RV-Archive.digest.vol-be

March 06, 1996 - March 13, 1996



      -- 
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      frankv(at)pec.co.nz      | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass;
      Frank van der Hulst   |  Libraries are just genteel versions 
      Software Engineer     |  of Black Holes"
      PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax)  |   Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!"
      ------------------------------------------------------------
      
________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
I suppose a person might be able to get by without a squeezer, but I sure wouldn't want to. You'd have to be better than I am with the rivet gun to buck the small rivets on the thin edges of control surfaces and such without at least some unsightly skin deformation (although I admit, I haven't actually TRIED it). And dimpling all those holes in the wing rib flanges with a gun? Yuk. How about dimpling close to the trailing edges of control surfaces -- you could do it if you had a thin bucking bar with a female dimple machined into it I suppose. Right now I'm riveting my fuselage skeleton together, and I'm doing most of it with the squeezer so I don't risk knocking it out of alignment on the jig. And quite frankly, squeezing is EASIER most places where you can do it that way. If I were to try to do everything with a gun/bucking bar I'm sure I'd end up having to buy enough specialized bucking bars, rivet/dimple sets, and extra parts to more than make up for the cost of a squeezer. Not to mention the time. Trust me, you want a squeezer. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
You wrote: > >Eric, >I think you can get along without a squeezer just fine if you are trying to >save a buck. I am building a -4 on the cheap and I save ALOT of money >making my own tools, including a dimple machine that has a jack type handle >on it so you do not have to beat on it. If you got the money there are alot >of nice tools out there but if you have the time you can make your own tools >that do just as good of job and you can use a little imagination in the >process. (I built my dimple machine for $25) > >Dan Shades RV-4 wing> >> >> >> >> >>Hey Guys, >> >>I'm kind of a newbie at all of this, I'm finishing my @#$%# elevator trim >>tab, again. I'm trying to do this on the cheap if that at all exists in the >>homebuilt world. I feel pretty comfortable with the rivet gun and am >>wondering why I want a rivet squeezer in the first place. Does this do some >>things that a 3x gun will not? Are there places that I can't use a gun/bar >>but can use the squeezer? >> >>I hear some of the big boys in the chapter talking with a gleam in their eye >>about their Avery squeezers and I just figure I have not run into the right >>assembly that will make me long for squeezer ownership. Besides, the wife >>was just saying that there has not been a single tool delivered to the front >>door in almost a month and I would'nt want the UPS guy to forget where I >>live. So could someone shed a little light my way as to why they use a >>squeezer instead of a gun. >> >>Eric Henson >>A wing by spring! >> >> >> >>>Whether you get a pneumatic or hand squeezer, you're probably going to >>>end up wanting more than one yoke. The larger deeper throat is handy >>>for a lot of stuff but for getting into tight spots, you'll need a >>>shallow one because those have smaller "noses" and can get in tighter. >> >>>Yes I recommend the Avery if you get a hand squeezer. I have a Tatco >>>with 2 yokes that are useless on my Pneumatic which I eventually broke >>>down and bought. The deeper Avery yokes also don't have as much problem >>>with bending rivets since they're much beefier than the tatco yokes so >>>they don't flex as much. >> >>>I've found it's nice to have more than one squeezer since it saves >>>having to change dies (and yokes!) so much. >> >> My feeling is that if you are going to sink $35,000 to $50,000 building this airplane, $1500 isn't a large part(3-4%) of the total cost to buy good quality tools. I don't think anything on this project is cheap. You have to weigh time saved vs. dollars saved. But as Dennis Miller says "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" Ed Cole RV6A N648RV ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Ronald Vandervort <rvanderv(at)linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us>
Subject: Minneapolis RV forum
Say again....! When, where and what time..? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Eric , It is always better to squeez then buck, and yes you are going to run into places you do not want to try to buck rivets. The squeezer from Avery is the top of the line .Keep up the good work ....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frankv(at)pec.co.nz
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
In <9603061922.AA21733(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov>, on 03/06/96 at 02:22 PM, "Gene Gottschalk (286-0708)" said: >for the easy way out. I picked up a pneumatic squeezer at S&F last >year and am now wondering what level of insanity caused me to wait >that long. The squeezer seems faster than the gun and the pneumatic >squeezer is another level of magnitude faster (not really, but seems >that way). I think you get consistently better rivet set as well. I'm thinking about what tools to buy. Is a pneumatic squeezer a replacement for a rivet gun, a replacement for a hand squeezer, or in addition to both? -- ------------------------------------------------------------ frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; Frank van der Hulst | Libraries are just genteel versions Software Engineer | of Black Holes" PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax) | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!" ------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JAllen6526(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack (was Wiring in wings)
>But... what about >this hypotetical safety issue. I found a working Whelen single source power pack for $10.00 at an estate sale, which sort of commited me to this type of installation. In my case, I feel I will address the problem by running the high voltage behind the spar (vs. under the fuel tank baffle), enclosing it in a sealed conduit, and using shielded cable. One thing I do intend to do is install my power pack in the outboard wingtip. I am concerned about RF with it mounted in the cockpit, and think that the high pitched noise emitted by these things is distracting. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: rbusick(at)nmsu.edu (Robert Busick)
Subject: Re: Harmon speed thing...
As a trained aeronautical engineer from a long time ago, I must agree with the below analysis. I really have to wonder how the Rocket handles the flutter problem. Without any modifications to the control surfaces, I would be real worried about the structural integrity of the aircraft! And as I have said before, once you exceed the 180 MPH barrier, things really start to happen and change. Things that may not be present below 180 MPH. Structural forces, and vibration of all types, that before were minor design considerations, now become major design considerations. Interesting comparison can be had when studing about the development of the P-38 Lightning. Flutter almost put an end to the airplane before many production aircraft were built. Note that the Vne, gross weights and G loads are design limits. The aircraft is designed to fail at some point after those limits are exceeded. Test pilots are trained to determine those limits. So again I ask what does Vne really mean? It seems to mean different things to different people! Bob Busick RV-6 > >The RV-4 manual lists a gross weight of 1500 pounds. It also describes >the airplane as a plus or minus 6-G aircraft, with the standard 1.5 >safety factor yielding a 9-G ultimate design load. The manual states, in >underlines, "G-limits of over 6 should never intentionally be applied to >an RV-4 structure." Incidently, this 6-G limit is intended for an RV-4 at >aerobatic gross weight, which is 1375 pounds. Redline is listed as 210 >mph, and flutter testing has been completed to 230 mph. I'll assume the >RV-6 numbers are similar, if not exactly the same. > >The Harmon Rocket II was described in the February 1993 SPORT AVIATION as >having RV-6 wings, modified by reducing each wing center section by 6.5" >in span, resulting in 13" less total wingspan. No other wing mod is >mentioned. The gross weight is listed as 1781 pounds. Redline is listed >as 275 mph, and the article describes the aircraft as capable of plus or >minus 9-G ultimate load. > >So, in summary, 281 pounds heavier at gross and the reported G-load >capability is unchanged. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: "A. F. Gus Aguirre" <PTCA1.AGUIRR01(at)SSW.ALCOA.COM>
Subject: Project
I am buiding an RV6A. Started in October/93, completed the empennage in April 94 and presently finishing the wings. My wife, Peggy, and I are looking forward to finishing this kit. We would like to fly down to Ecuador where I am from. Maybe we will do this in the year 2000. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: How much primer? (fwd)
Date: Mar 06, 1996
I used Randolph Epibond epoxy primer. You mix it 1:1 primer to catalist. I used a total of 2 quarts of primer and 2 quarts of catalist which is one gallon mixed. This did all the interior of my RV4 and I have a small amount left over. I also wasted some as when you paint in small batches you always have a little left over. This did not include the spar as I had the premade spar which is anodized. I think anything over a gallon and you are using too much. Milage may very with different primers. Herman > Date: 06 Mar 96 09:30:31 EST > From: James Kelley <compuserve.com!72466.1355(at)matronics.com> > To: RV-LIST > Subject: RV-List: How much primer? > > How much primer does it take to cover the inside of an RV6? Not a joke! I am > using the Sherwin Williams wash primer and wondering about how much I can expect > to purchase. So far I have used about two gal of reducer and a little over a > gal of primer and have a lot more building to go. I know I have wasted some of > the first gal just getting the feel of how it covers. Does anyone have a > rought guess as to how much they used in their project from start to finish? > > Thanks in advance. > James Kelley (Main Spars ready to rivet!) > > Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: John Morrissey <John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
> > > > > >Hey Guys, > >I'm kind of a newbie at all of this, I'm finishing my @#$%# elevator trim >tab, again. I'm trying to do this on the cheap if that at all exists in the >homebuilt world. I feel pretty comfortable with the rivet gun and am >wondering why I want a rivet squeezer in the first place. Does this do some >things that a 3x gun will not? Are there places that I can't use a gun/bar >but can use the squeezer? A rivit squeezer does not do anything a 3x gun does - BUT it does do rivits a lot nicer, especially in area's like your "@#$%# elevator trim tab". This particular part is made out of some of the lightest material in the aircraft and is therefore easy to bend and distort with a gun. I would suggest that you put the hard word on some of you chapter mates and borrow one for a night or two. Be warned they do take a bit of getting used too so you might borrow the owner of the tool as well to demonstrate its correct use. BTW the nicest trim tabs I've seen use small end ribs made out of scrap instead of trying to bend the ends of the tab over to form the end of the trim tab. > >I hear some of the big boys in the chapter talking with a gleam in their eye >about their Avery squeezers and I just figure I have not run into the right >assembly that will make me long for squeezer ownership. Besides, the wife >was just saying that there has not been a single tool delivered to the front >door in almost a month and I would'nt want the UPS guy to forget where I >live. So could someone shed a little light my way as to why they use a >squeezer instead of a gun. I know what you mean :-) I have a lot of stuff delivered to work so that it "magically" appears in the workshop. When asked "Where did that come from??" I answer - "Oh that's been here for months??" Happy rivitting!! John Morrissey --------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Morrissey CSIRO ITS Communications Section Phone:- 06 2766811 Fax:- 06 2766617 Mobile:- 018 628804 Email:- John.Morrissey(at)its.csiro.au CSIRO ---- AUSTRALIA'S SCIENCE, AUSTRALIA'S FUTURE! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
>Hey Guys, > >I'm kind of a newbie at all of this, I'm finishing my @#$%# elevator trim >tab, again. I'm trying to do this on the cheap if that at all exists in the >homebuilt world. I feel pretty comfortable with the rivet gun and am >wondering why I want a rivet squeezer in the first place. Does this do some >things that a 3x gun will not? Are there places that I can't use a gun/bar >but can use the squeezer? > >I hear some of the big boys in the chapter talking with a gleam in their eye >about their Avery squeezers and I just figure I have not run into the right >assembly that will make me long for squeezer ownership. Besides, the wife >was just saying that there has not been a single tool delivered to the front >door in almost a month and I would'nt want the UPS guy to forget where I >live. So could someone shed a little light my way as to why they use a >squeezer instead of a gun. > >Eric Henson Eric: If you have access to both manual and pneumatic squeezers through members in your chapter, you can try both out. If you have enough members, you can probably borrow enough times from different people that you'll never need to buy one. Just remember to do something nice for them:) I prefer the pnuematic, very fast for both dimpling and setting very uniform rivets. When it come time for dimpling the ribs in the wings, you'll be glad you have a squeezer and if you're going to buy one, I'd spend the extra bucks and get the pneumatic. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: gretzw(at)tcplink.nrel.gov
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Heated Pitot with Static source
There has been alot of conversation lately about Static Sources. I would like to add something that has not been covered. Many builders, myself included, have installed a heated pitot tube that has a static source in it. No need to run lines to the rear of your plane. Just add one more line going to the pitot tube. A total of two lines going to the pitot, one for ram air pressure, one for static pressure. Look in most of the aircraft parts catalogs, to find the AN5814-12 pitot tube. It is a chrome plated heated pitot tube with static source that is 12 volt. To mount this tube please contact me for my pitot tube mounting kit for the RV series of aircraft. My address and phone number are in the back of Van's catalog under other sources. If you contact me I will send you a flyer on the bracket kit. You may also see more information about this kit on jhovan WWW home page (the RV Web site). The bracket is also chrome plated to match the pitot tubes, but I also offer it in paintable form. Please do not make any requests of me over E-Mail. I shouldn't receive that kind of E-Mail on my work computer. Warren Gretz 3664 E. Lake Dr. Littleton, CO 80121 (303) 770-3811 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Gun vs. Squeezer
I disagree, I get better results with a gun and bar that with the squeezer. I can use longer rivets when using the gun, and the surface is smoother. The .032 skins on my wings are as flat as the backriveted fuel tank stifeners. The problem most people have with the gun is using to low of a pressure. This causes the gun to hammer on the parts for to long of a time. I use a 3X gun @38 Lbs. for the -3 rivets.. I get better results dimpling with the "C" tool and hammer than I do with a squeezer as well. When dimpled propperly, the skins should not have any distortion around the hole. Use 4-5 taps to dimple a hole, and the skin will be as flat as when you took it out of the box. Chris > > Eric , > It is always better to squeez then buck, and yes you are going to run into > places you do not want to try to buck rivets. The squeezer from Avery is the > top of the line .Keep up the good work ....George Orndorff > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
> > I'm thinking about what tools to buy. Is a pneumatic squeezer a > replacement for a rivet gun, a replacement for a hand squeezer, or in > addition to both? You need a gun, and (IMHO) either a hand squeezer or pneumatic. I find it's handy to have both, that way I don't have to spend as much time changing dies and yokes. But I admit I'm a tool-aholic. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: pmbs(at)probe.att.com (Paul M Bilodeau +1 +1 908 957 6611)
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Builders in the Tampa/Orlando Area???
Hi, I'll be in the Tampa/Orlando area March 10-17th. Any RV-6/6A builders that would be interested in showing off their project? Your stage of construction doesn't matter as I am just getting together the tools, and in need of seeing workshop and/or construction set ups. Thanks. Paul Bilodeau pmbs(at)probe.mt.att.com 908-957-6611 ps email response if fine, as I believe I'll have a laptop with me or can get to one to check my mail even after I leave. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
Text item: A SQUEEZER IS MUCH QUIETER >Hey Guys, > >I'm kind of a newbie at all of this, I'm finishing my @#$%# elevator trim >tab, again. I'm trying to do this on the cheap if that at all exists in the >homebuilt world. I feel pretty comfortable with the rivet gun and am >wondering why I want a rivet squeezer in the first place. Does this do some >things that a 3x gun will not? Are there places that I can't use a gun/bar >but can use the squeezer? > >I hear some of the big boys in the chapter talking with a gleam in their eye >about their Avery squeezers and I just figure I have not run into the right >assembly that will make me long for squeezer ownership. Besides, the wife >was just saying that there has not been a single tool delivered to the front >door in almost a month and I would'nt want the UPS guy to forget where I >live. So could someone shed a little light my way as to why they use a >squeezer instead of a gun. > >Eric Henson Eric: If you have access to both manual and pneumatic squeezers through members in your chapter, you can try both out. If you have enough members, you can probably borrow enough times from different people that you'll never need to buy one. Just remember to do something nice for them:) I prefer the pnuematic, very fast for both dimpling and setting very uniform rivets. When it come time for dimpling the ribs in the wings, you'll be glad you have a squeezer and if you're going to buy one, I'd spend the extra bucks and get the pneumatic. Bob Skinner RV-6 Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: Re: RV-List: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest From: Bob Skinner <ltec.net!BSkinner(at)matronics.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:07:12 -0600 tel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22172 for From: KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Re: RV List WWW Search
>Just to let those people that either don't have a PC which to > download Mr. Gibbons search engine to, or can't afford the > download time there is an alternative. > > http://dunkin.Princeton.EDU/.rvlist/ is a WWW Form that will > allow you to search through the RV List archives. I haven't > spent a great deal of time on it, but if you find it useful I'd > like to hear it. Comments and suggestions are also welcome. > > Marcelo - This worked well the limited time I tried it. An option for us Mac users. Mike Kukulski (kukulskim(at)aol.com) RV-4 N96MK (installing trim cable) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
Eric, You ring my bell when you say building on the cheap. Since I had never done any of this stuff before, and the package I bought had a hand squeezer and the Avery tool in it, I can't say if it can be done only with a rivet gun. I do believe that if that is what you want to do, you can. There are many things you can put your money out for that will make the job easier, faster, maybe in some cases nicer. Each of us have to make the cost/convience judgement call. I was like you, I heard the big boys talk about stuff and their cost, I almost backed out of the task before I started. I took it on as a challenge, to do it without all of that expensive stuff. I can say that I used the hand squeezer as much as possible because it felt as if there was better control. I did wear out the tatco hand squeezer just as the wrap up was in sight. Mine was a Tatco, the guy I bought it from said he had gotten it from Bob Avery (this was 8 years ago). I understand Bobs' units are much better these days. To get, or not to get, this is the money question. John D I'm kind of a newbie at all of this, I'm finishing my @#$%# elevator trim >tab, again. I'm trying to do this on the cheap if that at all exists in the >homebuilt world. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Project
Gus, Sounds like an interesting trip. Certainly is a good goal to keep you working on the plane. Ihope you finish it in plenty of time. John D > I am buiding an RV6A. Started in October/93, completed the > empennage in April 94 and presently finishing the wings. My wife, > Peggy, and I are looking forward to finishing this kit. We would > like to fly down to Ecuador where I am from. Maybe we will do > this in the year 2000. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Eric: If you have access to both manual and pneumatic squeezers through >members in your chapter, you can try both out. If you have enough members, >you can probably borrow enough times from different people that you'll never >need to buy one. Just remember to do something nice for them:) I prefer >the pnuematic, very fast for both dimpling and setting very uniform rivets. >When it come time for dimpling the ribs in the wings, you'll be glad you >have a squeezer and if you're going to buy one, I'd spend the extra bucks >and get the pneumatic. Bob Skinner RV-6 > Eric: I totally agree with Bob. A guy told me the pneumatic took a year off your building time. I don't know if it was that much but I built my 4 in under 23 months with no fast build options or outside help. Best tool I purchased. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com (Doug Weiler)
Subject: Re: Minneapolis RV forum
> >Say again....! When, where and what time..? > The Twin Cities RV Forum will be Sat, April 27, 1996. 8 am to 5 pm with an evening banquet at 7 pm. Location: Regent Aviation, St. Paul Downtown Airport, St. Paul, MN. Forums, a workshop, plus BIll Benedict and the RV-8. E- mail me below with your address and I'll send you a registration and all the details. Doug -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = Doug Weiler, pres. MN Wing, Van's AirForce, RV-4 in progress, N722DW = 347 Krattley Lane = Hudson, WI 54016 = 715-386-1239 = email: dougweil(at)mail.pressenter.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Cowl flaps
REGARDING Cowl flaps See, you can't beat the collective wisdom & experience of this list. James Kelley your bi-metal coil idea is beautiful in simplicity and more sensible that what I proposed. Thanx for the input. -Elon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BPattonsoa(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Re: Gun vs. Squeezer
I'm with Chris. I always get a better surface with a gun. I use a flush set about 7/8" dia., and enough air pressure so it takes about 4-6 hits to drive the -3 rivets. Have to be a little light on the bucking bar, which seems to put the rivet all the way down into the csk or dimple. Since I dimple everything I can, it could be a set of "spring back" dies might make things better. Bruce Patton tail goin on a 6a ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: RV-6 Cabin heat
One of the Bingellis books has plans for this, I think the parts were from Dr Porsche but in his low rent mode (people's car). LD > >> My oil temperature never got over 130 degrees, this with my cooler door >>completely closed. On the trip out (9 degrees), I blocked the inlet area >>with duct tape, reducing the inlet area by 1/2. On initial climb out, I >>thought that I would have to turn back and land as cylinder head temps >>approached 425 degrees. As soon as I leveled off, the temps dropped to >>350-375. On the trip back, without duct tape (15 degrees), the CHT's ran at >>250-275. I think I'll look into some cowl flaps before next winter. They >>should be a little easier to fit with only two pipes exiting the cowl. Does >>anyone have any ideas on using a MAC servo for activating the cowl flap as >>opposed to a linkage that would have to be disconnected. An electrical plug >>would be a little more convenient. Would the MAC servo stand up to the >>heat? Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 >> > >Can't remember the exacts, but I flew a Lancair (please forgive) that had >automatic cowl flaps. The owner told me they were made from parts of a Porche. >The device was a bi-metal coil that would expand or contract with temp opening >and closing the cowl flap. This method looked real simple, can't say how it >worked temp wise, but on taxi in the summer they were fully open and at altitude >closed about half. > > >James Kelley (main spars ready to rivet.) > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Gun vs. Squeezer
> I disagree, I get better results with a gun and bar that with the squeezer. >I can use longer rivets when using the gun, and the surface is smoother. The >.032 skins on my wings are as flat as the backriveted fuel tank stifeners. >The problem most people have with the gun is using to low of a pressure. This >causes the gun to hammer on the parts for to long of a time. I use a 3X gun @38 >Lbs. for the -3 rivets.. I get better results dimpling with the "C" tool and >hammer than I do with a squeezer as well. When dimpled propperly, the skins >should not have any distortion around the hole. Use 4-5 taps to dimple a hole, >and the skin will be as flat as when you took it out of the box. > > Chris Chris: I agree with your statement about the "C" tool. Using the same dies, I've found that the "C" tool forms a little better dimple. I would caution builders new to this forum not to take the above air pressure/gun size as gospel. Your gun and regulator are probably different and blindly setting to the above may not work for you, You'll have to "customize" each set-up. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
> >I'm thinking about what tools to buy. Is a pneumatic squeezer a >replacement for a rivet gun, a replacement for a hand squeezer, or in >addition to both? > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------ >frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; >Frank van der Hulst | Libraries are just genteel versions Frank: A replacement for a hand squeezer. Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RFlunker(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Re: When To Order Wing Kit?
While waiting for redo parts for my HS spar, I did the VS. The day I finished my VS I ordered the Wing with the BAC deluxe assembly. That was Nov 4. Received the Wing today!! All I have left on the emp is to fit the tips.. Can't wait to get started on the wing. That Phlogiston Spar sure looks beautiful! Now I'm thinking about ordering the Fuse. Unfortunately I won't have much storage space while I'm working on both wings. Two questions: 1. What are some of the build times it has taken for the wings?? 2. How big is the Fuse Box(es)? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Shelby1138(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Subject: Re: Spring back dimple dies
I have both Avery and Cleaveland Dies and can't tell a big difference, but this weekend I visited Chris Brooks project near here in Murfreesboro and was amazed at how much better his rivits looked than mine. He described his technique and he thinks his lighter ball pene(sp) hammer is a big factor. He is using Cleaveland dies and pointed out there is a smoother transition from the flat area to the dimpled area on the female die, another factor. The issue for me is I have been using a rubber mallet and basically wacking away. When I got home, sure enough, almost all of my dimples showed some stretching in the area around the rivit head. So now I am thinking do I need a $39 dead blow hammer from Cleaveland (8 or 10 oz.)? Also, Chris uses what looks like a tap hammer for his .0016 skins. Shelby in Nashville. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan)
Subject: Wing wiring conduit
What diameter conduit (is it ID or OD) do you recommend and what size hole is drilled in the ribs webs for that conduit? Thanks, Bob Haan Portland, OR RV6-A both wings in the jigs bobh(at)synopsys.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 06, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: RV-6 Cabin heat
On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 EBundy2620(at)aol.com wrote: > >should be a little easier to fit with only two pipes exiting the cowl. Does > >anyone have any ideas on using a MAC servo for activating the cowl flap as > >opposed to a linkage that would have to be disconnected. An electrical plug > >would be a little more convenient. Would the MAC servo stand up to the > >heat? Thanks, Bob Skinner RV-6 > > > Wow! Sounds like cowl flaps are almost a necessity for us fortunate > cold-region folks. You might look into quarter scale servos; (at finer hobby > shops everywhere) they put out quite a bit of torque. I don't think they're > as precise as the MAC, but for cowl flaps I bet they'd be fine. They're a > LOT cheaper. The MAC servo does have some advantages. It is a jackscrew type servo with a relatively slow travel. You can control it with a simple switch (included) and it has a position indicator guage (also included). A 1/4 scale Radio Control servo has extremely fast travel, far too fast to control by a toggle switch, and you'd have to disassemble and rewire the servo to make it work that way. An RC servo is designed to be controlled by a variable-width square wave. This is a simple & cheap circuit to make, but it is more complicated than a switch. Since the RC servo has a spur gear drive, it doesn't lock in the position you last set it at, like the MAC servo does. Holding something like a cowl flap wide open requires a continuous torque from the motor, so the servo is drawing current all the time, and may or may not last very long in a real airplane. The RC servo is actually better suited for an autopilot system, where it has to make small, fast changes all the time. Unfortunately, I don't like the idea from a safety point of view. I went through a couple of dozen servos when I flew RC, and they tended to fail unpredictably, often failing *hard-over*, which can happen if the little potentiometer inside them gets dirty or has a broken wire. Imagine if you used an RC servo to power a servo tab on your aileron and it failed hard over. You would have to override the servo tab by brute force til you landed. Or whatever. The RC servos I have owned were really neat, compact devices, but *not* aircraft quality IMHO. Curt Reimer *Still* finishing my 2nd RV-6 wing. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Kevin Vap <kvap(at)sky.net>
Subject: Tool Questions (sprayer, die grinder)
Date: Mar 06, 1996
Although more expensive, would a sprayer with a remote cup (2 5' hoses = from cup to spray nozzle/handle) be a better choice? I could see = advantages in inverted spraying and weight to hold. However, would the = cleanup be worse? Is a smaller or larger die grinder preferred? I could see that the = small one would be lighter, but harder to keep steady (and your hands = are closer to the wheel). -Kevin Vap RV-6, KC RVators kvap@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~kvap ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Zilik(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: Fusalage box size
>1. What are some of the build times it has taken for the wings?? >2. How big is the Fuse Box(es)? 1. My wings are approaching 8 months and are almost done. I have been building both wings at the same time with lots of iteruptions for honey doo's and 3 weeks off due to a tonsilectomy(sp). 2. 4' x 8' x 1'. I have fusalage parts stuffed all over the house and hope to find them all when the time comes. Gary Zilik RV-6A wings almost done. Honey doo of the week... Assembly and installation of her cars engine. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: Spring back dimple dies
I spoke with Judy Avery yesterday about the "spring back" dimple dies. She said their dimple dies have always been "spring back" and they have enhanced the description in their newer catalogs. As an alternative to a dead blow hammer, you might want to try the new wooden dimpling mallet offered by Averys. I've heard several builders say they got a very nice job with it and it is lighter than a dead blow hammer. Keep up the great building and fly safe! Becki Orndorff >Has anyone used the "spring back" dimple dies from Avery? Is there >really any difference in the dimple these dies make (are they worth >$26)? >B F Gibbons >RV-6 (first wing) > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: Rudder
> IMHO I'd live with it, it's suprising how all these horrors vanish on a > finished, painted AC. > Dan RV-4 N9167Z > Albuquerque I can only hope. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6A tail light
> If you are talking about Vans leading edge plastic lens cover, then it will > pass the >requirements< of the FAA. It has to do with the angular from > ahead to the side. If your inspector doesn't pass it, then you are in deep > stuff. No telling what else he has a personnal vendetta against. > The main thing, the reuirement for the tip lights to show behind the > aitcraft is only a few degrees. If you notice, the whelans etc normally > have an opaque cover there. It may be against the reg to show the red or > blue over x degrees to the read of abeam. > John D I've checked into this a little more. The requirement is for nav lights to be visible 110 degrees to the aft of the wing tip. The angle of the Whelen lense cover itself reflects this angle. According to Bob at RMD, his kit for tip lights will allow the strobe/nav combo light to be placed far enough forward to obtain this required angle. I've ordered the combo nav/strobes and the RMD light kits. We'll see. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: Wing wiring conduit
> What diameter conduit (is it ID or OD) do you recommend and what size hole > is drilled in the ribs webs for that conduit? > > Thanks, > > Bob Haan Tom at Van's recommended 1/2" (Outside diam.) poly tubing when I spoke to him. It's the milky white plastic tubing you can buy at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. for pennies / foot. I drilled 1/2" holes (unibit) in the ribs about 1" from the top skin, and about 1-1/2" aft of the main spar (I thinks these measurements are the ones I used... whatever Frank has in his instructions). I haven't tried to push any wire through it yet, so I can't attest to how well it works. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: "Gene Gottschalk (286-0708)" <geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
Frank, IMHO the pneumatic squeezer is in addition to the rivet gun and hand sqeezer. My personal favorite is the hand squeezer. It's easy to set up, doesn't make noise, is not violent, and I can adjust it for a perfect shop head just by setting a rivet into the yoke and adjusting the distance between the handles by feel. Real easy. The pneumatic squeeze is great when you have lots of the same thing to do, like 10 or more of the same size rivets, but it takes more time to set up. The yoke is short so it doesn't reach too far. It's the best tool for the 1/8" rivets. I just never seem to get a straight squeeze with the hand squeezer. I almost prefer the rivet gun to the hand squeezer for the 1/8". I don't remember ever using the C-tool for setting rivets other than the 3/16 spar rivets, which I would never do again. I rented Van's pneumatic squeezer for the right wing. MUCH better idea. So in conclusion I would recommend all of the above. Each situation is different, you need all the help you can get. -Gene, RV5a, firewall started! >I'm thinking about what tools to buy. Is a pneumatic squeezer a >replacement for a rivet gun, a replacement for a hand squeezer, or in >addition to both? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Gene Gottschalk |N| e-mail : geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov~ ~ Goddard Space Flight Center |A| [128.183.166.137] ~ ~ Code 540/505, Hughes STX |S| Telephone : (301) 286-0708 ~ ~ Greenbelt, MD 20771 |A| FAX : (301) 286-0270 ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ^ ^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Spring back dimple dies
On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 Shelby1138(at)aol.com wrote: > So now I am thinking do I need a $39 dead > blow hammer from Cleaveland (8 or 10 oz.)? Also, Chris uses what looks like a > tap hammer for his .0016 skins. I've gotten several comments on how good the dimpling is on my wing skins, and I use Avery dies and a ball peen hammer. When I dimpled the .016 skins I switched to a wooden mallet. A rubber mallet would definitely be a problem. The other thing I've noticed is that the dimples are much nicer when the C-frame is sitting on the concrete floor. With the same tools, but with the C-frame sitting on the wooden bench, the dimples are not as nice. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 fuselage in jig ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: ward9(at)llnl.gov (Rich Ward)
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack
>light wiring as well. There is possible radio interference to worry about >as well with the single power unit located in the cockpit. Right? >Bob Skinner RV-6 I always thought that the primary reason for using the power supplies out at the wing tips was to eliminate long runs of high voltage and thereby reduce RF interference and electrical noise. The delta costs for the two power supply system over the single is ~$100 so it is worth thinking about. The question I have, is there really a noise problem if the single power supply system is installed correctly, i.e., properly shielded and grounded wire, etc? Would there be a RFI problem if I installed a wing tip comm antenna and ran the RG58 down the same conduit as the high voltage strobe wire? -- Rich, RV4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: joehine(at)mi.net (joehine)
Subject: Re: Cowl flaps
>REGARDING Cowl flaps > >See, you can't beat the collective wisdom & experience of this list. > >James Kelley your bi-metal coil idea is beautiful in simplicity and more >sensible that what I proposed. Thanx for the input. -Elon > > also guys its not necessary to use expensive porche parts. The same thermostatic bimetal controlers are in aircooled Volkswagan engines. > Joe Hine joehine(at)mi.net 506-452-1072 Home 506-452-3495 Work ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AB320FLYER(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Seattle visit
Greetings, I'm interested in visiting builders in the Seatle-Tacoma area on Monday, March 11th. I'll be staying at the Sheraton Hotel in Tacoma, arriving around 12:30 PM. I've purchased most of the necessary tools and I'm setting up my shop to start building an RV-8 when they're available. I'm interested in everything from shop layouts to finished products. Joel Harding AB320 FLYER @aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Spring back dimple dies
>I have both Avery and Cleaveland Dies and can't tell a big difference, but >this weekend I visited Chris Brooks project near here in Murfreesboro and was >amazed at how much better his rivits looked than mine. He described his >technique and he thinks his lighter ball pene(sp) hammer is a big factor. He >is using Cleaveland dies and pointed out there is a smoother transition from >the flat area to the dimpled area on the female die, another factor. The >issue for me is I have been using a rubber mallet and basically wacking away. >When I got home, sure enough, almost all of my dimples showed some stretching >in the area around the rivit head. So now I am thinking do I need a $39 dead >blow hammer from Cleaveland (8 or 10 oz.)? Also, Chris uses what looks like a >tap hammer for his .0016 skins. > >Shelby in Nashville. > Shelby: $39.00 hammer? Sounds like the US government:) If you a refering to the use of the "C" tool, I'd recommend a regular 'ol ball pean hammer. Wouldn't use a carpenter's hammer (unless you're wearing eye protection) because of the hardened face. As a matter, you should always wear eye protection when striking the ram as chips can fly. I think you'll find the metal on metal does a much better job than a dead blow, ruber hammer or wooden mallet. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
From: snoopyar(at)usa.pipeline.com (DAVI HOWARD)
My question is how do you dimple rib flanges that are already secured to the jig, do you use the rivet gun? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV6junkie(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: How much primer?
