RV-Archive.digest.vol-az
January 18, 1996 - January 25, 1996
>prop worth the extra weight for mild aerobatics. I am concerned about
>weight and the 1325 max allowable weight for aerobatic maneuvers.
It depends somewhat on configuration. Dry weights for the 0-320 vary from
244 to 265 lbs. 0-360 is 265 to 348.
The 0-320-D1A and 0-360-A1A (the engines that Van's sells) are 255 and 265
respectively. 10lbs for 10hp isn't too bad of a tradeoff.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca (Shirley Hobenshield) |
| Subject: | Vapour return system on RV6 |
I am at the fuel line installation stage. Having read all about fuel line
vapours and the problems with it, I intend to install blast tubes and
firesleeves where applicable. Most of all the article by Don Child in
RVator 92-31 about his vapour return line system makes sense to me, also
Van's comment at the end of the article, where he thinks the return line
should go all the way back into the fuel tank, in order to better condense
all the vapours again.
I was all set planning the routing of the vapour retun line back to the
right wing tank, when some doubts entered my mind. Suppose you are flying
along using fuel from the left tank, (without vapours) a steady fine stream
of fuel from the .030 orifice will flow back into the right wing tank. If
that fuel tank ins full it will push the fuel out the vent tube going
overboard. If the tank is empty it would transfer some of the fuel from
the left tank into the right tank emptying the left tank quicker.
Of course, one could switch the return line to the tank you are using, but
that would complicate the installation and require more fuel management.
My motto being K.I.S.S. maybe I should follow Don Child's sketch? Or maybe
the .030" fuel stream is too little to amount to anything?
Any contributions or suggestions would be welcome.
Ray Heaussler
shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Auto Engines |
This is just another example of government regulation gone mad. The idea
here is to make a paper trail for the part and assure it's quality. This is
all well and good, except for a few problems. First it will kill a business
if it goes to far. Second it makes products so expensive that it draws the
criminal element. So what we have now are people makeing bogus $32.00 bolts
and selling them as the real thing. If they were not so expensive they would
not be worth counterfitting.
This sort of thing (criminal activity) shows up everywhere the government
has forced an artificially high price. It happened during prohabition with
alcohol, it is happening right now with "the war on drugs". Sooner or later
we are going to have to face the fact that too much of a good thing is bad.
Perhaps we will wake up when drive-by shootings start happening at aircraft
supply companys.
Chris
> I'd like to take a stab at the reason for high cost. I'm not a lawyer, but
> I do make aircraft parts and tooling for a living. It's all centered around
> the word "certified", which apparently some people think means: "Well, we
> did a pretty damn good job making this, so we'll certify it for aircraft
> use", or that certification means that you have the FAA's approval to sell
> the beast.
>
> The last company I worked for made lots of sheet metal and extrusion parts
> (I programmed the turret punch press that Van's has recently discovered.
> BTW, they've been around for 30 years now...), all "certified".
>
> Put briefly, if a plane crashes (lets say a 747 has a shear pin failure and
> the motor falls off), the crash investigators find that part and begin
> tracing it's origin. It is possible to trace that part clear back to which
> hole in the ground the ore was dug from, locate the foundry where it was
> poured, rolled, extruded, etc., and to find out any machine shop that
> performed ANY operation to that part. That includes all minor operations
> including deburring, and includes the names of workers and dates they worked
> on the part.
>
> Airplane parts aren't like stove parts (yes, I did teach my grandma to suck
> eggs...). If you're supposed to make 30 parts and you start out with 33
> pieces of rough sawed material but you screw up 5 of them, you can't simply
> go get a few more pieces of material and "make up" the order. BIG NO, NO!
> You finish the parts in your batch, and document what happened to the bad
> parts. You also don't just toss the scrap parts, because you have to be
> accountable for them.
>
> In our machine shop when material shows up, we send a sample to be
> "certified" (there's that word again). Just because we're standing over a
> big pallet of .063 2024-T3 250/4 doesn't mean that some loser didn't stamp
> the stuff wrong at the mill. Each sample of material comes from individual
> batch lots (which in turn were made on different days in different mills,
> and came from different holes in the ground... You get the picture).
>
> Likewise, lot's of parts must be sent out to heat treat or age or paint, etc
> at places that are (get this) "certified" to do business for the customer.
>
> You are also subjected to random audits. On any given day, an inspector can
> come in and wander around your shop. He checks on the work in process.
> What's that? You have 36 parts on your bench and are supposed to have 32?
> Big trouble. You have 7 parts on a bench with no paperwork? Your dial
> calipers were supposed to be re-calibrated two days ago? Uh-oh.
>
> Doing business this way is difficult, exacting and expensive.
>
>
> ---AND---
>
>
> >"I also wonder why they can't manufacture a second version of the engine that
> >isn't stamped 'certified', but for all practical purposes is."
>
> I believe they did. Others can and will correct me, but I understand that
> Lycoming made Ground Power Units that ran on 0320 or 0360 type motors. Of
> course it wouldn't be certified, carry a log book, etc. They are found on
> the market, and experimental flyers put them on planes. If I owned a GPU,
> which I needed to make electricity and not haul my family aloft, I would be
> tempted to slap one together cheaply out of "red-tagged" parts. You can get
> them for scrap value -- once they are released from certification...
> ;)
>
> ---AND---
>
> >
> > Product liability insurance for a certified motor is obscene - what do
> >you think it would be for a un-certified motor? Try "unavailable"!
> >
> Like another poster pointed out, the only way to survive in a legally
> hostile environment is to incorporate, stay small and don't carry insurance.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Alex Munro
> amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com
>
>
>
> My other Sig is a P220
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
| Subject: | Subscribing to the RV-List (Was: Mazda powered RV-4) |
>--------------
>Have received several relayed messages (via E-mail at my compuserve address)
>about getting on the rv-list. Several people expressed interest in finding out
>more info on my Mazda rotary powered RV-4. At 172 flight hours it is doing well
>and I continue to slowly increase the cruise power as I gain confidence in it.
>Top speed is now about the same as 160 Lyc powered RVs (202 mph)
>
>Don't know the ropes on the rv-list so I'm sort of sending this message into the
>blind. If anyone wants more info on the engine or aircraft, I'd be glad to
>answer questions.
>
>E-mail me at 71175.606(at)compuserve.com
>Is there a way for me to directly access rv-list from compuserve?
>
>Regards to all, Tracy Crook
>
>--------------
Hi Tracy,
To Subscribe to the RV-List, send an email message to:
"rv-list-request(at)matronics.com"
and place the word "subscribe" in the *body* of the message on a line
all by itself. *Do Not* send subscribe messages to "rv-list(at)matronics.com";
sending messages to the actual List *will not* subscribe you to the List,
it will only resend your subscribe message out the the over 400 people on
the List!
Hope to see ya 'round the List...
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "JCarbee" <JCARBEE(at)ic1d.Harris.COM> |
| Subject: | RV-6A TAIL KIT FOR SALE |
RV-6A TAIL KIT FOR SALE
INCLUDES PLANS AND ELECTRIC TRIM SERVO OPTION
KIT IS 25% COMPLETE. EXCELLECT WORKMANSHIP
$1000 CALL 407-768-9696 OR JCARBEE(at)HARRIS.COM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Derek J. Lang" <langd(at)teleport.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Thanks for Rivet help and Compressors |
>About compressors....
>My compressor (6hp 60 gal twin cyl belt drive) is located in my garage which
>is about 20 feet from my house and shop. The garage is insulated (but not
>heated). I ran 1" pvc cold water pipe from the compressor to the house and
>buried it 12 inches deep. Once the line enters the house it goes into a
>manifold with three outlets. Each outlet has its own regulator so that the
>presure may be different for each hose. Total cost of the setup (minus
>compressor) was about 20 bucks for the pvc pipe and fittings. The regulators
>were given to me by a friend. Pvc works well for this and will hold the
>100psi from the compressor with no problem. With the compressor in the garage
>I can never hear it running unless I am outside, and then it is just a
>muffled low rumble. I wish I could get my rivet gun and die grinder this
>quiet.
>
Here is an excerpt from a consultation report that was recently sent to me
that may be of interest regarding the set-up you have described.
"PVC pipe was used to supply compressed air to some of the equipment in the
lab. PVC pipe is brittle, and at low temperatures or under stress can
explode, sending sharp fragments into the work environment, exposing workers
to serious injury.
Recommended Action - A suitable replacement for PVC pipe is any nonmetallic
pipe meeting ANSI Standard B31.8 and listed by the manufacturer for air line
service. The only ductile plastic pipe known to be approved is
acrylonitrile butadiene-styrene (ABS) pipe which is listed by the
manufacturer as meeting air line service requirements and ASTM standard
D3965-80. When installed according to the manufacturer's specifications, ABS
pipes can carry up to a maximum of 100 psi without possible failure."
Derek
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
"Doubt, of whatever kind, can be ended in action alone." (Thomas Carlyle)
"I owe much; I have nothing. I give the rest to the poor." (Francois Rabelais)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engines Weights |
> It depends somewhat on configuration. Dry weights for the 0-320 vary from
> 244 to 265 lbs. 0-360 is 265 to 348.
>
> The 0-320-D1A and 0-360-A1A (the engines that Van's sells) are 255 and 265
> respectively. 10lbs for 10hp isn't too bad of a tradeoff.
>
> -- Ed Bundy
>
Somebody told me that the O-320 with wood prop is the best combination for
aerobatics, because of having less weight up front. I assumed they were
referring to the extra weight of the O-360 engine, but from what you say
the CS prop (at 50 lb?) is the main weight problem. Is that correct?
I'd like to have a good combination of climb/cruise performance *and*
reasonable aerobatic performance. What's the best combination for that
(let's assume cost is not a factor, for the moment)?
If the weight of a CS prop is such a factor, what about an O-360 with a
wood prop? Is that even possible?
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
--not yet started--
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Turbine Power |
> >>You may have solved my dilemma: how to get my RV to the geographic north
> >>pole. Avgas isn't available north of Cambrige Bay, NWT !
> >
> >hehe. Are you serious? Please educate me as to why Avgas is not avail. Is
> >there a problem at extreme low temps? Or is it one of those "Next Rest Stop
> >2000 miles" :-) Meaning no pumps at all.
> >
> You guys need to watch a few National Geographic programs about Canada's
> north. Its a fairly empty spot, and more and more so the further north you
> go. Most people who need avgas make their own arragements for a fuel cache
> in 45 gallon drums, but it is very expensive to ship. Beautiful country though.
I've flown there, that's how I know there's no avgas available north of
Cambridge Bay. The remark was facetious, but an RV with extra fuel
capacity and using jet fuel could do it. Maybe my second RV...
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engines Weights -Reply |
I am contemplating the same questions for
several months now but there is more to the
decision than the wieght and power.
In my opinion for any semi-serious cross
country 38 gals of fuel is a bit light.
O360 I have flown seem to burn 9-10
gallons per hour. The 20 hp only gets you a
couple of mph of cruise. Climb is where the
HP really helps.
Everythings a compromise.
The wisdon I get from owners is get what
ever engine is the best all around deal.
>>> 01/18/96 08:58am
>>>
you write:
> Can someone tell me what is the weight
difference between the O-360
> and O-320. Is the O-360 worth the extra
weight? Is the O-360 with C/S
>prop worth the extra weight for mild
aerobatics. I am concerned about
>weight and the 1325 max allowable weight
for aerobatic maneuvers.
It depends somewhat on configuration. Dry
weights for the 0-320 vary from
244 to 265 lbs. 0-360 is 265 to 348.
The 0-320-D1A and 0-360-A1A (the engines
that Van's sells) are 255 and 265
respectively. 10lbs for 10hp isn't too bad
of a tradeoff.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Auto Engines |
Chris:
Philosphically and politically I sympathize with your point of view, but
I don't think there is an easy way out. Consider auto racing, an activity
that is *potentially* dangerous for much the same reasons that aviation
is. There is essentially no government regulation in auto racing. This
has resulted in two phenomena.
The first is that the high-end race sanctioning bodies (IndyCar, for
example) require processes similar to avaition certification processes for
critical components. Even where they don't, experienced race engineers
and crew chiefs use aviation materials and components. The aerospace
industry has been a real boon to the auto racing industry! There are a
few exeptions. Aeroquip offers a line of hoses and fittings specifically
for the auto racing market; they are similar to their avaition products,
and I believe they are generally less expensive (though still far from
cheap). This is rather like the uncertified Lycoming idea that someone
suggested.
The second phenomenon is that race cars have evolved to have very high
crash survivability. This is practical in a race car, but not nearly so
practical in an airplane. It is also possible to control the objects that
race cars crash into; not so with airplanes, obviously.
The best solution is probably to rely on self-regulation as much as is
possible. Since it is unrealistic to expect people to be knowledgable
about all technical aspects of aviation just to fly for pleasure, this
self-regulation has to be collective to some extent. That's what the EAA
is all about, it seems to me.
At the moment, aircraft engines are on the "government" side of the line,
and auto engines are on the "self" side. But the "self" side isn't nearly
as well established for engines as it is for airframes. That will probably
come with time.
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
>
> This is just another example of government regulation gone mad. The idea
> here is to make a paper trail for the part and assure it's quality. This is
> all well and good, except for a few problems. First it will kill a business
> if it goes to far. Second it makes products so expensive that it draws the
> criminal element. So what we have now are people makeing bogus $32.00 bolts
> and selling them as the real thing. If they were not so expensive they would
> not be worth counterfitting.
> This sort of thing (criminal activity) shows up everywhere the government
> has forced an artificially high price. It happened during prohabition with
> alcohol, it is happening right now with "the war on drugs". Sooner or later
> we are going to have to face the fact that too much of a good thing is bad.
> Perhaps we will wake up when drive-by shootings start happening at aircraft
> supply companys.
>
> Chris
>
>
> > I'd like to take a stab at the reason for high cost. I'm not a lawyer, but
> > I do make aircraft parts and tooling for a living. It's all centered around
> > the word "certified", which apparently some people think means: "Well, we
> > did a pretty damn good job making this, so we'll certify it for aircraft
> > use", or that certification means that you have the FAA's approval to sell
> > the beast.
> >
> > The last company I worked for made lots of sheet metal and extrusion parts
> > (I programmed the turret punch press that Van's has recently discovered.
> > BTW, they've been around for 30 years now...), all "certified".
> >
> > Put briefly, if a plane crashes (lets say a 747 has a shear pin failure and
> > the motor falls off), the crash investigators find that part and begin
> > tracing it's origin. It is possible to trace that part clear back to which
> > hole in the ground the ore was dug from, locate the foundry where it was
> > poured, rolled, extruded, etc., and to find out any machine shop that
> > performed ANY operation to that part. That includes all minor operations
> > including deburring, and includes the names of workers and dates they worked
> > on the part.
> >
> > Airplane parts aren't like stove parts (yes, I did teach my grandma to suck
> > eggs...). If you're supposed to make 30 parts and you start out with 33
> > pieces of rough sawed material but you screw up 5 of them, you can't simply
> > go get a few more pieces of material and "make up" the order. BIG NO, NO!
> > You finish the parts in your batch, and document what happened to the bad
> > parts. You also don't just toss the scrap parts, because you have to be
> > accountable for them.
> >
> > In our machine shop when material shows up, we send a sample to be
> > "certified" (there's that word again). Just because we're standing over a
> > big pallet of .063 2024-T3 250/4 doesn't mean that some loser didn't stamp
> > the stuff wrong at the mill. Each sample of material comes from individual
> > batch lots (which in turn were made on different days in different mills,
> > and came from different holes in the ground... You get the picture).
> >
> > Likewise, lot's of parts must be sent out to heat treat or age or paint, etc
> > at places that are (get this) "certified" to do business for the customer.
> >
> > You are also subjected to random audits. On any given day, an inspector can
> > come in and wander around your shop. He checks on the work in process.
> > What's that? You have 36 parts on your bench and are supposed to have 32?
> > Big trouble. You have 7 parts on a bench with no paperwork? Your dial
> > calipers were supposed to be re-calibrated two days ago? Uh-oh.
> >
> > Doing business this way is difficult, exacting and expensive.
> >
> >
> > ---AND---
> >
> >
> > >"I also wonder why they can't manufacture a second version of the engine that
> > >isn't stamped 'certified', but for all practical purposes is."
> >
> > I believe they did. Others can and will correct me, but I understand that
> > Lycoming made Ground Power Units that ran on 0320 or 0360 type motors. Of
> > course it wouldn't be certified, carry a log book, etc. They are found on
> > the market, and experimental flyers put them on planes. If I owned a GPU,
> > which I needed to make electricity and not haul my family aloft, I would be
> > tempted to slap one together cheaply out of "red-tagged" parts. You can get
> > them for scrap value -- once they are released from certification...
> > ;)
> >
> > ---AND---
> >
> > >
> > > Product liability insurance for a certified motor is obscene - what do
> > >you think it would be for a un-certified motor? Try "unavailable"!
> > >
> > Like another poster pointed out, the only way to survive in a legally
> > hostile environment is to incorporate, stay small and don't carry insurance.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Alex Munro
> > amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com
> >
> >
> >
> > My other Sig is a P220
> >
> >
>
>
___________________________________________________________________________
Tedd McHenry
Technical Writer e-mail: tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Compuserve: 75320,215
IDACOM Telecom Operation phone: (403) 430-2603
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada fax: (403) 430-2772
http://www.idacom.hp.com/web_doc2/People/internal/tedd/index.html
___________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
*** sent privately ***
>Hello RVers.
>
>My name is John Flaherty.
>I plan on building an RV6A and do have a few questions.
>
>I have been reading the priming discussion. Many suggest to those with
>specific questions to call the manufacturer and this is all well and good
>but I am in a position where I can choose. I would like to hear what
>you would do if you could choose. I am interested in corrosion protection
>with minimal work. It sounds like epoxy primer might be the solution.
>Is there a problem with riveting together two pieces that have this stuff
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sandwiched between?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
John,
... this is the required standard for military aircraft. It's
required that there is a paint layer between parts that are riveted, since
moisture can wick into the joint, and would take a long while to evaporate
off.
I personally prefer (actually is the MIL-Spec. for Navy fighters)
* Acid etch
* Alodine
* Epoxy primer to MIL-23377 (DP70 meets this), or the McDonald-Douglas
spec. primer from Aircraft Spruce (was called AKZO primer, but is now made
by Dexter), which is a little easier to use. The paint film needs to be
only 0.0015 inch thick, which is almost transparent.
If you want less work, the Alodine step can be dropped with little
effect.
Acid Etching and Alodining are quite easily carried out using the
cheap plastic spray bottle idea discussed previously in the RV-list. Just
rinse well and make sure the surface is dry before painting. The
effectiveness of the acid etch step is checked with a "water break" test.
The rinse water must sheet over the entire part, any greasy areas will
cause a "break" in the water film and be easy to see. It's sort of the
inverse of what you want after waxing your car, where water beading is good
... :^)
Hope this helps ....
Gil Alexander
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
>
>Also, Is there anyone on this list in the Denver area willing to show off
>their plane and/or project?
>
>--
>
>
>-- John
>
>John Flaherty | Internet: jwf(at)evolving.com
>Evolving Systems, Inc. | Phone-Net: (303) 689-1327
>8000 E. Maplewood Ave. |
>Englewood, CO 80111 | Something really witty goes here...
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward) |
| Subject: | RMI microEncoder ?? |
I've been reading the brochure on the Rockey Mountain Instrument
microEncoder. For those that are not familiar with this device, it is not
only a mode C encoder, it also provides IAS, TAS, AS trend, density and
pressure altitude, vertical speed, OAT, alarms for speed arcs, ... and a
few other things all in an 3.2 " round instrument.
Questions:
1. Are those using this device happy with it?
2. Are you using it for your primary VFR instruments, i.e., no analog backup?
3. Do you get raised eyebrows from the FAA inspectors if don't have analog
backups?
I recognize that this instrument has two single point failures for three
important flight parameters: an electrical failure or a static system
failure. But for a VFR aircraft it doesn't seem like a big deal. I am
attracted to the instrument because it will save a lot of panel space in my
RV4 and it appears cheap relative to individual instruments: $849 kit,
$1149 built. Also I like the idea of building it, understanding it, and
having a detailed shop manual for it.
-- Rich
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
You wrote:
>
> And, the wings look so much better without that seam in the middle.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>> Fred Stucklen wrote:
>>
>> > UhOh, a one piece top skin on the wing. That sounds likea major
change from
>> > Van's design. Have you talked to them about what this will do to
wing
>> > stiffness? And/or the resulting changes in stresses elswhere in
the aircraft?
>> > I think I remember readig here or somewhere else about an
accident involving
>> > a wood airplane with plywood skins that crashed because the
builder used a
>> > single thickness skin in place of the two piece, different
thickness skins,
>> > of the original design.
>> >
>> > Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
>> > wstucklen(at)aol.com
>> >
>> The single piece top skin was (is?) an option directly from Van's
Aircraft.
>> It replaces the inboard .032 and outboard .025 with a single piece
.032.
>> Thus, the plane is actually stronger, but a little bit heavier. I
believe
>> posts in the past have indicated an additional 2 pounds per side.
This
>> additional weight is pretty well right on the cg so it doesn't
affect
>> loading considerations, just useful load. I generally do all the
lightning
>> holes that I am allowed (for instance, the aileron spar) to try to
make
>> up for some of the extra weight.
>>
>> Doug Medema RV-6A working on the ailerons
>> dougm@physio-control.com
>>
>Chris,
Is the one piece skin option also prepunched??
Ed Cole
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
Regarding John Flaherty's question about primers:
I don't blame you for not wanting to get a masters degree in aircraft
coating technology just to find out what to prime your RV with. Here's
what I do -- it's probably overkill, I don't recommend it for everyone
but I decided early on I wanted the best corrosion protection I could
get. You said you wanted "minimal work", so this may not be the ticket
for you since it's not self-etching so it requires more prep work. But
this discussion will hopefully help you decide either way.
I use 2 part epoxy primer from Courtauld's Aerospace. It's the stuff
they prime Boeing jets with. It's very tough and hard to scratch once
it's cured. It sticks quite well, although it's not self-etching and
you should etch with either Alumiprep* or scotch-brite pads first.
Personally I do Alumaprep, then Alodyne* then prime. The primer is a
one coat deal, no topcoat necessary. You can from what I've heard use
pretty much any kind of finish paint over it so you could use it to
prime the outside of your plane as well even if you,re not sure what
you're going to paint it with.
(Alimiprep is phosphoric acid based aluminum etch/cleaner. Alodyne is
an aluminum conversion coating. Both are brushed on, sprayed on or
dippd in, then rinsed off with water. Both are available from Aircraft
Spruce and Specialty)
One thing I really like about it is that once I've primed something
with it, I don't really have to worry any more about scratching the
part. I primed all my wing and fuselage parts before doing much of
any work on them (save for smoothing the edges) for this reason.
It's kind of expensive -- last time I looked I think it was around $80
for two gallons, although Variprime I think is pretty expensive too.
They will give a discount (20%?) if you get six kits. You should also
get a gallon of the thinner as it makes it go on smoother. If you use
it properly you might be able to get your plane done with just one kit
(2 gallons) but I used 2 (4 gals).
I haven't experienced any problems with the thickness of the paint
between riveted pieces. If you do it right it goes on pretty thin,
however I don't always do it right :-( . It remains to be seen I guess
whether I could get working rivets in places where the primer is too
thick, although it's so tough and the rivets squeeze so hard that I
don't think it will be a problem.
I don't have the part number for the stuff (I just e-mailed it to Rob
Lee though -- Rob, you still have that?). But if you ask for their
MIL-SPEC 2 part epoxy primer they'll probably know what you're talking
about. Numbers: 1-800-332-7686 (coatings div) or 206-483-3999
(Seattle distribution plant).
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
evolving.com!John.Flaherty(at)matronics.com (John Flaherty) writes:
>
>Also, Is there anyone on this list in the Denver area willing to show off
>their plane and/or project?
>
>
John, Give a call to Larry Vetterman, just South of Denver, 303/932-0561.
Jim Stugart Austin, TX
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
> Is the one piece skin option also prepunched??
No. I used single piece top skins, but I wouldn't now that the two
piece skins are pre-punched. I don't think the advantage of no seam is
enough to offset the disadvantages of no pre-punched, extra weight.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
> >Chris,
> Is the one piece skin option also prepunched??
> Ed Cole
> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
Nice try. Not only are they not prepunched, you have to go to
North Plains and pick them up. Vans won't deliver. This is really not a
option, but if you really want them, you can get them. It is sort of an
optional option.
I am just finsihing my wings, and the number
of times I have had the skins on and off, would have made a one piece
skin a real pain, at least for my garage and set up. The one peice skins
are heavier, harder to work with (prime, clean, drill to the wing, not
prepuched) and all just to eliminate a panel line? When I was building
R/C scale aircraft, we went to extrordinary measures to simulate the true
scale panel lines. Now we are all trying to hide them and make our
planes look like plastic airplanes! Just my opinion, if I wanted my RV
to look like a plastic airplane, I would have bought a plastic airplane kit!
Bob Busick
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
> > Is the one piece skin option also prepunched??
> Ed Cole
> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
> >
>
>
I have no idea, but after putting on my first main skin, I would have to say
that it was one of the most easy steps of the wing assembly process. I was
able to mount the skin in place, trim the tank/LE section to fit, mark the rib
positions on the inside of the skin, remove the skin, drill the pilot holes and
remount the skin and drill the tibs in less that 7 hours. The prepunched skins
would have been a big help during the tank/LE construction, but the main
skin is soooooooo EZ that I don't think it would save any time.
BTW, If anybody out there is about to put the top main skin(s) on, the process
I described above works great. I used duct tape on the inside of the wing
to hold the skin against the ribs as I marked the location on the ribs. After
removeing the skin and makring/drilling the pilot holes and replaceing the skin
on the wing, the ribs were no more than a few thousanths off. I wouldn't use
any other method.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Randall comments:
> I use 2 part epoxy primer from Courtauld's Aerospace. It's the stuff
> they prime Boeing jets with. It's very tough and hard to scratch once
> it's cured. It sticks quite well, although it's not self-etching and
> you should etch with either Alumiprep* or scotch-brite pads first.
Agreed! But "self-etching" isn't the last word it making it stick.
For small parts and jobs, I use a rattle can of Marhyde self-etching
primer. It's stick performance is far worse than the Courtauld's
epoxy--etch or no etch! Epoxies just seem to stick really well.
Cal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Immelmann(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: I bought an engine |
Dave,
radio
>mis-communication between aircraft or aircraft/controllers due to poorly
>enunciated call signs, and/or bad radios or reception? Choosing easily said
>and understood numerics and alphabetics can help this problem. I personally
>favor 4 character call signs if you can get them, since it's less tempting
to
>truncate during an exchange with a controller. "Fiver" , "niner" , and
>"zero" also are particularly hard to distort. I also like the two syllable
>alphabetics. Just my opinion. As you are probably aware, you will be
>allowed to list several choices in rank order.
I've had controlers mix up "zero" and "zulu" on me. I always thought it ought
to be "zebra" instead.
Good luck,
Ed
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joehine(at)mi.net (joehine) |
| Subject: | Re: Vapour return system on RV6 |
>I am at the fuel line installation stage. Having read all about fuel line
>vapours and the problems with it, I intend to install blast tubes and
>firesleeves where applicable. Most of all the article by Don Child in
>RVator 92-31 about his vapour return line system makes sense to me, also
>Van's comment at the end of the article, where he thinks the return line
>should go all the way back into the fuel tank, in order to better condense
>all the vapours again.
>
>I was all set planning the routing of the vapour retun line back to the
>right wing tank, when some doubts entered my mind. Suppose you are flying
>along using fuel from the left tank, (without vapours) a steady fine stream
>of fuel from the .030 orifice will flow back into the right wing tank. If
>that fuel tank ins full it will push the fuel out the vent tube going
>overboard. If the tank is empty it would transfer some of the fuel from
>the left tank into the right tank emptying the left tank quicker.
>
>Of course, one could switch the return line to the tank you are using, but
>that would complicate the installation and require more fuel management.
>My motto being K.I.S.S. maybe I should follow Don Child's sketch? Or maybe
>the .030" fuel stream is too little to amount to anything?
>
>Any contributions or suggestions would be welcome.
>
>Ray Heaussler
>shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
>
>
>
Ray,
I installed a vapour return line in my 4 as described in the RVator article
you mentioned. I too wondered about the problem of fuel going into an
already full tank. I felt there was a number of solutions. I first must
say that the aircraft is not flying yet so I don't know how the system will
work. I installed a shut off valve and will only use the system when I feel
vapor lock is a possible problem. I realise this is another thing to think
about but especially if auto fuel is in your future I think it is worth it.
I don't know if the shut off valve is necessary, the system could possibly
work fine without one. I intend to burn fuel from the right tank first and a
few minits of running should provide room for the small amount of fuel that
will be pumped into the tank from the very small return line.
I know a number of RV's here in canada that burn avgas only and have had no
problems with vapour lock. I also have friends that had a RV4 and had a
power failure with 9 hours on the aircraft. They managed to land on a road
with no damage and after they towed the aircraft to the airfield the engine
started and ran fine. They retrofitted the normal fixes (blast tubes etc.)
and had no further problems.
Auto fuel here in Canada especially in the winter is refined with a lower
reed vapour pressure to help cold starting.(the fuel vaporizes eazier). If
some of this fuel is used in an aircraft at warmer temperatues, as in the
spring, and high altitudes, vapour lock in flight is a strong possibility.
My personal feelings are that a return system is a good addition to any RV.
Hope this helps
Joe
Joe Hine
joehine(at)mi.net
506-452-1072 Home
506-452-3495 Work
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Carolynn E Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu> |
Bob
Yes you can enclose the compressor in a box, just make it larger than the
compressor and put in some air holes on the bottom sides and top sides.
The holes can be covered with thin foam to dampen the noise, and they
don't need to be large.
Please consider ditching any ideas about direct drice oilless
compressors, they raise enough noise to raise the dead. On the inside of
the box line it with knobby foam )sometimes refferred to as 'titty'
foam.I have a 3 HP with a 20 gal tank whisc is plenty big except for long
air grinder useage. Good luck,
Fred Hiatt, RV-6A
On 14 Jan 1996, Robert Acker wrote:
> Well, I bought a house yesterday so now I *finally* have a garage to build in!
> I have some questions about compressors and noise, which hopefully some of you
> gurus can answer. I am moving into a community of freestanding townhouses.
>
> 1) Any ideas on insulating the garage for compressor and riveting noise? Is
it
> okay to build a box for the compressor, or will heat build-up be a problem?
>
> 2) Quietest compressor types (someone here a few months ago mentioned
> beltless)?
>
> 3) Home Depot had some Cambell-Hausfield (sp?) compressors. One, a 4hp-20 gal.
> The other 6hp-60 gal. There is only a $60 difference between the two.
>
> I know the 4hp is more than adequate, but will the 60 gal. tank make a big
> difference in the amount of time the compressor runs? If so, that would really
> help in regards to noise abatement.
>
> Thanks, Rob (waiting for escrow to close so I can order my tail kit!).
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
> And, the wings look so much better without that seam in the middle.
>
> Chris
Chris, I agree, the one piece skins do look better. I ordered 2 sets for
the 6-A I'm building now and the next 6 I build. Built my RV-6 to plans and
the overlap turned out OK, this one piece just looks better. As to the
additional 4 lbs, I'll just stay on the Nordic Track a little longer.
Another idea to make a smoother looking skin would be a butt joint with a
doubler. I saw a very nice job on a RV-4 last year, I believe at Van's
homecoming but might have been OSH. I didn't get a chance to talk to the
builder to find out if he butted two pieces of .032" or used the .032-.0025"
that came in the kit. Using a butt joint with either combination of skins
would eliminate the additional cost of building a special crate and the
additional shipping costs. You would probably delete the pre-punched skins.
Anyway, might be worth looking in to. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
>> >Chris,
>> Is the one piece skin option also prepunched??
>> Ed Cole
>> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
> Nice try. Not only are they not prepunched, you have to go to
>North Plains and pick them up. Vans won't deliver. This is really not a
>option, but if you really want them, you can get them. It is sort of an
>optional option.
>
> I am just finsihing my wings, and the number
>of times I have had the skins on and off, would have made a one piece
>skin a real pain, at least for my garage and set up. The one peice skins
>are heavier, harder to work with (prime, clean, drill to the wing, not
>prepuched) and all just to eliminate a panel line? When I was building
>R/C scale aircraft, we went to extrordinary measures to simulate the true
>scale panel lines. Now we are all trying to hide them and make our
>planes look like plastic airplanes! Just my opinion, if I wanted my RV
>to look like a plastic airplane, I would have bought a plastic airplane kit!
>
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
Bob: Van's will furnish and ship one piece skins. I don't think they like
doing it and they charge quite a bit for a special crate and the freight is
quite high. I ordered three sets of RV-6 skins, one for a friend and two
for me. You have to pay for the whole 4 x 8' sheet but they enclose all of
the cut-offs. I agree that the sheets are a little harder to handle. For
what they costs, two people would be a good idea for taking the skin off and
putting it on. It's a pretty expensive piece of aluminum to drop. As far
as not being pre-drilled, I'm not quite the fan of pre-drilled skins as
Van's says everyone else is. I would rather have a little cheaper kit and
drill the holes myself but I guess it's a poplular feature. I didn't have
any trouble drilling holes on my first 6. I guess they have the problem of
holes not lining up with ribs solved, but if you have to drill all of the
holes, there wouldn't be the problem of mis-alignment. As far as the
comment about plastic airplanes, no reason to get nasty :) . Bob
Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
| Subject: | Re: Suburu/Rotary Power |
> I've been doing some reading about the Rotary engine design. Why is
> the rotary engine not gaining more support. It seems to me that
> the design is far superior to the piston engine.
