all those
interested in this saga... good news!
Eric
------------ ORIGINAL ATTACHMENT --------
SENT 10-18-95 FROM SMTPGATE (cwhittle(at)uoknor.edu)
The Aerospace America Airshow office in Oklahoma City has received a
recorded message from Mr. Jim Driskoll, Bob Hoover's long time companion and
associate, stating that, as of this morning, Mr. Hoover has received a 2nd
class medical certificate from the FAA.
A call from another source confirms that Mr. Hoover received the certificate
ligitimately through medical channels.
Carl Whittle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dan_burns(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 Kit options in advance |
Gary,
Your points are well noted. What I have found on the RVs I've been
flying in (and taxiing in) is that you can still get +/- 90 degrees of
tailwheel movement with Van's stock tailwheel, therefore no real
advantage with the swivel unit.
With respect to pushing it back, I've seen a lot of clever designs for
tow bars which does not add any weight to the basic aircraft.
The one issue that hasn't been mentioned yet, is the raising of the
tail by approx 1.5 inches. Yes this will give you better visibility
when taxiing but the drawback is on landing. What I have noticed to
date is that on the RV models, there is a tendency for the tailwheel
to hit first on landing. Van even recently extended the RV-4 gear to
ensure the flare attitude is the same as the three-point attitude to
reduce the probobility of this happening. By going for the full
swivel tailwheel, you WILL be screwing up the designed flare/3-point
relationship since the full swivel hangs down further. Hitting the
tailwheel even sooner will cause the mains to hit harder (could
contribute to those loose firewall rivets we've been reading about).
Anyway, this was the criteria I used when, after much deabte with
myself, I decided to stick with Van's design. Most of Van's decisions
were made for a reason.
Danny Burns
RV-6 21044
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Fwd: RV-List: RV6 Kit options in advance
Date: 19/10/95 12:42
The advantages to the full swivel tail wheel are 1) tighter turns while
taxiing and 2) it's MUCH easyer to push the aircraft around on the ground.
Without the swivel option you will find that you are always picking up the
tail to swing the aircraft around. This may not sound like a chore now, but
I can tell you that after building my plane, my back is shot. It's much
easyer to push it than lift it.
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
---------------------
From: nmsu.edu!rbusick(at)matronics.com (Robert Busick)
Date: 95-10-18 19:42:42 EDT
Gary
What are the pros and cons on the full swivel tailwheel?
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
> If you plan to install the full swivel tail wheel (which IMO you should)
let
> Vans' know when you purchase the fuselage kit and they will supply you with
> the correct tail wheel spring.
>
> Gary Corde
> RV-6 N211GC
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 303FS, Whiteman AFB, MO, |
DSN 975-3620 or 3489)
I've heard through this list that band saws, drill presses, belt sanders and
bench grinders (among others) are good things to have. Can you be more
specific? Sears is having a big sale this weekend; I stopped by this week
and was amazed at the differences between the different models. So, my
questions are:
a. band saw - tabletop or free-standing?
- how "deep" should it be? (10", 12", 16")
- what are the min and max speeds it should be capable of?
- what type and number of blades should I include?
b. drill press - same as above
- desired horsepower?
c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
- horsepower/speed?
d. bench grinder - 4" or 6" wheel?
- other important options/considerations?
All of these things have a ton of available accessories. Which ones are
important? I'll no doubt use them for building the jigs too; are there
things I'll need for the woodworking aspects that are in addition to whatever
else you come up with?
I may also buy some of this stuff used (auctions, etc.). What things should I
watch out for when buying used?
I'm still a ways off from convincing the wife, but I figure if I load up the
garage with tools, eventually she'll want me to use them. <;^)
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E Steffens" <RESTEFFE(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com> |
| Subject: | Swivel Tailwheel |
Dave Burns wrote:
>The one issue that hasn't been mentioned yet, is the raising of the
>tail by approx 1.5 inches. Yes this will give you better visibility
>when taxiing but the drawback is on landing. What I have noticed to
>date is that on the RV models, there is a tendency for the tailwheel
>to hit first on landing. Van even recently extended the RV-4 gear to
>ensure the flare attitude is the same as the three-point attitude to
>reduce the probobility of this happening. By going for the full
>swivel tailwheel, you WILL be screwing up the designed flare/3-point
>relationship since the full swivel hangs down further. Hitting the
>tailwheel even sooner will cause the mains to hit harder (could
>contribute to those loose firewall rivets we've been reading about).
I just ordered my fuselage kit and told them I wanted the springs for
the full swivel tailwheel. My kit won't be ready for shipment until
11/20 so I have some time to decide if the swivel tailwheel is worth
getting. My Citabria has a swivel tailwheel which I would hate to be
without, but how that relates to an RV-6, I don't know. Haven't priced
the swivel wheel for the -6 yet. I wonder if my landings will be
precise enough so that 1.5 inches will make a difference. Anybody else
have some thoughts. How much extra money and time are involved with
the swivel wheel? Can you experienced RV-6 drivers tell the
difference?
Dick Steffens
RV-6 Waiting on fuse in North Carolina
RESTEFFE(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Brown <jmbrown(at)aimnet.com> |
| Subject: | Dupont Vari-Prime Question |
Quick question, I have several parts that have already been sprayed with Zinc Chromate.
I would like to switch over to the Dupont system but wonder if there
will be any interaction problems with the Dupont parts and the Zinc Chromate
parts.
Should I scotchbrite the zinc parts back down to bare metal and re paint?
Thanks in advace.
PS: YEAH BOB HOOVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Fitting F649/F650 on a 6A |
I am installing the baggage side panels in my 6-A and have some
questions.
1) Does F650 overlap F649 and both attach to F624 via AN 515 screws?
2) Do you trim the large flanges of both the F649 and F650 where they
meet at F624 to:
a) Butt flush with F624?
b) Overlap each other by notching both F649 and F650?
This looks like a purely cosmetic decision but I was just wondering
what others have done.
Ross Mickey
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Tool Specifics |
>
> I've heard through this list that band saws, drill presses, belt sanders and
> bench grinders (among others) are good things to have. Can you be more
> specific? Sears is having a big sale this weekend; I stopped by this week
> and was amazed at the differences between the different models. So, my
> questions are:
>
> a. band saw - tabletop or free-standing?
> - how "deep" should it be? (10", 12", 16")
> - what are the min and max speeds it should be capable of?
> - what type and number of blades should I include?
Table top should be ok. Any size will do in fact, but my experience
with the small variable speed Sears bandsaw is that it's pretty
el-cheapo. I finally made em take it back after it broke (still under
warranty) and had a big fiasco trying to get them to fix it right. The
bigger floor models look to me like they are built a lot better. Delta
12" table top is pretty good too, that's what I have now. You can get
away with fixed speed (my Delta is fixed speed) but it's kind of nice to
have variable speed for the few times you're cutting steel.
>
> b. drill press - same as above
> - desired horsepower?
I think a floor model is a good idea here. Don't remember what HP mine is.
>
> c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
> - horsepower/speed?
Either one's probably OK. Those combination 1" belt sander and 6" disk
sanders are pretty handy.
>
> d. bench grinder - 4" or 6" wheel?
> - other important options/considerations?
6"
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Dupont Vari-Prime Question |
<199510201545.IAA29909(at)aimnet.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> Quick question, I have several parts that have already been sprayed with Zinc
Chromate. I would like to switch over to the Dupont system but wonder if ther
e will be any interaction problems with the Dupont parts and the Zinc Chromate
parts.
>
> Should I scotchbrite the zinc parts back down to bare metal and re paint?
You should find the zinc chromate easy to remove with acetone (maybe
MEK?) and a scotchbrite pad. That's one of the drawbacks to zinc
chromate, its not real resistive to solvents.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (303) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (303) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tool Specifics |
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
>I've heard through this list that band saws, drill presses, belt sanders and
>bench grinders (among others) are good things to have. Can you be more
>specific? Sears is having a big sale this weekend; I stopped by this week
>and was amazed at the differences between the different models. So, my
>questions are:
>
>a. band saw - tabletop or free-standing?
> - how "deep" should it be? (10", 12", 16")
> - what are the min and max speeds it should be capable of?
> - what type and number of blades should I include?
>
>b. drill press - same as above
> - desired horsepower?
>
>c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
> - horsepower/speed?
>
>d. bench grinder - 4" or 6" wheel?
> - other important options/considerations?
Ha Jim!
In response to your too questions, I just went through all that and I would
say don't make a big deal about it. You seem to have time on your side as I
did, I would suggest a few things here. The rule of thumb for me was on the
larger items, get the biggest, best I could afford. You will have these
things in your shop for years to come and you WILL learn to rely on them
alot.
1.) The saw was a real problem for me. I scratched around for a long time in
making a decision. I finally ended up with a Delta 14" floor model. This was
more than I wanted to spend but now I am very happy I bought it. ($650.) I
got the roller base as a "free" gift special and found that to be a great
add-on. The saw weighs alot and with the roller base you can move it easily.
It has a 1/2 HP motor that does well. If you want to be more conservative you
can find a saw at Sears made by a company named, I think it was Robi...? It
is much better made than the Sears bench model. I looked at the Black and
Decker and Delta bench units also. The Robi or the Delta would be the best
choice. My problem with the bench units is they are small and underpowered.