I can't believe that I'm getting into a primer discussion but I'm responding in the hope that others will learn from my mistakes. Why are you priming the INSIDE of your RV, it's 2024-T3 aluminum! Do you plan to keep your aircraft outside in the rust belt, with the canopy open? Trust me, save the time/money/weight/aggravation. It's a total waste. You are MUCH better off spraying ACF-50 once a year, during your annual perhaps. A corrosion prohibiter like ACF-50 adds no weight to the airframe, requires little effort to apply, and it works much better than primers. It will also help you find loose or smoking rivets. It will work in the wings and tail. as well. It is wire/electronic friendly as it keeps connections from corroding. But if you feel compelled to spray poison in your house/garage, just a light coating will do. Maybe a quart for the entire inside. You don't need to cover the surface like paint. It's not paint. The 6061must be primed and will require more coverage, like paint because it will rust. You mentioned that you used two gallons of primer already; and you're only on the main spar. You are using WAY too much of this stuff. If you have a gallon of primer glued to your tail surfaces, good luck on your weight and balance. A tail heavy plane is a pain in the a$$ to fix. Sorry for venting but there is too much bad advice on priming (and other things) going around. I'll get off my soap-box now. Gary Corde RV-6 N211GC ________________________________________________________________________________
From: K8DO(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-6 Cabin heat
>You would have >to override the servo tab by brute force til you landed. Or whatever. Hi Curt.. It is the "whatever" that makes me nervous... Denny ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Rudder
> > > IMHO I'd live with it, it's suprising how all these horrors vanish on a > > finished, painted AC. > > Dan RV-4 N9167Z > > Albuquerque > > I can only hope. The thing is you have plenty of time to decide. Put it aside and move on, and if it hasn't "vanished" by the time you get ready to start rigging it up, you could always make a new one then (or even AFTER the plane is flying). That may seem daunting right now but once you've got the whole plane done I doubt that making a new rudder will seem like much of a big a deal. Randall ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Mar 07, 1996
Subject: Re: RV6A tail light
> >I've checked into this a little more. The requirement is for nav >lights to be visible 110 degrees to the aft of the wing tip. The >angle of the Whelen lense cover itself reflects this angle. >According to Bob at RMD, his kit for tip lights will allow the >strobe/nav combo light to be placed far enough forward to obtain this >required angle. > >I've ordered the combo nav/strobes and the RMD light kits. We'll >see. > >B F Gibbons >RV-6 (first wing) > Relax, I've had no problems with the feds with the Whelens under RMD's lense. As a matter of fact my inspector commented on how nice they looked. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
>My question is how do you dimple rib flanges that are already secured to >the jig, do you use the rivet gun? Davi: I'd hate to even think of using a rivet gun, it would beat the dickens out of things, be noisy and very time consuming compared to squeezing. This is where either the hand squeezer or pneumatic comes in very handy and I'd sure suggest the pneumatic as it is much faster when dimpling and much easier when setting rivets, especially the # 4 rivets. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Stuart Fraley <swfraley(at)alpha.comsource.net>
Subject: Re: Fusalage box size
>1. My wings are approaching 8 months and are almost done. I have been >building both wings at the same time with lots of iteruptions for honey doo's >and 3 weeks off due to a tonsilectomy(sp). > >2. 4' x 8' x 1'. I have fusalage parts stuffed all over the house and hope to >find them all when the time comes. > >Gary Zilik RV-6A wings almost done. > This idea of building both wings at the same time seems to be pretty popular. To do this, do you just build two jigs and do Step 1 right, then Step 1 left, etc.? Or do most people use the back-to-back jig that was in the RVator about a year ago? Stuart Fraley RV-6 Farting around with the trim tab ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: RV-6 Cabin heat
>Wow! Sounds like cowl flaps are almost a necessity for us fortunate >cold-region folks. You might look into quarter scale servos; (at finer hobby >shops everywhere) they put out quite a bit of torque. I don't think they're >as precise as the MAC, but for cowl flaps I bet they'd be fine. They're a >LOT cheaper. > >Get this done in the next 2-3 months so you can do all the R&D for me, ok? > :) > >-- Ed Bundy I'll try to give the subject a lot of thought while I'm flying around this summer:) Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Flasher Circuit
REGARDING Flasher Circuit Rich Klee: I missed both your e-mail & s-mail address for your kind offer of the flasher circuit. Please re-send privately. Many thanx, Elon. ormsby1(at)llnl.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Cowl flaps
Thanks to all who responded with ideas concerning cowl flaps. I guess I prefer manual controls as opposed to automatic. I feel that it's important to make de-cowling the airplane as easy as possible so it is easy to inspect and thought unplugging an electrical plug might be easier than messing with cotter pins, nuts & bolts. A regular spring loaded fitting that clamps on a ball joint that are used on cowl flaps on certified airplanes might be the slickest and cheapest way to go (obtained from salvage yard). Hope I can remember to work on this when nice summer weather is here:). Bob Skinner RV-6 P.S. I'm helping the local mechanic catch up on a back log of annuals. I'm working on a Mooney M20E. Holy cow! This airplane really makes working on the RV a breeze. That doggone Mooney has a house full of furniture crammed into one room, what a nightmare. A great example of why engineers should be required to work on the equipment they design. I think Mooney engineers have a very perverse sense of humor. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Tool Questions (sprayer, die grinder)
Kevin, I did have a sprayer with the cup on about 5 feet of hose. The clean up almost drove me crazy. I wound up with a low press/high vol with the cup and gun combined. You are right, at times it isn't as handy as the other, but over all to me, it was worth it. The die grinder I don't know, I only have one, it's about 6-8 inchs long and is no problem. Maybe had I had a smaller one, it would be different. John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
>My question is how do you dimple rib flanges that are already secured to >the jig, do you use the rivet gun? I didn't unless there was absolutely no other way. Use the hand squeezer. If the hole is closer to the web than the dimple will allow, then grind off the edge of a die so that it will conform to the space available and use it. It worked for me. John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: Stuart Fraley <swfraley(at)alpha.comsource.net>
Subject: How Bad is This?
To the List, I'm working on the left elevator. After marking and drilling everything, I countersunk the counterweight skin, per the Justice instructions. However, when I was dimpling the skeleton, I got carried away and dimpled the tip rib. So, now I've got a dimpled rib under a countersunk skin. Can I just rivet this together with a longer rivet, do I need to un-dimple the rib somehow, or do I need to order another rib? Thanks. Stuart Fraley RV-6 23899 Left Elevator/Trim tab ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: RV6A tail light
>> blue over x degrees to the read of abeam. >> John D B F, in that above I should have said green, not blue. And I take it that in you below statement you meant 110 degrees from the nose of the a/c, not to the aft of the wing tip. Or in nautical terms, 20 degrees aft of the abeam of the port and starboard. There, I got that nautical stuff out of my system. :-) John D lights to be visible 110 degrees to the aft of the wing tip. The >B F Gibbons >RV-6 (first wing) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: rbusick(at)nmsu.edu (Robert Busick)
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
I wish I had only $1500 in tools. I estimate more like $5000 and I haven't bought the pnumatic rivet squeezer yet. Nothing more frustrating than to try and build something with the wrong tool! I had no idea that I would need all the woodworking tools that I now have. You can save on woodworking tools if you get someone elses jig, but to build it right, you need the right stuff. Bob Busick RV-6 >My feeling is that if you are going to sink $35,000 to $50,000 building >this airplane, $1500 isn't a large part(3-4%) of the total cost to buy >good quality tools. I don't think anything on this project is cheap. >You have to weigh time saved vs. dollars saved. >But as Dennis Miller says "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" > >Ed Cole RV6A N648RV >ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
From: snoopyar(at)usa.pipeline.com (DAVI HOWARD)
I guess I didn't phrase my question correctly. I am done with my tail section and half way through one wing, I was just wondering how anyone could build an RV without a hand squeezer. I just about swear by my Avery brand. Davi RV-4 (Prosealing) loads of fun ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: PAUL_ROSALES(at)prodigy.com (MR PAUL A ROSALES)
Subject: Re: Side by Side Wings
-- [ From: Paul A. Rosales * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- > Date: Friday, 08-Mar-96 12:02 AM > > This idea of building both wings at the same time seems to be pretty > popular. To do this, do you just build two jigs and do Step 1 right, then > Step 1 left, etc.? Or do most people use the back-to-back jig that was in > the RVator about a year ago? > > Stuart Fraley RV-6 > Farting around with the trim tab > > > Stuart, I have two jigs lengthwise using half (9') of the garage (18'WX20'L). I have 36 inches on either side of the wings with 36 inches in between,and this is working out wonderfully. And yes, I'm doing Step 1 right, Step 1 left, and it's going real fast for me! I have to admit that I am using the Barnard Deluxe wing kit. My wife and I have 4 jobs between the two of us to pay for our RV-6A so we decided the Deluxe wing kit would be best for our situation. We figured that by only working 1 weekend day per week (we rest from our week the other day), it would take us well over a year to complete both wings. If all goes well, we hope to be done by the end of April and move on to the fuselage! For those considering Barnard's Deluxe build kit, I thus far have assembled for EACH wing: skeletons (very plumb!), fitted/drilled/clecoed top skins, installed W425 gusset/bellcrank assemblies, attached/aligned leading edge ribs. Also, for ONE wing, I have fitted/drilled/clecoed one leading edge skin, all in only 14 hours spread over 2 days! I highly recommend the kit for those with no time but with extra $$. Good luck with your project! Paul_Rosales(at)prodigy.com Lancaster, CA. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Michael Harris <73114.473(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Hs problems
Hi! First off, thanks to all list members who have given their advice on previous postings! We have progressed quite well - to the point where the HS is mounted in the jig - with all ribs riveted to the rear spar (except for the tip ribs of course) and end ribs are bolted in place. When we added the front spar, we noted that it is about 3/8" short of touching the tip ribs (on either side). I think this has been repaired by cutting the factory flange end off and cutting & bending a piece of aluminium to replace this by joining the spar to the tip rib. Anyway - we now have a situation where there is a 3/32" gap between the center rib and the front spar when the front spar is lifted so that it meets at the correct point we marked on the tip rib (7 5/8" from bottom spar? as I recall). Should the center rib to main spar junction be shimmed to position it properly? We found that when this was done, and the front center rib was added, it was 3/32" higher than the ribs on either side [not good for skinning!]. We could also just let the front spar meet the end rib at a lower point ... Clearly we need to make some adjustments - what sort of latitude is there for changing dimensions on the plan? - will this result in problems down the road? Does it sound like we are being too "perfectionist" in our approach - at this rate - it will take a *very* long time. Thanks in advance for any help! Cheers, MIKE 3M wheel only *slightly* used... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Fusalage box size
> > >1. My wings are approaching 8 months and are almost done. I have been > >building both wings at the same time with lots of iteruptions for honey doo's > >and 3 weeks off due to a tonsilectomy(sp). > > > >2. 4' x 8' x 1'. I have fusalage parts stuffed all over the house and hope to > >find them all when the time comes. > > > >Gary Zilik RV-6A wings almost done. > > > > > This idea of building both wings at the same time seems to be pretty > popular. To do this, do you just build two jigs and do Step 1 right, then > Step 1 left, etc.? Or do most people use the back-to-back jig that was in > the RVator about a year ago? > > Stuart Fraley RV-6 > Farting around with the trim tab > I used two jigs and started successive operations on alternate wings so the number of mistakes would be equal.( I didn't want to fly in circles). I would hate to do this with less than two clear feet between wings. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: How Bad is This?
If this were my problem, I would seriously consider 1. flattening out the dimples with the flush sets in my squeezer 2. rivetting a strip of 025 under the rib flange using csk rivets through rib and strip between existing holes 3. drilling the strip through the flattened holes 4. rivetting through skins, rib and strip. This should be just as strong as the original even if the flattened dimples are fatigued. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > To the List, > > I'm working on the left elevator. After marking and drilling everything, I > countersunk the counterweight skin, per the Justice instructions. However, > when I was dimpling the skeleton, I got carried away and dimpled the tip > rib. So, now I've got a dimpled rib under a countersunk skin. Can I just > rivet this together with a longer rivet, do I need to un-dimple the rib > somehow, or do I need to order another rib? Thanks. > > Stuart Fraley > RV-6 23899 > Left Elevator/Trim tab > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: "Mark D Hiatt" <OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com>
Subject: Schoolin'?
Regarding builders' seminars, and how to develop the skills you need to build an RV, who has the best and worst? I'd like to rivet something else, before I start on my airplane, you know what I mean? <> I've seen notices for Alexander, Van's, the EAA and various local chapters. Are any of them better or worse than any of the others? Mark D Hiatt OttoPilot_MSN Aviation Forum Manager, The Microsoft Network ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DerFlieger(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Flasher Circuit
>Rich Klee: >I missed both your e-mail & s-mail address for your kind offer of the >flasher >circuit. Please re-send privately. >Many thanx, Elon. Me too, me too, please Rich! Jim Stugart Derflieger(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: How Bad is This?
>To the List, > >I'm working on the left elevator. After marking and drilling everything, I >countersunk the counterweight skin, per the Justice instructions. However, >when I was dimpling the skeleton, I got carried away and dimpled the tip >rib. So, now I've got a dimpled rib under a countersunk skin. Can I just >rivet this together with a longer rivet, do I need to un-dimple the rib >somehow, or do I need to order another rib? Thanks. > >Stuart Fraley >RV-6 23899 >Left Elevator/Trim tab > Stuart: I'd use flat sets on boths sides of my rivet squeezer and flatten the dimples in the tip rib. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Hs problems
>We could also just let the front spar meet the end rib at a lower point ... >Clearly we need to make some adjustments - what sort of latitude is there for >changing dimensions on the plan? - will this result in problems down the >road? >Does it sound like we are being too "perfectionist" in our approach - at this >rate - it will take a *very* long time. >Thanks in advance for any help! >Cheers, MIKE Mike, I had the same problem. Just rivet the spar to the tip rib at the lower point. I think mine was about 1/2-3/4" lower. It won't mess anything up later on. You have to be careful though, some measurements are VERY critical, others are not. This one isn't. How do you know if it is or not? Ask someone who's been there. :) -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Videos
Does anyone have the finish kit and systems video that I could borrow for a few days? I'm still well mired in the fuselage, but I'd like to see how all that "other stuff" integrates with it. I'll be happy to pay shipping both ways. Thanks, Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Frank K Justice <Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Undoing Dimples
Text item: >I'm working on the left elevator. After marking and drilling everything, I >countersunk the counterweight skin, per the Justice instructions. However, >when I was dimpling the skeleton, I got carried away and dimpled the tip >rib. So, now I've got a dimpled rib under a countersunk skin. Can I just >rivet this together with a longer rivet, do I need to un-dimple the rib >somehow, or do I need to order another rib? Thanks. There are times when you can use flush sets in a squeezer or Avery tool to "undimple" a mistake. It works better if you have one of the better sets of dimple dies that produce clean dimples without a circular trench on the back side where the dimple begins and if you didn't use too much pressure in making the dimple. If you did have a problem later it would be from a crack that radiates out from the edge of the hole but this is more likely to be initiated when you first make the dimple rather than when you flatten it out. If you find your dimple die is making that circular trench, smooth out the corner of the female die just a touch. That will not affect the sharpness of the dimple on the top side. Just a reminder, readers; because the traffic is so high on the net now I very seldom read any of the messages. I would be happy to answer questions about my instructions, but you will need to address them to me directly. My address is Frank_K_Justice(at)ccm.SSD.intel.com or frank(at)ssd.intel.com Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: RV-List: How Bad is This? From: Stuart Fraley <alpha.comsource.net!swfraley(at)matronics.com> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 20:46:55 -0600 (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA29721 for ; T ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack (fwd)
Date: Mar 08, 1996
I am not aware of any RFI problems if installed per the manual. The wire from the single PS to the strobes in the wings is both shielded and twisted. You only ground the shield at one end (not both). I installed mine this way and there is no RF noise that I can detect. If you have the strobes on just setting on the ramp with the engine off, you will hear the PS whine ans the Cap's charge and discharge. You can also hear the Strobes pop as they are hit with the high voltage. Its almost like someone thumping on the wing tips. Lots of energy here. Also, all my grounds (except for nav lights), go back to single ground bus (actually 3 busses for convience of wiring). This prevents 'ground loops' which can also cause problems. BTW, that is the reason for the fiber washers under the mike jacks that was discussed the other day. This is to ensure you have a single ground point (back at the radio) and this prevents 'ground loops'. Ground loops (not the flying kind) can be caused by different voltage potential in the ground plane which can cause current to flow between these different ground points. Herman > From root Thu Mar 7 22:07:19 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:15:27 -0800 > X-Sender: e937462(at)popcorn.llnl.gov > Message-Id: <v02130500ad643b4e29b6@[128.115.103.230]> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > From: llnl.gov!ward9(at)matronics.com (Rich Ward) > Subject: Re: RV-List: Strobe Power Pack > > >light wiring as well. There is possible radio interference to worry about > >as well with the single power unit located in the cockpit. Right? > >Bob Skinner RV-6 > > > I always thought that the primary reason for using the power supplies out > at the wing tips was to eliminate long runs of high voltage and thereby > reduce RF interference and electrical noise. The delta costs for the two > power supply system over the single is ~$100 so it is worth thinking about. > > > The question I have, is there really a noise problem if the single power > supply system is installed correctly, i.e., properly shielded and grounded > wire, etc? Would there be a RFI problem if I installed a wing tip comm > antenna and ran the RG58 down the same conduit as the high voltage strobe > wire? > > -- Rich, RV4 > > -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: n21pe(at)ix.netcom.com (Peter B. Mortensen)
Subject: Re: RV6A tail light
Others wrote: > blue over x degrees to the read of abeam. > John D I've checked into this a little more. The requirement is for nav lights to be visible 110 degrees to the aft of the wing tip. The angle of the Whelen lense cover itself reflects this angle. According to Bob at RMD, his kit for tip lights will allow the strobe/nav combo light to be placed far enough forward to obtain this required angle. I've ordered the combo nav/strobes and the RMD light kits. We'll see. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) Look at Van's new catalog page 20 and see exactly what the lighting angles are that are legal. Peter Mortensen RV-4 builder ___________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
You wrote: > > I wish I had only $1500 in tools. I estimate more like $5000 and I >haven't bought the pnumatic rivet squeezer yet. Nothing more frustrating >than to try and build something with the wrong tool! I had no idea that I >would need all the woodworking tools that I now have. You can save on >woodworking tools if you get someone elses jig, but to build it right, you >need the right stuff. > >Bob Busick >RV-6 > > >>My feeling is that if you are going to sink $35,000 to $50,000 building >>this airplane, $1500 isn't a large part(3-4%) of the total cost to buy >>good quality tools. I don't think anything on this project is cheap. >>You have to weigh time saved vs. dollars saved. >>But as Dennis Miller says "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" >> >>Ed Cole RV6A N648RV >>ecole(at)ix.netcom.com > > > Your right, Bob. I like to pretend I've only spent $1500. Sometimes I fell the people at Avery's and UPS are going to retire from my expenses alone. The folk's at Sears are also fond of me..... ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: Schoolin'?
You wrote: > >Regarding builders' seminars, and how to develop the skills you >need to build an RV, who has the best and worst? > >I'd like to rivet something else, before I start on my airplane, >you know what I mean? <> > >I've seen notices for Alexander, Van's, the EAA and various >local chapters. Are any of them better or worse than any of the >others? > >Mark D Hiatt >OttoPilot_MSN >Aviation Forum Manager, >The Microsoft Network > Mark, It isn't as bad as you might imagine. I practiced on some scraps for about an hour. George and Becki Orndorff have a practice kit I believe, plus a video on how to build a control surface. They are on the Net, Give them a hollar. Ed Cole ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allan W. Mojzisik" <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: RV6A tail light
Date: Mar 08, 1996
------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0CED.3655DD80 Just as a help to everyone trying to get their lighting right, there was = an article in Sport Aviation -- December, 1993 on page 81 by Tony = Bingelis that describes exactly what is needed for "legal" night = operations. It is a very detailed article and illustrated very well. Al Mojzisik prober(at)iwaynet.net You never have enough good tools only too many cheap ones! ---------- From: John Darby[SMTP:our-town.com!johnd(at)matronics.com] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 1996 9:39 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: RV6A tail light >> blue over x degrees to the read of abeam. >> John D B F, in that above I should have said green, not blue. And I take it that in you below statement you meant 110 degrees from the nose of the a/c, not to the aft of the wing tip. Or in nautical terms, = 20 degrees aft of the abeam of the port and starboard. There, I got that nautical stuff out of my system. :-) John D lights to be visible 110 degrees to the aft of the wing tip. The=20 >B F Gibbons >RV-6 (first wing) > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Schoolin'?
>> I've seen notices for Alexander, Van's, the EAA and various local chapters. Are any of them better or worse than any of the others? << I attended the Alexander Aeroplane (now Aircraft Spruce East) basic sheet metal course. It was a bit rushed - but I did get to touch, feel, and use just about every tool needed to build an RV. IMHO it was worth it...it gave me the confidence to know I can build one of these things. Rob (landscaping the new house, then the workshop gets built!). ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack (was Wiring in wings)
> >>But... what about >>this hypotetical safety issue. > >I found a working Whelen single source power pack for $10.00 at an estate >sale, which sort of commited me to this type of installation. In my case, I >feel I will address the problem by running the high voltage behind the spar >(vs. under the fuel tank baffle), enclosing it in a sealed conduit, and using >shielded cable. > >One thing I do intend to do is install my power pack in the outboard wingtip. > I am concerned about RF with it mounted in the cockpit, and think that the >high pitched noise emitted by these things is distracting. > > Does thsi mean you will have a low voltage wire running from your instument panel to the wing tip mounted stobe power pack and then a high voltage shielded wire from the powerpack all the way to the opposite wing tip? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack (was Wiring in wings)
> Yes, legality. The 12 joule units are only legal on older >aircraft. They do no meet the newer specs. If you intend to >fly at night you will need to use the 20 joule unit(s). > > Chris Are you saying that the unit that Van sells ( Lighting Option System 2, Whelen A490 producing 12 joule) is not legal for night flight? If so, I know of at least 4 Rv's in my area that are illegal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack
>I always thought that the primary reason for using the power supplies out >at the wing tips was to eliminate long runs of high voltage and thereby >reduce RF interference and electrical noise. The delta costs for the two >power supply system over the single is ~$100 so it is worth thinking about. Unless these units are not legal for night flight as Chris has stated. Using two units which produce 34 joule units would double the cost of a single unit. > >The question I have, is there really a noise problem if the single power >supply system is installed correctly, i.e., properly shielded and grounded >wire, etc? I am very interested in this also. The fuel/spark issue I believe can be minimized by enclosing the shieled high voltage wire in a conduit behind the main spar. Then the issue becomes noise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack (fwd)
> > Also, all my grounds (except for nav lights), go back to > single ground bus (actually 3 busses for convience of wiring). > This prevents 'ground loops' which can also cause problems. > Herman Where did you locate these and how are they made? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Re: Spring back dimple dies
You wrote- >When I got home, sure enough, almost all of my dimples showed some stretching >in the area around the rivit head. So now I am thinking do I need a $39 dead >blow hammer from Cleaveland (8 or 10 oz.)? Also, Chris uses what looks like a >tap hammer for his .0016 skins. > >Shelby in Nashville. Shelby- I tried the rubber mallet route and found I couldn't get my dimples to look anything like the ones done with the squeezer. So I tried my ball peen hammer (probably about 8 oz) and found it does a super job with just moderate tap or two. It seems to me that I can actually feel through the hammer handle when the dimple is completed. I have the Avery dies and C tool. IMO you really don't really need a deadblow hammer. My impression is that they are for when you are really pounding away and don't want the thing to bounce back. However, if you decide you want one, you might check Harbor Freight; the flyer I got a few days ago lists the one lb. version for $8.99. They don't list anything lighter but I think it would be easy enough to control one of that size. Bill /```|`\ /| _ _ _ _ / | \ || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` || `//`````````````\\`````````` \| // \\ _//_ _\\_ ( _`: ( _`: ````` ````` Husband and Father Mathematics Teacher Airplane Builder - working on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Angle Of Attack Indicator
I just recieved a reply back from a letter I wrote to Dr. Lyle Powell ( the one mentioned in the 1979 Sport Aviation Article, they misspelled his name). He provided me with a different arrangement than the one in the 1979 article. He mounts a second pitot tube, 1/4 " like the one provided in the RV Kits, behind the real pitot extending below the real pitot. It is mounted as to face 20 degrees forward from vertical or 70 degrees from horizonal ( horizonal being the position of your real pitot). He hooks this up to a second airspeed indicator with a modified face (1 to 12 or whatever). The indicator is placed high on the panel so it is easily viewed by your peripheral vision during takeoff and landing. He calibrates his by adjusting the angle of the second pitot so that stall is at 2 o'clock, Vx is about 5 and Vy about 7 and high cruise between 11-12. This is alot simpler than the 1979 Sport Aviation version and he claims is the "best arrangement". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: <Jim=Preston%303FS_DOT%Whiteman(at)szl.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 305FS/DOT, Whiteman
AFB, 975-2968)
Subject: Schoolin'?
Mark, I attended the Skystruck seminar in Oshkosh last summer (just prior to the "big show"). I would recommend it wholeheartedly...Ken Scott from Van's was the primary instructor; John Monnett and his wife Betty were the hosts, and outstanding ones they were, too. Everything was provided, though they recommend you bring your own tools if you have them. We built several small projects to see what cutting, grinding, dimpling, and riveting were like. We had a little info on how to read plans, etc. I guess the biggest thing I got out of the class was that this building thing is not brain surgery; it really boosted my confidence. The only thing that wasn't covered, and which really should have been, was "How do I convince my wife that an RV is something I really need?" Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Schoolin'?
Text item: WELL, YOU'RE OFF ON THE WRONG FOOT ALREADY. IT SHOULDN'T BE "I" REALLY NEED THIS RV4. "WE" NEED THIS RV4. I'M SO BLESSED, MY WIFE HAS ALWAYS SUPPORTED ME IN ALL MY HAIR BRAIN SCHEMES, WHETHER IT BE HOT RODS, DRAGSTERS, BOATS, GUNS, WHATEVER. GUESS THAT'S WHY WE'LL HAVE 26 YEARS MARRIED IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS. MAKE HER PART OF IT. LET HER HELP BUILD IT. THESE GIRLS HAVE A LOT MORE TALENT THAN WE "GUYS" GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR. Mark, I attended the Skystruck seminar in Oshkosh last summer (just prior to the "big show"). I would recommend it wholeheartedly...Ken Scott from Van's was the primary instructor; John Monnett and his wife Betty were the hosts, and outstanding ones they were, too. Everything was provided, though they recommend you bring your own tools if you have them. We built several small projects to see what cutting, grinding, dimpling, and riveting were like. We had a little info on how to read plans, etc. I guess the biggest thing I got out of the class was that this building thing is not brain surgery; it really boosted my confidence. The only thing that wasn't covered, and which really should have been, was "How do I convince my wife that an RV is something I really need?" Jim Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Subject: re: RV-List: Schoolin'? From: <szl.afres.af.mil!Jim=Preston%303FS_DOT%Whiteman(at)matronics.com> (Maj, 305F S/DOT, Whiteman AFB, 975-2968) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 14:33:06 CST tel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09503 for Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Ron Caldwell <74504.1365(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: What Can I Do???
