RV-Archive.digest.vol-at
October 23, 1995 - November 04, 1995
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
Another suggestion on wing jigs. Secure your main spar such that the
leading edge will be slightly over your head. The few times you need
to be level with the leading edge can be accomidated with a stool. You
will be thankful to have lots of room under your rear spar for fitting
alierons and elevators etc.
Ross Mickey
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Subject: RV-List: Two Wing Jig
I'm currently laying out my workshop, including lighting and such like,
and I
have a long, relatively narrow space where I believe that I could jig
up two
wings, end-to-end, and build them both at once. My question to the
list is
whether or not the centre post can be shared, or is it better to have
two
centre posts, one for each wing, and separate these posts by some sort
distance. If the latter is the case, what would be the minimum
practical
distance between the two centre posts?
Any of you that are currently
working on your wings (aren't we all?), I'd appreciate a little advice!
Thanx...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
FRED,
IMPORTANT
Plesae tell us you were joking about the "little bit of frost on the wing"
John
Lost a lot of friends that way.
>wanted. When you can still climb out at over 500 FPM with two 220lbs bodies,
>full fuel, (and a bit of frost on the wings) I don't think that's too
>bad......
> Let me know when you want to go for a ride. Can't do it for the next three
>weeks as I'll be out of town on business, but anytime after that.
> Daytime phone is 1-800-242-7276 ext 2945.....
>
> Fred Stucklen N925RV (That's 'nine to five RV!!!'")
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedal placement |
>A couple of questions on brake pedal location.
>
I just finished placing the brakes, and tried to get maximum length. I fitted
the box for the oil filter and governor, and this limited the forward position
of the brakes. I like the idea of raising the pedals a little, as they are
bolted, the position can be changed later.
Could I ask the group again about using fibre nuts on control parts. I note on
the plans, at the base of the control column, all the bolts end withan "A",
which means to me they are not drilled, and therefore could not take nuts and
cotter pins ? Or am I missing something ?
John
About to cut big holes in the dash board !
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wing skinning questions |
Concerning the overhang of the wing skin at the outermost rib:
Upon the advice of several local builders I specified that the overhang
of the wing skins at the outermost rib should be 5/8" rather than 1/2".
This allows more room for making the dimple that would be needed if you
are using #8 screws to attach the wingtips. The way to get the extra
overhang is to move the outer ribs in by 1/8" and leave everything else
the same.
I did not do this myself, having heard about it later. I am considering
reverting to the 1/2" dimension in my instructions since this has been a
cause for confusion, you cannot do it with the prepunched skins, and if
you use rivets or #6 screws to hold on the tips the dimple should not
reach the edge of the skin anyway.
Sometimes you just can't win.
By the way, I have been on vacation for two weeks and had to erase a lot
of rv-list mail without reading it. If you sent me a question that way
please resend it by mailing direct to me so I will be sure to read it.
FKJ
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Frost on wing |
>FRED,
>
>IMPORTANT
>
>Plesae tell us you were joking about the "little bit of frost on the wing"
>
>John
>Lost a lot of friends that way.
>
It probably wasn't more than a couple of inches.
Just kidding. Sorry for my rotten sense of humor. :)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
>The problem with drilling all the holes and then backdrilling the skins is
>that you run the risk of enlarging the existing holes. This is especially true
>if the holes are countersunk first since the hole will have less material
>thickness at the hole. The other negative factor would be that there is less
>material to guide the drill bit to keep the holes in line. The drill bit may
>be able to tilt a little and as a result, the holes in the outer skins will
>not align with the inner skin after dimpling.
I agree with everything you said, but would like to expand on one point. If
you predrill the holes, do it with a smaller bit so when you come back to
drill through the skin, it is a first drill at the proper size for both pieces.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal |
I building an RV-6 and it is Proseal time. Two Questions:
1. I will only build one inverted tank, which side would be better?
2. How do you mix proseal in the right proportions, and does it matter.
The directions state mix at a ratio of 100 to 1? Or by weight, what do
you use to measure the appropriate amounts if all you want is about 1.5
ozs of proseal? I don't think I have a measurement device that can
measure the accelerator component.
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: strobes install.... |
one power supply will work just fine, run your wires without any splices, and
ground only the end of the wire at the power supply.
...george
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | RV-List Pro-Seal |
I have finished both tanks and did not have an accurate enough scale
to weigh the Pro-Seal. I use small graduated plastic cups ( for the
main part) and syringes for the accelerator ( measured by volume).
The cups and syringes are available from custom fishing rod component
suppliers and are manufactured by Flex-Coat. If you are in coastal
area of the country they should be readily available. I live on Long
Island and most tackle shops stock these. The syringes by Flex-Coat
can only be used once ( the accelerator will ruin the rubber plunger
after the first use), so get a bunch.
-Scott (N506RV - Reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jeffrey Hall <jhall(at)fortnet.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Building time |
I've also been to a "wing-frost induced" funeral. Oh,
please-please-please don't do this at home!!!
Jeff Hall RV4 (wings)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
>>The problem with drilling all the holes and then backdrilling the skins is
>>that you run the risk of enlarging the existing holes. This is especially true
>>if the holes are countersunk first since the hole will have less material
>>thickness at the hole. The other negative factor would be that there is less
>>material to guide the drill bit to keep the holes in line. The drill bit may
>>be able to tilt a little and as a result, the holes in the outer skins will
>>not align with the inner skin after dimpling.
>
>I agree with everything you said, but would like to expand on one point. If
>you predrill the holes, do it with a smaller bit so when you come back to
>drill through the skin, it is a first drill at the proper size for both pieces.
All good point but I differ in my opinion. First, if you drill with a
smaller drill you will be challenged to countersink into the longeron.
Second, the longeron is .125 and that is plenty to guide the drill bit.
Remember the Ormdorf video where George effectively back drills most all of
the skins through the ribs and bulkheads.
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
( Fuselage - RV6A - soon to be on to Finish Kit.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Another Primer (Vir VariPrim) Question |
The procedure we use is to clean the parts with laquer thinner or
Coleman lantern fluid and then spray a light coat of Vari-Prime. Then the
parts are ready for assembly.
Becki Orndorff
>Ok, from the sound of it I won't need to clean off
>the zinv chromated parts and re-spray wioth Vari-Prime
>
>The big w question is???
>
>Do I need to Alodine after O I etch the surface?
>Or can I just clean scuff, etch and shoot with VariPrime?
>
>Thanks in advance.,.
>
>PS: Where is Franl's builders instructions (FTP please)
>
>Sorry for the type-O's my backspace is broke! :(
>-------sig cut here-------
>jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
>jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
>Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal -Reply |
Most people put the flop tube in the left
tank I think. I chose to put it in the
right. My rational is that you will most
likely be draining fuel first from the left
tank to lighten that side of the airplane,
assuming you fly from the left seat. So I I
also assumed the right tank will most often
have the most fuel in it which is what I
guessed I want if I am upside down.
Frank gives directions for making a balance
beam in is instructions. It is similar to
what Rutan diagrams for mixing epoxy. I used
this however I found that the pans to hang
on it cause a huge imbalance so I had to
counter balance the pan on the long end of
the beam with a short treaded rod and some
nuts to act as fine adjust.
>>> Robert Busick
10/23/95 05:32pm >>>
I building an RV-6 and it is Proseal
time. Two Questions:
1. I will only build one inverted tank,
which side would be better?
2. How do you mix proseal in the right
proportions, and does it matter. The
directions state mix at a ratio of 100 to 1?
Or by weight, what do you use to measure
the appropriate amounts if all you want is
about 1.5 ozs of proseal? I don't think I
have a measurement device that can measure
the accelerator component.
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-8 Construction Video |
To Y'all,
George and I will be doing a series of videos on the RV-8 just as soon
as we can get our hands on a kit!
Becki Orndorff
>Beckie,
>
>Do you and George plan to do a series of videos on the RV-8 ?? I think this
>would be a great idea.
>
>Dick Slavens Napa, CA
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Two Wing Jig |
>
> Also though no-one will believe this, I think there are small elven type
> creatures whose job is to walk around behind you moving tools. After you've
> walked around your wing two or three times muttering about "I just put the
> Damn thing down, now where is it" > Dave
>
> Sorry Guys, I tried to resist but just had to.. ;-)))
>
>
Yep. I've got 'em in my shop too. What really makes me mad is when
they put the missing item back in plain sight after 20-30 minutes of
searching. Grrrrr!
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rbibb(at)fore.com (Richard Bibb) |
| Subject: | Re: Two Wing Jig |
>Also though no-one will believe this, I think there are small elven type
>creatures whose job is to walk around behind you moving tools. After you've
>walked around your wing two or three times muttering about "I just put the
>Damn thing down, now where is it" and looking for something, you might also
>belive. It's amazing how far you travel in search of tools when you have
>something in a jig and have to walk around it.
>
If I had 30 seconds for every minute I spent looking for tools "I just had
in my hand" I would have finished my RV in about 6 months....
Richard E. Bibb TEL: (301) 571-2507
DOD Program Manager PAGE: (800) 719-1246
FORE Systems ALT TEL: (703) 478-9603
6905 Rockledge Drive FAX: (301) 564-4408
Suite 800
Bethesda, MD 20817 rbibb(at)fore.com
Check out our WEB page: http://www.fore.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
writes:
>
>(I don't want to start a 6 / 6A debate I feel that I understand the
>advantages to each but I would like to hear your and anyone else's personal
>reasons that have help to make the switch/decision.)
>
>
I had to replace the gear etc. in my 6 due to an accident, I never would
have switched if that had not happened. I loved my taildragger and consider
it amongst the easiest to handle on the ground. However, if I were building
a new one I would seriously consider a 6A. Follows are my reasons for my
switch to 6A
1. Selling price $10k or more higher.
2. Van's comment, "Flying all day, tired, high xwind, ice, snow
3. My wife will consent to at least drive it around on the ground.
4. Although the 6 is a pussycat, I have flown 6As many times and a "no
squeek" landing is almost always possible.
Since I've made my conversion I can tell you that compared to the 6, the
logistics of wings on/ wings off on a 6A is a pain in the @#!. On the 6 you
can put them on/ take them off any time you want and still roll it around.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal |
> 2. How do you mix proseal in the right proportions, and does it matter.
> The directions state mix at a ratio of 100 to 1? Or by weight, what do
> you use to measure the appropriate amounts if all you want is about 1.5
> ozs of proseal? I don't think I have a measurement device that can
> measure the accelerator component.
>
> Thanks
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
I used a homemade 10 to 1 scale. It's very accurate and easy to make.
I used a Oak stick and welding rod to make the main part of the ballance.
The pivot is a drill rod and I use two small aluminum disks as pans for the
sticky stuff. You can use angle aluminum as a support for the drill rod.
You will have to add some ballast to the short end to get the thing to
stay level when no proseal is on the disks. I used another drill rod
mounted in the verticle position so I could add washers one by one to
complete the ballancing process. I had to gring most of the last washer
away to complet the ballancing. I used a reloading scale to check the
accuracy and forund it to be well within 1 Grn. (1/7000 pound). This is
plenty accurate.
Chris
|<--1'-->|<----------------10"-------------------------->|
------------------------------------------------------------
| O O O |
-|--------------------------------------------------------|-
| ^ |
| | |
| ------- Pivot |
| |
| |
--------- <---Big blob Here Little blob here--> ---------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Empennage Questions |
I have a cople of questions for the experienced builders out there.
First, In building the RV4 Horizontal stab rear spar, (before I got a decent
hand squeezer
from Avery), I was riveting the spar flanges with the rivet gun, which
slipped and left
three half circle-shaped scars in the spar web. They didn't perforate the
metal but left
it a little dented. Is this unsafe? How do I know if they're too deep? Would
there be a way
to repair this?
Second, two of the forward horiz stab ribs have a notch cut in the flange
about 1.5 inches
back from the tip. For rivet spacing, have people put two rivets into that
section of the rib,
or only one? Two would be stronger but I know from helping a friend of mine
rivet his that
since you're so close to the leading edge it's nearly impossible to get a
bucking bar up in
there. Is one enough?
Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
Thanks for your help,
Brad Hamlin
RV4 Empennage kit
Walpole, MA
bhamlin1(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal |
I used 1/4 teaspoon of accelerator to 1 tablespoon of white stuff.
Worked good
Ross Mickey
Fuse 6-A
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Subject: RV-List: Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal
I building an RV-6 and it is Proseal time. Two Questions:
1. I will only build one inverted tank, which side would be better?
2. How do you mix proseal in the right proportions, and does it
matter.
The directions state mix at a ratio of 100 to 1? Or by weight, what do
you use to measure the appropriate amounts if all you want is about 1.5
ozs of proseal? I don't think I have a measurement device that can
measure the accelerator component.
Thanks
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Anyone using an IvoProp on an RV? |
A friend with a flying RV6,TX168, asked me to post this request on the RV
List. He is considering changing from a wood prop to an IvoProp, Magnum
model, on his RV6 with an 0320. Has anyone on the list had any experience
with any IvoProps?
Thanks, Tom
TommyLewis(at)AOL.COM
RV6a project, installing ailerons on wings
N967RV reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone using an IvoProp on an RV? |
The guy in the hanger near ours tried a three bladed Ivo for awhile on
his RV4, but got scared of all the reported problems and took it off before
he became a statistic. I think it might have developed some cracks. He now
has a metal Sensenich that he is very happy with.
Becki Orndorff
>A friend with a flying RV6,TX168, asked me to post this request on the RV
>List. He is considering changing from a wood prop to an IvoProp, Magnum
>model, on his RV6 with an 0320. Has anyone on the list had any experience
>with any IvoProps?
>
>Thanks, Tom
>TommyLewis(at)AOL.COM
>RV6a project, installing ailerons on wings
>N967RV reserved
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal |
As a retired dentist I'll tell you how I use Proseal. The important thing
as with any polysulifed compound (we used to use it to take impressions when
accuracy was the driving motive) is to mix it
thoroughly i.e. uniform color. When I have a small area I use more
accelerator (the black stuff), the material is very black. When I need
alot of time e.g. doing the ribs on a tank I use alot less accelerator,
the material is grey, this gives me alot of time depending on the
ambient temp. I've used the same mix for 3 hours but it took several days
to set. From my materials class in dental school I know if it is mixed
thoroughly it WILL set. Frankly, I don't understand all the fuss about
Proseal, its a good material and easy to work with, applies easily and
works well. If you take the time to keep your tools clean, i.e. wipe off
excess from bucking bars, rivet sets, bench, hair etc. there isn't really
much mess at all.
I've done my fourth tank now and am very happy with it!
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > 2. How do you mix proseal in the right proportions, and does it matter.
> > The directions state mix at a ratio of 100 to 1? Or by weight, what do
> > you use to measure the appropriate amounts if all you want is about 1.5
> > ozs of proseal? I don't think I have a measurement device that can
> > measure the accelerator component.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bob Busick
> > RV-6
> >
>
> I used a homemade 10 to 1 scale. It's very accurate and easy to make.
> I used a Oak stick and welding rod to make the main part of the ballance.
> The pivot is a drill rod and I use two small aluminum disks as pans for the
> sticky stuff. You can use angle aluminum as a support for the drill rod.
> You will have to add some ballast to the short end to get the thing to
> stay level when no proseal is on the disks. I used another drill rod
> mounted in the verticle position so I could add washers one by one to
> complete the ballancing process. I had to gring most of the last washer
> away to complet the ballancing. I used a reloading scale to check the
> accuracy and forund it to be well within 1 Grn. (1/7000 pound). This is
> plenty accurate.
>
> Chris
>
>
> |<--1'-->|<----------------10"-------------------------->|
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> | O O O |
> -|--------------------------------------------------------|-
> | ^ |
> | | |
> | ------- Pivot |
> | |
> | |
> --------- <---Big blob Here Little blob here--> ---------
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Empennage Questions |
Well, Thank heaven for bondo! Patch the thing and get on with it!
I put one rivet in the area your talking about. KISS.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933 just started putting stuff in the fuselage
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995 aol.com!BHamlin1(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I have a cople of questions for the experienced builders out there.
>
> First, In building the RV4 Horizontal stab rear spar, (before I got a decent
> hand squeezer
> from Avery), I was riveting the spar flanges with the rivet gun, which
> slipped and left
> three half circle-shaped scars in the spar web. They didn't perforate the
> metal but left
> it a little dented. Is this unsafe? How do I know if they're too deep? Would
> there be a way
> to repair this?
>
> Second, two of the forward horiz stab ribs have a notch cut in the flange
> about 1.5 inches
> back from the tip. For rivet spacing, have people put two rivets into that
> section of the rib,
> or only one? Two would be stronger but I know from helping a friend of mine
> rivet his that
> since you're so close to the leading edge it's nearly impossible to get a
> bucking bar up in
> there. Is one enough?
>
> Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Brad Hamlin
> RV4 Empennage kit
> Walpole, MA
> bhamlin1(at)aol.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
Brad Hamlin....
To rivet those flange strips, try using your rivet gun with the Avery
Arbor ( the big C shaped tool ). There are about 100 rivets in that
rear spar and the Avery tool will allow you to do the whole job in about
3 hours with no bad rivets.
To repair your dings. Try using a small Scotchbrite wheel in a die grinder.
Can you still take the flange strips out or are they already riveted in?
If you can still take them out, mike them in the area of your polishing and
you may be amazed to find that there is very little if any difference in
thickness. Also, call Van and ask for the official answer.
Remember, spars are critical.
Good luck
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: G alarm thoughts |
>
>I am currently using the Analog Devices (ADXL50JH) 0-50g
>accelerometer in my Rv6a. I designed a multifunctional unit
>using a 20 character by 2 line LCD display, a Signetics
>microcontroller, a real time clock and two serial Analog to
>digital converters. My unit has different modes, One of which
>is the accelerometer, it has a real time display and it
>records a displays min and max g's, it resolution is 1/10 of
>a g and has a range of +/- 0-10 g's. It has a voltage mode,
>sensing battery voltage. It has a temperature mode sensing
>inside & outside temperatures displaying them in C or F. It
>has an elapse timer that can be reset at any time. This unit
>could be used for egt and cht with additional circuitry.
>
>Terry
>Terry Dyer
Terry:
Any chance of getting a copy of your schmatic. I'd like to see what I can do
for my RV-6a.
Fred Stucklen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Another Primer (Vir VariPrim) Question (fwd) |
I just talked to the Dupont office in Dallas today regarding Imron, etc.
I asked about Variprime and he said that because it was a self-etching
primer that you do not need to etch or alodine.
This agrees with what Becki says below.
You can always etch and or alodine if you like but it is probably not
worth the time for the interior skins.
The acid etch does ensure a nice clean skin so I plan to do it on
the exterior.
Herman
>
> The procedure we use is to clean the parts with laquer thinner or
> Coleman lantern fluid and then spray a light coat of Vari-Prime. Then the
> parts are ready for assembly.
> Becki Orndorff
>
> >Ok, from the sound of it I won't need to clean off
> >the zinv chromated parts and re-spray wioth Vari-Prime
> >
> >The big w question is???
> >
> >Do I need to Alodine after O I etch the surface?
> >Or can I just clean scuff, etch and shoot with VariPrime?
> >
> >Thanks in advance.,.
> >
> >PS: Where is Franl's builders instructions (FTP please)
> >
> >Sorry for the type-O's my backspace is broke! :(
> >-------sig cut here-------
> >jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
> >jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
> >Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> Becki Orndorff
> NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Reamers and Bold Sizes (fwd) |
> Avery also has a number of the common reamers in stock.
> In general, you don't need to worry about reaming holes in a RV.
> The critical holes to ream in the spar are already reamed.
> The only other place to ream may be the rear spar attach bolt
> hole. I just used a close tolerance bolt in it.
> The main gear and tail wheel bolts could also be reamed but I did
> not find it necessary. The main gear comes predrilled now also.
>
>
Just a comment here. One other place you may want to consider reaming is the
1/4" bolthole in the bushing at the base of each control stick. That slight
bit of slack that results from a standard 1/4" drill drive me nuts during
long cross country trips on a perfectly smooth day! And that's the only kind
of weather you'll notice that bit of play.
Fred Stucklen N925RV RV6A 600Hrs+ in two Years!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Q: firewall insulation |
>>Dan:
>> For floor insulation I used a closed cell foam product from Sruce &
>>Specalty. I then put a metal floor on top of it with screws so the area
>could
>>be checked later.
>> On the firewall I used a open cell, metallized (alum on mylar) foam that
>>had an adheasive on it. This was availaable from J.C. Whitney. Iused the
>same
>>material on the sidwalls, then covered it with the apolstery.
>> Hope this helps....
>>
>> Fred Stucklen N925RV
>
>Fred ... what thicknesses did use use at each location?? ... Gil Alexander
Gil:
I used the 1/4" mylar faced foam on the side walls and firewall. The closed
cell foam on the floor was also 1/4", but I doubled it up for 1/2" total. I
borrowd a dB meter and took some sound level measurements and found the
cockpit to be about the same as a C172: about 100dB in Climb and Cruise,
quieter on a 80mph landing approach.
Hope that helps.....
Fred Stucklen WSTUCKLEN(at)AOL.COM N925RV RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
Just a comment on drilling skins in general. I used a sheet of mylar drafting
material to transferr all hole locations marked on the frame to be skinned,
to the actual skin. Once the mylar was marked, I placed it over the skin and
drilled 1/16" holes right through the mylar. The skin is then placed into
position, and drilled in assembly with the ribs/bulkheads with a #41 bit. I
used this technique for all the skins on my RV-6A. The mylar for each skin is
saved in case a repair/replacement has to be made in the distant future.
Fred Stucklen WSTUCKLEN(at)AOL.COM N925RV RV-6A 600+Hrs in 2 Yrs.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Empennage Questions (fwd) |
This is one of the nice advantages of the squeezer. It will not bounce
off and marr the work. However, the pneumatic squeezer can become a
hole punch if not used with care when dimpling with it. Also watch those
fingers.
I would expect the smilies not to be a major problem as they should be
fairly rounded due to the shape of the cup used for AN470 rivets.
It should therefore be radiused already. You may want to clean it up
a little with sand paper. If it is close to the edge, then ensure it
is radiused out with a file if needed.
The HS spar appears to be beefy enough so as not to be concerned with
a little builder variation. If unsure, check with Van's.
Regarding the ribs, do not be too concerned with the rib flange as
only about the first 1/8 inch of the flange is needed to give the
strength. I read somewhere what the distance needs to be based on
the thickness of the material and for .025 to .032 ribs you don't
need much of a flange. It is mainly there to provide a rivet area
and to have enough material on each side of the hole.
If there is a notch close to the tip I would stop drill it to ensure
it does not spread and deburr it. I would not use an extra rivet
close to the tip because as you note this area is already difficult
to rivet and the .032 skin with the sharp bend at the front is already
quite stiff.
The prefered method is to dimple whereever possible. It is stronger
and much more consistent than C/S. Always dimple the underlying structure
first. This way, if there is some place that you can not access to dimple,
then mark that hole on the skin and C/S that hole.
Herman
RV4 ready to paint.
> I have a cople of questions for the experienced builders out there.
>
> First, In building the RV4 Horizontal stab rear spar, (before I got a decent
> hand squeezer
> from Avery), I was riveting the spar flanges with the rivet gun, which
> slipped and left
> three half circle-shaped scars in the spar web. They didn't perforate the
> metal but left
> it a little dented. Is this unsafe? How do I know if they're too deep? Would
> there be a way
> to repair this?
>
> Second, two of the forward horiz stab ribs have a notch cut in the flange
> about 1.5 inches
> back from the tip. For rivet spacing, have people put two rivets into that
> section of the rib,
> or only one? Two would be stronger but I know from helping a friend of mine
> rivet his that
> since you're so close to the leading edge it's nearly impossible to get a
> bucking bar up in
> there. Is one enough?
>
> Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Brad Hamlin
> RV4 Empennage kit
> Walpole, MA
> bhamlin1(at)aol.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Marc LeFevre <marcl(at)hpbs2412.boi.hp.com> |
I haven't heard any more talk about the Confirmed Kill simulation.
I tried to get the files and couldn't. Did anyone out there
succeed? There were a few files available but not the ones in
the post about getting started.
Marc
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Another Primer (VariPrim) Question |
... However .... the DuPont document E-67002 (DuPont Imron - Aircraft
Finishes) that I got at Oshkosh says on page 7:-
"A special note: Over most substrates VariPrime is self-etching, but for
aircraft useage we reccommend both cleaning and conditioning {described as
acid-etch and alodine in other parts of the document .. Gil A.} the metal
surfaces to ensure maximum adhesion."
So Herman's comment about the exterior is right on!
.. Gil Alexander, RV6A ... just dropped $100+ at the Dupont dealer
this lunch time! The Imron Accelerator
is $60/qt., even though you only need
4 oz. per gall.!
> I just talked to the Dupont office in Dallas today regarding Imron, etc.
> I asked about Variprime and he said that because it was a self-etching
> primer that you do not need to etch or alodine.
> This agrees with what Becki says below.
> You can always etch and or alodine if you like but it is probably not
> worth the time for the interior skins.
> The acid etch does ensure a nice clean skin so I plan to do it on
> the exterior.
> Herman
>>
>> The procedure we use is to clean the parts with laquer thinner or
>> Coleman lantern fluid and then spray a light coat of Vari-Prime. Then the
>> parts are ready for assembly.
>> Becki Orndorff
>>
>> >Ok, from the sound of it I won't need to clean off
>> >the zinv chromated parts and re-spray wioth Vari-Prime
>> >
>> >The big w question is???
>> >
>> >Do I need to Alodine after O I etch the surface?
>> >Or can I just clean scuff, etch and shoot with VariPrime?
>> >
>> >Thanks in advance.,.
>> >
>> >PS: Where is Franl's builders instructions (FTP please)
>> >
>> >jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
>> >Building an RV-6 #23568
>> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> Becki Orndorff
>> NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | Empennage Questions |
Dimple the skins on the emp. Do not countersink unless you
absolutely have to. Countersinking removes material and is therefore
not as strong as dimpling.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
>
> Also though no-one will believe this, I think there are small elven type
> creatures whose job is to walk around behind you moving tools. After you've
> walked around your wing two or three times muttering about "I just put the
> Damn thing down, now where is it" > Dave
>
> Sorry Guys, I tried to resist but just had to.. ;-)))
>
>
> Yep. I've got 'em in my shop too. What really makes me mad is when
>they put the missing item back in plain sight after 20-30 minutes of
>searching. Grrrrr!
Mine are more mean. They hide it til the next day, then put it back in plain
site.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Another Primer (VariPrim) Question |
>... However .... the DuPont document E-67002 (DuPont Imron - Aircraft
>Finishes) that I got at Oshkosh says on page 7:-
>
>"A special note: Over most substrates VariPrime is self-etching, but for
>aircraft useage we reccommend both cleaning and conditioning {described as
>acid-etch and alodine in other parts of the document .. Gil A.} the metal
>surfaces to ensure maximum adhesion."
>
>> I just talked to the Dupont office in Dallas today regarding Imron, etc.
>> I asked about Variprime and he said that because it was a self-etching
>> primer that you do not need to etch or alodine.
>> This agrees with what Becki says below.
>> You can always etch and or alodine if you like but it is probably not
>> worth the time for the interior skins.
>> The acid etch does ensure a nice clean skin so I plan to do it on
>> the exterior.
>> Herman
Just to add a bit, I used to work painting and upholstry out at the local
airport. We used Imron and Endura poly paints. One thing I noticed was the
difterance a coat of primer and a good acid etch made to the life of the
paint. Some of the aircraft were used in very hard service so the paint
would only last a season or two at best.
If the aircraft was stripped degreased, acid etched, primed, then painted
the paint would not only look good, but survive longer. Later on We had done
a few
splash jobs and skipped the acid etch and skimped on primmer, these would
last only a short time and the paint would come off in big scabs. On the
other hand the paint done properly would suffer from mechanical damage
(stone chips,ice damage etc) but wouldn't come off.
Just to make things clear here, the "splash" jobs were still done according
to the paint systems used, but the extra steps weren't done. The thing is if
your want your paint to stay on and look good for years, spend the time to
do the extra prep, not just the basics. A few extra hours spent on these
steps will make the diff between doing this once or doing eveery few years.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Re: Empennage Questions |
Ah,
Smileys...... we've all got a few. In general they don't compromise
strength significantly due to deformation but.... If you have a sharp radius
at the bottom of them they can provide a stress concentrator and the start
of a crack. So, if the bottom of the ding isn't smooth sand it until it is.
The small loss of web flange thickness is not important if it doesn't run
all the way to the edge of the piece. The main damage is to pride.
Cheers,
Leo 6A Fuselage
>I have a cople of questions for the experienced builders out there.
>
>First, In building the RV4 Horizontal stab rear spar, (before I got a decent
>hand squeezer
>from Avery), I was riveting the spar flanges with the rivet gun, which
>slipped and left
>three half circle-shaped scars in the spar web. They didn't perforate the
>metal but left
>it a little dented. Is this unsafe? How do I know if they're too deep? Would
>there be a way
>to repair this?
>
>Second, two of the forward horiz stab ribs have a notch cut in the flange
>about 1.5 inches
>back from the tip. For rivet spacing, have people put two rivets into that
>section of the rib,
>or only one? Two would be stronger but I know from helping a friend of mine
>rivet his that
>since you're so close to the leading edge it's nearly impossible to get a
>bucking bar up in
>there. Is one enough?
>
>Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Brad Hamlin
>RV4 Empennage kit
>Walpole, MA
>bhamlin1(at)aol.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
You wrote:
>
>
>Just a comment on drilling skins in general. I used a sheet of mylar
drafting
>material to transferr all hole locations marked on the frame to be
skinned,
>to the actual skin. Once the mylar was marked, I placed it over the
skin and
>drilled 1/16" holes right through the mylar. The skin is then placed
into
>position, and drilled in assembly with the ribs/bulkheads with a #41
bit. I
>used this technique for all the skins on my RV-6A. The mylar for each
skin is
>saved in case a repair/replacement has to be made in the distant
future.