One fifth HP is not very much but it will work on "normal" things. I would
not bother with variable speed saws unless you plan to cut steel or iron. For
aircraft metal the constant speed saw with regular 1/4" wood blades (6TPI)
work fine with some minor cleanup after the cut.
2.) I did buy a Sears 13" 2/3 HP floor model drill press. After looking at
everything from light industrial to junk I found this model to be a great
value. ($249.) Most of the presses in this size range are made in China by
one or two plants and they change the name. The 13" is variable speed and
works wonderfully. Be sure to install the chuck as straight as possible when
you assemble it or the bits will "wiggle."
3.) I have a Sears 1" belt sander, 1/2 HP with a 6" disk attached. This saves
a lot of time and has been great to have. Why file when you can sand... Ask
the sales person if they have last years model availible. There is no
difference and it cost half what the current model is selling for. ($149.)
4.) On the bench grinder I think I could of done better. I bought a Black and
Decker 6" unit from WalMart. It was only $39.00 but in my opinion is kind of
cheap. It works well enough but it is not balanced perfectly and I have
always been cautious when it comes to spinning things that could come apart
and remove your head. Just a thought. I think 6" is big enough but I would
opt for a better quality unit next time around.
You can figure on spending another $6 - $800. on aircraft specific type
tooling. That list can get long. Check out the RV home page for a good list.
I suggest you won't go wrong by shopping with Avery (1-800-654-8379). Bob
will be of great help in answering your questions and you won't find better
customer service anywhere. His prices are fair also.
One last thing, DON'T buy a diaphragm type "oil-less" aircompressor. They
make too too much noise. Get a piston type, one or two stage with a 20 or 30
gallon tank, 1 HP or BIGGER. It is the CFM that counts here. Lots of volume
is better. 10 CFM is not too much but less will work if all you use it for is
riveting.
Hope this helps and saves you some trouble.
Kevin & Trudy Williams
RV-6A EMP #24438
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Tool Specifics |
On Fri, 20 Oct 1995 Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil wrote:
> a. band saw - tabletop or free-standing?
> - how "deep" should it be? (10", 12", 16")
> - what are the min and max speeds it should be capable of?
> - what type and number of blades should I include?
I prefer a table top since I don't use it much and I can store it under
the workbench. I have the small 2 wheel Delta (8 inch?) with a standard
wood cutting blade. Cuts Al. like butter but does leave a rough edge. I
don't think you need to cut any steel for an RV, so the variable speed
isn't a necessity.
> b. drill press - same as above
> - desired horsepower?
Speed is more important than horsepower. You need to turn < 500 RPM for
using a flycutter (to cut lightening holes) or drilling steel. Mine goes
down to 200 or so. Definitely get a free standing. You'll use this a lot.
> c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
> - horsepower/speed?
Don't have one. Haven't missed it. I just use a grider & scotchbrite
wheel for dressing edges, etc.
> d. bench grinder - 4" or 6" wheel?
> - other important options/considerations?
Get a 6" with sealed bearings. They're still pretty cheap.
> All of these things have a ton of available accessories. Which ones are
> important? I'll no doubt use them for building the jigs too; are there
> things I'll need for the woodworking aspects that are in addition to whatever
> else you come up with?
A skilsaw is handy for building the jigs. Apparently a table saw works
great for tapering the wing spar flanges, but I used the bandsaw.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Fitting F649/F650 on a 6A |
Ross ... there seem to be many versions, but the stuff below works, and is
fairly easy to do.
>I am installing the baggage side panels in my 6-A and have some
>questions.
>
>1) Does F650 overlap F649 and both attach to F624 via AN 515 screws?
Yes, but the other way aound, since the F-649 is the removeable piece, you
might as well put it on top.
>
>2) Do you trim the large flanges of both the F649 and F650 where they
>meet at F624 to:
> a) Butt flush with F624?
> b) Overlap each other by notching both F649 and F650?
I presume you are refering to the baggage floor flange at the bottom of the
parts.
I angled both flanges back to give a neat 60 degree angle at the bend. I
cut back the F-649 floor flange so that it stopped at the F-624 edge.
I made it so that the F-650 (the fixed piece) had it's flange under the
floor panels, and the removeable F-649 has it's flange above the floor
panel. I cut the F-649 so that it slides backwards over the flap actuator
tube (electric flaps version) per the George O. video.
I have also seen this F-649 piece made such that the floor flange is under
the floor panels, and the F-649 panel now must slide downwards over the
flap tube. If you are going to carpet the baggage floor, I think the way I
did it is a little easier. If you don't carpet this area, then the second
way will look a little neater. If you are building the manual flaps
version, then the flap cross tube is ahead of the F-605 bulkhead, and the
second way would probably be better.
>
>This looks like a purely cosmetic decision but I was just wondering
>what others have done.
I scratched my head a little on this one too :^)
>
>Ross Mickey
... hope this helps ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701
... waiting for finish kit, now went
to 12 weeks delivery.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dupont Vari-Prime Question |
On Fri, 20 Oct 1995, John Brown wrote:
> Quick question, I have several parts that have already been sprayed with Zinc
Chromate. I would like to switch over to the Dupont system but wonder if there
will be any interaction problems with the Dupont
> parts and the Zinc Chromate parts.
>
> Should I scotchbrite the zinc parts back down to bare metal and re paint?
I use the two together all the time with no problems.
BTW, I found a sweet deal on ZInc Chromate. A surplus place called
"Banair" sells three 12-oz spray cans of mil-spec zinc-chromate for 10
bucks. The sell a gallon can of it for $12.50
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Tool Specifics |
| From: | Bill Downey <billd(at)ibmoto.com> |
Here's my thought's on tools for RV's.
My basic premise is based upon the fact that I love to build things
and will continue to use these tools long after I finish my RV. I try
to buy the best made tool that meets the requirement of the job and
possible future jobs, while trying to keep costs reasonable. Reason
costs vary considerably from person to person.
> a. band saw - tabletop or free-standing?
> - how "deep" should it be? (10", 12", 16")
> - what are the min and max speeds it should be capable of?
> - what type and number of blades should I include?
>
For cutting aluminum you want a high speed bandsaw like those used for
woodworking. A 3 or 4 tpi hooked tooth blade works best. The finer
tooth blades designed for cutting steel gum up much too quickly. The
depth of the cut is probably not too important for most RV
applications.
For the quality of cuts you need for the metal work in an RV a bench
top model would work fine. In general I prefer floor tools to stand,
because I never have enough bench space. The bench tools I do have, I
have build a mobile stand to allow easy portability and not take up my
bench space.
> b. drill press - same as above
> - desired horsepower?
>
A wide range of speeds or belt ratios is desirable here. Most drill
presses have plenty of horsepower. If you are also interested in using
this for woodworking, the floor model is definitely prefered here. I
would want at least 12" of throat depth here. More is better up to a
point.
> c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
> - horsepower/speed?
>
I have a 1" belt with and 8" disk on the side. I use it constantly
for cleaning up and shaping parts. The 1" belt makes working with
small pieces easier. Though a 4" belt would be more useful for
woodworking.
> d. bench grinder - 4" or 6" wheel?
> - other important options/considerations?
>
I think a 6" wheel is the minimum size you would want for a grinder.
> All of these things have a ton of available accessories. Which ones are
> important? I'll no doubt use them for building the jigs too; are there
> things I'll need for the woodworking aspects that are in addition to whatever
> else you come up with?
>
A circular saw, an electric drill/screwdriver (I like the new battery
powered ones for their convience.), a tape measure and a level is
probably all you need for building most of the jigs.
> I may also buy some of this stuff used (auctions, etc.). What things should I
> watch out for when buying used?
>
> I'm still a ways off from convincing the wife, but I figure if I load up the
> garage with tools, eventually she'll want me to use them. <;^)
>
> Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | RV6 options. was: RV4 Kit for sale |
I just thought of another two RV6 options....
1. Apparently Vans will special order canopy tint options. It was in
a bit of literature I saw a few years ago, but was not on any of my finish
kit option questions, even when I spoke to the help line.
Std. is a light grey tiny ....
Option is either clear or darker grey.
I would guess they might entertain a special order ($$) tint (e.g., blue or
bronze) if you really want something special. Talking to sailplane canopy
makers, as long as they can get what you want in Plexiglas, they can mold
it!
2. Steps (left and/or right) if you are building a RV6A. They can be
retrofitted, but are much easier to build in before the baggage floors get
installed. These are offered in Vans Optional Parts Catalog.
>>
>
>Also
>- Right side brakes
>- fresh air vent kit (NACA ducts on fuse. side)
>
Gil Alexander
RV-6A, #20701 ... working on rudder pedals
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 303FS, Whiteman AFB, MO, |
DSN 975-3620 or 3489)
charset=US-ASCII
Wow, what a great response! I posted this Friday morning, and by 4:30, I
must have had 10 answers! Thanks to all of you who helped out...the
responses were just what I was hoping for. However, the one I liked best was
from Dave Barnhart...I just HAD to quote from it!
>Jim:
>> c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
>To tell you the truth, I almost never use the belt on my sander. I use
>the dick a lot though.
>Best Regards,
>Dave Barnhart
>Rv-6 sn 23744
I'll bet that's why the wife doesn't mind you building an airplane, right
Dave?