4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building my new garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of tools from Avery. Everything was there excepting one bad of hardware (bag616) which has the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 hours into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I couldn't believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I have called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know what I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder or Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Ron Caldwell RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com (Henson, Eric)
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
On 3/7/96 John Morrissey Wrote: ---------- >BTW the nicest trim tabs I've seen use small end ribs made out of scrap >instead of trying to bend the ends of the tab over to form the end of the >trim tab. Wowzer! Bending those Mickey Mouse tabs is precisely what has cost me an otherwise beautiful L. Elevator & Skin. Manys the time I have growled about finding a better way. Sounds like John did my leg work for me. Good job John, I'll give you a list of other nagging problems that seek to turn my hair white. In the meantime if anyone could give a quick overview of the above mentioned construction method I would be most greatfull. On the ones that have employed the end rib method, do they do both the elevator & the tab in the same manner? I imagine that by doing this in this manner you are then at risk of mangling the end ribs instead of putting your whole l. elevator at risk. This sure makes better sense to me, I notice that on a lot of nice RV's I see at airshows it looks like the builder just squeaked by on the trim tab. There's got to be a better way (growl). Thanks for the support guys. Eric Henson A wing by spring ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
Ron, The first thing I would recommend is something you don't want to hear while in your present frame of mind, but sit back, relax, if nothing else, dream a little of the future flights. Van's gives excellent support, but they are like the rest of us, some things they can't control. This is the first of what may be many frustrations you will encounter. You could order the alum. angle and make the brackets like in the older kits, it would keep your hands busy. But you can probably find something else to do in the meantime. Even order a sheet of the steel and make the brackets. Just yesterday, I spent the day with a man starting on his kit. His frustration was how bad is acceptable, how perfect must it be. All I could do was show and tell what worked for me. His immediate problem was a little akin to yours. He had measured and drilled holes for the brackets. The bracket holes and his measured holes did not align exactly. He was blaming Vans for being off on measurements. When I told him he shouldn't have drilled one without the other as a guide, he admitted it. When I showed him that by drilling the 3/32 hole through both would align them, he understood. He had started to order and rebuild the spar! But they are OK now, and he has saved the price of the extra stuff, and accepts that common sense and reading the plans/construction manual will help in the future. Relax, enjoy it, frustration and all. John D I think he has relaxed a little and is pressing on. >Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be >appreciated. > >Ron Caldwell >RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Strobe Power Pack
Rich, The other day I listed the answer to "what is The Coat hanger antenna?" The article, in Oct 92 Sport Aviation, states "I have Aeroflash strobe power supplies mounted in each wingtip. Although the whip passes close to the high voltage lead from the power supply to the strobe I experience no interference." Then it goes on to say "Those with central strobe power supplies that have high voltage leads down the entire length of the wing may have a pulsing interference problem if the coax is routed near the strobe wire very far." Don't know if this helps you are not, thought I would pass it on for what it's worth. John D >The question I have, is there really a noise problem if the single power >supply system is installed correctly, i.e., properly shielded and grounded >wire, etc? Would there be a RFI problem if I installed a wing tip comm >antenna and ran the RG58 down the same conduit as the high voltage strobe >wire? > >-- Rich, RV4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
My advice: RELAX. If you can't get through a little thing like this you'll NEVER be able to build an airplane. You should be thankful that something like missing hinge brackets DOES stop you -- in the old days there would have been enough more to keep you busy you probably wouldn't have even noticed it. But I'll bet you can find something to do if you look hard enough. You can probably do some stuff on the control surfaces, like lay out and drill the stiffeners and such. Now and then you run into problems like this. That's just the way the world works. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: RV-6 Cabin heat
>Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:58:55 >To: ChaniK(at)aol.com >From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-6 Cabin heat > > >>The RC servo is actually better suited for an autopilot system, where it >>has to make small, fast changes all the time. Unfortunately, I don't like >>the idea from a safety point of view. I went through a couple of dozen >>servos when I flew RC, and they tended to fail unpredictably, often >>failing *hard-over*, which can happen if the little potentiometer inside >>them gets dirty or has a broken wire. Imagine if you used an RC servo to >>power a servo tab on your aileron and it failed hard over. You would have >>to override the servo tab by brute force til you landed. Or whatever. >> >>The RC servos I have owned were really neat, compact devices, but *not* >>aircraft quality IMHO. > > > >Dear Empire; > >The above comment was made recently on the RV List. Any comments regarding your system? What happens when they fail? > > Below is the reply I recieved from the above inquiry, These are the folks who are offering the $700 three axis autopilot which uses RC Servos Ross Mickey >Since the autopilot has limited "trim" authority over the aircraft, a runaway >servo still does not require great effort to overcome. In that sense, our AP >is very safe. Many RC servos are of low quality, but then again they start >at $11.50 each retail. At that price, you can be sure that only the cheapest >components have been used. Many Korean and Chinese servos fall into this >category. We use Japanese Futaba servos with metal gears that cost over $60 >retail. Futaba has the best reputation in the industry for quality. Sure, >there are crappy servos out there just as there are crappy kitplanes, but >some of these RC people fly nice ducted fan jets and such worth over $1,500. > They tend to rely on the good equipment and almost never have a problem. > Actually, most RC applications are a much nastier environment than real >planes in terms of vibration and the occasional severe impulse load when they >crash. The last point to consider is that these "good" servos are mass >produced according to ISO 9001 quality standards which is difficult to do >with a custom unit manufactured in the small quantities that the kitplane >industry has demand for. > > Best Regards, -Kurt Kuhlmann, Empire > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Stuart Fraley <swfraley(at)alpha.comsource.net>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
Start something else. Maybe the forward spar of the HS or the VS spar. There's plenty to do yet. I haven't suffered the backorder problem, but it does happen. Stuart Fraley RV-6 23899 Left elevator/Trim tab >4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage >kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building my new >garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of tools from >Avery. Everything was there excepting one bad of hardware (bag616) which has >the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 hours >into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I couldn't >believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I have >called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't >received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know what >I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually >provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same >problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder or >Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be >appreciated. > >Ron Caldwell >RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: ground bus (was Strobe Power Pack)
Date: Mar 08, 1996
> > > > > Also, all my grounds (except for nav lights), go back to > > single ground bus (actually 3 busses for convience of wiring). > > This prevents 'ground loops' which can also cause problems. > > Herman > > > Where did you locate these and how are they made? > All this is on a RV-4. One main ground bus was located behing the inst panel by the supports I made for the radio stack. Most of the ground wires went to this ground bus. A second ground bus was located down by the belly in the area between the pilots legs where the battery goes. I put it by the boost pump. This was used to ground the boost pump, the strobe PS, the fuel guage senders, etc. that were located down in the bottom part of the fuselage. The main ground bus was a strap of copper that had holes drilled and had #8 brass screws inserted and soldered in. I think it had about 10 screws in it. All ground wires from radio's, instruments, etc went back to this bus. The bus is wired to the negative side of the battery. The second gound bus was bought from radio shack. Don't remember the part number but it is plastic with screws to attach your solderless connectors to it. It has jumper plates on one side that tie all the connections together. Again, wired back to neg side of the battery. The purpose of a seperate ground bus (or 2 in my case) is to prevent 'ground loops' by tieing all the grounds to a common point. The only items that were not routed back to one of these two ground busses were the nav lights and the taxi & landing light. I just grounded them to the rib's out in the wings. I could not see routing seperate ground wires all the way out to the wing tips and these items are not sensitive to ground loop problems. I think Tony B. wrote an article on how to make a ground bus. One way I think he showed was to simply flatten some copper water tubing and then use the brass screws in it. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 08, 1996
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
> 4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage > kit. --snip-- (steam)! Ron, No doubt Van's is doing everything they can to make the back order. They have the hottest kit on the planet and it shows. I waited, and waited, and waited for my wings. But I'm building the finest all purpose airplane there is, and the other RV builders I've met are some of the best people around. Keep the faith. Vent all you need to on the phone and on the list, but hold out for the parts. What else would you build, a Thorp? Please! B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
>4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage >kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building my new >garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of tools from >Avery. Everything was there excepting one bad of hardware (bag616) which has >the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 hours >into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I couldn't >believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I have >called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't >received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know what >I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually >provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same >problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder or >Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be >appreciated. > >Ron Caldwell >RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). Ron: Yes, sometimes Van's is slow. It is a very popular kit. If you send the kit back, you'll miss out on a really great airplane and won't get to be a member of a very "exclusive" club (eat your hearts out, Glasair builders). You could fabricate the HS skeleton. You can start on the rudder and elevators. You can layout and drill on stiffner angles. Remember, you'll need to fit the elevators and rudder to the HS & VS so you know where to locate rod ends. You can always use the time to really study the manual. Really plan ahead so you don't go too far when working on the elevators and rudder. Also, I'm sure others will respond. Collect as many ideas as you can from other builders before you go further. (I don't want to give you any "bum" info.) Bob Skinner RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Allan W. Mojzisik" <prober(at)iwaynet.net>
Subject: What Can I Do???
Date: Mar 08, 1996
------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0D41.5B7A5600 Ron, I don't know if you want to do this but I got a complete empanage kit = last October....It's not predrilled or anything but I think it should be = pretty much the same as what you have or at least the parts you need. If = you want e-mail me or call me at 614-890-6301 and I'll ship you my parts = if you will have Van ship me yours. Like i said in my intro to the = list, I can't start on mine until next sept. or oct. so that I can stay = married. If my kit is incomplete it'll just make it easier for me not to = cheat......... let me know if you want the parts.=20 Al Mojzisik prober(at)iwaynet.net You never have enough good tools only too many cheap ones! ---------- From: Ron Caldwell[SMTP:compuserve.com!74504.1365(at)matronics.com] Sent: Friday, March 08, 1996 5:21 PM Subject: RV-List: What Can I Do??? 4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A = empennage kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building = my new garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of = tools from Avery. Everything was there excepting one bad of hardware (bag616) = which has the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 = hours into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I = couldn't believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I = have called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still = haven't received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't = know what I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the = same problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the = Rudder or Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations = would be appreciated. Ron Caldwell RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Reply: Hinge Brackets Missing
>4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage >kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building my new >garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of tools from >Avery. Everything was there excepting one bag of hardware (bag616) which has >the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 hours >into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I couldn't >believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I have >called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't >received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know what >I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually >provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same >problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder or >Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be >appreciated. > >Ron Caldwell >RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). Ron- It's been a while since I built my empennage and that was before the pre-punched kits but from what I remember, you won't get too far on your elevators or rudder before you need the horizontal and vertical stabs completed to fit the rod end bearings of these control surfaces. Maybe the new kits are different. In general, I think you can do anything that doesn't require those hinge brackets. If these things aren't already done I would think you could cut stiffener angles, drill to skins, dimple and back rivet, straighten ribs, fabricate the skin clamps, etc. I can understand your frustration. First of all, from what I've seen Van's runs a first class operation and they handle very promptly anything that is within their control. Unfortunately, like most businesses, they must rely on their suppliers for parts and the suppliers are not always up to snuff. When I got my empennage kit it was missing the rod end bearings, but from what I understand, Van's didn't have them because no one else (Aircraft Spruce, Wicks, etc.) had them either! But it's not just Van's either. I just recently waited almost 4 months for a heated pitot tube because the manufacturer kept promising them to the vendor but didn't come through. In the meantime there was little I could do because I wanted to fit this in the wing leading edge which I had to complete before building the fuel tanks! It would be nice to always be able to anticipate WELL IN ADVANCE what you might need and order it early but unfortunately this doesn't always work for various reasons. IMHO it takes patience for most of us to build and airplane and it's something we either have or must develop to be successful at such the project. I think many times before your first taxi test you'll experience these same frustrations but if the postings I've read on this list are indicative of all RV builders it will be well worth it! BTW, if you really get stuck for things to do, you can always a) study the plans, study the plans, study the plans, b) download the RV archives and search engine and check all the things you might want to do with your plane, c) read Tony Bingelis' books, d) visit Hovan's home page (download Frank Justice's instructions while there) e) if you're married, get a few projects off your wife's wish list now so you have more time to work on the really important project when the parts arrive Bill /```|`\ /| _ _ _ _ / | \ || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` || `//`````````````\\`````````` \| // \\ _//_ _\\_ ( _`: ( _`: ````` ````` Husband and Father Mathematics Teacher Airplane Builder - working on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: "John E. Brick" <p01315(at)psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Seattle visit
Joel, call me when you get in. John Brick 846-2617 > >Greetings, >I'm interested in visiting builders in the Seatle-Tacoma area on Monday, >March 11th. I'll be staying at the Sheraton Hotel in Tacoma, arriving around >12:30 PM. I've purchased most of the necessary tools and I'm setting up my >shop to start building an RV-8 when they're available. I'm interested in >everything from shop layouts to finished products. > >Joel Harding >AB320 FLYER @aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Zilik(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: dual wing building
>This idea of building both wings at the same time seems to be pretty >popular. To do this, do you just build two jigs and do Step 1 right, then >Step 1 left, etc.? Or do most people use the back-to-back jig that was in >the RVator about a year ago? > >Stuart Fraley RV-6 >Farting around with the trim tab I am using the back to back jig. The main spar support for one wing is about 12" long while the other wings support is 38 inches. This gives me about 30 inches between wings. The only problem with this setup is that I must duck under the main support to get between the wings. This does get old after awhile. Problem number two with building both wings at the same time is that you can make the same mistake twice without knowing about it until it is to late. At least both wings are the same. If you have the room (I don't) I would suggest building two jigs as the wings could be placed farther apart. Gary Zilik RV-6A 22993 (lots of rivets in those wings!!!) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Zilik(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
After I built my horz stab (not pre-punched) and started on my elevators I found that I had measured wrong by 1/2 inch on the placement of the center hinge bracket on both sides of the hs. This was no problem as I just moved the rod bearings on the elevator the same amount and all was well. The hinge joints are one of those things that you custom build to fit. I would be a little worried about the placing the elevator or rudder rod end bearings without the horz stab or VS to locate them by. Of course if your rudder and elevators are pre-punched this would not be a problem and I would start building them right away. I have found that when I have messed up a part and had to order a new one, that their is never a lack of things that need to be done. Cut all your stiffner and pre drill them (or do they come drilled?). Read the plans, make a game plan, and then read the plans again. Gary Zilik ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: PAUL_ROSALES(at)prodigy.com (MR PAUL A ROSALES)
Subject: RE:Wings, Wife, Deluxe Kit
-- [ From: Paul A. Rosales * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Hey Ed, Thanks for the compliment about my wife Victoria but I have to further comment on my partner of 17 years. She not only has two jobs; she bought me (paid in full) the entire airframe and threw in the Avery Deluxe Tool kit to boot! And finally, she's running the rivet gun while I buck (they say women have a better feel!). Sometimes I think she wants this plane more than me! We can't build our plane fast enough together! I've been told by numerous RVers in our EAA Chapter 49 that we're already months and months ahead in just 16 hours (it took only 2 hours to skin the other leading edge). This is definitely a 'kick in the pants' for us to help move our project in the fast forward mode. I'll keep you posted on my progress as we get further along. We are going to Vegas for a wedding this weekend so no progress will occur, but we'll be starting the tanks next weekend. As far as the double jig, it sounded all and well to me so I tried it, and I'm finding it's working out great for us. My parts get moved from 'storage' twice as fast, and my Fast Build Box from Van's is nearly empty! I can guarantee you that you will be elated with your kit when you receive it and start building! Hurry up and wait!?! Paul_Rosales(at)prodigy.com RV-6A, N628PV Lancaster, CA P.S. The 628 comes from my late Father-in-law's birthday of June 28th (6/28). His small inheritance is what my wife used to get us started. He always wanted me to have an airplane! PS ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 07, 1996
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: Vert. Stab wiring
I'm getting ready to close my vertical stabilizer. I'm planning to put the 3-position Whelen lights on the wing tips. I'm also planning GPS rather that VOR. Is there any reason to run wires (or pull strings) through the vertical stab? If not, would it better to not drill holes through the ribs? thanks, Russ Nichols russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: ground bus (was Strobe Power Pack)
> > > > > > > > Also, all my grounds (except for nav lights), go back to > > > single ground bus (actually 3 busses for convience of wiring). > > > This prevents 'ground loops' which can also cause problems. > > > Herman > > > > > > Where did you locate these and how are they made? > > > > All this is on a RV-4. One main ground bus was located behing the > inst panel by the supports I made for the radio stack. > Most of the ground wires went to this ground bus. > > A second ground bus was located down by the belly in the area > between the pilots legs where the battery goes. I put it by the > boost pump. This was used to ground the boost pump, the strobe PS, > the fuel guage senders, etc. that were located down in the bottom > part of the fuselage. > > > Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas > mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com > This is not a plastic airplane. A metal airplane is one big ground bus. Negative return wires for DC power generally just add weight. Return lines for avionic signals may be justified. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: RUSS_NICHOLS(at)fire.ca.gov (RUSS NICHOLS)
Subject: Re: Hs problems
Mike, First, recheck your measurements. If you are sure that your distance between the front and rear spars (at the center) is correct, go ahead and allow the end of the front spar to move back on the tip rib. I think mine was about 3/4" toward the rear spar (as opposed to Van's numbers). I also had to remove the flanges from the front spar and fabricate new ones. I had the opposite problem. My front spar pushed the tip ribs out slightly. I know all too well about rechecking measurements. I originally placed the HS-405 ribs (the center ribs that are at an angle) too far inboard. I measured from the wrong side of the rib. That "little" mistake made all of my measurements come out wrong by "just a little". It also would have played havoc with mounting the HS to the fuse. That just happens to be the place the mounting bolts go... Keep pluggin' Russ Nichols russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RV-List: Hs problems Date: 3/8/96 3:47 AM Hi! First off, thanks to all list members who have given their advice on previous postings! We have progressed quite well - to the point where the HS is mounted in the jig - with all ribs riveted to the rear spar (except for the tip ribs of course) and end ribs are bolted in place. When we added the front spar, we noted that it is about 3/8" short of touching the tip ribs (on either side). I think this has been repaired by cutting the factory flange end off and cutting & bending a piece of aluminium to replace this by joining the spar to the tip rib. Anyway - we now have a situation where there is a 3/32" gap between the center rib and the front spar when the front spar is lifted so that it meets at the correct point we marked on the tip rib (7 5/8" from bottom spar? as I recall). Should the center rib to main spar junction be shimmed to position it properly? We found that when this was done, and the front center rib was added, it was 3/32" higher than the ribs on either side [not good for skinning!]. We could also just let the front spar meet the end rib at a lower point ... Clearly we need to make some adjustments - what sort of latitude is there for changing dimensions on the plan? - will this result in problems down the road? Does it sound like we are being too "perfectionist" in our approach - at this rate - it will take a *very* long time. Thanks in advance for any help! Cheers, MIKE 3M wheel only *slightly* used... ________________________________________________________________________________
From: K8DO(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: wiring conduit
Electrical wire does not 'push' well, especially through small tubing with bends, etc... I suggest that you measure the length of the tubing required, plus a bit, and cut it off... with the precut tubing out straight on the bench/floor use an electricians fish tape, or stiff wire, etc. to pull a nylon cord through the tubing and tape the cord at each end of the tube to secure it... then install the tube in the plane... when you are ready for wiring, use the nylon cord to pull the wire bundle through the tube...always include a fresh length of nylon cord as a part of the wire bundle, for pulling the inevitable wiring additions later... Denny k8do(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: Lewis <lewisjw(at)hqsocom.af.mil>
From: lewisjw
Subject: Frustrated - No HS Hinge Bracket Ron Caldwell wrote on March 8, 96 "no HS hinge bracket, very frustrated, need advice". Don't spend too much mental energy worrying over something you can't control. We all accept Van's best effort because it's good value. If you want everything now and perfect, order a GlasStar or someone else's $80 K kit. If you need to move ahead fast, order your wing kit now. Better yet, stock up on some good will with your wife by taking her out to dinner and a movie. Good luck. Joe Lewis, RV6, emp, Tampa Bay ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: Steve Mayer <72652.670(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: What Can I Do???
Ron, How complete is the pre-punched emp kit? Do you have to file down the HS609 edges, mark and drill the holes in it? When I ran into a wait on a part on my VS, I passed the time by deburring other parts, fabricating my HS410 plate, and generally keeping busy. I think you could build up the forward HS spar assembly without interfering with any other operations. If it isn't done already, you might fabricate the VS doubler and trim the flange of your VS603. Others have suggested reading and studying the plans and manual, etc.. I find that every time I view the Orndorff videos I see something that I hadn't noticed before. Steve Mayer RV4 empennage ----- Forwarded Message ----- FROM: Ron Caldwell, INTERNET:74504.1365(at)compuserve.com DATE: 3/8/96, 7:57 PM Re: RV-List: What Can I Do??? 4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building my new garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of tools from Avery. Everything was there excepting one bad of hardware (bag616) which has the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 hours into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I couldn't believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I have called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know what I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder or Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Ron Caldwell RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: Stan Blanton <75472.372(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ground Bus(Was Strobe Power Pack )
>Where did you locate these (ie. ground bus) and how are they made? An excellent source for a ground bus is B&C Specialty Products (316)283-8000. They have one that uses PIDG spade terminal connections. Stan Blanton RV-6 Fuselage skeleton ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: Schoolin'?
> The only thing that wasn't covered, and which really should have been, >was "How do I convince my wife that an RV is something I really need?" Does your wife have any family that are far away? Most of my wife's family lives about 800 road miles (600 air miles) away. Gee honey, we could visit your parents in about 3.5 hours... Bingo! -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
>called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't >received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know >what >I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually >provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same >problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder >or >Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would >be >appreciated. I too, get a little fatigued with Van's sometimes. Their operation is a bit chaotic and it seems to me that they are trying to rapidly expand without hiring enough staff to do the job. The people that work there seem harried most of the time. This said, they do a pretty good job with the amount of staff they have. It seems to me that it wouldn't take 3+ months to get a finishing kit (can you guess what *I'M* waiting on?) if they weren't trying to set up a kit-building operation overseas. The best reccomendation I have is to order EARLY. Maybe a month or two before you need it. This doesn't help much if you're waiting on hinge brackets though. You can do a little work on the rudder and elevator spars, but you need to match up the holes in the spars for the rod end bearings with....... you guessed it, the hinge brackets. Good luck, we've all been there, I'm told that it's worth it... :) -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: Reply: Hinge Brackets Missing
From: snoopyar(at)usa.pipeline.com (DAVI HOWARD)
Ron, I agree with Bill. Don't give up on Van's. I am well into my first wing and to date have had no problems what so ever with Vans Aircraft. They have excellent customer service and I usually have any parts I order within 3 or 4 days. Its unfortunate that you are having this problem right at the begining, but I think others will agree that sending the kit back is a very bad idea. Give Van's a chance to prove them selves and I don't think you will be disapointed. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Schoolin'?
You wrote: > > >> The only thing that wasn't covered, and which really should have been, >>was "How do I convince my wife that an RV is something I really need?" > >Does your wife have any family that are far away? Most of my wife's family >lives about 800 road miles (600 air miles) away. Gee honey, we could visit >your parents in about 3.5 hours... Bingo! > >-- Ed Bundy > Cheez, that sounds a lot better than my ploy. My wife went on a cruise to Alaska with her sister (to fill in for a friend who had backed out) and I have told her how we can go back in the plane and see everything at our pace. 'Course, my wife's mother lives a mile from us, so I would have to REALLY work on that angle! Bill Costello -- ___ _____________________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \ X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \____________________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: "Michael A. Hartmann" <hartmann(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: When To Order Wing Kit?
> >1. What are some of the build times it has taken for the wings?? In RV-building units, my first wing including both flaps, both ailerons, and fabricating mirror-image parts for the other wing took about twice as long as the empennage. The second wing took about 2/3 the time of the first wing. I spent a lot of time re-learning how I did things - if you have the space to build both wings simultaneously it will seem slower, but go faster. >2. How big is the Fuse Box(es)? It takes up about the same floor space as the main wing box, but is a little more than twice as thick. Mine sat on the floor with the wing box on top until I finished the wings - now the wing box is serving as storage under the fuselage box. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: n21pe(at)ix.netcom.com (Peter B. Mortensen)
Subject: Seattle visit
Joel, you wrote: Greetings, I'm interested in visiting builders in the Seatle-Tacoma area on Monday, March 11th. I'll be staying at the Sheraton Hotel in Tacoma, arriving around 12:30 PM. I've purchased most of the necessary tools and I'm setting up my shop to start building an RV-8 when they're available. I'm interested in everything from shop layouts to finished products. Joel Harding AB320 FLYER @aol.com Hi, I am building an RV-4 in Renton, WA which is about 45 minutes drive north of Tacoma. Tail & wings are done and fuse is out of jig. Do you have access to a car or do you need to be picked up? Call me on Monday when you get in. Peter B. Mortensen (206) 228-4863 _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Shelby1138(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: Building Both Wings at Same
I am building both of mine at the same time and the concept of doubling your mistakes should be considered. I messed up the attach angles on both wings(because I made the mistake on one wing turned around and made it again on the other). Now, I am still working on both wings, but at a little more of a stagger. Also, thanks to all concerning my dimpling technique. I'll report on my progress. Shelby Smith in Nashville. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: "Michael A. Hartmann" <hartmann(at)sound.net>
Subject: Re: Tool Questions (sprayer, die grinder)
>Although more expensive, would a sprayer with a remote cup (2 5' hoses from cup to spray nozzle/handle) be a better choice? I could see advantages in inverted spraying and weight to hold. However, would the cleanup be worse? > Hi Kevin, I've tried everything from the rechargable paint cans from Harbor Freight to a Croix HVLP setup and my main concern now is ease of cleanup. The Croix does a great job and I'll probably use it to paint the finish coat, but it is a pain to clean. For priming I have been using a Dokken type Zip Stripe gun modified to use 5 oz paper cups for the small parts. Real easy to clean, and lays down plenty of paint, but it doesn't do a good enough job for finish work. The remote cup you mention might have some advantages on the big jobs, but I doubt you'd like the added time and effort needed to clean it for all those small batches of small parts. >Is a smaller or larger die grinder preferred? I could see that the small one would be lighter, but harder to keep steady (and your hands are closer to the wheel). I started using a Dremel tool (no kidding) and switched to a die grinder because the Dremel was getting so hot - it was doing the job just fine. I now have a full-sized die grinder that I almost never use, and a "mini" that I like so well I've thought of getting a spare in case it ever quits working. You can get a mini grinder like mine at Payless Cashways for under $20. It comes with both 1/8" and 1/4" collets - I use the 1/8" a lot with 1" Dremel style cutoff wheels. The tool with the small wheels is very easy to control but is capable of cutting faster than I can think. I use the 1/4" collet with the 1" or 2" ScotchBrite wheels from Avery to smooth the cuts, deburr edges, and shape inside corners. The 2" wheels are especially great for cleaning up lightening holes in ribs. After the first couple of ribs a groove is worn into the wheel which helps keep it on-track and deburrs both surfaces simultaneously. Cleaning up all of the ribs for a wing took about 30 minutes with this tool. I wouln't be without it. See you later - Mike hartmann(at)sound.net RV6A in progress ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: scottg(at)villagenet.com (Scott Gesele)
Subject: Re: Vert. Stab wiring
> > I'm getting ready to close my vertical stabilizer. I'm planning to > put the 3-position Whelen lights on the wing tips. I'm also planning > GPS rather that VOR. Is there any reason to run wires (or pull > strings) through the vertical stab? If not, would it better to not > drill holes through the ribs? > > thanks, > > Russ Nichols > russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov > During emp. construction, I closed my VS, and left the fiberglass off. While rigging the tail, I decided to put the strobe and nav antenna up in the VS. There was no problem drilling the holes or inserting snap bushing, even in the center rib. Go ahead and close it now. If you want to add electrical components up in the VS later, it will not be a problem as long as the fibreglass is not rivetted on yet. -Scott N506RV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: scottg(at)villagenet.com (Scott Gesele)
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
First thing, calm down there will be times that building the RV is frustrating. We have all been there. I was in the exact same position as you in the spring of '93. There was a rod-end bearing shortage that prevented me from mounting the hinge brackets. I lost about three weeks building due to this. When Van's got them in-stock, he shipped them NEXT DAY to me, at his expense ( I had requested next day and offered to pay for it myself). This is because I live in New York and UPS ground takes over a week. In your post you said that "They still haven't received these brackets from their supplier." Well it doesn't seem to me that this problem is completely Van's fault. Second, learn from this experience. Van's published kit lead times in the RVator. In the future, order kits so they arrive one month prior to the time you expect to need them. This covers your butt on back-orders. With propper planning on YOUR part, three month lead times should not be any concern. Enough on this, I'll get down from my soapbox and back into the shop to finish rigging the left aileron. Happy building !!!! -Scott N506RV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: RC Servo Reliability (was RV-6 cabin heat)
On Fri, 8 Mar 1996 rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com wrote: > >>The RC servos I have owned were really neat, compact devices, but *not* > >>aircraft quality IMHO. > > > >Dear Empire; > > > >The above comment was made recently on the RV List. Any comments regarding > your system? What happens when they fail? > > Below is the reply I recieved from the above inquiry, These are the folks > who are offering the $700 three axis autopilot which uses RC Servos > I think they make a fair arguement. Certainly many of the servos I have seen fail have been of the "cheap" variety. Only time will tell how reliable these autopilots will be. Frankly, I am considering buying one myself, but I still have some reservations about the design concept. In a more conventional design, like the Navaid Devices single axis autopilot (I havn't seen the 2 axis version, so I can't comment on that), the trim force is applied to the control pushrod through an electromagnetic clutch. This has several fail-safe features. First, the clutch can only deliver limited torque before it starts slipping, so it can always be overridden by the pilot. As soon as the pilot recognizes a problem, he turns off the autopilot, or pulls the breaker, and the clutch disengages completely. Now he has full control of a normally trimmed aircraft. In the RC-servo-tab design, the trim force is applied directly to a servo tab on the aileron. If the servo fails hard over, or ever partway over, that tab is probably staying where it is although aerodynamic forces might center it a bit, depending on the resistance of the gear train. I would want to have some way of trimming out this constant roll force while I made a landing at the nearest airfield. Perhaps the stock Van's manual aileron trim would do as a backup. With the clutch drive concept, once the autopilot is disconnected, you can continue on your merry way without even retrimming. Like I said, the RC-servo system is a neat idea, but does make some compromises. If it proves reliable, it is obviously the best value for the money, bar none. Cheers, Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: n21pe(at)ix.netcom.com (Peter B. Mortensen)
Subject: Primer
To list members: When I started my RV-4, I researched corrosion protection methods. I asked my technical counsellor in the EAA what the best epoxy primer was. He had designed and built several homebuilts (including a twin). He told me he had no idea since he had never primered anything! Well, I wanted my airplane to be the best possible. Cessnas are not primered inside either but I don't want a Cessna. To me the whole idea of homebuilding is to make something better. I firmly believe that homebuilders should have higher standards than "the way Cessna does it". The term "quick and dirty" has no place in our vocabulary! I considered self-etching primer but I wondered where does the etching acid go? Where does the dirt go? Also, I had seen newly completed RVs which used self etching primer that was flaking off with the bare metal showing through. So, I settled on the Alumi-prep, alodine, and two part epoxi primer method. I primer both sides of everything. That is a lot of work! I think though it is well worth it since if you ever accidentally scratch the metal, the scratch usually will not go through the primer. It is tough as nails. After several years of working, I began to wonder if all my work was worth doing. Then someone in the EAA purchased a 20 year old experimental made by the tech counsellor. When they checked it out they found white powder falling down under the instrument panel. There was lots of corrosion up under there. They decided to replace the turtle deck and after drilling out only one rivet, they were able to peel the whole thing off. All the other rivets were corroded through and they were only held in by the paint! The alclad aluminum was all white on the inside! About a month later the story broke about the 727 in Hawaii which became a "convertible" due to stress cracks caused by many cycles of pressurization but exaserbated by CORROSION! I now know I am doing the right thing primering the inside of my RV. It is worth the peace of mind to know it will be safe for many years to come. Frankly, I am amazed when I see people building planes with no primer on the inside and justifying it with "alclad" and weight savings. I guess building airplanes is like everything else; you get out what you put in and everyone's standards are different. Peter ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: Ron Caldwell <74504.1365(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: What Can I Do?
Many thanks to all who commented on my plea for help with regard to my backordered hinge brackets. Perhaps I was looking for sympathy or moral support. I had considered working ahead on other portions of the tail but others had advised me of possible problems. But your comments have now convinced me that there is plenty to do. I will try to relax and have more patience and just enjoy the trip. I appreciate everyones suggestions and help, I feel very forturnate to be associated with so many great people here on the RV List. Ron Caldwell RV6A (Pressing Forward and Upward) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RFlunker(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Emp Done!
I'm putting the emp aside to start working on the wing... Took me six months to get this far, but this is one happy fella. My question for the day is should I do anything special to the surfaces as I put them in storage? I plan to put them in a spare bedroom, so it is a climate controlled area. As you can expect, there are a lot of fingerprints etc on the surfaces. Do I just leave them, or wipe them off with lacquer thinner, or?? You advise is always appreciated. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: RV List WWW Search
Mike and Marcelo, I tried this and for the first time ever, actually got to the rv list and was able to search for something. So this is what the search engine/ftp/archive etc was all about. Thanks for the info on this. The other, I've been trying since I got on here and all to no avail. Thanks again. And yes, it was useful. Sure gives you some reference and what has gone on here since 1990. John D >> http://dunkin.Princeton.EDU/.rvlist/ is a WWW Form that will >> allow you to search through the RV List archives. I haven't >> spent a great deal of time on it, but if you find it useful I'd >> like to hear it. Comments and suggestions are also welcome. >> >> Marcelo - >Mike Kukulski (kukulskim(at)aol.com) >RV-4 N96MK (installing trim cable) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: check list
About a week or so ago, we were talking about some check list to assist in the annual and/or 100 hour inspection. Some one said they would post one. Did I miss it or have they not been posted? I'm starting my annual next week and something in addition to my very informal one might help. Any one out there with one that is handy? John D RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: cockpit lights
Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I'm thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood lights, and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine down on the panel. The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my whole idea is down the drain. Any info regarding? John D RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do?
Ron Caldwell >RV6A (Pressing Forward and Upward) > Atta boy Ron, you got he spirit now! John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: ground bus (was Strobe Power Pack)
>> Where did you locate these and how are they made? Radio Shack has them, cheap and nice looking. They come in either 12 or 24 lug sizes. They are for a ring or open connector (open is much better to work with). I think you buy separately a strip that will connect them all like a bus bar. I've used them, they make a very nice installation. Much better than a daisy looking bolt through the skin. John D ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: Schoolin'?
