RV-Archive.digest.vol-ba

January 25, 1996 - February 02, 1996



      BATTERY:        GIL 25Ah
      EXHAUST:        Alen Tolle SS
      ELEVATOR TRIM: Electric - Servo in fuselage. Custom cable required avail from
                                          Spruce & Specialty.
      FLAPS:                      Manual, four 10 degree knotches 
      BRAKES:   Dual     TIRE PRESSURE:   35psi
      PANEL:        KA-134 Audio Panel, KY-97A Comm, KX-125 Nav/Comm, NAV-122
      LOC/GS/MARKER, IIMorrow Flybuddy GSP, AT-150 Transponder, IIMorrow Encoder,
      KR-86 ADF with KA-42B Ant., Centry I Auto Pilot (doubles as Turn & Bank),
      Shadin Miniflo-L Fuel flow meter (GPS interface), Electronics International
      Tach, Utlimate Scanner, Oil Pressure/Temp, Voltage/Current  gages, SP-400
      Intercomm, AI, Air Speed, Rate of Climb/Descent, Panel mounted clock/timer,
      Pito Heat. All gauges lighed by internal amps or Whalen post lights. Map
      light overhead with knee area lighting .
      
      LIGHTING:   Bob Olds Kit  both wings.  Lights driven by two 40 ADC relays on
                                     center off switch. Taxi @90Watts, Landing @
      120Watts. Bulbs available                       through J.C. Whitney @ $12
      each
      PAINT:       Dupont Chroma One, Varaprime base. Colors: 1987 Ford Smoke White
                       (Dove Grey), Halopino Red, Conn Edison Blue
      
      INTERIOR: Alexander Drop in
      
      INSURANCE:          AUI      
      
      OTHER (MISC): Two Piece Wheel Pants
      
      PROBLEMS: 
       EXHAUST SYSTEM: Welded Tolle exahust system three times: Always broke on #4
      cylinder flange. Finally inserted wedges from flange down pipe to releave the
      stress in that area. No problems since.
      
      PROP:  Changed from Warake prop with dynamic balancer to Sensinich prop and
      gained 10 MPH. (Tested same day under same conditions). Warnake prop still
      didn't idle low enough.
      
      WHEEL PANTS: Two piece wheel pants had to be re-trimmed when changing over
      from McCreary tires to Goodyear tires.
      
      TIRE WEAR:  Getting about 150 Hrs out of the tires, but ONLY if brakes are
      used sparingly on landings. Find that tires MUST be turned around at 60-70
      Hrs to acheive even wear. Wear ALWAYS accurs on OUTSIDE corners.
      
      RADIOS:  Still have intermittent problems with NAV-122. No other unit exists
      for replacement into 3 1/8" hole that has LOC, GS, MARKERS. Narco
      upgrade/rework will cost big bucks.  Recommend that new builders increase the
      area of the instrument panel by lowering it 2-3", if they want space for more
      goodies.
      
      FRONT STRUT: Continue to have problems with trailing edge of stiffener
      cracking. Used butt joint method. Plan to re-do with tape wrapping method.
      
      PERFORMANCE DATA:
      EMPTY WEIGHT:     1025 lbs
      GROSS WEIGHT:      1650 lbs
      MAX CRUISE:           195 Mph @ 8000', full trottle. 
      ECONOMY CRUSE:  165 Mph, 8 Gph
      