I couldn't resist the opportunity.<:^)
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | CNC Milling Machines... |
Hello Everyone,
Since there appears to be a number of tool experts on the List, this seems
like a natural place to ask this question.
I have an machined aluminum (6061 T6) faceplate in the fuel managment product
I'm working on. I just got the word from the machinest that I have used in the
past that the price he quoted me in the past was actually way too low.
I'm now looking at a significate increase in product cost due to more
expensive machining work. I have shopped around both locally and across the
country and prices seem pretty consistant.
So here's the question. I noticed in the back of Sport Aviation a couple of
ads for "home" milling machines by companies like "Smithy" and the like.
They indicate that prices start at around $1000. What do you get for $1000?
What is the quality of these machines? Most importantly, what are the
CNC (computer interface) capabilities of these machines. I have plunty of
computer experience and an available system to use for this purpose. Can
I get anything in a CNC mill worth buying for, say, under $5000?
The parts I need to make are about 2.5" x 2.5" x .357-.5". Any information
and insight into this area would be most apperciated.
Thanks,
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | kingm(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Monte King) |
| Subject: | Re: E-Mail Addresses |
>>--------------
>>Since Matt has changed the setup for the list to show rv-list(at)matronics.com
>>as the sender of all messages, it is much harder to reply to an individual
>>directly when the subject of the reply is not much interest to the listers.
>> May I suggest that when you send a message to the list, that you add your
>>E-Mail address as a separate line after your name. That way by copying that
>>line to the scratch pad, it will be easier to reply directly to the real
>>sender and not clutter up the list when the message is really just for one
>>individual. Thanks
>>
>>Jim Cone
>>jamescone(at)aol.com
>>Working on finishing kit for RV-6A
>>--------------
>
>
>I suspect the problem you are having is due to the way AOL processes email
>headers. In the messages that are sent out from the rv-list, there are
>two "from" addresses. The first one looks something like this:
>
> From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Sun Oct 15 09:23:24 1995
>
>The other looks something like this:
>
> From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt G. Dralle)
>
>Notice the ":" in the second line. Mailers (the delivery software, not
>the program you use to actually read your mail) will use the "From" address
>to return errors and other messages about delivery problems. Having this
>set to "owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com" means that only I get to read all that
>garbage and posters to the List don't have to know about it. The second
>"From:" (note the ":") will always have the *actual poster's email address*.
>This second From address is the line that mail readers are suppose to use
>when listing mailbox contents. Obviously, AOL is using the "From" line
>and not the "From:" line when creating a directory of email. All of you
>on AOL and any other Email Service Provider should contact your technical
>support and complain about this behavior.
>
>
>Hope this clears things up a bit.
>
>Matt Dralle
>RV-List Admin.
>
>
>
Matt,
I'm using Eudora as my e-mail program and am having the same 'problem' as
Jim. If anyone knows the trick to reconfigure Eudora to display the actual
sender, please let me know.
Monte King
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt G. Dralle" <dralle(at)popcorn.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Test Message, Please Ignore... |
This is a test message...
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Firewall Wiring, Plumbing, etc. |
Does anyone have a drawing showing locations for controls, wires, fuel lines,
etc. in the RV6 firewall? Also for the instrument panel. A builder who is
not on the list asked me to inquire. Of course, thats part of the fun to
make your own design, but he would like to have a starting place.
Jim Stugart RV6/6A
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: E-Mail Addresses |
>--------------
>>>--------------
>>>Since Matt has changed the setup for the list to show rv-list(at)matronics.com
>>>as the sender of all messages, it is much harder to reply to an individual
>>>directly when the subject of the reply is not much interest to the listers.
>>> May I suggest that when you send a message to the list, that you add your
>>>E-Mail address as a separate line after your name. That way by copying that
>>>line to the scratch pad, it will be easier to reply directly to the real
>>>sender and not clutter up the list when the message is really just for one
>>>individual. Thanks
>>>
>>>Jim Cone
>>>jamescone(at)aol.com
>>>Working on finishing kit for RV-6A
>>>--------------
>>
>
>Matt,
>
>I'm using Eudora as my e-mail program and am having the same 'problem' as
>Jim. If anyone knows the trick to reconfigure Eudora to display the actual
>sender, please let me know.
>
>Monte King
>RV-6A
>
>--------------
Monte 'et all,
I just tried the latest version of Eudoro Pro (V2.1.1) with the messages from
the RV-List. In the "Who" field, appears the actual sender of each mail.
You might try getting the latest version of Eudora - 2.1.1 has a lot of nice
new features anyway. Among other other places, you might try anonymous ftp
to ftp.llnl.gov and look in the /eudora directory for the latest version.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ChrisL3064(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Swivel Tailwheel |
I have an RV-6 180HP constant speed Hartzell---installed an ACS full swivel
tailwheel with the modified tailwheel spring. There really should be no
noticeable difference with the original tailwheel if you use the modified
spring. The RV-6 will not fully stall in the 3 point position anyway. The
full swivel wheel is great to have in turning, parking, etc. The RV-6 is
fairly easy to land anyway so I wouldn't worry about any problems with
landing. It is slightly heavier and can be sheared if you catch it in a ditch
or hole while turning. Since I have the heavier engine and constant speed
prop up front the liitle extra weight in back actually helps! I have no
regrets in using it on my plane!
ChrisL3064(at)AOL.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Justice's instructions |
To Frank Justice and/or Fellow Listers:
I have had several local requests for Frank's instructions which I recommend
highly. However, since we all seem to have such varying computer systems, are
Frank's instructions available in plain old ASCII text format)? This would
make conversion and printed pretty straightforward.
Thanks,
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: Tool Specifics |
You wrote:
>
>I've heard through this list that band saws, drill presses, belt
sanders and bench grinders (among others) are good things to have.
Can you be more specific? Sears is having a big sale this weekend;
I stopped by this week and was amazed at the differences between
the different models. So, my questions are:
I have a fairly small Sears table-top drill press that is OK, but
if I had more money I would have bought a larger one. I don't
own a belt sander, so will be interested in the responses. As a
result of the chatter here, I just bought the Sears band saw --
10 inch variable speed -- that I hope will be fine.
The real reason for this is that I am using an older bench grinder
that I had for several years. It has shields for both wheels. My
advice would be to get one that has the wheels very sitting out
there by themselves. You will want to put a scotchbrite wheel on
one side and it is much easier to work the piece of the wheels are
not encumbered with shields, as mine are.
Best Regards,
Bill Costello
RV-6 on empennage
Chicago
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com (Alex Munro) |
| Subject: | CNC machines. Sorry. |
The following is a repost of a message that looked pretty crappy when it hit
the list. As a hint to you other people, don't type 150 lines in the
subject box...
I just got the word from the machinest that I have used in the
>>>> >past that the price he quoted me in the past was actually way too low.
>>>> >I'm now looking at a significate increase in product cost due to more
>>> >expensive machining work. I have shopped around both locally and
across the
>>>> >country and prices seem pretty consistant.
>>>>
>>>> >So here's the question. I noticed in the back of Sport Aviation a
couple of
>>>> >ads for "home" milling machines by companies like "Smithy" and the like.
>>>> >They indicate that prices start at around $1000. What do you get for
$1000?
>>>> >What is the quality of these machines? Most importantly, what are the
>>>> >CNC (computer interface) capabilities of these machines. I have plunty of
>>>> >computer experience and an available system to use for this purpose. Can
>>>> >I get anything in a CNC mill worth buying for, say, under $5000?
>>>> >The parts I need to make are about 2.5" x 2.5" x .357-.5". Any
information
would be most apperciated.
>>>> >
>>>> >Thanks,
>>>> I'll take at least part of this one. I am a CNC programmer by trade. I
>>>> have programed literally thousands of aircraft parts on CNC machines
>>>> (punching and milling). Unfortunately none of the parts were for my plane
>>>> (mostly Boeing commercial planes and the F-16). I currently program
>>>> aircraft and truck tooling for some rather large 3-axis machines (just did
>>>> master tooling for the spinner on the V-2 Osprey), and we're getting quotes
>>>> on a 5-axis machine with 100"x50"x30" travel.
>>>> While I am not in a position to judge the suitability of the Smithy
unit for
>>>> it's machining ability (though I've heard they are damn handy), I am quite
>>>> sure it is not adaptable to CNC work. In addition to having seen ads for
>>>> the Smithy unit I have recently seen ads in RC modeler magazine about a 3
>>>> axis CNC mill (although I am quite sure that it is actually an NC
>>>> machine)for $1695. I called on that one and it has quite small travel
(like
>>>> 3"x4"x8") and is driven from a PC. He has upgrades to make it a horizontal
>>>> mill (handy), a 4th axis rotary table (for another $1100), and more
advanced
>>>> programming software. It is capable of cutting a compound 3D surface (Which
>>>> is one of my requirements)
>>>> Another machine that I saw had travel more like 12x18x1.5 inches. It
>>>> operates strictly from HPGL files (a Hewlett-Packard plotter format
that any
>>>> CAD program and even some paintbrush programs should be able to output) and
>>>> only works in "step" depths based on the pen number (1-8) of the plot file.
>>>> This unit is $5500 and is not upgradable to allow it to do surfacing.