>
>Fred Stucklen WSTUCKLEN(at)AOL.COM N925RV RV-6A 600+Hrs in 2
Yrs.
>
>
>
Fred,
this sounds like a great idea, how did you reference the mylar to the
skin placement (overhang at traing edge) etc.?
Ed Cole
RV6a Emmpenage
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KDMA92A(at)prodigy.com (MR JOHN G LILE) |
Hello folks.
I received your address through the RV news Feb 95 issue. I also have been
seeing several plug this site on the Prodigy computer. I've been told you
people have a wealth of information to share. I'm interested in anything
you might provide, and I'm wondering also, is there anything I can do to
help this site out as well?
Any help you can provide would be the utmost appreciated. Thank you.
You can reach me at this Prodigy address.
Sincerely,
John Lile
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com |
| Subject: | Re: Two Wing Jig |
>> Also though no-one will believe this, I think there are small elven type
>> creatures whose job is to walk around behind you moving tools. After you've
>> walked around your wing two or three times muttering about "I just put the
>> Damn thing down, now where is it" > Dave
>>
>> Sorry Guys, I tried to resist but just had to.. ;-)))
Yes, but who are the little creatures that take whatever you drop and go
hide it in the last possible place it could have rolled? ....like bounce
off the bench stool under the scrap piece of aluminum roll across the tilted
table into a piece pipe that is exactly the same diameter as the item you
just dropped. (20 feet away from were you were standing)
Sometimes I feel like GPS might have another use in the future when you can
locate the parts/tools that you misplace or drop. (A moving map display of
your shop!)
hehe
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Another Primer (Vir VariPrim) Question |
>Before we all get too worried about primer, I have a 1966 Cherokee 180 , and
the interior was not primed at all. Inside the wing is still quite shiny, and
certianly not corroded. As far as I can tell it was not even primed where
metal meets metal, though I think it has been sprayed with ACF 50, as it has
the oily stain on the outside.
By the time my RV 6A is thirty years lod, I will be 90, so I don't think
corrosion will be my promary problem.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Light for Master Switch |
I read an article in the last year about a method of having a bright light
come on, if the master switch was left on, when the engine was not running. It
seems a good idea.
Could someone help me find it again , please ? John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Two Wing Jig |
>>> Also though no-one will believe this, I think there are small elven type
>>> creatures whose job is to walk around behind you moving tools. After you've
>>> walked around your wing two or three times muttering about "I just put the
>>> Damn thing down, now where is it" > Dave
>>>
>>> Sorry Guys, I tried to resist but just had to.. ;-)))
>
>Yes, but who are the little creatures that take whatever you drop and go
>hide it in the last possible place it could have rolled? ....like bounce
>off the bench stool under the scrap piece of aluminum roll across the tilted
>table into a piece pipe that is exactly the same diameter as the item you
>just dropped. (20 feet away from were you were standing)
I think its the same bunch, but they belong to a differant union ;-), thens
there the bunch who stuff the TV remote under the couch cushions...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Empennage Questions |
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995 BHamlin1(at)aol.com wrote:
> First, In building the RV4 Horizontal stab rear spar, (before I got a decent
> hand squeezer
> from Avery), I was riveting the spar flanges with the rivet gun, which
> slipped and left
> three half circle-shaped scars in the spar web.
I'm not an expert, but I'd say it's probably ok. Got any A&P friends?
If so, show it to them and ask. If the scars in the spar web are sharp,
then I'd probably drill a tiny hole at each end of the scar. This will
relieve the stresses and prevent a crack from forming later. Remember
that most of the load is going to be carried by the flange strips, not
the spar web.
> Second, two of the forward horiz stab ribs have a notch cut in the flange
> about 1.5 inches
> back from the tip. For rivet spacing, have people put two rivets into that
> section of the rib,
> or only one? Two would be stronger but I know from helping a friend of mine
> rivet his that
> since you're so close to the leading edge it's nearly impossible to get a
> bucking bar up in
> there. Is one enough?
In my opinion, yes. One is enough. You should probably be able to get
two in there on one side (top or bottom, whichever you rivet first) though.
> Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
dimple! Someone posted the mil specs here some time ago, and
it's clear that dimpling is significantly stronger.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
WIngs are almost done, I wrote the check
for the fuselage kit today
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
Anyone
Some time back someone posted a message about a elevator that had to much
slack in the skins so that it would cause the skins to change shape and the
airplane to pitch up or down (was this you Gil?) anyway if someone kept this
message could you e-mail me the solution.
My hanger mates RV-6 will reach a certain speed and then want to pitch down
the only thing we can see different than my -6 is that his elevator skins
seem to be a little looser, when you push on the skin with your finger there
is a lot of oil can effect.
When I say pitch down it is not anything dangerous it is just that you can
feel a tug on the stick and you will have to retrim. He has checked
everything and this is the only thing left that we can think of.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
In the empennage construction video showing the verticle stab there is
mention of installing grommets (sp?) and string in case you ever want to run
wire for lighting or antenna. Sounds like a good idea. Can someone give me
some guidance as to what size holes/grommets? Also, can any grommet be used
or do I need to be careful to avoid an adverse reaction to the primer etc.
Thanks in advance.
Dick Flunker
Rookie, but making progress
Rflunker(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
I think this was actually covered in an RVator. The problem was confirmed by
filling the offending structure with some sort of polyurethane foam. The fix
was to build a new part.
>Anyone
>
>Some time back someone posted a message about a elevator that had to much
>slack in the skins so that it would cause the skins to change shape and the
>airplane to pitch up or down (was this you Gil?) anyway if someone kept this
>message could you e-mail me the solution.
>
>My hanger mates RV-6 will reach a certain speed and then want to pitch down
>the only thing we can see different than my -6 is that his elevator skins
>seem to be a little looser, when you push on the skin with your finger there
>is a lot of oil can effect.
>
>When I say pitch down it is not anything dangerous it is just that you can
>feel a tug on the stick and you will have to retrim. He has checked
>everything and this is the only thing left that we can think of.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
You wrote:
>
>Anyone
>
>Some time back someone posted a message about a elevator that had to
much
>slack in the skins so that it would cause the skins to change shape
and the
>airplane to pitch up or down (was this you Gil?) anyway if someone
kept this
>message could you e-mail me the solution.
>
>My hanger mates RV-6 will reach a certain speed and then want to pitch
down
>the only thing we can see different than my -6 is that his elevator
skins
>seem to be a little looser, when you push on the skin with your finger
there
>is a lot of oil can effect.
>
>When I say pitch down it is not anything dangerous it is just that you
can
>feel a tug on the stick and you will have to retrim. He has checked
>everything and this is the only thing left that we can think of.
>
>Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
>
Hi Jerry,
I can't find the particular question and 'solution' yet, but I remember
they sprayed that foam that sets up solid after a while. I presume
they removed the elevator, cut a small hole in the rear spar between
the flange strips, and shot in the foam where the problem existed.
I think he stated or implied they would build a new horiz stab, but I
wonder if that is always necessary as long as trim tab and everything
is in working order.
Bill Costello
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com (Alex Munro) |
>I haven't heard any more talk about the Confirmed Kill simulation.
>I tried to get the files and couldn't. Did anyone out there
>succeed? There were a few files available but not the ones in
>the post about getting started.
>
>Marc
>
Nope. I had the same problem. I still play the hell out of Air Warrior though.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995 JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> >Was told the size as described in the -4 plans (1/4") is inadequate.
> >Something about it being too small to displace the air while loading
> >fuel.
>
> Remi
> If I was building my -6 over again I would make the vent holes at the apex at
> least .5 to .75" my tanks take a long time to fill the last few gallons.
Is vent hole size really the problem here? After all, look at the size of
the air vent on a plastic jerrycan. It's less than a 1/4" and yet the
jerrycan pours at an acceptable rate, IMHO.
Maybe the solution requires larger FUEL holes in the baffles.
Just my opinion.
So now I've vented but I'm still baffled! :)
Curt Reimer
RV-6
second fuel tank under construction
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone using an IvoProp on an RV? |
Not really sure, but I think there is some bad history of Ivoprops on higher
HP installations.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: firewall insulation |
Becki and I used a sound proof ing material from aircraft spruce that works
real well. It's in they catolog under sound proofing..george orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab |
Dick,
The grommets that we used were the same as supplied with the kit to run
the vent lines in the fuel tanks. They are plastic snap-in ones that take a
7/16 hole and have a 1/4 in. opening which is just right for coax or strobe
power wire. I believe they are available from Vans.
Keep the faith - it does get easier as you get experience. Happy building!
Becki Orndorff
>In the empennage construction video showing the verticle stab there is
>mention of installing grommets (sp?) and string in case you ever want to run
>wire for lighting or antenna. Sounds like a good idea. Can someone give me
>some guidance as to what size holes/grommets? Also, can any grommet be used
>or do I need to be careful to avoid an adverse reaction to the primer etc.
>
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Dick Flunker
>Rookie, but making progress
>Rflunker(at)aol.com
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Justice's instructions |
Text item:
>I have had several local requests for Frank's instructions which I recommend
>highly. However, since we all seem to have such varying computer systems, are
>Frank's instructions available in plain old ASCII text format)? This would
>make conversion and printed pretty straightforward.
Upon request I will send out a diskette in ASCII format or most any other. Since
I have to convert them manually each time so you get the latest, I will normally
only send out a few of the files rather than the whole thing.
FKJ
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: RV-List: Justice's instructions
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 18:32:07 -0500
From: Doug Weiler <swamp.mn.org!Doug.Weiler(at)matronics.com>
-4.1)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspeed over stress |
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Richard Chandler wrote:
> Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
> And does anyone know where I can get the dive siren from a Stuka. :-)
> (Why did they have those anyway?)
To inflict fear and panic on its victims. It also probably spooked any
nearby horses, and horses were quite widely used for pulling guns, etc
during early WWII.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Fueltank's air vent hole size |
>
> Just my opinion.
> So now I've vented but I'm still baffled! :)
>
> Curt Reimer
> RV-6
> second fuel tank under construction
>
I don't want to fuel the fire here, but, I,ve had my fill of this pun
stuff. Can we put a cap on it?
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab |
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995 RFlunker(at)aol.com wrote:
> In the empennage construction video showing the verticle stab there is
> mention of installing grommets (sp?) and string in case you ever want to run
> wire for lighting or antenna. Sounds like a good idea. Can someone give me
> some guidance as to what size holes/grommets? Also, can any grommet be used
> or do I need to be careful to avoid an adverse reaction to the primer etc.
Use Snap Bushings. Most aircraft supply houses sell them, including
Aircraft Spruce & Specialty. As for size, that depends upon what you
want to put up there. Snap Bushing come in sizes as small as 1/8-inch
I.D. However, both antenna feedline and strobe cables are much larger
than this. a 1/4-inch ID SNap Bushing would be fine forantenna
feedline. Ffr strobe cable,I'd probably use 3/8. (I have some of the
Belden cable that Whelen ships in its Installation Kit, so if you would
like me to measure it, just let me know.)
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
I think you saw this in the last issue of Van's RVator.
He described the problem and solution (filling it with the squirt it
foam).
>
> Some time back someone posted a message about a elevator that had to much
> slack in the skins so that it would cause the skins to change shape and the
> airplane to pitch up or down (was this you Gil?) anyway if someone kept this
> message could you e-mail me the solution.
>
> My hanger mates RV-6 will reach a certain speed and then want to pitch down
> the only thing we can see different than my -6 is that his elevator skins
> seem to be a little looser, when you push on the skin with your finger there
> is a lot of oil can effect.
>
> When I say pitch down it is not anything dangerous it is just that you can
> feel a tug on the stick and you will have to retrim. He has checked
> everything and this is the only thing left that we can think of.
>
> Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
>I haven't heard any more talk about the Confirmed Kill simulation.
>I tried to get the files and couldn't. Did anyone out there
>succeed? There were a few files available but not the ones in
>the post about getting started.
It figure right after spend the time to post a bunch a long message about
CK, they take the files off their FTP site!!! :( Go figure! They are
getting ready to release their next version. If you would like a copy of
the files I mentioned for download, let me know if you have MIME capability
in your e-mail and I'll just attach the two files. (Be warned, the files
are pretty big and if you have a modem connection for e-mail it could take a
while to get the 5 Megs worth of files) Just let me know.
The only files at the FTP site right now are screen shots from the new
version .92 that is scheduled to come out this weekend (they keep saying that)
ftp://ici2.infohwy.com/pub/ckfiles/
ckbs01a.pcx 35 Kb Tue Oct 25 11:27:00 1994
ckscrn.zip 586 Kb Sun Oct 01 01:21:00 1995 zip compressed file
ckshot01.pcx 88 Kb Wed Oct 25 07:20:00 1995
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JEFFREY A. HALL" <76476.733(at)compuserve.com> |
No doubt experiencing "mach tuck"
Jeff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Sam Ray" <str(at)almaden.ibm.com> |
On 10/25/95 Curt Reimer wrote:
>They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
>them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
What's the phone number?
Sam Ray
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspeed over stress |
>
> > Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
>
> They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
> them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
>
>
> Curt Reimer
>
>
Well...tell us more.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "wayne bailey" <wayne(at)voyager.wilmington.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Justice's instructions |
> >I have had several local requests for Frank's instructions which I
> >recommend highly. Are Frank's instructions available in plain old
> >ASCII text format?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Upon request I will send out a diskette in ASCII format or most any
> other. FKJ
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of all that work, why don't you attach those ascii files to
your messages and distribute them via the rv-list?
Thanks and keep up the good work!! wayne
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
>Hi Jerry,
>I can't find the particular question and 'solution' yet, but I remember
>they sprayed that foam that sets up solid after a while. I presume
>they removed the elevator, cut a small hole in the rear spar between
>the flange strips, and shot in the foam where the problem existed.
>
>I think he stated or implied they would build a new horiz stab, but I
>wonder if that is always necessary as long as trim tab and everything
>is in working order.
>
>Bill Costello
>bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
>
>
Jerry:
Just a passing note on this subject. While at Lakeland 3 years ago I met a
guy who had sprayed foam into his elevator, only to find out too much had
been applied, causing the trailing edge radius to open up. He had used the
foam to re-expand the trailing edge after squeezing it to much to resolve
snatch problems. The result was agin the same elevator snatch problems. Read
you manual to see what Van has to say about this kind of problem, as the only
solution to fix it is to start over again......
Fred Stucklen RV6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab |
>
>In the empennage construction video showing the verticle stab there is
>mention of installing grommets (sp?) and string in case you ever want to run
>wire for lighting or antenna. Sounds like a good idea. Can someone give me
>some guidance as to what size holes/grommets? Also, can any grommet be used
>or do I need to be careful to avoid an adverse reaction to the primer etc.
>
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Dick Flunker
>Rookie, but making progress
>Rflunker(at)aol.com
>
>
Dick:
Use the same grommets that Van supplies with the kit. They are available in
Spruce & Specialty, or through Van's. You want to be able to run antenna
wire and/or a strobe light, or any combination you plan to have in the
tail......
Fred Stucklen RV6A N925RV (That's Nine To Five RV!!!)
WSTUCKLEN(at)AOL.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling F-673 aft side skins |
>>Just a comment on drilling skins in general. I used a sheet of mylar
drafting
>>material to transferr all hole locations marked on the frame to be skinned,
>>to the actual skin. Once the mylar was marked, I placed it over the skin
and
>>drilled 1/16" holes right through the mylar. The skin is then placed
>>position, and drilled in assembly with the ribs/bulkheads with a #41 bit. I
>>used this technique for all the skins on my RV-6A. The mylar for each skin
is
>>saved in case a repair/replacement has to be made in the distant future.
>>
>
>Fred,
> this sounds like a great idea, how did you reference the mylar to the
>skin placement (overhang at traing edge) etc.?
>
>Ed Cole
>RV6a Emmpenage
>ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
ED:
I used two sheets on each half of the horizontal stab and the vertical stab.
I used the trailing edge of the spare as the reference for all parts. Two
sheets were used as the leading edge curvature of these parts was two tight.
Usually I would make the mylar sheet the size of the INSIDE surface of the
skin to minimize curvature errors.
Hope this helps....
Fred Stucklen RV6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Overspeed over stress |
Could someone out there explain how drag affects load on the wings. I'm
just curious how much a factor that drag (longitudinal force, maybe?) plays
in the design of a wing. Is that something that is designed way over-kill
and not even really a concern. Or something that has to be seriously
considered before placing cargo pods or something extruding from the wing?
Is it something that could become a life theatening situation even before
flutter? (Is it possible/likely a wing could shear off at 230mph?) not that
I intend to go that fast in my 6a, just curious.
-Thanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Wittman <73362.2004(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Empennage Questions |
Brad Hamlin wrote:
>Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
My experience and the consensus of the List (as I interpreted it when this
question went around several months ago) leans heavily towards dimpling. Once
you get the right combination of hammer and effort worked out the dimples accept
the rivets so perfectly that they will be barely noticeable with a good paint
job. Good luck.
Jim Wittman RV6 #24048 (Wing kit came yesterday!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Empennage Questions |
> > Last, is it better to countersink or dimple the horiz and vert stab skins?
>
> dimple! Someone posted the mil specs here some time ago, and
> it's clear that dimpling is significantly stronger.
>
Definitely dimple. I had countersunk my skins on the HS, and was
unable to get any consistency in the way the CAS was done, even with
a microstop countersinking tool. I just ordered new part to redo the
whol HS, this time DIMPLED.
A motto I saw go by in the list - Countersink only when its too thick
to dimple. I plan to live by this rule from now on
Relating to the rivets up in the leading edge, I can say from my
experience that the one up front is Very difficult to buck. I now
have the chance to try mine again.
Lynwood "Woody" Stagg
RV-6 tail kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | drilling lightning holes in HS rib (NOT) |
Someone asked a question about a week or two ago asking if
they should drill the lightning holes in the root ribs of the HS
(and maybe the VS).
In general it is a don't care. I was installing my HS on my RV4 this
weekend (for the Nth) time and I saw that I did not drill the lightning
holes. Now I am glad I did not. If you have the holes there, that
is just one more place for mice to get into. This happened on my
C170 and it is very difficult to mice urine/feces out of there.
The only hole you really need is the hole for the trim cable and it
should just be a oblonged hole large enough for the cable to fit
through. Its interesting how mice will crawl up into an airplane
and make nests.
The only advantage to having the lightning hole is a very minor
wt. change (4 holes at 2 inches diam or so). You could also
use them to look inside if needed for inspection.
My feeling is if you primed in there there should be no need to
have the hole and that will guarentee one less place a rodent
can get into.
Herman Dierks
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING None
Steve, we have all seen the thrust/drag curves. That is, you will continue to
accelerate until drag equals available thrust. At that point the two forces
are equal and OPPOSITE each other thus preventing any speed increase.
(Assuming NORMAL flight attitudes) your wing is designed to safely handle all
drag and g forces. By adding a tip tank or cargo pod you will be increasing
frontal area and therefore drag will always be higher for ANY given speed than
without these extra features. However, you will never be able to increase
drag more than available trust. What this means is (if horsepower stays the
same) your increased drag will SLOW DOWN your speed thus your total drag will
remain the same. Vne will also be LOWERED. Think about it ... because of your
increased drag the destructive Vne forces will be developed sooner (at a lower
speed)!
The drag forces are displaced along the whole wing but concentrated at the
wing-attach-point. All forward thrust is trying to pull the wing forward at
this attach point. You will never add more force there because you will run
out of horsepower(thrust) to do it.
Another example, think of your wing as a sheet metal rectangle without any
cover. You can easily distort the rectangle by pushing on any side. However,
rivet a sheetmetal cover to the two sides and it becomes an incredibly rigid
structure capable of handling the drag.
Where you get into problems is the placement of weight on the wing. Tip tanks
add tremendous static loads at the tip. So, bending moment, cg and other
dynamic forces are far more important considerations. Also the shape of the
appendage has an effect on the center-of-pressure, laminar flow, and other
details too important to be treated in a cursory manner here. Bottom
line...if you are not in partnership with the designer you are moving into a
very dangerous environment!!
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
I am resending this older msg on Ivo Props from Jim Cone.
He says they are deadly.
Herman
> From root Sun May 28 00:17:13 1995
> From: aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
> Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 22:50:38 -0400
> Message-Id: <950527225037_14568943(at)aol.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Ivo Props
>
> As I said earlier, the failure mode is at the bolt holes. The inboard part
> of the prop and the bolts stay with the airplane, and the blade from the
> bolt holes outboard depart the plane. This is indeed most likely caused by
> the power pulse of the engine causing the blade to retreat and advance as the
> power and compression strokes occur. After one blade departs, the engine
> shakes so violently that it breaks the engine mount. This precipitates an
> immediate forced landing if you are lucky enough to keep the engine attached
> to the airplane. If the engine departs the plane, you're dead! Period! Ivo
> Prop continues to deny any problems with the props. I don't know how these
> people can look themselves in the mirror without throwing up in disgust.
> Spread the word; Ivo Props are deadly! Use one only if you have a death
> wish and have your life insurance paid up. Jim Cone, Editor, Van's Air
> Force, Tri-State Wing.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | More on Ivo Props (full summary) |
I concatenated three seperate notes on Ivo Props from Jim Cone.
From his advice, don't use them.
Herman
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:35:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Composite props
IvoProp continues to deny that there is no problem with their props even
though ther have been several crashes, including at least two fatalities,
that resulted from their prop blades failing at the bolt holes. The blade
departs the aircraft and leaves a short stub inside the bolts. The resulting
vibration causes the engine to shake violently and sometimes results in
engine mount failure. Bob Treuter is lucky to be alive and tells a horifying
story of his crash. You can contact Bob at 745 Quixote Avenue, North,
Lakeland, MN 55043, Phone (612) 436-8471. He has been gathering information
about the many blade failures and spreading the word about IvoProp's
continued denial of any problems with their props. I personally feel that
IvoProp should be put out of business by spreading the word about their
defective and dangerous props. Anyone who flies with an IvoProp is betting
their life on a liar.
As Bob says, friends don't let friends fly behind IvoProp.
From: aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 18:03:58 -0400
Subject: props
I built a Sea Hawker and used a three blade Warp Drive prop on a 160 hp Lyc.
After a few hours, the paint started cracking at the blade root. Warp Drive
sent me a new four blade prop by next day air and I had no further problems.
Warp Drive does not recommend the three blade prop for high hp applications;
the blades need too much pitch to work well and then can't handle the power
pulse of the engine. The four blade gives better acceleration and climb
performance at the cost of top speed. I cruised at 122 knots with the three
blade but could only get 110 knots with the four. They are working on a
blade for higher hp applications. Warp Drive is a very good company to work
with.
The same cannot be said for the folks at Ivo Prop. Last year at Oshkosh they
were still denying any problems with their props even though there have been
several crashes because of blade failure and separation, including two fatal
crashes. If you call Ivo Prop today, they still say that there has never
been
a problem with any of their props. I would avoid dealing with them. They
don't care about their customer's lives, and don't distinguish between the
truth and an outright lie. They will do anything for a buck. Aviation has
enough dangers without deliberately seeking them. I wish them nothing but
failure.
Jim Cone RV-6A builder and editor of Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing
Newsletter.
From: aol.com!JamesCone(at)matronics.com
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 22:50:38 -0400
Subject: Ivo Props
As I said earlier, the failure mode is at the bolt holes. The inboard part
of the prop and the bolts stay with the airplane, and the blade from the
bolt holes outboard depart the plane. This is indeed most likely caused by
the power pulse of the engine causing the blade to retreat and advance as the
power and compression strokes occur. After one blade departs, the engine
shakes so violently that it breaks the engine mount. This precipitates an
immediate forced landing if you are lucky enough to keep the engine attached
to the airplane. If the engine departs the plane, you're dead! Period! Ivo
Prop continues to deny any problems with the props. I don't know how these
people can look themselves in the mirror without throwing up in disgust.
Spread the word; Ivo Props are deadly! Use one only if you have a death
wish and have your life insurance paid up. Jim Cone, Editor, Van's Air
Force, Tri-State Wing.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Light for Master Switch (fwd) |
This may have been in the 'craftsman corner' in Sport Aviation.
They have had several articles on lights and switches.
>
> I read an article in the last year about a method of having a bright light
> come on, if the master switch was left on, when the engine was not running. It
> seems a good idea.
>
> Could someone help me find it again , please ? John
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
>Steve, we have all seen the thrust/drag curves. That is, you will continue to
>accelerate until drag equals available thrust. At that point the two forces
>are equal and OPPOSITE each other thus preventing any speed increase.
>(Assuming NORMAL flight attitudes) your wing is designed to safely handle all
>drag and g forces. By adding a tip tank or cargo pod you will be increasing
>frontal area and therefore drag will always be higher for ANY given speed than
>without these extra features. However, you will never be able to increase
>drag more than available trust. What this means is (if horsepower stays the
>same) your increased drag will SLOW DOWN your speed thus your total drag will
>remain the same. Vne will also be LOWERED. Think about it ... because of your
>increased drag the destructive Vne forces will be developed sooner (at a lower
>speed)!
I under stand the available thrust vs. drag idea, but I was trying to
understand the relative amount of strength the wings have to combat that
particular component of force. Sorta like, you build a nifty little lever
out of steel that is designed to switch a component that requires virtually
no force to move, but you don't want to make the switch so small that it is
impractical to use, so you make it the right size to for the average finger
to flip (even though at this size the lever wouldn't break under 50x the
resistance the component develops). My point being... When designing a
wing, to overcome loads like G forces and such, does that design inherantly
create a strength against the drag loads that is far stronger than even
300mph could create? This must sound like a strange question!
>The drag forces are displaced along the whole wing but concentrated at the
>wing-attach-point. All forward thrust is trying to pull the wing forward at
>this attach point. You will never add more force there because you will run
>out of horsepower(thrust) to do it.
I understand this point, but what about in a shallow dive, now you are
adding drag due to your increased airspeed because gravity is adding a bit
to your thrust vector. (in essense giving you more horsepower)
>Another example, think of your wing as a sheet metal rectangle without any
>cover. You can easily distort the rectangle by pushing on any side. However,
>rivet a sheetmetal cover to the two sides and it becomes an incredibly rigid
>structure capable of handling the drag.
Right, so is this design used to give the ability to overcome the static
loads/g forces etc, and in turn happens to create far more strength than is
needed against the longitudenal forces.
>Where you get into problems is the placement of weight on the wing. Tip tanks
>add tremendous static loads at the tip. So, bending moment, cg and other
>dynamic forces are far more important considerations. Also the shape of the
>appendage has an effect on the center-of-pressure, laminar flow, and other
>details too important to be treated in a cursory manner here. Bottom
>line...if you are not in partnership with the designer you are moving into a
>very dangerous environment!!
My question wasn't a sneaky way to get information to make some modification
to the plans. There are very few modifications to the plans I feel I'm
qualified to make. Hearing these types of comments about aerodynamics just
strengthens my desire to stick to the plans!!
Sometimes I feel my questions get fairly strange and I'm not sure how useful
they are to me, but I usually learn something from them. I remember as a
kid asking my Dad how fast an Aircraft could go if you tied all the aircraft
down and turned the afterburners on. hehe, probably not much to learn from
that one, except how to make real strong tie downs. :)
-Thanks for the input
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: speed brakes |
I'd like the phone number for speed brakes also.
Fred, Rv-6A
On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Sam Ray wrote:
> On 10/25/95 Curt Reimer wrote:
>
> >They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
> >them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
>
> What's the phone number?
>
> Sam Ray
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | RV crash at Longmont CO |
I just heard that an RV-4 spun in and burned last Saturday afternoon at the
airport at Longmont CO. The pilot was killed, no passengers. Witnesses
stated the aircraft had smoke coming from it as it spun into the ground next
to the runway. No word yet as to who was the pilot. The number on the
aircraft seems to be N611R from a newspaper article a friend sent me.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barr(at)netcom.netcom.com (Keith Barr) |
| Subject: | Re: RV crash at Longmont CO |
John Ammeter says:
> I just heard that an RV-4 spun in and burned last Saturday afternoon at the
> airport at Longmont CO. The pilot was killed, no passengers. Witnesses
> stated the aircraft had smoke coming from it as it spun into the ground next
> to the runway. No word yet as to who was the pilot. The number on the
> aircraft seems to be N611R from a newspaper article a friend sent me.
It was a few weekends ago.
Apparently (heard this at the last local EAA meeting) his battery exploded,
probably killing, or at least disabling, him immediately. The airplane
then dropped about 800' onto the airport. It was some sort of gell-cell
battery. I cannot remember his name, but he recently moved to the Longmont
area from the Dallas area.
___________________________________ _____
| Keith Barr barr(at)netcom.com \ \ \__ _____
| COM-ASMEL-IA-A&IGI \ \ \/_______\___\_____________
| Westminster, Colorado, USA }-----< /_/ ....................... `-.
| http://chinook.atd.ucar.edu/~barr / `-----------,----,--------------'
|___________________________________/ _/____/0
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Light for Master Switch |
frontier.canrem.com!jcocker(at)matronics.com (John Cocker) writes:
>I read an article in the last year about a method of having a bright light
>come on, if the master switch was left on, when the engine was not running.
>It
>seems a good idea.
>
John, One way is to put the light in series with your oil pressure switch.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-6 to 6A
>>I don't want to open the old 6 vs 6A arguement again, but I was curious
>>what your reasons are for doing the conversion. It would seem like a lot
>>of work, expense and downtime, so I assume you must really dislike the
>>taildragger.
>>
>>Curt Reimer
>>
I posted a msg to John Delavue today which should answer your question. On
the contrary, I think the taildragger is one of the best.,
Jim Stugart>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Speedbrakes |
On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > > Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
> >
> > They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
> > them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
> >
> Well...tell us more.