________________________________________________________________________________
From: PFPA(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 25, 1996
Subject: 6A tilt canopy / front fuse skin
I've got a small problem which I'd like an answer to before I start cutting metal and maybe make the small problem into a big one. I'm working on the front forward fuselage skin and the front canopy skin on a 6A tilt-up canopy. The problem is that my sub-panel is either not exactly perpendicular to the longerons or is slightly warped as it is mounted. Now, when fitting the forward skin, the plans say to line it up on the subpanel 3/16" forward of the subpanel's web. Then the front canopy skin butts up to the back of the that and lays on the top of that 3/16" of the sub-panel flange that was left uncovered. My question is how important is it that, that 3/16" spacing on top of the sub-panel remain constant. As mine is now, if I give 3/16" at the top center of the subpanel, then at the sides I have only 1/16" of overhang space for the butt joint of the canopy. However, if I line up the skin to get 3/16" overhang at the sides, then the top center is almost off the flange, certainly not enough to set in a line of rivets. Andy Gold ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Cheap fuel?
Where? > but heck, $200 will buy 200+ gallons > of avgas. > > -- Ed Bundy > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Jan 25, 1996
Subject: Re: Airplane data RV-4 N47RG
>> In the spirit of Mr. Skinner's idea for data on flying RV's here's >mine. >-----snip---- >> Name: Rusty Gossard Cincinnati, Ohio, Based LUK, Work # 513-621-9462 >> E-mail rust47rg(at)one.net >----snip---- >> Installed capacitive type fuel level senders. I don't like them....the're >> hard to set and require resetting. > >Rusty, I've ordered Vision Microsystems fuel level system but have >not installed it yet. Who's did you install? > Westach..... I've found the best guage to be a stopwatch. Considering the dihedral of the RV wing and the bay layout of the tanks it's hard to get a very accurate fuel level (IMHO). The E.I. system looks nice with the fuel flow readout but it's large dollars. I havn't heard anything on the vision system. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Mike & Shirley Hiscock" <shiscock(at)fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Jan 25, 1996
Subject: Re: How do you make alodine work
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:37:25 -0800 From: llnl.gov!ward9(at)matronics.com (Rich Ward) Subject: Re: RV-List: RV List: How do you make alodine work >Bob Busick asked about alodyning large parts. > >As far as uneven/different coloring on the large pieces: This happens >to me too, but after trying several different ways to alleviate it I Just a little info that my father gave me ( he's quality assurance with a local airline, and has talked to the sheet metal guys at length). They normally clean their parts with Alumiprep, then while they are still wet apply the alodine. They often have an alodine bath and just leave the parts in there for a while. I've tried the same principle, I pour alodine into a plastic wash basin then continually wet the pieces that are too big to soak. After I'm finished I run the alodine through a coffee filter and it's ready to use again. PS Thanks to the builder who posted the idea of putting primer in the frige to keep it longer. Although here in Canada, I just leave it outside but at least I don't have to make up a new batch for a couple of little pieces. mike hiscock ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com (Michael Gamble)
Subject: Bakersfield
Hi all: I have just been monitoring this list for a couple of months. I havent' bought a kit yet, shoot don't even fly yet! But I have always had a big interest in Aviation. So I was reading along and saw someone make s comment about someone in Bakersfield. Is there someone building a RV who lives in Bakersfield? If so I would love to have a look? Maybe even give you a had with some things that require an extra hand. Thanks! Mick _____________________________________________________________ || Michael C. Gamble Fax: (805) 328-3860 || || Happy Troll Computing Phone: (805) 328-3840 || || 5329 Office Center Court Email: mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com || || Suite 200 || || Bakersfield, CA 93309 || ------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: 6A tilt canopy / front fuse skin
>I've got a small problem which I'd like an answer to before I start cutting >metal and maybe make the small problem into a big one. > >I'm working on the front forward fuselage skin and the front canopy skin on a >6A tilt-up canopy. > >The problem is that my sub-panel is either not exactly perpendicular to the >longerons or is slightly warped as it is mounted. Now, when fitting the >forward skin, the plans say to line it up on the subpanel 3/16" forward of >the subpanel's web. Then the front canopy skin butts up to the back of the >that and lays on the top of that 3/16" of the sub-panel flange that was left >uncovered. > >My question is how important is it that, that 3/16" spacing on top of the >sub-panel remain constant. As mine is now, if I give 3/16" at the top center >of the subpanel, then at the sides I have only 1/16" of overhang space for >the butt joint of the canopy. However, if I line up the skin to get 3/16" >overhang at the sides, then the top center is almost off the flange, >certainly not enough to set in a line of rivets. > >Andy Gold Andy, .... I had a similar effect, and your subpanel is probably mounted as per the plans. In this case, the instructions are _wrong_ when they say that a perpendicular subpanel (F-668) will enable the front decking to wrap evenly around. This would be the case if there was NO taper in the forward fuselage ... but there is taper, and the effect is exactly as you describe. I got the exact same dimensional errors you mention ... when there is 3/16 overlap at the center, there is only 1/16 overlap at the edges. I chose to leave it this way, but did slightly "push" parts of the F-668 aft as I drilled the skin to give a little more canopy skin overlap on the radiused portion of the subpanel. If I repeated that work, I think I would actually mount the longeron edges of the F-668 1/8 inch aft of "true" and give a little more overlap at the ends of the canopy skin. In effect, this would bow the outer edges of the subpanel away from the firewall. In my case, the subpanel would have actually fitted better this way. The two F-668 pieces were the most warped and twisted parts of my whole kit. However, if you look _really_ closely at the pictures in the instructions, I think you can see the prototype (with a different canopy frame though) was built with a reduced overlap at the edges. Unfortunately there are no close-up photos of this area with the production canopy frame. I did find that quite large shims were needed here at the edges ( more than 0.060 ) when the canopy skin was installed on the frame, so the canopy skin can be "adjusted" in height. The one good thing is that I believe the gas strut kit will "push" the canopy forward and make it mate tightly against the subpanel, even with 1/16 overlap at the ends ...... can one of the completed RV6 tip-up owners verify this?? ...... what can be added to the Frank Justice instructions to help other builders?? ..... good luck ... Gil Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com RV6A, #20701 .. completed canopy frame .. fiddling with plexiglas ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
> > >Would an RV-6 with CS prop and solo be (a) hugely different, (b) noticably > >different but still quite nice for aeros, or (c) only very slightly > >different? This may be an academic question, because I find your arguments > >in favour of fixed pitch props convincing. I don't have extensive experience, but I did get a good chance to compare the two when I flew to Sun-N-Fun with Van's crew last year, and I'd have to say it's between (a) and (b). I flew from Oregon to Florida with Bill Benedict in the Red factory demonstrator RV-6T -- 180hp/cs prop I flew back with Andy Hanna in the Yellow RV-6B 160/fixed pitch metal prop. (Bear in mind that this is NOT solo most of it was dual with the baggage compartment stuffed! -- I can't speak to solo/no baggage.) Granted the 180 vs 160 was part of the difference. But in general I was really impressed with the added versatility the CS prop afforded. We encountered similar scenarios both on the way out and back in terms of getting up through a relatively small hole, and also back down. Not only did the CS prop get off the ground a WHOLE lot quicker (especially in high density altitude situations), but climbing up through a hole in the clouds was a lot easier -- much better climb performance and also cooler temps. In a similar situation with the fixed pitch prop the CHTs were getting really high and we had to baby it up there to keep it cool enough. And getting DOWN -- again in both planes at one point we found ourselves looking for a hole -- ANY hole. And in both situations we found a SMALL one. Getting down through it with the CS prop was just a matter of pointing the nose down -- the prop flattens out and acts like a speed brake. With the fixed pitch we couldn't do that and ended up having to set up as if for landing, with the "touch down point" being the edge of the hole. Then, flaps down, throttled back, we sunk through it. Same thing goes for slowing down in the pattern -- much easier with the CS prop. Another example would by my buddy Don Wentz. He has a 180/fixed pitch wood prop and never seems to be satisfied. He's had it re-pitched once (twice?) and just never seems to be quite happy with the performance he gets out of it, but now that he's got it on there he's reluctant to bite the bullet and buy a CS. This isn't to say that fixed pitch props are bad, but just to reiterate what someone else mentioned, which is that it can be difficult to get just the right combination. Can you guess which one _I'm_ going to use? :-) Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: re: piping air in shop...
> The workshop will be about 9' x 17'. Is that big enough? The extra bedroom > will be storing finished components . When final assy. comes along I will > knock down the workshop and park on the street till completion. I started with a 12 x 18 single car garage and that was pretty cramped, but worked for my tail. Once I got to the wings I got sick of no space and built a temporary extension onto the front -- 8x10. Then I got sick of fogging up my whole garage every time I primed, so I built another 12x12 extension off the back as a paint room. Now I'm pretty comfortable. I'm not saying you CAN'T build in that small of a space, I know people have managed it. But I found it really slowed me down having to keep rearranging things so I could get around. I hated to take the time and money to build these extra temporary structures but now that I've done it all I'm really glad I did. My wings are stored under plastic in the "paint room" which has a downdraft fan/filter arrangement and wire screen table for priming parts. I also keep my compressor in there cause it's so loud. My tail parts are stored in various places in the house. And I STILL wouldn't mind having more space (that fuselage jig takes up a lot!) Just more "real world" data -- food for thought. Hint: they make some pretty inexpensive car covers these days.... Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: Aircraft Data
You wrote: > > This is a pass at outlining my aircraft data. Hope it helps...... > >Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV > (snip) Fred, I'm close to the elevator/trim tab construction, can you elaborate on your sevo location and custom cable? Also, what was your reason for manual versus electric flaps? Thanks, Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM>
Subject: Re: waiting on the -8
> IMHO, there is a cure for this waiting kitted by that fella in > Bakersfield... Check six! I just hope that news of the -8 doesn't do to Vans what it did to Osborne. -- "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs "Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez)
Subject: Fixed vs. Constant Speed Prop.
This is just my two cents worth. 1) I don't really feel comfortalbe with wooden props due to the occasional failure. Granted, this can be reduced with frequent maintenance. But here in New England the humidity often changes a great deal in a short time. 2) I'm dissapointed with the RPM limitations of the Sensenich metal props. I worry that I will not be able to get full power with them. 3) A number of years ago I flow several different Decatholons. One had 180/CS, one had 160/CS and the other had 150/fixed. I REALLY liked the 180/CS. When I pushed the throttle and pulled back we went up. Right Now! The others seemed so much more anemic, especially the 150. 4) I am attacted to the versatility of the constant speed prop. I figure in cruise at altitude I can save some gas. So on the -6A that I took over, I will put on a constant speed prop this spring. I will do this even though the project came with a wood prop. I am going to do this even though it means that I will have to remove and sell the current engine and get another. Cheryl Sanchez csanchez(at)world.std.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: Scott Johnson <rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Ok RV Inovators, whats the best way to ...
Whats the best way to ventilate a 20 foot by 20 foot workspace so that the cloud of primer spray does not get on everything in the workshop. Mounting an exhaust van in the wall is a start but I am concerned about the primer being blown out onto my neighbors house. Has anybody made some type of paint trap so that the overspray exhaust will not fly on something outside ? Also, since the fine mist is highly explosive, how can you be sure the fan you get doesn't spark from brushes etc ? (Note: I do have a fresh air system so I am not concerned about breathing this stuff). Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks ... Scott Johnson P.S. I am particularily interested on your ideas on how to trap the paint from the exhausted workshop air. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Nose or Tail drag.
On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 aol.com!EBundy2620(at)matronics.com wrote: > Back when I originally started thinking about this project, Avemco quoted me > something like $200/yr difference in insurance for the 6 vs the 6A. I opted > for the 6A for handling reasons mainly, but heck, $200 will buy 200+ gallons > of avgas. So Ed just where do you get this avgas at that this price. We buy autogas for our club planes wholesale at $1.05 a gallon. If I can get Avgas cheaper I would use it. Bob Busick RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Ok RV Inovators, whats the best way to ...
Here's what I did: I cut a hole in the wall near the floor and put a 16" x 20" attic type louvered vent in it. I also put a similar vent in the opposite wall for incoming air. Then I got a 16" box fan (plain old free standing household use, $20 or so) and put it right against the vent near the floor. Then I put a fiberglass furnace filter against the inside screen of the fan. The furnace filter traps most of the paint spray, and I haven't seen any overspray on the outside of my house or anything. I have primed all my tail, wing and fuselage parts so far, as well as some other people who've come over to use my setup to do their parts. I also built a a box into the corner around where the fan is, about 6' long by 2.5' wide by 30" high, out of scrap plywood, with a 1/4" wire screen top. I just put the parts on the screen and spray them and virtually all of the overspray gets sucked down and out through the vent. I do find I have to change the furnace filter frequently, about once per quart of paint. I'm not sure just how much risk there is of explosion due to sparks from the brushes, etc. I may be being foolish about this, but statistically there doesn't seem to be much risk of using regular old fans in this sort of work, based on how many people I know who have used the same or similar set-up without incident. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: joehine(at)mi.net (joehine)
Subject: Re: Ok RV Inovators, whats the best way to ...
>Whats the best way to ventilate a 20 foot by 20 foot workspace so that the >cloud of primer spray does not get on everything in the workshop. Mounting >an exhaust van in the wall is a start but I am concerned about the primer >being blown out onto my neighbors house. Has anybody made some type of paint >trap so that the overspray exhaust will not fly on something outside ? Also, >since the fine mist is highly explosive, how can you be sure the fan you get >doesn't spark from brushes etc ? (Note: I do have a fresh air system so I am >not concerned about breathing this stuff). Any comments or suggestions would >be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks ... Scott Johnson > >P.S. I am particularily interested on your ideas on how to trap the paint >from the exhausted workshop air. > > Buy a low pressure high volume spray system....very little overspray and does a good job. I have seen two RV's painted with a high volume low pressure gun that didn't leave any bad overspray on anything in the garage. Joe Hine joehine(at)mi.net 506-452-1072 Home 506-452-3495 Work ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: "JEFFREY A. HALL" <76476.733(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Taildragger FAR
FAR 61.31(g) States that you must have an endorsement by a qualified CFI to operate a tailwheel airplane, unless you have logged tailwheel time prior to April 15, 1991. Interestingly, you are required to be competent in wheel landings unless the manufacturer recommends against them, but no requirement regarding threepointers! (Unless that is your definition of a normal or crosswind TO or L.) Jeff Hall CFIAI RV4 wings and stuff Ft. Collins, Co. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer)
Subject: Piper PA24 Parts Help Needed
Sorry for using the list for this message but I didn't know where else to start. My RV building helper and consultant is rebuilding a Piper Commanche and has exhausted all the usual parts suppliers including all listed in Trade A Plane trying to obtain some front baffles and oil cooler and oilcooler mounts for his project. If anyone can direct me to an address (e-mail, web site, or a newsgroup) from which we can get help obtaining these components (we have serial no. and parts nos.) I would appreciate the help. PLEASE e-mail me direct in order to keep this stuff off the RV list. Thanks Chet Razer crazer(at)midwest.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Ok RV Inovators, whats the best way to ...
>Whats the best way to ventilate a 20 foot by 20 foot workspace so that the >cloud of primer spray does not get on everything in the workshop. Mounting >an exhaust van in the wall is a start but I am concerned about the primer >being blown out onto my neighbors house. Has anybody made some type of paint >trap so that the overspray exhaust will not fly on something outside ? Also, >since the fine mist is highly explosive, how can you be sure the fan you get >doesn't spark from brushes etc ? (Note: I do have a fresh air system so I am >not concerned about breathing this stuff). Any comments or suggestions would .be greatly appreciated. Thanks ... Scott Johnson >P.S. I am particularily interested on your ideas on how to trap the paint >from the exhausted workshop air. Scott, About trapping paint... At work, we have a paint booth to exhaust the conformal coat that we spray on pcb's. we use paper filters that look similar furnace filters. You might try a furnace filter or something similar. I've also seen cloth bags in the exhaust of woodworking shops, but I don't know if that would work for paint. It would probably muffle the explosion, though. ;-) Steve Mayer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: Explosion Proof Fans
I'm now heading into my first priming, and my spray tent is ready to go...except for one last detail, that is a method of evacuating the fumes. I guess I'm reluctant to use the garden variety 'Nutone' or some such thing, and have gone in seach of an "explosion proof" fan...ie. one that uses a sealed motor with no possibility of a spark, and a low static blade. The problem is, of course, that these things run at a pretty high capacity, and are quite pricey...$500 Canadian. I was wondering if anybody has any ideas as a less expensive source of supply, or something that they've finished with, and might be willing to part with for a reasonable sum. What with all the priming discussion, I realize not everybody is interested in this discussion...feel free to send replies to me directly, if you so choose! Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Working on Empennage" PS. You read the title right! Turns out that's what they call these things in the Alberta oil patch, primarily for the well site applications where's the possibility of explosive gas...I figure if it's safe for that application, it might just work for my lil' old spray tent. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Building space (was...Piping air in shop...)
>> I started with a 12 x 18 single car garage and that was pretty cramped... << Well, that certainly puts things in perspective. Come to think of it...I once built a 3.5 meter r/c sailplane on a 8x10 work surface, and that lacked room at one point or another. I'll have to re-evaluate the situation. Thanks a lot . >> Hint: they make some pretty inexpensive car covers these days.... << Heck, that's not the problem. The truck can stay outside (it gets 100+ miles/day anyway, so the paint will still be shining when it dies)...its having to find a parking spot on the street and then *walking* to the front door of my first house that bugs me....reminds me of all this time in apartments ! Rob. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Bakersfield
>> Is there someone building a RV who lives in Bakersfield? << There's more RV's in Bakersfield than cars, literally. Seriously, I drove through and visited once. I can't remember the exact name of the airfield, but I think its M(something) Field, south part of the city and east of the 5 if I remember correctly. Look for the largest hanger...they're all in there. Enjoy, Rob. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: kightdm(at)harvey.carol.net (danny kight)
Subject: Re: Elevator Trim
>I've recently started on the left elevator, and am looking for advice as to a >good way to cut out the trim tab - tools to use, sequence, etc. How did you >do it?? > > >Thanks in advance. > >Dick Flunker >RV-6A, Wing on order (RFLUNKER(at)AOL.COM) > Dick, I recently finished the left elevator/trim tab on my -6, and this is what I can recommend: First of all, don't cut out the trim tab until after you rivet the stiffeners on. After the trim is cut out, the skin gets very flimsy and harder to handle. I used offset aviation tinsnips to cut the tab out and got good results. A die grinder with a cutoff blade should also work well, but based on my experience trimming fiberglass, would be a little harder to get a precise cut unless you have a very steady hand. BE SURE to leave material for the fold-over tabs on the elevator. Take Van's advice in the plans, and make a posterboard (from Wal-Mart, Eckerds, etc.) template of the trim tab. Cut the little ears, fold it, and tape it together to make sure it fits OK. Repeat this step as needed to get it right! Unfold the template, lay it over the aluminum, draw around the edges with your trusty Sharpie pen, then cut it out. Use the elevator jig V-blocks/wedge pieces to hold the end of the trim tab and elevator so you can bend the tabs down. There is a picture of this in the instructions and it works well. Use a block of wood or plastic mallet to fold/tap the tabs over. Don't forget to add the reinforcement piece around the corner of the trim tab where the control horn mounts. This is not in my plans (6 months old) but is detailed in the RVator a couple of issues back. If you are using the manual trim cable (like me) don't cut the hole in the elevator skin, or rivet the skin to the skeleton until you have the trim cable in hand. Being able to trim and fit everything before riveting is a great help. If I had followed the dimensions on the plans I would have cut the hole in the wrong place! Hope this helps, Danny Kight kightdm(at)carol.net Putting the (ugh) fiberglass tips on the empennage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: kightdm(at)harvey.carol.net (danny kight)
Subject: Re: Cheap fuel?
> but heck, $200 will buy 200+ gallons > of avgas. > > -- Ed Bundy Maybe you meant auto fuel. 100LL goes for $2.00/gal. at my home base of Anderson, SC. However, the fine folks who run the FBO in Washington, GA (40 miles south of me) sell it for $1.52/gal!!!!! My Sonerai only holds 10 gallons, but it is still worth the trip to refuel. It will be even more worthwhile when I get my -6 flying. Danny Kight kightdm(at)carol.net Putting the (ugh) fiberglass on the empennage now. I'm showing unusual discipline by finishing the empennage completely (except for final paint) before I hang that beautiful Phlogiston spar on the jig. Thought for the day: Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: Randy Crothers <rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com>
Subject: Partial compl. kits
As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly completed (90% etc..) tail kits that are for sale for not much more than the price of the parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck of a jump start on the project and maybe save a few dollars. On the other side I realize that I may not be a very good judge of the quality of work that has been completed (although I think I could get some good help). Also, there is the question of the 51% rule etc.. Is it important to begin your learning curve on the empenage? I would sure appreciate hearing from some of you builders that may have started out this way and how is has worked out for you. I wonder if there may be some important issues I havn't considered. Thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: FAA and tailwheel endorsement
All As a flight instructor I checked with FAA headquarters about a tailwheel endorsements needed for a experimental, below is Rick Cremer replay to my post on Compuserve, Rick is with FAA HDQ. and is very active in the FAA section of the AVSIG forum on Compuserve. >1/23/96 Jerry Springer ask Rick Am I reading FAR 61.31[h](3) right when it says that if we are flying a experimental (read homebuilt) that we do not need a tailwheel endorsement to fly a tailwheel homebuilt airplane Thanks Jerry Springer< >>1/24/96 Rick Cremer replied That's the way I read it although we've never (to my knowledge) said that in a written document anywhere including our inspector's handbook or legal interpretation. Also, I looked at Amendment 61-90 which is the amendment that affected 61.31(h) and we don't explain it in the preamble either. So, in the absence of any other guidance I would say that you are reading the regulation correctly. At least that's my opinion. Best Regards Rick Cremer FAA HDQ << ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 25, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen )
Subject: Re: old RV3 kit (aka replacement skin..)
You wrote: > > Finn, I see you have an old RV-3 kit. > I hope you are aware of the mods to beef up the rear spar attach > point on the RV3's. While you have the skin off this would be > the time to make that change. Thanks. Yes I've glanced at that. I believe one of the mod methods can be done without removing the skins. Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: re: piping air in shop...
>This is good, real world, news...thanks! I have never even held a rivet gun >or >know how loud they are...have only heard them on the Orndorf (sp?) videos. If you're worried about noise you probably don't want to get an oilless compressor. They practically wake the dead. >manner...letsee...how do I describe this...a bunch of lollipops off a main >street, each having eight houses around it...geezzzz...it's a California >too-many-people kinda thing). So, my neighbors can not only see whats in the >garage everytime I open it but hear it as well. >pull my truck in, hide the project, and deaden the sound all at once. Where 'bouts in CA do you live? My wife and I are recent escapee's. We lived in the San Fernando valley in So. Cal. Got all my flight training at Van Nuys. Boy, when you learn to fly there, everywhere else is a breeze! 3.5 years ago we moved to Idaho (a little town called Eagle, about 20nm North of Boise. We absolutely love it here. We live on 5 acres, and the nearest house is 200 yds away. I don't have to worry too much about noise... >The workshop will be about 9' x 17'. Is that big enough? The extra bedroom >will be storing finished components . When final assy. comes along I will >knock down the workshop and park on the street till completion. It'll be okay for the wings and tail. I built my wings and tail in a spare bedroom (very understanding wife) with 8X12 working space, not including tables, etc. It was VERY tight. I think that would be the absolute minimum. I don't know if you can build your fuse there. The fuse takes up 4X15 during construction, and you need room to get around it and work on it. As long as you can park on the street you may need to do that when you start construction on the fuse. Believe me, it'll be worth it. I built a 2+ car garage to build my fuse, and store parts, tools, etc. Both cars are out in the snow until the airplane's done... Which one are you going to build? -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Partial compl. kits
Randy, when you look at a partial kit be careful of the workman ship and care to detail the tail kit is 50% control surfaces.Also there is a lot of learning that goes on with tail kit, remember that the most expensive part of the tail kit is only $30 if you mess up, easy to fix , you don't need to try to fix a mess up on the wing. If you stick to it you can complete a tail kit a 3 or 4 months. Partial completed kits can speed things up and can also slow things down you have to deside what it is worth...George & Becki Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Ok RV Inovators, whats the best way to ...
Scott, Here's some ideas, first on your fans place on both sides filters like the ones used on furnaces, next use a high volume low presure spray gun (harbor frieght has one for $89 that works great), you can also vent the air from the fans into water .I think you will find that the HVLP gun will do the most to help you out .Keep up the good work.. George & Becki Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: FAA and tailwheel endorsement
writes: >As a flight instructor I checked with FAA headquarters about a tailwheel >endorsements needed for a experimental, below is Rick Cremer replay to my >post on Compuserve, Rick is with FAA HDQ. and is very active in the FAA >section of the AVSIG forum on Compuserve. > > >>1/23/96 >Jerry Springer ask > >Rick >Am I reading FAR 61.31[h](3) right when it says that if we are flying a >experimental (read homebuilt) that we do not need a tailwheel endorsement to >fly a tailwheel homebuilt airplane > >Thanks >Jerry Springer< > >>>1/24/96 >Rick Cremer replied > >That's the way I read it although we've never (to my knowledge) said that in >a written document anywhere including our inspector's handbook or legal >interpretation. Also, I looked at Amendment 61-90 which is the amendment that >affected 61.31(h) and we don't explain it in the preamble either. So, in the >absence of any other guidance I would say that you are reading the regulation >correctly. At least that's my opinion. > > >Best Regards > >Rick Cremer >FAA HDQ << > > Dear Jerry and Rick, I just read 61.31 and this is MY interpretation. Read PARAGRAPH [(h)] the part which reads "Exception. This section does not require a class rating for.......etc..". "In addition, the rating limitations of this section do not apply to:...(3) The holder of a pilot cert, when operating an aircraft under the authority of an experimental or provisional type certificate." The "exception" is only referring to the requirement for the pilot to have a type certificate. They are saying that when flying an experimental or provisional aircraft, the pilot is not required to have a type certificate for that aircraft, regardless of whether that kind of aircraft (size, weight, seats, etc.) would normally require the pilot to have a type rating. It has nothing to do with the PARAGRAPH [(g)] Tailwheel Airplanes, which stands alone and refers to "no person", which in government lingo means "everyone must". I am a practicing flight instructor and have been interpreting it this way since it first came about. Actually, it's quite clear and requires no interpretation if you can digest the whole section 61.31. And you don't get indigestion! Jim Stugart DerFlieger(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: 6A tilt canopy / front fuse skin
>I've got a small problem which I'd like an answer to before I start cutting >metal and maybe make the small problem into a big one. > >I'm working on the front forward fuselage skin and the front canopy skin on a >6A tilt-up canopy. > >The problem is that my sub-panel is either not exactly perpendicular to the >longerons or is slightly warped as it is mounted. Now, when fitting the >forward skin, the plans say to line it up on the subpanel 3/16" forward of >the subpanel's web. Then the front canopy skin butts up to the back of the >that and lays on the top of that 3/16" of the sub-panel flange that was left >uncovered. > >My question is how important is it that, that 3/16" spacing on top of the >sub-panel remain constant. As mine is now, if I give 3/16" at the top center >of the subpanel, then at the sides I have only 1/16" of overhang space for >the butt joint of the canopy. However, if I line up the skin to get 3/16" >overhang at the sides, then the top center is almost off the flange, >certainly not enough to set in a line of rivets. > >Andy Gold > Andy,I had a similar thing occur on my 6-tilt up. After positionaing the skin, I didn't feel like Van gave me quite enough material so I ordered a sheet from Airparts. I made my own forward skin and canopy skin and also canopy sides (because I wanted the canopy sides to overlap the fuselage sides and wanted them to line up with the bottom edge of the forward top skin and the skin where the rear glass is at the roll bar location.) My firewall is straight up, not bent forward. I would have had to shave some aluminum off of the sides so there was a uniform gap of 3/16 and wih the original factory skin, just didn't feel like there was any room at all for any shifting. I was afraid that the factory piece would end up like so many elevator skins, (not enough material to go clear to the edge, IOW, not a square corner.)hence the new skin. I'm building another tip up and am thinking about the following idea and would appreciate other builders' opinions on this: If you build according to plans, you will have notches in the flange of the sub-panel that will leak air if not sealed somehow. This area where the front of the canopy skin mates will also rub paint off. What would you think about riveting a strip of maybe .020" onto the flange of the subpanel to seal gaps and to maybe provide more of a bearing area for the canopy front skin. Probably wouldn't hold paint much better but would perhaps give a smoother bearing surface for the canopy front skin than the flange of the sub-panel with all it's small bumps and bulges. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: trim tab
>I've recently started on the left elevator, and am looking for advice as to a >good way to cut out the trim tab - >tools to use, sequence, etc. How did you >do it?? > > >Thanks in advance. > >Dick Flunker >RV-6A, >Wing on order (RFLUNKERck, Dick, Rather than bend the edges of the trim tab over and try to get them to line up perfectly, I made my own small end ribs for the trim tab from scrap and riveted them in. I did have to make this part twice tho because it warped after riveting the skin to the spar - watch out for this. bruce stobbe fuse skel ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Pre-built tail
>FROM: Randy Crothers, INTERNET:rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com >As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly completed (90% etc..) tail kits that are >for sale for not much more than the price of the parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck Randy, I think that building the tail section is an excellent introduction to the techniques and methods you will need to develop as you progress towards the more complicated assemblies. I would not have wanted to start the wings without the experiences and insight I gained from building the emmpenage. bruce stobbe fuse skeleton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-6 longerons
Van's is correct...make it fit. It is normal (as per plans) for the longeron to *twist* in this forward location. If you look at the plans, you will see that the weldments are cocked to the sides. Remember, this is the transistion spot where the fuselage goes from being slab-sided to curved. Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: waiting on the -8
Great to see you guys waiting! I'll fly my 4 and wait for you to get the bugs out of the 8 before I build one. Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Richard Chandler wrote: > > IMHO, there is a cure for this waiting kitted by that fella in > > Bakersfield... Check six! > > I just hope that news of the -8 doesn't do to Vans what it did to Osborne. > > > -- > "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous > scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" > -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs > "Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!" > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: 6A tilt canopy / front fuse skin
>>I've got a small problem which I'd like an answer to before I start cutting >>metal and maybe make the small problem into a big one. >> >>I'm working on the front forward fuselage skin and the front canopy skin on >a >>6A tilt-up canopy. >> >>The problem is that my sub-panel is either not exactly perpendicular to the >>longerons or is slightly warped as it is mounted. Now, when fitting the >>forward skin, the plans say to line it up on the subpanel 3/16" forward of >>the subpanel's web. Then the front canopy skin butts up to the back of the >>that and lays on the top of that 3/16" of the sub-panel flange that was left >>uncovered. >> >>My question is how important is it that, that 3/16" spacing on top of the >>sub-panel remain constant. As mine is now, if I give 3/16" at the top center >>of the subpanel, then at the sides I have only 1/16" of overhang space for >>the butt joint of the canopy. However, if I line up the skin to get 3/16" >>overhang at the sides, then the top center is almost off the flange, >>certainly not enough to set in a line of rivets. >> >>Andy Gold > >Andy, > .... I had a similar effect, and your subpanel is probably mounted >as per the plans. In this case, the instructions are _wrong_ when they say >that a perpendicular subpanel (F-668) will enable the front decking to wrap >evenly around. This would be the case if there was NO taper in the forward >fuselage ... but there is taper, and the effect is exactly as you describe. >I got the exact same dimensional errors you mention ... when there is 3/16 >overlap at the center, there is only 1/16 overlap at the edges. > > I chose to leave it this way, but did slightly "push" parts of the >F-668 aft as I drilled the skin to give a little more canopy skin overlap >on the radiused portion of the subpanel. > > If I repeated that work, I think I would actually mount the >longeron edges of the F-668 1/8 inch aft of "true" and give a little more >overlap at the ends of the canopy skin. In effect, this would bow the >outer edges of the subpanel away from the firewall. In my case, the >subpanel would have actually fitted better this way. The two F-668 pieces >were the most warped and twisted parts of my whole kit. > > However, if you look _really_ closely at the pictures in the >instructions, I think you can see the prototype (with a different canopy >frame though) was built with a reduced overlap at the edges. Unfortunately >there are no close-up photos of this area with the production canopy frame. > > I did find that quite large shims were needed here at the edges ( >more than 0.060 ) when the canopy skin was installed on the frame, so the >canopy skin can be "adjusted" in height. The one good thing is that I >believe the gas strut kit will "push" the canopy forward and make it mate >tightly against the subpanel, even with 1/16 overlap at the ends > > ...... can one of the completed RV6 tip-up owners verify this?? > > ...... what can be added to the Frank Justice instructions to help >other builders?? > > ..... good luck ... Gil Alexander > >gil(at)rassp.hac.com >RV6A, #20701 .. completed canopy frame .. fiddling with plexiglas > > From what you have discribed I think that you are both correct on your assesments. I not only had to ship the outside edges, but also had the same overlaping problem. The one thing I don't agree with is the concept of the gas struts pushing the conopy skin forward. In fact, as the canopy initially lifts the conopy skin center section actually has to arch forward. This requires that you leave a slight gap between the canopy skin and the fuselage skin. This fact IN NOT clear in the plans. Before you drill the forward skin into place, be sure that you have the canopy completed, mounted and completely functional. I found that by substituting a temporary skin in place of the F-671 skin helped to properly fit the canopy. Another area that isn't covered in the plans (at least my copy) is the fact that the canopy "V" strip seal drip edge MUST be installed such that it is waterproof. I used ProSeal on this join, to seal it as well as fill in any holes dues to bulkhead forming. If you don't seal it, it will leak, especially when you OPEN the canopy when it's wet. Hope this helps... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Elevator trim cable
>Fred, >I'm close to the elevator/trim tab construction, can you elaborate on >your sevo location and custom cable? Also, what was your reason for >manual versus electric flaps? >Thanks, >Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage >ecole(at)ix.netcom.com > > Sure! I mounted the servo on a bracket on the F-614 aft deck (Dwg #34, upper left corner) on the starbord side. The bracket positions the MAC servo such that it's push/pull actuator points at the end of a custom cable that comes throught the forward HS spare (as shown in section D-D in lower right corner). I also constructed a bracket that mounts to the rear of this spar. (The feed trhoug hole in the spar web did get moved inboard a bit.) This bracket is used to terminate the end of the custom cable. The custom cable has terminations that are the same as the end of the manual trim cable provided by Van's. It can be purchased through Spruce & specialty.(Part Number A-1550, 28 7/8" long inside cable, with a 2" travel.) Be sure NOT to specify that it as an elevator trim cable as Spruce's subcontractor (ACS Products Co.) has a legal problem with this concept. Better to specify it just as a push-pull cable. Cost of the cable in early 1993 was $48.00. I did make a print of the cable so that there would be no mixups in it's construction. I'll be glad to send it to you if you would like. Just send me a SASE.... Hope this helps.... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV Wstucklen(at)aol.com 148 winkler Rd. E. Windsor, Ct. 06088 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: majordomo
Subject: Re: RV-6 lon
-- >>>> -- END OF COMMANDS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: majordomo
Subject: Majordomo re
-- >>>> -- END OF COMMANDS ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Michael.R.Grubb(at)sam.usace.army.mil
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Explosion Proof Fans
>I'm now heading into my first priming, and my spray tent is ready to >go...except for one last detail, that is a method of evacuating the >fumes. I guess I'm reluctant to use the garden variety 'Nutone' or >some such thing, and have gone in seach of an "explosion proof" >fan...ie. one that uses a sealed motor with no possibility of a >spark, and a low static blade. If you have a "tent" as you say, you can possibly turn everything around (i.e. have a positive pressure ventilation system). Put a filter on the exhaust and use a simple fan as discussed in other posts for the fresh inlet air. One possible problem would be if your tent were not sealed - the overspray fumes will be forced in every nick and cranny in the shop, including into your arcing and sparking devices such as wall switches and the like (don't turn on anything with fumes present). I personally would not have a problem using a regular $20 fan as an exhaust. Since these are alternating current motors there should not be any sparks (although there is some heat build-up) if they are operating correctly. I also know quite a few of these have been used with no big boom yet. Disclaimer: HOWEVER, down here in the states we have a bunch of money-hungry, blood-sucking lawyers, so my official CMA recommendation would be to build a paint booth in accordance with the National Electrical Code, Article 516 (or whatever codes and regulations you operate under). This can probably be done for about the same cost as building an RV-6. In addition, don't forget your air emissions permit to satisfy the environmental folk. Sorry for rambling....back to lurking.................. Mike Grubb Designing work shop. Work shop construction this year. RV-? construction starting next year. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Introduction -Reply
Bruce Are you Don Stobbe of marquette electronics brother? I hired Don into Marquette. I am now in Jupiter, Fl building an RV6. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: piping air in shop...
>> >>>> Where 'bouts in CA do you live? My wife and I are recent escapee's. We >>>> lived in the San Fernando valley in So. Cal. Got all my flight training at >>>> Van Nuys. Boy, when you learn to fly there, everywhere else is a breeze! >>>> 3.5 years ago we moved to Idaho (a little town called Eagle, about 20nm >>>> North of Boise. We absolutely love it here. We live on 5 acres, and the >>>> nearest house is 200 yds away. I don't have to worry too much about noise... >>>> Yes, if you learn to fly in socal you can fly anywhere...I got my ppl at Torrance airport. I live in south orange county. You live in a beautiful place...I've visited Eagle a few times and its on my "move" list when I get outta' here (gotta finish the degree while my employer is paying for it ). >> Which one are you going to build? << RV-6. Do you know a Andy Hall in Nampa (RV-4)? Rob. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Explosion Proof Fans
At 02:31 AM 1/26/96 UT, you wrote: >I'm now heading into my first priming, and my spray tent is ready to >go...except for one last detail, that is a method of evacuating the fumes. I >guess I'm reluctant to use the garden variety 'Nutone' or some such thing, and >have gone in seach of an "explosion proof" fan...ie. one that uses a sealed >motor with no possibility of a spark, and a low static blade. > >The problem is, of course, that these things run at a pretty high capacity, >and are quite pricey...$500 Canadian. I was wondering if anybody has any >ideas as a less expensive source of supply, or something that they've finished >with, and might be willing to part with for a reasonable sum. > >What with all the priming discussion, I realize not everybody is interested in >this discussion...feel free to send replies to me directly, if you so choose! > >Terry in Calgary >S/N 24414 >"Working on Empennage" > >PS. You read the title right! Turns out that's what they call these things >in the Alberta oil patch, primarily for the well site applications where's the >possibility of explosive gas...I figure if it's safe for that application, it >might just work for my lil' old spray tent. > Terry, How about setting up the fan to blow into the tent (set up adeflection system so the air is not blowing directlt at you) This way the fan would not be exposed to high concentrations of fumes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mark Richardson <richards(at)sofkin.ca>