>>>> After that I decided to drag out the engineering stuff and make some phone
>>>> calls. I started checking out linear motion devices, servo motors,
>>>> controllers, ball screws, blah, blah. You can actually buy and assemble
>>>> everything except the frame. I quickly designed a very stout frame using
>>>> Cadkey that I would be able to fabricate at work. made some choices and
>>>> came up with the following:
>>>> I can make a 3 axis mill with 8x8x18 inch travel that is driven by a
host PC
>>>> for about $7500 in materials. I could make a 27x27x30 with a 10" 4th axis
>>>> in the head for about $16,000 in materials. The best I could do on a dinky
>>>> 3 axis (like 4x4x8 inches) was about $3300. Note that I am not a company
>>>> selling machines. I am merely happen to have gone through the motions in
>>>> getting information for "fun" (hey, some people smack themselves with a
>>>> hammer) and I'm providing the costs here for reference only. I was hoping
>>>> that I could make a small mill for cheap, even if just for a hobby thing.
>>>>
>>>> The above machines were all assumed to use stepper motors with 200 step/rev
>>>> rotary encoders (it cost about $375 per axis for a rotary encoder and the
>>>> controller is much more expensive to actuall get the C in CNC), crossed
>>>> roller ways, fully supported rails, and a 5 horse spindle motor. It could
>>>> certainly eat aluminum extrusion with no problem. I would guess that I
>>>> could easily make a machine capable of running +/- .005 all day.
That's not
>>>> really great by any real standards. Our Mazak is certified to 90
millionths
>>>> of an inch repeatability. As you can see the price starts kind of high and
>>>> goes up slowly as the table gets much larger. The above prices didn't
>>>> include a snappy looking sheetmetal enclosure, a coolant pump, spindles,
>>>> tooling or anyone's time. It's not difficult to see how our 60x30x30 inch
>>>> Fadal at $70,000 is actually somewhat of a bargain (even if it's not a
great
>>>> machine).
>>>> When I compare this to buying an old 3 axis Bridgeport it still looks
pretty
>>>> good. The Bridgeport would be capable (even in it's old age) of +/- .005,
>>>> and the last ones I programmed had a 30x15x12 table on them. You could
>>>> probably find a turn key one of those for about $15,000 with some tooling.
>>>> However, their controller cards are getting old and they aren't being
>>>> supported any more.
>>>>
>>>> At any rate, sorry to ramble on like that. Your friend fell into the same
>>>> trap I've fallen in to. He agreed to do something basically as a favor.
>>>> You hate to gouge someone you know (a faceless corporation perhaps ).
>>>> When I work "outside" jobs, I charge $35 per hour to design/program for
>>>> people. The problem is that you normally quote people a number as a WAG,
>>>> and you don't want to have to come back for more money later. I rarely
make
>>>> very much money at it by the time person changes their mind 3 times, or the
>>>> part turns out to be a complete bitch after you look at it closely. As an
>>>> employee of a job shop, however, I've seen what people are quoted for
simple
>>>> machine work. It's a shame because a lot of it really isn't that hard,
it's
>>>> just the overhead costs of running CNC machines.
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious what your panel looks like. If I thought there were enough
RV parts to keep me busy at home I'd buy a machine and get to work.
>>>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Tool Specifics |
Jim, I wish I had the RVlist to query when I was buying tools. You want
the deepest throat on the band saw you can get. Anything else is icing on
the cake. I went for floor stand models simply because I can only have
so much table top space, and I can walk right up to the machines and use
them, without having to clear a space on a tabletop, move the item into
position, then when done, put it away and get back to whatever I was
doing on the tabletop before I was interupted.
Many guys on the list say they use a wood blade with no problem, but
since I pretty much put woodworking on hold while I build my bird, I put
a metal blade on the bandsaw, and anything I have had to cut in the way
of wood had been cut on the metal blade. I figure wood will not affect
the metal blade as much as metal will affect a wood blade. Speed isn't
that critical on the band saw when cutting aluminum.
Drill press... I have a floorstand model, same reason as above. It gets
down to 500 rpm. and this seems to be ideal for most of what I have to
drill, as well as working fine with the flywheel cutter...WITH THE PROPER
PRECAUTIONS!!! If you have any questions about those, ask. I have
developed a reliable method of cutting lightening holes without risking
life, limb etc..
Belt sander... 1" belt sander is invaluable!!! The more horsepower the
better, much more important than speed. You won't want it to go very fast
anyway. Mine is single speed, fairly slow. This is good, you don't want
to build up too much heat anyway.
Grinder... When I got my belt sander, I put the grinder away and haven't
used it since. I chuck my 6" scotchbrite wheel (and the smaller ones too)
into the Drill press on 500rmp, works extremely well!
Jeff
RV4 wings and stuff
FT. Collins, Co.
(Think snow!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Dupont Vari-Prime Question |
How can I get ahold of this "Banair" outfit, I just ran out of
Zinc'Chromate primer! (Is this list great, or what?)
Jeff
rv4
FT. Collins, Co.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bq535(at)freenet.uchsc.edu (Dane Heule) |
| Subject: | Re: Swivel Tailwheel |
>
> >The one issue that hasn't been mentioned yet, is the raising of the
> >tail by approx 1.5 inches. Yes this will give you better visibility
> >when taxiing but the drawback is on landing. What I have noticed to
> >date is that on the RV models, there is a tendency for the tailwheel
> >to hit first on landing. Van even recently extended the RV-4 gear to
> >ensure the flare attitude is the same as the three-point attitude to
> >reduce the probobility of this happening. By going for the full
> >swivel tailwheel, you WILL be screwing up the designed flare/3-point
> >relationship since the full swivel hangs down further. Hitting the
> >tailwheel even sooner will cause the mains to hit harder (could
> >contribute to those loose firewall rivets we've been reading about).
>
>
> Dick Steffens
> RV-6 Waiting on fuse in North Carolina
> RESTEFFE(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com
>
>
>
Dick:
I have retrofitted a full swivel tailwheel to my RV4 and I think this is
one of the best changes I have made to my aircraft. I don't have any real
problem with the tail hitting first other than you should be carefull
during a full stall landing to touch the tail wheel down easy. You can
damage the bottom of the rudder with the top of the tail wheel attatch
bolt if it contacts the rudder during a hard landing. I have not had any
problem with this but it is something to be carefull of.
Fly Right
Dane Heule 18LR
Denver Colorado
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | 6A Verticle Stab Skin |
It appears that I'll need to do considerable triming of the Verticle Stab
skin - off the tip. The tip angle of the delivered piece is significantly
greater than the 97.5 degrees shown in the plans. Have the rest of you
experienced the same?? Any tricks to making a nice straight cut that you can
share?
Thanks for your help.
Dick Flunker
First time builder - RFlunker(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Shelby1138(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List:Flush Oil Cover Latch |
A friend of mine here in Nashville is looking for a source of the flush oil
access cover latches he has seen on some RVs. Anyone knowing where he might
find one can call on his toll free number or E-mail me.
David Hudgins
1-800-883-5555
Thanks in advance
Shelby Smith
Skinning wings in Nashville
RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Dupont Vari-Prime Question |
On Sat, 21 Oct 1995, Jeffrey Hall wrote:
> How can I get ahold of this "Banair" outfit, I just ran out of
> Zinc'Chromate primer! (Is this list great, or what?)
> Jeff
Bainair's phone number is 909-849-8323
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tools...(Chatter) |
On Fri, 20 Oct 1995 Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil wrote:
> >To tell you the truth, I almost never use the belt on my sander. I use
> >the dick a lot though.
>
> >Best Regards,
> >Dave Barnhart
> >Rv-6 sn 23744
>
> I'll bet that's why the wife doesn't mind you building an airplane, right
> Dave?
my sides hurt from laughing. And just the other day, I felt so proud of
myself because I had finally started using the Spell-checker...
(bviously, I meant the *disc* sander :-) )
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Tools...(Chatter) |
On Fri, 20 Oct 1995 Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil wrote:
> >To tell you the truth, I almost never use the belt on my sander. I use
> >the dick a lot though.
>
> >Best Regards,
> >Dave Barnhart
> >Rv-6 sn 23744
>
> I'll bet that's why the wife doesn't mind you building an airplane, right
> Dave?
my sides hurt from laughing. And just the other day, I felt so proud of
myself because I had finally started using the Spell-checker...
(bviously, I meant the *disc* sander :-) )
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: 6A Verticle Stab Skin |
You wrote:
>
>It appears that I'll need to do considerable triming of the Verticle
Stab skin - off the tip. The tip angle of the delivered piece is
significantly greater than the 97.5 degrees shown in the plans. Have
the rest of you experienced the same?? Any tricks to making a nice
straight cut that you can share?
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Dick Flunker
>First time builder - RFlunker(at)aol.com
>
Hi Dick,
I finished the vertical stab on my RV-6 several months ago.
Yes, I think there is always a considerable amount to cut off the
skins. As several of our very experienced members keep saying,
don't cut any sheet metal until you absolutely have to. That is,
keep your options open as long as possible.
I used an air die grinder (about $35 from Harbor Freight, but I think
I got mine on special for about $20) with a 3 inch (1/32 thick) cutoff
wheel to cut my skins. To keep me from wandering into the "good
stuff", I bought some 3/4 inch aluminum angle iron (2 ft and 3 ft
length after cutting). I put tape on the outside of one side and
c-clamped it to the skin next to my marked cutting line. Worked
great for me and doesn't bend, suage or mark up the metal. A
little clean-up with file and scotchbrite finishes the job.