Ok, since there seems to be a lot of interest I'll post the relevant data
from the brochure. Unfortunately, that brochure is at home and I won't
have a chance to do this for a day or two, so please be patient.
What I can tell you from memory is that the speedbrakes are vertical
perforated plates that pop up from the top surface of the wings. They are
manually operated via a lever. I don't think there was any stated speed
restriction for the brakes. They look well made, yet small and light.
They mount near the access panel in the wing and thus can be retrofitted
to completed wings. I don't recall the price, but I don't think they were
cheap. Well, that's about all I can recall, so I'll post the real info as
soon as I can.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mkerzie(at)qnet.com (Mark G. Kerzie) |
| Subject: | Re: Justice's instructions -Reply |
Where can I get a hold of the Word file? FTP site?
By the way, it's AMAZING how much this doc helps!
mkerzie(at)qnet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Matt G. Dralle" <dralle(at)matronics.com> |
| Subject: | CNC CAD/CAM Software Reviews (Additional Comments Requested)... |
I am currently in the market for a small to medium CNC tabletop milling
machine. I have been looking at units by Minitech and Personal CNC and
a few others. Basically 1/2hp, 3 axis machines. While choosing the right
machine is a difficult decision, it is a cakewalk compared to choosing a
*good* software package. Below, I have noted my findings on the various
software packages I have heard about. Comments are most welcome.
My commends are from a neophyte CNC user's perspective, and may not reflect
reality.
I talked with Minitech on the phone today about their products. The guy said
they are, for a limited time, offering a software called "XCAD/CAM" for free
with the purchase of their machines. According to the WEB page, this
is a Windows program that normally sells for $1495. Free seems like a good deal
I guess although the actual value of software is hard to quanify. Has anyone
heard of this package or better yet, used it? Any good? Worth free?
Minitech's CNC mills seem pretty expensive, but they also seem to have their
act together. I was very impressed with the people I talked with on the phone.
They seemed knowledgable and very helpful. If the XCAD/CAM is a good
CAD/CAM software package, their prices fall more into line.
Check out Minitech's WEBpage if you havn't already. Its at
"www.mindspring.com/~minitech". I am thinking about the Minimill 2.
Is $5k a total rip off or maybe okay for all of the things you get with it?
Personal CNC has a number on interesting products, and yet more software that
I havn't heard of. Their prices are somewhate lower than Minitech's but,
based strickly on the information on the WEB pages, Personal CNC seems like
a guy working out of his neighbor's garage. Personal CNC doesn't list a
phone number on their WEB page, and 411 information doesn't have a listing.
I'm starting to see why their prices are lower... ;-) Check out their
WEB page at "lainet3.lainet.com/pcmotion/index.htm".
Surfing the Information Super Highway, BBSs, and AOL I found the following
CNC related software package for both CAD and CAM work. I've commented on
each. Please post your comments.
Surfcam Very cool and probably the niftiest of the demos I found.
Still, it wasn't the easiest program to use. I didn't really
fell like I could just design a part and set the CNC off
a`worrin...
Shopcam Pretty awsome screen, but very weird interface. Never could
really figure out how do do anything useful. Maybe with
a manual, but I'd hate to spend money on this program.
CadCam2.2 I give up, I can't figure how to even use this one.
Cams Another one that I can't seem to get to do anything.
Bobcad Well, this one at least has some promise. I could actually
read my DXF part. A manual might make this a usable
package. Still, I don't know that I'd feel good about paying
the $800-900 for it.
Dancam Well, supposedly there is a "danCAD" as well that would allow
the generation of cam files. Dancam by itself doesn't do
much for me. Since I don't have a mill attached, the
program just hangs trying to talk to the interface. There
doesn't appear to be a "graphics emulation" mode. At
least the price is right ($10). Is danCAD any good?
Mcm Multicam Mill by MicroKinetics. By far the best CNC specific
cad program I have found. However, the EGA graphics really
suck and the mouse movement and grid is very difficult to use.
This program actually allows you to define a pocket or island
and shows it correctly on the screen. It is also very
easy to build a complex pocket or island. Anyway, I would
give this program "best concept", but about a '2' for
implimentation. I have requested pricing but havn't yet
received it. I would pay $100 for it, but I suspect they
might feel it's worth more like $1000. I don't, so I guess
we'll see.
Mmpro Millmaster Pro also by MicroKinetics. Again, by far the
best CNC control program I have found. The graphics of the
mill table are excellent - even in EGA (VGA?). Since I don't
have any real CNC files yet (can't find a program that I
can either use or will actually output data (mostly demos),
I can't really tell if this program would work well in
actual practice. Again, if the price is right this might
be useable.
CNC Pro Program available with the Minitech systems. Don't have
a
demo so I don't know if its any good.
XCAD/CAM Windows combo program. There currently isn't a demo available
for this program so I guess I either buy it ($1495!) or
buy a Minitech Mill and try it out for free.
And that's all I found on the Information Super Highway. Are there other
programs I've missed? With the possible exception of XCAD/CAM, none of the
programs are really up to the quality of even the most basic CAD programs
available these days. I normally use Micrographix Designer for my CAD
work and once in a while Autocad LT for Windows. These are really CAD
programs - and they're less than $500! There must be some "good" cad/cam
programs out there.... Comments? Sources of other CAD/CAM demo software
I could try out?
Thanks,
Matt Dralle
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Justice's instructions |
Confirmation of reading: your message -
Date: 25 Oct 95 12:48
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Justice's instructions
Was read at 8:19, 26 Oct 95.
************************************************************************
* Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd *
* Project Manager 65 Iber Rd. *
* Defence Systems Stittsville, Ont *
* VOX 613-831-0888 K2S 1E7 *
* FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca *
************************************************************************
* RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 *
* EAA# - 367635 DoD# - 1506 *
************************************************************************
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: CNC CAD/CAM Software Reviews (Additional Comments Requested)... |
I'm a new subscriber- Re milling machine/cad-cam, please post www or ftp
addresses for these demo packs as I have similar interest. Also try Ah-Ha,
they offer cam retrofit kits for anything pretty cheap at ~1000/axis. Just
get a bridgeport at an auction for 4000 then add ah ha, $6k and you have much
bigger capacity. I go to these auctions, let me know what you need, as I
have some things for sale right now (20" delta bandsaw, emmert pattern vise)
JELKIL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
I'm looking for a 149-tooth ( I think it's 149???, well not the 122,
that's what I mean) starter ring gear for a Lyc. O-320. Anybody got one
layin' around? Let's make a deal.
_______________________________________________________________________
| |
| ( ) |
| ( ) ( ) San Jose tower... Chris Ruble |
| /\ )( ) 85W is ready on the right. cruble(at)cisco.com |
| / \) /\ ) ) / Piper PA-28-180 |
| / \/ \ ) __|__ N8085W |
|/ \ \ _____(o)_____ Shelter 92, SJC |
|________\___\___!_ ! _!________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Spruell, Steven E." <sspruell(at)ssf8.jsc.nasa.gov> |
| Subject: | Soon to be new builder |
Greetings!
I am relatively new to this group, but I've already read about half of
the archive file. Boy, that is some great information!
I will be ordering the tail kit for the -6A after the Holidays (I'm in
tool scrounge mode now) and I'm looking for some local RV builders. Are
any of you local to the Houston area? I would love to see a plane in
progress, but I would love even more to get a ride in one :). I will be
joining the local EAA chapter and I'm sure I will find some there, but I
just thought I would try here first.
Thanks for the info and happy building!
Steven Spruell
------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Spruell | PP-ASEL
sspruell(at)ssf8.jsc.nasa.gov | SPX / League City, TX
Sr. Systems Analyst/Lockheed Martin | 3 Young Eagles Flown
------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Porter <71714.2624(at)compuserve.com> |
Hi,
I was given this address to receive information on RV building info. I will
be building an RV-8 as soon as the kits are offered. Any info will be
appreciated. Thanks.
John Porter
address: 71714.2624(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- CNC CAD/CAM So |
Reply to: RE>>RV-List: CNC CAD/CAM Software Reviews (Additional...
Looking for NC retrofit to a Wells Index. What is the phone number or e-mail
address? Is Ah-Ha the company name?
Thanx,Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Mailing List |
>Hi,
> I was given this address to receive information on RV building info. I will
>be building an RV-8 as soon as the kits are offered. Any info will be
>appreciated. Thanks.
>
>John Porter
>address: 71714.2624(at)compuserve.com
Hi John,
Send an e-mail to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com and
include the word "suscribe" in the body of the message. This will get you
all of the postings as they occur.
... good luck .. Gil Alexander
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Portland Trip (Chatter) |
Portland area RVers:
My father and I plan on visiting Van's December 1. We'll come up Thursday
and leave Sunday. I will be coming from Texas, and my father will be coming
from Kansas City.
Is there anyone in the group in the Portland area who would be willing to
let us take a look at their project, or perhaps a completed 6 or 6A? I
talked quite a bit to the factory pilot in the 6T at Kerrville, Tx last
weekend, but it would be nice to talk at length to someone who has built
and/or is building their own who has gotten pretty far.
To be honest, I'm pretty much sold on the 6. It's just a matter of time.
My father, on the other hand, claims he's only doing this to burn up some
leave before the end of the year. I suspect a factory visit might set the
hook.
Thanks.
Ben Armstrong
Wannabe 6 Builder
RV-List Lurker
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-List- CNC CAD/CAM So |
Ah Ha :612-331-7657 catalog 10 or 15 bucks; good info....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Mailing List |
Sorry guys,
... I meant to send this privately, and it slipped out to the list :^)
Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 moving seat hinges 3/8 inch to correct
some plan dimension errors
>>Hi,
>> I was given this address to receive information on RV building info. I will
>>be building an RV-8 as soon as the kits are offered. Any info will be
>>appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>>John Porter
>>address: 71714.2624(at)compuserve.com
>
>Hi John,
> Send an e-mail to rv-list-request(at)matronics.com and
>include the word "suscribe" in the body of the message. This will get you
>all of the postings as they occur.
>
> ... good luck .. Gil Alexander
>
>gil(at)rassp.hac.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com (Alex Munro) |
| Subject: | Re: CNC CAD/CAM Software Reviews (Additional Comments Requested)... |
I have spoken with the guy at Personal CNC and I think your assumption about
the size of his operation is correct. However some people also manufacture
airplanes in a garage...
I have been programming aircraft parts/tooling for a living for eight years.
I currently use Teksoft Procad/Procam, although I still design most things
in Cadkey (I've been using it so long that it thinks like I do). Cadkey is
far and away the best PC based drafting tool. There is a Windows version
available but it's lame. Insist on the DOS version. Though it used to cost
$3200 it dropped down to $495 for a while and I even got a copy for $295.
Teksoft is rather expensive. I think it's $5000 for a 2D set (which does
profiles, pockets and lace milling with islands and z wall definition. It
drills, peck drills, reams, taps, and some other stuff I don't remember),
and a 2D/3D surface milling set up is $11,000. It does shaded models
instantly. As I understand it, Teksoft and Surfcam have the same roots from
years back. Many shops use Mastercam, but I don't like it.
>
>
>Surfcam Very cool and probably the niftiest of the demos I found.
> Still, it wasn't the easiest program to use. I didn't really
> fell like I could just design a part and set the CNC off
> a`worrin...
Probably the best, short of ProE or Catia. Hope you've got $15,000. The
windows version smokes Teksoft, and operates very much like Cadkey.
>
>Shopcam Pretty awsome screen, but very weird interface. Never
could
> really figure out how do do anything useful. Maybe with
> a manual, but I'd hate to spend money on this program.
>
>CadCam2.2 I give up, I can't figure how to even use this one.
>
>Cams Another one that I can't seem to get to do anything.
>
>Bobcad Well, this one at least has some promise. I could actually
> read my DXF part. A manual might make this a usable
> package. Still, I don't know that I'd feel good about paying
> the $800-900 for it.
>
>Dancam Well, supposedly there is a "danCAD" as well that would
allow
> the generation of cam files. Dancam by itself doesn't do
> much for me. Since I don't have a mill attached, the
> program just hangs trying to talk to the interface. There
> doesn't appear to be a "graphics emulation" mode. At
> least the price is right ($10). Is danCAD any good?
>
>Mcm Multicam Mill by MicroKinetics. By far the best CNC specific
> cad program I have found. However, the EGA graphics really
> suck and the mouse movement and grid is very difficult to use.
> This program actually allows you to define a pocket or island
> and shows it correctly on the screen. It is also very
> easy to build a complex pocket or island. Anyway, I would
> give this program "best concept", but about a '2' for
> implimentation. I have requested pricing but havn't yet
> received it. I would pay $100 for it, but I suspect they
> might feel it's worth more like $1000. I don't, so I guess
> we'll see.
>
>Mmpro Millmaster Pro also by MicroKinetics. Again, by far the
> best CNC control program I have found. The graphics of the
> mill table are excellent - even in EGA (VGA?). Since I don't
> have any real CNC files yet (can't find a program that I
> can either use or will actually output data (mostly demos),
> I can't really tell if this program would work well in
> actual practice. Again, if the price is right this might
> be useable.
I have to admit I haven't heard of any of those.
>
>CNC Pro Program available with the Minitech systems. Don't have
a
> demo so I don't know if its any good.
>
I have been in contact with them also. Since I already have the software
side kind of covered, I didn't push them for info. When he found out what I
was using, he laughed and said that I wouldn't need his software.
>XCAD/CAM Windows combo program. There currently isn't a demo available
> for this program so I guess I either buy it ($1495!) or
> buy a Minitech Mill and try it out for free.
>
>
>And that's all I found on the Information Super Highway. Are there other
>programs I've missed? With the possible exception of XCAD/CAM, none of the
>programs are really up to the quality of even the most basic CAD programs
>available these days. I normally use Micrographix Designer for my CAD
>work and once in a while Autocad LT for Windows. These are really CAD
>programs - and they're less than $500! There must be some "good" cad/cam
>programs out there.... Comments? Sources of other CAD/CAM demo software
>I could try out?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Matt Dralle
>
>
I've seen many references to free download versions of CAD software and some
lofting software too (might be more handy than you think). I'll try and
post here when I stumble upon it again. I would also steer you to the CNC
programmers usenet group, but I'm the only person who posts there...
----------------------------------------------------------------
'79 Westy
'75 Rabbit (bullet proof)
'80 Rabbit Convert. (shot)
'85 Vanagon wannabe
My other Sig is a P220
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com (Alex Munro) |
| Subject: | Re: CNC CAD/CAM Software Reviews (Additional Comments Requested)... |
>I'm a new subscriber- Re milling machine/cad-cam, please post www or ftp
>addresses for these demo packs as I have similar interest. Also try Ah-Ha,
>they offer cam retrofit kits for anything pretty cheap at ~1000/axis. Just
>get a bridgeport at an auction for 4000 then add ah ha, $6k and you have much
>bigger capacity. I go to these auctions, let me know what you need, as I
>have some things for sale right now (20" delta bandsaw, emmert pattern vise)
>
> JELKIL
>
Having actually gathered info and gotten quotes to make a 3 & 4 axis mill
from scratch, I have come to the conclusion that it would definitely be
easier to retrofit an old Bridgeport. Please zap me some info regarding
Ah-Ha (never heard of it).
----------------------------------------------------------------
'79 Westy
'75 Rabbit (bullet proof)
'80 Rabbit Convert. (shot)
'85 Vanagon wannabe
RV6 wannabe
My other Sig is a P220
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | 75223.342(at)compuserve.com |
Hi All.
I just purchased a RV-4 tail kit from Vans. I am sure I will have lots of questions.
So sign me up. My name is Doug Schueneman. I live in Allen Park Michigan.
I am a Metal Model Maker by trade.
Looking forward to the project and meeting you all.
V/R
Doug Schueneman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | Dralle (CAD/CAM) |
REGARDING Dralle (CAD/CAM)
Wow Matt, you have really opened up an incredible subject. I'm amazed at all
of the exploratory work you have done electronically! However, to make a good
choice it could not possibly be covered in this message ... so I guess more
will follow.
NC has been a life-long interest of mine. You mentioned two outstanding
progams that I know about and some others I have never heard of - and I
thought I was abreast of all of them...great job!
I am not trying to be critical here I only want to offer some ideas so you can
make a good decision that is best for your situation. Believe me even thought
most of us are cutting aluminum everyone's needs will be dramatically
different. You need to know the difference in order to choose the system best
for you.
First, the general tone of your survey was that almost all of the programs
either, under performed to your expectations, blew-up, or in some manner were
most likely over priced. NOT TRUE. In fact BOBCAD and SURFCAM are
outstanding tools for different reasons. What you need to consider is that
you performed an electronic test - not a real world evaluation making chips in
the garage. Second CAM is NOT CAD and don't even think they are the same. In
fact the acronym is even WRONG. It should have been CAM/CAD because CAM was
developed in 1953 and CAD started about1973. Autocad was developed in the
early 80's so CAM came before CAD by at least 30 years!
Important stuff - next message,
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
| Subject: | More (CAD/CAM) for Matt |
REGARDING More (CAD/CAM) for Matt
All a CAD program is worried about is putting geometry down on paper. (OK I'm
oversimplifying to make a point). But, IGES, DXF ASCII, DNC etc are only file
protocols. Yep, 2D&3D is mathamatically powerful but it only has to display a
2D world!
CAM is trying to take a real machine and replicate that CAD geometry
(physically cut it) into a material. It has to worry about backlash
compensation, CW and CCW cutter rotation, cutter compensation, rapid traverse
accell and decell, chip load, cutter rpm, coolant on/off, pocket milling,
continuos path closed-loop tool control on 3D, 2D linear and circular
interpolation and the vagrancy's of hundreds of different machines. Cusping,
ramping, how to exit a pocket - hundreds of little tricks that even journeyman
machinists will learn will be built into the software and the MANUALS! You
CANNOT determine these abilities from a screen plot. I am sorry to hear that
some of the simulators were very poor - but be cautious in your judgment.
IMPORTANT POINT: Everyone varies in their machining abilities and
experience. If you are not a machinist you will need more machining "smarts"
built into the software. If you are an accomplished machinist the software
can be less sophisticated. Don't minimized that statement - it is critical to
your success. It also equates to $$$money! Good software is modular. That
is, you can buy additional sophistication as your learn more or as your needs
change or grow. If the software is not modular forget it. This again equates
to cost. Entry-level SURFCAN can be aprox $1,200 but can grow to $5,500!
Both are excellent deals - depending on your needs.
The software must be able to talk to your machine control. It does this
through a POST-PROCESSOR. If you buy another machine or change the machine
you need a new POST. The company's willingness/experience to write a new post
is critical. Is the company here for the long haul? What is the cost of
training? Your work has just begun, enjoy - and (sincerely) good luck.
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
After reading about dimpling vs countersinking both here and other
publications, I decided to dimple all of my Verticle Stab. Well, I dimpled
the skin, and now am having difficulty dimpling the skeleton - hindsight is
wonderful in that it should have been obvious that dimpling the skeleton
would be more difficult than the skin, so should have done that first, but..
So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't center the female side of the
dimple set on the holes in the VS rear spar. If I were able to file away
part of the female side of the set, it would probably fit, but even if I did
that, how would I squeeze it?? Any suggestions??
I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to the
end, will that work??
Dick Flunker - RFLUNKER(at)aol.com
Some nights are definitely more fun than others...
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV6 Tail Builders |
Hey guys, here's some information you might find helpful when ordering your
wing kit (no fast build options).
Date Order Faxed: August 2
Date Order Shipped: October 18
Date Order Received in Sparta, IL October 26
Shipping cost $112.65
Wings shipped in two wooden crates approximately 200 lbs each.
Spar Crate: 10"x8"x14.5'
Other Crate: 8"x31"x8'
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Anyone using an IvoProp on an RV? Reply |
If anyone buys an IVOPROP, they are out of their mind or have a death wish.
There have been a large number of failures of the props including at least
three that have resulted in fatalities. The company continues to insist that
there is nothing wrong with their props and if you call them and ask if there
have been any problems they will lie to you and tell you that there have been
none. If you think that you still want a prop from these people, don't say
that you were not warned when you lose a blade and crash like so many others
have done.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
working on finishing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
>I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to the
>end, will that work??
I purchased some cheapy pull dimplers. These dies fit into your pull
riveter and worked quite well. You basically get two little dies put on one
the fromt side the other on the back and put a nail through the hole and use
your riverter.
I think they were about $5 each and came from Aircraft Tool Supply.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - ... |
At times like this it is best to call the factory and get help, this project
is suppose to be fun ,also I would be glad to help but we would wear out our
key boards so give me a call at (301)293-1505 some evening....George Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mpilla(at)ccsmtplink.espinc.com |
| Subject: | Anyone using an IvoProp on an RV? Reply |
There was an interesting article about the IVOPROPs in one of the many
aviation publications I receive, but I forget which one.
The gist of the article was that the IVOPROP has a different *natural
resonance* band and is more suited for *higher* frequency vibration
environments. When placed in a *low* frequency vibration environment,
the IVOPROP could (and has) disintegrate.
The article then went on to say that our Lycoming four bangers are
*low* frequency environments; thus, very unsuited to an IVOPROP.
Apparently, the IVOPROP is more suited to the 2-stroke engines, ...
Mike Pilla
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-List: Anyone using an IvoProp on an RV? Reply
Date: 10/27/95 12:20 AM
If anyone buys an IVOPROP, they are out of their mind or have a death wish.
There have been a large number of failures of the props including at least
three that have resulted in fatalities. The company continues to insist that
there is nothing wrong with their props and if you call them and ask if there
have been any problems they will lie to you and tell you that there have been
none. If you think that you still want a prop from these people, don't say
that you were not warned when you lose a blade and crash like so many others
have done.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
working on finishing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
Dick:
On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 you asked:
> So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't center the female side of the
> dimple set on the holes in the VS rear spar. If I were able to file away
> part of the female side of the set, it would probably fit, but even if I did
> that, how would I squeeze it?? Any suggestions??
Easy. Buy two things:
1. Avery sells a femail dimple die with the side filed off. They also sell
one with a reduced diameter. That will take care of the rivet holes
that you can get a squeezer on.
2. Avery sells a 'Pop Rivet Dimpler'. This is very useful in areas like
the nose-end of the ribs where the flanges are too close together
to fit a squeezer in.
What do you do if you have both problems? (The flanges are too close together
AND the hole is too close to the web)? grind the side off of the pop
rivet dimpler. That's what I've done. You *could* buy the vise-grip
dimpler and grind the side, but the pop-rivet dimpler is a lot cheaper.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Inverted fuel Tank and Proseal |
Regarding Proseal mixing:
Seems a lot of worry is expended over proper mixing (balance scales, etc).
After getting frustrated trying to make such a scale, I looked at the
directions and used the mixing by volume technique. Like Ross Mickey, I found
that the proper volume mixing ratio is 1/4 teaspoon accelerator to 1
tablespoon on the "white" stuff. Bought a set of cheap aluminum mixing spoons.
Take a tongue depressor and scoop out a glob into the tablespoon to accurately
measure it. Got a bunch of foam coffee cups, cut down to about 2" high. Mix
the two components in the foam cup with a tongue depressor. Throw away the
used cup and tongue depressor and use lacquer thinner to clean up the mixing
spoons. No problem and simple!
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Justice's instructions |
FKJ> Upon request I will send out a diskette in ASCII format or most any
FKJ> other. Since I have to convert them manually each time so you get the
FKJ> latest, I will normally only send out a few of the files rather than
FKJ> the whole thing.
FKJ> FKJ
Frank:
I would greatly appreciate this. Please send what you can and I'll return a
new diskette. We'll use it as a master copy for distribution to our local RV
group. Many, many thanks.
Doug Weiler
347 Krattley Lane
Hudson, WI 54016
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
Hi Dick,
I ran into this problem with the Horizontal Stabilizer. If you put the
rivets down the centerline of the rear spar flange, the spar strips cause
an interference problem when trying to dimple. After grinding a female
dimple die down to a grain of sand, creating a dimpling contraption out of
a "C" clamp and trying a second hand squeezer (The avery squeezer which
uses pneumatic heads are too large to get in tight due to their industrial
nature), I found the best way to dimple the holes is to grind the female
die of a pop rivet dimpler flat on one side. You can get as close as
possible with this tool. The angle is a bit different on the dimple that
is created, but I feel it is acceptable considering the situation. 2-3
holes can be dimpled before having to change the nail. I purchased a whole
box of finishing nails at home depot for $4.00. You'll need plenty extra
if your doing a lot of dimpling with this tool since the pop rivet forms
"edges" on the nail when squeezing to dimple. The "edges" expand the metal
on the nail making it difficult to fit the nail into the next hole.
Do NOT countersink the spar. The factory also discourages countersinking
the ribs.
Try the pop rivet dimpler sold by Avery. It worked very well for me.
John
>After reading about dimpling vs countersinking both here and other
>publications, I decided to dimple all of my Verticle Stab. Well, I dimpled
>the skin, and now am having difficulty dimpling the skeleton - hindsight is
>wonderful in that it should have been obvious that dimpling the skeleton
>would be more difficult than the skin, so should have done that first, but..
> So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't center the female side of the
>dimple set on the holes in the VS rear spar. If I were able to file away
>part of the female side of the set, it would probably fit, but even if I did
>that, how would I squeeze it?? Any suggestions??
>
>I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to the
>end, will that work??
>
>Dick Flunker - RFLUNKER(at)aol.com
>Some nights are definitely more fun than others...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
ao> have done that first, but.. So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't
ao> center the female side of the dimple set on the holes in the VS rear
ao> spar. If I were able to file away part of the female side of the set,
ao> it would probably fit, but even if I did that, how would I squeeze it??
ao> Any suggestions??
ao> I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to
ao> the end, will that work??
Dick:
Purchase Avery's Vice Grip dimpler (it has a 3/32 dimple die welded at the end)
and grind down the female side as flat a possible. I use mine constantly for
tight dimpling situations such as this. You have to set the vice grip to
squeeze very tightly and it's sometimes a little rough on the hands, but it
works.
Doug
... Doug Weiler, Hudson, WI, pres MN Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Doug Weiler <Doug.Weiler(at)swamp.mn.org> |
Fellow Listers:
If any of you are approaching the painting stage of your airplane, here's a tip
I got from one of the EAA's videos on painting: Use freezer paper for masking.
I just completed some touchup work on my C-180 and used it and it is really
great. One side is plastic. Fold the paper in half with the plastic sides
together and you have a very durable, waterproof masking paper to which masking
tape sticks great and no leaks. Reynolds makes it and I got my roll at Wal-Mart
for $5.
Doug, Mn Wing, doug.weiler(at)swamp.mn.org
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Hulse <mikeh(at)zipper.netcom.com> |
| Subject: | Re:Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
Dick:
I had the same problem. I was going to machine countersink, but, due to
the arguments on this list, I chose the dimple route for both my HS and
VS. In hindsight I MUCH prefer dimpling. It is much stronger and much easier
(to do right). I was able to use the squeezer and the ground female die on
some holes, but not all of them.
What I did was get the vice-grip dimpler from Avery and ground the female
side. There weren't any holes that I couldn't dimple. I also purchased the
$5 pop-dimple die from Air Tool Supply and the quality of the dimple was
unacceptable, so I never use it. Maybe the one from Avery is much better, but
the one from ATS was so bad it left me a bad taste for pop dimplers.
I hope this helps!
Mike
RV-6(A)
H.S. - Done
V.S. - Done
Rudder - Done
Elevators - In progress
Wings - On the way (With a 12 week lead time!)
----
>After reading about dimpling vs countersinking both here and other
>publications, I decided to dimple all of my Verticle Stab. Well, I dimpled
>the skin, and now am having difficulty dimpling the skeleton - hindsight is
>wonderful in that it should have been obvious that dimpling the skeleton
>would be more difficult than the skin, so should have done that first, but..
> So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't center the female side of the
>dimple set on the holes in the VS rear spar. If I were able to file away
>part of the female side of the set, it would probably fit, but even if I did
>that, how would I squeeze it?? Any suggestions??
>
>I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to the
>end, will that work??
>
>
>Dick Flunker - RFLUNKER(at)aol.com
>Some nights are definitely more fun than others...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
| Subject: | Wing Video Tapes |
Hi Guy's,
Has anyone got a set of Orndorff's wing assembly video tapes for sale?
Original's only please.
Thanks,
Ed Cole RV24430 Emmpenage
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Neeper <Russell.Neeper(at)net.tamu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
> So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't center the female side of the
> dimple set on the holes in the VS rear spar.
[snip]
> I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to the
> end, will that work??
Yes - that's what I did and I was very pleased with the results. I purchased
the vise grip dimpler from Avery and used a grinder to grind a flat spot
on the female die (on the side away from the handle). Worked very well
and is, in my opinion, quicker and easier to use than the pop rivet dimpler.
I have found this tool to be useful for more than just the HS/VS rear spars
as it will often work where a squeezer will not fit.
The only problem I have with this dimpler is that I usually have to slightly
deepen the dimple with a few turns of the countersink so that the skin will
fit tightly against the spar/rib flange.
------
Russell Neeper
russell(at)net.tamu.edu
RV-6a 22884 - Skinning my first wing.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | horiz stab skin question...and a tip |
I have a question and a builder's tip...
I'm fitting the skins to my RV4 horizontal stab, and I'm having trouble
getting the
overhang at the rear spar to match exactly the tolerances on the blueprints
(1.25" at the root, 1 3/16 at the tip). Are these exact dimensions, or
minimums?
My skins overhang 1.25" at the root, but 1 3/8 at the tips. No matter how
many times
I slide the skins up and down I can't seem to get the dimensions just right.
A tip: I tried this last night and it worked well.