Matt, Becki and I like to think that our 1 and 2 days workshops are good and our students do also. We also have a starter kit if a workshop is not what you are looking for . Call us at 301-293-1505 to get more info....George & Becki Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Cockpit lights
Anyone know anyhting about light emmiting diodes? I'm thinking about getting some of the J C Whitney third brake light LEDs and working up some lights for the cockpit. Maybe some on the roll bar as 'flood lights' and some under the instru. 'hood', pointed down on the instru. panel as instru. lights. I would want to wire these through my dimmer for brightness control, particularly the ones on the instru. And this brings up my first problem - will a LED dim similar to a reg filament bulb? Any one know the answer to that? Would appreciate info. John D RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
You wrote: > >4 weeks ago today, I received my new pre-punched and pre-trimmed RV6A empennage >kit. I was extremely excited seeing how I had just completed building my new >garage, new workshop, the horiz. stab jig, and had bought $2,000 of tools from >Avery. Everything was there excepting one bad of hardware (bag616) which has >the VS and HS hinge brackets. This bag had been back-ordered. I got 3 hours >into building the HS when it called for the HS hinge brackets. I couldn't >believe that I had just gotten started and now I would have to stop. I have >called Van's four times including just a few minutes ago. They still haven't >received these brackets from their supplier. I'm very upset. I don't know what >I can do at this point. Is this the kind of service that Van's usually >provides??. I'm just about ready to send the kit back. I've got the same >problem trying to build the VS. Would it be OK to start building the Rudder or >Elevators? As you can tell, I'm very frustrated. Any recommendations would be >appreciated. > >Ron Caldwell >RV6A Empennage (Maybe Starting 1997). > > Ron, While your waiting, Fabricate the forward HS spar Stiffener angles, straighten the ribs, (flute) clean up the edges. On the rudder, you could fabricate the stiffeners, layout the stiffeners, prime, and back rivit. There is a lot of things you can do out of sequence. Be patient, It will all come together! Ed Cole Empennage ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
There are always things that you can do when you don't have all of the parts to complete a structure. Don't get discouraged at setbacks like this or you will never finish. Van's depends on suppliers and does a good job overall in getting parts out as fast as possible. I have several items on back order. I just try to work on something else. Keep the faith. The flight at the end will be worth it. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 09, 1996
Subject: Re: Cowl flaps
I used a locking T handle bowden cable available from Wicks or Napa Auto Parts (identical parts) and routed the cable from the panel through the firewall and around the nose gear structure so that I can pull the cowl flap door closed. I am using the space between Vettermans two pipe exhaust system to close the air flow off. The door hinges just aft of the nose gear strut. I have it spring loaded open so that it will actually open past the faired position. This will allow me to get additional cooling on the ground if needed while taxiing on hot days. The lock allows the door to be held in any position with 1/2 turn of the T handle. This is a simple system with nothing to break or fail. There is another advantage to having this setup. I can disconnect the cable from the door and drop it down to get access to the oil drain and Ellison throttle body without having to take the cowl off or have an oil drain door. Be sure to put stiffeners on the door and the sides of the cowl where it is cut. The stiffeners on the cowl, which are taller, also act as dams to keep the air in when the door is pulled up to the closed position. You can reduce the airflow by about two thirds using this system. Drawings and pictures will be published in a future issue of my newsletter, Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing. Subscriptions are available for a $5.00 donation. New subscribers get all back issues for the year. I also have reprints of the 1995 issues which are available for $5.00. Jim Cone, Editor Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter 422 Savannah Ridge Drive St. Charles, MO 63303 (314) 928-8703 jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: AHanna2(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: Re: What Can I Do? And an introduction.
Well I guess it's time to quit "lurking", introduce myself, and throw in my two cents worth. My name is Andy Hanna. I'm building an RV-4 (halfway through the tail and wings) and I've worked as an engineer for Van's for 5 years. I was working on the 4 with my father but he died a couple of years ago and I haven't had anyplace to work on it since. I bought a house a couple of months ago and have some work to do to it. But it has a two car airplane building room so I'll try to get the project moved in soon and maybe work on both at the same time. I wanted to comment on the pre-punched empennage since that was my project (with a lot of help from the rest of the crew). Ron can build any piece that he wants to first. The alignment is already built in. I would start with the rudder. Hopefully by the time you are done we will have the brackets in. If not, build the elevators. I will let everyone in the front office know this so that if a customer calls in waiting on the brackets we can let them know to go ahead and build the control surfaces. The delay is due to a couple of things. We were cutting it close to get the brackets out (the stamped parts have a really long lead time and on top of that we had to change the dies to include the holes). We decided to go ahead anyway because this kit really cuts out the hours. Even if it wasn't possible for a builder to work ahead on the other surfaces they would still be time ahead. After the stamping company received the drawings on the new brackets they called me to clarify a really minor detail. I thought everything was ok. A couple of weeks later they called to ask when I was going to send a new print so they could get started. Argh!! I really think the new pre-punched tail kits are going to be a hit. Tom got a call the other day from an experienced builder who had recieved one of the first kits and already had it built. He said it took him 80 hours to build and he was thinking about ordering another empennage while he was waiting for the wings to arrive. The RV-8 is getting closer to being ready to sell. We just finished putting together the last of the tail and have been shipping aluminum to the company that does our punching for us. Now comes the plans and manual. Luckily it will be similar to the RV-6 so it shouldn't take too long. We may not meet the schedule Van had in the RVator but we'll be real close. Andy Hanna AHanna2(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: Re: Cowl flaps
>I used a locking T handle bowden cable available from Wicks or Napa Auto >Parts (identical parts) and routed the cable from the panel through the >firewall and around the nose gear structure so that I can pull the cowl flap >door closed. I am using the space between Vettermans two pipe exhaust system >to close the air flow off. The door hinges just aft of the nose gear strut. > I have it spring loaded open so that it will actually open past the faired >position. This will allow me to get additional cooling on the ground if >needed while taxiing on hot days. The lock allows the door to be held in any >position with 1/2 turn of the T handle. This is a simple system with >nothing to break or fail. There is another advantage to having this setup. > I can disconnect the cable from the door and drop it down to get access to >the oil drain and Ellison throttle body without having to take the cowl off >or have an oil drain door. Be sure to put stiffeners on the door and the >sides of the cowl where it is cut. The stiffeners on the cowl, which are >taller, also act as dams to keep the air in when the door is pulled up to the >closed position. You can reduce the airflow by about two thirds using this >system. Drawings and pictures will be published in a future issue of my >newsletter, Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing. Subscriptions are available for >a $5.00 donation. New subscribers get all back issues for the year. I also >have reprints of the 1995 issues which are available for $5.00. > >Jim Cone, Editor >Van's Air Force, Tri-State Wing Newsletter >422 Savannah Ridge Drive >St. Charles, MO 63303 >(314) 928-8703 >jamescone(at)aol.com > Jim: Sounds like a good plan. Give us the numbers. Outside air temp vs. oil temp and head temp that you can get with this system. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
>Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I'm >thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney >list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as >they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood lights, >and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine down on >the panel. >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my >whole idea is down the drain. >Any info regarding? >John D RV6 > John: Here's my answer and you probably won't like it.....Internally light as many instruments as you can. I've flown my 4 alot at night and use 2 mini eyball lights to "flood" the cockpit. There ok but not great. I have a battery flood (Red) to read maps and such and as emergency backup. The best are still internally lighted. Problem is they tend to be expensive. I don't know about the led's. Regards: Rusty Gossard N47RG RV-4 Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Primer solenoid
Hi everyone- I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you share with me and the list? Thanks in advance. Bill /```|`\ /| _ _ _ _ / | \ || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` || `//`````````````\\`````````` \| // \\ _//_ _\\_ ( _`: ( _`: ````` ````` Husband and Father Mathematics Teacher Airplane Builder - working on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <74774.54(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Cockpit Lights
A friend of mine displayed a kit that he made. This kit had a dimmer circuit and a flsher circuit that can be used as a warning system. This kit was marketed by RST in California. He also has plans for a strobe light system that will cost less than $100. He has built one as have friends and all work very well... Rick RV6A Wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Cockpit Lights
You wrote: > >A friend of mine displayed a kit that he made. This kit had a dimmer circuit >and a flsher circuit that can be used >as a warning system. This kit was marketed by RST in California. > >He also has plans for a strobe light system that will cost less than $100. He >has built one as have friends and >all work very well... > > >Rick >RV6A Wings > > Rick, would you please let us know how to contact your friend if he is amenable. I am very interested in info about the strobe system. Were these wingtip strobes, for example? And did they include the position lights? And just what is available? Schematics? Instructions? Parts lists? Thanks for any info you can provide. Bill Costello -- ___ _____________________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \ X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \____________________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <74774.54(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Cockpit lights
Bill Costello My friend will fax me the plans this week. I can make it available soon after. His system is wingtip mounted and uses Xenon tubes. The position lights are a different project and I will have info on this soon. My friend is an A/P for Northwest Airlines and I swear he worked on Wilbur & Orvilles homebuilt. The guy is a bottomless pit of info, tips and tricks. I'll pass on what I can to all. Rick RV6A tail (99.9% done) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
Rusty, I agree with your assessment. I have the two mini eyeball lights, and their drawback is that they are white. Good for setting up the cockpit etc, but bad for the night vision. I have many that are internally lit. But the cost difference on some of them I didn't live with (120 to 165 for internal light?). Unfortunately, this applied to such as a/s, alt, att. ind., etc-those you really want on final etc. The post lights are ok, but as clumsy as I am, I'd have some broken off in no time. The eyebrows are good, but like the post, 20.00 per inst leaves me looking for something cheaper IF IT WILL WORK. There in my quest for something along the red LED flood light vein. Thanks for the imput. John D >Here's my answer and you probably won't like it.....Internally light as many >instruments as you can. I've flown my 4 alot at night and use 2 mini eyball >lights >to "flood" the cockpit. There ok but not great. I have a battery flood >(Red) to read maps and such and as emergency backup. The best are still >internally lighted. Problem is they tend to be expensive. I don't know >about the led's. > >Regards: >Rusty Gossard >N47RG RV-4 Flying > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit Lights
Rick, Was this an LED bulb or a regular bulb set up? Would be interested in more information. John D >A friend of mine displayed a kit that he made. This kit had a dimmer circuit >and a flsher circuit that can be used >Rick >RV6A Wings > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <74774.54(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Elevator control horns
Seems when I drilled the 1/4" hole for the center bracket I was off a little (1/8") I can force the bolt through by pushing on the control horn. I am tempted to elongate the hole to make it fit. It's a little late to replace this part as I would have to tear the entire elevator apart. Any help appreciated. Rick ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
>Hi everyone- > >I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed >the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place >of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and >eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you >share with me and the list? > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill > I installed the electric primer solenoid after I had a broken primer line at the top of the gascalater (sp?). That got me to thinking about all the "what if's" like what if the gas line had broken inside the cockpit. Also, I wasn't getting consistent amounts of prime with the manual push/pull pump. Bill Amos of Colorado had installed the electric solenoid on his RV-4 and wrote about it in the Rocky Mountain Newsletter. I talked to him about it and immediately ordered one for myself. It's actually cheaper to install the electric solenoid. I'll send you a copy of an article that I wrote about the solenoid by private e-mail. Not sure if everyone wants attachments sent to the entire rvlist. John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael C. Gamble" <mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com>
Subject: cockpit lights
Date: Mar 10, 1996
------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0E83.0076A220 John: My electronic know how is a little rusty, but I think your idea is down = the drain. LEDs are a solid state device, and I believe they are either = on or off. Mick ---------- From: John Darby[SMTP:our-town.com!johnd(at)matronics.com] Sent: Saturday, March 09, 1996 6:11 PM Subject: RV-List: cockpit lights Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? = I'm thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood = lights, and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine = down on the panel. The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim = with a dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then = my whole idea is down the drain. Any info regarding? John D RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 08, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Flyin
Can anyone tell me if and when there is an RV fly-in in Boone Iowa this year ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: crazer(at)egyptian.net (Chester Razer)
Subject: Fuse Jig advice needed
I'm constructing my fuse jig and I have a ? about the L shaped 2x4 crossmembers. Justice notes indicate the upright leg of the 2x4 crossmembers should all be the same, 3 1/2 ". I planed my 2x4's in order to get a uniform thickness and height and that upright leg now measures 3 1/16". Will that smaller dimension cause problems when jigging the fuse. Chet Razer crazer(at)egyptian.net ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Fly-in
Can anyone give me the details on an RV flying in Boone Iowa this year. Thanks chet razer crazer(at)egyptian.net finished fuse jig in 10 hrs. built main beams out of ripped and laminated 3/4" plywood and it worked great. No warping, shrinking or swelling. One sheet did the job with some left over for cross bracing. Cost: $17.00. Used 2x4's for cross beams that were recycled from wing jig. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: <Jim=Preston%303FS_DOT%Whiteman(at)szl.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 305FS/DOT, Whiteman
AFB, 975-2968)
Subject: Re: Schoolin'? (chatter)
charset=US-ASCII Gee, thanks, Ed. I want an RV, but let's be realistic! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
Let me throw in my 2 cents worth about the missing hinge brackets situation. I've had a couple of parts missing in both tail and wing kits and Van's did an excellent job of getting those parts to me a quickly as possible. They even replaced a tank skin that had a cosmetic imperfection in it free of charge. Don't get discouraged, I believe Van's leads the pack in areas of customer support and plain common courtesy. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Leo Davies <leo(at)icn.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do? And an introduction.
Dear Andy, I bet you are going to regret releasing your Email address. There are a zillion people ( myself included ) on this list looking for a direct line to Van's and an engineer to boot....... stand by to be inundated. Cheers, Leo Davies Dimping all those fuselage skins (tap, bang, bang, sssst, tap, bang, bang, tssst etc) >Well I guess it's time to quit "lurking", introduce myself, and throw in my >two cents worth. My name is Andy Hanna. I'm building an RV-4 (halfway through >the tail and wings) and I've worked as an engineer for Van's for 5 years. I >was working on the 4 with my father but he died a couple of years ago and I >haven't had anyplace to work on it since. I bought a house a couple of months >ago and have some work to do to it. But it has a two car airplane building >room so I'll try to get the project moved in soon and maybe work on both at >the same time. >I wanted to comment on the pre-punched empennage since that was my project >(with a lot of help from the rest of the crew). Ron can build any piece that >he wants to first. The alignment is already built in. I would start with the >rudder. Hopefully by the time you are done we will have the brackets in. If >not, build the elevators. I will let everyone in the front office know this >so that if a customer calls in waiting on the brackets we can let them know >to go ahead and build the control surfaces. >The delay is due to a couple of things. We were cutting it close to get the >brackets out (the stamped parts have a really long lead time and on top of >that we had to change the dies to include the holes). We decided to go ahead >anyway because this kit really cuts out the hours. Even if it wasn't possible >for a builder to work ahead on the other surfaces they would still be time >ahead. After the stamping company received the drawings on the new brackets >they called me to clarify a really minor detail. I thought everything was ok. >A couple of weeks later they called to ask when I was going to send a new >print so they could get started. Argh!! >I really think the new pre-punched tail kits are going to be a hit. Tom got a >call the other day from an experienced builder who had recieved one of the >first kits and already had it built. He said it took him 80 hours to build >and he was thinking about ordering another empennage while he was waiting for >the wings to arrive. >The RV-8 is getting closer to being ready to sell. We just finished putting >together the last of the tail and have been shipping aluminum to the company >that does our punching for us. Now comes the plans and manual. Luckily it >will be similar to the RV-6 so it shouldn't take too long. We may not meet >the schedule Van had in the RVator but we'll be real close. > >Andy Hanna > >AHanna2(at)aol.com > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BPattonsoa(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: -6 SLIDING CANOPY DETAILS
I am doing the 6A with a sliding canopy. Finished drilling the rear top skins on, and started fitting on the F-6111, the stiffner near the forward skin trim line. Wow, it ain't even close. The part matches the plan. Those two facts have me scared, because usually it means I have a problem. I have tried moving it up, down, sideways, forward, backwards, you get the picture. It fits well near the top, but is at least an inch away from the skin at the bottom. WHAT GIVES? Also, what is the trim line? I went back and have started mounting the tail surfaces for now, the skin clecoed on will keep my allignment. I first figured I would wait for the finishing kit to arrive, (due to ship next month), since I have plenty to do. (The kit will be here about 2 months early, I learned my lesson about that on the wings!!). But I keep looking at that 6111, and getting frustrated. Bruce Patton Waiting for CBs. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: nowakod(at)VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: left elevator
Folks, Had a real productive day...until....I had to make those pesky bends to close the left elevator from the trim tab cutout...&*%$# This was last weekend.....called van's...they said cut off the unsightly (down right ugly) tabs and replace with a homemade rib. Has anyone out there done this? any tips/suggestions on how to go about this. I was thinking about making a block of wood to fit then bend .025 over it. Right track?? don (RV6...emp almost done....wings just shipped from Vans...ordered 11/30/95) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Dave Mumert" <Dave.Mumert(at)cadvision.com>
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: cockpit lights
> From: "Michael C. Gamble" <chiba.netxn.com!mgamble(at)matronics.com> > To: "'rv-list(at)matronics.com'" > Subject: RE: RV-List: cockpit lights > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:01:22 -0800 > Reply-to: rv-list(at)matronics.com >> The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a > dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my > whole idea is down the drain. > Muy data book from Hewlwtt-Packard shows luminous intensity varies almost linearly with the current through device. The HLMP-4600 series high efficiency red LED shows a relative output of 50% at 5mA, 100% at 10mA, 150% at 14mA, 300% at 24 mA, and 400% at 30mA. 100% in normalized as the light output at 10mA. If you parallel LED's to get higher intensity be sure to put a a resistor in series with each of the LEDs so one does not hog all the current. It would be more efficient to wire them in series as the forward voltage is only about 2.2 volts. Have fun Dave Mumert Dave Mumert dmumert(at)softnc.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: jpl(at)showpg.mn.org (Joe Larson)
Subject: Re: Cockpit lights
Date: Mar 10, 1996
> Anyone know anyhting about light emmiting diodes? The LEDs will change intensity based upon current flow, so adding a rheostat will change the amount of light you get. However, I don't know if I would try to use LEDs in a floodlight arrangement. I've also flown airplanes with post lights. *Much* better than interior spot lights or flood lights, but you want two posts per instrument, not one. I believe that makes it $40 per instrument, not the $20 that someone else quoted. I'm going to make my own post lights. I'll start with LEDs. I'm not sure of all the details yet, but I'll be sticking them in a tube of some sort. Of course, they'll need to be replacable, so I'll have to come up with some sort of plug-in arrangement. I think I can make 'em for around $5 a piece. Once I get that far (I'm only on the elevator, so I have a ways to go), I'll share my final design. Of course, if someone else solves the problem first..... -Joe -- Joe Larson jpl(at)showpg.mn.org 612-595-9690(w) Showpage Software, Inc. 435 Ford Rd, Suite 315 St. Louis Park, Mn 55426 Future RV-6A pilot. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: wiring
I'd like to get some ideas on wiring; in particular how others wired up their buss bars. I have a piece of copper for the main buss bar, but how did you go about mounting it and keeping it insulated from the airframe? How did you physically attach the various items to it? Also, do you use a buss bar of some type for the ground attachments? Please feel free to be detailed. Thanks, Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: <Jim=Preston%303FS_DOT%Whiteman(at)szl.afres.af.mil> (Maj, 305FS/DOT, Whiteman
AFB, 975-2968)
Subject: Phoenix Phlyers
charset=US-ASCII I'm going to be out in Phoenix from March 18th to the 22nd attending an Air Force conference...any -6 builders/flyers out there I could talk into a ride? I was lucky enough to see Dave Barnhart's project last fall (I may give you a call again, Dave), and I'd like to actually ride in a -6 if anybody's got one who wouldn't mind giving an A-10 pilot a ride. (Don't worry, I should be able to keep up with the airplane.) Of course I'll pay for gas, etc. and dinner too at the nearest greasy spoon airport restaurant. It'd have to be after 5:00 or so, depending on when we get done working at Luke AFB. I'm also interested in seeing airplanes-in-work, so if you don't have one flying yet, I'd still like to see how you're doing. My number here is (816) 687-2968 daytime. If we can work something out, I'll give you a call when I arrive Monday afternoon. Thanks, Jim ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com (John Ammeter)
Subject: Re: Fuse Jig advice needed
>I'm constructing my fuse jig and I have a ? about the L shaped 2x4 >crossmembers. Justice notes indicate the upright leg of the 2x4 >crossmembers should all be the same, 3 1/2 ". I planed my 2x4's in order >to get a uniform thickness and height and that upright leg now measures 3 >1/16". > >Will that smaller dimension cause problems when jigging the fuse. > >Chet Razer >crazer(at)egyptian.net > > Shouldn't make any difference as long as they are all the same. If anyone with more recent fuselage construction experience can think of any problem I'm sure they'll speak up. You planed them to get them all the same??? Now that's dedication to the 'nth degree. I just shimmed whenever I couldn't bend the longeron down to meet the 2x4. :>)). John Ammeter ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com Seattle WA, USA RV-6 N16JA Flying 5 years ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Rick Osgood <74774.54(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: left elevator
Been there, done it... I redid my trim tab and made my own ribs from the old trima tab. Worked much better and is much cleaner looking. Rick RV6A tail done ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Chris Ruble <cruble(at)cisco.com>
Subject: Re: wiring conduit
Just in case there are some out there that don't know this trick... You can blow a pull string through a tube with air. Push the string into the tube as far as you can push it, and then use a spray nozle to put ait into the tube. The string will be pulled along the tube by the air. It helps to frey the end of the sring to add drag. Chris > > Electrical wire does not 'push' well, especially through small tubing with > bends, etc... > I suggest that you measure the length of the tubing required, plus a bit, and > cut it off... with the precut tubing out straight on the bench/floor use an > electricians fish tape, or stiff wire, etc. to pull a nylon cord through the > tubing and tape the cord at each end of the tube to secure it... then install > the tube in the plane... when you are ready for wiring, use the nylon cord to > pull the wire bundle through the tube...always include a fresh length of > nylon cord as a part of the wire bundle, for pulling the inevitable wiring > additions later... > > Denny k8do(at)aol.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mass(at)netcom.netcom.com (Glenn M. Massarotti)
Subject: Band saws
Date: Mar 10, 1996
My partner and I are tooling-up to build an RV-6, and are currently considering band saw options. Is a table top saw, say 10", adequate for our needs, or do we want a full-size. I realize that the bigger tool is generally always nicer, but we are interested in what we really need, and can get by with. Any opinions would be appreciated. -- Dandy Day Glenn | ------|------ <===================================> ....................... \ / * * \ / . Glenn M. Massarotti . * * * * . ATP, CFI-AIM . / \ * * / \ . mass(at)netcom.com . <===================================> ....................... / \ () () ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
>Hi everyone- > >I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed >the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place >of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and >eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you >share with me and the list? > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill Bill: I have one in my 6 and it seems to work well. The advantage to the plunger typw is that you can measure exactly the aomunt to prime (number of strokes). I prefer the safety advantage of the electric valve, no fuel lines in the cockpit. Also, no "O" rings to wear out. Of course, if your battery is dead, you won't be able to prime. You need to have the boost pump on and, of course, the electric valve wouldn't work anyway. Another safety aspect: if, for some reason, the carb quit, you could keep fuel flowing with either set-up but it would probably be easier pressing a button than stroking a plunger. I have a red light that comes on when the "press to prime" button is depressed as conformation that the electric primer is working. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Cockpit lights
>Anyone know anyhting about light emmiting diodes? I'm thinking about >getting some of the J C Whitney third brake light LEDs and working up some >lights for the cockpit. Maybe some on the roll bar as 'flood lights' and >some under the instru. 'hood', pointed down on the instru. panel as instru. >lights. I would want to wire these through my dimmer for brightness >control, particularly the ones on the instru. And this brings up my first >problem - will a LED dim similar to a reg filament bulb? Any one know the >answer to that? Would appreciate info. >John D RV6 > John: On the Glasair that I built we put a string of lights under the glare shield. They were a series of "grain of wheat" light bulbs encased in a red plastic tube. We found it at a truck stop. Had it hooked up to the panel dimmer and the set up seemed to work OK. You could always purchase the strip, tape it under the glare shield and check out effectivness in a dark shop. This is what I did. I didn't fly at night with this set up as I sold the plastic airplane so I could build a real one. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Flyin
>Can anyone tell me if and when there is an RV fly-in in Boone Iowa >this year > Chet: The Boone, Iowa fly in is June 8th. Contact person: Jeff Lorimer 515-432-6181 Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Terrance Jantzi <tjantzi(at)netrover.com>
Subject: Re: Cowl flaps
Bob Skinner wrote: > > Thanks to all who responded with ideas concerning cowl flaps. > I guess I prefer manual controls as opposed to automatic. I feel that I missed the responces you got back. Here's one more. Gord Baxter a close friend just installed a cowl flap setup in his RV-6. He has been plagued with low CH and oil temps for a long time. More so when we are experiencing our "temperate" winter climate. His findings so far, (one week of testing) are that he needs two hands to pull the cowl flap shut. After closing, the vernier cable won't hold in shut. He has found faster a increase in oil temps after starting and warm up, but only about 4 degrees higher at cruise. Terry Jantzi C-GZRV RV-6 final inspection in May ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: wiring
>I'd like to get some ideas on wiring; in particular how others wired up their >buss bars. I have a piece of copper for the main buss bar, but how did you >go about mounting it and keeping it insulated from the airframe? How did you >physically attach the various items to it? > >Also, do you use a buss bar of some type for the ground attachments? > >Please feel free to be detailed. >Thanks, Ed Bundy > Ed: Have you checked out the AeroElectric connection? Bob Nuckolls has some good ideas on wiring and buss bars. If I would have followed his advice, I would have saved $400-450 and quite a bit of weight and complexity. I used a flattened copper tubing across the tops of the circuit breakers and switch circuit breakers, ah la Tony Bingalis (sp). Using this method makes removing one bad CB very difficult. At another location, I used a Radio Shack terminal block that has screws for attaching wires, either "U" shaped or ring terminals. I beleive that ring terminals are the "approved" method of attachment. Over this terminal block, I fabricated an aluminum cover that I attached with #6 screw to protect against shorting out. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JerryFlyRV(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 10, 1996
Subject: Re: Cockpit lights
>I've also flown airplanes with post lights. *Much* better than interior >spot lights or flood lights, but you want two posts per instrument, not >one. I believe that makes it $40 per instrument, not the $20 that someone >else quoted. Hi Joe Just curious as to why you need two post light instead of one for each instrument? I have post light in my RV-6 and I have to turn the rheostat down pretty low because they are very bright and really light up the panel. I agree with you that post lights are the much better way to go in my opinion, I have flown a lot of airplanes over the years at night giving flight instruction and it seems that with flood lights and spot lights there is always a shadow somewhere. Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14,1989 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: Stuart Fraley <swfraley(at)alpha.comsource.net>
Subject: Re: Band saws
Glenn, Many people build with no bandsaw at all, though I've found it to be _very_ helpful. Unless there's something at a later stage to justify more expense, I say get the cheapie. Stuart Fraley Left Elevator >My partner and I are tooling-up to build an RV-6, and are currently >considering band saw options. Is a table top saw, say 10", adequate for >our needs, or do we want a full-size. I realize that the bigger tool is >generally always nicer, but we are interested in what we really need, >and can get by with. Any opinions would be appreciated. > > -- > >Dandy Day > >Glenn > > > | > ------|------ > <===================================> ....................... > \ / * * \ / . Glenn M. Massarotti . > * * * * . ATP, CFI-AIM . > / \ * * / \ . mass(at)netcom.com . > <===================================> ....................... > / \ > () () > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ground Bus and Other Grounding Issues
>An excellent source for a ground bus is B&C Specialty Products (316)283-8000. >They have one that uses PIDG spade terminal connections. >Stan Blanton >RV-6 Fuselage skeleton While the topic of grounding is up . . . I thought I would share some words with RV-LIST which are currently being incorporated into the 6th edition of the 'Connection. Some salient points to ponder . . . 1. The most important wire in your airplane runs from battery (-) to crankcase. In all but rotax powered airplanes this should be a 2AWG (oh well, you RVers with 12" ground leads can get by with a 4AWG . . . BUT NO SMALLER. There are a number of reasons for this which I won't elaborate on here . . . you'll have to get details by reading the book! 2. The next wire to go in runs from crankcase to firewall. This wire is alternator and/or systems load sized, 4AWG for 60 amp alternators, 6 AWG for 40 amp machines. 3. If your airplane is tractor type, the next items to install are B&C ground buses on both sides of firewall. A 48-pin device on cabin side, a 24-pin device on firewall side. Both them back to back with 5/16" BRASS hardware. The firewall to crankcase lead should go to the 5/16" thru-stud. Install the stud with just ground busses and locktite under the first nut. Put the firewall to crankcase jumper under a second nut with an internal tooth lockwasher. 4. Now, if you're building an RV, your ground SYSTEM is done. Only remotely located components like light fixtures at tips, strobe supplies under seat, etc . . . are grounded locally (right next to where they mount). All goodies behind panel should get their own ground wire to the ground bus . . . don't daisy-chain a number of components onto the same ground wire. All goodies under the cowl, except for those which achieve ground by virtue of it's enclosure being mounted to metal, get their own ground lead to the forward firewall ground bus. 5. Special Cases: All headset and microphone jacks should be INSULATED from local ground with fiber washers or fabrication of non-conducting mounting brackets. All unbalanced antennas (comm monopole, Archer's wing-tip vor antennas, etc) must get good local ground. All balanced antennas (g.s. dipoles, vor dipoles in canards, Archer's gamma-matched dipoles, etc) generally require no local ground and may cause problems if they ARE locally grounded. Check with manufacturer but in any case, leaving it ungrounded is generally the best thing to do FIRST. Canard pusher aircraft with battery mid-ships or forward will have an engine side firewall ground bus as above but no cabin side ground bus. These aircraft need a 48-point ground block behind the panel attached to battery (-) with 4AWG wire. In a nutshell, the techniques described will save you a lot of fuss and all but guarantee a noise free, voltage stable electrical system. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: scottg(at)villagenet.com (Scott Gesele)
Subject: Re: Elevator control horns
>Seems when I drilled the 1/4" hole for the center bracket I was off a little >(1/8") I can >force the bolt through by pushing on the control horn. I am tempted to elongate >the >hole to make it fit. It's a little late to replace this part as I would have to >tear the entire elevator apart. > >Any help appreciated. > >Rick > > A couple of thoughts come to mind. 1. If the hole is off in the horizontal, would you be able to adjust the rod-end bearings to compensate for this? 2. If it off vertically, or the above doesn't work, why not have a doubler piece of steel welded on and then re-drill the hole? 3. If it is the left elevator, there doesn't seem to be THAT many rivets to drill out, to enable the skin to be peeled back, to buck the rivets on a new elevator horn. There is a reason that Van specified a 1/4" bolt at this joint. This is an attatchment point for a VERY important piece of aluminum that you will be hauling around the sky. My personal standards would never allow for an error like this to remain. I've made, and continue to make mistakes. There is a time to reorder parts, work an acceptable solution into the mistake or scrap the whole assembly. This is your A/C, only you can determine what is best for you. Hope this helps. -Scott N506RV ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RC Servo Reliability
Some additional thoughts on RC (or any other kind) of servo hooked to flight controls: IMHO, the only way to consider connection of any electrical motion generator to a flight control is to ASSUME right out of the bag that it IS going to fail in the worst possible mode. Then, plan you system architecture accordingly. Re: trim systems. Is your airplane COMFORTABLY controllable with the electric trim driven fully to either stop? If not, consider carefully whether or not you really want electric trim. Re: autopilots. Are there any failure modes which would present a problem to you as a pilot to deal with it? Servos jammed full stroke (as in trim above) is one condition to explore. Erratic operation is best dealt with by including a master trim/autopilot disconnect system operated from a push button on wheel or stick . . . Lears and Citations have em . . . be the first on your block to incorporate biz-jet features in your homebuilt and include means for timely disconnection of all electrical power from trim and/or autopilot. If you've satisfied yourself with respect to the worst, then I'll suggest that ANY servo or associated component you wish to try is OKAY. There's far too much agonizing over whether or not a part is "aircraft quality", a vague definition at best. The condition is made worse when, for what ever reason, we decide the part IS aircaraft quality whereupon we seem to think it's no longer on the list of things to worry about. Do it right . . . . don't put any electrical system part in if it's something you worry about. Failure tolerant design is not difficult and it lets you concentrate on things like keeping the wings on, etc. etc. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + The ONLY reason to upgrade the quality (cost) + + of any part is because you are tired of + + replacing it . . . NOT because it damned + + near got you killed! + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Cockpit lights
---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: John Darby, INTERNET:johnd@our-town.com DATE: 3/9/96 11:24 PM RE: RV-List: Cockpit lights >Anyone know anyhting about light emmiting diodes? I'm thinking about >getting some of the J C Whitney third brake light LEDs and working up some >lights for the cockpit. Maybe some on the roll bar as 'flood lights' and >some under the instru. 'hood', pointed down on the instru. panel as instru. >lights. I would want to wire these through my dimmer for brightness >control, particularly the ones on the instru. And this brings up my first >problem - will a LED dim similar to a reg filament bulb? Any one know the >answer to that? Would appreciate info. >John D RV6 John, LED's are an excellent alternative for generating panel illumination but with the following caveats: The really bright ones (3000 mcd or more) are generally available only in red but the ambers are coming on strong. LEDs are a CURRENT driven device . . . not voltage . . . dimming becomes a matter of controlling voltage into a series circuit consisting of one or more LEDs in series with a resistor that provides an increase in dynamic impedance so that common, variable voltage dimmers can be used for LEDs. In layman's lingo, this simply means some modifications to contemporary dimming hardware to get somwhat linear dimming response from the dimmer knob. . . The ones i've been playing with will put a spot of light on the wall across the room . . . i.e., they tend to be narrow focus. I've worked out several ways to sand the end dome of the lamp to scatter the light and reduce the tendency to put all the light in one place. So far, the most successful 'floods' I've developed involve putting an array of LEDs behind a frosted lens for light scattering. This would work very well for panel lighting a-la C-150, C-172 where there's a fixture on the cabin ceiling with enough volume to contain dimmer, about 10 lamps and the frosted cover assembly. You don't need to "salvage" lamps from an automotive product unless you really want to . . . Hosfelt Electronics, 800-524-6464 will send you a catalog which lists lots of fresh, new ones. However, they may be more expensive per lamp since the automotive product's lamps were purchsed by the car load instead of ten-at-a-time. If there's some interest, I'll publish constant current dimmer circuit for LEDs . . . Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Cowl flaps
Rusty Gossard asked for some numbers on CHT and Oil Temp using my cowl flap design. I don't have any because I still have to fit my canopy and paint my plane. As soon as I get some numbers I will post them on the list. I'm sure that I will be able to raise the numbers by cutting down the air exiting the cowl and perhaps reduce the drag a bit as well. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KUKULSKIM(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
You wrote: >Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I have two contributions: 1. The now defunct ISAE Omega II (very upscale all-metal homebuilt) I saw at Copperstate 93 had a cockpit lighting system made up of a string of alternating red and green LEDs mounted under the edge of the glareshield. Either color LEDs could be illuminated separately, or both colors on at the same time. They claimed this yielded a near-white light (??) Anyway, that's a thought. 2. May 1987 SPORT AVIATION, page 33, has an article about homebuilt cockpit lighting made by fabricating a plexiglass overlay for each instrument (with a hole cutout to match the instrument face) with two grain-of-wheat light bulbs inbedded in the plexiglas. The entire plexiglas part is painted white (except the hole cutout edge) to increase light reflection. After painting white the cockpit facing surface could be repainted to match the panel or instruments if desired. This offered edge lighting around the entire instrument and could be dimmed via a rheostat. I've also seen this concept discussed with an entire panel overlay of plexiglas versus individual ones for each instrument. This might be a bit of work, but if done well, would probably look very professional. Mike Kukulski (kukulskim(at)aol.com) RV-4 N96MK (throttle quadrant installed, with no interference with manual trim lever, after hours of brainstorming) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen )
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
You wrote: > >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? John, Yes LEDs will dim with a reostat in series just like a lightbulb. However, for power savings, a switching circuit would probably be better. (Ratio of on- to off-time would determine brightness.) Finn ________________________________________________________________________________
From: JamesCone(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: ground bus (was Strobe Power Pack)
Open connectors are not allowed by stantard aircraft practice. Experimentals can do as they like but there are very good reasons for using ring connectors. The most important is that they cannot slip off when secured by a proper locking nut. Jim Cone jamescone(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: alanw(at)netspace.net.au (Alan Williams)
Subject: Re: left elevator
Don, Using ribs to close the trim tab and elevator cutout gives a much better result IMHO, it also means you can use solid rivets to attach the trim tab horn - in Australia by the way there's an AD requiring modification to the standard (4) pop rivet method for attaching the horn. I made the wood 'forms' in two halfs and clamped the rib blank between them using wood screws, also cutout the same shape in a sheet of wood and then pressed the form and rib blank through the female mold using a vice - worked well. Don't forget the radius on the male mold. There's a bit of work making the 3 sets of forms but there doesn't seem to be any quick n' easy way as far as the trim tab's concerned. I have an AutoCad drawing of the rib blanks if it will help. Regards, Alan Williams Melbourne, Australia. RV6A - making wings >Folks, Had a real productive day...until....I had to make those pesky bends >to close the left elevator from the trim tab cutout...&*%$# > >This was last weekend.....called van's...they said cut off the unsightly >(down right ugly) tabs and replace with a homemade rib. Has anyone out there >done this? any tips/suggestions on how to go about this. > >I was thinking about making a block of wood to fit then bend .025 over it. >Right track?? > > >don (RV6...emp almost done....wings just shipped from Vans...ordered 11/30/95) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: sarg314(at)AZStarNet.com (Tom Sargent)
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
>Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I'm >thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney >list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as >they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood lights, >and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine down on >the panel. >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my >whole idea is down the drain. >Any info regarding? >John D RV6 LEDs dim nicely when you reduce the voltage. I always thought this would be a good idea, though I have never done anything like it. Another nice thing about them is they have very long lifetime (don't put huge amounts of current thru them. For this application 10 or 20ma ought to do it). They're much more robust than light bulbs with filaments in an environment with lots of vibration. More of my theories: One drawback to using these for general illumination MAY be that they emit their light in a very narrow wavelength range. The usual cheap red filter on the flash light that one uses in the cockpit at night has, I've always assumed, a much broader band pass; it's not quite so "pure" a red. Cheap filters are rarely narrow. I assume that broader band pass might make charts and everything else look a little better to the eye. Just a guess. I'd experiment first - LEDs are cheap. ---------- Tom Sargent Long on theory - short on experience. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 10, 1996
From: finnlass(at)ix.netcom.com (Finn Lassen )
Subject: cockpit lights
Not true. Try to hook up an LED to a variable power supply. (I believe a single LED runs at 1.4 (or is it 2.4) volts, so you need several in series if you want to run them at 12 volts. Finn ou wrote: >John: >My electronic know how is a little rusty, but I think your idea is down = >the drain. LEDs are a solid state device, and I believe they are either = >on or off. > >Mick > >---------- >From: John Darby[SMTP:our-town.com!johnd(at)matronics.com] >Sent: Saturday, March 09, 1996 6:11 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: cockpit lights > >Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? = >I'm >thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney >list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as >they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood = >lights, >and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine = >down on >the panel. >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim = >with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then = >my >whole idea is down the drain. >Any info regarding? >John D RV6 > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: joehine(at)mi.net (joehine)
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
Short note to Bill Costello in Chicago, sorry Bill, the Bill below just took your position of having the most impressive signature page on the list. Don't feel bad, no one stays on top forever :-))) And to Bill Garrett, congradulation on being the new champion!!!! Joe Hine >Hi everyone- > >I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed >the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place >of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and >eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you >share with me and the list? > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill > > /```|`\ > /| _ _ _ _ / | \ > || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ > || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ > _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ > <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / > || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` > || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` > || `//`````````````\\`````````` > \| // \\ > _//_ _\\_ > ( _`: ( _`: > ````` ````` > >Husband and Father >Mathematics Teacher >Airplane Builder - working on the wings > > > Joe Hine joehine(at)mi.net 506-452-1072 Home 506-452-3495 Work ________________________________________________________________________________
From: mbaker(at)gate.net
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
Date: Mar 09, 1996
> > The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a > dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my > whole idea is down the drain. > LED's can be dimmed with a current limiting resistor (potentiometer or rheostat) in series with the power supply. It should be rated to supply enough current to meet the display's rated consumption. Post lights or one of the "overlay" plastic panel lights do a better job of instrument lighting, IMO. Mickey Baker | Sage Research Corporation mbaker(at)gate.net | Pompano Beach, FL KC4ZU PP-ASEL-IA Cheetah N9856U | (305)785-2354 "Men should pause for ONE MOMENT and take another LONG LOOK at the very thing that brings meaning to their meaningless lives." -B. Breathed ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 09, 1996
From: bobh(at)synopsys.com (Bob Haan)
Subject: both wings at the same time
>This idea of building both wings at the same time seems to be pretty >popular. To do this, do you just build two jigs and do Step 1 right, then >Step 1 left, etc.? Or do most people use the back-to-back jig that was in >the RVator about a year ago? > >Stuart Fraley RV-6 I am doing both wings at one time. Some disadvantages: 1. Twice as many clecoes 2. Several times I found that after several steps (on both wings) it would have improved the quality of the results, made things simpler, or reduced time to use a different sequence but I had already done the steps on both wings. In other words, the second wing did not benefit from what I had learned. 3. Of course, requires more space. I am using two jigs space 4 feet apart in a two stall garage. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Bob Haan Office 503-531-2366 Pacific Northwest Mobile 503-720-1132 Account Manager FAX 503-690-6906 Synopsys Modeling Group E-mail bobh(at)synopsys.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: KingD(at)direct.ca (David W.S. King)
Subject: cockpit lights
>John: >My electronic know how is a little rusty, but I think your idea is down the drain. LEDs are a solid state device, and I believe they are either on or off. > >Mick You can change the resistor's around a bit to change the brightness, but I have never heard of using a rheostat to do so. What I have seen in led lighting was a multy position switch that cut in more or less LRDS. There are leds which are very bright to the point of being painfull to look at so they do vary a bit. Dave >---------- >From: John Darby[SMTP:our-town.com!johnd(at)matronics.com] >Sent: Saturday, March 09, 1996 6:11 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: cockpit lights > >Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I'm >thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney >list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as >they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood lights, >and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine down on >the panel. >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my >whole idea is down the drain. >Any info regarding? >John D RV6 > > > > >Attachment Converted: C:\#SEND\RERV-Li4 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Enclosures on the RV-List...