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Pre-built tail
> >FROM: Randy Crothers, INTERNET:rcrothers(at)rcrothers.seanet.com > >As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly completed > (90% etc..) tail kits that are >for sale for not much more than the price of the > parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck > This is what I did and boy did I regret it. Take it from me, BUILD YOUR OWN! Unless you know exactly what to look for, you may wing up buying the tail kit anyway. The tail I bought was useless, although to the untrained eye it looked fine. Besides, you learn alot building the tail and it really is a small portion of the overall effort required to build the airplane. Just my opinion, Mark ************************************************************************ * Mark Richardson Software Kinetics Ltd * * Project Manager 65 Iber Rd. * * Defence Systems Stittsville, Ont * * VOX 613-831-0888 K2S 1E7 * * FAX 613-831-1836 richards(at)sofkin.ca * ************************************************************************ * RV-6 20819 '85 Virago 750 * * EAA# - 367635 DoD# - 1506 * ************************************************************************ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Partial compl. kits
>As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly >completed (90% etc..) tail kits that are for sale for not much more than the >price of the parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck of >a jump start on the project and maybe save a few dollars. On the other side >I realize that I may not be a very good judge of the quality of work that >has been completed (although I think I could get some good help). Also, >there is the question of the 51% rule etc.. Is it important to begin your >learning curve on the empenage? I would sure appreciate hearing from some of >you builders that may have started out this way and how is has worked out >for you. I wonder if there may be some important issues I havn't considered. >Thanks in advance. > I don't believe the 51% rule would be a problem since Vans kits are so far below this. Your other observations are right on. I would be concerned about workmanship, but you could get some help with EAA tech Counselors and local builders. The experience thing is really valid. The Emp requires you to do most if not all of the proceedures used in he rest of the plane. It is nice to gain experience on these smaler parts which can be replaced rather cheaply. Also the Emp portion of Van's manual is the most detailed. In the rest of the manual you don't get alot of help. Frank Justices manual helps alot in this area. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Partial compl. kits
<199601260514.VAA01210(at)seanet.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: Jack Abell <abell(at)rand.org>
I never built an airplane before the RV-6A I'm working on now, but I can say unequivocally that if this is your first homebuilt you should start by building the empennage. The learning curve at first is simply too damned steep to start on the wings; mistakes there can be a lot more costly than the few empennage parts that you might need to replace due to screwups. I've only been at it for about six months but I've learned an enormous amount on the empennage and I'm certain that the empennage is exactly where I should have learned it. Good Luck. Jack Abell RV-6A Rudder (but not much longer) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Zilik(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Fuel Tanks
I am ready to rivet my fuel tanks together and have a couple of questions. The ribs have a little bit of oxidation showing on them and I am wondering what to do since the inside of the tank does not get primed. 1) should I alumi-prep the parts to clean them of oxidation? 2) should I alodine the parts? 3) would both the alumi-prep and alodine procedure help with adhesion(SP??) of the pro-seal? I plan on using only Pro-seal in sealing the tanks as I have heard many a horror story when using Randolf's sloshing sealer. Any thoughts on this subject would be greatly apreciated . Thanks in advance Gary Zilik zilik(at)aol.com RV-6A s/n 22993 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: 6A tilt canopy / front fuse skin
**** a "Tip of the Week" is near the end **** > >>>I've got a small problem which I'd like an answer to before I start cutting *** Andy's problem cut *** >>> >>>Andy Gold >> >>Andy, >> .... I had a similar effect, and your subpanel is probably mounted *** my original response cut *** >> >> ...... what can be added to the Frank Justice instructions to help >>other builders?? >> >> ..... good luck ... Gil Alexander > > From what you have discribed I think that you are both correct on your >assesments. I not only had to ship the outside edges, but also had the same >overlaping problem. The one thing I don't agree with is the concept of the >gas struts pushing the conopy skin forward. In fact, as the canopy initially >lifts the conopy skin center section actually has to arch forward. This >requires that you leave a slight gap between the canopy skin and the fuselage >skin. This fact IN NOT clear in the plans. I too noticed this, and presently have about an 0.040 gap here. For this clearance though, the gap only needs to exist in the slightly 'raised' portion of the subpanel that is in between the two hinges. I think this is an artifact of the change to the "gooseneck" hinges that have a hinge point different from the original straight hinges. Sort of funny though, I fitted the canopy for a perfect fit here, and then had to cut away edges to get the canopy to lift ... but it's easier to add than subtract (see my last week's mistake!) > Before you drill the forward skin >into place, be sure that you have the canopy completed, mounted and >completely functional. I found that by substituting a temporary skin in place >of the F-671 skin helped to properly fit the canopy. > Another area that isn't covered in the plans (at least my copy) is the >fact that the canopy "V" strip seal drip edge MUST be installed such that it >is waterproof. I used ProSeal on this join, to seal it as well as fill in any >holes dues to bulkhead forming. If you don't seal it, it will leak, >especially when you OPEN the canopy when it's wet. > Hope this helps... > >Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV >wstucklen(at)aol.com Two other points: 1. The 1/2 x 0.025 angle that holds the weatherstrip should be extended all of the way down to the cockpit rails to be truly effective. This means that the end of it should stop _behind_ the 4 inch long 3/4 x 1/16 angle that attaches the F-668 to the longerons/cockpit rail. I added a 0.025 shim behind this 3/4 angle to fill in the gap, and arranged for the outboard 3/4 angle/subpanel rivet to also be the end rivet on the weatherstrip 1/2 angle. As per the note above, this 1/2 angle should be sealed with ProSeal, something Fred reminded me of just in time ... thanks Fred! 2. I didn't have any angle drilling tool that could drill the D hole through the canopy hinge holes into the plastic blocks. Long drills just didn't fit either ... so "Tip of the Week" ... Your mini angle die grinder makes an excellent angle drill for 1/4 inch drill bits (or letter D - 0.0246 - bits) since they can be held directly by the 1/4 inch collet. I just used it at 30 psi, and it was as better than any angle drill attachment .... all for only $30 from Harbor Freight! ... and it even came with a 1/8 collet for #30 drills. hope this helps others .... Gil Alexander ... fitting plexiglas RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Ok RV Inovators, whats the best way to ...
Date: Jan 26, 1996
> Whats the best way to ventilate a 20 foot by 20 foot workspace so that the > cloud of primer spray does not get on everything in the workshop. Mounting > an exhaust van in the wall is a start but I am concerned about the primer > being blown out onto my neighbors house. Has anybody made some type of paint > trap so that the overspray exhaust will not fly on something outside ? Also, > since the fine mist is highly explosive, how can you be sure the fan you get > doesn't spark from brushes etc ? First, I would use a positive pressure system. That is, blow fresh air INTO the painting area. If the only exit is through your hole in the wall, that's where the air will flow out. This means you won't have the paint fumes moving towards your fan, possibly causing interesting results. Next, I would filter both the air in and air out. Easiest method? How about a furnace filter. They're *very* cheap and designed for filtering dust and such. This should keep your fan from blowing dust into your paint area and your paint from blowing onto your neighbor's car. Finally, I think I would use a box-like structure for the outgoing air. Basically, make a hole in the wall. Extend the hole so it's an 18 inch long "tunnel". Put furnace filters on both ends of the tunnel. This will give the paint-laden air additional opportunity to settle. I don't know if any of this is sufficient. But lacking any other real answers, this is what I would do. -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w) Showpage Software, Inc. 435 Ford Rd, Suite 315 St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com>
Subject: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? 1
>Sounds like a good idea to me! I'd probably try using clear coat from >Sherman Williams or somewhere (just don't spray the color). I'd clean >the AL with SW Ultra Clean or similar to get the wax off from the >polishing process first. Try it on a large sheet of scrap AL and >see what happens. Also do a bend test on the AL scrap. Most of the items you listed that were clear coated were pretty thick, rigged item. AL, being thin, is constantly bendind and flexing and the coating may begin to crack or chip. This may be why you don't see many natural AL aircraft clearcoated. Just something to think about. Chris Krieg ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Partial compl. kits
Building an RV tail is a really good introduction to the skills needed to build the rest of the airplane. That being said, I think you can save some money by finding a tail kit/tools that someone has given up on. These can often be found at 10% or greater savings. I think it's best if you can find one that's barely been worked on -- in that case if the work isn't up to par you can just buy a few new parts and still come out ahead. Also try to get a recent kit -- the improvements Van has made in the last year will save you TONS of time over a kit that was manufactured earlier. And I STRONGLY recommend getting an experienced RV builder to look at any partially completed kit unless it's not far enough along that you couldn't scrap what's been done if need be. And bear in mind that people who have given up early in the project may not have great building skills.... Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: "Christopher Krieg" <christopher_krieg(at)aoce.austin.apple.com>
App-Message-Id:
Subject: Polished Alum. under clearcoat? 1
>Sounds like a good idea to me! I'd probably try using clear coat from >Sherman Williams or somewhere (just don't spray the color). I'd clean >the AL with SW Ultra Clean or similar to get the wax off from the >polishing process first. Try it on a large sheet of scrap AL and >see what happens. Also do a bend test on the AL scrap. Most of the items you listed that were clear coated were pretty thick, rigged item. AL, being thin, is constantly bendind and flexing and the coating may begin to crack or chip. This may be why you don't see many natural AL aircraft clearcoated. Just something to think about. Chris Krieg ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Mumert" <Dave.Mumert(at)cadvision.com>
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Explosion Proof Fans
> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 02:31:00 UT > From: "Terence Gannon" <msn.com!Terence_Gannon(at)matronics.com> > To: "RV-LIST" > Subject: RV-List: Explosion Proof Fans > Reply-to: rv-list(at)matronics.com > I'm now heading into my first priming, and my spray tent is ready to > go...except for one last detail, that is a method of evacuating the fumes. I > guess I'm reluctant to use the garden variety 'Nutone' or some such thing, and > have gone in seach of an "explosion proof" fan...ie. one that uses a sealed > motor with no possibility of a spark, and a low static blade. > > The problem is, of course, that these things run at a pretty high capacity, > and are quite pricey...$500 Canadian. I was wondering if anybody has any > ideas as a less expensive source of supply, or something that they've finished > with, and might be willing to part with for a reasonable sum. > > What with all the priming discussion, I realize not everybody is interested in > this discussion...feel free to send replies to me directly, if you so choose! > > Terry in Calgary > S/N 24414 > "Working on Empennage" > > PS. You read the title right! Turns out that's what they call these things > in the Alberta oil patch, primarily for the well site applications where's the > possibility of explosive gas...I figure if it's safe for that application, it > might just work for my lil' old spray tent. > > Hi Terry The agricultural industry also uses explosion proof fans for ventilating pig barns. Try at the UFA Co-op (United Farmers of Alberta). They are on 1 Street SW between 42 and 50 Avenue. That is EAST of McLeod Trail and south of 42 avenue. They have lots of good stuff usually at good prices. It is a farmers outlet so most city folks don't know it is there. These fans are usually not very pretty and will probably move too much air. They are built using a sealed moter and a metal (Aluminum) fan with self closing shutters. Princess Auto on 32 Avenue NE may also have them. I just bought a DeVilbiss 3/8 air drill at Sears for $39.00. It was marked down to 49.99 and I got a Scratch-and-Save coupon worh another 20%. The same drill with Sears brand is over $100. See Ya Dave Dave Mumert mumertd(at)cadvision.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 19:16:11 -0800 From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter) Subject: Re: RV-List: Partial compl. kits >As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly >completed (90% etc..) tail kits that are for sale for not much more than the >price of the parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck of >a jump start on the project and maybe save a few dollars. On the other side >I realize that I may not be a very good judge of the quality of work that >has been completed (although I think I could get some good help). Also, >there is the question of the 51% rule etc.. Is it important to begin your >learning curve on the empenage? I would sure appreciate hearing from some of >you builders that may have started out this way and how is has worked out >for you. I wonder if there may be some important issues I havn't considered. >Thanks in advance. > I know of a local builder that purchased a partially completed empennage. It had been built by an A & P and, supposedly, was of superior workmanship. I felt bad for the purchaser since I had recommended he buy the empennage; I hadn't seen it but since the builder was an A & P it had to be well built, right??? When he got it home he first found that the plans weren't there and and then found that the workmanship was very poor. As a result he lost interest in completing the RV. He's still going to build, though. A friend of his is almost finished with a Rebel so he'll soon start on a Rebel. So, my recommendation is that you ask a local RV builder to check out any potential empennage kits with you. It's really frustrating to have to disassemble part of an empennage to repair a faux pas done by someone else; it's bad enough to fix your own mistakes. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 26, 1996
Subject: Re: Partial compl. kits
>As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly >completed (90% etc..) tail kits that are for sale for not much more than the >price of the parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck of >a jump start on the project and maybe save a few dollars. On the other side It certainly would save time; but not a huge amount. I spent 240 hours on my emp kit, my friend spent 225. This probably represents about 8%-12% of the time that a first time builder will spend on the project. I wrestled with this as well, and in the end bought the kit from Van's. I'm glad I did. IMO what I learned building (and screwing up on) the tail kit helped prepare me, at least psychologically, for building the wing spars and other "critical" parts. There are so many questions that came up about what is "good/ok/unacceptable" that I'd be uncomfortable using someone else's work without knowing how conservative they might be. There are lots of things hidden from view in the tail, and while probably fine, would still worry me a tad. I tend to be very conservative - your mileage may vary. >there is the question of the 51% rule etc.. Is it important to begin your >learning curve on the empenage? I would sure appreciate hearing from some of I don't feel the emp is any less critical than any other part, but the pieces tend to be less expensive to replace and I'd rather "practice" on them than on the wing spar. -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 26, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Majordomo results: Majordomo re
> >Anyone else getting these? > >On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 majordomo(at)matronics.com wrote a lot of these: > >> -- >> >> >>>> -- >> END OF COMMANDS >> > Yup, literally hundreds of them. How do we stop them???? John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: alanw(at)netspace.net.au (Alan Williams)
Subject: Re: Majordomo results: Majordomo re
Yes - looks like hundreds of them!!! > >Anyone else getting these? > >On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 majordomo(at)matronics.com wrote a lot of these: > >> -- >> >> >>>> -- >> END OF COMMANDS >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: Ronald Vandervort <rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Summary of RV project
Am just beginning. Am doing an RV-6 and RV-6A simultaniously. Am retired and live on airpark with 3 other RV builders on the field. I'm going to have to hurry to catch up to them. They have been at it for two years. Two of those three will be flying this summer. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Partial compl. kits
As a current builder I would be reluctant to recommend_anyone_buy a completed empennage kit to start their project for several reasons: It is by far the cheapest of the subkits and a good way to find if building the RV is really suited to you without a large expenditure of money. For this reason and also because of the improvements Vans is constantly making in the kits and the really reasonable price increases, I would also recommend you not buy more than the next subkit you need at any one time. These empennage kits that are for sale are evidence that some "builders" do find the project is not for them. The question then is why not? Too much time involved? (Probably not bad; most likely they were very careful and built it well.) Too difficult? (I don't think I'd want this one holding up the back of my RV.) Not comfortable with their work? (This one should probably be sold for scrap aluminum prices.) If I were really going to buy a finished kit I'd want to know why it was being sold and have someone knowledgeable in metal aircraft construction and RV's in particular look at it. Assuming you have not done this kind of work before, you are going to have to learn metal working skills somewhere. Unless you buy the already built Phlogiston(?) spars (I'd rather spend the $800 on something else for my RV), your critical wing spars become the first thing you build! I would not want to do this. Having already built the empennage though, I felt very comfortable doing this task. This is just an ego thing with me, but when my RV is done, I want to say that I built it,_all of it_. Not that I won't need extra hands along the way, but I'll have been in charge of the whole thing. Whatever you decide to do, consider this. You mention starting the_big_project, and it is a big project. It helps a lot to constantly think of it as a lot of little projects, each of which when you complete you can find satisfaction with. I think many of those kits that are for sale are by builders who are looking at the_big_project. Because I have two teenage children and a very time intensive job ten months of the year as well as many honeydo jobs, I started this project with the idea that it would be a five year project minimally. I can do that because I'm doing it for the fun of the project as well as to have a great airplane when I'm finished. Without this mindset, I'm sure I'd be better off looking for a good used Grumman Yankee of some such thing instead. These are my opinions only based on my motivation for building. You need to look at why you want to build, your available time, your resources, etc., etc., etc. I'm sure you'll get some different opinions from others on this list and that's why this is such a great resource to have also! You wrote: >As I prepare to start the big project (RV-6) I keep hearing of mostly >completed (90% etc..) tail kits that are for sale for not much more than the >price of the parts. On the plus side I see this as a way to get one heck of >a jump start on the project and maybe save a few dollars. On the other side >I realize that I may not be a very good judge of the quality of work that >has been completed (although I think I could get some good help). Also, >there is the question of the 51% rule etc.. Is it important to begin your >learning curve on the empenage? I would sure appreciate hearing from some of >you builders that may have started out this way and how is has worked out >for you. I wonder if there may be some important issues I havn't considered. >Thanks in advance. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: gwhite(at)niagara.com (gary white)
Subject: Re: Majordomo results: Majordomo re
i> yes, i'm getting lots of these too !! >Anyone else getting these? > >On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 majordomo(at)matronics.com wrote a lot of these: > >> -- >> >> >>>> -- >> END OF COMMANDS >> > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Partial compl. kits
Date: Jan 27, 1996
I'd like to add something. Building this airplane is *fun*. I am having the time of my life. The amount of time you save buy purchasing a completed empennage isn't worth what you would lose. I would buy a new one from Van's. -J -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w) Showpage Software, Inc. 435 Ford Rd, Suite 315 St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: "ALFRED B. WERTZ" <71674.332(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: intrest
Hi....I'm an rv6-A.builder.. would like to know more about your group. regards..... Al. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: CAP10ZOOM(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 1996
Subject: Re: Majordomo...blah, blah, blah
Would somone please attend to the mailing list so that the 100 plus error messages that have been dumped into my mailbox the last day or so will be the last??? This is REALLY annoying. Everybody loves to get mail... but this is ridiculous. Jim Campbell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HowardRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 1996
Subject: Question
What causes jillons of "majordomo results"? I logged on, went to the"reading room" and finally shut the thing off?? Just curious Howard Kidwell howardrv(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Zilik(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 27, 1996
Subject: Fuel Tanks
I am almost ready to pro-seal and rivet my tanks together. The ribs as they came from Van's have a little oxidation on them and since they are not to be primed I was wondering how to treat them. 1) Should I alumi-prep them to remove the oxidation? 2) Should I Alodine them after alumi-prep? 3) Should I just clean the parts real good and put the tanks together? Also, due to horror stories, I plan on using the pro-seal only and any suggestions on the proper way to leak free tanks would be appreciated. Gary Zilik Riveting tanks RV-6A s/n 22993 zilik(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Summary of RV project
>Am just beginning. Am doing an RV-6 and RV-6A simultaniously. Am >retired and live on airpark with 3 other RV builders on the field. I'm >going to have to hurry to catch up to them. They have been at it for two >years. Two of those three will be flying this summer. > Ron, I've heard of people that can't make up their mind but-----. Do you have room for the -8; maybe you'll want to build it, too. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: sburch(at)Infi.Net (stan burchett)
Subject: Re: Majordomo re
>-- > >>>>> -- >END OF COMMANDS Are these mailings going to continue? 140 yesterday and 180 today. Stan ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com (Doug Weiler)
Subject: Re: Fuel Tanks
>I am almost ready to pro-seal and rivet my tanks together. The ribs as they >came from Van's have a little oxidation on them and since they are not to be >primed I was wondering how to treat them. > >1) Should I alumi-prep them to remove the oxidation? > >2) Should I Alodine them after alumi-prep? > >3) Should I just clean the parts real good and put the tanks together? > >Also, due to horror stories, I plan on using the pro-seal only and any >suggestions on the proper way to leak free tanks would be appreciated. > >Gary Zilik Riveting tanks Gary: Since I just completed my tanks with great success, I'll give you my 2 cents worth. Personally I would just justr scotchbrite pads to clean off the corrosion and not worry about it. I guess you could aluma-prep and then alodine, but I'm not totally convinced that alodining tanks is such a great idea. Some of our South Dakota builder's who are burning ethanol have done this. Scotchbrite and or sand (400 grip) all mating parts. Clean with Naptha or Coleman fuel using "Scott-Free" lint-less paper towels (should be available at most grocery stores). No finger prints allowed... keep it sterile. Use rubber gloves with no talc. Mix Proseal 1 Tablespoon to 1/2 teaspoon. Use lots of it. Seal especially the outer corners of the tanks. Be generous and you should have good results. Mine were leak free and the whole job was not near as bad as I thought it would have been. Good luck -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Doug Weiler, pres. MN Wing Van's AirForce, RV-4 wings in progress = 347 Krattley Lane = Hudson, WI 54016 = 715-386-1239 = email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gdpratt(at)dmi.net
Date: Jan 27, 1996
Subject: Ed Bundy
Ed, Read your post (following) and noted you live in Eagle, ID. My folks live in Eagle (off Beacon Light Rd.) and I live off Glenwood by the river in Boise. I would love to see your project (since I'm in the neighborhood all the time)! Please e-mail or call me if you would like to show it off. Gordon Pratt GDPratt(at)dmi.net 376-7666 On Fri, 26 Jan 1996, aol.com!EBundy2620(at)matronics.com wrote: > >>This is good, real world, news...thanks! I have never even held a rivet gun >>or >>know how loud they are...have only heard them on the Orndorf (sp?) videos. > >If you're worried about noise you probably don't want to get an oilless >compressor. They practically wake the dead. > >>manner...letsee...how do I describe this...a bunch of lollipops off a main >>street, each having eight houses around it...geezzzz...it's a California >>too-many-people kinda thing). So, my neighbors can not only see whats in >the >>garage everytime I open it but hear it as well. >>pull my truck in, hide the project, and deaden the sound all at once. > >Where 'bouts in CA do you live? My wife and I are recent escapee's. We >lived in the San Fernando valley in So. Cal. Got all my flight training at >Van Nuys. Boy, when you learn to fly there, everywhere else is a breeze! > 3.5 years ago we moved to Idaho (a little town called Eagle, about 20nm >North of Boise. We absolutely love it here. We live on 5 acres, and the >nearest house is 200 yds away. I don't have to worry too much about noise... > > >>The workshop will be about 9' x 17'. Is that big enough? The extra bedroom >>will be storing finished components . When final assy. comes along I >will >>knock down the workshop and park on the street till completion. > >It'll be okay for the wings and tail. I built my wings and tail in a spare >bedroom (very understanding wife) with 8X12 working space, not including >tables, etc. It was VERY tight. I think that would be the absolute minimum. > >I don't know if you can build your fuse there. The fuse takes up 4X15 during >construction, and you need room to get around it and work on it. As long as >you can park on the street you may need to do that when you start >construction on the fuse. Believe me, it'll be worth it. I built a 2+ car >garage to build my fuse, and store parts, tools, etc. Both cars are out in >the snow until the airplane's done... > >Which one are you going to build? >-- Ed Bundy > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gdpratt(at)dmi.net
Date: Jan 27, 1996
Subject: Re: Explosion Proof Fans
On Fri, 26 Jan 96, "Terence Gannon" wrote: >I'm now heading into my first priming, and my spray tent is ready to >go...except for one last detail, that is a method of evacuating the fumes. I >guess I'm reluctant to use the garden variety 'Nutone' or some such thing, and >have gone in seach of an "explosion proof" fan...ie. one that uses a sealed >motor with no possibility of a spark, and a low static blade. ETC, ETC. Here's a thought: Try a squirrel-cage blower installed to *Pressurize* the spray booth and cover the exhaust holes with filters. That way, the motor is working in clean, filtered air outside the booth. Gordon Pratt Lurking ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: crazer(at)midwest.net (Chester Razer)
Subject: Insanity?
My wife just reminded me that I was insane to be building an airplane I had never seen. Yes that's right. Wings 75% finished and fuse kit 6 weeks from delivery and I have yet to see my first 6A other than photos. If anyone in 6A finds themselves x-country thru Sparta Illinois (SAR) please stop by for lunch on me. Fitting Fuse attach angle on 2nd tank and prepping for final tank assembly and sealing. Chet Razer crazer(at)midwest.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 27, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Exhaust system
First of all, is the list back on line? Things sure seem to be slow. Guess everyone is out working on their planes I've been spending the last few days changing exhaust systems on my RV-6. I'm replacing the Vetterman 4-pipe mild steel with a Vetterman stainless cross over system. It's been slow going, non-heated hanger and typical Nebraska winter. The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the 4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. I bought the 4-pipe steel because I figured the RV-6 with a wood prop could use a little more weight up front and I already had a lot of money tied up in exhaust systems. (I had purchased a Tolle cross-over system which I decided I wouldn't use on my airplane because of all of the trouble with them.) The 4-pipe mild steel Vetterman was a low cost alternative. Anyway, I've got the cross-over on and am working on the two heat muffs. Looking forward to more heat! The 4-pipe Vetterman system is for sale if anyone is interested. I'd imagine it would be best for those living where the temps are more moderate. The pipes are drilled for four exhaust probes and are in good shape. They have 200 hours on them. These pipes fit the O-320 with the Dynafocal engine mounts. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <elanora(at)zip.com.au>
Date: Jan 28, 1996
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
> I've been spending the last few days changing exhaust systems on my RV-6. > I'm replacing the Vetterman 4-pipe mild steel with a Vetterman stainless > cross over system. It's been slow going, non-heated hanger and typical > Nebraska winter. > The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the > 4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat > muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now > instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. Bob, I'm replying on the list because others may be interested in my questions. 1. Are you drawing cabin heat air from the high pressure side of the baffles (with attendant risk of CO fumes), or from another source? 2. Are you using carby heat? If so, where do you draw the hot air from? Regards Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 1996
From: "Thomas N. Martin" <103212.65(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RV-4 data
Tom Martin R.R.#8 St.Thomas,Ontario N5P-3T3 519-631-1369 MODEL: RV-4 DATE FINISHED: May 25,1995 TOTAL TIME: 82hrs ENGINE: I0-360 Lycoming PROP: Warnke 70-74 plus Landoll harmonic balancer STARTER: Mark Landoll ALTERNATOR:Landoll BATTERY: RG concorde EXHAUST: Vetterman 4 pipe SS ELEVATOR TRIM: manual FLAPS: manual BRAKES: std TIRE PRESSURE: 25-30 PANEL: basic 6 flight inst., terra com, telex intercom, 360apolloGPS, EI OAT/CHT/EGt, AVspark exhaust sensor(never leave home without it), vans' digital tach. plus compass and standard oil pressure and temp. all above fits in standard panel with some room left LIGHTING:Next year PAINT:Black, trim not yet applied Weight: empty 982lbs INTERIOR:Grey with Lauritsen seats and canopy cover(very nice) INSURANCE: Avemco Cruise; 2500 RPM 8000MSL 180 mph true fuel burn 7.5g/hr at 2000 ft I can redline the airspeed,213, at 2800rpm straight and level PROBLEMS: I am just painting now and spent a lot of time making little changes to cowlings and farings during first six months of flight. Engine failure at 60 hrs do to failure of rebuilt bendix fuel infector. I was on a test flight and landed safely at airport. No problems wiht plane except sink rate with out engine is at least double idle sink rate. This is important as it was greater then I was led to believe from literature. I was not afraid at the time but it took me a week to "pass" the seat cushion ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N63tx(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 1996
Subject: Re: Ice, fuel, primers
Suggestion on checking the fuel tanks.............. Use the "balloon method"....i.e., seal all the outlets. you can use al lines and plastic hoses, and over the filler holes, DUCT TAPE will usually seal. Then, perhaps using a valve in line... blow up a balloon (or condom) to about 8 to 12 inches and let it sit. Ifn you got no leaks.....balloon should stay same size, with allowances for baroemetic pressure. Good luck, Marvin N63Tx(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 1996
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: HS-610 and HS-614
Listers -- I spent yesterday cutting and filing the HS-610 and HS-614s for the horizontal stab. It went well, except I'm wondering about one thing...why is it that the '614, when complete, has a flange that extends a little past the the bend line, whereas the '610 is cut straight at the bend line (more or less anyway). I would have thought one or the other technique would have been good for both. Van need not worry, my intention is stick to the plans (EXACTLY), it was more a question of curiosity. Back to the shop! Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Horizontal Stabilizer (AND LOVING IT!)" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Jan 28, 1996
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
snip... >> The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the >> 4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat >> muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now >> instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. > >Bob, I'm replying on the list because others may be interested in my >questions. >1. Are you drawing cabin heat air from the high pressure side of the >baffles (with attendant risk of CO fumes), or from another source? >2. Are you using carby heat? If so, where do you draw the hot air >from? >Regards >Peter Bennett >Sydney Australia >RV6 skinning fuselage Peter: What gives you the idea that there is a "attendant risk of CO fumes" by taking air from the high pressure side of the baffle? This is common practice... ....(IMHO)The large fresh airflow on the high pressure side of the baffle makes the possibility of introducing CO quite remote. Any leak from the engine will be forced down and out the negative side. The only way you could introduce exhaust gas from the engine compartment would be to have a massive failure of the baffle structure and that still may not allow CO into the heat inlet. You are more likely to introduce CO from a crack in the exhaust stack inside the heat muff. As far as carb heat, I have a 4 pipe system and Vetterman offers a small muff that fits over the #1 stack(or which ever pipe you choose) and can be used to for this purpose. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: HS-610 and HS-614
You wrote: > >Listers -- I spent yesterday cutting and filing the HS-610 and HS-614s >for the horizontal stab. It went well, except I'm wondering about one >thing...why is it that the '614, when complete, has a flange that >extends a little past the the bend line, whereas the '610 is cut >straight at the bend line (more or less anyway). I would have thought >one or the other technique would have been good for both. > >Van need not worry, my intention is stick to the plans (EXACTLY), it >was more a question of curiosity. > >Back to the shop! > >Terry in Calgary >S/N 24414 >"Horizontal Stabilizer (AND LOVING IT!)" > Hi Terry, You doubtless have noted that the 614 is larger. It is the one that goes on the bottom when the horiz stab is mounted. The 614 gets drilled for bolts and the extra length is for support and clearance of the bolts. I forget what drawing it is, but if you look into the drawings for the fuselage construction you will see this. I think your decision to keep it 'by the book' is a wise one. I am trying to do the same thing. Last time I looked I didn't see a degree in aeronautical(?) engineering next to my name and I sure don't feel qualified to design my own. Best of luck to you. Bill Costello -- ___ _______________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \______________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 28, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
>snip... >>> The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the >>> 4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat >>> muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now >>> instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. >> >>Bob, I'm replying on the list because others may be interested in my >>questions. >>1. Are you drawing cabin heat air from the high pressure side of the >>baffles (with attendant risk of CO fumes), or from another source? >>2. Are you using carby heat? If so, where do you draw the hot air >>from? >>Regards >>Peter Bennett >>Sydney Australia >>RV6 skinning fuselage >Peter: > >What gives you the idea that there is a "attendant risk of CO fumes" by taking >air from the high pressure side of the baffle? This is common practice... >....(IMHO)The large fresh airflow on the high pressure side of the baffle >makes the possibility of introducing CO quite remote. Any leak from the >engine will be forced down and out the negative side. The only way you >could introduce exhaust gas from the engine compartment would be to have a >massive failure of the baffle structure and that still may not allow CO into >the heat inlet. You are more likely to introduce CO from a crack in the >exhaust stack inside the heat muff. > >As far as carb heat, I have a 4 pipe system and Vetterman offers a small muff >that fits over the #1 stack(or which ever pipe you choose) and can be used >to for this purpose. > >Regards: >Rusty Gossard >N47RG RV-4 Flying > >Rusty: Much better answer than I gave. Bottom line, a very low risk installation. How much RPM drop do you get with the little muff for carb heat? I improved the heat gathering ability of both the carb muff and cabin muff by wraping an expanded mesh product around the pipes. The material is an "aluminumized" steel mesh sold at Wal Mart and it's used to cover rain gutters to keep leaves out. I beleive you get about 15' for 5 or 6 bucks. I cut the appropriate lengths and layered them on top of each other. I compressed a lot of layers with some hose clamps, wrapped safety wire around the material then removed the clamps. This improved heating somewhat (not as much as I'd hoped, but you could notice the difference). I plan on using this under all of the muffs on the SS crossover I have on the plane now. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: ChaniK(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 28, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-4 data
You would have gotten much better engine out cruise if you had stopped the prop. It's a curious effect, but a windmilling prop has greater drag than a solid disk of the same diameter. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: "Mark D Hiatt" <OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com>
Subject: Checking In.
I got to thinking, with everyone introducing themselves here, before the big looping trouble, that I never did. I'm Mark Hiatt, Aviation Forum Manager on the new Microsoft Network. I'm responsible for kit NB1382, which is probably going to become an RV-6A. Anyway, at this point I'm an NB, but hope to get my paperwork back, soon. I don't think I've got quite enough hair on my, er, chest for a taildragger at this point, and one day my longsuffering wife Kathie will probably want to take her training in it, too. Seems best for me at this point to keep as many things as I can as simple as I can. With that in mind, I'm leaning heavily (pardon the irony) to the 320-series engines, with a fixed-pitch prop, tilting canopy, and probably no more than day/night VFR outfitting. I live in Lincoln, Nebraska, and have been known to buy gas and burgers for folks who fly into LNK on their way around the country. That goes especially for you, Mr.Skinner, as I figure how much gas can you burn in half an hour, getting here? :-\ I'd be very interested in seeing any of the lists airplanes if you're ever in the neighborhood, and talking with any Nebraska/Iowa/Kansas -area builders, especially of RV-6s. Sure is nice to have something to do while the weather is bad, isn't it? Mark D Hiatt OttoPilot_MSN Aviation Forum Manager, The Microsoft Network. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Mumert" <Dave.Mumert(at)cadvision.com>
Date: Jan 28, 1996
Subject: HVLP Spray Guns
I was browsing around through some woodworking pages and found a couple of sites on HVLP spray guns Check out Apollo at http://orion.adnc.com/~websites/apollo/ also Lex-Aire at http://www1.usa1.com/~stephenb/2002.html both these companies have guns which use a great deal less air than the DeVilbiss. Both claim to be able to use a 3 HP compressor. (8 CFM at 45 PSI) The Lex-Aire is available for $349 for Internet users. Dave Mumert mumertd(at)cadvision.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Heat-Carb muff efficiency
Bob: (responding to carb heat question) I get a slight RPM drop when I apply carb heat of about 50 RPM. I really watch the carb temp readout on my engine scanner where you see a rise of 10 degrees f or so. I'm not too concerned about carb ice with the lycoming...they tend, by design, not to be as prone to the problem as a continental. I use it more as a prevention of impact ice on the filter when I'm in a situation where that may happen. I modified the carb heat inlet on Van's airbox to give a more positive seal. As for cabin heat...I flew yesterday morning and it was 21 degrees f on the ground when I took off. I didn't even wear a jacket. I have a 2 tube stock muff on a vetterman 4 pipe system and I was warm. I'm surprise you have had all of the problems getting heat in your 6. (must be something about those wide body RV's :-) )I've flown at 11 degrees f (with jacket, no gloves) and was warm enough to have fun. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
Bob, We put Larry's stainless cross-over on our second plane with two heat muffs and have been more than satisfied with the amount of heat we get. Went flying last week when it was about 25 on the ground and we were very comfortable in the plane. One of the tricks is to drill fewer holes in the outlet of the muff than in the inlet. This gives the air time to heat up before it blows through. If you use Robbins Wings muffs, pop rivet the ends on. We had a very cold trip to Lakeland last spring when the ends fell out of the muff. Sure was glad to get to Florida! Becki Orndorff >First of all, is the list back on line? Things sure seem to be slow. Guess >everyone is out working on their planes > > I've been spending the last few days changing exhaust systems on my RV-6. >I'm replacing the Vetterman 4-pipe mild steel with a Vetterman stainless >cross over system. It's been slow going, non-heated hanger and typical >Nebraska winter. > The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the >4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat >muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now >instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. > I bought the 4-pipe steel because I figured the RV-6 with a wood prop >could use a little more weight up front and I already had a lot of money >tied up in exhaust systems. (I had purchased a Tolle cross-over system which >I decided I wouldn't use on my airplane because of all of the trouble with >them.) The 4-pipe mild steel Vetterman was a low cost alternative. Anyway, >I've got the cross-over on and am working on the two heat muffs. Looking >forward to more heat! > The 4-pipe Vetterman system is for sale if anyone is interested. I'd >imagine it would be best for those living where the temps are more moderate. >The pipes are drilled for four exhaust probes and are in good shape. They >have 200 hours on them. These pipes fit the O-320 with the Dynafocal engine >mounts. >Bob Skinner RV-6 > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: True Airspeed
On 1/24/96 Bob Skinner wrote a reply on how to calculate the true calibrated airspeed of your aircraft using the ground speed data off the GPS or Loran, and flying three headings at 90 degree increments. The formula he gave did not take into account the effects of density altitude and outside air temperature. Does anyone know how to translate the results from this formula,(true, calibrated airspeed at a given altitude, barometric pressure, and tempurature), into a true, calibrated airspeed for STANDARD DAY conditions? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: "A. Reichert" <reichera(at)clark.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage
On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 aol.com!DerFlieger(at)matronics.com wrote: [...] > I don't have a spiffy online service for my email. I have no capability to > do multiple deletes. Plus, I must do 2 mouse operations for each delete. I > guess I spent more than a half hour this weekend deleting one by one these > majordomo things and now the message not deliverable stuff. Shouldn't these > messages be routed to you instead of the net? Or back to the sender? Who > else gives a damn? Not attempting to overstep Matt, but the short answers are yes, no, and probably quite a few of us. Let me explain, if I may. I also have Majordomo running on my machine for another mailing list. Matt had already explained that someone had tried to subscribe "rv-list-request" to the majordomo list server. This action created a mail loop in the system. The server was mailing stuff out to the list. Since rv-liat-request was also on the list, it mailed a coy of an item back to itself and then reprocessed it to mail it out again. Any other stuff that we sent in also got inserted into the loop. Since majordomo saw each outgoing message as input immediately after a send, I would suspect that his system was going nuts processing all this stuff! He had previously stated that he had trouble logging in to stop the loop. If you examine the header in a message from the rv-list, you will see that he has an Errors-To: line in the header which should catch any errors in mailing, such as bounces due to full mailboxes or unknown users, back to another address. Unfortunately, this loop, as far as majordomo was concerned, was not an error. It was doing exactly as it was told. (1) It mailed out a message. (2) It mailed one copy of the message to it's own address. (3) The message showed up as input to majordomo. (4) It processed the message. (5) It mailed out the message... See where I'm going? Now then, yes, today we are seeing two more items come back, one that says that a mailbox was full, the other is some uuencoded letter that comes from a bounce. Why isn't this going to Matt's Errors-To: address? Because the recipients' mail servers don't process the recipients' end that Matt has no control over. - Alan Reichert Wannabe RV-6 builder and fellow majordomo administrator. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Re: Ice, fuel, primers
>From: compuserve.com!70743.2727(at)matronics.com (COROTEC) > >Fellow builders and flyers, > >I would appreciate your input on the following: > >1. I have not pressure tested my fuel tanks. Should I? Do they usually leak on >first check? (Note: I did NOT use slosh - only pro-seal per Van's >recommendation). You should pressure check the tanks. On method is to close off all openings, ie vent & caps, then put a balloon on the vent exit point. Use your compressor set at the lowest possible pressure setting to blow air into the main fuel line. The pressure souldn't be any more than you would use to inflate the balloon. Cap off the fuel line, then use soapy water to look for leaks. Typically the caps leak a little, but no other leaks should be seen at any other point. >2. I have been using Mar-Hyde 5111 self-etching primer on all my parts >(airplane, that is), prepping with scotchbrite and cleaning with naptha. >Anyone else doing this? Any comments? > >3. The archive indicates some of you regularly fly in IMC. How is the >airframe for icing? The wing LE looks like it would be a poor ice collector, but the >HS looks like it would be a pretty good one.... >bruce stobbe Bruce: The RV Series are not intended to be flown into icing conditions. PERIOD. Are you located in Winstead CT? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Back riveting top wing skin
I back riveted the top wing skin on my left wing Saturday. Looks real nice I must say. Someone on the list mentioned that the Avery tool did not have enough bend. I found that my tool had the same problem. I called Bob Avery and explained that it appeared that the set was a degree or two short to get around the rib flange. Bob said that he had specified 4 degrees +-1 degree for the bend. He sent me a new tool that was bent to 6 degrees and it worked fine. It takes a little skill to hold that long set steady but as the literatue states it takes no skill to buck on the outside. Well it did take a little while to teach my wife not to let the bar bounce like you do when bucking to form a shop head. If anyone bought the set and it bends the rivets towards the rib web I would talk to Bob and he will fix it. Or if you have a torch, Just heat it and wack it another 2 degrees or so. Jim Schmidt RV6 Skinning both wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bobveit(at)interserv.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Re: Taildragger FAR
This may be a legal interpretation of the FAR but what will the pilot's insurance company do when he/she files for hull damage and they find out he/she was flying a T-dragger w/o the proper signoff for same? If the pilot is going to invest $20,000 to $40,000 and a couple thousand hours of time building the dream airplane, why on earth would they be so tight(stupid :>)) that they would even consider risking it all with out proper training in a T-dragger? I must have missed something that caused interest in this discussion. It is more interesting than the majordomo notes; however, but not much. :^) Let's all get properly trained to protect our flying machines, our necks and Homebuilders reputations, OK. R. W. ( Bob ) Veit Flying Eagle Estates Airpark bobveit(at)interserv.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
>The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the >4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat >muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now >instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. I for one will be real interested in finding out how much that helps. Is that the same system that Van's advertises as High Country Exhausts? According to the catalog they are the "overwhelming choice of RV builders". I'm heading for the finishing kit now, and I don't know much about the RV exhaust systems except to stay away from the Tolle systems. Any info would be much appreciated. -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: To JIM SCHMIDT
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Jim, stop sending these messages. You are only adding to the problem!!! Talk to the mail admin instead. He sent a not stating what the problem was. Your broadcasting messages just makes the pile deeper. Herman > From root Mon Jan 29 10:16:06 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:35:46 -0600 > From: JIM SCHMIDT <mail.mei.com!JIM.SCHMIDT(at)matronics.com> > Subject: Majordomo results: Majordomo results: RV-List: Majordomo re > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com > Precedence: junk > Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > -Reply > > stop flooding the list with this > > Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: RV4/IO360??
Somebody posted a summary of an RV4 with an IO360. I accidentally deleted the post while trying to purge the 150 "majordomo" error messages. A couple of questions? Is this a 200hp angle valve 360?? If so, how difficult was it to fit? What kind of climb rate are you getting? What kind of fuel burn are you getting at full/climb power? Was it difficult to find/expensive? thanks John ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
>I back riveted the top wing skin on my left >wing Saturday. Looks real nice I must say. > I also back riveted my wing shins except for that area near the trailing edge where the back riveting set didn't have enough bend. The skins turned out nice and I was very pleased with the result. However, I started using a technique I think was mentioned by Don Wentz (??) that essentilally obviates the need to back rivet; rivet the normal way and then use a piece of wood ( I used a 3/4"x 3/4" x 12" piece of oak) and lightly tap the rivets from the shop head side with a hammer. The indentations that normally occur from front riveting disappear and you get a nice smooth surface, and it only takes a couple minutes. I've done my whole fuselage this way and all the skins are just as smooth as my back riveted wing skins. >Well it did take a little while to teach my >wife not to let the bar bounce like you do >when bucking to form a shop head. This is one real advantage of back riveting; the skill level of the bucker is almost nil, not that I would tell my wife she has nil skill... I found the Avery back riveting set a potentially wicked tool and it took a lot of concentration and skill to make it work well. For this reason I now favor the simpler "wood" approach. Rich, RV 4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Heat-Carb muff efficiency
>Bob: >(responding to carb heat question) >I get a slight RPM drop when I apply carb heat of about 50 RPM. I really >watch the carb temp readout on my engine scanner where you see a rise of 10 >degrees f >or so. I'm not too concerned about carb ice with the lycoming...they tend, by >design, not to be as prone to the problem as a continental. I use it more as a >prevention of impact ice on the filter when I'm in a situation where that may >happen. I modified the carb heat inlet on Van's airbox to give a more positive >seal. > >As for cabin heat...I flew yesterday morning and it was 21 degrees f on the >ground when I took off. I didn't even wear a jacket. I have a 2 tube stock >muff on a vetterman 4 pipe system and I was warm. I'm surprise you have had >all of the problems getting heat in your 6. (must be something about those >wide body RV's :-) )I've flown at 11 degrees f (with jacket, no gloves) and >was warm enough to have fun. > >Regards: >Rusty Gossard >N47RG RV-4 Flying > >Rusty: Combination of wide body, low metabolism, I guess:) Vetterman doesn't have a dual muff for the 4-pipe on the 6. One thing that really helps on the 6 (in the winter) is having sun come through the canopy. Makes things a lot more comfortable. When the sun goes down or behand a cloud, the temps drop big time. I'd sure like to test the dual muffs on the cross-over but it's -8 degrees and the winds blowing 11 kts. Yikes! Guess I'll work on the 6-A. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
>Bob, > We put Larry's stainless cross-over on our second plane with two heat >muffs and have been more than satisfied with the amount of heat we get. >Went flying last week when it was about 25 on the ground and we were very >comfortable in the plane. One of the tricks is to drill fewer holes in the >outlet of the muff than in the inlet. This gives the air time to heat up >before it blows through. If you use Robbins Wings muffs, pop rivet the ends >on. We had a very cold trip to Lakeland last spring when the ends fell out >of the muff. Sure was glad to get to Florida! > Becki Orndorff > Becki: Thanks for the reply. Do you have the dual muffs hooked together in series or does each one go to a cabin outlet. When you pop riveted the ends on, I assume you don't fasten the two halves with the screws. Would grinding off the flanges for the screws make installation and removal a little easier? Did you use anything wrapped around your pipes under the muffs to increase surface area. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
JimX_Thompson(at)ccm.jf.intel.com, randall(at)edt.com
Subject: Pacific City Airport -- SAFE!
I talked to Betty Stansbury at Oregon Aeronautics and she told me that there was a town meeting at Pacific City and there was almost universal support for the airport. The "close the airport" faction is apparently pretty small. In addition, the letters received by the Aeronautics division helped confirm that the pilot community is aware of the potential problems and willing to rise up in support when needed. Currently work is being done to address the safety issues, and she indicated that support would be asked for in the future, probably in terms of education and also financially, as some alternatives may involve the purchase of new equipment or even real estate. Thanks to all who responded. Randall Henderson randall(at)edt.com ~ ~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Tanks
>I am almost ready to pro-seal and rivet my tanks together. The ribs as they >came from Van's have a little oxidation on them and since they are not to be >primed I was wondering how to treat them. > >1) Should I alumi-prep them to remove the oxidation? > >2) Should I Alodine them after alumi-prep? > >3) Should I just clean the parts real good and put the tanks together? > >Also, due to horror stories, I plan on using the pro-seal only and any >suggestions on the proper way to leak free tanks would be appreciated. > >Gary Zilik Riveting tanks I alimi-prepped because it's an easy way to get most of the dirt off of there before doing the REAL cleaning. I alodyned for a couple of reasons. One being that I knew I'd scotch-brited off some of that protective layer. Also, even though I will have fuel in the tanks which will displace moisture, It's not going to be in there for a long time, and in the meantime they're stored in a cold, somewhat damp garage. BUT Alodyne does leave a chalky residue if you let it "dwell" for any length of time, and that might interfere with the adhesion of the pro-seal. You could deal with this in two ways: 1) just do a "brief" alodyne (30 seconds or so of "dwell" time before rinsing), or 2) Rivet the tanks together, then slosh with alodyne afterwards. You might want to NOT have the fuel sender in when you do this however. I did it the first way on one tank, the second way on the other. I think if I had it to do over I'd do them the second way. Both tanks passed the "balloon" test. Randall Henderson RV-6. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Re: Carb/Cabin Heat
>(responding to carb heat question) >I get a slight RPM drop when I apply carb heat of about 50 RPM. I really >watch the carb temp readout on my engine scanner where you see a rise of 10 >degrees f or so. I'm not too concerned about carb ice with the lycoming...they tend, >by design, not to be as prone to the problem as a continental. I use it more as a >prevention of impact ice on the filter when I'm in a situation where that may >>happen. I modified the carb heat inlet on Van's airbox to give a more positive seal. I have found that the original carb heat system that Van suggests in his plans is not sufficiently hot enough for solving carb ice problems while flying IFR. The FAR's require certified aircraft to have a 90 degree f rise in carb air when carb heat is applied ( they do not specify under what conditions). After one esperience (with a lycoming engine) in IMC, I was convinced a re-design was in order. What I have done is install a hose adapter on the top of the airbox, using all the original hinge and flap hardware. It is necessary that the flap fit snuggly when closed (or in the alternate air position). The hose is connected to a muff, much like the cabin heat muff, that is located on the crossover portion of the exhaust system, directly over the carburator. Under this muff (as well as the cabin heat muff) I have installed a slightly strecthed out screen door spring that has been painted with high temp exhaust paint. This increases the effective surface area of the exhaust pipe, allowing hotter air to exit. The end result is a inlet air rise of about 60 degrees f while in cruise configuration. Hotter rises occur when idling on the ground. Since installation, I have not had any occurance of carb icing even when airframe icing has occured (with carb heat on). All other occurances of carb ice problems have alway gone away when carb heat was applied. For those of you that are having trouble getting enough heat out of your exhaust pipe heat muffs, try limitig the air leaks in the cabin first. In the RV-6 there is considerable air leak potential from both the flap extension mechanism and the aileron control push rod exit points. Those of you that are still working on your wings and/or fuselage, should consider a method to eliminate the outside air from getting into the cabin floor area. For the aileron push-pull tubes, try constructing a flexible, conical boot that mounts to the outside of the fuselage in the wing root area. Ths could be constructed from a piece of leather or nogahyde (sp) material. Attach to the fuselage with a metal compression ring and screws/nutplates, and to the push-pull tube with a hose clamp. The length of the conical material should be long enough to stretch out for the maximum aileron control movement. The flap extension mechanism hole could be sealed in a similar manner, but it may require that the leather of nagahyde material be glued to the inside skin. A velcro 'zipper' could be installed on both boots to allow better serviceability. In my finished RV-6A, I've had to struggle with stopping all the air leaks from getting out of the large void area under the floor. This results in a cold floor all the time, and drafts that are hard to find and stop. In hindsight, I would definately try to incorporate these changes to eliminate the drafts. The single heat muff (from Van's option catalog) with the door spring adder, supplies enough hot air to warm the cabin area sufficently in the New England area IF the air leaks can be eliminated. Hope these suggestions help anybody planning on flying in the cold latitudes....... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
>> I back riveted the top wing skin on my left > wing Saturday. Looks real nice I must say. > Well it did take a little while to teach my > wife not to let the bar bounce like you do > when bucking to form a shop head. > What type of bar did you use for bucking? Shape/Lbs? Chris cruble(at)cisco.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
> >>The stainless cross-over is really a thing of beauty. I'm replacing the >>4-pipe, hoping that I can generate more heat in the cabin by having a heat >>muff on each pipe (2). I'll be collecting heat off of 4 cylinders now >>instead of one cylinder as I was able to on the 4-pipe system. > >I for one will be real interested in finding out how much that helps. Is >that the same system that Van's advertises as High Country Exhausts? > According to the catalog they are the "overwhelming choice of RV builders". > I'm heading for the finishing kit now, and I don't know much about the RV >exhaust systems except to stay away from the Tolle systems. Any info would >be much appreciated. > >-- Ed Bundy > Ed: Yes, High Country Exhaust is Larry Vetterman. It's a very nice system and Larry is a great person to do business with. (He's a fellow RVer, you know). Yeah, there's a lot of us that wish someone would have tipped us off on the Tolle system. Alan Tolle is very personable and I like him and his wife and they've done a lot for RV's, but after hearing and seeing all of the trouble with his exhaust systems, I sure didn't want to put one on my airplane. By the way, there is a RV-6A here at Lexington that just blew #4 stack after 100 hrs. The weld at the flange completely separated. Anyway, I think you'd be very pleased with the Vetterman system. I'll let you know what I find out about heat production on the new system as soon as I know. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
> > I found the Avery back riveting set a potentially wicked tool and it took > a lot of concentration and skill to make it work well. For this reason I > now favor the simpler "wood" approach. I was able to get really good results with an offset mushroom set. I did bend over a few rivets before I realized I had to over-angle the set to compensate for the direction of the burst from the gun. I back-riveted my top skins this way, as well as a couple of friends' wing skins. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Ice, fuel, primers
> > >>From: compuserve.com!70743.2727(at)matronics.com (COROTEC) > >> >>Fellow builders and flyers, >> >>I would appreciate your input on the following: >> >>1. I have not pressure tested my fuel tanks. Should I? Do they usually leak >on >>first check? (Note: I did NOT use slosh - only pro-seal per Van's >>recommendation). > >You should pressure check the tanks. On method is to close off all openings, >ie vent & caps, then put a balloon on the vent exit point. Use your >compressor set at the lowest possible pressure setting to blow air into the >main fuel line. The pressure souldn't be any more than you would use to >inflate the balloon. Cap off the fuel line, then use soapy water to look for >leaks. Typically the caps leak a little, but no other leaks should be seen at >any other point. > I got nervous about getting near my tanks with the air hose. I sealed over the gas cap with plastic under duct tape then attached a fitting on the vent (1/4" alum tube) and plugged all other holes. Then, I blew up the ballon and slide it over the 1/4" alum tube and taped it on. Just didn't want to take any chances of something going "boom". Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
>I back riveted the top wing skin on my left >wing Saturday. Looks real nice I must say. > >Someone on the list mentioned that the Avery >tool did not have enough bend. > >I found that my tool had the same problem. I >called Bob Avery and explained that it >appeared that the set was a degree or two >short to get around the rib flange. > >Bob said that he had specified 4 degrees +-1 >degree for the bend. He sent me a new tool >that was bent to 6 degrees and it worked >fine. It takes a little skill to hold that >long set steady but as the literatue states >it takes no skill to buck on the outside. > >Well it did take a little while to teach my >wife not to let the bar bounce like you do >when bucking to form a shop head. > >If anyone bought the set and it bends the >rivets towards the rib web I would talk to >Bob and he will fix it. Or if you have a >torch, Just heat it and wack it another 2 >degrees or so. > >Jim Schmidt >RV6 Skinning both wings > >Jim: Good idea, but I wonder if heating the set would soften the metal and allow the set to keep on bending? I helped a couple of friends with back riveting their top skins. We set one # 4 rivet at the top of the rear spar to the trailing web of the main ribs and clecoed the other three holes. Once riveting progressed towards the trailing edge, we pulled the clecos and was able to move the rib out of the way so we could get a straighter shot with the offset-set. I also rounded the corners of the set on a Scotch brite wheel and generally polished the end. This lessens marking of the underlying material in case the rivet set gets cocked off a little. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: csanchez(at)BayNetworks.com (Cheryl Sanchez)
Subject: How to remove prop extension?
This past weekend I removed the propeller from my prop extension. But the extension seemed to be "stuck" on the crankshaft. We didn't want to damage it so no attempt was made to force it off in any way. Does anyone know how to get it off? Thanks. Cheryl Sanchez csanchez(at)world.std.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: True Airspeed
>On 1/24/96 Bob Skinner wrote a reply on how to calculate the true calibrated >airspeed of your aircraft using the ground speed data off the GPS or Loran, >and flying three headings at 90 degree increments. The formula he gave did >not take into account the effects of density altitude and outside air >temperature. Does anyone know how to translate the results from this >formula,(true, calibrated airspeed at a given altitude, barometric pressure, >and tempurature), into a true, calibrated airspeed for STANDARD DAY >conditions? > >Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV >wstucklen(at)aol.com > Fred: I, too, wondered about this. I did log the outside temps and computed density altitude. Of course, each run does take DA and temp into account because that's the conditions that prevailed at the time. I don't know if converting everything to a standard day would reveal that much. I wonder if there would be more impact on the data caused by accurate leaning was performed, turbulence, load conditions and pilot technique? From the data that I have, the only effect density altitude has on the figures is that the airspeed error is greater at high DA conditions. By the way, I have a spreadsheet with 30 speed runs on it. I'm sure there is a way to import this spreadsheet data into Eudora and distribute it to the RV-list. I just don't know how to do it. If anyone has an interest in the data and can tell me how to import/send it, I'd be happy to post it. (You might want to contact me off-list at : BSkinner(at)ltec.net) I'd like to get comments from fellow listers on these figures. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
> However, I started using >a technique I think was mentioned by Don Wentz (??) that essentilally >obviates the need to back rivet; rivet the normal way and then use a >piece of wood ( I used a 3/4"x 3/4" x 12" piece of oak) and lightly tap the >rivets from the shop head side with a hammer. The indentations that >normally occur from front riveting disappear and you get a nice smooth >surface, and it only takes a couple minutes. I've done my whole fuselage >this way and all the skins are just as smooth as my back riveted wing >skins. Could you explain this in a bit more detail, I am interested in trying this, I'm just about ready to do the main skins on the left wing. Are you saying you place the piece of wood against the outside of the skin and just tap it to remove any indentation? -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: sburch(at)Infi.Net (stan burchett)
Subject: RV builder-partner(s) WANTED in Virginia
In Hampton Roads..to share tools, expertise, costs, etc. building personal and resale models. Contact email or 804-867-7244 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Garbage
>On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 aol.com!DerFlieger(at)matronics.com wrote: > >[...] > >> I don't have a spiffy online service for my email. I have no capability to >> do multiple deletes. Plus, I must do 2 mouse operations for each delete. I >> guess I spent more than a half hour this weekend deleting one by one these >> majordomo things and now the message not deliverable stuff. Shouldn't these >> messages be routed to you instead of the net? Or back to the sender? Who >> else gives a damn? > >Not attempting to overstep Matt, but the short answers are yes, no, and >probably quite a few of us. > >Let me explain, if I may. I also have Majordomo running on my machine >for another mailing list. Matt had already explained that someone had >tried to subscribe "rv-list-request" to the majordomo list server. This >action created a mail loop in the system. The server was mailing >stuff out to the list. Since rv-liat-request was also on the list, it >mailed a coy of an item back to itself and then reprocessed it to mail it >out again. Any other stuff that we sent in also got inserted into the loop. >Since majordomo saw each outgoing message as input immediately after a >send, I would suspect that his system was going nuts processing all this >stuff! He had previously stated that he had trouble logging in to stop the >loop. > >If you examine the header in a message from the rv-list, you will see >that he has an Errors-To: line in the header which should catch any >errors in mailing, such as bounces due to full mailboxes or unknown >users, back to another address. Unfortunately, this loop, as far as >majordomo was concerned, was not an error. It was doing exactly as it >was told. (1) It mailed out a message. (2) It mailed one copy of the >message to it's own address. (3) The message showed up as input to >majordomo. (4) It processed the message. (5) It mailed out the message... > >See where I'm going? > >Now then, yes, today we are seeing two more items come back, one that >says that a mailbox was full, the other is some uuencoded letter that >comes from a bounce. Why isn't this going to Matt's Errors-To: address? >Because the recipients' mail servers don't process the >Errors-To: line in the header properly - a configuration problem on the >recipients' end that Matt has no control over. > >- Alan Reichert >Wannabe RV-6 builder and fellow majordomo administrator. > Alan: Is it proper, allowable, etc. for a RV-lister to un-subscribe the person who has a full mail box or other problem that is corrupting the list or is this something that only the administrator of a list is allowed to do? I assume that Matt is very busy with his business and does not have time to be constantly monitoring the list to see if anything is wrong. Matt: if you're reading this, are there some instructions that you could give us "listers" so if the problem occurs in the future, we could put a stop to it? Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Carb/Cabin Heat
*** Fred's good stuff cut *** >exhaust pipe heat muffs, try limitig the air leaks in the cabin first. In the >RV-6 there is considerable air leak potential from both the flap extension >mechanism and the aileron control push rod exit points. > Those of you that are still working on your wings and/or fuselage, should >consider a method to eliminate the outside air from getting into the cabin >floor area. For the aileron push-pull tubes, try constructing a flexible, >conical boot that mounts to the outside of the fuselage in the wing root >area. Ths could be constructed from a piece of leather or nogahyde (sp) The sailplane guys have been doing this for years for performance reasons. I have use chamois leather in my Mini-Numbus for better flexibility, and others use sailcloth for the same reasons. Both can be glued into a conical shape with good contact cement. You want this cone to not introduce any "drag" on the controls. I think either of these materials would be a little better performance and easier to fabricate. >material. Attach to the fuselage with a metal compression ring and >screws/nutplates, and to the push-pull tube with a hose clamp. The length of >the conical material should be long enough to stretch out for the maximum >aileron control movement. *** snip *** > The single heat muff (from Van's option catalog) with the door spring >adder, supplies enough hot air to warm the cabin area sufficently in the New >England area IF the air leaks can be eliminated. > Hope these suggestions help anybody planning on flying in the cold >latitudes....... > >Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV >wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: EAA Technical Advisors
I'm ready (finally) to close my Horizontal Stabilizer. I want to have an "official" EAA Technical Advisor take a look at my work. While my EAA chapter (52) has a number of people with whom I feel confident, none of them are registered as Technical Advisors. So... 1. Does anyone know of a Technical Advisor in the Sacramento, CA area? 2. Does anyone know the requirements for becoming an Advisor? I am interested in becoming an Advisor, but all of my experience to date is still on my jig. I'm probably just a little green... :^) thanks, Russ Nichols russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Re: Heat-Carb muff efficiency
SNIP... I didn't even wear a jacket. I have a 2 tube stock >>muff on a vetterman 4 pipe system and I was warm. I'm surprise you have had >>all of the problems getting heat in your 6. (must be something about those >>wide body RV's :-) )I've flown at 11 degrees f (with jacket, no gloves) and >>was warm enough to have fun. >> >>Regards: >>Rusty Gossard >>N47RG RV-4 Flying >> >>Rusty: Combination of wide body, low metabolism, I guess:) Vetterman >doesn't have a dual muff for the 4-pipe on the 6. One thing that really >helps on the 6 (in the winter) is having sun come through the canopy. Makes >things a lot more comfortable. When the sun goes down or behand a cloud, >the temps drop big time. I'd sure like to test the dual muffs on the >cross-over but it's -8 degrees and the winds blowing 11 kts. Yikes! >Guess I'll work on the 6-A. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 Bob; Now I get the picture...didn't know you couldn't use a 2 tube. Thats another good reason I could have used on my wife when I "convinced" her a 4 was the way to go. Let us know how the 4 tube vs. the crossover is in performance. I've always thought a crossover would out perform a straight pipe but Larry said it wasn't so when I bought mine in 1993. Has he changed his thinking? I know one thing... I haven't had one problem with his pipes. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Dave Mumert <dmumert(at)softnc1.softnc.com>
Subject: Change of address
My e-mail address has changed from mumertd(at)cadvision.com to dmumert(at)softnc.com. I am now using my employers Internet feed. The Calgary RAA now has it's own Web page. It is on Ken Beanlands Christavia page at http://www.dcs-systems.com/~ken/christavia.html Those in the Alberta area may want to monitor this page. Ken has a nice page for the Christavia planes. The white tube fuselage is his plane, or will one day be a plane. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: bataller(at)tif623.ed.ray.com (Gary Bataller)
Subject: Re: How to remove prop extension?
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Hello there Cheryl! Bolt the prop back on and then slowly (and softly) rock the prop at the root. I went through this many times taking it on and off. Gary Bataller Side note: I previously unsubscribed from this newgroup, but somehow a few days ago I got back on it (with the ton of garbage messages). > > This past weekend I removed the propeller from my prop > extension. But the extension seemed to be "stuck" on the crankshaft. > We didn't want to damage it so no attempt was made to force it off > in any way. Does anyone know how to get it off? Thanks. > > Cheryl Sanchez > csanchez(at)world.std.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: How to remove prop extension? (fwd)
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Simply tap with a rubber mallet. Another method would be to use a block of wood (2x4) against it and then hit the 2x4 with a hammer. It should not take too much to get it off as the bushings should just be a snug fit. I assume you took the 6 bolts out that bolt the extension to the crankshaft. Herman > From root Mon Jan 29 18:07:00 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 15:55:47 EST > From: BayNetworks.com!csanchez(at)matronics.com (Cheryl Sanchez) > Message-Id: <9601292055.AA19578(at)pobox.BayNetworks.com> > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: How to remove prop extension? > > This past weekend I removed the propeller from my prop > extension. But the extension seemed to be "stuck" on the crankshaft. > We didn't want to damage it so no attempt was made to force it off > in any way. Does anyone know how to get it off? Thanks. > > Cheryl Sanchez > csanchez(at)world.std.com > -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: pressure testing fuel tanks
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Do not use any compressed air to test the tanks. It is very easy to over pressure a fuel tank and buldge it out. This is due to the area of the tank times the pressure = a lot of force. Here is what I did and it worked OK. The plane is flying now and no leaks. I cut the end off of a baloon and slipped it over the inside of the fuel cap and then put the cap back on. This seals the cap. Could use a thin latex glove or whatever. I put a AN cap over either the vent or fuel outlet fitting to plug it. If you don't have the AN fitting to plug it with then maybe another piece of a baloon and safetywire wrap around the fitting. Get a good baloon and inflate it and have it ready. Then use you lungs to blow into the remaining open fitting to compress the air. Plug it with your finger then quickly slip the baloon over it the fitting. Wrap some .025 safety wire around the baloon to seal it to the fitting. Let it set a day or so at near constant temperature. There may be a little loss due to your hot breath cooling down some. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: How to remove prop extension?
> This past weekend I removed the propeller from my prop >extension. But the extension seemed to be "stuck" on the crankshaft. >We didn't want to damage it so no attempt was made to force it off >in any way. Does anyone know how to get it off? Thanks. > >Cheryl Sanchez >csanchez(at)world.std.com > Cheryl: You might try heating the aluminum extension with a heat gun. Don't think that a hair dryer would get hot enough. I'm refering to the kind of heat gun that is used to strip paint. One with a varible control would be nice. The extension should heat up readily and hopefully the crank flange will stay cool because of the large heat sink. Maybe a light tap with a wood mallet while someone else pulls on the extension. Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Scott Johnson <rvgasj(at)popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: RV6A is a pain to move without wings ... ?
I currently am working on the wings of my RV6A. However, I was looking ahead at the plans and realized that the main gear of an RV6A is mounted to the wing spar. This brings up a few questions: 1) If I go ahead and build a wood pseudo spar to attach the landing gear to when I am done fitting the gear legs to the real wing, at least I could roll the fuselage around in the workshop and install the engine and instruments, but ... with all that weight on the fuselage, how will I support it so I dont damage the fuselage skin when it comes time to pull the psuedo wood spar out and put the wing in ? 2) I am also planning on taking the wings off to bring the plane home over the next few winters to paint it and continue refining it in the workshop. If I built an RV6 it is my understanding that I could just pull the wings off and roll it right into a U-Haul van and bring it to my workshop. The RV6A would be a pain for the above mentioned reasons. 3) Since I have 1000 hours in tricycle gear (0 hours in a tailwheel), and I liked the looks of an RV6A better, I chose it. However, if I can't find an easy way to move it without the wings, I am going to strongly consider switching to an RV6. I would greatly appreciate any comments as I will be ordering the fuselage kit soon. PS. Is the RV6 really that easy to fly in cross winds ... I heard tail dragger pilots don't wonder if they will ever ground loop, but only when ... Thanks for your comments .... on the fence, Scott Johnson ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: "Dan and Myrna Toupal" <DMToupal(at)msn.com>
Subject: Majordomo...blah, blah, blah
Quit whining or you'll get the job . . . ---------- From: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com on behalf of aol.com!CAP10ZOOM(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 27, 1996 9:19 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Majordomo...blah, blah, blah Would somone please attend to the mailing list so that the 100 plus error messages that have been dumped into my mailbox the last day or so will be the last??? This is REALLY annoying. Everybody loves to get mail... but this is ridiculous. Jim Campbell ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: RV-List Proceedures...
>-------------- >> >>[...] >> >> >Alan: Is it proper, allowable, etc. for a RV-Lister to un-subscribe the >person who has a full mail box or other problem that is corrupting the List >or is this something that only the administrator of a List is allowed to do? >I assume that Matt is very busy with his business and does not have time to >be constantly monitoring the List to see if anything is wrong. Matt: if >you're reading this, are there some instructions that you could give us >"Listers" so if the problem occurs in the future, we could put a stop to it? >Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 > >-------------- Hello RV-ers, I've been out of town since early Saturday morning and this is my first chance to read any email - sorry for the delay. Normally, I try to keep a close eye on the List and its operation, checking things at least a couple of times a day - yes things go wrong that often. People are always sending bogus messages to the rv-List-request address that cause problems. The problem Friday morning was the worse I've ever seen and I appoligize to *everyone* for all the email that went out before I could get it stopped. The automated operation of the List is so straight forward it seems incredable that there would be so many problems, but that's the Internet for you... To answer Bob Skinner's question, "yes" anyone on the List can subscribe or unsubscribe anyone else from the List. Generally, I would prefer that people didn't just start unsubscribing people from the List when they 'think' something might be wrong. I try to keep a pretty close eye on the List operation to make sure that it runs smoothly, so generally that should be sufficiant. In anycase, to subscribe or unsubscribe someone from the List whether its yourself or someone else, the easyest way is to send a message "rv-list-request(at)matronics.com" and put the following in the body of the message: "subscribe username(at)machine.domain" -or- "unsubscribe username(at)machine.domain" *AND THAT'S IT*! Nothing else. If you have automatic signauture files, *TURN THEM OFF*. The messages are read by a machine, so don't put any friendly message text in it either. Remember, what you unsubscribe with must match *EXACTLY* what you subscribed with. For example, If I subscribed myself with: "subscribe dralle(at)roxy.matronics.com" then later tried to unsubscribe with: "unsubscribe dralle(at)matronics.com" *it wouldn't work* even though both might be valid email addresses. Anyway, I hope this message didn't sound too 'bitchy', I didn't really mean it to. Let's keep up those RV discussions!! Matt Dralle RV-List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: EAA Technical Advisors
> > > I'm ready (finally) to close my Horizontal Stabilizer. I want to have > an "official" EAA Technical Advisor take a look at my work. While my > EAA chapter (52) has a number of people with whom I feel confident, > none of them are registered as Technical Advisors. > > So... > > 1. Does anyone know of a Technical Advisor in the Sacramento, CA > area? > > 2. Does anyone know the requirements for becoming an Advisor? > > I am interested in becoming an Advisor, but all of my experience to > date is still on my jig. I'm probably just a little green... :^) > > thanks, > > Russ Nichols > russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov > Contact Ben Owen at the EAA National office. He'll be happy to tell you about the Tech Advisor program. If all you've done on aircraft so far is work on the HS Stab you're probably not _quite_ ready to assume the lofty duties and responsibilities of a Technical Advisor. But, keep up the faith, after you've finished the RV you'll be more than ready. I'd be happy to inspect your project but I am sure there are some TA closer to Sacramento. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 29, 1996
Subject: Re: list problem
On Mon. 29 Jan 1996 Alan Reichert wrote: >From: "A. Reichert" <clark.net!reichera(at)matronics.com> >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Re: Garbage > >On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 aol.com!DerFlieger(at)matronics.com wrote: > >(my comments about the Majordomo etc. situation ) Let me explain, if I may. I also have Majordomo running on my machine for another mailing list. Matt had already explained that someone had tried to subscribe "rv-list-request" to the majordomo list server. This action created a mail loop in the system. The server was mailing stuff out to the list. Since rv-liat-request was also on the list, it mailed a coy of an item back to itself and then reprocessed it to mail it out again. Any other stuff that we sent in also got inserted into the loop. Since majordomo saw each outgoing message as input immediately after a send, I would suspect that his system was going nuts processing all this stuff! He had previously stated that he had trouble logging in to stop the loop. If you examine the header in a message from the rv-list, you will see that he has an Errors-To: line in the header which should catch any errors in mailing, such as bounces due to full mailboxes or unknown users, back to another address. Unfortunately, this loop, as far as majordomo was concerned, was not an error. It was doing exactly as it was told. (1) It mailed out a message. (2) It mailed one copy of the message to it's own address. (3) The message showed up as input to majordomo. (4) It processed the message. (5) It mailed out the message... See where I'm going? Now then, yes, today we are seeing two more items come back, one that says that a mailbox was full, the other is some uuencoded letter that comes from a bounce. Why isn't this going to Matt's Errors-To: address? Because the recipients' mail servers don't process the recipients' end that Matt has no control over. - Alan Reichert Wannabe RV-6 builder and fellow majordomo administrator. >=====================================================& OK. Thanks for the enlightenment Alan. I know it must (is) that way. I apologize to you, Matt . I know its not your fault, and I really didn't mean to imply that it was. I know that some have multiple delete capability and that would make it better to deal with. I probably wouldn't even mind. Makes me wonder though. Can't some control systems techniques be used on Majordomo? Such as limiting the number of resends allowed in a given time. Or recognizing the same message passing through more than once or twice. Maybe use some artificial intelligence? No useful control system output is allowed to grow without bound when there is a perturbation on it's input. Can't the loop be closed with negative feedback? Thanks for your comments Deene. Jim Stugart DerFlieger(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: RV6A is a pain to move without wings ... ?
>I currently am working on the wings of my RV6A. However, I was looking ahead >at the plans and realized that the main gear of an RV6A is mounted to the >wing spar. This brings up a few questions: > >1) If I go ahead and build a wood pseudo spar to attach the landing gear to >when I am done fitting the gear legs to the real wing, at least I could roll >the fuselage around in the workshop and install the engine and instruments, >but ... > >with all that weight on the fuselage, how will I support it so I dont damage >the fuselage skin when it comes time to pull the psuedo wood spar out and >put the wing in ? > > >2) I am also planning on taking the wings off to bring the plane home over >the next few winters to paint it and continue refining it in the workshop. >If I built an RV6 it is my understanding that I could just pull the wings >off and roll it right into a U-Haul van and bring it to my workshop. The >RV6A would be a pain for the above mentioned reasons. > > >3) Since I have 1000 hours in tricycle gear (0 hours in a tailwheel), and I >liked the looks of an RV6A better, I chose it. However, if I can't find an >easy way to move it without the wings, I am going to strongly consider >switching to an RV6. I would greatly appreciate any comments as I will be >ordering the fuselage kit soon. > >PS. Is the RV6 really that easy to fly in cross winds ... I heard tail >dragger pilots don't wonder if they will ever ground loop, but only when ... > > >Thanks for your comments .... on the fence, Scott Johnson > Of course the RV-6 is easy to fly in cross winds. If fact, you won't be able to tell the difference between a -6 and a-6A no matter what the winds are. That is until you decide to land it. Then there is a _slight_ difference in the _landing charactoristics_. Actually, the minor difficulty you will have occasionally is more than offset by the points you'll gain by flying a taildragger. Only a macho chauvinist would even think of pointing out that _some_ TD pilots refer to the wheel on the front of a nose-dragger as the 'training wheel'; I certainly wouldn't condone that type of demeaning description. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: kightdm(at)harvey.carol.net (danny kight)
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
Rich, I am about to start my first wing, (RV-6) and am interested in back riveting the skins also. You say to .... > rivet the normal way and then use a >piece of wood ( I used a 3/4"x 3/4" x 12" piece of oak) and lightly tap the >rivets from the shop head side with a hammer. The indentations that >normally occur from front riveting disappear and you get a nice smooth >surface, and it only takes a couple minutes. ... What flush set are you using? I did my empennage with an Avery swivel flush set with the rubber cup. I am very impressed with the results... there are no indentions that I can see. Regards, Danny Kight kightdm(at)carol.net finishing up (ugh) fiberglass on empennage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Heat-Carb muff efficiency
A >Bob; >Now I get the picture...didn't know you couldn't use a 2 tube. Thats >another good reason I could have used on my wife when I "convinced" her a 4 >was the way to go. > >Let us know how the 4 tube vs. the crossover is in performance. I've always >thought a crossover would out perform a straight pipe but Larry said it >wasn't so when I bought mine in 1993. Has he changed his thinking? I know >one thing... >I haven't had one problem with his pipes. > >Regards: >Rusty Gossard >N47RG RV-4 Flying > >Rusty: Larry has not changed his thinking. I'll run a few tests (when the weather warms up) and let you know if there is any difference. Bob Skinner 2nd try, first message didn't go through? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 29, 1996