Hope this helps.
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 6A Verticle Stab Skin |
On Sat, 21 Oct 1995 RFlunker(at)aol.com wrote:
> It appears that I'll need to do considerable triming of the Verticle Stab
> skin - off the tip. The tip angle of the delivered piece is significantly
> greater than the 97.5 degrees shown in the plans. Have the rest of you
> experienced the same?? Any tricks to making a nice straight cut that you can
> share?
That edge of the delivered piece is simply the edge of the aluminum
sheet, so it won't be anywhere near corect. As I recall, you'll need to
trim a couple of inches off at the tip anyway.
I trimmed it using a combination of shears (for the flat, straight
portions) and a cutoff wheel in my dremel tool (for the leading edge). I
cut it about 1/16th inch long, and then filed it to the correct size.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
Addendum on tools.
I notice a lot of comments about floor model vs table model power tools.
I also am short of benchtop space but I'm also short on floor space.
(Work in the garage). I solved the problem by taking a page from Tony
Bengelis who suggested in one of his books that you mount your bench
tools on a rollaround stand. I did just that. My stand is 32" X 32" and
I have a drill press, a 1"belt/8"disc sander, a vise, and a grinder
having a scotch wheel on one end and a fine grinding wheel on the other.
These tools are positioned such that I can operate them all without any
interference. When I close down for the day, I just push the rolling
stand against the work bench and pull the car into place. It could'nt
work better, and the tools are always handy and together.
PS. Dom't sand aluminum with a grinding stone, it loads it up with
aluminum and you constantly need to reface it.
Good luck, Fred, RV-6A
On Fri, 20 Oct 1995 wrb.afres.af.mil!Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Wow, what a great response! I posted this Friday morning, and by 4:30, I
> must have had 10 answers! Thanks to all of you who helped out...the
> responses were just what I was hoping for. However, the one I liked best was
> from Dave Barnhart...I just HAD to quote from it!
>
> >Jim:
>
> >> c. belt sander - 1" belt or 4" belt?
>
> >To tell you the truth, I almost never use the belt on my sander. I use
> >the dick a lot though.
>
> >Best Regards,
> >Dave Barnhart
> >Rv-6 sn 23744
>
> I'll bet that's why the wife doesn't mind you building an airplane, right
> Dave?
>
> I couldn't resist the opportunity.<:^)
>
> Jim
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | Scotch Brite Wheel RPM |
I chuck my Scotch Brite wheel in the drill press.
What is the correct rpm for a Scotch Brite wheel? As fast as the drill
press can go? As slow as the drill press can go?
Thanks
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Where does the battery go?? |
A friend of mine is building an RV-6 and will be using an O-360 with a CS
Prop. He is asking me where the battery should go. Since I have an RV-6
with just a 150 HP and fixed pitch prop I couldn't give him any personal
experience. Is there anyone on the List that has knowledge/personal
experience about whether or not he needs to move the battery to the rear?
Maybe to the back of the passenger's seat?
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | David Chasnoff <74620.2053(at)compuserve.com> |
Hi All. My name is David Chasnoff and I have been enjoying the list for a
couple of weeks. Lots of good info. I live in Reading, PA and work for
Penske Racing. I am working on a RV4 empanage mostly during the off season
at work.
David Chasnoff 74620,2053(at)CIS.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
You wrote:
>
>Hi All. My name is David Chasnoff and I have been enjoying the list
for a
>couple of weeks. Lots of good info. I live in Reading, PA and work for
>Penske Racing. I am working on a RV4 empanage mostly during the off
season
>at work.
>
>David Chasnoff 74620,2053(at)CIS.COM
>
Welcome to the list, Dave, from another member benefitting from all
the great info. Penske! Any ideas for an original engine?
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on empennage
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Reamers and Bold Sizes |
Hi Folks,
Can anyone give me or tell me where to find a small chart of:
Common bolt sizes used in the RV-6, with associated drill sizes
for for "pre-drilling" the hole, and the reamer size to bring it
up to size. Then, if the correct hole is accidentally enlarged,
the next higher drill size, if required, and the reamer size and
bolt size that you would step up to.
And if you can make sense of this you are a crpytologist!
Thanks,
Bill Costello
RV-6
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Laboyteaux(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
I am currently drilling my aft fuselage side skins, and had a question about
drilling them to the main longerons. Vans recomends a 1" spacing, but only
drilling every third hole because of fitting the f-674 and f-675 top skins
later on in the construction. When you install these top skins, you then have
to dimple the top skins, and countersink through the side skins into the
longerons.
I was wondering if anyone had done this differently. What I thought about
doing was to go ahead and drill all of the holes, so I could countersink the
longerons, and dimple the side skins. Then when I put on the top skins, I
could just backdrill through all of the holes. Doing it this way would leave
more material on the side skins because they would be dimpled instead of
being countersunk. Any comments?
Thanks,
Mark LaBoyteaux
LaBoyteaux(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
Kerrville, Texas fly in was very well attended with lots of Rv's there. Guys,
there are some really great builders out there that are producing really
great work. Also, two Harmon Rockets with a real beauty constructed by
Austin, Texas area builder, Mark Fredrick.
Van's was there with their RV-6T and the latest on the RV-8 is that it is a
go, and the tail kit will be ready around Feb for shipping. Cost? Looking at
$12,000 and some change.
HOWARD KIDWELL
howard rv(at)aol.c0m
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Scotch Brite Wheel RPM |
I use it at 500rpm in the drill press and it works fine. BE CAREFUL not
to get a corner of the piece pointed upstream on the wheel, it could
become a missile. The primary advantage of the drill press vice the
grinder mounting is the ability to get at the wheel from all directions
with out any wheel guards or covers getting in the way, but as noted
recently, the grinder isn't much good for aluminun with a grinding wheel
because of the aluminum clogging the stone, so you don't need the grinder
in the way on the benchtop or taking up floorspace.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
Kevin and Trudy write:
One last thing, DON'T buy a diaphragm type "oil-less" aircompressor. =
They
make too too much noise. Get a piston type, one or two stage with a 20 =
or 30
gallon tank, 1 HP or BIGGER. It is the CFM that counts here. Lots of =
volume
is better. 10 CFM is not too much but less will work if all you use it =
for is
riveting.
Hope this helps and saves you some trouble.
Kevin & Trudy Williams
RV-6A EMP #24438
-----------------------------------
I purchased a Sears 5 hp oil-less air compressor and have two =
thoughts...on the compressor that is:
1) It will pump air to anything I want without running out of wind - =
lots of air
2) It is very, very, VERY noisy. It is really a pain in the garage. =
The noise cuts through everything including the insulated enclosure I =
built for it. Even in the hangar I've had guys (unisex usage) come from =
across the field to see what was going on. I wouldn't buy another one.
BFGibbons
bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com
starting wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Solana <102131.2407(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | strobes install. vs. radio noise |
I'm installing wing tip strobes, and am trying to decide whether to use a
central power source or two sepearate power sources, one at each wing tip.
I have heard the argument that the power leads going to the power source
should be short to minimize radio interference. This would suggest using a
single central power source.
I've also heard that the wires running from the power source to the strobe
are a source of radio interference, and should be minimized. This would suggest
a power source in each wing tip, near the strobe itself.
Which is right?
Rick Solana
RV-6a, wings almost finished.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: FlightShop fun survey [7878] |
On Sat, 21 Oct 1995, Trevor Rogers (CS) wrote:
> Hi felow sim pilots,
> While waiting for Flight Shop, I was struck with an idea. I'm
> interested in knowing what aircraft people want or plan to make. So, I
> have this lil' survey (or wish list, or ...whatever you wish to call it).
> Please take a couple minutes to answer these simple questions:
Great Idea!
> 1.) Whats your top 6 favorite civilian aircraft?
RV-6
DC-3
DC-4
Lancair
Beech Staggerwing
GeeBee R-1
> 2.) What's your top 6 favorite military aircraft?
A6M2 Zero
B-17
Corsair
Fokker DR-1
Hawker Hurricane
Spitfire
> 3.) Do you plan to design any aircraft? If yes, then give a short list
> of 5 aircraft you plan to design.
RV-6
Fokker DR-1
DC-4
Hurricane
Citabria
-Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | rudder pedal placement |
A couple of questions on brake pedal location.
I am fitting the pedals to my 6A. I am tall (6' 5") and a lot of it is leg
so I wanted maximum pedal room. On the plans Van calls out to locate the
bearing block 4" from the firewall "variable" according to height but does
not nominate a forward limit. Obviously at some point the pedals or brake
hardware would foul the firewall. Does anyone have a feel for the forward
limit on this location...... or does anyone with a completed plane know how
much clearance they have with full pedal displacement and the blocks in the
standard location?
Also......at least one builder here has jacked up the bearing blocks on 1"
spacers to elevate the pedals so as to avoid inadvertantly applying brakes
during rudder application. Does anyone else have any experience with this
mod? I remember Frank Justice asking for input on this some time ago but I
never saw any outcome.
Thanks.