It would probably catch on a little better if there were a design specifically
made for aircraft rather than trying to adapt the Mazda unit. If I recall
properly, if there were only one rotor (A big one, I imagine) you could gear
down the shaft speed to whatever you wanted.
When I was a kid, I had a visible engine kit for a Wankel, but I was kinda
sloppy with the glue at that age, and I still can't figure out exactly how the
fool things work.
--
"Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous
scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!"
-- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TheBigHu(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | SHERWIN WILLIAMS PRIMER |
Hello folks!
I am working on the empennage for my RV-6A. I've been frustrated by weather
here in Kansas City and can't get at priming. Oh, well. I guess I'm resigned
to having to wait until spring time to start working on the project.
Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
the surface for better adhesion.
All suggestions and tips are welcome....
Ron Mott
RV-6A (empennage)
S/N 24546
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis S. Smidler" <102776.1474(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Air line tubing IPO PVC |
Derek Lang made a sugestion to use a plastic pipe of a differedt spec. than PVC.
Might I suggest going to your local Semi-truck/trailer repair shop and get some
flexable plastic airline used in truck and trailer air brake system. It is DOT
approved for the critical brake application that normally sees 120 psi. with a
huge saftey factor. They will also have the brass fittings needed. The
quantity the industry uses is so great that it is inexpensive (in comparison to
aircraft parts).
Frank Smidler
Director of Eng.
Wabash National Corp.
(Largest semi-trailer manufacturer in the world)
RV-6 fuselage in jig.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Vapour return system on RV6 (fwd) |
Several comments.
There was another article on this about a month ago in Sport Aviation.
It was just a one pager but talked about this same problem.
I did not install a return line. What I did was fire sleeve ever fuel
hose firewall fwd. I also built an AL box around my gascolator
and routed two of the black flex hoses Van's sells from the back of
the engine baffle down to the gascolator to blast cool air on it.
I also put a 1 1/4 inch SCAT tube from the rear baffel down to the
fuel pump to let it blow cool air on the fuel pump. I just Tie wraped
this SCAT line to the motor mount so that the end of the SCAT tubing
is directed at the fuel pump.
I only have a few hours on my RV4 now and it is winter so don't know.
I will know this summer.
I think with AV gas it will not be a problem. With auto fuel it could
be a problem.
For now I like the approach I took above. I can always route some
vapor line if I have a problem later.
FYI, I know Don Childs, his hanger is just down a few from mine.
He knows a lot about engines and taught in technical schools.
I think what he says is quite valid and is backed up the the latest
article in Sport Aviation. Don does not have an RV but he has a
one of a kind high wing homebuilt. I just elected to keep it simple for now.
Maybe others on the list will have some experience with such an
installation on a RV.
Herman
> From root Thu Jan 18 11:06:22 1996
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 07:53:25 PST
> Message-Id: <9601181553.AA12751(at)sparky.etc.bc.ca>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> From: cln.etc.bc.ca!shobensh(at)matronics.com (Shirley Hobenshield)
> X-Sender: shobensh(at)pop.etc.bc.ca
> Subject: RV-List: Vapour return system on RV6
> Cc: 76455.1602(at)compuserve.com
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I am at the fuel line installation stage. Having read all about fuel line
> vapours and the problems with it, I intend to install blast tubes and
> firesleeves where applicable. Most of all the article by Don Child in
> RVator 92-31 about his vapour return line system makes sense to me, also
> Van's comment at the end of the article, where he thinks the return line
> should go all the way back into the fuel tank, in order to better condense
> all the vapours again.
>
> I was all set planning the routing of the vapour retun line back to the
> right wing tank, when some doubts entered my mind. Suppose you are flying
> along using fuel from the left tank, (without vapours) a steady fine stream
> of fuel from the .030 orifice will flow back into the right wing tank. If
> that fuel tank ins full it will push the fuel out the vent tube going
> overboard. If the tank is empty it would transfer some of the fuel from
> the left tank into the right tank emptying the left tank quicker.
>
> Of course, one could switch the return line to the tank you are using, but
> that would complicate the installation and require more fuel management.
> My motto being K.I.S.S. maybe I should follow Don Child's sketch? Or maybe
> the .030" fuel stream is too little to amount to anything?
>
> Any contributions or suggestions would be welcome.
>
> Ray Heaussler
> shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ross Rebgetz <Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au> |
| Subject: | Cleaveland Tools |
I have been unable to fax an order to Cleaveland. It may be just busy lines
but is their fax number still 515 432 7804 ?
The Dec 95 issue of the RVator p.7 says Cleaveland is on email. Could
someone tell me their email address.
Thanks
Ross
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: +61 077 538 570
Fax: +61 077 538 600
CSIRO Mail: CSIRO
Division of Tropical Crops & Pastures Davies Laboratory
Davies Laboratory Private Mail Bag
University Road Aitkenvale Qld 4814
Townsville Australia
AUSTRALIA
Email: Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Vapour return system on RV6 |
Don's hangar is across the runway from where I built my -4. I trust just
about anything this guy says, so I wouldn't change a thing.
Seems Bonanza's have a re-circulating system, and are placarded to pull from
the tank with the return first, as to make room for the return volume.
Simple.
Another way to avoid all this is to delete the gascolator. Some locally
constructed RV's are using a system with two auto type inline filters, Wix
brand #33033, placed inline as the fuel line comes in thru the wing root.
Makes plumbing easier, as a piece of flex line in the middle of a piece of
hard line does wonders. These babies will flow 30GPH with no problems- I've
seen it on the flowmeter. If one plugs, you've got another.
Rgds,
Mark
mlfred(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Engines Weights |
The constant speed prop will have a G limit. I was talking with one fellow who
had opted for a new engin and prop and He was telling me that his prop was only
good for 4 G's. So there is more to the prop than just it's weight....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Vapour return system on RV6 |
>Of course, one could switch the return line to the tank you are using, but
>that would complicate the installation and require more fuel management.
>My motto being K.I.S.S. maybe I should follow Don Child's sketch? Or maybe
>the .030" fuel stream is too little to amount to anything?
>Any contributions or suggestions would be welcome.
>Ray Heaussler
>shobensh(at)cln.etc.bc.ca
Ray,
Why don't you just feed fuel from the tank with the return first?
Steve Mayer
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Archive Search |
I have the archive but I 'm not sure about the page breaks... I also have a
pascal to C translator since I play with Linux as well as Windows & NT.
Send me your E-Mail address and I'll be happy to colaborate on some thing. I've
been meanig to do something of a search program myself but never got around to
it. The net is drowndnig me in E-mail messages....
MY email address is don't add a 'com' it's just hic.net. I'll
be off the net starting Jan 22 for a week. Try and getback to me before sunday
afternoon Jan 22.
Bill Lea
OH, It would be better if everyone explicitly put their email address in the
post so we can avoid having to spray this chatter all over the net. I cant'
ever seem to sort out the address headers the list spits out, the mail just
bounces them back at me. grrrr......
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Graham Taylor <gmt(at)perth.DIALix.oz.au> |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Rich Ward wrote:
> I've been reading the brochure on the Rockey Mountain Instrument
> microEncoder.
> Questions: > 1. Are those using this device happy with it? > 2. Are you
using it for your primary VFR instruments, i.e., no analog backup? > 3. Do
you get raised eyebrows from the FAA inspectors if don't have analog >
backups? >
I've built this beauty, and also his micro-monitor (the engine
package). His kits are top quality, the components are top shelf stuff,
his instructions excellent, his response to any queries is second to none.
YOu could say I'm a fan. If you have any doubts, he will sell you all the
documentation on its own (3 manuals), so you can judge the standards to
which this guy operates. He will also take the kit back if you don't like
what you see (thats before youve started building of course)
I have a backup ASI and altimeter - for IFR reasons. The Australian
authorities might take a different view from FAA, but the local inspector
doesn't have a problem, but perhaps because I have backups.
Graham Taylor gmt(at)perth.DIALix.oz.au
119 Darley Circle, Bullcreek, WA 6149, AUSTRALIA
Phone (619) 332 4094 Fax (619) 310 6048
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | TheBigHu(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
Hello folks!
I am working on the empennage for my RV-6A. I've been frustrated by weather
here in Kansas City and can't get at priming. Oh, well. I guess I'm resigned
to having to wait until spring time to start working on the project.
Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
the surface for better adhesion.
All suggestions and tips are welcome....
Ron Mott
RV-6A (empennage)
S/N 24546
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov> |
Y'all!
EAA Chapter 524 in Frederick, MD is once again presenting the RV Forum
this year. It will be April 12 & 13. Cost is $35 for one day, $45 for both
if pre-registered. At the door cost is $45 for one day and $55 for both
days. The Friday banquet will be $15.
Please feel free to email me with questions or phone any of the following:
David Liston 301-831-3008
Jerry Blake 301-416-0491
George Orndorff 301-293-1505
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | david_fried(at)smtpgwy.dehavilland.ca |
| Subject: | "g" Limits on Constant Speed Propellers |
I think that this applies to only one model of those that are suitable
for this installation. It has something to do with an integral shaft
extension. Check with Van before giving up on CS.
David Fried
DF-7 C-____
dfried(at)dehavilland.ca
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: RV-List: Engines Weights
Date: 19/01/96 07:56
The constant speed prop will have a G limit. I was talking with one fellow who
had opted for a new engin and prop and He was telling me that his prop was only
good for 4 G's. So there is more to the prop than just it's weight....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | pilla(at)espinc.espinc.com (Michael Pilla) |
| Subject: | Re: IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
> Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
> the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
> to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
> paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
> used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
When I was using SW wash-primer, I often used a technique showed my by a
fellow RV-4 builder, Pete Fink. He would simply use one of the disposable
foam paintbrushes and brush on a very thin coating. You could see through
the coating (as is appropriate) and there was no "overspray", etc. It seemed
to work winter as well as summer; I guess because of the lack of "atomization"
by the air, it didn't "freeze" or whatever the process is; hey, chemistry was
not my strong subject :-) The appearance seemed to be about the same as
spraying with a gun and the 24-hour "masking tape pull test" resulted in the
same adhesion.
> because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
> Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
As I recall, it is a very different color and definitely "thinner" than
Variprime. I could see *every* mark on the Aluminum through SW, but the
Variprime, even when applied thinly, seems to be denser.
> Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
> clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
> the surface for better adhesion.
At the time, I used MEK and Coleman Fuel (Naptha). Following the comments
on this list, I switched to Acetone. The ScotchBrite "rough up" does seem
to help, but I tried a couple of samples with and without the "rough up" and
it didn't seem to make a whole heck of a lot of difference when using the
24 hour masking tape test. How clean it is, i.e., get grease marks off, ...,
seems to be the bigger factor, IMHO.
Mike Pilla
pilla(at)espinc.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
| Subject: | Re: IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
>
>Hello folks!
>
>I am working on the empennage for my RV-6A. I've been frustrated by weather
>here in Kansas City and can't get at priming. Oh, well. I guess I'm resigned
>to having to wait until spring time to start working on the project.
>
>Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
>the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
>to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
>paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
>used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
>
>Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
>vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
>off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
>Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
>because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
>Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
>
>Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
>clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
>the surface for better adhesion.
>
>All suggestions and tips are welcome....
>
>Ron Mott
>RV-6A (empennage)
>S/N 24546
>
Ron,
I have used both the Sherwin Williams and the Dupont
Variprime. I started with the Sherwin Williams because that was what I
found locally first. On the spar of my -3, however, I used the Dupont
Variprime because it was recommended to use it over alodined parts.
The Sherwin Williams product said not to do that. They are not the
same color. The dupont Variprime dries to a green color that has
a yellow cast to it. It looks much like mustard. The Sherwin Williams
is more green. Both dry to about the same color as when mixed. The
only other difference is that the Sherwin Williams dried to a more
transparent look, at least on my parts. Hope this helps.
Cheryl Sanchez
csanchez(at)world.std.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
| Subject: | Why not top coat Variprime?? |
OK, I apologize in advance for bringing up the primer discussion again.
But..... Has anyone considered just painting over Variprime? Does paint
really weigh that much? Has anyone verified any weight increase w/without
painting??
Many people have suggested the E word ( epoxy primer ). I think of the E word
as something really bad that requires unusual precautions. Variprime has acid
in it. If you're exposed, you'll know it immediately. It's kind of an "honest"toxic
substance <1/2g>. It is not temperature sensitive and requires minimial
prep. In short, I like Variprime and would like to continue using it.
What say yee?? I could paint the interior of my plane some nice color, like
maybe orange.......
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Cleaveland Tools (fwd) |
They are at cat3tools(at)aol.com
FAX is 515 432 7804 per their catalog.
Herman
> From root Fri Jan 19 04:57:59 1996
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 15:07:49 EST
> Message-Id: <9601190507.AA29317(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au>
> X-Sender: ross(at)tvadmin.tvl.tcp.csiro.au
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> From: Ross Rebgetz <tvl.tcp.csiro.au!Ross.Rebgetz(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Cleaveland Tools
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> I have been unable to fax an order to Cleaveland. It may be just busy lines
> but is their fax number still 515 432 7804 ?
> The Dec 95 issue of the RVator p.7 says Cleaveland is on email. Could
> someone tell me their email address.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ross
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tel: +61 077 538 570
> Fax: +61 077 538 600
>
> CSIRO Mail: CSIRO
> Division of Tropical Crops & Pastures Davies Laboratory
> Davies Laboratory Private Mail Bag
> University Road Aitkenvale Qld 4814
> Townsville Australia
> AUSTRALIA
> Email: Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
MS: 9530 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
I ordered my alclad from the people that have advertized in the back os
Sport Aviation forever. The add with the lady standing in the roll of
alclad. They cut material to lenght and roll it up. It was shipped in
a 1'X1'X48" box, via UPS. I have no idea why Van woun't ship the skins,
the place I bought from didn't have any problem with it. I cut the
material to size with a router and 1/8" bit. See Hovan's web sight for
more info.
As far as the ease of installation, I have no idea how difficult it is
to install the 2 piece skins, but the one piece was real easy. The total
time to install (locate and drill holes, no dimpleing yet) one single piece
skin was just over 8 hours, and I'm not a fast worker. Don't let additional
work scare you away from the SPS, it's just not an issue.
I don't think anybody has to worry about an RV looking like a plastic
plane. I like the look of the single piece skins, if others like the
seam, well, that's fine too. The nice thing (one of many) about building
your own airplane is that you get to make choices like this.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
... would eliminate the additional cost of building a special crate and the
> additional shipping costs. You would probably delete the pre-punched skins.
> Anyway, might be worth looking in to. Bob Skinner RV-6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
>
> Bob: Van's will furnish and ship one piece skins. I don't think they like
> doing it and they charge quite a bit for a special crate and the freight is
> quite high.
I paid $24.00 for shipping from Airparts (the company I bought the
Alclad from).
> I ordered three sets of RV-6 skins, one for a friend and two
> for me. You have to pay for the whole 4 x 8' sheet but they enclose all of
> the cut-offs.
Acctually the sheet are 12' when Van starts with them. The single piece
skin will be about 9' when you are done. Airparts sell Alclad directly from
the roll. They will cut it to anl lenght you want. The total bill was about
$180.00 W/shipping (UPS).
> I agree that the sheets are a little harder to handle. For
> what they costs, two people would be a good idea for taking the skin off and
> putting it on. It's a pretty expensive piece of aluminum to drop.
I didn't have any problem handling it by myself. I have the tops of
the wings faceing to the inside of a two wing jig and was able to lift the
skin to the inside of the jig with little effort. The skin can be draped
over the leading edge from the outside, and then moved the rest of the way
from the inside. Piece of cake.
As far
> as not being pre-drilled, I'm not quite the fan of pre-drilled skins as
> Van's says everyone else is. I would rather have a little cheaper kit and
> drill the holes myself but I guess it's a poplular feature. I didn't have
> any trouble drilling holes on my first 6. I guess they have the problem of
> holes not lining up with ribs solved, but if you have to drill all of the
> holes, there wouldn't be the problem of mis-alignment. As far as the
> comment about plastic airplanes, no reason to get nasty :) . Bob
> Skinner RV-6
>
>
By the time a builder get's to the wing skins, locating holes should not
be a problem. I didn't have any problem, so I don't think the prepunched
skins would be much of a advantage. Your milage may varry.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
Throw that Zip gun in the trash, or convert it to use baby food jars.
The wax in the Dixi-cup disolves into some paints and will keep the primer
from drying. Variprime is one of the paints that has this problem. Use a
cheep touch-up gun (about $20). I have been useing one for 2 years and it's
NBD to clean up.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
> the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
> to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
> paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
> used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Ron Mott
> RV-6A (empennage)
> S/N 24546
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
| Subject: | Which Plane To Build? Now I Know |
>Now the question is - Which RV to build? No question here, I'll be
>waiting on the RV-8.
>Back to lurking...
>Mike Grubb
>Mobile, AL
Hi Mike,
Welcome to the club!
Steve Johnson
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
Waiting on the RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
>Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
>vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
>off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
>Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
>because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
>Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
>From what I understand the color should be a light tint of green that is
more see-through that anything else. That's what I get on my parts.
>Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
>clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
>the surface for better adhesion.
I was doing this at first, and found that if I just acetone the parts first,
the paint sticks great and the rest is overkill.
I too have a question about temperature:
What is too cold. I've been wanting to paint for months now but it's been
30-50 degrees for a long time. At what temperature can I start painting?
Is there also a humidity range that we must work within? We've been at 100%
for a while now.
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: SHERWIN WILLIAMS PRIMER |
>Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
>the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
>to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
>paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
>used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
>
>Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
>vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
>off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
>Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
>because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
>Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
>
>Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
>clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
>the surface for better adhesion.
>
>All suggestions and tips are welcome....
>
>Ron Mott
>RV-6A (empennage)
>S/N 24546
Ron, I'm using SW Industrial wash primer, P60-G2 & R7 K44. If this is what
you are using, it will not cover or hid like Variprime. It is almost
transparent. Several builders that I've seen use this primer put it on too
thick. If you were to have something written on the metal with a Sharpie,
you would still be able to see the writting easily (one advantage, IMO). I
don't like the paper cup (zip gun). I use a cheap touch up gun for a lot of
my priming. If you apply the primer evenly it sort of looks like alodine,
different color. I generally warm up my shop to 65 or so, open a window,
turn on a fan and paint. After most of the fumes are out, close the window,
go into the house and find something else to do until the next day. I used
Scotchbrite and cleaned with acetone. Know what you mean about the weather.
We had wind chills of -65 degrees yesterday here in Nebraska and I had a 5'
drift in front of my shop and also garage door. Bob Skinner RV-6
flying, building RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Vapour return system on RV6 |
>Another way to avoid all this is to delete the gascolator. Some locally
>constructed RV's are using a system with two auto type inline filters, Wix
>brand #33033, placed inline as the fuel line comes in thru the wing root.
>Makes plumbing easier, as a piece of flex line in the middle of a piece of
>hard line does wonders. These babies will flow 30GPH with no problems- I've
>seen it on the flowmeter. If one plugs, you've got another.
>Rgds,
>Mark
>mlfred(at)aol.com
>
>
So what do you do when one plugs with water when in flight? A gascolator
will hold a large quantity of water before the carb starts ingesting it, will
a filter?
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com (Doug Weiler) |
| Subject: | Re: Cleaveland Tools |
>I have been unable to fax an order to Cleaveland. It may be just busy lines
>but is their fax number still 515 432 7804 ?
>The Dec 95 issue of the RVator p.7 says Cleaveland is on email. Could
>someone tell me their email address.
>
>Thanks
>
>Ross
>
Ross:
Your Fax number for Cleaveland is correct (normal phone is 515-432-6794).
Their E-mail is cat3tools(at)aol.com
Happy building!!
Doug (-48 degree C wind chill this morning!!)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
= Doug Weiler, pres. MN Wing Van's AirForce, RV-4 wings in progress
= 347 Krattley Lane
= Hudson, WI 54016
= 715-386-1239
= email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | Re: IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
on,
I regularily prime at 50 degrees with no problems. Here are some of the
things that helped me improve using Sherwin Williams. (1.) I had the air
pressure two high. I now use less than 25 - 30 psi. (2.) From Van's, use
2.5 catalyst to 1 part paint mixture. With this mix the primer sprays on
better and drys rapidly. Dries to tacky in 5 minutes and hard in 15. (3.)
Use Alumiprep to clean the parts, rinse very well, and dry very well. (4.)
Spray one side, wait 10 to 15 minutes, turn the parts over and spray the
other side.
The color is dark green to grayish. I noticed at Van's they do not put on a
very heavy coat and the resulting "color" is very transparent. The finish
is very hard - scratch resistant.
>Hello folks!
>
>I am working on the empennage for my RV-6A. I've been frustrated by weather
>here in Kansas City and can't get at priming. Oh, well. I guess I'm resigned
>to having to wait until spring time to start working on the project.
>
>Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
>the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
>to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
>paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
>used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
>
>Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
>vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
>off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
>Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
>because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
>Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
>
>Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
>clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
>the surface for better adhesion.
>
>All suggestions and tips are welcome....
>
>Ron Mott
>RV-6A (empennage)
>S/N 24546
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com> |
| Subject: | Using a paint brush to prime parts |
>When I was using SW wash-primer, I often used a technique showed my by a
>fellow RV-4 builder, Pete Fink. He would simply use one of the disposable
>foam paintbrushes and brush on a very thin coating. You could see through
>the coating (as is appropriate) and there was no "overspray", etc. It seemed
>to work winter as well as summer; I guess because of the lack of "atomization"
>by the air, it didn't "freeze" or whatever the process is; hey, chemistry was
>not my strong subject :-) The appearance seemed to be about the same as
>spraying with a gun and the 24-hour "masking tape pull test" resulted in the
>same adhesion.
has anyone else had any experience with this method? If it works, I'll try
it.
Does anyone know if the applied thickness is substantially greater using
this method? Or do I need to start mixing my Sherman William with Helium? hehe
-THanks
-Steve Day
sday(at)pharmcomp.com
(CK ID - RV6a RV for short)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Catmaillst(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cleaveland Tools |
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool's E-mail address is: Cat3Tools(at)AOL.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tip for Wing Builders |
Even easier is to use cleco side grip clamps on either side of the rib
clamped to the threaded rod.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why not top coat Variprime?? |
>OK, I apologize in advance for bringing up the primer discussion again.
>
>But..... Has anyone considered just painting over Variprime? Does paint
>really weigh that much? Has anyone verified any weight increase w/without
>painting??
>
>Many people have suggested the E word ( epoxy primer ). I think of the E word
>as something really bad that requires unusual precautions. Variprime has acid
>in it. If you're exposed, you'll know it immediately. It's kind of an
"honest"toxic substance <1/2g>. It is not temperature sensitive and
requires minimial
>prep. In short, I like Variprime and would like to continue using it.
>
>What say yee?? I could paint the interior of my plane some nice color, like
>maybe orange.......
>
>John
John, With either Variprime or an epoxy primer, you should use the
reccomended safety equipment. At the very least, a charcoal filter mask and
adequate ventilation. Just "follow the label". The way I looked at it:
Hobby Air fresh air system--three hundred some bucks, lung
transplant---$100,000+ (?). I think we might be splitting hairs on the
discussion of primers. I used Variprime on the first RV and am using SW
wash primer on the second. On both, I used Scotch brite and cleaned with
acetone, then painted. I beleive for the best adhesion of epoxies, they
reccommend cleaning and alodining. My paint shop friend tries not to use
much etching and alodining because of enviromental concerns. Don't believe
the EPA would like seeing the materials being washed down the drain. I
wouldn't paint the inside of my airplane. They're hard enough to keep light.
I don't know how much weight priming interiors adds but I can tell you
how much the paint job on my RV-6 weighed. We used PPG products on the
exterior. We scrubbed the aluminum with soapy water and Scotch brite,
twice. After drying, sprayed one "see through" coat of DX 1791/1792 we
sprayed on one medium coat of DP 48(white), 1 coat K 36 sanding primer down
visible rivet lines, 1 coat DP 48 epoxy primer then 3 medium coats of
Durethane on top surfaces and 2 coats on bottom surfaces. The paint job
weighed 30 lbs. I'm going to put a lighter paint job on the 6 I'm building now.
Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | alanw(at)netspace.net.au (Alan Williams) |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
>
>I've built this beauty, and also his micro-monitor (the engine
>package). His kits are top quality, the components are top shelf stuff,
>his instructions excellent, his response to any queries is second to none.
>YOu could say I'm a fan. If you have any doubts, he will sell you all the
>documentation on its own (3 manuals), so you can judge the standards to
>which this guy operates. He will also take the kit back if you don't like
>what you see (thats before youve started building of course)
>
>I have a backup ASI and altimeter - for IFR reasons. The Australian
>authorities might take a different view from FAA, but the local inspector
>doesn't have a problem, but perhaps because I have backups.
>
>Graham Taylor gmt(at)perth.DIALix.oz.au
>119 Darley Circle, Bullcreek, WA 6149, AUSTRALIA
>Phone (619) 332 4094 Fax (619) 310 6048
>
>
Graham,
Appreciate contact details for RMI.
Alan Williams alanw(at)netspace.net.au
Melbourne Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
Bob
I stand corrected on the one piece wing skin. I did not mean to
get nasty about the plastic airplanes, sorry.
Bob Busick
RV-6
rbusick(at)nsmsu.edu
> Just my opinion, if I wanted my RV
> >to look like a plastic airplane, I would have bought a plastic airplane kit!
> >
> >Bob Busick
> >RV-6
>
> Bob: Van's will furnish and ship one piece skins. I don't think they like
> doing it and they charge quite a bit for a special crate and the freight is
> quite high. I ordered three sets of RV-6 skins, one for a friend and two
> for me. You have to pay for the whole 4 x 8' sheet but they enclose all of
> the cut-offs. I agree that the sheets are a little harder to handle. For
> what they costs, two people would be a good idea for taking the skin off and
> putting it on. It's a pretty expensive piece of aluminum to drop. As far
> as not being pre-drilled, I'm not quite the fan of pre-drilled skins as
> Van's says everyone else is. I would rather have a little cheaper kit and
> drill the holes myself but I guess it's a poplular feature. I didn't have
> any trouble drilling holes on my first 6. I guess they have the problem of
> holes not lining up with ribs solved, but if you have to drill all of the
> holes, there wouldn't be the problem of mis-alignment. As far as the
> comment about plastic airplanes, no reason to get nasty :) . Bob
> Skinner RV-6
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
| Subject: | Re: Cleaveland Tools |
CAT3Tools(at)aol.com
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: SHERWIN WILLIAMS PRIMER |
>to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing
the
>paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
>used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
>
>Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
>vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
>off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
>Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
>because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
>Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
I'm using the same setup. (SW and a COLD garage) I think SW reccomends 50
degrees or better. I've had good success to 35 or so. All of the local
builder use a ratio of 1 to 1. It makes it easier to mix, and it seems to
work better.
The key is to get used to seeing a LIGHT coat. You can't make the part
opaque green unless you put it on really heavy. All it needs is just the
*illusion* of being green .
Seriously, it took me a long time, and looking at the projects of builders
who knew what they were doing to get used to putting it on light enough. All
you want to do is cover the surface, not *paint* it.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
Chris:
> I paid $24.00 for shipping from Airparts (the company I bought the
>Alclad from).
I thought about the rolled aluminum from Airparts. Some builders (using one
piece skins) don't like the rolled aluminum, others say they get along OK.
I ordered some a few years ago and when un-rolled, it appeared to be
somewhat "wrinkly", OK for curved sections, but not what I'd want to use on
the top of a wing. I suppose it depends on where on the roll it comes from,
the beginning or end. Van's sheets aren't rolled but shipped flat.
> Acctually the sheet are 12' when Van starts with them. The single piece
>skin will be about 9' when you are done. Airparts sell Alclad directly from
>the roll. They will cut it to anl lenght you want. The total bill was about
>$180.00 W/shipping (UPS).
Opps! I mis-spoke. From Van's, you buy a 4 x 12 foot piece. They shear it
for you and you get to keep the scraps. Sorry--mental impairment due to
over-exposure to fiberglass (built Glasiar before present RV-6 :). Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
Rich
I am using one and I love it, it was one of the best kits and instructions I
have seen it was fun to build. I do not use it as the only primary
insturements but I have seen people who do. I would highly recommend it for
use in your RV-4.
I have been using in my RV-6 for 6 years.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS first flight july 14, 1989
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KHarrill(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: SHERWIN WILLIAMS PRIMER |
Here's my question. I'm using Sherwin Williams primer and I tried to prime
the rear stab of the horizontal stabilizer one day in December when I managed
to get the temperature in the garage up to about 60 degrees. After mixing the
paint and the catalyst to the recommended 1.5-1 catalyst to paint mixture, I
used the zip gun to spray the parts. It did not go well.
Apparently, with my having the garage opened to serve as a vent (I tried in
vain to purchase a 20" box fan that I would sit the garage door on and seal
off the remainder of the opening -- a tip garnered from local RV-6A builder
Mike Hartmann) it got too cold. I had to wipe the primer off before it dried
because it was not setting as the green color I expected. Does Sherwin
Williams not dry to that green color that I suspect Variprime does?
Also, is it necessary to etch the pieces before painting. I used acetone to
clean the parts, but did not use ScotchBrite or anything else to "rough up"
the surface for better adhesion.
Ron,
I have used Sherwin Williams primer when the temperature was in the
fifties without any problems. You may be expecting to see color coverage,
when, in fact, the film is very transparent. You may also want to try mixing
it 2.5:1. I do not etch or alodine when using this primer and get excellent
adhesion. I just wipe the parts with thinner or Coleman fuel before
spraying. I am very pleased with this primer for alclad parts.
I hope this is some help.
Ken Harrill
RV - 6
South Carolina
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RFlunker(at)aol.com |
I've recently started on the left elevator, and am looking for advice as to a
good way to cut out the trim tab - tools to use, sequence, etc. How did you
do it??
Thanks in advance.
Dick Flunker
RV-6A, Wing on order (RFLUNKER(at)AOL.COM)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | Re: Why not top coat Variprime?? |
> >But..... Has anyone considered just painting over Variprime? Does paint
> >really weigh that much? Has anyone verified any weight increase w/without
> >painting??
> >
> >What say yee?? I could paint the interior of my plane some nice color, like
> >maybe orange.......
> >
> >John
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Bob Skinner wrote:
>
>I wouldn't paint the inside of my airplane. They're hard enough to keep
light.
> I don't know how much weight priming interiors adds but I can tell you
> how much the paint job on my RV-6 weighed. We used PPG products on the
> exterior. We scrubbed the aluminum with soapy water and Scotch brite,
> twice. After drying, sprayed one "see through" coat of DX 1791/1792 we
> sprayed on one medium coat of DP 48(white), 1 coat K 36 sanding primer down
> visible rivet lines, 1 coat DP 48 epoxy primer then 3 medium coats of
> Durethane on top surfaces and 2 coats on bottom surfaces. The paint job
> weighed 30 lbs. I'm going to put a lighter paint job on the 6 I'm building now.
>
> Bob Skinner RV-6
I weighed a gallon of PPG DX1791/1792 primer last night, it is
about 8 lbs/gal, variprime is much heavier. PPG primer goes on very thin
and variprime goes on much heavier. One builder told me he used 4
gallons of primer on the inside of his RV. So rough estimate is 32 to 40
lbs is how much weight primer can add. I have done some weight
calcultions and I find the weight can really add up if you don't watch
it. You rationalize a lb here and there and pretty soon you have some
real weight. The manual states you can build the RV-6 for 965 lbs add 50
for the RV-6A. I have met a lot of pilots who claim 1100-1200 lbs,
remember the design gross weight is 1600, so we do not have a lot of room
to spare and still carry full fuel.
My number one building criteria that I measure all decisions by
is: How much does it weigh? Right now I've decided not to paint the
aircraft, because as you can see Bob Skinner's paint job is 30 lbs, and I
consider that fairly light for what he did. Vans paint job with no
primer is about 15 lbs. At this time, I am unwilling to compromise even
the 15 pounds. I have budgeted about 7 lbs for exterior painting, for
stripes and painting the plastic parts, but the rest will be bare aluminum.
The easiest way to improve or mainatin RV performance is to build
it as light as possible. Every extra pound reduces the performance.
Bob Busick
RV-6
rbusick(at)nmsu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
I cut it with a Dremel Tool and a cutting disc.
>I've recently started on the left elevator, and am looking for advice as to a
>good way to cut out the trim tab - tools to use, sequence, etc. How did you
>do it??
>
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Dick Flunker
>RV-6A, Wing on order (RFLUNKER(at)AOL.COM)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
I used snips to cut mine, not recommended. I didn't know that a
cutting disk on a die grinder was worth three times its weight in gold.
Now I cut everything Ican with a cutting disk. If I were doing the
elevator again that's how I would do it.
> I cut it with a Dremel Tool and a cutting disc.
>
> >I've recently started on the left elevator, and am looking for advice as to
a
> >good way to cut out the trim tab - tools to use, sequence, etc. How did you
> >do it??
> >
> >
> >Thanks in advance.
> >
> >Dick Flunker
> >RV-6A, Wing on order (RFLUNKER(at)AOL.COM)
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
> Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
> Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
> Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Anyone interested in a Houston RV builders group? |
I recently was up in Oregon and visited (among others) several members of the Portland
RVators builders group. They are very active, with monthly project visits, a monthly
newsletter, and an annual fly in. They also share info, tools etc as they go along.
It
seems to be a great Idea, and a good way to meet other builders.
I'm a relative newcomer to Houston, having moved up from Corpus Christi, and there
seems
to be quite a lot of RV'ing going on. I dont think that anyone has got a builders
group
going here yet, especially on the South side of town (I think the guys at Hooks
are
about done building).
So, what do you think.. I'm willing to help get a group started (and even take
a crack
at a newsletter!}if there is enough interest.... P.S. this is intended to be a
supplement to, and not instead of EAA.
My E-Mail address is av8r(at)hic.net - lets try to avoid cluttering the list if we
can. If
you know as builder in the area without E-mail capacity, I can be reached at
713-992-3916.