From: COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RVs and ice
In a message dated 1/29/96 you wrote: =Bruce: = The RV Series are not intended to be flown into icing conditions. PERIOD. = Are you located in Winstead CT? =Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklenol.com Hi Fred, Yes, I am in Winsted and am still plugging along on my RV-6. It was nice to see your name in some of the previous correspondence, considering the much appreciated help/advice/encouragement you have given me in the past. Although I do realize that the RVs are not intended to be flown in icing conditions, it seems that if you fly in IMC in the winter months, and you are as lucky :-) as I am, you may sometimes find yourself in icing conditions despite your best efforts to avoid it. I was just curious as to whether anyone else has had this kind of luck in an RV, and how it might compare to other GA aircraft in terms of accumulation rates, etc. BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too wide at the F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the rib is wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm missing something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a replacement .063 angle at the correct height? Happy building/flying, Bruce Stobbe (flying in imagination; building in reality) fuse skeleton (still) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: HVLP gun from Harbor Freight
Hi Folks, A few days ago Geo Orndorff mentioned that he used an HVLP gun from HF that cost $89 and got good results (talking about priming -- not sure about fininhing). Has anyone else used this gun and had good results with it? And is it the one for $89.99 called in my 'flyer' catalog, 'Industrial HVLP Spray Gun' mfg by Central Pneumatic with the name Professional under the mfg name? Would appreciate your feedback, since I will be priming wing parts soon and am very interested in reducing over-spray. Thanks. Bill Costello -- ___ _______________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \______________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6 for sale
For sale RV6 completed airframe for sale for more info call George & Becki Orndorff 301-293-1505 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6A is a pain to move without wings ... ?
>I currently am working on the wings of my RV6A. However, I was looking ahead >at the plans and realized that the main gear of an RV6A is mounted to the >wing spar. This brings up a few questions: > >1) If I go ahead and build a wood pseudo spar to attach the landing gear to >when I am done fitting the gear legs to the real wing, at least I could roll >the fuselage around in the workshop and install the engine and instruments, >but ... > >with all that weight on the fuselage, how will I support it so I dont damage >the fuselage skin when it comes time to pull the psuedo wood spar out and >put the wing in ? I built a cart, complete with large castering wheels, from the fuselage jig lumber. By positioning it in the center of the fuselage bottom, at the balance point, I was able to easily move the fuselage around when installing/removing the wings. The rest of the time I had the wood pseudo spar in place with the weight of the fuselage on the landing gear. Of coarse, hosting the fuselage up onto the cart was not an easy task, but there are several methods you could use. I just jacked it up by stacking a base of timbers under the front belly pan and around the rear wing attachment area, jacked it up and slipped under the cart. You could jack it up from the gear legs, or, with strapping around the balance points, use a fork truck to lift it. It really is easy once you think about it. >2) I am also planning on taking the wings off to bring the plane home over >the next few winters to paint it and continue refining it in the workshop. >If I built an RV6 it is my understanding that I could just pull the wings >off and roll it right into a U-Haul van and bring it to my workshop. The >RV6A would be a pain for the above mentioned reasons. Might be easyer to paint it with the wings on. There are some 75 bolts you must remove to get the wings off, some of which are close tolerance bolts. Don't think I would do what you plan. >3) Since I have 1000 hours in tricycle gear (0 hours in a tailwheel), and I >liked the looks of an RV6A better, I chose it. However, if I can't find an >easy way to move it without the wings, I am going to strongly consider >switching to an RV6. I would greatly appreciate any comments as I will be >ordering the fuselage kit soon. > >PS. Is the RV6 really that easy to fly in cross winds ... I heard tail >dragger pilots don't wonder if they will ever ground loop, but only when ... Still think I would stick to the -6A. I have over 1000 Hrs tailwheel time, and, for safety reasons, would stick to the trike. But that's a VERY subjective decision.... Hope that helps....... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: To JIM SCHMIDT -Reply
Sorry Herman stopped after I got the message from Matt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: RV6A is a pain to move without wings ... ?
Scott, The wood pseudo spar is a good idea, even if it is just to maintain the spacing so your wings will fit into the fuselage when the time comes. We faced our wood spar with a layer of metal to help prevent crushing. We finished all the engine, instruments, interior, etc with the wood spars in place and on the gear. When we took the plane to the airport, we jacked it up with a 6" x 6" support block covered with carpet under the 604 bulkhead (where the wing spar attaches). As for taking the wings off and bringing it home, you may want to reconsider after you have put the wings on. For both our planes, it was a two day process to put the wings on the first time. The 6A is slightly more time consuming due to the gear, but both planes have the same number of bolts in the spar. I imagine a finished plane would require more time for removal of control tubes, fairings, fuel lines, vent lines, electrical connections. You may want to consider doing your work at the airport. Besides, its cool to hang out at the airport and be an airport rat. My dog thinks its the greatest thing since dog biscuits! Becki Orndorff >I currently am working on the wings of my RV6A. However, I was looking ahead >at the plans and realized that the main gear of an RV6A is mounted to the >wing spar. This brings up a few questions: > >1) If I go ahead and build a wood pseudo spar to attach the landing gear to >when I am done fitting the gear legs to the real wing, at least I could roll >the fuselage around in the workshop and install the engine and instruments, >but ... > >with all that weight on the fuselage, how will I support it so I dont damage >the fuselage skin when it comes time to pull the psuedo wood spar out and >put the wing in ? > > >2) I am also planning on taking the wings off to bring the plane home over >the next few winters to paint it and continue refining it in the workshop. >If I built an RV6 it is my understanding that I could just pull the wings >off and roll it right into a U-Haul van and bring it to my workshop. The >RV6A would be a pain for the above mentioned reasons. > > >3) Since I have 1000 hours in tricycle gear (0 hours in a tailwheel), and I >liked the looks of an RV6A better, I chose it. However, if I can't find an >easy way to move it without the wings, I am going to strongly consider >switching to an RV6. I would greatly appreciate any comments as I will be >ordering the fuselage kit soon. > >PS. Is the RV6 really that easy to fly in cross winds ... I heard tail >dragger pilots don't wonder if they will ever ground loop, but only when ... > > >Thanks for your comments .... on the fence, Scott Johnson > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin -Reply
>>> Rich Ward 01/29/96 11:49am >>> I found the Avery back riveting set a potentially wicked tool and it took a lot of concentration and skill to make it work well. For this reason I now favor the simpler "wood" approach. I know what you mean, Now looking at the right wing I will have to either hold the gun in my wrong hand or loop my other arm around to steady the tool. I will try the method you describe. I happen to have some 3/4 in oak around. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin -Reply
>>> Bob Skinner 01/29/96 02:16pm >>> >Jim: Good idea, but I wonder if heating the set would soften the metal and allow the set to keep on bending? I helped a couple of friends with back riveting their top skins. We set one # 4 rivet at the top of the rear spar to the trailing web of the main ribs and clecoed the other three holes. Once riveting progressed towards the trailing edge, we pulled the clecos and was able to move the rib out of the way so we could get a straighter shot with the offset-set. I also rounded the corners of the set on a Scotch brite wheel and generally polished the end. This lessens marking of the underlying material in case the rivet set gets cocked off a little. Bob Skinner RV-6 I asked Bob and he said that the end whas heat treated but he would douse it in water or oil and that would harden it again. Mine was so far off I couln't even rivet the ones at the full depth of the rib where it is 8 inches thick. Yes I also saw that sharp edge and buffed it off with the scotch brite wheel. Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
Bob, With the concept that each person could control the temperature on their side of the plane, we put a muff on each side of the engine and each side of the plane has a control box and cable to control the heat. For installation, (and we didn't intend to remove the muffs, so didn't provide for that), starting at the engine baffle, only cut a 1" hole as the entrance to the scat tube that goes to the muff, one per muff. We cut our holes low on the engine baffle to get air that has passed through the cylinder fins. We assembled the muff with the screws in the end plates. Attached the flanges. Drilled 6 1/4" holes into the muff for the air inlet and 5 1/4" holes for the hot air outlet. We used pop rivets to attach the ends to the muff. This could be done with sheet metal screws for easier removal. Then use hose clamps to hold the muff in place. As for putting anything inside the muff, (and I don't want to restart this conversation about wrapping pipes), we haven't. I wonder if something inside the muff might cause a hot spot and damage the pipes. I also agree with Fred (I think it was Fred) that interior finishing helps control temperature. We didn't try to block the air coming into the fuselage from the wing, but our seat cushions surround the stick hole and the stick boot is fairly tight to seal that air access. We build foam panels, covered with fabric for the sidewalls beside in the section where the arm rest is, and insulate the floor with sleeping bag pads under the carpet. I'm sure the combination of all these things helps keep the plane warm. Becki Orndorff >Becki: Thanks for the reply. Do you have the dual muffs hooked together in >series or does each one go to a cabin outlet. When you pop riveted the ends >on, I assume you don't fasten the two halves with the screws. Would >grinding off the flanges for the screws make installation and removal a >little easier? Did you use anything wrapped around your pipes under the >muffs to increase surface area. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Re: RVs and ice
>Hi Fred, > >Yes, I am in Winsted and am still plugging along on my RV-6. It was nice to see >your name in some of the previous correspondence, considering the much >appreciated help/advice/encouragement you have given me in the past. Hey, when you want to go for another ride? >Although I do realize that the RVs are not intended to be flown in icing >conditions, it seems that if you fly in IMC in the winter months, and you are as >lucky :-) as I am, you may sometimes find yourself in icing conditions >despite your best efforts to avoid it. I was just curious as to whether anyone else >has had this kind of luck in an RV, and how it might compare to other GA aircraft >in terms of accumulation rates, etc. The one time I've been in ICE was some what uneventfull. The ice accumilated on the windshield, and up the leading edge of the wings to about the spar. There didn't seem to be any abnormal flying characteristics, but then I wasn't in it long enough to get severe accumilation or to test fly the aircraft. I would like to believe that it would handle much like a Cherokee, or any other thick cord wing design. >BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too wide at >the F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when >properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they >advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the rib >is wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the >same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm >missing something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a >replacement .063 angle at the correct height? > >Happy building/flying, >Bruce Stobbe >(flying in imagination; building in reality) >fuse skeleton (still) Bruce, sounds like you may have the wrong rib at that location. Check all the dimensions for the other ribs. Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin -Reply
>>> Chris Ruble 01/29/96 02:21pm >>> What type of bar did you use for bucking? Shape/Lbs? I've sold my soul to Avery. He sells one just for the purpose. It is a turned cylindrical piece about 1.5 inches in diameter about 8 inches long with a round flat face with the edges nicley radiused. I'd guess about 3 lbs. Interestingly enough BoB Avery told me he gave up on his project use of the backrivet tool. he could not use it. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: RV Archive Search Engine
I've put a Windows program on an FTP server which searches the archive files. You can download it from: FTP.INTELLINET.COM the directory is pub/users/bfgibbons There is a subdirectory there called RVSEARCH. This directory contains a zipped file with the EXE and a Word 7.0 document with instructions. Download in binary format. Put the rvsearch.exe in a subdirectory (I put it in c:\rvsearch) and put the archive file in the same subdirectory. The archive must be in the same subdirectory or the program will not run. The archive file must be the RV-Archive.digest.complete (or complete.zip) file. This file (either zipped or not) contain page breaks and have e-mail header information removed. If you use another archive file the program will not run. Matt is working on getting the new FTP site on-line so if you don't have this file already you'll have to wait until the FTP site is available. The Word document has fairly good instructions on how to use the program. If you need help, please e-mail me directly at bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: av8r(at)hic.net
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-List - Thanks Matt
>Anyway, I hope this message didn't sound too 'bitchy', I didn't really mean it >to. Let's keep up those RV discussions!! >Matt Dralle >RV-List Admin. Hey Matt! Don't apologize too much, it's you that has been getting the bitchy mail as far as I have seen recently...sure the list "glitched" but.... the last time I checked, I wasn't sending you any subscription. As far as I am concerned, the list is excellent, THE "A # 1" way for me to get info and contacts regarding my hobby/passion/fixation - RV's. Sometimes it is all too easy to criticize, and we all do from time to time! - What we don't do very often is to take enough time to recognize someone for a job well done. Well here goes..... Matt - thanks for running the list and for providing the software and hardware to make it happen. Its a joy every time I log in. Keep up the good work!!! Rob Lee - RV6A - Painting now imminent ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Re: How to remove prop extension?
You might try soaking it with a penatrating oil for a few hours. Than put a piece of wood on the extention and tap the wood with your favorite hammer. Work your way around and it should "pop" off. If that doesn't work...get a BIGGER hammer :) Gary ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PFPA(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: RV photo wanted
H E L P ! I need a cover photo for the upcoming 16 Year's of the RV-Ator Book! ! ! ! ! ! In Flight Close-up ??? Formation ??? Construction photo ??? That RV grin ??? Something that shows what RVing is all about. Heck, I'll even pay you for it! Andy Gold Easy Publishing 328 Luscombe Dr Los Lunas, NM 87031 (505) 865-3466 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: dls27(at)psu.edu
Subject: Certification procedure
Can someone please direct me to a good source of information for certifying a experimental aircraft? I have read a few books and talked to a few people but there seems to be alot of gray area about the "absoulutly have to's" and "should do's" concerning documentation while building. I would like to have all the ducks in a nice neat row for that final inspection. Dan Shades RV-4 Waiting on wing kit dls27(at)psu.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
Danny: You wrote: > What flush set are you using? I did my empennage with an Avery swivel flush > set with the rubber cup. I am very impressed with the results... there are > no indentions that I can see. I highly recommend the Avery swivel flush set that you already have. Just this past wekend, I enlisted my father-in-law (who had never handled a rivet gun in his life) to help me rivet my top wing skins. He did a beautiful job. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Tailwheels are easy
With all this talk about tailgraggers vs nose draggers, I thought I would chime in here. I am in the middle of getting a tailwheel checkout. I've had about 2.5 hours in a Champ, and I figure it will take another couple of hours before my landings are consistently greasers. Pssst! This taildragger stuff is easy! A heck of a lot easier than shooting a partial-panel NDB approach in moderate turbulence. Don't let the 'tail draggers are hard to fly' myth stop anyone from building a -6. Best regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
> rivet the normal way and then use a > piece of wood ( I used a 3/4"x 3/4" x 12" piece of oak) and lightly tap the > rivets from the shop head side with a hammer. The indentations that > normally occur from front riveting disappear and you get a nice smooth > surface, and it only takes a couple minutes. ... > This has got to be the best RV builders "trick" yet. I went home last night and tried this on my .025 LE skins, WOW! they look great. Thanks for re-posting this info. Chris ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Meet RV'ers?
I have a couple of trips planned, and I'd like to meet some other RVer's if possible. I'll be in Portland on Jan 31 (short notice, huh?) and plan on going to the Van's factory in the A.M. I then have to drive over to Eagle Creek on some business. I'll only be there for the day, but maybe we can have lunch, or if you're close by I can drop by and see your project. I'll also be in Phoenix on April 4th, and in Eloy the 5th-7th for a skydiving meet. If there's anyone in the area, I'd love to say Hi! Also........ there is an airport in Eloy, if anyone just HAPPENS to fly in there, I'd give up a first born child (if I had one, but I'll certainly spring for lunch) for a ride. Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
>Could you explain this in a bit more detail, I am interested in trying this, >I'm just about ready to do the main skins on the left wing. Are you saying >you place the piece of wood against the outside of the skin and just tap it >to remove any indentation? No, you do not put anything on the flat head side of the rivet. After you are finshed riveting the normal way with a flat set and bucking bar, you simply take a piece of wood and place it on the driven side (shop head) of the rivet and tap the wood lightly a couple times with a hammer. The cupping or indentation created by the flat set will get bent back out and the surface will then be flat. Couple hints: 1. Slightly round or bevel the end of the piece of wood so you can approach the rivet from a slight angle if required 2. Only do it on rivets. If you do it on the flanges between rivets you will get dents in the skin the shape of your wood. This works so well, one tends to get carried away and wants to use it in other places. Trust me don't, I learned from experience. 3. Harder wood seems to work better than the softer ones; you don't get little cups in the wood the shape of the shop heads. If you don't have any hard wood go ahead and use a softer one - just refinsh the end once in a while. 4. 3/4" x 3/4" by 6 to 12 inches work fine. A piece of dow would work well too. 5. If you already have a back riveting set, try both approaches and judge for yourself. -- Rich ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
>What flush set are you using? I did my empennage with an Avery swivel flush >set with the rubber cup. I am very impressed with the results... there are >no indentions that I can see. I use the same rivet set. When I rivet the thinner skins, I tend to get very slight indentations the shape of the rivet set. I use the wood to knock these out. Maybe it is my riveting technique or maybe I use too much pressure (40-45 psi) ?? In any case, if you get them you can use the wood to knock them out or you can back rivet to avoid them. -- Rich ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rwoodard(at)lawyernet.com
Subject: Thanks to Jeff Hall
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Hello all-- I wanted to extend my thanks to Jeff Hall for showing myself and a friend around his shop last night. Jeff's RV-4 is coming along nicely and his workmanship is very fine IMHO. Seeing a project underway where the workshop is very organized and the builder's attitude is positive is a great motivator to those of us about to take the plunge. The first ride gave me the permanent RV-grin, but seeing a project underway really makes me want to start building. I'd encourage all rv-listers to show off their project-in-progress... it's a great motivator! Also... I'm the one who initiated the "nose or tail" thread about a week ago. Thanks to all who responded. I've decided to go for the -8. I called Van's on 1/25/96. Sounds like the tail kits might be ready to go by the end of April, beginning of May! Rod Woodard Loveland, Colorado RWoodard(at)lawyernet.com P.S. TO JEFF HALL: I've misplaced your e-mail address. Could you please send it to me. Thanks... Rod ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: "Richard E Steffens" <resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin -Reply
I back-riveted the top skins on both my wings using the Avery rivet set. Worked great. I had no dings. Had to keep the mind and eye on handling the gun and develop a good rhythm with the helper. Took a little over two hours to rivet the top skins on the second wing. I'll be ready to rivet the fuse skins soon and plan to back-rivet where I can. It would help to have a bit more bend in the rivet set. Dick Steffens RV-6 North Carolina resteffe(at)dpcmail.dukepower.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: RVs and ice
*** snip *** >BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too wide at the >F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when >properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they >advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the rib is Vans Hotline - Short memories and lack of logging builder's comments!! I still have an outstanding bet with Frank Justice (a pint of premium brew) that Vans hotline does not log buiders problems in any consistent manner (after my tip-up canopy/electric flap design error -- "you are the third one this week") -- see the RV-list archives. Did you talk to Ken "hit it with a bigger hammer" Scott, or Tom "just make it fit" Green? .... :^) Every local builder has had this problem on kits that date back over 2 years and as recent as 6 months old. One side is worse than the other. The standard fix that Vans hotline recommends (funny they haven't heard of it before, but they have a standard fix) is to move the baggage floor ribs inwards until they fit. For one side this fix is either impossible, or needs an excessive movement. Locally, most builders have been doing what you say below, removing the flange, and riveting another flange in it's place. This replacement flange can just be bent from some scrap 0.025 stock - no need to use 0.063. Also, when you line up the bottom skin side flange of the baggage ribs at the baggage bulkhead end, remember to allow for the 0.025 skin thickness of the aft skins that will be "under" the baggage area skins at the overlap. >wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the You are right, the parts don't meet the prints. Since all of the flanges on these parts are straight lines, I suspect that they have been bent in a brake, and not over hard tooling. My parts were shiny Alclad, not dull like the parts that have been heat treated after forming. >same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm >missing It is happening to lots of others. >something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a >replacement .063 angle at the correct height? > >Happy building/flying, >Bruce Stobbe >(flying in imagination; building in reality) >fuse skeleton (still) ...... wishing Van would actually log builders problems for correlation and analysis. The two local builders at this stage are finding _exactly_ the same dimensional errors I found 15 months ago. ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: pressure testing fuel tanks
> > Do not use any compressed air to test the tanks. > It is very easy to over pressure a fuel tank and buldge it out. > This is due to the area of the tank times the pressure = a lot of force. > It's really not a big deal if you're careful. I used a fitting that another builder had made that has a bicycle valve tapped into it and screws into the quick-drain port. I put a balloon on the fuel pickup port. I turned my regulator down to just a few lbs and stuck it on the bicycle valve. It's easy to just give a quick "squirt" of air with one of these valves to make sure it isn't going in too fast, but I found that I had to turn it up a bit or it would take too long (a minute or more) just to blow up the balloon. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: looking for a friend
I'm looking for an old friend, Lee Taylor. He's a CFI, works for the railroad I believe and has moved to Colorado in the last couple of years. If anyone can get me help on where to look I'd appreciate it. If you happen to know him please give him my name a number. TIA He use to live near Sacramento, CA. (me too) Dan Boudro 2913 Rhode Island NE Albuquerque, NM 87110-3705 home (505) 275-3179 office (505) 889-7241 fax (505) 889-7430 dboudro(at)nmia.com RV-4 N9167Z ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Lewis <lewisjw(at)hqsocom.af.mil>
From: lewisjw
Subject: Hazards of Fire Extinguishers & A/C Engines Subject: Hazards of dry powder fire extinguishers Can anyone direct me to information on the hazards of using dry powder B/C and A/B/C fire extinguishers around a/c engines? Thanks. Please reply to lewisjw(at)hqsocom.af.mil ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List - Thanks Matt
>>Anyway, I hope this message didn't sound too 'bitchy', I didn't really mean it >>to. Let's keep up those RV discussions!! > >>Matt Dralle >>RV-List Admin. > >Hey Matt! > >Don't apologize too much, it's you that has been getting the bitchy mail as far >as I have seen recently...sure the list "glitched" but.... > >the last time I checked, I wasn't sending you any subscription. As far as I am >concerned, the list is excellent, THE "A # 1" way for me to get info and >contacts regarding my hobby/passion/fixation - RV's. > >Sometimes it is all too easy to criticize, and we all do from time to time! - >What we don't do very often is to take enough time to recognize someone for a >job well done. Well here goes..... Matt - thanks for running the list and for >providing the software and hardware to make it happen. Its a joy every time I >log in. Keep up the good work!!! > >Rob Lee - RV6A - Painting now imminent > *** DITTO *** Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Exhaust system
A As for putting anything inside the muff, (and I don't want to restart >this conversation about wrapping pipes), we haven't. I wonder if something >inside the muff might cause a hot spot and damage the pipes. > Becki Orndorff Becki: Thank you for your very detailed replay. Yes, let's not get the pipe wrapping thing going again. I started with screen door springs wrapped under the muff, then switched to an expanded steel put on in layers. I had 200 hrs on the mild steel Vetterman system which I had painted with VHT paint. The paint was rubbed off in a few places but did not really feel that it looked like any damage was being done to the pipe, but it's something that should be inspected if you are going to do it. I don't think I have room to hang anything more on the firewall or instrument panel, so I think I'll try hooking two muffs up in series. Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: RV-List - Thanks Matt
Well said Rob! I couldn't have said it better myself. YAY MATT! Randall Henderson RV-6 > > Hey Matt! > > Don't apologize too much, it's you that has been getting the bitchy mail as far > as I have seen recently...sure the list "glitched" but.... > > the last time I checked, I wasn't sending you any subscription. As far as I am > concerned, the list is excellent, THE "A # 1" way for me to get info and > contacts regarding my hobby/passion/fixation - RV's. > > Sometimes it is all too easy to criticize, and we all do from time to time! - > What we don't do very often is to take enough time to recognize someone for a > job well done. Well here goes..... Matt - thanks for running the list and for > providing the software and hardware to make it happen. Its a joy every time I > log in. Keep up the good work!!! > > Rob Lee - RV6A - Painting now imminent > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Cruise performance data
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 15:18:47 -0600 >X-Sender: bs65802(at)mail.ltec.net >To: BSkinner(at)ltec.net >From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net> >Subject: Cruise performance data > >Here is the cruise performance data that I've collected to date: > > Den % lean Ind True Cal >Temp Alt Alt RPM MP Pwr to: A.S. Airspeed Notes >53 4500 5200 1900 NA NA NA 82 81 >55 4500 5200 2270 21.3 62% peak 152 151.6 >55 4500 5200 2434 25 78 peak 165 164.6 >56 4500 5200 2614 25.5 88 100r 177 181.1 F.T. >56 4500 5200 2614 25.5 88 100r 178 179.5 F.T. > >51 5500 6250 2350 21.3 65 peak 155 159.6 1 pas>1/2 fuel >51 5500 6250 2450 24.3 78 peak 165 167.5 1 pas>1/2 fuel >86 5500 8000 2465 23.8 75 b.p. 159 167.1 1 p/FF/*2nd prop >52 5500 6250 2600 24.8 85 b.p. 175 178.6 F.T.>1/2 fuel >86 5500 8000 2620 24.8 85 b.p. 172 180 F.T.*2nd prop > >46 6500 7100 2350 21 65 peak 154 158.9 >77 6500 9000 2440 22.3 72 peak 154 166.7 *2nd prop/1 hr FB >47 6500 7100 2465 23.5 75 peak 160 167.7 >59 6500 8000 2560 23.8 78 b.p. 168 177.5 F.T. >77 6500 9000 2580 23.8 82 b.p. 165 179.1 F.T.*2nd/1hr FB >47 6500 7100 2580 23.8 82 b.p. 171 176.8 F.T. >47 6500 7100 2600 23.8 82 b.p. 173 178.1 F.T. >90 6500 10000 2630 23.5 82 b.p. 162 175.5 F.T.*2nd/1hr FB > >40 7500 8000 2350 22.3 68 peak 150 157.1 FF/1 210# pas >40 7500 8000 2450 22.5 72 peak 157 164.1 FF/1 210# pas >86 7500 11000 2470 22.0 72 peak 153 166.7 *2nd /1 hr FB >36 7500 7500 2500 23.0 75 b.p. 163 170.8 F.T./ full fuel >40 7500 8000 2520 22.8 75 100r 162 170.8 F.T./FF/210#pas >43 7500 8000 2600 22.8 78 100r 174 177.6 F.T./ > 1/2 fuel >86 7500 11000 2600 22.5 78 100r 160 177 F.T./*2nd/40min FB >55 7500 8500 2720 22.3 78 b.p. 160 170.8 F.T./1/2 fuel-Fel > >36 8500 9000 2370 21.5 65 peak 148 156.6 1/2 fuel/210# pas >36 8500 9000 2460 21.8 68 peak 154 166.4 1/2 fuel/210# pas >40 8500 9200 2500 20.0 65 b.p. 147 157 Felix prop >36 8500 9000 2505 21.8 72 100r 160 168.9 F.T.-1/2F.-210#pas >NA 8500 NA 2542 21.5 72 b.p. 155 NA F.T. cruise >40 8500 9200 2712 22 78 b.p. 160 170.1 F.T.-Fel Prp-1/2fuel > >70 9500 12000 2500 21 68 b.p. 155 NA F.T. cruise >NA 10500 NA 2502 20.3 65 b.p. 150 NA F.T. cruise > >This is for my 150 hp, RV-6. Empty weight: 1080 Pilot wt. 210# >*2nd= after the prop was re-pitched the 2nd time >F.T.= Full throttle operation >FB= fuel burn FF= full fuel pas=pasenger Fel=Felix prop > >The only effect I found that density altitude seem to have was on the >difference between indicated and true, calibrated airspeed. Airspeed error >was greater for higher density altitude (thinner air?) > >I should be getting my prop back any day now from the 3rd re-pitching. >Hopefully, will get some improvement. I'd be interested in my fellow RVer's >comments about the above. (Anything to keep converstaion going on the >RV-list, right?) > >I envy all of you who get the right prop the first time. The more of this I >go through, the more thought I give to putting a constant speed on the 6-A >I'm building now. I might even put one on this 6. When the weather gets >warmer, I might even try to find an old governor and wee if it fits the >recess I made in the firewall. The only other problem I have with a >constant speed is that I would have to go to the Hartzell with the 3.8 G >restriction extension. This would probably hurt the resale value, right? I >wouldn't face as much of a weight penalty as one would think. I have the >Landoll harmonic dampner on and I made a 1/4" extension plate for my front >spinner bulkhead out of steel to help with the aft CG problem. > >Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 > >Boy, I wish I could figure out how to format this thing in Eudora. I've been sending a copy to myself and it looks good going out and comes in goofed up. I'm so frustrated, I think I'll go work on my airplane. Bob Skinner > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: RV Archive Search Engine -Reply
That FTP site won't let me access it. I am trying to use anoymous login. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
Dave Barnhart said: > Pssst! This taildragger stuff is easy! A heck of a lot easier than > shooting a partial-panel NDB approach in moderate turbulence. Don't let > the 'tail draggers are hard to fly' myth stop anyone from building a -6. SHHHHH! Dammit, you want EVERYONE to know???? There goes my "taildragger pilot mystique!" ;-) Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com>
Subject: Thanks to Matt
I am a newcomer to the list, but I would like to thank Matt and echo Rob Lee's resent message. Although I wondered at all the garbage coming in, I appreciate all those that volunteer to provide the service and learned a lot puzzling over the cause and seeing the resoloution. I already feel I know some of you after reading teh mail for just a few days. Hope this is the place to introduce myself by providing a profile and list my interests/concerns with my RV6 project. Profile: Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, H 519.746.9882 B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com I have taken over an RV6 project; wings and tailfeathers were done. I am starting fuselage, firewall complete; just aquired a jig. Plan on a sliding canopy and an IO-320 160, CS. I have done some metalwork and riveting, but I already feel the lack of experience in not having built the wings and tail. Also own a modified L2-M Taylorcraft which I have flown for 23 years and rebuilt 10 years ago. Immediate interest/concern: Smoking rivets at the base of firewall; Any ideas on beefing up structure of cabin floor or sidewall between firewall and spar, in addition to more rivets than the plan calls for? Loose rivets here seem likely due to the structure's inability to absorb the strain of rough field landing gear loads and/or heavy engine + prop. Is anyone considering thicker skins, 1/8 rather than 1/16 stiffners in floor, additional structure, etc? General interest: 1. A four-into-one exhaust system for increased power and noise reduction. Has anyone put one on a 6? 2. Front injector and inlet in lower front of canopy. 3. Quietness inside through sound attenuation materials. 4. Sealing the sliding canopy and any other drafts. 5. Seat material to provide both comfort and visibility over nose. 6. Any ideas on drag reduction, such as restricting cooling airflow with cowl vents in cruise, fairings at the wing junction, alternatives to springs and chain to tail wheel, any "lopresti" type improvements. 7. Availability of a simple angle-of-attack indicator, or a design for one. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Certification procedure
Text item: NOW IS THE TIME TO GET FRIENDLY WITH THE FAA INSPECTOR AND FIND OUT WHAT THEY REALLY WANT. I HAVE HEARD OF DIFFERING REQUIREMENTS DEPENDING ON THE INSPECTOR, AREA OF THE COUNTRY ETC. SINCE THE FEDS HAVE THE FINAL WORD THEY ARE THE BEST SOURCE AS TO WHAT THEY WILL REQUIRE. ANOTHER THING YOU CAN DO IS CONTACT AN RV COMPLETER IN YOUR AREA AND FIND OUT WHAT THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH. IT CAN BE VERY SUBJECTIVE ON THE PART OF THE INSPECTOR. Can someone please direct me to a good source of information for certifying a experimental aircraft? I have read a few books and talked to a few people but there seems to be alot of gray area about the "absoulutly have to's" and "should do's" concerning documentation while building. I would like to have all the ducks in a nice neat row for that final inspection. Dan Shades RV-4 Waiting on wing kit dls27(at)psu.edu Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: RV-List: Certification procedure From: psu.edu!dls27(at)matronics.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:30:46 -0500 tel.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA07984 for <Gary_Standley_at_hfccm4@ccm. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: justjas(at)applevalley.mn.frontiercomm.net
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: RE: Tailwheels are easy (most times)
IMHO tail draggers are great when the wind is calm or down the runway. With a cross wind it is another story. My experience is 70 recent hours in a Citabria, so this may not apply totally to an RV. My point is that tail draggers are FUN, but they are not nose wheelers and complacency should be avoided (as is the case in any flying activity) lest you become the next "ground looper." ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
I got my tailwheel signoff with only fours hours dual in Mike Seagers RV-6. At the time I had about 75 hours total time. I would not fly in a 25 kt crosswind, not sure you can taxi an RV-6 in that kind of wind. But for sport flying, an RV-6 is not that hard to land or takeoff. Backing my C-172 into a tight hanger is much more difficult. Bob Busick RV-6 On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, David A. Barnhart wrote: > With all this talk about tailgraggers vs nose draggers, I thought I would > chime in here. I am in the middle of getting a tailwheel checkout. I've > had about 2.5 hours in a Champ, and I figure it will take another couple > of hours before my landings are consistently greasers. > > Pssst! This taildragger stuff is easy! A heck of a lot easier than > shooting a partial-panel NDB approach in moderate turbulence. Don't let > the 'tail draggers are hard to fly' myth stop anyone from building a -6. > > Best regards, > Dave Barnhart > rv-6 sn 23744 > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: "Doug Miner" <dougm(at)qm.WV.TEK.COM>
Subject: Re: RV-List- RV photo wanted
Reply to: RE>RV-List: RV photo wanted give me your email address... I have just the shot for you... Doug dougm(at)pogo.wv.tek.com -------------------------------------- Date: 1/30/96 2:34 PM From: rv-list(at)matronics.COM H E L P ! I need a cover photo for the upcoming 16 Year's of the RV-Ator Book! ! ! ! ! ! In Flight Close-up ??? Formation ??? Construction photo ??? That RV grin ??? Something that shows what RVing is all about. Heck, I'll even pay you for it! Andy Gold Easy Publishing 328 Luscombe Dr Los Lunas, NM 87031 (505) 865-3466 ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ From: aol.com!PFPA(at)matronics.COM Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:08:54 -0500 Subject: RV-List: RV photo wanted ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Randall Henderson wrote: > SHHHHH! Dammit, you want EVERYONE to know???? There goes my "taildragger > pilot mystique!" (Chuckle) I'm drooling with anticipation of the day I can taxi up to a bunch of my nosedragger friends, cut the mixture while booting the left rudder to unlock the full-swivel tailwheel, coast to a top at the end of 90 degrees rotation, and slide the canopy back. Ah, yes! Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6AV8R(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-List - Thanks Matt
>Sometimes it is all too easy to criticize, and we all do from time to time! - >What we don't do very often is to take enough time to recognize someone for a >job well done. Well here goes..... Matt - thanks for running the list and for >providing the software and hardware to make it happen. Its a joy every time I >log in. Keep up the good work!!! > > Couldn't have said it better...thanks from me, too. Dana Breda N138DB ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks to Matt
A >Immediate interest/concern: Smoking rivets at the base of firewall; Any >ideas on beefing up structure of cabin floor or sidewall between firewall >and spar, in addition to more rivets than the plan calls for? Loose rivets >here seem likely due to the structure's inability to absorb the strain of >rough field landing gear loads and/or heavy engine + prop. Is anyone >considering thicker skins, 1/8 rather than 1/16 stiffners in floor, >additional structure, etc? > >General interest: >1. A four-into-one exhaust system for increased power and noise reduction. >Has anyone put one on a 6? >2. Front injector and inlet in lower front of canopy. >3. Quietness inside through sound attenuation materials. >4. Sealing the sliding canopy and any other drafts. >5. Seat material to provide both comfort and visibility over nose. >6. Any ideas on drag reduction, such as restricting cooling airflow with >cowl vents in cruise, fairings at the wing junction, alternatives to springs >and chain to tail wheel, any "lopresti" type improvements. >7. Availability of a simple angle-of-attack indicator, or a design for one. > >Peter: I have a few smoking rivets on the angle stiffners on the belly, none around the firewall. On the one I'm building now, I'll probably dimple instead of machine countersink, space the #3 rivets closer together or possibly use #4's. Exhaust-I'm pretty much a Larry Vetterman, High Country Exhaust fan. I figured that these airplanes take long enough to build with out me having to experiment with exhaust systems. Everyone I've talked to has high praise for Vetterman's system (stainless steel cross-over). I chose not to install any type of sound deadening material in the cockpit and instead bought a Telex 4000 ANR. Saves a little weight and I felt there was more bang for the buck (and a greater chance of saving what's left of my hearing) by buying a good headset. I used the 3-layer Temperfoam seat cushions and a sunmate 1" back cusion. I overlaid these with generic 2" med density foam. I flew the 40 hr test period with the Temperfoam stuck in a pillow case. I was disappointed with the comfort. I purchased this foam for safety reasons but also because people said it was confortable. Hence, the 2" additional layers-installed for comfort only. In the winter, Temperfoam is as hard as a concrete park bench. Takes awhile for your body heat to cause the foam to form. Bob Skinner RV-6 flying RV-6A building ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
> > >On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Randall Henderson wrote: > >> SHHHHH! Dammit, you want EVERYONE to know???? There goes my "taildragger >> pilot mystique!" > >(Chuckle) I'm drooling with anticipation of the day I can taxi up to a >bunch of my nosedragger friends, cut the mixture while booting the left >rudder to unlock the full-swivel tailwheel, coast to a top at the end of >90 degrees rotation, and slide the canopy back. > >Ah, yes! > >Best Regards, >Dave Barnhart >rv-6 sn 23744 The problem is, you can do some of those turns when you aren't trying to. Then you can slide the canopy back, hop out and go get a change of clothes. Come out to Nebraska (Motto: "Wyoming ain't got nothin on us") and we'll go flying in a 30 kt wind. (Note: Bring your own taildragger, you can't fly mine.) Heh heh heh. Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
> > >On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Randall Henderson wrote: > >> SHHHHH! Dammit, you want EVERYONE to know???? There goes my "taildragger >> pilot mystique!" > >(Chuckle) I'm drooling with anticipation of the day I can taxi up to a >bunch of my nosedragger friends, cut the mixture while booting the left >rudder to unlock the full-swivel tailwheel, coast to a top at the end of >90 degrees rotation, and slide the canopy back. > >Ah, yes! > >Best Regards, >Dave Barnhart >rv-6 sn 23744 > Yes!!! YES!!! That is the true feeling of mastering and flying a Taildragger. None of that 'let the plane land itself' Cessna hype; it takes a _real_ man (or woman) to land a Taildragger. People will fall to their knees in awe as you step down from your RV Taildragger. You won't be able to buy that $50.00 hamburger; the masses will be falling all over themselves as they compete for the honor of sitting at your table and treating you to whatever you want. Hamburgers------no, they'll be buying you steak -n- lobster as they bask in your shadow. Ah yes, the mystique of the 'Taildragger'; never let anyone attempt to discredit the skills and abilities needed to master the secrets of the dance of the two feet. Nose dragger pilots, and I use the term 'pilots' generously, will never appreciate what they have not experienced. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 30, 1996
From: bcon(at)ix.netcom.com (Robert M. Cornacchia )
Subject: Re: HVLP gun from Harbor Freight
You wrote: > >Hi Folks, > >A few days ago Geo Orndorff mentioned that he used an HVLP gun from HF >that cost $89 and got good results (talking about priming -- not sure >about fininhing). > >Has anyone else used this gun and had good results with it? And is it >the one for $89.99 called in my 'flyer' catalog, 'Industrial HVLP Spray >Gun' mfg by Central Pneumatic with the name Professional under the mfg >name? > >Would appreciate your feedback, since I will be priming wing parts soon >and am very interested in reducing over-spray. Thanks. > >Bill Costello >-- > > ___ _______________________ > \ \ _ _ / / > \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ > X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / > o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ > \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / > \______________________\ > > Bill Here's another question that could be answered locally if you would ask. I have had the fortune to see this gun work. The painter that comes in the shop to paint our Jetski's has one of these guns. It works great. The gun in Harbor Freight catalog is a central pheumatic and he uses it for finishing with good results. If you would like to talk to him let me know and I will get you his phone number. Bob Cornacchia ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
Date: Jan 30, 1996
Randall: Thanks for you comments on the engine/prop question. I'm leaning toward the fixed pitch prop initially, largely for cost but also for handling considerations (aeros). Is it realistic to think about starting with a fixed pitch prop and then perhaps switching to CS down the road, or would the change be horrendous? I guess the main concern I have about changing to a CS prop later are choosing the right engine initially; are there other big considerations I'm missing? Can anyone provide any information about the cost and effort of maintaining a CS prop relative to a fixed pitch prop? Tedd McHenry Edmonton, Canada tedd(at)idacom.hp.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Exhaust Wrap
Date: Jan 30, 1996