Leo Davies
leo(at)icn.su.oz.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
Mark
I just went thru this issue three weeks ago. The way he recommends works out
fine. When you drill the holes in the top skin, at 1" centers, you note, you
just csk the holes in the rails thru the side skins. Dimple the top skin,
and you have full depth of these for strength. The side skins are under the
top, and even if not thick enough for a csk in the normal case, will be held
by the top. Also note the 1" spacing is different than almost all the rest
in the fues, 1 1/4. This helps make up for the slight loss of material.
What you have to watch out for is the area at the tail where there is no top
skin, i.e. from the tailpost to former F 609. Here you need to do the 1"
spacing now. Also, if you are doing a sliding canopy, there is a small area
where the top deck skin does not overlap the side skins. I wonder how many
ships have csk side skins in that area?
Bruce Patton
Fues in Jig, some rivets
Motto: Countersink only when it is too thick to dimple!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Wiring, Plumbing, etc. - REPLY |
Get Tony Bengalis' new book "On Engines". There is a complete RV firewall
described that should work for just about anyone.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Where does the battery go?? |
My 6 had 180 HP+constant speed. I put the battery in the normal place and the
c.g. was near the forward limit. On short final I would run out of trim and
have to hold a lot of stick, too much. I considered remaking the trim tab or
moving the battery, but finally just bolted two 5 pound pieces of lead to
the thing, just under the empenage fairing. Moving the batttery entails
other problems. You would have to design a special box, use heavier wiring
(#0 maybe) , and give up some of the limited baggage space, all not good.
Dang it I hate to haul lead around, but it cleared up my trim problem, and
was so simple. I was able to gross it to the 1800# I have on the data plate,
with the c.g. at the aft limit. It will be interesting to see where the
c.g. falls when I complete my 6 to 6A conversion.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: strobes install. vs. radio noise |
>ingle central power source.
> I've also heard that the wires running from the power source to the
>strobe
>are a source of radio interference, and should be minimized. This would
>suggest
>a power source in each wing tip, near the strobe itself.
> W
Since the cables are shielded you should not get much radio interference.
You should not run them close to your antenna wires. The d.c. wiring to the
strobe power supply will cause problems to your mag compass if they are too
near it. I had to shield mine.
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | veideman(at)junction.net (Dusty Veideman) |
| Subject: | Re: Where does the battery go?? |
>A friend of mine is building an RV-6 and will be using an O-360 with a CS
>Prop. He is asking me where the battery should go. Since I have an RV-6
>with just a 150 HP and fixed pitch prop I couldn't give him any personal
>experience. Is there anyone on the List that has knowledge/personal
>experience about whether or not he needs to move the battery to the rear?
>Maybe to the back of the passenger's seat?
>
>John Ammeter
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
>
All the RV's I have seen with or without constant speeds, the batteries go
in the same location, as per plans, just behind the firewall in the centre.
Dusty Veideman
RV-6 Flying for 1 month and 22 days.
180 with fixed pitch.
veideman(at)junction.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
I'm currently laying out my workshop, including lighting and such like, and I
have a long, relatively narrow space where I believe that I could jig up two
wings, end-to-end, and build them both at once. My question to the list is
whether or not the centre post can be shared, or is it better to have two
centre posts, one for each wing, and separate these posts by some sort
distance. If the latter is the case, what would be the minimum practical
distance between the two centre posts?
Any of you that are currently
working on your wings (aren't we all?), I'd appreciate a little advice!
Thanx...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: strobes install. vs. radio noise |
On 22 Oct 1995, Rick Solana wrote:
> I'm installing wing tip strobes, and am trying to decide whether to use a
> central power source or two sepearate power sources, one at each wing tip.
I was originally going to install remote power supplies (one in each
wingtip and one in the tail). HOWEVER, in the meantime, Whelen
discontinued the 20 joule single-strobe dual-flash power supply. Whelen is
switching over to the comet flash supplies. The comet flash supply that
will power three strobes is only 20 bucks more than the one that powers
only a single strobe.
The bottom line is that you can still go with remote supplies, but it is
cost-prohibitive to do so.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Rudder pedal placement |
I am currently fitting the rudder pedals to my 6A (overhead pedals). I am
tall (6ft 5, most of it leg) so would like to maximise leg room available.
In the plans Van calls out for the bearing block to be 4" from the fire wall
"variable according to pilot height". He does not specify the minimum
distance but clearly at some point the pedals or associated brake
paraphenalia will start to foul the firewall. Does anyone have a feel for
this minimum distance or, alternatively does anyone with a finished
aeroplane with the blocks in the standard location know how much clearance
from the firewall they have at full pedal deflection?
On a related matter, it has been suggested to me that I raise the blocks 1"
to avoid inadvertantly activating the brakes during taxiing. Does anyone
have experience with this modification?
Cheers,
Leo
leo(at)icn.su.oz.au
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Wiring, Plumbing, etc. |
Guys,
The Systems tape is now available and shows one possible example of all
these things as well as installation on both ends. You can get the tapes
from Vans, Averys or us (301) 293-1505. Tape is $40 plus shipping. Call us
after 5 p.m. eastern.
Becki Orndorff
>Does anyone have a drawing showing locations for controls, wires, fuel lines,
>etc. in the RV6 firewall? Also for the instrument panel. A builder who is
>not on the list asked me to inquire. Of course, thats part of the fun to
>make your own design, but he would like to have a starting place.
>
>Jim Stugart RV6/6A
>DerFlieger(at)aol.com
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Scotch Brite Wheel RPM |
I have mine mounted on a radial arm saw arbor and it is great. Roger on not
having anything pointed up!!
Howard Kidwell
howardrv(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: 6A Verticle Stab Skin |
Dick,
We have all had to trim. George and I don't trim any of the skins until
just before riveting and then we still leave some to be finished after the
riveting is done.
The trick to a straight finished cut is to sneak up on it. Only cut off
half of what needs to be removed at a time. When you get down to 1/16" to
1/8" left, use vixen file. It will remove a good amount of material at a
time, but will keep the line straight.
You might want to trim the vert stab and the rudder at the same time
giving you a better chance of getting a nice straight line between the two.
With the rudder mounted, the required line might look different than with
the two pieces separate.
Happy building and good luck!
Becki Orndorff
>It appears that I'll need to do considerable triming of the Verticle Stab
>skin - off the tip. The tip angle of the delivered piece is significantly
>greater than the 97.5 degrees shown in the plans. Have the rest of you
>experienced the same?? Any tricks to making a nice straight cut that you can
>share?
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Dick Flunker
>First time builder - RFlunker(at)aol.com
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Dupont Vari-Prime Question |
Vari-Prime contains zinc chromate, so there should be no need to redo
all the pieces with zinc chromate.
>Quick question, I have several parts that have already been sprayed with
Zinc Chromate. I would like to switch over to the Dupont system but wonder
if there will be any interaction problems with the Dupont parts and the Zinc
Chromate parts.
>
>Should I scotchbrite the zinc parts back down to bare metal and re paint?
>
>Thanks in advace.
>
>PS: YEAH BOB HOOVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>-------sig cut here-------
>jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
>jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
>Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder pedal placement |
We just went thru this problem. Here is our solution:
1. Build the foam up in your seats. You have no way to be sure of
the fit without this done. VERY IMPORTANT!!!!! and competely assemble
your brake system on the pedals.
2. The swing on the pedals is 4 inches - totally fore and aft - to
get max rudder swing.
3. You can elevate the whole system which also helps. Took ours up
about 3/8 inch and that allowed us 6'1" folks to get our feet under pedals
nicely AND also gives a better rudder/brake non-interference factor.
4. We found that 3.25 inches was comfortable for us. I think you
would have not problems going back to 2.75 inches and still maintain
clearance for your brakes fully activated. Check it and also make sure your
feet can get behind the pedals when that far back.
>I am currently fitting the rudder pedals to my 6A (overhead pedals). I am
>tall (6ft 5, most of it leg) so would like to maximise leg room available.
>In the plans Van calls out for the bearing block to be 4" from the fire wall
>"variable according to pilot height". He does not specify the minimum
>distance but clearly at some point the pedals or associated brake
>paraphenalia will start to foul the firewall. Does anyone have a feel for
>this minimum distance or, alternatively does anyone with a finished
>aeroplane with the blocks in the standard location know how much clearance
>from the firewall they have at full pedal deflection?
>
>On a related matter, it has been suggested to me that I raise the blocks 1"
>to avoid inadvertantly activating the brakes during taxiing. Does anyone
>have experience with this modification?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Leo
>
>leo(at)icn.su.oz.au
>
>
>
Don Meehan
WSU Cooperative Extension
Island County
Coupeville, WA 98239-5000
206-679-7327
meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Two Wing Jig |
Terry, think of how far you will have to travel, (again and again and
again) to walk around the wings if you don't leave any space between the
ends. I'm getting tired of walking around one wing, let alone two. As
always, whatever you need is on the other side of wing.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John P. Foy" <102370.3241(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Battery location |
My RV-6A has a Lyc-0360 with the Hartzell cs prop. With the battery in the plans
location plus the extras I have on the aircraft, the cg came out .3 inches
forward of the of the most forward cg location shown on the plans. As a result,
I can load the aircraft to my gw limit, 1750 lbs and never get near the aft cg
limit. However, the aircraft is fully trimmable at all airspeeds with the MAC
electric trim on the elevator. As I slow down from cruise speed to landing
configuration, solo, the amount of trim needed is considerable but then the
speed range is also considerable so it all evens out. With a passenger the trim
needed is less as the cg has moved aft.