To determine the locations of the spars and ribs under the skins for purposes
of marking
where the rivet lines will go, I did this. Cut some 18 gauge ductile iron
wire (from HQ)
the right lengths to fit inside the flanges of the ribs and spars. Used
strips of duct tape
about 1/4" wide to tape the wire (very precisely) to the centers, lengthwise,
of the ribs
and spars, so the wire 'marks' the flange centerlines from the inside. Put
the skins on,
and used a Stanley stud finder to 'read' the location of the wires through
the skins and
ribs/spars. I found, if I did this carefully I could get accuracy to +/-
1/32".
A couple of caveats about this method: I marked a centerline on the stud
finder, across
the top of the plastic case, connecting the reference notches to help
determine when
it's reading 'top dead center'. You have to be careful to make sure you're
getting the
stud finder exactly centered.
(this is probably obvious but) make sure the wire is carefully taped to the
centers of
the skeleton components.
I cut the wires, taped and marked the rivet lines using this method last
night for one side
of the horiz stab in about 15 minutes.
Hope this helps someone...
Brad Hamlin
RV4 ready to skin horiz stab
Walpole MA
bhamlin1(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
<951026223308_90711571(at)mail06.mail.aol.com>
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
Cleaveland (and, perhaps, Avery) sells a female dimpling die with a reduced
diameter. It works well in places where there is minimal clearance. Don't
try forcing standard size dies into situations where they're cramped;
you'll break the male die. You can find Cleaveland's phone number in Van's
Accessories Catalogue.
Jack Abell
RV-6A Rudder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re:Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
>Dick:
>
>I had the same problem. I was going to machine countersink, but, due to
>the arguments on this list, I chose the dimple route for both my HS and
>VS. In hindsight I MUCH prefer dimpling. It is much stronger and much easier
>(to do right). I was able to use the squeezer and the ground female die on
>some holes, but not all of them.
>
>What I did was get the vice-grip dimpler from Avery and ground the female
>side. There weren't any holes that I couldn't dimple. I also purchased the
>$5 pop-dimple die from Air Tool Supply and the quality of the dimple was
>unacceptable, so I never use it. Maybe the one from Avery is much better, but
>the one from ATS was so bad it left me a bad taste for pop dimplers.
>
I should mention that I ordered about 4 dimpler dies from ATS,and only 1 was
good with the rest of various finish. I do have to agree that they are of
differing quality. And work marginally well on thin skins only < 20thou.
But if you need some flexability they will work,but for the price you pay
you have to be careful.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re:Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
>Maybe the one from Avery is much better, but
>the one from ATS was so bad it left me a bad taste for pop dimplers.
>
>
DON'T BUY ANYTHING FROM ATS. THEIR TOOL QUALITY IS THE WORST I'VE EVER
SEEN.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
Note Cleaveland now has an 800 number: 800-368-1822
Carl Weston
RV-6 23876 finishing up tail kit
> Cleaveland (and, perhaps, Avery) sells a female dimpling die with a reduced
> diameter. It works well in places where there is minimal clearance. Don't
> try forcing standard size dies into situations where they're cramped;
> you'll break the male die. You can find Cleaveland's phone number in Van's
> Accessories Catalogue.
>
> Jack Abell
> RV-6A Rudder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | RV6 Tail Builders |
Interesting..... I ordered my wings on August 3 and ordered the spar and BAC
kit. Haven't seen it yet.
BF Gibbons (waiting.......)
Hey guys, here's some information you might find helpful when ordering your
wing kit (no fast build options).
Date Order Faxed: August 2
Date Order Shipped: October 18
Date Order Received in Sparta, IL October 26
Shipping cost $112.65
Wings shipped in two wooden crates approximately 200 lbs each.
Spar Crate: 10"x8"x14.5'
Other Crate: 8"x31"x8'
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Spar Flange Strips |
I was tapering my spar flange strips with a new Sears Carbide tipped blade
designed to cut aluminum and after a few cuts the blade began to throw teeth.
I lost 11 teeth out the the blade which made it unusable. Is this a problem
with my sawing technique or is the Sears blade poor quality
Chet Razer
CRazer2(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
One last word. I have lived by the motto of csk only when too thick to
dimple. I also have broken that rule on occasion. One time was when there
was a rivet in the fues frame in very thin material that was never going to
be dimpled. It also was never going to be driven to any standard I have ever
seen. I.E., one of those we don't like to admit drilling. I used my csk to
ruin the hole in the frame, and installed a rivet, and managed to distort it
slightly. I just hope the glue doesn't fail and the rivet fall out.
Bruce Patton
Fues in Jig, half full of rivets
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino) |
| Subject: | Re: RV crash at Longmont CO |
>I just heard that an RV-4 spun in and burned last Saturday afternoon at the
>airport at Longmont CO. The pilot was killed, no passengers. Witnesses
>stated the aircraft had smoke coming from it as it spun into the ground next
>to the runway. No word yet as to who was the pilot. The number on the
>aircraft seems to be N611R from a newspaper article a friend sent me.
>
>John Ammeter
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
>
>N611R is a twin-engine Beech E-90, registered to City Markets Inc.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: speed brakes |
Here is the info from the brochure:
Precise Flight Inc.
Available soon: Speedbrakes for your RV-3,4,6 or 6A
503-382-8684
1-800-547-2558
fax 503-338-1105
---------------------
RV-4 Airspeed comparison, level flight
rpm speed without airbrakes speed with airbrakes
2100 110 kts 100 kts
2300 120 kts 106 kts
2450 130 kts 118 kts
---------------------
Descent Rate
100 kts, 1255 rpm, 500fpm without airbrakes, 950 fpm with airbrakes
110 " 1975 " 500 " " " 1050 " " "
120 " 2225 " 500 " " " 1100 " " "
----------------------
Precise Flight Inc.
63120 Powell Butte Rd.
Bend, OR
97701
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | twg(at)blink.ho.att.com (Tom Goeddel(x5278)) |
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - need help |
>> So here I am, dimpled skin, and I can't center the female side of the
>> dimple set on the holes in the VS rear spar. If I were able to file away
>> part of the female side of the set, it would probably fit, but even if I did
>> that, how would I squeeze it?? Any suggestions??
>>
>> I recall seeing/reading about a vise grip with a dimple set welded to the
>> end, will that work??
There are several options for dealing with holes a little too close to the
web for dimpling with "normal" dimpling tools. Someone already mentioned
the dies for use with a rivet puller - I don't have any experience with
those but I do have the vise grips with the dies welded to the jaws from
Avery. I carefully ground down the dies flat on the end
a bit and can now get to just about anything as long as it's not too far
from an edge. The only down side is that the amount of pressure required
to squeeze them in heavier material is high - not much leverage.
With a lot of holes, your hands can get pretty sore.
For another option, Cleveland Tools (maybe Avery, too - I can't recall)
sells some undersized female dimple dies. One is round, but much smaller
diameter, and the other has a flat ground on one side. I have the
round one, and it has worked for some applications. Your squeezer yoke
tends to be the limiting factor here. I know some who have ground down
their yokes a bit - I couldn't bring myself to do that; modifying
the vise grip squeezer seemed more palatable to me for some reason...
Tom Goeddel
RV-6a (forever in progress)
t.goeddel(at)att.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Verticle Stab - Ooops - how about this? |
How about using NAS1097 (or Van's "oops" rivets) in a -4 size? Dimple the
skin, c/s the spar (for -3 size), assemble, cleco, and drill to #30, and
rivet using the different rivet. I doubt that these would pull out. I seem to
recall that the rivets are stressed in shear anyway, not tension.
check 6
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | "New" On-Line Magazine |
Hi Folks,
Thought some of you might be interested in this.
It is probably old hat to many of you, but I just heard about it.
There is an 'On-Line Magazine' like service all about aviation that
is available for subscription free. (With all our building costs,
the price is certainly right).
If you want to check it out, Web brouse to
http://www.avweb.com
They'll let you look at a few things as a non-subscriber, but you can
sign up on the spot to try it out. Again, it costs nothing, and they
make the statement that they will share your user info with NO ONE.
Happy building and flying!
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
I had a 486DX-50 IBM compatable computer with about 600 Megs of data and
programs. I installed Windows 95 on my computer and had nothing but trouble.
To date I have spent over 14 hours of phone time with Microsoft porduct
support and have changed virtually everything in my computer except the hard
drive that contains my data files and I am still having problems. I have had
to reinstall almost all of my programs and still some of them don't work.
DOS programs seem to have the most problems. The computer technicians that
changed my hardware say that the only systems that don't have problems are
new systems that don't have any other software installed on them except
Windows 95 to start with. My advice to anyone considering Windows 95 is to
wait until one or two more versions come out that fix all of the bugs that
have plaged me. You will save yourself a lot of grief.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
Working on finishing kit
________________________________________________________________________________
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 02:54:41 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:57:29 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 04:04:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 02:54:42 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 02:54:41 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:57:29 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 06:04:39 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 04:04:29 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 04:04:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 02:54:42 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 02:54:41 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:57:29 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
Hi Folks,
Sounds like Jim Cone really has a horror story regarding Windows 95. I
wonder if it has to do with the way his system was configured or that,
perhaps, he runs a number of DOS programs on his system.
The reason I say that is I bought, in August, a new PC with Windows for
Workgroups on it. It is a Packard Bell 100 MHz Pentium with 16 MB RAM,
1.275 GB HD, Quad speed CD-ROM and 14.4 modem. I installed Windows 95
and have not had one ounce of problems since then. And I love it. The
Windows 95 Explorer program blows the sox off the File Manager in what
you can do and how you do it. Most other stuff is slicker and faster.
So, perhaps if you have a lot of DOS stuff, it might make sense to
wait, but if you have a relatively new machine with only Windows stuff
on it, it seems to work great. And whether you get it now or wait a
couple of releases, I suspect you'll love it. (Of course, I bet Jim is
gritting his teeth about now -- sorry you had so many problems, Jim --
and keep that great newsletter of yours coming to me!)
Happy building and flying!
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 07:04:11 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 06:04:39 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 06:04:39 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 04:04:29 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 04:04:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 02:54:42 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 02:54:41 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:57:29 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 08:04:27 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 07:04:12 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 07:04:11 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 06:04:39 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 06:04:39 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 04:04:29 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 04:04:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 02:54:42 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 02:54:41 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:57:29 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <MAILER-DAEMON(at)ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> |
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 09:20:42 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 08:04:28 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 08:04:27 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 07:04:12 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 07:04:11 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 06:04:39 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 06:04:39 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 04:04:29 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 04:04:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 02:54:42 EST
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 02:54:41 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:57:29 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:57:28 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 01:20:03 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sun Oct 29 01:20:03 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: Mail Router (smail 2.9 dl,da,fa,tu,po,qf,lo,dbm 03/23/95 43) <ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!MAILER-DAEMON(at)matronics.com>
Date: 29 Oct 95 00:20:20 EDT
Subject: RV-List: Returned mail
Your mail could not be delivered because of the following reason:
----- Transcript of session follows -----
Executing: /usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer -B -C -u ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM!matronics.com!rv-list
ccsdsmtp jclark@ccsdsmtp
smtpqer: Binary contents cannot be sent via SMTP
server "/usr/lib/mail/surrcmd/smtpqer" failed - unknown mailer error 1
----- Unsent message follows -----
>From rv-list Sat Oct 28 23:45:36 0400 1995 remote from matronics.com
From: gate.net!mbaker(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Windows 95
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
>
> This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
> the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
Agreed. But I've been using Win95 since the March beta release on
this machine with very few problems. The ONLY software I've had problems
with was the free stuff that AST sent me to manage phone messages on this
system.
I pitched it and lived happily ever after.
Your mileage may vary. It is much faster than Windoze and I love it.
I encourage anyone ot give it a try. It is only $80 and is easily removed
if you have problems.
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulried(at)Interpath.com |
| Subject: | RV Building Seminars |
I am just at the point of ordering the empennage for my RV-6 and would like to
get a little bit
of practice in sheet metal building before I dig in. I understand that Van's offers
a week long
builders course and John Monnet offers a weekend course. I would be interested
in opinions from
anyone who has attended either course on there value.
Does anyone know off hand the schedule for Vans seminars?
Thanks
Paul Riedlinger
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
Ok folks, this will be sheetmetal 101...
I have now completed my rear HS spar and it looks good. That was not how it
started out though. To cut to the chase, I found it necessary to trim most of
the rivets to the proper length per Avery's little guage. That caused for
inconsistant length and as you all know , less than consistant shop heads
after riveting. I used the sanding belt to shorten most of them and yes you
can burn your fingers on those little fellows after you have removed some of
the metal. This left me with rivet ends that were always on a slant no matter
how hard I try to hold them straight with the pliers. I WANT TO KNOW, what do
some of you soon to be RV pilots do to easily get the volumes of rivets the
right and square length????
Do I need to spend more money for one of those fancy bench mounted rivet
cutters or do the plier model work well enough?
Are there some little secrets that have been passed down from some hillside
monastery that I, and I'm sure others, need to know?
Sometimes the little things can cause the most problems...
Kevin & Trudy Williams
RV-6A #24438 EMP
PS. I squeezed all of the rivets in the rear HS spar and man was I tired.
After spending some time "cleaning up" a few rivets that were not perfect, I
discovered two things:
1) My wife is very good at bucking rivets
2) My 3X rivet gun is a better way to have put the HS together.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
Is everyone getting these 'Returned Mail' e-mails? So far, I've got about
12 or 15 of them. Whoever is sending them, I give up, it is like the
Chinese water torture. One or two are tolerable, 15 are not.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Building Seminars |
You wrote:
>
>I am just at the point of ordering the empennage for my RV-6 and would
like to get a little bit
>of practice in sheet metal building before I dig in. I understand
that Van's offers a week long
>builders course and John Monnet offers a weekend course. I would be
interested in opinions from
>anyone who has attended either course on there value.
>
>Does anyone know off hand the schedule for Vans seminars?
>
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Paul Riedlinger
>RV-6
>
>
I attended a week-end sheet metal course put on by Alexander Aeroplane
which was pretty good. They offer them is various locations, but most
often near their hdqtrs outside Atlanta. I think the course has
improved also.
Alexander also offers a practice kit in which you build a small airfoil
using various kinds of rivets through ribs and skins that are similar
to the horiz stab of Vans. Alexander's phone # is 800-831-2949.
Don't know much about John Monnet's workshop or Van's, but have heard
from this group that Van's is fantastic.
Hope this helps,
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Spar Flange Strips |
>I was tapering my spar flange strips with a new Sears Carbide tipped blade
>designed to cut aluminum and after a few cuts the blade began to throw
teeth.
> I lost 11 teeth out the the blade which made it unusable. Is this a
problem
>with my sawing technique or is the Sears blade poor quality
>
>Chet Razer
>CRazer2(at)aol.com
Chet,
I remember reading somewhere that a "Hollow Ground Planer" blade does a good
job on cutting AL. I bought one at Home Depot for about $19, (Vermont
American, "Krome King Steel"). I have not used it yet, so I can't give you a
user report.
As to why the teeth came off your carbide blade, other than poor quality,
could you have reversed the blade ?? This would cause the metal to hit the
back side of the teeth and maybe knock them off. In any case, I'm sure Sears
will replace your defective blade.
Good Luck,
Dick Slavens waiting for RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | LHaines794(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
I didn't have to trim any rivets on my HS spar. Are you sure you used the
right ones?
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Returned Mail |
Item Subject: RV-List: Returned Mail
Yep,
I have the same problem. 49 e-mails this morning, 15 - 17 were 'Returned
Mail' e-mails.
Is this a problem with our rv-list or some individuals machine??
Mike Parkinson
RV-6
waiting on tail feathers
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RV-List: Returned Mail
HP-Australia,unixgw1
Date: 30/10/95 9:43 AM
Is everyone getting these 'Returned Mail' e-mails? So far, I've got about
12 or 15 of them. Whoever is sending them, I give up, it is like the
Chinese water torture. One or two are tolerable, 15 are not.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | russ(at)maui.net (Russ Werner) |
| Subject: | Re: Returned Mail |
You aren't the only one getting these messages. Probably a problem with the
servers forwarding program.
>Is everyone getting these 'Returned Mail' e-mails? So far, I've got about
>12 or 15 of them. Whoever is sending them, I give up, it is like the
>Chinese water torture. One or two are tolerable, 15 are not.
>John Ammeter
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: Returned Mail |
>--------------
>You aren't the only one getting these messages. Probably a problem with the
>servers forwarding program.
>
>>Is everyone getting these 'Returned Mail' e-mails? So far, I've got about
>>12 or 15 of them. Whoever is sending them, I give up, it is like the
>>Chinese water torture. One or two are tolerable, 15 are not.
>>John Ammeter
>>RV-6 N16JA
>>Flying 5 years
>--------------
RV-Listers -
One of the rv-list subscriber's email address went bonkers and started sending
those bounce messages back to the whole list. I caught it this morning and
removed the subscriber from the list. Sorry. Sometimes there's just no
accounting for mailers...
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
Kevin & Trudy,
The Avery guages I used were the little pieces of angled aluminum of
different colors which show you the MINIMUM height and width of the
shop head (after setting, of course).
I don't think you need to trim any rivets before you set them. The
only problem I can think of would be if the rivets bend over to the
side during the setting process and this shouldn't happen. Just try to
keep the squeezer perpendicular to the surface being riveted with the
rivet in the middle of the set.
I am certainly not one of the most experienced builders around this
list. Maybe one of the others can give you the additional help from on
high you are looking for.
Keep the faith. I suspect we all went through a similar situation.
Hope this helps.
Bill Costello
Chicago
RV-6 on right elevator
bcos(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mkerzie(at)qnet.com (Mark G. Kerzie) |
| Subject: | Re: Mail Probs .. |
Looks to me like this got tied up during the Windows95 discussion. Did
"somebody" try and
attach a "binary" Windows95 bitmap to their note to the list?
>You aren't the only one getting these messages. Probably a problem with the
>servers forwarding program.
>
>>Is everyone getting these 'Returned Mail' e-mails? So far, I've got about
>>12 or 15 of them. Whoever is sending them, I give up, it is like the
>>Chinese water torture. One or two are tolerable, 15 are not.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com> |
At the risk of starting YET ANOTHER :-) priming discussion, I'm interested in
hearing about the direct experience of 'Listers with the Endura primer EP-2C.
I've got a local source of supply that swears by it! Your thoughts are
appreciated...thanx...
Terry in Calgary
S/N 24414
"Empennage"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | alanw(at)netspace.net.au (Alan Williams) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
Kevin & Trudy
The rivet length shown on the plan (AD4-7 I think) worked out fine for me, I
guess you are checking them with the little golden gauge from Averys - this
will measure them as slightly over the minimum length which is quite OK.
I found the Averys 'Hand Riveting and Dimpling Tool' (part# 01001) works
just great setting spar rivets, just use a 2# hammer on the AD4 rivets and a
4# hammer for the AD6 (wing main spar).
To trim rivets I use the 'Economy model' rivet cutter (again from Averys -
yes I am a Averys Groupie) and to clean the ends up I've made up a little
rivet holder from a small piece of aluminium plate (approx 3" x 2" x 1/4")
with #12, #30, & #40 holes drilled through. This holds the rivets square
and dissipates the heat generated by the sanding disk.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Alan Williams
Melbourne, Australia
RV6A - Just finished wing spars.
>
>I have now completed my rear HS spar and it looks good. That was not how it
>started out though. To cut to the chase, I found it necessary to trim most of
>the rivets to the proper length per Avery's little guage. That caused for
>inconsistant length and as you all know , less than consistant shop heads
>after riveting. I used the sanding belt to shorten most of them and yes you
>can burn your fingers on those little fellows after you have removed some of
>the metal. This left me with rivet ends that were always on a slant no matter
>how hard I try to hold them straight with the pliers. I WANT TO KNOW, what do
>some of you soon to be RV pilots do to easily get the volumes of rivets the
>right and square length????
>
>Do I need to spend more money for one of those fancy bench mounted rivet
>cutters or do the plier model work well enough?
>
>Are there some little secrets that have been passed down from some hillside
>monastery that I, and I'm sure others, need to know?
>
>Sometimes the little things can cause the most problems...
>
>Kevin & Trudy Williams
>RV-6A #24438 EMP
>
>PS. I squeezed all of the rivets in the rear HS spar and man was I tired.
>After spending some time "cleaning up" a few rivets that were not perfect, I
>discovered two things:
> 1) My wife is very good at bucking rivets
> 2) My 3X rivet gun is a better way to have put the HS together.
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Returned Mail |
I've received 62 so far.
- Alan
On Sun, 29 Oct 1995, John Ammeter wrote:
> Is everyone getting these 'Returned Mail' e-mails? So far, I've got about
> 12 or 15 of them. Whoever is sending them, I give up, it is like the
> Chinese water torture. One or two are tolerable, 15 are not.
> John Ammeter
> RV-6 N16JA
> Flying 5 years
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV Building Semi... |
Paul : Becki and I give a weekend course for RV builders, we have them once
a month students permiting. In the class you will learn all the basic skills
needed to get you started and even build a small elevator as as class
project. for more info write or call (301)293-1505 ..... George Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dyer(at)edlmail.jsc.nasa.gov (Terry Dyer) |
>This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
>the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
>I had a 486DX-50 IBM compatable computer with about 600 Megs of data and
>programs. I installed Windows 95 on my computer and had nothing but trouble.
> To date I have spent over 14 hours of phone time with Microsoft porduct
>support and have changed virtually everything in my computer except the hard
>drive that contains my data files and I am still having problems. I have had
>to reinstall almost all of my programs and still some of them don't work.
> DOS programs seem to have the most problems. The computer technicians that
>changed my hardware say that the only systems that don't have problems are
>new systems that don't have any other software installed on them except
>Windows 95 to start with. My advice to anyone considering Windows 95 is to
>wait until one or two more versions come out that fix all of the bugs that
>have plaged me. You will save yourself a lot of grief.
>
>Jim Cone
>jamescone(at)aol.com
>Working on finishing kit
>
>
I have a 486dx 33Mhz machine and I have had no problems. In fact all network
applications such as FTP Netscape and Eudora run alot faster and never hang
up. Win 95 has its own 32 bit socket and works alot better then trumput
windsock.
It sounds like your IBM compatible computer may not be so compatable!
Terry Dyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Building Seminars |
George and Becki are now offering a beginning metal working kit
consisting of our tools video and the aluminum on which to practice and
build the control surface shown in the video. The whole kit is $45.
Separately, the tape is $16 and the aluminum is $30. Shipping is $5. The
video reviews the tools you will need to build an RV, shows how they are
used and shows construction of a section of a control surface. Call or
write us if we can help. (301) 293-1505 after 5 pm eastern
2347 Michael Road
Myersville, MD 21773
Becki Orndorff
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
kevin-
I've built two RV-4 HS's and used only standard rivet lengths; can't
speak directly for the 6 but I bet it's about the same. I think your're
confusing "ideal" lengths and what is practical. I usually try to stay
a little on the long side if possible; as long as the thing doesn't fall
over your ok. I squeezed rivets up to 2.5xdiam. in length instead of the
ideal 1.5 with good success, I've also used then a little short two when
I've had to. I must admit thought I have an aversion to cutting rivets
unless its one or two; also my pneumatic squeezer is a life saver.
You need to learn what is acceptable or you'll never get throught this
project; it should be FUN! not a pain.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933 started installing stuff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: Wing Video Tapes |
Ed,
You can get a brand new, never been viewed set of wing tapes from us for
$40 plus $5 for shipping. Our address is:
2347 Michael Road
Myersville, MD 21773
Becki Orndorff
>Hi Guy's,
>Has anyone got a set of Orndorff's wing assembly video tapes for sale?
>Original's only please.
>Thanks,
>Ed Cole RV24430 Emmpenage
>ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Building Seminars |
Paul,
The best way to find out Van's class schedule is to call the factory.
You don't say where in the country you are. We offer a weekend course,
too, in Maryland. Please call if we can be of help, (301) 293-1505.
Becki Orndorff
>I am just at the point of ordering the empennage for my RV-6 and would like
to get a little bit
>of practice in sheet metal building before I dig in. I understand that
Van's offers a week long
>builders course and John Monnet offers a weekend course. I would be
interested in opinions from
>anyone who has attended either course on there value.
>
>Does anyone know off hand the schedule for Vans seminars?
>
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Paul Riedlinger
>RV-6
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: horiz stab skin question...and a tip |
On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 BHamlin1(at)aol.com wrote:
> I'm fitting the skins to my RV4 horizontal stab, and I'm having trouble
> getting the
> overhang at the rear spar to match exactly the tolerances on the blueprints
> (1.25" at the root, 1 3/16 at the tip). Are these exact dimensions, or
> minimums?
> My skins overhang 1.25" at the root, but 1 3/8 at the tips. No matter how
> many times
> I slide the skins up and down I can't seem to get the dimensions just right.
As I recall, if you slide the skins outboard until the *inboard* edges
are flush with the rib flanges and you still don't have the minimum
overhang, then that's the best you can do. Having 3/16" less
overhang than the minimum is no problem.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rivet length and how they got that long.....PART II |
Rule #1 Never send out a request for help unless you wish to hear from MANY
people. (I am very THANKFUL for the response)
Rule #2 Never quickly slap your thoughts down on "pixels" and send out a
e-mail with out being VERY specific about your problem.
So I will try to be more specific.
I was using the Avery gauge to judge the correct rivet length. (little gold
block) In most cases it showed that the rivet was alittle too long. I had
been having some problems (before checking the length) with a few of the
rivets "leaning" over so thought I would use this tool to check my rivet
length. From that I determined that if I used my belt sander to shorten them
just a 16th or so all would be well.
Well I found that it did help but in doing so I created another problem by
producing a small slope on the unbucked end of the rivet. When squeezed with
a hand squeezer the rivets still had the tendency to "lean". (things always
run down hilI don't they) I am using a 2 1/2" yoke also.
I have since cleaned up the rivets in question and found that using my 3X
rivet gun does a much better job with very consistant results. I've been
using the small rivet gauge, with the hole in it, for checking the
correctness of the shop head also.
Most of those that e-mailed me back wrote that they didn't have to cut any of
there rivets. I will admit that when I use an uncut rivet the shop head has a
tendency to lean over no matter what method is used to set it. It seems to be
just too much rivet to buck.I guess you have to be very careful. (it sure
would have been nice to go to one of those wokshops first...)
Anyway that has been my plight. As an added note I wish to make it clear that
I never suggested that Avery's little gauge caused my situation here. I am
the sole means to my end :>)
Being an old Ham Radio Operator I am amazed how easy it is to hear from so
many of you. Thanks specially to Alan Williams from Melbourne, Australia!
Kevin &Trudy Williams
RV-6A #24438 EMP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they g |
As long as the shop head is not bending over when you set the rivet,
it is O.K. to use a rivet that is slightly longer than the index mark
on the Avery guage. The main concern is to get the shop head 1/2d
high and 1 1/2d wide. Get an 1/8 pound of the "half-length rivets"
from Aircraft Spruce. By that I mean the AN426AD3-4.5 and AN426AD3-5.
5 The kits from Van's come with the AN426AD3-3.5 I am well into
my finishing kit and have found the above rivets to come in handy.
Along the line of rivets, the "cheater" rivet kit from Avery is also
well worth the investment. The 1/8 shank with 3/32 head works well
when you slightly enlarge a hole when drilling out a 3/32 rivet and
have to go to the next size rivet. The small head, 3/32 shank rivets
makes putting platenuts in thin material a pleasure.
Keep on building;
Scott (N506RV- Reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
On Sun, 29 Oct 1995 Kev711(at)aol.com wrote:
> To cut to the chase, I found it necessary to trim most of
> the rivets to the proper length per Avery's little guage.
That guage shows the *minimum* length. The spec allows rivets to
be up to 1/16th inch longer than that. Anything more than that and you
should use the next size shorter rivet.
WHen you say "less than sinsistant shop heads", I'll assume that you mean
the diameter and height of the shop heads are not all the same. As long
as they are within spec, don't even think twice about it.
If you need to shorten a rivet, use a rivet cutter. Avery sells them.
> PS. I squeezed all of the rivets in the rear HS spar and man was I tired.
The two best tools for riveting the HS rear spar are:
1. The Avery C-frame
2. Pneumatic rivet squeezer
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | <Jim=Preston%10AF%AFRESEM(at)wrb.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 303FS, Whiteman AFB, MO, |
DSN 975-3620 or 3489)
| Subject: | RV Building Seminars |
charset=US-ASCII
>I am just at the point of ordering the empennage for my RV-6 and would like
>to get a little bit of practice in sheet metal building before I dig in. I
>understand that Van's offers a week long builders course and John Monnet
>offers a weekend course. I would be interested in opinions from anyone who
>has attended either course on there value.
>Paul Riedlinger
>RV-6
Paul,
I attended John Monnet's course at SkyStruck in Oshkosh last July. I
wholeheartedly recommend it if you're having trouble convincing yourself
you're capable of sheetmetal work (like I was.) The class was taught by John
and Ken Scott (of Van's Aircraft) and covered a lot of material, but was very
well presented and organized. I asked Ken what he thought of me taking Van's
course after this one, and he said, "This class has everything Van's has,
except for the chance to fly one of the airplanes and tour the factory.
There's no reason to do both."
He was right; I was absolutely clueless when I arrived. After leaving, I
felt comfortable with the thought of doing this whole thing. We made several
projects, including the sample flight control that they do at Van's. While
the quality of my work left something to be desired, I felt that, with
practice, I'd do fine. It was a real confidence booster. John and Betty
Monnet made our class feel very welcome; they're both great people. Ken is a
great teacher and has great stories about building his own -6. He convinces
you that if he can do it, anyone can.
I haven't been able to convince the wife that I should do this yet, but
when I can, I don't have any doubts (any BIG doubts, anyway) that I can do
this. If you'd like to discuss this further, my number is 816-687-2968
between 8:00 and 4:30 Central.