> I got a chance to see a beautiful setup of an IO-320 in a Lancair > this weekend. One of the things that caught my eye was that the > builder had wrapped all of the exhaust system, from the exhaust port > down the stack to the bottom of the cowl including the cabin heat > muff, with a heat wrap. He gave > two reasons: 1) the tightly cowled Lancair needs all the heat > protection it can get; and 2) maintaining the temperature of the > exhaust gas in the pipe helps with horsepower. He says this is > because exhaust gas slows as it cools, and that causes back pressure > at the cyl. He wants the exhaust gas to retain as much heat as > possible until it hits the air under the airplane. > > Makes sense to me, but so does the flat tax so what do I know? Any > of you engine types have comments? > > He says the wrap can be purchased from Spruce and he used it on his > race cars. I asked if he was worried about not catching any cracks in the > exhaust system because of the wrap. He's not but I think I would be. > This is very commong practive with race cars. I don't know what the power gain is, but few people in racing seem to question the validity of it. However, I have heard that it does accelerate the rotting out of your exhaust system a lot, because of the much higher temps the steel is exposed to. I wouldn't use it on an airplane for that reason. (The racers know how to make power, but cracked headers are not uncommon!) Tedd McHenry tedd(at)idacom.hp.com Edmonton, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: Ronald Vandervort <rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Tech Advisor, Att. John Ammeter
I lost your e-mail address, if I had it, John. The RV-8 in addition to the 6 and 6A..yeah that's tempting...! As I am about to close up the skin on my horizontal, and seeing the question about tech inspection posed by another builder: I ask you, do I need some expert to look in on my horizontal before I close it up? I am keeping a log of my activities as I go with pictures and signatures. I live at Apex. Drop in sometime with that nimble aeromachine of yours. I'll hide the RV-6A parts...! Ron Vandervort ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Bob Gibbons Archive Search Engine
Hi Folks, I have downloaded, decompressed, installed and printed out the info sheets on Bob Gibbons' Archive Search Engine program (very impressive documentation, Bob). Sure looks like it is JUST what I have been hoping for. However, I don't know where to get the RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip file. Looks like roxy.llnl.gov is out of business. At least, I can't get to it via Anonymous FTP. (Seems like info about this was on the RV List a while back, but can't remember -- sorry, guys, too much priming in close quarters. Also, if I just had this search engine, I could find the message . . .). Also, Bob mentioned that someone was qoing to put the archive file(s) on an FTP site in the near(?) future. Is there a way to get it right now? Not the UNIX version -- can't deal with that. Thanks for any info. Bill -- ___ _______________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \______________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Judith Bennett" <elanora(at)zip.com.au>
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: RVs and ice
Gil, I agree about the LENGTH of the ribs, but as I read it he has problems with the WIDTH. Haven't heard of this before. I wonder if he has them in the right sequence? Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > > >BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too wide at the > >F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when > >properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they > >advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the rib is > > Vans Hotline - Short memories and lack of logging builder's comments!! I > still have an outstanding bet with Frank Justice (a pint of premium brew) > that Vans hotline does not log buiders problems in any consistent manner > (after my tip-up canopy/electric flap design error -- "you are the third > one this week") -- see the RV-list archives. > > Did you talk to Ken "hit it with a bigger hammer" Scott, or Tom "just make > it fit" Green? .... :^) > > Every local builder has had this problem on kits that date back over 2 > years and as recent as 6 months old. One side is worse than the other. > The standard fix that Vans hotline recommends (funny they haven't heard of > it before, but they have a standard fix) is to move the baggage floor ribs > inwards until they fit. For one side this fix is either impossible, or > needs an excessive movement. Locally, most builders have been doing what > you say below, removing the flange, and riveting another flange in it's > place. This replacement flange can just be bent from some scrap 0.025 > stock - no need to use 0.063. > > Also, when you line up the bottom skin side flange of the baggage ribs at > the baggage bulkhead end, remember to allow for the 0.025 skin thickness of > the aft skins that will be "under" the baggage area skins at the overlap. > > >wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the > > You are right, the parts don't meet the prints. Since all of the flanges > on these parts are straight lines, I suspect that they have been bent in a > brake, and not over hard tooling. My parts were shiny Alclad, not dull > like the parts that have been heat treated after forming. > > >same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm > >missing > > It is happening to lots of others. > > >something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a > >replacement .063 angle at the correct height? > > > >Happy building/flying, > >Bruce Stobbe > >(flying in imagination; building in reality) > >fuse skeleton (still) > > ...... wishing Van would actually log builders problems for > correlation and analysis. The two local builders at this stage are finding > _exactly_ the same dimensional errors I found 15 months ago. > > ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Judith Bennett" <elanora(at)zip.com.au>
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6 stuff (was Thanks to Matt)
To help you stop worrying and start building.... I understand smoking rivets are seen on RV4s used for aerobatics. Bill Benedict advised no evidence yet on -6s as they are beefed up at the firewall/fuse join compared to the -4. Nevertheless he advises 1/8 rivets around bottom front skin, not just firewall. Floor stiffeners of 1/8 are useful to reduce noise generated by floor drumming. Plywood panels between stiffeners also help. I have made a leading edge stall warning indicator but haven't flight tested it. It works down to below 70kph (~40 knots) out the car window! Will get around to drawing it one day as I have to get it approved by a licenced engineer. It looks a bit like those used here on Cherokees and uses a photo-optic switch interrupted by the tab and driving a simple oscillator in the cabin. Otherwise it uses scrap 2024 and PVC drain pipe. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > Immediate interest/concern: Smoking rivets at the base of firewall; Any > ideas on beefing up structure of cabin floor or sidewall between firewall > and spar, in addition to more rivets than the plan calls for? Loose rivets > here seem likely due to the structure's inability to absorb the strain of > rough field landing gear loads and/or heavy engine + prop. Is anyone > considering thicker skins, 1/8 rather than 1/16 stiffners in floor, > additional structure, etc? > > General interest: > 1. A four-into-one exhaust system for increased power and noise reduction. > Has anyone put one on a 6? > 2. Front injector and inlet in lower front of canopy. > 3. Quietness inside through sound attenuation materials. > 4. Sealing the sliding canopy and any other drafts. > 5. Seat material to provide both comfort and visibility over nose. > 6. Any ideas on drag reduction, such as restricting cooling airflow with > cowl vents in cruise, fairings at the wing junction, alternatives to springs > and chain to tail wheel, any "lopresti" type improvements. > 7. Availability of a simple angle-of-attack indicator, or a design for one. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
>> >> >>On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Randall Henderson wrote: >> >>> SHHHHH! Dammit, you want EVERYONE to know???? There goes my "taildragger >>> pilot mystique!" >> >>(Chuckle) I'm drooling with anticipation of the day I can taxi up to a >>bunch of my nosedragger friends, cut the mixture while booting the left >>rudder to unlock the full-swivel tailwheel, coast to a top at the end of >>90 degrees rotation, and slide the canopy back. >> >>Ah, yes! >> >>Best Regards, >>Dave Barnhart >>rv-6 sn 23744 > SNIP> >Ah yes, the mystique of the 'Taildragger'; never let anyone attempt to >discredit the skills and abilities needed to master the secrets of the dance >of the two feet. Nose dragger pilots, and I use the term 'pilots' >generously, will never appreciate what they have not experienced. > >John Ammeter >ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com >Seattle WA, USA >RV-6 N16JA >Flying 5 years > Chuckle, Chuckle, ..... I'm sorry, but you have to permit those of us that have a "few" more hours with the little wheel in the back to sit back and smile. Yea we all learned and you can too. But time will teach you something else about a ship with a wheel on the tail. RESPECT. I don't have a billion hours in a coventional (yea tailwheeled birds are conventional) aircraft, but I've flown a bunch of different ones and they vary all over the board in "pucker factor". Here's my sampler...The RV is (IMHO) a 3 on a 1 to 10 (10 being the toughest ) The champ is a 4, citabria & decathlon a 5, skybolt with 540 a 7, luscombe an 8, Pitts a 9, and a Beech 18 with the left one out, off the scale. The funny thing is on a given day for no known reason any of the above can act up and scare hell out of you. There is a a local faa examiner (That shall go unnamed) that has a billion hours in taildraggers and gives checkrides in among other things DC-3's that recently lost a champ while checking out a new guy. Lost it on a take off and it wasn't even windy. Go figure. Any way....just about anybody can learn... and I keep learning. But I still have to smile. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Interior Finishing
Peter Hanna raised the subject of interior finishing and sound deadening. George and I have finished two planes of our own and here is what we learned from the experience. Many of you want to keep your planes light so won't put full interiors in. We have found, with the fabric on the sidewalls, 1/4" foam panels beside the occupants (covered with fabric) and carpet on the floor (over two layers of sleeping bag underlayment roll to fill up to the top of the floor stiffeners in a 6) that the noise level in the cockpit is very reasonable and climate control is much easier and more efficient. The sleeping bag underlayment is a roll of 3/8" foam used under sleeping bags and available at outdoor and camping stores. Many times I remove my headset while George taxis over to the gas pumps and am not uncomfortable at all. We also used a foam to insulate the firewall which helps to reduce noise. We have also discovered that the comfort of the seats is more contributed to the shape of the seat than the foam the seat is made of. Our first plane used temper foam and it was hard as a rock in cool weather. Also, because of the shape of the seat bottom, I was squirming after 90 minutes. Our second plane uses a medium density foam with the seat bottom at a different angle and we have flown for well over 2 1/2 hours without a thought of squirming. Unfortunately, we haven't taken this plane on a long trip yet, so I can't say how 3+ hours will be, but from the current experience I think my first requirement when we arrive will be the restroom, not a chiropractor. When we build seats for others, we strive to build the seat bottom so the pilot's head will be only a couple inches from the canopy, giving the best visibility and leaving room for turbulance. When the seat bottom gets beyond a certain thickness, we use a very firm foam on the bottom of the cushion to prevent the continued compression that occurs with only medium weight foam. As for sealing the sliding canopy, getting the rear skins as tight as possible seems to be critical. We shimmed the frame while fitting the skins so when it was closed it would fit that much more tightly. And we did do two sets of skins before we got it right. Becki Orndorff Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy -Reply
>>> David A. Barnhart 01/30/96 08:34pm >>> (Chuckle) I'm drooling with anticipation of the day I can taxi up to a bunch of my nosedragger friends, cut the mixture while booting the left rudder to unlock the full-swivel tailwheel, coast to a top at the end of 90 degrees rotation, and slide the canopy back. Ah, yes! Yes, after planting a wheel landing and motoring up the lenght of the runway tothe taxi way with the tail held up. Just don't over swing the tail and knock over the fuel pump.:{ Jim RV6 skinning wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: Bob Gibbons Archive Search Engine
>-------------- >Hi Folks, > >I have downloaded, decompressed, installed and printed out the info >sheets on Bob Gibbons' Archive Search Engine program (very impressive >documentation, Bob). Sure looks like it is JUST what I have been >hoping for. > >However, I don't know where to get the RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip >file. Looks like roxy.llnl.gov is out of business. At least, I can't >get to it via Anonymous FTP. (Seems like info about this was on the RV >List a while back, but can't remember -- sorry, guys, too much priming >in close quarters. Also, if I just had this search engine, I could >find the message . . .). > >Also, Bob mentioned that someone was qoing to put the archive file(s) >on an FTP site in the near(?) future. Is there a way to get it right >now? Not the UNIX version -- can't deal with that. Thanks for any >info. > Bill >-- > Okay okay! I wasn't quite ready to announce it yet, but the archives are now available at "ftp.matronics.com" under "/pub/business/matronics". You should see a significant increase in performance on the new site as well. I plan to add Bob's search engine to the site as soon as I get a chance. In the interest of conserving space on the new ftp site, the only versions of the archive that available are the digested files. The complete version is available in a couple of version and then there are the small, broken up versions. Let me know if you have any problems. I will still officially announce the site later when the search engine is available there. Happy downloading, Matt Dralle RV-List Admin. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: PFPA(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-List- RV photo wanted
Doug, My E-mail address is PFPA(at)aol.com. Thanks in advannce for the picture. Andy Gold ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
I can't speak from experience, so this advice is worth what you pay for it. Here's what I know: For a CS prop you need an engine with a hollow crank; some engines have them but there is a plug in the end for fixed pitch props and you can take it out for CS. Others have a solid crank that will have to be replaced. CS props I THINK have something like a 500 hour TBO, I don't know what it costs, but I suspect it's something you want your local prop shop to do instead of doing yourself. It is certainly possible to start with a fixed pitch and change to a CS. There are a few guys around here who have done this, but probably just as many who intended to do so but just haven't been able to bite the bullet and make the change. I don't suppose it's trivial, but neither is building an airplane :-) I'm not so sure about handling -- my experience with aerobatics (admittedly not much) is that you can do a lot without yanking the plane around or pulling many Gs. And with a fixed pitch it can actually be EASIER in some ways, since you just set the throttle and the prop changes pitch as you climb or descend so it won't overspeed. I've flown with Bill Benedict a lot and he does some nice stuff in the factory RV-6T/ fixed pitch. But as I say, my experience is pretty much limited to looking/riding at this point. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Baggage ribs (was: RVs and ice)
>Gil, I agree about the LENGTH of the ribs, but as I read it he has >problems with the WIDTH. Haven't heard of this before. I wonder if he >has them in the right sequence? > >Peter Bennett >Sydney Australia >RV6 skinning fuselage Peter, it is a width problem. There is also a length problem, but I didn't mention that because it is quite easy to rebend the ends (the aft end in particular) to the shorter dimension needed, as well as re-adjusting the angle of the aft end. This is impossible - at least for me - on the longer lengths of the skin flange. I could have forced one side to fit, but the other side was over 1/8 in out (in the width direction of the part), so I just cut both flanges off and riveted a bent 0.025 angle on. I used 3/23 rivets and kept the same spacing as the skin rivets for no strength loss. The compromise here is between a flat bottom skin and a flat baggage floor. Again, I think these parts were bent in a brake one flange at a time, and we are just seeing the effects of a sizeable batch of bad parts. The print dimensions do seem better than the part dimensions! The other local error on almost all of the -6 fuselages is the outer seat ribs (F-615 L&R) being about 1/8 low. I am guessing that folks either distort the seat pan down as they rivet/bolt, or add 1/8 shims to it's upper flange. ... keep on skinning .... Gil Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com RV6A, #20701 ... plexiglas (waiting for a warm day) and interior stuff > >> >> >BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too >>wide at the >> >F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when >> >properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they >> >advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the >>rib is >> >> Vans Hotline - Short memories and lack of logging builder's comments!! I >> still have an outstanding bet with Frank Justice (a pint of premium brew) >> that Vans hotline does not log buiders problems in any consistent manner >> (after my tip-up canopy/electric flap design error -- "you are the third >> one this week") -- see the RV-list archives. >> >> Did you talk to Ken "hit it with a bigger hammer" Scott, or Tom "just make >> it fit" Green? .... :^) >> >> Every local builder has had this problem on kits that date back over 2 >> years and as recent as 6 months old. One side is worse than the other. >> The standard fix that Vans hotline recommends (funny they haven't heard of >> it before, but they have a standard fix) is to move the baggage floor ribs >> inwards until they fit. For one side this fix is either impossible, or >> needs an excessive movement. Locally, most builders have been doing what >> you say below, removing the flange, and riveting another flange in it's >> place. This replacement flange can just be bent from some scrap 0.025 >> stock - no need to use 0.063. >> >> Also, when you line up the bottom skin side flange of the baggage ribs at >> the baggage bulkhead end, remember to allow for the 0.025 skin thickness of >> the aft skins that will be "under" the baggage area skins at the overlap. >> >> >wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the >> >> You are right, the parts don't meet the prints. Since all of the flanges >> on these parts are straight lines, I suspect that they have been bent in a >> brake, and not over hard tooling. My parts were shiny Alclad, not dull >> like the parts that have been heat treated after forming. >> >> >same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm >> >missing >> >> It is happening to lots of others. >> >> >something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a >> >replacement .063 angle at the correct height? >> > >> >Happy building/flying, >> >Bruce Stobbe >> >(flying in imagination; building in reality) >> >fuse skeleton (still) >> >> ...... wishing Van would actually log builders problems for >> correlation and analysis. The two local builders at this stage are finding >> _exactly_ the same dimensional errors I found 15 months ago. >> >> ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Bob
I've updated the RV search program to GPF on anyone who calls me Bob. Not that I have anything against the name Bob, it's just not mine. BF Gibbons ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
SNIP... >Can anyone provide any information about the cost and effort of >maintaining a CS prop relative to a fixed pitch prop? > >Tedd McHenry >Edmonton, Canada >tedd(at)idacom.hp.com > Ted: I run an HC C2yk Hartzell on my 180 hp 4. You need to have an engine with a governor mount pad and a hollow crank. The designator on a Lycoming is "1" as in 0-360 A1A. You can mount a fixed pitch to a hollow crank but there are some things you do that make it hard to go back and put a C/S on later. If you are going to do it, do it from the start as there are cowl considerations. You can change, but again its work. As far as care and feeding....anual maintenance is no big deal. Inspect and grease. TBO's vary but usually are 5 years or 500 hours suggested. Governors are 2000 hours. Hartzell will get mine at 500 hours. I have not priced it. It's worth whatever they charge. Aerobatics....most competition aerobatic aircraft have C/S props. It's the way to go. Basically it helps you go up and slows you going down. Nice. Performance.....I.M.H.O. the only way to go. I've flown RV's with fixed and they are nice but the C/S is great. Climbout is spectacular, you don't wind the engine out at altitude, you can slow the aircraft better, but all this costs $$$$$. It's a personal decision. Whatever you do, you will have a great airplane. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HowardRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Wing Skins
Any of you guys back drill the wing skins? If you did, did you do the whole thing, or just the top and bottom hole of each rib then line the holes up, measure, and drill the skins? Thanks Howard Kidwell howardrv(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Engines Weights (fwd)
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Whom ever had the question on CS vs fixed pitch. Now that Van's had standardized on one cowl (the CS cowl) it will make it easier to change back and forth between FP and CS. There use to be two different cowls; FP and CS. The fixed pitch used a 4 inch extension. Now Vans is just using the CS cowl and therefore you use something like a 2 inch extension for the fixed pitch prop. You of course have to have the proper engine setup to go to CS (right crank and the prop governer). Herman Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Exhaust wrapping
REGARDING Exhaust wrapping Even though I am opposed to wrapping an exhaust system - for the very same reasons there is merit to consider wrapping your heat muff(s). The wrap slows the heat transfer (i.e., radiation/conduction) through your tubes and they cook at much elevated temperatures - drastically lowering their cycle life. However, for the heat muff(s) this is exactly what you want to do. The idea is to impart as much heat to the muff air as possible. By slowing the transfer of the heat through the muff outer shell it will run hotter. Wrapping is the only way to do this. Of course, deterioration will be faster than an unwrapped part but the outer shell is a non-critical part (if it leaks) and inspection and/or replacement is easier compared to the exhaust system. Elon. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: RV6 stuff
>To help you stop worrying and start building.... >I understand smoking rivets are seen on RV4s used for aerobatics. >Bill Benedict advised no evidence yet on -6s as they are beefed up at This is NOT the case. I have seen an early effect on a -6A, and the previous RV-list archive discussions will point you to many references of this on -6 and -6As >the firewall/fuse join compared to the -4. Nevertheless he advises Early -4s had actual structural failures in this area, at least we are only talking smoking rivets here ... :^) >1/8 rivets around bottom front skin, not just firewall. Floor This is interesting. there has been no plans update distributed to change these rivets. 3/32 are still called out on the firewall flange. 1/8 have always been called out along the sides of the floorboard skins. I am interpreting "around bottom front skin" to mean that the floorboard rivets to the F-604 main bulkhead are now recommended to be 1/8 - the plans still show 3/32 at this skin overlap?? Question for Portland locals: Has Van stopped giving plans updates in the RVator? I think there have been none in the past 3 issues. If so, how are plans updates getting distributed.? Are slower builders just missing out on updates since everyone now gets a "fresh" set of plans with every kit, and no further info? Any other factory "recommendations" around there not published to the world? Gil Alexander ..... RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com >stiffeners of 1/8 are useful to reduce noise generated by floor >drumming. Plywood panels between stiffeners also help. > *** snip *** > >Peter Bennett >Sydney Australia >RV6 skinning fuselage >> Immediate interest/concern: Smoking rivets at the base of firewall; Any >> ideas on beefing up structure of cabin floor or sidewall between firewall >> and spar, in addition to more rivets than the plan calls for? Loose rivets >> here seem likely due to the structure's inability to absorb the strain of >> rough field landing gear loads and/or heavy engine + prop. Is anyone >> considering thicker skins, 1/8 rather than 1/16 stiffners in floor, >> additional structure, etc? *** snip *** ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: "Steve Day" <sday(at)pharmcomp.com>
Subject: Search Engine by B F Gibbons
If you haven't tried his new archive search program, give it a whirl. I think he deserves the most useful rv-list tool of the year award. :-) Maybe someone could convince Van's Aircraft to hand out a free rv for the best rv-list tool award. (yeah right) Either that, or maybe award a golden rivet. hehe Great job Sir, I think this archive search tool is gonna come in really handy when I get further along in the project and start needing questions answered that have probably already been beaten to death. (kinda like the primer thing :-) -Steve Day sday(at)pharmcomp.com (CK ID - RV6a RV for short) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: Engines Weights)
(Randall Henderson) writes: >It is certainly possible to start with a fixed pitch and change to a >CS. There are a few guys around here who have done this, but probably >just as many who intended to do so but just haven't been able to bite >the bullet and make the change. I don't suppose it's trivial, but >neither is building an airplane :-) I've had the C2YK CS from the beginning. I also have the ORIGINAL cowl which had to have 1 3/4 inches removed from the rear to accomodate the non-extended CS prop. I have considered going to a fixed pitch prop for reasons below. Problem is that the standard prop extension from Van's put the prop too far forward. So I would have to mess with the cowl, or get a special extension made. So I scrapped the plan. I'm not sure what Van is selling now, I heard that it is a shorter cowl than the original. SO he must be providing a shorter extension. SO, maybe new builders have the option of either prop with the same cowl.?? Doesn't help me much. After flying several 6's and 6A's with a variety of props I conclude that I like the way the airplane handles better with a fixed pitch prop. It's a distinctly different feeling airplane and the differences are somewhat hard to describe. The fixed pitch feels more agile to me, meaning that the a/c changes direction and attitude more quickly and easily. The CS a/c feels a little more like a Mooney, except not nearly so heavy on the controls. I like my CS a lot because of the pitch range. At cruise power settings you will have considerably less noise and vibration than the FP running at your same airspeed. Since most of the FP props have much more blade area, you will have a double advantage at altitudes where the air gets thinner. All things considered (including the variety of props available) I think the CS is still the best. Since I have a 180, the range of props available to me is less than those with the 150/160. Of course some are not averse to using the re-made metal props which perform very well, but they have lost their appeal to me. Martin Sutter in Dallas has a certified wood Sensenich on his 180/RV6 which was designed for that aircraft. It has much larger blades than most of the other wood props you see, and he reports good numbers on it. Jim Stugart DerFlieger(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Baggage ribs too wide, RV6
Text item: Van's has heard of the problem described below and they have several opininons depending on who you talk to. It is actually not a big deal if the floor is not flat, but if you want it to be, move the outer baggage ribs inboard a little bit from the location shown in the plans and they will be the right width. The parts are made on a mold which has not changed; some people have noticed the problem but most have not since the discrepancy is small and the result insignificant. And no, Van's still does not log problem calls. FKJ >Gil, I agree about the LENGTH of the ribs, but as I read it he has >problems with the WIDTH. Haven't heard of this before. I wonder if he >has them in the right sequence? > >Peter Bennett >Sydney Australia >RV6 skinning fuselage Peter, it is a width problem. There is also a length problem, but I didn't mention that because it is quite easy to rebend the ends (the aft end in particular) to the shorter dimension needed, as well as re-adjusting the angle of the aft end. This is impossible - at least for me - on the longer lengths of the skin flange. I could have forced one side to fit, but the other side was over 1/8 in out (in the width direction of the part), so I just cut both flanges off and riveted a bent 0.025 angle on. I used 3/23 rivets and kept the same spacing as the skin rivets for no strength loss. The compromise here is between a flat bottom skin and a flat baggage floor. Again, I think these parts were bent in a brake one flange at a time, and we are just seeing the effects of a sizeable batch of bad parts. The print dimensions do seem better than the part dimensions! The other local error on almost all of the -6 fuselages is the outer seat ribs (F-615 L&R) being about 1/8 low. I am guessing that folks either distort the seat pan down as they rivet/bolt, or add 1/8 shims to it's upper flange. ... keep on skinning .... Gil Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com RV6A, #20701 ... plexiglas (waiting for a warm day) and interior stuff > >> >> >BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too >>wide at the >> >F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when >> >properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they >> >advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the >>rib is >> >> Vans Hotline - Short memories and lack of logging builder's comments!! I >> still have an outstanding bet with Frank Justice (a pint of premium brew) >> that Vans hotline does not log buiders problems in any consistent manner >> (after my tip-up canopy/electric flap design error -- "you are the third >> one this week") -- see the RV-list archives. >> >> Did you talk to Ken "hit it with a bigger hammer" Scott, or Tom "just make >> it fit" Green? .... :^) >> >> Every local builder has had this problem on kits that date back over 2 >> years and as recent as 6 months old. One side is worse than the other. >> The standard fix that Vans hotline recommends (funny they haven't heard of >> it before, but they have a standard fix) is to move the baggage floor ribs >> inwards until they fit. For one side this fix is either impossible, or >> needs an excessive movement. Locally, most builders have been doing what >> you say below, removing the flange, and riveting another flange in it's >> place. This replacement flange can just be bent from some scrap 0.025 >> stock - no need to use 0.063. >> >> Also, when you line up the bottom skin side flange of the baggage ribs at >> the baggage bulkhead end, remember to allow for the 0.025 skin thickness of >> the aft skins that will be "under" the baggage area skins at the overlap. >> >> >wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the >> >> You are right, the parts don't meet the prints. Since all of the flanges >> on these parts are straight lines, I suspect that they have been bent in a >> brake, and not over hard tooling. My parts were shiny Alclad, not dull >> like the parts that have been heat treated after forming. >> >> >same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm >> >missing >> >> It is happening to lots of others. >> >> >something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a >> >replacement .063 angle at the correct height? >> > >> >Happy building/flying, >> >Bruce Stobbe >> >(flying in imagination; building in reality) >> >fuse skeleton (still) >> >> ...... wishing Van would actually log builders problems for >> correlation and analysis. The two local builders at this stage are finding >> _exactly_ the same dimensional errors I found 15 months ago. >> >> ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com >> >> >> Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: RV-List: Baggage ribs (was: RVs and ice) From: rassp.hac.com!gil(at)matronics.com (Gil Alexander) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:08:07 -0800 4.1) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Electric Trim
Fellow builders, I'm starting the elevators real soon and have purchased the electric trim option. I would like your inputs on location of the servo vs. the factory method. I've read about fuselage mounting with custom cables. Any and all inputs appreciated. TIA Ed Cole RV6 24430 Empennage ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Skins
I taped the skin in place and drew the outline of the ribs on the inside of the skin. I used a red sharpie for the flange side and a blue sharpe for the web side. Removed the skin and marked where the holes were to go by Measuring 5/16 from the red line and drew a center line. I then used a template to mark the cord-wise location of the holes. Drilled the skin undersize (#45) on the bench. Put the skin back in place and drilled #40 through the #45 holes and into the ribs. All of the holes ended up on the center line of the rib and only one didnt hit the mark that I had on the ribs. That is to say, not more that a sharpie line width off from where I planed for the hole to go. I also made some small clamps from .032 that work great to hold the main skin flat against the main spar. See the Dwg. below. This Dwg assumes that the LE skins have been drilled to the spar. Slide one of these things on a cleco and put in a hole in the LE skin. This keeps the main skin pressed in place while you locate it. Bend the ends of the clamp to allow sliding the main skin in place from below. If you drill a #40 in one end, and a #30 in the other, you can use them for both sizes of cleco. I made about 20 of the clamps and used one every 10 inches or so along the skin. Chris | <--- LE skin | ______ | _________ ^ ||/ | | | ||| | | Spar-->||| <---Cleco Here | o |<--- Drill #40 here ||| | | | | | | ||| <---Clamp | | ||| | | ||| | O | <--Drill #30 ||\ |_________| | | <--- Main Skin | > > Any of you guys back drill the wing skins? If you did, did you do the whole > thing, or just the top and bottom hole of each rib then line the holes up, > measure, and drill the skins? > > Thanks > Howard Kidwell > howardrv(at)aol.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen )
Subject: Smoking rivets??
What are "smoking rivits"???? Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Baggage ribs (was: RVs and ice)
umm.... Just in defence of Van's aircraft. I think this problem might be fixed. My fuselage kit (shipped in June 95 seems to be OK. The bottom skins are on and if I lie a straight edge along the baggage floor it looks OK too. I had been warned about the problem and spent an anguished night searching for the misfit when it wasn't there. Cheers, Leo >>Gil, I agree about the LENGTH of the ribs, but as I read it he has >>problems with the WIDTH. Haven't heard of this before. I wonder if he >>has them in the right sequence? >> >>Peter Bennett >>Sydney Australia >>RV6 skinning fuselage > >Peter, it is a width problem. > There is also a length problem, but I didn't mention that because >it is quite easy to rebend the ends (the aft end in particular) to the >shorter dimension needed, as well as re-adjusting the angle of the aft end. >This is impossible - at least for me - on the longer lengths of the skin >flange. I could have forced one side to fit, but the other side was over >1/8 in out (in the width direction of the part), so I just cut both >flanges off and riveted a bent 0.025 angle on. I used 3/23 rivets and kept >the same spacing as the skin rivets for no strength loss. The compromise >here is between a flat bottom skin and a flat baggage floor. > > Again, I think these parts were bent in a brake one flange at a >time, and we are just seeing the effects of a sizeable batch of bad parts. >The print dimensions do seem better than the part dimensions! > > The other local error on almost all of the -6 fuselages is the >outer seat ribs (F-615 L&R) being about 1/8 low. I am guessing that folks >either distort the seat pan down as they rivet/bolt, or add 1/8 shims to >it's upper flange. > > ... keep on skinning .... Gil Alexander > >gil(at)rassp.hac.com >RV6A, #20701 ... plexiglas (waiting for a warm >day) and interior stuff > >> >>> >>> >BTW, baggage floor ribs - has anyone else had the F-625s end up too >>>wide at the >>> >F606 - like 1/4 in too high compared with the other baggage floor ribs when >>> >properly aligned with the bottom of F606? I contacted Van's today and they >>> >advised that they had not heard of any problems - but I checked and the >>>rib is >>> >>> Vans Hotline - Short memories and lack of logging builder's comments!! I >>> still have an outstanding bet with Frank Justice (a pint of premium brew) >>> that Vans hotline does not log buiders problems in any consistent manner >>> (after my tip-up canopy/electric flap design error -- "you are the third >>> one this week") -- see the RV-list archives. >>> >>> Did you talk to Ken "hit it with a bigger hammer" Scott, or Tom "just make >>> it fit" Green? .... :^) >>> >>> Every local builder has had this problem on kits that date back over 2 >>> years and as recent as 6 months old. One side is worse than the other. >>> The standard fix that Vans hotline recommends (funny they haven't heard of >>> it before, but they have a standard fix) is to move the baggage floor ribs >>> inwards until they fit. For one side this fix is either impossible, or >>> needs an excessive movement. Locally, most builders have been doing what >>> you say below, removing the flange, and riveting another flange in it's >>> place. This replacement flange can just be bent from some scrap 0.025 >>> stock - no need to use 0.063. >>> >>> Also, when you line up the bottom skin side flange of the baggage ribs at >>> the baggage bulkhead end, remember to allow for the 0.025 skin thickness of >>> the aft skins that will be "under" the baggage area skins at the overlap. >>> >>> >wider than the prints say it should be, and since they are all formed in the >>> >>> You are right, the parts don't meet the prints. Since all of the flanges >>> on these parts are straight lines, I suspect that they have been bent in a >>> brake, and not over hard tooling. My parts were shiny Alclad, not dull >>> like the parts that have been heat treated after forming. >>> >>> >same fixture, someone should have had this happen besides me, unless I'm >>> >missing >>> >>> It is happening to lots of others. >>> >>> >something!? If so, what did you do - remove the flange and rivet on a >>> >replacement .063 angle at the correct height? >>> > >>> >Happy building/flying, >>> >Bruce Stobbe >>> >(flying in imagination; building in reality) >>> >fuse skeleton (still) >>> >>> ...... wishing Van would actually log builders problems for >>> correlation and analysis. The two local builders at this stage are finding >>> _exactly_ the same dimensional errors I found 15 months ago. >>> >>> ... Gil Alexander, RV6A, #20701 gil(at)rassp.hac.com >>> >>> >>> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: "Earl Brabandt" <cwbraban(at)ichips.intel.com>
Randall sez: > CS props I THINK have something like a 500 hour TBO, I don't know what > it costs, but I suspect it's something you want your local prop shop to > do instead of doing yourself. Hartzels often get overhauled at 1500 hours or 5 years whichever comes first due to a now rescinded AD. Costs vary, but $1k isn't unheard-of. Corrosion was the original impetus behind the AD but anti-corrosion processes at Hartzel have improved the situation such that few problems have been found in the field recently. By the way, if you fly a lot of x/c, you should be able to pay for your prop overhauls in fuel savings with a C/S prop. > I'm not so sure about handling -- my experience with aerobatics > (admittedly not much) is that you can do a lot without yanking the > plane around or pulling many Gs. And with a fixed pitch it can actually > be EASIER in some ways, since you just set the throttle and the prop > changes pitch as you climb or descend so it won't overspeed. I've flown > with Bill Benedict a lot and he does some nice stuff in the factory > RV-6T/ fixed pitch. But as I say, my experience is pretty much limited > to looking/riding at this point. All-out aerobatic airplanes generally have constant speed props because they don't require attention to prevent ergine overspeed and they produce more drag in a dive helping to limit airspeed and the extra prop disc mass is desirable for gyroscopics. The RVs aren't all-out aerobatic airplanes though. Still, I'll second Randall's previously posted opinions on c/s prop merits. My personal order of preference is a 180 HP w/ CS first. Next would be a 160 HP w/ CS and lastly, anything with a fixed pitch prop. An interesting factory airplane comparison is a 180 HP Mooney against a 180 HP Grumman Tiger. The service ceiling of the Mooney is about 4000' higher and it typically climbs about 200' per minute faster. It's also usually about 10 mph faster in cruise than the Tiger particularly at high altitude where the Tiger loses horsepower to the Mooney because its prop can't spin fast enough to allow the engine to produce as much power. Is the performance difference due to the clean aerodynamic, retractable design of the Mooney? Partly yes, but I suspect that the bulk of the performance edge is due to the C/S prop of the Mooney over the fixed pitch prop of the Tiger. Cal ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Baggage ribs too wide, RV6
MAIL DELETED BECAUSE OF LACK OF DISK SPACE ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Baggage ribs too wide, RV6
RegarFrom owner-rv-list Wed Jan 31 18:00:00 1996 From: RFlunker(at)aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:34:28 -0500 Subject: RV-List: Emp Skins For Sale I have a set of .016 RV-6 Rudder and Elevator skins for sale at a very reasonable price. If you are interested contact me directly at RFLUNKER(at)AOL.COM ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: James Kelley <72466.1355(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Back riveting top wing skin
> However, I started using >a technique I think was mentioned by Don Wentz (??) that essentilally >obviates the need to back rivet; rivet the normal way and then use a >piece of wood ( I used a 3/4"x 3/4" x 12" piece of oak) and lightly tap the >rivets from the shop head side with a hammer. The indentations that >normally occur from front riveting disappear and you get a nice smooth >surface, and it only takes a couple minutes. I've done my whole fuselage >this way and all the skins are just as smooth as my back riveted wing >skins. I talked to a builder in Blairsville GA and he did something like the above idea. He used the rivet gun and placed the flat set to the shop head letting the gun gently push the skin back out. I guess that a piece of wood would have the same effect, just in slow motion and maybe with more control. Sounds like an excellent idea though, I'll be trying it when the time comes. James Kelley (Building main spars.) Atlanta, GA. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: "Thomas N. Martin" <103212.65(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: tail wheels
I have about 400 hours on tail wheel aircraft over 10 years. 85 hours is in my new RV-4. I had forgotten how much "status" there seems to be with tail wheels. I would not let pride get in the way of deciding whether to go with a 6 or a 6A. The RV-4 is an easy aircraft to handle on the ground. In your first hour or so of check out it seems that you will never get it right. And then of course you do. NEVER forget that when you least expect it a tail wheel aircraft will make you feel like you are in your first hour again. Enough said on this topic IMHO Tom Martin ________________________________________________________________________________
From: blea(at)hic.net
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6 stuff (was Thanks to Matt) bad header info reply
conserns cracked fusaloge skins I know of at least one person in the Bakersfield EAA bunch who installed a couple of extra longerons to "stiffen up" the belly skins and stop oil canning. He would up with cracks in his fusaloge skins. Said that the problem was not carrying them all the way to the bulkhead. I havent checked back with him lately to see if he's had any more trouble or if his fix worked. In any case, if you start stiffening things up you better be sure you have some place for the stress to go else you'll have an unpleasant supprise. By which I mean be real careful changeing the design. Bill Lea ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6 stuff
>Question for Portland locals: > > Has Van stopped giving plans updates in the RVator? I think there >have been none in the past 3 issues. > > If so, how are plans updates getting distributed.? Are slower >builders just missing out on updates since everyone now gets a "fresh" set >of plans with every kit, and no further info? > > Any other factory "recommendations" around there not published to >the world? > > Gil Alexander ..... RV6A, #20701 Gil Actually us *Home Wing* guys (Portland Rvators) just keep all the good secrets to ourselves, all the neat little tricks that we learn from the master himself as we go to breakfast with him on Sat. Morns. and and to all the local flyins, we do this so our airplanes are better than the rest of the worlds. :=). In reality you learn about updates about the same way we do here, either by word of mouth or if there is something in the RVato or through our local RV builders group. I will try to get a answer for you this weekend from one of the people who work for Van or maybe from Van himself. Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14,1989 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com>
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
>What are "smoking rivits"???? > >Finn > > Finn: "Smoking rivets" are rivets that have loosened up in service and vibrated in their hole to the point where a trail of aluminum dust, resembling smoke, has deposited on the skin downstream. The ominous connotation is rightly diserved as, to me, it indicates a serious deficiency in structural integrity in the spar to firewall area. All the stresses of the wing carrying the heavy engine around pass through here, as well as the (perhaps much greater) stresses in the opposite direction of the weight of the aircraft, passengers and fuel during a hard landing. This is occurring at alarmingly low hours on an airframe we expect to last many thousands of hours. What say we compile a database on aircraft showing sighs of loose rivets including: hours, model (4,6,6A), engine, prop, aerobatics or no, field environment(rough, pavement, etc.), landing incident history, landing technique, what else? I assume Van's could use this data, along with some structural analysis, to guide them to an official fix and drawing change. I will volunteer to start a spread sheet and keep track if you all think it's a good idea. Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, H 519.746.9882, B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com RV6, started fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: Gary Tree <grtree(at)itis.com>