Regards,
Rob Lee - Fairings and paint -RV6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan) |
| Subject: | WIng Skins drill Pattern |
What hole pattern for drilling the wing skins works best to get the
flattest smoothest sheet?
Thanks in advance.
Bob RV6
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366
Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132
Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906
Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
>The wax in the Dixi-cup disolves into some paints and will keep the primer
>from drying. Variprime is one of the paints that has this problem. Use a
>cheep touch-up gun (about $20). I have been useing one for 2 years and it's
>NBD to clean up.
>
>
I don't know about Variprime, but if you use waxless cups zip guns work great
with SW.
-- Ed Bundy (installing baggage compartment)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Cleaveland Tools |
>I have been unable to fax an order to Cleaveland. It may be just busy lines
>but is their fax number still 515 432 7804 ?
>The Dec 95 issue of the RVator p.7 says Cleaveland is on email. Could
>someone tell me their email address.
>
>Thanks
>
>Ross
Ross,
cat3tools(at)aol.com for E-mail. The above FAX number is correct per their last
catalog.
Dick
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Why not top coat Variprime?? |
>
> I weighed a gallon of PPG DX1791/1792 primer last night, it is
>about 8 lbs/gal, variprime is much heavier. PPG primer goes on very thin
>and variprime goes on much heavier. One builder told me he used 4
>gallons of primer on the inside of his RV. So rough estimate is 32 to 40
>lbs is how much weight primer can add. I have done some weight
>calcultions and I find the weight can really add up if you don't watch
>it. You rationalize a lb here and there and pretty soon you have some
>real weight. The manual states you can build the RV-6 for 965 lbs add 50
>for the RV-6A. I have met a lot of pilots who claim 1100-1200 lbs,
>remember the design gross weight is 1600, so we do not have a lot of room
>to spare and still carry full fuel.
>
> My number one building criteria that I measure all decisions by
>is: How much does it weigh? Right now I've decided not to paint the
>aircraft, because as you can see Bob Skinner's paint job is 30 lbs, and I
>consider that fairly light for what he did. Vans paint job with no
>primer is about 15 lbs. At this time, I am unwilling to compromise even
>the 15 pounds. I have budgeted about 7 lbs for exterior painting, for
>stripes and painting the plastic parts, but the rest will be bare aluminum.
>
> The easiest way to improve or mainatin RV performance is to build
>it as light as possible. Every extra pound reduces the performance.
>
>Bob Busick
>RV-6
>rbusick(at)nmsu.edu
>
Bob: I sure agree. Keep it as light as possible. Things just kind of add
up and I was really surprised that my aircraft weighed 1080 lbs. I probably
went overboard on priming the interior with Variprime but I think the
estimate of 32-40 lbs is high. On the RV I'm building now, I'm using a
Croix turbine and putting on a very light coat of SW on the Alclad surfaces,
just a little more on the non-alclad. I estimate that doing the whole
interior will take less than 2 gallons of mixed product.
My hat's off to you if you build a polished airplane. They're a lot of
trouble to keep looking knice. Beware of sticky fingered kids at fly-ins.
They sure look good. I saw Dave Ander's RV-4 at OSH, WOW. But---I owned a
Cessna 170, bare aluminum and it seems like I did more polishing than
flying. If it sat outside and got dew on it, you had to polish, just a lot
more trouble than it was worth.
Hopefully, there are some builder's on the list who can give some
insight on how to put on a light paint job. I've been thinking about doing
the following on my present RV: Scotchbrite with soap and water, rinse,
clean with metal cleaner, use conversion coating, prime with DX 1791 self
etching primer and top coat with Durethane.
Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
It seems like the list is kind of stuck on wing skins and priming. I
move that we try to get some other threads going. Possible ideas:
How many flying RV's are there among list members and what are their
experiences and thoughts about the following:
What kind of exterior painting processes used, what builders would do
differently and how does the paint seem to be holding up?
What kind of engine instruments were used, cost, accuracy, weight. It
occurs to me that I have never ween an article in Sprot Aviation concerning
engine instrumentation. For something as important as monitoring the health
of an engine, I'm surprised that there is little available on the subject.
I'm sure some gauges are more accurate and dependable than others.
I'd be interested in others' experiences with: alternators, voltage
regulators, exhaust systems, mags or electronic ignition, props,
instruments, tire life and wear, things to keep an eye on on the RV
airframe, things people would do differently on their next airplane, things
people are really happy that they did on their present airplane.
Maybe we could come up with a format for builders of flying airplanes to
list all of the particulars of their airplane. This could includes, for
instance, what kind of prop and then have a section for the builder to
comment on what he likes/dislikes about the prop. Then, anyone interested
in a particular item listed could post a question about the item to the
builder, via this forum.
If anyone has an interest in this, let me know. I'll post particulars on
my airplane and maybe you all can help refine the format and others will
become interested. I hesitate to post any of the info at this time for fear
of boring everyone. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this might be a good
idea and I don't want to tie up the list with stuff no one is interested in.
If someone else wants to come up with a form, that would be great. Bob
Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | NAS Olypmic Rivets |
In a recent trade a plane, I noticed in an add by "Sky Ranch" about a rivet
sale and Olympic structural rivets. Since they had an "e" mail address, I
asked what they were this is their reply
:"They are a 2nd generation blind non-fod structural rivet whos design was to
replace the Cherry Lock rivet. It was typed into many commerical aircraft at
the time when the CherryMax was outlawed from many aircraft because it
wouldn't meet strenght allowables. It is far superior to any blind rivet out
there. It can be used with any pulling tool that can pull a serrated stem
rivet and who's head is of good enough quality so that the pulling head
pushes against the locking ring".
??Anyone heard of these rivets??
??What kind of pulling head would it take to set these?
Thanks
Howard Kidwell
howardrv(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | HowardRV(at)aol.com |
Super idea!! We have kicked the primer thing around, now folks can give their
next step in the final coat, type of paint, and other subjects such as those
you listed. Kick off a subject then when that has been hashed over, start
another one. Easy to save things that way by subject. By acclamation, you
are elected!!
Howard Kidwell
howardrv(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Japundza <bob(at)pop.holli.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Why not top coat Variprime??] |
> > Bob Skinner RV-6
>
> I weighed a gallon of PPG DX1791/1792 primer last night, it is
> about 8 lbs/gal, variprime is much heavier. PPG primer goes on very thin
> and variprime goes on much heavier. One builder told me he used 4
> gallons of primer on the inside of his RV. So rough estimate is 32 to 40
> lbs is how much weight primer can add. I have done some weight
> calcultions and I find the weight can really add up if you don't watch
> it. You rationalize a lb here and there and pretty soon you have some
> real weight. The manual states you can build the RV-6 for 965 lbs add 50
> for the RV-6A. I have met a lot of pilots who claim 1100-1200 lbs,
> remember the design gross weight is 1600, so we do not have a lot of room
> to spare and still carry full fuel.
>
> My number one building criteria that I measure all decisions by
> is: How much does it weigh? Right now I've decided not to paint the
> aircraft, because as you can see Bob Skinner's paint job is 30 lbs, and I
> consider that fairly light for what he did. Vans paint job with no
> primer is about 15 lbs. At this time, I am unwilling to compromise even
> the 15 pounds. I have budgeted about 7 lbs for exterior painting, for
> stripes and painting the plastic parts, but the rest will be bare aluminum.
>
> The easiest way to improve or mainatin RV performance is to build
> it as light as possible. Every extra pound reduces the performance.
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
> rbusick(at)nmsu.edu
Yes, a gallon of primer can have quite a bit of weight in the can. One thing you
have to
consider is a great portion of the uncured primer is unevaporated solvent. Once
the
primer dries, I'd venture to guess that it doesn't weigh half as much when it is
dry and
on the airplane. I'd sacrafice the negligible amount of extra weight knowing that
my
paint job will stick for a considerable period of time because I would have used
good
primer properly.
On the issue of not having room because of gross weight issues, my answer to this
would
be to bump up the gross weight. Remember, we are building homebuilts here, and
we can do
whatever we want with them. The factory RV-6T and the Nigerian air beetles have
gross
weights of 1800 lbs, yet are no different structurally than mine or anyone else's
RV-6.
I have seen a number of 6's with 1800 lb gross weights and their respective owners
have
had no problems loading them as such.
I am not a proponent of building airplanes heavy; the opposite is true. My point
is the
first thing people look at when they see your airplane is the paint job. Why skimp
there
to avoid a couple of pounds in weight when for another 5-15 lbs you can have a
real
looker. The extra weight there won't hurt you. I'd be willing to bet an airplane
with
and extra 50 pounds of weight will not blown by one lighter in climbout.
Everything is a compromise.
Bob Japundza
23 years old (soloed before I had my driver's license)
RV-6 fuselage on gear
Kokomo, Indiana
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com> |
| Subject: | IS IT TOO COLD TO PRIME? |
>>The wax in the Dixi-cup disolves into some paints and will keep the primer
>>from drying. Variprime is one of the paints that has this problem. Use a
>>cheep touch-up gun (about $20). I have been useing one for 2 years and it's
>>NBD to clean up.
>
>
>I don't know about Variprime, but if you use waxless cups zip guns work great
>with SW.
I agree completely. I use the zip gun for all my larger priming jobs and it
works great as long as it is kept clean (as with all guns). You can get the
unwaxed cups to fit it from Averys. They sell both waxed and unwaxed.
Chris Krieg
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amsteve(at)limestone.kosone.com (a stevenson) |
| Subject: | Installing Fuel Pump |
Greetins: I have just installed my )-360 onto its mount and am having
difficulty(based on ignorance) with the installation of the fuel pump....
Inside the engine there is a small "finger" which I presume is what moves
the rocker arm of the pump when the engine is running. How can this rod be
lifted out of the way so that I can insert the lever of the pump under it?
Thanks in advance for any replies. 2000 hours on my 6A and still plugging...
Al Stevenson
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Steven Kimura <kimuras(at)PEAK.ORG> |
> 2) Quietest compressor types (someone here a few months ago mentioned
> beltless)?
I've upgraded my compressor twice so far. Harbor Freight sells a Quincy
that they say was best rated in Wood magazine, so I looked it up, and they
were right. Rated best on noise and recharge time, among other things.
I've been very happy with mine (model 131A20PN3). Quiet and fast. Runs
easily on a normal 115V/15A circuit. Price recently dropped to $369.
Steve Kimura
skimura(at)cv.hp.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis S. Smidler" <102776.1474(at)compuserve.com> |
Bob Skinner suggestion to get more info out about RV systems, finishes,
instruments, etc. is right on the mark. I'm trying to finish my plane this year
and I would be VERY interested in knowing the kind of experiences list members
have had with props, what kind of experience they have had buying used
instruments and what paint system did they use. Bob, write a lot about your
airplane and I will read it.
Frank Smidler
RV-6 fuselage in jig.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
After the recent flurry of messages about parking brakes, I went ahead and
ordered the Cleveland set from Aircraft Spruce.
It is very small, about 2" x 1 1/2" x 3/4". It is very easy to install, I
placed it on the firewall , and the hoses provided reach it easily.
There is a small lever to operate the brake, and a very simple cable to the
dash is needed.
Incidentally, I have put my fuselarge onto the wheels for the first time. It
is now harder to work inside, and I am working on the brake, and fuel
systems.
Does anyone want a fuselage jig - I am in the Toronto area ??
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | John Cocker <jcocker(at)frontier.canrem.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a paint brush to prime parts |
>>Steve, I have been using the SW wash-primer, I find that when I use a brush
it is difficult to get an even finish - but I don't think this matters. The
object is not appearance. It beats having to clean the spray, when you onlt
needed a small area covered.
For very small areas I have a spray can of Zn chromate, it dries in minutes.
The whole subject of anti-corrosion primers is overkill. I have a 1966
Cherokee 180 which has no primer on the inside surfaces, and a lot of them are
still shiny. It has been kept outside for the last ten years.
Where two aluminum surfaces are in contact, especially if they are different
alloys, there may be a good reason to prime, but for the rest, we are just
paying to transport primer round the skies.
For non- aluminum parts - no discussion here, they need protection.
John RV6A
Engine just arrived.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rwoodard(at)lawyernet.com |
Hello all--
I'm getting close to taking the plunge and ordering a kit. The question
I have is this: Can a Cherokee driver learn to competently fly an
rv-tail dragger so that I'm not sitting in the hangar waiting for the
winds to go away. I've owned my Cherokee for 4 1/2 years, but really
like tandam seating. I'm bigger than the average bear and think the
tandam seating would be more comfortable for both me and my passenger.
I'm thinking seriously about the -8 when it becomes available.
Some folks say I ought to sick with the nosewheel because of the landing
with a crosswind problem. Others have said that a competent tailwheel
pilot can handle about the same amount of wind as a nosewheel plane.
I'm not asking about the subjective merits of either the nose or the
tailwheel. What I'd like to know is the practical/usefulness comments.
Thanks in advance!
Rod Woodard
Loveland, Colorado
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
Excellent idea, Bob. As a neophyte, I think that sort of information
would be invaluable. As a starting point, these are the subject headings
under which I have been saving messages:
aerobatics
aerodynamics
basement
Boeing_Surplus
certified
cost
empennage
engine
failures
fasteners
flight-test
fuel-system
heat
IFR
instruments
insurance
jigs
lights
material
misc-tips
painting
people
planning
pod [baggage pod]
priming
prop
pubs
quick-build
registration
riveting
safety
skis
tools
trim
web [web pages]
wings
wiring
Those of you out there doing web pages might want to keep an archive with
each builder's information in it (and a photo, of course).
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
> I'd be interested in others' experiences with: alternators, voltage
> regulators, exhaust systems, mags or electronic ignition, props,
> instruments, tire life and wear, things to keep an eye on on the RV
> airframe, things people would do differently on their next airplane, things
> people are really happy that they did on their present airplane.
> Maybe we could come up with a format for builders of flying airplanes to
> list all of the particulars of their airplane. This could includes, for
> instance, what kind of prop and then have a section for the builder to
> comment on what he likes/dislikes about the prop. Then, anyone interested
> in a particular item listed could post a question about the item to the
> builder, via this forum.
> Bob
> Skinner RV-6
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com (Alex Munro) |
| Subject: | Re: Why not top coat Variprime?? |
>>
>> I weighed a gallon of PPG DX1791/1792 primer last night, it is
>>about 8 lbs/gal, variprime is much heavier. PPG primer goes on very thin
>>and variprime goes on much heavier. One builder told me he used 4
>>gallons of primer on the inside of his RV. So rough estimate is 32 to 40
>>lbs is how much weight primer can add.
Keep in mind the stuff that evaporates from the primer. The weights when
dry may be significantly different. Perhaps you could spray out a section
onto aluminum of known square footage, and weigh it dry.
I hadn't tuned in to this primer thread until now, but seeing it started me
thinking that if primer weight is of such concern, why not consider Aldodine
or clear coat anodizing of the parts? You could find an aerospace or
commercial sheet metal job shop in your area that might be willing to do
batches of parts for a reasonable price.
Just a thought.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Munro
amunro(at)amunro.seanet.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com> |
Steven,
>> Harbor Freight sells a Quincy that they say was best rated in Wood magazine,
so I looked it up, and they were right. Rated best on noise and recharge time,
among other things. I've been very happy with mine (model 131A20PN3). Quiet and
fast. <<
I saw this compressor in the HF catalog, and have narrowed my choice down to it
or the CH 26 gal. (also coming recommended here on the list). I'll have to drop
by the showroom and check both of them out.
Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAINPOOF(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Deflection |
How important is the 25 degree down deflection on the elevators. I have no
problem on the 30 degree up but the best I can get down is 23 degrees, The
control horn hits the rear HS spar.
Jerry
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RAINPOOF(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Elevator deflection |
Elevator deflection is 30 up and 25 down as standard with minimum 25 up and
20 down.
My elevator control arm hits the bottom edge of rear HS spar at 23 degrees
down. Is this the norm? No problem? The up elevator hits the HS skin at about
30, I think this is the norm, right?
Jerry
RV-6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
You have already seen the responses recommending cutting wheels to trim the
skin; these sound like look advice, but I did just use shears and got fine
results on my RV-4.
My problem was the actual fabrication of the trim tab. On my first try (yes,
I had to get new material from Van's and make a second trim tab) I cut the
trim tab and bent it exactly per the plans. The resulting trim tab did not
exactly match the trailing edge of my elevator.
Dissatisfied with the result, I called Van's and got new trim tab material.
Van's recommended making a mockup trim tab out of heavy cardstock/posterboard
and tape, trimming the cardstock as required to get a perfect match with the
elevator. The cardstock trim tab is then unfolded out and used as a template
to cut the aluminum trim tab skin. This resulted in a trim tab that exactly
lines up the angles and trailing edge of the elevator.
Hope this helps.
Mike Kukulski (KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com)
RV-4 (Control column and pushrods)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
I built both the RMI microEncoder and microMonitor from the kits. The kit
materials and documentation are first class, and were easily achieveable by
even a first-timer like myself with no previous electronics soldering
experience. Both my units have been cold- and hot-soak tested already and are
awaiting installation in my panel when I get to that stage.
The product support from RMI is also first-rate. I had a slight flicker in my
microMonitor display that I could not correct. I shipped it to RMI for
diagnostic testing/troubleshooting and it came back promptly with the problem
fixed and a printed readout of all test results and corrective actions taken.
The only cost for this was one-way shipping (with insurance!) to RMI; they
paid the return shipping.
Highly recommended.
Mike Kukulski (KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com)
RV-4 (Control column and pushrods)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
The hype out there about special piloting abilities being required to fly
taildraggers is just that - hype. Probably propogated by taildragger pilots
out there looking for a reason to puff up their chests and look down on
someone else at the local aerodrome.
The important element here is TRAINING. You need to find a taildragger
qualified CFI to give you a proper introduction to taildraggers and get his
endorsement (this is now required by FAA). Piper Cub, Citabria, Aeronca,
whatever - all are fine trainers for RV taildragger needs. Remember, everyone
in the old days soloed in Cubs and Champs or something similar - you can fly
one, too!
I bet you like the taildragger better as well after you learn the ropes.
Mike Kukulski (KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com)
RV-4 (Fuselage innards)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Re: IFR requirments |
> I've always thought one deficency in most IFR training is that there is
> no way for the instructor to simulate actual vacum system failure,
> since most IFR trainers don't have anything like a vacum system
> "circuit breaker". Seems to me this would be the only way to train for
> a REAL vacum system failure. But I guess since I'm building the plane I
> could install a co-pilot accessable vacum shut-off valve, couldn't I? I
> just might do that.
I entertained this thought *very* briefly, until I remembered several
articles in "Flight Safety" magazine (or maybe "I learned about flying
from that" from "Flying" magazine). One in particular that I remember
involved an instrument training flight where the instructor was able to
disable the DG. It was a night flight. The student put the plane into
an UA. The instructor, forgetting he had disabled the DG, then tried to
use it to fix the problem.
They both lived.
I agree with your concern. However, if you do something like this,
make *darn* sure it's only used during CAVU, *day* flights. Personally,
I don't want one more think to check on my checklist.
-Doors
-Harnesses
-Breakers
-Vacuum disable switches
-etc.
-J
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee) |
>> 2) Quietest compressor types (someone here a few months ago mentioned
>> beltless)?
>
>I've upgraded my compressor twice so far. Harbor Freight sells a Quincy
>that they say was best rated in Wood magazine, so I looked it up, and they
>were right. Rated best on noise and recharge time, among other things.
>I've been very happy with mine (model 131A20PN3). Quiet and fast. Runs
>easily on a normal 115V/15A circuit. Price recently dropped to $369.
>
>Steve Kimura
>skimura(at)cv.hp.com
>
>
>
Steve:
What's the horsepower, airflow and FLA (on the motor data plate) for this one?
Is it belt drive?
Can it be rewired for 220 volts?
I had heard about this at Western Tool Supply but they didn't have any
available because of the article you mentioned.
Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles, Vancouver, WA jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com
RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) ..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Well, its goof-up time again. I accidentally trimmed my top outer wing
skin on my 2nd wing flush with the rear spar (like the bottom skin is
trimmed). I was obviously thinking "Hey, I've already built one wing -
who needs to look at instructions?" Sigh.
So, I've made a doubler plate to reattach the cut-off part of the
trailing edge of the skin, but now I'm leaning towards just replacing the
darn thing.
Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
skin?
Thanks,
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Weight of Primer |
I am using Polyfiber EP420 Epoxy Primer. I asked the Polyfiber guy about
the finished weight of the primer and I think he estimated about 30% of the
"in the can" weight.
I have primed every square inch of the interior so far and have used
about 3.6 quarts. I can't see using more than a gallon on the remaining
parts (fuselage). So, lets say 30% x 2 gallons x 9 lbs per gallon (wet).
Thats 5.4 lbs, total, and thats using a heavy, wet coat on all the
non-alclad parts and skin faying surfaces,and a very thin coat everywhere
else.
Weight is weight, but 5.4 lbs ain't much. Besides, a primered structure
*looks* nicer, IMHO. :)
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Wires past the -6 Spar |
Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of nutplates
on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar to
the front. There is the hole in the spar for the trim, since I am using
electrics there. Do people put holes in the spar bulkhead, above the spar,
and if so, how big can you go?
Bruce Patton,
Fues out of jig, doing nutplates
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
>Some folks say I ought to sick with the nosewheel because of the landing
>with a crosswind problem. Others have said that a competent tailwheel
>pilot can handle about the same amount of wind as a nosewheel plane.
>
>I'm not asking about the subjective merits of either the nose or the
>tailwheel. What I'd like to know is the practical/usefulness comments.
>
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
>
Rod: One advantage of Van's kits is, you don't have to decide configuration
(RV-6 or RV-6A) for awhile. You can order the tail and wing kits and still
be thinking about configuration. If you choose a RV-4 or 8, your problem is
solved. If most of your flying is alone, I think the 4 or 8 would be great.
If you plan on going any distance with a passenger in the back, I think you
should have a long list of friends :). I rode from central Nebraska to the
RV fly-in at Boone, Iowa last year (310 miles) in the back seat of a 4 and
was ready to take a bus home. I'm 6" 3" and weigh 205 lbs. Electric flaps
on this airplane would have been welcome to my left leg.
I think side-by-side seating would be appreciated by most passengers,
especially wives. I built a 6 and now I'm building a 6-A. I have around
900 tail dragger hours, 200 in the RV-6 and the rest in: RV-3, Cessna 170,
M-5 Maule, Citabria and a 90 hp Cub. I'll probably build another 6 when I
get done with the 6-A. When I brought my 6 back from the paint shop
(hadn't flown it for 2 months) and had to land it in a 25 knot 90 degree
crosswind, I was wishing it was a nose geared plane.
I like the looks of the tail dragger better and you do get a certain
satisfaction in flying a type of airplane that a lot of people can't. I
think, in general, that the ability to fly a tail dragger makes you a better
pilot. I would recommend that you take instruction in taildraggers and find
out if you like them before you decide what you want to build.
Practical/usefulness---
Taildraggers- look better (IMO) and are "cool". They are a little bit
better suited to rougher field conditions (although with the small tires, a
badger hole could still be a disaster.)
Nose gear- easier ground handeling, takeoffs and landings. (Cessna, Piper,
etc. went to nose gears years ago for some pretty good reasons.) You would
probably have cheaper insurance and the re-sale value would probably be
higher, since there are a lot more nose dragger pilots. Better view for
taxiing and passenger peace of mind (they like to see where they're going.)
Good luck adn welcome to the club. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson) |
| Subject: | Instrument flight |
> Speaking of recovery from UA, I was reading an article on Avweb about
> vacuum pumps. The article opened with something to the effect that
> statistically if your AI dies in IMC, you die.
Like I said in a previous message -- I just started my instrument
training. I have 4 hours or so in the sim, about 3 in the air.
Another lesson this evening. I'll be talking to my instructor about
all this.
However, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I don't use the AI all that
heavily. In the old Cessna's my FBO has, wings-level is not always
exactly wings-level on the AI. Thus, I pretty much only use it during
transitional points. For instance, I use it to help roll out of a turn.
However, I tend to use the DG, altimeter and VSI much more heavily, and
I think the airspeed indicator gets about as much attention as the AI
does.
Of course, if I lose my vacuum, I'll lose the DG, too. I think that'll
hurt me more than loss of the AI. You can hear what the plane is doing
for the most part, anyways. You can't tell turns, but you can certainly
tell differences in pitch pretty quick.
This lack of reliance on the AI may point out why I sometimes have a
problem with "pulling left" all the time. I consistantly find that
I've rolled the plane in a shallow left bank, usually when I'm mucking
with approach plates or writing down my "WRIMTIM" notes.
The instructor is also good at distracting me from doing something with
telling me to do something else first. For instance, he'll have me work
on WRIMTIM while making a 35-degree heading change due to ATC vectors.
Which means I end up with a 50 degree heading change followed by a -15
degree change. Sigh.
-J
--
Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w)
Showpage Software, Inc.
435 Ford Rd, Suite 315
St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Curt,
I would be inclined to use a drill bit that is slightly larger (Probably
about #39) and gives good hole centering. Then use rivets a 1/2 size longer
and count on them filling the hole as they are driven. You would probably
topple a few of them during driving but I would guess not too many. Have a
try on some scrap first to see how it goes.
An alternative would be to drill the holes #30 and use the "cheater" rivits
that Van sells (3/32 head, 1/8 body).
I think the splice plate solution would stare at you for the whole time you
owned the aeroplane.
Leo Davies
Skinning fuselage.
6A
>Well, its goof-up time again. I accidentally trimmed my top outer wing
>skin on my 2nd wing flush with the rear spar (like the bottom skin is
>trimmed). I was obviously thinking "Hey, I've already built one wing -
>who needs to look at instructions?" Sigh.
>
>So, I've made a doubler plate to reattach the cut-off part of the
>trailing edge of the skin, but now I'm leaning towards just replacing the
>darn thing.
>
>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
>will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
>once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
>the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
>skin?
>
>Thanks,
>Curt Reimer
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rust47rg(at)one.net |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
......
>
>I'm not asking about the subjective merits of either the nose or the
>tailwheel. What I'd like to know is the practical/usefulness comments.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
>
>
Rod:
You learned to fly the cherokee.... you can learn to fly with the little
wheel in the back.
I didn't have a grat deal of tail wheel time when I started my 4 but I made
an effort to build up some time while I was building.
I have found the RV to be an easy taildrager to fly as compaired with say a
luscome. You learn to respect the airplane and as they say "fly it all the
way to the hanger".
Yea, you do pay more attention to forcast winds, but as you build time you
learn what both you and the airplane can handle.
I have landed with a 15 knot 90 degree crosswind without much work. I have also
landed with a 20 knot 90 degree crosswind and it was not fun. I was glad
the runway was wide.
I was also attracted to the centerline seating. If I had it all to do over I
would still build the 4. I've seen the 8 and I like the 4. For what my mission
is it's perfect.
Regards:
Rusty Gossard
N47RG RV-4 Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
>
>I'm not asking about the subjective merits of either the nose or the
>tailwheel. What I'd like to know is the practical/usefulness comments.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
>
Rod: forgot to mention. If you build a 6-A, you'll need enough room in your
shop to install the wings while the fuselage is upside down in the jig to
fit and drill on the main gear leg weldments. Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Archive Search |
Great idea Andy.
There seems to be a huge knowledgebase out there from people that have 'been
there, done that'. Perhaps some of the info from the EAA Chapter newsletters
relating to RV's could be scanned and condensed and either published or
placed online. Nice job, any takers?
Flapping away - and the smelly stuff oozing in the right tank.
Royce Craven
Australia
>Just a quick thought;
>
>Would you like to see the RV archives in print as sought of a "best of the
>internet" book.
>
>I really have not put much thought into the details of such a project, but if
>their was interest, it might be worth considering.
>
>Andy Gold
>Easy Publishing
>
>(I do the 14 Years of the RV-Ator Book)
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | forrest1(at)haven.ios.com (Jerry Forrest) |
| Subject: | Re: Weight of Primer |
>I am using Polyfiber EP420 Epoxy Primer. I asked the Polyfiber guy about
>the finished weight of the primer and I think he estimated about 30% of the
>"in the can" weight.
>
>I have primed every square inch of the interior so far and have used
>about 3.6 quarts. I can't see using more than a gallon on the remaining
>parts (fuselage). So, lets say 30% x 2 gallons x 9 lbs per gallon (wet).
>Thats 5.4 lbs, total, and thats using a heavy, wet coat on all the
>non-alclad parts and skin faying surfaces,and a very thin coat everywhere
>else.
>
>Weight is weight, but 5.4 lbs ain't much. Besides, a primered structure
>*looks* nicer, IMHO. :)
>
>Curt Reimer
>
Gary Sobek, a rv6 builder for 8 yrs, told me that he once participated in a
class project where they were required to prime both sides of a piece of
2024 T3 .032 aluminium with variprime. They acid washed and primed,
weighing before and after to the nearest gram. The weight after priming
was 1% more than the unprimed piece. Any piece weighing more than 1.5% was
considered too much. Total weight for a rv6 should be way under ten
pounds. This weight agrees with what curt reimer calculated for his
primer.
Jerry Forrest RV6
forrest1(at)haven.ios.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Francis S. Smidler" <102776.1474(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Using a paint brush to prime parts |
One last comment on primers. I took a pcs of alclad alum w/ primer and one
without and put it into a salt spray booth used to test paint coating
protection. After 25 hrs a pcs of steel that is well painted will show
significant signs of corrosion on the edges. Both samples of alum. after 25 hrs
showed absolutely no affect at all.
All the evidence, my test and the 50 year old pipers and cessnas, proves you
don't need primer on alclad. So don't worry about it and build the airplanes so
that the real fun, in the air, can be had.
Frank Smidler
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Ross Rebgetz <Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
>I've recently started on the left elevator, and am looking for advice as to a
>good way to cut out the trim tab - tools to use, sequence, etc. How did you
>do it??
I'm at this stage also. I also used the disk and die grinder. I find it
safer to drill a hole at corners and in the bend line before cutting. It
also gives you the radius.
Regards
Ross
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: +61 077 538 570
Fax: +61 077 538 600
CSIRO Mail: CSIRO
Division of Tropical Crops & Pastures Davies Laboratory
Davies Laboratory Private Mail Bag
University Road Aitkenvale Qld 4814
Townsville Australia
AUSTRALIA
Email: Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Instrument flight |
> However, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I don't use the AI all that
> heavily. In the old Cessna's my FBO has, wings-level is not always
> exactly wings-level on the AI. Thus, I pretty much only use it during
> transitional points. For instance, I use it to help roll out of a turn.
> However, I tend to use the DG, altimeter and VSI much more heavily, and
> I think the airspeed indicator gets about as much attention as the AI
> does.
I only have an hour in an RV-4, but I've got a lot of hours in actual
and "under the hood" in training jets (former military QFI). From the
way the RVs handle, I would guess that they are similar IFR platforms
to training jets (T-37, Tutor, etc.). If that's true, I think you'll
find yourself using the AI a lot more if you fly IFR in an RV than you
do in a Cessna. When you first start doing IF in that kind of airplane,
you really live by the AI. That's not to say that you can't do partial
panel in them, but you wouldn't voluntarily do it if you had a
functioning AI! Anyone out there with IFR time in RVs have comments
on that?
> The instructor is also good at distracting me from doing something with
> telling me to do something else first. For instance, he'll have me work
> on WRIMTIM while making a 35-degree heading change due to ATC vectors.
> Which means I end up with a 50 degree heading change followed by a -15
> degree change. Sigh.
You find out how poor the human brain is at multi-tasking pretty quick
when you start flying IFR! The best solution to the instructor-induced
workload is the pre-emptive strike: start doing it before he suggests
it. Yeah, like it's that easy, right?
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
I like the idea about new subjects, unfortunately I won't have much to
offer because most of the time I've been lurking in the shadows and
learning from the postings. Occasionally when I stumble on a good idea I
post it as a tip hoping someone else can save some time or $ from it. Keep
up the good ideas Bob Skinner.
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Shelby1138(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
B.F.,
I purchased the BAC lighting kits and am very happy with them. They come with
very easy instructions and the pieces are anodized black and fit perfectly in
the outside LE. I also got a chance to look at the duck works plans and
lights though not installed - another builder here is installing them. I
don't think you could go wrong with either. I like the Barnard light fixture
better-regular GE aviation lights. I also like the small opening(lense
cover).
Shelby in Nasvhille
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Shelby1138(at)aol.com |
I agree with some way to have messages grouped by topic. There seems to be so
many messages every day, if I am off for two or three days it takes me an
hour or so to wade through all of the messages - many unrelated to my current
set of issues and also lots of duplicated(maybe because of AOL-who knows).
Unfortunately, hidden among these is usually a tidbit that makes it
worthwhile.
Shelby in Nashville, TN
#22666 working on Wings
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Curt Wrote....
>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
>will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
>once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
>the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
>skin?
>Thanks,
>Curt Reimer
Curt, IMHO if you don't replace the skin you will regret it later... its going
to be
visable, and you will get fed up of answering "WHY" at fly ins etc. one of those
"bite
the bullet" situations... I think you are only talking $40.00 or so anyway.
To get those holes right - de-dimple -!
Just flatten 'em back out using a light hammer on your backriveting plate or table
saw
top....- I speak from experience here!!!- Then you should have no trouble getting
the
holes to match up.
Regards
Rob Lee - Nearly done 6A
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Deflection |
On Sun, 21 Jan 1996 RAINPOOF(at)aol.com wrote:
> How important is the 25 degree down deflection on the elevators. I have no
> problem on the 30 degree up but the best I can get down is 23 degrees, The
> control horn hits the rear HS spar.
23 degrees down is just fine.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
On Sun, 21 Jan 1996 BPattonsoa(at)aol.com wrote:
> Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of nutplates
> on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar to
> the front.