Jim
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Mike Fredette~ <mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com> |
| Subject: | RV4 kit for sale |
I started out with a complete kit for sale and sold the
Fuse and Finish kits to a fellow lister in Illinois. Picked them up Wed in fact,
but I
still have the Wing and Empennage kits for sale. These are actually where
most of the options were. I pulled my receipts and have broken out all
the costs here. These kits were delivered in Feb of 95.
Empennage kit............................$795.00
Electric Elevator Trim...................$162.00
.020 control surface skins................$43.00
---------------------------------------------------------
Total Empennage costs...................$1000.00
Wing Kit................................$3265.00
Phlogiston Spars.........................$765.00
BAC Fast Build Kit Components...........$1495.00
BAC Dlx Fast Build Assy.................$2095.00
1 Pc Top wing skins......................$104.00
Electric Aileron Trim....................$172.00
(2)BAC Landing Light Kits................$240.00
BAC skin/rib drilling templates...........$70.00
--------------------------------------------------------
Total Wing Costs........................$8206.00
Total costs for both....................$9206.00
This is what it would cost today as well since there haven't been any price
increases during the year but Van's usually does do an increase of a few percent
each
Jan. These also don't reflect crating/shipping charges, which, for the Fast Build
Assy
include shipping from Van's to BAC in Calif and then back to my house, another
several
hundred bucks. Anyway, I'll sell the whole thing for $6000.00. The Horizontal and
Vertical
stabs are both finished, the control surfaces are unstarted.
The wings are also unstarted, and with the BAC deluxe fast build
assembly option with rib/skin templates, you should save a solid 1 to 1 1/2 years
of building
time. With this option, and jigs that
are ready to go, you can have each wing skeleton assembled and ready to skin
in about 8 hours. The entire skeleton as well as both control surfaces have
been all drilled out and assembled in Steve's hard tooling. Plus he builds all
the little pieces that take a long time like pushrods, bellcranks, flap brackets,
control surface stiffeners, and he anodizes or cad plates everything.
Anyway, let me know if you're interested, remember, Van's is
exploring an "RV4B" that would allow the use of the 4 wings and tail with the
8 style fuselage; something to consider, although it's not like getting a 4 kit
is
in any way "settling" for second best. It's still a hell of a plane.
Replies to me directly, not the list at mfredett(at)sedona.intel.com Ph (602)554-7462
days
460-5457 eves.
Rgds
Mike Fredette
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Tools (was rivet length) |
Dan writes:
>unless its one or two; also my pneumatic squeezer is a life saver.
>You need to learn what is acceptable or you'll never get throught this
>project; it should be FUN! not a pain.
Hello all,
I have made the commitment to myself to get started on a RV-8 when the
empenage kit becomes available. I'm getting ready and I'm in the process of
getting my tools. Two questions for now:
Should I buy a pneumatic squeezer instead of the Avery hand squeezer or will I
need a hand squeezer anyway?
What are the advantages of a table mounted drill press on a cart instead of a
floor mounted drill press, and if I go with a floor mounted unit will I have
to bolt it to the floor for stability or can I move it around the room?
Steve
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long.....PART |
II
>block) In most cases it showed that the rivet was alittle too long. I had
>been having some problems (before checking the length) with a few of the
>rivets "leaning" over so thought I would use this tool to check my rivet
>length. From that I determined that if I used my belt sander to shorten them
>just a 16th or so all would be well.
When I first started the kit, I was having the same problem with rivets
leaning over. I found two major contributors:
1. All tools must be perpendicular in all planes to the rivet.
Bucking bar/ rivet gun/ squeezer
2. Hole must be drilled perpendicular in all planes to material
riveting. If this isn't done it cocks the rivet slightly and the head walks
to one side. Or, if the two materials shift and the holes aren't quite
lined up, the rivet will be tilted again.
As far as rivet length, it didn't seem to be a factor in quality of shop
head, but the longer the rivet, the more care that needs to be taken in the
points mentioned above. There are other factors that create problems like
pressure setting for rivet gun, weight of bucking bar and how firm the
pressure of bucking bar/rivet gun.
I have found the best rivets are made with the big yellow C tool from Avery.
With this tool, every rivet comes out perfect unless the rivet is tilted
really bad.
Anyway, thats my $00.02 worth
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
> Misc stuff regarding Windows 95
My Power Mac 7200 has its built-in MacOS and I've never in all my 9 years
using macs had major problems with the windows. :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist. Please don't reply to the rv-list - flame me
personally)
Seriuosly though. I talk computers all day. Can we get back to RV discussions.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
>--------------
>> Misc stuff regarding Windows 95
>
>My Power Mac 7200 has its built-in MacOS and I've never in all my 9 years
>using macs had major problems with the windows. :-)
>(Sorry, I couldn't resist. Please don't reply to the rv-list - flame me
>personally)
>
>Seriuosly though. I talk computers all day. Can we get back to RV discussions.
>
>Chris Krieg
>
>--------------
Oh God Chris,
You went from preaching and gone to medling... :-)
My 100 Mhz Pentium Windows 95 system runs great and will blow the doors off
of *any* Mac system past or present. Face it, Apple is dead... ;-)
Personally, I havn't had hardly any problems with Windows 95 - and I have
been running beta gens since February. The release version is extremely
stable. I initially installed Windows 95 over 3.1 and had problems. A clean
install is definately a must - especially if you have a lot (or any) weird
software that Windows now supports like TCP/IP of FAX software.
I was reading on the Apple WEB page the other day "Reasons why a mac is
better than a PC with Windows 95". One on the top reasons was that a
Power mac 8500 was a lot faster than the Pentium/95 combination. That is
just an out an out lie. Now maybe if you took the Apple OS off and put
something else on it...
Anyway, sorry, I just *had* to day *something*!
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long.....PART II |
I was using a US industrial hand rivet squeezer for a while and found that a
lot of my
rivets were getting pushed over. Finally showed it to a friend of mine who
showed me
how there was a lot of 'slop' in the C yoke and the plunger (the dies were
just a little
loose, and this small amount of play made a big difference). Then he showed
me his
Avery squeezer, and how little play it had. I recently bit the bullet and
bought the
Avery squeezer. What a difference! Almost all my rivets now come out really
well.
I thought I had learned this lesson, but the quality tools REALLY make a big
difference.
Anyone want a slightly used US Industrial squeezer for cheap?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Tools (was rivet length) |
I do not own a hand squeezer; my pneumatic works everywhere I want or
I buck them.
I have a floor drill press mounted to a piece of plywood and move it
around in my shop; mostly to get it out of the way when I need to.
Dan
On 30 Oct 1995, Johnson, Steve wrote:
> Dan writes:
>
> >unless its one or two; also my pneumatic squeezer is a life saver.
> >You need to learn what is acceptable or you'll never get throught this
> >project; it should be FUN! not a pain.
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have made the commitment to myself to get started on a RV-8 when the
> empenage kit becomes available. I'm getting ready and I'm in the process of
> getting my tools. Two questions for now:
>
> Should I buy a pneumatic squeezer instead of the Avery hand squeezer or will
I
> need a hand squeezer anyway?
>
> What are the advantages of a table mounted drill press on a cart instead of a
> floor mounted drill press, and if I go with a floor mounted unit will I have
> to bolt it to the floor for stability or can I move it around the room?
>
> Steve
> spjohnson(at)mmm.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rick Solana <102131.2407(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: re. Rivet length and how they got that long.....PART II |
I can totally relate to your riveting problems. When I started, it seemed like
nothing I did would make rivets not lean over. After much riveting, I can say
that I have learned that length is critical (too long will lean over) but that
it is not necessary to be that precise on the length. You just need to have
"enough" for a good shop head, but not "too much". I hardly ever have to cut
rivets.
I tend to avoid squeezing when I am working with 1/8 inch rivets. Bucking
works much better for me. The 3/32 rivets squeeze down beautifully (just
develop an eye for holding your squeezer perpendicular to the material).
Rick Solana, RV-6a
wings almost finished
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Tools (was rivet length) |
>Should I buy a pneumatic squeezer instead of the Avery hand squeezer or will I
>need a hand squeezer anyway?
Haven't used the pneumatic, but if you buy the squeezer, buy a deep throat
head!, you can do most of the stuff you need with the deep throat but not
the smaller one. Also, I bought the really small one for riveting in tight
spots.
>What are the advantages of a table mounted drill press on a cart instead of a
>floor mounted drill press, and if I go with a floor mounted unit will I have
>to bolt it to the floor for stability or can I move it around the room?
I have a full size floor model, but in all honesty, I don't use the drill
press for much except for slow mode when drilling the big lightening holes.
For me the band saw is used 10X as much. In my opinion, I wouldn't spend a
lot of money on a drill press unless you have a lot of other uses for it. I
only speak from experience up to and including the wings, so maybe the
fuselage and finishing kit have a much bigger use of the press.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
the vacuum pump on my 0320 has two ports, one labeled IN and one OUT.
Can anyone tell me which goes to the regulator and what do I do with
the other one? do I install a filter on it? Please if you know I'd
appreciated help; but please no referrals to Tony B's book or phone
numbers; thanks.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933 first time I've had a vacuum system!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long.....PART II |
> [....]
>
> I had
> been having some problems (before checking the length) with a few of the
> rivets "leaning" over so thought I would use this tool to check my rivet
> length.
>
> [....]
>
> When squeezed with
> a hand squeezer the rivets still had the tendency to "lean". (things always
> run down hilI don't they) I am using a 2 1/2" yoke also.
There's your problem. Several people (myself included) have discovered
that it's tough to keep from bending over rivets, especially 1/8" ones,
using the Tatco 2 1/2" and larger yokes. Let this be a warning to any
"wannabee" builders who haven't gotten their tools yet: get the 1 1/2"
as your primary squeezer yoke. Better yet, get the Avery squeezer, the one
that uses pneumatic squeezer yokes, as those yokes seem to be a bit more
substantial.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Tools (was rivet length) |
On 30 Oct 1995, Johnson, Steve wrote:
> Should I buy a pneumatic squeezer instead of the Avery hand squeezer or will
I
> need a hand squeezer anyway?
You will need the hand squeezer anyway. Even though I have a pneumatic
squeezer, I usually set 3/32 rivets with my hand squeezer. 3/32 rivets
are easy to squeeze with the hand squeezer.
If you plan on getting a pneumatic squeezer, then be sure that your hand
squeezer is the one that Avery makes. That way the yokes you buy can be
used in both.
> What are the advantages of a table mounted drill press on a cart instead of a
> floor mounted drill press, and if I go with a floor mounted unit will I have
> to bolt it to the floor for stability or can I move it around the room?
You won't have to bolt the floor-mount drill press to the floor, but on
the other hand, they are heavy enough you don't want to be moving them
around very often.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: horiz stab skin question...and a tip (fwd) |
Some comments on the HS skin overhang.
I think Dave Barnhart's suggestion is good. You don't want/need extra overhang
at the root rib area as this will interfer with the fuselage skin. You may
have to file some of this back when you go to fit it to the fuselage.
A little overhang in this area is OK as you can always file it.
I also recall that on the overhang at the rear of the HS, I had to file the
overhang back some as it rubbed on the elevator. Therefore if it is a little
less than the plans call for it may be OK.
If you want, I can measure mine. I have the HS on the fuselage now
to finish the detail on the fiberglass fairing that fairs the HS/VS to the
fuselage.
Herman, RV4 ready to paint
> From root Mon Oct 30 10:31:49 1995
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 06:44:47 -0800 (PST)
> From: "David A. Barnhart" <crl.com!barnhart(at)matronics.com>
> To: BHamlin1(at)aol.com
> Cc: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: horiz stab skin question...and a tip
> In-Reply-To: <951027130930_56033193(at)emout05.mail.aol.com>
> Message-Id:
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 BHamlin1(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> > I'm fitting the skins to my RV4 horizontal stab, and I'm having trouble
> > getting the
> > overhang at the rear spar to match exactly the tolerances on the blueprints
> > (1.25" at the root, 1 3/16 at the tip). Are these exact dimensions, or
> > minimums?
> > My skins overhang 1.25" at the root, but 1 3/8 at the tips. No matter how
> > many times
> > I slide the skins up and down I can't seem to get the dimensions just right.
>
> As I recall, if you slide the skins outboard until the *inboard* edges
> are flush with the rib flanges and you still don't have the minimum
> overhang, then that's the best you can do. Having 3/16" less
> overhang than the minimum is no problem.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave Barnhart
> rv-6 sn 23744
>
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> My 100 Mhz Pentium Windows 95 system runs great and will blow the doors off
> of *any* Mac system past or present. Face it, Apple is dead... ;-)
>
>
> Matt
>
Is that a Pentium with a tail wheel or is it one of those stinkin' nose
draggers?
When you guys get tired of your toys, get a real computer (Sun-SCPARC or
HP) ;-) Or, at lease run a real OS on your PC. ;-)=)
Chris, 'UNIX snob club'.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dyer(at)edlmail.jsc.nasa.gov (Terry Dyer) |
>the vacuum pump on my 0320 has two ports, one labeled IN and one OUT.
>Can anyone tell me which goes to the regulator and what do I do with
>the other one? do I install a filter on it? Please if you know I'd
>appreciated help; but please no referrals to Tony B's book or phone
>numbers; thanks.
>
>Dan Boudro
>RV-4 #3933 first time I've had a vacuum system!
>
>
The in is the vac side of the pump and should go to the regulator. all of
the gyros should be labled in the same manner. All gyros should be piped in
series
with the filter being on the end of the chain. The outlet of the vac pump
should have an elbow that points down and should be free of obstroction.
pump in ----- regulator ----- out gyro #1 in----out gyro #2 in --filter
Terry
294RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AB320FLYER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re RV-List Tool Specifics |
On 10-21 Jeff wrote:
>Drill press... I have a floorstand model, same reason as above. It gets
>down to 500 rpm. and this seems to be ideal for most of what I have to
>drill, as well as working fine with the flywheel cutter...WITH THE PROPER
>PRECAUTIONS!!! If you have any questions about those, ask. I have
>developed a reliable method of cutting lightening holes without risking
>life, limb etc..
I have a 1/3 HP Sears drill press that has a minimum speed of 600 RPM, and
I'm interested in your tecnique for cutting lightening holes. I have been
considering buying one with slower speed capability, but if there is a safe
way to do it at higher speed, please let me know.
I tried sending this message last week but it was returned. If anyone sees a
problem in this transmission please help me out.
Joel Harding
Larkspur, CO
AB320Flyer(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com (Michael Gamble) |
What sort of problems? I have a older system. By old I mean at least 1
year+. And I have had almost zero problems with Win95. I am a consultant,
and all the computers I have had contact with, with Win95 have had zero
problems. But yet I run into messages like this all the time. Puzzling!
Mick
>This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
>the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>
>I had a 486DX-50 IBM compatable computer with about 600 Megs of data and
>programs. I installed Windows 95 on my computer and had nothing but trouble.
> To date I have spent over 14 hours of phone time with Microsoft porduct
>
>Jim Cone
>jamescone(at)aol.com
>Working on finishing kit
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________
|| Michael C. Gamble Fax: (805) 328-3860 ||
|| Happy Troll Computing Phone: (805) 328-3840 ||
|| 5329 Office Center Court Email: mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com ||
|| Suite 200 ||
|| Bakersfield, CA 93309 ||
-------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
> From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Mon Oct 30 13:58:20 1995
> X-Deleted-Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
>
> the vacuum pump on my 0320 has two ports, one labeled IN and one OUT.
> Can anyone tell me which goes to the regulator and what do I do with
> the other one? do I install a filter on it? Please if you know I'd
> appreciated help; but please no referrals to Tony B's book or phone
> numbers; thanks.
>
> Dan Boudro
> RV-4 #3933 first time I've had a vacuum system!
>
Relable the ports as vaccume (IN) and exhaust (OUT) Air is pulled
from the filter into the inst. to the regulator and then to the pump.
The regulator bleads atmospheric pressure into the vaccume line to
adjust the vaccume. There are two (sometimes three) ports on the inst
for air connections. One is for the filter connectionn (IN) one for
the vaccume connection (OUT) and the sometimes third one is for your
vaccume gauge. The life of your vaccume instruments and pump depends
on clean air at all times. Make sure you have a good filter and replace/
clean it at every AI. Some old-timers I know also clean and lube the
instruments every year. It seems to work for them.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahl(at)oslonett.no (Espen Dahl) |
| Subject: | Re: horiz stab skin question...and a tip |
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>From: dahl(at)oslonett.no (Espen Dahl)
>Subject: Re: RV-List: horiz stab skin question...and a tip
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>>
>>
>>On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 BHamlin1(at)aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'm fitting the skins to my RV4 horizontal stab, and I'm having trouble
>>> getting the
>>> overhang at the rear spar to match exactly the tolerances on the blueprints
>>> (1.25" at the root, 1 3/16 at the tip). Are these exact dimensions, or
>>> minimums?
>>> My skins overhang 1.25" at the root, but 1 3/8 at the tips. No matter how
>>> many times
>>> I slide the skins up and down I can't seem to get the dimensions just right.
>>
>>As I recall, if you slide the skins outboard until the *inboard* edges
>>are flush with the rib flanges and you still don't have the minimum
>>overhang, then that's the best you can do. Having 3/16" less
>>overhang than the minimum is no problem.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>Dave Barnhart
>>rv-6 sn 23744
>>
>>
>
>I had the same problem, and had to accept about 1/8" less overhang. It is
probably good to keep the overhang symmetrical! If its not double check your
alignments before committimg yourself...
>
>
>Best regards,
>Espen Dahl
>RV-4 s/n 2770
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Tools (was rivet length) |
The pneumatic squeezer is very worthwhile. The quality-of-result, reduced
frustration, and time saved are all worth the cost. I use it for riveting
and dimpling. I have completed the the horizontal and verticle stabs and
most of the rudder and started the right elavator for the RV6. A
significant number of holes can be reached for dimpling and riveting - I
have the 3 inch yoke.
For the rudder and elevator reinforcing ribs (28) I dimpled all the holes
(100s) in minutes by mounting the pneumatic squeezer in the bench vise by
clampling the yoke in the vise jaws between two wood blocks. This allowed
me to quickly and easily position a rib and press the 'go button." The
male die was on the piston.
I also helped a friend rivet the right wing top skins and we used the
pneumatic squeezer to rivet all the trailing edge rivets.
I have not used the hand squeezer from avery yet.
>Steve writes:
>
>I have made the commitment to myself to get started on a RV-8 when the
>empenage kit becomes available. I'm getting ready and I'm in the process of
>getting my tools. Two questions for now:
>
>Should I buy a pneumatic squeezer instead of the Avery hand squeezer or will I
>need a hand squeezer anyway?
>
>What are the advantages of a table mounted drill press on a cart instead of a
>floor mounted drill press, and if I go with a floor mounted unit will I have
>to bolt it to the floor for stability or can I move it around the room?
>
>Steve
>spjohnson(at)mmm.com
Bob Haan
Portland, OR
RV6-A Right Elevator, Wing Kit Ordered
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Don Wentz <Don_Wentz(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Matronics FUELSCAN update |
First, Greg Rainwater, can you reply to this, I have a question for you.
Now, about the FUELSCAN:
I have been flying the FUELSCAN original BETA unit for a couple months
now, over 30 hours. I have to say that, even tho there are some
'tweaks' in progress, for a first unit effort, this has been a great
piece of equipment. For a unit to be so close on the first try, having
not had an opportunity to test fly it himself first, Matt must have
really thought about it a lot.
So far the unit has been completely without breakdown, and except for
some 'stray fuel-lube' (my fault) has been very consistent and
accurate. My fill-ups seem to be very close to what the unit thinks
was used, etc.
I have learned a few things now that I have a fuel-burn sensor:
I tend to fly a little slower at low altitudes!
3 things really affect fuel burn - RPM, leaning, and altitude.
At altitudes below 6500' I have to throttle back quite a lot to get
below 9gph. I have seen as high as 14.5 gph at full throttle, 2600 rpm
at 2000 ft. About 2200 will yield 9gph at 2000'.
Once I reach altitudes around 10K, I can burn about 8gph at 2400rpm and
190mph true (this is 'corrected' as comparisons with other RVs show my
system to read about 5mph high). Loran readings seem to verify this,
although 'steady' Loran readings are tough to get. Interestingly, at high
altitudes my max fuel burn does not go up much (<1gph) even at full
throttle. I think this is again limited by the max rpm available with my
prop.
Obviously I have a 'cruise' prop, as 2600 is the max rpm I can get at any
altitude. This does reduce my climb ability somewhat, although the 180hp
still climbs well. When just cruising around however, the lower rpm does
help reduce fuel burn. For example, recently 5 RVs flew from Twin Oaks to
the Oregon coast and back, in fairly good formation, at 4500' and fairly
fast. I was at 2450 rpm with not a lot of throttle left, flying as part
of a 4 plane formation (finger 4?). I was the outermost plane, with a FI
160hp C/S RV-6 in lead, a 180hp C/S Rv4 between him and I, and the RV-8
200hp C/S on the outer-left position from lead. Except for the RV-4, we
all had fuel flow instruments and I was reading 9.4gph while the -6 and -8
were at both at 8.4 - their lower burn rate due to them being able to
lower their rpm with more bite dialed into their props.
This is by no means complete or definitive information, just some fun data
I wanted to share. Basically, if you don't mind running over-square, the
C/S prop really CAN save fuel burn over fixed pitch. Also, I'm really
having a good time learning more about how to run my engine for decent
economy, and the FUELSCAN unit is GREAT!
Don 'The Duck' Wentz, N790DW, 180HP RV-6, #20369 (235hrs)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: RV Speedbrakes |
Interesting. At EAA Arlington 94 I saw an RV with a speed brake just
below the fuselage, between the flaps. Obviouly what is now described is
a different version. Does anyone know what Vans psositon is on speed
brakes. I have come to learn that Van is always right, I hate that!!
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Thu, 26 Oct 1995, Curt Reimer wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > > > Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
> > >
> > > They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
> > > them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
> > >
> > Well...tell us more.
>
> Ok, since there seems to be a lot of interest I'll post the relevant data
> from the brochure. Unfortunately, that brochure is at home and I won't
> have a chance to do this for a day or two, so please be patient.
>
> What I can tell you from memory is that the speedbrakes are vertical
> perforated plates that pop up from the top surface of the wings. They are
> manually operated via a lever. I don't think there was any stated speed
> restriction for the brakes. They look well made, yet small and light.
> They mount near the access panel in the wing and thus can be retrofitted
> to completed wings. I don't recall the price, but I don't think they were
> cheap. Well, that's about all I can recall, so I'll post the real info as
> soon as I can.
>
> Curt Reimer
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
I realize this isn't used on aircraft, but does anyone know how dangerous
the stuff is? Did I just reduce my life by 20 years because I spray painted
an un-ventilated room without a mask? (Why did I do it?)
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Tools (was rivet length) |
> You will need the hand squeezer anyway. Even though I have a pneumatic
> squeezer, I usually set 3/32 rivets with my hand squeezer. 3/32 rivets
> are easy to squeeze with the hand squeezer.
Dif'rent strokes for dif'rent folks I guess. My hand squeezer mostly
gathers dust these days as I use the pneumatic along all the edges for
3/32 rivets -- once it's set to depth I find I can do a row of rivets
in half the time it would take with the hand squeezer. Not that it
saves that much TOTAL time, since you only spend a small percentage of
time actually setting rivets, but it helps.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dahl(at)oslonett.no (Espen Dahl) |
| Subject: | Re: Vert rudder/stab spar - a tip |
This one is for the other Empennage builders with the same IQ as me:
Some time one gets to do something really stupid... like not checking that
the rudder spar nutplates/bearings will actually match the vert stab in
*both* the vertical and horizontal axis. I forgot to adjust the "side ways"
position of the nutplates, and got a less than pleasing result. The rudder
spar should move freely when attached to the vert stab. I had to redo my
rudder spar, and it turned out great in the end. Van`s will supply
replacement parts for a reasonable price, so don`t worry about making little
mistakes like this - as long as you discover them in time.
(I know my English isn`t perfect, but please note; I will only accept
complaints in beutiful norwegian...)
Best regards,
Espen Dahl
RV-4 s/n 2770
Right elevator (for several months actually!!)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long..... |
Kevin
In the future use the riveting arbor tool to do the spars, use a
rivet gun on one end, don't use a hammer, produces the best rivets I have
ever seen.
Bob Busick
RV-6
>
> Kevin & Trudy Williams
> RV-6A #24438 EMP
>
> PS. I squeezed all of the rivets in the rear HS spar and man was I tired.
> After spending some time "cleaning up" a few rivets that were not perfect, I
> discovered two things:
> 1) My wife is very good at bucking rivets
> 2) My 3X rivet gun is a better way to have put the HS together.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Rivet length and how they got that long.....PA |
I had the exact same problem, could not get a single rivet ot squeeze
straight with the US industrial squeezer. I borrowed a frineds Tatc
(the one Avery sells), and I can squeeze 10/10 striaght with it. The
difference in quality is immediately visible when using the two side
by side.
Woody
> I was using a US industrial hand rivet squeezer for a while and found that a
> lot of my
> rivets were getting pushed over. Finally showed it to a friend of mine who
> showed me
> how there was a lot of 'slop' in the C yoke and the plunger (the dies were
> just a little
> loose, and this small amount of play made a big difference). Then he showed
> me his
> Avery squeezer, and how little play it had. I recently bit the bullet and
> bought the
> Avery squeezer. What a difference! Almost all my rivets now come out really
> well.
> I thought I had learned this lesson, but the quality tools REALLY make a big
> difference.
>
> Anyone want a slightly used US Industrial squeezer for cheap?
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Vert rudder/stab spar - a tip |
>
>
>This one is for the other Empennage builders with the same IQ as me:
>
>Some time one gets to do something really stupid... like not checking that
>the rudder spar nutplates/bearings will actually match the vert stab in
>*both* the vertical and horizontal axis. I forgot to adjust the "side ways"
>position of the nutplates, and got a less than pleasing result. The rudder
>spar should move freely when attached to the vert stab. I had to redo my
>rudder spar, and it turned out great in the end. Van`s will supply
>replacement parts for a reasonable price, so don`t worry about making little
>mistakes like this - as long as you discover them in time.
>
>(I know my English isn`t perfect, but please note; I will only accept
>complaints in beutiful norwegian...)
>
>Best regards,
>Espen Dahl
>RV-4 s/n 2770
>Right elevator (for several months actually!!)
>
Darned if I could find anything wrong with the 'English'; and I am known to
be a real nit picker. Of course, my wife is Norvegion; I'm used to
understanding Nordic talk. More lefse please and pass the lutefisk.
John Ammeter
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV Building Seminars |
| From: | "Kevin E. Vap" <kvap(at)sky.net> |
-- [ From: Kevin E. Vap * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Van's holds their clinic 4 times a year during the non-summer months. I
think they are: late Sept, late Oct, early Apr and early May (call for
definite dates). I attended the late September clinic this year (4 weeks
ago). I fully recommend it. It was a great class and I learned alot
(confidence building as well as skills).
It sounds (from Jim's description) like the Skystruck seminar has a similar
agenda. It may be better since it is on a weekend (and $100 dollars less I
think). Van's is 5 weekdays (4 1/2) and costs $300.
Another advantage to Van's class (other than a demo ride, factory tour, talk
with Van, etc) is that you get to work with Phil Duyck. Phil is the
"replacement" at Van's for Art Chard; he is A&P, IA, etc...see last RVator.
While Ken Scott can give you the practical (and humorous) view to building,
working with a professional airplane builder like Phil was a great
experience and I learned more from him than from Ken. If you can spare the
time off, I highly recommend the Van's clinic.
Besides, while you're at the Van's clinic, you can schedule some dual time
in the evenings with Mike Seager in the RV-6 to get some experience in an RV
...maybe even a check out (probably don't want to get the full checkout done
too early, though).
My $0.02 worth.
-Kevin Vap
RV-6 empennage
kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulried(at)Interpath.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV Building Semi... |
Terry:
Thanks for the well written description of the Van's builder clinic. I will be
calling them in
the morning to find out the next scheduled class. I just missed the latest one....started
today!!
Paul Riedlinger
PS It might be a good idea to put your email address in your signature file at
the end of your
message. My email program strips the "from's" when dealing with Lists like the
RV-list. Makes
it difficult for me to reply in E-mail (and compare our common homeland - Canada
- still one
nation last time I checked the news) and keep the chit-chat traffic off the list.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | veideman(at)junction.net (Dusty Veideman) |
>At the risk of starting YET ANOTHER :-) priming discussion, I'm interested in
>hearing about the direct experience of 'Listers with the Endura primer EP-2C.
> I've got a local source of supply that swears by it! Your thoughts are
>appreciated...thanx...
>
>Terry in Calgary
>S/N 24414
>"Empennage"
>
I used Endura exclusively on my project and I am very pleased with the results.
The next Van's calendar should show the end result of my creation.
The only problem that I encountered was due to the lack of experience in
painting anything. I sprayed everthing in my garage, as I completed the
various stages.
I found that I was not applying the paint thick enough and by the time I
came to finish the fuselage, I had it figured out that it takes at least 4
coats for the finished product and those four coats have to be sprayed on as
thick as you can without running.
Dusty Veideman
RV-6 C-FUVX now flying and logged 36 hrs in the last 2 months and 4 days.....
no problems and flies hands off!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
>I realize this isn't used on aircraft, but does anyone know how dangerous
>the stuff is? Did I just reduce my life by 20 years because I spray painted
>an un-ventilated room without a mask? (Why did I do it?)
>
>-Steve Day
>sday(at)pharmcomp.com
>(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
I think the only prob is particulate matter being inhaled, if you blow
your nose and it's coloured you inhaled ;-) If you managed to hold your
breath for a bit then no prob as there aren't any solvents or reactant
fumes etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
>>
>> My 100 Mhz Pentium Windows 95 system runs great and will blow the doors off
>> of *any* Mac system past or present. Face it, Apple is dead... ;-)
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>
> Is that a Pentium with a tail wheel or is it one of those stinkin' nose
>draggers?