Subject: Band Saw Size
I'm just getting started with the building of an RV6. This is the tool procurement stage. I will order the empanage in April. Will I need a band saw? Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? What items will need to be cut? I told you I was just starting. It's hard to read the small size drawings in the review package. Thanks in advance. This listing is very helpful. I liked the comments about conventional aircraft pilots. I currently own & fly a Luscombe 8A. I can't wait to get behind an RV6. Gary Tree ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Subject: Search Engine Instructions
I have posted instructions in word perfect (yea, right) format for those of you who requested it. The file is wpinstr.zip on ftp.intellinet.com pub/users/bfgibbons/rvsource. The rvsearch.zip file now only contains the exe. wordinst.zip is the word file. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)idacom.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
Date: Jan 31, 1996
Thanks to everyone who offered thoughts on my questions about engines and props. I'm really early on in the process (still preparing my workshop), so I'm probably jumping the gun to be worrying about engine and prop choice already. Still, it's a fascinating area of compromise, and you've all given me lots to think about. Tedd McHenry tedd(at)idacom.hp.com Edmonton, Canada ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: lgroom(at)millcomm.com (Larry Groom)
Subject: Trailing Edge Bend
Hello All, I'm working on my rudder at this time and having just riveted the stiffeners to the rudder skin I attempted to make the trailing edge bend. I used the wooden bending brake as suggested by the manual but I'm not happy with the results. I was able to make a bend, but the skin is not in the final shape that I feel it needs to be, ie it is nowhere close to being near the rudder spar. I bent the skin enough to contact the opposite side, but it has alot of "springback". I even put the skin in the rudder jig and there is so much resistance to being forced into the jig shape that there is a bow in between the jig supports. I know there has to be a better way. Can I use my hand seamer? That should work but I doubt I could be consitent with the bend along the edge. It would be nice to figure this out as I'll need to do a bunch more times before it's all done! Thanks in advance for any and all help. Larry RV-6 23782 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Jan 31, 1996
From: COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: interior finishing
Just to pass along something that might be of interest regarding sound deadening materials. Mooney aircraft used to use a type of sound deadening insulation on some of the M20C airplanes built in the '60s and '70s. While I am not sure of the exact nature of the material, I believe it had the ability to retain moisture both in the material, and in the gaps between the material and the structure. This caused significant corrosion problems in aircraft so equipped, and Mooney eventually issued a service bulletin mandating the removal of the insulating materials. Early compliance with this SB is something all prospective used-Mooney owners look for now (along with leaking fuel tanks). Since the Mooney fuselage consists partly of a welded steel tube frame, it might be more susceptible to corrosion from exposure to this type of moisture. Something to consider at any rate.... Bruce Stobbe fuselage skeleton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <elanora(at)zip.com.au>
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
> > I'm just getting started with the building of an RV6. This is the tool > procurement stage. I will order the empanage in April. Will I need a > band saw? Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? > What items will need to be cut? I told you I was just starting. It's > hard to read the small size drawings in the review package. > > Gary Tree My band saw is a freestanding Taiwanese generic brand 4 speed with 14 inch throat. Any smaller throat would be frustrating. It is intended for wood cutting and I use it on the slowest speed with a 24TPI blade for aluminum. I use it all the time. Indispensible. Peter BennettDate: Feb 01, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Trailing Edge Bend -Reply
Larry I think I has the same diffculty also. Are you using the wooden brake flat side or the edge to do the squeesing. There are two different jigs shown at different places in the manual and sketches. I used the flat way so I can't comment on the other. Be sure you hold the bend back into the corner as close to the hinge line of the brake as possible and don't be afraid to put some weight into it. >>> Larry Groom 02/01/96 12:17am >>> Hello All, I'm working on my rudder at this time and having just riveted the stiffeners to the rudder skin I attempted to make the trailing edge bend. I used the wooden bending brake as suggested by the manual but I'm not happy with the results. I was able to make a bend, but the skin is not in the final shape that I feel it needs to be, ie it is nowhere close to being near the rudder spar. I bent the skin enough to contact the opposite side, but it has alot of "springback". I even put the skin in the rudder jig and there is so much resistance to being forced into the jig shape that there is a bow in between the jig supports. I know there has to be a better way. Can I use my hand seamer? That should work but I doubt I could be consitent with the bend along the edge. It would be nice to figure this out as I'll need to do a bunch more times before it's all done! Thanks in advance for any and all help. Larry RV-6 23782 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: Wing Skins
I back drill the whole rib. Dan Boudro On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 aol.com!HowardRV(at)matronics.com wrote: > Any of you guys back drill the wing skins? If you did, did you do the whole > thing, or just the top and bottom hole of each rib then line the holes up, > measure, and drill the skins? > > Thanks > Howard Kidwell > howardrv(at)aol.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: "Gene Gottschalk (286-0708)" <geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re:
I don't know of problem specifically relating to aircraft engines,but I had dry powder fire extinguisher used on a motorcycle I crashed while racing. An over zealous corner worker was quick on the trigger, and as it turned out there was no fire, just steam from a broken radiator. I took months of effort to get it even close to operating properly. It is like blowing fine sand into everything. I couldn't find anything that would adequately wash it out. First I washed everything in kerosene. That got the bulk of it washed off, but such things a throttle slides, carb linkage, or anything else with close operating clearances would not work reliably. I disassembled the carbs and washed them repeatedly without success. Then I tried hot water with marginally better results. Than soaked them in a bucked of carb cleaner. I never did get the carbs to work as well as before, and ultimately swapped them for another set. BTW, it seems the stuff is also caustic, and hard on skin. Aluminum part started to corrode immediately. Maybe a call to the fire extinguisher co. would result in a recommendation for the best cleaning procedure. -Gene >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >From: lewisjw >Subject: Hazards of Fire Extinguishers & A/C Engines >Subject: Hazards of dry powder fire extinguishers >Can anyone direct me to information on the hazards of using dry powder B/C >and A/B/C fire extinguishers around a/c engines? Thanks. Please reply to >lewisjw(at)hqsocom.af.mil > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HowardRV(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
I'm sure you will get many opinions, so here is mine. I have a small Sears band saw that I used for RC models. I bought one of the 1 hp type on sale (still expensive of course) but with a metal cutting blade, It really goes through the heavier stuff that is used. As I plan on using it for other stuff, I didn't have a problem with the purchase but their is no doubt that one could spend lots of$$ on tools so it's caution here. The "must" is the Scotch brite wheel that Avery's/Van's sell. I use it on a radial arm saw but of course it will work on a grinder. A small band sander is also great. I had a 4" sander and put a 60 grit on it and boy does it take off the Alum. It's easy to get carried away with the tools but of course some are needed. And for you younger types, you will probably build another anyway!! Howard Kidwell howardrv(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: S_Gesele(at)villagenet.com (Scott)
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
>I'm just getting started with the building of an RV6. This is the tool >procurement stage. I will order the empanage in April. Will I need a >band saw? Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? >What items will need to be cut? I told you I was just starting. It's >hard to read the small size drawings in the review package. > >Thanks in advance. This listing is very helpful. I liked the comments >about conventional aircraft pilots. I currently own & fly a >Luscombe 8A. I can't wait to get behind an RV6. > >Gary Tree > > I am using the Delta free-standing 16" three wheel bandsaw. This unit has been used for the entire construction of my -6A, from emp to finish kit. There were no areas of construction where this bandsaw did not perform flawlessly. I looked at the smaller bench-top Delta and Sears, along with the free-standing Sears. The bench-top units break blades very easy, other RV builders in my chapter confirmed this. Also, these small units just didn't seem to have the umph needed to cut large amounts of aluminum. Believe me, there will be times when an entire building session will be infront of that bandsaw. The free-standing Sears seemed crappy when I looked at it. Angled cuts are made by leaving the table stationary and tilting the entire blade and drive unit. There are probably good reasons why Sears is the only company to do this while Delta and the other industrial quality manufacturers tilt the table only. If I remember correctly, there was only a few dollars difference from the Sears to Delta. Any tools that I buy for the RV, I will be able to use for other projects after the plane is finished. I started when I was 23, so I expect to get 40 years out of them. I am building in a two car garage, where room is available for free-standings tools ( bandsaw and drill press). This all influenced my decision for the larger tools. When buying tools, the main thing that I learned is NEVER BUY CHEAP TOOLS, repeat NEVER BUY CHEAP TOOLS. You get what you pay for and it does show in the finished product. Most cheap tools wind up getting replaced, thus costing more in the long run. Hope this helps. Scott N506RV (Rigging wings to fuse) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: mike casmey <102023.1363(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Backriveting tool
Some of you said that your Avery backrivet tool was not bent correctly. I measured mine at 4 degrees and then tried it for the first time. Sure enough it was too shallow and my rivets slanted toward the rib web. If I heat this thing up and bang it 2 more degrees will it be correct for all the angles it is required to rivet. ie. both around the ribs and under the main spar? Are there any better ways to solve the angle problem? Thanks Mike Casmey RV-4 Mpls,MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Trailing Edge Bend
On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Larry Groom wrote: > Hello All, > I'm working on my rudder at this time and having just riveted the > stiffeners to the rudder skin I attempted to make the trailing edge bend. I > used the wooden bending brake as suggested by the manual but I'm not happy > with the results. I was able to make a bend, but the skin is not in the > final shape that I feel it needs to be, ie it is nowhere close to being near > the rudder spar. I bent the skin enough to contact the opposite side, but it > has alot of "springback". I even put the skin in the rudder jig and there is > so much resistance to being forced into the jig shape that there is a bow in > between the jig supports. > I know there has to be a better way. Can I use my hand seamer? That should > work but I doubt I could be consitent with the bend along the edge. It would > be nice to figure this out as I'll need to do a bunch more times before it's > all done! > Thanks in advance for any and all help. I also found it difficult to get the proper bend in the control surfaces. What worked for me was the method used inthe Orndorf video, which is to put a 1/8" dowel (wood is fine, I used music wire) along the inside of the trailing edge, and to keep moving the brake closer to the trailing edge after each bend attempt: \ /\ \ \\ \ \ /\ \\ \ \\ \ \\ \ \\ \ o|\ \ o| \ \ ------- \/ -------- \/ -------- -------- | | | | -------- -------- 1st bend 2nd bend etc... This helps to wrap the trailing edge around the dowel, and with enough attempts, I was able to get the skin formed so that it was within a 1/2 " or so of the spar, after springback. Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Trailing Edge Bend
> I know there has to be a better way. Can I use my hand seamer? That should >work but I doubt I could be consitent with the bend along the edge. > > Larry RV-6 23782 Larry: I wouldn't reccomend using a hand seamer. Put your trailing edge close to the hinge. Do you have long handles on your 2x4 brake? Some builders put a small dowel in the trailing edge. I've not used this method, but I'll bet other "listers" have and can tell us how this works. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Wing Skins
>Any of you guys back drill the wing skins? If you did, did you do the whole >thing, or just the top and bottom hole of each rib then line the holes up, >measure, and drill the skins? > >Thanks >Howard Kidwell >howardrv(at)aol.com > Howard: I believe that you'll get a "truer" hole by not back drilling. I would suggest marking rib locations on the skin and then pilot drilling skins, off the wing, with a smaller than # 41 drill bit. (Where can you buy smaller diameter, split point bits?) Then, put the wing skin back on and drill #42 through the pilot holes. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
> What say we compile a database on aircraft showing sighs of loose rivets >including: hours, model (4,6,6A), engine, prop, aerobatics or no, field >environment(rough, pavement, etc.), landing incident history, landing >technique, what else? I assume Van's could use this data, along with some >structural analysis, to guide them to an official fix and drawing change. I >will volunteer to start a spread sheet and keep track if you all think it's >a good idea. > >Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, >H 519.746.9882, B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com > >RV6, started fuselage. > Peter: Good idea. I've got 200 hrs. on my RV-6, 150 hp Lycoming with wood prop. I've had 4 or 5 landings that were harder than I would've liked to had and probably 10 landings on sod strips that were fairly rough. I generally wheel land. The plane has never been used for acrobatics. I have 5 or 6 #3 flush rivets in the belly skin stiffner area that are smoking and 5 rivets in the lap between the belly skin and the one aft (under the spar bulkhead) where the paint has cracked. So far, I have no problems with rivets at the firewall. On the 6-A I'm building now, I think I'll use #4 rivets with the same spacing as the #3's and will dimple on the belly stiffners. Don't know what I'll do on the lap joint under the spar. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
> > > And with a fixed pitch it can actually > > be EASIER in some ways, since you just set the throttle and the prop > > changes pitch as you climb or descend so it won't overspeed. > > ??? Now I'm confused... :-( > > > RV-6T/ fixed pitch. But as I say, my experience is pretty much limited > > to looking/riding at this point. > > Fixed pitch? Did they change it? Or are you talking about the Yellow one? > > Confused, > Jeremy :-) Yeah you're right Jeremy I obviously a fit of dyslexia there or something: I meant the _CS_ can be easier... and yes, the RV-6B (yellow plane) is (was) fixed pitch, RV-6T (red) is CS. I stand corrected. (Man you can't get away with ANYTHING on this list! :-) Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Here is a 'how to certify your homebuilt'
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Here is some info I put together for our EAA Ch 187 based on what I did to certify my RV4 in Dec 95. There have been some questions on this lately so this may help. Herman CERTIFICATION of AMATURE-BUILT AIRCRAFT. Page 1 of 2 Feb, 1, 1996 Herman Dierks Reference: FAA Advisory Circular 20-27D 6/22/90 (may not be latest). This document was a little confusing. Below is my 'flow chart' of what needs to be done. 1) RESERVE N-NUMBER 60 to 90 days before completion. Send $10.00 and a list of 5 possible N-numbers to FAA Aircraft Registry, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, OK 73125 (see example form attached below curtisy of Gil Alexander, which is simpler than that published in 20-27D but they don't need to know what the model of the plane, etc is at this point as you can put the number on what ever plane you choose when you register it. You can call 405-954-3116 to see if a number is available. You can look up N-numbers on the Web of Registered (not reserved) N-numbers at http://acro.harvard.edu/GA/search_nnr.html You can also get there via the IAC home page: Go to http://acro.harvard.edu/IAC/iac_homepg.html and then select 'Other General Aviation related information' and then select 'N-Number lookup'. Note that a N-number is reserved for up to 1 year. They will send you a notice when it is about to expire. You can keep sending in $10.00 a year to hold it until you are ready for step 2. 2) FAA will send back a confirmation of what N number is reserved and will also send you a copy of: Form 8050-88, Affidavit of Ownership for Amateur-Built Aircraft. Form 8050-1, Aircraft Registration Appication Fill out 8050-88 and have it Notarized. Fill out 8050-1 and send the two forms and $5.00 to the address on form 8050-1. You keep the 'pink' copy and this is the 'Registration' form that can be used in the aircraft for 90 days. You may also want to send a copy of the Kit Bill of Sale or authority to build the kit. This should be done a few weeks before the aircraft is ready to fly. 3) The FAA will send you back form 8050-3 which is your official 'Certificate of Aircraft Registration' which you put in the aircraft (to replace the pink copy). Check it for errors and notify FAA at 405-954-3116 if any errors are found. 4) Radio Station License. At the same time you do step 2, you should apply for the radio license. Obtain a current 'FCC 404' form from your local avionics shop. Get their help on how to fill it out. For example, you need to put 'PAAR' in box 8 but this is only defined in a special book which you don't have. Send this form to the FCC along with $75.00 ( the current fee for this 'non-service' or tax which may be repealed). 5) Other requirements before the FAA signoff. 1) N-number on plane. 3 inches high or 12 inches if Cruse > 180K. 2) EXPERIMENTAL 2 inch high sticker. 3) 'Passenger Warning' placard (except single place). 4) Fireproof 'Data Plate' (builders name is the manufacture). 5) Logbooks for airframe and engine. 6) Placard and operating limitations. (check-lists?). 7) Weight and Balance Page 2 of 2 6) 'FAA' inspection The FAA can inspect the plane (for free) or you can use a DAR which is a private individual approved by the FAA. Our local DAR is Richard Dumler 512-441-0629. The DAR will charge a fee, about $225.00 for the service. Why us a DAR? He is local and will probably come out when you want him to (the FAA shows up when they want to). Dick will show up when he says he will. He will come out twice. He will give you the test area you want, within reason. The DAR provided the following forms and will help you fill it out or you can get them from the GADO and have them filled out before the inspector shows up. Know what flight test area you want. Form 8130-6, Application for Airworthiness Certificate Form 8610-2, Airman Certificate &/or Rating Application (this is for your 'repairman' certificate). These forms will be filled out and signed by both of you and the DAR will send them in to the FAA. He will also want copies of your Weight & Balance form and copies of several pages of your log books and copies of of the N-number and Registration forms from above. 7) The Inspector (DAR) will give you the signed Airworthiness Cert. He will also give you two other forms. 8130-1, Experimental Operating Limitations (Phase 1 for the flight test period). 8130-1, Same form, but this one is Phase 2 which begins after the flight test period is signed off by the builder. These are part of the 'Operating Limitations' and go in the aircraft. You now have all the 'ARROW' documents! Other Notes: Have project inspected 3 times by EAA 'Technical Counselor' and receive a 10% discount on insurance from Avemco/National. ( I deleted names of our CH 187 TC's here). Work with an EAA 'Flight Advisor' and complete the associated paperwork and the first 10 hours will also be covered by above insurance company (otherwise it is excluded). (I deleted names of our CH 187 FA's here) Form letter to reserve N number: RESERVATION OF AN "N" NUMBER I wish to reserve a Registration Number to be used at a later date. The fee to reserve a Registration Number is $10 per year. My choices are: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Signature: ____________________________ Name: _________________________________ Address: ______________________________ _______________________________________ _______________________________________ Phone: ________________________________ Mail request and Fee to: FAA Aircraft Registry PO Box 25504 Oklahoma City, OK 73125 Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bill Downey <billd(at)ibmoto.com>
> >I'm just getting started with the building of an RV6. This is the tool > >procurement stage. I will order the empanage in April. Will I need a > >band saw? Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? > >What items will need to be cut? I told you I was just starting. It's > >hard to read the small size drawings in the review package. > > > > > flawlessly. I looked at the smaller bench-top Delta and Sears, along with > the free-standing Sears. The bench-top units break blades very easy, other > RV builders in my chapter confirmed this. Also, these small units just > didn't seem to have the umph needed to cut large amounts of aluminum. Smaller bandsaws do go through blades more quickly. The reason is the blades are made thinner to handle the tighter radiuses of the smaller wheels. However just about any bandsaw that will cut wood, will cut aluminum. The speed for cutting wood works fine with aluminum. Just use a blade 3tpi hook toothed blade when cutting thicker pieces. The courser blade will not gum up quickly, like a fine toothed metal blade and will cut the soft aluminum just fine. I also believe in buying the best tool you can afford. But I plan on using my tools for many other projects after finishing and while working on my airplane. | Bill Downey International Business Machines | | billd(at)ibmoto.com SOMERSET Design Center | ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Trailing Edge Bend
>Hello All, > I'm working on my rudder at this time and having just riveted the >stiffeners to the rudder skin I attempted to make the trailing edge bend. I >used the wooden bending brake as suggested by the manual but I'm not happy >with the results. I was able to make a bend, but the skin is not in the >final shape that I feel it needs to be, ie it is nowhere close to being near >the rudder spar. I bent the skin enough to contact the opposite side, but it >has alot of "springback". I even put the skin in the rudder jig and there is >so much resistance to being forced into the jig shape that there is a bow in >between the jig supports. > I know there has to be a better way. Can I use my hand seamer? That should >work but I doubt I could be consitent with the bend along the edge. It would >be nice to figure this out as I'll need to do a bunch more times before it's >all done! > Thanks in advance for any and all help. > > Larry RV-6 23782 > > > The "brake" I used was borrowed and consisted of 2 --2"X8" douglas fir held together with three door hindges. I placed a small dowel inside the skin to prevent overbending. I placed the brake on the floor and held the skin while I litterally jumped on the brake. I had to move the skin so that only the trailing edge was in the brake to get the final bend. I was surprised at how much pressure I needed to apply. I think I had my wife come out and stand on the brake also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
>I'm just getting started with the building of an RV6. This is the tool >procurement stage. I will order the empanage in April. Will I need a >band saw? Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? >What items will need to be cut? I told you I was just starting. It's >hard to read the small size drawings in the review package. > >Thanks in advance. This listing is very helpful. I liked the comments >about conventional aircraft pilots. I currently own & fly a >Luscombe 8A. I can't wait to get behind an RV6. > >Gary Tree > I bought one from Freight Harbor which has a 12" throat that works just fine. If you can scan the arcives, there has been EXHAUSTIVE discussion on tools. If you can get the serach engine up an running on the archive, I'm sure this will help. I am still trying to download and unzip the files. I am getting a mesage that I need to run pkzipfix on the file. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
> Will I need a band saw? IMHO, YES! I'd probably even give up my "favorite tool" (pneumatic squeezer) before I'd give up my band saw. > Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? That's kind of minimal but should handle most of what you do with it. I had the sears 10" variable speed, it was pretty cheezy and lightweight, I took it back when it stopped working right (within the first year) and got a delta tabletop 12". MUCH better. > What items will need to be cut? Not a lot on the empennage -- the notch in the VS bar, notching and tapering the HS forward spar angles. Still its easier than using a hacksaw or table saw. The wings, you use it to cut the spreader angles, make the fuel tank reinforcement plates and forward wing attach angle, taper the rear spar flange strips, trim various doubler plates, etc. (some of that stuff is already done for you "new builder" types :-). Some people use a bandsaw to taper the spar flange strips although your Sears 1/3hp probably wouldn't be up to that (I used a table saw). The fuselage -- all KINDS of stuff. Lots of 1/8" and 1/4" angle to cut, notch, etc. I got away without a bandsaw on my tail, was glad to have it on the wings, and REALLY wouldn't want to be without it on the fuselage. > Thanks in advance. This listing is very helpful. I liked the comments > about conventional aircraft pilots. I currently own & fly a > Luscombe 8A. I can't wait to get behind an RV6. My man! Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: baggage ribs revisited
Thanks to everyone who responded to my original question regarding oversize baggage floor ribs. Your help and comments are greatly appreciated. I did verify that the ribs were installed in the proper sequence, and that they were numbered properly - ie; the tallest rib is the centermost (at the F606). It was also verified that the F625 (furthest outboard) rib is 3/16 taller at the -606 than the print calls for, and this is what is causing the misalignment of the baggage floor. For reference, my fuselage kit was delivered in June '95. Since some of you indicated that you had no problems in kits that were shipped both before and after mine, it appears that the problem comes and goes. I intend to remove the offending flange and rivet on a replacement made from a piece of .025 scrap (scrap? what's scrap? :-) ) as some of you suggested. Thanks again for the help. Bruce Stobbe RV-6 fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Wing Skins
>>Any of you guys back drill the wing skins? If you did, did you do the whole >>thing, or just the top and bottom hole of each rib then line the holes up, >>measure, and drill the skins? >> >>Thanks >>Howard Kidwell >>howardrv(at)aol.com >> >Howard: I believe that you'll get a "truer" hole by not back drilling. I >would suggest marking rib locations on the skin and then pilot drilling >skins, off the wing, with a smaller than # 41 drill bit. (Where can you buy >smaller diameter, split point bits?) Then, put the wing skin back on and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A.T.S. --- their tools may be bad, but I've found them to be a good supplier of drill bits. All sizes I've wanted have been in stock, and they sell the prefered 118 degree split point bits for alum. sheet. ... Gil Alexander >drill #42 through the pilot holes. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
> What say we compile a database on aircraft showing sighs of loose rivets > including: hours, model (4,6,6A), engine, prop, aerobatics or no, field > environment(rough, pavement, etc.), landing incident history, landing > technique, what else? I assume Van's could use this data, along with some > structural analysis, to guide them to an official fix and drawing change. I > will volunteer to start a spread sheet and keep track if you all think it's > a good idea. > > Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, > H 519.746.9882, B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com > > RV6, started fuselage. Great idea Peter! My plane, alas, isn't finished yet. But you should contact Don Wentz (don_wentz(at)ccm.hf.intel.com -- he's not on the rv-list) -- he went through this with less than 100 hours on his 180hp fixed pitch RV-6. Also I think Tom Green at Vans (RV-6) (72640.3005(at)compuserve.com). Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Backriveting tool
> > Some of you said that your Avery backrivet tool was not bent correctly. I > measured mine at 4 degrees and then tried it for the first time. Sure enough it > was too shallow and my rivets slanted toward the rib web. If I heat this thing > up and bang it 2 more degrees will it be correct for all the angles it is > required to rivet. ie. both around the ribs and under the main spar? > > Are there any better ways to solve the angle problem? I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but I had much better luck using an offset mushroom set to backrivet the wing skins. I tried the Avery thing and didn't like it (first thing of Avery's I HAVEN't liked though....). As long as you "over-angle" it to compensate for the offset, they come out really nice, even when I could only get the edge of the set on the rivet. "Home Wing" members take note -- I got mine for $5 at Wacky Willy's Westside. Probably Seattle types could find one at Boeing Surplus. Everyone else -- AC Spruce. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Backriveting tool -Reply
IT's the only way I know. Mine is now at about 6 degrees and it works fine on the spar and down at the trailing edge of the rib is the most highest angle. >>> mike casmey <102023.1363(at)compuserve.com> 02/01/96 09:18am >>> Some of you said that your Avery backrivet tool was not bent correctly. I measured mine at 4 degrees and then tried it for the first time. Sure enough it was too shallow and my rivets slanted toward the rib web. If I heat this thing up and bang it 2 more degrees will it be correct for all the angles it is required to rivet. ie. both around the ribs and under the main spar? Are there any better ways to solve the angle problem? Thanks Mike Casmey RV-4 Mpls,MN ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
You wrote: > >I'm just getting started with the building of an RV6. This is the tool >procurement stage. I will order the empanage in April. Will I need a >band saw? Will a Sears & Roebuck 1/3 HP 10" Constant speed do the job? >What items will need to be cut? I told you I was just starting. It's >hard to read the small size drawings in the review package. > >Thanks in advance. This listing is very helpful. I liked the comments >about conventional aircraft pilots. I currently own & fly a >Luscombe 8A. I can't wait to get behind an RV6. > >Gary Tree > Gary, I have an inexpensive Home Depot bandsaw much like the one you describe. I use it with a wood cutting blade and have had no problems cutting material for the empennage. I can't speak for the rest of the project as I'm completeing the empennage myself. It's always nice to have the biggest and best equipment available, but you can get by fine with the Sears model. Some builders have opted for the variable spped model. AMT (Woodworking tools) has on sale a nice floor model drill press for $199 in their last catalog. I believe it is 16 speed. Buy the hand tools from Avery's and get started!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: Search Engine Instructions
You wrote: > >I have posted instructions in word perfect (yea, right) format for those of you >who requested it. The file is wpinstr.zip on ftp.intellinet.com >pub/users/bfgibbons/rvsource. The rvsearch.zip file now only >contains the exe. wordinst.zip is the word file. > Bob, I downloaded your program and got it up and running. You are to be commended for an excellent piece of work. It is now a pleasure searching through 5 years of email. Ed Cole RV6 24430 ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: av8r(at)hic.net
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Search Engine Instructions
Downloaded the search engine last night....Yessir it be fine!!!! I'm always envious of those with the skills to make the pixels do what they are told ....Thanks for a great new tool BF! Rob Lee ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Carolynn E Hiatt <hiatt001(at)gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Tailwheels are easy
I agree with you about taildraggers. I learned to fly in a T-6. Talk about a high pucker factor, try landing those things in a crosswind -- about a 15 on the 1-10 scale. Everybody be safe and don't do nothing dumb. Fred On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 one.net!rust47rg(at)matronics.com wrote: > >> > >> > >>On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Randall Henderson wrote: > >> > >>> SHHHHH! Dammit, you want EVERYONE to know???? There goes my "taildragger > >>> pilot mystique!" > >> > >>(Chuckle) I'm drooling with anticipation of the day I can taxi up to a > >>bunch of my nosedragger friends, cut the mixture while booting the left > >>rudder to unlock the full-swivel tailwheel, coast to a top at the end of > >>90 degrees rotation, and slide the canopy back. > >> > >>Ah, yes! > >> > >>Best Regards, > >>Dave Barnhart > >>rv-6 sn 23744 > > > > SNIP> > >Ah yes, the mystique of the 'Taildragger'; never let anyone attempt to > >discredit the skills and abilities needed to master the secrets of the dance > >of the two feet. Nose dragger pilots, and I use the term 'pilots' > >generously, will never appreciate what they have not experienced. > > > >John Ammeter > >ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com > >Seattle WA, USA > >RV-6 N16JA > >Flying 5 years > > > Chuckle, Chuckle, ..... I'm sorry, but you have to permit those of us that have > a "few" more hours with the little wheel in the back to sit back and smile. > Yea we all learned and you can too. But time will teach you something else > about a ship with a wheel on the tail. RESPECT. > > I don't have a billion hours in a coventional (yea tailwheeled birds are > conventional) aircraft, but I've flown a bunch of different ones and they > vary all over the board in "pucker factor". > > Here's my sampler...The RV is (IMHO) a 3 on a 1 to 10 (10 being the > toughest ) The champ is a 4, citabria & decathlon a 5, skybolt with 540 a > 7, luscombe an 8, Pitts a 9, and a Beech 18 with the left one out, off the > scale. > > The funny thing is on a given day for no known reason any of the above can > act up and scare hell out of you. There is a a local faa examiner (That > shall go unnamed) that has a billion hours in taildraggers and gives > checkrides in among other things DC-3's that recently lost a champ while > checking out a new guy. Lost it on a take off and it wasn't even windy. Go > figure. > > Any way....just about anybody can learn... and I keep learning. > > But I still have to smile. > > Regards: > Rusty Gossard > N47RG RV-4 Flying > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: RV Building 101
You old hands are probably laughing your heads off at the frequency and the mundanicity* of my questions...I'm making steady progress on the HS, and now I have three more questions; 1) When bending the ends of the HS-610, I managed to get one right on the money (6 degree angle), and one I over bent by about a 1/16" of an inch, measured at the the tip of the '610. George and Becki talk about "aluminum not taking kindly to be being bent back", but I couldn't resist the temptation to have the bends at the two ends match, each at 6 degrees, so I brought it back the 1/16". Does this make the part a throwaway? I'm guessing a failure of 610 would make for a spectacular conclusion to my flying career. 2) I've looked and looked, and I can't seem to find the size of the lightening holes in the HS-405. While I think it's probably obvious (just cut out the flat part), I'm wondering what anybody else has used as a size. 3) The measurement from the HS-603 to the HS-602 at the centreline...that's 12 3/16 to the back of the HS-602, or the back of the 610 and the 614? My drawing looks like it was copied one too many times and I can't quite make it out. I know the difference is only the thickness of the 602, but y'know, ya wanna get it right, doncha... That's it for now. Hope everybody is having as much fun as me!! Cheers... Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Horizontal Stabilizer" *That's a made up word...defined as "of a mundane nature" PS. My final decision on priming...mild solution of Alumiprep, and then go directly to Endura etching primer. I'm going to skip the Alodining...that "known carcinogen" stuff on the label just scared the bejeesus out of me...I had visions of having a Grand Champion RV-6 with a carcinoma to match... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Ron Caldwell <74504.1365(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: New Builder
Just to introduce myself, My name is Ron Caldwell and I just ordered a RV6A. I'm told that I will be one of the first to receive the new prepunched empennage kits. I have my jig built , so I'm anxiously awaiting the kit to arrive. I live in Salt Lake City and belong to our local EAA chapter. I also own a piper cherokee so at least I won't be without wings while I'm building the RV. I'm very excited to embark on this journey and look forward to conversing with everyone. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
The wings, you use it to cut the spreader angles, make the fuel tank >reinforcement plates and forward wing attach angle, taper the rear spar >flange strips, trim various doubler plates, etc. (some of that stuff >is already done for you "new builder" types :-). Some people use a >bandsaw to taper the spar flange strips although your Sears 1/3hp >probably wouldn't be up to that (I used a table saw). > I tapered all of my spar flange strips on a cheap 3 wheel band saw with the approriate cutting fluid. It had an old blade in it and made it through all of the strips. The cutting fluid makes a lot of difference IMO. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
Smaller bandsaws do go through blades more quickly. The reason is the >blades are made thinner to handle the tighter radiuses of the smaller >wheels. However just about any bandsaw that will cut wood, will cut >aluminum. The speed for cutting wood works fine with aluminum. Just >use a blade 3tpi hook toothed blade when cutting thicker pieces. The >courser blade will not gum up quickly, like a fine toothed metal blade >and will cut the soft aluminum just fine. > I also believe in buying the best tool you can afford. But I plan on >using my tools for many other projects after finishing and while >working on my airplane. > > >| Bill Downey International Business Machines | >| billd(at)ibmoto.com SOMERSET Design Center | > > >I've got a cheap 3 wheel band saw and use a blade with 14 tpi. I've found that laying a bead of LPS cutting fluid down the cut line extends blade life considerably. Be sure to use a cutting fluid that indicates that it can be used for aluminum. Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Wing skins (again)
On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? Thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen )
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
I think the idea of such a database is great. (Looking through the rv-list archive I noticed someone at one point had downloaded incident data from the NSTB (?) BBS on RVs.) Building an RV-3, I'm definitely concerned about this area, as there were several reports about this area (wing/fuselage attachment). Modifications were designed for that area, which I do intend to implement (Van's CN-1) > "Smoking rivets" are rivets that have loosened up in service and >vibrated in their hole to the point where a trail of aluminum dust, >resembling smoke, has deposited on the skin downstream. The ominous >connotation is rightly diserved as, to me, it indicates a serious deficiency >in structural integrity in the spar to firewall area. All the stresses of >the wing carrying the heavy engine around pass through here, as well as the >(perhaps much greater) stresses in the opposite direction of the weight of >the aircraft, passengers and fuel during a hard landing. This is occurring >at alarmingly low hours on an airframe we expect to last many thousands of >hours. > What say we compile a database on aircraft showing sighs of loose rivets >including: hours, model (4,6,6A), engine, prop, aerobatics or no, field >environment(rough, pavement, etc.), landing incident history, landing >technique, what else? I assume Van's could use this data, along with some >structural analysis, to guide them to an official fix and drawing change. I >will volunteer to start a spread sheet and keep track if you all think it's >a good idea. > >Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, >H 519.746.9882, B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com > >RV6, started fuselage. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Trailing Edge Bend
You wrote: > >>Hello All, >> I'm working on my rudder at this time and having just riveted the >>stiffeners to the rudder skin I attempted to make the trailing edge >>bend. I used the wooden bending brake as suggested by the manual but >>I'm not happy with the results. >> Larry RV-6 23782 >> Larry, I used a 2 X 8 cedar board cut very carefully at a mill so the faces were very smooth and parallel. I used a 1/8" dowel (steel) and used long (about 3 ft) pipes with pipe clamps so I could get a LOT of leverage when bending down. Mostly followed the Orndorff suggestion on the tape for positioning of the trailing edge. Mine seemed to work fine. I had a big discussion with another builder whether the dowel should be 1/8" or 3/16" and neither one of us changed our opinion, but I think my 1/8 worked fine. Hope this helps. Bill Costello -- ___ _______________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \______________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: James Kelley <72466.1355(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Band Saw Size
Hi Gary, I'm using the el-cheep-o $99.00 variable speed bandsaw with 62" blade and 12" throat from Harbor Freight. So far it has done a good job. I think it cuts kinda slow, at least compared to the more expensive two wheel ones I have used in the past, but the result is the same. If I had the extra money, like I have extra time, I would have a better saw. In conversations with cabinet makers and machinist, they told me that any three wheel saw will break the blades more often (bend radus of the blade). Where blades are concerned: I have used an 18 tpi and a 6 tpi blade, both worked just fine. I had a better result with the 18 tpi because it cut slower and the control was better because of this. In most cases I would tend to agree with the statement: NEVER BUY CHEEP TOOLS! But, with certian tools I feels you can get away with cheeper ones. I think this happens to be the case here. My #1 rule: I always cut on the outside of the line and file or sand to the correct size, just like I would do with any saw. This allows me not to be so accurate with the cut and just remove the bulk of the material. I have seen excellent workmanship with cheep tools and bad workmanship with expensive tools. One very true statement is: NEVER BUY CHEEP HAND TOOLS THAT ARE GOING TO BE USED OVER AND OVER. (like squeezers, flange tool, de-burring tools, etc.) So far Avery has the best hand tools I have found! James Kelley (Working on main spars.) 72466.1355(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: James Kelley <72466.1355(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: IMHO?
O.K. I don't feel so bad about asking this after the "what are smoking rivets?" question. What does IMHO mean? James Kelley 72466.1355(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan)
Subject: Pre-punched Wing Skins Tip
I am in the process of drilling the pre-punched wing skins to the wing rips and spar. Van's instructions suggest several methods. One of them which I followed was to drill and cleco the 2 main-skin-tops then teh 2 main-skin-bottoms first and then fit and drill the leading-edge-skin last. The rationale was that by doing the main-skins first, the wing assembly became very strong and this helped pull the leading edge skin into position with straps without distorting the wing. I have found that when the leading-edge-skin is pulled down with straps, the trailing edge overlaps the main-skins. The instructions say that this is intented and the leading edge skins are ".040 to .050 oversize and just trim them to fit." If I trim (shorten) both the lower surface of the leading-edge-skin and the bottom-main-skin at the butt joint in order to remove enough to get a good fit, I will have edge distances for the prepunched holes of less than 2 diameters on both the leading-edge-skin and the main-skin at the bottom butt joint . The solution appears to be trim both top and bottom skins/edges for both the leading-edge-skin edges and the main-skin edges. This is not easy to do and very time consuming. I would now rather have: (1.) Drilled and clecoed the top-main-skins to create a very rigided wing assembly. This could also include the inboard-lower-main-skin. (2.) Drilled and cleoed the leading-edge-skin with a nice tight butt joint with the top-outboard-main-skin. 3. Finally butting, drilling and clecoing the outboard-lower-main-skin to the leading-edge-skin. Another solution would be if the prepunched skins did not have the bottom trailing edge line of holes prepunched. Then this edge could be trimmed to fit and then drilled to the spar flange maintaining proper hole edge distance. This is an easy line of holes to mark and drill. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366 Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132 Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906 Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "E. Amadio" <e_amadio(at)vaxxine.com>
Subject: Band Saw Size
Date: Feb 01, 1996