Hello everyone, I have added a new section to the RV-List FAQ regarding the sending of enclosures to the list. Please review it below. Thanks. Matt Dralle RV-List Admin. Sending Enclosures Please do not send enclosures of any kind to the RV-List! Generally these very large and make the Archive file grow way too fast. There are also many members on the RV-List that cannot handle these messages. There are a number ftp servers and Web pages that enclosure-type data can be posted to for all to read. If you would like something added to the RV-List section on "ftp.matronics.com" please send an email message to "dralle(at)matronics.com" with your request. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Elevator control horns
Don't force the horn to fit, as this will cause the elevator to bind. You could rivet a steel doubler to the horn on the side away from the flanges, and reposition the hole. If you elongate the hole in the horn and drill the doubler before rivetting, you could assemble everything before clamping the doubler to the horn, assuring a perfect fit. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > Seems when I drilled the 1/4" hole for the center bracket I was off a little > (1/8") I can > force the bolt through by pushing on the control horn. I am tempted to elongate > the > hole to make it fit. It's a little late to replace this part as I would have to > tear the entire elevator apart. > > Any help appreciated. > > Rick > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Strobes (was Cockpit lights)
Rick, Very interested in these strobes too. Look forward to your post. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > > My friend will fax me the plans this week. I can make it available soon after. > His system is wingtip mounted and uses Xenon tubes. The position lights are a > different project and I will have info on this soon. > > My friend is an A/P for Northwest Airlines and I swear he worked on Wilbur & > Orvilles homebuilt. The guy is a bottomless pit of info, tips and tricks. > > I'll pass on what I can to all. > > Rick > RV6A tail (99.9% done) > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
Agreed. I had a set of Cleveland wheels which developed surface corrosion. Vans paid UPS both ways to replace them. Big bucks. Total integrity. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > Let me throw in my 2 cents worth about the missing hinge brackets > situation. I've had a couple of parts missing in both tail and wing > kits and Van's did an excellent job of getting those parts to me a > quickly as possible. They even replaced a tank skin that had a > cosmetic imperfection in it free of charge. > > Don't get discouraged, I believe Van's leads the pack in areas of > customer support and plain common courtesy. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
Agreed. I had a set of Cleveland wheels which developed surface corrosion. Vans paid UPS both ways to replace them. Big bucks. Total integrity. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > Let me throw in my 2 cents worth about the missing hinge brackets > situation. I've had a couple of parts missing in both tail and wing > kits and Van's did an excellent job of getting those parts to me a > quickly as possible. They even replaced a tank skin that had a > cosmetic imperfection in it free of charge. > > Don't get discouraged, I believe Van's leads the pack in areas of > customer support and plain common courtesy. > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
You wrote: > >Short note to Bill Costello in Chicago, sorry Bill, the Bill below just >took your position of having the most impressive signature page on the list. >Don't feel bad, no one stays on top forever :-))) > >And to Bill Garrett, congradulation on being the new champion!!!! > >Joe Hine > > > > > >>Hi everyone- >> >>I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed >>the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place >>of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and >>eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you >>share with me and the list? >> >>Thanks in advance. >> >>Bill >> >> /```|`\ >> /| _ _ _ _ / | \ >> || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ >> || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ >> _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ >> <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / >> || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` >> || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` >> || `//`````````````\\`````````` >> \| // \\ >> _//_ _\\_ >> ( _`: ( _`: >> ````` ````` >> >>Husband and Father >>Mathematics Teacher >>Airplane Builder - working on the wings >> >> >> >Joe Hine >joehine(at)mi.net >506-452-1072 Home >506-452-3495 Work > > I have to say I completely agree. Wonder if he has it copywrited? Would like to steal it and add a few touches of my own!! :) Bill Costello -- ___ _____________________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \ X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \____________________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
Bill , I do no tknow what Frank did put Becki and I have put a primer soleniod in all of our RV6s and can say that it works great. You bring a line off the gasolator to the soleniod taht from the soleniod to the primer ports of the engine. When you turn your electric fuel pump on you can operate the soleniod to prime your engine.The soleniod cost about $30.If you are interested let me know and I'll dig up a part # and phone # where you can order it as well as a part list for the rest of the primer system...George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: left elevator
Bending the tab over on thge trim tab is not easy I made the little ribs on both of my RV6s and are pleased. Just take some cardboard and make a blank that wil fit then more this over to some .025 and with a metal brake bend up a rib if the first one does not fix make a nothe one . Then with mk-319 rivet from vans pot rivet them in place.The mk-319 pop rivet you drill 3/32 dimple 3/32 then redill 7/64 and rivet.any question write or call 301-293-1505...George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Band saws
Dandy, A 10 inch band saw will serve you well, I've build a planes with one and foound it to be just right . Use a good metal cutting blade and it will cut any work you need on the plane...George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: Emp Done!
If you expect your building project to take an extended time period, consider priming the outside surfaces before storing them >I'm putting the emp aside to start working on the wing... Took me six months >to get this far, but this is one happy fella. > >My question for the day is should I do anything special to the surfaces as I >put them in storage? I plan to put them in a spare bedroom, so it is a >climate controlled area. As you can expect, there are a lot of fingerprints >etc on the surfaces. Do I just leave them, or wipe them off with lacquer >thinner, or?? > >You advise is always appreciated. > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Becki Orndorff <rso(at)css.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Re: left elevator
Don, You can make a forming block, or just use a metal brake to do the bends. We show how to do this on our empennage video. Please call if you need more help evenings at 301-293-1505. Becki Orndorff >Folks, Had a real productive day...until....I had to make those pesky bends >to close the left elevator from the trim tab cutout...&*%$# > >This was last weekend.....called van's...they said cut off the unsightly >(down right ugly) tabs and replace with a homemade rib. Has anyone out there >done this? any tips/suggestions on how to go about this. > >I was thinking about making a block of wood to fit then bend .025 over it. >Right track?? > > >don (RV6...emp almost done....wings just shipped from Vans...ordered 11/30/95) > > Becki Orndorff NCI-FCRDC, Computer & Statistical Services ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: Bob Skinner, INTERNET:BSkinner(at)ltec.net DATE: 3/10/96 9:47 PM >>I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed >>the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place >>of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and >>eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you >>share with me and the list? > >>Thanks in advance. > >>Bill >Bill: I have one in my 6 and it seems to work well. The advantage to the >plunger typw is that you can measure exactly the aomunt to prime (number of >strokes). I prefer the safety advantage of the electric valve, no fuel >lines in the cockpit. Also, no "O" rings to wear out. Of course, if your >battery is dead, you won't be able to prime. You need to have the boost >pump on and, of course, the electric valve wouldn't work anyway. Another >safety aspect: if, for some reason, the carb quit, you could keep fuel >flowing with either set-up but it would probably be easier pressing a button >than stroking a plunger. I have a red light that comes on when the "press >to prime" button is depressed as conformation that the electric primer is >working. Bob Skinner RV-6 I'll add a few words to Bob's . . . for the electric (or hand pump) primer to be useful as carburetor backup (don't laugh folks . . read old issues of Flying . . I seem to recall at least two published cases where a plugged float valve was overcome by stroking a primer pump . . ) you need to have a full, four-port primer system. Many primers just hit two cylinders. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Quest
On Fri, 8 Mar 1996 RELOSVCS!WESTREG!EHENSON(at)cldwell.attmail.com wrote: > In the meantime if anyone could give a quick overview of the above mentioned > construction method I would be most greatfull. I fabricated little end ribs for my trim tab, and it's pretty easy. Make them out posterboard (or cu up a manilla file folder). You may have to re-make it several times before you get one to fit just right. Then using the posterboard rib as a template, cut out one from .032 aluminum. I found the best way to bend it is in one of those ltlle $26 bending brakes that US Tool sells. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 N601DB fueselage in jig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Vert. Stab wiring
>I'm getting ready to close my vertical stabilizer. I'm planning to > put the 3-position Whelen lights on the wing tips. I'm also planning > GPS rather that VOR. Is there any reason to run wires (or pull > strings) through the vertical stab? If not, would it better to not > drill holes through the ribs? > > thanks, > > Russ Nichols > russ_nichols(at)fire.ca.gov Russ: Why don't you drill the holes in the internal ribs, insert the pushin plastic grommets that Van supplies, and run a string for pulling in wies at a later date. Can't loose with that approach as is sure makes it a lot easier later IF you have to run wires for something you hadn't planned on....... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: wiring
>d like to get some ideas on wiring; in particular how others wired up their >buss bars. I have a piece of copper for the main buss bar, but how did you >go about mounting it and keeping it insulated from the airframe? How did you >physically attach the various items to it? > >Also, do you use a buss bar of some type for the ground attachments? > >Please feel free to be detailed. >Thanks, Ed Bundy > > Ed: There have been a bunch of articles in Sport Aviation by Tony Bingilus (sp) covering this subject. He probably has the info in one of his book by now. I used a piece of 3/4" or 1" copper pipe and cut out, and flattened, the copper 1/2" strip to make the buss bar. I have all the breakers in a row on the right, lower part of the panel. They represent a "radio" bus, and a "main" power bus for all other electrical components. I attached a piece of copper across the top screw contacts of the breakers, using the screws that came with the breakers. I then cut out the dividing area of the bus to get the two seperate busses (radio and main). To prevent the possibility of something dropping onto this bus and shorting it out to the grounded panel, I covered the exposed buss bar areas between the breakers with shrink tubing. A wire from the main buss to the 20 Amp radio master Circuit Breaker Switch (and emergency bypass switch, located on the lower left side of the panel), then back to the "radio buss" breakers, completes the positive side of the radio buss circuit. The other side of the radio breakers then goes to the individual radios. In some cases (the nav & landing lights, pito heat, strobes, aux fuel pump) I used circuit breaker switches that have their own mini copper power buss. These switches are located on the lower left side of the panel and are connected directly to the main buss with a piece of aviation quality #10 wire and the appropriate connectors. In this case, the pice of #10 wire is bolted to the main buss between two of the circuit breakers. In some cases you may find that an airframe component, like the F-645 stiffener behinf the instrument panel, interfers with the straight shot run of a buss bar. You have two options here. One is to cut a hole in the F-645 stiffener. If you do this, be sure to insulate the buss bar in this area, and the edge of the stiffener. (There is a variable length edge grommet material for this that you cut to length, then run it around the inside of the hole, butting the ends together.) The other option is to cutt the buss bar and run a wire, of appropriate size to carry the load currents at that point in the circuit, between the two buss parts. I found that a piece of light angle alum riveted across the bottom of the F-668 bulkhead (tilt up canopy) was a good point to return ALL panel grounds too. While this is electrically an airframe ground, I also hard wired it back to the same point that the battery was attached to the airframe, just to be sure I didn't have grounding problems. While there has been much talk about using contuits for the strobe wires, I simply ran the Whalen cables in the most convenient spot I could, then connected their shields to the airframe on the power supply mounting screw. My strobe powersupply is located on the cockpit floor between the battery (on the firewall) and the F-682 power quadrant. I can't hear it operating while flying (I wear headsets), and there is no noise in the radios or intercomm circuits. IMHO, the conduit is an overkill. In my aircraft, I've used LCD radios and instrumentation whereever possible. (These are very visible in the direct sunlight of a very sunlit cockpit.) Some of these instruments require their backlights ON during the daytime, and then under then panel dimmer control during night operations. This switchover between the two circuits is acheived by using a relay driven by the nav light switch. Thos instruments and radios that have this requirement, have their lighting circuits wired to the relays amature. The outside contacts are then wired to the protected side of a breaker, and the controlled side of the panel light dimmer circuit. Another area that can cause potential cockpit hazards is the landing light circuit. Most of us want to put nice big, bright , halogen bulbs way out in the wings. These lights draw upwards to 10 amps EACH, and have inrush current spikes 5-6 times that amount (over 50 AMPS!) if you try to switch these bulbs ON with a conventional switch, it's only a matter of time before the switch will fail. And it may fail distructively, possibly causing a fire in the cockpit. The solution to this problem is to install a relay to turn these power hungry items ON and OFF. Available through most automotive (the magic word) sources is a Potter & Blumfield relay that is continuously rated 40 Amps DC, that also has the ability to switch upwards to 70 Amp DC spikes.(The P & B part number is VF4-45F11 and it's available through Newark Electronics or most other electrical supply houses. They cost about $6.80 each.) To be redundent, I used two of these SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) relays, one for each lamp ciurcuit (hi beam & low beam). Hope this has been helpful and adds to the information I've supplied in the electrical schematic that I've sent out to peple on the RVlist. Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (652 Hrs in 1.5 Years, Can't put it away!) wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: WStucklen(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
>s there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I'm >thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney >list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as >they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood lights, >and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine down on >the panel. >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my >whole idea is down the drain. >Any info regarding? >John D RV6 John: Ultra bright LED's are available, and if enough are used, could possibly light up the panel. They can be dimmed just like any other light bulb, but are sensitive to the amount of current that goes through them, so you must use a sresistor in series to limit the current.. They are, however, polarity sensitive: there is a plus and minus side to them. They can be wired in parallel to get higher intensity, but be sure to put a a resistor in series with each of the LEDs so one does not hog all the current. It would be more efficient to wire them in series as the forward voltage is only about 2.2 volts.To protect for the case of a single bulb failure in a series circuit, multiple circuits of series LED's, wired in parallel, should ensure a minimal lighting redundency. Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV wstucklen(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com>
Subject: What Can I Do? And an introduction.
Andy writes: >I really think the new pre-punched tail kits are going to be a hit. Tom got a >call the other day from an experienced builder who had recieved one of the >first kits and already had it built. He said it took him 80 hours to build >and he was thinking about ordering another empennage while he was waiting for >the wings to arrive. >The RV-8 is getting closer to being ready to sell. We just finished putting >together the last of the tail and have been shipping aluminum to the company >that does our punching for us. Now comes the plans and manual. Luckily it >will be similar to the RV-6 so it shouldn't take too long. We may not meet >the schedule Van had in the RVator but we'll be real close. >Andy Hanna >AHanna2(at)aol.com Hi Andy. I want to say it's great you're on the list! I understand Van's is a little sensitive to the Internet, so I hope we all have enough sense not to refer to any of your postings when dealing with Van's. I see your involvement as a real plus for all of us. Steve Johnson Waiting on the RV-8 spjohnson(at)mmm.com ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ From: aol.com!AHanna2(at)matronics.com Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 02:28:32 -0500 Subject: Re: RV-List: What Can I Do? And an introduction. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Cockpit lights
Bob, What I have in mind is the LEDs in the JC Whitney, 16 LEDs in a plastic case to mount inside the rear window of your car. It says they will operate on 12 volts neg grnd. At a price of 7.99 (plus frt etc), I figured I couldn't go far wrong. As to the 'spot light' effect, I assume that in use as a 3rd taillight, they would not be spots nor similar to laser, I'll see. I am using your dimmer (as in Sport Aviation June 93), It has functioned perfectly so far, I may blow it when I start exper. with this my latest hair brained scheme. I take it I will need the constant current circuit to dim the LEDs. For your info., when I discussed your ideas of fusing, wiring etc with a neighbor just getting started, He asked me why I didn't use them. My answer, it wasn't known to me at that time, but that I would use it if I were to rebuild now. He is going to use your ideas to save wt, complexity, dollars, space, and frustration. That's a lot of savings! >with the following caveats: >LEDs are a CURRENT driven device . . . not voltage . . . dimming becomes >a matter of controlling voltage into a series circuit consisting of one >or more LEDs in series with a resistor that provides an increase in >dynamic impedance so that common, variable voltage dimmers can be used >for LEDs. In layman's lingo, this simply means some modifications to >contemporary dimming hardware to get somwhat linear dimming response from >the dimmer knob. . . >If there's some interest, I'll >publish constant current dimmer circuit for LEDs . . . > > Bob . . . > AeroElectric Connection > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: wiring
Ed, I gave up and discarded the 'buss bar' idea for my c/b. It was too much of a hassle to align it all up, plus the idea of undoing everything in case one c/b went bad was rather intimidating. I settled on the wire from one to the other. I'm already glad I did, had to go in there once. You might give some thought to Bob Nuckolls type of set up, where the buss bar, fuse block etc is all combined. By all means, use a block for your grounds, I'm left with the opinion that there are more ground wires than power wires! John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Gene Gottschalk (286-0708)" <geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Schoolin'?