I'm not quite that far along yet, but the way I've seen it done that I
liked is to run your wires along the sides of the fuselage under the
armrests. With a little joggle, you can then run wires clear back to the
tail by securing them to the J-channels.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Deflection |
You'll need to notch the spar slightly in order to achieve the deflection,
I think everyone has done this. Just don't take too much and dont leave
any square corners.
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Curt, If you decide to go with a new skin, you can use the old one as a
template. In order to be as accurate as possible you might get your flat
sets out and take the dimples out of the skin. then mark and drill the new
skin. After the new skin is dimpled and the holes enlarged (as they do
when dimpled) I think you'll find your rivet hole alignment will be better
than you expected.
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
>become interested. I hesitate to post any of the info at this time for fear
>of boring everyone. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this might be a good
>idea and I don't want to tie up the list with stuff no one is interested in.
>If someone else wants to come up with a form, that would be great. Bob
>Skinner RV-6
>
Please, post away. I think that is a great idea. I think the topics have
stagnated on primers and wing skins because far more people are building than
flying. I would love to have your (and others) info on everything you
mentioned.
BTW Bob, ANYTHING that you post is very informative and well worth reading.
I don't think anyone would be bored...
Do you or anyone have any useage info on the VM1000 setup? It's a bit
pricey, but if I shell out the dough for a new engine I would like the very
best to keep it healthy.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
>Well, its goof-up time again. I accidentally trimmed my top outer wing
>skin on my 2nd wing flush with the rear spar (like the bottom skin is
>trimmed). I was obviously thinking "Hey, I've already built one wing -
>who needs to look at instructions?" Sigh.
>
>So, I've made a doubler plate to reattach the cut-off part of the
>trailing edge of the skin, but now I'm leaning towards just replacing the
>darn thing.
>
>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
>will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
>once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
>the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
>skin?
>
>Thanks,
>Curt Reimer
>
Just a thought; check with a model airplane/whatever store and see if there
is a brass tubing that will fit inside the hole after the ribs have been
dimpled. If you can find such a tube place a drill bit inside the tube and
drill a 'pilot' hole in the new skin. The new hole in the skin will be much
smaller than a #41 bit but can then be drilled out to size. If you can't
find a tube of the right size find someone with a small lathe and make your
own.
If you _really_ want to make work for yourself you could drill the skins and
ribs out to 1/8". This would entail redimpling but, if you use the rivets
with the smaller heads, no one will be the wiser.
In any case, no need to splice the skin on the trailing edge.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
>
>Hello all--
>
>I'm getting close to taking the plunge and ordering a kit. The question
>I have is this: Can a Cherokee driver learn to competently fly an
>rv-tail dragger so that I'm not sitting in the hangar waiting for the
>winds to go away. I've owned my Cherokee for 4 1/2 years, but really
>like tandam seating. I'm bigger than the average bear and think the
>tandam seating would be more comfortable for both me and my passenger.
>I'm thinking seriously about the -8 when it becomes available.
>
>Some folks say I ought to sick with the nosewheel because of the landing
>with a crosswind problem. Others have said that a competent tailwheel
>pilot can handle about the same amount of wind as a nosewheel plane.
>
>I'm not asking about the subjective merits of either the nose or the
>tailwheel. What I'd like to know is the practical/usefulness comments.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
Let me try to answer this for you or at least give you my opinion. I've
built my RV-6 and, with help from some taildragging instructors, flew it
with only about 80 hours flight time on the books, said time in only
nose-draggers. I do recommend that you spend some time in one or two models
of taildraggers. If you fly a Citabria, Cub, Aeronca, etc. you will be
pleasantly surprised at how responsive and easy to handle the RV is. For
example, I had one landing where I drifted off the runway just before
touching down. My left wheel was in the gravel, right on the pavement; I
gave it full right rudder and brake, got turned to about 45 degrees from the
centerline to the right, back onto the runway and, somehow, back onto the
centerline. It was VERY exciting and I don't care to ever repeat it but the
point is that the RV is forgiving and extremely responsive. You will find
that your feet will respond, as needed, when needed, without conscious thought.
Get the -4 or -8. If you don't, you'll be always wondering if you made a
mistake.
As far as how much crosswind the -4 can handle; Greg Rainwater told me about
a landing he had in California where the crosswind was over 20 knots.
Personally, my limits are around 16 knots, but the plane can handle it. The
only real excitement is when the wind's gusting but that can cause problems
for any kind of aircraft.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator deflection |
>Elevator deflection is 30 up and 25 down as standard with minimum 25 up and
>20 down.
>My elevator control arm hits the bottom edge of rear HS spar at 23 degrees
>down. Is this the norm? No problem? The up elevator hits the HS skin at about
>30, I think this is the norm, right?
>
>Jerry
>RV-6A
>
If it is hitting the flange it is ok to trim the flange back. Don't
however, trim the spar strap, only the thin material of the flange.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
>I built both the RMI microEncoder and microMonitor from the kits.
Gosh, I feel like a dolt. What are these products exactly? Do you have a
ph# or E-mail address?
Thanks,
Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
>Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of nutplates
>on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar to
>the front. There is the hole in the spar for the trim, since I am using
>electrics there. Do people put holes in the spar bulkhead, above the spar,
>and if so, how big can you go?
>
>Bruce Patton,
>Fues out of jig, doing nutplates
>
Don't know about others but I ran all my electrics inside the trim piece at
the top of the canopy opening. I'm talking about the part you put your
hands on as you lever yourself out of the cockpit. I see no reason that you
couldn't drill a minimal (under 1") hole in the middle of the spar to run
wires from front to rear.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
<199601210402.WAA13927(at)iac1.ltec.net>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> Maybe we could come up with a format for builders of flying airplanes to
> list all of the particulars of their airplane. This could includes, for
> instance, what kind of prop and then have a section for the builder to
> comment on what he likes/dislikes about the prop. Then, anyone interested
> in a particular item listed could post a question about the item to the
> builder, via this forum.
> If anyone has an interest in this, let me know. I'll post particulars on
> my airplane and maybe you all can help refine the format and others will
> become interested. I hesitate to post any of the info at this time for fear
> of boring everyone. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this might be a good
> idea and I don't want to tie up the list with stuff no one is interested in.
> If someone else wants to come up with a form, that would be great. Bob
> Skinner RV-6
I think this is a great idea. I would love to hear some specifics on
folks airplanes and the discussions it should generate.
rudder almost done, started right elevator....
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company RV6A #23945
voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
Fellow RVer's: Here is kind of what I had in mind for format. If anyone
has any suggestions to make this info more complete, let me know. I'm using
Eudora and have sent a copy to myself and all of the formating seems OK. I
know enough about computers and E-mail to be dangerous. Maybe someone with
more knowledge on operations can take this over so that it will work for
everyone. After we arrive at a final form, I will delete all of the info
and send a blank form that hopefully people can fill in a re-transmit. Or,
if a computer expert would like to take this over at this time, that would
be fine. The bottom line is to have something that is easy to use and of
value to fellow builders.
Thanks, Bob Skinner
NAME: Bob Skinner 43461 Rd. 757, Lexington,NE 68850 308-324-4437
BSkinner(at)ltec.net
MODEL: RV-6
DATE FINISHED: Feb. 95
TOTAL TIME: 200 hrs.
ENGINE:Lycoming 0-320-E2A, 150 hp, Facet 4SPA
PROP: Props, Inc. wood
CANOPY: Tilt-up with struts
STARTER: Sky Tec
ALTERNATOR: Pelican 35 amp
VOLT. REG.: from Van's
BATTERY: Concord RG 35 amp
EXHAUST: Vetterman 4 pipe mild steel
ELEVATOR TRIM: Manual
FLAPS: Manual
BRAKES: pilot side only, no park TIRE PRESSURE: 40 lbs.
PANEL: Full gyro, TKM comm, Bendix Xponder, ARNAV R-50 Loran, Flight Com
403D with digital recorder, Apollo 920+ GPS, Naviaid Devices wing eveler,
Rochester elcetric oil temp, oil press and fuel press., Mitchell fuel
gauges, GEM Insight CHT/EGT, Braal electronic tach, Telex ANR 4000 headset
LIGHTING: strobe-vert. stab. tip, dual landing lights-tips, wing tip nav.
PAINT: Primed inside with Variprime. Exterior-PPG DX 1791 wash primer, DP
48 epoxy primer, Durethane top coat.
INTERIOR: $ 300.00. Seat cushions. Temper foam 3-layer laminates, Sunmate
1" backs, 2" additional layers of generic med density foam on bottom, 1" on
backs, 2 control stick boots. Cloth. Done locally.
INSURANCE: AUA $897 $ 35,000 hull, in motion. Liability, bodily injury
and property damage: $1,000,000 each person, $100,000 each pass., $200,000
all pass., $1,000,000 each accident. deductible $500 in motion, $100 not in
motiion.
OTHER (MISC): I'm using Aviation Products full swivel tail wheel and like
it. Purchased a canopy cover from DJ Lauristen, like it. Navid Devices
wing leveler-like it but understand prices went up. undecided whether to put
on RV I'm building now, probably will. Using Vetterman 4 pipe, mild steel
exhaust system, 200 hrs, no problems. Good guy to do business with. Bought
a Tolle stainless system but never put it on due to all of the problems that
people seem to have. I didn't use the vernier throttle that Van's sends.
Used a regular throttle cable with a screw lock. Did use the rachet cable
for mixture cable. I like the Skytec starter, turns engine over better than
Pretolite. The Concord battery seems to be working fine. I'm using an Eze
heat sump heater and it does a good job of pre-heating the engine.
PROBLEMS: I have trouble getting enough heat in the cabin and am switching
to Vetterman stainless cross-over and putting one muff on each pipe, hooked
in series. The brass, three way fuel valve started binding up at about 170
hours so replaced with 3-way valve with "Delrin spool", these work great.
I'm having a hard time getting oil temp over btm of green in cold weather.
I put a cockpit adjustable door over the oil cooler that is mounted on the
left front horizontal baffle. This is conected to a button lock control
cable. It works fine, but on some days, even with the opening completely
closed, the oil temp will not get high enough. I put vert baffles in front
of the two front cylinders which were running 100 degrees cooler than the
rear two. This raised the temps 50-75 degrees. The GEM Insight EGT/CHT
gauge. One reason to buy this gauge is to help find peak. It doesn't work
very well and I will not use it on my next airplane. I do like seeing
CHT/EGT's of all cylinders at a glance. Might by the JPI, which has a
digital readout for temps for the next plane or maybe the VM1000. Replaced
McCreary tires with Goodyear 5.00x5 6-ply tires after 63 hours. My tires
wear quickly on the insides and I didn't rotate tires soon enough. Like the
Goodyear tires much better. On next RV, will delete tires from Van's and
order Goodyears.
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
<9601221551.AA04491(at)koala.icn.su.OZ.AU>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> I would be inclined to use a drill bit that is slightly larger (Probably
> about #39) and gives good hole centering. Then use rivets a 1/2 size longer
> and count on them filling the hole as they are driven. You would probably
> topple a few of them during driving but I would guess not too many. Have a
> try on some scrap first to see how it goes.
An EAA tech counsellor showed me a neat trick on this. You can make
your own cheater rivets by gently squeezing them in a hand squeezer
before driving them with the gun. They can be fatten'ed up this way
to fit a #39, #38 etc. This would be somewhat tedious for a whole
wing skin though...
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder |
>Rich asked:
>1. Are those using this device happy with it?
I really like the way the microEncoder operates. I have had one installed for
about 5 years.
>2. Are you using it for your primary VFR instruments, i.e., no analog backup?
I replaced the vertical speed indicator and the blind encoder with the
microEncoder, and left the altimeter
and airspeed indicator on the panel.
>3. Do you get raised eyebrows from the FAA inspectors if don't have analog
backups?
I wouldn't want to speak for the FAA. For myself, however, I found having the
airspeed indicator a very
useful non-electrical instrument to have today, until I isolated an in-flight
electrical problem on my RV-3.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 N47RV (9.8 hrs on elecric variable pitch prop. 0.2 hr to go to remove
restricted area limitation.)
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen ) |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
You wrote:
>The important element here is TRAINING. You need to find a taildragger
>qualified CFI to give you a proper introduction to taildraggers and
>get his endorsement (this is now required by FAA).
What FAR?
Finn - Just got my RV-3 kit
Piper Cub, Citabria, Aeronca,
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
Hey Skinner, lay it on us! I would love to know everything about your plane
and would not be bored by even the smallest detail. Experience is the best
teacher. Some one elses experience runs a close second. Go for it!
Jim Cone
Working on finishing kit
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KingD(at)direct.ca (David W.S. King) |
| Subject: | Re: Why not top coat Variprime?? |
>>>
>>> I weighed a gallon of PPG DX1791/1792 primer last night, it is
>>>about 8 lbs/gal, variprime is much heavier. PPG primer goes on very thin
>>>and variprime goes on much heavier. One builder told me he used 4
>>>gallons of primer on the inside of his RV. So rough estimate is 32 to 40
>>>lbs is how much weight primer can add.
>
>Keep in mind the stuff that evaporates from the primer. The weights when
>dry may be significantly different. Perhaps you could spray out a section
>onto aluminum of known square footage, and weigh it dry.
>
>I hadn't tuned in to this primer thread until now, but seeing it started me
>thinking that if primer weight is of such concern, why not consider Aldodine
>or clear coat anodizing of the parts? You could find an aerospace or
>commercial sheet metal job shop in your area that might be willing to do
>batches of parts for a reasonable price.
>
Depending on what paint system is used, ie primers and finish, an aircraft
the size of a 172 will gain 8-12 lbs with a paint job.
Thats what the avg change was for that aircraft when i worked at a paintshop.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "John E. Brick" <p01315(at)psilink.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
I replaced one of the HS skins after a dimpling error (the skin and
skeleton both had all holes dimpled). I fitted the new skin on the skeleton
to get the correct overhang and back drilled three holes on each side for
alignment purposes. I cut the leading edge off of the old skin and hammered
the dimples flat. Then I clecoed the old skin on top of the new using the
three alignment holes and drilled the rest. Can't remember the drill
size, 40 or 41. It seemed to fit perfectly.
The HS skin is smaller and thicker so it is probably less prone
to wrinkling than your wing skin.
John Brick
>FROM: Curt Reimer <...MBnet.MB.CA!Curt_Reimer>
>
>Well, its goof-up time again. I accidentally trimmed my top outer wing
>skin on my 2nd wing flush with the rear spar (like the bottom skin is
>trimmed). I was obviously thinking "Hey, I've already built one wing -
>who needs to look at instructions?" Sigh.
>
>So, I've made a doubler plate to reattach the cut-off part of the
>trailing edge of the skin, but now I'm leaning towards just replacing the
>darn thing.
>
>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
>will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
>once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
>the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
>skin?
>
>Thanks,
>Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
For anyone who has purchased an 'oil-less' compressor from Sears...
I purchased mine almost two years ago and really hate it (noise). I
called my local Sears this week and told them how much I disliked it.
They told me to bring it in and they will exchange it for whatever I
like. I ordered a 5hp oil-filled compressor.
I don't have a receipt and told them the compressor is over a year
old. No problem. They looked up the price of the old one and gave
me a credit on the new one.
Pretty impressive. You might want to give it a try.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair
this weekend. One of the things that caught my eye was that the
builder had wrapped all of the exhaust system, from the exhaust port
down the stack to the bottom of the cowl including the cabin heat
muff, with a heat wrap. He gave
two reasons: 1) the tightly cowled Lancair needs all the heat
protection it can get; and 2) maintaining the temperature of the
exhaust gas in the pipe helps with horsepower. He says this is
because exhaust gas slows as it cools, and that causes back pressure
at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas to retain as much heat as
possible until it hits the air under the airplane.
Makes sense to me, but so does the flat tax so what do I know? Any
of you engine types have comments?
He says the wrap can be purchased from Spruce and he used it on his
race cars. I asked if he was worried about not catching any cracks in the
exhaust system because of the wrap. He's not but I think I would be.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward) |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
>Gosh, I feel like a dolt. What are these products exactly? Do you have a
>ph# or E-mail address?
>
>Thanks,
>Ed Bundy
Rocky Mountain Instrumenet
P.O. Box 683
Thermopolis, WY 82443
Phone number: 307-864-9300
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
A>Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of nutplates
>>on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar to
>>the front. There is the hole in the spar for the trim, since I am using
>>electrics there. Do people put holes in the spar bulkhead, above the spar,
>>and if so, how big can you go?
>>
>>Bruce Patton,
>>Fues out of jig, doing nutplates
>>
>Don't know about others but I ran all my electrics inside the trim piece at
>the top of the canopy opening. I'm talking about the part you put your
>hands on as you lever yourself out of the cockpit. I see no reason that you
>couldn't drill a minimal (under 1") hole in the middle of the spar to run
>wires from front to rear.
>
>John Ammeter
>ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
>Seattle WA, USA
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
>
>As John said, below the canopy side rails is a good place to route wires.
This is easier if the rails are not riveted in place. You can modify the
small piece of "U" channel at the top of 604 to increase space for wires,
antennas and static line. I slit a piece of thin walled vynal tubing to
wrap around wires at that location and tie wrapped it to the wires. On the
other side, I used spiral wrap. I beleive someone at Van's told me it was
OK to cut a rectangular hole at the root end of the wing spar to pass wires
through. You would want to go either side of the center line (cut notch on
either right or left spar) as you would want to stay away from the elevator
control. I would not drill holes anywhere else in the spar or through the
fuselage bulkhead without checking with Van's first. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com> |
>Some folks say I ought to sick with the nosewheel because of the landing
>with a crosswind problem. Others have said that a competent tailwheel
>pilot can handle about the same amount of wind as a nosewheel plane.
>I'm not asking about the subjective merits of either the nose or the
>tailwheel. What I'd like to know is the practical/usefulness comments.
>Thanks in advance!
>Rod Woodard
>Loveland, Colorado
I suggest some time in a Citabria to answer your question. I would plan on
about 10 hours at a minimum. I learned in a taildragger and am thankful I
went through the process when I was 18. You will need instruction anyway when
your RV-8 is finished, so you might as well get it now. The added skill
learned will be well worthwhile, and you will most likely have a lot of fun in
the process.
The Citabria is a fun plane to fly, and you can keep your skills up while you
are building if you take it up every so often. You will be able to find a FBO
with one for rent with a little searching.
Best regards,
Steve Johnson
spjohnson(at)mmm.com
Waiting on the RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
>The hype out there about special piloting abilities being required to fly
>taildraggers is just that - hype. Probably propogated by taildragger pilots
>out there looking for a reason to puff up their chests and look down on
>someone else at the local aerodrome.
Ther may indeed be a lot of hype out there about the ability to fly a
taildragger. BUT, if you do learn the diciplines necessary to fly a
taildragger, you will be a much better pilot in the longrun. There was a very
good reason for putting the third wheel in the front of the aircraft, but too
many pilots rely on those facts to the point of becoming complacent of the
problems we are taught to handle in ALL types. The EXPERIENCE of take-offs
and landings in the unstable configuration of the taildragger will certainly
make you much more consious of the finer points when landing in any type.
Watch how most trike guys land. The ones with tail dragger time always use
full flair techniques, while those who don't usally do three pointers in a
trike.
Just my opinion......
>The important element here is TRAINING. You need to find a taildragger
>qualified CFI to give you a proper introduction to taildraggers and get his
>endorsement (this is now required by FAA). Piper Cub, Citabria, Aeronca,
>whatever - all are fine trainers for RV taildragger needs. Remember,
everyone
>in the old days soloed in Cubs and Champs or something similar - you can fly
>one, too!
I agree. Training is VERY important. Don't think that you are ready to fly
a taildragger just because you have a lot log hours in a trike. Taildraggers
are completely different animals on the ground.
But the FAA DOES NOT REQUIRE A CFI ENDORSEMENT to fly an EXPERIMENTAL
TAILDRAGGER. FAR 61.31h states that pilots of experimental certificated
aircraft are an exception to the endoresment rule (FAR 61.31h).
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (And yes, I have about 2000 Hrs in a "T"
Craft, but still built
a -6A)
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Instrument flight |
>> However, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I don't use the AI all that
>> heavily. In the old Cessna's my FBO has, wings-level is not always
>> exactly wings-level on the AI. Thus, I pretty much only use it during
>> transitional points. For instance, I use it to help roll out of a turn.
>> However, I tend to use the DG, altimeter and VSI much more heavily, and
>> I think the airspeed indicator gets about as much attention as the AI
>> does.
>
>I only have an hour in an RV-4, but I've got a lot of hours in actual
>and "under the hood" in training jets (former military QFI). From the
>way the RVs handle, I would guess that they are similar IFR platforms
>to training jets (T-37, Tutor, etc.). If that's true, I think you'll
>find yourself using the AI a lot more if you fly IFR in an RV than you
>do in a Cessna. When you first start doing IF in that kind of airplane,
>you really live by the AI. That's not to say that you can't do partial
>panel in them, but you wouldn't voluntarily do it if you had a
>functioning AI! Anyone out there with IFR time in RVs have comments
>on that?
I got my IFR rating in my -6A and currently have about 100Hrs of actual in
it. I have found the -6A to be quite easy to fly on partial panel, especially
when using a vertical card compass. the turn coordinator, with the exception
of responce time, is quite easy to use once you get the hang of it, and is
actually more sensitive than the AI. I find that I can fine tune my attitude
with the turn coordinator. All this requires training. I have spent, and
continue to proactice, partial panel operations. I feel comfortable flying
the RV under these conditions, and would not hesitate to do an approach if no
other reasonable possibilities existed.
While the RV's do not have the stability of a Bonanza, they can be flown
IFR if the pilot has kept his abilities fine tuned. The 6,6&6 rule, in my
opinion, does not meet this requirement.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
>Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of
nutplates
>on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar
to
>the front. There is the hole in the spar for the trim, since I am using
>electrics there. Do people put holes in the spar bulkhead, above the spar,
>and if so, how big can you go?
Yes, according to Van's, holes are allows in the spar bulhead (F-604)
above the spar. I didn't go above 1/2" in this area. Van's also stated to me
when I asked, that wire feed-through holes are allows in the spar, but ONLY
in the webbing areas and areas inside if the main gear attachment hardware on
the -6A. This puts then in the center areas like the trim cable hole.
Hope that helps.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: New Topic: Painting |
>
>Super idea!! We have kicked the primer thing around, now folks can give
their
>next step in the final coat, type of paint, and other subjects such as those
>you listed. Kick off a subject then when that has been hashed over, start
>another one. Easy to save things that way by subject. By acclamation, you
>are elected!!
>
>
On N925RV, I used the complete Dupont process: VaraPrime as the base coat,
and Duponts replacement for the toxicity problems of Emeron, CHROMA ONE.
CHROMA ONE is a four part Polyurathane paint that has about the same
durability of Emeron. I applied it with a $39.00 Pratco sprayer (essencially
a Dilvibis ripoff). I also used the Dupont sanding filler as the base coat
for the fiberglass parts. This eliminated the fiberglass weave pattern in the
top coat. Total cost for the paint job, minus labor, was $745.00. All paint
was purchased at a local auto paint retail outlet in Springfield Mass.
The colors are 1987 Ford Smoke White (Dove Grey), Halipino Red, and
ConnEdison Blue (Fleet color for an elctric company in New York City).
If anyone is interested in actual part numbers for the paint, let me know
and I'll look then up.
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator deflection |
>Elevator deflection is 30 up and 25 down as standard with minimum 25 up and
>20 down.
>My elevator control arm hits the bottom edge of rear HS spar at 23 degrees
>down. Is this the norm? No problem? The up elevator hits the HS skin at
about
>30, I think this is the norm, right?
I've never had to use the full 30 degrees up elevatpr, UNLESS I was duing
a spin or snap roll. In fact, I find that it is very easy to over rotate in
the flair to landing, and in the -6A, you can actually hit the tie down ring
on ht runway very easily, if you try to save a landing from a sudden dropout
while in the flair attitude. To solve this problem, I've placed an antenna on
the belly such that the bent end will strike the pavement before the tail
does. This results in an audible warning!
Hitting the tail tiedown ring will result in it being bent and/or torn
from the tail bulkhead. Removing the ring, or leaving it bent is also bad, as
the next over-rotation will result in damage to the rudder.
Since I don't do any serious arobatics, and no negative G's, the down
elevator angle of 25 degrees is an overkill. I can't remember a time in 650
Hrs of flying this aircraft where I hit the down endstop, or even came close
to it. Certainly use it taxing on windy days!
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
>I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair
>this weekend. One of the things that caught my eye was that the
>builder had wrapped all of the exhaust system, from the exhaust port
>down the stack to the bottom of the cowl including the cabin heat
>muff, with a heat wrap. He gave
>two reasons: 1) the tightly cowled Lancair needs all the heat
>protection it can get; and 2) maintaining the temperature of the
>exhaust gas in the pipe helps with horsepower. He says this is
>because exhaust gas slows as it cools, and that causes back pressure
>at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas to retain as much heat as
>possible until it hits the air under the airplane.
>
>Makes sense to me, but so does the flat tax so what do I know? Any
>of you engine types have comments?
>
>He says the wrap can be purchased from Spruce and he used it on his
>race cars. I asked if he was worried about not catching any cracks in the
>exhaust system because of the wrap. He's not but I think I would be.
>
>
>
What about detection of cracks AFTER the pipes are wraped, especially in
the area of the heat muffs?
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
wstucklen(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | NMARSHAL(at)auto.rockwell.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
I used Spruce's exhaust wrap on my tightly-cowled VW-engined Colibri=
=
single-seater, primarily because I was having problems of fuel =
vaporisation, caused by exhaust stack heat, which prevented hot =
starts. It reduced the under-cowling temperature significantly (>10=B0=
C) =
and also caused a small but noticeable reduction in engine noise. I =
can't say I noticed a power increase. I am not too worried about =
cracks; I think the discolored wrap would still be noticeable on =
inspection.
=
Nigel Marshall
Chevreuse, France
RV-4 (# 4062) Empennage
nmarshal(at)aopari.remnet.rockwell.com
=
______________________________ Reply Separator __________________________=
_______
Subject: RV-List: Exhaust Wrap
Date: 22/01/96 06:51
I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair =
this weekend. One of the things that caught my eye was that the =
builder had wrapped all of the exhaust system, from the exhaust port =
down the stack to the bottom of the cowl including the cabin heat =
muff, with a heat wrap. He gave =
two reasons: 1) the tightly cowled Lancair needs all the heat =
protection it can get; and 2) maintaining the temperature of the =
exhaust gas in the pipe helps with horsepower. He says this is =
because exhaust gas slows as it cools, and that causes back pressure =
at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas to retain as much heat as =
possible until it hits the air under the airplane.
=
Makes sense to me, but so does the flat tax so what do I know? Any =
of you engine types have comments?
=
He says the wrap can be purchased from Spruce and he used it on his =
race cars. I asked if he was worried about not catching any cracks in th=
e =
exhaust system because of the wrap. He's not but I think I would be.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
Wow! That was a close one. I thought we had another (dare I mention
the subject) tail wheel vs. nose wheel thing here.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
>
> Bob
> I stand corrected on the one piece wing skin. I did not mean to
> get nasty about the plastic airplanes, sorry.
>
> Bob Busick
> RV-6
> rbusick(at)nsmsu.edu
>
> > Just my opinion, if I wanted my RV
> > >to look like a plastic airplane, I would have bought a plastic airplane kit!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder |
>Rich asked:
>1. Are those using this device happy with it?
I really like the way the microEncoder operates. I have had one installed for
about 5 years.
>2. Are you using it for your primary VFR instruments, i.e., no analog backup?
I replaced the vertical speed indicator and the blind encoder with the
microEncoder, and left the altimeter
and airspeed indicator on the panel.
>3. Do you get raised eyebrows from the FAA inspectors if don't have analog
backups?
I wouldn't want to speak for the FAA. For myself, however, I found having the
airspeed indicator a very
useful non-electrical instrument to have today, until I isolated an in-flight
electrical problem on my RV-3.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 N47RV (9.8 hrs on elecric variable pitch prop. 0.2 hr to go to remove
restricted area limitation.)
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
We all srtay from time to time. I,m not afriad admit that I thought about
building a plastic plane at one time.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
> Sorry--mental impairment due to
> over-exposure to fiberglass (built Glasiar before present RV-6 :).
>
> Bob Skinner
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
intellinet.com!bfgibbons(at)matronics.com (B F Gibbons) writes:
>
>He says the wrap can be purchased from Spruce and he used it on his
>race cars. I asked if he was worried about not catching any cracks in the
>exhaust system because of the wrap. He's not but I think I would be.
>
>
I had it on mine briefly. Then I talked with a person with experience
welding aircraft exhaust pipes damaged as a result of the wrap. I am only
relaying information told me by this excellent welder/builder/pilot. I
believe there are several factor in play here. Any wires or band clamps used
to hold the wrap on the pipe will create hot spots underneath and can cause
holes to burn in the metal. The thickness of the metal in the pipe and the
material must be a factor here. I installed the tape wetting the tape as per
instructions, but in a couple places use SS band clamps. My exhaust was
Allan Tolles (light SS). I removed the tape after 10 hours use and noticed
dark spots (higher temps) under where the clamps were installed. I left it
off. BTW that exhaust system flew 300 hours with no failures. I am however
installing another which is made of heavier SS. The wrapping technique is
used in race cars, but I am sure they use thick pipes and can renew them
before every flight. Tony has a mention of wrapping in his "Engines" book.
Jim Stugart RV6/A
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | RV-6 Wing Kit for Sale |
My neighbor has gotten too busy and is selling out.
He has a 1-yr old (not-prepunched skins) wing kit which is untouched except
for doing the inventory. Price reduced to $2200. Also has a tail kit 95%
completed and would like to deal on it . Kit is located just north of Ft.
Worth, TX. Call Tom at 817-581-6352
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Curt Reimer asks:
> Question: How does one drill a replacement skin?
I'll bet if you made a splice plate you'd always be looking at
it and cringing....
I would think that if you flattened the dimples in the old skin they
would close up enough that accuracy wouldn't suffer and you could use
it as a template. You might want to try it with a scrap piece first
though just to make sure....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
>Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of nutplates
>on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar to
>the front. There is the hole in the spar for the trim, since I am using
>electrics there. Do people put holes in the spar bulkhead, above the spar,
>and if so, how big can you go?
>
>Bruce Patton,
>Fues out of jig, doing nutplates
>
Three builders in my area have cut a square out of the flange material
between the main structural pieces of the main wing spar where the two wings
meet and hav routed the electric through this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | RV6junkie(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator Deflection |
Join the club! All of the RV's at my field have this very same problem. Not
to be a smart @$$ but it only becomes a problem when you need 24 degrees of
travel. So far, I haven't heard of any RV's (loaded within CG) running out
of elevator on the landing flair, which is the only time you will NEED to
pull back on the stick that far.
As I have found with most things in RV land, don't stress over it, get over
it.
Gary Corde
RV6 N211GC
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
I first looked at the KR series. Interesting to see the different routes
folks took to arrive at the RV.
- Alan
Wannabe RV-6 builder.
House shopping begins in March.
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Chris Ruble wrote:
> We all srtay from time to time. I,m not afriad admit that I thought about
> building a plastic plane at one time.
>
> Chris
>
> > Sorry--mental impairment due to
> > over-exposure to fiberglass (built Glasiar before present RV-6 :).
> >
> > Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
*** snip ***
>>
>>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>>very tight fit in the existing holes.
*** snip ***
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Curt Reimer
>>
>
>Just a thought; check with a model airplane/whatever store and see if there
>is a brass tubing that will fit inside the hole after the ribs have been
>dimpled. If you can find such a tube place a drill bit inside the tube and
>drill a 'pilot' hole in the new skin. The new hole in the skin will be much
>smaller than a #41 bit but can then be drilled out to size.
*** snip ***
>In any case, no need to splice the skin on the trailing edge.
>
>John Ammeter
Curt,
Instead of using/making a bushing, or hammering the dimples flat,
why not just use a transfer punch that is the right size for the 'oversize'
dimpled holes? You could even drill out all of the dimpled holes slightly
to get to a uniform size. I would guess a #36 or #37 punch would be OK,
but use a drill bit to measure the size of your existing holes.
Since you are dealing with essentially flat skins, it should be
easy enough to clamp the old skin (dimples up), new skin (left slightly
oversize if possible, and trimmed later) onto a stiff board and just use
the transfer punch to make neat center punch marks for your new #41 holes.
As long as you keep the transfer punch reasonably square to the work, your
accuracy will be fine.
Transfer punches can be obtained from US Industrial or ATS in all
letter and number drill sizes. The cost for the size range you need are
only $1.50 each.
A note on ATS: I too have bought bad tools from them, but I find
them a good supplier for drill bits and items such as these transfer
punches, and they seem to always have a good stock in hand. In fact, I
actually prefer to use their HSS split-point drills over the carbide ones
sold by the preferred RV tool suppliers for alum. drilling. I take a 6
inch drill and shorten it to about 4 inches to allow for easy drilling in
between installed clecoes. With this length, it's also easier to judge
squareness to the work.
... good luck .... Gil Alexander
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
RV6A, #20701 .... still slowly trimming plexiglas ....
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
> >The important element here is TRAINING. You need to find a taildragger
> >qualified CFI to give you a proper introduction to taildraggers and
> >get his endorsement (this is now required by FAA).
> What FAR?
Sec. 61.31 (g)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
Tom, received my #4 S/S machine screws today, and a nice cataloge. Here's
the PH #603-926-8881. FAX 603-926-7855. DD Aircraft Supply, 4 Stickney
Terr., PO Box 1200, Hampton, NH 03842
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov> |
REGARDING Exhaust Wrap
Every single manufacturer of automotive headers VOIDS their warranty if the
pipes have been wrapped! Of course, these are usually not ss but mild steel.
Regardless of material - wrapping destroys the life of the part compared to a
unwrapped part for two reason:
(1) The wrap retains so much heat in the tube that it leads to cokeing of the
microstructure. The hot tube will crack along grain lines much sooner.