At full flaps (a little more than 45 degrees) and full fuel, solo, the movement
of the trim tab is very noticable and uses most of the trim available.
Overpowering the full trim tab positions in flight takes some effort but is very
managable. The forward cg tends to make the aircraft more stable but stability
in flight is hard to define when you are in cruise. When the aircraft is all
trimmed out it is all relative to the person flying. On takeoff with the trim
tab in neutral, I pull a little up elevator to break ground at 80 mph. with full
fuel. That is when I notice the fwd cg. solo. As the speed increases it becomes
less noticble and is easily trimmed out. I took Van's Aircraft advice and left
the battery in the forward location. The aircraft has been spun, rolled and
looped (not by me, had a good aerobatic pilot available) and the pilot said that
it does a nicer roll than the RV-4. The other manuevers were routine. The
aircraft now has 166 hours.
BTW, I weighed the aircraft on bathroom scales so the cg could possibly be
closer to the forward cg range. The only part I don't like about the forward
battery location is that it is very difficult for me to get to the battery with
my "plump" midriff. Seems I just can't bend in the middle as I used to when I
was skinny.
Hope this helps
John Foy
102370.3241(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV6 Kit options in advance |
If you order the tail spring from Van's, it is shorter (and tapered) to
make-up for this 1.5 inch difference. My point was that it is better to
install this item now than try to retro-fit it later. I've seen it done and
it's a pain in the @#$%. Most people I know who have flown the aircraft both
ways wonder why the full swivel tail wheel isn't just part of the standard
kit. Install it now and thank me later. BTW, got my tail wheel from Aviation
Products, 114 Bryant, Ojai, CA 93023. $150.00 + $5 for shipping (1992
prices).
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JDelveau(at)aol.com |
Jim S.
I noticed at the end of your message you indacated that you are going to
convert your 6 to a 6A. I would like to here what/why you have decided to
try the tri-gear. I am getting started on the wings on my 6/6A and still
have not decided which way to go. I was lucky enough to have recieved some
dual with Mike Seager this summer in Lincoln, NE in the blue 6. I loved the
airplane and would not hesitate to go taildragger but the 6A has some
advantages also. Oh boy, what to do!!!
(I don't want to start a 6 / 6A debate I feel that I understand the
advantages to each but I would like to hear your and anyone else's personal
reasons that have help to make the switch/decision.)
Jim Delveau
Installing trim servo in elevator and tappering spar strips.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
The problem with drilling all the holes and then backdrilling the skins is
that you run the risk of enlarging the existing holes. This is especially true
if the holes are countersunk first since the hole will have less material
thickness at the hole. The other negative factor would be that there is less
material to guide the drill bit to keep the holes in line. The drill bit may
be able to tilt a little and as a result, the holes in the outer skins will
not align with the inner skin after dimpling.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Re: Rudder pedal placement |
Is there any problem with drilling more than one set of holes in the
longreons?? If this is ok, one could put a few sets of holes in. This
would make them more easily adjustable when the plane is finnished.
Ross Mickey
RV6-A
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder pedal placement
We just went thru this problem. Here is our solution:
1. Build the foam up in your seats. You have no way to be sure
of
the fit without this done. VERY IMPORTANT!!!!! and competely
assemble
your brake system on the pedals.
2. The swing on the pedals is 4 inches - totally fore and aft -
to
get max rudder swing.
3. You can elevate the whole system which also helps. Took ours
up
about 3/8 inch and that allowed us 6'1" folks to get our feet under
pedals
nicely AND also gives a better rudder/brake non-interference factor.
4. We found that 3.25 inches was comfortable for us. I think
you
would have not problems going back to 2.75 inches and still maintain
clearance for your brakes fully activated. Check it and also make sure
your
feet can get behind the pedals when that far back.
>I am currently fitting the rudder pedals to my 6A (overhead pedals). I
am
>tall (6ft 5, most of it leg) so would like to maximise leg room
available.
>In the plans Van calls out for the bearing block to be 4" from the
fire wall
>"variable according to pilot height". He does not specify the minimum
>distance but clearly at some point the pedals or associated brake
>paraphenalia will start to foul the firewall. Does anyone have a feel
for
>this minimum distance or, alternatively does anyone with a finished
>aeroplane with the blocks in the standard location know how much
clearance
>from the firewall they have at full pedal deflection?
>
>On a related matter, it has been suggested to me that I raise the
blocks 1"
>to avoid inadvertantly activating the brakes during taxiing. Does
anyone
>have experience with this modification?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Leo
>
>leo(at)icn.su.oz.au
>
>
>
Don Meehan
WSU Cooperative Extension
Island County
Coupeville, WA 98239-5000
206-679-7327
meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: firewall insulation |
>Does anyone have a suggestion for insulating the firewall and front
>floor for sound? I'm looking for a good product for this purpose.
>
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 #3933
>Albuquerque
>
>
Dan:
For floor insulation I used a closed cell foam product from Sruce &
Specalty. I then put a metal floor on top of it with screws so the area could
be checked later.
On the firewall I used a open cell, metallized (alum on mylar) foam that
had an adheasive on it. This was availaable from J.C. Whitney. Iused the same
material on the sidwalls, then covered it with the apolstery.
Hope this helps....
Fred Stucklen N925RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Reamers and Bold Sizes (fwd) |
One method is to get a 'drill guage'. These are $10.00 from Avery.
They have all the Number drill holes (# 30, #40,...etc.) and you
can simply slip a bolt in the hole to see what the best fit is.
It also comes in handy to double check a drill bit diameter befor
you use it as some of the bits are hard to read the size and after
they all get mixed up it can be a problem.
Avery also has a number of the common reamers in stock.
In general, you don't need to worry about reaming holes in a RV.
The critical holes to ream in the spar are already reamed.
The only other place to ream may be the rear spar attach bolt
hole. I just used a close tolerance bolt in it.
The main gear and tail wheel bolts could also be reamed but I did
not find it necessary. The main gear comes predrilled now also.
The Avery catalog also has a full page of the wire guage sizes
and their decimal equivalents. Their number is 1-800-652-8379.
Herman
> From root Sun Oct 22 12:28:07 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Message-Id: <199510221554.IAA17808(at)ix4.ix.netcom.com>
> From: ix.netcom.com!bcos(at)matronics.com (William Costello )
> Subject: RV-List: Reamers and Bold Sizes
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Can anyone give me or tell me where to find a small chart of:
>
> Common bolt sizes used in the RV-6, with associated drill sizes
> for for "pre-drilling" the hole, and the reamer size to bring it
> up to size. Then, if the correct hole is accidentally enlarged,
> the next higher drill size, if required, and the reamer size and
> bolt size that you would step up to.
>
> And if you can make sense of this you are a crpytologist!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Costello
> RV-6
> bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
>
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
Subject: RV-List: Two Wing Jig
I would recommend separate center posts. I found myself reaching into
the wing a lot through the lightening holes. The distance between
should be enough for you to squat or sit between them.
Ross Mickey
6-A Fuse
---- Begin Forwarded Message
I'm currently laying out my workshop, including lighting and such like,
and I
have a long, relatively narrow space where I believe that I could jig
up two
wings, end-to-end, and build them both at once. My question to the
list is
whether or not the centre post can be shared, or is it better to have
two
centre posts, one for each wing, and separate these posts by some sort
distance. If the latter is the case, what would be the minimum
practical
distance between the two centre posts?
Any of you that are currently
working on your wings (aren't we all?), I'd appreciate a little advice!
Thanx...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
>Hi Fred:
>Thanks for the offer. I will certainly take you up on your offer. What
kind
>of RV do you have (3,4,6,6A)? Mine is a 6A with a wood prop (Warnke) and a
>O320E2A (150hp). I hope to start it up for the first time sometime in
>November.
>Probably taxi/flight test it in December. Thanks again.
>
> Gary B
Gary, Have a -6A with just about 600 Hrs in two years. Have a 160HP O320-D1A
with the metal sensinich prop. The prop is the heaviest pitch I could get.
Climp suffers a little as a result of the heavy pitch, put cruise is what I
wanted. When you can still climb out at over 500 FPM with two 220lbs bodies,
full fuel, (and a bit of frost on the wings) I don't think that's too
bad......
Let me know when you want to go for a ride. Can't do it for the next three
weeks as I'll be out of town on business, but anytime after that.
Daytime phone is 1-800-242-7276 ext 2945.....
Fred Stucklen N925RV (That's 'nine to five RV!!!'")
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Reamers and Bold Sizes |
Bill
Vans sells a samll book entiltled the Standard Aircraft Handbook,
for about $9.00, the cheapest price I've seen, it covers all of the
questions you are asking and more. This is a great reference book for
anyone building, maintaining or restoring an aircraft. It also has
torque tables, drill and bolt guide, wire gauges, plumbing etc. I highly
recommend it.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Sun, 22 Oct 1995, William Costello wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Can anyone give me or tell me where to find a small chart of:
>
> Common bolt sizes used in the RV-6, with associated drill sizes
> for for "pre-drilling" the hole, and the reamer size to bring it
> up to size. Then, if the correct hole is accidentally enlarged,
> the next higher drill size, if required, and the reamer size and
> bolt size that you would step up to.