As a former, and current Orndorff student I agree, George and Becki convinced me I would have no problem building. The video's are indispensable also. False economy to not buy them, they will easily pay for themselves in replacement parts not purchased. Gene, RV6a, finally drilled the first holes in the firewall! ==================================== >Matt, >Becki and I like to think that our 1 and 2 days workshops are good and our >students do also. We also have a starter kit if a workshop is not what you >are looking for . Call us at 301-293-1505 to get more info....George & Becki >Orndorff > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Derrick L. Aubuchon" <n184da(at)cctrap.com>
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
John Ammeter wrote: > > >Hi everyone- > > > >I'm putting together another order and am curious if anyone has installed > >the primer solenoid that Frank Justice talks about in the Archives in place > >of a manual primer. From what I can gather it would be cheaper and > >eliminates the primer line in the cockpit. Anyone done this? What can you > >share with me and the list? > > > >Thanks in advance. > > > >Bill > > > I installed the electric primer solenoid after I had a broken primer line at > the top of the gascalater (sp?). That got me to thinking about all the > "what if's" like what if the gas line had broken inside the cockpit. Also, > I wasn't getting consistent amounts of prime with the manual push/pull pump. > > Bill Amos of Colorado had installed the electric solenoid on his RV-4 and > wrote about it in the Rocky Mountain Newsletter. I talked to him about it > and immediately ordered one for myself. > > It's actually cheaper to install the electric solenoid. > > I'll send you a copy of an article that I wrote about the solenoid by > private e-mail. Not sure if everyone wants attachments sent to the entire > rvlist. > > John Ammeter > ammeterj(at)ammeterj.seanet.com > Seattle WA, USA > RV-6 N16JA > Flying 5 years I would be interested in a copy.....Thanks!! -- Derrick L. Aubuchon n184da(at)cctrap.com N184DA(at)aol.com 74722.1560(at)compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: dougm@physio-control.com (Doug Medema)
Subject: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
I have been finishing up my first wing and am not sure about the order of all the washers and spacers. I decided it would be nice to have exploded drawings of each place where a bolt is used (other than just the standard single AN960-10 washer under an AN365-1032 nut). I believe there are six places on each wing where this would be useful: Bellcrank to aileron; Bellcrank to stick; Bellcrank center; Aileron inboard mount; Aileron outboard mount; and Aileron to bellcrank. I have attempted to do an ASCII art exploded drawing of each. I would appreciate any verifications and cor- rections to these. Bellcrank to aileron: === AN3-10A (bolt) -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) --- 5702-75-060 (washer) ============= F3414M (rod end bearing) --- 5702-75-060 (washer) -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) --- AN960-10 (washer) === AN365-1032 (nut) Bellcrank to stick: === AN3-10A (bolt) -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) --- 5702-75-060 (washer) ============= M3414M (rod end bearing) --- 5702-75-060 (washer) -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) --- AN960-10 (washer) === AN365-1032 (nut) Bellcrank center: === AN4-21A (bolt) -------- (1/8 inch angle) | | | | Spacer | | ======= AN218-P4 (bearing in bellcrank) | | | | Spacer | | -------- (1/8 inch angle) --- AN960-416 (washer) === AN365-428 (nut) Aileron inboard mount: === AN3-10A (bolt) -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) | | | | Spacer | | ----- AN970-3 (washer) --- AN960-10 (washer) ============= W413 (aileron mounting bracket) --- AN960-10 (washer) -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) --- AN960-10 (washer) === AN365-1032 (nut) Aileron outboard mount: === AN3-10A (bolt) -------- A606 (bracket on aileron) | | Spacer --- AN960-10 (washer) ============= W414 (aileron mounting bracket) --- AN960-10 (washer) -------- A606 (bracket on aileron) --- AN960-10 (washer) === AN365-1032 (nut) Aileron to bellcrank: === AN3-10A (bolt) -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) | | | | Spacer --- AN960-10 (washer) ============= F3414M (rod end bearing) --- AN960-10 (washer) | | Spacer -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) --- AN960-10 (washer) === AN365-1032 (nut) Addition comments: I don't believe this last one is actually shown in the plans. I also have four 5702-95-30 washers which are similar in size to the AN970-3 washer but thinner. Where do they get used? Finally, is it ok to use multiple washers in place of short spacers such as on the aileron outboard mount? Thanks for your help. Any takers on doing this for other locations on the plane? Doug Medema RV-6A looking for a wing cradle for storage. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: RV4BILDR(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: WTB: Rivet Squeezer & Questions
>n Get the 3" avery squeezer, it works great and gives you access to some hard to reach rivets while not denying you access to small work areas. No flex is noted with the 3" grig. Mike Fusealage for '4 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Band saws
Glenn, Unless you just want to spend the money for a band saw, you really don't need one. Or rather, it is not a neccessity. I used a hand jig saw that I had. After you mark your outline etc, cover it with masking tape (protects the metal) and cut away. Either way, you are going to smooth the edges with a buffer wheel or emory cloth. But the hand held jig saw and a hack saw did all of mine. John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com>
Subject: Primer "Fish Eyes"
'Listers -- I had my second "go 'round" with priming over the weekend, and while it went a whole lot better than the first session, I'm still not totally thrilled with the results. The primary problem at the moment is that the primer has developed "fish eyes"...little round spots where it's obvious that the primer hasn't stuck. I primed a dozen parts or so, and some are better than others. I Alumiprep'd (2:1 solution), waited 24 hours, then primed with Endura Strontium Chromate primer. I did NOT Alodine. My questions are as follows; 1) What is the likely source of the problem? Was it that I didn't Alumiprep them adequately, or is it likely some sort of contaminant in the primer itself? The spray gun is new, and I have a feeling that there was some oil left over from the manufacturing process. 2) Do the fish eyes indicate some systemic problem, one that might result in the rest of the primer coming off prematurely? 3) Do the fish eyes have a serious negative impact on corrosion proofing, at least to the point where I should consider doing them over again? Unfortunately, the worst offenders seems to be the HS-610 and HS-614. The only other thing I can think of that I might have done wrong was not wait long enough after the primer was mixed. The manufacturer talks about "induction time" of 30 minutes, which I assume means "wait time", and I probably only waited 20 mins. or so. If I can handle the ugly appearance, I'm inclined to leave them as is...I think I'll make things worse if I try to clean them up. Once the HS is assembled, I may sand down and re-prime the visible areas, but otherwise, I'm not inclined to try and re-do. BTW, it looks to me as though I'm still putting the primer on too thick...the parts that look the best are the ones where you can hardly tell the primer is on, at least when the primer is being applied (it seems to darken as it cures). Thought that might be a useful tip for others at the some point in the process. As this is not a "what kind of primer should I use?/should I prime?" question, I thought that the topic would be of general interest to the list. If you don't agree, then you should reply directly to me at the address noted below; Thanx!! Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Assembling HS Skeleton" terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
You wrote: > >Rusty, >I agree with your assessment. I have the two mini eyeball lights, and their >drawback is that they are white. Good for setting up the cockpit etc, but >bad for the night vision. I have many that are internally lit. But the >cost difference on some of them I didn't live with (120 to 165 for internal >light?). Unfortunately, this applied to such as a/s, alt, att. ind., >etc-those you really want on final etc. The post lights are ok, but as >clumsy as I am, I'd have some broken off in no time. The eyebrows are good, >but like the post, 20.00 per inst leaves me looking for something cheaper >IF IT WILL WORK. There in my quest for something along the red LED flood >light vein. >Thanks for the imput. >John D > >>Here's my answer and you probably won't like it.....Internally light as many >>instruments as you can. I've flown my 4 alot at night and use 2 mini eyball >>lights >>to "flood" the cockpit. There ok but not great. I have a battery flood >>(Red) to read maps and such and as emergency backup. The best are still >>internally lighted. Problem is they tend to be expensive. I don't know >>about the led's. >> >>Regards: >>Rusty Gossard >>N47RG RV-4 Flying >> >> > > You can buy light wedges that fit between the panel and instruments for $39.00 each at Gulf Coast/ Pacific Coast Avionics. They come in 2 1/4 and 3 1/8 sizes. Ed Cole ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Shelby1138(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Primer
I have a question about Alodining. A couple of guys here alodined there ribs and other parts in their wings, but I believe this is all they did. There doesn't seem to be any additional primer, only a gold tinted or bonded appearance to the parts. What is the consensus on just alodining? Also, I am hoping to buy my fuselage this summer/year and was wondering if anyone knew whether a pre-punch or drilled option was forthcoming. Shelby in Nashville ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Elevator control horns
I would definitely not elongate the hole. Either rivet or weld a doubler plate on there or weld the hole and re-drill it. I don't know that much about welding so I don't know if that would be strictly kosher, but I'm sure you could find out from welder-types. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Band saws
> Many people build with no bandsaw at all, though I've found it to be _very_ > helpful. Unless there's something at a later stage to justify more expense, > I say get the cheapie. You will use it enough that a "cheapie" won't hold up, regardless of size. In general the smaller ones aren't as good quality. The Sears table tops for example aren't likely to make it through a whole RV project. I'd get a good quality medium duty model (bench or floor), 12" or larger. Doesn't have to be variable speed, wood cutting speeds work fine for alum. Once you get into the wings you use the bandsaw a fair amount, and the fuselage, a LOT. Randall Henderson RV-6 PS. I have a delta 12" table top model, which I consider barely adequate. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Building Both Wings at Same
I built my wings separately and wish I had done them both at the same time. The reason is that once I was done with the first one I got cocky and plowed ahead on the second without referring to the plans/manual as much, and ended up making some dumb mistakes on the second one that were not on the first. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
>Bill , >I do no tknow what Frank did put Becki and I have put a primer soleniod in >all of our RV6s and can say that it works great. You bring a line off the >gasolator to the soleniod taht from the soleniod to the primer ports of the >engine. When you turn your electric fuel pump on you can operate the soleniod >to prime your engine.The soleniod cost about $30.If you are interested let >me know and I'll dig up a part # and phone # where you can order it as well >as a part list for the rest of the primer system...George Orndorff > > I am interested. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Gary Standley <Gary_Standley(at)ccm.ssd.intel.com>
Subject: Re:
Text item: Don't want to accuse anyone of being whiners but back in the good old days we built our own hinge brackets and a whole lot of other things too. Why is it the more someone tries to do for people the crankier they get. Lighten up, be nice to your wife like Joe says. From: lewisjw Subject: Frustrated - No HS Hinge Bracket Ron Caldwell wrote on March 8, 96 "no HS hinge bracket, very frustrated, need advice". Don't spend too much mental energy worrying over something you can't control. We all accept Van's best effort because it's good value. If you want everything now and perfect, order a GlasStar or someone else's $80 K kit. If you need to move ahead fast, order your wing kit now. Better yet, stock up on some good will with your wife by taking her out to dinner and a movie. Good luck. Joe Lewis, RV6, emp, Tampa Bay Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. From: Lewis <hqsocom.af.mil!lewisjw(at)matronics.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 96 09:21:09 EST intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24483 for Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Primer "Fish Eyes"
The alumiprep should be left on long enough so that water sprayed on afterward (when rinsing for example) doesn't bead up on it anywhere. You might want to check that, although with my primer (Courtauld's epoxy) the result of inadequate etching isn't fish-eyes, it just doesn't stick as well. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: left elevator
>Folks, Had a real productive day...until....I had to make those pesky bends >to close the left elevator from the trim tab cutout...&*%$# > >This was last weekend.....called van's...they said cut off the unsightly >(down right ugly) tabs and replace with a homemade rib. Has anyone out there >done this? any tips/suggestions on how to go about this. > >I was thinking about making a block of wood to fit then bend .025 over it. >Right track?? > > >don (RV6...emp almost done....wings just shipped from Vans...ordered 11/30/95) When you do this, remember the modification for the trim tab as published in the June 1995 RVator page 14. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: left elevator
On Sun, 10 Mar 1996 nowakod(at)VNET.IBM.COM wrote: > Folks, Had a real productive day...until....I had to make those pesky bends > to close the left elevator from the trim tab cutout...&*%$# > > This was last weekend.....called van's...they said cut off the unsightly > (down right ugly) tabs and replace with a homemade rib. Has anyone out there > done this? any tips/suggestions on how to go about this. > > I was thinking about making a block of wood to fit then bend .025 over it. > Right track?? I tried doing it that way and ruined a lot of aluminum. I bought on of those little $26 bending brakes from US Tool and it worked like a champ. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart rv-6 sn 23744 N601DB fuselage in jig ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frankv(at)pec.co.nz
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: cockpit lights
In <9603102240.AA33146(at)huey.cadvision.com>, on 03/10/96 at 03:36 PM, "Dave Mumert" said: >If you parallel LED's to get higher intensity be sure to put a a >resistor in series with each of the LEDs so one does not hog all the >current. It would be more efficient to wire them in series as the >forward voltage is only about 2.2 volts. The down-side of having them in series is that if one fails open-circuit, then you lose all the lights on that circuit. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read." PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax) | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!" ------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Fuse Jig advice needed
On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, Chester Razer wrote: > I'm constructing my fuse jig and I have a ? about the L shaped 2x4 > crossmembers. Justice notes indicate the upright leg of the 2x4 > crossmembers should all be the same, 3 1/2 ". I planed my 2x4's in order > to get a uniform thickness and height and that upright leg now measures 3 > 1/16". > > Will that smaller dimension cause problems when jigging the fuse. No. You can use any dimension you want. Just imagine that you are creating a perfectly horizontal plane('plane' as in geometry, not airctaft ). The height of the plane does not matter. Your main longerons rest on this plane. My jig had already built 4 airplane by the time I got it, and may of the crossmembers were a bit warped. Therefore I'm not relying at all upon the tops of the crossmembers. my 'perfectly horizontal plane' is about 1/8" above them. Best Regards, Dave Barnhart ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
> I have attempted to > do an ASCII art exploded drawing of each. I > would appreciate any verifications and cor- > rections to these. -- snip -- > Bellcrank center: > === AN4-21A (bolt) > -------- (1/8 inch angle) > | | > | | Spacer > | | > ======= AN218-P4 (bearing in bellcrank) > | | > | | Spacer > | | > -------- (1/8 inch angle) > --- AN960-416 (washer) > === AN365-428 (nut) > Doug, I noted that Van's drawing shows the spacers on either side of the AN218 bearing to be equal in size. BAC's specifications show the spacers to be different sizes. The smaller goes (if I remember correctly) on the top of the bearing. The longer spacer goes on bottom. I don't remember the lengths of the spacers off hand, but I'll check if someone confirms that this is correct. I do know that mine fit perfectly using the different sizes. Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three times. Did I miss something? B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Gene Gottschalk ((301) 286-0708)" <geneg(at)rattler.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
Doug, Your drawings look like the way I did it. I want to add, though, where the aileron push tube connects to the aileron there is quite a variety of ways I've seen the spacers placed. I agonized over it for some time. I was at this critical juncture last year just before OSH. A quick survey (albeit long walk through the RV tie-down area) revealed every possible combination of spacers to the tip side, spacers to the root side and spacers split in the middle. The bottom line is to position the push tube so it doesn't interfere with anything. On mine I had to cut the long spacers into two pieces, of different't lengths to get the correct fit. Maybe there is a reason the plans were vague. :-) -Gene, RV6a ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Thomas N. Martin" <103212.65(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: COWL FLAPS
I now have about 15hrs on my RV-4 with a cowl flap. I like it a lot as I can maintain engine temps much better. For example. without flap cylinder head temps of 200 to 240 and oil temp below 140 at OAT of 15F With the cowl flap cylinder temps 275 to 300 and oil temp up to 200f. I also have an oil door so that I can control oil temp independent from cowl flap. If I was to do it again I would do the cowl flap first and then see if I needed oil door. I will be taking oil door off for summer use. Two added benefits to a cowl flap 1. GREATLY reduces shock cooling during descents. 2. By unhooking the cable I can drop the door and make minor engine adjustments. ie idle and mixture. One problem that I have not solved is a harmonic vibration that is occuring at indicated speeds of over 180mph when flap is fully closed. there is just too much air trying to get out. I am going to "clean" up the outlet area around the exhuast pipes this summer and see if that helps. I might also install some extra stiffeners on the flap itself. I have seen no significant increase in speed. Tom Martin RV-4 95hrs and climbing. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: wiring
>Ed: Have you checked out the AeroElectric connection? Bob Nuckolls has >some good ideas on wiring and buss bars. If I would have followed his >advice, I would have saved $400-450 and quite a bit of weight and Sounds good, how do I contact AeroElectric? >complexity. I used a flattened copper tubing across the tops of the circuit >breakers and switch circuit breakers, ah la Tony Bingalis (sp). Using this >method makes removing one bad CB very difficult. At another location, I How did you connect them? Solder? Long screws? >used a Radio Shack terminal block that has screws for attaching wires, >either "U" shaped or ring terminals. I beleive that ring terminals are the >"approved" method of attachment. Over this terminal block, I fabricated an >aluminum cover that I attached with #6 screw to protect against shorting out. The "Ahhhh" light is coming on (albeit dimly) Thanks! Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: -6 SLIDING CANOPY DETAILS
>Wow, it ain't even close. The part matches the plan. Those two facts have >me scared, because usually it means I have a problem. I have tried moving it >up, down, sideways, forward, backwards, you get the picture. It fits well >near the top, but is at least an inch away from the skin at the bottom. Try swapping the left and right pieces. My kit came with the 6111L & 6111R pieces marked opposite. The flanges face backward and the more curved portion is at the top. I happened to be in Portland about that time and toured the factory and mentioned the problem to Tom. He pulled the 6111's that they make the kit from and THEY were backwards. They probably shipped quite a few that way. BTW, he also mentioned that this isn't a structural part, it just keeps some goober from leaning on the skin and denting it. So just "make it fit". -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "David A. Barnhart" <barnhart(at)crl.com>
Subject: I lost a friend today
I've just learned that I lost a good friend in the crash of his Varga Kachina yesterday. Doug Donaldson, owner of Aircraft Parts of Arizona was kind of the hub in a big circle of homebuilders in Northwest Phoenix, AZ. He will be missed. I hate to lose good friends this way. Please, everyone, be careful out there. Dave Barnhart ________________________________________________________________________________
From: frankv(at)pec.co.nz
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: cockpit lights
In <96Mar11.010603-0800pdt.206217-18663+587(at)orb.direct.ca>, on 03/11/96 at 01:10 AM, direct.ca!KingD(at)matronics.com (David W.S. King) said: >>John: >>My electronic know how is a little rusty, but I think your idea is do >drain. LEDs are a solid state device, and I believe they are either >on or off. > >>Mick >You can change the resistor's around a bit to change the brightness, >but I have never heard of using a rheostat to do so. What I have seen >in led lighting was a multy position switch that cut in more or less >LRDS. There are leds which are very bright to the point of being >painfull to look at so they do vary a bit. Another option is to pulse the LED on and off very quickly. By varying the mark/space (on/off) ratio, you can vary the average brightness of the LED. My electronics isn't up to it, but I think it should be easy to design a circuit which uses a variable resistor (aka pot, potentiometer, rheostat) to do this. To avoid visible flickering, the minimum speed should be above 25Hz. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ frankv(at)pec.co.nz | "Knowledge=Power=Energy=Matter=Mass; Frank van der Hulst | A good bookshop is just a genteel Software Engineer | Black Hole that knows how to read." PEC(NZ) Ltd (Cardax) | Terry Pratchett, "Guards! Guards!" ------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Band saws
>My partner and I are tooling-up to build an RV-6, and are currently >considering band saw options. Is a table top saw, say 10", adequate for >our needs, or do we want a full-size. I realize that the bigger tool is >generally always nicer, but we are interested in what we really need, >and can get by with. Any opinions would be appreciated. > > I've been using a 10" tabletop model, and bigger would be nicer, but not neccessary. When cutting stock that's bigger than 10", I just cut it a bit longer on an angle, flip it around, and cut to fit. I haven't had any problems with it, and it only cost $100. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: RV-List - Dimming LEDs
LEDs will dim using a simple rheostat. They do have a minimum voltage requirement, so you probably won't get the same nice linear reponse to knob position that you get with an incandescant lamp. Also, LEDs have low internal resistance. They *must* have a resistor in series with them or they won't last long. The ones intended for use as lights, like the tail light mentioned in the previous post, most likely have the resistor already built-in. Regards, Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: left elevator
On Sun, 10 Mar 1996 nowakod(at)VNET.IBM.COM wrote: > This was last weekend.....called van's...they said cut off the unsightly > (down right ugly) tabs and replace with a homemade rib. Has anyone out there > done this? any tips/suggestions on how to go about this. > > I was thinking about making a block of wood to fit then bend .025 over it. > Right track?? Yup. Simple. Sand the edges of the wood form round so you don't get too tight of a radius. Use the HS rib flanges as an example. I'd use just .016 for the ribs. May as well save a couple of grams where you can. I mounted my ribs flanges-in and used pop rivets. You could also mount them flanges-out and used AN rivets, if you can get in there. Cheers, Curt Reimer ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: What Can I Do???
Well the weekend's over, and I assume the dust has settled. It is very frustrating to me when things don't arrive on time. Take this as a good lesson! Van does a very good job but sometimes... That's why I ordered my wing kit 6 months in advance; about half way through the wings I ordered the fuselage and finishing kits and since I wanted the engine drop shipped from Lycoming I ordered that too. Man, bad day for the bank account. I would double any lead-time Van publishes. Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z I'll be flying next month if I can get a #$%# hanger! (I started looking 6mo ago; not enough lead time!) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dralle (Matt G. Dralle 510-606-1001)
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Wanted - Good RV...
Hello everyone, I need an RV. Yes, I know that I have one, but I need one that is flying or pretty darn close to flying. Mine is neither. Since I have a good engine, prop and instruments, I would ideally like to find an RV that was pretty much ready to fly except for these items. Obviously, I must have excellent workmanship. There was an RV-6A in the Western Flyer that met these parameters for $8950 but someone had snapped it up already. My order of preference in terms of model is RV-6, RV-6A, RV-4. I would like to use the plane for new product development, so while my heart will always be with the RV-4 (or -8), the RV-6s makes more sense. I might be interested in buying something ready to fly, but I would have to sell the stuff I have first (or trade!). Any leads would be *most* apperciated! Thanks, Matt Dralle ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: "Larson, Joe" <Joseph.P.Larson(at)nmb.norwest.com> (Joe Larson)
Subject: Elevator trim
I've been talking to another pilot regarding elevator trim control -- electric vs. manual. We're both a bit shy about an electric trim. So we think we've come up with an interesting idea to achieve the best of both worlds. If the servo adjusted the manual trim rather than directly controlling the trim tab itself, then you could still retrim manually. In case of a runaway servo or runaway autopilot, just pull the power to the servo and trim by hand. Can someone explain to me how Van's manual trim is controlled? I believe it's a vernier control similar to the mixture control in a C-172. Thus, I can imagine a number of rotations to adjust trim. Is this shown in the preview plans somewhere and I just didn't find it? I'm not sure the idea would work. I don't know if you would be able to adjust the manual control via a servo fast enough for an autopilot to adjust for light turbulence. Comments? -Joe -- Joe Larson ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: COWL FLAPS
> >One problem that I have not solved is a harmonic vibration that is occuring at >indicated speeds of over 180mph when flap is fully closed. there is just too >much air trying to get out. I am going to "clean" up the outlet area around the >exhuast pipes this summer and see if that helps. I might also install some extra >stiffeners on the flap itself. > >I have seen no significant increase in speed. > >Tom Martin RV-4 95hrs and climbing. > Tom: I have been considering a flap system for my 4. One concern I, and others have, is the prolonged effect of the air pushing out on the cowl. I have already had failures of the extruded hinge behind the prop without a cowl flap. Adding more outward pressure on our cowls may create more hinge failures over time and add one more thing to maintain. The problem here is you have to do it, then wait to see if it breaks. Regards: Rusty Gossard RV-4 N47RG Flying ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Re: Cockpit lights
Hi all: Here's my own home-brewed way of lighting a cockpit: I use 2 of the ball-swivel lights from Van's, and put 4 drops of red glass tint on them to turn them red. A very nice setup, as one is on each side of the panel, near the windshield bow, above the cockpit rails, lessening any shadows. I also use a $15 dimmer I get from my Chevy dealer, as used in a S-10 pickup. It has a detent for a map light, formerly used for a dome light. This feature can be wired hot, so night-time pre-flight cockpit checks can be performed with the master off. If anyone wants the part #, I'll bring the box home tomorrow and post it. Check Six! Mark mlfred(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Band saws
From: snoopyar(at)usa.pipeline.com (DAVI HOWARD)
Glen, I have the RYOBY 10" and it has worked great. I haven't ran into anything that it doesn't cut. Davi -4 fuel tank (Prosealing) ________________________________________________________________________________
From: DMusgrave(at)swri.edu
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Subject: Primer "Fish Eyes"
Wrote: | The primary problem at the | moment is that the primer has developed "fish eyes"...little round | spots where it's obvious that the primer hasn't stuck. | 1) What is the likely source of the problem? Was it that I didn't | Alumiprep them adequately, or is it likely some sort of contaminant | in | the primer itself? | | Terry in Calgary I have had that problem intermittently throughout the years. I'd bet it's water in your air supply. If you are not using a dryer on the outlet of your compressor, that's a good bet. The dryer has made my results painting cars much more consistent. Let us know if that's it. Good luck! Dave ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Props
RV Listers: I bit the bullet today and ordered a fixed pitch metal Sensinich. In a month or so, I hope to have it installed and have some test data. I might have to wait until after Sun & Fun. If it works as well as I anticipate, I'll have a very pretty (64 laminate, looks similar to a Warnke) Props, Inc. prop for sale with a 4" extension, spinner and front and rear bulkheads. The spinner ran within .003" on a dial indicator when first installed and the cut-out for the prop measured .080. I'll also have a Felix Prop (I bought it for a spare) and a Landoll harmonic balancer. My true calibrated airspeed at full throttle at 7,500' is 180-182 mph on a 1080 empty weight RV-6 with a 150 hp Lycoming. Take off and climb with the Props, Inc prop are dissapointing and I intend to send the prop back and have it re-pitched to increase rpm's. As it stand now, it would probably work great on a 160 RV-6 that is a little lighter than mine and for an airplane that doesn't operate out of high density fields. Our DA can get to 5,500' in the summer. The Felix prop has better T.O. and climb but is slower in cruise. Anyone interested in these items can E-mail me at: BSkinner(at)ltec.net The props and extension are for 3/8" bolts. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Exhaust System
This weekend, I had some turn-downs welded on my Larry Vetterman (High Country Exhaust) stainless steel cross-over exhaust system. The system is now much quieter than with the pipes pointing straight back. This addition probably saved me buying a Bose headset. The 4 pipe system has turn downs but Larry said that this is not practical on the cross-over because the ball joint allows many different mounting positions. After the position is fixed, the turn downs can be easily fit. Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
>Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut >is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three >times. Did I miss something? >B F Gibbons >RV-6 (first wing) B F: Which bellcrank are you refering to? Bob Skinner ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: wiring
Hi Folks, AeroElectric Connection Bob Nuckolls 6936 Bainbridge Rd. Wichita, KS 67226-1008 72770.552(at)compuserve.com Sorry I don't have his phone number. I hear his book about wiring and electronics, etc is great. Just mailed for one today. $42 Best regards, Bill Costello -- ___ _____________________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \ X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \____________________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts (fwd)
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Several comments: 1) For the main bellcrank, you want to ensure that when you put in the bolts to attach the push/pull tubes, the the bolts do not hit the two support angles. If everything is perfect, you should be OK with equal spacers on top and bottom. On my RV4, I found one side that with the bolt installed in the push/pull tube to the control stick, that it would hit one of the angles. Not good. This could lock up a control. I simply installed the bolt from bottom with the nut on the top. I could also have remade the spacers and made the bottom spacer a little longer and the top shorter. "standard practice" is to have the bolts installed down but my IA and the DAR said this is not required. 2) For the hinges, make the spacers such that you have the 1/4 inch clearence between the wing tips and the flaps. That may mean adjusting the spacer length or number of washers. 3) For the push/pull tube to the aileron bracket. I spaced this one over so the rod end was more to the inboard side (fuselage side) so that it gave more clearance in the hole. 4) The special Seagstrom (four 5702-95-30) washers are the ones with a AN3 hole but a smaller outer diameter. These are used at one very critical place. They go on the push/pull tube that on the elevator push/pull tube that is between the torque tube and the bellcrank behind the baggage area. Put one of these washers on each side of the rod end on both rod ends. That is 4 washers total. These are needed because whey you move the control stick from full left to full right aileron, the torque tube moves a lot. This intermediate push/pull tube must rotate a lot. These small washers allow the rod end to rotate to its maximum. If you simply use a regular AN3 washer, the rod end bearing will hit the washer and come to a stop before the control stick is all the way left or right. When this happens, the bellcrank will be forced to flex. Then, with just a few moves of the stick left or right, the stop nut on the rod end will be forced to back off. Now the rod end is loose on the control stick. I just went throught this on my RV4. Even Tom at the factory did not know what these washers were for. Luckely someone else there filled him in. My kit was shipped before these washers came out. I think there are a lot of RV's out there with loose rod ends on this push/pull tube!! At final assembly, you will see what I mean. Make sure you move the control stick stop to stop, full left/right and while full fwd and back stick. Then make sure nothing rubs and the bellcrank does not flex and that the stop nuts stay tight. Do what you have to do to ensure that NOTHING will catch or rub when the controls are moved. Take into account that G-load and air loads will move things around a lot. What works at 1 G might hang up at 4 G's. Herman > From root Mon Mar 11 12:19:10 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 08:04:33 PST > From: physio-control.com!dougm(at)matronics.com (Doug Medema) > Message-Id: <9603111604.AA04073@physio-control.com> > To: rvlist(at)matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts > Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com > Precedence: junk > Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > I have been finishing up my first wing and am > not sure about the order of all the washers > and spacers. I decided it would be nice to > have exploded drawings of each place where > a bolt is used (other than just the standard > single AN960-10 washer under an AN365-1032 nut). > > I believe there are six places on each wing > where this would be useful: Bellcrank to > aileron; Bellcrank to stick; Bellcrank center; > Aileron inboard mount; Aileron outboard mount; > and Aileron to bellcrank. I have attempted to > do an ASCII art exploded drawing of each. I > would appreciate any verifications and cor- > rections to these. > > Bellcrank to aileron: > === AN3-10A (bolt) > -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) > --- 5702-75-060 (washer) > ============= F3414M (rod end bearing) > --- 5702-75-060 (washer) > -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > === AN365-1032 (nut) > > Bellcrank to stick: > === AN3-10A (bolt) > -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) > --- 5702-75-060 (washer) > ============= M3414M (rod end bearing) > --- 5702-75-060 (washer) > -------- W617 (bellcrank assembly) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > === AN365-1032 (nut) > > Bellcrank center: > === AN4-21A (bolt) > -------- (1/8 inch angle) > | | > | | Spacer > | | > ======= AN218-P4 (bearing in bellcrank) > | | > | | Spacer > | | > -------- (1/8 inch angle) > --- AN960-416 (washer) > === AN365-428 (nut) > > Aileron inboard mount: > === AN3-10A (bolt) > -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) > | | > | | Spacer > | | > ----- AN970-3 (washer) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > ============= W413 (aileron mounting bracket) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > === AN365-1032 (nut) > > Aileron outboard mount: > === AN3-10A (bolt) > -------- A606 (bracket on aileron) > | | Spacer > --- AN960-10 (washer) > ============= W414 (aileron mounting bracket) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > -------- A606 (bracket on aileron) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > === AN365-1032 (nut) > > Aileron to bellcrank: > === AN3-10A (bolt) > -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) > | | > | | Spacer > --- AN960-10 (washer) > ============= F3414M (rod end bearing) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > | | Spacer > -------- A607 (bracket on aileron) > --- AN960-10 (washer) > === AN365-1032 (nut) > > Addition comments: I don't believe this last one is > actually shown in the plans. I also have four 5702-95-30 > washers which are similar in size to the AN970-3 washer > but thinner. Where do they get used? Finally, is it ok > to use multiple washers in place of short spacers such > as on the aileron outboard mount? > > Thanks for your help. Any takers on doing this for > other locations on the plane? > > Doug Medema RV-6A looking for a wing cradle for storage. > > -- -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831 MS: 9530 fax: 512-838-1801 mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Primer "Fish Eyes" (fwd)
Date: Mar 11, 1996
Fish-eye's can be caused by the following: 1) Did you ever clean your project with something that has 'silicone' in it? Don't ever do that. It is almost impossible to get it all off and it will cause fish-eyes. 2) You are getting some oil from some where. It is either comming out of your compressor (which has oil in it) or there is oil film still on the metal. You need to properly filter the air out of the compressor. You can buy a small filter that attaches to the spray gun for about $10.00. A small red disposable plastic filter to trap water and oil. Check with your automotive paint supplier. Aluminum often has fish oil on it from the rollers at the factory. You need to clean first with a good soap and water before you Etch. 3) Any water from your compressor may also be doing this. You need a water trap of some sort. You need to cool and expand the hot air comming out of the compressor. They suggest at least 50 ft of metal pipe. Others have used a expansion chamber/water trap made out of PVC pipe (4 inch or so diam) capped of with inlet and outlets. Then run through a filter/water trap. I got a Sharp model. Then have the small disposable filter at the gun. If you do this. you will not have any problems. Herman > From root Mon Mar 11 14:46:40 1996 > Errors-To: bounces(at)matronics.com > Date: 11 Mar 96 11:55:15 EST > From: <sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com!Terryg(at)matronics.com> > To: > Subject: RV-List: Primer "Fish Eyes" > Message-Id: <960311165514_702420.204300_BHD54-41(at)CompuServe.COM> > Sender: owner-rv-list(at)matronics.com > Precedence: junk > Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com > > 'Listers -- I had my second "go 'round" with priming over the weekend, > and while it went a whole lot better than the first session, I'm still > not totally thrilled with the results. The primary problem at the > moment is that the primer has developed "fish eyes"...little round > spots where it's obvious that the primer hasn't stuck. I primed a > dozen parts or so, and some are better than others. I Alumiprep'd > (2:1 solution), waited 24 hours, then primed with Endura Strontium > Chromate primer. I did NOT Alodine. > > My questions are as follows; > > 1) What is the likely source of the problem? Was it that I didn't > Alumiprep them adequately, or is it likely some sort of contaminant in > the primer itself? The spray gun is new, and I have a feeling that > there was some oil left over from the manufacturing process. > > 2) Do the fish eyes indicate some systemic problem, one that might > result in the rest of the primer coming off prematurely? > > 3) Do the fish eyes have a serious negative impact on corrosion > proofing, at least to the point where I should consider doing them > over again? Unfortunately, the worst offenders seems to be the HS-610 > and HS-614. > > The only other thing I can think of that I might have done wrong was > not wait long enough after the primer was mixed. The manufacturer > talks about "induction time" of 30 minutes, which I assume means "wait > time", and I probably only waited 20 mins. or so. > > If I can handle the ugly appearance, I'm inclined to leave them as > is...I think I'll make things worse if I try to clean them up. Once > the HS is assembled, I may sand down and re-prime the visible areas, > but otherwise, I'm not inclined to try and re-do. > > BTW, it looks to me as though I'm still putting the primer on too > thick...the parts that look the best are the ones where you can hardly > tell the primer is on, at least when the primer is being applied (it > seems to darken as it cures). Thought that might be a useful tip for > others at the some point in the process. > > As this is not a "what kind of primer should I use?/should I prime?" > question, I thought that the topic would be of general interest to the > list. If you don't agree, then you should reply directly to me at the > address noted below; > > Thanx!! > > Terry in Calgary > S/N 24414 > "Assembling HS Skeleton" > terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com > > > > -- -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas AIX Network Performance Measurement/Analysis phone: TL 678-2831 outside: (512) 838-2831 MS: 9530 fax: 512-838-1801 mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Flap Hinge
Thanks to all of you for the info regarding the mod on the flap hinge. I cut out the eyelets and installed the half pins in from the center of the hing and it work beautifully. chet ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: electronic igition
A couple of weeks ago a posting was made regarding a soon-to-be electronic ignition option on new lycomings from Vans. Since then no mention has been made. Does anyone else have any info. chet razer, waiting on fuse kit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: chester razer <crazer(at)egyptian.net>
Subject: Re: left elevator
Just thought I'd throw in my experience with the left elevator and trim tab. Naturally my first attempt with the cut out from the left elevator skin was not a good fit and the business about folding the trim tab edges with a block of wood turned out to be a total disaster. FIX: got hold of a FLAT piece of .016". Then made a cardboard cutout using adjusted measurments from the first tab to make a cardboard template. IMPORTANT STEP: before bending the trail edge of the trim tab go ahead and bend the rib tabs on both ends of the trim tab with a couple blocks of wood and a vice. Or use a small break if you have one, this makes the bends perfect. Finally, use a break and wooden dowel to create the trail edge bend on the new and perfect trim tab. Final Note: Only wish I could redo the left elevator this way, will probably install a small rib like George and Becki mention in their tail video if after finishing am not happy with it. chet razer, fuse jig done, waiting on fuse kit ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Stuart Fraley <swfraley(at)alpha.comsource.net>
Subject: Re: left elevator
>I'd use just .016 for the ribs. May as well save a couple of grams where >you can. I mounted my ribs flanges-in and used pop rivets. You could also >mount them flanges-out and used AN rivets, if you can get in there. > >Cheers, >Curt Reimer > > If you mount them flange-out, how do you attach the trim tab control horn? Stuart Fraley Contemplating trim tab bending ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Harold Sutphin <hsutphin(at)ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator control horns
You could weld the hole closed (with a mig welder to localize the heat and keep the bracket from warping) grind it flat and re-drill. Check AC43-13 for acceptable repairs. This bracket can be easily inspected when you look at your hinges and rod end bearings. Slop in a control hinge can be a potential cause for flutter. Harold RV-6A Scott Gesele wrote: > > >Seems when I drilled the 1/4" hole for the center bracket I was off a little > >(1/8") I can > >force the bolt through by pushing on the control horn. I am tempted to > elongate > >the > >hole to make it fit. It's a little late to replace this part as I would > have to > >tear the entire elevator apart. > > > >Any help appreciated. > > > >Rick > > > > > A couple of thoughts come to mind. > > 1. If the hole is off in the horizontal, would you be able to adjust the > rod-end bearings to compensate for this? > > 2. If it off vertically, or the above doesn't work, why not have a doubler > piece of steel welded on and then re-drill the hole? > > 3. If it is the left elevator, there doesn't seem to be THAT many rivets to > drill out, to enable the skin to be peeled back, to buck the rivets on a new > elevator horn. > > There is a reason that Van specified a 1/4" bolt at this joint. This is an > attatchment point for a VERY important piece of aluminum that you will be > hauling around the sky. My personal standards would never allow for an > error like this to remain. I've made, and continue to make mistakes. There > is a time to reorder parts, work an acceptable solution into the mistake or > scrap the whole assembly. > > This is your A/C, only you can determine what is best for you. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com>
Subject: Cowl Flap to prevent shock cooling?