(2) Since asbestos has been eliminated most of the heat tapes have a high
content of zirconia or other ceramics. Putting this ceramic material (or who
knows what other nasty stuff) next to a hot carbon steel (or ss) tube may
cause a chemical reaction or a change in material properties of the tube. I
don't know of any research on this but after viewing unwrapped tubes - it is
obvious there is some strange effect taking place.
But the best evidence is the (automotive) header manufactures. If you wrap
your headers their warranties are void! And that is because a wrapped tube
cannot make it to its warranted life - and believe me, you can tell if they
have been wrapped.
An exhausting subject,
Elon
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard E Steffens" <resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com> |
I'm ready to order the finish kit for my -6 and have a couple of
questions about the options I might need. First, anybody have
experience with the split (two-piece) wheel pants. I want to be able
to land on grass, but would also like to easily get to the wheels.
What's the nature of the trade-off?
Any other advice on what to order with the finish kit.
I will have a tip-up canopy and an HIO-360-B1A engine. I will be
getting a sump with the injection servo either in the front or the
bottom. If the servo is in the front, I could run the intake air
directly to it from just under the prop (thru a filter) like I think I
saw in the RV-8, but that would mean the crossover exhaust would have
to be rerouted. Any experience there? Ah, the joys of building.
Dick Steffens
RV-6 in North Carolina
resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | joehine(at)mi.net (joehine) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
>Well, its goof-up time again. I accidentally trimmed my top outer wing
>skin on my 2nd wing flush with the rear spar (like the bottom skin is
>trimmed). I was obviously thinking "Hey, I've already built one wing -
>who needs to look at instructions?" Sigh.
>
>So, I've made a doubler plate to reattach the cut-off part of the
>trailing edge of the skin, but now I'm leaning towards just replacing the
>darn thing.
>
>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
>will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
>once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
>the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
>skin?
>
>Thanks,
>Curt Reimer
>
>
Curt if its any consolation you are not the only one who has made this
mistake. I did the same thing on my 4 about 3 years ago, fortunately I did
it before I had drilled the holes and simply replaced the skin.
I think if you just hammered flat the dimples in the old skin and used it as
a template it would work fine.
Hang in there.
Joe Hine
joehine(at)mi.net
506-452-1072 Home
506-452-3495 Work
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "E. Amadio" <e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com> |
| Subject: | Installing Fuel Pump |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BAE8FA.50F34C20
AL: try putting a glob of bearing grease in the cavity and then shoving =
the finger up into it.The grease should hold it up long enough for you =
to instal the fuel pump without problems.
=20
The grease will be washed away by the engine oil when it starts and will =
do no harm.
It's worked for me any time I've needed a disappearing third hand.
Good Luck : Ernie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Text item:
FROM EXPERIENCE, AS FOLLOWS:
TAKE THE NEW SKIN, LAY IT ON IT'S TOP, BOTTOM SIDE UP. LAY OLD SKIN ON NEW
SKIN, ALIGN. THE OLD SKIN TOP IS NOW NEXT TO THE NEW SKIN BOTTOM. IF ALREADY
DIMPLED THE DIMPLES WOULD BE STICKING UP LIKE LITTLE MOUNTAINS. USE THE CRATER
OF THE LITTLE MOUNTAINS AS DRILL GUIDES. WORKED GREAT FOR ME. BY THE WAY, I
REALLY LIKE THE TWO PIECE SKINS. IF THE SEAM IS DONE WELL IT SHOWS OFF YOUR
WORKMANSHIP ABILITY.
Curt Reimer asks:
> Question: How does one drill a replacement skin?
I'll bet if you made a splice plate you'd always be looking at
it and cringing....
I would think that if you flattened the dimples in the old skin they
would close up enough that accuracy wouldn't suffer and you could use
it as a template. You might want to try it with a scrap piece first
though just to make sure....
Randall Henderson
RV-6
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: RV-List: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin
From: edt.com!randall(at)matronics.com (Randall Henderson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:16:55 -0800
tel.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA02659 for <Gary_Standley_at_hfccm4@ccm.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rust47rg(at)one.net |
> I'm ready to order the finish kit for my -6 and have a couple of
> questions about the options I might need. First, anybody have
> experience with the split (two-piece) wheel pants. I want to be able
> to land on grass, but would also like to easily get to the wheels.
> What's the nature of the trade-off?
>
> Any other advice on what to order with the finish kit.
>
> I will have a tip-up canopy and an HIO-360-B1A engine. I will be
> getting a sump with the injection servo either in the front or the
> bottom. If the servo is in the front, I could run the intake air
> directly to it from just under the prop (thru a filter) like I think I
> saw in the RV-8, but that would mean the crossover exhaust would have
> to be rerouted. Any experience there? Ah, the joys of building.
>
> Dick Steffens
> RV-6 in North Carolina
> resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com
>
Dick:
I ordered 2 piece wheel pants when I built my 4. After I got them I ordered
the standard pants. I didn't think there was any way they would last on grass
unless the grass was smooth as silk. I like the looks of the one piece
better anyway. I have no problem getting them on and off.
The guys running 2 piece pants tell me they add speed but I don't think they
are worth the hassel if you frequent soft strips. You don't go fast when
you're in the hanger fixing them all the time.
As far as the exhaust conflict.... why don't you put a 4 pipe system on and
you won't have the problem with the crossover.
Regards:
Rusty Gossard
N47RG RV-4 Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: 'cheater rivets' |
Am I missing something here. What good is it to pre-squeeze a rivet??
It will take the shape of the hole when you rivet it any way so why
pre-squeze it? The only reason I would see if if you start with a
rivet a little longer than normal (too help fill a over size hole)
then it may want to bend if you hit it with the rivet gun.
Presqueezing may keep it from bending over. Is this the reason?
If its too big you may as well go to the cheater rivet (1/8 shank
with 3/32 head size.
Herman
>
> > I would be inclined to use a drill bit that is slightly larger (Probably
> > about #39) and gives good hole centering. Then use rivets a 1/2 size longer
> > and count on them filling the hole as they are driven. You would probably
> > topple a few of them during driving but I would guess not too many. Have a
> > try on some scrap first to see how it goes.
>
> An EAA tech counsellor showed me a neat trick on this. You can make
> your own cheater rivets by gently squeezing them in a hand squeezer
> before driving them with the gun. They can be fatten'ed up this way
> to fit a #39, #38 etc. This would be somewhat tedious for a whole
> wing skin though...
>
> --
> Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
> voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
> fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
> email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data |
Bob, liked your airplane data message, answered a lot of ? for me.
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer) |
| Subject: | Couple of Wing Questions |
Does anyone know why the fuel tank construction on a 6/6A calls for
countersinking one row of #3 rivets on the top and bottom of the tank that
attaches the tank skin to the rear tank baffle.
Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
Chet Razer
crazer(at)midwest.net
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "E. Amadio" <e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com> |
| Subject: | Enough primer already! |
Folks, I own a 1953 Cessna 170-B with 2700 hours on it and 43 years =
behind it. This bird has not been pampered or abused.
In 1992 we completed a 1000 hr inspection. The results?
As far as the interior condition of the bare ,unprimed, uncoated =
aluminum there was no corosion in the fuselage.
The wings showed a very minor discolouring of the surfaces with no =
pitting.
My opinion?
By the time I finish my RV-6 I'll be 47 years old.Should I be fortunate =
to still be flying at 90 with this same aircraft I may have to consider =
some form of internal corosion treatment.If so I'm quite certain that by =
the year 2040 an extremely light,low cost,easy to apply treatment will =
have been developed. If not I guess I'll just fly it untill either I or =
the bird call it quits.
Ernie
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen ) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
You wrote
>If you _really_ want to make work for yourself you could drill the
>skins and ribs out to 1/8". This would entail redimpling but, if you>
>use the rivets with the smaller heads, no one will be the wiser.
>
>In any case, no need to splice the skin on the trailing edge.
>
>John Ammeter
>ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
>Seattle WA, USA
>RV-6 N16JA
>Flying 5 years
I've just an old RV-3 kit (#488 begin in '78/'79). Skin has been cut
too short several places and I'm planning on drilling out the rivets an
putting on new skins where needed. I'm real concerned about these 1/8"
rivets with smaller heads. Are you _sure_ they provide the same
structual strenght as the rivets with "standard" (countersunk) heads.
Van does not recommend countersinking material under a certain
thickness because it reduces the area under the head of the rivet. So,
along the same line of reasoning - you'll be getting a smaller area of
material under rivets with sub-standard heads.
Finn Lassen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | amsteve(at)limestone.kosone.com (a stevenson) |
| Subject: | Installing Fuel Pump |
>AL: try putting a glob of bearing grease in the cavity and then shoving the
finger up into it.The grease should hold it up long enough for you to instal
the fuel pump without problems.
>
>The grease will be washed away by the engine oil when it starts and will do
no harm.
>
>
>It's worked for me any time I've needed a disappearing third hand.
>
>Good Luck : Ernie
>
>Attachment Converted: C:\KOS\RERV-Li4
>
I tried it. It worked. Many thanks for taking the time... Al
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen ) |
Hi!
After butting in now and then, I think I better introduce myself.
After thinking about building an airplane for years, I finally got
serious about it December last year. After getting a ride in Tracy
Crooks' RV-4 I was sold on the RV. In an attempt to fit it into my
budget, I looked around for an RV-4 kit someone had decided not to
build after all. I didn't find any but found an RV-3 kit which I just
got hauled home last Saturday. It was originally started by Charlie
Dorris of Richardson, TX sometime in '78 (or '77). Kit #488 ! Anybody
know him? He then sold it to Scott Tubbs, who never really got started
on it.
Unfortunately the forward skins are too short - do not extend out over
the firewall flange. Also the wing skins to not extend out far enough
to rivet the wingtips onto them. There are no wing tanks either. Thus
I'm tempted to take the wing skins off and start anew. Any suggestions
on how to proceed are welcome. I'm sure the next month or more will be
spent on studying the plans, cleaning up the different pieces and
inventoring what I do have and what's missing.
I'm planning on installing the Mazda 13B, like Tracy Crooks. I'm also
looking into the possibility of a "glass" cockpit (instrumentation) to
keep the prices down on avionics.
I'll probably be posting a lot of stupid questions as I proceed, so I
hope there's still someone out there with patience who's built an RV-3.
Finn Lassen
Clearwater, FL
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JamesCone(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
I used the exhaust wrap sold by Spruce on a stainless steel system. It
crystalized and crumbled off in about thirty hours. I also had some hot
spots on the pipes where I used stainless steel wire to secure the wrap.
Spruce told me "Tough Luck!" when I asked about a guarantee. I then found
out that the exact same wrap can be purchased at any speed shop for half of
what I paid at Spruce. I don't buy anything from Spruce unless I can't find
it anywhere else. Don't plan to use wrap on my -6 when complete because of
the problems that I had.
Jim Cone
jamescone(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RMI microEncoder ?? |
The RMI microEncoder is an electronic instrument that combines a digital
airspeed indicator, digital altimeter, vertical velocity indicator,and Mode C
altitude encoder. It has various display and warning options that may be
programmed into it. It use a LCD display with backlighting for night use.
The microMonitor is an electronic engine instrument that combines 10 engine
parameters (manifold pressure, RPM, oil pressure & temp, EGT, CHT, fuel
pressure, fuel flow, voltage, carb temp), a fuel totalizer (not a fuel
gauge!), timer, OAT, and other programmable options, again with warning
annunciation. Also LCD display.
These are not as visually impressive as the MicroVision stuff, but the price
is right! The kits go for about $800 and $1000 respectively, an extra $300
each for factory assembly. The April 1991 issue of Sport Aviation, pg 72, has
an article about RMI instrument construction and installation in a LongEze.
RMI ad on page 127 of the Jan 96 Sport Aviation lists the address and number
as:
RMI
P.O. Box 683
Thermopolis, WY 82443
(307) 864-9300
Mike Kukulski
RV-4 Fuselage Innards
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
>You wrote
>>If you _really_ want to make work for yourself you could drill the
>>skins and ribs out to 1/8". This would entail redimpling but, if you>
>>use the rivets with the smaller heads, no one will be the wiser.
>>
>>In any case, no need to splice the skin on the trailing edge.
>>
>>John Ammeter
>>ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
>>Seattle WA, USA
>>RV-6 N16JA
>>Flying 5 years
>
>I've just an old RV-3 kit (#488 begin in '78/'79). Skin has been cut
>too short several places and I'm planning on drilling out the rivets an
>putting on new skins where needed. I'm real concerned about these 1/8"
>rivets with smaller heads. Are you _sure_ they provide the same
>structual strenght as the rivets with "standard" (countersunk) heads.
>Van does not recommend countersinking material under a certain
>thickness because it reduces the area under the head of the rivet. So,
>along the same line of reasoning - you'll be getting a smaller area of
>material under rivets with sub-standard heads.
>
>Finn Lassen
>
>
You make a good point. I hadn't thought about the decreased size of the
head. As far as shear strength they should be much stronger but in tension
they would not have the same size factory head at least in regards to the
area bearing on the skin. Maybe the best course would be to use the 1/8"
rivets with the standard heads. The heads would be larger than the 3/32"
rivets but would certainly be strong enough.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
>I used the exhaust wrap sold by Spruce on a stainless steel system. It
>crystalized and crumbled off in about thirty hours. I also had some hot
>spots on the pipes where I used stainless steel wire to secure the wrap.
> Spruce told me "Tough Luck!" when I asked about a guarantee. I then found
>out that the exact same wrap can be purchased at any speed shop for half of
>what I paid at Spruce. I don't buy anything from Spruce unless I can't find
>it anywhere else. Don't plan to use wrap on my -6 when complete because of
>the problems that I had.
>
>Jim Cone
>jamescone(at)aol.com
>
I'll second Jim's comment about not buying from Spruce unless not available
anywhere else. When I was building my -6 I'd order 5 or 6 items at a time
from them; even when I asked them to not ship until everything was available
they'd still ship a $4.00 part and charge me $3.00 for shipping. Also, I
ordered a throttle cable from them and it arrived damaged. I called them,
was told to call the shipper and have them pick it up for return to them. I
did as they asked, they shipped a replacement cable; charging me for the
replacement. They never credited my account for the damaged cable. To this
day they still owe me about $50.00. I will not buy anything from them
unless they are the only supplier and even then I'll try to do without the
item. Wicks and Wag Aero are more cooperative, friendlier and not so damn
arrogant. Buy from them and Avery and you'll never be sorry.
John Ammeter
ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com
Seattle WA, USA
RV-6 N16JA
Flying 5 years
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
You wrote:
>The important element here is TRAINING. You need to find a taildragger
>qualified CFI to give you a proper introduction to taildraggers and
>get his endorsement (this is now required by FAA).
What FAR?
You got me. Sorry, I'm not a FAR weenie. I do know it's covered by FAR
because this very subject was covered in the IAC e-mail list just recently.
Bottom line of that thread was: a CFI endorsement is required for new
taildragger pilots, to include both three-point and wheel landings (if the
aircraft is not prohibited from one or the other)
Mike Kukulski
RV-4 Fuselage Innards
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data |
Here is a blank form for entering RV data for flying RV's. Please add
anything about your airplane that I may have left out. Hopefully, this will
transmit OK and be easy to use. I hope we get some good information that we
can all use.
Don't forget to delete this paragraph before re-transmitting. Thanks,
Bob Skinner RV-6
MODEL:
DATE FINISHED:
TOTAL TIME:
ENGINE:
PROP:
CANOPY:
STARTER:
ALTERNATOR:
VOLT. REG.:
BATTERY:
EXHAUST:
ELEVATOR TRIM:
FLAPS:
BRAKES: TIRE PRESSURE:
PANEL:
LIGHTING:
PAINT:
INTERIOR:
INSURANCE:
OTHER (MISC):
PROBLEMS:
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | New Topic: Painting- long |
I have some input for the paint thread, so here goes:
I painted my -4 with a different DuPont system- Chroma Base & Chroma-clear
over Velva-seal, over thin Vari-prime, with 131S sprayed & sanded over the
top rivet lines. Turned out v nice, but small repairs are not down to my
skill level. Bob Siebert's -6 is the same color in acrylic enamel, and is
just as shiny, IMHO. Both birds were wet sanded & buffed with DuPont (I
forget the name- some white stuff that gets everywhere). I don't have a
weight for either paint job- guessing 30-35 lbs.
That Chroma-base sure goes on easy- JUST like vari-prime. The clear is a
different story. It's pretty easy to "read", tho.HVLP will NOT apply the
clear, but is great for the color.
I think I'll use enamel over AZKO primer on the Rocket, probably some time in
Feb. I'll shoot 131S over the rivet lines over the primer, as this makes them
look so good- not hidden, just "finished". This paint job may be a bit
lighter, as I won't have Velva-seal on the bird, and that AZKO is v thin,
when done right. Repairs may be easier, too. I haven't primed much inside,
but I did alodine all non-alclad pieces. Main spars got a coat of epoxy
primer on the non-alclad parts, alodine webs. I'll pobably use LPS or ACF-50
or equiv. inside the wings & fuse, after painting. IMHO, the steel parts are
the most corrosion prone- I've powder coated as much as I could. Boiled
linseed oil was dribbled in areas where I didn't think the coating was good
enough (the ends of the torque tube where the stick pivot ears are welded on,
for example) and some was put inside the aileron pushtubes- the steel ones-
before the ends are welded on.
Hope this helps!
Rgds,
Mark
mlfred(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM> |
A while ago the topic of labelling a panel came up, along with the idea of
using a silk screen to do it. Well, for a different project, I went to the
art store to get a silk screening kit (About $42) (They can be used to make
T-shirts, you know), and there's some fascinating reading in the instruction/
supplies pamphlets.
For one thing, you don't need UV to expose the photoreactive screens, a
regular 150 watt bulb with a pie-tin reflector will do it.
But the really interesting thing was in the catalog. You can get four
different colors of phosphorescent printing ink. Yup, you can silk screen
your panel and have it glow in the dark. (Okay, it's meant for fabric, but
still....)
--
If your software uses anything other than a > to quote, it is broken.
What part of "...shall not be infringed." don't you understand?
"Ride a motorcycle. Save Gas, Oil, Rubber, Steel, Aluminum, Parking Spaces,
The Environment, and Money. Plus, you get to wear all the leather you want!"
-- Rich Chandler, DoD #296
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
> Also the wing skins to not extend out far enough
>to rivet the wingtips onto them.
thats a easy fix, take some angle say 032" 5/8x5/8 and rivet it to the end
ribs fluteing as necessary (or notching) the leg rivetted to the rib to
follow the shape of the rib, allowing for the thickness of the wing tip, trim
the wing tip to fit against the wing over the top of the angle, put nut
plates on the angle and use #6 screws with reinforcement washers through the
wing tip, screw wing tip on to angle.
Jerry Springer RV-6 First flight July 14, 1989 :=)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
>> Here is a new topic. I am doing a -6A, completing the thousands of
>nutplates
>> on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar
>to
>> the front.
>
>I'm not quite that far along yet, but the way I've seen it done that I
>liked is to run your wires along the sides of the fuselage under the
>armrests. With a little joggle, you can then run wires clear back to the
>tail by securing them to the J-channels.
>
>
It is also ok to make a hole large enough where two wing spars butt together
to run your wireing I checked with Art chard at Van's when I had this
question. As the -4 builders know they have a pretty good sized hole in this
area for the controls.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
>Curt, If you decide to go with a new skin, you can use the old one as a
>template. In order to be as accurate as possible you might get your flat
>sets out and take the dimples out of the skin. then mark and drill the new
>skin. After the new skin is dimpled and the holes enlarged (as they do
>when dimpled) I think you'll find your rivet hole alignment will be better
>than you expected.
>
>
Another way to do this if you do not have your bottom skin rivetted on is to
get a few holes started along the spar to hold the skin in place and then
have someone hold a block of wood against the outside of the skin and put in
clecos while you back drill through the ribs with a long drill bit. I think
you will find that even if the ribs are dimpled you will still get a good
fit.
Jerry Springer RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions |
>Does anyone know why the fuel tank construction on a 6/6A calls for
>countersinking one row of #3 rivets on the top and bottom of the tank that
>attaches the tank skin to the rear tank baffle.
>
> Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
>edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
>the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
>in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
Chet
You will probably get lots of help with this but here is my answer, the one
row of rivets is countersunk so your tanks will slide on and off better if
you dimple it tends to lock them in place.
As for the aileron gap I can tell you from experience that if you make the
gap to tight you will have very stiff aileron control at higher speeds my
ailerons are very stiff at around 170mph because there is no air flowing over
the aileron if you look at a aileron say in a left turn from the bottom you
the forward edge of the aileron is below the wing some of that air need to go
over the top through the gap. I made mine as tight as I could, wish I hadn't.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au> |
| Subject: | Flap trailing edge |
A few builders of RV6's here in OZ have had problems with the flaps. They
all followed the Frank S manual and George & Becki's video advice about the
jig, but all the flaps came out with a bow of about 1/6" to 3/32" near the
centre of the trailing edge (no twist luckily).
I first thought that the cause might be, as expressed in the RVator, about
the pop-rivets applying distorting pressure to the already riveted spar, but
all the builders did the pop-riveting before riveting to the top and bottom
skin.
Has anyone else had this problem? Any ideas of what might have caused it
and any solutions would be gratefully received. Has anyone any idea of what
the effect might be in flight (There are a few very woried people here.) I
am yet to rivet the spars in to my flaps and they are straight so far. I'll
wait for an answer from the older and wiser folk before continuing.
One other question, does anyone know what the effect of aging (past the use
by date) of ProSeal?
Royce Craven
Australia
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello ) |
| Subject: | Priming HS control horns |
Hi Folks,
OK, I have gotten totally paranoid (rightfully so?) after reading the
list. In my ignorance, I just cleaned the control horns and primed
them with 2 coats of Variprime, sanding between them. I made an effort
to spray down the curved portion, but nothing heroic.
Now, from reading the list, it looks like I have left the horn very
susceptable to the dreaded rust and corrosion. One elevator is done
and the other horn (also painted) is sitting loose. Can I get some
advice on what best to do to make it so that I will minimize the onset
of corrosion? (And if the answer is scrap the elevator and build a new
one, getting two new horns, PLEASE break it to me gently!!!)
Thanks, guys.
Bill
--
___ _______________________
\ \ _ _ / /
\ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \
X-*#####*******......./ Chicago /
o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \
\__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com /
\______________________\
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Crothers <rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com> |
| Subject: | Interesting Info. |
As a wanna be that is tooling up for a project I really appreciate hearing
about decisions others have made regarding all the options available and
reasons, results etc.. I especially like to get details about how various
options have affected performance. Is the electric trim a little too
sensitive, if you did it over would you install it again? This type of
information is quite valuable to help others make a decision on what may
work best for them. Of course alot of this will come down to opinions but
there still good reading material and informative too. I hope you rv-listers
that having flying airplane will share more of this type of information.
Thanks!
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Crothers <rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com> |
| Subject: | Nose or Tail drag. |
I have been planning to build a -6 even though most of my 600 or so hours
has been in nose draggers. I did check out in a Champ once and flew it for
awhile. I lean toward the tail dragger -6 because of better rough field
capability, prop clearence, looks, and maybe a touch of macho. I can let go
of the macho reason. I have noticed a few builders have completed and flown
a -6 and now are building a -6A, this makes me wonder about the other
reasons. Are you building a -6A because of possible resale value or flying
experience with the -6? Which one would you sell?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
>OK, I have gotten totally paranoid (rightfully so?) after reading the
>list. In my ignorance, I just cleaned the control horns and primed
>them with 2 coats of Variprime, sanding between them. I made an effort
>to spray down the curved portion, but nothing heroic.
Quit worrying,PICK A PRIMER AND USE IT, Variprime will las longer than yo do.
Jerry Springer flying a variprimed RV-6 going on 8 years.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
Finn,
I would probably make doublers for the wingtips instead of replacing
the entire skin. Once you've attached the fiberglass wing tips the
doubler could be hidded to my satisfaction with about 1 hour of bondo
work.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Finn Lassen wrote:
> Hi!
> After butting in now and then, I think I better introduce myself.
> After thinking about building an airplane for years, I finally got
> serious about it December last year. After getting a ride in Tracy
> Crooks' RV-4 I was sold on the RV. In an attempt to fit it into my
> budget, I looked around for an RV-4 kit someone had decided not to
> build after all. I didn't find any but found an RV-3 kit which I just
> got hauled home last Saturday. It was originally started by Charlie
> Dorris of Richardson, TX sometime in '78 (or '77). Kit #488 ! Anybody
> know him? He then sold it to Scott Tubbs, who never really got started
> on it.
> Unfortunately the forward skins are too short - do not extend out over
> the firewall flange. Also the wing skins to not extend out far enough
> to rivet the wingtips onto them. There are no wing tanks either. Thus
> I'm tempted to take the wing skins off and start anew. Any suggestions
> on how to proceed are welcome. I'm sure the next month or more will be
> spent on studying the plans, cleaning up the different pieces and
> inventoring what I do have and what's missing.
>
> I'm planning on installing the Mazda 13B, like Tracy Crooks. I'm also
> looking into the possibility of a "glass" cockpit (instrumentation) to
> keep the prices down on avionics.
>
> I'll probably be posting a lot of stupid questions as I proceed, so I
> hope there's still someone out there with patience who's built an RV-3.
>
> Finn Lassen
> Clearwater, FL
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Tony's "Engines" |
(Randy Crothers) writes:
> Tony has a mention of wrapping in his "Engines" book.
>>
>>Jim Stugart RV6/A
>>DerFlieger(at)aol.com
>NEW: Jim, I am trying to gather such books and don't have Tony's "Engines"
>book. Do you recommend it and can you tell me how to get a copy? Thanks in
>advance. I chose not to broadcast this request to everyone but others may be
>interested in your resonse.
>
>
All 4 of Tony's books should be in every homebuilder's library. He has
donated all 4 (the 4th is on engines) to the National EAA so you would be
helping them (us) when you buy them. They are the results of YEARS of his
experiences and research and I suspect would be of great value even to newly
licensed A&Ps. You may order them from the EAA at 1/800 843-3612. Price
today I am told is 21.95 each or 75.90 for all four.
Jim Stugart, Austin TX RV6/A
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
(William Costello) writes:
>
>OK, I have gotten totally paranoid (rightfully so?) after reading the
>list. In my ignorance, I just cleaned the control horns and primed
>them with 2 coats of Variprime, sanding between them. I made an effort
>to spray down the curved portion, but nothing heroic.
>
>Now, from reading the list, it looks like I have left the horn very
>susceptable to the dreaded rust and corrosion. One elevator is done
>and the other horn (also painted) is sitting loose. Can I get some
>advice on what best to do to make it so that I will minimize the onset
>of corrosion? (And if the answer is scrap the elevator and build a new
>one, getting two new horns, PLEASE break it to me gently!!!)
>
>Thanks, guys.
>
>Bill
Bill, as you have been reading, primining your steel parts just slows down
the rusting action. You should put some kind of glossy finish topcoat on the
primer before any rusting can begin. Anything from Rustoleum to epoxy will
help however the high end topcoats are the best. Of course there are many
options as you have been reading, some even using epoxy primer. At this point
in time I like Imron on top of Variprime for my steel parts which are subject
to abuse, e.g. the weldments that hold the main gear legs on the 6A. It will
never rust and is very resistant to abrasion. But thats just me and I might
change my mind when convinced otherwise. I have used cheap spray can enamel
with good results too.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
RVer's: I forgot some important stuff on the form: Empty weight, Rate of
climb, cruise speed. I would propose that the cruise figures be given for
full throttle operation at 7,500 feet at full throttle, calibrated true
airspeed (not indicated) If the form transmitted OK, you could insert these
items.
Speaking of true, calibrated airspeed. In the Feb. 95 issue of Kitplanes,
page 49 there was an article on arriving at true, calibrated airspeed using
Loran or GPS. It involved flying three different headings, 90 degrees
apart. Simply establish a heading and stabilize and log (I used GPS) ground
speed. Turn 90 degrees & stabilize & log ground speed and turn another 90
degrees and do the same. The article gave a formula to plug the three
recorded groundspeeds into and then computed the true, calibrated ground
speed. I plugged the formula into a spreadsheet to make computing faster.
This formula cancel outs the effects of any winds aloft. If you don't have
this issue and are interested in the formula, let me know and I will post
later. Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions |
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Chester Razer wrote:
> Does anyone know why the fuel tank construction on a 6/6A calls for
> countersinking one row of #3 rivets on the top and bottom of the tank that
> attaches the tank skin to the rear tank baffle.
The rivets end up to be VERY close to the 'web' of the tank baffle. Too
close to get a dimple die in there. I also think you get a better seal
between the skin and the baffle with machine-countersunk holes instead of
dimples.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap trailing edge |
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Royce Craven wrote:
> A few builders of RV6's here in OZ have had problems with the flaps. They
> all followed the Frank S manual and George & Becki's video advice about the
> jig, but all the flaps came out with a bow of about 1/6" to 3/32" near the
> centre of the trailing edge (no twist luckily).
The same thing happened to me. First, IMHO, a bow that small is going to
have no affect whatsoever, as long as there is no twist. The only thing
I can think of that might be the cause is that it might have something to
do with the fact that the rivets on the inner ribs are bucked while the
rivets in the end ribs are squeezed?
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, William Costello wrote:
> OK, I have gotten totally paranoid (rightfully so?) after reading the
> list. In my ignorance, I just cleaned the control horns and primed
> them with 2 coats of Variprime, sanding between them. I made an effort
> to spray down the curved portion, but nothing heroic.
You'll be just fine. My elevators (complete with veriprimed control
horns) have been hanging on my garage wall for over a year and they look
just fine.
If you wanted to, you could buy a spray can of some kind of inexpensive
enamil and spray-paint those areas now. That will provide a better
moisture barrier. A few years from now, when you are ready to do the
actual painting, you can use a stripper to remove the spary paint.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Single piece top skin |
This is starting to sound like a "PA" (Plastics Anonymous) meeting.
"Hi, my name is Jonh Doe, and I'm a plastaholic..." The 12 steps to
recovery you ask? Step one- Order RV plans, Step 2- Convince your wife
you _need_ all of those tools...
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
>
> I first looked at the KR series. Interesting to see the different routes
> folks took to arrive at the RV.
>
> - Alan
>
> Wannabe RV-6 builder.
> House shopping begins in March.
>
>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Chris Ruble wrote:
>
> > We all srtay from time to time. I,m not afriad admit that I thought about
> > building a plastic plane at one time.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > Sorry--mental impairment due to
> > > over-exposure to fiberglass (built Glasiar before present RV-6 :).
> > >
> > > Bob Skinner
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
>B.F.,
>
>I purchased the BAC lighting kits and am very happy with them. They come with
>very easy instructions and the pieces are anodized black and fit perfectly in
>the outside LE. I also got a chance to look at the duck works plans and
>lights though not installed - another builder here is installing them. I
>don't think you could go wrong with either. I like the Barnard light fixture
>better-regular GE aviation lights. I also like the small opening(lense
>cover).
>
>Shelby in Nasvhille
>
Would you give us the address & phone of BAC, also the price for each light kit?
Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data |
>> Here is a blank form for entering RV data for flying RV's. Please add
anything about your airplane that I may have left out. <<
This is a *really* great idea, and thanks for posting the info on your airplane.
For those of us (i.e. me ) struggling with weight considerations for
selection of prop/engine/etc., how about:
EMPTY WEIGHT _________
and really stretching it:
EMPTY CG _________
Regards,
Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
> I didn't find any but found an RV-3 kit which I just
>got hauled home last Saturday. It was originally started by Charlie
>Dorris of Richardson, TX sometime in '78 (or '77). Kit #488 ! Anybody
>know him? He then sold it to Scott Tubbs, who never really got started
>on it.
>Unfortunately the forward skins are too short - do not extend out over
>the firewall flange. Also the wing skins to not extend out far enough
>to rivet the wingtips onto them. There are no wing tanks either. Thus
>I'm tempted to take the wing skins off and start anew. Any suggestions
>on how to proceed are welcome. I'm sure the next month or more will be
>spent on studying the plans, cleaning up the different pieces and
>inventoring what I do have and what's missing.
>Finn Lassen
>Clearwater, FL
>
Finn: Sounds like the fuselage and wings are riveted. The RV-3
(originally, at least) called for a fuselage tank. Before drilling a bunch
of skins off, I would get an experienced builder to look at the project.
Ask around, you want someone who is a "quality builder" to look at the
airplane. There is a fix for the short wing skins that has been addressed
on this forum recently. I'm sure most bulders would agree, they would
rather build a new airplane that drill off a bunch of skins. You need
someone to really check out everything on the plane before you go any
farther. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
>Hi Folks,
>
>OK, I have gotten totally paranoid (rightfully so?) after reading the
>list. In my ignorance, I just cleaned the control horns and primed
>them with 2 coats of Variprime, sanding between them. I made an effort
>to spray down the curved portion, but nothing heroic.
>
>Now, from reading the list, it looks like I have left the horn very
>susceptable to the dreaded rust and corrosion. One elevator is done
>and the other horn (also painted) is sitting loose. Can I get some
>advice on what best to do to make it so that I will minimize the onset
>of corrosion? (And if the answer is scrap the elevator and build a new
>one, getting two new horns, PLEASE break it to me gently!!!)
>
>Thanks, guys.
>
>Bill
>
Bill: If you have two coats of Variprime on the steel and Variprime on the
El spar and rib, I wouldn't worry. I don't know what the "curved portion"
is that you refer to, but I would think the most important thing is to have
your primer between the two dis-similar metals. A lot of people prefer
epoxy on their steel parts. (I used Variprime on my first RV). You could
spray additional coats of epoxy or Variprime after the two parts are riveted
together. Also, you will probably be painting this area with your finish
coat because it is visible. This should help seal out moisture. If you
have access to a bead blaster, this does a great job of paint prep on steel
parts. I used rubber gloves to handle after the blast, used DuPont 224S to
stabilize and prep for paint, then primed. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions |
>Does anyone know why the fuel tank construction on a 6/6A calls for
>countersinking one row of #3 rivets on the top and bottom of the tank that
>attaches the tank skin to the rear tank baffle.