> When you guys get tired of your toys, get a real computer (Sun-SCPARC or
>HP) ;-) Or, at lease run a real OS on your PC. ;-)=)
>
> Chris, 'UNIX snob club'.
>
Sok I have a sticker on my CPU case that reads:
"My other computer is an Alpha"
of course this might be more snobby if it read Cray but....
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
Hi All
I've been following the thread on squeezers with some interest.
I've heard a couple of names and sizes mentioned and it seems
worth while to get one.
So the question is which one is good and why and so my wallet
stops screaming how much and where..;-)
What size will let you do the most, or whats too big to fit in
tight spots etc.
Thanks
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gbroglin(at)glasscity.net (Gene Broglin) |
| Subject: | Wing Access Panel |
I am skinning the bottom wing of my 6A and using the Barnard fast built
componets. Where the predrilled skin meets at the spar flange and access
panel leaves about a 1/8 inch gap. This is shown clearly on Barnards drawing
W-525A.
My questios is, has anyone found a good way to fill this gap?
Thanks GB
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
Thank you Chris and Terry; it sounds simple now! I had no idea what to
do with the OUT on the vaccuum pump. A couple of other questions,
the vaccuum regulator I purchased A/S 2H3-23 has a 5/8 port and
two 3/8 ports. I am assuming I connect the 5/8 port to the vaccuum
pump IN. Can you confirm this? Also, can I use one 3/8 port for the
vaccuum gauge and one for the instruments? I purchased the mini 1"
gauge from a/s also, it has 1/4" ports; one labeled "v", I don't recall
the other now. If everything is connected in series how is it all
terminated?
Thanks,
Dan
On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > From owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com Mon Oct 30 13:58:20 1995
> > X-Deleted-Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> >
> > the vacuum pump on my 0320 has two ports, one labeled IN and one OUT.
> > Can anyone tell me which goes to the regulator and what do I do with
> > the other one? do I install a filter on it? Please if you know I'd
> > appreciated help; but please no referrals to Tony B's book or phone
> > numbers; thanks.
> >
> > Dan Boudro
> > RV-4 #3933 first time I've had a vacuum system!
> >
>
> Relable the ports as vaccume (IN) and exhaust (OUT) Air is pulled
> from the filter into the inst. to the regulator and then to the pump.
> The regulator bleads atmospheric pressure into the vaccume line to
> adjust the vaccume. There are two (sometimes three) ports on the inst
> for air connections. One is for the filter connectionn (IN) one for
> the vaccume connection (OUT) and the sometimes third one is for your
> vaccume gauge. The life of your vaccume instruments and pump depends
> on clean air at all times. Make sure you have a good filter and replace/
> clean it at every AI. Some old-timers I know also clean and lube the
> instruments every year. It seems to work for them.
>
> Chris
> cruble(at)cisco.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | donmack(at)interaccess.com (Don Mack) |
Sorry this question has nothing to do with Win95 or Email problems ;)
I am going to be ordering my fuse for a 6a pretty soon and have heard discussion
before about various options.
The only ones I am familar with are the canopy and electric/manual trim.
I know the Barnards are coming out with a firewall prebuild option.
Are there any others that I should be aware of and have people tried them?
Don Mack
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dyer(at)edlmail.jsc.nasa.gov (Terry Dyer) |
>Thank you Chris and Terry; it sounds simple now! I had no idea what to
>do with the OUT on the vaccuum pump. A couple of other questions,
>the vaccuum regulator I purchased A/S 2H3-23 has a 5/8 port and
>two 3/8 ports. I am assuming I connect the 5/8 port to the vaccuum
>pump IN. Can you confirm this? Also, can I use one 3/8 port for the
>vaccuum gauge and one for the instruments? I purchased the mini 1"
>gauge from a/s also, it has 1/4" ports; one labeled "v", I don't recall
>the other now. If everything is connected in series how is it all
>terminated?
>Thanks,
>Dan
>
If your regulator looks like the one pictured in the aircraft spruce catalog
it should be mounted on the inside of the firewall with the 5/8 port
penatrating the firewall, it will be tied to the in on the vac pump. The
reason for routing the gyros in series is the cfm requirments of the gyros,
both gyros get the full cfm of the pump. If the pump can draw more then
twice the cfm requirments of the gyros then a parallel path is fine. The
best place for the gauge is ported off the last gyro in the chain, most
gyros have a port for the gauge. Most vacuum gauges have a vac side and a
presure side, the vac side is the one you use theb other side is left open.
The filter is usually the termination of the system.
Terry Dyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler |
<<
As don't know what status of company is; just wish I'd of bought a "spare".
I'm CC to Jim Stugart, who also has one in his plane and perhaps he'll have a
comment.
M E Soward N63TX(at)aol.com (flying 560 hrs and 4 1/2 years) >>
Doug Spears was his name. I spoke with his wife this morning and she says
the business will continue and gave me a phone number of 615/267-3311. I
called it and spoke with Richard Rey who confirmed what she said. I was
interested in the transducer used to take the error signal from a handheld
GPS to the Navaid wing levelr. Navaid only sells it with new autopilots.
You can get them as an add-on from Jim Ham, in California, 415/326-2669.
Marvin, the Weenie Roast is at Kittie Hill on Saturday Nov. 4th.
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
>
> Thank you Chris and Terry; it sounds simple now! I had no idea what to
> do with the OUT on the vaccuum pump. A couple of other questions,
> the vaccuum regulator I purchased A/S 2H3-23 has a 5/8 port and
> two 3/8 ports. I am assuming I connect the 5/8 port to the vaccuum
> pump IN.
You are correct sir.
> Can you confirm this? Also, can I use one 3/8 port for the
> vaccuum gauge and one for the instruments?
You should have a gauge connection on the back of the DG. It will be
a smaller fitting (1/4"?). Use one of the 3/8" ports for the DG and the
other for the AI. See below.
> I purchased the mini 1"
> gauge from a/s also, it has 1/4" ports; one labeled "v", I don't recall
> the other now. If everything is connected in series how is it all
> terminated?
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
This how 85W is set up;
___
| / |<-----Gauge
|___|
| ________
__ |_| | ________
-------- | |_ | DG |<----\ | |<--
_| |_ _ _|<----|________| \<-------| Filter |<--
<-|_ OUT IN _|<----| |_ ________ / | |<--
| | | _|<----| |<----/ |________|<--
|________| |__| | AI |
PUMP Reg. |________|
Instruments
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BHamlin1(at)aol.com |
I can recommend the Avery hand squeezer (the one they design and build; I've
not used
the Tatco) as a very high quality tool. I have the 2.5" yoke and it's wide
enough to do
all the rivets on the RV4 horiz stab. Cost is about $180.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Fuse Options. |
> I am going to be ordering my fuse for a 6a pretty soon and have heard discussion
> before about various options.
>
> The only ones I am familar with are the canopy and electric/manual trim.
> I know the Barnards are coming out with a firewall prebuild option.
> Are there any others that I should be aware of and have people tried them?
>
> Don Mack
> RV-6A
Don:
We JUST talked about this -- where were you?
Did/would anyone compile a list of all the options we discussed so we don't
have to go through this again....?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Spruell, Steven E." <sspruell(at)ssf8.jsc.nasa.gov> |
Hey Gang!
I'm still in tool scrounge mode before I start on my -6A, but I have a
couple of requests for info. First, I have seen a distinct lack of
pictures of interiors for the -6 (info pack had none, freeze-framing the
video got me two peeks). Anyway, if any of you have some photos of -6
interiors and you can get them into electronic format, could you please
upload them to the server?
Second, in reviewing the archives I saw several references to a retract
system for the RV. That's WAY down the road, and I'm not seriously
considering it but I would still like to get any info on it that's
available.
As usual, thanks for the help.
Steven Spruell
sspruell(at)ssf8.jsc.nasa.gov
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
We just had this discussion less than a month ago. Please download the
archive for this time period and check it out. There weere lots of
suggestions/ comments.
Ross Mickey
6-A Fuse
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Subject: RV-List: Fuse Options.
Sorry this question has nothing to do with Win95 or Email problems ;)
I am going to be ordering my fuse for a 6a pretty soon and have heard
discussion
before about various options.
The only ones I am familar with are the canopy and electric/manual
trim.
I know the Barnards are coming out with a firewall prebuild option.
Are there any others that I should be aware of and have people tried
them?
Don Mack
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler |
Did I miss the beginning of this string???? Is Navaid going out of
business???? I want one but was planning on waiting a year or so.
Ross Mickey
6-A Fuse
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Subject: RV-List: Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler
<<
As don't know what status of company is; just wish I'd of bought a
"spare".
I'm CC to Jim Stugart, who also has one in his plane and perhaps he'll
have a
comment.
M E Soward N63TX(at)aol.com (flying 560 hrs and 4 1/2 years) >>
Doug Spears was his name. I spoke with his wife this morning and she
says
the business will continue and gave me a phone number of 615/267-3311.
I
called it and spoke with Richard Rey who confirmed what she said. I
was
interested in the transducer used to take the error signal from a
handheld
GPS to the Navaid wing levelr. Navaid only sells it with new
autopilots.
You can get them as an add-on from Jim Ham, in California,
415/326-2669.
Marvin, the Weenie Roast is at Kittie Hill on Saturday Nov. 4th.
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KHarrill(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re RV-List Tool Specifics |
Joel Harding wrote:
I have a 1/3 HP Sears drill press that has a minimum speed of 600 RPM, and
I'm interested in your tecnique for cutting lightening holes. I have been
considering buying one with slower speed capability, but if there is a safe
way to do it at higher speed, please let me know.
Joel,
I cut the lighting holes in the HS, VS, and rudder with a Delta drill press
at 600 RPM. I just clamped it down every way I could, put on gloves, stood
way back, fed the cutter real slow and held my breath. It worked!
Good luck
Ken Harrill
RV - 6 elevators
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
Anybody have A/S's e-mail address?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV Speedbrakes |
>
> Interesting. At EAA Arlington 94 I saw an RV with a speed brake just
> below the fuselage, between the flaps. Obviouly what is now described is
> a different version. Does anyone know what Vans psositon is on speed
> brakes. I have come to learn that Van is always right, I hate that!!
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
I dare you to call him and ask. I'll bet I can guess what he'd say --
the same thing that he says about most other things people do to change
his design: "Why do you wanna go and screw up a perfectly good airplane?"
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> On Thu, 26 Oct 1995, Curt Reimer wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Chris Ruble wrote:
> > > > > Had anyone thought of some form of dive brakes or speed brakes?
> > > >
> > > > They are commercially available and designed specifically for RVs. I saw
> > > > them at Osh and have a brochure from the company if you need more info.
> > > >
> > > Well...tell us more.
> >
> > Ok, since there seems to be a lot of interest I'll post the relevant data
> > from the brochure. Unfortunately, that brochure is at home and I won't
> > have a chance to do this for a day or two, so please be patient.
> >
> > What I can tell you from memory is that the speedbrakes are vertical
> > perforated plates that pop up from the top surface of the wings. They are
> > manually operated via a lever. I don't think there was any stated speed
> > restriction for the brakes. They look well made, yet small and light.
> > They mount near the access panel in the wing and thus can be retrofitted
> > to completed wings. I don't recall the price, but I don't think they were
> > cheap. Well, that's about all I can recall, so I'll post the real info as
> > soon as I can.
> >
> > Curt Reimer
> >
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler |
>
> Did I miss the beginning of this string???? Is Navaid going out of
> business???? I want one but was planning on waiting a year or so.
>
>
> Ross Mickey
> 6-A Fuse
No, the concern stems from the fact that the inventor of the device was
killed last month in a plane crash. But apparently the company will
continue without him. I called them a few weeks ago and got the same
response that Jim did. They told me that Doug had willed his share of
the company to some of the engineers that worked there.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- Begin Forwarded Message
>
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler
>
>
>
> <<
> As don't know what status of company is; just wish I'd of bought a
> "spare".
>
> I'm CC to Jim Stugart, who also has one in his plane and perhaps he'll
> have a
> comment.
>
> M E Soward N63TX(at)aol.com (flying 560 hrs and 4 1/2 years) >>
>
> Doug Spears was his name. I spoke with his wife this morning and she
> says
> the business will continue and gave me a phone number of 615/267-3311.
> I
> called it and spoke with Richard Rey who confirmed what she said. I
> was
> interested in the transducer used to take the error signal from a
> handheld
> GPS to the Navaid wing levelr. Navaid only sells it with new
> autopilots.
> You can get them as an add-on from Jim Ham, in California,
> 415/326-2669.
>
> Marvin, the Weenie Roast is at Kittie Hill on Saturday Nov. 4th.
>
> Jim Stugart
> Derflieger(at)aol.com
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Signal-to-Noise On The List... |
RV-Listers-
I received the following message today regarding the content of late on the
RV-List. I have to admit that even I am guilty of "excessive chatter" on the
List. Let's not have a big discussion on the List about this, but rather
just read Brian's message and take it to heart. His comments echo my
feelings as well.
Keep up the great RV discussions!
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
>--------------
>Subject: RV-list is getting noisy...
>
>Hi Matt,
>
>Although I've not belonged to the rv-list for very long, I've been
>noticing that the signal-to-noise ratio on the list has been slowly
>deteriorating over the past few weeks. It's not unusual for me to get
>30+ messages a day from the list, and much of that email is crap
>related to Windows 95 vs. Macs, Confirmed Kill, various cool web pages
>to check out, and the perrenial quote-the-last-guy's-entire-message-
>and-append-"I-agree"-type missive.
>
>When one belongs to a number of mail lists (as I'm sure many of the
>rv-listers do) the volume of email we receiv a day can get to the
>point where going through it, even if we keep hitting 'delete', takes
>some serious time.
>
>As is the case on many other lists, I've noticed that much of the
>above traffic comes from aol.com based mail addresses. Perhaps purely
>recreational users are unaware of old-style netiquette as practiced by
>those of us who use our Internet access for a living too.
>
>I know this is a touchy subject. I'm NOT advocating instituting
>censorship or submission policies, and the last thing I would want to
>do is destroy the great camaraderie and information exchange that
>takes place on the list. On the other hand, "keyboard spasm" is
>starting to erode the list's quality.
>
>I'm wondering if a pleasant note requesting people to ask themselves
>"Does everyone building an RV really care to read what I am about to
>type" might not do the trick.
>
>I'm sending this request to you as opposed to the list at large
>because a) you are the list's moderator; b) I don't really want to
>precipitate a flame war; and c) just because I'm having a beef does
>not mean everyone else is. If that's the case, and you feel I'm way
>off base, please let me know. I will then have to reevaluate for
>myself whether the utility of the rv-list is worth the trouble.
>
>Thanks for your consideration...
>
>Brian Yablon
>byablon(at)lanart.com
>--------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | danield(at)nbnet.nb.ca (Daniel Dupont) |
>>This has nothing to do with the RV list or building RV's but I thought that
>>the listers might be interested in my experience with Windows 95.
>>
>>I had a 486DX-50 IBM compatable computer with about 600 Megs of data and
>>programs. I installed Windows 95 on my computer and had nothing but trouble.
>> To date I have spent over 14 hours of phone time with Microsoft porduct
>>support and have changed virtually everything in my computer except the hard
>>drive that contains my data files and I am still having problems. I have had
>>to reinstall almost all of my programs and still some of them don't work.
>> DOS programs seem to have the most problems. The computer technicians that
>>changed my hardware say that the only systems that don't have problems are
>>new systems that don't have any other software installed on them except
>>Windows 95 to start with. My advice to anyone considering Windows 95 is to
>>wait until one or two more versions come out that fix all of the bugs that
>>have plaged me. You will save yourself a lot of grief.
>>
>>Jim Cone
>>jamescone(at)aol.com
>>Working on finishing kit
>>
>>
>I have a 486dx 33Mhz machine and I have had no problems. In fact all network
>applications such as FTP Netscape and Eudora run alot faster and never hang
>up. Win 95 has its own 32 bit socket and works alot better then trumput
>windsock.
>It sounds like your IBM compatible computer may not be so compatable!
>Terry Dyer
>
>
>
I have a 486 DX 50 Intel chip with 8 meg ram and about 2 gig of stuff on
the hard drive
and had no problem with Windows 95 the only thing that took a while to
configure was the
network to replace the Trumpet software, and to change my dialing account
from SLIP to
PPP account
Daniel Dupont
Wanabe -4/-8
danield(at)nbnet.nb.ca
Daniel Dupont
Canada
danield(at)nbnet.nb.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler -Reply |
One of the principals died in a Mustang II
crash about a month ago.
It sounds like they will stay in business.
>>> Ross Mickey
10/31/95 12:06pm >>>
Did I miss the beginning of this string????
Is Navaid going out of business???? I
want one but was planning on waiting a year
or so.
Ross Mickey
6-A Fuse
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Subject: RV-List: Re: Navaid Devices, wing
leveler
N63tx writes:
<< As don't know what status of company is;
just wish I'd of bought a "spare".
I'm CC to Jim Stugart, who also has one in
his plane and perhaps he'll have a comment.
M E Soward N63TX(at)aol.com (flying 560 hrs
and 4 1/2 years) >>
Doug Spears was his name. I spoke with his
wife this morning and she says the business
will continue and gave me a phone number of
615/267-3311.
I called it and spoke with Richard Rey who
confirmed what she said. I was interested
in the transducer used to take the error
signal from a handheld
GPS to the Navaid wing levelr. Navaid only
sells it with new autopilots.
You can get them as an add-on from Jim Ham,
in California, 415/326-2669.
Marvin, the Weenie Roast is at Kittie Hill
on Saturday Nov. 4th.
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing leveler |
Doug Spears developed NAVAID DEVICE ($1100 wing leveler). He bought Mustang
II, to use as "test Bed" for his device, and improvements.
He was killed in airplane crash. His widow advises company will continue.
A Mr. Richard Rey 615-267-3311 is now operating for Mrs. Spears (as I
understand).
Have used the NAVAID DEVICE, coupled to VOR, or straight use, or hooked to my
Northstar GPS/LORAN navigation. Got about 400 hours on it in my RV-6A, it is
next to "motherhood", sliced bread, or peanut butter in goodness and useage!!
Marvin Soward
N63TX(at)aol.com
flying four & 1/2 yrs with 563 hours.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing l |
I am also planning on installing one in my -6A. Does anyone know if
the Navaid turn coordinator ( not certified) meets the IFR
requirement of a gryodirectional rate of turn indicator? More
generally, does an experimental A/C flown under IFR need certified
equipment listed under the basic IFR requirements?
Has anyone had any bad experiences with the Navaid autopilot?
Scott
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | James Mike Wilson <James_Mike_Wilson(at)ccm2.hf.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re RV-List Tool Specifics |
Text item:
Best money is spent on good hole saws. I have used fly cutters but find them
very nerve racking.
mike
Joel Harding wrote:
I have a 1/3 HP Sears drill press that has a minimum speed of 600 RPM, and
I'm interested in your tecnique for cutting lightening holes. I have been
considering buying one with slower speed capability, but if there is a safe
way to do it at higher speed, please let me know.
Joel,
I cut the lighting holes in the HS, VS, and rudder with a Delta drill press
at 600 RPM. I just clamped it down every way I could, put on gloves, stood
way back, fed the cutter real slow and held my breath. It worked!
Good luck
Ken Harrill
RV - 6 elevators
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re RV-List Tool Specifics
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:43:30 -0500
From: aol.com!KHarrill(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TheBigHu(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | BEST PLACE FOR TOOLS |
Hello fellow RVers!!!
I'm proud to announce that last week I sent in my order for the empennage kit
for an RV-6A. I cannot wait to start. I feel like a little kid all over
again!!!!
My question is simple. I need to buy an assortment of tools to get started.
I've had some correspondence with several members of this mailing list about
tools, but would like to get a more all-around opinion. From whom should I
purchase the majority of my tools? I understand Avery is very good. I've also
heard about Action Air Parts and Cleveland. Which is best in your opinion? I
really would like to know.
Much like flying itself, the key to successful building is to learn from the
successes AND the failures of those in the business.
Ron Mott
RV-6A
Olathe, Kansas (KC suburb)
Waiting for empennage!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
I think it would be a great idea to add the option of getting this mailing
list in digest form rather than a bunch of separate posts, this may have been
discussed and decided before, but as Im new to this list just thought Id
pose the question. Any thoughts?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Murray Lalor (Bwana) <mlalor(at)ozhost.ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: digest format? |
>
> I think it would be a great idea to add the option of getting this mailing
> list in digest form rather than a bunch of separate posts, this may have been
> discussed and decided before, but as Im new to this list just thought Id
> pose the question. Any thoughts?
>
Hi,
ke it in digest too :)
Cya.
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
| Murray "Moray" Lalor Ozhost PID - 5230 |
| - mlalor(at)ozhost.ozemail.com.au - - Ozhost Bwana and Scenario Designer - |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| *** Air Warrior Downunder - http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dond/awhome.htm *** |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Murray Lalor (Bwana) <mlalor(at)ozhost.ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: digest format? |
>
> ke it in digest too :)
>
> Cya.
:/ that was *meant* to say.....Why, i'd like to get the RV-List in digest
form too. :)
Bye.
_____________________________________________________________________________
| Murray "Moray" Lalor Ozhost PID - 5230 |
| - mlalor(at)ozhost.ozemail.com.au - - Ozhost Bwana and Scenario Designer - |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| *** Air Warrior Downunder - http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dond/awhome.htm *** |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: BEST PLACE FOR T... |
Ron.. Becki and I have built 2 RV6A's all with Avery tools,you cann't go
wrong there. The tools are good quility and the Avery's stand be hind there
tools with lots of support.Good luck. The adventure is about to
begin....George Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | RV Speedbrakes and Design Changes |
The Nigerian Air Beetle uses a belly mounted speed brake. This is used
to reduce the amount of time the aircraft spends descending through a
seasonal dust cloud that drifts south from the Sahara.
Regarding the RV series of aircraft and the business of bringing them
to the market for aviation consumers, I think that Van is often right.
His success is testimony to that.
There are always going to be specific applications where design change
will result in another perfectly good airplane. Is Van's the last
aircraft that needs to be designed?
Take a look at the RV-8, he is at it himself.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> Interesting. At EAA Arlington 94 I saw an RV with a speed brake just
> below the fuselage, between the flaps. Obviouly what is now described is
> a different version. Does anyone know what Vans psositon is on speed
> brakes. I have come to learn that Van is always right, I hate that!!
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
>
>I dare you to call him and ask. I'll bet I can guess what he'd say --
>the same thing that he says about most other things people do to
>changehis design: "Why do you wanna go and screw up a perfectly good airplane?"
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Navaid Devices, wing l |
>More generally, does an experimental A/C flown under IFR need certified
>equipment listed under the basic IFR requirements?
>
>
I have certified my RV-6A for IFR operations. When the FAA inspected the
plane for the airworthiness certificate, they stated that all instumentation
required for IFR operation in the FAR's (ie, the turn & bank) is required
have TSO certification. I choose the Centry I wing leveler for that reason. I
suppose you could have a TSO'ed turn & bank AND the Navaid device, but I
would ask somebody who knows more about the legalities...
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV S/N 21508 600+ Hrs in 2 Yrs
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: BEST PLACE FOR TOOLS |
Ron,
Good Luck! I know how excited you feel. I felt the same way when I decided
to build my second RV-4. If you give me a fax # I'll fax a list of tool
I purchased from Avery when I got started. Those, a drill press, band saw,
and a good air compressor should get you started. I suggest you bit the
bullet and purchase a pneumatic squeezer. Of course you'll need a rivet
gun, and air drill too. I bought a nifty hand sander (belt) from harbor
freight at use it alot too but could get along w/o it.
Dan Boudro
Alubquerque, NM
(505) 889-7241 work
(505) 889-7430 fax
On Tue, 31 Oct 1995 aol.com!TheBigHu(at)matronics.com wrote:
> Hello fellow RVers!!!
>
> I'm proud to announce that last week I sent in my order for the empennage kit
> for an RV-6A. I cannot wait to start. I feel like a little kid all over
> again!!!!
>
> My question is simple. I need to buy an assortment of tools to get started.
> I've had some correspondence with several members of this mailing list about
> tools, but would like to get a more all-around opinion. From whom should I
> purchase the majority of my tools? I understand Avery is very good. I've also
> heard about Action Air Parts and Cleveland. Which is best in your opinion? I
> really would like to know.
>
> Much like flying itself, the key to successful building is to learn from the
> successes AND the failures of those in the business.
>
> Ron Mott
> RV-6A
> Olathe, Kansas (KC suburb)
> Waiting for empennage!!!!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | AB320FLYER(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Re RV-List Tool Specifics |
Thanks to Gil and Jeff for the detailed responses on circle cutting. You've
convinced me to keep my drill press and instead invest in a belt/disc sander.
I'm gearing up to start an RV-8 when they're available, so all the tool tips
have really helped.
Joel Harding
Larkspur, CO
AB320FLYER(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
Fellow Builders,
I'm looking for a source of small remote video cameras to permanantly
(semi-permanantly) attach to an RV. I have seen/heard of "pencil"
cameras, and remotely operated multi-axis cameras. Then there are the
type they mount in all the race cars. Does anyone know of sources for
this type of equipment? I took a helicopter ride in Hawaii and they had
a real nice setup with a small 5-7" black and white panel mounted
moniter, portable recorder, and a "steerable" camera mounted in the
front lower fuselage behind a plexiglass window. It worked great except
for hovering in the rain where the airspeed could not blow the rain off
of the window.
Also, in the "RV Story" video from Van's, it looks as though they have
a tail mounted camera.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ed Cole RV24430 Emmpenage
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Pylon Mounted Baggage Pods |
Some time ago there was a posting about tip tanks or wing tanks
suspended from hard points. I was looking through an old Sport Aviation
and found a commercially available baggage container that is suspended
on a pylon attached to the wing of a RV-4.
I have no connection to this product. The photograph and company
information may by found in the June 1995 issue of Sport Aviation,
page 95. I hope that all of the list members are supporting the EAA and
have copies to check out.
The pylons appear to be attached at mid span with the centre of mass ahead
of, or, at the main spar. Inertia loads will relieve the bending moment of
the wing around the fuselage axis. Dynamic landing loads about the same
axis may be increased. Torsion about the wing axis will depend on how far
from the axis the centre of mass is located. Masses behind may contribute
to structural divergence. The pods are sized to hold 25 pounds each.
Vne is around 185 knots. Converted to Dynamic Pressure (q) this
works out to 116 pounds of force per square foot of frontal area. The
drag coefficient (Cd) based on frontal area of a streamline body on a
smooth pylon is 0.05. Drag is the product of Cd, q and the frontal
area. For each container the frontal area is around one foot square
giving a drag of six pounds. The structure will have to transmit this
load to the rear spar attach and react it there. Considering the moment
arms involved, the additional load at the attach bolt is likely to be
the same order of magnitude as the drag.
I have a method of calculating the change in speed that results
from an increase in drag. As soon as I can find it I will post it.
Suffice to say that the containers will slow the aircraft
somewhat. Twelve pounds of drag at the most.
I don't know what analysis was done on this baggage container
system.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rkinder(at)gate.net |
| Subject: | Re: Video Cameras |
> I'm looking for a source of small remote video cameras to permanantly
> (semi-permanantly) attach to an RV. I have seen/heard of "pencil"
[snip!]
> Ed Cole RV24430 Emmpenage
> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
Supercircuits has a complete line of micro CCD video cameras and
accessories. Their web page is http://www.scx.com or call 1-800-335-9777
for a catalog. They have everything you need.
--
# Robert Kinder # rkinder(at)gate.net #
# Software Engineer # Siemens Stromberg-Carlson # "You can't polish a turd."
# # Boca Raton, Florida # - Butt-Head
# All opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Russell Duffy <rad(at)gulf.net> |
| Subject: | RV-6/6A project for sale |
As I mentioned before, I'm giving up on the RV project. I put a few =
pictures of it, and more information on a web page that I've been =
playing with (when I should have been building). =20
Good luck to everyone else on their projects. Please send any questions =
or comments to me rather than the list. =20
Thanks,
Russell Duffy
rad(at)gulf.net
http://www.gulf.net/~rad
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | Re: Pylon Mounted Baggage Pods |
Oops! Make that page 29.
David Fried
DF-6 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
I have no connection to this product. The photograph and company
information may by found in the June 1995 issue of Sport Aviation, page
95. I hope that all of the list members are supporting the EAA and have
copies to check out.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: rudder pedal placement |
> Could I ask the group again about using fibre nuts on control parts. I note on
> the plans, at the base of the control column, all the bolts end withan "A",
> which means to me they are not drilled, and therefore could not take nuts and
> cotter pins ? Or am I missing something ?
I noticed this doesn't seem to have been addressed yet so I thought I'd
take a shot at it. My understanding is that unless the bolt rotates
it's not necessary to have a drilled bolt/cotter. I haven't gotten to
the controls part so I don't know if that's the way it works. But for
example the aileron bellcrank uses a bearing and the bolt is tightened
down on the bracket which is why they supply fiber lock nuts for that.
It seems to me it would be safest on controls to have a drilled
bolt/cotter, but I don't _think_ it's required. Anyone else know
different?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | RV's & Speed Brakes |
Personally, I can't think of a bigger waste of time and money than installing
speed breaks on an RV. Am I missing something or is there a large population
of turbocharged RV's out there that require speed brakes.
Pull back the power and the RV's will decend very well. Speedbrakes are
usually used oin turbocharged aircraft that need to decend from high
altitudes while keeping the power up to avoid shock cooling the engine.