------ =_NextPart_000_01BAF0EC.454667A0 Hey gang, there are two key factors involved in using a band saw = successfully. The first and most important is getting the correct blade pitch. It = is realy quite simple, there must be at least two teeth in contact with = the metal at all times, more,of course is better. Simply divide the = metal thickness in thousndths into 1.000 and round up to the nearest = whole number, for the minimum number of teeth/inch. The second of course is blade speed. Most people think that a band = saw should scream as it cuts, not so.Generaly when cutting metal , the = higher the noise pitch the shorter the life of the cutting tool and the = rougher the cut, noise is vibration, and the higer the frequency the = more energy the tool must absorb.Slowing the saw down will give you a = better cut and more control, within reason. A somewhat messy, but very effective coolant for cutting aluminum = is varsol. Inexpensive. In general, buy the best tools you can afford and never part with = them except to replace with a better quality tool later.=20 I hope this has been of some help, Ernie Amadio ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com>
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
> >> What say we compile a database on aircraft showing sighs of loose rivets >>including: hours, model (4,6,6A), engine, prop, aerobatics or no, field >>environment(rough, pavement, etc.), landing incident history, landing >>technique, what else? I assume Van's could use this data, along with some >>structural analysis, to guide them to an official fix and drawing change. I >>will volunteer to start a spread sheet and keep track if you all think it's >>a good idea. >> >>Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, >>H 519.746.9882, B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com >> >>RV6, started fuselage. >> > >Peter: Good idea. I've got 200 hrs. on my RV-6, 150 hp Lycoming with wood >prop. I've had 4 or 5 landings that were harder than I would've liked to >had and probably 10 landings on sod strips that were fairly rough. I >generally wheel land. The plane has never been used for acrobatics. I have >5 or 6 #3 flush rivets in the belly skin stiffner area that are smoking and >5 rivets in the lap between the belly skin and the one aft (under the spar >bulkhead) where the paint has cracked. So far, I have no problems with >rivets at the firewall. On the 6-A I'm building now, I think I'll use #4 >rivets with the same spacing as the #3's and will dimple on the belly >stiffners. Don't know what I'll do on the lap joint under the spar. Bob >Skinner RV-6 > > Bob: Thanks for information. You are first and I will start an Excel spreadsheet. With luck a pattern will emerge and I can spread the word. As a newcomer to the list I don't know what outcome was of the last go around on this smoking rivet topic - maybe someone could summarize it to get everyone up to speed on what we are concerned about. Is it possible that the cause is engine vibration and oilcaning of the floor pan? Everyone responding: please include whether the floor pan is deadened by stick-on sound attenuating material, supported or in contact with plywood, foam, etc. What color is belly painted? (It might be evident only with some colors) If belly is cleaned, how many hours/landings/etc., before the evidnece reappears? Engine mount type. As well, where exhaust exits. What has been done to correct it? Was it effective? Anything else? How much vibration is evident in flight? Reach down and touch floor (or a passenger) at different rps, during landing, fast taxi up on mains, etc. You can tell I am already flying my 6 vicariously and that I like problem solving. Someone mentioned that it is occurrring on a 6A - that's interesting as it would seem that the landing loads thru the belly area from the mains are in reverse to the 6, that is, in compression on the 6A rather than in tension on the 6. In the 6A the wheels support the A/c weight at the same point as the wing does. In the 6A, however, landing loads from nose wheel on rough ground could be a factor. Do those of you flying 6As hold that nose wheel off as much as possible during TO and landing on rough ground? Bob: What's it like to wheel land the 6? At what speed do you approach and "put" those mains on the runway? Does it tend to bounce? I love doin wheel landings with my tandem T'craft, except when I have someone in the back - then it's hard to avoid a bounce as the tail goes down slightly. (my L2 is solo'ed from the front) Is that a probelem on the 4, anyone? To simplify responding on "smoking rivets" I will put all the questions raised above in a questionaire format and send it out under separate cover to eliminate all this preamble. I will be away from my connection for two weeks so won't be responding to anyone until after Feb 18. Hope there is lots of info waiting for me. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Wing skins (again)
On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, B F Gibbons wrote: > On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. > The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. > > How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds > the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? That inboard piece of .032 skin is pretty stiff once the tank is assembled and screwed to the spar. With a slight bit of preload bent into it, it fits quite snugly against the spar. Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: New Builder
>Just to introduce myself, My name is Ron Caldwell and I just ordered a RV6A. >I'm told that I will be one of the first to receive the new prepunched >empennage >kits. I have my jig built , so I'm anxiously awaiting the kit to arrive. I I was just at the factory on 1/31, and Tom showed me the pre-punched emp skins. Very nice. He said the cutoff date was 2/1. Sure would hate to be the guy that ordered his on 1/31... Good luck with your new project. Mine has been a fascinating, frustrating, exstatic, agonizing 15 months of my life so far. Ed Bundy Installing flap actuator ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: RV Building 101
>1) When bending the ends of the HS-610, I managed to get one right on the >money (6 degree angle), and one I over bent by about a 1/16" of an inch, >measured at the the tip of the '610. George and Becki talk about "aluminum >not taking kindly to be being bent back", but I couldn't resist the >temptation >to have the bends at the two ends match, each at 6 degrees, so I brought it >back the 1/16". Does this make the part a throwaway? I'm guessing a failure Nope. You don't want to bend aluminum anymore than you have to, but small corrections won't hurt anything. >2) I've looked and looked, and I can't seem to find the size of the >lightening >holes in the HS-405. While I think it's probably obvious (just cut out the >flat part), I'm wondering what anybody else has used as a size. I don't remember the exact size, but all the lightening holes that you need to cut yourself are just the flat part. Technically you can take out up to 25% of the ring also, but I wouldn't. >3) The measurement from the HS-603 to the HS-602 at the centreline...that's >12 >3/16 to the back of the HS-602, or the back of the 610 and the 614? My >drawing looks like it was copied one too many times and I can't quite make it > >out. I know the difference is only the thickness of the 602, but y'know, ya >wanna get it right, doncha... Well, they must have revised the dimension since my drawing. Mine shows it at 12 1/8, and the dimension is inside to inside. That must be why they changed it, my HS is 1/16 to long, and overhangs the attach point a bit. Ah, progress. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jperri(at)interserv.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: New Builder
Welcome to the net Ron... JMP ________________________________________________________________________________
From: blea(at)hic.net
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Search Engine Test
Well, I did give the program a whirl. Yes, I did manage to crash it. Over all it's quite impressive. Good speed... the messages have all the stuff... First I'll tell you about the crash. I began searching on accident while stepping through the string I got an error of "Can't Insert a line" I seemed to beable to hop over it but maybe I'm not sure just where I am in the list. Then I searched on blea trying to find my own inane postings about this time everything just stopped and I had to kill the process. Windows didn't die, so it wasn't the dreaded GPF (I never called you Bob... ;-)) I do have a couple of suggestions: 1. There seems to be too much space between the top section of the window and the message text. It is most appartent when the window is zoomed to full extent. In a perfict world I suppose you could make this a sort of splitter window where the division was user variable but I don't know if it's possible with the system you're using. In any case a fixed division is probably ok only I would put it a little higher than you now have it. 2. I was a bit confused by the arrows. At first I thought that the first and last arrow applied to the searched list, but after a time it began to look as if they moved you to the front and back of the whole database. I think you should add a message counter/position indicator of the type "Message 1 of 20" so you could see where you are and know how many messages you have selected. 3. Starting a new search seemed a bit awkward too. I just poked the forward and back arrows at random until it took. I think that a new search should be instigated whenever the edit control has been changed and looses focus or gets a . 4. An option for whole word searching wouold be nice too. When looking for my inane postings blea turned up quite a few split words. Overall It is a very impressive program and I'm sure everyone will enjoy using it. I'll keep at it for a while and if I have any more suggestions or repeatable crash instructions I send em along as I come up with them. Oh, one final thing I think it needs a version number (didn't remember one on the startup screen and didn't check the about box so if it's there ignore this one.) Bill ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: IMHO?
>O.K. I don't feel so bad about asking this after the "what are smoking rivets?" >question. What does IMHO mean? > >James Kelley >72466.1355(at)compuserve.com > > In my humble opinion---as in "IMHO, the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked" Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Wing skins (again)
>On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. >The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. > >How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds >the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? > >Thanks in advance. > B.F.: Your expert metal craftsmanship:) I wondered about that, too. Before the last time the tanks went on, I used a hand seamer to put a slight bend in the skin. You don't want to bend it from the rear baffle, in other words be careful not to bend the skin down at the baffle or you will crease your skin. You kind of use an arching motion to put a slight curve in the skin. You may need to place some thin material (.016 alum) on the spar to help guide the tank skin over the spar. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 01, 1996
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
> The ominous >connotation is rightly diserved as, to me, it indicates a serious deficiency >in structural integrity in the spar to firewall area. All the stresses of >the wing carrying the heavy engine around pass through here, as well as the >(perhaps much greater) stresses in the opposite direction of the weight of >the aircraft, passengers and fuel during a hard landing. This is occurring >at alarmingly low hours on an airframe we expect to last many thousands of >hours. This has been addressed in great detail here on the list and I for one do not think that it is a *serious deficiency in structural integrity* and to say so in my opinion is probably causing a lot of builders to worry needlessly. I have over 700 hrs on my airframe and yes I have some rivets that appears to be lose but that is caused from my own building technique, I think that Van does need to call out for dimple in this area rather than countersink. Jerry Springer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
A>Is it possible that the cause is engine vibration and oilcaning of the floor >pan? Everyone responding: please include whether the floor pan is deadened >by stick-on sound attenuating material, supported or in contact with >plywood, foam, etc. What color is belly painted? (It might be evident only >with some colors) If belly is cleaned, how many hours/landings/etc., before >the evidnece reappears? Engine mount type. As well, where exhaust exits. >What has been done to correct it? Was it effective? Anything else? >How much vibration is evident in flight? Reach down and touch floor (or a >passenger) at different rps, during landing, fast taxi up on mains, etc. You >can tell I am already flying my 6 vicariously and that I like problem solving. > >Bob: What's it like to wheel land the 6? At what speed do you approach and >"put" those mains on the runway? Does it tend to bounce? I love doin wheel >landings with my tandem T'craft, except when I have someone in the back - >then it's hard to avoid a bounce as the tail goes down slightly. (my L2 is >solo'ed from the front) Is that a probelem on the 4, anyone? > Peter: I have only carpet glued to my floorboards. Plane is painted white. I've just had a few stiffner rivets smoking. Looked under airplane yesterday and notice paint cracked around 5-6 rivets in skin overlap area. This occured in the last few hours (est. after 185 hrs.) I usually come over the threshold at 80 when wheel landing and seem to be able to do a better job wheel landing than 3 point. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: Smoking rivets??
> >> What say we compile a database on aircraft showing sighs of loose >rivets >> including: hours, model (4,6,6A), engine, prop, aerobatics or no, field >> environment(rough, pavement, etc.), landing incident history, landing >> technique, what else? I assume Van's could use this data, along with some >> structural analysis, to guide them to an official fix and drawing change. I >> will volunteer to start a spread sheet and keep track if you all think it's >> a good idea. >> >> Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, >> H 519.746.9882, B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com Its a good idea! RV6 Completed 1991 Started smoking rivets @ 200 hours Approx 20 hrs rough fields, 180 hrs pavement Lots of gear shake, ultimately traced to doubler sleeve spot weld failure 180HP CS Rolls only Mostly 3 point landings, some wheel landings Smokers mostly in the forward third of the bottom skin, some in firewall flange Pan was countersunk I have only carpet on the floor, and always noticed a lot of buzzing under my feet, particularly when diving and even on descents with lower power settings. I believe the riveting job to have been first class. I replaced all rivets in the pan with 1/8 inch rivets, countersinking the 040 material, which is allowed but at the limit. I also doubled the number across the front angle. Jim Stugart DerFlieger(at)aol.com Van needs to listen to some of these problems instead of chalking them up to poor builder technique. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Ross Rebgetz <Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au>
Subject: Alodine
What are the active ingredients of alodine. My local paint supplier didn't know the name so it must be called something else here. Thanks in advance Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone: +61 077 538570 W +61 077 753192 H Fax : +61 077 538600 W Email: Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au Mail : CSIRO Davies Laboratory Private Mail Bag Aitkenvale Qld 4814 Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: Engines Weights
Re: An interesting factory airplane comparison is a 180 HP Mooney against a 180 HP Grumman Tiger. The service ceiling of the Mooney is about 4000' higher and it typically climbs about 200' per minute faster. It's also usually about 10 mph faster in cruise than the Tiger particularly at high altitude where the Tiger loses horsepower to the Mooney because its prop can't spin fast enough to allow the engine to produce as much power. Is the performance difference due to the clean aerodynamic, retractable design of the Mooney? Partly yes, but I suspect that the bulk of the performance edge is due to the C/S prop of the Mooney over the fixed pitch prop of the Tiger. Gee, $4-5K for a constant speed prop and who knows how much more for a retract gear (and its higher maintenance requirements and cost); and you get 10 mph and 200 fpm. Outta my way - that money's burnin' a hole in my pocket!!! Seriously, a constant speed vs fixed pitch prop decision can't be based on an apples to oranges comparison as this Mooney to Tiger example. Use a Decathalon 150hp with CS prop and with fixed pitch prop for a better comparison, or some other aircraft with prop choice being the only variable. Next month's topic - why the glass cockpit in my F-15E makes it a better performer than the J-3 Cub... Okay, maybe a bit sarcastic. Mike Kukulski (kukulskim(at)aol.com) RV-4 Fuselage (attaching empennage - planning on a fixed pitch prop, spent all my money on the engine!) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Jim Ayers <102337.2252(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RVator/Ivoprop
I hope everyone has received their RVator by now. I found the two page "centerfold" article on the Ivoprop "Magnum" propeller interesting, but misleading. I could really relate to what was being described, since I went through the same thought processes myself in the initial installation of the Ivoprop. The Magnum propeller comes with very specific installation instructions. It is very important that they be followed completely. What we do to install wood, or metal, propellers is not necessarily going to work the same on the Magnum prop. For example, on my wood prop, I installed the spinner backplate between the prop extension and the wood blade. It just seems natural to install the spinner backplate between the Magnum blades and the rear "crush" plate on the Magnum prop. (The Magnum prop blades are captured between a front and a rear crush plate.) However, the spinner backplate needs to be installed behind the rear crush plate. And, yes, the blades are farther forward in the spinner, which requires longer cutouts for the blades. Also, the aluminum parts provided with the Magnum prop are bare aluminum, not even alclad, and are expected to be used bare. No alodine, iradite, anodize, primer or paint. BTW, did you know that the spinner backplate (bare aluminum) should be left bare for a wood, or metal, prop installation for the area that is sandwiched in the installation (bare faying surface)? I have been providing Ivo with performance information on his "Magnum" propeller for the last two years. (I had the prototype case mount alternator bracket from Pelican Aviation on my Lyc O-290 (Six years without a problem), and have the prototype LOM M332A engine installation in my rv-3. I just do these things that catch my interest. How else would you define a hobby?) I can fly his propeller a little faster on my rv-3 than he can on his Cessna 172. And he has been able to confirm my findings by putting his two bladed ground adjustable prop on a Lyc O-360 powered Glasair to see for himself. I guess I just feel its more important to help identify the problems so they can be resolved. Ivo has a customer with a three blade Magnum prop on his Lyc. O-720 (yes, 720, not 320). It is the four cylinder four cycle engines that break the tape. I usually break the tape in the first half hour of flight. And the latest set of blades haven't broken the tape yet. Jim Ayers LOM RV-3 N47RV (15 pound prop on dry prop flange, 10 ounce governor) (Now if I could just get the vibration level down too were I like it. But a wood prop balanced within FAA specs runs to rough to me.) 102337.2252(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 01, 1996
From: bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan)
Subject: RV emailgroup
Matt, please send the instructions to >From: jp(at)europa.com (John Peaslee) >Subject: RV emailgroup > >Guys ... email me the particulars >for subscribing to the RV email group > > >send it to jp(at)europa.com > >thanks > > - JP - ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366 Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132 Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906 Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: JIM SCHMIDT <JIM.SCHMIDT(at)mail.mei.com>
Subject: Wing skins (again) -Reply
A slight inward bend in that area. >>> B F Gibbons 02/01/96 06:16am >>> On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? Thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: RVator/Ivoprop
Jim, What is the LOM engine? You have referred to it several times and I just thought it was some acronym that I wasn't getting. In your latest posting you refer to it as a prototype. I'd love to know about it. Thanks! Becki Orndorff Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "Terence Gannon" <Terence_Gannon(at)msn.com>
Subject: Alodine
Ross -- at least one of the ingrediants (the main one, I think) is Chromic Acid, I believe...the manufacturer of the product here in Canada is Amchem...you may have more luck with a "coatings" company located near an airport...that's where I found mine. When you find it, read the label carefully...it looks like nasty stuff to me. Best of luck! Cheers... Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Horizontal Stabilizer" ---------- From: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com on behalf of Ross Rebgetz Sent: February 2, 1996 13:53 PM Subject: RV-List: Alodine What are the active ingredients of alodine. My local paint supplier didn't know the name so it must be called something else here. Thanks in advance Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Phone: +61 077 538570 W +61 077 753192 H Fax : +61 077 538600 W Email: Ross.Rebgetz(at)tvl.tcp.csiro.au Mail : CSIRO Davies Laboratory Private Mail Bag Aitkenvale Qld 4814 Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: BF Gibbons' Archive Search
Hi Folks, Don't want to thrash this subject, but I think I owe my comment. I just finished downloading and unzipping everything to use the 'Gibbons' Archive search program and I want to say I think it is fantastic -- bothe the use and efficiency of the program and the fact that BF and Matt Dralle have made this available to us. What this means is that we have all the combined wisdom, experience, and suggestions of all the RV builders on this list over the last 5 years at our fingertips. It will certainly save me a lot of head- scratching time and mistakes. So thanks much, guys, I am sure I am not the only one who greatly appreciates what you have done. And if anyone out there wonders about the value of getting this set up, my strong suggestion is JUST DO IT! Bill Costello -- ___ _______________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \______________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: William French <wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca>
Subject: RV-Search program
Could someone please tell me the FTP address for the RV-Search program by B.F. Gibbons Much thanks in advance. Bill French wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca Decathlon C-GJXT ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-Search program
>-------------- > > Could someone please tell me the FTP address for the RV-Search >program by B.F. Gibbons > > Much thanks in advance. > >Bill French >wfrench(at)freenet.npiec.on.ca >Decathlon C-GJXT > >-------------- Both the Archives and the Search program are now available at: ftp.matronics.com under: /pub/business/matronics Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com>
Subject: Re: IMHO?
>>O.K. I don't feel so bad about asking this after the "what are smoking rivets?" >>question. What does IMHO mean? >> >>James Kelley >>72466.1355(at)compuserve.com >> >> In my humble opinion---as in "IMHO, the only dumb question is the one that >isn't asked" Bob Skinner > > aha....thanks. As a Canadian newcomer to this list and to email/internet in general, I had never run across this acronym. Peter Hanna ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Wing skins (again)
On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, B F Gibbons wrote: > On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. > The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. > > How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds > the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? Give the tank skin in that area a slight bend inward so that its natural tendency is to press on the spar. You should be able to do it so that when the tank is installed, the bend is not noticable. Mine isn't. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Pre-punched Wing Skins Tip
On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Bob Haan wrote: > I am in the process of drilling the pre-punched wing skins to the wing rips > and spar.... I received one of the first wing kits with the pre-punched skins, so things may have changed, but I found the fit of the skins to be pretty good. MY sequence was: 1. draw the 'leading-edge-to-main-skin' mating line on the spar. 2. Fit the main skins (but don't drill them) during skeleton assembly so that you get the ribs exactly lined up with the pre-punched holes. 3. install the Leading edge skin, drawing it down to the mating line. Completely assemble the leading edge (rivet skin to ribs), but just cleco it to the spar, don't rivet it down. 4. Build the fuel tank. Again, because of the pre-punched holes for the back baffle and screws, you can tell exactly how much to draw it down onto the spar. 5. Fit the Top main skins. 6. Fit the bottom main skins. If there is any skin trimming that needs to be done, then you can trim off BOTH the leading edge/tank skin AND the main skin. That way you have to remove only a few thousands from each skin, and can maintain edge distance for the pre-punched holes. BTW, I think it is a good idea to have about 1/32-inch clearance between the tank skin and its adjacent skins. That way if I have to remove the tank later, I'm less apt to damage the paint. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Alodine
On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Ross Rebgetz wrote: > What are the active ingredients of alodine. My local paint supplier didn't > know the name so it must be called something else here. The PPG Part number is DX503 Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: Wing skins (again)
Bend it slightly so it hugs the spar. Dan Boudro On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, B F Gibbons wrote: > On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. > The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. > > How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds > the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? > > Thanks in advance. > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Jigs
For those of you about to get started... I had a lot of trouble with my emp. jig twisting (rebuilt it three times). On the wing jig I took a sheet of 1/2 plywood and ripped it into strips to encase the 4x4 cedar posts. I glued and screwed them on. After three months, no warping, twisting, turning. Worked great. I also saw a fuse jig made entirely out of 3/4 inch plywood laid up into 'home made' 2x4's. Strong and straight. Worked great. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: RVator/Ivoprop
>I have been providing Ivo with performance information on his "Magnum" propeller >for the last two years. (I had the prototype case mount alternator bracket from >Pelican Aviation on my Lyc O-290 (Six years without a problem), and have the >prototype LOM M332A engine installation in my rv-3. I just do these things that >catch my interest. How else would you define a hobby?) I can fly his propeller >a little faster on my rv-3 than he can on his Cessna 172. And he has been able >to confirm my findings by putting his two bladed ground adjustable prop on a Lyc >O-360 powered Glasair to see for himself. > >Jim Ayers >LOM RV-3 N47RV (15 pound prop on dry prop flange, 10 ounce governor) (Now if I >could just get the vibration level down too were I like it. But a wood prop >balanced within FAA specs runs to rough to me.) >102337.2252(at)compuserve.com > >Jim: Would you share the performance data that you've collected on the Ivo Prop over the last 2 years? Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: Pre-punched Wing Skins Tip
>I have found that when the leading-edge-skin is pulled down with straps, >the trailing edge overlaps the main-skins. The instructions say that this >is intented and the leading edge skins are ".040 to .050 oversize and just >trim them to fit." > >If I trim (shorten) both the lower surface of the leading-edge-skin and the >bottom-main-skin at the butt joint in order to remove enough to get a good >fit, I will have edge distances for the prepunched holes of less than 2 >diameters on both the leading-edge-skin and the main-skin at the bottom >butt joint . The solution appears to be trim both top and bottom >skins/edges for both the leading-edge-skin edges and the main-skin edges. >This is not easy to do and very time consuming. Hmmm. That sounds like a pain. I got one of the first Pre-punched wing kits, and this is how I did it: (It won't help you unfortunately, but it may help someone else) I drew the 1" line horizontally all the way across the spar, then pulled the L.E. skin down to it with straps. ( It could have gone a BIT farther, but would have require a LOT of pressure ) After riveting, I did the same with the tank skin. After the tank was installed I merely butted the main skins up to the L.E. skins, and they fit perfectly. All the holes lined up, and I didn't have to trim anything. -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JIMNJAC(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: Explosion Proof Fans
your are right ... pressuized ventilation is the only way to go. there is NO WAY you can suck fumes through a fan without the possibility of an explosion whish could wipe out everything you have..an explosion of paint "dust" is rapid and hot you would not have time to react to save your project. remember everythimg around you may have a fine mist of paint on it including you..and if you really want to hear a great laugh, wait till you try to explain it to your insurance co. not saying that i don't play these games to but, be real careful.... jimnjac (fireman) hillsboro or. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Anyboby have the scoop on Catto Props? Early RV List posting indicate that they have been used on RV's. I jsut noticed a Cozy Mark IV in Kitplanes with a 180HP Lycoming and a three blade Catto prop. Comments? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: RV Building 101
Terry , You are more then likely or with that bend back, the reason is that the bend was not that much to start with. Just check of any sign of cracks ....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: Jigs
Those of you having problems with 4 x 4's, might try nailing two 2 x 4's together, maybe even glueing them, too. We got our wood way ahead of time and kept it near the wood stove to dry out before we build a jig with it. Becki Orndorff >For those of you about to get started... > >I had a lot of trouble with my emp. jig twisting (rebuilt it three >times). On the wing jig I took a sheet of 1/2 plywood and ripped it >into strips to encase the 4x4 cedar posts. I glued and screwed them >on. After three months, no warping, twisting, turning. Worked >great. > >I also saw a fuse jig made entirely out of 3/4 inch plywood laid up >into 'home made' 2x4's. Strong and straight. Worked great. > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: Jigs
>For those of you about to get started... > >I had a lot of trouble with my emp. jig twisting (rebuilt it three >times). On the wing jig I took a sheet of 1/2 plywood and ripped it >into strips to encase the 4x4 cedar posts. I glued and screwed them >on. After three months, no warping, twisting, turning. Worked >great. > >I also saw a fuse jig made entirely out of 3/4 inch plywood laid up >into 'home made' 2x4's. Strong and straight. Worked great. > The fuse jig I am useing was made of 2x8 glue lam. This is commercially produced by gluing plywood veneer together. Very strong. I am the fourth user and it is still straight and true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "Thomas N. Martin" <103212.65(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: smoking rivets
Is it possible that there are stresses built into the airframe when we construct the fuselage. After all when we rivet the fuse together there is no 350lb weight hanging on the end of it. Perhaps it is only natural that the loads sort of reposition themselves in the first few hours. I know that this might be unsightly, but what about repacing some of these loose rivets with small pan head screws and nuts? Tom Martin RV-4 85 hrs no smokers yet! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: av8r(at)hic.net
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: Jigs
>For those of you about to get started... >I had a lot of trouble with my emp. jig twisting (rebuilt it three >times). On the wing jig I took a sheet of 1/2 plywood and ripped it >into strips to encase the 4x4 cedar posts. I glued and screwed them >on. After three months, no warping, twisting, turning. Worked >great. >I also saw a fuse jig made entirely out of 3/4 inch plywood laid up >into 'home made' 2x4's. Strong and straight. Worked great. There seems to be a lot of trouble in this area, I know you can shim etc. to get it right, but I for one was not happy, especially with the 4x4's specified for the wing & emp. jigs. I could only find warped /split/wet lumber at several yards. I would think that the guys in the Pacific North West area probably have no trouble finding good quality lumber, but this is not so in other areas, and certainly here in Texas. I wound up using 2X6" boards, screwing two together at about 8" intervals, in an attempt to minimize any warpage (Glueing them as well would be even better I suppose - but I didn't). For the vertical end posts I faced the "cup" of the grains toward each other, so that any tendency to warp would be countered by the other board. The "crossbar" on the emp. jig I again used 2 2x6, but this time arranged them in a "T" shape (when viewed from the end)for better span support - It worked well for me, and did not appreciably move throughout building. Regards, Rob Lee- presently frozen out of the shop - IN HOUSTON !!!! ________________________________________________________________________________
From: N63tx(at)aol.com
Date: Feb 02, 1996
Subject: Re: IMHO?
In My Humble Opinion ??? ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: gil(at)rassp.hac.com (Gil Alexander)
Subject: Re: Alodine
>What are the active ingredients of alodine. My local paint supplier didn't >know the name so it must be called something else here. Ross, The DuPont product ID is 226S -- and they call it a Metal Conditioner for Aluminium (well, they actually spell it differently ... :^) ) ... good luck ... Gil Alexander Flash: Just found the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), DuPont's _only_ active ingredients in 226S are: Chromic Acid (1%) Water For their acid etch (225S): Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether (14%) Octylphenoxpolyethoxyethanol surfactant ... must be a typing test ... :^) Phoshoric acid (22%) Pottasium flouride Water Both Items should be stored under OSHA Class IIIB .. can anyone elaborate on this? ... hope this answers your questions ... Gil Alexander gil(at)rassp.hac.com > >Thanks in advance >Ross > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Jigs
You wrote: > > Those of you having problems with 4 x 4's, might try nailing two 2 >x 4's >together, maybe even glueing them, too. We got our wood way ahead of >time and kept it near the wood stove to dry out before we build a jig >with it. > Becki Orndorff > >Becki Orndorff >NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services > Hi Becky, How did you keep it from warping while it dried out? Did you clamp it somehow, keep buying more till some of it didn't warp, or just get very lucky? Bill Costello -- ___ _______________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello \ X-*#####*******......./ Chicago / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on emp. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \______________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Phil Arter <arter(at)acd.acd.ucar.edu>
Subject: smoking rivets
My theory is that the smoking rivets in this area are caused by the acoustic noise coming from the exhaust pipes which are only a few inches away. The vibration of the skins loosens the rivets which would otherwise be of adequate size and rivet spacing. Phil Arter arter(at)acd.ucar.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Phil Arter <arter(at)acd.acd.ucar.edu>
Subject: introduction
I guess I should introduce myself, although I am reluctant to do so and clutter up the list. Phil Arter Project Engineer, EOS HIRDLS Program Atmospheric Chemistry Division National Center for Atmospheric Research Boulder, CO BS Aerospace Engineering Commercial Pilot - ASEL Instrument Rating Private Pilot - Glider CFI from 1982-1991 A&P since 1978 IA from 1982-1989 I am waiting patiently for the RV-8 empennage kits to start shipping, sometime around Easter is the latest word, although I'm not holding my breath. I can't help but wonder how Van's will decide who is worthy of getting the first shipments since they decline to take deposits in advance, and don't have a waiting list. Does anybody know what they did in the past, like when the RV-6 came out? FYI - I bought an O-360 A1D out of a '60 Mooney M20A with 391 SMOH, 1441 TT including Bendix mags, new Marvel Schebler carb, Nippon Denso starter, and Woodward governor for $7500. I am now looking for a Hartzell C/S prop. At your service- Phil arter(at)acd.ucar.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Jigs
>>For those of you about to get started... > >>I had a lot of trouble with my emp. jig twisting (rebuilt it three >>times). On the wing jig I took a sheet of 1/2 plywood and ripped it >>into strips to encase the 4x4 cedar posts. I glued and screwed them >>on. After three months, no warping, twisting, turning. Worked >>great. > >>I also saw a fuse jig made entirely out of 3/4 inch plywood laid up >>into 'home made' 2x4's. Strong and straight. Worked great. > >There seems to be a lot of trouble in this area, I know you can shim etc. to get >it right, but I for one was not happy, especially with the 4x4's specified for >the wing & emp. jigs. I could only find warped /split/wet lumber at several >yards. > >I would think that the guys in the Pacific North West area probably have no >trouble finding good quality lumber, but this is not so in other areas, and >certainly here in Texas. > >I wound up using 2X6" boards, screwing two together at about 8" intervals, in an >attempt to minimize any warpage (Glueing them as well would be even better I >suppose - but I didn't). For the vertical end posts I faced the "cup" of the >grains toward each other, so that any tendency to warp would be countered by the >other board. The "crossbar" on the emp. jig I again used 2 2x6, but this time >arranged them in a "T" shape (when viewed from the end)for better span support - >It worked well for me, and did not appreciably move throughout building. > >Regards, > >Rob Lee- presently frozen out of the shop - IN HOUSTON !!!! > Rob: Frozen in Houston? Come on, y'al don't know cold. We had wind chill of -70 in Nebr. It was so cold (how cold was it?) that we couldn't carry on conversations outside. The words just froze & we had to take them inside to thaw out so we could converse. For the crosspiece on the wing jig, I got three reasonably straight 2x4's and glued and screwed them together on a very flay floor. I detected no shifting or warping when building this last HS and VS. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: ROBERT BUSICK <rbusick(at)nmsu.edu>
Subject: Re: RV Drag Reduction
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Peter Hanna wrote: > 6. Any ideas on drag reduction, such as restricting cooling airflow with > cowl vents in cruise, fairings at the wing junction, alternatives to springs > and chain to tail wheel, any "lopresti" type improvements. Get a copy of Kent Paser's book "Speed with Economy." He tells you how he did this with an O-320 Mustang II. The mods he made increased his top speed by 64 MPH without adding any HP. Obvioulsly the Mustang II is a pretty high drag aircraft if he can get a 64 mph improvement. Many of his mods are all ready incorporated in the RV designs. But some great info on cooling drag reduction is explained as well as other airframe drag reduction ideas. Lots of raw data that you can interpet for yourself if you are so inclined. I highly recommend the book to all RV builders who are interested in improving performance of their RV. You can order the book direct from Paser Publications. Check in the classified ads of Sport Aviation. Bob Busick RV-6 rbusick(at)nmsu.edu ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: COROTEC <70743.2727(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: trimming skins
There has been some discussion regarding trimming the wing skins and I wanted to pass along something that works well for me - especially when you only need to trim a small amount from the skin. Since it is difficult to trim or file a perfectly straight line on the skins (well, for me it is!), I used a router with a straight bit. I clamped the skin to a table top using a piece of 1/8 thick foam to keep from scratching it, then clamped a straight-edge the correct distance from the edge to follow with the router base, and carefully ran the router along the edge. Presto, a perfectly straight trimming job. Practice on some scrap first if you are going to try this. There is a little technique involved in maintaining a consistent speed with the router....but it's not too difficult. Hope this helps.... Bruce Stobbe RV-6 fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Wing skins (again) (fwd)
Date: Feb 02, 1996
> Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, B F Gibbons wrote: > > > On the trailing edge of the fuel tank there are two rows of screws. > > The bottom row stops about 12 inches from the wing root. > > > > How does the tank skin stay flush against the spar? What holds > > the trailing couple of inches of the inboard 12 inches of the skin down? > > That inboard piece of .032 skin is pretty stiff once the tank is assembled > and screwed to the spar. With a slight bit of preload bent into it, it fits > quite snugly against the spar. > > Curt Reimer The other thing that will help hold down the tank trailing edge is the wing root fairing. On my RV4, this 12 inch area did not want to lay down properly. I think part of the problem was that Phlogisten did not line up the web's as close as they should have been. Anyway, I saw a plane from San Antonio and he had put number 4 nut plates in this area. You have to be careful, but there is room for about 3 nutplates such that the hole in the tank skins are quite close to the trailing edge. Don't know if this will work on a -6 but I would expect it would. The number 4 screws are small but they hold down this skin nicely. I did this to my plane and it worked OK. Herman -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Explosive Environment
REGARDING Explosive Environment There has been a lot of concern about explosions when painting in confined spaces. Some recommendations have been excellent. However, I still don't think we have been exposed to the magnitude of the problem (or even if there is a problem). Just because we hear about a rare garage explosion still doesn't put it into perspective on how safe or unsafe the practice is. I would like to offer additional information in the hopes that someone (more qualified than I) can put some numbers to the risk or at least explain it clearly so I can make an educated decision on how to proceed. Spontaneous combustion is explicitly not part of this discussion. (partly because it confuses the issue and partly because it is not the problem we are dealing with. Some one else can bring up the oily-rag issue). The single ingredient left out of all past postings is that of "flammability range". As we all know you CANNOT HAVE COMBUSTION unless all conditions support combustion. Generally that means you must have (1) an ignition source, (2) a flammable material, and (3) the presence of oxygen. Taken one at a time: (1) Is there an ignition source? Yes, A static discharge from the gun may build up with time. With low pressure guns this may not be a problem. With high pressure (1,000psi) the high pressure line is wire reinforced and grounded to the sprayer to minimize this risk. And of course, you have potential arcing from anything electrical (fans, compressor, don't forget that hot filament when you break that light bulb!!). (2) Do we have a flammable material? Obviously, (3) Is oxygen present and in what amount? This is the KEY QUESTION, folks. All materials have a very specific range of concentration when they will burn. Outside of that envelope they will NOT IGNITE. A classic example is hydrogen. It has the widest range of flammability of any material (2%-98%). Nothing else comes close. Something we are all familiar with is gasoline. Look at the mix in your a/c. Most of us (who know what that mixture knob does) know that fuel/air mixtures can range about 12:1 to 15:1. On some new cars with that O^2 sensor the electronics may lean up to 18:1. But, bottom line, gas will not burn unless the AIR/FUEL mixture is generally between 6%-10%. That is a pretty narrow range. For gasoline that means you need 15 Lb. of AIR for each 1LB of GAS to get complete combustion. (best power(not economy) is produced about 12:1 or 8% fuel to air). Notice my gasoline numbers are based on the WEIGHT of the constituents not the volume. Other materials will vary, but by how much I don't know. So what? If your enclosed paint booth is introducing a LARGE VOLUME of fresh air then the flammable material will never get close to its flammable concentration level and therefore will be perfectly safe. Some questions are: (1) what are the flammable concentrations for some of our paint materials (2) How do you calculate the fresh air CFM needed for the enclosed space to keep the dilution below explosive levels? I would feel perfectly confortable about painting in a confined space if I knew my environmental controls were adequate and safe. Can any of you Industrial Hygienists (or others) "paint" a better picture. Does anyone know the fresh air flow requirements for commercial paint booths? How do we scale that down to size for a smaller booth? I know my gun CFM but is that even important? Is the expansion rate of the molecules more important? Is this subject too exhausting, too boring or too dangerous to explore on this list? Sorry for the diatribe - I am building my shop now and am very concerned. I loved some of the great ideas presented. That screen table over the vent idea - beautiful!. Elon, ormsby1(at)llnl.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Alodine (fwd)
Date: Feb 02, 1996
> > Flash: Just found the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), > > DuPont's _only_ active ingredients in 226S are: > > Chromic Acid (1%) > Water > FYI, a local A&P/IA said they bought alodine in powder form and mixed it with water. I suspect they just bought Chromic acid (powder) and mixed it with water. He also said you could mix it a little stronger and reduce the dwell time. Like a lot of things we buy, the acid etich (phosphoric acid) and alodine (chromic acid) are probably a rip-off for the price we pay. Herman Dierks mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Feb 02, 1996
From: "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM>
Subject: Re: Jigs
> I would think that the guys in the Pacific North West area probably > have no trouble finding good quality lumber, but this is not so in > other areas, and certainly here in Texas.


January 25, 1996 - February 02, 1996

RV-Archive.digest.vol-ba