>
> Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
>edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
>the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
>in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
>
>Chet Razer
>crazer(at)midwest.net
>
>Chet: You wouldn't be able to slide the rear baffle in position if the
holes were dimpled. There is an awful lot of stuff going on in this small
area. The flange on the W-606B isn't very wide and you want to have your
holes drilled right on in this area (where the # 8 nutplates attach. You
have to be careful that you don't place the # 3
baffle rivets too far forward or you'll ding up the baffle and too far back
will interfere with the flange of W-606B. I drew a center line down the
flange of the W-606B. I then placed a 12" ruler 90 degress to this,
positioned on the wing skin. Drew a line down on the skin and put a
reference mark at say, 4". Then with the tank fitted to the wing, you can
lay the ruler on the reference line, align the tick with 4" and measure up
to 0 and place a mark. I did this in several places. I also used the
"taped magnet, needle on a thread" idea to double check my measurments.
When you go to machine countersink the forward row of #8 screw holes
(where tank attaches to the W-606B) don't forget to clamp a "cutter pilot
support" on. If you machine countersink without this, you won't get a good
countersink as there is not enough material to hold the pilot. I'd leave
the aileron gap seal the way Van shows. Good luck. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 'cheater rivets' |
I have never heard of "pre-squeezing" rivets, but my experience with
rivets is the hardening process starts as soon as you deform the rivet in
any way. Try squeezing a rivet a little and let it sit for about 30 seconds,
then try driveing it with a gun and bar. Compare it to driving an unsqueez
one. There is a _huge_ difference.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
>
> Am I missing something here. What good is it to pre-squeeze a rivet??
> It will take the shape of the hole when you rivet it any way so why
> pre-squeze it? The only reason I would see if if you start with a
> rivet a little longer than normal (too help fill a over size hole)
> then it may want to bend if you hit it with the rivet gun.
> Presqueezing may keep it from bending over. Is this the reason?
>
> If its too big you may as well go to the cheater rivet (1/8 shank
> with 3/32 head size.
> Herman
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap trailing edge |
> One other question, does anyone know what the effect of aging (past the use
> by date) of ProSeal?
>
>
> Royce Craven
> Australia
>
>
It starts to get clumpy.
Chris
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Randy Crothers <rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com> |
| Subject: | Piping air in shop. |
Since there has been quite a bit of discussion about air compressors I
thought I would pass on some info that I gathered at local auto paint supply
regarding piping air off your compressor:
Run vertical off the compressor (after valve) if possible then grade
down aprox. 4" in 50'. You should have a minimum of 25'(optimal 50') to your
first outlet which would of course include a drier/regulator. Also provide
for a drain at end of system. Drain compressor tank, drier, and end of
system drain on a daily basis. I was told that the air close to the
compressor is too warm from compression for the drier to work properly, the
moisture just passes right through as vapor. They also included some info on
pressure drop and proper pipe sizing. Basically 3/4" is as small as they
recommend, going to 1" for lengths over 200".
I am trying to avoid buying a new compressor since I have two of them.
Neither one of them had enough capacity for a spray gun so I have joined
them at the hip hoping that they can work together to supply enough air, so
if this works I get to listen to two of them running when air use demands
it. I am going to try to muffle sound with a peg-board enclosure.
(compressors in hangar). Oh yea, I also started out with steel pipe to get
mounted securely to the wall, then went with PVC rated good for 480 PSI,
(Sch 40). I read about some concern with PVC getting brittle at colder
temperatures and possible shrapnel effect but I hung the pipe so as not to
stress is in hangars anywhere and it's all indoors. Also a bunch cheaper
than steel pipe. (Couldn't find suitable fittings etc.. for ABS) I went back
to steel in the outlet area and securely fastened to wall to avoid stress
from plugging in also. Hope this info helps someone out there.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
On Sun, 21 Jan 1996 av8r(at)hic.net wrote:
> Curt, IMHO if you don't replace the skin you will regret it later... its going
to be
> visable, and you will get fed up of answering "WHY" at fly ins etc. one of those
"bite
> the bullet" situations... I think you are only talking $40.00 or so anyway.
Well, $40 plus $33 UPS to Canada actually, plus taxes, but I ordered some
new metal from Airparts today. Yeah, I couldn't live with myself having a
big splice in a "new" airplane.
> To get those holes right - de-dimple -!
>
> Just flatten 'em back out using a light hammer on your backriveting plate or
table saw
> top....- I speak from experience here!!!- Then you should have no trouble getting
the
> holes to match up.
Great idea. Thanks.
Curt
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Nose or Tail drag. |
>I have been planning to build a -6 even though most of my 600 or so hours
>has been in nose draggers. I did check out in a Champ once and flew it for
>awhile. I lean toward the tail dragger -6 because of better rough field
>capability, prop clearence, looks, and maybe a touch of macho. I can let go
>of the macho reason. I have noticed a few builders have completed and flown
>a -6 and now are building a -6A, this makes me wonder about the other
>reasons. Are you building a -6A because of possible resale value or flying
>experience with the -6? Which one would you sell?
>
>Randy, It's a tough question. I solved the problem. I buiilt a 6 forst
and am now building a 6-A. After that, I'll probably build another 6. I
like the looks of the 6 (with the tilt-up canopy) better than the 6-A. The
6-A would make life a little easier out here in Nebraska where we have a lot
of wind and a lot of small fields with only one runway. My wife has a
little problem in a 6-A. She's short and has short legs. The weldment
where the main gears attach hit her in the right leg. I will solve the leg
problem by not bolting in the right control stick, That way, we can pull it
and she can move her leg over. I've done this on my 6 because in a
crosswind landing, I sometimes need more aileron than my passenger's legs
will allow. This is another reason that I'm using electric elevator trim on
the 6-A. Even though I made a longer fuel selector valve mounting plate and
put the throttle, mixture and trim pedestal up from that to the sub-panel
(moved everything forward), my right leg hits the trim knob when using right
stick. On the 6-A, don't forget, you need enough room to install wings
while the fuselage is upside down in the jig. I do think resale value could
be higher on the 6-A and I would think insurance would be cheaaper. Bob
Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, John Ammeter wrote:
> Just a thought; check with a model airplane/whatever store and see if there
> is a brass tubing that will fit inside the hole after the ribs have been
> dimpled. If you can find such a tube place a drill bit inside the tube and
> drill a 'pilot' hole in the new skin. The new hole in the skin will be much
> smaller than a #41 bit but can then be drilled out to size. If you can't
> find a tube of the right size find someone with a small lathe and make your
> own.
Good idea.
>
> If you _really_ want to make work for yourself you could drill the skins and
> ribs out to 1/8". This would entail redimpling but, if you use the rivets
> with the smaller heads, no one will be the wiser.
I havn't seen any definitive information on the structural qualities of
the "cheater" rivets. I do use them, but I would hesitate to do a whole
skin with them. The head is pretty small and might not have much "pull
through" resistance.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Engines Weights |
Ed:
> Basically, the farther fwd the CG, the more stable & less responsive.
> Farther back, just the opposite. Not only pitch, but all three axis. The
> more fwd the CG, the more downforce the HS has to exert to balance the
> aircraft. More downforce=more drag, heavier pitch forces, etc.
>
The theory makes perfect sense to me. Subjectively, how significant
would you say the effect is in an RV-6? I was very happy with the pitch
response of the RV-4 I flew (with 320, wood prop, and two adults on board).
Would an RV-6 with CS prop and solo be (a) hugely different, (b) noticably
different but still quite nice for aeros, or (c) only very slightly
different? This may be an academic question, because I find your arguments
in favour of fixed pitch props (below) convincing.
> I personally love CS props. However, I love them on airplanes that someone
> ELSE has to maintain.. . CS props are very expensive to buy and
> maintain. A new prop and governor will set you back about $6k. I fly a 182
> for a local skydiving center, and a lot of the downtime centers around the
> prop.
>
> A CS prop won't really lower your cruise RPM; If you just bring the prop
> back, but leave the MAP up you're still going to be decreasing power. HP is
> a function of both MAP and RPM. Where the CS helps in cruise is by being
> able to operate at a given HP and keep the throttle wide open. This gives
> you better effeciency by allowing the intake air a straight shot through the
> carb. Estimates range from .5-1gph better consumption at 75% cruise. This
> is roughly 10% (only during cruise) so maybe 5% overall. Is an extra 5%
> efficiency worth the cost/maint of a CS setup?
>
> So you can operate at 75% (or more, or less) power and leave the throttle
> open. As far as just decreasing RPM, you can get the same effective power
> (and fuel burn) by reducing MAP & RPM with a fixed prop. You also get better
> climb performance with a CS, but again, is 2000 fpm THAT much better than
> 1800?
>
Good info, thanks. You make an excellent point about the maintenance cost
of a CS prop. I want a package that I'll be happy living with in terms of
cost and effort to maintain.
> I don't think that any endeavor has as many tradeoffs as aviation. I hope
> this makes sense, it's kinda hard to explain in this medium. My apologies if
> I misunderstood your question and you already know this!
>
My experience with props is limited to uncoupled turbines, so engine RPM
and MP are new ways of thinking about the problem for me.
I have assumed that, if I pick the right pitch for a fixed-pitch prop, I
will be able to cruise at WOT at 7,500 ASL and be getting about 75% power.
Is that a realistic assumption, or is there a subtlety I'm missing?
Tedd McHenry
tedd(at)idacom.hp.com
Edmonton, Canada
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | tech support question |
There seems to be some ambiguity as to the rivet spacing callouts for
the rivets that attach the WD-603 to the 1 x 1 1/4 x 1/8 angle.
Drawing 31 shows top and side views of the top weldement (WD-602) with
1/2" and 3/4" spacing respectively where it attaches to the main
longerons, but I can't find a specific callout for the WD-603 (bottom)
weldement. What spacing should be used here?
Thanks.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu> |
| Subject: | RV List: How do you make alodine work |
I have figured out how to dip a part and it woks great. But I
do not have very good results when doing a large piece such as a wing
skin. I'm using the Dupont cleaner and then the gold conversion
alodine. I scruff up the surface and either squirt on the alodine or
paint it on. I wait about 3-4 minutes and washoff. The aluminum does
not turn a gold color like it does when dipped. It turns a darker
aluminum color with a tinge of green, the same green you see on copper as
it adjusts to the elements. Am I missing a step, or is this the way to
do it.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Bob Busick
RV-6
rbusick(at)nsmu.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Landing Lights |
>>B.F.,
>>
>>I purchased the BAC lighting kits and am very happy with them. They come with
>>very easy instructions and the pieces are anodized black and fit perfectly in
>>the outside LE. I also got a chance to look at the duck works plans and
>>lights though not installed - another builder here is installing them. I
>>don't think you could go wrong with either. I like the Barnard light fixture
>>better-regular GE aviation lights. I also like the small opening(lense
>>cover).
>>
>>Shelby in Nasvhille
>>
>Would you give us the address & phone of BAC, also the price for each light
>kit?
>Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6
Barnard Aircraft Components (BAC)
3327 Wood Lane
Cameron Park, CA 95682
(916) 676-5601
$120 plus shipping - includes a Halogen 4509 lamp.
Gil Alexander ... just ordered one last Saturday!
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
> > Also the wing skins to not extend out far enough
> >to rivet the wingtips onto them.
>
> thats a easy fix, take some angle say 032" 5/8x5/8 and rivet it to the end
> ribs fluteing as necessary (or notching) the leg rivetted to the rib to
> follow the shape of the rib, allowing for the thickness of the wing tip, trim
> the wing tip to fit against the wing over the top of the angle, put nut
> plates on the angle and use #6 screws with reinforcement washers through the
> wing tip, screw wing tip on to angle.
>
> Jerry Springer RV-6 First flight July 14, 1989 :=)
>
I was doing some work on the restoration of Van's prototype RV-3 and
noticed that he had built it this way -- no flanges at all on the
fiberglass tips, wing skins flush with the rib web, and .032 angle
riveted to the rib webs, with the wingtip butted up against the skin
and screwed (riveted?) to the angle. Perhaps this was the way all early
RV-3s were?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com> |
Hello,
I've just be successful (I hope) at subscribing to the rv-list, thanks to some
help from Matt Dralle. Boy, do I wish I had seen some of the helpful
information in the archive earlier!
My project is an RV-6 whose tail feathers and wings are already done (except for
the fiberglass - ugh), with the fuselage skeleton pretty well underway.
One annoying thing I have experienced while setting the 1/8" rivets is that a
pucker will sometimes occur in the material of the part exposed to the shop
head. I have checked the fit of the parts and the final dimensions of the
driven rivet, and have not been able to determine exactly what causes this -
although I suspect it has to do with the compressive forces of the rivet
affecting the relatively soft material of the parts being riveted together. A
typical example would be riveting the nose ribs to the spar web on the wing,
where the shop head is on the rib flange.
Has anyone else experienced this? Is it something to be concerned about (I hope
not!)?
I live in Connecticut and keep current by occasionally flying a Piper Seneca II
(about 150 hrs a year) typically on business trips. My wife and I both miss
flying for the fun of it, and we can't wait until our RV is done!
By the way, if anyone out there is feeling gracious and can offer a ride in a
finished RV-6 or -6A, I would certainly appreciate a chance to see what an RV is
like in the air, since I already have plenty of exposure to what they are like
on the ground in the construction jig.
Happy building/flying.
Bruce Stobbe
70743,2727 @compuserve.com
Winsted, CT
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
> From: aol.com!JerryFlyRV(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 03:31:41 -0500
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Another way to do this if you do not have your bottom skin rivetted on is to
> get a few holes started along the spar to hold the skin in place and then
> have someone hold a block of wood against the outside of the skin and put in
> clecos while you back drill through the ribs with a long drill bit. I think
> you will find that even if the ribs are dimpled you will still get a good
> fit.
>
> Jerry Springer RV-6
I did this on one of my skins that I messed up and wasn't happy with
the results. It was too difficult to keep from wallowing out the holes
in the ribs, especially since they were already larger due to being dimpled.
Course it was a LE skin, and I was back drilling from inside, with a
snake drill.... it was awful :-(
I wish Curt would do SOMETHING and tell us what he did and how it came
out so we can stop talking about this... (myself included :-)
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 'cheater rivets' |
<9601230134.AA15390(at)dierks.austin.ibm.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> Am I missing something here. What good is it to pre-squeeze a rivet??
> It will take the shape of the hole when you rivet it any way so why
> pre-squeze it? The only reason I would see if if you start with a
> rivet a little longer than normal (too help fill a over size hole)
> then it may want to bend if you hit it with the rivet gun.
> Presqueezing may keep it from bending over. Is this the reason?
Yes.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Weight of Primer - real data |
Guys,
The manufacturer has the data. The following is from the Sterling
Aviation Application Guide. Dry film paint thicknesses can be measured
using a micrometer, and probably should be done during your practice work
before painting your RV.
Sterling's Best paint system
U-1201 (MIL-23377 primer) 0.0007 inch coating 0.0093 #/sq. ft.
U-1000 primer 0.002 inch max. 0.0146 #/sq. ft.
U-1000 color 0.002 inch recommended 0.0258 #/sq. ft.
Total paint weight 0.05 lbs. per sq. ft.
Sterling's Good paint system
U-1201 (MIL-23377 primer) 0.0007 inch coating 0.0093 #/sq. ft.
U-1000 color 0.002 inch recommended 0.0258 #/sq. ft.
Total paint weight 0.035 lbs. per sq. ft.
Sterling's Economical paint system - not as good corrosion protection
M-3325 (wash primer) 0.0003 inch coating 0.0027 #/sq. ft.
U-1000 color 0.002 inch recommended 0.0258 #/sq. ft.
Total paint weight 0.029 lbs. per sq. ft.
Anyone know the approximate square footage for a RV6 exterior??
I would guess 300 square foot, which would give a 15 lb. paint job
with the best system if you can get the application thicknesses right.
This is probably the best thing to practise while getting ready for final
paint.
If you say the interior surfaces are double the exterior, then
0.0007 inch thickness of epoxy primer is only 5.6 lbs weight. Even if this
is off by a factor of 2, then internal priming is only 10 lbs, a small
trade off for my peace of mind IMHO. This is contingent on getting the
primer thicknesses correct, so don't overdo the epoxy primer thicknesses!
This agrees with the figures below.
I would think other paint systems are similar, but ask the
manufacturer. If he doesn't know the finished paint weights, then they are
obviously not really catering to the aviation market!
... hope these figures help ... Gil Alexander
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
RV6A, #20701 ... fitting plexiglas
>>I am using Polyfiber EP420 Epoxy Primer. I asked the Polyfiber guy about
>>the finished weight of the primer and I think he estimated about 30% of the
>>"in the can" weight.
>>
>>I have primed every square inch of the interior so far and have used
>>about 3.6 quarts. I can't see using more than a gallon on the remaining
>>parts (fuselage). So, lets say 30% x 2 gallons x 9 lbs per gallon (wet).
>>Thats 5.4 lbs, total, and thats using a heavy, wet coat on all the
>>non-alclad parts and skin faying surfaces,and a very thin coat everywhere
>>else.
>>
>>Weight is weight, but 5.4 lbs ain't much. Besides, a primered structure
>>*looks* nicer, IMHO. :)
>>
>>Curt Reimer
>>
>Gary Sobek, a rv6 builder for 8 yrs, told me that he once participated in a
>class project where they were required to prime both sides of a piece of
>2024 T3 .032 aluminium with variprime. They acid washed and primed,
>weighing before and after to the nearest gram. The weight after priming
>was 1% more than the unprimed piece. Any piece weighing more than 1.5% was
>considered too much. Total weight for a rv6 should be way under ten
>pounds. This weight agrees with what curt reimer calculated for his
>primer.
>Jerry Forrest RV6
>forrest1(at)haven.ios.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dacain(at)rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (David Cain) |
I have requested to be deleted from this newgroup at least 3 times.
What do I need to do to be removed ?
Who is the sys ops administrator ?
Please remove my name/address from this newsgroup.
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
>I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair this weekend.
One of the >things that caught my eye was that the builder had wrapped all of
the exhaust system, from >the exhaust port down the stack to the bottom of the
cowl including the cabin heat muff, with a >heat wrap. He gave two reasons: 1)
the tightly cowled Lancair needs all the heat protection it >can get; and 2)
maintaining the temperature of the exhaust gas in the pipe helps with
>horsepower. He says this is because exhaust gas slows as it cools, and that
causes back >pressure at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas to retain as much
heat as possible until it hits >the air under the airplane. (stuff cut)
I happened to be talking to Larry Vetterman shortly after reading this. Larry
says that this is a "no no". And that I needed to get back to the rv-list to
keep someone from destroying their exhaust system by wrapping the exhaust pipes.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 N47RV
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net> |
FYI, I've been trying to get my address changed to a new one, but there
has been no response from either majordomo or Matt. Does anyone know
what's happened?
- Alan
Wannabe RV-6 Builder
House shopping starts in March...
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, David Cain wrote:
> I have requested to be deleted from this newgroup at least 3 times.
> What do I need to do to be removed ?
>
> Who is the sys ops administrator ?
>
>
> Please remove my name/address from this newsgroup.
>
> Thank you.
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
Bill,
I think you're being too paranoid but if you're really losing sleep drill a
little hole in the end of the horn, squirt in fish oil with a syringe, drain
it and then plug it with goop of some sort.
Leo
>Hi Folks,
>
>OK, I have gotten totally paranoid (rightfully so?) after reading the
>list. In my ignorance, I just cleaned the control horns and primed
>them with 2 coats of Variprime, sanding between them. I made an effort
>to spray down the curved portion, but nothing heroic.
>
>Now, from reading the list, it looks like I have left the horn very
>susceptable to the dreaded rust and corrosion. One elevator is done
>and the other horn (also painted) is sitting loose. Can I get some
>advice on what best to do to make it so that I will minimize the onset
>of corrosion? (And if the answer is scrap the elevator and build a new
>one, getting two new horns, PLEASE break it to me gently!!!)
>
>Thanks, guys.
>
>Bill
>--
>
> ___ _______________________
> \ \ _ _ / /
> \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \
> X-*#####*******......./ Chicago /
> o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \
> \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com /
> \______________________\
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rust47rg(at)one.net |
| Subject: | Airplane data RV-4 N47RG |
In the spirit of Mr. Skinner's idea for data on flying RV's here's mine.
Name: Rusty Gossard Cincinnati, Ohio, Based LUK, Work # 513-621-9462
E-mail rust47rg(at)one.net
Model: RV-4
First flight: 8/6/94
Total Time: 175 hrs.
Weight: 965 Before paint cg 69.48 (Battery installed in back)
Engine: lyc. 0-360 A1A, 180 hp (factory new from lyc. at osh 3 years ago)
Prop: Hartzell HC-C2YK constant speed
Starter: Lyc. lightweight (Factory install)
Fuel selector: Delrin Spool type (Like the very positve detents but its $)
Alternator: Pelican 35 amp
Volt. reg.: from Van's
Inst. Light Dimmer: from Van's
Battery: Concord RG 35 amp (replaced gell cell pulled at 13 months)
Exhaust: Vetterman stainless 4 pipe
Heat Muff: Two tube Bought thru Vetterman (Works well down to 15 degrees f)
Elevator trim: Manual
Flaps: Electric
Panel: Full gyro
Avionics: King KX 155 with Glideslope, KT 76A xponder, sigtronics intercom,
Garmin 95xl coupled to Navaid a/p thru "smart coupler" (KX155 also coupled)
Strikefinder (IFR without weather avoidance isn't fun)
Engine Instruments: all Electronics Int. including 16 Channel ultimate
scanner, big bucks, but worth every cent)
Tail wheel: Av. Products full swivel
Interior: D.J. Lauritzen (also canopy cover...D.J.& Buz do great work)
Paint: Pratt & Lambert Jet Glo Professionaly done at Perfect Finish, Hamilton
Ohio. (I'm from the "paint it after you fly it for 6 months school" so a
commercial paint job is about the only way. Considering how many times I
had the cowl off in the first 50 hours and the fact I reset the incidence of
the horizontal stab. I'm glad I didn't paint it before I flew it.)
Lighting: RMD Tip lights(Modified), Whelen Tip (internal mount) and tail
strobes.
Problems: Mechanical tach was screwed up from the begining. I thought I had
a prop problem but didn't and it was hard to identify. The tach was
attitude sensitive. There is a jam nut in the tach that was loose that let
the "drum" pull back from the magnet during a climb. This resulted in a
lower rpm indication. When you leveled out it would go up. Drove me crazy
until I finally identified the problem. I now have an E.I. electric tach and
like it.
Broke extruded hinge on the cowl behind the spinner on both sides at about
115 hours. Its a common problem... some people put a steel plate in and
screw or dzus to it.
The D.G. doesn't like aerobatics....common problem well documented on the
"list".
I have a pilot controlable oil cooler door and it's still hard to get oil temp
above 165 f when the oat is below 30 f.
Installed cowl hold down to prevent dynamic pressure from pushing cowl into
alternator bracket or pully. (Cowl rubbed the bracket before I put it in
and would eventually have created a problem.)
Installed capacitive type fuel level senders. I don't like them....the're
hard to set and require resetting.
I had Hartzell balance the prop at 100 hrs. $190 and I thought it was worth it.
Performance data....I take everybody's performance figures with a grain of
salt. There are too many variables in the collection of data i.e.
temperature, variable winds aloft, etc. etc. etc. Having said that, I'll
post mine here with the comment that they are as realistic as I can offer.
Rate of climb: 120mph indicated 28 degrees f 2000 fpm (Time to climb 500msl
to 3500msl 90 seconds) best angle 3200 fpm indicated
Cruise: 8000 msl Throttle open (23 1/2 mp) 2400 rpm 177 KNOTS Based on
triangular course with gps data. Top speed ... Don't know, I've never run it
all the way up.
Fuel burn: 9 gph leaned to peak cruise settings
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 'cheater rivets' |
If a rivet can be pre-squeezed without bending it over, how come it can't be
squeezed/driven in the hole? The rivet doesnt know anything about the hole
before it expands to fill the hole. My experience has been that the gun/bar
method is more forgiving of long rivets than a squeezer. This "trick" is
starting to sound like snake-oil. Fill me in if I've missed the point.
Chris
cruble(at)cisco.com
>
> > Am I missing something here. What good is it to pre-squeeze a rivet??
> > It will take the shape of the hole when you rivet it any way so why
> > pre-squeze it? The only reason I would see if if you start with a
> > rivet a little longer than normal (too help fill a over size hole)
> > then it may want to bend if you hit it with the rivet gun.
> > Presqueezing may keep it from bending over. Is this the reason?
>
> Yes.
>
> --
> Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
> voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
> fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
> email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions |
> >Does anyone know why the fuel tank construction on a 6/6A calls for
> >countersinking one row of #3 rivets on the top and bottom of the tank that
> >attaches the tank skin to the rear tank baffle.
The rear baffle rivets are really close to the main spar web flange when
the tank is properly seated. In fact, I had to trim the *web flange* (NOT
the 1/4" spar flange strips) to get the tank to seat on the spar. Dimples
would cause even more interference problems. I also think you would need
a special dimple die to do it since this rivet line is very close to the
bend in the rear baffle.
Also, when you have the rear baffle all gooped up with pro seal and are
ready to assemble it to the tank, it is difficult to keep the proseal
from smearing against the tank skin as you seat the baffle. A dimpled
skin would make matters worse.
Anyone done any tests to compare the strength of a proseal+rivet joint
compared a standard riveted joint? I'd guess double the strength, at least.
> > Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
> >edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
> >the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
> >in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
You'd best check with Van's on this one. That gap could have a very
significant effect on the aileron forces & effectiveness.
Curt Reimer
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001) |
Oh you guys! Learn how to use the system! :-) I unsubscribed David Cain
with no problem by sending the following message:
To: rv-list-request(at)matronics.com
Subject:
unsubscribe dacain(at)rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Nothing else.
Alan,
I made the changes you requested last weekend as I recall. Are you not
receiving mail where you'd like it?
Matt Dralle
RV-List Admin.
>--------------
>
>FYI, I've been trying to get my address changed to a new one, but there
>has been no response from either majordomo or Matt. Does anyone know
>what's happened?
>
>- Alan
>
>Wannabe RV-6 Builder
>House shopping starts in March...
>
>On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, David Cain wrote:
>
>> I have requested to be deleted from this newgroup at least 3 times.
>> What do I need to do to be removed ?
>>
>> Who is the sys ops administrator ?
>>
>>
>> Please remove my name/address from this newsgroup.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>--------------
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: 'cheater rivets' |
<199601232147.NAA16602(at)yorkie.cisco.com>
| From: | Ed Weber <ebw(at)hpfiebw.fc.hp.com> |
> If a rivet can be pre-squeezed without bending it over, how come it can't
be
> squeezed/driven in the hole? The rivet doesnt know anything about the hole
> before it expands to fill the hole. My experience has been that the gun/bar
> method is more forgiving of long rivets than a squeezer. This "trick" is
> starting to sound like snake-oil. Fill me in if I've missed the point.
Certainly if the hole can be reached with a squeezer, just do it in
place. At my skill level, I feel less likely to bend over a rivet
with a squeezer than with a gun. Pre-squeezing both shortens the
rivet and seats it better in the hole lessening the chance *I* would
bend it over with a gun.
Actually I have never needed to use this method. I was just relating
what an EAA tech counsellor (who has built a 6) told me while
inspecting my horizontal stab. It sounded like good advice to me.
Although your point about hardening is well taken. I think there
would need to be a (very) short time between squeezing and driving the rivet.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com |
Rusty,
After looking over your data, I can only say that your airplane is almost
exactly what I hope mine will be when finished.
Now, how about getting some pictures over to Mr. Hovan and his Web page.
In fact, that's the only thing missing from the "Finished Airplane Template".
It would be really nice to SEE a roster of RV-LISTers airplanes on the
RV web page.
John
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: HELP! Another Airport on the Chopping Block |
I forgot to mention. If it's not too much trouble, please CC to
me any letters you send to the Aeronautics Section regarding the
Pacific City Airport.
Also, just because you don't live in Oregon, don't let that stop
you from writing. This type of thing is important to ALL of us, and
besides, Pacific City has historically been a favorite "fly-out"
destination during the Van's Homecoming wekend. PLEASE WRITE
NOW!
Thanks!
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:44:29 -0800
> From: randall(at)edt.edt.com (Randall Henderson)
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: HELP! Another Airport on the Chopping Block
> Cc: pdxrv-list(at)edt.com
>
> ALERT to pilots in general, and Pacific Northwest pilots in particular:
>
> Another airport is on the chopping block. The Oregon Aeronautics
> Division is asking for input from pilots in support of keeping the
> Pacific City airport open. Apparently there are some people down there
> who are trying to close the airport.
>
> If you have ever flown into Pacific City you know that this is one of
> the nicer places to go. The airport is right in town, walking distance
> to the ocean, restaurants (including the famous "Fat Freddies"), vacation
> rentals, etc. And if you have NOT ever flown in there, you might not ever
> get the chance. It is IMPERATIVE that we unite in support of keeping the
> airport open!
>
> I know how often many of us say "yeah I really should write about that
> one" but never end up doing so, so I have included below a block outline
> of a letter that can be used as a starting point. All you have to do
> is save this message to a file, edit it and add your comments in the body,
> send it to the printer and mail or better yet FAX it out NOW (503) 373-1688,
> before you forget. Include whatever comments you feel are appropriate, and
> if you have trouble framing an argument, just say something like "please add
> my name to the list of people in support of keeping pacific City Airport open".
>
> Pacific City airport is too nice an airport to lose!
>
> Deadline for comments is January 31, 1996.
>
> Randall Henderson
>
> --- cut here --- cut here --- cut here --- cut here --- cut here ---
>
> January 22, 1996
>
>
>
>
> Betty Stansbury, Airports Manager
> ODOT Aeronautics Section
> 3040 25th St. SE
> Salem OR 97310
> FAX (503) 373-1688
>
>
> Dear Ms. Stansbury:
>
> (Add your comments here)
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
>
> (Your name)
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA> |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Randall Henderson wrote:
> I wish Curt would do SOMETHING and tell us what he did and how it came
> out so we can stop talking about this... (myself included :-)
Sorry, I havn't done ANYTHING yet, other than order a new skin. When I
get it I'll try the "hammer the dimples flat and use the old skin as a
pattern" method. My replacement material will take a few days to get
here. I should have enough for *two* replacement skins (had to order 48"
wide piece from Airparts), so I can afford to screw up one more skin (knock
wood).
The only problem with the RV-list is...
Ask a question and it immediately generates 20 replies! :O
Cheers
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Rich Klee <Rich_Klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com> |
| Subject: | Re: 'cheater rivets' |
This method works quite well for couple of enlarged holes at a
time. You have the opportunity to line up the rivet perfectly
centered on your rivet set in the squeezer, and if it starts
bending over, well just throw it away and try another one. Neither
one usually can be done in "the hole". I have never really noticed
any hardening on the 3/32" rivets - probably because they are
pretty easy to squeeze.
rich - skinning 6a fuse
=======================================================================
Rich Klee 4564 Chicago Ave.
rich_klee(at)ccm.fm.intel.com Fair Oaks, CA 95628
(916) 863-1927 (will accept faxes)
=======================================================================
> If a rivet can be pre-squeezed without bending it over, how
come it can't be
> squeezed/driven in the hole? The rivet doesnt know anything about
the hole
> before it expands to fill the hole. My experience has been that
the gun/bar
> method is more forgiving of long rivets than a squeezer. This "trick" is
> starting to sound like snake-oil. Fill me in if I've missed the point.
Certainly if the hole can be reached with a squeezer, just do it in
place. At my skill level, I feel less likely to bend over a rivet
with a squeezer than with a gun. Pre-squeezing both shortens the
rivet and seats it better in the hole lessening the chance *I* would
bend it over with a gun.
Actually I have never needed to use this method. I was just relating
what an EAA tech counsellor (who has built a 6) told me while
inspecting my horizontal stab. It sounded like good advice to me.
Although your point about hardening is well taken. I think there
would need to be a (very) short time between squeezing and driving the rivet.
--
Ed Weber Hewlett-Packard Company
voice: (970) 229-3241 ICBD Product Design
fax: (970) 229-6580 3404 E Harmony Road, MS 72
email: ebw(at)fc.hp.com Fort Collins, Co 80525
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DSlavens(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Which Plane To Build? Now I Know |
> >Now the question is - Which RV to build? No question here, I'll be
> >waiting on the RV-8.
>
> >Back to lurking...
>
> >Mike Grubb
> >Mobile, AL
>
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>Welcome to the club!
>
>Steve Johnson
>spjohnson(at)mmm.com
>
>Waiting on the RV-8
>
>
>
Mike & Steve,
Must be more than a few of us out here !!
Dick Slavens Also, waiting for RV-8.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jperri(at)interserv.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
61.31 (h) endorsement not required for experimental
JMP
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
>I have requested to be deleted from this newgroup at least 3 times.
>What do I need to do to be removed ?
>
>Who is the sys ops administrator ?
>
>
>Please remove my name/address from this newsgroup.
>
>Thank you.
>
Send an E-mail message to: rv-list-request(at)matronics.com
In the body of the message write: unsubscribe
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Flap trailing edge |
>> One other question, does anyone know what the effect of aging (past the use
>> by date) of ProSeal?
>>
>>
>> Royce Craven
>> Australia
>>
>>
>
> It starts to get clumpy.
>
> Chris
>
>I would be nervous about using out of date Proseal on something as
important as sealing fuel tanks. You can always use the out of date stuff
to glue things together. Maybe one of those "plastic airplane" guys could
use it to stick their airplanes together :) Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions |
> Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
>edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
>the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
>in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
Good question. Someone else will probably have an answer. One little tidbit
of generic information that I've learned (the hard way) over the years is
that the designer does most things for a reason. Anytime we "improve"
something in the plans we have to keep making changes down the line to
accomodate them until we come to a point where we can't make things work
properly anymore.