Do yourself a favor, fly an RV before you start to even think that you need
speed brakes (doesn't anybody slip to land anymore?). But hay, it's your
money and time, spend it anyway you want...I'd rather be flying!
Gary Corde
RV-6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rkinder(at)gate.net |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6/6A project for sale |
I just bought a set of RV-6 plans. It's too early for a kit, but how much
for the videos?
> As I mentioned before, I'm giving up on the RV project. I put a few =
[snip!]
> Thanks,
> Russell Duffy
> rad(at)gulf.net
> http://www.gulf.net/~rad
>
--
# Robert Kinder # rkinder(at)gate.net #
# Software Engineer # Siemens Stromberg-Carlson # "You can't polish a turd."
# # Boca Raton, Florida # - Butt-Head
# All opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | hovan(at)apple.com (John Hovan) |
| Subject: | To heat or not to heat |
Hi All,
I have heard some convincing reasons to heat skins before riveting. ie.
tighter skins, less "oil can" noises etc.
However, I purchased a copy of "14 years of the RVator" through Avery, and
there was a pretty good article on the subject. It basically said that if
the skins are heated unevenly you can cause wrinkles and distortion. It
left me with the impression that unless the skins can be set out in the sun
or heated in a oven before riveting, it probably wouldn't be advisable to
heat the skins with a heat gun or other device.
So, I would like to receive some "net wisdom" on the subject. How many
folks are/did apply heat to the skins before riveting? What were the
results?
thanks,
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov |
>From RUSS_NICHOLS Wed Nov 1 14:38:30 0800 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: belt sander
With tool questions flying again, I have one quick question...
I've read that you should NOT use sandpaper on aluminum. The article
implied that the "sand" comes off of the "paper" and imbeds itself
into the aluminum. It then continues to remove material and
eventually ends up as the location for a stress crack. Is this true?
I've avoided belt sanding and anything but scotchbright and emery
cloth for this reason.
thanks,
Russ Nichols
russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov
RV-6 empenage (still...)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: RV's & Speed Brakes |
On Wed, 1 Nov 1995 RV6junkie(at)aol.com wrote:
> Pull back the power and the RV's will decend very well. Speedbrakes are
> usually used oin turbocharged aircraft that need to decend from high
> altitudes while keeping the power up to avoid shock cooling the engine.
I am not considering a speedbrake myself, at least not initially, since I
plan to build a basic VFR aircraft. However, I can see situations where a
speedbrake would be quite useful. Like flying IFR and getting vectored
into situations where a rapid descent is required. Or, flying in winter,
which where I live, means flying at 30 below. Pulling the power to idle
in that kind of temperature while descending at high speed means MAJOR shock
cooling.
I agree that no one without significant RV flying experience
(including myself) should consider ANY design changes to a proven airplane
like an RV. But, Van did put a speedbrake on the airbeetle, and at least
one company has decided there is enough of a potential market to manufacture
speed brakes for RVs. Different pilots, different missions.
A sideslip is an effective speedbrake on short final, I agree 100%. But,
on a descent from 10,000 feet in hard IFR conditions, I think a sideslip
might not be the technique of choice. Whether or not RVs are suitable for
hard IFR in the first place, well I'm not going to touch that one.
One thing I am curious about: how effective a speedbrake is a constant
speed prop? How many fpm can at a given airspeed can a CS propped RV
descend compared to a fixed pitch RV? Despite my horror at the cost, a CS
prop is starting to sound like a better and better idea, considering the
reduced fuel burn at oversquare settings. Sounds like it would pay for
itself over 1000 hours or so.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Control system bolts (was) rudder pedal placement |
>> Could I ask the group again about using fibre nuts on control parts. I note
>>on
>> the plans, at the base of the control column, all the bolts end withan "A",
>> which means to me they are not drilled, and therefore could not take nuts
>>and
>> cotter pins ? Or am I missing something ?
>
>I noticed this doesn't seem to have been addressed yet so I thought I'd
>take a shot at it. My understanding is that unless the bolt rotates
>it's not necessary to have a drilled bolt/cotter. I haven't gotten to
>the controls part so I don't know if that's the way it works. But for
>example the aileron bellcrank uses a bearing and the bolt is tightened
>down on the bracket which is why they supply fiber lock nuts for that.
>It seems to me it would be safest on controls to have a drilled
>bolt/cotter, but I don't _think_ it's required. Anyone else know
>different?
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
RV-listers,
FAR 23 and the AC13 documents give the requirements for this. If
you really need it, I could find the exact references....
Basically, if the bolt does NOT rotate, then a fibre lock nut is
OK. In most of the RV control system joints, Van uses a rod end bearing.
As the bolt is installed, the bolt should be torqued so that the attachment
bracket (and usually a spacer) holds the bearing in the rod end tightly.
In this way, as the control is moved, it is the bearing in the rod end that
supplies the pivot point, and _not_ the bolt rotating in it's support
bracket.
For the few exceptions to this (e.g., RV6 control stick pivots, RV6
electric flap drive motor end bearing), the plans DO call for a bolt with a
cotter pin hole.
Randall's statement above is correct, but I think that I would
change the one sentence as follows:
"But for example the aileron bellcrank uses a bearing and the bolt is
tightened down on the bracket - and the inner bearing portion of the
bellcrank - which is why they supply fiber lock nuts for that."
Add to your final rigging check list:
* check all control system bolts with fibre locknuts do NOT rotate during
control movements.
... hope this helps ... Gil Alexander
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
RV6A, #20701, N64GA .... finish kit arrived yesterday! A big, expensive box.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Artificial Wings |
Dear All,
I'm building a 6A and getting close to the stage of fitting the gear
mounts/legs to the fuselage. I am building in a single car garage where
there is no room to attach the wings and hauling the fuselage out onto my
(sloping) driveway, levelling it all up, fitting the gear legs and putting
it all back looks like a major undertaking. In addition, from what I can see
you then can't leave the gear legs in place to sit the airplane on because
without the wing the gear mount is kind of flopping around.
Frank Justice suggests building a "pseudo wing" to represent the main spar
for this purpose and this sounds nice from a number of points of view in
that you could then have the plane sitting on its gear with the wooden spar
in place to finish the fuselage.
I can foresee a number of problems with the wooden spar such as ovalising
the holes in the F602 while constructing it or having hole directions that
don't quite match those in the spar ( I understand that some ot the
phlogiston spars have a little bit of wander in the holes) so that the gear
mount that matched the wooden spar would not then match the real one.
I wondered if anyone with an assembled 6A out there had used such a
technique and if they had any pointers, or recommendations.
Thanks for giving it some thought.
Leo Davies,
Sydney Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
I have a disc file and a hard copy of the FAA NPRM recently released for
comment. I suggest that everyone interested in continuing this great
sport of aviating get your hands on a copy and read it. It effects us all
and comments must be submitted by Dec. 11, '95. If there is sufficient
interest, I will load the file to the RV-List (or any other way that is
reasonable). The file is approx. 400K bytes in a PK compressed form, and
approx. 900k bytes uncompressed.
Any interest???
Fred Hiatt hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu
RV-6A, nearly to the wing.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BrooksRV6(at)aol.com |
FYI for those who were interested in this game,
The November issue of Computer Life magazine has an article on page 33 about
Confirmed Kill. It says it is at Domark's Web page at
http//www.domark.com/domark and that you can download a copy to play. The
fee is still $2/hr.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | B F Gibbons <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Sanding Aluminum |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BAA89A.1DBD86E0
=20
I've read that you should NOT use sandpaper on aluminum. The =
article=20
implied that the "sand" comes off of the "paper" and imbeds itself=20
into the aluminum. It then continues to remove material and=20
eventually ends up as the location for a stress crack. Is this =
true? =20
=20
Russ,
I'm no expert - but check out this month's issue of Sport Aviation =
(November, pg 92) Photos show Jim Younkin sanding aluminum for fun and =
profit. The Houdini of aluminum... there'll be no living with him now!
BF Gibbons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | paulried(at)Interpath.com |
| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce RV Tool Kit |
I am getting my tool collection ready to start an RV-6. In browsing through the
Aircraft Spruce
And Specialties catalog, I noticed they had a tool kit they say was initially designed
for
people building RV's. Includes rivet gun, sets, microstop countersink, bucking
bars, etc.
Listed for $560.00
Anyone have experience with Aircraft Spruce and this tool kit?
Thanks
Paul Riedlinger
paulried(at)interpath.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Brown <jmbrown(at)aimnet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: FAA NPRM 95-11 |
Lets put this file where it can be FTP'd from.!!
-------sig cut here-------
jmbrown(at)aimnet.com PP-ASEL
jmbrown(at)BayNetworks.com
Building an RV-6 #23568 N610JB "The Golden BeeBee"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: FAA NPRM 95-11 |
>
> I have a disc file and a hard copy of the FAA NPRM recently released for
> comment. I suggest that everyone interested in continuing this great
> sport of aviating get your hands on a copy and read it. It effects us all
> and comments must be submitted by Dec. 11, '95. If there is sufficient
> interest, I will load the file to the RV-List (or any other way that is
> reasonable). The file is approx. 400K bytes in a PK compressed form, and
> approx. 900k bytes uncompressed.
>
> Any interest???
>
> Fred Hiatt hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu
> RV-6A, nearly to the wing.
Fred,
I realize that you and a lot of rv-list'ers are fairly new to the
Net, but it would be a serious breach of netiquette to send anything
larger than a few hundred bytes to a mass mailer because of the
network congestion it would cause.
Imagine - your message would have to be stored for a brief time
on literally thousands of computers and would consume many gigabytes
of disk storage and kilobaud minutes as it is sent to the many ultimate
destinations.
You would get rejections from mail servers and hate mail from system
administrators for months. This is not something you want.
This is best done by posting the file on a WWW or FTP server and
allowing those that are so inclined to get it. This NPRM has been
around for several months and is posted on all the popular aviation
sites, such as Compuserve and AVWEB.
But thanks for looking out for us!
Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation
mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL
KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354
"You don't have to be a dog to judge a dog show."
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: FAA NPRM 95-11 |
>--------------
>Lets put this file where it can be FTP'd from.!!
>
>--------------
Email it to me and I'll put it on the ftp site and the majordomo file area
if you want.
Matt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: FAA NPRM 95-11 |
>
>I have a disc file and a hard copy of the FAA NPRM recently released for
>comment. I suggest that everyone interested in continuing this great
>sport of aviating get your hands on a copy and read it. It effects us all
>and comments must be submitted by Dec. 11, '95. If there is sufficient
>interest, I will load the file to the RV-List (or any other way that is
>reasonable). The file is approx. 400K bytes in a PK compressed form, and
>approx. 900k bytes uncompressed.
>
>
I presume all list members are National EAA members.....If not, join
immediately, and ask them or your friend who is a member for the October
Sport Aviation mag. It condenses the NPRM and suggests how to address the
issues when you write your letter. If it passes, we could self certify
medical fitness. Another neat thing is that the cross country signoff for
Recreational Pilots goes to a one time thing. EAA's membership telephone is
1-800/843-3612, or FAX 414/426-4873. Dec. 11 is the last day for public
comment.
Jim Stugart
Derflieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV's & Speed Brakes |
>One thing I am curious about: how effective a speedbrake is a constant
>speed prop? How many fpm can at a given airspeed can a CS propped RV
>descend compared to a fixed pitch RV? Despite my horror at the cost, a CS
>prop is starting to sound like a better and better idea, considering the
>reduced fuel burn at oversquare settings. Sounds like it would pay for
>itself over 1000 hours or so.
>
I agree, for normal RV flight a "speedbrake" is something else to go wrong
and add to your empty weight. My CS prop however, does a superb job in
creating extra drag on final, increasing the descent rate. Don't have any
comparison numbers, but I know that when I fly fixed pitch RV's I get to slip
more. I can tell you that when I had an engine out, when I pulled the prop
control out for high RPM, the immediate difference in glide was outstanding!
It was just like I had a new aircraft (a glider!).
Jim Stugart RV6/6A
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com |
Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
I would like to install 1/2 inch conduit in my rv-6 wings. Does
anyone know if 1/2 inch schedule 20 PVC is commercially available or
if there is a suitable substitute.
Jerry Walker
___
* UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
I would rather walk into a prop than go to Pope.
'[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lizard(at)primenet.com |
| Subject: | RE: Sanding Aluminum |
Some (maybe most) sandpaper uses Aluminum oxide as the abrasive. Tiny chips of
this will be scraped and embedded into the Aluminum you are sanding, and they
become the seeds for destruction as they foster the generation of more aluminum
oxide. Most corrosion of aluminum produces,.. Aluminum oxide. The process
of sanding also can damage the alclad corrision proofing layer, but this can
be replaced with a chromate-epoxy primer coating.
Similar results, but different chemistry with steel wool or steel wire brushes.,
tiny flakes of
steel get left embedded in the aluminum and begin disimilar metal corrision.
Brass brushes and brass wool if you must. Sand with something other than Alum-oxide
based
paper.
bob.
Bob Ollerton;The only lizard(at)primenet.com
Roswell, GA., & Patagonia Arizona (Horrible place, don't come here)
" I am the Internet, thank you "
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Two Requests |
I saw a nice installation of retractable gear on a 6 at an air show at China
Lake a year or so ago. They were planning on marketing it but were asking an
incredable ammount of money . A fairly recend RVator had a blurb on the
subject. It wasn't too positive.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | Artificial Wings |
I "bit the bullet" when drilling my main gear legs to my spar.
Granted, it takes additional time to remove the fuse from the jig,
relevel it, attach the wings, allign the gear to the wings and fuse
and drill the gear. Look at the big picture, the holes that you are
drilling are highly stessed ( main gear and wing spar attachment)
putting the wings on the fuse is the ONLY way to be absolutely sure
these holes line up ( there are many bolts that hold each main gear
on). After my mounts were drilled, I did make a spacer for when the
wings were removed. I used a drill press and transfer punches to
mark and drill the spacer. All holes were drillled oversized. When
all was said and done, only 1/3 of the holes in the spacer would
accept a bolt from the center section, thru the spacer and into the
mount. This is fine for temporary assembly of the mount. Looking
back, there is no way I would even consider drilling my gear mounts
without the wings being installed. If you are still considering
drilling the gear mounts without the wings, call Van's. They might
have another way of doing it that I am unaware of.
Keep on building;
Scott (N506RV-Reserved [Ordered New O-320 and Hartzell Prop Today])
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
>Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
>I would like to install 1/2 inch conduit in my rv-6 wings. Does
>anyone know if 1/2 inch schedule 20 PVC is commercially available or
>if there is a suitable substitute.
>
> Jerry Walker
>___
Jerry, I used the corrugated black nylon stuff Van sells. It is strong and
VERY light.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dyer(at)edlmail.jsc.nasa.gov (Terry Dyer) |
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Wings |
>Dear All,
>
>I'm building a 6A and getting close to the stage of fitting the gear
>mounts/legs to the fuselage. I am building in a single car garage where
>there is no room to attach the wings and hauling the fuselage out onto my
>(sloping) driveway, levelling it all up, fitting the gear legs and putting
>it all back looks like a major undertaking. In addition, from what I can see
>you then can't leave the gear legs in place to sit the airplane on because
>without the wing the gear mount is kind of flopping around.
>Frank Justice suggests building a "pseudo wing" to represent the main spar
>for this purpose and this sounds nice from a number of points of view in
>that you could then have the plane sitting on its gear with the wooden spar
>in place to finish the fuselage.
>
>I can foresee a number of problems with the wooden spar such as ovalising
>the holes in the F602 while constructing it or having hole directions that
>don't quite match those in the spar ( I understand that some ot the
>phlogiston spars have a little bit of wander in the holes) so that the gear
>mount that matched the wooden spar would not then match the real one.
>
>I wondered if anyone with an assembled 6A out there had used such a
>technique and if they had any pointers, or recommendations.
>
>Thanks for giving it some thought.
>
>Leo Davies,
>
>Sydney Australia
>
>
I built a 6a in a two car garage that had two small doors.
I drilled the gear leg mounts in assembly with the wing, that is
the only way of being sure it will all align properly.
I used a wooden spar and installed the gear so i could roll it
in and out of the garage.
N294rv
Terry Dyer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV's & Speed Brakes |
>Personally, I can't think of a bigger waste of time and money than
installing
>speed breaks on an RV. Am I missing something or is there a large
population
>of turbocharged RV's out there that require speed brakes.
Did you ever get slam-dunked on an IFR approach? When ATC expects you to be
able to come down like the big boys, speed brakes are REAL nice!(Of coarse,
if you keep aware of your current position, you should be able to predict
such things, But they still happen!)
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
>So, I would like to receive some "net wisdom" on the subject. How many
>folks are/did apply heat to the skins before riveting? What were the
>results?
>
>
Don't heat the skins, heat the room your skinning in. I skinned my wings in
January in New england, and heated my shop up to 95F prior to skinning. Felt
goo working in shorts and "T" shirts in the middle of the winter!
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Wings |
> built a 6a in a two car garage that had two small doors.
>I drilled the gear leg mounts in assembly with the wing, that is
>the only way of being sure it will all align properly.
>I used a wooden spar and installed the gear so i could roll it
>in and out of the garage.
Ditto! But to keep from gauling the spar and/or sparbox holes, I used a
drill guide constructed out of 3/8" steel brake line tubing. Its inside
diameter fits a #30 long bit so you can drill pilot holes in the gear mounts,
then drill them out with the proper size drill later.
I also used a wood blank to sinulate the spar afterwards, so the fuse could
be set onto the gear later on. This was constructed out of 2X4 sandwitched
between two pieces of thin plywood. The 2X4's are thinned so that the final
thickness is the same as the spar.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV 600+ Hrs in 2 Yrs
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
I used what Tom at Van's recommended. 1/2" pvc that is used for hot water
installations. It's the lightest and worked well for me. I got it at home
base for about $3.
dan boudro
rv-4 #3933
On Wed, 1 Nov 1995 delphi.com!JERRYWALKER(at)matronics.com wrote:
>
> Rv-list(at)matronics.com,
> I would like to install 1/2 inch conduit in my rv-6 wings. Does
> anyone know if 1/2 inch schedule 20 PVC is commercially available or
> if there is a suitable substitute.
>
> Jerry Walker
> ___
> * UniQWK v4.02* The Windows Mail Reader
>
> I would rather walk into a prop than go to Pope.
> '[1;35;40m-=> Delphi Internet Jet v3.012 - (C) PBE
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Plains Electric EMS <pla_ems(at)nmia.com> |
I use a circular sander and belt sander (mostly for deburring and edge
smoothing) on my RV-4 and haven't had any problems. I do usually buff
with a scotchbrite wheel if practical though since I like the finish
it produces.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 #3933
On Wed, 1 Nov 1995 fire.ca.gov!RUSS_NICHOLS(at)matronics.com wrote:
> >From RUSS_NICHOLS Wed Nov 1 14:38:30 0800 1995 remote from fire.ca.gov
> Received: from ccMail by ccgate.fire.ca.gov
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 14:38:30 -0800
> Message-ID: <097f6e80(at)fire.ca.gov>
> From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
> Subject: belt sander
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Length: 582
>
>
> With tool questions flying again, I have one quick question...
>
> I've read that you should NOT use sandpaper on aluminum. The article
> implied that the "sand" comes off of the "paper" and imbeds itself
> into the aluminum. It then continues to remove material and
> eventually ends up as the location for a stress crack. Is this true?
>
> I've avoided belt sanding and anything but scotchbright and emery
> cloth for this reason.
>
> thanks,
>
> Russ Nichols
> russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov
> RV-6 empenage (still...)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, John Hovan wrote about heatingwing skins before riveting:
> However, I purchased a copy of "14 years of the RVator" through Avery, and
> there was a pretty good article on the subject. It basically said that if
> the skins are heated unevenly you can cause wrinkles and distortion. It
> left me with the impression that unless the skins can be set out in the sun
> or heated in a oven before riveting, it probably wouldn't be advisable to
> heat the skins with a heat gun or other device.
>
> So, I would like to receive some "net wisdom" on the subject. How many
> folks are/did apply heat to the skins before riveting? What were the
> results?
OK, I'm an enginerr, so maybe my engineering brain is getting in the way,
but I cannot see how this can work.
Lets assume that just prior to riveting you set the skins out in the sun
untill they are nice and hot. The skeleton sits in a nice, cool hanger.
The skins expand a bit, the skeleton does not. You've checked the
temperature of the skins by frying one grade A large egg on their
surface. Guess what: unless you also *drilled all the rivet holes* while
the skins are hot and the skeleton is cold, aren't the rivet holes off a
little bit? And tell me, how can you keep that temperature differential
while you are riveting? Won't the skins cool down and the skeleton heat
up (due to thermal transfer)?
On the practical side, a local RV-4 builder tried the heat-the-skins
method on one wing and not on the other. You cannot tell the difference.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Wed, 1 Nov 1995 JERRYWALKER(at)delphi.com wrote:
> I would like to install 1/2 inch conduit in my rv-6 wings. Does
> anyone know if 1/2 inch schedule 20 PVC is commercially available or
> if there is a suitable substitute.
Van's sells 5/8" flexible conduit at dirt-cheap prices. If I remember
right, 50 feet cost me about 12 bucks. When I installed it, I was
worried that the corrugation would make it difficult to pull wires thru.
Not so. I had no problems feeding a 16 guage wire thru, then using that
to pull an 18 guage wire AND a Belden strobe cable thru it, even after it
already contained a pair of 16 guage wires.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com (Ross Mickey ) |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
You wrote:
>
>
>>So, I would like to receive some "net wisdom" on the subject. How
many
>>folks are/did apply heat to the skins before riveting? What were the
>>results?
>>
>>
>
>Don't heat the skins, heat the room your skinning in. I skinned my
wings in
>January in New england, and heated my shop up to 95F prior to
skinning. Felt
>goo working in shorts and "T" shirts in the middle of the winter!
>
>Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
>wstucklen(at)aol.com
>
I did the same thing but wondered the whole time if it was doing any
good. Isn't the theory based on the assumption that the skins are
heated ( and therefore expanded) but the underlying framework is cold (
ie. contracted)??? When the shins cool and the framework doesn't, then
a tightening of the skin will occur. If both stuctures are heated,
woun't they both expand and then contract when cooled resulting in no
net tighting affect???
It did feel good to rivet in shorts when it was 30 degrees out!!!!
Ross Mickey
Fighting with fitting F649, F650, F624, and F622. Angles and
measurments don't add up. So thats why its a One-Of-A-Kind!!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
| Subject: | To heat or not to heat |
Re hot skinning, Fred Stucklen recently wrote:
> Don't heat the skins, heat the room your skinning in. I skinned my wings in
> January in New england, and heated my shop up to 95F prior to skinning...
I thought the idea was to heat the skins but NOT the ribs and spar.
It was explained to me that the contraction of the cooling skin over
the unchanging dimensions of the ribs and spar is what makes the skin
taught. Doesn't heating the structural components defeat this? Please
clarify...
-Brian
byablon(at)lanart.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Confirmed Kill |
>FYI for those who were interested in this game,
>The November issue of Computer Life magazine has an article on page 33 about
>Confirmed Kill. It says it is at Domark's Web page at
>http//www.domark.com/domark and that you can download a copy to play. The
>fee is still $2/hr.
Sorry to put this info on the rv-list, but several of you ARE interested in
flight sims...
In the beginning there were two, Domark and ICI, now they have split up and
both are offering Confirmed Kill. If you want to play for free, go to:
http://www.cris.com/~gunjam/
Here you can get instructions on how to download the Sim. By the way, the
new version is out and it is very playable even on my 486/33 I get 19
frames per second in 1024x768 mode!!!!!!
As a side note, I've asked if I can model the RV-3 and add it to the sim.
How many of you RvAtors would like to step into an RV-3 with a cannon and go
mix it up with a Japanese Zero!?
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
>Lets assume that just prior to riveting you set the skins out in the sun
>untill they are nice and hot. The skeleton sits in a nice, cool hanger.
>The skins expand a bit, the skeleton does not. You've checked the
>temperature of the skins by frying one grade A large egg on their
>surface. Guess what: unless you also *drilled all the rivet holes* while
>the skins are hot and the skeleton is cold, aren't the rivet holes off a
>little bit? And tell me, how can you keep that temperature differential
>while you are riveting? Won't the skins cool down and the skeleton heat
>up (due to thermal transfer)?
I agree with you here. Speaking of heat transfer and the described method,
you would have to rivet the entire skin in just a few seconds. We all know
how quickly aluminum transfers heat. Somehow you would need to heat the
skins while you fit, drill the holes and rivet. And at the same time keep
the ribs cool. Althought I'm not so sure the rib temperature is critical.
The majority of the dimensional changes will happen in the skin and the
deformation of the ribs wouldn't really be a factor. (I think) So actually,
heating your shop to 90 isn't a bad idea. Just making sure the skins aren't
cold when fitting, drilling and riveting is probably good enough.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Plains Electric EMS wrote:
> I used what Tom at Van's recommended. 1/2" pvc that is used for hot water
> installations. It's the lightest and worked well for me. I got it at home
> base for about $3.
I used this also I think. This is the grey thinwall stuff, right? Weight
was approx. 4 oz. per wing.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce RV Tool Kit (fwd) |
Avery also has pre-packaged tool kits. I would only buy from Avery or from
Cleveland tools. We all know they have excellent quality.
The same can not be said for other vendors. No telling where ACS gets its stuff.
Herman
>
> I am getting my tool collection ready to start an RV-6. In browsing through
the Aircraft Spruce
> And Specialties catalog, I noticed they had a tool kit they say was initially
designed for
> people building RV's. Includes rivet gun, sets, microstop countersink, bucking
bars, etc.
> Listed for $560.00
>
> Anyone have experience with Aircraft Spruce and this tool kit?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Paul Riedlinger
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Walsh <walsh(at)ranger.ENET.dec.com> |
| Subject: | Heating skins... |
Thanks to Dave Barnhart for saying exactly what I have been thinking all
along. If you heat the skins enough to cause expansion, you have
misaligned the rivet holes. Even as little as .010" would misalign
the holes and prevent a rivet from fitting.
I'm not saying that Dave is right. I am just saying that if heating the
skins works, I don't understand how. I hope that someone can explain it
to me because I would also like to utilize the technique if it is of real
benefit.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
| Subject: | To heat or not to heat |
Re heating wing skins before riveting, Dave Barnhart wrote:
> Guess what: unless you also *drilled all the rivet holes* while
> the skins are hot and the skeleton is cold, aren't the rivet holes off a
> little bit?
When at the RV forum in Fulton, NY in September, Ron Jones and Tom
Wood gave a seminar on wing construction, and said that the skins
should be drilled at room temperature, and heated for riveting. I
asked the same question, and they answered that the skin expands so
little during heating that it is well within the tolerance of the
rivet holes. But when the rivets are driven, their extrusion 'glues'
the skins into the expanded position, and causes them to tighten up on
cooling.
> And tell me, how can you keep that temperature differential
> while you are riveting? Won't the skins cool down and the skeleton heat
> up (due to thermal transfer)?
They recommended painting the skins flat black with cheapo spray
paint, and suspending ceramic or quartz space heaters over the skins
while riveting. Later, you remove the paint with acetone.
-Brian
byablon(at)lanart.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING HEAT-SHRINK
OK, I'm not an enginERR (Dave's spelling). However, this heating thing has
been bugging me for the last couple of days. Dave Barnhart hit the nail
(rivet?) on the head. How are you going to get the holes to align!! Let's do
the numbers. The "average" coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) for
aluminum alloys is 13 millionths of an inch. To find hole misalignment crank
in the CTE formula. i.e. (temperature difference in degrees F) x the CTE x
in).
So if you have a 36" long panel at 100 degrees F and a structure at 60
degrees F the worst-case hole misalignment is going to be .019"! That's
serious misalignment And all of the other holes are going to be off
decreasing amounts as well. Unless you have an off-set-shank-rivet (humor)
you are going to have a real tip-over problem!
Dave, heater-tapes applied to the panel will do the trick but due to the area
of the skin - radiation is probably more of a problem than conduction.
However, your implication is correct - both parts will thermally equilibrate
very quickly. The only thing you could do would be to run
refrigerant(cooling) lines along the structure. What a mess.
Don't know the contents of the RVator article but could someone BRIEFLY sum up
the technique.
Ye Olde Machinist & short-time pilot,
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stephen Bell <steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
>> How many
>> folks are/did apply heat to the skins before riveting? What were the
>> results?
OK, I haven't actually come to skinning my wings yet, but have been involved
with skinning a number of glider trailers. Heating the trailer skins
is the only method we have used which gets consistently good results.
Without heating when the trailer is parked in the hot sun the skins
expand and go a little loose (quite noticeable oil canning/ wrinkling)
[ I'm talking about a trailer built in 10-20deg C being parked in 30plus
deg]
Normally we would have the trailer in the hangar 15-20deg with the
skins outside 18-25deg (the skins get hotter), built like this the
skins look good.
[ A complicating factor here is that the skeleton may be a different
material to the skins with a different thermal expansion coefficient]
> Lets assume that just prior to riveting you set the skins out in the sun
> until they are nice and hot. The skeleton sits in a nice, cool hanger.
This is exectly the way to do it.
> The skins expand a bit, the skeleton does not. You've checked the
> temperature of the skins by frying one grade A large egg on their
> surface. Guess what: unless you also *drilled all the rivet holes* while
> the skins are hot and the skeleton is cold, aren't the rivet holes off a
> little bit?
Yes, but not by enough to put them out of alignment for riveting
I remember checking the thermal expansion coefficient of Al to
work this out, even across the whole wing the skin expansion is
alot less than the rivet diameter
> And tell me, how can you keep that temperature differential
> while you are riveting? Won't the skins cool down and the skeleton heat
> up (due to thermal transfer)?
>
Yes but working one panel at a time with all the holes drilled ready
to go enough of a temp differential exists to make a difference.