Has anybody mentioned the potential cowl flap benefit of reduced shock cooling in a rapid decent? I like the idea of the automatic VW driven thermostatic bi-metal device controling the flap (with CHT warning and an override via cable if anything went wrong). Would the VW device be responsive enough to prevent shock cooling? Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, H 519.746.9882 B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
You wrote- >Short note to Bill Costello in Chicago, sorry Bill, the Bill below just >took your position of having the most impressive signature page on the list. >Don't feel bad, no one stays on top forever :-))) > >And to Bill Garrett, congradulation on being the new champion!!!! > >Joe Hine Thanks for the vote Joe! I designed this primarily just to see what could be done and for my brother-in-law who's in Germany flying King Air 200's for Uncle Sam in and out of Bosnia, etc. and who often talks of building and RV (although I think the tail of his would sit on the ground). I must admit that I was inspired by Bill Costello's work though. On the downside, my better half gets upset everytime she sends e-mail to her quilting friends and forgets to cancel the signature feature first (something about thinking they might think she's a bit weird!). I don't think she's totally come to grips with the idea that real and normal people build airplanes although one of the reasons she likes the idea is how fast I can get her to quilt shows around the US when its done! The price we pay! Bill /```|`\ /| _ _ _ _ / | \ || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` || `//`````````````\\`````````` \| // \\ _//_ _\\_ ( _`: ( _`: ````` ````` Husband and Father Mathematics Teacher Airplane Builder - working on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid reply
You wrote- >Bill , >I do no tknow what Frank did put Becki and I have put a primer soleniod in >all of our RV6s and can say that it works great. You bring a line off the >gasolator to the soleniod taht from the soleniod to the primer ports of the >engine. When you turn your electric fuel pump on you can operate the soleniod >to prime your engine.The soleniod cost about $30.If you are interested let >me know and I'll dig up a part # and phone # where you can order it as well >as a part list for the rest of the primer system...George Orndorff George- Thanks for the info. Actually I'm a long way from installing this and I already have ordered it from Wicks after reading John Ammeter's reply. I expect to see you in about a month at the RV forum in Frederick (assume you'll be there) and if I have further questions I check with you then. BTW, for any of you RV-listers within driving or flying distance of Frederick,MD I heartily recommend the RV forum held there the weekend before Sun-n-Fun. I believe Becky posted a notice about it earlier. It's an opportunity to (a) show off you already completed plane (b) become convinced you CAN and MUST build one if you're fence sitting (c) get your batteries recharged to spend more time in the shop building to get your plane done, and/or (d) pick the brains of some rather knowledgeable people (including Van the last time it was held) about building these wonderful machines. It's where I made my decision to build and I'm glad to see it back on the schedule. Bill /```|`\ /| _ _ _ _ / | \ || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` || `//`````````````\\`````````` \| // \\ _//_ _\\_ ( _`: ( _`: ````` ````` Husband and Father Mathematics Teacher Airplane Builder - working on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: bill garrett <bgarrett(at)fast.net>
Subject: Re: Signature chatter
>>> /```|`\ >>> /| _ _ _ _ / | \ >>> || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ >>> || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ >>> _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ >>> <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / >>> || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` >>> || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` >>> || `//`````````````\\`````````` >>> \| // \\ >>> _//_ _\\_ >>> ( _`: ( _`: >>> ````` ````` >I have to say I completely agree. Wonder if he has it copywrited? >Would like to steal it and add a few touches of my own!! :) > >Bill Costello >-- > > ___ _____________________________ > \ \ _ _ / / > \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \ > X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) / > o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \ > \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / > \____________________________\ Bill C - Rest assured there is no copyright to the signature! Use it as you wish; isn't that what this list is all about anyway? Besides, from your signature, I think you're going to have to move a wheel and put a different slant to your version anyway :) I for one would like to see what you can do with it! Bill G /```|`\ /| _ _ _ _ / | \ || ,* | ````~~.._ _ / | \ || _ _,*_ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ / ```~~~..._/ | \ _||_.~`````` Bill Garrett <::::::::> \ <_ _| RV-6A Pottstown, PA N153BG | / || \ ..~~~~~~~......_ _ _ _ _.|.~~`` || `~._ '.....................> _ _...~~~~````` || `//`````````````\\`````````` \| // \\ _//_ _\\_ ( _`: ( _`: ````` ````` Husband and Father Mathematics Teacher Airplane Builder - working on the wings ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: wiring
> >>Ed: Have you checked out the AeroElectric connection? Bob Nuckolls has >>some good ideas on wiring and buss bars. If I would have followed his >>advice, I would have saved $400-450 and quite a bit of weight and > >Sounds good, how do I contact AeroElectric? > >>complexity. I used a flattened copper tubing across the tops of the circuit >>breakers and switch circuit breakers, ah la Tony Bingalis (sp). Using this >>method makes removing one bad CB very difficult. At another location, I > >How did you connect them? Solder? Long screws? > >>used a Radio Shack terminal block that has screws for attaching wires, >>either "U" shaped or ring terminals. I beleive that ring terminals are the >>"approved" method of attachment. Over this terminal block, I fabricated an >>aluminum cover that I attached with #6 screw to protect against shorting >out. > >The "Ahhhh" light is coming on (albeit dimly) Thanks! >Ed Bundy Ed: You can E-mail Bob at 72770.522(at)compuserve.com I highly recommend his book. I wish I would have had it when I built my first RV. I connected the CB's to the flattened copper tube with the little screws that came with the CB's. I located the Radio Shack terminal block on top of the radio "box" (the cover I made over my radios so that water would not drop on them & short them out) so that I could easily add additional wires to any new item I might install. (tip-up canopy) Bob Skinner RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: "Mark D Hiatt" <OttoPilot_MSN(at)msn.com>
Subject: Schoolin'!
I want to thank everyone for writing back about how best to learn the skills involved in building an RV6. I heard from folks just up the road about an hour or so and around the world. What a time we live in, huh? I've made arrangements to attend the Maryland EAA524 forum next month, and will also try to make the MSP show the week after. I really want to get a handle on what it is that I'll need to build a machine I'll be confident of, and not worried about for the rest of my life. There's something holy about Oshkosh, to me. I've decided to wait until then to buy my tail kit, spending the time between then and now accumulating tools and catalogs and knowledge. My wife, however, is telling everyone who'll listen that I'm off to Wisconsin for the summer, "To get a little tail". I'll have to have a talk with her. <> Thanks again for all of your input. I look forward to meeting many of you in person, next month. Mark D Hiatt OttoPilot_MSN Aviation Forum Manager, The Microsoft Network ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Zilik(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Primer "Fish Eyes"
Some help on fish eyes Never, never never use an air hose that has ever been used with an automatic oiler. Use a new hose and bypass the oiler (if installed) Use a desicant (sp) air dryer in line with the spray gun. This is only effective in moderate humidity (<50%) Even here a 8500 feet in Colorado (lowwwww humidity) I run into times the above dryer is not enough. When this happens a refrigerated dryer is needed. (Expensive!!!!!) I have a crude homemade one that works real well. I used a 5 gallon bucket and a placed a coil of soft copper tube inside. The tube exits at the top and bottom throug holes drilled int the bucket and sealed with RTV. The tube exiting the bottom of the bucket is fitted with a male disconnect ( the inlet) and the top tube has a gascolater type water seperator followed by a female quick connect.Fill the bucket with water and ice and you have a very effective dryer as the water will condense in the tubes and be collected in the colater. I use frozen gallon milk jugs for ice and throw the jug in the bucket and when done painting put the jug back in the freezer. A desicant filter is used at the gun for residual moisture protection. Hope this helps. Gary Zilik RV-6A ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: Royce Craven <roycec(at)ozemail.com.au>
Subject: cockpit lights
John, for what its worth. A bit of info on LEDs LEDs are solid state devices, but they have a linear responce (sort of) to current. Simply, the more current the brighter they get untill..... As far as I know you cannot wear these critters out, but too much current and its back to Radio Shack. The circuit you need is fixed resistor, so you don't blow the LED up and a variable resistor in series followed by the LEDs. Each LED will drop roughly 0.6V so you can't have too many. You could have 2 circuits and use a dual ganged variable resistor. LEDs have a positive and a negative. i.e. they won't work untill you connect them the right way around. Work with Ohms Law (Voltage = Resistance x Current) for your planes voltage. Try too limit max current to 15mA or so (experiment - there are many LEDs out there and they are very cheap). You can get bright LEDs that give out a lot of light for a small current. There are also a number of other colours other than red. Most LEDs do not get hot (well not very hot). As very little current is used you don't have to use the normal wire wound reostat style used in circuits with bulbs. v-------| / / Batt + ---^^^^------^^^^^---|-------i>|------i>|----------- -ve Try 12V 100R 10K. If you don't want to do the math, just joint them together and see what happens. (Not while flying, then again these are experimental aircraft.) If you want to know the math, post a message and I will post you a circuit and more details. All the best Royce Craven Melbourne OZ >John: >My electronic know how is a little rusty, but I think your idea is down the drain. LEDs are a solid state device, and I believe they are either on or off. > >Mick > >---------- >From: John Darby[SMTP:our-town.com!johnd(at)matronics.com] >Sent: Saturday, March 09, 1996 6:11 PM >To: rv-list(at)matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: cockpit lights > >Is there anyone that has worked up some experimental cockpit lights? I'm >thinking of attempting to modify some of the LED lights that J C Whitney >list for the third tail light for cars. They are probably too bright as >they come, but to blank out some and mount on the roll bar for flood lights, >and to mount some under the hood over the instrument panel, to shine down on >the panel. >The first question I have for anyone that may know is, will LEDs dim with a >dimmer reostat that adjust the voltage for dimming? If that is no, then my >whole idea is down the drain. >Any info regarding? >John D RV6 > > > > >Attachment Converted: I:\DOWNLOAD\RERV-Li4 > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Peter Bennett" <bennett(at)healey.com.au>
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Elevator trim
Before settling for electric elevator trim I asked someone at Vans whether it is possible to fly the plane with the trim hard over. Answer was "yes, no problem". Has anybody tried this????? Picking up on Joe's thought below, I will have "manual" trim back to the servo behind the baggage compartment bulkhead because electric was not an option at the time. I have considered driving a bellcrank with the servo, similar setup to the elevator pushrod. I would then use a manual control to move the bellcrank bodily fore and aft. If the aircraft really can be flown with full trim deflection, I won't bother. Peter Bennett Sydney Australia RV6 skinning fuselage > I've been talking to another pilot regarding elevator trim control -- electric > vs. manual. We're both a bit shy about an electric trim. So we think we've > come up with an interesting idea to achieve the best of both worlds. > > If the servo adjusted the manual trim rather than directly controlling the > trim tab itself, then you could still retrim manually. In case of a runaway > servo or runaway autopilot, just pull the power to the servo and trim by hand. > > Can someone explain to me how Van's manual trim is controlled? I believe it's > a vernier control similar to the mixture control in a C-172. Thus, I can > imagine a number of rotations to adjust trim. Is this shown in the preview > plans somewhere and I just didn't find it? > > I'm not sure the idea would work. I don't know if you would be able to adjust > the manual control via a servo fast enough for an autopilot to adjust for > light turbulence. > > Comments? > > -Joe > > -- > Joe Larson > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Wanted - Good RV...
Matt , By spring I will have a completed airframe ready for engine for sell, if you are interested call me at 301-293-1505 in the evenings....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: Ron Caldwell <74504.1365(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Aileron Trims
Well, I'm ready to order my Wing Kit. Before I do, I need to make a decision about Aileron Trims. Is this a good idea. If so, is manual or electric the best. Also, I plan to install a 2 axis autopilot. Are Airleron trims required for using autopilots? Would appreciate any comments. Thanks in advance for your help. Ron Caldwell RV6A ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: wiring (fwd)
Date: Mar 12, 1996
I used a copper (or was it brass?) bar bought at a hobby shop. They usually carry various bar stock. Get something at least 3/8 inch wide and maybe .062 thick. You mount this on the 'Line' side of the brakers or circuit breaker switches. I used the PB Circuit breaker switch that Van's sells. The disadvantage of using a metal bus strip is that to change one CB, you have to pull out all the CB's or disconnect the strip from all of them. Someone else pointed this out as well. Using simple loops of wire with crimp on ends is probably much simpler. It is also insulated so probably safer from accidental shorting if something comes in contact with it. The other disadvantage of the metal bus strip is that you have to drill the holes in the correct spacing to match the spacing on the CB holes. Herman > > I'd like to get some ideas on wiring; in particular how others wired up their > buss bars. I have a piece of copper for the main buss bar, but how did you > go about mounting it and keeping it insulated from the airframe? How did you > physically attach the various items to it? > > Also, do you use a buss bar of some type for the ground attachments? > > Please feel free to be detailed. > Thanks, Ed Bundy > -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: n21pe(at)ix.netcom.com (Peter B. Mortensen)
Subject: Primer "Fish Eyes" (fwd)
Subject: RV-List: Fish eye problem: It looks like you already have had many good responses to your "fish eyes". I have one more thing to add: On my air compressor I have the water trap. Then I have a T connection. In one side I have my little oiler device. That goes to a hose I use for my air tools. On the other side of the T fitting I have another "clean" hose which is used strictly for painting. Never the twain shall meet. Peter. _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
If you hold the bellcrank in you fingers by the sleeve you'll discover it does not need to move for the bellcrank to work properly, i.e. it can be jamed in a tight fit and the bearing will work fine. Using nylon lock washers does just that; there really is no need for castle nuts and pins, in fact the object is for the bellcrank to move freely not the shaft. Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Bob Skinner wrote: > > >Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut > >is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three > >times. Did I miss something? > >B F Gibbons > >RV-6 (first wing) > > B F: Which bellcrank are you refering to? Bob Skinner > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: n21pe(at)ix.netcom.com (Peter B. Mortensen)
Subject: Cowl Flaps
Hi RV-List: This is probably a stupid idea. Perhaps someone can explain why. On the cowl flaps, I gather they adjust the egress of the air from the cowl. Someone was concerned about the cowl blowing up like a balloon. (Or at least fatiguing when the cowl flaps were closed). What my question is; would it be better (or even work) to control the size of the inlets where air comes into the cowl rather than where it comes out? Peter __________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MMac1100(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: rvator
Hello,i am not building a rv yet.But was wondering if anyone has recieved the jan/feb issue of the rvator yet.Now back to lurking and gathering info. Thanks, Mike MacGregor ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Push Tube Travel
I need to know the amount of travel, in inches, for the aileron and elevator push tubes. >From the neutral position, how many inches does the aileron push tube move to achieve the full 32 deg up deflection? How many inches from center does it move to achieve the full 17 deg down? >From the neutral position, how many inches does the elevator push tube move to achieve the full 30 deg up deflection? How many inches from center does it move to achieve the full 25 deg down? (I'm looking at auto pilot installation). B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) N23ST - Reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Re: cockpit lights (fwd)
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Anyone that is close to buying instruments and wants them lighted may want to wait a while. I recall reading (I think in AOPA Pilot) that Cessna was going to make instrument suppliers provide internally lighted instruments. I think they wanted to do away with the post lights. I will try to double check on this. I also think they wanted the lamps to be user replaceable. This is all being done for Cessna's new 172, 182's, etc. I think it takes something like this to get vendors to build what we need. I think Cessna is also going to use a light that is hidden behind an a cover that goes over the dashboard and sticks out a few inches past the panel. There were some after market people selling these for Cessna's and Pipers. -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
> >Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut > >is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three > >times. Did I miss something? > >B F Gibbons > >RV-6 (first wing) > > B F: Which bellcrank are you refering to? Bob Skinner > Bob, The aileron bellcrank. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) N23ST - Reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
From: BHamlin1(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Band saws
I found a band saw to be very helpful. There are a lot of parts that have to be fabricated out of stock aluminum. I bought a Delta 10" saw at NHD, on sale, for $85.00 and it has paid for itself, IMHO, many times over. Brad Hamlin RV4 Empennage Walpole MA ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: Primer "Fish Eyes"
I've used two primers both with very good results. I use a DeVelbiss touch up gun, Scotch-brite the surfaces, MEK to clean. - PGM DP-40 comes in white, green both excellent - Sherman Williams Acid - Etch primer (green) excellent Fish Eyes haven't been a problem. Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: wiring
I used the PB CB's with switches sold by Van. I mounted them all in a row then used a 1/8" piece of AL 2024-T4 out of my scrap bucket as a buss bar connecting all the lower screws together. Left it a little long so I could attach the "hot" connection from the master relay. All power to devices gets wired to the top terminals of the CB's. You can stick about 4 - 5(max) connectors on one terminal but if you need more you can piggy back more than one wire on a terminal connector (stick several wires in before you squeeze). Seems to work great for me, eliminates a "buss bar" as you would think of one in the conventional sense. Dan Boudro, PE (electrical engineer - power) RV-4 N9167Z On Mon, 11 Mar 1996 aol.com!WStucklen(at)matronics.com wrote: > > >d like to get some ideas on wiring; in particular how others wired up their > >buss bars. I have a piece of copper for the main buss bar, but how did you > >go about mounting it and keeping it insulated from the airframe? How did > you > >physically attach the various items to it? > > > >Also, do you use a buss bar of some type for the ground attachments? > > > >Please feel free to be detailed. > >Thanks, Ed Bundy > > > > > > Ed: > There have been a bunch of articles in Sport Aviation by Tony Bingilus > (sp) covering this subject. He probably has the info in one of his book by > now. > I used a piece of 3/4" or 1" copper pipe and cut out, and flattened, the > copper 1/2" strip to make the buss bar. I have all the breakers in a row on > the right, lower part of the panel. They represent a "radio" bus, and a > "main" power bus for all other electrical components. I attached a piece of > copper across the top screw contacts of the breakers, using the screws that > came with the breakers. I then cut out the dividing area of the bus to get > the two seperate busses (radio and main). To prevent the possibility of > something dropping onto this bus and shorting it out to the grounded panel, I > covered the exposed buss bar areas between the breakers with shrink tubing. > A wire from the main buss to the 20 Amp radio master Circuit Breaker > Switch (and emergency bypass switch, located on the lower left side of the > panel), then back to the "radio buss" breakers, completes the positive side > of the radio buss circuit. The other side of the radio breakers then goes to > the individual radios. > In some cases (the nav & landing lights, pito heat, strobes, aux fuel > pump) I used circuit breaker switches that have their own mini copper power > buss. These switches are located on the lower left side of the panel and are > connected directly to the main buss with a piece of aviation quality #10 wire > and the appropriate connectors. In this case, the pice of #10 wire is bolted > to the main buss between two of the circuit breakers. > In some cases you may find that an airframe component, like the F-645 > stiffener behinf the instrument panel, interfers with the straight shot run > of a buss bar. You have two options here. One is to cut a hole in the F-645 > stiffener. If you do this, be sure to insulate the buss bar in this area, and > the edge of the stiffener. (There is a variable length edge grommet material > for this that you cut to length, then run it around the inside of the hole, > butting the ends together.) The other option is to cutt the buss bar and run > a wire, of appropriate size to carry the load currents at that point in the > circuit, between the two buss parts. > I found that a piece of light angle alum riveted across the bottom of the > F-668 bulkhead (tilt up canopy) was a good point to return ALL panel grounds > too. While this is electrically an airframe ground, I also hard wired it back > to the same point that the battery was attached to the airframe, just to be > sure I didn't have grounding problems. > While there has been much talk about using contuits for the strobe wires, > I simply ran the Whalen cables in the most convenient spot I could, then > connected their shields to the airframe on the power supply mounting screw. > My strobe powersupply is located on the cockpit floor between the battery (on > the firewall) and the F-682 power quadrant. I can't hear it operating while > flying (I wear headsets), and there is no noise in the radios or intercomm > circuits. IMHO, the conduit is an overkill. > In my aircraft, I've used LCD radios and instrumentation whereever > possible. (These are very visible in the direct sunlight of a very sunlit > cockpit.) Some of these instruments require their backlights ON during the > daytime, and then under then panel dimmer control during night operations. > This switchover between the two circuits is acheived by using a relay driven > by the nav light switch. Thos instruments and radios that have this > requirement, have their lighting circuits wired to the relays amature. The > outside contacts are then wired to the protected side of a breaker, and the > controlled side of the panel light dimmer circuit. > Another area that can cause potential cockpit hazards is the landing light > circuit. Most of us want to put nice big, bright , halogen bulbs way out in > the wings. These lights draw upwards to 10 amps EACH, and have inrush current > spikes 5-6 times that amount (over 50 AMPS!) if you try to switch these bulbs > ON with a conventional switch, it's only a matter of time before the switch > will fail. And it may fail distructively, possibly causing a fire in the > cockpit. > The solution to this problem is to install a relay to turn these power > hungry items ON and OFF. Available through most automotive (the magic word) > sources is a Potter & Blumfield relay that is continuously rated 40 Amps DC, > that also has the ability to switch upwards to 70 Amp DC spikes.(The P & B > part number is VF4-45F11 and it's available through Newark Electronics or > most other electrical supply houses. They cost about $6.80 each.) To be > redundent, I used two of these SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) relays, one > for each lamp ciurcuit (hi beam & low beam). > Hope this has been helpful and adds to the information I've supplied in > the electrical schematic that I've sent out to peple on the RVlist. > > Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (652 Hrs in 1.5 Years, Can't put it > away!) > wstucklen(at)aol.com > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Primer solenoid
George, I am interested in the info. I now have the push type with the tube of fuel inthe c/p. My gascolator came out some time ago. But am interested when you pot it. Thanks, John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator trim
Joe, You are right, the trim is a simple vernier like the mixure etc on many. There are very few turns to trim. If any thing, to me it's too sensitive at cruise. The other thing, it has play in the trim end. My trim tab has a play of 1/4 to 3/8 inch at trailing edge. The slop is in the cable between front knob and the rear mount. I haven't figured a way to get it out. It may be the cause of the trim variance at cruise. ie, always back and forth to try and get that level position. Hope this helps. John D ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: wiring
You wrote: > > >>Ed: Have you checked out the AeroElectric connection? Bob Nuckolls has >>some good ideas on wiring and buss bars. If I would have followed his >>advice, I would have saved $400-450 and quite a bit of weight and > >Sounds good, how do I contact AeroElectric? > >>complexity. I used a flattened copper tubing across the tops of the circuit >>breakers and switch circuit breakers, ah la Tony Bingalis (sp). Using this >>method makes removing one bad CB very difficult. At another location, I > >How did you connect them? Solder? Long screws? > >>used a Radio Shack terminal block that has screws for attaching wires, >>either "U" shaped or ring terminals. I beleive that ring terminals are the >>"approved" method of attachment. Over this terminal block, I fabricated an >>aluminum cover that I attached with #6 screw to protect against shorting >out. > >The "Ahhhh" light is coming on (albeit dimly) Thanks! >Ed Bundy > > Ed Bundy, The email address for Bob Nuckolls Aero Connection is 72770.552(at)compuserve.com Ed Cole RV6A N648RV Empennage ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Re: Wanted - Good RV...
You wrote: > > >Hello everyone, > >I need an RV. Yes, I know that I have one, but I need one that is flying >or pretty darn close to flying. Mine is neither. Since I have a good engine, >prop and instruments, I would ideally like to find an RV that was pretty much >ready to fly except for these items. Obviously, I must have excellent >workmanship. There was an RV-6A in the Western Flyer that met these parameters >for $8950 but someone had snapped it up already. My order of preference in >terms of model is RV-6, RV-6A, RV-4. I would like to use the plane for >new product development, so while my heart will always be with the RV-4 (or -8), >the RV-6s makes more sense. I might be interested in buying something >ready to fly, but I would have to sell the stuff I have first (or trade!). >Any leads would be *most* apperciated! > >Thanks, > >Matt Dralle Matt, Wasn't George & Becki Orndorff selling their RV6 recently? Also, Ed Wischmeyer of San Jose was selling his RV4. Good Luck, Ed Cole RV6A ecole(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: wiring
> AeroElectric Connection > Bob Nuckolls > 6936 Bainbridge Rd. > Wichita, KS 67226-1008 > 72770.552(at)compuserve.com > I called yesterday. The book is currently out of stock, but they expect more in a few weeks. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) N23ST - Reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Aileron Trims
> Well, I'm ready to order my Wing Kit. Before I do, I need to make a decision > about Aileron Trims. Is this a good idea. If so, is manual or electric the > best. Also, I plan to install a 2 axis autopilot. Are Airleron trims required > for using autopilots? Would appreciate any comments. Thanks in advance for > your help. > Ron, I ordered my wing kit with electric aileron trim. I opened it, looked at the plans, re-packaged it, and will sell it for $100 (OBO). Not worth the effort to me. I'll order the manual trim when I order the fuse kit. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) N23ST - Reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: <Terryg(at)sceptrecal.ccmail.compuserve.com>
Subject: "Fish Eyes" - Thanx!
Thanx to all of you for your response to my primer "fish eye" problem. Hopefully the only fish eyes I'll be seeing from now on will be on my poached salmon! Cheers... Terry in Calgary S/N 24414 "Horizontal Stabilizer" ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM>
Subject: Re: cockpit lights
> Another option is to pulse the LED on and off very quickly. By varying > the mark/space (on/off) ratio, you can vary the average brightness of > the LED. My electronics isn't up to it, but I think it should be easy > to design a circuit which uses a variable resistor (aka pot, > potentiometer, rheostat) to do this. To avoid visible flickering, > the minimum speed should be above 25Hz. Actually, above 60hz is better. Much less chance of a strobing effect. Better computer monitors can go to 75 or 80 Hz. It should be a pretty simple 555 timer circuit, with a power transistor to handle the current. -- "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs "Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com
Subject: Some accurate statistics on Spins in RV-4
Date: Mar 12, 1996
A few weeks back, there was a discussion of spins in RV's. One of the notes posted by Rolf Hankers indicated up to 15,000 ft/min descent rate based on 500 ft. loss per turn and 1.5 to 2 seconds per turn based on his RV-4 test solo. Joe Larson posted a note a few days later questioning the '15,000 feet/minute' as being too high a rate and wondering if this was a spiral and not a spin. I had posted some general info on some initial spin tests but I had not collected any real quantifiable performance numbers. My RV-4 is still in test flight mode and my Pitts is in maintance mode so I decided to to collect some real numbers to determine who was correct. The following numbers were collected in my RV-4 solo with 1/4 fuel. My plane has the Sensenich fixed pitch metal prop and O-320-E2D (150 HP). I did a total of six 10 turn spins to the left. I did 3 on Saturday and went back and did 4 or 5 more on Sunday. Starting altitude, 6,000 AGL. Finish altitude, 2,500 AGL Lost altitude is 3,500 ft. Turns 10 turns Recovery 1.5 turns Total turns then is 11.5 Time per turn 2.0 seconds Altitude loss per turn 300 Ft. This all happened in a little over 30 seconds from start of the rudder kick to straight and level. Spins were normal entry, power-off stall, full rudder at stall. The stick was kept full back and with neutral aileron for the duration of the spin (i.e. no aileron input). The airspeed indicator was setting on 0 (zero), I.E, too low to read. The G-meter was reading 1 G. My ROC only goes to +/- 2,000 FPM and it was pegged at -2,000. I timed the rotation rate on turns 4 thru 7 at 6.17 seconds. That works out to just a hair over 2.0 seconds per rotation. The altimeter showed about 300 ft. loss per rotation. That also correlates quite well with the 3,500 ft/11.5 turns = 304 ft per turn. There is also some altitude loss during recovery so the average loss per turn would be somewhat less than 300 ft./turn. So, in 6 seconds, you loose 900 ft. Therefore in 60 seconds you would loose 9,000 ft. It looks like the descent rate is 9,000 ft/min. Its quite a wild ride, that is descending at over 100 MPH straight down. So, the 2 seconds per turn that Rolph posted is quite close. The 500 ft. per turn loss appears to be way too high per my measurements. One thing I noticed is that at the end of the first half-turn, the aircraft is 'tucked' inverted about 15 to 10 degrees. The reason for this is that the plane still has some forward momentum (you stall at 45 mph or so) so after one half turn, the air is hitting the bottom side of the horizontal stabilizer and this pushes the tail back and pitches the plane over in what would be called a 'tucked' or negative down line in aerobatic terms. This may be a little frightning to someone not use to doing spins. At the end of the first turn, the nose is back up some as the forward airspeed is then pushing on the top of the HS. Also, it takes quite a while to get the spin stopped (1.5 turns or so). You have to hold the opposite rudder and simply wait. If someone gets confused, it could lead to problems if they put back in pro-spin rudder. So, what can be concluded from all of this? 1) The aircraft spins and recovers fine. 2) The descent rate is quite high and any ground impact in a spin would be a major problem. 3) The recovery time and consume quite a bit of altitude if the spin is fully developed. We have all heard of the theory of putting a plane into a spin to get down through some clouds if we were caught 'IFR on top' (but VFR rated). Yes, that could be done as the spin is a stable configuration. However, you would need a minimum of 1,000 feet celing in order to have much of a chance of recovering with some margin for error. Also, a spin can progress into a high speed spiral or dive if full elevator is not maintained. The high turn rate in clouds would probably give vertigo. 4) I think everyone should have spin training. This is even more of a reqirement if you plan to do any aerobatics. There are a lot of manuvers that can result in a spin of done improperly. If you have not been thru some spin training with an instructor, you will probably panic. I recall back in 1968 (yikes) when I was learning to fly in a Luscombe 8A and a stall turned into a spin. It scared the cr*p out of me. My instructor showed me the ropes on how to spin. That Luscome was a nice spinning aircraft. These older planes did not have 'wash out' in the wings and they would fall off into a spin very easy. All the modern trainers have the angle-of-attack washed out at the tips to keep the tips/ailerons flying. Therefore many pilots don't really know what a plane without washout will do. I think the RV wing is straignt (no twist or washout) so it is not as forgiving as your C152, C172, etc. If you have some training, then if you ever get into an unplanned spin you should be able to recover (and not panic). 5) Lastly, doing spins should be done with caution, especially anything over one or two turns. There was a good article in IAC Sport Aerobatics a few yrs back (I could not find the article last nite) that discussed how seven turns in a spin is a magic number. If the pilot is not conditioned, they will typically loose it above 7 turns. It recommended working up to any advanced spins 1/2 or 1 turn at a time. I can say I felt like a one armed paper hanger trying to do the spins, stay oriented, and count the number of turns and then collect some meaningfull data at the same time. Kind of like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time. I wanted to know how many turns I was doing and that means staying oriented and counting the rotations with visual contact outside the plane. Collecting the data from inside requires focusing on the instruments. I found I could really only collect one usefull piece of information at a time, like time the rate or measure the altitude lost per turn. So, it took a number of spins to collect the data and to get a couple of samples to verify it. 6) I would still like to get some power-on spin info to see what that does to the spin rate and descent rate. Well, I was just going to post a short note on the stats and here it a few pages already plugging up the internet. Herman -------------------------------------------------------- *NOTICE for internet mail*: Any ideas or thoughts expressed here are my own and are independent of my employer. Herman Dierks, Dept. E54S, AWSD, Austin, Texas mail: dierks(at)austin.ibm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: "Richard Chandler" <mauser(at)Claris.COM>
Subject: Engines
The guy down around Dallas who advertises the "Best" used Cessnas also has a business selling a wide range of Continental and Lycoming engines, either overhauled, remanufactured, or new, and they say they charge only $300 over the factory invoice. They have a web site at: http://www.mayatech.com/cessna/airpower.html Anyone have any opinions? -- "Wait a minute, you expect us innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church? We'll do it!!" -- Yakko Warner, Animaniacs "Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!" ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HowardRV(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Finish Kit
Finish Kit is on order and curious about the number and size of boxes to expect. Large, I know! Howard Kidwell howardrv(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino)
Subject: Re: rvator
Finally received it yesterday. I wasn't aware that Van had started a waiting list for the RV-8 empanage. Put my name on it today. Jim > Hello,i am not building a rv yet.But was wondering if anyone has recieved >the jan/feb issue of the rvator yet.Now back to lurking and gathering info. > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike >MacGregor > > ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MikeT(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Project Summary & New Member
Project summary for a new member on the 'list'. Mike Talley (miket(at)aol.com) WA7RQZ retired from Boeing after 36 years in Electrical and CAD on various commercial and military programs. Member of EAA Chapter 818. Live in Arlington, WA - yes Stoddard Hamilton is 10 minutes away but I decided on the RV after a demo ride at the factory last fall. As a former C-172 owner the speed of the RV got me! I attended the workshop in Feb. at Van's and brought home a tail kit for the RV-6. For any like me who haven't had much experience with sheet metal work I highly recommend the workshop. Am in the process of assembling the horiz stab skeleton. Decided to alodine and prime (PPG Ditzler 2 part epoxy) all parts and compiled a 'process spec' from PPG spec sheets to summarize the processes and stuff needed. Happy to share this is anyone is interested. While waiting to get started I got a 'boiler' wiring diagram, wire list and equipment list started. Also put the RV-6 instrument panel in CAD and created models for many instruments and avionics to use in "pin the instrument on the panel" study to start thinking about what I'll do when the time comes for that. If anyone is interested in any of this let me know. I have George's tapes for the tail but the new pre punched kit takes out a lot of the "fun" shown in the tapes. I fins that watching the tape as well as going over the words from Vans helps complete the picture as to what I need to do next. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Aileron Trims
>Well, I'm ready to order my Wing Kit. Before I do, I need to make a decision >about Aileron Trims. Is this a good idea. If so, is manual or electric the >best. Also, I plan to install a 2 axis autopilot. Are Airleron trims required >for using autopilots? Would appreciate any comments. Thanks in advance for >your help. > >Ron Caldwell >RV6A > > Most folks around here have gone with the manual trim..... But again some have chosen electric Each to his/her own. I believe one of the two is advisable. You do not however need these trims to install the Navaid autopilot which hooks directly to the control rod. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
> >Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut >is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three >times. Did I miss something? >B F Gibbons >RV-6 (first wing) > I ended up buying drilled bolts and castle for my bellcranks as they were not included. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Ross Mickey Phone: 541-342-1892 2300 Oakmont Way #205 Fax: 541-342-5492 Eugene, Oregon 97401 email: rmickey(at)ix.netcom.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
> Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut > is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three > times. Did I miss something? > B F Gibbons > RV-6 (first wing) I worried about this too but found out that the accepted practice (per AC41-3A and/or the MIL-Spec, I don't remember exactly where) says that you only need castle nuts/cotter pins if the bolt is intended to rotate in the hole. Since you snug the bolt against the spacers/angles/bearing then a fiber washer here is ok. Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Greg Bordelon <greg(at)brokersys.com>
Subject: New RVer
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Hi there rv-listers Just a quick intro here. My name is Greg Bordelon and by profession I'm = a network specialist for Amerada Hess Corp. For fun I fly airplanes. I've = recently spent 1200 hrs on a repair and restoration of a 77 Cessna 150. I have a = lot of fun with the plane and use it for cross country flying and romancing my girlf= riend. It just isn't fast enough! Anyhow, I'm looking forward to sharing my expe= riences with all of you. Last week I received my pre-punched RV6A empennage kit. After inventoryin= g the kit I too have the missing hinge brakets and it was noted as back ord= ered on the packing slip.......no big deal though, theres plenty of work ahead= . So presently the plan is to remove the carpet in the den (seperate den and = living area) erect the jig and start building. Girlfriend says she wants to help= and likes to fly with me so any ideas in this area would be beneificial to our rela= tionship. I've had the good fortune of meeting Rob Lee. For the past several months= I've been giving him some assistance with his project. We've become freinds, = what else would you call someone that paints your airplane and runs the paint = them forces him to sand so I can paint it again. Word of advice here guys and = gals, when painting or priming the prep work is of upmost importance.........ex= pect the worst and pray for the best. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Greg Bordelon greg(at)brokersys.com Houston Texas emmpanage peices & painting Rob Lee's 6A ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 11, 1996
From: NAEK31A(at)prodigy.com (MR KURT L KEILBACH)
Subject: landing gear mounts
I am about to put the wings on my 6a to fit the landing gear mounts. I've looked at the prints, read the manual, watched the tapes, and I can't figure out what to do with the pitot line. Does it get cut where the root rib meets the fuse wall, then a 90 degree fitting or is it supposed to remain one peice up to the panel. I have it mounted on the wing right now with the excess still rolled up and sitting on the spar. I'm exhausted, delerious. HELP! Thanks. Kurt Keilbach 6a Fuselage still in the jig...but not for long. naek31a(at)prodigy.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: Bob Skinner <BSkinner(at)ltec.net>
Subject: Re: Cowl Flaps
>Hi RV-List: >This is probably a stupid idea. Perhaps someone can explain why. On >the cowl flaps, I gather they adjust the egress of the air from the >cowl. Someone was concerned about the cowl blowing up like a balloon. >(Or at least fatiguing when the cowl flaps were closed). What my >question is; would it be better (or even work) to control the size of >the inlets where air comes into the cowl rather than where it comes >out? >Peter Peter: Not stupid at all. I have given some thought to this, as well. I thought that this would be a good place to use the Mac servos. However, I think you would need one servo per side. I was thinking of a hinged surface that matches the curvature of the top cowl inlets with the hinges being placed at the front of the cowl inlet. Couldn't figure out how to link both surfaces together, therfore, you would need two servos. I ruled this out as too expensive. A cable hook-up could probably be made but it would be cumbersome. I don't know of any factory airplanes doing this, they use cowl flaps. Probably something to note. I figured my time would be better spent trying to rig a solid and dependable cowl outlet flap. Bob Skinner RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RVator?