Then the light comes on and we say "Oh..... now I see why it was supposed to
be that way. Hello, Van's - I need a new 601, 602, 603, etc." I don't
change anything anymore unless I know what the repercussions will be.
Ed Bundy (seat backs)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
>head. As far as shear strength they should be much stronger but in tension
>they would not have the same size factory head at least in regards to the
>area bearing on the skin. Maybe the best course would be to use the 1/8"
>rivets with the standard heads. The heads would be larger than the 3/32"
>rivets but would certainly be strong enough.
I remember reading in an aircraft standards book that "oops" rivets should
only be used for an occasional goof, and not in any great quantities in a
given area. According to this book, they are NOT considered structural
because of the reduced skin contact at the head.
As long as you dimple the skin (countersinking for a 1/8 rivet needs a skin
thickness of .050) 1/8 rivets would be fine, and I doubt you'd see much
difference in the finished product. But you may want to bite the bullet and
just get a new skin. It will probably drive you crazy forever...
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | MGGX07C(at)prodigy.com ( SCOTT GESELE) |
| Subject: | Elevator deflection |
I had the same problem, according to Van's the solution is a small
notch in the FLANGE of the HS rear spar. DO NOT notch the tapered
strips.
Hope this helps.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rfrawley(at)cisco.com (Richard Frawley) |
| Subject: | Re: Mazda powered RV-4 |
>Have received several relayed messages (via E-mail at my compuserve address)
>about getting on the rv-list. Several people expressed interest in finding out
>more info on my Mazda rotary powered RV-4. At 172 flight hours it is
>doing well
>and I continue to slowly increase the cruise power as I gain confidence in it.
>Top speed is now about the same as 160 Lyc powered RVs (202 mph)
what cruise power does this represent ? How does it compare in terms of
fuel consumption and running costs ?
What was your inital cost ? Is this chepaer than the 160 Lycoming ?
>
>Don't know the ropes on the rv-list so I'm sort of sending this message
>into the
>blind. If anyone wants more info on the engine or aircraft, I'd be glad to
>answer questions.
>
>E-mail me at 71175.606(at)compuserve.com
>Is there a way for me to directly access rv-list from compuserve?
>
>Regards to all, Tracy Crook
Regards
Richard Frawley
Cisco Systems Australia
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Frawley | |
| Mgr, Strategic Opportunities | || || * * * |
| Phone: 61-2-935-4123 | || || - * | | | * - |
| Mobile: 61-18-260-594 | |||| |||| |o|*| | | | |*|o| |
| Fax: 61-2-957-4077 | ..:||||||:..:||||||:..| |===========| | |
| Email:rfrawley(at)cisco.com | cisco Systems Australia |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pager on 61-2-430-6381...leave a message with your number to call..
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight of Primer - real data |
> Anyone know the approximate square footage for a RV6 exterior??
>gil(at)rassp.hac.com
>RV6A, #20701
>
I came up with 451 square feet for the exterior of the RV-6. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
>I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair this weekend.
One of the >things that caught my eye was that the builder had wrapped all of
the exhaust system, from >the exhaust port down the stack to the bottom of the
cowl including the cabin heat muff, with a >heat wrap. He gave two reasons: 1)
the tightly cowled Lancair needs all the heat protection it >can get; and 2)
maintaining the temperature of the exhaust gas in the pipe helps with
>horsepower. He says this is because exhaust gas slows as it cools, and that
causes back >pressure at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas to retain as much
heat as possible until it hits >the air under the airplane. (stuff cut)
I happened to be talking to Larry Vetterman shortly after reading this. Larry
says that this is a "no no". And that I needed to get back to the rv-list to
keep someone from destroying their exhaust system by wrapping the exhaust pipes.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 N47RV
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Stan Blanton <75472.372(at)compuserve.com> |
I am in the process of fitting my main longerons to the steel weldments on the
firewall. It appears that the only way to get the longerons attached to the
firewall is to have a rather noticable inward bow in them between the firewall
and the F-604 bulkhead. My concern is the future installation of the foward deck
to this inward bowed area. Has anyone else had this problem? Van's said "make it
fit".
Thanks,
Stan Blanton
75472.372(at)compuserve.com
Jiggiing fuselage bulkheads and longerons
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Mike & Shirley Hiscock" <shiscock(at)fox.nstn.ca> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data |
From: one.net!rust47rg(at)matronics.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:51:59 -0500
Subject: RV-List: Airplane data RV-4 N47RG
In the spirit of Mr. Skinner's idea for data on flying RV's here's mine.
Name: Rusty Gossard Cincinnati,
Delurking in progress...
Mr. Skinner, I believe you have struck upon an outstanding idea. As a -4
builder, its great to see the options other people have used, and their
results.
For those lucky enough (no doubt thru hard work) to be able to post their
data, please include your individual email. This would allow those of us with
questions
on options you have chosen, not to clutter up "the list"
cloaking device engaged
mike hiscock
don't stagnate, RVate
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU> |
| Subject: | Aileron Gap seals |
Someone, sorry I foget who, commented that they thought their tight gap
seals were leading to aileron forces building up at speed.
Having just put considerable effort into keeping these tight I am distressed
to say the least.
I have seen Van speak about gap seals including devices to make them squeaky
tight without mentioning stick forces.
Does anyone else have experience with this?
Cheers
Leo Davies
Skinning fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: rivet joint strength |
>Curt Reimer asked;
>Anyone done any tests to compare the strength of a proseal+rivet joint
>compared a standard riveted joint? I'd guess double the strength, at least.
It's been a long time since I looked at the data for this, but the sealed
riveted joint is actually weaker the
shear load than just a riveted attachment. I believe the sealer lets the rivet
get loaded in shear and bending,
rather than just a shear load. BTW, I don't remember dimpled skins being part
of the empirical data.
Jim Ayers
LOM RV-3 N47RV
102337.2252(at)compuserve.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Weight of primer...real data |
>> Anyone know the approximate square footage for a RV6 exterior?? I would
guess 300 square foot, which would give a 15 lb. paint job.. <<
Hmmm...the wings alone are almost 220 sq. ft. (110 sq. ft. wing area x (top and
bottom)). I suspect with all six stabilizer surfaces and "four" fuselage
surfaces and wheel legs/pants....i'll take a wild stab at 650-750 sq. ft.
Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
>I'll second Jim's comment about not buying from Spruce unless not available
>anywhere else. When I was building my -6 I'd order 5 or 6 items at a time
>from them; even when I asked them to not ship until everything was available
>they'd still ship a $4.00 part and charge me $3.00 for shipping. Also, I
>day they still owe me about $50.00. I will not buy anything from them
>unless they are the only supplier and even then I'll try to do without the
>item. Wicks and Wag Aero are more cooperative, friendlier and not so damn
>arrogant. Buy from them and Avery and you'll never be sorry.
Wow, I thought it was just me. I've ordered from them about 5 times and
never gotten everything the way I ordered it. I ordered a dimple die set
from them because of their location (delivery is 2 days less) and they only
sent the male half! When I called the 800 number to staighten it out they
wouldn't talk to me and made me call the toll customer sevice line. I
proceded to wait 5 minutes on hold. After I explained the problem, they
wanted me to send the part back and wait for the set after that.
The end result was a set of dies that were equal in quality to Avery, for
about the same price, but it took 2 weeks and a healthy dose of frustration.
My experiences with Spruce has left a very bad taste in my mouth. They are
very sloppy, arrogant, and have terrible customer service. I returned a
defective product once and it took 6 months and 4-5 phone calls (approx $5
worth) before the credit finally showed up on my card.
On the other hand I have nothing but GREAT things to say about Avery's. If
they have it GET IT from them. You won't be sorry.
Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Thomas N. Martin" <103212.65(at)compuserve.com> |
I have a RV-4 with a I0-360. I would like to minimize the oil on the underside
of the plane. Larry Vetterman has suggested use an automotive type air valve and
dump the crankcase fumes into the exhaust. Sounds good and I know at least one
RVer who is doing this. My automotive race car part supplier says that I need to
have a simple(but ugly) oil separtor on top of the crankcase or we could suck
oil out. This doesn`t sound likely and I am looking for ideas and suggestions.
I
do not want to do anything that is likely to pressurize the crankcase.
Tom Martin
RV-4
St.Thomas Ontario
519-631-1369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Bennett" <elanora(at)zip.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Wires past the -6 Spar |
>
> >on the inside. My question is how do I get the wires from behind the spar
> to
> >the front. There is the hole in the spar for the trim, since I am using
> >electrics there. Do people put holes in the spar bulkhead, above the spar,
> >and if so, how big can you go?
>
> Yes, according to Van's, holes are allows in the spar bulhead (F-604)
> above the spar. I didn't go above 1/2" in this area. Van's also stated to me
> when I asked, that wire feed-through holes are allows in the spar, but ONLY
> in the webbing areas and areas inside if the main gear attachment hardware on
> the -6A. This puts then in the center areas like the trim cable hole.
>
In fact if you put the wires through grommetted holes at the center
of the wing ie on the spar web join, you could pull the wing off
without disconnecting wires.
Peter Bennett
Sydney Australia
RV6 skinning fuselage
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Peter Bennett" <elanora(at)zip.com.au> |
| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Wrap |
Here's a good argument coming on. I'll kick it off.
Sounds like a load of old cobblers to me. The gas contracts as it
cools so a given mass of gas exits the pipe slower than it enters if
it cools along the way.
Back pressure is a function of atmospheric pressure and friction
drop. Friction drop increases with velocity but reduces with density.
The math is beyond me, but anyway, who cares about three fifths of
five eighths of a poofteenth of a horsepower?????
(and flat tax is sound if it's on consumption not income..... OK I'll
shut up)
Peter Bennett
Sydney Australia
RV6 skinning fuselage
> I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair
> this weekend. One of the things that caught my eye was that the
> builder had wrapped all of the exhaust system, from the exhaust port
> down the stack to the bottom of the cowl including the cabin heat
> muff, with a heat wrap. He gave two reasons: 1) the tightly cowled
> Lancair needs all the heat protection it can get; and 2) maintaining
> the temperature of the exhaust gas in the pipe helps with
> horsepower. He says this is because exhaust gas slows as it cools,
> and that causes back pressure at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas
> to retain as much heat as possible until it hits the air under the
> airplane.
>
> Makes sense to me, but so does the flat tax so what do I know? Any
> of you engine types have comments?
>
> He says the wrap can be purchased from Spruce and he used it on his
> race cars. I asked if he was worried about not catching any cracks
> in the exhaust system because of the wrap. He's not but I think I
> would be.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
>m
>
>H
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Priming HS control horns |
Bill ,
Not to worry when you paint your elevator for real just make sure you paint
the control horn too.This will keep the air and water off it which is what
you want.keep up the good work and build on ...George & Becki Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rust47rg(at)one.net |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
>61.31 (h) endorsement not required for experimental
>
>JMP
>
This is true but if you tell your insurance co what do you think it will do
to your rates. And whats the big deal..... Several hours with a good CFI
and you might actually learn something to save your butt. I didn't need one
as I was grandfathered but I got one anyway from a local instructor that
primarily teachs aerobatics in a decathlon and had fun while I learned alot.
Rusty Gossard
N47RG RV-4 Flying
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Thomas N. Martin" <103212.65(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | Copy of: oil breather |
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Thomas N. Martin, 103212,65
DATE: 23/01/96 15:52
RE: Copy of: oil breather
I have a RV-4 with a I0-360. I would like to minimize the oil on the underside
of the plane. Larry Vetterman has suggested use an automotive type air valve and
dump the crankcase fumes into the exhaust. Sounds good and I know at least one
RVer who is doing this. My automotive race car part supplier says that I need to
have a simple(but ugly) oil separtor on top of the crankcase or we could suck
oil out. This doesn`t sound likely and I am looking for ideas and suggestions.
I
do not want to do anything that is likely to pressurize the crankcase.
Tom Martin
RV-4
St.Thomas Ontario
519-631-1369
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JDAviator(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Which Plane To Build? Now I Know |
>> >Now the question is - Which RV to build? No question here, I'll be
>> >waiting on the RV-8.
>>
>> >Back to lurking...
>>
>> >Mike Grubb
>> >Mobile, AL
>>
>>
>>Hi Mike,
>>
>>Welcome to the club!
>>
>>Steve Johnson
>>spjohnson(at)mmm.com
>>
>>Waiting on the RV-8
>>
>>
>>
>
>Mike & Steve,
>
>Must be more than a few of us out here !!
>
>Dick Slavens Also, waiting for RV-8.
The list is getting longer each day!
Jerry Allison
Waiting, Waiting, Waiting...for RV-8
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
I am finishing an RV-4 project and have used AS extensively for small
parts. I have found them to be competitive (slightly higher usually)
with what Van offers. I feel postage is a part of the building process
and don't worry about it to much. The difference is AS gets me what I
order in 2-3 days and I wait over a week for what I order from Van. I
think this is a function of my location more than anything since both
use UPS. I believe I could have Van's send things 2day express but this
would certainly be more.
I order excusively through the net, there is one person from each company
that I trust that has my CC number, I do not send that via the net.
Bottom line is I'm very happy with both companies. I returned things to
both with full refunds and believe both have fair prices. If you have
a legitimate problem I bet it can be resolved by Tom at Van's or Jerry
at AS, civility is the key here.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
Albuquerque, NM
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | meehan(at)coopext.cahe.wsu.edu (Don Meehan) |
| Subject: | AN ANSWER for Drilling a "replacement" wing skin |
Curt,
I did the same thing. Worried about it just like you, with same ideas for
the fix.
Final solution......order new piece from Van's, lay new skin over old one,
redrill with #40 bit through dimpled holes with both sheets overlaid on a
piece of plywood that you can cleco into. When done put skin on wing and do
any minor realignment, if any, by redrilling holes ( should not have any of
this at all is my guess, cuz I didn't). If you are worried about alignment
and the drill being a bit small you can get s bit larger drill bit that fits
the hole well and just get the point started and then finish with the #40.
The skin I screwed up was the inboard bottom .032. Came out looking great.
Only difference is that you caught the error before you riveted skin on... I
didn't. Sure got good at drilling out 3/32 rivets. Developed a new and
valuable skill by that error.
Don Meehan
meehan(at)wsu.edu
>Well, its goof-up time again. I accidentally trimmed my top outer wing
>skin on my 2nd wing flush with the rear spar (like the bottom skin is
>trimmed). I was obviously thinking "Hey, I've already built one wing -
>who needs to look at instructions?" Sigh.
>
>So, I've made a doubler plate to reattach the cut-off part of the
>trailing edge of the skin, but now I'm leaning towards just replacing the
>darn thing.
>
>Question: How does one drill a replacement skin? I assumed I would use
>the existing skin as a pattern and just tape the two skins together and
>start drilling, with the skins flat on my work table. The thing is, both
>the skin and the ribs are already dimpled, so the #41 drill bit is not a
>very tight fit in the existing holes. I am thinking that all my holes
>will be off-center enough to give me a rather poor fit and a wrinkly skin
>once its rivited on. Should I stick with my original plan and just splice
>the old skin back together? Or, can I get more acceptable results with a new
>skin?
>
>Thanks,
>Curt Reimer
>
>
Don Meehan - meehan(at)wsu.edu
Whidbey RV-ators
721 N. Palisades
Coupeville, WA 98239
( Fuselage - RV6A - moving on to Finish Kit.)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Edwards <CBE(at)synon.com> |
What is the formula?
----------
From: owner-rv-list[SMTP:owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 1996 9:02 AM
Subject: RV-List: Airplane Data
RVer's: I forgot some important stuff on the form: Empty weight, Rate of
climb, cruise speed. I would propose that the cruise figures be given
for
full throttle operation at 7,500 feet at full throttle, calibrated true
airspeed (not indicated) If the form transmitted OK, you could insert
these
items.
Speaking of true, calibrated airspeed. In the Feb. 95 issue of
Kitplanes,
page 49 there was an article on arriving at true, calibrated airspeed
using
Loran or GPS. It involved flying three different headings, 90 degrees
apart. Simply establish a heading and stabilize and log (I used GPS)
ground
speed. Turn 90 degrees & stabilize & log ground speed and turn another
90
degrees and do the same. The article gave a formula to plug the three
recorded groundspeeds into and then computed the true, calibrated ground
speed. I plugged the formula into a spreadsheet to make computing
faster.
This formula cancel outs the effects of any winds aloft. If you don't
have
this issue and are interested in the formula, let me know and I will post
later. Bob Skinner
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Piping air in shop. |
Randy,
>> I am going to try to muffle sound with a peg-board enclosure (compressors in
hangar). <<
Thanks for the informative post. I am very interested in finding out how your
sound-suppression works.
I will be building a workshop within a garage. It will be totally enclosed and
a separate structure from the garage. I don't know what material is better for
the walls (i.e. sheetrock, particle board, etc.) or the sound insulation
(fiberglass, foam, etc.). I hope to avoid most, if not all, rivet gun noise to
the outside (lest the homeowner's association smite me).
Any ideas anyone?
Rob.
Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | JAllen6526(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose or Tail drag. |
I selected the -6A. I determined that learning to fly a taildragger just
wasn't a skill I needed to acquire. I took my demonstration flight in a -6
and did not like the lack of visibility over the nose (I am 6'4") I also
determined that I dd not want to pay additional insurance premiums and felt
that the resale value (in the event Van's came out with a 4 seater) would be
higher for a tricycle.
I don't get the macho thing so I wasn't interested in sacrificing for it.
The tailwheel probably would improve my landing skills and allow for
marginally rougher field landings. In my flying, I am more inclined to
encounter crosswinds than rough fields.
John Allen
Skinning the fuselage.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data |
>From: one.net!rust47rg(at)matronics.com
>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:51:59 -0500
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Airplane data RV-4 N47RG
>Reply-to: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>In the spirit of Mr. Skinner's idea for data on flying RV's here's mine.
>
>Name: Rusty Gossard Cincinnati,
>
>Delurking in progress...
>
>Mr. Skinner, I believe you have struck upon an outstanding idea. As a -4
>builder, its great to see the options other people have used, and their
>results.
>
>For those lucky enough (no doubt thru hard work) to be able to post their
>data, please include your individual email. This would allow those of us
with questions
>on options you have chosen, not to clutter up "the list"
>
>cloaking device engaged
>
>mike hiscock
>don't stagnate, RVate
>
Mike: Thanks for the thumbs up. Even though I gave my E-mail address, I
would think that most dialog should be through the RV-list. If one person
has a question about an item, I'm sure that others might as well. By
directing inquires to the list, you would eliminate the same question being
posted to an individual's E-mail address and everyone could benifit from the
exchange of information. In other words, I wouldn't worry about cluttering
up the list. I enjoy reading most all of the mail and learn something every
day. Thanks, Matt Dralle. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Craig Moen" <moen.craig(at)a1.granpa.dco.mts.dec.com> |
App-Message-Id:
| Subject: | Polished Alum. under clearcoat? |
1
Msg-Class: ALL-IN-1 IOS Server for OpenVMS V3.1 BL121 (US) ENGLISH 17-JUN-1994
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Having read the notes on the beauty of polished alum. RV's and
other planes but the warning of massive work involved with
maintaining that shine I was wondering about how other
industries have addressed the problem.
My brass lamps are polished brass dipped in clear lacquer. The
hold their shine forever it seems.
A mountain bike I ride has a polished alum. frame dipped in
some protective coating. A year later it still looks like new.
Anyone have any comments/experience clearcoating a polished
alum. airframe.
Good idea....bad idea?
Regards,
Craig Moen
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Elevator deflection |
> I had the same problem, according to Van's the solution is a small
> notch in the FLANGE of the HS rear spar. DO NOT notch the tapered
> strips.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
This is normal. I sure wish Van's would just put it in their manual.
I'm sure it would save a lot of tech support calls to their
office. I know _I_ gave them a call about the very same thing.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
>
> 61.31 (h) endorsement not required for experimental
>
> JMP
>
Hmmm. I'm not so sure that's what it's saying. 61.31(g) calls
the tailwheel checkout an "endorsement". 61.31(h) says the
"rating limitations" of that section do not apply to experimentals.
It doesn't talk about _endorsements_. Could be another one of
those ambiguities that would only be decided (not in your favor I'd
bet) by an administrative law judge.
Either way, I sure hope no one's planning on going out there flying
their tailwheel homebuilt without getting a good thorough tailwheel
checkout, whether or not they get an "official" logbook signoff. <:-0
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions (fwd) |
I would not try to get the aileron gap fairings any closer that the
way Van has them designed. I found that one of my ailerons was rubbing
on the gap seal and it was due to the fact that the aileron hing
bracket was not drilled exactly in the center for the hing bolt.
I think the hole was also a little crooked. This was enough to
cause the aileron to rub at the full down position (I think).
I had to order another 4130 aileron hing bracket and redrill it.
So, my point is that there is not much clearance there and any
minor variations in building may be enough to cause a problem.
Therefore, do not try to make it any closer.
You may be able to use some form of rubber or something later to
provide a more airtight seal.
Herman
RV4, 7 hrs.
> From root Tue Jan 23 22:51:00 1996
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> From: aol.com!EBundy2620(at)matronics.com
> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:49:53 -0500
> Message-Id: <960123210102_125254686(at)mail06.mail.aol.com>
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Couple of Wing Questions
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> > Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
> >edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
> >the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
> >in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
>
> Good question. Someone else will probably have an answer. One little tidbit
> of generic information that I've learned (the hard way) over the years is
> that the designer does most things for a reason. Anytime we "improve"
> something in the plans we have to keep making changes down the line to
> accomodate them until we come to a point where we can't make things work
> properly anymore.
>
> Then the light comes on and we say "Oh..... now I see why it was supposed to
> be that way. Hello, Van's - I need a new 601, 602, 603, etc." I don't
> change anything anymore unless I know what the repercussions will be.
>
> Ed Bundy (seat backs)
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Piping air in shop. |
Haveing spent many years in R&R bands and haveing a studio in my garadge,
I can say without hesitation that weight is the best quality for sound
insulation. Sheet rock is the best for the money. Cover the inside of the
room with carpet if you want to have a real dead quite room. There are many
comercially available sound suppression foam products that cost lots of $$.
You can do almost as good with old carpet over sheet-rock. Go to a music
store that caters to the R&R music biz and get a book on the subject. It
will tell you everything you need to know.
Chris
>
> I will be building a workshop within a garage. It will be totally enclosed and
> a separate structure from the garage. I don't know what material is better for
> the walls (i.e. sheetrock, particle board, etc.) or the sound insulation
> (fiberglass, foam, etc.). I hope to avoid most, if not all, rivet gun noise
to
> the outside (lest the homeowner's association smite me).
>
> Any ideas anyone?
>
> Rob.
>
> Rob.
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE ) |
Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
in the box a little over a year old.
Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
number/builder relationship?
Thanks,
Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: tech support question |
>There seems to be some ambiguity as to the rivet spacing callouts for
>the rivets that attach the WD-603 to the 1 x 1 1/4 x 1/8 angle.
>Drawing 31 shows top and side views of the top weldement (WD-602) with
>1/2" and 3/4" spacing respectively where it attaches to the main
>longerons, but I can't find a specific callout for the WD-603 (bottom)
>weldement. What spacing should be used here?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6
>
Randall,
I have found that the plans usually depict the correct number of rivets to
be installed. For these areas I drilled one end hole about 1/4 - 3/8" from
the end of the longeron and the same from the end of the F684. I then used
my fan rivet spacer to achieve the right number of rivets, in this case 5 total.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Copy of: oil breather (fwd) |
I bought a small oil seperator that Aircraft Spruce sells.
It is just a small aluminum tank that bolts onto the firewall.
Connect the crankcase vent line into the inlet side and then
connect the outlet side to the vent line and run it down to
just above your exhaust pipe.
There is a oil return line at the bottom of the tank and this
needs a small hose to drain any collected oil back into the
engine. I tapped into my oilfiller tube and connected the
hose there but Jim Stugart told me there is a plug on the back
of the accessor case that can be used for such a purpose.
I have not verified that however.
Others have also made these themselves (Bob Brasher made several)
for some of the builders in this area. The tank is nothing complex
but just needs some expansion to slow down the air and let the
oil drop out so it can be drained back into the engine and not
on the belly.
Herman
> From root Wed Jan 24 08:26:01 1996
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: 24 Jan 96 07:51:11 EST
> From: "Thomas N. Martin" <compuserve.com!103212.65(at)matronics.com>
> To: all
> Subject: RV-List: Copy of: oil breather
> Message-Id: <960124125111_103212.65_IHF32-1(at)CompuServe.COM>
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
>
> From: Thomas N. Martin, 103212,65
> TO: all, Internet:RV-list(at)matronics.com
> DATE: 23/01/96 15:52
>
> RE: Copy of: oil breather
>
> I have a RV-4 with a I0-360. I would like to minimize the oil on the underside
> of the plane. Larry Vetterman has suggested use an automotive type air valve
and
> dump the crankcase fumes into the exhaust. Sounds good and I know at least one
> RVer who is doing this. My automotive race car part supplier says that I need
to
> have a simple(but ugly) oil separtor on top of the crankcase or we could suck
> oil out. This doesn`t sound likely and I am looking for ideas and suggestions.
I
> do not want to do anything that is likely to pressurize the crankcase.
>
> Tom Martin
> RV-4
> St.Thomas Ontario
> 519-631-1369
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 longerons |
>I am in the process of fitting my main longerons to the steel weldments on the
>firewall. It appears that the only way to get the longerons attached to the
>firewall is to have a rather noticable inward bow in them between the firewall
>and the F-604 bulkhead. My concern is the future installation of the foward
deck
>to this inward bowed area. Has anyone else had this problem? Van's said
"make it
>fit".
>
>Thanks,
>Stan Blanton
>75472.372(at)compuserve.com
>Jiggiing fuselage bulkheads and longerons
>
>
Stan,
The longerons in this area are bent in two directions as explained on page
8-4 of the manual. The first bent is straightforward as it is "sharp"
leading to a 2 1/4 inch displacement down. The second bend is tricky
because it is gradual. This should lead to a bow OUTWARD so the skins will
smoothly curve from F604 to F601. There is also a slight twist at the end
of the longeron needed to get a good flush fit to the weldements.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892
2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492
Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? 1 |
Sounds like a good idea to me! I'd probably try using clear coat from
Sherman Williams or somewhere (just don't spray the color). I'd clean
the AL with SW Ultra Clean or similar to get the wax off from the
polishing process first. Try it on a large sheet of scrap AL and
see what happens.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
Albuquerque, NM
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Craig Moen wrote:
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
> Having read the notes on the beauty of polished alum. RV's and
> other planes but the warning of massive work involved with
> maintaining that shine I was wondering about how other
> industries have addressed the problem.
>
> My brass lamps are polished brass dipped in clear lacquer. The
> hold their shine forever it seems.
>
> A mountain bike I ride has a polished alum. frame dipped in
> some protective coating. A year later it still looks like new.
>
> Anyone have any comments/experience clearcoating a polished
> alum. airframe.
>
> Good idea....bad idea?
>
> Regards,
>
> Craig Moen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "Dan Boudro" <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
App-Message-Id:
| Subject: | Re: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? 1 |
Sounds like a good idea to me! I'd probably try using clear coat from
Sherman Williams or somewhere (just don't spray the color). I'd clean
the AL with SW Ultra Clean or similar to get the wax off from the
polishing process first. Try it on a large sheet of scrap AL and
see what happens.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
Albuquerque, NM
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Craig Moen wrote:
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
> Having read the notes on the beauty of polished alum. RV's and
> other planes but the warning of massive work involved with
> maintaining that shine I was wondering about how other
> industries have addressed the problem.
>
> My brass lamps are polished brass dipped in clear lacquer. The
> hold their shine forever it seems.
>
> A mountain bike I ride has a polished alum. frame dipped in
> some protective coating. A year later it still looks like new.
>
> Anyone have any comments/experience clearcoating a polished
> alum. airframe.
>
> Good idea....bad idea?
>
> Regards,
>
> Craig Moen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? |
1
You may have a problem with adhesion. Most of the aluminum polish that I
have used leaves a oil-like protective coat. Also, most of the clear-coat
paints are very picky about what they are applied over. If you don't use the
prescribed method of prep, you will get crazing and peeling in a few years.
I have used clear lacquer over metal and it seems to work just fine. If
you are going to use it, you better buy it soon. The EPA is on a witch hunt
for high VOC paints like lacquer. Here in my area of California it's now
a controlled substance. The weird thing is that I can still buy the thinner
locally. Go figure????
Chris
>
> Having read the notes on the beauty of polished alum. RV's and
> other planes but the warning of massive work involved with
> maintaining that shine I was wondering about how other
> industries have addressed the problem.
>
> My brass lamps are polished brass dipped in clear lacquer. The
> hold their shine forever it seems.
>
> A mountain bike I ride has a polished alum. frame dipped in
> some protective coating. A year later it still looks like new.
>
> Anyone have any comments/experience clearcoating a polished
> alum. airframe.
>
> Good idea....bad idea?
>
> Regards,
>
> Craig Moen
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV-6 longerons |
> ... It appears that the only way to get the longerons attached to the
> firewall is to have a rather noticable inward bow in them between the firewall
> and the F-604 bulkhead. My concern is the future installation of the foward deck
> to this inward bowed area. Has anyone else had this problem? Van's said "make
it
> fit".
>
> Thanks,
> Stan Blanton
I'm at exactly the same point -- I just drilled my longerons to the
weldments and jigged up the F-604 bulkhead. This is fussy work but FUN
-- after all this time it's finally starting to look like an AIRPLANE!
(Well to me anyway.) I was lucky enough that my weldments are aligned
pretty much right where they should be. According to Frank Justice's
instructions, you should modify the weldments (by grinding or whatever)
as necessary to ensure the longerons don't have to bend to fit. It
seems to me though that in your case you could "spread" the ears of the
weldment a bit and clamp your longeron on that way and it would be
straight. Not so? Of course you might have to be a little more careful
about edge distance in that case, but the min. edge distances for steel
are smaller than for aluminum so you have some leeway there (I don't
recall how much though).
Another consideration is the twist from the F-604 to the firewall. Did
you put this twist in or did you just clamp it and let the clamping
make the twist for you? I used hand seamers to put a gradual twist
in before I clamped it to the weldment. If you don't put the twist in
the preload could be causing it to bow.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez) |
>
>Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
>builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
>in the box a little over a year old.
>Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
>number/builder relationship?
>Thanks,
>Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
>ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
Ed,
I recently took over a project and called the factory
to see what the story is. They told me that I should send them
a signed statement from the original purchaser stating that I
was the new owner. Once that is done the serial number transfers
to me. Then I will be able to buy an engine and/or prop from
Van's just as if I had started the kit.
Cheryl Sanchez
csanchez(at)world.std.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
| From: | "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com> |
Randall brings up a good question:
> Hmmm. I'm not so sure that's what it's saying. 61.31(g) calls
> the tailwheel checkout an "endorsement". 61.31(h) says the
> "rating limitations" of that section do not apply to experimentals.
Yes this is a good question--is it a "rating limitation" that requires
a pilot to have such endorsements.
The FAA has not been consistent on this issue. Many years ago, I
subscribed to "Hawk Talk", the homebuilt seaplane newsletter for the
Sea Hawker amphib. The question came up regarding land and sea ratings
with the FAA. (This is clearly a rating rather than endorsement issue.)
As told in the newsletter, the FAA first said no, the pilot does not
need a seaplane rating to fly the experimental Sea Hawker off of water.
Then they changed their minds.
Depending on the FSDO, (or inspector) your answers may vary.
The tailwheel endorsment question recently came up in the Jepp CFI
renewal program. The Jepp course said the pilot doesn't need an
endorsement for an experimental.
I know Jepp researches their material well but I wouldn't take the chance.
At least get some tailwheel instruction or the FEDs will nail you for
91.13 "Careless and reckless operation" if you have an incident or
accident.
Cal
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane Data |
>
>What is the formula?
>Speaking of true, calibrated airspeed. In the Feb. 95 issue of Kitplanes,
>page 49 there was an article on arriving at true, calibrated airspeed using
>Loran or GPS.
The formula is: V=squareroot of(V1 squared + V2 squared + V3 squared + V1
squared x V3 squared/V2 squared)/2
Example: You can track any course as long as two are 180 degrees from each
other and the other course is perpendicular. I like using GPS, seems to
work better than loran. I usually track 0 / 90 / 180 (sun is in west) or
180 / 270 / 0 (sun in east). This formula eleminates any effect of wind
component.
V1 heading of 0 degrees = 160 groundspeed
V2 heading of 90 degrees = 163 groundspeed
V3 heading of 180 degrees = 125 groundspeed
Your answer should be 144.
I wrote a spreadsheet formula and just log the three speeds while
airborne. I also log: Date, Temp, Altitude, (computed Density alt.), RPM's,
Maniflod pressure, (compute percent power), log where mixture control is
(best power, leaned to peak, etc.), Indicated Airspeed, then the computed
results and the last column shows Airspeed error (difference between
computed and indicated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | DerFlieger(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce |
Boudro) writes:
> am finishing an RV-4 project and have used AS extensively for small
>parts. I have found them to be competitive (slightly higher usually)
>wi
I have ordered from Spruce since 1980, through 2 airplane building projects,
and can say that yes, they do have occasional problems, just as any other
supplier. You cannot please everyone all of the time. I have ALWAYS been
satisfied in the end with every purchase I have made from them, and yes,
civility is the operative word in dealing with them (any anyone for that
matter).
They try very hard, and mostly provide excellent service for many things in
one place. AND, they don't have just 1 option on many of their items. They
have a fax address and I am told they are responsive to those inputs.
I understand the need to point out "best places for best parts" but fail to
see why some continue to bash Spruce across the board. I don't know who
could replace them. Just MHO.