>
> On the practical side, a local RV-4 builder tried the heat-the-skins
> method on one wing and not on the other. You cannot tell the difference.
>
Granted, with accurate & careful building can get the same results
by other methods.
I'd be interested to know if there was a difference when
his 4 is parked in hot "desert like" conditions, and what colour
is it painted (white helps here).
Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Stephen Bell |
Lincoln University, \--------------------(*)--------------------/
Canterbury,
New Zealand. NIMBUS II - Driver XX
RV 6 - Growing in the garage.
E-Mail: S.Bell(at)ono.lincoln.ac.nz work
steve(at)discus.lincoln.ac.nz play
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce RV Tool Kit |
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
I bought the Aircraft Spruce RV Tool Kit. I have several observations:
(a) the contents of the kit differed substantially from the list in the
Aircraft Spruce catalogue, (b) the tools themselves are of varying
quality, and (c) there were few or no instructions provided such as one
might expect to receive with tools when they're still in the box. (The
Aircraft Spruce tool kit comprises a plastic tool box with a tray insert
and the tools themselves.) I have been fairly well satisfied except for
two items, the micro-stop countersink and the pop rivet squeezer. The
countersink was very unreliable (unpredictable) and the squeezer closed
once and I could never get it to open again and I wound up throwing it
away when I received a replacement from Avery (a Marson brand, as I
recall). I think my original attraction to the Aircraft Spruce kit was
the fact that it cost less than the sum of the individual tool prices.
But doesn't everyone's? Finally, I think I might choose a somewhat
different mix of tools than in the Aircraft Spruce kit, especially
dimpling dies and rivet sets.
On the other hand, every single tool I've acquired from either Avery or
Cleaveland has been first class. I have also taken advantage of their
willingness to provide advice about tools. For example, in response to my
simple-minded questions, Avery put me onto a deburring tool, which I like a
lot, and Cleaveland persuaded me to try their dimpling dies, which I also
like very much. If I had to do it over again, I'd stick with Avery or
Cleaveland for tools.
Jack Abell
RV-6A Rudder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce RV Tool Kit (fwd) |
Text item:
I HAVE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH A/C SPRUCE IN OTHER BUSINESS. SPEND YOUR MONEY WITH
AVERY. THEY WILL STAND BEHIND THEIR GOODS.
Avery also has pre-packaged tool kits. I would only buy from Avery or from
Cleveland tools. We all know they have excellent quality.
The same can not be said for other vendors. No telling where ACS
gets its stuff.
Herman
>
> I am getting my tool collection ready to start an RV-6. In browsing
through the Aircraft Spruce
> And Specialties catalog, I noticed they had a tool kit they say
was initially designed for
> people building RV's. Includes rivet gun, sets, microstop countersink,
bucking bars, etc.
> Listed for $560.00
>
> Anyone have experience with Aircraft Spruce and this tool kit?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Paul Riedlinger
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com VM: DIERKS at AUSVM6
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 15:09:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce RV Tool Kit (fwd)
From: austin.ibm.com!dierks(at)matronics.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | lewisjw(at)hqsocom.af.mil |
| Subject: | Access to the RV user group |
Dear RV List System Administrator:
I would like to get on your distribution list.
Please advise how I may do so.
Thanks much.
Joe Lewis, 2625 Crestfield Dr, Valrico, FL 33594
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
On Fri, 3 Nov 1995, Stephen Bell wrote:
> I'd be interested to know if there was a difference when
> his 4 is parked in hot "desert like" conditions, and what colour
> is it painted (white helps here).
HA HA! AHAHAHAHAHAHAH! AHAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !
pardon the laughter, but I (and the friend with the RV-4 who heated the
skins for one wing but not the other) live in Phoenix, Arizona. It hit
121 degrees here a few months ago. Our grass doesn't even turn green
until it stays above 60!
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Busick <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
From My way of thinking, the skins expand and contract spanwise
and lenghtwise, the ribs will expand and contract lengthwise, but not at
all
little spanwise. Therefore we would get some benefit from heating the
entire structure (ribs,spar and skins) only in the spanwise dimension.
Bob Busick
RV-6
On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Ross Mickey wrote:
>
> I did the same thing but wondered the whole time if it was doing any
> good. Isn't the theory based on the assumption that the skins are
> heated ( and therefore expanded) but the underlying framework is cold (
> ie. contracted)??? When the shins cool and the framework doesn't, then
> a tightening of the skin will occur. If both stuctures are heated,
> woun't they both expand and then contract when cooled resulting in no
> net tighting affect???
>
> It did feel good to rivet in shorts when it was 30 degrees out!!!!
>
> Ross Mickey
> Fighting with fitting F649, F650, F624, and F622. Angles and
> measurments don't add up. So thats why its a One-Of-A-Kind!!!!
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Steve Day wrote:
> >Lets assume that just prior to riveting you set the skins out in the sun
> >untill they are nice and hot. The skeleton sits in a nice, cool hanger.
> >The skins expand a bit, the skeleton does not. You've checked the
> >temperature of the skins by frying one grade A large egg on their
> >surface. Guess what: unless you also *drilled all the rivet holes* while
> >the skins are hot and the skeleton is cold, aren't the rivet holes off a
> >little bit? And tell me, how can you keep that temperature differential
> >while you are riveting? Won't the skins cool down and the skeleton heat
> >up (due to thermal transfer)?
>
> I agree with you here. Speaking of heat transfer and the described method,
> you would have to rivet the entire skin in just a few seconds. We all know
> how quickly aluminum transfers heat. Somehow you would need to heat the
> skins while you fit, drill the holes and rivet. And at the same time keep
> the ribs cool. Althought I'm not so sure the rib temperature is critical.
> The majority of the dimensional changes will happen in the skin and the
> deformation of the ribs wouldn't really be a factor. (I think) So actually,
> heating your shop to 90 isn't a bad idea. Just making sure the skins aren't
> cold when fitting, drilling and riveting is probably good enough.
>
>
>
> -Steve Day
> sday(at)pharmcomp.com
> (CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Steve Day wrote:
> The majority of the dimensional changes will happen in the skin and the
> deformation of the ribs wouldn't really be a factor. (I think) So actually,
> heating your shop to 90 isn't a bad idea. Just making sure the skins aren't
> cold when fitting, drilling and riveting is probably good enough.
But if the spars are the same temperature as the skins, wouldn't they
expand lengthwise the same amount, thus defeating the whole idea?
Do any of the commercial airplane builders use the skin heating
technique? I wonder if there are any structural considerations here.
Wouldn't really tight skins put a shear preload on the rivets, possibly
reducing the ultimate strength?
Curt Reimer
P.S. I accidentally reposted Steve's original post. Sorry.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING Hot Skins
Geeze...what's real and what isn't? You got glider trailers in New Zealand
and your got "official" RV seminars in Fulton.
The glider trailer most likely has a steel tube frame and aluminum skin. The
skin ADSORBS/CONDUCTS the heat 4X faster than the steel tube frame and EXPANDS
2X greater! No wonder it oil-cans in the sun.
Then the black wing program heats the skins and rivets the whole mess together
in a couple of minutes. Can you do it that fast? If you take any longer
everything will be the SAME temperature and all shrink benefit is lost because
of aluminum's tremendous thermal conductivity.
If you have one piece skins (13ft?) and a 40deg F delta your MISalignment on
the farthest hole will be 0.081". Is that a lot? Just move the ribs -you
say. Sure, you can move each of them into position easily. If they move so
easily then where is all of this great shrink-TENSION comming from to hold
everything tight?
Like all great ideas...they sound good but the implementation is hosed! Be
careful of those cockpit exhaust leaks!
To do it right you would have to (1) Determine the CTE and then factor this in
as a dimensional change for EACH hole location (2) pre-drill all skin holes
using Numerical Control (NC can do No.1 easily). (3) continously chill all
structural parts during the assembly time. (4) continously heat the skins
during the assembly. (5) Now the great fun begins! Stand back and watch the
whole assembly come up to temperature! Opps! you forgot to do finite element
analysis - looks like just a tad too much dihederal (or warp)! Opps, the spar
is now constantly STRESSED! Wonder what's the new G limit!
CTE= ( 6X10e-6) (degF)(in/in)
Aluminum (6061-T6) = 13.5
Steel (AISI1020) = 8.4
Thermal Conductivity of:
Silver 242
Copper 232
Gold 196
Aluminum 130
Iron, pure 41.5
Steel(1%c) 26.2
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
I'm not too sure how you keep the underlying structure cool. Aluminum is one of
the better heat conductors and anyway isn't the alignment set when the holes are
drilled? I just can't beleive that heating skins is a real phenomina...mystery
to me
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | sday(at)pharmcomp.com (Steve Day) |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
>But if the spars are the same temperature as the skins, wouldn't they
>expand lengthwise the same amount, thus defeating the whole idea?
Good point
>Do any of the commercial airplane builders use the skin heating
>technique? I wonder if there are any structural considerations here.
>Wouldn't really tight skins put a shear preload on the rivets, possibly
>reducing the ultimate strength?
Another good point
I wonder how many hidden factors there really are to this whole idea. Is
one better off to just put the whole airplane together at one temperature?
I would think that your preloading concerns could potentially be amplified
when one section is preloaded hot and another section built in cool
temperatures. Could that cool section possible put additional stress on the
preloaded section thus increases the load further? Or is the preloading so
minimal that it really doesn't matter at what temperatures the different
parts are assembled?
I think I'll just avoid the whole subject and re-built my rv with rubber,
that way it doesn't matter how much it expands. hehe
One more thing on a lighter note: (following pun not intended)
How much less would an rv6 weigh if the cavities were filled with Helium.
Wings/fueslage?
That usless trivia question was put there to satisfy the kid in me.
-Having a great time finishing up the left wing!!! :))))))))))
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Speedbrakes, CS props, etc. |
>
>Hmmm...I thought pulling OUT the prop INCREASED the pitch therefore LOWERING
>the RPM. A better glide is because of INCREASED pitch not a FLATTER BLADE
>ANGLE (higher RPM).
>Elon
Ormsby1(at)LLNL.gov
Elon,
How right you are! I probably said it wrong since we were discussing getting
more drag for steeper approaches by going to flat pitch (higher RPM). I
brought it up not just for the landing benefits, but for the safety benefit
of extending the glide should your engine stop (which mine did). I'm sure you
know, but for others considering the CS prop for their RV, what about this?
After you increase the pitch, should you pull up in an attempt to stop the
windmilling to further reduce the drag??..No! At least not until you see you
have overshot your landing site. Windmilling provides just enough oil
pressure to enable the high pitch condition. Stopping the prop will allow it
to go back to flat pitch when the oil pressure decreases. For a fixed pitch
prop however, there is a slight increase in the glide distance after you stop
it
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Michael Baxter <baxter(at)agora.rdrop.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Spar Flange Strips |
We tapered ours with a 10 inch carbide blade on Sears radial arm saw and
it worked great. Nice clean eage right on the line. Cut slowly and clamp
the work to the table.
Brent RV6A tailfeathers nearing completion.
On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 aol.com!CRazer2(at)matronics.com wrote:
> I was tapering my spar flange strips with a new Sears Carbide tipped blade
> designed to cut aluminum and after a few cuts the blade began to throw teeth.
> I lost 11 teeth out the the blade which made it unusable. Is this a problem
> with my sawing technique or is the Sears blade poor quality
>
> Chet Razer
> CRazer2(at)aol.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)Direct.Ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
>One more thing on a lighter note: (following pun not intended)
>How much less would an rv6 weigh if the cavities were filled with Helium.
>Wings/fueslage?
>
>That usless trivia question was put there to satisfy the kid in me.
>
This reminds me of a project I worked on, the program manger wanted to
either fill the tubing with helium or have the gear drop off. Took a couple
of weeks
to get him to drop it, he still thought it was a good idea, but at least we
didn't have to. ;-)))
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | J.Ken_Hitchmough(at)magic.ca (J.Ken Hitchmough) |
| Subject: | RV's & Speed Brakes |
..
>I agree that no one without significant RV flying experience
>(including myself) should consider ANY design changes to a proven airplane
>like an RV. But, Van did put a speedbrake on the airbeetle, and at least
>one company has decided there is enough of a potential market to manufacture
>speed brakes for RVs. Different pilots, different missions.
..
Just to clarify a point..
The speedbrake on the Airbeetle was put on by AIEP, the contractors for the
Nigerian Air Force. It's primary purpose was to enable the trainees to get
down through the layer of dust/smoke that hovers over Nigeria, at a rapid
rate.
On another subject, they also put cotter pins in ALL controls. This was to
allow for the possibility of a binding bearing, in which case the bolt would
turn.
Ken
RV6A
--
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Magic Online Services Toronto Inc. (416) 591-6490
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
> thought the idea was to heat the skins but NOT the ribs and spar.
>It was explained to me that the contraction of the cooling skin over
>the unchanging dimensions of the ribs and spar is what makes the skin
>taught. Doesn't heating the structural components defeat this? Please
>clarify...
My conception of the process is that the skins, when cooled and riveted in
place, are as tight as possible. Maybe heating the structure does defeat some
benifits of the process, but its sure a lot easier to heat everthing rather
than just the skin itself.
The end result sure looks good. I've seen many a Piper Warrior and Cessna
that has a lot more tin canning than my RV-6A. I don't see any deformation in
the my skin shape during flight on hot summer days. I can't say that when
flying a Piper or Cessna.........
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
> thought the idea was to heat the skins but NOT the ribs and spar.
>It was explained to me that the contraction of the cooling skin over
>the unchanging dimensions of the ribs and spar is what makes the skin
>taught. Doesn't heating the structural components defeat this? Please
>clarify...
My conception of the process is that the skins, when cooled and riveted in
place, are as tight as possible. Maybe heating the structure does defeat some
benifits of the process, but its sure a lot easier to heat everthing rather
than just the skin itself.
The end result sure looks good. I've seen many a Piper Warrior and Cessna
that has a lot more tin canning than my RV-6A. I don't see any deformation in
the my skin shape during flight on hot summer days. I can't say that when
flying a Piper or Cessna.........
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov (Becki Orndorff) |
| Subject: | Battery and Starter Cables |
George and Becki Orndorff are now offering battery and starter cables.
Connections are available for 1/4", 5/16", and 3/8" studs on No. 2 copper
wire. The cables are priced at $15.50 plus $.34 per inch plus shipping.
(301) 293-1505
2347 Michael Road
Myersville, MD 21773
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Brian Yablon <brian(at)lanart.com> |
Re: Hot skinning, Elon Ormsby wrote:
> The glider trailer most likely has a steel tube frame and aluminum skin. The
> skin ADSORBS/CONDUCTS the heat 4X faster than the steel tube frame and EXPANDS
> 2X greater! No wonder it oil-cans in the sun.
Hey, this is a good point. Since the spar, ribs and skins are the all
aluminum, they should have the same coefficient of expansion. As
such, wouldn't the spanwise expansion of the spar equal the spanwise
expansion of the skin? And wouldn't the chordwise expansion of the
ribs equal (approximately) the chordwise skin expansion?
So assuming you skin the wing tightly to begin with, you shouldn't
ever see pronounced oil-canning, at least due to thermal effects, right?
I'm beginning to wonder if the oil-canning is a thermal thing, or if
it has to do with the weight of the wing itself. Wings are skinned in
a jig with no bending load on the spar. But when the wing is hung on
an airplane, the weight of the wing causes the spar to bend towards
the ground. This would tend to tighten the top skin and oil-can the
bottom. Is this what happens?
-Brian
byablon(at)lanart.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | rv builders classes |
A weekend (2 day) on RV sheet metal basics is now available in the Dallas -
Fort Worth , Texas area starting in November.
Contact Martin Sutter or Bob Avery at (817) 439-8400 for more information and
class dates, cost etc.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvrqa.cv.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
Steve Day wrote:
: One more thing on a lighter note: (following pun not intended)
: How much less would an rv6 weigh if the cavities were filled with Helium.
: Wings/fueslage?
About 5 lbs on a standard day.
Would the mass be reduced, be the same, or be more?
--
Randy Stockberger
randys(at)cv.hp.com
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Steve Day wrote:
> One more thing on a lighter note: (following pun not intended)
> How much less would an rv6 weigh if the cavities were filled with Helium.
> Wings/fueslage?
I would guess that if you could fill all empty spaces with helium, it
might actually give you 5 or 10 lbs of lift which is (surprisingly)
significant. Of course, with all the access holes, control linkages, etc.
by the time you sealed all the leaks you would have probably added 50 lbs
of proseal and other stuff.
Now if you were to fill the cavities with *hydrogen* you would save even
more weight, and you would have an emergency fuel reserve as well!
This reminds me of an April fool's joke in a model airplane magazine a
few years ago. It was an advertisement for "Heli-Balloons". This was a
composite filler material similar to microballoons except that the
microspheres were filled with helium. It was claimed that the material
could be used as a "tail lightener". A homebuilders dream come true!
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
My two cents worth.
1) If the plane is setting in the hot sun, the top wing skin will
be the hottest and expand the most. The color will have a
big affect on this as well.
Dupont prints a graph. I think Black can get as hot as around
210 degrees F. A white skin will be about 150 to 160 F.
(this is from memory, I looked at these a week or so ago so
don't hold me to the exact numbers).
2) The bottom skin should be much cooler and this will help
keep the internal structure from expanding as much as well.
3) The structure will probably not expand as much as the top skin
as it will take it a much longer time to heat up due
A) to the greater mass of the spar.
B) primer on the skins will insulate the metal some and
the AL will not transfer the heat to the underlying structure
as fast as would bare metal to bare metal.
C) The bottom skins being cooler should help radiate the heat
away from the structure that is being fed in at the top.
4) The rib spacing on most Cessna/Pipers is wider than on a RV.
That may make it look worse.
So, I think there is some heating affect/oil-canning.
It may be minor. It is difficult to work with heated skins.
I agree with all that has been said about the heated skins cooling
when applied to the structure. Some use heat lamps to feed in
heat while riviting.
The simplest would be to ensure the room is warm (not cold) when
doing this work.
Herman Dierks
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Stockberger <randys(at)hpcvrqa.cv.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: To heat or not to heat |
>
> >About 5 lbs on a standard day.
>
> Is this a real estimate?
>
> >Would the mass be reduced, be the same, or be more?
>
> What do you mean here? You mean the total mass of the aircraft? I would
> think with Helium being lighter than air, it would have a total mass less
> than air; therefore the aircraft would have less total mass.
>
> Please explain.
The total mass. The mass that has inertia that you have to fight when
you do one of those 75 degree bank angle - 4 G turns...
> See, I knew there was something to be learned on a stupid question! :)
Just because I wrote it down (using a computer) doesn't make it right...
> -Thanks
>
> -Steve Day
> sday(at)pharmcomp.com
> (CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
>
>
--
Randy Stockberger
randys(at)cv.hp.com
Corvallis, OR
503-715-3589
--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Fuel Flow Meters |
I think I missed some messages on fuel flow meters recently, would someone let
me know their experiences, please. John
(Just started cutting holes in the instrument panel)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TommyLewis(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | reply to heating of skins |
As I was ready to rivet the skins on my wings I asked around of the RVers
with flying machines in the area, the reply from several was to heat the
surface. One of the replies was from an RV4, he did not heat first wing, but
did the second, he claims he can tell the difference. So I heated the
surface using electric heaters and followed the guidelines from the articles
in the collection from the Rviators. I have both top wing skins riveted on,
they look good hanging in the garage. Have ailerons and flaps built, now
hanging these before riveting on bottom skins. Tom
TommyLewis(at)AOL.COM
RV6A project, wings almost done
fuselage on order
N967RV reserved
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | cn755(at)freenet.carleton.ca (Catherine Lamport) |
| Subject: | Fuel Tank Gauges |
I have a question regarding fuel tank senders and gauges purchased
from Vans.
My husband is using fuel quantity gauge Pn IE R8690 and sending
unit IE-F-385B & C. When setting up the float assembly in the
tanks the full position of the sender produced a full gauge
reading, but the empty position on the sender produced a gauge
position of approximately 1/8 full (1/8 of gauge sweep from
empty).
Does anyone have any ideas for an adjustment or fix. Sender unit
arm does travel stop to stop.
Dale & Cathy Lamport
cn755(at)freenet.carleton.ca
RV6-A Wings and Tail almost complete
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Rear Spar Help Needed |
I'm constructing both left and right wing rear spars for a 6A. The plans
call for riveting two stiffeners (W-607E&F) to the aft side of the rear spar.
The plans show 6 rivets installed in the outboard stiffner and 9 rivets
installed in the center stiffner. Hovans plans call for leaving the bottom
rivets out of the stiffners now (a total of 5 rivets per spar) to facilitate
aileron gap seal installation later.
QUESTION: Do I install the rivets now as per the plans or leave them out
until later as per Hovans Instructions?
Chet Razer in Sparta, IL
CRazer2(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | RV-List = Advertising List? |
Folks,
Is it me, or is this list starting to become a private advertising campaign
for the Orndorffs? I understand that their videos are very helpful and am
considering getting them, but lately I have see quite a few plugs from them.
Perhaps they should just offer a catalog and leave it at that. I don't get
this list to see ads. Imagine if Avery and Chicago and Harbor Freight and
??? all started to put plugs here too......
Not intended to be crabby, just wondering about other's perceptions.
- Alan
A. Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net
http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/index.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilla(at)espinc.espinc.com (Michael Pilla) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List? |
| To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
| Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-List = Advertising List?
|
| Is it me, or is this list starting to become a private advertising campaign
| for the Orndorffs? I understand that their videos are very helpful and am
| considering getting them, but lately I have see quite a few plugs from them.
| Perhaps they should just offer a catalog and leave it at that. I don't get
| this list to see ads. Imagine if Avery and Chicago and Harbor Freight and
| ??? all started to put plugs here too......
|
I have no problem with their notes since their reply is always
directly related to a question and there is usually helpful info
within the message in addition to the "advertising".
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 1+ 510-447-9886) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List? |
>--------------
>
>Folks,
>
>Is it me, or is this list starting to become a private advertising campaign
>for the Orndorffs? I understand that their videos are very helpful and am
>considering getting them, but lately I have see quite a few plugs from them.
>Perhaps they should just offer a catalog and leave it at that. I don't get
>this list to see ads. Imagine if Avery and Chicago and Harbor Freight and
>??? all started to put plugs here too......
>
>Not intended to be crabby, just wondering about other's perceptions.
>
>- Alan
> A. Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net
>http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/index.html
>
>--------------
RV-List et al,
While the Orndorffs have been very busy, shall we say, introducing new produces
and promoting them on the RV-List, going back over the last 30 days or so, the
only multiple plug was for the video. The Orndorffs seem like real go-getters
and that's pretty refereshing in today's lazy-assed world. As the
administrator of the RV-List, and the owner of the company that pays the
Internet bill, I don't really have a problem with blatant commercial plugs,
especially when they are from small-time operators that are making a go of it
as a side line. Since my main justification for the $$ spent on the Internet
connectivity for Matronics is to promote my company's products, I too will be
using the RV-List to promote some of the new Matronics products that are
nearing release. I find the Internet and mail lists like the RV-List an
incredible sources of information when I'm looking to buy something. For
example, I just purchased a CNC milling setup. I found more information in
a week of "surf'n the highway" than I could of any other way.
At any rate, obviously the RV-List isn't an advertising fourm, but the offering
of products directly related to RV's or homebuilts is a healthy part of the
normal dialog in my opinion.
I have added a new section to the RV-List FAQ called "Homebuilt Products
Available from Manufactures on the Internet". This section is dedicated to
"brochure-like" promotion of products produced by people like the Orndorffs,
Don Wentz, and myself. I would love to add a detailed description of
George and Becki's products to this section. If you would like to have
something added to this section of the RV-List FAQ, please review the FAQ and
design your product's layout similar to the "Governor Mk III" promo.
Keep up the great information exchange!
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List? |
>
>Folks,
>
>Is it me, or is this list starting to become a private advertising campaign
>for the Orndorffs? I understand that their videos are very helpful and am
>considering getting them, but lately I have see quite a few plugs from them.
>Perhaps they should just offer a catalog and leave it at that. I don't get
>this list to see ads. Imagine if Avery and Chicago and Harbor Freight and
>??? all started to put plugs here too......
>
>Not intended to be crabby, just wondering about other's perceptions.
>
>- Alan
> A. Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net
>http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/index.html
>
You're not alone; I don't want to single them out but they do seem to have
been plugging their products, plane, seminars, etc. Their latest offer of
battery/starter cables for $15.00 plus $0.35/inch, though, is interesting.
I have over 500 feet of 2 gauge wire plus can get end connectors. What if I
was to offer the same cables for $10.00 plus $0.25/inch.
Did you feel like you were reading another ad?? Right-----
Please, let's at least try to limit the ads.
I'd much rather hear about how to build the rear spar or whatever.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List? |
<199511041603.LAA01493(at)clark.net>
| From: | Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org> |
Just one more opinion: I have never seen a communication from the
Orndorffs that didn't seem to be motivated by a helpful spirit. Ads are
one thing; advice from an experienced builder is something else, even when
accompanied by remarks concerning the availability of products related to
RV construction. Moreover, I, for one, appreciate hearing about RV-related
products. I think the more I know about what's available, the better my
choices will be. I value the Orndorffs' participation in this forum and
welcome news of their latest developments. In fact, I would welcome news
of new RV-related products from other sources, e.g., Van's, Avery,
Cleaveland, whomever. Why not?
Jack Abell
RV-6A Rudder
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List? |
OK, I guess it's just my sensitivity. I've watched too many newsgroups and
one mailing list go to trash quickly because of this stuff, plus I am one of
the members of a guidelines committee for a local .forsale group.
Keep on building...
- Alan
Wannabe RV builder and FAQ maintainer for the dc.forsale.* newsgroups
A. Reichert - reichera(at)clark.net
http://www.clark.net/pub/reichera/index.html
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List?? Why not..... |
> Imagine if Avery and Chicago and Harbor Freight and
>all started to put plugs here too......
Reply................
I have been involved with Amateur Radio for a long time now and any direct
discussion of commercial offerings are not allowed there.......
I have always seen this as another way for the government and those that WISH
they could be in power to stifle the average Joe trying to make a better way.
The Orndorffs are quickly becoming as influential and of major substance as
possibly Van himself. Which one of you in the thought police is going to step
up and point out to Van that he should never come on-line and make an
offering?????
George and Becky are welcome in my home, whether that be e-mail or as guests
in the spare room. They are not selling drugs or pornography or trying to get
your kid brother to like other boys. I for one am ashamed that any legitimate
person or group would have to be subjected to this.
GET OFF OF IT AND LETS BUILD AIRPLANES!!!!!
Thanks to the Avery's and Orndorffs and even Van for giving me a better way!
Kevin & Trudy Williams
RV-6A #24438 EMP
PS. I can't believe I have to "fight for the right" even here...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List? |
3 items:
Avery's: Number 1. Good service, good stuff, fair prices.
Tools: I was reminded today how much I use a Sears 6"belt sander with a 60
grit belt. Really takes the Alum. down then a short spell with the
scotchbrite wheel and its done.
Advertising: The ratio of advertising vs good poop is about 90%+ good poop.
In the short time I have been on this board, I have learned a lot from Becki
and George and while the tapes are not perfect, they sure fill a big, big
void. You take the tapes and Frank Justice's instructions and it gives you
confidence that it can be done. After all, Becki and George built a fues. in
5 hours!! Just remember, having pictures is something like flying instruments
under the hood. One peek is worth a 1,000 cross checks! When someone has
something to offer, pitch it out and if the price is right, then a fellow
builder is that much ahead. If I had anything, I sure would. I have seen
someone ask for any tapes (originals). I'm sure if any of us wanted to sell
them we woudn't pass on the opportunity. One thing for sure, if someone
bought something and it was lousy, this group would let all others know about
it!!
Howard Kidwell
howardrv(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV4BILDR(at)aol.com |
Call Vans', he sells conduit that is light weight and designed for that
purpose.
BOL
Mike
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david <102131.2407(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Rear Spar Help Needed |
I just finished mounting my aileron gap seals, and found that I had to trim back
the sections which went over the rear spar stiffeners in order to avoid the gap
seal from being stressed by stepping up onto the stiffenner. I trimmed them
back to point where they would naturally be meeting the surface of the stiffener
plate. This resulted in rivets through the gap seal and stiffener amd spar
which were above the bottom row of rivets which you were concerned about (no
interference) and below the upper rows of rivets. Hope this helps. Don't know
what anyone else has done.
Rick Solana, RV-6a
almost finished wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-List = Advertising List?? Why not..... |
>
>George and Becky are welcome in my home, whether that be e-mail or as guests
>in the spare room. They are not selling drugs or pornography or trying to get
>your kid brother to like other boys. I for one am ashamed that any legitimate
>person or group would have to be subjected to this.
>
> GET OFF OF IT AND LETS BUILD AIRPLANES!!!!!
>
>Thanks to the Avery's and Orndorffs and even Van for giving me a better way!
>
>Kevin & Trudy Williams
>RV-6A #24438 EMP
>
>PS. I can't believe I have to "fight for the right" even here...
>
Ouch. I guess I've been told off. Ok, Ads are ok. Since ads are ok, then
let me mention again that I do have access to a lot of aviation grade wire.
Our EAA chapter obtained several reels of wire in sizes from #2 to #22, both
single strand and multi-conductor. I can make up battery cable or supply
the raw wire. We're charging $1.50/pound plus shipping.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bruce Oliver <75274.3426(at)compuserve.com> |
Anything related to RV building is welcome. This is my first time to say
anything. I have completed the tail feathers and waiting to get my wings. By the
way, the easyest thing in the world is called the delete button, if you don't
like something. I like what the Orndorfs have done. Keep it up. Now don't you
think we can get on with the building? Happy thanksgiving to all.
October 23, 1995 - November 04, 1995
RV-Archive.digest.vol-at