Everyone, I just received a "1996 February RVator Excerpt" in the mail today (3/12), describing RV-8 kitting progress and across the board kit price increases. Has anyone received the actual Rvator, or did I miss it? Rob. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Mlfred(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: dimmer switch
Hi all: I'm not sure how GM does their p/n, but here goes: The Box is labeled 1 #15954529, GR. 2.490, switch as. This baby has 4 male leads, sized for .187 push on connectors. 2 are power (1 for dimmer, 1 for dome), 2 outputs, 1 for inst lites, 1 for dome. This one is black, I think another is grey, but I don't have the p/n for that one. Check six! Mark ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 12, 1996
From: jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com (Michael McGee)
Subject: Re: Cowl Flap to prevent shock cooling?
>Has anybody mentioned the potential cowl flap benefit of reduced shock >cooling in a rapid decent? I like the idea of the automatic VW driven >thermostatic bi-metal device controling the flap (with CHT warning and an >override via cable if anything went wrong). Would the VW device be >responsive enough to prevent shock cooling? > >Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, H 519.746.9882 >B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com > > If you are using a temperature sensor to move or tell you when to move the cowl flap you would be waiting too long before getting a response. The shock cooling or temp rise would already be taking place. A better way might be to tie your cowl flap linkage in with changes in manifold pressure. Something like a spring loaded vacuum cylinder that would let the flaps open at say >20"MP. Of course settings and spring rates would have to be determined, but, this type of control action would prevent sharp temperature swings instead of follow them. A really slick way that Everet Hatch used on his rotary powered RV-4 (Power Sport) utilizes the exhaust energy to help enhance cooling. Building the exhaust pipe into an eductor similar to the old Cessna 310's and (I think) Beech Queen Airs. When you open the throttle, the exhaust energy creats a suction that pulls cooling air through the cowling. I think it mostly enhances the cooling for a tight cowling. Again, you would have to work out the details, but, this is another example of the engine's power setting controlling the cooling, not the temperature change or shocking temperature change of which the simple proportional thermostat knows no difference. Mike Mike McGee & Jackie Stiles, Vancouver, WA jmpcrftr(at)teleport.com RV-6 ..sn 23530.. (in the "plans" still) .. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
>Also, am I the only one who's surprised a drilled bolt and castle nut >is not used to hold the bellcrank on?? I checked part numbers three >times. Did I miss something? I too, wondered about that. Castle nuts are usually used if the bolt is subject to rotation, as all the bellcranks are. Howerver, I think this only applies if the nut is not tightened to a normal torque value. i.e.: if the necessary rotation is created by leaving the nut somewhat loose when no bearing is involved. If the nut is torqued to a normal spec (which it is in this case, because of the bearing) then a lock nut is okay. -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: Rvbildr(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: Project Summary & New Member
I'm very interested in any wiring diagrams, equipment lists or instrument panel layouts that you may be willing to share. Please e-mail me the details at rvbildr(at)aol.com Thanks. Mal ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MikeT(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 12, 1996
Subject: Re: rvator
Feb RVator has been rec'd. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: bcos(at)ix.netcom.com (William Costello )
Subject: Re: Some accurate statistics on Spins in RV-4
Hi Herman, I think I possibly represent the whole list when I say thanks for the detailed spin info. Cheez, I hope you didn't have ice cream and dill pickles before you did all those tests! Or else that you hadn't put in your upholstery yet. :) You imply that, like the Luscombe without any wing washout, the RV is easier to get into an inadvertant spin. Like on the top of a loop that goes south or in a roll or Cuban Eight. I would be interested if any of you other aerobatic types found yourselves getting into inadvertant spins. This is for long-range planning for my -6, since I had intended doing some mild aerobatics when I get it done. And, Herman, just thank God you're not a horse, cause your stomach would have rolled over so many times, you'd be dog food by now for sure! Bill Costello -- ___ _____________________________ \ \ _ _ / / \ /? \ / \ / Bill Costello Chicago \ X-*#####*******......./ N97WC (reserved) / o/\ \ \_\ \ RV-6 on left elev. \ \__\ \ bcos(at)ix.netcom.com / \____________________________\ ________________________________________________________________________________
From: rust47rg(at)one.net
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Engines
>The guy down around Dallas who advertises the "Best" used Cessnas also has a >business selling a wide range of Continental and Lycoming engines, either >overhauled, remanufactured, or new, and they say they charge only $300 over >the factory invoice. They have a web site at: > >http://www.mayatech.com/cessna/airpower.html > >Anyone have any opinions? > Van's is cheaper................check it out. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: John Darby <johnd@our-town.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted - Good RV...
Matt, I have an Rv6, 125 hours, that we might work a trade. I would like to build another, so some kind of trade for your engine, instr., plus cash to buy kit and incidentals. As for the perfect workmanship, I don't consider myself as perfect at anything. If you know Bob Brashear, he is very familar with my bird. I might even throw in a 78 MGB that I have restored, to clear my workshop for a new project. If interested, we can discuss details, my home ph is (817)965-3887. E-mail is johnd@our-town.com. John D the RV-6s makes more sense. I might be interested in buying something >ready to fly, but I would have to sell the stuff I have first (or trade!). >Any leads would be *most* apperciated! > >Thanks, > >Matt Dralle > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: "Greg D. Dungan (301) 342-4000x4467" <DunganGD%AM4(at)MR.NAWCAD.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: RE: COWL FLAPS
Autoforwarded: false Importance: normal Ua-Content-Id: 11A36A2E2300 Hop-Count: 1 The Russian Sukoi SU-26 and SU-29 unlimited competition aerobatic aircraft use a set of louvers in the air intake to regulate the amount of cooling air in a manner similar to what you suggest. And these aircraft use the Vedenyev M14P Radial engine. Seems to me that cowl flaps would be easier on a radial but perhaps the louver set up performs better. Point is, what you suggest has been done and seems to work well. Greg Dungan RV-4 SerNo. 3109 (Starting Empenage) >>Hi RV-List: >>This is probably a stupid idea. Perhaps someone can explain why. On >>the cowl flaps, I gather they adjust the egress of the air from the >>cowl. Someone was concerned about the cowl blowing up like a balloon. >>(Or at least fatiguing when the cowl flaps were closed). What my >>question is; would it be better (or even work) to control the size of >>the inlets where air comes into the cowl rather than where it comes >>out? >>Peter >Peter: Not stupid at all. I have given some thought to this, as well. I >thought that this would be a good place to use the Mac servos. However, I >think you would need one servo per side. I was thinking of a hinged surface >that matches the curvature of the top cowl inlets with the hinges being >placed at the front of the cowl inlet. Couldn't figure out how to link both >surfaces together, therfore, you would need two servos. I ruled this out as >too expensive. A cable hook-up could probably be made but it would be >cumbersome. I don't know of any factory airplanes doing this, they use cowl >flaps. Probably something to note. I figured my time would be better spent >trying to rig a solid and dependable cowl outlet flap. Bob Skinner RV6 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: Kevin Shelton <k.j.shelton(at)larc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Project Summary & New Member
>I'm very interested in any wiring diagrams, equipment lists or instrument >panel layouts that you may be willing to share. Please e-mail me the details >at rvbildr(at)aol.com >Thanks. Mal > > > I am interested also. Are your cad drawings in ACAD format or possibly "dxf" format? Anything you are willing to share is much appreciated. I know how long it takes to generate good cad drawings. Thanks Kevin Kevin Shelton Lockheed Martin Engineering & Science Co. NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton VA (804) 864-44470 ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: "Johnson, Steve" <spjohnson(at)msmail.mmmg.com>
Subject: Engines
>The guy down around Dallas who advertises the "Best" used Cessnas also has a >business selling a wide range of Continental and Lycoming engines, either >overhauled, remanufactured, or new, and they say they charge only $300 over >the factory invoice. They have a web site at: > >http://www.mayatech.com/cessna/airpower.html > >Anyone have any opinions? > The rumors are that Van's will soon have Lycomings with electronic ignition. Check out the latest RVator for the improvements offered with electronic ignition and the procedure required to install one yourself. I think anyone looking for a new engine at a great price should wait to see how this shakes out unless they need the engine right now. Well, you asked for opinions :-). Steve Johnson Waiting for the -8 (ordered RV-6 empennage videos Monday to study) spjohnson(at)mmm.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Primer "Fish Eyes"
>I've used two primers both with very good results. I use a DeVelbiss >touch up gun, Scotch-brite the surfaces, MEK to clean. > - PGM DP-40 comes in white, green both excellent > - Sherman Williams Acid - Etch primer (green) excellent Has anyone used the SW primer as a base coat for finish paint? I've used it a lot for priming non-finish paint items, but I'm getting ready to start painting the interior and I was wondering how well it works under a finish coat. This stuff adheres like crazy, I would assume the finish coat would be nice. Do you reccomend a SW finish paint, or are there products from other manufacturers that work well? What type of finish paint and colors? Will white or light grey cover the green primer well? Thanks, Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
From: walsh(at)cpeedy.ENET.dec.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: close to edge rivets...
I've got about 15 rivets in my HS and VS which are close to the flange strips along each rear spar. I can't squeeze these rivets and I'm tired of looking at the clecos sticking out of the otherwise finsihed assemblies. Does anybody have any tips on squeezing rivets close to an edge? I tried one last night and I can get the squeezer on the head but as I squeeze it, the mushroom spreads beyond the die and I end up hunching it over. If my die set were 1/8" larger in diameter, I think I could get them. thanks in advance John ( who's thinking about those .020 elevator skins ) ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: scottg(at)villagenet.com (scott gesele)
Subject: Re: landing gear mounts
>I am about to put the wings on my 6a to fit the landing gear mounts. >I've looked at the prints, read the manual, watched the tapes, and I >can't figure out what to do with the pitot line. Does it get cut >where the root rib meets the fuse wall, then a 90 degree fitting or >is it supposed to remain one peice up to the panel. I have it mounted >on the wing right now with the excess still rolled up and sitting on >the spar. I'm exhausted, delerious. HELP! Thanks. > >Kurt Keilbach 6a >Fuselage still in the jig...but not for long. >naek31a(at)prodigy.com > > While putting the gear mounts on my -6A, I didn't worry about the pitot line. Right now, I have fuse sitting on the gear with the left wing on (two car garage). The right wing has already been rigged. The wing/fuse intersection is a rather busy place. Fuel, vent, brake, pitot lines along with wiring. IMHO the pitot line is one of the least important runs, and therefore the last one located. I used 90 deg. bulkhead fittings on the fuse for fuel, vent and brake lines. This was instead of Van's grommets. This makes a really neat installation. I put vibration loops in the fuel and vent lines to help avoid a fatigue failure in the future. My recommendation would be to wait until the fuel and vent lines are located and then install the pitot line with a bulkhead fitting. Right now just keep the extra tubing coiled up. I plan on using plastic tubing (nyloseal) from the bulkhead fitting up to the A/S. There is an adapter to go from flared to nyloseal. Hope this helps, -Scott N506RV ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "B F Gibbons" <bfgibbons(at)intellinet.com>
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
> I worried about this too but found out that the accepted practice (per > AC41-3A and/or the MIL-Spec, I don't remember exactly where) says that > you only need castle nuts/cotter pins if the bolt is intended to rotate > in the hole. Since you snug the bolt against the spacers/angles/bearing > then a fiber washer here is ok. > > Randall Henderson > RV-6 > That makes sense, thanks. B F Gibbons RV-6 (first wing) N23ST - Reserved ________________________________________________________________________________
From: EBundy2620(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: wiring
> Hope this has been helpful and adds to the information I've supplied in >the electrical schematic that I've sent out to peple on the RVlist. Thanks Fred. The schematic and this info have been most helpful to us "electronically challenged" individuals. >Fred Stucklen RV-6A N925RV (652 Hrs in 1.5 Years, Can't put it >away!) !!!!!! Wow! 5RV is certainly no hangar queen. Can't wait to get mine done! -- Ed Bundy ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <72770.552(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Comments on Wiring
>>From: Dan Boudro > INTERNET:dboudro(at)nmia.com >>Reply to: Re: RV-List: wiring >> >> >>I used the PB CB's with switches sold by Van. I mounted them all in a row >>then used a 1/8" piece of AL 2024-T4 out of my scrap bucket as a buss bar >>connecting all the lower screws together. Aluminum bus bars have been tried in the certified ships . . . MOST were okay but there's a much stronger tendency for dissimilar metal reaction between breaker terminals and aluminum as opposed to copper or brass . . . If it's tinned or solder plated, so much the better. Check hobby shops for little metal shapes displays by KB Engineering, at least I think that's the name. They have tubes and bins of aluminum and brass tubing and some sheet/bar stock. One of my readers found a bar that was about .040 thick by 1/2" wide and 6" long. You can drill holes at appropriate intervals to match your breaker spacing. You can also extend for rows of breakers by joining strips (later). After all the metal work is done, lay the strip on electric burner of a stove or warm it up with a torch and litterally coat the critter all over with electronic solder. The last step is to warm it up while holding with pliers and wipe it off with a thick rag. You want to leave the thinest possible coat of solder to protect the brass. Now, if you neet to extend with two or more bars, temporarily bolt two coated bars together with a screw (same screw hole that will eventually connect to a breaker), warm it up again and allow solder to run into the common surface between the two bars. This technique will produce a bus bar of any desired length with good electrical properties and excellent electro-chemical properties as well. >>Left it a little long so I could >>attach the "hot" connection from the master relay. All power to devices >>gets wired to the top terminals of the CB's. You can stick about 4 - 5(max) >>connectors on one terminal but if you need more you can piggy back more >>than one wire on a terminal connector (stick several wires in before you >>squeeze). Not real sure what's being described here. Just one caveat . . . when you use single screws and/or terminals to attach multiple conductors, consider that the combination is single point of failure for all critters sharing the connection. I'm not suggesting that it's always bad to do this . . just think about and fully understand what you're doing . . . Regards, Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: ecole(at)ix.netcom.com (EDWARD COLE )
Subject: Terra Avionics
Fellow Builders, Food for thought------ I have been communicationg with an employee of Terra Corp. asking him about the various offerings his company had. While asking about installation manuals and factory phone support, which are both available, he said that you can order the trays and install kits long before you order the radios. Then when ordering the radios, they will discount the price of the trays and install kits. This might help you complete your panel before you lay out additional cash for radios that will be sitting around until your ready to fly. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: Peter Hanna <peterh(at)rdmcorp.com>
Subject: Re: Cowl Flaps
>Hi RV-List: >This is probably a stupid idea. Perhaps someone can explain why. On >the cowl flaps, I gather they adjust the egress of the air from the >cowl. Someone was concerned about the cowl blowing up like a balloon. >(Or at least fatiguing when the cowl flaps were closed). What my >question is; would it be better (or even work) to control the size of >the inlets where air comes into the cowl rather than where it comes >out? >Peter >__________________________________________ > Just some thoughts on reasons for outlet control of cooling air flow rather than inlet. Inlet control could in theory be equally effective but some advantages of outlet control that occur to me are: 1.Easily mechanically integrated with a thermostatic control as it would be in the warmed airflow. 2.Closer to cockpit for connections, indicators, override mechanism, etc. 3.Pulsating ram air behind prop might make support structure and control more difficult. I assume pulsations are buffered at teh outlet by the passage thru the engine baffles and cowl area. 4.One flap at outlet would suffice while two would be required at inlets (on conventional cowls) and they would have to be perfectly synchronized. 5. Inlet control could cause flow pattern interference in the upper plenum and thru the engine which might deprive, for example, one cylinder of air flow. I assume current cowl inlet, baffle and plenum design equalize cooling and minimize friction/aerodynamic drag so we should hesitate to tamper with this area. Outlet seems to be the point to simply restrict total flow and do the job in an elegant manner. 6. Outlet flap could be fixed to the fuselage rather than to cowling for better support, less interference with cowl removal, reliability, etc. Question: Would the cowling "blowing up like a balloon" really be a problem? Would even completely closing off all exit air cause a significant rise in inside/outside skin differential pressure from ram air. I have no experience with cowl flap design but I assumed that they only restrict the mass of air flow up to reduce cooling in proportion to the power/heat being produced. Would this increase the pressure differential with low outside pressure areas (due to the dynamics of air flow outside) to a critical level and over stress portions of the cowl? Good question for John Rontz. Is it Peter Garrision who did the recent Skunk Works article in Sport Aviation?. I suspect the real stress problems and cracking, etc., with cowls are more related to engine vibration and inertial loads. Peter Hanna Peter Hanna, 2-425 Kingscourt, Waterloo, Ont., Canada, N2K3R4, H 519.746.9882 B 519 746 8483 X224, Business email: peterh(at)rdmcorp.com ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "Michael C. Gamble" <mgamble(at)chiba.netxn.com>
Subject: Primer "Fish Eyes"
Date: Mar 13, 1996
------ =_NextPart_000_01BB10BD.3B77F040 Just to add my two cents worth, in automotive uses fish eyes are usualy caused by having Silcon on the surface. Mick ---------- From: Dan Boudro[SMTP:nmia.com!dboudro(at)matronics.com] Sent: Monday, March 11, 1996 7:11 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Primer "Fish Eyes" I've used two primers both with very good results. I use a DeVelbiss touch up gun, Scotch-brite the surfaces, MEK to clean. - PGM DP-40 comes in white, green both excellent - Sherman Williams Acid - Etch primer (green) excellent Fish Eyes haven't been a problem. Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: Re: close to edge rivets...
> Does anybody have any tips on squeezing rivets close to an edge? Dig up a larger diameter squeezer die. Grind an edge flat if necessary OR Find a bucking bar that will fit in there tight and buck the thing OR Grind the edge off your squeezer so it can fit in tighter. 1/8" might be a bit much though. OR Get a "close quarters" squeezer yoke (the one with a narrow tapered top side and no hole). More $$, but I guarantee this won't be the only time you use it Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: HowardRV(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Re: Exploded drawings of Bolts/washers/nuts
Good work! Be sure and check to see what bearing goes in the Bellcrank. If it is a VA-146, then 5702-95-30 washers must go next to the bearing between the spacer. Howard Kidwell howardrv(at)aol.com ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: Curt Reimer <Curt_Reimer(at)MBnet.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: left elevator
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Stuart Fraley wrote: > > >I'd use just .016 for the ribs. May as well save a couple of grams where > >you can. I mounted my ribs flanges-in and used pop rivets. You could also > >mount them flanges-out and used AN rivets, if you can get in there. > > If you mount them flange-out, how do you attach the trim tab control horn? Oops - I guess you have to mount that one flange-in. Sorry. I just mounted them all flange-in since you don't have enough room to buck rivets in there anyway. Curt ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: jcimino(at)jcimino.microserve.com (Jim Cimino)
Subject: Re: Terra Avionics
Just for further input. I had some Terra avionics in my Cessna 172. There were few problems with them, and there company support was outstanding. >Fellow Builders, >Food for thought------ > >I have been communicationg with an employee of Terra Corp. asking him >about the various offerings his company had. While asking about >installation manuals and factory phone support, which are both >available, he said that you can order the trays and install kits long >before you order the radios. Then when ordering the radios, they will >discount the price of the trays and install kits. This might help you >complete your panel before you lay out additional cash for radios that >will be sitting around until your ready to fly. > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: randall(at)edt.com (Randall Henderson)
Subject: electric flap installation
I'm installing my RV-6 electric flap actuator bearing blocks and can't find anywhere on the plans or instructions that shows the orientation of the center bearing block. In the vertical dimension the hole thru the block is closer to one side than the other and I can't for the life of me see which way is supposed to be down. If I could find the vertical dimensions for the placement of the outer bearing blocks anywhere this would pretty much determine which way the center block goes, but I can't find those either. Also the instructions are somewhat ambiguous as to the horizontal orientation -- they say the "long side" of the block should be aft, unlike the manual flaps. But on the manual flaps, the "long side" appears to be aft as well. Maybe I just don't know what is meant by "long side". Here's the way I THINK it goes. (It would sure be nice if there was just a simple drawing like this in the instructions or plans) +---------------+ | | | -- | <-- Fwd | / \ | | \ / | | -- | seat floor +---------------+ ---------------- baggage compartment floor ---------------------------------------------------- +---- | | F-605 | Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________________________________________________________
From: "JIM MIGNANO" <MIGNANOJ(at)evergreen.hillsborouh.k12.or.us>
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Cowling Canards
Has anyone ever thought about putting stabilizing canards onto the cowling of an RV? ________________________________________________________________________________
From: OrndorffG(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Re: landing gear mounts
you can cut the pitot tube off at the wing leaving enoung to work with . Then you can connect it to some plastic tube up to the panel with some rubber hose and hose clamps....George Orndorff ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Cowl Flaps
REGARDING Cowl Flaps Folks, I have been listening for the past couple of days and I think you are starting to miss an important point. (I'll get to the Russian Sukoi in a moment). The design intent of air cooling is to provide ADEQUATE cooling and to PREVENT HOT SPOTS (i.e. cylinders). Serious efforts on INTERNAL baffling are usually directed to get the air to flow in a manner to cool everything EQUALLY. To oversimplify, you would like LAMINAR flow through the compartment. It is never perfect - but that is the usual intent. By throttling, restricting or in some manner controlling air-flow in the FRONT (the "in" port) you are introducing unwanted turbulence with unpredictable flow paths. As you open or close the port(s) you will further vary or change the air path. Uneven cooling will be a nightmare to solve. By throttling the EXIT FLOW you are controlling the mass flow but you are not creating any more turbulence than that which exists from the current baffling design. Now the Sukoi thing. As stated, that engine is a radial. There is no comparison to an opposed four cylinder. Both designs have their own separate and distinct cooling problems. For example, note the the shutter placement on the Sukoi. They are perfectly distributed around the ENTIRE FACE of the engine and the radial cylinders are behind. That arrangement will allow perfect cooling of ALL CYLINDERS. Also, All cylinders are on the same PLANE and therefore get the same equal flow of air. An opposed 4 cylinder has an entirely different cooling problem. You have leading/trailing cylinders (some get cold air others have heated air), a tight cowling and internal baffling contortions. Work on the EXIT port - your life will be much simpler! I also think the manifold pressure idea is flawed and that will be a subject of my next note. -Elon -Elon ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MikeT(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Diagrams & Process Specs
For those of you who asked about the wiring diagram and process spec stuff I have here's the scoop - I'd be happy to share what I have however, I don't know what the process would be to share via e-mail or the rv-list plus there are MANY MANY files. I did a quick count of the diagrams and found 34 files all around 35 to 45 K each. The diagrams are not yet finalized but cover all of the systems I think I'll have and are arranged and numbered by ATA chapter (I haven't done one yet for the new Light Speed ignition system - I called them and got their descriptive literature and system specs). The diagrams are done in Canvas (Mac) and the wire and equipment lists are in Excel (Mac). The process specs cover cleaning, alodining (sp?) and priming using PPG materials and bonding (electrical) and grounding. These are in Excel and Canvas for the pictures. Both of these applications are available for the DOS/Win world as well. Canvas can save in other formats such as CGM, DXF, EPSF, IGES. PICT and PICT 1 among others. I recently installed AutoCAD LT on my PC and plan to use that more in the future especially for any parts I need to design for my RV - already did mounting brackets for the fin tip to install the VOR antenna. For those who would like any of this let me know what process would work the best to share it with you. I have both an iomega Zip drive and a 44 meg Syquest drive that could be used to put the data on removable hard drive medium if that would help. I could mail copies of the data if you want to help pay for all of the paper and postage but to really use it I think you'd want it in digital form. P.S. I was working on riveting the horiz stab skeleton together this am until I found that I needed some more tools - offset and longer rivet sets - Avery will soon have all of my $$. Plus I am waiting for the hinge brackets along with some of you. Per Van's last week they expect these in 3/14 or 3/15. ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: Robert Acker <75104.3077(at)compuserve.com>
Subject: RVator?
>> Rob -- price increases? How much have all of the kits gone up by? Any info that you can pass along would be very much appreciated...regards...<< >From the Rvator excerpt: RV-3 RV-4 RV-6 RV-6A Empennage: 690 900 1095 1095 Wing: 2095 3630 3700 3700 Fuselage: 2275 2600 3025 3500 Finish: 2665 3015 3450 3650 Totals: 7765 10,190 11,320 11,995 RV-4 has pre-punched wing skins, 6/6A adds pre-punched tail skins, add another $125 for 6/6A sliding canopy. Also, the 4/6/6A include pre-tapered spar strips and pre-drilled lightening holes. For people like me who are not building yet, most of this is good news. Or so I thought until I read a little teaser: THE FUTURE - This is just the start. You ain't seen nothin' yet. So what's that mean, should I order now or wait further ????!!!!!! Darn... Regards, Rob. ________________________________________________________________________________
From: MikeT(at)aol.com
Date: Mar 13, 1996
Subject: Instrument Panel Layouts
Oops - I forgot to include info on the panel layout stuff in the earlier message. All files are in Canvas (Mac) and include the panel outline as well as lots of instruments including Vision, RMI and some neat small square engine instruments made by SigmaTek and used on Mooneys. Also some avionics but they are simple rectangles. I pinned the panel layout to a section of ceiling tile and played pin the instruments to the panel then created some files in the configurations of interest. This could be used in paper form only without having the files. The largest size I can print is legal so the panel layout is in 5 sections that I taped together - oh to have a large plotter. Same comments regarding sharing these as in the previous message. While I'm thinking about it - when I primed the horiz stab parts yesterday I tried one of those aerosol spray outfits from the hardware store. It has an aerosol spray head that screws onto a 6 oz glass container. The aerosol says it is enough to spray 16 oz. For the small amounts I'm doing now it worked great. I got a Hobby 1 forced air respirator from Acft Spruce - it is essential when working with the nasty epoxy primers and works great! ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: Dan Boudro <dboudro(at)nmia.com>
Subject: Re: Terra Avionics
BTW - I ordered my avionics from Van's; radio,transponder(both King but he sells Terra also), VOX. Everything came prewired!!! including headset jacks. All I had to do was install, plug in, turn on and I was listening to approach. The only minor problem was the wire to the passanger jacks was to short (RV-4) but in 10 min. I had that fixed. Dan Boudro RV-4 N9167Z ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Stabilizing canard
REGARDING Stabilizing canard The RV's already have a stabilizing canard! Its called the horizontal stabilizer (i.e. your tail)! Canards are "generally" used when the wing is in the back and there is no tail. -Elon ________________________________________________________________________________
Date: Mar 13, 1996
From: "Elon Ormsby" <Elon.Ormsby(at)quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Cowl Flaps


March 06, 1996 - March 13, 1996

RV-Archive.digest.vol-be