Jim Stugart
DerFlieger(at)aol.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com> |
The serial number should come with the kit. If this is the kit offered on
the list a few days ago, you should get all of the kit, plans, manual etc.
Since he only has a license to build one plane, he can not sell that license
more than one time. Call Van's (503)647-5117
Chris
>
> Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
> builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
> in the box a little over a year old.
> Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
> number/builder relationship?
> Thanks,
> Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov> |
Ed,
Van has no problem with buying someone else's kit. You should contact
the factory and reregister the serial number as yours.
Becki Orndorff
>Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
>builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
>in the box a little over a year old.
>Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
>number/builder relationship?
>Thanks,
>Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
>ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
>
Becki Orndorff
NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com> |
Why don't you ask Van's (Tom) directly? 76455.1602(at)compuserve.com
I bet he says go for it! Let him know and post his response please.
Dan Boudro
RV-4 N9167Z
Albuquerque, NM
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Cheryl Sanchez wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
> >builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
> >in the box a little over a year old.
> >Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
> >number/builder relationship?
> >Thanks,
> >Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
> >ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
> >
>
> Ed,
>
> I recently took over a project and called the factory
> to see what the story is. They told me that I should send them
> a signed statement from the original purchaser stating that I
> was the new owner. Once that is done the serial number transfers
> to me. Then I will be able to buy an engine and/or prop from
> Van's just as if I had started the kit.
>
> Cheryl Sanchez
> csanchez(at)world.std.com
>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
I don't think there is any problem here. It is done all the time.
What Van's licences is the right to build one airplane from the
set of plans. So, just be sure that they transfer the set of plans
to you.
The proper procedure is to have the seller sign (have it notarized)
a document that he is transfering the right for that serial number
to you. Then send a copy of this to Van's and tell them you are
the proud owner so they can update their records.
If the plans are out of date, he will get you a new up to date
set for a one time fee of $50.00.
Herman
> From root Wed Jan 24 14:12:08 1996
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:05:27 -0800
> Message-Id: <199601241805.KAA02053(at)ix7.ix.netcom.com>
> From: ix.netcom.com!ecole(at)matronics.com (EDWARD COLE )
> Subject: RV-List: Kit Parts
> To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
> builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
> in the box a little over a year old.
> Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
> number/builder relationship?
> Thanks,
> Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Polished Alum. under clearcoat? |
1 (fwd)
Just DO NOT polish with any polsh that has silicone in it.
Silicone will cause fish-eye's and is hard to ever get it all off.
The problem is that many metal polishes have silicone in them.
Several vendors make clear coat that can be used for this purpose.
The only problem is to make sure it does not 'yellow' over time.
Herman
> From root Wed Jan 24 12:37:21 1996
> Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 16:53:33 -0500
> From: "Craig Moen" <a1.granpa.dco.mts.dec.com!moen.craig(at)matronics.com>
> Message-Id: <65956142106991/9163508@GRANPA>
> App-Message-Id:
> To: "rv-list(at)matronics.com"(at)internet.mts.dec.com
> Subject: RV-List: Polished Alum. under clearcoat?
1
> Msg-Class: ALL-IN-1 IOS Server for OpenVMS V3.1 BL121 (US) ENGLISH 17-JUN-1994
> Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com
> Precedence: junk
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
> Having read the notes on the beauty of polished alum. RV's and
> other planes but the warning of massive work involved with
> maintaining that shine I was wondering about how other
> industries have addressed the problem.
>
> My brass lamps are polished brass dipped in clear lacquer. The
> hold their shine forever it seems.
>
> A mountain bike I ride has a polished alum. frame dipped in
> some protective coating. A year later it still looks like new.
>
> Anyone have any comments/experience clearcoating a polished
> alum. airframe.
>
> Good idea....bad idea?
>
> Regards,
>
> Craig Moen
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------
*NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my
own and are independent of my employer.
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis
phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831
MS: 9530 fax: 512-838-1801
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Couple of Wing Questions (fwd) |
> > Also, regarding the fit between the aileron gap fairing and the leading
> >edge of the aileron, is there a problem with closing the fit closer than
> >the plans show as long as no contact occurs or is there a designed airflow
> >in this area that would be restricted by a close fit.
If I recall there was an article on this very subject by Van, The man himself!
I believe that it was in an old RVator - I'll look it up if I can find it, in an
article about speeds and using gap seals etc. If I remember, he did not like
what gap seals did to the aileron effectiveness and feel, and I would think that
eliminating the "slot" by getting a closer fit would do the same thing - I sure
ain't no aerodynamicist(SP??) but it seems that that space is there for a reason
!!
Rob Lee - STILL!!! on fairings and paint - RV6A s/n 22626 -N517RL (reserved)
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander) |
| Subject: | Re: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? |
Wannabe polishers (but without the work),
To promote adhesion, Stits-Polyfiber (and others I'm sure) sell a
clear alodine. I believe it is their E-2300 Conversion Coating. I bought
some by mistake and found it very hard to use because it does not have the
gold dye that is in the regular Alodyne 1201, but this is what you want for
external natural aluminum surfaces. I believe their process would be
Alkaline wash, Clear Conversion Coating and clear Aerothane -- but call
them for specific guidance of course ... :^)
They (Stits-Polyfiber) did not get sold as part of the Alexander
Aeroplane ==> Aircraft Spruce East deal.
I believe Randolph also has an equivalent process, call them at
(201)438-3700 for info.
In this case, if it's going on an aircraft, use aircraft materials
-- the auto paint guys don't have too much experience in clear coating
aluminium. --- I don't know if they clear coated the stainless on the
DeLorean though, but the last one I saw looked quite "ratty" ... :^)
... Gil Alexander ... will be happy with a basic white paint job
gil(at)rassp.hac.com
> You may have a problem with adhesion. Most of the aluminum polish that I
>have used leaves a oil-like protective coat. Also, most of the clear-coat
>paints are very picky about what they are applied over. If you don't use the
>prescribed method of prep, you will get crazing and peeling in a few years.
>I have used clear lacquer over metal and it seems to work just fine. If
>you are going to use it, you better buy it soon. The EPA is on a witch hunt
>for high VOC paints like lacquer. Here in my area of California it's now
>a controlled substance. The weird thing is that I can still buy the thinner
>locally. Go figure????
>
> Chris
>
>
>>
>> Having read the notes on the beauty of polished alum. RV's and
>> other planes but the warning of massive work involved with
>> maintaining that shine I was wondering about how other
>> industries have addressed the problem.
>>
>> My brass lamps are polished brass dipped in clear lacquer. The
>> hold their shine forever it seems.
>>
>> A mountain bike I ride has a polished alum. frame dipped in
>> some protective coating. A year later it still looks like new.
>>
>> Anyone have any comments/experience clearcoating a polished
>> alum. airframe.
>>
>> Good idea....bad idea?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Craig Moen
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
I THINK WE NEED TO REMEMBER THE FAA IS A GOVERNMENT AGENCY, LIKE THE IRS. GRAY
AREA IS PREVALENT WITH BOTH AND WILL/CAN BE USED TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.
Randall brings up a good question:
> Hmmm. I'm not so sure that's what it's saying. 61.31(g) calls
> the tailwheel checkout an "endorsement". 61.31(h) says the
> "rating limitations" of that section do not apply to experimentals.
Yes this is a good question--is it a "rating limitation" that requires
a pilot to have such endorsements.
The FAA has not been consistent on this issue. Many years ago, I
subscribed to "Hawk Talk", the homebuilt seaplane newsletter for the
Sea Hawker amphib. The question came up regarding land and sea ratings
with the FAA. (This is clearly a rating rather than endorsement issue.)
As told in the newsletter, the FAA first said no, the pilot does not
need a seaplane rating to fly the experimental Sea Hawker off of water.
Then they changed their minds.
Depending on the FSDO, (or inspector) your answers may vary.
The tailwheel endorsment question recently came up in the Jepp CFI
renewal program. The Jepp course said the pilot doesn't need an
endorsement for an experimental.
I know Jepp researches their material well but I wouldn't take the chance.
At least get some tailwheel instruction or the FEDs will nail you for
91.13 "Careless and reckless operation" if you have an incident or
accident.
Cal
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Jan 24, 96 09:40:46 am
From: "Earl Brabandt" <ichips.intel.com!cwbraban(at)matronics.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:39:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: RV-List: Nose vs. Tail
f.intel.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA07011 for | Date: | Jan 24, 1996 |
| From: | Phil Arter <arter(at)acd.acd.ucar.edu> |
| Subject: | lacquer over aluminum |
Craig
Using lacquer to clearcoat your RV probably will not work because of the
wide range of temperatures it will be exposed to between sitting on the ramp
at 130 F to well below zero at altitude. The lacquer becomes very brittle
and will craze and start flaking off before too long. Aluminum just has too
high a coefficent of expansion. Of course if you want to keep it parked in
your living room...
Phil Arter
arter(at)ncar.ucar.edu
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: RV List: How do you make alodine work |
Bob Busick asked about alodyning large parts.
I get similar results. Dipping is the most uniform way -- I have some
pretty big tubs and if I can get the part in there and slosh it on fast
it seems to work a lot better. I have a couple of gallons and just dump
it all in a big tub, and try to recover most of it, when I'm done and
not let it get diluted with overspray from the rinsing or anything. I
also bought a piece of 4"pvc and capped one end to do the long pieces
with. Also I've found I don't need to let it "dwell" as long when I
dip. Usually it only takes a minute before you start getting the chalky
residue. This will change with the age of the part however. If you have
had your kit for a year or two before treating them they tend to be age
hardened and take a longer amount of dwell.
As far as uneven/different coloring on the large pieces: This happens
to me too, but after trying several different ways to alleviate it I
just I don't worry about it much. I guess the stuff "activates" on
contact and loses potency as it spreads across the material or
something. Now I just slop it on and get it to cover the whole surface
as quickly as possible, re-wet for a couple of minutes, and rinse it
off. I figure just doing it at all is overkill so what the heck, I'll
live with the splotchy appearance, as it doesn't seem to CAUSE any problems.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com> |
Text item:
I HAVE DONE THIS WITH AN RV6 KIT I BOUGHT. VAN'S WILL TRANSFER THE SERIAL
NUMBER TO YOU. THEY MAY ALSO ASK YOU TO SIGN A NEW AGREEMENT THAT YOU WILL
ONLY BUILD THAT ONE AIRPLANE. THEY ARE VERY EASY TO DO BUSINESS WITH SO GO FOR
IT. CHRIS IS CORRECT THOUGH, GET ALL THE DOCUMENTATION INCLUDING THE ORIGINAL,
NOTARIZED AGREEMENT THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER SIGNED. VAN'S CAN ALSO TELL YOU WHAT
ALL SHOULD BE THERE FROM WHAT HAS BEEN SOLD TO THAT LICENSE.
The serial number should come with the kit. If this is the kit offered on
the list a few days ago, you should get all of the kit, plans, manual etc.
Since he only has a license to build one plane, he can not sell that license
more than one time. Call Van's (503)647-5117
Chris
>
> Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
> builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
> in the box a little over a year old.
> Will he still support you or does this screw up the serial
> number/builder relationship?
> Thanks,
> Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage
> ecole(at)ix.netcom.com
>
Text item: External Message Header
The following mail header is for administrative use
and may be ignored unless there are problems.
***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.
Subject: Re: RV-List: Kit Parts
From: Chris Ruble <cisco.com!cruble(at)matronics.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:09:42 -0800
intel.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA10228 for | Date: | Jan 24, 1996 |
| From: | finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen ) |
| Subject: | Re: Mazda powered RV-4 |
I don't think Tracy is subscribing to this list yet. Suggest you send
your question to the below address.
Finn
You wrote:
>what cruise power does this represent ? How does it compare in terms
of
>fuel consumption and running costs ?
>
>What was your inital cost ? Is this chepaer than the 160 Lycoming ?
>
>>E-mail me at 71175.606(at)compuserve.com
>>Is there a way for me to directly access rv-list from compuserve?
>>
>>Regards to all, Tracy Crook
>
________________________________________________________________________________
My name is Dan Shades and I work as an engineering technician for a
university research facility. I am currently building an RV-4 and I am
finishing up the tail. I am trying to find a wing kit to buy from someone
that has decided not to continue with thier project (preferably one that has
had little work done on it). I am high on ambition and low on money....
I heard about the RV-list from someone else on the net that answered one of
my questions on homebuilt.com and was nice enough to tell me how to subscribe.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Chris Edwards <CBE(at)synon.com> |
Would you send me the spreadsheet formulas? (Or even the spreadsheet!)
To Chris Edwards at 102107.757(at)compuserve.com, a wanna be RV-8tor.
Thanks for this formula!
----------
From: owner-rv-list[SMTP:owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 1996 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: Airplane Data
>
>What is the formula?
>Speaking of true, calibrated airspeed. In the Feb. 95 issue of
Kitplanes,
>page 49 there was an article on arriving at true, calibrated airspeed
using
>Loran or GPS.
The formula is: V=squareroot of(V1 squared + V2 squared + V3 squared + V1
squared x V3 squared/V2 squared)/2
Example: You can track any course as long as two are 180 degrees from
each
other and the other course is perpendicular. I like using GPS, seems to
work better than loran. I usually track 0 / 90 / 180 (sun is in west) or
180 / 270 / 0 (sun in east). This formula eleminates any effect of wind
component.
V1 heading of 0 degrees = 160 groundspeed
V2 heading of 90 degrees = 163 groundspeed
V3 heading of 180 degrees = 125 groundspeed
Your answer should be 144.
I wrote a spreadsheet formula and just log the three speeds while
airborne. I also log: Date, Temp, Altitude, (computed Density alt.),
RPM's,
Maniflod pressure, (compute percent power), log where mixture control is
(best power, leaned to peak, etc.), Indicated Airspeed, then the computed
results and the last column shows Airspeed error (difference between
computed and indicated.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | barrow(at)zk3.dec.com |
| Subject: | Re: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? 1 (fwd) |
<9601242110.AA12996(at)dierks.austin.ibm.com>
Many motorcycles do this. It looks fine at first, but ages badly.
Particularly, spots that take abuse from random impacts like
pebbles or bugs. It seems it would be hard to patch this coat, also.
Do bare aluminum planes really need to be polished? I suppose the
look is supposed to emulate WWII planes - but i don't imagine their
crews spent all their time polishing the planes. I really would have
to vote for flying instead of polishing, equipment should look used.
When i raced formula cars, it wasn't the crews who spent their time
polishing i worried about, but these days looks seem to count for
so much...
I don't mean equipment should be filthy, regular cleaning is a good
way to monitor safety. Physically carefully examining components
is crucial to safety - i once found the clamp holding my 172 nose
gear falling off. But if your outlook is just to make a part look
pretty, you may or may not be observing it from a safety point of
view. Kind of like, some car nuts like to see all the fasteners
on a part oriented the same way ( screw head slots ), but seems to
me fasteners should be torqued correctly, not to just line up...
Marcus Barrow
barrow(at)zk3.dec.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "E. Amadio" <e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com> |
| Subject: | Copy of: oil breather (fwd) |
------ =_NextPart_000_01BAEA92.721F7920
TOM: Since you are just down the road from me (Niagara Falls Ont.) I am =
curious as to how this oil separator will collect water.
Will it be separate from the oil and if so how is this dumped =
overboard?
My major concern is that this water oil will freeze ,given the temps =
common to this part of the continent ,and possibly plug the crankcase =
vent cicuit, thereby pressurizing the crankcase.
Having expierienced a frozen vent line several years ago on my =
continental powered C-170 and blowing out the front crankshaft seal I =
feel that this is not a frivolous concern.
When you start seeing oil on the windshield at night it gets your =
attention in a hurry!!
This bears serious consideration.
ERNIE AMADIO
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson) |
| Subject: | Re: Introduction |
>
> One annoying thing I have experienced while setting the 1/8" rivets is that a
> pucker will sometimes occur in the material of the part exposed to the shop
> head.
[snip!]
> A
> typical example would be riveting the nose ribs to the spar web on the wing,
> where the shop head is on the rib flange.
The rule is to put the shop head against the thicker material. Also in
cases like the one you're talking about, putting the shop head on the
side that's farther from an edge seems to help. I.e. put the factory
head on the RIB side, and the shop head on the spar side. This may not
be as easy to buck but it's all you can do, other than making sure the
part is clecoed and/or clamped as close to the hole as possible.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this? Is it something to be concerned about (I hope
> not!)?
Yeah I have but if I'm in a situation where the shop head has to be on
the thin side, well then I just do it and don't worry about it. All I
can do is just use the best practices I know how, and leave it at
that. I don't think I'd worry about the ones you've already done the
other way on your wings.
I think it says something about this in the manual, but not until somewhere
in the middle of the wing section. I'm sure there are a lot of RV empennages
out there with shop heads on the thin side (mine included <:-0 )
Randall Henderson
RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | dierks(at)austin.ibm.com |
| Subject: | Re: old RV3 kit (aka replacement skin..) |
Finn, I see you have an old RV-3 kit.
I hope you are aware of the mods to beef up the rear spar attach
point on the RV3's. While you have the skin off this would be
the time to make that change.
Herman
>
> I've just an old RV-3 kit (#488 begin in '78/'79). Skin has been cut
> too short several places and I'm planning on drilling out the rivets an
> putting on new skins where needed. I'm real concerned about these 1/8"
> rivets with smaller heads. Are you _sure_ they provide the same
> structual strenght as the rivets with "standard" (countersunk) heads.
> Van does not recommend countersinking material under a certain
> thickness because it reduces the area under the head of the rivet. So,
> along the same line of reasoning - you'll be getting a smaller area of
> material under rivets with sub-standard heads.
>
> Finn Lassen
>
>
>
Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas
mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward) |
| Subject: | Re: RV List: How do you make alodine work |
>Bob Busick asked about alodyning large parts.
>
>As far as uneven/different coloring on the large pieces: This happens
>to me too, but after trying several different ways to alleviate it I
Months back someone mentioned that they alodyned their parts wet right
after rinsing the acid wash off. A few of us thought that that wasn't
quite right since the alodyne would be diluted, and we were taught that we
should alodyne the parts dry. Well..., I tried the wet approach after
reading the posting and it really worked well; nice even application with a
lot less alodyne (using a spray bottle). There is something about the
surface tension of the water that allows the alodyne to spread out quickly
and evenly. I didn't learn about this until I was on my fuse and every
time I do it now I aways think about all the time I waited for all those
parts to dry. I highly recommend you try this if you haven't yet. I found
that it cut my acid wash-alodyning time in half and the alodyne itself is
nice and even, no more blue splotches.
-- Rich RV4
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com> |
Hello,
I've just found out about the rv-list and wanted to bore you all with a short
introduction and a question.
I live in Connecticut and keep current by occasionally flying a Piper Seneca II
(about 150 hrs a year) typically on business trips. My wife and I both miss
flying for the fun of it, and since flying the Seneca is like driving a bus, we
can't wait until our RV is flying (I almost said *done* and then realized that
you're never really "done").
My project is an RV-6 whose tail feathers and wings are finished except for the
*dreaded* fiberglass, and the fuselage skeleton is pretty well underway. I
also wrestled with the -6/-6A decision and vacillated back and forth for quite
some time before settling on the -6. I must admit I think I let emotions have
a
disproportionate affect on the decision since looks had a lot to do with it.
Anyway, if it turns out that I think I made the wrong decision when I'm done,
what the heck - I'll just build a -6A!
One annoying thing I have experienced while setting the 1/8" rivets is that a
pucker will sometimes occur in the material of the part exposed to the shop
head. I have checked the fit of the parts and the final dimensions of the
driven rivet, and have not been able to determine exactly what causes this -
although I suspect it has to do with the compressive forces of the rivet
affecting the relatively soft material of the parts being riveted together. A
typical example would be riveting the nose ribs to the spar web on the wing,
where the shop head is on the rib flange.
Has anyone else experienced this? Is it something to be concerned about (I hope
not!)?
By the way, if anyone out there is feeling gracious and can offer a ride in a
finished RV-6 or -6A, I would certainly appreciate a chance to see what an RV is
like in the air, since I already have plenty of exposure to what they are like
on the ground during construction.....
Happy building/flying.
Bruce Stobbe
70743.2727 @compuserve.com
Winsted, CT
PS: I sent a similar message earlier but had problems with e-mail so I don't
know whether it made it to the list or not. Forgive me if it did and this turns
out to be a duplicate.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | jperri(at)interserv.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose vs. Tail |
Agree.. I had a tail wheel endorsement and was a CFI. But before I flew my RV-6
I took 3 hours in a Maul. Worked out good. Haven't done anything stupid on
landing or takeoff yet.
JMP RV-6 370 HR
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | BPattonsoa(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce |
I have been buying from A.Spruce since 1977. Can't think of a time when I
had a problem with anything they sold. Some things were not appropriate for
my application (scratch building is something I wouldn't recommend, or try
doing again.), but they would take things back.
I generally call on the phone in the A.M., and order, get told if the
material is in in stock or not, and what the price is (a bad thing, generally
higher than the latest catalog). Where I live now, delivery is within 2
days UPS. Can't argue with that
Bruce Patton
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Copy of: oil breather (fwd) |
>Since you are just down the road from me (Niagara Falls Ont.) I am curious as
to how
>this oil separator will collect water.
> Will it be separate from the oil and if so how is this dumped overboard?
> My major concern is that this water oil will freeze ,given the temps common to
this
>part of the continent ,and possibly plug the crankcase vent cicuit, thereby
>pressurizing the crankcase.
For info, I also do not want to get oil/associated crap on the bottom of my baby!
I made
a separator similar to the homebrewed one in Tony B's Engines book, using the body
of an
old touch up spray gun as the separator case. (enough of the "skinflint" comments
allready!) I've not yet tried it out but the tech councellor thinks it will be
OK.
I also did not want to return the wet, sludgy oil that will be separated out from
the vented vapor back to the engine. So, I mounted a Lightweight, one quart spun
aluminum bottle (with a vent hole drilled and a pipe connect fitting in the cap)
to the
firewall beneath the separator. This connects to the separator via a 1/4" tube,
so that
the bottle will catch the oil/sludge/water, and I will empty it whenever I open
the top
cowl. The vapor comes out the bottom through a 3/4" hose to overboard just over
the
exhaust pipes.
I suppose a side benefit of the arrangement is that it should prevent crankcase
overpressurization too!!, 'cos you know that that frozen water/oil mix problem
is also a
real bugger here in south Texas ! :) (large grin)
Keep buildin' 'em straight! -
Regards, Rob (get off the computer and finish that 6A) Lee
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | waiting on the -8 |
IMHO, there is a cure for this waiting kitted by that fella in Bakersfield...
Check six!
Mark
________________________________________________________________________________
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data N63TX |
from Marvin Soward...N63TX(at)aol.com
Model: RV-6A
DATE FINISHED: 2/91, 1st flew 5/91
TOTAL TIME: 602 HOURS (AS OF 1/24/96)
ENGINE: Lycoming 0-320 0-320-D1A (160 HP new from Van's)
Prop: Warnke
CANOPY: tilt up with struts
STARTER: B & C
ALTERNATOR: Pelican 60 AMP
EXHAUST: Tolle SS
FLAPS: Electric
BRAKES: pilot side only No parking TIRE PRESSURE: 32 lbs
PANEL: Day vfr, RC Allen Elec Att Gyro, Northstar GPS/LORAN,
hooked to Navaid Device Wing Leveler, Nav/com Narco 12E, Com Bendix/King 97A,
GEM Insight CHT/EGT, Braal Elec Tach, Mechanical Tach, Stewart/
Warner engine Guages, PM 1000 INTERCOM, Manifold Press,
True airspeed indicator, Narco AT 150 Transponder, Davtron 3 clock,
Davtron: OAT (F & C) P alt, D alt, Volt, Pointer ELT, TELEX headset
with Oregon Aero ear seals, top & mike muff...plugs for CD player input
and output for SHARP 8 mm video recorder on audio.....300 watt electric
heater (nice for pilot side) & Rick Robbins exhaust Muff Heater for 2nd
seat, LR-2 Voltage Regulator, SEATS by DJ LAURITSEN with temperfoam.
(can go up to 7 1/2 hours in one day with no problem on the buttocks).
Landoll "prop balancer" and Hobbs Meter, Hamilton Vertical Card compass
and whiskey compass.
Plan 141 KTS for trips, which seems to work. Burn 8 gallons per hour.
Problems: have had both fuel tanks off, Re-ProSealed around area
closest to fuselage, no leaks now. Left Mag gave out at 8o hrs,
replaced under warranty by Lyccoming. Ole heavy starter didn't work
well at 200 hrs, replaced with litewate. TOLLE exhaust system working
great, had to replace exhaust gaskets at 100 hrs. This is supported by
angles down from accessory case, and pipes joined at rear with steel
cross member.
Mineral oil 1st 16 hrs then to Mobil AV1 for next 200 hrs. (Had good
svs in cars with Mobile one). Lower right plugs kept fouling after 10 hrs.
Went to FINE WIRE plugs ($38 per), used TCP, leaned, leaned, hard
alla time. ..after Mobil/Continental fiasco, changed to AERO SHELL 100,
live in Austin,Tx so can use yr round. Now check plugs after 50 hrs
and super clean....OIL MUST PLAY ROLE IN HOW CLEAN THE PLUGS IS.
On 1st flite, builder/owner/pilot (less than 100 total hrs), tilt up canopy,
came UNDONE!!! Canopy latch, safety latch, all didn't function!!!!
Canopy was Up and Down with each second. Unable to latch.
Ket the "fly the airplane, fly the airplane" in mind, landed, latched and
flew 15 minutes on 2nd flight. Ain't happened since, but did re-work
safety mechanism at top.
Third brass (tractor type) fuel valve from VAN's got impossible to turn.
Spent $120 and got a good one from Wicks.
Fastener at front of cowling behind prop failed several times. Finally went
to 1/8 al sheet, 3 screws on bottom cowl and 2 on top cowl with nut plate.
Today noticed one screw missing, so am replacing all four nutplates.
Fly every day I can and think about it when I can't. Company asked me
to not show up anymore since 7/95 and haven't missed working since.
If you're reading this and not building; you ought be ashamed, go get to
work, get done, and "COME FLY WITH ME!!!"
Marvin.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> |
| Subject: | Copy of: oil breather (fwd) |
>TOM: Since you are just down the road from me (Niagara Falls Ont.) I am
curious as to how this oil separator will collect water.
> Will it be separate from the oil and if so how is this dumped overboard?
>
> My major concern is that this water oil will freeze ,given the temps
common to this part of the continent ,and possibly plug the crankcase vent
cicuit, thereby pressurizing the crankcase.
>
On most (some?) factory airplanes there is a bleed hole punched in the
aluminum tube that goes from the separator to the cowl outlet. There is a
name for this "breather hole" , can't think of it now. Look at a factory
installation. It was suggested that the exit air from the separator be
dumped onto an exhaust pipe and I think this is a good idea. Most people
use hose from the separator to a length of aluminum tube. I have my exit
tube located about 1/4 - 3/8" from the exhaust pipe clamping the end to the
engine mount with rubber adel clamps. Bob Skinner RV-6
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | re: piping air in shop... |
Randall,
>> If you use sheetrock and normal insulation you should be fine. There will be
some muffled sound escaping but I've never had a problem, and my neighbor's
bedroom window is approx. 30 feet from my garage door, which is NOT insulated.
<<
This is good, real world, news...thanks! I have never even held a rivet gun or
know how loud they are...have only heard them on the Orndorf (sp?) videos. The
second weekend of Feb. I will have first hand experience, as I am taking the
Alexander Aeroplane sheet metal course.
Regarding sheetrock, I agree with that choice. I know about formaldehyde, the
smell , and possible medical implications...the house is of new construction so
formaldehyde-free hardwood flooring and carpeting is going in.
>> ...no matter how much you have, you'll end up wishing you had
more! <<
Now that's a true statement!
>> Why are you building a shop within a garage? Is it a parking garage or what?
I hope you don't end up limiting your space -- <<
No, its an attached garage. The houses are arranged in a "courtyard"
manner...letsee...how do I describe this...a bunch of lollipops off a main
street, each having eight houses around it...geezzzz...it's a California
too-many-people kinda thing). So, my neighbors can not only see whats in the
garage everytime I open it but hear it as well.
There's no parking within each courtyard, so being able to pull into the garage
is important. I think a seperate structure within the garage would allow me to
pull my truck in, hide the project, and deaden the sound all at once.
The workshop will be about 9' x 17'. Is that big enough? The extra bedroom
will be storing finished components . When final assy. comes along I will
knock down the workshop and park on the street till completion.
Any other great suggestions, ideas, etc. very welcome.
Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com> |
| Subject: | RE: Piping air in shop... |
>> Sheet rock is the best for the money. Cover the inside of the room with
carpet if you want to have a real dead quite room. <<
Chris...thanks for the great info! Sheetrock and carpet sounds like a cheap,
effective solution (and boy do I need that after all the $$$ to get the house
).
The garage is already insulated/sheetrocked, so this on top of it should be
great.
Rob.
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: RE: Piping air in shop. |
I have heard a lot of talk about noisy compressors and the noise impact of
riveting. I have a lousy Sears 1 HP oiless compressor with a shrimpy 7 gallon
tank that just about runs nonstop when I'm putting heavy air demand on it
(die grinder). I use the top secret, revealed here for the first time, method
of wearing hearing protectors when I am using the compressor, riveting, or
cutting metal on the bandsaw (like fingernails on a blackboard at hard rock
volume). And if you exercise the precaution of closing your shop doors, no
one in your neighborhod will notice the riveting noise. They'll just hear a
low rumble that they wil attribute to their spouse's stomach. I riveted up my
wings and fuselage in a garage shop directly beneath my baby son's bedroom,
and it never woke him up. (Of course, all he says now is "Huh?"
Mike Kukulski (KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com)
RV-4 Rudder/Brake Pedals
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | OrndorffG(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: oil breather |
Tom ,
What Becki and I did was just run a hose from the breather outlet to the
exhaust pipes.
Remember to cut a small second hole in the hose about 6 to 8 in from the end
for incase the end of the hose would get blocked for any reason (bugs / ice
/? ).
keep up the good work ....George & Becki Orndorff
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Nose or Tail drag. |
> On the 6-A, don't forget, you need enough room to install wings
>while the fuselage is upside down in the jig. I do think resale value could
>be higher on the 6-A and I would think insurance would be cheaaper.
Back when I originally started thinking about this project, Avemco quoted me
something like $200/yr difference in insurance for the 6 vs the 6A. I opted
for the 6A for handling reasons mainly, but heck, $200 will buy 200+ gallons
of avgas.
Also, I wouldn't worry too much about space to mount the wings; I didn't have
enough room to do so in the jig, but you can remove it from the jig and set
the fuse on sawhorses (or whatever's handy) because the fuse is VERY rigid at
this point. Once you're done, it gets turned upright, so the jig isn't
necessary anymore anyway. I hung some rope from the ceiling where the
wingtips would be to stabilize wing 1 while wing 2 was being installed.
It would be easier to do it in the jig, but it's not that bad without it.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | EBundy2620(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Engines Weights |
>The theory makes perfect sense to me. Subjectively, how significant
>would you say the effect is in an RV-6? I was very happy with the pitch
>response of the RV-4 I flew (with 320, wood prop, and two adults on board).
>Would an RV-6 with CS prop and solo be (a) hugely different, (b) noticably
>different but still quite nice for aeros, or (c) only very slightly
>different? This may be an academic question, because I find your arguments
>in favour of fixed pitch props (below) convincing.
Maybe someone out there can help on this. I cannot say, as I have only had a
brief flight in a 6A with a fixed prop.
>I have assumed that, if I pick the right pitch for a fixed-pitch prop, I
>will be able to cruise at WOT at 7,500 ASL and be getting about 75% power.
>Is that a realistic assumption, or is there a subtlety I'm missing?
That is correct, but finding the exact right pitch is very tricky, and can
change somewhat with conditions. If you're a little high/low (RPM) you can
climb/descend to compensate. I think that's the biggest hurdle finding the
right prop for an airplane with the envelope of an RV.
-- Ed Bundy
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com> |
| Subject: | Re: Airplane data RV-4 N47RG |
> In the spirit of Mr. Skinner's idea for data on flying RV's here's
mine.
-----snip----
> Name: Rusty Gossard Cincinnati, Ohio, Based LUK, Work # 513-621-9462
> E-mail rust47rg(at)one.net
----snip----
> Installed capacitive type fuel level senders. I don't like them....the're
> hard to set and require resetting.
Rusty, I've ordered Vision Microsystems fuel level system but have
not installed it yet. Who's did you install?
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com> |
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, EDWARD COLE wrote:
> Does anyone know Van's policy/feelings on buying kit parts from another
> builder who has given up the process? i.e. buying a fuselage kit still
> in the box a little over a year old.
The only requirement is that YOU (the builder) have a serial number. A
lot of people acquire tail and Wing kits that way, and if you do, you
need to acquire 'all rights', including plans ad builder number (serial
number).
I think there is no problem with acquiring serial number and tail kit
from person A, wing kit from person B, fueslage kit from person C, etc.
Best Regards,
Dave Barnhart
rv-6 sn 23744
________________________________________________________________________________
| From: | WStucklen(at)aol.com |
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Data |
This is a pass at outlining my aircraft data. Hope it helps......
Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
"N" NUMBER: N925RV (That's "Nine to Five RV" cause that's how I would
like to fly it.)
MODEL: RV-6A S/N 21508
DATE FINISHED: 9/1/93 (First Flight) 3300 Hrs construction time in 2
Years
TOTAL TIME: 650 Hrs
ENGINE: O-320-D1A (Experimental Classification)
PROP: Sensinich
CANOPY: Tilt up
STARTER: B & C
ALTERNATOR: 60 Amp with noise surpressor
VOLT. REG.: Solid State
January 18, 1996 - January 25, 1996
RV-Archive.digest.vol-az