>
> And if you can make sense of this you are a crpytologist!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Costello
> RV-6
> bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List:Flush Oil Cover Latch (fwd) |
You don't buy these. You just make it.
They simply put a pair of the hinges on it so the hing pins are
on the inside of the cowl. You then route the hing pins to the
front air intake and glass some form of a guide to guide the pin
to the hinges.
I was going to to this and then blew it off as too much hassel
and went with Van's KISS approach.
Herman
> From root Sat Oct 21 19:50:49 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> From: aol.com!Shelby1138(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 19:51:05 -0400
> Message-Id: <951021195105_50687580(at)emout06.mail.aol.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List:Flush Oil Cover Latch
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> A friend of mine here in Nashville is looking for a source of the flush oil
> access cover latches he has seen on some RVs. Anyone knowing where he might
> find one can call on his toll free number or E-mail me.
>
> David Hudgins
> 1-800-883-5555
>
> Thanks in advance
> Shelby Smith
> Skinning wings in Nashville
> RV6A
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Wiring, Plumbing, etc. |
>Does anyone have a drawing showing locations for controls, wires, fuel lines,
>etc. in the RV6 firewall? Also for the instrument panel. A builder who is
>not on the list asked me to inquire. Of course, thats part of the fun to
>make your own design, but he would like to have a starting place.
>
>Jim Stugart RV6/6A
>DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Tony Bingelis has published drawings for his firewalls (both his -6
and his -6A). The -6 version is in March 1990 Sport Aviation, and the -6A
version is in his new "About Engines" book.
I too would like peoples opinions about the layout suggested in
these diagrams, since it seems to be that it would be much easier to drill
the firewall holes, and attach the required nutplates, etc. _before_ the
motor mount is attached and the engine hung.
... awaiting comments .. Gil Alexander, RV6A
PS. I will send a copy of this article for a SASE if anyone can't get back
copies. Perhaps it would be worth John Hovan scanning it for his RV home
page??
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Q: firewall insulation |
>
>>Does anyone have a suggestion for insulating the firewall and front
>>floor for sound? I'm looking for a good product for this purpose.
>>
>>Dan Boudro
>>RV-4 #3933
>>Albuquerque
>>
>>
>
>Dan:
> For floor insulation I used a closed cell foam product from Sruce &
>Specalty. I then put a metal floor on top of it with screws so the area could
>be checked later.
> On the firewall I used a open cell, metallized (alum on mylar) foam that
>had an adheasive on it. This was availaable from J.C. Whitney. Iused the same
>material on the sidwalls, then covered it with the apolstery.
> Hope this helps....
>
> Fred Stucklen N925RV
>
Fred ... what thicknesses did use use at each location?? ... Gil Alexander
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List:Flush Oil Cover Latch -Reply |
Earlier on the list someone metioned that
Skystar (sp?) has one available for the
KitFox that is light and simple. That
message gave the part and phone number.
>>> 10/21/95 05:51pm
>>>
A friend of mine here in Nashville is
looking for a source of the flush oil access
cover latches he has seen on some RVs.
Anyone knowing where he might find one can
call on his toll free number or E-mail me.
David Hudgins
1-800-883-5555
Thanks in advance
Shelby Smith
Skinning wings in Nashville
RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Justice's instructions -Reply |
If Frank doesn't mind it would seem that any
body with Word could save the file as a dos
text file.
>>> Doug Weiler
10/20/95 05:32pm >>>
To Frank Justice and/or Fellow Listers:
I have had several local requests for
Frank's instructions which I recommend
highly. However, since we all seem to have
such varying computer systems, are
Frank's instructions available in plain old
ASCII text format)? This would make
conversion and printed pretty
straightforward.
Thanks,
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing,
doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
On Sun, 22 Oct 1995 DerFlieger(at)aol.com wrote:
> It will be interesting to see where the
> c.g. falls when I complete my 6 to 6A conversion.
I don't want to open the old 6 vs 6A arguement again, but I was curious
what your reasons are for doing the conversion. It would seem like a lot
of work, expense and downtime, so I assume you must really dislike the
taildragger.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Brown <jmbrown(at)aimnet.com> |
| Subject: | Another Primer (Vir VariPrim) Question |
Ok, from the sound of it I won't need to clean off
the zinv chromated parts and re-spray wioth Vari-Prime
The big w question is???
Do I need to Alodine after O I etch the surface?
Or can I just clean scuff, etch and shoot with VariPrime?
Thanks in advance.,.
PS: Where is Franl's builders instructions (FTP please)
Sorry for the type-O's my backspace is broke! :(
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Carol R. de Solla" <de_solla_carol(at)jpmorgan.com> |
| Subject: | Re: E-Mail Addresses |
I too cannot get the senders name. I use Lotus Notes. Anyone any ideas?
Carol de Solla/David Coleman RV6 (left elevator)
de_solla_carol(at)jpmorgan.com
From: RVLIST[UNIX.RVLIST] @ TRSSW
Subject: Re: RV-List: E-Mail Addresses
>--------------
>>>--------------
>>>Since Matt has changed the setup for the list to show rv-list(at)matronics.com
>>>as the sender of all messages, it is much harder to reply to an individual
>>>directly when the subject of the reply is not much interest to the listers.
>>> May I suggest that when you send a message to the list, that you add your
>>>E-Mail address as a separate line after your name. That way by copying that
>>>line to the scratch pad, it will be easier to reply directly to the real
>>>sender and not clutter up the list when the message is really just for one
>>>individual. Thanks
>>>
>>>Jim Cone
>>>jamescone(at)aol.com
>>>Working on finishing kit for RV-6A
>>>--------------
>>
>
>Matt,
>
>I'm using Eudora as my e-mail program and am having the same 'problem' as
>Jim. If anyone knows the trick to reconfigure Eudora to display the actual
>sender, please let me know.
>
>Monte King
>RV-6A
>
>--------------
Monte 'et all,
I just tried the latest version of Eudoro Pro (V2.1.1) with the messages from
the RV-List. In the "Who" field, appears the actual sender of each mail.
You might try getting the latest version of Eudora - 2.1.1 has a lot of nice
new features anyway. Among other other places, you might try anonymous ftp
to ftp.llnl.gov and look in the /eudora directory for the latest version.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Two Wing Jig |
>Terry, think of how far you will have to travel, (again and again and
>again) to walk around the wings if you don't leave any space between the
>ends. I'm getting tired of walking around one wing, let alone two. As
>always, whatever you need is on the other side of wing.
>
Also though no-one will believe this, I think there are small elven type
creatures whose job is to walk around behind you moving tools. After you've
walked around your wing two or three times muttering about "I just put the
Damn thing down, now where is it" and looking for something, you might also
belive. It's amazing how far you travel in search of tools when you have
something in a jig and have to walk around it.
I think they also walk about in the house moving remote controls and key
rings, but this is just my opinion.
Gotta go, time for my medication ;-)))
Dave
Sorry Guys, I tried to resist but just had to.. ;-)))
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List:Flush Oil Cover Latch (fwd) |
Oops. Ignor my response below. I thought you wanted the flush 'door'
but I see you just wanted the flush 'latch'.
Most of the folks like ACS, Wicks, etc. sell the flush latches
(I think they are called hatwell latches or some such thing).
Herman
> Content-Length: 1382
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> You don't buy these. You just make it.
> They simply put a pair of the hinges on it so the hing pins are
> on the inside of the cowl. You then route the hing pins to the
> front air intake and glass some form of a guide to guide the pin
> to the hinges.
> I was going to to this and then blew it off as too much hassel
> and went with Van's KISS approach.
> Herman
>
> > From root Sat Oct 21 19:50:49 1995
> > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> > From: aol.com!Shelby1138(at)matronics.com
> > Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 19:51:05 -0400
> > Message-Id: <951021195105_50687580(at)emout06.mail.aol.com>
> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV-List:Flush Oil Cover Latch
> > Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> > Precedence: junk
> > Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> >
> > A friend of mine here in Nashville is looking for a source of the flush oil
> > access cover latches he has seen on some RVs. Anyone knowing where he might
> > find one can call on his toll free number or E-mail me.
> >
> > David Hudgins
> > 1-800-883-5555
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > Shelby Smith
> > Skinning wings in Nashville
> > RV6A
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
> own and are independent of my employer.
>
> Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
> mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | postmaster(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Report-Version: 2
>To: ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
| Subject: | SMTP mail failed |
---------- diagnosis ----------
SMTP diagnosis, WWIS Version 3.07 :
Not-Delivered-To: ccsdsmtp!jclark@ccsdsmtp
Due to: Transfer Failure
(Error in message or message format.)
(Possibly a bad destination address, please verify).
--------- unsent mail ---------
From: John Brown <aimnet.com!jmbrown(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RV-List: Another Primer (Vir VariPrim) Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:32:27 -0700 (PDT)
Ok, from the sound of it I won't need to clean off
the zinv chromated parts and re-spray wioth Vari-Prime
The big w question is???
Do I need to Alodine after O I etch the surface?
Or can I just clean scuff, etch and shoot with VariPrime?
Thanks in advance.,.
PS: Where is Franl's builders instructions (FTP please)
Sorry for the type-O's my backspace is broke! :(
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
October 11, 1995 - October 23, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-as